Harry and Ginny -- Where to from here? v3

What do you mean by the "lupin/tonks parallel"? Like their relationship?
Well, to me there are a couple of obvious ones. Remus didn't want to get involved with Tonks because of the risk to her with his 'furry little problem', Harry walked away from Ginny because of his 'marked man' issue. Both of them have let love go to protect the object of their affections. The general consensus around here, barring a few folk still sailing on Egyptian river traffic, is that Harry's reasoning for walking away from Ginny is flawed. She isn't going to be any safer or any less a target not being Harry's girlfriend. What I think Harry has done here is as much about protecting himself as protecting her, so far he has seen those he's allowed to get close to him suffer and die and he doesn't want to put Ginny on that list.

The second parallel I think is forshadowing. We saw in Half Blood Prince that Tonks' unrequited love for Remus affected her skills and abilities. I suspect we may well see this happen to Harry at the start of book seven. IMO what we'll get to see is Harry, miserable and weakened by her absence in his life, get to see how Hermione and Ron have been strengthened by their own relationship. Maybe to the point where he struggles in a minor stoush and it's them that rescue him.

Well, to me there are a couple of obvious ones. Remus didn't want to get involved with Tonks because of the risk to her with his 'furry little problem', Harry walked away from Ginny because of his 'marked man' issue. Both of them have let love go to protect the object of their affections. The general consensus around here, barring a few folk still sailing on Egyptian river traffic, is that Harry's reasoning for walking away from Ginny is flawed. She isn't going to be any safer or any less a target not being Harry's girlfriend. What I think Harry has done here is as much about protecting himself as protecting her, so far he has seen those he's allowed to get close to him suffer and die and he doesn't want to put Ginny on that list.

The second parallel I think is forshadowing. We saw in Half Blood Prince that Tonks' unrequited love for Remus affected her skills and abilities. I suspect we may well see this happen to Harry at the start of book seven. IMO what we'll get to see is Harry, miserable and weakened by her absence in his life, get to see how Hermione and Ron have been strengthened by their own relationship. Maybe to the point where he struggles in a minor stoush and it's them that rescue him.


What he said. What's a stoush? (ignorant American asking)

It is not going to far to have ginny look at Harry with a 'soft loving' look instead of a 'hard blazing' look. But, that's Ginny for ya... Interesting but "soft loving look" sounds very insipid. I don't know why I love the hard blazing look so much. It's such a good description. It just seemed to show passion and intensity and once again I don't think "soft loving look" captures that. Soft loving look is used a lot in romance novels (which I will reiterate that Harry Potter is not despite how people behave) and I personally dislike that turn of phrase even though I'm sure Ginny has given Harry that look at some point. Really, is it required for JK to use terminologies we hear everyday or can she be allowed some originality?

My point is that if she wanted us to give credit to a Ginny-Harry relationship (which she evidently does), she should perhaps have developed either the relationship more (so we could see the 'fit' between them she has in mind) OR given Ginny a character more befitting of Harry. She didn't and most people just go along with her and create the scenarios she didn't develop in their minds. I did this also, but in MY scenario, Harry and Ginny wouldn't last more than 6 months - once the infatuation wore off, Harry would see her for what she is and that would be the end of it. Other people imagine some sort of improbable loving relationship between two hotheads...not my idea of fun, sorry. Who is this "she" you're referring to? Is it JK? You guys are so rude when you don't get your way. Tsch, tsch, tsch. Obviously this is just your opinion but it never ceases to be interesting and amusing how you all state it as if it is fact. Do you think Hermione would have been more suitable for Harry? How so? Help me to understand why based on Harry's treatment of Hermione in books 1-5 would indicate that he would be the kind of boyfriend that would be good for her. There was a whole thread on this before where they did not look at how the two would mesh together in a romantic setting but instead seem to think Harry and Hermione are suited simply because she has had the most "screen time" which I found endlessly stupid and difficult to argue with. They all seem to think the love is on a higher plain that precluded passion and romance but probably they would make love on a metaphysical level (I said it was stupid). I asked it then and I ask it now - why can't Harry to fall for the girl he wants and is attracted to and not the girl that is around the most? Another thing that I've found very weird about you all is that you don't seem to understand the concept of love at first sight or instant attraction. I don't know if this has to do with actual experience or what (I've noticed some adults saying these things as well so I don't know) why this seems bizarre and some sort of oddity. It happens in real life believe me. That is not fiction. If he hasn't known her forever, it's not true love :rolleyes: Although that doesn't really count against Ginny since she's actually known him longer than any other girl in the series.

Two hotheads in a relationship is not your idea of fun but people are different. You are not Harry and being a hothead is not the end of the world. Harry is not a hothead 24/7 and neither is Ginny. They do brash things very infrequently so I'm sure they'll manage. I won't go into how good and passionate relationship a couple as passionate as Harry and Ginny can have since you probably don't know (based on what you've been saying - I don't know you after all) but it's very good ;)

Cheers :tu:

There was a whole thread on this before where they did not look at how the two would mesh together in a romantic setting but instead seem to think Harry and Hermione are suited simply because she has had the most "screen time" which I found endlessly stupid and difficult to argue with. They all seem to think the love is on a higher plane that precluded passion and romance but probably they would make love on a metaphysical level (I said it was stupid).

I think you can blame this on fanfic. I've read very little of it, and all since Book 6 came out, but sometimes I just want to gag on the cloying romance in some of the stories. Then there's the heroine sacrificing everything for her man. As a woman, that just ticks me off.

But re: some of your other comments - I agree. JKR thinks Harry and Ginny are suited, and stating they aren't as fact is improper - it's just opinion. I'm not a soft, dreamy person, so that kind of relationship bores me. I'd much prefer some sparks.

It is not going to far to have ginny look at Harry with a 'soft loving' look instead of a 'hard blazing' look. But, that's Ginny for ya...
Precisely. That's Ginny. She is a very strong, very determined girl...we've known that about her character from Book 2.

She pursued Harry (in a 11 year old way, at least) from that early. She let him know how she felt about him via singing cards and Valentines poems.

She pursued her love of flying and Quidditch, even when shady measures were required (aka: breaking into the broomshed and practicing on the twins' brooms)

We've seen how vocal she can be whenever Molly/Ron/anyone tells her to do something that she doesn't want to do.

So for Ginny to suddenly go "sappy" on us, especially at that moment, would have been totally unrealistic. Ginny's determination got her Harry. Giving him big, sappy eyes and a "soft, loving look" during the party chaos and extreme excitement of having just won the match? No way. Ginny is a firecracker. The adreneline pumping at that moment forced the "hard, blazing look" of excitement as she flew at Harry. He just happened to pick that particular moment to kiss her. :)

- once the infatuation wore off, Harry would see her for what she is and that would be the end of it.
And in your opinion/scenario, what is Ginny?

Because IMO, he does, at last, see Ginny "for what she is". A very strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty girl who makes him happier than he can remember being, and who provides him with his "best source of comfort".

Ginny isn't a "perfect woman". She's simply perfect for Harry. She makes him happy? Good enough for me! :)

I think you can blame this on fanfic. I've read very little of it, and all since Book 6 came out, but sometimes I just want to gag on the cloying romance in some of the stories. Then there's the heroine sacrificing everything for her man. As a woman, that just ticks me off.

But re: some of your other comments - I agree. JKR thinks Harry and Ginny are suited, and stating they aren't as fact is improper - it's just opinion. I'm not a soft, dreamy person, so that kind of relationship bores me. I'd much prefer some sparks.

I think a romance can add alot to a book, especially a great one, but it wouldnt go over to well to have a perfectly fitting romance. Those dont happen much, theres always somthing to aruge about, and if there isnt, its boring and they end up breaking up anyway.

Also, I dont think the Hard Blazing Looks have anything to do with ummmmmmmm I dont know the right word, but whatever you have been arguing about. Its more of a passionate look.

Precisely. That's Ginny. She is a very strong, very determined girl...we've known that about her character from Book 2.

She pursued Harry (in a 11 year old way, at least) from that early. She let him know how she felt about him via singing cards and Valentines poems.

She pursued her love of flying and Quidditch, even when shady measures were required (aka: breaking into the broomshed and practicing on the twins' brooms)

We've seen how vocal she can be whenever Molly/Ron/anyone tells her to do something that she doesn't want to do.

So for Ginny to suddenly go "sappy" on us, especially at that moment, would have been totally unrealistic. Ginny's determination got her Harry. Giving him big, sappy eyes and a "soft, loving look" during the party chaos and extreme excitement of having just won the match? No way. Ginny is a firecracker. The adreneline pumping at that moment forced the "hard, blazing look" of excitement as she flew at Harry. He just happened to pick that particular moment to kiss her. :)


And in your opinion/scenario, what is Ginny?

Because IMO, he does, at last, see Ginny "for what she is". A very strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty girl who makes him happier than he can remember being, and who provides him with his "best source of comfort".

Ginny isn't a "perfect woman". She's simply perfect for Harry. She makes him happy? Good enough for me! :)
You are very right, and a perfect woman (or man, not that I roll that way but for the ladies...) would be boring.

By:IceKat55

Because IMO, he does, at last, see Ginny "for what she is". A very strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty girl who makes him happier than he can remember being, and who provides him with his "best source of comfort".

Ginny isn't a "perfect woman". She's simply perfect for Harry. She makes him happy? Good enough for me!


That about hits her character on the head. She reminds me of those tough Dames of the 30's and 40s' Detective Novels.
Having myself married someone much like Ginny.


To sum her up she's tough on the outside. But, inside very soft. This soft side is not shown very much. Usually only to someone she loves.

QUOTE:::: Because IMO, he does, at last, see Ginny "for what she is". A very strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty girl who makes him happier than he can remember being, and who provides him with his "best source of comfort". END QUOTE.

Can we get some canon with that? Strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty...umm could be a number of characters in the book if I felt like making them fit those characteristics. To me, that is YOUR opinion of Ginny...and a beautiful one I might add. But It is not MY opinion of Ginny. I see her as strong-willed, smartish, immature, hot-tempered, talented, and a little nosey (in my opinion).

Icekat: Harry marrying a tough dame from the 30's or 40's ... I would disagree, however that is just my opinion. Some of the love's in my life have also been somewhat volatile, others have been tranquil. However, that is not what I base my opinion on. I was merely thinking of a person who had been through a lot of trauma in their lives (their entire life) and what type of mating would be best - in my opinion. Even short term, volatile meets volatile would be too remniscent of a volatile life (which Harry did not enjoy), thus in my opinion they would break up soon.

Beam, That I do roll that way (that Harry doesn't) didn't affect my opinion. I used Neville to bring out the characteristics I thought more in line for Harry. I believe I indicated Neville would have to be a female version for our Harry (in my opinion).

for the zillionth time, I would not like to see Harry with Hermione. Hermione needs someone like Blaise (arrogant and I assume smart since he made it into some of the more difficult NEWT classes - canon).

Can we get some canon with that? Strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty...umm could be a number of characters in the book if I felt like making them fit those characteristics. To me, that is YOUR opinion of Ginny...and a beautiful one I might add. But It is not MY opinion of Ginny. I see her as strong-willed, smartish, immature, hot-tempered, talented, and a little nosey.

You can make other characters fit those descpiptions if you want but there aren't any characters like her in the books and if you do, that would be twisting canon or misinterpretation. And yes Ginny has been portrayed as quite immature in HBP when she and Ron argued and it's a character flaw which is also present in the Trio who have displayed phases of immaturity on extreme levels at various points of the books. And the fact that she's strong willed makes her independent and fiesty - they're tied in with each other.

And she is talented because she we get hints of that in the books, as in her Bat Bogey Hex. Plus she's meant to be powerful because she's the 7th child and according to folklore, a 7th child is meant to have special powers and we know for a fact that JKR uses legends and myths in the storylines. And I'm just curious, where exactly was she nosy?

Anyway, this thread is not for discussing Ginny's character so back on topic. Harry and Ginny where to from here - they will get back in the middle of the book IMO because Harry will realize that he needs everyone's love to defeat Voldemort and he will accept her love before he faces the final battle. If not, they will definitely get back in the end.

Being that I have green eyes and my eldest boy has my eyes, I am partial to Harry and Ginny's kids having green eyes. (we're special ya know! :) )

I see them braking the whole Weasly boy rut, and having all girls. (Poor Harry)

Can we get some canon with that? Strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty...umm could be a number of characters in the book if I felt like making them fit those characteristics. To me, that is YOUR opinion of Ginny...and a beautiful one I might add. But It is not MY opinion of Ginny. I see her as strong-willed, smartish, immature, hot-tempered, talented, and a little nosey.

Yes, but its not your decision. Its Harry's personality that determines who he likes, who makes him "feel good" (in a non-sexual sense, as in, he enjoys her company).

Ginny has never come across as immature to me, why do you think so anyway?

Harry belongs with Ginny because that is how Jo wrote it. She has been building up their relationship for 6 books, I really do not think she's going to get them together again and then mention in the epilogue that Harry broke up with her for good. Of course we go along with the author, she wrote the books! It doesn't matter if anyone else thinks Harry should have ended up with someone else or they don't see how Harry and Ginny are ideal or that Harry and Ginny won't work out, Jo wrote the books, she wrote Harry and Ginny as ideal for eachother, it's there in the pages of the books, at times as subtle as a bludger (Ron's furtive look at the end of OOTP, the hero slaying the monster to save the girl, their discussion in the library) - I don't understand how anyone can say they don't see where the evidence for how well they "fit". They work together because they are so much alike, they're equal, on the same level. She has provided many instances, conversations, and events that move them along their development and they ended up being perfect for eachother. The canon to show that is in the books, if anyone wants specific examples, one would only have to go through the thread, or wait, just one post, because there are plenty of people on this page alone who have clearly stated where they are headed and why with support from canon, or you could read this (http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered), which actually took out passages from the first 5 books.

Moving on.

That being said, JKR is being deliberately vague in the funeral scene, and I think it's because she doesn't want to give away any clues about Book 7. I think it's significant when Ron and Hermione declare their intention of going with Harry to the Dursleys and Godric's Hollow, that there's no mention of Ginny. Harry at first resolved to go on alone, but relented when Ron and Hermione insisted on accompanying him. Why doesn't he think of Ginny - especially when Ron reminds him of the wedding? It would be a natural step in Harry's thought process to think of seeing Ginny again - but there's no mention of her - in fact it's striking that he thinks of a golden day with Ron and Hermione, but not Ginny. There's no way, miserable as Harry is to be breaking up with her, that he's already forgotten or doesn't care that Ginny will also be at the wedding.

Ah, I completely agree. He didn't really give her a chance to insist, did he, since he walked away, and I think she might save that for the last book. If Harry had thought of his resolution regarding Ginny right after talking to Ron and Hermione, the sudden change of mind would've been not only unrealistic, but that's pretty much a giveaway that they'd get back together. I think he'll stew on it for a while, and I think when he sees Ginny walking down the aisle at Bill and Fleur's wedding, the realization of what a mistake he's made will hit him like an anvil.

[QUOTE=PotionA] And she is talented because she we get hints of that in the books, as in her Bat Bogey Hex. Plus she's meant to be powerful because she's the 7th child and according to folklore, a 7th child is meant to have special powers and we know for a fact that JKR uses legends and myths in the storylines. And I'm just curious, where exactly was she nosy? ...[QUOTE]

I think she has talents, hexing, quidditch, etc. But that doesn't qualify her as a fine match for Harry to me. Ummmm folklore? Because JKR reads folklore now ALL folklore is to be considered good as canon? show me in the book, not in folktales. We know for a Fact that JKR read Jane Austin and Oscar Wilde too...I won't even go into what wild turns I could take with her stories if I based anything on books by those authors.

Where is Ginny ever shown to be nosey? CANON: HBP (page 182, Euro version):
"harry looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them. 'Did I hear right? You've been taking orders from something someone wrote in a book, Harry?' She looked alarmed and ANGRY.

Ah Ginny, jumping to conclusions after eavesdropping on part of a conversation and becoming immediately angry and alarmed without fully knowing what was going on. Could have saved herself a nice little emotional boat ride if she hadn't been nosey. Luckily, Harry had a crush on her at the time...imagine if it had been Draco that had walked up... (all my opinion of course)

Sad day for Harry if JKR continues matching this pair up. He'd be better off alone.

ps. for Ginny's immaturity, see other Ginny thread.

That being said, JKR is being deliberately vague in the funeral scene, and I think it's because she doesn't want to give away any clues about Book 7. I think it's significant when Ron and Hermione declare their intention of going with Harry to the Dursleys and Godric's Hollow, that there's no mention of Ginny. Harry at first resolved to go on alone, but relented when Ron and Hermione insisted on accompanying him. Why doesn't he think of Ginny - especially when Ron reminds him of the wedding? It would be a natural step in Harry's thought process to think of seeing Ginny again - but there's no mention of her - in fact it's striking that he thinks of a golden day with Ron and Hermione, but not Ginny. There's no way, miserable as Harry is to be breaking up with her, that he's already forgotten or doesn't care that Ginny will also be at the wedding.

Ah, I completely agree. He didn't really give her a chance to insist, did he, since he walked away, and I think she might save that for the last book. If Harry had thought of his resolution regarding Ginny right after talking to Ron and Hermione, the sudden change of mind would've been not only unrealistic, but that's pretty much a giveaway that they'd get back together. I think he'll stew on it for a while, and I think when he sees Ginny walking down the aisle at Bill and Fleur's wedding, the realization of what a mistake he's made will hit him like an anvil.
I agree. Partially. It said at the end of HBP at AD's funeral that after he told ginny that he couldnt see her anymore, he left immedately because he didnt think his resolve could hold. It probably wouldnt have heald if she said anything, so he didnt want to give her that chance. I dont think that, in not mentioning ginny that he doesnt like her anymore, I myself completly forgot about her in my miser...

Ummmm folklore? Because JKR reads folklore now ALL folklore is to be considered good as canon?

Where is Ginny ever shown to be nosey? CANON: HBP (page 182, Euro version):
"harry looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them. 'Did I hear right? You've been taking orders from something someone wrote in a book, Harry?' She looked alarmed and ANGRY.

Ah Ginny, jumping to conclusions after eavesdropping on part of a conversation and becoming immediately angry and alarmed without fully knowing what was going on. Could have saved herself a nice little emotional boat ride if she hadn't been nosey. Luckily, Harry had a crush on her at the time...imagine if it had been Draco that had walked up... (all my opinion of course)


MA: Does she have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stufff, being the seventh girl —
JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again. (read here (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml))

She had every right to say that, she'd nearly died because she'd trusted the diary. Harry was listening to a book, there's no jumping to conclusions there, it was pretty clear.

QUOTE:::: Because IMO, he does, at last, see Ginny "for what she is". A very strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty girl who makes him happier than he can remember being, and who provides him with his "best source of comfort". END QUOTE.

Can we get some canon with that? Strong, loyal, funny, witty, kind, talented, hot-tempered, passionate and fiesty...umm could be a number of characters in the book if I felt like making them fit those characteristics. To me, that is YOUR opinion of Ginny...and a beautiful one I might add. But It is not MY opinion of Ginny. I see her as strong-willed, smartish, immature, hot-tempered, talented, and a little nosey (in my opinion).
For canon examples of what are (IMO) Ginny's finer qualities, please feel free to peruse my essay (link in my sig)...I list them out on a book-by-book basis, through OotP.

As far as being his "best source of comfort", those are Harry's direct thoughts of her, from HBP, as he is miserably deciding that he must break up with her, but is putting off the moment for as long as he can. :)

For canon examples of what are (IMO) Ginny's finer qualities, please feel free to peruse my essay (link in my sig)...I list them out on a book-by-book basis.
dedicated...

dedicated...
Actually, "bored", and then "challenged" during the shipping wars is more accurate. ;)

What are the shipping wars?

People who supported one ship (relationship) over another. HBP has settled the "wars". Victory has been declared, and verified by JKR.

ok... shipping wars are an intresting doubblemeaning relationship and people that support one ship. funny.

Um...this thread has completely deviated off topic. First of all, I don't see the problem that some people seem to have with Ginny. I think she's fiesty, funny, fun-loving, and personally I would love to hang out with her. I think it's terribly sweet that JKR has been building up Ginny/Harry and Hermi/Ron from the beginning. If you look back on it now, it's obvious that these too couplings were inevitable.

Secondly, for "wickedwickedboy" or whoever wants to answer: Are you arguing that you don't think Ginny and Harry should be together, or are you just arguing that you don't like Ginny's character/personality?? Because if you're arguing that they shouldn't have ended up together, then there's no point in arguing that because JKR put them together so that's that. Also, who do you think Harry should be with?

Back to the topic -- I think Ginny and Harry (if they both survive) will get back together for good. There would be no point in building up their relationship and not giving them a future, JK wouldn't do that I don't think.

heehee since shipping has been brought up i just want to say that i am all for krum and luna getting together. hermione is taken and jk said neville and luna isn't happening. if krum could fall for hermione why not luna?

I think Ginny and Harry (if they both survive) will get back together for good. There would be no point in building up their relationship and not giving them a future, JK wouldn't do that I don't think.

I agree. Their relationship had been developing ever since book 1 where she used the train scene to create all the relationships in Harry's life and I can't see JKR passing up an opportunity to use that scene in book 7 as well and this time, it'll be Harry really watching her.

I agree with potterluv3 and PotionA.There have been subtle hints leading up to an h/g ship(you'll know what i mean if you read the h/g editorials in madam puddifoot's-that is,if you haven't read them already).Oh,and i remember reading somewhere on mugglenet or some other place,that it's mentioned in jkr's biography on her site that her parents also met at king's cross.funny,isn't it?(or maybe not,lol)

Where is Ginny ever shown to be nosey? CANON: HBP (page 182, Euro version):
"harry looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them. 'Did I hear right? You've been taking orders from something someone wrote in a book, Harry?' She looked alarmed and ANGRY.

Ah Ginny, jumping to conclusions after eavesdropping on part of a conversation and becoming immediately angry and alarmed without fully knowing what was going on. Could have saved herself a nice little emotional boat ride if she hadn't been nosey. Luckily, Harry had a crush on her at the time...imagine if it had been Draco that had walked up... (all my opinion of course)

Sad day for Harry if JKR continues matching this pair up. He'd be better off alone.

ps. for Ginny's immaturity, see other Ginny thread.

That is not being nosey. She walked up to them and heard part of the conversation and it caused her to be concerned because of what had happened to her. She was worried about her friend. She did not ask him for any other information regarding the book or anything like that. She expressed concern and then dropped it when Harry explained that it was just notes scribbled in the book.

Ginny has shown immaturity. So have Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Ginny's behavior is no different from any other 15-year-old in terms of maturity.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
Where is Ginny ever shown to be nosey? CANON: HBP (page 182, Euro version):
"harry looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them. 'Did I hear right? You've been taking orders from something someone wrote in a book, Harry?' She looked alarmed and ANGRY.

Ah Ginny, jumping to conclusions after eavesdropping on part of a conversation and becoming immediately angry and alarmed without fully knowing what was going on. Could have saved herself a nice little emotional boat ride if she hadn't been nosey. Luckily, Harry had a crush on her at the time...imagine if it had been Draco that had walked up... (all my opinion of course)

Sad day for Harry if JKR continues matching this pair up. He'd be better off alone.

ps. for Ginny's immaturity, see other Ginny thread.

first of all i dont think she was eavesdropping. wasn't she coming to sit down with the trio and join the conversation? and given what happened to her in book 2, i can understand why she would be troubled and angered by what harry was doing. Second of all, everyone has different reasons for dating who they date. Just because you don't find Ginny desireable doesn't mean that harry can't. Third, it's Jk's book, and Harry Ron Hermione and Ginny are her characters and she can have them do whatever she wants, period. Respect canon please. (and just so you know this is coming from someone who desperately wanted harry and hermione to be together, but it just wasn't meant to be. jk's word is law.)

Um...this thread has completely deviated off topic. First of all, I don't see the problem that some people seem to have with Ginny. I think she's fiesty, funny, fun-loving, and personally I would love to hang out with her. I think it's terribly sweet that JKR has been building up Ginny/Harry and Hermi/Ron from the beginning. If you look back on it now, it's obvious that these too couplings were inevitable.

Secondly, for "wickedwickedboy" or whoever wants to answer: Are you arguing that you don't think Ginny and Harry should be together, or are you just arguing that you don't like Ginny's character/personality?? Because if you're arguing that they shouldn't have ended up together, then there's no point in arguing that because JKR put them together so that's that. Also, who do you think Harry should be with?

Back to the topic -- I think Ginny and Harry (if they both survive) will get back together for good. There would be no point in building up their relationship and not giving them a future, JK wouldn't do that I don't think.

Yes, I agree, the thread has gotten somewhat off topic. The topic is "Harry and Ginny -- Where to from here?" If they are unsuitable for each other, then they don't have much future together, so there wouldn't be much point in starting a thread on their future. Therefore, the title *is* assuming that they do have a future together, for purposes of discussion on this thread.

Before reading HBP, I wasn't really paying much attention to the future of the romantic relationships. But I really liked they way they turned out in the sixth book, and particularly liked the Harry/Ginny pairing.

If "wickedwickedboy" or others want to argue that the relationship is unsuitable, and that JKR has done a poorer job of setting it up than JKR herself believes, that is certainly their privilege and can make an interesting discussion. IceKat55 has posted an editorial laying out the evidence she sees supporting the development of a solid relationship between Harry & Ginny at:
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-kkearney01.shtml

For those who disagree, I would find it interesting to see their responses to IceKat55's editorial. There is a thread for responses at:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3429485#post3429485

I didn't read IceKat's essay until recently, but I think IceKat does an excellent job of showing evidence that JKR *did* do a good job of laying out an extensive basis for the Harry/Ginny relationship. Responses to that evidence, in any direction, would be interesting to see. IceKat55's editorial was posted on 11/9/04, long before HBP came out, so she picked up all these hints, that JKR believes she gave out, long before HBP was published. The essay runs about 13 pages, mostly single spaced, so there's a lot to digest there.

"Red Monster" has an even more extensive discussion of the character development supporting the Harry/Ginny relationship at:
http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=hglovered
This one is also very good, and runs around 47 pages, mostly single spaced. It was posted on May 20, 2005, so the reasoning was also developed well before HBP came out.

In any case, discussions about whether character development really supports the Harry/Ginny relationship really belong on a different thread.

To get back to the main focus of this thread, I'll just throw a few ideas out. I'll be very surprised if Harry and Ginny's relationship is not picked up again for significant additional development in book 7. I'll also venture to guess that the relationship will be restarted before the middle of the book, perhaps well before the middle of the book. I think this is likely, because it shouldn't be too hard for Harry to figure out that there are many reasons why a public relationship really doesn't add any risk (although Harry is sometimes stubbornly slow on these kind of things). Going further out on a limb, I think that when Harry is willing to resume the relationship with Ginny, his protective attitude will still make him very reluctant to share with Ginny anything about Horcruxes or the other dangerous challenges he is facing. If this occurs, knowing Ginny, it would sooner or later create tension in the relationship; this would stretch out the process of deepening the relationship. Finally, I believe that Harry will have to give up on protecting Ginny from the dangerous secrets he is harboring sometime before the climax of the book. I would interpret his giving in on that last kind of protectiveness as being the final step in some sort of informal, permanent 'cementing' of the relationship.

Like potterluv3, I believe that both Harry & Ginny will survive the last book. One of the reasons I believe so is the same reason that potterluv3 has so well stated: that JKR would not spend so much time developing the relationship if she was going to destroy it at the very end of the series. This interpretation, of course, depends on my understanding, from interviews, of what JKR is like, and what she is trying to accomplish with the books. I don't think she is a 'shock' writer, spending enormous effort to develop characters, just to make their demise more shocking.

I don't think she is a 'shock' writer, spending enormous effort to develop characters, just to make their demise more shocking

I must be easily shocked.

To get back to the main focus of this thread, I'll just throw a few ideas out. I'll be very surprised if Harry and Ginny's relationship is not picked up again for significant additional development in book 7. I'll also venture to guess that the relationship will be restarted before the middle of the book, perhaps well before the middle of the book. I think this is likely, because it shouldn't be too hard for Harry to figure out that there are many reasons why a public relationship really doesn't add any risk (although Harry is sometimes stubbornly slow on these kind of things). Going further out on a limb, I think that when Harry is willing to resume the relationship with Ginny, his protective attitude will still make him very reluctant to share with Ginny anything about Horcruxes or the other dangerous challenges he is facing. If this occurs, knowing Ginny, it would sooner or later create tension in the relationship; this would stretch out the process of deepening the relationship. Finally, I believe that Harry will have to give up on protecting Ginny from the dangerous secrets he is harboring sometime before the climax of the book. I would interpret his giving in on that last kind of protectiveness as being the final step in some sort of informal, permanent 'cementing' of the relationship.

Like potterluv3, I believe that both Harry & Ginny will survive the last book. One of the reasons I believe so is the same reason that potterluv3 has so well stated: that JKR would not spend so much time developing the relationship if she was going to destroy it at the very end of the series. This interpretation, of course, depends on my understanding, from interviews, of what JKR is like, and what she is trying to accomplish with the books. I don't think she is a 'shock' writer, spending enormous effort to develop characters, just to make their demise more shocking.

I agree. I think that all four of them will survive. I don't think Jo would put all this time and effort into developing these relationships just to kill one or more of them off and have nothing to show for it.

I must be easily shocked.

I didn't mean that there haven't been or couldn't be events that are shocking. I only meant that JKR is not developing characters we love solely for the purpose of shocking us with their death. Dumbledore's death was surely shocking; but it served an important literary purpose. If Harry were to continue as Dumbledore's protege, following his orders, he would not fully be the hero of the story he is intended to be. That's why JKR cried so much when writing his death; she loved him too, but Dumbledore's death was always a part of the plot, necessary to make Harry the true hero of the story. In the final analysis, it's the story of the hero Harry Potter, not the hero Dumbledore. Which is not to say that Dumbledore is not heroic, but he is not the main hero of the story.

But I'm sure I could be completely wrong! But I hope not.

- Harry and Ginny will not die. They are perfect together and in love. It would be a real tragedy if Harry and Ginny died.

- Ginny will help Harry in many ways.

- Ginny was the one with the good sense to shut the musical box which I think means she cannot be easily imperiused.

- She will help find the horcrux that is at Hogwarts

- A theory that I am developing involves Lily and James being unsettled souls who instead of becoming ghosts dwell inside Ginny and Harry (I think James also briefly dwelled inside Ron when his spirit followed Pettigrew and Percy found the rat but that theory is another one). Sirius in the POA movie that the ones that truly love us never really leave us and this was what JKR was talking about.

- Harry and Ginny will not die. They are perfect together and in love. It would be a real tragedy if Harry and Ginny died.

There is a branch of stories known as "tragedies." These actually were very common in children's stories until the last century or so.

- She will help find the horcrux that is at Hogwarts

Voldemort would not put two Horcruxes in Hogwarts. The intended Hogwarts Horcrux was the Diary, and that was destroyed.

However, Ginny did help do that! If she had not resisted so long, then the plan probably would have worked.

A theory that I am developing involves Lily and James being unsettled souls who instead of becoming ghosts dwell inside Ginny and Harry

James and Lily are not ghosts, and there is no return from death (according to JKR). Therefore, this cannot happen (according to JKR herself). Remember, people only become ghosts if they are afraid of death; otherwise, their souls pass beyond the Veil. James & Lily (like Sirius & Dumbledore) are gone, never to return except as some form of memory (a la the Pensieve or the Wand).

There is a branch of stories known as "tragedies." These actually were very common in children's stories until the last century or so.

Honestly, I don't see Jo taking this route for any of them. She has joked about it - that's one reason I don't think she is going to kill any of them off. The other is how much time and effort she put into developing the secondary characters and relationships. I don't think they are going to come out of the final battle completley unscathed but all four of them will be alive.

Voldemort would not put two Horcruxes in Hogwarts. The intended Hogwarts Horcrux was the Diary, and that was destroyed.

However, Ginny did help do that! If she had not resisted so long, then the plan probably would have worked.

I have to disagree on this. Voldemort wants to get back into Hogwarts - almost desperately. He applied for a teaching position when he finished school but was told he was too young. He returned when he was older and applied again and Dumbledore turned him down because of his practices in the Dark Arts. He was so angry about this that he cursed the DADA position. It is a logical deduction that there is another Horcrux at Hogwarts and Voldemort is so desperate to get into the castle so he can retrieve it and hide it so that it is better protected.

Technically, the diary was not a "Hogwarts Horcrux". It was not hidden at Hogwarts - it was hidden with Lucius Malfoy. My theory is that the Ravenclaw Horcrux is the tiara in the Room of Requirement described in HBP. Jo has frequently mentioned objects seemingly at random only to have them turn up in a later book and be very important. The Vanishing cabinets are a good example of that - mentioned briefly in passing and seemingly unimportant until HBP. The "heavy locket" mentioned in OOTP is likely the missing locket Horcrux and the tiara could very well be the Ravenclaw Horcrux.

I think that Riddle was forced to hide the tiara in the Room of Requirement. Perhaps he stole it and the theft was discovered sooner than he expected - lots of possibilities there. Anyway, he hid the tiara in the Room of Requirement among all of the other contraband that students and teachers have hidden over the years intending to go back and get it before he left school so he could hide and protect it properly. He was unable to do so - possibly he was being watched closely by Dumbledore who would have suspected him in a theft - and he had to leave the tiara there.

Jo's interviews all point towards the fact that the trio is going to return to Hogwarts for their seventh year, despite Harry's determination not to at the end of HBP. She also says that Harry "thinks" he knows what he has to do. I believe that they will discover that there is a Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts and return to school as students so they can search for it without arousing suspicion.

That brings Ginny back into the story. She can help them in searching for this Horcrux - which could very well turn out to be the last one they have to find before the final battle.

James and Lily are not ghosts, and there is no return from death (according to JKR). Therefore, this cannot happen (according to JKR herself). Remember, people only become ghosts if they are afraid of death; otherwise, their souls pass beyond the Veil. James & Lily (like Sirius & Dumbledore) are gone, never to return except as some form of memory (a la the Pensieve or the Wand).

Completely agree. If James and Lily were ghosts Harry would have seen them by now.

Honestly, I don't see Jo taking this route for any of them. She has joked about it - that's one reason I don't think she is going to kill any of them off. The other is how much time and effort she put into developing the secondary characters and relationships. I don't think they are going to come out of the final battle completley unscathed but all four of them will be alive.

If she does not develop the characters, then their deaths would mean nothing. Again, my comment is that Harry's self-sacrifice is heavily foreshadowed. That is a simple truth. Not all foreshadowings need come to pass, of course.



I have to disagree on this. Voldemort wants to get back into Hogwarts - almost desperately. He applied for a teaching position when he finished school but was told he was too young. He returned when he was older and applied again and Dumbledore turned him down because of his practices in the Dark Arts. He was so angry about this that he cursed the DADA position. It is a logical deduction that there is another Horcrux at Hogwarts and Voldemort is so desperate to get into the castle so he can retrieve it and hide it so that it is better protected.

This is invalid logic. It works only if this is the only reason why Voldemort would want to get back into Hogwarts. However, Dumbledore gave us three perfectly sound alternative reasons why Voldemort wanted to get back to Hogwarts:

1) So that Voldemort could hunt for more artifacts from the founders;
2) Voldemort wanted to create an army of followers;
3) Hogwarts was the closest thing to a home Voldemort ever had.

Thus, given that we have multiple reasons why Voldemort wanted to return, and given that we have no basis for eliminating any of them (and, indeed, many reasons to think that they are true!) it becomes a logical fallacy known as confirming the consequence to say "here is one reason why Voldemort might have wanted to return; ergo, that is the reason why he returned." After all, all crows are black, but not all black birds are crows.

Moreover, we can deduce that it is highly improbable that Voldemort has any other Horcruxes at Hogwarts. Simply put, Voldemort did not have access to Hogwarts after he made the post-Ring Horcrux. Now, he might have made the Ring a Horcrux while a student: we do not know for sure when he learned how to make Horcruxes. We can be almost certain that it was a Horcrux when he killed Hepzibah Smith. Moreover, because Voldemort was only slightly distorted at this time, and given the amount of damage that 5 Horcruxes created, it is highly unlikely that he had more than one Horcrux at this point. (Given that he had at least 3 when he went to Hogwarts 10 years later, and given that one of the reasons why Dumbledore thought that Voldemort wanted to return was to find more appropriate relics for making Horcruxes, and given that he had not yet hit "Voldemort classic" that we see by 5 Horcruxes, it is very difficult to fit in another Horcrux.)

Hogwarts was very much safeguarded against Voldemort, and he could not return to search for Horcruxes, forcing him to adopt the subterfuge of wanting to return as a teacher. Given this, we can rule out the idea that he found a way after he left to sneak in and hide a new Horcrux. (Indeed, if he had, then why didn't he sneak in again and remove it to someplace safer?)

(This form of logic is called modus tollens; essentially, I have presented a series of "If X, then Y; not Y; ergo not X statements, where the X is Voldemort hid a Horcrux at Hogwarts and the Y's are the things that need to be true if that can be true.)


Technically, the diary was not a "Hogwarts Horcrux". It was not hidden at Hogwarts - it was hidden with Lucius Malfoy.

Yes, the Diary was the Hogwarts Horcrux. It was not hidden with Malfoy: it was given to Malfoy so that he would sneak it into Hogwarts and (ultimately) get it placed in the Chamber of Secrets. Malfoy went ahead with the plan on his own (as Dumbledore describes), because he had no idea what it was.

Remember, Voldemort did not have access to Hogwarts, which was a close to being "dear" to him as anything could be. He was denied the opportunity to return. He therefore needed to resort to this sort of subterfuge to leave a Horcrux at Hogwarts.

As I wrote, ironically the original poster was right: Ginny did help Harry find and destroy the Hogwarts Horcrux! Had Voldemort's plan gone properly, then the Diary (and Ginny, or whoever the "host" was) would have lain in the Chamber forever. Ginny very much helped thwart it by resisting the Diary far longer than Voldemort could have expected. (She was even able to get rid of it.)



I think that Riddle was forced to hide the tiara in the Room of Requirement. Perhaps he stole it and the theft was discovered sooner than he expected - lots of possibilities there.

This does not work. He would have to have been a student at the time, but we are almost certain that he had (at most) one Horcrux (the Ring) when he left school.

Also, what would force him to hide it there? He could apparate and go anyplace he wanted. There are plenty of magical tricks that we have seen (and that he certainly had mastered) that could hide it.



That brings Ginny back into the story. She can help them in searching for this Horcrux - which could very well turn out to be the last one they have to find before the final battle.

I think that a more plausible idea is that Harry will see Ginny again when he visits Hogsmeade to go through Dumbledore's possessions. Ginny will then follow Harry et al., using some of that powerful magic that JKR has promised to show us. There is the idea that she will learn to be an animagus, and turn into some sort of feline: JKR frequently has attributed feline characteristics to Ginny, and she always ascribes characteristics befitting an animagus' animal form to the witch/wizard. That also would qualify as the potent magic. However, there are numerous other ways in which JKR could do this, too.

As for the RoR, Ginny would not be particularly useful there. What information could she (or anyone else) find that would lead them to conclude that the RoR had been important to Voldemort? The Tiara idea does not work: Harry did not notice anything interesting about it that would link it to Ravenclaw (e.g,. an Eagle or something like that): the ugly statue and the bloody axe were brought to our attention just as much. (Slytherin's locket was described in terms that we could use to link it to the locket at Grimmauld place; the S was gone, but that might just be an artifact of Regulus breaking it to release the soul fragment.) Voldemort wanted items that belonged to the founders, yes, but he would want items that showed this.


Heheh - this might all seem off-topic, but it really is not. Where the Horcruxes are (and, equally importantly, where they are not, which we can deduce even if we cannot deduce where they are) both affect how Ginny will appear in VII.


Oh, and a quick comment of the "Ginny is immature" nonsense. This is rubbish from Harmonians, who have completely distorted Ginny's character (just as they have completely distorted Hermione's and Harry's character) from the character presented in the canon. Ginny is a bit more mature than Hermione on most counts.

- A theory that I am developing involves Lily and James being unsettled souls who instead of becoming ghosts dwell inside Ginny and Harry (I think James also briefly dwelled inside Ron when his spirit followed Pettigrew and Percy found the rat but that theory is another one). Sirius in the POA movie that the ones that truly love us never really leave us and this was what JKR was talking about.
are you saying that harry and ginny are possessed by lily and james?
are you saying that harry and ginny are the reincarnation of lily and james? (harry for one absolutely cannot be a reincarnation of james because james was alive when harry was born. and if this is what you are thinking, i must say i think its a little gross. since ginny and harry are soul mates according to jk, that would mean that harry is in love with his mothers reincarnated self...weird.)
or is your theory neither of these? sorry i need clarification.

If she does not develop the characters, then their deaths would mean nothing. Again, my comment is that Harry's self-sacrifice is heavily foreshadowed. That is a simple truth. Not all foreshadowings need come to pass, of course.

Yes it is foreshadowed but there's the fact that Harry's death would mean that his mother's sacrifice was in vain. Her intention wasn't to protect her son so that he could vanquish Voldemort only, but because she loves him and wants what every mother wants for her child and that is to be happy and healthy. It would be symbolic if Harry lives because it would emphasize that after all the hardship and losses, he is finally happy.

Oh, and a quick comment of the "Ginny is immature" nonsense. This is rubbish from Harmonians, who have completely distorted Ginny's character (just as they have completely distorted Hermione's and Harry's character) from the character presented in the canon. Ginny is a bit more mature than Hermione on most counts.

Oh where were you at the Ginny bashing thread? :D I've come across several hundred comments stating that Ginny's relationship with Harry is not the reason why they dislike her, but strangely, the arguments for Ginny's immaturity, Mary Sue-ness etc were supported by their romance in HBP.

are you saying that harry and ginny are possessed by lily and james?
are you saying that harry and ginny are the reincarnation of lily and james? (harry for one absolutely cannot be a reincarnation of james because james was alive when harry was born. and if this is what you are thinking, i must say i think its a little gross. since ginny and harry are soul mates according to jk, that would mean that harry is in love with his mothers reincarnated self...weird.)
or is your theory neither of these? sorry i need clarification.
I agree, but for the sake of arguing, if they were "possese" then it would be james loving lilly and harry loving ginny.

I agree, but for the sake of arguing, if they were "possese" then it would be james loving lilly and harry loving ginny.
right, i agree, i dont think that one is as creepy. but if they are being possessed does that mean that harry and ginny might stop caring for each other if lily and james stop possessing them? might the only reason they are attracted to each other be because they are each possessed by two people who were in love when they were alive? (i'm only saying this to people who believe that the possession thing is true, which i dont, so please do not hate on me:no: )

I dont think (in the event that this theory is true) that James and lilly are "possesing" them, more of manifesting them into harry and ginny, influencing them ever so slightly, but giving subconcious guideance all the same.

Well, after short and beautiful relationship and painful parting, I expect Harry will be alone and sad for some time and then eventually let Ginny join the battle. I hope this will help him vanquish Voldy and stay alive :)

I dont think (in the event that this theory is true) that James and lilly are "possesing" them, more of manifesting them into harry and ginny, influencing them ever so slightly, but giving subconcious guideance all the same.

... You've lost me.

Oh where were you at the Ginny bashing thread? :D I've come several hundred comments stating that Ginny's relationship with Harry is not the reason why they dislike her, but strangely, the arguments for Ginny's immaturity, Mary Sue-ness etc were supported by their romance in HBP.
Explain how the immaturity is supported in their romance, please?

And the ginny bashing thread is closed.

Ginny is immature? I don't think so. You could define Ginny's immaturity on the basis that she has had more than a few boyfriends the past couple of years, but that isn't really correct. You could also call her MORE mature for having these relationships as well. Where is your logic?

Explain how the immaturity is supported in their romance, please?

And the ginny bashing thread is closed.

Erm, I'm not saying that her supposed immaturity is used to support their romance. People have said repeatedly how immature and what a Mary Sue Ginny is and at the same time claimed that her relationship with Harry had nothing to do with their dislike towards her character, but somehow, their relationship was used numerous times to bash around her character. It makes no sense to me.

Yes it is foreshadowed but there's the fact that Harry's death would mean that his mother's sacrifice was in vain. Her intention wasn't to protect her son so that he could vanquish Voldemort only, but because she loves him and wants what every mother wants for her child and that is to be happy and healthy. It would be symbolic if Harry lives because it would emphasize that after all the hardship and losses, he is finally happy.

True. But, on the other hand, if the "Accidental Horcrux" hypothesis is correct, then it could be that Lily gave Harry the means to kill Voldemort only by self-sacrifice.

Still, it could be the JKR means to use Ginny here. Ginny, rather than Ron or Hermione, might be what pulls



Oh where were you at the Ginny bashing thread? :D I've come across several hundred comments stating that Ginny's relationship with Harry is not the reason why they dislike her, but strangely, the arguments for Ginny's immaturity, Mary Sue-ness etc were supported by their romance in HBP.

The problem is that those threads give me headaches: the Ginny-bashers discuss characters named Ginny, Harry and Hermione which each have one thing in common (and, insofar as I usually can see ONLY one thing in common) with JKR's characters: the first names!

Ginny's romance with Harry does tell us things about Ginny, albeit only in passing. JKR purposely had the narrative leave us wondering if her attentions had returned to Harry or not: as it needed to do, because Harry himself did not know. I think people forget that (with the odd exception of Spinner's End and The Other Minister), we never read things from Ginny's or anyone else's perspective, only Harry's. Moreover, the only person who gets Ginny's perspective is Hermione (the two obviously are confidantes), and because Harry never does actually talk to Hermione about it, she was not called upon to provide it. However, Hermione was watching Harry for a reason: in addition to her own insights, she probably suspected (or simply knew) that Ginny was again interested in Harry.

As for Ginny's intentions, she clearly was interested in Harry at that point: otherwise, I expect that she would have bat-boggied him to within an inch of his life instead of trying to suck out his lungs..... Let's face it, it was not like Hermione with Krum: Ginny knew full well that she could take her choice of men, and it was not like the attentions of one was going to make her head spin so badly that she was going to lose her perspective.


So, what will Ginny do in VII? Well, again, we cannot really discuss this in a vacuum. A lot will depend on where Harry's travel takes him. The lovers are parted: she'll be at Hogwarts or the Burrow; Harry will be traipsing about looking for Regulus' locket, and then the other two Horcrux localities. Ginny will know that Harry is up to something: she'll hear her mother's screaming, if nothing else, and if she returns to Hogwarts, then Harry's absence will be noted. (She'll probably be the new Quidditch captain, I should think.)

Aberforth probably will step into the limelight; that means Harry will be at Hogsmeade. This strikes me as the single most probable time for Ginny to re-enter the picture. (Obviously, we'll see her at the wedding: JKR might have some fun with that!)

ok i'm just an idiot i guse whats a Mary Sue? my friend told me its when some one rites them selfs with a charater but that def must be diferent than what ginnys being acused of so what dose marry sue meen?

ok i'm just an idiot i guse whats a Mary Sue? my friend told me its when some one rites them selfs with a charater but that def must be diferent than what ginnys being acused of so what dose marry sue meen?

It's an expression meaning a perfect woman (or girl in the case).

Why is this thread even open? I thought shipping threads weren't allowed? (this thread is a perfect example why :rolleyes: )

Ginny is immature? I don't think so. You could define Ginny's immaturity on the basis that she has had more than a few boyfriends the past couple of years, but that isn't really correct. You could also call her MORE mature for having these relationships as well. Where is your logic?
I wouldn't call Ginny immature or extremely mature. These relationships were turbulent and also brief. That would mean that shes a teen. Nothing more.

True. But, on the other hand, if the "Accidental Horcrux" hypothesis is correct, then it could be that Lily gave Harry the means to kill Voldemort only by self-sacrifice.

Still, it could be the JKR means to use Ginny here. Ginny, rather than Ron or Hermione, might be what pulls

I've been a firm believer of the "Accidental Horcrux" theory for quite sometime now and there were some really interesting points that were brought up which supported the theory that Harry could survive even if he is a Horcrux. If he is, the love he has for Ron, Hermione, Ginny and every other people he's close to could destroy the soul from within. And Harry and Ginny's love for each other could be really emphasized here.

The problem is that those threads give me headaches: the Ginny-bashers discuss characters named Ginny, Harry and Hermione which each have one thing in common (and, insofar as I usually can see ONLY one thing in common) with JKR's characters: the first names!

Ginny's romance with Harry does tell us things about Ginny, albeit only in passing. JKR purposely had the narrative leave us wondering if her attentions had returned to Harry or not: as it needed to do, because Harry himself did not know. I think people forget that (with the odd exception of Spinner's End and The Other Minister), we never read things from Ginny's or anyone else's perspective, only Harry's. Moreover, the only person who gets Ginny's perspective is Hermione (the two obviously are confidantes), and because Harry never does actually talk to Hermione about it, she was not called upon to provide it. However, Hermione was watching Harry for a reason: in addition to her own insights, she probably suspected (or simply knew) that Ginny was again interested in Harry.

Agreed. Plenty of people seem to forget that we get everything from Harry's POV and whatever we get of Ginny in the past books and HBP is sufficient to deduce what kind of a character she is. Unfortunately, many feel they need to be spoon fed the details of their relationship or even a casual, relaxed conversation between them, something which we hardly get between the Trio even!

Why is this thread even open? I thought shipping threads weren't allowed? (this thread is a perfect example why :rolleyes: )

This is not a shipping thread. It's meant for discussion regarding where Harry and Ginny's relationship is heading :)

i dont like this thread anymore. it's supposed to be about like when in book 7, early on or near the very end, harry and ginny become boyfriend and girlfriend again.
at the end of book 6 we know who ron and harry are going to end up with. THERE WILL BE NO HAIL MARY PLAY IN THE SEVENTH BOOK WHICH ENDS WITH HARRY AND HERMIONE GETTING TOGETHER.
if you want to talk about who's going to end up with whom you need to talk about characters like seamus and luna and fred and george ... the people jk has not already laid down the law on.

so what are everyone's thoughts: will jk have ginny stepping up to harry and telling him he's silly in the very beginning of the book? or will we have to sweat it out?
personally, and this is what i would do as well, i see ginny in the very beginning of the book telling harry that he can't tell her what to do. she's fiesty.

This is not a shipping thread. It's meant for discussion regarding where Harry and Ginny's relationship is heading :)

Yes, that is what it was intended for... but it has, in fact, turned into a shipping thread.

I've been a firm believer of the "Accidental Horcrux" theory for quite sometime now and there were some really interesting points that were brought up which supported the theory that Harry could survive even if he is a Horcrux. If he is, the love he has for Ron, Hermione, Ginny and every other people he's close to could destroy the soul from within. And Harry and Ginny's love for each other could be really emphasized here.

Again, this is part of the problem with trying to discuss the story in pieces. Where Harry + Ginny go from here depends so much on where the plot takes Harry. Given the character that JKR has developed for Ginny, I'll be stunned if she does not get heavily involved. It seems to be in her nature to want to help (look at what she does for Harry and friends in OotP and HBP, and what she does to her enemies!), and JKR will want Harry's mate to be worthy of him.


Oh, and for the record (and just to brag), I was a proponent of the Accidental Horcrux hypothesis before we even knew what a Horcrux was! I wasted weeks on another newsgroup arguing whether Voldemort had accidentally left his sould in Harry or deliberately hidden it somewhere else.

Then HBP came along and turned our "or" into an either! We both doffed our caps to JKR and decided that, in fact, we both had been right AND wrong!


This is not a shipping thread. It's meant for discussion regarding where Harry and Ginny's relationship is heading

Ah, but didn't the shipping threads attempt to focus on the characters? If someone truly thinks that Ginny is a shallow, immature pretty-face who only did things like play Quidditch to impress Harry and who was snogging other guys just because she's a bit of a slut, then they won't be expecting her to do much. They probably think that Ginny just accepted the breakup.

However, if you think that Ginny is a forceful dynamic character with genuine feelings for Harry and a determination to both keep him alive AND keep him period, then you expect something else.

Indeed, my wife noted something immediately after we read HBP: Ginny never truly accepted Harry's breakup. Her translation (yup, "Mad things girls do so that boys can understand them") was: "I never really gave up on you before, and I'm sure as Hades not giving up on you now, you heroic idiot....."

"I never really gave up on you before, and I'm sure as Hades not giving up on you now, you heroic idiot....."

lol, i think thats exactly what she was saying:lol:

If she does not develop the characters, then their deaths would mean nothing. Again, my comment is that Harry's self-sacrifice is heavily foreshadowed. That is a simple truth. Not all foreshadowings need come to pass, of course.

Oh, I agree that it is possible. I didn't mean that. I just don't think she is going to do it. Mainly because she jokes about it so much. Merely an opinion. :)

This is invalid logic. It works only if this is the only reason why Voldemort would want to get back into Hogwarts. However, Dumbledore gave us three perfectly sound alternative reasons why Voldemort wanted to get back to Hogwarts:

1) So that Voldemort could hunt for more artifacts from the founders;
2) Voldemort wanted to create an army of followers;
3) Hogwarts was the closest thing to a home Voldemort ever had.

Thus, given that we have multiple reasons why Voldemort wanted to return, and given that we have no basis for eliminating any of them (and, indeed, many reasons to think that they are true!) it becomes a logical fallacy known as confirming the consequence to say "here is one reason why Voldemort might have wanted to return; ergo, that is the reason why he returned." After all, all crows are black, but not all black birds are crows.

I never said it was the only reason that he wanted to get back into Hogwarts. I said that it was a reason that would explain his apparent desperation to get back into Hogwarts. The three reasons that you listed do not explain that because -

1) He found artifacts from Slytherin and Hufflepuff outside of Hogwarts. Getting into Hogwarts was not an absolute necessity for that.
2) He managed quite well to create an army of followers without getting into Hogwarts.
3) The fact that he considers Hogwarts like home does not really explain why he would be so angry that he would put a curse on the DADA position.

Moreover, we can deduce that it is highly improbable that Voldemort has any other Horcruxes at Hogwarts. Simply put, Voldemort did not have access to Hogwarts after he made the post-Ring Horcrux. Now, he might have made the Ring a Horcrux while a student: we do not know for sure when he learned how to make Horcruxes. We can be almost certain that it was a Horcrux when he killed Hepzibah Smith. Moreover, because Voldemort was only slightly distorted at this time, and given the amount of damage that 5 Horcruxes created, it is highly unlikely that he had more than one Horcrux at this point. (Given that he had at least 3 when he went to Hogwarts 10 years later, and given that one of the reasons why Dumbledore thought that Voldemort wanted to return was to find more appropriate relics for making Horcruxes, and given that he had not yet hit "Voldemort classic" that we see by 5 Horcruxes, it is very difficult to fit in another Horcrux.)

I disagree. We know for a fact that he created the diary while he was a student at Hogwarts. The Tom Riddle that came out of the diary was 16 years old. The diary was made while he was in his fifth or sixth year. We can also be fairly certain that he made the ring into a Horcrux while he was a student as well - most likely before he created the diary. Harry notes that Riddle is wearing the ring in Slughorn's memory but the Riddle that came out of the diary was not wearing the ring. My belief is that he made the ring first. He acquired the ring first and was wearing it when he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes. My guess would be that he made the ring into a Horcrux sometime during his fifth year and hid it at the Gaunt house that summer. Then he created the diary in his sixth year but apparently kept that with him until he gave it to Lucius. It is possible that he could have created a third Horcrux in his seventh year.

Voldemort's change in appearance did not occur just because of the damage to his soul. There were many factors involved in that regarding how far he sank into the Dark Arts - also stated by Dumbledore.

Hogwarts was very much safeguarded against Voldemort, and he could not return to search for Horcruxes, forcing him to adopt the subterfuge of wanting to return as a teacher. Given this, we can rule out the idea that he found a way after he left to sneak in and hide a new Horcrux. (Indeed, if he had, then why didn't he sneak in again and remove it to someplace safer?)

(This form of logic is called modus tollens; essentially, I have presented a series of "If X, then Y; not Y; ergo not X statements, where the X is Voldemort hid a Horcrux at Hogwarts and the Y's are the things that need to be true if that can be true.)

No, I don't believe he snuck back in after he finished school. I believe he created three Horcruxes while he was in school. The first two were objects that belonged to him and he was able to hide them at his leisure and protect them. The third, most likely the tiara, was likely something that he stole and that led to him having to hide it in the Room of Requirement to avoid being caught.

Yes, the Diary was the Hogwarts Horcrux. It was not hidden with Malfoy: it was given to Malfoy so that he would sneak it into Hogwarts and (ultimately) get it placed in the Chamber of Secrets. Malfoy went ahead with the plan on his own (as Dumbledore describes), because he had no idea what it was.

Remember, Voldemort did not have access to Hogwarts, which was a close to being "dear" to him as anything could be. He was denied the opportunity to return. He therefore needed to resort to this sort of subterfuge to leave a Horcrux at Hogwarts.

I don't agree with that logic - it doesn't make much sense. The diary was not hidden at Hogwarts and the only reason Voldemort wanted to get it into Hogwarts was to re-open the Chamber of Secrets and release the basilisk.

Either way you look at it though, there is no reason that there can't be another Horcrux at Hogwarts. Hogwarts is a central location of the books and, from what Jo has told us, will remain so. At least one of the Horcruxes is going to be hidden there.

As I said before, I believe that Riddle created three Horcruxes while he was still a student there so he would not have had to resort to subterfuge to hide a Horcrux at Hogwarts. Actually, what I'm trying to say is that he does not want the Horcrux hidden there. He wants to get it out of Hogwarts and hide it in a safer place - a place where he can protect it. That is why he is so desperate to get back into the castle. He is worried that someone might discover the Horcruxes - or possibly even just find the tiara and take it, not realizing what it is.

As I wrote, ironically the original poster was right: Ginny did help Harry find and destroy the Hogwarts Horcrux! Had Voldemort's plan gone properly, then the Diary (and Ginny, or whoever the "host" was) would have lain in the Chamber forever. Ginny very much helped thwart it by resisting the Diary far longer than Voldemort could have expected. (She was even able to get rid of it.)

And I think we will see something similar occur in book 7. Given Jo's comments, the trio is going to return to school. It appears that a large portion of book 7 is going to occur at Hogwarts - as has been the pattern in all the books thus far. That would suggest that either a Horcrux is hidden there, they will find all the Horcruxes before school starts (unlikely), or will decide to return to school before the search is finished (even more unlikely).

This does not work. He would have to have been a student at the time, but we are almost certain that he had (at most) one Horcrux (the Ring) when he left school.

Also, what would force him to hide it there? He could apparate and go anyplace he wanted. There are plenty of magical tricks that we have seen (and that he certainly had mastered) that could hide it.

I disagree. We know for sure that both the ring and diary Horcuxes were created while he was in school. It is not inconceivable that he created a third in his seventh year. See above.

What forced him to hide it will depend on the circumstances. Riddle's memory tells Harry in COS that Dumbledore kept an annoyingly close watch on him after the Chamber of Secrets was opened. If he did steal the tiara and there was danger of being caught with it, the Room of Requirement seems a likely choice - particularly considering how Harry describes that particular version of the room. Students have been hiding things there for years. There is also Dumbledore's reprimand of young Tom Riddle in HBP regarding his stealing - he told him that type of behavior would not be tolerated at Hogwarts. Riddle was presenting his "best face" at this point in time - trying to play up his role as the tragic figure, orphaned and poor but also handsome, charming, and talented.

I think that a more plausible idea is that Harry will see Ginny again when he visits Hogsmeade to go through Dumbledore's possessions. Ginny will then follow Harry et al., using some of that powerful magic that JKR has promised to show us. There is the idea that she will learn to be an animagus, and turn into some sort of feline: JKR frequently has attributed feline characteristics to Ginny, and she always ascribes characteristics befitting an animagus' animal form to the witch/wizard. That also would qualify as the potent magic. However, there are numerous other ways in which JKR could do this, too.

As for the RoR, Ginny would not be particularly useful there. What information could she (or anyone else) find that would lead them to conclude that the RoR had been important to Voldemort? The Tiara idea does not work: Harry did not notice anything interesting about it that would link it to Ravenclaw (e.g,. an Eagle or something like that): the ugly statue and the bloody axe were brought to our attention just as much. (Slytherin's locket was described in terms that we could use to link it to the locket at Grimmauld place; the S was gone, but that might just be an artifact of Regulus breaking it to release the soul fragment.) Voldemort wanted items that belonged to the founders, yes, but he would want items that showed this.

I think the animagus theory could be probable - she has attributed some cat-like phrasing in terms of describing Ginny. However, she has done this with other characters as well - including Harry. In COS, Harry follows Dobby down the stairs and leaps "cat-like" to the landing. It could be that she just likes that alliteration.

But Harry will definitely see Ginny again when they return to school as students. How she could help them is debatable. She could help them with research - Ron and Hermione are not the only ones capable of looking things up in books with Harry. There is also a very strong possibility that Ginny could know something and doesn't realize that it is important. Riddle could have told her something when she was writing in the diary - something that seems to be insignificant but is really very important. There are a lot of possibilities.

Jo has mentioned several items in the past that were seemingly insignificant that turned out to be important. The Vanishing cabinet was mentioned in passing, not really described other than Filch saying it was very valuable in COS and Fred and George saying that it was broken in OOTP. It's counterpart was briefly mentioned in COS with no description at all. The locket in OOTP wasn't really described - just a "heavy locket that none of them could open". Harry described several items in the room - the bloody axe and ugly statue among them. The tiara seemed most likely to be something that would have belonged to Ravenclaw. I'm not ruling out those other objects - any one of them could be the unidentified Horcrux. I just think the tiara is most likely.

Heheh - this might all seem off-topic, but it really is not. Where the Horcruxes are (and, equally importantly, where they are not, which we can deduce even if we cannot deduce where they are) both affect how Ginny will appear in VII.

Completely agree with you here. If we're going to discuss where Harry and Ginny's relationship is headed there is no avoiding straying off into other topics occasionally while discussing the possibilities of what role Ginny will play in book 7. I think Ginny is going to be most significant in the final battle but she could end up helping them search for the Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts as well. ;)

Oh, and a quick comment of the "Ginny is immature" nonsense. This is rubbish from Harmonians, who have completely distorted Ginny's character (just as they have completely distorted Hermione's and Harry's character) from the character presented in the canon. Ginny is a bit more mature than Hermione on most counts.

Definitely agree with you on that one. :agree:

I just don't get why some people do not like Ginny. Ginny is right for Harry, well because JKR said so (right?). Ginny is there when Harry needs her, and I hope will be there for him in book 7.

ok i'm just an idiot i guse whats a Mary Sue? my friend told me its when some one rites them selfs with a charater but that def must be diferent than what ginnys being acused of so what dose marry sue meen?
It's an expression meaning a perfect woman (or girl in the case).
Actually it's a bit more involved than that, a Mary Sue character is an idealised representation of the author inserted as a character into the story. For the Harry Potter books the closest character that comes to this is Hermione. Though she is anything but an ideal character she does represent aspects of how Jo saw herself as a teen.

Why is this thread even open? I thought shipping threads weren't allowed? (this thread is a perfect example why :rolleyes: )
As PotionA mentioned this isn't a shipping thread, all of that was done and run with book six much to the consternation of some of the more ... vehement ... participants. Despite those few who still wish to argue otherwise this thread (and the Ron and Hermione thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=80973) of a similar nature) are simply for discussion and speculation of where they are going with their respective relationships.

Yes, that is what it was intended for... but it has, in fact, turned into a shipping thread.
:huh: Really, how is that when there is nothing left to argue. Sure there are the occasional posts that crop up from time to time by those travelling on Egyptian river traffic but these are rare and more often than not just made as an attempt to draw a reaction that could create trouble. Most people here prefer the discussions at hand.

The days of the nastiness, abuse and outright visciousness that plagued the old love thread days are, thankfully, a thing of the past. There are other forums around that still perpetuate such things, some of their members even popping up here from time to time in not too subtle efforts to reawaken the old arguments but thankfully the worst of them got themselves banned thanks to their efforts so things are largely peacful these days.

I think there was Ginny bashing because she's supposed to be a Gryffindor and when her and Harry's relationship was clear people may have become suspiciouse of her smartnes and her dating harry because they may have gotten the idea that she is ambitouse and thats a Slytherin trait. maybe.

The three reasons that you listed do not explain that because -

1) He found artifacts from Slytherin and Hufflepuff outside of Hogwarts. Getting into Hogwarts was not an absolute necessity for that.
2) He managed quite well to create an army of followers without getting into Hogwarts.
3) The fact that he considers Hogwarts like home does not really explain why he would be so angry that he would put a curse on the DADA position.

Well, I was parrotting Dumbledore's reasons! However, consider these again. Voldemort had the Slytherin and Hufflepuff relics, but after 10 years, he had not found Gryffindor or Ravenclaw relics. As far as Dumbledore could determine, Voldemort did not have them 20 years later when he (Voldie) attempted to kill Harry. Hogwarts was the place with the best chance of finding them: of course Voldemort would want to start there.

And, yes, Voldemort was building a band of followers. However, is was a cadre of apparent friends. He was able to build a following eventually, but it took him another 10 years after he interviewed at Hogwarts, and it was much smaller than it could have been had he been at Hogwarts. Had he been indoctrinating students as a teacher, he would have had far more Death Eaters and far more sympathizers in high places.

So, it was not that these things were impossible outside of Hogwarts. Instead, it is that they would have been much easier for Voldemort to accomplish if he had been a Hogwarts professor.

And, as for Voldemort's curse, why would his viewing of Hogwarts as his home affect that? He wanted the position, and therefore he took retribution upon being denied it. If he could not have the job, then nobody could.


I disagree. We know for a fact that he created the diary while he was a student at Hogwarts. The Tom Riddle that came out of the diary was 16 years old. The diary was made while he was in his fifth or sixth year.

It is true that he made the Diary while 16. However, it began as a Diary and was later made a Horcrux. The available evidence suggests that the "Horcruxing" was much later than that. It probably was the 4th or 5th Horcrux made, after Voldemort became desperate both to dislodge Dumbledore and to get a Horcrux into Hogwarts. What Harry saw was a melding of soul and memory; that is what tipped of Dumbledore as to what it was. Magical diaries evidently are common enough: no-one was shocked to see that, after all.


This is where Ginny comes into play: had she been what Voldemort expected, then she would quickly have become completely possessed by the Diary and (eventually) died in the Chamber with it. The Basilisk would have been loose and Dumbledore (probably) driven from the castle.

However, Ginny held out remarkably well for an 11 year old: she was even able to throw the thing away! Thus, she did as predicted: she helped


My belief is that he made the ring first. He acquired the ring first and was wearing it when he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes. My guess would be that he made the ring into a Horcrux sometime during his fifth year and hid it at the Gaunt house that summer. Then he created the diary in his sixth year but apparently kept that with him until he gave it to Lucius. It is possible that he could have created a third Horcrux in his seventh year.

Voldie had only one Horcrux when he killed Hepzibah. His eyes only flashed red at that point.

By the time he had made 3 or 4 (the interview), he was quite melted. Dumbledore attributes this to Voldemort's maiming of his soul in HBP. (You can chart the progress quite nicely.)


No, I don't believe he snuck back in after he finished school. I believe he created three Horcruxes while he was in school.

He had made only one years later: his eyes were only flashing red. The idea that it was the Dark Arts was a subterfuge of Voldemort's, although Dumbledore realized in HBP that it was because of what Voldemort was doing to his soul. After all, Voldemort did not want anybody knowing what he was doing: so, he spread false reasons for his metamorphosis.


I don't agree with that logic - it doesn't make much sense. The diary was not hidden at Hogwarts and the only reason Voldemort wanted to get it into Hogwarts was to re-open the Chamber of Secrets and release the basilisk.

The logic is very sensible:
Premise #1: Voldemort wants a Horcrux in Hogwarts, as Hogwarts is important to him (not definite, but consistent with the canon);
Premise #2: Voldemort cannot get into Hogwarts, having been denied by Dumbledore (stated in the canon by Dumbledore);
Premise #3: Because of #2 and a host of other reasons, Voldemort really wants to get Dumbledore out of Hogwarts (pretty much stated in the canon);
Premise #4: Turning a Diary into a Horcrux will transform it from a typical Diary to something much more powerful (Dumbledore confirms this);
Solution: Using the Diary to possess a student and release Slytherin's monster, with instructions to finally descend into the Chamber with the Diary and die there takes advantage of Premise #4 to satisfy Premise #1 (a Horcrux at Hogwarts), Premise #2 (Voldemort need never go there himself) and Premise #3 (the killing of students will result in Dumbledore's dismisal, as almost happened,

That was the beauty of the plan: Basilisk released, Dumbledore driven out AND a Horcrux safely hidden where only the heir of Slytherin could get to it, with a whomping nasty snake guarding it.

The logic was simple and elegant: but a rather willful 11 year old girl delayed it enough to allow it to be thwarted!


Either way you look at it though, there is no reason that there can't be another Horcrux at Hogwarts. Hogwarts is a central location of the books and, from what Jo has told us, will remain so. At least one of the Horcruxes is going to be hidden there.

JKR stated in the big "delusional" interview that the final book is Horcrux hunting. Given that we have no evidence that Voldemort knew how to make them while at Hogwarts, given that there is no reason why he would have put one anywhere in Hogwarts other than in the Chamber of Secrets (there is no evidence that he even knew about the Room of Requirement), and given that by his final year, Voldemort could travel anywhere in the world that he wanted to travel, there simply is no reason for him to leave one there EXCEPT in the Chamber of Secrets. However, the fact that he was sending the Diary there, coupled with the fact that he would not want two Horcruxes int he same place, allows us to eliminate that. (And, of course, Dumbledore was keeping an eye on him: all the more reason why he would not have hidden anything in Hogwarts).

Moreover, even if there is a Hogwarts Horcrux, then Harry will learn of this only after hunting for Horcruxes elsewhere, and learning about Voldemort elsewhere. So, it would almost certainly be after the school year started. (Indeed, Harry would have a better chance of searching Hogwarts as a non-student: as a student, he would be heavily restricted in his wandering!)

The biggest problem with this idea actually is a literary one. If Dumbledore had no clue about a hidden Horcrux at Hogwarts, then how is Ginny supposed to help? Dumbledores' memories of his research of Voldemort will certainly help: for example, did Dumbledore discover where Voldemort learned how to make Horcruxes? Did Dumbledore discover why Albania was so important to Voldemort (possible the same answer). Dumbledore had been working on this for some time: he must have had some additional ideas about places important to Voldemort.

Using Ginny would introduce the same problems that Mafalda Weasley was going to introduce: how would a student know these things? Mafalda was replaced with Rita, but given this, JKR will have planned around this.


Having Horcruxes at Hogwarts introduces as similar problem: after giving us a general pattern, JKR then would resort to a major contrivance (Horcruxes at Hogwarts) that is inconsistent with what she carefully developed in HBP, and that is not necessary. We can see Harry & Ginny develop in the context of the Horcrux Quest (the lovers must be parted, and they must earn each other; it is quite Orphic!). All that it would give us is gratuitous Hogwarts. We do not need anymore Quidditch and we (and Harry) do not need anymore classes: we need to see the trio put their combined skills and powers to work to infer where Voldemort left those other two Horcruxes, then get past them and break the relic. Ginny will get her red-hair into the picture, too. JKR has been building these characters and their skills (Hermione's expertise at Arithmency & Runes, the two skills for cursebreaking, and Ron's general knowledge of the wizarding world have to pay off at some point): to just hand them the Horcruxes between classes would undermine all of that.


And I think we will see something similar occur in book 7. Given Jo's comments, the trio is going to return to school. It appears that a large portion of book 7 is going to occur at Hogwarts - as has been the pattern in all the books thus far. That would suggest that either a Horcrux is hidden there, they will find all the Horcruxes before school starts (unlikely), or will decide to return to school before the search is finished (even more unlikely).

JKR's comments indicate the opposite. There will be no more Quidditch, which indicates no more school. She stated in the interview that the plot for the next book is Horcrux hunting, which means that Harry would not return to Hogwarts unless he had reason, and he'll have to be elsewhere to fiure out that.



I disagree. We know for sure that both the ring and diary Horcuxes were created while he was in school. It is not inconceivable that he created a third in his seventh year. See above.

We know none of these things. We know that Diary was made while he was in school, but we do not know when Voldemort made it a Horcrux. It did not begin that way. We know that he turned the Ring into a Horcrux between 6th year and the time that he murdered Hepzibah: it was gone, and we see the Horcrux damage.

However, if he did make the Ring a Horcrux while at Hogwarts, then we know that a Horcrux that he made at Hogwarts did not have to be hidden there. This invalidates the premise that a Horcrux made at Hogwarts had to remain there.

Again, and even if it were true, NOTHING that Ginny could do could help Harry here. If Dumbledore could not find it, then how could Ginny (or Hermione or Ron)? Even knowing what it might be does not help: that provides them with no indication of where it might be.


But Harry will definitely see Ginny again when they return to school as students. How she could help them is debatable. She could help them with research - Ron and Hermione are not the only ones capable of looking things up in books with Harry.

We know that Harry is not returning as a student. He is going Horcrux hunting. EVEN if he did decide that there was one at Hogwarts, he is not going to start by looking there. He might well revisit Hogwarts (I'll be surprised if he does not), but he cannot track down the localities from Hogwarts. It is too restricting and there simply is not much information about Voldemort there. (Dumbledore's possessions will be either with Aberforth at Hogsmeade, where Harry can visit only 3-4 times a year), or at Grimmauld Place, where Harry cannot visit.)

Also, Ginny cannot help with research: Harry will NOT tell her what he is doing. Besides, what could she research? The libraries do not have in-depth biographies of Voldemort. Dumbledore himself was unable to discover any relics of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor; besides where the unidentified Horcrux is is the big question: it will be obvious once they find it (just as the Ring was, the locket would have been, and the cup will be).


The more plausible scenario is that, after using RAB's possessions to find the 4th Horcrux, he'll visit Aberforth in Hogsmeade. He then will be the background Order member that stands forward. Harry will see Ginny then, and that escapade will lead Harry to the final hidden Horcrux. (I am betting on a non-English location hre.)


There is also a very strong possibility that Ginny could know something and doesn't realize that it is important. Riddle could have told her something when she was writing in the diary - something that seems to be insignificant but is really very important. There are a lot of possibilities.

If the memories were those of the 16 year old Riddle, then he could not have done so. He had not yet made any Horcruxes when he wrote the Diary: he did not learn that they could actually be made for another year! Those memories predate his hiding of the Horcruxes.


Jo has mentioned several items in the past that were seemingly insignificant that turned out to be important.

The Vanishing cabinet came up a few times, in part to establish its properties. This is just Chekov's Gun in reverse. However, nothing in the Room of Requirement was given any distinguishing characters or really has appeared. We'll see Hufflepuffs Cup and something we've almost certainly never seen before, hidden away someplace far away.

Again, given that Dumbledore could not discover artifacts of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindors (save the sword, which Dumbledore knew as not a Horcrux), it would be a plot hole if Ginny (or Hermione or Ron) somehow found something at Hogwarts. Indeed, if we do see some broach with an Eagle on it after Harry et al. defuse a bunch of traps somewhere in Albania, we'll know what it is. The Chekovian requirements are met: it will clearly be a Founder's Relic, protected as we expect a Horcrux to be protected.



Completely agree with you here. If we're going to discuss where Harry and Ginny's relationship is headed there is no avoiding straying off into other topics occasionally while discussing the possibilities of what role Ginny will play in book 7. I think Ginny is going to be most significant in the final battle but she could end up helping them search for the Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts as well.


Yup. If Harry is traveling around (as JKR seems to indicate), and Hogwarts is very much in the background (again indicated by JKR), then this will affect things. Of course, the bigger question to me is, will Ginny be at Hogwarts? Will it reopen? Her parents probably would send her back: but, then, they might decide against it.

However, as there is no reason to think that Voldemort has another Horcrux at Hogwarts, I have to completely disagree there. Also, it would be a plot-hole for Ginny to learn something that Dumbledore could not: what they need is information about places that were important to Voldemort. (Where he actually learned to make a Horcrux would be up there: if the hypothesis that he learned from Grindelwald, the foremost Dark Wizard of the day, is correct, then it would be somewhere in Europe; oh, and we are supposed to see Krum!)

I do agree with you that Ginny will be important. I expect that Harry will attempt to sacrifice himself in the end: it is the only way he really can hope to beat Voldemort, who far outclasses him magically. (Going back to Hogwarts would not help: even fully trained Aurors are no match for Voldemort, and they know more than is taught at Hogwarts.) I would not be surprised if Ginny is what pulls him back.

However, JKR cannot have Ginny doing things that Dumbledore himself was unable to do. She also cannot just send Harry back to school and have everythign fall into his lap by good luck.

Ugh: I can read the corny wedding toasts already: to the boy who lived and the girl he loved.....

Alas, don't confuse bashing and shipping with the opinion that Harry and Ginny will not end up together in the future. True, we got to talking about why it mattered (some felt they were perfect for one another and others disagreed), but the point of the thread "where to from here" to me, can be answered in two words: NO WHERE.

I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny. I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation. Dumbledore asked him if there were no phrophecy would he still want to go after Voldemort and he said yes. So if the sacrificial end for Hermione doesn't happen, then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy. I see a last scene in which Harry has no one, but happily looks around at Ron and Hermione and thinks, 'wow, finally we can really just hang out and be friends'. Unless the book spans many years, he'll still be young and there will be time for many romances in his future. So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.

I think it doesn't matter weather Ginny is right for Harry or not. I am convinced it will be his love for her, in the form of sacrificing his diesire to be with her and wanting to protect her + her insistinse that she is willing to risk her life to be with him that will bring about LV's demise.

Alas, don't confuse bashing and shipping with the opinion that Harry and Ginny will not end up together in the future. True, we got to talking about why it mattered (some felt they were perfect for one another and others disagreed), but the point of the thread "where to from here" to me, can be answered in two words: NO WHERE.

I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny. I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation. Dumbledore asked him if there were no phrophecy would he still want to go after Voldemort and he said yes. So if the sacrificial end for Hermione doesn't happen, then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy. I see a last scene in which Harry has no one, but happily looks around at Ron and Hermione and thinks, 'wow, finally we can really just hang out and be friends'. Unless the book spans many years, he'll still be young and there will be time for many romances in his future. So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.
at first i was rolling my eyes when i read your post, i'm sorry. but when you said "i think jkr will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty" and when you said "if the sacrificial end for hermione doesn't happen," i was reminded of sirius and his rashness. now i dont think we have ever seen ginny being rash, but we do see her often as a passionate girl and even a little hot headed at times. i wonder if she would act the way sirius did when he was dueling with bellatrix? he was confident and i could almost see her teasing a death eater the way he was while fighting.

anyway at the same time i agree with what you said about harry not needing any more motivation to take voldy down, which is why i think hermione, ginny and ron really are safe in the next book.

I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny.

Ideology? That is not the right word. Also, JKR cannot realize that she has not given Ginny the character to be Harry's girl. Instead, the readers have to realize that Ginny is the character to be Harry's girl. If you think differently, then you misunderstand the characters.


I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation.

JKR is not going to start re-writing her overall plot to satisfy a fringe group of fans. Most of the world realized that JKR set Ginny up for Harry while reading OotP!

Also, why give Harry extra motivation when you admit that he needs none?

.... then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy.

JKR won't do that. Ginny does not come across at all as "flighty": to the contrary, she seems very determined and grounded.


So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.

You are allowing your personal tastes to interfere with your perception of JKR's characters!


All of the foreshadowing is for HARRY to be the once who sacrifices himself. Ginny might be the key that brings him back from the brink. (Hermione or Ron also might, but Ginny is a better bet: Harry was genuinely smitten by her.)

Alas, don't confuse bashing and shipping with the opinion that Harry and Ginny will not end up together in the future. True, we got to talking about why it mattered (some felt they were perfect for one another and others disagreed), but the point of the thread "where to from here" to me, can be answered in two words: NO WHERE.

I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny. I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation. Dumbledore asked him if there were no phrophecy would he still want to go after Voldemort and he said yes. So if the sacrificial end for Hermione doesn't happen, then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy. I see a last scene in which Harry has no one, but happily looks around at Ron and Hermione and thinks, 'wow, finally we can really just hang out and be friends'. Unless the book spans many years, he'll still be young and there will be time for many romances in his future. So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.

Is that what you think will happen or what you hope will happen? Because this thread is for discussing where they're headed based on canon, not readers' personal wishes. Jo has said it herself that she is Harry's ideal girl, that's how she wrote the two of them, she is the writer, she decided to make them a perfect match. Ginny has loved Harry for years, and canon dictates that she will continue to whether or not their relationship is postponed. Jo spent time in HBP setting up the main relationships so she won't need to waste time with that in the last book, which will focus on Harry's destruction of Voldemort. She spent 6 books developing Harry and Ginny's relationship, I really do not think she's about to forget about all that and pair Harry or Ginny off with some other random people. The end of HBP almost said "it's not over yet" because it wasn't a normal break up. Like other people have said, I don't think the Remus and Tonks subplot was put into HBP for no reason, and I think it might play some part (such as Remus having a talk with dear ol' Harry) in Harry realizing that breaking it off with Ginny will do no good. Harry needs to embrace all the love he can get and Ginny is as safe with him as she is without him. The difference is, being together, they'll be happy, and that will make a world of a difference. Plus I think as long as Harry tries to push his feelings for Ginny aside, he'll just be distracted, we've seen the effects denying love leaves on people.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy
Alas, don't confuse bashing and shipping with the opinion that Harry and Ginny will not end up together in the future. True, we got to talking about why it mattered (some felt they were perfect for one another and others disagreed), but the point of the thread "where to from here" to me, can be answered in two words: NO WHERE.

I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny. I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation. Dumbledore asked him if there were no phrophecy would he still want to go after Voldemort and he said yes. So if the sacrificial end for Hermione doesn't happen, then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy. I see a last scene in which Harry has no one, but happily looks around at Ron and Hermione and thinks, 'wow, finally we can really just hang out and be friends'. Unless the book spans many years, he'll still be young and there will be time for many romances in his future. So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.

Um, dude. As much as I would love Harry to be with someone else, even I know that that is NOT going to happen.

If that's what you believe, more power to you. But we have to stick to facts. JKR already said it's Harry/Ginny. There's no way around it. And i'm pretty sure she's not going to go back on her word about a pairing that she's been building and building for years. That would be a bit odd. And it's extremely unprobable. And since Harry does love Ginny, I think that even him defeating Voldemort and saving the wizarding world wouldn't make him completely happy, because he'd be losing his parents, his godfather, Dumbledore, AND the love of his life (aargh) to Voldemort. So yeah, Harry will have made the rest of the world happy, but how will he be? Miserable. And as much as I detest Ginny, I would NEVER wisht that on Harry. He has been through too much all ready for that to happen to him. And how did you say Voldemort killing Ginny off would give Harry motivation, but then you say remember, Harry doesn't really need motivation? Please explain that, cause i'm not seeing it. Book seven would not be a bit more enjoyable if the main character was suffering from one of his greatest heartbreaks ever.

So please, actually look at the facts before speaking. It migh help a bit.

Yes it is foreshadowed but there's the fact that Harry's death would mean that his mother's sacrifice was in vain. Her intention wasn't to protect her son so that he could vanquish Voldemort only, but because she loves him and wants what every mother wants for her child and that is to be happy and healthy. It would be symbolic if Harry lives because it would emphasize that after all the hardship and losses, he is finally happy.


Exactly what I was thinking. I'm in agreement that Harry's death would in a very significant way make Lilly's sacrifice in vain. She surely did not intend her sacrifice in order for her son to vanquis Voldemort. She intended her sacrifice so that her son could have a happy life. So far he's had 11 years with the Dursely's, and 5 years of danger from Voldemort.

I'm puzzled as to where people see foreshadowing of Harry's death. I've seen several people say that, but no comments as to why they say that.

So please, actually look at the facts before speaking. It migh help a bit.

Now, now... if people stuck to the facts, then think of all the great things that we wouldn't have!


In a prior post, I noted that having Ginny help Harry find Horcruxes at Hogwarts would be bad from a literary perspective. I noted that this would essentially create plot-holes. I overlooked by far the most critical problem with the idea: it would not contribute at all to the STORY.

The Harry Potter story is one about choices, their motivations and their ramifications. Every book deals with a particular aspect of choice, and each book ends with some summary of what those choices meant in the larger scheme of thing.

HBP is a little different in that we end with major choices, with major ramifications and with major motives. Harry breaks off with Ginny, because he knows that it is the right thing to do even though it is very hard for him to do so. He then goes forward with an additional hard choice: Harry is not returning to Hogwarts. (Again, the "easy" but wrong thing would be to return; the "right" and difficult choice is to go after Voldemort.)

Along the way, Harry makes the right but tough choices of spurning the Ministry and the Order. He is going it alone because, tough as it is, it is the right thing to to.

Then, at the very end, Ron & Hermione make their choices: they, too, are not coming back to Hogwarts, and they are sticking with Harry.


What does this mean for Ginny? Simple. At some point, if her character is going to contribute to the story, then Ginny has to choose between what is right and what is easy. Staying at Hogwarts (or the Burrow, if Hogwarts does not reopen) would be easy. That is what people expect her to do, and nobody would really blame her if she just did what Harry asked of her and stood aside.

And, in doing so, Ginny would: a) deviate greatly from the character that JKR has developed; and, b) become the character that her detractors pretend to see: someone utterly unworthy of Harry Potter. To work as a character in the Harry Potter stories, Ginny has to choose to pursue the trio in some fashion, at some risk to herself (both physical and in terms of what people will think of her dropping out of school, etc.) AND despite being told not to do it. After all, one of the recurrent themes of Harry Potter is that following orders is not always the right choice.

This really means that Ginny has to be there at the end, and preferably when the find the 5th Horcrux. (I think that about half of the book with pretty much just the trio would be appropriate: the story begins focused on those three, and we should get a healthy dose of that at the end.)

The easiest way for JKR to do this is a classic one: the "trophy" lover ceases to be the trophy and pursues the "hero" lover to aid the latter's quest.

If JKR does something like this, then Ginny's actions will be part of the story and not just part of the plot.


I'm puzzled as to where people see foreshadowing of Harry's death. I've seen several people say that, but no comments as to why they say that.

It goes back to the first book, where we see Ron (the leader of the chessboard) sacrifice himself to get his friends onwards. Harry is now the leader, so Ron's action would be a metaphor for Harry's.

Almost every book has had at least one line/action foreshadowing this. For example, "I'll take as many Death Eaters with me as I can: and Voldemort, too, if I can" is a foreshadowing line, as Harry is not making a prediction but simply showing bravado. Voldemort's lines to Harry in both CoS and GoF that his mother only borrowed Harry time and postponed the inevitable foreshadow, as if Harry does die, then it will be because of Voldemort (although NOT the way the Voldemort meant!), and his mother's sacrifice will be a key reason as to how Harry's sacrifice will kill Voldemort.

Even some of the "extracurriculars" foreshadow Harry's sacrifice: Lupin's line to Harry in PoA that he (Harry) is more like his parents than he knows and that he will someday realize that will, if Harry dies in the end, look like a clue to this effect.

A lot will depend on where Harry's travel takes him. The lovers are parted: she'll be at Hogwarts or the Burrow; Harry will be traipsing about looking for Regulus' locket, and then the other two Horcrux localities. Ginny will know that Harry is up to something: she'll hear her mother's screaming, if nothing else, and if she returns to Hogwarts, then Harry's absence will be noted. (She'll probably be the new Quidditch captain, I should think.)


I agree with many of your comments. But I will offer a different viewpoint on one point. JKR has had the series plotted out for ten years. JKR has clearly stated on several occasions that all 7 books take place at Hogwarts, so Harry has to be there most of the time. Here's an example:
"I always conceived it as a seven-book series because I decided that it would take seven years from the ages of 11-17, inclusive, to train as a wizard, and each of the books would deal with a year of Harry's life at Hogwarts" Scholastic interview, ~2001

If, indeed, most of the seventh book is at Hogwarts, then out of necessity, I think it likely that at least one, probably two Horcruxes are at Hogwarts. I think it's very likely that one is in the Chamber of Secrets. It's obviously a very important place to Tom Riddle, and since he was the only person to open it in 1,000 years, it must have seemed safer than anywhere else in the world. No-one else knew where it was, or even if it really existed. But Harry is certainly an exception.
It's possible, but I doubt that a second horcrux was deliberately hidden in Hogwart's. Perhaps Riddle left a second one there if he was forced to by some circumstance that interrupted his plans. However, I think it's more likely that the locket at Grimauld place has been stolen by Mundungus, in which case he'll sell it to someone, and somebody will end up who innocently carries it into Hogwarts.

Again, this is part of the problem with trying to discuss the story in pieces. Where Harry + Ginny go from here depends so much on where the plot takes Harry. Given the character that JKR has developed for Ginny, I'll be stunned if she does not get heavily involved. It seems to be in her nature to want to help (look at what she does for Harry and friends in OotP and HBP, and what she does to her enemies!), and JKR will want Harry's mate to be worthy of him. ..........
However, if you think that Ginny is a forceful dynamic character with genuine feelings for Harry and a determination to both keep him alive AND keep him period, then you expect something else.
Indeed, my wife noted something immediately after we read HBP: Ginny never truly accepted Harry's breakup. Her translation (yup, "Mad things girls do so that boys can understand them") was: "I never really gave up on you before, and I'm sure as Hades not giving up on you now, you heroic idiot....."

I very much agree. I expect to see a lot of Ginny in the last book. I also agree, there's no way in the world that Ginny's going to give up on Harry. She hasn't a thought in the world of doing that.

so what are everyone's thoughts: will jk have ginny stepping up to harry and telling him he's silly in the very beginning of the book? or will we have to sweat it out?
personally, and this is what i would do as well, i see ginny in the very beginning of the book telling harry that he can't tell her what to do. she's fiesty.

I agree, Ginny is very feisty. And she might well approach Harry directly. But Ginny also has a number of other strong characteristics. I believe that she has much better people skills than Harry (not surprising for a boy). Ginny is also clever, and often insightful, esp. in regards to Harry. So she may decide to wait a while, expecting Harry to come around on his own. Or maybe she'll do something indirect. Ginny will do whatever she thinks will work the best, and she'll probably be right. But there's no way she'll give up on Harry; if she sees him in need of help, she'll be there in a jiffy.

Actually, I'm almost dying of curiosity to know how Ginny will respond.

I really hope that Ginny and Harry both live. I think Harry's love for Ginny will make him stronger, but them not being togther may make Harry weaker. I don't think that it is over for either of them.

It goes back to the first book, where we see Ron (the leader of the chessboard) sacrifice himself to get his friends onwards. Harry is now the leader, so Ron's action would be a metaphor for Harry's.

Almost every book has had at least one line/action foreshadowing this. For example, "I'll take as many Death Eaters with me as I can: and Voldemort, too, if I can" is a foreshadowing line, as Harry is not making a prediction but simply showing bravado. Voldemort's lines to Harry in both CoS and GoF that his mother only borrowed Harry time and postponed the inevitable foreshadow, as if Harry does die, then it will be because of Voldemort (although NOT the way the Voldemort meant!), and his mother's sacrifice will be a key reason as to how Harry's sacrifice will kill Voldemort.

Even some of the "extracurriculars" foreshadow Harry's sacrifice: Lupin's line to Harry in PoA that he (Harry) is more like his parents than he knows and that he will someday realize that will, if Harry dies in the end, look like a clue to this effect.

OK, I see what why you might interpret it that way. But I see it differently; these are all very vague connections. Many people see Ron's sacrifice in the chess game as foreshadowing Ron's death. For myself, I don't think it foreshadows anybody's death. And I wouldn't consider Voldemort as a reliable source for foreshadowing. Voldemort is just saying what he hopes will happen.

Lupin's line could be referring to all kinds of things - for example, Harry's eyes being like his mothers; JKR has clearly indicated that Harry's eyes being like his mothers is very important, and Lupin could be foreshadowing the same thing. Also, if Lupin says that he (Harry) is more like his parents than he knows and that he will someday realize that - if that is foreshadowing Harry's death, it's awful hard to see how Harry dying will make Harry realize how much he's like his parents. After all, Harry will be dead, and not in a good position to realize anything, at least not anything that we on the living side could know about.

The easiest way for JKR to do this is a classic one: the "trophy" lover ceases to be the trophy and pursues the "hero" lover to aid the latter's quest.

If JKR does something like this, then Ginny's actions will be part of the story and not just part of the plot.


I'll agree with this comment wholeheartedly. It makes a lot of sense to me because it's consistent with Ginny's character.

"I always conceived it as a seven-book series because I decided that it would take seven years from the ages of 11-17, inclusive, to train as a wizard, and each of the books would deal with a year of Harry's life at Hogwarts" Scholastic interview, ~2001

Well, does not mean too much: she could not state at the time that the 7th book would depart from this! Remember, the stories are not about Hogwarts: it is just a setting, and one that is irrelevant no. The plot and story have moved away from Hogwarts, now.

Remember, she essentially acknowledged in the "Delusional" Interview that the last book is Horcrux hunting. Harry might go back to Hogwarts as a result of his hunt, but he has made his choice to hunt the Horcruxes. Hogwarts will be a place to visit, not the main background.

The upshot is that it will leave Ginny with a choice befitting to : whether to pursue Harry (hard but right) or stay put (easy but wrong). Harry, Ron & Hermione have made theirs, now Ginny needs to make hers. (Neville and Luna might figure into this, also: the OotP sextet might foreshadow what is to come.)


If, indeed, most of the seventh book is at Hogwarts, then out of necessity, I think it likely that at least one, probably two Horcruxes are at Hogwarts. I think it's very likely that one is in the Chamber of Secrets.

Yes, the Chamber was very important to Voldemort. However, he would not put two Horcruxes in any location. Remember, the Diary was supposed to go to the Chamber.


It's possible, but I doubt that a second horcrux was deliberately hidden in Hogwart's. Perhaps Riddle left a second one there if he was forced to by some circumstance that interrupted his plans.

Keep in mind that Voldemort had made (at most) only one Horcrux upon leaving Hogwarts; we do not know if he had learned the spell by that time. That one was the Ring, and he hid that elsewhere.

Voldemort's Horcrux progress is nicely charted by his physical deterioration: he had only slightly reddish eyes with just the Ring, but a melted, distorted visage with permanently red eyes after 3-4 Horcruxes (Ring, Cup, Locket and possibly Diary). He probably had only 3 at that point, because he was at full snake-like Voldemort after 5.


However, I think it's more likely that the locket at Grimauld place has been stolen by Mundungus, in which case he'll sell it to someone, and somebody will end up who innocently carries it into Hogwarts.

This is very unlikely. Mundungus was busted while still stealing the easy to get stuff that he had been eying in OotP. The locket (hopefully!) was snatched by Kreacher, and stashed in his well-hidden lair by the boiler. With all of the easy-to-steal loot, Mundungus would not yet have searched out such things.

Of course, the locket might actually have made it into the garbage, but somehow I expect that Regulus gave Kreacher pretty strict orders about that.....


I agree, Ginny is very feisty. And she might well approach Harry directly. But Ginny also has a number of other strong characteristics.

This is the scenario that I envision: Harry et al. will find the locket through Kreacher. Kreacher will have possession or memory of Regulus' search, and this will provide the hiding place for Horcrux #4. (I'm betting the Riddle house, although that is a bit close to the Gaunt Shack; the orphanage, where Voldemort learned what he was, is another possibility, and Regulus must have learned about that if he learned about the cave.)

Four down and one hidden Horcrux to go: what do they do next? Find Dumbledore's possessions and see if he left any useful information. Where are those? Probably with Aberforth at Hogsmeade. This allows our charming red-head to re-enter the scene. Indeed, the Trio probably willl have to go to Hogwarts to find out where Dumbledore's stuff is.

At this point, Ginny will first offer to accompany the trio (although they won't tell her what they are doing at Hogsmeade, nor exactly why they did not return to school). Ron in particular will rebuff her, hypocritically mimicking the things that we know Mrs. Weasley will say to him when she learns that Ron is not returning to school.

Ginny will then decide that she'll follow. We'll see some of her powerful magic then.

If Dumbledore were still alive, would he want Harry and Ginny to stay together, since this may help Harry love more?

Well, does not mean too much: she could not state at the time that the 7th book would depart from this! Remember, the stories are not about Hogwarts: it is just a setting, and one that is irrelevant no. The plot and story have moved away from Hogwarts, now.

Remember, she essentially acknowledged in the "Delusional" Interview that the last book is Horcrux hunting. Harry might go back there as a result, but he has made his choice to hunt the Horcruxes.

This will be important thematically, as it will leave Ginny with a more thematic choice: whether to pursue Harry (hard but right) or stay put (easy but wrong).


Well, you could be right. It will be interesting to see how many predictions any of us can get right. But I'm sticking with my prediction that Hogwarts is the main locale for book 7. JKR has had the series plotted out for 10 years, she's continued to say that she's sticking to her basic plot, she's said multiple times that there are 7 books for 7 years at Hogwarts, and she's said that she's never deliberately said anything misleading, and as far as she knows, everything she's said publicly is a fair representation of the story. I don't interpret her comment about the Horcruxes as meaning that Harry can't return to Hogwarts.

If you turn out to be right that Harry is not at Hogwarts, I would agree with you that Ginny will follow him. But I don't think that she would find that a hard choice. I think she would think it to be both the right choice and what she wants to do, following her heart.

Trying to make predictions are one of the things that make these books so much fun. Before the last book comes out I want to make some kind of list, and see how many I can get right. If we look at all the predictions various people make on the web, there might be only 10% that turn out right. I hope I bat better than that, but who knows.

Alas, don't confuse bashing and shipping with the opinion that Harry and Ginny will not end up together in the future. True, we got to talking about why it mattered (some felt they were perfect for one another and others disagreed).
It would be easier not to confuse character bashing with a disinclination towards the Harry/Ginny pairing if the two did not so rampantly run together. In most cases, if people dislike the idea of Harry/Ginny for whatever reason, they usually take out their hostility towards J.K. Rowling for writing the pairing by villifying and abusing a fictional character, which is, of course, Ginny.

but the point of the thread "where to from here" to me, can be answered in two words: NO WHERE.
I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny. I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation. Dumbledore asked him if there were no phrophecy would he still want to go after Voldemort and he said yes. So if the sacrificial end for Hermione doesn't happen, then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy. I see a last scene in which Harry has no one, but happily looks around at Ron and Hermione and thinks, 'wow, finally we can really just hang out and be friends'. Unless the book spans many years, he'll still be young and there will be time for many romances in his future. So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.

J.K. Rowling has had these books mapped out in her mind for fifteen years, I think. Do you not think that since she was intending for Harry and Ginny to fall in love from Day 1 that she had plenty of time to carefully craft the characters so they fit well together romantically? And had she realised they were incompatible (which would not happen because she is the author and she can make her characters be whatever she likes...but for arguments sake) first of all, she would have realised it very early on in the past fifteen years, and secondly she would never have left any of the subtle Harry/Ginny foreshadowing in the books had she come to that conclusion. The clues would have been ripped uncerimoniously out of the storyline.

And so now, after over a decade of building up to the Harry/Ginny relationship, you propose that she will suddenly wake up and say, "Oh my gosh! I am a complete idiot! What have I been thinking, building up to a romance between Harry and Ginny for all these years? They are totally incompatible! How the hell am I going to fix this?! I know! I will just bumb her off in the last book, completely ignoring Harry's love for her and how heartbroken he will be that she's dead, most likly launching him into some sort of Shakespearian Romeo-esqe depression, leading to his utter self-destruction, having finally snapped after losing so many loved ones." You know what? Somehow I doubt this will happen.

I will bottom-line it for you: It does not matter what you or I or the next neighbor thinks about the compatibility of Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley. J.K. Rowling thinks they are compatible because she wrote them to be compatible, and hers is the only opinion that matters because she is the person who writes the books. Her word is law. If the author believes Ginny is Harry's ideal girl, and if she has told us that the romance issue has been definitively decided and Harry and Ginny is what we get, than there is no, "If both of them survive they'll decide they aren't meant to be and move on to other people." Point black: IF THERE IS ANY ROMANCE IN HARRY AND GINNY'S FUTURES, IT WILL BE WITH EACH OTHER OR NO ONE AT ALL.

I don't know how it could possibly be any clearer. There are only three options from here on out. 1)If they both survive the final confrontation, which is a big 'if' at this point, they will come together again, providing they haven't already done so before. 2)If one of them dies, the other will most likely mourn his or her lost lover and the life together that had been taken from them before it could really start, for the rest of their lives. It will be something he nor she will ever fully get over. & 3)Considering that they both may die, then I suppose their future will have them lying side by side six feet under.

Ugh. I just realised how morbid and depressing those last two options sounded. I'll keep my fingers crossed that we wind up with the first and not the second or third.

I just don't get why some people do not like Ginny. Ginny is right for Harry, well because JKR said so (right?). Ginny is there when Harry needs her, and I hope will be there for him in book 7. - I agree

- I think Ginny is the best female character in the series and written in a way that the other females can't match up because they look weak.

- JKR did well with Harry's future spouse.

Well, I was parrotting Dumbledore's reasons! However, consider these again. Voldemort had the Slytherin and Hufflepuff relics, but after 10 years, he had not found Gryffindor or Ravenclaw relics. As far as Dumbledore could determine, Voldemort did not have them 20 years later when he (Voldie) attempted to kill Harry. Hogwarts was the place with the best chance of finding them: of course Voldemort would want to start there.

And, yes, Voldemort was building a band of followers. However, is was a cadre of apparent friends. He was able to build a following eventually, but it took him another 10 years after he interviewed at Hogwarts, and it was much smaller than it could have been had he been at Hogwarts. Had he been indoctrinating students as a teacher, he would have had far more Death Eaters and far more sympathizers in high places.

So, it was not that these things were impossible outside of Hogwarts. Instead, it is that they would have been much easier for Voldemort to accomplish if he had been a Hogwarts professor.

And, as for Voldemort's curse, why would his viewing of Hogwarts as his home affect that? He wanted the position, and therefore he took retribution upon being denied it. If he could not have the job, then nobody could.

I'm not disagreeing that there were other reasons that he wanted to be at Hogwarts. What I'm saying is that Voldemort did not want any of his Horcruxes hidden at Hogwarts. He was forced to leave one there while at school and is desperate to get it out of there.

It is true that he made the Diary while 16. However, it began as a Diary and was later made a Horcrux. The available evidence suggests that the "Horcruxing" was much later than that. It probably was the 4th or 5th Horcrux made, after Voldemort became desperate both to dislodge Dumbledore and to get a Horcrux into Hogwarts. What Harry saw was a melding of soul and memory; that is what tipped of Dumbledore as to what it was. Magical diaries evidently are common enough: no-one was shocked to see that, after all.

I disagree. I think that Riddle started on his Horcruxes before he figured out how to open the Chamber - possibly simultaneously but I doubt it. Slughorn's memory suggests that Riddle was asking about Horcruxes before the Chamber was open - he had several students in his office chatting with them until a late hour, at which point they left on their own. This makes me think that this event occurred before Riddle began opening the chamber.

This is how I see the order of events based on what we learned about Tom Riddle in COS and HBP. Oh, and just to be clear, I am of the opinion that Voldemort's physical change was brought about by his practices of the Dark Arts as well as making the Horcruxes. Dumbledore's statements support that. Anyway, back to the order of events.

Riddle believed that his father was a wizard - he saw his mother as weak because she died and assumed that she was the muggle. He spent his first few years at Hogwarts trying to find out who his father was and finally had to accept that it was his father who was the muggle and his mother was a witch. At that point, he discovered who his mother was and learned about her family. During the summer, he goes to Little Hangleton and meets Morfin, finds out about his heritage, kills his father and grandparents, does the memory charm on Morfin, and takes the ring.

At some point during this time, he learns of Horcruxes. When he returns to school, he charms Slughorn into telling him about them - he is wearing the ring at that point. Somehow, he learns how to make one. He decides to make the ring a Horcrux. He also has learned that he is the heir of Slytherin and learns how to get into the Chamber of Secrets. He opens the chamber, students are attacked and Myrtle gets killed. He requests to be allowed to stay at Hogwarts over the summer and discovers that they are talking about closing the school because of the attacks. He does not want the school closed so he frames Hagrid and stops opening the Chamber. He realizes that Dumbledore is suspicious of him and knows it would be too risky for him to open the chamber again while he is at school. He still has the desire to finish Slytherin's "noble work" and comes up with a way to do so by creating the diary. His plan was for the diary to be used at a future date to control someone else - thereby enabling him to re-open the chamber and finish Slytherin's work.

Now, according to Dumbledore in HBP, the diary did not work as a normal magical diary would. If Riddle had just used it to store his memory, it would not have allowed him to possess someone. The person writing in the diary would just write in it and receive responses from Riddle based on his memory up to that point. In order for the diary to work the way Riddle intended, it had to contain a piece of his soul. That is my understanding of it based on Dumbledore's explanation. So, Riddle made the diary into a Horcrux and then added his memory - his knowledge - to it with the intention of getting it back into the school at a later date - after he was no longer a student - so that the basilisk could kill off all the muggleborn students. Riddle didn't seem to care whether or not Hogwarts was closed after he left - he just wanted it to remain open while he was a student - again, my understanding based on Dumbledore's explanation and what Riddle said to Harry down in the chamber. He knew that the possibility existed that the diary would be discovered and destroyed but decided that was an acceptable risk because he would still have more Horcruxes - he had already decided to make seven.

He now has two Horcruxes - one of which could possibly be destroyed when he enacts his plan to re-open the chamber. He hides the ring at the Gaunt house and protects it with enchantments. He keeps the diary with him. This is the timeline of events as indicated by canon - what has been explained thus far.

Now, this part is speculation based on the above and the introduction of the Room of Requirement being used as a quick hiding place for students and various objects described at random in that room. Riddle knows that he is a descendent of Slytherin - he acquired Marvolo's ring and made it into a Horcrux because it was important to him - he also learned of the existence of Slytherin's locket at that time - that his mother took it when she left home. He made the diary into a Horcrux and added his memory with the intention of using it to re-open the chamber. Sometime, during his final year at Hogwarts, he learns of the existence of the tiara and that it once belonged to Rowena Ravenclaw - for debating purposes I'm going to say that one of the students or teachers was a descendent of Ravenclaw and had the tiara - possibly the student was showing it off or bragging about it - or, if it was a teacher, answered questions about it and where it came from. Riddle gets the idea to make his remaining Horcruxes using artifacts that belonged the founders. He steals the tiara near the end of the year thinking that the theft probably won't be discovered until after the term is over and makes it into a Horcrux. He has committed enough murders at this point for it to be possible for him to have made three Horcruxes - his father, grandfather, grandmother, and Myrtle. He makes the tiara a Horcrux.

To his chagrin, the theft is discovered. He cannot risk being caught with the tiara in his possession. He hides it in the Room of Requirement with the intention of retrieving it and taking it with him when he leaves school to hide it in a safer place - a place that he will have access to and where he can put his own protections around it. Unfortunately, he cannot go back to get it. Dumbledore is watching him too closely. He decides to leave the tiara at Hogwarts and come back for it later. He asks the Headmaster for a job teaching at Hogwarts because that would enable him to come back for the tiara - as well as allowing him to stay at the one place he has considered home. Professor Dippet turns him down, saying he is too young but tells him to re-apply in a few years. Riddle has no choice but to agree to this.

He leaves school and rather than get a job with the ministry, he takes a clerk position and Burgin and Borkes. His goal is to search out other artifacts belonging to the other founders. He lucks out and Hepzibah Smith shows him Hufflepuff's cup and Slytherins locket - the very locket that had once belonged to his mother. He kills Hepzibah Smith and steals the locket and the cup. That murder allows him to make one of those items into a Horcrux - most likely the locket because it would have been more significant to him because he would have considered it his by right because it had been his mother's, handed down from Slytherin himself. He hides the locket in the cave and surrounds it with protections. He now has four Horcruxes and, following the murder of Hepzibah Smith, he disappears - sinking so deep into his studies of the Dark Arts that, in conjunction with the removal of pieces of his soul, his appearance begins to change. He fully becomes Lord Voldemort - unrecognizable to the handsome, talented boy who was once Head Boy at Hogwarts. At some point during his wanderings and studies of the Dark Arts, he committs another murder - victim unknown - and makes the cup into the fifth Horcrux. He is gone for a number of years.

He returns to Hogwarts where Dumbledore has become headmaster. At this point, he has begun his efforts to build an army and is already planning on taking over - being the most powerful wizard in the world. He realizes that, with Dumbledore as headmaster, he has to get that tiara out of Hogwarts. Dumbledore could find it and figure out what it is - some random student could find it and either take it for themselves, not knowing what it is - or turn it in to Dumbledore. He asks Dumbledore for the DADA position. Dumbledore knows that he has ulterior motives and refuses him the position. He curses the job in his anger. It is important to note that he now has five Horcruxes and has sank into the Dark Arts very deeply yet in Dumbledore's memory Harry notes that his appearance has started to change but he has not yet reached the point of the physical appearance that Harry saw in GOF and OOTP.

He has no choice but to leave the tiara hidden at Hogwarts and hope that no one discovers it. He begins building his army - gathering supporters and eventually trying to take over. The first war begins. During this time, he is searching for something belonging to Gryffindor - the only founder that he has not found an artifact for. Whether or not he found something or gave up and decided to use another object is debatable. The prophecy is made and the candidates are narrowed down to the Longbottoms and the Potters. Snape tells Voldemort of the prophecy. After a year of hunting them, Pettigrew betrays them. Voldemort decides to use Harry's murder to make his sixth, and final, Horcrux. He attacks Harry and we all know what happened from there.

A lot of that is pure speculation but, based on Dumbledore's comments, Riddle's comments in COS, and things that Jo has said, I think that is the most likely order of events.

This is where Ginny comes into play: had she been what Voldemort expected, then she would quickly have become completely possessed by the Diary and (eventually) died in the Chamber with it. The Basilisk would have been loose and Dumbledore (probably) driven from the castle.

However, Ginny held out remarkably well for an 11 year old: she was even able to throw the thing away! Thus, she did as predicted: she helped

I agree with you there but there is no reason to assume that she won't help again in some way.

Voldie had only one Horcrux when he killed Hepzibah. His eyes only flashed red at that point.

By the time he had made 3 or 4 (the interview), he was quite melted. Dumbledore attributes this to Voldemort's maiming of his soul in HBP. (You can chart the progress quite nicely.)

From what Dumbledore said, I understood it to mean that it was the fact that he made the Horcruxes and sank so deep into the Dark Arts that changed his appearance. Harry notes that Voldemort's appearance is altered in the interview but it he has not yet reached the appearance that Harry recognizes as Voldemort. The change has just started.

I think Voldemort had five Horcruxes by the time of the interview. The Ring, the diary, the tiara, the locket, and the cup. Canon suggests that he had three Horcruxes at the time of Hepzibah Smith's murder.

He had made only one years later: his eyes were only flashing red. The idea that it was the Dark Arts was a subterfuge of Voldemort's, although Dumbledore realized in HBP that it was because of what Voldemort was doing to his soul. After all, Voldemort did not want anybody knowing what he was doing: so, he spread false reasons for his metamorphosis.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Dumbledore's comments give me the understanding that it was both things in conjunction that caused the change in his appearance. He had five Horcruxes at the time of the interview - only one left to make - and still, his appearance had not degraded to the point of what Harry saw in GOF.

The logic is very sensible:
Premise #1: Voldemort wants a Horcrux in Hogwarts, as Hogwarts is important to him (not definite, but consistent with the canon);
Premise #2: Voldemort cannot get into Hogwarts, having been denied by Dumbledore (stated in the canon by Dumbledore);
Premise #3: Because of #2 and a host of other reasons, Voldemort really wants to get Dumbledore out of Hogwarts (pretty much stated in the canon);
Premise #4: Turning a Diary into a Horcrux will transform it from a typical Diary to something much more powerful (Dumbledore confirms this);
Solution: Using the Diary to possess a student and release Slytherin's monster, with instructions to finally descend into the Chamber with the Diary and die there takes advantage of Premise #4 to satisfy Premise #1 (a Horcrux at Hogwarts), Premise #2 (Voldemort need never go there himself) and Premise #3 (the killing of students will result in Dumbledore's dismisal, as almost happened,

That was the beauty of the plan: Basilisk released, Dumbledore driven out AND a Horcrux safely hidden where only the heir of Slytherin could get to it, with a whomping nasty snake guarding it.

The logic was simple and elegant: but a rather willful 11 year old girl delayed it enough to allow it to be thwarted!

I disagree that Voldemort wants a Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts. I think Hogwarts - particularly with Dumbledore as headmaster - is the last place he wants one of his Horcruxes to be hidden. I think there is a Horcrux there but that he is desperate to get it out of there before it is discovered. He wants to hide it somewhere where he can protect it and not have to worry about it being found by accident or discovered by Dumbledore.

I don't believe the diary was ever intended to be hidden at Hogwarts. My understanding of his plan was that he intended for a student to use the diary - open the chamber so the basilisk could kill all the muggleborns - and then the diary would be returned to him after the task was completed - removed from Hogwarts and hidden somewhere with his own protections around it. He did accept the risk that the diary could be destroyed in the process but decided that was acceptable because he would still have five other Horcruxes to rely on. But I maintain that Voldemort would not want one of his Horcruxes to remain at Hogwarts indefinitely. For the purposes of the Horcruxes, Hogwarts would not be a good hiding place at all.

JKR stated in the big "delusional" interview that the final book is Horcrux hunting. Given that we have no evidence that Voldemort knew how to make them while at Hogwarts, given that there is no reason why he would have put one anywhere in Hogwarts other than in the Chamber of Secrets (there is no evidence that he even knew about the Room of Requirement), and given that by his final year, Voldemort could travel anywhere in the world that he wanted to travel, there simply is no reason for him to leave one there EXCEPT in the Chamber of Secrets. However, the fact that he was sending the Diary there, coupled with the fact that he would not want two Horcruxes int he same place, allows us to eliminate that. (And, of course, Dumbledore was keeping an eye on him: all the more reason why he would not have hidden anything in Hogwarts).

Slughorn's memory says different. Riddle began researching Horcruxes sometime in his fifth or sixth year. We know he made the diary into a Horcrux before leaving Hogwarts - Dumbledore said it worked the way it did because it was a Horcrux - Riddle's memory would not have been enough for Ginny to be controled by the diary like that. Riddle's intention was for the diary to be used by a student under his control to re-open the chamber. He had to make the diary a Horcrux in order to do that. Canon suggests that he made at least two Horcruxes before leaving school and it is very possible that he made three.

I don't believe he wanted any of his Horcruxes hidden at Hogwarts - he did it out of necessity and is desperate to get it out of there before it is discovered either by accident or by Dumbledore. The fact that the Room of Requirement was shown to have use as a hiding place by many, many students over many, many years is significant. Harry didn't have to hide the potions book there - Snape did not demand to search his room, he only asked him to bring him his books. The introduction of the Room of Requirement as a hiding place could very well be significant to book 7.

The Chamber of Secrets is another good possibility, which I discuss in more detail below. Again, I don't believe Voldemort wanted any of his Horcruxes hidden at Hogwarts. The diary was supposed to be used to open the chamber to finish Slytherin's work and then be returned to Voldemort with the risk that it would be destroyed in the process.

And I am not saying that Voldemort did this after he left school. I believe all this happened while he was in school. The third Horcrux was most likely made near the end of his seventh year. 3/7 of his soul missing would not alter his appearance that much. His appearance had not been greatly altered after making five - Harry notes that he had not yet reached the appearance as he saw him in GOF. It wasn't until he delved so deep into the Dark Arts and he made the sixth and final Horcrux that his appearance changed so greatly.

Moreover, even if there is a Hogwarts Horcrux, then Harry will learn of this only after hunting for Horcruxes elsewhere, and learning about Voldemort elsewhere. So, it would almost certainly be after the school year started. (Indeed, Harry would have a better chance of searching Hogwarts as a non-student: as a student, he would be heavily restricted in his wandering!)

He has not been that restricted in his wanderings thus far so I don't agree. Harry has accomplished quite a bit of surreptitious wandering around the castle after hours thanks to the map and his cloak. I don't see that as a major problem. As I said before, I think the school will be re-opened with heavy restrictions in place so I don't think he would have any access to Hogwarts at all unless he is a student.

You also have to consider the fact that term ended early in HBP. Instead of ending at the end of June - as it normally does - term ended sometime around the end of May, giving them an extra month. There are four Horcruxes for them to find - the ring and the diary have both been destroyed.

1) Slytherin's locket - I don't think it will take them that long to realize that R.A.B. is Sirius' brother Regulus and for one of them to make the connection to the heavy locket mentioned in OOTP. This Horcrux may have already been destroyed - they need only to verify that. If it hasn't, then they must destroy it.

2) Hufflepuff's cup - I firmly believe that Dumbledore will leave things to Harry that will help him locate the remaining Horcruxes. The pensieve with some of his memories - notes - a letter - something. Whatever it is - or they are - Harry will be able to locate this Horcrux before school starts because he will have some assistance from Dumbledore. I'm guessing that either the orphanage where Riddle grew up or the Riddle house itself are good possibilities for this one.

3)Unknown Ravenclaw/Gryffindor item - I believe this will be a Ravenclaw item as I stated above - most likely the tiara in the Room of Requirement. This could be where Ginny comes into play. It is very possible that she knows something about this because of her writing in Riddle's diary all that time - something that seems insignificant but is actually important. Riddle showed Harry his "capture" of Hagrid to gain his trust. He could have done something similar with Ginny by either showing her or telling her about a student who had a tiara stolen while he was at school. Or possibly he could have just mentioned the fact that the room could be used as a hiding place and/or mentioned that he hid something there once. It doesn't have to be something major but something small that, when added to what Harry already knows, clicks everything into place.

I believe that, after they locate and destroy the locket and the cup (or verify the destruction of the locket), they will discover that this Horcrux is hidden at Hogwarts. This could occur through their research - learning about the theft that occurred 50 years ago or something in whatever Dumbledore leaves Harry. But they will discover that a Horcrux is hidden there and return to school as students. I don't think they would be allowed access otherwise.

The biggest problem with this idea actually is a literary one. If Dumbledore had no clue about a hidden Horcrux at Hogwarts, then how is Ginny supposed to help? Dumbledores' memories of his research of Voldemort will certainly help: for example, did Dumbledore discover where Voldemort learned how to make Horcruxes? Did Dumbledore discover why Albania was so important to Voldemort (possible the same answer). Dumbledore had been working on this for some time: he must have had some additional ideas about places important to Voldemort.

Using Ginny would introduce the same problems that Mafalda Weasley was going to introduce: how would a student know these things? Mafalda was replaced with Rita, but given this, JKR will have planned around this.

As I said above, I think Dumbledore will leave Harry something (or things) that will assist him and give him the information he needs. As for Ginny, it is very possible that she could have learned something from the diary, again, as I stated above. The fact that Ginny communicated with Tom Riddle for a year makes a difference there. She could very easily know something that Dumbledore did not because of that - something that she does not realize is important because she does not know about the Horcruxes.

Having Horcruxes at Hogwarts introduces as similar problem: after giving us a general pattern, JKR then would resort to a major contrivance (Horcruxes at Hogwarts) that is inconsistent with what she carefully developed in HBP, and that is not necessary. We can see Harry & Ginny develop in the context of the Horcrux Quest (the lovers must be parted, and they must earn each other; it is quite Orphic!). All that it would give us is gratuitous Hogwarts. We do not need anymore Quidditch and we (and Harry) do not need anymore classes: we need to see the trio put their combined skills and powers to work to infer where Voldemort left those other two Horcruxes, then get past them and break the relic. Ginny will get her red-hair into the picture, too. JKR has been building these characters and their skills (Hermione's expertise at Arithmency & Runes, the two skills for cursebreaking, and Ron's general knowledge of the wizarding world have to pay off at some point): to just hand them the Horcruxes between classes would undermine all of that.

I don't agree. Hogwarts has been a central location in every book - major events to the overall plot have occurred there. When I was reading HBP and Dumbledore and Harry were discussing the Horcruxes and having to find them, my first thought was that there has to be one hidden at Hogwarts. It is only fitting because of the fact that it is and always has been a central location and a very important place to Harry. Having one of the Horcruxes hidden at Hogwarts seems very logical to me based on what has occurred in the previous books.

I don't think the Horcrux is just going to fall into their laps with no effort at all. All they will know when they return to school is that a Horcrux is there. They won't know what it is or where it could be. They will have to search for it.

The other possibility that I have considered for this - which I think is just as likely as the tiara - is the fact that the unknown Horcrux is a Gryffindor item and is hidden in the Chamber of Secrets. That is logical as well. Actually, that would probably fit better. In need of a hiding place, Riddle would likely have used the Chamber because he was the only one who knew where it was and how to get into it. In that case, the Horcrux might be better protected that if it were just put into the Room of Requirement.

Again, Ginny could be helpful here. She was in the Chamber with the diary and then Tom when he came out of the diary. She might have seen something then - or Tom may have told her something then - before she lost consciousness. Harry did not fully explore the chamber in COS - he was too busy fighting the basilisk and then Tom and too concerned about Ginny. There was a thread at one time discussing the possibility of there being more to the chamber. It was called the Chamber of Secrets - pleural, indicating that there is more than one secret within the chamber. There has never been any mention of whether or not Dumbledore went into the chamber after the events of COS. So, that is another possibility that is very likely.

4) Nagini - I think Dumbledore was right in his speculation that Nagini is the final Horcrux. Logically, they cannot go after Nagini until all of the other Horcruxes have been located and destroyed because when they go after Nagini the final battle will begin because Voldemort keeps Nagini close to him.

I think it will play out in a pattern similar to the previous books - most likely GOF or OOTP. They are going to have a longer summer holiday because of the fact that term ended early due to Dumbledore's death. We will spend the summer with them. I think book 7 will pick up right where HBP left off. The trio will spend a week or two at the Dursleys - learn Petunia's big secret - and then go to the Burrow for the wedding. At some point during this, something will happen to remind Harry of Regulus Black and the connection will be made to R.A.B. and the locket at Grimmauld Place. Harry will receive things (or at least something) from Dumbledore that will help him on his quest. They will go to Godric's Hollow and important information will be learned there - perhaps Harry will use the pensieve and look at his own memory of the night his parents died. They will locate the locket and either verify that Regulus destroyed it or destroy it themselves. They will then find the cup - with help from Dumbledore - and destroy it. They will then discover that the unknown Horcrux is at Hogwarts and Harry will decide to return to school because they can't go after Nagini until all of the other Horcruxes have been destroyed.

They will return to school - probably around Chapter 11 or 12 like in OOTP - hear the Sorting Hat's new song and learn something important from that - meet the new DADA teacher and possibly learn something from them as well. They will use the library at Hogwarts to research the founders (we're supposed to learn more about them as well) and try to ascertain what the unknown item could be. It will take them the majority of the school year to figure out what it is and where it is - either in the Room of Requirement or the chamber - they'll find it and destroy it around exam time. Then they will go after Nagini and the final battle will begin.

JKR's comments indicate the opposite. There will be no more Quidditch, which indicates no more school. She stated in the interview that the plot for the next book is Horcrux hunting, which means that Harry would not return to Hogwarts unless he had reason, and he'll have to be elsewhere to fiure out that.

She did say that there would be no Quidditch. That does not necessarily mean they won't return to school. I believe Hogwarts will be re-opened but there will be major restrictions in place - similar to COS where all extracurricular activities were cancelled, including Quidditch. There will be no Quidditch but they will return to school.

She also said in that interview that Harry thinks he knows what he has to do. He thinks that he has to drop out of school and concentrate on finding the Horcruxes. That tells me that Harry is wrong in his thinking - what he thinks he has to do will end up not being the case and he will end up returning to school.

Jo has said many times that there will be seven books - one book for each year that Harry attends Hogwarts, indicating that he will be in school for the seventh book - also each book is subtitled - Year One, Year Two, etc...

Jo said that there will be a new DADA teacher - there is no need to introduce a new teacher if Harry is not going back to school.

She said something about the Sorting Hat having another song and giving more information through that song. Everything is from Harry's point of view - in order for there to be a new Sorting Hat song, Harry must be there to hear it.

There are a lot of other comments like this but there is another thread that addresses that specifically. All indications are that the trio will return to school in spite of Harry being determined not to at the end of HBP. He thinks that is what he has to do but he is wrong.

We know none of these things. We know that Diary was made while he was in school, but we do not know when Voldemort made it a Horcrux. It did not begin that way. We know that he turned the Ring into a Horcrux between 6th year and the time that he murdered Hepzibah: it was gone, and we see the Horcrux damage.

Actually, we do know. As I said above, Dumbledore explained to Harry that he began to suspect that Voldemort had made a Horcrux because of Harry's description of how the diary worked. If the diary had just contained a record of Riddle's memory, it would not have controlled Ginny - she would not have been possessed. Riddle made the diary into a Horcrux and then added his memory to it with the intention of it being used that way. The fact that he did so - treated that Horcrux rather carelessly in a plan that was likely to end up with the diary being destroyed - suggested to Dumbledore that there was more than one Horcrux.

Riddle was not wearing the ring when he came out the diary. He stopped wearing the ring after he made it into a Horcrux - he hid it at the Gaunt house. We know the diary was made into a Horcrux while Riddle was in school and Slughorn's memory suggests that Riddle acquired the ring and began asking about Horcruxes prior to learning how to open the chamber. It is a logical deduction that the Ring was made into a Horcrux first - after he learned about them from Slughorn - and then the diary after he framed Hagrid and came up with a plan to finish Slytherin's work through someone else at a later date - when he was no longer in school and wouldn't be suspected.

It is entirely feasible that he made a third Horcrux in his seventh year. He had committed enough murders to do so. His physical appearance does not begin to greatly change until after he delves so deep in the Dark Arts - during those years when he had disappeared. Even after making five Horcruxes, his appearance was nowhere near as degraded as he appeared in GOF after his rebirth. Dumbledore's comments suggest that it is the combination of the two things that degrades his appearance to such an extent.

However, if he did make the Ring a Horcrux while at Hogwarts, then we know that a Horcrux that he made at Hogwarts did not have to be hidden there. This invalidates the premise that a Horcrux made at Hogwarts had to remain there.

That was actually my point, as I stated above. I don't believe that Voldemort wanted any of his Horcruxes to be hidden at Hogwarts - particularly with Dumbledore there. That would be too risky. I think the third Horcrux was left there out of necessity and he is desperate to get it out of there before it is discovered.

Again, and even if it were true, NOTHING that Ginny could do could help Harry here. If Dumbledore could not find it, then how could Ginny (or Hermione or Ron)? Even knowing what it might be does not help: that provides them with no indication of where it might be.

As I stated above, Ginny was in communication with Tom Riddle for a year - close communication in which he was trying to gain her trust. It is entirely feasible that he told her something or showed her something that, by itself, does not appear to be significant. Ginny has an advantage over Dumbledore in that regard.

Just to clarify, I do not think that Ginny is going to be a major player in the search for the Horcruxes. I think she likely has a piece of information that will help them locate the one hidden at Hogwarts. Other than that, I really don't see her participating in this part of the adventure. Ginny's major contribution will occur during the final battle.

We know that Harry is not returning as a student. He is going Horcrux hunting. EVEN if he did decide that there was one at Hogwarts, he is not going to start by looking there. He might well revisit Hogwarts (I'll be surprised if he does not), but he cannot track down the localities from Hogwarts. It is too restricting and there simply is not much information about Voldemort there. (Dumbledore's possessions will be either with Aberforth at Hogsmeade, where Harry can visit only 3-4 times a year), or at Grimmauld Place, where Harry cannot visit.)

See above. Jo has made many comments that indicate the trio will return to Hogwarts as students in book 7 and I presented a feasible way for that to occur.

Also, Ginny cannot help with research: Harry will NOT tell her what he is doing. Besides, what could she research? The libraries do not have in-depth biographies of Voldemort. Dumbledore himself was unable to discover any relics of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor; besides where the unidentified Horcrux is is the big question: it will be obvious once they find it (just as the Ring was, the locket would have been, and the cup will be).

At the end of HBP, I agree. However, that could very well change. After they locate the locket and the cup, other things will have occurred. Hermione will likely have talked to Harry regarding his decision to break up with Ginny and leave her behind. Lupin may talk to Harry as well - there is a parallel in Harry's decision and Lupin's decision not to date Tonks in HBP. Ron and Hermione will become a couple. Harry's initial plan had already been altered at the end of HBP - he intended to break up with Ginny and leave Ron and Hermionie behind as well. His intention was to go on alone. Ron and Hermione squashed that like a bug and told him they were going with him no matter what. His resolve in breaking up with Ginny was already waivering.

Then you have to consider Ginny's personality. She is not going to cause a major scene at the funeral but she's not finished. She has more to say - Harry walked away before she could say it. Harry doesn't necessarily have to tell her about the Horcruxes. She could walk up behind them and overhear them talking about it by accident.

Also, they don't have to tell Ginny about the Horcruxes in order for her to help. They could simply tell her they need to know more information about the founders - or that they are researching suspicious events that took place between the years that Voldemort attended school at Hogwarts and the time that the first war began.

But I think it is more likely that Ginny will probably just say something in passing about what happened to her and it will end up being something significant.

The more plausible scenario is that, after using RAB's possessions to find the 4th Horcrux, he'll visit Aberforth in Hogsmeade. He then will be the background Order member that stands forward. Harry will see Ginny then, and that escapade will lead Harry to the final hidden Horcrux. (I am betting on a non-English location hre.)

All of that can happen during the summer while they are searching for the cup.

If the memories were those of the 16 year old Riddle, then he could not have done so. He had not yet made any Horcruxes when he wrote the Diary: he did not learn that they could actually be made for another year! Those memories predate his hiding of the Horcruxes.

Not according to my theory. I think he made the ring first and hid it prior to opening the chamber and made the diary second. Riddle's memory could very likely have told Ginny about hiding places - such as the Room of Requirement. It is also possible that he knew of the tiara at that time but was unable to acquire it until his seventh year. It doesn't have to be a major piece of information. Just something that ties it all together for Harry.

The Vanishing cabinet came up a few times, in part to establish its properties. This is just Chekov's Gun in reverse. However, nothing in the Room of Requirement was given any distinguishing characters or really has appeared. We'll see Hufflepuffs Cup and something we've almost certainly never seen before, hidden away someplace far away.

No distinguishing properties were given about the Vanishing Cabinets at all. We didn't even know that both cabinets were Vanishing Cabinets until HBP. We were told about the first - only that it was valuable and that it was broken. It's companion was not described at all. The locket was given no distinguishing characteristics - just a heavy locket that they couldn't open. There is no reason for Jo to change that pattern at this point.

Again, given that Dumbledore could not discover artifacts of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindors (save the sword, which Dumbledore knew as not a Horcrux), it would be a plot hole if Ginny (or Hermione or Ron) somehow found something at Hogwarts. Indeed, if we do see some broach with an Eagle on it after Harry et al. defuse a bunch of traps somewhere in Albania, we'll know what it is. The Chekovian requirements are met: it will clearly be a Founder's Relic, protected as we expect a Horcrux to be protected.

Just because Dumbledore had not located them does not mean they do not exist - even Dumbledore said that. It would not be a plot hole for the trio to discover something he missed or hadn't gotten around to yet. He was in the process of searching - he hadn't completed the search.

I seriously doubt that Jo is going to be so obvious as to mention the object had an eagle on it. I think the object has already been seen but overlooked - the tiara being most likely. It may have an eagle on it somewhere but not necessarily. Harry was in a hurry and wasn't paying that much attention at the time.

If there is a Horcrux hidden in Albania, my guess would be Hufflepuff's cup.

Yup. If Harry is traveling around (as JKR seems to indicate), and Hogwarts is very much in the background (again indicated by JKR), then this will affect things. Of course, the bigger question to me is, will Ginny be at Hogwarts? Will it reopen? Her parents probably would send her back: but, then, they might decide against it.

As I stated above, Jo has made many comments that indicate that Hogwarts will not be in the background but be very prominent in book 7 as it has been in all the books. It really doesn't make sense to do it any other way. Hogwarts has been the central location in all the books - it is almost a character of the story by itself.

However, as there is no reason to think that Voldemort has another Horcrux at Hogwarts, I have to completely disagree there. Also, it would be a plot-hole for Ginny to learn something that Dumbledore could not: what they need is information about places that were important to Voldemort. (Where he actually learned to make a Horcrux would be up there: if the hypothesis that he learned from Grindelwald, the foremost Dark Wizard of the day, is correct, then it would be somewhere in Europe; oh, and we are supposed to see Krum!)

I think that is the only logical choice. Hogwarts has been central to the books. I honestly can't imagine that one of the Horcruxes is not hidden there. That would be a major plot hole for me.

As I stated above, I am not saying that any of them know something that Dumbledore did not but they could feasibly discover something that he missed or had not gotten around to yet. Ginny could simply know that Tom knew about the Room of Requirement and knew it had been used as a hiding place - that could bring Harry to looking through that room. It could also be something that she heard or saw while she was in the chamber before she lost consciousness. Dumbledore would have no way of knowing anything like that.

As for Krum, the trio could see him on their travels but it is just as likely that he could return to England. It could happen either way. He could be invited to the wedding - Fleur could invite him or maybe Charlie has met him and will invite him or even Hermione could invite him to see if he could help them. It could also be a random occurence like the way we saw Lockhart again. Bulgaria's Quidditch team could be in England for a game and they pass him on the street.

I do agree with you that Ginny will be important. I expect that Harry will attempt to sacrifice himself in the end: it is the only way he really can hope to beat Voldemort, who far outclasses him magically. (Going back to Hogwarts would not help: even fully trained Aurors are no match for Voldemort, and they know more than is taught at Hogwarts.) I would not be surprised if Ginny is what pulls him back.

Actually, I think Harry is a match for Voldemort. We are also supposed to learn more about the bond between them. What other powers did he transfer to Harry when he tried to kill him? Without his Horcruxes, Voldemort is just another wizard. He is very powerful but that doesn't mean that Harry won't be able to defeat him. Jo has said that Harry is very powerful as well - more than even he realizes.

However, JKR cannot have Ginny doing things that Dumbledore himself was unable to do. She also cannot just send Harry back to school and have everythign fall into his lap by good luck.

That is not what I said at all. It is very feasible for Ginny to know something that Dumbledore didn't. Dumbledore couldn't have known if Riddle knew about the Room of Requirement. He was looking into Voldemort's past specifically for that reason - he did not know. Ginny communicated with Riddle through the diary for a year. That is not far-fetched. He could have told her something that will turn out to be significant.

And I don't think anything is going to fall into Harry's lap. The Horcrux at Hogwarts will likely be the most difficult for him to find because he won't know where to look. I think it will take them the entire school year to find it - following the pattern of the previous books.

I think book 7 is going to follow the exact same pattern as the previous books - most significantly GOF and OOTP. There will be a lot of activity during the summer, in which they will find the locket and the cup. They will return to school around chapter 11 or 12 and the remainder of the adventure will occur at Hogwarts - as it always has. I honestly can't see it happening any other way.

Jo has established a clear pattern throughout the series. Each book follows this pattern with only minor differences here and there. I think the Lexicon had a section regarding this where the layout of HBP was predictedbased on this pattern and they pretty much got it dead on. There were a few minor differences but it followed the pattern. I see no reason to assume that book 7 will not follow the same pattern.

As I said above, there is a thread on here somewhere regarding this. Whoever started it posted all of these quotes from Jo regarding book 7 and Hogwarts was central - each and every one of them indicated that the trio will return to school and Hogwarts will continue to be the central location of the series. If I can find it, I will post the link for you. I think Jo made it very clear that they will return to school - what really drove that point home for me was her saying that Harry thinks he knows what he has to do, indicating that he is wrong. Just because there will be no Quidditch does not mean they won't return to school. Quidditch was cancelled in COS while they were at school and, other than the World Cup, there was no Quidditch in GOF either.

To everyone - I'm sorry this is so long but I do feel it applies to the discussion regarding Harry and Ginny and what role she will play in book 7.

Okay the previous post is way to big to quote so I'm not even going to try.

All I can say is that it is true Voldemort has pushed the limits of dark magic, but as Dumbledore said Voldemort never considered the power of love, Voldemort does not understand love as we do, he just believes it is a weakness to drag you down. But since he does not understand love that gives Harry an edge. So it is my guess that Ginny will indeed play an important role.

Trying to make predictions are one of the things that make these books so much fun. Before the last book comes out I want to make some kind of list, and see how many I can get right. If we look at all the predictions various people make on the web, there might be only 10% that turn out right. I hope I bat better than that, but who knows.

I actually posted that here and at another newsgroup prior to the release of HBP. Unfortunately, the results from this site were lost: the thread was locked a week before the book came out at my request, and then all of the locked threads were deleted while the site was down. (I didn't want any leaked copies leading to amazingly good predictions...)

However, the results are preserved at another site. We had questions ranging from the trivial (who is McClaggan? nobody got that right!), who will die (a lot of people predicted Dumbledore), who will Harry snog (at this site, nearly a quarter of the people said Hermione when I scanned through; however, almost nobody over the age of 18 said that; at the other site, NOBODY thought it was Hermione, with almost everyone picking Ginny and a few of us idiots picking Luna!), to "how did Voldemort survive?" (I don't remember what people wrote here; there, most of us that the soul was involved, but we differed on whether it was deliberate or accidental, and none of us hit upon multiple pieces of soul), to "who was the Half-blood Prince? (one person got it right on the other site: and his explanation was "Well, nobody else has picked Snape, so I will!.

None of us did spectacularly well, as the trivial questions just had too many possible answers. People did anticipate the story pretty well (i.e., being about general choices rather than particular type of choice). Unfortunately, I did not get a chance read what people posted here before they eliminated it (and too many people did not understand the difference between story and plot: I do remember that a lot of peoples' predictions were plot synopses rather than, say, "Death and Immortality," which is what Lord of the Rings was about according to Tolkien.)


I forgot to post this stuff earlier!
OK, I see what why you might interpret it that way. But I see it differently; these are all very vague connections. Many people see Ron's sacrifice in the chess game as foreshadowing Ron's death. For myself, I don't think it foreshadows anybody's death. And I wouldn't consider Voldemort as a reliable source for foreshadowing. Voldemort is just saying what he hopes will happen.

Foreshadowing does not require reliable prediction. In fact, it is not foreshadowing if it is prediction. Foreshadowing is ironic: it has to appear to mean one thing at the time, but later be recognized as accidentally predicting what happens.

For example, in OotP, Sirius make the comment that eventually the ministry would realize that Voldemort was back and that they'd be apologizing: but that he did not think he'd be accepting their apology. This is when I realized that Sirius was the one who would die: ironically, he did not accept their apologies because he was no longer there to accept them. However, Sirius meant something very different: that he wasn't forgiving them.

Similarly, Ron on the chessboard cannot foreshadow Ron's death unless Ron becomes the leader. Now, some people have suggested that it foreshadowed Dumbledore's death, and that might be: however, Dumbledore was not directing pieces the way that Harry soon is to be.

Another example is Dumbledore's line in the very first chapter: scars can be useful things. He then jokes about having a map of the Tube on his knee. We know that the bond between Harry & Voldemort goes to the heart of boook VII, and we know that the scar is linked to/part of/the source of that bond. Dumbledore is foreshadowing something here: he obviously had no idea what the scar was at that time, and his line is close to old lines about scars teaching us wisdom, etc.


Lupin's line could be referring to all kinds of things - for example, Harry's eyes being like his mothers; JKR has clearly indicated that Harry's eyes being like his mothers is very important, and Lupin could be foreshadowing the same thing.

The comments about Harry's eyes are not foreshadowing: they are a statement of a fact (that Harry inherited his mother's eyes). There is no irony involved, as the lines do not (in any obvious way) appear to mean one thing yet will later appear to mean another. Second, that also is in the book, and what the movie gave us was (according to JKR) not in the book, and it was something about which the moviemakers had no way of knowing at that time. The "Lily's Eyes" bit has been known since PSS!

The foreshadowing has to be something that made sense in a some context at that time, and then mean something different that what it will later appear to mean. Lupin was NOT predicting that Harry would go out a kill himself. However, if he does, and if his final thoughts dwell on his parents, then Lupin will have accidentally predicted the ending even though he was saying something quite different.


Ginny is prominent foreshadowings and potential foreshadowings. Harry falling for Ginny was heavily foreshadowed in OotP, where Ginny becomes an apparent "rival" with Cho Chang: not for Harry's affections, but over trivial things like naming the DA and Quidditch. In all cases, Ginny beats Cho: and, in the end, Ginny succeeds where Cho failed with Harry.


Ginny's introduction to the series is fraught with foreshadowing. The image of her chasing Harry's train leads to Ginny chasing Harry in another way; in both cases, she fails to catch up, but is not put off by that. This foreshadows Ginny chasing after the trio on the quest: the trio leaves to someplace Ginny is not allowed to go, but Ginny pursues, and (eventually) catches up. (My dark thought is that Harry's final thoughts will replay this scene!)

Well, does not mean too much: she could not state at the time that the 7th book would depart from this! Remember, the stories are not about Hogwarts: it is just a setting, and one that is irrelevant no. The plot and story have moved away from Hogwarts, now.
Unless Voldemort chooses to move it back to Hogwarts? He wanted the DA position, and he wanted into Hogwarts, pretty badly. Could it be that all the remaining Horcruxes (or a majority of them, at least?) are already hidden somewhere in/around Hogwarts?

With Dumbledore gone, the school is vastly more vulnerable than it has ever been. Voldemort wanted in, for some reason. What's to stop him now?

I just can't see how Rowling is going to have Harry, Ron and Hermione setting off to retrieve Horcruxes from various locations around the globe, with no hints or clues as to where to even begin, packed all into one final book. For all we know, Voldemort has hidden one in some anti-chamber, deep in an Egyptian pyramid...or in some heavily-chained chest buried in a deep, dark cave at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea...I mean, honestly, how on earth is Harry going to find them all?

It'd be much easier if they're already in a central location - Hogwarts - ripe for the pickin'. Voldemort will take the school in order to keep them safe; Ginny will be hostage with the other students; Harry will have to return to rescue her, along with the rest of the Wizarding World. Could be? :)

I'm not disagreeing that there were other reasons that he wanted to be at Hogwarts. What I'm saying is that Voldemort did not want any of his Horcruxes hidden at Hogwarts. He was forced to leave one there while at school and is desperate to get it out of there.

The canon contradicts this. We know that Voldemort wants Horcruxes in places that are important to him, and Hogwarts is important to him. We also know that he later tried to sneak a Horcrux into Hogwarts.


I disagree. I think that Riddle started on his Horcruxes before he figured out how to open the Chamber - possibly simultaneously but I doubt it.

We know this to be false. Here is the timeline of Voldemort's life (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/timeline_voldemort.html), which is taken from the canon. Voldemort opened the Chamber in his fifth year, a year before the encounter with Slughorn. (The years are given in the books, by the way.) He acquired the ring that following summer.

Also, remember that Slughorn did not teach Voldemort how to make Horcruxes; Slughorn only confirmed that Horcruxes were real. We know that Voldemort could not learn this at Hogwarts, and we know that he had not learned it from the Chamber, as he was still asking about Horcruxes after he opened the Chamber. This means that he had to get the knowledge elsewhere. After he turned 17 (mid-6th year), he was free to apparate. This makes the summer between his 6th and 7th years as the earliest time that he could have freely traveled to learn the Horcrux secret.


Oh, and just to be clear, I am of the opinion that Voldemort's physical change was brought about by his practices of the Dark Arts as well as making the Horcruxes. Dumbledore's statements support that. Anyway, back to the order of events.

The canon refutes this (HBP Amer. edition pg. 502):

Dumbledore: "Lord Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years, and the transformation he has undergone seemed to me to be only explicable if his soul was mutilated by the realms of what we might call 'usual evil'..."

Voldemort has always been a sadistic sociopath with no need for friends or love, and an ego the size of a small planet. However, he physically has transformed extensively. Moreover, the amount of physical deformation correlates to the minimum number of Horcruxes that we know Voldemort had (red eyes at at least one; melted visage, permanently blood shot eye at three; snake-like visage with red-eyes at five).

Now, you might say that Dumbledore offers a contradictory explanation in CoS: but that was before Dumbledore had worked out that Voldemort had multiple horcruxes.

There also is additional corroborative evidence. None of the Death Eaters have undergone any of the transformations that Voldemort has, yet they were steeped deely in the dark arts, and they knew about things that Voldemort was doing (supposedly) to achieve immortality. (We now know that these were smoke screens for his Horcruxes.) Indeed, this might be part of how Regulus learned the secret, if he somehow stumbled upon the fact that Horcruxes alter the person.


At some point during this time, he learns of Horcruxes. When he returns to school, he charms Slughorn into telling him about them - he is wearing the ring at that point. Somehow, he learns how to make one.

The "somehow" is quite important. It was not at Hogwarts. The best idea is that he learned from Grindelwald. JKR has refused to answer questions regarding Grindelwald's potential importance.

This will be relevant because where Voldemort learned probably represents a very important place to him. Harry might glean this through Dumbledore's memories.

This is where Ginny and magic come into play, and also something about the timing of events. Grindelwald was in Europe, although JKR won't tell us whether he was involved with the Nazis. So, here we leave the firm ground of canon facts and enter some speculation. Given that Voldemort leaves Horcruxes at places important to him, and given that where he learned to make Horcruxes would be an important place, this unknown area would be a likely candidate for a Horcrux.

Where exactly is this? Well, one person who might "remember" is Dumbledore, who defeated Grindelwald in the first place. Did Grindelwald have a Horcrux? We don't know, but it actually is not that important. Dumbledore's memories could be what leads Harry to this place. (Somewhere in Albania, perhaps?) Harry will procure the memories at or around Hogwarts (Aberforth actually is at Hogsmeade).

How does this relate to Harry & Ginny? Well, this will be the time for Ginny to make her choice. Of course, to merit Harry AND to be consistent with the story, Ginny has to make the right and hard choice to follow Harry.

This puts some time constraints on things: namely, Ginny had better know how to apparate by now. So, this would push things off till after Christmas.

Thus, I would look for Harry to spend August - January or so finding the locket, and then finding Horcrux #4. The hunt for Horcrux #5 will lead him back to where Ginny can then choose to follow him.


Now, according to Dumbledore in HBP, the diary did not work as a normal magical diary would. If Riddle had just used it to store his memory, it would not have allowed him to possess someone. The person writing in the diary would just write in it and receive responses from Riddle based on his memory up to that point. In order for the diary to work the way Riddle intended, it had to contain a piece of his soul. That is my understanding of it based on Dumbledore's explanation.

This is correct, but you have the sequence backwards. Voldemort first made it a Diary. Later, he turned it into a Horcrux. Harry asks why, because it was not special. Dumbledore corrects him: to Voldemort, his old Diary was "of stupendous importance" because it proved he was Slytherin's Heir. Dumbledore clearly thought that the book was first a magical diary, then later a Horcrux.


He now has two Horcruxes - one of which could possibly be destroyed when he enacts his plan to re-open the chamber. He hides the ring at the Gaunt house and protects it with enchantments. He keeps the diary with him. This is the timeline of events as indicated by canon - what has been explained thus far.

The canon gives no indication that either the Ring or the Diary was a Horcrux before Voldemort left Hogwarts. Because the canon attributes Voldemort's transformation to Horcruxes, it makes the idea that Voldemort had two Horcruxes when he killed Smith unlikely (given how much damage only 5 caused).


Sometime, during his final year at Hogwarts, he learns of the existence of the tiara and that it once belonged to Rowena Ravenclaw - for debating purposes I'm going to say that one of the students or teachers was a descendent of Ravenclaw and had the tiara - possibly the student was showing it off or bragging about it - or, if it was a teacher, answered questions about it and where it came from...... To his chagrin, the theft is discovered. He cannot risk being caught with the tiara in his possession.

The canon contradicts this. (You do seem to think that Dumbledore's ideas are always erroneous!) First, Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort got the idea for using founder's artifacts in particular after finding two with Smith. That was after Voldemort left Hogwarts. Second, Dumbledore cannot determine whether Voldemort acquired anything of Ravenclaw's. However, your scenario requires that the theft of the Ravenclaw relic be discovered: how could Dumbledore not learn about this? How could he avoid putting 2+2 together? Conversely, if Dumbledore did not learn, then why did Voldemort fear getting caught? This is an inherent contradiction.

Also, it is pure fan-fiction. Nothing in the canon suggests that the tiara is linked to Ravenclaw, or that any of these people existed.



A lot of that is pure speculation but, based on Dumbledore's comments, Riddle's comments in COS, and things that Jo has said, I think that is the most likely order of events.

I think that almost none of these events even happened. You cannot cite Dumbledore's comments to support you: your arguments require that Dumbledore be wrong most of the time. JKR's comments do not support you: she has said that VII is about tracking down the Horcruxes and Voldemort. Riddles' comments in CoS are too general: they are consistent with numerous scenarios.



I agree with you there but there is no reason to assume that she won't help again in some way.

But, Meesha, the huge problem is that none of this speculation has anything to do with the story. It is all highly contrived plot designed to keep Harry at Hogwarts. Harry Potter is not about Hogwarts: it is about [b]choices. Harry, Ron and Hermione made their big choice at the end of HBP: they are taking the hard road to destroy the Horcruxes and Voldemort.

If JKR had them flip-flop on this, then all of the thematic impact of the last book would be dissolved at once. It would turn Harry Potter into just a meaningless series of events: a soap-opera plot with no story at all. Indeed, if they do not stick to it, then the story is seriously compromised, if not ruined. JKR stated that Dumbledore's closing lines in GoF summarized the rest of the story: the choice between what is right and what is easy. Returning to Hogwarts would be the easy cop-out. Moreover, what possible meaning would the final chapter have anymore?

Ginny now needs to make a comparable choice. It has to be a choice fraught with risks (e.g., danger to self, but also violating rules), and it has to be motivated by the right reasons (i.e., genuine feelings for Harry and sense of duty, not a childish desire for adventure).

A plot with all of the Horcruxes conveniently waiting for Harry at Hogwarts, and with no difficult choices that other people will question will not serve this story at all.



It'd be much easier if they're already in a central location - Hogwarts - ripe for the pickin'. Voldemort will take the school in order to keep them safe; Ginny will be hostage with the other students; Harry will have to return to rescue her, along with the rest of the Wizarding World. Could be?

That would completely undermine the story. Where would Ginny's choices be? Remember, the story focuses on people's choices: JKR cannot change the over-arching theme in the final book! (She can mess with the plot, but the point of a story is to tell a story, not a sequence of events.)

Finally, from the plot-perspective, having all the Horcruxes at Hogwarts would be what is called an idiot-plot: i.e., one where things are solved only by having a generally intelligent person do something stupid.


Again, the resolution of Harry & Ginny needs to revolve around choices that both of them make. They need to be difficult choices, fraught with potentially nasty ramifications. JKR already has told us that this is the story. A hostage Ginny serves no purpose: this reduces her charcter to just the trophy princess, and makes Ginny no better than what her detractors pretend to see.


To repeat again, people have to consider the story when hypothesizing about plots. When suggesting that something might happen or that someone might do something, stop and ask: how does this fit into the story? What is the "right" choice here? What is the "easy" choice? What would this character do given the development to date?

That would completely undermine the story. Where would Ginny's choices be? Remember, the story focuses on people's choices: JKR cannot change the over-arching theme in the final book! (She can mess with the plot, but the point of a story is to tell a story, not a sequence of events.)
Not be be argumentive - - but this is not Ginny's story. She may have already made the only "choice" that Rowling wanted her to make, when she peacefully chose to let Harry break up with her and go play the hero. Not an easy choice for Ginny...but in the end, it may have been the right one. Only Book 7 will tell.

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm in agreement that Harry's death would in a very significant way make Lilly's sacrifice in vain. She surely did not intend her sacrifice in order for her son to vanquis Voldemort. She intended her sacrifice so that her son could have a happy life. So far he's had 11 years with the Dursely's, and 5 years of danger from Voldemort.

I'm puzzled as to where people see foreshadowing of Harry's death. I've seen several people say that, but no comments as to why they say that.
There was a genious editorial on that topic on MuggleNet, but I can't find it now. There was something about ** teaching Harry that deth is an adventure, about centaurs knowing the future and wishing Harry it won't happen, and Firenze saving Harry in the forest was changing the course of the future. Mars was bright just above Harry, and people Harry loves are dying. All he respects sacrificed themselfes and he's alone now. He keeps risking his life for others and he'll eventually do it again and die. The editorial always makes me cry, it ends with Harry being too wounded or exhausted to recover and Dumbledore tells him it's over, everything's fine now, Harry can let go, and join their loved ones. Though after **'s death it's impossible this way, Harry dying is still very possible scenario.

And I'm sure there are threads about Harry's death in book 7.

I think that Harry and Ginny will have a great relationship. It takes a lot of heart to do what Harry did and hide Ginny from Voldemort. I think that Harry and Ginny will marry near the end of Book Seven.

There is a branch of stories known as "tragedies." These actually were very common in children's stories until the last century or so.


That's certainly true, but while there are certainly elements of tragedy present, I don't think the Harry Potter series is being written as a tragedy. JRK is on record discussing the series in the context of the mythic hero. In either case, of course, you can't absolutely prove or disprove any possibilities, but personally I don't think that the series is going to end as a huge tragedy.

.......
...... Now, he might have made the Ring a Horcrux while a student: we do not know for sure when he learned how to make Horcruxes. We can be almost certain that it was a Horcrux when he killed Hepzibah Smith.

Hogwarts was very much safeguarded against Voldemort, and he could not return to search for Horcruxes, forcing him to adopt the subterfuge of wanting to return as a teacher. Given this, we can rule out the idea that he found a way after he left to sneak in and hide a new Horcrux. (Indeed, if he had, then why didn't he sneak in again and remove it to someplace safer?)


Your use of logic is very good. I would interpret some of the evidence somewhat differently and arrive at a different conclusion. At this point, I'll just make three relatively minor points:
(1) The diary was created when Tom Riddle was 16; therefore, he must have known how to make a Horcrux at that time.
(2) If Tom Riddle knew how to make Horcruxes at age 16, it is possible that he could have made another one before he left. Since the diary was never intended as a guaranteed permanent Horcrux, I think it's possible Riddle left one in Hogwarts as his own permanent mark on the school.
(3) Given what we know about the likely nature of the other Horcruxes, I don't think Riddle could have left more than one Horcrux stored in Hogwarts, since he obtained the other objects at a later time; and, as you say, Hogwarts was heavily guarded, and VM couldn't sneak a horcrux in, even if he wanted to, which seems unlikely.
(4) If Mundungus has stolen the locket from Grimaud place, it would be very possible for it to be sold to someone who carries it into Hogwarts, thinking it to be just a piece of jewelry.

Would any of the other Horcrux force Harry and Ginny together, or for Harry to save Ginny again? I really want to see them togther, and it makes Harry very happy to be with Ginny as well.

I'm not sure waht to expect in regards to Harry going back to Hogwarts. I think the finale showdown will be at Hogwarts. I think there is a Horcrux at Hogwarts and that it may be the last one found. Think of how Dumbledore said how attached Voldemort was to the school (chapter 20, page 431 Scholastic edition). I think it might also be in **'s office. On page 446 (last page of chapter 20) Harry thinks that he saw Voldemort's hand twitch and we never get a real answer on why Voldemort came back then. I think the phantom twitch might be indicative of a well-done messing with meory and the twitch indicates something more happened, but it's not the poor job Slughorn did of modifying his pensive scene.

I'm not sure what this really means for H&G. I do think we are quite likely to get psuedo-repeat of the Tonks/Lupin thing, perhaps with Harry doing poorly because of his emotional state. And I think Ginny will either be present at the final battle or will be the last to leave Harry.

Alas, don't confuse bashing and shipping with the opinion that Harry and Ginny will not end up together in the future. True, we got to talking about why it mattered (some felt they were perfect for one another and others disagreed), but the point of the thread "where to from here" to me, can be answered in two words: NO WHERE.

I think JKR will realize she has not given Ginny a character befitting Harry and so, in order not to go back on her original ideology 'Ginny is perfect for Harry', she will just get rid of Ginny. I see some type of sacrificial end for the girl while Harry is still in love with her. That will rid us of Ginny and at the same time allow Harry extra motivation to vanquish voldemort. Remember, he doesn't really need motivation. Dumbledore asked him if there were no phrophecy would he still want to go after Voldemort and he said yes. So if the sacrificial end for Hermione doesn't happen, then I think JKR will just use the idea that Ginny is young and still a bit flighty and thus no longer will be in love with Harry. Harry will be upset, but the death of Voldemort and the safety (temporary) of the Wiz world will make him very happy. I see a last scene in which Harry has no one, but happily looks around at Ron and Hermione and thinks, 'wow, finally we can really just hang out and be friends'. Unless the book spans many years, he'll still be young and there will be time for many romances in his future. So I still say, from here, Harry and Ginny go to about 1.5 base and then call it quits - making book 7 a little more enjoyable.

First of all, JKR won't be "realizing" anything because she had everything planned out 15 years ago when she came up with the story. And Harry has enough motivation to vanquish Voldemort without having the love of his life sacrificing herself for him because of the deaths of his protectors, who have given him the required amount of drive and then some more to fulfill his destiny. Remember, there's a reason why these deaths had occurred and one of the reasons is that at the end of the day, Harry will stand alone when he cnfronts Voldemort. Third, if you think that Ginny will get over Harry, you're sorely mistaken because she has been in love with him since she was 11 and had waited around for him ever since then. There is no reason why she would just get over him especially after knowing what it's like to be with him. Saying that she won't love Harry anymore makes no sense whatsoever. And the series isn't a romance novel where we'll get the intricate details of Harry's love life after he vanquished Voldemort. It will end on a light happy note where it will show that Harry is happy with his best friends and a family of his own, things which he had been craving for ever since he was a child, and the only family he knows are the Weasleys and Ginny can give him a permanent place in it.

Again, this is part of the problem with trying to discuss the story in pieces. Where Harry + Ginny go from here depends so much on where the plot takes Harry. Given the character that JKR has developed for Ginny, I'll be stunned if she does not get heavily involved. It seems to be in her nature to want to help (look at what she does for Harry and friends in OotP and HBP, and what she does to her enemies!), and JKR will want Harry's mate to be worthy of him.

That is very true. The Horcrux mission is an ideal opportunity to show us even more as to why Ginny is so perfect for Harry. She might not be directly involved in the quest because it I have a strong feeling that it will focus on the Trio, but she'll find some way to help them, possibly by communicating with them through Sirius' mirror.

Oh, and for the record (and just to brag), I was a proponent of the Accidental Horcrux hypothesis before we even knew what a Horcrux was! I wasted weeks on another newsgroup arguing whether Voldemort had accidentally left his sould in Harry or deliberately hidden it somewhere else.

Then HBP came along and turned our "or" into an either! We both doffed our caps to JKR and decided that, in fact, we both had been right AND wrong!

We all know how smart you are :D The Accidental Horcrux theory has a fair bit of logic and canon behind it, not to mention that it emphasizes a lot on Harry's ability to love and his willingness to sacrifice himself for those he loves (which will be the thing that will ultimately destroy the soulpiece but this is for another thread).

Indeed, my wife noted something immediately after we read HBP: Ginny never truly accepted Harry's breakup. Her translation (yup, "Mad things girls do so that boys can understand them") was: "I never really gave up on you before, and I'm sure as Hades not giving up on you now, you heroic idiot....."

Lol...your wife's translation is absolutely right :lol:

That's certainly true, but while there are certainly elements of tragedy present, I don't think the Harry Potter series is being written as a tragedy. JRK is on record discussing the series in the context of the mythic hero. In either case, of course, you can't absolutely prove or disprove any possibilities, but personally I don't think that the series is going to end as a huge tragedy.

Well, there is a "love conquers all" theme. Perhaps Ginny will pull Harry back from the brink.

Alternatively, JKR might go for the watered down "self-maiming" instead of self-sacrifice motif.


Your use of logic is very good.

It bloody well better be! (I teach basic logic every 2-3 years....)


(1) The diary was created when Tom Riddle was 16; therefore, he must have known how to make a Horcrux at that time.

Ah, but this does not follow! Riddle knew how to make a magical diary at 16. Magical diaries are not that uncommon: nobody was too surprised that Ginny found one. Only Dumbledore realized that this was more than normal magical diary, and more than just stored memories.

We have to keep the two aspects of the object separate: the magical Diary and the Horcrux. Voldemort could have turned the Diary into a Horcrux at any time after: 1) the Diary was made AND 2) he knew how to make Horcruxes. (These could have coincided, by the way). We know that Voldemort made the Diary during (or just after) his 5th year. He murdered his family and took the Percival Ring between his 5th and 6th years. He learned from Slughorn that Horcruxes were real and the general basis for how to make them in his 6th year.

Therefore, the earliest that Voldemort could have turned the book (or anything else) into a Horcrux was a year after he had turned the book into a Diary. It necessarily follows that the book was a Diary first, then a Horcrux later. Remember also that in Voldemort's mind (in Dumbledore's estimation), the fact that it was Voldemort's diary set it up with Founder's Relics. This works only if the object existed already.


(2) If Tom Riddle knew how to make Horcruxes at age 16, it is possible that he could have made another one before he left. Since the diary was never intended as a guaranteed permanent Horcrux, I think it's possible Riddle left one in Hogwarts as his own permanent mark on the school.

Ah, but we know that Voldemort did not know how to make a Horcrux at 16. At age 17, he was still asking Slughorn. Voldemort knew how to make magical diaries, but not Horcruxes.

The earliest that Voldemort could have learned seemingly would be the summer between the 6th and 7th years. As he was 17 and almost certainly passed his apparition test immediately, Voldemort could apparate anywhere in the world in search of this knowledge. As Dumbledore states, he could not possibly get it as Hogwarts. However, we do know that there was at least one powerful Dark Wizard around at this time.....


(3) Given what we know about the likely nature of the other Horcruxes, I don't think Riddle could have left more than one Horcrux stored in Hogwarts, since he obtained the other objects at a later time; and, as you say, Hogwarts was heavily guarded, and VM couldn't sneak a horcrux in, even if he wanted to, which seems unlikely.

Agreed!


(4) If Mundungus has stolen the locket from Grimaud place, it would be very possible for it to be sold to someone who carries it into Hogwarts, thinking it to be just a piece of jewelry.

True, but this would be a highly contrived scenario. Logic is not important here: now we have an arbitrary plot, and that is just bad literature.

Also, it is most probable that the locket still is in Kreacher's stash. Mundungus was selling things that were out in the open (silverware and goblets, the stuff that he was eying in OotP). He was still taking the easy pickings. Moreover, he was busted at that point, and probably was hard pressed to steal anymore. (Dung was sent to Azkaban not too much later.)

So, with the time alotted, it seems improbable that Dung could have gotten to Kreacher's stash. Also, given the way JKR writes, she would have given some tip-off: e.g., having Harry see the picture frames or some other objects that Kreacher had saved, or even the locket itself.


What does this mean? Well, it almost certainly means that Ginny will not be helping Harry by looking up "Rowena Ravenclaw's Fashion Accessories" at Hogwarts! The when/where of Voldemort learning to make Horcruxes might now become important: where he learned immortality almost certainly would rank up there with the place that he confirmed his heritage and the place where he first tortured people. (I'm guessing the Orphanage, where he first learned that he was a wizard, or the Riddle house, where he committed his first murders, for the 4th hidden Horcrux.) If (as so many speculate), Voldemort did learn this in Europe (perhaps from Grindelwald himself), then If Ginny is to follow Harry, then it will have to be after she herself can apparate (adding to the "choice" theme: she'll be breaking wizarding law by apparating under age!). This probably will apply even if the Horcrux is somewhere in England: Harry et al. won't be walking or flying brooms, after all.

From the perspective of plot, this would make sense: the first part of the school year would be spent by just the Trio tracking down the locket and then figuring out where else Voldemort hid a Horcrux from RAB's possessions. Ginny probably will be very much on Harry's mind (if nothing else, the hormone level from Ron & Hermione should guarantee that.....), but Ginny won't come into play until the middle third of the book.


Again (and to the mods!), the Horcrux stuff might look off-topic, but how Ginny gets involved in the plot and story of VII is going to depend heavily on where Harry's Horcrux hunting takes him. Moreover, it almost has to be part of the story: the reader should clearly see that an easy choice for Ginny (made all the easier by the fact that it would involved following rules and thus superficially "right") is to stay put, but that the correct thing for her to do is to set off after Harry.

Then she can bat-bogey Nagini into a belt.....

Geez, you guys make me feel so smallminded... :lol:

Um, i'm going to add my two cents, since everything possible has been said, but I don't think Ginny will help with the Horcruxes, but she will play a role in book seven. So basically, I paraphrased for some of you guys.

Wow. That was pointless. :rotfl:


Originally posted by Ania21:
There was a genious editorial on that topic on MuggleNet, but I can't find it now. There was something about ** teaching Harry that deth is an adventure, about centaurs knowing the future and wishing Harry it won't happen, and Firenze saving Harry in the forest was changing the course of the future. Mars was bright just above Harry, and people Harry loves are dying. All he respects sacrificed themselfes and he's alone now. He keeps risking his life for others and he'll eventually do it again and die. The editorial always makes me cry, it ends with Harry being too wounded or exhausted to recover and Dumbledore tells him it's over, everything's fine now, Harry can let go, and join their loved ones. Though after **'s death it's impossible this way, Harry dying is still very possible scenario.

And I'm sure there are threads about Harry's death in book 7.


I agree. I think there is a very strong chance of Harry dying in book seven.



Originally posted by scd:
Would any of the other Horcrux force Harry and Ginny together, or for Harry to save Ginny again? I really want to see them togther, and it makes Harry very happy to be with Ginny as well.

And THAT my friend, is the one reason that I can tolerate Ginny.

.....
From the perspective of plot, this would make sense: the first part of the school year would be spent by just the Trio tracking down the locket and then figuring out where else Voldemort hid a Horcrux from RAB's possessions. Ginny probably will be very much on Harry's mind (if nothing else, the hormone level from Ron & Hermione should guarantee that.....), but Ginny won't come into play until the middle third of the book.

I need to think a bit about some of your other comments. But I have an immediate problem with the common idea that Harry will be spending all of his time away from Hogwarts. JKR has had the structure of the series worked out for 10 years; she has said on a number of occasions that Harry will be at Hogwarts 7 years:
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"For the next five years Rowling worked on Book One and plotted out the whole series, which will consist of seven novels, one for each year Harry spends at Hogwarts.] Those five years really went into creating a whole world. I know far more than the reader will ever need to know about ridiculous details." Time Magazine article (September 1999)
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JKR: Exactly, there will be 7 books.
Oh, there is 7. All right!!
JKR: Yeah, one for each of his years at Hogwarts, yeah
J.K. Rowling interview transcript, (WBUR Radio), 12 October, 1999
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Is it true you're doing 7 books, one for each year that Harry will be at Hogwarts?
A. Yes, it is true. ---Online chat transcript, Scholastic.com, 3 February 2000
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A: I always conceived it as a seven-book series because I decided that it would take seven years from the ages of 11-17, inclusive, to train as a wizard, and each of the books would deal with a year of Harry's life at Hogwarts. Scholastic Interview, sometime after 4th book (July 2000)
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.....
Again (and to the mods!), the Horcrux stuff might look off-topic, but how Ginny gets involved in the plot and story of VII is going to depend heavily on where Harry's Horcrux hunting takes him. Moreover, it almost has to be part of the story: the reader should clearly see that an easy choice for Ginny (made all the easier by the fact that it would involved following rules and thus superficially "right") is to stay put, but that the correct thing for her to do is to set off after Harry.


I agree, making the right choice instead of the easy choice is a big theme of the series. I also agree, it's likely that Ginny will have to make a decision, perhaps more than one decision of that type. I'm not sure when and where.

.....
Then she can bat-bogey Nagini into a belt.....

My daughters and I love the bat-bogey hex.

Ah, but this does not follow! Riddle knew how to make a magical diary at 16. Magical diaries are not that uncommon: nobody was too surprised that Ginny found one. Only Dumbledore realized that this was more than normal magical diary, and more than just stored memories.

We have to keep the two aspects of the object separate: the magical Diary and the Horcrux. Voldemort could have turned the Diary into a Horcrux at any time after: 1) the Diary was made AND 2) he knew how to make Horcruxes. (These could have coincided, by the way). We know that Voldemort made the Diary during (or just after) his 5th year. He murdered his family and took the Percival Ring between his 5th and 6th years. He learned from Slughorn that Horcruxes were real and the general basis for how to make them in his 6th year.

Therefore, the earliest that Voldemort could have turned the book (or anything else) into a Horcrux was a year after he had turned the book into a Diary. It necessarily follows that the book was a Diary first, then a Horcrux later. Remember also that in Voldemort's mind (in Dumbledore's estimation), the fact that it was Voldemort's diary set it up with Founder's Relics. This works only if the object existed already.




Ah, but we know that Voldemort did not know how to make a Horcrux at 16. At age 17, he was still asking Slughorn. Voldemort knew how to make magical diaries, but not Horcruxes.

The earliest that Voldemort could have learned seemingly would be the summer between the 6th and 7th years. As he was 17 and almost certainly passed his apparition test immediately, Voldemort could apparate anywhere in the world in search of this knowledge. As Dumbledore states, he could not possibly get it as Hogwarts. However, we do know that there was at least one powerful Dark Wizard around at this time.....




I disagree with one point we do not know when exactly Riddle learned to make a horocrux. I was under the impression that he was asking Slughorn, not how to make one but if in fact you would be able to make more than one from a single soul (His desire to make 7 as opposed to one) That in itself would lead me to believe that he in fact knew the process for making a horocrux already. So it is possible he made one of his diary sucessfully and was thus encouraged to seek out ways to make more.

Also to stay on more on topic. I see Ginny Weasley having a large part in *** final book. If you examine her character when comparied to the other you find that she had skills I believe will be useful in defeating Voldemort.

Harry- (the essential character) I guess I would call him the 'will' He has the unrelenting desire to defeat Riddle, and his 'saving people thing' is the driving force behind what has to be done.

Hermione- Book smarts. She is the knowledge base for the trio. She is a skilled researcher with a clever mind and I have no doubt that when presented with the right resourses, that she could find a way to destroy a horocrux or any counter course they might need along the way.

Ron- strategy. He has proven his skills in this area (PS/SS chess match & Quidditch strategy) When he is interested in something he has the ability to analize the situation from all angles and visual possible outcomes.

Finally we come to Ginny: She has on more than one occasion proven herself a formidable witch. She also shows the same out side of the box thinking we see most vididly in the antics of Fred and George (OOTP contacting Sirius). She isn't afraid to bend or break the rules, or to find ways around them. She also doesn't fear Harry's temper and has no qualms standing up to him as Hermione and Ron sometimes do. Another aspect of her character is that she like Harry has a unique knowledge and understanding of the mind of Tom Riddle.

Ginny is also not the kind of person to be content to sit by as her brother, (her whole family really), one of her best friends, and the guy she has been crushing on (I won't say loves, even if I think it is appropriate, since it will likely cause some disagreement.) go off and risk their lives.


I don't think any of these things can be dismissed and all that in mind I see a place for Ginny in Harry's life and in the battle. You don't just forget your first love and even if it is only puppy love, it doesn't just vanish. If they live I see Harry ang Ginny together.

Do I think they will...Yes, but that could just be my hopes showing since we have no cannon to decided for certain one way or another.

The canon contradicts this. We know that Voldemort wants Horcruxes in places that are important to him, and Hogwarts is important to him. We also know that he later tried to sneak a Horcrux into Hogwarts.

But his purpose for sneaking the diary into Hogwarts was not to hide it there. Hogwarts is the last place he would willingly hide a Horcrux, IMO. The purpose of the diary was to control another student in re-opening the chamber. Canon indicates that Voldemort expected the diary to either be destroyed or returned to him with Slytherins work was completed.

We know this to be false. Here is the timeline of Voldemort's life (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/timeline_voldemort.html), which is taken from the canon. Voldemort opened the Chamber in his fifth year, a year before the encounter with Slughorn. (The years are given in the books, by the way.) He acquired the ring that following summer.

That timeline does not take into account the information we learned in HBP - it says so right at the top. I don't have my books with me to corroborate but I believe Riddle tells Harry in the chamber that it took him five years to figure out the location of the chamber and how to open it. He does not say when he started looking. Riddle is also described as being 16 when he comes out of the diary. Whether or not the chamber was opened in the fifth or sixth year is debatable without knowing Voldemort's birthday - if that has been revealed I missed it. Does anyone know?

Also, remember that Slughorn did not teach Voldemort how to make Horcruxes; Slughorn only confirmed that Horcruxes were real. We know that Voldemort could not learn this at Hogwarts, and we know that he had not learned it from the Chamber, as he was still asking about Horcruxes after he opened the Chamber. This means that he had to get the knowledge elsewhere. After he turned 17 (mid-6th year), he was free to apparate. This makes the summer between his 6th and 7th years as the earliest time that he could have freely traveled to learn the Horcrux secret.

I know Slughorn did not teach him how to make Horcruxes - he just gave him a starting point. We do not know exactly how he learned. I know he could not have learned from any book at Hogwarts. However, we do not know if he had access to other books while he was at Hogwarts. It is very possible that he could have gotten books on the Dark Arts from the Gaunt house. Yes, that is pure speculation but it is possible.

The canon refutes this (HBP Amer. edition pg. 502):

Dumbledore: "Lord Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years, and the transformation he has undergone seemed to me to be only explicable if his soul was mutilated by the realms of what we might call 'usual evil'..."

Voldemort has always been a sadistic sociopath with no need for friends or love, and an ego the size of a small planet. However, he physically has transformed extensively. Moreover, the amount of physical deformation correlates to the minimum number of Horcruxes that we know Voldemort had (red eyes at at least one; melted visage, permanently blood shot eye at three; snake-like visage with red-eyes at five).

Now, you might say that Dumbledore offers a contradictory explanation in CoS: but that was before Dumbledore had worked out that Voldemort had multiple horcruxes.

There also is additional corroborative evidence. None of the Death Eaters have undergone any of the transformations that Voldemort has, yet they were steeped deely in the dark arts, and they knew about things that Voldemort was doing (supposedly) to achieve immortality. (We now know that these were smoke screens for his Horcruxes.) Indeed, this might be part of how Regulus learned the secret, if he somehow stumbled upon the fact that Horcruxes alter the person.

Actually, I'm taking both comments into account. My impression is that it was both things that caused the transformation. The Horcruxes just made the transformation more extreme but, even so, not until after he had made five.

None of the Death Eaters has delved into the Dark Arts as deeply as Voldemort and none of them have made Horcruxes - that we know of.

The "somehow" is quite important. It was not at Hogwarts. The best idea is that he learned from Grindelwald. JKR has refused to answer questions regarding Grindelwald's potential importance.

This will be relevant because where Voldemort learned probably represents a very important place to him. Harry might glean this through Dumbledore's memories.

The diary suggests otherwise. More on that below. Also, in PS/SS Harry reads that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in 1945 - around the time that Voldemort left Hogwarts. Jo indicates that Dumbledore did not kill him but defeating him suggests to me that he is a prisoner in Azkaban and unavailable to teach someone anything.

This is where Ginny and magic come into play, and also something about the timing of events. Grindelwald was in Europe, although JKR won't tell us whether he was involved with the Nazis. So, here we leave the firm ground of canon facts and enter some speculation. Given that Voldemort leaves Horcruxes at places important to him, and given that where he learned to make Horcruxes would be an important place, this unknown area would be a likely candidate for a Horcrux.

Where exactly is this? Well, one person who might "remember" is Dumbledore, who defeated Grindelwald in the first place. Did Grindelwald have a Horcrux? We don't know, but it actually is not that important. Dumbledore's memories could be what leads Harry to this place. (Somewhere in Albania, perhaps?) Harry will procure the memories at or around Hogwarts (Aberforth actually is at Hogsmeade).

I have serious doubts that any Horcruxes are hidden outside of England. The places important to Voldemort have all been shown to be in England thus far. The cave was located near the orphanage where he grew up - a location where something had happened when he was a child during an outing there. The orphanage itself is a possibility. The Riddle house is a possibility. Hogwarts is a strong possibility but I think the Horcrux there was hidden there out of necessity and Voldemort desperately wants to get it out of there.

How does this relate to Harry & Ginny? Well, this will be the time for Ginny to make her choice. Of course, to merit Harry AND to be consistent with the story, Ginny has to make the right and hard choice to follow Harry.

I agree with this but I think this will pertain to the final battle. Harry will want to keep Ginny out of it but she will play a part in it anyway.

This puts some time constraints on things: namely, Ginny had better know how to apparate by now. So, this would push things off till after Christmas.

Thus, I would look for Harry to spend August - January or so finding the locket, and then finding Horcrux #4. The hunt for Horcrux #5 will lead him back to where Ginny can then choose to follow him.

This is the main reason why I feel Ginny will not participate actively in the search for the Horcruxes. I believe they will locate the locket and the cup prior to school starting and return to school to find the third, unknown Horcrux. I think Jo is going to continue the pattern of one year per book although book 7 will contain an epilogue that occurs sometime in the future. But the main plot of the book will be wrapped up by the end of the school year.

This is correct, but you have the sequence backwards. Voldemort first made it a Diary. Later, he turned it into a Horcrux. Harry asks why, because it was not special. Dumbledore corrects him: to Voldemort, his old Diary was "of stupendous importance" because it proved he was Slytherin's Heir. Dumbledore clearly thought that the book was first a magical diary, then later a Horcrux.

The canon gives no indication that either the Ring or the Diary was a Horcrux before Voldemort left Hogwarts. Because the canon attributes Voldemort's transformation to Horcruxes, it makes the idea that Voldemort had two Horcruxes when he killed Smith unlikely (given how much damage only 5 caused).

That is not supported by canon. I agree that it is debatable whether the diary or the ring was made first but the diary was definitely made into a Horcrux at the same time the memory was recorded in it. It had to be because of it's intended use. In order for it to work the way Riddle wanted it to, it had to contain a piece of his soul. Dumbledore makes that very clear when he tells Harry that it was how the diary worked that made him suspect it was a Horcrux.

Canon supports saying that both the diary and the ring were made into Horcruxes before Riddle left Hogwarts. The order is debatable but they were both definitely made into Horcruxes while Riddle was a student.

The canon contradicts this. (You do seem to think that Dumbledore's ideas are always erroneous!) First, Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort got the idea for using founder's artifacts in particular after finding two with Smith. That was after Voldemort left Hogwarts. Second, Dumbledore cannot determine whether Voldemort acquired anything of Ravenclaw's. However, your scenario requires that the theft of the Ravenclaw relic be discovered: how could Dumbledore not learn about this? How could he avoid putting 2+2 together? Conversely, if Dumbledore did not learn, then why did Voldemort fear getting caught? This is an inherent contradiction.

Dumbledore himself says that he is speculating and could be wrong because the details of Voldemort's life were difficult for him to find and what he did find took a lot of work and persuasion. Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort decided to use artifacts from the founders after acquiring the locket and the cup - "thinks" being the key word there. It is also possible that Voldemort thought of this before. It explains why he took a lowly clerks position at Burgin and Borkes - a position that gave him access to many different artifacts and led to the discovery of the locket and the cup. He knew about the locket before from his visit to Morfin. I think Dumbledore's speculation is right for the most part but that does not mean that some of it can't be wrong.

My speculation regarding the tiara is just speculation. I do think the tiara is highly probable as being the unknown Horcrux. I think it is very possible that Riddle made it into a Horcrux during his seventh year and was forced to hide it in the Room of Requirement out of necessity and was unable to retrieve it before leaving school. That is very possible and canon does not contradict that possibility. Dumbledore said that, to his knowledge, Voldemort never acquired a Ravenclaw artifact. In my speculation, the theft was discovered but the thief was not caught. In my speculation, Dumbledore does not know what happened to the tiara - it was never found and Voldemort was never caught with it. But, that is just speculation - one possibility out of many.

It is also very possible that the Horcrux is hidden in the Chamber of Secrets. There was a thread speculating on there being more to the chamber because it referred to secrets, indicating more than one secret being contained there.

Whatever the Horcrux turns out to be, I feel very strongly that it will be something that we have seen before - something that was mentioned in passing in one of the books, most likely HBP. The reason I think the Room of Requirement is most likely is because of the time Jo spent in describing that version of the room and the objects hidden there - of those objects, the tiara seemed to be the most likely thing that could have belonged to Ravenclaw. I think Dumbledore is correct in his speculation that the sword is the only artifact that belonged to Gryffindor.

This follows her pattern of mentioning something in passing that seems unimportant but turns out to be important in another book. The Whomping Willow - mentioned in passing in COS - turned out to be important in POA. The Vanishing cabinet mentioned in passing in COS and OOTP - turned out to be important in HBP. The locket mentioned in passing in OOTP will likely turn out to be the locket Horcrux. These patterns help us in determining what will happen next.

Also, it is pure fan-fiction. Nothing in the canon suggests that the tiara is linked to Ravenclaw, or that any of these people existed.

Nothing in canon suggested the locket belonged to Slytherin either. It is only because of the information given in HBP that this became a possibility. In OOTP, it was just a heavy locket that none of them could open. ;)

I think that almost none of these events even happened. You cannot cite Dumbledore's comments to support you: your arguments require that Dumbledore be wrong most of the time. JKR's comments do not support you: she has said that VII is about tracking down the Horcruxes and Voldemort. Riddles' comments in CoS are too general: they are consistent with numerous scenarios.

I'm in the middle of moving and I'm staying at my parents this week so I don't have access to my books to provide quotes, which is very frustrating. But I based all of that on the books - what Dumbledore told Harry, the memories that he showed him in the pensieve, and the events that occurred in COS. I don't think Dumbledore is wrong about everything but I also don't believe that he was right about everything either. Even Dumbledore says that he could be completely wrong because he is just guessing about a lot of it.

Nothing Jo said has indicated to me that book 7 will only be about tracking down the Horcruxes and Voldemort. In fact, her interviews strongly indicate that Hogwarts will continue to be the central location in book 7.

Here is the link to the thread I mentioned before.

JKR Interviews - A post-HBP evaluation (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=69181)

vivekgk posted numerous quotes from Jo's interviews here. Specifically, Jo said that there would be one book for each year at Hogwarts and that we would see Harry into his final year at Hogwarts. She has also commented on there being a new DADA professor in book 7, more from the Sorting hat, and that Harry thinks he knows what he has to do - which means he is wrong. All of this tells me that Hogwarts will be the central location of book 7, just as it always has been.

But, Meesha, the huge problem is that none of this speculation has anything to do with the story. It is all highly contrived plot designed to keep Harry at Hogwarts. Harry Potter is not about Hogwarts: it is about [b]choices. Harry, Ron and Hermione made their big choice at the end of HBP: they are taking the hard road to destroy the Horcruxes and Voldemort.

If JKR had them flip-flop on this, then all of the thematic impact of the last book would be dissolved at once. It would turn Harry Potter into just a meaningless series of events: a soap-opera plot with no story at all. Indeed, if they do not stick to it, then the story is seriously compromised, if not ruined. JKR stated that Dumbledore's closing lines in GoF summarized the rest of the story: the choice between what is right and what is easy. Returning to Hogwarts would be the easy cop-out. Moreover, what possible meaning would the final chapter have anymore?

I don't agree. Based on Jo's comments, Hogwarts will remain the central location. Jo has directly told us that Harry is wrong in his thinking at the end of HBP. He thinks that he has to drop out of school. He will discover that he does not. That does not compromise the story at all. It fits in with the pattern of the previous books.

I don't see Jo straying from her established pattern to a great degree. HBP strayed slightly by not ending on the Hogwarts Express but that was a minor deviance the usual pattern. I think book 7 will deviate slightly in that it will begin on the Hogwarts Express with them leaving Hogwarts - picking up right where HBP left off. Other than that, I see no reason for Jo to stray from the established pattern of the books.

The final chapter is an epilogue reportedly occuring in the future - possibly years into the future. It's purpose is to tell us who survived and what happened to them. That chapter is not affected by whether or not Hogwarts remains the central location in book 7.

Ginny now needs to make a comparable choice. It has to be a choice fraught with risks (e.g., danger to self, but also violating rules), and it has to be motivated by the right reasons (i.e., genuine feelings for Harry and sense of duty, not a childish desire for adventure).

Ginny's choice could be to follow them into the final battle. Leaving school and placing herself in danger in an attempt to help them. Again, that is not affected at all by whether or not Hogwarts remains the central location.

A plot with all of the Horcruxes conveniently waiting for Harry at Hogwarts, and with no difficult choices that other people will question will not serve this story at all.

Why would you think that all the Horcruxes are at Hogwarts? That certainly is not what I said. I said that there is one hidden there that Voldemort had to leave there out of necessity. He does not want it there - he desperately wants to get it out of there and hide it somewhere else.

It most certainly won't be easy and it most certainly won't fall into Harry's lap when he walks through the door. They still have to determine what the object is and find where it is hidden.

Another point, Hogwarts is important in their search for the unknown Horcrux. At Hogwarts they have access to research materials - books about the founders - old issues of the Daily Prophet to look into suspicious events or deaths - and so on. They will have access to Dumbledore's portrait. They could even have access to Dumbledore's private library and notes. It won't be easy but Hogwarts is the most logical place for them to be and the only way they will be allowed to be there is if they return as students.

They won't need Hogwarts to find the locket - something will occur that makes the connection to Regulus and the locket at Grimmauld Place. The cup is more difficult but I do believe that Dumbledore will have left information to Harry that will help him locate it. The unkown Horcrux is what they will need Hogwarts for. The most logical location for it to be hidden is at Hogwarts and having access to the library will help them ascertain what it is. I still think that it is possible that Ginny knows something that will lead them to where it is hidden.

That would completely undermine the story. Where would Ginny's choices be? Remember, the story focuses on people's choices: JKR cannot change the over-arching theme in the final book! (She can mess with the plot, but the point of a story is to tell a story, not a sequence of events.)

While I do feel that Ginny is going to play an important role in the final book - at least in the final battle - I do not feel that her choices are important to the story - neither are Ron and Hermione's. It is Harry's choices that are important. He is the hero - the one they are following. It has been his choices that have guided them all along.

Ginny will probably have a choice to make but that choice will not be affected by the location. Whether they are at Hogwarts or somewhere else - that does not decrease the significance of her choices or anyone elses.

Finally, from the plot-perspective, having all the Horcruxes at Hogwarts would be what is called an idiot-plot: i.e., one where things are solved only by having a generally intelligent person do something stupid.

By that definition, all of the books have had "idiot-plots". In each book Harry does something stupid and gets lucky. In PS/SS, he assumed that Snape was the bad guy and was after the stone. He was wrong and through a combination of skill, help from his friends, and luck was successful in stopping Voldemort from getting the stone anyway. In COS, he did quite a few stupid things and made a few incorrect assumptions. Again, it was the combination of skill, help from his friends, and luck that helped him succeed. In POA, they believed that Sirius was in league with Voldemort. Again, Harry did something stupid and got lucky because Sirius wasn't really the bad guy at all. In GOF, Harry makes many mistakes and assumptions and gets lucky because his and Voldemort's wands do not work against each other. In OOTP, Harry made a huge mistake and nearly got all of them killed. He got lucky again because the Order showed up in time to save them.

It is the same pattern in each book. Harry makes assumptions - turns out to be wrong - then has a stroke of luck that allows him to succeed.

Again, the resolution of Harry & Ginny needs to revolve around choices that both of them make. They need to be difficult choices, fraught with potentially nasty ramifications. JKR already has told us that this is the story. A hostage Ginny serves no purpose: this reduces her charcter to just the trophy princess, and makes Ginny no better than what her detractors pretend to see.

Well, I never said that Ginny would be a hostage. I do think that it's possible that Ginny could get captured but if that were to occur, I think she would manage to escape on her own. We have also discussed here the possibility of Ginny rescuing Harry this time. She gets captured but escapes - Harry goes after her to try and rescue her and ends up getting captured and she rescues him instead. That was one scenario we came up with. Pure speculation but it would be a nice twist.

I fail to see how them returning to Hogwarts would affect any of their choices regarding their relationship, the Horcruxes, or the battle.

To repeat again, people have to consider the story when hypothesizing about plots. When suggesting that something might happen or that someone might do something, stop and ask: how does this fit into the story? What is the "right" choice here? What is the "easy" choice? What would this character do given the development to date?

None of which is affected by them returning to school. The choices remain the same. Find the Horcruxes - two of which will most likely be located prior to school starting with the third at Hogwarts. Finding the Horcrux at Hogwarts will be a difficult and daunting task - made more difficult by Harry excluding Ginny because she very likely knows something. Locate Nagini and Voldemort - another difficult task which cannot be accomplished until the first three Horcruxes are found and destroyed. Again, Ginny could know something of value here. Her communication with Riddle could have resulted in her knowing of places that are important to him.

Also, I think Harry needs to finish his education in order to be able to defeat Voldemort. We know that there will be a new DADA teacher and Harry could learn something important there - something that will help him in the final battle.

Jo has pretty much told us that Harry will return for his final year - one book for each year at Hogwarts - we will see Harry into his final year - he thinks he knows what he has to do. There will be a new DADA teacher - which would be unnecessary if Harry is not returning to school - and we will learn more from the Sorting hat - which would not be possible if Harry is not there to hear the song.

I disagree with one point we do not know when exactly Riddle learned to make a horocrux. I was under the impression that he was asking Slughorn, not how to make one but if in fact you would be able to make more than one from a single soul (His desire to make 7 as opposed to one) That in itself would lead me to believe that he in fact knew the process for making a horocrux already. So it is possible he made one of his diary sucessfully and was thus encouraged to seek out ways to make more.

That is an excellent point. It is very possible that Riddle already knew how to make a Horcrux and was only trying to ascertain if it was possible for a person to make more than one - if one soul could be divided into seven pieces.

Actually, that makes perfect sense. After all, the fact that he knew anything about Horcruxes at that point would suggest that he already knew how to make one.

For the rest of your post, I completly agree, particularly about Ginny having an understanding of Riddle's mind. She communicated with him through the diary for a year. It is very possible that she has information that will be important - information that she does not realize is important.

Wow, is it just me, or does anyone else think this thread has deviated very far from its title topic? Oh well. When in Rome....
That timeline does not take into account the information we learned in HBP - it says so right at the top. I don't have my books with me to corroborate but I believe Riddle tells Harry in the chamber that it took him five years to figure out the location of the chamber and how to open it. He does not say when he started looking. Riddle is also described as being 16 when he comes out of the diary. Whether or not the chamber was opened in the fifth or sixth year is debatable without knowing Voldemort's birthday - if that has been revealed I missed it. Does anyone know?
Wimsey is quite correct. Though we do not know Voldemort's exact age at the time, we do know that he opened the Chamber during his fith year at Hogwarts because he tells this to Harry through the diary, "In my fifth year, the Chamber was opened and the monster attacked several students, finally killing one." So the issue of what year Tom was in when he opened the Chamber is not debatable regardless of how old Voldemort was. And I speculate that he was fifteen when he opened it and turned sixteen sometime between then and the next school year, and he could not have preserved his memories into his diary until the events had all occured, so he very well could have been sixteen and in his sixth year at this point. However, we know that at sixteen Voldemort knew what a Horcrux was, but he did not know how to encase the torn part of the soul into the desired object. As he would most likely not find this spell at Hogwarts because its purpose is so Dark, it is very possible that he did not learn it until after he left school. That does not mean Voldemort could not have preserved his memories into the diary at sixteen and then later turned it into a Horcrux post-Hogwarts. This is what I believe to have happened, as a matter of fact.

So this post is not completely off topic, I'll say that I am undecided whether or not Ginny will go with Harry to destroy the Horcruxes. I did not even consider it as a possibility, as Ginny is still underage and thus any magic she uses outside of school can be tracked by the ministry. However, maybe they will not be enforcing the restrictions on underage magic outside of the school as strictly as the have in the past considering that the Ministry has more pressing matter on its mind what with the war against the Dark Lord and all. So maybe she will come after all.

I have only just realised the astonishing resemblance between the Harry/ Ginny relationship compared to James and Lily Potter. I never really like Ginny. Imagine if they get together (or even married) in book 7 and went into hiding like James and Lily and had a kid. What if histroy was to repeat itself i.e. Voldemort was to find Harry and Ginny and kill them but not their son or even daughter.

I have only just realised the astonishing resemblance between the Harry/ Ginny relationship compared to James and Lily Potter. I never really like Ginny. Imagine if they get together (or even married) in book 7 and went into hiding like James and Lily and had a kid. What if histroy was to repeat itself i.e. Voldemort was to find Harry and Ginny and kill them but not their son or even daughter.
I don't think there is any similarity between the relationships of Harry/Ginny and James/Lily. James and Lily hated each other. Ginny and Harry have always been friends, even if they weren't really close until the sixth book. I also doubt that Harry and Ginny would have a child before either Voldemort or Harry was dead, so I don't believe that their son (or daughter, not trying to be sexist) is going to become the new chosen one.

Wow, is it just me, or does anyone else think this thread has deviated very far from its title topic? Oh well. When in Rome....

Wimsey is quite correct. Though we do not know Voldemort's exact age at the time, we do know that he opened the Chamber during his fith year at Hogwarts because he tells this to Harry through the diary, "In my fifth year, the Chamber was opened and the monster attacked several students, finally killing one." So the issue of what year Tom was in when he opened the Chamber is not debatable regardless of how old Voldemort was. And I speculate that he was fifteen when he opened it and turned sixteen sometime between then and the next school year, and he could not have preserved his memories into his diary until the events had all occured, so he very well could have been sixteen and in his sixth year at this point. However, we know that at sixteen Voldemort knew what a Horcrux was, but he did not know how to encase the torn part of the soul into the desired object. As he would most likely not find this spell at Hogwarts because its purpose is so Dark, it is very possible that he did not learn it until after he left school. That does not mean Voldemort could not have preserved his memories into the diary at sixteen and then later turned it into a Horcrux post-Hogwarts. This is what I believe to have happened, as a matter of fact.

Thanks for clearing up the issue of when the chamber was opened. It is so frustrating not to have my books with me right now. I may resort to going to the library to check them out. I hate moving. :grumble:

Anyway, this is not off topic because we are discussing how these events will play out in terms of what role Ginny will play in book 7.

As was posted last night, it is entirely feasible that Riddle already knew how to make a Horcrux when he asked Slughorn about them. Like I said, I don't have my books but, from memory, his main question to Slughorn was whether or not it would be possible to make more than one - seven being the number he had in mind. The fact that he knew about Horcruxes at all suggests that he already knew how to make one and only wanted to see if it were possible to make more than one Horcrux from one soul. That appears to be what he was most interested in.

As for the diary, for it's intended purpose, it had to be a Horcrux. It had to contain a piece of soul in order to work the way Riddle intended it to. When he realized that they were considering closing the school, he decided to frame Hagrid for opening the chamber to prevent that. He knew that it would be too risky for him to open the chamber again while he was a student so he came up with a way to control another student and open the chamber at a later date - when it would not be a risk to him. In order for that to work, the diary had to contain a piece of soul. Otherwise, it would have just been a magical record of Riddle's memory - not able to possess or control anyone. In order for the diary to work as Riddle intended it to, he had to know how to make it a Horcrux.

Actually, the more I think about it - the more that makes sense. That would explain how he found out about Horcruxes in the first place. He was looking for a way to control another student at a later date to re-open the chamber.

So this post is not completely off topic, I'll say that I am undecided whether or not Ginny will go with Harry to destroy the Horcruxes. I did not even consider it as a possibility, as Ginny is still underage and thus any magic she uses outside of school can be tracked by the ministry. However, maybe they will not be enforcing the restrictions on underage magic outside of the school as strictly as the have in the past considering that the Ministry has more pressing matter on its mind what with the war against the Dark Lord and all. So maybe she will come after all.

I don't think Ginny will go with Harry to destroy the Horcruxes. I think that will be the trio only. However, I do think that it is possible that Ginny could know some information that will help them but not realize this information is significant. She communicated with Riddle through the diary for a year. He talked to her and told her things to gain her trust - just as he did with Harry. It is very possible that she might know of places that were important to him. Without knowing about the Horcruxes and that Voldemort hid them in places of significance to him, Ginny would not realize that the fact that Riddle liked this place or that place could be significant. She could also know some other things that happened at Hogwarts at the time Riddle was a student there.

But I doubt she will be an active participant in the search itself. Most likely, the information she has will be revealed inadvertently - possibly she will finally tell Harry (and possibly Ron and Hermione) what she went through with the diary and in the process mention something that Riddle told her. Harry will realize the importance because he knows about the Horcruxes.

I think Ginny's main contribution will be in the final battle. I still think it would be cool for Ginny to end up having to rescue Harry.

I think Ginny's main contribution will be in the final battle. I still think it would be cool for Ginny to end up having to rescue Harry.

I still believe her main part will be playing Voldemort's bait for Harry.

Not be be argumentive - - but this is not Ginny's story.

ALL of the characters in HP are made or broken by the choices. The story is about choices, after all. Now, the BIG choices have to be Harry's. However, the supporting characters have to make their choices, or the story is undermined.


She may have already made the only "choice" that Rowling wanted her to make, when she peacefully chose to let Harry break up with her and go play the hero. Not an easy choice for Ginny...but in the end, it may have been the right one. Only Book 7 will tell.

JKR already has said that we'll see powerful magic from Ginny in VII, so we know that is wrong. Also, given the "moral" themes of HP, Ginny just sitting back would not be the right thing to do. Harry (and Ron!) might prefer that she did, but if JKR wants Ginny to appear to merit Harry, then Ginny has to make a similar choice.


That is very true. The Horcrux mission is an ideal opportunity to show us even more as to why Ginny is so perfect for Harry. She might not be directly involved in the quest because it I have a strong feeling that it will focus on the Trio, but she'll find some way to help them, possibly by communicating with them through Sirius' mirror.



[QUOTE=PotionA]We all know how smart you are

If I was so smart, then: A) I would have been arguing that Voldemort had deliberately hidden his soul (which we know is basically true), and B) I would been clever enough to realize that we were arguing over an "OR" that need not have existed!

My real point (besides how charmingly brilliant I am :cool:) was that the idea that Harry has a piece of Voldemort's soul predates HBP. I remember people talking about it as far back as GoF.


not to mention that it emphasizes a lot on Harry's ability to love and his willingness to sacrifice himself for those he loves (which will be the thing that will ultimately destroy the soulpiece but this is for another thread).

Again, this is why Ginny cannot remain in the background for the entire book. Love is a many splendored thing and all of that: we've got the platonic love with Ron & Hermione, we've seen familial love get the ball rolling and extended to Sirius, we've seen the love of a mentor: we need some good old fashioned boy+girl love. (Well, it need not be that, but this ain't Brokeback Mountain.....)



...your wife's translation is absolutely right

Despite the fact that she married me, she really is a smart chick......


I disagree with one point we do not know when exactly Riddle learned to make a horocrux. I was under the impression that he was asking Slughorn, not how to make one but if in fact you would be able to make more than one from a single soul (His desire to make 7 as opposed to one) That in itself would lead me to believe that he in fact knew the process for making a horocrux already. So it is possible he made one of his diary sucessfully and was thus encouraged to seek out ways to make more.

If you re-read the section, you will read that Voldemort is most insistent about learning how the Horcrux is made. He asks not once, but twice, almost losing his cool and almost scaring Slughorn away from the topic. Also, Dumbledore notes that Voldemort could not obtain that information at Hogwarts. Voldemort's first real opportunities to travel far from Hogwarts and learn these things came afterwards. This probably will be important: it might lead to another Horcrux location.

Again, this is relevant, because how Harry & Ginny interact will depend on where the two of them are. Harry will not be at Hogwarts for most of the school year, although the Horcrux search might lead him there for a time. This means that, as JKR stressed in the "Delusional" Interview, the lovers must be parted for a time.


Also to stay on more on topic. I see Ginny Weasley having a large part in *** final book.

Almost certainly: however, the role that any of them play will depend on where Harry's Horcrux hunting takes him. Using the canon and logic, we can dismiss as unlikely the idea that Harry is going to be searching for them while at Hogwarts. (Yes, JKR did say one book for each year, but this is meaningless: she could not really state differently!) What becomes important is the scenario that brings Ginny back into the narrative and plot, and thus the scenario that can bring her into the story. At some point, Ginny has to make a choice like Ron & Hermione did. In Ginny's case, the choice is even "harder" because she (unlike the two adults) will be disobeying her parents and breaking school rules.


Finally we come to Ginny: She has on more than one occasion proven herself a formidable witch. She also shows the same out side of the box thinking we see most vididly in the antics of Fred and George (OOTP contacting Sirius). She isn't afraid to bend or break the rules, or to find ways around them.

This is why I think that Ginny will leave school without permission to pursue the Trio. JKR has established that Ginny will break rules when she thinks it is the right thing to do.

Also, the powerful magic might come into play here. Notably, there are many more scenarios for Ginny to contribute to theme and plot if she is at Hogwarts while the Trio are not.


I still believe her main part will be playing Voldemort's bait for Harry.

This is possible, but it strikes me as improbable. JKR has devoted too much time to developing Ginny as a "can do" character to reduce her to the trophy hostage princess. Also, this would deprive JKR of the opportunity to use Ginny for the story, and JKR tends to use as many characters for her story as possible. It would make things such as getting to see Ginny use powerful magic more difficult: if she is kidnapped, then it will be "off-camera" and the magic will not look all that impressive if she is bagged.

Finally, keep in mind that JKR is a woman. Men would be much more prone to using a female character purely as a plot element, but I do not think that JKR wants to do that. One of the underlying themes of her story is that power is not distributed by birth, class or race: reducing a female character to just a trophy would (even if inadvertantly) contradict that theme.

I still believe her main part will be playing Voldemort's bait for Harry.

I highly doubt it. The possibility exists that Ginny could be captured but she has reached a level where she could escape on her own - possibly even escape her captors before the reach their destination. And even the possibility of Ginny being captured has a low probability.

Back to the topic at hand. I don't think Ginny and Harry will reunite too early in the book. I think that will be Ron and Hermione. Harry and Ginny won't reunite until after the trio returns to school - sometime in the middle of the book would be my guess but it's possible that Harry will once again hold out until close to the end of the year.

Originally Posted by IceKat55
Not be be argumentive - - but this is not Ginny's story.

Amen to that! :lol:


Originally Posted by PotionA
...your wife's translation is absolutely right


Despite the fact that she married me, she really is a smart chick......

Ooh, getting a bit cocky, are we? :rotfl:


I still believe her main part will be playing Voldemort's bait for Harry.

I don't think so. She's already done it once in CoS, there's not much of a chance that it will happen again.
Almost certainly: however, the role that any of them play will depend on where Harry's Horcrux hunting takes him. Using the canon and logic, we can dismiss as unlikely the idea that Harry is going to be searching for them while at Hogwarts. (Yes, JKR did say one book for each year, but this is meaningless: she could not really state differently!) What becomes important is the scenario that brings Ginny back into the narrative and plot, and thus the scenario that can bring her into the story. At some point, Ginny has to make a choice like Ron & Hermione did. In Ginny's case, the choice is even "harder" because she (unlike the two adults) will be disobeying her parents and breaking school rules.

I think the Horcrux Hunt will be done during the summer, after the wedding. They are DEFINETELY going back to Hogwarts (seven books, seven years, oh yeah, they're going alright), so they'll have to do it then. And they will all be of age (except Ginny, so Mrs. Weasley might not approve of her going) so no one can object, unless Mrs. Weasley pulls out the authority button ("As long as you live under my roof, I tell you what to do! Blah blah blah..." VERY annoying) and tries to interfere. If Ginny accompanies the trio (Ron will somehow convince his mom to let him go) it will be because she snuck after them, or because she accompanied them and told them that Mrs. Wealsey said she could, when really she probably won't. That IS her only daughter, after all.

I don't think there is any similarity between the relationships of Harry/Ginny and James/Lily. James and Lily hated each other. Ginny and Harry have always been friends, even if they weren't really close until the sixth book. I also doubt that Harry and Ginny would have a child before either Voldemort or Harry was dead, so I don't believe that their son (or daughter, not trying to be sexist) is going to become the new chosen one.

I see physical resemblance, but no real emotional ties or connections to the past pair (James and Lily). Coincidence, maybe? Or maybe the Potters have a thing for redheads..

As was posted last night, it is entirely feasible that Riddle already knew how to make a Horcrux when he asked Slughorn about them. Like I said, I don't have my books but, from memory, his main question to Slughorn was whether or not it would be possible to make more than one - seven being the number he had in mind. The fact that he knew about Horcruxes at all suggests that he already knew how to make one and only wanted to see if it were possible to make more than one Horcrux from one soul. That appears to be what he was most interested in.

The memory makes it quite clear that Riddle did not know. He asks Slughorn how it works, and Harry can see how excited he is getting. Slughorn says that you split the sould and put the piece in an object. Riddle then asks "How do you split your soul?" At this point, Harry could see that Riddle's expression was greedy and that Riddle could no longer hide his desire for the knowledge.

Slughorn then prevaricates, and Riddle asks him again "How do you do it?"

Upon being told that you then encased the soul, Riddle's response is:
"Encase? But how-" at which point Slughorn cuts him off.

Given Riddle's reactions, it was obvious that he was finally learning the generalizations of how the Horcrux was made. Also, Dumbledore points out that even this knowledge that Voldemort got from Slughorn, Voldemort could not have gotten elsewhere.

Indeed, it also bears noting that Voldemort actually does not get confirmation that you could make 6; what he does get is Slughorn not telling him that it is impossible, only that it is utterly wrong, which was tacit confirmation that the idea was theoretically possible: Slughorn would have corrected him otherwise.


As for the diary, for it's intended purpose, it had to be a Horcrux.

The Diary obviously did not include a piece of soul initially. It was "just" a magical diary. (It probably was a sophisticated piece of magic, mind you, but nothing that shocked the Weasleys; only Dumbledore recognized it as exceptional).

It was only years later that Voldemort gave it the second purpose of being a Horcrux. The fusing of his soul into the Diary seemingly also imparted some of his basic magical talents such as parseltongue and gave the Diary the ability to possess. It is possible (but not certain) that the mixing of the magically preserved memories with the soul fragment enhanced not just the Diary, but the capacity of the soul, too. However, JKR would have to confirm that.


Actually, the more I think about it - the more that makes sense. That would explain how he found out about Horcruxes in the first place. He was looking for a way to control another student at a later date to re-open the chamber.

This assumes that Voldemort already knew that a horcrux could have the capacity to possess someone. Also, why would Voldemort want this? His intention was to remain at Hogwarts. He hoped to become the DADA teacher.


I don't think Ginny will go with Harry to destroy the Horcruxes. I think that will be the trio only. However, I do think that it is possible that Ginny could know some information that will help them but not realize this information is significant.

This would be a Mafalda-esque plothole, if Ginny somehow knows something. How could she know something that Dumbledore did not? The idea that Riddle would tell her anything is far-fetched: Voldemort is incredibly secretive. Indeed, we have no reason to think that he really had any clear idea about Horcruxes when he wrote the Diary: remember, he did not even get confirmation of their existence or learn how they could be made until the next year.

Also, this would reduce Ginny to all plot and no story. In a story about Choices and Motivations, and where love is such an important aspect of motivation, having Ginny be nothing but a plot point would seriously undermine the story. Harry's girlfriend has to be thematic herself, not just an item.


But I doubt she will be an active participant in the search itself. Most likely, the information she has will be revealed inadvertently - possibly she will finally tell Harry (and possibly Ron and Hermione) what she went through with the diary and in the process mention something that Riddle told her. Harry will realize the importance because he knows about the Horcruxes.

But when will she see them? The Trio will be off Horcrux hunting. Ginny will be either at Hogwarts or at the Burrow. Why would things from the Diary seem worth discussing?

Moreover, the Diary has only memories from before the time that Riddle even knew how to make Horcruxes. It is possible that the soul fragment had more (memory is one of the many properties of the soul in Potterverse), but it is hard to determine whether the soul fragment left at some unknown date had any "post-Diary" memories. Ginny obviously told Riddle a lot, and possibly it was the soul fragment that retained knowledge of what she knew. (Again, the original memory-storing spell might have been able to do that, too: only JKR can answer that.)

Finally, we have to keep in mind that Riddle kept who he was exactly quite secret. He listened to Ginny, but it seems that most of what he put into her was the power inherent to his soul. This gave her the ability to do parseltongue, etc., but we do not have any clear clue that it gave Ginny "memories" of from the soul between the time Voldemort was 16 and when he made the diary a Horcrux some unknown number of years later.


I think Ginny's main contribution will be in the final battle. I still think it would be cool for Ginny to end up having to rescue Harry.

Now, with this I can agree in part. I can see Ginny pulling Harry back.

However, Ginny has to contribute to the story earlier than that. She has to be more than a plot element: she needs to be a thematic one, too.

Again, this is why Ginny cannot remain in the background for the entire book. Love is a many splendored thing and all of that: we've got the platonic love with Ron & Hermione, we've seen familial love get the ball rolling and extended to Sirius, we've seen the love of a mentor: we need some good old fashioned boy+girl love.


Well put. It seems to me that it fits JKR's philosophy to demonstrate love in various forms.

This is possible, but it strikes me as improbable. JKR has devoted too much time to developing Ginny as a "can do" character to reduce her to the trophy hostage princess. Also, this would deprive JKR of the opportunity to use Ginny for the story, and JKR tends to use as many characters for her story as possible. It would make things such as getting to see Ginny use powerful magic more difficult: if she is kidnapped, then it will be "off-camera" and the magic will not look all that impressive if she is bagged.

Finally, keep in mind that JKR is a woman. Men would be much more prone to using a female character purely as a plot element, but I do not think that JKR wants to do that. One of the underlying themes of her story is that power is not distributed by birth, class or race: reducing a female character to just a trophy would (even if inadvertantly) contradict that theme.

I agree to this also. I don't think Ginny will be used as bait. If someone tries to do so, I think they will regret it.

I've got a feeling that Harry may turn the tables in the last book - that he will lure Voldemort to the final encounter rather than the other way around. I don't think there's any evidence one way or another about such a thing, so I probably feel this way just because I like the idea. It would be a clever role reversal. When Harry has possession of any of the Horcurxes that are historical artifacts, they could certainly would be potential bait that could lure Voldemort to a meeting.

I think the Horcrux Hunt will be done during the summer, after the wedding. They are DEFINETELY going back to Hogwarts (seven books, seven years, oh yeah, they're going alright), so they'll have to do it then.

I agree, I still believe that Harry will be going back to Hogwarts. I certainly could be wrong, but I feel very confident about this point based on JKRs comments. The main question I have is who or what will convince Harry to change his mind and go back to Hogwarts.

The summer would certainly be a good time to hunt Horcruxes. There is also the Christmas break, and no doubt if need be Harry could leave Hogwarts for a short time to attempt a Horcrux retrieval. I'm also of the opinion that one or two Horcruxes may turn out to be in Hogwarts.

Even if none of the Horcruxes are at Hogwarts, the job of going to get a Horcrux doesn't need to take long once you know where it is. (Dumbledore and Harry's trip certainly wasn't very long.) What takes time is figuring out where the Horcruxes are, and how to destroy them. Depending on what's involved, that kind of activity could take place at Hogwarts.

It seems to me likely that there will be periods of time when Harry is simply stuck - lacking any ideas to pursue to find the next Horcrux. These could be fairly lengthy periods of time when life goes on more or less like normal.

I just thought of an analogy. In the GOF, Harry has 3 huge, challenging tasks to complete. How many days of the year does he spend solving these tasks? Not very many. He procrastinates until the last few days every time.

I don't think that Harry will be procrastinating in searching for the Horcruxes - he's too motivated for that. But if he has no useful ideas to pursue for lengthy periods of time, the result could be the same - life goes on as normal, albeit with a big threat looming all the time. This would give plenty of time for character development of various types; Ron/Herminone, Harry/Ginny, other students or teachers, etc.

I really do hope that Harry and Ginny make it through this war, I just want Harry to live a happy life free from Voldermont.

I really do hope that Harry and Ginny make it through this war, I just want Harry to live a happy life free from Voldermont.

Agreed - that' what I would like to see happen, and I think that's what Harry really wants out of life - to have a relatively peaceful life, with the experience of a family that he so much missed as a child.

I see Harry as a sort of 'everyman' - a good, decent person, thrust into extraordinary circumstances. Harry is only special because of what Volemort did to him and his family. Harry is compelled to pursue Voldemort, both because of his family's history, and because he knows Voldemort will be after him in any case.

But Harry isn't a fame seeker; and I don't think pursuing danger is what makes him really happy. His happiest times are when he's with the Weasleys, and when he's with Ginny. Just living an ordinary life - well, perhaps he's a wizard - but an ordinary wizard's life.

I think this is the reason why JKR says that she doesn't expect to write any more Harry Potter books - not because she's planning his death, but because once Voldemort is gone, Harry will be pretty much an ordinary wizard. A wizard who's had some very unusual and important experiences, but no longer special, no longer the 'chosen one' with a lonely, overwhelming mission in life.

Ginny and the other Weasley's will provide the things that Harry most wants in life. There's a moral I like in that idea. We all love to read about danger and adventure, and the hard decisions involved in facing danger. But what's really most important is what we do with our relationships in our mostly ordinary lives, and the 'ordinary' but nevertheless often hard decisions we have to make in day to day life. Ordinary lives don't make great stories, but in many ways it's what life is about for most of us, most of the time.

The memory makes it quite clear that Riddle did not know. He asks Slughorn how it works, and Harry can see how excited he is getting. Slughorn says that you split the sould and put the piece in an object. Riddle then asks "How do you split your soul?" At this point, Harry could see that Riddle's expression was greedy and that Riddle could no longer hide his desire for the knowledge.

Slughorn then prevaricates, and Riddle asks him again "How do you do it?"

Upon being told that you then encased the soul, Riddle's response is:
"Encase? But how-" at which point Slughorn cuts him off.

Given Riddle's reactions, it was obvious that he was finally learning the generalizations of how the Horcrux was made. Also, Dumbledore points out that even this knowledge that Voldemort got from Slughorn, Voldemort could not have gotten elsewhere.

Indeed, it also bears noting that Voldemort actually does not get confirmation that you could make 6; what he does get is Slughorn not telling him that it is impossible, only that it is utterly wrong, which was tacit confirmation that the idea was theoretically possible: Slughorn would have corrected him otherwise.

That fact that he knew of them at all leaves the possibility open. He knew more about them than what he could have learned at Hogwarts - Hermione was only able to find one reference that did not give any information - not what it was, what it did, how it worked - nothing. This suggests that Riddle had other sources of knowledge.

The Diary obviously did not include a piece of soul initially. It was "just" a magical diary. (It probably was a sophisticated piece of magic, mind you, but nothing that shocked the Weasleys; only Dumbledore recognized it as exceptional).

It was only years later that Voldemort gave it the second purpose of being a Horcrux. The fusing of his soul into the Diary seemingly also imparted some of his basic magical talents such as parseltongue and gave the Diary the ability to possess. It is possible (but not certain) that the mixing of the magically preserved memories with the soul fragment enhanced not just the Diary, but the capacity of the soul, too. However, JKR would have to confirm that.

This assumes that Voldemort already knew that a horcrux could have the capacity to possess someone. Also, why would Voldemort want this? His intention was to remain at Hogwarts. He hoped to become the DADA teacher.

Canon does not support that assumption. Riddle tells Harry in COS that he created the diary specifically to re-open the chamber. Creating a normal, magical diary would not accomplish that. He was looking for a way to control someone else - to get them to open the chamber for him at a later date when he was no longer a student. He discovered Horcruxes and sought to learn all he could about them. Dumbledore described Riddle as being brilliant. He created a new type of Horcrux with the diary - one that not only contained a piece of his soul but his knowledge and memory up to that point as well. Those two things in conjunction would serve to control another person if they used the diary long enough.

And, as I said before, I believe that the only reason Riddle applied for a teaching position was because he was forced to hide a Horcrux there and he desperately wants access to the school so he can retrieve it and hide it in a safer place - for him - a place where he can protect it himself, with his own enchantments - a place where he does not have to worry about it being discovered by Dumbledore or another student. This would have occurred after the diary Horcrux was created - most likely near the end of his seventh year.

This would be a Mafalda-esque plothole, if Ginny somehow knows something. How could she know something that Dumbledore did not? The idea that Riddle would tell her anything is far-fetched: Voldemort is incredibly secretive. Indeed, we have no reason to think that he really had any clear idea about Horcruxes when he wrote the Diary: remember, he did not even get confirmation of their existence or learn how they could be made until the next year.

Also, this would reduce Ginny to all plot and no story. In a story about Choices and Motivations, and where love is such an important aspect of motivation, having Ginny be nothing but a plot point would seriously undermine the story. Harry's girlfriend has to be thematic herself, not just an item.

Riddle showed Harry his capture of Hagrid to gain his trust. It is not far-fetched to say that he would have done something similar to gain Ginny's trust - to entice her to continue using the diary and pouring her soul into it. The information he would have given her would be seemingly insignificant. Maybe he told her about growing up in an orphanage to show sympathy and understanding to her insecurities. 16 year old Riddle did not know he was going to find Slytherin's locket and Hufflepuff's cup shortly after he left school He would not know where those objects were hidden. He could have told her something about growing up in the orphanage - other places they went on outings. He could have mentioned that there was a room at Hogwarts that could be used to hide things. He wouldn't have been completely forthcoming with her but he could have given her just enough truth to show himself to be a sympathetic companion for her not realizing that he was giving her information that could be used against him in the future.

Dumbledore is wise and powerful - he is not infallible. He tells Harry himself that a lot of the information is pure speculation - guesswork - and that he could be wrong. Ginny has one advantage over Dumbledore in the fact that she communicated with 16 year old Riddle for a year through the diary.

Nor do I believe this would reduce Ginny in any way. It would actually serve a purpose in bringing her back into the story. We have agreed that Ginny is unlikely to go with them on the initial search - she is still underage and cannot apparate. Ginny having information they need brings her back into the story, which will be necessary if she is going to have any importance at all.

But when will she see them? The Trio will be off Horcrux hunting. Ginny will be either at Hogwarts or at the Burrow. Why would things from the Diary seem worth discussing?

They will all be at the Burrow for the wedding. They will all return to Hogwarts as students - per Jo. There is also the mirror, which Jo said we would see again. Harry could give Ginny one of the mirrors so they can have a secure method of communicating while they are out searching.

Moreover, the Diary has only memories from before the time that Riddle even knew how to make Horcruxes. It is possible that the soul fragment had more (memory is one of the many properties of the soul in Potterverse), but it is hard to determine whether the soul fragment left at some unknown date had any "post-Diary" memories. Ginny obviously told Riddle a lot, and possibly it was the soul fragment that retained knowledge of what she knew. (Again, the original memory-storing spell might have been able to do that, too: only JKR can answer that.)

You already know what I believe regarding this. For my theory, this works perfectly. I believe 16 year old Riddle did know how to make Horcruxes and had made the diary into one. Canon supports this by having Riddle tell Harry his intentions in creating the diary.

Even without that, it would still work. 16 year old Riddle would have no way of knowing what he would do as he got older - what objects he would use as Horcruxes or where he would hide them. He very likely could have mentioned some small detail that seemed insignificant to him at the time, not realizing that it would have importance to his future self.

Finally, we have to keep in mind that Riddle kept who he was exactly quite secret. He listened to Ginny, but it seems that most of what he put into her was the power inherent to his soul. This gave her the ability to do parseltongue, etc., but we do not have any clear clue that it gave Ginny "memories" of from the soul between the time Voldemort was 16 and when he made the diary a Horcrux some unknown number of years later.

Again, I'm not saying that he poured out his deepest secrets to her. I think he just mentioned small details that seemed unimportant without realizing that they would become important later on. Locations important to him is a possibility.

And, just for the record, Riddle did not give any power to Ginny. He took over her body - controlled it. He tapped into her magical ability and used his own knowledge to open the chamber. There is no canon that even remotely suggests that Ginny received any additional powers during this time. Everything that she did while under the control of the diary was the work of Riddle, not Ginny.

Now, with this I can agree in part. I can see Ginny pulling Harry back.

However, Ginny has to contribute to the story earlier than that. She has to be more than a plot element: she needs to be a thematic one, too.

I agree and her knowing information that could help them - seemingly unimportant details given to her by Riddle - would accomplish that quite nicely.

I agree and her knowing information that could help them - seemingly unimportant details given to her by Riddle - would accomplish that quite nicely.

I also agree with this. I think that perhaps Tom Riddle gave Ginny some information during this time when she was wrting in the diary. Perhaps the information given to Ginny was not meant to be given to her, but given to her nonetheless. Perhaps Ginny never thought of it important before, but as I don't believe Harry will be dating Ginny during the middle/ beginning of the book (I firmly believe that he will defeat Voldemort first, as the prophecy stated, so he can have some normalacy of life), I still think Ginny will help from back at Hogwarts if it re-opens, and perhaps she will remeber something said by Tom Riddle back in the diary that could be proven important. I think she will still keep in contact with Harry, since they don't seem to be bitter about it, and it wasn't a typical "I think it would be better if we see other people" sort of break-up, it was a mere attempt for Harry to protect Ginny from harm, the same way he tried to protect Ron and Hermione by not having them come along (but that failed).

I agree and her knowing information that could help them - seemingly unimportant details given to her by Riddle - would accomplish that quite nicely.
I do wonder about that a lot. JK has reminded us of Ginny's possession for the past two books and how she hasn't forgotten a thing. The diary was also a horcrux. I think Ginny may know a lot more than we do. She had that diary and spoke to Tom Riddle through it for almost an entire year.
She may prove instrumental in locating a horcrux or where Tom may have possibly hid one.


Cheers :tu:

The Diary obviously did not include a piece of soul initially. It was "just" a magical diary. (It probably was a sophisticated piece of magic, mind you, but nothing that shocked the Weasleys; only Dumbledore recognized it as exceptional).


The diary is a very complex object that cannot be classified as "just" anything. Aside from the fact that it was a Horcrux, has anyone else considered the diary's remarkable likeness to a Pensieve? Perhaps Ginny did see something in the memories preserved in the diary that will come in useful for Harry during his search for the remaining Horcruxes.

I do wonder about that a lot. JK has reminded us of Ginny's possession for the past two books and how she hasn't forgotten a thing. The diary was also a horcrux. I think Ginny may know a lot more than we do. She had that diary and spoke to Tom Riddle through it for almost an entire year.
She may prove instrumental in locating a horcrux or where Tom may have possibly hid one.


Cheers :tu:
I somehow doubt that ginny actually knows where a horcrux is, but she might know better about Voldemort's personality than anyone else does.

The diary is a very complex object that cannot be classified as "just" anything. Aside from the fact that it was a Horcrux, has anyone else considered the diary's remarkable likeness to a Pensieve? Perhaps Ginny did see something in the memories preserved in the diary that will come in useful for Harry during his search for the remaining Horcruxes.


When I first learned about Pensieves in Book 4 I remembered the diary, and I find the likeness to be significant. There undoubtedly were other memories stored in the diary - the question is, can Harry get the diary back from the Malfoys and retrieve anything?

When I first learned about Pensieves in Book 4 I remembered the diary, and I find the likeness to be significant. There undoubtedly were other memories stored in the diary - the question is, can Harry get the diary back from the Malfoys and retrieve anything?
Getting the diary back would be worth nothing. Voldemort's soul is gone; it died when Harry stabbed it with the basilisk fang. All that would be there would be a grimy book. There's nothing in the diary of value to Harry.

Getting the diary back would be worth nothing. Voldemort's soul is gone; it died when Harry stabbed it with the basilisk fang. All that would be there would be a grimy book. There's nothing in the diary of value to Harry.

Not necessarily. I agree with Wimsey about the diary: Riddle made the diary first, and used it to be a Horcrux later. As a diary, there were many memories stored that might be useful in searching for the Horcruxes. Once the diary was made into a Horcrux, the memories became more interactive, but before that they probably behaved in the same way as Pensieve memories.

So the pre-Horcrux memories might still be intact, and they could yield important information. But Harry has a lot of obstacles to overcome to recover those memories, so it's not likely he'll go that route.

Does the diary really have anything to do with Harry and Ginny's future together? I think we've strayed off topic a bit, but, never mind that. I'm not sure anything survived the basilisk venom. Probably, if you poured basilisk venom into a pensieve, it would be destroyed.

Does the diary really have anything to do with Harry and Ginny's future together? I think we've strayed off topic a bit, but, never mind that. I'm not sure anything survived the basilisk venom. Probably, if you poured basilisk venom into a pensieve, it would be destroyed.
the reason why the diary came up was because some people wondered if ginny had gained any information while she was possessed or whatever with the diary and tom riddle for almost a year in the second book.

Not necessarily. I agree with Wimsey about the diary: Riddle made the diary first, and used it to be a Horcrux later. As a diary, there were many memories stored that might be useful in searching for the Horcruxes. Once the diary was made into a Horcrux, the memories became more interactive, but before that they probably behaved in the same way as Pensieve memories.

So the pre-Horcrux memories might still be intact, and they could yield important information. But Harry has a lot of obstacles to overcome to recover those memories, so it's not likely he'll go that route.

Actually, Wimsey is incorrect about the diary. Harry says himself at the end of COS that the diary is useless - no memory to get out of it anymore. Destroying the Horcrux destroyed everything. He was worried about it because they had no way to prove what the diary was - that it had contained Riddle's memory.

Riddle was looking for a way to control another student - to re-open the chamber at a future date when he was no longer a student and wouldn't be suspected. From what Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP regarding the diary, the reason it worked the way it did was because it was a Horcrux - it was more than a Horcrux because it had a memory stored in it but it was the fact that it was a Horcrux that allowed Ginny to be controlled. The diary was made into a Horcrux at the same time the memories were stored in it - it is the only Horcrux that had a purpose beyond storing a piece of Voldemort's soul and the intended purpose required it to be a Horcrux.

I don't think that Harry will be procrastinating in searching for the Horcruxes - he's too motivated for that. But if he has no useful ideas to pursue for lengthy periods of time, the result could be the same - life goes on as normal, albeit with a big threat looming all the time. This would give plenty of time for character development of various types; Ron/Herminone, Harry/Ginny, other students or teachers, etc.

I agree with you that Harry won't procrastinate in his search for the horcruxes, however I think that it will take a while for him to find them invoulentary. He will probably have a shortage of ideas on how to find them, but in the end (with help from Ginny, probably) he will get a plan together, and SAVE THE WIZARDING WORLD!!!!!!!

Or so I hope so. :tongueout:




I also agree with this. I think that perhaps Tom Riddle gave Ginny some information during this time when she was wrting in the diary. Perhaps the information given to Ginny was not meant to be given to her, but given to her nonetheless. Perhaps Ginny never thought of it important before, but as I don't believe Harry will be dating Ginny during the middle/ beginning of the book (I firmly believe that he will defeat Voldemort first, as the prophecy stated, so he can have some normalacy of life), I still think Ginny will help from back at Hogwarts if it re-opens, and perhaps she will remeber something said by Tom Riddle back in the diary that could be proven important. I think she will still keep in contact with Harry, since they don't seem to be bitter about it, and it wasn't a typical "I think it would be better if we see other people" sort of break-up, it was a mere attempt for Harry to protect Ginny from harm, the same way he tried to protect Ron and Hermione by not having them come along (but that failed).

I never thought of Ginny getting any key information about the Diary. I got the idea that she just wrote in it to get out her feelings about school, life, and Harry, like a normal girl (It was her first year, she didn't really have any friends). But the possibility that she might've gotten information from Voldemort seems slim to me. I highly doubt that he would let any of his plans slip away to an unknowing eleven year old. And even if he was planning to, he'd probably realize that it could come back to him. Well, at least I HOPE he wasn't that stupid.

I do wonder about that a lot. JK has reminded us of Ginny's possession for the past two books and how she hasn't forgotten a thing. The diary was also a horcrux. I think Ginny may know a lot more than we do. She had that diary and spoke to Tom Riddle through it for almost an entire year.
She may prove instrumental in locating a horcrux or where Tom may have possibly hid one.

True... ugh! You guys confuse me!!!!!!!!! :lol:

The diary is a very complex object that cannot be classified as "just" anything. Aside from the fact that it was a Horcrux, has anyone else considered the diary's remarkable likeness to a Pensieve? Perhaps Ginny did see something in the memories preserved in the diary that will come in useful for Harry during his search for the remaining Horcruxes.

But she would've remembered seeing something, wouldn't she? And if she did, i'm sure she would've told Harry or someone by now, especially when it could help save the world from evil Voldie shorts.

Actually, Wimsey is incorrect about the diary. Harry says himself at the end of COS that the diary is useless - no memory to get out of it anymore. Destroying the Horcrux destroyed everything. He was worried about it because they had no way to prove what the diary was - that it had contained Riddle's memory.

Riddle was looking for a way to control another student - to re-open the chamber at a future date when he was no longer a student and wouldn't be suspected. From what Dumbledore tells Harry in HBP regarding the diary, the reason it worked the way it did was because it was a Horcrux - it was more than a Horcrux because it had a memory stored in it but it was the fact that it was a Horcrux that allowed Ginny to be controlled. The diary was made into a Horcrux at the same time the memories were stored in it - it is the only Horcrux that had a purpose beyond storing a piece of Voldemort's soul and the intended purpose required it to be a Horcrux.
Exactly. And since it's been destroyed, Ginny's shown no clue or hint that it had anything significant in it, and it was described as "useless" I don't think it will come to be any use in book seven.

Does the diary really have anything to do with Harry and Ginny's future together? I think we've strayed off topic a bit, but, never mind that. I'm not sure anything survived the basilisk venom. Probably, if you poured basilisk venom into a pensieve, it would be destroyed.

I know it seems a bit off topic but we're discussing what Ginny's role could be for book 7 - that will play into how and when she and Harry get back together.

I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on the issue though and just discuss what Ginny's role directly with the understanding that we believe different things regarding the diary and whether or not the trio will return to school.

Keeping it directly to Ginny - I think Ginny learned something about Riddle during that year she talked to him through the diary. This is going to be some small, seemingly insignificant detail. Maybe he told her of an outing he took while a child at the orphanage at a location other than the cave. Maybe he mentioned a room in Hogwarts - possibly the Room of Requirement or just a "room where you could hide things". Something small that, by itself, doesn't appear to mean anything but, when Harry learns of it, he will put it together with what he knows and it will end up being important. I think this will be Ginny's only contribution to the search for the Horcruxes.

I do believe the trio will return to school and that is when Harry and Ginny could possibly get back together or at least start along that path - similar to HBP with Harry debating with himself - "should I or shouldn't I?".

It will be at the end of the school year - as in the previous books - that the choices will come in. They will find the Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts - the Room of Requirement or the Chamber of Secrets being the most likely hiding places for one - and they will have to make a decision. Are they ready for the final battle? Nagini is the final Horcrux but going after her means going directly into the final battle. Harry will want to keep Ginny out of it but won't be able to. She will either refuse to be left out or she will follow them. The final battle will be where Ginny's major contribution comes in.

It will be at the end of the school year - as in the previous books - that the choices will come in. They will find the Horcrux hidden at Hogwarts - the Room of Requirement or the Chamber of Secrets being the most likely hiding places for one - and they will have to make a decision. Are they ready for the final battle? Nagini is the final Horcrux but going after her means going directly into the final battle. Harry will want to keep Ginny out of it but won't be able to. She will either refuse to be left out or she will follow them. The final battle will be where Ginny's major contribution comes in.

Agree with Horcrux being in Room of Requirement. Disagree with one being in Chamber of Secrets.

I just think that if The Chamber was only significant for the Diary, and that's the only purpose it will serve in this series. It's no longer useful.

I never thought of Ginny getting any key information about the Diary. I got the idea that she just wrote in it to get out her feelings about school, life, and Harry, like a normal girl (It was her first year, she didn't really have any friends). But the possibility that she might've gotten information from Voldemort seems slim to me. I highly doubt that he would let any of his plans slip away to an unknowing eleven year old. And even if he was planning to, he'd probably realize that it could come back to him. Well, at least I HOPE he wasn't that stupid.

True... ugh! You guys confuse me!!!!!!!!! :lol:

But she would've remembered seeing something, wouldn't she? And if she did, i'm sure she would've told Harry or someone by now, especially when it could help save the world from evil Voldie shorts.

Exactly. And since it's been destroyed, Ginny's shown no clue or hint that it had anything significant in it, and it was described as "useless" I don't think it will come to be any use in book seven.

Ginny hasn't really shared her experience with the diary with anyone - not the details - that we know of. As far as we know, she has never talked about it. We aren't saying that 16 year old Riddle told her of his plans to make Horcruxes so he couldn't be killed and/or that he gave her a map to where they are all hidden. What we are saying is that it is possible that, in his efforts to gain her trust and entice her to keep using the diary, he may have told her some small detail that he thought was unimportant - a place he went as a child or something like that. At 16, he would not have realized that he was revealing a hiding place. When he was older and chose that hiding place, he would not know that the memory he stored in the diary would tell anyone about it - the diary had not been used at that point and I doubt he would know what it revealed even while it was being used because he is disconnected from his Horcruxes. Like the Marauder's map, the diary "thought" for itself.

Agree with Horcrux being in Room of Requirement. Disagree with one being in Chamber of Secrets.

I just think that if The Chamber was only significant for the Diary, and that's the only purpose it will serve in this series. It's no longer useful.

I think the Room of Requirment is the most likely hiding spot as well. The chamber has a small possibility for being a hiding place - it is called the Chamber of Secrets - pleural - indicating that there is another secret contained in it.

I do wonder about that a lot. JK has reminded us of Ginny's possession for the past two books and how she hasn't forgotten a thing. The diary was also a horcrux. I think Ginny may know a lot more than we do. She had that diary and spoke to Tom Riddle through it for almost an entire year.
She may prove instrumental in locating a horcrux or where Tom may have possibly hid one.

I agree. When Riddle was giving Harry the typical speech where the villain reveals his true identity, he told him in order for Ginny to spill out her secrets, he reciprocated by sharing some of his own secrets with her. He might've given out crucial information about himself when he confided in her and that could play a part in the mission.

I agree Riddle could have shared some information about the whereabouts of other Horcruxes or his plans for the future and where he'd like to go or whatever, as Ginny only exchanged with the 16 year old Riddle...

As for Harry and Ginny, I thought it was very strange the way Ginny accepted so quickly what Harry had to do. It just didn't feel right for Ginny's character to just say "ok" and be on her way. She's a strong and determined character, I was surprised she didn't tell Harry to forget it and she'd go with him to fight, Hermione and Ron did, didn't they? I think Ginny will see Harry again at Bill's wedding and have prepared something like a team to help Harry or something. (Although that might just be wishful thinking...)

I agree Riddle could have shared some information about the whereabouts of other Horcruxes or his plans for the future and where he'd like to go or whatever, as Ginny only exchanged with the 16 year old Riddle...

As for Harry and Ginny, I thought it was very strange the way Ginny accepted so quickly what Harry had to do. It just didn't feel right for Ginny's character to just say "ok" and be on her way. She's a strong and determined character, I was surprised she didn't tell Harry to forget it and she'd go with him to fight, Hermione and Ron did, didn't they? I think Ginny will see Harry again at Bill's wedding and have prepared something like a team to help Harry or something. (Although that might just be wishful thinking...)

Well, Harry did walk away before Ginny was done talking. And she doesn't know about the Horcruxes or that he is going to go off and search for them. Ron and Hermione had more knowledge to go on - he told them exactly what he was going to do and they told him they would be with him no matter what. Harry never gave Ginny that opportunity.

I think Ginny will finish what she was saying at the funeral - probably at the wedding. She will give Harry a bit of space but, being a smart girl, she will figure out that something is up. The trio may even come up with some story to cover them leaving to go off on the search and she will figure out that they are up to something.

I don't think she will end up going with them but I think that she will tell Harry that she is not going to give up on him and she will be there for him and help him in any way that she can. At this point, I think that it's possible that Harry could give her the other mirror so that they can communicate safely while the trio is gone.

As for Harry and Ginny, I thought it was very strange the way Ginny accepted so quickly what Harry had to do. It just didn't feel right for Ginny's character to just say "ok" and be on her way. She's a strong and determined character, I was surprised she didn't tell Harry to forget it and she'd go with him to fight, Hermione and Ron did, didn't they? I think Ginny will see Harry again at Bill's wedding and have prepared something like a team to help Harry or something. (Although that might just be wishful thinking...)

But that's just it. It's not in Ginny's character to let the love of her life walk away from her because of a reason that is completely wrong and foolish. She couldn't have possibly started an argument on the matter because it wasn't the right time or place. Losing a loved one, especially someone who a person is romantically involved with, can have a different level of pain in comparison to other people he/she cares about. Ginny wanted to be by Harry's side but he wouldn't let her and yet again, Harry underestimation of a person who can help him and give him the support he needs, kicked in, and in time, he will realize what Ginny is capable of.

I see what you're saying, but I didn't feel like their separation was the loss of a loved one. Harry isn't dead, and I believe Ginny's character would go to any means to make sure she can help him survive to be with him. I agree she might finish what she was saying at the wedding, but she might also follow ROn and Hermione when they go with Harry to Godric's Hollow. I don't think she would just give up and not ask Ron every question she could think of.

I see what you're saying, but I didn't feel like their separation was the loss of a loved one. Harry isn't dead, and I believe Ginny's character would go to any means to make sure she can help him survive to be with him. I agree she might finish what she was saying at the wedding, but she might also follow ROn and Hermione when they go with Harry to Godric's Hollow. I don't think she would just give up and not ask Ron every question she could think of.


Okay, I gotcha now. I agree with that. I don't think Ginny is just gonna give up and let it go either. I think she is going to try to talk to Harry again and finish what she was saying at the funeral. I also think Harry is going to be stubborn on this issue for a while because he wants to protect Ginny. At that point, I think Ginny will go to Ron and Hermione. Hermione has given her good advice in the past and she and Ron are close to Harry and know what is going on. It is also possible that Ginny will just follow them when they leave - refusing to be left behind.

Maybe Ginny thinks that Harry is going through a period where he needs time away from Ginny, because of Dumbledores death. Does this make scense? So she may be giving Harry time before Harry wants to be with her again.

It's a bit like SpiderMan now isn't it? He tells her he can't be with him because he has a job to do and he couldn't bear for her to be in danger because of him, but the girl always comes back (notice the similarity of red hair in both cases) I also think Ginny's giving Harry time to think and deal with everything that's going on, but I believe Ginny might be working a little on her own and trying to find ways to help Harry. She just took it too well for it to be the end...

It is a bit like spiderman, and hopefully Harry and Ginny will betogether. Oh and Audreetee I love your sig.

It is a bit like spiderman, and hopefully Harry and Ginny will betogether. Oh and Audreetee I love your sig.

thankies!

I just hope Ginny never says "Go get 'em Tiger" :lol:

I hope Ginny never says that either.:lol:

It's a bit like SpiderMan now isn't it? He tells her he can't be with him because he has a job to do and he couldn't bear for her to be in danger because of him, but the girl always comes back (notice the similarity of red hair in both cases) I also think Ginny's giving Harry time to think and deal with everything that's going on, but I believe Ginny might be working a little on her own and trying to find ways to help Harry. She just took it too well for it to be the end... But Spiderman is also a bit like other stories as well. It's a hero thing apparently :rolleyes: (so annoying - apparently love is extremely distracting when saving the world). JK said Ginny had her own journey. Maybe it's not yet complete and trekking with Harry all over the place would spoil her plot line. I think there's more for Ginny to do yet and she doesn't need to follow Harry to do it.

Other topic, but I think someone Harry may trust is a traitor and it will come in handy that he has decided to tell no one but R/H about the prophecy and the Horcruxes as per Dumbledore's instruction.

Cheers :tu:

I really hope that no one betrays Harry. I think that would be a huge blow.

But Spiderman is also a bit like other stories as well. It's a hero thing apparently :rolleyes: (so annoying - apparently love is extremely distracting when saving the world). JK said Ginny had her own journey. Maybe it's not yet complete and trekking with Harry all over the place would spoil her plot line. I think there's more for Ginny to do yet and she doesn't need to follow Harry to do it.

Other topic, but I think someone Harry may trust is a traitor and it will come in handy that he has decided to tell no one but R/H about the prophecy and the Horcruxes as per Dumbledore's instruction.

Cheers :tu:

Yeah, the "hero complex" is rather annoying - particularly from the female perspective. ;)

I think it was a wise decision that only the trio knows about the Horcruxes as well. The more people that know a secret, the greater the odds that secret will be revealed.

BTW, I absolutely love your new sig and avatar! :drool:

Yeah, the "hero complex" is rather annoying - particularly from the female perspective. ;)

I think it was a wise decision that only the trio knows about the Horcruxes as well. The more people that know a secret, the greater the odds that secret will be revealed.

BTW, I absolutely love your new sig and avatar! :drool:

Yes, I agree with this. (However, I am female, and the whole hero complex didn't annoy me in the slightest----I thought it was a very noble thing for Harry to do, it showed how much he cared about her. :)) I think that Harry is like others have said, is going on Dumbledore's orders, he is still "Dumbledore's man through and through", and this means I think, for the time being keeping the horcruxes and such within the trio. Perhaps Ginny will find out later, but only time will tell. As I read the last chapter of HBP, and Harry broke it off with Ginny, it seemed to me as if, he was planning too break up with her ever since Dumbledore died. What would have been interesting is what would have happened if Dumbledore didn't die?? Would he still be going out with Ginny now?? Probably. (Unless of course, he went on orders from Dumbledore to go on a horcrux search...then he would probably try to protect Ginny from harm by joining them---but that doesn't necesarily mean they would have broken it off).

Yes, I agree with this. (However, I am female, and the whole hero complex didn't annoy me in the slightest----I thought it was a very noble thing for Harry to do, it showed how much he cared about her. :)) I think that Harry is like others have said, is going on Dumbledore's orders, he is still "Dumbledore's man through and through", and this means I think, for the time being keeping the horcruxes and such within the trio. Perhaps Ginny will find out later, but only time will tell. As I read the last chapter of HBP, and Harry broke it off with Ginny, it seemed to me as if, he was planning too break up with her ever since Dumbledore died. What would have been interesting is what would have happened if Dumbledore didn't die?? Would he still be going out with Ginny now?? Probably. (Unless of course, he went on orders from Dumbledore to go on a horcrux search...then he would probably try to protect Ginny from harm by joining them---but that doesn't necesarily mean they would have broken it off).

I didn't mean annoyed at Harry - he is being foolish but his heart is in the right place. I meant annoying in general with the hero must leave the girl behind standard plot device - portraying the girlfriend as weak and needing protection. And no, I'm not accusing Jo of that. I fully believe Ginny is going to stand up for herself. I was just speaking in general terms regarding that particular plot device.

I didn't mean annoyed at Harry - he is being foolish but his heart is in the right place. I meant annoying in general with the hero must leave the girl behind standard plot device - portraying the girlfriend as weak and needing protection. And no, I'm not accusing Jo of that. I fully believe Ginny is going to stand up for herself. I was just speaking in general terms regarding that particular plot device.

Its okay, I knew what you meant :). I understand what you are saying though too, I mean sometimes the "hero" complex is used alot throughout various pieces of literature, and it is usually to protect a loved one from danger, Hermione pointed this out to Harry in OOtP when Harry saw Sirius's body in the Minstry of Magic. I just meant too that I didn't find it that bad that Harry broke up with her to protect her, I mean, it was done for a reason I think. Sure, she is in danger with our without Harry (she is a Weasley--I think to a degree, they are all in danger).

thankies!

I just hope Ginny never says "Go get 'em Tiger" :lol:

:lol: or 'Go out there and fight with all you've got'


I hate lines like that in movies mostly.

This would be a Mafalda-esque plothole, if Ginny somehow knows something. How could she know something that Dumbledore did not? The idea that Riddle would tell her anything is far-fetched: Voldemort is incredibly secretive. Indeed, we have no reason to think that he really had any clear idea about Horcruxes when he wrote the Diary: remember, he did not even get confirmation of their existence or learn how they could be made until the next year.

Also, this would reduce Ginny to all plot and no story. In a story about Choices and Motivations, and where love is such an important aspect of motivation, having Ginny be nothing but a plot point would seriously undermine the story. Harry's girlfriend has to be thematic herself, not just an item.


I enjoy the back and forth on this thread, so I hope no-one takes any comments personally. There have been many good thoughts. In response to the above comments, I'm going to disagree, agree, agree again, and disagree.

1. In COS, Ginny is talking to Riddle for months. I think it's quite possible that he revealed a few things that give clues towards the identification and/or location of Horcruxes. After all, Riddle didn't know what he would be doing in the future. Futhermore, Riddle expected Ginny to die, so from his standpoint it wouldn't matter what she knew.

To reinforce the point, at one point, Riddle told Harry:
"I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." -- not just his soul, but secrets.

It certainly sounds like Riddle was telling Ginny secrets. Harry never repeated this comment by Riddle to anyone else, not even Dumbledore. At the time, Harry was concerned about protecting Ginny from embaressment and punishment, and said as little as possible about Ginny's roles, and Dumbledore was agreeable.

2. Agreed - an extremely important point - I agree that choices are a major theme, a very important one. I believe Dumbledore uses the phrase, "It's important that we choose to do the right thing, not the easy thing."

3. Agreed - I also agree that giving Ginny a major role in the last book based only on her experience in COS would be rather weak plot device, and diminish Ginny's role as an important person based on her own abilities. However ....

4. I believe that Ginny will have more than one role in the last book; if she has some useful information from COS, that will not be her only role; she will have important decisions to make in other respects.

5. Ginny's potential information from COS does create a major choice; it's just that it's not Ginny who has to make a choice. It's Harry who has to make an important choice. No matter what Ginny knows from COS, it is not going to be of any value if she doesn't know what Harry is seeking. At the end of HBP, Harry doesn't want to even be seen with Ginny for fear of exposing her to danger. I think that's rather silly since they've already been seen, and all of the Weasleys are big targets anyways.

But -- in this "protect Ginny mode", Harry will certainly not want to tell Ginny anything about Horcruxes. However, if Ginny does have valuable information Harry will only be able to get it if she understands the bigger picture. This would mean revealing everything to Ginny. That would involve Ginny in a central way that surely would create more danger for Ginny. But it's the only way that Harry could access the information. A very difficult choice for Harry. No doubt he will eventually make the right choice if this really is a choice he has to make.

For whatever it's worth, some of the points I've made here are a major component of an editorial I've submitted. It runs over 4 pages single spaced, so I'm not going to get any futher into it here. But it might eventually show up, who knows.

I enjoy the back and forth on this thread, so I hope no-one takes any comments personally. There have been many good thoughts. In response to the above comments, I'm going to disagree, agree, agree again, and disagree.

1. In COS, Ginny is talking to Riddle for months. I think it's quite possible that he revealed a few things that give clues towards the identification and/or location of Horcruxes. After all, Riddle didn't know what he would be doing in the future. Futhermore, Riddle expected Ginny to die, so from his standpoint it wouldn't matter what she knew.

To reinforce the point, at one point, Riddle told Harry:
"I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." -- not just his soul, but secrets.

It certainly sounds like Riddle was telling Ginny secrets. Harry never repeated this comment by Riddle to anyone else, not even Dumbledore. At the time, Harry was concerned about protecting Ginny from embaressment and punishment, and said as little as possible about Ginny's roles, and Dumbledore was agreeable.

2. Agreed - an extremely important point - I agree that choices are a major theme, a very important one. I believe Dumbledore uses the phrase, "It's important that we choose to do the right thing, not the easy thing."

3. Agreed - I also agree that giving Ginny a major role in the last book based only on her experience in COS would be rather weak plot device, and diminish Ginny's role as an important person based on her own abilities. However ....

4. I believe that Ginny will have more than one role in the last book; if she has some useful information from COS, that will not be her only role; she will have important decisions to make in other respects.

5. Ginny's potential information from COS does create a major choice; it's just that it's not Ginny who has to make a choice. It's Harry who has to make an important choice. No matter what Ginny knows from COS, it is not going to be of any value if she doesn't know what Harry is seeking. At the end of HBP, Harry doesn't want to even be seen with Ginny for fear of exposing her to danger. I think that's rather silly since they've already been seen, and all of the Weasleys are big targets anyways.

But -- in this "protect Ginny mode", Harry will certainly not want to tell Ginny anything about Horcruxes. However, if Ginny does have valuable information Harry will only be able to get it if she understands the bigger picture. This would mean revealing everything to Ginny. That would involve Ginny in a central way that surely would create more danger for Ginny. But it's the only way that Harry could access the information. A very difficult choice for Harry. No doubt he will eventually make the right choice if this really is a choice he has to make.

For whatever it's worth, some of the points I've made here are a major component of an editorial I've submitted. It runs over 4 pages single spaced, so I'm not going to get any futher into it here. But it might eventually show up, who knows.

I agree for the most part. I don't think Harry has to tell Ginny about the Horcruxes to find out what she knows though. I'm thinking that Ginny is not going to be part of the intitial search. We need a way for her to be brought back into the story. So here's what I'm picturing.

The trio will realize that R.A.B. is Regulus and make the connection to the locket at Grimmauld Place - they will either verify that it was destroyed as a Horcrux or destroy it. Then they will begin searching for Hufflepuff's cup and I believe it is possible that Dumbledore will have left Harry things to help them find this one and they will destroy it. Two down - two to go.

They will return to the Burrow because it is getting close to September 1st and they have to let everyone know that they aren't planning to return to Hogwarts. They also need to rest and plan their next move - getting into the tricky part because they have no idea what the third Horcrux is and they have to find and destroy it before they go after Nagini.

While at the Burrow, Ginny will talk to Harry again. The discussion will be serious - regarding their relationship and he will reiterate why he feels they can't be together and so on. Ginny will tell him why she doesn't agree and she will start talking about the diary and what happened in COS. She's never really talked about it or told anyone the details before. As she is talking, she reveals some of the things that Riddle told her when she was writing in the diary - saying how foolish she feels because she trusted him just because of a few pretty words and told her secrets. Harry goes on the alert - what secrets? She tells him - pure invention and speculation here - one of the secrets was that there was a room in the castle where you could hide things - a hidden room. Harry makes the connection - Riddle knew about the Room of Requirement and knew that it could be used and had been used as a hiding place.

Now, Harry has a choice to make. Should he tell Ginny about the Horcruxes? Does she know anything else that could help them? What other secrets could Riddle have told her?

It brings Ginny back into the story - gives her a small part in the Horcrux hunt and leads to the realization that the third Horcrux is at Hogwarts.

I really hopes that Ginny helps Harry, in some way shaped or form, even if it is a memory of her, maybe even from Billy and Fluer's wedding.

Yes, I agree with this. (However, I am female, and the whole hero complex didn't annoy me in the slightest----I thought it was a very noble thing for Harry to do, it showed how much he cared about her. :)) I think that Harry is like others have said, is going on Dumbledore's orders, he is still "Dumbledore's man through and through", and this means I think, for the time being keeping the horcruxes and such within the trio. Perhaps Ginny will find out later, but only time will tell. As I read the last chapter of HBP, and Harry broke it off with Ginny, it seemed to me as if, he was planning too break up with her ever since Dumbledore died. What would have been interesting is what would have happened if Dumbledore didn't die?? Would he still be going out with Ginny now?? Probably. (Unless of course, he went on orders from Dumbledore to go on a horcrux search...then he would probably try to protect Ginny from harm by joining them---but that doesn't necesarily mean they would have broken it off).

Yes Harry's act was very noble, something which was to be expected, but that doesn't stop it from being foolish and pointless. And if Dumbledore didn't die, Harry and Ginny would've definitely still been together. They had no reason to break it off because they made each other immensely happy and Harry had said that he wished he had asked her sooner so that they could've been together for months and years - one of my favorite lines in the books :love:

I so wish that Harry did not break up with Ginny. I think Harry is making a huge mistake. I sort of wish that Dumbledore told Harry that it would be ok to tell Ginny about the Horcrux, especially since Ginny and the whole diary thing.

I agree that Ginny has heard important pieces of information but she was "absent-minded".She said that she didn't remember anything when she was herself again. It seems like she learned what she has done afterwards. However, perharps a good bit of Occlumency will deal with that.

As for their common future, I'm convinced that they will all do a part of the Hunt during sommer holidays, then come back in Hogwarts. Harry will probably have a free access to the director office to chat with Dumbledore and he will have some runs out of Hogwarts to check what he guessed/found out.
After the final battle, Harry will surely live with Ginny and I can't help thinking he will work as the DADA teacher because the magical world won't need so qualified Aurors after the DE and Voldie's fall.
However, it's no Happy End. One of the trio will probably die (I guess Ron).

I agree and her knowing information that could help them - seemingly unimportant details given to her by Riddle - would accomplish that quite nicely.
I also agree with this. I think that perhaps Tom Riddle gave Ginny some information during this time when she was wrting in the diary. Perhaps the information given to Ginny was not meant to be given to her, but given to her nonetheless. Perhaps Ginny never thought of it important before, but as I don't believe Harry will be dating Ginny during the middle/ beginning of the book (I firmly believe that he will defeat Voldemort first, as the prophecy stated, so he can have some normalacy of life), I still think Ginny will help from back at Hogwarts if it re-opens, and perhaps she will remeber something said by Tom Riddle back in the diary that could be proven important. I think she will still keep in contact with Harry, since they don't seem to be bitter about it, and it wasn't a typical "I think it would be better if we see other people" sort of break-up, it was a mere attempt for Harry to protect Ginny from harm, the same way he tried to protect Ron and Hermione by not having them come along (but that failed).
I do wonder about that a lot. JK has reminded us of Ginny's possession for the past two books and how she hasn't forgotten a thing. The diary was also a horcrux. I think Ginny may know a lot more than we do. She had that diary and spoke to Tom Riddle through it for almost an entire year.
She may prove instrumental in locating a horcrux or where Tom may have possibly hid one.


Cheers :tu:
I've often wondered if Tom's little speech in the Chamber had any long term significance.
"If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted...I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..."
Highlight mine.

I think that Tom the memory got to the stage in his possession of Ginny that he wasn't in the least bit concerned about what information he was giving her, he was that confident that she would eventually be dead and gone that he may well have let slip some quite critical information to her that may well only come to light when she has the full story of just what Harry needs to accomplish. I think it's almost a certainty that Ginny will be crucial in the destruction of at least one horcrux, possibly more, because of her insight into Voldemort's character.

Chamber of Secrets Bloomsbury Edition - P 228"If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted...I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..."
you've got an excellent point. She might have a vague memory on some kind of split soul.

I so wish that Harry did not break up with Ginny. I think Harry is making a huge mistake. I sort of wish that Dumbledore told Harry that it would be ok to tell Ginny about the Horcrux, especially since Ginny and the whole diary thing.

One doesn't know for sure, but my guess is that if he had lived longer, Dumbledore would have told Harry to have confidence in Ginny and share information. The quote below is from a time before Harry and Ginny had any strong connection - but I think that the underlying message would now apply to Ginny as well as Ron and Hermione.

I particularly like the line:
"As you so rightly said, Sirius would not have wanted you to shut yourself away.”
What Harry is doing with Ginny is essentially shutting himself away from her.

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HBP, p. 78: Dumbledore: “Now, I think I am correct in saying that you have not told anybody that you know what the prophecy said?” “No,” said Harry. “A wise decision on the whole,” said Dumbledore. “Although I think you ought to relax it in favor of you friends, Mr. Ronald Weasley and Miss Hermione Granger. Yes,” he continued, when Harry looked startled, “I think they ought to know. You do them a disservice by not confiding something this important to them.” (Harry:) “I didn’t want ---“ “---to worry or frighten them?” said Dumbledore, surveying Harry over the top of his half-moon spectacles. “Or perhaps, to confess that you yourself are worried and frightened? You need your friends, Harry. As you so rightly said, Sirius would not have wanted you to shut yourself away.”

One doesn't know for sure, but my guess is that if he had lived longer, Dumbledore would have told Harry to have confidence in Ginny and share information. The quote below is from a time before Harry and Ginny had any strong connection - but I think that the underlying message would now apply to Ginny as well as Ron and Hermione.

I particularly like the line:
"As you so rightly said, Sirius would not have wanted you to shut yourself away.”
What Harry is doing with Ginny is essentially shutting himself away from her.

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HBP, p. 78: Dumbledore: “Now, I think I am correct in saying that you have not told anybody that you know what the prophecy said?” “No,” said Harry. “A wise decision on the whole,” said Dumbledore. “Although I think you ought to relax it in favor of you friends, Mr. Ronald Weasley and Miss Hermione Granger. Yes,” he continued, when Harry looked startled, “I think they ought to know. You do them a disservice by not confiding something this important to them.” (Harry:) “I didn’t want ---“ “---to worry or frighten them?” said Dumbledore, surveying Harry over the top of his half-moon spectacles. “Or perhaps, to confess that you yourself are worried and frightened? You need your friends, Harry. As you so rightly said, Sirius would not have wanted you to shut yourself away.”

I agree. Plus you have all that at the end when Mrs. Weasley tells Lupin that Dumbledore would have wanted there to be more love in the world. :love:

Would Harry relize that him being with Ginny can help him, or will he be really thick.

Yes Harry's act was very noble, something which was to be expected, but that doesn't stop it from being foolish and pointless. And if Dumbledore didn't die, Harry and Ginny would've definitely still been together. They had no reason to break it off because they made each other immensely happy and Harry had said that he wished he had asked her sooner so that they could've been together for months and years - one of my favorite lines in the books :love:

I believe that it could be flawed in the reasoning that Ginny will be safe if they are apart, which I don't think it true. I think Ginny is not safe either way, along with most of the Order, and the people associated with it. I believe JKR had the Harry and Ginny realationship broken up for a reason though, or else it probably wouldn't have been done, since this series isn't about Harry's rommance with Ginny, not in the forefront at least.

Yeah, the "hero complex" is rather annoying - particularly from the female perspective. ;)

I think it was a wise decision that only the trio knows about the Horcruxes as well. The more people that know a secret, the greater the odds that secret will be revealed. The thing about this lone hero complex that these star guys have is that in the end, it almost always seems as if it would have been better and spared them a lot of pain and heartache if they had just not broken up in the first place:

1. They usually can't handle it
2. Said girl becomes ripe for kidnapping by *** evol
3. The girl follows and gets into some trouble and the guy has to rescue her

Personally, I hope none of these happen but instead Ginny somehow rescues him. It would be kind of nice for a change.

BTW, I absolutely love your new sig and avatar! :drool: Thanks :D

I've often wondered if Tom's little speech in the Chamber had any long term significance.
"If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted...I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..."
Highlight mine.

I think that Tom the memory got to the stage in his possession of Ginny that he wasn't in the least bit concerned about what information he was giving her, he was that confident that she would eventually be dead and gone that he may well have let slip some quite critical information to her that may well only come to light when she has the full story of just what Harry needs to accomplish. I think it's almost a certainty that Ginny will be crucial in the destruction of at least one horcrux, possibly more, because of her insight into Voldemort's character. That is exactly what I'm saying, Deevo. That little line "a few of my secrets" has been bugging me since reading HBP. Why didn't he just say he listened to her and talked to her. He told her some of his secrets. I'm almost 100% positive Ginny has information that would be useful to Harry but she probably does not realise as yet. Tom Riddle dabbled a lot into the dark arts by the time he stored his sixteen year old self in that diary and he killed his parents and made his first horcrux at 16 as well.

Cheers :tu:

He told her some of his secrets. I'm almost 100% positive Ginny has information that would be useful to Harry but she probably does not realise as yet. Tom Riddle dabbled a lot into the dark arts by the time he stored his sixteen year old self in that diary and he killed his parents and made his first horcrux at 16 as well.

Cheers :tu:

I also think Ginny knows more than everyone thinks she does. No one ever even bothered to question her about Tom the memory, even Dumbledore didn't question her very much even though she could be a source of many informations no one else but Riddle and now her know about.

I think if Ginny knew about the Horcruxes, some things might come to mind, and I hope that Harry will realise in time that Ginny is more useful than just a burden that might be added if she were kidnapped. In fact, Ginny might even be kidnapped because she knows too much about Voldemort. If LV finds out Harry or someone else has destroyed horcruxes, he might become suspicious and try to eliminate Ginny because she knows too much, hence the MaryJane/ SpiderMan resemblance again...

The thing about this lone hero complex that these star guys have is that in the end, it almost always seems as if it would have been better and spared them a lot of pain and heartache if they had just not broken up in the first place:

1. They usually can't handle it
2. Said girl becomes ripe for kidnapping by *** evol
3. The girl follows and gets into some trouble and the guy has to rescue her

Personally, I hope none of these happen but instead Ginny somehow rescues him. It would be kind of nice for a change.

Exactly. It is a standard plot device to stretch out the tension in the relationship - the "will they or won't they" factor so to speak. With Ginny's personality, I think we are looking at some version of option #3. When they head off to destroy Nagini (the final Horcrux) and the final battle, Ginny is going to follow them. The fact that Harry tried to leave her behind is going to come back and bite him in the butt somehow. She will either get captured and he has to rescue her OR she will get captured but escape and then he gets captured when he shows up to rescue her and she has to come back and rescue him.

That is exactly what I'm saying, Deevo. That little line "a few of my secrets" has been bugging me since reading HBP. Why didn't he just say he listened to her and talked to her. He told her some of his secrets. I'm almost 100% positive Ginny has information that would be useful to Harry but she probably does not realise as yet. Tom Riddle dabbled a lot into the dark arts by the time he stored his sixteen year old self in that diary and he killed his parents and made his first horcrux at 16 as well.

Cheers :tu:

Completely agree. :agree: Ginny knows something. I don't think it is something huge but something small - some tiny detail, or details, that he told her believing them to be unimportant. The question is how will Harry find this out? I think this will be the turning point in their relationship. Somehow, they will end up having a serious conversation and Ginny will finally talk about the diary and what happened - leading Harry to realize that she knows important information that could help them. He will have to decide what is more important - his foolishly noble efforts to protect her or the fight against Voldemort. He is going to have to choose between what is right and what is easy.

He will have to decide what is more important - his foolishly noble efforts to protect her or the fight against Voldemort. He is going to have to choose between what is right and what is easy.
:agree: I like that!

Exactly. It is a standard plot device to stretch out the tension in the relationship - the "will they or won't they" factor so to speak. With Ginny's personality, I think we are looking at some version of option #3. When they head off to destroy Nagini (the final Horcrux) and the final battle, Ginny is going to follow them. The fact that Harry tried to leave her behind is going to come back and bite him in the butt somehow. She will either get captured and he has to rescue her OR she will get captured but escape and then he gets captured when he shows up to rescue her and she has to come back and rescue him.

Completely agree. :agree: Ginny knows something. I don't think it is something huge but something small - some tiny detail, or details, that he told her believing them to be unimportant.The question is how will Harry find this out? I think this will be the turning point in their relationship. Somehow, they will end up having a serious conversation and Ginny will finally talk about the diary and what happened - leading Harry to realize that she knows important information that could help them. He will have to decide what is more important - his foolishly noble efforts to protect her or the fight against Voldemort. He is going to have to choose between what is right and what is easy.

I agree here too. I believe that Tom Riddle perhaps did tell her something that the 16 year old Tom Riddle wouldn't think would be important later on in life--but it turns out it was. Perhaps an item or a particular location that could be key in finding a hidden horcrux. I think Ginny will help in her own way, along with Neville and Luna, but I think too that Harry can have Ginny help him and Ron and Hermione without him getting back together with her, if they are truely friends and understand each other--which is what the text implies, it won't matter if they are not together for long, for they will still keep in contact (perhaps through Sirius's mirrors or whatnot), and will still be close.

JKR: I will say, that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy -

[All crack up]

JKR: - hints. ANVIL-sized, actually, hints, prior to this point. I certainly think even if subtle clues hadn't been picked up by the end of “Azkaban,” that by the time we hit Krum in Goblet...

But Ron — I had a lot of fun with that in this book. I really enjoyed writing the Ron/Lavender business, and the reason that was enjoyable was Ron up to this point has been quite immature compared to the other two and he kind of needed to make himself worthy of Hermione. Now, that didn't mean necessarily physical experience but he had to grow up emotionally and now he's taken a big step up. Because he's had the meaningless physical experience - let’s face it, his emotions were never deeply engaged with Lavender -

The above is a quote from the interview JK gave with the people from mugglenet and the leaky cauldron. I know what you are thinking "stupid girl, your in the harry/ginny thread not the hermione/ron thread," but i have a reason for this. Why did she only say "that's it isn't it - we know now its ron and hermione?" What is significant here is that, in response to a question about how much she enjoyed writing the romance in the book, she talks at great length about hermione and ron, and ignores/says nothing about harry and ginny. She never says they are going to end up together. I find it more odd because she does briefly mention harry, when emerson talks about harry/hermione shippers ...yet she never revisits the subject of harry ... she focuses on ron/hermione. ...are we sure that ginny and harry are going to end up together? (i am fully aware that i may not know about another interview or statement made by jk which is the same as the ron/hermione law she passed, in which case I will be quite happy to learn that its for certain that harry and ginny are going to be together. just a tad worried :scared: )

I think if Ginny knew about the Horcruxes, some things might come to mind, and I hope that Harry will realise in time that Ginny is more useful than just a burden that might be added if she were kidnapped. In fact, Ginny might even be kidnapped because she knows too much about Voldemort. If Voldemort finds out Harry or someone else has destroyed horcruxes, he might become suspicious and try to eliminate Ginny because she knows too much, hence the MaryJane/ SpiderMan resemblance again...

That is possible but since Ginny had been used as bait before, I can't see her being used to lure Harry again. Voldemort might send his Death Eaters to wipe out the Weasleys and one of them might die and Ginny might get severely injured. This is also parallel to the literary device that authors have used when the hero parts ways with his love interest, the woman gets injured and the hero goes running back to her.

The above is a quote from the interview JK gave with the people from mugglenet and the leaky cauldron. I know what you are thinking "stupid girl, your in the harry/ginny thread not the hermione/ron thread," but i have a reason for this. Why did she only say "that's it isn't it - we know now its ron and hermione?" What is significant here is that, in response to a question about how much she enjoyed writing the romance in the book, she talks at great length about hermione and ron, and ignores/says nothing about harry and ginny. She never says they are going to end up together. I find it more odd because she does briefly mention harry, when emerson talks about harry/hermione shippers ...yet she never revisits the subject of harry ... she focuses on ron/hermione. ...are we sure that ginny and harry are going to end up together? (i am fully aware that i may not know about another interview or statement made by jk which is the same as the ron/hermione law she passed, in which case I will be quite happy to learn that its for certain that harry and ginny are going to be together. just a tad worried )

Oh she talks loads about Harry and Ginny, almost as much as R/Hr. Here's that section:


MA: Did Ginny send Harry the valentine?

JKR: Yeah, bless her.

MA: Was it a Tom Riddle thing, or Ginny Weasley?

JKR: No, Ginny Weasley.

MA: Well, she got paid back for it.

JKR: [laughs] Eventually.

MA: I think you set that up from the train compartment scene [in book one], where he was watching — all the relationships, that scene probably set it up.

JKR: I think so. I hope so. So you liked Harry/Ginny, did you, when it happened?

ES: We've been waiting for this for years!

JKR: Oh, I'm so glad.

MA: Oh my gosh, that kiss!

JKR: Yeah.

ES: It actually materialized!

JKR: It actually happened, I know! I felt a little bit like that.

MA: Had you been trying to get them —

JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part.

ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can’t figure out what Emerson actually said here.]

JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.

One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.

MA: Does she have a larger importance; the Tom Riddle stufff, being the seventh girl —

JKR: The backstory with Ginny was, she was the first girl to arrive in the Weasley family in generations, but there's that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son, so that's why she's the seventh, because she is a gifted witch. I think you get hints of that, because she does some pretty impressive stuff here and there, and you'll see that again.

After all that she had said about Ginny being his ideal girl and talking about he character in general, I am positive that she will get them back together.

The above is a quote from the interview JK gave with the people from mugglenet and the leaky cauldron. I know what you are thinking "stupid girl, your in the harry/ginny thread not the hermione/ron thread," but i have a reason for this. Why did she only say "that's it isn't it - we know now its ron and hermione?" What is significant here is that, in response to a question about how much she enjoyed writing the romance in the book, she talks at great length about hermione and ron, and ignores/says nothing about harry and ginny. She never says they are going to end up together. I find it more odd because she does briefly mention harry, when emerson talks about harry/hermione shippers ...yet she never revisits the subject of harry ... she focuses on ron/hermione. ...are we sure that ginny and harry are going to end up together? (i am fully aware that i may not know about another interview or statement made by jk which is the same as the ron/hermione law she passed, in which case I will be quite happy to learn that its for certain that harry and ginny are going to be together. just a tad worried :scared: )
I still beleive that they will get together, weather before or after voldermort dies remains to be seen. We have seen evidence that ginny is powerful (I wont argue this point) and I beleive she will play a big roll in the 7th book. I think she will be there when harry faces voldermort, and maby even help him defeat Snape (dirty rotten git). That would make me feel alot better...

The above is a quote from the interview JK gave with the people from mugglenet and the leaky cauldron. I know what you are thinking "stupid girl, your in the harry/ginny thread not the hermione/ron thread," but i have a reason for this. Why did she only say "that's it isn't it - we know now its ron and hermione?" What is significant here is that, in response to a question about how much she enjoyed writing the romance in the book, she talks at great length about hermione and ron, and ignores/says nothing about harry and ginny. She never says they are going to end up together. I find it more odd because she does briefly mention harry, when emerson talks about harry/hermione shippers ...yet she never revisits the subject of harry ... she focuses on ron/hermione. ...are we sure that ginny and harry are going to end up together? (i am fully aware that i may not know about another interview or statement made by jk which is the same as the ron/hermione law she passed, in which case I will be quite happy to learn that its for certain that harry and ginny are going to be together. just a tad worried :scared: )

Jo seems to avoid answering anything involving Harry's future. She hasn't talked about the future of Ron and Hermione either, because obviously that'd be giving away book 7 plot. But Harry's life post-HBP is going to be kept a big secret because if you think about it, the smallest fact could determine what happens to him, like if someone asks whether they'll end up together and she says yes, that right there probably means he'll live; if someone asks her if Harry will ever play Quidditch professionally and she says yes, again, giving away plot and the fact that he lives.

The above is a quote from the interview JK gave with the people from mugglenet and the leaky cauldron. I know what you are thinking "stupid girl, your in the harry/ginny thread not the hermione/ron thread," but i have a reason for this. Why did she only say "that's it isn't it - we know now its ron and hermione?" What is significant here is that, in response to a question about how much she enjoyed writing the romance in the book, she talks at great length about hermione and ron, and ignores/says nothing about harry and ginny. She never says they are going to end up together. I find it more odd because she does briefly mention harry, when emerson talks about harry/hermione shippers ...yet she never revisits the subject of harry ... she focuses on ron/hermione. ...are we sure that ginny and harry are going to end up together? (i am fully aware that i may not know about another interview or statement made by jk which is the same as the ron/hermione law she passed, in which case I will be quite happy to learn that its for certain that harry and ginny are going to be together. just a tad worried :scared: )

I thought Jo made it pretty clear. She did discuss Ginny and Harry quite extensively - the journey they had to go through individually as characters before they finally came together.

JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.

One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.

Ginny is his ideal girl. And the more I read that, the more it seems as though Jo is telling us that there is no other character who could handle being "The Chosen One's" girlfriend. Of course, I've seen it that way myself for a long time but Jo does seem to be confirming that here.

Also, you have to consider the fact that if Jo directly comes out and says "Yes, it's going to be Harry and Ginny" then she is pretty much telling us that Harry will live. She's not going to do that. She wants us to wonder whether or not Harry will live or die.

Actually Harry has been very protective to Ginny. Instinctively he excluded her from any conversation related to danger. In POA, he conveyed Mr. Weasley's warning that Sirius "would want to kill Harry" to Ron and Hermione, but not to Ginny. Thus, not until OOP did Ginny realize how much Harry had to suffer the ambience of threat (that Voldemort can anytime burst into his classroom) and not until OOP did Harry realize how much Ginny has in common with him in that condition (I forgot... Lucky you). However, once Harry enjoyed the comfort of Ginny's company in HBP, he returned to his protective mode. The less Ginny knows and involves, the less will she be in danger.
It's obvious that he would rather not to see Ginny die, than to see other friends die (Hermione, for instance), although Harry would never want to see any of his friends die. It's okay for Harry that Ron and Hermione accompany him to face perilous adventure, but it's not okay for Ginny to do the same.
His protective feeling to Ginny overrule any thought that Ginny may somehow contribute due to her experience. In OOP Harry had to be reminded coolly that Ginny can contribute. In Book 7 he will probably feel his regret and hopefully right on time before Harry has to face Voldemort.
I can't help thinking Jo Rowling's tale about her involvement in a discussion forum (probably COS) during the first three books. She was relieved that not many would guess the importance of a certain relationship. Back then, Harry and Ginny ship was in infancy and her shippers were categorized as random shooters (no real proof, just random guessing). I feel there is more to this pairing other than just a boy and a girl in love. Some important things may actually hidden in this relationship. Ginny's wand, for example, was never described (intentionally?), although according to Jo's website, it would be made of Hazel wood. We have discussed about information on Tom Riddle and the power of love. We haven't heard about Ginny's darkest secrets and her possible involvements with advanced magic (from the Twins). Ginny may not be superintelligent, but she is good at what she can do. We don't fully know what Ginny can do.

Okay seriously not trying to troll, but I was wondering if there are any others out there like me, and as there is no Romance as it relates to HBP I think this is the correct place for my thoughts…

I recently reread the series, as a whole not in parts, and fully knowing what was coming. And while it this lead to a lot of wonderful/ sad moments…I defy somebody not to at least sniff when Dumdledore's talking to Harry about death in SS/PS knowing how his murder will go down. Or not laugh with delight as Neville seems hesitant to enter into Luna's compartment on the train; and yet know that they will comfort each other when Dumdledore dies. However the reread also lead to dissatisfaction with how romance was handled in HBP. I hate to say it, as I was both a strong Heron and Chocolate shipper, but I feel that though JKR foreshadowed, and layered many plot lines the romance in HBP feels rushed and shallow, at least to me.

She had a lot to work off with both ships, and up until OotP I thought both ships where being portrayed beautifully; but then HBP it got heavy handed and felt forced. HBP has a different vibe then the other books, and I think part of it is that the stream lined wonderfully written main plot of the story is often forced in to the back ground for heavy handed romance.

Now when I first read HBP I thought who cares if the romance feels "rushed and shallow" the pairing I had been longing for came true. I breezed though the book that I had waited for two years, I was like a starving man at a feast. But on the reread, and reading more slowly, it really grated on my nerves, after all these romances aren't supposed to be the disposable high school romances; but rather romances that we are supposed to believe are love.

Anyway I was just wondering if there are any Chocolate Herons out there who felt a little put off by it all?

Well, Krumpet, the Ron/Lavendar thing irritated me very, very, very much the first time I read HBP because it interupted R/H but that was about it and the second time I read the book I was fine with it. I loved the romance in HBP very much and Ron and Hermione had some of their best (and worst) moments in that book especially after he got poisoned. I found Hermione's reaction very profound and sweet and their relationship post-poison was really lovely to read. Harry/Ginny did not seem as deep as Ron/Hermione until the end (when they broke up) but it was fun to read about Harry's monster and I expect more from that relationship in book 7.

Cheers :tu:

Okay seriously not trying to troll, but I was wondering if there are any others out there like me, and as there is no Romance as it relates to HBP I think this is the correct place for my thoughts…

I recently reread the series, as a whole not in parts, and fully knowing what was coming. And while it this lead to a lot of wonderful/ sad moments…I defy somebody not to at least sniff when Dumdledore's talking to Harry about death in SS/PS knowing how his murder will go down. Or not laugh with delight as Neville seems hesitant to enter into Luna's compartment on the train; and yet know that they will comfort each other when Dumdledore dies. However the reread also lead to dissatisfaction with how romance was handled in HBP. I hate to say it, as I was both a strong Heron and Chocolate shipper, but I feel that though JKR foreshadowed, and layered many plot lines the romance in HBP feels rushed and shallow, at least to me.

She had a lot to work off with both ships, and up until OotP I thought both ships where being portrayed beautifully; but then HBP it got heavy handed and felt forced. HBP has a different vibe then the other books, and I think part of it is that the stream lined wonderfully written main plot of the story is often forced in to the back ground for heavy handed romance.

Now when I first read HBP I thought who cares if the romance feels "rushed and shallow" the pairing I had been longing for came true. I breezed though the book that I had waited for two years, I was like a starving man at a feast. But on the reread, and reading more slowly, it really grated on my nerves, after all these romances aren't supposed to be the disposable high school romances; but rather romances that we are supposed to believe are love.

Anyway I was just wondering if there are any Chocolate Herons out there who felt a little put off by it all?

Excellent post!!:clap: (However I agree that Ron/Hermione interactions were great in this book). I actually, at the end of OOtP, I was a Harry and Ginny shipper, you could say. I really thought the development of Ginny was astonishing, and she really contrasted beautifully with Harry in OOtP, especially during his moments when he was upset, and the scene in the library, where Ginny offers to help Harry talk to Sirius. At the end of OOtP, I was actually hoping for a Harry and Luna or a Harry and Ginny rommance in HBP. But when book 6 came around, and Harry and Ginny happened in canon, I didn't like how it was protrayed as much as I thought it was leading up to it in OOtP. JKR is a brillant writer, and I loved her writing style in book 6, but I just (personally) didn't like the way Harry and Ginny's realationship was written, perhaps it was the "monster dancing the conga" in Harry's chest, or the whole "but she ditched Dean! He is your best mate!" dialouge .

Although there were some moments that I liked, like the funeral scene when Harry says how much he cared about her, and when Ginny was defending Harry by going with Luna to the Slug Club party. It was actually post HBP that I realized that I didn't like Harry and Ginny as well as a couple as well as I thought I would have from reading OOtP. It seems hard to imagine, from me not being an avid Harry and Ginny supporter, but a few years back I read Harry/Ginny fanfiction, and really loved it, and I always thought of it as a possibility that Harry would end up with Ginny. I realize that JKR will (probably) have Harry and Ginny as a reunited couple in book 7, and that is just fine with me, I want a happy ending. And maybe in book 7, if Harry and Ginny become canon again, I will see that realationship in the same light as I did first going into HBP.

Okay seriously not trying to troll, but I was wondering if there are any others out there like me, and as there is no Romance as it relates to HBP I think this is the correct place for my thoughts…

I recently reread the series, as a whole not in parts, and fully knowing what was coming. And while it this lead to a lot of wonderful/ sad moments…I defy somebody not to at least sniff when Dumdledore's talking to Harry about death in SS/PS knowing how his murder will go down. Or not laugh with delight as Neville seems hesitant to enter into Luna's compartment on the train; and yet know that they will comfort each other when Dumdledore dies. However the reread also lead to dissatisfaction with how romance was handled in HBP. I hate to say it, as I was both a strong Heron and Chocolate shipper, but I feel that though JKR foreshadowed, and layered many plot lines the romance in HBP feels rushed and shallow, at least to me.

She had a lot to work off with both ships, and up until OotP I thought both ships where being portrayed beautifully; but then HBP it got heavy handed and felt forced. HBP has a different vibe then the other books, and I think part of it is that the stream lined wonderfully written main plot of the story is often forced in to the back ground for heavy handed romance.

Now when I first read HBP I thought who cares if the romance feels "rushed and shallow" the pairing I had been longing for came true. I breezed though the book that I had waited for two years, I was like a starving man at a feast. But on the reread, and reading more slowly, it really grated on my nerves, after all these romances aren't supposed to be the disposable high school romances; but rather romances that we are supposed to believe are love.

Anyway I was just wondering if there are any Chocolate Herons out there who felt a little put off by it all?

I would have to say no because it all played out pretty much as I expected it to. Ron and Hermione's conflicts were obvious - Hermione had a previous "relationship" with Krum so it was a logical deduction that Ron would have some sort of relationship with another girl before they officially got together. Hermione's reactions in GOF and OOTP to other girls paying attention to Ron clearly indicated that she would become very angry when this occurred. This was a necessary step in Ron's emotional development. It was difficult to read in the sense that I really wanted it to end quickly but I understood that it was necessary for him to go through that so that made it easier.

Harry and Ginny also played out pretty much like I thought it would. Ginny had always been there in the background but she had always just been "Ron's little sister" in Harry's perception. This began to change in OOTP and it was a logical deduction - given Harry's personality - that this was going to be a sudden realization for him. It started off gradually with Harry being mildly annoyed when Ginny went to sit with Dean on the train and when she went to Hogsmeade with Dean but Harry didn't quite realize the significance of this. Then he saw her kissing Dean - a slap in the face, if you will. Much like Ron was hit over the head with the fact that Hermione was a girl and datable in GOF - Harry was hit over the head with the fact that Ginny was more than "Ron's little sister" and not just a kid. This is where the difference between Harry and Ron comes out. Harry is not hampered by the same insecurities as Ron - he had no doubt that Ginny had feelings for him - he knew that she had a crush on him before and believed, given the chance, that she would still have feelings for him. His only source of doubt was Ron's reaction - he didn't want to lose his best mate over it. That all happened pretty much as I expected it to.

I enjoyed the way that Jo injected a bit of humor into these situations - which could have come across very heavy handed without it. The monster in Harry's chest - his debates with himself - his fantasies about Ginny - all of those things just made me enjoy it even more. I felt that Jo really got into the head of a teenage boy - showing his confusion and doubts. My son has not finished the book completely - he decided he wanted to read the entire series through again in order - but he said that he has felt like that when he likes a girl - but he wouldn't have picked the word monster to describe it but agreed that it was an accurate depiction - just a bit corny.

Okay seriously not trying to troll, but I was wondering if there are any others out there like me, and as there is no Romance as it relates to HBP I think this is the correct place for my thoughts…

I recently reread the series, as a whole not in parts, and fully knowing what was coming. And while it this lead to a lot of wonderful/ sad moments…I defy somebody not to at least sniff when Dumdledore's talking to Harry about death in SS/PS knowing how his murder will go down. Or not laugh with delight as Neville seems hesitant to enter into Luna's compartment on the train; and yet know that they will comfort each other when Dumdledore dies. However the reread also lead to dissatisfaction with how romance was handled in HBP. I hate to say it, as I was both a strong Heron and Chocolate shipper, but I feel that though JKR foreshadowed, and layered many plot lines the romance in HBP feels rushed and shallow, at least to me.

She had a lot to work off with both ships, and up until OotP I thought both ships where being portrayed beautifully; but then HBP it got heavy handed and felt forced. HBP has a different vibe then the other books, and I think part of it is that the stream lined wonderfully written main plot of the story is often forced in to the back ground for heavy handed romance.

Now when I first read HBP I thought who cares if the romance feels "rushed and shallow" the pairing I had been longing for came true. I breezed though the book that I had waited for two years, I was like a starving man at a feast. But on the reread, and reading more slowly, it really grated on my nerves, after all these romances aren't supposed to be the disposable high school romances; but rather romances that we are supposed to believe are love.

Anyway I was just wondering if there are any Chocolate Herons out there who felt a little put off by it all?
I agree. I liked the harry/ginny relationship better the first time I read the book than when I reread all of them at once recently. I hadn't ever shipped harry with anyone, so who he ended up with didn't really matter to me, but rereading it, I didn't like it as much. I think jkr introduced Harry's love for Ginny and used the "monster in Harry's chest" lines to drill into our heads that HARRY LOVES GINNY and it became tiresome. I think that the Ron/Hermione relationship was much more well-written, partly since its been brewing since CoS and you didn't really have to try in order to find R/Hr hints. I don't know if it was just because we couldn't see Ron's or Hermione's thoughts, but all of Harry's thoughts about Ginny seemed like overkill.

(I hope my opinions aren't biased because I've always shipped R/Hr)

And I don't understand the origin the term "Chocolate Herons" although I get that it refers to H/G--R/Hr shippers. Could someone explain it?

And I don't understand the origin the term "Chocolate Herons" although I get that it refers to H/G--R/Hr shippers. Could someone explain it?

Heron refers to Ron and Hermione - a combination of their names.

Chocolate refers to Harry and Ginny - based on the chocolate scene in the library from OOTP.

Excellent post!!:clap: I actually, at the end of OOtP, I was a Harry and Ginny shipper, you could say. I really thought the development of Ginny was astonishing, and she really contrasted beautifully with Harry in OOtP, especially during his moments when he was upset, and the scene in the library, where Ginny offers to help Harry talk to Sirius. At the end of OOtP, I was actually hoping for a Harry and Luna or a Harry and Ginny rommance in HBP. But when book 6 came around, and Harry and Ginny happened in canon, I didn't like how it was protrayed as much as I thought it was leading up to it in OOtP. JKR is a brillant writer, and I loved her writing style in book 6, but I just (personally) didn't like the way Harry and Ginny's realationship was written, perhaps it was the "monster dancing the conga" in Harry's chest, or the whole "but she ditched Dean! He is your best mate!" dialouge . Although there were some moments that I liked, like the funeral scene when Harry says how much he cared about her, and when Ginny was defending Harry by going with Luna to the Slug Club party. It was actually post HBP that I realized that I didn't like Harry and Ginny as well as a couple as well as I thought I would have from reading OOtP.

Yes that's pretty much how I feel :). Only at the end of OotP, I was an avid Chocolate shipper; I thought the H/G relationship had been set up really well; and I could wait for more development in HBP. Yet once HBP came I felt like let down by it; like I'd gone to see a movie/ or read a book that didn't live up to hype around. I never really read many H/G fan fiction fewer then a handful, because I didn't want my "true ship" to be clouded by fan fiction.

I realize that JKR will (probably) have Harry and Ginny as a reunited couple in book 7, and that is just fine with me, I want a happy ending. And maybe in book 7, if Harry and Ginny become canon again, I will see that realationship in the same light as I did first going into HBP.

I also agree with that. I want Harry to have happy ending! I'm hopeful for book seven, but still disappointed in book six (at least from a purely romantic point of view). :)

Heron refers to Ron and Hermione - a combination of their names.

Chocolate refers to Harry and Ginny - based on the chocolate scene in the library from OOTP.
Thanks! I'd guessed the thing about the chocolate scene, but I wasn't sure.

Excellent post!! (However I agree that Ron/Hermione interactions were great in this book). I actually, at the end of OOtP, I was a Harry and Ginny shipper, you could say. I really thought the development of Ginny was astonishing, and she really contrasted beautifully with Harry in OOtP, especially during his moments when he was upset, and the scene in the library, where Ginny offers to help Harry talk to Sirius. At the end of OOtP, I was actually hoping for a Harry and Luna or a Harry and Ginny rommance in HBP. But when book 6 came around, and Harry and Ginny happened in canon, I didn't like how it was protrayed as much as I thought it was leading up to it in OOtP. JKR is a brillant writer, and I loved her writing style in book 6, but I just (personally) didn't like the way Harry and Ginny's realationship was written, perhaps it was the "monster dancing the conga" in Harry's chest, or the whole "but she ditched Dean! He is your best mate!" dialouge .

Although there were some moments that I liked, like the funeral scene when Harry says how much he cared about her, and when Ginny was defending Harry by going with Luna to the Slug Club party. It was actually post HBP that I realized that I didn't like Harry and Ginny as well as a couple as well as I thought I would have from reading OOtP. It seems hard to imagine, from me not being an avid Harry and Ginny supporter, but a few years back I read Harry/Ginny fanfiction, and really loved it, and I always thought of it as a possibility that Harry would end up with Ginny. I realize that JKR will (probably) have Harry and Ginny as a reunited couple in book 7, and that is just fine with me, I want a happy ending. And maybe in book 7, if Harry and Ginny become canon again, I will see that realationship in the same light as I did first going into HBP.

Ooh, nice story. Well (sorry if i'm getting off topic you guys) I was never really a Harry/Ginny shipper. I don't know why, it just didn't seem they had the same level of understanding each other as they could (don't bite my head off guys, I KNOW Ginny understands him, okay?) And it kinda irritated me when people kept saying in OotP that she was the only one who defended herself against Harry's "Spazfest", because I remembered how Hermione had told him not to get doen her and Ron's throats when they were defending him after she told him about Lavender not believing him. Then, when Luna was introduced, I still wasn't really into Harry/ anyone, because their wasn't much for me to choose from. I was a hard core Ron/Hermione shipper (lover... fanatic....obsesser... :lol:) so I didn't want him with her. I was actually leaning a bit to Neville/Ginny for some reason (that to this day I still don't know) because I figured everyone needed someone, and she would be alright with him.

But when Luna saw the horses that pulled the carraiges, and the thresals like he did, and even heard the voices beyond the veil, and knew how it felt to lose a parent, I fell in love with the idea of Harry/Luna. I mean, she's wierd yes, but her and Harry had a special understanding of things that others don't have. Sure, Ginny may be "for him" but even she doesn't know the full extent of the trauma he's been through in his life. She's just figuring it out. And Luna figured it out in one book!

What really got me was the end, when it said how after Harry talked to him, he felt a weight had been lifted off of him (something like that). That part brought tears to my eyes, and from that moment I KNEW that I was A Harry/Luna shipper.

I mean, you guys can't blame that argument, can you?:)

Yes that's pretty much how I feel :). Only at the end of OotP, I was an avid Chocolate shipper; I thought the H/G relationship had been set up really well; and I could wait for more development in HBP. Yet once HBP came I felt like let down by it; like I'd gone to see a movie/ or read a book that didn't live up to hype around. I never really read many H/G fan fiction fewer then a handful, because I didn't want my "true ship" to be clouded by fan fiction.

I also agree with that. I want Harry to have happy ending! I'm hopeful for book seven, but still disappointed in book six (at least from a purely romantic point of view). :)

I as well as you, was a Harry and Ginny "shipper", I thought it was set up very well, and I was eager to see what would happen in HBP, because I thought it was either Ginny or Luna would be Harry's rommantic intrest, with Ginny at the forefront as my pick. Although some of the protrayal of Harry's growing intrest for Ginny was realistic, I thought, that at times, it was a bit overdrawn, and it could have been cut back abit. (I usually don't read that much fan fics either, but I did a few years back that were devoutly Harry and Ginny, and I actually liked them, I think they were on a Harry Potter affiliated site).

Ooh, nice story. Well (sorry if i'm getting off topic you guys) I was never really a Harry/Ginny shipper. I don't know why, it just didn't seem they had the same level of understanding each other as they could (don't bite my head off guys, I KNOW Ginny understands him, okay?) And it kinda irritated me when people kept saying in OotP that she was the only one who defended herself against Harry's "Spazfest", because I remembered how Hermione had told him not to get doen her and Ron's throats when they were defending him after she told him about Lavender not believing him. Then, when Luna was introduced, I still wasn't really into Harry/ anyone, because their wasn't much for me to choose from. I was a hard core Ron/Hermione shipper (lover... fanatic....obsesser... :lol:) so I didn't want him with her. I was actually leaning a bit to Neville/Ginny for some reason (that to this day I still don't know) because I figured everyone needed someone, and she would be alright with him.

But when Luna saw the horses that pulled the carraiges, and the thresals like he did, and even heard the voices beyond the veil, and knew how it felt to lose a parent, I fell in love with the idea of Harry/Luna. I mean, she's wierd yes, but her and Harry had a special understanding of things that others don't have. Sure, Ginny may be "for him" but even she doesn't know the full extent of the trauma he's been through in his life. She's just figuring it out. And Luna figured it out in one book!

What really got me was the end, when it said how after Harry talked to him, he felt a weight had been lifted off of him (something like that). That part brought tears to my eyes, and from that moment I KNEW that I was A Harry/Luna shipper.

I mean, you guys can't blame that argument, can you?:)

I really liked that part of OOtP, that I think showed a bond between Harry and Luna, platonic or not, I really thought it was special, especially going into HBP on the train ride when Harry considered Neville and Luna his good friends. I don't think it was just Ginny that conforted Harry in OOtP, it was a combination of all of his friends, but there were a few notable moments, such as the possesion issue, and Ginny remined Harry that she was a victim of being under possesion too, and when Harry said he forgot, she said "Lucky You".

Also, in HBP, some people say how Harry is worried about harming Ginny, and that is the reason why Harry ended it with her, to make her safe so Voldemort won't use her as bait, for Harry thinks it would be alot worse this time around if they were actually dating, and she wasn't just his best friend's sister. But, I notice, in some instances Ginny looks out for Harry too. Like when Ginny delievers a note to Harry, and Harry mentions his potions workbook, and the extra "notes" written inside of it, Ginny became worried because of her own experiences, and tells Harry to be carefull.

IAlthough some of the protrayal of Harry's growing intrest for Ginny was realistic, I thought, that at times, it was a bit overdrawn, and it could have been cut back abit. (I usually don't read that much fan fics either, but I did a few years back that were devoutly Harry and Ginny, and I actually liked them, I think they were on a Harry Potter affiliated site).

I have always been a Harry/Ginny shipper, I don't know why, maybe because I want everyone to fit together nicely and I just knew Ron and Hermione belonged together. I think the reason we all see it as a bit overdrawn is that we actually read what Harry thinks. We don't know anything that's going on in Ron's or Hermione's head, we just deduce what they think from their actions. So I wasn't offended by it because let's face it, when you're into someone, all you think about is them. That's why it was kind of drilled into us in the books, because that's all Harry thought about (and the threat on his life, of course.. :rolleyes:)

The only thing I felt was maybe overdone was their first kiss, right after the quidditch match. Harry came into the room and it was like they understood each other soooo well and all, but Harry had never really talked to Ginny about feeling or anything. That felt a bit odd to me that they would just be legilimens all of a sudden and understand each other so perfectly, that just doesn't seem to happen in real life, does it? :grumble:



I really liked that part of OOtP, that I think showed a bond between Harry and Luna, platonic or not, I really thought it was special, especially going into HBP on the train ride when Harry considered Neville and Luna his good friends.

I've always seen Luna as a female Neville, they're not quite friends like Ron and Hermione are, but they're both there, supportive but independent from everyone, kind of both in their little worlds. I'd actually rather see Luna with Neville than with Harry.

I wanted Ginny with Harry too, I think I see a bit of myself in Ginny. I really want Luna to go with Neville too, but I think that JKR said that would not happen.

I have always been a Harry/Ginny shipper, I don't know why, maybe because I want everyone to fit together nicely and I just knew Ron and Hermione belonged together. I think the reason we all see it as a bit overdrawn is that we actually read what Harry thinks. We don't know anything that's going on in Ron's or Hermione's head, we just deduce what they think from their actions. So I wasn't offended by it because let's face it, when you're into someone, all you think about is them. That's why it was kind of drilled into us in the books, because that's all Harry thought about (and the threat on his life, of course.. :rolleyes:)


I agree - everything is seen from Harry's viewpoint, and once he realizes what he's feeling, it becomes pretty intense. I can certainly remember times when that kind of thing would have dominated much of my thinking. Personalities vary, but I thought it fit Harry's personality very well.

The only thing I felt was maybe overdone was their first kiss, right after the quidditch match. Harry came into the room and it was like they understood each other soooo well and all, but Harry had never really talked to Ginny about feeling or anything. That felt a bit odd to me that they would just be legilimens all of a sudden and understand each other so perfectly, that just doesn't seem to happen in real life, does it? :grumble:


Well, I can see why you could feel that way. But Harry has been thinking intensely about Ginny for quite a while. And he was around Ginny quite a lot - I'd be surprised if she hadn't figured pretty well what direction his thinking was running - I think she would have noticed the sudden increase in attention. In real life I think it would be pretty unusual for it to go quite that abruptly; but for a story, I thought it was pretty nice. Almost every story exagerrates many things to some degree.

I have always been a Harry/Ginny shipper, I don't know why, maybe because I want everyone to fit together nicely and I just knew Ron and Hermione belonged together. I think the reason we all see it as a bit overdrawn is that we actually read what Harry thinks. We don't know anything that's going on in Ron's or Hermione's head, we just deduce what they think from their actions. So I wasn't offended by it because let's face it, when you're into someone, all you think about is them. That's why it was kind of drilled into us in the books, because that's all Harry thought about (and the threat on his life, of course.. :rolleyes:)

The only thing I felt was maybe overdone was their first kiss, right after the quidditch match. Harry came into the room and it was like they understood each other soooo well and all, but Harry had never really talked to Ginny about feeling or anything. That felt a bit odd to me that they would just be legilimens all of a sudden and understand each other so perfectly, that just doesn't seem to happen in real life, does it? :grumble:



I agree that since the series is from Harry's point of view, that it should be expected to see the insights of Harry's realationship and his changing feelings for Ginny. I bet other characters are having the same conflicts perhaps, but we don't see the story from their point of view---just from Harry's. I know what it is like when you fall head over heels in love with a person, and your right it [sometimes] is all that you can think about, and even though there were very crucial plot points on HBP, such as the meetings with Dumbledore, Ginny was on Harry's mind off and on, because of his growing feeings for her, and that is typical for a teenager to feel that way, however, sometimes, at least during the beginning of the Harry and Ginny realationship evolving in HBP, that it was more a chemical attraction--hence the flowery smell and whatnot. However, as I read on, espeically as the book ended, I felt that the realationship between Harry and Ginny went beyond normal teenage love and lust, but the pairing still wasn't my favorite, (just my opinion :) ), but I can honestly say I liked the part when Harry said "We understand each other completely" more than I liked the "happy hour by the lake" ideal--which for me epitimized a typical teenage rommance, but, there is nothing wrong with that either. :)

I liked hearing or knowing Harry's thoughts on Ginny, maybe because I have been a Harry/Ginny shipper for so long.

I liked hearing or knowing Harry's thoughts on Ginny, maybe because I have been a Harry/Ginny shipper for so long. Me too. I thought that was the reason I had more fun reading the Harry/Ginny romance than the Ron/Hermione one in HBP (or it could be that they actually became a couple while I'm still waiting on R/H :grumble: ). I've always been more interested in Harry's future romance over Ron/Hermione's because after the life he's had, I really want Harry to be happy and to find his perfect girl who would make him happy. I thought the monster in his chest was an inspired use of words by JK because it could be used as a euphemism/personification for so many things - lust, jealousy, love, desire, etc. I loved the monster ... especially when it did the conga. Go Harry :lol:

Cheers :tu:

I am worried that Harry and Ginny may not have much of a future together after all because in an interview with the Tattler, J.K. Rowling said she was killing off a lot more characters, both good and bad, and now I'm afraid she's going to bump Harry or Ginny or both off now!

I don’t think JKR is going to kill off Harry or Ginny (or Ron or Hermione, for that matter). I don’t know, it just seems weird to me that she’s spent so much time developing their relationships and showing us how they could live very happily together, and then she kills them in book 7. But I could be wrong, of course (but I hope I’m not :)).

Me too. I thought that was the reason I had more fun reading the Harry/Ginny romance than the Ron/Hermione one in HBP (or it could be that they actually became a couple while I'm still waiting on R/H :grumble: ). I've always been more interested in Harry's future romance over Ron/Hermione's because after the life he's had, I really want Harry to be happy and to find his perfect girl who would make him happy. I thought the monster in his chest was an inspired use of words by JK because it could be used as a euphemism/personification for so many things - lust, jealousy, love, desire, etc. I loved the monster ... especially when it did the conga. Go Harry :lol:

Cheers :tu:

I agree. It was so much fun to read about the "monster" and the debates with himself were just priceless. Although, I think my favorite was when Harry woke up from dreams that made him "devoutly grateful" that Ron could not do Legillimency. :lol:

I am worried that Harry and Ginny may not have much of a future together after all because in an interview with the Tattler, J.K. Rowling said she was killing off a lot more characters, both good and bad, and now I'm afraid she's going to bump Harry or Ginny or both off now!

I don't think she is going to kill of any of the trio, or Ginny. As long as Ron, Hermione, and Ginny live Harry can have a happy ending. A happy ending marred by the death of many loved ones (his parents, Sirius, Dumdledore, and I think Hagrid; and while they are not loved ones I think the deaths of Snape, and Voldy will strong effect him as well) but a happy ending none the less. These books are in large part about death, but also about life and how it persists and grows even in the harsher environments.

Plus don't forget these are children's books. And while their are children's books that are psyche shatteringly sad (I cried for day about Where the Red Ferns Grow; and lets not even mention Old Yeller; or My Sister's Keeper which my 14 year old niece's English teacher assigned her to read) most are not. I think Harry Potter will have a happy ending; and to have a happy ending Harry, Ginny, Ron, and Hermione will all have to be alive and breath when we read "scar" for the last time. IMHO at least :)

I don't think she is going to kill of any of the trio, or Ginny. As long as Ron, Hermione, and Ginny live Harry can have a happy ending. A happy ending marred by the death of many loved ones (his parents, Sirius, Dumdledore, and I think Hagrid; and while they are not loved ones I think the deaths of Snape, and Voldy will strong effect him as well) but a happy ending none the less. These books are in large part about death, but also about life and how it persists and grows even in the harsher environments.

Plus don't forget these are children's books. And while their are children's books that are psyche shatteringly sad (I cried for day about Where the Red Ferns Grow; and lets not even mention Old Yeller; or My Sister's Keeper which my 14 year old niece's English teacher assigned her to read) most are not. I think Harry Potter will have a happy ending; and to have a happy ending Harry, Ginny, Ron, and Hermione will all have to be alive and breath when we read "scar" for the last time. IMHO at least :)

I agree. Jo has taken them on an emotionally and physically trying journey. They are at war. They have been forced to put their own lives aside repeatedly because of it. They have earned the right for a happy ending. I don't doubt that there will be more losses but I don't believe that it will be Harry, Ron, Hermione, or Ginny.

I don't know who will die, although I doubt Hermione, Ron or Ginny will. I don't care so much about Harry because it's anticipated at least, we'll be prepared if it happens. The future of Harry/Ginny I'm interested about is in book 7 though, because I don't really care if they live happily ever after, I just want to know if they get back together and how Ginny will fit into the plot.

Edit; I just re-read my post and I just want to say : Don't get me wrong, I want them to live happily ever after, but that just seems too fairy tale-y for Harry Potter stories, doesn't it, and they have such a long way to go before that can even be considered so...

oh and I don't want Harry to die, I'm just saying it's a possibility even if I'm not looking forward to it..

I so want Harry to live and be happy, so very much. I think he deserves a happy ending after all he has been through.

Edit; I just re-read my post and I just want to say : Don't get me wrong, I want them to live happily ever after, but that just seems too fairy tale-y for Harry Potter stories, doesn't it, and they have such a long way to go before that can even be considered so...

Actually it won't seem like a fairy tale at all because the Trio had been through a series of obstacles which have scarred them for the rest of their lives and since the war against Voldemort still hasn't ended, there will be more pain and suffering to come. It will take years for them to heal and get over the trauma of battle and but they will survive and find the peace and hapiness they deserve.

I agree. It was so much fun to read about the "monster" and the debates with himself were just priceless. Although, I think my favorite was when Harry woke up from dreams that made him "devoutly grateful" that Ron could not do Legillimency. :lol:

The whole "monster" thing was probably my least favorite part of Harry and Ginny, along with the whole debates with himself, but that is just me, and it is probably the whole "monster" and "happy hour by the lake" and such that is why I am not a Harry/ Ginny shipper. Many people like the personification given by the "monster" to describe Harry's feelings for Ginny, but I didn't (but that is just my personal opinion).

I want a happy ending, and part of me really wants to like the Harry and Ginny realationship like I did pre-HBP, but the whole personification used with the "monster" and the debates going on with Harry, was what I really didn't like about the Harry and Ginny realationship. The ending of the realationship, like when they said they understood each other however, was quite "aww worthy" though.

The whole "monster" thing was probably my least favorite part of Harry and Ginny, along with the whole debates with himself, but that is just me, and it is probably the whole "monster" and "happy hour by the lake" and such that is why I am not a Harry/ Ginny shipper.

I guess it's all a matter of opinion :) It was simply Jo's way of portraying Harry's love, desire etc for Ginny by calling his jealousy a monster, and it was a very tactful way of dsescribing it I must say, and his internal battle is something that everyone had gone through when they were in a dilemma. I personally think that it was perfect the way it was written because it was an excellent blend of romance and great humor. But to each his own I suppose...

I think that they will end up together very much alive at the end of the 7th book. Because (in my opinion) the Harry Potter books are all about how love conquers all and not nessesatrly Good over bad. Because if the main plot would be Good over Evil then nobody on the Good side would die. But the only way I think Ginny would die was if she were trying to protect Harry that would be the only way she could die because teqnically his "protector"

I was never a Harry/Ginny shipper utill the end of the last book because for some reason it never occured to me that they were a possibility
Sometimes I'm just really stupid:no:

I guess it's all a matter of opinion :) It was simply Jo's way of portraying Harry's love, desire etc for Ginny by calling his jealousy a monster, and it was a very tactful way of dsescribing it I must say, and his internal battle is something that everyone had gone through when they were in a dilemma. I personally think that it was perfect the way it was written because it was an excellent blend of romance and great humor. But to each his own I suppose...

I think JKR did a great job writing HBP---I am not saying that at all, I think the personification was aptly used, but I, personally thought it wasn't the most pleasurable part of HBP. It is sort of like when you have a friend who really likes somebody and all they do is talk about them and think about them 24/7, and sometimes it gets old after awhile, but hey its teenage love, what am I expecting??:lol:

I think JKR did a great job writing HBP---I am not saying that at all, I think the personification was aptly used, but I, personally thought it wasn't the most pleasurable part of HBP. It is sort of like when you have a friend who really likes somebody and all they do is talk about them and think about them 24/7, and sometimes it gets old after awhile, but hey its teenage love, what am I expecting??:lol:

I understand what you're saying. You can't please everybody - that's how I look at it. Personally, I enjoyed it. I thought it was an insightful look inside a teenage boys head - a really good blend of romance and humor. But even Jo herself said that not everyone would like HBP. There is really just no way for her to please everyone.

I think both relationships in HBP were extremely natural and that's what I love them for. While Ron and Hermione were too insecure to admit their feelings before the other would do that, Harry and Ginny were pretty much like two people destined for each other who needed only to get rid of some problems to fall in each others arms. It was a very teenage romance, hormones and all, and it was completly happy in a most simple, primitive way that let you forget about cupboards under the stairs and DeathEaters. The friendship, trust, understanding, fun, it was only hinted, yes, but JK made it clear that H/G is not just 'oh, I like to talk to you, let's snog' or 'you know I felt lonely lately too'. It all will eventually show up given a chance (like in the parting scene), because the basic bond is already there and in Harry/Ginny case, the most desired thing for people, physical intimacy, happened forcefully without thinking.

Harry after gaining experience in shallow relationship matured, then struggled with feeling for Ginny and it was supossed to be funny till it all eventually blew up in the worst possible moment. Ginny on the other hand, it was brewing inside her for the whole series, from loving a legend in PS, crushing on idol in CoS-GoF, being a friend in OotP and even in HBP she did care. She almost cried shouting at Ron that Harry snogged Cho. She noticed his new behaviour when he hugged her after the match, and she did react, trying to look into his eyes and understand if the thing she was hoping for so long happened after so many years. He pretended he can't see it. It's so typical for him, but if he didn't they'd hold each others hands and kiss right after that first match. So, while Harry/Ginny was supossed to be funny and natural, little, tiny things here and there showed that it's all only pretending, waiting, making sure that it's not only illusion, not a brotherly feeling, not a daydream.

H/G in HBP wasn't what I expected (and I'm obsessed Chocolateer from book 1), but it was better. It wasn't angsty, moody, it wasn't out of loneliness, not looking for family in Weasleys, not a habit nor accepting devotion he had from his fangirls. It was Ginny all way long and it was Harry above everyone and I find it a proof it will last no matter what.

H/G in HBP wasn't what I expected (and I'm obsessed Chocolateer from book 1), but it was better. It wasn't angsty, moody, it wasn't out of loneliness, not looking for family in Weasleys, not a habit nor accepting devotion he had from his fangirls. It was Ginny all way long and it was Harry above everyone and I find it a proof it will last no matter what.

Exactly. It wasn't like Harry needed to depend on Ginny for support after Sirius' death (God knows how many fanfiction I've read like that), he wasn't looking at anything else at all. He fell for Ginny simply because of the person she is. There are, of course, quite a few perks in getting into a relationship with Ginny, like being a part of the Weasley family, having Ron and Hermione close by as well and so on, but Harry didn't think about that when he got with her.

The whole "monster" thing was probably my least favorite part of Harry and Ginny, along with the whole debates with himself, but that is just me, and it is probably the whole "monster" and "happy hour by the lake" and such that is why I am not a Harry/ Ginny shipper. Many people like the personification given by the "monster" to describe Harry's feelings for Ginny, but I didn't (but that is just my personal opinion).Well she couldn't get graphic about what Harry might have been experiencing physically, so she used literary shorthand to describe his feelings (the monster stood for both his turbulent emotional and physical responses).

I really do hope that Harry and Ginny survive this, I just can not see how they will.

Well she couldn't get graphic about what Harry might have been experiencing physically, so she used literary shorthand to describe his feelings (the monster stood for both his turbulent emotional and physical responses).

I understand that, and I didn't say the monster was a bad way to describe Harry's feelings [however I have never felt one myself--nor has my friends], all I am saying was that it wasn't partically my favorite part of the Harry/ Ginny relationship, if I had to choose, I liked it better when they were actually a couple, because that whole element of pre-dating euphoria---if you could call it that, was over. (for Hermione and Ron--its tension:lol: )

I understand what you're saying. You can't please everybody - that's how I look at it. Personally, I enjoyed it. I thought it was an insightful look inside a teenage boys head - a really good blend of romance and humor. But even Jo herself said that not everyone would like HBP. There is really just no way for her to please everyone.

You are absolutely right. You can't please everybody. But actually I enjoyed 85% of HBP, even including some Harry and Ginny moments. I love JKR and her style of writing, she is my favorite author, but its only natural in a story to like a part, but perhaps someone else doesn't, and vice versa.

I make a point of not referring to posters' ages because it is mostly irrelevant. But at the age of 16, I hadn't felt a monster yet either. However, I felt it constantly only a few years later. You will eventually feel something akin to the monster. And I'm not just referring to lust. I mean strong emotional attraction. It just depends on when it hits you. I think the kids mature sooner in Potterverse since they are considered adults at age 17.

I make a point of not referring to poster's ages because it is mostly irrelevant. But at the age of 16, I hadn't felt a monster yet either. However, I felt it constantly only a few years later. You will eventually feel something akin to the monster. And I'm not just referring to lust. I mean strong emotional attraction. It just depends on when it hits you. I think the kids mature sooner in Potterverse since they are considered adults at age 17.

I agree. In addition, JKR is an adult, and has probably felt plenty of monsters in her life. She can't help looking back at her teenage years through the filter of her later experiences, so that might be why it doesn't ring as true to someone who's the same age as Harry and Ginny as it does for someone who' s a little older.

I make a point of not referring to poster's ages because it is mostly irrelevant. But at the age of 16, I hadn't felt a monster yet either. However, I felt it constantly only a few years later. You will eventually feel something akin to the monster. And I'm not just referring to lust. I mean strong emotional attraction. It just depends on when it hits you. I think the kids mature sooner in Potterverse since they are considered adults at age 17.
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So ture. That's like on the first day of school back from the Hoidays I saw this boy I like and he just said hi and all of a sudden I got really hot and could barely breathe and I felt ready to pass out or something.....

... but that has nothing to do with Harry/Ginny:blush:... Right....

Um..... I really do hope that Harry and Ginny survive this, I just can not see how they will.

Agree. I can't stand to see harry NOT happy, so with Ginny he should be!

*smirk, cough, cough :wink:*

I make a point of not referring to poster's ages because it is mostly irrelevant. But at the age of 16, I hadn't felt a monster yet either. However, I felt it constantly only a few years later. You will eventually feel something akin to the monster. And I'm not just referring to lust. I mean strong emotional attraction. It just depends on when it hits you. I think the kids mature sooner in Potterverse since they are considered adults at age 17.

I agree. Potterverse kids do seem to mature faster due to circumstances, especially nowadays, since there is a war going on, and that is bound to make them more mature and grow up faster as well, such as Arthur and Molly Weasley said, about how they got married soon due to the troubled times of their younger years. Perhaps, I have felt something on terms of a "monster" (the typical jealousness, teen agnst, and other such emotions , I have felt plenty of times) I guess that whole term was new to me in association with love, except for the whole "green-eyed" monster term, which sort of described Harry's feelings too, espcecially considering Ginny's realationship with Dean.

After reading these posts, I am convinced that I was initally too hard on the monster in harry's chest scenes. I agree that there was no better way to describe harry's feelings for ginny and I agree that this was probably the most tactful way to show that.

Personally, I enjoyed it. I thought it was an insightful look inside a teenage boys head - a really good blend of romance and humor. But even Jo herself said that not everyone would like HBP. There is really just no way for her to please everyone. She pleased me :D This wasn't a monster scene but I loved it.

"Ginny came in to visit while you were unconscious," he said, after a long pause, and Harry's imagination zoomed into overdrive, rapidly constructing a scene in which Ginny, weeping over his lifeless form, confessed her feelings of deep attraction to him while Ron gave them his blessing...."She reckons you only just arrived on time for the match. How come? You left here early enough."
"Oh..." said Harry, as the scene in his mind's eye imploded.

I loved that scene. I laughed so hard when his thoughts imploded. Then again I had to put down the book because I was laughing so hard at Luna's commentary especially Smith suffering from "Losers lurgy" so who knows what kind of silly mood I was in.

After reading these posts, I am convinced that I was initally too hard on the monster in harry's chest scenes. I agree that there was no better way to describe harry's feelings for ginny and I agree that this was probably the most tactful way to show that.I honestly thought her use of the monster analogy was very inspired because I cannot think of a better term she could have used to convey all that she wanted to convey so that both children and adults could understand and appreciate.


Cheers :tu: