Underground Lake #31 - The Power the Dark Lord Knows Not

Discussion for The Underground Lake #31 - The Power the Dark Lord Knows Not (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theundergroundlake/tul31.shtml) by Brandon Ford.

Oh, my. Brandon, I have to say this again - your editorials are something very akin to brilliance. I don't think there's a sinble one that has not given me much to consider, and much to be amused about. This time around is no exception.

That's when it hit me: I'M THINKING LIKE VOLDEMORT! What killed Voldemort last time? THE POWER THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT!
*nods* Exactly what I was thinking. We think love is such a weak force, such a pushover compared to the spells and curses and extreme power and talent the Dark Lord has - well, we've just entered the universe of our dear Voldy. He didn't learn the first time around, and he'll fall prey to that same power a second time. Lucky for Harry and for us, don't you think?

I'm not sure if I personally agree that Ginny is the one who is going to feel the love for Harry. I personally believe that the bonds of friendship are stronger than those of romance, particularly since Harry has expierienced six years' worth of struggle with Ron and Hermionie at his side. You make some very valid points though. If it does turn out to be Ginny, JKR is going to have to write that in very cleverly. Not that she can't, though. How could I lose faith in Jo?

The reason Harry was going to die was because he had nothing to fight for.
I couldn't have put this better, Brandon. Exactly what I've been trying to explain to many people! I think I will be referring people to this editorial quite often!

Wow. Deep stuff, deep stuff. Your editorials always leave me with something to think about and I don't think I've ever really disagreed with anything you've said (although I'm not as convinced as you are that Harry's going to die). The last paragraph was especially resonating.

Wow Brandon! You're right on!

I think the relationship between Ron and Hermione will come into play as well. Harry's world is personified by Ginny, which is enough alone, but when Ron and Hermione finally get around to admitting their feelings to each other, Harry's going to see the love between them as motivation for snuffing Voldy and saving the world too.

I will be sad when he dies, but for heck's sake, the kid deserves a little family reunion.

I always enjoy your editorials, Brandon. And I agree with you that Ginny is going to be a big factor. Yes, Harry would sacrifice himself in an instant for Ginny. Hasn't his whole life at Hogwarts been about his willingness to sacrifice himself for others? But it is his love for Ginny that will pull Harry back from the brink. It is her love that sustains him. It was Ginny that brought him out of his depression in OotP. It was Ginny that was able to tear Harry away from Albus' body.

Especially after reading HBP, I have every faith that JKR can pull off the "love power" ending without being sappy.

Well done, Brandon! You never disappoint!

However, I think Harry will survive. Meanwhile, Jo will do a fantastic job of fooling us all into thinking he's dead.

Upon hearing the Prophecy (at this point, everyone should know the one I mean), I have always feared that "the power the dark lord knows not" would be something stupid like love. I say something stupid because as an avid fan of HP, it disgusted me for a long time to think that JKR would "take the easy way out" and have Voldemort undone by something as simple as lovewhat an amazing idiot! since when has love been simple.

that is the problem with 21 century America, or the world. they can't even understand the concept of the word love, and all it entails. they think of it as being something that they read about in stupid novels, or what they see between actors on TV shows on the WB. when the depth and complexity of the word goes much deeper than that... and if all you gleaned from reading HBP is something simplistic and nonsensical than maybe you should give up your freakin column

Wow Brandon, you are a contradiction... first you say Voldemort won't be killed by something as "stupid" as love and then you write all that stuff to prove yourself wrong.

This "power the dark lord knows not," or Reverse Horcrux, is the opposite: the saving of another soul through a supreme act of goodness. In other words, by sacrificing yourself to save someone else, you create a force so positively charged (that is, charged with love and goodness), that evil cannot stand it.

Call it "Reverse horcrux" if you want to, but it sounds like love to me.

I don't think the "power the dark lord knows not" is just love. If this misterious power was love indeed, couldn't Voldie be killed by anybody else too? or does that mean that Harry is the only person who loves? or he loves more than others, or maybe... he's in love with Voldemort!? There has to be something else. Something more extreme.

And I agree with you about Harry getting together with Ginny after seeing her looking really gorgeous at the wedding, this could be very possible.

Here's a theory, Lily worked in that locked room in the Department of Mysteries and that's why Voldemort would have spared her, to get information about love. It would explain why JKR is so secretive about her job and that locked room. Could it be possible that she might have put charms on Harry (her wand was excellent for charms) that she had learned from that room that gave Harry extra protection when Voldemort tried to kill him? Maybe Lily was just the last ingredient in the ultimate love potion. Just a quick thought. :)

By connecting Ginny to Harry,she gave him a family,and by connecting Ron and Hermy it assures us they'll be always together.It doesn't sound like she is planning on killing Harry.

i really like brandons theary and i hope he keeps it up..... lthough... i dont want harry to die.-----*dumb look on face* ----- thats what he said right?

Here's a theory, Lily worked in that locked room in the Department of Mysteries and that's why Voldemort would have spared her, to get information about love. It would explain why JKR is so secretive about her job and that locked room. Could it be possible that she might have put charms on Harry (her wand was excellent for charms) that she had learned from that room that gave Harry extra protection when Voldemort tried to kill him? Maybe Lily was just the last ingredient in the ultimate love potion. Just a quick thought. :)


I suggests you go back and reread. The protection that saved harry's life was "old magic." It simply happened when she sacraficed herself for him." She didn't cast a special spell before she was killed. Though she may have worked for the DoM, that doesn't mean before she died she thought "Well, if i die Harry will be safe." Most likely her only thought was, "I'll die before anyone hurts my son."


Ok and as for the column,

I think you made Lily's protection over Harry slightly more complicated by calling it a "reverse horcrux." Maybe you just meant it was "similar magic," but you lost me for a second. Anyway, you made a good point about why Voldemort doesn't understand love or sacrafice (what would you get out of sacraficing yourself?).

Second, though you started to mention the locked room in the department of mysteries where they studied love, you never mentioned that perhaps this room will be valuable in the destruction of Voldy. Maybe harry will throw him in their first, weakening him (Dumbledore said he Voldy couldn't stand posessing Harry's body for more than a few moments because it was so full of love in OotP). Or maybe he'll go their to learn something, and figure out he already knows everything he needs about love. I guess i don't see why JKR would mention it without it being significant.

Also, Though I do think the Veil will be important (JKR doesn't kill someone off with it, and never discuss it again...Sirius might as well have been Avada Kedavra'd if that's the case), I'm not sure it will be used to finish Voldy. It seems to easy, and potentionally, too humane.I have my own ideas of how i would liek to see Voldemort go, but thats for another day.

Wow Brandon, you are a contradiction... first you say Voldemort won't be killed by something as "stupid" as love and then you write all that stuff to prove yourself wrong.


Quote:
This "power the dark lord knows not," or Reverse Horcrux, is the opposite: the saving of another soul through a supreme act of goodness. In other words, by sacrificing yourself to save someone else, you create a force so positively charged (that is, charged with love and goodness), that evil cannot stand it.


Call it "Reverse horcrux" if you want to, but it sounds like love to me.

I don't think the "power the dark lord knows not" is just love. If this misterious power was love indeed, couldn't Voldie be killed by anybody else too? or does that mean that Harry is the only person who loves? or he loves more than others, or maybe... he's in love with Voldemort!? There has to be something else. Something more extreme.

1st: the power IS love (!)
2nd: his not contradicting himself, he's proving himself wrong (as you said, but I guess you didn't realized he did it on purpose) he change his mind if you didn't notice it (c'mon who would have said those thougths in public if he did not thougth he had been an idiot for thinking like that :p )
3rd: I do not think Brandon is an idiot (in present tense :P, couldn't help it)
4th: by calling it reverse horcrux (and I agree with this dafinition because it works like and opossite, Jo is genius btw) he is not denyng it IS love, he's just trying to be pedagogical ( i supose thats a word if not sorry spanish is my first language)
5th: the power is LOVE and that's Brandon editorial theme, that he realized it is love indeed, and not as he (stupidly) thougth.

what an amazing idiot! since when has love been simple.

that is the problem with 21 century America, or the world. they can't even understand the concept of the word love, and all it entails. they think of it as being something that they read about in stupid novels, or what they see between actors on TV shows on the WB. when the depth and complexity of the word goes much deeper than that... and if all you gleaned from reading HBP is something simplistic and nonsensical than maybe you should give up your freakin column

well, maybe you should continue reading because it was a very good editorial:clap:

Brandon, I really enjoy your column, but I came to a different conclusion. I believe that Ron will sacrifice himself to protect Harry while he's weak or hurt, and Voldemort will make the same mistake twice: hit Harry with the Avada Kedavra, only to have it rebound onto himself. I could believe, however, that Harry might get himself into that weakened state to protect Ginny...

Susan

Dear onemanarmy,
I meant that she could have put charms on Harry long before Voldemort came, not when she knew he was in her house. She knew the prophesy and she knew Voldemort might come after Harry. JKR has said that Lily did not know what she was doing in sacrificing herself and I believe that and I believe as you believe that she would have died before she would let anyone hurt her son. I'm just saying maybe her death, along with spells she may have cast beforehand, may have protected Harry more than simply Lily choosing to die. Voldemort says that it was old magic but what would he know about the old magic related to love. He said himself to Dumbledore when he came back for the DADA job that he had found nothing that suggested that love was the most powerful thing in the world.

I don't think the "power the dark lord knows not" is just love. If this misterious power was love indeed, couldn't Voldie be killed by anybody else too? or does that mean that Harry is the only person who loves? or he loves more than others,[/QUOTE
I think you're missing one half of the prophecy. It says that "The Dark Lord will mark him as his equal but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not. Both of these components are what enable Harry to defeat Voldemort - he has bee marked as his equal (having Parseltonge, a brother wand, etc.), which will make him capable of defeating Voldemort, and he has love, which will motivate him to defeat Voldemort. Canon tells us as much:


[QUOTE]"So, when the prophecy says that I'll have 'power the Dark Lord knows not', it just means - love?" asked Harry, feeling a little let down.

"Yes - just love," said Dumbledore. "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemore made it so. I told you this at the end of last year. Voldemore singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him - and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!"

And later:
"[Voldemort] heard the prophecy and he leapt into action, with the result that he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons!"
So, Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort is due to the abilities transferred to him by Voldemort's initial attack - not due to love. Harry's choice to defeat Voldemort, at whatever cost, is due to love, and it is because of love that he has not turned to the Dark Side.

Brandon, I think your essay was good, but I highly doubt that Ginny will be the deciding factor in Voldemort's defeat. Rowling can't have emphasized friendship and family above all else for six straight books, and even ended HBP on that theme, to have the deciding and most important form of love be romantic. It doesn't make logical sense.

WOW! I really enjoyed your editorial! But why does Harry have to die? I strongly believe Ginny would be willing to die for him. Voldemort's horcruxes were intact when he went after Harry as a baby, and Lily's willing sacrifice caused the death curse to rebound. If the majority of the horcruxes can be destroyed, then maybe Harry and Ginny's sacrifice (and perhaps Ron and Hermione) will rebound the death curse again---with one major difference--they will be alive and Voldemort vaporized. :clap: :love:

Hello, I just had an interesting thought. Is it possible that Narcissa (who at the beginning of HBP said I WOULD DO ANYTHING) could offer herself for Draco and help defeat Lord Voldemort (after all or most of the horcruxes have been destroyed? It will be beyond my imagination how JKR is going to work all this out.

From the editorial: Perhaps if Voldemort had killed her when he had the chance, he might have been able to succeed, but the heart of Ginny Weasley now rules the fate of all.

First, what a cryptic and beautifully stated point. Gift for words, there, gift for words. And I agree. Also, I'm really glad concerning the conclusions you came to about love---when I began reading the editorial, I was set and ready to tear it apart for calling love "stupid" and "simple". I should have known better, lol. I felt much better as I read on ;)

Brandon, I think your essay was good, but I highly doubt that Ginny will be the deciding factor in Voldemort's defeat. Rowling can't have emphasized friendship and family above all else for six straight books, and even ended HBP on that theme, to have the deciding and most important form of love be romantic. It doesn't make logical sense.

Ginny personifies every kind of love though...at first, she was the little sister, the friend, a part of the Weasley family, and Harry loved her as such. Eventually though, he came to realize he had romantic feelings for her. And as far as romantic love to be the deciding factor---it doesn't MATTER what kind of love it is, only that it is love! His love for Ginny WILL most likely be a deciding factor, as much as his love for Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, Sirius, and his parents will be.

I don't think the "power the dark lord knows not" is just love. If this misterious power was love indeed, couldn't Voldie be killed by anybody else too? or does that mean that Harry is the only person who loves? or he loves more than others, or maybe... he's in love with Voldemort!? There has to be something else. Something more extreme.

Something else? Something more extreme than love? I defy anyone to name me a force more extreme than love. Love conquers Death. Fear. Hatred. War. Disease. Evil. Selfishness. Love conquers all, a lesson that is taught to us from the time we're born. And it is not sappy, or cheesy, or simple or stupid, but only True. The whole love thing? That isn't true for just Harry Potter. That's true in real life.

This is a wonderful theory. I love it (excuse the term). It all adds up, when you make Ginny Harry's world. She is, to him, the good in the world that may be lost if he, Harry, doesn't succeed. I think you're completely right - Harry will fight this battle, taking away all his past except for his present love for Ginny. Not only will he fight, but I agree that he may very well lose for Ginny, to save her and the world that he strives to see good in.
-I alo love the idea that there's a sort of Reverse Horcrux. It's exactly what you said; love is a Reverse Horcrux, of sorts. Well coined.
Brilliant. JKR ought to give you major major kudos.

wouldnt it be the other way around? i think that harry would find some way to kill voldemort and save himself, for ginny and would have just given up if it wasnt an issue.

I agree that Ginny will be important in the end. Jo has emphasised love and who does Harry love? Ginny. However, I still don't think Harry will die, simply because he has suffered so much as has been said. Unless Jo is going push a very Frodo/Grey Havens-style ending onto us, where Harry can only find rest by passing through the veil or something, I believe Harry must live and be with Ginny.

Book 7 is DEFINIETLY going to have a happy ending. If you think it won't you're crazy. There's been so much suffering for Harry (and I'm thinking there'll be some more to come in book 7) that an unhappy ending would be like an anti-climax.

So, Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort is due to the abilities transferred to him by Voldemort's initial attack - not due to love. Harry's choice to defeat Voldemort, at whatever cost, is due to love, and it is because of love that he has not turned to the Dark Side.

Brandon, I think your essay was good, but I highly doubt that Ginny will be the deciding factor in Voldemort's defeat. Rowling can't have emphasized friendship and family above all else for six straight books, and even ended HBP on that theme, to have the deciding and most important form of love be romantic. It doesn't make logical sense.
I highly agree with you. Ginny does make Harry's life happier, but I think that we have lately been influenced way too much by the shippers. The world does not revolve around romance, as much as they would like to think so.

Such a good editorial, you're points all made sense and be proud to know that you have converted a resolute, stubborn harry-will-live supporter into a harry-shall-dieee-supporter. It makes perfect sense, I especially loved your reverse Horcrux theory.
Keep up the good work.
(and yes the draco ferret in Crabbes trouser was anything but amusing, bleh.

Ginny personifies every kind of love though...at first, she was the little sister, the friend, a part of the Weasley family, and Harry loved her as such. Eventually though, he came to realize he had romantic feelings for her. And as far as romantic love to be the deciding factor---it doesn't MATTER what kind of love it is, only that it is love! His love for Ginny WILL most likely be a deciding factor, as much as his love for Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, Sirius, and his parents will be.
I agree that his love for Ginny will be a deciding factor. I was arguing against the idea that it will only be Harry's love for Ginny that will have great significance at the end. I believe that Harry's love for Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and the entire Weasley family (and Sirius, Neville, Luna, etc), and their love for him, will be important - not just Harry's love for Ginny.

As always, Brandon, your editorials hover around brilliance...and in reading your editorials I always think I know what direction you are going to go, and then *zing* off you go in some competely other direction. You seem to be heading towards the most obvious answer after some stroke of brilliance, but then you take it in a weird direction.

I'm disappointed to see you're still stuck on this veil thing. Yes, it's a great way to kill someone without having to actually know any magic of any kind, but with that in mind, I think the Dark Lord would be able to keep his body awya from such an item of obvious peril. After seeing how Dumbledore and Voldemort sparred in the lobby of the Ministry, I can't see how Harry would be able to get Lord Voldemort to follow him to his doom.

I think you are totally on track with the Ginny thing, and that the love between Harry and Ginny will be what is the ultimate downfall of Lord Voldemort...and you mentioned one person who is supremely capable of doing this...and we know he owes Harry a debt...and you seem to have overlooked him...Peter Pettigrew.

He is ultimately repulsed by Voldemort, and even Voldemort knows Peter only follows him because he has no place else to go. We've also seen that for as weak as Peter is, he was able to kill Cedric without a second thought on his master's command. This is something that Ginny, Harry, or anybody else on the side of good cannot do. They are unable to kill and split their soul because of indignant hate (as we saw with Harry and Bellatrix in the Ministry.)

I see one of two possible outcomes for Voldemort:

Harry will use himself as a shield for someone (probably Ginny) - just like his mother did with him. In doing so, will give Ginny the same protection that Harry had as a baby. This magic will protect Ginny, who will of course attack Voldemort after killing her boyfriend, and when Voldemort tries to kill her, he will die because his Horcruxes will have been destroyed by then.

Or, Harry will fight the unwinnable fight, and in doing so, the love and honor he displays will be seen by Peter, and Peter will do something to bring about the downfall of Lord Voldemort. Either killing him himself, or giving Harry the information he needs to bring about Voldemort's downfall. Even as I write this I'm having a hard time putting this together in my head, but I see his role as being very significant.

wouldnt it be the other way around? i think that harry would find some way to kill voldemort and save himself, for ginny and would have just given up if it wasnt an issue.I agree with you here. Brandon, if it is time for Harry to be repaid for all of his suffering and sacrifice, shouldn't he be rewarded by both defeating Voldemort and living a normal(well normal by wizarding standards) life? I do not believe he will die, he will reap the benefits of being such a selfless giver.:clap:

So I have been reading everyone's comments, and I think some of you may be blowing some smoke up someone's you know what. I've reread this a few times now, and I still haven't found a "theory," or at the very least, a unique one. Other than mentioning Ginny, and the veil, again, what is unique about this editorial that hasn't already been said 300 times in the Divination forums. I was just really looking forward to a unique idea of how Harry would defeat Voldemort, but i still don't see it in the article.

Maybe someone could point it out to me?

Harry will use himself as a shield for someone (probably Ginny) - just like his mother did with him. In doing so, will give Ginny the same protection that Harry had as a baby. This magic will protect Ginny, who will of course attack Voldemort after killing her boyfriend, and when Voldemort tries to kill her, he will die because his Horcruxes will have been destroyed by then.

If something like this turns out to be what happens, then I'll have to say that JK Rowling is out of ideas. Everybody keeps thinking there will be some kind of sacrifice ala Lily Potter, it could be Ginny, Ron, Snape, Peter, you name it, I've heard it all... but c'mon... do you really think JK is going to do the same thing again? wouldn't that be like, recycling? I agree that love will play a part (like many times before) but I just hope no one commits suicide in order to save the world.

I'm sorry but this theory is not really that original. I totally agree with you, onemanarmy.

So I have been reading everyone's comments, and I think some of you may be blowing some smoke up someone's you know what. I've reread this a few times now, and I still haven't found a "theory," or at the very least, a unique one. Other than mentioning Ginny, and the veil, again, what is unique about this editorial that hasn't already been said 300 times in the Divination forums. I was just really looking forward to a unique idea of how Harry would defeat Voldemort, but i still don't see it in the article.

Maybe someone could point it out to me?


WELL SAID!!!

Maybe it's just me, but lately, aside with the Snape theos, Brandon has lost his touch! I mean he has gone totally cornball on us with the Harry's sacrefice for Ginny, n the whole Ginny getting pregnant, and all his book7 predictions. I seriously think he is smitten or in love. :lol:

I mean Harry (17) and Ginny (16) are no Romeo n Juliet....I don't think they were intended to be. The love theories are standing on thin ice, they have nothing to stand on. Cept maybe teenage lust n puppydog love. I think he should just chill and let go of the corn. JK is a talented woman, she doesn't need to have a cliche as a climax. She's creative enough to end off with something inspiring and influential, because the end is what you are really remembered by!

And I desprately wish for the pre-HBP days of this column. It used to be my fave, but now it's heavily focused on shipping, which i believe has as much importance in the books as the comic relief parts. Bring back in the important issues....LEAVE the corn. Harry/Ginny cute....not everlasting love. Actually i take back what i said from Brandon being in love....he obviously doesn't underestand the unescapable time consuming effects of real love.

WELL SAID!!!

Maybe it's just me, but lately, aside with the Snape theos, Brandon has lost his touch! I mean he has gone totally cornball on us with the Harry's sacrefice for Ginny, n the whole Ginny getting pregnant, and all his book7 predictions. I seriously think he is smitten or in love. :lol:

I mean Harry (17) and Ginny (16) are no Romeo n Juliet....I don't think they were intended to be. The love theories are standing on thin ice, they have nothing to stand on. Cept maybe teenage lust n puppydog love. I think he should just chill and let go of the corn. JK is a talented woman, she doesn't need to have a cliche as a climax. She's creative enough to end off with something inspiring and influential, because the end is what you are really remembered by!

And I desprately wish for the pre-HBP days of this column. It used to be my fave, but now it's heavily focused on shipping, which i believe has as much importance in the books as the comic relief parts. Bring back in the important issues....LEAVE the corn. Harry/Ginny cute....not everlasting love. Actually i take back what i said from Brandon being in love....he obviously doesn't underestand the unescapable time consuming effects of real love.

I'm not a shipper - never have been, never will be. But when it's slammed in our faces book after book, that what Harry possesses above any other person is the ability to Love, and that this is the power that Voldemort does not understand and we know that Harry is the only person who can defeat the Dark Lord - then the only thing that we can really assume is that love will play a part in the end. That being the case, it's hard not to talk about the characters and how love has influenced them and how it may play a role in the end.

Here's a theory nobody has put out there - maybe someone like Ginny or Peter will try and kill Voldemort, and Harry will sacrifice himself to save him - thus showing Voldemort what love is all about, and it will consume him until he either stops being evil, or destroys him.

Now before you laugh, think about it. We have seen Harry feel sorry for the younger Voldemort and even the adult version of him...sorry about his upbriging, about his struggles growing up. Obviously he's not sorry he killed his parents, but I think he feels pity for him and may be the one person who could understand what its like not knowing your parents and being raised alone.

"Second, though you started to mention the locked room in the department of mysteries where they studied love, you never mentioned that perhaps this room will be valuable in the destruction of Voldy. Maybe harry will throw him in their first, weakening him (Dumbledore said he Voldy couldn't stand posessing Harry's body for more than a few moments because it was so full of love in OotP). Or maybe he'll go their to learn something, and figure out he already knows everything he needs about love. I guess i don't see why JKR would mention it without it being significant."

My thoughts exactly. I think when we think of things in book 5 that will pop up again, we've given too much thought to the veil and not enough to the locked room in the DOM. Why does it have to be Voldemort who goes through the veil? Snape killed Dumbledor, remember? If he's caught, I'm assuming there will be a trial, and the presence of the veil in the center of a room that is set up for others to apparently witness an execution may mean that we'll see it again in that sense, vs the scene for the final battle. If Harry can get Voldemort into the locked room, we may get to see Voldemort die in a painful and agonizing way, which I personally will be quite pleased with....

what an amazing idiot! since when has love been simple.

I don't think Brandon is an idiot! If he were, he'd probably never have this editorial column. Why people always use such stuff like offending comments when they disagree with somebody? Everybody has her/his own opinion. Moreover, if you've read the editorial till the end, then you should know that it's about love power.
Personally, I think that love is a great power indeed. Take, for example, Romeo and Juliet, the Master and Margarita, well... King Kong (the list may be rather long). All these people (and one primate) sacrifised themselves for love. It's a divine gift and one should take care of it. Don't call it simple, please. Of course Harry is not a Romeo nor he is a Kong (we should all be grateful to J.K. Rowling for that!), but he is a boy, as Brandon rightly noticed, who lived without love for 11 years, until that important day when he received a letter from Hogwarts. Since then his life's changed completely. Yes, he really have somebody to live for. I believe he will try to save the people who's given him those wonderful moments of love to remember. So it is Harry who needs "this fight more" to ensure a more secure world for Ginny and Co. He knows he's the chosen one to fullfill the prophecy and kill Voldemort. He can't just continue to live happily with it. We may call it his burden, obligation as well as consider Harry a Horcrux. But he's the key. Nothing can be changed.
Honestly, I don't think Harry would die in the end, but Jo's full of surprises, so we can't be 100% sure.

P.S. I really liked your Reverse Horcrux theory. Brilliant!!!

"""""The answer is simple. As I said before, Harry has lived a cursed life. He has known nothing but suffering and pain, yet somehow he still manages to see the good in people. It was this power that led him to spare Peter Pettigrew. It was this power that let him empathize with the Nevilles and Lunas and Dobbys of this world. """"

you are still too young to understand how unusual you are, harry

dumbledore said.

but he acts very "usual" and normal...
poor harry. he is going through too much in life. he better get ginny in the end! at least at the end of the story we should see him finally getting to be happy

I understand that love is extremely powerful, but cornball love isn't. Showing the power of love however doesn't have to be cheezy!!!! Did anyone think it was cheezy when Voldie couldn't posses Harry due to his love for Sirius? NO! It's only cornball when you take puppydog love n force it into a Romeo n Juliet (or Tristan&Isolde) custome. It doesn't work like that. If JK had wanted that kind of love between Harry and Ginny then she should spend a great portion of book 7 on the connection btw the two, something she barely skimmed in HBP.

Love is extremely powerful and a beautiful way to end things with, i get that. But in the HP books we know, this love would be more realistic if its Harry's love for Ron n Herm (his true soulmates ^_^), Ddore, Sirius, his parents, or even his compassion for Cedric and his death. Harry isn't by any means consumed by his love for Ginny, and to end off the series pretending that he is cornballs the whole plot. It would be a great mistake.

Here is a theory:

What if its the end, Voldie is about to kill Harry. Harry's wand is gone and he has no way of protecting himself. Voldie raises his wand and shouts "aveda kadevra" and out of the blue Snape Mr.-evil-cruel-traitor-who-killed-Ddore jumps in front of the curse and dies in place of Harry. Why? Harry ponders later, and Lupin has the answer. He realizes just how deep Snape's feelings ran for Lily. Yet even he cannot truly undrestand it, as Snape's love for Lily had for once out-rivaled his hate for James.

not the best theo, but this 'love' ending would have a MUCH greater impact as the love being displayed is somewhat acient (20 years old at least) and certainly proven to be everlasting. I seriously doubt JK has the book space to solidify what is btw Ginny n Harry in the one book that is the busiest of them all. I think his love for Ron n Herm would work much better minus the cheeze.

In other words, by sacrificing yourself to save someone else, you create a force so positively charged (that is, charged with love and goodness), that evil cannot stand it. Lily had the upside; Voldemort had the downside. There are two sides to every Schwartz.
:rotfl: :rotfl: LOVE the reference!!! :clap:

Great editorial! I smirked at your "stupid" love reference, but admit I was slightly disappointed in HBP when Dumbledore said, "yes, Harry, just love" but then realized I was being stupid. What else would defeat brains, power, immense arrogance and evil besides something that makes you vulnerable and do things that aren't necessarily the most logical! It's poetic justice not to mention a great life lesson. Love is most important!

I personally would love it if Harry sends Voldy into the locked room and the room suffocates Voldemort to death - then Harry lives and no trips into the veil. Though, I'm a realist and know the veil was there for a reason. Perhaps Harry can make a trip into it but make it back? That would be awesome!!

I would love it if Ginny were more involved and accompanied them because she has her strengths, but I don't know if I think she will. I think this is a trio story and Ginny, Neville, & Luna will play in the background. Ginny is the reason to come back so to speak. But we'll see. :shrug: I just want Harry to live!!! Why does it have to be sacrificial love in the sense that the sacrifice takes place? If he's just willing to sacrifice, the love is just as strong. (crosses fingers for a happy ending)

Ginny is not going to be in the background,and Harry will not shield and protect her(Before dying).She is strong and equal to Harry.She also has a mind of her own .Harry ,and some of you guys might be surprised...

Well after reading HBP, I think it is clear.

The power Voldy has no clue about IS love.

And Dumbledore explained that perfectly. calling love SIMPLE?:lol: You have no idea.

Love was never simple. The life without love is simple. JK Rowling knows what matters in real life and she passes these messages into her books.

Voldy is a picture of real power-obsessed tyrants who care about themselves.


But the fact remains that only when u are UNSELFISH, only when you stop wanting power, only when you love others soooo much that you don´t give a damn ´bout yourself - only then can you stop feeling unhappy/sorry for yourself/ misunderstood.

LOVE is more than Avada Kedavra, more than Hydrogen Bomb, more than killing of 6 milions of Jews, more than anything in one´s life.

Yeah, you didn't explain what (I think) you meant when you said love was stupid and simple. Love, in fact, is neither. Instead I think you are talking about the use of love as a tool in the final confrontation. It would be stupid and simple for JKR to use love in such a cliche manner, but love itself is not, and does not have to be stupid and simple.

Personally, I was not as touched by their relationship as you seemed to be. Relationships in HBP were rampant and overdone, imo. The change was too sudden and it seemed as if many of the side plots of HBP were JKR thinking, 1: "Oh **** there are so many loose ends!" and 2: "Oh **** I need to make love be important." ...kind of like the latest Star Wars in fact.

i agree love is not simple.

There are many kinds of love, and there are many reactions to love.

you can be motivated by love, even sickened by it, you can also be distracted by it and helped by it. Love can make you do things you could not do normally, Lilly's scacrifice is only one element.

Harry has always been motivated by love. He can see in others,where the lack of it has warped them (Voldemort) and he can see those who have been helped by being loved.

what Voldemort can not understand is cost vs benefit, he sees no benefit in love because the only exampled he has seen have been negitive. He sees it as a weakness and something that can hold you back.

However he has been given a taste of how love can motivate you, e.g. book 1 Harry's love for his perants help him make his decision.

p.s.

1. I was struck by some thoughts, Harry is willing to sacrifice himself because he believes that saving anothers live is worth it. Which is one reason Voldemort could never win, Voldemort would run at the first sign of danger to himself, Harry would stay no matter the cost to himself.

2. Also no-one has mentioned the mirror of Erised, it shows us what we want to see, what would Voldemort seee if he were confronted with it, and would he see what a farce his life has been without love?

3. The prophecy says that Harry has the power to vanquish the 'Dark lord' but if Voldemort abandoned his quest for power (gave up) would that no constitute 'Vanquishing aswell?', for Voldemort is simply a mask for Riddle, what would happen if he were unmasked?

To the self-proclaimed most thorough reader of HP, Brandon, Fleur already said that Ginny would be a bridesmaid; she was fretting about what colour the bridesmaid dresses should be so that they would go with Ginny's hair.

It was kinda shipping, but not without a reason, and it was very entertaining, thanks! :D

Dumbledore told many times that love is an actual power, it saved Harry too, it killed Sirius, lack of it made Riddle a monster and so on. Love is said to help Harry win. Harry's relationship with Ginny happend quite fast, but JK made it clear, I think, that it's not (much) less important than friendship. She couldn't introduce it earlier, because she wanted it to happen after experience with other girl, Ginny loved Harry for a long time, their understanding was clear at the funaral, Harry sarcificed his happiness for Ginny's security, thought about her being in the cave and helped her after leaving the tower, running after Snape (or what you call him). I think JKR showed us that Harry's new relationship, usually powerfull and happy, did and will count during the final battle too. And I believe she will handle it in a good fashon.

Second, I think that maybe not Ginny will be the crucial factor in the battle, but Harry's ability to love that way, so many people, to sacrifice for others, to stay alive after. I think in the end Harry will need all the life debts (including Ginny's) and bond he have with people who love him.

Originally Posted by WarriorEowyn
So, Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort is due to the abilities transferred to him by Voldemort's initial attack - not due to love. Harry's choice to defeat Voldemort, at whatever cost, is due to love, and it is because of love that he has not turned to the Dark Side.

Brandon, I think your essay was good, but I highly doubt that Ginny will be the deciding factor in Voldemort's defeat. Rowling can't have emphasized friendship and family above all else for six straight books, and even ended HBP on that theme, to have the deciding and most important form of love be romantic. It doesn't make logical sense.
I don't think so. Harry's "power the Dark Lord knows not" is love. The abilities transferred to him by Voldemort are the fulfillment of "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal" portion of the prophecy. Harry was given tools (like Parseltongue) that have, without a doubt, proved useful to Harry, but it's ultimately love that gives Harry the burning desire to fight Voldemort.

As for Ginny, where does romance lead if not to life-long friendship and becoming a family? Even though Harry and Ginny feel romantic attraction towards each other, they are still friends as well. (The Ron/Lavendar "romance" is the perfect contrast to compare.) I don't think Harry's relationship with Ginny detracts from his intense friendship with Ron and Hermione at all. If anything, having him with Ginny ensures that all of them will remain quite as close as they'd like because Harry will be part of the Weasley family as will Hermione. Of course, if they all felt just platonic friendship for each other, they still could have remained close, but family obligations (their future spouses and forthcoming children) would have taken up their time. It would be more difficult to carve out time for one another than it would be if they are all one big happy Weasley family! ;)

Dear onemanarmy,
I meant that she could have put charms on Harry long before Voldemort came, not when she knew he was in her house. She knew the prophesy and she knew Voldemort might come after Harry. JKR has said that Lily did not know what she was doing in sacrificing herself and I believe that and I believe as you believe that she would have died before she would let anyone hurt her son. I'm just saying maybe her death, along with spells she may have cast beforehand, may have protected Harry more than simply Lily choosing to die. Voldemort says that it was old magic but what would he know about the old magic related to love.
This has been puzzling me. JKR said that Lilly didn't know her sacrifice would save Harry, that no-one knew such a thing was possible because it had never happened before. When Voldemort explains it as being old magic, he also says something to the effect that he had forgotten, and should have known what might happen. That doesn't seem consistent with JKR's comments.

This has been puzzling me. JKR said that Lilly didn't know her sacrifice would save Harry, that no-one knew such a thing was possible because it had never happened before. When Voldemort explains it as being old magic, he also says something to the effect that he had forgotten, and should have known what might happen. That doesn't seem consistent with JKR's comments.
Voldemort's reference to "old magic" is the blood charm that Dumbledore placed on Harry given that Lily sacrificed herself for him. That sacrifice gave Harry a lingering protection so that Dumbledore could enhance it by placing a charm on him - that charm, of course, being that, as long as Harry's "home" is with the Dursley's (Lily's blood = Petunia) then Harry cannot be touched by Voldemort. That is what the "old magic" is referring to, not Lily's sacrifice. Hope that makes sense. :)

As Harry has matured in all things relationship, his first crush - characterised by the usual butterflies and stomach flips - gradually peters out to become a no Cho zone. Enter Ginny, and with it the sudden realisation that something else is behind HP's feelings - less crush, more true love?

Harry's scar is a distinctive lightning bolt; an obvious choice, one might argue, but with perhaps a little more to it. When Harry realises his true feelings for Ginny after discovering her snogging in the passageway (HBP, p270), it is stated that "He felt disorientated, dizzy; being struck by a lightning bolt must feel something like this."

Such a deliberate and pointed choice of words must be more than mere coincidence, and it is too close to cliche not to have deeper significance; it ties him to the arcane magic of his mother's sacrifice out of love (which led to his scar from the backfiring curse), and also demonstrates a rite of passage through to adulthood. Perhaps, one might say, the concrete exposition in the hero - finally - of the magic wot the Dark Lord knows not. This could be part of the case for Harry having more knowledge than he realises. In this context, the symbolism of the lightning bolt scar almost makes Harry love personified.

Of course, with love comes jealousy, and that also seems to play a big part, particularly in HBP with Harry's internal monster early in the book; one can argue that love and jealousy shape Snape's character - love of Lily, jealousy of James - and that even Riddle himself has felt the potent effects - why else would he choose to offer Lily the chance to live? But that's another issue.

I love the editorials, and this is my first posting.

I am no shipper, but it seems to me that there is a possibility of a very interesting twist at the Bill/Phlem (errr) Fleur wedding. I mean Gabrielle, who has a thing for Harry and who is part veela. So, to everyone who sees Ginny and Harry getting back together at the wedding, brace yourselves for a blond/French/veela complication. Provided the wedding does not have uninvited Death Eater guests (I think it may - all those wizards in one place), it could be very amusing. I could see Gabrielle aiming for Harry but blasting Ron with her Veela charm, instead....

hgfan, that's funny. Poor Ron is so susceptible isn't he? But he'd better watch it because I'm not sure how much more Hermione can take! :lol: I also thought there might be that angle coming to us in book 7 with Gabrielle, who, by now is grown up a bit :eyebrows: I can see Ginny going ballistic because Harry will be trying to avoid her but probably paying Gabby some attention because he's not attached to her emotionally as he is to Ginny. However, all Ginny will notice is that she's being ignored and Harry's smiling at Gabby. Look out! :wow: :scared: I think Harry would rather face the Death Eaters than an angry Ginny. :elaugh:

hgfan, that's funny. Poor Ron is so susceptible isn't he? But he'd better watch it because I'm not sure how much more Hermione can take! :lol: I also thought there might be that angle coming to us in book 7 with Gabrielle, who, by now is grown up a bit :eyebrows: I can see Ginny going ballistic because Harry will be trying to avoid her but probably paying Gabby some attention because he's not attached to her emotionally as he is to Ginny. However, all Ginny will notice is that she's being ignored and Harry's smiling at Gabby. Look out! :wow: :scared: I think Harry would rather face the Death Eaters than an angry Ginny. :elaugh:

justaHPfan and hgfan - considering that in GOF, Harry thought that Gabrielle was "a girl who looked no older than eight", I would be surprised that Harry would even take any notice of her, in that way. She would be at the most 11, and probably, still 10 at the time of the wedding. He might treat her as a younger sister, though. Look how old Ginny was, before he stopped thinking of her as Ron's little sister, and Fleur's "little sister" is even younger. But she might want to try out her veela charms on all the young men at the wedding, just to see the effect.

justaHPfan and hgfan - considering that in GOF, Harry thought that Gabrielle was "a girl who looked no older than eight", I would be surprised that Harry would even take any notice of her, in that way. She would be at the most 11, and probably, still 10 at the time of the wedding. He might treat her as a younger sister, though. Look how old Ginny was, before he stopped thinking of her as Ron's little sister, and Fleur's "little sister" is even younger. But she might want to try out her veela charms on all the young men at the wedding, just to see the effect.
Oh, man. I had the whole scenario in my mind too! :sigh: :rotfl: So much for that brilliant idea! :rolleyes: :elaugh: I had forgotten she was so young!!!! This is really making me laugh. Thanks for that because I needed one!!!

I am really confused right now but I have a question and I really hope someone will answer.

Ok here it goes...

Could the power that the dark lord knows not be love and maybe, since he thinks he knows all magic a power he doesn't have?
Oh.. and i always wanted to ask that Voldemort said in the GoF that his mother didn't have to die, but does that mean that his dad did? Why?

Harry is the one who has to defeat Voldemort. Th love of all of his friends and mentors will matter to him, his own acceptance of who he is and what he has to do will matter to him, but it's not just going to be Ginny that motivates Harry.

Unless she dies and that's the last straw for him, but I still think he is so intermingled with Voldemort that he might have to die, too. I don't know, of course, but Ginny gets WAY too much emphasis, in my opinion.

Hi there!

This is my very first post, so please be indulgent (I've not had the time to read all the theories yet, and I didn't know exactly where to place my message, for it concerns various subjects, so I finally decided to leave it here).

First of all, I must aknowledge that I definitely LOVE your theories, Brandon. I'm a regular reader of all the editorials in general, and of underground lake in particular. And, dear Brandon, your theory about love pleases me a lot (even if I continue to think that "the power the dark lord knows not" is, indeed, love...)

But I'd like to come back to some points EVERYONE seems to have missed (I may sound a bit over comfident, there, but the only reason I say that it that I haven't seen any of them discussed yet...). I know all we do here is about interpreting Jo's assessments in and besides the books, but at this point, I wonder if we haven't been, kind of, over-interpreting some things.

Well it hasn't lead me yet to any valid theory, but it rises some interrogations that put in questions many theories I've read so far. I may add that, say, I haven't really enough time to consecrate to the elaboration of theories (sorry)... So it may NEVER lead me to any one :D. I just hope it may help making things going on -and of course, that it will keep entertaining us until that fatidic date of 2007 (?) at which all our dreams (or will it be our nightmares?) will come true -or appear to have been only foolish hallucinations. Let's get started, then.

My first one is that, well, true, the prophecy does say that Harry is the only one who'll be able to defeat V. And it does say that one of them (ie. Harry or V.) has to die, definitely. But:
- it does not say WHO has to die,
- hence, it does not say V. must forcently die to be defeated, (in addition, remember what Dumbeldore said to V. while they were fighting at the MoM: "...you're wrong Tom, there ARE things worse than death..." -it may not be the exact words, but hey, that was in substance what he said)
- neither does it say Harry has to KILL V. by himself...
Where does all these lead me? Well for that point, I don't know: so far, it only leaves me whith questions.

My second concerns TFPWWNBN. I think that whatever side he is, Harry will have to forgive him. I may be wrong, but if it is true that the main force of Harry is love, and that his main characteristic is -as it was of Dumbeldore- to see the good in every man (except in V, in who there isn't any left), then he has to see it in TFPWWNBN too. Warning, anyway! I'm not trying to turn the plot in a "return of the Jedi" way ("father! I know there is still some good in you!"); but there is forcently some good left in TFPWWNBN, without what he would be V.'s equal in evil, what this last can't accept (imagine, for an ego of that dimension!). Not mentionning the fact that if what Dumbeldore said about life debts is true, there must have been a link between TFPWWNBN and James as well as there is one between Harry and Wormtail. And has it been said anywhere that this link was resolved? No, ma'am, nowhere!
So I do think, as very many of you (and as Brandon in particular), that Harry will have to fight our very dear FPWWNBN again. But I'm not sure it will be to kill him, but most probably to learn from him, in any way ("...keep your mouth shut and your mind closed...", remember?). What d'ya think 'bout tha'?

Finally, about Harry being a Horcrux, I must admit that at first, I was seduced by the Idea. But there is something that does not fit in: how come would it be possible for V. not to have figured it out, if it were the case? Don't forget that, so far, HE is the SOLE ONE to really know EVERY WHEREBOUTS of the Horcruxes: how they work, how many he has made, where they are, how to turn an object into one, maby even how to destroy them... And he would have made such a mistake as having turned Harry into a Horcrux unadvertedly? And he wouldn't even have noticed it? Even after having seen Harry's scar? And he would have tried anyway to kill Harry (thus running the risk to destroy by himself one of his precious Horcruxes)? Nah, I don't believe it (unless we assume he is REALLY very stupid, what we all know he's not. Definitely not).

But I think the scar has something to do with it, anyway. Think about it: Dumbeldore himself has destroyed one, and could not prevent from being almost killed in the operation. RAB has STOLEN one (but we don't know wheter he has DESTROYED it or not, and he most likely has NOT). But there is one we know for sure that has been destroyed. And NO ONE was hurt in ANYWAY by its shattering... yes, you got it: the Diary. And who destroyed it? Bingo: Harry. What if that scar, (Harry's special gift from V.) had made him the ONLY ONE able to destroy the horcruxes unharmed? In other words: wouldn't THAT make Harry THE ONLY ONE to be able to DEFEAT V.? Not because he would be able to stand V. feet to feet in a duel (which we already know he is definitely NOT the only one to have the capacity: think to V. vs Dumbeldore at the MoM. And think, too, to Harry's and Neville's parents: haven't they "Thrice defied the dark lord"? And none of them were killed in the operation... That doesn't mean they could have vainquished him, but they definitely resisted him, isn't it?). But he is the only one able, as stated by RAB, to make V. "MORTAL once more". And when the Dark Lord is mortal, ANYONE could avada kedavra him, or transperce him with a sword, or send him through the Veil, or blow him, or have him eaten by a giant cuncumber, or whatever. I insist on it: ANYONE!!! So will harry defeat V.? yes I think so. Will he be the one to give him the coup de grâce? Hum! I'm not that sure about that... As Brandon has stated in another editorial, Harry is far from being a match for V.'s powers. However, some others are... Lupin, for example. Or, and THAT would definitely be a twist, what about TFPWWNBN?

Think about that, friends, and well, just remember Brandon's favourite formula(with which I agree 200%!!!) The wheels are in motion!!!

Choum.

Well, you brought up a lot of interesting, and like, totally brilliant thoughts. im not sold on the idea of harry dying, but whatever. but when you said reverse horcrux, i dont quite understand that, i mean...you add more to your soul? i would think it would strenghten it..but maybe i read wrong. i do think that your theory is facinating....snaps for brandon!!

Wonderful editorial, Brandon. I've been working my way through the Underground Lake, having never read any of them before, and I am thoroughly impressed with your insights.

I've always thought, since Day/Book 1 that we would hear more from Ginny Weasley. And I am glad the story has followed pat with what I had hoped, a strong-willed, smart, feisty young woman & a nice counter to Hermione.

Anyway...I think the love factor with Ginny is different from all the others because she represents something entirely different than the love Harry knows from his parents or Dumbledore or Sirius or Mrs. Weasley or Ron & Hermione. His parents love is in the past and only vaguely tangible in stories told him by other people. Dumbledore, Sirius, and Mrs. Weasley had/have a protective, nurturing love. Ron & Hermione's love, love in the present, is one of camaraderie, to reference LOTR, a fellowship.


With Ginny, as opposed to with Cho, he senses the great possibilities of love, intimacy, and passion in a way he hasn't known them before. I think, for the first time he can actually picture the future. Whether they get married and have 12 children or decide they are better off as friends than lovers, I do think we witnessed Harry's (and Ginny's) first love. And he quickly realized how dangerous it was given what happend to Sirius (one example of a fate worse than death, watching someone you love die, and worse be at fault for it). Rather than experience that again he would distance himself from it, in order to protect them both.

But I believe he will learn that this love, along with all the others, is not a weakness, but as Dumbledore has attempted to point out, his greatest asset. I think he will slowly realize that distancing himself from love and being loved, weakens it, insomuch that it feels further away and less tangible and as a result allow it to be near him. Attributes like faith, courage and determiniation. when mixed with love, can increase in power "7"-fold, in fact I'd go so far as to argue they can only nominally exist without love.

I don't think the final confrontation will revolve around Harry and Ginny's love specifically, but Love will be a key element in its success.

Awsome editorial! I'll be thinking a lot about this before the book comes out. I think everything will turn out something like you said, though we are not sure whether or not Harry will die. Not to mention Rowling has this habit of hitting her readers with a blow, for all we know she could be planning the opposite. She's very unpredictable, I even remember the shockers in the third and fourth book when I first read them. Rowling is brilliant at being unpredictable,and that's what I love about her writting!

This is my theory about how Voldemort dies....yes...dies....after looking at and reading over several theories over many HP websites.....

How about this? Harry and Voldemort battle in the final confrontation at Hogwarts or Godric’s Hollow or Department of Mysteries with DE’s and the Order members and in attempting to curse one another, Voldemort and Harry’s wands perform Priori Incantatum and Voldemort and everyone around watch as Harry’s past spells come out and it is revealed that he has destroyed Voldemorts horcruxes. Everyone around realizes that Voldemort is now mortal and simply rush him…Voldemort dies through Harry’s love (which turns out to be his numerous friends) and he doesn’t have to perform AK…or die…it is all good…