References to "Real Life" in HP as CLUES to the end of the series [Archive]

Cadia

March 8th, 2006, 5:54 pm

I almost hate to say anything about it here for fear some might find my description offensive, but I certainly don't mean it that way...nor do I offer the information from direct knowledge or any remote agreement with the beliefs of the group referenced...but since you asked...

In my opinion, the Death Eaters costumes in the film (and even the book description) were very similar to the attire worn by the KKK (Klu Klux Klan), except their robes and masks were white. From what I've read or seen on television about the KKK (thankfully I don't actually know anyone who was or is a member) they were much like Hitler in that they were also targeting people they deemed unworthy...primarily black/African-American people, but I think also Jewish people and probably some others. They were sometimes also known as White Supremecists.
Yeah, that was pretty scary...I don't remember the exact description from the book, but I definitely never assosciated the Death Eaters with KKK until the movie. It made them a whole lot more creepy. :scared:

By the way, I agree with the parallel between Voldemort and Hitler. It makes great sense, and, so far, it is the only very important reference to the real world that I have found in HP. Of course there are other, little things. HorcruxFilms, I agree that JK certainly gives us alot in the names of her characters. There's a huge list of names that mean something having to do with the character in HP. That is quite interesting about the word "Völkermord!" That makes so much sense.

About the Wulfric/Beowulf/Grindle thing: I haven't read Beowulf (yet), but I am assuming from Megg001's post that you are drawing a comparison beween the words Beowulf and Wulfric? That is interesting, seeing as it is someone named "Grindle" who is defeated. Hmmm...I don't know enough about Beowulf to elaborate, but I think it's possible that JK could have taken some inspiration from this, although it might not have been a direct, deliberate reference.

VMorticia

March 8th, 2006, 6:48 pm

Hmm, I always thought Voldemort was derived from French for "flight from death" or "cheater of death" (depending on the interpretation)... though I do find the German translation very fitting as well.

Yeah, I never assoccated the DE robes with the KKK until I saw the movie. I mean, they were never described in the books as having pointy hoods, were they? Just black robes with white masks... though I must say I actually liked the skull-masks (which weren't described as such in the books, either)... still a disturbing (and fitting, I think) comparison.

Ok, I hate to be the one to bring up Draco everywhere, but he is my favourite character, and I read somewhere about his name being derived from the same historical character that the word "draconian" came from, though I cannot remember the story behind that character... can anyone help me with this point?

HorcruxFilms

March 8th, 2006, 11:20 pm

Draco was the name of an ancient Greek ruler that was particulary harsh in his punishments, even for minor offenses. People were quickly executed for things that now days might only carry a small fine. If you were in debt to someone and couldn't pay...you were enslaved by your creditor acording to Draconian law. He also favored certain classes of people over others...particularly the noble class. when you here the term draconian taxt cuts, it is a phrase that might mean excessively taxing poor people at the benifit of the rich. Thats the origin.

JimmyPotter

March 8th, 2006, 11:33 pm

now there's a crazy-*** conspiracy in the waiting...:rolleyes:

I think it would be way over the top if Rowling were to write that the death of Princess Diana was a Death Eater plot.

MeropesLove

March 9th, 2006, 9:54 am

After watching a certain movie "What a Girl Wants", I noticed similarities between the play "The Reluctant Debutante" and the Harry Potter storyline. Taking the example of upper-middle class society in Britain, and how some of them think it's beneath themselves to marry common people, or risk disownment (Sirius Black?).

If there is a war between wizards, this may lay a clue to suspect it boiling over to the muggle world.

rareb

March 9th, 2006, 10:15 am

wow, I like the "Völkermord" parallel with the name "Voldemort" even though the French reference is probably the one Rowling had in mind.

I have a bit of a problem accepting
Voldemort = Hitler
etc.
I don't think you can just put an equal-sign between those two. The concept of Voldemort could have been influenced by the real person that was Hitler, but there are many differences between them - for example that Hitler was in any way a mediocre person but who somehow became the terrible tyrant by fanatism, circonstances and the help of devote followers.

Anyway, I have expressed my opinion on that in another thread already. I just want to point out that if you want to follow the line Voldemort=Hitler it would end with Voldemort sacrifying all his followers to the last even when his defeat would become appearant, because he would think that "the pure-blood" had failed and must be destroyed like he wanted the "mud-blood" destroyed before and finally, when Harry would already be at his doorstep, he would commit suicide to evade justice.

Now, this seems to be a very unlikely scenario, because I can see Voldemort doing many things to defend himself, but suicide? For someone whose greatest ambition is to evade death for ever and become totally immortal? Who even endures terrible pain and a half-life with as good as no prospects before Wormtail returns to him? No - honestly, I don't think we can take this particular real life reference any further.

VMorticia

March 9th, 2006, 1:27 pm

HorcruxFilms

March 9th, 2006, 3:45 pm

I dont think there is neccessarily a direct connection between Voldemort & Hitler, but I think that there are some foundational elements between the two. Obviously racism is the biggest similarity, and the willingness to kill off those that do not meet his racial standard. But, I dont see a lot of similiarities. Hitler, for all of his terrible faults, was probably one of the greatest communicators of the 20th century. He was very charismatic and articulate to the public, offering the promise of a Utopian society, beter infrastructure, civic welfare, a classless society, etc. To most Germans, he was found very likable. Voldemort, on the other hand, does not seem to influence in such ways. I get the indication that nobody likes Voldemort...even his followers. Most, probably follow out of fear of death or torture, not out of a belief in the promises of an articulate communicator. To me, the connection between Voldemort & Hitler is very interesting, but not neccessarily a strong one. Was there some influences...oh yeah, but the same genocidal connections could be made regarding Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussain, and current leaders in the Sudan, Ethiopia, Uzbekistan, and Zimbabwe.

Wolfbanewhistle

March 10th, 2006, 1:44 pm

HorcruxFilms

March 10th, 2006, 2:53 pm

Well thats not true, even if you take Olivanders response of,"he did great things, terrible but great" it goes to show there is some respect in the wizarding commuinity even for Voldermort.

Ah yes, but respect is very different from liking or admiring someone. You can have respect out of fear...not just because you like something.

WoodsMom

March 10th, 2006, 3:18 pm

bryanweasley

March 10th, 2006, 3:32 pm

there is a quote somewhere from JK about The fall of Grindlwald coinciding with the fall of Hitler. Or something like that. It should be at Madam Scoops if anyone has time to look it up.
That post about the mourning of Princess Diana would be very interesting-

JKR: I'm going to tell you as much as I told someone earlier who asked me. You know Owen who won the [UK television] competition to interview me? He asked about Grindelwald [pronounced "Grindelvald" HMM…]. He said, “Is it coincidence that he died in 1945,” and I said no. It amuses me to make allusions to things that were happening in the Muggle world, so my feeling would be that while there's a global Muggle war going on, there's also a global wizarding war going on.

ES: Does he have any connection to --

JKR: I have no comment to make on that subject.

As JK wants no time set on her work, Voldemort could be anybody who seeks domination -- Osama Bin Ladin would make more sense, the difference being that if Osama dies, it has been stated that his views on this world will continue in others who share them. If Voldemort dies, all will be restored.

TheWazlibGirl

March 14th, 2006, 11:38 pm

*barges in* I'm pretty sure I read some interview with JKR that she herself said that Voldemort is very similar to Hitler *hops off to find the quotes*

BurrowGhoul

March 14th, 2006, 11:52 pm

I agree Voldemort is not the type to commit suicide... I can, however, clearly see him sacrificing his minions- I mean Death Eaters- to the fight even if it was hopeless. He really is doing as much damage to the Pureblood wizards as he is to the Muggles, and there's a list of already-dead purebloods to prove it... though I can't remember them all... but it's the basis for my theory that the Pureblood fanatics will turn on him... I'm getting off-topic. Sorry.

I have to laugh, because when I read all the comparisons of Voldemort to Hitler (which are supposedly true), I thought to myself "So help me, if Voledmort commits suicide in a bunker somewhere...:evil: " :lol:

RatheAuror

March 15th, 2006, 5:06 am

Like all the Great English writers, C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, I think it's obvious you can find the main similarity to real life. All three have a dominate theme of British Reluctance to face the truth about horrible people, and actions.

I.E. Ministry of Magic concerning Voldermort's Return, Lord of the Rings, The Ent's hesitation to go to war. = Britain's decisions not to deal with Hitler until it was literally on their doorstep.

I by no means am saying the whole LOTRs is an allerory of WWII.

As far as Death Eaters like the KKK, obviously that was the movies interpretation, but unfortantly we do in real life have the KKK, and other such groups of hate.

Voldermort like Hitler, not in my mind. History tells us Hitler was extremely inebt at almost everything he did. Also, he lead and swayed a country by circumstances of Economic strife.

VL rules by fear.

Just some thoughts.

futureMD

March 15th, 2006, 6:52 am

Wow, this is a really interesting thread. I absolutely think there are characteristics of Hitler and his regime that are similar to Voldemort and the Death Eaters. But I cannot believe that Rowling is modeling the entire story on Hitler. Honestly, you could draw connections between many genocidal leaders and Voldemort.

The origin of characters names is also fascinating. Someone mentioned earlier that Voldemorts name may have been derived from the french translation of two phrases, 'flight from death' and 'cheater of death'. Here are the translations if anyone would like to see the similarities. (From dictionary.com)

flight from death..................vol de la mort
cheater of death.................. tricheur de la mort

VMorticia

March 15th, 2006, 2:07 pm

HorcruxFilms

March 15th, 2006, 8:21 pm

What I have found even more interesting that the Voldemort/Hitler comparisons is how Rowling has drawn other parallels with modern culture...particularly in social behavior. Having the Death Eaters cast the Dark Mark above locations in which they have murdered is very similar to the way many gangs will mark an area or location when they have murdered a rival member. Branding members with the Dark Mark as a sign of allegience is very similar to how gangs will tatoo its members or how a fraternity may brand its new inductees.
It is also interesting to note that what we tend to awkwardly do when we enter school for the first time is segregate ourselves with people of like interests and develop our own "houses" if you will...(jocks, nerds, band geeks, punks, etc.), Hogwarts seems to institutionalize through a sorting ceremony. Is Rowling making a comment on our social structure?

futureMD

March 15th, 2006, 10:31 pm

Actually, I got the "cheater of death" reference from "voleur", which in my French dictionary means "thief" or "cheat". Maybe say to steal from death, instead of to cheat it. Meh, my French skills suck. I actually used the site you posted to check my spelling before posting this, lol.

Well, I don't know that this website is entirely accurate so your translation is probably more correct. I just wanted to see it, it helps in understanding where she got the name. Either way, the translation looks like his name, Voldemort.

gecotaofRaven

March 15th, 2006, 11:55 pm

I think they're are major coincindences in the book ......when HBP in the UK it was only a short time after the bombings in London and in the first chapter they talk about natural disasters etc....and 2005 was plagued with natural disasters. The natural disaters turn out to be events caused by the deatheaters which in a sense are terroist attacks

Oh yeah, I remember that, that was a little odd, in my opinion.

RatheAuror

March 16th, 2006, 6:44 am

It is also interesting to note that what we tend to awkwardly do when we enter school for the first time is segregate ourselves with people of like interests and develop our own "houses" if you will...(jocks, nerds, band geeks, punks, etc.), Hogwarts seems to institutionalize through a sorting ceremony. Is Rowling making a comment on our social structure?

Many British Grammar/boarding Schools and Colleges have house systems, with points awarded, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_system

So I think she's just speaking from Expierence. But I'm sure certain houses, do develop certain characteristics.

HorcruxFilms

March 16th, 2006, 3:57 pm

Many British Grammar/boarding Schools and Colleges have house systems, with points awarded, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_system

So I think she's just speaking from Expierence. But I'm sure certain houses, do develop certain characteristics.

Being from the U.S., I'm not really familiar with the house system, but I have heard of it before. I wasn't certain that they pulled certain personality characteristics to identify what house you belong it though. I honestly think the house system makes sense, particularly in schools that are preparing students for certain career paths of their choosing. I also think the house system being in place at Hogwarts is critical to the plot.
Having said this, to bring us back on topic, I know that can draw parallels from each of the Hogwarts houses to certain fraternities that I am familiar with. Do any of you think that Rowling had certain organizations in mind in naming and describing the houses?

ProfMcGonagall

March 16th, 2006, 5:19 pm

Regarding the idea of Beowulf. Although I don't see a lot of parallels, Beowulf does defeat Grindel, does not have an heir (like Dumbledore), and after defeating the beast rules "the Hall" for 50 years.

HorcruxFilms

March 16th, 2006, 7:18 pm

I think Rowling drew a lot of her inspiration from British literature. She has said before that two of her biggest influences have been CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien. It would suprise me little to find that she used other literary characters and plots as a method of developing the Harry Potter storyline.

Lincendiere

March 16th, 2006, 8:35 pm

Even for a french speaker, the exact meaning of "Vol de mort" isn't easy to find.

"Vol" can be translated as "flight' and as "theft" or 'robbery". "Vol" is the act, not the person who makes it

And "de" is used in many ways.

So, it can mean : "Flight from death", "Flight of death", "Theft of death". Anyway, the better way to understand it is probably the Voldemort try to flee or cheat Death.

For the references to other books, yes, there is a lot. The more obvious are probably Shakespeare and Paul Gallico.

From Shakespeare, huge references to Macbeth and the Tempest. From Gallico, influences from many books are visible in the construction of a parallel society, the construction of the characters, the themes (love, thirst for immortality, human weakness, compassion).

Snuffles05

March 16th, 2006, 10:03 pm

It is not possible for any of these books to me in line with present disasters becuase ( according to Lexicon timeline) the 7th book will actually be in the year of 1997 so none of the "real life" disasters youve been through lately are in these books

I think Rowling drew a lot of her inspiration from British literature. She has said before that two of her biggest influences have been CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien. It would suprise me little to find that she used other literary characters and plots as a method of developing the Harry Potter storyline.

If Tolkien really influences her then i could see the whole Dumbledore returning theory to be a little more possible like when Gandolf(spelling?) returns in Lord of the Rings two towers as the White Wizard

HorcruxFilms

March 17th, 2006, 4:44 pm

It is not possible for any of these books to me in line with present disasters becuase ( according to Lexicon timeline) the 7th book will actually be in the year of 1997 so none of the "real life" disasters youve been through lately are in these books

If Tolkien really influences her then i could see the whole Dumbledore returning theory to be a little more possible like when Gandolf(spelling?) returns in Lord of the Rings two towers as the White Wizard

You bring up a good point about Gandolf/Dumbledore. There are some strong similarities in their character and appearance. I'm not one to subscribe to the return of Dumbledore (although I suppose it is possible), but I do suspect that we have not heard the last of him. I think we will definitley be looking into Dumbledore's pensieve a bit more, and we may find that Dumbledore has left letters or other clues for Harry. Of course, he could appear in a painting...regardless...there will be more of Dumbledore.

Curiously, I dont recall any major wars taking place in 1997, with exception to all of the massacres taking place almost weekly in Algeria...that was horrible! I doubt though that Rowling would draw direct parallels to that.

I agree Voldemort is not the type to commit suicide... I can, however, clearly see him sacrificing his minions- I mean Death Eaters- to the fight even if it was hopeless. He really is doing as much damage to the Pureblood wizards as he is to the Muggles, and there's a list of already-dead purebloods to prove it... though I can't remember them all... but it's the basis for my theory that the Pureblood fanatics will turn on him... I'm getting off-topic. Sorry.

Ok...not that I'm totally advocating the conection between Voldemort & Hitler, but I'm sure many of you noticed that Rowling had originally named the death eaters the "Knights of Walpurgis", which is a reference to April 30th (Walpurgis night), when many witches gather to celebrate the coming of spring. Incidently, Hitler committed suicide on Walpurgisnacht (April 30th/May1st).

rareb

March 17th, 2006, 5:10 pm

First, it's Gandalf! ;)
There was no major war in 1997, but remember that Rowling started shaping out the story before 1997, so I guess all the historical allusions are in the past, but there are none in the (book-)present.
It was kind of scary that the London bombings were just a few days before we all read the first chapter of "HBP", but obviously a coincident.

I don't think that the similarities between Gandalf and Dumbledore mean that he will come back. Because if you had done a bit more research about the Lord of the Rings, you would have found out that Gandalf isn't human, he is a Maiar, a creature that Tolkien once described as something like "angelic" in lack of other comparasion. He didn't come back from death, he was sent back to accomplish his task because he was the only one true to it. These are other circonstances than in Harry Potter and we have no indication whatsoever that Dumbledore was more than human. And humans don't come back from death (with the exeption of one, if you are a believer). I don't want to start the discussion about possible fake-deaths here, because this has nothing to do with Gandalf (whose death wasn't fake - and he wasn't entirely the same afterwards).

I furthermore agree with those who pointed out that Voldemort can be compared to any 20th century tyrant - and there were many - in the same way as to Hitler.

Megg001

March 17th, 2006, 5:51 pm

I have to say that I am SO EXCITED that people are finally discussing my thread!!!

pandora67

March 17th, 2006, 6:21 pm

VMorticia

March 17th, 2006, 6:25 pm

I do like the comparison to Gandalf... but I must agree that it in no way means Dumbledore shall return. Dumbledore set Harry on the path he had to follow, much as Gandalf showed Frodo the way he must go, but Harry alone must destroy the Horcruxes and the Dark Lord. If we ever see Dumbledore again, it will be a memory or a portrait, I believe.

Megg001

March 17th, 2006, 7:25 pm

I don't think Lord V is quite Hitler yet. I see him resembling one of those Cold War dictators in a Third World country. He's Idi Amin or Pappa Doc DuValier. Or maybe Hitler in the Twenties.

I say this because I see more of a civil war aspect to what's happening in the books. At the moment, Lord V seems more concerned about taking over his world as opposed to The World. World domination is step 2.

I'm going to guess that Grendelwald was closer to a Hitler-in-the-Forties type. Grendelwald's war had gotten further out of hand. That would have made Dumbledore more of a resistance movement guy; like the role he played in OotP.

(Hey, wouldn't that make Fudge like the head of the Vichi regime?)

This is a totally good point...the wizarding world is definately in a "civil war" status...do we know if Voldemort is interested in "muggle hunting" (haha, like one of the Black clan was...forget which one though...) in the sense that he wants only a wizard only world?? This is definately "twenties-hitler" stuff...he is trying to get all the wizards on his side BEFORE he begins to make his "other" agendas known...if that makes sense...??

DrJ

March 17th, 2006, 7:46 pm

From JKRowling.com FAQ:

"Why are some people in the wizarding worlk (e.g. Harry) called 'half-blood' even though both their parents were magical?

The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices. As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concernced, for instance, a Muggle-born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore, Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his mother's grandparents.
If you think this is far-fetched, look at some of the real charts the Nazis used to show what consituted 'Aryan' or 'Jewish' blood. I saw one in the Holocaust Museum in Washington when I had already devised the 'pure-blood', 'half-blood' and 'Muggle-born' definitions, and was chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda."

From this it seem pretty clear that JKR is well aware of the parallels between her books and the history of WW2. What I find particularly interesting in this answer to the FAQ is that she adds the second paragraph to convince us. She could have stopped at the end of paragraph one and we would have all said "Oh, ok" and been content. She clearly wants us to draw the parallels. This may be more important for the younger generation as the atrocities of that dark mark (carefully chosen) in history begin to fade. However, the reference to today's events is just as valid. And this might be the whole point of the books - remind us of how ignorance and fear among men (and women) breeds hatred. The conflicts of the world tend to be power struggles of individuals, but the masses of the world are drawn into these out fear and ignorance. The theme of these books is clearly the tolerance or intolerance of peoples. She avoids discussing religion, race, political ideology or whatever, and instead teaches the lesson using magic vs non-magic as the defining difference. Remember, she also brings in the various witch burnings throughout history into the stories - something about it being great fun to pretend to be burned alive while using magic to remain perfectly safe. Consequently, I am not sure that the references to real life will serve to provide clues as to the outcome of the series. I cannot (completely off the top of my head) recall any specific plot developments that could be related in such a way. Rather, I think the real life references are there to frame the stories within the context of tolerance of others. So... I would really enjoy if people could start finding canon to support the idea that the books do parallel real life situations sufficiently that the we could start to use our knowledge of history to predict the outcome. That would be really something - otherwise I think she has included references to the real world simply to remind us of the repeating pattern of human conflict based upon prejudice, intolerance and ignorance.

rareb

March 18th, 2006, 3:31 pm

It hit me a bit unexpected, to be honest, I read the expression "second war", meaning the second Voldemort-war and I suddenly thought, well, we have two world wars, too.

And then, when I went on thinking, it occured to me that there are similarities between the muggle-wars of the early-20th century and the wizarding wars of Harry Potters present.
The first world war ended with an armistide in november 1918 and followed by a peace treaty in 1919. Germany didn't lose the war but was severely reduced. If some people believed in this peace, many wise observers said that this treaty would lead to a second war.
Now, the first war against Voldemort ended at Halloween and even though everyone was celebrating, we know that Dumbledore and some others predicted that the danger wasn't over, yet.

In real life, roughly 14/15 years after the peace of Versailles, Hitler gained power in Germany and began to prepare what became world war II. Nobody did take him quite serious in the beginning and even when it became evident, the English in particular were reluctant to re-engage in war, even when Hitler began to invade other countries.
In the wizarding world, Voldemort regains his body roughly 14/15 years after his downfall. He immediatly begins to prepare his second assault but is ignored by the ministry of magic.

There are a lot of things that aren't parallel and while Voldemort is evil, Germany as a country isn't and while the peace of Versailles certainely made it a lot easier for Hitler to access to power, the issues of the two wars weren't the same as it's for the wizarding wars.
I was just surprised that the time span between the end of the first war and the rise of the second is the same for the two examples.

pandora67

March 18th, 2006, 7:14 pm

At the end of GoF when Dumbledore and Fudge are fighting in the hospital, Dumbledore is talking about sending ambassadors to the giants and getting rid of the dementors because he suspects that Lord V is going to try to get those two groups on the Dark Side.

Then, in HBP, we find out that Lord V has hooked up with the werewolves as well.

We're told the reason all of these groups agree to side with Lord V is that he has promised them their rights and more opportunity to "do their thing."

Back when Martin Luther (Protestant Revolution guy) was just starting out, he was very vocally opposed to the Catholic church's treatment of Jews and others of differing faiths. Luther worked very hard to get these groups to support him.

They did.

Luther won.

Then Luther proceeded to oppress Jews and anyone else who didn't convert to his way of thinking.

Now I'm trying to harsh on anyone's beliefs here, just citing history. Luther wasn't the only one to do this, he's just the only example I can remember clearly right now. Everyone's group (be it political, religious, or national) has had moments they would rather not remember.

I just think this pattern might effect the plot of the last book. You know, the werewolves and giants wake up one day and realize, "And we believe this guys is going to stick to his promises because...?"

_Laura_

March 19th, 2006, 1:49 pm

Ah yes, but respect is very different from liking or admiring someone. You can have respect out of fear...not just because you like something.

Hitler wasn't liked and he wasn't very good at social contacts either... He was respected as a politician and his followers believed in him and his ideals but they didn't looked up to him because of his personality.

rareb

March 19th, 2006, 3:50 pm

HorcruxFilms

March 19th, 2006, 6:14 pm

Hm, it is difficult to tell. Hitler wasn't charismatic on his own accord. It was all trained, hard worked for. (Our teacher put a lot of emphasis on that, because Hitlers speeches and the Nazi-conventions never were lighthearted and you rarely saw happy faces there. It was well ordered, choreographed, ernest and grim.) But we also know that a sort of quasi-religious devotion was created around him, that people actually believed in him, like they believed in a religious leader. So, there was a lot affection for him - but not the light-hearted, joyful way - it was dead serious.

This is very true, Naziism was in essence a religions with Hitler operating as its chief priest. It was a very serious political/ social/eceonomic belief system. Indoctination began early with compliance politely praised, but defiance being harshly punished. One might think this only applies to a political party, but you see it all the time in religious groups...particularly the fringe elements. Yet, members do show affection for its leaders. These groups also used its own type of class system to encourage compliance. Members were branded or tatooed with certain symbols that represent their allegiance or placement within the organization, with the ultimate goal to be obtaining the same markings as the leadership.
Now, for yet another Nazi/Hitler parallel. The elite Nazi paramilitary organization was called Schutzstaffel, and often refered to as the SS. The SS was chosen based primarily on race, but ideological position was very important as well. The symbol given to the SS to wear as a sign of its authority and loyalty to the party was...anyone...the lighting bolt. I will let you all draw your own conclusions, if any. I'm curious to hear if you think this is just a coincidence or another connection.

Megg001

March 20th, 2006, 2:33 am

I've also heard a lot about Hitler using particular "psychological" tricks on the people who would come to hear him speak...for example, he would allow them to wait for several hours for his arrival so that they got all fired up and it produced a sort of excitement/energy that would be associated with his arrival and subsequent speech.

Voldemort also uses little psychological tricks on his followers to keep them engaged in his regime...the problem with this is, with either person, you will always have your die-hard followers, but eventually the people who have been "tricked" will not only come to realize that they have been being roped along but will come to resent the leader that has used psychological trickery against them... (for a current example, note the Bush/Cheney plummeting polls...)

_Laura_

March 20th, 2006, 12:45 pm

“Like Hitler (Voldemort is a half blood too)! See! I think it's the case that the biggest bully takes their own defects and they put them on someone else, and they try to destroy them. And that's what he - Voldemort - does. That was very conscious.” -JKR BBC Newsround in 2000

It's like Hitler and the Arian ideal, to which he did not conform at all, himself. And so Voldemort is doing this also. He takes his own inferiority, and turns it back on other people and attempts to exterminate in them what he hates in himself.” -JKR CBCNewsWorld

for anyone who cares...

volatilisation - evaporation, to disappear without a trace
volatil(e) - fading, perishable, short-lived, transient, ...
volatiliser - to disappear without a trace
trier des personnes/choses sur le volet - to choose peope/thinks very carefully
volontaire - bulldog (not actually the dog, the word)
incendie volontaire - incendiarism
volonté - will, wish, willpower

hookedonmonics

March 20th, 2006, 5:24 pm

The parallel between Gandalf and Dumbledore is interesting. But, as Frodo went on ahead with his task thinking that Gandalf was gone forever, I think that (if the similarity is intentional) Harry would go forward without knowing of Dumbledore's continued activity (however that would play out) Overall, however I don't see JKR so directly and fully lifting from Tolkein.

Also, If the defeat of Grindewald occured in line with Hitler's time, I think he'd be more likely to be the Hitler character. Unless of course, Voldemort is Grindewald reincarnated. lol

About Voldemort committing suicide, the only way I could see it happening is if he felt sure he would soon be returned to another body, and discovered too late that his horcruxes were gone. But, I don't see a situation in which he would choose to do it. Ooh, now my mind is racing with bizarre scenarios. I better stop before I form some crazy theory....

magicalbeauty

April 4th, 2006, 12:41 am

Something that has caught my attention while reading the Harry Potter books (and forgive me if you've heard of this because i cannot remember if I came up with it on my own or not...) is the link between two specific 'things' in the world of Harry Potter and certain events in our own history.
First is the tie between the dreaded wizarding prison Azkaban and the equally dreaded (well maybe bot equally when dementors are taken into account...) muggle prison Alcatraz. Both have been said to be un-escapable (I don't think that is a word...), yet prisoners have escaped from both. A feat that shocked the world. So did J.K base her dreaded prison on Alcatraz?
The second is the amazing likeness between Voldemort and Adolf Hitler. (Forgive me if I happen to offend anyone with this comparison...) but both were men who commited, or attempted to commit, an amazingly evil act- the act of genocide. Voldemort's hatred for half-bloods and himself has lead him to possess so much hostility and hatred toward his father as well as himself. If I am remembering correctly killing off half-bloods or mudbloods was his main goal until Harry Potter came to his attention. And though Hitler's hatred may not have been the same, he still harnessed some type toward the Jewish (once again no offense to anyone who might take this offensively, just recounting history). Not to mention both were amazingly persuasive men who were able to gain hundreds or thousands of followers.
Well, just wanted to relate this topic. Let me know what you think...

art_is_hard

April 4th, 2006, 1:18 am

I think Hitler is closest to Grindlewald(sp)....same time period and all.

The Alcatraz and Azkaban thing though is interesting, I've never really thought about that.

Sorry my post isn't a very good addition....

joelle

April 4th, 2006, 1:25 am

I've always considered Voldemort very similar to Hitler. They are both murderous tyrants with desires to oppress and destroy all who are unworthy in their eyes. I'm sure that Hitler, like Voldemort, despised certain things about himself. Or, at least, Voldemort can be tied to Josef Mengelle (a Nazi who resembled a Gypsy; his first day on the job, he sent thousands of Gypsys to the gas ovens. He repeatedly tried to destroy things that he hated about himself.) Death Eaters of course can be compared to Nazis as well.
The Azkaban/Alcatraz point is very interesting...even the names are kind of similar.

AdharaLiliana

April 4th, 2006, 1:26 am

I don't know much about Alcatraz, but that was honestly my first thought when I found out more about Azkaban. I don't know if JKR meant to parallel it or not, but she rarely does anything by accident, it seems. Isn't Alcatraz deserted now? And if it is, and JKR took that into account, what does that mean for Azkaban in the seventh book? The dementors are getting harder and harder to control, or they're under control of someone besides the Ministry.. makes you wonder.

AgentSmith164

April 4th, 2006, 1:30 am

i had been thinking about the alcatraz/azkaban parallel for awhile and it just makes sense. aren't they both set on an island as well?

Chievrefueil

April 4th, 2006, 1:33 am

frank_KoG

April 4th, 2006, 1:47 am

I thought that all the dementors had left Azkaban and were offf breeding somewhere. JKR still could have based Azkaban off of Alcatraz whether or not she is British, its still a well known prison, they are oddly spelt and start with A :/. Azkaban however is apparently more remote than Acatraz though, since JKR was kinda vague in explaining its location - apparently Azkaban is North of North by x miles or something.

The Hitler-Voldie parrallels i'm not touching with a 10 foot poll though. I'm under the impression that Hitler has caused more deaths in reality than Voldie has caused or ever will cuase in a fantasy novel:nc:
i'll see if theres a similar Voldie-Hitler thread
btw AgentSmith nice Kindom Hearts

Heres something LV vs Hitler (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=82285)

Aluna

April 4th, 2006, 2:09 am

The first time I went to San Francisco, I was reading Prisoner of Azkaban, and I remember this odd (and happy?:)) feeling I had because of the parallel with Alcatraz. Alcatraz is definitely a very (in)famous prison, and quite a few movies have been made about it... it is also a prison that tourists can visit nowadays, and it gives you the creeps! There is a cell for punishments that is completely dark, empty, and sound-proof: I was there again this year and I got locked in (seriously :lol: ). The sensory deprivation is quite unbearable even for a couple of minutes; I couldn't imagine being shut there for one or more days... You can watch a video about Alcatraz where one former inmate says that when he got locked in that room, he tore off one of his buttons and would throw it in some random direction and then try to find it...

I remember actually thinking about JKR during my visit, about her phobia of small cages and tangible opposition to prisoner rights infringements around the world.

As for people who escaped -- I don't think Alcatraz is a replica to Azkaban in that respect. Only a couple of men were able to get past the defenses of the prison and the island, but there never was any proof that they swam successfully across the bay. And certainly no mass breakaways...

AdharaLiliana

April 4th, 2006, 5:15 am

There is a cell for punishments that is completely dark, empty, and sound-proof: I was there again this year and I got locked in (seriously ). The sensory deprivation is quite unbearable even for a couple of minutes; I couldn't imagine being shut there for one or more days...

I think that if JKR meant to parallel anything with Alcatraz, this kind of thing would be it. Every wizard that we've seen come back from Azkaban (Hagrid, Sirius) has come back scarred. Most of that was because of the dementors, but the dementors are sort of the epitome of being stuck alone with the very worst of thoughts/feelings. That, along with being stuck in a small, dark, confined place is enough to drive anyone mad easily. I'm glad you could provide us with some real experience of Alcatraz.

malebeste

April 4th, 2006, 7:15 pm

Voldemort sounds french (we know JKR studied at la sorbonne in Paris so she must remember some french) It could be vol de mort (flight of death)
I don't think it hes something to deal with german things, it means that he bring the death...

Oceania

April 4th, 2006, 9:41 pm

Hm. Forgive me if I state anything that's already been said. And I will stay away from the Hitler/WWII references as that's what has been discussed the most already.

HP real life references:
Nicolas Flamel was a real man in history, an alchemist/scientist. The myths and stories that surround him in real life are consistent with how the books portray him. And yes, he had a wife name Perenelle, too.

If you read Greek, Roman, Celtic, Egyptian, and Norse mythologies and histories, you will find TONS of little things---tons of little references. For example, in (Greek or Roman, I believe) a three headed dog named Cereberus guards the gates to the underworld...Fluffy, anyone? :) And this is just one example---many of the creatures she uses in her books are borrowed from mythology as we know it (hippogriff, shpynx, faeries, goblins, etc.)

The name Bellatrix also belongs to constellation. The name/constellation mean "female warrior". Sirius is also named after a constellation which is sometimes called the "dogstar". Draco and Regulus are also named after constellations.

There are many Christian and Pagan references throughout the books---they celebrate Christmas, Easter, and Halloween. The ghost of Hufflepuff is the Fat Friar. Harry was Christened.

There are SO many more, lol. In fact, this is my job :) I write articles for the MuggleNet encyclopedia about Harry Potter and it's connections with the real world.

magicalbeauty

April 4th, 2006, 11:07 pm

Just wanted to make a quick reply and clear up and comment on some things said about my post :)
First was the fact that the name Voldemort is possibly French therefore discrediting my Hitler comparison... I was not comparing them in origin or anything, only the similarities between their behaviors and methods.
Also thanks to Aluna for the information... and I deffinitly agree with AdharaLiliana about the dementors vs. dark room theory.
And, to Chievrefueil, Alcatraz is a very well known prison, and to someone as obviously historically educated as JKR could have easily made the connection.
Thanks to all for replying to my post!

Megg001

April 11th, 2006, 2:53 am

Retailmonica

April 16th, 2006, 2:33 am

I just want to make a few points on this subject:

A.) Reread that quote on Grindewald... she notes the pronunciation (it is said as Germans would say it...) She also notes that it does happen in 1945 on purpose!
B.) If you go to QQQ you can find an interview of hers which reads:

-Voldemort's a half-blood too.

-Like Hitler! See! I think it's the case that the biggest bully takes their own defects and they put them on someone else, and they try to destroy them. And that's what he -- Voldemort -- does. That was very conscious -- I wanted to create a villain where you could understand the workings of his mind, not just have a 2-D baddie, dressed up in black, and I wanted to explore that and see where that came from. Harry in Book Four is starting to come to terms with what makes a person turn that way. Because they took wrong choices and he Voldemort took wrong choices from an early age.

As you can see, she plainly references the man, but if you look at anything that JKR references, she draws parallels, she doesn't say "Voldemort is really the Wizard version of Hitler!" JKR says that real life and the wizarding world are linked. She doesn't even beat around the bush. I think this point is blatenly obvious in book 6. Arabella Figg even notices that the wizarding world is out of sorts!

Oceania

April 16th, 2006, 10:40 am

Wow, Ocenia, its really good to have you...I'm sure you have a ton of knowledge on this subject! Are there any myths/stories etc, that might give clues to some of the questions we want answered at the end of the series...for example, will Harry (our hero) live...etc...

Well, thanks! If you'd like, you can go to the HP encyclopedia on MuggleNet. I run/write the "Harry Potter and the Real World" section, which deals with myhtologies, astronomy, astrology, theology and folklore. I haven't updated in awhile, but I have some new material coming soon.

HermioneRox11

April 17th, 2006, 10:03 am

Wow, I like all of these theories!

However, I don't think that the Princess Diana one is plausible!

RonShudntDie

April 17th, 2006, 8:49 pm

Those are very good points...many people have brought up these ideas...let's expound upon them a bit...

I have read in some other places that the the night Hitler died is known as Walpugisnacht (Walpugis Night) and is thought to be the night when witches "come out"...I am guessing sort of like a Halloween type thing...(?)

Now, JK said in an interview (forgive me for not having the acutal quotes on this) that the Death Eaters were used to be known as the Knights of Walpurgis when they were serving Grindewald...

Hmmm...interesting...coincidence? I doubt it...

i know that was wirtten ages ago....
but do you guys remember that Sirius' mother was called Walburga? thats another form of the word Walburgis...

i found that on mugglenet. theres more here

http://mugglenet.com/books/name_origins.shtml
in case you havent looked there before. theres some interesting stuff, extending what oceania said.

goodglinda

April 18th, 2006, 11:02 pm

I know there have been plenty of threads that have lead into discussions over the theories of World War II and the whole entire Harry Potter series, but I could not find any threads dealing specifically with this matter.

In a recent post, I had said that, maybe because of my being Jewish, in my head, I had always somehow connected the Death Eaters and Voldemort to Nazis and Hitler. The whole concept of Muggleborns being oppressed as the Jews were during World War II or the Holocaust, has always been made extremely apparent to me in the series. And I have always wondered, is it just me or do other Jews or Gentiles believe/feel the same thing/way?

The actual word holocaust means the enitre or whole burning of someone or something. There have been many holocausts before the one we all refer to, some with and without the Jewish people. Some of you may have seen the film Hotel Rawanda which captures Rawanda's own tragic holocaust. The burning of Aaron's own to sons by God, was the first example of a holocaust (involving humans) explained in the Torah or Old Testament.

So, the big question is, is Jo Rowling creating her own Holocaust with these Muggleborns? Are we to compare the Holocaust we have mourned over the 6 million Jews to the one Jo is creating?

DevilishAngel

April 18th, 2006, 11:12 pm

I don't think I've ever had anyone put it into that perspective, honestly.

I don't see it that way, though. I see it as a book with connections to things that J.K. has seen and experienced, but nothing sure fire connection wise.

Armakillo

April 18th, 2006, 11:17 pm

I always though it was just representing racism. I can't see huge parallels between the Holocaust and HP.

queserasera

April 19th, 2006, 12:04 am

Events in Real life Connecting to Harry Potter (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=84367)

I know what you're talking about, it is VERY similar to World War II and the Holocaust (check out the link, there's some discussion on this topic) I'm also Jewish, and maybe I was too young when I started reading the books but the first things that came to mind were not Holocaust, but just oppression in general. So, there are connections, but I don't think it was the structure for the book.

I agree, many many parallels.

goodglinda

April 19th, 2006, 12:29 am

I don't really think it was the whole structure of the book. But, in some ways I think that Jo wanted us to make some sort of comparison. Not completely pile our whole belief system on to that theory, ya know?

Khushi

April 19th, 2006, 12:30 am

I always though it was just representing racism. I can't see huge parallels between the Holocaust and HP.
Yeah, I thought the same. (The KKK-like DE costumes influenced that thought even more, heh.) I never saw it from a WWII perspective. That's interesting.

potterfan_amuse

April 19th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Salazar Slytherin - Anton LaVey (he came up with somehting that fans has been driven too radical)
Voldemort - Charles Manson (murder, with his friends who follow him he calls 'family')

Wab

April 19th, 2006, 2:17 pm

I believe that Voldemort having a Muggle father parallels Hitler quite likely having a Jewish grandfather.

Hitler's Jewish "heritage" is an urban myth invented by non-Nazi anti-Semites to implicate the Jews in the Holocaust.

Megg001

April 29th, 2006, 6:40 pm

In regards to the Slytherin idea, there are many instances both in literature and real life where the person THEORIZING about an idea does not realize the implications of their fanatical followers moving forward with the idea. (Think Animal Farm) Communism in the early 20th century would be the most "real life" theory that comes to mind...any one else?

BadEyeBella

July 13th, 2006, 9:03 pm

Since it was all about football these days, I noticed somthing totally irrelevant, but quite interesting. Ronaldinho and Ron were both born in March, 1980. Ronaldinho's name is Ronaldo and Ron's name is Ronald. Both lived in poverty and in shadow of their brothers (in Ronaldinho's case, in shadow of his brother who was a football player. as well). Ron's greatest wish in PS/SS is to be the best quidditch player and Ronaldinho is the best football player. JKR couldn't have gone that deep because Ron was planned way before Ronaldinho became known, but it's kind of funny how similar their stories are.

DirtMcGirt

August 12th, 2006, 5:07 am

I may have read into this way too much, or maybe not enough, but get a lod of this...

I have been thinking about this a little bit, but I'm wondering, and this is WAY out there, but what if maybe, just maybe, Dumbledore's death can be a fictionalization of the death of Tupac Shakur...

This, of course, would lead to a death of a Notorious B.I.G. proportion, say, a former collaborator (i.e. Snape). That would lead me to believe that Voldemort to be in the mold of a Suge Knight, and Harry Potter be in the mold of someone who somehow escaped Suge (Voldemort)'s grasps, like Snoop Dogg.

I dunno. I'm kind of throwing it out there... Any thoughts??

-DMc

TheDarkOne

August 12th, 2006, 5:13 am

What!

jakeflash123

August 12th, 2006, 5:22 am

hmm, i think you are on to something. jo did say that she is an avid fan of gangster rap, i wouldn't be surprised if she is modeled the sixth book after tupac. the first book was eminem, maybe the last book will be fifty cent, with daniel radcliffe singing "take me to the candy shop".

ok seriously, the hp series has so many twists and plot devices that it could be related to almost any story. i bet you could find a way to relate it to the backstreet boys.

sorry if i sound abrasive, i'm not trying to be. i just started laughing out loud when i pictured jo with baggy jeans, beanie, three long necklaces and a mic rapping.

DirtMcGirt

August 12th, 2006, 5:29 am

blue3ski

August 12th, 2006, 5:37 am

I think it'd be better if you expounded on this--otherwise, you're not going to get many responses to this because a lot of members may be unable to understand what you're trying to say.

DirtMcGirt

August 12th, 2006, 5:56 am

I think it'd be better if you expounded on this--otherwise, you're not going to get many responses to this because a lot of members may be unable to understand what you're trying to say.

OK. I would be MORE than happy to!!!

First, and foremost, Dumbledore, like Tupac, foresaw his own demise (see CoS, PoA or GoF in proportion to "All Eyez On Me" or "Makeveli: The Don Killunmnati (Seven Day Theory)...

Moreover, DD knew who would end his life, eventually, just lioke 'Pac...

But Tupac would still talk (e.g. every SINGLE album he's come out with since hid death), as, no doubt, DD will through his portrait...

As Harry said, so long as the memory of DD lives, he will NEVER die, just like 'Pac...

Katzchen

August 12th, 2006, 7:49 am

I have no idea what you are saying, sorry.

PunkRockGirli

August 12th, 2006, 8:25 am

I really don't want to know :lol:........................

selfdestruct

August 12th, 2006, 8:43 am

oh man, i'm so slayed.
if dumbledore= tupac, big= snape and voldemort= suge knight, does that mean that bella (the mistress)= lil kim, wormtail or lucius (weak seeking power or insane baller)= puffy, and mcgonnagal (greatest after dumbledore/voldemort)= nas or jay-z? oohh this is def the craziest theory i've ever read.

hmm, i think you are on to something. jo did say that she is an avid fan of gangster rap, i wouldn't be surprised if she is modeled the sixth book after tupac. the first book was eminem, maybe the last book will be fifty cent, with daniel radcliffe singing "take me to the candy shop".
hahahahahahaahahhahaha thanks for the laugh.

Queen_Beruth

August 12th, 2006, 10:47 am

blessed_dragon

August 12th, 2006, 10:51 am

I think you are right about this being a crazy Harry Potter theory, but I'm not sure it's the craziest. Anything involving the Giant Squid and Grawp automatically takes the top bill on that one, sorry.

However, you have definitely gotten me thinking about Dumbledore being like Tupac. I must point out that Tupac died after Jo started writing, though, so any similarities are coincidental.

ProfRavenclaw

August 12th, 2006, 4:19 pm

hmm, i think you are on to something. jo did say that she is an avid fan of gangster rap,
Can you provide a link? It sounds very out of character. JKR's interest in American culture appears to be zero.
I think Jakeflash was joking. ;)
I don't think this idea is at all likely but it's an interesting therory and it made me laugh.

Eighth_Year

August 12th, 2006, 7:17 pm

I didnt read the whole topic but I did read the first page and another tie in to Hitler would be that Voldemort only killed the important wizards. The "lesser" where killed by the death eaters. Much like Hitler, Voldemort sits in the background and basically is just calling shots.

mileyhp

August 13th, 2006, 4:40 am

I always thought Harry Potter was like World War 2.

Lord Voldemort is Hitler
Harry Potter/Order is The Allies
WW2 is The Second War in Harry Potter
The Jewish population in HP is Muggleborn witches and wizards

Lord Voldemort is doing what Hitler did and try to 'purify' world. So if JK is basing HP on WW2, then Harry Potter will defeat Lord Voldemort.
Good theory! And I know this isn't about HP, but McGonagall/Snape? UGH! :no:

Stumper67

August 13th, 2006, 7:17 am

I think it's pretty safe to say that Grindelwald either A) was Hitler himself, or B) opperated closely with Hitler during World War II...

TheInvisibleF

August 14th, 2006, 12:55 am

I thought it was interesting that around the time the wizarding word thought it was most safe (late eighties to early ninties) the world order which had existed in the real world was crumbling and everything was changing.

OwlPatronus

August 14th, 2006, 1:43 am

I think it's pretty safe to say that Grindelwald either A) was Hitler himself, or B) opperated closely with Hitler during World War II...
Yes I'd agree, or Hitler was under the imperius curse. Remember Scrimgeur's comment: "It'd be a fine lookout for the muggles if their prime minister was put under the imperius curse." In any case, it's pretty clear WWII had a magical component to it in addition to the part we know about.

LuvHP_001

August 14th, 2006, 5:17 am

The thing that I was always thinking while reading the books is how, like many people said:

Voldemort is Hitler, an evil man who savagely killed people in his way or those who did not join him/think like him. He uses the three unforgivable spells that torture and kill people. Plus, he hates muggleborns and tries to get rid of that race and he himself is part muggle. Just like Hitler who was part Jewish and wanted to destroy the whole Jewish race. Lastly, he has a following who all think like him.

Muggles are like Jewish people for very obvious reasons.

Half-bloods and half-creatures face discrimination like interracial couples and interracial children.

The two wars remind of the two world wars with the second being much more significant.

weasleygirl07

August 15th, 2006, 2:11 am

intersting theory....and entirley possible

Dancing_Blade

October 8th, 2006, 9:29 pm

Great theory, but don't forget that both sides lost many people in WW2. If Voldemort stands for Hitler, Harry stands for one of the survivors or not?
And don't forget that Hitler commited suicide. But Voldemort is afraid of death more than anything. Hmmm...

Quent

November 26th, 2006, 10:25 am

everything that i have read on thid page is very interesting...to bad my least favorite subject is history :D ,well,i like African,Egyptian,and African American history and thats about it

padfootandme

December 25th, 2006, 6:10 am

And don't forget that Hitler commited suicide. But Voldemort is afraid of death more than anything. Hmmm...

Yeah, I don't think we can expect Voldemort to kill himself anytime soon. Hahaha, but it would be an easy end to this all.

WickedCharm

March 18th, 2007, 6:10 pm

Fanaticforever

March 18th, 2007, 6:58 pm

I always thought Harry Potter was like World War 2.

Lord Voldemort is Hitler
Harry Potter/Order is The Allies
WW2 is The Second War in Harry Potter
The Jewish population in HP is Muggleborn witches and wizards

Lord Voldemort is doing what Hitler did and try to 'purify' world. So if JK is basing HP on WW2, then Harry Potter will defeat Lord Voldemort.

Correction, all historical accounts say that Adolf Hitler killed himself, not some other person

red_witch_11

March 18th, 2007, 7:58 pm

Also, did anyone see the Death Eater robes in the GoF movie? They look familiar... :scared:

i always thought that harry potter and the civil war was a "real life" rweference. but thats just one of those gut feelings things. there seems to be more connection with HP and WW2. of course those robes really do look like the KKK. and jk does check over every movie to make sure it fits well with the current/coming books.

[QUOTE=Cadia;3588954]Yeah, that was pretty scary...I don't remember the exact description from the book, but I definitely never assosciated the Death Eaters with KKK until the movie. /QUOTE]

i did. i dont remember why, though. i haven't read the books in a while (please don't hurt me). i've been meaning to go back and reread them. but i do remember that i had reasons to think that. i just forgot them. (time to go do some civil war/HP research! )

Directly from mugglenet. (forgive me if someone has already done this)

Voldemort, Lord - There was a dark wizard in medieval times named Voldermortist. In another language, Voldermortist means "Lord of Evil" or "Dark Lord." Legend has it that Voldermortist once tried to destroy Merlin before the time of King Arthur (Mr. Weasley?) by bewitching good people and simply bribing those who already were evil. Legend has it that Merlin destroyed Voldermortist by using a simple Paralyzing Charm (full body bind?), fed him to the many-headed-beast (Fluffy?) of the lake, the Lady of the Lake's pet (Giant Squid?), freed the bewitched people, and destroyed the evil men. That was maybe twelve, thirteen years before Arthur (how long it was from Voldemort's destruction until Harry started Hogwarts). In many European languages, "mort" or "mord" refer to "death or evil." In French, "vol-de-mort" means "flight from death" (meaning escaping death). Also in French, "vol" translates as "the act of stealing," giving Voldemort's name the alternate meaning to "steal from death." In Norwegian and Danish, "vold" means "violence." In Danish, "volde" means "to cause" and could be derived from the Latin "valde," meaning "great, exceedingly, strongly, powerfully." Using these defintions Lord Voldemort's name would then mean "excessive, great, or extreme death."

sry about this, i keep posting after reading every little thing. on the draco thing. draco in latin means dragon (right?). i'm sure the hogwarts crest has some form of a reference to real life. has there ever in history been a reference to a dragon, in a political cartoon or something?

Wright1771

March 19th, 2007, 9:52 am

The Death Eaters in GoF reminded me of the KKK. Anti Jew, Black, Catholic, you name it! White Supremacists...where Death Eaters are anti-muggles. The same, some how!

Megg001

April 2nd, 2007, 2:35 am

The new cover adds an interesting Roman-esque clue to the end of the series...any ideas on greek/roman mythology to answer some of the HP questions?

Smantie

April 2nd, 2007, 7:46 pm

The whole Voldemort-Hilter theory is very interesting, especially when you consider how they classed their view of 'dirty blood'- just one grandparent who was Jewish/Muggle was enough to, in their minds, 'pollute the blood'. Which is ironic in both cases as Voldemort's paternal family were all muggle, and there are (still unconfirmed) rumours that Hitler's paternal grandfather was a Jew.

~Smantie~

Lilkittikat

April 2nd, 2007, 7:57 pm

The Death Eaters in GoF reminded me of the KKK. Anti Jew, Black, Catholic, you name it! White Supremacists...where Death Eaters are anti-muggles. The same, some how!
I agree. The mask thing in the OOTP trailer reminds me a little of what the white hoods as well...
The whole Voldemort-Hilter theory is very interesting, especially when you consider how they classed their view of 'dirty blood'- just one grandparent who was Jewish/Muggle was enough to, in their minds, 'pollute the blood'. Which is ironic in both cases as Voldemort's paternal family were all muggle, and there are (still unconfirmed) rumours that Hitler's paternal grandfather was a Jew.

Yeah, I agree. And the Voldemort/Hitler parallel always jumps out at me a lot.

Megg001

April 10th, 2007, 2:41 am

It seems very clear that the directors have "imposed" and Americanized impression of the death-eater costumes by including the kkk-esque hoods and robes. I think it is a really nice detail because it drives home the kind of ridiculous racism (for lack of a better word) that the death eaters believe. It also seems like groups like the Nazis or the KKK are always floating around but it just takes a very dynamic leader (e.g. Voldemort) to bring the group out into the open. It always seems like, in the real world, eventually the "good guys" prevail over the more fanatical groups. However, this can happen over the course of many years with each side having small "victories" along the way. I would imagine that because Jo has to deal with this issue in a final battle over the course of one last book, she will ultimately have good (and hopefully Harry) survive. Are the good guys winning and Harry surviving mutally exclusive? I don't think that Harry can sacrifice himself because of what the prophesy states "neither can live while the other survives" which would imply that if Harry dies Voldemort can "live." Can Voldemort "live" and have the "good guys" prevail? Could Hitler have continued to live after WWII and maintain his group of followers? However, on a smaller scale, fanatical groups do continue to be developed and are thriving in many countries around the world. Nazi organizations continue in the US...will this be the fate of the death eaters without Voldemort, small groups of people who share a common, biased view-point? Or will another leader step up to lead the groups?

Megg001

April 21st, 2007, 5:55 am

In the mid 16th century, Elis Gruffydd wrote a mythological account of Taliesin which drew from Celtic folklore. Some scholars believe that Gruffydd recorded a tradition that existed before his time.

Birth
According to the mythologized version of Taliesin's birth, he began life as boy named Gwion Bach, a servant to the old crone Ceridwen. Ceridwen had a beautiful daughter and an ugly son named Morfran (also called Avagddu), whose appearance no magic could cure, so she sought to give him the gift of wisdom as compensation. Using a magical cauldron, Ceridwen cooked a potion granting wisdom, which had to be cooked for a year and a day. A blind man named Morda tended the fire beneath the cauldron, while Gwion Bach stirred the concoction. The first three drops of liquid from this cauldron gave wisdom; the rest was a fatal poison. Three hot drops spilled onto Gwion's hand as he stirred, burning him. He instinctively put his hand in his mouth, and instantly gained great wisdom and knowledge. The first thought that occurred to him was that Ceridwen would be very angry at him for doing this. Scared, he ran away, but all too soon he heard her fury and the sound of her pursuit.

As Ceridwen chased Gwion, he turned himself into a rabbit. In return, she became a dog. He then became a fish and jumped into a river, and in response, she then turned into an otter. He turned into a bird, and in response she became a hawk. Finally, he turned into a single grain of corn. She became a hen and ate him, and became pregnant. She resolved to kill the child, knowing it was Gwion, but after he was born, he was so beautiful that she couldn't go through with the deed. Instead, she threw him in the ocean inside a leather bag. The story of Gwion and the wisdom potion bears a strong resemblance to the Irish tale of Fionn mac Cumhail and the salmon of wisdom, indicating that both stories may have a common source.

Discovery by Elphin
The baby was found by Elphin, the son of Gwyddno Garanhir, 'Lord of Ceredigion', who found the child while fishing for salmon. He was very surprised at the whiteness of the boy's brow, he exclaimed "Tal iesin", meaning "radiant brow." Taliesin replied, "Yes, that will do well enough." While Elphin carried the baby back to his father in a basket, thinking of what his father would say when he learned that Elphin had caught a baby, but no salmon, the baby began to recite beautiful poetry, saying:

Fair Elphin, cease your lament!
Swearing profits no-one.
It is not evil to hope
Nor does any man see what supports him,
Not an empty treasure is the prayer of Cynllo,
Nor does God break his promise.
No catch in Gwyddno's weir
Was ever as good as tonight's.
"Fair Elphin, dry your cheeks!
Such sorrow does not become you,
Although you consider yourself cheated
Excessive sorrow gains nothing,
Nor will doubting God's miracles.
Although I am small, I am skilful.
From the sea and the mountain,
From the river's depth
God gives His gifts to the blessed.
"Elphin of the generous spirit,
Cowardly is your purpose,
You must not grieve so heavily.
Better are good than evil omens.
though I am weak and small,
Spumed with Dylan's wave,
I shall be better for you
Than three hundred shares of salmon.
"Elphin of noble generosity,
Do not sorrow at your catch.
Though I am weak on the floor of my basket,
There are wonders on my tongue.
"While I am watching over you,
no great need will overcome you.
be mindful of the name of the Trinity
And none shall overcome you."
Amazed, Elphin asked how a baby could talk. Again Taliesin replied with poetry, recounting the transformation chase between himself and Ceridwen. Finishing, he said:

"Floating like a boat in its waters,
I was thrown into a dark bag,
and on an endless sea, I was set adrift.
Just as I was suffocating, I had a happy omen,
and the master of the Heavens brought me to liberty."

At the court of Maelgwn
A few years later, when Taliesin turned thirteen, Elphin was at the court of King Maelgwn, who demanded that Elphin praise him and his court. Elphin refused, claiming Taliesin was a better bard and that his wife a prettier woman than anyone the king had in his court. Although he was not present, Taliesin knew what was happening, because he was a seer, and told Elphin's wife. Maelgwn's son Rhun went to Elphin's house to seduce his wife and prove Elphin's claims weren't true. Rhun got her drunk, and when she passed out, Rhun tried to take off her wedding ring to prove her unfaithfulness. When the ring wouldn't come off, he cut off her finger instead. When King Maelgwn attempted to show the finger to Elphin, he pointed out that his wife cut her fingernails more often than the owner of the finger. Moreover, the fingernails had bread dough under them, but his wife always had servants knead the dough. Moreover, his wife's ring was loose on her finger, but this one was tight.

Maelgwn then demanded Taliesin come to his court to prove wrong the claim that Taliesin was a better bard than the ones in his court. Taliesin responded with a challenge in which both he and the king's bards were to compose an epic in only twenty minutes. The royal bards failed at the task, but when it came time for Taliesin to recite his, he caused a massive wind to rattle the castle. Frightened, Maelgwn sent for Elphin. Taliein's next song caused Elphin's chains to detach. Maelgwn challenged the pair to a horse race. Taliesin arrived the next day with an old, weak horse. As each of the king's horses passed him at the very start of the race, Taliesin touched its rump with a twig of holly. When they had all passed, he dropped his hat to the ground, and the king's horses turned back right before crossing the finish line, stopping at the holly twigs Taliesin had laid there, and began to dance. Taliesin's old horse strolled to the finish line and won the race.

from wikipedia

There's a lot of interesting references in here that we don't necessarily have true answers for...the otter (isn't this Hermione's Patronus?) the holly, etc.