Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v3 [Archive] - Page 2

arithmancer

January 8th, 2006, 10:04 pm

Sorry, but could you clarify?

Thanks.

If you did not want a full-blown explanation of the plot of HBP, you ought to have phrased your question more specifically...here goes!

Snape takes the Unbreakable Vow. Snape is only obligated to kill Dumbledore or die under specific circumstances specified by Narcissa. If it is necessary (given Narcissa's interests, necessary for the protection of Draco...) or if Draco seems to fail at the task. Snape's twitch (IMO) is explained because his first instinct on hearing the third clause is to pull out, since he does not want to kill Dumbledore. But then he saw the 'out' in the wording, and went through with the Vow. BTW, if you think I'm being excessively legalistic in my interpretation of the Vow-how else would you explain that Snape was able to not take action when Draco tried the necklace and poison murders? I say it is because while these attempts were failures, they were very private/secret ones...Draco did not 'seem to fail' in the eyes of the world.

So, he's just committed himself to kill Dumbledore if Draco should seem to fail in his own attempts. Snape discusses his problem with Dumbledore and they come up with a solution. Dumbledore is confident Draco is no murderer and will never be able to go through with it. Snape's role in this will be to attempt to worm out of Draco details of Draco's plan, so that the confrontation of Draco with Dumbledore can indeed take place in secret. Dumbledore will then help Draco to see he does not want to kill, and he will offer Draco 'asylum', by hiding him and his family from Voldemort. We have exactly zero canon of this conversation, granted. I am deducing that it happened, and a rough outline of the substance of that discussion in retrospect from what Dumbledore says to Draco on the Tower. He indicates he has known all along Draco is trying to kill him, and he seems to have a plan worked out to hide Draco (the bit about how V. cannot kill Draco if he is already dead...)

OK, here's where things head south. Dumbledore and Snape believe that there is no way to bring Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Harry tells Dumbledore about Draco's activities in the Room of Requirements, but Dumbledore, caught up in the Horcrux hunt, brushes this aside. If he had investigated Harry's story instead of going to the Cave that particular night, if Draco did not have the talent for Occlumency, or if Draco had been more trusting of Snape, none of this would have happened IMO.

When Dumbledore returns to Hogwarts from the cave, he is badly weakened. As a consequence his decision to hide Harry renders him defenseless. However, having no better option available to him, Dumbledore forges on gamely with his plan. (He clearly has Draco's number, IMO, I am confident he needed only a few more moments to clinch the deal.) Now, Greyback and three DEs show up on the Tower. The opportunity to remove Draco before he can 'seem to fail' is all but lost. Having just talked Draco out of murder, Dumbledore really does not want to be killed by him after all. (He's protective of all his students.) The DEs start to put pressure on Draco, when the door opens, and Snape walks in.

What (assuming he's on the 'good side') should Snape do now? He can't hope to save Dumbledore. Under the precise set of circumstances he finds on the Tower, the sacrifice would be meaningless. No more than a noble gesture. Not because Snape is weak. If he were free to fight, he could make a difference. The Vow, remember? As he walks in, he is told by another DE that there is a problem, Draco 'doesn't seem able'. There is no chance that Snape's self-sacrifice at this moment would save Dumbledore's life. Now, I believe Dumbledore sees this as well, in fact, he may know better than Snape just how true that is, because he may know more than he told Harry about the effects of the green potion. Snape can see something is wrong, but he may not know exactly what. Hence, the pleading. My interpretation, please don't sacrifice yourself, Severus, it is no use. Not that Dumbledore could say so under the circumstances. If he has decided to sacrifice himself as the least of all evils, he's going to wring every last ounce of advantage out of it and not blow Snape's cover. The text specifies that when Dumbledore first addresses Snape, Snape approaches closer and gazes at Dumbledore. This suggests Snape may have used Legilimency to see what Dumbledore wanted. At any rate, Dumbledore repeats his plea, and Snape acts.

Snape's risk in taking the UV is certainly a contributing factor leading to the scene on the tower, so I agree Snape has some responsibility for the consequences. But it was an honest mistake. He's not a murderer in my eyes. He is not the only responsible party. Draco set up the cirsumstances which made Snape's action the best possible option for the 'good guys'. He too bears some responsibility, mitigated by the fact that by the end, Draco was acting under duress. Dumbledore also IMO bears some responsibility. Like Snape, he made a mistake. His was not to listen to Harry about Draco's success in the Room of Requirements. And of course, Voldemort has the most to answer for here. It is he who recruited Draco for the assassination, he who threatened Draco's family, and he who ordered the Death Eaters to cooperate with Draco's plan. He's the only one I would call a cold-blooded murderer in the whole affair.

But IMO Dumbledore and Snape had a good deal of just plain lousy bad luck. If Draco had fixed the darned cabinet a day earlier, or a few days later, things could have turned out just as Dumbledore planned, even with the Death Eaters. Dumbledore would have been faced with Draco healthy and without Harry to worry about. The plan to save Draco and Narcissa from Voldemort could have worked much more easily under those circumstances.

Chief_Apache

January 8th, 2006, 10:48 pm

Appletyme

January 8th, 2006, 11:42 pm

Snape has the worst job in history!

If he is Good- He has to convincingly fake the murder of his closest friend/person he admires most in the world and face certain death from the Order; should Voldemort find out he betrayed him he will have a cadre of Death Eaters and the big bad himself after him.

If he is Bad- He will find no mercy from the Order and I imagine part of Harry's training to find the Horcruxes/defeat Voldemort and all evil, he will research potions or someway to specifically GET Snape, especially for hearing the prophecy. Harry realized that he needs to get the advantage over Snape and I imagine he will indeed find out something to pierce Snape's defenses...

I agree. If Snape vowed to euthanize Dumbledore, there is no proof that can clear Snape's name. There is a guesswork theory that Dumbledore left behind a clue to clear Snape's name. Until then, Harry and the Order will not "come around" without concrete evidence that Snape's good. Because Snape's not very liked, some of the Order may never accept his merciful actions. However, if Snape's a full fledge Death Eater, I believe Lupin will kill him, it'd be fitting; because, Harry needs to find the Horcruxes and focus on murdering Voldemort. Double-espionage is a suicide mission, Snape's

Tarragon

January 9th, 2006, 12:15 am

If he is Good- He has to convincingly fake the murder of his closest friend/person he admires most in the world and face certain death from the Order; should Voldemort find out he betrayed him he will have a cadre of Death Eaters and the big bad himself after him.

Dumbledore was not Snape's "closest friend," he was his patron. Dumbledore vouched for Snape having changed his ways, saving him from a life sentence in Azkaban prison for Dark activity.

Now I speculate that a stipulation of Dumbledore keeping Snape from being thrown to the Dementors was that Severus would come to teach at the school under Dumbledore's watch. This makes the most sense to me as Snape is a very talented wizard and could have gotten a better job, probably one that was better suited to him.

While Snape is good at Potions, we know he preferred the Defense Against the Dark Arts, but rather than leaving in search of a different job as most people, especially people like Snape, would when Dumbledore refused to allow him to teach his preferred subject, he stayed on and taught Potions as Dumbledore "suggested" (or more like commanded). This leads me to believe he was obligated to stay and teach whatever subject Dumbledore chose to give him.

Also, Snape despises children. It would not make much sense for him to enter willingly into a job where he not only had to teach the little demons, but live under the same roof with hundreds of them. Unless, of course, he was required to under an agreement to become a professor made with Dumbledore.

And Snape strikes me as the type of person who never really had friends, only allies. This fits in with the apparent sociopathic behaviour we have seen him exhibit in the past six books. He also is a bit of a sadist, also, so I cannot say I would be shocked if we found out that he had no friends, as no one really wants to befriend a person like that. Now, I am not saying that those two personality defects make Snape evil, as not every sociopath is a criminal, and sadism, while immoral, does not necessarily make a person evil either.

I also do not know what would lead you to believe Snape admires Dumbledore. I think Snape has a grudging respect for Dumbledore because he trusted him when no one else would and he gave him a second chance. But that is not even close to admiration. It is quite obvious that Snape dislikes Dumbledore's way of doing things much of the time and Dumbledore seems to get on Snape's nerves (though then again, with Snape it can be rather difficult to tell).

frizbog

January 9th, 2006, 12:48 am

This is not proof, of course, but J.K.Rowling did wish him a happy birthday today on her website....something she did not do for Voldemort on Dec. 31 (or any of the other Death Eaters to my knowledge)

marcko90000

January 9th, 2006, 1:30 am

Putting two and two together, it's reasonable to conclude that by the time of Dumbledore's funeral, Greyback still did not suspect that Lupin was spying on him, or Lupin would have been dead.That is reasonable. So when Snape accidently "let it slip" in Prisoner of Azkaban that Lupin was a werewolf, we have to assume that this word didn't reach any of the Death Eaters. Well, it's workable.
Since Snape and Greyback were both working for Voldemort, Snape could have gotten that information to Greyback with extreme ease if he were truly evil.
Interesting thoughts.

Blood_River

January 9th, 2006, 3:04 am

But Lupin isn't specifically spying on Greyback; he's keeping tabs on werewolf sentiments in general. He's more like Mudungus -- reporting the general attitude of a rejected sub-culture -- and Snape may not know that's what he's doing (although, I'd think it'd be an obvious guess).

Oh, IMO, Snape's attitude toward Dumbledore does seem to be admiration, albeit expressed in his own, subdued way. I can't think of specific examples, but that's always the impression I got.

silver ink pot

January 9th, 2006, 3:57 am

JKR just wished Snape Happy Birthday on her website! She's never wished any of the other Death Eaters Happy Birthday - only Draco last year, and he hasn't had his birthday yet this year.

Is this a clue? I think so, anyway. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/sip44/Snape-birthday2006complete.jpg

marcko90000

January 9th, 2006, 4:50 am

JKR just wished Snape Happy Birthday on her website! She's never wished any of the other Death Eaters Happy Birthday - only Draco last year, and he hasn't had his birthday yet this year.
Is this a clue? I think so, anyway.
Probably a clue that it is going to be Snape's last birthday, and that he should enjoy it. Probably means the Order is going to murder him. :evil:

Chief_Apache

January 9th, 2006, 6:47 am

Well, if somebody vouched for me so I wouldn't have to stay in Azkaban...

Also, do you remember when Umbridge has Harry in her office and Snape tells Dumbledore Harry's plight and his plan to rescue Sirius from the Department of Mysteries? If he didn't do it out of concern for Harry, he might have felt that Dumbledore would want to know...kind of seems like respect, keeping him in the loop like that...

Awiana

January 9th, 2006, 10:40 am

I don't think that Snape knew that Harry was a Parselmouth at all you can tell by the shock in Snape's (brilliantly played by Alan Rickman ) face and i do not think he was acting. I don't see how he could know the only people who knew he was talking to the Snake in the zoo where the Dursleys. I don't go for a theory that say maybe someone was there from the wizarding world at the time and heard him although it could have happen i doubt it to be true.

The reason i see for the Snape spell is just as simple as if Mcgonagal told Harry to produce a lion from his wand, as head of house of Slytherin and Draco one of his students to produce there symbol of house was just a clever thing to do, to show that they are proud of there house if you are understanding me.

I agree, I don’t know how Snape could have known that Harry was a Parselmouth since no one knew that at that point. And I agree that the reason for using that particular spell was actually quite simple: snake is the symbol of the Slytherin house, and Snape and Draco are both proud of their house.

Oh, IMO, Snape's attitude toward Dumbledore does seem to be admiration, albeit expressed in his own, subdued way. I can't think of specific examples, but that's always the impression I got.
That’s definitely the impression I got as well. Snape isn’t really the sort of person who would have, or even want to have, lots of friends, but he’s not totally antisocial either. I do think there are some people who he respects, admires and even likes, and Dumbledore is definitely one of them. I think he respects many of the staff members and gets along just fine with them, but it’s Dumbledore who he respects and admires the most.

marcko90000

January 9th, 2006, 10:54 am

I also do not know what would lead you to believe Snape admires Dumbledore. I think Snape has a grudging respect for Dumbledore because he trusted him when no one else would and he gave him a second chance. But that is not even close to admiration. It is quite obvious that Snape dislikes Dumbledore's way of doing things much of the time and Dumbledore seems to get on Snape's nerves (though then again, with Snape it can be rather difficult to tell).

Personally I feel that there were times when Snape was losing trust in Dumbledore. Sirius' return and Dumbledore's belief in Sirius' innocence and Dumbledore's ultimate help in Sirius' escape and protection I think was more than enough than Snape could stand. We have the quote:

’I suppose he’s told you the same fairy tale he’s planted in Potter’s mind?’ spat Snape. “Something about a rat and Peter Pettigrew being alive –‘
'That, indeed, is Black’s story,’ said Dumbledore, surveying Snape closely through his half-moon spectacles.
‘And does my evidence count for nothing?’ snarled Snape. 'Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking Shack, nor did I see any sign of him in the grounds.’
‘That is because you were knocked out, Professor!’ said Hermione earnestly. ‘You didn’t arrive in time to hear –‘
'Miss Granger, HOLD YOUR TONGUE!’
‘Now Snape,’ said Fudge, startled, ‘the young lady is disturbed in her mind, we must make allowances –‘
‘I would like to speak to Harry and Hermione alone.’ Said Dumbledore abruptly. ‘Cornelius, Severus, Poppy – please leave us.’
‘Headmaster!’ spluttered Madam Pomfrey. ‘They need treatment, they need rest –‘
This cannot wait.’ Said Dumbledore. ‘I must insist.’ skipping slightly ahead…
’You surely don’t believe a word of Black’s story?’ Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore’s face.
`I wish to speak to Harry and Hermione alone,’ Dumbledore repeated.
Snape took a step towards Dumbledore.
‘Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of six-teen,’ he breathed. ‘You haven’t forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven’t forgotten that he once tried to kill me?’
‘My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus,’ said Dumbledore quietly. POA ‘Hermione’s Secret’ pg 286-287 uk ed

gottalovelife

January 9th, 2006, 11:12 am

If Snape was good why would he make the vow at all?

if he was good his choices were

A. expose himself as a spy

B. swear (and finaly) kill dumbledore

which would hurt the order more?

moonlight883

January 9th, 2006, 11:18 am

he had no choice.
he had to surrender his ideas/morals to serve any use to the order. Snape is a man with a purspose he doesn't care about appearances when he focused on a task.

He is playing both sides, yes, but this time its not for the loss of the good side.

voldyvolvol

January 9th, 2006, 1:08 pm

Snape's good, because I think that the revulsion and hatred on his face was related to the arguement that Hagrid heard Snape and Dumbledore had. I think they were arguing about Snape being ordered to kill Voldemort in order for him to stay alive because of the unbreakable vow. The revulsion and hatred is probably that he does not want to kill Dumbledore. However, he'll never have the chance to come back to the good side because he will die before the end of the 7th.

Nass

January 9th, 2006, 1:51 pm

What I was trying to say is that if Snape isn’t on Dumbledore’s side and he killed him on Voldemort’s orders, or because he hated Dumbledore and simply wanted to kill him or something like that, then you could definitely call that cold-blooded murder. But if Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore’s orders for the greater good and at great cost to himself, most of Snape-is-good believers wouldn’t call that cold-blooded murder.

But there is no real canon that it was on his orders, is there?

arithmancer

January 9th, 2006, 5:53 pm

But there is no real canon that it was on his orders, is there?
Hi there.

Let's assume there was no order. Either in advance, or via Legilimency at the final moment. What, in your opinion, should Snape have done when he showed up on the Tower if he was a loyal Order member? Dying to save Dumbledore would certainly be something I woul dlike to have seen him do. But in my opinion that was not an option available to him under the circumstances. (He could only die to not save anyone...)

Personally I feel that there were times when Snape was losing trust in Dumbledore. Sirius' return and Dumbledore's belief in Sirius' innocence and Dumbledore's ultimate help in Sirius' escape and protection I think was more than enough than Snape could stand. We have the quote:

Yet in GoF the relationship seems to have returned to a better place. It is possible, certainly, that from the point you cite onwards, Snape is acting around Dumbledore. It is equally possible that at some point after the scene you cite (and before Snape shakes hands with Sirius in GoF) Dumbledore had a private conversation with Snape in which he explained about Scabbers being the Animagus form of Peter Pettigrew. Snape would not be happy about it as it would require him to give up a belief to which he was deeply attached (that Sirius was the traitor), but I think he is capable of accepting the facts if they are forced on him. Do you think Dumbledore never discussed the matter with Snape again?

If Snape was good why would he make the vow at all?

if he was good his choices were

A. expose himself as a spy

B. swear (and finaly) kill dumbledore

which would hurt the order more?

Those were not his choices...

At the moment he took the Vow, he had reason to believe he would be able to get out of killing Dumbledore (and without letting Draco succeed). The Vow's wording is far from ironclad.

vlasiou

January 9th, 2006, 7:20 pm

JKR wished Snape today "Happy Birthday" -and there are other threads discussing things like "she can't be possibly be wishing a bloody murderer to have a nice, happy birthday! Thus, Snape is good" and "ah, it's just a mistake probably, because the birthdays were set a year before" and "ah, but a year before she knew what was coming in book 6, and she still included Snape".

I agree that anybody who kills anyone is definitely not an angel. However, I do recall a "Law and Order" (or so...) episode, where the kidnapped couple is put in a tough position. Namely, the perverted kidnappers ask the husband to murder his wife in order to save his life (they will get a kick from his pain while doing so, and they've done this before). Should he not murder his wife, then they just kill them both. Should he murder the wife, then his life is spared and he goes back to his children. Well, the husband did murder the wife, which didn't help him much as he was killed in any case.

I think Snape is put in a similar situation. He doesn't necessarily like the task at hand, but he does see a benefit or two by doing so. Perhaps a trully good-natured-Dumbledore-like person would just say "the hell with you, I'll just pick death than becoming a murderer", but I think it is more realistic to assume that only a handfull of people in this world would actually choose this path.

So Snape is not an angel, but the fact that he didn't petrify Harry to take him to Voldemort speaks volumes in my opinion. And the fact that JKR did wish him a very happy birthday in bright colours does add up to the points of the Snape-is-good side. How many points are added depend on the side you stand though :) I don't pick sides, as I don't believe in the Bush dogma "you are either with us or against us". I see many colours in between, and I'd place Snape in the light grey area.

winky22

January 9th, 2006, 7:38 pm

Personally I feel that there were times when Snape was losing trust in Dumbledore. Sirius' return and Dumbledore's belief in Sirius' innocence and Dumbledore's ultimate help in Sirius' escape and protection I think was more than enough than Snape could stand. We have the quote:

’I suppose he’s told you the same fairy tale he’s planted in Potter’s mind?’ spat Snape. “Something about a rat and Peter Pettigrew being alive –‘
'That, indeed, is Black’s story,’ said Dumbledore, surveying Snape closely through his half-moon spectacles.
‘And does my evidence count for nothing?’ snarled Snape. 'Peter Pettigrew was not in the Shrieking Shack, nor did I see any sign of him in the grounds.’
‘That is because you were knocked out, Professor!’ said Hermione earnestly. ‘You didn’t arrive in time to hear –‘
'Miss Granger, HOLD YOUR TONGUE!’
‘Now Snape,’ said Fudge, startled, ‘the young lady is disturbed in her mind, we must make allowances –‘
‘I would like to speak to Harry and Hermione alone.’ Said Dumbledore abruptly. ‘Cornelius, Severus, Poppy – please leave us.’
‘Headmaster!’ spluttered Madam Pomfrey. ‘They need treatment, they need rest –‘
This cannot wait.’ Said Dumbledore. ‘I must insist.’ skipping slightly ahead…
’You surely don’t believe a word of Black’s story?’ Snape whispered, his eyes fixed on Dumbledore’s face.
`I wish to speak to Harry and Hermione alone,’ Dumbledore repeated.
Snape took a step towards Dumbledore.
‘Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of six-teen,’ he breathed. ‘You haven’t forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven’t forgotten that he once tried to kill me?’
‘My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus,’ said Dumbledore quietly. POA ‘Hermione’s Secret’ pg 286-287 uk ed

I see what you mean here but i wouldn't call it losing trust in Dumbledore i would say he was very frustrated with Dumbledore because of how paticient (sp?) and trusting he is with people especially the young and the (so it seems) guilty. He hated Sirius and more than likely wanted him to face the Dementors for own personal satifaction.

Snape to me is quite the oppisite in Dumbledore he is not very patcient (sp?) and not very trusting especially with the young.

Blood_River

January 9th, 2006, 7:57 pm

I think it's more that Snape is frustrated with Dumbledore when he doesn't take Snape's side/ view of things. Especially, it seems, when Dumbledore decides to trust or forgive people... which I think is a little interesting in light of his own past. I don't think he really lost his trust in Dumbledore, as much as he felt betrayed that Dumbledore didn't hate Sirius too... and there have probably been conversations since then in which Dumbledore justified / explained things to him.

Oh, and to everyone who said Snape couldn't've known Harry was a parselmouth because of how shocked and surprised he looked:

Harry wasn't sure what made him do it. He wasn't even aware of deciding to do it. All he knew was that his legs were carrying him forward as though he was on casters and that he had shouted stupidly at the snake, "Leave him alone!" And miraculously -- inexplicably -- the snake slumped to the floor, docile as a thick, black garden hose, its eyes now on Harry. Harry felt the fear drain out of him. he knew the snake wouldn't attack anyone now, though how he knew it, he couldn't have explained.

He looked up at Justin, grinning, expecting to see Justin looking relieved, or puzzled, or even grateful -- but certainly not angry and scared.

"What do you think you're playing at?" he shouted, and before Harry could say anything, Justin had turned and stormed out of the hall.

Snape stepped forward, waved his wand, and the snake vanished in a small puff of black smoke. Snape, too, was looking at Harry in an unexpected way: It was a shrewd and calculating look, and Harry didn't like it.
Where did anyone get the idea he looked shocked from? The movie?

winky22

January 9th, 2006, 8:24 pm

snapes_witch

January 10th, 2006, 6:39 am

Probably a clue that it is going to be Snape's last birthday, and that he should enjoy it. Probably means the Order is going to murder him. :evil:

Erm, check the picture; the date is 09/01/06 not 09/01/99. :p

Awiana

January 10th, 2006, 12:42 pm

But there is no real canon that it was on his orders, is there?
If by real canon you mean absolute proof, then no, there is no absolute canon proof that it was on Dumbledore’s orders, just as there is no absolute canon proof that it wasn’t on his orders, either. There just isn’t absolute proof one way or the other. If there was, there wouldn’t be this much debate and discussion about his loyalties. :)

marcko90000

January 10th, 2006, 3:23 pm

Erm, check the picture; the date is 09/01/06 not 09/01/99. :p
I don't understand what you're getting at. You celebrate birthdays every year. What's 99 got to do with it?

sqizzer

January 10th, 2006, 3:26 pm

Took me a while to catch up on the backlog of posts. Jeez guys, miss a few days and it's near impossible to catch up!!!:lol: I apologise in advance for the length of this post (seriously), but so many new things came up that made my cogs spin. So here's my newest point of view (not going to quote making this post even longer - so I hope you remember who posted these comments and where they are)

The snake thing from COS when Draco and Harry were duelling came up.
I was a bit surprised that this could be seen as proof at all. Maybe it's my ignorance, but I was under the impression that not even Dumbledore knew Harry was a parselmouth, he had suspisions but not certainty until afterwards. Why would he relay his suspicions to Snape? That would be adding fuel to the fire unnecessarily if Dumbledore was wrong, wouldn't it? Dumbledore has never been ignorant of the friction between the two however unsuitable or misplaced he may deem it, and what purpose would it have served to let Snape know anyway? Snape would also have no reason to assume Harry was a parselmouth, it's a rare gift and it doesn't run in his family. I think the snake was basically symbolic of Slytherin house, and a nice way to catch Harry offguard in order to add yet another notch to his "ridicule Harry belt".

Snape - Lupin - Greyback.
Why Snape didn't let slip to Greyback/DE's about Lupin? I'm a Good!Snaper so I'm a bit biased on this, but here goes anyway. IMO Snape has a level of respect for Lupin, granted not a high one, but most certainly more than he had for Sirius or James. He despised both Sirius and James for whatever reasons he may have had (one or two accounts are mentioned in the books- but the root of it is missing), but I don't see him having the same feelings about Lupin. Apart from him disliking Lupin for his association with the two that he despised, there's no personal conflict between them. The only time I remember them being in any conflict situation was in the shrieking shack when Pettigrew appeared, but I think it was valid due to Snape's assumptions. He was (as was everyone else - even Lupin) under the impression that Sirius was the SK and had murdered Pettigrew, and the picture of Lupin helping Sirius and therefore being a traitor would indeed have infuriated anyone. All the evidence pointing toward Sirius as the traitor would have proven Snape's opinion about him correct from the start, that he'd been right about the kind of man that Sirius truely was all along. His disdain for Sirius runs far too deep to be mended (a bit stubborn, but human nature) and Lupin's continued association with Sirius would understandably be completely unacceptable to Snape. Snape now knows he was wrong about Sirius and Pettigrew, therefore his opinions of Lupin for that occasion are invalid, but his feelings for Sirius remain as they are personal. Snape letting slip about Lupin's werewolf status in the school is different as it did not put his life in danger. Telling Greyback would have ensured his persuit and eventual death.

Snape being Voldemort's favorite and most trusted.....
Now this one may be a bit wild, and is (as is everything else in this post) purely speculated theory, but it makes sense to me for now. Just for the record, it was not Bella, but Narcissa who said it. Having said that, I think I understand why Narcissa would have had reason enough to say something like this. Any DE would fight for the chance to be Voldemort's most trusted, to be his favorite. As sinister as I see Voldemort being, he would use this fact to his advantage and use this desire as a punishment when revoked. Snape's position as a redeemed DE seems to me to be solely because Snape followed Voldemort's orders without fail. Snape's conversation with Bella in HPB "Spinner's End" proves to me that, even though Snape may seem to have failed Voldemort and thought him dead, he had still followed his orders without fail whereas Lucius, for example, had not (the diary). Lucius had taken it upon himself to do what was intended without orders, and by doing so, jeopardizing one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Snape, on the other hand, had not strayed from the orders he was given to become a spy for Voldemort before he disappeared, even though Snape thought him dead. I believe that due to the diary being destroyed (even though no-one apparently knows the extent of it's importance), Voldemort would view Snape's remained position in Hogwarts all that time more valuable than Snape trying to find him. Snape had an immense amount of information to offer on his return, and his not going after and killing Harry ensured that Voldemort could use Harry's blood to return in human form, a highly valuable (though unforseen) asset that would prove Snape a trustworthy (and stable) follower in Voldemort's eyes. Voldemort could possibly now view anyone who might take it upon themselves to do other than what they are told to do, an unpredictable liability. Now with Voldemort being such a loner, he would not advertise these facts to the DE's, but I am assuming that when Lucius was forced into telling Voldemort about the events ending in the destruction of the diary (and so the horcrux), Voldemort's rage might have brought up this redeeming quality in Snape to prove the necessity of following orders without fail. Saying something about Snape too believing that Voldemort was dead but did not stray from the path proving to be a far more valuable asset when returning. That someone who is so dedicated that he follows orders no matter what is more trustworthy and highly favored than a man who discards the importance of a task for a miniscule act of revenge, and not even being able to do so effectively as Voldemort was not given credit as the heir of Slytherin to the world anyway. This could be why Narcissa has this impression of Snape, and why Bella doesn't. Bella too said that she is Voldemort's most trusted and most loyal, but this would be Voldemort's sinister manipulation at work rather than his true feelings. He does not put his trust or faith in anyone other than himself, but knows that he can manipulate his followers because of their desire for the position. Also, he does not confide in anyone making it easy for Snape to say that he knows about things he doesn't, as noone can contradict his statements, not even Bella.

The Unbreakable Vow
I find the WHOLE business of the unbreakable vow very fishy on both sides of the fence. If he was such a die-hard DE, then why would he go against Voldemort's ruling and make the UV in the first place? That would be a defiance of his orders wouldn't it? The job was given to Draco alone, if Voldemort wanted Snape to intervene in case of failure, surely he would have ordered him to do so. Snape did say that he thought Voldemort might have intended for him to do it in the end, but still - he was not ordered to do so. But then again, if Snape is not a DE, why would he take a vow that would ensure Dumbledore's murder either way (assuming he knew about the details of the job given to Draco)? Dumbledore seems to be Snape's only true ally, and why would he jeopardize this? So speculation is naturally rife as both sides have a strong case in all respects.

Dumbledore not knowing about the unbreakable vow... even if Dumbledore did not know about the UV before, Harry's telling him about it after the events of Slughorn's party and the overheard conversation would not have been dismissed as mere rantings from a teenager. Dumbledore would not have wanted to show his concern upon hearing it (had he not known before) as it would have fuelled Harry's stubborn and unrelenting distrust in Snape, and Dumbledore would have gone to Snape about it later. I doubt that he would have dismissed it completely, even if Snape denied it, but I do think he knew about it from the beginning. I can't remember where I got this impression, but Dumbledore has always believed that Voldemort would rather want him eliminated before going after Harry as he is a great threat, and that Voldemort would want to kill Harry himself (I think it was in OOTP where Dumbledore assumed that Voldemort was using Harry's connection to get to him). My take on it is that Snape was pretending to know the details of Draco's task, but assumed that Dumbledore could be the target because of Dumbledore's suspicions, and so he did what needed to be done which ended up in the UV. This may or may not have been Snape's plan but was a necessity at the time because of Bella. As I said before, if he was a DE, this act could be seen as treason by Voldemort as it was not his task to complete meaning that Snape has a lot of explaining to do to Voldemort for killing Dumbledore - regardless of his good or evil status.

Severus...Please
Yet another theory - From the moment Draco unwanded Dumbledore, Dumbledore was talking Draco out of completing his task and moving over to the right side (good side). Giving Draco reason to believe that he could get away with it without jeopardizing the safety of his family. Saying that he is not a killer or he would have already done it, that his heart wasn't truely in it, that it is more difficult than he thought it would be, that he does not have to do it. I feel that Dumbledore was far more concerned with Draco not becoming a murderer than his own death. He wanted to save Draco from a fate that could not be altered had he killed Dumbledore, from choosing a life far worse than he could imagine, preventing him from making a decision that would mark his soul forever. This seemed to be working until the DE's appeared and they were pushing Draco to go through with it. They would not do it for him as it was not their task to complete, but they would've made sure that he completed it, jeering him on to do so and it seemed that Draco's fear for his family overshadowed the good in him that would have originally prevented him from killing Dumbledore. I believe that Dumbledore's plea to Snape when he appeared, was to intervene before Draco built up the courage or was forced to do it himself, and so relieving Draco of a burden that would have followed him for his entire life. I see it more as a "Please, intervene now and save Draco's soul" than a "Please, you said you would" or "Please, don't kill me". I have had plenty of views on this, but this is where I stand today.

A Good!Snape comment (I promise this post is nearly finished) - the snake thing made me think of it. In "Spinner's End" when Snape was answering Bella's inquisition, the answer as to why Snape had not killed Harry sparked my interest. He said that Harry '...had no extraordinary talent at all. blah blah blah...simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. blah blah blah...mediocre to the last degree...", which convincingly paints a morbidly bland picture of Harry, but even given Snape's dislike of the boy (which is more personal than warranted) he's not that blinded by hate that he couldn't see Harry's instances of natural talent and skill come through - not to mention the parselmouth thing which is extraordinary and rare. I was wondering whether Voldemort knows that Harry is a parselmouth? He has not heard the "mark him as his equal" bit of the prophecy, and it seems plausible that Harry could merely have been taken to the COS by possessed Ginny (ie Tom Riddle), therefor not being revealed as a parselmouth. If this is true, then why would Snape relay to Voldemort the unskilled blandness of Harry instead of what Harry's strengths and talents are (ie helping Voldemort) if he wasn't on the good side? I know the conversations are not canon, but I got this impression of what what said from that chapter. It's curious.

That's it:p

arithmancer

January 10th, 2006, 5:36 pm

The snake thing from COS when Draco and Harry were duelling came up.

:tu: I agree, no way could he have known Harry was a Parselmouth!

[Snape being Voldemort's favorite and most trusted.....

The Unbreakable Vow

I disagree on this one. Before Snape returned to him at the end of GoF, Voldemort was sure Snape and left him, and knew exactly what he wanted to do about it (Kill him.) Clearly, Snape was successful in doing some fast talking. But I personally can't see Voldemort going from seeing Snape as a traitor who must be killed, to seeing Snape as his right hand. If Snape had provided some rucially important information (instead of just lots of it) I might see things differently. But I am pretty sure he did not (since, like you, I am a good Snaper...)

What I think happened is that when Snape came back with his story, Voldemort saw the possibility that his story might be true, in which case Snape could certainly still be of much use. So he decided not to kill him, and see what would happen. I think that one reason Pettigrew is living at Snape's is to keep an eye on him for Voldemort. So I think Bella has the right view of Snape's position-that he may not be reliable. I think Narcissa's comments are sheer flattery. She's there to ask a big favor, after all. It is also a situation in which it makes more sense for Snape to take the Unbreakable Vow. If Voldemort is unsure of Snape, having Death Eaters like Bella (or someone she gossipd with) whispering in his ear that Snape is untrustworthy) is dangerous, it could tip the scales against Snape in Voldemort's mind.

I find the WHOLE business of the unbreakable vow very fishy on both sides of the fence.
Indeed. A reason I prefer to think Snape's position among the Death Eaters is somewhat precarious. It makes drastic measures make more sense.

sqizzer

January 10th, 2006, 6:33 pm

I disagree on this one. Before Snape returned to him at the end of GoF, Voldemort was sure Snape and left him, and knew exactly what he wanted to do about it (Kill him.) Clearly, Snape was successful in doing some fast talking. But I personally can't see Voldemort going from seeing Snape as a traitor who must be killed, to seeing Snape as his right hand. If Snape had provided some rucially important information (instead of just lots of it) I might see things differently. But I am pretty sure he did not (since, like you, I am a good Snaper...)
Not his right hand at all. No no that's not what I was saying. Some fast talking on Snape's side indeed, having to prove the importance of having remained at Hogwarts all that time otherwise he would have been killed instantly. Timeline does not support the Lucius' failure therefore Snape is fabulous theory for the night of Voldemort's return. No this would have happened over an extended period of time, but I condensed it into an argument factor where the information could come forward. I was speaking of Narcissa's point of view, and explaining the reasoning for Voldemort having said these kinds of things to Lucius only to point out the importance of following orders and being loyal and using Snape as an example as he (like Lucius) was not in Azkaban either. I was not saying that Voldemort now deems Snape as his most trusted or his favorite, but that Narcissa could have read this from what was said to Lucius, and taken to the belief that this might be Voldemort's new standing on Snape. Hence why Bella may not be too taken with the idea, as she does not trust Snape, did not hear Voldemort say so, was not there to hear the humiliated confessions of what happened as a wife would, and is under the assumption that she holds that position with Voldemort. I suspect they all think Voldemort sees them as his right hand, fuelled by his manipulation no doubt, and not seeing any of them as right hands or equals at all.

What I think happened is that when Snape came back with his story, Voldemort saw the possibility that his story might be true, in which case Snape could certainly still be of much use. So he decided not to kill him, and see what would happen. I think that one reason Pettigrew is living at Snape's is to keep an eye on him for Voldemort. So I think Bella has the right view of Snape's position-that he may not be reliable. I think Narcissa's comments are sheer flattery. She's there to ask a big favor, after all. It is also a situation in which it makes more sense for Snape to take the Unbreakable Vow. If Voldemort is unsure of Snape, having Death Eaters like Bella (or someone she gossipd with) whispering in his ear that Snape is untrustworthy) is dangerous, it could tip the scales against Snape in Voldemort's mind.
Decided not to kill him, and see what would happen - I support this as stated above:tu: , not the 180 degree turnabout on his opinion of Snape, but finding him valuable to a certain degree, and then being boosted by the Lucius failure (diary) using Snape as proof that Lucius' excuses were weak

Pettigrew there to keep an eye out - yes I agree.:tu: though it's funny that Voldemort doesn't trust his devotion either

Narcissa's flattery - maybe, but I like my idea more:p

The vow - AGREED!!:tu: Though it ties in with my view too, ANY sign of non-commital by anyone would be relayed immediately to Voldemort by a die-hard DE in the hope that the information would push them up a notch in Voldemort's eyes. Bella is desperate for this, her value status having dropped after not successfully retrieving the prophecy. Dodgy circumstances for Snape to be taking an "I'm not too sure I want to help you" stand, the stakes are too high in this instance. That's why I said that Snape did what needed to be done which ended up in the UV - it may not have been his intention but having no choice because of Bella being there. A bit of a dual-edged sword this one, because not doing it would send Bella straight to Voldemort, and doing it might infuriate Voldemort even though Dumbledore is dead because the task was Draco's. It's still fishy though

arithmancer

January 10th, 2006, 6:47 pm

Not his right hand at all. No no that's not what I was saying.

Sorry! I misunderstood your point. And yes, Narcissa could be thinking about some conparison of Lucius' recent failure when she makes the comments about Snape's high status, that makes sense. She just doesn't understand the situation. (I do not believe she is a Death Eater herself, so she getsd her imformation from Lucius and Bella mostly.)

That's why I said that Snape did what needed to be done which ended up in the UV - it may not have been his intention but having no choice because of Bella being there. A bit of a dual-edged sword this one, because not doing it would send Bella straight to Voldemort, and doing it might infuriate Voldemort even though Dumbledore is dead because the task was Draco's. It's still fishy though

The Vow also gives Snape a pretty ironclad excuse for nosing his way into Draco's business. If Draco mentions to his mother, Bella, or another Death Eater that Snape is trying to learn more details about his plan, they aren't going to suspect Snape is acting on Dumbledore's behalf. Once he has taken the Vow, he has an obvious personal interest in Draco's success. His life may be on the line.

I also think that Snape believed when he Vowed that he would be able to wiggle out of the third clause because of the conditional way Narcissa worded it (if it is necessary, if it seems Draco will fail). I think if Dumbledore could have hidden Draco from Voldemort as he suggested in their conversation on the Tower, Snape would not have been bound by the Vow to kill Dumbledore.

But yes, fishy.

Blood_River

January 10th, 2006, 7:05 pm

But could Bellatrix really run to Voldemort if Snape refused to take the Vow? Voldemort didn't order them there -- Narcissa came with the intention of defying him. Bellatrix followed her, making herself an accessory (even if her intent was to stop her sister). And if Voldemort really wanted Snape to finish Dumbledore in the case of Draco's failure, then presumably he would've ordered Snape to himself. He might even see Snape's refusal to take the vow as a show of loyalty to him.

Tarragon

January 10th, 2006, 8:43 pm

What I think happened is that when Snape came back with his story, Voldemort saw the possibility that his story might be true, in which case Snape could certainly still be of much use. So he decided not to kill him, and see what would happen. I think that one reason Pettigrew is living at Snape's is to keep an eye on him for Voldemort. So I think Bella has the right view of Snape's position-that he may not be reliable.

What quality is there about Voldemort that makes you think he would take such a chance on a someone who serves as a double agent on the mere possibility he was telling the truth? Because taking into account what we know of him, the Dark Lord would never have accepted Snape back into the fold had he been anything but one hundred percent sure Snape was his loyal servant and spy. Voldemort never does anything unless he is positive (in his mind, not necessarily in reality) that it will be to his benefit at the least possible liability to himself. So, yes, if he had not believed Snape's story, he would have killed him. (And as a side note, I am not saying that just because Voldemort believes Snape is his loyal servant that Snape really is. Snape could be hoodwinking him, as some people believe, but that does not mean Voldemort doesn't think he is truly a Death Eater.) And Pettigrew, given the task of spying on Snape? He is a very ineffective spy then, is he not, as he is so easily cowed by Snape?

I think Narcissa's comments are sheer flattery. She's there to ask a big favor, after all. It is also a situation in which it makes more sense for Snape to take the Unbreakable Vow. If Voldemort is unsure of Snape, having Death Eaters like Bella (or someone she gossipd with) whispering in his ear that Snape is untrustworthy) is dangerous, it could tip the scales against Snape in Voldemort's mind.

Perhaps Narcissa was flattering Snape by saying he is the Dark Lord's favourite, but that does not mean the Dark Lord does not favour Snape. Remember, Voldemort believes Snape is passing him priceless information about the Order, his main opposition (the Ministry is unorganized and could potentially be easy to defeat as a result) which could help him defeat those who oppose him, helping him gain control of the wizarding world. I think it is safe to say he finds Snape a valuable asset, if nothing else. And as Snape said, Bellatrix could not even help round up a group of six teenaged children with an entire squad of Death Eaters at her back which has caused her to fall out of the Dark Lord's favour. Voldemort is intelligent enough to know that any attempt by Bellatrix to slander Snape is based in jealousy and an attempt to ingratiate herself to him, so I find it highly unlikely that Voldemort would take anything she says seriously.

winky22

January 10th, 2006, 9:02 pm

I think that at the time of his return Voldie did think Snape was gone for good and he was going to kill him. Snape and Dumbledore would have talked about the return of Voldie and they knew what they had to do or more Snape knew what he had to do and he knew it would be difficult but it was either this or voldie would kill him anyway.
The plan would be to convince Voldie that Snape was indeed a loyal DE and that he had information on what Albus Dumbledore has been doing over the years and what he is doing now, not to metion all the info on Harry. Of corse Snape only gives Voldie bits that where not too damaging to the order or Dumbledore.

This would have been to tempting for Voldie, a spy, in the Order to help him Defete D. Snape's story was convicing enough and it worked. Snape must give some info to Voldie or Voldie would suspect him as not to be a truthfull DE that he says he is so some info must be past on.
But more info is past onto D about Voldie's doings and plans and that makes Snape the most important member of the Order.

arithmancer

January 10th, 2006, 9:42 pm

What quality is there about Voldemort that makes you think he would take such a chance on a someone who serves as a double agent on the mere possibility he was telling the truth? Because taking into account what we know of him, the Dark Lord would never have accepted Snape back into the fold had he been anything but one hundred percent sure Snape was his loyal servant and spy. Voldemort never does anything unless he is positive (in his mind, not necessarily in reality) that it will be to his benefit at the least possible liability to himself. So, yes, if he had not believed Snape's story, he would have killed him.

Voldemort knows Lucius Malfoy has his own agenda, yet he takes Lucius back. If he had only servants of whose loyalty he was 100% sure, he would have nobody but Bella and her like in his organization. It seems to me that someone who trusts noone, will tolerate less than trustworthy people if they are useful. Hence a wait-and-see attitude.

Snape's disloyalty as a simple fact (if it even iS a fact) does not hurt Voldemort in any way. It is his actions that pose a danger. If he gives away vital secrets Voldemort does not want shared, that is one way he can hurt Voldemort. If he tricks Voldemort by passing on false intelligence, this is another way he can hurt Voldemort. But both of these can be guarded against, if Voldemort is careful. He can simply avoid presenting Snape with secrets he really cares about, and get independent confirmation for stpories Snape tells him, until he feels more sure of his ground. (Or even, give Snape enough rope to hang himself...)

It is not apparent to me that Snape has done either of these, at least not where Voldemort could see them. (Dumbledore's knowledge af Voldemorts anger at Lucius over the Diary might qualify, actually, but 1) Voldemort does not know DUmbledore knows about this, and 2) I don't think Voldemort realized when he had what was apparently a reasonably public scene with Lucius that it might be correctly understood by the opposition.)

And Pettigrew, given the task of spying on Snape? He is a very ineffective spy then, is he not, as he is so easily cowed by Snape?

I put little credence in that. Little Peter is easily cowed by everyone. It has never stopped him from doing quite an impressive bit of damage.

Perhaps Narcissa was flattering Snape by saying he is the Dark Lord's favourite, but that does not mean the Dark Lord does not favour Snape. Remember, Voldemort believes Snape is passing him priceless information about the Order, his main opposition (the Ministry is unorganized and could potentially be easy to defeat as a result) which could help him defeat those who oppose him, helping him gain control of the wizarding world. I think it is safe to say he finds Snape a valuable asset, if nothing else.

I see no hard story evidence that Snape has passed on any truly valuable information. (If you have an example, I'd love to hear it!) Certainly, as an Order member trusted by Dumbledore and working with him at Hogwarts, he is in a position to learn such information at some point. Which makes him potentially useful. But not yet proven (pre HBP. I am of the opinion that the killing of Dumbledore will be viewed as truly valuable by Voldemort.)

And as Snape said, Bellatrix could not even help round up a group of six teenaged children with an entire squad of Death Eaters at her back which has caused her to fall out of the Dark Lord's favour. Voldemort is intelligent enough to know that any attempt by Bellatrix to slander Snape is based in jealousy and an attempt to ingratiate herself to him, so I find it highly unlikely that Voldemort would take anything she says seriously.

The Death Eaters appear to be a typical backstabbing, politicking, making up to the boss sort of criminal enterprise. I am sure he knows it, I am sure he wants it that way. Which means of course you are righgt about WHY Bella would be saying bad things about Snape behind his back. But I believe Voldemort will listen carefully to her words nonetheless and evaluate any information she provides on its merits. The whole point of this organizational style is that all his subordinates are always spying on each others for him, making it that much harder for any of them to double-cross him.

Tarragon

January 11th, 2006, 3:22 am

Voldemort knows Lucius Malfoy has his own agenda, yet he takes Lucius back.
Voldemort knows that Lucius knows if he does anything to betray the Dark Lord, he will be murdered and his family name dragged through the mud. Lucius strikes me as the type who is quite fond of his life, and the threat of murder and disgrace alone is enough to keep him in line. Do not fool yourself; Voldemort has all of his Death Eaters (though, again, perhaps not Snape) exactly where he wants them: completely terrified of him and what he will do to them should they displease him. Fear for one's life is enough to ensure a person's loyalty, however unwilling that loyalty may be.

I see no hard story evidence that Snape has passed on any truly valuable information. (If you have an example, I'd love to hear it!) Certainly, as an Order member trusted by Dumbledore and working with him at Hogwarts, he is in a position to learn such information at some point. Which makes him potentially useful. But not yet proven (pre HBP. I am of the opinion that the killing of Dumbledore will be viewed as truly valuable by Voldemort.)
I think you should go back and reread what I posted. Did I say Snape is passing valuable information to the Dark Lord? No, I did not. What I said was, and I quote, "Voldemort believes Snape is passing him priceless information about the Order...." Just because Voldemort believes that is what Snape is doing does not make it so, which I fully acknowledged in my post. Of course Snape could be feeding him **** disguised as valuable jewels of information, but that doesn't mean Voldemort doesn't believes they really are jewels of information!

I do not intend to be rude when I say this, so do not take offense, but please read my posts through entirely, paying special attention to diction (word choice), because when you respond to my posts you are disputing things I did not even write in the first place as a result of misinterpreting what I have written.

arithmancer

January 11th, 2006, 4:43 am

I think you should go back and reread what I posted. Did I say Snape is passing valuable information to the Dark Lord? No, I did not. What I said was, and I quote, "Voldemort believes Snape is passing him priceless information about the Order...." Just because Voldemort believes that is what Snape is doing does not make it so, which I fully acknowledged in my post. Of course Snape could be feeding him **** disguised as valuable jewels of information, but that doesn't mean Voldemort doesn't believes they really are jewels of information!

Thanks for the clarification, but I understood your post. I may not have made my position clear, sorry! I think Voldemort has not been given any really valuable information yet. Where I differ from you is that I believe he knows it. But Voldemort realizes that this might be because Snape has not come by any real gems yet. I realize you did not claim Snape gave Voldemort really excellent information. I asked anyway, because if you or (anyone else who happens to be reading our exchange) could produce a genuine piece of great information Voldemort thinks he has from Snape and Snape alone, it might change my mind about this issue. The question was asked out of my personal curiosity, and I regret that my phrasing made it seem an attack on your position.

I think Voldemort must realize that in Snape he has a risky proposition. Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore is to me an indication that he perceives Dumbledore as potentially his equal in magical power. So he must realize that Snape, if he is loyal, is a truly outstanding Occlumens (because he has pulled the wool over the eyes of Dumbledore). Voldemort is far from stupid. In my opinion this means that when he sees Snape, and is 100% convinced of Snape's protestations of loyalty and fear of him, he has to consider the possibility that he is being played. My position is not that he tolerates perceived disloyalty from Snape. I agree with you that he would not, he would either kill Snape outright or contrive through whatever combination of threats, punishments, and rewards to eliminate the disloyalty. But despite the fact that Snape seems loyal, Voldemort is in my opinion sufficiently paranoid to nonetheless consider the possibility and act to cover this potential vulnerability.

Blood_River

January 11th, 2006, 9:01 pm

Voldemort is, by nature, a distrustful person. Because he only believes in power and those too weak to get it, it's probable he's quite wary of Snape who has now managed not only to deceive, but also to defeat Dumbledore, neither of which Voldemort himself could ever accomplish.

I actually think he might've kept a fake spy around just to feed false info to the Order, and to glean real truths about them from it. (by knowing his loyalties, Voldemort could easily deduce what was really going on by what they wanted him to think and didn't want him to know)

Furthermore, I got the impression in Spinner's End that Snape was selling himself to Voldemort on his usefulness more than his loyalty, although I don't think Voldemort quite sees it that way. Rather he hopes, or believes (tentatively) that Snape is telling the truth, and thinks that if he is, it's too good an opportunity to pass up.

vlasiou

January 11th, 2006, 9:51 pm

I see no hard story evidence that Snape has passed on any truly valuable information. (If you have an example, I'd love to hear it!)

Isn't Snape claiming to Narcissa and Bellatrix that his information led to the death of (he names a name here), member of the Order? This is his claim, and it is either true, or he managed to manipulate his way so that Voldemort and all the DE's think it is true... The fact remains though that this member of the Order is dead, and I haven't read so far any theory that refutes this part of Snape's claims in "Spinner's End".

arithmancer

January 11th, 2006, 10:35 pm

Isn't Snape claiming to Narcissa and Bellatrix that his information led to the death of (he names a name here), member of the Order? This is his claim, and it is either true, or he managed to manipulate his way so that Voldemort and all the DE's think it is true... The fact remains though that this member of the Order is dead, and I haven't read so far any theory that refutes this part of Snape's claims in "Spinner's End".

Since we have no knowledge of the circumstances of Emmeline Vance's death, of how Snape was involved, we can't really judge. If Snape really was instrumental in her death, this would be an example of useful information he passed on. However, the context in which he makes this statement is suspicious:

HBP, "Spinner's End"
"It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

We know from Dumbledore's statement in OotP that the truly useful information passed between Kreacher and the Malfoys. In his statement that he provided information on Sirius, he is apparently exaggerating the importance of his role. Most likely he did provide information such as: that Sirius is around in England, that he is an Animagus whose form is a large black dog, and that he is Harry's beloved godfather. Since all of this information could be independently obtained by Voldemort from Pettigrew and Lucius Malfoy, Snape could hardly do less... It could be that the death of Vance was a coincidence, but Snape HAD provided some (not necessarily lethal) information on her and is also claiming credit for the assist. Or not. We just don't know. Certainly, Snape's use of the word 'guessed' suggests he is pretty sure neither of the sisters know enough of the details to give him the lie.

Tarragon

January 11th, 2006, 10:54 pm

Isn't Snape claiming to Narcissa and Bellatrix that his information led to the death of (he names a name here), member of the Order? This is his claim, and it is either true, or he managed to manipulate his way so that Voldemort and all the DE's think it is true... The fact remains though that this member of the Order is dead, and I haven't read so far any theory that refutes this part of Snape's claims in "Spinner's End".

You are correct, Snape tells Bellatrix and Narcissa in the infamous second chapter, Spinner's End, that information he passed to the Dark Lord led "to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and...helped dispose of Sirius Black...." However, there is some what of a taboo on this thread against using any text in Spinner's End as canon support, as some believe Snape is making it all up to protect his status as a spy for the Order.

And I read your post Zgirnius, and I do agree with most of what you said. Voldemort, like most sociopathic mad men hell bent on mass genocide of an "inferior" race and world domination, is probably a very paranoid person. Though in a way, I think Voldemort may have somewhat of a "Cornelius Fudge complex" in that, while he acknowledges Dumbledore's greatness as a wizard, he has tried to downplay his fear of his old professor by convincing himself that while Dumbledore is an outstanding wizard, he is far greater and more powerful than Dumbledore ever was. And he outwardly disguises his fear of Dumbledore as bitter hatred because he does not want anyone to believe he really is afraid of something other than death. And I think that Voldemort, while he subconsciously knows it is untrue, has begun to believe it conciously himself. I really do not know if that makes any sense at all because lately I have been lacking the ability to string a coherent thought together, but it sounds alright, I think.

frizbog

January 12th, 2006, 2:03 am

Isn't Snape claiming to Narcissa and Bellatrix that his information led to the death of (he names a name here), member of the Order? This is his claim, and it is either true, or he managed to manipulate his way so that Voldemort and all the DE's think it is true... The fact remains though that this member of the Order is dead, and I haven't read so far any theory that refutes this part of Snape's claims in "Spinner's End".
Yes that is his claim. However, we know for an absolute fact that Snape is lying to somebody - either he is lying to the Order about his loyalty, or he is lying to Voldemort about his loyalty. We're trying to figure out who he's been lying to here in this thread.

Generally speaking, one can't reliably use Snape's own words as proof of who he's lying to unless one can show that something he said contradicts some incontrovertible canon evidence, or causes some inconsistency with something he has said previously -- if you do, you get circular logic and thus an invalid proof.

And yes, it's true that Emmeline Vance is dead. Nobody disputes this. But where is the proof, one way or the other, that Snape contributed to this? There is none. Bellatrix herself, who claims to be so trusted by Voldemort is asking Snape for an explanation instead of getting it directly from her boss (why doesn't she already know if she and Voldermort are so close?)

You mention that you haven't heard any theory that refutes Snape's claim. Have you heard any plausible theory that corroborates Snape's claim either? Beyond theories, what about canon support either way? And, even if there is nothing to refute Snape's claim, that doesn't mean it happened. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

So basically, all we have for it is Snape's word -- the word of a man who is definitely lying to one side or the other. And Snape's word is precisely what we're trying to evaluate the truth of, with no hard facts to evaluate it against. So, the bottom line is we don't know from the exchange at Spinner's End.

However, everyone is free to jump to any conclusion they'd like, of course. :)

Blood_River

January 12th, 2006, 4:02 am

Well, technically Emmeline Vance's death is disputed by those who think she may be in hiding. Given Dumbledore's implication that the Order can fake deaths to hide people in danger, it's not impossible... although again we have no proof.

But, what about Snape's actions in OotP? Did he know about Voldemort's plans to lure Harry to the DoM? His anger in Occlumency lessons everytime Harry's mind yielded new memories of it seems to imply that he at least suspected such a plan... and that he wasn't very fond of it, unless he was banking on Harry's curiosity, which isn't impossible.

But why would he send the order after Harry at all? He couldn't have taken false credit for it, as he contacted the OP members directly... and it would've been so easy to claim, after the teenagers were dead and the prophecy retrieved, that he knew nothing of it or -- if Harry survived to tell the tale --that he thought Harry was still in detention with Umbridge. He had checked and found Sirius safe and left it at that. He could've said that he expected Harry to come straight to his office when he got out, not ride a pack of thestrals to the MoM with his friends.

It would've been so easy to help Voldemort on that one, and he didn't...

arithmancer

January 12th, 2006, 4:17 am

But why would he send the order after Harry at all? He couldn't have taken false credit for it, as he contacted the OP members directly... and it would've been so easy to claim, after the teenagers were dead and the prophecy retrieved, that he knew nothing of it or -- if Harry survived to tell the tale --that he thought Harry was still in detention with Umbridge. He had checked and found Sirius safe and left it at that. He could've said that he expected Harry to come straight to his office when he got out, not ride a pack of thestrals to the MoM with his friends.

It would've been so easy to help Voldemort on that one, and he didn't...

I agree! But there were a series of posts in V8 of Snape's Betrayal which discussed a theory that Snape deliberately delayed notifying the Order. I don't buy it-but there it is...

snapes_witch

January 12th, 2006, 6:22 am

I don't understand what you're getting at. You celebrate birthdays every year. What's 99 got to do with it?

Do we wish Happy Birthday to people who are dead? I don't nor bake them a birthday cake, more than likely would lift a glass to toast their memory.

daisy5

January 12th, 2006, 9:11 am

I agree that anybody who kills anyone is definitely not an angel. However, I do recall a "Law and Order" (or so...) episode, where the kidnapped couple is put in a tough position. Namely, the perverted kidnappers ask the husband to murder his wife in order to save his life (they will get a kick from his pain while doing so, and they've done this before). Should he not murder his wife, then they just kill them both. Should he murder the wife, then his life is spared and he goes back to his children. Well, the husband did murder the wife, which didn't help him much as he was killed in any case.

I think Snape is put in a similar situation. He doesn't necessarily like the task at hand, but he does see a benefit or two by doing so. Perhaps a trully good-natured-Dumbledore-like person would just say "the hell with you, I'll just pick death than becoming a murderer", but I think it is more realistic to assume that only a handfull of people in this world would actually choose this path.
:tu: . Totally agree with you. Why sacrifice yourself if there's nothing to be gained by it?

sqizzer

January 12th, 2006, 10:15 am

Do we wish Happy Birthday to people who are dead? I don't nor bake them a birthday cake, more than likely would lift a glass to toast their memory.

If you're going to be using JKR's website birthday wishes as a guideline for predicting what's up, there are a few things to consider. It is perfectly concievable that she could put evidence right under our noses in a way people wouldn't obviously notice.

Is Snape good or not? - she celebrated Snape's birthday and not Voldemort's - check archives to see if any other DE's birthdays have been celebrated
Does Snape survive the series? - you might want to backtrack into archives to see if she's celebrated Sirius' or Cedric's birthdays for that. If it's true then it too means that Harry does manage to vanquish Voldemort. And we'd have to wait for July to find out whether Harry survived it.
Would JK celebrate someone's birthday until she's actually killed them on paper (therefore discarding the years meaning anything) - this could mean that she hasn't killed Snape yet but he might die anyway. Again - it would help then if you went back to archives to find out if old deaths have been celebrated.
Maybe she only celebrates the birthday's of the characters she likes to write - then it doesn't matter either way because we know she likes to write Snape's character, but it doesn't prove he's good or not, or whether or not he survives.

Anyone know where such archives would be stored and if there is in fact an archive for her site? I will see if I can locate it, and then add my opinion.

sqizzer

January 12th, 2006, 10:16 am

Blood_River

January 12th, 2006, 9:23 pm

Why sacrifice yourself if there's nothing to be gained by it?

Very Slytherin. Not that I mean that as an insult... it's very practical, but then again Lily didn't know what the effect of her sacrifice would be. Many people would probably have reasoned that a few minutes after her death, Voldemort would just kill Harry anyways, so why bother? He couldn't though, because of her seemingly pointless death.

About the L&O episode: I wouldn't've killed if I were in that husband's position, though I can understand why it's very different from killing in cold blood. Even if I believed they'd've spared me (which I would seriously have doubted, frankly), I'd still rather die than kill a loved one, even if they were going to die anyway. (I probably would've gone out fighting them somehow, though.)

Lord_Kalypso

January 12th, 2006, 9:26 pm

I reckon Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, so Malfoy and the rest of his scumbag family could keep their pathetic excuses for lives. Snape is still a good guy, I'm sure. Too bad Malfoy will die anyway, when I catch up with him...

random_musing

January 13th, 2006, 5:01 am

arithmancer

January 13th, 2006, 5:05 am

Inflarmari

January 13th, 2006, 5:36 am

ProfJS

January 13th, 2006, 7:16 am

I don't believe Snape is "good". After finishing HBP, I was thoroughly confused about Snape, and some of the complicated theories appealed to me. I'm still confused about Snape, but JKR's interviews make it very clear that Snape is not a 'good' guy, and she says that Dumbledore's isolation led to his making mistakes, including one huge mistake. I assume that huge mistake was trusting Snape.

That said, I think it's possible that Snape only true loyalty is to himself. So while he may have only worked for Dumbledore while it was convenient to do so, he isn't necessarily an all-out Voldemort disciple either. I also believe that Snape may have some conflicted feelings about some issues. If Snape is indeed not an all-out Voldemort supporter, then Harry may actually get some help from him, assuming that Harry can 'hold his nose' while doing so, put aside his understandable emotions, and offer some reason why helping Harry would be to Snape's advantage.

arithmancer

January 13th, 2006, 7:27 am

That said, I think it's possible that Snape only true loyalty is to himself. So while he may have only worked for Dumbledore while it was convenient to do so, he isn't necessarily an all-out Voldemort disciple either. I also believe that Snape may have some conflicted feelings about some issues. If Snape is indeed not an all-out Voldemort supporter, then Harry may actually get some help from him, assuming that Harry can 'hold his nose' while doing so, put aside his understandable emotions, and offer some reason why helping Harry would be to Snape's advantage.

I doubt Rowling would write it that way. Right at the end she makes it clear Harry is not willing to work with Scrimgeour (whose big fault is the continuing detention of poor Stan Shunpike). I have trouble believing Harry would then turn around and work with Snape, the murderer of Dumbledore.

I do think Snape will help Harry in some way...but then I am a 'good side' Snape believer.

PotionA

January 13th, 2006, 9:21 am

This might seem an odd point but you know in prisoner of azkaban the movie how snape stood in front of the trio to shield them from the werwolf lupin (I havent read the book in a long time so I could be wrong about this) why would he do this if he was truly evil or was it just the producer putting something in that was not origanilly in the book or was this one of the things that jk originally got goose bumps over when she first watched it

The movies are not canon. In the book, Snape regained conciousness after Harry conjured the Patronus that drove away the Dementors. Snape, afterwards, took the Trio and Sirius to Hogwarts.

That said, I think it's possible that Snape only true loyalty is to himself. So while he may have only worked for Dumbledore while it was convenient to do so, he isn't necessarily an all-out Voldemort disciple either. I also believe that Snape may have some conflicted feelings about some issues. If Snape is indeed not an all-out Voldemort supporter, then Harry may actually get some help from him, assuming that Harry can 'hold his nose' while doing so, put aside his understandable emotions, and offer some reason why helping Harry would be to Snape's advantage.

It's very much within Snape's character to do something like that, but there are way too many things in the books which proves that his loyalty lies with Dumbledore only. For instance, we didn't find out what he and Dumbledore were arguing about and what Snape's task for the Order was, his entire explanation to Bellatrix Lestrange about his allegiance lying with Voldemort, however clever it may be, seemed a bit flimsy, we also don't know why Dumbledore trusted him because he didn't confirm that it was because he had gone to Dumbledore after he had passed on the message about the prophecy to Voldemort, then there's the Unbreakable Vow which he couldn't have possibly broken and my guess is that Dumbledore didn't want him to die so he told Snape to do everything he could to follow that Vow and that was not to let anything happen to Malfoy, even if it led to Dumbledore's death. It explains the pleading tone in Dumbledore's voice before Snape hit him with the Killing Curse - Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him.

frizbog

January 13th, 2006, 11:49 am

The movies are not canon.
I agree fully. However, they can still give us good insights into which parts of canon are "core" canon and which parts are "disposable". If one of the movies deviates from canon, it is in a way that is not significant or contradictory to core plot or characterizations, since JKR approves this stuff.

hermione4

January 13th, 2006, 12:42 pm

Snape is definately NOT GOOD. He doesnt seem 2 b bothered by others at all.
So the chance of him coming back to the good point is almost null.
I hope Harry kills him 4 what he has done, the slimy brat tht he is:p
Does the unbreakable vow continue for life??

TheWazlibGirl

January 13th, 2006, 12:50 pm

hermione4

January 13th, 2006, 1:09 pm

The way I see it, Snape isn't good at all. He'll only see his side and do whatever benifits himself, without thinking if what he's doing is right, if it'll be best for everybody. He's the opposite of characters like Dumbledore who care about the best for everybody, and will pay heavy prices for doing so.
I don't think he will go back to the good side. By killing Dumbledore he put himself in a middle of a mess, and finding about Snape revealing the prophecy to Voldemort, even if he wants to redeem himself, I doubt anybody would let him. Dumbledore was the forgiving one, and now, without him, I don't think anybody will be forgiving towards him.
No offense to the Snape-is-good clan.

Didn't he already finish his job? He had to help Malfoy kill Dumbledore, which he did, so the Vow's broken.

Yea ur rite. Snape seems to be working for noone but himself. he goes wherever he thinks is safe. But right now he seems to be in a ditch he dug for himself.(Serves him right):agree:
The VOW: Narcissa doesnt tell though tht Snape's job ends whn Dumbledore dies. She says tht Snape has to help Draco fulfill the Dark Lords wishes, (maybe all the wishes) and tht Snape to the best of his ability will have to protect Draco.

Blood_River

January 13th, 2006, 3:49 pm

I wonder if Snape is really an escaped mental patient whose actions have no logic or reason behind them whatsoever, but for some reason no one's actually noticed....

*gasp!* What if he thought by A K-ing Dumbledore he was actually conjuring a pie? :eyebrows:

Ok, j/k but still... Snape is too much of a nasty, ****** git in so many ways to really be *good* but I have trouble believing he's loyal to Voldemort or only on his own side. I think he's just a really complicated person who changes his mind a lot. Sometimes he wants to be good and help the order, and other times he gets annoyed and spites them by helping Voldemort, but he also wants to stay alive so he does whatever's in his best interest -- as 99% of the DE do, since evil tends to be less self-sacrificing than good -- but then he feels bad about it and tries to be more selfless when it comes to fighting evil.

I doubt he's really been serving Voldemort this whole time, but he may be now. Or maybe, he's evil, but anti-Voldemort, because Voldemort killed his mom or his girlfriend or his pink pet pigmy puff, the first thing he ever loved.

But yeah, no teacher who asks the same first year student 4 NEWT-level questions in a row, punctured only by snide remarks about celebrity, on the first day of school is a good kind of person.

arithmancer

January 13th, 2006, 7:55 pm

But yeah, no teacher who asks the same first year student 4 NEWT-level questions in a row, punctured only by snide remarks about celebrity, on the first day of school is a good kind of person.

The questions are not NEWT level. Hermione knows all of the answers based on her reading of the first year text. (From which I would conclude that students learn about NEWT level potions earlier-it is actually MAKING some of them that is NEWT level).

Which still does not make Snape a kind soul, by any means!

PotionA

January 13th, 2006, 9:36 pm

The questions are not NEWT level. Hermione knows all of the answers based on her reading of the first year text. (From which I would conclude that students learn about NEWT level potions earlier-it is actually MAKING some of them that is NEWT level).

Which still does not make Snape a kind soul, by any means!

It doesn't make him evil either. Yes he was always unfair and cruel to Harry but Snape had his experiences with the Marauders ringing in his ears even in his adult life, not to mention that he had given Voldemort the information about the prophecy which I believe ties in with Voldemort giving Lily Evans a chance, are factors that will haunt Snape for the remainder of his natural life and seeing Harry brought back those unpleasant memories. Whatever the case is, Snape asking difficult questions to Harry does not mean that he is evil and that he's working for Voldemort because it's simply in his personality to act cold and distant.

half_blood_rat1

January 14th, 2006, 2:17 am

I still think Snape is good in a way..... I think he is sure voldemort believes that snape is in his inner circle and is his most loyal death eater but is snape relly getting inside info for the orderof the pheonix in order to help the DA and all people wishing for voldemort to be eliminated.
i cant wait for the final showdown in book 7 ....

Blood_River

January 14th, 2006, 2:18 am

Well, Hermione also read several non-required books too, and as no one else knew the answer, I think it's still possible they were above their year. But that wasn't the point, it was mostly that he's nasty (and yes, being a jerk doesn't make him pro-Voldy, I never said it did).

But in any case, NOTHING the Marauders did to Snape justifies his treatment of Harry, a child in his power whom he doesn't actually know anything about. I understand that he has very just reasons to be very upset with them, but it's not okay to take out his anger at James on Harry, and it's even shabbier given that he's Harry's teacher.

In any case, I don't think he'll prove to have been *good* in the sense that Harry or Dumbledore are good, but I'd be equally surprised if he were simply on Voldemort's side and a cold-blooded killer. That would make his character uncharacteristically flat, and completely against what we've come to expect from him since PS when it turned out that he was trying to save Harry, but totally *did* hate him.

Inflarmari

January 14th, 2006, 3:35 am

hermione4

January 14th, 2006, 3:54 am

Is Snape is not evil, then from where did he learn all those spells when he came to Hogwatrs?? He seemed to have known more spells than half the seventh years. I dont think it was from his mother too, 'coz she doesnt seem to have been such a famous personality at Hogwarts, just a Gobstone champion. Moreover howcome Snape was allowed to use his wand, before joinng Hogwarts???

Inflarmari

January 14th, 2006, 4:11 am

PotionA

January 14th, 2006, 4:13 am

But in any case, NOTHING the Marauders did to Snape justifies his treatment of Harry, a child in his power whom he doesn't actually know anything about. I understand that he has very just reasons to be very upset with them, but it's not okay to take out his anger at James on Harry, and it's even shabbier given that he's Harry's teacher.

But that is how Snape is. He had compared Harry with James Potter in the past which proves that he links his past to Harry who is a living breathing reminder of the person he had hated ever since he could remember. There is also another unknown reason which supports his dislike and mistreatment towards Harry and that might have something to do with Lily Evans, romantic feelings for her perhaps, or a cetain fondness for her because she was always kind to him but turned out to be no different than any others because she ended up marrying a person like James Potter etc etc.

In any case, I don't think he'll prove to have been *good* in the sense that Harry or Dumbledore are good, but I'd be equally surprised if he were simply on Voldemort's side and a cold-blooded killer. That would make his character uncharacteristically flat, and completely against what we've come to expect from him since PS when it turned out that he was trying to save Harry, but totally *did* hate him.

Agreed. Snape represents what Sirius had told Harry in OoTP that the world is not divided into simply good people and Death Eaters. There are people in that annoying gray area, like Umbridge, Fudge, Scrimgeour, Slughorn and so on who may not be the most pleasant individuals (entertaining to read about though) but they're not on Voldemort's side either. Snape is undoubtedly an obnoxious person but his loyalties lie with Dumbledore and he had killed him because he was asked to by Dumbledore himself.

hermione4

January 14th, 2006, 4:14 am

He lived with his witch mother so the ministry would not have been able to tell whether it was him or his mother who was doing the spells. It's not possible to tell what side snape is truely on by relying on the spells he knows

Yea yea I realised that, but u're telling me his Mother was a great witch?? I dont think so. Yea but then there are frinds too who turned out to be death eaters. I rally wonder how Dumbledore could trust him with that feeling sorry thing

arithmancer

January 14th, 2006, 4:39 am

Yea yea I realised that, but u're telling me his Mother was a great witch?? I dont think so. Yea but then there are frinds too who turned out to be death eaters. I rally wonder how Dumbledore could trust him with that feeling sorry thing

I believe that the reason for Dumbledore's trust is not that Snape came to him and said he was sorry after the Potters died (the way Harry told the story at the end of HBP). That WOULD be lame.

What really happened, I believe, is that Snape came to Dumbledore sometime after Harry was born, and told him that Voldemort intended to come after Harrry and his parents. This enabled Dumbledore to warn them and suggest they protect themselves with the Fidelius Charm. In addition, after this conversation, Snape agreed to be work for Dumbledore. Snape went back to Voldemort as a spy. Dumbledore believed Snape was sorry not just because he said so, but because he did what he could to protect the Potters and was willing to take on the dangerous role of spy among the Death Eaters.

Where, you may ask, am I getting this from? Well, in two different places Dumbledore says things which indicate that Snape was already working for him before Voldemort attacked Harry and was vaporized. The first instance is in the Pensieve scene in GoF, where Harry sees Karkaroff's hearing. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk." (Emphasis mine).

And in 'The Seer Overheard" chapter of HBP he suggests that Snape came and expressed his remorse before Voldemort killed the Potters: "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned-" (Again, my emphasis). If Snape had come to him once the Potters were dead, sayiong he was sorry about the interpretation of the Prophecy would be an odd way of explaining things. It only makes sense if Dumbledore is talking about something that happened before the Potters died. And also, from the GoF quite we know Dumbledore believes Snape 'returned' befoer Voldemorts fall, which also supports the idea Snape talked to him before the Potters were dead.

So, Snape tried to make up for his evil deeds by warning the Potters so they could hide themselves. That they still died is because Voldemort suborned their Secret Keper, Peter Pettigrew.

daisy5

January 14th, 2006, 7:51 am

Very Slytherin. Not that I mean that as an insult... it's very practical, but then again Lily didn't know what the effect of her sacrifice would be. Many people would probably have reasoned that a few minutes after her death, Voldemort would just kill Harry anyways, so why bother? He couldn't though, because of her seemingly pointless death.
Oh, none taken :no: . I've been sorted there many times and think highly of them :D .

Good point about Lily and the possibility of unforeseen consequences . . . but Severus' death would have been pointless because their situations were very, very different.

I don't think I could kill someone I loved if I were in that situation either. First, I like to think that I'm smart enough not to believe psychopaths. Second, I don't think I could bring myself to do it. Third, I could never live with myself. And fourth, I seriously doubt I could weasel out of of prison time and I ain't cut out for prison.

I reckon Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, so Malfoy and the rest of his scumbag family could keep their pathetic excuses for lives. Snape is still a good guy, I'm sure. Too bad Malfoy will die anyway, when I catch up with him...
Why is it that Draco is deserving of your wrath, but not Snape?

But Snape's position in the Tower scene is not directly comparable to Lily's at Godric's Hollow. Arguably Snape's choice saved not only his life, but also Draco's soul, as possibly Harry's life as well. If the Unbreakable Vow is fast acting, (something I admit we don't know at all!) then by choosing death he would be leaving Harry to deal with the situation alone. I tend to think Snape deduced Harry was present. Like Draco he would have noticed the two brooms; and I think he would have drawn the correct conclusion.
:clap: ! Yeah, what zgirnius said.

I hope Harry kills him 4 what he has done, the slimy brat tht he is:p
Why is it acceptable for Harry to kill Snape, but it was unacceptable for Snape to kill Dumbledore? Just because you don't like somebody, doesn't mean the are deserving of death or that you have the right to kill them. Snape has to face the consequences of his actions, but that means arrest, trial, and prison - not death. I also think that Harry's conscience might have some problems with this, even if Snape does turn out to be a loyal Death Eater. I don't think that Harry needs to suffer any more than he already has - and I don't even like him that much.

Is Snape is not evil, then from where did he learn all those spells when he came to Hogwatrs?? He seemed to have known more spells than half the seventh years. I dont think it was from his mother too, 'coz she doesnt seem to have been such a famous personality at Hogwarts, just a Gobstone champion. Moreover howcome Snape was allowed to use his wand, before joinng Hogwarts???
So he had an interest in spells and curses. He read outside of school at an advanced level. So what? It doesn't say anything about Snape's morality, or lack thereof. That's akin to saying that anyone who studies WWII and Hitler, when they don't have to, is evil. Pretty big assumption.

I also fail to see why his mother would need to be famous in order to teach him anything. I'm going to assume that you actually meant powerful/knowledgeable. Since his mother is barely mentioned, I don't think it would be wise to make any decisions regarding her knowledge or power. It was also never said that the spell/curses he knew were more advanced, just that he knew more of them. I don't see why a graduate of Hogwarts couldn't teach her son a few things before sending him off into the world. Hell, maybe her lack of popularity, and being bullied, are why she felt the need to teach him in the first place. A mother's love can't be that blind.

Using a wand when underage and not at school is illegal, but hardly indicative of evilness. Hermione said she had practiced a few simple spells when they they were on the Hogwarts Express (Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone) and Fred and George tried to get Ron to make an unbreakable vow (which requires a wand). None of these individuals is considered evil. I also believe that it was mentioned at some point that it was not uncommon for students to use their wand outside of school, it's just that they don't get caught.

hermione4

January 14th, 2006, 12:32 pm

What really happened, I believe, is that Snape came to Dumbledore sometime after Harry was born, and told him that Voldemort intended to come after Harrry and his parents. This enabled Dumbledore to warn them and suggest they protect themselves with the Fidelius Charm. In addition, after this conversation, Snape agreed to be work for Dumbledore. Snape went back to Voldemort as a spy. Dumbledore believed Snape was sorry not just because he said so, but because he did what he could to protect the Potters and was willing to take on the dangerous role of spy among the Death Eaters.
.

Ok that is a possibility. But did Voldemort tell Snape to go over to Dumbledores side with this valuable information??? I doubt it.
So if Snape did this out of his own accord, then Snape is neither on the dark side or on Dumbledores side right?? and he is an excellent Occlumens

Why is it acceptable for Harry to kill Snape, but it was unacceptable for Snape to kill Dumbledore? Just because you don't like somebody, doesn't mean the are deserving of death or that you have the right to kill them. Snape has to face the consequences of his actions, but that means arrest, trial, and prison - not death. I also think that Harry's conscience might have some problems with this, even if Snape does turn out to be a loyal Death Eater. I don't think that Harry needs to suffer any more than he already has - and I don't even like him that much.

OK look NO OFFENCE meant. That was just a possibility of mine. So Is Snape good?? If he is Please tell me How so?

Lord_Kalypso

January 14th, 2006, 12:45 pm

Why is it that Draco is deserving of your wrath, but not Snape?

-Like I said, I believe he was acting on Dumbledore's orders. I know Malfoy was doing it to save his family, but I still don't like him as a person.

Awiana

January 14th, 2006, 1:31 pm

lolli

January 14th, 2006, 1:32 pm

Dumbledore´s pleading - he just begged Snape to save him/give him a remedy potion.

Snape - is evil. I hate JKR 4 that, coz James was even WORSE than Draco Malfoy, so it is ALL JAMES´FAULT, but Snape is evil, i hate him too, Dumby rox.

Bradipo

January 14th, 2006, 3:15 pm

i don't think Snape is good, and i think that now Dumbledore is gone, i'll be back to Voldemort side....

winky22

January 14th, 2006, 6:14 pm

Just another odd point I came across when reading back through some of the books, when dumbledore and company burst into the fake moodys office why would snape have been shown in the foe glass if he was actually on voldemorts side. I mean sure him and barty may have disliked each other, but to be mortal enemies? Though I suppose it might be to big a give away if he wasn't shown.

Thoughts?

I like your thinking:tu:

Would he have? Isn't it to show you enemys and when you see the white of there eyes they are standing right behind you? I know it's something along those line. If Snape was a true enemy would have he been on it? At that time though did Voldie see him as gone by then? Yes, i think he did so he would be included as an enemy to him but then again i don't know everything about the foe glass it might be more intelligent (sp?) than we know.:shrug:

Using a wand when underage and not at school is illegal, but hardly indicative of evilness. Hermione said she had practiced a few simple spells when they they were on the Hogwarts Express (Philosopher's/Sorceror's Stone) and Fred and George tried to get Ron to make an unbreakable vow (which requires a wand). None of these individuals is considered evil. I also believe that it was mentioned at some point that it was not uncommon for students to use their wand outside of school, it's just that they don't get caught.

I do agree with you:tu:

The ministry can detect spells but not who did them. For example: Dobby used magic in privet Drive but with Harry being the only wizard in the house he got blamed for the magic.
Snape parents may have wanted him to learn some spells before going to Hogwarts for some reason. He wouldn't have got caught because there was another registered Wizard in the house/area.

Lord_Kalypso

January 14th, 2006, 6:33 pm

Blood_River

January 14th, 2006, 6:35 pm

1. Snape is too well-written for us to be certain whether he is or isn't evil, but if he is, it's no one's fault but his own. He's a 36 or 7 year-old-man; no amount of high-school bullying is an excuse for the things he (if evil) has done.

(ps: Let's not forget that James grew up to be a man who risked his life fighting evil in the OP and died protecting his family.)

2. It's pretty well-established that Snape returned to the good side (or pretended to) before the Potter's deaths since Snape took his post at Hogwarts on Voldemort's orders, and Bellatrix apparently knew this. Harry misunderstood.

I believe Snape might've been the spy who warned them when Voldemort targeted the Potters, but I can't for the life of me understand why Dumbledore wouldn't've told Harry this. It wouldn't've been necessary to tell him why.

Snape represents what Sirius had told Harry in OoTP that the world is not divided into simply good people and Death Eaters. There are people in that annoying gray area, like Umbridge, Fudge, Scrimgeour, Slughorn and so on who may not be the most pleasant individuals (entertaining to read about though) but they're not on Voldemort's side either.
Actually I think Sirius' point was that not all evil people are Death Eaters. I'd consider Umbridge every bit as evil as many of them, but she has her own agenda. But I basically agree with your point. JKR's driven home the idea that people are complicated. Some people want good ends and try to achieve them through bad means, some bad guys team up with good guys to get back at other bad guys they hate more (OT:like Spike & Buffy vs. Angelus at the end of S2). Some people just want what's best for themselves, but have different desires and are therefore contained. (LV & Fudge, for example).

Edited to Add:

Or, Snape was considered Barty's foe now because he was coming after him. He would've betrayed him to preserve his own cover with Dumbledore, no? It doesn't necessarily guarantee that they were on opposite sides of the LV-Order battle.

winky22

January 14th, 2006, 8:16 pm

Or, Snape was considered Barty's foe now because he was coming after him. He would've betrayed him to preserve his own cover with Dumbledore, no? It doesn't necessarily guarantee that they were on opposite sides of the LV-Order battle.

Yes i think you are right, he was coming after him and that would assume he is his foe and i don't think he can fool a foe Glass.

I still like the idea of him being in the Foe Glass there are a few ways to look at it but seeing as he was coming after him and discover who he really is i do believe that is why he was in the Glass.

random_musing

January 14th, 2006, 9:01 pm

Dumbledore´s pleading - he just begged Snape to save him/give him a remedy potion.
Erm...canon?Snape - is evil. I hate JKR 4 that, coz James was even WORSE than Draco Malfoy, so it is ALL JAMES´FAULT, but Snape is evil, i hate him too, Dumby rox.
It isn't James' fault for Snape killing Dumbledore. Is it James' fault for making a lot of Snape's time at Hogwarts hell? Yes. His fault for everything else he did in his life, not so much.

arithmancer

January 14th, 2006, 9:07 pm

Ok that is a possibility. But did Voldemort tell Snape to go over to Dumbledores side with this valuable information??? I doubt it.
So if Snape did this out of his own accord, then Snape is neither on the dark side or on Dumbledores side right?? and he is an excellent Occlumens

I agree Voldemort did not send Snape with this valuable information. And so, I agree with your conclusion that Snape did this on his own. It was his idea. BECAUSE it was his idea is the reason I think Dumbledore trusted Snape. To me, the most logical reason why Snape would decide to do something like this on his own is that he realized he really did not want to be responsible for the murders of the Potters and Harry. Which would indicate he does not really have what it takes to be a Death Eater, in my opinion. (and also, as I am speculating, in Dumbledore's). You iriginally wondered why Dumbledore would trust a Death Eater like Snape-well, because he saw evidence that Snaope was not a very good Death Eater after all...

Now, it is true that Snape is a good Occlumens. If he had some other reason for what he did, presumably he might be able to hide that from Dumbledore. What I can't figure out is what that other reason might be...which is why, like Dumbledore, I do tend to think snape was sincere in his 'return'.

I believe Snape might've been the spy who warned them when Voldemort targeted the Potters, but I can't for the life of me understand why Dumbledore wouldn't've told Harry this. It wouldn't've been necessary to tell him why.

I do not see how else Dumbledore's comments to Harry in HBP could be construed. Snape MUST be the spy. Snape came to Dumbledore and 'returned' to the good side before Voldemort's fall. He didn't just come and say, 'Here I am, I want to be your spy!', he must have made some attempt to convince Dumbledore of his sincerity. How could he do this without mentioning the Prophecy or the Potters? And if he had somehow avoided mentioning this whole topic, why on earth would Dumbledore believe in the sincerity of his remorse about the Potters and consider it the reason that he returned? He did not say 'Harry, Snape was the spy that warned me Voldemort was planning to kill you and your parents', true, but I don't think this was because he was trying to hide this fact-rather more because he thought he had more-or-less already said it adn it had made no impression. He was probably hoping this would sink in with Harry once the initial shock of the discovery that Snape was the eavesdropper wore off. There is a point at which Dumbledore considers telling Harry something more, then reverts to the oft-repeated 'I trust Severus Snape completely.' (OK, the completely is new :) ). I do not think he was planning to restate his point more clearly (by explicitly saying Snape was the spy.) Rahter, I suppose he was considering making some other revelation about Snape. (Which is of course speculative, because at this point we have no canon for what such a revelation might be.)

He did not bring up the subject earlier in the series because he was covering up the fact that Snape told the prophecy to Voldemort in the first place.

Blood_River

January 14th, 2006, 10:35 pm

He did not bring up the subject earlier in the series because he was covering up the fact that Snape told the prophecy to Voldemort in the first place.
Harry's known since PoA that someone warned Dumbledore Voldemort was targetting the Potters, since GoF that Snape was a former Death Eater who switched sides before Voldemort's downfall, and since OotP about the prophecy and the eavesdropper. Dumbledore could easily, at any one of these times, have told Harry that Snape was the spy who warned his parents without telling him about why they were targetted or who was the eavesdropper.

And when Harry figured out that Snape was the eavesdropper, why not tell him then? I don't believe for a minute that Dumbledore thought Harry would infer it or that it was as good as said. Calling someone remorseful is not the same as saying they took actions to repair the damage they'd caused or what those actions were. He had no reason I can think of for not saying explicitly to Harry at this point what Snape had done to protect his family. Harry's anger alone should have given him an indication that Harry didn't pick up on it, and besides, in the moments before he says "I am sure, I trust Severus Snape completely." he seems to be making up his mind about something -- he decides not to tell Harry what it is that caused him to trust Snape.

So while I agree, that Snape being the spy who warned him about Voldemort targetting the Potters is the most logical explanation I can come up with for Dumbledore's trust in him, I really have trouble believing any of the suggested reasons for not telling Harry this.

mrTony

January 15th, 2006, 12:53 am

Might it be that Snape was trying to save James' life because of the life-debt? Ofcourse it doesnt indicate whether he is on which side...r maybe it can, but he has equally good deeds as bad [as we see them], btu I sincerely beleive that he is good.
I agree that the argument of how poeple are complicated and are not bound to one side, wither good or bad, but have many facets and that Snape is one of these types of poeple.

Silvia_Almeida

January 15th, 2006, 1:04 am

People, people, people... there's something more to it. He killed Dumbledore, so that puts him on Voldemort side. Is there anything else to be said?

random_musing

January 15th, 2006, 1:09 am

People, people, people... there's something more to it. He killed Dumbledore, so that puts him on Voldemort side.
Have you ever even considered the possibility that him killing Dumbledore wasn't for Voldemort's side. The death could have been planned, an idea that many Snape supporters believe to be true. The excuse of Snape killing Dumbledore = evil doesn't cut it.
Is there anything else to be said?
Yes, there is. :)

frizbog

January 15th, 2006, 1:12 am

People, people, people... there's something more to it. He killed Dumbledore, so that puts him on Voldemort side. Is there anything else to be said?
Sarcasm on
Of course not! Gosh, I feel stupid! All those 289 posts before me were a tremendous waste of time.
Sarcasm off

Obviously there is more to be said. Reasonable people can come to different conclusions, given the ambiguities. Perhaps if you actually read the arguments being made here in the thread (your point, believe it or not, has been considered by most of us in this thread) and posted your own thoughtful commentary, we might have a meaningful discussion. Patronizing statements won't convince anyone.

iElement

January 15th, 2006, 1:33 am

I would have to say that Snape is good. My reasoning is that when he killed Dumbledore the spell he used, though he said Avada Kedavra, was not the unforgivable curse. If he were to use it he would have had to truly want plessure from his death. Also every other time the killing curse was used it didn't even move the person, it just plainly killed on the spot. The spell Snape used knocked Dumbledore off the roof. So I think it was Dumbledore's plan to die. (If he did.)

(for more facts on either side your on goto www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com)

hermione4

January 15th, 2006, 10:55 am

Uh uh, I'm really confused right now. I have too possibilities
1) Snape is evil because he knew spells more than HALF THE SEVENTH YEARS put together. I know you are allowed to do spells outside Hogwatrs like Hermione said, but these are N.E.W.T level spells not simple ones.

2) Snape is good because I'm sure he saw the two broom on the tower and he had no choice but o kill DUmbledore. But why did he spare Harry? To save him for LV?? or was he just saving his skin because thats what James did for Snape??

Someone PLS help me:lol:

winky22

January 15th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Sarcasm on
Of course not! Gosh, I feel stupid! All those 289 posts before me were a tremendous waste of time.
Sarcasm off

Obviously there is more to be said. Reasonable people can come to different conclusions, given the ambiguities. Perhaps if you actually read the arguments being made here in the thread (your point, believe it or not, has been considered by most of us in this thread) and posted your own thoughtful commentary, we might have a meaningful discussion. Patronizing statements won't convince anyone.

:lol: :rotfl: Couldn't have written it better myself.

Uh uh, I'm really confused right now. I have too possibilities
1) Snape is evil because he knew spells more than HALF THE SEVENTH YEARS put together. I know you are allowed to do spells outside Hogwatrs like Hermione said, but these are N.E.W.T level spells not simple ones.

Snape is a very inteligent and powerful wizard and i'm sure at an eaily age he wanted to be very knowlegalble in magic for a reason i am not sure of yet.
He seems to me a man who would practice and practice until he got something right the way he wanted.
Don't forget Harry can produce a full Patronus and as Lupin said it's very far from the ordinarry wizarding level but with pratice he was able to produce one. Also we have to remember that Hermione said she over heard Snape saying to Dumbledore (in POA) that only a powerful wizard could produce one.

What i'm trying to say is although certain spell can be past a level for a person, with pratice they can be accomplished.

2) Snape is good because I'm sure he saw the two broom on the tower and he had no choice but o kill DUmbledore. But why did he spare Harry? To save him for LV?? or was he just saving his skin because thats what James did for Snape??

Someone PLS help me:lol:

He killed Dumbledore on d's orders so i assume D would have left him with knowledge and promises. I would assume that D told Snape to look after Harry and try to help him without him knowing of corse because, now Harry would never take any help from Snape.
Now i am assuming that Snape knows about the Horcrux's but i am not totally sure? Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Awiana

January 15th, 2006, 3:00 pm

Now i am assuming that Snape knows about the Horcrux's but i am not totally sure? Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

I think Snape knows about the Horcruxes, but I admit I don’t have any solid canon proof for that. I’m a firm believer in the “Snape is Dumbledore’s man through and through”-theory, and it makes sense to me that Dumbledore would tell Snape about the Horcruxes. I just don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t, since he knows Snape is on his side and is working to defeat Voldemort. But this of course isn’t proof.

But there are some things in the books that I think suggest that Snape does know about Horcruxes. For one thing, Snape saved Dumbledore’s life after he destroyed the ring Horcrux. It seems to me that Snape would need to know exactly what kind of a curse it was and what happened to Dumbledore in order to heal him. Or at least he would want to know what on earth Dumbledore had been doing to get so terribly injured.

It seems that the Death Eaters don’t know about the Horcruxes, but they know Voldemort has done something to escape death: “And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?” (GoF p.702 UK paperback). I don’t think it’s impossible that Snape, who is intelligent and knows a lot about the Dark Arts, might have deduced on his own that Voldemort has a Horcrux.

And in HBP when Dumbledore tells Harry to go tell Snape what has happened he doesn’t mention that Harry can’t tell him about the Horcrux. Maybe Dumbledore only meant that Harry was supposed to tell Snape about the Dark Mark, and not that they were hunting for Horcruxes, but still, it didn’t occur to him to tell that Harry can’t mention anything about Horcruxes to Snape.

I don’t think there’s really anything in the books that could be used as definite proof one way or the other. I believe that Snape knows about Horcruxes, it makes sense to me and there’s nothing in the books to contradict that. But that’s of course just my opinion. :)

arithmancer

January 15th, 2006, 3:41 pm

I think Snape knows about the Horcruxes, but I admit I don’t have any solid canon proof for that. I’m a firm believer in the “Snape is Dumbledore’s man through and through”-theory, and it makes sense to me that Dumbledore would tell Snape about the Horcruxes. I just don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t, since he knows Snape is on his side and is working to defeat Voldemort. But this of course isn’t proof.

:tu: I also think Snape knows about the Horcruxes.But I don't think Dumbledore would necessarily tell him unless there was a specific reason to, or unless he had learned about theoir existence somehow on his own and brought the matter up to Dumbledore. It is a very important secret (one which, as far as we know, he has only shared with Harry.) And Snape, even if he is totally trustworthy, is not such a safe person to tell a secret. He must occasionally come into personal contact with Voldemort, an extremely powerful Legilimens and Dark Wizard. There is the possibility he might slip up someday.

However, you may be right about the Ring curse. Snape may have needed to know exactly what happened to treat the resulting magical injury. I also agree there is a reasonable possibility he would have figured it out for himself. It seems to me that as a student, Snape would have read the Dark Arts related books in the Restricted Section (including Magick Moste Evile, the book in which Hermione found mention of Horcruxes.) He seems to be very interested in, and knowledgable about, the Dark Arts, by all accounts. If that piqued his curiosity, I think he would have eventually found someplace or someone to give him more information on what a Horcrux is. And once he knows such a thing is possible-well, how else would Voldemort be able to come back from death?

And in HBP when Dumbledore tells Harry to go tell Snape what has happened he doesn’t mention that Harry can’t tell him about the Horcrux. Maybe Dumbledore only meant that Harry was supposed to tell Snape about the Dark Mark, and not that they were hunting for Horcruxes, but still, it didn’t occur to him to tell that Harry can’t mention anything about Horcruxes to Snape.

Ooh, this never even occured to me! Even though I never thought Harry was being sent to get Snape because of the Dark Mark, but because Snape would have the best chance to help Dumbledore with the effects of the evil green potion. It would be very easy to let something about Horcruxes slip out in such a conversation, adn DUmbledore does not caution Harry at all...

winky22

January 15th, 2006, 4:17 pm

I think Snape knows about the Horcruxes, but I admit I don’t have any solid canon proof for that. I’m a firm believer in the “Snape is Dumbledore’s man through and through”-theory, and it makes sense to me that Dumbledore would tell Snape about the Horcruxes. I just don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t, since he knows Snape is on his side and is working to defeat Voldemort. But this of course isn’t proof.

But there are some things in the books that I think suggest that Snape does know about Horcruxes. For one thing, Snape saved Dumbledore’s life after he destroyed the ring Horcrux. It seems to me that Snape would need to know exactly what kind of a curse it was and what happened to Dumbledore in order to heal him. Or at least he would want to know what on earth Dumbledore had been doing to get so terribly injured.

It seems that the Death Eaters don’t know about the Horcruxes, but they know Voldemort has done something to escape death: “And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?” (GoF p.702 UK paperback). I don’t think it’s impossible that Snape, who is intelligent and knows a lot about the Dark Arts, might have deduced on his own that Voldemort has a Horcrux.

And in HBP when Dumbledore tells Harry to go tell Snape what has happened he doesn’t mention that Harry can’t tell him about the Horcrux. Maybe Dumbledore only meant that Harry was supposed to tell Snape about the Dark Mark, and not that they were hunting for Horcruxes, but still, it didn’t occur to him to tell that Harry can’t mention anything about Horcruxes to Snape.

I don’t think there’s really anything in the books that could be used as definite proof one way or the other. I believe that Snape knows about Horcruxes, it makes sense to me and there’s nothing in the books to contradict that. But that’s of course just my opinion. :)

Yes i believe he did know now but then we can only just assume, after my post i thought about the ring and how D mentioned that without the help from Snape his injury may have been alot worse. I am sure if Snape was there at the time then he must have known.

I don't think all the DE's know about Voldies Horcrux's i just think that they know he has took steps to prevent his self from mortal death.

Like you said with D telling harry to get Snape he must have known because he didn't tell him not to say about the Horcrux's.

hp_fanatic_101

January 15th, 2006, 4:45 pm

I know you're gonna hate this, but I think that Snape's evil. I don't want to beleve it, but I was re-reading OotP the other day, and after Harry tries to Crucio Bellatrix, she tells him that to preform a real, working, unforgivable curse, you need to want the pain, and to enjoy it. So either Dumbledore isn't really dead, because he had planned it, and Snape didn't want to do it, or Snape is evil.

stevenazari

January 15th, 2006, 5:40 pm

I think people are reading way too deep into evidence here. Im just going to break this down for people.

There is no way dumbledore and snape planned the death,

FOR:
Dumbledore never even knew they were coming. He asked malfoy how he managed to get death eaters into hogwarts, something dumbledore would never allow if he knew it was going to be done. Snape knew of what was going to happen, he would have told dumbledore when talking with malfoy. But dumbledore asking malfoy how he did it shows he didnt tell him.

AGAINST:
Snape knew what malfoy was doing and told dumbledore, thus being able to plan the death. When we seen the havada cadavra in action, sedric digory didnt go flying from a standing position, the undertaker didnt go flying when he got killed, so why did dumbledore, from a slumped position on steps get hurled into the air and out OVER the balcony out of sight. He was given PLENTY of time to make a false body and make a get away.

Conclusion
Dumbledore pleaded with snape NOT to kill him, it was intentional to kill dumbledore as draco was instructed to do it. Snape was even offering help on the matter so he was fully aware what was going on. Dumbledore would never have allowed death eaters into hogwarts and would never allow malfoy to perform his task. Snape's expression when killing dumbledore also showed a pure hate for the man, and showed no flinch in killing him, nor feeling. Dumbledore was clearly outsmarted and had no idea what was going on. He trusted Snape too much and as a result was betrayed by staff and student alike.

Snape told dumbledore the potters were going to be targets

For:
Snape is a professor at the school and dumbledore would not give someone he doesnt trust such a position. Even though he never gave him DADA position until the 6th book. Snape has been trusted with many tasks (turn in crouch jnr, head of slytherin etc), Snape told dumbledore he was the spy that told voldermolt he heard the prophecy.

Against:
There is no reason to say snape told Dumbledore the potters were being targeted. He confessed to hearing the prophecy but not to their mark. He did not like James potter and would like to see him killed. Lilly would just be another death. Snape was instructed to become a professor at Hogwarts, telling dumbledore this secret would never get him into hogwarts alone. It would have to be something else that had dumbledore believe he was no longer a death eater. Personally I believe it was Regulus Black that told of the potters mark. And why not? he's Sirius's brother, and knew that Sirius was james and lilly's best friend, he got cold feet when it came to killing his brothers best friend who I am sure he once socialised with. He told of the mark and fled, thus, Voldermolt went to kill Harry and james potter, and he sent his death eaters to kill Regulus.

Conclusion: It was not Snape that told of James and Lilly's mark. Snape used another way of gaining so much trust.

Snape helped dumbledore when he recieved injury from the first horcrux

For: Doing this would help dumbledore trust him even more, this may have been done AFTER the horcrux was destroyed thus snape would have had nothing more profitable to do than to gain his trust.

Against: No argument.

Conclusion: Snape used this as an aid to gain dumbledores trust and I believe it worked.

Snape/ Death eaters did/Do not know of horcruxes

For:
Snape is only referenced to helping dumbledore after being hurt from destroying the ring horcrux,

Against:
In the chamber of secrets, it is Lucius Malfoy who gives jenny the Diary horcrux, she did not just find it. As a result I am certain that lucius would have told other death eaters of his possetion or Voldermolt would have told them while he told lucius. Thus everyone knew, possibly including Snape while he was a death eater. Snape never told Dumbledore of Horcruxes, maybe he knows but is not telling. Maybe he knows of them but does not know their location. There is no evidence that he does not know of horcruxes, but I am sure that dumbledore would have discussed this with his proffesors at some point. The horcrux was given to lucius before Voldermolts attack on harry, this seems evident because firstly lucius did not know if Voldermolt was alive until GOF, this also gives a strong posibility that snape was present as we do not know when snape stopped becoming a death eater.

Conclusion: Death eaters knew of horcruxes and so does snape.

Final conclusion: Snape is with voldermolt. The evidence is overwhelming in comparing the for and against.

As much as people would like to see him good, I cant see it being the case. Im not sure if I covered all of your theories but I believe I covered most.

hp_fanatic_101

January 15th, 2006, 5:45 pm

i totaly agree Final conclusion: Snape is with voldermolt. The evidence is overwhelming in comparing the for and against.

As much as people would like to see him good, I cant see it being the case

Conclusion: Death eaters knew of horcruxes and so does snape.

stevenazari

January 15th, 2006, 6:18 pm

I think snape has been extremely well written, the best mystery of it all thus far, but I think from what we have we can only lead to assume the worst. Even if you want snape to be good, You can only go on what you have been presented. Just the facts.

gertiekeddle

January 15th, 2006, 6:22 pm

Even if you want snape to be good, You can only go on what you have been presented. Just the facts.:agree: ...but that's why some people think he's still good. There are a lot of hints (all discussed in this and other threads, so I'm sorry, I can't tell new things now) ie that Snape just blocked Harry's spells when he was at his flight from Hogwarts. It's not a proove of him being good, but we can assume that he would have killed, badly injured or at least took Harry with him, if he were evil.

stevenazari

January 15th, 2006, 6:28 pm

Awiana

January 15th, 2006, 7:36 pm

I also think Snape knows about the Horcruxes.But I don't think Dumbledore would necessarily tell him unless there was a specific reason to, or unless he had learned about theoir existence somehow on his own and brought the matter up to Dumbledore. It is a very important secret (one which, as far as we know, he has only shared with Harry.) And Snape, even if he is totally trustworthy, is not such a safe person to tell a secret. He must occasionally come into personal contact with Voldemort, an extremely powerful Legilimens and Dark Wizard. There is the possibility he might slip up someday.
That’s a good point. When Voldemort is using Legilimency on Snape, it’s probably the easier for Snape the less information he has to hide, and therefore telling Snape any unnecessary information is a risk. On the other hand, maybe Snape could have helped Dumbledore identify and locate the Horcruxes if he knew Dumbledore was trying to do that. But you’re right, maybe it’s not that likely that Dumbledore told him about them.

I know you're gonna hate this, but I think that Snape's evil. I don't want to beleve it, but I was re-reading OotP the other day, and after Harry tries to Crucio Bellatrix, she tells him that to preform a real, working, unforgivable curse, you need to want the pain, and to enjoy it. So either Dumbledore isn't really dead, because he had planned it, and Snape didn't want to do it, or Snape is evil.
Actually, she tells him that to use Unforgivable Curses you need to mean them. I think she was talking about the Cruciatus curse when she said that you need to want to cause pain and enjoy it. It seems likely to me that that's the curse they were talking about since it's the one Harry attempted to use. And it just doesn’t seem to make much sense that you would need to enjoy causing pain when casting the Imperius curse, for example.

random_musing

January 15th, 2006, 8:47 pm

I don't want to beleve it, but I was re-reading OotP the other day, and after Harry tries to Crucio Bellatrix, she tells him that to preform a real, working, unforgivable curse, you need to want the pain, and to enjoy it. So either Dumbledore isn't really dead, because he had planned it, and Snape didn't want to do it, or Snape is evil.
To perform an unforgiveable you need to be most, and foremost, to mean them. Of course Bellatrix would add the parts about enjoying the pain and all that because, frankly, shes sadistic. Lilly would just be another death.
Any proof for this?

gertiekeddle

January 15th, 2006, 8:55 pm

He didnt kill him because voldermolt had already instructed everyone not to kill harry, snape was quoted when the brother and sister attacked him at the gates "No! Voldermolt said not to touch harry" or something like that I've forgotten now but I know thats his reason. Snape would kill slowly I know, he hates him with a passion.You're right with the fact, but as it was Snape, who told the Death Eaters not to kill him, I assume Snape is still a protector of Harry as he was in the first book.

It's still unexplained: he didn't hurt Harry badly, he blocked his curses eight times. Even if he really didn't kill him, because Voldemort wanted him not to do, he didn't take Harry with him or something similar.

frizbog

January 15th, 2006, 9:42 pm

He didnt kill him because voldermolt had already instructed everyone not to kill harry, snape was quoted when the brother and sister attacked him at the gates "No! Voldermolt said not to touch harry" or something like that I've forgotten now but I know thats his reason. Snape would kill slowly I know, he hates him with a passion.
You only know that because Snape said so, and we know that Snape has been lying to one side or the other for six books now. Snape's words cannot be used to prove his loyalty to one side or the other unless you can find incontrovertible facts that either contradict something he says or corroborate something he says.

How do you know he was telling the truth there?

Blood_River

January 15th, 2006, 9:59 pm

I don't think Snape knows about the horcruxes. I think Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Voldemort are the only ones alive who do. I don't have absolute beyond a doubt proof, but I don't believe Dumbledore would tell him -- simply because he tells as few people as possible, and even McGonnagall didn't know about them.

It's possible that Snape may have put 2 and 2 together and speculated the Voldemort might've survived because of a horcrux, but I doubt he knows about multiple ones. Some people have speculated that he might've figured it out from the diary incident, but remember, Dumbledore only figured it out because Harry's specific account of the way in which Riddle acted -- particularly the way in which he stopped wanting to carry out his original mission and to lure Harry to him, to find out more about him, etc.

Lucius obviously never figured out what the diary was, and none of the other people who've since heard the story seem to know either.

As for the evil vs. good and going on the evidence -- the problem is that JKR likes to surprise us. Re-read some of the pre-HBP editorials, maybe 2 out of 50 guess that it might be Snape, most people are convinced it isn't. Why? Because before HBP came out we didn't know that Snape was a half-blood (although we didn't know otherwise), and we didn't know anything about his family, history, mother's maiden name or why on earth he might be called a prince. The people who guessed right were basically going off of intuition and their own impressions of literature and writing styles -- that Snape was going to become more important in the next plot.

So I don't think it's fair to rule anything out just because we don't know it for a fact. I mean this is "Divination" -- the whole point is speculative.

If I had to guess now, I'd say that Snape is conflicted. I'd say that he changes his minds between the two sides and is torn, and that while he didn't want to kill Dumbledore and didn't do it for Voldemort, Dumbledore never expressly ordered him to do it (although he may have said something vague, leaving Snape in an even more ambiguous position than before).

Anyway, I really have to go and do my chores now.

stevenazari

January 15th, 2006, 10:00 pm

because voldermolt has already stated that he alone will kill harry.

"The boy is mine to finish" - Voldermolt, GOF.

Voldermolt believes in the prophecy, so he thinks he alone MUST kill him, therefore he has told the DE not to kill him. Also there is no evidence what so ever he has lied to the DE or voldermolt. Either way I have a very good feeling voldermolt has told all not to kill harry. If he hadnt, how would snape know voldermolt said it? why would the DE believe snape? Why hasnt snape told harry of his plans?

Why would snape take harry as a hostage? harry would be the most awkward hostage ever in his state of mind, harry would probably kill them both in mid disaperating.

lucius knew about the book as a horcrux. Why would he give a weasley a book. He aint a paedophile that for sure.... then again....

arithmancer

January 15th, 2006, 10:31 pm

There is no way dumbledore and snape planned the death,

FOR:
Dumbledore never even knew they were coming.

Granted. But he did know that Voldemort wanted him killed, as he also indicated to Draco. So there could have been a plan without a specific date and time set. If the moment came that it was necessary.
Snape knew of what was going to happen, he would have told dumbledore when talking with malfoy.
I find this etremely unlikely. Snape's life is riding on the success of Draco's mission, and Draco's survival. If he knew the Death Eaters were coming, he would have been there to join them immediately. He would not have counted on McGonagall sending Flitwick to let him know what was happening. We saw Draco refuse to discuss his plan with Draco, and use Occlumency, and there is no reason to suppose this ever changed.

Snape's expression when killing dumbledore also showed a pure hate for the man, and showed no flinch in killing him, nor feeling.

Or, it showed pure hate of what he was about to do. Sort of like Harry, in the previous chapter. Also, if Snape felt nothing about this killing, why a few minutes later is his emotional pain compared to the pain of a dog trapped in a burning house?

Snape told dumbledore the potters were going to be targets

Snape told dumbledore he was the spy that told voldermolt he heard the prophecy. [/QUOTE]
Indeed. ANd DUmbledore states that Snape's remorse over how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy was the reason for his return. I fail to see how he could draw this conclusion if Snape had NOT mentioned how Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy. And if he did, he was saying Voldemort intended to kill the Potters.

Conclusion: It was not Snape that told of James and Lilly's mark. Snape used another way of gaining so much trust.

Yes, what?

Conclusion: Death eaters knew of horcruxes and so does snape.

Could you clarify how Snape's knowledge of Horcruxes contributes to your overall conclusion that he is evil? I agree it is likely Snape knows somethign about Horcruxes, yet I draw the opposite conclusion. I noticed in HBP, the Horcrues chapter, Dumbledore tells Harry "When Voldemort learned that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its power, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold." He is told...by whom? By Snape, of course. I think Snape was sure to mention this to DUmbledore because he suspected its significance.

I know you're gonna hate this, but I think that Snape's evil. I don't want to beleve it, but I was re-reading OotP the other day, and after Harry tries to Crucio Bellatrix, she tells him that to preform a real, working, unforgivable curse, you need to want the pain, and to enjoy it. So either Dumbledore isn't really dead, because he had planned it, and Snape didn't want to do it, or Snape is evil.

There was a Death Eater killed by friendly fire in the raid on Hogwarts. We are told explicitly that he was hit by a Killing Curse aimed Lupin by another Death Eater. So if your interpretation of what it takes to use the Avada Kedavra successfully is correct, the worst we can say is that he would really enjoy someone's death.

Personally, I wonder if what we saw on the Tower wasn't Snape failing to cast an Avada Kedavra at Dumbledore with the requisite evil intent. Certain anomalous feastures of this spell listed most recently in stevenazari's post could be a consequence of this fact. We know a failed Crucio has a physical effect-Harry's threw Bella off her feet. WHy not a physical effect for a failed Avada Kedavra as well?

stevenazari

January 15th, 2006, 11:03 pm

Granted. But he did know that Voldemort wanted him killed, as he also indicated to Draco. So there could have been a plan without a specific date and time set. If the moment came that it was necessary.

There is no proof of him and dumbledore staging a death, dumbledore always knew voldermolt wanted him dead and to have it staged with a former death eater is asking too much trust considering he wouldnt even give him the dada position.

I find this etremely unlikely. Snape's life is riding on the success of Draco's mission, and Draco's survival. If he knew the Death Eaters were coming, he would have been there to join them immediately. He would not have counted on McGonagall sending Flitwick to let him know what was happening. We saw Draco refuse to discuss his plan with Draco, and use Occlumency, and there is no reason to suppose this ever changed.

Yes his life is riding on draco's success which further indicates his dedication to being a death eater. Draco did not want any of snape's help therefore he would not tell him when it was going to happen other than "soon".

Or, it showed pure hate of what he was about to do. Sort of like Harry, in the previous chapter. Also, if Snape felt nothing about this killing, why a few minutes later is his emotional pain compared to the pain of a dog trapped in a burning house?

I didnt say he felt nothing about dumbledores killing, I said he did it with pure hate. His face was that of a dog trapped in a burning house because he wanted to kill harry so bad, but couldnt. If he killed harry voldermolt would have killed him.

I dont know WHAT snape used to gains dumbledores trust, but simply turning around and saying "oh - yeah you got me, Im a death eater, I told voldermolt of that prophecy thing, sorry about that by the way... any chance I can be a teacher now?".... no it aint happenin is it.

Could you clarify how Snape's knowledge of Horcruxes contributes to your overall conclusion that he is evil? I agree it is likely Snape knows somethign about Horcruxes, yet I draw the opposite conclusion. I noticed in HBP, the Horcrues chapter, Dumbledore tells Harry "When Voldemort learned that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its power, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold." He is told...by whom? By Snape, of course. I think Snape was sure to mention this to DUmbledore because he suspected its significance.

My statement is not a direct indication of snape being evil but it does aid it. Snape knew of the horcruxes. I have a feeling he knows what they are also but I have no evidence to back that up, other than he was voldermolts no. 2. He did not aid dumbledore in his quests other than healing his hand. Telling dumbledore of the diaries significance is by no means important. It is in the past and dealt with. If anything it would only strengthen dumbledores trust in him.

arithmancer

January 16th, 2006, 12:07 am

to have it staged with a former death eater is asking too much trust considering he wouldnt even give him the dada position.

We now have a far better reason for Dumbledore's refusal to give him the DADA position. To give him that position is to lose him within a year, after all, because of the jinx on the position. Lack of trust had nothing to do with it. Anyway, isn't it a bit silly to suppose that teaching Defense is going to corrupt a man whom one is at the same time sending to spy on Death Eaters, who are likely to perform actual Dark Spells while he is around? (Or even, invite him to participate in such tempting activities?)

Yes his life is riding on draco's success which further indicates his dedication to being a death eater. Draco did not want any of Snape's help therefore he would not tell him when it was going to happen other than "soon".

I do not buy that Snape knew Death Eaters were coming. If I did, I would assert that this is what the argument in the forest was about-Snape told Dumbledore about the Death Eaters coming someday soon, and then Dumbledore created the plan. You can't argue there could be no plan since Dumbledore did not know about it, if Snape knew. Because if Snape knew, he certainly COULD have told him.

I didnt say he felt nothing about dumbledores killing, I said he did it with pure hate. His face was that of a dog trapped in a burning house because he wanted to kill harry so bad, but couldnt. If he killed harry voldermolt would have killed him.

That's a new one for me...though in this case I would imagine he would have been a bit slower in stopping the Death Eater who was Crucioing Harry.

I dont know WHAT snape used to gains dumbledores trust, but simply turning around and saying "oh - yeah you got me, Im a death eater, I told voldermolt of that prophecy thing, sorry about that by the way... any chance I can be a teacher now?".... no it aint happenin is it.
I agree. Supposing that Snape is the one who told about the Potters is parsimonious-it does not require us to assume the existence of an additional unknown reason for Dumbledore's trust.
By the way, you did not explain why Dumbledore believes that remorse over Voldemort's interpretation of the prophecy was the reason for Snape's return. (Or, why he lied to Harry about this.)

My statement is not a direct indication of snape being evil but it does aid it. Snape knew of the horcruxes. I have a feeling he knows what they are also but I have no evidence to back that up, other than he was voldermolts no. 2. He did not aid dumbledore in his quests other than healing his hand. Telling dumbledore of the diaries significance is by no means important. It is in the past and dealt with. If anything it would only strengthen dumbledores trust in him.
Oh, yes, now I get it!:cool: If Snape knows what specific objects the Horcruxes are, or where they are hidden, that WOULD be a reason to suppose he is evil.

stevenazari

January 16th, 2006, 1:23 am

I dont know if your being sarcastic there but w/e

isn't it a bit silly to suppose that teaching Defense is going to corrupt a man whom one is at the same time sending to spy on Death Eaters, who are likely to perform actual Dark Spells while he is around? (Or even, invite him to participate in such tempting activities?)

erm where in my post did I say teaching defence would "corrupt" him?

And as a double spy, why would snape tell dumbledore that he is marked for death? he could say anything. As a spy I would have thought dumbledore being marked for death would be something to report about dont you?

Snape said that dumbledore wouldnt give him the position because dumbledore didnt trust him, not because of some jinx.

We have no evidence that snape did or did not perform any curse so you cannot use that statement. All we know is that snape thought he was dead which is clerified in the half blood prince start.

That's a new one for me...though in this case I would imagine he would have been a bit slower in stopping the Death Eater who was Crucioing Harry.

he doesnt exactly have time to wait all day for the 2 to torture harry - they are escaping, not fooling around.

By the way, you did not explain why Dumbledore believes that remorse over Voldemort's interpretation of the prophecy was the reason for Snape's return. (Or, why he lied to Harry about this.)

Erm I didnt say it was the reason for snape's return I said it wasnt the reason for his return.

Snape came to hogwarts under voldermolts orders, he simply told dumbledore of voldermolts plans and knew of the prophecy.

I do not buy that Snape knew Death Eaters were coming. If I did, I would assert that this is what the argument in the forest was about-Snape told Dumbledore about the Death Eaters coming someday soon, and then Dumbledore created the plan.

I said snape didnt know when they were coming.

You can't argue there could be no plan since Dumbledore did not know about it, if Snape knew. Because if Snape knew, he certainly COULD have told him.

Im saying snape knew because he did. He wouldnt have spoken to draco about it otherwise, and even the case, dumbledore did not know he was marked for death or he wouldnt have gone to hogwarts in his state after drinking the potion and he would have been more careful about disaporating so not to get noticed.

Snape ran through the shield and could have disarmed it but he didnt, he went on without getting others.

Im not sure if your saying snape is good or bad, Im saying he's bad but anyway,

if there was a deciding factor on showing your true allegiance it was at that point. NOBODY would want dumbledore to die, he is the head of school and the order. He is the best they have against Voldermolt and the only one voldermolt is affraid of. Taking dumbledore out would be making harry an easy target. Dont you think that is something that should not happen? Dont you think killing the orders strongest member is something snape should not do? snape knew it was going to happen, knowing there was DE members in hogwarts he knew what they were planning to do. But instead of preventing it, he went ahead with it and didnt take anyone up with him. He knew he wasnt going to take on what was up there, he knew dumbledore was the focal point of the attack but he chose to go alone and kill dumbledore himself with not a moment to lose, when dumbledore said for him not to.

Im going on facts only and Im not assuming anything. what facts do you have to support snape's "good cause".

frizbog

January 16th, 2006, 2:53 am

because voldermolt has already stated that he alone will kill harry.

"The boy is mine to finish" - Voldermolt, GOF.
Voldermolt believes in the prophecy, so he thinks he alone MUST kill him, therefore he has told the DE not to kill him.
True, but you are extrapolating from "I alone will kill him" to "Nobody else can do anything to him at all including use the cruciatus curse" (which Snape made a death eater stop doing).
Also there is no evidence what so ever he has lied to the DE or voldermolt. Do you have proof he has lied to Dumbledore either? We know he's lied to somebody -- now who was it? This is proof of the mastery of JKR's work!!!! She has made it so you cannot prove by direct quotes to whom he is loyal!
Either way I have a very good feeling voldermolt has told all not to kill harry. If he hadnt, how would snape know voldermolt said it? why would the DE believe snape? Why hasnt snape told harry of his plans? I agree that Voldemort told all the Death Eaters not to kill Harry. But Snape is a good liar - he's been successfully lying to one side or the other for 16 years - and good lies include some truth in them to make them believable. I think the Death Eaters believe him partly because his lies have this truth mixed in (the same reason you do, apparently) and because voldemort doesn't share his information and plans with *any* of his death eaters. If Bellatrix were so much in the inner circle, why was she asking Snape why Voldemort trusts him? Why didn't she already *know* what Voldemort thinks of Snape, directly from Voldemort herself? The Death Eaters live in an insecure world of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about where they stand with each other and with Voldemort, and Snape plays on this. If you take Snape at his word that he is a good actor and can fool all the white hats, then he can just as easily be a good actor and fool all the dark hats too.
Why would snape take harry as a hostage? harry would be the most awkward hostage ever in his state of mind, harry would probably kill them both in mid disaperating.We see at the end of HBP that Harry is clearly no match for Snape in a duel. If Snape wanted to take Harry along, it would have been a piece of cake, I think.

arithmancer

January 16th, 2006, 3:16 am

I dont know if your being sarcastic there but w/e
erm where in my post did I say teaching defence would "corrupt" him?

My apologies, you did not. :) I misunderstood. Your argument is, I now understand, based on Snape's own words in Spinner's End, that Dumbledore did not trust him and so he did not get the DADA job he coveted. I thought you were making a different point. DUmbledore told Harry 'I trust Severus Snape completely'. It is my judgment of the two characters and the contexts in which they told their stories that Snape was far more likely to have been lying at Spinner's End to Bella than Dumbledore was to be lying to Harry. Since I believe Dumbledore was not lying to Harry, distrust of Snape was not the reason he was not given the DADA post in the past.

And as a double spy, why would snape tell dumbledore that he is marked for death? he could say anything. As a spy I would have thought dumbledore being marked for death would be something to report about dont you?

Yes, it is. And the textual evidence suggests to me that Snape DID report this interesting fact. Dumbledore tells Draco he knew of his mission.

We have no evidence that snape did or did not perform any curse so you cannot use that statement. All we know is that snape thought he was dead which is clerified in the half blood prince start.

Sorry, being dense again-Snape thought who was dead at the start of HBP?

he doesnt exactly have time to wait all day for the 2 to torture harry - they are escaping, not fooling around.

He could spare some time as liong as Harry was the only person in close pursuit...

Erm I didnt say it was the reason for snape's return I said it wasnt the reason for his return.
That's right, you did not say it. Dumbledore did, in HBP, The Seer Overheard: "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he learned how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned-" My question to you was, where did Dumbledore get this peculiar idea about Snape, if Snape did not talk about Voldemort's reaction to the prophecy in his meeting with Dumbledore? Or, do you have a reason why Dumbledore would lie to Harry anout this?
Snape came to hogwarts under voldermolts orders, he simply told dumbledore of voldermolts plans and knew of the prophecy.
This is certainly possible. But based on Dumbledore's statement, quoted above, I believe one of the things he mentioned was Voldemort's conviction that Harry Potter was the Prophecy Boy. And I have difficulty believing Voldemort was willing to sacrifice this particular tidbit of information to establish Snape's bona fides.

I said snape didnt know when they were coming.
[\QUOTE]

Right. You said Draco would have been vague, as in, they are coming soon. Dumbledore would not need to know exactly when they were coming to make a plan. It would suffice to know that they were coming. They would, after all, find Dumbledore, would they not? And it would be Snape's job to make sure he got to the scene as well. Dumbledore does not need to say, at precisely 11:15 pm GMT, on the 25th or May, if you find me and Harry surrounded by Draco and some death eaters, kill me. He could just say, should it happen that the Order members fail to intercept the Death Eaters, and you come upon me and Draco surrounded by them, then I want you to keep your Vow.

[QUOTE]
Im saying snape knew because he did. He wouldnt have spoken to draco about it otherwise, and even the case, dumbledore did not know he was marked for death or he wouldnt have gone to hogwarts in his state after drinking the potion and he would have been more careful about disaporating so not to get noticed.

Yes, after the Katie Bell incident Snape knew Dumbledore was Draco's target. So, incidentally, did Dumbledore, at least if we believe his statements to Draco on the Tower, which I do. In light of this information, that he DID nonetheless go to Hogwarts in his state after drinking the potion, and that he was NOT more careful, is some of the better evidence in favor of the Snape is Good theory, in my opinion. That he permitted Draco to disarm him is another.

Snape ran through the shield and could have disarmed it but he didnt, he went on without getting others.

That he could disarm it is supposition. We only know he could pass it.

Im not sure if your saying snape is good or bad, Im saying he's bad but anyway,

I wasn't saying either way, I was just arguing against your reasons. But, since your ask, :evil: I think he's on the good side.

if there was a deciding factor on showing your true allegiance it was at that point. NOBODY would want dumbledore to die, he is the head of school and the order.
Well, now, Dunbledore would disagree. There is another character compared to whom Dumbledore considers himself much less valuable. And, incidentally, that character was present on the scene...

Dont you think killing the orders strongest member is something snape should not do? snape knew it was going to happen, knowing there was DE members in hogwarts he knew what they were planning to do. But instead of preventing it, he went ahead with it and didnt take anyone up with him. He knew he wasnt going to take on what was up there, he knew dumbledore was the focal point of the attack but he chose to go alone and kill dumbledore himself with not a moment to lose, when dumbledore said for him not to.

I very much believe that Snape did not want Dumbledore to die. But we have no reason to believe he could have immediately brought a group of Order members up the stairs with him. We know nothing about the barrier, how it is cast, and how it is taken down. Perhaps there would be a delay involved, perhaps it has to be taken down by the caster. But he was able to get through himself (probably because he has a Dark Mark on his forearm).

Once on the tower, I believe he had no choice but to act as he did, and I believe, further, that Dumbledore agreed with this assessment. Snape could choose to die by opposing the Death Eaters. (And I believe he would almost instantly, not because he is unable to defend himself well, but because such an action would violate the Vow). What would happen next? Well, I think Draco would kill Dumbledore. (Probably at wandpoint). And depending on how quickly Harry recovered from the shock, he might attack them right there on the Tower at five to one odds. All very bad for the good guys.

What actually happened? Well, Dumbledore died anyway. But Draco did not kill him, which I believe Dumbledore would have considered a plus. Snape did not die either. And he may have laid to rest some doubts in Voldemort's mind. Snape made a point of immediately leading the Death Eaters off the tower, so by the time Harry came to his senses the last one was going out the door.

The thing of it is, I don't feel I am ignoring facts, or making up facts, or anything along those lines, in deciding to believe a Snape is Good theory. What I am doing is taking the rather sketchy facts we have and giving them a rather different interpretation than you do. That we can both do this is in my opinion, no accident, but rather the result of some careful writing by JKR. I think that a number of different theories are at least possible based on the canon facts we have after six books.

Blood_River

January 16th, 2006, 3:39 am

Why would snape take harry as a hostage? harry would be the most awkward hostage ever in his state of mind, harry would probably kill them both in mid disaperating.
Um, why wouldn't Snape stun him first? I mean, it's not like he couldn't. Harry was slaughtered in that duel.

Voldermolt believes in the prophecy, so he thinks he alone MUST kill him, therefore he has told the DE not to kill him.
Voldemort's never heard the prophecy. All he knows is that the boy with the power to vanquish him was born at the end of july to parents who'd thrice defied him. That's it. He doesn't know ANYTHING about one of them having to kill the other, so he really can't be basing his orders on that.

Yes, Voldemort ordered the Death Eaters to let him alone kill Harry in GoF, but they didn't seem to be similarly restrained in OotP and were perfectly willing to attack, hurt, and kill Harry once they got the prophecy away from him.

So if they're really not allowed to hurt Harry in HBP, it's a new order. The question is... why? I mean, even his desire to kill Harry himself out of pride (which was conspiciously gone when Harry merely "irked" him in OotP) shouldn't prevent a Death Eater from torturing Harry along the way. And why would Snape take it upon himself to *remind* this particular Death Eater of that command? Why does Snape care if that Death Eater gets in trouble with Voldemort? He certainly didn't care about the Death Eaters still dueling with the Order when they were running out through the corridor. If he simply can't afford to waste time, why did he stop to taunt Harry by deflecting his blows instead of just leaving?

Awiana

January 16th, 2006, 8:04 am

lucius knew about the book as a horcrux.
Do you have any canon proof for this?
“Lucius did not know what the diary was. I understand that Voldemort had told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, because it was cleverly enchanted.” (HBP p.475 UK).

Snape knew of what was going to happen, he would have told dumbledore when talking with malfoy. But dumbledore asking malfoy how he did it shows he didnt tell him.

But why do you think Snape knew what was going to happen? Do you have any canon proof for that? In the Unbreakable Vow chapter Draco refuses to tell Snape about his plan. Then in the Lightning-Struck Tower chapter he says “But I haven’t told him what I’ve been doing in the Room of Requirement, he’s going to wake up tomorrow and it’ll all be over”(HBP p. 549 UK). Since Draco hasn’t told him about his plan, why do you think that he knew about it?

Snape's expression when killing dumbledore also showed a pure hate for the man, and showed no flinch in killing him, nor feeling.
Actually, his expression showed hatred and revulsion, but it was not said that he hated Dumbledore.

There is no reason to say snape told Dumbledore the potters were being targeted. He confessed to hearing the prophecy but not to their mark.
Dumbledore says that Snape felt great remorse when he realised how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, not that he felt great remorse when he heard the prophecy or told it to Voldemort.

Conclusion: It was not Snape that told of James and Lilly's mark. Snape used another way of gaining so much trust.
I’m sorry, but why do you feel so certain about this conclusion? You need to produce evidence –from canon- to support your theories. “Why not Regulus Black?” is not good enough proof that it wasn’t Snape who told Dumbledore that the Potters were in danger.

Snape helped dumbledore when he recieved injury from the first horcrux

For: Doing this would help dumbledore trust him even more, this may have been done AFTER the horcrux was destroyed thus snape would have had nothing more profitable to do than to gain his trust.
Against: No argument.

Conclusion: Snape used this as an aid to gain dumbledores trust and I believe it worked.

But how do you know that Snape didn’t help Dumbledore because, well, he’s loyal to Dumbledore?

Snape already had Dumbledore’s trust at that point. He didn’t need to do anything to gain his trust. If he was a loyal Death Eater, why would he save Dumbledore’s life? If Dumbledore had died, he wouldn’t have needed to worry about having Dumbledore’s trust anymore.

winky22

January 16th, 2006, 12:35 pm

You're right with the fact, but as it was Snape, who told the Death Eaters not to kill him, I assume Snape is still a protector of Harry as he was in the first book.

It's still unexplained: he didn't hurt Harry badly, he blocked his curses eight times. Even if he really didn't kill him, because Voldemort wanted him not to do, he didn't take Harry with him or something similar.

Thats what i have been thinking about alot, yes he didn't kill Harry or injure him but he could have still tortoured (sp?) him! With all the dark spells that he knows i'm sure there would be one in his head that he wold have done to Harry if he was bad! Putting all the evidence together there is too much too assume he is just bad and i find it hard to believe he his bad. I find the theory that he is his own man more appealing than just a bad and loyal DE

He could have hurt Harry and he didn't!

I don't think Snape knows about the horcruxes. I think Harry, Hermione, Ron, and Voldemort are the only ones alive who do. I don't have absolute beyond a doubt proof, but I don't believe Dumbledore would tell him -- simply because he tells as few people as possible, and even McGonnagall didn't know about them.

Just a thought if Snape doesn't know about the Horcrux's then how did Dumbledore explain the ring?
He would have had to be there at the time as well because D said something along the lines of: "If it wasn't for quick magic from Profeser Snape it may have been alot worse" Sorry i haven't got my book at the moment i lent it to my friend so if someone has the actual Quote that would be lovely.

So Snape must have been there at the time the curse on the ring set in, weather or nor it was a the time that D got it or after i don't know.

gertiekeddle

January 16th, 2006, 1:43 pm

He could have hurt Harry and he didn't!:agree: Excactly! It's hard to explain why he didn't use thos chance - if you don't think he's on the one hand a bully, but on the other still in work for Dumbledore/Harry.

winky22

January 16th, 2006, 2:11 pm

:agree: Excactly! It's hard to explain why he didn't use thos chance - if you don't think he's on the one hand a bully, but on the other still in work for Dumbledore/Harry.

I do think he is a bully and i think he is quite childish and very stubbon at times but that does not make him evil.

He must have issues going way back as well, maybe the way his father treated his mother i don't know?

Awiana

January 16th, 2006, 2:46 pm

He would have had to be there at the time as well because D said something along the lines of: "If it wasn't for quick magic from Profeser Snape it may have been alot worse" Sorry i haven't got my book at the moment i lent it to my friend so if someone has the actual Quote that would be lovely.

Here's the quote: "And a terrible curse there was upon it too. Had it not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." (HBP p.470-471 UK)

winky22

January 16th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Here's the quote: "And a terrible curse there was upon it too. Had it not been - forgive me the lack of seemly modesty - for my own prodigious skill and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." (HBP p.470-471 UK)

Thanks for that.:tu:

So he wasn't there at the time of the mission for the ring but he did go to Prof Snape and Snape helped him. If Snape didn't know at the time what D was doing then did he ask after that? And was he told?

stevenazari

January 16th, 2006, 3:15 pm

gertiekeddle

January 16th, 2006, 3:48 pm

Lots of valid points, but Im not sure if harry will see it that way. Views are well put but I dont know. I know everything "seems" planned for him to be good as well as bad... Ok Im starting to believe he's good, but I can see both sides views, just something keeps making me think that he is going to be bad. Cant explain, so I'll agree with you.It's really no problem - I've still a bad feeling about Snape and I'm convinced he's 'good' (or at least still in work for Dumbledore, maybe Lily, to protect Harry), but there's still the point that he killed Dumbledore. I believe Snape did it for important reasons and I believe Dumbledore could have helped himself out, if he would have wanted to do that, but Snape still murdered someone. That's a point I really have to think of again and again.

Awiana

January 16th, 2006, 4:04 pm

Lots of valid points, but Im not sure if harry will see it that way. Views are well put but I dont know. I know everything "seems" planned for him to be good as well as bad... Ok Im starting to believe he's good, but I can see both sides views, just something keeps making me think that he is going to be bad. Cant explain, so I'll agree with you.
That's nice to hear. I mean, you don’t have to agree with us that Snape is good, everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are a lot of people who believe he's evil, and we can't say that anyone is wrong at this point, because we simply don't know the truth about Snape’s loyalties. But often discussion is more interesting if you can see merit in both sides of the argument. :)

Blood_River

January 16th, 2006, 10:06 pm

You don't have to agree with an idea just because you can't argue with it. Knowing something and being able to explain it to someone else aren't the same thing.

Besides, I don't think Snape is for sure good -- but I believe JKR wants to keep us guessing. I think he'll ultimately be both or neither (not that he's just out for himself and calculating, but something more complicated altogether). I can't put my finger on why I think this, but it seems to make more sense than anything else.

As for the horcruxes -- I don't think Snape knows about it. He may be intelligent enough to have guessed that Voldemort made one, but I don't believe Dumbledore (even trusting him so completely) told him about them. Also, JKR said in an interview that the reason Dumbledore didn't give Snape the DADA job really was that he thought it might tempt him into old habits. So I have to wonder, what happened over the summer to change Dumbledore's mind? Was it Snape's help after the ring incident?

I don't think he necessarily told Snape what he touched that was cursed, and if he did, he didn't have to tell Snape the significance of it. All he really would've need to know was what the curse itself was. Still... if Snape were a good little spy, he would've told Voldemort all the details of this, and Voldemort would've immediately checked his other horcruxes, which he didn't. He must've thought they were safe.

hermione4

January 17th, 2006, 12:50 pm

Can someone convince me Why Snape is Good??

raen

January 17th, 2006, 1:32 pm

Can someone convince me Why Snape is Good??

Assuming that the unbreakable vow literally meant that Snape had to kill Dumbledore if Draco didn't, and there were no loopholes, if Snape had not killed Dumbledore then the unbreakable vow would mean that Snape would die.

I believe that Snape knew that Harry was there under the invisibility cloak. (I am not sure how, maybe he deduced it from the two broomsticks, perhaps he had noticed Harry's absence earlier or Dumbledore had told him what he was doing?) I also believe that Snape knew that Harry was unable to move, beacuse he had not stepped in to defend Dumbledore. I also believe that Dumbledore was weak and vulnerable.

Had Snape not killed Dumbledore, then he would have died himself. This would have left a group of blood thirsty Death Eaters who would possibly have finished Dumbledore off, lifting the immobility charm which would very likely have resulted in Harry joining in the fight. Snape led the Death Eaters away very quickly after he killed Dumbledore. Had Snape not been there to take control of the Death Eaters and lead them away, Harry would possibly have been killed because he was very out numbered and none of the Order could get in to help him.

So, by killing Dumbledore at the time, it is possible that Snape ensured that Harry survived the situation in the tower and later survived because Snape stopped the other Death Eaters from killing him as they ran across the grounds.

I interpret the prophecy to mean that only Harry can kill Voldemort. So, by killing Dumbledore at that time, and not dying himself, Snape ensured that Harry survived and therefore it is still possible for Voldemort to be killed.

stevenazari

January 17th, 2006, 2:54 pm

Yep, I tried providing an argument but every statement I had could be countered, I personally think there is evidence to support both sides, but because of the way they were played out it suggest that snape is being very devious to both sides. and since when would a bad person be devious to his comrades? we know snape was very much trusted by dumbledore to his death, but we dont know if that was both a misconception on dumbledore's behalf or snape had no choice. From the description given in dumbledores voice it sounded like dumbledore really thought he was betrayed. So I have a little doubt at the back of my mind that the death was planned, at the same time I feel dumbledore didnt know through snape about the plot to kill him because he didnt reference snape to malfoy about finding out his plan, he said he knew ever since that girl touched the necklace.

But those are just 2 points that can easily be argued back. Firstly snape could have thought ahead of the situation at that point. As pointed out earlier he hurried them along and for what reason? because the DE were losing downstairs? or because he knew harry was in the room? it gives no reference to snape looking around the room and seeing 2 brooms but at the same time it doesnt mean he didnt know what dumbledore had planned that night (although we are not told of this). In my opinion I think snape was simply keeping to his role as a spy for the order. He would be a better informant as voldermolts no.2 and rest any issues voldermolt would have with him, although I'm sure snape said at the start of half blood prince that voldermolt has no "favourite" among them.

As I said earlier - there are too many loop holes to give a definite answer. We'll just have to wait for the next book.

winky22

January 17th, 2006, 3:55 pm

As I said earlier - there are too many loop holes to give a definite answer. We'll just have to wait for the next book.

Yeah too many loop holes we can all just assume but it is fun to break it down and see what we come up with. I am a beliver that Snape is good but i would never say he is good and that is that. Everyone has i right to there own opinion and most of us here respect that, which is great.

Blood_River

January 17th, 2006, 5:18 pm

I don't think Dumbledore would specifically order Snape to kill him, but I'm sure Snape knows by now Dumbledore's priorities and values. He'd rather die himself than lose Harry, or any student, or have one become a killer. And we don't know how quickly the UV would've killed Snape if he had made a move to help Dumbledore (assuming he ever stood a chance against 4 death eaters).

If Snape died instantly, then Dumbledore and Harry would almost certainly have been killed, Malfoy would either have been killed outright, made a murderer, or taken back to Voldemort to be killed much more painfully -- and the Death Eaters would still be in the school, wreaking havoc, and presumably killing students eventually.

Of all the things that could've happened, this was probably the best ending scenario even though it's painful. Of course, it doesn't prove Snape's goodness -- the Ministry is like that in some ways too. If they hadn't gone there, those twelve horrible Death Eaters wouldn't be in Azkaban, Voldemort wouldn't've been exposed to the Wizarding world, Dumbledore and Hagrid would still be wanted and in hiding, Umbridge would still be controlling Hogwarts... and Voldemort would've just come up with a better plan to get the Prophecy (like oh, say, taking a polyjuice potion and pretending to be someone else?). As painful as it was to lose Sirius, from a brutal war-time perspective, things could've been a lot worse.

winky22

January 17th, 2006, 10:36 pm

The Occlumency lesson sometimes make me think twice about Snape, he never really has a one on one with Harry i would have liked him to change his attitude a bit but no, still the same childish Snape that we all know and love. He never explained it enough for Harry as well he just went right on in there poking around in his memories.

At one point though a think i see a glimmer of caring in the scene when he ask Harry who the dog belonged to, well caring is not the word more simpathetic towards him. Now that may just be me and the way i read but sometimes i think he is a bit sorry in a way that Harry as had (partly due to him) a bad time with the Dursleys.

After he Catches Harry in his pensieve though i think he was enraged alot, madden so much that his privacy as been invaded like that and Harry the last person he probably wanted to see that memory did. He is so unaware that Harry is not like his father at all that he thinks that Harry found it ammusing that they tormented him like that after all he was doing nothing to them was he? We don't know how much Snape tormented them do we? We have no proof that Snape gave as good as he got so to speak, was it one way bullying or not? I would like to know.

I think the title of that chapter (Snape Worse Memory) was not at all his worse memory just one he didn't want Harry to see. People have said it is his worse memory because he called Lily a Mudblood but if he loved Lily as many suspect wouldn't the time he told Voldie about the prophery be the worse or the night when Voldie found the Potters after Pettigrew betrayal? Or who know what he as done in his DE past? Why label this moment as his worse memory?
I don't think this is his worse memory at all i think JK labeled it as that to get us thinking abotu the Lily/Snape senario or maybe the fact that he was bullied by James and Sirius, it cannot be his worse memory i refuse to believe it!

Blood_River

January 17th, 2006, 11:46 pm

Winky, I think you're right. I find it absolutely incomprehensible that, after two months' worth of prodding around in Harry's mind, he could actually believe for a second that Harry would be amused by someone else's bullying. If it weren't for his (IMO) gross inability to separate Harry from James, I think he would've found himself becoming sympathetic to Harry -- maybe even relating to him. If he had, Harry might've found it easier (and not harder) to clear his mind of emotions.

I understand why Snape was so mad after the Pensieve scene, but really what Harry did was the magical equivalent of reading a diary. He was blaming Harry not just for what Harry had done (which was wrong), but for what James had done in the memory, too. After some time had passed, I really think he should've -- as he says -- mastered himself and his emotions and resumed the lessons. Harry was nosy, and he did cross a boundary there, but Snape is a grown up and Harry's teacher and furthermore possibly the only person outside of Voldemort and Dumbledore at this time who had any inkling of the prophecy or what Harry meant to the fight against Voldemort.

He shouldn't've taken his hatred of James out on Harry, not only out of a sense of fairness, but out of a realization of the bigger picture and the fight against evil.

OwlHedwig1

January 18th, 2006, 12:59 am

I was really shocked when I read the last pages of the Half-blood prince. I wasn't even dreaming about it that Snape would really kill Dumbledore. Still, I don't know what to think. But I rather tend to say that Snape must be good.
First, Dumbledore died much to easy. He didn't do anything to protect himself. Think about Dumbledore in the fifth book where he wasn't afraid to fight all those Death Eaters and afterwards Voldemort. I mean, Dumbledore as the most powerful wizard who cannot protect himself against Malfoy or Snape??? It doesn't make sense at all. His death must have been planned. When he said: "Severus, please..." , he must have actually been begging Snape to kill him. Only by doing so, he was able to save Malfoy's and Severus' life. Voldemort would have killed Malfoy if he hadn't killed Dumbledore and Snape would have been in trouble, too. It was the only solution.

The other point is: Wouldn't an evil Snape be too obvious? I mean, Snape was always the person Harry didn't trust. But his suspicions have always been wrong. I think Snape is the typical person who does make a bad, untrusty and unfriendly impression, but is in the end the person who rescues Harry or helps Harry against Voldemort in the very last moment when nobody expects that.
Besides, why did Snape stop the other Death Eater on putting the Cruciatus Curse on Harry? He stopped the Death Eater saying: "Leave him. He belongs to the Dark Lord." He screamed: "No!" and rescued Harry from the death Eater's curse. I mean, Harry would not have died enduring a little pain!! He could have left harry there lying in pain and run away. Voldemort could still have had the chance to kill Harry afterwards. But, no, Snape did not want to see Harry suffer. He wanted to protect him, as he had probably promised Dumbledore before his dead.
Further, Snape said to Harry: "Don't call me a coward". That, in my opinion, sounds like:"You do not know the whole truth. It was very hard for me to actually kill Dumbledore, so don't accuse me if you do not know the reasons behind it."
Finally, it totally makes sense that Snape is still living and Dumbledore has died. Acording to the prophecy, either Dumbledore or Harry survives. So, Dumbledore has himself killed to save Harry. And that was the right moment to save 3 persons: Malfoy, Snape and Harry.
Additionally, Snape is a person to be trusted by Voldemort (Perhaps Voldemort tusts Snape now even more knowing that Snape has killed his worst enemy, namely Dumbledore?). And Snape is very skilled at doing occlumency. That means, that Snape can do occlumency against Voldemort and pretend he is on the dark side and actually acting against Voldemort or, at least, spying on Voldemort's future plans and by doing so being able to rescue Harry at some timepoint in future.

On the contrary, perhaps I am totally mistaken and Snape is really evil which would also be the easiest explanation.

But still, wouldn't that be too easy and obvious and so much unlike JKR's style???

daisy5

January 18th, 2006, 8:51 am

I dont know WHAT snape used to gains dumbledores trust, but simply turning around and saying "oh - yeah you got me, Im a death eater, I told voldermolt of that prophecy thing, sorry about that by the way... any chance I can be a teacher now?".... no it aint happenin is it.
This is precisely why those of us who believe Snape is loyal to Dumbledore think there is something more to the story. We simply don't know everything. I think it likely that there is something else that made Dumbledore believe Snape's remorse. Given that Dumbledore hasn't been the most open with Harry about past events, it wouldn't be surprising if he felt the need to leave Harry in the dark about something else.

Mafer

January 18th, 2006, 9:14 am

Snape is both good and evil...that's what I think...he can't make a firm decision...and at last he tried to do things which will save his life...

He kill Dumbledore...to fulfill Dumbledore's task...to kill Dumbledore so that Draco is safe too

From that Snape will be safe from the Unbreakebla Vow...

daisy5

January 18th, 2006, 9:23 am

Can someone convince me Why Snape is Good??
Can you please be more specific in you query? I could write for hours why I think Snape is good, but I'm too lazy :blush: . There are also well over 300 posts in this thread, many of them explaining the possibility of Snape's goodness. If a question still hasn't been answered to your satisfaction, we will happy to elaborate, but your question, as is, is just too broad.

hermione4

January 18th, 2006, 12:36 pm

If a question still hasn't been answered to your satisfaction, we will happy to elaborate, but your question, as is, is just too broad.

It is OK. The question has been answered. But still I will be convinced only when the 7th book is out.

winky22

January 18th, 2006, 12:44 pm

Winky, I think you're right. I find it absolutely incomprehensible that, after two months' worth of prodding around in Harry's mind, he could actually believe for a second that Harry would be amused by someone else's bullying. If it weren't for his (IMO) gross inability to separate Harry from James, I think he would've found himself becoming sympathetic to Harry -- maybe even relating to him. If he had, Harry might've found it easier (and not harder) to clear his mind of emotions.

Thanks:D After reading back i thought did that sound stupid, Snape simpathetic! Well he has to have it in him somewhere or corse if he did feel Simpathetic at one point it all went when Harry was snooping around in his memory. I agree with you on it's kind of like he is reading his diary but 10 times wose as in a diary you only get the writers point of view in the pensieve you can see every little detail that happens.

Also going to the film GoF (And i'm sure it doesn't Happen in the book but don't count me on it, i find that sometimes the films make you think it did Happen in the book and vice~versa) there is a scene in D office where he has the pensieve out and Prof Mcgonagal is saying they can't let it happen and then Snape says we should let it unfold. Then D says he agrees with our Seviepoo.
Well what was that all about?
Was it just to show the friendship they have between them? What do you all think?

Blood_River

January 18th, 2006, 7:28 pm

Also going to the film GoF... there is a scene in D office where he has the pensieve out and Prof Mcgonagal is saying they can't let it happen and then Snape says we should let it unfold. Then D says he agrees with our Seviepoo.
Well what was that all about?
Was it just to show the friendship they have between them? What do you all think?
It was to set up a lot of the things central to HBP.
1. To Dumbledore trusts Snape's judgement.
2. To reinforce that Dumbledore has a very strong inclination to just watch things unfold
3. To make us suspicious of Snape
4. To foreshadow that Dumbledore is indeed a risk-taker. In HBP, he let Malfoy roam freely through the school, despite the fact that he very nearly killed two other students.
5. To illustrate the differences between the characters -- McGonnagall's much less of a risk-taker. She's worried for Harry like a normal adult would be in this situation -- he's a 14-yr-old boy, who's the known target of the most evil super-power ever, and even without the suspicious circumstances it would be dangerous. Dumbledore, however, though having Harry's best interest at heart, has been known to risk things to make Harry stronger. Remember in PS, Harry was only 11 yet Dumbledore felt he "had the right" to face Voldemort, and let him find out how the mirror worked in the expectation that he might use it.

And probably a host of other things. I'm more interested -- why in the book did the Lestrange / Crouch trial come up in the Pensieve? The three Lestranges were in prison, and Crouch was believed dead. Unless, did Dumbledore suspect he wasn't? All the other trials were of people who were near there -- Karkaroff, Bagman, etc... and why oh why didn't we get to see Snape's?

arithmancer

January 18th, 2006, 9:56 pm

It was to set up a lot of the things central to HBP.

:tu: Good answer!
I'm more interested -- why in the book did the Lestrange / Crouch trial come up in the Pensieve? The three Lestranges were in prison, and Crouch was believed dead. Unless, did Dumbledore suspect he wasn't? All the other trials were of people who were near there -- Karkaroff, Bagman, etc... and why oh why didn't we get to see Snape's?
Well, these were presumably the memories Dumbledore had placed in is Pensieve for review. I think the Lestrange/Crouch trial was in there as an important memory of Crouch, Sr...who was most definitely in the picture and acting oddly. That's why Dumbledore was reviewing that memory. And, it also gave us the readers more information about the Longbottoms, helping set us up, eventually, for the realization that the Moody we saw demonstrate the Cruciatus Curse in class in front of Neville was one of THOSE Death Eaters.

I think we did not get to see Snape's trial memory because Dumbledore did not feel a need to look at it. He trusts Severus Snape completely. (To quote him, form HBP.) Thanks for bringing up this question! I never considered why, inside the story, we were seeing those memories and not others.

Idabomb333

January 19th, 2006, 3:40 pm

sqizzer

January 19th, 2006, 5:52 pm

I had posted in reply a week or two ago about the possible significance of the birthdays on Jo's site. Snape's birthday gave a new perspective to speculation and I said something about having to go back into archives to log any significance of names (history tends to draw a map of the future and so forth...) and I found a link you might be interested in - I did say I'd see if I can find something. It might be a clue of some kind - I don't know for sure.

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/sources/jkr.com/jkr-com-calendar.html

So there's the link for you to see for yourself what's up...
...but for the lazy surfers, I've listed all the birthday notices (and repeats) from the site opening in May 2004 to the present day - there is a pattern (kinda) of sorts.

2004 & 2005:
July 30 - Neville Longbottom
July 31 - Harry Potter
Aug 11 - Ginny Weasley
Aug 22 - Percy Weasley
Sep 19 - Hermione Granger
Oct 4 - Minerva McGonagall
Oct 17 - Filius Flitwick
Oct 30 - Molly Weasley
Nov 29 - Bill Weasley
Dec 6 - Hagrid
Dec 12 - Charlie Weasley

2005 & 2006
Jan 9 - Severus Snape

2005 & (will have to wait and see for more repeats in 2006)
Feb 6 - Arthur Weasley
Mar 1 - Ronald Weasley
Mar 10 - Remus Lupin
Apr 1 - Weasley Twins
May 15 - Pomona Sprout
June 5 - Draco Malfoy
June 28 - Dobby

Here's my view:
1. Severus Snape has not skipped a mention (and as of yet, no previous birthdays have been skipped either).
2. No mention of Dumbledore, Sirius (or any Blacks), Cedric Diggory, in fact all those that are mentioned are still alive up to and including HBP.
3. No mention of a single DE (bonafide), and all those that are mentioned could be considered "goodies" save for two: 1) Snape and his whole grey area, and 2) Percy Weasley who I'm definately not sure about though he seems to be all good but just a bit (re-phrase: a lot) off the mark and misguided.
4. A few birthdays we do know about have not been mentioned: 1) 31 Dec - Voldemort/Tom Riddle, 2) June 23 - Dudley Dursley, 3) Sep 7 - Mrs. Chang (Cho's mom), and 4) Oct ?? - Angelina Johnson (...there could be more but I have a life:p )
5. Luna Lovegood - whom we know Jo LOVES writing didn't seem to make the birthday list cut - so I don't think it's that kind of preferance to decide who is mentioned ie. Jo loves writing Snape too, but that couldn't be the reason why's he's there.
6. Not everyone on the list is an Order member ie. maybe that's not the reason Snape's there.
7. Not everyone on the list is significantly important (Flitwick and Sprout may have a larger role in book 7 but as of yet have not shown a significance of note in my eye's) so the exclusion of known, but seemingly unimportant birthdays may be a valid point of who will survive and who won't (I think it's a long shot though)

See what you make of it - I see it as a little Jo hint to where Snape's loyalties lie, and my little "Jo-quote" of his goodness without having to come out and say it and so not destroying the grey cloud following him (which makes it fun anyway). But that's just me:p , and maybe even a little "who will remain standing at the end" clue too, but we can only hope.

Sqizz

Blood_River

January 19th, 2006, 6:34 pm

The reason Snape told the Order to go to the Ministry is because he really is on the Order's side. I can see no other explanation. Can you?
That was my initial reaction to it, but the problem is that Snape took a freaking long time to alert anyone. In another Snape thread (in HoM), we worked out the various times given and figured it must've been 8-11 hours between Harry telling Snape about his vision and the Order showing up at the DoM.

I can't explain why and when Snape realized (after midnight, it seems) that Harry was gone without him having known it sooner. Were the Inquisitorial Squad students really locked in Umbridge's office the entire time? Otherwise, wouldn't they have run to Snape right away to tell him they'd gone into the forest? Why delay several hours to see if they come out?

Maybe, after waiting so long for word for Voldemort that he'd gotten it, he got nervous that Harry had foiled him again, and would tell Dumbledore. Sure, he could claim that he hadn't understood Harry's message, or hadn't known where he'd gone -- but would Dumbledore buy it? Would he really believe that after 5 years, Snape wouldn't've known Harry well enough to at least worry he might've tried to save Sirius on his own?

It's still a bit of a stretch. It doesn't make sense that Snape would tell them if he's evil, but it doesn't make sense that it took so long without Snape intentionally delaying. My best guess is that, though on the side of the Order, Snape really hates Harry and was still so angry at him, that he wanted him to suffer in limbo with Umbridge not knowing whether Sirius was alright or not, and still expected that Harry would eventually work his way back to him as soon as he got away from Umbridge.

Idabomb333

January 19th, 2006, 7:14 pm

That was my initial reaction to it, but the problem is that Snape took a freaking long time to alert anyone. In another Snape thread (in HoM), we worked out the various times given and figured it must've been 8-11 hours between Harry telling Snape about his vision and the Order showing up at the DoM.

8-11 hours?! How do you figure? For starters, though, you can't blame Snape for the time between Harry telling him about the vision and the time Harry and friends left for the Ministry. It seems to me perfectly reasonable that Snape didn't realize for a while that Harry had managed to escape Umbridge and find a way to the Ministry. Then he contacts Sirius at headquarters, who then gathers up more people before leaving. Depending on whether all of them can apparate, it could take them some time to get to the Ministry and then to FIND the battle in the Ministry. It doesn't seem to me at all hard to believe that in the amount of time it took for all that to happen, Harry and friends could get to the Ministry and be there for an hour or two. Do you really think they were there longer than that?

Additionally, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Snape to think he could fool Dumbledore into believing that he had no idea Harry had gone. I mean, as a reader, I would have believed it. It seemed like Snape was dismissing Harry's vision because he knew it wasn't real. Harry and Dumbledore would not assume Snape knew Harry went into the forest and didn't come back, or at least, I didn't assume that. Besides, I really don't think an evil Snape would send the Order even if he thought Harry had foiled Voldemort on his own. I think he'd be more likely to give up spying on Dumbledore and just leave than risk losing the prophecy. We know it was Voldemort's top priority, so we can assume evil Snape would have had the same top priority- under no circumstances would evil Snape do something that MIGHT hurt the plan to get the prophecy for Voldemort.

hookedonmonics

January 20th, 2006, 2:22 am

frizbog

January 20th, 2006, 2:42 am

Sorry if this point has been mentioned (esp. recently-- I read quite a few posts in this thread, but didn't see it...), but I just re-read Prisoner of Azkaban the other day, and had an evil Snape aha moment. I'm, as a rule, a good Snaper- so this one bugs me.

Snape, being a death eater/spy, would have known the pettigerw was the Death Eater, not Sirius. After all, he knew him from school. So, when he confronted Sirius in the Shreiking shack, he did so knowing who the true traitor was. Severus knew the truth, and all along was allowing Dumbledore to believe a lie. Surely at some point, Dumbledore would have asked Severus what he Knew about Sirius, if both were supposed Death Eaters. If so, Snape fed Dumbledore lies about Sirius, to keep Dumbledore off the right track.
Just a thought. I know that Snape's personal feelings against Sirius figure into this as well, and that may be the undoing of that theory, but there's definately something there to chew on.
I see your point. Consider these counter-points however:
1) Snape had already pledged his loyalty to Dumbledore by this time, and if I recall, Pettigrew did not become a Death Eater until right before the Godric's Hollow incident. In other words, Snape might not have had any way of knowing - they might not have been active death eaters at the same time.
2) In GoF, we have good reason to believe that individual Death Eaters do not know who all the others are - remember Karkaroff's testimony before the Wizengamot.
3) Snape knew all of them from school but did not know that any of them were animagi. Snape is not omniscient.
4) Sirius had no trial so there was no chance for anyone to examine the evidence.

SiriusSpells

January 20th, 2006, 2:43 am

There are many clues tht lead up to Snape being bad, one in the beginning of the Sorcerers Stone. Remember when he first went to Hogwarts and his scar burned when Snape looked at him. I'll go find the quote and page number right now.

pg. 126 US Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone
Professor Quirrell, in his absurd turban, was talking to a teacher with greasy black hair, a hooked nose, and sallow skin.
It happened very siddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turbanstraight into Harry's eyes - and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry's forehead.

random_musing

January 20th, 2006, 2:59 am

arithmancer

January 20th, 2006, 3:20 am

Snape, being a death eater/spy, would have known the pettigerw was the Death Eater, not Sirius. After all, he knew him from school. So, when he confronted Sirius in the Shreiking shack, he did so knowing who the true traitor was. Severus knew the truth, and all along was allowing Dumbledore to believe a lie. Surely at some point, Dumbledore would have asked Severus what he Knew about Sirius, if both were supposed Death Eaters. If so, Snape fed Dumbledore lies about Sirius, to keep Dumbledore off the right track.
Just a thought. I know that Snape's personal feelings against Sirius figure into this as well, and that may be the undoing of that theory, but there's definately something there to chew on.

I'm with frizbog on this one, I do not believe he knew Pettigrew was a Death Eater. And to me, this whole scene has started to make a lot more sense post HBP than it did before. The hate of Sirius exhibited just seemed to be so over the top for being left over from school days.

But if you accept what Dumbledore tried to tell Harry: that Snape found out Voldemort was planning to kill the Potters, that he regretted this deeply, went to Dumbledore about it, and became a spy for him...then it all makes sense. Snape hated Sirius all this time because he did everything he could to save the Potters, but it was all in vain because Sirius (Snape believes in that scene) betrayed them to Voldemort.

random_musing

January 20th, 2006, 3:24 am

Blood_River

January 20th, 2006, 4:00 am

I've always wondered though -- if Voldemort was in Quirrell's head so much, wouldn't Harry's scar have hurt all DADA period long? The only explanation I can come up with is the "powerful emotion" factor, since Voldemort believed Snape had betrayed him at this point.

I doubt Snape knew Peter was the traitor -- although, depending on how close he was to Voldemort, he may have surmised that it was one of James' close friends.

If he found out later that Wormtail had been the traitor, he still wouldn't've known he was an animagus who'd faked his death. He could've told himself that it didn't matter since Peter was dead and Sirius, though not the secret-keeper, had still killed 12 or 13 innocent people to get rid of him and that Sirius had tried to kill him at age 16 as a prank. Why weaken the case against dangerous, murderous Sirius Black?

As for the MoM incident -- Hermione said it was 5 in the afternoon when Harry had told her about the vision. It was sunset when they left the forest on thestrals (so around 9:30 -- 10:00 for that time of year). Snape would've noticed that they, Umbridge, and the Inquisitorial Squad students were not at dinner, and would have noticed that the IS students (who were all in his house) still weren't back by curfew (at 9).

Why didn't he start looking for them then? In any case, I don't think Harry & Co could've gotten to the Ministry any later than 12:00 because Harry thought it would be faster than even going back to the castle from where they were. And it wouldn't've been earlier than 4 or 5 that Dumbledore sent Harry back from the ministry -- so how long did the fighting take?

Harry and his friends must've been looking around & fighting by themselves for at least an hour before the Order arrived. I don't know how long it would've taken them to get there, but they can all apparate and were all at headquarters when Snape's message arrived (so Sirius didn't have to gather them). In any case, the earliest Snape must've contacted them would've been around 12:00, and 2:00 at the latest.

Of course, since Umbridge had kept Harry in detention later than midnight before, it's possible that Snape just figured that was that. He went to her office to insist on his students (from his house) back so they could get enough sleep to take their OWLs and found them trapped in there. But none of the DA members mentioned locking them in there, and I can't believe their impediment jinxes or bat bogey hexes were enough to detain them for 4 or 5 hours.

They must've been the ones, too, who told Snape the DA members had gone to the forest, and if they'd gotten out earlier, I'd expect he was the first one they'd went to. Besides, the way Dumbledore phrased it, it sounded like he'd known for a while they were in the forbidden forest and only started getting worried when they hadn't come back. But why would he wait until 12 or 1 or 2 a.m. to start getting worried?

Still -- I agree, it's hard to buy that evil!Snape would bother telling the Order at all.

random_musing

January 20th, 2006, 4:38 am

I doubt Snape knew Peter was the traitor -- although, depending on how close he was to Voldemort, he may have surmised that it was one of James' close friends.
If Snape was the spy who tipped off Dumbledore, then I'm sure he did, in fact, believe it was either a friend of the Potter's or someone in the Order. I'm not sure whether or not I think he singled out someone specifically, but when the reports of Sirius being the one who betrayed the Potters came out, Snape probably hopped on board. :shrug:

daisy5

January 20th, 2006, 6:43 am

Snape, being a death eater/spy, would have known the pettigerw was the Death Eater, not Sirius.
Well, in Goblet of Fire, Karkaroff says during his trial that the Death Eaters do not know who all the other Death Eaters are. It's very possible that Snape wouldn't know that Pettigrew was working for Voldemort. I also think it is pretty likely that Voldemort doesn't go around telling other Death Eaters who his spies are. That's not very wise. Snape is an exception to this because he is working at Hogwarts and Voldemort needs to explain why Snape is still alive and showing up for meetings. Since there was no reason for Voldemort to explain Pettigrew to anyone, he probably didn't.

winky22

January 20th, 2006, 4:54 pm

I think I can irrefutably prove that Snape is not on Voldemort's side. In OoTP, he alerts the Order that Harry went to the Ministry of Magic. His role as a double agent would not motivate him to do that, because no one, not even Harry, knew that Snape knew Harry was there. In other words no matter what Snape does with the knowledge that Harry went to the Ministry, no one would ever realize what he had done.

First, look at Dumbledore. Suppose Snape had decided not to tell the Order. Harry and friends would probably have been killed or captured, Voldemort would probably have heard the whole prophecy, and Voldemort's side would be much stronger. Meanwhile, Dumbledore would have NO IDEA that Snape could have prevented that disaster, so evil Snape could STILL be a double agent spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort.

Second, look at Voldemort. Snape decided to tell the Order, the Order rescued Harry, and Voldemort didn't get the prophecy. That definitely helped the good side, and Voldemort and the DE have NO IDEA that Snape is the one who alerted the Order. Notice that in Spinner's End, Bellatrix does not ask for an explanation for that action. That has to be because she and Voldemort don't know that Snape is the one who foiled the plan to get the prophecy. So Snape was able to continue spying on Voldemort for the Order.

The reason Snape told the Order to go to the Ministry is because he really is on the Order's side. I can see no other explanation. Can you?

I very much agree:tu:

He could have just left them, he could have just thought well let him be led but he didn't he informed the order. The only thing that bothers me is the time span as Bloodriver has pointed out. The sun was setting as they left and as harry was waiting for Dumledore in is office it was rising and thats a big time span. We can only assume the time, like how long it took for them to get there, how long they where in the ministry before they got into the Hall of Prophercies etc. They must have been in the forest for a while for the sun to be near setting?

When i get the chance i am going to estimate how long each section could and should have taken to get a clearer view. Thats of corse if no body beats me to it. Bear with me i am a bit slow.:lol:

There are many clues tht lead up to Snape being bad, one in the beginning of the Sorcerers Stone. Remember when he first went to Hogwarts and his scar burned when Snape looked at him. I'll go find the quote and page number right now.

pg. 126 US Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone

As many people have said the reason Harry scar hurt was because Voldie was in the turban! Not because of Snape, that was our little clue at the beginning of PS/SS.

Awiana

January 20th, 2006, 5:24 pm

Blood_River

January 20th, 2006, 5:30 pm

I think the time-span was hashed out in "Snape's Betrayal" in the HoM forum. Anyway, it was around 5 pm when Harry told H&R about his vision and sunset when they left for the ministry.

IMO, it doesn't really matter how long they were in the DoM themselves, but how long from the time Snape noticed they were gone to the time the order came. When (and how) did Snape find out they'd gone into the forest, and how long after this did he start worrying?

My guess is that either Snape saw them head into the forest from his own window (unlikely), or that he found out from his Slytherins in the Inquisitorial Squad (who could've seen out Umbridge's window as easily as the DA members). The thing is, when did he find out from them? I would expect that as soon as they escaped the DA hexes, they'd've gone straight to him (in the absense of Umbridge) to tell him that Umbridge had left for the forest with H & Hermione, and that the other four had escaped and were probably going to follow.

This could easily have been before the other DA members met up with Harry and Hermione (as they, presumably, were walking w/ Umbridge for hours). The DA's just mentioned impediments, stunners, shield charms, and the bat-bogey hex -- no word of locking them in or tying them up.

Of course, presumably, Snape expected Harry to come back to him as soon as he got away from Umbridge for information -- and Umbridge had kept Harry in detention past midnight before (and in their first year, they were out in the Forbidden forest around then, too) -- so maybe it's not that odd.

Also, remember, Snape must've been thinking of preserving his cover (and thus his own life) as much as protecting Harry. With Voldemort leaching info from Harry's mind, he couldn't really go up to Harry and say, "No, don't go to the DoM, it's a trap." He might've thought that as long as Harry was trapped with Umbridge and couldn't escape he was relatively safe.

After all, wouldn't a good Death Eater try to clear the way, like Kreacher, for Harry to go to the DoM as soon after the vision as possible? Why not stun Umbridge and tell Harry to hop to it? Who in the whole classroom would have objected? The IS would've been sated shortly after by the knowledge that he was following the DL's orders and sending Harry into a trap.

Still... how long has he known Harry? Wouldn't, after 5 years of Harry's antics, he at least suspect that Harry might try to take matters into his own hands? He should've been worried much sooner.

Still, my ultimate opinion is that his intent was to spitefully keep Harry in suspense about Sirius, not to aid Voldemort's plan.

winky22

January 20th, 2006, 6:41 pm

2Cleva

January 20th, 2006, 7:10 pm

The proof that Snape is good really is obvious and essential to storytelling.

Not only has JK casted a shadow of doubt over Snape's allegiances through the eyes of Harry from Day 1, she also starts the HBP with a scene showing him working with the DE. That just casts his further as the bad guy, culminating of the death of Dumbledore.

Without thinking and basing a reaction of emotion (like Harry), the assumption is that Snape is bad. But any good story teller is going to lean the audience one way to finally go back to the other.

Look at all the other betrayals throughout the series. All were surprises, with Snape being one of the first blamed prior by Harry. Yet in the end, its shown that Snape is on the side of good.

JK said that Books 6 and 7 were basically a Pt 1 and 2 for a reason and this is why. There is no time to show the true essence of Snape in HBP, that will come in the next book. But this is a classic storytelling technique. I'd bet my bottom dollar that Snape is proven to be good in the end.

Don't get caught up in the actual destruction of Dumbledore's physical body when his ideals were always more important. Harry was willing to kill Dumbledore by following his directions, even if he didn't want to. Snape was doing the same.

Look at the loyalty Dumbledore births in people. Harry, Hagrid, Lupin, etc.. Snape is one in the same. Dumbledore's man through and through.

winky22

January 20th, 2006, 7:18 pm

The proof that Snape is good really is obvious and essential to storytelling.

Not only has JK casted a shadow of doubt over Snape's allegiances through the eyes of Harry from Day 1, she also starts the HBP with a scene showing him working with the DE. That just casts his further as the bad guy, culminating of the death of Dumbledore.

Without thinking and basing a reaction of emotion (like Harry), the assumption is that Snape is bad. But any good story teller is going to lean the audience one way to finally go back to the other.

Look at all the other betrayals throughout the series. All were surprises, with Snape being one of the first blamed prior by Harry. Yet in the end, its shown that Snape is on the side of good.

JK said that Books 6 and 7 were basically a Pt 1 and 2 for a reason and this is why. There is no time to show the true essence of Snape in HBP, that will come in the next book. But this is a classic storytelling technique. I'd bet my bottom dollar that Snape is proven to be good in the end.

:clap: All that you have said is so true:clap:

I agree with everything tou say it is obvious if you look hard enough. if Snape was truley bad would we find all the clues to prove he is good?

There are so many to prove he is good and thats why i am a firm beliver that Severus Snape:love: is good.

CelestLBeing

January 20th, 2006, 8:14 pm

winky22

January 20th, 2006, 10:46 pm

hookedonmonics

January 21st, 2006, 3:16 am

I see your point. Consider these counter-points however:
1) Snape had already pledged his loyalty to Dumbledore by this time, and if I recall, Pettigrew did not become a Death Eater until right before the Godric's Hollow incident. In other words, Snape might not have had any way of knowing - they might not have been active death eaters at the same time.
2) In GoF, we have good reason to believe that individual Death Eaters do not know who all the others are - remember Karkaroff's testimony before the Wizengamot.
3) Snape knew all of them from school but did not know that any of them were animagi. Snape is not omniscient.
4) Sirius had no trial so there was no chance for anyone to examine the evidence.
I much prefer your viewpoint to my own, since I think Snape is good. It's always nice to play devils advocate, though- and shred any counter evidence.
That being said, I thought Peter Pettigrew had turned spy for Voldemort about a year before the Potter murders. I read the book more recently than watched the movie, so I'm thinking that comes from the book. That's why it was such a fortunate turn of events that they changed to Pettigrew as secret keeper (I believe they all suspected there was a traitor in the midst. Sirius thought it was Lupin.) Anyway, IF Snape had gone good by then, Dumbledore would have wanted him to keep an eye out for anyone who was close to the Potters. Having known pettigrew from school, and that he was a maurader, he'd be more likely to notice him than any other Death Eater would. Maybe recognized him at gatherings. I would say that Good Snape would be more likely to know who the traitor is than Evil Snape, not as if that proves anything...

I guess it all hinges on whether Snape knew about Pettigrew or not. But, if he knew, and he was good, he would've told **. In any other instance he wouldn't. Since he didn't, we have to assume he is either Evil, or didn't know. I prefer the latter, but leave room for the first.

It's interesting though, the rage he was in when he found out Sirius escaped. And the fact that he blamed Harry. Assuming he thought Sirius was Guilty: When he walked into the shreiking shack, he thought Lupin was helping the killer, and they were going to kill Harry. Wouldn't he then blame Lupin for helping Sirius, rather than the victim? It seems odd to believe that a murderer and his accomplice would beg an escape from Harry rather than kill him. If they were guily, it'd be Avada Kedavra (x3), end of story, end of Potter. So, how can he believe Sirius is giulty, when he let Harry and friends live?

Blood_River

January 21st, 2006, 3:18 am

Jackie_HP

January 21st, 2006, 3:30 am

SNAPE IS GOOD,OR IS LOST TO VOLDEMORT. VOLDEMORT SAYS THIS IN GOBLET OF FIRE PG.565 sorry i was so excitied when i saw this." and here we have six missing death eaters.....three dead in my service.One to cowardly to return(karkaroff)....he will pay. One who i believe has left me forever(Snape)...he will be killed,of course... and one my most faithful servent. Which turned out to be Barty Crouch jr.. Jk Rowling always drop hints im sure this must be one. Anyways im hoping for the best, i have a soft spot for Snape don't ask why LOL. Take care all. Jackie

hookedonmonics

January 21st, 2006, 3:44 am

arithmancer

January 21st, 2006, 4:22 am

I much prefer your viewpoint to my own, since I think Snape is good. It's always nice to play devils advocate, though- and shred any counter evidence.

:tu: :evil:
Yup, it can be. Also gives those of us who don't, more people to debate with!
Assuming he thought Sirius was Guilty: When he walked into the shreiking shack, he thought Lupin was helping the killer, and they were going to kill Harry. Wouldn't he then blame Lupin for helping Sirius, rather than the victim? It seems odd to believe that a murderer and his accomplice would beg an escape from Harry rather than kill him. If they were guily, it'd be Avada Kedavra (x3), end of story, end of Potter. So, how can he believe Sirius is giulty, when he let Harry and friends live?
Snape blames Harry for the fact that Sirius escaped from Hogwarts after Snape brought him (and the kids) back. Lupin could not have done it. He had already transformed, and the werewolf transformation deprives the werewolf of normal human reason, which planning such an escape would require.

hookedonmonics

January 21st, 2006, 4:49 am

arithmancer

January 21st, 2006, 5:36 am

Right, I concede that Snape wouldn't have blames Lupin, who he assumed/knew to be werewolf at the moment. However, Snape (if he believes Sirius was guilty) would have to ask himself "Why did this man, who killed the Potters, Pettigrew, and a slew of muggles, not also kill Harry? Isn't that what he came to Hogwarts for? What was the point of hunting Harry down if he didn't intend to kill him?" It wouldn't make sense. Snape might've thought that Harry escaped Black's murder attempt, but then why would Harry try to save the murdering lunatic?

He's not in a state to be thinking this clearly when we last see him in PoA. I am sure he could have eventually figured this out for himself, as you suggest. I think, though, that Dumbledore may have explained to him about the Animagi later on, and then of course he would have realized that it was Pettigrew who betrayed the Potters and killed the Muggles.

momOf3wizards

January 21st, 2006, 6:21 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie_HP
SNAPE IS GOOD,OR IS LOST TO VOLDEMORT. VOLDEMORT SAYS THIS IN GOBLET OF FIRE PG.565 sorry i was so excitied when i saw this." and here we have six missing death eaters.....three dead in my service.One to cowardly to return(karkaroff)....he will pay. One who i believe has left me forever(Snape)...he will be killed,of course... and one my most faithful servent. Which turned out to be Barty Crouch jr.. Jk Rowling always drop hints im sure this must be one. Anyways im hoping for the best, i have a soft spot for Snape don't ask why LOL. Take care all. Jackie

Right, he said it then, but Snape returned to him later, and explained everything, and supposedly Voldemort believed him.

I was just getting ready to do a search on this. I am having such issues with this. Please....opinions please people!

hermyninny

January 21st, 2006, 7:11 am

I think, Snape has remained loyal to dumbledore up to the last moment.
My theory is dumbledore asked snape to do whatever he needs to do to maintain voldemort's trust in him and snape hesitated, that's why they had an argument.(remember when hagrid was telling harry he saw snape and dumbledore arguing)

Awiana

January 21st, 2006, 9:08 am

If this theory has already been submitted, I apologize, but I haven't read all of them yet. Albus Dumbledore trusted Severus Snape completely. WHY? I believe Dumbledore made an unbrakeable vow with Snape as a condition of him coming to hogwarts. Why else would he trust him COMPLETELY?
I don’t know about that. In my opinion asking someone to make an Unbreakable Vow just seems very out of character for Dumbledore. Asking someone to promise to obey him or die just doesn’t seem like something Dumbledore would do.

I also theorize that the reason Snape went ahead and made that vow with Malfoys mother is that he had already discussed it with Dumbledore.
Maybe, but the Black sisters seemed to come to the Spinner’s End completely unexpected. If Snape didn’t know they were coming and that they were going to ask him to make an Unbreakable Vow, how could he have discussed it with Dumbledore?

Without thinking and basing a reaction of emotion (like Harry), the assumption is that Snape is bad. But any good story teller is going to lean the audience one way to finally go back to the other.
Yes, absolutely. I think it would be very odd if it turns out that Snape is loyal to Voldemort, just like Harry and most likely nearly all of the other characters insist on believing.

Don't get caught up in the actual destruction of Dumbledore's physical body when his ideals were always more important. Harry was willing to kill Dumbledore by following his directions, even if he didn't want to. Snape was doing the same.

Look at the loyalty Dumbledore births in people. Harry, Hagrid, Lupin, etc.. Snape is one in the same. Dumbledore's man through and through.
Exactly. Dumbledore is the sort of person who inspires that sort of loyalty in people. Harry and Snape both hated to do what they did –hurt Dumbledore- but they did it anyway, because they could not fail Dumbledore and betray his trust.

Jade_Fox

January 21st, 2006, 9:36 am

No,Pettigrew was passing information to Voldemort at least for a year before that(Prisoner of Azkaban-Sirius confronted him about it in the shrieking shack)Well,Dumbledore always sees the best in people,so he was possibly mistaken about Snape.There is also the possibilityn that Snape himself wants to be the greatest wizar of all time,double-crossing both Dumbledore and Voldemort to achieve his end.He might help Harry destroy Voldemort,then sieze power himself.But,its just a theory

raen

January 21st, 2006, 1:41 pm

I don’t know about that. In my opinion asking someone to make an Unbreakable Vow just seems very out of character for Dumbledore. Asking someone to promise to obey him or die just doesn’t seem like something Dumbledore would do.

If Dumbledore had made an unbreakable vow with Snape back in the day, although I agree it is out of character for him to do so-- I would guess that it would be to help Harry survive or to protect Harry from death.

Snape's behaviour is very difficult to understand because he causes Harry all sorts of suffering but at the same time seems to contribute to stopping Harry from meeting the sticky end that Lucius would so love him to meet.

frizbog

January 21st, 2006, 2:11 pm

I much prefer your viewpoint to my own, since I think Snape is good. It's always nice to play devils advocate, though- and shred any counter evidence.Thanks :blush: Obviously I think Snape is good too, but I too like to think from the other viewpoint too.
Anyway, IF Snape had gone good by then, Dumbledore would have wanted him to keep an eye out for anyone who was close to the Potters. Having known pettigrew from school, and that he was a maurader, he'd be more likely to notice him than any other Death Eater would. Possibly, but I think it more likely that Dumbledore would want him to stay away, possibly for his own safety. Dumbledore did keep Snape out of the DADA job for sixteen years, after all.
I guess it all hinges on whether Snape knew about Pettigrew or not. But, if he knew, and he was good, he would've told Dumbledore. In any other instance he wouldn't. Since he didn't, we have to assume he is either Evil, or didn't know. I prefer the latter, but leave room for the first.Agree completely.

It's interesting though, the rage he was in when he found out Sirius escaped. And the fact that he blamed Harry. Assuming he thought Sirius was Guilty: When he walked into the shreiking shack, he thought Lupin was helping the killer, and they were going to kill Harry. Wouldn't he then blame Lupin for helping Sirius, rather than the victim? It seems odd to believe that a murderer and his accomplice would beg an escape from Harry rather than kill him. If they were guily, it'd be Avada Kedavra (x3), end of story, end of Potter. So, how can he believe Sirius is giulty, when he let Harry and friends live?
But remember: Harry (with Ron and Hermione) did cast Expelliarmus on Snape and rendered him unconscious and unable to fulfill his ambition of capturing Black and being a hero. So Snape already has reason to believe that Harry is somehow in league with Lupin and Black on something that he does not fully understand. Add that to his predisposition to despise Harry and Snape will be quick to blame Harry instead of Lupin for Black's escape.

Idabomb333

January 21st, 2006, 3:54 pm

If Snape did make a UV, it might've been to always obey Dumbledore. I doubt Dumbledore would do that, though -- the whole "do it or you die" element screams dark magic.

And while Snape may have discussed Draco's task with Dumbledore in advance, Dumbledore couldn't have known that Narcissa would ask for an Unbreakable Vow, so Snape must've been winging it.

No. :no:

What I think is interesting from HBP is that Snape is supposed to feel remorseful over the Potter's deaths. To me this shoots the biggest whole in the Good!Snape theory (which I love :love: ) -- taunting orphans about their dead parents doesn't exactly smack of remorse for causing said parents' deaths. :evil: You'd think guilt would make him go out of his way not to be such a git to Harry.

It's not just that a UV seems dark. We also know that Arthur Weasely was adamant that his kids never use one. It might be that there's some less extreme way that Dumbledore could know Snape was telling the truth. Snape might have let his occlumency barrier down or allowed Dumbledore to use veritaserum. Still, I think it's more likely that Dumbledore trusts him completely because of something or some things Snape has done. Things like saving him from whatever killed his hand and sending the Order to save Harry and stop Voldemort from getting the prophecy. Obviously there would need to be reasons to trust Snape from before Voldemort's fall, though. It probably had something to do with the prophecy and the Potters, but who knows.

As for being mean to Harry meaning that he doesn't regret his part in James and Lily's deaths- first off, I don't think you have to like someone at all to want to keep them alive. Especially if they, without liking you, saved you from dying. James saved Snape from Sirius's "prank" even though he didn't like Snape. Dumbledore says Snape hated James for that, he couldn't forgive James for saving his life. But it left Snape in James's debt. Snape also never taunts Harry about Lily. She wasn't mean to him. So she could be where more of his remorse comes from, though I think the life debt is a pretty big deal. If Lily's more (or all) of why Snape regrets it, it makes sense for him to be mean to Harry because he thinks Harry is much more like James.

In any case, I don't think his remorse is the reason Dumbledore trusts him. I tend to think it might have been what made him decide to go to Dumbledore's side, but that he offered some kind of maybe even unrelated proof that that's where he really belongs.

FanFicFanatic

January 21st, 2006, 9:02 pm

I am a strong believer that Snape is good. I think he had to kill Dumbledore for two reasons:

1) Snape didn't really have a choice after his pact with the Death Eaters (which isn't very good justifacation for his actions,) but also...

2) Both Dumbledore and Snape were extemely talented at both Occulamency and Legimens, and I'm sure there could have been a conversation going on there. If Snape is good, he is obviouly there to spy on the death eaters, seeing as he was still in contact with them. It was necessary to keep his cover for the Order, and not killing Dumbledore would have blown this. Snape is a very powerful weapon for the good side.
Going along with this same concept, I think it is very possible that Dumbledore and Snape could have pre-planned this in order to keep the good side fighting. I think a highlight of Dumbledore's character is that he is always willing to do what's right, evening if it means sacrificeing part of himself. (Look at the cave scene in HBP for example) JK also continusously showed us that Dumbledore is not afraid of death, as shown in OoTP. I think Dumbledore realizes there are sacrifices in this war that have to be made, and him dieing could have been one of them.

Blood_River

January 21st, 2006, 9:04 pm

Of course you don't have to like someone to want to keep them alive, but generally people who joined racist and murderous cults dedicated to world domination and purification of the blood aren't the kind of people who stick their necks out to save people they hate. Or even people they're indifferent too.

And if the remorse was strong enough to push Snape into switching sides against the most powerful dark wizard of all time, surely it could manage to restrain him from taunting orphans about their dead parents when basic human decency serves that purpose for most people. I'm not arguing that he should like Harry, just in none of his interactions with Harry does he ever act like a remorseful person.

dumbledore_isms

January 21st, 2006, 9:40 pm

snape is good, pure and simple.
two bits of evidence in HBP made me sure.
1. the contents of Snape and Dumbledore's arguement. if you focus on what was said, not how Hagrid reported it, it becomes painfully obvious that Snape is getting cold feet about being a cold-blooded murderer-to-be.
2. the 'hatred and revulsion' on Snape's face before he **'s Dumbledore. I believe that while the curse was aimed at Dumbledore, Snape's hatred was of himself. I think he was repulsed by what he was doing, and hated himslef for it (almost sounds like a setup for Snapey suicide). If he was truly on V's side at that time, why would he be repulsed by Dumbledore?

StMungoBonham

January 21st, 2006, 9:46 pm

i havent been reading every1s replys but this is my opinion: Snape had to kill Dumbledore so Voldemort could FULLY and UNDOUBTEDLY trust snape. The WHOLE reason for the Occlumense part of the book was so that we know that Voldemort wont be able to tell if Snape is lying, not to try and teach Harry how to push Voldemort out of his mind and then fail to do so making it a pointless part. Also, it was a secret between Voldemort and Snape so no one, none of the people under the curse in the ministry or spys in the OOTP know hes a double agent and every1 thinks hes on Voldemorts side. Snape is good, and in the end i think he will help Harry kill Voldemort or sacrifice himself to help Harry. I think that this plan must have happend before the summer of the 6th book because Snape wouldnt have made the Unbreakable Vow unless he knew he was going to have to do what she was asking anyways. I believe Dumbledore and Snape hatched this plan when they first heard that Voldemort was back. I forget but when Dumbledore was giving orders to each teacher at the end of one of the books, the 4th i believe.

winky22

January 21st, 2006, 10:28 pm

Snape also never taunts Harry about Lily.

He has never even spoke about Lily that i know of, either he never really knew her that well or he loved her and the pain inside rejects him from talking about her weather it be good or bad. I wonder if he ever talks to Dumbledoe about her, that would be an conversation i would have liked to hear.

We still don't know about the realationship between nape and Lily that even if there was one at all. We all know that Lily saw the good in people even if they did not know it to be there themself. I think she may have had some sort of realationship with Snape for him not to bad mouth her in front of Harry.

I believe Dumbledore and Snape hatched this plan when they first heard that Voldemort was back.

I sure they had pre-planned what they would do if a certain senario arised, they could never know when of what would happen but if they pre-planned something then they would know what to do when i situation happened.

I don't believe Snape knew about the DE's getting into Hogwarts but then i am still not sure about the last chapters in HBP i need to read them again to get my mind fresh to the whole senario but alas i lent my book to a friend and she is a very slow reader!

Blood_River

January 21st, 2006, 11:19 pm

It couldn't've been an elaborately-orchestrated plan to keep Snape's cover or gain Voldemort's trust. For one thing, there were too many variables they didn't have control over or couldn't anticipate in order for it to just be a plan. For another, it would be better for Snape to give up the double-life and have to go into hiding (like Sirius) than to kill Dumbledore. Besides, I just don't see Dumbledore ordering anyone to kill outright.

I do, however, believe that Snape and Dumbledore discussed their priorites and what sort of actions would be least disagreeable in the various scenarios that might've arised. Dumbledore's smart enough to know better than to underestimate youth (as he said to Harry in the cave), or to not have considered that things weren't completely under his control. I'm sure he discussed a contingency plan, an all-else-fails, last-ditch effort, back up sort of scheme... a plan Z if you will.

That's what I think Snape's basing his action in the tower on. Not that it was a direct "if it comes to this, do that" sort of order or plan, but I'm sure Snape, knowing Dumbledore as long and as well as he has, knew that Dumbledore valued Malfoy's innocence and life more than his own life. As for Snape's innocence, maybe Dumbledore would think it preferable -- if one of them had to kill -- that it be Snape and not Draco.

hookedonmonics

January 21st, 2006, 11:27 pm

Thanks :blush: Obviously I think Snape is good too, but I too like to think from the other viewpoint too.
Possibly, but I think it more likely that Dumbledore would want him to stay away, possibly for his own safety. Dumbledore did keep Snape out of the DADA job for sixteen years, after all.
Agree completely.

But remember: Harry (with Ron and Hermione) did cast Expelliarmus on Snape and rendered him unconscious and unable to fulfill his ambition of capturing Black and being a hero. So Snape already has reason to believe that Harry is somehow in league with Lupin and Black on something that he does not fully understand. Add that to his predisposition to despise Harry and Snape will be quick to blame Harry instead of Lupin for Black's escape.

Ok, though I still leave room for Snape to be evil, I relinquish this argument (officially anyway) to being non-evidential. Mostly because I want to be proven wrong :)

raen

January 21st, 2006, 11:28 pm

That's what I think Snape's basing his action in the tower on. Not that it was a direct "if it comes to this, do that" sort of order or plan, but I'm sure Snape, knowing Dumbledore as long and as well as he has, knew that Dumbledore valued Malfoy's innocence and life more than his own life. As for Snape's innocence, maybe Dumbledore would think it preferable -- if one of them had to kill -- that it be Snape and not Draco.

I agree that it would be preferable for it to be Snape-- he has possibly already killed, he was a Death Eater. His soul is probably already torn.

darrenr

January 22nd, 2006, 1:25 am

Snape is Evile and these is some reason why I think hes evil
1 killed Dumbledore
2 scared Hermione and Ginny nealy to death in HBP
3 Hates Harry
4 hates Hermione for being too smart (thinks she may figer out what his up to)
5 Likes Drago
6 always looks like hes up to sumething

Snape wants what Voldemort has and what Dumbledore had power he wants to be the raler thats why I think he kelled Dumbledore and will help Harry Kill Voldemort then he will kill Harry and take Voldemorts place

I say all this for one reason one minite he dose something good and the next he dose something evile now I don't know about you but that to me sonds very strage and says one thing to me (snapes playing both sides to get what he wants)

raen

January 22nd, 2006, 2:03 am

FanFicFanatic

January 22nd, 2006, 2:03 am

There is also the possibilityn that Snape himself wants to be the greatest wizar of all time,double-crossing both Dumbledore and Voldemort to achieve his end.He might help Harry destroy Voldemort,then sieze power himself.But,its just a theory

I don't think this is probable simply because JK has made a distinct difference between good and evil. I think adding a third "side" to the story would make the books much more complicated than really necessary. Too much of a major storyline to add in the final installment of the series.

raen

January 22nd, 2006, 2:38 am

I don't think this is probable simply because JK has made a distinct difference between good and evil. I think adding a third "side" to the story would make the books much more complicated than really necessary. Too much of a major storyline to add in the final installment of the series.

I agree with you, FanFicFanatic, but to play devil's advocate, if Snape has always been on his own side or on both, then the third "side" has been there all along.

random_musing

January 22nd, 2006, 2:54 am

Snape is Evile and these is some reason why I think hes evil
1 killed Dumbledore
His reasons for doing so are still very debateable.
2 scared Hermione and Ginny nealy to death in HBP
Er, when did this happen?
3 Hates Harry
Because he is a reincarnation of the man he loathed (and if you agree with the Snape loved Lily theory, Harry is a mix of the person he loved as well)
4 hates Hermione for being too smart (thinks she may figer out what his up to)
Or maybe he is rude towards her because she is annoying to him? :huh:
5 Likes Drago
So that means he is evil?
6 always looks like hes up to sumething
Thats what makes Snape such an interesting character because we don't know what hes up to! How horribly dull would it be if the bitter, cruel man who always looks like he is up to something turns out to...well...be up to something and evil. Yawn.

darrenr

January 22nd, 2006, 2:41 pm

His reasons for doing so are still very debateable
yes I agree with that but to me a poeson that kills another poson is evil

Er, when did this happen?
Ok may put that wrong but im share that somebody said something about snape doing ar saying something to Hermione that makes cry and Lupin saying "if you had interfared snape would have killed you" or somthing along those lines

So that means he is evil?
yes Snape killed Dumbledore to save drago and dragos a dethether is he not

arithmancer

January 22nd, 2006, 3:13 pm

Ok may put that wrong but im share that somebody said something about snape doing ar saying something to Hermione that makes cry and Lupin saying "if you had interfared snape would have killed you" or somthing along those lines

The incident to which you refer is often used to suggest Snape is NOT evil...it was Hermione and Luna, not Ginny, by the way. The night Dumbledore was killed, they were keeping watch on Snape's office. (Ron, Ginny, and Neville were watching the Room of Requirement, as you may recall). Anyway, Flitwick ran down into Snape's office to tell Snape there were Death Eaters in the school. Then Snape came out and told the girls Flitwick had collapsed, and could they look after him, since he had to go. There was nothing scary from the girls' point of view-and Snape's action resulted in their missing the battle completely, since they were in Snape's office the whole time.

In retrospect, Hermione realized that likely Flitwick did not collapse from natural causes-that he was Stunned by Snape. (ALthough we do not know this, as only Snape and Flitwick were in the room when whatever happened, happened). WHen talking the whole thing over she apologized to Harry for just letting Snape go. That is when Lupin suggested it was a good thing, since Snape would probably have killed her if she had not. We, of course, have no idea what Snape would have done if Hermione had tried to stop him. (Personally, I think Stunning her would have been a more likley reaction...if he really wanted to kill lots of people, why not start with Flitwick?)

Witchykitty

January 22nd, 2006, 5:18 pm

I really don't think Snape was or ever will be on the good side. And now that Dumbledore is dead.....well, that just adds more that he is on Voldemort's side and will stay there.

raen

January 22nd, 2006, 11:26 pm

If Snape was never on the good side, why did he originally go to Dumbledore and say he was no longer a Death Eater? Was it just so he could spy for Voldemort?

At the time, if I recall Voldemort was still very powerful, but had recently heard the prophecy-- do you Snape-is-evil believers have any thoughts on why, at that time, Voldemort thought he needed information about Dumbledore? Was it because he needed information on the Potters or the Order of the Phoenix? I'd like to understand in a more complex way why Voldemort wanted Snape with Dumbledore. Do you think it is just because Voldemort saw Dumbledore as the only threat?

arithmancer

January 22nd, 2006, 11:30 pm

At the time, if I recall Voldemort was still very powerful, but had recently heard the prophecy-- do you Snape-is-evil believers have any thoughts on why, at that time, Voldemort thought he needed information about Dumbledore? Was it because he needed information on the Potters or the Order of the Phoenix? I'd like to understand in a more complex way why Voldemort wanted Snape with Dumbledore. Do you think it is just because Voldemort saw Dumbledore as the only threat?

I'm not a Snape is Evil believer, but there are a few reasons I could think of. First, Voldemort may know already he has not heard the entire prophecy. He decides to act without that information, but he is probably still eager to learn the whole thing.

Second, Dumbledore is the only wizard he ever feared. Snape could have been sent as an assassin. He does seem to have some of the skills you would want for such a task.

Third, it may not have been about the Order, but about Hogwarts. Voldemort may have wanted a man there in case he wanted to go there to retrieve artifacts, or Horcruxes, or what have you.

Blood_River

January 23rd, 2006, 3:06 am

I guess the interpretation of the word "good" is important. I am arguing that he is against Voldemort, rather than "good" as in well behaved or nice to people. He is not a nice person and he is constantly awful to Harry, but I don't think that it follows on that he is on the side of Voldemort. His behaviour is difficult to comprehend because of the duality of it, he appears to save Harry from death at the same time as making his life miserable.

Even if Snape killed Dumbledore against Dumbledore's wishes, it does not automatically follow that he is on the side of evil. He may be privy to information that we are not-- he is in Voldemort's confidence. He may have known that the path to Voldemort's destruction required Dumbledore's death at that moment.

In my opinion, the bigger picture is important and I think that Ms Rowling is writing these books along these lines-- that it is the bigger picture that counts, that it is a war and some battles may be lost, as well as some soldiers, before the war can be won. The ultimate destruction of Voldemort is the most important thing, everything else is secondary.
:tu: until the last part. ITA that Snape isn't "good" in the sense Harry or Dumbledore are, but may be in the sense of anti-Voldemort (although, he could be so for good or bad reasons, too).

I also agree that it's possible he killed Dumbledore, not on Dumbledore's orders, but with the intent of furthering the cause against Voldemort nonetheless. Snape is a pretty harsh character, and one of the few Slytherins we have on the "good" side (if he is so) -- I wouldn't be surpised if he took a very hard-nosed "ends justify the means" approach to things.

I disagree thought JKR is writing along those lines, though. Her portrayal of the Ministry is as a "gray area" morality -- as people with a good end who use bad means. They take a very "bigger picture" and "grand scheme of things" approach to the war on Voldemort by using Unforgivables against his supporters, Dementors to confine them, and sacrificing the innocent (like Stan Shunpike, etc...) in the search for the guilty and to "boost morale."

The good guys like Harry and Dumbledore are shown to take the opposite approach. Harry would've handed over the prophecy to spare Neville another crucio, for example. Dumbledore didn't sacrifice Malfoy to further the cause against Voldemort either. They don't make compromises like the Ministry does.

Although, I'd differentiate between those and the voluntary sacrifces of themselves made by Lily, Sirius, etc...

As for Snape... I'm still trying to figure out his motivation. I really want it to be more than just that he loved Lily.