Spinner's End #14 - Demise of the Dark Lord

Discussion for Spinner's End #14 - Demise of the Dark Lord (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se14.shtml) by Lady Lupin.

Well, I thought that this was a really brilliant editorial. I have always thought that the patronus charm would play some part in voldemort's demise...(I even wrote a fanfiction with that in it...)

I had a thought though, that maybe a patronus could directly affect Voldemort, because he does have so little humanity left. I mean, it's always seemed like to me that Voldemort was making himself into a Dementor... not on purpose, but... he's like an uber dementor.... scary...

Lady Lupin, I always enjoy your thought provoking editorials. But this one... this is the icing on the cake. :tu: Absolutely superb! I have been thinking for the last 2 books how LOVE could possibly be used as a weapon. I couldn't wrap my mind around the incongruency of love and weapon. There is no way in my mind to combine the two. I never even thought of love, used as protection, as a weapon.

As usual you have come up with a stunning new idea that will be talked about in the chats and forums for weeks to come. I'm sure JKR's comment on the ideas she has seen in the fan sites has to refer to you.

:clap:

hey i just had a thought. If harry fears dementors more than Voldermort than does that mean he would rather face Voldermort than a dementor????? :sigh:

"Maybe it's Harry's fate to be Dumbledore to the next Harry."
Well said. From when I first started thinking up theories, I've been thinking history will repeat itself somehow and that evil will never be fully defeated.
Remember the relief when Grindelwald was gone and the subsequent horror when Voldemort emerged.

IIRC, Tom Riddle left Hogwarts at about the time Grindelwald was defeated. Perhaps there's a connection? It would certainly explain why he fears Dumbledore so much. He knows he did it once... And then there's the fact he had a scar too

I would first like to congratulate you on this wonderful editorial,Well written (as always!). I have always thought dementors would play a part in the final story somewhere, due to their continued presence within the books. Your editorial just made it seem so plausable that they could turn up in the way that you described. Again, well done! :clap: :cool:

Lady Lupin - you're my hero! Love your work. I get so excited when I see your name next to 'Today's updates' and again this one did not let me down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Lady Lupin, you've done it again! Do you think that you could be channelling Jo??

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! I had been fiddling with the idea of a patronus charm coming into play during the final battle ... Though until I read your editorial I'd dubbed it a "lost cause."

WELL DONE! You've got such eloquence when it comes to these theories ... I just love it. And I'm with Madam Rosmerta on this one, are you sure you're not channeling Jo?

Hello Lady Lupin,

this editorial conjured up a great vision not unlike a special, blazing Phoenix Patronus that would protect Harry and all the ones we learned to love in the series. In CoS, Prof. Lockhart lost all his memories and what seems to be a huge part of his sense of self; we met him again in OOTP and we know what has become of him. Such a fate is certainly worse than death...

In many ways, I think Lockhart resembles Voldemort. Steeling peoples memories and their lives. Lockhart's punishment in CoS was brilliant, he tasted his own "medecine". Would Voldemort be punished in a similar way? If he loses his memories and sense of self, he will be far worse than dead. To make the punishment more hellish, he might keep a glimpse of consciousness, just enough to realize how trapped he ended up to be, for like eternity...

Hopefully, when he is vanquished all our beloved characters will be still alive and happy. Harry certainly deserves a happy life with his new family and Ginny.

Great job!

Karima

Personally, I think nothing would hurt Voldemort more than for him to live, but lose all of his powers. While he seeks to evade death forever, living life as a Muggle would terrify him. In his own words, he knew "he was special." To lose his powers, to stop being a Wizard, would remove that special nature from him, and perhaps be such a shock that would prefer death over living life as a Muggle.

My one problem with the Dementors finishing Voldemort off is that he has lost so much of his humanity that he wouldn't be seen as worthwhile prey by them. In many ways he has come to resemble them, what value would be sucking a small fragment of a soul from him?

Once again, a great thought provoking editorial. Personally, I believe we've just been treated to a early glimpse of the true final chapters of book 7. It just all seems so plausible. Wonderful!

I very much enjoy your work Lady Lupin, and I was very happy to see that they gave you a section to yourself.

I was thinking about your theory and something came to me that I don't think you considered. It has been said that Voldy does not beleive light magic is worth anything and that he underestimates it. Wouldn't that mean that he would either refuse to congure a patronus, or forget how to do so, since it is such an "unimportant" spell. He did emerse himself in the dark arts once he left school, so maybe he wiped it from him memory in order to replace it with something he felt would be more powerful, something dark.


Just a thought....

Your editrorial was excellent though, great connection between love and the partonus charm, how the heck did this not scream out at us when we were all thinking of how Harry would love Voldemort to death. :clap:

BRAVO!

I LOVE this editorial. I love Lady Lupin as well. I've seen threads abt how wud i FEEL wn Voldemort is Dead, but never "HOW WILL HE DIE?" I didn't think of the Patronus Charm, but abt the veil. I think it wud be more fitting (and dramatically ironic) that he got his immortality but lived with his soul sucked out. I agree with WhiteBee, regarding the Patronus Charm:
how the heck did this not scream out at us when we were all thinking of how Harry would love Voldemort to death
I couldnt think how love cud be a tangible thing, let alone a weapon.
I also agree with Donal Graeme:
My one problem with the Dementors finishing Voldemort off is that he has lost so much of his humanity that he wouldn't be seen as worthwhile prey by them. In many ways he has come to resemble them, what value would be sucking a small fragment of a soul from him?
Unless Harry got thm to suck out the soul from the horcruxes, it won't really be an appetising meal!! But I guess if they're hungry, they'll eat anything, even if it's just a small amount.

The idea of a Dementor sucking out the remaining soul fragment within Voldemort, leaving his body to live forever because of an undestroyed Horcrux was both creative and inspired, LadyLupin. This was an excellent and thought provoking editorial!

Towards the end of the editorial you discuss the potential of someone uniting Voldemort's soulless body with an undestroyed Horcrux, and how this potential would symbolize the threat of evil returning for Harry. I really love this idea but if JKR wants a more definitive end for Voldemort, then perhaps you could extend this line of thinking so that Harry finds and destroys any remaining Horcruxes after Voldemort has suffered the Dementor's kiss.

I like that idea about Harry being helped to realise that revenge is not the reason that must be driving him. It seems like such a 'harry-like' lesson to have to learn and i think it would be really good to have Snape play a part in the process. I also don't believe, and am glad that Harry cannot/will not use AV, it really does make sense as i think you proved admirably in this ed. As Gandhi said "An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind"

I loved this piece! I've believed for a long time that Harry will not be willing or able to defeat V. with dark magic but rather, as you put it 'light' magic. I just wasn't able to make the connection, as others have said, as to 'how' light/love could defeat V. This is brilliant. I agree that you may have just given us a glimpse of bood 7. Now... go write something else. I'd love to read more. Thanks!

Hello All,

Glad to see the article stirring ideas around. Something came to me via my email from a fellow sleuth that I wanted to share...

Remember Harry's DADA essay for Snape? They disagreed abou the best way to fight Dementors? I was curious about that, because we have only been told about the Patronus and Jo doesn't tell us what Snape favors. Kevin suggests that Snape may use Occlumency. Remember, Sirius tells us that he slipped past the Dementors because he could transform to his animagus dog and they had a harder time sensing his "less human" emotions. Could Voldemort employ Occlumency to fight the Dementors? If so, how would that effect my suggested scenario? Would there be too many? Would his worst memories or fears overcome him as Harry's used to? If Voldemort's worst fear is death, and I think it clearly is, could his fear prevent him from summoning his best defense?

Mind you, I think that my ideas may have something to do with the conclusion, but I also think we are not finished with the Veil. There are many places and magical objects, creatures and people who could figure into the story. It's always a question of when and how.

Happy sleuthing,

Lady Lupin

As with all the editorials you write, I loved every word of this. Like many other people on here, I too have thought about what role the Dementors will play in the last book, and if they could be used to finish Voldemort off. Your editorial seemed to cover everything, from how Harry would ward off the dementors and subsequently send them Voldemort's way. To what shape Harry's Patronus might take. To Dumbledore saying there are worst things than death. To how love would also factor into Voldemort's demise.
Voldemort would have his wish - he would be "immortal." But what a heinous immortality to contemplate! Perhaps this is the fate of Voldemort. He will live forever, as he always wished, but with no awareness of himself, no power, no friends, and no hope - the epitome of Hell. This would be so ironic and brillient, I really hope it happens. I think it would be a very fitting end for Voldemort.
Another though occured to me too, if what you said in your editorial happened, and Harry conjured a Pheonix Patronus, it would emphasise what Dumbledore said: "I'll only be gone when no one remains loyal to me." Again very fitting.
Well done on a fantastic editorial, it's something I really could se happening in the final book. :clap:

Wow Wow Wow!

I don't know if you've written an amazing fanfic or if you hit the nail on the head! You might have just exposed something VERY important. I got chills when you described the possible Patronae scene, particularly Dumbledore rising from the ashes in the form of Harry's patronus.

Question.....what happens to a soul-less body once a dementor kisses a person? It is still biologically alive, sooooo? Is there a special ward at St. Mungo's for these victims?

Great editorial. In some ways, I like the idea of Harry's patronus changing to be a phoenix because it would be like Harry was Dumbledore's rebirth. I'm not sure how I feel about him losing that connection to his father, though.

I, like the e-mailer, thought immediately about Snape's other way to fight Dementors. Surely Voldemort knows about that. I also think it would be really interesting to see Snape's patronus. Apparently he can make one, to communicate with the order.

On the idea of what happens if Voldemort gets a dementor's kiss but still has a Horcrux, I wonder about that. The purpose of a Horcrux seems to be to keep the main soul piece Earth-bound. It was to allow Vapormort to get a body back. So maybe if the main soul piece is consumed, the Horcrux doesn't really do anything. Then again, the diary had the capacity to make a new body. Maybe the hypothetical missing one could do the same.

I definitely absolutely agree that dementors and patronuses will be a big deal. I hope someone teaches Harry how to send messages by patronus, since he'll come of age and join the Order. I think it would be really interesting, though, and sort of parallel with Voldemort's unprecedented multiple Horcruxes, if Harry discovers he can make multiple patronuses and somehow uses that to round up dementors and make them surround Voldemort.

Well, that was just magnificent, Lady L.

LadyLupin I do believe this is my favorite of your many brilliant editorials! I also believe you have presented a wonderful, plausible idea for an ending. There is an answer to the question of Voldemort/Death Eaters being able to conjure the Patronus Charm. JKR stated that it's very hard for Dark magic to interfere with the Patronus charm(I can never remember where, but I will try to find it and give a link). The only question I had was, were you saying one of the things Snape is telling Harry(flight scene), is that Harry needs to learn Occlumency? That would be the only thing I would disagree with, Dumbledore has told Harry he no longer needs to learn it. Anyway, great editorial, as I already stated your best one yet!

Misskneazle - no, I'm not saying Harry has to learn Occlumency. I agree that it will prove unnecessary for him. I think Snape values it, though, and sees Harry's lack of ability to do it as a weakness. I do think some non-verbal "quick draw" ability would be a nice thing for Harry to have. It does hold Harry back in a standard duel. But I don't see the ending as a standard duel, so... I don't think Harry really needs it as much as Snape or Voldemort, since he has other gifts.

Gotcha LadyLupin, thanks for clearing that up:)

Terrifically thoughtful and insightful editorial. Not to mention really caring.

The thought of Harry having to commit a murder is unpalatable to many readers. Having the dementors finish Voldemort's reign of terror would certainly let Harry Off the hook. What a twist it would be to have the Dementors be the good guys who defeat evil! Harry and friends just look on from the side, casting the Patronus spell to protect themselves while the Dementors feast on the Death Eaters. Strange concept but totally possible.

And it is satisfying to have Voldemort and the Death Eaters "fall on their own sword" as Lockhart did, their release of the Dementors from Azkaban eventually causing their own demise.

Personally, I'm drawn (more humorously) to the idea of Dementors as Horcrux Nifflers. Remember how Hagrid's Nifflers went out searching for anything shiny? I think it would be great if Harry was able to use the Dementors to go out sniffing about to find Voldemort's Horcruxes -- which contained such tastey little bits of the Dementors favorite food -- human soul. But I'm having a hard time picturing Harry putting a collar and leash around a Dementor... I don't know.

And I really like the discussion point that Voldemort doesn't have much of a soul left to offer the Dementors. He's slim pickins' for hungry Dementor babies. The Dementors seek happiness. And I'm not convinced the Death Eaters generally have much of that to offer. But perhaps an event will transpire in the book in which the Death Eaters are victorious over something and wildly happy. At that moment the Dementors swoop down on them and have lunch.

About channeling Jo...I thought someone had to be dead before you could channel their spirit. God forbid!

Anyway...brilliant as always Lady Lupin.

Wonderful as always..... I have hoped for a while now that the final battle would take place behind the locked door at the MOM and some how the people of Harry's life that met an untimely death would somehow rise to his aid again.

Dememtors feast on the happy thoughts of people. So as far as the dememtors go, I think after Voldemort is taken care of, I would really like to see them to die of over eating.

Question: could Voldemort conjure a Patronus, given his angry, embittered state?

Another thought, LadyLupin: Would Voldemort even need to conjure a Patronus? If Mad-Eye can kill a spider with the Avada Kedavra curse, why couldn't Voldemort kill a non-human, a Dementor even, with the curse? We can understand why normal wizards wouldn't want to use an Unforgivable Curse (that one-way ticket to Azkaban is no prize), but why wouldn't Voldemort just Avada Kedavra the Dementors?

"Kill the spare" was all he said when Cedric showed up with Harry at the graveyard. Totally unconcerned about the morality of killing. Wht not kill any and all Dementors that turned up as well?

WOW!!! This is BRILLIANT! What a wonderful concept and beautifully put! Jo herself could only put it better- and she just might! I believe you may have hit the proverbial nail on the head!

Your editorial missed one instance of Harry using the Patronus Charm.
In Goblet of Fire he uses it during the third task, when he sees a Dementor but then realizes it's a Boggart. (page 623, US paperback edition)
But since the thought used to conjure it is rather similar to the thought used for the one in Order of the Phoenix, I can see why you would omit it.

Anyway, great editorial, I always like to read your thoughts and opinions. Like someone else has said, this would be the ultimate form of poetic and ironic justice for Voldemort.

Rose

Question.....what happens to a soul-less body once a dementor kisses a person? It is still biologically alive, sooooo? Is there a special ward at St. Mungo's for these victims?

Did anyone answer this and I missed it? If not...if the Death Eaters (or anyone else for that matter) were to be picked off as described by Lady Lupin, what would happen to all those bodies? Surely, they couldn't be buried. Would they need magical aid for basic biological sustinence or can these victims still function in a zombie-like fashion? Would they be passed through the veil as a sort of assisted suicide?

A couple thoughts of note:

In HBP, Harry actually tells us that Snape can not conjure a patronus....He is thinking of how he will not do well on a DADA essay because he disagrees with Snape as how best to deal with dementors...It is one JKR's throwaway lines that could mean something much larger in regards to the story.

The spell that defeated Grindewald, and the one Voldemort needed to deflect with the shield in OOTP will somehow play part in Voldemorts undoing. We do not know if they were some form of a patronus...could be.

The gleem of triumph will be explained and perhaps shed the light needed to understand why the spell Harry uses will defeat Voldemort.

I though the editorial raised some very good points!

This is an excellent question. When the Kiss was used on prisoners, they were presumably kept at Azkaban until their body eventually died, yes? But what about innocent victims? A ward in St. Mungo's? We really don't now. They would certainly be completely helpless, from what we know. What would happen to them? We only know of Azkaban and St. Mungo's as possible places that could hold these victims. The Veil is a possibility, but JKR says it's only been used for study, does she not? If there is another option, I don't think we've heard about it yet.

Excellent! Well done! I do believe you are on to something here.
I have a thought: Doesn't Volde/deatheaters have a patronuse ...the Dark Mark? the Skull or was it a snake in the sky?

wow. At this point I'm too floored by the ideas in your latest editorial to say much. I do find your "lets say this is the end of book 7" scenario eerily convincing. I'm sure you're right that the DA and OOP are going to work together - and if it was the final confrontation that would be very dramatic. Loved your solution to Dumbledore can't be dead :tu:

This is an absolutely brilliant editorial! Simply wonderful! I enjoyed reading it and I love how you put it together!





P.s.: Could I please borrow your brilliant mind for one day so I can write a really good essay for my english class? ;)

As always, outstanding editorial! I love the idea of Voldemort ironicslly aving his soul sucked out to live in a kind of hell for all eternity on the earth. A fitting revenge.

I wondered as I was reading about the dementor essay that Snape made Harry write. What could be more effective than a patronus? Maybe SNape knew a way to control them? Well, I hope that Snape can make a powerful patronus himself, either way.

WOW

JKR just had a heart attack because you just wrote her ending (and if that wasn't it, she just changed it).

Oh, Joe Schmo! Don't say that! I love sleuthing, but the idea of giving our beloved writer even a slight tummy ache is horrible!

I think that my ending is great too, but I don't take into account a lot of things that we know must be resolved - the gleam of triumph, Wormtail... places we may need to revisit, Sirius' mirror, Snape's resolution - who knows what else might be involved. However, if I tried to take all of the loose threads and put them together in one editorial, I would have written my own Book Seven! Fortunately, I have my own very different book to focus on.

So, I hope I am right enough to amuse Jo and wrong enough not to give her a moment's angst.

Lady Lupin, you have made my day.

I always thought it would we wonderfull cool and ironic for Voldemort to be Kissed, but I never imagined how that would happen. This wonderful editorial puts it all in perspective, and creates a situation that I am hard-pressed to find a single fault with. It's more than plausible that your scenario could come true, word for word. And I believe that's partly dut to you skirting the controversial issues and bringing out what really matters.

This is a brilliant idea, eloquently written. I am speechless.

:clap:

Wow! Very inspiring. You've done it again.

Wow, this was a very good editorial. Now I am interested in whether or not Voldemort could indeed cast a Patronus if he had wanted to. If the Dementors turned thir backs on the Dark Lord...somehow...And if he has never felt love, how would he be able to protect himself? This editorial has really got me thinking now. :lol:

This was truly brilliant. You've obviously thought it out carefully and the contrast of light and dark seems to be a critical element to be played out in the end. Your editorial makes the sub-theme of Light versus Dark appear to be the basis for unifying the various themes in the series and the means of wrapping up the loose ends that JKR will need to bring together if she truly means to end the series with the seventh book.
I can imagine Jo reading this editorial and wondering how you could have known this was the direction she was planning to take. I wouldn't be surprised if each of the details you posed, with further analysis, would lead to the same conclusion JKR is planning.

Excellent, Awesome, Outstanding. I'm torn between feeling elated that this would make a fantastic ending to the book and sad that you could actually be right and it won't be complete and utter surprise. I could totally see it happening this way. I thought I gave a lot of thought to the books and the ending and my theories, but every time I read one of your essays I feel a rookie.

I was just blown away by this essay and very excited by the way you laid it out. This is the end result I wanted for Harry, but couldn't put together how he would use Love as a weapon. I had pictured a show down with Voldemort and Harry ala a duel and then masses of wizards appearing one after the other to come and show Harry he's not alone and they'll be there with him surrounding him and Voldemort, but I couldn't get around Voldemort just disapparating.

This was soooooo much better. I've got to get a better imagination.

Fantastic editorial, this is my new favorite column (it's been so long since a new North Tower, I have to pick a new one). Anyway, I think there are two other possibilities [of Voldemort's death] nobody seems to be paying any attention to:

1. Remeber that door in the department of mysteries that wouldn't open, but melted Sirius's knife? Will that have some later signifigance? What's in there? Love? Will Harry have to channel that power?

2. In book 4, when Harry and Voldemort's wands met, Priori Incantatem happened (as we all well know). What we don't know is what would have happened if they had held the connection. It seemed to be getting stronger and a little more powerful, what would have happened if Harry held on?

A brilliantly written editorial. I think you are the best editorial columnist at mugglenet or, indeed, any other Harry Potter fansite.
On the subject of Harry's patronus possibly changing to a Phoenix. I remember reading somewhere that a person's patronus reflects their animagi form. I have always had difficulty accepting that Harry's animagi form would be a stag. I have always felt that a creature like a Phoenix would be more appropriate since Harry's greatest strength is his flying ability. Barty Crouch junior highlights this fact to Harry just before the first task In GoF (page 301 Bloomesbury Australian edition). It would be very ironic that the thing Voldemort wants more than anything else is to immortal and for his nemesis, Harry, to be able to turn into the one creature that, to all intents and purposes, is immortal.
As for the dementors, I cannot wait for someone (probably Harry) to finally be able to cast a patronus so powerful that it could destroy a dementor rather than just chase it away. Since dementors can breed surely they can also be destroyed.

Personally, I'm drawn (more humorously) to the idea of Dementors as Horcrux Nifflers. Remember how Hagrid's Nifflers went out searching for anything shiny? I think it would be great if Harry was able to use the Dementors to go out sniffing about to find Voldemort's Horcruxes -- which contained such tasty little bits of the Dementors favorite food -- human soul. But I'm having a hard time picturing Harry putting a collar and leash around a Dementor... I don't know.



Horcrux Nifflers.. what a cute thought! This one gave me a good laugh. As to putting a "leash" on a Dementor, perhaps it would be easy with a baby Dementor, now that the grown up ones are breeding? Captured young, perhaps they can be domesticated? Can they be house trained?

Actually my thoughts are leaning to the fact that Harry's scar reacts in the presence of Voldemort. Will it also react in the presence of one of his Horcruxes, as it contains a portion of his soul?

I had similar thoughts before book 6, though not as poetically expressed or well fleshed out (see my earlier posts). In my imagination, I saw Voldemort setting a wave of Dementors on Harry to finish him off, and Harry (and possibly his friends) casting a Patronus to repel the eager Dementor back on Voldemort. Intent on feeding and not to be denied, the Dementors finish Voldemort , leaving him an empty shell. As an ironic twist, I saw the fate worse than death Dumbledore mentioned expressed as Voldemort finishing his empty days in a shared ward with Professor Lockart...

Loved the editorial. In the never-ending 'Harry is a horcrux' discussion, it is unresolved as to whether or not the bit of Voldemort is soul or not. You presume, fairly, that this ending would work if all the horcruxes are found and destroyed. Even if Harry harboured the last bit of Voldemort's soul, this ending would work, as Voldemort would have no last bit of his own to animate his body.

Of course, should the second option come to pass, it would be a precarious peace. There would still be a soul fragment in a Horcrux, somewhere out there. If anyone managed to get that Horcrux and reunite the soul fragment within it with the body of Tom Riddle, would the Dark Lord rise yet again?

Perhaps Harry's fate is to remember, always, that the potential for evil still exists, somewhere, and that the right (or wrong) circumstances and actions could always reignite its power. Perhaps Harry's fate is to learn that, while it is possible to triumph over evil, and to live on to create a life we have only dreamt of, the Darkness will always attempt to put out the Light. Perhaps it will be his final task to be Dumbledore for the next Harry.

So for those who insist that Harry as a horcrux must die before he can vanquish Voldemort, even this works, with Harry as the symbol of that remembering.

hats off 2 u!!bravo

but here's a question:how will Harry get the dementors to attack Voldie?Besides I don't think Voldemort's chunck of soul,all ugly and hideous with no feelings of love mercy or compassion.They would much rather have a innocent ,untouched soul,like Harry's.Voldy's soul for them would be like, dunno ,a moldy green wrinkled old stinky nasty piece of liver from a goat that died 1000 years ago lol I mean really,that's how Voldemort's soul probably tastes to a dementor.
happy v day everybody

Lady Lupin, another wonderful editorial! :tu: :tu: :tu: You brilliantly link together many thoughts from the books. I'm not ready to say you have written the seventh book, but you delight me with every possibility.

Let me quote the Bible in support of what you say: 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
Again, thanks for another great editorial. Count me in your fan club!

Here's another thought...

In my imagination, I saw Voldemort setting a wave of Dementors on Harry to finish him off, and Harry (and possibly his friends) casting a Patronus to repel the eager Dementor back on Voldemort. Intent on feeding and not to be denied, the Dementors finish Voldemort , leaving him an empty shell. As an ironic twist, I saw the fate worse than death Dumbledore mentioned expressed as Voldemort finishing his empty days in a shared ward with Professor Lockart...Frankly, I worry about the Dementors getting Voldemort. They suck out his soul and he is not really dead. Wouldn't that make a Dementor the ultimate horcrux?!

Lady,

I got chills reading this. It seems so profoundly right. I mean the only one symbol of "light" we have seen in the books is the patronus. It would be remarkable to see other characters patroni (OoO maybe Snapes!?!?) some could argue that the phoenix is a symbol of light but it is counterd by the snake (an obvious symbol of dark and evil) Great freaking job! Even if this turns out to be naught (although you seem to be very very close to the mark) you made an awesome connection! Well done.

As others have mentioned, the idea of Love as a weapon was really sketchy to me, and other than a more intense version of Harry getting rid of Voldemort in the MoM in OotP, I had no idea how JKR was going to conceptualize this. This editorial is so close to what would be a wonderful, brilliant idea, I hope Jo doesn't read it so she changes up the ending!

We have been told very little about Dementors from JKR - as far as the concept of this editorial goes. But I looked up on the hp-lexicon to see what I may have missed, and I came across this quote, attributed to something Lupin says in PoA, and something struck me: "...If it can, the dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself...soul-less and evil. You will be left with nothing but the worst experiences of your life." Isn't this kind of what Voldemort is already? That doesn't mean to me that dementor can't destory him, but it makes me wonder if he has control over them because of this, or why he's able to control them when even someone as powerful as Dumbledore hasn't the ability. Maybe this is one of those famous foreshadows, in that we know a horcrux protects part of a soul, and Dementors leave you soul-less. This editorial has blown me away....

Lady Lupin,
Congratulations on another fantastic editorial… :love: I always look forward to reading about your perspective on all things Harry Potter. It would make sense that dementors, which have been around since Prisoner of Azkaban, would play an important part as a power to be harnessed during the final confrontation or, as jmas1357 put it, horcrux nifflers.

Just a question to everybody, is it ever really stated that Snape is not able to conjure a Patronus? I would think that as an Order member he must be able to… it would be a little ironic if he called Tonk’s patronus weak when he himself cannot perform the Patronus Charm, something Harry managed to do in his third year. :lol: Furthermore, I think J.K. said she would be giving too much away if she told us what Snape’s boggart or patronus is. I think that would imply that he has one.
Again, excellent editorial.
:rave:MemoryCharm

Memory Charm: I am certain that Snape can conjure a Patronus. He's in the Order (or he was!) and they all use them. What some people are discussing is that Harry believed he would get bad marks on an essay because Snape disagreed about the best way to handle a Dementor. That would imply that there is ANOTHER way to handle a Dementor, though we haven't been told what that is. One reader suggested Occlumency - since the Dementors feed on thoughts and feelings, if one could block those, could one avoid the Dementors? Sirius avoided them by transforming into a dog. It's an excellent question, and could have an effect on the outcome. Voldemort can certainly do Occlumency. Perhaps he controls them this way. Could that fail him? Or, could the emotions in a final confrontation be riding so high that they can't be completely hidden? It's all good for speculation!

Great editorial! I always look forward to reading your ideas.
On a side note, I think Snape would be able to conjure a patronus he can after all love (he loveed Lily and Jo mentioned something about Snape being able to love and still be a 'bad guy' making him more dangerous that Voldy if he were to carry out with the darkside). That and he's in the Order, they must all be able to conjure a patronus.

I suppose it's possible that dementors could defeat Voldy, but not likely. In the first place, that doesn't count as Harry defeating him. In the second place, I believe the dementors are under Voldemort's control.

What would happen, though, if Harry attacked Voldemort with a patronus?

Also, I thought the saying went that the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. And I prefer vole of death instead of voler de mort. Rodent of death! Rodent of death!

Question: could Voldemort conjure a Patronus, given his angry, embittered state?

Another thought, LadyLupin: Would Voldemort even need to conjure a Patronus? If Mad-Eye can kill a spider with the Avada Kedavra curse, why couldn't Voldemort kill a non-human, a Dementor even, with the curse? We can understand why normal wizards wouldn't want to use an Unforgivable Curse (that one-way ticket to Azkaban is no prize), but why wouldn't Voldemort just Avada Kedavra the Dementors?

"Kill the spare" was all he said when Cedric showed up with Harry at the graveyard. Totally unconcerned about the morality of killing. Wht not kill any and all Dementors that turned up as well?
Well, wouldn't Dementors need to be alive for that. I really don't see them have a soul of their own, so I don't think Dementors can be considered alive or killed through "regular" means as AK curses.

Horcrux Nifflers.. what a cute thought! This one gave me a good laugh. As to putting a "leash" on a Dementor, perhaps it would be easy with a baby Dementor, now that the grown up ones are breeding? Captured young, perhaps they can be domesticated? Can they be house trained?

Actually my thoughts are leaning to the fact that Harry's scar reacts in the presence of Voldemort. Will it also react in the presence of one of his Horcruxes, as it contains a portion of his soul?

We still need a way to destroy those horcruxes and having a dementor suck it out (and damage the object in the process) seems like a possible option.

Also, Harry and Voldemort's wands may not battle each other, perhaps they could do battle without a wand? Non-verbal?

As a million posters have already stated, brilliant editorial. I find your thoughts on the subject to be really plausible; very valid.

This is one of the best editorials I have read, fantastic!

Well done again Lady Lupin!
I've often wondered what Voldie's boggart would be and if he could ever overcome it. Would it be Harry vanquishing him or the sight of his own death and funeral or what? It's good in away that Harry fears Dementors more than Voldie (as we can see by Harry's boggart) and Lupin is right in pointing out to Harry that he only 'fears fear itself'. Now if he can overcome his fear of fear he will have less chance of doing something silly and thus costing his life and will give himself more chance of surviving his next encounter with Voldie. Perhaps the answer is to bring along a boggart to help defeat Voldie in case the Dementors strategy doesn't work out.
Maybe, as others have stated before, he might have to somehow trick Voldie into falling through the Veil to get rid of him once and for all. Once on the 'other' side all those he has wronged could wreak their revenge on hm and make his 'afterlife' thoroughly miserable which is no more than he deserves.
Another thought - Harry will need to hone up on his occlumency skills so Voldie can't pre-empt any of Harry's defensive and offensive actions, plus his legilmency skills so he can pre-empt Voldie's offensive and defensive actions and therefore defeat him and survive.

Wow!:wow:
I don't read many editorials but this has to be the most insightful and thought-provoking I've read! I love the way Lady Lupin draws evidence from the whole HP series. I almost feel that the ending has been spoiled for me because it fits so perfectly, whether that is the ending or not, I'm sure JKR would be very impressed - I know I am! Well done and I look forward to reading more... :clap:

Just wanted to add another comment re: the use of Occlumency against the Dementors, and this being Snape's prefered method. It has always intrigued me how Dumbledore and Fudge communicate with the Dementors. In PoA, Dumbledore says that he must go down and speak to the Dementors after searching the castle when Sirius broke in. Fudge had to make arrangements for them to both run Azkaban and offer protection around Hogwarts. Anyway, the use of Occlumency as a guard during communications would makes a lot of sense.

Kudos to the email friend who reminded us all of Snape's Dementor essay and Harry's throwaway comment!

I, myself, am a big fan of Lady Lupin's Editorials, I just have a few things to point out, wrong or not...

1. Dementors feed on happy memories, leaving us with only our worst fears and memories, and Voldemort can't have too many happy memories, and seems to deal with the bad ones alright, so maybe the evil don't necessary have control over the dememtors, they have just resigned themselves to evil so much, the dementors have no effect, or little effect on them.

2. Snape can conjure a patronus, which leads me to believe that he can't possibly be completely evil, but it is true that "We slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid, for instance, given the chance, we will always save our own skin" (Phineas Nigellus, OOTP). I believe this is one of the most important quotes in the books.

3. This may be somewhat far-fetched, but I believe that whatever spell Dumbledore was trying to cast on Voldemort in the MOM was the one that Harry will need to use to defeat Voldemort. Voldemort is no longer human, he is so immersed in evil, I believe that he is something of a "Human Horcrux", and the spell that Dumbledore used on the ring may work on Voldemort Himself. I think finding out what that spell was is the key to destroying Voldy.

4. To somewhat contradict myself, how does one destroy a Horcrux? I'm not sure that there can be an "Anti-Horcrux spell", and if there is, it's probably not as simple as pointing your wand and saying "Lumos". Besides, I don't think Jo would have the whole series come down to some difficult incantation that Harry isn't going to have time for anyway. I mean, he destroyed the diary with a basilisk tooth....that isn't exactly "magical".

I have somewhat deviated from the point I was trying to make, so i'll reinterate, I don't think the Dementors will have much of an effect on Voldemort, because they feed on happy memories, leaving you with nothing but your worst recollections. Not to be confused with boggarts. Voldemort to the dementors, I believe, is like us looking at a chicken bone. No meat, no food. Harry, on the other hand, is like thanksgiving dinner. And a side point, If Snape can conjure a Patronus, either old Severus isn't as evil as I think he is, (but he will get his, one way or another, but that's another article), or you have to simply think of SOMETHING happy, not necessarily a happy memory. It wouldn't be too hard for Voldemort to picture himself ruling the world, i'm sure that would be one wicked patronus, especially with his power. In any event, a spell will not destroy Voldemort, and neither will the dementors. I think the most profitable line of questioning would be the Department of Mysteries, and the Locked door, but I've got Organic Chemistry in a few minutes, so I'd love to hear some feedback, good or bad!!
----Nelson

**Voldemort's boggart would be himself, dead. Death is the thing that he fears the most.**

Dear Lady Lupin... you've done it again.

It was brilliant!

I'm speachless... the picture of the dementors, Voldemort an the DA makes so much sense...

From now on, I'm your devoted fan.

Excellent editorial!

The final battle you described makes so much sense!!! There has been the debate over if Harry "kills" Voldemort, will Harry's soul remain intact, but with the senario you proposed, that debate is not neccessary. Harry vanquishes Voldemort indirectly, which I think is great. It's been proven many times in the books that Harry does not have as much Magical power/skill as Voldemort. The Patronus charms allows Harry to use that which he has in abundance. Plus it was a difficult charm when he first learned it, which, by the time he's seventeen/eighteen, he will have a lot of experience with the charm.

And I like you emphasized that Harry wouldn't be fighting Voldemort alone. So many theories put Harry alone at the battle. That his friends are focusing on the DEs, making Harry face Voldemort all by himself.

I don't think that Harry being "the one" means he's the Only One. I believe that Harry is the One that can unite the side of light and lead them, and TOGETHER they defeat Voldemort.

This senario you presented is just so perfect. I would be really happy if this or something like this will happen in book 7.

And there have been minor clues, as you mentioned. It has been said since PoA that the dementor's kiss leaves someone worse than dead, and Dumbledore told Voldemort directly that there are things worse than death. With the wording so similar, I have to wonder if it is forshadowing Voldemort's demise. It would be such an appropriate punishment for Voldemort's crimes, for him to exist, but have no knowledge of that existance. I think another appropriate punishment is to strip him of his power and leave him as a squib, but alive. He would never have the magic to become anything more than the common muggle.

All in all, great editorial and I can really see it happening!!

Dearest Lady Lupin,

Once Again You Stop Me Dead In My Tracks.

Amazing Editorial, My Eyes Almost Started To Well Up With The Thought Of A Giant Phoenix Patronus Protecting Everyone But Voldemort, I Could See The Entire Thing Developing In My Mind's Eye. Being "the One" Maybe Harry Protects Not Only A Few Friends But The Entire School, The Entire Country Or Even The Entire World With His Love.

While I Agree That This Ending Would Seem To Leave Some Loose Ends, If This Was How Jkr Ended The Series, I'd Feel Extremely Satisfied. The Use Of The Patronus As Protection Rather Than Some Of The Other "love As A Weapon" Guesses Out There Almost Makes Too Much Sense To Not Be Accurate.

I Feel That Wormtail And Snape Will Have Bigger Role In Voldemort's Final Hour And I'd Be Surprised Personally If Harry Survives The Seventh Book, All Of That Aside Your Article / Prediction Is Better Than Anything I've Read About The End Of The Series.

Lady Lupin, Your Writing Style And The Quality Of Your Work Is Second To None On This Site, And The Paragraph You Devoted To Lupin And Tying Him To The Patronus Brought A Big Smile To My Face.

I Am A Member Of Your Growing Fan Base And Have Made A Point Of Reading Everything You've Written For Some Time.

Thank You For This Piece And The Others You've Written

Great Editorial Lady Lupin, as always. One thing I was thinking about: would a dementor be able to suck the soul out of a Horcrux? If Harry doesn't possess enough magical powers to "de-Horcrux" the other objects, could a dementor do it for him?

You bring up so many good ideas, even more questions arise!

Magnificent!!! A few random comments related to a few of the points brought up:

1. It makes no sense that Snape could not cast a Patronus (but I think that claim was put to bed above).

2. In Chapter 5 of POA Harry and Ginny are strongly impacted by the Dementors, more so then anyone else in the compartment. These two are the only living souls we are aware of who have been possesed by Voldemort and remain alive. In other scenes throughout the septology it is demonstrated that the Dementors are especially attracted to Harry and he is extra sensitive to them. JKR emphasizes this over and over again.

3. Regarding that "fate worse than death", I keep coming back to the bell jar in OOtP. Perhaps LV's essence could be contained and for all eternity he'd be caught in an endless loop. So instead of an empty shell remaining after a Dementor's kiss, an aware soul trapped in an endless contained cycle of birth and death. True eternal damnation.

Stick with it....you are channeling JKR well.

Two things:

1. MacGyverMagic - Well, wouldn't Dementors need to be alive for that. I really don't see them have a soul of their own, so I don't think Dementors can be considered alive or killed through "regular" means as Avada Kedavra curses.


Actually, Dementors seem to be living creatures. They have hunger and they eat. They have had conversations with Dumbledore and Fudge in previous books. They respond to being shooed away from the Quidditch pitch by Dumbeldore in Prisoner of Azkaban. They breed and make new life. And they must die or we'd be knee-deep in them by now. The Dementors aren't an example of exemplary life forms, no, but I do think they fit the qualifications of being living beings that could die. Even a plant is a living thing that can be killed.

2. On a different note, I am taken by the number of reader comments in this thread that express relief that LadyLupin has seen such a positive ending to the book and hope that JKR writes something very similar. While this is an excellent ending for the six books we have seen so far, extraordinarily well-reasoned and written, careful to protect Harry and his friends, I'm not sure that it will mirror the ending JKR will choose. I suspect JKR's ending will be a bit more painful for us all.

When Malfoy kicked the immobilized Harry in the face on the floor of the Hogwarts Express at the start of Half-Blood Prince and broke his nose, I feared we would be seeing some very uncomfortable things in future scenes.

The wizard world is at war now. People are dying in horrible ways. Love will certainly play a very important role in the ending of the saga, but I'm afraid we might be witness to not only the ascendency of love but the pain it causes those who love and lose someone.

Sirius died, in large part, because Dumbledore's love for Harry stopped him from sharing important information with Harry that eventually caused Sirius's death. Love is powerful, but love is not always happy. There is goodness-and-light and there is evil-and-darkness, yes, but love lives in both camps. Love is not a silver bullet. It is a very complicated powerful force. Sometimes it butts right up against reason and logic and those who have love sometimes do very foolish things. Even Dumbledore, whose mistakes are not those of reason and logic, but of love...

When Malfoy kicked the immobilized Harry in the face on the floor of the Hogwarts Express at the start of Half-Blood Prince and broke his nose, I feared we would be seeing some very uncomfortable things in future scenes.


I thought this as well and by the end of HBP I hoped that we had seen the last of really, really terrible violence. But you are correct --- we'll likely see more. Recall Harry's sarcastic quote along the lines of: Wow, I wonder what is is like to have a difficult life?

You sort of wish that Harry would get a break --- which is why I loved the "After Burial" chapter as it was so nice to see everything go his way via luck. But I recently read an essay with a really dark take on that same chapter which makes me wonder. The point was that the chapter wasn't about luck at all, but rather Harry's ability to channel Tom's persuading skills without any moral responsibility being attached to it.

I haven't read any of the other posts, but I just wanted to say that this is the BEST and most viable ending that I have seen theorized for the end of the series.

It makes sense, its not corny or predictable or just a little too coincidental, it's perfect!!

I especially loved the fact that Tom Riddle would indeed live forever, yet as a Dementor's Kiss victim. I even love the possibility of their being a horcrux still out there.

Awesome editorial - the best I have ever read!!!

I must say Lady Lupin, I trully do love your work. It really makes me think, i have read every article you've written, but I've not commented any of them O_o

Great editorial. I must say though, it did make me think, I just hope Voldemort doesn't get demented, that would be a disappointing way for his defeat. It's kind of like the Al Capone, biggest mobster in history, getting arrested for tax fraud and dying of syphillis rather than getting arrested for murder and fighting to the death, you know? Vlodemort is the darkest of Dark wizards and if he "dies" because a stupid dementor I'll be extremely angered...har har.

First, the plural of "patronus" is "patroni" if you follow the Latin, but if it's been referred to as "patronuses" in the books that is of course the correct term.

Second, I'm not entirely sure Voldemort cannot die. I think all we know is that he cannot be killed. There is a difference. Still, I think you provide some logical thoughts on the end of the series.

Lady Lupin - more kudos for an excellent editorial! It was well thought-out, supported by the books, articulate, and sensible, not sentimental. Thank you for sharing it! :) I really appreciate the idea of the Patronus charm, as a powerful bit of Light magic drawn from love, figuring in the final battle in some way - I quite like that idea! And the connections between the Dementors, souls, fates worse than death and the Patronus could certainly point to a reappearance of our grim friends, though I am not sure what. It may be poetic justice for Voldemort to get his precious soul sucked out and suffer that fate worse than death, but what would motivate a Dementor to do that? Many people have wondered about the Dementors destroying the other Horcruxes as well, but it seems to me that again they would have little reason to do so. They sucked out souls at the direction of the MoM, but they serve Voldemort now - I'm not sure how Harry could get them to cooperate and destroy the guy who gives them free reign to feed now that they are out of Azkaban. So what about the Veil? It seems to have something to do with death and the afterlife, so if the Horcruxes have a bit of soul in them, chuck them through the Veil into the afterlife and be done with them. Quick and easy:lol:
Of course, I don't think it will be that quick and easy - surely Dumbledore would have thought of that! But we do need to revisit the MoM, the Veil, and perhaps even that locked room, so its an idea, if a very lame one.
This editorial and the great discussion opens up many new ways of thinking about book seven - I love it! Thanks again!
~Gina :)

its a really amazing idea, the demise of you Know Who by dementors. i never thought of Dumby's words lyk that. It was a brilliant idea, and i wonder... hmmm... dunno wats gonna happen :nc: but this was a good idea.

For the record... I do not expect that the conclusion of book 7 will be exactly as my dearesr Lady Lupin proposed it.
I just think that it makes so much sense.

So dementors breed - I'd like to see them in action - which ones are male and which ones are female - who looks after the young ones? Perhaps they are sexless and the young look after themsleves right from birth. If this is the case perhaps Harry could get to the young dementors before Voldie and get them on his side and then get a boggart and a few dementors and go on the attack. While Voldie is confronted by his worst nightmare courtesy of the boggart the dementors could move in and finish him off providing they aren't affected by boggarts. What would the dementors boggart turn into? A happy world which would be unaffected by them or a miserable world with no happiness left for them to feed on. If the dementors would side with Harry he might need to getsome boggarts to distract them so he can do battle with Voldie without the dementors getting in the way. I bet dementors couldn't conjure up a patronus up but if they could what would it be I wonder?

My question is-why would JKR mention a room in the DOM that contains love, but never use that room again? If things happen the way this article states, then there was no point in mentioning that room. I think it will play a part, though how, I don't know.

I guessed long ago that the Patronus would be essential for overthrowing Voldemort. But I always thought the Patornus would effect Voldemort like it would a dementor. however I like the concept of Voldemort being a victim of his own success: immortality. It would be irony to the core if the dementor would grant him immortality.
I really do hope that the final duel will be in Azkaban Fortress. It would shock me if Voldemort wouldn't take over Azkaban because he would have so much to gain if he went there. 1. He could rally at least 50 more Death Eaters to his side by forcing them into his service. 2. Would provide an immpenitrable fortress. 3. Could wipe out all the Aurors working there cutting resistance by at least a 1/4. 4. Also kill those loyal to the Order and kill Lucius.

Lady Lupin, checking in! Am enjoying checking into this discussion periodically. And I wholeheartedly agree with those of you who point out different things that will play a part, such as the Veil and the Locked Room. I agree. And the question of whether the Dementors could make a meal off of Voldemort! (I loved the chicken bone comment!) I just haven't thought of how these other things might play out! So I think it's safe to say that, even if I'm approaching something resembling part of the ending, there is much that I have missed. It's just such fun to speculate! Thanks for all the comments. I'll start working on another piece soon, I promise.

Best,

LL

Part of me wishes I didn't read this because it believe this may be a spoiler! (Or a partial one!) I thank you for getting my thoughts flowing - even with jealousy!!!

Excellent editorial...

It may have been said, but I don't think I've seen it in this discussion, but the reason the Dementors are so attracted to Harry may not just be because of the fact that he has experienced alot, but may in my opinion also tie in with Harry's scar being a Horcrux. If the scar is indeed a horcrux, that would mean that Harry has more soul than probably any other human a dementor has ever met.

This would of course be hard to tie in with the veil, the unknown spell dumbledore used, the gleam of triumph in addition to your ending, which by the way, is completely plausible.

That was so good! Wow, how do you people think up stuff like that?! Anyway, here's my two cents:

While it is certainly plausible, and more likely than anything else I've heard in the editorials, I don't really think that the show down is going to come down to patronuses and dementors. That's rather like letting someone else fight your battle. Harry is going to be the one to kill/destroy Voldemort, however, I don't think he's even going to use magic.

I've said throughout this whole series that magic is the backdrop to the humanity of the story, it makes for fun detours and awesome adventures, but magic is not what the story is about. We'd be just as fascinated, just as torn up, and just as anxious to see what happens if all of this were taking place in a normal world. Because it's the ultimate good vs. evil theme that draws us in. We know, beyond doubt, that good is going to win. We just don't know how. I think that magic, as useful and powerful as it is, is going to be pointless.

Think about it, if Tom Riddle hadn't been born a wizard, he would have led a resentful bitter life, perhaps killing some people, getting caught, and sent to prison. He would be a normal person, living, breathing, dying, just like the rest of us. It's the one thing he doesn't want to be. Normal. Even more than he fears death, I feel that Riddle fears normalicy. Take away his magic, and he is just normal.

I have no idea how that could play out in the books, but I think it will have something to do with the final showdown.

~Lili

I've said throughout this whole series that magic is the backdrop to the humanity of the story, it makes for fun detours and awesome adventures, but magic is not what the story is about. We'd be just as fascinated, just as torn up, and just as anxious to see what happens if all of this were taking place in a normal world. Because it's the ultimate good vs. evil theme that draws us in. We know, beyond doubt, that good is going to win. We just don't know how. I think that magic, as useful and powerful as it is, is going to be pointless.This is so true, I completely agree.

:clap: *Claps for you admirably* Frankly, I've been pretty bored with reading theories about Harry Potter, but this one has gotten me back into it. This is a great theory, and I really enjoy it. It seems like something J.K. Rowling would put in a book (however I don't expect it will be the ending, she's going to come up with something completely different than anything we'd ever expect).

As far as Voldemort not having happy thoughts, I think you're right. Yeah, thinking Harry dead might be kind-of cheerful for Voldemort, but that's not raelly a happy thought like being with friends, first love, family, etc. etc.

So maybe the dementors will turn on Voldemort and kill his slimy butt.

Another great editorial, Lady Lupin! You presented a very plausible ending. Good for Voldy to get the dementors' kiss, very appropriate. I never liked the idea of Harry killing anyone, even Voldy, so I especially liked this possible way of vanquishing him. Are the dementors really breeding?(Never mind how--eww) I don't remember that mentioned anywhere. And Harry's vision of Umbridge being sacked was one of Hogwarts being rid of the evil which had plagued it, so it was sort of noble, after all.

Are the dementors really breeding?(Never mind how--eww) I don't remember that mentioned anywhere.

I can't remember exactly where, but someone mentioned that all the unusual mist that was around the country was from the Dementors breeding...

~Lili

Lady Lupin, you have truly out-done yourself this time. When I see a new editorial posted on Mugglenet, I always hope it will be authored by you! You have this uncanny ability to draw scattered details from the books/stories and then piece them together to create a logical and straightforward scenario that the rest of us have missed. This editorial is no exception!

I can't even think of a good idea to contribute here, but I just wanted to congratulate you on a job well done!

Awesome theory!!:tu:

What an incredible editorial! I 've been doing some thinking about possible endings, too, and the Patronus didn't occur to me, but it's something that wouldn't occur to Voldemort and that Harry's has displayed a strong gift for. My ideas are a lot less flashy, but I'd like to share them anyway. Steve Kloves, the gentleman who has adapted the screenplays from the books, said in an interview (I think it was on the PoA DVD) that Jo Rowling has been very helpful in leading him through what to keep and what to edit from the books even to the point of entrusting him with information on future direction in the books. So, we know that the films have not been allowed to stray too far from the direction of the books. Plus, Rowling has, through the use of various characters, especially Dumbledore, repeated many times in each book how important it will be for Harry to keep his friends close. I agree with other posters that the battle with Voldemort will take place not only after the horcruxes are found and destroyed, but after Voldemort’s followers are also destroyed or subdued. Here is where the importance of Harry’s friends will be especially pronounced. It may be perhaps a little hopeful vengeance on my part, but I would like to see Neville defeat Bellatrix. It may not be through incredible magic, it may only be a stroke of luck and perhaps a moment of distraction provided by another character. Also, Rowling said in the POA DVD interview along with Alfonso Cuoron that there were moments in the film that were not in the books. She was surprised to see that these moments introduced, unknowingly, things that were coming up in future books. I think one of these was the punch that Hermione threw at Draco. It’s obvious that Draco will have to be dealt with in Book 7. Throughout the series, both books and films, the animosity between Draco and Hermione has grown. Draco “hopes it’s that Granger” who is the next mudblood killed in CoS, Draco vows to “get that jumped up mudblood” in the film PoA, Hermione guides Harry away from Draco’s taunts several times and is also one of Harry’s friends who intervenes between Draco’s father and Harry in the bookshop. Draco will want to find a way to redeem himself in Book 7 and attacking Hermione (foolishly, I must add) may be the way to his downfall. As each of Voldemort’s supporters is dealt with by Harry's friends, Harry will be discovering and destroying Horcruxes, thus weakening Voldemort further and further. I think that by the time Harry actually confronts him, Voldemort will possess only the fraction of the soul that actually resides in him and he will be far weaker than he may realize. The prophecy said that neither Voldemort nor Harry can both survive. In GoF, Harry and Voldemort discovered that they also had difficulty using their wands against each other. In Books 5 and 6 Harry proved incapable of performing an Unforgivable Curse. (Personally, I’m glad he wasn’t able to because that ability would make him no better that Voldemort and his Death Eaters who seem to throw Unforgivable Curses around easily.) Also, what to do about the Snape factor? I personally think he’s the most reprehensible human being in the entire story. Voldemort is horrible, but makes no effort to cloak it. The Dursleys are comically horrible. Umbridge was also horrible, but was shown to be a misguided, zealous fanatic. Snape is a wild card, true, but he was probably the character who was at Godric Hollow the night Lily and James were killed and it was probably because he wanted to save Lily. I’m guessing he will be present when Harry finally goes for Voldemort. So here’s where my theory on how Harry can do away with Voldemort gets “pretty far out there.” If Snape is present when Harry confronts Voldemort, he could distract the weakened Voldemort. Harry could use his wand to cast the “accio soul” spell towards Voldemort, throw the last piece of Voldemort’s soul into another creature (Nagini?) and then destroy Nagini or whatever creature he throws the piece of soul into. That way, Harry is destroying Voldemort without using his wand directly against him. Now, when anyone reading this stops laughing and gets up from the floor, could you tell me your thoughts? 

So here’s where my theory on how Harry can do away with Voldemort gets “pretty far out there.” If Snape is present when Harry confronts Voldemort, he could distract the weakened Voldemort. Harry could use his wand to cast the “accio soul” spell towards Voldemort, throw the last piece of Voldemort’s soul into another creature (Nagini?) and then destroy Nagini or whatever creature he throws the piece of soul into. That way, Harry is destroying Voldemort without using his wand directly against him. Now, when anyone reading this stops laughing and gets up from the floor, could you tell me your thoughts? ?

I don't think it will be as easy as "accio soul" (I doubt that's even possible) but there could be a spell that would do something similar; a lot of people wonder about the spells Dumbledore used at the Ministry. However, it would probably be a dark magic spell; removing a soul sounds far worse than the Unforivables to me. Dumbledore knows Dark Magic, he chooses not to use it (SS). Harry, however, was not able to carry off an Unforgivable Curse; and where would he learn such a spell anyway? it is also assumed that Harry will destroy Voldemort with the power of love, not hate.
I do agree that its very possible Snape was present in Godric's Hollow when the Potters were killed. This idea hit me very suddenly when I was doing some writing of my own a while back. And I do think that its possible - even probable, in my mind - that Snape will be there for this final showdown and have a vital part to play. I think its interesting that JKR hasn't told us what Snape's boggart or Patronus are - I wonder why she is keeping that secret? Perhaps it plays a role in the final book, which may mean Lady Lupin's great theories are close to the mark!
~Gina :)

Another brilliant editorial from Lady Lupin. I like this theoretical ending: it's plausible and satisfying. It's true that it doesn't tie all the loose ends together. There are so many loose ends, nobody but Jo will be able to tie them all together! But if it's not bang-on (and we hope it's not because that would be a spoiler) it may still guess at parts of the ending.

I don't think I've been exposed before to the idea that Fear is the opposite of Love, but I like it. Indeed, fear of being hurt can keep a person away from love. Once in the house of a Danish person, I saw a little framed drawing of a nude woman walking in a field, with a Danish caption underneath. I asked the hostess what it meant, and she translated it as: "Live while you can; love while you dare." I always remembered that.

Interesting that you interpret the patronus as a holy spirit. I see it as less of a Christian manifestation and more of a pagan manifestation. It makes me think of the animal spirit guides of native Americans (though I'm no expert on the subject... any natives on this forum?) You don't get a lot of animal images in Christianity, except for the fish and I'm almost certain that predates Christianity.

Lady Lupin, do you ever write fiction? You certainly have the imagination.

LadyLupin, did you have to put the idea of baby Dementors in my head? :D :lol:

What a brilliant idea for an ending. It would be so ironic if the Death Eaters/Voldemort were finished by the evil they unleashed on humanity - without checking the birth rates (something the Ministry probably did). It would also prove that whatever they use to control the Dementors (something Dark no doubt) won't be as effective as the magic of love.

BTW: About Voldemort protecting his black soul-piece with Occlumency. If he did, the scar connection could come into play. Harry doesn't try to enter Voldemort's mind at the moment, but he might still be able to do it if he tried very hard. Maybe he has to shatter Voldemort's Occlumency shields in another battle of wills...


In HBP, Harry actually tells us that Snape can not conjure a patronus....He is thinking of how he will not do well on a DADA essay because he disagrees with Snape as how best to deal with dementors...It is one JKR's throwaway lines that could mean something much larger in regards to the story.
It didn't explicitly say that Snape couldn't cast a Patronus, but I also got the feeling that there might be more to Snape's teaching an alternative way. Harry would have been very interested in a way to kill Dementors, so that can't be Snape's method. And he probably also would have been interested in another method that was as effective as the Patronus. Harry isn't the most brilliant student, and he's not very objective when Snape is concerned, but he knows his DADA and I don't think he'd object to learn something useful in that subject, even if it came from Snape. Imo, that's a big hint that Snape (and the other Death Eaters) really might not be able to cast a Patronus. And that his way wasn't as good as he made out.

I don't quite believe that Snape recommended Occlumency in class. That's not taught at Hogwarts, and for the ordinary student, it's probably as difficult or more difficult than conjuring Patronuses (a couple of people in the DA did it during their first lesson!) Plus, most of the Death Eaters are good at Occlumency (Bellatrix Lestrange e.g.), so why didn't they escape from Azkaban earlier? Occlumency probably helps with the effects of a Dementor, but it can't be enough to really ward them off or control them.

it would be a little ironic if he called Tonk’s patronus weak when he himself cannot perform the Patronus Charm, something Harry managed to do in his third year.
Definitely. That's why I like the idea.:lol:
Furthermore, I think J.K. said she would be giving too much away if she told us what Snape’s boggart or patronus is. I think that would imply that he has one.

She would have given a lot away if she'd said that he can't conjure one. She was asked what form Snape's boggart and Patronus were.

There's of course the problem that Snape did communicate with the Order in OotP, informing them that Harry & Co. went to the Ministry. But it didn't say how he did it on that occasion, either. He could have apparated to Grimmauld Place after searching the forest. It sounded like he had a discussion with Sirius, telling him to stay behind. A Patronus can only send one message at a time.

Somebody suggested a while ago on another thread that the description of Snape's face as 'demented' in HBP (Flight of the Prince) - the only other instance of this word in HP is the chapter title "Dudley Demented" in OotP - together with a possible interpretation of the Sphinx Riddle in GoF pointed towards the Dementor's Kiss as Snape's final fate. I found this very convincing, that's why I wouldn't discount the possibility that Snape hasn't got a Patronus.

Okay, or maybe he's got a Patronus but it's very feeble and no good at all when he's really confronted with Dementors...

I'd just like to say how happy I am that Lady Lupin has a column! Although I read and enjoy everyone's editorials, yours were the ones I waited for. You are so insightfull, making points that I (and probably many others) would never have thought of. So I want to say congrats for getting your own column, and thank you for giving us lots to think about! Looking forward to your future works.

Great editorial, but you know that.

I could see your ending happening, but for a few issues I'll mention below. More than anything, however, I believe that Harry's power to love will prove out in contrast to Voldemort's power to intimidate, in the form of his leadership, and the lengths that he's proven himself willing to go to in order to protect those he loves.

In all the DA meetings, we only witness two lessons: Expelliarmus, which Harry has already used to escape Volemort once, and Expecto Patronum, which nobody in the DA aside from Harry has ever had to use in context. I picture the scenario arising wherein that lesson becomes pretty handy, by virtue of Harry's love drawing people to his side. Actually, by the end, I think this will involve both Snape - I'm an interminable Snape sympathizer - and Draco, who Snape is protecting, and who would surely see Volemort destroyed inmorder to save himself and his family. The dominoes of Death Eaters will fall in suit, save for the few who are so deep, or so deluded, that they have nothing else to do other than have their final confrontations.

Bellatrix will face Neville, stronger than we've ever seen him; Lupin will face Wormtail, with his ominously silver hand, but who else will stand beside the Dark Lord when Harry, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Fred, George, Neville, Luna, Sanpe, Draco, Lucius, Narcissa, the surviving members of the Order and anyone else brave enough or desperate enough all line up on the same side this time? I can predict that far, but predicting specific circumstances past that gets tricky, and this ending leaves at least to question unanswered.

1. Could the prophecy see perfectly enough to imagine one hightened set of consequences where love could be used, indirectly, to oversome Voldemort? Or was the power of love enough so that Voldemort's defeat would be inevitable, whether he could see it or not?

2. After the dementors take out Voldemort, who is commanding them, they become a leaderless army of the "foulest creatures on earth." What to be done then? Sure, the Order and the DA know how to cast Patroni, but not every wizard, and certainly no muggles.

All told, though, I like the theory, and I'm crazy about you having your own serial. Good work, as always.

Lady Lupin, I am very very pleased that you have been given your own column. I have always liked your editorials and this one is no exception. This theory seems quite pheasable to me. The idea of love being used as a weapon was a concept that I found it hard to wrap my head around, but this does crystallize that concept for me. I remember Jo saying somewhere that it was important that Lily's wand was good for charm work. I wondered why that should be, until this editorial. It seems logical that when Harry returns to Godric's Hollow that he would find Lily's wand and keep it for use against Voldemort since Harry knows his wand is ineffective in that capacity. If Lily's wand is so good for charms, what would be the most powerful one we could think of - the patronus charm.
This editorial also got me thinking more about the dementors. Firstly, as I read in an earlier post, as a "horcrux niffler", then as one of the ways by which an object can be rendered "no longer a horcrux". I remember Dumbledore using those words in book six. This stuck out for me as if the object need not be destroyed to render it a horcrux no longer. It seems logical that if a dementor can suck the soul out of a person, why not out of a horcrux? I don't think that it would be a terribly satisfying meal, but if, as you said, the dementors are breeding, you are correct in stating that the young of any species is always hungry (I can vouch for that as a mother of two young boys). Perhaps if you are a hungry enough dementor you will eat anything during your feeding frenzy. Even a fragment of a soul, or a soul as damaged as that of Lord Voldemort. Dumbledore has stated that Voldemort doesn't understand that there are worse things than death. Living as an empty, soul-less shell until your body simply dies of old age, especially with the life expectancy of a wizard, seems like a fate worse than death to me.

I Loved this editorial. i thought it was well thought out and quite entertaining especially for the size of it. I love the idea that a dementor could be the demise of Voldemort. I also think this could make the book very dramatic because Harry would not need to destroy all the horcruxes. All that would need to happen is that the piece that stays bound to earth when the body dies is destroyed. I never even thought about the dementors before for the end of voldemort but i love the idea. there are just so many possibilities such as the veil. I cant wait to see how it turns out.

I've long nurtured a belief that the Dementors would have something to do with Voldemort's end, since they eat souls and getting rid of Voldemort's soul (or pieces thereof) is what the quest is all about. This editorial has got me thinking again.

Some others have speculated that Harry's scar is a Horcrux, i.e. a piece of Voldemort's soul. As such, could it be eaten by a Dementor? What if this Horcrux was created by accident, as the AK rebounded when Voldemort was tryng to kill Harry? Then Voldemort wouldn't even know it exists. Imagine Harry, after eiminating the other Horcruxes, confronting Voldemort and failing... Voldemort traps Harry and tries feeding him to a Dementor, which sucks out a soul and leaves Harry for dead... ...and Harry can awake, take both Dementors and Voldemort with surprise with a Patronus, and the Dementors taking their revenge on Voldemort. Final curtain, and Harry has to get used to living without his scar.

Nice editorial, Lady Lupin (as ever). I have particularily liked the idea of the giant phoenix Patronus.
I would rather have thought about several patronuses including a phoenix and all of them attacking Voldemort who is not much more than a Dementor by now, but your scenario is much more spectacular!

I've long nurtured a belief that the Dementors would have something to do with Voldemort's end, since they eat souls and getting rid of Voldemort's soul (or pieces thereof) is what the quest is all about. This editorial has got me thinking again.

Some others have speculated that Harry's scar is a Horcrux, i.e. a piece of Voldemort's soul. As such, could it be eaten by a Dementor? What if this Horcrux was created by accident, as the AK rebounded when Voldemort was tryng to kill Harry? Then Voldemort wouldn't even know it exists. Imagine Harry, after eiminating the other Horcruxes, confronting Voldemort and failing... Voldemort traps Harry and tries feeding him to a Dementor, which sucks out a soul and leaves Harry for dead... ...and Harry can awake, take both Dementors and Voldemort with surprise with a Patronus, and the Dementors taking their revenge on Voldemort. Final curtain, and Harry has to get used to living without his scar.

Well, it's not exactly the rignt tread to talk about that, but there's the problem of the horcrux spell. Could Voldemort have cast that spell uncounciously and unverbally right before he lost his body ? Not very believable. If you want Harry have a piece of Voldemrot's soul in his scar, then it might be better to go back to the Changelling Hypothesis and make Harry a nearly-horcrux-which-is-not-really-a-horcrux-because-there-hasn't-been-the-horcrux-spell. And then you would have to wonder if it would work as a horcrux is supposed to.
And about the scar : a scar is a scar; the fact a dementor would suck what is in wouldn't make it disappear.

And about the scar : a scar is a scar; the fact a dementor would suck what is in wouldn't make it disappear.

Ooh, this just gave me an idea. Since JKR said that the last word of the last book is scar, many people have tried to figure out what context this appears in; and it seems most people think Harry's scar goes away.
What if it doesn't? What if it keeps bothering him? What if the book ends on a rather ominous and unfished note? What if it's something like this:
"Harry felt the horribly familiar pain in his forehead, and with a grimace he rubbed his aching scar."
Wouldn't you just drop the book and scream?!!!
Of course, it would be far more articulate and engrossing than that, but you get the idea. ;)
I know JKR has said that's all the adventures for Harry she has planned, but if he felt a twinge in his scar at the end - perhaps not all the Horcruxes are destroyed?- then the door is always open for a new set of stories, perhaps with grown-up Harry far in the future.
I don't necessarily think she would do this - in fact I'd be shocked - but boy would it be fun to get to that last page and be shocked like that! I love a good plot twist and hope I hope she gives us several!
~Gina :)

And about the scar : a scar is a scar; the fact a dementor would suck what is in wouldn't make it disappear.

Ooh, this just gave me an idea. Since JKR said that the last word of the last book is scar, many people have tried to figure out what context this appears in; and it seems most people think Harry's scar goes away.
What if it doesn't? What if it keeps bothering him? What if the book ends on a rather ominous and unfished note? What if it's something like this:
"Harry felt the horribly familiar pain in his forehead, and with a grimace he rubbed his aching scar."
Wouldn't you just drop the book and scream?!!!
Of course, it would be far more articulate and engrossing than that, but you get the idea. ;)
I know JKR has said that's all the adventures for Harry she has planned, but if he felt a twinge in his scar at the end - perhaps not all the Horcruxes are destroyed?- then the door is always open for a new set of stories, perhaps with grown-up Harry far in the future.
I don't necessarily think she would do this - in fact I'd be shocked - but boy would it be fun to get to that last page and be shocked like that! I love a good plot twist and hope I hope she gives us several!
~Gina :)

I m a huge fan of your article really, those are brilliant but a correction, im french and voldemort could only mean steal or flight of death not thieft.. it would have been : voleurdemort.
Bye bye waiting for the next article

Also, Rowling said in the POA DVD interview along with Alfonso Cuoron that there were moments in the film that were not in the books. She was surprised to see that these moments introduced, unknowingly, things that were coming up in future books. I think one of these was the punch that Hermione threw at Draco. It’s obvious that Draco will have to be dealt with in Book 7. Throughout the series, both books and films, the animosity between Draco and Hermione has grown. Draco “hopes it’s that Granger” who is the next mudblood killed in CoS, Draco vows to “get that jumped up mudblood” in the film PoA,

One small correction about the inclusion of the "punch". It was a punch in the movie, but the book did contain the scene, the only difference was: "She had slapped Malfoy across the face with all the strength she could muster."

It was in a different time, in the book (Chapter 15), just after Buckbeak's trial and before the Easter holidays, not at the end of the school year.

So Hermione did strike Draco in both instances, the only difference was the type of hit. So Kloves or Cuoron, did not think up the slap/punch, only its timeline in the story.

the emotional crowd that brings the dementors is an interestin idea but as well as house elves, centaurs abd giants (grawp and hagrid + some from OOTP) thier could also be representitives from each of the houses weve always had harrys classs mates from hufflepuff but ernie and zacarias smith have gone from bit parts to supporting and then thiers cho chang for ravenclaw and for slytherin maybe the sorting hat will be heard finally and i think malfoy and snape will they redeem themselves and represent slytherin along with the rest of the order of the phoenix which is possibly a symbol of the entire magical world all people and creature united and i would love to see the sorting hat thier.

The unusual mist meant that the dementors were breeding, Lili? Hmm, I'll definitely have to read HBP again to look for that. Bubblgumpkhar, you're right that the punch was in the book POA as well as the film, just a little different. I've always suspected that the thing that was in the film and not in the book was Snape shielding the trio from the werewolf. Something like that I could see happening in book 7. That was another interesting possible scenario with Harry doing something like "Accio soul" to destroy Voldy indirectly. I do agree with those who"ve said that it wouldn"t necessarily be through magic that Voldy is destroyed, that the magic adds interest and fun, but is incidental to the real human drama.

Just read the editorial, not the thread, so forgive my out of the blue post. I feel like I've just had a sneak peak at book 7. Some of the ideas mentioned have been in the back of my mind, but I haven't been able to express them. Voldemort being vanquished by dementor is one. Brilliant editorial Lady Lupin. I think you're the best editorialist on Mugglenet. :tu:

I think she has got a point.I mean the whole plot fitted very well.i discussed this my friends and they too think that patronus can play a crucial role in the last installment.dumbledore says there many ways to destroy a person and there are things worse than death.may be he is hinting about the dementors' kiss. Jo always reminds us about the kiss (i mean the dementors,and not snogging) in the 3rd,4th and the 5th book.Any way we have wait till the last Hp releases.:tu:

she really got a brilliant style of writing .So i advice you consider it as a serious career option.u really can b the next JKR.

"I thought the dementors guard the prisoners in Azkaban," [the Prime Minister] said cautiously. "They did," said Fudge wearily. "But not anymore. They've deserted the prison and joined He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. I won't pretend that wasn't a blow." "But," said the Prime Minister, with a sense of dawning horror, "didn't you tell me they're the creatures that drain hope and happiness out of people?" "That's right. And they're breeding. That's what's causing all this mist." Pg. 14 American Hardback

There ya go :) It was fudge not Dumbledore that said it, but I knew I'd seen it somewhere lol.

Hi!

After reading this article it started me thinking: The power Harry has is love and he has more of it than anyone else. So would it be possible for him to be able to produce more than one patonus with just one spell i.e. it taking more than one form at the same time.


Lady Lupin your article was one of the best I have read. I look forward to the next one:cool:

I thought that Lupin said that the reason why the Dememtors where so attracked to Harry is because he had such horrors in his life. Harry had a miserable childhood, parents murdered, faced Quirrelmort, basaklisk, Tom, etc., so the Dementors are attracted to the horror then feed of the goodness in your mind so that all you have left is the bad memories. It seems like a paradox.

I also believe that the house elves will play a role with thier own "special" brand of magic. It is said repeatedly that the wizarding community ignores the plight of the house elves. Binns drones on and on about the goblin rebellions as they fought for freedom and now they run the only bank in wizard world. If the house elves had freedom, and we know that they have an immense capacity for love, how would that play into the "love" battle? We all know that they fear the Dark Lord and respect Harry--all the house elves that don't work for DEs, that is. DD says repeatedly that indifference is a worse kind of abuse. What would a freed workforce of elves play in a V and DE free wizard world? What about the future of SPEW? There has been considerable ink on the plight of house elves, so that conflict needs to be resolved.

We all know how easily Dobby threw Malfoy down the stairs at the end of CoS. What type of 12 step plan is available for Winky? There are the two extremes of house elves. Is there a middle ground there?

The Centaurs were not LV fans, they stayed to themselves, but we need to look for clues as to Mars dimming or Venus rising.

Was DD an anamangus?

When will DD wake up from his sleeping portraint to give MInerva and Harry advice?

Did Tom use Myrtle's death to make a horcrux in the girl's bathroom or somewhere else at Hogwarts? I beleive that the death of a victim and the spell to make a horcrux need to be done nearly simultaneously. Would the basalisk be a horcrux and Harry indeed killed two at once?

I don't think LV would have made a horcrux out of something Hufflepuff because he loathed anyone into Hogwarts who was not worthy and something Hufflepuff would not be worthy of a piece of his soul. Of course, he is his own hypocrite being a half blood himself.

I see a lot of symbolism of Draco breaking Harry's nose. He need to keep his nose out of Draco's business or it will bleed! However, I see an aliance between DRaco and Harry as necessary to defeat LV, or maybe Snape?

I firmly believe that Hogwarts must cease to be divided, or "quartered" as stated by the hat in order for the school to survive. REmember that the sorting hat was created by the founders, but laid the foundation for division among the wizarding world. The Sorting Hat hated the function it was designed for!

I believe all of the "underlings" of the wizard world, house elves, goblins, giants, mudbloods and even some muggles must unite in the end to defeat LV. Why would the Muggle Prime Minister be included in the begining of HBP if not to forshadow the importance of Muggle society in the wizarding world? I think it was more that to tell us the the dementors were breeding. I don't remember the dementors playing an active role at all in the 6th book.

So it is LV, DE and DE supporters (Umbridge, etc) , werewolves, maybe giants and/or goblins versus Harry & co, the Order, house elves, giants and/or goblins. Grawp will have a role to play in assisting the good guys--I hope.

How about the love Merope had for her son? She sold the only thing she had of value to support Tom. She died caring and loving her son. Could she have left an 'Imprint" of her love on her son much in the same way as Lily?

Tom loathed her for dying and could not believe that it was his mother that was the magical one, not his father. I think the LV has a disdain for women. He obviously uses Bella and Cissy but does not respect them.

I believe the combined love of all the characters, major and minor,for a LV free world, love for eachother will empower the patronuses in the scenario laid out by Lady Lupin. I like an idea of all the patronuses uniting into one SuperPatronus that has the anti-effect of the dementor's kiss. Maybe the parts left of LV's soul will be "reattached", Tom will find love from having his soul reunited and therefor LV will be vanquished and Tom return. Of course he'll need a little plastic surgery to fix the nose and eyes.......

Well,this is the first time i'm posting here. I don't know whether the following stuff has been discussed earlier.
It struck me while reading GOF...

the Fidelius Charm that protected Harry when his parents were killed , gets strengthened in the presence of a blood relative(viz., Aunt Petunia), where no one can hurt him. In GOF , when Harry tells Dumbledore of Voldemort's return,
the moment he speaks of VOldemort taking Harry's blood to rejuvinate himself,
there is a gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. That may be becoz now Voldemort has become a "blood relative" of Harry and the Fidelius Charm is expected to get stronger in Voldemort's presence.

Moreover, the power of love Harry has in his blood (his mother's love for him and also his own ability to love) may have an unexpected adverse effect on Voldemort. Some of it has been suggested when Voldemort possesses Harry at the end of the fight sequence in OOTP(when Harry wants Dumbledore to kill hom so that he could meet Sirius);Harry's love for Sirius makes Voldemort release his body.

I think the scar and Harry's blood are the key stuffs for destroying Voldemort. Well, Dumbledore in OOTP tells VOldemort ...we both know there are other ways of destroying a man( duz that refer to Horcruxes in entirety or duz that also have a wider angle of interpretation

The Fidelius Charm wasn't strengthened by Dumbledore's charm; that strengthened the protection from Lily's sacrifice.

that's exctly what I said. Well, I said that the charm gets strengthened (or maybe reinstated ) in the presence of a blood relative.

that's exctly what I said. Well, I said that the charm gets strengthened (or maybe reinstated ) in the presence of a blood relative.

No, it's not the same Charm.
When Harry and his parents were hidding in Godric's Hollow, the secret of their hidding place was protected by a Fidelius Charm. But Pettigrew who was the secret-keeper decided to reveal the secret to Voldemort, who therefore could find the Potters.
Then, he killed James and asked Lilly to go out of his way during he killed her son. Lilly refused and made the choise to sacrify herself to protect her son until the end. That chosen sacrifice summonded an ancient magic based on the power of loved which gave Harry a specific protection that made Voldemort's killing curse rebound and forbide Voldemort from that moment
to touch Harry without being burned.
Then, after that, using the protection, its nature and the fact it was related to Lilly's and Harry's blood to his advantage, Dumbledore practised an other ancient magic charm so that noone could killed Harry by his aunt's as long as he could call her house his home and he is still underaged. But it's not a Fidelius Charm.

I thought that Lupin said that the reason why the Dememtors where so attracked to Harry is because he had such horrors in his life. Harry had a miserable childhood, parents murdered, faced Quirrelmort, basaklisk, Tom, etc., so the Dementors are attracted to the horror then feed of the goodness in your mind so that all you have left is the bad memories. It seems like a paradox.

Since the original editorial was about dementors and patronuses (patroni?) I don't feel like I am going off the subject too much. I was wondering about the same thing as the quote above. I watched the PoA movie last night, and it seemed to say some things about dementors that didn't really match up. So I read some parts of the book and I am still a bit confused. If dementors are attracted to a persons horrors and unhappiness, why do they suck all the good feelings away? Why don't they feed on the bad feelings? In the movie it was implied that they fed off the pain that the bad feelings caused as the victim was forced to relive his worst memories. This makes more sense to me than dementors feeding on happiness. But this isn't right, because the Patronus is like a shield of happiness which the dementors feed on instead of feeding on the victim himself. So if the dementors feed on happiness, why are they so nasty and mean? Why aren't they attracted to super cheerful people - wouldn't happy people give them more to feed off of? It does seem like a bit of a paradox to me. Hm.
~Gina :)

Gmarium makes an interesting point there. If Dementors are attracted to a person's horrors and unhappiness why aren't they attracted to Voldemort? He seems to be a most unhappy miserable git and has horror all around him. come to think of it Snape is also an unhappy miserable person yet we don't see Dementors especially attracted to him do we?
Also if the saying is true that you area what you eat - why aren't the Dementors happy - unless of course they are happy being miserable? But what happens to all the happy thoughts they suck out of people?
Then again maybe that's why they leave Voldie and Snape alone - no happy thoughts to suck out? Yes the Dementors do seem to be a bit of a contradiction don't they?
It's all very confusing I must admit.

I was wrong about the Fidelius charm. I even looked it up at JKR's official website. Thanks MO1 and Inkling7 !
However, the idea still holds without that name.
Now,I read Gmariam's ideas. Really Interesting. An earlier post of hers about the scar is also what i've been thinking about , myself(and certainly posted, with flawed "fidelius" technicalities.)

The scar and the power of love is what DDore had stressed on, a lot since the Philosopher's Stone and yet not enough has been clarified regarding it. It has had episodes (the scar in GoF and OOTP; while the power of love in PP,OOTP) and DDore stresses onthe fact that the unknown power that Harry possesses is that of LOVE about which Voldemort knows nothing of.


A "duelling " end for Voldemort is improbable (a main reason being the wands of Harry and Voldemort sharing cores---Phoenix feathers). As for Horcruxes, it
is interesting to know how the rest can be destroyed now that Dumbledore is gone (Well, I think www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com have quite interesting points against it). Still it comes in the end to destroying Vmort in person, where the unknown power comes into action.

The role of scar is still no very clear...is it just an antennae or perhaps a bridge through which harry can weild his "unknown power" on Vmort?

Since the original editorial was about dementors and patronuses (patroni?) I don't feel like I am going off the subject too much. I was wondering about the same thing as the quote above. I watched the PoA movie last night, and it seemed to say some things about dementors that didn't really match up. So I read some parts of the book and I am still a bit confused. If dementors are attracted to a persons horrors and unhappiness, why do they suck all the good feelings away? Why don't they feed on the bad feelings? In the movie it was implied that they fed off the pain that the bad feelings caused as the victim was forced to relive his worst memories. This makes more sense to me than dementors feeding on happiness. But this isn't right, because the Patronus is like a shield of happiness which the dementors feed on instead of feeding on the victim himself. So if the dementors feed on happiness, why are they so nasty and mean? Why aren't they attracted to super cheerful people - wouldn't happy people give them more to feed off of? It does seem like a bit of a paradox to me. Hm.
~Gina :)

My understanding was that the EFFECT on harry was worse b/c of the traumas in his life , personally I think the dementors were even as early as PoA under the influence of LV and that they went after harry b/c they were doing LV's bidding from when LV was powerful

It would be improbable , that Dementors did Vmort's bidding as early as PoA.You see, Dementors are not Vmort's servants like the Death Eaters. They are merely natural allies being dark creatures themselves. When Vmort was in full form they used to listen to him probably, as allies rather than as servants... coz we find that Vmort usually promises his "allies" more prey or better opportunities which he doesn't in case of Death eaters. Its the greed and favorable opportunities that drove the Dementors to attack in HBP (Dementor attacks reported in Daily Prophet.), more than Vmort's ndfathercommands.

During PoA Vmort was still "Less than a spirit" and his own confidence was waning too, which he himself admitted in GoF. It wouldn't be possible perhaps to control Dementors while even his Death Eaters weren't not quite under his control. he would also not be able to promise them anything himself being in a wretched condition.

Off the topic question:-

I OOTP , during Harry's trial at the MoM, when announcing full names of people concerned there, Percy's name was announced Percy Ignatius Weasley, when Percy's father's name is Arthur Weasley.
Who is Ignatius , Percy's grandfather?

shaambo

don't you find it interesting that the main death eaters who were caught managed to survive 14 years in askahban while most everyone else went nuts and died . Seems too coincidental to me. I think the dementors still held some allegience to V probably for the same reason that those inside and outside the prison who were deatheaters did- they knew he would return and reward them for their loyalty.

Maybe they survived because they just didn't have any happy thoughts...
hate, is a dark place.

It may also be (going by you painlypotter), that perhaps they tortured the Death Eaters less in hope of Voldemort's return or maybe bcoz hey were once upon a time in the same boat.(Everything's a speculation, some are calculated ones and some random)
However polyjuicegranny's explanations are apparently more rational.

Also remember that Barty Crouch Junior escaped from Azkaban with the help of his mother who substituted herself for him. But then again so did Sirius who got out as a dog. The question is why didn't he do it sooner? Why haven't others escaped using similar means? Dementers don't seem to be able to see so do they have to zoom in on people by instinct or smell? As Voldie is such a nasty misery-guts I wonder what would happen when Dementors get near him? No real happy thoughts from him to suck out unless you count the 'happiness' he gets killing people, terrorising and intimidating them and generally causing grief and misery everywhere he and his deatheaters go. Will he just have to be killed by love somehow? He certainly couldn't be 'loved to death' though.

This is the best theory for the end of the book I have read yet. I love the idea of Tom Riddle sitting in a padded room somewhere forever. What irony. I also like this idea because I have always thought (based on the way the prophecy was worded) that Harry would defeat Voldemort but not kill him.

Inkling - there were extenuating circumstances with Barty Crouch, Jr. and Sirius Black. Barty's mother was extremely ill anyway and there was no 'change' in the emotions the Dementors felt.

Sirius got out because he was an UNREGISTERED animagus. Recall the the Ministry is supposed to register all animagi, so theoretically if animagi are sent to Askabahn the dementors will know and take appropriate steps. In this case they didn't know and didn't take the steps.

As to why he didn't escape earlier - he didn't care enough about life to do so. He had no reason to live since that night in Godric's Hollow - until he saw that newspaper with the rat in Egypt...

I think Lady Lupin is on the right track with the idea that Voldemort will have his soul removed by the dementors. Time and time again we have heard testimony that to have your soul sucked out is too horrible to imagine and a permanent event. I believe it is this action that Dumbledore directly refers to when he tells Voldemort in the MoM that there are worse things than dying. In reference to Lady Lupin's latest posting to Mr. Yates, I only hope that if this ending scenario is the one that JKR writes, that Yates and his talented production crew do it justice!!!!! Here's to hoping!

You're right Nobleone i'd forgotton about the rat and the Egypt photo and also that Mrs Couch was very ill so had nothing to lose.
I bet there are quite a few unregistered animagi around so I wonder who else is going to pop up as one.

Lady Lupin you always write editorials that make sense and could actually happen. I like your theory allot better then some of the others that I have read.

Bravo:clap: :tu: :tu:

I know I will get a lot of **** for this but I didn't particularly like this editorial. I am a fan of your work as well as the other people posting here, but his one didn't do it for me. It felt like you stretched out a bit on a few of the spells and terms. On the whole, keep up the good work.

I think its possible. But Voldemort has called dementors his natural allies. They are because he is without much of his own soul. The dementors are soul-less. The dementors want to devour whole souls, not tatters of fraction of a soul. Voldemort also doesnt have bad memories like other people do. He has no guilt for his deeds, so those memories dont affect him. It seems he was a pretty evil person from the beggining, so i dont think he ever felt much pity for himself in the orphanage. And as Dumbledore pointed out repeatedly, Voldemort doesnt want to be dependent on anyone. He wants to be above everyone. He would not ally himself with creatures that could hurt him.

Also, in HBP we find out that Snape does not agree that a Patronus is the most effective means of tackling dementors. His method probably has to do with occlumency, emptying the mind of emotion. Voldemort is in a permanant state of emptied emotion, dementors just dont affect him.

I really enjoyed this article. :) I'm a big fan of the Patronus Charm, and I'm glad that someone has written an editorial about it.

I'd like to offer another way of destroying Voldemort, if you'll hear it. Harry and Neville are closely related via the prophecy made about Voldemort, yet Harry is "the one" because of Voldemort's marking him. I'm a fan of the idea that Neville will have a part to play in Voldemort's destruction. As I've said in one of your other editorial threads, I believe that Neville will become the Herbology professor in this last book, and that will be important. How? In CoS, we learn of a specific plant that has the ability to kill all who hear its cries - the Mandrake. If Neville becomes the Herbology professor, can he supply Harry with mandrakes that could, in turn, help to kill Voldemort? Can a Mandrake's cry kill Voldemort? Or is he somehow immune to its powers?

"His ricocheted AK seemed to destroy Voldemort's first body, but leave his bit of soul intact to exist as Vapormort, until he was able to create a new body."


I find that to be very interesting for one reason - Priori Incantatem. Priori Incantatem happens when two wands with a core from the same animal, are forced to duel, causing one of the wands to regurgitate the last spells the wand cast. During Priori Incantatem, we see Cedric, Frank, Bertha, Lily, and James come out of the end of the wand. However, we never see any indication of Voldemort casting any spells at Harry. Shouldn't there have been some sort of "ghostly image" of Voldemort, since he was hit by the curse. Or at least some image to indicate that a spell was cast? But there wasn't. If there had been, it would have come right before Lily. Why wasn't there an image of the Avada Kedavra cast at Harry?

This is the best theory for the end of the book I have read yet. I love the idea of Tom Riddle sitting in a padded room somewhere forever. What irony. I also like this idea because I have always thought (based on the way the prophecy was worded) that Harry would defeat Voldemort but not kill him.
Well; the prophecy does state that, but it also states that "neither can live while the other survives". If Voldemort's last teeny-tiny bit of soul is sucked out by a Dementor's Kiss, wouldn't he still survive? If Lady Lupin's theory is right, and I loved that theory, it would mean that if Voldemort survives, Harry cannot live... Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be a bit complicated to explain, since we won't have any more of Dumbledore's explanatory speeches at the end of the book... But maybe for this once Harry will figure it out for himself!

A couple thoughts of note:

In HBP, Harry actually tells us that Snape can not conjure a patronus....He is thinking of how he will not do well on a DADA essay because he disagrees with Snape as how best to deal with dementors...It is one JKR's throwaway lines that could mean something much larger in regards to the story.

The spell that defeated Grindewald, and the one Voldemort needed to deflect with the shield in OOTP will somehow play part in Voldemorts undoing. We do not know if they were some form of a patronus...could be.

The gleem of triumph will be explained and perhaps shed the light needed to understand why the spell Harry uses will defeat Voldemort.

I though the editorial raised some very good points!
Of course Snape can cast a Patronus. He is/was a member of the Order, and they communicate by sending each other their Patronus. Just because Snape thinks there's something better out there for defeating dementors doesn't mean he can't cast one....

We don't know how Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. It might not have been a spell.

Also, we don't know what spell Dumbledore cast and was deflected off of Voldemort's shield...it wasn't a Patronus, though. That bit I'm sure of.

I do agree that the "gleam of triumph" will make sense later. Perhaps Dumbledore's portrait will shed light on it.

To comment on Lady Lupin's wonderful editorial, I only have two major beefs with it: the idea that Harry's Patronus could become a phoenix is one. Dumbledore said that no one's Patronus is alike. Does this mean no one has had a phoenix Patronus before him and no one can have one after him? Or does it mean that since Dumbledore is dead Harry's Patronus could now change and take the same form as Dumbledore's? Is there also the chance more than one person could have the same animal as a Patronus, but that the animal forms would be individualistic in their details? I don't think Harry's Patronus will change. We didn't know what form Tonks' Patronus took originally and didn't know anything about her Patronus at all until Snape informs Harry via that cruel comment that Tonks' new Patronus was weak. This could bode poorly for Tonks, but not due to anything Snape does, I hope! Snape, on the other hand, could have a change in Patronus form, or perhaps his has changed in the past!
The second is the whole concept of someone else (even a dementor) striking the final blow to Voldemort. What if all the horcruxes were destroyed and Voldemort were weaked to the point of being dementor-like in the extreme, then could Harry defeat him with a powerful enough Patronus to kill what's left of him?? Perhaps Voldemort is weakened, can no longer defend against dementors, dementor performs the kiss, Voldemort gets a taste of "worse than death", and then Harry kills the empty shell that remains?
Excellent! Well done! I do believe you are on to something here.
I have a thought: Doesn't Volde/deatheaters have a patronuse ...the Dark Mark? the Skull or was it a snake in the sky?
The Dark Mark is apparently just that: a mark. The spell used to cast it into the sky might be different than the one used to mark DE's arms, but the spell used to cast it into the sky also seems to do nothing else. The mark in the sky doesn't attack anyone. It just marks the spot where DE's have done something they wish to announce (like killing an enemy). The mark on a DE's arm seems to have qualities of a Protean Charm and also shows Voldemort's relative strength. What would a DE do if he/she saw his/her arm mark get faint again? Try to aid Voldemort? Defect?
Well done again Lady Lupin!
I've often wondered what Voldie's boggart would be and if he could ever overcome it. Would it be Harry vanquishing him or the sight of his own death and funeral or what? It's good in away that Harry fears Dementors more than Voldie (as we can see by Harry's boggart) and Lupin is right in pointing out to Harry that he only 'fears fear itself'. Now if he can overcome his fear of fear he will have less chance of doing something silly and thus costing his life and will give himself more chance of surviving his next encounter with Voldie. Perhaps the answer is to bring along a boggart to help defeat Voldie in case the Dementors strategy doesn't work out.
Maybe, as others have stated before, he might have to somehow trick Voldie into falling through the Veil to get rid of him once and for all. Once on the 'other' side all those he has wronged could wreak their revenge on hm and make his 'afterlife' thoroughly miserable which is no more than he deserves.
Another thought - Harry will need to hone up on his occlumency skills so Voldie can't pre-empt any of Harry's defensive and offensive actions, plus his legilmency skills so he can pre-empt Voldie's offensive and defensive actions and therefore defeat him and survive.
We already know what Voldemort's boggart is: himself, on the floor, dead. Jo tells us this. Just like Molly's dementor changes to show the death of each family member, Voldemort's boggart could change to show different means of death, but this isn't important. Getting Voldemort to slip through the veil makes little sense to me. I don't think he'd fall for that, and I doubt he'd "be caught dead" (haha) even in that Death Chamber! He's more likely to end up in the sealed DoM chamber, which probably has something to do with love, though it's more likely that Harry finds something there that he can later use (like another Philosopher's Stone, remember Dumbledore said of the one we've seen that that particular one has been destroyed, also the Chocolate Frog says that Nicolas Flamel was the only known posessor of a Philosopher's Stone. It's likely to not be the only one.)
Also, Occulmency and Legilimancy, as useful as they can undoubtedly be, might not be of any particular use to Harry. Snape values them, they are helpful to him, but he's not Harry. Snape's survival seems to demand hiding feelings and memories, revealing them only to those he chooses. Harry's strength, as we saw at the MoM in OotP was his overwhelming feelings, specifically of love. Besides Occlumency won't help him if he's trying to duel against Voldemort with a brother wand. Even non-verbal spells won't help with the wand situation. I think Harry could only use Occlumency to his advantage if he 1] perfects non-verbal spells AND 2] can cast them wandlessly! I do hope we get to see Harry using more wandless magic. If his immediately obeyed command of "Up!" in PS/SS is any indication, I think we will.
That was so good! Wow, how do you people think up stuff like that?! Anyway, here's my two cents:

While it is certainly plausible, and more likely than anything else I've heard in the editorials, I don't really think that the show down is going to come down to patronuses and dementors. That's rather like letting someone else fight your battle. Harry is going to be the one to kill/destroy Voldemort, however, I don't think he's even going to use magic.

I've said throughout this whole series that magic is the backdrop to the humanity of the story, it makes for fun detours and awesome adventures, but magic is not what the story is about. We'd be just as fascinated, just as torn up, and just as anxious to see what happens if all of this were taking place in a normal world. Because it's the ultimate good vs. evil theme that draws us in. We know, beyond doubt, that good is going to win. We just don't know how. I think that magic, as useful and powerful as it is, is going to be pointless.

Think about it, if Tom Riddle hadn't been born a wizard, he would have led a resentful bitter life, perhaps killing some people, getting caught, and sent to prison. He would be a normal person, living, breathing, dying, just like the rest of us. It's the one thing he doesn't want to be. Normal. Even more than he fears death, I feel that Riddle fears normalicy. Take away his magic, and he is just normal.

I have no idea how that could play out in the books, but I think it will have something to do with the final showdown.
I have also entertained the thought of Harry ultimately defeating Voldemort in some Muggle fashion, but I think that borders on being entirely too ironic, if that's possible. Although Dumbldore wished Voldemort something worse than death, Voldemort fears nothing more than death, besides the prophesy states one must die by the hand of the other. Unless we are all mis-interpreting "the other" and "die" Harry must kill Voldemort or vice versa. The only proper punishment I can see for Voldemort is for him to glimpse what Dumbledore means by "worse than death" before he dies! (see about my comments above re: the kiss.) And the only way something/one other than harry could kill Voldemort is if we all mis-interpreted the prophesy's wording "one must die by the hand of the other". Hmmm...is "the other" someone other than "the One" and "the Dark Lord"? If so, it should be capitalized, right? But if not, who could it be? Snape? Wormtail with his new silvery and ultra-strong hand? Sadly, this is very doubtful....
So here’s where my theory on how Harry can do away with Voldemort gets “pretty far out there.” If Snape is present when Harry confronts Voldemort, he could distract the weakened Voldemort. Harry could use his wand to cast the “accio soul” spell towards Voldemort, throw the last piece of Voldemort’s soul into another creature (Nagini?) and then destroy Nagini or whatever creature he throws the piece of soul into. That way, Harry is destroying Voldemort without using his wand directly against him. Now, when anyone reading this stops laughing and gets up from the floor, could you tell me your thoughts?
Pretty far out there indeed. Accio soul! That's nuts. :)
Interesting that you interpret the patronus as a holy spirit. I see it as less of a Christian manifestation and more of a pagan manifestation. It makes me think of the animal spirit guides of native Americans (though I'm no expert on the subject... any natives on this forum?) You don't get a lot of animal images in Christianity, except for the fish and I'm almost certain that predates Christianity.
Actually there is quite a bit of Christian animal symbolism, and most, if not all, of them also predate Christianity...goats, lamb/sheep, fish, yaddayaddayadda. I do believe Patronus is best defined as a Patron Spirit, so it is basically a guardian angel....
Lady Lupin, I am very very pleased that you have been given your own column. I have always liked your editorials and this one is no exception. This theory seems quite pheasable to me. The idea of love being used as a weapon was a concept that I found it hard to wrap my head around, but this does crystallize that concept for me. I remember Jo saying somewhere that it was important that Lily's wand was good for charm work. I wondered why that should be, until this editorial. It seems logical that when Harry returns to Godric's Hollow that he would find Lily's wand and keep it for use against Voldemort since Harry knows his wand is ineffective in that capacity. If Lily's wand is so good for charms, what would be the most powerful one we could think of - the patronus charm.
Was it Ollivander who said no one else's wand will work as well for a witch/wizard as her/his own?? That said, how could Lily's wand (as good at charms as it is) actually be better for Harry than his own? Just because his won't work against Voldemort's? He might yet be able to cast well with her wand, but not as well as with his own. It would be nice to see Harry defeat Voldemort in a way that incorporates a stag Patronus and Lily's wand, though. :)
Final curtain, and Harry has to get used to living without his scar.
Harry will have that scar his whole life, according to Dumbledore.
Well,this is the first time i'm posting here. I don't know whether the following stuff has been discussed earlier.
It struck me while reading GOF...

the Fidelius Charm that protected Harry when his parents were killed , gets strengthened in the presence of a blood relative(viz., Aunt Petunia), where no one can hurt him. In GOF , when Harry tells Dumbledore of Voldemort's return,
the moment he speaks of VOldemort taking Harry's blood to rejuvinate himself,
there is a gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. That may be becoz now Voldemort has become a "blood relative" of Harry and the Fidelius Charm is expected to get stronger in Voldemort's presence.

Moreover, the power of love Harry has in his blood (his mother's love for him and also his own ability to love) may have an unexpected adverse effect on Voldemort. Some of it has been suggested when Voldemort possesses Harry at the end of the fight sequence in OOTP(when Harry wants Dumbledore to kill hom so that he could meet Sirius);Harry's love for Sirius makes Voldemort release his body.

I think the scar and Harry's blood are the key stuffs for destroying Voldemort. Well, Dumbledore in OOTP tells VOldemort ...we both know there are other ways of destroying a man( duz that refer to Horcruxes in entirety or duz that also have a wider angle of interpretation
Not only is mo1 right about the whole Fidelius Charm vs. Dumbledore's magic to reinforce the magic protection Lily's sacrifice provided, but that protection couldn't possibly be what will protect him from Voldemort, since the protection ends on Harry's 17th birthday....
don't you find it interesting that the main death eaters who were caught managed to survive 14 years in askahban while most everyone else went nuts and died . Seems too coincidental to me. I think the dementors still held some allegience to V probably for the same reason that those inside and outside the prison who were deatheaters did- they knew he would return and reward them for their loyalty.
Or perhaps Occlumency helped them, afterall??

DanDumbledore, I like the idea of using mandrake cries to kill Voldemort. Haha. I also truely believe the classmate destined to teach at Hogwarts is Neville, as Herbology professor. :D

Not only is mo1 right about the whole Fidelius Charm vs. Dumbledore's magic to reinforce the magic protection Lily's sacrifice provided, but that protection couldn't possibly be what will protect him from Voldemort, since the protection ends on Harry's 17th birthday....


It's the protection Charm Dumbledore casted on the Dursley's house which will end on Harry's 17th birthday.
We don't have any reason to think that Lily's protection which lies in Harry's blood will disappear at the same time. And no reason too to think that it won't be part of Voldemort's final downfall.

Well it seems Voldie will have to be vanquished with love after all. We hear of killing someone with kindness so that could be an option also I guess. Isn't there also a saying love your enemies - it will drive them crazy?
Really Voldie might have to be vanquished by trickery using his weaknesses to trick him but he'd better be caught on his own as Harry won't want any pesky deatheaters around to interfering in this last duel.

Well, we saw how Voldemort couldn't bear to posses Harry, a person filled with love in OotP. So perhaps if Harry is capable, because of this love, to feel sorry for voldy, or something, Harry's blood in his veins will be part of his downfall? Maybe Harry's blood contaminated Voldemort in such a way, that he'll be capable of good emotions like pity, and the guilt he feels for his crimes will consume him a way? I don't think dementors will be a part of it: why would they be attracted to a small destroyed soul, when their are happy, good and powerfull ones around?

It's the protection Charm Dumbledore casted on the Dursley's house which will end on Harry's 17th birthday.
We don't have any reason to think that Lily's protection which lies in Harry's blood will disappear at the same time. And no reason too to think that it won't be part of Voldemort's final downfall.
Didn't Lily's protection die when Voldemort touched him at the end of GoF??

Didn't Lily's protection die when Voldemort touched him at the end of GoF??

No :
"I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother dies to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put therefore my trust in your mother's blood." Dumbledore, OotP, The Lost Prphecy, 918.
bold : my emphasis

At the end of GoF, Voldemort used Harry's blood and therefore, he circumvented the protection : now he also have the protection in his blood, he is able to touch Harry without being burnt.
But the protection still exists.

At the end of GoF, Voldemort used Harry's blood and therefore, he circumvented the protection : now he also have the protection in his blood, he is able to touch Harry without being burnt.
But the protection still exists.

But if Voldemort can now touch Harry, what is Harry actually protected from? In SS/PS we saw that Voldemort could not touch Harry because of this protection; in GoF he took Harry's blood and could touch him. So if the protection still exists for Harry, what is it really protecting him from?
I think that Voldemort taking Harry's blood negated the effect of the charm; it didn't transfer any protection to Voldemort (he can't touch himself now?:lol: ) And of course Dumbledore had that mysterious "glint of triumph" in his eyes when Harry told him what had happened, so I think that by taking Harry's blood and negating the protection it gave Harry, Voldemort has somehow set himself up for a fall.
What that means I have no idea. ;)
~Gina :)

We now must remember the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes when Harry told him what happened in the graveyard in GOF. Why the gleam if it now meant Voldemort coud physically touch Harry and not die as he did when Quirrell touched Harry?
I think this means that Harry has some other way to vanquish Voldemort which may be more permanent but the burning question is what is it?
An ideas anyone?

An ideas anyone?

Well, there's the Harry-is-a-horcrux theory. If you take in account Dumbledore's statement about how unwise it is to have something which is able to think on its own being a horcrux, it might be interesting. Especially during the time Harry will be hunting the horcruxes.

Going back to the origins of this tread, there's Lady Lupin's theory about Patronuses too. As Voldemort is not much more than a dementor now, it might be a way to finish him off.

But about blood...
Some have proposed that Harry's blood has somehow infected Voldemort with love and that it would kill him once the horcruxes would be destroyed.
Some others have built a theories about Harry's lineage.
But I bet we are far from the true answer of the blood problem.

I think this means that Harry has some other way to vanquish Voldemort which may be more permanent but the burning question is what is it?
An ideas anyone?

I think its possible that the "gleam of triumph" was there in Dumbledore's eyes because his theories about the protection in Harry's blood from his mother's sacrifice had been proven true. Perhaps he was just glad to know that he had been right. After that look he becomes old and tired again, and says something about Voldemort overcoming that particular protection. Hm, let me get my book . . .

"Very well," he said, sitting down again. "Voldemort has overcome that particular barrier. Harry, continue, please." GoF p. 696

"That particular barrier" seems to imply that there were other things protecting Harry. We know about returning to the Durselys, so perhaps there are others we still don't know; perhaps Dumbledore's gleam is a look of triumph because Voldemort didn't figure the other protections out.

But that still leaves a question - what are the other protections?

And I still think that it could also mean Dumbledore sees a way Voldemort can be destroyed now with Harry's blood. But then why didn't he tell Harry in Book Six???

~Gina :)

"That particular barrier" seems to imply that there were other things protecting Harry. We know about returning to the Durselys, so perhaps there are others we still don't know; perhaps Dumbledore's gleam is a look of triumph because Voldemort didn't figure the other protections out.
Voldemort knows at least some of the other protections :
"But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected thna I think he even knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledorelong ago when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there... [...]
And then, the boy would return to Hogwarts, where he is under the crooked nose of that Muggle-loving fool from morning until night. "
LV, GoF, The Death Eaters, 712

But that still leaves a question - what are the other protections?

And I still think that it could also mean Dumbledore sees a way Voldemort can be destroyed now with Harry's blood. But then why didn't he tell Harry in Book Six???


Two very good questions.

I just discovered Spinner's End and have been been reading through all the editorials, but this one was my favorite. (Lady Lupin, whoever you are, I hope you're writing something besides this column -- not that it isn't a very worthwhile venture in and of itself, but you write so exceptionally well that I would dearly love to see you lend your amazing insight and brilliant turn of phrase to something a bit more enduring). I, too, have long thought that Harry would vanquish Voldemort in some way other than splitting his own soul by killing him (LV). My own theory was that Harry might attempt a Lily-like sacrifice to save Ginny, Ron, Hermione, or all three, and that this might cause LV's killing curse to rebound once more. However, I like the "light defeating darkness" theory better. Of course none of us have any idea whether or not this is the path JKR is on, but even if it isn't, I love both the logic and the beauty of your theories. Bravo, bravo, bravo!

This editorial was so amazing . After reading it , I was so angry with you because I was sure that you had revealed the final chapters of the final book for us . I started pondering over the idea whether Voldemort would be wiped clean by a dementor - yes , He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is evil and he might not have any happy thoughts to conjure when faced by a dementor(s) . But then I thought to myself - Well , Voldemort sure can feel happy . He was when his death eaters broke out and he must have been after Dumbledore's demise . Also , if you remeber in POA movie , Harry says to Lupin - " I was thinking of them ( his parents ) , they were waving and smiling at me. It wasn't a memory but it was the best I had . " Hence , to ward off a dementor you dont need to feast upon a memory of the past . All you have to do is to think of something which makes you happy , makes you happy and not everyone else . For Voldemort , killing Harry would make him extremely happy and such a thought would be enough to ward off a dementor ( or immortality ) . Happiness like everything else is a personal issue . Helping a needy person would make me happy and content but it wouldn't please a murderer . If he could blow up a building , now that would make him bark with happiness . Also , Voldemort sure knows how to control the dementors ( he has done so in the past ) , hence , I think that Voldemort getting killed by a dementor is not plausible , though I still agree that it would be " Light v/s Dark " and that Voldemort wouldnt be killed off by a mere Avada Kedavara . No because in the words of Dumbledore " There are things worse than death , Tom " .

Arjun

I quite agree. Voldemort is completely capable of happyiness, contentment, mirth. Even though Draco failed to kill Dumbledore, Narcissa and Bellatrix spoke to Snape behind his back, and Snape has now succeeded where even Voldemort had failed, the mere fact that Dumbledore is dead must make Voldemort quite happy.

Regardless, we have no reason to believe Voldemort would use a Patronus against a dementor. A Patronus is "light" magic and probably not so highly regarded by him. Snape has mentioned (to his DADA class, or at least to Harry) another way of fighting, possibly controlling, dementors...Harry just needs to consider this info. Though this method (whatever it may be) is possibly "dark" (or neutral) and might not be right (or manageable) for Harry to use, it would likely give him more insight into Voldemort's powers.

I wonder what OTHER powers Harry has gained from Voldemort. We know he has gained a language (Parceltongue). We know he's particularly good at DADA, and we can assume Voldemort was no slouch in his schooling. Harry's DADA skills seem almost instinctual, just needing a bit of honing. What other skills/powers does Voldemort have? Legilimency and most-likely Occlumency. Harry has shown that he could perhaps gain SOME skill in Occlumency if he REALLY worked on it. He obviously hasn't picked that skill up from Voldemort. How about Legilimency? Though he doesn't actively use it to pick brains, he does seem vaguely aware when someone is picking his brain, especially Snape. Is it possible that Harry is using some mild form of Legilimency when he "feels" like someone is trying to jog his noggin? I mean, Snape didn't always say "Legilimens!" every time we think he was using that skill. Snape's quite good at nonverbals, plus he implies eye contact isn't required, since he says eye contact is almost-always needed.... Though time and space are important in magic (once again a gem of knowledge from Prof. Snape) Harry and Voldemort share some sort of space/time connection, so that Voldemort has to now use Occulmency just to keep Harry out of his head. Therefore, will we see Harry discover a talent for Legilimency? What other powers has Harry gleaned from the backfired curse?

Instead of a dementors kiss, how about another showdown at the ministry and Harry forces Voldemort thru the veil.

My own theory was that Harry might attempt a Lily-like sacrifice to save Ginny, Ron, Hermione, or all three, and that this might cause LV's killing curse to rebound once more. However, I like the "light defeating darkness" theory better.

I, too thought of the repeated rebounding curse (see story link, below), but was literally blown out of my chair when I read this. It was so powerful to read I thought, as did others, that you had indeed channeled the actual end of this story. And if you haven't, then you've certainly come up with something as powerful, resonant and moving as Jo will.

This DOES make so much sense. Haven't we all been wondering how on earth Jo was going to fit in everything in one book? In this theory, finding all the horcruxes are a moot point! And, yes, to have one possible soul-bit lurking out there seems completely right as well. Like a seed of evil that could spring to life at any time. Which, of course we know it will.

Congratulations - I'm a huge fan of your writings!

I, too, have long thought that Harry would vanquish Voldemort in some way other than splitting his own soul by killing him (LV). My own theory was that Harry might attempt a Lily-like sacrifice to save Ginny, Ron, Hermione, or all three, and that this might cause LV's killing curse to rebound once more.

I perfectly agree with this theory. Harry will not perform any Avada Kedavra, he will just act as he has always done: on impulse. And he will sacrifice himself (or better: he will try to sacrifice himself) for someone he loves, and Vold's course will bounce once again. As Dumbledore stated: scars can be helpful, so my theory is that to get complete revenge, Voldemort will hit Harry on the scar, and that will be fatal to him. The problem is that I DON'T KNOW WHY. But I think that the power that the Dark Lord knows not is that Lily's protection has been transferred in order to make Harry capable to save with his sacrifice someone he loves, WITHOUT BEING AWARE HE CAN DO IT (as Jo said clearly, Lily didn't know she was saving Harry's life with her sacrifice) AND SURVIVE. A key point could be that the protection will work thanks to the blood transfusion that took place in the Graveyard... Maybe...

Beautiful editorial, as usual! Brava Lady Lupin:clap:

Harry, like many of the wizards/witches raised in Muggle homes, has a tendency to resort to Muggle tactics on impulse. (Recall that Vernon puts his hands around Harry's neck to strangle him at the start of OotP; Vernon is very physically violent, and perhaps some of this has rubbed off on Harry over the years. Also recall that Snape (a half-blood) resorts to Muggle tactics in OotP when he finds Harry peeking into the Pensieve. Snape grabs Harry and shakes him violently then throws a jar of roaches at him. Hermione slaps Draco in PoA.) In PoA Harry attacks Sirius with his hands. Again in HBP, Harry uses his hands on Mundungus, not his wand. I still hold out for the final blow to Voldemort being without magic, though magic will help lead up to that final moment....

Like Unicorn10 above, I am catching up on all the Spinner's End editorials (my hands-down favorite column) and all I can say is...brilliant, simply brilliant.

me too.
awesome awesomeness! you are a bloody genius, Lady Lupin

Although it's an amazingly written editorial, I don't think Harry will kill Tom/Voldemort/Dark Lord. The prophecy only implies that one has to die. Unless I am dreadfully mistaken, it never implies that Harry will kill Voldemort/Tom/Dark Lord/He-who-must-not-be-named/You-Know-Who. I actually think Fred and George will kill Voldemort, probably using some weird invention(s) of theirs...... But, once again, that was a beautiful editorial.

If you are correct, then consider Dumbledore's start of term speech, in POA film,
as differing from the book. Something about when it is darkest..."REMEMBER
TO TURN ON THE LIGHT"...

I love this editorial! Just brilliant as always! You give us so much more to think about. Thank you!!!

A comment or two, all tied into Volderiddle's demise...

If Mr. Ollivander has been kidnapped from his Diagon Alley shop, and if all of the wands have been taken, and if he "remembers every wand (he) ever sold," then does that mean that Voldemort and the DEs have priori incantatem 'antidotes' to every wand the Order of the Phoenix has?

If Neville Longbottom got the last, or next to the last wand Ollivander ever sold, might this make his wand immune to this effect because he has no match?

Might the last battle come down to who has the last usable wand, or perhaps the last combattants will be locked into battle, and, after having trashed Bella Lestrange, Chosen One 2 throws his wand to Chosen One 1 and Harry casts the Mother of All Patronuses to turn the tide?

Anyway, JKR seems determined that the battle go, not to magical knowledge, but to personal will and choice. Harry will win because, as he proved in Book 4, love gives him more backbone than Lord Voldemort.

I enjoyed reading your theory. It's the best theory I've read arguing mine so far.

Unfortunately, you failed to convince me. I strongly believe Harry himself is a horcrux. However, he will participate in defeating Voldemort as best he can. His mother's eyes might help him for the time being.

A quote from GOF "...between what is right, and what is easy" - Albus Dumboldor

This statement is made in both the movie and the book, supporting my theory completely. What is easy is that Harry doesn't die. What is RIGHT is that he does, seeing as he's a Horcrux and that it suits the novel. The only way Voldemort can die is if ALL the horcruxs are destroyed. Before one tries to contradict me, the prophecy doesn't state who the chosen one is, it gives us many characters suited for the position. I don't think JK Rowling will make it so simple by leaving it to be Harry.