Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v3

But in the mugglenet interview JKR confirmed that Dumbledore made mistakes:

While it’s clear that Dumbledore’s mistake in book 5 was not telling the prophecy it’s difficult to see which mistake in book 6 JKR is referring to if it isn’t his trust in Snape. And the red herring thing can go for Dumbledore’s words in the book, but not for JKR’s in this interview.


His mistake in book six may have been the curse that damaged his hand. Also the events in the cave turned out to be a mistake, as the horcrux was already gone.

I think he might be good. Then again, there would probably have to be some really odd twist for him to have had good plans or intentions (or not Snape at all) by killing Dumbledore. There are polyjuice potion theories and all that, but I don't really like to agree with them. Too far-fetched and too many holes.

I sometimes compare Snape to a reformed criminal. There are people who have been put in jail for terrible crimes, even murder, who see the error of their ways, and end up changing their lives. Some become ministers, some become lawyers, etc. Now, if there was a murderer, who then became a minister, is he good or bad? And Snape is the same. You can't call the minister good or bad, he has been both. The same with Snape. You can't call him good or bad, because he has been both.

But for whatever reason he killed Dumbledore, I don't think the good side will ever trust him again.

But for whatever reason he killed Dumbledore, I don't think the good side will ever trust him again.


No, but he may redeem himself by helping Harry in some way. I seriously doubt that Snape will survive the final book. But by the end Harry may have changed his opinion about him. And after killing Voldemort, if Harry say's Snape was one of the good guys, most people will believe him. It would be interesting if Snape survives, and Harry vouches for him, the way that Dumbledore did after Voldemorts' first fall.

And after killing Voldemort, if Harry say's Snape was one of the good guys, most people will believe him. It would be interesting if Snape survives, and Harry vouches for him, the way that Dumbledore did after Voldemorts' first fall.I agree, in fact you make a good point. Harry is probably the only person who could make people see Snape's good side.

But for whatever reason he killed Dumbledore, I don't think the good side will ever trust him again.
This is true; while they may accept his assistance, he will always be looked upon as something of an outsider, never truly trusted by anyone from the Order, except perhaps, Harry.

But in the mugglenet interview JKR confirmed that Dumbledore made mistakes:

While it’s clear that Dumbledore’s mistake in book 5 was not telling the prophecy it’s difficult to see which mistake in book 6 JKR is referring to if it isn’t his trust in Snape. And the red herring thing can go for Dumbledore’s words in the book, but not for JKR’s in this interview.

You're assuming the mistake would have to be revealed in book 6...

I thought it was interesting that JKR made the comment during the "An Evening with Harry, Carrie and Garp" that she noticed that her readers really seem to like Snape and that they never give up hope... and to me, the way she said it sounded like she was surprised that everyone still likes Snape so much. To me that made it sound like Snape really is a bad guy.

I am completely split on whether or not I think he's good or bad though - half the time I think he's good, and the other half, bad. I just dunno.

My final post tonight....I do not think that Snape will come back to the "good side" but I think he is good. I think that the way it'll work out is that he'll help Harry out in the final battle by helping him kill voldemort (I dont know how but he might help him) or by giving him clues signed by RAB (perhaps it is him....random lettered signature to send harry scrambling). I do think Snape is good, I've been convinced from reading the books through again...which is sad because I was as strong believer in the Snape is Evil phase...I still think he is evil but I think Dumbly had to die....idk.

I'm out I'll see what you all thought tomorrow!

No, but he may redeem himself by helping Harry in some way. I seriously doubt that Snape will survive the final book. But by the end Harry may have changed his opinion about him. And after killing Voldemort, if Harry say's Snape was one of the good guys, most people will believe him. It would be interesting if Snape survives, and Harry vouches for him, the way that Dumbledore did after Voldemorts' first fall.
That´s the feeling I get as well, that Snape might die in Book 7. Sorry, for all die hard Snape fans, I know it is always very unpleasant to read "death predictions" about one´s favourite character. (Honestly, I know, I´ve had enough on my favourite character).

But back to Snape: As I said in one of my previous posts I consider him as a kind of tragic figure. Whatever happens in HP7 he will either die or live as an outcast of the wizarding world. The only one to be able to convince the others about Snape being on the good side the whole time is indeed Harry and I am really excited to see if Harry (assumed Snape is good of course) will overcome his current feelings and acknowledge what good-Snape has done.

His mistake in book six may have been the curse that damaged his hand. Also the events in the cave turned out to be a mistake, as the horcrux was already gone. Or the mistake not to approach Draco earlier to convince him of returning to the good side. Maybe the mistake of not being more open about his reasons to trust Snape at least to Harry (although HP7 might teach us that is wasn´t possible to reveal this reason because it would have endangered Snape or it was top secret otherwise). Or the mistake not to detect Fake-Moody in GoF. Or the mistake not to insist more on becoming Secret Keeper for James and Lily. Or the mistake not to go after Snape when he had overheard the Prophecy. Oh my, this sounds really bad on Dumbledore if you list up these things but Dumbledore is a (literary) human being who makes mistakes and misjudges people from time to time. This is not supposed to lessen his magnificence.

Personally, I do think Snape is good. I read in one of the earlier post that someone said that he was less important than Dumbledore. I don't believe that at all. That's really the main reason why I believe Snape is still good.

If anyone read The Art of War, the last chapter lists the importance of spies. If we consider Snape the spy, and Dumbledore the general, Snape would easily be more important. The information he can obtain, especially with the raise status he will get for killing Dumbledore will be, I believe, vital for the final battle. I do not consider the headmaster a stupid man at all, I believe he realized this, and decided to sacrifice himself for the greater good.

So, yes I believe Snape is still good and will come back also...

My question is this: IF he is good, how in the world can he convince anyone?

My thoughts are maybe letting Harry see his memories of the events leading to the fateful night. Also I believe Hermione may play a small role in this, since she always defends Snape and she is maturing faster than the boys, but also becoming a bit Snape(spy)-like.

Well, that's really just my view on it all.

Snape was a Death Eater, so he was bad. During the time he was a teacher and Vapormort was looking for a wizard to help him, he was good, for the most part. Even when Quirrell showed up he remained good. Then Voldemort got back his body. We saw Snape do a lot of good things, but he also claimed that he was passing information to Voldemort during the whole time - sounds bad to me. So now we are back to a good/bad Snape. HBP ends with a dead Dumbledore and Snape holding the gun, I mean wand. Snape is definitely bad at this point. Now what will he do. He has been bad, then good, then good and bad, then bad.

JK Rowling made a comment about foreshadowing when she saw the PoA movie. The movie had Snape standing in front of the Trio to protect them from the werewolf. In the book, Snape was still out cold when Lupin turned into a werewolf. So, I think the foreshadow JK may have been referring to was the fact that Snape would protect one or more of the Trio from Voldemort. That would be the redemption.

Snape was a Death Eater, so he was bad. During the time he was a teacher and Vapormort was looking for a wizard to help him, he was good, for the most part. Even when Quirrell showed up he remained good. Then Voldemort got back his body. We saw Snape do a lot of good things, but he also claimed that he was passing information to Voldemort during the whole time - sounds bad to me. So now we are back to a good/bad Snape. HBP ends with a dead Dumbledore and Snape holding the gun, I mean wand. Snape is definitely bad at this point. Now what will he do. He has been bad, then good, then good and bad, then bad.

Just with the first paragraph, I agree. But we do notice a slight change in Snape in OOTP, cocky I think the word is. It's different from when we all found out that Voldemort was back, Snape seemed to truly be DD's man through and through. In OOTP, it seems as though Snape is starting so sit on the fence a bit or at least standing next to it.

Then after the Ministry debarcle and we see Snape again for the first time after OOTP, he seems to have decided to sit on the fence, he has embraced Voldemort and the cronies more readily then a spy should.

It fits in with the argument Hagrid overheard in the forest. That Snape was tired and felt unappreciated, hmpf, sounds like he was referring to his spying job to me.

In the end, Snape jumps the fence, but still seems to be holding on to it. Not quite embracing it as readily as a man that has completely choosen a side yet. But is there none the less.

JK Rowling made a comment about foreshadowing when she saw the PoA movie. The movie had Snape standing in front of the Trio to protect them from the werewolf. In the book, Snape was still out cold when Lupin turned into a werewolf. So, I think the foreshadow JK may have been referring to was the fact that Snape would protect one or more of the Trio from Voldemort. That would be the redemption.

Excellent point. :tu:

ya know its hard..i contemplate this alot. I dont think that he is "bad" but..i honstley think that he is good but i dont think that anyone will ever trust him again after killing Dumbledore. unless snape had a plan and someone else knew about it. I think hes good but i dont think that the charcters think hes good. i dont think Harry will ever trust him. therefore i dont think he will be playing a big role anymore..harry only trusted him cause Dumbledore trusted him...and since Dumbledore was really the only one who t rusted him then i dont think Harry has any more reason to trust him..did any of that make sense? well if not sorry!!! ttyl!

His mistake in book six may have been the curse that damaged his hand. Also the events in the cave turned out to be a mistake, as the horcrux was already gone.
But JKR states an emotional mistake made by Dumbledore in the 6th book. And the mistakes you mention are not emotional mistakes.
Trusting someone and being mistaken about that is an emotional mistake. And though we may not yet know to which emotional mistake in the 6th book JKR is referring to it’s hard to see what emotional mistake she is referring to if it is not the trusting of Snape. The only other potential emotional mistake Dumbledore made in the 6th book is thinking Draco was not a killer. And guess what? He was right about that.

But JKR states an emotional mistake made by Dumbledore in the 6th book. And the mistakes you mention are not emotional mistakes.
Trusting someone and being mistaken about that is an emotional mistake. And though we may not yet know to which emotional mistake in the 6th book JKR is referring to it’s hard to see what emotional mistake she is referring to if it is not the trusting of Snape. The only other potential emotional mistake Dumbledore made in the 6th book is thinking Draco was not a killer. And guess what? He was right about that.I agree. The resolution of the whole "why did Snape kill Dumbledore" storyline rests on the issue of trust. There is no bigger mistake that Dumbledore could have made than trusting Snape. When I read the part in HBP where Dumbledore tells Harry that his mistakes can be huge, it immediately said to me that Dumbledore made a huge mistake.

But JKR states an emotional mistake made by Dumbledore in the 6th book. And the mistakes you mention are not emotional mistakes.
Trusting someone and being mistaken about that is an emotional mistake. And though we may not yet know to which emotional mistake in the 6th book JKR is referring to it’s hard to see what emotional mistake she is referring to if it is not the trusting of Snape. The only other potential emotional mistake Dumbledore made in the 6th book is thinking Draco was not a killer. And guess what? He was right about that.


Maybe Dumbledores' mistake wasn't trusting Snape, but not trusting Harry enough to share the whole truth as to why he believes in Snape. I really think that there was more to it than the answer that he gave Harry. And now Harry is completely convinced of Snapes guilt, and he's unlikely to accept his help if it's offered. If I'm right, this wouldn't be the first time that Dumbledore held back information that he should have disclosed.

As I said before, it all comes down to whether you believe that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape. Personally, I believe that he was. I think that there was an arrangement between him, and Snape, and maybe his mistake was that he didn't realize that Harry would be present when the time came to fulfill that arrangement. Harry now believes that he witnessed Dumbledores' murder, when it may have been the ultimate act of loyality. But if Harry knew the whole truth about Snape, maybe he'd see it differently.

I admit that I may be wrong, but frankly, if I am, I'll be somewhat dissapointed in Jo. Because it means that, in the end, Dumbledore really was an old fool, for trusting too much.

Maybe Dumbledores' mistake wasn't trusting Snape, but not trusting Harry enough to share the whole truth as to why he believes in Snape. I really think that there was more to it than the answer that he gave Harry. And now Harry is completely convinced of Snapes guilt, and he's unlikely to accept his help if it's offered. If I'm right, this wouldn't be the first time that Dumbledore held back information that he should have disclosed.

As I said before, it all comes down to whether you believe that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape. Personally, I believe that he was. I think that there was an arrangement between him, and Snape, and maybe his mistake was that he didn't realize that Harry would be present when the time came to fulfill that arrangement. Harry now believes that he witnessed Dumbledores' murder, when it may have been the ultimate act of loyality. But if Harry knew the whole truth about Snape, maybe he'd see it differently.

I admit that I may be wrong, but frankly, if I am, I'll be somewhat dissapointed in Jo. Because it means that, in the end, Dumbledore really was an old fool, for trusting too much.


So true, i totally agree with you in everything. I think DD didnt tell Harry everything about Snape and why he trusts him, there is defenitly more to this then we know. I dont think DD was a fool even if he still believes in second chance in everyone, i am sure not couple of words of remorse is going to end. I am sure we will find out more about this later on in book 7.

[QUOTE=Grim_Reapster]Maybe Dumbledores' mistake wasn't trusting Snape, but not trusting Harry enough to share the whole truth as to why he believes in Snape. I really think that there was more to it than the answer that he gave Harry. Exactly:agree: That would be an emotional mistake and it mirrors the emotional mistake Dumbledore admits at the end of OOtP, that is, not telling Harry about the Prophecy and the background of the night of Godric´s Hollow earlier. Dumbledore didn´t do so because he cared too much about Harry´s emotional well-being.

And now Harry is completely convinced of Snapes guilt, and he's unlikely to accept his help if it's offered. If I'm right, this wouldn't be the first time that Dumbledore held back information that he should have disclosed.Yes, and it can lead to a tragic sitution as well, like at the MoM.

As I said before, it all comes down to whether you believe that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape. That is the main reason why I think that Snape is on the good side (apart from the fact that it would make a much more intersting story, IMO) I just cannot imagine Dumbledore - the only wizard Voldemort fears - being fooled by Snape over so many years. And I just cannot imagine Snape exploiting Dumbledore´s ability to give people second chances. But one might argue that that is an emotional mistake.

I admit that I may be wrong, but frankly, if I am, I'll be somewhat dissapointed in Jo. Because it means that, in the end, Dumbledore really was an old fool, for trusting too much.And JKR describes Snape throughout the books as an unlikeable person. We always have some doubt about Snape´s allegiances, it would just feel wrong if he really turned out evil in the end. It would be like JKR telling us all the time: Beware, Snape might be evil, Snape might be evil, and then, voilá Snape in the end is evil .

That is the main reason why I think that Snape is on the good side (apart from the fact that it would make a much more intersting story, IMO) I just cannot imagine Dumbledore - the only wizard Voldemort fears - being fooled by Snape over so many years. And I just cannot imagine Snape exploiting Dumbledore´s ability to give people second chances. But one might argue that that is an emotional mistake.

JK also seems to give us hints on his in the series as well. The identical feelings of hatred and repulsion that Harry felt for himself at force feeding Dumbledore the potion from the basin on DD's orders.

AND

The look on Snape's face of hatred and repulsion just before AKing Dumbledore.

It's definately a subtle hint that Snape is like Harry, DD's man through and through ;)

It's been a while since this has been discussed, so I'll bring it back up again.

I'm totally convinced Snape is on Dumbledore & Harry's side, primarily because he sent the Order of the Phoenix to the Ministry at the end of OotP. Trying to figure out where a double agent's loyalties lie is hard, and really the only way to be sure, I think, is how the double agent acts when neither side can hold him accountable for the decision he makes. I believe such is the case for what he did at the end of OotP.

Snape's received Harry's message, that Harry thinks Sirius is in the Ministry with Voldemort, and he's figured it out, but Harry and co. don't know that he figured it out. Harry was with Umbridge, and there was no particular reason to believe he would be able to escape. Even if he does, there's no particular reason to assume he'd be able to get to the Ministry. So Snape can either, as he did, decide to alert the Order without Voldemort knowing he did so, or he can sit back and let the Death Eaters kill Harry and take the prophecy.

If Snape's on Voldemort's side, he wouldn't do anything to risk losing the prophecy for Voldemort. If Voldemort had to choose between keeping Snape as a spy or retrieving the prophecy, I think he'd pick the prophecy. Plus, Snape could very likely get away with not helping the Order. Harry tried to alert Snape, but doesn't know for sure if Snape understood. No one else knows that Harry is trying to get to the Ministry, except the other 5 who went with him. If Snape hadn't interfered, all 6 of the kids would presumably die, and Dumbledore would never know that Snape had received a message. Snape could continue in his role spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort.

But that's not what he decided. Instead, he decided to alert the Order, costing Voldemort the prophecy. Voldemort doesn't know it, though, and Snape can continue spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore.

Basically any other decision Snape made that appears to favor one side can be explained by the fact that he needs that side to trust him. In this case, he could decide either way without losing trust from either side, so his true loyalty is revealed.

I'm totally convinced Snape is on Dumbledore & Harry's side, primarily because he sent the Order of the Phoenix to the Ministry at the end of OotP. Trying to figure out where a double agent's loyalties lie is hard, and really the only way to be sure, I think, is how the double agent acts when neither side can hold him accountable for the decision he makes. I believe such is the case for what he did at the end of OotP.A very good point, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that he's on neither's side. If, maybe, he wants to get rid of both Voldemort and Dumbledore and knows that Harry is the only one who can do Voldemort, surely he would want to keep Harry safe until he gets his chance.

A very good point, but it doesn't rule out the possibility that he's on neither's side. If, maybe, he wants to get rid of both Voldemort and Dumbledore and knows that Harry is the only one who can do Voldemort, surely he would want to keep Harry safe until he gets his chance.
That's true, it doesn't rule that possibility out, but I do think it makes that less likely. I tend to think that if he had no real preference, he'd have done nothing. I think one would have to make the case that Snape thought the good guys were at a pretty large disadvantage in order to say that he did what he did to even the playing field or something. Not only did he stop the DEs from getting the prophecy, he got several DEs captured and alerted the Ministry that Voldemort really is back.

As for protecting Harry, he knows little of the prophecy and probably little to nothing about the Horcruxes. He certainly didn't know that Harry can only defeat Voldemort in book/year 7. From his perspective, he might have been speeding Voldemort's demise by allowing a confrontation between Harry and Voldemort. That's clearly not what Dumbledore would want to happen, but it's conceivable that ambivalent Snape would think that way. He probably wouldn't care about the other kids.

Also, I don't really buy into the argument that Snape is on his own because of what he did while Voldemort was Vapormort. If he was just hungry for his own power, wouldn't Voldemort's downfall at Godric's Hollow have been enough to convince him to kill Dumbledore and step into the power vacuum? There had been talk that the DEs could gather around a new dark wizard leader. Wouldn't Snape kill Dumbledore and try to be that guy if he wasn't loyal to Dumbledore?

(To those who would say that he couldn't have killed Dumbledore, remember that Dumbledore trusted him completely. I think he could have ambushed Dumbledore any time he wanted.)

JK also seems to give us hints on his in the series as well. The identical feelings of hatred and repulsion that Harry felt for himself at force feeding Dumbledore the potion from the basin on DD's orders.

AND

The look on Snape's face of hatred and repulsion just before AKing Dumbledore.

It's definately a subtle hint that Snape is like Harry, DD's man through and through ;)
That´s a good point. When I came to the events of the Lightning Struck Tower I was so excited to know what will happen that I already forgot about details from the cave-chapter. Thus I didn´t catch this but it makes sense.
It would be completely normal to feel (self)hatred and repulsion if you have to do something you absolutely don´t want to do because you fear (Harry) respectively know (Snape) that an admired and beloved person will come to harm.

Idabomb333I agree with you about Snape alerting the Order. He could have just done nothing and pretended afterwards that he didn´t get Harry´s hints about Sirius being held at the Ministry. He would have gone away with it. But he alerted the Order (not being sure if Harry would be able to go to the Ministry in the first place) to save Sirius although he loathed him.

But that's not what he decided. Instead, he decided to alert the Order, costing Voldemort the prophecy. Voldemort doesn't know it, though, and Snape can continue spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore.

To tell you the truth, I'm still not sure about that example. See, Snape also waited, then goaded Sirius into going, by telling Sirius to stay at 12 GP and leave a message for Dumbledore, knowing full well that Sirius would do the complete opposite.

So really, that is not a very convincing example, as after this point, I thought that Snape was on his own side, whichever side comes on top. I still believe that when I read OOTP.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Snape is good, but when it suits him, he is on his own side, playing up to his saddistic nature.

That´s a good point. When I came to the events of the Lightning Struck Tower I was so excited to know what will happen that I already forgot about details from the cave-chapter. Thus I didn´t catch this but it makes sense.
It would be completely normal to feel (self)hatred and repulsion if you have to do something you absolutely don´t want to do because you fear (Harry) respectively know (Snape) that an admired and beloved person will come to harm.

Yes, it's basically the main reason why I am convinced that Snape is good, as much as I really want him to be bad, the descriptions are identical, therefore the reasoning behind the acts are identical, both Harry and Snape are DD's men. Well, IMHO anyway:D

Snape also waited,
I don't really see any evidence that he must have waited beyond what is reasonable. Keep in mind that it was absolutely crucial for the drama of the book that the Order arrived right when they did. Also, the Order would have been necessarily delayed by a few things, even if Snape moved as quickly as possible.
1) Snape has to notice that Harry and Umbridge have been in the forest for too long. It's not clear how long should have been deemed too long.
2) Snape has to make sure Harry and co did leave Hogwarts and are not in the forest or something.
3) Snape has to get the message to the Order. It's unclear whether a patronus can go from Hogwarts to Grimmauld very quickly, or if Snape had another means of contacting them.
4) The Order has to meet up. Remember, Harry stuck his head in at Grimmauld, and no one was there but Sirius (in Buckbeak's room). Who knows where everyone else was or how quickly they could gather?
5) The Order has to get to the Ministry. It's unclear whether they would all apparate, and if they can't, they would want to be sure they were in force to fight the DEs, so they wouldn't separate.
6) The Order members have to find the battle, which wasn't in the Hall of Prophecy as they would have anticipated.

then goaded Sirius into going, by telling Sirius to stay at 12 GP and leave a message for Dumbledore, knowing full well that Sirius would do the complete opposite.
Well yeah, but we all know Snape's a jerk. That's not debated. I don't think that weakens the evidence that he's loyal to Dumbledore a shred. Besides, he couldn't have known that Sirius would die and I would argue that if Sirius had not gone to the Ministry, the Order would have been facing tougher odds and they might have all died before Dumbledore arrived. I think it would be fair to say that Sirius's death, not just the Order's arrival, saved at least one other life.

Snape was a Death Eater, so he was bad. During the time he was a teacher and Vapormort was looking for a wizard to help him, he was good, for the most part. Even when Quirrell showed up he remained good. Then Voldemort got back his body. We saw Snape do a lot of good things, but he also claimed that he was passing information to Voldemort during the whole time - sounds bad to me. So now we are back to a good/bad Snape. HBP ends with a dead Dumbledore and Snape holding the gun, I mean wand. Snape is definitely bad at this point. Now what will he do. He has been bad, then good, then good and bad, then bad.

JK Rowling made a comment about foreshadowing when she saw the PoA movie. The movie had Snape standing in front of the Trio to protect them from the werewolf. In the book, Snape was still out cold when Lupin turned into a werewolf. So, I think the foreshadow JK may have been referring to was the fact that Snape would protect one or more of the Trio from Voldemort. That would be the redemption.I agree, since he looks bad as of now, that means he would be going back to the good side... :huh: :clap:

Snape is good and will prove it by dying to save Harry.

I don't really see any evidence that he must have waited beyond what is reasonable. Keep in mind that it was absolutely crucial for the drama of the book that the Order arrived right when they did. Also, the Order would have been necessarily delayed by a few things, even if Snape moved as quickly as possible.
1) Snape has to notice that Harry and Umbridge have been in the forest for too long. It's not clear how long should have been deemed too long.
2) Snape has to make sure Harry and co did leave Hogwarts and are not in the forest or something.
3) Snape has to get the message to the Order. It's unclear whether a patronus can go from Hogwarts to Grimmauld very quickly, or if Snape had another means of contacting them.
4) The Order has to meet up. Remember, Harry stuck his head in at Grimmauld, and no one was there but Sirius (in Buckbeak's room). Who knows where everyone else was or how quickly they could gather?
5) The Order has to get to the Ministry. It's unclear whether they would all apparate, and if they can't, they would want to be sure they were in force to fight the DEs, so they wouldn't separate.
6) The Order members have to find the battle, which wasn't in the Hall of Prophecy as they would have anticipated.

I think that your list is a bit inaccurate for one. Snape did not go out looking for anyone, he waited for them to come out of the forest, they didn't or he didn't see them, surely, he would have seem 6 students flying out of the forest.

It's been confirmed that patronus is the official way for members of the Order to send a message, as it's a more secure method.

The order were at Headquarters when Snape informed them. He pointedly said that Sirius should stay behind and inform Dumbledore what was happening, obviously he would have implied that Sirius was lucky to be out of harms way, goading him into doing something rash and stupid, which Sirius did.

Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and continued, 'Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt ad Remus Lupin were at Headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the Forest for you.

As for a battle, Snape knew it was going to happen, he's the blinking spy for Dumbledore on Voldemort and the DEs. He already knows it's a trap because obviously, Sirius is sitting before him and not being tortured at the DoM by Voldemort.

Which is why in OOTP, I really didn't trust Snape at all. Though, now, in HBP, he was DD's man in the end that is now forced to stay with the enemy, it will be interesting to see how this all pans out. ;)

I think that your list is a bit inaccurate for one. Snape did not go out looking for anyone, he waited for them to come out of the forest, he didn't, surely, he would have seem 6 students flying out of the forest.

It's been confirmed that patronus is the official way for members of the Order to send a message, as it's a more secure method.

The order were at Headquarters when Snape informed them. He pointedly said that Sirius should stay behind and inform Dumbledore what was happening, obviously he would have implied that Sirius was lucky to be out of harms way, goading him into doing something rash and stupid, which Sirius did.

Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and continued, 'Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt ad Remus Lupin were at Headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the Forest for you.

As for a battle, Snape knew it was going to happen, he's the blinking spy for Dumbledore on Voldemort and the DEs. He already knows it's a trap because obviously, Sirius is sitting before him and not being tortured at the DoM by Voldemort.

Which is why in OOTP, I really didn't trust Snape at all. Though, now, in HBP, he was DD's man in the end that is now forced to stay with the enemy, it will be interesting to see how this all pans out. ;)
Yes it should be :). By the way I found something interesting that happened in OOTP, that happened again in HBP, When Harry was telling Snape about what had happened to Sirius he told him it in code "Padfoot is at the place where it is hidden" - not exact quote, so that Umbridge wouldn't know what they were talking about; then in HBP, Snape tells Harry in front of the DE's that in order to beat any of the DE's that he needs to learn Occulmency and Non-Verbal spells or else he doesn't have a chance at all - in a way that the DE's wouldn't understand - "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

Hmmmm... lately... I have just been going back to my initial feeling after reading the Half-Blood Prince - that Snape is bad. I was absolutely convinced (albeit, completely shocked!) that Snape was evil after I finished the book. And now I'm starting to think that my initial impression was right (especially after Jo's comments that she is surprised that her readers like Snape so much and that they don't want to give up hope...). But, of course, next week I might change my mind again. =)

Hmmmm... lately... I have just been going back to my initial feeling after reading the Half-Blood Prince - that Snape is bad. I was absolutely convinced (albeit, completely shocked!) that Snape was evil after I finished the book. And now I'm starting to think that my initial impression was right (especially after Jo's comments that she is surprised that her readers like Snape so much and that they don't want to give up hope...). But, of course, next week I might change my mind again. =)
I feel the same way... I never liked the guy though... but I still have a feeling that things weren't as they seemed in HBP ...

By the way I found something interesting that happened in OOTP, that happened again in HBP, When Harry was telling Snape about what had happened to Sirius he told him it in code "Padfoot is at the place where it is hidden" - not exact quote, so that Umbridge wouldn't know what they were talking about; then in HBP, Snape tells Harry in front of the DE's that in order to beat any of the DE's that he needs to learn Occulmency and Non-Verbal spells or else he doesn't have a chance at all - in a way that the DE's wouldn't understand - "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

I agree :tu: Snape was giving Harry a hint, just like Harry was giving Snape a hint. Do you think that maybe there was someone there watching or that Snape may have thought someone was listening to them?

Hmmmm... lately... I have just been going back to my initial feeling after reading the Half-Blood Prince - that Snape is bad. I was absolutely convinced (albeit, completely shocked!) that Snape was evil after I finished the book. And now I'm starting to think that my initial impression was right (especially after Jo's comments that she is surprised that her readers like Snape so much and that they don't want to give up hope...). But, of course, next week I might change my mind again. =)

Welcome to the club :D Only I think I change my mind more frequently. Don't like sitting on the fence, either he is or he isn't. :lol:

I agree :tu: Snape was giving Harry a hint, just like Harry was giving Snape a hint. Do you think that maybe there was someone there watching or that Snape may have thought someone was listening to them?
There very well could have been, and maybe Snape didn't want them to find out what he was saying or else he would have blown his cover, which wouldn't have been good.

:lol: Latisha and Fawkesfan1. :) Yep, can't quite decide.

Another thing I have always thought: I think people are kinda swayed in their opinions about Snape because Alan Rickman is so loveable. I think he is a large part of the reason I thought Snape was good up until HBP. I always thought Snape was mean when I was reading the books, but I didn't quite think he was evil until he killed Dumbledore. Rickman is such a great actor, and he puts so much comic relief into his character that it is fun to watch him (and I think that makes people end up rooting for Snape b/c they love Alan).

I'm totally convinced Snape is on Dumbledore & Harry's side, primarily because he sent the Order of the Phoenix to the Ministry at the end of OotP. Trying to figure out where a double agent's loyalties lie is hard, and really the only way to be sure, I think, is how the double agent acts when neither side can hold him accountable for the decision he makes. I believe such is the case for what he did at the end of OotP......If Snape's on Voldemort's side, he wouldn't do anything to risk losing the prophecy for Voldemort. .....But that's not what he decided. Instead, he decided to alert the Order, costing Voldemort the prophecy. Voldemort doesn't know it, though, and Snape can continue spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore.

Basically any other decision Snape made that appears to favor one side can be explained by the fact that he needs that side to trust him. In this case, he could decide either way without losing trust from either side, so his true loyalty is revealed.You bring up a really good point, that a double-agent has to keep both sides happy. Snape had to alert the Order to what Harry was doing, or Dumbledore would have stopped believing that Snape was working for him.

Now what about Voldemort? Would he have known that Snape was the one who alerted the Order and thereby sent them to the MoM? He clearly wanted Harry to go the MoM to get the prophecy. He sent a whole bunch of Death Eaters to wait for Harry. Voldemort considered Snape to be his spy. He would probably know that Snape may have to alert the Order so he could maintain his cover. What Voldemort probably didn't count on was Harry showing up with 5 other kids who had learned enough to hold the Death Eaters off until help arrived. Voldemort probably didn't consider the fact that Harry really did not care what the prophecy said, and therefore wasn't careful enough to keep it from breaking. What Voldemort thought to be a simple plan, Death Eaters getting the prophecy from Harry, became a huge loss for him. The prophecy is gone and some of his best Death Eaters are in Azkaban. Even Snape thought that the Death Eaters should have been able to get the prophecy from Harry without any trouble. After all, he was always able to get the best of him.

I think the way Snape acted in OotP shows that he is still working both sides.

There very well could have been, and maybe Snape didn't want them to find out what he was saying or else he would have blown his cover, which wouldn't have been good.

Exactly :tu: Snape was the only DE left at Hogwarts grounds, the others had already made it outside the grounds and apparated, so it's actually quite likely that Snape realised that there was someone there watching them :scared:

Or I could be over analysing things and it's actually for Voldemort when he performs legilimency on Snape. That would probably the most likely explaination for the crypted message. ;)

Another thing I have always thought: I think people are kinda swayed in their opinions about Snape because Alan Rickman is so loveable. I think he is a large part of the reason I thought Snape was good up until HBP. I always thought Snape was mean when I was reading the books, but I didn't quite think he was evil until he killed Dumbledore. Rickman is such a great actor, and he puts so much comic relief into his character that it is fun to watch him (and I think that makes people end up rooting for Snape b/c they love Alan).

Ah, you can definately count me out on that one, I have only seen Rickman as Snape and the bad guy on Die Hard and didn't find him very appealing in either role. :lol: But I have been told by a poster to hold my judgment until I see Sense and Sensibility, so it might be awhile :lol:

Now what about Voldemort? Would he have known that Snape was the one who alerted the Order and thereby sent them to the MoM? He clearly wanted Harry to go the MoM to get the prophecy. He sent a whole bunch of Death Eaters to wait for Harry. Voldemort considered Snape to be his spy. He would probably know that Snape may have to alert the Order so he could maintain his cover. What Voldemort probably didn't count on was Harry showing up with 5 other kids who had learned enough to hold the Death Eaters off until help arrived. Voldemort probably didn't consider the fact that Harry really did not care what the prophecy said, and therefore wasn't careful enough to keep it from breaking. What Voldemort thought to be a simple plan, Death Eaters getting the prophecy from Harry, became a huge loss for him. The prophecy is gone and some of his best Death Eaters are in Azkaban. Even Snape thought that the Death Eaters should have been able to get the prophecy from Harry without any trouble. After all, he was always able to get the best of him.

Actually what I believed happened or else Snape would have been dead by now, is that after Snape alerted the Order to what Harry and the others had done, he went straight to Voldemort and told Voldemort what was happening, which is why Voldemort appeared out of nowhere.

I totally agree that Snape seemed to be playing both sides in OOTP, which is why I didn't trust him in that book. ;)

I'm going back and forth on this issue too. JKR does comment that she can't believe we (or some of us) like Snape so much. Which is fine because Snape is not really likeable. So I can see were she might be suprised about his popularity. But evil? She's never comments one way or the other, that I'm aware of.

She also states that she is happy to dispell rumors or speculations (Dumbledore is dead) that just won't lead us anywhere. And given that she refused to point blank state that Snape is good or evil, leaves me.... well, wondering.

As much as I like Snape's character (in the books and movies - and I love Alan Rickman) my biggest reason for holding out that Snape is on the good side is that Dumbledore had absolute trust in him. For Dumbledore to be that wrong about Snape, just doesn't fit. There are repetative themes that Dumbledore does make mistakes, but this is just a HUGE mistake.

I don't know, I'm so confused! :grumble:

I think that your list is a bit inaccurate for one.
Fair enough, that was off the top of my head and I had remembered a couple things incorrectly. The main thing, though, is that it's absolutely crucial for the book that the Order arrived RIGHT when they did.

Snape did not go out looking for anyone, he waited for them to come out of the forest, they didn't or he didn't see them, surely, he would have seem 6 students flying out of the forest.
The quote you posted said he was going to look in the forest for them, so he clearly didn't see them fly away.... That's kind of irrelevant, though, since your quote shows that Snape alerted the Order before going to look in the forest. So basically #2 and #4 in my list can be eliminated.

It's been confirmed that patronus is the official way for members of the Order to send a message, as it's a more secure method.
Yes, and my point is, how long would it take Snape's patronus to get to Grimmauld with the message? Or did he apparate there and then go back to Hogwarts to check the forest? We don't know how the message got to the Order, and how long it would take to get there. It might have taken a long time.

The order were at Headquarters when Snape informed them. He pointedly said that Sirius should stay behind and inform Dumbledore what was happening, obviously he would have implied that Sirius was lucky to be out of harms way, goading him into doing something rash and stupid, which Sirius did.
I still don't see how this shows Snape isn't loyal to Dumbledore. It just shows that Snape and Sirius hated each other, which is undeniable. And as I said, I think it was good for the Order that Sirius did go, because otherwise the odds would have been even worse for the Order before Dumbledore arrived.

As for a battle, Snape knew it was going to happen, he's the blinking spy for Dumbledore on Voldemort and the DEs. He already knows it's a trap because obviously, Sirius is sitting before him and not being tortured at the DoM by Voldemort.
Obviously the Order knew there was a battle to be found, that's why they went. I was saying it's not clear how quickly they'd be able to figure out WHERE the battle was within the Ministry. Presumably, they'd go straight to the Hall of Prophecy, but that's not where the fighting was happening. Did they go there and then have to turn around and look everywhere? It could have taken a significant amount of time for them to get to Harry and all even once they reached the Ministry.

I thought snake was always good just a little misterious.

As much as I like Snape's character (in the books and movies - and I love Alan Rickman) my biggest reason for holding out that Snape is on the good side is that Dumbledore had absolute trust in him. For Dumbledore to be that wrong about Snape, just doesn't fit. There are repetative themes that Dumbledore does make mistakes, but this is just a HUGE mistake.

I don't know, I'm so confused! :grumble:


This is exactly how I feel about it as well. I can't bring my self to believe that Dumbledore was that wrong. I still think that there was more behind his trusting Snape, than what he told Harry.

If it turns out that Snape is evil, it's as if JKR is saying that there are some people that don't deserve second chances. Now what kind of moral is that for a kids story?

I don't really see any evidence that he must have waited beyond what is reasonable. We can conclude that Snape must have waited if we take a look at what happened between Snape leaving Umbridge´s office and the point when the Order Members joined the others at the MoM. Harry and Hernione had to lure Umbridge deep into the Forrest, they met Grawp, Umbridge was carried away by the Centaurs, they were found by Ron and the others who in the meantime had managed to break free form the Inquisitorial Squad, they rode to London by Thestrals (from Northern Scotland!), they had to find the Hall of Prophecy, they began fighting the DEs. That´s quite a lot happening and I should think it took some time.

Keep in mind that it was absolutely crucial for the drama of the book that the Order arrived right when they did. That´s definately a valid point.

1) Snape has to notice that Harry and Umbridge have been in the forest for too long. It's not clear how long should have been deemed too long.Why? The task of the moment was saving Sirius and not watching out for what Harry was up to. Harry wanted Snape to act immediately in order to help Sirius. Even if Snape knew about Voldemort´s plan to lure Harry into the MoM he couldn´t take for granted that Harry would be able to escape Umbridge and the IS any time soon.
3) Snape has to get the message to the Order. It's unclear whether a patronus can go from Hogwarts to Grimmauld very quickly, or if Snape had another means of contacting them.I always thought he used the Floo-Network, but wait... the Network is monitored by the Ministry. Therefor using a Patronus would be most likely (although I think Patronuses as means of communication among the Order members is not introduced before HBP)Of course we don´t know how fast a Patronus is, but I would assume it must be quite fast since sometimes Order members need urgent help and a slow means of communication - as save as it might be - would be useless.
5) The Order has to get to the Ministry. It's unclear whether they would all apparate, and if they can't, they would want to be sure they were in force to fight the DEs, so they wouldn't separate.
6) The Order members have to find the battle, which wasn't in the Hall of Prophecy as they would have anticipated.But are they really expecting to find an already raging battle? From the quote Latisha provided we know that they didn´t expect Harry & Co. already at the MoM, therefor it must have been primarily a rescue mission for them at that moment with the high possibility of an ensuing fight of course.

Well yeah, but we all know Snape's a jerk. That's not debated. I don't think that weakens the evidence that he's loyal to Dumbledore a shred. I completely agree. I still think that the fact that Snape alerted the Order at all tells us that he is on the good side. I´m sure he would have come up with a convincing explanation if he hadn´t done so. Granted, Snape knows that Dumbledore believes Harrry but he knows as well how very much Dumbledore trust him.

We still have to find a satisfactory explanation as to why Snape waited before he alerted the Order.

Actually what I believed happened or else Snape would have been dead by now, is that after Snape alerted the Order to what Harry and the others had done, he went straight to Voldemort and told Voldemort what was happening, which is why Voldemort appeared out of nowhere.
I was always under the impression that Voldemort was there all the time, somewhere in the background, greedily awaiting to put his fingers on the Prophecy and maybe hoping for the chance to finish Harry right there and then. But I might be wrong. It´s some time since I read OOtP.
But the point that Snape had to inform Voldemort somehow in order to maintain his cover as spy for him makes complete sense.

You bring up a really good point, that a double-agent has to keep both sides happy. Snape had to alert the Order to what Harry was doing, or Dumbledore would have stopped believing that Snape was working for him.

Now what about Voldemort? Would he have known that Snape was the one who alerted the Order and thereby sent them to the MoM?
Huh? I'm convinced Snape DID NOT have to alert the Order, and Dumbledore would have continued believing him. Especially assuming Harry would have died at the Ministry, it would be easy for Snape to say he had no idea that Harry did anything out of the ordinary.

As for Voldemort, if he knew Snape alerted the Order, he would kill Snape. The prophecy was his top priority. Also, note that Bella didn't ask for an explanation as to why Snape would alert the Order. And if Snape had told Voldemort he alerted the Order, he also would have said that Dumbledore would soon know about the goings on at the Ministry too, but Voldemort was surprised when Dumbledore saved Harry.

We can conclude that Snape must have waited if we take a look at what happened between Snape leaving Umbridge´s office and the point when the Order Members joined the others at the MoM. Harry and Hernione had to lure Umbridge deep into the Forrest, they met Grawp, Umbridge was carried away by the Centaurs, they were found by Ron and the others who in the meantime had managed to break free form the Inquisitorial Squad, they rode to London by Thestrals (from Northern Scotland!), they had to find the Hall of Prophecy, they began fighting the DEs. That´s quite a lot happening and I should think it took some time.
<snip>
Why? The task of the moment was saving Sirius and not watching out for what Harry was up to. Harry wanted Snape to act immediately in order to help Sirius. Even if Snape knew about Voldemort´s plan to lure Harry into the MoM he couldn´t take for granted that Harry would be able to escape Umbridge and the IS any time soon.
I would definitely not expect Snape to guess anything was wrong before the group got on the thestrals. He knew Harry was imagining that Voldemort had Sirius at the Ministry. Harry would have also known it was ridiculous if he knew what Voldemort was after and that only Voldemort and Harry could take it off the shelves. So Snape wouldn't do anything to contact the Order until he had reason to believe Harry was really on his way to the Ministry.

I always thought he used the Floo-Network, but wait... the Network is monitored by the Ministry. Therefor using a Patronus would be most likely (although I think Patronuses as means of communication among the Order members is not introduced before HBP)Of course we don´t know how fast a Patronus is, but I would assume it must be quite fast since sometimes Order members need urgent help and a slow means of communication - as save as it might be - would be useless.
The patronus method is very useful over relatively short distances. In GoF, I think, Dumbledore sends his phoenix patronus to Hagrid with a message to come look for Barty Crouch Sr, right? And Tonks sends her new patronus to the castle in HBP. But those two cases appear to be moving at the speed of the respective animals. Snape might use the patronus method to contact HQ, and it might be a very fast animal, but still take a long time to get there.

Also, I think it's interesting that in the quote Latisha posted, Dumbledore says that the Order group was at HQ "when he [Snape] made contact." That implies that he didn't apparate there.

But are they really expecting to find an already raging battle? From the quote Latisha provided we know that they didn´t expect Harry & Co. already at the MoM, therefor it must have been primarily a rescue mission for them at that moment with the high possibility of an ensuing fight of course.
Well, regardless, they would have expected the most likely place to find Harry was the Hall of Prophecy.

We still have to find a satisfactory explanation as to why Snape waited before he alerted the Order.
What does it for me is that the Order had to arrive when they did because it's a book. It wouldn't bother me at all for JKR to say that Snape did not wait before he alerted the Order, but that he did it as soon as he put 2 and 2 together.

But the point that Snape had to inform Voldemort somehow in order to maintain his cover as spy for him makes complete sense.
I really think Voldemort would rather lose Snape as a spy (if it came to that, and it wouldn't) than lose the prophecy by having Snape alert the Order.

Yes, and my point is, how long would it take Snape's patronus to get to Grimmauld with the message? Or did he apparate there and then go back to Hogwarts to check the forest? We don't know how the message got to the Order, and how long it would take to get there. It might have taken a long time.

A patronus is a spirit guardian. The key word being spirit, so it is able to move through solid barriers, which has also been confirmed by JK. I think that it's safe to assume not long, unless Snape asked it to go slowly:eyebrows:

I still don't see how this shows Snape isn't loyal to Dumbledore. It just shows that Snape and Sirius hated each other, which is undeniable. And as I said, I think it was good for the Order that Sirius did go, because otherwise the odds would have been even worse for the Order before Dumbledore arrived.

Sirius is a member of the order, to attack/ambush/trap a member of the order, you are fighting the order, therefore you are fighting Dumbledore.

I was saying it's not clear how quickly they'd be able to figure out WHERE the battle was within the Ministry.

I don't think that they or Snape are that slow. They have been protecting it for almost a year, Snape has seen it in Harry's head during their occulmen lessons. He knew where Harry was, the order knew where Harry was.

It could have taken a significant amount of time for them to get to Harry and all even once they reached the Ministry.

Actually, we know that you can apparate into the ministry for go via floo powder as we have seen others do it. Or even just apparate to the phone box. They were adults, not children as Harry and the rest were.

A patronus is a spirit guardian. The key word being spirit, so it is able to move through solid barriers, which has also been confirmed by JK. I think that it's safe to assume not long, unless Snape asked it to go slowly:eyebrows:
But the Hogwarts Express takes a whole day to get from King's Cross to Hogsmeade, and the track is probably pretty straight. I'm not saying a patronus is really slow, I'm saying it's a large distance.

Sirius is a member of the order, to attack/ambush/trap a member of the order, you are fighting the order, therefore you are fighting Dumbledore.
Dumbledore is fully aware that Snape goaded Sirius into going, and still trusts Snape. Snape just doesn't think Sirius should be in the Order. It was definitely cruel of Snape to taunt Sirius, but it doesn't mean he was on Voldemort's side.

I don't think that they or Snape are that slow. They have been protecting it for almost a year, Snape has seen it in Harry's head during their occulmen lessons. He knew where Harry was, the order knew where Harry was.
Harry hardly knew where Harry was when the Order found him, remember? The Order would have known to go to the Hall of Prophecy, but that's not where Harry was. Everyone was in the veil room by that time. There was no particular reason for anyone to suspect that's where Harry or the fight would be until they got there.

Actually, we know that you can apparate into the ministry for go via floo powder as we have seen others do it. Or even just apparate to the phone box. They were adults, not children as Harry and the rest were.
The only place in the Ministry where we see people apparate is in the entrance hall, which makes sense. It would be very bizarre if wizards could apparate directly to the Department of Mysteries. I also tend to think that if it had been possible, all the Death Eaters would have disapparated from the veil room ASAP when Dumbledore arrived. Why would Bella run to the entrance hall if she could have just apparated away?

Also, I'm not sure all the Order members (Sirius in particular) can/do apparate. Don't we hear about him travelling around the world when he's hiding out, getting closer to Hogwarts in PoA and so on? Plus he had that flying motorcycle. I could be imagining that, but I feel like we've been given indications that not all adults, and maybe not all Order members, apparate.

But the Hogwarts Express takes a whole day to get from King's Cross to Hogsmeade, and the track is probably pretty straight. I'm not saying a patronus is really slow, I'm saying it's a large distance.

It's longer going by train because he can't go through a mountain because it is solid. A patronus can though, which would cut time in half, well more than half. DD's patronus in GoF, went with a flash that Harry didn't even get a good look at it and that was only to Hagrid's cabin, same as Tonks patronus.

Dumbledore is fully aware that Snape goaded Sirius into going, and still trusts Snape. Snape just doesn't think Sirius should be in the Order. It was definitely cruel of Snape to taunt Sirius, but it doesn't mean he was on Voldemort's side.

Either way, Snape shows that he does not care about the goal of the order to recruit in order to fight LV's army and Snape is causing their deaths because he has a personal grudge with one of them. I'm not saying Snape is on LV's side, what I'm saying is that Snape was for himself, not for Dumbledore or Voldemort, but for himself. To be trusted and yet kill a helper because you don't like them is not the characteristic of someone who is trustworthy, but of someone who is not fighting for good or bad, but for themselves.

Harry hardly knew where Harry was when the Order found him, remember? The Order would have known to go to the Hall of Prophecy, but that's not where Harry was. Everyone was in the veil room by that time. There was no particular reason for anyone to suspect that's where Harry or the fight would be until they got there.

Sorry, I understand what you mean now. They did not know where Harry was exactly, only that Harry had gone to the prophecy room in the DoM. Though, I'm sure with the commotion it would not have been hard to locate them, they weren't exactly quiet as a mouse.

The only place in the Ministry where we see people apparate is in the entrance hall, which makes sense. It would be very bizarre if wizards could apparate directly to the Department of Mysteries. I also tend to think that if it had been possible, all the Death Eaters would have disapparated from the veil room ASAP when Dumbledore arrived. Why would Bella run to the entrance hall if she could have just apparated away?

Apparate to the entrance hall, you are at the ministry in a second, take the elevator about 10 minutes tops, enter the doors 10 minutes tops, remember following the commotion. 20minutes tops from 12GP to the DoM.

Oh and just a reminder, Dumbledore put an anti-disaparation jinx on the DEs, he told Fudge when Fudge arrived at the MoM.

Also, I'm not sure all the Order members (Sirius in particular) can/do apparate. Don't we hear about him travelling around the world when he's hiding out, getting closer to Hogwarts in PoA and so on? Plus he had that flying motorcycle. I could be imagining that, but I feel like we've been given indications that not all adults, and maybe not all Order members, apparate.

Sirius was up there with the brightest of his year, it's a matter of choice, whether or not a person wants to apparate. Harry prefers brooms and hadn't really learnt how to apparate properly, yet he was able to apparate himself and Dumbledore. So I disagree :D

I think that snape is evil and he was never really on the good side so how can he come back?

The way I see it, Snape is either good or he is out for himself. I like to think that he is on his own side, looking out for number one. He is such a powerful wizard from what we have seen. Also, if he is just out for himself, he could help Harry get rid of Voldemort in HP 7 in order to have both of the most powerful wizards out of the way.

Because I doubt that will happen, I guess I'll go with good. I am in full belief of the snape/Dubledore death plot. I think in book seven we will either learn of this death plot and Snape will help Harry, or Snape will help Harry behind the scenes while still appearing to be Voldemorts loyal servant.

It's longer going by train because he can't go through a mountain because it is solid. A patronus can though, which would cut time in half, well more than half. DD's patronus in GoF, went with a flash that Harry didn't even get a good look at it and that was only to Hagrid's cabin, same as Tonks patronus.
I don't think I agree that a patronus is twice as fast as the Hogwarts Express, but the point is even if it is, that would mean it would take a patronus hours to get to Grimmauld.

Either way, Snape shows that he does not care about the goal of the order to recruit in order to fight LV's army and Snape is causing their deaths because he has a personal grudge with one of them. I'm not saying Snape is on LV's side, what I'm saying is that Snape was for himself, not for Dumbledore or Voldemort, but for himself. To be trusted and yet kill a helper because you don't like them is not the characteristic of someone who is trustworthy, but of someone who is not fighting for good or bad, but for themselves.
Dumbledore knows Snape let his personal pain, and his dislike for James and Sirius get in the way. Snape taunted Sirius and stopped teaching Occlumency to Harry, and Dumbledore knows all of that, but still trusts Snape completely. How can we explain Dumbledore continuing to trust Snape if you're right, without asserting that Dumbledore missed these obvious points?

You interpret it as Snape fighting for himself, but I interpret it as Snape being loyal to the Order, but being unable to overcome his hatred of Sirius. Dumbledore appears to agree with me, right? Or at least, can't we assume that Dumbledore has considered that evidence and still concludes that Snape is trustworthy?

And that goes for the theory that Snape delayed, too. Dumbledore knows exactly what Snape did, how long it apparently took Snape to figure things out, how long it took him to get the message to the Order, etc. Dumbledore knows the timeline better than we do. He still trusts Snape. Between that and the fact that it was absolutely crucial for the drama that the Order arrived when they did, I really just think you're reading too much into the delay. Heck, even Harry knew how long it had been and stuff, and HE didn't even think it odd that the Order got there when they did.

Also, how exactly does it make sense for Snape, if he's working for himself (or for Voldemort), to alert the Order but do so hours after he could have? It would be to keep Dumbledore's trust, right? I would say, though, that he'd have a better chance at explaining to Dumbledore why he had no idea that Harry was gone than he would have at explaining to Dumbledore why it took him hours longer than it should have to figure out that Harry was gone. If he had done nothing, Harry would probably be dead and no one would realize Harry gave Snape the coded message. I'm pretty sure Snape could have convinced Dumbledore that Snape had no particular reason to be aware that Harry had gone into the forest and not returned. And if it wasn't just to keep Dumbledore's trust, how is it in his interests to help the Order, but not help them ASAP? Essentially, what possible motivation could Snape have for helping the Order but delaying that help? I get how the delay can seem odd and questionable, but I don't get how the delay is evidence that Snape's loyalty is somewhere else.

Sorry, I understand what you mean now. They did not know where Harry was exactly, only that Harry had gone to the prophecy room in the DoM. Though, I'm sure with the commotion it would not have been hard to locate them, they weren't exactly quiet as a mouse.
I may be remembering it wrong, but I thought that when the Order burst through the door, the scene in the veil room actually WAS pretty quiet. By that point, Harry had pretty much lost and had nowhere to go, right? I should go back and re-read that...

Personally, I believe — and have since I read the book — that Snape is evil. Not really EVIL, precisely, you understand. Like I said, I think he could be redeemed (or even prove not to be guilty at all; though I’m not inclined to think that way at the moment). I just like to use the word ‘evil’ to express what I do believe were not good intentions. I believe this for a number of reasons. My strongest reason (to me anyway) is that Snape is a Slytherin, and that the Sorting Hat is always right (according to JKR herself), and if that is true, then I feel that it means that Snape’s strongest characteristic influences will always end up being that he is power-hungry and out for himself. To me, this leans the debate more to the side of Snape having chose Voldemort. I have a strong suspicion that Snape is neither wholly evil nor wholly good. He is, in fact, a true Slytherin. Sirius makes a comment in Chapter 14 (”Percy and Padfoot”) of Order of the Phoenix that really stands out to me. He says (in reference to Umbridge) that “the world isn’t split into good people and Death Eaters.” I think there are “middle of the road” people that ride the fence and wait to see who the victor will be. When it comes to Snape, I think he is loyal to both Dumbledore and Lord Voldemort. He is one of the most conniving, manipulative, and formidable wizards we have encountered. I believe Snape acts as a catalyst. He feeds Dumbledore information. He feeds Lord Voldemort information, and all the while he is protecting his own neck. He is not the hero Sirius or Lupin is, by any means. But he is necessary; where would either of the groups be without him? T me, Snape comes across as a stereotypical lonely child who longs for a father’s love. Although the books never directly say it, we receive hints through Snape’s memories in OoTP that Snape’s muggle father was abusive and neglectful. This would explain why Snape has such a hatred for muggles. After leaving school, Snape sought a place where he could be accepted: by Voldemort’s side. Voldemort didn’t care about Snape, but I believe he was able to use his charm to make Snape feel wanted. This situation gave Snape a father figure that he could latch on to and show loyalty to. After telling Voldemort about the prophecy, I concluded that Snape obeyed Voldemort’s orders to go to Hogwarts as a spy just as a loyal son would do for a father. hen Snape entered Hogwarts he hated Dumbledore with a passion because Dumbledore was his “father’s” enemy, but after Voldemort’s disappearance Snape needed a new father figure in his life. This was the time in which Snape’s hatred turned into love. The kindness, trust, and respect that Dumbledore showed to Snape opened his eyes and he realized that Voldemort never truly loved him and that Dumbledore did love him. As Snape’s love began to grow, Snape began to see Dumbledore as his “true” father. Snape then devoted his life to protecting and obeying his new father. However, just as most people who long for a father and finally find one, he became overly protective and started to believe that Dumbledore belonged only to him. Enter Harry Potter. Snape became jealous of Harry because Dumbledore seemed to pay more attention to Harry than him. Dumbledore also tended to side with Harry whenever it was a choice between Harry and Snape. I realized Snape was jealous of Harry when I got to GOF on page 679, “Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room.” For the longest time I didn’t pay this any attention, until I realized that the Foe-Glass doesn’t show you your own reflection. The glass shows a foggy cloud with hidden faces in it. The faces of your enemies will become clearer the closer they are to you. Since Snape’s face was in the Foe-Glass I realized that he was his own worst enemy, or should I say, the jealousy within him was his worst enemy. Dumbledore then made a grave mistake, he told Snape to go back to Voldemort, the only other person that Snape had considered a father-figure. This was when Snape started to change. His jealousy for Harry, his resentment while thinking that Dumbledore loved Harry more than him, and Voldemort being able to charm Snape and pretend to be “fatherly” again all came pouring out of him. Snape then betrayed Dumbledore out of ENVY and in spite of his own feelings. Snape had a look of “revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face” (HBP, pg 595). This was an all inclusive hatred in Snape’s face. He was remembering all of the bad things that he had faced in his life: having a muggle father who didn’t love him and abused him, being an outcast at school, meeting Voldemort and finding out that Voldemort didn’t love him, falling in love with Dumbledore and then letting his envy shut his eyes to that love, hatred of Harry, hatred of himself, and a false sense of hatred for Dumbledore. Snape was in a state of momentary insanity. His envy had made him forget that he loved Dumbledore and he killed Dumbledore believing that Dumbledore had betrayed him and should die. I believe that Snape will be completely grief-stricken in book 7 because he will finally come to his senses. He will realize how childish he had been to believe that Dumbledore didn’t love him and will seek penance.

Sirius is a member of the order, to attack/ambush/trap a member of the order, you are fighting the order, therefore you are fighting Dumbledore. What is the instance you are talking about here?

Dumbledore knows Snape let his personal pain, and his dislike for James and Sirius get in the way. Snape taunted Sirius and stopped teaching Occlumency to Harry, and Dumbledore knows all of that, but still trusts Snape completely. How can we explain Dumbledore continuing to trust Snape if you're right, without asserting that Dumbledore missed these obvious points?

See this is why I love the Snape/Lily theories. What peice of evidence does Dumbledore have that tells him Snape is loyal? As of right now, the fact that he felt remorse for the Potter's death, which doesn't make sense seeing how as of right now James and Snape hated eachother and Lily and Snape never talked.

What is the instance you are talking about here?
We were talking about how Snape taunted Sirius, which is probably at least partly responsible for Sirius going to the Ministry and dying.

We were talking about how Snape taunted Sirius, which is probably at least partly responsible for Sirius going to the Ministry and dying.Of course Snape is responsible for that, but he didn't know Sirius was going to do that.

I used to thing that Dumbledore was begging Snape to do what he promised to do (in which case he is Good) but whe I reread it resently it almost seemed that Dumbledore was defeated and realised Snape has betayed him. It seamed almost like a father's dissapointment in the way a son has turned out.

woah woah woah
why dont i remember dumbledore sending a phoenix patronous in GOF??
i recently read an interview in which she wouldnt say what his patronus or boggart was

how would snape be good if he killed dumbledor!? like harry, i see no loop-hole of how this didn't happen.

woah woah woah
why dont i remember dumbledore sending a phoenix patronous in GOF??
i recently read an interview in which she wouldnt say what his patronus or boggart wasNo, she confirmed that his Patronus is a phoenix, she will not say his boggart or what he sees in the Mirror of Erised.

I used to thing that Dumbledore was begging Snape to do what he promised to do (in which case he is Good) but whe I reread it resently it almost seemed that Dumbledore was defeated and realised Snape has betayed him. It seamed almost like a father's dissapointment in the way a son has turned out.I like this interpretation. I also thought that he was begging him not to ruin Draco's chances of being hidden and his own (meaning Snape's) future by becoming a murderer.

First I would like to say that I thought that we had laid the timing issue to rest, seeing as no one seems to have issue with it but us. Dumbledore, Harry, nor any of the other Order members question Snape's timing here. And I have to agree with Idabomb333 that we have no idea what would be considered reasonable time to wait to figure out Harry had not come back to the school.

Another thing that I think was discussed before was the fact that Sirius would have gone to the MoM without goading if he thought that Harry was in trouble, rules be damned. I think that Snape is a pretty smart cookie. Personally, I think Snape knew that too. I really do think that he was trying to give Sirius something to do to try to keep him out of harm's way. But the relationship between he and Sirius did not allow him to just let it go. I think that he was really trying to help DD there. Maybe I am alone on that one.

And emotional mistakes...I think Dumbledore's biggest emotional mistake is his attachment to Harry. I think that it tends to cloud his judgement.

Another thing that I think was discussed before was the fact that Sirius would have gone to the MoM without goading if he thought that Harry was in trouble, rules be damned. I think that Snape is a pretty smart cookie. Personally, I think Snape knew that too. I really do think that he was trying to give Sirius something to do to try to keep him out of harm's way. But the relationship between he and Sirius did not allow him to just let it go. I think that he was really trying to help Dumbledore there. Maybe I am alone on that one.



I agree that Snape had to have known what Sirius' reaction would be. He just didn't want to miss an opportunity to lash out at Sirius' (over-sensitive) ego. But I really don't think that there was any way he could have known that he would be killed. But, like Harry, I also think that he wasn't upset by his death in the least. Personally, I belong to the "Snape is still on the good side" camp.
But as JKR herself has pointed out, he's not a "Nice" guy. In POA, he was perfectly willing to lead Sirius to a Dementors kiss, even though he had overheard the truth about Peter Pettigrew. As I've pointed out before, just because he may seem evil, doesn't mean that he can't be working for the good guys.

Another thing that I think was discussed before was the fact that Sirius would have gone to the MoM without goading if he thought that Harry was in trouble, rules be damned. I think that Snape is a pretty smart cookie. Personally, I think Snape knew that too. I really do think that he was trying to give Sirius something to do to try to keep him out of harm's way. But the relationship between he and Sirius did not allow him to just let it go. I think that he was really trying to help DD there. Maybe I am alone on that one.You mean in the sense of: Snape knew Sirius was going to the MoM anyway so it would do no harm to push it a little bit by goading him?:D
I imagine Snape was on the side of the Order, wanted to help Dumbledore, did not actively make Sirius to the MoM, but did not really care if Sirius went or not and if Sirius came to harm as a consequence.

I´m pretty sure Snape, mostly out of his animosity, did not consider Sirius as a valuable Order member, since Sirius´operting range was quite restricted because he was bound to Grimmauld Place. Thus Snape didn´t think of him in terms of: Oh he is such an important Order member, though I loathe him, I have to protect him from harm in any case. I think Snape just didn´t give a damn about Sirius. I don´t know if Snape really can be considered to be at least partly respoinsible for Sirius´death. He did not kill him (that was Bellatrix), Siriurs is grown-up after all and it was his own decision to go.

And emotional mistakes...I think Dumbledore's biggest emotional mistake is his attachment to Harry. I think that it tends to cloud his judgement.Agreed. That was absoluely an emotional mistake. But I think Dumbledore just couldn´t help to feel attached to Harry.

I imagine Snape was on the side of the Order, wanted to help Dumbledore, did not actively make Sirius to the MoM, but did not really care if Sirius went or not and if Sirius came to harm as a consequence.

I´m pretty sure Snape, mostly out of his animosity, did not consider Sirius as a valuable Order member, since Sirius´operting range was quite restricted because he was bound to Grimmauld Place. Thus Snape didn´t think of him in terms of: Oh he is such an important Order member, though I loathe him, I have to protect him from harm in any case. I think Snape just didn´t give a damn about Sirius. I don´t know if Snape really can be considered to be at least partly respoinsible for Sirius´death. He did not kill him (that was Bellatrix), Siriurs is grown-up after all and it was his own decision to go.
I agree, and well said. And even if Snape did what he did in the hopes that Sirius would go to the MoM and harm would come to Sirius, he could not have known that Sirius would die. In fact, it makes sense to think that having another wizard there, even if Snape underestimates Sirius's talents, would benefit the Order.

But the bottom line, again, is that Dumbledore knows about all that and still trusts Snape completely in HBP.

Dumbledore knows Snape let his personal pain, and his dislike for James and Sirius get in the way. Snape taunted Sirius and stopped teaching Occlumency to Harry, and Dumbledore knows all of that, but still trusts Snape completely.

Dumbledore trusts Snape completely agreed. :tu: However, in OOTP and PoA, Snape does not do what is right, but rather is more concerned for what he would like. It doesn't necessarily mean that Snape is not trustworthy, just that Snape is capable to turning to side with his personal matters rather than the larger picture.

Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, doesn't mean that Snape has to be totally trustworthy. Dumbledore would have known about the personal issues and it would be just like Dumbledore to believe that the better half of Snape will win out. :shrug:

Dumbledore trusts Snape completely agreed. :tu: However, in OOTP and PoA, Snape does not do what is right, but rather is more concerned for what he would like. It doesn't necessarily mean that Snape is not trustworthy, just that Snape is capable to turning to side with his personal matters rather than the larger picture.

Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, doesn't mean that Snape has to be totally trustworthy. Dumbledore would have known about the personal issues and it would be just like Dumbledore to believe that the better half of Snape will win out. :shrug:
Yes it would be... which wasn't the best thing for him to do...

Also, I noticed something rather unsettling that Dumbledore told Harry during one of their lessons... he said that Dippet trusted Tom Riddle [aka:Voldemort] completely and he was sure of his honesty... sound like anyone we know... this does not bode well for us and hopefully history will not repeat itself.

First I would like to say that I thought that we had laid the timing issue to rest, seeing as no one seems to have issue with it but us. Dumbledore, Harry, nor any of the other Order members question Snape's timing here. And I have to agree with Idabomb333 that we have no idea what would be considered reasonable time to wait to figure out Harry had not come back to the school.
I personally believe that JKR wrote the scene exactly with the time issue so that we couldn’t figure out Snape’s real part in all this.

And the fact that Dumbledore doesn’t question Snape’s timing doesn’t really solve this puzzle. I am not completely sure if Dumbledore knows how much time had elapsed. Who told him? Harry didn’t. The question is what Snape told him about the time he took between sending the two different messages. By the way: the fact that Snape already had an answer to his first message when he left for the forest shows us that the messages are fast: already Snape’s message had reached the headquarters and the return message as well. And if there is any chance that a message is too slow Snape could have used Umbridge’s fireplace; it was not guarded and Umbridge wasn’t present.

The other thing which makes me doubt is that we don’t see Voldemort being surprised about the order turning up. Why doesn’t he (or Bella for that matter) ask who warned the order? Do they perhaps now who did that?

And the last point which makes me doubt is that Snape specifically states that his orders were to remain behind. Snape getting orders to stay behind? This indicates that he knew about the plan to capture the prophecy…

Hi everybody! This is my first post here! Anyways... wow, I can't believe there are still people who've haven't been bombarded with this the way we all were with "OMG Snape kills Dumbledore",... but JKR made public coments about Snape being evil vs Snape being good earlier this month at a public benefit. Also she made statements about Dumbledore live vs dead.

Below are some links, so if you don't really want to know it won't be ruined for you.
BTW I realise that some people still won't want to believe, or will say that what she says is too vague, but it seems pretty straight forward to me.

SPOILERS FOR BOOK 7 CONTAINED IN LINKS BELOW
hindustantimes (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1760630,00110004.htm)
hpana (http://www.hpana.com/news.19531.html)
Transcript of event (http://www.hpana.com/news.19542.html)

Yes it would be... which wasn't the best thing for him to do...

Also, I noticed something rather unsettling that Dumbledore told Harry during one of their lessons... he said that Dippet trusted Tom Riddle [aka:Voldemort] completely and he was sure of his honesty... sound like anyone we know... this does not bode well for us and hopefully history will not repeat itself.

That's a very good point :tu:

But :eyebrows:

There is a big difference in personalities of the people that are being completely trusted by their respective current headmasters.

Tom has never known love and is beyond redemption. As JK has told us in an interview.

Snape has loved and knows love and has a redemptive pattern about him. As also confirmed in a JK interview. ;)

There is a big difference in personalities of the people that are being completely trusted by their respective current headmasters.
There's also a significant difference between Dumbledore and Dippet, presumably. I think it's pretty clear that Dumbledore is smarter and wiser.

I personally believe that JKR wrote the scene exactly with the time issue so that we couldn’t figure out Snape’s real part in all this.
I think it was because if the Order had arrived at any other time, the suspense would have been far less extreme.

And the fact that Dumbledore doesn’t question Snape’s timing doesn’t really solve this puzzle. I am not completely sure if Dumbledore knows how much time had elapsed. Who told him? Harry didn’t. The question is what Snape told him about the time he took between sending the two different messages.
But it isn't even just Dumbledore. The whole Order knows Snape told them, and they didn't seem surprised to find the battle almost over when they reached it. Harry knows how long it's been, and doesn't question Snape's timing even though he looks for every possible reason to think Snape's bad.

Also, Dumbledore apparently got his information about the events of the evening from Kreacher, not Snape. He might not have asked Harry about the exact times, but he must know that Harry and co. reached the MoM on thestrals and had been fighting the DEs for a while before the Order arrived. That strikes us as a little odd, but it doesn't appear to be notable to Dumbledore.

By the way: the fact that Snape already had an answer to his first message when he left for the forest shows us that the messages are fast: already Snape’s message had reached the headquarters and the return message as well.
Huh? I don't remember getting the impression that there was any return message needed. Snape simply informed them of the situation, including that he was going to go to the forest to look for Harry, and requested that Sirius stay back... Why couldn't it have been all in one message?

The other thing which makes me doubt is that we don’t see Voldemort being surprised about the order turning up. Why doesn’t he (or Bella for that matter) ask who warned the order? Do they perhaps now who did that?
Who would they ask? Harry? He doesn't know. Dumbledore? The Order? And Bellatrix wouldn't know by the end of the MoM scene even if Snape had told Voldemort.

Plus, he wouldn't know whether Harry or someone else at Hogwarts could have sent the message to the Order. And Dumbledore interrogated Kreacher. The Order could have done that themselves, for example, if Sirius had guessed that Kreacher injured Buckbeak on purpose.

And finally, if Snape had told Voldemort that he sent the Order, several things would have been different. Snape would very probably be dead, because the prophecy was Voldemort's highest priority. Bella very likely would have asked about that in Spinner's End. Voldemort would not have been surprised that Dumbledore himself was there, and probably would not have even gone to the MoM himself.

And the last point which makes me doubt is that Snape specifically states that his orders were to remain behind. Snape getting orders to stay behind? This indicates that he knew about the plan to capture the prophecy…
Of course he knew about the plan to capture the prophecy. That's why the Order knew of the plan to capture the prophecy, and it's why Harry was supposed to learn Occlumency. Several other DEs were sent to the MoM, but Snape wasn't among them, as he explains to Bella, because that would spoil his spying role.

However, in OOTP and PoA, Snape does not do what is right, but rather is more concerned for what he would like. I would say that is just human nature. :D

There is a big difference in personalities of the people that are being completely trusted by their respective current headmasters.

Tom has never known love and is beyond redemption. As JK has told us in an interview.

Snape has loved and knows love and has a redemptive pattern about him. As also confirmed in a JK interview. Yes, plus Riddle/Voldemort is surrounded by people who fear him.
Snape on the other hand has gained the trust of Dumbledore and the respect and appreciation of his fellow teachers.

But it isn't even just Dumbledore. The whole Order knows Snape told them, and they didn't seem surprised to find the battle almost over when they reached it. Harry knows how long it's been, and doesn't question Snape's timing even though he looks for every possible reason to think Snape's bad.I agree. Harry would be the first one to approach Dumbledore and question the order of events if he supposed there was something fishy about it.

I thought Snape was always good. Mabey I was wrong?

That's a very good point :tu:

But :eyebrows:

There is a big difference in personalities of the people that are being completely trusted by their respective current headmasters.

Tom has never known love and is beyond redemption. As JK has told us in an interview.

Snape has loved and knows love and has a redemptive pattern about him. As also confirmed in a JK interview. ;)
That's good - one thing that I have noticed is that when there are 2 similar things happening in the series, one's usually the opposite of the other, for example, Voldemort was afraid of death, was reborn physically; yet Dumbledore was not afraid of death and thinks that it's the next great adventure.

Dumbledore was not afraid of death and thinks that it's the next great adventure.



Exactly, this is why I can't believe that he was pleading for his life on that tower. It goes against his character to be afraid of death.

Exactly, this is why I can't believe that he was pleading for his life on that tower. It goes against his character to be afraid of death.
Yes it does, most likely he was pleading to Snape to kill him so that both him and Draco wouldn't suffer the effects of the Unbreakable Vow...

There's also a significant difference between Dumbledore and Dippet, presumably. I think it's pretty clear that Dumbledore is smarter and wiser.

Agreed :tu:

I think it was because if the Order had arrived at any other time, the suspense would have been far less extreme.

I agree, thought the wait would have been caused by something, which is more than likely Snape's delay in telling the Order about what was happening with Harry.

But it isn't even just Dumbledore. The whole Order knows Snape told them, and they didn't seem surprised to find the battle almost over when they reached it.

That Harry and Neville, both underaged wizards, were about to be overpowered by a couple of fully qualified death eaters. I wouldn't have been surprised either.

Harry knows how long it's been, and doesn't question Snape's timing even though he looks for every possible reason to think Snape's bad.

That would be because it was happening so fast. One minute they are in Umbridges room and Harry sees Snape leave with a smirk on his face, the next they are surrounded by centaurs, then next landing at the telephone booth in London on threstrals, then fighting death eaters. We the readers however remember everything.

Dumbledore cut off that line of questioning when he said that Snape waited for them to come out of the forest. Though, it's seems to me too long a wait to get a message off, but Harry desperately looking for accusations to cast Snape's way, looked for the next accusation.

Harry wasn't exactly rational at the time, so obviously he wasn't thinking about it, just the next accusation to toss Snape's way.

Also, Dumbledore apparently got his information about the events of the evening from Kreacher, not Snape. He might not have asked Harry about the exact times, but he must know that Harry and co. reached the MoM on thestrals and had been fighting the DEs for a while before the Order arrived.

Actually, from what Dumbledore said about what Kreacher was saying, is that the order had gone to get Harry, who was mislead into believing that Sirius was trapped by Voldemort in the DoM and that Kreacher knew Sirius would not be coming back. I never got the impression anyway, that Kreacher told Dumbledore that they had been fighting for awhile before the Order arrived.

Plus, he wouldn't know whether Harry or someone else at Hogwarts could have sent the message to the Order. And Dumbledore interrogated Kreacher. The Order could have done that themselves, for example, if Sirius had guessed that Kreacher injured Buckbeak on purpose.

Knowing Sirius, he would not have stopped to pause and ask Kreacher anything. Harry was in danger and maybe killed, it would have been more characteristic that Sirius insisted that he go and they go now, exactly as Harry had done when he believed Sirius was being tortured by Voldemort.

And finally, if Snape had told Voldemort that he sent the Order, several things would have been different. Snape would very probably be dead, because the prophecy was Voldemort's highest priority. Bella very likely would have asked about that in Spinner's End. Voldemort would not have been surprised that Dumbledore himself was there, and probably would not have even gone to the MoM himself.

Agreed :tu: very good points ;)

Of course he knew about the plan to capture the prophecy. That's why the Order knew of the plan to capture the prophecy, and it's why Harry was supposed to learn Occlumency. Several other DEs were sent to the MoM, but Snape wasn't among them, as he explains to Bella, because that would spoil his spying role.

Exactly, he knew of the plan, he knows what Harry is like, yet he waited a very long time before letting anyone know.

I would say that is just human nature. :D

It's our choices that define us. Snape's choices are according to the situation are based on what is best for him and not for the cause. Meaning, Snape can be bad or on LV's side if it is suited to the situation. :evil:

Yes, plus Riddle/Voldemort is surrounded by people who fear him.
Snape on the other hand has gained the trust of Dumbledore and the respect and appreciation of his fellow teachers.

Not exactly. He has gained the trust of DD's.

The rest of the order trust DD's judgment and therefore respect Snape accordingly. However, they never really trusted him, it is evident in the chapter 'Phoenix Lament' that they believed DD's word that Snape was good and that was enough for them to accept it. Meaning that they believed DD's claim that Snape was good and they trusted that, not Snape himself, but DD's word.

Two very, very different things. To trust someone on your own accord and to believe in someone's word.

Harry would be the first one to approach Dumbledore and question the order of events if he supposed there was something fishy about it.

But that is not what happened. Dumbledore had locked Harry in his office, Harry was mourning, in shock and angry. There was no calm approach anywhere. :eyebrows:

I've always believed that Snape is good and that he will help Harry in the final battle.

Yes it does, most likely he was pleading to Snape to kill him so that both him and Draco wouldn't suffer the effects of the Unbreakable Vow...

Exactly :tu: It is characteristic of Dumbledore to make a sacrifice for others. We see this and he even says so in the cave scene with Harry. ;)

Exactly :tu: It is characteristic of Dumbledore to make a sacrifice for others. We see this and he even says so in the cave scene with Harry. ;)
Yeah, that's why so many people, myself included, look up to Dumbledore!

Yes it does, most likely he was pleading to Snape to kill him so that both him and Draco wouldn't suffer the effects of the Unbreakable Vow...
But the theme of the book is about choices and about doing what is easy or what is right. Dumbledore can't be the fall guy for everyone who makes a wrong choice. Murder is wrong. Snape was wrong to take the unbreakable vow to kill him. Draco has become a Death Eater. Dumbledore's death does not save Death Eaters from the power of Voldemort. He is the only one with control over his Death Eaters, not Dumbledore. Draco's only hope was to be hidden. Dumbledore's death could not save Draco. And Snape is a fully grown wizard who made a bad decision. Why should Dumbledore die for that?

But the theme of the book is about choices and about doing what is easy or what is right. Dumbledore can't be the fall guy for everyone who makes a wrong choice. Murder is wrong. Snape was wrong to take the unbreakable vow to kill him. Draco has become a Death Eater. Dumbledore's death does not save Death Eaters from the power of Voldemort. He is the only one with control over his Death Eaters, not Dumbledore. Draco's only hope was to be hidden. Dumbledore's death could not save Draco. And Snape is a fully grown wizard who made a bad decision. Why should Dumbledore die for that?
Snape took the Vow in order to protect Draco... Murder may have been the wrong thing for Snape to have done... but perhaps both him and Dumbledore talked it over, since he [Dumbledore] was weaker than he used to be and Voldemort almost killed him back in OOTP. I think that he knew that his life was in danger and that he was vulnerable as well and that he would rather be killed by someone he trusted completely [Snape ;)], than an enemy [Death Eaters and Voldemort], in order to protect Draco. And remember, he always had the safety of his staff and students at the forefront of his conscience and it was always paramount to him :).

It's our choices that define us. Snape's choices are according to the situation are based on what is best for him and not for the cause. Meaning, Snape can be bad or on LV's side if it is suited to the situation. :evil:Agreed. But still human nature. Snape is Snape. He is not the classical good guy, he might follow his own agenda to a certain extent, he is by far no angel, but nevertheless is it possible that he is still on the good side, IMO.

Not exactly. He has gained the trust of DD's.True. I do see that there is a difference between trusting someone because someone else says so or on your own accord, but I think that is not so important in this case. Over the course of the 15 years Snape teaches at Hogwarts he must have become an accepted member of the staff and gained some respect from his colleagues. At least that is the impression I always got.

But that is not what happened. Dumbledore had locked Harry in his office, Harry was mourning, in shock and angry. There was no calm approach anywhere. :eyebrows:You´re correct. The situation at the end of OOtP might not have provided Harry the time or the state of mind to think logically about all that. But later on he must have thought about the events of the MoM over and over again. In HBP Harry was constantly suspicious of Snape, he addressed Dumbledore several times with that issue, if Harry at one point had come to the conclusion that Snape must have waited inappropriately long to inform the Order on that night he would have mentioned that.

Agreed. But still human nature. Snape is Snape. He is not the classical good guy, he might follow his own agenda to a certain extent, he is by far no angel, but nevertheless is it possible that he is still on the good side, IMO.

True. I do see that there is a difference between trusting someone because someone else says so or on your own accord, but I think that is not so important in this case. Over the course of the 15 years Snape teaches at Hogwarts he must have become an accepted member of the staff and gained some respect from his colleagues. At least that is the impression I always got.

You´re correct. The situation at the end of OOtP might not have provided Harry the time or the state of mind to think logically about all that. But later on he must have thought about the events of the MoM over and over again. In HBP Harry was constantly suspicious of Snape, he addressed Dumbledore several times with that issue, if Harry at one point had come to the conclusion that Snape must have waited inappropriately long to inform the Order on that night he would have mentioned that.
I agree with you on this, ronjalina. Just because he isn't the traditional "good" guy, doesn't mean that he isn't on the good side. IMO, he's what I consider to be an anti-hero, someone who is on the side of the good guys, who just doesn't share the traditional heroic qualities ;).

Agreed. But still human nature. Snape is Snape. He is not the classical good guy, he might follow his own agenda to a certain extent, he is by far no angel, but nevertheless is it possible that he is still on the good side, IMO.

Agreed :tu: It is Snape's choice to be a saddistic person, that isn't very nice :evil:

True. I do see that there is a difference between trusting someone because someone else says so or on your own accord, but I think that is not so important in this case. Over the course of the 15 years Snape teaches at Hogwarts he must have become an accepted member of the staff and gained some respect from his colleagues. At least that is the impression I always got.

The big difference is that if that person was not there, no one would trust you. Just like in HBP, Dumbledore is killed and everyone, starts voicing their real opinion of Snape, which is distrust Snape being a 'former' death eater and all.

Though, his talents can always be respected or resented :shrug: But respect and trust are definately two different things.

But later on he must have thought about the events of the MoM over and over again. In HBP Harry was constantly suspicious of Snape, he addressed Dumbledore several times with that issue, if Harry at one point had come to the conclusion that Snape must have waited inappropriately long to inform the Order on that night he would have mentioned that.

Actually, Harry was too busy grieving, he was too busy thinking about the loss of the man that was almost like a father and brother to him. By the time he had gotten over this, he was not longer looking for excuses or ways for Sirius to come back to him, he was more worried about his life and his friends as Voldemort had moved into war mode. As the end of OOTP goes into the beginning of HBP.

I think he will come back to the good side.:nc:

You all seem to be stuck on the one fact that Dumbledore trusted Snape. However, you are all forgetting one thing: Dumbledore was always inclined to look for the best in people in the first place, and in a person like Snape, I think that you would have had to look very, very deep to find good. I just don't see how Dumbledore would have been able to look that far, what with Snape being as good an Occlumens as he is. Snape has proven himself to be rather touchy (*understatement*) about his past, and I don't think he would have let someone like Dumbledore see it. So, back to the fact that all of you who believe Snape is, or eventually will be, good cling to as if it were your very lives: Dumbledore trusted Snape. Big whoop. We all have seen that Dumbledore could be lied to, even though, granted, it is more difficult to lie to a Legilimens, as Dumbledore was. However, I believe that Snape's resolve was stronger than his.
Anyway, on to my second point. Those of you trying to convince us that Snape will eventually see the Light have very good arguments, citing many instances in the books and twisting them to make them fit your point of view. Myself, I think that you are looking for what is simply not there. JKR is good, but in all likelihood, not that good. She has not said that Snape is another one-dimensional character, like Malfoy, and thus we can't assume that, but still I cling to the firm belief that Snape is devoted to the Dark Lord. The only truly solid basis that I have for this is possibly the largest example of Snape being honest and truthful that we as readers have: his conversation with Bellatrix Lestrange in book six, chapter two. He is quite blatantly infatuated with the Dark Arts and the Dark Lord, because they are both so powerful. He truly believes that no one can overpower the Dark Lord, not even Dumbledore, in the end, though he does think Dumbledore could give him a run for his money. He is attracted to that enormous power, and he deeply admires the Dark Lord for being able to wield it so ably. I am inclined to think that in this conversation, we get a glimpse of the true Snape, because try as you might, you can't fake that kind of passion for something, at least, not convincingly. I'm sorry, guys, but I have to disagree with most of you--Snape is one of the "bad guys" and likely to stay that way. I think it would take a force much more powerful than anything any of our main characters can bring to bear on him to break his allegiance to the Dark Lord.

Let it be said that I say this without any of the usual bashing that Snape gets. He has been my favorite character from the very beginning--inexplicable and shocking, I know, but true--and I have watched him very closely. I love his character and the unique role he plays in these books, and I can't wait to see what JKR will use him for next.

So, back to the fact that all of you who believe Snape is, or eventually will be, good cling to as if it were your very lives: Dumbledore trusted Snape. Big whoop. We all have seen that Dumbledore could be lied to, even though, granted, it is more difficult to lie to a Legilimens, as Dumbledore was. However, I believe that Snape's resolve was stronger than his.



I'm not saying that Dumbledore can't make mistakes, I believe that Dumbledore knew more about Snape than what he told Harry. My reason for this, as I've stated before, is my belief that JKR would be irresponsible to show her millions of young fans that there are some people that don't deserve trust, or second chances. And that Dumbledore was ultimately a fool for believing so. To me, this doesn't seem very consistant with the theme of the books so far. The way that I see it, is that the moral of this story (as corny as it may be) is "Love Conquers All", or "Good Triumphs over Evil". Not, "A Leopard Can't Change It's Spots".

Now I'm perfectly willing to admit that I might be wrong, but I will be disappointed in JKR if Dumbledore was wrong to give Snape a second chance. But hey, it's her book.

The only truly solid basis that I have for this is possibly the largest example of Snape being honest and truthful that we as readers have: his conversation with Bellatrix Lestrange in book six, chapter two.


You're working on the assumption that Snape was being honest, and truthful. He's definitely a spy for one side or the other, but if he's on Dumbledores' side, would he have said anything differently in that conversation than if were on Voldemorts' side?

Obviously, Snape has been lying to some-one. Either Dumbledore, or Voldemort. Personally, I think it would be harder to lie to Dumbledore, who understands both good, and evil, than Voldemort, who only understands evil.

You're working on the assumption that Snape was being honest, and truthful. He's definitely a spy for one side or the other, but if he's on Dumbledores' side, would he have said anything differently in that conversation than if were on Voldemorts' side?

Obviously, Snape has been lying to some-one. Either Dumbledore, or Voldemort. Personally, I think it would be harder to lie to Dumbledore, who understands both good, and evil, than Voldemort, who only understands evil.
Interesting that Voldemort is not inclined to trust. Voldemort wants certainty. That is one of the reasons I think Snape didn’t lie to Bella. All the facts he mentioned could be checked with Voldemort. Since Voldemort is not inclined to trust he would be willing to listen. Narcissa, Bella or Wormtail could have access to Voldemort at one point. Snape, whatever side he is working for, is just nor stupid enough to lie.

I agree however that this is not in itself proof enough to know he is not on Dumbledore’s side. There are however some remarks in this conversation which points that way. His Emmeline Vance remark is a pointer of him not being on Dumbledore’s side. It is little things like these which shows us which direction JKR is taking Snape.
My reason for this, as I've stated before, is my belief that JKR would be irresponsible to show her millions of young fans that there are some people that don't deserve trust, or second chances. And that Dumbledore was ultimately a fool for believing so.
This is rather simplistic reasoning if I may say so. Snape is a bullying, sadistic teacher who abuses his power according to JKR. I could just turn your statement around and say that it is irresponsible of JKR to show all those fans that it is okay to be bully etc. as long as you are on the good side.

But the real simplicity of arguments like these lies in the fact that JKR paints her characters in shades of grey, not in absolute evil or good terms. There are different sides to each and every personality, they are torn by different motivations. In terms of loyalty she has painted Snape as a character with many different sides, both good and bad sides. His story wouldn’t be cheapened if he ultimately chooses to be a bad guy, it doesn’t sent a message that no second chances are necessary, nor that trust isn’t needed and it certainly doesn’t sent the message Dumbledore was a fool. It would only send the message that Dumbledore was human, capable of making mistakes.

This is rather simplistic reasoning if I may say so. Snape is a bullying, sadistic teacher who abuses his power according to JKR. I could just turn your statement around and say that it is irresponsible of JKR to show all those fans that it is okay to be bully etc. as long as you are on the good side.
.


My reasoning may be simplistic, but the majority of JKRs' readers are children, and they, for the most part, think in simplistic terms. Good and evil, black and white. And I think by showing that a bullying, sadistic teacher can be on the good side, may be JKRs way of teaching them that you can't always judge a person by their actions. But if Snape does turn out to be evil, it's as if she's saying that, indeed you can, judge some-one on outward appearances.

Now as I'm an adult, I admit that many times people are exactly as they appear. I just think it unwise to instill such cynicism in young minds. My ex-neighbor is a twelve year old Harry Potter fan, and she's always hated Dumbledore. And one of her reasons was because he trusted Snape, when to her it was obvious that he was evil. Now she's convinced that she was right to think Dumbledore an idiot for believing in Snape. I just don't think this is a healthy attitude for a twelve year old to have.

Agreed :tu: It is Snape's choice to be a saddistic person, that isn't very nice :evil: No, he is definately not a nice person.

The big difference is that if that person was not there, no one would trust you. Just like in HBP, Dumbledore is killed and everyone, starts voicing their real opinion of Snape, which is distrust Snape being a 'former' death eater and all.

Though, his talents can always be respected or resented :shrug: But respect and trust are definately two different things.
Basically, I aboslutely agree with you. I just wanted to point out the difference between Snape and Voldemort. The latter is surrounded by people who clearly fear him because they know whenever they displease the Dark Lord they lose their lives. Snape is surrounded by colleagues who might not trust them on their own account but over the course of the years his fellow teachers have come to accept Snape as their colleague. Even if not completely trusted Snape nevertheless is regarded as an "equal".

Actually, Harry was too busy grieving, he was too busy thinking about the loss of the man that was almost like a father and brother to him.Yes, and part of this thinking about his loss would be thinking the events of that night at the MoM over and over again. At least that´s how I imagine it.

Interesting that Voldemort is not inclined to trust. Voldemort wants certainty. That is one of the reasons I think Snape didn’t lie to Bella. All the facts he mentioned could be checked with Voldemort.
Voldemort would know all the things that happened at Hogwarts and between Dumbledore and Snape only from Snape himself. Thus he would not be able to prove that Snape had lied. One thing Snape said at Spinner´s End was definately true: All he told Bella he had previously already told the Dark Lord and the fact that Snape is still alive has to mean that Voldemort believed Snape´s explanations.
Snape, whatever side he is working for, is just nor stupid enough to lie. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me but maybe I just misunderstood. As Grim_Reapster said, whatever side Snape spies for he has to lie to the other side he is not working for. If Snape works for Dumbledore (what I assume obviously) it would have been equalled suicide to tell Bella the truth at Spinner´s End. But I agree, Snape would never lie to Bellatrix about something that could be checked with Voldemort. We must not forget that Snape is a clever and eloquent bloke and as I have already said in one of my previous posts, I think Snape had reckoned with the possibility that one of the Death Eaters might question him sometime and had already played that scenario through in his mind.

In the end there are two options regarding Spinner´s End

1. Snape works for Dumbledore and lied to Bellatrix
2. Snape works for Voldemort and told Bellatrix the truth

Whichever theory one believes in - Snape is good or Snape is bad - one can interpret Spinner´s End either way.

Spinner´s End might not be the best "place" so to say to evaluate whether Snape is bad or evil, IMO.

Whoa I have been on this forum since like..the dawn of time. :clap:
Anyways back to business.
So I have read every single page on this thread...and yet after what..3 versions of it, there is no verdict?
What does this tell us?
I personally hope that Snape is good...but I don't know if I expect it.
There is a lot we don't know about Snape, and the information that we are given is clearly placed so that it could go either way.
I just can't accept Dumbledore dying that way.
He is such a powerful wizard; a man whom everyone respects, and yet, still a very human man, and watching him die like that was heartbreaking.
Thats why I want to believe that Snape is good; as someone said a while back, out of respect for Dumbledore. If he was in fact pleading for Snape to save Harry and let him go, then I think that would have died in a brave and noble man. He would have be dying for what he believed in.
And I do think Dumbledore is a very human character so he could have made a mistake, and he has made them before, but being fooled for so long...that mistake could have saved his life. And if Snape turns out to be a bad person, then all of Dumbledore's belief in second chances and seeing the best in people; the thing that has taken Harry so far...that would turn out to be a great weakness?
I just can't accept it.

No, he is definately not a nice person.


Basically, I aboslutely agree with you. I just wanted to point out the difference between Snape and Voldemort. The latter is surrounded by people who clearly fear him because they know whenever they displease the Dark Lord they lose their lives. Snape is surrounded by colleagues who might not trust them on their own account but over the course of the years his fellow teachers have come to accept Snape as their colleague. Even if not completely trusted Snape nevertheless is regarded as an "equal".

Completely agree :tu:

Snape is not a nice person, evidence is the whole series till now :rotfl:

Definately Snape was surrounded by people that respected his talents and treated him like an equal, though not necessarily trusting him on their own belief, but on the word of a very well respected leader.

Which is unlike Voldemort who is surrounded by those that fear him or clearly deluded, I'm talking about Bella and Crouch Jnr.

Yes, and part of this thinking about his loss would be thinking the events of that night at the MoM over and over again. At least that´s how I imagine it.

Actually, Harry tells Dumbledore himself that he had accepted Sirius death and that life is too short. He was not looking for excuses anymore, that is part of acceptance and we see this again when Harry accepts DD's death, but is now determined to kill both Snape and Voldemort, the two men that have in a way, taken away those that Harry loved, James, Lily, Sirius and Dumbledore.

Hi keevil, what this lengthy thread says it that JKR is good at what she does. She has written a cerefully balanced character designed to be confusing. But I agree with you that Snape turning out bad would send all the wrong messgaes, and goes against what she said herself ages ago about the character:
Questioner: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. That's all I’m going to say.

I interpret that as meaning he did something bad, but he's going to make amends in what comes next, and that can only mean in book 7. But I also take it whatever he is making amends for happened before whatever book was out in 1999, which is when the quote is from. The only thing I can see which fits the bill is Lily's death. At the very least he is atoning for his part in that, when he tipped off Voldemort about the prophecy. But at the most, he never ever worked for Voldemort, and telling him about the prophecy was on Dumbledore's orders. Still leaves Snape with a debt to pay, and a nice object lesson to all the readers about having to make difficult choices which can unexpectedly come back and bite you. But in that case, his redemption would perhaps not be so much for bad things he has done himself, but rather his original redemption from being a typical Slytherin seeking to join the death eaters set at school, to a mature adult who sees Voldemort's plans as a very bad idea.

But the way I read it, Dumbledore was behaving like a marked man from the very start of book 6. That can only mean he was planning to die, and that can only mean Snape was in on it. I see absolutely no sense in Dumbledore arranging for Snape to kill him (D undoubtedly did arrange it), unless Snape was on the same side as Dumbledore. The only advantages I have seen suggested for Dumbledore from his death, the way it was stage-managed, lie in advancing Snape amongst the death eaters. Nothing else makes sense.

Hi keevil, what this lengthy thread says it that JKR is good at what she does. She has written a cerefully balanced character designed to be confusing. But I agree with you that Snape turning out bad would send all the wrong messgaes, and goes against what she said herself ages ago about the character:
Questioner: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. That's all I’m going to say.

I interpret that as meaning he did something bad, but he's going to make amends in what comes next, and that can only mean in book 7. But I also take it whatever he is making amends for happened before whatever book was out in 1999, which is when the quote is from. JK Rowling had a complete outline of the story and had actually written the last chapter before she had finished the first book. So whatever the thing that Snape is redeemed for doesn't necessarily have to had happen before she actually wrote the book that it happens in. So, the redemption could be from book 6.

Hi keevil, what this lengthy thread says it that JKR is good at what she does. She has written a cerefully balanced character designed to be confusing. But I agree with you that Snape turning out bad would send all the wrong messgaes, and goes against what she said herself ages ago about the character:
Questioner: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. That's all I’m going to say.

I interpret that as meaning he did something bad, but he's going to make amends in what comes next, and that can only mean in book 7. But I also take it whatever he is making amends for happened before whatever book was out in 1999, which is when the quote is from. The only thing I can see which fits the bill is Lily's death. At the very least he is atoning for his part in that, when he tipped off Voldemort about the prophecy. But at the most, he never ever worked for Voldemort, and telling him about the prophecy was on Dumbledore's orders. Still leaves Snape with a debt to pay, and a nice object lesson to all the readers about having to make difficult choices which can unexpectedly come back and bite you. But in that case, his redemption would perhaps not be so much for bad things he has done himself, but rather his original redemption from being a typical Slytherin seeking to join the death eaters set at school, to a mature adult who sees Voldemort's plans as a very bad idea.

Very well said. But, are you saying that Snape was never a death eater?
Or are you simply denying that all the bad things he has done were on Voldemort's orders?

But the way I read it, Dumbledore was behaving like a marked man from the very start of book 6. That can only mean he was planning to die, and that can only mean Snape was in on it. I see absolutely no sense in Dumbledore arranging for Snape to kill him (D undoubtedly did arrange it), unless Snape was on the same side as Dumbledore. The only advantages I have seen suggested for Dumbledore from his death, the way it was stage-managed, lie in advancing Snape amongst the death eaters. Nothing else makes sense
I really like what you said about the "marked man" thing. I felt this way the entire book..he seemed to know what was coming for him. The way he acted was what started the theories of him switching with certain people..and that it wasn't Dumbledore all along. I do not believe this, because I agree with what you said, all the evidence is there that Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and why would it be arranged if Snape was in fact on Voldemort's side.
:D


JK Rowling had a complete outline of the story and had actually written the last chapter before she had finished the first book. So whatever the thing that Snape is redeemed for doesn't necessarily have to had happen before she actually wrote the book that it happens in. So, the redemption could be from book 6.

By thinking that the redemption was from book 6...are you implying that Snape's redemption was in fact in direction to being loyal to Voldemort?
Or that killing Dumbledore was his last chance of saving Harry...or however you choose to interperet his redemption in book 6 if it was in fact for the good side.

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