Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry

Discussion for Spinner's End #9 - A Profitable Line of Inquiry (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se09.shtml) by Lady Lupin.

(Old discussion of this article can be found HERE (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=77812).)

Hooray LadyLupin! Well done on recieving your own column! When's the next entry due? :)


Has anyone found any new clues for Aberforth?

Has anyone found any new clues for Aberforth?

Not yet! But I haven't given up!

that was very interesting...i like reading your editorials

i liked the idea about dumbledore's family being slaughtered by Grindelwald(or he forced Dumbledore to make it)...i started to look for some clues about Aberforth and him being 'a bit odd'....i wonder what he was doing with the goats?!?

Has anyone found any new clues for Aberforth?

Aberforth remains quite the engima even after going back through all the books. However, in my reread of book 6 I did see something that struck me that I had really not considered before. Toward the end of the book when Harry and Dumbledore go by the Hogs Head en route to the Cave, the sign on the Hogs Head creaks slightly, but there is NO wind. I do not know what to make of this if anything, however it is quite possible that it is a clue. The wording is such as could be found in a mystery novel. I need to go back and look at descriptions of Hogs Head signs and compare all the times we see the Hogs Head. Good grief, now I even think I sound ridiculous with this Harry Potter thing!:)

Posted by DDFAN:
Aberforth remains quite the engima even after going back through all the books. However, in my reread of book 6 I did see something that struck me that I had really not considered before. Toward the end of the book when Harry and Dumbledore go by the Hogs Head en route to the Cave, the sign on the Hogs Head creaks slightly, but there is NO wind. I do not know what to make of this if anything, however it is quite possible that it is a clue. The wording is such as could be found in a mystery novel. I need to go back and look at descriptions of Hogs Head signs and compare all the times we see the Hogs Head. Good grief, now I even think I sound ridiculous with this Harry Potter thing!
LoL! I'm sure there are many ridiculously obsessive fans who could immediately give you a list of all the times things have creaked in the series, and explain how this shows that the Death Eaters are communicating by squeak.

On the other hand, I must dash and read that passage and compile my own list... :) Thanks for the new lead.

LoL! I'm sure there are many ridiculously obsessive fans who could immediately give you a list of all the times things have creaked in the series, and explain how this shows that the Death Eaters are communicating by squeak.

On the other hand, I must dash and read that passage and compile my own list... :) Thanks for the new lead.

:lol: Obsessive? Why, whatever do you mean?? Just because my 8yo son felt the need to remind me that the books aren't real.... just in case. :D

On that note, I scoured through POA and OOTP and found a description of the sign in OOTP, from when they meet to form the DA. The sign is described in some detail. Here it creaks, but wind is present. However, now we can't say if it truly creaked because of the wind or if it was whatever makes it creak in HBP. To be honest, I don't think anything from the Seer Overheard on isn't precisely worded. I think the timing is all going to be so important , and there are so many details that need filling in, that every sentence and every word was more carefully chosen even than usual. We could say it is a red herring, but as there is no explanation for the creaking, and the Hog's Head is connected with our mysterious friend Aberforth, and it is the final bizarre events of HBP, I'm not buying it.

But I still don't know what to make of Aberforth, except that I am sure he is important, perhaps even pivotal, and I don't believe he is what has been described to us so far. One way or the other, he is a front for something.

And as for Albus not knowing whether or not his brother can read... honestly... what a smart alec, having fun at our expense! ;) I love his sense of humor anyway, though!

OK, I've been back through the references to the Hog's Head, and it seems that every time we see the pub the sign is always described, and it is always creaking. This even includes the brief glimpse Harry has of the pub from the Knight Bus in OotP. The bus races past and Harry sees the sign for a split second, but it is still described as creaking in the winter wind. Surely there's no way that Harry could have heard the sign from on board the Knight Bus? As I read through the other mentions of the sign, I was quite amazed. I think there's something in this.

So why would the sign creak, even when there's no wind? I would say that even on the hottest, stillest summer evening there would still be thermals rising from the ground that could make the sign shift slightly. But a more magical thought occured to me. What if, as Harry and Dumbledore come round the corner and see the pub, someone has just disapparated from beneath the sign? Disapparating frequently causes a popping sound. It's my opinion that the volume of the sound is connected to the skill of the apparator. Dumbledore apparates silently during his Ministry duel with Voldemort, but when Mundungus disapparates from Privet Drive in OotP the noise is so loud the Muggles think a car has backfired. The odd thing about this is that Harry recognises the sound as being the same as when Dobby disappears, and you'd think Dobby would be an expert apparator. But still, the description served the story at that time.

Anyway, my whole point is that if someone disapparated from under the Hog's Head sign, they did so silently and so should be a skilled wizard. Also they were probably under an Invisibility Cloak. I think there are many people who it could have been: a) someone from the Ministry spying on the Hog's Head and/or Dumbledore; b) someone from the Order posted there on Dumbledore's orders to keep an eye on the Hog's Head or to watch out for Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts; c) one of the Death Eaters or Malfoy's cronies watching out for Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts; d) Aberforth, who was waiting for Dumbledore to arrive at the pub, having been tipped off by Dumbledore in the five minutes that Dumbledore sent Harry off to fetch his Cloak.

EDIT: Sorry, what I meant to add above was that the popping noise suggests that as the person disappears the air rushes in to fill the space they have just vacated, creating the sharp sound. This rush of air is what I think has made the sign move on that still summer night in HBP.

Well, I think that's a good start. Any thoughts?

Okay -- you've done my work for me! I have yet to make it to look up the signs. But it seems to me that something described everytime we see it is significant and it is especially significant that the sign is creaking when there is NO WIND. So, what is going on with the sign? It could be someone invisible as you have noted. It could also involve time travel such as we see in POA. Or perhaps there is some underground secret passage under all that filth in the Bar that looks as though it is centuries old! Perhaps the opening or closing of a passage somewhere is somehow linked to the creaking sign? In terms of WHO the invisible person would be. I tend to think that it is somehow related to what Dumbledore is doing in the sense that I think timing is very important. It could have something to do with someone saying, "OK" they are here at the Hogs Head about to go for the cave, time for part X to be set in motion.

The odd thing about this is that Harry recognises the sound as being the same as when Dobby disappears, and you'd think Dobby would be an expert apparator. But still, the description served the story at that time.



Since you cannot apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts grounds, I think that what Dobby is doing is something different from apparation.

OK, I've been back through the references to the Hog's Head, and it seems that every time we see the pub the sign is always described, and it is always creaking. This even includes the brief glimpse Harry has of the pub from the Knight Bus in OotP. The bus races past and Harry sees the sign for a split second, but it is still described as creaking in the winter wind. Surely there's no way that Harry could have heard the sign from on board the Knight Bus? As I read through the other mentions of the sign, I was quite amazed. I think there's something in this.

<gasp> I missed the bit with the Knight bus!! That is bizarre that Harry would hear it in the bus, is it not? Nice find! Yes, there is something going on here. I like the "invisible entity" idea, and I like your explanation as to the sound of apparition (and other forms of coming and going such as with Dobby). I had noticed the difference in sound, and wondered if what we heard on Privet Drive that night was actually Mundungus, or something else, because it was so loud. Your theory would explain that. The idea of a sudden vacuum creating a rush of air movement makes complete sense. I also like the mention DDFAN made of tunnels.

The Inn was the HQ of the Goblin Rebellion of 1600-something or other (probably 1642-ish to coincide with the English Civil War, Cromwell and all that?), and given the Goblins' ability for digging tunnels and hiding things underground a la Gringotts and the need for secrecy required in such a rebellion, I am betting that there are some pretty interesting tunnels underneath the Hog's Head. So, I wonder who owned the Inn back then?:eyebrows: Interesting that it is associated with a group of beings wanting equitable and fair treatment, and now seemingly run by a Dumbledore....but I digress. :)

My point is if there is a tunnel underneath that sign, any movement or pressure changes within could cause the movement above. If that is the case, there has been a great deal of unseen movement going on there for quite some time.

What gives with the sign? The Aberforth situation is weird and puzzling enough; now we have the sign business. My suspicion meter is well into the red zone but my answer meter reading is wildly tossing to and fro as though it were crossing the Bermuda Triangle. ;) I am missing something...

In regard to the name Grindlewald and its meaning, the Grendle was a flesh-eating monster in the Beowulf epic. (Was a science major but needed a survey lit course and chose the European Epic.) So in seeing Grindlewald I mistook it for Grendlewald. I wonder if JKR intended us to make the association. Grendlewald is a creepy name!

LOve to read these editorials. Lady Lupin's are fine. I could come up with intelligent ideas in class discussion but never could develope a smooth essay.

Posted by DDFAN:
Okay -- you've done my work for me! I have yet to make it to look up the signs. But it seems to me that something described everytime we see it is significant and it is especially significant that the sign is creaking when there is NO WIND. So, what is going on with the sign? It could be someone invisible as you have noted. It could also involve time travel such as we see in POA. Or perhaps there is some underground secret passage under all that filth in the Bar that looks as though it is centuries old! Perhaps the opening or closing of a passage somewhere is somehow linked to the creaking sign? In terms of WHO the invisible person would be. I tend to think that it is somehow related to what Dumbledore is doing in the sense that I think timing is very important. It could have something to do with someone saying, "OK" they are here at the Hogs Head about to go for the cave, time for part X to be set in motion.
Sorry if I interrupted your train of thought :) I like the idea of a secret passage to the Hog's Head, presumably from one of the passages in Hogwarts that the trio have never explored. I would very much like to know more about the other rooms that lead off the Headmaster's office. I read that for the GoF movie they built in a suite of rooms behind the Headmaster's desk, even though they are never seen in the film. This immediately got me thinking about possible private passageways that the Headmaster may have access to. It is usual in fantasy tales for old castles to be riddled with passages inside the walls.

I'm afraid I don't see the connection of time travel to the Hog's Head. Please could you tell me more?

Posted by DDFAN:
Since you cannot apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts grounds, I think that what Dobby is doing is something different from apparation.
That is possible. But also, we are told that most wizard dwellings have anti-apparition jinxes placed on them, but all House Elves would be expected to jump around the house silently without their masters noticing. I suspect that House Elves may be exempt from the usual rules of magic.

Posted by hpmom:
<gasp> I missed the bit with the Knight bus!! That is bizarre that Harry would hear it in the bus, is it not? Nice find! Yes, there is something going on here. I like the "invisible entity" idea, and I like your explanation as to the sound of apparition (and other forms of coming and going such as with Dobby). I had noticed the difference in sound, and wondered if what we heard on Privet Drive that night was actually Mundungus, or something else, because it was so loud. Your theory would explain that. The idea of a sudden vacuum creating a rush of air movement makes complete sense. I also like the mention DDFAN made of tunnels.

The Inn was the HQ of the Goblin Rebellion of 1600-something or other (probably 1642-ish to coincide with the English Civil War, Cromwell and all that?), and given the Goblins' ability for digging tunnels and hiding things underground a la Gringotts and the need for secrecy required in such a rebellion, I am betting that there are some pretty interesting tunnels underneath the Hog's Head. So, I wonder who owned the Inn back then? Interesting that it is associated with a group of beings wanting equitable and fair treatment, and now seemingly run by a Dumbledore....but I digress.

My point is if there is a tunnel underneath that sign, any movement or pressure changes within could cause the movement above. If that is the case, there has been a great deal of unseen movement going on there for quite some time.

What gives with the sign? The Aberforth situation is weird and puzzling enough; now we have the sign business. My suspicion meter is well into the red zone but my answer meter reading is wildly tossing to and fro as though it were crossing the Bermuda Triangle. I am missing something...
The tunnels are definately a good point, and I love the idea of goblin involvement. Wasn't Dumbledore concerned that the goblins would turn to Voldemort's side during the war, or have I got that wrong? But we don't hear anything about this in OotP or HBP. Perhaps underground dealings with the goblins have been going on for a while.

I think I need to go away and think :)

Sholeigh

wasn't it arthur weasley who asked bill about whether goblins would side with the order, in OotP (?) and he said they were keeping pretty quiet about whose side they would take because of the wizard cover up of ludo's cheating them? interesting thought about underground passages, another thing I had not considered at all.

Posted by plainlypotter:
wasn't it arthur weasley who asked bill about whether goblins would side with the order, in OotP (?) and he said they were keeping pretty quiet about whose side they would take because of the wizard cover up of ludo's cheating them? interesting thought about underground passages, another thing I had not considered at all.
Thanks for the reference. I'll go check it out :)

wasn't it arthur weasley who asked bill about whether goblins would side with the order, in OotP (?) and he said they were keeping pretty quiet about whose side they would take because of the wizard cover up of ludo's cheating them?

Ah yes! This is important. I think Bill has been busy working on getting Goblin cooperation, but for what, exactly?

Sholeigh:


If I may try my hand at answering the time travel question, if someone time travels it would be another way for them to disappear suddenly, without disapparating. In general, I think some time travel could be involved in the final events of HBP. It might not be, but it would be one way to explain the oddity of some of the things that happen.

OK- I just thought of a Very Weird time travel idea. I am not saying this happened, but I was just thinking and the logistics of this popped into my head. How to make Dumbledore's Army, or rather an army of Dumbledores.

You go back in time a hour, and there are two of you present in that tme, the future you and the present you. What if you repeatedly go back to that same time from various points in the future? Could you theoretically have a whole bunch of "you" at one point in time, from all over time? Could Dumbledore do this to create an army of Dumbledores? I have enough trouble keeping track of present me on a straight timeline! :)

re: Time Travel

All the Time Turners were destroyed during that fight in the Ministry, weren't they? So isn't time travel impossible now?

As for the creaking sign... PLEASE pardon me for being so pedestrian, but isn't it possible that it has simply been enchanted to always creak a little bit, just because wizards and witches tend to find that sort of spooky stuff kinda cool (especially after they've had a few drinks)?

Do you really think that Dumbledore needs or uses Ministry Time Turners to travel in time?

I don't see any indication that the sign has simply been enchanted for no reason. The description and wording of the text may be important as a clue to what is occurring. Or the sign may simply be unimportant. I tend to think it is important given the mystery surrounding Aberforth and the Hogs Head. Many things are possible, what is likely or probable is a different matter.

In regard to my time travel comment, if there is time travel going on, somebody could be near the sign, moving the sign, around, the sign, etc., and causing the effect. The closest thing I can think of to describe what I mean is from the movie POA when the 1st iteration Hermione looks back into the trees toward the "time travel" Harry and Hermione as though she senses something is there.

I see your point about Dumbledore probably being wise and magical enough to not need a Time Turner... nonetheless, as of yet we haven't been introduced to any other method of time-travel. Also, if he COULD travel in time, why did he need the Pensieve [and Harry's intervention] to find out what Slughorn told Tom Riddle about Horcruxes? He could simply have gone back there, LITERALLY as a "fly on the wall" [eat your heart out, Rita Skeeter!] and heard/seen for himself.

Posted by hpmom:
If I may try my hand at answering the time travel question, if someone time travels it would be another way for them to disappear suddenly, without disapparating. In general, I think some time travel could be involved in the final events of HBP. It might not be, but it would be one way to explain the oddity of some of the things that happen.

OK- I just thought of a Very Weird time travel idea. I am not saying this happened, but I was just thinking and the logistics of this popped into my head. How to make Dumbledore's Army, or rather an army of Dumbledores.

You go back in time a hour, and there are two of you present in that tme, the future you and the present you. What if you repeatedly go back to that same time from various points in the future? Could you theoretically have a whole bunch of "you" at one point in time, from all over time? Could Dumbledore do this to create an army of Dumbledores? I have enough trouble keeping track of present me on a straight timeline!
Great idea. I see how the time travel thing could make someone seem to disappear, like disapparating. The thing about time travel though is that the person would move in time, but not in space, so time travel wouldn't have made any difference to Dumbledore when he fell off the Tower. Not unless there was once an occasion when a giant crash mat was positioned under the Tower :) . I don't know if that was your thought or not, I just wanted to point it out.

I love the idea of an Army of Dumbledores! It would take a great deal of planning and will power to pull off mutiple time leaps like that. Like Hermione says, if someone met their past or future self, they could end up killing their other self, thinking they are going mad. There is also the thing about two identical souls existing in the same time frame, but JKR didn't include the effects of this in PoA, so perhaps she has decided that in her world, there would be no side effects to time travel. If anyone could do it, Dumbledore could.

Posted by ParselFace:
All the Time Turners were destroyed during that fight in the Ministry, weren't they? So isn't time travel impossible now?
True, all the Ministry time turners were destroyed, but who is to say that Dumbledore doesn't have his own time machine, built into his special watch maybe?

Posted by DDFAN:
In regard to my time travel comment, if there is time travel going on, somebody could be near the sign, moving the sign, around, the sign, etc., and causing the effect. The closest thing I can think of to describe what I mean is from the movie POA when the 1st iteration Hermione looks back into the trees toward the "time travel" Harry and Hermione as though she senses something is there.
Like you say, the event with Hermione sensing her other self only occurred in the film version, and it's the same with the scene where Hermione throws a fossil at Harry to make them leave Hagrid's hut. As far as I remember, there was almost no interaction between the different versions of Harry and Hermione in the PoA book, and also Ron did not see them disappear from the hospital wing, as he does in the film. Thinking about that has made me realise how much of my knowledge of Wizarding time travel is based on the movie version. I think it's time I re-read the early books again :)

One of the interesting things to take note of when you reread POA is Dumbledore's relationship to events in time. When the second iteration Harry and Hermione go back to save the "two innocent lives," the first iteration Dumbledore who they observe going to Hagrid's cabin is very much aware that there is a future Harry and Hermione out there. He buys them the needed time to retrieve Buckbeak and sends Fudge and company off to search the skies. He is amused, not surprised by events. This is blatantly apparent in the movie. Although more subtle in the book, it is still nevertheless present. This suggests to me that Dumbledore has quite a "unique" time perspective.

Posted DDFAN:
One of the interesting things to take note of when you reread POA is Dumbledore's relationship to events in time. When the second iteration Harry and Hermione go back to save the "two innocent lives," the first iteration Dumbledore who they observe going to Hagrid's cabin is very much aware that there is a future Harry and Hermione out there. He buys them the needed time to retrieve Buckbeak and sends Fudge and company off to search the skies. He is amused, not surprised by events. This is blatantly apparent in the movie. Although more subtle in the book, it is still nevertheless present. This suggests to me that Dumbledore has quite a "unique" time perspective.
It's interesting you mention the scene around Hagrid's cabin because I had noticed Dumbledore's awareness of Harry and Hermione, particularly each time I've seen the film, but I've never thought it through properly afterwards. There are other similar scenes like that in the movies, where Dumbledore's intention has been emphasised. Two examples I can think of are: CoS, in Hagrid's hut the trio are hidden under the Cloak but Dumbledore very clearly knows they are there; and PoA, Snape and Dumbledore stand talking over Harry when the kids are supposed to be asleep in the Great Hall.

Dumbledore's awareness of time raises many questions about other occasions when knowledge of the future would have helped him, particularly the events of GoF when Dumbledore is, according to Hagrid, beside himself with worry, and yet by jumping around in time Dumbledore could have learned about Moody and the graveyard plot. If you believe Dumbledore can travel in time, then there is a great deal that doesn't make sense.

Not to be redundant or a pain in the Azkaban, but...

...I'm still not convinced that Dumbledore can time-travel at will. If he could, then he simply would not have needed to use his Pensieve to go back and discover what he did about Tom Riddle's childhood, and he certainly would not have had to enlist Harry's help in conning the "uncorrupted" memory out of Slughorn. He could have traveled back there and found out for himself.

Not to be redundant or a pain in the Azkaban, but...

...I'm still not convinced that Dumbledore can time-travel at will. If he could, then he simply would not have needed to use his Pensieve to go back and discover what he did about Tom Riddle's childhood, and he certainly would not have had to enlist Harry's help in conning the "uncorrupted" memory out of Slughorn. He could have traveled back there and found out for himself.

Hello to all! This is my first post, but I have been following this thread...

I have to agree with you Parsel, I just don't think that Dumbledore can time travel, nor do I think that he would mess with something so dangerous just because he can.
As far as his actions in PoA regarding Beaky's execution scene; Dumbledore was there as a support to Hagrid. He could have spent that time acting so calm and delaying the execution so that it wouldn't be as hard on Hagrid. After Beaky disappeared, Dumbledore made the connection that someone had rescued him and deduced that it was most likely Harry and Hermione, then planted the seed in their heads.
Of course, the discussion of time travel is a most difficult one that can only be carried on using hypotheticals and not solid facts and is dizzying at best. :)

All the best,
la femme

Welcome to the boards, la femme!

I agree that it's possible that Dumbledore didn't know Harry and Hermione were there outside Hagrid's hut, but the way it was emphasised so strongly in the PoA movie suggests otherwise. There is the important point that, when JKR saw the PoA film for the first time, she said she was shocked by some scenes which seemed to foreshadow events still to be written. Could this have been one of those scenes?

There is no DOUBT that Dumbledore COULD travel through time if he so chose. Do you honestly believe that a mere student could do this and Dumbledore not have that type of capability in some way, shape or form? Or that he would rely upon the Ministry for that power? But remember the problem with traveling through time -- "terrible things happen to wizards who travel through time" as you may risk changing events so that even worse things transpire. I am sure Dumledore not only can travel through time, but does travel through time. The question is what are the rules for him what exactly IS his relationship vis a vis time given what we know from the books. This is something that goes much deeper than merely jumping back and making a change or two here and there and everything will be find. Voldemort is not so easy to be rid of and is a formidable opponent, though intrinsically evil.

Hello to all! This is my first post, but I have been following this thread...

I have to agree with you Parsel, I just don't think that Dumbledore can time travel, nor do I think that he would mess with something so dangerous just because he can.
As far as his actions in PoA regarding Beaky's execution scene; Dumbledore was there as a support to Hagrid. He could have spent that time acting so calm and delaying the execution so that it wouldn't be as hard on Hagrid. After Beaky disappeared, Dumbledore made the connection that someone had rescued him and deduced that it was most likely Harry and Hermione, then planted the seed in their heads.
Of course, the discussion of time travel is a most difficult one that can only be carried on using hypotheticals and not solid facts and is dizzying at best. :)

All the best,
la femme


:welcome: lafemmenissa, I like your idea that Dumbledores, wisdom basically, was the factor in influencing Harry & Hermione to later on, do what he expected they did. I hope that makes sense! read it again!:lol:
I like to think of Dumbledore as someone extremely noble to the very end, I think that is the message JKR is trying to acheive therefore I do not think he has dabbled with time travel to any great extent that has interfered with current events, I also believe what Dumbledore possessed was a vast knowledge, experience and wisdom second to none, and this above all was what Voldemort feared, for this reason I believe his understanding of time as it is happening is a perception understood only by him. I believe Dumbledore to be a much greater wizard than Voldemort.

Hello to all! This is my first post, but I have been following this thread...

I have to agree with you Parsel, I just don't think that Dumbledore can time travel, nor do I think that he would mess with something so dangerous just because he can.


Welcome to the thread! :)

In regard to the above statement, I don't believe Dumbledore does things in general "just because he can". Ultimately, in this series, the fate of the world is at stake. Time travel may be dicey, and it has rules, but it is not inherently evil, so Dumbledore will most assuredly use it to advantage. He will not let the world fall into darkness without using every tool at his disposal to stop it. And as DDFAN points out, he has sent a student into time travel, along with the Chosen One. He would not have done this unless he felt assured of Harry's safety, so he is very comfortable with the situation under the right circumstances.

The time travel scenes in POA indicate a knowledge of the time travelers on Dumbledore's part. He knows what is coming. I really can't see any evidence to the contrary from what is written.

On an interesting note, JKR has also refused to comment on whether or not there would be further time travel. As it fits the atmosphere of HBP, I believe it was at play in the final events of the book in some way.

No story I have ever read or seen that uses time travel supposes that it is safe to use time travel to go back and correct all ills. The law of unintended consequences always comes into play. It cannot be done on a whim. I think Harry and Hermione going back in time to influence events before Sirius was given the Kiss is important. Something tells me that once that had happened, they could not have fixed it by going back in time. Of course, that would indicate that their time travels had failed, but I think that it would have been unchangeable.

I think it does seem highly unlikely that of two brothers one could be the greatest wizard of all time, highly intelligent, a good and kind man, very powerful, while the other brother is "not clever enough to read", with no powers at all that we have ever seen, and given by the way he threats his customers, quite an unpleasant man.
That's so much of a coincidence that I've began to wonder if perhaps, this is linked. Could Dumbledore have somehow sapped his brother's power? Not in a vampire-like way, but as a conscious agreement between the two?
If what is said in this intriguing editorial about Dumbledore's past and how he watched his family being tortured, is true, then is there a possibility that the two brothers realised that in order for them to defeat Grindelwald, one needed to be a lot stronger then each alone was?
The good old link between Aberforth and goats has been theorised as being part of an enchantment which required the use of a goat. When Harry and gang walk into the Hog's Head for their first DA meeting the place still smells of goats. Could this mean that, if there is a charm, it is being kept up all along? Seeing as Dumbledore was described doing extraordinary magic during his NEWT examinations, the charm would have been in place since they were boys to this day which is nearly a 150 years. Of course I have no explanation as to why it was kept up after 1945.

All wild guesses but I thought it was too much of a coincidence to not spin a few idea's around.

I think it does seem highly unlikely that of two brothers one could be the greatest wizard of all time, highly intelligent, a good and kind man, very powerful, while the other brother is "not clever enough to read", with no powers at all that we have ever seen, and given by the way he threats his customers, quite an unpleasant man.
That's so much of a coincidence that I've began to wonder if perhaps, this is linked. Could Dumbledore have somehow sapped his brother's power?

Well, I am just not convinced that Aberforth is what we have been led to believe. I am not sure there is such a thing as this barman Aberforth who is Albus' illiterate brother! Something is definitely going on here, and something smells, though it is more goat-y than fishy :).

I am suspicious of anything in regard to Aberforth.

In regard to the sign creaking, wind and no wind, is there anything else in the books that creaks routinely in a similar manner?

I am wondering when DD will be able to speak from his portraint in the Headmaster's office. He is snoozing in his frame at the end of book 6. So, how does one wake him up? Can Minerva call upon him as the new Headmaster since the dead ones are obligated to help?? Does he have to sleep for a period of time after his death before he can be tapped for insight?

Is DD an Anamangus?

My guess is that Aberforth may have hidden or stored his knowledge in that goat for all these years that can be recalled when DD died. Aberforth might be the good side's "sleeper cell" via the goat. Maybe Aberforth can recall it now and be the new DD!
Sounds silly, but there you go!

Dumbledore is a very intelligent person, and I would say he has his own ways of figuring out who is on the grounds... Maybe he already knew Sirius was innocent and in that case he could have planned the whole thing up front... Or perhaps his distractions had nothing to do with Sirius and he just wanted Harry and Hermione to help Buckbeack, though it does seem a lot of trouble planning an escape for a hippogriff...

Anyway, we all know names are very important with JKR. Does anyone know what Aberforth means? Maybe that will tell us something more about him. Besides, did you notice that if you take the names of the 2 Dumbledore brothers and put them backwards, you get DADA: Defence Against the Dark Arts... OK - I admit, I might be overanalysing, but it's cool anyway ;)

The idea that Grindelwald killed Dumbledore's family is a very tantalizing one, one of the best theories/leads I've seen in a while. If it's true, will Harry be able to find it in the Pensieve? Or will he have to hear it from Aberforth?

Wow! I haven't stepped foot in this thread for ages. The wallpaper's still the same... same burn mark on the carpet there *rubs with boot*

Posted by Sunesy:
Anyway, we all know names are very important with JKR. Does anyone know what Aberforth means? Maybe that will tell us something more about him.
In the original thread for this editorial (pre-Spinner's End days) I did some research into the name Aberforth. It was inconclusive, but I've re-posted what I found below. I was intrigued mostly by the idea that two brothers could share a name, and that name might have two meanings. So I also checked out alternatives for Dumbledore. Enjoy...

Aberforth

Definitions:
From http://www.m5p.com/%7Epravn/hp/a-6.html
Aberforth Dumbledore: Etym: No name-specific info. Aber in Scottish placenames means "confluence" or "river mouth", so it could mean the location of Edinburgh-- at the mouth of the river Forth.

Mugglenet does not yet have a definition for him.

My findings:
Aber is German for 'but'. Aber in English is the first part of 'aberation', which can mean 'deviation from the truth'.
A forth in Scotland is an estuary. And the word 'forth' is well enough known: sally forth, go forth, etc.

I checked the lovely old dictionary I have from the turn of the century, which contains the definition of 'dumbledore'. It states that dumbledore can also refer to the brown cockchaffer beetle, as well as a bumblebee. I'm trying to find out if this beetle has any relevance to Aberforth.

I know this might be a bit much but i think that when Dumbledore and Harry were in that cave and Dumbledore started to drink the potion he started to relive what Harry was feeling when harry/nagini/voldemort attack Ron's dad......if you look at it makes sense doesn't it,cause in the MOM voldy try to posses harry and harry was in agony.Now if you put what Dumbledore was saying in the cave with what harry was seeing......well it makes sense.

All the Time Turners were destroyed during that fight in the Ministry, weren't they? So isn't time travel impossible now?
Do you really think that Dumbledore needs or uses Ministry Time Turners to travel in time?
I see your point about Dumbledore probably being wise and magical enough to not need a Time Turner... nonetheless, as of yet we haven't been introduced to any other method of time-travel.
ParselFace, I think you missed the point to what DDFAN was saying. It wasn't being suggested that Dumbledore didn't need a Time Turner. Rather, the emphasis was that it was only the Time Turners that were owned by the Ministry that were destroyed. I'm sure there are other Time Turners out there somewhere, maybe even in Dumbledore's office.

...I'm still not convinced that Dumbledore can time-travel at will. If he could, then he simply would not have needed to use his Pensieve to go back and discover what he did about Tom Riddle's childhood, and he certainly would not have had to enlist Harry's help in conning the "uncorrupted" memory out of Slughorn. He could have traveled back there and found out for himself.
I think the most important thing to remember about Time Turning is that the person should not be seen. Therefore even if Dumbledore went back to Tom Riddle's childhood, there's still no way he could have been in that room to overhear the conversation with Slughorn. Even if he had an invisibility cloak, it still would be too risky. Someone might have bumped into him. Or, there might be others who can see through the invisibility cloaks, just like Dumbledore himself can do.

Plus, there is no canon evidence to suggest that going forward in time is possible, so if Dumbledore did go back that far, and if Time Turners don't go forward, then he'd have years to wait before he could return to the present. Therefore it's possible that going back more than a few days becomes extra dangerous.

Interesting editorial, I've been struck with the name Grindelwald ever since I first read it. I don't know if it's important but there is a village called Grindelwald here in Switzerland and it is a very popular skiing region. I thought it an odd coincidence but probably without any importance (perhaps Jo has been skiing there).

the name Grindelwald is sorta close to Grendal. And after some further looking into I've notice some similarities between Beowulf and harry Potter. such as Grendal had different enchantments cast on him to make him sorta immortal. no mortal weapons could kill him which is kinda like the Horcrux and Voldermort. Beowulf was the only man with the ability to defeat Grendal and Harry is the only one who has the ability to defeat Voldermort. but this theory hopeful is not true beacuse i would hate for Harry's fate to be the same as Beowulf's.(Beowulf dies after his final battle, i guess thats why its hes a tragic hero).

after lots of thinking i've noticed somthing about the Beowulf and Harry Potter similarities.
Beowulf was way more similar to Dumbledor than to Harry. Dumbledor must have defeated grindlewald when he was a young man. And that would be similar to Beowulf. Beowulf dies an old man and so does Dumbledor. they both die because of their trust in people. Dumbledor's trust in Snape and Beowulf's trust in his warriors. Beowulf becomes a beloved king to his people and Dumledor is headmaster of Hogwarts and and a beloved headmaster to his students.(i consider hogwarts as dumbledor's kingdom)and the monuments to them are similar as in the are both by water(dumbledor's by the lake , beowulfs by the sea)
i think they're both towers.so i would consider Dumbledor to be the Tragic Hero in the story hopefully not harry, because i think Harry deserves a to live a happy long life.