Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v3

1, Dumbledore trusts snape but i don't believe the reason he gave to harry.
Why not? :huh: He could be telling the truth but just not have told Harry the details and specifics, which I believe was the case.

I think that snape is truly on the bad side, however, im not so sure that he'll come back to the good side. but hey, you never know, right?

2, He only killed dumbledore because he had made the unbreakable vow to protect draco as he carried out voldemorts orders. As everyone knows, if you don't live up to an unbreakable vow, you die.

And, possibly, because Dumbledore wanted him to, rather than let Draco do it.

3, Dumbledore twiced ordered snape to kill him if he had to. The first time was in the forest which hagrid over heard and the second time was on top of the tower.

I am curious how you came to that conclusion from the dialogue Hagrid overheard.

4, In the first book snape helped to stop quirrell/voldemort from stealing the stone and he went out of his way to protect harry.

Although I agree that Snape is "good", he does explain that for Bellatrix in Book 6. He didn't know Quirrel was in league with Riddle and, so, was just stopping Quirrel from getting the stone. That said, it still doesn't explain why he prevented Quirrel from killing Harry at Quidditch. That wouldn't have been pinned on him (Snape).

5, In the third book he again tried to protect harry even if it wasn't wanted or needed.

Really, when? I don't remember any instances.

1, Dumbledore trusts snape but i don't believe the reason he gave to harry.

This is important, and I kind of agree. Here is my theory:

We know, from one of the botched Occlumency lessons, that Snape had a horrible childhood. This caused him to become a twisted and dark teen and probably explains his fascination with dark arts and knowledge of them. I am reminded of a student (real life) who was very much like Snape. He was greasy and weird and constantly picked on by other students. He played violent video games and was always talking about "world domination." Both his home life and social life were not condusive to being a good person. When a rumor went around that he had a hit list of students and teachers, all believed it, even when I researched it and found out it was a lie. This boy is being pushed by society to become a Columbine copycat.

Snape is similar. Really, what was going to happen to him? The only people who have embraced him so far are Slytherin and Riddle. That is the first place he had belonged since ... ever. And Potter/Black didn't help at all by constantly bullying him.

Snape becomes a Death Eater until his actions cause the death of two people. Yes, he could have fled to Dumbledore because there was no protection after Riddle "died." BUT, I think Dumbledore would be smart enough to need more proof than that. Snape is an accomplished Occumens, and probably never opened himself up to anyone, including Riddle. I think Dumbledore demanded that Snape allow him full access to his mind that he might know whether he was truly sorry.

So, why does Dumbledore trust Snape? Because Snape allowed Dumbledore to read his mind at least once. Then, Harry comes to school. Snape is caught between three forces. First, he must not do anything that will prevent him returning to Riddle's side should he rise again (as a spy). Second, he loathes Potter, who has everything Snape always wanted, the love and adulation of all, and a connection to Snape's school enemies. Finally, he has a loyalty to Dumbledore because Dumbledore has given Snape what he always needed. Trust. Friendship. Loyalty. A worthy role in an elite organization.

Snape is not good. He's bent and twisted by life. But Snape wants to be good, and Dumbledore gave him that opportunity. This makes Snapes "sacrifice" in killing Dumbledore (and being ostracized from the "good" side forever) that much more poigniant.

I am curious how you came to that conclusion from the dialogue Hagrid overheard.
It is a popular theory (though not one I believe). Dumbledore tells Snape he agreed to do it, according to Hagrid. People take this to be a reference to the Vow Snape made with Narcissa.

Really, when? I don't remember any instances.

It was arguably a reason for Snape's presence in the Shrieking Shack. He certainly knew Harry was there when he chose to go in there to confront Lupin and Sirius. Also, the thing he yells at Harry, about how Harry should be thanking him for rescuing him, when ohterwise he would die like James because of his arrogant belied in Black, supports this idea.
Snape becomes a Death Eater until his actions cause the death of two people. Yes, he could have fled to Dumbledore because there was no protection after Riddle "died." BUT, I think Dumbledore would be smart enough to need more proof than that. Snape is an accomplished Occumens, and probably never opened himself up to anyone, including Riddle. I think Dumbledore demanded that Snape allow him full access to his mind that he might know whether he was truly sorry.
According to Dumbledore, Snape 'returned' to the good side before th deaths of the Potters (probably at least two months before, since he was already teaching at Hogwarts that Fall). This was probably an additional factor.

Nice post, by the way, I liked all of it! :tu:

It is a popular theory (though not one I believe). Dumbledore tells Snape he agreed to do it, according to Hagrid. People take this to be a reference to the Vow Snape made with Narcissa.

It just goes to show that I'm quite a bit out of touch with phan philosophy about these things. Thanks for the info.

It was arguably a reason for Snape's presence in the Shrieking Shack. He certainly knew Harry was there when he chose to go in there to confront Lupin and Sirius. Also, the thing he yells at Harry, about how Harry should be thanking him for rescuing him, when ohterwise he would die like James because of his arrogant belied in Black, supports this idea.

OK, I see that. I attributed it all to hatred of Sirius and Lupin as overt protection of Harry seems so out of place. It does make sense that, if Sirius were believed to be on Riddle's side, and Snape was on Riddle's side, that he would have attempted to free Sirius and kill Harry himself.

That makes me wonder if he knew that Sirius was not guilty from the beginning. If so, then all his actions in the shack would be in character.

According to Dumbledore, Snape 'returned' to the good side before th deaths of the Potters (probably at least two months before, since he was already teaching at Hogwarts that Fall). This was probably an additional factor.

I'll have to read that part again, but I do seem to recall that Riddle sent Snape to Hogwarts on his (Riddle's) orders. That would mean it would have had to have happened before Ch. 1 of Book 1.

Nice post, by the way, I liked all of it!

Thanks! It's the first original thing I've had to contribute so far.

It was arguably a reason for Snape's presence in the Shrieking Shack. He certainly knew Harry was there when he chose to go in there to confront Lupin and Sirius.
I don’t disagree that Snape has tried to protect Harry, but I wonder if he knew Harry was in the Shrieking Shack when he went there. He saw Lupin on the map running towards the Shack, but as the map shows only Hogwarts grounds and not the Shack, he couldn’t have seen that the kids were there too.

He saw Lupin on the map running towards the Shack ...

If you see a faded sign by the whomping willow that says
"Follow this tunnel to the... Scream Shack!" Scream Shack yeah yeah
I'm headin' down under Hogsmeade, lookin' for the ghost getaway
Heading for the ghost getaway, ghost getaway,
The black dog has Ron, it's as big as a horse and we're headin' on down
To the Scream Shack

Sorry. Coudn't resist. Forgive the artistic licensure usage of "Scream" instead of "Shrieking".

I don’t disagree that Snape has tried to protect Harry, but I wonder if he knew Harry was in the Shrieking Shack when he went there. He saw Lupin on the map running towards the Shack, but as the map shows only Hogwarts grounds and not the Shack, he couldn’t have seen that the kids were there too.

Snape found Harry's Invisibility Cloak discarded at the foot of the Whomping Willow. I guess he could not have known with 100% certainty that Harry was in the Willow, but since he (in my opinion) thought Lupin and Black were in league, and Harry was apparently the target of Black, this would have been a logical supposition.

OK, I see that. I attributed it all to hatred of Sirius and Lupin as overt protection of Harry seems so out of place. It does make sense that, if Sirius were believed to be on Riddle's side, and Snape was on Riddle's side, that he would have attempted to free Sirius and kill Harry himself.
Do you see any kind of protection of Harry as out of character for Snape? Because (if protection of Harry is anywhere on the Snape radar) he had no choice but to act immediately, in my opinion. Based on the information he had, Harry was in the Shack with Sirius (escaped Death Eater out to kill Harry) and Lupin (suspected by Snape, and regardless of these suspicions, certainly a werewolf about to transform, dangerously, without his potion).


I'll have to read that part again, but I do seem to recall that Riddle sent Snape to Hogwarts on his (Riddle's) orders. That would mean it would have had to have happened before Ch. 1 of Book 1.

Yes, that is what Snape says at Spinner's End. My point was only that based on Dumbledore's statements, (both to Harry in HBP, and to the court hearing Karkaroff's statement in GoF) it seems that Dumbledore was already aware of Snape's (alleged) remorse over the Prophecy before he appointed Snape to teach at Hogwarts, and he already believed that Snape had 'returned' and was spying for him on Voldemort. As far as Dumbledore believes, the death of the Potters was of course something Snape viewed as tragic, but it was not the reason fro his return.

Snape may, of course, have tricked Dumbledore, acting on Voldemort's orders. I just don't think so. :D

Do you see any kind of protection of Harry as out of character for Snape?

Yeah, I do (if he was a closet Death Eater). The only reason he preserved Harry's life at the end of Book 6 (he said) was because Riddle ordered them all to leave Harry alone. But no such order existed in books 1 or 3, so I don't see why (if he was a closet Death Eater) Snape would have prevented Quirrel or Black from killing him.

Also, I think all the Death Eaters knew Black was not in league with them, so Snape probably knew Black did not betray the Potters. I think he just wanted Black dead because he hated him. No proof, logical or otherwise, though.

Yeah, I do (if he was a closet Death Eater).
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying you think Snape was a closet Death Eater, or not?

But no such order existed in books 1 or 3, so I don't see why (if he was a closet Death Eater) Snape would have prevented Quirrel or Black from killing him.
Right. Only, in both books, he did. Book 3 is murkier because of other goals Snape may have had, but Book 1 seems pretty clear.

Also, I think all the Death Eaters knew Black was not in league with them, so Snape probably knew Black did not betray the Potters. I think he just wanted Black dead because he hated him. No proof, logical or otherwise, though.
There is reason to believe not all Death Eaters before Voldemort's fall knew all of the others. Karkaroff was able to name only a handful of names, when he decided to cooperate with the Ministry for a reduced sentence. Also, the apparent custom of wearing masks even to private Death Eater meetings suggests this. Why bother, if only Death Eaters will be at the meeting, and they all know each other?

And of one accepts the above argument, it would make sense for Snape not to know the identity of Voldemort's spy in the Order. Voldemort is not a trusting sort. By having two independent sources within the Order (Snape and Peter, each unaware of the other's role) he would have a way to 'double check' their information to help ensure neither was double-crossing him.

Snape is not good. He's bent and twisted by life. But Snape wants to be good, and Dumbledore gave him that opportunity. This makes Snapes "sacrifice" in killing Dumbledore (and being ostracized from the "good" side forever) that much more poigniant.

I agree with this statement. Snape is not good; I do, however, believe he is on the "good" side. I do think he is loyal to DUMBLEDORE, not necessarily the Order. I don't necessarily agree that he wants to be good. I do think he is seeking redemption, whether he realizes it or not.
In looking at Harry, he sees what he could not have. (I am in the Snape loved Lily camp). He sees Lilys eyes, which haunt him, in James faces, which haunts him for different reasons. He sees harry as the reason Lily is dead. And yet, he knows (at least I think he does) that Harry is the only one who can defeat LV. Such a dilemma that he must feel he needs a pensieve all the time!?

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying you think Snape was a closet Death Eater, or not?

Well, that's kind of a difficult point as he was a double agent, but I think he was not. I think he was firmly on the side of DD.

Right. Only, in both books, he did. Book 3 is murkier because of other goals Snape may have had, but Book 1 seems pretty clear.

I agree. It doesn't fit IF he is firmly on Riddle's side.

There is reason to believe not all Death Eaters before Voldemort's fall knew all of the others.

You're right, I didn't think about that. Still, it's apparent that Snape was unwilling to use his prodigious skill at legilimency to determine if Black was wrong or not. Actually, there's a singular lack of many ministry wizards to use a skill which, I'm sure, the FBI would LOVE to have to find out the truth.

I agree with this statement. Snape is not good; I do, however, believe he is on the "good" side. I do think he is loyal to DUMBLEDORE, not necessarily the Order. I don't necessarily agree that he wants to be good. I do think he is seeking redemption, whether he realizes it or not.

You put it better than I did. Snape is loyal to DD, absolutely, but no one else. Why should he be? Who in the Order has trusted Snape aside from DD's orders? Who in the Order has ever been kind or good to him? At best, they have been tolerant and, more often than not, downright nasty. Of course, Snape is a nasty person and it's easy to respond in kind.

In looking at Harry, he sees what he could not have. (I am in the Snape loved Lily camp). He sees Lilys eyes, which haunt him, in James faces, which haunts him for different reasons.

Oooooh, good point! I wanted to say that as well, but didn't. It explains his loathing of Harry very well. Harry is everything Snape wanted, needed, in life but never got. It brings up another point, though.

I would hazard a guess that Harry's life was every bit as difficult, if not moreso, than Snape's. The only difference is that Snape knew about his wizarding past and Harry didn't. How did Harry escape becoming such a twisted wreck? Why did the Dursley's not affect him more than they did?

My guess: Harry always had the dream of his parents and a life with people who loved him. Snape had no escape. His parents were the cause of his pain and suffering. Where do you run to? What dream or fantasy can offer you relief? None. All you can do is seek power so that no one can affect you again.

For that matter, why did Riddle get so twisted and not Harry? He, too, could have had the dream of a better life with his parents. Heck, his life wasn't even that hard. The orphanage wasn't a great place, but he didn't suffer the abuse that Harry and Snape did. What's his excuse?

It goes to the question of evil, which I think is relevant to this thread. Some say that evil is caused by nature (you're born with inclinations). Some say it is caused by nurture (the way you are raised). Some say it is a choice (an act of your will). Most agree that it is a mixture of all three to some degree. Rowling seems heavy on the latter, on choice, in the books, but a study of these three characters makes me wonder.

Harry, it seems clear, made a choice to be good despite his upbringing (or was it genetics from his "good" parents). Snape wants to be good (and eventually chooses it), but is bent by his nurture (or do we see a battle between a genetic predisposition to be good and an environment which encourages evil). Riddle has no real reason to be evil, but seems to choose it (or is it a struggle between his genetic predisposition to evil against his environment, which is not all that bad).

Deep topics. I love these books! There's almost as much topic for discussion as there is in LOTR/Silmarillion.

You're right, I didn't think about that. Still, it's apparent that Snape was unwilling to use his prodigious skill at legilimency to determine if Black was wrong or not. Actually, there's a singular lack of many ministry wizards to use a skill which, I'm sure, the FBI would LOVE to have to find out the truth.
From the description of Legilimency we've been given to date, I do not believe Snape could have gotten his answer with a quick read of Sirius's surface thoughts. ANd he did not feel he owed Sirius anything, let alone the effort and delay involved in a more thorough interrogation.


My guess: Harry always had the dream of his parents and a life with people who loved him.
This is doubtless part of it. Also, I suspect Rowling is familiar with research on child development and the importance to positive social development of the young child of an strong, early bond to a primary caregiver(s). Harry at fifteen months, as the beloved child of an intact family, would certainly have developed such a secure bond with his parents. I also think that the magic of his mother's 'love sacrifice' may have had some protective effect. It is described somewhere as being 'in his skin', or something like that, if I recall.

For that matter, why did Riddle get so twisted and not Harry? He, too, could have had the dream of a better life with his parents. Heck, his life wasn't even that hard. The orphanage wasn't a great place, but he didn't suffer the abuse that Harry and Snape did. What's his excuse?

I think Rowling has written Riddle as to some extent inclined to evil/sociopathy by nature. We are shown that his maternal line is not exactly full of mentally stable individuals. Also, the traits he exhibits as a baby (being 'strange', not crying much) are unusual and linked to sociopathy. And finally, their consequence is that he got less attention from the caregivers at the orphanage than the other babies. There was probably no special nursery worker who formed even a temporary attachment to him. So while he was not abused, he has never loved or been loved. In his case, I think it is not his choice, but his parents', that is at the root of the problem.

Harry, it seems clear, made a choice to be good despite his upbringing (or was it genetics from his "good" parents). Snape wants to be good (and eventually chooses it), but is bent by his nurture (or do we see a battle between a genetic predisposition to be good and an environment which encourages evil). Riddle has no real reason to be evil, but seems to choose it (or is it a struggle between his genetic predisposition to evil against his environment, which is not all that bad).

I agree to some extent, but I think some of the 'choice' theme is expressed by Rowling through the parents. I feel that in her writing she focuses a lot on the importance of good parents. Dudley is the 'damaged' product of his parents' upbringing of him (though of course he also bears some responsibility for his own choices). Draco's prejudices can also be traced back to the same source. And Harry, Snape, and Riddle may in part embody three different parent situations. Harry, two good parents he had long enough for it to make a difference, Snape, a bad family situation (though, we have been told someone has loved him...one of his parents?), and Riddle, abandoned by both of his parents at birth.

Actually, it means quite a lot more than one would think, and one of the meanings directly connects to Harry Potter. Here is an excellent article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abracadabra)on the word itself.

As for the Harry Potter connection, Avada Kidavra is related to the popular "mumbo-jumbo" magical phrase Abracadabra, which is actually of Aramaic origin: avra (or abara) means "I will create"; kedavra means "as I speak". Thus, abracadabra, "I will create as I speak". Similarly, avada means "I will destroy". So, in Rowling's world, the killing curse literally means "I will destroy as I speak", a pretty fair description of its effects.

Cool, huh?

Well, that was not the interesting part about the quote, it was who first used the word. Did you notice?

It was arguably a reason for Snape's presence in the Shrieking Shack. He certainly knew Harry was there when he chose to go in there to confront Lupin and Sirius. Also, the thing he yells at Harry, about how Harry should be thanking him for rescuing him, when ohterwise he would die like James because of his arrogant belied in Black, supports this idea.



I think that he didn't want to protect Harry but to catch Sirius and become famous. Do you remember how furious Snape was when he found out that Sirius managed to escape. He was to be given a medal or something like that and he got nothing. Dumbledore also said that it was Lupin who saved the trio's lives and what then did Sanpe do? He told everyone that Lupin was a werewolf.
He couldn't hurt Harry at Hogwarts because Dumbledore was there. So he had to pretend that he protected Harry (e.g. quidditch match in book one). And I wonder why Snape didn't arrive at the Ministry of Magic to help everyone in the battle in book five?

Well, that was not the interesting part about the quote, it was who first used the word. Did you notice?

Yeah, Severus somebody-or-other, wasn't it?

Snape found Harry's Invisibility Cloak discarded at the foot of the Whomping Willow. I guess he could not have known with 100% certainty that Harry was in the Willow, but since he (in my opinion) thought Lupin and Black were in league, and Harry was apparently the target of Black, this would have been a logical supposition.

Good point and I agree that once he found the Invisibility Cloak near the Whomping Willow he would know that Harry was in the Shrieking Shack. But in my opinion he may not have known Harry is in the Shack when he decided to go there, because he saw the map in Lupin’s room and he only saw Lupin on the map. But I suppose it isn’t hugely important when Snape realised that Harry was in the Shack too.

He couldn't hurt Harry at Hogwarts because Dumbledore was there. So he had to pretend that he protected Harry (e.g. quidditch match in book one). And I wonder why Snape didn't arrive at the Ministry of Magic to help everyone in the battle in book five?
I agree that Snape couldn’t have hurt Harry at Hogwarts because of Dumbledore, but I don’t really agree about the Quidditch match in book one. In my opinion he didn’t have to protect Harry there. If Harry had fallen off his broom, who could have blamed Snape for it? He wasn’t any more responsible for Harry’s safety than for example professor Sprout was.

As for Snape not being in the Ministry of Magic in OotP… He has to maintain his cover. If he had come there to fight the Death Eaters, they would have realised that he isn’t a loyal Death Eater, and he wouldn’t be able to work as a spy for the Order anymore.

"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ..."
"I am," said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.

Question: What does it mean that his eyes glittered strangely? Although I think Snape on DD's side, the way that sentence is phrased makes me think it was in pleasure. If it wasn't for the pallid face, I would have thought he was excited.

Question: What does it mean that his eyes glittered strangely? Although I think Snape on DD's side, the way that sentence is phrased makes me think it was in pleasure. If it wasn't for the pallid face, I would have thought he was excited.

Oh, the time I took thinking on this one...Sounds very suspicious, doesn't it? But I think this is one more clue to mess things up: too many ways it can be interpreted. What I came up with: we all remember how twisted Snape got when called "coward" by Harry in the ch. Flight of the Prince. If we accept as presupposition that Snape's on Dumbledore's side, but we accept that given Snape as he is: fascinated with the Dark Arts, good (meaning performant) and strong wizard who acts more than talks about how to, skilled in many ways and most importantly: proud (in his own way) and expecting appreciation and respect we can easily interpret this "strange glittering" as the showing of his feeling about this assignment: he must be proud he has he most dangerous assignment which he willingly took (Dumbledore asks not orders others for assignments) and why not be excited about it? He does (to some extent I believe) fancy the Dark Arts, has a respect for them, this is the way he is. I think he likes to prove himself, not for others, but for himself. Thwarting the Dark Lord in the most cunning and daring way it is possible it is something to be proud of.

Question: What does it mean that his eyes glittered strangely? Although I think Snape on DD's side, the way that sentence is phrased makes me think it was in pleasure. If it wasn't for the pallid face, I would have thought he was excited.
Some clever poster on either the Betrayal Thread or Dev if Sev (sadly, closed now...) observed that pale face and eyes glittering is the expression Harry is described as having in PS/SS, when he decided to go and get the Stone to keep Snape from stealing it from Voldemort (as he then believed). I think it is reasonable to use this as a clue as to the sort of emotions Rowling uses to represent by this description.

So what might Harry have been expressing? I'd say, a combination of reasonable trepidation at the danger he's about to encounter, and resolve. Which makes all kinds of sense for Snape as he sets out to confront Voldemort with his story and resume spying. as well.

I agree that Snape couldn’t have hurt Harry at Hogwarts because of Dumbledore, but I don’t really agree about the Quidditch match in book one. In my opinion he didn’t have to protect Harry there. If Harry had fallen off his broom, who could have blamed Snape for it? He wasn’t any more responsible for Harry’s safety than for example professor Sprout was.




Yes, but if something happened to Harry, probably Snape could have been blamed for it. Hermiona and Ron saw Snape casting a spell and they thought that he wanted to hurt Harry. Of course, he didn't need to protect Harry but he wanted to show that he is on "good" side.

And some of you mentioned also that Snape protects the trio when Lupin transform into a werewolf. Ok, there is such a scene but only in a film. Not in a book.

And some of you mentioned also that Snape protects the trio when Lupin transform into a werewolf. Ok, there is such a scene but only in a film. Not in a book.

It's in the book, and it's a puzzling bit to ponder. Snape tells the three kids that he is saving them from Black and Lupin (who he says is in league with Black). He says Harry is trying to be a hero and so he (Snape) is saving Harry from himself.

I will say this, I think the movie did a very poor job of rendering Azkaban on film. I have no idea why Rowling said it was her favorite.

The only thing that has me sold on that Snape is on the good side is the way HBP ended.(hard to believe i know) When Harry is chasing after Snape and trying to curse him Snape blocks Harry's curses and sends a couple of his own but nothing too serious, but when one of the DE's tries to use an UF curse oh Harry Snape tells him that "Potter is for the Dark Lord", but what i don't understand is that it would have been fairly easy for Snape to bring Harry along to Voldemort, instead he makes sure he isn't harmed anymore then he already is and that he isn't brought along.

There are a few other things i have read with could be interpreted either way, as Snape being good or bad. But that is the only thing that truely makes me believe Snape is on the good side, however if he is not on the good side i cannot see Snape coming back, or being welcomed back to the good side.

Snape says: "The Dark Lord, for instance almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection."

Is it just me or does this seem like proof that Snape is good in a way? Obviously not 100% proof, but it does suggest that he is a person that can utter falsehoods in Voldemort's presence without detection and note the almost always instead of just always.

Was Snape really trying to teach Harry Occlumency?
Why was "Snape's worst memory" his worst memory?


And although Snape seemed to answer Bella's question saying he couldn't kill Harry in front of Dumbledore, there are manyi situations where he could've "accidently" done something different that would result in making things easier for Voldemort's side...
-Why did Snape notify Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix that Harry might've gone looking for Sirius at the end of OoTP. He could have easily pretended to not understand Harry's coded plea, and he could definitely have not taken the time to make sure Harry returned from the forest, too.
-Why did Snape give Umbridge fake Veritaserum to use on Harry. He oculd have said that he had to give her the real thing because it was a direct order, and it would've led to the possible discovery of the order, or Sirius or something.

I'll have more questions coming as I continue to re-read the books. So far I just reread OoTP.




Why not? :huh: He could be telling the truth but just not have told Harry the details and specifics, which I believe was the case.
Dumbledore lied to someone. Either Harry or the Wizard Court. We saw that during the trial of Karkarof, Dumbledore said that Snape joined Dumbledore's side prior to the fall of Lord Voldemort and became a spy at great personal risk.

Dumbledore told Harry that after Harry's parents died, Snape was so remorseful that he joined Dumbledore.

I personally find the first reason to be more believable.

Dumbledore lied to someone. Either Harry or the Wizard Court. We saw that during the trial of Karkarof, Dumbledore said that Snape joined Dumbledore's side prior to the fall of Lord Voldemort and became a spy at great personal risk.

Dumbledore told Harry that after Harry's parents died, Snape was so remorseful that he joined Dumbledore.

I thought this too, but someone corrected me. Snape came to Dumbledore before Harry's parents died.

Dumbledore lied to someone. Either Harry or the Wizard Court. We saw that during the trial of Karkarof, Dumbledore said that Snape joined Dumbledore's side prior to the fall of Lord Voldemort and became a spy at great personal risk.

Dumbledore told Harry that after Harry's parents died, Snape was so remorseful that he joined Dumbledore.

Dumbledore the epitome of goodness, lie straight to someone's face?

In HBP, he tells Harry that Professor Snape felt remorse when he realised how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy. Dumbledore said he believed it was the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he defected.

We know that Voldemort attacked the Potters a year after the prophecy was made, we also know that Dumbledore testified that Snape had turned spy for the order before Voldemort had fallen.

So, it is highly possible that Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy early, Snape realising this turns spy for the order, then I think a few months later, Voldemort attacks the Potters and vanishes.

So as far as I can see, Dumbledore did not lie, it actually ties in with canon.

Dumbledore the epitome of goodness, lie straight to someone's face?

In HBP, he tells Harry that Professor Snape felt remorse when he realised how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy. Dumbledore said he believed it was the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he defected.

We know that Voldemort attacked the Potters a year after the prophecy was made, we also know that Dumbledore testified that Snape had turned spy for the order before Voldemort had fallen.

So, it is highly possible that Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy early, Snape realising this turns spy for the order, then I think a few months later, Voldemort attacks the Potters and vanishes.

So as far as I can see, Dumbledore did not lie, it actually ties in with canon.
Oh okay thank you I must've misunderstood and thought that Snape was remorseful after Lily's death.

i think that there is a good chance that he won't return to the good side not now not ever ever again.

I am also a believer that Snape WAS good and that he was done in by the curse on the DADA job. BUT I believe Dumbledore knew what was going to happen. (not in a Trelawney kind of way, he just knew that curse and knew Snape.)

I believe Dumbledore was right when he said that the greatest regret of Snape's life was passing the prophecy (or part of it) on to Voldemort, once he learned who Voldemort was going to go after. Snape may have hated James, but just like James hated him but didn't want to see him dead, Snape risked his life to prevent his murder; just as James had for him.

The fact that James was killed despite his efforts is probably what drove Snape to be the horrible, hateful and bitter man he is to Harry. He doesn't hate Harry, he hates himself and he takes it out on Harry (and others that remind him of his own self-loathing.) He wants Harry expelled for two reasons; 1) So he doesn't have to see the face of the man who saved his life and whom he all but killed by his own hand, and 2) He knows that Harry is "The Chosen One" and he wants him on Privet Drive where he is protected, so he can live long enough to grow up and kill Voldemort. He SAYS Harry is nothing special, but Snape's a smart man and he KNOWS how the whole prophecy thing works - just like Dumbledore does.

The summer between OotP and HBP, when Dumbledore became injured by the ring, he went to Snape, who saved his life. I think Dumbledore knew at that time that he was old and that his time was close. He also knew that he had things to do and that Harry was going to have to go on without him. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and although he never said "with my life" as he did with Hagrid, I believe he did trust him with his life - to end it. He set out to use his last school year to "set his affairs in order" - which was to give Harry all the information he would need for the great climax in book 7.

Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA job knowing in his heart that the curse causes "self-undoing" and that the undoing of Snape would be to kill him. I think he offered Snape the DADA job right then and there. Before the events of "Spinners End".

On the other side of the good/evil battle, I believe Voldemort did not wholly trust Snape and that he was actually setting up the "Unbreakable Vow". I doubt if he actually ordered Narcissa there, but I think he orchestrated it with the task to Draco as much to put Snape in that position as to punish Lucius.

I think the "I don't want to do it anymore" conversation was not that Snape didn't want to follow any master plan to kill Dumbledore, it wasn't that he didn't want to be a spy - it was that he didn't want to do the DADA job anymore. He knew he was being squeezed; he didn't know what was going to happen but he could tell it was going to be bad.

On the top of the Astronomy Tower - Snape had no idea what was going on, he never succeeded in getting all the information out of Draco, but when he saw the Death Eaters and a cornered and dying Dumbledore he knew what he had to do and he hated the whole thing. He killed Dumbledore out of necessity - He really hated Dumbledore at that moment for putting him in that position and he really hated himself because of what he was going to do.

Personally, I hate that he did it. He DID have the choice to take on the D.E.'s that were up there and then drop dead himself because of the Unbreakable Vow - I WOULD think it more honorable. However, because Dumbledore made it so - I think it was still honorable in a way. He did what he had to do - which got the Death Eaters out of the school and away from Harry and the other children.

If we thought the "what is right or what is easy" line from Dumbledore in GoF was something deeply philosophical, imagine how that relates to the events on the Astronomy Tower. There was no clear answer as to what was right or what was easy. Die rather than betray or friends, or damage your own soul by comitting the ultimate act of murder FOR your friends.

Poor Snape. But I still don't like him.

I think Snape is good. It was too easy, the way he killed Dumbledore. I think the whole thing was set up by Snape and Dumbledore. Snape could have killed Harry at any time as Harry was pursuing him out of hogwarts. Yet he didn't.

I think Snape is good. It was too easy, the way he killed Dumbledore. I think the whole thing was set up by Snape and Dumbledore. Snape could have killed Harry at any time as Harry was pursuing him out of hogwarts. Yet he didn't.Exactly. Snape said that he couldn't kill Harry in front of Dumbledore, but there were many situations where he could and it would've looked like a complete accident. I think that throughout the story Jo has shown us that people aren't completely good or completely bad... and that there is a grey area between good and evil that Snape resides in: he is sometimes mean and cruel to students, but he is in fact loyal and willing to do anything for Dumbledore and really does value his relationships with people.

Exactly. Snape said that he couldn't kill Harry in front of Dumbledore, but there were many situations where he could and it would've looked like a complete accident. I think that throughout the story Jo has shown us that people aren't completely good or completely bad... and that there is a grey area between good and evil that Snape resides in: he is sometimes mean and cruel to students, but he is in fact loyal and willing to do anything for Dumbledore and really does value his relationships with people.

Completely agreed. :D

Exactly. Snape said that he couldn't kill Harry in front of Dumbledore, but there were many situations where he could and it would've looked like a complete accident. I think that throughout the story Jo has shown us that people aren't completely good or completely bad... and that there is a grey area between good and evil that Snape resides in: he is sometimes mean and cruel to students, but he is in fact loyal and willing to do anything for Dumbledore and really does value his relationships with people.

:agree:

Couldn't have said it better myself. It definitely seems as though Snape is truly good throughout the books, though with subtle hints. I"m currently rereading them (POA now), and I'm actually reading them aloud to myself so that I catch things better. It's really working! I can catch hints of relationships way back in SS and CoS, and many small hints throughout the series becomes clear...

Anyway, Snape could have let Harry die and not fulfilled his life debt in SS . And, I don't think that Snape is dense enough to think that the turban and garlic smell was just a phase for his collegue, Quirrel. I think Snape may have known, or at least suspected, Quirrel was working with Tommy Boy. Think about it: "Decide where your loyalties lie". That could definitely be between Dumbledore and Tommy Boy, prooving that Snape really was working against Tommy Boy there.

I am also a believer that Snape WAS good and that he was done in by the curse on the DADA job.
:tu: I think not enough fans on the forums credit the curse for having anything to do with the outcome of HBP. Why else would Rowling make such a big deal of Snape getting the job, and the story that he always wanted it?

The summer between OotP and HBP, when Dumbledore became injured by the ring, he went to Snape, who saved his life. I think Dumbledore knew at that time that he was old and that his time was close. He also knew that he had things to do and that Harry was going to have to go on without him. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and although he never said "with my life" as he did with Hagrid, I believe he did trust him with his life - to end it. He set out to use his last school year to "set his affairs in order" - which was to give Harry all the information he would need for the great climax in book 7.

I'm suspicious of the idea that Dumbledore planned his own death at the start of the year. He's old, but Madam Marchbanks is a good 40 years older, and still administering OWL exams.

Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA job knowing in his heart that the curse causes "self-undoing" and that the undoing of Snape would be to kill him. I think he offered Snape the DADA job right then and there. Before the events of "Spinners End".
I'm not sure how Dumbledore would know killing him would be the effect of the curse on Snape. I don't think he was much good predicting the effects it would have on anyone else.


On the other side of the good/evil battle, I believe Voldemort did not wholly trust Snape and that he was actually setting up the "Unbreakable Vow". I doubt if he actually ordered Narcissa there, but I think he orchestrated it with the task to Draco as much to put Snape in that position as to punish Lucius.

Yes, Iagree. And Snape even knew it, in my opinion. It is why he says in Spinner's End that he thinks Voldemort intends him to do it in the end.

Personally, I hate that he did it. He DID have the choice to take on the D.E.'s that were up there and then drop dead himself because of the Unbreakable Vow - I WOULD think it more honorable. However, because Dumbledore made it so - I think it was still honorable in a way. He did what he had to do - which got the Death Eaters out of the school and away from Harry and the other children.
It was certainly more practical. The alternative you suggest would have been a fine gesture-but would not have done Dumbledore any good, and could have harmed Dumbledore's cause considerably.

Poor Snape. But I still don't like him.
Poor Snape, indeed. I hate it when for some reason I need to reread any part of 'Flight of the Prince' :sad:.

Great post!:cool:

The summer between OotP and HBP, when Dumbledore became injured by the ring, he went to Snape, who saved his life. I think Dumbledore knew at that time that he was old and that his time was close. He also knew that he had things to do and that Harry was going to have to go on without him. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and although he never said "with my life" as he did with Hagrid, I believe he did trust him with his life - to end it. He set out to use his last school year to "set his affairs in order" - which was to give Harry all the information he would need for the great climax in book 7.

I'm suspicious of the idea that Dumbledore planned his own death at the start of the year. He's old, but Madam Marchbanks is a good 40 years older, and still administering OWL exams.

I put a lot of thought into that very thing, but I'm convinced that Dumbledore's injury over the summer was very significant to his health; that he was taking it as an omen or as much a signal of his impending death as some of us did when reading it.



Personally, I hate that he did it. He DID have the choice to take on the D.E.'s that were up there and then drop dead himself because of the Unbreakable Vow - I WOULD think it more honorable. However, because Dumbledore made it so - I think it was still honorable in a way. He did what he had to do - which got the Death Eaters out of the school and away from Harry and the other children.

It was certainly more practical. The alternative you suggest would have been a fine gesture-but would not have done Dumbledore any good, and could have harmed Dumbledore's cause considerably.

Exactly! Which is why I still think it was very honorable. It was really the only choice that was going to make things happen the way they had to happen. Dumbledore trusted Snape with this task specifically because he is the only character who could completely follow through with it. No one is as in control of their own emotions as Snape.

This is one thing Harry never could have done (apart from Dumbledore would never have assigned him such a job as it would damage his "intact and untarnished soul") because Harry loves too much. Dumbledore knew he had to freeze Harry for that very reason - to keep him from running headlong into a face-off with the Death Eaters in an attempt to protect Dumbledore and possibly getting himself killed. (Or causing more death and destruction amongst the students in the castle.)

I'm still convinced that Dumbledore knew what was coming (in a round-about way) if for no other reason than to provide myself comfort that "Severus, please" was not begging for his life and that Dumbledore is the kind of man who would willingly walk into that situation knowing he was going to have to give his life for those he loved most of all; Harry and the students.

I also like to think that "I am not worried Harry, I am with you." was a signal to Harry that Dumbledore was Passing the torch so to speak - that the Harry leaving the cave was a different person and that he was ready to go on to carry out his mission in Dumbledore's absence.

Y'know it's really tough to balance all this. It appears that at least at certain points Snape definitely was good and acted for the good, even if it was in his own contrary and sinister way--I'll just reference the payment of the blood debt here. Now, here's the thing, I think he almost balked at that last oath in the Unbreakable Vow because he knew it would mean that he would have to kill Dumbledore or die.

Now, as to what happened in Hogwarts and on the tower. I think Dumbledore was half-ordering, half-begging Snape to finish him off (we know he was close to death anyway) and we also have this rather ironic little bit of information about the condition of Dumbledore's corpse. But for the position, he looked as if he were sleeping--i.e. he appeared completely at peace. Had he been begging Severus for a cure and Severus turned around and murdered him, you would expect his face to be frozen in shock and surprise like Sirius, or in unimaginable grief because he realized that he had failed and that Snape had not been redeemed. Dumbledore anyway is satisfied with his death, even if no one else is.

Now, Snape's activities before racing up to the Tower are also interesting. Flitwick wakes him and tells him what's going on. Snape takes him aside in his office and stuns him, putting him out of action and being careful not to really hurt him (strange, since this gent was a Dueling Champion in his youth and is probably close to the most powerful staff member after Dumbledore. Why not just kill him quickly?). After that, he makes sure to divert Hermione and Luna without hurting them in any way. Again, strange. The logical move for Severus Snape to take if he were a totally committed Death Eater would be to kill Hermione Granger and deprive Potter of the "more talented witch" he relies on to help him aggravate Voldemort and his Death Eaters. It just doesn't add up.

I put a lot of thought into that very thing, but I'm convinced that Dumbledore's injury over the summer was very significant to his health; that he was taking it as an omen or as much a signal of his impending death as some of us did when reading it.

I agree it affected his thinking, it certainly served as a reminder of his mortality and I do think this is the reason for the wrapping up of loose ends feeling I sometimes got about Dumbledore's actions. I just think that if the curse injury were truly killing him slowly, we would have been shown some progression in the illness. Instead we were shown no improvement.

Exactly! Which is why I still think it was very honorable. It was really the only choice that was going to make things happen the way they had to happen. Dumbledore trusted Snape with this task specifically because he is the only character who could completely follow through with it. No one is as in control of their own emotions as Snape.

I'm still convinced that Dumbledore knew what was coming (in a round-about way) if for no other reason than to provide myself comfort that "Severus, please" was not begging for his life and that Dumbledore is the kind of man who would willingly walk into that situation knowing he was going to have to give his life for those he loved most of all; Harry and the students.

Well, it could be a worst-case contingency plan, or a last minute decision, as well.

I also like to think that "I am not worried Harry, I am with you." was a signal to Harry that Dumbledore was Passing the torch so to speak - that the Harry leaving the cave was a different person and that he was ready to go on to carry out his mission in Dumbledore's absence.

I wonder, if you are right, why Harry was not told about this. It can be gotten around, but it has put Snape in a really bad position with the Order, Harry, and the law.

Now, Snape's activities before racing up to the Tower are also interesting. Flitwick wakes him and tells him what's going on. Snape takes him aside in his office and stuns him, putting him out of action and being careful not to really hurt him (strange, since this gent was a Dueling Champion in his youth and is probably close to the most powerful staff member after Dumbledore. Why not just kill him quickly?). After that, he makes sure to divert Hermione and Luna without hurting them in any way. Again, strange. The logical move for Severus Snape to take if he were a totally committed Death Eater would be to kill Hermione Granger and deprive Potter of the "more talented witch" he relies on to help him aggravate Voldemort and his Death Eaters. It just doesn't add up.

I agree. I also found his after-Tower activities odd, for a loyal Death Eater who has always hated Dumbledore and finally took his chance to murder him. Why does the situation pain him so? Perhaops Harry is truly not to be killed...but why prevent the other Death Eaters from having just a little bit of fun with Harry? It aslo doesn;t add up for me.

. . . . but it has put Snape in a really bad position with the Order, Harry, and the law.

Absolutely agreed! But it has put Snape in a very good position with Voldemort which is where I think he is going to be ultimately useful. If Voldemort didn't trust Snape before, this can only have helped his status with the D.E.'s and perhaps Voldy himself.

The trick is getting the information into the right hands now. It's not like he's going to show up and give his regular reports to the Order and expect to get out alive.

Ultimately though, I think will be able to gather and pass on crucial information, and then he will be killed. Either by Voldemort for being a spy and traitor or by a batallion of Aurors who see him only as a murderer.

Again, poor Snape.

Exactly. Snape said that he couldn't kill Harry in front of Dumbledore, but there were many situations where he could and it would've looked like a complete accident. I think that throughout the story Jo has shown us that people aren't completely good or completely bad... and that there is a grey area between good and evil that Snape resides in: he is sometimes mean and cruel to students, but he is in fact loyal and willing to do anything for Dumbledore and really does value his relationships with people.

I think that just about sums Snape up perfectly!:D He will come back to the good side if he can.

But it has put Snape in a very good position with Voldemort which is where I think he is going to be ultimately useful. If Voldemort didn't trust Snape before, this can only have helped his status with the D.E.'s and perhaps Voldy himself.

The trick is getting the information into the right hands now. It's not like he's going to show up and give his regular reports to the Order and expect to get out alive.

Ultimately though, I think will be able to gather and pass on crucial information, and then he will be killed. Either by Voldemort for being a spy and traitor or by a batallion of Aurors who see him only as a murderer.

Again, poor Snape.

What if Snape is able to somehow give it to Fawkes, who delivers it to the right hands. Fawkes has always been DD's posession and for some reason, I think that they are a bit like hippogriffs, they see you, if they like you and trust you, they will be yours. So if Fawkes has a message from Snape, I doubt that the order would object to Snape being good. IMO anyway. :D

What if Snape is able to somehow give it to Fawkes, who delivers it to the right hands. Fawkes has always been DD's posession and for some reason, I think that they are a bit like hippogriffs, they see you, if they like you and trust you, they will be yours. So if Fawkes has a message from Snape, I doubt that the order would object to Snape being good. IMO anyway. :D

Good heavens Latisha, that's probably the only thing I've ever heard that I think really would work!

If anyone can convince Harry of Snape's "goodness" it would be Fawkes! (The MoM and the Order are certainly one thing, but I think Harry is the one that really will have to be convinced.)

I think that the scene where Harry realizes that Snape is loyal to the Order will be when he sees Snape and sees Fawkes with Snape. I don't know why.. but I just keep remembering Dumbledore saying in CoS that Fawkes only comes to those really really loyal to him or something like that.

Good heavens Latisha, that's probably the only thing I've ever heard that I think really would work!

If anyone can convince Harry of Snape's "goodness" it would be Fawkes! (The MoM and the Order are certainly one thing, but I think Harry is the one that really will have to be convinced.)

Thanks :D

I think that is a good idea. I know Fawkes still has a role in Book 7 (well I hope anyway) and that would make perfect sense!!!

Does anyone think McGonnagal still thinks Snape is good deep down?

I think that is a good idea. I know Fawkes still has a role in Book 7 (well I hope anyway) and that would make perfect sense!!!

Does anyone think McGonnagal still thinks Snape is good deep down? I was shocked at how quickly everyone hated Snape at the end. I mean yeah they all thought he killed Dumbledore, but it was almost as if they never really thought he was good they were just taking Dumbledore's word for it. Shouldn't they trust Dumbledore more to know that things aren't always as they seem and to remember what he said and still trust his words even if they think he's dead. I hope some people start to rationalize things a little more. I mean during the first time I read it I immediately thought Dumbledore was dead and Snape horrible.. but a day later I started thikning that it can't be that simple. Jo said books 6 and 7 were really like one book which means that at the end of book six things would be like they normally are halfway through any other book: completely confusing with the reader and HARRY POTTER in a situation where they are looking at the wrong enemy.

HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOKS:
In book one we thought Snape was evil halfway through the book when really Quirrel was after the stone for Voldemort.
In book two we thought Malfoy opened the Chamber of Secrets when it was really Voldemort through Ginny.
In book three we thought Sirius Black was evil halfway through the book when it was really Wormtail posing as Scabbers.
In book four we thought Karkaroff and Snape were evil when really it was Crouch Jr posing as Mad-Eye Moody.


Just saying that halfway through the books.. nothing was cut and dry and the way we thought it.. that's the situation we are in at the end of book six.. just like we were halfway through any other book and that's why things aren't as they seem: Dumbledore isn't really dead.. and Snape isn't really a bad guy. Shouldn't the characters of the book learn from their mistakes in the previous years and realize that the bad guy isn't always the person they think it is right away?

Wow. Great points Parvati. There were changes in the villains part way through the books many times and it seems we all just believed what JK wanted us to! That must be why everyone was so quick to judge Snape. I, like you, took a few days to really decide that I thought Snape was not an evil murderer.

HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOKS:
In book one we thought Snape was evil halfway through the book when really Quirrel was after the stone for Voldemort.
In book two we thought Malfoy opened the Chamber of Secrets when it was really Voldemort through Ginny.
In book three we thought Sirius Black was evil halfway through the book when it was really Wormtail posing as Scabbers.
In book four we thought Karkaroff and Snape were evil when really it was Crouch Jr posing as Mad-Eye Moody.

The only problem is that HALFWAY through HBP we still thought Snape was good - and perhaps thought we had a clue why Dumbledore trusted him. Then we were given a shock at the end. Following the pattern of the previous books, Snape would be evil.

I don't know for SURE that he's good (I mean, that's THE question). I think it likely that he is and I certainly hope he is. But I still don't like him.

The only problem is that HALFWAY through HBP we still thought Snape was good - and perhaps thought we had a clue why Dumbledore trusted him. Then we were given a shock at the end. Following the pattern of the previous books, Snape would be evil.

I don't know for sure if he's good or not. I think it likely that he is and I certainly hope he is. But I still don't like him.

yes but halfway through HBP isnt actually halfway through the book. Jo said books six and seven are like one book so halfway through that one book would be at the end of book six.

yes but halfway through HBP isnt actually halfway through the book. Jo said books six and seven are like one book so halfway through that one book would be at the end of book six.

You're right about that! And it's what makes JKR and this whole world she's created so great; we just won't know for sure until we see it in print! (And it's killing me!)

You're right about that! And it's what makes JKR and this whole world she's created so great; we just won't know for sure until we see it in print! (And it's killing me!) I know.. all we do is speculate speculate argue debate speculate debate speculate all day long and we won't know anything for sure until we get our hands on book seven! I love it though!! I think Jo basically calling book six.. Harry & Snape since Snape is the Half-Blood Prince shows how important Harry - Snape will be in book seven! I can't wait!!!

Wow. Great points Parvati. There were changes in the villains part way through the books many times and it seems we all just believed what JK wanted us to! That must be why everyone was so quick to judge Snape. I, like you, took a few days to really decide that I thought Snape was not an evil murderer. haha yeah I actually kind of liked that myself, perhaps I will add that to my signature.

What if Snape is able to somehow give it to Fawkes, who delivers it to the right hands. Fawkes has always been DD's posession and for some reason, I think that they are a bit like hippogriffs, they see you, if they like you and trust you, they will be yours. So if Fawkes has a message from Snape, I doubt that the order would object to Snape being good. IMO anyway. :D Great point. I wonder if that's how Dumbledore knew in the first place. Much has been made of the fact that Snape is an accomplished occlumens and might have fooled DD as well as Riddle. But if Fawkes only comes to those loyal to DD, maybe DD used Fawkes to test Snape's loyalty. Maybe.

I also wonder about Snape's conversation with Quirrell in PS/SS. There is obviously more that goes on there than meets the eye, and more possibly than what Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa during the Spinner's End chapter in HBP.

Quirrell and Snape : Fill in the Blanks (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=90651)

There is a thread that assumes that Snape is "bad" if we can make it that cut and dry [good/bad] but I didn't find one that assumed Snape was good... so here it is.

This thread is for people who assume that Snape is good and loyal to Dumbledore [whether you believe Dumbledore is dead/alive]

What now?

Will Harry ever trust Snape again?
Will Snape be an important source of information now that he is so close to Voldemort?
Will Snape have to sacrifice his life for the Order to realize that he had never really left their side?

I think that Fawkes will show up on Snape's side and prove that he is loyal to Dumbledore. :)

I think Harry would not trust Snape at all any more. Snape alone could not persuade Harry otherwise. It would need to have many more authority figures claiming that Snape is good for Harry to believe it.

I think Harry would not trust Snape at all any more. Snape alone could not persuade Harry otherwise. It would need to have many more authority figures claiming that Snape is good for Harry to believe it.

I was shocked at how quickly everyone hated Snape at the end. I mean yeah they all thought he killed Dumbledore, but it was almost as if they never really thought he was good they were just taking Dumbledore's word for it. Shouldn't they trust Dumbledore more to know that things aren't always as they seem and to remember what he said and still trust his words even if they think he's dead. I hope some people start to rationalize things a little more. I mean during the first time I read it I immediately thought Dumbledore was dead and Snape horrible.. but a day later I started thikning that it can't be that simple. Jo said books 6 and 7 were really like one book which means that at the end of book six things would be like they normally are halfway through any other book: completely confusing with the reader and HARRY POTTER in a situation where they are looking at the wrong enemy.

HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOKS:
In book one we thought Snape was evil halfway through the book when really Quirrel was after the stone for Voldemort.
In book two we thought Malfoy opened the Chamber of Secrets when it was really Voldemort through Ginny.
In book three we thought Sirius Black was evil halfway through the book when it was really Wormtail posing as Scabbers.
In book four we thought Karkaroff and Snape were evil when really it was Crouch Jr posing as Mad-Eye Moody.


Just saying that halfway through the books.. nothing was cut and dry and the way we thought it.. that's the situation we are in at the end of book six.. just like we were halfway through any other book and that's why things aren't as they seem: Dumbledore isn't really dead.. and Snape isn't really a bad guy. Shouldn't the characters of the book learn from their mistakes in the previous years and realize that the bad guy isn't always the person they think it is right away?

This thread is for people who assume that Snape is good and loyal to Dumbledore [whether you believe Dumbledore is dead/alive]

Will Harry ever trust Snape again?
Will Snape be an important source of information now that he is so close to Voldemort?
Will Snape have to sacrifice his life for the Order to realize that he had never really left their side?

I can see both sides of the Snape situation. He has performed every task that Dumbledore sent him including occlumency lessons with Harry. Well, at least every task that we know of.
Will Harry trust Snape? At some point I think he is going to have to afterall if he is looking for horcruxes who is in a better position to help him? That said I believe that snape will try to help Harry, even if through a third party, by passing information to him.

I don't believe it will actually come to Snape dying for others to believe in him, maybe they just need a little more information to come to light (i.e why Dumbledore cont. to trust him so much.

I too deeply believe Snape is good. I predict in the next book that Snape will have a vat of Dumbledore's memory for the pensieve and Harry will be able to see that is was all planned out. I am keeping my fingers crossed that Snape will not have to sacrifice himself. I also agree that Fawkes is going to play a role in it. I don't sense Harry and Snape becoming best of friends but in the end i think we'll see a mutual respect between the two.

Harry will never trust snape!
HE KILLED DUMBLEDORE! People hello? HE IS EVIL!
so i guess i dont have to write the rest...

Another thing to consider for this theory is that converation that Hagrid overheard where Snape tells Dumbledore something about he doesn't want to do it anymore. Doesn't want to do what... Be Dumbledores spy?
If that was the case why would he tell him. He would have to know that Dumbledore would find a way to remove him from Howgwarts and Harry. If that were the case he could just start feeding him wrong information.

My personal opinion is that Snape didn't want to play the double role anymore and would rather go in to hiding like Harry's parents to save himself from Voldemort.

Harry will never trust snape!
HE KILLED DUMBLEDORE! People hello? HE IS EVIL!
so i guess i dont have to write the rest...
ummm an "assuming snape is good" thread is probably not the best place for you, my dear. :)

Dumbledore trusted Snape to say you don't trust Snape is going against Dumbledores beliefs. don't forget Harry could have killed Dumbledore forcing that potion down his throat but he knew that was the sacrifice that had to be done.

Another thing to consider for this theory is that converation that Hagrid overheard where Snape tells Dumbledore something about he doesn't want to do it anymore. Doesn't want to do what... Be Dumbledores spy?
If that was the case why would he tell him. He would have to know that Dumbledore would find a way to remove him from Howgwarts and Harry. If that were the case he could just start feeding him wrong information.

My personal opinion is that Snape didn't want to play the double role anymore and would rather go in to hiding like Harry's parents to save himself from Voldemort.ooh good idea! my thought was that what went on up on the tower had been planned by Snape and Dumbledore to an extent and it was extremely risky... and Snape didn't want to do it... it could've been...
(a) fake Dumbledore's death which is risky and Snape wouldn't want to do it because they'd have to rely on the premise that Snape's AK wouldn't work because he wouldn't really want to cause Dumbledore pain or death or anything, and also rely on perhaps Fawkes coming and lowering Dumbledore to the ground so he doesn't get hurt or some other way so that Dumbledore doesn't get hurt in the fall.
(b) Snape actually killing Dumbledore, on Dumbledore's order, to fulfill the Vow, save Draco.

both ways would result, if done properly, in extreme trust of Snape from the Death Eaters and Voldemort.. maybe Dumbledore thought this would let Voldy tell Snape about the horcruxes.

Dumbledore trusted Snape to say you don't trust Snape is going against Dumbledores beliefs. don't forget Harry could have killed Dumbledore forcing that potion down his throat but he knew that was the sacrifice that had to be done. exactly... I think Snape and Harry were shown in comparison to each other many many times in this book for a reason... they both value Albus Dumbledore extremely and probably promised to do anything he says. Snape was angry about what he was asked to do, which was probably the argument Hagrid overheard.

Another thing to consider is after Dumbledore was killed and Harry was chasing after Snape don't you think Snape could have easilly have cast a spell on Harry and brought him to Voldemort. I think the whole thing was staged to save Draco and keep Severus's cover.

Another thing to consider is after Dumbledore was killed and Harry was chasing after Snape don't you think Snape could have easilly have cast a spell on Harry and brought him to Voldemort. I think the whole thing was staged to save Draco and keep Severus's cover. exactly. he stopped that big death eater from using crucio on Harry, he told the other death eaters to leave him alone, he could've hurt flitwick or killed him instead of just stunning him i think?, he couldve attacked everyone else as he was leaving.. but he didnt!!

and it was even as though he was giving harry advice during their confrontation.. dont use unforgivable curses, and he needs to learn to close his mind through occlumency and use nonverbal spells if he stands any chance fighting voldy.

and it was even as though he was giving harry advice during their confrontation.. dont use unforgivable curses, and he needs to learn to close his mind through occlumency and use nonverbal spells if he stands any chance fighting voldy.
:clap:
I agree he could have caused alot of damage while he was fleeing if he really wanted to. But he didn't he used his moments of running to [I]stop[I] Harry not hurt him and continued to teach him even then just like Dumbledore hired him to do.

Parvati Snape you bring up an excellent point also when you point put that in the other books we are lead to assume the wrong people are guilty. I think that it is too hard to believe that after all those times when Snape had his chances to kill Harry that now all of the sudden he has turned completely to the dark lord. It is just too convienent.

Snape is a complex character and we can't pin point his loyalties to anyone in the books. For me his loyalties lay with is own sense of right and wrong not only that on his mood swings because i believe he is constantly pmsing

I think that it is too hard to believe that after all those times when Snape had his chances to kill Harry that now all of the sudden he has turned completely to the dark lord. It is just too convienent.

I agree. Also I think it odd that in almost every situation that Harry has thought Snape did something horrible Hermione and Ron agreed with him and they were wrong, and now the one time they don't agree with him he's right? Something doesn't seem right there. Snape has been suspected of a lot of things that he didn't do and this is probably just one more case of that.

"It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and to utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." Doesn't that sound like he might be talking abuot himself and how he is able to hide things from Voldemort and that's why Voldemort believes him to be on his side? "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him."

I also wonder about Snape's conversation with Quirrell in PS/SS. There is obviously more that goes on there than meets the eye, and more possibly than what Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa during the Spinner's End chapter in HBP.

Quirrell and Snape : Fill in the Blanks (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=90651)

This all just adds more and more to the speculation! There is just enough left out of the conversation with Quirrell for Snape to be batting for either team.

Personally, as Snape is an excellent Occulmens, I think it entirely possible that he had a pretty good idea what was going on with Quirrell - but Quirrellmort wasn't able to penetrate Snape's mind to know.

I kind of see it as if you believe Snape is good, you have to take everything he says to Bellatrix at Spinner's End as the lies of a spy. If you believe he was telling her the truth, you almost certainly have to believe Snape's evil.

Along the same lines - if Snape knew about (or had any inkling about) Quirrellmort and he IS good, he would have had to have told Dumbledore. (Which would, in some ways, explain the whole set-up with Dumbledore, Harry and the Mirror of Erised.)

This all just adds more and more to the speculation! There is just enough left out of the conversation with Quirrell for Snape to be batting for either team.

Personally, as Snape is an excellent Occulmens, I think it entirely possible that he had a pretty good idea what was going on with Quirrell - but Quirrellmort wasn't able to penetrate Snape's mind to know.

I kind of see it as if you believe Snape is good, you have to take everything he says to Bellatrix at Spinner's End as the lies of a spy. If you believe he was telling her the truth, you almost certainly have to believe Snape's evil.

Along the same lines - if Snape knew about (or had any inkling about) Quirrellmort and he IS good, he would have had to have told Dumbledore. (Which would, in some ways, explain the whole set-up with Dumbledore, Harry and the Mirror of Erised.)

Well, I'll admit, it does seem to fit with the story, I just find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would put Harry in such a position, what if Quirrellmort had used the Avada Kedavra curse instead - it would have rebounded on him again. Wow, I guess it does fit. :tu: Excellent post. :D

I don't know, man. From canon alone, and my personal opinion, I believe he's evil. He's just so mean. Yeah, he came to the good side and Dumbledore trusted him completely, but (once again) judging from canon alone he seems to be in league with the Death Eaters still.

For example, Spinner's End. That chapter could very easily be read both ways: Snape acting on Voldy's orders and on DD's orders. However, just by reading on the surface, he seems evil. He could very well be with the Order, but if, in fact, there wasn't any type of plan about he having to kill Dumbledore on DD's own orders, then he did something to gain victory for Voldy's side, which in the surface, could be seen as evil.

He could also have done that because DD told him to do it and it was the plan all the way. Then again, not once in The Lightning Struck Tower do we get the sense from Harry that he saw anything in Snape's eyes that could resemble regret about what he was getting ready to do or did. However, I'm not sure if there was anything about what Harry saw in Snape's eyes, whether it be regret of triumph. I'm not sure.

So, to stop babbling, I think he's not good. He will probably die at the hands of his "friends" (DE's) if, in fact, he is still on their side. So, as you can tell from my post, I have no idea.

Well, I'll admit, it does seem to fit with the story, I just find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would put Harry in such a position, what if Quirrellmort had used the Avada Kedavra curse instead - it would have rebounded on him again. Wow, I guess it does fit. :tu: Excellent post. :D

I know what you mean. I grit my teeth at the thought that Dumbledore would intentionally put Harry in harms way, but there are things I keep coming back to.

1) Dumbledore knew about the Prophecy - literally from day one - the moment it left Trelawney's mouth.

2)Dumbledore knew the Potter's were being hunted by Voldemort - so he knew how Voldemort was interpreting what he knew of the prophecy.

3)Harry even had the feeling that Dumbledore was LETTING him face Voldemort.

4)Even though Dumbledore admits that he has never studied divination and initially had a proclivity not to allow the subject to continue, he seemed to understand what it meant that Voldemort had chose to put stock in it - that it MAKES it true.

5)He tells Harry that he is absolutely the only one with a chance to defeat Voldemort - in other words, Dumbledore KNOWS it is so.

6)If Dumbledore firmly believes that Harry MUST be the one who will defeat Voldemort, he would HAVE to eventually let Harry face him. He knows that there is nothing he can do himself to prevent it.

7)Dumbledore would have no way of knowing how or when the "final battle" will come and all he can do is help, teach, and watch over Harry as the various confrontations occur.

I kind of see it like the Snape situation - there are several ways to look at it and not interfering too much in events to come might be the lesser evil versus totally protecting Harry and leaving him vulnerable later on. (Especially given that Dumbledore admits that is exactly what he did by not telling Harry about the prophecy sooner.)


. . . I have no idea.

Don't worry - neither do we! Which is why we are all here.

I don't know, man. From canon alone, and my personal opinion, I believe he's evil. He's just so mean. Yeah, he came to the good side and Dumbledore trusted him completely, but (once again) judging from canon alone he seems to be in league with the Death Eaters still.

For example, Spinner's End. That chapter could very easily be read both ways: Snape acting on Voldy's orders and on DD's orders. However, just by reading on the surface, he seems evil. He could very well be with the Order, but if, in fact, there wasn't any type of plan about he having to kill Dumbledore on DD's own orders, then he did something to gain victory for Voldy's side, which in the surface, could be seen as evil. On the surface? You can never read a Harry Potter book and expect to fully understand -- just on the surface.:p No but seriously I think that you could tell that he lied many times during this chapter and that suggests that he is on Dumbledore's side. he said Harry seemed untalented and just lucky with talented friends with Snape knows how many times Harry has faced Voldemort, knows Harry could make a patronus at such a yougn age, and knows how talented he is as seeker.
He could also have done that because DD told him to do it and it was the plan all the way. Then again, not once in The Lightning Struck Tower do we get the sense from Harry that he saw anything in Snape's eyes that could resemble regret about what he was getting ready to do or did. However, I'm not sure if there was anything about what Harry saw in Snape's eyes, whether it be regret of triumph. I'm not sure. Unlike most chapters in the book, this chapter wasn't through Harry's eyes kind of. We might be getting a slightly biased view of Snape because we usually see him with Harry. For all we know, Snape has pretended to hate Harry this whole time in case he runs into Voldemort who he doesn't want to use legilimency on him to see him being buddy buddy with the guy that the wizarding world said killed Voldemort. And I don't think he would show regret here in front on Narcissa and Bellatrix.. he was using a lot of Occlumency and completely hiding his feelings most of the time, I think. But of course we won't know until book seven. :)

I totally agree that the books could be seen either way. That's the brilliance of Jo's writing. You could really argue it either way. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to support Snape being on Voldemort's side or Dumbledore's side. Jo has carefully planned out her books so that when Snape did kill Dumbledore you wouldn't be able to go back and create an argument for either side.
Except for the Spinner's end chapter. In this chapter Snape gives a very convincing argument for him being on Voldemort's side. To me this says that Snape is good, because it seems that Jo is trying to convince us that Snape is on the bad guys side. She doesn't give us a good argument at all for Dumbeldore trusting Snape, in fact we still don't have any idea why Dumbledore trusted Snape. So to me since Jo gave us a convicing argument for Snape being bad, and not telling us why Dumbledore trusted Snape, I'm going to say that he is actually good. I hope that makes sense.

"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." (Half Blood Prince 595-596)

This was the line directly before Snape performed the Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore. I do not think it is at all a coincidence that JK used a form of the same 2 adjectives (revulsion and hatred) to describe Harry as he was making Dumbledore drink the potion in the cave. They both were in agony over what they had to do!!

I totally agree that the books could be seen either way. That's the brilliance of Jo's writing. You could really argue it either way. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to support Snape being on Voldemort's side or Dumbledore's side. Jo has carefully planned out her books so that when Snape did kill Dumbledore you wouldn't be able to go back and create an argument for either side.
Except for the Spinner's end chapter. In this chapter Snape gives a very convincing argument for him being on Voldemort's side. To me this says that Snape is good, because it seems that Jo is trying to convince us that Snape is on the bad guys side. She doesn't give us a good argument at all for Dumbeldore trusting Snape, in fact we still don't have any idea why Dumbledore trusted Snape. So to me since Jo gave us a convicing argument for Snape being bad, and not telling us why Dumbledore trusted Snape, I'm going to say that he is actually good. I hope that makes sense. that makes perfect sense! it follows the logic that halfway through every book we completely are misinterpreting the situation along with harry. and since Jo said that books six and seven are just one book, then halfway through this "one book" would be the end of book six.. where we would be completely misinterpreting the situation and things aren't as they seem.. so Snape isn't evil as he seems.

halfway through other books:
PS/SS: halfway through this book we, along with Harry, thought that Snape was bad and after the Sorcerer's Stone. It was actually Quirrel being used by Voldemort.
CoS: halfway through book two, we thought Malfoy was opening the Chamber of Secrets when it was really Ginny Weasley being used by Voldemort.
PoA: halfway through this book we thought that Sirius Black had betrayed Harry's parents and was now after Harry when it was really Peter Pettigrew aka Scabbers who did the betraying and who Sirius was after.
GoF: halfway through this book we thought that Karkaroff and Snape were bad and had put Harry's name in the Goblet of FIre when really it was Crouch Jr as Moody working for Voldemort.

just some examples that in the past things haven't been as they seem -- why take Jo's words at face value and beieve Dumbledore is dead and Snape is bad now.. especially when Jo said books six and seven were basically one book since the conclusion in book six isn't necessarily what we think it is.

IExcept for the Spinner's end chapter. In this chapter Snape gives a very convincing argument for him being on Voldemort's side. To me this says that Snape is good, because it seems that Jo is trying to convince us that Snape is on the bad guys side. She doesn't give us a good argument at all for Dumbeldore trusting Snape, in fact we still don't have any idea why Dumbledore trusted Snape. So to me since Jo gave us a convicing argument for Snape being bad, and not telling us why Dumbledore trusted Snape, I'm going to say that he is actually good. I hope that makes sense.

To me Yes it makes sense.
We don't see alot of Snape outside of the school so all we really get is his repressed(barely) hatred of Harry. He seems to carry this over the few times we've seen him out of school too (OOTP and HBP). Maybe he truly does hate harry for something that happened between him and James or maybe he is just a really good actor and trying to make everyone (i.e. Voldemort) think he hates Harry so he can continue his job.

Sorry That drifted but what I was trying to say is that everytime we think Snape has done something Horrible it ends up that 9 times out of 10 we were wrong. So who's to say this time is any different? Then again it could just be Jo lulling us into complacency.

I’m of the opinion that Snape is Evil, basically evil.

He is a spy. Firstly he took the post of professor at Hogwarts on the order of Voldemort to spy Dumbledore. Snape said so in HP6-Chap.2. He was a Death Eater and Dumbledore knew it. What has Snape told Dumbledore that made Dumbledore trust Snape so much as to vouch for him before the Ministry keeping Snape out of Azkaban.

Well, we know that Dumbledore’s weakness is to think that in any man, however evil he may be there is still a seed of goodness left, and Dumbledore always try to grow that seed by giving him a second chance. Dumbledore weakness is well known in the wizarding world. Surely Snape has played on it.

We know that Snape has confessed that it was him who passed to Voldemort the information on the prophecy (the first part) that made Voldemort hunt down Lily and James . Then Snape told Dumbledore he hadn’t realised what he was doing that he was sorry he had done it and sorry that Lily and James were dead.. Perhaps to strengthen his statement as he was sorry for what he had done, he had told Dumbledore that he was "desperately" in love with Lily, he would have given Dumbledore that piece of memory where James hung Snape in the air and Lily intervened in his favour. That was why that piece of memory is in the pensieve of Dumbledore. Dumbledore would have overwhemed under this piece of lie, half lie, distorted truth.

Dumbledore would have asked Snape to spy Voldemort for him, for the Order of the Phoenix. But did Dumbledore know that Snape works also as a spy for Voldemort ? I don’t think he knows. Snape would have played his role very well. Dumbledore trusted Snape until he discovered by Harry that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa Malfoy (HP6-Chap.17). Therefore the argument in the forest overheard by Hagrid (HP6-Chap.19).

I think that Snape is basically evil, he has never been faithful to Dumbledore.

1. When one is faithful to Dumbledore, one would not make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco fulfil a mission for Voldemort, knowing perfectly well that a mission for Voldemort might mean to kill Dumbledore or Harry at the end.

2. Snape has made the Unbreakable Vow willingly on his own, without being forced to. Bellatrix and Narcissa would never dare to report to Vodemort, had Snape refused. They have been told to say nothing to anyone, Narcissa said so in HP6-Chap.2.

3. Snape has kept this silent from Dumbledore perhaps until the argument in the forest. Then Snape would have surely told Dumbledore « part of the truth, a distorted truth » and would have said that he was sorry for what he had done, and that he didn’t know what the mission was and so on …

4. A detail we must notice also : Snape never speaks of Voldemort as « You-Know-who » or « He-who-must-not-be-named » like other « ordinary » people ... He always calls Voldemort « The Dark Lord ».
« The Dark Lord has used Inferi in the past » said Snape in the first lesson of DADA. (HP6-Chap.9)
« Do not say the Dark Lord’s name ! » said Snape to Harry in HP5-Chap.24.
« Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord ? I’ve only ever heard Death Eaters call him that. » Harry asked Snape in a lesson of Occlumency. (HP5-Chap.26) These are JKR's touches in her painting of the character of Snape.

The other characters (but Harry) in the book, members of the Order (and most of the readers also) persist to think that Snape is « Good » just because Dumbledore trusts Snape. They say : « Dumbledore trusts Snape. That should be good enough for us. »

But Dumbledore may be wrong. Anybody may make mistakes. Dumbledore himself (or JKR via Dumbledore's speech) said to Harry :
« Naturally, I think I’m right, but as I have proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being – forgive me – rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be corespondingly huger. » (HP6-Chap.10)

JKR said in an interview : « I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books 5 and 6 that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore exemplifies that. » (The Leaky cauldron 2005)

If the error of Voldemort is to despise Love. The error of Dumbledore is to think too much good of people.

In my opinion, Snape is evil, basically evil by and up to the end of HP6. In HP7, Snape might change, or act differently, that will depend on how Voldemort will react to the initiative of Snape by rescueing Draco.

Or Snape might be bound to protect Harry by some magical « Pact ». (This is only a theory of mine I’ve explained in The enigmatic "Severus ... please" under topic "Dumbledore’s pleas" page 7, dated May 18th).

My opinion is: Snape is basically Evil. He won't come to the Good side, by hatred, by pride and other reasons. But he will protect Harry because of the "Pact" I said above. He will be bound to protect Harry. But he is still basically Evil.

I may be wrong.

I think all of those are clues that Snape is Evil.

I also think that a list can easily be comprised to suggest Snape is Good.


This is JK Rowling's brilliance and this is why this debate will never be settled and will be split nearly 50/50 until book seven... there are implanted clues throughout the series pushing us to both sides of the spectrum so that nobody really knows until book seven. I love it! :)

I think all of those are clues that Snape is Evil.

I also think that a list can easily be comprised to suggest Snape is Good.

This is JK Rowling's brilliance and this is why this debate will never be settled and will be split nearly 50/50 until book seven... there are implanted clues throughout the series pushing us to both sides of the spectrum so that nobody really knows until book seven. I love it! :)

That is a very good idea. How can we make (technically) a list of clues that suggest Snape is Good or Bad. Can we present things in tabular form (technically speaking) ?

Personally I think that Snape is on Snape's side. He has aided both sides and they both know that he has helped the otherside. He will do what is best for him and will end up on the side that is to his advantage. At this point he has done away with the head of the "good side" and before it is over he will most likely help to do away with the head of the "bad side." Once this has happened then he will be the most powerful wizard for a time. For some reason, maybe just because of the personality we have seen, I just can't see Snape being "good." He has such a nasty way about him.

He may help Harry because he will benefit himself. In any case, I think in the end he will look like he is on the "good side" but not exactly.

Personally I think that Snape is on Snape's side. He has aided both sides and they both know that he has helped the otherside. He will do what is best for him and will end up on the side that is to his advantage. At this point he has done away with the head of the "good side" and before it is over he will most likely help to do away with the head of the "bad side." Once this has happened then he will be the most powerful wizard for a time. For some reason, maybe just because of the personality we have seen, I just can't see Snape being "good." He has such a nasty way about him.

He may help Harry because he will benefit himself. In any case, I think in the end he will look like he is on the "good side" but not exactly.


I would very much like to share your idea. But I coudn't see what is profitable for him, at this stage, when he accepted to make the Unbeakable Vow with Narcissa. However, when Voldemort would be eliminated, Snape would be on his own, that's sure.


that makes perfect sense! it follows the logic that halfway through every book we completely are misinterpreting the situation along with harry. and since Jo said that books six and seven are just one book, then halfway through this "one book" would be the end of book six.. where we would be completely misinterpreting the situation and things aren't as they seem.. so Snape isn't evil as he seems.

halfway through other books:
PS/SS: halfway through this book we, along with Harry, thought that Snape was bad and after the Sorcerer's Stone. It was actually Quirrel being used by Voldemort.
CoS: halfway through book two, we thought Malfoy was opening the Chamber of Secrets when it was really Ginny Weasley being used by Voldemort.
PoA: halfway through this book we thought that Sirius Black had betrayed Harry's parents and was now after Harry when it was really Peter Pettigrew aka Scabbers who did the betraying and who Sirius was after.
GoF: halfway through this book we thought that Karkaroff and Snape were bad and had put Harry's name in the Goblet of FIre when really it was Crouch Jr as Moody working for Voldemort.

just some examples that in the past things haven't been as they seem -- why take Jo's words at face value and beieve Dumbledore is dead and Snape is bad now.. especially when Jo said books six and seven were basically one book since the conclusion in book six isn't necessarily what we think it is.


Through 5/7 books (from book 1 to book 5) We all have thought that Snape is Good, only because Dumbledore trusts him(no significant proofs at all). Then at the beginning the book 6, we witnessed Snape make an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa Malfoy, and by the end of book 6, it was Snape who killed Dumbledore.

I personally don't think that Snape can be good, simply because he killed Dumbledore (probably - I know there are theories out there that say he may have been using a non-verbal spell whilst saying the AK curse). Even if Dumbledore had told Snape that he should kill him if it's necessary, that still wouldn't be good enough in my opinion.

Plus, I don't buy the 'Snape killed Dumbledore under Dumbledore's orders' theory, anyway; Dumbledore really doesn't seem like the sort of person to ask someone to commit murder. It is cold-blooded murder, one of the most horrible crimes - not a little 'stunning' spell, or a jellylegs jinx.

I think all of those are clues that Snape is Evil.

I also think that a list can easily be comprised to suggest Snape is Good.

This is JK Rowling's brilliance and this is why this debate will never be settled and will be split nearly 50/50 until book seven... there are implanted clues throughout the series pushing us to both sides of the spectrum so that nobody really knows until book seven. I love it! :)

I think that's a very good idea.

I've made here a list of details which prove that SNAPE IS BAD, that Snape is on the Bad side, VOLDEMORT'S SIDE.
I'would be glad if other members of the forum put up their theories, or details (with backgrounds/quotations) showing Snape GOOD OR BAD


1. Snape is a Death Eater. He has the Dark Mark on his left forearm he showed to Cornelius Fudge. (HP4-Chap.36)

2. Snape always calls Voldemort « The Dark Lord » as all other Death Eaters do. He never calls « He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named » or « You-Know-Who » like other people non-death-eaters.
"Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord ? I've only ever heard Death Eaters call him that" Harry asked Snape in HP5-Chap.26.

3. Snape took the post at Hogwarts under the order of Voldemort, before the fall of Voldemmort. He was first a spy for Voldemort. He said so to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HP6, Chap.2.

4. Dumbledore thought the DADA job would "bring out the worst in Snape".

5. Snape repeted to Voldemort what he has heard of the prophecy, which made Voldemort hunt down Lily and James. Dumbledore said so in HP6-Chap.25.

6. Many people think that Snape told Dumbledore that he was in love with Lily, and that he was sorry for Lily and Jame's death. Perhaps Snape would have given Dumbledore the piece of memory in which James hung him in the air and Lily intervened in favour of Snape, to support his saying that he was in love with Lily. That was why that piece of memory is in Dumbledore's pensieve. Snape had touched the weak point of Dumbledor that made Dumbledore trusted him. But according to JKR, Snape is "unable" of Love.
"JKR thinks that that the thought of Snape in love is a "very horrible idea" and is stunned that someone wonders if Snape might fall in love. We will find out why in book 7." (WBUR interview 1999)

7. Snape showed only hatred and never a fragment of pity towards Harry, the one he has made an orphan. That shows he never regreted what he had done, never regreted Lily and Jame's death.

8. Snape despised the other members of the Order of the Phoenix, specially Mundungus he called « a smelly sneak-thief ». He shocked Harry, who said: « I thought Snape and Mundungus were on the same side ? Shoudn’t he be upset Mundungus has been arrested ? »(HP6-Chap.21)

9. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco fulfill his mission for Voldemort, without being forced to and knowing perfectly well that a mission for Voldemort might mean that he would have to kill Dumbledore.(HP6-Chap.2)

10. Snape has kept this Unbreakable Vow secret from Dumbledore. Dumbledore learnt about it by Harry. Harry eavedropped the conversation between Snape and Draco on the Unbreakable Vow in HP6-Chap.15. He told Arthur Weasley in Chap.16 and Dumbledore in Chap.17. Hagrid heard the argument between Dumbledore and Snape in Chap.19.
Harry said: "So Dumbledore had argued with Snape. In spite of all he had told Harry, in spite of his insistence that he trusted Snape completely, he had lost his temper with him..." Which means that the piece of information Harry gave Dumbledore (the Unbreakable Vow) was new to Dumbledore.

11. When Snape killed Dumbledore, « there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. » (HP6-Chap.27) That shows Snape has never been on Dumbledore's side, he hated Dumbledore.

12. JKR: "You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." (Royal Albert Hall, 2003)

13. "JKR jokingly tells us that she finds it depressing that we love Snape and her bad boys (Lucius Malfoy)." (Edinburgh Book Festival 2004)

14. Most people think that Snape is good just because Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that should be good enough for them, without any significant proof. But Dumbledore may be wrong. Everybody may make mistakes. He himself (or JKR through Dumbledore's speech) said so, in HP6-Chap.10:
" I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger", Dumbledore said to Harry.
And JKR said: "I think that it has been demonstrated, particularly in books 5 and 6, that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes, and I think that Dumbledore exemplifies that." (Leaky Cauldron 2005)

1. When one is faithful to Dumbledore, one would not make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco fulfil a mission for Voldemort, knowing perfectly well that a mission for Voldemort might mean to kill Dumbledore or Harry at the end.

Unless of course he had orders from Dumbledore to protect Draco. Also, if you re-read the Unbreakable vow scene, you'll notice that Snape has not trouble saying yes to the questions involving the protection of Draco, but when asked if he will do the job for Draco, he twitches his hand and hesitates.

3. Snape has kept this silent from Dumbledore perhaps until the argument in the forest. Then Snape would have surely told Dumbledore « part of the truth, a distorted truth » and would have said that he was sorry for what he had done, and that he didn’t know what the mission was and so on …

Actually, there is no mention of whether or not Dumbledore knew about it or not. I think Snape tole him immediately, and Dumbledore told him he had to continue protecting Draco. The argument in the forrest, where Snape said he "didn't want to do it anymore", he was saying he didn't want to go on with the vow, and would rather die.

9. When Snape killed Dumbledore, « there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. » (HP6-Chap.27) That shows Snape has never been on Dumbledore's side.


I think he hated himself for what he had to do, and was repulsed by it.

Unless of course he had orders from Dumbledore to protect Draco. Also, if you re-read the Unbreakable vow scene, you'll notice that Snape has not trouble saying yes to the questions involving the protection of Draco, but when asked if he will do the job for Draco, he twitches his hand and hesitates.

Actually, there is no mention of whether or not Dumbledore knew about it or not. I think Snape tole him immediately, and Dumbledore told him he had to continue protecting Draco. The argument in the forrest, where Snape said he "didn't want to do it anymore", he was saying he didn't want to go on with the vow, and would rather die.

I think he hated himself for what he had to do, and was repulsed by it.


1. We have no proof that Dumbledore had asked Snape to protect Draco. As for Snape had no trouble saying "yes" to the question involving the protection of Draco. Why shoud he have trouble, if it was a "pleasure" for him to protect Draco, to help Draco fulfill the mission for Voldemort, if he is a Voldemort's man through and through ?

2. Harry heard the conversation between Snape and Draco in Chap.15. He told Arthur Weasley in Chapter 16. It's was an information new to Weasley. Arthur didn't say that he knew it.
Harry told Dumbledore in Chap. 17.
And the argument in the forest beween Dumbledore and Snape overheard by Hagrid is in Chap.19.
Harry said after that: "So Dumbledore had argued with Snape. In spite of all he had told Harry, in spite of his insistence that he trusted Snape completely, he had lost his temper with him..." Which means that the piece of information Harry gave Dumbledore (the Unbreakable Vow) was new to Dumbledore.
The Unbreakable Vow was made in Chap.2, and the argument in the forest is in Chap.19, nearly at the end of the school year. And you think that Snape has told Dumbledore "immediately" of the Unbreakable Vow he has made with Narcissa Malfoy?

As for "Snape hated himself for what he had to do, and was repulsed by it."
There is no proof to support that theory.

1. Snape is a Death Eater. He has the Dark Mark on his left forearm he showed to Cornelius Fudge. (HP4-Chap.36)

2. Snape alwyas calls Voldemort « The Dark Lord » as all other Death Eaters do. He never calls « He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named » or « You-Know-Who » like other people non-death-eaters.
"Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord ? I've only ever heard Death Eaters call him that" Harry asked Snape in HP5-Chap.26.

3. Snape took the post at Hogwarts under the order of Voldemort, before the fall of Voldemmort. He was first a spy for Voldemort. He said so to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HP6, Chap.2.

4. Snape repeted to Voldemort what he has heard of the prophecy, which made Voldemort hunt down Lily and James. Dumbledore said so in HP6-Chap.25.

5. Snape showed only hatred and never a fragment of pity towards Harry, the one he has made an orphan. That shows he never regreted what he had done, never regreted Lily and Jame's death.

6. Snape despised the other members of the Order of the Phoenix, specially Mundungus he called « a smelly sneak-thief ». He shocked Harry, who said: « I thought Snape and Mundungus were on the same side ? Shoudn’t he be upset Mundungus has been arrested ? »

7. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco fulfill his mission for Voldemort, without being forced to and knowing perfectly well that a mission for Voldemort might mean that he would have to kill Dumbledore.

8. Snape has kept this Unbreakable Vow secret from Dumbledore. Dumbledore learnt about it by Harry. Harry eavedropped the conversation between Snape and Draco on the Unbreakable Vow in HP6-Chap.15. He told Arthur Weasley in Chap.16 and Dumbledore in Chap.17.
Harry said: "So Dumbledore had argued with Snape. In spite of all he had told Harry, in spite of his insistence that he trusted Snape completely, he had lost his temper with him..." Which means that the piece of information Harry gave Dumbledore (the Unbreakable Vow) was new to Dumbledore (HP6-Chap.19).

9. When Snape killed Dumbledore, « there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. » (HP6-Chap.27) That shows Snape has never been on Dumbledore's side, he hated Dumbledore.

10. JKR jokingly tells us that she finds it depressing that we love Snape and her bad boys (Lucius Malfoy). (Edinburgh Book Festival 2004)
I love you list, Khanh. I would like to add one more to it if you don't mind.

11. In an interview, we have the following exchange.
MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?
JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.
JKR is calling Snape guilty, even more guilty than Voldemort, for his actions. That doesn't sound like something you would say of a good guy.

I love you list, Khanh. I would like to add one more to it if you don't mind.

11. In an interview, we have the following exchange.

JKR is calling Snape guilty, even more guilty than Voldemort, for his actions. That doesn't sound like something you would say of a good guy.


Thank you very much; As you see, I'm in favour of " SNAPE IS BAD "

All the characters in the books (except Harry), the members of the Order of the Phoenix as well, and most of the readers on this forum, are in favour of " Snape is Good ", juste because "Dumbledore trusts Snape, that should be good enough for us". without any significant proofs.
But Dumbledore may be wrong. He himself said so. (HP6-Chap.10) and JKR said so too. (Leaky Cauldron 2005)

I've added some more details in may previous list.

I would like to think that Snape will be "good" by the end of book 7 due to the fact that these books seem to be about redemption and I still belive that there is some good in him even if he did kill Albus Dumbledore.(May he Rest in Peace) Although after reading some of the other posts on this thread and thinking about it I would have to say that I agree with the Snape is bad and won't come back. I agree mostly with the coomment that Snape has always treated harry with hatred after he made him an orphan.

6. Many people think that Snape told Dumbledore that he was in love with Lily, and that he was sorry for Lily and Jame's death. Perhaps Snape would have given Dumbledore the piece of memory in which James hung him in the air and Lily intervened in favour of Snape, to support his saying that he was in love with Lily. That was why that piece of memory is in Dumbledore's pensieve. Snape had touched the weak point of Dumbledor that made Dumbledore trusted him. But according to JKR, Snape is "unable" of Love.
"JKR thinks that that the thought of Snape in love is a "very horrible idea" and is stunned that someone wonders if Snape might fall in love. We will find out why in book 7." (WBUR interview 1999)
She didn't say that Snape wasn't unable to love. She was stunned that someone asked the question about Snape having a pattern of redemption. Though you have a potential evidence against Snape loving Lily, there have been two other incidences in which JKR has deliberately avoided answering whether or not Snape loved Lily. If its such a horrible idea and so unlikely why hasn't she just said so?

Personally i think that snape is bad, i have never trusted him and i've always thought dumbledore was making a mistake to trust him

I've made here a list of details which prove that SNAPE IS BAD, that Snape is on rhe Bad side, Voldemort's side.

Ah, it's been a while since we had a nice list on this thread. :tu:

For the record, I think Snape is good. I also think some of your evidence is inconclusive. (Not that mine is any better, mind you. Rowling wants us unsure, and she has accomplished it brilliantly.)
1. Snape is a Death Eater. He has the Dark Mark on his left forearm he showed to Cornelius Fudge. (HP4-Chap.36)
In the same book, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) states that some spots never come off. If indeed the Dark Mark is a permanent spell that cannot be removed and does not disappear as the result of a change of heart, the presence of the mark in no way contradicts Dumbledore's testimony that Snape is no more a Death Eater than he, in the Pensieve memory. (Also GoF).

2. Snape always calls Voldemort « The Dark Lord » as all other Death Eaters do. He never calls « He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named » or « You-Know-Who » like other people non-death-eaters.
So does Trelawney. However, there's an even better explanation. If he's good, he's a double agent. A great way to get into trouble with the boss would be to call him the wrong name.

3. Snape took the post at Hogwarts under the order of Voldemort, before the fall of Voldemmort. He was first a spy for Voldemort. He said so to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HP6, Chap.2.

We do not know the dates. Personally, I guess Snape approached Dumbledore (on his own initiative) within three months of Harry's birth, as soon as Voldemort had figured out who the boys were. And I think Voldemort sent Snape to get a job at Hogwarts the spring or summer before he go the job, when the DADA job position fell empty that year, which would be many months later.

4. Dumbledore thought the DADA job would "bring out the worst in Snape".

This is taken from an interview, not the books. I think this was Rowling's coy way of saying Dumbledore did not give the job to Snape because he was aware of the curse, pre-HBP (when the existence of an actualy curse, made by Voldemort, was revealed). The curse brought out the worst in several teachers, including Lupin, who I hope we can agree is not at all evil; yet he ended up posing the threat to the lives and well-being of the Trio.
5. Snape repeted to Voldemort what he has heard of the prophecy, which made Voldemort hunt down Lily and James. Dumbledore said so in HP6-Chap.25.
No doubt, and this was an evil act, as was his original decision to join the Death Eaters, and possibly other actions he took as a Death Eater of which we are not at present aware. My opinion that Snape is good is based on Dumbledore's statements that Snape felt remorse and decided to return to the good side. (And also, that this fits the events, IMO, as I do plan to explain!)


6. Many people think that Snape told Dumbledore that he was in love with Lily, and that he was sorry for Lily and Jame's death. Perhaps Snape would have given Dumbledore the piece of memory in which James hung him in the air and Lily intervened in favour of Snape, to support his saying that he was in love with Lily. That was why that piece of memory is in Dumbledore's pensieve. Snape had touched the weak point of Dumbledor that made Dumbledore trusted him. But according to JKR, Snape is "unable" of Love.
"JKR thinks that that the thought of Snape in love is a "very horrible idea" and is stunned that someone wonders if Snape might fall in love. We will find out why in book 7." (WBUR interview 1999)
This is not at all a statement that Snape was never/could never be, in love. It is in fact a sneaky way to get out of answering the question without a flat 'no comment'.

In particular, if Snape did love Lily, it worked out very badly for both of them. ;)

7. Snape showed only hatred and never a fragment of pity towards Harry, the one he has made an orphan. That shows he never regreted what he had done, never regreted Lily and Jame's death.

I have a good deal of respect for this position, I just find that it does not fit with my experiences about human psychology. Feeling guilty about something, sadly, often makes people nastier rather than nicer people.

8. Snape despised the other members of the Order of the Phoenix, specially Mundungus he called « a smelly sneak-thief ». He shocked Harry, who said: « I thought Snape and Mundungus were on the same side ? Shoudn’t he be upset Mundungus has been arrested ? »(HP6-Chap.21)
Harry had to be restrained from causing Dung physical harm himself; Dung's membership in the Order did not stop Harry at all.

9. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco fulfill his mission for Voldemort, without being forced to and knowing perfectly well that a mission for Voldemort might mean that he would have to kill Dumbledore.(HP6-Chap.2)
Why do you think evil Snape did this?

10. Snape has kept this Unbreakable Vow secret from Dumbledore.
This is noit clearl that sentence could have ended differently. (Annoying Rowling!) There is a piece evidence that could point to Dumbledore knowing something about the Vow. Yhe point in "A Sluggish Memory" where Harry has told Dumbledore all that he overheard between Snape and Draco, and questioned Dumbledore, and Dumbledore has responded that Harry ought to consider that he may understand more than Harry. This could be about the Vow. A second point which may indicate Dumbledore actually knew the precise wording of the Vow occurs on the Tower, when Snape comes through the door. One of the Death Eaters says 'The boy seems unable', and Dumbledore interrupts him before he can finish the sentence...perhaps because he knows Snape must kill him if it seems to the other Death Eaters that Draco will fail?

11. When Snape killed Dumbledore, « there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. » (HP6-Chap.27) That shows Snape has never been on Dumbledore's side, he hated Dumbledore.
The parallel to Harry in the Cave has alrady been remarked upon; I note you said there was no evidence for that theory. My response is that, since we are not dealing with an omniscient narrator who tells us what Snape is thinking and feeling, there is no evidence for yours either.

12. JKR: "You shouldn't think [Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." (Royal Albert Hall, 2003)
Nice is not the word I would use to describe him either.

13. "JKR jokingly tells us that she finds it depressing that we love Snape and her bad boys (Lucius Malfoy)." (Edinburgh Book Festival 2004)
I'm not in love...I just relate to the poor guy.

" I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger", Dumbledore said to Harry.
And JKR said: "I think that it has been demonstrated, particularly in books 5 and 6, that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes, and I think that Dumbledore exemplifies that." (Leaky Cauldron 2005)
I will wait for Book 7 to see what Dumbledore's big mistake was. I don't think it was Snape, though. I find his decision to proceed with the Horcrux mission without investigating Harry's story about Draco odd, myself.

Oh, this is going to be one monster post, as noone posted while I wrote up all of the below...but one good list deserves another. Reasons I think Snape is Good:

1) Snape saved Harry from Quirrell’s curse in PS/SS; he may have attempted to prevent another attempt the time he was a Quidditch ref.
2) Snape has taught Harry at least two things which saved Harry’s life (Expelliarmus, and the use of a bezoar).
3) Snape was distressed when he learned Ginny Weasley was taken into the Chamber. (He gripped a chair so hard when he heard the news that his knuckles turned white).
4) Snape was concerned that Sirius Black would get to Harry in PoA; this is reflected in his suspicion of Lupin, and his scolding of Harry for being in Hogsmeade when he was not supposed to be.
5) In PoA, we learned that Dumbledore had a ‘useful spy’ who warned him of the Potters’ danger. I believe this was Snape.
6) Snape went out into the Shack to face a werewolf off his meds and (he thought) a mass-murderer. It is my opinion he meant to just investigate, and went out to the Shack when, finding Harry’s cloak, he realized Black had Harry and there was no time to waste.
7) I think that, when Snape yelled at Hermione in the Shack not to talk about things she does not understand, he was referring to his REAL reason for wanting revenge on Black-the death of the Potters.(It is also what he yelled at Harry about). If Snape truly risked his life as a spy to try and save them, this would be an excellent reason to hate Sirius (who Snape and everyone else believed to be the traitor).
8) In PoA, we learned that Snape had not, in all those years, betrayed Lupin’s secret. (I think it is part of the reason Dumbledore was willing to give him a hearing.)
9) In GoF, we learned that Snape worked for Dumbledore as a spy in the first war.
10) In GoF, Snape showed up in Crouch’s Foe Glass, suggesting he was on the good side, not on Crouch’s.
11) In GoF, Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge, in an attempt to convince him Voldemort was truly back. Such an admission about his past could not help him; and it was against Voldemort’s best interests, which were clearly better served by the Wizarding World remaining in denial.
12) In GoF, Snape agreed to shake hands with Sirius.
13) In GoF, Snape agreed, on a voluntary basis, for the extremely dangerous mission of returning to and angry Voldemort whose plan to kill Harry had failed, two hours after he had been summoned.
14) In OotP, Snape brought important and interesting information to an Order meeting. (My guess, he told them Voldemort was after the Prophecy).
15) In OotP, Snape tried to teach Harry Occlumency.
16) In OotP, Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum.
17) In OotP, Snape later refused to give her more.
18) In OotP, Snape checked on Sirius, and later warned the Order he feared Harry had gone to the Ministry. This was against Voldemort’s best interests.
19) In HBP, he saved Dumbledore’s life from the Ring curse.
20) In HBP, he saved Katie Bell from the cursed necklace, as Dumbledore later explained to Harry.
21) In HBP, I think Harry’s affinity for the Prince says something good about Snape’s personality.
22) I do not believe a Voldemort loyalist would have agreed to make an Unbreakable Vow such as the one Snape made. This is a point worthy of discussing at greater length, since Khanh puts the Vow in his list of Bad Snape evidence…
23) In HBP, Snape’s actions on the Tower and after are just…off. He didn’t say a word before he killed Dumbledore. Not one contemptuous, hate-filled word. No sneer, either. This is just not how the villain kills the wise old man. There needs to be at least a short villain speech. And then Snape was UPSET about it! In such emotional pain that he was compared to a dog trapped in a burning house.
24) Dumbledore died with a peaceful look on his face. He looked like he was asleep). I agree he would face death bravely, but a betrayal of this magnitude ought to have been a shock.
25) Snape stopped another Death Eater from Crucioing Harry. I am sure Voldemort gave no instructions about not torturing Harry (though he probably diod specify noone was to kill him, as Snape said).

I believe Snape is in Limbo between bad and good.

The good, The bad, and the Potions Master

Snape is, in a class of his own, neither good nor bad. I'm certain that Snape started out on the good side and was good before he came to Hogwarts, then, upon meeting James Potter and starting a grudge against him he probably turned evil, yet while in Hogwarts he couldn't join either The Death Eaters OR The Order Of The Phoenix, there were just Schoolhouse Heroes and Zeroes, and I suppose Snape went from Hero to Zero.

So what happened to him after he left Hogwarts? I'm guessing that Snape started off by joining the Death Eaters. As Snape is supposedly 35 in the fifth book, Harry's parents would have been around that age too, meaning that Harry's parents were somewhere around 20 years of age when Harry was born. Now, Snape heard the prophecy, which happened while Lily was pregnant or around the time shortly before Harry's birth. Most Hogwarts students graduate and 18 years of age, meaning it would have given Snape about 2 years to find Voldemort and sign up to join the Death Eaters, before being able to tell Voldemort the Prophecy, I reckon Snape would have needed about 2 years to find Voldemort and so, I believe that it fits that Snape started out as a Death Eater.

The next big event was the murder of Harry's parents, and more importantly, the first destruction of Voldemort. After Harry supposedly "Killed," Voldemort, Snape probably believed his lord to be dead. At this point the phraze, "Evil Never Wins!" hit him hard. Snape then probably set out to join Dumbledore. In OOTP Snape is asked by Umbridge (Pg. 323) how many years he had been teaching at Hogwarts, Snape replies with 14. Harry is 15 when that happens and he was 1 when his parents were killed, meaning that Voldemort had gone down 14 years ago. Coincidence? I think not :)...

As Voldemort had already gone down 14 years prior to OOTP, there was no more work for the Order to do, meaning Snape would have to satisfy Dumbledore in some other way, such as teaching at his school. I reckon this is enough proof that from Snape was good for the 13 years from when Harry "killed" Voldemort the first time until Voldemort rose again in Harry's fourth year.

When Voldemort rose again I am certain that Snape was 100% good, seeing as Voldemort says that one of his death eater's has to be killed (Snape) for becoming a traitor (Sorry, I don't have GoF with me so I don't know the exact quote :p). Now, I'm not on Voldemort's side, but I do believe that he is an accomplished Legilimens and that he knew Snape really had become a traitor, which he had. So now Snape, who found out that his Master was alive again, had to do something to stay on BOTH Voldemort and Dumbledore's side. He then did different things that could prove him on either side, such as teach Harry occlemency. Ron states (Pg. 489 of OOTP) that he believes Snape is trying to make it easier for Voldemort, while Hermione thinks Snape's trying to make it harder for Voldemort. Sounds like one of those Devil/Angel things, don't it? Snape started doing things like this so that both Voldemort and Dumbledore believe Snape is on their side, that way nobody got hurt.

Now, for the big question - Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?
Dumbledore does give Snape the DADA position in HBP, I believe the reason for this was because he believed that Snape was edging back to Voldemort and that he wanted to give Snape more reason to be on his side. Voldemort did pretty much the same thing, offering Snape "Rewards" for service. Now who do you think was under pressure? Yup, you guessed it, Snape. Snape was probably under so much pressure that he couldn't decide who's side to be on, and felt that he couldn't continue the double agent role... thus, he killed Dumbledore, so Voldemort wouldn't hurt him. He couldn't have killed Voldemort because of the Prophecy, and thus he had to terminate his other option... so that nobody got hurt.

I'm sure that Snape will probably regret his actions, after all, we all do stupid things when we're under pressure. I think that Snape will turn out good in the end, even if he does some wrong things.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, that was very long... and took me and hour to type... I hope it still makes sense. Maybe I should submit it as an Editorial somewhere. lol.

Ah, it's been a while since we had a nice list on this thread. :tu:

For the record, I think Snape is good. I also think some of your evidence is inconclusive. (Not that mine is any better, mind you. Rowling wants us unsure, and she has accomplished it brilliantly.)

Quote:
1. In the same book, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) states that some spots never come off. If indeed the Dark Mark is a permanent spell that cannot be removed and does not disappear as the result of a change of heart, the presence of the mark in no way contradicts Dumbledore's testimony that Snape is no more a Death Eater than he, in the Pensieve memory. (Also GoF).

Your argument comes back to the question of Dumbledore's trust. One doesn't know whether Snape is "really" no more a death eater. We only knows that Dumbledore accepts his story and trusts him. Dumbledore may be wrong.

Quote:
So does Trelawney. However, there's an even better explanation. If he's good, he's a double agent. A great way to get into trouble with the boss would be to call him the wrong name.

Trelawney is a seer. When she predicts, she is in a kind of trance. She doesn't remember what she has said after, when she comes out of the trance. It's like an "oracle", somebedy else, speaks through her mouth.Apart from Trelawney who doesn't know what she says when she predicts, only the Death Eaters call Voldemort "The Dark Lord". Dumbledore calls him by his name "Tom", or Voldemort, Harry, Sirius, Lupin also, but the other people call him "You-Know-Who" or "He-Who....".
Why "wrong name", I accept he should call "the Dark Lord" when he is in front of Voldemort or among the Death Eaters.
But he is at Hogwards: "The Dark Lord has used Inferi in the past." said Snape to the class in his first DADA lesson, in HP6-Chap.9. And he didn't want other people call Voldemort "Voldemlort" either !
"Do not say the Dark Lord's name", said Snape to Harry in HP5-Chap.34.

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We do not know the dates. Personally, I guess Snape approached Dumbledore (on his own initiative) within three months of Harry's birth, as soon as Voldemort had figured out who the boys were. And I think Voldemort sent Snape to get a job at Hogwarts the spring or summer before he go the job, when the DADA job position fell empty that year, which would be many months later.

No matter the date. Snape took the job under the order of Voldemort (not on his own initiative), he said so to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HP6-Chap.2. And that is not my guess. It's in the book.
"You know, I presume, that it was on the Dark Lord's order that I took up the post ?" said Snape.

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This is taken from an interview, not the books. I think this was Rowling's coy way of saying Dumbledore did not give the job to Snape because he was aware of the curse, pre-HBP (when the existence of an actualy curse, made by Voldemort, was revealed). The curse brought out the worst in several teachers, including Lupin, who I hope we can agree is not at all evil; yet he ended up posing the threat to the lives and well-being of the Trio.

It's what had happened in the books. The curse on the post is that nobody could stand more than a year. The curse doesn't bring out the worst in the teacher, if the teacher is not evil himself. Quirell was in service of Voldemort. Lockhart is a fraud. Crouch Jr. is a death eater. Umbridge is an evil woman before she took the job. She sent the dementors on Harry during the summer holidays. As for Lupin, one cannot blame him. it's a "disease" being a werewolf. And Mad Eye Moody was locked in his trunk, but no "worst in him was brought out".

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No doubt, and this was an evil act, as was his original decision to join the Death Eaters, and possibly other actions he took as a Death Eater of which we are not at present aware. My opinion that Snape is good is based on Dumbledore's statements that Snape felt remorse and decided to return to the good side. (And also, that this fits the events, IMO, as I do plan to explain!)

Your argument comes back to the trust of Dumbledore. And nothing to prove that Snape is good, or has returned to the good side. Like other people: "Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that should be good enough for us", no significant proof at all.

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This is not at all a statement that Snape was never/could never be, in love. It is in fact a sneaky way to get out of answering the question without a flat 'no comment'.
In particular, if Snape did love Lily, it worked out very badly for both of them. ;)

What proof would you have to say that Snape did love Lily. He called her "filthy little Mudbloods". "Mudbloods"" is the most insulting word in the wizarding world. In civilized conversation, one would not hear such a vocabulary.
Your counter-argument begins with an "IF". That is not a counter-argument at all.
It is in fact a sneaky way to get out of answering the question without a flat 'no comment'.

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I have a good deal of respect for this position, I just find that it does not fit with my experiences about human psychology. Feeling guilty about something, sadly, often makes people nastier rather than nicer people.

So you think that Snape is totally "forgivable" for having caused the death of Harry's parents and now torturing Harry whenever possible, without being provoked. For me, that is an indisputable proof that Snape feels no remorse, not the faintest remorse, for what he had done (causing Jame and Lily's death, and making Harry an orphan).

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Harry had to be restrained from causing Dung physical harm himself; Dung's membership in the Order did not stop Harry at all.

Mundungus has stolen things belonging to Sirius, i.e. to Harry personally. Yet, he felt sorry when Mundungus was arrested, and felt shocked when Snape called Mundungus "smelly sneak-thief", while they are on the same side !

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Why do you think evil Snape did this (the Unbreakable Vow) ?

This is not a counter-theory.
It is in fact a sneaky way to get out of answering the question without a flat 'no comment'.

When one is faithful to Dumbledore, one would not accept an Unbreakable Vow" to help Draco fulfill a mission for Voldemort, without being forced to, and knowing perfectly well that a mission for Voldemort might end up to having to kill Dumbledore.

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This is noit clearl that sentence could have ended differently. (Annoying Rowling!) There is a piece evidence that could point to Dumbledore knowing something about the Vow. Yhe point in "A Sluggish Memory" where Harry has told Dumbledore all that he overheard between Snape and Draco, and questioned Dumbledore, and Dumbledore has responded that Harry ought to consider that he may understand more than Harry. This could be about the Vow.

That is only your guess. But I think that Dumbledore may have said this to calm Harry, that was in Chap.17. Harry said after having listened Hagrid's story on the argument between Dumbledore and Snape in the forest (Chap.19):

"Was it because Dumbledore did not want Harry to do anything foolish, to take matters into his own hands, that he had pretended there was nothing in Harry's suspicions," (HP6-Chap.19, page 382)

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A second point which may indicate Dumbledore actually knew the precise wording of the Vow occurs on the Tower, when Snape comes through the door. One of the Death Eaters says 'The boy seems unable', and Dumbledore interrupts him before he can finish the sentence...perhaps because he knows Snape must kill him if it seems to the other Death Eaters that Draco will fail?

Surely, on the Tower, Dumbledore already knew the wording of the Vow. He had argued with Snape in Chap.19. My theory is that, knowing well Dumbledore, Snape would have told Dumbledore half of the truth, distorted truth as always. For this I have a theory on the "enigmatic "Severus ... please" under the topic "Dumbledore's Pleas", page 7, dated May 21st in History of Magic.

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Nice is not the word I would use to describe him either.

JKR could not use the word "Good", it would give too much away, as one of the questions of the interviewers was whether Snape is "Good" or "Evil".

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I will wait for Book 7 to see what Dumbledore's big mistake was. I don't think it was Snape, though. I find his decision to proceed with the Horcrux mission without investigating Harry's story about Draco odd, myself.

No comments. If you say "lest's wait for book 7".

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Oh, this is going to be one monster post, as noone posted while I wrote up all of the below...but one good list deserves another. Reasons I think Snape is Good:

1) Snape saved Harry from Quirrell’s curse in PS/SS; he may have attempted to prevent another attempt the time he was a Quidditch ref.

Dumbledore said:"Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace." (HP1-Chap.17)

It was Hermione who saved Harry by setting fire to Quirell cloak and break the eye contact of Quirell..

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2) Snape has taught Harry at least two things which saved Harry’s life (Expelliarmus, and the use of a bezoar).

Not intentionnally. The "Expelliarmus" is for everybody at the duel club. The bezoar is a sly trick to humiliate Harry before all the class. Only Hermione stretched her hand high in the air, none of the class knew about the bezoar.

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3) Snape was distressed when he learned Ginny Weasley was taken into the Chamber. (He gripped a chair so hard when he heard the news that his knuckles turned white).

Everybody was distressed, not only Snape. Flitwick let out a squeal. Sprout clapped her hands over her mouth...Perhaps Snape simply feared for his own life only ! Who knows ?

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4) Snape was concerned that Sirius Black would get to Harry in PoA; this is reflected in his suspicion of Lupin, and his scolding of Harry for being in Hogsmeade when he was not supposed to be.

That may be explained that he didn't want Lupin take the post of DADA, post that he wanted for himself.
As for scolding Harry, why would have he abstained from, when, for once, he had a good and legal reason for scolding ! I couldn't see that he did it because he had Harry's safety in mind !

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5) In PoA, we learned that Dumbledore had a ‘useful spy’ who warned him of the Potters’ danger. I believe this was Snape.

I don't remember that. But if you said so, being it so. You believe that it was Snape. Perhaps it was Snape, but he didn't warned Dumbledore in time to save the Potters. But he warned him just to "fulfill" the "Spy" job, but "too late", perhaps "intentionally" too late. Who knows ?

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6) Snape went out into the Shack to face a werewolf off his meds and (he thought) a mass-murderer. It is my opinion he meant to just investigate, and went out to the Shack when, finding Harry’s cloak, he realized Black had Harry and there was no time to waste.

Snape brought the potion to Lupin, in his office. he saw the marauders' map. He saw that they were in the Shack. Its was a wonderful and desparate chance for him to catch both Lupin and Serius and hand Sirius to the Dementors, and get the Order of Merlin !.

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7) I think that, when Snape yelled at Hermione in the Shack not to talk about things she does not understand, he was referring to his REAL reason for wanting revenge on Black-the death of the Potters.(It is also what he yelled at Harry about). If Snape truly risked his life as a spy to try and save them, this would be an excellent reason to hate Sirius (who Snape and everyone else believed to be the traitor).

Snape should have known that Sirius had nothing to do with the death of the Potters. But he acted as though he believed that Sirius is the cause of the Potter's death because it suited him so, to hide his personal hatred towards Sirius, and give a better image of himself, and a legal reason to hand Sirius to the Dementors.

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8) In PoA, we learned that Snape had not, in all those years, betrayed Lupin’s secret. (I think it is part of the reason Dumbledore was willing to give him a hearing.)

Snape doesn't really hate Lupin. As Lupin doesn't hate Snape. Lupin said in HP6-Chap.16 :" I neither like nor dislike Severus", said Lupin. "No, Harry, I am speaking the truth." Why should Snape betray Lupin if not provoked. And he has betrayed at the end of HP3 when he failed handing Sirus to the Dementors and lost his Order of Merlin !

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9) In GoF, we learned that Snape worked for Dumbledore as a spy in the first war.

Yes. But Snape was a spy for Voldemort too, and at first. And we don't know whether Dumbledore knows that Snape also works as a spy for Voldemort ?

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10) In GoF, Snape showed up in Crouch’s Foe Glass, suggesting he was on the good side, not on Crouch’s.

The mission of Crouch Jr. is a secret. Only Voldemort, Wormtail, and Crouch Jr. know. Anybody who are not in the secret, are considered as ennemy. Naturally Snape showed in the Foe Glass.

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11) In GoF, Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge, in an attempt to convince him Voldemort was truly back. Such an admission about his past could not help him; and it was against Voldemort’s best interests, which were clearly better served by the Wizarding World remaining in denial.

He was a "double" spy. He wasn't sure yet how Voldemort would recieve him back. Better give a good image of himself before Dumbledore. There's no harm in doing so, everybody knows already that he was (is) a death eater.

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12) In GoF, Snape agreed to shake hands with Sirius.

He had to, in front of Dumbledore. What could he do ? Sirius too, had to shake hand with Snape !

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13) In GoF, Snape agreed, on a voluntary basis, for the extremely dangerous mission of returning to and angry Voldemort whose plan to kill Harry had failed, two hours after he had been summoned.

He had to. Because that was why Dumbledore hire him. Clever and cunning as he is, he will wheeled out easily. He is a spy. He trusts his own abilities.

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14) In OotP, Snape brought important and interesting information to an Order meeting. (My guess, he told them Voldemort was after the Prophecy).

That's your guess. But I think it's all Dumbledore's ideas.

"How do you know what his plans are?", asked Harry.
"Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea", said Lupin, "and Dumbledore's shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate." (HP5-Chap.5) That's not my guess. That's in the book.

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15) In OotP, Snape tried to teach Harry Occlumency.

Unwillingly. Dumbledore asked him to. Do you think Snape really wanted to teach Harry? Ron said that he was trying to soften Harry's mind ! Who knows ?

"I'm trying," said Harry angrily, "but you're not telling me how !"
"Manners, Potter," said Snape dangerously. (HP5-Chap.24)

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16) In OotP, Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum.
17) In OotP, Snape later refused to give her more.

Who knows that it was a fake Veritaserum? Anyway, Umbridge was of no use to Snape, why should he help Umbridge ? He is to spy on Dumbledore. If Dumbledore is away, it would be difficult for him to spy and Snape should not jeopardize his job. Anyway, Harry didn't take the Veritaserum. There is no proof it was fake of real.

18) In OotP, Snape checked on Sirius, and later warned the Order he feared Harry had gone to the Ministry. This was against Voldemort’s best interests.

He had to do his spy job well. He had to keep Dumbledore's trust. The other Death Eaters at the ministry had but to do and carry out their own mission well. He, Snape, is to carry out Voldemort's order, that is to stay at Hogwarts and spy on Dumbledore, and should not, by anyway do anything that might jeopardize that.

"My orders were to remain behind", said Snape to Bellatrix and Narcissa. "Perhaps you disagree with the Dark Lord, perhaps you think that Dumbledore would not have noticed if I had joined forces with the Death Earters to fight the Order of the Phoenix ?" (HP6-Chapter 2)

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19) In HBP, he saved Dumbledore’s life from the Ring curse.

That's is part of his job. As long as Voldemort doen't ask him to kill Dumbledore, he has to keep his spy job.

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20) In HBP, he saved Katie Bell from the cursed necklace, as Dumbledore later explained to Harry.

Why shouldn't he save Katie Bell ? It was an accident. The necklace wasn't meant for Katie Bell. Her death doesn't serve him in anyway, on the contrary, it may jeopardize his job if he doen't try to save Katie.

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21) In HBP, I think Harry’s affinity for the Prince says something good about Snape’s personality.

For Harry, the Prince was a good student, that's all.

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22) I do not believe a Voldemort loyalist would have agreed to make an Unbreakable Vow such as the one Snape made. This is a point worthy of discussing at greater length, since Khanh puts the Vow in his list of Bad Snape evidence…

It's was a Vow to help Draco fulfill a mission for Voldemort. Only a Voldemort loyalist would have agreed to make such a Vow. It's an undisputable proof that he is on Voldemort's side.

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23) In HBP, Snape’s actions on the Tower and after are just…off. He didn’t say a word before he killed Dumbledore. Not one contemptuous, hate-filled word. No sneer, either. This is just not how the villain kills the wise old man. There needs to be at least a short villain speech. And then Snape was UPSET about it! In such emotional pain that he was compared to a dog trapped in a burning house.

Why should he lose time on speech ! "There were revulsion and hatred etched in the harsch lines of his face." That speaks long enough.

And you see that " Snape was "UPSET" , in such emotional pain ..." Your imagination is really very rich. I see only hatred and revulsion on his face and see no dog trapped in a burning house !!! Sorry !!!

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24) Dumbledore died with a peaceful look on his face. He looked like he was asleep). I agree he would face death bravely, but a betrayal of this magnitude ought to have been a shock.

He knew already the betrayal of Snape when Harry told him of the Unbreakable Vow in chapt.17 and 19. The betrayal of Snape was not new to him.

Dumbledore was already dying. He knew it, he knew he was dying. Harry saw Dumbledore's face become paler and paler, and he saw Dumbledore slide little by little every minute down the rampart wall. Clever and far-sighted as he is, Dumbledore should have already and always kept his affairs in order. To well-organised mind, death is but the other next adventure, Dumbledore had said so, in HP1-Chap.17. Then it would be natural that he looked peacful in his death.

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25) Snape stopped another Death Eater from Crucioing Harry. I am sure Voldemort gave no instructions about not torturing Harry (though he probably diod specify noone was to kill him, as Snape said.)

I see nowhere Snape stopped another Death Eater from crucioing Harry.

In HP6-Chap.30, Harry said Voldemort wanted to kill him (Harry) himself.

In HP4-Chap.34, Voldemort shouted at his death Eaters:
"Stand aside ! I will kill him ! He is mine !"

At the Ministry, in HP5, none of the Death eaters used the killing curse at Harry.

After the scene on the Tower, Snape had no time. He had to flight and took Draco away from danger as soon as possible. He shouted at the other death eaters "It's over, time to go !"

Well, that is my own theory. Snape is "Evil", basically evil.

Why "wrong name", I accept he should call "the Dark Lord" when he is before Voldemort. But he is at Hogwards: "The Dark Lors has used Inferi the past." said Snape in his first DADA lesson.
If one uses various names for a person in different company, you need to think about where you are, and who you are talking to, to get it right. If you stick to one name, it is automatic, that's the point I was making. Good Snape could be using the term Dark Lord as part of his cover, he has more important things to worry about when talking to Voldemort and Death Eaters than to remember not to say 'he who must not be named'. (Or he could be doing it 'cause he's so loyal to Voldemort...)


No matter the date. Snape took the job under the order of Voldemort (not on his own initiative), he said so to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HP6-Chap.2.
"You know, I presume, that it was on the Dark Lord's order that I took up the post ?" said Snape.
That's right. But if he had already been spying on Voldemort on his own initiative for several months, as I suggested, this would not be an indication of his loyalty to Voldemort, just an indication that he's keeping his cover by obeying Voldemort's orders when they are not harmful to the "good side".

As for Lupin, one cannot blame him. it's a "disease" being a werewolf.
Yes, bit when the disease is allowed free rein, I would say we are seeing the worst side of Lupin. Also, I do blame him. Not for having the disease, but for his irresponsible attitude towards it, his decision not to tell Dumbledore what he knew about Black, and his decision not to tell Dumbledore about the Map. (If he hadm he could have gone straight to him when he saw Pettigrew...)

Since I believe him to be a good person. I find that this was the way the curse found of bringing out the worst side of him. By setting up coincidences in such a way that forgivable lapses in judgment might have very serious consequences. I believe it was no coincidence that Buckbeak's execution date was set for a full moon night. That bit of bad luck was courtesy of some Dark Magic.

I think Moody's 'worst side' is his paranoia. It enabled Crouch to kidnap him withiout raising suspicions.

Your argument comes back to the trust of Dumbledore. And nothing to prove that Snape is good. Like other people: "Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that should be good enough for us", no significant proof at all.

Dumbledore's judgment is certainly part of my position. TYhe fact that I can hang a list of 20-some-odd incidents onto a Snape is Good story, though, raises my confidence in it.
What proof would you have to say that Snape loved Lily. He called her "filthy little Mudbloods". "Mudbloods"" is the most insulting word in the wizarding world. In civilized conversation, one would not hear such a vocabulary.
I am not entereing into my evidence that he did. Only that he cared about the deaths of the Potters. He cartainly says nothig about Lily in the PoA scene I reference, but he does express his frustration that James died because of his trust for Sirius.

I do think it is likely he loved her, but that theory actually has a thread (into version 5 by now) devoted to it on History of Magic whic is a better place for that discussion.

So you think that Snape is totally "forgivable" for having caused the death of Harry's parents and now torturing Harry whenever possible, without being provoked. For me, that a indisputable proof that Snape feels no remorse for what he had done.
I don't quite see Snape's actions in that light. He and Harry definitely had a poisonous relationship coming into HBP, and Snape definitely 'started it' in the first Potions class of PS/SS, but Harry has done his part in ensuring the relationship stayed that way/got worse. I do not see evidence that Snape is 'torturing Harry whenever possible'.
Mundungus has stolen things belonging to Sirius, i.e. to Harry personally. Yet, he felt sorry when Mundungus was arrested, and felt shocked when Snape called Mundungus "smelly sneak-thief", while they are on the same side !
This is a matter of interpretation. I think Harry felt sorry for Dung all of a sudden BECAUSE Snape called him a smelly sneak thief.
This is not a counter-theory.
It is in fact a sneaky way to get out of answering the question without a flat 'no comment'.
I have a counter theory, (and otyers have different ones) as it happens, it is just long . :)
I think Snape knew what Draco's task was before Spinner's End, just like he told Narcissa and Bella. Further, I think Voldemort had a personal chat with Snape about it, based on which Snape formed the impression that Voldemort intended him to do it, in the end.

Snape agreed to take the Vow because he had already told Narcissa he would not do the task. Instead he offered to help Draco. So he was, in my opinion, expecting the three claused of the Vow to be to watch over, protect, and help Draco. He took the Vow at all, because he wanted Bella to spread the word that he WAS on the bad side to the other Death Eaters (again, like he asked in Spinner's End), and because it gave him an ironclad reason (other than being 'good') for nosing his way into Draco's plans.

His agreeing to the third clause that ACTUALLY happened was a split-second decision. He may have felt it would be dangerously suspicious to decline just that part of the Vow after already goping against the Dark Lord's wishes with the first two; he may have believed that with Dumbledore's help, Draco could be deflected away from the task in a way that would not trigger the third clause; and he always had a way out of actually DOING anything, if it came down to it.

That is only your guess.
As is yours. We will see in Book 7. :cool:

Surely, on the Tower, Dumbledore already knew the wording of the Vow. He had argued with Snape in Chap.19. My theory is that, knowing well Dumbledore, Snape would have told Dumbledore half of the truth, distorted truth as always. For this I have a theory on the "enigmatic "Severus ... please" under the topic "Dumbledore's Pleas" in History of Magic, on page 7, dated May 18th.
It was May 21...but it is quite clever, I had not seen that one before and it does rpovide a way to explain Dumbledore's actions in the Tower scene without suggesting he actually still trusted Snape...I am just not sure that Dumbledore would use coercive magic of that sort. The hypothetical spell you describe is rather similar to an Imperius Curse, or an Unbreakable Vow entered into involuntarily. I also find it rather out of sync with the theme of choices, as it means whatever actions Snape has taken after Dumbledore's death in Book 6, and will take in Book 7, will not be freely chosen.
JKR could not use the word "Good", it would give too much away, as one of the questions of the interviewers was whether Snape is "Good" or "Evil".
She also made the quote before we learned Snape had been a Death Eater, so she could have been referring to that.

1) Snape saved Harry from Quirrell’s curse in PS/SS; he may have attempted to prevent another attempt the time he was a Quidditch ref.

Dumbledore said:"Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace." (HP1-Chap.17).
This deep magical bond in no way prevented Peter from participating in a plot ot kidnap, torture, and murder Harry in GoF. For this reason, I suspect the life debt has a voluntary component. Snape was not FORCED to save Harry, he CHOSE to. A desire to repay a debt is an indication of a conscience, in my view.

It was Hermione who saved Harry by setting fire to Quirell cloak and break the eye contact of Quirell..
Snape's, actually, but my argument was about Snape's intentions.

Not intentionnally. The "Expelliarmus" is for everybody at the duel club. The bezoar is a sly trick to humiliate Harry before all the class. Only Hermione stretched her hand high in the air, none of the class knew about the bezoar.
That is your opinion; I believe he sincerely wishes to teach his students, Harry included.


3) Snape was distressed when he learned Ginny Weasley was taken into the Chamber. (He gripped a chair so hard when he heard the news that his knuckles turned white).

Everybody was distressed, not only Snape. Flitwick let out a squeal. Sprout clapped her hands over her mouth...Perhaps Snape simply feared for his own life only !
Why should Snape fear for his life, under these circumstances? (And the other characters are all 'good' too.)
That may be explained that he didn't want Lupin take the post of DADA, post that he wanted for himself.
(Emphasis mine, obviously I disagree).

As for scolding Harry, why would have he abstained from, when, for once, he had a good and legal reason for scolding ! I couldn't see that he did it because he had Harry's safety in mind !
For once? He's had them before.
The contents of his ranting certainly were relevant to the idea that it was dangerous for Harry to behave as he had.

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5) In PoA, we learned that Dumbledore had a ‘useful spy’ who warned him of the Potters’ danger. I believe this was Snape.

I don't remember that. But if you said so, being it so. You believe that it was Snape. Perhaps it was Snape, but he didn't warned Dumbledore in time to save the Potters. But he warned him just to "fulfill" the "Spy" job, but "too late", perhaps "intentionally" too late. Who knows ?
if you want to look it up, it iws in the PoA chapter where Harry, in his cloak, overhears a conversation between Fidge, Rosmerta, McGonagall, Hagrid, and Flitwick in Hogsmeade. The warning in question arrived before the Fidelius Charm was cast, thus in time to be acted upon, as indeed it was.
Snape brought the potion to Lupin, in his office. he saw the marauders' map. He saw that they were in the Shack. Its was a wonderful and desparate chance for him to catch both Lupin and Serius and hand Sirius to the Dementors, and get the Order of Merlin !.
The Shack does not appear on the Map. He just saw Lupin going there, and suspected he was meeting Sirius.
Snape should have known that Sirius had nothing to do with the death of the Potters. But he acted as though he believed that Sirius is the cause of the Potter's death because it suited him so, to hide his personal hatred towards Sirius, and give a better image of himself, and a legal reason do hand Sirius to the Dementors.
Why should he have known? His best surviving friend believed it of Sirius, as did Dumbledore.

Snape doesn't really hate Lupin. Your quote is about Lupin's feelings. Snape agrees he believed Lupin was in on the 'prank'. He just hjas no DEEPER reason to have Lupin. (Potters...)

He was a "double" spy. He wasn't sure yet how Voldemort would recieve him back. Better give a good image of himself before Dumbledore. There's no harm in doing so, everybody knows already that he was (is) a death eater.
Not so. Sirius tells Harry that if Snape was a Death Eater, he was never caught. (Padfoot Returns, GoF).

He had to, before Dumbledore. What could he do ? Sirius too, had to shake hand with Snape !
He could refuse, of course. As could Sirius. They both agreed out of respect for Dumbledore.

He had to. Because that was why Dumbledore hire him. Clever and cunning as he is, he will wheeled out easily. He is a spy. He trusts his own abilities.
He was definitely showing some signs of fear. (He was paler than usual).


"How do you know what his plans are?", asked Harry.
"Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea", said Lupin, "and Dumbledore's shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate." (HP5-Chap.5) That's not my guess. That's in the book.

Unwillingly. Dumbledore asked him. Do you think Snape really wanted to teach Harry? Ron said that he was trying to soften Harry's mind ! Who knows ?

Snape was really quite good about answering pages and pages of Harry's questions in the Occlumency lessons, especially the first, before it became apparent that Harry was not going to practice. Doing things unwillingly does not make Snape evil, as long as he does them.

Who knows that it was a fake Veritaserum? Anyway, Umbridge was of no use to Snape, why should he help Umbridge ? He is to spy on Dumbledore. If Dumbledore is away, it would be difficult for him to spy and Snape should not jeopardize his job. Anyway, Harry didn't take the Veritaserum. There is no proof it was fake of real.
Umbridge was Headmistress. If she had remained (there is no way snape could have known how that would all turn out) she had already put him on probation.


"My orders were to remain behind", said Snape. "Perhaps you disagree with the Dark Lord, perhaps you think that Dumbledore would not have noticed if I had joined forces with the Death Earters to fight the Order of the Phoenix ?" (HP6-Chapter 2)
My uqestion was not why he did not fight for Voldemort, that is clear. My question is why he sent the Order.

That's is part of his job. As long as Voldemort doen't ask him to kill Dumbledore, he has to keep his spy job.
If Dumbledore were dead, Snape would still have his spy job.
Why shouldn't he save Katie Bell ? It was an accident. The necklace wasn't meant for Katie Bell. Her death doesn't serve him in anyway, on the contrary, it may jeopardize his job if he doen't try to save Katie.
Nonetheless, it was a good action.

For Harry, the Prince was a good student, that's all.
That's not what Harry says. He's convinced the Prince was a boy, for example, and I don't think it is because Harry is sexist enough to believe boys are better students. (He is friends with Hermione, after all). He identifies with him.

Why should he lose time on speech ! "There were revulsion and hatred etched in the harsch lines of his face." That speaks long enough.

And you see that " Snape was "Upset" , in such emotional pain ..." Your imagination is really very rich. I see only hatred and revulsion on his face and see no dog trapped in a burning house !!!
Thanks for the compliment, but I prefer to exercise my imagination when writing fanfiction, not discussing theories in this forum. You need to reread "Flight of the Prince" ;). It's there in black and white (my bolding).
"DON'T -" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them - "CALL ME COWARD!"
. Then it would be natural that he looked peacful in his death.
True. Your version of the events is consistent with his appearance. (As is mine...)

I see nowhere Snape stopped another Death Eater from crucioing Harry.

Again, you need another look at "Flight of the Prince". Harry thinks Snape is Crucioing him, but actually it is Snape's voice that yells "NO!", and then the pain stops.

If Dumbledore were dead, Snape would still have his spy job.

I hope that you'll forgive me for slightly diverging from the point, but I've wondered about this from the moment I read it, at 12:18am after being first in line at the book store. :cool:

And it does have directly to do with whether Snape was on the side of good or evil (he is nasty, there's no doubt about that).

Let's follow the chain of reasoning.

If Dumbledore were the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared, and the only reason that Voldemort hadn't taken over Hogwarts, AND Snape's job was to spy on Dumbledore...

If Dumbledore were DEAD, why would Snape still need to spy on him?

This was one of the several weak spots of Snape's various responses to Bellatrix...

Dumbledore wouldn't be there to spy on, and Voldemort could take over Hogwarts any time that he wanted. So, seriously--why would Snape have to remain? The logic simply isn't consistent.

How do you spy on a dead man?

I Don't know whether he is good or bad, but I have one thing on my mind, which I already mentioned at another thread. Couldn't we try to look at Crookshanks' behaviour when Snape was around? Maybe it would help us to decide...

Couldn't we try to look at Crookshanks' behaviour when Snape was around? Maybe it would help us to decide...
I don't think they've ever been in the same scene together.

Dumbledore wouldn't be there to spy on, and Voldemort could take over Hogwarts any time that he wanted. So, seriously--why would Snape have to remain? The logic simply isn't consistent. I'm afraid that if Voldypoo took over Hogwarts, only Death Eaters would send their kids there. And the school wouldn't have ministry support anymore.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to leave the school be, with Snape as a respected teacher, maybe even Headmaster? I think that would be a good place to have a spy in.

I hope that you'll forgive me for slightly diverging from the point, but I've wondered about this from the moment I read it, at 12:18am after being first in line at the book store. :cool:

And it does have directly to do with whether Snape was on the side of good or evil (he is nasty, there's no doubt about that).

Let's follow the chain of reasoning.

If Dumbledore were the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared, and the only reason that Voldemort hadn't taken over Hogwarts, AND Snape's job was to spy on Dumbledore...

If Dumbledore were DEAD, why would Snape still need to spy on him?

This was one of the several weak spots of Snape's various responses to Bellatrix...

Dumbledore wouldn't be there to spy on, and Voldemort could take over Hogwarts any time that he wanted. So, seriously--why would Snape have to remain? The logic simply isn't consistent.

How do you spy on a dead man?
I think Snape's job was to spy on the Order, including Dumbledore. With Dumbledore gone, there would still be reason to have a spy in the Order of the Phoenix.

If one uses various names for a person in different company, you need to think about where you are, and who you are talking to, to get it right. If you stick to one name, it is automatic, that's the point I was making. Good Snape could be using the term Dark Lord as part of his cover, he has more important things to worry about when talking to Voldemort and Death Eaters than to remember not to say 'he who must not be named'. (Or he could be doing it 'cause he's so loyal to Voldemort...)

I agree that he may make mistake in front of Voldemort, just by a slip of the tongue. But why "Forbid" Harry to call Voldemort by his name ?

"Do not say the Dark Lord's name, said Snape in the fist Occlumency lesson. HP5-Chap.24.

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Yes, bit when the disease is allowed free rein, I would say we are seeing the worst side of Lupin...

We are not discussing Lupin Good ... Bad here . Otherwise we would never end our arguments.

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I think Moody's 'worst side' is his paranoia. It enabled Crouch to kidnap him withiout raising suspicions.

We are not discussion Mad Eye Moody's Paranoia here neither.

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Dumbledore's judgment is certainly part of my position. TYhe fact that I can hang a list of 20-some-odd incidents onto a Snape is Good story, though, raises my confidence in it.

Many people think that since Dumbledore trusts Snape, that should be good enough for them. But my opinion is Dumbledore may make mistakes as everybody. A discussion on this is endless.

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I do think it is likely he loved her, but that theory actually has a thread (into version 5 by now) devoted to it on History of Magic whic is a better place for that discussion.

The only piece of information about Lily and Snape is the memory in the pensieve. And it is difficult for me to base on this and conclude that Snape was in love with Lily. The HBP strengthen my opinion on this. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name - Lord Voldemort - the Half-Blood-Prince. Snape despises definitely the mudbloods....

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I don't quite see Snape's actions in that light. He and Harry definitely had a poisonous relationship coming into HBP, and Snape definitely 'started it' in the first Potions class of PS/SS, but Harry has done his part in ensuring the relationship stayed that way/got worse. I do not see evidence that Snape is 'torturing Harry whenever possible'.

Surely the relationship between Snape and Harry is poisonnus, and Snape definitely started first by humiliating Harry in the first potion class. I did not mean Snape "torturing" Harry by "Crucio" or anything like that, but by humilationg Harry before the class, give Harry detention... giving Harry 0 point while Harry does not really deserved ...Harry being a student, he had to but undergo !

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I have a counter theory, (and otyers have different ones) as it happens, it is just long . :)
I think Snape knew what Draco's task was before Spinner's End, just like he told Narcissa and Bella. Further, I think Voldemort had a personal chat with Snape about it, based on which Snape formed the impression that Voldemort intended him to do it, in the end.

That is your theory. As you said:

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As is yours. We will see in Book 7. :cool:

No comments.

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It was May 21...but it is quite clever, I had not seen that one before and it does rpovide a way to explain Dumbledore's actions in the Tower scene without suggesting he actually still trusted Snape...I am just not sure that Dumbledore would use coercive magic of that sort. The hypothetical spell you describe is rather similar to an Imperius Curse, or an Unbreakable Vow entered into involuntarily. I also find it rather out of sync with the theme of choices, as it means whatever actions Snape has taken after Dumbledore's death in Book 6, and will take in Book 7, will not be freely chosen.

Yes it was May 21st. The hypothetical "Pact" of my theory is not similar to an "Imperius curse". You launch the Imperius curse at people without asking them their acceptance, you try to get what you want by force.

It may be a little similar to an Unbreakable Vow, in the way that you are bound to carry out once you accepted. But no need for a "ceremony" like Snape and Narcissa to bind their two hands.

It's would be something in theses lines:
"If ever you are to kill me (because you are bound to by your Unbreakabable Vow), Kill me, But you should know that in killing me, you would seal the "Pact" and would be bound to protect Harry."
That explains why Dumbledore pleaded Snape "Severus ... please..." on the Tower.

What could Dumbledore do when he learned (by Harry) that Snape has made an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco to kill him (Dumbledore) ? He has realised that Snape had betrayed him. But clever, and calme as he is, Dumbledore would have tried to remedy the situation in "traping" Snape into that kind of "Pact", by telling Snape beforehand what would happens if ever he should kill him, Dumbledore. He has chosen Snape because Snape is a great wizard, competent, and is the right arm of Voldemort. Who else beter placed than Snape to protect Harry if he, Dumbledore, would die ?

No matters Snape Good (Dumbledore's side) or Bad (Voldemort's side), Snape would be bound to protect Harry.

Snape would be bound to "protect" someone (Harry), not to kill someone nor to do anything evil. That makes the "Pact" plausible as coming from Dumbledore, and Dumbledore "exchanges" his own life against Harry's, and against Snape's too.

"If ever you have to kill me (because of the Unbreakable Vow), Kill me (to save your life, Snape's life), but in killing me you would seal the "Pact" and would have to protect Harry. It's not for his own (Dumbledore's) profit. And that's what makes it no "coercive magic". The aim of Dumbledore is the protection of Harry, and only the protection of Harry..

If you don't want to protect Harry ? Then don't kill me. Snape has still a choice.

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This deep magical bond in no way prevented Peter from participating in a plot ot kidnap, torture, and murder Harry in GoF. For this reason, I suspect the life debt has a voluntary component. Snape was not FORCED to save Harry, he CHOSE to. A desire to repay a debt is an indication of a conscience, in my view.

Perhaps. But when I say Snape "good"... "bad", that is in the meaning Snape on Dumbledore's side or on Voldemort's side.

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The Shack does not appear on the Map. He just saw Lupin going there, and suspected he was meeting Sirius.

"I've just been to your office , Lupin. You forgot to take your Potion, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did ... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I need to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight." said Snape in the beginning of Chap.19, HP3.

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Why should he have known? His best surviving friend believed it of Sirius, as did Dumbledore.

He is a spy, he should have known that it was Wormtail who told Voldemort where the Poters were.

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Your quote is about Lupin's feelings. Snape agrees he believed Lupin was in on the 'prank'. He just hjas no DEEPER reason to have Lupin. (Potters...)

But in the end he betrayed Lupin in giving away Lupin's secret.

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Not so. Sirius tells Harry that if Snape was a Death Eater, he was never caught. (Padfoot Returns, GoF).

Snape has never been caught as a death eater, besauce Dumbledore vouched for him before the Ministry.

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He could refuse, of course. As could Sirius. They both agreed out of respect for Dumbledore.

Yes he could refuse, but he would lose Dumbledore's trust.

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He was definitely showing some signs of fear. (He was paler than usual).

Surely. It's a dangerous job, being a spy.

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My uqestion was not why he did not fight for Voldemort, that is clear. My question is why he sent the Order.

He should do his job vs Dumbledore in order to keeps Dumbledore trust to continue to spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. He is a double spy.

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If Dumbledore were dead, Snape would still have his spy job.

If Dumbledore is dead. I don't think Voldemort still need a spy.

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... but I prefer to exercise my imagination when writing fanfiction, not discussing theories in this forum. You need to reread "Flight of the Prince" ;). It's there in black and white (my bolding).

I said I see only hatred and revulsion on his face on the Tower, when Snape killed Dumbledore.

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Again, you need another look at "Flight of the Prince". Harry thinks Snape is Crucioing him, but actually it is Snape's voice that yells "NO!", and then the pain stops.

Yes, I agree that I haven't seen that. But that may strengthen my theory of the enigmatic "Severus ... please... "

Dumbledore wouldn't be there to spy on, and Voldemort could take over Hogwarts any time that he wanted. So, seriously--why would Snape have to remain? The logic simply isn't consistent.

How do you spy on a dead man?

I agree. :tu: To give the other point of view its due, Snape could still spy on the Order. But I don't think Voldemort cares all that much about them, minus Dumbledore. He was the only one he feared.

I agree that he may make mistake in front of Voldemort, just by a slip of the tongue. But why "Forbid" Harry to call Voldemort by his name ?
He explains himself right then and there. Dumbledore may feel confident enough to do so, but others...(Snape that is, do not). Snape's willingness to make admissions like this to Harry in the course of the lessons is a big reason I tend to believe he was trying to teach Harry, rather than make him vulnerable to Voldemort. Snape is not a character I see as being particularly willing to admit hisweahnesses. Of course, he could just fear Voldemort because Voldemort is scary-but I believe Snape has a very sound, personal basis for his fear (that is, if Voldemort decides he is a traitor, he's in big trouble.)

We are not discussing Lupin Good ... Bad here . Otherwise we would never end our arguments.

I think Moody's 'worst side' is his paranoia. It enabled Crouch to kidnap him withiout raising suspicions.

We are not discussion Mad Eye Moody's Paranoia here neither.
These serve as examples how the curse brings out or exploits the 'worst side' of good characters, in order to illustrate what I believe Rowling meant by her interview comment.

The only piece of information about Lily and Snape is the memory in the pensieve. And it is difficult for me to base on this and conclude that Snape was in love with Lily. The HBP strengthen my opinion on this.
The opinion has been out there in fandom since post PoA, and gained additional traction after OotP. When I first heard of the theory I thought is was weird. HBP completely changed my mind. The new evidence we have is Snape's remorse (which yes, you do not believe in). But he hated James, which suggests it was someone else Snape cared about. The list of other candidates has only one name on it-Lily's. The other new evidence is that, apparently, Snape and Lily were Sluggie's star students in Potions, both creative potions-makers with the ability to improve on their recipes. At present I see no other plot purpose for the revelation of Lily's skill in Pptions but to hint she and Snape knew each other better than the Pensieve mamory suggests, at some point.

More generally, Snape takes shots at Harry's father and friends. But no reference to Lily, ever. It's odd.

Pure-blood mother, Muggle father ... ashamed of his parentage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark Arts, gave himself an impressive new name - Lord Voldemort - the Half-Blood-Prince. Snape despises definitely the mudbloods....
I see the name as different from Voldemort's. It's ironic, it explicitly stresses his heritage rather than hiding it. I am not convinced he was a serious Muggle-hater despite his use of the slur against Lily (who seemed surprised by his use of it).

Surely the relationship between Snape and Harry is poisonnus, and Snape definitely started first by humiliating Harry in the first potion class. I did not mean Snape "torturing" Harry by "Crucio" or anything like that, but by humilationg Harry before the class, give Harry detention... giving Harry 0 point while Harry does not really deserved ...Harry being a student, he had to but undergo !
I understood what you meant, and I agree Snape started it. I see part of it as being just the sort of teacher Snape is. He puts students down a lot in general, not just Harry. (His opening speech, before he even started picking on Harry, involved calling most of his students dunderheads.) And Harry has done things to reinforce Snape's opinion of him too. (The undeserved zero, for example, was after Harry sneaked a look at his Pensieve memory). And the detentions are often for things Harry should expect to get a detention for.

It's would be something in theses lines:
"If ever you are to kille me (because you are bound to by your Unbreakabable Vow), Kill me, But you should know that in killing me, you are bound to protect Harry."
Oh, so you think Snape entered into this pact voluntarily? This I can see Dumbledore doing, perhaps (though I can also just see him telling Snape to protect Harry for him after his death without any magical pact and taking his word for it.)

But if Snape entered into the pact voluntarily, and Dumbledore was asking to be killed so that the pact would come into force, we are verging on the edge of a theory which makes Snape's actions on the Tower ambiguous at worst.

But clever, and calme as he is, Dumbledore tried to remedy the situation in traping Snape into that kind of "Pact", by telling Snape before hand what would happens if ever he should kill him, Dumbledore. Dumbledore has chosen Snape because Snape is a great wizard, competent, and is the right arm of Voldemort. Who else beter placed than Snape to protect Harry if he, Dumbledore, would die ?
If Snape was 'trapped', it was coercive. If Dumbledore outlined the pact, and Snape consented, he wasn't trapped, he consented. I'm a but unclear on what you are supposing happened here.

No matters Snape Good (Dumbledore's side) or Bad (Voldemort's side), Snape would be bound to protect Harry.
What I don't see is why if Snape is Voldemort's, he would agree to the pact.
Perhaps. But when I say Snape "good"... "bad", that is in the meaning Snape on Dumbledore's side or on Voldemort's side.
Yes, but if he is on Voldemort's side, he is also bad in the conventional sense of the word. (As in, the opposite of good, moral, ethical, etc..) Evidence that he has a conscience and acts on it lat least sometimes lessens the likelihood, in my eyes, that he is bad in the conventional sense of the word. And thus, that he is Voldemort's man.

"I've just been to your office , Lupin. You forgot to take your Potion, so I took a gobletful along. And very lucky I did ... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I need to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight." said Snape in the beginning of Chap.19, HP3.
Yes, out of sight because the Map does not extend to the Shack. (My bolding).
He is a spy, he should have known that it was Wormtail who told Voldemort where the Poters were.
Not if Voldemort was keeping Peter under wraps.

Snape has never been caught as a death eater, besauce Dumbledore vouched for him before the Ministry.
Yes, in what was apparently a closed hearing, because Sirius (among others) knows nothing about it.

Yes he could refuse, but he would lose Dumbledore's trust.
Would he? He had apparently not lost in by HBP, despite his refusal to continue teaching Harry (for personal reasons similar to those which might cause him to refuse to shake the hand of Sirius).

Surely. It's a dangerous job, being a spy.
It's more dangerous, if you are working against the side that routinely tortures and kills people it does not like.

He should do his job vs Dumbledore in order to keeps Dumbledore trust to continue to spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. He is a double spy.
He had already done that, when he made sure that Sirius was safe, and left Harry in Umbridge's custody. He went above and beyond the bare minumum he would need to deter suspicion.

If Dumbledore is dead. I don't think Voldemort still need a spy.
Which is not, in my opinion, a problem for Snape. He was a Death Eater for a year or two before he became a spy, he must have other talents of use to Voldemort. (It is not hard to imagine what, actually. He seems a highly skilled expert on Potions and the Dark Arts...)


I said I see only hatred and revulsion on his face on the Tower, when Snape killed Dumbledore.
I'm sorry, I posted a quote straight out of the book. It was not on the Tower...are you saying you don't believe that quote?

This has to do with Snape working for himself. I implore you to read the editorials, they make excellent points. I just have a bit more to add.

You can find the Machivelli theory here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-texan01.shtml)
and you can find Melissa Walker's summation of the BJ Texan's theory here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-mwalker01.shtml)
Basically these theories say that Snape has been the mastermind behind everything that has happened in the first six books, and even Lord Voldemort is a red herring- which would provide one of the biggest twists in literary history as Snape would become the next Dark Lord. They say that using Harry, since Snape already killed one wizard more powerful than he (dumbledore), he will kill Voldemort. This implies that Snape only gave parts of the prophecy for his own benefit, not Dubmbledore's.I take no credit for these editorials, but I think I could elaborate a bit more and add a few more possbilities that ties in with some of the hints JK gave us.

In her editorial, Melissa states that:

I agree totally that Snape will become an even darker foe than Voldemort easily able to murder Harry because he doesn't have a weakness to love. I'd like to add a bit more, however.

First, let's start with the Prophecy:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." (underlined and bolded by me)

Could not the other be Snape? Think about it, Snape gave a little bit of the prophecy to Voldemort so he could mark Harry as his equal and eventually lead to his own downfall. We know that Snape heard the whole prophecy because Trelawney said he burst through the door after she had awakened from her trance. I presume that Snape told Voldemort not to kill Lily when he goes to Godric's hollow to kill Harry, that's why Voldemort told her to step aside. From little excerpts in the series, and clues from JK, we know that Snape loved Lily.

In book 7:
So Snape has already killed Dumbledore the previous year, and all that he has as an obstacle is Voldemort, so his carefully laid out plan comes into play where Harry kills Voldemort. Snape immediately comes into play as the next Dark Lord. It is my prediction that Snape is immediately going to try and kill Harry (this is when Lily's eyes come into play), and as he raises his wand thinking about all the pain James and others have caused him, he looks into Harry's eyes and thinks about the only one who he had ever loved- Lily. He is not able to kill Harry and his brief spell as the Dark Lord ends. Ironically, I believe both Voldemort and Snape will be fall due to love- Voldemort because love kills him, and Snape because he betrayed his love (Lily). if you read the editorials, it states in Machiavelli's The Prince, that a leader should be as crafty as a fox. In HP6, before Narcissa and Bellatrix enter Snape's house on Spinner's end, a fox passes them, and one of them says, "it was just a fox". Now, why would JK just put a random fox there- it could have been anything. It may have been a coincidence, but honestly, I would never think of writing in a fox just for the sake of it- it has to have some kind of meaning. This leaves others to speculate if Snape's patronus is a fox- hopefully we will find out in the next book to help confirm this. I think that Snape is not in the same league as Voldemort or Dumbledore- only the two of them make up their own league. What Snape has is an immense talent in craftiness, he can worm his way out of any situation. Plus, why would he need to be in the same league as them if they were both eliminated anyway? That's the reason he's using Harry to defeat Voldemort, because he knows he himself cannot. At least that's what I believe

(One question technical quesrion: How do you do to "quote" separately the text, paragraph by paragraph. When I clik on "quote" it's the whole message that is copied. To make my answers clear, I have to color them !)

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He explains himself right then and there. Dumbledore may feel confident enough to do so, but others...(Snape that is, do not). Snape's willingness to make admissions like this to Harry in the course of the lessons is a big reason I tend to believe he was trying to teach Harry, rather than make him vulnerable to Voldemort. Snape is not a character I see as being particularly willing to admit hisweahnesses. Of course, he could just fear Voldemort because Voldemort is scary-but I believe Snape has a very sound, personal basis for his fear (that is, if Voldemort decides he is a traitor, he's in big trouble.)

I see no need for Snape to forbid Harry call Voldemort by his name.

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These serve as examples how the curse brings out or exploits the 'worst side' of good characters, in order to illustrate what I believe Rowling meant by her interview comment.

I said that Dumbledore thought that the DADA post would bring out the worst in Snape. And I said that the curse would bring out the worst in the teacher if the teacher is himself evil.

The curse hadn't brought out any "worst" in Mad Eye Moody. His has benn locked in his trunk all the time, before the beginning of term. He hasn't done anything at all, because he is not evil. He is paranoia, but he is not evil. He has been kidnapped by the Death Eaters, he is a victim, he is not the one who spreaded evil, who made people suffer.

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The opinion has been out there in fandom since post PoA, and gained additional traction after OotP. When I first heard of the theory I thought is was weird. HBP completely changed my mind. The new evidence we have is Snape's remorse (which yes, you do not believe in). But he hated James, which suggests it was someone else Snape cared about. The list of other candidates has only one name on it-Lily's. The other new evidence is that, apparently, Snape and Lily were Sluggie's star students in Potions, both creative potions-makers with the ability to improve on their recipes. At present I see no other plot purpose for the revelation of Lily's skill in Pptions but to hint she and Snape knew each other better than the Pensieve mamory suggests, at some point.

More generally, Snape takes shots at Harry's father and friends. But no reference to Lily, ever. It's odd.

That's your apinion on Lily, I may not share it. As for James, of course Snape should hate James who used to hang him in mid air.

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I see the name as different from Voldemort's. It's ironic, it explicitly stresses his heritage rather than hiding it. I am not convinced he was a serious Muggle-hater despite his use of the slur against Lily (who seemed surprised by his use of it).

His father's family name is Snape, not Prince. He works out his name as "Half- Blood-Prince", to me it is no better than the name Lord Voldemort.

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I understood what you meant, and I agree Snape started it. I see part of it as being just the sort of teacher Snape is. He puts students down a lot in general, not just Harry. (His opening speech, before he even started picking on Harry, involved calling most of his students dunderheads.) And Harry has done things to reinforce Snape's opinion of him too. (The undeserved zero, for example, was after Harry sneaked a look at his Pensieve memory). And the detentions are often for things Harry should expect to get a detention for.

So you think that Snape is quite a "fair" teacher ?
As for Harry has done things to reinforce Snape's opinions too. Harry must have his own pride. If Snape says things that is unjust, Harry should reply. But I haven't seen Harry a cheeky student, until and except for the one time in HP6 when he said: "There is no need to call me "sir", professor". I consider it as the last drop. But we go into too much details. It's become tiring. We all know how Snape treats Harry.

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Oh, so you think Snape entered into this pact voluntarily? This I can see Dumbledore doing, perhaps (though I can also just see him telling Snape to protect Harry for him after his death without any magical pact and taking his word for it.)

Yes, may be, it depends on circumstances. If he has to choose between his own life and having to protect Harry, he will not hesitate. If he doesn't respect the Unbreakable Vow, he'll die. If he kill Dumbledore, he'll have to protect Harry. But that's only a theory of mine. You are not forced to share with me !!! I try to explain the enigmatic "Severus ... please" while stiking on my theory that Snape may not be "Good" (on Dumbledore's side), but still in HP7, Snape will protect Harry.

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But if Snape entered into the pact voluntarily, and Dumbledore was asking to be killed so that the pact would come into force, we are verging on the edge of a theory which makes Snape's actions on the Tower ambiguous at worst.

On the Tower, feeling more and more weak, knowing that he will die, Dumbledore pleaded Snape to kill him, not to let Draco, or another Death Eater kill him, so that Snape would seal the "Pact' and protect Harry. I see no ambiguity. Seeing that apparently Draco will not have the courage to kill Dumbledore, Snape will have to kill Dumbledore to fulfill his part of responsibility in the Unbreakable Vow. It's only a theory of mine, if you think that it doen't stand, you don't have to accept.

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If Snape was 'trapped', it was coercive. If Dumbledore outlined the pact, and Snape consented, he wasn't trapped, he consented. I'm a but unclear on what you are supposing happened here.

Do you really feel sorry for Snape to be "trapped". What could Dumbledore do when he realized that the one whom he trusted since 15 years has accepted to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill him. How could you think of a plan to remedy that ? Dumbledore "trappes" Snape by offering his own life.
"If you have to kill me (because of the Unbreakable Vow), kill me (to save your life), but in killing me you would seal the pact to protect Harry.
Snape would be bound not to do anything wrong, but to protect someone (Harry). If you trap someone, even in exchange of your own life, to do something evil, to kill someone, I call it coercive. Dumbledore "traps" (for lack of better word) Snape, in exchange of his own life, to do something good, to protect someone (Harry). I do not see it coercive. That's only my theorie.

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What I don't see is why if Snape is Voldemort's, he would agree to the pact.

I'm not JKR, I know nothing about magic and the logical ways of magic things JKR would do. But the "Pact" as I imagine, to be not coercive, the other side should know the wording of the "Pact". When one speak of "Pact", it's a responsability.
Dumbledore cannot propose that "Pact" to Voldemort. Because it's Harry Voldemort wants to kill. How could Dumbledore propose to Voldemort:
"If you kill me (Dumbledore), you will have to protect Harry.

Voldemort would surely say: No, I won't kill you (Dumbledore), but I will kill Harry.
Snape cannot kill Harry, because Harry "belongs" to Voldemort.

That's only a theory of mine !

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Yes, out of sight because the Map does not extend to the Shack. (My bolding).

Snape has seen them running along the passageway. He had only to take the same passageway and arrive to the shack.

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Not if Voldemort was keeping Peter under wraps.

Perhaps.

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Would he? He had apparently not lost in by HBP, despite his refusal to continue teaching Harry (for personal reasons similar to those which might cause him to refuse to shake the hand of Sirius).

Perhaps refusing to continue teaching Harry, is not very important, because that concerns only Harry. But refusing to shake hand among members of the Order, that's is important, because that is "politics" If members in the same party are not "united", how could one hope to fight the ennemy.

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Which is not, in my opinion, a problem for Snape. He was a Death Eater for a year or two before he became a spy, he must have other talents of use to Voldemort. (It is not hard to imagine what, actually. He seems a highly skilled expert on Potions and the Dark Arts...)

Surely after Dumbledore death, Voldemort could use Snape on other jobs, potions for exemple.

But I have other theory. I'm not very sure that Voldemort will welcome the initiative of Snape in helping Draco.

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I'm sorry, I posted a quote straight out of the book. It was not on the Tower...are you saying you don't believe that quote?

I believe that quote. But I think it concerns the theory of mine. Snape thinks he'll have now to protect Harry ! That's is only my opinion. No need to debate on it.

I know i am coming into this thread 900+ posts behind, but i have just re-read SS/PS and remembered how outraged I was at Snape for what he did to Harry from the very first potions class to the last. With no provocation whatsoever he singled out Harry for humiliation, derision, scorn, unfairness, injustice, etc., etc., etc. There was no excuse for it. It all made me ask why did Dumbledore tolerate it? How on earth could the headmaster of a school allow a teacher to abuse a student like that?

The only answers that make any sense -- in light of the following five books -- are that Snape has something over Dumbledore, or Dumbledore needs Snape for something so important that Snape knows he can indulge his most vicious revenge fantasies on the son of someone he hated (maybe for good reasons).

I have read all the theories about Good! vs. Bad! Snape, but none of it excuses Snape for his horrible treatment of a totally innocent student. Snape is bad (with a smal "b"). And because Dumbledore lets him get away with it, the two of them must be in cahoots about something. IMO Snape is on the side of the Order and killed Dumbledore at DD's behest, but that will never redeem him in my eyes, because what he did to Harry in Harry's first potions class shows Snape to be twisted, sadistic, petty, bitter, ...

I think that we need a thread where fans can just come up with adjectives for this truly disturbed individual, who has no business teaching young children.

JKR has said that she can't understand how anyone can like Snape. :clap:

(One question technical quesrion: How do you do to "quote" separately the text, paragraph by paragraph. When I clik on "quote" it's the whole message that is copied. To make my answers clear, I have to color them !)
I wondered why you were doing that...it also makes you a bit harder to quote! Simple. Edit out the bit you actually want to quote, select it with a mouse, and then press the button that looks like the little balloon with text on it, and the [*QUOTE] and [*/QUOTE] (without the *) will appear automatically around the piece you highlighted. Or, you can type them in by hand where you want.

I see no need for Snape to forbid Harry call Voldemort by his name.
There is no need. It just really bothers Snape. (Isn't this one of the instances in which he unconsciously rubs his Mark?)

I said that Dumbledore thought that the DADA post would bring out the worst in Snape. And I said that the curse would bring out the worst in the teacher if the teacher is himself evil.
Right. And all I was arguing was that this is even true of a teacher who is good. So Dumbledore could hold this opinion about a good teacher.


The curse hadn't brought out any "worst" in Mad Eye Moody. His has benn locked in his trunk all the time, before the beginning of term. He hasn't done anything at all, because he is not evil. He is paranoia, but he is not evil. He has been kidnapped by the Death Eaters, he is a victime, he is not the one who spreaded evil, who make people suffer.
The 'worst' does not have to mean 'great evil'. The worst in a person who is basically good is not going to be making people suffer and spreading evil. That would be Umbridge, Quirrell, and others, not Lupin and Moody. But it will still the the worst THEY have to offer. I also bet Moody is now even more paranoid.

His father's family name is Snape, not Prince. He works out his name as "Half- Blood-Prince", to me it is no better than the name Lord Voldemort.

First, the name appears to be a personal secret (whereas Riddle's ACTUAL name is), second, Riddle's half-blood status is not known, which Snape's would be if he chose to use his made up name. (Note Bella's angry denial to Harry in OotP). To me these are real differences.

So you think that Snape is quite a "fair" teacher ?
No, but he is also generally a pretty mean/strict teacher, so some of what Harry takes personally is just business. And Harry never gives Snape any credit for his positive actions. (Such as trying to save him from Quirrell's curse, or warning the Order in OotP, for example).

Yes, may be, it depends on circumstances. If he has to choose between his own life and having to protect Harry, he will not hesitate. If he doesn't respect the Unbreakable Vow, he'll die. If he kill Dumbledore, he'll have to protect Harry. But that's only a theory of mine. You are not forced to share with me !!! I try to explain the enigmatic "Severus ... please" while stiking on my theory that Snape may not be "Good" (on Dumbledore's side), but still in HP7, Snape will protect Harry.
I apologize if my post came across as hostile to your theory. I meant what I said about it. I read HBPalmost a year ago, and probably at least 1/2 of my 2000 posts were at least in part about Snape, so I am not likely to change my mind, but I am interested in what other people think about this and why anyway. And I don't recall reading a theory exactly like yours before. Which is why I was asking!

Seeing that apparently Draco will not have the courage to kill Dumbledore, Snape will have to kill Dumbledore to fulfill his part of responsibility in the Unbreakable Vow. It's only a theory of mine, if you think that it doen't stand, you don't have to accept.
Oh, I see. Snape would have preferred to have Draco do it, but had to act to save his own life, the way you see it. Dumbledore was asking him to do it so Draco wouldn't, and so Snape would be stuck with the pact. Actually, this does work well with my dog in the burning house bit, if Snape happens to be occasionally burdened by a conscience, but not enough so to be truly on the good side...


Do you really feel sorry for Snape to be "trapped". What could Dumbledore do when he realized that the one whom he trusted since 15 years has accepted to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill him. How could you think of a plan to remedy that ? Dumbledore "trappes" Snape by offering his own life.

No, the way you think of Snape I don't feel sorry for him at all, you are right. It's a fair trade. I just didn't quite understand your idea at first.

I do, though. I don't think he wanted to kill Dumbledore at all.

Snape has seen them running along the passageway. He had only to take the same passageway and arrive to the shack.

No, he only saw Lupin. (Lupin saw Petttigrew, and ran after him, Snape arrived later, just in time to see Lupin. Give Lupin a few minutes to get from the office to the passage and it is clear that Snape only saw him, Peter was well down the passage with Sirius and the kids. If he had seen the Trio, he would have seen (allegedly deceased) Peter Pettigrew as well. Rowling couldn't have that :D, we'd know Snape's evil if he had failed to investigate THAT.

But I have other theory. I'm not very sure that Voldemort will welcome the initiative of Snape in helping Draco.

Actually, I agree. I just think he may be happier about Dumbledore being dead than he is angry at Snape's interference. (Either way, enough to keep Snape around, as we both agree he is needed for Book 7's plot. He'll be protecting Harry, either because that's what he's been doing all along, he's good, or because of Dumbledore's pact with him.)

I believe Snape is in Limbo between bad and good.

The good, The bad, and the Potions Master

Snape is, in a class of his own, neither good nor bad. I'm certain that Snape started out on the good side and was good before he came to Hogwarts, then, upon meeting James Potter and starting a grudge against him he probably turned evil, yet while in Hogwarts he couldn't join either The Death Eaters OR The Order Of The Phoenix, there were just Schoolhouse Heroes and Zeroes, and I suppose Snape went from Hero to Zero.

So what happened to him after he left Hogwarts? I'm guessing that Snape started off by joining the Death Eaters. As Snape is supposedly 35 in the fifth book, Harry's parents would have been around that age too, meaning that Harry's parents were somewhere around 20 years of age when Harry was born. Now, Snape heard the prophecy, which happened while Lily was pregnant or around the time shortly before Harry's birth. Most Hogwarts students graduate and 18 years of age, meaning it would have given Snape about 2 years to find Voldemort and sign up to join the Death Eaters, before being able to tell Voldemort the Prophecy, I reckon Snape would have needed about 2 years to find Voldemort and so, I believe that it fits that Snape started out as a Death Eater.

The next big event was the murder of Harry's parents, and more importantly, the first destruction of Voldemort. After Harry supposedly "Killed," Voldemort, Snape probably believed his lord to be dead. At this point the phraze, "Evil Never Wins!" hit him hard. Snape then probably set out to join Dumbledore. In OOTP Snape is asked by Umbridge (Pg. 323) how many years he had been teaching at Hogwarts, Snape replies with 14. Harry is 15 when that happens and he was 1 when his parents were killed, meaning that Voldemort had gone down 14 years ago. Coincidence? I think not :)...

As Voldemort had already gone down 14 years prior to OOTP, there was no more work for the Order to do, meaning Snape would have to satisfy Dumbledore in some other way, such as teaching at his school. I reckon this is enough proof that from Snape was good for the 13 years from when Harry "killed" Voldemort the first time until Voldemort rose again in Harry's fourth year.

When Voldemort rose again I am certain that Snape was 100% good, seeing as Voldemort says that one of his death eater's has to be killed (Snape) for becoming a traitor (Sorry, I don't have GoF with me so I don't know the exact quote :p). Now, I'm not on Voldemort's side, but I do believe that he is an accomplished Legilimens and that he knew Snape really had become a traitor, which he had. So now Snape, who found out that his Master was alive again, had to do something to stay on BOTH Voldemort and Dumbledore's side. He then did different things that could prove him on either side, such as teach Harry occlemency. Ron states (Pg. 489 of OOTP) that he believes Snape is trying to make it easier for Voldemort, while Hermione thinks Snape's trying to make it harder for Voldemort. Sounds like one of those Devil/Angel things, don't it? Snape started doing things like this so that both Voldemort and Dumbledore believe Snape is on their side, that way nobody got hurt.

Now, for the big question - Why did Snape kill Dumbledore?
Dumbledore does give Snape the DADA position in HBP, I believe the reason for this was because he believed that Snape was edging back to Voldemort and that he wanted to give Snape more reason to be on his side. Voldemort did pretty much the same thing, offering Snape "Rewards" for service. Now who do you think was under pressure? Yup, you guessed it, Snape. Snape was probably under so much pressure that he couldn't decide who's side to be on, and felt that he couldn't continue the double agent role... thus, he killed Dumbledore, so Voldemort wouldn't hurt him. He couldn't have killed Voldemort because of the Prophecy, and thus he had to terminate his other option... so that nobody got hurt.

I'm sure that Snape will probably regret his actions, after all, we all do stupid things when we're under pressure. I think that Snape will turn out good in the end, even if he does some wrong things.

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Ok, that was very long... and took me and hour to type... I hope it still makes sense. Maybe I should submit it as an Editorial somewhere. lol.

That is a good point Marietta, and I suppose it makes sense. Snape probably was under pressure... only not from Voldy and Dumbly... FROM MILLIONS OF CRAZY FAN GIRLS! :lol:

Originally Posted by zgirnius

There is no need. It just really bothers Snape. (Isn't this one of the instances in which he unconsciously rubs his Mark?)
Yes. He did rub his arm.


The 'worst' does not have to mean 'great evil'. The worst in a person who is basically good is not going to be making people suffer and spreading evil. That would be Umbridge, Quirrell, and others, not Lupin and Moody. But it will still the the worst THEY have to offer. I also bet Moody is now even more paranoid.
I understand perfectly, after 9 months in the trunk! In the end of HP4, he was already very twitchy, jumping every time someone spoke to him.


First, the name appears to be a personal secret (whereas Riddle's ACTUAL name is), second, Riddle's half-blood status is not known, which Snape's would be if he chose to use his made up name. (Note Bella's angry denial to Harry in OotP). To me these are real differences.
That's an opinion.


No, the way you think of Snape I don't feel sorry for him at all, you are right. It's a fair trade. I just didn't quite understand your idea at first.
I had another counter-theory to what most people think of th enigmatic "Severus ... please...", in a post on May 23rd, in topic Dumbledor's pleas, page 7, on History of magic..



I just think he may be happier about Dumbledore being dead than he is angry at Snape's interference. (Either way, enough to keep Snape around, as we both agree he is needed for Book 7's plot. He'll be protecting Harry, either because that's what he's been doing all along, he's good, or because of Dumbledore's pact with him.)
The relation Snape-Harry is now in HP7 more personal than Voldemort-Harry. I never accept that Snape could be Good. So, in my opinion, Snape will have to protect Harry, because of the "Pact", while being a Death Eater through and through. He is the most controversial character JKR ever created, but I think JKR wants him to be so. That's just my opinion.

I have my theory on the end of book 7, in my post of May 19th, page 64, in topic "Who Will Live And Who Will Die ?".

I think I've suceeded in doing "QUOTE" ! Thanks.

I'm just going to add my 2 cents in. In the beginning of the series, JKR was always tricking me into thinking Snape was bad, but he never was. I believe JKR said that she thinks of the last two books as one, and when I read what Snape did it put me in mind of those first few books. We were sooo sure he was evil, but he never was. Now we have absolute proof, but I think it is simply another trick. Like she did in the first books, she has us convinced only to pull the rug out on us later. The fact that she has done it multiple times and she's a great writer. Here she is stringing us along again, some of us are buying it hook, line, and sinker. We'll just have to wait and see.

I think Snape's actions at the end of the book are telling though. He is still teaching Harry how to use his magic better. He knows Harry still has his potions book, he may even know where he has put it since Harry is not very good at hiding his thoughts. At the end, he is correcting Harry and telling him how to improve. Why would he do that if he were evil? Even if Snape swore to Dumbledore to protect Harry, I don't think he'd take it that far if he was evil. He could do much less and still be "protecting Harry."

Whichever side he is on Snape will be an asset to. If he is on the good side there will be big problems though. Everyone is mad at him for Dumbledore. It kind of reminds me of what happened to Sirius. Sirius didn't really betray Lily and James, but no one knew that. So everyone was mad at him. Snape will have to be quite convincing if he is to keep his skin. Everyone will be after him. If he protects Draco from Lord Voldemort, that side will be after him to. If he is on the good side, I think it's a great thing that he is so clever, but he better work on explaining himself. Otherwise when the Order catches up to him, he's in big trouble.

The relation Snape-Harry is now in HP7 more personal than Voldemort-Harry. I never accept that Snape could be Good. So, in my opinion, Snape will have to protect Harry, because of the "Pact", while being a Death Eater through and through. He is the most controversial character JKR ever created, but I think JKR wants him to be so. That's just my opinion.
I think he'll wind up being controversial no matter WHAT he turns out to be. Lots of people are saying they could never forgive him, which suggests that IF she does go with a 'he's good' twist, he'll still be controversial.

I think that the personal nature of the Snape-Harry relationship is setting up an obstacle for Harry to overcome in Book 7. Harry's special power is supposed to be love; he really hates Snape. If Snape is really evil, that's appropriate...but if Snape is not, and Harry has to overcome this feeling he has, I think that could be very interesting. Just MY opinion, of course!

I think I've suceeded in doing "QUOTE" ! Thanks.

You're welcome! :cool:

I think he'll wind up being controversial no matter WHAT he turns out to be. Lots of people are saying they could never forgive him, which suggests that IF she does go with a 'he's good' twist, he'll still be controversial.

I think that the personal nature of the Snape-Harry relationship is setting up an obstacle for Harry to overcome in Book 7. Harry's special power is supposed to be love; he really hates Snape. If Snape is really evil, that's appropriate...but if Snape is not, and Harry has to overcome this feeling he has, I think that could be very interesting. Just MY opinion, of course!


I think Harry will overcome his feelings. He is a good boy.

He hates Wormtail for his betrayal towards his parents, but he spared him death when Sirius and Lupin wanted to kill him.

He hates Bellatrix for having killed Sirius, he hates Snapes for having killed Dumbledore, but he has never used the killing curse against them, when he had the occasion.

He will have to kill Voldemort because if he doesn't, it will be him, Harry, who will be killed. Yet I don't think he'll use the killing curse not because he is not skillful enough, but because he is not a killer.

JKR always emphasizes that the strength of Harry is Love. I have my theory on that in my post in the topic Book 7 - Who will live and who will die, on page 64, dated May 19th.

As for Snape, Harry said in the end of HP6: "... and if I meet Severus Snape along the way, so much the beter for me, so much the worse for him". One could understand it like that "If ever I meet Snape ..." Harry will not go hunting down Snape to kill him. And yet, it was only a phrase thrown out under the influence of anger.

I have my theory on Bill in book 7 posted today.

I think that the personal nature of the Snape-Harry relationship is setting up an obstacle for Harry to overcome in Book 7.
I have to say that Harry is someone who can forgive; we have already seen that with Pettigrew. Not forgive in the sense of let’s forget all what has happened but forgive in the sense that he doesn’t seek personal vengeance but deliver a real perpetrator to the proper instances.

And since we’ve seen from the Pettigrew example that Harry can do just that I doubt that Harry forgiving Snape is a major theme in the last book if we’re talking evil Snape.. If Snape is evil Harry will probably follow the Pettigrew example. This is foreshadowed in HBP; Harry has already decided that Snape is not his priority.
If Snape is on the good side this will be more interesting. First Snape has to convince Harry that murdering Dumbledore was an act of loyalty. Once this stumbling block is out of the way Harry can cooperate with Snape. He will do it grudgingly but we already know he will do it. The telling Snape that he got padfoot is an example of this. If it really matters Harry can put his thoughts about Snape aside.

The real sticker is if Snape can. Harry may hate Snape but on the whole Snape started it and continued degrading Harry at every opportunity. There are lots of theories out there which suggest that Snape really is trying to help Harry the whole time, that he is someone who is tragically misunderstood by Harry but that doesn’t hold much water. We are not shown this; it is all speculation that what Snape does has a different intention. But we are left with what Snape does and that is not a person who can work with Harry. The current outstanding theories don’t solve that problem, the usually are focused on Harry. But how can Snape cooperate with Harry if so far he has proven he can’t and we have nothing which indicates that Snape might change?

I think Snape loyalties are not definite. People who say that he is obviously bad or obviously good NOW are both wrong. Snape is THE convoluted, mysterious character of the book and he has always been. I don't see his loyalties being resolved before the end of book 7, and probably in a very radical way so that no one can argue anymore about it. However I'm sure Snape's story won't go without a couple more twists.

Now why do I hope Snape will turn out to be on the good side: JKR has always said she wants to write what is right. Why does Harry hate Snape in the first place? He hated him at the first glance, before the classes even started. Harry hate Voldemort in the first place because of his parents, Harry hated Sirius in the first place because of the supposed betrayal, and he even gave him a chance. But Harry hated Snape for no valuable reason in the first place. Now Snape humiliates him in class, but he also humiliates Neville, and Neville is not telling anybody who would listen that Snape is evil the way Harry did. After Harry learned Snape is a Death Eater but he is also told that Snape was a spy, but Harry does not trust Dumbledore. Harry's reasons to hate Snape and accused him every time he can to be as evil as Voldemort is just blunt intolerance. Snape's reasons to hate Harry are not good either but they do exists (look alike James who humiliated and despised Snape).
I hope that Snape will turn out to be on the good side because I don't want intolerance winning over knowledge. Even when Snape was proved innocent (let's say at the end of POA) Harry did not give him a chance, Dumbledore knew Snape a billion times better than Harry will ever do, Dumbledore had been Snape's teacher/headmaster, his boss, he worked along him, Dumbledore was here during Voldemort rise and first fall and saw how Snape was doing at the time of the fall out, he knows what information Snape gave him and how useful/true they were. Harry does not know anything about that. Dumbledore may have his flaws but I hope that the intolerance of an 11 years old young boy will not win over the knowledge and wisdom of one of the greatest wizard. And yes now Harry has a good reason to hate Snape at that point, but until Dumbledore's death, Harry's reasons were not justifying so much hate.
I think that Snape will prove his loyalties by dying for Harry, that's the only way for Harry to understand. BTW I don't believe that Snape is good just that he is on the good side.

I have to say that Harry is someone who can forgive; we have already seen that with Pettigrew. Not forgive in the sense of let’s forget all what has happened but forgive in the sense that he doesn’t seek personal vengeance but deliver a real perpetrator to the proper instances.
I'm not saying Harry wouldn't forgive Snape, especially WHEN he discovers Snape was acting on Voldemort's orders, but he didn't forgive Pettigrew. He just didn't want Sirius or Lupin to kill him because that would make the murderers.

The real sticker is if Snape can. Harry may hate Snape but on the whole Snape started it and continued degrading Harry at every opportunity. There are lots of theories out there which suggest that Snape really is trying to help Harry the whole time, that he is someone who is tragically misunderstood by Harry but that doesn’t hold much water. We are not shown this; it is all speculation that what Snape does has a different intention. But we are left with what Snape does and that is not a person who can work with Harry. The current outstanding theories don’t solve that problem, the usually are focused on Harry. But how can Snape cooperate with Harry if so far he has proven he can’t and we have nothing which indicates that Snape might change?

Actually, I still think it will be Harry who accomplishes this seemingly insurmountable task. I don't agree Snape is written in a way that forces us to conclude he cannot change at all. IF he is 'good', he has been working with Dumbledore, so it is possible for someone to reach him. Harry, to whom Dumbledore's mantle has passed, may be able to accomplish the same trick.

I don't see his loyalties being resolved before the end of book 7, and probably in a very radical way so that no one can argue anymore about it. However I'm sure Snape's story won't go without a couple more twists.
A fear of mine is that she might instead kill him off in a way that LEAVES him ambiguous, leaving us to continue this sort of debate indefinitely...

I Don't know whether he is good or bad, but I have one thing on my mind, which I already mentioned at another thread. Couldn't we try to look at Crookshanks' behaviour when Snape was around? Maybe it would help us to decide...

Weren’t they both in the Shrieking Shack at the end of PoA? There was no mention of Crookshanks reacting negatively to Snape, so I guess that he didn’t find Snape particularly suspicious.

A fear of mine is that she might instead kill him off in a way that LEAVES him ambiguous, leaving us to continue this sort of debate indefinitely...
That would be horrible! The debates are fun now that we know that book 7 will give us the answer one way or the other, but debating this forever would be awful. But I don’t think JKR would do that, I think she intends to have a definite conclusion to Snape’s story. I seem to remember that she has said in an interview that we will have all the information we need when we’ve read book 7, but now I can’t find that interview. Maybe I just made this up? Does anyone remember if she has actually said this?

. But I don’t think JKR would do that, I think she intends to have a definite conclusion to Snape’s story. I seem to remember that she has said in an interview that we will have all the information we need when we’ve read book 7, but now I can’t find that interview. Maybe I just made this up? Does anyone remember if she has actually said this?
Unfortunately the Quick Quotes Quill site is down right now, or I would try to post a quote. My recollection matches yours.

Actually, I found it elsewhere (http://members.cox.net/styteller/JKR%20interview/JKR%20interview.htm):
Bobby: Any thoughts about a prequel series?
JK Rowling replies -> No, no prequels here. You won't need them by the time I've finished, you'll have all the back story you'll need!

Thanks for reminding me of this!:D

Actually, I still think it will be Harry who accomplishes this seemingly insurmountable task. I don't agree Snape is written in a way that forces us to conclude he cannot change at all. IF he is 'good', he has been working with Dumbledore, so it is possible for someone to reach him. Harry, to whom Dumbledore's mantle has passed, may be able to accomplish the same trick.


A fear of mine is that she might instead kill him off in a way that LEAVES him ambiguous, leaving us to continue this sort of debate indefinitely...

I have to think that Snape not being an ambiguous figure would make the books far less interesting. I believe given the choice of Draco or himself, Dumbledore would never choose to kill Draco and Snape was the only member of the order that was capable of killing him if it were required. Harry having his mother's eyes has been reffered to as important so I have long thought it would be in reguards to Snape. I can't help but think that Snape has been a "good guy" capable of evil acts from the begining and his role will eventually play out to prove him a decidedly "good" character. Most likely he will redeem himself in some way in the last book. If he doesn't, how could Harry possibly defeat him and Voltamort? Let's face it Neville had a good reason for the Bogart taking Snape's likeness, he is pretty tough, especially without Dumbledore keeping him in check, so to speak.
Just food for thought, if Dumbledore did order Snape to kill him, did the mantle pass to Harry or Snape?

Just food for thought, if Dumbledore did order Snape to kill him, did the mantle pass to Harry or Snape?

Harry, definitely: "Im not worried, Harry, I'm with you." Also, he is our hero...so it just makes sense.

But Snape may well have a job to do for Dumbledore as well!

I have to say that Harry is someone who can forgive; we have already seen that with Pettigrew. Not forgive in the sense of let’s forget all what has happened but forgive in the sense that he doesn’t seek personal vengeance but deliver a real perpetrator to the proper instances.
I agree that it was commendable that Harry did not kill Pettigrew, and also that he was not interested in personal vengeance. However, I think his main reason for not wanting him killed was because Pettigrew's story would prove Sirius to be innocent. Also, his fate would have been worse than death if the dementors had got hold of him.

None of those motives holds in Snape's case. If Harry finds him it will be very difficult to stop the feelings of personal vengeance. Harry could conceivably do the Order real harm, even if he does not kill Snape, unless he can control his hatred.

Harry could conceivably do the Order real harm, even if he does not kill Snape, unless he can control his hatred.
Wouldn't the rest of the Order probably kill Snape on sight as well?

Wouldn't the rest of the Order probably kill Snape on sight as well?Probably not. They would turn him in for trial, I believe. Except if forced to kill in self-defense.

Probably not. They would turn him in for trial, I believe. Except if forced to kill in self-defense.
You're probably right. Except Hagrid. Hagrid would tear him to pieces with his bare hands. Is Hagrid in the Order, anyway?

I don't believe Snape will. For one, what would he gain? What does he have to gain? Everyone knows he killed Dumbledore and if they believe that then what could he profit from if he all of a sudden said he wants to change? Who would he go to? What would the DEs do? what would Voldemort tell them to do? He would probably send them after him because betrayal is something eveyone frowns upon.

Whether Snape is secretly good or not makes no difference, I believe. No one will trust him again. I somehow doubt Voldemort truly trusts him because if Snape betrayed Dumbledore, what says he won't betray him as well?

Whether Snape is secretly good or not makes no difference, I believe. No one will trust him again. I somehow doubt Voldemort truly trusts him because if Snape betrayed Dumbledore, what says he won't betray him as well?

I agree. So if Snape is indeed good, then something really significant is going to have to happen in order for any of the good guys to trust him again.

As my mother would have said, never trust a man with a bad oral hygiene. But then again, they dont sell breath mint in the wizarding world so Snape seems like a possible candidate as a hypocrite to come to the good side before Draco does. I dont usually bash characters in Harry potter but I'll make an exception this one time. Snape's a weasel!! joining one side to another and another.

Even IF Snape acts as a trojan horse against Voldermort, it's a bit too late now since Dumbledore's gone. BUt I wouldnt be surprised if he comes knocking the door of the Order and become a weasel again.

Even IF Snape acts as a trojan horse against Voldermort, it's a bit too late now since Dumbledore's gone. BUt I wouldnt be surprised if he comes knocking the door of the Order and become a weasel again.
Trojan Horse is definitely one of the popular Book 7 theories of those of us who DO think Snape is good. I do not see how Dumbledore being dead would make Snape's hypothetical "Trojan Horse" role useless. We always knew it would not be Dumbledore who will defeat Voldemort...it will be Harry. As long as he is still around, it is not 'too late'.

The beauty of the Trojan Horse theory is that noone in the Order has to trust Snape in order for him to be effective.

Unfortunately the Quick Quotes Quill site is down right now, or I would try to post a quote. My recollection matches yours.

Actually, I found it elsewhere:
Quote:
Bobby: Any thoughts about a prequel series?
JK Rowling replies -> No, no prequels here. You won't need them by the time I've finished, you'll have all the back story you'll need!

Thanks for the quote! That’s exactly the interview I had in mind. So I guess we’ll find out the answer in about a year or so. :)

As my mother would have said, never trust a man with a bad oral hygiene. But then again, they dont sell breath mint in the wizarding world so Snape seems like a possible candidate as a hypocrite to come to the good side before Draco does. I dont usually bash characters in Harry potter but I'll make an exception this one time. Snape's a weasel!! joining one side to another and another.

Even IF Snape acts as a trojan horse against Voldermort, it's a bit too late now since Dumbledore's gone. BUt I wouldnt be surprised if he comes knocking the door of the Order and become a weasel again.
I thought you were going to say "...to come to the good side befoe brushing his teeth.":lol:

Snape is there to be bashed. James Potter and Sirius Black did it with relish. Students hate him. The only reason he could be at Hogwars is because Dumbledore needed him, whether for use as a Trojan Horse or for some other purpose. The reason can NOT be for teaching. For Dumbledore to allow Snape to treat students the way he did just so he could impart his admiittedly vast knowlege to them would contradict everything weknow about DD's kindness.

So there has to be something really significant in book 7 for Snape, something that will make a big difference in the final outcome. But even if Snape's Big Deal is wonderfully good, he will still be a total creep.

Snape is there to be bashed. James Potter and Sirius Black did it with relish. Students hate him. The only reason he could be at Hogwars is because Dumbledore needed him, whether for use as a Trojan Horse or for some other purpose. The reason can NOT be for teaching. For Dumbledore to allow Snape to treat students the way he did just so he could impart his admiittedly vast knowlege to them would contradict everything weknow about DD's kindness.
There is some logic to this. Trelawney is kept around merely so DD can protect her. However, it is my opinion that Snape is playing a role. Not that he doesn't hate Harry, I'm sure he does. But he has to give the impression of someone who longs to break free of the restrictive bounds of Hogwarts so that Draco and co. can report back to Mummy and Daddy and he'll look like a faithful DE.

There is some logic to this. Trelawney is kept around merely so DD can protect her. However, it is my opinion that Snape is playing a role. Not that he doesn't hate Harry, I'm sure he does. But he has to give the impression of someone who longs to break free of the restrictive bounds of Hogwarts so that Draco and co. can report back to Mummy and Daddy and he'll look like a faithful DE.
Yes. And what makes him really interesting is that he is playing multiple games on multiple levels. His performance at Spinners End for Bella and Narcy, capped with an Unbreakable Vow, is genius at work. He convinces them that his play-acting at Hogwarts has Voldemort's Good Housekeeping Stamp of Approval, and is also fooling the greatest wizard of the times, Albus Dumbledore. At Hogwarts he is able to indulge in his sadistic treatment of Harry and other students while at the same time retaining Dumbledore's good will, who is constantly having to provide everyone who knows Snape with assurances that he trusts him.

It is a truly amazing performance, and the best part is that best part is yet to come.

But he's still a creep.

But he has to give the impression of someone who longs to break free of the restrictive bounds of Hogwarts so that Draco and co. can report back to Mummy and Daddy and he'll look like a faithful DE.
This is a contradiction of what Lucius himself tells Draco in COS: one should appear to be fond of Harry Potter. Lucius is smart; he would understand that if Snape played a role, just as he himself does at the ministry. For someone like Lucius it is more likely that Snape’s behaviour with Harry causes suspicion instead of the opposite. Lucius can understand biding one’s time, playing safe until new opportunities arise, taking care of yourself. Can he understand what purpose Snape has in becoming estranged from Dumbledore’s favourite when one has to be on the good side of Dumbledore?

This is a contradiction of what Lucius himself tells Draco in COS: one should appear to be fond of Harry Potter. Lucius is smart; he would understand that if Snape played a role, just as he himself does at the ministry. For someone like Lucius it is more likely that Snape’s behaviour with Harry causes suspicion instead of the opposite. Lucius can understand biding one’s time, playing safe until new opportunities arise, taking care of yourself. Can he understand what purpose Snape has in becoming estranged from Dumbledore’s favourite when one has to be on the good side of Dumbledore?
I can't believe that Lucius really thinks that he is fooling anyone. For example, in CoS when he appears at Hagrid's hut with the order to dismiss Dumbledore, he talks about preventing attacks on Muggles, but it is clear that he means just the opposite. Not even Fudge is deceived. Earlier in the same book, in Flourish and Blotts, he makes veiled but obvious threats against Harry and the entire Weasley family. I think that he believes he is on the winning side, and as long as he does nothing blatant he will not be touched. It's all a result of his innate arrogance and Muggle-ism.

Even IF Snape acts as a trojan horse against Voldermort, it's a bit too late now since Dumbledore's gone. BUt I wouldnt be surprised if he comes knocking the door of the Order and become a weasel again.

Yeah, but I don't think they would open the door. It would be suicide if he went back to them. Who would he prove his "changed ways" to? Where would he go?

Hi,

I think Snape is working for himself, in the most honoured of Slytherin traditions, and will continue to do so until the end (which he will reach).

cheers

There is alot of debate over Dumbledore's pleading with Snape on the Tower. I think that there is no way that D would have asked S for mercy on his own behalf. He must have been asking for something else. I think that he was asking Snape to continue to protect Harry. This would also explain why Snape didn't curse Harry on the grounds as he was escaping.

There is alot of debate over Dumbledore's pleading with Snape on the Tower. I think that there is no way that D would have asked S for mercy on his own behalf. He must have been asking for something else. I think that he was asking Snape to continue to protect Harry. This would also explain why Snape didn't curse Harry on the grounds as he was escaping.

Well, if you put all your trust into someone and you ended up in a bad position and they had a look of disgust in their eyes, wouldn't you plead with them too? Anyway, I think Dumbledore knew Snape hated Harry. How could he entrust Snape with Harry's life?

JKR said:

JKR: "You shouldn't think him[Snape is] too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely." (Royal Albert Hall 2003)

But you must not forget that Snape was a Death Eater.… Why do you love him? Why do people love Snape ? I do not understand this." [Edinburgh Book Festival, 2004]

I personally don't think Snape "Good", It's difficult to think Snape good, i.e. on Dumbledore's side, specially when he accepts the Unbreakable Vow to proteck Draco and to help Draco fulfill a mission for Voldemort, without being forced to..

As for Dumbledore pleading Snape on the Tower, I have a theory on that "The enigmatic "Severus ... please" in my post dated 21st May, in the topic "Dumbledore's pleas", page 7, in History of magic study.

Well, if you put all your trust into someone and you ended up in a bad position and they had a look of disgust in their eyes, wouldn't you plead with them too? Anyway, I think Dumbledore knew Snape hated Harry. How could he entrust Snape with Harry's life?

The problem here is that Snape does not HAVE a look of disgust on his face when Dumbledore starts pleading with him.

"the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and Malfoy."
No expression of disgust, but then we are told:
someone else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.
"Severus..."
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.

Snape walks toward Dumbledore and shoves Draco out of the way. Only then we are told:

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

Then Dumbledore pleads again, and Snape kills him. There was no visual or verbal cue from Snape to arouse Dumbledore's suspicions at the time he started pleading. This is why I think he died still trusting Snape. He was asking for something other than the obvious, and he thinks he got it.

Now, he could have been wrong about this...but that's another post.:D

Well, if you put all your trust into someone and you ended up in a bad position and they had a look of disgust in their eyes, wouldn't you plead with them too? Anyway, I think Dumbledore knew Snape hated Harry. How could he entrust Snape with Harry's life?
I also wondered about the look of disgust, but someone on another thread pointed out that it is the same phrase used to describe Harry when he is forcing the potion on DD in the cave. I am not sure I aqreee, but it is possible that Snape is having a similar reaction.

As for trusting Harry with Snape, DD told Harry to take occlumency lessons with the guy. That was also entrusting Harry's life to Snape.

As for trusting Harry with Snape, DD told Harry to take occlumency lessons with the guy. That was also entrusting Harry's life to Snape.
To pick an example from the same night, AFTER arriving at a castle with the Dark Mark overhead, Dumbledore tried to send Harry to Snape, and warned him to go to noone else. This was trusting Snape with Harry's life the very same night.

I really think that Snape is out for himself. There is a distiction between "disgust" that Harry felt giving Dumbledore the potion and "hatred" and "revulsion" that was in Snape's eyes. I think that Snape was just mad that his hand was forced and he had to pick one side. Clearly he could not battle 4 Death Eaters and Malfoy to save DD, even if he suspected-and knew--that Harry was up on the tower as evidenced by the brooms. However, he could obviously chosen a side an look for the owner of the other broom, but he knew it was Harry , knew that the Order was after them and knew that LV wanted to kill Harry himself.\

Snape is out for himself. Period.

I think that Snape was just mad that his hand was forced and he had to pick one side. Clearly he could not battle 4 Death Eaters and Malfoy to save Dumbledore, even if he suspected-and knew--that Harry was up on the tower as evidenced by the brooms. However, he could obviously chosen a side an look for the owner of the other broom, but he knew it was Harry , knew that the Order was after them and knew that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry himself.

That's what I thought at first.

But then again, why would he act as though Harry should be grateful to him, he did save Harry. Then I started to question why would he do that. He hates Harry, he could have been scared of LV's wrath, but that didn't really fit either. At least torture him a bit or something, but he only seemed to be trying to teach Harry a lesson that we know Harry has a problem with. Closing his mind.

But that's just my opinion.

well, I have some reading to catch up on this thread, but I will just cut to the chase on my opinion, so I can subscribe.
Snape is not a good person, like Jo said in an interview, he is a real piece of work, but that does not mean he is evil (I think of his personality like his underwear. It is slightly grey). I do not think he has taken that final step, yet, and it is going to come down to his choices. He is trying to stay on the good side, but it would be really easy for him to cross that line.

I think that Snape was just mad that his hand was forced and he had to pick one side. Clearly he could not battle 4 Death Eaters and Malfoy to save DD, even if he suspected-and knew--that Harry was up on the tower as evidenced by the brooms. However, he could obviously chosen a side an look for the owner of the other broom, but he knew it was Harry , knew that the Order was after them and knew that LV wanted to kill Harry himself.

Snape is out for himself. Period.

How this works at the end of HBP is clear.:) Snape's choices are to kill Dumbledore or die trying to rescue him, if he's out for himself he will obviously go for the former. What I have trouble with is deciding what, in general, Snape is after if he's not on either side, and how that explains his actions over the course of the books.

i still havent read every single post as i logged in yesterday but i definately support the "snape-is-good" theory!!!!doesnt the keep yor mouth shut and your mind closed sound to you as an advice for harry in order to have a chance defeting dark lord?????i think that harry will realise that snape is good only after snape will get by an avada kedavra in order to save harry
snape would also(i hope) help harry with the horcruxes without harrys immediate awareness
e.g hope i am not repeating somebodys thoughts!!if so fogive me i still am new around!!!!!!!!

i still havent read every single post as i logged in yesterday but i definately support the "snape-is-good" theory!!!!doesnt the keep yor mouth shut and your mind closed sound to you as an advice for harry in order to have a chance defeting dark lord?????i think that harry will realise that snape is good only after snape will get by an avada kedavra in order to save harry
snape would also(i hope) help harry with the horcruxes without harrys immediate awareness
e.g hope i am not repeating somebodys thoughts!!if so fogive me i still am new around!!!!!!!!

i still havent read every single post as i logged in yesterday but i definately support the "snape-is-good" theory!!!!doesnt the keep yor mouth shut and your mind closed sound to you as an advice for harry in order to have a chance defeting dark lord?????i think that harry will realise that snape is good only after snape will get by an avada kedavra in order to save harry
snape would also(i hope) help harry with the horcruxes without harrys immediate awareness
e.g hope i am not repeating somebodys thoughts!!if so fogive me i still am new around!!!!!!!!

i still havent read every single post as i logged in yesterday but i definately support the "snape-is-good" theory!!!!doesnt the keep yor mouth shut and your mind closed sound to you as an advice for harry in order to have a chance defeting dark lord?????i think that harry will realise that snape is good only after snape will get by an avada kedavra in order to save harry
snape would also(i hope) help harry with the horcruxes without harrys immediate awareness
e.g hope i am not repeating somebodys thoughts!!if so fogive me i still am new around!!!!!!!!

"doesnt the keep your mouth shut and your mind closed" sound to you, as it sounds to me, as a way to insult Harry !!! .

on the contrary!thik about it in ootp we heard of occlumency as a way to block ones mind against dark lord!in hbp we lerned about nvbl- spells!!!it all makes perfekt sense!!snape was giving harry instructions so that he defeats voldemort!do not falsely accuse snape because he killed dumbledor!he propably did not want to do it but had to as the little chat between hin and dumbledor shows-the chat in the forest that overheard hagrid!!!

"doesnt the keep your mouth shut and your mind closed" sound to you, as it sounds to me, as a way to insult Harry !!! .

Somehow I agree with greekwizard and somehow I agree with you. Snape does hate Harry but he also help him (not always willingly though, occlumency, HPB book, bezoar). I believe what he said to Harry was an advice, but since he hate harry he put it ina rude and insulting Harry, however the part "mind closed" is kinda a wierdo insult when you think about it that's why I guess it's also an advice (espacially when you remember that Snape did teach non-verbal spells ("keep your mouth shut") and occlumency ("keep your mind closed"). The problem is Harry refuses to take anything from Snape (except when he does not know it's from Snape), I find that stupid, even if Snape is bad, all the information and knowledge he can give is good to take, but Harry is far too stubborn to get that.

Maybe snape, as a teacher, just thinks it's his duty to teach even the most annoying brats at least something.:lol:

But, considering the possibility that Snape isn't loyal to Voldemort either, he might want Harry to survive and eventually be able to defeat Voldemort. I'm not sure it would prove him 'good', though.

Maybe snape, as a teacher, just thinks it's his duty to teach even the most annoying brats at least something.:lol:

But, considering the possibility that Snape isn't loyal to Voldemort either, he might want Harry to survive and eventually be able to defeat Voldemort. I'm not sure it would prove him 'good', though.

I agree. I mean even in the first book he refers some of his students as dunderheads.
PS/SS American HB page 137
"if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as Iusually have to teach"
Does his "advice" make him good... I'm not sure but it does make him an interesting character.

I don't have time to read through all the posts, packing for a trip, but perhaps one who has can respond:

Is there any consideration that while a mean person, Snape is against Voldy because during the GOF, he along with Dumbledore and Minerva were in Barty's mirror?

Also, why didnt' he just finish Harry off when he was running from the castle?

One last thing, doesn't Avada Kedavra typically leave the bodies near the spot where they were hit?

Could Fawkes have swooped in and taken the blow?

Thanks in advance, and hope these haven't been too bandied about...

I don't have time to read through all the posts, packing for a trip, but perhaps one who has can respond:

Is there any consideration that while a mean person, Snape is against Voldy because during the GOF, he along with Dumbledore and Minerva were in Barty's mirror?

Also, why didnt' he just finish Harry off when he was running from the castle?

One last thing, doesn't Avada Kedavra typically leave the bodies near the spot where they were hit? Did Fawkes swoop in and take the blow?

Thanks in advance, and hope these haven't been too bandied about...
Yes, all three points have been raised in favor of Snape. :)

The standard rebuttals are:

1) we don't know how the Foe Glass works, maybe Snape showed upbecause at the time he was helping Dumbledore, in order to keep his cover, and this made him a threat to Jr. even though they were on the same side.
2) Maybe Snape wasn't lying when he said the Dark Lord had ordered Harry to be left.
3) Poetic license. Or, "there was nothing unusual about the Avada Kedavra".

Actually, I don't recall anyone suggesting Fawkes swooped in. We've seen him do it before (OotP), and he was not invisible. Why would this be different?

Somehow I agree with greekwizard and somehow I agree with you. Snape does hate Harry but he also help him (not always willingly though, occlumency, HPB book, bezoar). I believe what he said to Harry was an advice, but since he hate harry he put it ina rude and insulting Harry, however the part "mind closed" is kinda a wierdo insult when you think about it that's why I guess it's also an advice (espacially when you remember that Snape did teach non-verbal spells ("keep your mouth shut") and occlumency ("keep your mind closed"). The problem is Harry refuses to take anything from Snape (except when he does not know it's from Snape), I find that stupid, even if Snape is bad, all the information and knowledge he can give is good to take, but Harry is far too stubborn to get that.


One can learn things from an insult just as one learns things from a failure !
The bezoar is a way to insult Harry before the whole class right in the very fist lesson of potions in the very fist year ! If you call the bezoar incident a lesson, then it's was a lesson for the whole class, Snape was a teacher of potions, No ? A lesson for the whole class, but for Harry it was an insult.


and occlumency ("keep your mind closed"). The problem is Harry refuses to take anything from Snape

You would agree that Snape didn't make things easier for Harry, each time he roused anger in Harry (first), how could Harry close his mind !

I absolutely agree that he was teaching Harry a lesson at the end of book 6. He had to make it look like he was insulting him though, otherwise Voldy would doubt his loyalty.
Snape does not want Harry using any UCs because then he would not be pure and would not be able to defeat Voldy and all his work would be for nothing and he was trying to make Harry mad, because he is trying to show Harry that he has to learn to control his emotions in order to keep his mind closed.

One can learn things from an insult just as one learns things from a failure !
The bezoar is a way to insult Harry before the whole class right in the very fist lesson of potions in the very fist year ! If you call the bezoar incident a lesson, then it's was a lesson for the whole class, Snape was a teacher of potions, No ? A lesson for the whole class, but for Harry it was an insult.



You would agree that Snape did make things easier for Harry, each time he roused anger in Harry (first)


mind you someone could point out that maybe snape has actually been trying to sink some useful knowledge into harry's head from the vevy begining. just because harry was not listening does not mean the lesson was not there. hermione points this out when harry says that without the half-blood prince's book he never would have known to use the bezoar. forgive me beause i do not have my HBP at hand or i would give the exact quote.she reminds him how Professor snape mentioned the bezoar in their first every potions class. someone could help me out with that quote.

One can learn things from an insult just as one learns things from a failure !
The bezoar is a way to insult Harry before the whole class right in the very fist lesson of potions in the very fist year ! If you call the bezoar incident a lesson, then it's was a lesson for the whole class, Snape was a teacher of potions, No ? A lesson for the whole class, but for Harry it was an insult.



You would agree that Snape didn't make things easier for Harry, each time he roused anger in Harry (first), how could Harry close his mind !

But Harry remembered the use of the bezoar to save Ron because of that incident (the name pops up because of the HPB book, but the use is from Snape's lesson). I am not saying that Snape is a good teacher, but Harry is far from a good student. Snape is hard on more than one student (he's hard on all the gryffindors for example), however Harry is the only one who blocks on that. Harry is insolent and don't listen in class. However things that struck him the most came from the hard words of Snape (like the bezoar, and i'm sure that occlumency and NV spells will have some importance at a point). Snape is a totally unfair professor but not just with Harry, however Harry is his worst student (not in academic level but in attitude). I'm just saying that Harry should understand that he should take all the information / knowledge he can, not depending on who gave it to him.
BTW do you think Voldy will make things easy for Harry to close his mind, of course Snape was hard because if / when Voldy will check in Harry's head he's not gonna be sweet. I bet that's why Dumbledore asked Snape and did not do it himself.

mind you someone could point out that maybe snape has actually been trying to sink some useful knowledge into harry's head from the vevy begining. just because harry was not listening does not mean the lesson was not there. hermione points this out when harry says that without the half-blood prince's book he never would have known to use the bezoar. forgive me beause i do not have my HBP at hand or i would give the exact quote.she reminds him how Professor snape mentioned the bezoar in their first every potions class. someone could help me out with that quote.


But none of the class (not even Hermione) remembered the qualities of the bezoar. They all considered the bezoar "incident" in their first lesson in their first year as an insult to Harry rather than a potion lesson ! If it was for Snape a lesson, then Snape is a very incompetent teacher.

But none of the class (not even Hermione) remembered the qualities of the bezoar. They all considered the bezoar "incident" in their first lesson in their first year as an insult to Harry rather than a potion lesson ! If it was for Snape a lesson, then Snape is a very incompetent teacher.


:lol: I never actually said he was a good teacher,but we all have to admit the man knows what he is talking about. we have to remember that when we see something happen in the book that we are seeing it in Harry's point of view. I mean yes Severus looked like the mean nasty teacher that alot of people thought he was. all i am saying is what if there was more to his constant use of harry as the gene pig in his classes. to me the Bezoar is just like the lesson on non verbal spells. Yes Severus Snape was not right to single out harry all the time, but if anyone in that class needed to master non verbal spells more than harry i do not know who it is. i just think that there might be more to Snapes constant aggravation with harry than we think.

I personally don’t think Snape was trying to teach Harry anything at the end of HBP. Snape doesn’t think Harry learns anything from him, so why would he bother? And even by Snape’s own standards expecting Harry to listen to his “advice” in the middle of a fight and between insults to Harry’s father seems unlikely.

Besides: part of his “advice” is wrong advice. Dumbledore showed no interest whatsoever in Harry learning occlumency in HBP. Dumbledore explicitly told Harry (at the end of OOTP) that his heart was his greatest strenghth, that it didn’t matter that he couldn’t close his mind. And Dumbledore doesn’t think it is important anymore for Harry to learn occlumency in HBP. So it would be a very strange advice from Snape, since it contradicts Dumbledore. Therefore I see this as a taunt about the fiasco in OOTP, not as valuable advice about what Harry must learn to defeat Voldemort, since Harry doesn’t need to learn occlumency to defeat Voldemort.

Snape doesn’t think Harry learns anything from him, so why would he bother?
I'm not so sure of this. Snape has seen examples of things Harry learned from him, bith as Snape (Expelliarmus, which Harry used successfully on Snape in PoA, comes to mind), and as the Half-Blood Prince (Potions excellence, and assorted spells).

So it would be a very strange advice from Snape, since it contradicts Dumbledore. Therefore I see this as a taunt about the fiasco in OOTP, not as valuable advice about what Harry must learn to defeat Voldemort, since Harry doesn’t need to learn occlumency to defeat Voldemort.

Snape does not strike me as a person who believes in the power of love. Even if he is loyal to Dumbledore, he may not share Dumbledore's confidence that Harry already has what it will take to defeat Voldemort.

Snape is surely good.Why?
Because he protected Harry from the deatheater(pretended that Harry was Lord Voldemort's)If he had wanted, he could have killed him right then.
He killed Dumbledore yes.But do u ever think Dumb as begging.No,he knew that.He wasn't begging for himself, he was begging for sth else.(maybe sone)
He was good.Because Dumb trusted him.He had sth to trust him.And we will see that in book 7

Snape is surely good.Why?
Because he protected Harry from the deatheater(pretended that Harry was Lord Voldemort's)If he had wanted, he could have killed him right then.
He killed Dumbledore yes.But do u ever think Dumb as begging.No,he knew that. He wasn't begging for himself, he was begging for sth else.(maybe sone)
He was good.Because Dumb trusted him.He had sth to trust him.And we will see that in book 7

I have posted a theory on the enigmatic "Severus ... please" in History of Magic, under the thread "Dumbledore's pleas", on page 7, dated May 21st. He begged Snape to kill him.
That's only a theory, I may be wrong.

I think Snape switches back and forth, and is never quite sure what side he's on. I definately don't think he's like Pettigrew though, playing whatever side is winning. He seems to want vengence on people on both sides- so he chooses according to what he can get done.

Snape got suckered into the bad side first, and moved through the ranks. Then, somewhere, Voldy did something and he switched sides. Then, for some other reason, he switched back. This is why he responds to Harry calling him a coward so violently- because in real life, he is nothing more than that. He switches to what side is benefical to his needs. I have more theories on this, but I plan to type them up instead after I research more.

I think Snape switches back and forth, and is never quite sure what side he's on. I definately don't think he's like Pettigrew though, playing whatever side is winning. He seems to want vengence on people on both sides- so he chooses according to what he can get done.

Snape got suckered into the bad side first, and moved through the ranks. Then, somewhere, Voldy did something and he switched sides. Then, for some other reason, he switched back. This is why he responds to Harry calling him a coward so violently- because in real life, he is nothing more than that. He switches to what side is benefical to his needs. I have more theories on this, but I plan to type them up instead after I research more.
This is a pretty interesting theory that I have not seen before (doesn't mean it does not exist :) ). It fits in with the Slytherin ethic of every wizard for himself.

It would be kind of risky, though. Snape would be exposing himself to both LV and DD, the two most powerful wizards around. Granted, Snape is very strong himself, but he would have to be constantly coming up with ways to appear loyal to both sides. It does have the literary merit of making his next move completely unpredictable.

It would be kind of risky, though. Snape would be exposing himself to both Voldemort and Dumbledore, the two most powerful wizards around. Granted, Snape is very strong himself, but he would have to be constantly coming up with ways to appear loyal to both sides. It does have the literary merit of making his next move completely unpredictable.

Yes, it would definately be risky. But has Snape ever really told the truth to either Voldy or Dumbledore? Look, it seems to me like Snape lies, or mixes the truth in with the lies. He has learned to operate by himself (Think 11-year-old Tom Riddle) and can be sneaky and lie to fool people much higher up than him. Besides, I think that he thinks that no one can outsmart him. He knows he's intelligent, why else would he make up spells, write them down, and keep them like he did? I think his downfall might be that he thinks he knows more than he does, and tries to lie where he can't.

I personally believe that snape is pure evil and killed dumbledore porposly and without feelings. But I also believe that there may be a tiny chance of snape being good. For all we know snape and dumbledore could of planned the death in order to keep snape out of trouble with voldemort and to make dumbledore more powerful. Dont forget the fact that dumbledores pic will be in his old headmaster office!^_^ He lives!!!!!:lol:

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Edit. Thanks for editing your post, you-know-who- you-are.

i dont think he is good. I mean, he killed one of the most trusted wizards ever and even if he wanted to go back to the good side, I dont think anyone would welcome him back. this is just my opinion.

I just don't know. I go back and forth between thinking he is good and he is evil. I have thought he may be evil for the sneering and jeering and possibly hate that he always shows to Harry. But aside from Snape just appearing to be a bitter person, in a way, he almost seems like a "lovable villain" to me. So, even though I suspect that he is evil, deep down I have always thought he has to be good, because in so many ways, it is so easy to love him, even when he makes snide remarks to Harry. Voldemort is not lovable in any way, so the fact that I think JKR makes Snape lovable shows that Snape might in fact be good.

Another point along these lines is when an interviewer commented to JKR that Snape has "certain redeeming qualities" (maybe not an exact quote, but I think that's right), and JKR responded that she was shocked that the interviewer said that, and she could not comment further. I have never known what to think of that. (Someone might have a link to that interview...)

But, when I first read the chapter where Snape killed Dumbledore, I was absolutely shocked. At that point I absolutely thought Snape was evil. And I had really wanted to believe that Snape was good.

But there is also overwhelming evidence that Snape is good, even right after he killed Dumbledore. I'm sure this has been quoted before, but when Harry is coming after Snape after he's killed Dumbledore (Harry tries to yell "Cruc--"), Snape tells Harry "No Unforgiveable Curses from you, Potter!" It almost seems to me here like Snape is protecting Harry from doing something horrible. Even though Snape sneers immediately to Harry after that: "You haven't got the nerve or the ability --" I still feel like Snape was protecting Harry from doing it. And then when Harry next tries to stupefy Snape, Snape then says "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" Here, it sounds like Snape is instructing/teaching Harry. It is almost as if Snape is trying to tell Harry what he needs to learn to do better before he can face Voldemort. Why would he tell Harry that he needs to learn to keep his mind closed otherwise? Why would he care, if he was evil? The only thing I can think of is that Snape is telling Harry to keep his mind closed to protect Voldemort. But I don't think that's it.

Another scene that keeps coming to mind is when Snape tried to protect Harry from Lupin when he had turned into a werewolf in POA. I do not think that Snape was trying to save Harry for Voldemort all these times he protected him- I have always thought Snape really does care for Harry (deep, deep down) and so he protects him.

It is just so hard to figure out which he is - good or evil.

sure snape is good... he is good at potion making, being snide, reading people's minds, placing people in akward situations, and giving detentions... the list goes on... but my bets are not on him becoming "good" in the sense that he is not muttering spells to cause a twistedly evil middle-aged man take over the world. i think he is rather suited for the "bad" side... i mean, what sanely "good" man creates a spell that causes blood to spout out of you like the buckingham fountain? all i can say is that voldemort would be losing one seriously handy bad guy if snape left for the good guys.

sure snape is good... he is good at potion making, being snide, reading people's minds, placing people in akward situations, and giving detentions... the list goes on... but my bets are not on him becoming "good" in the sense that he is not muttering spells to cause a twistedly evil middle-aged man take over the world. i think he is rather suited for the "bad" side... i mean, what sanely "good" man creates a spell that causes blood to spout out of you like the buckingham fountain? all i can say is that voldemort would be losing one seriously handy bad guy if snape left for the good guys.

This is great! Ya - he is definitely good at being horrible. And that curse was truly evil.

With regards to my previous post, while Snape may have been protecting Harry, he could have also just been mocking him. Or I suppose, maybe both.

This is great! Ya - he is definitely good at being horrible. And that curse was truly evil.

With regards to my previous post, while Snape may have been protecting Harry, he could have also just been mocking him. Or I suppose, maybe both.

About Sectumsempra... if Snape invented it, then it is hardly widespread knowledge among the 'good wizards' of the world, right? Which means Snape must have also invented the countercurse, the song-like incantation he uses when he heals Draco. Just saying...

He could very easily have invented that countercurse--but the lyrical thing--it just doesn't seem like his style. I mean, can you REALLY imagine Snape singing? Maybe he got the idea from the merpeople, or maybe it was invented by someone with a more musical or lyrical bent--like, say, maybe...Lily:D. With the book info, you go back and forth. With JK's comments--the Harry-Snape feud being just as personal and heated as the Harry-Voldemort feud, and Snape being "more unforgivable" than Voldemort because Voldemort has never known love, while Snape HAS, it appears she's setting him up as a Judas. But again, there are pieces that absolutely don't fit.

Why contact the Order at all when Dolly goes tromping into the forest, there are no witnesses to contradict his assertion that he had no idea whatsoever what Harry thought or what he might have been trying to do.

Why shake when asked for that last part of the Unbreakable Vow--like he didn't want to be really roped into killing Dumbledore? Why go into such carefully orchestrated but private rants about how tough it is to be a spy? Why demand relief? That seems a bit over-the-top, unnecessary to maintain the cover. And last--Why not kill Flitwick and Hermione. Hermione might have been protected by Felix Felicis, but Flitwick wasn't. Also, if Dumbledore was betrayed, wouldn't his realization of that disturb his final slumber. Wouldn't he look shocked like Sirius did as he died, or maybe unbearably sad--heartbroken? Instead Dumbledore is so peaceful that he might have been sleeping if it weren't for the odd angle at which his body landed. There are still things to reconcile.

About Sectumsempra... if Snape invented it, then it is hardly widespread knowledge among the 'good wizards' of the world, right? Which means Snape must have also invented the countercurse, the song-like incantation he uses when he heals Draco. Just saying...

Really good point. Another thought I had with respect to the countercurse is that maybe Snape enjoys the control he has over someone by inflicting pain, and then being able to heal them. The singing was quite strange though. I can't quite imagine it.

Also, if Dumbledore was betrayed, wouldn't his realization of that disturb his final slumber. Wouldn't he look shocked like Sirius did as he died, or maybe unbearably sad--heartbroken? Instead Dumbledore is so peaceful that he might have been sleeping if it weren't for the odd angle at which his body landed. There are still things to reconcile.

This is interesting. The thought that comes to mind is that maybe he didn't have time to look shocked before Snape got him. (???) Or maybe he was looking forward to death as his next great adventure. Or, of course, maybe he was in on it. I have always thought that Dumbledore planned his death to galvanize Harry to pursue Voldemort. Lots of people shot that down, saying that his parents and Sirius were enough to give him the drive to kill Voldemort. But, I think as Harry was finally finding happiness with Ginny, maybe Dumbledore was afraid he would just give it up and try to live a peaceful life with her. Harry has gotten sick of fighting and being "the chosen one" from time to time.

Anyways, regardless of whether or not Dumbledore was shocked that Snape killed him, I sure was!!

Yes, all three points have been raised in favor of Snape. :)

The standard rebuttals are:

1) we don't know how the Foe Glass works, maybe Snape showed upbecause at the time he was helping Dumbledore, in order to keep his cover, and this made him a threat to Jr. even though they were on the same side.
2) Maybe Snape wasn't lying when he said the Dark Lord had ordered Harry to be left.
3) Poetic license. Or, "there was nothing unusual about the Avada Kedavra".

Actually, I don't recall anyone suggesting Fawkes swooped in. We've seen him do it before (OotP), and he was not invisible. Why would this be different?

Thanks. On Fawkes, he moves so fast at times, I just hope DD is not dead then left the door open for others to possibly discuss...

Anyway, I was wondering if DD had to keep Malfoy from killing and thus having no way out as a death eater? Harry's love allows forgiveness (thus making room for Snape, Malfoy, etc to be forgiven and their knowledge absorbed) and he uses a variety of people/creatures to hunt down and destroy horcruxes and ultimately Voldy. Whether staged or not, his love by example may inspire Harry and if he can turn some against Voldy - Snape may have, Sirius' brother turned away, will Cissy (Narcissa), etc. and these may help Harry, seeing a not bright future unless Voldemort is gone. ???

Also, did Snape have an unbreakable vow with DD too?

Does Harry know how DD conquered - because he probably didn't kill him - the dark wizard fifty years ago? Grinndowald??? There are things worse than death said DD....

Will Wormtail get some guts and kill the Snake for Harry? Or something...

Just a lot to speculate on. Again, thanks for the reply.

In light of Rowling's appearance on Richard and Judy and what she said, I think we can finally settle this once and for all: Snape is good, but still a jerk due to his natural personality.

Rowling said that she has added two more deaths to the final book that she hadn't planned, and also had given a "reprieve" to someone.

Reprieve: A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the penalty associated with it. It is granted by a sovereign power, such as a monarch. Clemency is an associated term which is the lessening of the penalty of the crime without forgiving the crime itself. The act of clemency is a reprieve. Today, pardons and reprieves are granted in many countries when individuals may have been wrongly convicted of a crime or have demonstrated that they have fulfilled their debt to society.

Who has demonstrated the most relevance to this definition? Snape and Wormtail. Who is more likely to "deserve" mercy? Snape. I think we can be sure that the person who "most deserved death" at the end of HBP for "something he did" will "receive mercy from Harry" because "said person is innocent of what he has been accused of" and "said person's penalty of death" will be tossed. :D

If Snape actually survives, maybe he can go into Potions textbook writing since he seems to know more than anybody!

In light of Rowling's appearance on Richard and Judy and what she said, I think we can finally settle this once and for all: Snape is good, but still a jerk due to his natural personality.

While I would dearly love to see Snape survive Book 7 (and do see the interview as a hopeful sign, since I fully expect he was on her list of chracters to kill in Book 7), I don't think the interview really gives us any new insights into the question of his loyalties. All she is saying, as I understand it, is that she has axed two people she had no plans to kill off originally, and changed her mind about killing off someone else she had planned to kill (regardless of whether they 'deserve' it within the fictional universe.)

Working for himself.

- did not reveal the full prophecy to Voldemort
- gives info to both sides
- biggest red flag of all for me: does not capture and take Harry in HBP when he runs
- he had no choice on the tower: he has to keep his cover and keep the vow. Next to Death eaters and a werewolf, at that.
- he legillimented with Dumbledore at the tower; his task now is to protect Draco - note how they run and dissaparate separately from the other Death eaters
- Ring and the horcrux potion were already killing Dumbledore-Avada was just the mercy strike

Working for himself.

- did not reveal the full prophecy to Voldemort
- gives info to both sides
- biggest red flag of all for me: does not capture and take Harry in HBP when he runs
- he had no choice on the tower: he has to keep his cover and keep the vow. Next to Death eaters and a werewolf, at that.
- he legillimented with Dumbledore at the tower; his task now is to protect Draco - note how they run and dissaparate separately from the other Death eaters
- Ring and the horcrux potion were already killing Dumbledore-Avada was just the mercy strike

All of these are reasons to suppose Snape is working for the 'good side', as well.

(Except the second-he would do THAT no matter what side he is on, it is what a double agent does. If he's loyal to one side or the other, he would limit it to information which is not very damaging to his side.)

I'm thinking Snape is just waiting whichever side will win and join it - that is what I meant. He is loyal to himself, before anyone else.

i say that snape is essentailly a good person....
a liitle cruel , but good..... and i believe that when he killed dumbledore he was following orders, dumbledores orders

I agree with the theory he is/or more probably was a double agent role, but his actions in not capturing or killing Harry and not revealing the full prophecy to Voldemort show he is on the side of Dumbledore. Seems like Dumbledore is the only guy he shows loyalty to, because of the trust Dumbledore has shown him.

While I would dearly love to see Snape survive Book 7 (and do see the interview as a hopeful sign, since I fully expect he was on her list of chracters to kill in Book 7), I don't think the interview really gives us any new insights into the question of his loyalties. All she is saying, as I understand it, is that she has axed two people she had no plans to kill off originally, and changed her mind about killing off someone else she had planned to kill (regardless of whether they 'deserve' it within the fictional universe.)

Well the interview was helpful in that the choice word of "reprieve" is interesting. Its definition is allaying punishment to someone who either has paid their debt or did not deserve the punishment in the first place. I think the word implies Snape. Otherwise she could have said "I changed my mind about someone." Reprieve sounds too "forgiving" of someone, too merciful of her. I'll bet it's Snape. But then again, it isn't exactly for sure. We don't know. But I am hopeful. I just hope he gets that Order of Merlin, First Class.

Also, after Voldemort is vaporised at the attack on Potter house, Snape doesn't run and seek any of the Death Eaters but stays put at Hogwarts.
I mean, his mission to spy on Dumbledore is effectively over as everyone thinks Voldemort is gone for good, so why is he still there if he's all bad? He also doesn't try to contact anyone from the dark side throughout the years.

He also doesn't Apparate to Voldemort asap on the graveyard but "2 hours later". Hmmm.

Well, I wouldn´t say Snape is "good" in the more common sense of the word.
He is a thoroughly unkind person. He doesn´t seem to have any friends, he bullies students which are not in Slytherin, he mistreats Harry all the time, basically he doen´t act like a teacher is supposed to. You can explain this with his neglected upbringing, but still he is not a very nice person.

As to the question on which side he is, I am just not sure, although I tend to believe that Snape is on the good side. I was really shocked when he killed Dumbledore. But still, Dumbledore trusted him and, although he has admitted that he was wrong from time to time, I tend to believe that Dumbledore has had good and strong reasons to trust Snape.

I still try to figure out for myself why Snape had to kill Dumbledore. The best explanation I can come up with is, that he was bound by the Unbreakable Vow (and I tend to believe that Dumbledore knew about that).

Now that he has most probably joined Voldemort and his cronies he can be very useful for the Order as a spy.

I think Snape is a triple agent, he might still be working for the Order Of The Phoenix.

I was rereading OOTP and I came across this really interesting quote that I hadn't picked up on before HBP. I think it supports Snape as a double agent. (sorry if this has already been mentioned)
page 591 American hardback OOTP while Harry and Snape are practicing Occlumency:
" 'That is just as well, Potter." said Snape coldly, 'because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.'
'No--that is your job, isn't it?' Harry shot at him.
He has not meant to say it; it has burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he has gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
'Yes Potter,' he said, his eyes glinting. "that is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again....' "

...

I still try to figure out for myself why Snape had to kill Dumbledore. The best explanation I can come up with is, that he was bound by the Unbreakable Vow (and I tend to believe that Dumbledore knew about that).

...

I was convinced that Snape could be good and could have killed Dd on Dd's request - however it is the unbreakable vow that messes all of it up. You see - I don't think Snape told Dumbledore about the vow.
"Why didn't you stop me, then? Malfoy demanded.
I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders - "
"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother - "
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco but - "

I think that he is still good but calues his own life more then anyone else's. That is why he'd be willing to kill dumbledore... or did he not really do it? lets not get into that...

"Why didn't you stop me, then?" Malfoy demanded.
"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders -"
He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother - "
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco but - "
[/fieldset]

Thanks, I needed this quote! This supports my theory about Dumbledore impersonating Snape in Spinner's End. Certainly it looks like Dumbledore doesn't know a thing in that quote, but Harry had already several times mentioned to Dumbledore that Snape had taken a vow for Draco's mother, so for Dumbledore to blindly ignore Harry's warning is off-suited for his character.

But, if you think of it in a different light, perhaps, since Dumbledore tries to tempt Draco to trust the Order in this sequence of events, he is about to tell Draco the truth of what happened. And if the truth is what I think it is, then he was trying to tell Draco that even though Narcissa thought she was binding Snape to the Vow, she had been speaking to Dumbledore under the influence of Polyjuice Potion (or any other kind of unknown Transfiguration).

So Dumbledore tells Draco that Snape was acting under his (Dumbledore's) orders. Draco says it was his mother's orders instead, according to Snape. But Dumbledore claims, "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --" and is unable to finish. I don't have my book to check this at all, but I believe he is cut off because those Death Eaters arrive on the tower. I'm not positive, so am I right about that? :shrug:

So, it would be logical that Dumbledore was about to tell Draco the truth of the Vow, and for the sake of mystery, suspense, and a seventh HP book, we don't learn the truth. Could the truth be that Snape was in fact acting under Dumbledore's orders with regards to helping and protecting Draco, and Dumbledore was acting under the orders of the Vow? Hmmm. . . . :eyebrows:

I agree with the theory he is/or more probably was a double agent role, but his actions in not capturing or killing Harry and not revealing the full prophecy to Voldemort show he is on the side of Dumbledore. Seems like Dumbledore is the only guy he shows loyalty to, because of the trust Dumbledore has shown him.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but Snape didn't tell the whole prophecy because he didn't knowit. Dumbledore said that the eavesdropper was detected halfway through the prophecy. Then when he let's Harry hear the prophecy he says that only three people know the whole thing (him, Harry, and Trelawny), and later Harry tells Ron and Hermoine.
Even despite that i tend to think he's good.

I was convinced that Snape could be good and could have killed Dumbledore on Dd's request - however it is the unbreakable vow that messes all of it up. You see - I don't think Snape told Dumbledore about the vow.
"Why didn't you stop me, then? Malfoy demanded.
I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders - "
"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother - "
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco but - "


Like every other dratted clue about Snape, it is not conclusive; Dumbledore could have been planning to say that Snape was acting under his orders when Narcissa came to him. Or, while the outcome remained uncertain, he moght have been protecting Snape's cover by pretending not to know.

Further,this clue has a counterpart which suggests the opposite. In "A Sluggish Memory" Harry tells Dumbledore all about what he heard Draco and Snape say to each other the night of Slughorn's Christmas party. We can be sure he mentioned the Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore, since he mentioned it to Ron earler, and Ron explained to him how important this is.

So, what is Dumbledore's response to all this?


"Yes, Harry, blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understood everything you told me," said Dumbledore, a little sharply. "I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did. Again, I am glad that you have confided in me, but let me reassure you that you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet."


Which suggests Dumbledore knows something more that Harry about the situation. Certainly, if Snape HAD told Dumbledore about the Vow, that would be something more than Harry knows.

Zgirnius: You have been the one person who seems to possibly agree that maybe Dumbledore was impersonating Snape in Spinner's End. And while it does seem highly suspicious still, I think I have found a better explanation. :clap: And simpler! :tu:

We know that Snape seemed surprised or shaken when Narcissa surprised him with the third Vow requirement.

"And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"

There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.

"I will," said Snape.

But, what if he accepted with every intention of dying for Dumbledore and was thoroughly convinced that that's what he would do . . . until he told Dumbledore about it all.

I can just picture another sympathetic Snape running to Dumbledore to tell him the news that Narcissa brought and that in order to gain more trust, he got tricked into the Vow. But no matter, he promises he will not let anything happen to Dumbledore.

But suppose Dumbledore here decides on a plan that would hopefully further Snape in the inner circle of Death Eaters. Exactly what the plan entails we do not know. But we can guess that his plan involved Snape promising to do something for him, and that Hagrid overheard Snape having second thoughts.

The other part to that bit Hagrid overheard was Dumbledore argued with Snape that Snape should stop making investigations into his own House. Somehow Snape looking into Slytherin regarding the cursed necklace annoyed Dumbledore, and talking about what Snape had promised to do reminded him of Snape's investigations. Clearly this must be Draco. But what was Snape doing that upset Dumbledore. There was that stuff Snape said to Draco at Slughorn's Christmas party about not wanting to take Draco to see Dumbledore -- Draco felt he was in trouble with Snape more than anything else and felt Snape wanted him to be kicked out of school. But he tells Draco he has no intention of taking him to Dumbledore.

I wonder how that fit in too.

Zgirnius: You have been the one person who seems to possibly agree that maybe Dumbledore was impersonating Snape in Spinner's End. And while it does seem highly suspicious still, I think I have found a better explanation. :clap: And simpler! :tu:
Oh, I do not believe that theory. I assert my disbelief on that thread once every 5-10 posts or so...I didn't get around to it yet in v3. I just think that the people who claim it is totally impossible are wrong. Until we have Book 7, very little is totally impossible. Heck, Snape could even be evil! (Though I certainly don't think so :D).

But, what if he accepted with every intention of dying for Dumbledore and was thoroughly convinced that that's what he would do . . . until he told Dumbledore about it all.
Yes, this is what I believe too. I do think Snape may have seen a 'loophole' in the Vow, so he wasn't 100% sure he was sticking his neck in a noose, but he knew he was taking a chance of having to die for failure to complete the task.

But suppose Dumbledore here decides on a plan that would hopefully further Snape in the inner circle of Death Eaters. Exactly what the plan entails we do not know. But we can guess that his plan involved Snape promising to do something for him, and that Hagrid overheard Snape having second thoughts.
I believe there was ALREADY a plan in the works to move Snape over to Voldemort's side before Spinner's End happened, so Snape could be a more effective spy for the Order. The moment Dumbledore decided he wanted to hire Slughorn and move Snape over to DADA, he had to know Snape would likely be leaving by the end of the year, because of the curse.

The other part to that bit Hagrid overheard was Dumbledore argued with Snape that Snape should stop making investigations into his own House.
Actually, all Hagrid said was that Dumbledore talked about making investigations in Snape's house. He could also have been in favor of Snape doing more of this...

If you are interested in my take on what the argument in the Forest might have been about, *Shameless self-promotion alert* the first chapter of fic I have linked in my signature is actually my version of that conversation.

There was that stuff Snape said to Draco at Slughorn's Christmas party about not wanting to take Draco to see Dumbledore -- Draco felt he was in trouble with Snape more than anything else and felt Snape wanted him to be kicked out of school. But he tells Draco he has no intention of taking him to Dumbledore.
I think Snape was trying to talk Draco into telling him what his plan to kill Dumbledore was. Obviously, if he knew the details, it would be easier to make sure the plan failed.

Also, Snape needed to convince Draco to stop the random, dangerous tries like the necklace that were actually just putting other students in danger.

Oh, I do not believe that theory. I assert my disbelief on that thread once every 5-10 posts or so...I didn't get around to it yet in v3. I just think that the people who claim it is totally impossible are wrong. Until we have Book 7, very little is totally impossible. Heck, Snape could even be evil! (Though I certainly don't think so :D).


Yes, this is what I believe too. I do think Snape may have seen a 'loophole' in the Vow, so he wasn't 100% sure he was sticking his neck in a noose, but he knew he was taking a chance of having to die for failure to complete the task.


I believe there was ALREADY a plan in the works to move Snape over to Voldemort's side before Spinner's End happened, so Snape could be a more effective spy for the Order. The moment Dumbledore decided he wanted to hire Slughorn and move Snape over to DADA, he had to know Snape would likely be leaving by the end of the year, because of the curse.


Actually, all Hagrid said was that Dumbledore talked about making investigations in Snape's house. He could also have been in favor of Snape doing more of this...

If you are interested in my take on what the argument in the Forest might have been about, *Shameless self-promotion alert* the first chapter of fic I have linked in my signature is actually my version of that conversation.


I think Snape was trying to talk Draco into telling him what his plan to kill Dumbledore was. Obviously, if he knew the details, it would be easier to make sure the plan failed.

Also, Snape needed to convince Draco to stop the random, dangerous tries like the necklace that were actually just putting other students in danger.

A lot of good points: I was trying to work out ways for something similar to occur... I'll go read your fanfiction. Thanks.

If Snape is on LV's side, why no attempt to have Harry expelled after Sectumseptra? Worst thing Harry has done by far and the spell was cast at another student.

No he lied to Bella. We might assume Snape was sincere about wanting Harry expelled in the past, but when he has his best chance he refuses. Like Voldemort in the Graveyard, snape knows Harry is best protected by being at Hogwarts.

By the way, following sectumseptra would have been a great time to disarm Harry, kill him with Draco's wand and obliviate Draco. This was neither Dumbledore or Voldemort could be mad at Snape for the crime. Snape is good! now if I can just figure out if Dumbledore is alive or not.

That was interesting too, Goldenhair. I guess he didn't want others to know where Harry got that spell from.
Also Moaning Myrtle was a witness with Sectumsempra and would likely tell what happened.

Like every other dratted clue about Snape, it is not conclusive; Dumbledore could have been planning to say that Snape was acting under his orders when Narcissa came to him. Or, while the outcome remained uncertain, he moght have been protecting Snape's cover by pretending not to know.
Yes, we don´t know really. Although my take on this event is that Dumbledore was desperately trying to save Draco, to bring him back on the good side. He is a sixteen year old kid after all and has not done real harm up until then. (Except being a racist and an arrogant bully which can be ascribed to the influence of his parents, esp. Lucius). So, I think Dumbledore wanted to reveal as much as possible to Draco in order to reassure him that it would be safe for him to leave Voldemort.

Further,this clue has a counterpart which suggests the opposite. In "A Sluggish Memory" Harry tells Dumbledore all about what he heard Draco and Snape say to each other the night of Slughorn's Christmas party. We can be sure he mentioned the Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore, since he mentioned it to Ron earler, and Ron explained to him how important this is.

So, what is Dumbledore's response to all this?

"Yes, Harry, blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understood everything you told me," said Dumbledore, a little sharply. "I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did. Again, I am glad that you have confided in me, but let me reassure you that you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet."

Which suggests Dumbledore knows something more that Harry about the situation. Certainly, if Snape HAD told Dumbledore about the Vow, that would be something more than Harry knows.
I think Dumbledore knows everything. He knows about the vow as well. It is emphazised throughout the series that Dumbledore trusts Snape and there must be a valid reason which will be revealed in HP7. I have the feeling there is a connection between Snape and Dumbledore we don´t know right now. This of course is not at all backed up by the text. It´s pure speculation.

I believe there was ALREADY a plan in the works to move Snape over to Voldemort's side before Spinner's End happened, so Snape could be a more effective spy for the Order. The moment Dumbledore decided he wanted to hire Slughorn and move Snape over to DADA, he had to know Snape would likely be leaving by the end of the year, because of the curse.
I agree that there must have been a plan to get Snape closer to Voldemort. But I doubt allowing Snape to - finally - teach DADA was part of that. That would have been a little bit too risky, IMO. Dumbledore knew about the curse but he didn´t know how it "worked". This could have meant Snape dying (like Quirrel) or ending up in St. Mungo´s (like Lockhart).

I think Snape was trying to talk Draco into telling him what his plan to kill Dumbledore was. Obviously, if he knew the details, it would be easier to make sure the plan failed.

Also, Snape needed to convince Draco to stop the random, dangerous tries like the necklace that were actually just putting other students in danger.
I absolutely agree with this.

BTW: I sort of doubt, Dumbledore impersonated Snape in Spinner´s End :D