Questions about the Hall of Prophecy & its Keeper

Ok I just got done reading OotP, and it said that after Voldermont attacked Harry the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that he relabled the prophecy. So does the keeper knows what the prophecy says and about other prophecies as well.

I'd imagine so - otherwise the prophesies could not be labeled according to the subject. And we know that the lable on Harry's prophesy was updated after Voldemort attacked the Potters.

originally posted by Rell
i'd imagine so - otherwise the prophesies could not be labeled according to the subject. And we know that the lable on Harry's prophesy was updated after Voldemort attacked the Potters.
i would think so too, but i dont think their could have been only one keeper of the hall EVER, what i mean is that surely there have been some prophecys that are quite old and their has been keepers that have died knowing them?so what about the knewwer keepers i wonder how they would know what all the prophecys contain?

maybe somehow the keeper only knows who the prophecy relates to and not the actual words of it? because to me it would seem a bit risky having one person know all these important prophecies relating to hundreds of people, imagine all the information they'd be privvy to...

i would think so too, but i dont think their could have been only one keeper of the hall EVER, what i mean is that surely there have been some prophecys that are quite old and their has been keepers that have died knowing them?so what about the knewwer keepers i wonder how they would know what all the prophecys contain?

Prehaps they only know what the prophecy relates too... Afterall who could be trusted with that much information? The Unspeakables/Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy may have a record of some sort though, revealing some information about each prophecy recorded by past Unspeakables? But one prehaps enchanted to reveal its secets only to a true Unspeakable?
Do you think JK will venture further into the Hall of Prophecy in Book 7? I'm not sure yet... But its a possibility...

Or do you think that Dumbledore (in the case of Harry's prophesy) could have told the Keeper who is was refering to or what the prophesy was about?

Well, if they know how to label it, I would assume they know what it's about right?

maybe somehow the keeper only knows who the prophecy relates to and not the actual words of it? because to me it would seem a bit risky having one person know all these important prophecies relating to hundreds of people, imagine all the information they'd be privvy to...
I imagine the Unspeakables go through a pretty thorough background check before they can get the job-probably like becoming a CIA agent in the US (I'm not sure what the equivalent agencies are in other countries). After all, they need to be trusted with not only the prophecies, but with the other top-secret mysteries in the DoM. Also, I'm not sure that being the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecies would be a full time job. How often could new prophecies possibly be made? All the Keeper of the Hall would have to do is label them-that's hardly full time work, especially if you use magic to do it! You can't even remove the prophecy unless you are the person about whom it was made, so it's not as if they can take them out to clean them or anything. There's probably someone who has the title, but I'm sure they probably do other things-and some of the other things that are researched in the DoM are potentially more dangerous than the knowledge of all the prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies. (Especially since many of the prophecies never come true, anyway, since those about whom they are made do not know about them-the Macbeth thing.)

I thought of another question while I was responding to this. If there is a prophecy about you, you need to go into the DoM to retrieve it yourself, since you are the only one that can retrieve it. Do the Unspeakables actually take people through the DoM to retrieve their prophecies? It seems like they would see a lot of stuff that should stay secret.

It does seem like the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy would indeed be able to listen to each new prophecy as it came in. But I suspect that even if he did hear them all once, in order to label them, there's really no way he could remember all that information. There must be hundreds of prophecies, and it's not like he could really write down all of the prophecies. Also, I don't think he'd be allowed to listen to them more than once in order to get an idea for the individuals they pertain to.

Do the Unspeakables actually take people through the DoM to retrieve their prophecies? It seems like they would see a lot of stuff that should stay secret.That's a good question. Perhaps there's a more direct way to get to the Hall of Prophecy that bypasses all of the other rooms Harry and friends went through.

That's a good question. Perhaps there's a more direct way to get to the Hall of Prophecy that bypasses all of the other rooms Harry and friends went through.
That's what I was thinking. The whole place seems like a big maze, but perhaps that was because Harry and Co. didn't know where they were going. It still seems like a very strange system-having to take people into the DoM to get their prophecy. However, it probably doesn't happen very frequently. Harry went for 15 years without even knowing that there had been a prophecy about him. And we could drive ourselves crazy thinking about what might have happened if Voldemort didn't know that the prophecy existed. Do you think the prophecies sit there forever, even long after the people about whom they were made are dead? Can someone else remove them later? Very interesting subject!

I'd imagine they couldn't keep all the prophesies ever made. It's said that only the people contained in the prophesy can remove the record, but as we know the records can be destroyed without any consequences but slight confusion. I think they may have a method of determining which prophesies are out of date. And since the spheres can be destroyed, maybe they just blast them.

Haha, that's really more my idea of what they should do, not my idea of what JKR would say.

Yeah, I agree, canismajoris! I think they must have some way of distinguishing out-of-date prophecies, but as you said, that is simply our opinion and not necessarily what JKR would say. I would imagine that most of the prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies are never collected by those to whom they pertain. I think Dumbledore said something about many of the prophecies never coming true. But you do make an interesting observation that they do not need to be removed-they can just be destroyed. I wonder if many prophecies have been destroyed before anyone knew about them? It is a very powerful position, if indeed the person in charge knows the content of all the prophecies-that person could simply destroy those prophecies that he/she did not want to come true.

Like Harry, many subjects of prophesies may not have even known that there was a prophecy made about them.

That raises a good point about prophesies. Voldemort made that prophesy come true by trying to fulfill it, but if he'd never heard of it, there's no way it could have played out that way.

I'd further like to add that by no account does the Keeper have to know what any of the prophesies contain. If an Unspeakable like Bode couldn't take one, why would any other DoM worker have access to that info?

yeah. And since they are keepers they are the only ones who can tell anybody (but they wont because they are top secret and know what could happen if they got loose.) Sorry i didn't write very much, i am tired already.

That raises a good point about prophesies. Voldemort made that prophesy come true by trying to fulfill it, but if he'd never heard of it, there's no way it could have played out that way.

I'd further like to add that by no account does the Keeper have to know what any of the prophesies contain. If an Unspeakable like Bode couldn't take one, why would any other DoM worker have access to that info?
I love the issue of whether or not the prophey would have come true if Voldemort hadn't found out about it-it's the central question of Macbeth. Such an interesting topic!

I agree that the Keeper doesn't have to know the content of the prophecy. Honestly, I'm not sure whether we can answer this question or not, though it certainly does raise some interesting questions.

I guess that the next question we need to ask is: if the keeper doesn't know the content, how does he/she know who it's about?

Also, we have no idea how the prophecies are recorded and archived. I wonder what would happen if no one heard a prophesy? I assume that it would still end up in the dept. of mysteries.

I was thinking about that earlier, Rell. I think there must be some sort of magical spell that records the prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies, maybe like the magical quill records the birth of a magical child? I don't think Dumbledore would have turned over that prophecy to the authorities on his own. The three witnesses were Dumbledore, Trelawney, and Snape. (and possibly also the bartender at Hog's Head, Aberforth Dumbledore) Trelawney doesn't remember, Dumbledore doesn't really believe in prophecies (as evidenced by his assertions to Harry that the prophecy only came true because Voldemort chose to act on it) and Snape was working for Voldemort (or Dumbledore, whichever you believe) so why would he give the information away to the MoM? I'm not sure how they got the information, but it seems to me that it must be by some magical means, since none of the involved parties seem likely to have given them the details of the prophecy.

You know, he mat have not known what the prophevy said, but who it involved. So when the whole scenario went down in Godric's hollow, he knew who to label the prophecy for. Another theory is that it is part of the duties of the unspeakables to learn, track, and prove/disprove prophecies!

You know, he mat have not known what the prophevy said, but who it involved. So when the whole scenario went down in Godric's hollow, he knew who to label the prophecy for. Another theory is that it is part of the duties of the unspeakables to learn, track, and prove/disprove prophecies!
That's an interesting idea that the Keeper might be in charge of determining whether or not a prophecy has come 'true'. I think the Keeper must have some idea of the prophecy's contents in order to label them (especially if it was a prophecy that needed extra studying or relabeling, such as the prophecy about Harry/Neville and Voldemort). But you make a very good point that the Keeper might be in charge of proving or disproving prophecies. What's everybody else's thoughts on the idea?

Thanks for the comment, Weaslytwin!

That's an interesting idea that the Keeper might be in charge of determining whether or not a prophecy has come 'true'. I think the Keeper must have some idea of the prophecy's contents in order to label them (especially if it was a prophecy that needed extra studying or relabeling, such as the prophecy about Harry/Neville and Voldemort). But you make a very good point that the Keeper might be in charge of proving or disproving prophecies. What's everybody else's thoughts on the idea?
That would seem like a pretty big job to have, but it seems that someone could do this. I wonder if the person that has this job is scared of what they do know.

I think it takes a strong w izard to handle this type of job, someone like Dumbledore. He never feared the unknown, he knew that it was our choices that affected our outcomes. I truly think that would br the job of a =n Unspeakable.

Actually the prophecy orb could only be touched by whoever it was about. That was the whole reason for tricking Harry into going to the DOM. Voldemort was not yet ready to show his face so Harry had to pick it up from the shelf. Remember Bode was an Unspeakable but he went crazy when he tried to get the prophecy. That is why Avery was punished for giving the wrong information. That is why Voldemort changed his tactics. So the Keeper of the prophecy was probably told by the listener in this case Dumbledore, what and who it was about. Maybe Dumbledore put the prophecy in the orb and the keeper only recorded it. And when Harry was attacked the Keeper just magically added his name.

Does the Keeper really need to know the contents of the prophecies in order to do his/her job? I mean, I know it seems like the person had knowledge of the prophecy, but on the other hand, doesn't Dumbledore specifically say in HBP that only two people alive knew the full contents of the prohphecy regarding Harry and Voldy? Obviously those people are Harry and Dumbledore, so that indicates to me that this Keeper of the Hall of Prophecies hasn't a clue what the prophecy is about. Dumbledore, in addition, seems to know who this person is, though he never mentions a name.

It seems like the prophecy system goes like this: Prophecies are made by seers. Then, somehow the fact that a prophecy has been made is transmitted to the Hall of Prophecies (who knows how), after which a prefabricated and probably heavily enchanted sphere encapsulates the contents of the prophecy. Finally, the parties involved in the prophecy are clearly marked and the final enchantment is sealed.

But I still don't see any of that necessarily meaning the Keeper has to know much of anything about the prophecies. First of all, let me ask, if Dumbledore just went to this guy and told him the contents of the prophecy, why was it that Prof. Trelawney appeared when the sphere smashed, and not Dumbledore repeating what she had said. All I can think of is that the record contains either a magical recording of the prophecy as it happened, or a memory extracted from a witness. Either way, I doubt anyone but the seer and witness could possibly know what was seen.

I think the problem is we're all looking at this like Muggles. The whole point of the protection surrounding these puppies is that they can be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, even well-meaning ones. That way, it's up to the people named to find out what their fates may be, or not. And even that doesn't seem like it's encouraged, considering the records are kept in a place that barely anybody knows exists.

My guess is that there's a magical mechanism for recording the prophecies automatically, and it may be that some prophecies have no labels because there were no witnesses to them, and it's also possible there are prophecies nobody can ever access because they don't pertain to specific people. The Keeper of the Hall would simply be responsible for issuing the protective spells around the records and keeping the labels updated, through a means that might also defy any real explanation.

I'd also like to point out that the Keeper only assumed Harry was the one prophesied about because Voldy tried to kill him. The prophecy is coming true because of and in spite of Voldemort's actions. Otherwise, that prophecy would sit there without a second name forever. Interestingly enough, he/she relabeled something (perhaps by hand) that had apparently been labeled before, so does that mean the spells protecting the record had to be reapplied? If so, that may be a time-consuming task, even if in fact there is an automatic notification system. But if the Keeper were expected to know the contents of each prophecy and keep up with every event in the whole magical world, the Hall of Prophecies would employ more wizards than there actually are in the country, so I think this must be automated, and the Keeper's job is to update the records where applicable.

We still have no idea what most of the prophecies say, it'd be weird to assume they're all about people. A prophecy like "on the even of the new moon, a quart of milk shall spill" would really only take up space, so maybe that kind of thing just gets ignored.

My only real dilemma is what Dumbledore says about all this. "The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child... It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring." That indicates this person DID know what was contained in the prophecy. But just because there was no name listed on the shelf originally doesn't mean the keeper didn't know generally who (born as the seventh month dies, blah blah) the prophecy referred to... but since you can hardly have two people both with exclusive access, it was left blank until something happened to indicate who specifically it should say.

The only other explanation for the relabeling is that this guy is just making it up as he goes along. But like, let's say there's only one prophecy regarding the Dark Lord, and the keeper probably knows (at the leaast) that the prophecy refers to a child who isn't born yet. Once Voldy tries to kill Harry, it would probably be a no-brainer to relabel the record accurately. That's all.

I didnt think the prophecy was actually written onthe chrystal I thought it was spoken, but a spell had to release it?

It must be part of the Keeper's job to some how put the prophecy into the orb, or something. I don't know how the Keeper would get it though. I know the ministry can detect magic, so they must have so process of getting the Prophecy contained into the orb when the Seer says it. Canismajoris, is this is what you think may happen when a Seer says a Prophcy in a nut shell?

maybe they do it like a pensieve? the prophecys appear and then they get transferred into the orbs via a wand

I don't know if you could do magic inside a pensive, maybe outside of it though.

Does the Keeper really need to know the contents of the prophecies in order to do his/her job? I mean, I know it seems like the person had knowledge of the prophecy, but on the other hand, doesn't Dumbledore specifically say in HBP that only two people alive knew the full contents of the prohphecy regarding Harry and Voldy? Obviously those people are Harry and Dumbledore, so that indicates to me that this Keeper of the Hall of Prophecies hasn't a clue what the prophecy is about. Dumbledore, in addition, seems to know who this person is, though he never mentions a name.
Maybe the wizard who was the keeper at the time has since died?

The only other explanation for the relabeling is that this guy is just making it up as he goes along. But like, let's say there's only one prophecy regarding the Dark Lord, and the keeper probably knows (at the leaast) that the prophecy refers to a child who isn't born yet. Once Voldy tries to kill Harry, it would probably be a no-brainer to relabel the record accurately. That's all.
How would he know that the prophecy is about defeating the dark lord?

Maybe the orbs are labeled by magic? Somehow the magic enchanting them knows who the prophecy is about and labels them accordingly-it could probably be done automatically with magic, rather than by having someone listen to the prophecies and physically label them. As Canismajoris pointed out, Dumbledore says that there are only two people that know the prophecy-himself and Harry. If I am remembering correctly, Dumbledore says that the prophecy was relabeled after Voldemort attacked Harry-he does not say that someone relabeled it, only that it was relabeled, which means that it may have been done by magic. Perhaps someone who has the book handy can check the quote. Does the book even say that there IS a Keeper of the Hall of Prophecies, or are we simply assuming? I don't remember.

Maybe the orbs are labeled by magic? Somehow the magic enchanting them knows who the prophecy is about and labels them accordingly-it could probably be done automatically with magic, rather than by having someone listen to the prophecies and physically label them.
Exactly what I was thinking. Why on earth do they need someone to keep track of this stuff? Hogwarts has a book that magically fills itself in with the name of every witch and wizard in the UK upon their birth. Why couldn't the Ministry have self-labeling prophecies if Hogwarts has a self-writing book? And no, Weasleytwin, I don't believe we were ever told that there was a Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy; we've just assumed (HP Lexicon has nothing on any Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy).

Yes there is a keeper of the Hall of Prophecy, it says so on page 842, American version, in chapter 37, The Lost Prophecy.

How would he know that the prophecy is about defeating the dark lord?

He wouldn't have to. If it's true he knew who the prophecy was referring to, it would have been "The Dark Lord and Mystery Child X". Since the prophecy was labeled "Dark Lord and (?)", after the Potters got killed, the keeper, knowing there was a prophecy about the Dark Lord and a child whose name wasn't mentioned, probably just assumed the prophecy was about the Dark Lord and Harry Potter.

See what I mean, even if Dumbledore specifically TOLD the guy who the prophecy was about, how could he himself have known until after Voldemort eventually tried to kill one of the two children? The guy must have made that determination on his own, which means he knows who prophecies refer to, but not what they say.

EDIT: There is most definitely a keeper of the Hall of Prophecies, Dumbledore refers to one, but what he doesn't say is whether or not this keeper is person: "It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy...." (that's page 842 American, fyi) He could be referring to a flying labelmaker that talks....

Yes there is a keeper of the Hall of Prophecy, it says so on page 842, American version, in chapter 37, The Lost Prophecy.
Oops, my mistake. You're right, Dumbledore specifically says that it seemed obvious to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that the prophecy was about Harry.

I still think it's rather stupid to have someone keeping track of all these things when it could be done magically, with no one person knowing so many things about other people. Although it doesn't actually say the keeper is a person...

Oops, my mistake. You're right, Dumbledore specifically says that it seemed obvious to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that the prophecy was about Harry.

I still think it's rather stupid to have someone keeping track of all these things when it could be done magically, with no one person knowing so many things about other people. Although it doesn't actually say the keeper is a person...
That is true, so maybe the keeper is a house elf. I wonder if the stuff the centars know would be kept some where though too.

I think that the prophecy is placed in the orb much the same way you extract memories from your head and place them in the pensieve. Since Dumbleodre waas most likely the one telling the keeper, it was his memory that was shared. Now, I think the spell for no one to touch the peophecies are placed on the orbs after the prophecy has been studied/recorded by the Keeper. That way, not just anyone can just walk iin and listen to the prophecies at random.

I'd further like to add that by no account does the Keeper have to know what any of the prophesies contain. If an Unspeakable like Bode couldn't take one, why would any other DoM worker have access to that info?In addition to that, if Bode knew what the full prophecy was, there'd be no reason for Voldemort to coerce Harry into going to the DoM and retrieving it. I don't think it was a coincidence that Bode was attacked by Death Eaters and then died at St Mungo's under unusual circumstances.

Bode may not have been the keeper though, I think that the keeper must know enough the prophecies to lable them properly. I think Dumbldore must know about the keeper, but Voldermont may not know about that job.

The keeper may not know the prophecy, but they have a general idea of what it contains.

this hasnt really been said, but i would guess that they do...

I still think that the Keeper is not a person (and thanks for the quote, canismajoris, I just couldn't remember and didn't have my book handy). But, as someone said above, he does not mention that the Keeper is a person. I still think that Dumbledore wouldn't have said that only two people know the contents of the prophecy if the Keeper knew the prophecy as well. So if the Keeper is a person, he/she must not know the contents of the prophecy.

Someone had a theory on RAB being a DoM employee a while back, but I don't think it was a very reasonable idea.Whoever it was that came up with the idea suggested that RAB might be Augustus Rookwood, but it is a bit of a stretch, since it would involve Rookwood signing his initials out of order and having another name that we don't know about. On the RAB issue, I am firmly in the Regulus Black camp.

It is an interesting idea that the centaurs' prophecies might be in the DoM. I would doubt it-they seem very reluctant to share any of their prophecies/divination methods.

That is true that the centars may not want to share their information with humans. What if any Prophecy, no matter who comes up with, it will magicly be stored into an orb though?

I still think that the Keeper is not a person (and thanks for the quote, canismajoris, I just couldn't remember and didn't have my book handy). But, as someone said above, he does not mention that the Keeper is a person. I still think that Dumbledore wouldn't have said that only two people know the contents of the prophecy if the Keeper knew the prophecy as well. So if the Keeper is a person, he/she must not know the contents of the prophecy.
Perhaps the keeper of the hall has since died, and only two living people still know the contents of the prophecy.

Wouldn't they still need a new Keeper of the Hall though? I think maybe the Keeper would have to know some of the Prophecy, or what it was about though for them to lable it properly.

Wouldn't they still need a new Keeper of the Hall though? I think maybe the Keeper would have to know some of the Prophecy, or what it was about though for them to lable it properly.
Yeah, but the new keeper might just know the contents of prophesies that he has to label. There was a whole room of prophesies, I wouldn't expect one person to know all of them.

So how many people would be working as the Keeper though, Dumbldore only says Keeper though, not Keepers. I can't even imagine how many Prophecies there are, let alone working with all of them.

Sorry, I wasn't clear:
I think that there's one keeper, who knows the prophecies as they come in and labels them, or when he has to relable them. But that a new keeper wouldn't go back and learn all past prophecies.
There's really no canon supporting any of this, but I think it's a simple way to justify the fact that only two people know the prophecy.

Oh, ok I see what you are saying, wow that would be a big job. I would hate know some of the stuff they would.

Oh, ok I see what you are saying, wow that would be a big job. I would hate know some of the stuff they would.
Yeah, I'd imagine that it would be depressing, knowing that tragedy would happen and expecting it.
They probably wouldn't be allowed to talk about the prophecies with anyone either.

That is why I hate whatching the Titanic, I hate knowing what is going to happen. They must know some good stuff though, I mean all Prophecys cant be bad can they?

I don't think that the keeper knows the prophecy.., just who said it to whom or something like that... because there are way too many prophecies in that hall

Well, it wasw obvious that the darklord wanted Bode for some reason, and that was why he was attacked in the DoM. Now, I think we can safely assume it was something directly linked to the prophecy. It seems odd that we see a vision of Voldt punishing Rookwood for false information about Bode. Then, someone goes to the trouble of killing Bode in the hospital. Since Bode was an unspeakable, he may have been given the task of being the Keeper, just a thought.

Well we don't know what Bode did though, he was an unspeakable or what ever, so he could be the Keeper. I think we found out that he was put under the Imperious curse, and forced to try and take the Prophecy. He was sent to St. Mungo's because the only people who can take the Prophecy are the people that it is labled for. If it is not labled for you and you try to take it you go insaine, which happened to Bode. Bode started to get better and so someone sent him devils snare which killed him. I think if Bode was the Keeper, and Voldermont or his Death Eaters did not know it. If Bode was the Keeper and Voldermont new I think he could of used Legamincy to find out what the Prophecy said. Does this make scense?

Yes, Bode was put under the Imperius Curse and ordered to take the prophecy. That was before Voldemort knew that the only people who could take the prophecy are those that it is about. But Bode was killed by Devil's Snare before Rookwood escaped from Azkaban (it was Rookwood, a former DoM employee, that told Voldemort that he or Harry needed to pick up the prophecy). So they killed Bode before they knew he couldn't take the prophecy.

Theoretically, if the Keeper does know the prophecies, I don't see why Voldemort couldn't use Legilimency to find out. But he would need to capture the Keeper in order to do this. The only reason Legilimency works between Harry and Voldemort when they are apart from each other is because they are connected through the scar and failed Avada Kedavra curse.

Yes, Bode was put under the Imperius Curse and ordered to take the prophecy. That was before Voldemort knew that the only people who could take the prophecy are those that it is about. But Bode was killed by Devil's Snare before Rookwood escaped from Azkaban (it was Rookwood, a former DoM employee, that told Voldemort that he or Harry needed to pick up the prophecy). So they killed Bode before they knew he couldn't take the prophecy.

Theoretically, if the Keeper does know the prophecies, I don't see why Voldemort couldn't use Legilimency to find out. But he would need to capture the Keeper in order to do this. The only reason Legilimency works between Harry and Voldemort when they are apart from each other is because they are connected through the scar and failed Avada Kedavra curse.

All that stuff would seem to be necessary before they had all the info. They kill Bode for the simple reason that he failed, and he may be able to testify that he was under the Imperius curse. But after they talk to Rookwood, it seems like they know the only way to get the contents of the prophecy is through Harry. If Rookwood knows there's a person who knows the contents of the prophecy, he'd certainly mention it, and Voldemort would've pursued that line of thought.

So I think since nobody made any effort to capture the keeper, that 1) the Keeper doesn't know the contents of the prophecies, or 2) there's a different keeper now who wouldn't know anything about the prophecy anyway.

My question is really this, if Voldemort thought just anyone could take and peruse the contents of the prophecies, didn't he think that someone else might know what it said anyway? I guess the trick would be to investigate that from the inside, but that's risky for several different reasons. For example, does Voldy know that Dumbledore witnessed the prophecy, and that Trelawney made it? I know that particular information wasn't much use to him when Dumbledore was at Hogwarts, but if he does know, shouldn't we hear about Trelawney's abduction soon? (I mean, Snape knows all about that, doesn't he... If Trelawney herself knows Snape was eavesdropping, Snape probably knows exactly who he was eavesdropping on.)

I can't help concluding that Voldemort would've certainly exhausted the angle of the Keeper, and since we haven't heard of one except from Dumbledore, maybe it's a dead end for the bad guys, and that makes it a dead end for us.

And in HBP Dumbledore says that Harry and him were the only two people who knew the full contents of the prophesy. If thats the case, than someone like the keeper of the hall of prophecy might only have a vague idea or none at all.
I think that Dumbledore told the keeper just who was involved and a summary of the prophecy.

Does the Keeper know more then Voldermont though?

Ok I was reading HBP, the part where we see the memory about the Horcruxes from Slughorn, and Harry and Dumbldore have that discussion after word. I cam across a part where Dumbldore says that all of the Prophcys can not be right or fulfilled. I also wonder if the Propchecy that Harry heard from Trelawney said during PoA was also recorded?

That is a great question, scd! Are prophecies monitored like the use of magic? Is there some signal or way to pick up on a prophecy so that it is recorded? Or do either the speaker of the prophecy or the person who heard it have to report it to the Ministry for record?

I think that is must be monitered some how by the Ministry though, like magic is. They must have some way of collecting the Prophecys though.

I think that is must be monitered some how by the Ministry though, like magic is. They must have some way of collecting the Prophecys though.
There's no other explanation that I can think of. But it's a lot different from underage magic detection, which seems to be very unspecific. A prophecy is reclaimed in its entirety, with an image of the seer, and documentation concerning who it's referring to.

I wonder if Voldermont would want to get the Prophecy that was made in PoA too, luckly no Death Eaters (that we know of) heard it.

I wonder if Voldermont would want to get the Prophecy that was made in PoA too, luckly no Death Eaters (that we know of) heard it.
It seems to have been fulfilled, but since only Harry knows about it anyway, I doubt it makes much of a difference.

It would be a really big problem if the keeper himself was infiltrated by Voldemort.

It seems to have been fulfilled, but since only Harry knows about it anyway, I doubt it makes much of a difference.

It would be a really big problem if the keeper himself was infiltrated by Voldemort.
Yea I hope that Voldermont would not find the Keeper, or the Keeper was a death eater. I don't think that the Pophecy in PoA has been fulfilled though, since I don't think Voldermont has not gotten worse since the last time he was at the hight of his power, you know what I mean? Didn't he tell Dumbldore, Ron, and Hermione about the Prohecy he had heard in PoA though, so they know about it too.

Yea I hope that Voldermont would not find the Keeper, or the Keeper was a death eater. I don't think that the Pophecy in PoA has been fulfilled though, since I don't think Voldermont has not gotten worse since the last time he was at the hight of his power, you know what I mean? Didn't he tell Dumbldore, Ron, and Hermione about the Prohecy he had heard in PoA though, so they know about it too.
Could you explain about the PoA prophecy again, I'm not sure I follow you.

I doubt that the current keeper is a death eater - otherwise, Voldemort would have gotten his information from him, instead of from Avery and Rookwood.

Ok the first part of the Prophecy in PoA it says that Voldermont will have help from his serevent, aka Peter, to reagain his body, which has been fulfilled. Then it goes on to say that 'greater and more terrible than ever he was.' My thought was that Voldermont will get a lot worse in the 7th book before Harry will kill him, since he is not at the hight of his power yet.

I suspect there may have been a change in who the Keeper of the Hall is. The one who relabelled the prophecy could have died in the intervening years. The new one would not be privy to the full contents, would s/he?

How the orbs appear in the Hall...I think we can only speculate. It's possible that it has to be reported/recorded from someone who heard it. It's also possible that the Keeper of the Hall never knew its full contents, but merely labeled it according to the direction of the person leaving the recording. (In which case Albus would have had to relay to the Keeper that Harry was the likely subject of that prophecy after the events at Godric's Hollow.)

I'm guessing that the newest Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy would be Boderick Bode. He was the one that was Imperiused to take the prophecy, and the one that the Death Eaters killed.
"Avery told me Bode would be able to remove it."
"Bode could never have taken it, Master....Bode would have known he could not....Undboubtedly that is why he fought so hard against Malfoy's Imperius Curse..."
From all of the mentions of Bode and the Hall of Prophecy it seems almost certain that Bode was the current Keeper of the Hall.

That raises a good point about prophesies. Voldemort made that prophesy come true by trying to fulfill it, but if he'd never heard of it, there's no way it could have played out that way.


Exactly. He took it upon himself to make it come true. As for the Keeper, I wonder if that person has a pensieve in which he/she could keep all the information about the prophecies, if he/she does in fact know what they prophecies say.

Disclaimer: Take it off if its already been thought of, or relocate it, but please send me an owl, if at all possible... I worry. :p "


(Harry Potter Lexicon, 2006

"The prophecy is on row 97, and you "can't see (the row's end) properly," p778"

"the numbers go up as you go right")

Now, Heres what I realised.

Harrys prophecy is on the same row 97, as the last year in the series 1997. Coincidence? Duh.
Heres a theory, the shelves in the Hall of Prophecy, which are numbered, are numberd by the years they are completed in. Now I have a thought of how that could be, but its not fully developed.

As it was pointed out to me, in the thread 'Kepper of the Hall of Prophecy', it was speculated about how the prophecys end up in the Hall of prophecy. So it made me wonder how it was that the ministry came to be in the possesion of the prophecy, all of the prophecys for that matter, in the first place?

My Answer: some one who had something to do with the prophecy, knew it, ect, gave it to them. How else? (any one, feel free to elaborate on this point) Addition: Ok, I read something from the thread 'Kepper of the Hall of Prophecy'

I was thinking about that earlier, Rell. I think there must be some sort of magical spell that records the prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies, maybe like the magical quill records the birth of a magical child? I don't think Dumbledore would have turned over that prophecy to the authorities on his own. The three witnesses were Dumbledore, Trelawney, and Snape. (and possibly also the bartender at Hog's Head, Aberforth Dumbledore) Trelawney doesn't remember, Dumbledore doesn't really believe in prophecies (as evidenced by his assertions to Harry that the prophecy only came true because Voldemort chose to act on it) and Snape was working for Voldemort (or Dumbledore, whichever you believe) so why would he give the information away to the MoM? I'm not sure how they got the information, but it seems to me that it must be by some magical means, since none of the involved parties seem likely to have given them the details of the prophecy.

I dont think, that the prophecys just some how magicly appear there, they are memories of the prophecy.That is to say, the prophecys, are clearly memories bottled up, and stored in the department of ministries. Its clear they are memories, because they are most exactly like the bottled memories Dumbledore showed to Harry. Now why would Dumbledore, or any one else for that matter just give the memories of the prophecies to the DOM? Probobly because they were people like Trelawney, and if they could remember the prophecy...unlike Trelawney, then they too, like Trelawney would have felt it there duty to make sure the prophecy was documented. And realy, I bet most people around the DOM, propbobly thought those people and their prophecies were a bunch of hogwash, but most of the prople are like the people that insist they see UFO's. They report what they see, and History, or in the case of Harry Potter, the DOM, takes note of it. Now wether they realy believe it or not is a different story.

So, I think its safe to say that the prophecies that are shelved in the HOP, were reported by people, that is wizardings, that were involved with those prophecies felt compeled to report their experience.. and that is where these glass orbs, filled with the memory of a propecy, came from.

"Unfortunately, when they reach the end of the row, he and his friends discover that Sirius is not there, nor is there any sign that anyone has been there in a long time. Moments later, Ron discovers that one of the glass orbs, in fact, is labeled with Harry’s name. The label reads: “S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. / Dark Lord/ and (?) Harry Potter” ( wikipedia, online free encyclopedia)

In that case some one involved S.P.T. or A.P.W.B.D. or the Dark Lord, and (?) or Harry Potter , went to the ministry and turned the prophecy over. Whichever, I think we can rule out the Dark Lord. Whichever did do, did so..So that some one could find it, and hear it. I think Dumbledore turned the prophecy in. He reported it, but not so that the public might find it so that Harry might find it.

I think its a legality that only persons involved with the prophecy can retrieve it, so as to protect their privacy rights. Either that, or Dumbledore made it a legality, in regards to the prophecy he was giving them, he had the 'Kepper of the Hall of Prophecy' make it so, that only the person, or persons, that Dumbledore named could retrieve the prophecy. The person Dumbledore would have named, is Harry.


Theory A: The one the prophecy was made to, Dumbledore. “S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. / Dark Lord/ and (?) Harry Potter” A.P.W.B.D., being the one the prophecy was made to, went to the department of mysteries and gave them the prophecy, but why you ask?

Perhaps there is a rule, that if a prophecy is made and you were involved that you are supposed to turn it in to the DOM?

"Now why would Dumbledore, or any one else for that matter just give these prophecies to the ministry. Probobly because they were people like Trelawney, and if they could remember the prophecy...unlike Trelawney, then they too, like Trelawney would have felt it there duty to make sure the prophecy was documented."

Even if there was a rule, or if people only give the prophecies to the DOM of their own ffree will, Dumbledore would have told the rules to jump off the London bridge, and he wouldnt have put much stock in the prophecy and wouldnt have documented it, unless he believed the prophecy was ligitament, but then, he would have wanted to keep it hidden for Harry's own good..Unless he thought there was a good reason for the prophecy to be documented. In which case, he would have made it to where the prophecy coul donly be retrieved on certain terms. After all, why didnt voldemort go get it him self? Because Dumbledore made it a magical legal clause, that Voldemort couldnt retrieve it.

What could have been Dumbledores reason for making known (sort of), or documenting the prophecy?

Answer: Dumbledore,the only reason he would have botherd documenting the prophecy would have been after it had ,in part, come true. Matter of factly, I think Dumbledore was bound and determined to keep the prophecy from anyone, perhaps enough to fix Trelawneys memory of it.
But unfortunatly, it got out, via Snape to Voldemort. Dumbledore thus, thinking 'ok..Blast.. Voldemorts a lunatic, hes going to be an idiot and act on this thing, therefore, couples who have thrice defied Voldemort should hide... The Potters should go into hideing,' Was it not Dumbledore who convinced them to? Dumbledore thought, if no one ever gets marked, then theres still time for anyone to stop Voldemort, before he makes the prophecy come true.

Then, The Potter's were murderd and Harry was marked as voldemorts equal by his scar. Dumbledore would have thought, ok, drats.. Unfortunatly, Voldemort abided by the blasted prophecy, and Harry has been made 'the one with the power to vanquish' Voldemort. Now, heres where it gets sticky.

"Dumbledore would have told the rules to jump off the London bridge, unless he thought there was a good reason for the prophecy to be documented."

Dumbledore would have realised that Harry, wether any one liked it or not, was the only one who could vanquish Voldemort. And wether he was or he wasnt the only one, Voldemort would surely have a vendetta against Harry, and thus he truly could never lead a safe life, whilst voldemort survives, Harry would always half to look over his shoulder to see if Voldemort was there.

Dumbledore would have only went to the ministry and gave them the memory of the prophecy, because he felt Harry would need to know. Dumbledore said it himself, he had debated with himself for years, when to tell Harry. He thought about it, when Harry was in his first year at hogwarts, but talked him self out of it, on account that Harry was much to young.

Again, as each year passed he thought of telling Harry, but not wanting to burden Harry, he talked himself out of it each time. But with Sirius' death, He finnaly realized he had to.

Now, I think, the reason Dumbledore would have went to the hall of prophecy and hand over the prophecy, or have it put on record, is because, he was old. He wished to insure, that if he died.. by natural causes, or in a battle, Harry might be able to still find out. Matter of factly, I think that Dumbledore had it worked out with the 'Kepper of the Hall of Prophecy' that, he,the keeper, should only notify Harry of the Prophecies existance, once Dumbledore had died, otherwise, Dumbledore was going to do it himself. the keeper notifying Harry of it, was just a back up plan for if Dumbledore died before he could tell him.

The only other options are Sybil, or Harry... Or a magical means of some sort. But quite honestly, even prophecies that are made in real life, are documented, reported, and written down. Some one has to speak it out...put it out there. I dont think Jo would do something so cheesy as to have 'all prophecies magicly known by the ministry' in her world. The ministry doesnt neccicarily always know when a crime is commited. I mean, take the example of why the ministry assumed it was Harry doing magic in the pressence of muggles, when it was realy Dobby? They didnt realy know who had done it, they just assumed, because Harry was the only wizard in the area. Its a flawed system.

But just to cover the options;

Option B: Sybil P. Trelawney
Well, heres the point for Sybill, She did make the prophecy. But, She has no memory of it, so how could she have told the ministy, but she remembers certain parts of that night, she just doesnt rememeber the prophecy its self. Perhaps she went to the ministry, devulged the prophecy to them, they inturn fixed her memory. Plausable, but unlikely.
Because then you half to wonder, why is it that Harrys name is on it, she wouldnt have had a clue as to it being about Harry.

To me its clear, Dumbledore went to the ministry and took his memory of trelawney giving the prophecy, placed it in one of the glass orbs, and in legal agreament with the department of mysteries, had spells put on it, so as that it could only be lifted by the one the prophecy partained to, or more directly only picked up by Dumbledore or Harry. (Or why wouldnt have Voldemort gone after the prophecy himself? He clearly had been in the DOM, went to go get the prophecy but couldnt, thus voldemort had to trick harry into doing it for him, which is why Harry had dreams of how to get there, because voldemort had been there. ) Dumbledore had the prophecy documented, incase he died, or was kept from passing on the information of the prophecy to Harry. That's why he had Harrys name put on the prophecy, so if in the future Dumbldore was incapable of sharing the information, Harry could find it, and realise what he had to do, vaquish the dark lord.

You see though, the prophecy of Harrys, in the Hall of Prophecy, was infact dumbledores memory of the prophecy, and by his own admition, only He, Sybil, and Harry know the prophecy's exact contents.. Snape and Voldemort knew part of it. That means not even anyone at the DOM knew what the prophecy said. They only knew it was there. The reason no one at the ministry got to see or hear what it was, is because Dumbledore had an orb in hand, put his wand to his head took the memory, as a long silvery strand and placed it into the orb, where it swirled inside.. After that, no one but he, or Harry could touch it. Matter of factly, he would have been the one to set it on the shelf.

On another related note,
Im for the theory that some of Dumbledores memorys managed to make it into some sort of storage, to help Harry realise something else. (What realy made me think of that was a winner, of a mugglenet contest,' version of the opening chapters of book seven).

:scared: least wise, thats what I think. *shuffles feet nervously..*

.. :p

You might find what you are interested in, in the following thread

Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=85386)

Thank you mysterious, Ive made some changes...

So I guess, what will happen with this page will happen.

Right now, I think Ill go complain to the writer about how long that first post is. Oh wait I cant do that, I wrote it. :grumble:


:p

Thank you mysterious, Ive made some changes...

So I guess, what will happen with this page will happen.

Right now, I think Ill go complain to the writer about how long that first post is. Oh wait I cant do that, I wrote it. :grumble:
:p

Aw, it's okay. Just copy and paste it into the linked thread. ;)

Realy though, it wasnt a question about the Hall of Prophecy, its a whole long drawn out theory about how Dumbledore was the one who turned in the prophecy.

Each prophecy isa form of magic and they obviously have a way to perserve that little bit of magic in the orbs, until they are needed.

Did the usual search, yada yada, del or merge if needed.

In HBP DD tells Harry that only the 2 of them present in the broom shed know the entire prophecy. But in OotP, when explaining the prophecy to Harry, DD's reply to why his name(Harry's) was on the official record of the prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy's, was that the keeper of the Hall relabeled the prophecy to include Harry's name. Since after LV attacked Harry it was obvious to him (the keeper) that Harry was the boy mentioned in the prophecy.(OotP Page 742, Canadian version)

Seems like a rather strange thing to do unless, the Keeper of the hall of prophecy was able to know the whole prophecy. Or since he is the Keeper of the HoP, he is able to listen to or hear the records of the prophecy's contained in the Hall. All the same, in order to know enough of the prophecy to be able to guess it was Harry it was referring to, would require a deep understanding of the most important parts of the prophecy.

My question to you all is; Why if there is a Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy's, would LV not just capture and him to get the information he needed about the prophecy? Once LV talked to Rockwood and learned that the prophecy's are heavily guarded and can only be removed by those who they concern,(Harry or LV in this case) Would he not just go after the Keeper? Rockwood must have known who the unspeakable in charge of the HoP was.(ie the Keeper). It seems to me the most obvious and simplest way to get the information.

Because it was initialed and not the whole name of the people, maybe DD just told the 'keeper' to put H.P on it without telling him what H.P stands for, so he wouldn't know who it concerns or what it is! Remember, DD would have told this 15 years before from the time we found out about it, and remember at that time DD was HUGE in the ministry and people would be bowing at his feet, so he could tell them anything and they would do it straight away, or at least he would tell fudge. I am sure there is more than one person with the initials H.P in the Magical world!!!:):)

hmmm that's an interesting question, maybe the keeper knew the basics of the prophecy, that Voldemort would mark a boy born in July as his equal, I think that with knowing of Voldemort's dissappearance after his attack on Harry and that Harry had a lightening bolt scar this would be enough information to label the prophecy correctly. I think we can safely dismiss it being that Dumbledore told the keeper, because it seems from what he said that the keeper had worked out the correct labelling himself.

The other option I can see is that the keeper did know the contents of the prophecy, but know he is dead, and possibly that Voldemort had gone after him, but hadn't found out what he needed. In which case Dumbledore and Trelawney would be the only surviving people to know the contents of the prophect (although Trelawney doesn't actually remember it)

The other option I can see is that the keeper did know the contents of the prophecy, but know he is dead, and possibly that Voldemort had gone after him, but hadn't found out what he needed. In which case Dumbledore and Trelawney would be the only surviving people to know the contents of the prophect (although Trelawney doesn't actually remember it)Now that you mentioned it, I wonder if Voldemort did try to get the Prophecy before he attacked at Godric's Hollow. Maybe the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy was a member of the original Order...one from the photo that Moody showed to Harry at Grimmauld Place. Could have been Marlene McKinnon or one of her family members, Benjy Fenwick, Edgar Bones or one of his family members, Caradoc Dearborn, or Gideon or Fabian Prewett (Molly's brothers). Or maybe Dorcas Meadowes, since Voldemort killed her personally. Here is the quote of Moody talking about the photo:
<snip> "There's me," said Moody unnecessarily, pointing at himself <snip> "And there's Dumbledore beside me, Dedalus Diggle on the other side...That's Marlene McKinnon, she was killed two weeks after this was taken, they got her whole family. That's Frank and Alice Longbottom ~ " <snip> ...and that's Emmeline Vance, you've met her, and that there's Lupin, obviously...Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too, we only ever found bits of him...<snip>
"That's Edgar Bones...brother of Amelia Bones, they got him and his family too, he was a great wizard...Sturgis Podmore, blimey, he looks young...Caradoc Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body...Hagrid, of course, looks exactly the same as ever...Elphias Doge, you've met him, I'd forgotten he used to wear that stupid hat...Gideon Prewett, it took five Death Eaters to kill him and his brother Fabian, they fought like heroes... <snip>
"That's Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke...That's Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally...Sirius, when he still had short hair...and...there you go, thought that would interest you!"
Harry's heart turned over. His mother and father were beaming up at him, sitting on either side of a small, watery-eyed man Harry recognized at once as Wormtail: <snip>

Now that you mentioned it, I wonder if Voldemort did try to get the Prophecy before he attacked at Godric's Hollow.
This is actually quite a good suggestion. Voldemort did murder many people personally, and where are the explanations? Voldemort may have believed each of those was the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy (or at least knew about the prophecy) and, when they did not know/did not reveal the information, he killed them. It is also plausible that he did kill a possible Keeper and just had other reasons for killing the others.

I think that it is also possible that Dumbledore told the Keeper about who were the possible candidates that the Prophecy spoke of (directly after Trelawney gave it), and after Voldemort attempted to kill Harry, the Keeper would have seen it fit to change the names that the Prophecy concerned.

This is actually quite a good suggestion. Voldemort did murder many people personally, and where are the explanations? Voldemort may have believed each of those was the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy (or at least knew about the prophecy) and, when they did not know/did not reveal the information, he killed them. It is also plausible that he did kill a possible Keeper and just had other reasons for killing the others.

I think that it is also possible that Dumbledore told the Keeper about who were the possible candidates that the Prophecy spoke of (directly after Trelawney gave it), and after Voldemort attempted to kill Harry, the Keeper would have seen it fit to change the names that the Prophecy concerned.

You also may want to look at this thread: Questions about the Hall of Prophecy (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=85386&highlight=hall), which discusses the same topic (for the most part).

I like that idea, of course then the keeper probably wouldn';t need to know anythinabout the prophecy except the names

I agree with Lucybird that the Keeper may well be dead by the time Dumbledore tells Harry that everyone who knows the full Prophecy is in the Weasleys' shed. Perhaps Voldemort killed the Keeper or maybe the Keeper just died; the Prophecy was given in 1979-80 and that was about years before this conversation between H and D.

I think that this is a great question. Though we don't know who the Keeper is as the are all unspeakables, this strikes me somewhat convienient, something fishy?

Another thought crossed my mind as i read the posts, why when Dumbledore went to all the trouble of hiding the prophecy from Voldemort would he want to keep a record of it. Is his memory not enough? Does this smell like a trap?

Or mabye DD was the keeper of the hall of prophecy? LOL, jk, that's really far fetched.

Nah, my guess is that the keeper of the hall of prophecy knows the jist, or the whole of all the prophecys, but somehow cannot go bandying them about to everyone, probably some kind of enchantment.

I think the keeper knows who the prophecy is about, but not what it is.

Is it possible that the Keeper of the Hall of prophecy isn't even a person? Maybe its just some magical object, like the goblet of fire? That way, it could know about all the prophecies yet, not get involved in them.

Hi. Maybe the keeper is some type of an object, similar to a huge computer, but in a magical way. ;)

:tu: I don't know who to quote first, all these ideas are so tantilising.:tu:

As reguards the prophecy that Harry retrieved, do we even know what was in it? Was it the whole prophecy or some other version. With the diappearance of Trelawney I would sugest that it reflected the memory that Trelawney remembers. As i said before things are fishy. Visit the site on Trelawney's memory.

I wonder if prophecies and those who give them will have a large role in DH.

On the inside back flap of the UK children's cover of DH there is a crystal ball with stars and a snake inside. Crystal balls are often associated with divination and oracles. Interestingly, many of the oracles in Greek stories are associated with snakes.

Loxias is the name for Apollo (the deity of the sun) in his role as oracle. A famous story about Loxias is how King Cadmus founded Thebes as per the instrucitions of Loxias and later he and his wife were turned into snakes after Camdus killed a snake.

Melampus was an oracle who, when he spared the lives of two snakes, was given the gift to speak with animals by the snakes.

Tiresias was an oracle who was transformed into a woman when he bothered two snakes. When Tiresias later saw two snakes and left them alone, he was returned to being a man.