Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v3 [Archive] - Page 7

mwbashful18

July 26th, 2006, 6:08 pm

Snape is not black and white and to think that just because he killed Dumbledore makes him 100% evil is not looking at the big picture. Rowling HAD to give Snape Dumbledore because he's the one who would cause the biggest outcry of opposition. If it was like, Flitwick or someone, there would be a question of whether he was a spy or something because Flitwick isn't in the Order. But, Dumbledore, Dumbledore is the BIG CHEESE.

BUT!!! But . . . there is so much evidence to the contrary that Snape was actually under orders and following a plan that perhaps Dumbledore plotted with his help.

Again, let me point out that Dumbledore says earlier in HBP that the Avada Kedavra Curse never causes damage to the person except for the obvious effect of death. Harry is the only person to have received "damage" from an Avada Kedavra, in the form of his scar. Also, the person is not supposed to be lifted into the air as portrayed in the films nor is he supposed to close his/her eyes. We do know too that if a person doesn't cast it properly it will just cause a slight hurt like a nosebleed.

But, when Snape casts the Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore, four things can be observed about this act:

1)Dumbledore, who had been slumped down the ramparts of the tower and was practically sitting, was lifted into the air, not blasted, and rather floated for a moment before tumbling down to the ground.
2)When found, Dumbledore's mouth was bleeding.
3)Dumbledore's eyes were closed.
4)You have to truly mean and want to kill someone to make the Avada Kedavra work.

A point to remember is this:

*Rowling always present info at the beginning of the book that shadows the ending.
1)SS/PS - meeting Quirrel at the Leaky Cauldron, the turban, and then the ending was Quirrel the villain
2)CoS - Moaning Myrtle's bathroom turned out to be the entrance to the CoS
3)PoA - Snape's werewolf essay plus all the fuss over Crookshanks and Scabbers showed the surprises with them, plus Sirius and all of his stuff
4)GoF - Moody having an intruder over the summer that messed up his garbage cans or something turned out to be Crouch, Jr. assuming his identity
5)OotP - the dreams plus the dementors having to do with Umbridge
6)HBP - the Advanced-Potion Making book and all the emphasis placed on non-verbal spells

Point is, since there is always some sort of emphasis placed on stuff that affects the ending in a way, what if all the emphasis placed on non-verbal spells as well as the fact that Snape can do them exceptionally well, coupled with the "effects" of the Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore, suggests that Snape maybe performed the Avada Kedavra verbally causing nothing but his mouth to bleed as Snape didn't mean it, and then was able to non-verbally lift Dumbledore into the air (Hermione said you can do a non-verbal spell in a split-second) and allow him to drop.

Here's the thing - sounds gruesome, doesn't it? Dropping him off the tower instead of a simple AK! But, I have another question, sort of similar to Star Wars in a way. How did Merope die? She was young, she was a witch, what happened? And the way Dumbledore talked, it sounded like suicide. Mrs. Cole at the orphanage said it took an hour after Tom Riddle's birth for her to die. What I'm wondering is whether there is a way for a witch or wizard to sort of magic their own death or allow it, perhaps similar to how Ben Kenobi in the original Star Wars allows himself to die but disappear as he did? Can Dumbledore, who was dying from the potion, will his death to come or something?

This is stretching, I know, but it just seems like there was so much more going on that night on the tower than what was shown. You had the chance that Dumbledore was using Legillimency to "speak" to Snape and then there's the possibility of other magic at work, and then the stuff about not knowing exactly how Dumbledore landed and whether he slowed himself down and then died from the potion, or where Fawkes was in all of this. There is a lot of mystery about what was REALLY happening and I think that the final book will start at Hogwarts because there seems like too many loose ends still left at the school that it would be weird to send Harry home first and then to return later.

I dunno . . .

SinLooWho

July 28th, 2006, 5:23 am

The theory about the AK is very thought provoking. Not sure about the thing about Dumbledore willing his death. I thought maybe you were going for a faked death theory here.

zgirnius, I see what you are saying about Narcissa, but I don't know...I attributed much of that to desperation. She was afterall pleading for the protection and life of her son. Lucius had already been taken to Azkaban, right? I imagine she may have been a bit pressured, even feeling a little like her life was falling apart around her. Though I will admit that the Black family seems to have been some, shall we say, not so nice people:lol:

snapes_witch

July 28th, 2006, 6:37 am

I agree...and, anyway, even if he's good, or he wants to return to the good side, who could trust him now?? Harry would like to kill him...how could Snape say to him "Yes, I'm good, I'm your friend!"?

Well, it wouldn't be very smart for Snape to do that, would it? Considering the H-BP's potions book as foreshadowing perhaps there will be a trustworthy way for Snape to help Harry without him knowing it's Snape.

Whichever way it goes in #7 there will be people doing high fives :clap: and others shredding the book! :grumble:

arithmancer

July 28th, 2006, 6:48 am

zgirnius, I see what you are saying about Narcissa, but I don't know...I attributed much of that to desperation. She was afterall pleading for the protection and life of her son. Lucius had already been taken to Azkaban, right? I imagine she may have been a bit pressured, even feeling a little like her life was falling apart around her. Though I will admit that the Black family seems to have been some, shall we say, not so nice people:lol:
Oh, I agree she was desperate. In fact, I think if she had been less desperate, she might not have tried it. :D And the very real desperation behind the dramatic portrayal of a desperate damsel in distress probably only made her more convincing...

I don't insist on the idea...especially not that she planned it before she even showed up. But I really think there is more to Narcissa than a weepy snob.

Browneyes85

July 28th, 2006, 9:46 am

Browneyes85, I completely agree with your theory. I've thought the same for a long time but people don't listen to me :). The only thing is about Snape's motives...I don't think he was really talking about being a Half Blood as in muggle / wizard. He has half of his mother and half of his father, and since his mother's maiden name was Prince, that would make him a half blood Prince.

what would you say his motives were to go against voldie, i don't think the snape loved lilly theory comes into it until after he gave him the split prophecy and realised that voldie was going after the potters and in that case lilly.

snape is a slytherin so if we use the stereotypical idea of a slytherin, they are always thinking of the bennifit to him/her self. so what bennifit would SS get from taking on LV himself. making LV aware of the prophecy and then given him only the first part of it by choice. i've been thinking on this for a while now, and i'v reached a dead end.

arithmancer

July 28th, 2006, 1:34 pm

snape is a slytherin so if we use the stereotypical idea of a slytherin, they are always thinking of the bennifit to him/her self. so what bennifit would SS get from taking on LV himself. making LV aware of the prophecy and then given him only the first part of it by choice. i've been thinking on this for a while now, and i'v reached a dead end.
If you think the 'giving Voldie half the prophecy' idea was Snape's own...ambition is the reason usually suggested.

Among people who believe that Snape deliberately gave Voldemort half the prophecy, another popular theory is that Snape was already working for Dumbledore, and they decided on this together. Snape may have been recruited as early as his late Hogwarts years by Dumbledore, in this version. His reason for agreeing to be Dumbledore's spy would probably be the lack of a good father-figure in his life, so he would be grateful in Dumbledore for taking an interest in him.

Personally, I think he heard only half the prophecy and told it to Voldemort because he was a Death Eater at the time...enter the Snape Loved Lily theory to explain why he had a change of heart...;)

Browneyes85

July 28th, 2006, 4:56 pm

If you think the 'giving Voldie half the prophecy' idea was Snape's own...ambition is the reason usually suggested.

Among people who believe that Snape deliberately gave Voldemort half the prophecy, another popular theory is that Snape was already working for Dumbledore, and they decided on this together. Snape may have been recruited as early as his late Hogwarts years by Dumbledore, in this version. His reason for agreeing to be Dumbledore's spy would probably be the lack of a good father-figure in his life, so he would be grateful in Dumbledore for taking an interest in him.

Personally, I think he heard only half the prophecy and told it to Voldemort because he was a Death Eater at the time...enter the Snape Loved Lily theory to explain why he had a change of heart...;)

see i think he heard the full prophecy - this is my theory posted on here a few pages back:

i'm just going to post this here cause i think this is the most relevant site to post, but this is my theory to why Dumbldore trusted snape. and as soon as we work that olut i think we will know whether he is good or not.

Quote:
‘The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...’
(http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/tr...tml#prophecies )

Ok this is the prophecy, why did Dumbledore trust Snape. This is my theory please bare with me.
I have split up the prophecy into 3 sections you will see why in the minute:

Quote:
‘The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies…’

Lord V would need to know this part. And this is the part Dumbledore say’s he heard.

Quote:
‘And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...’

I think I’d be right in saying that Voldie never knew this part when he attacked the Potters.

Quote:
‘The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...’

Ok, so now we know that Snape was the one who over heard the prophecy and told Lord V. Dumbledore say’s that he only heard half of the prophecy. The first half. But this doesn’t run in cannon to what Trelawney says. She says that Snape was there at the end of the interview, which means the end of the Prophecy. So he could have heard:

Quote:
‘The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...’

But that doesn’t really cut down the candidates. So he would have needed to add ‘whose parents had thrice defied him’ for Voldie to choose between Neville and Harry.

My theory is Snape heard the whole Prophecy, and chose to tell the dark lord the first half, making the dark lord choose his destroyer. He then found out who Lord V would target (the Potters) and realized he needed help, his plan had back fired. He went to the only person he knew that could help, Dumbledore. Snape and Dumbledore made up a plan, he would spy for Dumbledore and he would give Lord V the idea of him working as a spy on Dumbledore for him. Dumbledore knew he could trust Snape because Snape had already betrayed Lord V by giving him the fragmented prophecy by choice, then telling Dumbledore the danger to the Potters.

Dumbledore as told Harry that he and himself were the only ones who knew the whole Prophecy, and thou we have been told to believe everything he said, he also told us that the person to tell the dark lord the prophecy was thrown out a window and that’s the reason Dumbledore only got half of it, which we know didn’t happen, because Snape is still alive.

But if Snape as turned back to the dark side, can we assume that he as given Lord V the full Prophecy.

Quote:
‘Potter belongs to the dark lord…’

This statement could suggest that the dark lord knows.

So was/is Snape good we don’t know, I’m inclined to say yes for the reason above. Do I trust Snape, again I’m not sure, but I still can’t get past the fact that Dumbledore trusted him, so again I want to say yes. But if my theory is true to the reason why Dumbledore trusted him, what made him decide to take on the dark lord to begin with…

…what was his motive for the reason behind targeting Lord V, he was a Half blood, Lord V was targeting Half Bloods. It seemed he was proud about being a half blood if his self given nickname is anything to go by. I’m not sure, but it could be possible. You can say that Snape loved a Muggle born (Lilly), Voldemort and the DE were targeting them, there could be loads of reasons, but then I see him with his wand pointed at Dumbledore and him saying the killing curse and I still can’t believe it…

This is rushed so please let me know what you think and if there are any misinterpretations of scenes in the book. I haven’t read them for about 4 months and haven’t got the books with me to give you any more quotes other then the prophecy.

Further more if anyone has the quote for when Trelawney tells Harry that Snape over heard the prophecy please post it…

mwbashful18

July 28th, 2006, 6:24 pm

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

If Voldemort only heard the first half, then we can guess based on how Voldemort acted that he only learned from Snape this:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..."

This gives Voldemort the who and the what - someone being born soon who may one day be his downfall. But Voldemort doesn't seem aware of this:

"and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal . . . and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."

However, he seems to fear Harry a bit and seems to believe that Harry is extra special and has better powers than just what has been deemed mediocre. So perhaps he knows this bit:

"but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not"

And, as we know Snape was there through the whole prophecy based on Trelawney saying he was there when she came out of her stupor, then we can guess either of three things:

*He was caught by Aberforth, we know that, and that Aberforth came up behind him and started talking to him and chastising him for being at the door and such may have caused too much noise for him to hear the rest.

*Or, he heard it all and went back to Voldemort with a foggy head and could only remember bits and pieces. And instead of seeming incompetent he decided to pass it off as the full prophecy.

*Or, he purposefully told Voldemort only half for whatever his reasons.

But nevertheless, I find it funny that Dumbledore did not go after Snape nor attempt to stop him so he could speak to him, knowing the kind of prophecy that he just witnessed was about Voldemort as well as a baby the prophecy says is going to be more powerful than Voldemort.

Which makes me wonder as he didn't go after Snape . . . did Dumbledore expect the child to be just like Voldemort? Did he expect him to be evil too as the prophecy is vague as to who's side the kid will be on? The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal . . . "equal" makes it seem that the casual listener would think double trouble and that they'll have a little war between each other over who's more powerful.

Could it be that Dumbledore was going to allow this "new threat" to die, and that's why he didn't stop Snape, because Snape was thrown out of the Hog's Head and it doesn't seem like Dumbledore spoke to him at all? Then he learned that the Potters and Longbottoms were due in July and realized he couldn't let a little child die, and so when Snape came along worried about Lily, Dumbledore made a point to make sure his mistake of letting Voldemort know of the child was cleaned up by putting the Potters into hiding, as Snape told him Voldemort would go for their kid.

Meaning, Voldemort went after Harry and Voldemort was reduced to vapor, at which time it took a whole 24 hours for someone to go retrieve the child (Hagrid) and bring him to Privet Drive where Harry, as Dumbledore states, will have a different childhood away from the glory of the wizarding world. Could that be the sign there - that he feared Harry would turn into a Tom Riddle if he grew up in the wizarding world knowing one day he would have powers and being fed on fame? Dumbledore talked a lot about wondering how Harry would turn out and was glad to see that Harry was normal. And also why Dumbledore makes a point of reminding Harry of manners when addressing Professor Snape, because Tom Riddle seemed to require reminding of calling Dumbledore "sir" or "Professor" too. Ironic that Riddle had Dumbledore being cross and keeping watch over him, just like Harry has Snape watching him a lot.

So could that be why Dumbledore and Snape are rather close - because they both know that they, together, caused the turn of events, Snape because he wasn't strong enough to be above Voldemort and being a minion of his, and Dumbledore because he didn't stop Snape when he had the chance. If the prophecy had never been revealed ever again, Voldemort never would have gone after Harry and things would have been VERY different. So, as Dumbledore seems very aware in HBP that his mistakes are HUGER than normal people's, what is it that he is referencing when he says that? Could it be the mistake of not stopping Snape?

arithmancer

July 28th, 2006, 6:36 pm

see i think he heard the full prophecy - this is my theory posted on here a few pages back:

I see you list Voldemort's targeting of half-bloods as Snape's motive. Do we have any evidence of Voldemort targeting half-bloods?

big_bookie15

July 28th, 2006, 6:45 pm

In reply to where you said that Snape could have killed Harry, we know he could have, but he was following orders from Voldemort, orders that said Harry was only for him.

ronjalina

July 28th, 2006, 6:48 pm

[INDENTIf Voldemort only heard the first half, then we can guess based on how Voldemort acted that he only learned from Snape this:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..."
Yes, I always understood that´s the part Voldemort knows. Nothing more.
However, he seems to fear Harry a bit and seems to believe that Harry is extra special and has better powers than just what has been deemed mediocre. So perhaps he knows this bit:

"but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" Of course he fears Harry a bit. Voldemort, the most powerful wizard of his time, feared by opponents as well as his followers, went to Godric´s Hollow to perform the most powerful killing curse on a one year old baby-boy and the curse backfired and would have killed Voldemort completely hadn´t he taken some precautions in creating Horcruxes. So I don´t think he knows this bit of the prophecy.
*He was caught by Aberforth, we know that, and that Aberforth came up behind him and started talking to him and chastising him for being at the door and such may have caused too much noise for him to hear the rest.

*Or, he heard it all and went back to Voldemort with a foggy head and could only remember bits and pieces. And instead of seeming incompetent he decided to pass it off as the full prophecy.
I tend to think it is one of these two explanations.

*Or, he purposefully told Voldemort only half for whatever his reasons. Snape was obviously still on Voldemorts side at that point so I see no reason why he should tell him only part of the prophecy on purpose. Snape couldn´t foresee what would happen so if he has had an so far unknown reason to deceive Voldemort why did he tell him of the prophecy in the first place? He could have just kept his mouth shut.
But nevertheless, I find it funny that Dumbledore did not go after Snape nor attempt to stop him so he could speak to him, knowing the kind of prophecy that he just witnessed was about Voldemort as well as a baby the prophecy says is going to be more powerful than Voldemort.

Which makes me wonder as he didn't go after Snape . . . did Dumbledore expect the child to be just like Voldemort? Did he expect him to be evil too as the prophecy is vague as to who's side the kid will be on? The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal . . . "equal" makes it seem that the casual listener would think double trouble and that they'll have a little war between each other over who's more powerful.

Could it be that Dumbledore was going to allow this "new threat" to die, and that's why he didn't stop Snape, because Snape was thrown out of the Hog's Head and it doesn't seem like Dumbledore spoke to him at all? Then he learned that the Potters and Longbottoms were due in July and realized he couldn't let a little child die, and so when Snape came along worried about Lily, Dumbledore made a point to make sure his mistake of letting Voldemort know of the child was cleaned up by putting the Potters into hiding, as Snape told him Voldemort would go for their kid.
I don´t think it is consistent with Dumbledore´s character to insinuate he would allow a little child to be killed under what circumstances ever. Dumbledore - even if he feared that this child could become evil like Voldemort - would always have tried to bring him to the good side. Like he does with Draco i.e.

Edit to answer to the next post:

As for Dumbledore, I know it is crazy to think he would just allow a kid to be killed, but why didn't he go after Snape and find out what he heard from the prophecy? Why not stop him? Dumbledore seemed mighty reckless with the way he handled things back then, if you ask me. I think Dumbledore wasn´t aware that Snape was a Death Eater at that time. Plus I think he didn´t know how much Snape had heard or if he had heard anything at all. But I admit I don´t have my book with me and I do not recall the scene in detail.
As I said before it would be totally OOC for Dumbledore. Never ever would he accept the possibility that a little kid got killed.

mwbashful18

July 28th, 2006, 6:55 pm

In reply to where you said that Snape could have killed Harry, we know he could have, but he was following orders from Voldemort, orders that said Harry was only for him.

Oi, why not Stun Harry, tie him up, and magic him straight to Voldemort so he can be done with it? Does he really think Voldemort wants to play cat-and-mouse with Harry forever? If he's such a good little Death Eater, why not get the kid and get rewarded. He can always say the kid was knocked out and be done with it. There was no need to leave him there unharmed. And if he's truly so evil, why doesn't he condone torture? If you ask me, he needed a quick desperate reason to keep Harry safe and claiming Voldemort wants Harry alive and kicking for his own fun to stalk was the best option.

As for Dumbledore, I know it is crazy to think he would just allow a kid to be killed, but why didn't he go after Snape and find out what he heard from the prophecy? Why not stop him? Dumbledore seemed mighty reckless with the way he handled things back then, if you ask me.

Idabomb333

July 28th, 2006, 8:19 pm

Oi, why not Stun Harry, tie him up, and magic him straight to Voldemort so he can be done with it? Does he really think Voldemort wants to play cat-and-mouse with Harry forever? If he's such a good little Death Eater, why not get the kid and get rewarded. He can always say the kid was knocked out and be done with it. There was no need to leave him there unharmed. And if he's truly so evil, why doesn't he condone torture? If you ask me, he needed a quick desperate reason to keep Harry safe and claiming Voldemort wants Harry alive and kicking for his own fun to stalk was the best option.
If that's what Voldemort wanted, why wouldn't he have asked Snape to bring Harry to him in OotP or earlier in HBP? He would have at least told the DEs that if Dumbledore dies, then they should try to bring Harry to Voldemort. The DEs didn't fight Snape when he said the order came from Voldemort. It sure seemed to me as though Voldemort had ordered them to leave Harry alone.

As for why Voldemort would do that, it's pride. It's the same reason he told the DEs to do nothing when he dueled Harry in GoF. He has to show that he's more powerful than Harry, who has defied him so many times. If someone else manages to bring Harry in after the DEs saw Harry embarrass Voldemort in GoF, Voldemort looks weak. He needs to prove it to himself, as well. This is the "Chosen One" from the prophecy. Voldemort would be very dissatisfied with himself if he did not personally eliminate the one predicted to have the power to defeat him.

MRWHITE213

July 28th, 2006, 8:52 pm

If that's what Voldemort wanted, why wouldn't he have asked Snape to bring Harry to him in OotP or earlier in HBP? He would have at least told the DEs that if Dumbledore dies, then they should try to bring Harry to Voldemort. The DEs didn't fight Snape when he said the order came from Voldemort. It sure seemed to me as though Voldemort had ordered them to leave Harry alone.

As for why Voldemort would do that, it's pride. It's the same reason he told the DEs to do nothing when he dueled Harry in GoF. He has to show that he's more powerful than Harry, who has defied him so many times. If someone else manages to bring Harry in after the DEs saw Harry embarrass Voldemort in GoF, Voldemort looks weak. He needs to prove it to himself, as well. This is the "Chosen One" from the prophecy. Voldemort would be very dissatisfied with himself if he did not personally eliminate the one predicted to have the power to defeat him.

Voldemort had already had Harry brought to him once in GoF so why not now? I don't think Voldemort ordered them either way about taking Harry, but may have said not to hurt or kill him.

I have a hard time saying Snape is "good", because he really isn't a good person but he may be opposed to Voldemort and that's about as close to "good" as I can give him. If his loyalties are not with Voldemort, than it is very easy for him to make and excuse on why he did not attempt to capture and bring Harry back to Voldemort at the end of HBP, they were being chased by Order Members etc and barely got away from them after killing Dumbledore. If his loyalties are with Voldemort, then I have to say you are 100% correct and he knows Harry will eventually just come to him.

mwbashful18

July 28th, 2006, 9:03 pm

Okay, having just read the chapter called "Horcruxes" in HBP, I have a new thing I'm into and I really think there's something to it!

Dumbledore tells Harry that the Prophecy led Voldemort to act rashly and that by being reckless Voldemort marked Harry as his own equal. Had he not listened to the Prophecy nor acted so quickly, Voldemort would not have suffered as he did and Harry would not be the person he is. Because of his parents and Sirius and the Dursleys and the Weasleys and such, Harry would have been a very different kid.

So, Harry has himself stuck on "it all boils down to one of us killing the other" which agitates Dumbledore because to him it is so much more. Dumbledore says "phooey" to the Prophecy and tells Harry that he shouldn't set store by it, that he needn't even listen to it. That he could hide forever and not be required by the Prophecy to be the one to kill Voldemort. But Dumbledore tells Harry that he is the one with "the power of love" at his disposal and that if Harry thinks about it, doesn't he feel like it is his duty anyways to kill Voldemort.

Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort, once the Horcruxes have been destroyed, will have a mutilated soul and be mortal. But, because he is a very skilled wizard and powerful, it will take an equally powerful and skilled wizard to beat him. Harry's retorts that he isn't "skilled and powerful." Dumbledore tells him here that he has his weapon of love. As Harry thinks, the ability to love doesn't seem powerful enough.

So, my theory is if you put this concept of Harry's ability to love and such into effect with "skilled and powerful" could it mean then that Harry's chance against Voldemort will be in having this power of love to have mercy and faith in Snape, who IS skilled and powerful enough to take on Voldemort?

Let me back this up with support: Dumbledore also explains to Harry that people who are victims, who are abused, always at some time rise up and that is what Voldemort was threatened by - the possibility that Harry would be the one to rise up. Dumbledore to Harry: "Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress?" Snape, as a "minion" of Voldemort's and clearly disgruntled with having to serve him again (look at GoF's ending when Snape pales; Occlumency lesson when he outright tells Harry that Dumbledore is more confident and powerful and he nervously grabs his arm where the Dark Mark is, and not as though he enjoys having it).

What if Dumbledore is a tad wrong and the key to fighting Voldemort will be Harry coming to a peace with Snape so that he, the powerful, skilled wizard, can do battle and Harry can assist?

:tu: or :td: ?

Idabomb333

July 28th, 2006, 9:19 pm

Voldemort had already had Harry brought to him once in GoF so why not now? I don't think Voldemort ordered them either way about taking Harry, but may have said not to hurt or kill him.
That was when Voldemort was incapable of surviving on his own, and needed Harry for the purpose of generating a body...

ronjalina

July 29th, 2006, 5:19 pm

So, my theory is if you put this concept of Harry's ability to love and such into effect with "skilled and powerful" could it mean then that Harry's chance against Voldemort will be in having this power of love to have mercy and faith in Snape, who IS skilled and powerful enough to take on Voldemort?

Let me back this up with support: Dumbledore also explains to Harry that people who are victims, who are abused, always at some time rise up and that is what Voldemort was threatened by - the possibility that Harry would be the one to rise up. Dumbledore to Harry: "Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress?" Snape, as a "minion" of Voldemort's and clearly disgruntled with having to serve him again (look at GoF's ending when Snape pales; Occlumency lesson when he outright tells Harry that Dumbledore is more confident and powerful and he nervously grabs his arm where the Dark Mark is, and not as though he enjoys having it).

What if Dumbledore is a tad wrong and the key to fighting Voldemort will be Harry coming to a peace with Snape so that he, the powerful, skilled wizard, can do battle and Harry can assist?

:tu: or :td: ?
Well, this would make Snape the hero of the "Harry Potter" series in the end, wouldn´t it? I honestly can´t see that happening. It would go against every literary tradition as far as I know. JKR is inventive and tries to avoid clichés as much as possible, but this would make no sense at all. This is the "Harry Potter" series, Harry is the main protagonist, it is his journey and he will be the one will face Voldemort in the end.

I am sure, however, that Snape will have a pivotal role in HP7 and since I am convinced that Snape is on the good side he will be very helpful in some way.
That is going to be definately very interesting.

katheadmistriss

July 29th, 2006, 5:51 pm

well i dont believe he's evil, because he doesn't think of himself as evil so there's no reason to assume that he is evil. as to him coming back the only reason i can find for him doing this would be to spy on, capture, or kill some one.

MarryMeDaniel

July 29th, 2006, 5:58 pm

Hi, I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but this is the reason that I believe Snape is Good...
pg 571(US) Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth...

pg 595(us) Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

I think that both Harry and Snape had given Dumbledore their word and were just following through.

oliverwood4evr

July 29th, 2006, 6:19 pm

I believe that he is a traitor and he betrayed us all! :no:

But then again, I doubted him from the beggining, so.......:p

feetoffthetable

July 29th, 2006, 6:21 pm

Out of all the acts that Snape does throughout the series, there is just one that stands out in my mind that proves he is "good". Sure there are reasons why he may of done some of the good things and even the evil things. Out of all these posts I see an argument for both sides of weather he is good or evil, but there is one act in GoF that can not be explained in my opinion. At the end when Dumbledore is arguing with Fudge on weather Voldemort has returned. Snape, on his own, with no rhyme or reason pulls up his sleeve and exposes the dark mark to Fudge in hopes of "proving" the DL has returned. Snape didn't have to do this, and by all rights it would of hurt the DL tremendously to be known to be again in full power again by the ministry. This single, selfless act that Snape does, is the only act he does where no argument that I can personally think of could be made where it would help the death eaters side at all. The implications of the ministry to act immediatly would of made for a far tougher time for the DL and his followers to come to power over the dementors, the giants, the werewolves, etc... With Snape bearing his mark and demanding Fudge to look at it upon his arm as proof of the rebirth, was the single act Snape has done, not only on his own, without being provoked, but also has no dark seeded agenda, has no other explanation but that Snape made his choice on fighting for the "good" side from that moment on in the eyes of the reader. It should of made it known to the people witnessing the act too, but as Dumbledore said once, "... that some wounds run too deep for the healing". Therefore the killing of Dumbledore is too painful for both the reader and the order to remember such an act as "proof" that Snape is in a league of his own to his loyalties. Remember, Snape just can't come out and say, well of course I am on the good side..he MUST stay shady, questionable, and even downright impossible to figure out if he is to succeed in DD's plan. Where would the Order be if it weren't for Snape giving the info. They certainly wouldn't of known about the weapon he tried to possess from the MoM. They wouldn't of known that Harry went off to help Serius there either. He is the perfect character for the part, the underlying hero if you will.. he will or should be a huge help in Harry in Book 7 and it will be interesting to see how Snape is going to overcome Harry's hatred, anger and the sense of revenge towards Snape and understand that Snape is the only person left to feed him enough information to do in the DL. Hmmmm

DarwinMayflower

July 29th, 2006, 6:36 pm

One thing I have to say is that Snape is indeed a smart one. If you go all the way back to the first book and look at the challenges required to get to the Stone, you can see that his riddle/puzzle was probably the hardest of them all. Hermione said herself that even talented wizards probably have don't have a lot of logic which can reflect the logic behind Snape's character and motivations. Good or not, he's still a very smart opponent to either Harry or Voldemort.

RonsGryfBaby

July 29th, 2006, 6:44 pm

Personally, I think Snape's evil. If his loyalties were with Dumbledore, then he would not have killed him. There is, however, one way that I could see Snaope being good and that goes with my nearly imposible theory of that entire scene being staged between Dreaco, Snape, and Dumbledore.

My impossible teory si that becuase this scene was staged, Dumbledore managed to jump off the tower at the exact moment that Snaope cast the spell, making it LOOK like he was hit with the spell but in reality wasn't. Then he cast the same spell he used on Harry in PoA to slow his fall to the ground. He pretended to be dead for harry, so that Harry would think he was on his own to find the rest of the Horcurzes and kill You-Know-Who and at the same time, letting You-Know-Who think that he was dead so that he would have a clear shot at Harry. In the White Tomb chapter, there was a patronus-like flame that rose from the coffin. This was a message to the Order that told them that everything was in place for Harry to take care of what he needed to.

So I think that it's possible for Snape to be good, but at the same time, he could be bad. It all really depends on how the 7th book goes, really.

mwbashful18

July 29th, 2006, 6:54 pm

Okay, I'm just saying I'm with Harry when I agree that he is not powerful enough nor skilled enough to take on Voldemort. Not in a battle. Not unless he gets the hang of Occlumency, which I doubt is just going to suddenly happen. Although, perhaps Snape's "betrayal" of Dumbledore and the fact that Harry wants to take him on as well will cause Harry to concentrate on Occlumency, because he knows he can't fight Snape let alone Voldemort until he does; and the overwhelming determination to fight Snape will be his concentration agent in learning Occlumency.

This is just a far-reaching idea for what could happen at the end of the final book:

I think we might get a surprise Horcrux left - Voldemort's wand. Think of the "ooohhh" appeal it has to LV. Tom Riddle's eyes bugged when he saw Dumbledore's. He knows of the connection it has with Harry's wand. And, he's had it all those years and it contains a feather from Dumbledore's phoenix, Fawkes. Of course he thinks the wand is some glorious object, and as no one ever wants their wand to be damaged, it would be a rather safe object to house part of his soul because he would never allow anything to happen to it as it's always with him.

So, supposing Harry and Snape take on LV together, wouldn't it be interesting if Harry manages to "kill" LV? They think, "Oh my God, we did it!" But, because of the wand, Voldemort is still alive and he possesses one of them. This is where Harry's "power of love" could be important. You know Rowling will do something creative and there will be some twists and turns at the end. I have faith that she'll give both Harry and Snape there goes at LV because they both want to take him down.

But I agree, Snape will be a pivotal character and will probably appear often in the book. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Snape's point of view more than once. One could only dream! :D

ronjalina

July 29th, 2006, 7:17 pm

Okay, I'm just saying I'm with Harry when I agree that he is not powerful enough nor skilled enough to take on Voldemort.
Harry thinks that, but every time Harry contradicts and understates his abilities Dumbledore emphasizes Harry´s ability to love and that he should not underestimate his power. The power Voldemort knows not. So I would be with Dumbledore on this issue.
I think we might get a surprise Horcrux left - Voldemort's wand. Think of the "ooohhh" appeal it has to Voldemort. Tom Riddle's eyes bugged when he saw Dumbledore's. He knows of the connection it has with Harry's wand. And, he's had it all those years and it contains a feather from Dumbledore's phoenix, Fawkes. Of course he thinks the wand is some glorious object, and as no one ever wants their wand to be damaged, it would be a rather safe object to house part of his soul because he would never allow anything to happen to it as it's always with him.
That´s a great idea. Maybe Fawkes once belonged to Godric Gryffindor. Thus the wand would be the item of Gryffindor. (I have no idea if this makes any sense, it just came into my mind ;) )

So, supposing Harry and Snape take on Voldemort together, wouldn't it be interesting if Harry manages to "kill" LV? They think, "Oh my God, we did it!" But, because of the wand, Voldemort is still alive and he possesses one of them. This is where Harry's "power of love" could be important. You know Rowling will do something creative and there will be some twists and turns at the end. I have faith that she'll give both Harry and Snape there goes at Voldemort because they both want to take him down. I think by the time Harry meets Voldemort for the "final battle" so to say he would know if there was another horcrux left. By that time he will have tracked down and destroyed all the supposed Horcruxes he and Dumbledore had figured out during their lessons. If one of these items turns out not to be a Horcrux Harry wouldn´t go to meet Voldemort in the first place. He will not face him before all the Horcruxes are dealt with. I think it will be Harry alone who faces Voldemort. He has to deal with him on his own. Voldemort set up this scenario himself by believing in the prophecy and trying to kill Harry.

Snape will be very relevant to the story prior to that. There has still a lot to be revealed about him.

Infinity9999x

July 29th, 2006, 7:44 pm

Hey, I haven't been on the boards for a lonnng while, but I was just wondering, is the Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him still a pretty valid theory? I remember that was a big discussion about a year ago around now. Because of the whole inconsistant discription of Avada Kedavra, Dumbledore being thrown into the air instead of just falling dead, Harry not being able to scream until Dumbledore hit the ground ect..

arithmancer

July 29th, 2006, 7:46 pm

IgoRetla

July 29th, 2006, 9:28 pm

I think we might get a surprise Horcrux left - Voldemort's wand. Think of the "ooohhh" appeal it has to Voldemort. Tom Riddle's eyes bugged when he saw Dumbledore's.:D

All right, but one of Dumbledore's postulated requirements for a Horcrux is that when Voldemort makes a precious item into a Horcrux, he no longer wants it near him.

So, where do you suppose that Lord Voldemort hid his wand? :lol:

Maybe that's why he's hiding out...Dumbledore demonstrated that being wandless is a bit of a problem.

Truthfully, I don't think that it was actually Dumbledore's wand per se that made Tom Riddle's eyes bug out, but the ability to focus and channel magic that it represented.

I dunno, if Snape is "on the good side", could he make a more dramatic statement than rescuing a captured Harry right out from under Voldemort's nose? In that case, I think he'd really be showing his true colors--and Harry would be forced to see it.

Or, would that be considered "coming back" to the good side"?

arithmancer

July 29th, 2006, 9:45 pm

I dunno, if Snape is "on the good side", could he make a more dramatic statement than rescuing a captured Harry right out from under Voldemort's nose? In that case, I think he'd really be showing his true colors--and Harry would be forced to see it.

Or, would that be considered "coming back" to the good side"?

That depends on why you think he killed Dumbledore...

missjanepotter

July 29th, 2006, 11:20 pm

How can we now if Snape is really evil or not if that`s what J.K wants us to wonder.

I think that what she wants to is to make up your mind for yourself about Snape,each one of us has to play along and choose a side are you with Snape or not?

Personaly, I wish Snape wore good, just because is a great way to make drama and maybe it cut be a better end to Snape`s story.

But what do I now? I trust J.K and I now she won`t let us down.

mwbashful18

July 30th, 2006, 5:13 am

But wouldn't it make perfect sense to make your wand, your defense/weapon that you should keep in perfect condition and with you at all times, the object that keeps you from having to perform tasks like any other common Muggle, to make it a Horcrux? No chance you'll see it destroyed and it's not like anyone's gonna find it if it's in your robes pocket.

If there is ever anything you want to keep safe - Do you keep it with you or apart? Me, if I'm carrying money, and lots, I'll want that in my pocket rather than a bag. If your prized possession is on you at all times and you know it won't be taken, then make it your Horcrux.

Oi! Forgot to mention why it would be a Horcrux - Lucius told Voldemort about the diary being destroyed and Snape told Dumbledore how angry Voldemort was. He knows the diary was destroyed. I should think Madam Amelia Bones may have been the kill for the wand Horcrux as it seemed important to him to do it himself.

Alastor

July 30th, 2006, 5:40 am

As I fail to see where murdering Madam Bones for a Horcrux connects to Snape being good or bad, I'd like to recommend this thread:
Identifying & Tracking Down the Remaining Horcruxes v.2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=90000) :)

cindysuewho45

July 30th, 2006, 9:07 am

Hi all, I feel that when Harry had that dream back in his 1st year, about the turban, Snape and Voldemort. That Harry was seeing even back then that Snape was on the bad side. And when Dumbledore and Snape were " arguin' ", and Hagrid was listen. Dumbledore told Snape to look into his House about what was going on. If Dumbledore and Snape had worked out a plain to kill Dumbledore. Then Snape would have already told Dumbledore about everything, and Dumbledore would not of had to ask anything.:shrug: So this makes Snape look bad,:evil: along with other things. Now I do like Snape in the books, a lot. And I do feel that he will do something to end up helping Harry. But I also feel that Snape killed Dumbledore:upset: and Dumbledore did not know that Snape was going to do it!

SinLooWho

July 30th, 2006, 9:27 pm

Which makes me wonder as he didn't go after Snape . . . did Dumbledore expect the child to be just like Voldemort? Did he expect him to be evil too as the prophecy is vague as to who's side the kid will be on? The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal . . . "equal" makes it seem that the casual listener would think double trouble and that they'll have a little war between each other over who's more powerful.

While I think that the fact Dumbledore did not go after Snape begs a closer look, I do not believe that it was because DD would be willing to let a child die because he thought that they might be evil. He thought, or had his suspisions about Tom Riddle when he went to visit him, but he did nothing about his supisions there either and I think that he knew that Tom would be very powerful. He was already able to focus his powers, before he even knew what he really was.

I really think it is key though to know when Snape changed sides. We are to believe that the prophecy was before Harry was born, right? So, if Snape heard the prophecy and while still a DE told Voldemort about it, why did he wait a year? Were the Potters in hiding from the time that Harry was born then?

Here is my thought if the prophecy was given before Harry was born, being that it said "will be born as the seventh month dies", right?

Snape heard the prophecy and was very conflicted at the time about what to do with the information. Maybe he was already tired of being used by the DEs and Voldemort. What if he finally decides to go to the one person who can protect him if he turns against LV, Dumbledore, for advice. He at that time tells Dumbledore all that he heard and they agree to make Snape a spy. To make sure LV still finds him invaluable, they decide that he should go to Voldemort with some information that he needs to know, the prophecy, but only half of it. And the rest, as they say, is history.

My other thought was that he struggles with the prophecy for a while and goes to LV with the prophecy, but for whatever reason he only gives him half of it by choice. (Maybe to have some sort of leverage later---who knows) Then finding out, as so many people seem to think, that it is the Potters that he chooses to go after, Snape goes to Dumbledore because of Lily.

I don't know why, I just think that Snape heard the entire thing.

As for the wand Horcrux thing...would you really want one of your Horcruxes in the hands of Peter Pettigrew? I don't know, that just doesn't seem like a smart move to me.

arithmancer

July 30th, 2006, 10:02 pm

I really think it is key though to know when Snape changed sides. We are to believe that the prophecy was before Harry was born, right? So, if Snape heard the prophecy and while still a DE told Voldemort about it, why did he wait a year? Were the Potters in hiding from the time that Harry was born then?

I believe that it could not be known to whom the prophecy might apply until after Harry's birthday. Predicting birthdays is not an exact science, a Muggle OB will tell you a date, but then explain that that means any day within two weeks of that day, in either direction. We have no reason to suppose witches are any better at this. After all, were Harry born just a day after he actually WAS born (Aug. 1, that would have been) he would not have been in the running at all. So it is not at all clear Snape waited.

He told Voldemort the prophecy. After July 31, Voldemort identified the two actual candidates who were born at the right time and met the other criteria, and decided to go after the Potters first. He might not have told Snape this immediately, we have no idea what position Snape had in the Death Eater hierarchy at the time. So there could have been more delay between Voldemort deciding to go after Harry, and Snape figuring it out.

SinLooWho

July 31st, 2006, 1:01 am

So, you are saying that the prophecy was made before or after the births of those eligible? And if before and Snape did not wait to tell him, why did Voldemort wait an entire year?

arithmancer

July 31st, 2006, 1:19 am

So, you are saying that the prophecy was made before or after the births of those eligible? And if before and Snape did not wait to tell him, why did Voldemort wait an entire year?
It was made before, but until those eligible were born, noone could know who would be eleigible.

Fall/Winter: Snape hears, and reports, prophecy.
July: Harry and Neville are born.
AUgust/September: Voldie figured out those 2 are the candidates.
?? even later ??: Someone tells snape.

Snape could then go straight to Dumbledore, and still there would be nearly a year between when Snape told the prophecy, and when he talked to Dumbledore.

SinLooWho

July 31st, 2006, 4:46 am

It was made before, but until those eligible were born, noone could know who would be eleigible.

Fall/Winter: Snape hears, and reports, prophecy.
July: Harry and Neville are born.
AUgust/September: Voldie figured out those 2 are the candidates.
?? even later ??: Someone tells snape.

Snape could then go straight to Dumbledore, and still there would be nearly a year between when Snape told the prophecy, and when he talked to Dumbledore.

I follow your timeline...but Voldemort didn't act a month or two after they were born. July: Harry and Neville are born.
AUgust/September: Voldie figured out those 2 are the candidates. Harry was a year old, right?

And also, Snape heard the prophecy during an interview with Porf Trelawny to become a teacher, right? Didn't he do that over the summer holiday? Or did they need a Divination teacher in the middle of the term?

Let me know when I'm on you last nerve zgirnius:p You are very patient with my dimwittedness:lol:

arithmancer

July 31st, 2006, 5:22 am

I follow your timeline...but Voldemort didn't act a month or two after they were born. Harry was a year old, right?
That's right. 15 months old on the button.

And also, Snape heard the prophecy during an interview with Porf Trelawny to become a teacher, right? Didn't he do that over the summer holiday? Or did they need a Divination teacher in the middle of the term?
It seems unlikely the interview was in the summer. The weather is described as cold and rainy. (Yes, I realize this is Scotland we are talking about, but still...) So I'm guessing that the position fell vacant in the middle of the school year, do to the unexpected departure for whatever reason fo the previous instructor.

Our only source telling us Snape was there for an interview as well is Trelawney. She might have decided this in retrospect, when Snape joined the staff a year or so after she did. She certainly knew no other reason Snape would be eavesdropping (like, because he was a Death Eater interested in spying on Dumbledore...).

It is I who should apologize, I misunderstood the sourse of your confusion. I'm suggesting Snape warned Dumbledore long before Voldemort acted, and you are wondering how that could be.

Snape was already teaching at Hogwarts when Harry's parents were killed. That's two months. (School starts Sept. 1, the nmurders were on Oct. 31). So there is definitely a question of what Voldemort was up to for at least those two months, and possibly a lot longer, if he figured out it was the Potters earlier.

The explanation I buy into this is that the Potters and Longbottoms were both told to go into hiding by Dumbledore soon after the babies were born. Not a Fidelius charm, then, just more standard hiding. It is explained by Rowling in an interview that Harry had no godmother because his christening was a hurried affair, they were going into hiding. I don't believe the christening occured just before the Potters were killed, because that would make Harry well over 1, not at all a typical age. In most Christian denominations that baptise babies, this occurs far earlier than after the first birthday.

So Voldemort could have identified the Potters, but then have had trouble finding them. Maybe they moved from place to place, had close escapes, etc. But then they resorted to the Fidelius charm (tired of running, perhaps?) they stopped worrying, because Voldemort couldn't find them anymore. A week later they were dead, because it turns out they trusted the wrong guy.

feetoffthetable

July 31st, 2006, 7:17 am

I have also believed from the beginning that Snape heard the entire prophecy. The only clue we have to when the prophecy was made is "a cold and rainy night..." Not much to go by, except fall/winter of 1980. I say this because throughout the book, Harry was a year old when his parents were killed... Oct 31, 1981. Actually he was a year and 2 months. Why so much time going by then? Thats the part in book 7 that we should learn a tons about. I also think that Dumbledore lied to Harry. Dumbledore states that the person who overheard the prophecy only heard the beginning...

HP OoTP pg843 american edition

My-our-one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building...... He heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldermort.

Well later on in HBP we learn that to be one big lie, or a mix up, or something because Trelawney states.....

"Yes, there was a commontion outside the door and it flew open, and ther was that rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs although I'm afraid that I myself rather thought he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with Dumbledore-you see, he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt hoped to pick up tips! Well, after that, you know, Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job, and I could not help thinking, Harry, that it was because he appreciated the stark contrast between my own unassuming manners and quiet talent, compared to the pushing, thrusting young man who was prepared to listen at keyholes---Harry, dear?"

How long could it possibly to take to state the few lines of the prophecy and Snape NOT hear the entire thing... specially since it says here that Trelawney SAW the eavesdropper, assuming she had just come out of her trance. Someone said once that she hadn't made the prophecy yet, that she was just about to give it.. but thats not what I'm reading in either passage. If she was to do the blank stare at that moment and go into the harsh voice at that moment.. then it would be Dumbledore who would not hear the first half of the prophecy himself with all the commotion going on. I guess its just my opinion, but some logic has to come into play here. Also seems alittle shady to me that when Harry does question Dumbledore about it being Snape his only response is to say.... "it was his greatest regret in life". There is also the question of when Dumbledore believe Snape went to the good side and Dumbledore states it was before the downfall of Voldemort... so that just tells ya, that somewhere between that 1 year and few months, is where Dumbledore starts working with Snape.. to set into motion Dumbledore plan.

OotP pg 838 american edition

"I cared more for your happiness than your knowing then the truth, more for your peace of mind then MY plan, more for your life then the lives that might be lost if the PLAN failed. in other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act."

Dumbledore even says he didn't tell Harry the truth, but to what extent didn't we, we just don't know yet... but I think that Snape knowing the entire prophecy is one of them.

arithmancer

July 31st, 2006, 2:23 pm

[QUOTE=feetoffthetable]How long could it possibly to take to state the few lines of the prophecy and Snape NOT hear the entire thing... specially since it says here that Trelawney SAW the eavesdropper, assuming she had just come out of her trance. Someone said once that she hadn't made the prophecy yet, that she was just about to give it.. but thats not what I'm reading in either passage. If she was to do the blank stare at that moment and go into the harsh voice at that moment.. then it would be Dumbledore who would not hear the first half of the prophecy himself with all the commotion going on. /QUOTE]

Here's how it could happen, and be consistent with both the pensieve memory and Trelawney's statement:

Dumbledore and Tredlawney are in the room. Snaep sneaks up to the door and starts liteining. Trelawney goes into her trance; she is no longer aware of her surroundings. She begind *** prophecy. Just at this moment the barman happens by and yanks Snape away from the keyhole physically.

At this point, Snpe hearsa nothing further. But Snape does not start yelling, etc. He offers a lame excuse in a normal or quiet sp[eaking tone, which dos not disturb Trelawney as she finisheds the prohopecy, and doies not prevent Dumbledore from hearing the rest of it.

As the Prophecy ends, the barman rejects Snape's excuse, and throws open the door, to show Dumbledore whpo has been loistening ot his priovate convrsation. Trelawney, now out ofthe trance, sees Snape. The barman then throws Snape from the building.

This way, we don't need to explain why Dumbledore lied. The quote you give is not meant as an admission of having lied to Harryl it is an apologyu for having withheld the truth, by not telling him earlier.

mwbashful18

July 31st, 2006, 5:47 pm

I just wanted to say that Snape started teaching at Hogwarts either immediately (someone said there may have been an opening mid-way in the year) or, the first September after Harry was born. Some time between hearing the prophecy in March/April/May before Harry's birth, Snape went to Voldemort and told him what he knew. And again, at some point in time he told Voldemort the prophecy, then Snape went to Dumbledore and switched sides.

This is official as Umbridge asks Snape in OotP how long he'd been working at Hogwarts and he says 15 years. That goes all the way back to Harry's birth. So he was officially with Dumbledore a full year or longer when Harry's parents were killed, so I can imagine, as it was during the school year, it was Dumbledore who had to break it to Snape himself and see his reaction.

What the reaction was, we don't know.

ronjalina

July 31st, 2006, 6:01 pm

Here's how it could happen, and be consistent with both the pensieve memory and Trelawney's statement:

Dumbledore and Tredlawney are in the room. Snaep sneaks up to the door and starts liteining. Trelawney goes into her trance; she is no longer aware of her surroundings. She begind *** prophecy. Just at this moment the barman happens by and yanks Snape away from the keyhole physically.

At this point, Snpe hearsa nothing further. But Snape does not start yelling, etc. He offers a lame excuse in a normal or quiet sp[eaking tone, which dos not disturb Trelawney as she finisheds the prohopecy, and doies not prevent Dumbledore from hearing the rest of it.

As the Prophecy ends, the barman rejects Snape's excuse, and throws open the door, to show Dumbledore whpo has been loistening ot his priovate convrsation. Trelawney, now out ofthe trance, sees Snape. The barman then throws Snape from the building.

This way, we don't need to explain why Dumbledore lied. The quote you give is not meant as an admission of having lied to Harryl it is an apologyu for having withheld the truth, by not telling him earlier.
I agree with your assessment. That´s how it could have happened and be consistent with the Pensieve and Trelawney´s report.

I really have a problem with the scenario that Snape heard the whole prophecy and for some unfathomable reason tells Voldemort only the first part. To me that makes no sense. I cannot come up with one logical reason for that (okay that doesn´t necessarily mean a lot :lol: )

I also agree with your timeline. By the time Voldemort figured out who the candidates were, Snape was already teaching at Hogwarts. We know from what Dumbledore tells in the Pensieve at the Karkaroff trial (GoF) that Snape left Voldemort before his downfall. Unfortunately we never directly learn how long before that. I always had the impression that Snape first applied to the teaching post at Hogwarts on Voldemorts orders to spy on Dumbledore. Afterwards, sometime during the beginning of the term September 1980 and the killing of James and Lily October 1981 he returned to the good side. This happened for a variety of reasons, one of which had to be the influence of Dumbledore. I think Snape had always respected maybe even adored Dumbledore.

giny104

July 31st, 2006, 7:23 pm

Well, i think Snape is EVIL. Since book one, Snape has always treated Harry Potter like a slug. In my opinion, Snape will not return to the good side, even if he turns out to be good, he can't because Voldemort would know, and kill him. So Snape is evil, not good, or else he wouldn't kill Dumbledore and he would've attack the Death Eaters around him.

arithmancer

July 31st, 2006, 8:05 pm

Well, i think Snape is EVIL. Since book one, Snape has always treated Harry Potter like a slug.
Certainly not! Slugs are useful Potions ingredients, I am sure Snape knows just how to care for them. :D

In my opinion, Snape will not return to the good side, even if he turns out to be good, he can't because Voldemort would know, and kill him.
An outcome that would not surprise me. :upset:

So Snape is evil, not good, or else he wouldn't kill Dumbledore and he would've attack the Death Eaters around him.
What do you think Dumbledore meant by his last words, "Severus...Severus, please..."?

Afterwards, sometime during the beginning of the term September 1980 and the killing of James and Lily October 1981 he returned to the good side. This happened for a variety of reasons, one of which had to be the influence of Dumbledore. I think Snape had always respected maybe even adored Dumbledore.

Just a detail: Snape would have started teaching September 1, 1980. (Though he could have been a spy for Dumbledore earlier). mwbashful, Snape had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years in OotP:

'Now… how long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?' she asked, her quill poised over her clipboard.

'Fourteen years,' Snape replied. His expression was unfathomable.

Harry was 15 at the time, so Snape must have started teaching after Harry turned 1, of in 1981. The year his parents were killed.

MaireJay

July 31st, 2006, 8:32 pm

I don't think that Snape killed Dumbledore. I think it was a plot to make Voldemort believe that he was dead, so Voldemort would think that he had one less thing to worry about, cuz then he wouldn't have to worry about someone finding his horcruxes as much. I think that they faked his death so that it would be easier for Dumbledore to help harry defeat Voldemort, without Voldemort knowing. I know that it is easy to hate Snape, and think he's evil, but I don't think that he could be that evil, I mean Dumbledore trusted Snape, and that should be enough for all of us, because we all know that Dumbledore wasn't/ isn't stupid.

SinLooWho

August 1st, 2006, 12:35 am

So if we have that Snape began teaching at Hogwarts the same year, just two months before the Potters died, if could very well have been Lilies death that turned him. Would it not be possible that he started at Hogwarts under Voldemort's orders, since he himself had been blocked from teaching there by Dumbledore, to possibly influence young minds and/or search for anything that may be useful to the DL? Then Snape finds out that the DL killed Lily and suddenly he has a change of heart.

mwbashful18

August 1st, 2006, 4:14 am

Thanks zgirnius, I'm gonna have to get back with a certain friend who was doing Potter Trivia saying it was 15! I wasn't sure but she was "totally right" as she put it. Grr.

potions_geek

August 1st, 2006, 4:29 am

NoxAngel

August 1st, 2006, 12:43 pm

What do you think Dumbledore meant by his last words, "Severus...Severus, please..."?
Sorry, had to cut in with this one - you sounded like you were assuming that there's only one possible meaning behind Dumbledore's comment, and that it's: "Severus, please... kill me [according to our Plan]..." - is this true?

The reason I ask is that I personally see three potential meanings for it:
1. Severus, please... kill me.
2. Severus, please... don't kill me.
3. Severus, please... don't revert back to the Dark ways.

#1 is possible. #2 not so possible, given that I don't see Dumbledore begging for his own life. #3 is obviously leaning more to #2 than #1, but it's not Dumbledore begging/pleading/asking for Dumbledore - but Dumbledore for Snape. "Don't destroy your soul [further?]"

#3 is a very plausible option, very much in Dumbledore's nature, and can be accepted by both the people who think Snape is on Voldemort's side, and those who see him as more out for himself. I personally uphold this option myself, and I'm not convinced Snape's Voldemort's man. :)

Katzchen

August 1st, 2006, 1:50 pm

I really want him to be evil. I don't know why. I just don't want to like him. But I don't think he's evil, too much says he's good.

arithmancer

August 1st, 2006, 2:51 pm

Sorry, had to cut in with this one - you sounded like you were assuming that there's only one possible meaning behind Dumbledore's comment, and that it's: "Severus, please... kill me [according to our Plan]..." - is this true?

You are quite welcome to cut in, we're all discussing here! I do think Dumbledore was asking Snape to kill him, though I don't think it was pre-planned that he would at that time.

The reason I ask is that I personally see three potential meanings for it:
1. Severus, please... kill me.
2. Severus, please... don't kill me.
3. Severus, please... don't revert back to the Dark ways.

#1 is possible. #2 not so possible, given that I don't see Dumbledore begging for his own life. #3 is obviously leaning more to #2 than #1, but it's not Dumbledore begging/pleading/asking for Dumbledore - but Dumbledore for Snape. "Don't destroy your soul [further?]"

#3 is a very plausible option, very much in Dumbledore's nature, and can be accepted by both the people who think Snape is on Voldemort's side, and those who see him as more out for himself. I personally uphold this option myself, and I'm not convinced Snape's Voldemort's man. :)

I agree totally on 2. No way. But I disagree that 3 is an option. Earlier in the evening, Dumbledore has stated to Harry that he trusts Severus Snape completely. He has confirmed it for us just moments before Draco showed up on hte Tower: in a castle possibly under Death Eater attack (the Dark Mark) Dumbledore sent Harry to Snape and noone else (I paraphrase...). Yes, Snape may have been the only one with the skills to help Dumbledore with the green potion damage, but Dumbledore would not risk Harry by sending him to s omeone untrustworthy in his eyes this way even to save his own life, that is clear. Not only was Snape the one Dumbledore needed, he was someone he trusted enough to entrust him with Harry.

When Snape first appeared on the Tower, therefore, DUmbledore should have still held that same opinion of Snape, for Draco had tpold him nothing he had not heard before about Snape. And there was nothing remarkable in Snape's appearance or actions when he came on the scene. He simply opened the door, stopped, and looked around. He would have needed to do so whenther he was contemplating murder, rescue, or any other course of action.

Yet, from the first, Dumbledore's voice is described to us as pleading. If he realized Snape was contemplating betrayal, this should have occured later-either when they gazed at one another (possibility of Legilimency by one or the other), or when Snape's facial expression changed to that look of hatred and revulsion. In which case, Dumbledore's first Seeverus would be neutral, pleased, or relieved, not pleading, and we would be shown a change as Dumbledore realized his mistake.

This id not a proof that Snape is good...but I am convinced Dumbledore went to his death still trusting him.

jkausten

August 1st, 2006, 3:42 pm

I think Snape is good. IMO in HBP when he DD was pleading with Severus he was pleading to be killed so that Harry would not be discovered. Like it's been said many times in the books it comes down to wether or not you trust DD and I do. I think Voldemort could be fooled into believing Snape was an allie because it soughts his ego to believe he controls his DEs, but I give DD much more credit he has always just sort of known...well everything. Nothing with the exception of GOF ever suprises him. So I'll be sticking with DD, and even JKR has said that there is more to Snape than we know.

hunter95

August 1st, 2006, 6:12 pm

What do you think Dumbledore meant by his last words, "Severus...Severus, please..."?

This statement is the key to know whether Snape is truely good or evil. There are two ways to look at this statement. One Snape is truely evil and and Dumbledore realizes he was tricked and he is begging for his life. Two, which is the one I'm leaning towards is that to die was part of Dumbledores plan. We know that Dumbledore doesn't fear death and knows that there are things far worse than death. So it could be possible that Snape was unwilling to kill Dumbledore and Dumbledore was convincing him to do so. Or that the reason the Dumbledore was so trusting of Snape was that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore. Then to cover his own tracks he fled with the Death Eaters and Malfoy.

Lord Godric

August 1st, 2006, 7:33 pm

At the end of GoF, Harry was in Moody/Crouch Jr.'s office and he was looking in the Foe Glass. He saw Minerva McGonagall, Albus Dumbledore, and Severus Snape. This means that Snape was Crouch Jr.'s enemy, the enemy of a death eater, and, therefore, an enemy of Voldemort.

For all we know, Snape could have changed sides sometime afterwards (like when he was talking to Dumbledore in the forest). After all, he didn't seem to keen to take on the job as Dumbledore's spy. It seemed to me like he thought that he wouldn't have to do it again. He thought he was safe from Voldemort, but it turns out he was wrong about that.

This is one of the main factors for me. When Fake!Moody's Foe glass showed Snape, it was after Voldemort had called the Death Eaters back. If he was a threat to him after Voldemort return, and an enemy, than I truely believe that Snape is Good.

I always speculate if Dumbledore had not order Snape back to Voldemort, would he have gone back? What would he have told Voldemort if he did? Would he lie to him, and tell him the same thing anyway?

MRWHITE213

August 1st, 2006, 7:46 pm

Lord Godric

August 1st, 2006, 7:55 pm

I have no clue whether Snape is "good" or "evil", but that being said, I do have to poke a hole through one of the "pieces of evidence" from PoA that I have seen many people use as "proof" he is on the good side. When Crouch Jr (as Moody), had Harry alone in his office, everyone notes how Snape's reflection was in the Foe Glass and that helps support the position Snape is against Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Now, the Foe Glass shows who the owners/possessors would concider enemys, and what was the one thing, on more than one occasion, did Crouch Jr as Moody say? "If there is one thing I hate, is a Death Eater that got away". Crouch Jr hates all the Death Eaters that did not go to Azkaban and did not attempt to locate Voldemort. Snape is a Death Eater that did not go to Azkaban. So of course Snape's reflection would show up in the Foe Glass because in Crouch Jr's mind, Snape was an enemy who betrayed him and Voldemort.

I disagree, it is different to hate someone than for someone to be your enemy. Even if Fake!Moody says he hates Death Eaters that got away that shouldn't matter now. Voldemort is back and they are working on the same side, they should not be seen as enemies.

Also I would like to point out this about what you said: Now, the Foe Glass shows who the owners/possessors would concider enemys, and what was the one thing, on more than one occasion, did Crouch Jr as Moody say? "If there is one thing I hate, is a Death Eater that got away". How do we know he is not acting as Moody when saying this? Of course Moody would hate a Death Eater that got away.

Idabomb333

August 1st, 2006, 8:06 pm

How do we know he is not acting as Moody when saying this? Of course Moody would hate a Death Eater that got away.
It's possible I imagined this, but I thought that after the graveyard scene, when fake Moody takes Harry to his office, he says something about how he really meant that he really did hate the Death Eaters who got away.

MRWHITE213

August 1st, 2006, 8:21 pm

It's possible I imagined this, but I thought that after the graveyard scene, when fake Moody takes Harry to his office, he says something about how he really meant that he really did hate the Death Eaters who got away.

You are not. He is interrogating Harry, trying to find out if Voldemort had punished the DEs that renounced Voldemort after his fall and did not attmpt to find him and return him to power. He wanted them to suffer for what he considered treachery. To Crouch Jr, the Death Eaters that did were not killed or imprissoned and renounced Voldemort were his enemies.

ronjalina

August 1st, 2006, 8:35 pm

Just a detail: Snape would have started teaching September 1, 1980. (Though he could have been a spy for Dumbledore earlier). mwbashful, Snape had been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years in OotP:

'Now… how long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?' she asked, her quill poised over her clipboard.

'Fourteen years,' Snape replied. His expression was unfathomable.

Harry was 15 at the time, so Snape must have started teaching after Harry turned 1, of in 1981. The year his parents were killed.
Thanks. Have I really messed up with the time-line again?:lol:
Okay then the chronology could be like this:

September 1981: Snape starts teaching at Hogwarts and is
a) still a Death Eater and spies on Dumbledore on Voldemorts orders
b) has already returned to the good side

Voldemort searching for the Potters with the intent to kill Baby-Harry might have been the last impetus for Snape to leave Voldemort. The question is still how long before the events of Godric´s Hollow did Snape change allegiances.

You are not. He is interrogating Harry, trying to find out if Voldemort had punished the DEs that renounced Voldemort after his fall and did not attmpt to find him and return him to power. He wanted them to suffer for what he considered treachery. To Crouch Jr, the Death Eaters that did were not killed or imprissoned and renounced Voldemort were his enemies. I also think that Crouch Jr. considers the DEs that got away as enemies. But generally I think this is something which can be interpreted either way. If Snape is good or evil Fake-Moody would think of him as a "Foe" anyway.

Conidia

August 1st, 2006, 10:21 pm

Back on page 54

By Zgrnius
Dumbledore: Severus...Severus, please...
Snape: Avada Kedavra!

This seems insufficient to determine for what it was that Dumbledore was asking.

That said, I think it is unlikely he was begging either for help or for his life. The whole evening he kept harping to anyone who brought up the subject that he trusted Snape. (Completely, even, as he told Harry.) In addition to his words, which could have been lies for some yet-to-be-revealed reason, I find it very telling that upon arriving on the Tower with Harry, with the Dark Mark overhead, he ordered Harry to go to Snape, and talk to no one else. In a school possibly under Death Eater attack, this suggests to me he trusted Snape enough to put Harry's life in his hands, so I think he meant what he said about trusting Snape.

And if he trusted Snape completely, his first reaction to seeing Snape ought to have been relief, if he was hoping for help. Snape did nothing when he first arrived which was suspicious. He stopped and looked around for a moment to see the situation.

It doesn't prove he was asking Snape to kill him, but that seems more likely than asking for help/his life.

mwbashful18
I mean, I'd been up all night and approaching the end, I was reading like a fiend and so nervous and excited at the suspense. I didn't know what would happen and the events unfolding with Dumbledore urging Harry to bring Snape to the tower immediately, to wake Snape up and get him - I was so edgy while reading. And reading zgirnius' post above was a reminder of the excitement and mystery about those quick moments. I wonder what would have happened if Harry had gotten to Snape before Draco came up the stairs? How would Snape and Harry have acted with the situation -- Harry pounding on his door; Snape opening to find nothing until Harry pulls off the cloak; Harry's rapid words about Dumbledore's weakness and his urgence that Snape come to the tower; the fact that the Dark Mark is just above the tower -- how would that have played out?

Why did Dumbledore want Snape to come to the tower in the first place?

By Awiana:
I agree that they planned ways to avoid Dumbledore’s death, but I also think that they had discussed the possibility of Snape killing Dumbledore, as a worst case scenario. It makes sense to me that they would have considered every possibility, and they both knew what they had to do if Snape ever had to choose between killing Dumbledore or dying himself.

They had the reason of Snape's Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco to plan Snape's killing Dumbledore.

By mwbashful18
So, Evil Snape going against the grain of the series and being some ultimate bad guy who never had a chance at all of turning out right? Or, Good Snape going against the grain of society and being the ultimate anti-hero who helps save the day? I think the latter is just more palatable.

The only issue I have with this is in the 2nd chapter of HBP. Sure Snape is an accomplished legilimens and occlumens. Do we think that he could outwit Voldy? A possible out for this argument is the pensieve, or else bottling his memories before encountering Snape. Thing is, do memories actually leave the mind, or is there a trace of them there, or is it merely a copy that is made? Breaking into Snape's mind would possibly reveal removed memories, and his using occlumency...would that be evident?

In sum, as great a wizard as Snape is, he's not more powerful than Voldemort.

I read up to page 58, and started noticing some of my ideas being discussed, so figured I should post them. I think everyone has put in a lot of thought.

Lord Godric

August 1st, 2006, 10:39 pm

The only issue I have with this is in the 2nd chapter of HBP. Sure Snape is an accomplished legilimens and occlumens. Do we think that he could outwit Voldy? A possible out for this argument is the pensieve, or else bottling his memories before encountering Snape. Thing is, do memories actually leave the mind, or is there a trace of them there, or is it merely a copy that is made? Breaking into Snape's mind would possibly reveal removed memories, and his using occlumency...would that be evident?

In sum, as great a wizard as Snape is, he's not more powerful than Voldemort.

Some (like me) would disagree with that, however let me ask you one question.

Are you saying Snape is more powerful that Dumbledore then?

Hpchickq

August 1st, 2006, 10:42 pm

Well Dumbledor trusted Snape didn't he? But than again no one ever stops being a death eater.... its probaly a 50 50 chance but who honestly really knows besides j.k Rowling?

Conidia

August 1st, 2006, 10:53 pm

I think Narcissa plays the role of the traditional woman to the hilt...Finally, I have a sneaking suspicion that (perhaps without quite planning to) she rather hoodwinked Snape.

"You could do it. You could do it instead of Draco, Severus." (etc)
Here's what I think she was really hoping to get out of the meeting. Snape turns her down flat. No, the Dark Lord wants Draco to try first, Snape needs to be a spy. So like the traditional damsel in distress, she collapses in a despairing heap. (Please...in this chapter she was weeping on his chest, tearing at her hair, throwing herself at his feet...the Blacks are nothing if not dramatic.)

Snape responds to her performance by saying,
"It might be possible...for me to help Draco."

She of course jumps all over this suggestion.
[fielddet=HBP]"-oh, Severus-you would help him? Would you look after him, see he comes to no harm?"

Note the three desired actions she lists, in her last statement before she requests the Unbreakable Vow. Whether deliberately or not, I feel that Narcissa definitely pulled a bait and switch on Snape. I think he agreed to make the Vow thinking these would be the three terms. But sneaky Narcissa went back to what she REALLY wanted on the third clause, for Snape to do it if it looks like Draco will fail.

LOL! I loved rereading this with your twist Zgrnius! Not to mention, notice how she twists it to look like it was Snape's idea, to begin with, pouring on th adoration and relief. But, she is relieved, of course!

Are you saying Snape is more powerful that Dumbledore then?

Well, you are saying, I am guessing, that Snape is more powerful than Voldy. How can this be true? Why can Dumbledore not just get rid of Voldy, and if Snape AND D'dore are more powerful than Voldemort, and Snape is willing to kill, then it should be a cinch, shouldn't it?

Snape is not a more powerful wizard than Voldemort.

Adding some thoughts: Dumbledore knew what to look for, "There are always traces left by magic." If Snape was closing his mind, I think D'dore would know.

Also, remember Bella's crooning at the MoM, "The Dark Lord always knows."

Remember too, that Harry broke into Snape's thoughts by using the reversing spell (Protego?). Harry overcame Snape--on more than one occasion. Harry is not more powerful than D'dore. He is LV's equal, though, and so, it fits that a mere student overcoming the teacher would only do so if the teacher is not as powerful as the student. Snape is not more powerful than Voldemort.

Either Voldemort trusts Snape and Snape is evil, Snape hoodwinked Voldemort and got around V's legilimancy somehow, or Voldemort doesn't trust Snape at all, Snape is good, and is saving him for some use later on.

arithmancer

August 1st, 2006, 10:58 pm

Why did Dumbledore want Snape to come to the tower in the first place?

I believe that the reason Snape went to the Tower is because it seemed to Snape at the time the logical place to go.

Snape was in his office, apparently not expecting anything to happen that night. Flitwick ran in to tell him Death Eaters were in the castle, and McGonagall was requesting his help. Snape left his office and went to the action. Why did he go up to the Tower? My guess is because he believed Draco was behind the Death Eaters' presence at the school, and because Draco was not at the foot of the stairs to the Tower where the fight was raging. So he went up the stairs looking for Draco.

Depending on the exact timing of when Snape arrived on the scene of the fight, he might have seen the death Eater barrier in action. This would be an additional reason for (good) Snape to go up the stairs, if Harry's guess about the barrier was right. He would be the only Order member able to go up, by virtue of his Dark Mark. (The rest of my explanation works whoever's side Snape is on).

The only issue I have with this is in the 2nd chapter of HBP. Sure Snape is an accomplished legilimens and occlumens. Do we think that he could outwit Voldy? A possible out for this argument is the pensieve, or else bottling his memories before encountering Snape. Thing is, do memories actually leave the mind, or is there a trace of them there, or is it merely a copy that is made? Breaking into Snape's mind would possibly reveal removed memories, and his using occlumency...would that be evident?

It seems to me Snape's apparent murder of Dumbledore solves that problem neatly, Voldemort does not have a reason to do an in-depth investigation of Snape's loyalties anymore. He trusts noone; but I think the idea that Snape might be loyal to Dumbledore would be inconceivable to him after what Snape has done. So he'll only be keeping an eye on Snape the way he would keep an eye on someon like Lucius...

Conidia

August 1st, 2006, 11:12 pm

Zgirnius,

First off, I'm sorry I misspelled your name.

Then,

I believe that the reason Snape went to the Tower is because it seemed to Snape at the time the logical place to go.

Didn't Dumbledore command Harry to get Snape?

It seems to me Snape's apparent murder of Dumbledore solves that problem neatly, Voldemort does not have a reason to do an in-depth investigation of Snape's loyalties anymore.

True, but this occurred after Snape's returning to Voldemort, described in chapter 2. (Er, it is ch. 2, right?)

Conidia

Lord Godric

August 1st, 2006, 11:15 pm

Snape is not a more powerful wizard than Voldemort.
And where is the canon to prove that? The canon to show that Snape is as powerful if not more powerful that Voldemort is that: For 16 years he has been fooling one of the greatest wizard of all time. Also he did what Voldemort could not do, and that was kill Dumbledore.

Remember too, that Harry broke into Snape's thoughts by using the reversing spell (Protego?). Harry overcame Snape--on more than one occasion. Harry is not more powerful than D'dore. He is LV's equal, though, and so, it fits that a mere student overcoming the teacher would only do so if the teacher is not as powerful as the student. Snape is not more powerful than Voldemort.
So now you are suggesting that not only are Voldemort and Dumbledore more powerful that Snape, but Harry as well? That is wrong. Snape was not applying Legilimency when Harry broke into his memories, he was not expected Harry to fight back like that because he never did it before. That says nothing about Snape's abilities.

Either Voldemort trusts Snape and Snape is evil, Snape hoodwinked Voldemort and got around V's legilimancy somehow, or Voldemort doesn't trust Snape at all, Snape is good, and is saving him for some use later on.Or Snape is good, and all this time his Legilimency was good enough to fool Voldemort, while working for Dumbledore.

Conidia

August 1st, 2006, 11:19 pm

Ah, so you ARE saying that Snape is more powerful than Voldemort.

Snape was not applying Legilimency when Harry broke into his memories, he was not expected Harry to fight back like that because he never did it before.

I think you mean occlumency. He was most definitely applying Legilimency to Harry when Harry reversed the spell.

And where is the canon to prove that? The canon to show that Snape is as powerful if not more powerful that Voldemort is that: For 16 years he has been fooling one of the greatest wizard of all time. Also he did what Voldemort could not do, and that was kill Dumbledore.

So, you're saying Snape is, or isn't, more powerful than D'dore?

Conidia

Lord Godric

August 1st, 2006, 11:27 pm

Ah, so you ARE saying that Snape is more powerful than Voldemort.

I think you mean occlumency. He was most definitely applying Legilimency to Harry when Harry reversed the spell.

So, you're saying Snape is, or isn't, more powerful than D'dore?

Conidia

More powerful than Voldemort and less powerful Dumbledore.

arithmancer

August 1st, 2006, 11:34 pm

Zgirnius, First off, I'm sorry I misspelled your name.
I am quite accustomed to that...:cool:

Didn't Dumbledore command Harry to get Snape?
Ah, yes. Sorry, I misunderstood your question, I thought you meant the Tower specifically. He made that same request in Hogsmeade as well, but the discovery that the Dark Mark hung over the school caused him to move to the Tower. In general, I think it was Dumbledore's wish that Snape come to him to see if he could help with the effects of the green potion. Snape being his top Dark Arts/Potions expert, as it were.

True, but this occurred after Snape's returning to Voldemort, described in chapter 2. (Er, it is ch. 2, right?)

So you are asking how Dumbledore could send Snape back to Voldemort? I don't think we need to explain that, he did. He must have believed Snape ahd a chance. Personally, I think Voldemort was unable to catch Snape in a lie with his Legilimency, but did not necessarily trust him at the start of HBP, because of the problem that Dumbledore alsao seemed to trust Snape, so he must be lying to someone.

Conidia

August 2nd, 2006, 12:10 am

Zgirnius,

In general, I think it was Dumbledore's wish that Snape come to him to see if he could help with the effects of the green potion. Snape being his top Dark Arts/Potions expert, as it were.

I agree. And I also agree that a person can change his mind. But Dumbledore did want to live. It's just that the time had come for Snape to keep his Unbreakable Vow.

So you are asking how Dumbledore could send Snape back to Voldemort? I don't think we need to explain that, he did. He must have believed Snape ahd a chance. Personally, I think Voldemort was unable to catch Snape in a lie with his Legilimency, but did not necessarily trust him at the start of HBP, because of the problem that Dumbledore alsao seemed to trust Snape, so he must be lying to someone.

No, I'm not asking that. I'm wondering how Snape came through his interrogation by Voldemort.

I think Snape is one of THE most powerful wizards. I don't think he's as powerful as Voldemort, though. I wonder how JKR is going to explain how he duped Voldemort, because I REALLY want to believe he's good. (He's my favorite character, as far as literary creations go.)

To be honest, when I first read his explanation to Voldemort, it didn't seem that convincing. The statement to Bellatrix, "If it's good enough for the DL, shouldn't it be good enough for you?" really left a lot to be desired. It seemed to confirm the feeling that Snape was good, and that Voldy was probably on to him. My question, then, was "Why is he still alive?" I was also in the camp of DL accepting it on "possible, but I doubt you Snape." I do believe that Voldy either knows Snape's mind or guessed that he was in league with D'dore, all the time. I don't think killing D'dore will improve his plight, and I don't think it will help Draco. He will have to lie and say Draco killed D'dore, or they are both toast, and even then...

That's provided that Snape is actually a good guy. (Which I hope, hope, hope...)

Conidia

Idabomb333

August 2nd, 2006, 12:54 am

Those of you discussing Snape's relative power, I think you're missing a key point. It appears to me at least that Occlumency is more powerful than Legilimency. Dumbledore seemed to think that Harry would be able to block Voldemort's Legilimency by learning Occlumency. Voldemort and Dumbledore are accomplished at Legilimency, and Snape fooled at least one of them.

Personally, I find that idea to be yet another indication that Snape is good. Voldemort is powerful, but conceited about his power. Voldemort is more likely to believe Snape based on his trust in his own power to detect lies. Dumbledore is more likely to have a solid reason to trust Snape that does not rely on his own power.

arithmancer

August 2nd, 2006, 1:04 am

I agree. And I also agree that a person can change his mind. But Dumbledore did want to live. It's just that the time had come for Snape to keep his Unbreakable Vow.
He did want to live, but was it possible for Snape to rescue him, under the circumstances?

No, I'm not asking that. I'm wondering how Snape came through his interrogation by Voldemort.
I don't think it is an issue of straight power. Snape is a really good Occlumens seems like a reasonable answer to me.

I do believe that Voldy either knows Snape's mind or guessed that he was in league with D'dore, all the time. I don't think killing D'dore will improve his plight, and I don't think it will help Draco. He will have to lie and say Draco killed D'dore, or they are both toast, and even then...

Snape cannot lie about who killed Dumbledore, there are four other witnesses, not to mention Harry. I disagree that killing Dumbledore did not help him with Voldemort. I believe Voldemort really did want Dumbledore dead, and the success of Draco's plan will be enough to 1) save Draco's life, and 2) convince Voldemort that whatever Snape's game is, it is not being 'good'. (Though, that's what I believe... :D)

NoxAngel

August 2nd, 2006, 1:17 am

I agree totally on 2. No way. But I disagree that 3 is an option. Earlier in the evening, Dumbledore has stated to Harry that he trusts Severus Snape completely.
[...]
Not only was Snape the one Dumbledore needed, he was someone he trusted enough to entrust him with Harry.
[...]
If he realized Snape was contemplating betrayal, this should have occured later-either when they gazed at one another (possibility of Legilimency by one or the other), or when Snape's facial expression changed to that look of hatred and revulsion.
[...]
This id not a proof that Snape is good...but I am convinced Dumbledore went to his death still trusting him.
I agree that he probably did trust him to the end. The reason why I see it as being option #3 (ie. begging for Snape's sake), is that when push comes to shove, we all react differently to certain situations. Highly stressful situations sometimes bring the worst side out of people who would otherwise be wonderful - in which case, we can never be entirely sure what they're going to do until they're in that situation.

So, Dumbledore, with all the trust in Snape in the world, would still be entitled to a safe level of questioning regarding what Snape could do within that situation (and I'd like to think that he'd extend that to everyone, because it's a healthy thing to do.) His begging, therefore, becomes one that reinforces the fact that Snape has a choice. He would be begging Snape to choose what was right over what was easy - and what was right could be to kill Dumbledore as part of a Plan, or it could just as easily be not to destroy his soul by killing at all (no matter who the target was.) A very important choice to make in a situation so stressful that the wrong choice could easily be made, with or without the purest of intentions.

Honestly, we can brag all we want about how we think we'd cope in a life-and-death situation, but until we're actually in it, we don't really know what would happen. We can only hope we make the right decisions when it's time to make them. It upsets me that people assume that those in a life-and-death situation will be able to keep their head and automatically do what is right... we can only hope that they do (they may want to, with all the purest intentions, but choose against it when the stress is at it's highest, for whatever reason that they have at that very moment), and try not to demonise them too much if they choose otherwise. It is not a 'normal' situation, and will never call for 'normal' responses, nor even 'normal' thinking processes.

:)

Conidia

August 2nd, 2006, 2:03 am

Zgirnius
Snape cannot lie about who killed Dumbledore, there are four other witnesses, not to mention Harry.

Yes, I remembered that after I posted. It's hard to remember everything, which is why I think it's easy to reread the books just now. You've got to constantly do a Hermione-Fact-Check. ;p

~~~~

From my discussion earlier about "relative power," I think Harry has power he's not aware he has. He doubts himself so much, at least, I think so.

I think he's at least as powerful as Voldemort, but needs to learn of his power, since power is not just about how much magic a wizard knows.

By Idabomb
It appears to me at least that Occlumency is more powerful than Legilimency. Dumbledore seemed to think that Harry would be able to block Voldemort's Legilimency by learning Occlumency.

This IS something I have thought of. It's possible that the act itself is more powerful than that of another act. However, the power of a wizard and his ability to focus is also contributory to how accomplished one is at either of these two things. For Snape to block Voldemort, he'd have to be as good an occlumens (or better) as Voldy is a legilimens. I think D'dore thought Harry could use occlumency successfully because of his proximity to Voldy and his protection from Hogwarts. Plus, the occlumency practice was to clear Harry's mind, not to protect Harry from a direct-on attack of Legilimency from Voldemort.

Oh, boy. I forgot to post a quote from D'dore that I intended to. In book 1, ch. 1, standing on Privet Dr...

"You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have."

"Only because you're too--well--noble to use them." (Posted for context.)

I think it's important that Dumbledore did not underestimate Voldemort.

Conidia

SinLooWho

August 2nd, 2006, 6:24 am

I don't think it is an issue of straight power. Snape is a really good Occlumens seems like a reasonable answer to me.

I agree. The other thing that I think should be considered is that all wizards seem to be unique. Jo has built this world very complex and with a lot of thought. Just like some wizards are born with natural gifts, such as Tonks and the Marauders (or at least three of them). I also think that every wizard has greater apptitude for different things. And some are powerful in multiple areas. So I really think that it is a lot more complicated than just straight who is more powerful.

Also, remember Bella's crooning at the MoM, "The Dark Lord always knows."

I was thinking something about this though. So, after Snape first returns, Voldemort is suspicious and has Peter watching him. Then he makes the UV. Maybe when Peter told the DL that Snape had done that, Voldemort thought that it was enough to prove which side Snape was on. After that at least he may not have tried getting into Snape's head anymore. Then in the end, he kills Dumbledore, which adds to his apperent loyalty

Conidia

August 2nd, 2006, 7:28 am

By SinLooWho
I was thinking something about this though. So, after Snape first returns, Voldemort is suspicious and has Peter watching him. Then he makes the UV. Maybe when Peter told the DL that Snape had done that, Voldemort thought that it was enough to prove which side Snape was on. After that at least he may not have tried getting into Snape's head anymore. Then in the end, he kills Dumbledore, which adds to his apperent loyalty

Interesting thought. Could it be that Voldemort knew that Narcissa would ask this of Snape? I'm worried about Draco. I think he, having been such a bothersome character who was growing along side Harry, deserves an honorable death. Narcissa is worried that Draco will not commit the act against AD. Maybe Voldemort set it up as merely a test for Snape. Draco succeeded in part of his assignment, so that counts in his favor, but maybe Voldy knew, like Narcissa did, that there was no way Draco would succeed in killing AD, and maybe never expected him to.

Does that sound reasonable?

Conidia

mwbashful18

August 2nd, 2006, 6:27 pm

Back on page 54

Why did Dumbledore want Snape to come to the tower in the first place?

They had the reason of Snape's Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco to plan Snape's killing Dumbledore.

The only issue I have with this is in the 2nd chapter of HBP. Sure Snape is an accomplished legilimens and occlumens. Do we think that he could outwit Voldy? A possible out for this argument is the pensieve, or else bottling his memories before encountering Snape. Thing is, do memories actually leave the mind, or is there a trace of them there, or is it merely a copy that is made? Breaking into Snape's mind would possibly reveal removed memories, and his using occlumency...would that be evident?

In sum, as great a wizard as Snape is, he's not more powerful than Voldemort.

I read up to page 58, and started noticing some of my ideas being discussed, so figured I should post them. I think everyone has put in a lot of thought.

Oh, you do not even want to begin debating about the Pensieve and how that thing works!!! :p Nobody on here wants to take logic. At least not when I point it out. :D

Sure we have Snape using the Pensieve to remove memories and we see this as safe-keeping them from Harry. But! As we see with Dumbledore, even though a memory is in the Pensieve, he can still remember the memory. So . . . does that mean the memory is still in there and can be attained from Legillimency? That the Pensieve merely requires a memory strand which is only a copy? Or, is the whole memory removed so another can't get to it in your mind? Well, that simply wouldn't work because no matter what the people who have removed these memories still remember them. So clearly the memories are not wholly removed.

And as for Snape, I think he is a brilliant wizard and almost as good as Dumbledore. I think another 50 years and he will be as good as Dumbledore. He's only just really beginning life in the way of a wizard so for the power he has now, it seems to suggest that if he started cultivating it instead of "teaching dunderheads" he might actually become something big one day. However, he's too modest it seems. But yes, I think he can stand up to Voldemort. Better than Harry if you ask me. Snape just has a better chance of outwitting Voldemort and having enough power.

Would he win is more the question. I dunno if he would but I think he will help contribute towards beating Voldemort in the end, and I'll bet it won't be a spell but something like his riddle in the first book: something using logic, like a trap or a trick. He strikes me as someone who doesn't always need wand-waving to get by. He'd be more likely to come up with that faux-wand idea that someone had: Expelliarmus Voldemort's wand and then toss a bunch of those trick wands the Weasley twins made. I dunno who's idea that was but I thought it was funny! lol. That's somethin Snape would call a decent distraction.

But yes, I'm inclined to believe that up until now Snape had been able to deceive Voldemort. Whether he can continue while being with him all the time is a different story. He won't be able to go on home at the end of the day. And he did just get done killing Dumbledore and knows that the whole of the wizarding world is after him, both the Order and the Ministry. He's got a lot on his plate and frankly, I'd flip out too if some hot-shot kid called me a coward! :D

Idabomb333

August 2nd, 2006, 6:47 pm

Sure we have Snape using the Pensieve to remove memories and we see this as safe-keeping them from Harry. But! As we see with Dumbledore, even though a memory is in the Pensieve, he can still remember the memory. So . . . does that mean the memory is still in there and can be attained from Legillimency? That the Pensieve merely requires a memory strand which is only a copy? Or, is the whole memory removed so another can't get to it in your mind? Well, that simply wouldn't work because no matter what the people who have removed these memories still remember them. So clearly the memories are not wholly removed.
So you think putting a memory in the pensieve only partly removes it?

I think it's wholly removed, but the wizard can remember that it's there and what it's about. I don't know what you mean by, "As we see with Dumbledore... he can still remember the memory." When does that happen? I'm not sure how to deal with the case of Slughorn's modified and real memory both apparently being in Dumbledore's possession at once, though...

LordMoldyShorts

August 2nd, 2006, 6:47 pm

I'm currently unsure. Right now I'd categorize him as a 'bad guy', but really I don't know. Going with my gut feeling I think Snape is good, though. I dunno, when I think of Death Eaters he does not pop up. But I think the canon evidence goes both ways, so I am completely unsure.
But either way, he has a very mean personality. :td:

Conidia

August 2nd, 2006, 9:01 pm

By Mwbashful18
Well, that simply wouldn't work because no matter what the people who have removed these memories still remember them. So clearly the memories are not wholly removed.

You reposted my paraphrased questions, before stating this.

I don't think JKR is very clear on this issue. If it doesn't remove the memory, what would be the point of Snape even taking the one out? And if it does remove the memory, how could they even make sense to Dumbledore?

I think it's possible that the memory acquired and placed in the pensieve is a more complete copy, tapping neural connections that are not stimulated from simple recollection. It's almost like a photograph or a video tape taken at the time of the event being recalled, rather than a memory. That is why the people visiting the memory see the person who owns the memory, rather than just viewing from the person's perspective, which never happens in the pensieve. The visitor is given a degree of omiscience, if one can have a "degree of omniscience."

A true memory is always from the perspective of the person who owns the memory. They cannot see their own face at the time, unless they are looking in a mirror. They cannot see what is behind them. They are finite.

Perhaps Legilimency probes the neural net and gets a complete picture, rather than just one that is remembered. Removing the memory to the pensieve would prevent someone from getting extra details the "rememberer" is not privy to, unless they also visit the memory in the pensieve. It's a safety precaution to empty the thought to the pensieve, rather than knowing accurately what someone else would see.

And as for Snape, I think he is a brilliant wizard and almost as good as Dumbledore. I think another 50 years and he will be as good as Dumbledore.

Brilliant, most definitely. But he's not Dumbledore. Remember what the OWL examiners told Umbridge about D'dore. "He did things with a wand I've never seen." There wasn't so much as a hint about Snape's brilliance then. We always knew Snape was a smart fellow. However, the depth of his genius was not revealed until HBP. He was a bit older than OWL then, and remember that Harry's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death was better than Snape's, according to Slughorn, which may lend support to my notion that he got directions from his mother and he wrote them in the margins. (There are other ideas that can explain Snape's notes, of course. He could have practiced and perfected the instructions.)

We see Harry as a bit inept at times, but I think this is due, greatly, to his lack of self-confidence (with Snape and McGonagall). With Snape huffing down his neck, he'd never been able to perform well, until DADA where he had already mastered a load of spells. And yet, he struggles with unspoken spells (learned under Snape). Notice, however, that he had no trouble with levitating Ron out of bed with a mere thought, on a spell he'd never even tried before.

Snape's escapism was academic, while Harry's is athletic. Just because Snape is more academic in goals doesn't mean he's more powerful than Harry. Why wasn't Snape intimidated like Harry is, in school? Wasn't he almost invisible, except to James? And didn't Snape like his obscurity? I think Harry would give a lot for an ounce of obscurity.

Conidia

OceansEleven

August 2nd, 2006, 10:20 pm

I'd say he's actually good. I actually want that, because then it would be cooler. In the 2nd chapter of HP, while they were making the unbreakable vow, his hand 'twitched' when Narcissa said that if Malfoy were to fail that he would do it. My guess is that his hand twitched BECAUSE that would mean he would have to kill Dumbledore. You all probably know this by now. But that's a big hint in my case. Also, when Harry was force feeding Dumbledore the potion, it said he was disgusted/repulsed at what he was doing. And when Snape hit Dumbledore with the spell, it said he had a disgusted look in his face. In both, they were FORCED to do something they didn't want to.

But we won't find out, until we read book 7.

arithmancer

August 2nd, 2006, 10:32 pm

Brilliant, most definitely. But he's not Dumbledore. Remember what the OWL examiners told Umbridge about D'dore. "He did things with a wand I've never seen." There wasn't so much as a hint about Snape's brilliance then. We always knew Snape was a smart fellow. However, the depth of his genius was not revealed until HBP. He was a bit older than OWL then, and remember that Harry's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death was better than Snape's, according to Slughorn, which may lend support to my notion that he got directions from his mother and he wrote them in the margins.
First...we do have an indication of Snape's Brilliance in his OWL year. He had already invented levicorpus at that time, and quite possibly many of the other spells, including even Sectumsempra, by the time he took his OWL exams. We see these spells used in his 'worst memory'. Why he wrote them down in a 6th year Potions text is unclear, but it is not because they were only invented int he 6th year.

The explanation for why Harry's attempt at the Draught was better that Snape's first attempt is because Harry had the advantage of working from Snape's notes. Snape could have been inventing them as he went along-so the final notes Harry was using could include corrections Snape made after his first attempt did not quite reach the standard for which he was shooting.

I think it is not really possible to say whether he is in Dumbledore's league, though, because he is just WAY too young. (Late 30's, compared to 150+). But both of them were very bright students.

Conidia

August 3rd, 2006, 12:34 am

First...we do have an indication of Snape's Brilliance in his OWL year. He had already invented levicorpus at that time, and quite possibly many of the other spells, including even Sectumsempra, by the time he took his OWL exams. We see these spells used in his 'worst memory'. Why he wrote them down in a 6th year Potions text is unclear, but it is not because they were only invented int he 6th year.

You are right about Levicorpus. He had the book a bit longer than for 6th year, since it was 50 years old, and probably belonged to his mother. (So now, I see in my sleepiness yesterday, I misread fifty as fifteen. :lol: ) I had previously thought the book belonged to Irma, but forgot.

By zgirnius
The explanation for why Harry's attempt at the Draught was better that Snape's first attempt is because Harry had the advantage of working from Snape's notes. Snape could have been inventing them as he went along-so the final notes Harry was using could include corrections Snape made after his first attempt did not quite reach the standard for which he was shooting.

Right. My full quote includes this possibility:

By Conidia
Brilliant, most definitely. But he's not Dumbledore. Remember what the OWL examiners told Umbridge about D'dore. "He did things with a wand I've never seen." There wasn't so much as a hint about Snape's brilliance then. We always knew Snape was a smart fellow. However, the depth of his genius was not revealed until HBP. He was a bit older than OWL then, and remember that Harry's first attempt at the Draught of Living Death was better than Snape's, according to Slughorn, which may lend support to my notion that he got directions from his mother and he wrote them in the margins. (There are other ideas that can explain Snape's notes, of course. He could have practiced and perfected the instructions.)

By zgirnius
I think it is not really possible to say whether he is in Dumbledore's league, though, because he is just WAY too young. (Late 30's, compared to 150+). But both of them were very bright students.

Agreed, they were both very bright. Again, I'm going with the assumption that Snape escaped to his books, plus, some great wizarding ability. I still do not believe he's as powerful as Dumbledore, but working at it, he isn't far out of his league.

Er...just had a thought, from reviewing "Flight of the Prince." Here's the quote by Snape:
"No, Potter!" screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backward...

"You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them -- I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!"

This piques my interest. Could James and Snape have been friends at one time? If not, how would James have known Levicorpus? Of course, if Snape hadn't mastered non-verbal spells, he would have to pronounce the incantation. However, he was studious enough to have come across the information and practice it. Not wanting to give away his spells, I'm sure he would have wanted to conceal them.

Either Snape was betrayed in this manner, I think, or James did, fully knowing that Snape was the inventor of Levicorpus. Just wondering how he might have known.

Conidia

Scantra

August 3rd, 2006, 2:23 am

Just wondering how he might have known.

maybe if Lily was friends with Snape she might have let slip on of Snapes spells infront of James that is of course if you believe in the whole Snape/Lily thing.

SinLooWho

August 3rd, 2006, 3:57 am

This piques my interest. Could James and Snape have been friends at one time? If not, how would James have known Levicorpus? Of course, if Snape hadn't mastered non-verbal spells, he would have to pronounce the incantation. However, he was studious enough to have come across the information and practice it. Not wanting to give away his spells, I'm sure he would have wanted to conceal them.

Either Snape was betrayed in this manner, I think, or James did, fully knowing that Snape was the inventor of Levicorpus. Just wondering how he might have known. Conidia

This is an interesting thought. I do wonder how James got Snape's spells. Being as studious and everything as he was, you would think he learned his non-verbal spell abilities quickly, maybe even early. I think that Snape, being in his 30's or so, and being as powerful and intellegent as he is already...with another 120 yrs to work...I think that he is well on his way to being as powerful, if not more powerful than Dumbledore. Of course the question is...Will he live that long?

Scantra

August 3rd, 2006, 6:14 am

This is an interesting thought. I do wonder how James got Snape's spells. Being as studious and everything as he was, you would think he learned his non-verbal spell abilities quickly, maybe even early. I think that Snape, being in his 30's or so, and being as powerful and intellegent as he is already...with another 120 yrs to work...I think that he is well on his way to being as powerful, if not more powerful than Dumbledore. Of course the question is...Will he live that long?
oh God I hope so! I would be soooo sad if he turned out to be good and then died.:upset:

asphodelowl

August 3rd, 2006, 6:17 am

I think Snape is more good than he is evil,but he's really out for well..... Snape.

arithmancer

August 3rd, 2006, 6:44 am

oh God I hope so! I would be soooo sad if he turned out to be good and then died.:upset:
I hate to say this...but on my way to the local Barnes and Noble next summer...I am definitely stopping for Kleenex.

Woody12345

August 3rd, 2006, 1:01 pm

I haven't made my mind up as to whether Snape is good or not in the first six books. This will sound strange, I think it's irrelevant either way you look at it.

If he is good, he will help set up Harry's final confronation with Voldemort in such a way that Harry will win.

If he is evil, I think he will have to redeem himself. Their's a soft side to Snape if you ask me. And even if you don't agree, he still has to repay his life debt to Harry somehow.

So, in conclusion, I don't really know whether or not Snape is good or evil leaving the sixth book, except that by the end of the seventh, he will be good.

I think snape was good when he killed Dumbledor. He just couldnt brake the unbrakeble vow. (obvousley lol) But now Vlodemort will have prased him and rewarded him. I think he enjoys this and wants more so he is now fully on voldemorts side.

SinLooWho

August 3rd, 2006, 4:17 pm

I don't think that Snape is that shallow. I think that he likes praise and attention, as most people do. But, I also think that he knows enough to know that coming from Voldemort that it is hollow and meaningless, other than the fact that he allows you to live and "be in his presence" I'm sure. Though I do wonder, now that Dumbledore is gone, him being the one that showed so much true appreciation and genuine like of Snape, what will happen to his relationship with the Order. Especially since, if he is good, he will have to prove that now. Dumbledore was a very beloved manamong those who respected him.

TheForce

August 3rd, 2006, 9:37 pm

Well, I think the fact that Dumbledore is indeed dead bodes well for the 'Snape is Good' believers. Please bear with me while I recount some old established facts and tie it in with the new development.

1. Judging from Dumbledore's pleasant chat with Malfoy atop the astronomy tower we are told that Dumbledore had known beforehand that Malfoy was responsible for the poisoned mead and the cursed necklace. Quote:

Malfoy: "Yeah,well, you still didn't realise who was behind that stuff, did you?"
Dumbledore:"As a matter of fact I did. I was sure it was you."

2. We also know that Harry had informed Dumbledore about what he had overheard Snape telling Malfoy on the night of Slughorn's party. So Dumbledore must have learnt about the Unbreakable Vow (although Harry could not tell him the contents of the Vow)

3. So if Dumbledore knew that Malfoy was trying to kill him (we don't know how Dumbledore found out however) and that Snape had made an Unbreable Vow to Narcissa then a brain like Dumbledore would put two and two together and realise that Snape's life must depend on Malfoy's success. In that case it was either him (Dumbledore) or Snape's life that was at stake.

4. I think we are all agreed that Dumbledore would never willingly allow one of his colleagues to take their life for his sake. So he would ask Snape to kill him. Thus, saving Malfoy's innocence and saving Snape.

5. The fact that Fawkes the Phoenix never came to Dumbledore's help that night is (I believe) the final evidence that Dumbledore's death had been anticipated beforehand by Dumbledore himself. He knew he had to die either ways.

6. Finally, the argument that Dumbledore had with Snape outside the Forbiddent forest goes well with this argument.

These are, of course, not my sole ideas. I have only tried to compile the arguments so that we can look at them without the ambiguity of assuming whether Dumbledore was dead or not.

Idabomb333

August 3rd, 2006, 11:01 pm

Well, I think the fact that Dumbledore is indeed dead bodes well for the 'Snape is Good' believers
I've never doubted that Dumbledore is dead, I think Snape is good, and I think you make some good points, but I don't get the sentence I've quoted above.

If Dumbledore were still alive, as we now know he is not, wouldn't that be even better for 'Snape is Good' believers? Then the argument that Snape killed Dumbledore so he must be evil, which is the strongest argument that Snape is bad by any reckoning I can imagine, would be nullified. There'd be almost no reason to even suspect Snape might be bad if he had only made it appear that he killed Dumbledore.

SusanBones

August 4th, 2006, 1:04 am

Scantra

August 4th, 2006, 1:17 am

Actually, the fact that Dumbledore is dead makes it better for the Snape is bad group. Either Snape killed him, or the potion in the basin did, or some unknown. It is wrong to kill someone, even if they ask you to do it. So, unless the potion or the unknown killed Dumbledore, Snape is bad.
I really do think that Snape killed DD but I also think DD asked him to so that Snape could save Draco.
I mean if it was poison in that potion that Harry gave to DD then Harry would be bad to but I don't see anyone calling him evil.

arithmancer

August 4th, 2006, 1:41 am

It is wrong to kill someone, even if they ask you to do it. So, unless the potion or the unknown killed Dumbledore, Snape is bad.

A point on which reasonable people can, and do, disagree.

By the way, since you seem to belong to the group that thinks it is not OK to kill someone even if they have very good reasons for asking you to do it:

If Dumbledore died of the potion, that makes Harry bad.

muggl3tt3

August 4th, 2006, 1:50 am

I was totally against the Dumbledore is alive theory (and am glad that is finally put to rest) but I'm kinda for the Snape is good theory. He may not be 100% good, but I don't think he is evil either. I think he and Dumbledore had already planned his death for quite some time. I think that Snape killed Dumbleore and it was not some imposter who drank polyjuice potin with Snape's toenail in it (sarcasm). But I don't think that it was a surprise to Dumbledore. The main mystery now, is what did Snape and Dumbledore discuss? Why were they arguing? (Hagrid mentioned overhearing them) and is Snape really good ?

Conidia

August 4th, 2006, 1:57 am

By Zgirnius
A point on which reasonable people can, and do, disagree.

By the way, since you seem to belong to the group that thinks it is not OK to kill someone even if they have very good reasons for asking you to do it:

If Dumbledore died of the potion, that makes Harry bad.

Not to mention that Snape killing Dumbledore had another effect: Dumbledore certainly would have saved Snape's life, and he might have saved Draco's life.

Conidia

SusanBones

August 4th, 2006, 3:41 am

A point on which reasonable people can, and do, disagree.

By the way, since you seem to belong to the group that thinks it is not OK to kill someone even if they have very good reasons for asking you to do it:
JK Rowling has created a Wizarding World that includes a Judicial system, the Wizongamot, and a government, called the Minstry of Magic. She has also shown us on numerous occassions what happens when someone breaks a law, like Harry did, or commits murder, like they thought Sirius had. Dumbledore was the Chief Warlock. He knows that anyone who commits murder would be tried and sent to Azkaban. Can you imagine how the wizarding population would feel about Snape killing Dumbledore? I am sure that Dumbledore knew that if he asked Snape to kill him, then Snape would be sent to Azkaban. So the reason that I do not think that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him is because JK Rowling has shown us that Dumbledore would be sentencing Snape to Azkaban if he did.
Not to mention that Snape killing Dumbledore had another effect: Dumbledore certainly would have saved Snape's life, and he might have saved Draco's life.

ConidiaDumbledore would have saved his life, a life he would serve in prison. It doesn't sound like a nice thing to do to your trusted spy.

How can Dumbledore possibly think that by dying he would prevent Voldemort or even a member of the Order of the Phoenix, or another Death Eater, from killing Draco? He has absolutely no control over what those people would do and how they would react to Draco's failed murder attempt.

lunchbox

August 4th, 2006, 5:45 am

If it could be proven that Snape acted on Dumbledore's orders i.e. a pensieve memory, I don't think that he would be sent to Azkaban. The MoM would trust DD's judgement now after it was show that he had been right all along about basically everything.

One of my biggest reasons for thinking Snape is good (even though I don't like him, good or bad) is something I didn't catch my first 2 times through HBP. I realized it when i was listening to the audiobook, but when Harry is going to one of his history lessions w/ Dumbledore he overhears a convo b/t Snape & Dumbledore. Snape says he doesnt want to do it anymore, and I think he's talking about killing Dumbledore.

Dumbledore would rather have Snape kill him on his own orders then Draco doing it to prove himself to Voldemort ( or really to Lucius b/c Draco is a typical case of trying to get his dad to really love him).

arithmancer

August 4th, 2006, 6:19 am

Dumbledore would have saved his life, a life he would serve in prison. It doesn't sound like a nice thing to do to your trusted spy.
No, it is not. Of course, he would not have been forcing Snape to do it. His last words were phrased as a request. It was Snape's choice as well. And, if Dumbledore did ask him, what you are saying is that Snape decided not to take the easy way out.

How can Dumbledore possibly think that by dying he would prevent Voldemort or even a member of the Order of the Phoenix, or another Death Eater, from killing Draco? He has absolutely no control over what those people would do and how they would react to Draco's failed murder attempt.
Because Snape is also alive.

And there is also the question of whether there was a better option available. If Dumbledore was in danger of death due to the potion, he might not have done it because it was a guaranteed way to save Draco, but because it was the only way there was a chance.

SinLooWho

August 4th, 2006, 7:26 am

How can Dumbledore possibly think that by dying he would prevent Voldemort or even a member of the Order of the Phoenix, or another Death Eater, from killing Draco? He has absolutely no control over what those people would do and how they would react to Draco's failed murder attempt.

I think people, including myself, have the feeling or are going under the assumption that as long as the order was carried out, then Draco's task was accomplished and therefore Voldemort will not punish him. As far as people saying that Dumbledore "Saved" Draco, I think they are speaking more about his soul...becoming evil...all of that, since as of yet (as far as we know) Draco has never murdered anyone.

Tane

August 4th, 2006, 7:57 am

I think people, including myself, have the feeling or are going under the assumption that as long as the order was carried out, then Draco's task was accomplished and therefore Voldemort will not punish him. As far as people saying that Dumbledore "Saved" Draco, I think they are speaking more about his soul...becoming evil...all of that, since as of yet (as far as we know) Draco has never murdered anyone.This puts a whole new slant of the put a stopper to death because his put a stopper to Draco's death and that statement was to the students. I also think Snape's still under Narcissa's contracted vow due to the second part where she asks Severus to protect Draco to the best of his ability.

Notice how Severus is the first one to tell Draco to run after he kills Dumbledore and how he soon follows, stands back and waits for Draco to apparate. Severus is still protecting Draco there, he is being his rear gaurd because he might be still under section two of the vow.

Death eaters do not cover each others backs normally. With this group of wizards it is more your on your own. So the fact that Severus is coving both Draco and Harry's back suggests he might not be a death eater but more working for the order.

SusanBones

August 4th, 2006, 1:05 pm

No, it is not. Of course, he would not have been forcing Snape to do it. His last words were phrased as a request. It was Snape's choice as well. And, if Dumbledore did ask him, what you are saying is that Snape decided not to take the easy way out.You have picked up on one of the core reasons why I think Dumbledore did not ask Snape to murder him. At the end of GoF, Dumbledore tells the students that there may come a time when you may have to choose between what is right and what is easy. Dumbledore had asked Snape to be a spy for him. Dumbledore trusted Snape and defended him countless times. Dumbledore knew that Snape would be in great danger if Voldemort found out that he was working for Dumbledore. But the "cause" was worth it. Voldemort had to be destroyed. Spies by definition are risking their lives to accomplish this.

When Snape was asked to make an unbreakable vow to kill Dumbledore, he was either signing his own death warrant if he refused, or signing Dumbledore's death warrant. There may have been a chance for him to explain his way out of taking the vow. He could have said something like taking the vow would make Voldemort angry and go against his orders. But a person who is asked to kill another in order to survive is just as cowardly as Wormtail was when he turned in the Potters. Sirius told Wormtail in PoA that he should have died before turning in the Potters. And I think Snape should have died rather than kill Dumbledore.

So, yes, you hit the nail on the head. Snape did what was easy rather than what was right.

Idabomb333

August 4th, 2006, 5:14 pm

So, yes, you hit the nail on the head. Snape did what was easy rather than what was right.
Assuming he's on the side of the Order, why would it have been easy to kill Dumbledore? If he really is a good guy, in Dumbledore's line of thinking, wouldn't he believe like Dumbledore does that it's better to die than to rip your soul by murdering?

I think Dumbledore and Snape both did what they had to do to save Draco. Draco was not going to kill Dumbledore. By killing Dumbledore, Snape saved Draco from Voldemort.

Also, as for Dumbledore condemning Snape to Azkaban, there are exceptions to the rule that using AK means you go to Azkaban for life. For example, aurors were allowed to use unforgivables on Death Eaters. I don't think this is how Harry will defeat Voldemort, but if he were to use AK to kill Voldemort, there's no way the Ministry would send him to Azkaban. Similarly, if the Ministry discovers that Snape killed Dumbledore to save Draco and work towards Voldemort's final destruction, they'll let him off.

That is, assuming Snape doesn't die anyway.

Scantra

August 4th, 2006, 5:33 pm

You have picked up on one of the core reasons why I think Dumbledore did not ask Snape to murder him. At the end of GoF, Dumbledore tells the students that there may come a time when you may have to choose between what is right and what is easy. Dumbledore had asked Snape to be a spy for him. Dumbledore trusted Snape and defended him countless times. Dumbledore knew that Snape would be in great danger if Voldemort found out that he was working for Dumbledore. But the "cause" was worth it. Voldemort had to be destroyed. Spies by definition are risking their lives to accomplish this.

When Snape was asked to make an unbreakable vow to kill Dumbledore, he was either signing his own death warrant if he refused, or signing Dumbledore's death warrant. There may have been a chance for him to explain his way out of taking the vow. He could have said something like taking the vow would make Voldemort angry and go against his orders. But a person who is asked to kill another in order to survive is just as cowardly as Wormtail was when he turned in the Potters. Sirius told Wormtail in PoA that he should have died before turning in the Potters. And I think Snape should have died rather than kill Dumbledore.

So, yes, you hit the nail on the head. Snape did what was easy rather than what was right.
Snape did what he had to do. He took the UV not to protect himself but to protect the lives of hundreds of others, you see without Snape being a spy Dumbledore would not have known very many things on what Voldy was doing and Harry may have died in the fifth book, without Snape being a spy Harry could not have any help from the inside which he so obviously needs. If he had not taken the UV then he could have wormed himself out of trouble with Voldy and he would not have to die, but he would not be trusted either and would be in no position to help Harry defeat Voldy. If he took the UV the whole wizerding world would be screaming for his death and would more then likely die, and even knowing this he took the UV, singed his own death so to speak in order to save Harry, Draco’s and so many others lives.

SusanBones

August 4th, 2006, 6:43 pm

Assuming he's on the side of the Order, why would it have been easy to kill Dumbledore? If he really is a good guy, in Dumbledore's line of thinking, wouldn't he believe like Dumbledore does that it's better to die than to rip your soul by murdering?I am sorry I didn't make this clearer in my response to someone else. My opinion is that Snape did what was easy, which was vowing to kill Dumbledore, rather what was right, and what is right, in my opinion, is to refuse to kill a person, refuse to become a murderer.

So, if I am reading the above quote properly, then you and I both agree that it is better to die than to commit murder.

Also, as for Dumbledore condemning Snape to Azkaban, there are exceptions to the rule that using AK means you go to Azkaban for life. For example, aurors were allowed to use unforgivables on Death Eaters. I don't think this is how Harry will defeat Voldemort, but if he were to use AK to kill Voldemort, there's no way the Ministry would send him to Azkaban. Similarly, if the Ministry discovers that Snape killed Dumbledore to save Draco and work towards Voldemort's final destruction, they'll let him off.This is very true. There are times when a person would not be sent to Azkaban. Self-defense would be one, defending another would be one, and a Ministry authorized person, such as an auror, killing a death eater would be the other. The problem is, none of these conditions were met. Plus, Snape used to be a Death Eater. It will automatically be assumed that he is still one. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then its most likely a duck. And Snape looks pretty guilty.

And I am not sure that the Ministry would be willing to forgive Snape for killing Dumbledore in order to save a Death Eater, which Draco has become, from Voldemort. After all, Draco is now an accessory to the crime, since he was the one who disarmed Dumbledore and let the Death Eaters into the castle.

Idabomb333

August 4th, 2006, 6:58 pm

I am sorry I didn't make this clearer in my response to someone else. My opinion is that Snape did what was easy, which was vowing to kill Dumbledore, rather what was right, and what is right, in my opinion, is to refuse to kill a person, refuse to become a murderer.

So, if I am reading the above quote properly, then you and I both agree that it is better to die than to commit murder.
I think we agree on several points. But here's where I think there's a disconnect between you and pretty much everyone else.

If it was just a matter of (Snape dies) vs (Snape kills Dumbledore) without any other information, then Snape should choose to die, and I think he would.

If you throw in saving Draco and Dumbledore ordering Snape to protect Draco even if it means killing Dumbledore, then I think that's very different. I think it's at least morally murky.

I don't know how to answer this question personally because I'm neither married nor a parent, but imagine there's a lunatic (Voldemort) who invaded the home (Hogwarts) of a family. The lunatic says he's going to kill the son (Draco) unless the mother (Snape) kills the father (Dumbledore). What should the mother do? That's a tough situation, especially if the father has previously told the mother that he would rather die than see their son die. That's essentially the situation that Snape is in absent the vow. If he knows that he would kill Dumbledore to save Draco, then he might as well make the vow, right? And then it becomes even tougher to say the mother should let the son die when you throw in the idea of another lunatic (Bellatrix/the vow) who has previously said she'll kill the mother unless the mother saves the son.

I think it's reasonable for people to say that the mother should kill the father. It's a disgusting situation and there's really no possible outcome that we could consider "good." Whatever Snape did, it would have very bad consequences. Isn't it possible he's a good guy and decided the lesser of two evils was to kill the old man who looks like he's dying anyway?

SusanBones

August 4th, 2006, 7:08 pm

Snape did what he had to do. He took the UV not to protect himself but to protect the lives of hundreds of others, you see without Snape being a spy Dumbledore would not have known very many things on what Voldy was doing and Harry may have died in the fifth book, without Snape being a spy Harry could not have any help from the inside which he so obviously needs. This assumes that Snape was the only spy that the good guys had. But I think there were other spies out there. It would be a very poor technical move to depend on only one spy. If he had not taken the UV then he could have wormed himself out of trouble with Voldy and he would not have to die, but he would not be trusted either and would be in no position to help Harry defeat Voldy. If he had refused to take the vow and was able to worm himself out of trouble with Voldy, he would be even more trusted by the good guys than he was before, because that is proof that he would never kill Dumbledore or anyone else, to save his own hide.If he took the UV the whole wizerding world would be screaming for his death and would more then likely die, and even knowing this he took the UV, singed his own death so to speak in order to save Harry, Draco’s and so many others lives.And he took the vow, the whole wizarding world is screaming for his death and more will die because Dumbledore is now dead.

I don't know how to answer this question personally because I'm neither married nor a parent, but imagine there's a lunatic (Voldemort) who invaded the home (Hogwarts) of a family. The lunatic says he's going to kill the son (Draco) unless the mother (Snape) kills the father (Dumbledore). What should the mother do? That's a tough situation, especially if the father has previously told the mother that he would rather die than see their son die. That's essentially the situation that Snape is in absent the vow. If he knows that he would kill Dumbledore to save Draco, then he might as well make the vow, right? And then it becomes even tougher to say the mother should let the son die when you throw in the idea of another lunatic (Bellatrix/the vow) who has previously said she'll kill the mother unless the mother saves the son.

I think it's reasonable for people to say that the mother should kill the father. It's a disgusting situation and there's really no possible outcome that we could consider "good." Whatever Snape did, it would have very bad consequences. Isn't it possible he's a good guy and decided the lesser of two evils was to kill the old man who looks like he's dying anyway?This is so very funny that you thought up this analogy, because I had been thinking this last night. The moral question becomes, it is alright to kill person A if it means you save the life of person B. Have you ever heard of the movie, "Sophie's Choice"? It is about a mother in a Nazi concentration camp who has two children and the guard tells her to pick one child to live and one child to die. The whole movie deals with the consequence of her choosing one child over another. This moral question has been debated and argued for ages. Is it okay to kill person A if that allows person B to live? And your whole view over what Snape did is predicated on how you answer this question. Was it okay for Snape to kill Dumbledore in order to save Draco?

And my answer is no, it was not alright. And that is because Snape was not morally responsible for Voldemort's actions.

TheForce

August 4th, 2006, 7:24 pm

I think we agree on several points. But here's where I think there's a disconnect between you and pretty much everyone else.

If it was just a matter of (Snape dies) vs (Snape kills Dumbledore) without any other information, then Snape should choose to die, and I think he would.

If you throw in saving Draco and Dumbledore ordering Snape to protect Draco even if it means killing Dumbledore, then I think that's very different. I think it's at least morally murky.

IdaBomb333 you're analogy was hilarious :lol:
You're right though, the morality of the whole thing is very murky because death is involved and a child's innocence is at stake. Remember the lunatic has ordered the son to kill the father otherwise he gets it nasty. So the father asks the mother to kill him so that the son is saved. Throw in the other complications (Vow etc.) and you'll realise that morality was upheld to the best possible heights in the circumstances.
In the Dark times of Voldemort's return to power it is morality that takes a backseat, doesn't it?
Only a "crackpot old fool" but a "great man" nevertheless would have chosen to uphold morality by staking his life.

Idabomb333

August 4th, 2006, 8:38 pm

This assumes that Snape was the only spy that the good guys had. But I think there were other spies out there. It would be a very poor technical move to depend on only one spy. If he had refused to take the vow and was able to worm himself out of trouble with Voldy, he would be even more trusted by the good guys than he was before, because that is proof that he would never kill Dumbledore or anyone else, to save his own hide.And he took the vow, the whole wizarding world is screaming for his death and more will die because Dumbledore is now dead.

This is so very funny that you thought up this analogy, because I had been thinking this last night. The moral question becomes, it is alright to kill person A if it means you save the life of person B. Have you ever heard of the movie, "Sophie's Choice"? It is about a mother in a Nazi concentration camp who has two children and the guard tells her to pick one child to live and one child to die. The whole movie deals with the consequence of her choosing one child over another. This moral question has been debated and argued for ages. Is it okay to kill person A if that allows person B to live? And your whole view over what Snape did is predicated on how you answer this question. Was it okay for Snape to kill Dumbledore in order to save Draco?

And my answer is no, it was not alright. And that is because Snape was not morally responsible for Voldemort's actions.
I actually kind of tend to agree that it's not ok to kill person A to save person B from someone else, but I'm not completely sure.

In any case, though, it is understandable that other people (including JKR?) would think that it is ok? Isn't it possible that even if Snape made the objectively wrong decision, he did it with the right intentions, because he's good?

One other piece to consider is there's a very good chance that if Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, someone else would have. If we assume one of the other Death Eaters was going to kill Dumbledore, then you're choosing between these two sets of consequences:

1) Dumbledore dies, Draco dies, Snape dies.
2) Dumbledore dies, Draco lives, Snape lives as a murderer.

Throw in that a living, good Snape can be very useful to Harry in defeating Voldemort and saving a lot more lives, and I think it's pretty easy to see how someone could say option 2 is the way to go.

Also, you keep mentioning that the whole wizard world wants Snape's head now for killing Dumbledore. Well yes, but assuming he's really good, once Voldemort is defeated, he'll probably be able to prove he contributed to Voldemort's fall. I think a lot of people would forgive him.

An interesting point, though, is whether HARRY will ever be able to forgive him. I tend to think no, with the possible exception that he might forgive Snape if Snape sacrifices himself to save Harry/defeat Voldemort. And that's the essence of why I think Snape will probably die.

TheForce

August 4th, 2006, 8:52 pm

I actually kind of tend to agree that it's not ok to kill person A to save person B from someone else, but I'm not completely sure.

In any case, though, it is understandable that other people (including JKR?) would think that it is ok? Isn't it possible that even if Snape made the objectively wrong decision, he did it with the right intentions, because he's good?

One other piece to consider is there's a very good chance that if Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, someone else would have. If we assume one of the other Death Eaters was going to kill Dumbledore, then you're choosing between these two sets of consequences:

1) Dumbledore dies, Draco dies, Snape dies.
2) Dumbledore dies, Draco lives, Snape lives as a murderer.

Throw in that a living, good Snape can be very useful to Harry in defeating Voldemort and saving a lot more lives, and I think it's pretty easy to see how someone could say option 2 is the way to go.

Exactly! "An admirably succinct and accurate summary" in my opinion. :)
In the how/why Dumbledore had to die thread I've been trying to say this with the further addition that Harry too would have seen it this way had he not been predisposed to think of Snape as evil. Don't you think so too?
After all he had borne witness to all that Dumbledore had to say to Malfoy. Harry had had all the clues. Surely he could have (if he wanted to) gathered that Snape may not be such a cold blooded traitor after all.

Scantra

August 4th, 2006, 9:09 pm

This assumes that Snape was the only spy that the good guys had. But I think there were other spies out there. It would be a very poor technical move to depend on only one spy.

No, I'm sure there were more, we know Lupin was one; I'm saying that Snape was the only spy who was close enough to Voldy to do any real critical spying.

If he had refused to take the vow and was able to worm himself out of trouble with Voldy, he would be even more trusted by the good guys than he was before, because that is proof that he would never kill Dumbledore or anyone else, to save his own hide.

But what good would that do? He would be risking his life for nothing. His job is to be a spy and collect as much info as he can any way that he can, it is not his job to prove to us that he is a good guy, and how is he saving his own hide? the whole wizerding world is after him he is the second most wanted man next to Voldy and will probably die either at the hands of Voldy, Harry, DE or and Auror. Saving his hide? Dug up his own grave sounds more like it.

And he took the vow, the whole wizarding world is screaming for his death and more will die because Dumbledore is now dead.

Not necessarily Dumbledore would have to die in the end he was getting old and weaker and he knew it I think he knew he would die. So it wouldn’t really have changed anything.

But anyway this shouldn't even be about Snape, it should be about Dumbledore and Draco because lets imagine for a second that Snape had not taken the UV and everything else was the same. It would not have changed anything; Dumbledore would have still had to die either at the hands of one of the 4 DE or at the hands of Draco, and if he did the good side would have gotten nothing good out of it at least since he died at the hands of Snape, Snape is now in a very good position to help Harry from the inside, so that Harry can beat Voldy once and for all.

SusanBones

August 5th, 2006, 1:56 am

But anyway this shouldn't even be about Snape, it should be about Dumbledore and Draco because lets imagine for a second that Snape had not taken the UV and everything else was the same. It would not have changed anything; Dumbledore would have still had to die either at the hands of one of the 4 DE or at the hands of Draco, and if he did the good side would have gotten nothing good out of it at least since he died at the hands of Snape, Snape is now in a very good position to help Harry from the inside, so that Harry can beat Voldy once and for all.You have brought up an excellent point that I would like to think about. Let's say Snape didn't take the vow. Here is the order of events in this case (let me know what you think):
1. all of Draco's actions are the same, the necklace, the poisen mead, the Death Eaters storming the castle
2. Dumbledore returns from the cave and lands on the Tower because he saw the Dark Mark in the sky, Draco runs up the stairs and disarms a weakened Dumbledore
3. Dumbledore tries to talk Draco into agreeing to go into hiding so Voldemort doesn't kill him
4. Death Eaters arrive, harrass Dumbledore and encourage Draco to kill him
5. Snape is warned by Flitwick and rushes out of his office

Okay, all the above is probably still going to happen. Now, here is what I am not sure of:

a. would Dumbledore still "freeze" Harry? Did he freeze Harry because of the vow, or just to keep him out of harm's way if Death Eaters were storming up the stairs, since he knew he was too weak to protect Harry?

b. would a trustworthy Snape who hadn't taken a vow, still rush up the Tower steps, or would he have joined in the fight down below? Let's assume he would still have run up the stairs.

c. Snape sees Draco, who he knows plans to kill Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders. He sees that Dumbledore is disarmed and probably notices that Dumbledore is sick or weak or whatever. He sees two broomsticks and may even conclude that Harry is up there under his Invisibility cloak, but he would not know that Harry was frozen, since he couldn't see under the cloak. He also sees Fenrir and the other two Death Eaters standing there, ready to kill Dumbledore if Draco doesn't.

What does Snape do now?

Killing Dumbledore would mean that he is clearly in the Death Eaters camp. Voldemort and the others will trust him. But the good guys will now be after him.

He could start fighting the Death Eaters and Fenrir. He is a pretty good fighter and might be able to succeed, especially if he could somehow get a wand to Dumbledore, maybe Draco's wand. He could call for help and the good guys would run to help save Dumbledore.

Fighting the Death Eaters may not save Dumbledore, but maybe it would. A chance of living is better than a guaranteed death.

I actually kind of tend to agree that it's not ok to kill person A to save person B from someone else, but I'm not completely sure.

In any case, though, it is understandable that other people (including JKR?) would think that it is ok? Isn't it possible that even if Snape made the objectively wrong decision, he did it with the right intentions, because he's good?Well, it does seem as if a lot more people agree with you, that is was okay for Snape to kill Dumbledore because he had a good reason, than with me, that it was not okay to kill Dumbledore for any reason. I guess I'll go back to avoiding the Snape is good threads. But I really hope that JK Rowling has the same opinion as I do, that it is not okay for person A to kill person B so that person C won't kill person D. After all, in PoA she has the part in the Shrieking Shack where Wormtail is pleading for understanding and says he had to betray the Potters, or else Voldemort would have killed him. And Sirius shouts that he should have died rather than betray his friends. If we look at what she wrote, that Sirius would have died rather than betray his friends, than wouldn't she have written that Snape should have died rather than betray Dumbldore?

Scantra

August 5th, 2006, 2:49 am

You have brought up an excellent point that I would like to think about. Let's say Snape didn't take the vow. Here is the order of events in this case (let me know what you think):
1. all of Draco's actions are the same, the necklace, the poisen mead, the Death Eaters storming the castle
2. Dumbledore returns from the cave and lands on the Tower because he saw the Dark Mark in the sky, Draco runs up the stairs and disarms a weakened Dumbledore
3. Dumbledore tries to talk Draco into agreeing to go into hiding so Voldemort doesn't kill him
4. Death Eaters arrive, harrass Dumbledore and encourage Draco to kill him
5. Snape is warned by Flitwick and rushes out of his office

Okay, all the above is probably still going to happen. Now, here is what I am not sure of:

a. would Dumbledore still "freeze" Harry? Did he freeze Harry because of the vow, or just to keep him out of harm's way if Death Eaters were storming up the stairs, since he knew he was too weak to protect Harry?

b. would a trustworthy Snape who hadn't taken a vow, still rush up the Tower steps, or would he have joined in the fight down below? Let's assume he would still have run up the stairs.

c. Snape sees Draco, who he knows plans to kill Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders. He sees that Dumbledore is disarmed and probably notices that Dumbledore is sick or weak or whatever. He sees two broomsticks and may even conclude that Harry is up there under his Invisibility cloak, but he would not know that Harry was frozen, since he couldn't see under the cloak. He also sees Fenrir and the other two Death Eaters standing there, ready to kill Dumbledore if Draco doesn't.

What does Snape do now?

Killing Dumbledore would mean that he is clearly in the Death Eaters camp. Voldemort and the others will trust him. But the good guys will now be after him.

He could start fighting the Death Eaters and Fenrir. He is a pretty good fighter and might be able to succeed, especially if he could somehow get a wand to Dumbledore, maybe Draco's wand. He could call for help and the good guys would run to help save Dumbledore.

Fighting the Death Eaters may not save Dumbledore, but maybe it would. A chance of living is better than a guaranteed death.

Interesting post now first let me begin by saying that I don't believe that Dumbledore and Snape planed the death I mean I think that Dumbledore told Snape he would have to kill him in the end but I don't believe they knew when and how it would happen so I believe that Dumbledore froze Harry to keep him out of harms way.

Secondly I don't know what Snape would have done so I can't really say but I bet he still would have gone up the stairs.

3. Okay so he's there and he sees Draco pointing his wand at Dumbledore ( he knows of the plan), he sees 4 DE plus Fenrir all staring at a Dumbledore who is slumped on the ground his wand far away looking as though he might die at any moment.

What is he to do?

He could start a fight but there are 5 DE and only one of him, he is a good wizered, but is he that good? Could Dumbledore help him? Surly not he looks min. away from death. Could the other order members help him? No, they have their own fight downstairs and they look like they are losing anyway. He could still try and beat the other DE on his own he would surly succeed, but what good would that do? Would he be able to find a cure for Dumbledore in time? Would there even be a cure? And if not what then? He would be giving up his post for nothing, there would be no one to help Harry from the inside or to miss lead Voldy. If he didn't kill Dumbledore the wizerding world would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, on the other hand if he did Kill Dumbledore he would have nothing to gain and would probably lose everything. What should he do?
(cheesy I know)

"Seveurs....please"

He would have to.

"Avada Kedavra!"

SusanBones

August 5th, 2006, 3:14 am

He could start a fight but there are 5 DE and only one of him, he is a good wizered, but is he that good? Could Dumbledore help him? Surly not he looks min. away from death. Could the other order members help him? No, they have their own fight downstairs and they look like they are losing anyway. He could still try and beat the other DE on his own he would surly succeed, but what good would that do? Would he be able to find a cure for Dumbledore in time? Would there even be a cure? And if not what then? He would be giving up his post for nothing, there would be no one to help Harry from the inside or to miss lead Voldy. If he didn't kill Dumbledore the wizerding world would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, on the other hand if he did Kill Dumbledore he would have nothing to gain and would probably lose everything. What should he do?
(cheesy I know)

I agree that whether Snape is good or bad, whatever motives he may have had, this does look like a no-win situation. Snape knows that his chances to defeat those Death Eaters are slim. And if he does try to fight him, his chances are slim that he will live. I have to agree with you there. This is what makes it so hard. Why in the world did JK Rowling create this impossible situation? Why did she make it look as if no matter what Snape did, he was screwed (can you say that word here?).

Scantra

August 5th, 2006, 3:22 am

I agree that whether Snape is good or bad, whatever motives he may have had, this does look like a no-win situation. Snape knows that his chances to defeat those Death Eaters are slim. And if he does try to fight him, his chances are slim that he will live. I have to agree with you there. This is what makes it so hard. Why in the world did JK Rowling create this impossible situation? Why did she make it look as if no matter what Snape did, he was screwed (can you say that word here?).

I don't know I think you can.....

Anyway yeah I agree they always seem to be no-win situations; I think Jo goes out of her way to make sure of this when it comes to Snape.

( I really wish I knew for sure :upset: :p )

Fury

August 5th, 2006, 1:01 pm

Others might have seen this... but I found something at the hindustan times website... I bolded two parts

J K Rowling leaked out plenty of information on her current project – the seventh and last instalment of the Harry Potter series – sending fans of the boy-wizard into a tizzy.

Six years after her last foray into the United States, J K Rowling teamed up with fellow cult writers Stephen King and John Irving for two benefit concerts in New York, on August 2, 2006. The three authors – Rowling of the Harry Potter novels, Stephen King of Carrie, The Shawshank Redemption and the Dark Tower series, and John Irving of Garp and The Cider House Rules – read out portions of their works at "An Evening with Harry, Carrie and Garp".

With incomparable comperes such as Whoopi Goldberg, Kathy Bates and Jon Stewart, the show commenced with King reading out the gross yet hilarious scene of the revenge of Lard *** Hogan from Different Seasons. John Irving’s reading was preceded by background information of A Prayer for Owen Meeney, after which he read out the portion where children were being selected for enacting a nativity scene at church. J K Rowling followed – to much acclaim – with a reading from her best-selling sixth part of the Harry Potter series – Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.

Ten pages later, Rowling was bombarded with questions not just from the audience, but from her fellow writers as well.

Some of the more tantalising tid-bits she let fall are that although Albus Dumbledore – the headmaster of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry – was murdered in Half-Blood Prince, he would still have an important role in the final book, and furthermore, his killer Severus Snape (whose role is assayed by Alan Rickman in the Harry Potter films) is actually a good character.

The latter bit, which had been a topic of much debate and speculation among Potter fans, was first voiced at the concert by author Salman Rushdie, who offered his theory that Snape and Dumbledore were in cahoots (over the latter’s murder) and that Dumbledore’s death was a hoax.

“In my opinion, Snape is good”, he declared.

Rowling’s answer: “And your opinion is right, but I feel I need to make one thing clear about Dumbledore: he is dead.”

Other items the usually-reticent author let fall were that Harry’s hateful aunt Petunia Dursley would have a very important part in the final book, and heavily implied that Harry and his two friends Ron and Hermione would survive in the book, whose title Rowling is still thinking up.

Rowling also said – in response to Stephen King’s question whether Harry Potter’s rival Draco Malfoy would be redeemed – that all her characters, barring the villain Lord Voldemort, “appear redeemable” and that Harry firmly believed that Draco Malfoy was not evil. This may or may not point to her claim earlier this year that while writing the book, one of her characters had been redeemed whom she hadn’t thought of redeeming earlier.

Later on, at a meeting with fans, Rowling also said that the final book would explain the deep connection between a wizard and his wand.

The concert was organised to benefit two non-profit organisations: The Haven Foundation, which helps performing artists whose accidents or illnesses have left them uninsured and unable to work, and Doctors Without Borders, a humanitarian group which delivers emergency aid in more than 70 countries.

Source: http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1760630,00110004.htm

Now, according to this, she revealed that Snape IS good... What I am wondering is why she would reveal that? Or did this newssite make a mistake?

gertiekeddle

August 5th, 2006, 1:22 pm

Source: http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1760630,00110004.htm

Now, according to this, she revealed that Snape IS good... What I am wondering is why she would reveal that? Or did this newssite make a mistake?:wow: I just can assume the newspaper made a mistake - or JK made one. (Did she maybe mention the title, too? :lol:) I mean, I believe for several reasons that he's 'good' or at least did all in Dumbledore's order, is one of the biggest protectors of Harry etc. But I can't see JK telling us, if we're right before 7 is published. Anyway... a god quote. :D

Fury

August 5th, 2006, 1:45 pm

:wow: I just can assume the newspaper made a mistake - or JK made one. (Did she maybe mention the title, too? :lol:) I mean, I believe for several reasons that he's 'good' or at least did all in Dumbledore's order, is one of the biggest protectors of Harry etc. But I can't see JK telling us, if we're right before 7 is published. Anyway... a god quote. :D

Well, most of what was in the article has been in other articles... Mugglenet even said most of the "I think Snape is good" quote from that guy. But left out the word Snape for some reason. It just baffles me that JK Rowling revealed this already when it was one of the biggest discussions having to do with book 7.

Yes, she did reveal Dumbledore is dead (and I even rejoiced at that because I was right) but why reveal that Snape is good already? Is there a reason to it... or is it a mistake?

Edit:
And I must have misread... but I thought Mugglenet said that it was a kid or a fan who had said told JK Rowling that they think Snape is good...

Scarlet Tears

August 5th, 2006, 11:17 pm

Going on gut instinct, I would have to say that the newspaper probably made a mistake. I just can't imagine Rowling revealing something so controversial and crucial to the suspense in the seventh book.

On Mugglenet's main page, it says this:

"Author Salman Rushdie, along with his son, came to ask, after a detailed theory, if Snape is good or bad. Jo replied that "your opinion was correct." Rushdie's opinion, unfortunately, was hard to follow."

So it is entirely possible that the newspaper misinterpreted or oversimplified Rushdie's question. I checked Quick Quotes Quill and Madame Scoop's, but neither of them had the specific quote.

Black's Flight

August 6th, 2006, 3:23 am

I had been wondering about that too. I don't think JK would reveal one of the major plot points in book 7. I wonder if the exact quote is anywhere?

daisy5

August 6th, 2006, 4:25 am

As far as people saying that Dumbledore "Saved" Draco, I think they are speaking more about his soul...becoming evil...all of that, since as of yet (as far as we know) Draco has never murdered anyone.
Well, that's what I mean. Draco hasn't killed anyone. This mean that he hasn't reached the point of no return. He can alter the direction his life has taken, redeem himself, and become a productive member of society. Draco now knows that he isn't capable of murder and doesn't have to live with the guilt of committing such an act, or the belief that he is capable of it.

I guess I'll go back to avoiding the Snape is good threads. But I really hope that JK Rowling has the same opinion as I do, that it is not okay for person A to kill person B so that person C won't kill person D. After all, in PoA she has the part in the Shrieking Shack where Wormtail is pleading for understanding and says he had to betray the Potters, or else Voldemort would have killed him. And Sirius shouts that he should have died rather than betray his friends. If we look at what she wrote, that Sirius would have died rather than betray his friends, than wouldn't she have written that Snape should have died rather than betray Dumbldore?
I guess it depends on how you interpret the situation. Personally, I don't think that Snape had a moral choice. He either had to kill Dumbledore or himself when he was on that tower. Either way, someone was dying that night and it was going to be because of him. Suicide or murder? Neither of these are considered moral acts. How does one choose between the lesser of two evils? By determining which decision will have the best posssible outcome. Since I think Snape achieved that to the best of his abilities, I accept what he did as "OK."

I think Pettigrew's betrayal of the Potter's is different than the situation between Dumbledore and Snape. Pettigrew became a Death Eater for the sole purpose of saving his own skin. As it stands, there is at least the possibility that Snape was thinking of others when he decided to kill Dumbledore. Snape was taking into consideration the life and emotional well being of another teenager. And if he knew, or suspected, that Harry was on the tower as well, he was acting to save, not only Harry, but the world as well.

Pettigrew also had the opportunity to ask for help. His decision to betray his best friends was not a split decision made under duress. It was an ongoing act of betrayal. At anytime, he could have asked someone for help, and he didn't. Snape didn't have the option of turning to Dumbledore and asking, out loud, what he should do. There was no one else to council him. All Snape could do was assess the situation and do what he thought was best.

I agree that whether Snape is good or bad, whatever motives he may have had, this does look like a no-win situation.
Oops. I went and wrote a big long post before reading this. Never mind what I said before.

LuvHP_001

August 6th, 2006, 6:34 am

Just want to add my two insignificant cents to this thread. The fact that JK said Dumbledore is defintely dead further makes me hate Snape and lose any hope that he is good. If we would have found out in book 7 it was just a plan made between Snape and Dumbledore to make it look like he died or something like that, I would believe he's good. But since Dumbledore is defintely dead, it just shows to me that he did it for a bad reason.

potterbuff

August 6th, 2006, 12:09 pm

Sorry if this has already been posted but with there being 67 pgs & me not being here for a while it can't hurt to post again in case someone hasn't seen it!!

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1760786,00110004.htm

There has been talk in my other HP group that the press may have misquoted/ misunderstood what Jo said, up to you to draw your own conclusions!

Khanh

August 6th, 2006, 1:35 pm

An idea just occured to me while I reread the passage of Spinner's End in book6.

SNAPE IS IN LOVE WITH NARCISSA MALFOY. And if he is in love with Narcissa he could not be passionately in love with Lily at the same time. Lily was a 'Mudblood' for him, while Narcissa was a noble 'Pure blood' from the old Black family. As one of the arguments of the " Snape's Good" supporters is Snape's in love with Lily.

I Think that Jame, Lily, Lucius, Snape, Narcissa must be about the same age, perhaps they were not in the same year, but they must have been at Hogwards at about the same time. Draco Malfoy is the same age as Harry, Lily must have been about Narcissa's age too.

This idea of Snape's in love with Narcissa suits me very much. This gives me an extra argument that SNAPE IS EVIL.

Because I am of the opinion that Snape is evil, basically evil, and will remain basically evil, even if in book7 he might have to protect Harry, for some new reasons or cirsumstances. (For this I've a theory in topic 'Dumbledore's pleas', page 7)

SusanBones

August 6th, 2006, 1:42 pm

I guess it depends on how you interpret the situation. Personally, I don't think that Snape had a moral choice. He either had to kill Dumbledore or himself when he was on that tower. Either way, someone was dying that night and it was going to be because of him. Suicide or murder? Neither of these are considered moral acts. How does one choose between the lesser of two evils? By determining which decision will have the best posssible outcome. Since I think Snape achieved that to the best of his abilities, I accept what he did as "OK."This explains why Snape killed Dumbledore on the Tower, but it does not justify the fact that he took the Unbreakable Vow in the summer before school began.

(Just for the record, I don't think it was OK for Snape to kill Dumbledore on the Tower, either).

gertiekeddle

August 6th, 2006, 1:46 pm

Hm, I actually don't get why Snape should be evil because he is/was in love with Narcissa, sorry. :)

I was actually convinced from the first moment that Dumbledore is really dead, but tend to think Snape did what he did in order of Dumbledore since first reading. For the well organized mind death is just the great next adventure. If you already thought, that it is possible that Snape and Dumbledore made a plan, LuvHP_OO1, why no longer after the confirmation of Dumbledore's death? There must have been reasons for your assumptions before (why did they make the plan? what were the reasons?), which in my opinion actually can't be gone after the confirmation. Just that Dumbledore might not have been dead, is actually no reason for the assumption that all was a plan (it would be a confirmation of this theory, but not the other way round). So it might be interesting to think, if your reasons still count. My do.

SusanBones

August 6th, 2006, 2:08 pm

This is what LadyofthePensieve had posted on the Common Room section, J"K Rowling in New York" thread. She transcribed it:This shall be Salman Rushdie´s words.

Rushdie: It has always been made plain that Snape might be an unlikable fellow, but he was essentially one of the good guys. (Massive cheering) Dumbledore himself has always vouched for him. Now we know that Snape is a villain and Dumbledore’s killed. We cannot, or don’t, want to believe this. (Cheering and laughter). Our theory is that Snape is in fact still a good guy. We propose that Dumbledore can’t really be dead. That this in fact is a ruse, cooked up between Dumbledore and Snape to put Voldemort off his guard. Harry then will have more friends than he knows when he and Voldemort do face. So, is Snape good or bad? (Massive cheering). It’s plain to see, everything follows from this. (Cheering)

Jo: Your opinion, I would say, is right. However, I see I am going to have to be more explicit and say Dumbledore is definitely dead.

Here to find: http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic =30932&st=370#

So, I find it interesting that the Hindustan Times posted the Salmon Rushdie question in such a way that they almost completely changed what Rushdie said. I also wonder why we haven't seen a transcript on Leaky Cauldron or Mugglenet yet.

ProfJS

August 6th, 2006, 5:55 pm

This is what LadyofthePensieve had posted on the Common Room section, J"K Rowling in New York" thread. She transcribed it:

So, I find it interesting that the Hindustan Times posted the Salmon Rushdie question in such a way that they almost completely changed what Rushdie said. I also wonder why we haven't seen a transcript on Leaky Cauldron or Mugglenet yet.Thanks for posting the actual transcript. I also found it hard to believe tha JKR would reveal such an important thing. From the transcript, it's clear that she in fact did not reveal anything definite, other than that Dumbledore really is dead, which she has stated before.

Rushdie's last line, "So, is Snape good or bad? (Massive cheering). It’s plain to see, everything follows from this." is what JKR is resonding to when she say's he is correct. This is still very interesting, because it does clearly indicate that Snape's role is very important.

Snape's behavior, and JKR's numerous descriptions of him make it abundantly clear that he is *not* "good" in the general sense of the term. He's mean, unfair, sadistic, and fascinated by the dark arts. I can't see any way to describe him as a 'good' character.

Whether Snape is or is not working for the 'good' side is another question. I don't have a firm opinon on that. I'm inclined to think that he's mostly working for himself, with complex motivations.

It's also interesting that JKR confirms that everyone except Voldemort is potentially redeemable. That doesn't surprise me, but I don't think she's every stated it before.

SinLooWho

August 7th, 2006, 4:34 am

After all, in PoA she has the part in the Shrieking Shack where Wormtail is pleading for understanding and says he had to betray the Potters, or else Voldemort would have killed him. And Sirius shouts that he should have died rather than betray his friends. If we look at what she wrote, that Sirius would have died rather than betray his friends, than wouldn't she have written that Snape should have died rather than betray Dumbldore?

I do not think that the two situations are comparable. I am not one to believe in murder for the sake of murder, but if infact it is true that Dumbledore was dying anyway (which many seem to think), than why not have something good come out of his death. By good, I mean that Snape's position within the fold of Voldemort's ranks is strengthened and he can there-by continue to assist with the downfall of Voldemort.

It has always been made plain that Snape might be an unlikable fellow, but he was essentially one of the good guys. (Massive cheering) Dumbledore himself has always vouched for him. Now we know that Snape is a villain and Dumbledore’s killed. We cannot, or don’t, want to believe this. (Cheering and laughter). Our theory is that Snape is in fact still a good guy. We propose that Dumbledore can’t really be dead. That this in fact is a ruse, cooked up between Dumbledore and Snape to put Voldemort off his guard. Harry then will have more friends than he knows when he and Voldemort do face. So, is Snape good or bad? (Massive cheering). It’s plain to see, everything follows from this. (Cheering)

I have to say that his overall opinion is that Snape is good. And while it does not seem logical that she would reveal anything so important, it may be possible that she has decided that the greatest majority of her fandom has already made up their mind anyway. Or...maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part:p I'm just hoping that the hint about the trio is right!!:D

SusanBones

August 7th, 2006, 3:32 pm

I do not think that the two situations are comparable. I am not one to believe in murder for the sake of murder, but if infact it is true that Dumbledore was dying anyway (which many seem to think), than why not have something good come out of his death. By good, I mean that Snape's position within the fold of Voldemort's ranks is strengthened and he can there-by continue to assist with the downfall of Voldemort.The problem with this line of reasoning, which I see a lot, is that there is no good that can come from Dumbledore's death. His death does not save Draco. Once a person becomes a Death Eater, which evidence seems to show that Draco has become, there is no out. Just like Regulus and Karkaroff, people get killed if Voldemort is displeased or if they try to leave the Death Eaters. Draco is Voldemort's man through and through. He fixed the cabinets, brought the Death Eaters into the castle and disarmed Dumbledore. He intended to kill him. He gave Katie Bell the poisen necklace, he gave Slughorn the poisen mead. Draco is one of Voldemort's men and Dumbledore's death cannot reverse what Draco has done. Draco's only hope was to have Dumbledore hide him from Voldemort.

Snape is not saved. He will be hunted down like a dog. Harry, who is actually quite a good wizard, after all, hates him as much as he hates Voldemort. I don't think Snape did anything to benefit himself at all. While I agree with you that Snape solidified his position with the Death Eaters, he made it a whole lot harder to function outside of their protective circle.

Dumbledore knew that this would be the consequence of Draco refusing to be hid. And he would have never asked Snape to become a pariah and a murderer. There is no good that came from Dumbledore's death.

Dantedanger

August 7th, 2006, 3:59 pm

Snape is not saved. He will be hunted down like a dog. Harry, who is actually quite a good wizard, after all, hates him as much as he hates Voldemort. I don't think Snape did anything to benefit himself at all.

Snape does not have to be huted down like a dog, and Harry does not hate Snape as much as Voldy. Snape did not kill Harry's parents, or Cedric, or any other number of innocent people. Snape is nasty, but has saved Harry's life and is a different kind of hate figure for Harry. Good or bad proir to the death of Dumbledore, harry hated snapes personality, but he hated whay Voldy stood for.

Grim_Reapster

August 7th, 2006, 4:15 pm

The problem with this line of reasoning, which I see a lot, is that there is no good that can come from Dumbledore's death. His death does not save Draco. Once a person becomes a Death Eater, which evidence seems to show that Draco has become, there is no out. Just like Regulus and Karkaroff, people get killed if Voldemort is displeased or if they try to leave the Death Eaters. Draco is Voldemort's man through and through. He fixed the cabinets, brought the Death Eaters into the castle and disarmed Dumbledore. He intended to kill him. He gave Katie Bell the poisen necklace, he gave Slughorn the poisen mead. Draco is one of Voldemort's men and Dumbledore's death cannot reverse what Draco has done. Draco's only hope was to have Dumbledore hide him from Voldemort.

Snape is not saved. He will be hunted down like a dog. Harry, who is actually quite a good wizard, after all, hates him as much as he hates Voldemort. I don't think Snape did anything to benefit himself at all. While I agree with you that Snape solidified his position with the Death Eaters, he made it a whole lot harder to function outside of their protective circle.

Dumbledore knew that this would be the consequence of Draco refusing to be hid. And he would have never asked Snape to become a pariah and a murderer. There is no good that came from Dumbledore's death.

By killing Dumbledore, Snape fulfilled the terms of the unbreakable vow, saving his own life. Now this may have been purely selfish on his part, unless he really is loyal to Dumbledore. Dumbledore may have ordered Snape to kill him when the time came, so that he wouldn't blow his cover. Maybe Dumbledore thought it more important for Snape to survive, so he'll be there to help Harry when the time comes. If Snape does save Harry, then, in a way, something good did come from Dumbledores' death.

As for Draco, he wasn't really trying to kill Dumbledore, or wouldn't have hesitated on the tower. Dumbledore points out to Draco that his attempts to kill him were so feeble, that he didn't believe that his heart was in it. And JKR herself said in one of her interviews that Draco wasn't going to kill Dumbledore.

Dumbledore was trying to protect Draco, and Snape, by insisting that Snape kill him, and complete the unbreakable vow. Which, by the way, the vow is still in place. Snape swore to protect Draco, but Narcissa didn't say only for that mission. I think that Snape is still bound by the vow to protect Draco, even from Voldemort. Snape is probably going to talk Voldemort out of punishing Draco. Even though Draco didn't complete the mission, he did get the Death Eaters into Hogwarts. Voldemort may be so pleased that Dumbledore is dead, that he decides to show Draco a little mercy.

SusanBones

August 7th, 2006, 4:26 pm

Snape does not have to be huted down like a dog, and Harry does not hate Snape as much as Voldy. Snape did not kill Harry's parents, or Cedric, or any other number of innocent people. Snape is nasty, but has saved Harry's life and is a different kind of hate figure for Harry. Good or bad proir to the death of Dumbledore, harry hated snapes personality, but he hated whay Voldy stood for.I agree with you that Snape's "sins" against Harry do not equal Voldemort's sins. Hate is a funny thing. I believe that all hate is not created equal. Just as there are different types of love, there are different types of hate. Emerson and Mellissa were asking JK Rowling if Snape was evil in their interview July, 2005: Here is what JK Rowling said:
JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously - Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it? Whatever I say, and obviously it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories, and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories. I love the theories.

By killing Dumbledore, Snape fulfilled the terms of the unbreakable vow, saving his own life. Now this may have been purely selfish on his part, unless he really is loyal to Dumbledore. Dumbledore may have ordered Snape to kill him when the time came, so that he wouldn't blow his cover. If you are the General of an Army, and your spy promises the enemy to kill you, would it really be okay for the General to say to his spy, "Oh, sure, kill me. I really think you should live."? I don't think that is a good way to fight a war. As for Draco, he wasn't really trying to kill Dumbledore, or wouldn't have hesitated on the tower. Let's see, there was the hexed necklace, the poison mead, the Death Eaters, the disarming; sure he couldn't fire the gun, but he sure did everything else. Anyway, I agree he would not have killed Dumbledore himself, but that doesn't take away his other crimes.

Grim_Reapster

August 7th, 2006, 5:04 pm

Let's see, there was the hexed necklace, the poison mead, the Death Eaters, the disarming; sure he couldn't fire the gun, but he sure did everything else. Anyway, I agree he would not have killed Dumbledore himself, but that doesn't take away his other crimes.

Okay, first of all, I didn't say that Draco was innocent. But Voldemort didn't really give him much choice. Either kill Dumbledore, or he dies himself, and his family. This is why he let in the Death Eaters, he was running out of time. Voldemort isn't known for his patience.

As for the necklace, and the mead, the necklace would have never got into the castle, as Filch was checking everyone for dark objects. And chances are that Slughorn would have drank the mead himself, instead of giving it to Dumbledore. I think that Draco was hoping to get caught. If he were, then he could tell Dumbledore everything, and the whole thing would be taken out of his hands. This is why Dumbledore said that his attempts were feeble, Draco wasn't really trying.

But as I said above he's definitely not innocent. He was still willing to endanger Filch, and Slughorn.

SusanBones

August 7th, 2006, 5:21 pm

Okay, first of all, I didn't say that Draco was innocent. But Voldemort didn't really give him much choice. Either kill Dumbledore, or he dies himself, and his family. This is why he let in the Death Eaters, he was running out of time. Voldemort isn't known for his patience.Draco was given the impossible choice. He had to kill Dumbledore or allow his parents and himself to be killed. In the interview with JK Rowling that Melissa and Emerson did in July of 2005, they had the following conversation about Sirius, but if you substitute Snape or Draco for the name Sirius, JK Rowling may have been giving a clue to what had intended to say about these two people who had to choose between their own deaths and the death of Dumbledore.:MA: There are a lot of intense loyalty and bravery issues that are really tied to self-sacrifice - specifically in Book 3, "You should have died rather than betray your friends." And then, there's a ton of that throughout. That's a pretty intense message to pass to, say, an eight-year-old, or a ten-year-old, who is reading the book, saying we should die for our friends.
JKR: Obviously I imagine it in the context of a very highly charged situation. God forbid - I hope that in the general run of things, an eight-year-old would not be required to die for anyone, but we're talking here about a fully grown man who was in, what I consider to be, a war situation. This was a full-fledged war situation. I think the question really is do you, as readers, believe that Sirius would have died? Because Sirius is saying that.
ES: Oh, absolutely.
MA: Yeah.
JKR: Right, well, that's what I believed. Sirius would have done it. He, with all his faults and flaws, he has this profound sense of honor, ultimately, and he would rather have died honorably, as he would see it, than live with the dishonor and shame of knowing that he sent those three people to their deaths, those three people that he loved beyond any others, because like Harry he is a displaced person without family.
You're right, it is an intense message, but I am ultimately writing about evil,She said that Sirius would rather have died honorably. What should have Draco and Snape have done?

Grim_Reapster

August 7th, 2006, 5:48 pm

She said that Sirius would rather have died honorably. What should have Draco and Snape have done?

Oh I agree that Draco has no honor, but if Snape was obeying Dumbledores' orders, then not only was he saving Dracos', and his own, life, but possibly Harrys' as well (eventually). To me it seems pretty honorable to obey an order that goes against your own judgement, if it means saving an innocent.

And Draco, despite all his faults, is still innocent. His actions did lead to Dumbledores' death, but it wasn't at his hand. When it came down to it, he couldn't kill Dumbledore. Even knowing what Voldemort would do to him. Because he's not a murderer.

I think this is why Dumbledore stunned Harry. He wanted time to talk to Draco, and show him that he still had options. If Harry weren't stunned, he would of blasted Malfoy as soon as he came through the door.

hopefulgirl86

August 7th, 2006, 5:55 pm

Grim_Reapster

August 7th, 2006, 6:08 pm

I didn't read this whole post so I'm not sure if I'm repeating anyone or not.

While I agree that Dumbledores death was planned, I do not think Snape is good. Snape isn't true to either side, he looks out for only himself. He has always been a loner wanting more power and Voldemort gave him that, but Dumbledore also gave him protection so why not help out both sides?

Personally, I think that Dumbledore gave Snape more than just protection, he gave him trust. He may have been the only one in Snapes' life to actually believe in him. And when Voldemorts' first reign ended, Dumbledore stood up for Snape, saving him from Azkaban.

Voldemort may have given him power, but would he ever have gone to bat for him the way that Dumbledore did? Snape would have to be truly heartless to not feel gratitude, and loyalty to Dumbledore.

SinLooWho

August 7th, 2006, 6:10 pm

The problem with this line of reasoning, which I see a lot, is that there is no good that can come from Dumbledore's death. His death does not save Draco. Once a person becomes a Death Eater, which evidence seems to show that Draco has become, there is no out. Just like Regulus and Karkaroff, people get killed if Voldemort is displeased or if they try to leave the Death Eaters. Draco is Voldemort's man through and through. He fixed the cabinets, brought the Death Eaters into the castle and disarmed Dumbledore. He intended to kill him. He gave Katie Bell the poisen necklace, he gave Slughorn the poisen mead. Draco is one of Voldemort's men and Dumbledore's death cannot reverse what Draco has done. Draco's only hope was to have Dumbledore hide him from Voldemort.

I think Dumbledore himself pointed out that Draco's plan was weak when he distributed these items. Like Grim_Reapster pointed out, it would have been very difficult for the necklace to have gotten into the castle. And the mead, you don't give mead to someone like Slughorn and hope that it will get any further.:lol: I don't think Draco has become a full fledged DE. I think that this entire thing was a test, not only to save his father, but to bring him into the "club"; an initiation if you will. Somewhere down deep, I do not believe that Draco wanted to kill Dumbledore. I tend to believe it is more likely that Draco is trying to live up to an image that has been bred into him from the day he was born.

I think that Draco was hoping to get caught. If he were, then he could tell Dumbledore everything, and the whole thing would be taken out of his hands. This is why Dumbledore said that his attempts were feeble, Draco wasn't really trying.

I had not really thought of this trying to get caught theory, but I must admit that it does seem quite plausable, seeing the weakness of the first few attempts.

Snape is not saved. He will be hunted down like a dog. Harry, who is actually quite a good wizard, after all, hates him as much as he hates Voldemort. I don't think Snape did anything to benefit himself at all. While I agree with you that Snape solidified his position with the Death Eaters, he made it a whole lot harder to function outside of their protective circle.

Which begs the question, How could this be a case of killing Dumbledore to save himself? It is not as though the DE's are so loyal to each other that they would sacrafice themselves to save a "brother in arms". So, in a final conflict or battle, whose side would like to be on? The side where people are of the attitude "Every man for himself" or the attitude "All for one and one for all"? I ask this because I realize that it could be argued that even if he was good for a time, but thought that killing Dumbledore would save his life, though he has to return to the dark side, it would only be a stop-gap measure. The only person he has saved himself from is Voldemort.

There is no good that came from Dumbledore's death.

And yet he is dead. So which ever side of the fence you sit on, good is going to have to be made from the situation or they are doomed to fail.

I will end by saying that I agree with you in the realm of reality completely. One should always find the alternative to killing another, even if it means great sacrafice to one's self.:tu:

Idabomb333

August 7th, 2006, 7:22 pm

If you are the General of an Army, and your spy promises the enemy to kill you, would it really be okay for the General to say to his spy, "Oh, sure, kill me. I really think you should live."? I don't think that is a good way to fight a war.
Actually, that could be brilliant strategy. You're saying that the piece with the most power, the general, needs to survive to continue the fight, but that's not a good analogy for the battle in Harry Potter. Dumbledore is the most powerful player for good and he's like a general, but he's not the key. He and Snape both know Harry is the key. Dumbledore's goal is to advance Harry's cause as much as possible. It's a lot like Ron's chess move in PS/SS, where he sacrifices himself because it's Harry who has to go on, and he protects Hermione too, which turns out to be crucial for the potion task. Dumbledore, like Ron, decides it's worth sacrificing himself because that's the only way he can get Harry past the chessboard. Snape could be like Hermione, with Dumbledore knowing that Snape will be more valuable in continuing to advance Harry than Dumbledore will.

If a "good" general told a loyal spy to kill him, and that directly led to the defeat of the enemy because the spy can be more effective, the "good" side will end up rejoicing and celebrating both the general and the spy as heroes.

The problem with this line of reasoning, which I see a lot, is that there is no good that can come from Dumbledore's death. His death does not save Draco. Once a person becomes a Death Eater, which evidence seems to show that Draco has become, there is no out. Just like Regulus and Karkaroff, people get killed if Voldemort is displeased or if they try to leave the Death Eaters. Draco is Voldemort's man through and through. He fixed the cabinets, brought the Death Eaters into the castle and disarmed Dumbledore. He intended to kill him. He gave Katie Bell the poisen necklace, he gave Slughorn the poisen mead. Draco is one of Voldemort's men and Dumbledore's death cannot reverse what Draco has done. Draco's only hope was to have Dumbledore hide him from Voldemort.
What? The whole point of the scene with just Dumbledore and Draco talking was that Dumbledore could bring Draco back to the good side. Dumbledore was saying that he understood that Draco had done what he did not because he was evil, but because he was desperate to save himself and his parents. Draco had been crying to Myrtle. He didn't want to kill Dumbledore, he did what he thought he had to until Dumbledore was able to talk some sense into him.

Dumbledore saved Draco from becoming a murderer. Snape saved Draco from being killed by Voldemort. If Draco's plan had not led to Dumbledore's death, Voldemort would have killed Draco. We're saying we think Dumbledore said something like, "Severus, you're more valuable to Harry than I am. If it comes down to it, you must kill me and do what you must to protect Harry and help him defeat Voldemort. That's especially possible now that Draco has been ordered to kill me, since Voldemort probably intends for you to do it in the end anyway. If you can save Draco by killing me, you should do it. Your value to the Order would be increased because Voldemort would trust you and you will be able to use that to do more damage to Voldemort than I will." So Snape, realizing that he had already been ordered by Dumbledore to do what he was promising Narcissa he would do, decided it was worthwhile.

With the other Death Eaters there, Dumbledore knew he would need to die to save Draco from Voldemort. Snape knew it too, so he ended it quickly, which meant all the DEs left Hogwarts and stopped hurting people (e.g. Bill).

There's no way Snape, Draco, and Dumbledore can all live through that. If Dumbledore told Snape that Snape would have to kill Dumbledore in order to save Snape and Draco, a good Snape would have resisted (as in the conversation Hagrid overheard) and hated himself for killing Dumbledore (look of disgust on his face) but would have done what he had to for what Dumbledore had told him was the greater good.

And it's also possible that Dumbledore would have died anyway, so Snape saved his own (very valuable to the good side) life and arguably Draco's at the cost of being the one who killed Dumbledore. It's better for the Order if Snape sacrifices the health of his soul in order to defeat Voldemort than if Dumbledore, Snape, and Draco all die for being honorable and all, and then Harry loses to Voldemort because neither Snape nor Dumbledore can help him.

Snape is not saved. He will be hunted down like a dog. Harry, who is actually quite a good wizard, after all, hates him as much as he hates Voldemort. I don't think Snape did anything to benefit himself at all. While I agree with you that Snape solidified his position with the Death Eaters, he made it a whole lot harder to function outside of their protective circle.
Doesn't that make it more believable that Snape did what he did on Dumbledore's orders, to help the cause of Good? He's tearing his soul through murder and making himself maybe the second most wanted criminal in the (wizarding) world. Especially assuming Dumbledore was going to die regardless, then a good Snape was sacrificing his soul for the good of the Order and to save Draco's soul and/or Draco and his parents' lives.

If you want to argue that Snape is bad, you should be saying that what he did led to the best of the possible conditions for him. You should be saying that what he did was selfish, but it's really pretty hard to see how it could be. Even an evil Snape would probably rather not destroy the Order's trust in him, in case the Order wins in the end.

Dumbledore knew that this would be the consequence of Draco refusing to be hid. And he would have never asked Snape to become a pariah and a murderer. There is no good that came from Dumbledore's death.

Let's break it down, assuming Snape is trying to help the Order defeat Voldemort.

Case 1: Snape's convinced Dumbledore was going to die anyway.
Snape can
a) Kill Dumbledore, which hurts Snape's soul, but Dumbledore was going to die anyway, so negative consequences of Dumbledore's death are irrelevant. The Malfoys all live. The DEs hurry out of Hogwarts. Snape becomes the most trusted DE, and can be of great service to Harry.
b) Decide not to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore dies anyway. Snape dies instantly from the vow. Draco (maybe) lives because Dumbledore dies anyway, thanks to Draco's plan. The other DEs on the tower might not be merciful to Draco or protect him. The DEs, particularly Greyback, might conceivably not hurry out. At the very least, the battle at the bottom of the tower continues until Dumbledore dies. More people might get hurt, especially because (though Snape doesn't know this) the Felix is about to wear off for Ginny, Hermione, and Ron.

a) is obviously better, right?

Case 2: Snape thinks Dumbledore could have been saved.
Snape can
a) Kill Dumbledore, which hurts Snape's soul and Dumbledore's out of the picture, which hurts the good side a lot. The Malfoys all live. The DEs hurry out of Hogwarts. Snape becomes the most trusted DE and can help Harry greately.
b) Decide not to kill Dumbledore. Snape dies instantly, before he can do anything to help Dumbledore. Dumbledore may or may not be able to overpower the DEs and may or may not be able to protect Draco. The battle below probably lasts longer and might lead to more injuries or even deaths. Best case, Dumbledore beats all the DEs, figures out how to save the Malfoys, they all live, and no one in the battle below is hurt.

Here, Snape basically has to choose between his life, with a torn soul, and Dumbledore's life. Assuming Dumbledore told Snape that Snape is more valuable than Dumbledore, the choice is pretty straightforward.

I say either way, killing Dumbledore is the superior choice. We could also argue about the relatively likelihood of the two cases. I tend to think Case 1 is more likely, given that Dumbledore seemed to think that Snape was Dumbledore's only chance to survive the potion. Remember, he had previously told Harry to bring Snape and no one else to him. In other words, if Snape had decided to die, he's probably condemning Dumbledore at the same time, which is Case 1.

Also, note that Dumbledore knew about Draco's task and the vow, but didn't confront Malfoy before. He could have arranged some other way to talk to Draco without and faked Draco's death. I think he put it off as long as possible in order to protect Snape. If I'm right, he was willing to let Draco's plan to kill him continue in order to protect Snape.

I hope this makes it clearer how killing Dumbledore is consistent with Snape trying to help the Order.

As for making the vow, Snape was again in a jam. The situation on the Tower was not really predicted, though, and Dumbledore had very possibly already told Snape that if it came to it, Snape was more valuable than Dumbledore. Snape presumably thought it wouldn't come to it, just as Dumbledore appeared to think that faking Draco and Narcissa's deaths would put an end to the whole situation.

Scantra

August 7th, 2006, 7:58 pm

Actually, that could be brilliant strategy. You're saying that the piece with the most power, the general, needs to survive to continue the fight, but that's not a good analogy for the battle in Harry Potter. Dumbledore is the most powerful player for good and he's like a general, but he's not the key. He and Snape both know Harry is the key. Dumbledore's goal is to advance Harry's cause as much as possible. It's a lot like Ron's chess move in PS/SS, where he sacrifices himself because it's Harry who has to go on, and he protects Hermione too, which turns out to be crucial for the potion task. Dumbledore, like Ron, decides it's worth sacrificing himself because that's the only way he can get Harry past the chessboard. Snape could be like Hermione, with Dumbledore knowing that Snape will be more valuable in continuing to advance Harry than Dumbledore will.

If a "good" general told a loyal spy to kill him, and that directly led to the defeat of the enemy because the spy can be more effective, the "good" side will end up rejoicing and celebrating both the general and the spy as heroes.

What? The whole point of the scene with just Dumbledore and Draco talking was that Dumbledore could bring Draco back to the good side. Dumbledore was saying that he understood that Draco had done what he did not because he was evil, but because he was desperate to save himself and his parents. Draco had been crying to Myrtle. He didn't want to kill Dumbledore, he did what he thought he had to until Dumbledore was able to talk some sense into him.

Dumbledore saved Draco from becoming a murderer. Snape saved Draco from being killed by Voldemort. If Draco's plan had not led to Dumbledore's death, Voldemort would have killed Draco. We're saying we think Dumbledore said something like, "Severus, you're more valuable to Harry than I am. If it comes down to it, you must kill me and do what you must to protect Harry and help him defeat Voldemort. That's especially possible now that Draco has been ordered to kill me, since Voldemort probably intends for you to do it in the end anyway. If you can save Draco by killing me, you should do it. Your value to the Order would be increased because Voldemort would trust you and you will be able to use that to do more damage to Voldemort than I will." So Snape, realizing that he had already been ordered by Dumbledore to do what he was promising Narcissa he would do, decided it was worthwhile.

With the other Death Eaters there, Dumbledore knew he would need to die to save Draco from Voldemort. Snape knew it too, so he ended it quickly, which meant all the DEs left Hogwarts and stopped hurting people (e.g. Bill).

There's no way Snape, Draco, and Dumbledore can all live through that. If Dumbledore told Snape that Snape would have to kill Dumbledore in order to save Snape and Draco, a good Snape would have resisted (as in the conversation Hagrid overheard) and hated himself for killing Dumbledore (look of disgust on his face) but would have done what he had to for what Dumbledore had told him was the greater good.

And it's also possible that Dumbledore would have died anyway, so Snape saved his own (very valuable to the good side) life and arguably Draco's at the cost of being the one who killed Dumbledore. It's better for the Order if Snape sacrifices the health of his soul in order to defeat Voldemort than if Dumbledore, Snape, and Draco all die for being honorable and all, and then Harry loses to Voldemort because neither Snape nor Dumbledore can help him.

Doesn't that make it more believable that Snape did what he did on Dumbledore's orders, to help the cause of Good? He's tearing his soul through murder and making himself maybe the second most wanted criminal in the (wizarding) world. Especially assuming Dumbledore was going to die regardless, then a good Snape was sacrificing his soul for the good of the Order and to save Draco's soul and/or Draco and his parents' lives.

If you want to argue that Snape is bad, you should be saying that what he did led to the best of the possible conditions for him. You should be saying that what he did was selfish, but it's really pretty hard to see how it could be. Even an evil Snape would probably rather not destroy the Order's trust in him, in case the Order wins in the end.

Let's break it down, assuming Snape is trying to help the Order defeat Voldemort.

Case 1: Snape's convinced Dumbledore was going to die anyway.
Snape can
a) Kill Dumbledore, which hurts Snape's soul, but Dumbledore was going to die anyway, so negative consequences of Dumbledore's death are irrelevant. The Malfoys all live. The DEs hurry out of Hogwarts. Snape becomes the most trusted DE, and can be of great service to Harry.
b) Decide not to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore dies anyway. Snape dies instantly from the vow. Draco (maybe) lives because Dumbledore dies anyway, thanks to Draco's plan. The other DEs on the tower might not be merciful to Draco or protect him. The DEs, particularly Greyback, might conceivably not hurry out. At the very least, the battle at the bottom of the tower continues until Dumbledore dies. More people might get hurt, especially because (though Snape doesn't know this) the Felix is about to wear off for Ginny, Hermione, and Ron.

a) is obviously better, right?

Case 2: Snape thinks Dumbledore could have been saved.
Snape can
a) Kill Dumbledore, which hurts Snape's soul and Dumbledore's out of the picture, which hurts the good side a lot. The Malfoys all live. The DEs hurry out of Hogwarts. Snape becomes the most trusted DE and can help Harry greately.
b) Decide not to kill Dumbledore. Snape dies instantly, before he can do anything to help Dumbledore. Dumbledore may or may not be able to overpower the DEs and may or may not be able to protect Draco. The battle below probably lasts longer and might lead to more injuries or even deaths. Best case, Dumbledore beats all the DEs, figures out how to save the Malfoys, they all live, and no one in the battle below is hurt.

Here, Snape basically has to choose between his life, with a torn soul, and Dumbledore's life. Assuming Dumbledore told Snape that Snape is more valuable than Dumbledore, the choice is pretty straightforward.

I say either way, killing Dumbledore is the superior choice. We could also argue about the relatively likelihood of the two cases. I tend to think Case 1 is more likely, given that Dumbledore seemed to think that Snape was Dumbledore's only chance to survive the potion. Remember, he had previously told Harry to bring Snape and no one else to him. In other words, if Snape had decided to die, he's probably condemning Dumbledore at the same time, which is Case 1.

Also, note that Dumbledore knew about Draco's task and the vow, but didn't confront Malfoy before. He could have arranged some other way to talk to Draco without and faked Draco's death. I think he put it off as long as possible in order to protect Snape. If I'm right, he was willing to let Draco's plan to kill him continue in order to protect Snape.

I hope this makes it clearer how killing Dumbledore is consistent with Snape trying to help the Order.

As for making the vow, Snape was again in a jam. The situation on the Tower was not really predicted, though, and Dumbledore had very possibly already told Snape that if it came to it, Snape was more valuable than Dumbledore. Snape presumably thought it wouldn't come to it, just as Dumbledore appeared to think that faking Draco and Narcissa's deaths would put an end to the whole situation.
excellent post! :tu: my thoughts word for word! :clap:

Grim_Reapster

August 7th, 2006, 8:02 pm

As for making the vow, Snape was again in a jam. The situation on the Tower was not really predicted, though, and Dumbledore had very possibly already told Snape that if it came to it, Snape was more valuable than Dumbledore. Snape presumably thought it wouldn't come to it, just as Dumbledore appeared to think that faking Draco and Narcissa's deaths would put an end to the whole situation.

I totally agree with everything you said. This is exactly what I was trying to get at, only in greater detail. But as for Snape making the vow in the first place, I don't think he knew what he was getting himself into. When he told Narcissa that he knew what Voldemorts plan for Draco was , I think he was bluffing. He was trying to draw information out of her, by pretending to be "in the know". And the only reason that he agreed to the vow, was to quell Bellatrixs' doubts about his loyalty.

I don't think that Snape knew that Narcissa was going to add that bit at the end about him completing the mission if Draco couldn't, this is why his hand twitched at that part. He wanted to back out when he realized what she was going to say, but at that point, it was too late.

SusanBones

August 7th, 2006, 8:03 pm

Draco is now a Death Eater. JK Rowling said so in her interview with Mellisa and Emerson in July of 2005. He has now made a lifetime commitment he can't back out of. His only way out would have been for Dumbledore to hide him. Dumbledore's death would not have gotten Draco out of his membership with the Death Eaters.

And then forget about what happened on the Tower. What about what happened at Spinners End? It was in the summer, almost a year before the Tower incident, that Snape took the Unbreakable Vow and promised to kill Dumbledore. This is the point at which Snape became Dumbledore's murderer, unless someone else did it first. I can't see anything in JK Rowling's story in which a person is allowed to murder another.

Idabomb333

August 7th, 2006, 8:10 pm

I totally agree with everything you said. This is exactly what I was trying to get at, only in greater detail. But as for Snape making the vow in the first place, I don't think he knew what he was getting himself into. When he told Narcissa that he knew what Voldemorts plan for Draco was , I think he was bluffing. He was trying to draw information out of her, by pretending to be "in the know". And the only reason that he agreed to the vow, was to quell Bellatrixs' doubts about his loyalty.

I don't think that Snape knew that Narcissa was going to add that bit at the end about him completing the mission if Draco couldn't, this is why Snapes' hand twitched at that part. He wanted to back out when he realized what she was going to say, but at that point, it was too late to back out.
I have to disagree that Snape was bluffing, for three reasons.

1) I don't think he would have made the vow unless Dumbledore had previously said that it would be worth killing Dumbledore to protect Draco and to get Snape in tight with Voldemort.

2) I think his statement that Voldemort meant for Snape to do it in the end anyway was right on the money given Draco's actual task, but probably doesn't make too much sense for anything else Draco might have been asked to do.

3) It would not be a good idea to promise, at the cost of your life, to help Draco and especially to complete his task in the end, without knowing what the task was.

Draco is now a Death Eater. JK Rowling said so in her interview with Mellisa and Emerson in July of 2005. He has now made a lifetime commitment he can't back out of. His only way out would have been for Dumbledore to hide him. Dumbledore's death would not have gotten Draco out of his membership with the Death Eaters.
Well, first of all, remember that while Dumbledore would of course prefer for Draco's death to be fake, he would probably prefer for Draco to run away from the Death Eaters at the expense of Draco's life than have Draco kill someone. Anyway, the point was that he could tell Draco wasn't really evil and he was trying protect Draco from Voldemort. Once the other DEs arrived on the top of the tower, it's quite possible that the only way to protect Draco (and family) from Voldemort is for Dumbledore to die, and he would be willing to make that sacrifice.

Also, Dumbledore believes (correctly) that Voldemort will be defeated soon. Draco's DE service won't be for a lifetime because Voldemort will be gone soon and Draco will be free.

And then forget about what happened on the Tower. What about what happened at Spinners End?
So are you agreeing that, given the vow, what happened on the Tower is consistent with Snape fighting for Good?

It was in the summer, almost a year before the Tower incident, that Snape took the Unbreakable Vow and promised to kill Dumbledore. This is the point at which Snape became Dumbledore's murderer, unless someone else did it first. I can't see anything in JK Rowling's story in which a person is allowed to murder another.
Well, if Voldemort can't be redeemed, and Harry's got to go after the Horcruxes and then Voldemort, isn't that in order to kill Voldemort? Hasn't Dumbledore said that Harry must murder or be murdered? Is that a case of a murder being allowed?

I addressed the vow some above. Snape appeared to already know about Draco's task, and was apparently already planning to do his best to make sure Draco was safe. I don't find it difficult to see how Snape could think he was right to promise to kill Dumbledore in order to save Draco, especially if Dumbledore had told him beforehand that that's what he should do if it comes down to it.

I also tend to think that if Dumbledore's plan of faking Draco's death had worked, things would have turned out much differently. Snape and Dumbledore didn't anticipate the exact situation at the top of the Tower. Dumbledore was convinced (and Snape probably was too) that Draco would fail to get DEs into Hogwarts. Eventually, Dumbledore would get Draco alone and talk him into Dumbledore's plan to save him. They would never suspect that Draco would really succeed, especially not at a time when Dumbledore was incapable of protecting himself (and the students and Order members) from the DEs.

So the vow would have been a jam for Snape too, not really thinking that what happened would happen. Bellatrix doesn't trust him, and might report suspicious behavior. He wants to protect Harry, Draco, Dumbledore, and himself (and in my version, this might really be his priority order). Up until the final section of the vow, what he does is absolutely what he should do to be honorable and good. The final section is debatable, and he pauses (predictable if he's good, but not if he's bad) before deciding that Dumbledore will be able to protect Draco. It's possible that he knows that will satisfy the vow. If he knows/suspects it won't, then he has the following choice:
1) Make the vow, so when the time comes, he and Dumbledore can decide together which of the two should die. Dumbledore may well have told him that Snape is more valuable before the time of the vow.
2) Don't make the vow, and risk Bella killing him on the spot or reporting to Voldemort that he refused to vow to kill Dumbledore, which would likely be inexplicable to Voldemort, and still lead to Snape's death.

Now, you can make the case that it's better for him to go with #2 there, and accept his likely death in order to save Dumbledore, but I think it's perfectly fair for him to go with #1. In #1, he still has the possibility of dying instead of Dumbledore. In the meantime, he can try to spy on Draco and make sure no one gets hurt AND he'll have gained at least Narcissa's and maybe Bellatrix's trust, which can only help his general mission of spying on the DEs for the Order. Throw in the possibility that Dumbledore and Snape agree that Snape is far more valuable to Harry than Dumbledore is, and it's at least an understandable mistake even if it's not the right plan.

SusanBones

August 7th, 2006, 8:53 pm

So are you agreeing that, given the vow, what happened on the Tower is consistent with Snape fighting for Good?This is a tough answer. I think that what Snape did on the Tower was wrong. And the way he reacted when Harry called him a coward, was to me an indication that he knew it was wrong. Does that make him bad? I think he is a nasty guy who betrayed Dumbledore. But somehow he will redeem himself.

Grim_Reapster

August 7th, 2006, 9:00 pm

I have to disagree that Snape was bluffing, for three reasons.

1) I don't think he would have made the vow unless Dumbledore had previously said that it would be worth killing Dumbledore to protect Draco and to get Snape in tight with Voldemort.

2) I think his statement that Voldemort meant for Snape to do it in the end anyway was right on the money given Draco's actual task, but probably doesn't make too much sense for anything else Draco might have been asked to do.

3) It would not be a good idea to promise, at the cost of your life, to help Draco and especially to complete his task in the end, without knowing what the task was.

I think that part of Snapes under-cover mission, was that he had to do whatever became necessary to earn Voldemort's (and his Death Eaters) trust. When he agreed to the vow, it wasn't on Dumbledores' orders, he was winging it.

As for his comment that Voldemort expected him to do it in the end, I think, by then, Snape had worked out what the mission really was by Narcissas' comments.

He gambled that taking the vow was worth the risk, to cement his position as a trusted Death Eater. He was wrong. He thought that he was only agreeing to protect Draco. I think that Snape expected Draco to try, and fail at his mission. And he knew that Dumbledore wouldn't hurt him, so agreeing to protect him was redundant. In fact Snape warning Dumbledore of what Draco was up to, probably qualifies as protecting him. Because attacking Dumbledore would have been much more dangerous if he wasn't expecting it.

And when he realized what he was agreeing to, he still went through with it, because he probably knew that Dumbledore would offer to help Draco, and he wouldn't have to complete the mission for him. What Snape didn't bargain for was the Death Eaters. There was no way for him to know that Draco would find a way to get them into the castle. Draco never told him what his plan was.

With the Death Eaters there, there was no way for Draco to accept Dumbledores' offer. So Snape had to go through with it.

SusanBones

August 7th, 2006, 9:20 pm

I think that part of Snapes under-cover mission, was that he had to do whatever became necessary to earn Voldemort's (and his Death Eaters) trust. When he agreed to the vow, it wasn't on Dumbledores' orders, he was winging it.

As for his comment that Voldemort expected him to do it in the end, I think, by then, Snape had worked out what the mission really was by Narcissas' comments.

He gambled that taking the vow was worth the risk, to cement his position as a trusted Death Eater. He was wrong. He thought that he was only agreeing to protect Draco. I think that Snape expected Draco to try, and fail at his mission. And he knew that Dumbledore wouldn't hurt him, so agreeing to protect him was redundant. In fact Snape warning Dumbledore of what Draco was up to, probably qualifies as protecting him. Because attacking Dumbledore would have been much more dangerous if he wasn't expecting it.

And when he realized what he was agreeing to, he still went through with it, because he probably knew that Dumbledore would offer to help Draco, and he wouldn't have to complete the mission for him. What Snape didn't bargain for was the Death Eaters. There was no way for him to know that Draco would find a way to get them into the castle. Draco never told him what his plan was.

With the Death Eaters there, there was no way for Draco to accept Dumbledores' offer. So Snape had to go through with it.Wow, I actually agree with most of what you just said. I think it makes a whole lot more sense than the Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him theories. Snape did not know about the Death Eaters and that complicated matters and forced Snape's hand.

Dantedanger

August 8th, 2006, 12:04 am

He thought that he was only agreeing to protect Draco. I think that Snape expected Draco to try, and fail at his mission. And he knew that Dumbledore wouldn't hurt him, so agreeing to protect him was redundant. In fact Snape warning Dumbledore of what Draco was up to, probably qualifies as protecting him. Because attacking Dumbledore would have been much more dangerous if he wasn't expecting it.

And when he realized what he was agreeing to, he still went through with it, because he probably knew that Dumbledore would offer to help Draco, and he wouldn't have to complete the mission for him. What Snape didn't bargain for was the Death Eaters. There was no way for him to know that Draco would find a way to get them into the castle. Draco never told him what his plan was.

I agree with you for the best part, but I think that this would be outside of snapes character. Snape is one of, if not the most careful character in the books. He has to be, regardless of his allegience given the sensitivity of his role. that aside, he is often the first to realise what is going on (in PS at the quidditch match) and very quick minded and devious. It is totally out of characer that he would act so rashly so as to gamble the OOTP leadership on anbreakable vow. A simpler answer would have been " i take orders from the dark lord only" rather than to simply accept the vow. Any gambling, is not in line with snapes way of doing things.

I am not sugggesting that he is on the DE side ( i believe the opposite is true) but I do think that to suggest that snape gambled and got it wrong is not the best way to defend him.

SusanBones

August 8th, 2006, 1:13 am

A simpler answer would have been " i take orders from the dark lord only" rather than to simply accept the vow. This is what I thought, too. Oh he could have said something like, "It would go against the Dark Lord's wishes. He assigned the task to Draco and would be displeased to have another complete it. " He only has to convince Bellatrix. They certainly aren't going running off to Voldmeort to tell them what they made Snape do. We see Snape answering all of Bellatrixes questions expertly. He has a reason for every "questionable" thing he did. He was even able to convince Voldemort he was still on his side. It is very suspicious that he wasn't able to worm his way out of vowing to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed.

Idabomb333

August 8th, 2006, 3:44 am

This is what I thought, too. Oh he could have said something like, "It would go against the Dark Lord's wishes. He assigned the task to Draco and would be displeased to have another complete it. " He only has to convince Bellatrix. They certainly aren't going running off to Voldmeort to tell them what they made Snape do. We see Snape answering all of Bellatrixes questions expertly. He has a reason for every "questionable" thing he did. He was even able to convince Voldemort he was still on his side. It is very suspicious that he wasn't able to worm his way out of vowing to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed.
If the argument for why good Snape wouldn't make the vow isn't that there's no viable reason for him to make the vow, but that it's slightly out of character, I'd invoke the fiction card. JKR wanted Snape to make the vow because it makes the story so much more interesting.

DaProngs

August 8th, 2006, 4:05 am

I think Snape is of the most mysterious characters in the serious, everytime he does something whether unexpectedly or unlikely that keeps us all guessing. I'm still torn in between whether Snape is good or bad. I think this is what J.K. wants her fans to think, to kee pus guessing. But the fact of the matter is..he did kill Dumbledore, a truly good person would not killed someone unless the person intended to die was evil, which Dumbledore was not. However all of this would have been easily decided for me if Dumbledore was not beggging. Why was he begging and what for? He's not the type of person to be begging for his life, so what was it that he was begging for?

Dantedanger

August 8th, 2006, 12:44 pm

But the fact of the matter is..he did kill Dumbledore, a truly good person would not killed someone unless the person intended to die was evil, which Dumbledore was not. However all of this would have been easily decided for me if Dumbledore was not beggging. Why was he begging and what for? He's not the type of person to be begging for his life, so what was it that he was begging for?

Dumbledore was not begging:

HBP 556 : "The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading."

The normal word used is for some one to Beg for their life, this Dumbledore did not do. He pleaded, which has more positive connotations than begging. It may be that he was pleading with snape to not do what he eventually did, but in that case, I think the word beg would have most likely been used. JKR took great care to make it ambiguous...

SusanBones

August 8th, 2006, 12:58 pm

However all of this would have been easily decided for me if Dumbledore was not beggging. Why was he begging and what for? He's not the type of person to be begging for his life, so what was it that he was begging for?He could have been pleading for Snape not to become a murderer. Pleading with Snape not to leave his role of spy. Pleading to Snape to do what is right and not doom his soul.

Idabomb333

August 8th, 2006, 4:10 pm

He could have been pleading for Snape not to become a murderer. Pleading with Snape not to leave his role of spy. Pleading to Snape to do what is right and not doom his soul.
Yeah, there are several things it would be in character for him to have been pleading for, some would indicate that Snape is good and some that Snape is bad. I think we can all agree, though, that it would be out of character for Dumbledore to plead for his life.

Interestingly, regardless of whether Snape is good or not, Dumbledore totally trusted Snape to the end. Whatever he was pleading for, it was colored by his trust in Snape. So I think, given that, it's VERY unlikely that he was pleading for Snape to not become a murderer or to stay good or something -- if Snape is bad, Dumbledore had no idea. Dumbledore was pleading for something with the assumption that Snape is good. Given THAT, it seems to me that the only thing he could be pleading for is for Snape to kill him, but I could be missing something. If we can conclude that Dumbledore was asking for Snape to kill him, though, then we have to assume that Snape knew that was what Dumbledore was asking for. THAT implies they had previously talked about the possibility and THAT implies that Snape is in fact good, and knew that Dumbledore was willing to die to save Snape and Draco and so on.

Grim_Reapster

August 8th, 2006, 4:20 pm

He could have been pleading for Snape not to become a murderer. Pleading with Snape not to leave his role of spy. Pleading to Snape to do what is right and not doom his soul.

Yes, but he could, just as easily, been pleading for Snape to carry out the plan that they had agreed on. I think that the argument that Hagrid overheard, was Snape refusing to kill Dumbledore if it came down to it, And Dumbledore insisting that he must.

Of course this is only my opinion, which has been wrong before. only time will tell who's right.

ronjalina

August 8th, 2006, 4:47 pm

If the argument for why good Snape wouldn't make the vow isn't that there's no viable reason for him to make the vow, but that it's slightly out of character, I'd invoke the fiction card. JKR wanted Snape to make the vow because it makes the story so much more interesting.
That is always a very valuable argument, IMO. JKR has to write the story interesting and we can debate on and on about what we would do or what would be logical or how the story could have been if something happened in another way but most of the time it is just more interesting as it is written by JKR.

[QUOTE]Interestingly, regardless of whether Snape is good or not, Dumbledore totally trusted Snape to the end. Whatever he was pleading for, it was colored by his trust in Snape. That is true. And maybe that is because our opinion on Snape is coloured as well, at least the opinion of some of us.:D Dumbledore´s almost overwhelming trust in Snape is actually my main reason why I think that Snape works for the good side.

So I think, given that, it's VERY unlikely that he was pleading for Snape to not become a murderer or to stay good or something -- if Snape is bad, Dumbledore had no idea. Dumbledore was pleading for something with the assumption that Snape is good. Given THAT, it seems to me that the only thing he could be pleading for is for Snape to kill him, but I could be missing something. If we can conclude that Dumbledore was asking for Snape to kill him, though, then we have to assume that Snape knew that was what Dumbledore was asking for. THAT implies they had previously talked about the possibility and THAT implies that Snape is in fact good, and knew that Dumbledore was willing to die to save Snape and Draco and so on.Yes, I always imagined they must have talked about various possibilities before. That´s pure speculation of course, but that´s how I explain everything what happened to myself. Snape as a spy for the Order and Dumbledore as Head of the Order must have worked out some worst case scenarios and I agree with those who suggest that Dumbledore might have told Snape that he as a spy with direct access to Voldemort´s inner circle could be more useful in the end than Dumbledore himself who knew that his time was limited anyway and that he got weaker and weaker.

Some posters have said that they think Snape works only for himself and looks where he could gain the most. If that is the case, I think the side of the order is the best choice anyway. It is debatable if Snape knows the whole prophecy and is aware that Harry is capable to finish Voldemort in the end, but Snape is clever and he can put two and two together and working with Dumbledore all those years and witnessing everything that happened around Harry since he was at Hogwarts must have told Snape that this is the side most likely to win.

Yes, but he could, just as easily, been pleading for Snape to carry out the plan that they had agreed on. I think that the argument that Hagrid overheard, was Snape refusing to kill Dumbledore if it came down to it, And Dumbledore insisting that he must. That´s how I see it as well. I am not a native speaker and I read the books in the english original so I might have missed some subtleties of the English Language but when I first read the "Severus.. please" part I was irritated. I instantly thought pleading for his life just don´t fit with "my" Dumbledore. So there must be something else to it. And pleading to proceed with a plan althoug it would be hard for Snape is a good explanation for the "Severus...please", IMO.

7caitlyn7

August 8th, 2006, 4:52 pm

its possible that dumbledore asked snape to kill him but i dont no...to me it just doesnt fit

Lily_Ravenclaw

August 8th, 2006, 4:54 pm

davalon

August 8th, 2006, 5:07 pm

Again, if this is a repeat, I'm sorry.

I just reread HBP (first re-read since finishing it when it came out... took me that long to deal with DD's death :( ). When Harry is chasing down Draco and Snape, Snape says and does some things that make me think he's still on the good side. When someone behind him hexes Harry, Snape stops them saying that Potter is for the Dark Lord. Then Snape also tells Harry something like no unforgivable curses, almost like he's trying to keep Harry "pure". He makes comments about Harry not using nonverbal spells, too.

This time through, I almost got the feeling Snape was trying to give Harry some clues as to how to duel better - almost like he was instructing him (in the way Snape always instructed Harry, but still trying to teach).

So, Harry now owes his life to Snape, much the same way Snape owed his life to James. Interesting twist, eh?

DaProngs

August 8th, 2006, 5:12 pm

Originally Posted by Susan Bones
He could have been pleading for Snape not to become a murderer. Pleading with Snape not to leave his role of spy. Pleading to Snape to do what is right and not doom his soul.

I very much doubt the he was pleading with him to give up his role to give up spy because by helping Dumbledore then he would be giving up that role. I think there's much more to it than that, maybe he was pleading not to betray him although Grim Reapster does have a point. That would make alot of sense. But I don't see Snape returning to the Order.

7caitlyn7

August 8th, 2006, 5:17 pm

maybe snape told dumbledore about the unbreckable vow and about the plan so then Dumbledore said that snape had to keep to his word and go through with his promise to protect malfoy.

Idabomb333

August 8th, 2006, 5:58 pm

While I agree that it seems likely that Dumbledore was asking for Snape to kill him (for whatever reason) I do not think that should this assumption prove correct, that it automatically implies that Snape is good. Snape could have killed Dumbledore under Voldemort's orders, while still have Dumbledore believe it was under his orders. If Snape and Dumbledore had a plan, and he told Voldemort of it then Voldemort might very well have instigated everything still go according to his plans. Voldemort would want Dumbledore dead, no doubt, so whether Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him or not, Voldemort probably did too, so it doesn't prove he was definitely doing it ONLY on DD's orders.

I hope that made sense :)
Excellent point. That is possible. I would say, though, that if every reader knew Dumbledore was prepared to die and in fact WANTED Snape to kill him in that situation, a large majority of readers would conclude that Snape is good.

The idea that Snape murdered Dumbledore, that he betrayed Dumbledore and the Order, is the main argument that Snape is bad. If killing Dumbledore was what Dumbledore wanted Snape to do, and not a betrayal, then the bottom falls out of the argument that Snape is bad.

In other words, if Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill Dumbledore, it's possible Snape did it because Voldemort ordered him to, but there's no particular reason to say he did it because he's evil. It effectively makes Snape killing Dumbledore a neutral act. Without that point, the Snape is bad camp starts looking pretty weak to me.

staniw

August 9th, 2006, 1:23 am

Taking the unbreakable vow certainly could not have been made with the intentions of helping Dumbledore. The only possible results from the unbreakable vow are the death of Dumbledore or the death of Snape. Neither of those deaths is helpful for the order. Helpful for the order was dodging the vow.
Helpful for Draco was making sure Dumbledore’s plan with Draco was fulfilled, not taking him to Voldemort. There was no need for Snape to take Draco with him, even after Dumbledore’s death. He could have easily stunned him and left him behind and in doing so separate Draco from Voldemort, according to Dumbledore’s wishes.
We’ve all read spinner’s end and in no way was Snape forced to make the vow. All he had to do was citing Voldemort’s orders; even Bella was expecting him to do just that. It staggers belief that Snape, the man who supposedly had fooled Voldemort completely would be unable to get out of a tight situation with a desperate Narcissa and an out of favour Bella or would make the vow because of a miscalculation. And we see Snape in complete control of the discussion in spinner’s end, no one forced his hand. The third clause cannot have been a surprise for Snape since Narcissa asked him before the vow to do “it” instead of Draco.

margie08

August 9th, 2006, 1:51 am

I have always believed Snape was good....when I got to the spinner's end chapter in HBP I refused to believe he was evil. Like many people do, I believe he made the vow to protect his position as a spy and Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to kill him, because Dumbledore believed Snape holding his position as spy was more important than himself being alive. I also believe the argument overheard by Hagrid was Dumbledore saying Snape must go through with what he promised. I don't know, Snape has just always been good in my book, no matter how mean he may be. I trust Dumbledore's judgement and we know he trusted Snape.

PunkRockGirli

August 9th, 2006, 1:53 am

Dumbledore's greatest mistake was trusting Snape- even he said that his mistakes normally turn out to be that much worse than normal wizard's mistakes. If the reason we've been given is true (Snape's reason for being good) I don't think that should count on him being a good guy any time soon...We know he hated the Potters.

SinLooWho

August 9th, 2006, 3:57 am

There has been a good point brought up about Snape being able to dodge the vow. I'll have to think on that a little, but I was thinking about something else. Dumbledore had destroyed the horcrux (ring?) over the summer. After he damged himself doing that and before he went to get Harry, he went to Snape for help. To heal him properly, I would assume that he would have to tell Snape about the horcruxes and the plan to destroy them; that injury was caused by doing just that. So this gives them opportunity to talk; plan before Spinner's End, right? I'm not saying that he knew that the vow was coming, but I just wonder about the fact that Snape may have known about the horcruxes at the time and what effect that may have had.

Also, the point was brought up that the Order most likely had more spies than just Snape, so who's to say that they did not find out about Voldemort's plan to force Draco into service and even what he was forcing him to do. They know that Lucius is in Azkaban, right? That he has fallen out of favor? So it is up to Draco to save his family. They may have had some information prior to Spinner's end. Yes? No?

ronjalina

August 9th, 2006, 12:12 pm

We’ve all read spinner’s end and in no way was Snape forced to make the vow. All he had to do was citing Voldemort’s orders; even Bella was expecting him to do just that. It staggers belief that Snape, the man who supposedly had fooled Voldemort completely would be unable to get out of a tight situation with a desperate Narcissa and an out of favour Bella or would make the vow because of a miscalculation. And we see Snape in complete control of the discussion in spinner’s end, no one forced his hand. The third clause cannot have been a surprise for Snape since Narcissa asked him before the vow to do “it” instead of Draco.
I am still not sure if Snape really could have dodged the vow. Althought I heartily agree with you that Snape seems to be in full control of the situation at Spinner´s End I think this is because he foresaw in his mind that one day he might have this kind of conversation with Bellatrix. He already played that situation through in his mind and knew quite well how to react if it comes to it.
Lots of people here state that Voldemort is the only one Snape owes explanations and obedience and that all he should have done at Spinner´s End was to point exactly that out to Bellatrix and Narcissa. But I think in order to be able to spy on Voldemort, Snape has to gain the trust of the other Death Eaters as well, he can obtain very valuable information from them since they are around Voldemort more often than himself who is at Hogwarts teaching. Thus I think he had to give Bellatrix something. Furthermore I have the impression - as clever as Snape is without doubt - that he got tricked into making the UV somehow. Never underestimate a desparate women :lol:. I think - although he most probably knew exactly what Draco´s task was - he did not expect the third condition. That´s why his hand twiched. He expected to vow to protect Draco and that was what he was about to do anyway. He got surprised by the third condition. Snape says that Voldemort most probably wanted him to do it in the end anyway but that would have been without consequences. The moment he made an Unbreakable Vow and agreed on the third condition, to fulfill the task if Draco fails, Snape knew it was about him or Dumbledore dying. I see Snape as a kind of a tragic figure here. He not really had a chance. Either die from the Vow or kill Dumbledore, damage his soul and become an outcast in the Wizarding world.

After he damged himself doing that and before he went to get Harry, he went to Snape for help. To heal him properly, I would assume that he would have to tell Snape about the horcruxes and the plan to destroy them; that injury was caused by doing just that. So this gives them opportunity to talk; plan before Spinner's End, right? I'm not saying that he knew that the vow was coming, but I just wonder about the fact that Snape may have known about the horcruxes at the time and what effect that may have had. I don´t think that Snape knows about the Horcruxes. Wouldn´t Dumbledore have told Harry? I don´t know, I mean it´s possible but I think he doesn´t know. But Snape has to know that Dumbledore is up to something important, dangerous and crucial in the fight against Voldemort. I agree that this is most probably the point when Dumbledore and Snape talked about various scenarios which could happen and the necessity of killing Dumbledore could have been one of them.

SinLooWho

August 9th, 2006, 2:54 pm

to fulfill the task if Draco fails

Just to throw a quick question out there? Do we know with absolute certainty that his task at that point was not just to find a way to get the DE's into the castle? He knew why they were coming and made weak attempts at trying to do that part to, either to get caught or to prove to the DL that his family was worth saving? I don't know why, just thought of that. But I am sure that we have more information as to what his true task was and I am simply forgetting it.

the necessity of killing Dumbledore could have been one of them

Or possibly the fact that whatever he had done to sustain the injury, (if you contend that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about how he got the injury) was slowly killing him. Snape could slow the process, but not stop it completely. I don't know, though, A part of me still thinks that to properly treat him, Sanpe would need to know what kind of magic he was dealing with. Or maybe that is why he can't fully heal him.

DaProngs

August 9th, 2006, 3:08 pm

Originally Posted by staniw
There was no need for Snape to take Draco with him, even after Dumbledore’s death. He could have easily stunned him and left him behind and in doing so separate Draco from Voldemort, according to Dumbledore’s wishes.

Apart of the promises Snape made to Narcissa in Spinner's End was keeping Draco safe so he couldn't have left him, or he died and thus killing Dumbledore in vain. Snape could have avoided the Unforgiveable Curse, he could have just said that what he was doing was treachery against the Dark Lord because the whole meeting at Spinner's End wasn't sanctioned by him and Narcissa would be committing a crime against the Dark Lord to talk about the plan. However if he wanted to prove his loyalty to Bella then of course he'd take the UV. However I believe he did this not on Dumbledore's orders, but on his own accord. I agree with ronjalina that he was well prepared to answer the question Bella asked him.

Dumbledore did not tell anyone about the Horcruxes except for Harry who told Ron and Hermione, the only other person who would probably know about the Horcruxes although not in detail is Professor Slughorn.

Fawkesfan1

August 9th, 2006, 3:36 pm

Yeah, there are several things it would be in character for him to have been pleading for, some would indicate that Snape is good and some that Snape is bad. I think we can all agree, though, that it would be out of character for Dumbledore to plead for his life.

Interestingly, regardless of whether Snape is good or not, Dumbledore totally trusted Snape to the end. Whatever he was pleading for, it was colored by his trust in Snape. So I think, given that, it's VERY unlikely that he was pleading for Snape to not become a murderer or to stay good or something -- if Snape is bad, Dumbledore had no idea. Dumbledore was pleading for something with the assumption that Snape is good. Given THAT, it seems to me that the only thing he could be pleading for is for Snape to kill him, but I could be missing something. If we can conclude that Dumbledore was asking for Snape to kill him, though, then we have to assume that Snape knew that was what Dumbledore was asking for. THAT implies they had previously talked about the possibility and THAT implies that Snape is in fact good, and knew that Dumbledore was willing to die to save Snape and Draco and so on.
I agree with you on this Idabomb333! I think that it was actually Dumbledore took the Unbreakable vow and not Snape and that he had Snape follow through on killing him, so that both him and Draco would be free from the effects of the vow itself.

Here are some clues that I have found that I think lend some creedence to this theory:

* he wasn't afraid of death - he thought of it as "the next great adventure" - this shows that he wasn't afraid of sacrificing himself for the good of others, if the need arises.

* he did figuratively "sacrifice" himself so that Harry could continue to go to Hogwarts in OOTP. I think that this forshadowed his death. Also, when he disappeared with Fawkes, it foreshadowed the "phoenix" that Harry saw at his funeral.

* He [most likely] told Snape that he took the vow and that he [Snape] needs to keep an eye on Draco and make sure that he doesn't get hurt.

* Harry told Dumbledore about what Snape was talking to Draco about; he told Harry to "put it out of his mind", that "it was not of great importance." He also said that "he understood everything that he told him, if possibly better than he did." - this to me was a big clue that most likely it was him that took the vow and not Snape ;).

* The arguement between Snape and Dumbledore - Snape told Dumbledore that he was taking things for granted - my best guess is that this happened after Dumbledore told him to continue the plan and possibly kill him since he [Dumbledore] took the vow, so Snape and Malfoy would be in the clear. Snape said that he didn't want to go thru with it anymore - Dumbledore then told him flat out that he agreed to it and that was all there was to it.

* Snape tried to get out of doing stuff as a Death Eater before - "Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh he'll try, I'm sure.... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action... Oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!" - this quote shows that it couldn't have been the real Snape that took the vow; the very fact that he [Dumbledore] offered his help in the first place along with accepting to take the vow without any balking that the real Snape usually does shows this.

*Here's something that I noticed that I thought stuck out like sore thumb in Spinner's End: Snape [Dumbledore] spoke to both Narcissa and Bellatrix in 3rd person when talking about Dumbledore trusting him... this normally wouldn't be anything... but I looked back through the series and saw that the only time that Snape ever spoke in the 3rd person was to "The Marauder's Map", not to another person. On the other hand, Dumbledore has spoke in 3rd person to another person, After Prof. Mcgonagall told him that she would go with him, he said "Oh yes he will, Minerva!"...

Here's what Snape [Dumbledore] said to them: "But through all these years, he has never stopped trusting Severus Snape, and therein lies my great value to the Dark Lord."

I was originally going to post this in another thread, but unfortunately the link to it doesn't work...

Grim_Reapster

August 9th, 2006, 3:39 pm

Just to throw a quick question out there? Do we know with absolute certainty that his task at that point was not just to find a way to get the DE's into the castle? He knew why they were coming and made weak attempts at trying to do that part to, either to get caught or to prove to the DL that his family was worth saving? I don't know why, just thought of that. But I am sure that we have more information as to what his true task was and I am simply forgetting it.

I think the fact that he tried (half-heartedly) to send the cursed necklace, and the poisoned mead to Dumbledore, suggests that it was his mission. And when the Death Eaters showed up, Greyback was going to kill Dumbledore, but another Death Eater stopped him saying, "No, we've got orders. Dracos' got to do it". But as I said before, I don't think he was really trying.

ronjalina

August 9th, 2006, 8:41 pm

Just to throw a quick question out there? Do we know with absolute certainty that his task at that point was not just to find a way to get the DE's into the castle? Good question, but I think his task - or better one of his tasks - was to kill Dumbledore. He tried to do so with the cursed necklace and the poisoned mead. I agree that this were ineffective awkward efforts. Some posters suggested (or was it you?) that Draco indeed acted so inept in order to get caught. I never thought of that but I think it is a possibility. At first Draco was very proud to be trusted with such an enormous task by the DL but later on he grew more and more desparate as we see with his crying in Moaning Myrtle´s bathroom or Harry noticing that Draco looked extraordinary pale and slim.

Or possibly the fact that whatever he had done to sustain the injury, (if you contend that Dumbledore did not tell Snape about how he got the injury) was slowly killing him. Snape could slow the process, but not stop it completely. I don't know, though, A part of me still thinks that to properly treat him, Sanpe would need to know what kind of magic he was dealing with. Or maybe that is why he can't fully heal him.
[/QUOTE] Yes, that´s how I see it. The injury plus Dumbledore getting weaker and weaker anyway due to his age and the after-effects of the fight with Voldemort at the DoM was slowly killing him. Therefor I think Snape´s treatment was merely slowing it down. Bying Dumbledore some more time so to say. I might be completely wrong of course but that´s the best explanation I can come up for myself.

Apart of the promises Snape made to Narcissa in Spinner's End was keeping Draco safe so he couldn't have left him, or he died and thus killing Dumbledore in vain. Agreed. BTW, I am not sure Snape took Draco to Voldemort. I think he might have taken Draco with him to hide him at some safe place (this would be consistent with the Vow, there was not time limit to the "protecting Draco" part).

Snape could have avoided the Unforgiveable Curse, he could have just said that what he was doing was treachery against the Dark Lord because the whole meeting at Spinner's End wasn't sanctioned by him and Narcissa would be committing a crime against the Dark Lord to talk about the plan. Yes, but Narcisse didn´t tell Snape details of the plan, so technically she didn´t betray Voldemort. Snape said (pretended?) that he knew of the plan anyway. The first two conditions of the Vow were only about protecting Draco which was a vague and very general commitment.

TheForce

August 9th, 2006, 9:21 pm

Its a pity that both sides (The Snape is Good believers and the Snape is Bad believers) have facts to back their theories. Makes speculation so much more tedious (sigh).

Anyway, rather than dig for more facts, why not discuss the consequences of either possibility and then decide what is more likely...

Personally, I can't see Snape as a cold blooded double agent because frankly speaking that would make him a baddie to rival Voldemort and I think we've got just about enough baddies to get any series going.
So thinking along these lines I would say Snape was either good or else he is the very-cliched-confused-man-with-the-troubled-past-who-becomes-the-bad-guy-turned-good-blah-blah...

Any ideas?

Grim_Reapster

August 9th, 2006, 9:40 pm

Some posters suggested (or was it you?) that Draco indeed acted so inept in order to get caught.

That would be me, not that I'm bragging.........:D

ronjalina

August 9th, 2006, 9:51 pm

That would be me, not that I'm bragging.........:D
Okay, sorry, I didn´t want to take the credit away from you. :)
But I think it´s very probable Draco at least subconcsiously wanted to be caught. We witnessed that Draco couldn´t kill Dumbledore in the end (and didn´t JKR state herself that Draco never would have been able to do that during the recent NY QandA session?)

SinLooWho

August 9th, 2006, 10:50 pm

I agree with you on this Idabomb333! I think that it was actually Dumbledore took the Unbreakable vow and not Snape and that he had Snape follow through on killing him, so that both him and Draco would be free from the effects of the vow itself.

Here are some clues that I have found that I think lend some creedence to this theory:

* he wasn't afraid of death - he thought of it as "the next great adventure" - this shows that he wasn't afraid of sacrificing himself for the good of others, if the need arises.

* he did figuratively "sacrifice" himself so that Harry could continue to go to Hogwarts in OOTP. I think that this forshadowed his death. Also, when he disappeared with Fawkes, it foreshadowed the "phoenix" that Harry saw at his funeral.

* He [most likely] told Snape that he took the vow and that he [Snape] needs to keep an eye on Draco and make sure that he doesn't get hurt.

* Harry told Dumbledore about what Snape was talking to Draco about; he told Harry to "put it out of his mind", that "it was not of great importance." He also said that "he understood everything that he told him, if possibly better than he did." - this to me was a big clue that most likely it was him that took the vow and not Snape ;).

* The arguement between Snape and Dumbledore - Snape told Dumbledore that he was taking things for granted - my best guess is that this happened after Dumbledore told him to continue the plan and possibly kill him since he [Dumbledore] took the vow, so Snape and Malfoy would be in the clear. Snape said that he didn't want to go thru with it anymore - Dumbledore then told him flat out that he agreed to it and that was all there was to it.

* Snape tried to get out of doing stuff as a Death Eater before - "Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh he'll try, I'm sure.... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action... Oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!" - this quote shows that it couldn't have been the real Snape that took the vow; the very fact that he [Dumbledore] offered his help in the first place along with accepting to take the vow without any balking that the real Snape usually does shows this.

*Here's something that I noticed that I thought stuck out like sore thumb in Spinner's End: Snape [Dumbledore] spoke to both Narcissa and Bellatrix in 3rd person when talking about Dumbledore trusting him... this normally wouldn't be anything... but I looked back through the series and saw that the only time that Snape ever spoke in the 3rd person was to "The Marauder's Map", not to another person. On the other hand, Dumbledore has spoke in 3rd person to another person, After Prof. Mcgonagall told him that she would go with him, he said "Oh yes he will, Minerva!"...

Here's what Snape [Dumbledore] said to them: "But through all these years, he has never stopped trusting Severus Snape, and therein lies my great value to the Dark Lord."

I was originally going to post this in another thread, but unfortunately the link to it doesn't work...

Interesting theory and a lot osupport that you have found that could back you up. The only one I take issue with off the top of my head is the one that you have with Harry going to Dumbledore about Snape and Draco planning something. Dumbledore, and most other adults for that matter, always told Harry to basically lay off the Snape suspecting. So, I don't know about that meaing anything...but, who knows at this point!:lol:

Grim_Reapster

August 9th, 2006, 11:21 pm

Okay, we've been debating whether, or not, Snape is evil for quite awhile now. And after he killed Dumbledore, the obvious answer should be yes. This is why so many believe that he is. Only some-one truly evil would kill a defenceless man who trusted him, right?

But in her interview with Emerson and Melissa, JKR was asked, "Is Snape evil?". This was her answer:

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously - Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it? Whatever I say, and obviously it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories, and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories. I love the theories.

She said that the answer would be a spoiler, that has a huge impact on their (Snape and Harrys) next meeting. Well as I said above, the obvious answer should be yes. So if he really is evil, that could hardly be considered a spoiler.

In my opinion, the only way it would be a "spoiler", would be if the answer was either, no he's not evil, or, yes he's evil but he's still on Dumbledores' side. If he were truly evil, why didn't Jo just come out and say so?

Unless she truly is evil, and wanted to torture us for a few more years.

DaProngs

August 10th, 2006, 12:17 am

FawkesFan1 Your theory about Dumbledore switching places with Snape is very interesting. However I very much doubt that because the same night Dumbledore went to pick up Harry was when the UV was done. Which meant that Snape would have to impersonate Dumbledore. For one, I don't think there is anyone who could ever try and impersonate Dumbledore. I can't see it. Especially Snape of all persons. For Snape to have impersonated Dumbledore he'd have to know that Harry had classes with Dumbledore. I don't think Snape knew of that. I really can't see it. Snape would never have been able to impersonate Dumbledore as the Polyjucie Potion would have to be taken hourly. Maybe he could have taken it in the drink (Mullmead (sp?) but I very much doubt that. It seems very unlikely for this to have happened.

Dantedanger

August 10th, 2006, 12:28 am

Also, the point was brought up that the Order most likely had more spies than just Snape, so who's to say that they did not find out about Voldemort's plan to force Draco into service and even what he was forcing him to do. They know that Lucius is in Azkaban, right? That he has fallen out of favor? So it is up to Draco to save his family. They may have had some information prior to Spinner's end. Yes? No?

Your first point was very interesting also, but I do need to think on it also. However, it seems to be often overlooked that it is highly unlikely that snape is the ONLY spy. A clue is given that R.A.B. was working to his own ends outside the order, so perhaps there is someone else kicking around outside the order (mundungus?) and so Dumbledore would have possibly have had more information

SusanBones

August 10th, 2006, 12:38 am

But I think it´s very probable Draco at least subconcsiously wanted to be caught. We witnessed that Draco couldn´t kill Dumbledore in the end (and didn´t JKR state herself that Draco never would have been able to do that during the recent NY QandA session?)I think that Draco had realized he was in over his head. We have the scene with Draco and Moaning Myrtle in which Draco is crying. That's shows his human side. I don't know if he subconsciously wanted to get caught, but I think that he really wished he didn't have to kill Dumbledore as time went on.

HagathaChristie

August 10th, 2006, 1:23 am

DaProngs

August 10th, 2006, 2:29 am

Orignally Posted by Dantedanger
Your first point was very interesting also, but I do need to think on it also. However, it seems to be often overlooked that it is highly unlikely that snape is the ONLY spy. A clue is given that R.A.B. was working to his own ends outside the order, so perhaps there is someone else kicking around outside the order (mundungus?) and so Dumbledore would have possibly have had more information
What clue was that? R.A.B. works for the Order? I agree with you that the Order has more spies, Lupin for example spies on Greyback. However remember the way how Snape, Bella and Cissy spoke of the plan? It sounded like not everyone knew of the plan and in any case those who know about the plan wouldn't necessarily be new to the Death Eaters, they'd have to be very close to Voldemort too, like Snape is. It seems to me that most of the known members work for the Ministry so Voldemort wouldn't too heavily rely on them to switch sides and we already know that Mundugus is a spy but among theives, and theives would not be likely to know such information.

Fawkesfan1

August 10th, 2006, 11:54 pm

Artemis_Fowl_2

August 10th, 2006, 11:58 pm

I tend to think the same thing, but if this did happen, Dumbledore would have Snape act as if he was the one who took the vow and not himself [Dumbledore].
I also don't think a man as intelligent as Dumbledore would take an unbreakable vow - let alone with Death Eaters or their spouses.

savingharry

August 11th, 2006, 5:01 pm

Hello all! first time poster in the CoS. :)

Okay, we've been debating whether, or not, Snape is evil for quite awhile now. And after he killed Dumbledore, the obvious answer should be yes. This is why so many believe that he is. Only some-one truly evil would kill a defenceless man who trusted him, right?

But in her interview with Emerson and Melissa, JKR was asked, "Is Snape evil?". This was her answer:

She said that the answer would be a spoiler, that has a huge impact on their (Snape and Harrys) next meeting. Well as I said above, the obvious answer should be yes. So if he really is evil, that could hardly be considered a spoiler.

In my opinion, the only way it would be a "spoiler", would be if the answer was either, no he's not evil, or, yes he's evil but he's still on Dumbledores' side. If he were truly evil, why didn't Jo just come out and say so?

Unless she truly is evil, and wanted to torture us for a few more years.

It could just as easily be that she wanted her fans to retain their theories, and, as she has said in another interview on this subject, "give us hope." I agree that her interview could be interpreted as you have said, and that Snape revealing he was good all the time would come as a big twist in the plot. But if she tells us that Snape is truely evil, wouldn't that still give away too much, and limit twists? What if Snape really did do it on purpose, but tries to fool harry by telling him that it was planned? Wouldn't that be a twist too? But perhaps there is no twist, and harry and snape fight, as you have said. Wouldn't that be, in a way, a twist as well? JK knows that her audience is still wondering about snape's true loyalty, and finding out that, no, he's not good and no, he's not going to become good again, wouldn't that, ironically, be a twist? Yeah, it'd upset me, but it'd be a twist.

fish

ronjalina

August 11th, 2006, 5:56 pm

I think that Draco had realized he was in over his head. We have the scene with Draco and Moaning Myrtle in which Draco is crying. That's shows his human side. I don't know if he subconsciously wanted to get caught, but I think that he really wished he didn't have to kill Dumbledore as time went on.
Agreed. At first he was very proud to be trusted with that task but then he began to doubt. That is when he started to make this awkward efforts with the necklace and the poisonded mead. I think this was a subconscious attempt to get caught so that he wasn´t forced to do it any more. And he knew of the Unbreakable Vow so he knew he had Snape to back him up.

It sounded like not everyone knew of the plan and in any case those who know about the plan wouldn't necessarily be new to the Death Eaters, they'd have to be very close to Voldemort too, like Snape is. I honestly think only Draco, Narcissa, Bellatrix and Snape knew of the plan. The latter is debatable as to when he learnt of Draco´s task.

It could just as easily be that she wanted her fans to retain their theories, and, as she has said in another interview on this subject, "give us hope." I agree that her interview could be interpreted as you have said, and that Snape revealing he was good all the time would come as a big twist in the plot. But if she tells us that Snape is truely evil, wouldn't that still give away too much, and limit twists? What if Snape really did do it on purpose, but tries to fool harry by telling him that it was planned? Wouldn't that be a twist too? But perhaps there is no twist, and harry and snape fight, as you have said. Wouldn't that be, in a way, a twist as well? JK knows that her audience is still wondering about snape's true loyalty, and finding out that, no, he's not good and no, he's not going to become good again, wouldn't that, ironically, be a twist? Yeah, it'd upset me, but it'd be a twist.:welcome: to the forum
I agree that whether Snape is good or bad JKR has enough twists up on her sleeve to surprise us. Maybe the answer on Snape is just not that clear-cut. He is a very intriuging obscure character and it´s possible JKR enjoys our theorizing.

Grim_Reapster

August 11th, 2006, 6:46 pm

Hello all! first time poster in the CoS. :)

It could just as easily be that she wanted her fans to retain their theories, and, as she has said in another interview on this subject, "give us hope." I agree that her interview could be interpreted as you have said, and that Snape revealing he was good all the time would come as a big twist in the plot. But if she tells us that Snape is truely evil, wouldn't that still give away too much, and limit twists? What if Snape really did do it on purpose, but tries to fool harry by telling him that it was planned? Wouldn't that be a twist too? But perhaps there is no twist, and harry and snape fight, as you have said. Wouldn't that be, in a way, a twist as well? JK knows that her audience is still wondering about snape's true loyalty, and finding out that, no, he's not good and no, he's not going to become good again, wouldn't that, ironically, be a twist? Yeah, it'd upset me, but it'd be a twist.

fish

Maybe you're right, and JKR just wanted us to continue speculating about it until the next book. But if Snape really is evil, and on Voldemorts' side, it wouldn't be much of a plot twist. As he appeared to be evil (just as Harry has always believed) at the end of HBP.

And as for Snape fooling Harry into thinking that it was all planned, that would be practically impossible. Harry has never trusted Snape, and now he's convinced that he was right all along. About the only thing that would make Harry believe him, would be if Snape were to save Harrys' life from either Voldemort, or his Death Eaters. And he wouldn't do that unless he is on the "good" side.

The real question here shouldn't be whether Snape is good, or evil. But, do you believe that Dumbledore made a mistake in trusting him? I know that Dumbledore himself admitted that he sometimes make mistakes, and that they tend to be huge.

But personally, I think that JKR deliberately put that in as a "Red Herring". So that when we read HBP, we'd think that Dumbledores' death was another example of him making a "Huge" mistake.