Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v3

It happened when Snape looked at Harry straight in the eye.
random_musing is right. That was simple subterfuge that Jo used as a red-herring so we would all suspect Snape and not Quirrel. Voldemort was the one that caused Harry to feel the pain in his scar. Voldemort has always been the ONLY one to cause Harry pain in his scar. It's on aspect of their connection.

[QUOTE=Awiana]I don’t know about that. In my opinion asking someone to make an Unbreakable Vow just seems very out of character for Dumbledore. Asking someone to promise to obey him or die just doesn’t seem like something Dumbledore would do.


Maybe, but the Black sisters seemed to come to the Spinner’s End completely unexpected. If Snape didn’t know they were coming and that they were going to ask him to make an Unbreakable Vow, how could he have discussed it with Dumbledore?

:cool: Maybe Snape offered to make an uv, to prove himself. i don't know. But I do agree it would seem out of character for Dumbledore to request one!
Sorry, I didn't mean he had discussed making a uv with narcissa, I meant he had discussed Voldemorts plans for Draco with Dumbledore. if so don't you think Dumbledore would have insisted Snape not allow Draco to do the dirty deed under any circumstances. I think Dumbledore would want his students soul intact and whole. Perhaps he made Snape promise, should it come down to it, he would do everything in his power to prevent Draco from commiting that one horrifying act! I also wonder if the argument Hagrid heard was Snape trying to back out of that agreement.

I really just can't see J.K. keeping Snape evil the whole time. I mean, the only really evil ting he has done is murdering Dumbledore, and that may not have been so bad. Just look at Obi-Wan Kenobi: he let Darth Vader kill him, so he could help Luke. I think this is along the same lines as that. So Snape will most likely remain "evil" 'till the very end, then at the last moment, and the most crucial moment, he will betray Voldemort, just like P. Pettigrew. I almost feel sorry for Voldemort; his secret double agent and the servant who brought him back are both going to end up helping Harry.

It happened when Snape looked at Harry straight in the eye.

Ok i hope this doesn't sound like i'm mocking you because i'm not but are you serious? Or are you having us on?:cool:

It was intended in the story line for us to think it was Snape who was trying to get the PS/SS, when actually (what we all know) it was Quirrelmort! Yes Snape did look into Harry's eyes but also Voldie face was pointing at him too, wrapped around in Quirrelmorts Turban! It's like a classic Whodunit the person who you think is the murder is always not it's the least expected one. Harry scar has never hurt him before when Snape looks into his eyes!

I can't decide. Some days, I think he might be. Other times, I think he's just pure evil. I'll just have to wait until the last book comes out and find out.

Well based on the fact that the books did follow a teaching pattern then I would say he was good. Based on the pattern it goes evil, arsehole, good. First we have Quirrell possessed by Voldemort obviously evil, then Lockhart not evil but just basically an idiot, then we have Lupin who is good and someone from whom Harry learns a lot. Then the pattern starts over. We have Barty Crouch Jr, evil. Next Umbridge, as told by ** not evil but just a jerk and an idiot. Selfish and self centered like Lockhart and willing to hurt others to advance themselves. Then assuming this pattern has contined Snape should be good. I had have this theory since gof and was hoping HBP would confirm it but :( I had also previously wondered how it would work out with 7 books but apparently we don't have to worry about it since harry won't be in hogwarts.

Yeah, I'm kind of back and forth on it.

One thing I'd like to add though: If Snape did kill Dumbledore on his own orders, it was NOT under any circumstances merely to protect Snape's cover. So what if his cover would've been blown by helping Dumbledore off the tower?! He could've gone into hiding like Sirius had been.

It would've been better for everyone (including Snape) if he'd been exposed as a traitor, yet Dumbledore had lived. The only reason he would've had to have killed Dumbledore is, presumably, because this was not an option.

I have no idea how rigid or fast-acting Unbreakable Vows are, but it's very possible that if Snape had made a move against the Death Eaters (assuming he could've, under normal circumstances, taken on 4 DEs by himself) he would've died instantly.

This would've been bad. Dumbledore would still have been killed by either Malfoy or one of the other four (in which case, Malfoy would probably be killed). Harry would be more likely to be found, and the DE's instead of being rushed out of the school might've decided they could afford to roam through it causing mayhem in celebration and even killing a few students.

I think Snape is playing both sides, and he's going to say that he was supporting whoever comes out on top. Currently, it appears that he abandoned the OotP for the Death Eaters, but he's left himself a door back in. It is possible if the Ministry wins the war against Voldemort, Snape will say that he Dumbledore told Snape to kill him to gain the trust of Voldemort, and sabotage his operations. If Voldemort wins, Snape will just say that he always supported Voldemort, and he proved so by killing Dumbledore.

I think Snape is playing both sides, and he's going to say that he was supporting whoever comes out on top. Currently, it appears that he abandoned the OotP for the Death Eaters, but he's left himself a door back in. It is possible if the Ministry wins the war against Voldemort, Snape will say that he Dumbledore told Snape to kill him to gain the trust of Voldemort, and sabotage his operations. If Voldemort wins, Snape will just say that he always supported Voldemort, and he proved so by killing Dumbledore.

I agree that Snape ought to be as set as anyone can be to be in a good position if Voldemort wins. But why do you think he can expect to be believed if the good guys win?

Sorry, I didn't mean he had discussed making a uv with narcissa, I meant he had discussed Voldemorts plans for Draco with Dumbledore. if so don't you think Dumbledore would have insisted Snape not allow Draco to do the dirty deed under any circumstances. I think Dumbledore would want his students soul intact and whole. Perhaps he made Snape promise, should it come down to it, he would do everything in his power to prevent Draco from commiting that one horrifying act!
Ok, well, I see it a bit differently, because I don’t think he knew about Draco’s mission before the Black sisters came to visit him, and that’s why I don’t think he could have discussed it with Dumbledore beforehand. But if he did know about Draco’s mission, then I agree that he would have discussed that with Dumbledore, and Dumbledore would have insisted that Draco’s soul must remain whole.
I also wonder if the argument Hagrid heard was Snape trying to back out of that agreement.
I wonder about that too. It’s possible that they were talking about something else entirely, but at this point I have no idea what that could be, so I tend to think that they were arguing about that agreement.

One thing I'd like to add though: If Snape did kill Dumbledore on his own orders, it was NOT under any circumstances merely to protect Snape's cover. So what if his cover would've been blown by helping Dumbledore off the tower?! He could've gone into hiding like Sirius had been.

Dumbledore is a intelligent caring man.

Caring: He is willing to give his life for Snape and Harry, if Snape didn't kill D on D's orders then they would have surley died if Snape blew his cover.

Inteligent: He knows Voldie needs to be brought down he needs someone to help Harry thwart him who better than someone under cover like Snape, Killing D would have gave him the best cover there is Voldemort will now think him as him most loyal DE.

Now i think Snape is going to help Harry (without Harry's knowing somehow) find the Horcruxes and to defete Voldie. If he aproches Harry his cover will be blown he will have to do it in the most secretive way.

If we really think about it, it is the best possible way of defete. D would have never been able to get close to Voldemort he had Snape to do that but i think Voldemort was still quite suspitious and never killed Snape on his return because a spy in the order was too tempting to him thats why Snape is still alive he fell for this because of his greed.

It was the only way.

Also Snape undercover? I think he'd go mad! even worse than Sirius did. it may have come to it if the worse happened but i just can't see it being something Snape would do.

[QUOTE=Awiana]Ok, well, I see it a bit differently, because I don’t think he knew about Draco’s mission before the Black sisters came to visit him, and that’s why I don’t think he could have discussed it with Dumbledore beforehand. But if he did know about Draco’s mission, then I agree that he would have discussed that with Dumbledore, and Dumbledore would have insisted that Draco’s soul must remain whole.

Snape did know about Draco's mission before the sisters came to see him. I don't have HBP handy so I can't quote word for word but, Narcissa told Snape she was told by the Dark Lord not to speak of it and Snape told her he already knew of the plan. Bellatrix was very upset the Voldemort had taken Snape into his confidence, and Narcissa hoped Snape could get Voldemort to change his mind.

Snape did know about Draco's mission before the sisters came to see him. I don't have HBP handy so I can't quote word for word but, Narcissa told Snape she was told by the Dark Lord not to speak of it and Snape told her he already knew of the plan. Bellatrix was very upset the Voldemort had taken Snape into his confidence, and Narcissa hoped Snape could get Voldemort to change his mind.

I am not sure he did know the plan, he could have been bluffing so he would look like he knew in front of Bellatrx.

Well, Snape could've been lying (as many have speculated) about being in on the plan.

As for Snape killing Dumbledore on Dumbledore's Order's, I'm perfectly aware that Dumbledore is a caring and intelligent man, and I agree he would die in a heartbeat to save Snape's, Harry's, Draco's, or anyone else's life, and I said as much in my post. I have some doubts however whether he would really force Snape to become a killer -- and do much damage to his soul and emotional well-being -- in order to save anyone's life, and I'm certain that he wouldn't force that of Snape merely to preserve his cover.

Yes, Dumbledore is intelligent and having a spy in Voldemort's inner circle is very valuable, but unlike Voldemort, Dumbledore is not ruthless. He makes sacrifices and takes risks that Voldemort would never take in order to ensure the well-being of individual people (regardless of how "useful" they would be). He took great risk to his own life and the safety of other students to not only protect Draco from Voldemort's punishment, but to give him the opportunity to voluntarily choose good -- not just because he wasn't strong enough to complete the task, but because he realized he didn't want to kill. That was, from a utilitarian perspective (like Voldemort's), very impractical. Dumbledore values the souls of people -- even his enemies -- more than their lives, and he values the lives of individual people more than the success of a cause. Or do you believe that if Ron or Hermione or another student who wasn't "The Chosen One" had been with Dumbledore in that cave that he would have allowed them to drink the toxic potion of awfulness simply because he was more valuable?

And it wouldn't matter if Snape were even more restless in hiding than Sirius had been (although I doubt that) because obviously Dumbledore still saw fit to keep Sirius there.

Dumbledore very well may have given Snape the order (or permission?) to kill him if a certain scenario arose, but it wouldn't be to preserve Snape's cover as a death eater, it would be to save innocent lives that were immediately endangered (like Harry's and Draco's in the scenario that happened).

And while having someone loyal to Dumbledore and "our side" as he calls it deep inside Voldemort's inner circle will be useful to Harry, it won't be half so useful as Dumbledore himself would have been.

Snape did know about Draco's mission before the sisters came to see him. I don't have HBP handy so I can't quote word for word but, Narcissa told Snape she was told by the Dark Lord not to speak of it and Snape told her he already knew of the plan.
I know he says he knew about the plan, but the thing is, he might be telling the truth or he might be bluffing in order the get them to tell him about the mission. That’s why Snape saying that he knows about the plan is not proof that he actually knew about it.

I tend to think that he didn’t know about the plan, because nothing he says in that chapter proves that he knows what they’re talking about. He doesn’t mention any details of the plan, he either just repeats what the sisters have said or states the obvious (“the Dark Lord is very angry and he will not be persuaded”). Of course it’s entirely possible that he did know about the plan, I’m just saying that we don’t actually know that for sure.

:huh: I know he says he knew about the plan, but the thing is, he might be telling the truth or he might be bluffing in order the get them to tell him about the mission. That’s why Snape saying that he knows about the plan is not proof that he actually knew about it.

I tend to think that he didn’t know about the plan, because nothing he says in that chapter proves that he knows what they’re talking about. He doesn’t mention any details of the plan, he either just repeats what the sisters have said or states the obvious (“the Dark Lord is very angry and he will not be persuaded”). Of course it’s entirely possible that he did know about the plan, I’m just saying that we don’t actually know that for sure.
:huh: Thanks AWIANA. I don't know why(maybe beecause Iwant to believe Snape isn't all bad) it never occured to me Snape was either bluffing or lying. So now what? I now have to reread the book again with that spin on it! I should have joined up on this site a long, long time ago.

I think Snape is actually good. Rowling is going through an awful lot of trouble to make him look bad so maybe she's really setting us up for a plot twist later on. The only person who really trusted him was Dumbledore (and the other teachers at his request) but he pretty much blew it by killing him. Still, the "Good Side" isn't brought down completely by Dumbldore's death. They're crippled, but I think it's safe to assume they'll pull through in the end. Snape needed to look like he could be on either side, so he made the Unbreakable Vow knowing it would result in Dumbledore's death but it was better than being killed by Voldemort. Perhaps he could have still passed information without being noticed even while under the Vow.

He knew Dumbledore was important to the Order, but the Order didn't collapse without him. I think that's important to remember.

:huh:
:huh: Thanks AWIANA. I don't know why(maybe beecause Iwant to believe Snape isn't all bad) it never occured to me Snape was either bluffing or lying. So now what? I now have to reread the book again with that spin on it! I should have joined up on this site a long, long time ago.

Hi! Why would Snape's bluffing make you think he was not on the good side? WHen I read 'Spinner's End', I saw it as being all about us seeing Snape the Spy for the Good Guys in action, spying on Death Eaters (and their wives...)

This is why he would bluff, I thought. What have the ladies told him at the moment that he 'admits' he knows the plan? Why, that Narcissa wants to talk to him about a plan of Voldemort's, but it is oh so secret and oh so important that she is really afraid to bring it up, and oh so loyal Bella doesn't think she should mention it to Snape at all. Any spy would want to hear more about the plan at this point! And a good way to shut Bella up is to claim he already knows it. Then talking about it isn't really betraying the Dark Lord...

It does mean there is no way Snape and Dumbledore discussed the Unbreakable Vow in advance, but I do not see this is a problem. Dumbledore can't possibly expect Snape to discuss everything he ever does with Dumbledore in advance. If he really trusts him, he would let him deal with unexpected and possibly advantageous events (just like a visit from Bella and CIssy) on his own initiative.

From there, Snape could have been pretty upset with himself for not seeing that Narcissa was going to ask him to do the deed himself....and would go and let Dumbledore know he had committed himself with a Vow to carrying out some unspecified task. Then later, probably after the Katie Bell incident, they both would have figured out what the task was...

I disagree thought JKR is writing along those lines, though. Her portrayal of the Ministry is as a "gray area" morality -- as people with a good end who use bad means. They take a very "bigger picture" and "grand scheme of things" approach to the war on Voldemort by using Unforgivables against his supporters, Dementors to confine them, and sacrificing the innocent (like Stan Shunpike, etc...) in the search for the guilty and to "boost morale."

The good guys like Harry and Dumbledore are shown to take the opposite approach. Harry would've handed over the prophecy to spare Neville another crucio, for example. Dumbledore didn't sacrifice Malfoy to further the cause against Voldemort either. They don't make compromises like the Ministry does.

I am a few days late with this, Blood_River, but I wanted to thank you for your insight here, I had neglected to take the ministry into account, and by doing so I overlooked a significant aspect of the good v evil issue.

I also want to clarify that my earlier post, to which you were replying, appeared to imply that my own politics follow this line-- they don't. :)

I think I am guilty of always thinking that the Potterverse (for want of a better term) is always extreme, I always read them with this attitude that, for example, if a teacher is to be nasty then they will be outrightly cruel, if you have a school enemy then he will be a murderous bigot, if you must stand up for your friends you must die for them etc. This is why I guess I was seeing the world in such a black and white way--that the goal is Voldemort's destruction and that is it. Anyway, I am off topic really so I'll end here. ;)

raen: You're right, though -- the Potterverse is usually extreme in things like that. The bad characters were horrible, the good characters were saintly, and it wasn't until Harry started growing up that JKR suddenly threw in twists like "James was an arrogant bully in school and Snape was his victim" or bad guys from the Ministry who weren't in league with Voldemort. I think she was doing that intentionally to show the widening of perspective that comes with maturity.

zgirnius: I like your perspective on Snape's bluffing and the subsequent reactions -- that was my own initial reaction too. The only problem is that Snape does say a few things that sound a little explicit in "Spinner's End" -- things that sound like he is aware of the plan -- "In the unlikely event he succeeds, I'll be able to remain at Hogwarts as a spy" or "I think he means for me to do it eventually"... and I can't think exactly what else.

He doesn't sound quite vague enough for me to be bluffing... although too vague for me to say he knows for sure what was happening. Maybe he was just using legilimency on Narcissa and gleaning what little scraps he could and piecing together the rest. He's survived as a spy this long whichever side he's on, so he must be good at wheedling information out of people without seeming like he's doing it.

And it would explain why he kept pushing drinks on her, I suppose. :D

Hey... does anyone wonder at the end of OotP, when exactly Snape found out about everything? I mean, was he still checking the forest when Dumbledore told Harry about the prophecy? And who do you think filled him in? Dumbledore, or another order member?

Snape still had a choice. He could have passed along information, but Voldemort wasn't around; so to speak for a decade. That's a lot of information that could've or was given to Voldemort. He didn't have to make the unbreakable vow, but he did. Maybe so it would appear that he was on the "dark side" so he could play spy. He didn't have to kill Dumbledore, but he did. Yes, he made the vow and breaking it would result in his death. He could have made that sacrifise, but that would be a Gryffindor trait not a Slytherin one. True, the death of Dumbledore signifies more; it sends Harry off on the journey that only he can take. He has to be the one to stop Voldemort.

This is one of the major points and themes in HP. Choices, they make you who you are and what house you will be sorted into. If Snape is good or not is truely his own decision. He comes back to the "good side" or not is his decision also.

zgirnius: I like your perspective on Snape's bluffing and the subsequent reactions -- that was my own initial reaction too. The only problem is that Snape does say a few things that sound a little explicit in "Spinner's End" -- things that sound like he is aware of the plan -- "In the unlikely event he succeeds, I'll be able to remain at Hogwarts as a spy" or "I think he means for me to do it eventually"... and I can't think exactly what else.

Well, being in this forum has definitely made me see other possibilities for the scene as well. But I actually thought the little remarks he made could be fairly clever things he might say if he did not know the task, to reinforce the impression it is safe to talk about it with him. Your first example goes back to what he has been saying to Bella about why he has value to Voldemort. And he can deduce success is unlikely from Narcissa's comments and extreme distress. The second remark you cite is a weaselly one (I think). If he turns out to be wrong, well, he just misunderstood... Another example is 'If Draco succeeds, he will be honored above all others'. Given that a few lines back Bella opines 'Draco should be proud, The Dark Lord is granting him a great honor' this is not a big stretch. And yes, it does explain the wine! :D

Hey... does anyone wonder at the end of OotP, when exactly Snape found out about everything? I mean, was he still checking the forest when Dumbledore told Harry about the prophecy? And who do you think filled him in? Dumbledore, or another order member?
He could have been notified by an Order member...on the other hand, he could by then have worked out more or less what happened (on the Hogwarts end) in which case he would have been back at the castle and could be filled in on the rest by Dumbledore, later. Maybe he met up with Umbridge and the Centaurs, for example.

I don't know why(maybe beecause Iwant to believe Snape isn't all bad) it never occured to me Snape was either bluffing or lying. So now what? I now have to reread the book again with that spin on it! I should have joined up on this site a long, long time ago.
Well, I believe that Snape was lying when he said that he knows about the mission, and I also believe that Snape is on Dumbledore’s side. I agree with zgirnius, who gave a very good answer to this. Draco’s mission sounds really important, and Snape who is spying for the Order would definitely want to know more about it, and that’s why he was bluffing.

Welcome to the forums by the way! :welcome:

But think about this for a minuit, dumbledore would have died regardles if snape killed him or not, the whole tower was filled with death eaters, if snape had tried to save dumbledore he would have end up dead because he made the unbreakable vow and someother death eater would have killed dumbledore. So Snape decided he would kill dumbledore and stay as a spy for the order of the phoenix. But because harry saw him kill dumbledore snape had to run away, if he had tryed to stay with the order after harry had seen him kill dumbledore none of the order would have belived that he had no choice but to kill dumbledore. So now all the wizerding world will belive that he is truly a deatheater, but he will be the downfall of voldemort because he is really a good guy and he will try and sabatoge all the dark lords planes. Snape had no choice but to kill dumbledore.

Snape was bluffing during that conversation to get information - he had no idea what he was actually getting into.

As beloved as Dumblydore was, Snape was more valuable as an agent than Dumbledore was in his capacity as Hogwarts headmaster.

Hey, Harry poured cup after cup of poison into Dumbledore and I don't see anyone yelling that HE'S evil.

Same situation.

Snape is good.

Or - well NOT evil, anyway.

If Snape was good when he was killing Dumbledore (on his orders), will he still be after doing so? My impression is that he's never been exactly stable -- unlike some characters (Dumbledore himself, for example), he's never been a bastion of goodness. He's nasty and mean and abuses his teacherly power to bully children. He has a gross inability (IMO) to separate Harry from James and takes out all his anger at James on him. He definitely has a desire for power and recognition (as the end of PoA proves), difficulty forgiving those who've wronged him (ironically, as he's a recipient himself of Dumbledore's forgiveness and mercy), and uh... yeah...

Who torments orphans who's parents they're so remorseful for killing?! I mean, seriously, I know I've asked it before, but it just really REALLY bothers me that his great remorse for inadvertently leading to the Potters' deaths was powerful enough to spur him on to betray Voldemort (when the Order was outnumber 20 to 1 and Death Eaters were picking them off like ninjas), but isn't even strong enough to restrain him from emotionally torturing an 11-year-old boy he's never met before.

Oh, anyway, the point I was getting to was that, in the absense of Dumbledore -- both his guidance and also his protection -- will Snape really fight against his own survival? Knowing the only chance he has of avoiding Azkaban and misery is if Voldemort wins now? I mean, he's never exactly been a saint among the good-guys so... I don't know how reliably he'll work to save people he despises by betraying his friends and damning his future.

If Snape was good when he was killing Dumbledore (on his orders), will he still be after doing so? My impression is that he's never been exactly stable -- unlike some characters (Dumbledore himself, for example), he's never been a bastion of goodness. He's nasty and mean and abuses his teacherly power to bully children. He has a gross inability (IMO) to separate Harry from James and takes out all his anger at James on him. He definitely has a desire for power and recognition (as the end of PoA proves), difficulty forgiving those who've wronged him (ironically, as he's a recipient himself of Dumbledore's forgiveness and mercy), and uh... yeah...

Who torments orphans who's parents they're so remorseful for killing?! I mean, seriously, I know I've asked it before, but it just really REALLY bothers me that his great remorse for inadvertently leading to the Potters' deaths was powerful enough to spur him on to betray Voldemort (when the Order was outnumber 20 to 1 and Death Eaters were picking them off like ninjas), but isn't even strong enough to restrain him from emotionally torturing an 11-year-old boy he's never met before.

Oh, anyway, the point I was getting to was that, in the absense of Dumbledore -- both his guidance and also his protection -- will Snape really fight against his own survival? Knowing the only chance he has of avoiding Azkaban and misery is if Voldemort wins now? I mean, he's never exactly been a saint among the good-guys so... I don't know how reliably he'll work to save people he despises by betraying his friends and damning his future.



I understand that you think that Snape is not a good or nice person. But there are plenty of people that are not nice but that doesnt mean that there evil. Im not saying snape is a nice person, just innocent.

Snape was bluffing during that conversation to get information - he had no idea what he was actually getting into.

As beloved as Dumblydore was, Snape was more valuable as an agent than Dumbledore was in his capacity as Hogwarts headmaster.

Hey, Harry poured cup after cup of poison into Dumbledore and I don't see anyone yelling that HE'S evil.

Same situation.

Snape is good.

Or - well NOT evil, anyway.


exacly what I mean!

But think about this for a minuit, dumbledore would have died regardles if snape killed him or not, the whole tower was filled with death eaters, if snape had tried to save dumbledore he would have end up dead because he made the unbreakable vow and someother death eater would have killed dumbledore. So Snape decided he would kill dumbledore and stay as a spy for the order of the phoenix. But because harry saw him kill dumbledore snape had to run away, if he had tryed to stay with the order after harry had seen him kill dumbledore none of the order would have belived that he had no choice but to kill dumbledore. So now all the wizerding world will belive that he is truly a deatheater, but he will be the downfall of voldemort because he is really a good guy and he will try and sabatoge all the dark lords planes. Snape had no choice but to kill dumbledore.

You have summed up my thoughts exactly on the matter. I felt so bad for Severus when he realized he had no other choice. I could just feel it in the words that he didn't want to do it. But he really had no choice if he wanted to remain useful as a double agent. He'd be no good dead, and though Dumbledores death is regrettable the Order will go on without him and so will Hogwarts.

yes snape is good go to my profile and check my post (very few) but go and u will see it i dont feel like typeing it agan

First off, am I correct in thinking that no one has offered a reason here that they themselves find convincing as to why evil!Snape would consider risking the prophecy by ever sending the Order to the Ministry in OotP? Seems like anyone who wants to argue that Snape is bad needs to address that. I haven't seen an answer to that that I find remotely convincing.

If Snape was good when he was killing Dumbledore (on his orders), will he still be after doing so? My impression is that he's never been exactly stable -- unlike some characters (Dumbledore himself, for example), he's never been a bastion of goodness. He's nasty and mean and abuses his teacherly power to bully children. He has a gross inability (IMO) to separate Harry from James and takes out all his anger at James on him. He definitely has a desire for power and recognition (as the end of PoA proves), difficulty forgiving those who've wronged him (ironically, as he's a recipient himself of Dumbledore's forgiveness and mercy), and uh... yeah...

Who torments orphans who's parents they're so remorseful for killing?! I mean, seriously, I know I've asked it before, but it just really REALLY bothers me that his great remorse for inadvertently leading to the Potters' deaths was powerful enough to spur him on to betray Voldemort (when the Order was outnumber 20 to 1 and Death Eaters were picking them off like ninjas), but isn't even strong enough to restrain him from emotionally torturing an 11-year-old boy he's never met before.

Oh, anyway, the point I was getting to was that, in the absense of Dumbledore -- both his guidance and also his protection -- will Snape really fight against his own survival? Knowing the only chance he has of avoiding Azkaban and misery is if Voldemort wins now? I mean, he's never exactly been a saint among the good-guys so... I don't know how reliably he'll work to save people he despises by betraying his friends and damning his future.

Here's why I think he'll stay good. I think there was significantly more to Snape's proof of his loyalty to Dumbledore. Dumbledore talks to Harry about Snape's regret for his part in the Potters' deaths, but it's very clear in HBP that Dumbledore is hiding his true reason for trusting Snape. After Harry heard Trelawney's account of prophecy night, Dumbledore paused, as if considering whether to tell Harry the truth, then said he trusts Snape completely. He had already told Harry that Snape regretted contributing to James and Lily's deaths, why wouldn't he reiterate that if that's his only reason for trusting Snape? Whatever else it is that proves Snape's innocence also means Snape will stay good, IMO.

Also, Snape is a fascinating character. JKR has said she really enjoys writing him. I think it's because he really is good, but he seems so bad and there really is a lot of bad in him. I think it's quite possible that he hated James, but still regrets contributing to James's death. It's also quite possible that he whole-heartedly regrets contributing to Lily's death, but can't separate Harry from his hatred for James. He's got serious psychological issues, apparently stemming from his abusive father. Perhaps he even had to move his hatred for James onto Harry because James saved his life, but Harry didn't. I think his taunting of Harry comes from a sort of insecurity, not hatred, though. I mean, despite his taunting, he saved Harry from Quirrellmort.

Well, Snape could've been lying (as many have speculated) about being in on the plan.

As for Snape killing Dumbledore on Dumbledore's Order's, I'm perfectly aware that Dumbledore is a caring and intelligent man, and I agree he would die in a heartbeat to save Snape's, Harry's, Draco's, or anyone else's life, and I said as much in my post. I have some doubts however whether he would really force Snape to become a killer -- and do much damage to his soul and emotional well-being -- in order to save anyone's life, and I'm certain that he wouldn't force that of Snape merely to preserve his cover.

Yes, Dumbledore is intelligent and having a spy in Voldemort's inner circle is very valuable, but unlike Voldemort, Dumbledore is not ruthless. He makes sacrifices and takes risks that Voldemort would never take in order to ensure the well-being of individual people (regardless of how "useful" they would be). He took great risk to his own life and the safety of other students to not only protect Draco from Voldemort's punishment, but to give him the opportunity to voluntarily choose good -- not just because he wasn't strong enough to complete the task, but because he realized he didn't want to kill. That was, from a utilitarian perspective (like Voldemort's), very impractical. Dumbledore values the souls of people -- even his enemies -- more than their lives, and he values the lives of individual people more than the success of a cause. Or do you believe that if Ron or Hermione or another student who wasn't "The Chosen One" had been with Dumbledore in that cave that he would have allowed them to drink the toxic potion of awfulness simply because he was more valuable?

And it wouldn't matter if Snape were even more restless in hiding than Sirius had been (although I doubt that) because obviously Dumbledore still saw fit to keep Sirius there.

Dumbledore very well may have given Snape the order (or permission?) to kill him if a certain scenario arose, but it wouldn't be to preserve Snape's cover as a death eater, it would be to save innocent lives that were immediately endangered (like Harry's and Draco's in the scenario that happened).

And while having someone loyal to Dumbledore and "our side" as he calls it deep inside Voldemort's inner circle will be useful to Harry, it won't be half so useful as Dumbledore himself would have been.



Sorry i hope you didn't think i was being out of order there because i wasn't, i know you know that D is an intelligent caring man i never said you didn't. I was just answering to your post thats all there was nothing else to it.:D

All i was saying is that i think D dying has made Snape the best cover in the world and with him trusted as well as i see V trusting him right now then that is a big bonus to the order (not that they know) becuase he (i assume) is taking him down from inside. I think that this is what D wanted! Not to die of corse but to make Snape his most trusted. Dumbledore has been around for ages and till his death day he had never defeted Voldie he needed more to help and he now has that.

And that is just how i feel.:cool:

First off, am I correct in thinking that no one has offered a reason here that they themselves find convincing as to why evil!Snape would consider risking the prophecy by ever sending the Order to the Ministry in OotP? Seems like anyone who wants to argue that Snape is bad needs to address that. I haven't seen an answer to that that I find remotely convincing.
I cannot recall whether it was here or an older version of Snape's Betrayal, but I have seen well-thought out and well-reseached arguments about the timeline of that day in OotP. The upshot of which is was that in those posters' opinions, Snape deliberately delayed notifying the Order that Harry and Co. were on their way to the Ministry. This question keeps getting asked, and I think some of those fols are getting sick of reiterating this argument...:lol: Oh, and they also point out that Snape in Occlumency lessons may have somehow made sure Harry knew the corridor he was seeing was in the Dept. of Mysteries, and worked to make Harry nore vulnerable to Voldemort's Legilimency.

(As I am not a believer in these arguments myself, I can't really do them justice...just thought you should know they exist.)

Who torments orphans who's parents they're so remorseful for killing?! I mean, seriously, I know I've asked it before, but it just really REALLY bothers me that his great remorse for inadvertently leading to the Potters' deaths was powerful enough to spur him on to betray Voldemort (when the Order was outnumber 20 to 1 and Death Eaters were picking them off like ninjas), but isn't even strong enough to restrain him from emotionally torturing an 11-year-old boy he's never met before.

You've brought this up before...and it has just occured to me one possible reason we see this differently. Do you think Snape believes himself to be emotionally torturing Harry? (I don't).

Oh, anyway, the point I was getting to was that, in the absense of Dumbledore -- both his guidance and also his protection -- will Snape really fight against his own survival? Knowing the only chance he has of avoiding Azkaban and misery is if Voldemort wins now? I mean, he's never exactly been a saint among the good-guys so... I don't know how reliably he'll work to save people he despises by betraying his friends and damning his future.
It is my opinion that Snape would consider life as a Death Eater in a world where Voldemort was victorious miserable, for what it is worth. And since the last time he felt responsible for someone's death, it (as you stated so eloquently yourself) drove him to change sides at a time when Voldemort appeared to be winning, I can only hope that the pattern will hold, and his killing of Dumbledore will again motivate him to side with the good guys.

Hi! Why would Snape's bluffing make you think he was not on the good side? WHen I read 'Spinner's End', I saw it as being all about us seeing Snape the Spy for the Good Guys in action, spying on Death Eaters (and their wives...)

This is why he would bluff, I thought. What have the ladies told him at the moment that he 'admits' he knows the plan? Why, that Narcissa wants to talk to him about a plan of Voldemort's, but it is oh so secret and oh so important that she is really afraid to bring it up, and oh so loyal Bella doesn't think she should mention it to Snape at all. Any spy would want to hear more about the plan at this point! And a good way to shut Bella up is to claim he already knows it. Then talking about it isn't really betraying the Dark Lord...

It does mean there is no way Snape and Dumbledore discussed the Unbreakable Vow in advance, but I do not see this is a problem. Dumbledore can't possibly expect Snape to discuss everything he ever does with Dumbledore in advance. If he really trusts him, he would let him deal with unexpected and possibly advantageous events (just like a visit from Bella and CIssy) on his own initiative.

From there, Snape could have been pretty upset with himself for not seeing that Narcissa was going to ask him to do the deed himself....and would go and let Dumbledore know he had committed himself with a Vow to carrying out some unspecified task. Then later, probably after the Katie Bell incident, they both would have figured out what the task was...


What about the argument Hagrid overheard between Dumbledore and Snape? I was thinking he wanted to back out of something he promised Dumbledore. Maybe he wanted to break the vow with Cissy even though it would result in his death. What do you think?

What about the argument Hagrid overheard between Dumbledore and Snape? I was thinking he wanted to back out of something he promised Dumbledore. Maybe he wanted to break the vow with Cissy even though it would result in his death. What do you think?


That's a great theory! it would fit perfectly into my theory. Snape wanted to kill himself to protect dumbledore, but dumbledore would not hear of it. :clap: good idea!

You've brought this up before...and it has just occured to me one possible reason we see this differently. Do you think Snape believes himself to be emotionally torturing Harry? (I don't).

I think you are on to something here! I have always thought that Snape was trying to toughen Harry up. That he knew the prophecy and knew that Harry would have to face a very dangerous wizard again and again until one of them is defeated.

It is interesting that we forgive Dumbledore for leaving Harry with the Dursleys (for eleven years of mistreatment!) in order to help prepare him for his destiny but we get our noses out of joint over the fact that Snape gives him detentions and makes his life difficult.

Wow! OK so I just joined this community but have spent the last two days reading posts. There are sooo many! I'm particularily interested in Snape and his character. After reading the 6th book I have been obsessed with this topic. I personally beleive that Snape is good. I don't think that he has a heart of gold, no one is 100% pure, but I do think that he is undoubtably good. There are many reasons why I think this but my number one reason is that Dumbledore trusted him, and while some may argue that Dumbledore was too trusting, I say poo to them because Dumbledore is NOT DUMB! I trust Dumbledore's character and I do not believe that he would have let a death eater teach at his school for so long. I think that there is a greater reason for D trusting Snape not the lame theory that he felt bad about killing Harry's partents.

Anyway, there are some great arguments here and I cannot wait to join in more!

My question of the day? Wether you believe that Snape is evil or not... why do you think that Voldemort did not use Snape to get to Harry? Snape would be the obvious source for Voldemort to get to Harry and finish him off, and yet he hasn't. Example: Voldemort used faux-mad-eye to made the fake portkey that led him to Voldemort in the 4th book, why not Snape??? My answer... Voldemort does not trust Snape... why?... cause Snape is good!!!

Why do you think Voldemort hasn't used Snape to get to Harry?

I think you are on to something here! I have always thought that Snape was trying to toughen Harry up. That he knew the prophecy and knew that Harry would have to face a very dangerous wizard again and again until one of them is defeated.

It is interesting that we forgive Dumbledore for leaving Harry with the Dursleys (for eleven years of mistreatment!) in order to help prepare him for his destiny but we get our noses out of joint over the fact that Snape gives him detentions and makes his life difficult.

I don't think Snape is deliberately being 'tough' on Harry for his own good either. I think he thinks he's just being a fair thought strict teacher. He has no clue how to be nicer to kids basically because he's not had a past in which he would have learned that.

Why do you think Voldemort hasn't used Snape to get to Harry?


I think he wants to finish Harry off himself because of the prophecy-- he wants to make sure he is dead so he cannot be "the one to defeat the Dark Lord".

Voldemort used Quirrell to get to Harry, but I would argue that Voldemort was actually there at the time so he was more or less doing it himself through Quirrell's body. He used Fake!Moody to help him get Harry to where he would be. Maybe Voldemort hasn't seen the same kind of opportunity to use Snape to help him get Harry to where he can finish him off.

Well i never really saw snape as being a good person, but as who's side he's on it definately makes since what everyone is saying. Even though it looks so obvious that he is on V's side, that is why i must think there is more to it, and he could still be a spy, because he would now have even more trust with V, and be able to get even closer than before. It just seems that in every other HP book, JK has used deception to draw us away from the main point until the climax of the books. (ie PS/SS when we are blinded by the hints that snape is evil to see quirrel, and in PoA, we r thinkin sirius is evil the entire time and thats why he is trying to get to harry, and there are many more obvious examples). In HPB, JK hints and shows that snape is evil and really a double spy for the dark side to assist Draco throughout the entire book, and then in the end, thats exactly what ends up happening. This is what is fishy. What was being said the entire book, and the views of Harry ended up being fulfilled without any twists. SO i think there is more to come, something unexpected regarding Snape. if that makes sense.

I don't think Snape is deliberately being 'tough' on Harry for his own good either. I think he thinks he's just being a fair thought strict teacher. He has no clue how to be nicer to kids basically because he's not had a past in which he would have learned that.

I don't see Snape as being a fair teacher-- particularly not to Hermione or Neville, I see him being fairly "nice" to Draco in particular even when he doesn't deserve it.

In the chapter "The flight of the Prince" the idea that he is trying to toughen Harry up for his own good seemed very real to me, he was giving Harry advice as he blocked his spells and only fought back when he lost his temper.

I don't see Snape as being a fair teacher-- particularly not to Hermione or Neville, I see him being fairly "nice" to Draco in particular even when he doesn't deserve it.I have to say that I really don't think Snape has shown a lot of unfairness to Hermione, for instance we know that at least in her first year he gave her a really good grade (Lucius complained about her grades being better than Draco's). MOST of the times Snape has been hard on the trio you can dissect the incident to be read differently.

Yes, he usually sides with Draco when they're hexing each other in the halls - but Snape also usually comes in after the fact and all he sees (or 'should' see without legilimency) is a polite and respectful Draco complaining and an irate and disrespectful Harry (and Ron usually) yelling.

IF he was to base his punishments upon legilimency instead of what appears to have happened, then Draco (or his father) would probably eventually work out that Snape's a legilimens. Of course that's now a known fact after Snape and Draco's little talk at the Christmas Party. But it probably was preferred that no Death Eater know this if it could be avoided.

It's really the way he treats Neville that I find more bothersome, but then I must remind myself that Neville is the child of parents who defied Voldy three times. Can Snape afford to appear to coddle Neville in front of Death Eater's children? Especially once we understand that he's using TRUE memories to hide his lies from Voldy. When Voldy came back memories of Snape's treatment of Neville and Harry (prophecy), Hermione (muggle-born) and Ron (whose father works on making muggle-protection laws) may just have helped Snape keep spying.

I have to say that I really don't think Snape has shown a lot of unfairness to Hermione, for instance we know that at least in her first year he gave her a really good grade (Lucius complained about her grades being better than Draco's). MOST of the times Snape has been hard on the trio you can dissect the incident to be read differently.

Yes, he usually sides with Draco when they're hexing each other in the halls - but Snape also usually comes in after the fact and all he sees (or 'should' see without legilimency) is a polite and respectful Draco complaining and an irate and disrespectful Harry (and Ron usually) yelling.

IF he was to base his punishments upon legilimency instead of what appears to have happened, then Draco (or his father) would probably eventually work out that Snape's a legilimens. Of course that's now a known fact after Snape and Draco's little talk at the Christmas Party. But it probably was preferred that no Death Eater know this if it could be avoided.

It's really the way he treats Neville that I find more bothersome, but then I must remind myself that Neville is the child of parents who defied Voldy three times. Can Snape afford to appear to coddle Neville in front of Death Eater's children? Especially once we understand that he's using TRUE memories to hide his lies from Voldy. When Voldy came back memories of Snape's treatment of Neville and Harry (prophecy), Hermione (muggle-born) and Ron (whose father works on making muggle-protection laws) may just have helped Snape keep spying.

I was basing the "unfairness" on the way he acts when Hermione wants to answer a question-- as if she is the last resort and he would rather not call on her. It is true that Snape gave her a good mark, which is fair of course.

Yes, you are right Snape usually arrives after the fact and sees Harry hexing Draco and Harry and Ron being disrespectful and argumentative--his timing is brilliant isn't it? ;)

Basing his treatment of the trio and Neville on what Voldemort will be able to read in his mind is probably what he is doing, great insight hwyla! I didn't think of that.

:wow: What? Of course Snape is an unfair teacher, he's horrible! JKR even says in her interviews that he's a teacher who bullies children (which she considers shabby) based on a bullying teacher she herself had.

McGonnagall is fair, yet strict. Snape is not. His motives for being unfair may be debated -- trying to keep up appearances in front of Death Eaters' children (which I doubt to some degree for various reasons), lashing out because of his own emotional issues, or simply doesn't realize how much his words hurt children? In Harry's case at least, I'd bet he he sees so much James in Harry, he thinks Harry's ego (which is considerably smaller than James') needs to be deflated as much as humanly possible. I doubt he doesn't also enjoy it, but considering how spoiled he thought James was by teachers, he may feel he needs to take Harry down a notch whenever he gets a chance for his own good.

I don't think his treatment of schoolchildren is of much concern to Voldemort, though -- if he weren't exceptionally harsh to Harry, Neville, Hermione, or Ron (or all non-Slytherins as we learn is the case, repeatedly), all he would have to say is that under Dumbledore's eye he exercises self-control. I don't think Voldemort would think twice of it.

Anyway -- as for the MoM example -- this was just being debated in Snape's Betrayal thread too. The best explanation for Evil!Snape alerting the ministry that I've heard is that Voldemort wanted the order to show up eventually (but too late) and take the fall for all the damage -- discrediting several of their important spies in the Ministry, and discrediting Dumbledore and Harry further if possible. But this is sketchy to me.

There's also Self-Serving!Snape who may have alerted the order to cover his own cover with Dumbledore or to prevent Voldemort from getting the prophecy (and therefore blaming him for not telling the whole thing).

I kind of think this is the best argument for Good!Snape, though... and the delay, I already hashed out in another thread, so I'm too tired to now...

Oh, and I don't know if this was clear, but I wasn't using the fact that Snape (IMO) mistreats Harry as an argument that he was evil (or loyal to Voldemort in any case), but just trying to wrap my brain around it because it's hard to understand.

You know how Harry's series-long quest is to defeat Voldemort... maybe Snape's mission or whatever (though he doesn't know it -- so JKR's ultimate battle for him, or whatever) is simply to finally realize that Harry's not James, but an entirely unique human being who never pantsed him and that he should let it go. Or something like that. I'm tired; bye.

I was basing the "unfairness" on the way he acts when Hermione wants to answer a question-- as if she is the last resort and he would rather not call on her. It is true that Snape gave her a good mark, which is fair of course.Well, if Hermione has her hand up for every question (probably) then the rest of the class doesn't need to bother. You see that in classrooms all over the world. The rest of the class disengages their minds and just let the know-it-all answer all the questions. Additionally, she really can't take a hint. She has her hand up even when Snape is obviously not asking for an answer.

Yes, you are right Snape usually arrives after the fact and sees Harry hexing Draco and Harry and Ron being disrespectful and argumentative--his timing is brilliant isn't it? ;)yes - I think it must be on purpose, so that he doesn't have to side with Harry over Draco.

Hi! Why would Snape's bluffing make you think he was not on the good side? WHen I read 'Spinner's End', I saw it as being all about us seeing Snape the Spy for the Good Guys in action, spying on Death Eaters (and their wives...)
I know this is from a while ago but that last bit made me smile :D

:wow: What? Of course Snape is an unfair teacher, he's horrible! JKR even says in her interviews that he's a teacher who bullies children (which she considers shabby) based on a bullying teacher she herself had.

Yes, he is. I am just not so sure HE knows that. Which, for me, works out with the whole 'deep remorse' story. It would look stranger if I thought Snape was doing this because he really hates Harry. (Not sure if any of this was directed at me...but my post seemed to set off several posts about Snape's unfairness as a teacher.:lol: )

WOW, I often seem to follow people from one thread to another...don't mean to :rotfl:
Okay, Okay, I can't get enough of it!

From there, Snape could have been pretty upset with himself for not seeing that Narcissa was going to ask him to do the deed himself....and would go and let Dumbledore know he had committed himself with a Vow to carrying out some unspecified task. Then later, probably after the Katie Bell incident, they both would have figured out what the task was...

Is there any indication that Snape did not use Legilimency to find out what the mission was right then? We know that Bella knows Occlumency since she is teaching Draco, but we don't know if Narcissa knows it, do we? ....thus, Snape could learn about it from her.

It is interesting that we forgive Dumbledore for leaving Harry with the Dursleys (for eleven years of mistreatment!) in order to help prepare him for his destiny but we get our noses out of joint over the fact that Snape gives him detentions and makes his life difficult.

Ah yes, I guess we forgive Dumbledore because we actually see him being nice to Harry and being remorseful about Harry's poor treatment. A subtle difference, but good point.

Well, if Hermione has her hand up for every question (probably) then the rest of the class doesn't need to bother. You see that in classrooms all over the world. The rest of the class disengages their minds and just let the know-it-all answer all the questions. Additionally, she really can't take a hint. She has her hand up even when Snape is obviously not asking for an answer.

Okay, I'll respond to this basically because in many ways, Hermione always reminds me of...well, me. As I have gotten older, I have realized that others need to express themselves in class as well. I may often know the answer, but how do others learn if they don't try and answer the questions too? Sometimes I am banging my head on the desk waiting for them to come to the right conclusion, but hwyla makes an excellent point. Others do not learn if only one person participates, and Snape realizes this. He isn't exactly nice when he goes about it (calling Hermione and insufferable know-it-all, which she is, but no other teacher calls her that).

What? Of course Snape is an unfair teacher, he's horrible! JKR even says in her interviews that he's a teacher who bullies children (which she considers shabby) based on a bullying teacher she herself had.

McGonnagall is fair, yet strict. Snape is not. His motives for being unfair may be debated --

:clap:

I have been thinking on the idea that Snape either doesn't see himself as too hard on Harry, or he sees himself as being hard with good reason. I like to think that he sees himself as being hard, is aware of it, but does it because he thinks it is necessary.

I have been wondering if there is any evidence in the books that he actually feels any remorse over the fact that he has (in his opinion) to be so hard on Harry. I can't find anything at this point. Can any one else think of any moments when a change in expression or a certain look away or anything have given him away?

WOW, I often seem to follow people from one thread to another...don't mean to :rotfl:
Okay, Okay, I can't get enough of it!

But Snape is so INTERESTING.:lol:


Is there any indication that Snape did not use Legilimency to find out what the mission was right then? We know that Bella knows Occlumency since she is teaching Draco, but we don't know if Narcissa knows it, do we? ....thus, Snape could learn about it from her.

I bet he tried, but did he succeed? Legilimency is not mind-reading, the mind is not like a book, yada yada. And probably he did not want Narcissa to suspect what he was up to, which might limit how much he could drag up. Her top-of-mind thoughts may have been more along the lines of the risks for Draco if he fails, or gets caught. Or, maybe he figured it out right then, I am a fence sitter about this, really. That he did not know, even at the end of the scene, was just my (rather strong) first impression. Many fine posts by others later, I am less sure.

Okay, I'll respond to this basically because in many ways, Hermione always reminds me of...well, me. As I have gotten older, I have realized that others need to express themselves in class as well. I may often know the answer, but how do oth.ers learn if they don't try and answer the questions too? Sometimes I am banging my head on the desk waiting for them to come to the right conclusion, but hwyla makes an excellent point. Others do not learn if only one person participates, and Snape realizes this. He isn't exactly nice when he goes about it (calling Hermione and insufferable know-it-all, which she is, but no other teacher calls her that).

Yeah, I had a few teachers in school who occasionally phrased questions with a parenthetic (anyone other than Zara?) too. But they were funny and friendly about it, which Snape isn't. But he just doesn't seem to do friendly with anyone.

I don't see Snape as being a fair teacher-- particularly not to Hermione or Neville, I see him being fairly "nice" to Draco in particular even when he doesn't deserve it.
I agree. In my opinion, he thinks he is. (I knew I should have italicized that...)

I would not call what he is to Draco nice, exactly. More tolerant?

I agree. In my opinion, he thinks he is. (I knew I should have italicized that...) I tend to disagree at the moment, unless I interpret that as he thinks he is being nice because he is helping them to toughen up.

I would not call what he is to Draco nice, exactly. More tolerant?

I agree that tolerant is a better word than nice, Snape does tolerate Draco and the other Slytherins far more-- he allows them to make comments, to snicker and to not know the answers.

...I have been wondering if there is any evidence in the books that he actually feels any remorse over the fact that he has (in his opinion) to be so hard on Harry. I can't find anything at this point. Can any one else think of any moments when a change in expression or a certain look away or anything have given him away?Well, during one of the occlumency lessons, when Harry asks if he can see his thoughts (the one with the dog chasing him and cho kissing him - I've forgotten what the 3rd memory was, but it was worse than the dog one) he asks Harry whose dog it was. Many people of course see this as needling Harry, but it was considerably kinder than bringing up Cho and the kiss, which Harry felt exceptionally vulnerable over.

Plus he allows them to use racial slurs in class, apparently... sorry, that part of CoS just always bugs me given that the m-word is supposed to be so phenomonally vile in the Potterverse.

In any case, ignoring Hermione or being annoyed with her is one thing, and even taking points off for answering questions when no one else is forthcoming is still... well, it's an entirely different thing all together when Draco jinxes her teeth to grow cartoon-beaverishly and the teacher claims he doesn't see the difference. That was just *really* nasty, IMO.

And of course mocking a student's inability to apparate in a classroom is pretty low and unprofessional and immature, but for me the cincher is when he lays into James. It's really not just that he's a harsh or intimidating teacher or that he has a somewhat nasty sense of humor or threatens to kill their pet toads -- how can any adult justify taunting an orphan about his dead father? I know he really hates James, but that's the one that really, REALLY bothers me.

But at the risk of turning into a broken record, let's veer slightly from this because I don't think any of us will ever agree.

It's interesting that he always goes on about James "arrogance" and inability to follow rules. I didn't get the impression that Prince followed rules, and generally boys that nickname themselves with royal titles (mother's maiden-name not withstanding) are not considered especially humble. :D

I wonder if he didn't call James a bully because he didn't want to acknowledge that he'd been bullied (and seem weak) or if he really didn't consider him one. If kids were Levicorpusing each other as much as Lupin said they were (and even if he was exaggerating, it was still alot), SWM takes on a whole new perspective. The whole bared underwear thing seems like nothing, and if kids were flipping each other upside-down that often, I'd be really, really surprised if he was the first to get pantsed.

It seemed harsh to Harry at the time, but Voldemort had only been back in power for a year and no one believed it. In Snape's time, Voldemort was reaching the height of his powers -- he was picking off order members one by one, everyone in school was losing loved ones or risking losing loved ones to this collassal war that was going on. So maybe kids were just harsher then.
(not that it justifies what the Marauders did, but puts it in a different perspective).

anyone agree or disagree with my logic on my last post? (previous page i think)

Well, during one of the occlumency lessons, when Harry asks if he can see his thoughts (the one with the dog chasing him and cho kissing him - I've forgotten what the 3rd memory was, but it was worse than the dog one) he asks Harry whose dog it was. Many people of course see this as needling Harry, but it was considerably kinder than bringing up Cho and the kiss, which Harry felt exceptionally vulnerable over.

Yes, thank you hwyla, this could be the kind of thing I am looking for. I like that interpretation-- I had been thinking along the lines that if Snape were to bring up the kiss he would leave himself open to Harry's ruminating on whether Snape is envious because he has never been kissed-- or whether Snape has actually kissed someone, someone that he doesn't want Harry to know about? (ok I admit it, I am in the Snape loved Lily camp and that's not for here :blush: ) so he brought up the dog to steer the conversation that way.

anyone agree or disagree with my logic on my last post? (previous page i think)
I thought I did. Sorry -- yeah, I agree -- I think you had a lot of insight about Harry usually being wrong about a few things.

Harry was spot on about every suspicion he had pretty much in HBP and that was a little disconcerting. Especially as so many of his suspicions were relatively unfounded. The other characters were perfectly right to doubt him about a lot of it -- he had very little proof if any, and was basing his assessments on raw emotions. Remember Harry didn't stop trusting Snape in "The Unbreakable Vow" in HBP -- he stopped trusting Snape in "The Lost Prophecy" in OotP because it felt satisfying to blame Snape for Sirius' death.

A few hours before he was convinced that Snape -- however nasty or tempermental -- was a sincere member of the order and would help him. Nothing evidential happened to change his mind -- he switched it because he was angry.

This is completely against the patterns of the book. So either JKR is using the Harry filter to trick us into believing Snape is evil (which is what she's usually done) -- OR JKR's so convinced that we've wised up to her methods, that she used the Harry filter as a diversion to trick into doubting that Snape was evil.

I mean, after all, how many people were surprised at the end of HBP? How many people couldn't believe it -- had never actually expected it? We got clues all book long that Snape might really be in league with Voldemort, and yet I for one didn't believe them because, subconsciously, I remembered that I was seeing nearly everything through Harry's eyes and that Harry hated and distrusted Snape for emotional reasons, so he would probably turn out wrong like usual.

Of course, JKR knows that a lot of people really like Snape and wanted to believe him good (obviously, these forums are proof of just that) -- so maybe she was banking on that and are own familiarity with her method of using "The Harry Filter" to trick us, and so we completely overlooked the obvious.

Or maybe she means to pull a one-two, and he'll turn out good in the next book. I really can't tell, but I think whichever she's decided on, she'll pull it off really well.

I don't think it's a matter of good or evil. I think it's a matter of doing what is basically right or wrong. Snape already did something wrong the night he to Voldemort about the prophacy. And I don't think Snape would "willingly" kill anyone. As for his treatment of Harry. As humans, when we feel very, very guilty about something,and don't want to admit what we've done we tend to lash out at the person we comitted the wrong against. Why this is I don't know, but we do. We act defensively. I think Snape feels so guilty about Lily in peticular, and knows "I'm sorry" won't cut it, that he lashed out at Harry, especially since "he has his mothers eyes"(a daily reminder to snape).
All in all, I think Severus Snape will chose to do what's right in the end.

This is completely against the patterns of the book. So either JKR is using the Harry filter to trick us into believing Snape is evil (which is what she's usually done) -- OR JKR's so convinced that we've wised up to her methods, that she used the Harry filter as a diversion to trick into doubting that Snape was evil.

I mean, after all, how many people were surprised at the end of HBP? How many people couldn't believe it -- had never actually expected it? We got clues all book long that Snape might really be in league with Voldemort, and yet I for one didn't believe them because, subconsciously, I remembered that I was seeing nearly everything through Harry's eyes and that Harry hated and distrusted Snape for emotional reasons, so he would probably turn out wrong like usual.

Of course, JKR knows that a lot of people really like Snape and wanted to believe him good (obviously, these forums are proof of just that) -- so maybe she was banking on that and are own familiarity with her method of using "The Harry Filter" to trick us, and so we completely overlooked the obvious.

Or maybe she means to pull a one-two, and he'll turn out good in the next book. I really can't tell, but I think whichever she's decided on, she'll pull it off really well.

I completely agree with you, which is why I think Jo is so brilliant. It would be just like her to lead us down the wrong path over and over again for books 1-5 and then pull one over on us in Book 6. I tend to be in the Snape is good camp, only because I want him to be good because I want there to be good in everyone (I also want Voldemort to end up as good, sweet, innocent Tom Riddle :rotfl: ). She set it up perfectly so that everything that we read can have two meanings, depending on what camp you are in.

CelestLBeing, I agree with your post completely. We humans do tend to lash out at the person closest to you when something really hurts. Snape is often cruel and hard on Harry, whether if that's because of his position as a spy and he must or because his grudge against James transfered to Harry or whatever the reason, Harry tends to take that as justification for him lashing out at Snape. He refuses to trust Snape even when Snape gives him a reason to do so. Harry also can't separate his feelings for Snape and see beyond the Snape he thinks he knows. For example, who does Harry blame for Sirius' death? Snape. He says at the end of the OOTP that he will never forgive Snape for this. But how is it Snape's fault? He didn't rush off blindly to the Ministry of Magic; he did alert Order members. I'm not saying SIrius' death was Harry's fault either, but he places blame on Snape because Snape is an easy target on whom he can take out his aggressions and frustrations.

The lashing out from guilt point is an interesting one. It's also really why Percy hasn't come back to the Weasely fold. On that topic, Dumbledore said something about how it's often easier to forgive people for wronging you than it is to forgive yourself for wronging them. He/JKR worded much more poetically.

I'm not saying SIrius' death was Harry's fault either, but he places blame on Snape because Snape is an easy target on whom he can take out his aggressions and frustrations.

The question of causation is also a really interesting point, I think. I once went over in my mind all the people who could have prevented Sirius's death by acting differently in OotP and there are lots. Recently, I was noticing that at the end of PS/SS, there's some pretty solid closure. I mean, we all knew Voldemort would come back to power eventually and Harry would have to re-defeat him, but the danger was over. CoS was almost discontinuous, and its story line basically completely comes to a halt at the end. We learned some things that come back in a meaningful way, but it's different from the later books.

In PoA, Sirius sees the picture of Pettigrew with Ron in Egypt, and I see that as setting off the remainder of the series. Sirius escapes from prison to get revenge on Peter, Peter escapes and has no place left to go but back to Voldemort, Voldemort returns to power, yada yada. Practically every significant character older than Harry could have changed the course of events -- even Fred and George, which was a crazy realization to me. What if they hadn't given Harry the Marauders' Map? Lupin would not have had the map to know to go to the Shrieking shack, and Snape wouldn't have gone either. Harry either would have killed Sirius (still thinking Sirius was evil and Pettigrew would have stayed as Ron's pet) or not having Lupin's transformation would have meant Sirius and the trio could get Pettigrew back to the castle safely.

This has been discussed before, but it is about the idea that Snape was bluffing that he knew Voldemorts orders.
I have many problems with this. For starters I can’t believe that Snape is so stupid that he couldn’t have worked it out before the vow.
The second problem has to do with what happens if Voldemort learns Snape claimed this knowledge. Voldemort would know he didn’t tell him, so Snape’s cover would be blown. And was it realistic for Snape to assume that Voldemort wouldn’t find out? I don’t think so.
Bellatrix would certainly want to check this with Voldemort, if only she had a chance. And Snape can’t know if in the year following this vow she wouldn’t get a chance. She may have been unfaithful herself because she talked about this order, but she is furiously dedicated to Voldemort and very distrustful of Snape, she certainly could take this chance.
And then there is Wormtail. Snape knows his listening habits, and Snape’s soft speaking last only one sentence. Wormtail could very well have heard the whole conversation which followed. And Snape has to assume that Wormtails makes his own rapports to Voldemort. He just couldn’t take the risk with bluffing.

I don't see Snape as being a fair teacher-- particularly not to Hermione or Neville, I see him being fairly "nice" to Draco in particular even when he doesn't deserve it.

In the chapter "The flight of the Prince" the idea that he is trying to toughen Harry up for his own good seemed very real to me, he was giving Harry advice as he blocked his spells and only fought back when he lost his temper.

I think Snape just simply DISLIKES children. He barely tolerates those in his own house, he's downright cruel to the ones in the other houses.

So, why is he a teacher? Because after his foray into DeathEater land, no one else would trust him besides Dumbledore.

I think he does what he can, and what he HAS to do, as far as a teacher, but he doesn't seem to particularly like dealing with children. I think Harry stirs up his old hatred of James (and a few other things but see the Snape/Lily thread), and he has a hard time controlling himself when Harry ACTS Jamesian.

But I think he just doesn't particularly like children whatsoever.
(Which I admit I can sort of empathize with - sigh)

I have many problems with this. For starters I can’t believe that Snape is so stupid that he couldn’t have worked it out before the vow.

Did you? I must admit I thought it might be to kill or kidnap Harry. My heart was literally in my throat when Draco caught Harry on the train. The broken nose was a relief... (Yes, yes, I know, she wouldn't kill off the hero in Book 6 of a 7 book series...but still.) And it could be other things, having perhaps to do with the magic of Hogwarts, such Founder's artifacts ot the Chamber of Secrets.

The second problem has to do with what happens if Voldemort learns Snape claimed this knowledge. Voldemort would know he didn’t tell him, so Snape’s cover would be blown. And was it realistic for Snape to assume that Voldemort wouldn’t find out? I don’t think so.
No, this would not blow his cover. Even Bella, eventually, decides she understands the motivation for the Vow. She (probably) convinces Draco that Snape just wants in on the plan to steal Draco's glory.

Did you? I must admit I thought it might be to kill or kidnap Harry. My heart was literally in my throat when Draco caught Harry on the train. The broken nose was a relief... (Yes, yes, I know, she wouldn't kill off the hero in Book 6 of a 7 book series...but still.) And it could be other things, having perhaps to do with the magic of Hogwarts, such Founder's artifacts ot the Chamber of Secrets.
Usually I miss most of the twists JKR tells us, but this one seemed plain, and, unusually, was plain. Something Draco could do (probably, but not necessary Hogwarts), something Voldemort never managed (and known not to have managed, this leaves only Dumbledore and Harry, not some mysterious thing we never heard about), and something very dangerous which Draco probably couldn’t do, but Snape could according to Narcissa. This last part points clearly to Dumbledore. But Snape, even if he wasn’t sure who the target was knew enough to stop there. No vow needed.
Another thing is that if Snape didn’t know the order at that moment he still didn’t know it at the end of Spinners end. But Dumbledore knew Draco’s task. Who else but Snape could have told him that? And how could Snape know the task if he didn’t already know it? We don’t get any clue about Snape learning it in another way.
No, this would not blow his cover. Even Bella, eventually, decides she understands the motivation for the Vow. She (probably) convinces Draco that Snape just wants in on the plan to steal Draco's gloryWhy do you think Bella understands Snape’s motivation? She is described at being astonished in spinners end, and I don’t think we meet her again. For all we know she is completely astounded Snape took the vow. Draco is quit capable to think for himself about Snape wanting to steal his glory. Besides: the wording of the vow is thus that Narcissa (rather clever) assured that Draco had the first shot, and Bellatrix heard this.

Voldemort would not understand Snape's claim to know the plan to kill Dumbledore before a vow is mentioned. Voldemort would know that Snape lied about a conversation between himself and Snape. Now that is something which wouldn’t impress Voldemort.

The question of causation is also a really interesting point, I think. I once went over in my mind all the people who could have prevented Sirius's death by acting differently in OotP and there are lots. Recently, I was noticing that at the end of PS/SS, there's some pretty solid closure. I mean, we all knew Voldemort would come back to power eventually and Harry would have to re-defeat him, but the danger was over. CoS was almost discontinuous, and its story line basically completely comes to a halt at the end. We learned some things that come back in a meaningful way, but it's different from the later books.

In PoA, Sirius sees the picture of Pettigrew with Ron in Egypt, and I see that as setting off the remainder of the series. Sirius escapes from prison to get revenge on Peter, Peter escapes and has no place left to go but back to Voldemort, Voldemort returns to power, yada yada. Practically every significant character older than Harry could have changed the course of events -- even Fred and George, which was a crazy realization to me. What if they hadn't given Harry the Marauders' Map? Lupin would not have had the map to know to go to the Shrieking shack, and Snape wouldn't have gone either. Harry either would have killed Sirius (still thinking Sirius was evil and Pettigrew would have stayed as Ron's pet) or not having Lupin's transformation would have meant Sirius and the trio could get Pettigrew back to the castle safely.

This is a very astute observation. I am trying to remember as I am writing this, but I agree with you on this...one and two seem to have definitive ends. Very few things come through in later books, and most of those things seem to be along the minor details (like the Ford Anglia in the Forbidden Forests, centaurs, Aragog). It is not on the same scale whatsoever as causation from one book to the other later on in the series. Great thinking :tu:

Usually I miss most of the twists JKR tells us, but this one seemed plain, and, unusually, was plain.

Then you were miles ahead of me, too. It's kind of hard to remember my initial reaction in July because since then, my reread obviously was with the insight of what the vow entailed, but I also thought that Voldemort gave him some ridiculously stupid, unimportant job or else asked him to go after Harry (which didn't make too much sense because Voldemort is so ridiculously set on killing Harry himself when any student could do it on a daily basis for him in Hogwarts...oh well, they go to Azkaban, but Harry Potter would be no more :evil: LOL--potions class could be a lot more interesting!

Usually I miss most of the twists JKR tells us, but this one seemed plain, and, unusually, was plain.

OK, I was being dense...:sigh:

But Snape, even if he wasn’t sure who the target was knew enough to stop there. No vow needed.
Ah, but the Vow does serve a purpose still. It matters HOW and WHEN Draco will do it (as we saw...) The Vow gives Snape an ironclad reason to take an interest.

Another thing is that if Snape didn’t know the order at that moment he still didn’t know it at the end of Spinners end. But Dumbledore knew Draco’s task. Who else but Snape could have told him that? And how could Snape know the task if he didn’t already know it? We don’t get any clue about Snape learning it in another way.

Snape appears to know the task at Slughorn's Christmas party. It occurs after the Katie Bell incident, so at that point he and/or Dumbledore could have figured it out.

Why do you think Bella understands Snape’s motivation? She is described at being astonished in spinners end, and I don’t think we meet her again.

My deduction is based on the conversation Snape and Draco have the night of the Christmas party. We learn that Auntie Bella has been teaching Draco Occlumency. I would have guessed pre-HBP that Draco and Snape had a better relationship than what we see in that scene, so I concluded Draco's attitude might be showing the influence of Auntie Bella, as well. Even if it is Draco's own idea, it is a reasonable one.
Besides: the wording of the vow is thus that Narcissa (rather clever) assured that Draco had the first shot, and Bellatrix heard this.

The wording of the Vow does not prevent Snape from stepping in early if he so desires.
Voldemort would not understand Snape's claim to know the plan to kill Dumbledore before a vow is mentioned. Voldemort would know that Snape lied about a conversation between himself and Snape. Now that is something which wouldn’t impress Voldemort.
Perhaps not, but I get the impression Death Eaters lie about what Voldmeort says to them to other Death Eaters regularly. Claiming to know about a top secret plan is a way to claim one is close to the Dark Lord (even if one is not). I don't think it is a killing offense.

Whether or not Snape was bluffing seems to be a real issue. I do not think he was bluffing for one simple reeason. The things Dumbledore said to the Dursleys. Why did he request they allow him(Harry) to return once more before coming of age? I think Dumbledore knew then what Draco had been told to do. Dumbledore never worried about Harry being allowed back before, and before he told them, the Dursleys didn't know anything about wizards coming of age at 17. He was saying things then as if he didn't expect to be around to say them later. I think Snape told Dumbledore the plan after learning about it from Voldemort. He certainly didn't hear about it from the sisters because it was never actually clarified at spinners end. Which shows Snape was true to Dumbldore. And because of this thread I've had to re-read book 6!!!

OK, I was being dense...:sigh:
No No This was not what I meant at all. We, as readers, have learned that JKR twists and turns. So what seems straightforward at first glance can have a different or deeper meaning. I have noticed that most readers read nowadays Harry Potter like everything has a different meaning. This leads to all kind of different theories and lot of speculation. Look at all the threads on this site. So if something strange happens a lot of readers automatically look for something deeper etc. In this case I didn’t, because IMHO usually the hints and clues are rather straight. But this means that I miss most turns in the books.
Snape, and the other characters, don’t have this knowledge about the way JKR writes. For them clues are very straight, they don’t know JKR, she is a muggle after all. They are supposed just to understand what they are told. Now Snape is very intelligent. Snape is capable of deceiving at least one of the two greatest wizards of this time. Yet he is also supposed not to understands the hints he has been given? It just doesn’t fit. Where was his intelligence now?
Besides, how can a legimilens like Snape failed to pick up from Narcissa what the plan was?
Ah, but the Vow does serve a purpose still. It matters HOW and WHEN Draco will do it (as we saw...) The Vow gives Snape an ironclad reason to take an interest.
But hindsight tells us that this didn’t work out like that. The vow didn’t serve this purpose. How can an intelligent man like Snape suppose that because he takes a vow with the mother of a teenager (who always shows himself to be important) that this teenager will tell him all his plans? Because his mother forced someone else to take a vow? This man has been teaching long enough to know how a 16 year old will react on mothers interfering.
My deduction is based on the conversation Snape and Draco have the night of the Christmas party. We learn that Auntie Bella has been teaching Draco Occlumency.
Since we already know that Bella is astonished that Snape takes the vow I can’t really see her changing her opinion without us being given a clue. We are told how Bella reacts and its all fun to speculate but to speculate that something is contrary to what we are told…
The wording of the Vow does not prevent Snape from stepping in early if he so desires.
Yes, but I made this point because you assumed that Bella thought that Snape made the vow because he wanted to steal the glory. I mean that Bella cannot have thought that to be the reason for the vow, because the vow gives Draco the first shot. Now I not only agree that Snape could have stepped in earlier, I also think that this undermines your own feeling. If Bella thinks that Snape took the vow to steal the glory she would also realise that the vow doesn’t attribute to this. Snape can steal the glory just by stepping in early; the vow does not serve a purpose in stealing glory.
Perhaps not, but I get the impression Death Eaters lie about what Voldmeort says to them to other Death Eaters regularly. Claiming to know about a top secret plan is a way to claim one is close to the Dark Lord (even if one is not). I don't think it is a killing offense.
Here we just differ. I think that Voldemort can very well lie to deatheaters but I don’t think that deatheaters dare to lie about what Voldemort himself says.
The word of the dark lord is law is stated very clearly. And the reactions of the deatheaters in the flight of the Prince show that they take this very serious. This shows great respect for his words, I can’t imagine that a deatheater dares to lie about these words, however trivial the circumstances.
That is not something to be treated lightly. Voldemort want to rule by fear, he is not someone who wants his name and words abused. Someone who lies about this may not be killed, but Voldemort will not trust again.

...how could Snape know the task if he didn’t already know it? We don’t get any clue about Snape learning it in another way.He could figure it out logically, just like you did. It had to be something that Draco would have the opportunity to do, but which Voldy had never succeeded in doing and Draco was likely to die in the attempt.

Snape speaks pretty secretively and vaguely for three people who are entirely in on the plan. And while lying about being in Voldemort's confidence may be common among Death Eaters (and I wouldn't be surprised if it were), lying about it to wheedle secret information out of other Death Eaters is... so not going to be acceptable to him. If it got back to him that Snape did this, his head would SO be on the chopping block in a most Nickesque way.

So, was he bluffing? Partially bluffing? -- Voldemort may have told him some, but not all of it (he is Hogwarts' lead spy after all). Did he know about the plan? Why would a good, loyal member of the Order of the Phoenix promise his life to do something that is undoubtedly evil and undoubtedly serious? Unless he, like we, saw a loophole in the words "if it's necessary."

And if he was bluffing, at what point did he figure it out? I didn't figure just from that scene that it was going to be killing Dumbledore -- in fact, I was more worried for Harry.

Voldemort has a way about him that makes all of his followers want to be his most loyal, his most trusted. Narcissa says to Snape, "but he trusts you so." Bella counters, calling herself "his most trusted." In GoF, Barty Crouch Jr. called himself "his most faithful." Do you see a pattern? Voldemort evokes this feeling because he coerces and threatens. Perhaps everyone does think they are his most trusted. I could see that as a tactic Voldemort uses: he tells one Death Eater one thing, but tells him to guard it with his life. Then he tells another either the same thing or a very different thing and watches to see what happens. This is how he can tell who is loyal to him and who takes his word seriously.

And of COURSE the death eaters follow Voldemort's word: if they don't it might not lead to death, but there is a good chance that it will, and a very painful death. If it's not death, I can imagine a very painful lesson. Just look at what he does to his "faithful": Wormtail cuts off his own hand, and Voldemort lets him sit there in agony for a while.

I think that regardless if Snape knew about the plan before Spinner's End, he did know about it afterward: either from using Legilimency or from logical deduction. I find it interesting that Voldemort may have told him about the task Draco was given, yet Snape had Wormtail there to spy on him. And I do believe that with Wormtail there, Voldemort did hear about what happened in Spinner's End.

I think that regardless if Snape knew about the plan before Spinner's End, he did know about it afterward: either from using Legilimency or from logical deduction. I find it interesting that Voldemort may have told him about the task Draco was given, yet Snape had Wormtail there to spy on him. And I do believe that with Wormtail there, Voldemort did hear about what happened in Spinner's End.I feel certain Snape knew Wormtail would be 'reporting'. I think that's the main reason that before Snape says that he knows the task he specifically gets up, moves to the window (farther from the stairs, I assume) and speaks softly (Wormtail IS trying to listen through a door AND full bookcase). All Wormtail can report in this case is that Snape told the women not to discuss the subject and yet they kept talking because they assumed he knew. This endangers the Black sisters, but not him and after all, he HAS given them fair warning that Wormtail will probably eavesdrop.

I feel certain Snape knew Wormtail would be 'reporting'. I think that's the main reason that before Snape says that he knows the task he specifically gets up, moves to the window (farther from the stairs, I assume) and speaks softly (Wormtail IS trying to listen through a door AND full bookcase). All Wormtail can report in this case is that Snape told the women not to discuss the subject and yet they kept talking because they assumed he knew. This endangers the Black sisters, but not him and after all, he HAS given them fair warning that Wormtail will probably eavesdrop.

Yes and no. I don't think that him knowing about Draco's task would endanger him to the Dark Lord, but I do wonder what Voldemort would think about the Unbreakable Vow. Is he going to be happy that Dumbledore is finally "dead" or not? All of the other Death Eaters operate under Voldemort's orders that "the boy must do it." No one else but Draco is supposed to do it. The other four death eaters atop the Astronomy tower had plenty of time to kill Dumbledore too, but they didn't. They dared not go against Voldemort's wishes. Yes, yes, yes, you can come back and say that Voldemort said that but he didn't really expect Draco to succeed, thus another one of the Death Eaters eventually would have killed Dumbledore, but all evidence indicates they knew of Voldemort's orders and seemed pretty intent on following them. The same goes with the treatment of Harry. "No, he is for the Dark Lord." I do agree that the Black sisters would suffer wrath from Voldemort for speaking of a forbidden mission, but I also think that Snape himself might have to explain the Unbreakable Vow to Voldemort. Oh, why can't Jo ever give us a scene with Voldemort and Snape !!!

It is my belief that Snape has hovered between the sides until the end of HBP.

Dumbledore trusted Snape, we can't just ignore that. Snape didn't kill, or allow anyone else to kill Harry. Snape knows...just about everything about the Order, but hasn't told all of it to Voldemort.
We also can't ignore that Snape is a good Occlumens, and therefore neither Voldemort or Dumbledore could fully know everything, and had to take whatever Snape told them, and work with it.
However, Snape also returned to the Death Eaters, as little as they may have trusted him. He refers to Voldemort as The Dark Lord - What witch or wizard has ever done that within the books, and not turned out to be a Death Eater?

I think during HBP, his view of the balance between the two sides, was that the death eaters were gaining power, and would surely win. He comfirmed this, within his own mind, when he made the unbreakable vow - Dumbledore would be dead. What other chance do the good side have? I'm quite sure he wouldn't bank on Harry continuing where Dumbledore left off. After everything that happened, People still take it for granted that, as an unqualified wizard, Harry is somehow inferior, or unable to do the things he can do.
Anyway, all this leads to me believing that Snape has made his decision at last. After however many years, I believe he's chosen Voldemort. I mean, the whole of the Order now knows what he did, they're hardly going to trust him now, are they?

I mean, the whole of the Order now knows what he did, they're hardly going to trust him now, are they?
I really doubt that his number one concern would be getting back on the Order's good side to be honest. :shrug: Things between Dumbledore and Snape are so unknown by the Order anyways. The Order is actually very ignorant about a ton of things I think.

It is my belief that Snape has hovered between the sides until the end of HBP.
(...)
I think during HBP, his view of the balance between the two sides, was that the death eaters were gaining power, and would surely win.
This is an interesting thought. Snape called Dumbledore weaker in spinners end. This could just be the plain truth: Snape actually thought that Dumbledore’s diminishing powers were no longer a match for Voldemort. So he could have thought that it was no use going down with Dumbledore and changed sides. One could very well argue that he did this because now he is loyal to Voldemort but also that he did this because he wants to see Voldemort defeated. In that case he just thought that Dumbledore couldn’t orchestrate that anymore and Snape decides to wait for a better opportunity. In the conversation Hagrid overheard Snape refuses to do something for Dumbledore. Even without knowing what he refused to do it doesn’t speak of a lot of respect for the champion of the light side.
All Wormtail can report in this case is that Snape told the women not to discuss the subject and yet they kept talking because they assumed he knew.
Wormtail can report more then that: After Snape’s soft voice Narcissa confirms that Snape knew and Bellatrix asked:
You know about the plan? (…) You know?
Certainly, said Snape
So Wormtail can report that Snape claimed knowledge. Maybe Snape thought that by speaking in a soft voice would prevent Wormtail from hearing, but a few moments later he was less concerned or realised that this ploy had not been successful.

I really doubt that his number one concern would be getting back on the Order's good side to be honest. :shrug: Things between Dumbledore and Snape are so unknown by the Order anyways. The Order is actually very ignorant about a ton of things I think.

perhaps not. However, the Order never trusted him thoroughly to begin with, they just went along with it because they trusted Dumbledore's judgement. Now that Snape has killed Dumbledore, They are syre to know. For one thing, there were members of the order in the castle, so they know what happened. They all trust and believe Harry. If Snape wanted to be on the good side, he would care about what the Order think. He doesn't care, so I suppose we can assume that he is no longer anything to do with the good side.

So Wormtail can report that Snape claimed knowledge. Maybe Snape thought that by speaking in a soft voice would prevent Wormtail from hearing, but a few moments later he was less concerned or realised that this ploy had not been successful.Yes, but Snape can also claim that HE didn't bring it up - that the women just kept talking even after he said not to do so. It may not have worked because the of the ladies' reactions - but I feel certain it was what Snape was trying to do.

...If Snape wanted to be on the good side, he would care about what the Order think. He doesn't care, so I suppose we can assume that he is no longer anything to do with the good side.Except that there's an Order member that we've seen glimpses of but little else. Aberforth MAY have been told the 'plan' and continue to trust Snape's info to pass on. JKR has said in interview that Albus' family might be a productive line of inquiry, so I think Aberforth will play SOME role in bk7. Perhaps delivering the info from Snape - telling the Order it all comes from listening around the bar.

And we also have the possibility of a changed patronus. Albus has basically just saved Snape's life, so a switch to a phoenix patronus wouldn't be out of the question. And IF Harry isn't around the adults, I'm sure he'd listen to a familar looking patronus.

Snape doesn't NEED to be trusted by the Order to keep sending them info. JKR has left at least these two options as possible ways he could still send info.

He refers to Voldemort as The Dark Lord - What witch or wizard has ever done that within the books, and not turned out to be a Death Eater?

I mean, the whole of the Order now knows what he did, they're hardly going to trust him now, are they?

On calling him the The Dark Lord, he's got to because he's posing as a death eater. Additionally, Trelawney in her prophecies refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord and RAB, who clearly defected, addressed his letter to the Dark Lord.

On trusting Snape, I don't think they will except maybe at the end. JKR will keep us wondering about his true loyalties as long as she can. But I believe there's a proof Snape gave Dumbledore that proved he was good beyond a shadow of a doubt, and perhaps Harry or the Order will find out what that was.

I think it's important for the Order to trust him. He knew a lot of their secrets didn't he? If he just went off and killed Dumbledore, the Order's going to think he's helping Voldie, and therefore try to capture him as soon as possible. They don't want their secrets coming out.

We also can't ignore that Snape is a good Occlumens, and therefore neither Voldemort or Dumbledore could fully know everything, and had to take whatever Snape told them, and work with it.
True, but I think this proves Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore more than anything else. Not only because Snape spends vastly more time in close-quarters with Dumbledore than Voldemort, but also because Dumbledore doesn't rely as heavily or exclusively on legilimency to tell if someone's faithful. He understands people in a way that Voldemort never could, so he doesn't need to.

As for the Order -- I think it is important that they trust Snape, but not so important that he's useless without their trust. For one thing, if he's good he can still communicate with them anonymously somehow, or merely sabotage Voldemort's plans from within. He can divulge false information about the order, and protect information that Voldemort doesn't know about -- and Voldemort will certainly not doubt him now.

These posts lead me to ask ther question if Snape is good, will he come back to the good side? It has occurred to me over the last few days that my assumption that Snape is good doesn't explain what he is going to do now and how he can contribute to helping defeat Voldemort without the order.

A few posters believe that he can't go to Voldemrt, because Voldemort will be angry with him also. I am not so sure about this, I think that Voldemort will be glad that Dumbledore is dead, he may be annoyed that Draco didn't fullfill his "evil" destiny but surely he can overlook that by getting even more proof that Snape is on Voldemort's side and having gotten rid of Dumbledore into the bargain.

On another track, one thing I have always based my assumpion that Snape is good on, is the comments made by JKR in her October, 1999 interview

Marcus:There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

I have been taking the view that Snape had been bad in the past (up until coming over to Dumbledore's side) and that he was being/had been redeemed during the course of the books and we will see this clearly in Book 7. But what if he is actually bad (something I have never considered) and he will redeem himself finally in the 7th book?

Either way, by using the word redeem, it makes me think he will come back to the good side, maybe even sacrifice himself for the greater good.

On another track, one thing I have always based my assumpion that Snape is good on, is the comments made by JKR in her October, 1999 interview

I wonder if she actually was talking about Snape’s redemptive pattern there. The thing that makes me wonder about it is that she was asked if Snape is going to fall in love, then someone said that there’s a redemptive pattern to him, but in her answer she said “whoever asked that question”, so I thought it means that she was answering the original question of Snape falling in love.

I do think that Snape has redeemed himself by working for the Order, and Harry and the readers will see that in book 7, but I’m just not sure that JKR was talking about his redemption in that quote.
One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html

Oooh. I have only read it, not heard it and always assumed...in the case that Ms Rowling is talking about love and not redemption-- things could be even more interesting. I am going to have to listen to it.

You have me thinking Awiana!

Edited to say that sadly, I am unable to get it from Quick Quills, it gives me an internal server error. :(

Wow, there is a lot of great discussion going on in here :clap:

I think,though, that is it very wrong to assume that Snape could not be of any use to the Order if the Order thinks that he is bad. What better use could the Order have than a spy within the very inner circle of Voldemort, knowing his every move, giving him tidbits of information to make sure that Voldemort is preoccupied with other things while Harry searches for the Horcruxes? That's the best kind of spy, someone who you don't even realize is helping you that in the final battle, surprises you by using his inside information to help you defeat the bad guy (plus, based on his role, what information could he give the Order on Voldemort anyway? How important was his information? He had to pass on just enough information to the one side to please that side while still making it seem as though he wasn't giving too much information to the first side). I'm not saying that Snape even knows about the horcruxes, but now that it seems he made an "open" stance on where his loyalties lie (wow...that sounds a lot like other people that we have heard...Quirrel, Sirius, Peter...hmmm), he puts himself in the perfect position to manipulate the information Voldemort receives and deems important.

The thing about Snape being a fence-sitter, if this were true, why would he choose a side when the battle has not yet been won? He is a very intelligent man and that just strikes me as a bit out of character for him to make a rash decision without fully knowing the consequences of that decision. I truly believe there is more to this book and to Snape than the impressions that we receive from Harry.

That interview where Rowling talks about Snape+Love being important in Book 7 has set alarm bets off in my head. Someone is bound to have posted the obvious StarWars-esque plotline of Snape being Harry's dad....?

Until I read that interview quote I never gave it a realistic chance of coming to pass.

Now I'm not so sure :-)

IMHO: DB was begging Snape to kill him on that towertop for reasons well covered elsewhere. It takes real guts to do what needs to be done. Snape is not only good but GREAT. A reborn hero who maybe knows better than any how to defeat the dark because he has walked that path and knows how they think :)

That interview where Rowling talks about Snape+Love being important in Book 7 has set alarm bets off in my head. Someone is bound to have posted the obvious StarWars-esque plotline of Snape being Harry's dad....?The problem with that quote is that it's hard to tell if it's about Snape+Love or Snape+Redemption. The redemption question IS asked before she actually says anything about bk7 and her 'shock'.

Besides Snape can NOT be Harry's dad unless he defied Voldy 3 times before the prophecy was made.

That interview where Rowling talks about Snape+Love being important in Book 7 has set alarm bets off in my head. Someone is bound to have posted the obvious StarWars-esque plotline of Snape being Harry's dad....?

Until I read that interview quote I never gave it a realistic chance of coming to pass.

Now I'm not so sure :-)


Rowling has also said Harry does not have any other living relatives besides the Dursleys. I think that would definitely include a biological father.

:sad: Snape as Harry's father? What a horrible thought. The only reason I think it is implausible is because everyone keeps telling Harry he is almost a mirror image of James (except the eyes!). Why would that reference be thrown out there over and over again if it weren't true? What a red herring it would be, but I just don't buy it.

I think that deep down Snape will always be a good guy, but his fear of Voldemort has caused him to do wrong on more than one occassion- mainly in The Half-Blood Prince. I think he will try his best to redeem himself, but will find it very hard to be forgiven- especially by the order. Lets hope he gets another chance to prove his loyalty to the right side.

I wonder if she actually was talking about Snape’s redemptive pattern there. The thing that makes me wonder about it is that she was asked if Snape is going to fall in love, then someone said that there’s a redemptive pattern to him, but in her answer she said “whoever asked that question”, so I thought it means that she was answering the original question of Snape falling in love....She says 'whoever asked that question' because she doesn't know who asked ANY of the questions in that interview. ALL of the questions are all being asked by one person, who in this case said that these questions (Snape in Love and the Redemptive pattern) were from 'internet correspondents'. So, JKR has no idea WHO asked the question - either question.

She says 'whoever asked that question' because she doesn't know who asked ANY of the questions in that interview. ALL of the questions are all being asked by one person, who in this case said that these questions (Snape in Love and the Redemptive pattern) were from 'internet correspondents'. So, JKR has no idea WHO asked the question - either question.

So in that case, I may go back to thinking along my original lines since I can't listen to it. Even so, I am still not sure whether his redemption is occurring, has occurred or will occur in book seven. Maybe it is all of the above, he has redeemed himself before but must now redeem himself for killing Dumbledore. Interesting theme, redemption.

Why would she answer a question, let another be asked, then elaborate on the previous question (that she's already answered) without acknowleding the one she was just asked? :huh:

Also, I'm pretty sure she's definitively said that Harry was James' son. Besides, the Snape-as-Harry's-father theory expects us to believe that Lily, a muggle-born member of the Order of the Phoenix who'd defied the Voldemort 3 times (and was by all accounts a happily married woman), had a secret affair with a Death Eater. It expects us to believe that for some inexplicable reason, Harry is the spitting image of the husband of his mother who isn't really his father, while looking absolutely nothing like his actual father.

It further expects us to believe that Snape, reformed Death Eater, wanted nothing to do with his own son, and furthmore, despised him from the second he set eyes on him for no reason -- since the usual story that Snape hates Harry because Harry is James' son no longer makes sense -- or that Snape hates his own son because he's James' step-son, although he's never even met James and couldn't possibly have anything in common with him (being neither raised by nor biologically related to James). :huh:

My theory is that this theory thinks we've all been lobotomized.

She says 'whoever asked that question' because she doesn't know who asked ANY of the questions in that interview. ALL of the questions are all being asked by one person, who in this case said that these questions (Snape in Love and the Redemptive pattern) were from 'internet correspondents'. So, JKR has no idea WHO asked the question - either question.

The comment can definitely be read both ways, I’m just not convinced that she’s talking about Snape’s redemption there.

Either way, it’s once again one of her non-answers. All she says is that she’s stunned and we will find out why in book 7. That could mean anything: she’s stunned because Snape will be redeemed and someone noticed his redemptive pattern that early, or because he so totally is beyond all redemption that it truly shocks her that anyone could think he has any redeeming qualities, or that she’s shocked because we will find out that Snape is/has been in love or because it’s so impossible that someone like Snape could ever love anyone.

Personally, I believe that Snape has been in love and there is a redemptive pattern to him, no matter what JKR means by her answer. :)

Personally, I believe that Snape has been in love and there is a redemptive pattern to him, no matter what JKR means by her answer.

Me too! Which leads me to believe that there must be some good in him because it is Voldemort's inability to love that makes him evil, so even if Snape is a mean old killer, he still has some good in him.

It further expects us to believe that Snape, reformed Death Eater, wanted nothing to do with his own son, and furthmore, despised him from the second he set eyes on him for no reason -- since the usual story that Snape hates Harry because Harry is James' son no longer makes sense -- or that Snape hates his own son because he's James' step-son, although he's never even met James and couldn't possibly have anything in common with him (being neither raised by nor biologically related to James). :huh:

My theory is that this theory thinks we've all been lobotomized.

Blood: Excellently laid out points. I agree it's looking like a dead end theory.

I still think Snape is going to be proven unambiguously that he has always been a hero when the final book hits the shelves!

I still kinda think that snape will come back to the good side but i think that he wil lhave a really hard time to get everyone to trust him and i think when they finally trust him it will be to late!

I still kinda think that snape will come back to the good side but i think that he wil lhave a really hard time to get everyone to trust him and i think when they finally trust him it will be to late!

This is definitely what I hope will happen. Jo has shown over and over again several important themes, including redemption and second chances. She has also continuously shown that even if a person isn't exactly nice and sweet (coughSNAPEcough), that they can still be on the "good" side. I just think it would be contradicting the lessons she has tried to implant within her series if Snape turns out to be evil. But then again, maybe her lesson that she wants to teach is that even the greatest of people make mistakes (which she already HAS shown us by Dumbledore keeping secrets from Harry). My belief is just a gut feeling based on the whole of the series that for Snape to be truly evil will undermine every other book in the series (becuase I just want Snape to be good, alright!).

But I agree, getting the Order and Harry to trust him now is going to be an uphill battle.

I agree that Death Eater!Snape and Self-Serving!Snape just don't add up with the evidence, but Good!Snape doesn't make sense to me either. I love JKR's message that everyone who's mean isn't necessarily evil or that some bad guys will trick you and you won't suspect them. But Snape's nastiness is well-beyond that of a surly, bad-tempered good guy; he's really got a sadistic streak and it bugs me.

It doesn't make sense that someone would risk so much for the greater good and is self-controlled enough to fool one of the greatest legilimens of all time, can't even exert enough self-restraint to... I don't know, not let his hatred of Harry compromise the cause like it nearly has several times.

I don't know -- I just can't see how JKR's going to redeem him from the way he acts (although if anyone can, I'm sure she can), and I really don't like the idea that the way he's treated Harry is just going to be swept under the rug like it doesn't matter anymore than I like the idea that he's suddenly going to morph into a nice guy who hands out candy.

I mean, part of being good is how you treat other people.

I agree that Death Eater!Snape and Self-Serving!Snape just don't add up with the evidence, but Good!Snape doesn't make sense to me either. I love JKR's message that everyone who's mean isn't necessarily evil or that some bad guys will trick you and you won't suspect them. But Snape's nastiness is well-beyond that of a surly, bad-tempered good guy; he's really got a sadistic streak and it bugs me.

It doesn't make sense that someone would risk so much for the greater good and is self-controlled enough to fool one of the greatest legilimens of all time, can't even exert enough self-restraint to... I don't know, not let his hatred of Harry compromise the cause like it nearly has several times.

I don't know -- I just can't see how JKR's going to redeem him from the way he acts (although if anyone can, I'm sure she can), and I really don't like the idea that the way he's treated Harry is just going to be swept under the rug like it doesn't matter anymore than I like the idea that he's suddenly going to morph into a nice guy who hands out candy.

I mean, part of being good is how you treat other people.

:clap: You're a smart cookie! I don't think Snape's going to end up this saint who saves Harry or what ever other people are saying. Maybe he'll end up on the good side, but I can never see him accepting Harry or being nice to him.

I don't know -- I just can't see how JKR's going to redeem him from the way he acts (although if anyone can, I'm sure she can), and I really don't like the idea that the way he's treated Harry is just going to be swept under the rug like it doesn't matter anymore than I like the idea that he's suddenly going to morph into a nice guy who hands out candy.

I mean, part of being good is how you treat other people.
:clap: You're a smart cookie! I don't think Snape's going to end up this saint who saves Harry or what ever other people are saying. Maybe he'll end up on the good side, but I can never see him accepting Harry or being nice to him.
I too have always thought that Snape is sadistic, but it's really interesting if you get another perspective on it. I've been spending a lot of time on the Dev Snape thread (and I wouldn't recommend going over there unless you have an open mind) and they offer a lot of really good insights into Snape. I've learned more about him than I ever realized we knew. Firstly, he does have a somewhat....unpleasant personality. But he has also given Harry more advice than we have ever given him credit for. The problem is the way we see this advice: through Harry's eyes, and let's be honest, Harry has never liked Snape any more than Snape appears to like him. But even with his hatred of Harry, Snape has still tried to teach Harry on several instances and Harry has rejected every form of help Snape has ever given him.

Now don't get me wrong, Snape sometimes is cruel and I do not condone many of his actions that I personally feel are inexcusable. But I also think there is a different side of him that is very interesting to see. We see these books through Harry's eyes and we must constantly remember that, even when dealing with Snape. By looking at Snape through a different lens, I think it is possible to see that maybe we do have enough clues to figure out "where his loyalties lie." It's just my opinion, of course (because I sure do read many things in the books and I want to hit Snape over the head), but there are two sides, and often three and four, to everything.

And yes, maybe I do have a weak spot and I want everyone to turn out good, and as hard as it is to believe that he and Harry could be nice to eachother, I do think that if Snape is good, that they need to learn about each other and realize they both underestimate the other. Maybe, just maybe, they can get past some of the misbeliefs and prejudices they have of/against the other.

It doesn't make sense that someone would risk so much for the greater good and is self-controlled enough to fool one of the greatest legilimens of all time, can't even exert enough self-restraint to... I don't know, not let his hatred of Harry compromise the cause like it nearly has several times.

Do you have any examples of Snape letting his hatred of Harry compromise the cause? I’m not trying to be argumentative here, I was just wondering what you are referring to. All that comes to my mind right now are things like the end of OotP, where he didn’t let his feelings towards Harry compromise anything: he loathes the kid but still he alerted the Order and saved Harry’s life.

The only thing I can think of right now that I think could have compromised the cause is Snape’s decision to stop the Occlumency lessons. But I have a hard time seeing that as Snape compromising the cause, because Harry wasn’t practising Occlumency anyway. He insisted on not practising it, he wanted the dreams to continue, and so he didn’t learn it. I would have been extremely angry at Snape if Harry had tried to learn Occlumency, and he just stopped the lessons, but as it is, ending the lessons didn’t do any harm because Harry wasn’t going to learn it anyway.

And actually, I’m not even quite sure what to make of the idea that Good!Snape doesn’t make sense because he can’t exert enough self-restraint and his hatred of Harry has nearly compromised the cause. We have seen that Harry hates Snape passionately, he actually wishes Snape would die. (Well, I’m sure he doesn’t really wish that, but we have read how he fantasises about using the Cruciatus curse on Snape and how he wishes that Snape will die because of the DADA curse.) And at the end of OotP he let his hatred of Snape cloud his judgement when he forgot that Snape was a member of the Order and instead decided to use Umbridge’s fireplace to contact Sirius. Things like that mean that Harry is far from infallible and perfect, but they certainly don’t mean that Harry couldn’t be on the good side.

Similarly, I’m not quite sure why Snape’s hatred of Harry would mean that he can’t be good. I mean good in the sense that he’s on the Order’s side, not in the sense that he’s a good person. Obviously I don’t approve of Snape’s behaviour all the time, of course he shouldn’t treat Harry the way he does. But I just don’t think it means that he can’t be on the good side.

I do think that if Snape is good, that they need to learn about each other and realize they both underestimate the other. Maybe, just maybe, they can get past some of the misbeliefs and prejudices they have of/against the other.
I hope that will happen in book 7, and I’m actually pretty convinced that it will happen, although I admit that I may be optimistic to the point of foolishness. :)

But it just seems to me that their mutual hatred is irrational and way over-the-top. I understand that they do have reasons to dislike each other, and they will never be best friends, but it seems that their mutual hatred is partly due to misunderstandings and prejudices. I will be very surprised if JKR doesn’t intend to change that in book 7. It just seems so weird that she would let these major characters keep their stupid prejudices about each other and never resolve the situation. I’m not saying that they need to become friends, but just that they should overcome their prejudices and accept each other, and have at least some respect for each other.

The only thing I can think of right now that I think could have compromised the cause is Snape’s decision to stop the Occlumency lessons. But I have a hard time seeing that as Snape compromising the cause, because Harry wasn’t practising Occlumency anyway.
If you believe that Snape has participated in no small degree in the animosity between Harry and Snape you might consider that without that animosity their would have been a normal atmosphere during the lessons and Snape might have been able to motivate Harry to learn this. And in that case the lessons in itself are a fine example of Snape’s hatred compromise the cause. There is the difference between Snape and Lupin. Harry facing the boggart dementor was no fun. It did hurt him. So Lupin takes care of Harry. He gives him chocolate, just because the lessons made Harry a little ill. So did the legimilency experience. Why not sent him to the hospital or give a potion against the hurting? You know: just to show you’re a teacher who cares about the physical well being of a student?
I would have been extremely angry at Snape if Harry had tried to learn Occlumency, and he just stopped the lessons, but as it is, ending the lessons didn’t do any harm because Harry wasn’t going to learn it anyway.
This is from the last lesson described before the pensieve episode:
“Well, Potter, … that was certainly an improvement…”The last lesson we see before SWM we see Harry delivering his best occlumency performance. A real improvement according to Snape. So why do people state that Harry wouldn’t have learned anyway, if he shows such an improvement just before the lessons were terminated?

If you believe that Snape has participated in no small degree in the animosity between Harry and Snape you might consider that without that animosity their would have been a normal atmosphere during the lessons and Snape might have been able to motivate Harry to learn this. And in that case the lessons in itself are a fine example of Snape’s hatred compromise the cause.
But we haven’t seen any indication that Snape is particularly gifted in Divination. Maybe he didn’t foresee that he would have to give Occlumency lessons to the kid he loathes, and therefore should have tried to form a better relationship with him. Of course, like I said in my previous post, he shouldn’t treat Harry the way he does, but I just don’t see the Occlumency lessons being an example of him compromising the cause. No, he wasn’t particularly encouraging and patient during the lessons, but he did try to teach Harry, no matter how he feels about the kid. It was Harry who decided not to practise it, and it was Harry who took it upon him to dive into the Pensieve.

The last lesson we see before SWM we see Harry delivering his best occlumency performance. A real improvement according to Snape. So why do people state that Harry wouldn’t have learned anyway, if he shows such an improvement just before the lessons were terminated?
Harry didn’t practise it, he wanted the dreams to continue:
“You are trying to block your mind, aren’t you?” said Hermione, looking beadily at Harry. “You are keeping going with your Occlumency?” “Of course I am” said Harry, trying to sound as though this question was insulting, but not quite meeting her eye. The truth was he was so intensely curious about what was hidden in that room full of dusty orbs, that he was quite keen for the dreams to continue.” (OotP p. 750-751 UK paperback)
“With a surge of guilt he realised that he had not practised Occlumency once since their last lesson” (OotP p. 700)
“I didn’t practise, I didn’t bother, I could’ve stopped myself having those dreams. Hermione kept telling me to do it, if I had he’d never have been able to show me where to go, and – Sirius wouldn’t- Sirius wouldn’t-” (OotP p. 911)

The comment about realising with a surge of guilt that he had not practised it comes right before their last lesson, and after Dumbledore had left the school and specifically told him how important it is that he does everything Snape says and practices it.

And there’s this quote from JKR:
I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories.
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm

It seems that JKR thinks that the reason why Harry isn’t very gifted in Occlumency is that he’s too emotionally honest, and that’s hardly Snape’s fault.

I’m not trying to argue that Harry not learning Occlumency was only his own fault, I do believe that he probably would have done better with a different teacher. And I certainly am not trying to argue that the way Snape treats Harry is fine, or that Harry hates Snape for no reason at all. But what I am saying is that I don’t think Snape has let his hatred of Harry compromise the cause. I don’t approve of Snape’s treatment of Harry, but I do think that when the chips are down he does the right thing: he tries to teach Harry Occlumency for several months, he alerts the Order and saves Harry’s life.

The main reason it doesn't bother me that Snape's relationship with Harry is bad is that it doesn't seem to bother Dumbledore too much. Dumbledore knows the occlumency lessons didn't work out, and he doesn't suspect Snape for a second. I imagine he understands that Snape doesn't think he's doing anything unjustified.

My point is not that Snape's hatred of Harry has compromised the cause, but rather that it very well could have on several occasions. As Awiana pointed out, Snape isn't gifted in Divination. He didn't know how things would work out, so he couldn't have known for sure whether the Occlumency lessons wouldn't help at all. Clearly, Harry was improving.

What he did know was that Voldemort was trying to lure Harry into the Hall of Prophecies. He knew how important Harry is -- has known since before he met Harry -- to the cause of stopping Voldemort. He knew, at least to some extent, how vital it was that Voldemort not get that prophecy (all the Order seemed to know) or such direct access to Harry as the MoM battle afforded. Furthermore, he knew Harry.

He's taught him for the last 5 years, been just as much a witness to his triumphs as anyone else, and he's been traipsing around Harry's mind several times a week for the last two months. He should have considered very seriously the possibility that Harry would manage to get away from Umbridge and head for the Ministry to rescue Sirius (or even consider it inevitable). He should have been watching for this a lot more closely than he was considering how late the Order got there. He should have sent a few order members to the Ministry (even just Tonks, Kingsley, or Mr. Weasley to pretend they were working late) to head off Harry in case he did go there. Harry could've been stopped at the entrance by a member Voldemort would never guess was sent by Snape and said member could say, "What, no, Sirius is at Headquarters, I talked to him a few minutes ago, Harry -- it must be a trap, let's get out of here."

Even more than the Occlumency Lessons, I think Snape dropped the ball in regards to the MoM battle. He was the only member of the Order at the School, and while I don't believe any of the offered explanations for why a loyal Death Eater would have sent the Order there at all, I think it's entirely his fault that they were sent there so late. Even making allowances for travel (assuming that didn't apparate, etc...) and every other possible variable, the fact is that Snape should've found out or alerted them sooner.

Also, in GoF, when Harry had found Mr. Crouch in the forest and sets out to tell Dumbledore, Snape intentionally holds him up after Harry's already explained what's going on, page 558 -- "...Snape was thoroughly enjoying himself, denying Harry the thing he wanted when he was so panicky." Now, we know from ImposterMoody that this didn't make much of a difference -- that he was already watching at this time and had probably killed Crouch Sr. by now, but the fact is that Snape didn't know that, and that was my point.

ouf! after reading many posts on this matter, and after having expressed many "yes, but..." opinions, I still can't bet my right hand on which side Snape is. Even if he is on "his" side, I can't grasp what his personal truth is; i.e. apparently, if he is on "his" side, a goal might be his actual survival, but does he care how the world he lives in will look? I mean, with or without the death eaters, with or without a job that pays for services, or an income coming in from "protection" or bullying...

I have the feeling that the majority out there is on the "Snape-is-good-or-at-least-not-evil" side, but I wonder if the successful acting of Rickman contributed to our strong preference for Snape's survival :)

ouf! after reading many posts on this matter, and after having expressed many "yes, but..." opinions, I still can't bet my right hand on which side Snape is. Even if he is on "his" side, I can't grasp what his personal truth is; i.e. apparently, if he is on "his" side, a goal might be his actual survival, but does he care how the world he lives in will look? I mean, with or without the death eaters, with or without a job that pays for services, or an income coming in from "protection" or bullying... Because of Snape's past, in which he was a loner, he is constantly looking to be a part of something. Right now he is in the cozy place of being a part of two different groups. Seeing as how his position within each group is such that each group believes he is serving them, it has given Snape a feeling of great worth. I'm not sure that survival is even on his agenda at this point. Maybe more of having lived a life that wizards, whatever side they may be on, can look up to him and say that he was worthy. He has a basic need of life to be met. The need to feel accepted.

I have the feeling that the majority out there is on the "Snape-is-good-or-at-least-not-evil" side, but I wonder if the successful acting of Rickman contributed to our strong preference for Snape's survival :):lol: probably.

If it got back to him that Snape did this, his head would SO be on the chopping block in a most Nickesque way.
:rotfl: Somehow I think that Voldemort would be more successful. No "nearly headless" for Snape.



I really doubt that his number one concern would be getting back on the Order's good side to be honest. :shrug:
I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think that Snape cares what the Order members think about him personally, but, if Snape is in fact good, he would care about whether or not they would listen to him. It would be important to Snape that he be able to aid in the downfall of Voldemort, and the Order, including Harry, is one way to do so.



Edited to say that sadly, I am unable to get it from Quick Quills, it gives me an internal server error. :(
I have that same problem. It's soo frustrating!



The thing about Snape being a fence-sitter, if this were true, why would he choose a side when the battle has not yet been won? He is a very intelligent man and that just strikes me as a bit out of character for him to make a rash decision without fully knowing the consequences of that decision.
:tu: I agree. In fact, why would he even join the fight at all?

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think that Snape cares what the Order members think about him personally, but, if Snape is in fact good, he would care about whether or not they would listen to him. It would be important to Snape that he be able to aid in the downfall of Voldemort, and the Order, including Harry, is one way to do so.
I see what you mean but given the lack of communication Snape had with the Order to begin with I doubt its his number one priority at the moment. There could be one order member who knows of the plan though...Dumbledore's brother perhaps? :eyebrows:

I mean, part of being good is how you treat other people.
Yes, this is definitely true. The intent behind an act of cruelty also counts. I don't think that all of Snape's words/actions that have been mean, are intended to be so. Some of his actions/words have happened because he lost his temper. Something which, to me, is forgiveable because I don't know a single person who hasn't said or done something out of anger that was hurtful to someone else.

The only situations I can think of where Snape appears to be nothing but malicious are his comment to Hermione about her teeth and his comment to Tonks about her patronus. Hardly a pattern of behavior. There may be others, but I can't recall any of them.

In many instances, I think that Snape is actually trying to motivate others. Harry and Neville are good examples of this. Snape sees these two people as careless and lazy, and insulting their parents and threatening their pets, are the only ways he knows how to deal with them. I don't think that he intends to be cruel, or that he sees his actions/words as cruel. Snape views it as a strict teacher trying to get their students to pay attention and apply themselves.

I also have to say that the way Snape treats Harry doesn't really bother me that much because it doesn't really seem to bother Harry. Harry doesn't like it, and he gets angry, but it doesn't upset or hurt him that much. In fact, as soon as he's out of Snape's presence, he pretty much forgets about it. Snape is more of a nuisance to Harry than anything else. Even if Snape is intending to be malicious and hurtful, he's failing miserably. A forty year old Harry will not be recalling his awful Potions Masters to a psychologist, so I don't get too worked up about it.



No, he wasn’t particularly encouraging and patient during the lessons, but he did try to teach Harry, no matter how he feels about the kid. It was Harry who decided not to practise it, and it was Harry who took it upon him to dive into the Pensieve.
:clap: Snape is not an encouraging or patient person. Even if there had been no animosity between the two, things would not have gone well. Harry still would have let his curiosity get the better of him. He still would have wanted to know what his dreams were about and he still would have gone pensieve diving. Snape did his best with the situation as it was.



I see what you mean but given the lack of communication Snape had with the Order to begin with I doubt its his number one priority at the moment. There could be one order member who knows of the plan though...Dumbledore's brother perhaps? :eyebrows:
Well, I agree that his immediate concerns aren't how he's going to communicate with the other side, but it will become important in the near future. If there was a plan between Dumbledore and Snape, then I also agree that there is someone out there who knows about it and can clear Snape. If there wasn't a plan, and Snape was just trying to make the best of the situation at hand, then I think it will be very important to him that he reconnects with the leader of the Order.

It bothers me when he crosses lines -- obviously, he really has hurt Hermione when he snaps at her in class or -- again, the teeth incident is a big one with me. He's been teaching for 13 years, he should know better than to say something like that to a 14 year old girl. Furthermore, it was entirely unprovoked and unjustified, he could just as easily and unsuspiciously have sent her off to the hospital dismissively.

As for motivating students -- I can't see in his head, so I can't disagree -- but if he was trying to motivate Neville by threatening Trevor, why did he immediately blame Hermione when it worked? Generally when you do something to motivate someone, you expect it to work, or at least, to possibly work. Obviously, he expected Trevor to die.

In any case, whatever his motives are, he should know better. He's been teaching for over a decade -- he is perfectly capable of coming up with better ways of dealing with all the problems presented. Harry may not let it get to him, but it definitely gets to some students -- geez, Neville's parents were tortured into insanity by a pack of Death Eaters, and what is he afraid of? Voldemort? His followers? The Dementors he's recently seen, or some creature he's only heard of? No, he's afraid of his mean teacher and Hermione is brought to tears repeatedly by him, completely unprovoked.

So, yeah, whatever his motive is for being such a jerk, I really don't care -- he's been dealing with children long enough to know what hurts them and it really is just luck that Harry is strong enough to dismiss it.

...As for motivating students -- I can't see in his head, so I can't disagree -- but if he was trying to motivate Neville by threatening Trevor, why did he immediately blame Hermione when it worked? Generally when you do something to motivate someone, you expect it to work, or at least, to possibly work. ...How about he blamed Hermione because it then wasn't Neville's WORK it was now part Hermione's? How is he supposed to grade Neville?

And for the assumption that Snape expected Neville to fail - then why did he have the antidote for the CORRECTly brewed formula in his pocket? He didn't expect failure - he expected a proper shrinking potion.

Even more than the Occlumency Lessons, I think Snape dropped the ball in regards to the MoM battle. He was the only member of the Order at the School, and while I don't believe any of the offered explanations for why a loyal Death Eater would have sent the Order there at all, I think it's entirely his fault that they were sent there so late. Even making allowances for travel (assuming that didn't apparate, etc...) and every other possible variable, the fact is that Snape should've found out or alerted them sooner.

This is certainly possible, but speculative. I can see other reasons for the apparent delay. Snape leaves Umbridge's office at about 7-ish (since just after Harry observes the evening meal is being served...my online source tells me the British would typically eat this meal anytime between 6:30 and 8 pm). He communicates in some unknown manner, with uncertain time delay, with 12 Grimmauld Place to confirm the presence of Sirius. I would imagine that the reason for the communication would have been mentioned at this time as well, so the decision not to go to the Ministry immediately is not necessarily Snape's alone, as you seem to be suggesting.

If he has suspicions about Harry's 'saving people thing', the next step would be to find Harry. This would probably be best done by checking Umbridge's office, as it is the last place he saw Harry. At this point it would contain either noone, or inquisitorial squad members in various states of hexedness. In either case, a delay would ensue. Talking to them is the best way Snape has of narrowing down Harry's probable whereabouts. If they are there and still suffering from the effects of various hexes, he has to take the time to fix that. Otherwise, he has to find someone from that group. (If I were he I would look for Draco, as most likely to give an intelligent account of the evening's happenings.)

This accomplished, what does he know? Umbridge made an apparently serious threat to Crucio Harry, after which Harry and Hermione went to the Forest sans wands, accompanied by Umbridge. Some time later, the inquisitorial squad members were jumped by Harry's friends, who most likely followed Harry into the Forest.

Now something we don't know. This might be the point to contact the Order and insist action be taken, I agree. Except, does the unknown communication method of unknown delay time require Snape to sit around twiddling his thumbs waiting, or not? Because if it does, Snape may consider getting out to the Forest a better idea than waiting and sending another warning. Umbridge has apparently lost it to a dangerous degree, and if Harry gets away from her, he and Hermione have no wands and are thus at greater risk from the dangers of the Forest. So perhaps he heads for the Forest, next. How late is it now? I would guess approaching sunset. I have allowed 2-3 hours for communicating with Sirius and figuring out where Harry is and in what circumstances.

Once in the forest, how long does it take to figure out what has happened? Well, Harry and Hermione left at 7, and the others find them just before sunset. 2-3 hours. I am willing to give Snape 2 hours as well. While he is a far more experienced and skilled wizard, he is also forced to do the searching in the dark and alone. So by the time Snape figures out Harry met up with his friends and flew away on thestrals, it is midnight. Four hours before Harry sees the first light of dawn from Dumbledore's office. This seems consistent with the events we see at the Ministry.

Also, in GoF, when Harry had found Mr. Crouch in the forest and sets out to tell Dumbledore, Snape intentionally holds him up after Harry's already explained what's going on, page 558 -- "...Snape was thoroughly enjoying himself, denying Harry the thing he wanted when he was so panicky." Now, we know from ImposterMoody that this didn't make much of a difference -- that he was already watching at this time and had probably killed Crouch Sr. by now, but the fact is that Snape didn't know that, and that was my point.
What actually happens is that Harry tries the hidden office door and shouts at it, then begins to run away to the staffroom. Snape emerges from the office immediately thereafter and calls him BACK, by yelling his name. Thus the likely net effect of Snape's intervention was to speed things up. But of course he did it nastily.

How about he blamed Hermione because it then wasn't Neville's WORK it was now part Hermione's? How is he supposed to grade Neville?

And for the assumption that Snape expected Neville to fail - then why did he have the antidote for the CORRECTly brewed formula in his pocket? He didn't expect failure - he expected a proper shrinking potion.
Snape would've had the antidote on him from the start of class -- that's what they were covering that day, and he usually tests them. So he expected (or considered the possibility of getting) a proper shrinking solution from someone.

And my point was not that he was upset Hermione had helped but rather that he used the fact that the potion was correct as proof that Hermione helped, meaning he didn't expect Neville could right it on his own at all.

zgirnius: The communication method isn't unknown, it's sending patronuses, JKR confirmed that's what it was and it takes a few seconds. Furthermore, it was only about 5ish when Harry was telling Hermione and Ron about his vision shortly before going to Umbridge's office, so it was probably closer to 6 than 7.

In any case, I still think Snape should've kept better tabs on the situation. Given that it was approaching dawn (so around 4:40-50 for England that time of year) by the time Harry'd returned to school, and given that the Members were already at headquarters when he contacted them, and that they set out at once, I don't think Snape could've alerted the Order any earlier than 2 in the morning (at the very earliest). So why did it take that long for him to realize where they'd gone?

As for the kids being wandless with Umbridge in the forest -- Snape could've sent a message to the order in case Harry's gone to the ministry (which takes a second), and then set out to search the forest in case he was still there, which coincidentally is what Dumbledore said he did do -- so looking in the forest didn't cause a delay. Furthermore, Dumbledore said that Snape only grew worried only when they failed to return from the forest -- so he must not have rushed out to save them from Umbridge the second he found out they were in there.

And my point was not that he was upset Hermione had helped but rather that he used the fact that the potion was correct as proof that Hermione helped, meaning he didn't expect Neville could right it on his own at all.
He did not explain how he reached the conclusion Hermione helped. However, Harry and Ron knew she had been helping, so I see no reason to suppose Snape did not.
zgirnius: The communication method isn't unknown, it's sending patronuses, JKR confirmed that's what it was and it takes a few seconds. Furthermore, it was only about 5ish when Harry was telling Hermione and Ron about his vision shortly before going to Umbridge's office, so it was probably closer to 6 than 7.

Cool. :cool: What interview was that in? I missed that.

...My point is not that Snape's hatred of Harry has compromised the cause, but rather that it very well could have on several occasions. As Awiana pointed out, Snape isn't gifted in Divination. He didn't know how things would work out, so he couldn't have known for sure whether the Occlumency lessons wouldn't help at all. Clearly, Harry was improving. Harry was NOT clearly improving. He has just shown the best so far, but it is a miniscule improvement for what appears to have been 20 to 24 lessons. This MAY be the night he was able to put up a 'shield' spell, but a shield spell would be useless against the dreams.

And this last lesson was also the lesson where Snape saw proof that Harry was having Voldy dreams. Snape saw Rookwood from Harry that night. It's proof that Harry can look through Voldy's eyes and yet the other 'dream' he sees is the door opening to the Dept of Mysteries and Harry's excited by it. Occlumency isn't going to work - it's too late and Harry is OBVIOUS in his WANT to SEE.

I admit some would say therefore that Snape should shake Harry by the shoulders and say 'Listen' this is exactly WHY you're supposed to block this stuff. But I can't imagine ANYTHING NEW he could say at that point to convince Harry to practice. Harry has already been told they were afraid Voldy might try to lure him - way back in the first lesson (I think, altho' it might have been a later one)

At this point all Snape would accomplish would be blowing his cover.

Having Voldy see him plead with the boy to learn - or watch him tell Harry that he would try to trick him with a false vision - would be sure to get Snape killed and I don't think it fair to assume that Snape should do that just because the kid won't practise.

It's my belief that this is when Snape begins to work on Plan B - suggesting to Voldy that HIS secrets weren't safe from Harry - which leads directly to Voldy later occluding Harry. With his memory of Harry seeing Rookwood through Voldy's eyes, Snape has a chance to convince Voldy. Considering the upcoming Easter break, I'm sure he began doing so.

Meanwhile, there isn't any reason to believe that Harry should be able to get to the Dept. of Mysteries. Every floo in the building is monitored and Harry's broom is locked up. Besides, Harry doesn't even know the way to London - his only way there should be a stolen school broom following the train tracks.

The only thing you can say Snape was wrong about was that he didn't think about the thestrals. But then - we have no idea whether Snape knew Hagrid was teaching about them or especially that Hagrid would mention they would take you anywhere you want to go.

...Even more than the Occlumency Lessons, I think Snape dropped the ball in regards to the MoM battle. He was the only member of the Order at the School, and while I don't believe any of the offered explanations for why a loyal Death Eater would have sent the Order there at all, I think it's entirely his fault that they were sent there so late. Even making allowances for travel (assuming that didn't apparate, etc...) and every other possible variable, the fact is that Snape should've found out or alerted them sooner.And part of the problem is that we still don't have canon as to how fast a patronus message moves. IF we go by Tonks' in bk6 then they're not exactly 'speedy' at a distance. I'd say they're faster than the actual animal would be running to London from Scotland, but NOWHERE near as fast as the floo or apparating.

In fact, from the timing I'd say that thestrals are faster since they move at over 150 mph and Tonks' patronus doesn't seem to go much faster than twice the speed that she and Harry were walking - therein lies the 'time' problem. We just don't know.

I'll just say that Albus didn't seem to think Snape was slow to contact the Order and I think he's a better judge

...Also, in GoF, when Harry had found Mr. Crouch in the forest and sets out to tell Dumbledore, Snape intentionally holds him up after Harry's already explained what's going on, page 558 -- "...Snape was thoroughly enjoying himself, denying Harry the thing he wanted when he was so panicky." Now, we know from ImposterMoody that this didn't make much of a difference -- that he was already watching at this time and had probably killed Crouch Sr. by now, but the fact is that Snape didn't know that, and that was my point.And one could also say that Snape was keeping Harry right there outside Albus office where perhaps he was supposed to be keeping him. The thing is since Harry doesn't know exactly what was going on in Albus' office, it seems like Albus was just sitting up there twiddling his thumbs with nothing to do.

Snape had just left Albus' office, later we see evidence that the pensieve is out, The most likely reason was because Snape had just been in there giving Albus 'evidence' that his mark was returning. The most probable reason Snape was heading off Harry at the moment was because Albus was finishing up with the pensieve. Considering that THESE memories were about Voldy and whether he was returning AND that Snape was once a Death Eater, it makes total sense for him to give the Headmaster time to finish up and put things away safely.

Albus comes out within minutes - probably less than 3-5 minutes. And it would seem Snape was expecting him to do so.

Lastly, when you breakdown what Harry says - we have 'out-of-breath and so paniced he's barely making sense Harry, when he first speaks to Snape. By the time Albus comes out Harry is finally making sense and has caught his breath - he's able to tell Albus exactly what's wrong.

Notice Harry never tried to tell Snape that someone might die (or it seems that I remember it that way - I'll admit I'm wrong if someone brings in a quote - it's been a few weeks since we discussed this on Dev of Sev and I don't have my book to double check).

Just 'let me pass' - 'I have to see the Headmaster' - no mention of why it was important. I once suggested that Snape was playing 'Rabid Gargoyle Receptionist' to Harry. He's running interference while the boss requested to not be disturbed.

But Snape doesn't let Harry turn around and leave either. He's keeping him at the base of the steps waiting for Albus, who comes out in just a moment.

...Even more than the Occlumency Lessons, I think Snape dropped the ball in regards to the MoM battle. He was the only member of the Order at the School, and while I don't believe any of the offered explanations for why a loyal Death Eater would have sent the Order there at all, I think it's entirely his fault that they were sent there so late. Even making allowances for travel (assuming that didn't apparate, etc...) and every other possible variable, the fact is that Snape should've found out or alerted them sooner.
:clap: Ahhhhh, finally. Blood_River where have you been for the past three years of my time? :lol:

Nicely spotted....the number of times I've mentioned......:D

And part of the problem is that we still don't have canon as to how fast a patronus message moves. IF we go by Tonks' in bk6 then they're not exactly 'speedy' at a distance. I'd say they're faster than the actual animal would be running to London from Scotland, but NOWHERE near as fast as the floo or apparating.

But this is the thing, Dumbledore would not make it THE communication method for the Order if it's slow (meaning, it takes hours for it to travel from Snape to Grimmauld Place, then hours back again). No matter how you look at that it is just unfathomable. JKR had any oppurtinity to establish the way of communicating, and she had to think of something this slow?

I'll just say that Albus didn't seem to think Snape was slow to contact the Order and I think he's a better judge

Well, being from Harry's POV has its limitations. For all we know Albus could have been thinking a lot of things. Not that it matters anymore since he's dead (and Snape is evil :D ).

Okay, to clear up the confusion about the scene with Snape and Harry in GoF, I'll just type it out:

The password have evidently, changed, however, for the stone gargorle did not spring to life and jump aside, but stood frozen, glaring at Harry maevolently...Perhpas Dumbledore was in the staffroom? He started running as fast as he could toward the staircase--
"POTTER!"
Harry skidded to a half and looked around. Snape had just emerged from the hidden staircase behind the stone gargoyle...
"What are you doing here, Potter?"
"I need to see Professor Dumbledore!" said Harry, running back up the corridor and skidding to a standstill in front of Snape instead. "It's Mr. Crouch...he's just turned up...he's in the forest...he's asking--"
"What is this rubbish?" said Snape, his black eyes glittering. "What are you talking about?"
"Mr Crouch!" Harry shouted. "From the Ministry! He's ill or something--he's in the forest, he wants to see Dumbledore! Just give me the password to--"
"The headmaster is busy, Potter," said Snape, his thin mouth curling into an unpleasant smile.
"I've got to tell Dumbledore!" Harry yelled.
"Didn't you hear me Potter?"
Harry could tell Snape was thoroughly enjoying himself, denying Harry the thing he wanted when he was so panicky.
"Look," said Harry angrily, "Crouch isn't right--he's--he's out of his mind--he says he wants to warn--"
The stone wall behind SNape slid open. Dubledore was standing there, wearing long green robes and a mildly curious expression.

Now, let's note a few things that the text tells us: firstly, Harry is shouting, yelling and angry. Snape, when he doesn't understand Harry, asks about all this "rubbish." From Snape's standpoint, Harry doesn't seem to be making much sense. Notice though that Snape's eyes are glittering. There has been a nice discussion over on Dev Snape thread about glittering eyes and what they imply about Snape's character--hwyla, you can explain this better than me, I am sure (Jo uses this technique in certain situations to explain emotions about Snape). Needless to say, he may not be polite about how he tries to gather information from Harry, but he gets information out of Harry and makes sure Harry stays put until Dumbledore arrives.

I really like your points Hwyla. Harry was running away from Dumbledore, thus ensuring that he wouldn't find Dumbledore. When Snape arrives, Snape brings Harry back and ensures that Harry will meet up with Dumbledore. And if Snape had just been discussing something with Dumbledore, it makes sense that Dumbledore might need to make certain "arrangements" when the discussion is over. But Dumbledore seems to realize that something was going on, because he arrives with a curious expression on his face.

Doesn't JKR say she's not very good with numbers? Could that extend to time? Maybe we're deciphering something she wasn't rock-solid on in the first place.

Someone mentioned that the order members were at the HQ when Snape gave them the message. Since I don't remember either way, could someone verify that for my lazy self?
If it didn't occur to snape that Harry & co might use thestrils, he may assume they'd high-tail it to Hogsmeade to find transport. Assuming there are order members still there, he could've felt assured that their primary exit was well protected.

Now, reaching a bit here, but Snape's partonus comment to Tonks could be one of his "teaching moments" as in "get it together woman, you need to be at your best for the order's sake." or "don't let your silly crush keep you from performing your job." Though ultimately, most likely it was a jab at Lupin- or Sirius, if Snape thought he was the source of Tonk's grief.

I have a different take on the MoM battle. I am rereading the OotP right now, and while on jury duty today (yuk!), I read this scene. What first came to my mind was that if Dumbledore and McGonagall were not present at the school, Snape could have easily overlooked the "cryptic" message Harry gave him. No one would have been the wiser, and if Harry said something, Snape doesn't necessarily know Sirius' nickname is Padfoot. He could have allowed Harry to be lured to the MoM without any hope of aid, knowing that Voldemort would have been able to acheive his goal that night, and Snape wouldn't have had to hide his true allegiance any longer.

That was my first instinct, without going back and analyzing.

Doesn't JKR say she's not very good with numbers? Could that extend to time? Maybe we're deciphering something she wasn't rock-solid on in the first place.

I doubt this is a case of "error in numbers". After all, this is a case of comparing times in the book and was an actual working function of the plot. JKR knew full well who was doing what and how long it would take them to do what they were doing.

Someone mentioned that the order members were at the HQ when Snape gave them the message. Since I don't remember either way, could someone verify that for my lazy self?

This is correct. While I don't have the quote I am certain Moody, Tonks, Lupin and Shacklebolt were all at Grimmauld Place.

If it didn't occur to snape that Harry & co might use thestrils, he may assume they'd high-tail it to Hogsmeade to find transport.

Dumbledore said that when Snape realised Harry hadn't returned with Dolores Umbridge in the Forest (and seeing as he knew that Harry thought Sirius was a captive) it is logical for Snape to realise that Harry would do something about it.

No one would have been the wiser, and if Harry said something, Snape doesn't necessarily know Sirius' nickname is Padfoot. He could have allowed Harry to be lured to the MoM without any hope of aid, knowing that Voldemort would have been able to acheive his goal that night, and Snape wouldn't have had to hide his true allegiance any longer.

While you do raise a raised point, I believe this is what did happen anyway. Voldemort (his Death Eaters) had more then enough time in retrieving the prophecy before the Order even arrived at the scene.

Snape alerting the Order was his act of maintaining an eye of good for the Order; an indication that he was on their side. It would still allow him to spy on Dumbledore/the Order.

...But this is the thing, Dumbledore would not make it THE communication method for the Order if it's slow (meaning, it takes hours for it to travel from Snape to Grimmauld Place, then hours back again). No matter how you look at that it is just unfathomable. JKR had any oppurtinity to establish the way of communicating, and she had to think of something this slow?...Ah - we've argued this before, you and I.

BUT the Order - in general - already has the same FAST means to communicate that the rest of the Wizarding world has - FLOO - and Harry has already used it. The problem is that you are looking for the PERFECT way for ALL communications. And THAT may not be the point of a Patronus Message.

The Patronus Message CAN be fast for short nearby distances - as we saw when Hagrid was signaled. But we don't have canon that it is for long distances. And we may even have canon from Tonks' patronus that it ISN'T all that fast at short distances of a few miles (2 or 3) It's hard to tell - hers MAY be slow specifically because it is weak - if we are to believe Snape's assessment of it.

We ARE told however that it is the most SECURE form of communication for the Order - NEVER are we told it is the fastest. In fact, for the 'other' Order emergency that year (Arthur being bitten), Albus did NOT use his patronus message - despite the need for security. Instead he used Fawkes and I think he did so because of the need for speed. Unfortunately, Snape didn't have Fawkes at his disposal at the time.

I'm guessing the normal use by the Order when they are in a hurry would be to open a connection and send the Patronus through the floo. Snape can't very well use this method to contact Sirius as he would then expose the Order floo location to the Ministry, since his floo is under watch.

----------------

hpfan - thanks for typing that out for us!...Notice though that Snape's eyes are glittering. There has been a nice discussion over on Dev Snape thread about glittering eyes and what they imply about Snape's character--hwyla, you can explain this better than me, I am sure (Jo uses this technique in certain situations to explain emotions about Snape). Needless to say, he may not be polite about how he tries to gather information from Harry, but he gets information out of Harry and makes sure Harry stays put until Dumbledore arrives.Snape's glittering eyes are one of the ONLY repeat clues about him that we can't pin to a particular emotion. For instance - whenever he whispers or speaks very softly, he is so angry he's ready to blow. It's the stage before an explosion.

But Snape's eyes have glittered for many different reasons, so they are harder to interpret. But it is usually over either very strong emotion (including fear), amusement or an indication of an adrenaline rush. And it's hard to tell here.

It could be amusement that he's 'managing' Harry, accomplishing what Albus asked him to do with the kid - keep him at the base of the stairs - but also doing it in a way that provides Snape with a new 'true memory' of hassling Harry for when he must return to Voldy.

Considering his eventual need to return to Voldy is probably exactly what he and Albus were just discussing, I think gathering recent 'true memories' was of vital importance for Snape that year, knowing he would have to return to Voldy soon. He has to have enough to show or he won't come out of it alive.

This is backed by Albus' question later in the year - Are you prepared? How else could he 'prepare' but by building up 'true memories' so Voldy won't just meet a blank wall when he's occluding. He has to have memories available that he can be safe letting Voldy to see. And mostly Voldy would want to see how he treats Harry.

And here's also where the 'excitement/adrenaline rush' or even fear might come in. If he and Albus were just discussing his return to spying then it would be top of his mind.

But it could also be that Harry's panic is setting off all kinds of warning bells and Snape's 'worried' - WHAT has happened NOW. It is always so hard to tell with his eyes.

Mostly his eyes signal that he is feeling something he can't quite hide or cover-up. It's the only indication we have for his emotions - it's HIS 'heart on his sleeve'

...But Dumbledore seems to realize that something was going on, because he arrives with a curious expression on his face.Well - Harry WAS yelling pretty loudly at that door. Albus knew something was up. I think he just asked Snape to please step outside and make sure to keep Harry there while he placed the pensieve in safe keeping.

I know there's been lengthy discussions about why Snape is good or evil based on canon with some convincing examples for both side. However, I believe that Snape is good based on genre and the moral principles that have always been stressed in the series.

:evil:If Snape is evil what moral lessons do we learn about people?

People are just as they seem, even if they do good deeds it is with bad motives and in order to manipulate good people.
Those who have been poorly brought up, teased, those who are ugly and bad mannered and often unkind are not to be trusted. They will/can not change.
Love from others and exposure to good (7 yrs as student and about 15 as teacher) is not enough to deeply effect someone.
Even those who you trust most (Dumbledore) will let you down in important areas, you should always be cautious and not give up too much.


Most of these we can/did learn from Lord Voldemort in some way?

:angel:If Snape is good the moral lessons we learn are?

Sometimes even people we do not like (even the unlikeable) are good and worthy of trust.
First impressions are often wrong, for things are not always what they seem.
We should reserve full judgment for full knowledge and not be rash about pronouncing someone as evil.
Love, kindness, good, hope, etc. are very effecting and can change a person.
We must learn to trust people, especially when we don't have all the facts


JKR has continually shown her desire to teach moral/life lessons in her books (life/death, good/evil, friendship, bravery, hope/despair, love/hate, etc.). Frankly if Snape does turn out to be evil she is passing up a boatload of lessons that have been perfectly set up, and could be beautifully executed. :huh: To me, it just seems out of character for her style as well as her genre. What do you think?

As for motivating students -- I can't see in his head, so I can't disagree -- but if he was trying to motivate Neville by threatening Trevor, why did he immediately blame Hermione when it worked? Generally when you do something to motivate someone, you expect it to work, or at least, to possibly work. Obviously, he expected Trevor to die.
He blamed Hermione because she had helped Neville cheat on the class assignment. Given the fact that Snape is an astute, observational teacher, I always thought that he had either seen or heard Hermione whispering to Neville. That he still allowed Neville to use his antidote on Trevor, is evidence to me that he didn't really intend for the toad to die.



No, he's afraid of his mean teacher and Hermione is brought to tears repeatedly by him, completely unprovoked.
Repeatedly? I can only remember the one incident when he made her cry. It was also the only incident when he was unprovoked. I'm sorry, but Hermione is really, really irritating. She's enough to make a Saint want to throttle her and Snape should be given credit for being as patient as he is with her. His comments to her have been harsh and critical, but what is he supposed to do? Have tea with her and explain that she needs to learn to keep her mouth shut and her hands at her side?

Throughout my entire K-12 education, I have heard teachers say things that are just as harsh and critical as what Snape says, and I wasn't that upset by it. Even when it was directed at me. You're angry about it, then you go and whine to your friends, then promptly forget all about it. Of all the people I know who have been snapped at by a teacher, none of us are traumatized by it. Hermione seems to get over it quickly as well since she hasn't bothered to change her behavior in any way - she's still "an insufferable know it all" (:lol: I absolutley love that line!). Kids are far more resilient than we adults think them to be.

Neville is a different case entirely. I really like and sympathize with Neville. The poor kid gets no peace and quiet. On the other hand, Snape doesn't seem to know any other way to deal with him - or any other student for that matter. This is a situation in which Snape's employer (Dumbledore) needs to intervene in the situation and tell him that he's being inappropriate. If Snape knows no other way to handle the kid, he can hardly be blamed for dealing with the situation to the best of his abilities. As to whether or not he should know how to interact with children in a patient compassionate way, I won't even begin to judge. There are lots of things that I should know, and yet they mystify me. I personally, can hardly criticize the man for a fault that I am guilty of.

I find it interesting that Dumbeldore doesn't intervene. Dumbledore, the other teachers, and parents all keep their mouths shut. Others in the books don't believe that Snape's behavior is so harmful to the emotional welfare of the students that it needs to be stopped, so I don't get too worked up about it.




I'll just say that Albus didn't seem to think Snape was slow to contact the Order and I think he's a better judge
:tu: Dumbledore doesn't think it took too long, no other Order members are suspicious, even Harry and Hermione don't question the timeline. If something weren't quite right, someone would have noticed and said something.




Now, reaching a bit here, but Snape's partonus comment to Tonks could be one of his "teaching moments" as in "get it together woman, you need to be at your best for the order's sake." or "don't let your silly crush keep you from performing your job." Though ultimately, most likely it was a jab at Lupin- or Sirius, if Snape thought he was the source of Tonk's grief.
I never thought of it that way. :clap: Yay! Now there's only one instance - that I can think of - where Snape was just plain nasty! I'm tellin' you folks, he's just misunderstood.

My point is not that Snape's hatred of Harry has compromised the cause, but rather that it very well could have on several occasions.
Yes, I did notice that you wrote that Snape’s hatred of Harry has nearly compromised the cause in your earlier post, I guess I just don’t really agree that it’s a bad thing that his hatred of Harry could have compromised the cause, since it hasn’t compromised it. We could just as easily say that Harry’s hatred of Snape could compromise the cause, or that anyone could do something that compromises the cause. What matters to me is not what could have happened, but what actually did happen. And in my opinion Snape hasn’t compromised the cause, although I understand that people have different opinions on that.

Doesn't JKR say she's not very good with numbers? Could that extend to time? Maybe we're deciphering something she wasn't rock-solid on in the first place.
Yes, I believe she has said several times that she’s not good at maths. Personally, I think that’s just a timeline mistake, and it isn’t the only timeline mistake in the books either.

For example, in PoA it was said that Dumbledore became headmaster around the same time as Lupin became a student, and therefore that would have been around 1970. In HBP, however, Dumbledore becomes headmaster around ten years after Voldemort left school, so that would place it in 1955. Personally, I prefer to see this as a simple timeline mistake, and not try to come up with elaborate theories as to why Dumbledore becomes headmaster in 1955, then resigns and then becomes headmaster again in 1970.

Similarly, I see the end of OotP as a case of “Oh dear. Maths.” I just don’t think JKR thought about the timeline that much, especially given how she has said that she’s bad at maths and being specific about numbers is not how she thinks. Or maybe it isn’t a mistake, but Patronus messages simply aren’t all that fast. At any rate, Dumbledore sees nothing wrong with the timeline, he certainly doesn’t suggest that Snape delayed or did anything wrong, and that’s good enough for me.

JKR has continually shown her desire to teach moral/life lessons in her books (life/death, good/evil, friendship, bravery, hope/despair, love/hate, etc.). Frankly if Snape does turn out to be evil she is passing up a boatload of lessons that have been perfectly set up, and could be beautifully executed. To me, it just seems out of character for her style as well as her genre. What do you think?
I absolutely agree. To me evil!Snape doesn’t make much sense in terms of the themes and lessons of the series, and it seems out of character for JKR’s style.

This timeline thing in OOTP just doesn’t fit. It could be that Snape delayed the message. It could be that JKR messed this thing up. Or it could be that Snape messed up.
If the patronus message is so slow that it takes hours to reach Grimmauld place it was really stupid to use it. Snape could be guaranteed the message would be too late. Now Snape is intelligent, he would have used the floo in Umbridge’s office. Umbridge was absent, as Snape knows.
An intelligent Snape knew that thestrals are used for the carriages. He also knows that Harry can see them. He cannot have believed that Harry wouldn’t use them. But maybe Snape did mess up, maybe he didn’t think about the floo in Umbridge’s office; maybe he was stupid enough not to think about the thestrals.

Anyway, it doesn’t mean he is on Dumbledore’s side at the end of HBP. For all we know spinners end does mean spinners end: that is the moment Snape made his choice to throw in his lot with Voldemort.

I really don't buy the argument that Snape might have sent the Order to the Ministry late because he assumed the Death Eaters would have the prophecy and leave by then. There's no way evil!Snape or Voldemort would allow for the slightest chance of losing the prophecy. It also doesn't make sense for Snape to do it to gain Dumbledore's trust, because Dumbledore already trusts him completely and Dumbledore would never know it if Snape had decided to let Harry die by not sending the Order.

An interesting thing about that just occurred to me. I wonder why Dumbledore didn't destroy the prophecy record at the ministry. I bet no one would have even noticed. Anybody think it was a plan to draw Voldemort out of hiding? But if so, I think that makes the error of not telling Harry about the prophecy earlier much worse. I assume Dumbledore knew that only Voldemort and Harry could take the prophecy off the shelf. Why would they have one Order member keep watch? What happened to whoever was supposed to be guarding the prophecy the night of the Ministry incident?

Also, I thought of another thing that I don't know how to explain if Snape is evil. Remember at the end of GoF when Snape shows his dark mark to Fudge? That could conceivably be that he was sure Fudge wouldn't take that seriously and wanted Dumbledore to trust him more, but that doesn't seem very Snape-ish to me. Would evil!Snape really risk showing a pretty solid proof that Voldemort is back to Fudge at that point? Is that what Voldemort would want him to do?

Also, on the whole topic of the idea that Snape treats Harry badly to make "true memories" of being on the bad side for Voldemort, I don't buy it. I think Snape is good and so do the advocates of this idea, so I'm going to assume he's good. In that case, he has memories of interactions with Dumbledore that he HAS to hide from Voldemort. Whatever he said to Dumbledore to gain Dumbledore's complete trust, at the least. There are probably a whole lot of such memories. If he shares some memories with Voldemort, don't you think Voldemort would ask for more? Don't you think he'd want all the times Snape ever met with Dumbledore? I think he has to block Voldemort from his memory completely.

Also, I think it's safe to assume that Voldemort doesn't have a pensieve, so you're talking about Snape only blocking out particular memories from Voldemort? That just doesn't seem right to me.

Also, I think it's safe to assume that Voldemort doesn't have a pensieve, so you're talking about Snape only blocking out particular memories from Voldemort? That just doesn't seem right to me.

I think we must suppose that blocking out specific memories is precisely what Snape has to do in his meetings with Voldemort. If Snape just blocks Voldemort out completely, Voldemort will know what he is doing, just as Snape did, when Draco used Occlumency against him in their little talk the night of SLughorn's Christmas party in HBP.

I do not think that Voldemort would permit one of his Death Eaters to block him out completely. He would insist (probably not very nicely :lol:) on being allowed in.

Snape himself described the process in the 'Occlumency' chapter of OotP:
"The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when someone is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down the feeling and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."

Note he says 'the feelings and memories that contradict the lie', not 'all feeling and memories'. He is speaking in general terms, but I think he is talking about what he, himself, has done.

I agree with zgirnus - if Snape was throwing up a total block of occlumency it would be obvious to Voldy that there was something Snape is hiding. That's why I say he has had to build up 'true memories' that he can show Voldy. Those memories themselves are what contradict the lies.

That's also why I believe Albus' words at the end of GoF were about whether Snape was 'prepared' - what else would Albus mean by that?

I doubt he was he asking if Snape had made out his will. What other preparations could Snape have been making that would allow him to live past that meeting with Voldy? Albus was asking if Snape had enough memories available to lie to Voldy.

maybe snape pretended to kill dumbldore...like him and dumbledore had it all planned out to trick voldemort and his goons*crosses fingers hopefully*

I agree with zgirnus - if Snape was throwing up a total block of occlumency it would be obvious to Voldy that there was something Snape is hiding. That's why I say he has had to build up 'true memories' that he can show Voldy. Those memories themselves are what contradict the lies.

That's also why I believe Albus' words at the end of GoF were about whether Snape was 'prepared' - what else would Albus mean by that?

I doubt he was he asking if Snape had made out his will. What other preparations could Snape have been making that would allow him to live past that meeting with Voldy? Albus was asking if Snape had enough memories available to lie to Voldy.

zgirnius's point is fair. I have to admit, I'm going to have to change my mind about how Snape blocks Voldemort. But I don't get why Voldemort can't tell. I wonder if Snape and Dumbledore have a habit of having meetings twice, once for real and once for what to show Voldemort.

I don't think you're right though, hwyla, about what being prepared meant. It could have just meant are your lies prepared, as in the explanations he gave Bellatrix in Spinner's End. He could have meant, "Are you sufficiently calm and in control to block out the right memories?" If he meant building up memories to allow Voldemort to see, why bother asking? They don't have time to make some more memories. I think he just meant are you mentally prepared for the risk and the difficulty, and for returning to the presence of the most evil wizard in your life time?

I think he just meant are you mentally prepared for the risk and the difficulty, and for returning to the presence of the most evil wizard in your life time?
:tu: That's how I always interpreted the remark.

No, he's not good and he will not "come back to the good side."

I don't see J.K. Rowling taking a character like Snape and building him up to be this really evil character, and then in the final book having it be this giant misunderstanding. Throughout all the books, it has been Harry, Ron, and sometimes Hermione who have all suspected Snape to be bad. Although no one beleived them. That has definitely been a theme with Snape in all of the books. If in the 7th book we found out that Snape really is this good guy, that would ruin the affect of Snape in all the previous books. If there's one thing I hate, it's characters that are built up to be evil but turn out good. ;) It is completely cheesy in my mind.

I just cannot imagine J.K. Rowling doing that. No sir.

Really, horcruxe7? Most people seem to believe EXACTLY the opposite - JKR wouldn't develop a character that Dumbledore trusts completely and then show that Dumbledore was wrong and he's really evil. That would be like the bad guys winning in the end.

I don't see J.K. Rowling taking a character like Snape and building him up to be this really evil character, and then in the final book having it be this giant misunderstanding. Throughout all the books, it has been Harry, Ron, and sometimes Hermione who have all suspected Snape to be bad.
I disagree, I think Snape is on the 'good side'. I would point out that Hermione suspected Snape exaclty once, in PS/SS. This was the first book. She jumped to a conclusion, assisted by some incriminating circumstances, and was wrong. That she has never done so again is in my opinion because she has learned from the experience and now takes a careful look before leaping to a conclusion.

Although no one beleived them.

In Book 1, noone believed them for the very excellent reason that they were wrong.

That has definitely been a theme with Snape in all of the books.

Putting HBP aside for a moment, in what books has Snape been the villain?
CoS-does not play a big role. The villain is Tom Riddle, acting through Ginny. Snape does teach the kids 'Expelliarmus!'.
PoA-The villain seems to be Sirius Black, turns out to be Peter Pettigrew. Snape plays a big role. However, it seems to me that his actions are best construed as an attempt to get revenge on the villain Sirius Black, a motive entirely consistent with loyalties on the 'good side'. (In fact, a motive which is problematic for a loyal Death Eater...)
GoF-The villain is Barty Crouch, Jr. Snape plays a small role.
OotP-The villain is Voldemort. Snape definitely continues his conflict with Harry, but he does attempt to teach Harry, and he does warn the Orde of Harry's danger in the end.

If in the 7th book we found out that Snape really is this good guy, that would ruin the affect of Snape in all the previous books. If there's one thing I hate, it's characters that are built up to be evil but turn out good. ;) It is completely cheesy in my mind.


It seems to me that the main effect Snape has had in the series (leaving out HBP for just a bit longer) is that of the nasty teacher who makes Harry's life miserable. (Though not, for example, nearly as miserable as Umbridge. does.) I don't see how he was built up to be evil.

Now, there is certainly an argument to be made that he seemed evil in HBP. But to my mind this was not the logical continuation of 5 books of making us see more and more clearly that he is evil. This would mark a change, from showing us ambiguous evidence about Snape, to finally showing us his true colors.

Personally, I do not see his actions in HBP as necessarily indicating he is evil. The Spinner's End chapter rather pushed me off the fence and onto the other side. of the Snape debate. But I think that JKR has still left him ambiguous, and her fianl revelation about him is going to be one of the questions we finally get answered only in Book 7.

Right.

Okay.

Well.

:nc: lol

I did not mean that he has ever been the "villian." I meant, Harry and Ron have always seemed to beleive Snape to be evil and they never full trusted him. I don't think J.K. Rowling would build him up as the evil teacher and in the end make him out to be the "hero" or however you think he will be portrayed in Book 7.

No one will know if Snape is really evil or not until Book 7, you're right. This is just my theory. I don't trust Snape. If you do, then hey, I guess we'll see. You could be right! :D

Snape's glittering eyes are one of the ONLY repeat clues about him that we can't pin to a particular emotion. For instance - whenever he whispers or speaks very softly, he is so angry he's ready to blow. It's the stage before an explosion.

But Snape's eyes have glittered for many different reasons, so they are harder to interpret. But it is usually over either very strong emotion (including fear), amusement or an indication of an adrenaline rush. And it's hard to tell here.

It could be amusement that he's 'managing' Harry, accomplishing what Albus asked him to do with the kid - keep him at the base of the stairs - but also doing it in a way that provides Snape with a new 'true memory' of hassling Harry for when he must return to Voldy.

Considering his eventual need to return to Voldy is probably exactly what he and Albus were just discussing, I think gathering recent 'true memories' was of vital importance for Snape that year, knowing he would have to return to Voldy soon. He has to have enough to show or he won't come out of it alive.

This is backed by Albus' question later in the year - Are you prepared? How else could he 'prepare' but by building up 'true memories' so Voldy won't just meet a blank wall when he's occluding. He has to have memories available that he can be safe letting Voldy to see. And mostly Voldy would want to see how he treats Harry.

And here's also where the 'excitement/adrenaline rush' or even fear might come in. If he and Albus were just discussing his return to spying then it would be top of his mind.

But it could also be that Harry's panic is setting off all kinds of warning bells and Snape's 'worried' - WHAT has happened NOW. It is always so hard to tell with his eyes.

Mostly his eyes signal that he is feeling something he can't quite hide or cover-up. It's the only indication we have for his emotions - it's HIS 'heart on his sleeve'
I knew that you could explain that WAY better than I could, thanks hwyla. I have always interpreted the "are you prepared" just to mean whether or not Snape was ready in a general sense. But when you think about it, Voldemort's return was not a surprise to Snape, since the Dark Mark had been becoming more and more clear as the year progressed. The Good!Snape and Evil!Snape would have to have told Dumbledore, mainly because he could not ensure his welcome back from Voldemort. Snape must have prepared in some way, and it's not so difficult to believe that he had to prepare his mind. He was 13 years out of practice at fooling Voldemort (or Dumbledore, whatever you prefer).

I also agree with zgirnius that Snape could not completely block out Voldemort (or Dumbledore for that matter). Voldemort knows when he is being deceived, so the only possible way to deceive him would be to hide the specific memories that prove the deception false.

As for Snape keeping Harry outside Dumbledore's office while Dumbledore came down in GoF: I can see that, actually, so I'll withdraw that argument.

I believe [JKR] has said several times that she’s not good at maths. Personally, I think that’s just a timeline mistake...
But she makes repeated time-references throughout it. It's 5, it's dinner time, it's sunset, it's completely dark, it's sunrise... if it weren't important, wouldn't she just not mention it?

I really don't buy the argument that Snape might have sent the Order to the Ministry late because he assumed the Death Eaters would have the prophecy and leave by then.
:agree: :tu:

Meanwhile, there isn't any reason to believe that Harry should be able to get to the Dept. of Mysteries. Every floo in the building is monitored and Harry's broom is locked up. Besides, Harry doesn't even know the way to London - his only way there should be a stolen school broom following the train tracks.
1. Borrowed friend's broom
2. Stolen school broom (not that implausible)
3. Hippogriff
4. Thestral
5. Various other creatures Hagrid keeps
6. Umbridge's fireplace
7. Secret passageway out of the school and then floo to Ministry
8. Regular floo despite the fact that they're monitored
9. Something entirely else -- this is Harry Potter we're talking about.

And um, Snape so DOES have reason to believe Harry could get there. We're talking about the boy who at 11 got through 7 super-mega-good teacher-enchantments that were supposed to keep out dangerous full-grown wizards, at 12 discovered the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets that a 1000 years worth of powerful wizards didn't, got inside, and slayed the basilisk inside it. If Snape believed Harry had done half the things he'd accused Harry of(e.g. getting past Dementors into Hogsmeade) -- he should've been expecting anything. He should've known Harry would find a way.

It's my belief that this is when Snape begins to work on Plan B - suggesting to Voldy that HIS secrets weren't safe from Harry - which leads directly to Voldy later occluding Harry.
1. Voldemort "occludes" Harry because of the mortal agony possessing Harry caused him in the MoM.
2. What did Dumbledore think of this plan? Because he didn't seem to know about it in OotP, so um, why didn't Snape run this by him first? Could it possibly be because, um, he'd strongly disagree?
3. In any case, it wasn't working -- Voldemort was still following his original plan in full force, and as I pointed out above, there were numerous ways for a boy with Harry's ingenuity and friends to escape Hogwarts if they wanted to.

And as for the Rookwood vision, he wanted Harry to see it. He let him see into his mind for real, give him the impression that he was seeing a fact when he got the Sirius vision. So Snape couldn't've really used it to convince him to block Harry out.

Harry was NOT clearly improving. He has just shown the best so far, but it is a miniscule improvement for what appears to have been 20 to 24 lessons.
Well, Snape seemed to think he was. Weren't his exact words "Well, Potter, that was clearly an improvement? :p

Having Voldy see him plead with the boy to learn - or watch him tell Harry that he would try to trick him with a false vision - would be sure to get Snape killed and I don't think it fair to assume that Snape should do that just because the kid won't practise.
I agree! :wow: This (IMO) has always been the biggest oversight of Snape & Harry & Occlumency -- not his hatred of James or their mutual hatred of each other. Snape is a spy. Harry is functioning as Voldemort's personal spy-cam. How is Snape supposed to teach Harry something while simultaneously pretending for Voldemort that he's working to keep Harry from learning it?!

Also, I thought of another thing that I don't know how to explain if Snape is evil. Remember at the end of GoF when Snape shows his dark mark to Fudge?...Is that what Voldemort would want him to do?
:clap: Exactly what I think -- Voldemort doesn't want people knowing he's back. Of course... maybe Snape was only anti-Voldie until Dumbledore said he trusted Sirius too... maybe that is what pushed Snape back to Voldemort... :huh:

I don't think J.K. Rowling would build him up as the evil teacher and in the end make him out to be the "hero" or however you think he will be portrayed in Book 7.
I agree he won't be this great "hero", but if his evilness was supposed to be a twist, why expose it in the sixth book? Shouldn't she save it for the 7th? :huh:

I agree! :wow: This (IMO) has always been the biggest oversight of Snape & Harry & Occlumency -- not his hatred of James or their mutual hatred of each other. Snape is a spy. Harry is functioning as Voldemort's personal spy-cam. How is Snape supposed to teach Harry something while simultaneously pretending for Voldemort that he's working to keep Harry from learning it?!


Well, Snape can do Occlumency himself can't he? He could hide that he's helping Harry and allow Voldie to see him penetrating Harry and making him weak..right? But then again I could be wrong, because it's not mind reading..

Well, Snape can do Occlumency himself can't he? He could hide that he's helping Harry and allow Voldie to see him penetrating Harry and making him weak..right? But then again I could be wrong, because it's not mind reading..
I think what Blood River is saying is that Voldemort can see HARRY's memories of the Occlumency lessons. If he sees in those memories Snape being super-nice and bending over backwards to teach Harry Occlumency, he will decide Snape is on Dumbledore's side after all...

I agree! :wow: This (IMO) has always been the biggest oversight of Snape & Harry & Occlumency -- not his hatred of James or their mutual hatred of each other. Snape is a spy. Harry is functioning as Voldemort's personal spy-cam. How is Snape supposed to teach Harry something while simultaneously pretending for Voldemort that he's working to keep Harry from learning it?!

This seems so logical, but I don’t buy it.
I believe the reason Harry had to have lessons with Snape was because he was a superb occlumens, someone who could help Harry learning this. But what is the use of a superb occlumens if he is not supposed to show it? Then you might just as well take McGonagall, who asks Snape or Dumbledore the deal with occlumency and starts teaching Harry. The lessons would not be very effective, but Snape’s lessons where he has to act are not very effective either.

And why take the risk with Snape if he is hindered in his abilities by fear of Voldemort watching?
Dumbledore discusses the lessons with Harry at the end of OOTP and during HBP. He calls them a fiasco, but he doesn’t say that Snape had to act because of fear about Voldemort watching. Dumbledore trusts Snape and knows that Harry has a different view about the man, yet he doesn’t mention this which could help Harry understand Snape better. Dumbledore states that he forgot that some wounds are too deep for healing, he doesn’t mention keeping Snape’s cover story intact. And if Dumbledore was not afraid, why would Snape?
In the end I think there is plenty of evidence that whatever the reason Snape acted like he did during the lessons, fear of Voldemort watching wasn’t one of them.

But since Harry can't do occlumency, Volders could see it through Harry. However, Snape can easily show Harry's lack of overall progress (despite some at the very end) to Voldemort, as evidence that his words to Harry were just lip service. Except the bit about Voldy tricking Harry with false memories...

okay, another thought... Did they have knowledge of Voldemort being able to read Harry's mind? They were trying to keep Harry from letting Voldemort's memories/thoughts in, but was there any reason to think that voldemort could see into Harry's mind? If so, there are probably many many thing Harry could've revealed. It seems, the only time voldemort was "in" harry was when his hatred bubbled up a Dumbledore. Still, the messages were coming from Voldemort and to/through Harry, even though Voldemort was using Harry's eyes to see Dumbledore (maybe Voldy could've performed Legillawhatsit on Dumbly or Snape via Harry..?)

I finished the reread of OotP today, and have moved on to the HBP reread. Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I thought of something when I was reading the Spinner's End chapter.

What if Dumbledore hired Snape on one condition. Since Harry's name was down in the book of future Hogwarts students, Snape had overheard part of the prophecy and betrayed the Potters, Dumbledore could have made Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to never harm Harry and look out for his [I]physical [I] well being. This could be the reason that Dumbledore has implicit faith in Snape. He literally cannot allow Harry to be in direct harms way.

I know that movies are different from book, but JKR said that PoA movie has significant undertones. Something struck me the last time that I watched it. When Lupin turns into a werewolf, Snape puts himself between 3 students that he hates and Lupin.

Just a thought.

But since Harry can't do occlumency, Volders could see it through Harry. However, Snape can easily show Harry's lack of overall progress (despite some at the very end) to Voldemort, as evidence that his words to Harry were just lip service. Except the bit about Voldy tricking Harry with false memories...

okay, another thought... Did they have knowledge of Voldemort being able to read Harry's mind? They were trying to keep Harry from letting Voldemort's memories/thoughts in, but was there any reason to think that voldemort could see into Harry's mind? If so, there are probably many many thing Harry could've revealed. It seems, the only time voldemort was "in" harry was when his hatred bubbled up a Dumbledore. Still, the messages were coming from Voldemort and to/through Harry, even though Voldemort was using Harry's eyes to see Dumbledore (maybe Voldy could've performed Legillawhatsit on Dumbly or Snape via Harry..?)

Hmm.. but didn't Snape say it's necessary to be in close contact with someone and have eye contact for it to be successful? So obviously as spy, Snape would be seeing Voldie, but how would Voldie ever have a chance to get near enough to Harry to do that. The only thing he could do was send in "visions" I guess, but he couldn't extract from Harry. That's why Kreacher ended up valuable. He showed Voldie what Harry couldn't.

What if Dumbledore hired Snape on one condition. Since Harry's name was down in the book of future Hogwarts students, Snape had overheard part of the prophecy and betrayed the Potters, Dumbledore could have made Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to never harm Harry and look out for his [I]physical [I] well being. This could be the reason that Dumbledore has implicit faith in Snape. He literally cannot allow Harry to be in direct harms way. I personally believe that Albus would never ask someone to take a Vow that could kill them. BUT IF he did I'm not sure it would have been before Snape was hired. After all, the Potters were still alive at the time.

I think Snape had been Albus' spy for close to a year by then. We have the clues that the Potters were moving around like Slug did for that year. Minerva said Sirius (really Peter) was keeping Voldy aware of the Potters 'movements' (plural). And that Albus was aware there was a spy 'close to the Potters'. And Sirius knew the spy (Peter) was giving info for a year.

Obviously, that year for the Potters was one of find a new place to live, tell your friends where they can find you, Peter tells Voldy, Death Eaters attack, escape and restart.

The MOST probable reason the were able to keep escaping with a baby in their arms is that they were being warned ahead of time (by the Albus based on info from his spy) and escaping before the Death Eaters ever got to where they were hiding.

And we have the clue from Fudge (who may know the gist of it, but unlike Minerva probably didn't know the details) that it was Albus' spy that warned him Voldy was after the Potters, sending them into hiding. Fudge meant the Fidelus hiding, but I think it just makes sense that it was really the reason they began the 'movements' in the first place.

So, I think Snape was hired because Albus trusted him after a close to a year of working together. Especially since Snape probably spent a good deal of his spying time with his ears open to plans for upcoming attacks to keep the Potters alive. And that he (logical wizard) MAY have been the one to figure the traitor had to be a Marauder ('close to the Potters'). Of course it could also have been Albus (or the two together) who figured it out, but it would have been based on info brought by Snape.

Unfortunately, they were never able to center it down to Peter.

Hmm.. but didn't Snape say it's necessary to be in close contact with someone and have eye contact for it [legilimency] to be successful? He also said in the same conversation that Harry/Voldy seemed to be an exception because of the scar.

okay, another thought... Did they have knowledge of Voldemort being able to read Harry's mind? They were trying to keep Harry from letting Voldemort's memories/thoughts in, but was there any reason to think that voldemort could see into Harry's mind? If so, there are probably many many thing Harry could've revealed.
Legimilency is not mind reading as Snape told us. So Voldemort couldn’t read Harry’s mind. Dumbledore doesn’t fear that Voldemort reads Harry’s mind, he tells him about the prophecy and the horcruxes.
And we have proof that Voldemort can’t read Harry’s mind: he relied on Kreacher to learn that Harry cared for Sirius etc. and he didn’t know that Harry didn’t know about the prophecy. He even didn’t try to read the prophecy in Harry’s mind, once again showing it is not possible to read a mind, which Snape told us to begin with.

Dumbledore states that he forgot that some wounds are too deep for healing, he doesn’t mention keeping Snape’s cover story intact. And if Dumbledore was not afraid, why would Snape?
I don't think Dumbledore knew. And Dumbledore was afraid -- that Voldemort would use Harry to spy on him, so really why wouldn't Snape fear the same thing? He doesn't really understand Harry's connection to Voldemort any more than anyone else.

Besides, in the absence of anything interesting about Dumbledore, why wouldn't Voldemort amuse himself by checking up on his spy? It's not that inconceivable so I think Snape would be afraid of it -- even if Dumbledore wasn't.

Dumbledore could have made Snape make an Unbreakable Vow...
I agree with hwyla -- Dumbledore wouldn't ask this of someone.

Legimilency is not mind reading as Snape told us. So Voldemort couldn’t read Harry’s mind. Dumbledore doesn’t fear that Voldemort reads Harry’s mind, he tells him about the prophecy and the horcruxes.
Snape was quibbling about semantics -- Voldemort could still sense and see Harry's memories, feelings, thoughts etc... just not peruse it like a book.

Dumbledore doesn't fear that Voldemort will "read" Harry's mind anymore. He only confided the prophecy and horcruxes in Harry after the possession at the MoM because Voldemort would then be using occlumency against Harry.

And we have proof that Voldemort can’t read Harry’s mind: he relied on Kreacher to learn that Harry cared for Sirius etc. and he didn’t know that Harry didn’t know about the prophecy. He even didn’t try to read the prophecy in Harry’s mind, once again showing it is not possible to read a mind, which Snape told us to begin with.
As for the prophecy -- Voldemort wasn't going to risk using their connection again; it was after the MoM incident.

I think you have a point though about Sirius and Harry. It implies that, at least, Voldemort could never seek information intentionally (which is what Snape says about legilimency and occlumency). He could find things accidentally or spy as they were happening. Snape could still be nervous because even though Voldemort can't intentionally seek out memories, that doesn't mean he couldn't come across one accidentally.

Regarding exactly what Voldy could find out through Harry - I think it's important to remember that Albus was avoiding Harry since summer. So the suspicion that Voldy COULD look through Harry's eyes was there for months before they began occlumency lessons. Not just the suspicion that Voldy would find out secrets told Harry (altho' that was part of it) but that Voldy would SEE Albus in close proximity to Harry.

Albus was avoiding Harry at that point because he didn't want Voldy to see them as having a close connection and so be tempted to use Harry to 'see' what Albus was up to. This is also why Harry was supposed to be kept in the dark about all the secrets of the Order (except it's location, since that was necessary if he was to enter)

We don't get occlumency lessons until AFTER Harry saw through Naigini's eyes. But remember that Naigini also saw through Harry's - the snake inside him that wanted to bite Albus. At THAT point it is decided to give Harry occlumency lessons.

Why didn't they try to teach him earlier, like say over summer, when perhaps someone ELSE could have taught the lessons. Snape avoided the fake Moody's eye, so perhaps he's a legilimens and some people suspect Remus might be one.

I think the very act of teaching occlumency runs the risk of opening the mind further. At least Albus seems to say exactly that at the end of OotP. So, they tried to avoid it until Albus realized someone else was looking at him through Harry's eyes.

One thing we DON'T see (because Harry doesn't) is what Snape MIGHT have been doing to try to convince Voldy to NOT look through Harry's eyes. By the beginning of HBP, we see he has succeeded. Voldy was now occluding HIS mind. Why would he do that after proof that he had in Harry a weapon that could be used to run the Order after false missons and into traps?

I think it can only be because Snape was able to convince Voldy that Harry could look in on him. Harry's 'dream' of Rookwood gave Snape the means to convince Voldy that a mind connection was possibly dangerous. Unfortunately that dream came the same time as Harry opened the door in his dream. Voldy took the chance to push a vision at Harry - but he seems to have only risked it the one time.

Anyway - the worry all along was that Voldy would be able to use Harry's eyes to actually 'see' or watch. So, I don't find it at ALL surprising that Snape had to be extremely careful in the manner he taught Harry in and exactly what he could tell Harry. We must remember that even with all the caution Snape must have needed to use, he told Harry more of what was going on than anyone else had that year.

One thing we DON'T see (because Harry doesn't) is what Snape MIGHT have been doing to try to convince Voldy to NOT look through Harry's eyes. By the beginning of HBP, we see he has succeeded. Voldy was now occluding HIS mind. Why would he do that after proof that he had in Harry a weapon that could be used to run the Order after false missons and into traps?
This was already explained. Dumbledore said that Harry was able to flit in and out of Voldemort's mind all year without a scratch, while Voldemort couldn't possess Harry for more than a minute without enduring mortal agony. Voldemort doesn't understand why; he doesn't know that it was the love in Harry's heart that drove him out. He just knows that Harry was able to seriously hurt him in a situation when by all laws of magic he should have had all the power -- and he isn't going to risk that again. That is why he is occluding Harry.

If Snape was trying to convince Voldemort to block up the connection (a riskier move, IMO, than trying to motivate Harry to work harder at Occlumency) -- it didn't work. It was ultimately Harry's heart that sent Voldemort packing.

Also, I'm pretty sure Voldemort let Harry see the Rookwood vision. It reinforced Harry's belief that he was seeing what was actually happening at the time -- and that Voldemort didn't want him to see it (although if they expected Harry to be able to occlude Voldemort, surely Voldemort could occlude him -- and occlumency is an ongoing art, so Voldemort was perfectly capable of picking and choosing what he let Harry see). In any case, the reason Harry ran to the MoM, convinced that Sirius was really there and being tortured, was because of the things he'd seen before.

Blood River - I agree that Voldy could not possess Harry - but that doesn't make sense as to why he couldn't keep sending a mix of true and false visions. The false vision worked. Voldy didn't feel pain from that. Voldy had a real opportunity to send the Order running into traps or on wild goose chases with an occasional real vision thrown in so they wouldn't start ignoring the visions. This doesn't have anything to do with Voldy actually possessing Harry.

There has to be more reason than the attempt at possession didn't work. Besides Voldy wouldn't NEED to occlude Harry if he was the one who sent the Rookwood vision. That's the one time Harry was a threat to Voldy. He could see into Voldy's headquarters. If Voldy was in control of that situation, as in Harry could not have seen it unless Voldy sent it to him, then Voldy needing to protect himself from what Harry might see just doesn't make sense. If he sent the Rookwood vision, then Voldy doesn't need to occlude because Harry wouldn't have a way in without Voldy specifically giving it to him.

That's why I think that Snape was behind it. That he was able to somehow convince Voldy that Harry's visions could be a danger

Snape was quibbling about semantics -- Voldemort could still sense and see Harry's memories, feelings, thoughts etc... just not peruse it like a book.
Snape wasn’t quibbling about semantics. Snape was clearly explaining the limitations of legimilency. Limitations which are confirmed with all the things Voldemort didn’t know from Harry.
The key here is the word thoughts. Snape doesn’t say that with legimilency you have access to thoughts. An accomplished legimilens can interpret feelings and memories, not thoughts. Dumbledore was afraid of spying, manipulation, possession. He doesn’t mention mind reading as well.
As for the prophecy -- Voldemort wasn't going to risk using their connection again; it was after the MoM incident.
I meant before the incident. Voldemort assumed that Harry knew about the prophecy (once again showing he is not able to read Harry’s mind). He didn’t even try to collect the prophecy from Harry’s mind, which would be logical if such an thing would be possible. Why not? IMO simply because it can’t be done.

I think it can only be because Snape was able to convince Voldy that Harry could look in on him. Harry's 'dream' of Rookwood gave Snape the means to convince Voldy that a mind connection was possibly dangerous. Unfortunately that dream came the same time as Harry opened the door in his dream. Voldy took the chance to push a vision at Harry - but he seems to have only risked it the one time.
Voldemort sends many, many visions to Harry after the dream of Rockwood. If I recall correctly Harry is dreaming every night about the door.
I got the impression that Dumbledore tells us that it is dangerous for Voldemort to allow Harry access because Harry’s strong emotion can hurt Voldemort.
If Snape tried to convince Voldemort to occlude his mind he failed rather spectacularly.
Anyway - the worry all along was that Voldy would be able to use Harry's eyes to actually 'see' or watch. So, I don't find it at ALL surprising that Snape had to be extremely careful in the manner he taught Harry in and exactly what he could tell Harry. We must remember that even with all the caution Snape must have needed to use, he told Harry more of what was going on than anyone else had that year.
Did it worry Dumbledore though? If it did it is a very strange decision to ask Snape to teach occlumency. If Snape is hindered by this fear, if he has to act so that Voldemort doesn’t suspect any disloyalty on his part we have a teacher who has to be ineffective. And there would still be a danger to Snape.
In that case it would be logical to ask McGonagall. She could be teached by Dumbledore or Snape and teach Harry. Not very effective, but a hindered Snape is not very effective as well. And no danger to Snape’s position as spy. Nor does Dumbledore have to force Snape to do something he doesn’t want to do.
In this case to ask Snape to teach would be a very dumb decision. This decision makes only sense if Dumbledore was not afraid that Snape’s position was endangered by teaching Harry. In that case he used the best occlumens around to teach this.

...Did it [Voldy looking through Harry's eyes] worry Dumbledore though? If it did it is a very strange decision to ask Snape to teach occlumency. If Snape is hindered by this fear, if he has to act so that Voldemort doesn’t suspect any disloyalty on his part we have a teacher who has to be ineffective. And there would still be a danger to Snape.
In that case it would be logical to ask McGonagall. She could be teached by Dumbledore or Snape and teach Harry. Not very effective, but a hindered Snape is not very effective as well. And no danger to Snape’s position as spy. Nor does Dumbledore have to force Snape to do something he doesn’t want to do.
In this case to ask Snape to teach would be a very dumb decision. This decision makes only sense if Dumbledore was not afraid that Snape’s position was endangered by teaching Harry. In that case he used the best occlumens around to teach this.We have no canon to suggest that McGonagall is a legilimens. In fact, I rather doubt she is. Look back to the troll in the bathroom when Hermione lies to her face - no suggestion of penetrating looks or disbelief from McGonagall. So, McGonagall CAN'T teach Harry.

Additionally, Albus puts off having Harry taught for months, waiting until he sees the snake within Harry rise up, wanting to bite him. That's the beginning of Christmas break and just before break is finished Snape goes to #12 to tell Harry about the upcoming lessons. I don't think it can be more obvious that the lessons are a direct result of Albus seeing a hint that Voldy could see directly through Harry's eyes. If he can see through Harry while possessing his snake, then there's no reason to believe he can't get a peek directly.

Note that this is not the same as Voldy possessing Harry. He never was trying to possess Harry at that point, he could just see through his eyes because of the scar connection. Just like when Harry sees Rookwood through Voldy's eyes, he's not actually possessing Voldy either.

By the way - I think it was a calculated gamble to have Snape teach insteadf of Albus. We have two good reasons why Albus can't do the teaching. 1) he'd be too much temptation for Voldy. If Albus was teaching Voldy would be even more likely to keep looking through Harry. 2) Albus is researching Horcruxes. It seems that you can't occlude while performing legilimency. If you could, then Harry would never have ridden Snape's legilimens back into Snape's mind on his protegeo. So, Voldy looking through Harry's eyes is especially dangerous IF Voldy could legilimens Albus and see his interest in the Horcruxes.

While it's dangerous for Snape to be seen by Voldy, it's preferable to his looking in on Albus.

Snape wasn’t quibbling about semantics. Snape was clearly explaining the limitations of legimilency. Limitations which are confirmed with all the things Voldemort didn’t know from Harry.
I think I explained myself badly, but in effect we're saying the same thing -- that he was explaining what legilimency does -- which, to muggles or muggle-raised wizards, sounds very like mind-reading. He disliked what the term "mind-reading" connotes, though, and clarified the difference, but it still sounded very much like mind-reading to Harry because he was still able to see or sense feelings and memories -- he just couldn't seek them out at his leisure. In any case, I agree with you, so...

Voldemort assumed that Harry knew about the prophecy (once again showing he is not able to read Harry’s mind).
Because the mind, literally, cannot be read. It's not a book. As far as I can tell -- and I think you agree, but bear with me -- legilimency only enables Voldemort to sense memories/feelings/thoughts at the top of someone's mind -- but not to seek out information at his leisure. He was able, for example, to tell that the Harry was lying about the PS/SS because Harry felt like a liar, and able, furthermore, to tell that it was in Harry's pocket because Harry was thinking about the fact that the stone was in his pocket and Voldemort could see it in his mind.

It's the same thing with Snape -- if he suppresses the memories and feelings that contradict him, Voldemort can't tell he's lying. The memories are still there, but Voldemort can't see them because he can't seek out what he wants to see, he can only interpret what is given to him. Because most people think of the truth when asked a question, even when they intend to lie, Voldemort can usually find out what he wants just by asking.

He can't ask Harry anything though -- can't trigger anything in Harry's mind with his words. Voldemort has no means of controlling what he sees or senses. He can simply sense and see whatever Harry is feeling or remembering at the time, so while there's still a risk that he might learn things about Harry (as Snape seems to believe when Harry remember's Cedric's death), it's not certain that he'll be able to learn anything useful.

I got the impression that Dumbledore tells us that it is dangerous for Voldemort to allow Harry access because Harry’s strong emotion can hurt Voldemort.
:agree: That's what I thought -- that's what it says in the book, anyway. Maybe Voldemort's worried that Harry will exploit this newfound power through their connection -- he doesn't understand it, so why would he be certain it's only limited to possession? Or, maybe, there's a connection between their link and possession that we don't know about yet.

If Snape tried to convince Voldemort to occlude his mind he failed rather spectacularly.
:tu: Plus, wouldn't Dumbledore tell Harry if Snape had helped him like this?

This decision makes only sense if Dumbledore was not afraid that Snape’s position was endangered by teaching Harry. In that case he used the best occlumens around to teach this.
I agree -- but Snape may still have worried about it himself, inspite of Dumbledore's confidence.

We have no canon to suggest that McGonagall is a legilimens. In fact, I rather doubt she is. Look back to the troll in the bathroom when Hermione lies to her face - no suggestion of penetrating looks or disbelief from McGonagall. So, McGonagall CAN'T teach Harry.
No one said McGonagall was a legilimens -- staniw's point, I believe, was that Snape or Dumbledore could have taught her enough to, in turn, teach Harry. Plus, Harry's successfully managed to lie to Snape before -- so legilimency isn't a foolproof method of detection.

While it's dangerous for Snape to be seen by Voldy, it's preferable to his looking in on Albus.
I agree, and I'm sure that was Dumbledore's thinking.

:tu: Plus, wouldn't Dumbledore tell Harry if Snape had helped him like this?


No, perhaps? IF Snape has done much of use on the Voldemort front in his spying career, we have certainly not hear about it from Dumbledore at this point. (Of course, this COULD be because he has NOT done anything of any use...but I for one don't believe that.)

For example, in HBP "Horcruxes" Dumbledore is discussing the clues which led him to understand that the diary was a Horcrux. He describes Voldemort's anger when he learns his diary was destroyed, and tells Harry (I paraphrase) 'I am told his anger was terrible'. Love that passive voice... If We know of no character besides Snape who could have told Dumbledore about this, but if it was him, Dumbledore missed an opportunity to tell Harry.

Likewise with the spy who warned of the pending attack on the Potters. It COULD be another person who will come out of the woodwork in Book 7. My money, though, is on Snape.

...Plus, wouldn't Dumbledore tell Harry if Snape had helped him like this?...No one said McGonagall was a legilimens -- staniw's point, I believe, was that Snape or Dumbledore could have taught her enough to, in turn, teach Harry. Plus, Harry's successfully managed to lie to Snape before -- so legilimency isn't a foolproof method of detection.Do we really have examples of Harry SUCCESSFULLY lying to Snape? I don't think so.

It seems Snape ALWAYS knows when Harry is lying. He may not be able to see PROOF that Harry is lying, but he certainly seems to believe that Harry routinely lies to him.

About McGonagll learning legilimency. I suppose they MAY have been able to teach her in time. They had about 2-1/2 to 3 weeks to do it. However, it seems to me that it may be considerably easier to teach occlumency than legilimency. IF legilimency was easy to do, everyone would learn how. And while McGonagal seems to be quite competent in her field - we've not seen any indications that she was particular talented outside of transfiguration.

I'm not saying she isn't - but we haven't been shown she is. We never see her doing spells or charms except transfiguration (that I recall - please correct me if I'm wrong someone!) We don't have any indication that she's a dueler (she didn't protect herself when she went after the aurors who came to take Hagrid), etc.

Occlumency, on the other hand, seems to be taught in exactly the same way as one teaches how to withstand Imperio. You just keep casting the spell until the student gets fed up enough to push it back at you. First by using anything he can, then by learning to use his mind only.

And it seems that one MUST be able to cast a STRONG legilimens (which someone NEW at it might not be capable of doing) - mostly to make it extremely obvious to the student, who has never experienced it before, that the spell is being cast, but also to get the student irrate enough about his mind being invaded that they will 'force' the caster out (exactly like Harry did with Imperio)

Truthfully, I think a better solution would have been to start Harry back during the summer before. We have SOME indications that Remus or Mad-Eye might be legilimens. Unfortuantely, come Christmas, they are no longer a suitable choice. Umbridge has too close of a watch on Harry to be able to bring in someone from outside.

Lastly, I think this was also one of Albus' emotional mistakes - not just because the two of them can't get along, but because I think Albus WANTED each to see some of the others' past. I think the occlumency lessons were partly about Albus hoping they'd learn to see how similar their backgrounds were. We MAY actually have SOME indication that Snape Does realize this.

While Snape is not exactly sweet to Harry in HBP (Snape? sweet? physical impossibility!) - he does treat him differently than in any previous book. I can't BELIEVE he let Harry get away with the 'You don't have to call me sir' line without a MASSIVE point deduction. He deducts points, but he was already deducting points because Harry was late to class and disrupting the lesson - there isn't an unreasonable amount of points deducted and there isn't even a detention given.

And while I'm not quite ready to call it the truth - SOMEONE told the Mad-Eye, Remus and Tonks that Harry's life at the Dursley's was none too nice. And Albus certainly hadn't done so before. I'm NOT saying that it was definitely Snape who did - but he's a possibility.

I don't think it was the Weasleys who did, even tho' they were the most likely to know what was up. I think that if they had known what was to happen beforehand, they would have stood with Mad-Eye, etc. waiting to tell the Dursley's off (instead of joining in once it was started). Harry certainly has tried to make sure not to let anything 'slip' to Remus or Sirius.

As for the 'Advance Guard', only Tonks had a chance to see the locks on the bedroom door - everyone else remained in the kitchen. So, Tonks would be my second choice for telling Mad-Eye and Remus. However - the locks weren't locked (and I STILL want to know WHO unlocked them! That would give us a help with this!), so for all Tonks would know, Harry put them up to keep his room locked while he was out - effectively preventing his relatives from getting into his 'magic' stuff

As to WHY Albus would not let Harry know about anything 'nice' Snape might do or wish to do for Harry - I think it's imperative that Harry NOT be thinking - 'oh there's Snape, he's on my side' when Harry and Voldy next meet. It would blow Snape's cover and any chance he has to cause a diversion (which to me is the ENTIRE point of the 'fake Albus' death' plan that went awry and ended in Snape having to actually 'kill' Albus instead.

...IF Snape has done much of use on the Voldemort front in his spying career, we have certainly not hear about it from Dumbledore at this point. (Of course, this COULD be because he has NOT done anything of any use...but I for one don't believe that.)

For example, in HBP "Horcruxes" Dumbledore is discussing the clues which led him to understand that the diary was a Horcrux. He describes Voldemort's anger when he learns his diary was destroyed, and tells Harry (I paraphrase) 'I am told his anger was terrible'. Love that passive voice... If We know of no character besides Snape who could have told Dumbledore about this, but if it was him, Dumbledore missed an opportunity to tell Harry.

Likewise with the spy who warned of the pending attack on the Potters. It COULD be another person who will come out of the woodwork in Book 7. My money, though, is on Snape.Add on that Snape was the probable source for the info that Voldy was after the prophecy orb the summer before Harry's 5th year. It seems quite obvious that Snape gave a BIG report in the meeting when Harry first arrives at #12.

People were gathered all around him - talking - as he tried to leave. He must have said SOMETHING of great interest - I doubt they all just wanted to talk to him because they think he's such a great conversationalist. Additionally, the kids saw blueprints being looked over (most probably looking for the best spot for someone to sit while guarding the door to the Dept. of Mysteries). And the guard duty starts right after this night.

Additionally - I see indications that Snape warned the Order that there might be an assasination attempt on the Muggle Prime Minister - I personally thing that THIS was the info he gave that got Vance killed. Seems to me that she was on guard duty since she was 'captured and killed' just around the corner from #10 Downing. Especially as there seems to have been an interupted Imperio (they called it a poorly done Imperio - but the guy tried to strangle 3 healers - seems to me that IF his instructions were to kill the PM, he was still trying). And of course, there had to have been someone else magical around to recognize the Imperio and call in St. Mungo's - sounds to me like the Order was watching #10.

No - there's eveidence that Snape IS giving info to Albus or the Order - but it is NEVER told to Harry that he does.

I am really sure that Snape is still on the good side and I hope most of the people here think the same(I havent read any of the posts before so sorry if I telling the same thing as s.b. else). There are a lot of things that prove that Snape is on the good side. First of all, lets see everything from above. Lets see Snape's character as a whole. Let's see all the books as a whole. J K Rowling always make us believe things that are not true for example

1)she made us think that Snape is the one who is trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone but that was not true;
2)she made us think that Sirius Black is a murderer, a traitor and a DeathEather but at the end of the book he turned out to be the good guy;
3)she made us think that Moody(Krouch Junior nct the true Moody) is an auror and a friend of Dumbledore but he was the one responsible for putting Harry Potter's name in the Goblet of fire and a number of terrible things;
4)she made us think that Sirius is captured in the Ministry of Magic but that was a lie made up by Voldemor.

Snape insultes Harry, he puts Harry down in front of every one of his classmates, he hates Harry from the bottom of his heart and he doesn't hides it, he is a DeathEather. Obviously Snape is one of the BAD guys. OBVIOUSLY!!! As I said Rowling is not the kind of author who writes obvious things. And I have already given examples of some of the false things which she made us believe but which turned out to be just the opposite.

So as a conclusion - Snape is still with us. He hasn't betraied neither Dumbledore, nor Harry.:p :tu:

J K Rowling always make us believe things that are not true for example

1)she made us think that Snape is the one who is trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone but that was not true;
2)she made us think that Sirius Black is a murderer, a traitor and a DeathEather but at the end of the book he turned out to be the good guy;
3)she made us think that Moody(Krouch Junior nct the true Moody) is an auror and a friend of Dumbledore but he was the one responsible for putting Harry Potter's name in the Goblet of fire and a number of terrible things;
4)she made us think that Sirius is captured in the Ministry of Magic but that was a lie made up by Voldemor.

Snape insultes Harry, he puts Harry down in front of every one of his classmates, he hates Harry from the bottom of his heart and he doesn't hides it, he is a DeathEather. Obviously Snape is one of the BAD guys. OBVIOUSLY!!! As I said Rowling is not the kind of author who writes obvious things. And I have already given examples of some of the false things which she made us believe but which turned out to be just the opposite.

So as a conclusion - Snape is still with us. He hasn't betraied neither Dumbledore, nor Harry.:p :tu:

:D Rather concise, I agree.
As for the Unbreakable Vow:
We have seen that spells, charms, potions, etc. have a tendency to pop up again in later books in important place and I think the UV will play a part in book 7.
I understand the misgivings some have regarding Dumbledore requesting the UV of Snape, and partially agree. However, Dumbledore is not such a fool as to believe someone (especially an accomplished occlumens) on a mere confession (as it was left at the end of bk 6). So I believe that there is definitely more to it.
Also, if he had already made an UV regarding Harry, would he have been so quick to agree to one regarding Draco--knowing their less that friendly relationship? What would happen if the UV's clashed--a Draco-Harry duel? Talk about moral confrontation!
Also, I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to demand a vow from his followers. ? . Can occlumency get you around an UV?? hmm...

I agree with everyone who thinks he's still good.;) :p

One of the biggest things is Snape's past-- he was bullied and for no good reason. Bullying is never okay...how can Harry learn that if Snape is really a baddie? Sirius and James's bullying of Snape would be justified in Harry's mind when bullying can never be justified, it's wrong, plain and simple. If he were to realize what Snape's been through (Which I think equals what Harry's been through.), he'd be able to feel more than just anger and hatred for him and he'd see that his father and godfather were wrong. I don't look for him to feel that way if Snape is proven to be nothing more than a lying murderer.:no:

On top of that, him being good adds more to the story. I feel very confident that he's still good.:agree:

Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape?
JKR: Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban.

I have been thinking about this quote for a couple of days. What does it mean in terms of Snape's goodness that he was not about to put on a turban? Does it mean that he would not put himself in a position in which he would be forced to do Lord Voldemort's bidding? I have been mulling it over but can't come up with a clear answer. Any ideas or theories?

Kala way:

I agree with you about the fact that things that are mentioned normally come back around. I thought of another possibility other than the Unb. Vow. What about an agreement Snape unknowingly entered into, sort of like what the members of the DA entered into? It might not have been SNEAK written across Snape's face, but something similar could certainly have happened to alert Dumbledore that Snape had crossed back over.

I finished the reread of OotP today, and have moved on to the HBP reread. Don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I thought of something when I was reading the Spinner's End chapter.

What if Dumbledore hired Snape on one condition. Since Harry's name was down in the book of future Hogwarts students, Snape had overheard part of the prophecy and betrayed the Potters, Dumbledore could have made Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to never harm Harry and look out for his [I]physical [I] well being. This could be the reason that Dumbledore has implicit faith in Snape. He literally cannot allow Harry to be in direct harms way.



I have been under that impression for quite some time. I think that Snape's sign of remorse and repentant attitude was an breakable vow. And I have not problem with Dumbledore making a vow that could result in death. In fact it may have been Snape who even suggested it. Now what is interesting is the vow made at Spinner's end. If you are right (and I think you are) then the vow with Narcissa must not have conflicted with the vow made with Dumbledore. This means that Snape's actions in book 6 were expected and planned.

Now Dumbledore also tells Harry in book 6 that he believes Snape has returned to the Good side but he never tells why. When Harry presses for a reason, "Dumbledore did not for a moment. He looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something (HBP ch. 25)" This has often been interpeted as Dumbledore trying to decide why he trusts Snape. I think it is dumbledore trying to decide whether or not to tell Harry why he trusts Snape.

Dumbledore wasn't weighing Snape's loyalty but whether to reveal a secret. A secret that is assisting Snape in keeping his true loyalty away from Voldemort. What if the secret is the unbreakable vow and it is being kept away not only by Snape occlumency but also by the Fidelius charm.

I have another idea about this. Snape was not given the DADA job so as not to fall back into the service of Voldemort. But we now know the position is cursed to the extent nobody gets to hold it for more than a year. Maybe Snape wasn't allowed the position because Dumbledore needed him at the school for much longer. Only when Snape's time at Hogwarts was coming to an end - a planned end - was he given the cursed postition. This suggests that Snape and Dumbledore have orchestrated much more of the happenings at Hogwarts during year 6 than is immediately apparent.

Do we really have examples of Harry SUCCESSFULLY lying to Snape? I don't think so.
I think it's more when Harry's telling the truth and Snape doesn't believe him. There are definitely situations in which Snape is less than sure, but, it's not a foolproof art, and Snape is never called a great legilimens.

While Snape is not exactly sweet to Harry in HBP (Snape? sweet? physical impossibility!) - he does treat him differently than in any previous book
Yeah, worse. I see what you mean on the, "sir" line, but what about the walk back to the castle? Harry had blood all over his face, so Snape must've known he was attacked somehow, and he just taunts him and docks points left and right. It wasn't like he had any DE kids around to keep up appearances for.

SOMEONE told the Mad-Eye, Remus and Tonks that Harry's life at the Dursley's was none too nice. ... I'm NOT saying that it was definitely Snape who did - but he's a possibility.
Interesting theory, but I think the Weasleys, Sirius, or Harry himself are more likely. Harry stayed at Headquarters twice, and many OP members stayed for dinner. If he didn't mention it, it's very likely that Fred, George, Ron, or Ginny would have in passing. But you're right -- Snape is a possibility, I just think a less likely one.

As to WHY Albus would not let Harry know about anything 'nice' Snape might do or wish to do for Harry - I think it's imperative that Harry NOT be thinking - 'oh there's Snape, he's on my side' when Harry and Voldy next meet.
Good point. But, he told Harry in OotP that Snape had deduced where he'd gone, sent the order after him, etc... and he told Harry when Snape saved him from the Gaunt ring curse, etc... so sometimes he does try to convince Harry of Snape's loyalty and helpfulness.

In any case, I just don't see that Snape had anything to do with Voldemort occluding Harry, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

"Dumbledore did not for a moment. He looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something (HBP ch. 25)" This has often been interpeted as Dumbledore trying to decide why he trusts Snape. I think it is dumbledore trying to decide whether or not to tell Harry why he trusts Snape.
:tu: Which is so intriguing... what on earth wouldn't he tell Harry?

I have been thinking about this quote for a couple of days. What does it mean in terms of Snape's goodness that he was not about to put on a turban? Does it mean that he would not put himself in a position in which he would be forced to do Lord Voldemort's bidding? I have been mulling it over but can't come up with a clear answer. Any ideas or theories?
I think she was just being funny... like you know, turbans just aren't in synq with Snape's fashion sense.

Bullying is never okay...how can Harry learn that if Snape is really a baddie? Sirius and James's bullying of Snape would be justified in Harry's mind when bullying can never be justified, it's wrong, plain and simple.
How does Snape being good make it better? You said bullying is never okay -- that means that it wouldn't be okay even if Snape grew up to be a vicious, evil murderer. By requiring that Snape be good for Harry to learn this lesson, it implies that it's only bad if you bully someone good. Wouldn't Harry learn an even better lesson if Snape were bad? Even if it were harder to learn?

....I see what you mean on the, "sir" line, but what about the walk back to the castle? Harry had blood all over his face, so Snape must've known he was attacked somehow, and he just taunts him and docks points left and right. It wasn't like he had any DE kids around to keep up appearances for.Several points on this:

1) Blood on the face - well Tonks didn't take care of it either. Add on that by the time they got to the gate it was so dark that Harry couldn't even SEE Tonks' face until Snape put the lantern up to her face. It's pitch dark out! And IF you look at someone with a lantern close-up, think about what kind of heavy shadows you get - the bloody nose 'could' have been hidden by the shadow the lantern casts. But lastly - Snape would know Draco has been bragging about hitting Harry. By NOT cleaning up the blood Snape IS 'keeping up appearances' with Draco.

2) Deducting points - Harry's late arrival is his own fault, even IF Draco had a hand in it. He arrives SO late that dessert is being served as he sits down. That means late enough that all the other kids have ridden the coaches to the castle (or taken the boats if they're first years), the sorting of approximately 40 kids has been done AND most of dinner is finished.

Harry must be close to an hour or even an hour and a half late. Remember the rest of the scenario - an entire summer of people being killed or 'disappeared' by Voldy and who is probably number one on Voldy's hit list? Harry. Add in that we're not positive that Snape was sure yet what Draco's task might be. I'm sure he had it narrowed down to 'kill Harry or Albus', but we're don't yet know if Snape is positive which it is yet. In fact - this MIGHT just be what tells Snape that Draco's task is obviously not to kill Harry, so it must be Albus.

And remember back to year 2, Harry was able to charm McGonangal out of taking points, but she was ready to do so. So, it would seem that taking points would be the 'usual' result of arriving to school late. Considering she took off 50 points when Harry was out after hours but safely INSIDE the school (taking Nornert up to the Astronomy Tower) in bk 1 and that arriving to school late is probably a MUCH worse offense (just based on all the hassle and worry it would cause) I don't find it at all surprising that Snape deducted points. I would think it was the usual procedure IF someone came to school late.

3) Snape is SILENT most of the way up to the door. Snape is usually only quiet when he's close to blowing a fuse. Silence for Snape is a really good indicator that he's LIVID. Additionally, Harry is also extremely angry. So angry that it's practically coming off him in heat waves. I find it impossible to believe that Snape is not aware of exactly how angry Harry was at the moment. Considering the vitrol Snape COULD have been dumping on Harry for that walk, I think Harry was getting off rather easy.

How does Snape being good make it better? You said bullying is never okay -- that means that it wouldn't be okay even if Snape grew up to be a vicious, evil murderer. By requiring that Snape be good for Harry to learn this lesson, it implies that it's only bad if you bully someone good. Wouldn't Harry learn an even better lesson if Snape were bad? Even if it were harder to learn?

Ah, I misunderstood you...:lol: Anyways, I said...

how can Harry learn that if Snape is really a baddie? Sirius and James's bullying of Snape would be justified in Harry's mind when bullying can never be justified, it's wrong, plain and simple. If he were to realize what Snape's been through (Which I think equals what Harry's been through.), he'd be able to feel more than just anger and hatred for him and he'd see that his father and godfather were wrong. I don't look for him to feel that way if Snape is proven to be nothing more than a lying murderer.

Please, pay close attention to what I said at the end.:) Let me better explain...I didn't the first time because I didn't think I'd need to...Harry clearly hates Snape. His hatred for him has only grown over the years and him killing Dumbledore only magnified his existing hatred. He hasn't shown even the tiniest drop of pity for him so how could you look at the current situation and say that Harry, who has shown immense bias, would be able to get over his hatred for Snape after all that's happened if all he turns out to be is a lying murderer? Show me one example of Harry's pity, forgiveness, or understanding from the sixth book...I don't think you can but I could show you quite a few examples of his hatred and distrust. He was suspicious of him all these years...if he turns out to be right, I don't see him saying to himself, "Well, I was right...he was nothing but a murderer but I still like him.":no:

Ok, I think that Snape has to be on the good side for a few reasons:

1) He saved Harry's life quite a few times. And yes, even though he says he did it to stay on Dumbledore's good side, where is the evidence to that? I mean in the first book, if Quirrel had killed Harry how would anyone be able to point out that Snape hadn't helped protect him?

2)I think it is simply ridiculous that Dumbledore would believe Snape when he said he was sorry Lilly and James were dead. No, I think that Harry is mistaken and that Snape did something else. I mean come on: Snape hated Sirius enough to send him to Azkaban again without a thought, and James was his best friend who had made his life even more of a hell, and Lilly was just a "mudblood".Why care if they die? He would have rejoiced if you ask me.

3) I think that Dumbledore and Snape were planning the whole death thing together. I'm not saying that they planned it out EXACTLY as it happened, but I think that they both agreed that Snape should kill Dumbledore. I mean Dumbledore never let Snape have the DADA job because it was cursed, and suddenly he gives him the job, no questions asked? And besides, before he died, Dumbledore just said "Severus, please...". He never finished the sentence. It might have been the qued line between them for Snape to kill him or something. I mean, Dumbledore probably knew he was gonna die, and if he knew about the Unbreakable Vow, he would have submitted to it to twaft (sp?) Voldemort, right?

Please, pay close attention to what I said at the end. Let me better explain...I didn't the first time because I didn't think I'd need to...Harry clearly hates Snape. His hatred for him has only grown over the years and him killing Dumbledore only magnified his existing hatred.
Okay, I understand now. I thought you were saying it was necessary to the lesson that Snape be good -- but you're just saying you don't expect Harry to learn it if he isn't. Well, I expect more of Harry, or rather I expect JKR will challenge him. It's not okay to bully someone like they did in SWM, even if they end up becoming a murderous Death Eater, 1. because you can't know what someone will become, and 2. publicly humiliating someone like that certainly doesn't do anything to stop them or make them a better person (unless, they're a bully in which case it might give them a sense of sympathy). And I think this particular lesson will be much, much more poignant if Snape is evil. But I guess we just disagree here in our expectations of Harry.

He hasn't shown even the tiniest drop of pity for him...

"What was making Harry feel so horrified and unhappy was not being shouted at or having jars thrown at him --- it was that he knew how it felt to be humiliated in the middle of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how Snape had felt as his father had taunted him..." -- OotP, p 650

"I just never thought I'd feel sorry for Snape." -- OotP, p 671

:D Just keeping things in perspective -- and, while we're on the subject, where the hell is Snape's pity for Harry? He knows perfectly well that Harry's been bullied horribly by his relatives, that his parents were murdered, that he's been traumatized and trapped an nearly killed by Voldemort repeatedly... in HBP, he knows that Harry just lost the closest thing to a parent he's ever known... so where's the pity, or at least, not taunting him about it?

...so how could you look at the current situation and say that Harry, who has shown immense bias, would be able to get over his hatred for Snape after all that's happened if all he turns out to be is a lying murderer?
Because I expect JKR to challenge Harry. I expect her to put Harry's goodness to the test.

Show me one example of Harry's pity, forgiveness, or understanding from the sixth book...I don't think you can but I could show you quite a few examples of his hatred and distrust.
Why would there be an example of Harry's pity, forgiveness, or understanding for Snape in the sixth book? Harry doesn't understand, and it's too soon to forgive (especially as Snape hasn't actually asked for forgiveness) and as for pity... why? What happened to Snape, that Harry actually knows of, meriting pity? And Harry has his reasons to distrust and hate Snape, but if Snape is good, Harry's going to have to deal with those anyway...

He was suspicious of him all these years...if he turns out to be right, I don't see him saying to himself, "Well, I was right...he was nothing but a murderer but I still like him."
I don't either. In fact, I don't see Harry saying to himself, "Well, I was wrong, but he was actually on our side, and now I like him," either. Harry and Snape will probably never like each other, any more than James & Snape, Sirius & Snape, or even Lupin & Snape will ever like each other. There's too much bad blood. Besides, why would you have to like someone in order to believe that bullying them is bad?

I don't actually think that Harry needs to learn a lesson about bullying. I think he knows already that bullying is bad - he's been a victim himself and his reaction to the Pensieve scene was horror at his father and Sirius' actions and pity for Snape.

Regarding Harry and forgiveness, even if he finds out that Snape is on the good side and didn't betray Dumbledore, a rock-solid fact remains that Snape bears a partial responsibility for the deaths of Harry's parents and Harry becoming a target for Voldemort. And though Snape showed remorse to Dumbledore, he didn't express it or ask for forgiveness from the person who suffered the most, and most directly, from his actions, namely Harry. All that time, Snape made all sorts of snide remarks about Harry's "celebrity", while knowing quite well the reasons behind Harry's fame and that he himself helped to bring it about. Harry may unfairly blame Snape for Sirius' death and he might not know the whole picture about Dumbledore's death, but Snape's guilt as far as Harry's parents go is undeniable and will probably be the biggest hurdle for Harry to overcome.

One of the biggest things is Snape's past-- he was bullied and for no good reason. Bullying is never okay...how can Harry learn that if Snape is really a baddie? Sirius and James's bullying of Snape would be justified in Harry's mind when bullying can never be justified, it's wrong, plain and simple. If he were to realize what Snape's been through (Which I think equals what Harry's been through.), he'd be able to feel more than just anger and hatred for him and he'd see that his father and godfather were wrong. I don't look for him to feel that way if Snape is proven to be nothing more than a lying murderer.:no:
I don’t think the bullying subject is going to give us an answer whether Snape is good or bad.

If JKR wants to make a point with bullying we have to face that the biggest bully in the books is Snape. I know there are lots of Snape fans out here who don’t want to face that and make all kind of complicated theories why in each case we see Snape bullying a student he actually is doing something else but that is not the impression JKR has given us for 6 books. She deliberately has made Snape a bully for the first 6 books.

If she makes Snape good the message in bullying terms is that it is all right to bully and abuse your position as a teacher as long as you are good. If Snape is bad she will give the message that it is OK to bully a bad person before he became bad. Since I don’t think JKR wants to send either message I don’t think that the purpose of Snape is to make a point about bullying.

JKR does care very much about bullying. That’s why it shows Snape so unsympathetic and that’s why she had her hero being disgusted with his father and his friend. But it won’t answer the question whether Snape is good or bad.

Before there are too many posts claiming Snape isn’t an abusive teacher who bullies I give these two quotes by JKR:

As a teacher, the "worst, shabbiest thing you can do" is to bully children (draws parallel to Snape). Conversations with JK Rowling, p.21

What about Snape?
JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. WBUR interview 1999

"What was making Harry feel so horrified and unhappy was not being shouted at or having jars thrown at him --- it was that he knew how it felt to be humiliated in the middle of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how Snape had felt as his father had taunted him..." -- OotP, p 650

"I just never thought I'd feel sorry for Snape." -- OotP, p 671

:D Just keeping things in perspective

Yes, the wrong perspective. I said from the sixth book, not the fifth. I'm already completely aware of that scene.;)

-- and, while we're on the subject, where the hell is Snape's pity for Harry?

I don't believe we're discussing Snape learning a lesson, we're discussing Harry, the hero, the main character, learning the lesson his father and godfather failed to learn. You seem to expect more from Snape than you do from Harry, why? Age, clearly, doesn't have much to do with things as Snape is obviously not a child but neither is Harry.

He knows perfectly well that Harry's been bullied horribly by his relatives, that his parents were murdered, that he's been traumatized and trapped an nearly killed by Voldemort repeatedly... in HBP, he knows that Harry just lost the closest thing to a parent he's ever known... so where's the pity, or at least, not taunting him about it?

We don't see things through Snape's eyes, we don't hear his inner thoughts or feel his emotions. Whose to say he doesn't feel something close to pity for him? Whose to say he hasn't felt regret or anything else along those lines? Everyone assumes, "Oh, Snape is mean and cold and emotionless." when we aren't even seeing things through his eyes. We don't know what any of the other characters are thinking or feeling at all times, why is Snape any different?


Because I expect JKR to challenge Harry. I expect her to put Harry's goodness to the test.

Then give me an example of how you think she'll do this. How could she make Harry's expectations of Snape be right and yet make him feel remorse for someone who has no good in them whatsoever?

Why would there be an example of Harry's pity, forgiveness, or understanding for Snape in the sixth book? Harry doesn't understand, and it's too soon to forgive (especially as Snape hasn't actually asked for forgiveness) and as for pity... why? What happened to Snape, that Harry actually knows of, meriting pity? And Harry has his reasons to distrust and hate Snape, but if Snape is good, Harry's going to have to deal with those anyway...

If Harry's so amazingly good, there should be something there, shouldn't there? If JK is going to put this so called goodness to the test, shouldn't it previously exist? You said it was too soon for him to forgive...it's too soon for Snape to forgive Harry for diving into his memories when he clearly wasn't supposed.

As for what happened to Snape that Harry should show pity for...please don't tell me you've forgotten Sirius and James's bullying of him, we were just talking about it.:lol: What reasons did he have, prior to this book, to distrust Snape? Please, tell me what it was that Snape did in the first book that made him so suspicious because all I remember is his outward appearance and his disliking of the hero. He was proven innocent that year, let me remind you.;)


I don't either. In fact, I don't see Harry saying to himself, "Well, I was wrong, but he was actually on our side, and now I like him," either. Harry and Snape will probably never like each other, any more than James & Snape, Sirius & Snape, or even Lupin & Snape will ever like each other. There's too much bad blood. Besides, why would you have to like someone in order to believe that bullying them is bad?

You wouldn't if you're looking through the eyes of Harry. We're not talking about them liking each other, we're talking about them getting over the past and learning a lesson they both have yet to grasp. If Harry thinks Snape is evil, his being bullied looks like it was justified because, as Sirius said, he was into the Dark Arts even as a child, he was never good to begin with. If Harry's biased opinion of him is wrong, he'll learn that you can't judge a book by it's cover and that his father and godfather, were, indeed, wrong.

Apparently, we're not going to agree on this.:rotfl:

OK has snape really done one truly EVIL thing ever...besides the dumbledore thing because we don't know if it was planned or whatever..but disregarding the dumbledore thing i mean hes been really rude and unfair and everything like that..but truly evil?

i dont think so...

but thats just me
i dont know it just seems whenever we thought snape has been evil before it turns out it was someone else

yeah

I don’t think the bullying subject is going to give us an answer whether Snape is good or bad.

That's just it-- you don't think it has anything to do with it while I don't think that particular plot point is all over with just yet.;)

If JKR wants to make a point with bullying we have to face that the biggest bully in the books is Snape. I know there are lots of Snape fans out here who don’t want to face that and make all kind of complicated theories why in each case we see Snape bullying a student he actually is doing something else but that is not the impression JKR has given us for 6 books. She deliberately has made Snape a bully for the first 6 books.

And I know there are a lot of Snape haters out there that think bullying equates "murdering liar" so there we have it.:lol:

If she makes Snape good the message in bullying terms is that it is all right to bully and abuse your position as a teacher as long as you are good. If Snape is bad she will give the message that it is OK to bully a bad person before he became bad. Since I don’t think JKR wants to send either message I don’t think that the purpose of Snape is to make a point about bullying.

I believe JK has already addressed Snape's abuse of power. She said that's part of life thus Dumbledore's allowing it to go on. Please don't tell me "murderer" is synonymous with "bully" in your mind.;)

JKR does care very much about bullying. That’s why it shows Snape so unsympathetic and that’s why she had her hero being disgusted with his father and his friend. But it won’t answer the question whether Snape is good or bad.

Again, this is what you think but, clearly, not everyone agrees as I don't. That, right there, is an assumption most people make when looking at this through Harry's eyes when he sees only half of what's going on-- "Snape is unsympathetic.":no:

Before there are too many posts claiming Snape isn’t an abusive teacher who bullies I give these two quotes by JKR:

I've already read those before.;) What are you trying to prove with them though? He's a bully so, naturally, he's evil?:huh: That's what I'm arguing against-- people taking Harry's view as fact and thinking, "Oh, anyone who hates the main character is evil, plain and simple!!!" because, as unbelievable as it is, it's highly possible that someone doesn't like the hero and things aren't always as they seem/black and white.:rotfl:

OK has snape really done one truly EVIL thing ever...besides the dumbledore thing because we don't know if it was planned or whatever..but disregarding the dumbledore thing i mean hes been really rude and unfair and everything like that..but truly evil?

i dont think so...

but thats just me
i dont know it just seems whenever we thought snape has been evil before it turns out it was someone else

yeah

:welcome:

You bring up a good point-- he's rude and unfair but has he really ever done something evil? Something we can look at and say, "Now there's no getting around it, that was definitely one evil act."?:lol: We, apparently, can't say that about Dumbledore's death or Snape's claims as there are still doubts so, as far as I know, there's nothing that proves, for a fact, that he is, indeed, evil.:agree:

One of the biggest things is Snape's past-- he was bullied and for no good reason. Bullying is never okay...how can Harry learn that if Snape is really a baddie? Sirius and James's bullying of Snape would be justified in Harry's mind when bullying can never be justified, it's wrong, plain and simple. If he were to realize what Snape's been through (Which I think equals what Harry's been through.), he'd be able to feel more than just anger and hatred for him and he'd see that his father and godfather were wrong. I don't look for him to feel that way if Snape is proven to be nothing more than a lying murderer.
DarkDays, did you read the editorial over on the Dev Sev thread on that? I loved it! And obviously, since you seem to have read it too (:clap:) I agree with everything that you said.

"Dumbledore did not for a moment. He looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something (HBP ch. 25)" This has often been interpeted as Dumbledore trying to decide why he trusts Snape. I think it is dumbledore trying to decide whether or not to tell Harry why he trusts Snape.
Which is so intriguing... what on earth wouldn't he tell Harry?
Why indeed? Dumbledore has said before, at the end of OotP I believe, that he was going to come clean and tell Harry everything. He OBVIOUSLY didn't, since he didn't tell Harry that Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy. I think Dumbledore let Harry believe the simple answer. I believe there is way more to the story of why Dumbledore trusted Snape. And I think that, as Dumbledore had deemed previously, Harry, for whatever reason, was not ready for that. Maybe that's also because even the Dark Lord himself has NO IDEA of the real reason the Dumbledore trusts Snape. In Spinner's End, doesn't Snape tell Bella and Narcissa that he spun Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse (I love the use of the word "spun" here...so fitting within the chapter)? This is Snape's cover story, and if he is truly on the good side, this information is potentially vital to keeping Snape in a position to help the Order. No one apart from Dumbledore in the Order knew what Snape had done: Dumbledore kept it from everyone.


Okay, I understand now. I thought you were saying it was necessary to the lesson that Snape be good -- but you're just saying you don't expect Harry to learn it if he isn't. Well, I expect more of Harry, or rather I expect JKR will challenge him. It's not okay to bully someone like they did in SWM, even if they end up becoming a murderous Death Eater, 1. because you can't know what someone will become, and 2. publicly humiliating someone like that certainly doesn't do anything to stop them or make them a better person (unless, they're a bully in which case it might give them a sense of sympathy). And I think this particular lesson will be much, much more poignant if Snape is evil. But I guess we just disagree here in our expectations of Harry.
Actually, there are interesting implications if you take the idea that Snape was bullied and Snape is now evil. Firstly, I would take this route in exploring this issue: bullying tends to leave marks far beyond the schoolyard days. It has lasting effects to a person's morale and self-image. If Snape was bullied because he was interested in the dark arts by the Marauders, it can be said that after so many years of being typecasted as a "dark arts lover" that he began to see himself in that light (bear with me here...I am using my sociology classes...). This is called the labeling theory: this means that in effect, a person begins to become what he is labeled and begins to identify with the label. The Marauders labeled Snape, he left Hogwarts and became the very thing that they had despised in him (even before it was truly there)...so he became a death eater as a result of the bullying he suffered at the hands of the Marauders. Later on, he hears the partial prophecy, tells Voldemort, who ends up going after the Potters and killing them. Snape continued to act in accordance to how he saw his own image, as a result of being labelled by the Marauders. So if Snape is truly evil, we could say that the Marauders directly influenced the person that he became, and thus James in a large part, by his bullying, led to his own demise because he drove Snape to become the person that would ultimately give the information to Voldemort that led to James' death. Wow....what an implication for the past, and for the results that bullying can lead to (in the extreme, of course). But that doesn't prove that Snape is STILL evil, just that at the time, he was (which we already knew).

I would argue that this shows that Snape has the great potential to be good. He saw himself as a particular person, and then Dumbledore came and showed him someone else. He never completely grew out of his old shell, but he finally managed to gain a new positive self-image. His old habits, however, like his bad behaviour toward students, are a lasting result of how he used to see himself.

Just keeping things in perspective -- and, while we're on the subject, where the hell is Snape's pity for Harry? He knows perfectly well that Harry's been bullied horribly by his relatives, that his parents were murdered, that he's been traumatized and trapped an nearly killed by Voldemort repeatedly... in HBP, he knows that Harry just lost the closest thing to a parent he's ever known... so where's the pity, or at least, not taunting him about it?

I don't either. In fact, I don't see Harry saying to himself, "Well, I was wrong, but he was actually on our side, and now I like him," either. Harry and Snape will probably never like each other, any more than James & Snape, Sirius & Snape, or even Lupin & Snape will ever like each other. There's too much bad blood. Besides, why would you have to like someone in order to believe that bullying them is bad?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think either has much sympathy for the other, but I think that Snape remembers what he has learned of Harry. Harry, as you have proven, has had some sympathy for Snape. But what has he done with it? He forgets about it and never thinks about it again. It's like he can't make the connection between himself and Snape and see their similarities, nor can he see the link between the boy that was taunted by Harry's own father and how that played a role in who Snape has become today. I know that Harry is young, but I think that this is essential in defeating Voldemort: Harry has even shown empathy for Voldemort. I think that to overcome the greatest hardships of his life, Harry is going to have to learn that sympathy, forgiveness and understanding matter, and without those, he can never fully move on with his life. Harry is full of love, but he is also currently filled with a lot of anger and hate.

I don’t think the bullying subject is going to give us an answer whether Snape is good or bad.
That's just it-- you don't think it has anything to do with it while I don't think that particular plot point is all over with just yet.
I also think that the bullying plays a huge role in what has happened and what must come (as noted by my entire post :) )

The Marauders labeled Snape, he left Hogwarts and became the very thing that they had despised in him (even before it was truly there)...so he became a death eater as a result of the bullying he suffered at the hands of the Marauders.
:tu: That's an excellent theory -- and I think it's very likely that there will be some implications of that -- the idea that how you treat people has a lasting effect on them, and that not only good people are hurt.

It's like he can't make the connection between himself and Snape and see their similarities, nor can he see the link between the boy that was taunted by Harry's own father and how that played a role in who Snape has become today.
He did though, initially. His first reaction to SWM was that Snape was like him, that Snape, like him, had been bullied and humiliated in front of a crowd of on-lookers. This realization was stunted though by a mixture of Snape's reaction and, primarily, Sirius' death. Harry loved Sirius, even though he was horrified at what Sirius was like as a teenager, and so when Sirius -- the closest thing to a parent he'd ever known-- died, his reaction was (very normally) to forget everything bad about Sirius. When Dumbledore criticizes Sirius' treatment of Kreacher --which Harry himself had been uneasy about earlier in the book--, Harry's reaction is that Dumbledore hadn't understood Sirius at all. How brave he was, how much he suffered. Of course Harry's angry at anyone who hated Sirius, and of course, feeling as guilty as he does for going to the ministry, he wants to blame anyone but himself.

As for the link between how Snape was treated by James and how he grew up -- I think the reason Harry never connected those two is because he never let mistreatment or bullying truly determine who he is. Maybe he has a higher threshhold for it or a stronger personality -- Dumbledore certainly thinks its unusual that a boy who's suffered as much as he has, who's been raised as unloved and unwanted as he was, can still love so much. So maybe this is part of that.

I think that to overcome the greatest hardships of his life, Harry is going to have to learn that sympathy, forgiveness and understanding matter, and without those, he can never fully move on with his life. Harry is full of love, but he is also currently filled with a lot of anger and hate.
:clap: I completely agree.

He did though, initially. His first reaction to SWM was that Snape was like him, that Snape, like him, had been bullied and humiliated in front of a crowd of on-lookers. This realization was stunted though by a mixture of Snape's reaction and, primarily, Sirius' death. Harry loved Sirius, even though he was horrified at what Sirius was like as a teenager, and so when Sirius -- the closest thing to a parent he'd ever known-- died, his reaction was (very normally) to forget everything bad about Sirius. When Dumbledore criticizes Sirius' treatment of Kreacher --which Harry himself had been uneasy about earlier in the book--, Harry's reaction is that Dumbledore hadn't understood Sirius at all. How brave he was, how much he suffered. Of course Harry's angry at anyone who hated Sirius, and of course, feeling as guilty as he does for going to the ministry, he wants to blame anyone but himself.

As for the link between how Snape was treated by James and how he grew up -- I think the reason Harry never connected those two is because he never let mistreatment or bullying truly determine who he is. Maybe he has a higher threshhold for it or a stronger personality -- Dumbledore certainly thinks its unusual that a boy who's suffered as much as he has, who's been raised as unloved and unwanted as he was, can still love so much. So maybe this is part of that.

You do make a very good point, and I completely agree with your assessment in the first paragraph. Harry did initially make that connection between himself and Snape. I think it is just a shame that Sirius had to die when he did, because his death solidified Harry's idolotry of Sirius and the horrible image he had of Snape who hated Sirius (never mind that Sirius hated Snape and could never begin to treat Snape as an adult or an equal). You are completely right that Harry lashes out at Dumbledore just as he lashes out at Snape. I think the difference, though, is he is williing to hear Dumbledore out (albeit, Snape never exactly tries to explain anything to Harry....). This isn't the only instance where Harry sees Snape do something that shocks him and later Harry loses sight of what he just saw...

I also agree with the fact that Harry has never let the bullying affect who he became. I am amazed at how he turned out after 10 years at the Dursleys'. But at Hogwarts, I think the difference is he has a support system. He has friends to stand up for him and be enraged for him. Snape appears quite alone in all of the memories we see of him. He has no one to stand by him and tell him the way others were treating him was unjustified. I'd definitely say that bullying would affect me differently if I were all alone as opposed to having friends to support me no matter what. The isolation of Snape, in my opinion, led to Snape's negative reaction to bullying, and I think this explains the differences in how they internalized the bullying they suffered.

...I also agree with the fact that Harry has never let the bullying affect who he became. I am amazed at how he turned out after 10 years at the Dursleys'. But at Hogwarts, I think the difference is he has a support system. He has friends to stand up for him and be enraged for him. Snape appears quite alone in all of the memories we see of him. He has no one to stand by him and tell him the way others were treating him was unjustified. I'd definitely say that bullying would affect me differently if I were all alone as opposed to having friends to support me no matter what. The isolation of Snape, in my opinion, led to Snape's negative reaction to bullying, and I think this explains the differences in how they internalized the bullying they suffered.I think part of Harry turning out relatively well is also about Lily's protection. Albus discussed it as if it was a physical manifestation in Harry's very 'skin' back in bk1/PS/SS. IF Harry has had Lily's love in his body for all those years pre-Hogwarts, he may have had a bit of extra protection against the effects of bullying.

Additionally, IF it turns out Snape came from an abusive family (a good possibility, but not yet canon) then Harry has the 'slight' good fortune that at least it isn't his own parent treating him as the Dursleys do. He can still have a decent private belief that if only his parents had lived his life would have been wonderful. IF Tobias WAS abusive, then Snape could not lie to himself that things could have been better.

If Snape was bullied because he was interested in the dark arts by the Marauders, it can be said that after so many years of being typecasted as a "dark arts lover" that he began to see himself in that light (bear with me here...I am using my sociology classes...). This is called the labeling theory: this means that in effect, a person begins to become what he is labeled and begins to identify with the label. The Marauders labeled Snape, he left Hogwarts and became the very thing that they had despised in him (even before it was truly there)...so he became a death eater as a result of the bullying he suffered at the hands of the Marauders.

To be honest, I don't buy this sort of thinking. I think it lets Snape off the hook too easily and makes him look somehow less responsible for the choice he made in his life that was 100% his choice. I think there's a huge wide gulf between, a) being interested in Dark Arts and b) joining an inner tatooed circle of an evil Dark Wizard and his terrorist organisation who kill and torture people and think that getting the world rid of muggle-borns is a jolly good idea. In that respect, Snape won't get a single drop of sympathy from me.

I think Snape is good. Furthermore, i believe that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him on top of the tower.

Before Snape appears on top of the tower Dumbledore is buying time by bantering with Draco and the others, but when Snape appears there is no shocked surprise on Dumbledore's part that Snape is with the Death Eaters, likewise there is no speech from Snape telling Dumbledore what an old fool he has been to trust him, etc. Instead, as is written, for the first time Dumbledore is pleading. It's my belief that whatever the green liquid was that Dumbledore drank wasn't killing him, but was turning him evil. I think him and Snape had an agreement. I know Snape had made a blood pact with Draco's mum to help him in his task, so who's to refute that the reason Dumbledore trusts him so completely is that they have made a blood pact between them, or even that maybe in some way they could be related.

Also, there is the fact that Snape is revealed as a bad guy at the beginning of the book. Now, it may be my ignorance, maybe not, but it seems to be an unwritten rule for authors that you do not reveal the bad guy in a book until near the end. Especially in the case of the Harry Potter books, where it is an ongoing theme through every book, of mystery and concealing bad guys and reasons for doing things until near the end. It just seems impossible to me that Rowling would reveal Snape to be actually bad, something which if i'm not mistaken is of huge significance in the big scheme of things, at the beginning of the book, and continue that right the way through the book. I think that in book seven we obviously will find out why Dumbledore trusted Snape totally, and we will also see Snape become alot more humane, as i think he and Peter Pettigrew will have a big part to play in destroying Voldemort. Pettigrew because in POA Dumbledore says to Harry, quote:-

Dumbledore- "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt. When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them ... and i'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of of Harry Potter."

Harry- "I don't want a bond with Pettigrew! He betrayed my parents!"

Dumbledore- "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me ... the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life."

Also i believe Draco will kill his father and come good, as he showed in HBP that he couldn't really do what he was asked to do, and that he was in fear of Voldemort, and showed that he really is a bit of a wimp, as everyone who reads the books already knows he is.

Also, i reckon Crookshanks could well be an animagus, and could become hugely important to book seven. I know he hasn't shown himself as anything other than a cat at the moment, but he just seems too clever to just be a cat. And i have a suspicion that Harry could be the final horcrux.

Also, i reckon Crookshanks could well be an animagus, and could become hugely important to book seven. I know he hasn't shown himself as anything other than a cat at the moment, but he just seems too clever to just be a cat. And i have a suspicion that Harry could be the final horcrux.

If I'm not mistaken, JKR has confirmed on several occasions that Crookshanks is NOT an animagus. Though, she has said she is a special type of animal. I never looked that up in the fantastic creatures book. Does anyone know what people have figured out regarding crookshanks? I'd like to know.

I think part of Harry turning out relatively well is also about Lily's protection. Albus discussed it as if it was a physical manifestation in Harry's very 'skin' back in bk1/PS/SS. IF Harry has had Lily's love in his body for all those years pre-Hogwarts, he may have had a bit of extra protection against the effects of bullying.

Additionally, IF it turns out Snape came from an abusive family (a good possibility, but not yet canon) then Harry has the 'slight' good fortune that at least it isn't his own parent treating him as the Dursleys do. He can still have a decent private belief that if only his parents had lived his life would have been wonderful. IF Tobias WAS abusive, then Snape could not lie to himself that things could have been better.
Interesting idea...I wonder how much of Lily's protection really did play into that as Harry was growing up. As for Snape, I do agree with you. Harry had a fantasy world; there was nothing like that for Snape.

To be honest, I don't buy this sort of thinking. I think it lets Snape off the hook too easily and makes him look somehow less responsible for the choice he made in his life that was 100% his choice. I think there's a huge wide gulf between, a) being interested in Dark Arts and b) joining an inner tatooed circle of an evil Dark Wizard and his terrorist organisation who kill and torture people and think that getting the world rid of muggle-borns is a jolly good idea. In that respect, Snape won't get a single drop of sympathy from me.
Well, in that case you don't buy one of the major leading theories of criminology :p (and don't get me wrong, there are tons of criminologists who don't agree with this and research has shown various results in this regard, based on constants and control groups...etc....but I'll spare you the boring part). And I disagree that this theory makes Snape less reprehensible. He is still accountable--this theory just provides insight into maybe why he became who he did. Yes, he still had a choice, but as I am personally in the belief that nuture plays a larger role in who we become than nature, I tend to believe that what happened to Snape (the bullying he received, being isolated--no friends, being a bit of an oddball, having what appears to be a bad family life) directly influenced his self-image, who he became and later choices that he made AS A RESULT of his past experiences. Saying that bullying shaped Snape never means that he is not accountable for his own choices.

I personally wil always feel sorry for the children that become the horrors of what we often see in society today--the ones we lose to the legal system, the ones that are victims of terrorism, the ones that lose their innocence way too earlier (much like Harry). I am only going slightly off topic with this because maybe you have never had to think like this (I don't know...you could have...but I am just going with your response and such). There are people who grow up in environments where there are different sets of rules, norms and social acceptabilities. They do not live by the same laws and morals that I myself grew up with. They learn that violence, terror, or whatever, is the answer to problems. They internalize these notions and do not understand the normal rules of conduct that society demands. These are the people that are caught up in, for example, gang wars or drug deals (related to Harry Potter...cliques, divisions between houses, even divisions between muggle-borns and pureblood fanatics). These people are who they are because it was how they were raised to be.

Look at Draco, for example. Why does he believe muggle-borns are "mudbloods"? Is it because he has gone out, met them and decided they are worthless? No, it is a preconceived notion that he learned from birth. This works both ways into what I think about Snape: people go through experiences that influence the choices they make. His personal experiences determined the types of choices he would have to make, and even more, determined how he would view each individual choice. Yes, the choices he made are still wrong to us, but to him, they were considered acceptable, normal, even necessary for survival (and his opinion if you believe in Good!Snape changed...). So I think you missed my point by assuming that I said this lets Snape off the hook. Instead, it puts everyone "on the hook" to realize that actions do have consequences and so does bullying.

p.s. sorry for relaying half of my "theories of crime" notes back on you--and I think I wandered a bit off topic :shrug:

If I'm not mistaken, JKR has confirmed on several occasions that Crookshanks is NOT an animagus. Though, she has said she is a special type of animal. I never looked that up in the fantastic creatures book. Does anyone know what people have figured out regarding crookshanks? I'd like to know.

It's an old and verified story. Crookshanks is a Kneezle. You can find much information online. In short, (if I remember well), Kneezles are "cats" only that they are also very inteligent, loyal, and good in finding hidden things or so.

Yes, he still had a choice, but as I am personally in the belief that nuture plays a larger role in who we become than nature, I tend to believe that what happened to Snape (the bullying he received, being isolated--no friends, being a bit of an oddball, having what appears to be a bad family life) directly influenced his self-image, who he became and later choices that he made AS A RESULT of his past experiences. Saying that bullying shaped Snape never means that he is not accountable for his own choices.


I wonder if you embrace the ancient Greek idea about choice... There, you had full responsibility of your choices, but on the other hand everything was predetermined by fate. The Oracle had told you you'd do so, and you did your best to avoid it, but it was fate... You couldn't. And then since you did the bad deed, gods would punish you :)

I am Greek, but I never liked this idea... For Snape, you say that his past may explain why he grew up so bitter and nasty. He is accountable for being nasty, and if nastiness were a crime, you'd probably feel he deserves to go to jail. However, Snape is an adult and he has a choice. Perhaps it is too much Dr. Phil influence in me, but Snape at some point in his adult life should decide if he likes himself and his actions, and if he doesn't he should simply choose another (less nasty) path. Dr. Phil keeps on telling us (bragging?) how he had the abusive alcoholic fatehr, and how he made the choice to become a better person, not a bitter bald grumpy guy.

Snape feels justified to lash on an 11 year old boy, and the best reason he probably has is because this boy is the son of a dead guy he hated. Snape grabbed the chance to tease Tonks because she is tortured with unanswered love, and his ... compassion shows by telling her that her Patronus is weak (isn't this the point where the book says that the malice in his voice was unmistakeable?).

In short, Snape makes bad choices when it comes to character. Upbringing can really screw you up, but the point is, you always have a choice to change what you do not like. It seems that Snape actually enjoys swimming in sweet bitterness. I acknowledge that all the discussion about the effects of bullying (here and in DevSev) is probably accurate, but it is not a sufficient reason for all of us to go "aaah... poor boy... he got so tortured when he was growing up, that we can sympathise".

Now, the subject of this thread is if he is or will come back to the good side. Defining this "good side" as the side that actively fights against Voldemort (why is a guy who just wishes Voldemort out but doesn't lift a finger a bad guy???), then neither his being bullied, nor his nastiness play a role. You can be a real jerk and still fight against a tyrant. My guess is that Snape is on the good side. I know arguments for both sides, but I simply trust Dumbledore. I have more arguments on this, but I will probably just be repeating things that have been said before.

My point is: why delve so much (in this thread) if and how much Snape suffered until the age of 17? Even if he is a nasty piece of art, he can still be in the good side (defined as above...) This does not make him a good guy though. He is still a bully of weaker people than him -students that he can order around, and people so much in love that they are losing their born-with powers. If it is natural/expected/well-written/choice or whatever to be a bully is beyond the point (of the side he may fight for) I think. I think in DevSev some of you people did an excellent job analysing this, but please let's try here to only form an opinion on the side he is/will be.

I wonder if you embrace the ancient Greek idea about choice... There, you had full responsibility of your choices, but on the other hand everything was predetermined by fate. The Oracle had told you you'd do so, and you did your best to avoid it, but it was fate... You couldn't. And then since you did the bad deed, gods would punish you :)
:no: I actually hate this idea--the idea that we don't have control over any of our actions, that our "choices" are actually fulfilling our fate (I've gotten into a discussion about this in a prophecy thread....oh I hate this idea!). So no, I do not like that ancient Greek idea (like the whole Oedipus complex...).

I am Greek, but I never liked this idea... For Snape, you say that his past may explain why he grew up so bitter and nasty. He is accountable for being nasty, and if nastiness were a crime, you'd probably feel he deserves to go to jail. However, Snape is an adult and he has a choice.
Do you really not agree that your past has in part shaped who you are? I know perfectly well the things in my past that have had a HUGE effect on who I have become. And since this is SWM, in effect, I'd say this memory has had a HUGE effect on who he became.

Perhaps it is too much Dr. Phil influence in me, but Snape at some point in his adult life should decide if he likes himself and his actions, and if he doesn't he should simply choose another (less nasty) path. Dr. Phil keeps on telling us (bragging?) how he had the abusive alcoholic fatehr, and how he made the choice to become a better person, not a bitter bald grumpy guy.
Yes, too much Dr. Phil--lol, just kidding, I watch him too. Yes, but in that instance, Dr. Phil made a choice to become a better person...but you can't look at one example and say that's the norm. The norm is, based on research, that people who come from abusive backgrounds are more likely themselves to be abusive as adults...that's taking the LARGER picture into account, not just one instance. People that transcend their backgrounds are the minority, not the norm....yet, we hear about them because we like these stories: they provide hope.

Snape feels justified to lash on an 11 year old boy, and the best reason he probably has is because this boy is the son of a dead guy he hated. Snape grabbed the chance to tease Tonks because she is tortured with unanswered love, and his ... compassion shows by telling her that her Patronus is weak (isn't this the point where the book says that the malice in his voice was unmistakeable?).
I'm not sure I get your point here.... :huh:

In short, Snape makes bad choices when it comes to character. Upbringing can really screw you up, but the point is, you always have a choice to change what you do not like. It seems that Snape actually enjoys swimming in sweet bitterness. I acknowledge that all the discussion about the effects of bullying (here and in DevSev) is probably accurate, but it is not a sufficient reason for all of us to go "aaah... poor boy... he got so tortured when he was growing up, that we can sympathise".
I hardly think that I am saying "poor boy." I think I said I feel sympathy for what could have been in all of the people that can't escape their past. Snape can't seem to escape his past...like you point out, he is wallowing in his bitterness. But this doesn't mean I can't say I wish things had turned out differently.

then neither his being bullied, nor his nastiness play a role.
but please let's try here to only form an opinion on the side he is/will be.

Well, I guess I feel that understanding Snape's past helps to explain who he is in the present...thus helps to explain if he is good or not, thus it is well within the realm of this thread topic, in my opinion :).

Perhaps it is too much Dr. Phil influence in me, but Snape at some point in his adult life should decide if he likes himself and his actions, and if he doesn't he should simply choose another (less nasty) path. Dr. Phil keeps on telling us (bragging?) how he had the abusive alcoholic fatehr, and how he made the choice to become a better person, not a bitter bald grumpy guy.
Yes, too much Dr. Phil--lol, just kidding, I watch him too. Yes, but in that instance, Dr. Phil made a choice to become a better person...but you can't look at one example and say that's the norm. The norm is, based on research, that people who come from abusive backgrounds are more likely themselves to be abusive as adults...that's taking the LARGER picture into account, not just one instance. People that transcend their backgrounds are the minority, not the norm....yet, we hear about them because we like these stories: they provide hope.

I do think that perhaps Snape has had his Dr. Phil moment, though. He decided this business of swearing eternal loyalty to a Dark Lord really had to go...he'll work on his classroom demeanor later.;) I rather doubt Dr. Phil's early mistakes in life were as serious as Snape's.

The norm is, based on research, that people who come from abusive backgrounds are more likely themselves to be abusive as adults... People that transcend their backgrounds are the minority, not the norm....
So? Does it matter how many people do it? The fact that anyone does proves that they're able to, so -- while some people may have a disadvantage, a harder struggle cut out for them -- it's still their choice, and still their fault or credit what they themselves do and become.

I also agree with the fact that Harry has never let the bullying affect who he became. I am amazed at how he turned out after 10 years at the Dursleys'. But at Hogwarts, I think the difference is he has a support system. He has friends to stand up for him and be enraged for him. Snape appears quite alone in all of the memories we see of him. He has no one to stand by him and tell him the way others were treating him was unjustified. I'd definitely say that bullying would affect me differently if I were all alone as opposed to having friends to support me no matter what. The isolation of Snape, in my opinion, led to Snape's negative reaction to bullying, and I think this explains the differences in how they internalized the bullying they suffered.
That makes sense, but Harry WAS isolated for the 10 years pre-Hogwarts, utterly and completely. Dudley's gang beat up people for daring to even pick him not-last for sports -- he was DEFINITELY not allowed to have friends of his own, or even people being nice to him. He had his cruel, unloving, abusive relatives and the unpleasant cat-obsessed lady down the street and that was it.

And we know from Sirius that Snape wasn't entirely friendless. Even if they weren't actually close, he definitely had a gang he hung around with -- so the few memories we've seen of his (I think about three) might've been isolated incidents.

Look at Draco, for example. Why does he believe muggle-borns are "mudbloods"? Is it because he has gone out, met them and decided they are worthless? No, it is a preconceived notion that he learned from birth.
Yeah, but Sirius was raised with the same mindset and he didn't go into it. So, sure, Draco's parents raised him badly, but it was his decision to believe everything they said and to hold to it even when he had evidence to the contrary. He could have seen Hermione and thought, "hey that girl's not dumb -- maybe my father's wrong about this." He didn't though. He lied to himself and held to his parents' worst beliefs and made bad decisions.

So I think it does come down to just your choices and and how you react to it.

...And we know from Sirius that Snape wasn't entirely friendless. Even if they weren't actually close, he definitely had a gang he hung around with -- so the few memories we've seen of his (I think about three) might've been isolated incidents....Okay - this is a bit off-topic, but I feel I should speak up since the question of whether Snape had friends seems to be important to the current discussion.

The 'gang' of Slytherins that Sirius mentioned seems to me to be another example of how Sirius tends to decide something based on his gut instinct and THEN go look for 'proof' that he's right. Another instance was that Sirius never mentioned the idea that Snape was 'dark' until after he knew Snape had been a Death Eater.

But as to that 'gang' - one of his examples as part of that group was Bella. ('The Lestranges, a married couple who went to Azkaban' - paraphrased). Well, besides the point that Sirius doesn't mention that HE's actually her cousin IF we sit down and figure out timeline (based on Tonks' age and so Andromeda's age and the fact that Bella would still be older), Bella was probably only at Hogwarts for Snape's first year (at which point she was a 7th year). Yet, she's one of the first of this 'gang' that Sirius mentions. Presumably her husband is relatively close to her age (maybe not, but MORE than likely he wasn't a firstie with Snape).

We also know that these two were purebloods and since we know of the existence of the Black tapestry, we can pretty much assume that the families they came from probably knew ALL the pureblood names. Yet Snape has a muggle name.

So, which is more likely? That Sirius was telling the FULL truth - that Snape was surrounded by some gang of friends who were upperclassmen and pureblood purists during his 1st year of school (and maybe another year or two if the others are younger than Bella), something we've only been told by Sirius who hated Snape (purely subjective 'proof').

OR that Snape didn't really HAVE friends (at least in his own year) as evidenced in the pensieve (objective according to JKR) - he didn't even attempt to talk to anyone during the break between tests - even Hermione who was exceptionally worried about her test answers still spoke to Harry and Ron

OR that Snape didn't really HAVE friends (at least in his own year) as evidenced in the pensieve (objective according to JKR) - he didn't even attempt to talk to anyone during the break between tests - even Hermione who was exceptionally worried about her test answers still spoke to Harry and Ron
But that was such a small period of time. And being such a intellectual purist that he is, it's not that weird that he'd want to go over his test alone first. ESPECIALLY if most of his friends were in different years and weren't taking their O.W.L.s then. I'm not saying he definitely had friends, but I just think we don't have nearly enough evidence to say he didn't with any certainty.

PLUS, I totally agree that Sirius is not exactly impartial when it comes to Snape (or vice-versa), but if Snape were friendless or a loner, Sirius wouldn't hesitate to say so. He wouldn't make up a gang out of thin air if Snape didn't hang around with them -- but, not being in Slytherin or particularly interested in Snape's social life, I doubt he would have memorized all their names well. Bellatrix probably stuck out to him because she WAS his cousin and a 7th year... unless it's just JKR not liking math, which is plausible.

Anyway, my point was just that isolation alone can't be the defining factor in their different reactions to bullying because Harry WAS isolated for those first 10 years at the Dursleys, almost as completely as a boy can be, and he still didn't let it get to him in the sense that started this whole conversation.

Anyway, I still see your point -- I don't know how important the gang of Slytherins could be, because I doubt it was very close friendships. I just don't see Snape, in general, opening up, and none of these DEs seem like the type.

So? Does it matter how many people do it? The fact that anyone does proves that they're able to, so -- while some people may have a disadvantage, a harder struggle cut out for them -- it's still their choice, and still their fault or credit what they themselves do and become.
Yes, the numbers mater, because I am talking likelihood of a certain event occuring. I think you guys are missing my point, I am NOT saying it's not about choices. I am saying that the past AFFECTS the choices we make. If you put two people in the exact same situation, they will react differently to it because of past experiences. Furthermore, given a set of choices, they may choose the same choice, but it will be for different reasons, based on their background and their future interests. It doesn't excuse the choices people make, just helps to explain them. I guess I am just more interested in why people become who they are and you guys are more interested in their present character. It's just a difference of where we are focusing our efforts, that's all.


That makes sense, but Harry WAS isolated for the 10 years pre-Hogwarts, utterly and completely. Dudley's gang beat up people for daring to even pick him not-last for sports -- he was DEFINITELY not allowed to have friends of his own, or even people being nice to him. He had his cruel, unloving, abusive relatives and the unpleasant cat-obsessed lady down the street and that was it.
Harry IS an exception to the rule. I believe that Harry's case is very rare. And yes, he transcended this (which is where hwyla's' interesting notion of whether or not Lily's protection protected him as he grew up at the Dursleys' and somehow made him stronger comes into play.)

Yeah, but Sirius was raised with the same mindset and he didn't go into it. So, sure, Draco's parents raised him badly, but it was his decision to believe everything they said and to hold to it even when he had evidence to the contrary. He could have seen Hermione and thought, "hey that girl's not dumb -- maybe my father's wrong about this." He didn't though. He lied to himself and held to his parents' worst beliefs and made bad decisions.
Again, let's look at how many people in this world are prejudice. Where does this stem from? It's learned behavior. Yes, many people can eventually learn that it's NOT true, but as for Malfoy, he is surrounded by other who constantly validate what he thinks. Sirius, however, was in Gryffindor, where others validated a different set of norms.

So I think it does come down to just your choices and and how you react to it.
Then we are in complete agreement. I think you guys think I am saying something completely different that what I mean. I am trying to understand how the past helps to explain who Snape is, not justify or condone the choices he has made.

In justification of hpfan's suggestion that how people treat someone can have reprecussions I think we can look to the books themselves. I DO think part of what JKR is telling us is that EVEN when we think we're the 'good guys' we can harm others.

There are several examples of things done by people on the 'good' side doing something that had consequences. If the twins had never pushed Montague into a broken vanishing cabinet, Draco would not have thought of that way to let the Death Eaters into Hogwarts. It's something Draco overheard Hermione talking about that gave him the idea for the poisoned mead. It's Hermione's charmed coins from the previous year that enabled Draco to stay in contact with Rosemerta. It's because Remus gave the Marauders Map back to Harry (instead of giving it to Albus) that BartyJr wasn't discovered. None of the 'good' people thought they were doing anything 'wrong' (altho' I find the twins' use of the vanishing cabinet questionable), but their actions led to consequences.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if JKR has the Marauders' bullying (and espceially the werewolf incident) heavily affect Snape and his choices. Especially since we don't yet know why it was his worst memory. For all we know, he failed the practical DADA after that and that affected his getting a job later on. I'm not saying that's the truth - only that we don't KNOW yet.

Finally, we have Albus (who espouses the importance of CHOICES) referring to Kreacher as being what he is because that's what wizards MADE him. Part of those choices we need to remember are that the Marauders CHOSE to pick on Snape that day because Sirius was bored and beginning to be a bit nasty to his own friends. That's about CHOICE, too.

So I think it does come down to just your choices and and how you react to it.
People certainly are responsible for their choices and actions, but sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. People who have been bullied or abused don't become bullies or abusers themselves simply because they are bored and have nothing better to do with themselves. That is their way of dealing with a trauma.

I think the point was that this is normal, if not ideal or excuseable. The emotional state of an individual, and the intent and motivation behind their acts have to be taken into consideration. Saying that someone should know better is oversimplifying the problem. Not everyone can change the way that they think and feel. Even if an individual does recognize that they have a problem, they may not know how to go about correcting that problem. People who have been abused also have shame, guilt, and trust issues, so asking someone for help is often excuriciating for them. It shouldn't be held against an indivdual if they are unable to overcome an emotional trauma on their own.



Yes, the numbers mater, because I am talking likelihood of a certain event occuring. I think you guys are missing my point, I am NOT saying it's not about choices. I am saying that the past AFFECTS the choices we make. If you put two people in the exact same situation, they will react differently to it because of past experiences. Furthermore, given a set of choices, they may choose the same choice, but it will be for different reasons, based on their background and their future interests. It doesn't excuse the choices people make, just helps to explain them. I guess I am just more interested in why people become who they are and you guys are more interested in their present character. It's just a difference of where we are focusing our efforts, that's all.
:tu: Our past matters immensely. It is what makes us who we are. It determines how we see ourselves, others, and the world, which we use to make decisions. If someone has been abused in some way, it may not excuse later bad behavior, but it can explain it.

hwyla, thanks for the examples from the book, I have been so busy trying to explain my point that I haven't spent the time yet to look in the book...(add to list of things to do: look in books :tu:)

daisy5, and you said on the other thread you never have good ideas! Great post! You explained it perfectly, IMO.

I find myself joining threads midstream quite often of late, again, I apologise if I'm asking previously answered/discussed questions.

So, I was thinking about Dumbledore's reaction as Snape appeared in the tower scene. He was described as pleading, not disbelieving as I would have expected, given that he trusted Snape completely up until this point. But I don't think he was shocked to see Snape siding with the DEs.

Feel free to point out that there could in fact have been shock and surprise in his voice, or he was so shocked he could only speak his name in a daze, but I would like to discuss what the implications are if we take my perhaps unlikely idea as true.

What would there be to gain from pretending to trust Snape implicitly if he didn't? Was he hoping Snape would unwittingly provide information about Voldemort to Dumbledore? Did he feel that info on Voldemort was more dangerous than anything Snape could pass on to Voldemort about Dumbledore?

What are your thoughts?

jaan - I think your point is actually one that many see as proof that Albus and Snape planned for the possibilty of this kind of situation out in advance. That Albus isn't surprised because they had discussed the possiblity that Snape might be placed in that position and that he was doing exactly what Albus had asked him to do.

daisy5, and you said on the other thread you never have good ideas! Great post! You explained it perfectly, IMO.
:blush: Thank you. Sometimes I am inspired by others.



What would there be to gain from pretending to trust Snape implicitly if he didn't? . . . What are your thoughts?
Perhaps Dumbledore didn't want Snape to know that he was no longer trusted? If Dumbledore questioned Snape's loyalty, he could be trying to find out for sure - testing him. If Dumbledore didn't think Snape was loyal to him at all, it could be a way to send false information to Voldemort. Dumbledore could give Snape bogus information to pass on, while hoping for something useful in return.

But Snape is good, so it doesn't matter :lol: .

People certainly are responsible for their choices and actions, but sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. People who have been bullied or abused don't become bullies or abusers themselves simply because they are bored and have nothing better to do with themselves. That is their way of dealing with a trauma.

I guess what I have big trouble with is seeing Snape's horrible experiences at school at the hands of Marauders as mitigating circumstances for his choice to join Death Eaters. IMO that's just waaaaay beyond Snape growing up to be a bitter, nasty person who abuses his teaching position - that stuff is peanuts in comparsion.

So, I was thinking about Dumbledore's reaction as Snape appeared in the tower scene. He was described as pleading, not disbelieving as I would have expected, given that he trusted Snape completely up until this point. But I don't think he was shocked to see Snape siding with the DEs.

Well, the most interesting thing about that whole scene IMO is that we get ZERO description of reaction from Dumbledore apart from that "Please...". Even if, say, Dumbledore was numb and shocked beyond words, I'd still expect to see the description of Dumbledore looking numb and shocked beyond words. But nooo, JKR doesn't give us anything.

But as to that 'gang' - one of his examples as part of that group was Bella. ('The Lestranges, a married couple who went to Azkaban' - paraphrased). Well, besides the point that Sirius doesn't mention that HE's actually her cousin IF we sit down and figure out timeline (based on Tonks' age and so Andromeda's age and the fact that Bella would still be older), Bella was probably only at Hogwarts for Snape's first year (at which point she was a 7th year). Yet, she's one of the first of this 'gang' that Sirius mentions. Presumably her husband is relatively close to her age (maybe not, but MORE than likely he wasn't a firstie with Snape).


I've read this timeline explanation also in DevSev (I am only lurking there :)) The question I always had is: how do we know that "the Lestranges" are Bella and R. Lestrange, her husband? Couldn't it refer to Lestrange and his sibling? Sure, I know that there is no sibling mentioned. I do not know if there is any evidence though that "the Lestranges" are Bella and Rudolphus (or whatever he is called). I know it is a common way to call married couples, but Bella was probably not married in highschool. Now Sirius makes this comment ... later in life, so the fact that Bella wasn't married during highschool doesn't create a problem.

However, do we have better evidence that "the Lestranges" are Bella and Rudolphus apart from the fact that it sounds natural and we do not know of any siblings of his? If "the Lestranges" refers to two siblings, then the whole timeline of Snape having a gang to hang around only during the first year might be not very accurate.

Sirius describes the Lestranges as a married couple, now in Azkaban. Since both brothers were DEs, though, both might've married Death Eaters, and the younger brother's wife went to Azkaban before or after him -- so they WOULD both be a married couple in Azkaban, but closer in age to Snape.

As for the history of bullying and future choice -- I propose that we're all actually in agreement and just misunderstanding each other, because we seem to just be saying the same things with emphasis on different tennets.

As for Dumbledore's Death and trust in Snape -- considering he didn't confront Draco about the attempts on his life because he was worried for Draco's safety, he could theoretically have been doing the same for Snape (who'd suffer if Voldemort thought Dumbledore didn't trust him anymore -- thereby making Snape useless). Of course, Dumbledore's chances have limits. Draco was a 16 year old boy who's family was being threatened and who hadn't killed anyone yet. Snape is a grown man who's had 16 years' worth of chances to pick a side; he didn't let Tom Riddle return to teach just because it might be good for him. So I don't think it's very likely.

If he were unsure about Snape though, but not confident in his distrust, I'm sure he wouldn't express it. Snape is easily nettled, and especially -- it seems-- when it comes to the distrust he gets of those around him. If he WERE on the good side, Dumbledore's lack of trust in him would be the straw that breaks the camel's back and haul's the camel's broken body back over to the dark side with renewed bitterness and rage.

Sirius describes the Lestranges as a married couple, now in Azkaban. Since both brothers were DEs, though, both might've married Death Eaters, and the younger brother's wife went to Azkaban before or after him -- so they WOULD both be a married couple in Azkaban, but closer in age to Snape.The problem with the idea that this was Rabastan and an unknown wife (instead of Rudolphus and Bella) is that this unknown wife is never mentioned - not in GoF when Voldy is talking about the Death Eaters in Azkaban, nor in OotP when the Death Eaters are broken out of Azkaban. We are told the number of those missing from the graveyard circle because they're in Azkaban and it equals the number that is broken out.

Additionally, we have Bella's comments in HBP/ch2/Spinners End - about Snape's favorite subject (DADA) and his not taking 'risks' like the others always had. I admit that the 'possibility' that JKR is talking about someone we've never heard of before DOES exist - however that means she's putting in a character that she is not explaining the existence of at all. Remember also that there were spaces left in the graveyard circle for the dead.

So, this unknown wife must not only have never been introduced to us, she must not have normally stood in the circle near her husband and she must have either died in Azkaban or Voldy just didn't think it worth breaking her out while he did the others.

And one that is difficult to bring in later in the books (as she probably must have died in Azkaban if she wasn't broken out by Voldy). She DOES mention dead people in the list of the 'gang', but she lets us know at other points in the books that these people are dead.

By the way, we're not really sure WHICH Lestrange brother is the oldest or youngest. Considering that Sirius was apparently jailed in a nearby cell to the Lestranges, etc. (he heard them talking about wanting to kill the 'spy' which HE assumes is about Peter) he has to know that both brothers were Death Eaters, yet he only mentions the one. This kind of implies that only one of the brothers was in the 'gang' - leaving us with the possibility that it is Rabastan who is older and had already left school before Snape got there.

I have a feeling I didn't make myself clear. It could also be that I did make myself clear, only that I didn't understand your answers. So please allow me to restate my question:

Who is "the Lestranges" that Sirius mentions? From the posts I've read, I have the feeling that everybody assumes that it is Rudolphus and Bella. How do we know. I assumed that perhaps it could have been Rudolphus and Rabastan (after all, if Askaban is like our jails, then women are in separate cells from men). I did not even consider the possibility that a "Ms. Rabastan Lestrange exists". I was merely pointing out that if Sirius meant "the Lestranges"="Rudolphus and Rabastan", then the whole timeline "Snape had a 'gang' only during his first year at school and for the rest he was unprotected/lonely" does not stand.

Of course Sirius is not the best source of info in this scene but I would like to examine all possibilities that he was sort of right (i.e. that Snape was indeed a member of a gang throught his school years) before dismissing it based on an assumption on Bella's age. Did I get it wrong?

Edit: Yes, I got it wrong. The answers bellow are very illuminating -I should have checked the text. Many thanks to all.

Vlasiou – I might be totally misunderstanding you here, and if I am, I apologise, but I think we are assuming that the Lestranges Sirius mentions are Rodolphus and Bellatrix, because he says that they are a married couple: “-he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.’ Sirius held up his fingers, and began ticking off names. ‘Rosier and Wilkes- they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges – they’re a married couple- they’re in Azkaban.” (GoF p. 577-578 UK paperback)
So that’s why I don’t think he can be referring to Rodolphus and Rabastan here.

Sorry to interrupt on a different part of the discussion, i just wanted to put my thoughts in and this thread seemed appropriate.

I came across this while reading again last night and i think its almost certain proof that Snape was on Dumbledore's side. Here's my proof.

HBP- The Cave, pg 534 Enlgish Edition - "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside"

HBP - The Lightning Struck Tower, pg 556 - "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face"
Coincidence, i don't think so. JK has obviously put this in to show that they are both following Dumbledore's orders, even though they are absolutely hating doing it. It certainly convinced me and the more I read over it the more convinced I am.

Vlasiou - when Sirius mentioned the Lestranges he immediately afterwards says they are a married couple who went to Azkaban - so, he is not talking about the two brothers. The alternative that has since been suggested is that perhaps Rabastan was married and it meant HIM and HIS wife.

However, no mention has ever been made of another Death Eater woman in Azkaban. If one existed she was not among those who were broken out of Azkaban by Voldy. Additionally, since the number of people broken out of Azkaban is equal to the number of empty spots in the graveyard circle that Voldy said were the Death Eaters in Azkaban this tends to imply that there wasn't any Azkabanees that were left behind during the escape.

So, 'I' at least think it's pretty sure that he meant Rodolphus and Bella.

HBP- The Cave, pg 534 Enlgish Edition - "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside"

HBP - The Lightning Struck Tower, pg 556 - "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face"

[...]
JK has obviously put this in to show that they are both following Dumbledore's orders, even though they are absolutely hating doing it.I like these little written hints, well observed. :tu: I absolutely agree. This is a good, maybe the best I heard so far, explanation for Snape's face.


I even wonder, why Dumbledore didn't stop Draco over the year. He tiold him at the tower that he knew, what he has done, but didn't care about the dangers other people - his students - came in. I believe Dumbledore knew about the vow and that was the most important thing behind all others, what brought him to the decision to die.