Spinner's End #16 - Wormtail's Secret [Archive]

Perman

March 18th, 2006, 11:53 am

Many unclarities surrounding this issue and I'm not sure I believe JKR will make it coherent. For instance, what happens when the house explodes (or however it was destroyed)? Will it do so in silence? If the explosion is big enough will it affect nearby trees for instance since in a way the tree isn't next to it as it isn't there.

Also, who's to say that there isn't a way Wormtail can just divulge the information generally? I mean, without telling anyone, there could be a way of just making that information public in some way we do not know of?
For instance, if that is a possibility, it is not inconceivable that Lily asked Wormtail for that one thing if he was there. And if Wormtail heard that last dying request in the moment were he felt like the biggest heap of **** in the world, if he could, I think he would.

Sirius accuses him of looking for big friends to protect him - people who are likely to win - and of putting self-preservation ahead of honor. Will Wormtail ever live up to the Sorting Hat's assessment of him? I cannot believe that the Sorting Hat would be so absolutely wrong as it currently seems about a student's placement.

I don't agree with that. Using others to further your own means is cowardly compared to sacrificing yourself for that task. However, it doesn't make you a coward, it just says something about your morality. For instance, you can find many brave Slytherins, because morality has nothing to do with bravery. Just because he's a dirtbag doesn't mean he's a coward. I reckon this is comparable to Neville's courage. For instance, Neville isn't courageous in normal day life, standing up for himself and all that. However, he is courageous when it matters. Wormtail however, he is courageous in the sence that he will do anything, AND I MEAN ANYTHING, so long as he has backing. He went risking expulsion with James and Sirius while prowling around at school all the time, and this is an instance were having backing doesn't matter, he still would have been expelled.
He is kind of the opposite of Neville. He will do anything for fun, but when it really matters, so far he has done what's most likely to keep him alive, and not the right thing.
It just goes to show that there are many types of bravery, and perhaps he lacks the right kind.

I reckon people ought to read http://www.redhen-publications.com/Pettigrew.html if they want to gain understanding about this character.

Dania

March 18th, 2006, 12:18 pm

Wonderful editorial, Lady Lupin! As always!

You're right, what we know about what happened the day the Potters were killed raises a lot of questions. But about Hagrid being able to go there in PS/SS, and Harry too, in book 7, I've always thought that the explosion that followed Voldemort's backfiring killing curse made the Fidelius Charm stop working. Either because the explosion was very unusual (Avada Kedavra had never backfired like that before) or because a killing curse had hit (though not killed) all three persons protected by the Charm. It seems logical that the Charm would stop working when the persons protected by it were killed. And even if Harry didn't die, he was hit by the Avada Kedavra, and he should have died. So the Charm probably just "assumed" that since all the persons protected by it were hit by a killing curse, it wasn't necessary anymore.

MmeBergerac

March 18th, 2006, 12:41 pm

You've been wonderful again, Lady Lupin.

It's true, the only way of delivering the location of the Potters without beeing known as Secret Keeper is writing, and I dare say that the notes were made faking Sirius' writing,this probably suggested by Sirius himself to support the belief that he was SK. I'm not a fan of graphology, but I must agree that very often one's personality is somehow reflected in his writing. If it is so, I'm sure that Sirius' and Wormtail's would have been so different that nobody who knew them both could have mistaken them. And Dumbledore knew them quite well (or that he thought).

Number of copies of the location: One. I don't think Lupin knew where his friends were. Let's remember that scene in the Shrieking Shack:

"Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head.
"Forgive me, Remus", said Black.

Obviusly, if they thought Lupin a traitor they would not tell him, at least at first. Let's remember, however, that, as Fudge told Madam Rosmerta in PoA, the Potters were killed less than a week after performing the charm, so they had not much time to tell nothing to anyone. If you want to hide, you first disappear and after a while perhaps begin to communicate with your friends.

Where was that piece of paper? Hided. Perhaps in a vault in Gringotts, with the PS. Why? Dumbledore would haven't risked this copy been stolen or lost. But if Sirius (supposed SK) was going to hide himself, they'd neeed another way to find the Potters in an emergency. So, during that lost day, Dumbledore would have been to Gringotts, taken the note and showed to Hagrid, or sent Hagrid himself to take the note, read it, and leave for Godric's Hollow. And, later, he sent it to Petunia, or kept it himself, in case it was necessary.

Snape. He had told Vold about the prophecy. He had to know that Wormtail was the spy. Perhaps he overheard, or eavesdropped Wormtail telling Vold the Potters whereabouts and followed them. He saw everything (hidden somewhere) and... Lady Lupin wonders if he would have left baby Harry there.
1) He doesn't see Harry is alive. He goes to Dumbledore and says: Vold went there and the house has blown up. Dumbledore sends Hagrid at once, for if someone was still alive. But what reason had he to thik someone could be alive after such an explosion? Er... not.
2) He sees Harry alive. Vold has evaporated. He's a DE. But he's DD's agent, too. Taking the baby to Dumbledore would be as shouting "I'm a traitor", and then all DE would be after him. So he goes to Dumbledore and tells Harry is alive. Dumbledore sends Hagrid, etc. He has secured by this DD's protection towards him, but can be still ambiguous enough to avoid DE's suspictions. I like it.

But he let Sirius go to Azkaban! Of course he did. Perhaps he didn't tell Dumbledore about Wormtail foreseeing Sirius would be accused. Sirius was innocent of betraying the Potters, but, for Snape, he was still guilty of attempted murder, for that idiot joke when he almost made him eaten by Lupin. Snape would think that Sirius had what he deserved, some years delayed.

DD's and Hagrid's suspictions. Lady Lupin doesn't think Hagrid would have borrowed Sirius' motorcycle if he had suspected him. True. But if Hagrid was shown a piece of paper and he didn't know who wrote it he had no reason to suspect and would have taken it as it was: the best friend of the Potters trying to help. Till a couple of days later he wouldn't "know" about Sirius' guilt.

Dumbledore... Again thinking the best of everybody? Or perhaps in that moment he didn't suspect Sirius? He could have thought, in those first confusing moments, that someone had intercepted one of the papers with the information, if he didn't know how many they were. Till that talking with Hagrid he could have tought Sirius dead and then beginning to suspect, but he didn't want to say anything before having proof (fair, gentlemanlike and Griffindorish behaviour), and pretended before hagrid and McG. Or perhaps he had been too busy all day to think of suspects, for, in spite of what he told McG, I'm sure he wasn't feasting or celebrating at all, but working hard: taking little Harry, evoking that magical protection for him, avoiding interferences from the Ministry, keeping Snape hidden, writing Aunt Petunia's letter... Let's don't forget, however, that the last and definitive proof against Sirius was Wormtail shouting 'Lily and James, Sirius! How could you?' before he "died".
We have learnt about all this thing many years later and think everything is clear, but, in the moment it was happening, it would be an absolute mess!

tinabell

March 18th, 2006, 1:03 pm

I had a couple of thoughts after reading the editorial, but both fail the follow thru test. I also thought that maybe the secret was "The Potters are in hiding at Godrics Hollow"...which would mean that the secret wasn't where Godrics Hollow is, but that that's where the Potters were hiding. I first thought that once the Potters were killed, they technically were no longer hiding and the secret "died". However, Harry is a Potter, too. So, as long as Harry was still alive, the secret should have stayed "hidden". If that was the case, then no one would be able to retrieve Harry unless the secret of where he was hiding was revealed to them. I don't buy the theory that Peter wrote notes to be distributed to the Potters friends. If that was the case, why have a secret keeper at all? Defeats the purpose.

My next theory was that Snape was present at Godrics Hollow the night the Potters were killed. Peter reveals the hiding place to Voldemort. Snape is the one to hear the prophesy after all, so maybe Voldemort has Peter tell Snape as well so he can "tag along". I thought, could this be the time that Snape is having second thoughts? He does owe James a life debt after all. If Peter used a note to tell Snape the Potters hiding place, it would be possible that the note was not destroyed and he took it to Dumbledore. While I lilke the idea that Snape may have tried to save James's life, it wouldn't explain how Sirius and Hagrid knew to go to Godrics Hollow. Also doesn't explain why Dumbledore didn't immediately suspect Sirius of betrayal if he thought Sirius was the secret keeper. Every time I think I found an explanation, I circle back around...

I fear that this is going to be one of those things that Jo comes out and says, "Oops, you readers are too smart for me. Didn't think of that" or something to that effect.

There is probably nothing to it. Drats.

alexandervander

March 18th, 2006, 1:18 pm

3

Disclamer: I mean all of the following to be complementary. Sorry this is not edited.

Here, again, is a original idea that I had not though of. So many times when I read the HP books I can also hear hannibal lecter's voice in my ear "you looked but did not see, all you need to figure it out is in those pages." I get a great feeling of tingling like I am getting very close to The Answer, and then nothing--it goes away.
And then there is JKR saying
"I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!"
It is like she is trying to tell me I should be "past this allready", like she is laughing at me, trying to give me a clue but I have no clue of what she is getting at. Like it is gratifing to her to tease me a little--like in Red Dragon when Hannibal is telling Will Gram obvious information while laughing at him, insulting him-- That is how I feel--like Graham-- when JKR says things like this and it is also why she is so darn good as a writer. It is my belief that JKR has indirectly given us all the clues and info we need to predict what happens in Book 7 and that she will introduce very little info in Book 7. We have to read between the lines to get the answers. If she told us the answers directly, there would not be any thinking involved, not be more than one plausable sanario, and thus no fun involved.

Nicole, a original idea, some flaws, but better than anyithing I would be able to come up with and certanly promotes discussion.

The most simple (occam's razor = one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything), plausable explination to how Dumbledore and Hagrid reacted so quickly after the Potters were killed is that Peter was the first and only Secret-Keeper for the Potters Secret info (which is not relivant to this specific topic) and told only Sirius, Peter then wrote on paper the info, which Sirius took to show to Dumbledore and Hagrid (and possiably others) then burned the paper.

Peter told Voldemort, but Voldemort waited untill he was sure that they would not be inturrupted by Dumbledore or Sirius since he would get one shot at it (if he failed his great useful spy Peter would be discovered and it would be much harder to find the Potters again.). Information from Snape on where Dumbledore was at a certain day and time was easy. But he would have to wait on whereabouts of Sirius (Because Sirius was in hiding because since Sirius was blufing Secret-Keeper). When Sirius arranged a meeting to check on Peter's safty and saw he was gone, and got a bad feeling, it must have been because Peter was told of the meeting by Sirius and told his master of the meeting before hand, did not show up for the meeting but instead showed up at the Potter's which would have made it easy for Voldemort to get by the magical protections of the house, if any, to take them by suprise so that any calls for help, if any, could be only to the ones who knows where they are at and that it would take some time for them to arrive to help. Voldemort battles with and kills James. Then he kills Lily and then attempts to kill harry.

Dumbledore who knows the location of the Potters but cannot tell anyone but Hagrid and by using the same type of magic that the ministry uses to monitor underage magic and/or by something like Weasly's clock (his strange watch) knows that the Potters are dead, and DD knows that Voldemort has fallen by info from Snape's scar. So DD orders Hagrid to take Harry to the Dursleys to meet him there in 24 hours (why so long? mabye the journey requires 24 hours to take), then DD goes with Snape to notify the Ministry of Magic and hunt down the death eaters. By this time Snape is in Azcaban without trial.

Harry does not need to be told the secret info of his parents because he was present when Peter told Sirius and James and Lily (as a baby) all he has to do is rembember it.

Yes I know there are flaws in my theory. Mabye it can be inproved.

Any alternate theories should somehow go allong with some of the following information:
"Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm......and yet, Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' Secret-Keeper himself......He was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements" PoA Ch 10 pg. 205 us
Dumbledore was sure that a spy was keeping Voldemort informed of the Potters movements, therefore, Dumbledore must of had some idea of the Potters movements. Perhaps Dumbledore got the information that Voldemort was well informed from Snape.
"An immensely complex spell." he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" PoA Ch 10 pg. 205 us
Since James and Sirius had suceeded in becoming a Animgas when there are only seven registered this century and Lily is so gifted at potions, either one of them have the brainpower to preform the "complex" charm on Wormtail alone and in secret so that only they and Sirius know of it.
The phrase "concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul" implies that there can be only one Secret-Keeper for a certain secret at a time and that the Secret-Keeper can only be human.
The phrase "impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." implies that only the Secret-Keeper can tell others about the secret and if it is possiable to change Secret-Keepers than the first Secret-Keeper must approve the change and the former Secret-Keeper will have no more power to tell anyone of the secret.
The last sentence, in the quote above, implies that Godric's Hollow is a village and even if Voldemort knew that Potters were in GH it would not help him much at all. McGonogal knew that the Potters were hiding in GH after all.
"I met him!" growled Hagrid. "I musta bin the last ter see him before he killed all them people! It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, an' his parents dead...an' Sirius Black turns up, on that flyin' motorbike he used ter ride." PoA Ch 10 pg. 206 us
Hagrid goes to get Harry and then sees Sirius, thus, Hagrid knows the precise location of the Potters and gets to the house before Sirius does.
"I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me....I'm to blame, I know it....The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies...realized what Peter must've done...what I'd done...." PoA ch 19 pg 365 us
The wording of "to change to Peter at the last moment [before the spell was preformed]...to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me [either one or the other] " and Sirius being James' first choice implies that the first and only Secret-Keeper for the secret info of the Potters was Peter.
Sirius knows the precise location of the Potters, so
"When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else....The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information." -JKR faq poll answer
Thus no person can know the hidden information except who the Secret-Keeper divuldges to.

The Secret-Keeper thing is simular and diffrent from the Unbreakable Vow but it seems that the latter is not recomended by Ron's dad.

wandaXmaximof

March 18th, 2006, 1:19 pm

OMG! That was the best editorial ever written. When J.K answered the F.A.Q poll 'What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?' I didn't think much of the Potters etc. I was more wrapped up in the implication of Dumbledore's death and the location of #12 Grimmauld Place. You've really opened up a can or worms.
I never realised before how many evil things Wormtail has done and I honestly think the Sorting Hat made a mistake with sorting him into Gryffindor.
I also never realised the implications of Snape being at Godric's Hollow on the night of the Potters' death. On one hand, he might have told Dumbledore what had happend, enabling Dumbledore to rescure baby Harry- giving Dumbledore a fantastic reason to trust him. Or on the other hand he may have witnessed the whole thing, knewn Wormtail was the secret keeprer and done nothing- if thats the case I hold about as much hope for redemption for Snape as I think there is for Wormtail. ZERO!
You've really given us a lot to think about and J.K will have a lot to answer in the last book. I can see why two chapters have turned into 4.
I just have one question. If for arguments sake, no body knows the location of Godric's Hollow apart from Wormtail. How will Harry find Wormtail to get this information. The last place we saw Wormtail was at Snape's- I dare to think of the implications of Harry going to Snape's house! :nc: :scared:

MmeBergerac

March 18th, 2006, 2:48 pm

Posted by alexandervander:
Peter told Voldemort, but Voldemort waited untill he was sure that they would not be inturrupted by Dumbledore or Sirius since he would get one shot at it (if he failed his great useful spy Peter would be discovered and it would be much harder to find the Potters again.).

That's very good, but Vold didn't need to be so careful (or so he thought, of course). He was sure of Peter's information because he was scared; he was nastyly proud and wouldn't consider Sirius a danger, nor James a rival or Lily an obstacle. For Dumbledore, he could be quite sure that in the Halloween night he'd be at Hogwarts unless something urgent made him leave, and for this it was enough ordering his DE not to murder anyone that night. And he was in a hurry for killing Harry (he didn't even wait to check if he was the right boy!).
Good theory, friend. I take off my hat.

inkling7

March 18th, 2006, 2:49 pm

If Godric's Hollow is a village as JK said then anybody should be able to go there - after all Hagrid said he got Harry out before any muggles swarmed arounf the blown up house. However I somehow think that a someone musgt have known about Sirius swapping with Wormtail in the Secret Keeper thingy. Some magic should be able to detect this surely?
I am still finding hard to believe that Siruis didn't loudly protest his innocence well before he supposedly saw Pettigrew as Scabbers in the Daily Phophet. Can you imagine a daily newspaper b eing delivered to prisoners each day in a place like Azkaban? I think not as Dementors don't want to give the prisoners

Gmariam

March 18th, 2006, 2:52 pm

Good morning,
Great editorial, Lady Lupin, you raise so many questions! There has been some good discussion on this same topic in the Burrow as well. I personally think that the Fidelius Charm protected the Potters themselves - not their house or their village. I think this because Flitwick says something about Voldemort going right up to their window but not being able to see them unless he was told the secret by the Secret-Keeper.
It does not seem inconcievable to me that Peter told Sirius the Secret. If they switched at the last minute then Sirius was probably there when the charm was cast (probably by Lily, I agree) and could have been told then. Sirius could not have told Voldemort anyway because he was not the Secret-Keeper, so it was safe to tell him. But Hagrid and Dumbledore are another story. It certainly seems possible they knew the Potters were in Godric's Hollow. They may have even known their address! But once the charm was cast, I think they couldn't actually *see* the Potters unless Wormtail told them.
Which doesn't make much sense to me, because I see a big flaw here: if someone knew they had a house in Godric's Hollow before the charm was cast, even if this person couldn't see them in it because they didn't know the secret from Wormtail, they could just go destroy the house and hope the Potters were in it and therefore destroyed. (I see similar issues with 12 Grimmauld Place).
So I could be way off :)
Either way, someone around here has theorized that the Fidelius Charm is so named because the secret is protected by the fidelity of the Secret-Keeper. I will not take credit for this - I hope this person raises their hand and offers some thoughts! I for one thought it was a very interesting thought. Perhaps the charm broke when Wormtail betrayed the Potters by revealing the secret to Voldemort, and this is why Dumbledore, Hagrid and Sirius could all find them in Godric's Hollow.
Or perhaps the charm broke with the death of James and Lily. However, I do wonder why the charm didn't continue to protect Harry. Perhaps the AK curse destroyed the charm, I could believe that. And so with the charm broken, the three Potters were visible. I think it very possible Dumbledore knew the Potters were in Godric's Hollow, he just wasn't privy to the secret as protected by the charm. So he could have told Hagrid.
But there are still two more questions: how did Dumbledore know so quickly what had happened? Hagrid got to the house before the Muggles started swarming around; a house exploding has got to attract some attention, and quickly (although its possible the house was somewhat isolated). And if Dumbledore thought Sirius was the Secret-Keeper, then I think Lady Lupin asks one of the best questions, one I had never thought of: why didn't Dumbledore bat an eye when Hagrid mentioned seeing Sirius at the house and borrowing his motorbike? Perhaps he was thinking that Sirius had betrayed the Potters but didn't share it on Privet Drive. But I do wonder.
The editorial lays out so many thoughts that this is sure to be a wonderful discussion. Thanks for your great work, Lady Lupin!
~Gina :)

inkling7

March 18th, 2006, 3:25 pm

seeker4life

March 18th, 2006, 4:01 pm

Lady Lupin, thanks for such a great, thought-provoking editorial...your column is always a joy to read!

One idea you mentioned in this editorial is the possibility that the Fidelius Charm was nullified when Harry was rescued because there was no one left at Godric's Hollow to protect. But at the end of OotP and the beginning of HBP, Dumbledore is concerned about the status of 12 Grimmauld Place's secret now that Sirius is dead. If Dumbledore isn't certain that the house is still safe, it's unlikely that Phoenix members would be staying there in the meantime (not to mention the night at the DoM when the Order showed up to save Harry, which meant they were not at the house). So, even though the house is (presumably) empty, that's not why Dumbledore is concerned about the Charm still being in place. This might indicate that it's the location, not the individuals, that the Charm ultimately protects.

I'm sorry for the extra post, but I was cut off before! :)

An additional question I've always had (and maybe there's been an editorial and I missed it), but why/how, out of the all the wizards in wizardkind, would Wormtail find Percy Weasley?? This may be just one of those necessary plot devices, but what are the chances of him finding a home with Ron Weasley's brother? Since Wormtail's ineptitude is emphasized in the books, we can't assume that he could somehow forsee an opportunity to spy on the good guys. Knowing his cowardly and fearful nature, it seems more likely that he would seek shelter with a Death Eater or other fellow Voldemort supporter, or just go into hiding altogether in some foreign country. Is there some Weasley-Potter connection that existed long before Ron and Harry that would give Wormtail the incentive to seek out Percy?

Any ideas? I've always been curious about this.

MacGyverMagic

March 18th, 2006, 4:28 pm

I don't think the secret said the Potters were in Godric's Hollow. I think the note contained a specific address otherwise unplottable or invisible to anyone who didn't know. When the house was destroyed, the secret basically ceized to exist. The House the Potters were supposed to be hidding didn't exist any more. So the secret "The Potters are at 7 Possum Drive in Godric's Hollow" (similar to the location of 12 Grimmauld Place) would be meaningless.

SoccerDM

March 18th, 2006, 6:58 pm

Amazing editorial Lady Lupin,

I'm most concerened with the speed that information traveled, on the "lost day". Within that day, everyone in the wizarding world knew that Voldemort had attacked the Potters and been killed. How would everyone know this information so quickly?
I also want to know WHY Voldemort was having Wormtail watched by Snape in Spinners End. Everyone at this point knows that Sirius was innocent, so what reason does "Wormtail need to hide?" and "Voldemort want Wormtail Watched?"

Dumbledore worked fast to organize everything that happened after the murders. It seems likely that the Potters would have had to have been constantly being checked up on by either Sirius or others who were told the secret location. But something else is missing since the wizarding world suddenly knew about what transpired. Think about it. If their location was a secret to everyone but those who were told, then one of them must have passed this information to outsiders in the wizarding world. It is likely that only OotP members and a few of the Death Eaters knew the location. So who let it slip?

The person who it would benifit most to have everyone know is Wormtail. Yes, this makes him a target qucikly, but this would happen eventually anyway and he knows this. Right after Voldemort was gone Wormtail would be thinking, "****, I'm screwed!" He would run off and tell someone that the Potter's had been killed and Voldemort was gone. This news would then spread to everyone, including Dumbledore and others. This would cause a lot of commotion. Wormtail would then use this time to get his last affairs set.

In HBP, everyone knows about Wormtails involvement in what happened that night, but maybe not to the greatest extent. However, Voldemort WOULD be one of the few who know about Wormtails envolvement. This makes Wormtail a liablitiy and is the reason why Voldemort has Snape watch him at Spinners End. Voldemort doesn't want him out in the open, because he can't trust Wormtail with anything else of importance, and is afraid that Wormtail may let important information slip to the wrong people.

Shewoman

March 18th, 2006, 7:31 pm

The usual excellent job, Lady Lupin! I like the idea that Sirius may have handed out notes in Wormtail's writing about the Potters' location, and the suggestion that Petunia may also have such a paper is surely intriguing.

As far as the mentions of Sirius among Dumbledore, McG, and Hagrid in the first book go, I think (based on the fact that Dumbledore allowed Sirius to be sent to Azkaban without a trial and allows dementors around Hogwarts in Prisoner) that Dumbledore thought Sirius was the Secret-Keeper . . . just as Sirius hoped when/if he passed out notes in Peter's handwriting. He would therefore probably figure that the betrayer wasn't hanging around waiting for his bike and therefore there was no need to warn Hagrid to be careful of him. (Whatever happened to that bike, anyway?) If Dumbledore knew the truth, I can't explain his behavior re Sirius in the later books.

I agree with those who've said Sirius was never the Secret-Keeper, that Peter was the only one on (or with) whom the Charm was cast.

It would be interesting to know why the Charm ended. Was it the death of the caster? Of a majority of the people covered by the Secret? The destruction of the house itself? Or--my favorite, is the "Fidelius" Charm invalidated when the trusted person for whom the charm is named turns out not to be faithful?

lilyp

March 18th, 2006, 7:40 pm

Another great editorial, Lady Lupin!
I agree with most of it and I had already thought of the hypothesis of Sirius or Wormtail himself giving the message to Dumbledore (Dumbledore might find it safer if Sirius just told him the secret. Wormtail could say that sirius couldn't come and sent the message to Dumbledore).
My only disagreement is on the topic of Hagrid arriving a lot of time after Lily's death. He met Sirius there and Sirius went there as soon as he noticed Wormtail wasn't in his hiding place and there were no signs of fight. that means Hagrid couldn't have taken long to arrive there.
I think that Hagrid took the baby somewhere else to hide him, feed him, take care of him and wait until Dumbledore would have prepared all the needed safety arrangements and then took Harry to Privet Drive.

Good morning,
I personally think that the Fidelius Charm protected the Potters themselves - not their house or their village. I think this because Flitwick says something about Voldemort going right up to their window but not being able to see them unless he was told the secret by the Secret-Keeper.

[...] Perhaps the charm broke when Wormtail betrayed the Potters by revealing the secret to Voldemort, and this is why Dumbledore, Hagrid and Sirius could all find them in Godric's Hollow.
Or perhaps the charm broke with the death of James and Lily. However, I do wonder why the charm didn't continue to protect Harry.

That has always been my interpretation of the Fidelius Charm on the Potters. But I wasn't aware that Harry was under its protection too ( silly me). When I read Jo's answer I wondered how is it possible that everyone sees Harry. There are some possibilities: the revelation of the secret of the deaths of James and Lily broke the charm or Wormatail himself finished the charm. Or our interpretation of the tex you quoted was wrong and the house was under the charm, not the people.

taupimu

March 18th, 2006, 8:39 pm

Wonderful as always.

I believe that no one knew who the Potters' secret keeper was at the time of their death. If Sirius had been the one to bring the note to Petunia, then she would have believed that he was the secret keeper. If no one else knew at the time and got the information from Petunia she would have told them that Sirius was the one who gave it to her.

The part about who gave her the information may not have been known until after Harry had been given to her. I'm not sure that the charm would have hidden some one who was dead. If that is the case then finding the paper would have become necessary to find Harry who was not dead.

Harry may have been included in the charm and would be able to find the house. Once again I am not sure that the house would still be hidden if the Potters were dead. Dumbledore moved the Order Headquarters when he felt there was a possiblility that Bella Lestrange might have inherited the house on Grimwault.

I also thought that I heard somewhere that you could look in the window of the place and not know any one was there if there was a fidelius charm in place. That means that the house could be seen but the Potters would not be known to be inside.

hermionefan01

March 18th, 2006, 10:17 pm

pandora67

March 18th, 2006, 11:12 pm

Lady Lupin, thank you for all the enjoyment you have given me with your editorials. In the vernacular of the young (of which I am not one) YOU ROCK!!!!!

I had always assumed that the Fidelius charm "broke" if the Secret Keeper "broke the faith."

Now here's my twist.

What is the deal with Fedelius protected palces like 12 Grimwauld Place when someone like...oh...say...Bella already knows that such a place exsists? Harry couldn't even see the place until he was let in on the secret. Does the F Charm erase the memory of the location from the minds of people who knew of the location before it was put under protection?

If that is so, then maybe when the charm is broken those people suddenly remember those locations. So Dumbledore is at the feast on Halloween and suddenly thinks, "I should go visit the Potters at Godric's Hollow. OH @$#!%! I shouldn't know where they are! Something BAD has gone down!"

Far fetched I know. But it tickles me.

coasterprincess

March 19th, 2006, 12:04 am

Well done. My head is spinning with ideas and possibilities. It's amazing to see all of the ideas people have added to in this thread. So here's my input...
Maybe the Charm is more focused on wizards. As wonderful as Hagrid is...he's also half-giant. Maybe the charm doesn't have quite the same effect on him so he would be able to find the Potter's house and reclaim Harry.

Courtney_Ann

March 19th, 2006, 12:57 am

I thought it that was a way good editorial! The only thing I was wondering was if the charm protected the place where a person was, or the person themself. Because if it just protects the person then anyone could have seen Godrics Hollow...

SusanBones

March 19th, 2006, 1:29 am

That was a wonderful editorial, Lady Lupin. You raised a lot of good points. But I think there is a simple answer for many of your questions: Harry was no longer in the hiding place. If we go by the assumption that if JK found the poll question about the secret keeper to be a surprise winner, then she must have felt that the answer had already been revealed in the books. So, assuming we have the answers about Godric’s Hollow, here are my thoughts:

JK Rowling gave an example of a secret on her facts poll: no one can divulge the location of a family in hiding, such as the Potters, except the secret keeper.

1. Only Wormtail could tell people the “precise location” (JK Rowling’s words) of the Potters. JK said that he to tell them directly. Everyone who knew the secret knew who the secret keeper was. When Lupin gave Harry the note to read revealing the location of Grimmauld Place, he told Harry that the note was from Dumbledore.
2. Dumbledore and Hagrid did not know the secret, otherwise they would have known that Sirius was innocent. But it is safe to assume that Wormtail told Sirius the secret. We also know that he told Voldemort the secret.

Knowing that Hagrid was able to find Harry, even though he did not know the location of the hiding place, we have to assume the following:

1. Harry was not in the hiding place. Just like the Order of the Phoenix members can be found when they are not in their hiding place, Harry could be found because he was not in the hiding place. He was outside of the hiding place, in a pile of rubble.

2. Somehow the Ministry tracks when and where magic happens. Since Dumbledore did not know the location of the Potters, it must of have been the evidence of magic and the presence of a baby that even the Muggles could see, that tipped Dumbledore to the location.

3. Harry will be able to find the hiding place, since he was part of the secret.

4. Siruis was not believed to be the secret keeper until after the confrontation with Wormtail, in which Wormtail accused Sirius of being the traitor in front of witnesses. If they had thought Sirius was the secret keeper before that, he would have been captured when he showed up at the house.

The missing day is easy to explain; Hagrid had to keep Harry until they could make sure that they could safely hide him. They had to determine that Voldemort was gone and that none of the other Death Eaters knew where to find Harry.

negaprion

March 19th, 2006, 1:38 am

This is how I think it went down. The entire Order of the Phoenix know that James and Lily are at Godric's Hollow, but not the exact address. Only James, Lily, Harry, Sirius and Peter know that. However, there are Order members stationed in the village in case of emergency. We have seen this in both OotP and HBP. Hagrid was stationed there on the night in question. Now, how Hagrid found the place after the house exploded can be explained by several scenarios.

1) The secret was that James, Lily and Harry live at such-and-such address. Since James and Lily are no longer alive the secret is untrue and everyone can now see the house.

2) Hagrid, as a half-giant, can see the house, but can't divulge the info. We have seen several times that he has special powers due to his giant blood. And we have seen that certain spells only work on certain types of people - ie: house elves are able to Apparate in Hogwarts.

Regardless, Hagrid is immediately on the scene, grabs Harry and sends his patronus to Dumbledore. The patronus basically says that the house blew up, Lily and James are dead and Harry is alive, what do you want me to do? Dumbledore sends back a message saying something like ... get Harry away to somewhere safe as soon as possible, then bring him to me at the Dursley's as soon as it's dark. After Hagrid receives DD's message, he runs into Sirius and gets the flying motorcycle. He shows up at the Dursley's the next evening.

This assumes a few things we don't know. First, that Hagrid can't apparate. It has been implied, but never said. It just occurred to me that the entire village of Godric's Hollow and it's surroundings may have been "in-Apparable" otherwise why did Sirius use his motorcycle instead of apparating anyway? So Dumbledore and others wouldn't have been able to just apparate in and whisk Harry away.

Second, that the Order don't know what blew up the house. This is not a regular method of murdering people for wizards. And Harry -the one Voldemort was trying to kill - was still alive. Also, there was no sign of Voldemort left at the house. It could have been a gas leak, so they would not have suspected Sirius immediately.

Third, that Godric's Hollow is far enough away that Hagrid couldn't have gotten from there to Dumbledore in the time left of darkness. As far as everyone knew, Voldemort was still after Harry and would have still been looking for him. It would have been unsafe to try and move around during the day. As long as Harry was with Hagrid, he was pretty safe because Hagrid is immune to most spells and jinxes.

SeverusSupporte

March 19th, 2006, 5:03 am

Great editorial Lady Lupin!

Here's how I think it all went down:

1. Snape hears Wormtail tell Voldemort the location of the Potters and reports back to Dumbledore that information.

2. Dumbledore positions Snape at Godric's Hollow in a house or some living place of the sort with instructions on what to do if Voldemort comes.

3. Halloween night Voldemort comes to the Potter's home. Snape sees him but cannot prevent what is going to happen because he will be exposed as loyal to Dumbledore and would most likely be killed, eliminating Dumbledore's spy in Voldemort's fold.

4. The Potters are killed but Harry survives. Snape goes and gets Harry, sends up the Dark Mark to notify Dumbledore that something has gone terribly wrong. Snape waits with Harry until Hagrid arrives.

5. Snape knows that Wormtail is the Secret-Keeper so he does not blame Sirius when he arrives on the motorbike. Dumbledore likewise (having been told by Snape that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper) would also not blame Sirius at Privet Drive. Hagrid takes the motorbike and Harry to a location (possibly Hogwarts) until Dumbledore can make sure that Privet Drive is set for Harry's arrival. Harry is later dropped off at Privet Drive.

6. As for Snape attempting to send an innocent man to Azkaban, he could have known that Wormtail was the Secret-Keeper without knowing that Sirius hadn't killed Wormtail and those 11 other muggles. Snape cannot be absolutely sure that Sirius is not guilty of that crime. As he says he believed Sirius to be capable of murder at the age of sixteen. Snape could have thought Sirius was innocent of betraying the Potters but not neccesarily of killing Wormtail and the muggles.

Well those are my thoughts. I hope I gave some valuable insight. Once again, great editorial Lady Lupin!

phrodo

March 19th, 2006, 7:15 am

Does the F Charm erase the memory of the location from the minds of people who knew of the location before it was put under protection?

this is kind of what I'm leaning towards. Wouldn't Dumbledore, Sirius, Hagrid, and/or Remus have already known where the Pottters would be hiding? Doesn't the Fidelus charm only mean that they are physically prevented from divulging the knowledge to anyone else? I never was under the impression that it erases prior knowledge. Am I missing something here?

alexandervander

March 19th, 2006, 7:43 am

Excellent theories everyone, they all seem to follow the text that I indicated earlier. I am currenty modifying my theory of what exactly happend before and after the potters deaths, why it happened and how it relates to the F Charm, but there are still major flaws to it and it is not as simple as I would like. I will post it, I think, in a couple of days.

To phrodo:

You make a superb point. I think this point is the crux of the usefullness of the spell. So hear is my opinion on it:

JKR said when the Secret-Keeper dies, the status of the secret remains the same at the moment of their death. This leads me to think that when the spell is cast the status of the infomation that is involved must be secret for it to be effective. Example: voldemort did not preform the spell to try to make secret the information that voldemort after harry tells dumbledore.
Does the F Charm erase the memory of the location from the minds of people who knew of the location before it was put under protection?
The answer to the above question is no. If it could be done, then voldemort would have done it to erase the memories of all the wizards who had previous knowlage he was back.

I am sure you can come up with much better examples to support this answer than this one.

Draka_nova

March 19th, 2006, 7:45 am

First off, I would like to say that I've only read a page and some of the posts so forgive me if people have already said something. It is 2am for me, lol...
I don't believe Petunia was notified of anything because she wanted nothing to do with her sister...absolutely nothing so why would she want the address of her sister's house? She wouldn't.

I also don't believe Sirius was previously secret-keeper. He probably brought along Peter on the day the Fidelus charm was to be cast secretly, and said to James and Lily: "Cast it on Peter instead." Peter could easily disguise his writing with a spell to look like Sirius' or maybe even used a polyjuice potion to pose as Sirius to give out the location.

I do believe Snape didn't know Peter was the spy...Dumbledore and the Order suspected Lupin and Snape didn't say anything against it. He probably didn't have evidence and guessed because of Greyback that most werewolves were with DEs. Snape likely never sees what they do. Maybe Peter was kept secret from most of Voldemort's followers just in case...or he could have been that new of one. I also think Snape was kept out of this plan(maybe he told Voldy where Dumbledore was but that's it) and therefore would not have been present at the house, I mean he was technically a teacher at the time and since it was halloween someone at school would notice his absence.
I also think that the charm is cast on a building so that would explain the idea of everyone else(aka muggles) seeing the place after the Potters' death because the house was destroyed. Maybe there was still some powerful or odd magic that caused the Order to think that there had been a newly invented spell that could break through the charm making Sirius innocent until Peter accused him and he "blew up" a group of people. Perhaps this magic was the reason it took Dumbledore so long to get things underway or for Hagrid to do anything yet. Anywho that's what I think...

waggawaggawer

March 19th, 2006, 8:34 am

What a magnificent essay. It has really set me thinking.

The phrase "concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul" implies that there can be only one Secret-Keeper for a certain secret at a time and that the Secret-Keeper can only be human.
The phrase "impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." implies that only the Secret-Keeper can tell others about the secret and if it is possible to change Secret-Keepers than the first Secret-Keeper must approve the change and the former Secret-Keeper will have no more power to tell anyone of the secret.
The last sentence, in the quote above, implies that Godric's Hollow is a village and even if Voldemort knew that Potters were in GH it would not help him much at all. McGonogal knew that the Potters were hiding in GH after all.

Hagrid goes to get Harry and then sees Sirius, thus, Hagrid knows the precise location of the Potters and gets to the house before Sirius does.

The wording of "to change to Peter at the last moment [before the spell was preformed]...to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me [either one or the other] " and Sirius being James' first choice implies that the first and only Secret-Keeper for the secret info of the Potters was Peter.
Sirius knows the precise location of the Potters, so

Thus no person can know the hidden information except who the Secret-Keeper divulges to.

Lady Lupin has asked some very pertinent questions indeed. Some she hasn't asked include: When did Snape tell Voldemort about the prophecy? And, why did Voldemort take all of 15 months to do something about it?

Rememer, the prophecy was made in the December before Harry (and Neville) were born. Snape overheard it, then two months before Harry was born he became the Potions master at Hogwarts. This must have caused a stir. Snape in the enemy camp is one thing. But as a friend of Dumbledore Snape is highly dangerous, due to his grudge against Sirius in particular, and the Marauders in general. It is unlikely that Snape would have forgotten about the werewolf incident, and of course he didn't.

Was Snape's coming over to the 'good' side the reason why Sirius insisted on the change in secret-keeper? That he saw it to be dangerous to trust Snape, however he may have appeared to have recanted?

The Potters were told to go into hiding, but when? Was Sirius the original secret keeper, up to Snape's appointment, but after the news about Snape coming into the 'good' camp, the Potters and Sirius conferred and decided that Wormtail would be a much safer secret-keeper? If so and the changeover was made, then Sirius would have no power to divulge the name of the place, but would still continue to know, himself, where it was. According to my source, Peter was made secret keeper about a week before Voldemort paid his visit to Godric's Hollow.

That would explain how Sirius was still able to be one of the first on the scene, even though he was not the traitor. If he had previously written down the name, himself, passing it on to Dumbledore beforehand as an extra precaution that would explain Dumbledore's speed in getting the baby and Hagrid meeting Sirius at Godric's Hollow.

For the rest, the magic sensors of the Department of Magical Law Enforcers would have been able to detect what happened.

Leo_Kerr

March 19th, 2006, 12:55 pm

Something bugged me about the range of options Lady Lupin suggested in the original editorial; bugged me enough that I finally went through and registered to post -- and remembered to come back and make this comment.

Someone else mentioned Occam's Razor, but sort of missed the most simple solution. Lots of discussion is going about who Wormtail may or may not have told at what intervals, and how it might be done.

And, as Lady Lupin suggests herself, not much is known (by us) about the Fidelious Charm.

This charm is a really tricky bit of magic, not only in the casting (which is said to be tricky,) but also in the mechanics of how it works (which we really don't know, either.) It does place a tremendous amount of trust upon the designated Secret-Keeper.

Now, suppose, for example, Harry and #12 Grimmauld Place. What, during OOTP, is his perception of his memory of #12? Does he know it is a secret? How does he know he can't divulge that knowledge?

I ask this to raise this point:

What if Wormtail simply dissolved the charm entire? He need not tell anyone the secret; Voldemort can find the Potter clan; Hagrid and the Public Service employees can find the wreckage of the house; and everyone else can know that some deep magic went down in Godrick's Hollow -- all without any tricky schedules or note-passing.

And for the forensically inclined, they might begin to wonder: what happened to the Secret? Did the charm fail for some reason - the hair of the dog Fido wasn't quite fresh and clean enough? Did the caster inadvertantly do the flick of the wand in the wrong direction at the wrong time?

And no one would really suspect, because these are all good and trusting people in the Order of the Phoenix, that the Secret Keeper would betray the Secret. That sort of betrayal is... unthinkable, much like the shock that fell upon the remaining modern Order after the events on the astronomy tower.

Particularly, I might add, because (a) those in the know knew Sirus was the Secret Keeper, and he was absolutely shocked and horrified - because he really was completely surprised.

That's a problem with magic; there are so many... possibilities...

Leo Kerr

SusanBones

March 19th, 2006, 3:30 pm

Lady Lupin has asked some very pertinent questions indeed. Some she hasn't asked include: When did Snape tell Voldemort about the prophecy? And, why did Voldemort take all of 15 months to do something about it?

Voldemort was told that a person was going to be born that would be able to vanquish him. I am sure that he figured it would take a pretty long time before this kid was old enough to this. I am sure he thought long and hard on how he would "take this kid out". And remember, James and Lily were not easy targets. They had already defied Voldemort three times.

EthanL90

March 19th, 2006, 4:14 pm

I haven't had time to sort through all of these excellent responses but I do have a question:
Isn't it just slightly possible that Wormtail just canceled the charm that night? Just imagine; James, Lily, and Harry have all been killed. What would be the point of the charm, wouldn't Voldemort want to show the wizarding world the deaths he just caused, or would he prefer to leave their bodies concealed until someone who knew the location came to find them? If Voldemort told him "you might as well cancel it, they'll be dead within a few minutes", couldn't the charm be gone? I know it's farfetched but it is interesting.

HelieD93

March 19th, 2006, 4:36 pm

I've read all of these interesting ideas, and one idea that hes kept resurfacing was that Wormtail wrote down the location. Why would he do that? As flitwick said in PoA (not an exact quote), barely a week after the charm was performed, Sirius (in our case Wormtail) gave the Potters away to Dumbledore. He could have to Sirius, "I'll do it later..." or something. He knew the Potters would be dead in a matter of days, so why all of the hassle?? just a thought...

misskneazle

March 19th, 2006, 6:45 pm

Lady Lupin, I think I'm enjoying your editorials more and more, you did a great job-again.

It would be interesting to know why the Charm ended. Was it the death of the caster? Of a majority of the people covered by the Secret? The destruction of the house itself? Or--my favorite, is the "Fidelius" Charm invalidated when the trusted person for whom the charm is named turns out not to be faithful?I was leaning more toward the house being destroyed being the cause of the enchantment ending. However, I really like your idea, you're basing this on the word origin, right? Loyalty would seem to play a major part in the charm. I cant believe I never connected that. So do you think that the moment Peter Pettigrew told the secret to Voldemort the charm was broken?

capotter

March 19th, 2006, 7:48 pm

Excellent editorial, as always.

I've been thinking about the timeline with regards to the prophecy. The foretelling took place in December. Do we know when exactly Snape shared what he heard with V? People are asking why V waited to attack and I have a couple of ideas:

1. Snape may have not told V about the prophecy directly upon hearing it. Is it possible that he kept the information to himself until he could better his position by offering that up to V (wouldn't this be a characteristic of a true Slyterin? Helping another to help oneself?)

2. Maybe Snape did tell him about it and then V spent his time up until he killed the Potters tracking down Phoenix members who were most likely to procreate--married couples. Perhaps the Potters and Longbottoms were the only ones. Maybe they had escaped V three times already because he was trying to stop them from even conceiving the one who could vanquish him.

And oh--what if Dumbledore never told anyone about the prophecy? He's already said that he is the ONLY ONE who has heard it in its entirety. Maybe once Lily and Neville's mom indicated that they would both be giving birth in July, Dumbledore then finally shared the prophecy. That does not explain, however, what the Longbottoms did about keeping themselves and Neville in the clear.

Just some food for thought. And I love reading these great posts! Keep the hot ideas coming!

capotter

glowing_ice

March 19th, 2006, 9:22 pm

Could it be possible that Sirius told Hagrid where the location was when he himself was secret keeper? As far as I understood it. Sirius was secret keeper then they switched to Wormtail. Perhaps Hagrid and Dumbledore were told by the secret keeper "of the day". This opens up a lot of new possibilities with switching secret keepers. Hopefully you follow me.

I was thinking of the same thing... and can't James and Lily also have told people like Dumbledore and Hagrid?

I wondered that for a while, too. But I decided that the Charm would have to be renewed to change Secret Keepers, so that anyone the original Keeper told would, well, forget. Or something. -shifty eyes- Sorry if that didn't make sense.

I'm not sure that it's likely that people forgot the location... I dunno, it just sounds a bit weird. Since after all, I mean, Sirius still knew, and he was the original Keeper, so yeah. And also, Dumbledore said he offered to the Secret Keeper, so that meant that he most likely knew.

HelieD93

March 19th, 2006, 11:12 pm

Since after all, I mean, Sirius still knew, and he was the original Keeper, so yeah.

Sorry, but did they ever prove that Sirius was a Secret keeper? We don't know for sure...Wormtail was probably the only SK in my opinion...

Wimsey

March 19th, 2006, 11:30 pm

Hey Lady-Lupin,

Interesting article. I have a couple of quick comments.

1. In GoF, JKR gave us a very simple means for Pettigrew to disseminate the Secret without telling anybody. In that book, Hermione got at least one letter from a wizard composed with letters and words cut from the Daily Prophet.

It also is possible that Pettigrew bewitched his note to look like Black's writing or generic writing; however, as we never have seen a spell for doing this, that idea is basically fan-fiction.

2. There is no reason to think that Snape was at Grimmauld Place or that he knew that Pettigrew was the traitor. For one thing, we already basically know that Pettigrew was there (as you note). It was Pettigrew, after all, who retrieved Voldemort's wand.

Second, Pettigrew's identity as traitor/spy should have been closely guarded secret by Voldemort. Voldemort had to suspect that Dumbledore had spies in his midst, and one of the greatest secrets of all is the identity of your spies.

Third, Snape must have had some reason to tell Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters. It is just much to complicated to think that this was part of some scheme of Voldemort's: doing it to test Pettigrew's loyalty, for example, just boggles credulity. Now, we know that Snape hates James, and he obviously is not predisposed to like Harry. However, there is one person close to Harry that we have seen standup for Snape, that (like Snape) was a whiz with potions and capable of charming almost anybody, and who, unlike anybody else close to Harry, Snape never has denigrated in Harry's presence: Lily. It is quite possible that he still is upset that he was unable to do so: "don't talk about what you don't understand," he rages at Harry in the Shrieking Shack.

So, if Snape was willing to try to save Lily (for whatever reasons, and it could only have been her that he was trying to save), then why would he back away from this? Why would he not warn the Order that the secret keeper was betraying the people who had a secret only because he warned them?

Now, where did Pettigrew hide the wand? We have no idea. However, we also probably will not read this in book VII: it simply will not be germane to the plot of that story.

3. Dumbledore failing to arrive at Grimmauld Place himself need not be explained by him not knowing about the Secret. Indeed, Dumbledore had one other task that evening that had to supersede this: what happened to Voldemort? It stands to reason that Dumbledore probably did go to Grimmauld Place that night, not to get Harry, but a) to give Hagrid instructions, and b) try to pick up Voldemort's trail. Dumbledore must have had some reason for thinking that Dumbledore was alive and well. He also must have had some reason for thinking that it was the Avada Kedavra curse in particular that Harry survived. As we have seen, magic leaves traces, and Dumbledore must have picked up traces of what Voldemort had done (including fleeing).

Carolyn Black

March 20th, 2006, 1:39 am

Great editorial Lady Lupin!
Some thoughts on the chain of events that halloween night the Potters are killed.

1. I believe that Dumbledore, Hagrid, Sirius and Wormtail all knew the location of GH. I liked the note idea in your editorial.

2. On that nite Sirius checks on Peter, he's not there, Sirius gets scared and starts to look for Wormtail. He also could have sent word that the Potters are in trouble to the Order. Every one says Ok b/c Sirius is the Secret Keeper.

3. Peter went to Voldy. Voldy goes to GH, kills Potters, the spell is broken by Wormtail's infidelity( I like this idea sorry I read so many responses I not sure who to quote).

4.DD get the warning from Sirius and send Hagrid to GH to check on the Potters. Hagrid finds Harry and tells Dumbledore. Dumbledore tells Hagrid where to meet him suspecting that Voldy may still be viable. Dumbledore executes spells to protect Harry and alerts Order members to be on the look out for Voldy. McGongall goes to check out the Durselys. Dumbledore meets Mc Gongall and Hagrid at the Durselys.

5. Dumbledore doesn't suspect Sirius b/c neither he or Hagrid or Mc Gongall have heard about the Sirius' involvement with the muggles being blown up until after Harry is placed in safety.

6. Once they get back to the wizarding world and hear about Sirius, it is too late. He is already in azkaban. They believe the story b/c they are unaware that Wormtail is the secret keeper. Until PoA when the trio learn the true story and tell Dumbledore.

Well, what do you all think? It could be explained away very simply. Or can you poke a punch of holes in this quick little theory.

Emerald63

March 20th, 2006, 1:54 am

Oh, Lady Lupin... is there no end to your cogent observations? Brava!

Since the FAQ Poll answer came out I've been wondering about all this as well. The simplest thing I've come up with so far is this -- there are as many variations on the Fidelius Charm (FC) as there are types of secrets to be hidden.

In the case of James, Lily, and Harry, they needed to be hidden, not a place for itself, as with #12 Grimmauld Place, nor an object. So they are the secret. But, as was pointed out in the related article (http://www.mugglenet.com/infosection/opinion/fidelius.shtml) in the HP Encyclopedia "Opinions" section at MuggleNet, hiding their persons in general would have left them in limbo if their Secret Keeper (SK) had died, because no one who had not already been told they were hidden would have ever been able to see them again. So it seems the FC for the Potters was on their persons while they were inside the house at Godric's Hollow. If they left the house, they would have been visible. The FC could also not have been on the house itself, I don't think. This is because in PoA Fudge says that Voldemort could have pressed his nose up against the window. If this is correct, then Voldemort would have had to have been able to see the house, just not the Potters inside it. These factors led me to believe that the following was the form of the FC for Godric's Hollow:

(living individuals to be hidden) + (place they're to be hidden) = (Godric's Hollow Fidelius Charm)

This led me to believe that the house being destroyed is what had caused the FC to stop working. If the house had not been destroyed, but all those protected had died, again, the charm would have stopped working and the three AKed bodies would have become visible inside the intact house. I still think the destruction of the house is one possible reason the charm ceased to function.

However, from having read the posts here, I now believe that Peter's betrayal may also have had the same effect. Several people asked whether Peter could have simply dissolved the magic and ended the charm entirely and on purpose. Personally, I don't think that would be possible. We've heard about binding magical contracts before. In GoF, Harry was bound by such a contract even though he wasn't the one who put his name into the Goblet! And with spells like the Unbreakable Vow you can't just "change your mind" and stop the magic. I think the same is true for the Fidelius Charm. However, there's no reason to believe that binding magical contracts do not have numerous clauses in them. One of these would concern the "fidelity" of the SK. If that fidelity ever failed, if the chosen SK turned out not to be the trustworthy person the individuals who trusted him thought he was, then those people are going to need help in a big way when things go south. Therefore, if a SK reveals the secret for honorable reasons, the secret will hold. But if the SK reveals the secret in order to betray those he was sworn to protect (by means of keeping the secret), the entire spell falls apart. Everyone who feels the need to be involved is then on equal footing when the intended confrontation occurs. So perhaps I should restate my equation:

(living individuals to be hidden) + (place they're to be hidden) + (fidelity of the SK) = (Godric's Hollow FC)

If any of the three factors involved fails, the spell as a whole fails.

There were also a few posts I wanted to comment on.

Either because the explosion was very unusual (Avada Kedavra had never backfired like that before) or because a killing curse had hit (though not killed) all three persons protected by the Charm. It seems logical that the Charm would stop working when the persons protected by it were killed. And even if Harry didn't die, he was hit by the Avada Kedavra, and he should have died.On the Shamanism in HBP thread Barmy Codger offered the idea that Harry actually did die, in a way, but was in essence resurrected by his mother's love protection. He need not have literally died if the protection kicked in instantaneously when the Avada Kedavra hit him. But magically the Avada Kedavra was still delivered. Either it hitting and reflecting, or it hitting but being instantly negated, constituted Harry's "death." With all of the protected individuals "dead" the FC ended.

2) [Snape] sees Harry alive. Vold has evaporated. He's a DE. But he's DD's agent, too. Taking the baby to Dumbledore would be as shouting "I'm a traitor", and then all DE would be after him.:agree: If Snape was at Godric's Hollow, imo this would have been the biggest reason he would not have revealed himself, especially when any child of James's meant nothing to him but did mean something to others, like Dumbledore.

I can't imagine prisoners in Azkaban gettiing the daily newspapers so how did Sirius really find out about Peter Pettigrew being Scabbers?Newspapers weren't delivered to the inmates. Fudge was inspecting Azkaban and Sirius asked if he could have the newspaper Fudge was carrying with him. It just happened to be the one with Womrtail's picture in it. This is never discussed in the movie even though Ron shows Harry the newspaper photo of the family, including Scabbers, in Egypt.

How did Voldemort's wand get to Mr. Ollivander's pillow in his shop? and
How did Wormtail get Voldemort's wand back from the shop?Hermionefan01, I believe you've picked up on someone's theory by mistake. We have no evidence at all that the wand in Ollivander's shop window was Voldemort's. None. There's been a lot of theorizing over whose wand it was and why he kept it there. But we have no answers to these questions as yet.

Was Snape's coming over to the 'good' side the reason why Sirius insisted on the change in secret-keeper? That he saw it to be dangerous to trust Snape, however he may have appeared to have recanted?Sorry, but you've lost me with this one. What would Snape, no matter whose side he was on, have to do with who the SK was? The Marauders wanted nothing to do with Snape.

Maybe [the Potters and Longbottoms] had escaped V three times already because he was trying to stop them from even conceiving the one who could vanquish him.:agree: Yes, this would have been very typically-evil-genius of Voldemort.

I decided that the Charm would have to be renewed to change Secret Keepers, so that anyone the original Keeper told would, well, forget. Or something.I'm not sure that it's likely that people forgot the location... I dunno, it just sounds a bit weird. Since after all, I mean, Sirius still knew, and he was the original Keeper, so yeah. And also, Dumbledore said he offered to the Secret Keeper, so that meant that he most likely knew.1) The reason why Sirius knew the Potters location is because James would have insisted that Peter tell him. (No, not canon, but highly likely.)

2) I do not believe Sirius was ever a SK. He was supposed to be the SK, but Peter was substituted before any FC was ever cast. So the only functioning SK the Potters ever had was Peter, even though he didn't "function" for very long. <grrr>

3) Once the FC was cast, anyone who had known where the Potters lived (presumably they were in their own home in Godric's Hollow) would still know where the Potters were - they just simply would not be able to see them, hear them, smell them, or what have you. It wouldn't matter whether you knew their address or not so there would be no reason for anyone to "forget" that information, as it would not do them any good anyway.

[Dumbledore] also must have had some reason for thinking that it was the Avada Kedavra curse in particular that Harry survived. As we have seen, magic leaves traces, and Dumbledore must have picked up traces of what Voldemort had done (including fleeing).Yes, I wonder what other things Dumbledore would have been able to sense if he actually did go to Godric's Hollow himself, perhaps after having left Harry with the Durselys. As much as he was able to make out in the horcrux cave, GH should have lit up like the Las Vegas strip for him.

---------

About Dumbledore not balking at the mention of Sirius being at Godric's Hollow, I think he may have suspected that someone other than Sirius was the SK. Most likely he would have thought Lupin was the SK. (Would it have been possible for James to be the SK? Can one of the subjects also be the SK?)

So if he thought Sirius wasn't the SK then why did Dumbledore not stand up for him when Sirius was sent to Azkaban? Well, Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters or being complicit in their deaths. He was sent to Azkaban for supposedly killing Peter and a dozen Muggles. The Muggles were very dead and nothing of Peter was left other than one finger. There were witnesses left who all thought they'd seen Sirius kill all those people, so it very much looked like Sirius had gone off the deep end about something Peter did. If Dumbledore didn't think Sirius was the SK, but Sirius was angry enough to kill Peter, angry enough to not even notice innocent bystanders, then Dumbledore would likely have immediately put two and two together - Peter, not Lupin, was the unknown SK. What I don't get is why Dumbledore would not have told Lupin years ago about his belief that, although "guilty" in the deaths of Peter and Muggles, Sirius had not been guilty of betraying their friends.

But I suppose it's like the following quote says:
Every time I think I found an explanation, I circle back around...Ain't that the ever loving truth!!!

Again, thanks Lady Lupin for the always engaging and often brilliant editorials!
:tu: :clap: :tu:

OldMrToad

March 20th, 2006, 2:00 am

A really excellent editorial! It does raise (or expose) a whole bunch of questions about the Fidelius charm. Geez, I hope JKR finds a way to answer them all..

And the responses have been great too.

I have ask Wimsey though. What's the canon for the following? I was unaware that the indicated wand was Lord Voldemort's.

How did Voldemort's wand get to Mr. Ollivander's pillow in his shop? and
How did Wormtail get Voldemort's wand back from the shop?

Did I miss something? Where in canon does it state that the "single wand lay on a faded purple cushion in the dusty window." (p63 UK PS) is Lord Voldemorts?

Not picking a fight, just curious.

The waiting for JKR to finish is agony, but Jo, don't rush for us, do it right.

OMT

notasquib

March 20th, 2006, 2:25 am

Nice job, as always! I think I am looking forward to Godric's Hollow more than almost anything else. A couple of quick thoughts:

I agree that Harry probably was "inside" the secret, since he lived in the house. If he knows what to look for, hopefully he can find the house easily.

As for Dumbledore, remember when he was in the cave and was able to find the secret entrance and the chain by just magically feeling around? Perhaps a wizard such as Dumbledore could have found it. Or, perhaps Dumbledore himself suggested to the Potters where they should hide.

Gmariam

March 20th, 2006, 4:28 am

Hi,
Am I still the only one who thinks the spell only applied to the Potters' actual bodies? :) I still don't see how it could really protect them if it only applied to Godric's Hollow, or their house. I think the spell applied to the Potters, no matter where they were. This of course would make it difficult for them to interact with anyone who didn't know the secret of their location ;) but if Voldemort had tried to kill you three times, wouldn't you be ready to take drastic measures to protect your family? I think only Peter could tell the secret of their location at any given time once the charm was cast: "The Potters are at home in Godric's Hollow." or "The Potters are on vacation in London" or "The Potters are at the mall." This makes them almost unplottable, in a way, and truly protects them, as far as I can tell.
It, of course, raises more questions. I still wonder why the charm didn't continue to protect Harry after the death of his parents. But seeing as its magic that can be easily explained for me. However, the biggest question of all remains: how did Dumbledore, Hagrid, and Black find out so quickly, and get to Godric's Hollow so soon? I haven't seen an explanation that quite makes sense to me yet, because I think it will be far more straightforward than we think. Or at least I hope so!
Fawkes?
And one more thing I really cannot begin to understand is - why in the world would Peter write down the secret?? Much of the discussion hinges on this and it makes no sense to me. It defeats the purpose of the charm! The only reason Dumbledore wrote it down for Harry in OotP was because he was avoiding Harry at the time. The note was immediately destroyed.
Now, I will admit that perhaps JKR threw this method of sharing the secret in as a clue; on the other had it could be one of those well-mentioned "red herrings." But even if Peter had written it down, then wouldn't it have been obvious that Peter was the Secret-Keeper and not Sirius? And this is simply not the case, as Dumbledore himself gave evidence that the Secret-Keeper was Black. Bewitching the note to look like Black's handwriting is too complicated. I still think it will be more straightforward, and so I am . . .
Still thinking,
~Gina :)

Mae

March 20th, 2006, 8:09 am

the purpose of the fidelus charm was to protect james and lily. i assumed that the moment the charm failed to do its work (aka, james and lily were killed), it was immediately lifted. thats what i thought anyway.

once the charm was lifted, hargid and/or dumbledore could easily locate godric's hollow. surely the explosion would have given them a few leads to where it was. after seeing or hearing the explosion, hagrid could have simply looked around the mess and found the destryed home. the reason why he could see it was because, as i assumed, the charm was lifted the moment the potters were killed.

at least, this is what i always told myself. the editorial offered much much more complex solutions, and my brain just doesnt work that way, to say the least. whenever i see a problem, i always try to come up with the simplest solution possible, and the charm being broken the moment it failed to do its job seemed the simplest.

plainlypotter

March 20th, 2006, 9:49 am

Interesting editorial , which has set my mind to different scenarios than I had considered before, and before I get caught up on the last three pages of comments and forget what nudged me to write this, I figured I'd better write this down - so if someone has already addressed this forgive me.

you comment on wormtail's lack of bravery , and point to his forfeiting his hand as a possible sign of being coerced. Lady lupin perhaps I am remembering the spell incorrectly, but didn't the flesh of the servant have to be given willingly? If V threatened wormtail his sacrifice would not have been a willing gesture. I think it more likely that V promised wormtail that if he cut off his hand, that V would replace it with something better - therefore the pleading wormtail recounts, the "you promised" referred to the hand that V magically produces.

I too am confused about how the wizarding world found out about the reverse Avada Kedavra curse , and the death of the potter's . It would indicate that someone either was at the scene or that the fidelus charm perhaps only covered Lily and James and therefore ended with their death for lack of reason for being, or if it covered all three, then perhaps the charm hide a particular location - say the note read the location of the potter's is #12 godric's hollow , and when the house was destroyed the charm broke. otherwise the charm would still be in existence and harry would not have been found without some kind of alarm going off. Of course the alarm could have been somehow attached to DD's watch - maaybe it acted like the weasley's clock. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense , but one thought keeps giving rise to six reasons why it couldn't work. I think the "alarm" watch would probably be the way to get snape off the hook for not rescuing harry if he too was present - no comment as far as wormtail's culpability he is beyond despicable. of course there is always DD's scar or long distance mind meld like the vulcans in star trek. I know that sounds pretty far fetched but it always intrigued me how Dumbledore could always figure out what harry was thinking even when he was not within harry's sight. of course there is always the picutres of famous hogwarts deceased headmasters - maybe one of the former headmasters of Hogwarts was a relative of James and he was present . so many possibilities , and still at least another year and a half to to wait for answers - sigh-I await book seven both with anticipation and sorrow.

Quidagis

March 20th, 2006, 12:34 pm

About Dumbledore not balking at the mention of Sirius being at Godric's Hollow, I think he may have suspected that someone other than Sirius was the SK. Most likely he would have thought Lupin was the SK. (Would it have been possible for James to be the SK? Can one of the subjects also be the SK?)

So if he thought Sirius wasn't the SK then why did Dumbledore not stand up for him when Sirius was sent to Azkaban? Well, Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters or being complicit in their deaths. He was sent to Azkaban for supposedly killing Peter and a dozen Muggles. The Muggles were very dead and nothing of Peter was left other than one finger. There were witnesses left who all thought they'd seen Sirius kill all those people, so it very much looked like Sirius had gone off the deep end about something Peter did. If Dumbledore didn't think Sirius was the SK, but Sirius was angry enough to kill Peter, angry enough to not even notice innocent bystanders, then Dumbledore would likely have immediately put two and two together - Peter, not Lupin, was the unknown SK. What I don't get is why Dumbledore would not have told Lupin years ago about his belief that, although "guilty" in the deaths of Peter and Muggles, Sirius had not been guilty of betraying their friends.
I agree that Sirius' supposedly killing Peter and all those Muggles changed Dumbledore's opinion of Sirius. I'm not so sure however that Dumbledore realized that Peter was the traitor. I think it's more likely that Dumbledore didn't know which one of the Potters' friend betrayed them until the confrontation between Sirius and Peter. As everybody seemed to have suspected Lupin to be the spy, Dumbledore could have assumed that Lupin had managed to pass a piece of paper with the secret written on it to Voldemort. Or Peter. But then Peter was 'murdered' by Sirius, who had pretended to be the Secret Keeper all the time. Imo, that settled things for Dumbledore: Sirius was the traitor, Peter a hero, Lupin a victim of Sirius' framing him. I can't imagine Dumbledore wouldn't have insisted on a trial for Sirius if things hadn't been very clear to him. If he had assumed that Peter was the traitor, there would have been a possibility that Sirius had acted in self-defence. Or some other extenuating circumstance.

Btw: Imo, the easiest and most logical explanation to the mystery why Dumbledore sent Hagrid and didn't go himself to Godric's Hollow in order to retrieve Harry is that Hagrid was told the secret (via a slip of paper) but Dumbeldore wasn't. Dumbledore obviously realized that something was very wrong, and I can't see him not checking himself if he had been able to. Or leaving Harry in the rubble when the person who betrayed the Potters could be around to pick him up at any time.

Wormtail is alive, so the Secret of the location of Godric's Hollow should still be safe with him. Is the Charm, then, still in place? Or does the lack of need for protection at Godric's Hollow nullify the Charm? Since James and Lily are dead and Harry is no longer there, did the Charm break? Or is Godric's Hollow only visible to Wormtail and Voldemort now?

Good questions, Lady Lupin. I used to think that something about the trust placed on the Secret Keeper being broken would break the Charm, but after reading the FAQ answer (and especially the lack of revelations about the goings-on with Godric's Hollow together with Jo's astonishment that we thought this was an interesting question) I reckon it's the first option: the Charm's still in place, but kind of pointless and ineffective.

Hagrid said that he managed to get Harry out of the house before the Muggles started swarming around. We can rely on Hagrid to give an accurate account of events, but not to understand the significance. The secret was that the Potters were hiding in their house at Godric's Hollow. Lily and James were dead (no longer in hiding), but Harry was still alive and hidden in the house, and only someone who was in on the secret could see him there. The moment Hagrid retrieved him, however, Harry was no longer hiding at Godric's Hollow. Thus, technically, the Charm wouldn't be broken at all, it just ceased to have an effect (hiding the house from view) because the secret that's hidden inside Wormtail's soul no longer has a basis in reality.

Oceania

March 20th, 2006, 1:09 pm

Lady Lupin---great editorial and great questions!

Personally, I've gotten so used to JKR's crazy twists, and this situation is so complicated, that I won't dare try and figure it all out. Honestly, I can't for the life of me, figure out how exactly it all went down. There are too many possibilities, each as unlikely as the next.

The entire Order of the Phoenix know that James and Lily are at Godric's Hollow, but not the exact address. Only James, Lily, Harry, Sirius and Peter know that. However, there are Order members stationed in the village in case of emergency. We have seen this in both OotP and HBP. Hagrid was stationed there on the night in question-bold mine

Now here is a reply I can get behind...it may only reveal a small part of the story, but---it seems entirely plausible to me. As so many people say, the simplest explanation is best. Hagrid retrieved Harry because he was already in the area! When the Fidelius charm was broken (as I believe it was once the Potters were killed and the house destroyed) then Hagrid, (and maybe other Order members?) could see what happened, and searched the rubble.

Dogbert

March 20th, 2006, 3:19 pm

...
Harry should be able to find something there but will also want to go the his parents graves (if they had some) for closure. He needs to grieve.
That's only natural and I can't understand why he hasn't asked Dumbledore to take him there before this.

I don't understand why Harry hasn't done more to find out about his parents. He seems to know next to nothing about them.

xodraco4everxo

March 20th, 2006, 4:43 pm

my question is how would Peter even know he needed to target Percy Weasley? (nevermind the logical aspects of how he would find him) unless, Jo desides to bring back time travel devices to go into the future to find out that Ron meets Harry and Percy gives Ron his rat which happens to be Peter except not really....... see it makes no sense! maybe this is just a plot device, but it feels really out of place. a lot sloppier than Jo's style. oh well, one more book in which to wrap it all up! (is it just me, or is this book going to be drowning in its own backstory??)

soccerDM:
"In HBP, everyone knows about Wormtails involvement in what happened that night, but maybe not to the greatest extent."

are you referring to the scene in "The Other Minister"? a lot of speculation has occured on the topic of whether or not Sirius's innocense was public knowledge. i think not. they dont want to be like "oh sorry guys, the evil dementors stressed everyone out a few years back by floating around eerily, but we were looking for the worng person, so sorry for the trouble. hope you dont mind!" not likely! also, they have been locking up innocent people like Stan Shunpike. if they are willing to do that to make it look like they are making progress, they are not about to even consider admitting to the Sirius/Peter debacle when they have no reason to.

Wimsey

March 20th, 2006, 5:33 pm

I have ask Wimsey though. What's the canon for the following? I was unaware that the indicated wand was Lord Voldemort's.
.....
Did I miss something? Where in canon does it state that the "single wand lay on a faded purple cushion in the dusty window." (p63 UK PS) is Lord Voldemorts?

There is nothing whatsoever in the canon to support the notion that the wand on display at Olivander's was Voldemort's. It is pure fan-fiction. (I was merely commenting on the fact that Pettigrew had the wand; where he kept it is unknown, and it probably will not work it's way into VII as it seems improbable that it will be part of the story or the plot.)

There is another purely fan-fiction idea that the wand was Ravenclaw's, and that this is the unknown Horcrux. Of course, in the fan-fictions, Ravenclaw was leaving junk everywhere and Dumbledore was a bit of an idiot for not noticing it, as he probably tripped over Ravenclaw's this or Ravenclaw's that 5 times a day....

Then, there is the common sense idea: just as a bike shop has a bike or two in the window, or a just as a music shop will have a guitar and/or a violin in the window, a wand shop just might have a wand in the window.......

When the Fidelius charm was broken (as I believe it was once the Potters were killed and the house destroyed) then Hagrid, (and maybe other Order members?) could see what happened, and searched the rubble.

Given what JKR said, the charm was not broken. The only thing that changed was that the secret was gone: the Potters no longer were hiding at Godric's Hollow.

The simplest explanation is that some members of the Order that the Potters trusted were given the secret and Hagrid and Dumbledore would have been among those members. They obviously were informed in such a way that they did not know it was Pettigrew who was telling them, but JKR has shown us how that could be done quite without even using magic.

As for the situation being complicated..... I doubt that it is. I expect that there will be one or two things that explain everything involved. JKR almost always does that: present a situation that looks complicated only to reveal that it is all quite simple: A, B, C, D and E happened because of X, not A happened because of X, B happened because of Y, C happened because of Z, etc...

The trick is, what is the "X" that will explain all of the ABC's?

I don't understand why Harry hasn't done more to find out about his parents. He seems to know next to nothing about them.

Harry probably knows a good deal more about them than is in the narrative. For example, he knew that they were buried at Godric's Hollow, but that never was state in any of the prior narratives. Although JKR has occassionaly lapsed (*cough* OotP *cough*), she usually does not provide us with too much extraneous narrative. Harry learning about his parents from Sirius or Lupin, for example, would not merit inclusion in a book because it would not contribute to story or plot, or even to character development.

hankevans42

March 20th, 2006, 5:57 pm

I love reading your editorials Lady Lupin, another great one!

Your editorial made me think about something (as they usually do) and I wanted to throw it out there for others to think about. What if Voldemort had used the fidelius charm to hide the location of his horcruxes and made himself the secret keeper? All he would have to do is not tell anybody where they are, and he would never die. Even if his body was vaporized his soul would still be floating around thanks to the horcruxes and the fidelius charm would still be intact (since he's not dead) and nobody could ever find them. It's off topic, I know, but it made me think.

frizzle

March 20th, 2006, 8:21 pm

Yikes! This is almost too complex for my little brain to absorb! Lady Lupin and Everyone: WOW! Nevertheless, I've been following the commentary and can offer these crumbs:

1) SeversusSupporters' ideas are intriguing except for the problem that the sequence of events depends upon Snape telling DD the secret. As I understand it, the whole point of the Fidelus Charm is that ONLY the secret-keeper (in this case, Wormtail) can share the secret. We even have the example in canon of Snape being asked to tell the DEs where the OotP's headquarters is, and Snape replying that he can't tell because he's not the secret-keeper.

2) JKR has given us the "parallel secrets" of the location of the Potter's home and the location of the OotP headquarters. With the headquarters, we know (because we are "shown" Moody revealing DD's note to Harry) that the secret is the actual address. Most likely, this is Jo's way of telling us that the secret of Godric's Hollow is the exact address of the house. Even though the the house no longer exists (or even the ruins, probably), the address exists.

3) We know from Jo's response that the status of the secret remains as it was the day the secret-keeper died. She tells us only because that is what she was asked. But, Wormtail was the Potter's secret-keeper, and he is still alive, so he still IS the secret-keeper of the Potter's address in Godric's Hollow. Why ask? This is probably why Jo was surprised at people wanting to know the answer to that question. Her head was already in Book 7; we were still writhing with the tangles of Book 6, thinking about DD and 12 Grimmauld Place.

4) But if Wormtail is still the secret-keeper, how will Harry find the address? I see two possibilities, one is logical and a bit boring; the other much more fun but more far-fetched.

First, we know from Hagrid that Muggles started to gather at the ruins of the house, so people there knew where the house was. Harry could simply go to GH, ask some old-timers for directions (that is, if a man ever does such a thing...probably Hermione will have to actually ask!) and find the house easily. (Clearly, this is the boring possibility.) This is what I'd always thought would happen before all this secret-keeper speculation arose.

My second theory is based on the idea that although Harry was a toddler, he had knowledge of the location of the house. To find the address of the house, he needs to retrieve his own memory of it! How can he do this? Back to Hogwarts and DD's penseive! Harry will either ask Slughorn to teach him how to retrieve a memory, OR the ancient runes written around the perimeter of the penseive are actually instructions about how to retrieve a memory and use the pensieve to "see" them, which Hermione will read for Harry.

5) Regarding Snape: My guess is that Snape was at the scene when Voldemort confronted the Potters. V maybe wanted someone competent (i.e., not only Wormtail) to be there in case something happened (for example, members of the Order show up, or somehow James or Lily defy him again) and he needed an extra hand. My guess is that, eventually, we'll learn that Snape was the one who told DD (leaving the horrific scene quickly, by apparating) what had happened there; another reason DD trusted him. Whoever pointed out that Snape was already a Hogwarts professor whose absence would have been noticed on Halloween: this is a good point. But, I think that DD's "constant vigilance" regarding young Harry (and no doubt, young Neville) would have prompted him to give Snape leave for that evening when Snape had told him where the Dark Lord had asked him to accompany him.

6) miscellaneous Snape concept: For a long time, I've thought that it will be revealed that Snape has masqueraded as someone - most likely Dumbledore - by using Polyjuice potion. There is just too much use of Polyjuice for the Potions Master Himself to not use it! For example, there are a few scenes in PoA where Dumbledore doesn't really act like Dd. And there are others scattered about the books. In particular, this could be THE ANSWER to the conundrum about DD's utterly confusing (to we poor readers) "gleam of triumph" (or is it "glint of triumph"?). But, I guess this is a subject for an entirely separate editorial of my own....

hcnbedbugs

March 20th, 2006, 9:28 pm

My last post somehow was cut off mid transmission - it seems to happen occasionally - anyhow I can't imagine prisoners in Azkaban gettiing the daily newspapers so how did Sirius really find out about Peter Pettigrew being Scabbers? Methinks "something stinks in Denmark and it ain't the fish!" Please don't ask me where this saying originated as I don't really know but I love saying it!

No, Sirius did not get a daily news paper in Azkaban. He told Lupin in the Sheiking Shack that he got the paper from Fudge when he was there to inspect the prison.

cal1

March 20th, 2006, 10:08 pm

When JKR wrote the first book,I don't think she had all the details squared off.As the series progressed,and more people like us wanted to know "why",she had to come up with good answears,making rules as she went.The good thing is that she is now a better writer and certainly will think of good answears to our many magical inquiries or she can check out the many posts writen about her caracters.

Strider62442

March 20th, 2006, 10:21 pm

The Charm is meant for the concealment of a piece of information in a single living soul according to the books. Accordint to Flitwick, even if voldemort was looking into the potter's sitting room window he wouldnt be able to find them. This implies that their house could still be visible while they could not. This could further imply that the secret wormtail carried was not of the location of godrics hollow (which is apparently a village and couldnt be hidden anyway) or the potters' house, but some information that concealed the potters themselves. In OotP we get a view as to how the process worked with the charm. That secret was the concealment of a building, which couldnt be viewed unless the person had comprehended an either verbal or written message from Dumbledore, the secret keeper. With the Wormtail secret, it had to be different. How would muggles swarm around the burning house if it wasnt visible? if according to JKR the secret can die with the keeper (which was completely the opposite of what i thought she would say, and makes one of harry's key assets, grimauld place, essentially useless.) than surely a fire wouldnt break the charm.

Based on what flitwick said in PoA and its inconsistancy with what we saw in OotP, I think its possible that he content of the secret Wormtail held was something other than the location of the potters' hideout. But it seems like its a physical impossibility to describe that in words. How is it possible to conceal where a person is according to flitwick's info in poa, without concealing where that person is? Its impossible.

I think JKR has been cornered at last into an impossible contradiction within the plot. I dont think an explanation like "the muggles could see the fire because the house burned and therefore no longer existed, releasing the secret" is gonna work for me; that sounds like politician talk. I think what Flitwick said in PoA is gonna have to be removed because what happens in OotP proves the impossibility of what he says.

xodraco4everxo

March 20th, 2006, 10:33 pm

i think that dumbledorw wouldnt have been dumb enough to only protect lily & james, but harry, too. that would defeat the entire prupose for going into hiding, since voldie was after their son. or was the prediction made after the charm?? this could be a major plot point. i am willing to bet the prophesy prompted them into hiding because dumbledore told them. maybe that is why lily had sacrificed ehrself for harry, knowing the protection it would create. there was no reason for her to die, because either way voldie would have come after harry.

KaleeyJ

March 20th, 2006, 11:31 pm

I was WONDERING when someone would do an article on this!!! The fact that Dumbledore didn't bat an eye when Hagrid told him about Sirius showing up for baby Harry always bugged me. He swore to the ministry that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper - he had to have done this after the attack, since one wouldn't want to make an announcement like that. Several people in Harry Potter for Grown Ups Yahoo group tried to convince me that Dumbledore was just playing it cool, and that maybe Hagrid didn't know about the Fidelius charm - that seems plausible to me, since Hagrid might accidently let the SK's name slip after a few drinks. But Dumbledore didn't have a bit of reaction. Seemed weird.

On another note, I always kinda figured that the F Charm had to have three parts: a concealer, a concealed, and a location. If any of the three were somehow removed from the picture, the charm would dissolve. It very nicely explains Hagrid being able to find the boy - Occam's Razor is our friend, folks. That always was my theory.

And as for Dumbledore knowing about the Potter's demise, I actually was writing an editorial for the Burrow recently - it fell apart when I couldn't devote the time, but - what if certain items worked through the charm? I saw the suggestion of the Magical watch, or a clock like the Weasleys have. It could have sounded an alarm when there was trouble. Or maybe something to let Dumbledore know in some way that the F Charm was broken, and that Harry was in great danger. He sent Hagrid - someone no one would mess with - to get the baby.

What I always wondered in the Lost Day Conspiracy is that Dumbledore somehow placed the "family protection" on Harry - between the time the Potters were killed (otherwise there would be no point to include Petunia in the protection - she didn't even like the boy) and the time when Dumbledore showed up on Privet Drive.

Jo is driving me mad with this - someone mentioned Hannibal the Cannibal and a lot of teasing - she must be laughing her tush off at all of us... when she isn't writing furiously, of course.

~KaleeyJ, hard at work on her ficcy for fanfiction.net - for anyone who wants to be a beta, I'd appreciate it! Email me at:
kaleeyj@gmail.com

simplybecky

March 20th, 2006, 11:55 pm

So many new questions are spinning in my mind right now. Absolutely brilliant thought processes in this editorial! Really very intriguing. I haven't had time to read the rest of the comments but when I have the time I will catch up...I definitely like where this is headed.

As I was reading, a thought came to my mind about how Harry might find the location of Godric's Hollow, if it is still in fact protected by the Fidellius Charm. Suppose Dumbledore did have the location of the Potters revealed to him and he thought the note had been from Sirius. With his search for Voldemort's horcruxes, I find it very plausible that Dumbledore would have been poring over his own thoughts in connection to everything Voldemort/Wormtail/the Potters, etc. And to me, that means the Pensieve! Might that not mean that, left in that wonderful tool, there might be a memory of a piece of paper with the location of Godric's Hollow written on it? This one really has me thinking here...

Pixydust

March 21st, 2006, 12:33 am

:tu: This was a nice editorial. It is nice that you try to put this into a picture of what may have happened.

Even more disturbingly, if Snape knew, and if Wormtail told him directly and not through a written note, that means that Snape knew all along that Sirius was innocent, and he said nothing. Snape is, whether you believe him to be loyal to Dumbledore or not, not a nice man. But if he allowed Sirius to go to Azkaban for twelve years, and then attempted to have him kissed by a Dementor while knowing him to be innocent, it will be very hard for me to ever have any sympathy for him, regardless what else he does.

I have allways suspected that Snape knew Sirius was innocent. I believe Snape was at Godric's Hollow that night. It may unfold he was just outside and had no part of what occured inside. What if Snape killed the crowd outside and Peter just cut off his finger and ran? Better for him with Peter gone and thought dead. Snape certainly may have been part of Sirius's death as well. He hates Sirius because he tried to get him killed. I don't think that it is a coincidece that those who caused hurt to Snape in the past are dead. Lupin was found out. That was Snape.:grumble:

There was another person I've wanted to take a closer look at. Fudge had Sirius thrown in prison without a trial. Ever wonder about this git? A well paid pawn at the least. Sorry just rambling now....

Emerald63

March 21st, 2006, 1:30 am

Am I still the only one who thinks the spell only applied to the Potters' actual bodies? I still don't see how it could really protect them if it only applied to Godric's Hollow, or their house. I think the spell applied to the Potters, no matter where they were. This of course would make it difficult for them to interact with anyone who didn't know the secret of their location but if Voldemort had tried to kill you three times, wouldn't you be ready to take drastic measures to protect your family? I think only Peter could tell the secret of their location at any given time once the charm was cast: "The Potters are at home in Godric's Hollow." or "The Potters are on vacation in London" or "The Potters are at the mall." This makes them almost unplottable, in a way, and truly protects them, as far as I can tell.No, you're not the only one. The two authors of the article in the HP Encyclopedia Opinion section at MuggleNet agree with you.

Besides the awful possibility of a SK dying and leaving the protected persons forever unreachable by all who had not been told the secret, I do have one other reason for my not agreeing with this scenario is, though. If the Potters could be out and about wherever they pleased, why in the world were they "in hiding"? And, more to the point, why would they stay in the village where they seemed to have lived on a regular basis? Wouldn't they have gone somewhere completely unexpected to increase the unlikelihood of being found? But if the charm had to be on them AND the place they were hiding in, then I could see them choosing the place where they were most comfortable, their own home.

Not saying at all that you're wrong or that I'm right. Chances are with JKR we're both wide of the mark by several thousand miles! :lol: Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, though. :)

I agree that Sirius' supposedly killing Peter and all those Muggles changed Dumbledore's opinion of Sirius. I'm not so sure however that Dumbledore realized that Peter was the traitor. I think it's more likely that Dumbledore didn't know which one of the Potters' friend betrayed them until the confrontation between Sirius and Peter. As everybody seemed to have suspected Lupin to be the spy, Dumbledore could have assumed that Lupin had managed to pass a piece of paper with the secret written on it to Voldemort. Or Peter. But then Peter was 'murdered' by Sirius, who had pretended to be the Secret Keeper all the time. Imo, that settled things for Dumbledore: Sirius was the traitor, Peter a hero, Lupin a victim of Sirius' framing him. I can't imagine Dumbledore wouldn't have insisted on a trial for Sirius if things hadn't been very clear to him. If he had assumed that Peter was the traitor, there would have been a possibility that Sirius had acted in self-defence. Or some other extenuating circumstance.The reason I felt Dumbledore wouldn't have thought Sirius the SK, at least at first, was because he didn't balk at the mention of Sirius being at Godric's Hollow, or at Hagrid being on his motorbike, or, most importantly, that Hagrid planned to return the bike. Don't you suppose that if Dumbledore had any suspicion that Sirius was guilty of betraying the Potters he would have gone with Hagrid in order to catch Sirius? Why would he have let Hagrid just blithely go alone to return a belonging to a man who might have just sent two people to their deaths at the hands of Voldemort? That is just too weird for me. :shrug:

Now maybe later, after the Muggle massacre, he might have had second thoughts and gone back to believing Sirius really had been the SK. But I can't square that opinion from Dumbledore at first, not considering the business with the motorbike.

Dumbledore obviously realized that something was very wrong, and I can't see him not checking himself if he had been able to. Or leaving Harry in the rubble when the person who betrayed the Potters could be around to pick him up at any time.If you consider the possibility (probability?) that there were Order members already in Godric's Hollow, then someone probably already knew (and informed Dumbledore, via patronus) that the Potters were dead and that whoever might have been with Voldemort had fled, and that there was no sign of the Big Bad, one way or the other. If you consider that somehow the charm had been broken, or rendered ineffective, or whatever you want to call it, then DD's watcher(s) also knew that Harry was alive and safe. The bigger concern at that moment, I think, was to finish the preparations for a much safer place to send Harry to. And who better to do that than DD?

Seems to me Dumbledore, by not going to the scene himself, almost certainly had to have known these things or, as you say, he would have acted differently. As for V's accomplice(s), other Order members might have gone in pursuit of anyone they saw leaving the scene, although Wormtail (and anyone else) might have run off before the watcher(s) made it to the site of the explosion.

"Wormtail's soul"Technically, yeah, he had to have one to make the charm work, but still...... <shudder at the concept>

What if Voldemort had used the fidelius charm to hide the location of his horcruxes and made himself the secret keeper? All he would have to do is not tell anybody where they are, and he would never die. Even if his body was vaporized his soul would still be floating around thanks to the horcruxes and the fidelius charm would still be intact (since he's not dead) and nobody could ever find them. It's off topic, I know, but it made me think.What a truly horrid possibility! But something Voldemort would be very likely to do. Luckily for us - and Harry - it would seem this is one contingency Voldemort seems not to have thought of! And you know, sometimes off topic comments produce an extremely valid line of reasoning that unearths a major clue. I for one don't mind your addition at all. :tu:

Wormtail was the Potter's secret-keeper, and he is still alive, so he still IS the secret-keeper of the Potter's address in Godric's Hollow.If you're right, then Hagrid had to have been told or shown in a note where the Potters were. However, I'm with those who feel this wasn't likely. Considering they had dismissed Dumbledore's offer to be SK, I think the Potters probably did not have Peter inform him, or his helper Hagrid, of their location. If I'm right, then something other than Peter divulging the secret had to have caused Harry to be visible so he could be rescued. Even though Jo has not said so I think there is some piece of rather simple reasoning that has already shown us that this was true. My guess is that the hiding place was destroyed or that Peter betrayed the secret with the intent of causing harm. The FAQ Poll response makes it seem like that's not what happened, but there are just way too many complications otherwise. I'm betting Jo once again tailored her response to a question very, very carefully, so as not to let us figure out too much prematurely. At any rate, maybe we'll find out in Book 7 - I sure hope so!

My guess is that, eventually, we'll learn that Snape was the one who told Dumbledore (leaving the horrific scene quickly, by apparating) what had happened there; another reason Dumbledore trusted him.Are you saying that Snape would have gone to GH without telling Dumbledore before the fact, waiting to mention it till it was too late? Well, if he weren't told where they were going, maybe. But if the killing party apparated to Godric's Hollow, Snape would have known before they ever left where they were headed. You have to know where to "aim" when apparating. All he had to do was apparate to Hogsmeade instead, run up to the school and summon Dumbledore et al to rush to the Potters' aid. Snape's double role would have been over, but the Potters might have been saved, Voldemort might have even been badly injured, and Snape would have everyone's protection, not just trusting Dumbledore's. Even if the killing party hadn't apparated to GH, the moment they got to their destination and Snape realized what that meant, again, he could have just zipped off for help. If he was there and he didn't go for help before the fact, I can't imagine him being enough of Dumbledore's Man to tell him afterward. But maybe that's just me.....

As I was reading, a thought came to my mind about how Harry might find the location of Godric's Hollow, if it is still in fact protected by the Fidellius Charm. Suppose Dumbledore did have the location of the Potters revealed to him and he thought the note had been from Sirius. With his search for Voldemort's horcruxes, I find it very plausible that Dumbledore would have been poring over his own thoughts in connection to everything Voldemort/Wormtail/the Potters, etc. And to me, that means the Pensieve! Might that not mean that, left in that wonderful tool, there might be a memory of a piece of paper with the location of Godric's Hollow written on it? This one really has me thinking here...Oh Good Lord! What a thought.... Harry can find out who knows what in that pensieve. I'd been thinking there was no way the Secret could still be in effect. But, if it is (and I still don't think so), would Harry reading a memory note inside the pensieve have the same effect as if he read a real physical note? As long as what he was seeing in there had been written by the hand of the SK, would it still work??? Awesome concept, simplybecky! :tu: :tu:

Wimsey

March 21st, 2006, 1:53 am

4) But if Wormtail is still the secret-keeper, how will Harry find the address? I see two possibilities, one is logical and a bit boring; the other much more fun but more far-fetched.

Actually, the "address" was not the secret. The secret was, where are the Potters hiding? Harry knows where his parents were hiding. Time and space matter in magic, and because his parents no longer are hiding, there no longer is a secret.

5) Regarding Snape: My guess is that Snape was at the scene when Voldemort confronted the Potters.

This seems implausible. All the evidence strongly suggests that Snape had no idea that Pettigrew was the traitor: he firmly believes that it is Black in PoA. Snape's reactions then and his motives for telling Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters in the first place are much better explained by Snape being genuinely angry about the Potter's betrayal. Remember, Dumbledore genuinely trusted Snape but refused to tell Harry why. Remember also that we are to learn something very surprising about Lily. Note also that never has Snape disparaged Lily in Harry's presence, even though he never hesitates to disparage Harry's father, godfather, friends, etc. This all would be neatly (and simply) explained by Snape and Lily having been friends. Snape might have hated James, but he genuinely cared about Lily. (This is not to say that Snape was in love with Lily, although he might have been.)

Given that we know that Pettigrew must have been there (it was Pettigrew who had Voldemort's wand), this pretty much precludes Snape's presence.

My guess is that, eventually, we'll learn that Snape was the one who told DD (leaving the horrific scene quickly, by apparating) what had happened there; another reason DD trusted him.

Hagrid was there, so it is simplest to assume that he somehow communicated this to Dumbledore.

6) miscellaneous Snape concept: For a long time, I've thought that it will be revealed that Snape has masqueraded as someone - most likely Dumbledore - by using Polyjuice potion. .... For example, there are a few scenes in PoA where Dumbledore doesn't really act like Dd. And there are others scattered about the books. In particular, this could be THE ANSWER to the conundrum about DD's utterly confusing (to we poor readers) "gleam of triumph" (or is it "glint of triumph"?). But, I guess this is a subject for an entirely separate editorial of my own....

That cannot be it: we see Dumbledore and Snape together during those scenes. Also, Dumbledore NEVER has acted like Snape. Snape can barely hide his contempt for Harry on the best of occassions, and Snape truly believes that there is nothing special about Harry. After all, Snape does not know the whole prophecy. Conversely, Dumbledore never has shown anything but sympathy and empathy for Harry.

As for the gleam of triumph, look to the fact that Voldemort's body might have been vaccinated against Lily's protection, but that this vaccine might come back to hurt Voldemort in the end. Remember, the connection between Harry and Voldemort will be critical.

As I so often state, JKR's brilliance is in the simplicity of her plots. We have X mysteries but instead of X explanations, only 1 or 2 reasons for all of those things. Look to answers that explain many, sometimes apparently unrelated things: if JKR then fools you, it is because she has an answer that explains even more than yours! (This principle is called Occam's Razor, by the way: I recommend it for all attempts to solve mysteries.)

SoccerDM

March 21st, 2006, 5:07 am

OK. I am starting to get really tired of the argument of whether or not the Fidelius Charm hides the People or the Place upon which the secret is meant.

Start QUOTE from HP PoA (page 205)---
"An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily, "involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find-- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" End Quote HP PoA(page 205)

This clearly, unmistakably, unarguably, and positivly means that A. The house they were stay/hidding in COULD be seen by anyone. and B. The charm hides the PEOPLE, so the people being protected can not be seen.

Im hoping that people will see the point here. And if i could reiderate what Wimsey has been saying, JKR writes simplisticly and probably doesn't want people to overthink on these details. (I know I probably misspelled a lot of words. sorry)

HFFLPFF

March 21st, 2006, 5:49 am

Well thought editorial, although I must disagree. The Fidelus Charm does not make a house/place invisible. 12 Grimmauld place has a number of other spells placed upon it that make it unplottable, possibly invisible, etc. However, the Fidelus Charm that Dumbledore enacted only keeps the secret that "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is 12 Grimmauld Place." That is the only secret. The house itself is not made secret by the Charm, only that it is the headquarters. Notice that the only thing Dumbledore had to tell Harry is that the house is being used as headquarters, not that it exists, where it is, etc.
Likewise, I think that the only secret that Wormtail kept is that the Potters were hiding in Godric's Hollow. The F Charm that made him secret-keeper did not make the town invisible, but simply hid the fact that the Potters were in hiding there. Thus, another wizard could have been present in the Hollow at the time of the attack (say Snape at Voldemort's orders). The fact that the attack had happened and the house was destroyed would not be protected by the Fidelus Charm, so Snape could report to Dumbledore the events of that tragic night. Hence, the "lost day" was because Snape had to find Dumbledore and tell him of the events and that Harry was still alive, none of which would have been protected by the F Charm. Additionally, this scenario provides us with a reason that Dumbledore would trust Snape: he told him about Voldemort's raid and the fact that Harry was still alive.
Again, I thought the editorial was well thought-out, except that you missed this crucial fact. A Fidelus Charm only makes one thing a secret. If the secret is that a cabinet is used as a hiding place for a necklace, it does not make the cabinet undetectable. It simply means that the secret-keeper is the only person who can say "the necklace is hidden in the cabinet." That is all the Fidelus Charm protects.

waggawaggawer

March 21st, 2006, 7:58 am

Sorry, but you've lost me with this one. What would Snape, no matter whose side he was on, have to do with who the SK was? The Marauders wanted nothing to do with Snape.

If you had read my entire post # 36 you would have seen I quoted from an earlier post which suggested a change of SK was possible, which IMHO might explain a few conundrums. Especially why everyone believed that Sirius was the SK, even when he wasn't, that Sirius was able to find out where Peter Pettigrew had gone, and why it was possible to retrieve Harry from the ruins of Godric's Hollow. More particularly why Dumbledore did not appear to have intervened on Sirius' behalf at any time, if he even suspected that Sirius was innocent of any of the charges. According to Sirius, he, himself, changed SK's because he thought it was too obvious that he was the secret keeper, but was there a specific reason why he would think so?

I'd say Snape would have had a good deal to do with everything that happened, whether or not he was at Godric's Hollow the night Voldemort called, since he was the spy who overheard the prophecy, passed part of it onto Voldemort, and then went to Hogwarts to be Potions master. Even if he wanted nothing further to do with the Marauders, nor they with him, he had certainly set the wheels in motion which put the Potters, in particular, in deadly danger. Which is why they needed a secret keeper at all, let alone a change of secret keeper whether or not they had one before. And it is also why Harry accused Snape of murdering James, Harry's Dad, in the 27th chapter of Half Blood Prince.

It seems that according to HP Lexicon the following time line might be applicable.

1. Trelawney made the prophecy in the beginning of 1980 - more likely December 1979, and Harry was born July 31, 1980.

2. Pettigrew wasn't made a secret keeper until October 24, 1981 only a week before the Potter's deaths. Were the Potters only in hiding for that week, or were they in hiding for much longer with a different secret-keeper? If the latter, what made all of them change their minds?

3. Snape applied for the DADA teaching position 2 months before Voldemort fell and therefore before Pettigrew was made a secret keeper. Why did he then claim to Bellatrix at Spinners End, that he had gone to Dumbledore with a tale of deepest remorse, presumably about betraying the Potters, before such events even happened?

The question is, when exactly did Snape tell Voldemort about the prophecy? The latest Snape could have done so was at least two months previously, before he went to Hogwarts. If Voldemort was told about the prophecy earlier than that, why then did Voldemort wait until 31 October 1981 if he knew about it for much more than two months? My guess is that Snape's telling the prophecy might have set in train, not only LV's going after the Potters, but also, Sirius' desire to change the SK to Pettigrew, a less likely SK. Another question is, how long did it take for Pettigrew to go to Voldemort?

So if he thought Sirius wasn't the SK then why did Dumbledore not stand up for him when Sirius was sent to Azkaban? Well, Sirius wasn't sent to Azkaban for betraying the Potters or being complicit in their deaths. He was sent to Azkaban for supposedly killing Peter and a dozen Muggles. The Muggles were very dead and nothing of Peter was left other than one finger. There were witnesses left who all thought they'd seen Sirius kill all those people, so it very much looked like Sirius had gone off the deep end about something Peter did. If Dumbledore didn't think Sirius was the SK, but Sirius was angry enough to kill Peter, angry enough to not even notice innocent bystanders, then Dumbledore would likely have immediately put two and two together - Peter, not Lupin, was the unknown SK. What I don't get is why Dumbledore would not have told Lupin years ago about his belief that, although "guilty" in the deaths of Peter and Muggles, Sirius had not been guilty of betraying their friends.

I think you have given a partial answer to some of my earlier questions, but, like you, what I also don't get is Dumbledore's role in the events, and why he didn't confide in Lupin who he thought the secret keeper was. After all, Lupin didn't know either until he saw Pettigrew on the Marauders Map.

plainlypotter

March 21st, 2006, 8:15 am

I agree that Sirius' supposedly killing Peter and all those Muggles changed Dumbledore's opinion of Sirius. I'm not so sure however that Dumbledore realized that Peter was the traitor. I think it's more likely that Dumbledore didn't know which one of the Potters' friend betrayed them until the confrontation between Sirius and Peter. As everybody seemed to have suspected Lupin to be the spy, Dumbledore could have assumed that Lupin had managed to pass a piece of paper with the secret written on it to Voldemort. Or Peter. But then Peter was 'murdered' by Sirius, who had pretended to be the Secret Keeper all the time. Imo, that settled things for Dumbledore: Sirius was the traitor, Peter a hero, Lupin a victim of Sirius' framing him. I can't imagine Dumbledore wouldn't have insisted on a trial for Sirius if things hadn't been very clear to him. If he had assumed that Peter was the traitor, there would have been a possibility that Sirius had acted in self-defence. Or some other extenuating circumstance.

Btw: Imo, the easiest and most logical explanation to the mystery why Dumbledore sent Hagrid and didn't go himself to Godric's Hollow in order to retrieve Harry is that Hagrid was told the secret (via a slip of paper) but Dumbeldore wasn't. Dumbledore obviously realized that something was very wrong, and I can't see him not checking himself if he had been able to. Or leaving Harry in the rubble when the person who betrayed the Potters could be around to pick him up at any time.

Good questions, Lady Lupin. I used to think that something about the trust placed on the Secret Keeper being broken would break the Charm, but after reading the FAQ answer (and especially the lack of revelations about the goings-on with Godric's Hollow together with Jo's astonishment that we thought this was an interesting question) I reckon it's the first option: the Charm's still in place, but kind of pointless and ineffective.

Hagrid said that he managed to get Harry out of the house before the Muggles started swarming around. We can rely on Hagrid to give an accurate account of events, but not to understand the significance. The secret was that the Potters were hiding in their house at Godric's Hollow. Lily and James were dead (no longer in hiding), but Harry was still alive and hidden in the house, and only someone who was in on the secret could see him there. The moment Hagrid retrieved him, however, Harry was no longer hiding at Godric's Hollow. Thus, technically, the Charm wouldn't be broken at all, it just ceased to have an effect (hiding the house from view) because the secret that's hidden inside Wormtail's soul no longer has a basis in reality.

taking this one step further do you think this means that when harry returns to godrics hollow the house will disappear again and only those who could see the house when Harry was a baby will be able to see the house and harry? It seemed to me from jkr's answer that this would be the case.

Quidagis

March 21st, 2006, 11:26 am

2) JKR has given us the "parallel secrets" of the location of the Potter's home and the location of the OotP headquarters. With the headquarters, we know (because we are "shown" Moody revealing DD's note to Harry) that the secret is the actual address. Most likely, this is Jo's way of telling us that the secret of Godric's Hollow is the exact address of the house. Even though the the house no longer exists (or even the ruins, probably), the address exists.
That's not quite correct. The secret in OotP is:

The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London. (p. 57)

It's not just an address, but the fact that the Headquarters of the Order is located there.

In HBP, Spinner's End, Bellatrix asks Snape about the whereabouts of the Order's Headquarters and Snape claims that he 'cannot speak the name of the place' (p. 35). It is not altogether clear there whether he can't speak the address at all or whether he just can't tell anyone about it in a way that would let on that it's being used as the Order's Headquarters. But as they can talk about the Headquarters of the Order (which is also mentioned in the secret) and as they're afraid that Bellatrix might turn up on #12's doorstep after Sirius' death, we can infer that the secret that's magically hidden isn't the place or the persons but the fact that the place is being used as Headquarters. We simply have to take it very literally: everything that's covered by the exact wording of the secret is magically hidden (a fact about two or more entities), but nothing more, especially not the entities involved (persons, organizations, objects or places).

The way I see it you can't directly hide things, places or persons with the Fidelius Charm, because something that exists can't be made a secret (at least not when the fact that it exists has been known by other people before). You can only hide something about them (a new fact) and try to choose the wording of the secret so well that the effects of the Charm are as far-reaching as possible.

According to the FAQ answer, the secret about GH was the 'location of a family in hiding'. There are four entities involved (the three Potters and their hiding place in Godric's Hollow). And two facts: 1. The Potters are in hiding. 2. Their hiding place is .... in Godric's Hollow.

If we assume that only the facts are hidden by the Fidelius Charm, the Charm would become ineffective the moment the last living Potter was no longer hiding there. And that's exactly what happened. As long as Harry was in the house, only Sirius, Voldemort, Wormtail and Hagrid had been able to come there. After he had been retrieved, the Muggle neighbours started to have a look.

if according to JKR the secret can die with the keeper (which was completely the opposite of what i thought she would say, and makes one of harry's key assets, grimauld place, essentially useless.) than surely a fire wouldnt break the charm.

Based on what flitwick said in PoA and its inconsistancy with what we saw in OotP, I think its possible that he content of the secret Wormtail held was something other than the location of the potters' hideout. But it seems like its a physical impossibility to describe that in words. How is it possible to conceal where a person is according to flitwick's info in poa, without concealing where that person is? Its impossible.

I think JKR has been cornered at last into an impossible contradiction within the plot. I dont think an explanation like "the muggles could see the fire because the house burned and therefore no longer existed, releasing the secret" is gonna work for me; that sounds like politician talk. I think what Flitwick said in PoA is gonna have to be removed because what happens in OotP proves the impossibility of what he says.
*puzzled* Jo said the opposite, that the secret does not die with the SK. I don't see a contradiction between the two secrets either, in fact, I think they work exactly the same way. The Fidelius Charm protects the secret information, which means that if you're looking for the Potters in Godric's Hollow or for the Headquarters of the Order (Harry has been told by Lupin that they were going to some sort of Headquarters, p. 49, OotP) in front of their hiding place, you'll see neither the place nor the persons. But if you stumble upon the place for some other reason, you can see it and enter it. Or if you meet the hidden people outside their protected hiding place, you'll see them. And you can talk about the Order or #12 Grimmauld Place, but not in a way that would connect the two of them in any way.

taking this one step further do you think this means that when harry returns to godrics hollow the house will disappear again and only those who could see the house when Harry was a baby will be able to see the house and harry? It seemed to me from jkr's answer that this would be the case.
Great idea. Yeah, I think Harry could hide in Godric's Hollow. From the Ministry for example. But it wouldn't be a good hiding place from Voldemort or Wormtail, they know about it. Unless Harry could bank on them never suspecting he'd use it in that way...

LovinLoony

March 21st, 2006, 4:15 pm

First, I would like to officially add my kudos to the vast body of compliments growing for Lady Lupin and her column. She is by far the most consistent and appealing editorialist on Mugglenet in my opinion, and I am always most impressed by her blend of thorough textual analysis with emotionally and psychologically resonant insight. I hope, too, that she does not go the way of so many other of our delightful columnists, and continues to regularly post articles (please, no six month breaks or column interruptions - my Mugglenet addiction couldn't bear it!).

So, forgive me, as I feel certain someone must have said this already (but I don't have time yet to read all the previous posts!) and I don't have my book with me - but I have it vaguely in my memory that the Godric's Hollow/Potter secret was (or could have been) about the location of the Potters, not the location of their house. Wasn't there something about people pressing their nose against the window and not being able to find them still? So it seems that the business of people being able to see and locate the Potter's house in Godric's Hollow after the event would be moot in that case - the Potter's were no longer (if we can assume that Harry was not "covered" by the secret, though I doubt any parent would let that slide...), and so both the house and the bodies of Lily and James would be relatively easy to locate (and if Harry was not covered by the secret, so would he).

Looking back to OotP, the information divulged on the note given to Harry was the address of the Black mansion, which (at least for me) begs the question of what the secret really was in that case. Was that specific location (the Black mansion) the secret, or was the location of the Order headquarters the secret? In any case, the key point to me is that the location of the members of the Order was not the secret, but had it been, then presumably one would be able to find the Black mansion but not be able to "find" the Order members there, unless told explicitly by the Secret-Keeper verbally or in note-form their location (i.e. the address). Such would be the case for the Potters as well, if their location as opposed to the location of their home was the secret.

khomagic

March 21st, 2006, 6:27 pm

My last post somehow was cut off mid transmission - it seems to happen occasionally - anyhow I can't imagine prisoners in Azkaban gettiing the daily newspapers so how did Sirius really find out about Peter Pettigrew being Scabbers? Methinks "something stinks in Denmark and it ain't the fish!" Please don't ask me where this saying originated as I don't really know but I love saying it!
Sirius got the paper from Fudge I think when he went to Azkaban to ask him about something. I believe he talks about seeing him when they are having the drink that Potter over hears in Prisoner of Azkaban. He would have already known Peter was a rat because he had helped him learn how to become one and spent at least one day a month with him as a rat from 5th year til graduation.

hcnbedbugs

March 21st, 2006, 6:33 pm

Sirius got the paper from Fudge I think when he went to Azkaban to ask him about something. I believe he talks about seeing him when they are having the drink that Potter over hears in Prisoner of Azkaban. He would have already known Peter was a rat because he had helped him learn how to become one and spent at least one day a month with him as a rat from 5th year til graduation.

Actually, Sirius tells Lupin in the sheiking shack that he got the news paper from fudge will he was at Azkaban to do an inspection.

khomagic

March 21st, 2006, 6:58 pm

First off, loved your editorial
However, as much as the problem of how Harry will find Godric's Hollow concerns me, I just got an idea from your essay that worries me more than that.
How did Voldemort's wand get to Mr. Ollivander's pillow in his shop? and
How did Wormtail get Voldemort's wand back from the shop?

First question first. Ollivander also knew the location of Godric's Hollow? He crusied over there to the place he shouldn't have known about and picked it up for the greater good? Or someone like Dumbledore gave it to him for safekeeping and he put it in his shop window? Something smells very fishy here.

Wormtail is apparently a pretty crusty wizard, I don't know how he would have pulled off a grand-scale burglary from Ollivander's on his own, especially as we've seen the lengths wizards can go to to keep something safe in HBP (and Ollivander sells wands, he'd know some funky spells if you ask me). But Wormtail at that stage was the only one who knew Voldemort was planning a reincarnation besides pseudo Moody.

Did 'Moody' get the wand? How would he get it to the graveyard for Wormtail to use coming up to the greatest school event for years? If he did it before the night in question, Ollivander would surely have reported a break in of this magnitude to Dumbeldore, who'd smell a rat (he he ok I meant that pun).

OK, so going on and on further than I meant to go, something's not not not right!

We have never been told in the books who's wand is in the window of Olivanders' shop so to say it was Voldemorts is pure speculation. There have been more than a few articles writen that ask where Voldemort's wand went as well as Lilly's, James and other people who were killed by the Death Eaters. The school of thought seems to be that Petigrew was with Voldemort or close at hand the night of the Godrics Hollow thing and took the wands and hid them. I don't even think Harry came back with Cedric's wand just his body. I don't think we have ever been told that Olivander knew where the Potters were, the implication is that very few people knew where they were. And even less knew that they had switched the secret keeper. Sirius knew they had switched of course and he probably knew where they were from Petigrew after the switch. I agree we do not know how Dumbledoor found out the location to send Hagrid to see what happened.

The way I read the info about the charm is if Pettigrew TOLD Voldemort the secret with his voice it was no longer a secret. The charm appears to be broken if the secret is no longer CONTAINED in that person. Dumbledoor NEVER says #12 Grimauld Place and the Head Quarters together. He says they have a question about #12 Grimauld Place to Harry in HBP. It's Harry that says they can keep using it as Headquarters...so I'm thinking from what I've read that because he isn't the Secret Keeper that doesn't count as saying it. But they had apparently ceased using it by then due to the possible problem so maybe that's part of it.

I have asked in response to another editorial if Harry would be able to find Godrics Hollow and been told yes but I'm still not convinced. I asked why no one ever talks about finding Voldemort's original body in the house. Without a good answer either.

Sirius tells us why Peter ended up with the Weasley's in POA since he was afraid of Voldemorts followers but still wanted to keep tabs on what was going on. Percy is nosy and full of information and secretive also. I'd like to know how/where Percy got hold of Scabbers too maybe we will find out in book 7 and maybe it's no longer important so we won't. I think that now Peter is keeping an eye on Snape for Voldemort not being watched by Snape.

AurorChick

March 21st, 2006, 7:49 pm

Ah! Fantastic discussion about a wonderful editorial!

May I add fuel to the fire?

I happen to believe that the destruction of the house did cause the FC to become ineffective. I know there is some discussion and disagreement about this, but here's my reasoning:

The house would have been invisible to all but those who were told of it's location. We know this through the scene in which Harry was taken to 12 Grimmauld Pl. Remember that it seemed to him that a house appeared in the gap between 11 and 13 as if it had inflated there.

I think most of us are in agreement that PP was with Voldemort on the night of the Potters' murder. This is important in that it comes back to the Sorting Hat not being completely wrong in placing him in Gryffendor.

Avadra Kedavra does not cause explosions. Someone or something else caused the house to be destroyed.

I believe that PP, seeing that the Potters were dead and their son was sitting helpless in a house that no one could see, felt remorse. Then, he destroyed the house in a manner that would draw people to the site and thereby save Harry.

PP has many faults. Well, duh! But, I think that JKR has a strong theme of redemption within this series and that she has created a hateable character in both PP and SS, each of whom, I believe, will be redeemed.

Sorry I don't have time to expand this further, but Life awaits!

KaleeyJ

March 21st, 2006, 8:18 pm

I'd also like to point out two things - I know I said three components in the F Charm - concealed, concealer, and location. This was my thinking before Jo's FAQ poll answer, and someone pointed out to me that my theory doesn't hold up with her explanation - that once the SK dies, the secret stays buried forever (hogwash, if you ask me - how can a non-living soul keep the secret?) But, what if once the SK died, the charm could be redone with a new person (a *living* one).

And another thought - contradicting myself now, I know, but:

Hagrid doesn't say *when* he got the motorcycle from "young Sirius Black." Perhaps that implies to Dumbledore or the reader that maybe Sirius had loaned it to him earlier? Perhaps when the charm was cast, maybe as more of a cover. If Sirius was going to go into hiding, the bike would sort of give him away. (I [WANT that bike!!!

(Me = harley fan) :) :) :D

Anyway, like my point above, I don't think Hagrid knew anything about the charm - he has a serious case of shock in POA when Fudge tells everyone - Hagrid didn't know about Sirius being the traitor, so he probably didn't know anything about the F Charm.

Dumbledore does say "No problems, then?" Maybe we aren't given anything but his words there for a reason.

Last but not least:
Jo is making some of this up as she goes along - some of the details had to change a bit between book 1 and right now, so she's allowed a little wiggle room. We're such die-hard detail drinkers, I wouldn't be surprised at all if she slipped a little.

And in response to AurorChick: Avada Kedavra does not cause explosions, that we know of. It also doesn't send bodies flying off rooftops. Oh, wait... What if the physical side effect of the spell depends on the power of the emotion when the person is casting it? In AK's case, it wouldn't make the person more dead, but perhaps it could send the body flying, etc, like with Dumbledore on the Astronomy Tower.

Voldy was feeling flat-out invincible when he send an Avada Kedavra at baby Harry - that's an emotional high that would top Mt. Everest. So when the curse bounced back, and hit him, but didn't finish the job - he didn't die - the rest of the spell's power had to go somewhere - thus demolishing the house.

AC, your idea works well too, and I can see it being used over mine. (My pal Occam would probably prefer it too.) But I just wanted to throw that out there.

~KJ

lukefrost90

March 21st, 2006, 9:09 pm

It is quite possible/probable that the charm broke the wormtail broke betrayed the potters!

square634

March 21st, 2006, 11:45 pm

Interesting points. I don't have much to add, other than on the idea of Snape being at Godric's Hollow. As Karkaroff says in GoF, Voldemort likes to operate without all of the Death Eaters knowing everyone else's identity. Therefore, it could make sense for Voldemort to have heard the location from Peter and then tell it to Snape, without his having to know that Peter was a spy (and Sirius was innocent). If Snape were the one to tell Dumbledore the location of Godric's Hollow, that might explain why it took a day (although I still think the lost day is an unfortunate oversight). If the lost day is an oversight, then the Fidelius Charm was probably broken once the elder Potters died, thus allowing Dumbledore to find the Potters (he knew they lived there after all - I guess once the Fidelius Charm iwas cast, everyone who knew the Potters forgot where they lived). This would also explain the muggles seeing the burning house. Another possibility is that Jo, who is not infallible, made an error somewhere in either book 1 or later about the Fidelius Charm, which, after all, is hard to keep consistent.

jussjames

March 22nd, 2006, 12:29 am

Spinners End 16

I think this was a good, if not misguided editorial. Forgive me, but hypothesises made pertaining to this article deserve much more thought.

Are we forgetting a VERY important message given in HBP? If a spell is cast by a person, when that same person dies, so does the spell? Look at Dumbledore and his freezing curse on Harry. But I digress.

'Suppose the Fidelius Charm was cast by James or Lily. Upon their death, would the charm not die? Think again (as painful as it was) about Dumbledores spell on Harry on the tower? It died afterward. So logically in terms with the Fidelius Charm, the spell would die after the caster, not the secret keeper. Which furthermore explains why Dumbledore wouldn't have cast the charm unless he himself had gone into hiding.

And beyond that, though off the topic of Godrics Hollow, the Fidelius hides a person or place. Who is to say that Voldemort or ANY of his cronies wouldn't know 12 Grimmard place before it was placed under Dumbledores Fidelius charm? That would be asinine. Sirius's mother probably had a Malfoy or two (or other Death Eaters) over before she died and the house became Sirius's (and later Harry's).

From that I think these two points add up quite logically. Dumbledore obviously didn't cast the Fidelius charm at Godrics Hollow (beyond the fact that he didn't know the secret keeper). Lily was good with Charms. It was probably her. And beyond that, the charm DIED when Lily or James did.

Because of the above logic, it is fair to assume Hagrid, as well as Dumbledore knew where Godrics Hollow was BEFORE the charm was cast. But were they able to ascertain its location because of the Fidelius Charm? it seems not. Not until either James or Lily died.

Now about this point that follows: "If Wormtail was there, he saw the horrific destruction that Hagrid describes, Lily and James dead, Baby Harry left in the rubble, the Dark Lord seemingly destroyed, and he almost certainly collected Voldemort's wand before leaving the scene to frame and destroy Sirius."

I don't think it was as such as stated by Lady Lupin. I think perhaps that after Voldemort was destroyed, Pettigrew fled from the home with Voldemort's wand. Then he tried to destroy the home AROUND Harry, as his was scared (and obviously a coward) of Harry, and that if voldemort couldn't destroy Harry, how could he. He's be scared of that fact as how Voldemort was defeated by a baby, couldn't he?

But beyond that point, Pettigrew more than likely wanted vengence. He would hate Harry because he had given up everything for turning to Voldemort. Sirius would know about the scam. And quickly so would Dumbledore, as well as the rest of the world. That is an important aspect of Pettigrews personality. Pettigrew fled with Voldemorts wand, hoping that Harry had been done in by the rubble of the newly destroyed house, just to get out of the trouble he'd maade for himself. And as a final point, he made Sirius look like a murderer.

So I move that not only did the Fidelius Charm fail/fade after James/Lily's death. But also Pettigrew was responsible for the house at Godric's Hollow being destroyed when Hagrid found young Harry, atop of his other grievenances.

Just a series of thoughts. Feel free to contact me via jussjames@hotmail.com on your thoughts, or respond here.

James K.

catbone

March 22nd, 2006, 1:06 am

jussjames ...well done! I could not agree with you more ...

Sakura_Black

March 22nd, 2006, 2:40 am

WOW! You have brought up so many frightening points. I never really realized how awful Wormtail is until I read this.

SusanBones

March 22nd, 2006, 3:20 pm

jussjames, you brought up a very good point. Most people have been focusing on the secret or the secret keeper, but you reminded us that there is another important player: the person who casts the spell. Your explanation, that since the castor (James or Lily) died, the secret died, makes perfect sense. The only trouble I have is when we compare it to Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore was the secret keeper. Who cast the spell? If it was Sirius, then wouldn't the spell be cancelled? Or would the fact that Harry was the heir, keep the spell active?

But a lot of people have pointed out that JK has a simple explanation for the whole thing, and I agree. Either the spell had been cancelled (many people's speculation, with several different methods) or that Harry was found outside the hiding place, in the rubble, and therefore "findable" (my theory) are a few of the very simple explanations that answer most of Lady Lupin's questions in her wonderful editorial.

jussjames

March 22nd, 2006, 5:40 pm

I thought about that as well. I would think it might be a fair hypothesis that Dumbledore cast the spell and made himself secret keeper. Otherwise no one else will ever be able to get into Grimmard Place. Unless the person who casts it can assign a new secret keeper upon the death of the current one?

Who else might have cast the spell besides Dumbledore? Aberforth perhaps?

Just another thought. ^.^

sandirs

March 22nd, 2006, 6:18 pm

As always, Lady L, a thoughful and original work.

I wonder if Godric's Hollow and the murders became manifest by one thing: when a death eater --and presumably Voldemort-- commits a murder, they raise the deathhead's sign in the sky over the house of the victim.

This sign probably lead other wizards to ruch to the site and to notify the Ministry and probably, Dumbledore only AFTER the fact.

Yes? No? Maybe?:rolleyes:

khomagic

March 22nd, 2006, 6:39 pm

Actually, Sirius tells Lupin in the sheiking shack that he got the news paper from fudge will he was at Azkaban to do an inspection.
Thanks for clearing this up for me I knew some one said it.

Spinners End 16

I think this was a good, if not misguided editorial. Forgive me, but hypothesises made pertaining to this article deserve much more thought.

Are we forgetting a VERY important message given in HBP? If a spell is cast by a person, when that same person dies, so does the spell? Look at Dumbledore and his freezing curse on Harry. But I digress.

'Suppose the Fidelius Charm was cast by James or Lily. Upon their death, would the charm not die? Think again (as painful as it was) about Dumbledores spell on Harry on the tower? It died afterward. So logically in terms with the Fidelius Charm, the spell would die after the caster, not the secret keeper. Which furthermore explains why Dumbledore wouldn't have cast the charm unless he himself had gone into hiding.

And beyond that, though off the topic of Godrics Hollow, the Fidelius hides a person or place. Who is to say that Voldemort or ANY of his cronies wouldn't know 12 Grimmard place before it was placed under Dumbledores Fidelius charm? That would be asinine. Sirius's mother probably had a Malfoy or two (or other Death Eaters) over before she died and the house became Sirius's (and later Harry's).

From that I think these two points add up quite logically. Dumbledore obviously didn't cast the Fidelius charm at Godrics Hollow (beyond the fact that he didn't know the secret keeper). Lily was good with Charms. It was probably her. And beyond that, the charm DIED when Lily or James did.

Because of the above logic, it is fair to assume Hagrid, as well as Dumbledore knew where Godrics Hollow was BEFORE the charm was cast. But were they able to ascertain its location because of the Fidelius Charm? it seems not. Not until either James or Lily died.

Now about this point that follows: "If Wormtail was there, he saw the horrific destruction that Hagrid describes, Lily and James dead, Baby Harry left in the rubble, the Dark Lord seemingly destroyed, and he almost certainly collected Voldemort's wand before leaving the scene to frame and destroy Sirius."

I don't think it was as such as stated by Lady Lupin. I think perhaps that after Voldemort was destroyed, Pettigrew fled from the home with Voldemort's wand. Then he tried to destroy the home AROUND Harry, as his was scared (and obviously a coward) of Harry, and that if voldemort couldn't destroy Harry, how could he. He's be scared of that fact as how Voldemort was defeated by a baby, couldn't he?

But beyond that point, Pettigrew more than likely wanted vengence. He would hate Harry because he had given up everything for turning to Voldemort. Sirius would know about the scam. And quickly so would Dumbledore, as well as the rest of the world. That is an important aspect of Pettigrews personality. Pettigrew fled with Voldemorts wand, hoping that Harry had been done in by the rubble of the newly destroyed house, just to get out of the trouble he'd maade for himself. And as a final point, he made Sirius look like a murderer.

So I move that not only did the Fidelius Charm fail/fade after James/Lily's death. But also Pettigrew was responsible for the house at Godric's Hollow being destroyed when Hagrid found young Harry, atop of his other grievenances.

Just a series of thoughts. Feel free to contact me via jussjames@hotmail.com on your thoughts, or respond here.

James K.

You know that not all spells cease when the spell caster dies. How would #12 still be unplottable when we are told Sirius' Father or Grand-Father cast that spell originally to keep muggles away from the house. Or The PERM sticking Charm on Mrs. Black portrait. I agree that some spells must cease upon the casters death but the spells like patrificus totallus wear off too remember Nevill had that spell cast on him by Hermione and it was used on more than one Death Eater in the department of mystries in OoTP and it wore off then too. Maybe it's just a coincidence that the spell stoped working on Harry when DD went over the side. I don't believe that myself but maybe that's the case.

AurorChick

March 22nd, 2006, 7:48 pm

SusanBones

March 22nd, 2006, 8:02 pm

Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but here's a quote from jkrowling.com (FAQ Poll)

"When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else."
But we are not taking about the secret keeper or the secret, therefore, JK's comment doesn't apply. We are talking about the person who casts the Fidelus Charm. James or Lily had to cast the Fidelus Charm on someone, called the secret keeper, in order to make their location secret. The secret keeper doesn't cast the spell.

simplybecky

March 23rd, 2006, 1:21 am

I understand what you guys are saying, but do we know for certain that the Secret Keeper is not the one who casts the spell? For example, Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper for the Order of the Phoenix, but doesn't it seem highly likely that he also cast the spell? Or is there somewhere that JKR says otherwise? Sorry, I really can't remember; it's been awhile.

Wimsey

March 23rd, 2006, 4:20 am

Either the spell had been cancelled (many people's speculation, with several different methods) or that Harry was found outside the hiding place, in the rubble, and therefore "findable" (my theory) are a few of the very simple explanations that answer most of Lady Lupin's questions in her wonderful editorial.

The simplest still is that Hagrid had been told the location by a means that did not identify the secret keeper. We know that Hagrid found Harry in the ruins of the house: he said so. We know that wizards can communicate the secrets through very simple means that would not immediately identify the secret keeper.

So, any idea that relies on these known things is (by definition) simpler than ideas that require unknowns to be true.

Are we forgetting a VERY important message given in HBP? If a spell is cast by a person, when that same person dies, so does the spell? Look at Dumbledore and his freezing curse on Harry. But I digress
You know that not all spells cease when the spell caster dies. How would #12 still be unplottable when we are told Sirius' Father or Grand-Father cast that spell originally to keep muggles away from the house.

There are many other examples, such as the Sorting Hat, Invisibility Cloaks, Slytherin's Locket and Hufflepuff's Cup, where magic obviously continues long after the spell caster died.

Now, what the rule are for "mortal" vs. "venal" spells, I do not know. We have seen that some magical spells run out: the Irish supporting Shamrock and the inflated picture of Harry are two examples of enchanted items who's effects dissipated. In the latter case, the spell casters were just fine.

Also, there is the possibility that spells can be lifted. Suppose that Sirius cast the Fidelius charm on Pettigrew: Sirius might have lifted the spell after everything had gone to hell in a handbasket.

(I am not too keen on this idea, as it requires two fan-fictions - Sirius casting the spell and then Sirius lifting the spell - to be true, and thus is less parsimonious than the secret simply being "The Potters are hiding at Godric's Hollow," which does not preclude anyone from saying "The Potters were killed by You-Know-Who at Godric's Hollow.")

I understand what you guys are saying, but do we know for certain that the Secret Keeper is not the one who casts the spell? For example, Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper for the Order of the Phoenix, but doesn't it seem highly likely that he also cast the spell?

We have no reason to think that the Spell Caster must be the Secret Keeper or that he/she is precluded from it. Until we learn otherwise, we probably should assume that one can hide the secret in oneself or in another person.

Of course, the one advantage to JKR for precluding the spell caster from being the secret keeper is that this would mean that Voldemort could not use the spell to hide his Horcruxes!

Kaspar_Mercator

March 23rd, 2006, 4:28 pm

I think the explanation is very simple. The secret Wormtail kept might have been somthing like this:

Lily, James and Harry Potters are hiding in Godrics Hollow,

(and probably the exact adress, for it is a town).

But this secret changed the moment Lily and James died. Or maybe even before that. They were in hiding from Voldemort and his Death Eaters, when Voldemort found them, how can you still call that hiding?

Thats probably why JKR did not just say the secret dies with them when answering the last FAQ-poll, butt added The status of the secret will remain the way it was at the moment of their death There was no secret to be kept by Wormtail.

And Wormtail could´t possibly made the location of Godric´s hollow disappear from everybody´s minds, it was just the house in this town

Quidagis

March 24th, 2006, 9:43 am

We have no reason to think that the Spell Caster must be the Secret Keeper or that he/she is precluded from it. Until we learn otherwise, we probably should assume that one can hide the secret in oneself or in another person.

Of course, the one advantage to JKR for precluding the spell caster from being the secret keeper is that this would mean that Voldemort could not use the spell to hide his Horcruxes!
Maybe this isn't hard proof, but I think the name of the spell "Fidelius Charm" implies that there must be an element of trust involved, as in trusting someone completely. That's why I'm sure you can't be your own Secret Keeper. There's of course the fact that Dumbledore was Secret Keeper for the Order's Headquarters, which seems to contradict that assumption, but maybe they found a way around that problem. #12 belonged to Sirius, it was his decision to allow the Order to use it as Headquarters, so maybe it was his secret all along. That would explain why the Order moved out of #12 after Sirius' death. They couldn't be sure that Sirius' decision counted anymore. The moment it became clear that Harry was allowed to own the house he renewed his permission to use it as Headquarters, and the Fidelius Charm continued to work. In case Bellatrix Lestrange had inherited the house, the secret statement that was protected with the Charm wouldn't have been true anymore, because she simply wouldn't have let the Order use her house as Headquarters.

Voldemort doesn't trust anyone but himself, so he wouldn't be able to use the Fidelius Charm to hide his Horcruxes. And it's the sort of magic he despises and underestimates anyway. I'd be very surprised if we found out in book 7 that one of the Horcruxes was hidden with the Fidelius Charm.
I think perhaps that after Voldemort was destroyed, Pettigrew fled from the home with Voldemort's wand. Then he tried to destroy the home AROUND Harry, as his was scared (and obviously a coward) of Harry, and that if voldemort couldn't destroy Harry, how could he. He's be scared of that fact as how Voldemort was defeated by a baby, couldn't he?

But beyond that point, Pettigrew more than likely wanted vengence. He would hate Harry because he had given up everything for turning to Voldemort. Sirius would know about the scam. And quickly so would Dumbledore, as well as the rest of the world. That is an important aspect of Pettigrews personality. Pettigrew fled with Voldemorts wand, hoping that Harry had been done in by the rubble of the newly destroyed house, just to get out of the trouble he'd maade for himself. And as a final point, he made Sirius look like a murderer.
It's a good idea to look at what Wormtail did after Voldemort disappeared. I agree that he could have been responsible for the destruction of the house, in an attempt to cover his tracks. The only problem I got with this theory is the Priori Incantatem in GoF: If I were Wormtail trying desperately to frame Sirius for my own betrayal, I'd have used Voldemort's wand to destroy the house and then I'd have made sure that Sirius was found with Voldemort's guilty wand in his possession. And I'd have used Voldemort's wand to blow up the street. But neither of those spells came out of the wand in GoF. But neither did the backfiring Avada Kedavra, so this may not mean much.

I got trouble understanding why Wormtail did retrieve Voldemort's wand in the first place, actually. What was in it for him?

SusanBones

March 24th, 2006, 3:07 pm

Wimsey

March 24th, 2006, 9:43 pm

Maybe this isn't hard proof, but I think the name of the spell "Fidelius Charm" implies that there must be an element of trust involved, as in trusting someone completely.

Faith can be to one's self, too.

Voldemort doesn't trust anyone but himself, so he wouldn't be able to use the Fidelius Charm to hide his Horcruxes. And it's the sort of magic he despises and underestimates anyway. I'd be very surprised if we found out in book 7 that one of the Horcruxes was hidden with the Fidelius Charm.

Well, we almost know that Voldemort did not use these, or we misunderstand the spell. If Flitwick's summary is correct, then neither the Gaunt shack nor the Torture Cave Horcruxes were protected by the Fidelius Charm.

Now, and to repeat what I wrote above, it would be easiest on JKR if Voldemort cannot hide his secret within himself: otherwise (and assuming that a literal reading of Flitwick is correct), he should have used that for the 4 hidden Horcruxes, and Dumbledore could not have located them.

The only evidence that we have that one cannot cast the Fidelius Charm on one's self it is true is that Voldemort did not use it to protect two Horcruxes; now, I do think that this actually is decent evidence, as the probability of there being no Fidelius protection is 1.0 under that hypothesis whereas it is substantially less than that given the alternative. Ergo, it has greater information content.

I got trouble understanding why Wormtail did retrieve Voldemort's wand in the first place, actually. What was in it for him?

The Priori Incantatem spell probably might have revealed who the traitor was, especially given Voldemort's habit of torturing his followers.

We have canon to prove that the secret keeper is not the person who casts the Fidelus Charm.

This is not canon proof that the secret keeper cannot be the caster. If your interpretations are correct, then this only proves that the secret keep does not have to be the Fidelius Charm caster. This proves the existential statement that "some if not all secret keepers are not the Fidelius Charm casters." It does not prove the universal statement that "the secret keepers are never the Fidelius Charm casters." A chap named Humé demonstrated long ago that universal statements can only be falsified (and even then given strict assumptions) but never verified, at least by observation. One million white swans does not ensure that the next swan will not be some other color, after all.

hgfan

March 24th, 2006, 9:51 pm

plainlypotter

March 24th, 2006, 9:58 pm

We have canon to prove that the secret keeper is not the person who casts the Fidelus Charm. In book 3, Dumbledore said that he tried to talk James into using him as the secret keeper. And later in the same book, Sirius said that he was the one who talked James into making Wormtail his secret keeper. It was up to James to decide who the secret keeper would be. And the only way to make it a binding magical contract would be for James to cast a spell. Otherwise, people could go around making up secrets and hiding people without their knowledge.

I am confused, Jo's explanation I thought , meant that the secret remains in effect as long as the secret keeper is alive and only those persons who knew the secret while the secret keeper lived will know the secret. But using that scenario when James or Lily cast the charm hiding their location with wormtail wouldn't they have also included Harry? That being the case , it would appear that the secret would have to be limited either to no one but those the secret keeper allowed to "see" the secret, the persons or the location. If it pertains to particular people then although the potter could have left their home, no one but thos privy to the secret could see them This possiblity seems a bit strange since others could see harry, afterall the dursleys see harry as do all the other students at hogwarts. If it pertains only to the place, godrics hollow, and wormtail being alive - then perhaps when harry returns no one but those wormtail told the location will be able to see him while he is there..

Personally I guess I would like to know how else the charm can be broken, It does not make sense that the charm can not be removed by the caster. or upon the demise of the necessity, or at a specified time. If necessity is a valid reason for the charm to be broken then as soon as hagrid picked up harry ( assuming harry was part of the charm which would seem likely) then everyone would be able to see godrics hollow because the potters were dead and harry was gone, but when harry returns does the necessity reactivate?

I seem to be going around in circles .....Help

Lili

March 24th, 2006, 10:10 pm

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read through what I'm sure are fantastic replies to this superb editorial. However, I would like to stick in my two cents.

I don't think that Wormtail would have wanted a note getting to Dumbledore. That would have been counter-productive to what Dumbledore was trying to do in having the fidelius charm placed on the potters in the first place. The point was to have a single person knowing the secret. Dumbeldore would be understandably upset if the secret-keeper went about handing out notes to people telling them where to potters were.

So, that would explain why it may have taken Dumbledore some time to figure out where Godric' hollow was. But it doesn't explain why he and Hagrid didn't suspect Sirius. Perhaps the shock that their carefully concieved plan had backfired was enough to momentarily knock them out of their senses. I don't know. I also wonder, though, just how important the Potters were to the Order. I know that they were members, and that they were well liked and respected, but we're not really told exactly what either of them did for the Order are we?

My final question that comes to mind is why Sirius didn't try to prove his own innocence. The impression I get is that he didn't even try to fight the verdict. That seems very un-Sirius-ish to me. He's usually been the first to jump into a battle for what he believes is right - well when he was allowed to. But he didn't even try to prove his innocence. Perhaps at the time there was no such thing as a trial, just a conviction, I'm uncertain.

plainlypotter

March 24th, 2006, 10:28 pm

in reply to inkling 7:

Is Pettegrew a Griffindor? I don't think JKR says so, just that he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin. He could have been in a different house.

Am I the only fan out there who thinks that Dumbledore is not all that nice at times? When one thinks about the big night in Godric's Hollow and subsequent events, isn't it odd that Harry is just left on the Dursley's doorstep? He is not a baby, he is 15 months old. Quite old enough to get out of the basket in the night and toddle off somewhere (under a bus?) Also, it is cold in November in England. Who would leave a baby out all night?

Most importantly, no one checks on how Harry is for 11 years? A bit odd considering he is 'the Chosen One' and Dumbledore expects Voldy to come back. Or does Dumbledore know how awful life is with the Dursleys and chooses to do nothing? The Dursleys are starving Harry and making him sleep in a closet. Where is Wizard Child Welfare? Or is Dumbledore aware of Harry's situation and does nothing because it is 'character building'?
:

I don't think it is every specifically mentioned, but I think it would have beem hard for the marauders to get under the invisibility cloak if they were starting out from different houses ( on the days they went to transform to be with mooney). Of course Peter was a rat when he transformed so he might have been able to leave unnoticed, but then that presents the problem of an empty bed in the dorm room.

I too found it strange that harry is left alone on the dorrsetp , but I have long held the idea that Privet Dr and a small area around the house must be magically protected - like the weasleys house in HBP - you had to be a distance away from the house before you could disapparate, the same appears true for privet dr.

I don't think this is entirely true that no one checks on harry for 11 years, afterall the Dumbledore knows where harry is actually living within the house - remember the letters to harry are addressed to the cupboard under the stairs and then to the smallest bedroom and then Dumbledore is able to find harry even on the rock in the middle of the lake. I think Dumbledore felt that even though Harry wasn't treated as well as he had hoped, he was still safer at the dursley's than anywhere else. In addition, I think DD's warning at the beginning of HBP has put the dursleys on notice that they will be paid back for their treatment of harry - perhaps Dumbledore would have protected the dursleys from V with some longer lasting charm than the one put on the house when he left harry there , but since they didn't treat harry as they treated their son he basically did nothing to exend the protection.

Lili

sirius didn't have a trial , he was carted off right after the street blew up. Since there was nothing left of Pettigreww it appear obvious that Sirius was the culprit. to the ministry. Remeber barty jr was one of the few to get a trial and then only to clear barty sr's name.

Wimsey

March 25th, 2006, 12:56 am

Personally I guess I would like to know how else the charm can be broken,

Technically, we do not know that the spell can be lifted. We should not be surprised to learn that it can be - many otherlingering spells can be banished - but we do not know this for certain.

My final question that comes to mind is why Sirius didn't try to prove his own innocence. The impression I get is that he didn't even try to fight the verdict.

There was no verdict. Sirius was jailed for life without trial. The fact that Crouch Sr. provided no recourse for people like Sirius was an important aspect of his character development in GoF.

I don't think that Wormtail would have wanted a note getting to Dumbledore. That would have been counter-productive to what Dumbledore was trying to do in having the fidelius charm placed on the potters in the first place. The point was to have a single person knowing the secret. Dumbeldore would be understandably upset if the secret-keeper went about handing out notes to people telling them where to potters were.

On the contrary, Wormtail would have wanted Dumbledore to get the note. Because Dumbledore would have thought that it came from Sirius, it would have enhanced the disguise.

Also, the point was not to have a single person know the secret, but to make it impossible for Voldemort to find the Potters. Just as long as that single person did not tell Voldemort, nobody else could have done so. The secret keeper could have told Lucius Malfoy, but he would not have been able to communicate that information to Voldemort.

Given that Dumbledore had stationed Hagrid nearby, it seems improbable that Dumbledore and Hagrid did not know. They could not tell anyone else, after all, and presumably the Potters trusted both to not attack them on Voldemort's behalf.

Is Pettegrew a Griffindor? I don't think JKR says so, just that he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin. He could have been in a different house.

JKR attempted to tell us that he was, but screwed up and typed "Lupin" twice. The conspiracy theorists claim that JKR was trying to dupe us, but given her claims that she never deliberately misleads, she would have simply omitted Pettigrew's name.

In addition, and as others have summarized, the structure of Hogwarts' houses make it impossible for Pettigrew to have carried on with the other Marauders had he been in another house.

Am I the only fan out there who thinks that Dumbledore is not all that nice at times? When one thinks about the big night in Godric's Hollow and subsequent events, isn't it odd that Harry is just left on the Dursley's doorstep? .... Who would leave a baby out all night?

By doing this, Dumbledore diminished Petunia's opportunity to refuse to take Harry. Because Petunia (and Dudley) are Harry's only close relatives (unless you believe the Hermilea conspiracy theory), Harry had to stay there to be protected.

Quidagis

March 26th, 2006, 1:48 pm

Faith can be to one's self, too
Yeah, but that's a bit of a metaphorical meaning. I don't think the word fides was ever used in that sense in Latin. The original meaning is closer to trust than to faith at any rate.

Would it make sense to name a spell after faith/trust if trust in yourself would be sufficient? Depends on the school of thought, but one might argue that that can be taken for granted.

On the contrary, Wormtail would have wanted Dumbledore to get the note. Because Dumbledore would have thought that it came from Sirius, it would have enhanced the disguise.
Maybe not. Dumbledore could have been able to recognize the hand-writing, while Hagrid might have been safe because he wouldn't have noticed. Imo it's possible that Wormtail was supposed to let Dumbledore in on the secret but never did so, on Voldemort's orders.

mo1

March 26th, 2006, 3:58 pm

Well, I didn’t have the time to read all the posts, so sorry if some of this had already been said.

First, I must say that it is again a great editorial from Lady Lupin.
There are only a few points on which I disagree. I don’t believe that Petunia would be part of the Secret and I really don’t buy the possibily that Sirius delivered some papers written by Wormtail. It’s just not logical. Dumbledore for instance would have wondered why the Secret Keeper would not tell him the secret directly while facing him.
It’s only logical if it’s delivered through somebody else, for example if Sirius leaves the paper at the Hog’s Head under Alberforth guard and Dumbledore fetch it there, or if he uses a non-human messenger, like an owl. But what would be the point to use the immensely complex Fidelius Charm only to use such an unsafe way to share the secret afterwards ?
The only safe messengers we know are Patronuses. I have wondered if they could be used to share a secret. If a written note is considered as a direct way to tell something, then I don’t see why Patronuses messengers would not work in the same way. But then, it would have to be Wormtail’s Patronus that should have been sent, and it’s very unlikely that the members of the original Order didn’t know what were the shapes of their fellow members’ Patronuses.
Then, could it be Wormtail who delived the papers ? One would have thought that he would have gone hidding immediately after the Charm was set. And why use such a weak wizard for such an important mission ? But in the same time noone seemed surprised that Peter Pettigrew knew about the Secret Keeper’s identity, so that’s not impossible.

About Dumbledore’s behaviour at Privet Drive. Dumbledore is not the kind of man who panics easily. Remeber the night M. Weasley was bitten by the snake : he takes a long time asking questions quietly and evaluating the situation before he sends some help to Arthur. In the same way, that night on Privet Drive he does react because right after Hagrid explains that « young Sirius Black lent » him his bike, he asks « No problem, were there ? », but he doesn’t panick because there’s no need for it : Hagrid and Harry are both there, in front of him, alive and safe, and at that time Sirius is already locked in a cell in Askaban (remember, Sirius cornered Wormtail and was arrested the day after he met Hagrid at Godric’s Hollow, i.e. most probably the day after James and Lily’s deaths).

Two last things. Dumbledore could not have spend the lost day to seek for information about the Potters location because he had already informed Hagrid about the fact he would meet him at midnight on Privet Drive before the moment Hagrid told it to McGonagall, which mean at some time during the night from the 31st October to the 1st of November.
In the same way, when put together, the fact it is Hagrid who informed McGonagall about the meeting on Privet Drive and the fact McG didn’t know that it was Hagrid who will get Harry exclude the possibility that Hagrid would have already been stationned in Godric’s Hollow before Voldemort’s attack.

Gmariam

March 26th, 2006, 5:07 pm

About Dumbledore’s behaviour at Privet Drive. Dumbledore is not the kind of man who panics easily. Remeber the night M. Weasley was bitten by the snake : he takes a long time asking questions quietly and evaluating the situation before he sends some help to Arthur. In the same way, that night on Privet Drive he does react because right after Hagrid explains that « young Sirius Black lent » him his bike, he asks « No problem, were there ? », but he doesn’t panick because there’s no need for it : Hagrid and Harry are both there, in front of him, alive and safe, and at that time Sirius is already locked in a cell in Askaban (remember, Sirius cornered Wormtail and was arrested the day after he met Hagrid at Godric’s Hollow, i.e. most probably the day after James and Lily’s deaths).

You know, this makes sense to me, but I'm not sure its technically correct. According to the HP Lexicon, Voldemort went to the Potters on the night of October 31st; Dumbledore left Harry at Privet Drive on the night of November 1st; and Sirius Black was arrested November 2nd.
If, however, this is wrong, and Sirius Black was arrested on November 1st, after he met Hagrid, but before Dumbledore arrives at Privet Drive, then Dumbledore's reaction makes more sense: "No problems, were there?" Dumbledore knew Sirius had been arrested and was making sure he didn't give Hagrid any trouble with Harry. Still, if Dumbledore believed Sirius to be the betrayer at this point, he still might show some suprise that Sirius let Hagrid take Harry, considering Black had just given them all up to Voldemort. And if the timeline at the Lexicon is correct, and Sirius was arrested on November 2nd, I still wonder why Dumbledore didn't have any other reaction at Privet Drive. He gave evidence that Black was the Secret-Keeper, so when Hagrid tells him that he met Black at Godric's Hollow, surely some sort of reaction was in order? Dumbledore may be patient and calm but he still reacts, as we have seen many times ourselves as readers.
Either we are missing something or there is a slight inconsistency JKR may need to shore up for us. Either way, I think Black being arrested on November 1st - the "lost day" - would help explain a lot!
~Gina

PS.
Well this is interesting!

"I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back."
was changed to:
"I best get this bike away."
because:
"This sentence didn't fit very well with the way the character of Sirius was developed as the series progressed."

I just found that on the Lexicon - I wonder why she changed it and if it means something to the conversations we are having?? Anyone know more??

anichan2012

March 27th, 2006, 3:14 am

After reading the editorial, and then going back and re reading the beginning of the first book, there is a thing I would like to add...

When Hagrid is telling Harry about this parent's murder, he states that Godrics Hollow was the place that his parents were living around the time, so could the Fidelus Charm take away the knowledge of where they were from people who already knew? I doubt it.

I think it only works from spreading further information. Except in the one person to whom the imformation is trusted. I seem to remember that Dumbledore said their best chance was in the charm, when there was discussion over whether they should flee or hide somewhere. So, perhaps they were already there?

Just a thought.

Wimsey

March 27th, 2006, 11:03 pm

Maybe not. Dumbledore could have been able to recognize the hand-writing, while Hagrid might have been safe because he wouldn't have noticed. Imo it's possible that Wormtail was supposed to let Dumbledore in on the secret but never did so, on Voldemort's orders.

But we KNOW from GoF that wizards know of ways (indeed, very mundane ones!) of written communication that does not involve handwriting! After all, letters cut out of the Daily Prophet are just that.

Quidagis - The more I think on it, the more that I think that you are correct: we have good evidence that one cannot use one's self as a secret keeper. If this were possible, then there is a very high probability that the Gaunt Shack and the Cave both would have been so protected. Neither were. However, if Voldemort cannot hide his own secret in himself, then the probability of neither being Fidelius protected is 1.0, and we observed exactly what we have seen.

Now, this is not confirmation of the hypothesis (only JKR can provide that), but it strong contradiction of the alternative hypothesis.

Quidagis

March 28th, 2006, 9:59 am

When Hagrid is telling Harry about this parent's murder, he states that Godrics Hollow was the place that his parents were living around the time, so could the Fidelus Charm take away the knowledge of where they were from people who already knew? I doubt it.
I looked it up, but I can't find the passage you're referring to. In PS, The Keeper of the Keys, p.45 (British edition) Hagrid says:
.. he turned up in the village where you was all living ... He came ter yer house an'...
Godric's Hollow is not mentioned there. Maybe he still couldn't speak the name of the place in front of the Dursleys, at least not in connection with the Potters hiding there from Voldemort (the word hiding isn't used either). Is it perhaps different in another edition?

McGonagall on the other hand says to Dumbledore PS, The Boy Who Lived, p. 14:
...last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters....

Hm, I changed my mind. Maybe McGonagall and Dumbledore really were in on the secret. McGonagall would be even more likely to recognize Sirius' and Peter's handwriting, though.

Wimsey, I'm not convinced they could have gotten away with cut-out newspaper letters. Wouldn't that raise a lot of questions?

What about Polyjuice Potion? That would also explain why Dumbledore testified that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. He'd have no reason to assume it wasn't him.

mo1

March 28th, 2006, 2:27 pm

Godric's Hollow is not mentioned there. Maybe he still couldn't speak the name of the place in front of the Dursleys, at least not in connection with the Potters hiding there from Voldemort (the word hiding isn't used either). Is it perhaps different in another edition?

McGonagall on the other hand says to Dumbledore PS, The Boy Who Lived, p. 14:

...last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters....

Hm, I changed my mind. Maybe McGonagall and Dumbledore really were in on the secret. McGonagall would be even more likely to recognize Sirius' and Peter's handwriting, though.

What about Polyjuice Potion? That would also explain why Dumbledore testified that Sirius was the Secret Keeper. He'd have no reason to assume it wasn't him.

Harry and Ron also talk about Godric's Hollow at the end of HBP, and Ron, at least, has never been in the secret.
But JKR give us an aswer about that : Godric's Hollow is a village, not a house and the Potter's secret protected their precise location. So anyone could know that they live in Godric's Hollow, but only those who are part of the secret know and only Wormtail can tell that they were hiding in number ... street ... in Godric's Hollow.
(On a side note, I keep on wondering how Harry could have tell "#12 Grimmauld Place" to the fire when using the floo network).

Great point about the teacher who should have known her students writting.:tu:

The polyjuice potion is a good idea, but could we really believe that James, Sirius and Peter would have taken such a risk. It would be more likely that Sirius and Peter would have gone hiding right after Peter became the secret keeper.

ravenblackfoot

March 28th, 2006, 10:03 pm

I would just like to say, and maybe my idea of the Fidelius Charm is different to others but i always thought the charm was there to allow only one person to pass on a secret to new people, and prevent others who already knew of telling anyone. So saying this, this could mean that dumbledore, sirius, lupin, hagrid and all other friends of James and Lily will know where James and Lily are and how to get to Godrics Hollow, but would not be able to divulge the information to anyone even under torture.

I dont know if you understand what i mean but an example of this is in Book 6 :

Dumbledore was Grimmauld Place Secret Keeper, but he was afraid when the house was passed down, after sirius' death, that Bellatrix would have moved into the Grimmauld Place and found out that it was the Orders HQ, but if it had been handed down to bellatrix and we work with your theory (not my theory = that people who already know about the secret dont lose the knowledge once the charm is created) then she wouldnt have found the house, which since dumbledore was afraid would happen means that because she already knew of the house then she can get to it and know the location but she can not tell anyone else of its location.

Basically my idea is that the charm works to stop anyone else knowing about the secret because even the people who know cant tell people but if you already know before the charm was created you know the secret just cant tell anyone you know.

SusanBones

March 29th, 2006, 1:31 am

Basically my idea is that the charm works to stop anyone else knowing about the secret because even the people who know cant tell people but if you already know before the charm was created you know the secret just cant tell anyone you know.
Your idea isn't too bad because it would explain how Dumbledore and Hagrid would know where the Potters were hiding and yet still not know who the secret keeper was. But I have a feeling that things didn't happen that way.

page 204 -US hardcover-PoA-Dumbledore, who of course was working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding. Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't easy to hide from. Dumbledore told them that the best chance was the Fidelius Charm. Then it goes on to talk about how the charm works and that Dumbledore expected that someone close to the Potters was a traitor. So James and Lily would have gone somewhere to hide that no one knew about.

le_professeur

March 29th, 2006, 4:03 am

I didn't have time to read all the comments so sorry if someone already said this but I'm wondering when was the Fidelius Charm put on GH? Wouldn't Petunia know where her sister was living after her marriage? Even though she didn't talk about her, Petunia did know Lily had a baby boy and his name was Harry. She told Vernon about that the evening the story begins when he asked her. Is it necessary for the Secret Keeper to "tell" the secret after the charm is put on even if the person knew the info to begin with?
I also wondered if the Professor Who Shall Not be Named was at GH that fateful night thinking that Lily would be "free" once Voldemort finished off James and Harry. And, he would be waiting in the wings to comfort her. His feelings for her seem quite strong even if he did call her a mudblood.

anichan2012

March 29th, 2006, 5:06 am

So far we ahve confirmed on our own that:
The Fidelus Charm doesn't take away the information already within a person, but does prevent them from repeating the information.

Does this mean... Okay, I'm gonna grasp a thought here, would it be possible to perhaps willingly lead someone to the secret place? Granted if they weren't saying anything, and simply walking with the Bad Guy walking right behind them, would that consitute as telling them by words spoken or written or otherwise? Just another thought...

I also had another though about the betrayal of Wormtail to the Potters, in PoA, Sirius said that Peter had been passing information to Voldemort for up to a year before the Potters died. But, if the calculations were right, this was still after the prophecy was made. Even if the rat didn't know of the prophecy, Why start to go after something that it seemed the Dark Lord was afraid of? Obviously there would have been some kind of behavioral change in the Potters after they learned there was a prophecy potentially about Harry. I honestly doubt that Dumbledore would have had them go into hiding with out telling them why. Why, would anyone pick the side that is fearful?

I understand that some of this could be emminating from my deep down dislike of Wormtail, but a tiny flicker of hope he might come around, consider it... This also brings me to a rant on Bellatix and why I think she's either good, or out for herself. If the Longbottoms knew that their son was a potential Voldemort slayer, they would ahve had to know there was some prophecy and if Bella didn't want anyone to learn this information.... You figure out the rest.

Lili

March 29th, 2006, 7:03 am

Does this mean... Okay, I'm gonna grasp a thought here, would it be possible to perhaps willingly lead someone to the secret place? Granted if they weren't saying anything, and simply walking with the Bad Guy walking right behind them, would that consitute as telling them by words spoken or written or otherwise? Just another thought...

I don't think so, honestly. From my understanding of it, if you don't know the secret, you can't see it. Harry couldn't see Grimmould Place until he read the note from Dumbledore. So, I think that you'd have to be told directly where in GH the Potters were hiding in order to do anything to them.

~Lili

SusanBones

March 29th, 2006, 12:35 pm

anichan 2012, I understand what we are saying, that couldn't someone who knows the secret just bring someone to the house and say, "here is where they live". But Flitwick said that you could look right in the window and not see them if you didn't know the secret.

waggawaggawer

March 29th, 2006, 8:33 pm

I didn't have time to read all the comments so sorry if someone already said this but I'm wondering when was the Fidelius Charm put on GH?

Apparently it was put on Godric's Hollow on October 24th, only a week before Voldemort visited.

Is it necessary for the Secret Keeper to "tell" the secret after the charm is put on even if the person knew the info to begin with?

Good question. If people already knew that the Potters lived at Godric's Hollow they might remember that, fidelius charm or not. But there is a difference between knowing where someone lives and actually seeing and speaking to them there.

Wouldn't Petunia know where her sister was living after her marriage? Even though she didn't talk about her, Petunia did know Lily had a baby boy and his name was Harry. She told Vernon about that the evening the story begins when he asked her.

You'd think so, but I wonder if Petunia cared that much? There seems to have been ill-feeling from Petunia's end.

Lili

March 30th, 2006, 11:23 pm

Is it necessary for the Secret Keeper to "tell" the secret after the charm is put on even if the person knew the info to begin with?

I don't know about that, but I seriously doubt that Dumbledore would have sent the Potters to a place that someone already knew about if the Charm worked like that. No, the location in Godric's Hollow was a secret that only the Potters and Wormtail knew about until Wormtail chose to reveal it to (an)other(s).

~Lili

igaworker

March 31st, 2006, 4:50 pm

I don't think the charm is still active. The reason I think this has to do with the books talking about the muggles milling around the house.

A place has the Fid-charm placed on it. However that place is now blown up. The book talks about rubble and such. So the place, let's say 13 Happy Hollow Rd, that had the charm on it is no longer "13 Happy Hollow Rd." It is now "that empty lot", or "that pile of rubble." That is why the charm is gone, because the building the charm was placed on is gone and you can't have a charm protecting a place that doesn't exsist.

Joep41

March 31st, 2006, 6:49 pm

Harry will be able to find the House, because it was the Potters that were hidden, not the their house as opposed to 12 Grimmauld Place where the House was being Hidden.

POA
" You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their
sitting room window!"

To have his nose pressed against their sitting room window he could obviously find the House

OTP
“The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place,
London. “Harry thought, and no sooner had he reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld Place,
than a battered door emerged out of nowhere between numbers eleven and thirteen, followed
swiftly by dirty walls and grimy windows. It was as though an extra house had inflated,
pushing those on either side out of its way.”

Wizard_Wheezes

April 3rd, 2006, 12:33 am

Do you think that the muggles could now see the house because of the explosion? In one of the books it mentions something about how muggles don't notice anything & that's why the wizards can walk around without being noticed much. . . .I think that the explosion would've gotten their attention.

Also, I don't think Harry has to be told the location since he had to be part of the original charm. I would like to know why the charm wouldn't have protected Harry even when his parents died though. Wouldn't the charm have protected him where no one that didn't know the secret wouldn't know where he was? Why can the kids at school see him? They obviously wouldn't have been told by the secret keeper.

I think that Harry will have to use a time tuner to go back to the murder of his parents - Jo has said that she can't comment on who else was in the house at the time of the murder - What if Harry was there in a grown up version & he's the one he hears (remember the dementors?) trying to protect Lilly?

Just a thought . . . :cool:

Also - I wonder if people that are good at legilimency (sp?)/occlumency would be able to find out about a secret when the charm is used without being specifically told?

Lili

April 3rd, 2006, 6:41 pm

Also - I wonder if people that are good at legilimency (sp?)/occlumency would be able to find out about a secret when the charm is used without being specifically told?

Doubtful. If even Veritiserum (sp?) can't get the Secret Keeper to spill, I doubt legilimency would either.

mo1

April 3rd, 2006, 7:01 pm

I think that Harry will have to use a time tuner to go back to the murder of his parents - Jo has said that she can't comment on who else was in the house at the time of the murder - What if Harry was there in a grown up version & he's the one he hears (remember the dementors?) trying to protect Lilly?

Harry wouldn't call his mother "Lily" and his baby self "Harry". It's James he heard.
But I have always wondered how baby Harry could not have been squashed when the house was blown up, and why Wormtail who was probably there didn't finished the baby off. Well, for the later, we could imagine that Wormtail was affraid because of what had happened to Voldemort, but for the former ... ? If an adult Harry (or someone else) was there, that might be the solution to the mystery.

Wizard_Wheezes

April 4th, 2006, 2:08 am

I hadn't thought about that - you're right - Harry probably wouldn't have told Lily to take Harry & go. I'm not totally convinced it was James that he heard though. What if it was one of the others (Ron, Neville) that might go back in time with him? I do think his folks are dead & are not coming back; I just think there is info there that he has to go back in time to get.

I think the reason the house blowing up didn't affect Harry is because the spell from his mother's death was already in place. She died to protect him so: Voldemort couldn't kill him, & the house didn't affect him. Didn't Dumbledore add additional protection later having to do with the Dursleys & being able to call their house "home?" I am curious why the house was in such bad shape though. I can't wait for book 7!

Veritiserum can be fooled though . . . that's why they didn't use it on Sirius; If a wizard knows it is going to be used, they can take steps to counteract it. Unless you are a good Occlumens (which Harry is not), I don't think you could fool a good Legilimens.

Gmariam

April 4th, 2006, 3:47 am

I don't find it that hard to believe the house was destroyed when the spell backfired - its magic! :) JKR has said that this scenario - Avada Kedavra backfiring - had never happened before; therefore it seems to me that anything is possible, especially with her imagination. Imagine throwing a stick of dynamite at some sort of inanimate object; but the object has an invisible shield that bounces it back. When it bounces back it explodes, completely missing its intended target but probably destroying everything around it as well. That's how I envision the Potter house being destroyed.

Now, baby Harry surviving the destruction of the house? That's another story altogether ;)

Would we be so shocked to discover that whomever was there with Voldemort that night saved him after the curse backfired? It would certainly throw a delicious twist into the story! Run with it - whee!

~Gina :)

WisdomGoddess

April 4th, 2006, 3:24 pm

This is a wonderful editorial and it brings up so many of the points that are driving me crazy as I obsessively re-read this series looking for the crucial details I missed. For example, the idea that Wormtail accompanied Voldemort to Godric's Hollow makes sense, since, as Lady Lupin pointed out, how else did he have the wand to give back to his master in the graveyard scene. The idea of Wormtail writing down the location of the Potters' hideout also makes sense and fits what we know about the means of accessing a place hidden by the Fidelius Charm. It also exonerates those like Dumbledore and Hagrid, whom I, like Lady Lupin, will not implicate as complicit in the murders of Harry's parents. I don't think, though, that Lupin would have been given one of those pieces of paper since Sirius and James and Lily believed him to be the spy (as we discover in PoA), that would be akin to handing their lives to Voldemort, which, unfortunately, they unknowingly did anyway. And like Lady Lupin, I also believe that Petunia has much to reveal to Harry, probably more than she has any idea she knows and I think that her information will, in its own way, be vital, both to Harry's quest and our understanding of that terrible night in Godric's Hollow.

Pixydust

April 4th, 2006, 5:37 pm

black_thestral

April 4th, 2006, 9:32 pm

Wonderful editorial as usual, Lady Lupin.

I love all the speculation!!

I just thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

I believe that the FC protected the Potter's themselves not the house. Because of the following:
1. In POA, the reference that if Voldemort was looking in their window he would not be able to see them.
2. In PS/SS Harry recieved the Invisibility Cloak with a note that said, "Your father left this in my posession before his death..." why would James give up something as valuable as the cloak. My guess is that he didn't need it at that point. (Sorry I don't have the books with me at the moment, so I can't quote exactly or the pages)

The other point I want to make is, that we don't know the exact wording of the secret. For example, was the secret that only Voldemort couldn't find them. That would negate the need for any written notes, or telling certain wizards or witches. Dumbledore would know, Sirius would know, even Snape could know, but only Wormtail could tell Voldemort, and have Voldemort find them.

Gmariam

April 5th, 2006, 12:06 am

I agree. I have said this before that I think Snape was there. He saved Harry and let Sirius rot? Oh this is not beyond possible.

After HBP I thought it may have been Snape too, until I watched GoF five times ;) Dumbledore tells the court that Snape turned spy *before* Lord Voldemort's downfall, and this is consistent with the books as far as I can tell. So why would double agent Snape let Voldemort kill the Potters if he was really working for the Order? That's horrible.
It only seems possible to me if it turns out Snape was never loyal to Dumbledore - in which case Dumbledore has been trusting a monster for 15 years, and this conversation moves to another thread.
I think its more likely that it was Pettigrew there that night - and it helps explain the Return of the Wand, at least a little.
But I can see a curve ball, that's for sure ;)
~Gina :)

Pixydust

April 6th, 2006, 5:23 pm

mo1

April 6th, 2006, 8:25 pm

After HBP I thought it may have been Snape too, until I watched GoF five times ;) Dumbledore tells the court that Snape turned spy *before* Lord Voldemort's downfall, and this is consistent with the books as far as I can tell. So why would double agent Snape let Voldemort kill the Potters if he was really working for the Order? That's horrible.

Snape didn't let Voldemort kill the Potters without doing anything since it's most probably him who warned Dumbledore about the fact they were going to be attacked. But as a spy (as we are shown at the beginning of HBP), he must stay in the back and keep on acting as a faithful Death Eater when he is with Voldemort and/or the DEs (the fact he is or is not a faithful DE is not the problem there). Giving informations is the only thing he can do for the Order, and he has done it.
But if Wormtail has arrived on Voldemort's headquaters on the night of 31th October 1981 and Snape was there (which I agree would be somehow strange for a Hogwarts teacher who should have been at Halloween's feast) and Voldemort told him "come with us, Severus, you will have the pleasure to see your old enemy die", he would have had no other choise than come and see everything and wait for the moment he would have the opportunity to tell Dumbledore everything he had seen. And maybe protect the baby after Voldemort's downfall.
Don't forget Snape was only 21 that night : he wouldn't have stand a chance if had fight with Voldemort, and the Order would have lost its best spy. Snape is too much of a cood mind and too much of a Slytherin to do such a thing.
His worst crime if he was in Godric's Hollow that night is not the fact he let Voldemort kill the Potters, it's the fact he let everyone believe that Sirius was the traitor when he knew it was Peter.

Pixydust

April 7th, 2006, 2:54 am

Gmariam

April 7th, 2006, 3:22 am

Snape didn't let Voldemort kill the Potters without doing anything since it's most probably him who warned Dumbledore about the fact they were going to be attacked. But as a spy (as we are shown at the beginning of HBP), he must stay in the back and keep on acting as a faithful Death Eater when he is with Voldemort and/or the DEs (the fact he is or is not a faithful DE is not the problem there).

Somewhere around here there is a theory that Snape and Dumbledore, knowing full well the implication of the prophecy, conspired to "create" the "one with the power the Dark Lord knows not." That might explain why Snape let the Potters die - but it also requires a huge leap of faith in believing that Harry would survive the attack. So I don't buy it, at least not unless someone - Dumbledore himself, preferrably - explains it properly. But its interesting, don't you think? ;)
Regardless, it still doesn't justify Snape letting the Potters die. Nothing does, not his cover, nothing. If it turns out Snape was there and did nothing, he receives no sympathy from me, and nothing could redeem him. Its really too horrible to think about. Poor Harry! He was devastated when he found out Snape was the spy who tipped off Voldemort to the prophecy - what would he feel, what would he do if he found out Snape was there, and just stood back while Voldemort killed his family?
If Snape was there, I would assume he knew that Peter Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and spy and I think he probably would have told Dumbledore at some point (regardless of his feelings for Sirius). But Dumbledore was surprised in PoA; he didn't know anything. And if Snape was there, why didn't he take Voldemort's wand? To simply say that Peter got it first is too easy. Snape is a powerful wizard, he could have taken the wand to Dumbledore to be destroyed; he should have. But if Peter did get it first, Snape would know he had it and I think again he would have told Dumbledore: Voldemort's wand floating around is no small matter. And if Snape knew all this stuff about Pettigrew and Black - spy and innocent - but didn't tel anyone, I think Dumbledore would have found out that Snape knew in PoA, and would have been very angry indeed. Now, perhaps that happened off the page; but it doesn't seem like it.
I'm talking myself in circles ;) A part of me still has that gut feeling from HBP that yes Snape was there in Godric's Hollow, and that's why Lily Potter didn't have to die; but it doesn't make sense to me when you start asking more questions and puzzling it out.
Now, what was that about Wormtail's Secret again? Some sort of charm? ;) I'm sorry we are so off topic, Lady Lupin! :)
~Gina

mo1

April 8th, 2006, 10:56 am

Regardless, it still doesn't justify Snape letting the Potters die. Nothing does, not his cover, nothing. If it turns out Snape was there and did nothing, he receives no sympathy from me, and nothing could redeem him. Its really too horrible to think about.
Snape is not a nice man, and I don't try to defend him. I believe that Snape only works for Snape, and that he is not (much) more faithful to Dumbledore than he is to Voldemort. But we are to wait and see what he had really done and what he will do in book 7 to know if he could be redeemed. I doubt it, but if he would sacrify to protect someone else (Draco or Harry for example), he might redeem himself a little.

Poor Harry! He was devastated when he found out Snape was the spy who tipped off Voldemort to the prophecy - what would he feel, what would he do if he found out Snape was there, and just stood back while Voldemort killed his family?
I agree that this knowledge would drive Harry mad, especially if he learns that Snape had saved him right after letting his parents die and letting Pettigrew flee. But it would also teach him much about Snape's true motivations and why Dumbledore did trust him.
The interesting question regarding "Wormtail's secret" topic is how much did Wormtail know about that and why didn't he mentionned anything about this in the Shrieking Shack? He could have try and buy his life with useful informations. But, of course, he would also have to admit that he looked his old friends die without doing anything.
If Snape was there, I would assume he knew that Peter Pettigrew was the Secret Keeper and spy and I think he probably would have told Dumbledore at some point (regardless of his feelings for Sirius). But Dumbledore was surprised in PoA; he didn't know anything.
And if Snape knew all this stuff about Pettigrew and Black - spy and innocent - but didn't tel anyone, I think Dumbledore would have found out that Snape knew in PoA, and would have been very angry indeed. Now, perhaps that happened off the page; but it doesn't seem like it.
I'm talking myself in circles ;) A part of me still has that gut feeling from HBP that yes Snape was there in Godric's Hollow, and that's why Lily Potter didn't have to die; but it doesn't make sense to me when you start asking more questions and puzzling it out.
That's the main problem : why did Dumbledore keep on trusting Snape post-PoA if Snape had known about Wormtail for 12 years and hidden it?
There is a solution : Snape could have pretended from the beginning that he had never known who the spy was because he wore his DE hood (yes I know, Peter's height would be a problem then) or he could have pretended that he have been lured in believing it was Sirius because he had seen a polyjuiced-in-Sirius Peter.
After all, there must be a reason why we are lead to think in GoF Wormtail was able to make Polyjuice Potion.
And if Snape was there, why didn't he take Voldemort's wand? To simply say that Peter got it first is too easy. Snape is a powerful wizard, he could have taken the wand to Dumbledore to be destroyed; he should have. But if Peter did get it first, Snape would know he had it and I think again he would have told Dumbledore: Voldemort's wand floating around is no small matter.
2 possibilities :
1. the wand might not have seem so important, and not everyone is obsessed with collecting trophies
2. if you think Snape was part of Dumbledore's plan, he might have guess that this wand which remained untarnished in the blown up house might have its role someday, as well as the fact that Wormtail had managed to get it first.

Sunesy

April 8th, 2006, 7:05 pm

Hey everyone! I don't know if anyone said this already, (I'm not gonna read 130 posts...) but if Lilly or James themselves did the charm, the charm would have lifted the moment they died, like the body bind curse lifted of harry when dumbledore was hit with the ( fake or real) avada kedavra... I suppose dumbledore being the great wizard he is/was, could then have performed some hocus pokus to find the potters bodies, or perhaps he didn't have, maybe he had people in Godrics Hollow, the village i mean, to watch after them, and when the house blew up he was warned or something...

nads

April 8th, 2006, 10:49 pm

I am started to get bored with most editorials: because most issues have either been clarified by the books, or discussed ad infinitum already, the ones coming up now seem to be either so trivial or just using the maxim "the more complicated, the better". Jo has demonstrated ample times that this is not how she works - if you hear the sound of hooves, think horse not zebra.

To this whole issue there is a very simple explanation: Sirius, Lupin, DD and Hagrid, as well as some other order people, knew where GH and the Potters were BEFORE the charm was cast. Jo never said that the charm worked backwards, and made people forget the secret if they knew it already - and that would be very odd indeed - imagine visiting someone, then finding out you can't remember where they live because someone cast a FC in the mean time... this is also why there is a risk to the order in the Black House, some DEs know already where it is, and could put 2 & 2 together without being told so. The FC only works after it has been cast, not before!

At least that is in my opinion, the simplest therefore the most likely, case.

Lili

April 9th, 2006, 10:56 pm

To this whole issue there is a very simple explanation: Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore and Hagrid, as well as some other order people, knew where GH and the Potters were BEFORE the charm was cast. Jo never said that the charm worked backwards, and made people forget the secret if they knew it already - and that would be very odd indeed - imagine visiting someone, then finding out you can't remember where they live because someone cast a FC in the mean time... this is also why there is a risk to the order in the Black House, some DEs know already where it is, and could put 2 & 2 together without being told so. The FC only works after it has been cast, not before!

You make a valid point. JKR hasn't said that the charm works backwards. Maybe it doesn't have to. From what I recall (and I'll read up on it later) the charm doesn't necesarily conceal the place rather the people inside. Someone said that Voldy could have his nose stuck right up to the Potter's window and wouldn't be able to see them without being told the secret. Which means, in my mind, that it was the Potters themselves that were concealed, not their house in Godric's Hollow. But since the members of the Order can't very well conceal themselves they had to conceal their meeting place. Therefore Grimmauld Place had the charm put on it, instead of on the Order members. And, its got more than just the FC charm on it for protection, if I recall.

jmas1357

April 11th, 2006, 6:58 pm

Loads of thought-provoking anaylsis, Lady Luipn. I think that is your specialty!

Two questions:

1. Can a Secret-Keeper announce to a room full of people, out loud, a secret? If so, couldn't Snape have been in the room with Voldemort when Wormtail told him where to find the Potters? And if so, might there have been others in the room as well?

2.The Invisibility Cloak. Jame's Invisibility Cloak that he loaned to Dumbledore. Where was it on the night the Potters were killed? And why was james so willing to loan it out when he knew he was being hunted by Voldemort? And why did Dumbledore want to borrow it? D tells Harry at the Mirror of Erised in Book 1 that he can become invisible without the aid of a cloak. Who did Dumbledore want to loan James's cloak to on that fateful day? Wormtail? Sirius? Severus? Someone else entirely?

We knnow where Uncle Vernon was on November 1st. We were with him. We are told that Petunia had a normal day at home with Dudders. We know that Minerva McGonagal spent the day spying on the Dursleys at Number 4 Privet Drive. We know that Hagrid picked up Harry and spent (?all day and into the evening?) ferrying him to Surrey to the Durlseys' house. We know that Sirius was at Godric's Hollow (he loaned Hargid his mnotorcycle there). And at some point Sirius and Wormtail met in the street and had a showdown. Sirius was apprehended almost immediately and was still laughing with hysteria about what had gone so terribly wrong. We know that Voldemort had lost his body and was spriting off to safety to lick his woounds somewhere. And we know loads of wizards were throwing caution to the winds and doing whatever they felt like doing to celebrate. What we don't know is where all of the characters in our story were. Lupin? Where was Remus that day? Was it a full moon? Was he incapacitated? Was he privy to the secret of James' and Lily's location? And most important, far more important than any other character -- where on earth was Dumbledore on Hallowe'en night and November 1st before we see him enter Privet Drive in the dark of evening the day after Lily and James were killed?

geonub

April 14th, 2006, 6:59 pm

Excellent analysis, but I have a question. Kreacher (if memory holds) was not subject to the Order of the Phoenix secret, he was bound by other magic (specifically to the Black family) that would ensure his silence. If being a "member" of the family lies outside the bounds of the magic of secret keeping then Harry will have similar exemption status,* not that he is a house elf*, but that he is a member of the family and the secret will not exclude him. So in theory, if Harry goes to find Godrick's Hollow, he will be able to see/access the house, but Ron and Hermoine will not... Just a thought - now I have to reread Phoenix!

spoon

April 14th, 2006, 10:01 pm

Pixydust

April 15th, 2006, 12:16 pm

Just two bits of thought to throw into the pot.

If Sirius hadn't gone to Azkaban, as Harry's Godfather he would have had custody of Harry. Dumbledore exerted a great deal of effort to make sure Harry resided with his Mother's bloodline. Could he have done this if Sirius had not gone to Azkaban? While Dumbledore does not lie, he also does not tell the entire truth. He may have known that Sirius wasn't the secret keeper but felt it was more important for Harry to be safe than for Sirius to be free.

Just some thoughts

spoon

:D Exactly!! Dumbledore knew about Sirius. If he knew that far back it certainly fit his objective to keep Harry safe.

Lili

April 18th, 2006, 6:14 am

Just two bits of thought to throw into the pot.

The Fidelius Charm - a secret inside a single, living soul. Can someone who has commited murder have a single living soul? Killing splits the soul. Can a split soul hold anything?

Wormtail is a Death Eater. Perhaps one has to kill someone to be a Death Eater. Maybe even a specific someone is named during an initiation rite? The act of killing may be the completion of the ritual to become a Death Eater. ( Draco isn't a full-fledged Death Eater until he kills Dumbledore) If Wormtail has killed someone to become a Death Eater, can his broken soul hold a secret?

Very interesting question. Wormtail must have been able to hold the secret, for clearly the charm worked in order for him to spill to voldemort. But that's an interesting thought to be sure.

If Sirius hadn't gone to Azkaban, as Harry's Godfather he would have had custody of Harry. Dumbledore exerted a great deal of effort to make sure Harry resided with his Mother's bloodline. Could he have done this if Sirius had not gone to Azkaban? While Dumbledore does not lie, he also does not tell the entire truth. He may have known that Sirius wasn't the secret keeper but felt it was more important for Harry to be safe than for Sirius to be free.

I have trouble believing that Dumbledore couldn't have a found a way to convince sirius that Harry would be safer living with the dursleys. Dumbledore may not always tell the whole truth - but I sincerely doubt that he would allow an innocent man to be locked up for thirteen years for something he did not do.

Can a Secret-Keeper announce to a room full of people, out loud, a secret? If so, couldn't Snape have been in the room with Voldemort when Wormtail told him where to find the Potters? And if so, might there have been others in the room as well?

I don't know if a secret keeper can dispell his/her secret to an entire room or not...however, I doubt that's how wormtail would have done it - or been allowed to do it by voldemort. These were secretive times on both sides of the war with spies going both ways. Information as vital as that secret would have been kept very close to the breast, so to speak.

Excellent analysis, but I have a question. Kreacher (if memory holds) was not subject to the Order of the Phoenix secret, he was bound by other magic (specifically to the Black family) that would ensure his silence. If being a "member" of the family lies outside the bounds of the magic of secret keeping then Harry will have similar exemption status,* not that he is a house elf*, but that he is a member of the family and the secret will not exclude him. So in theory, if Harry goes to find Godrick's Hollow, he will be able to see/access the house, but Ron and Hermoine will not... Just a thought - now I have to reread Phoenix!

That was a little confusing to work through...but I think I understand what you mean. Are you saying that you think Godric's Hollow may have had a house elf?

~Lili

HBprincesscaz

April 23rd, 2006, 1:07 pm

how have i never realised before how many holes there are in the secret-keeper explanation. this was an interesting editorial. i sometimes wonder whether there might just be the odd mistake in HP that isn't a cunning plot detail- but as that's blasphemy as far as JKRowling is concerned, i like your suggestions, and have a few of my own.
1) What if Dumbledore and Hagrid weren't told where the location was. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but if a house is in wreckage, in a place known to have connections to James and lily (that's the impression we get), reports are gonna spread pretty fast. and within 24hrs its quite feasible that dumbledore's gonna get his cronies up there to check it out, discover dead bodies and a baby harry, and get the kid out of there. plus, did dumbledore and hagrid even KNOW about the secret keeper plot until later? that would explain why they didn't suspect sirius. i'll go and look some things up and post again later.
2) snape. we never got an explanation as to why dumbledore trusted him- not that i accepted anyway. what if it was Snape who was given the piece of paper by wormtail, which he then took to dumbledore. oops- dumbledore doesn't get there on time- snape pleads innocence, but actually it was all part of maintaining his cover. why would wormtail give snape the paper though, since we know Snape holds him in utter contempt, and seemingly in prisoner of azkaban believes Sirius to be the criminal (although that is potentially and act). Maybe because, because it was Snape who heard the prophecy, Voldemort wanted him there in case he'd got it wrong? or maybe because wormtail was cowarding out?
3) i still want to know what happens to a secret when the caster of the charm dies. that could be key i think.

chezziej

April 23rd, 2006, 9:10 pm

From what I recall, the Fidelius Charm would have protected the Potters, not the house they were living in. If it only protected Godric's Hollow, they could have been killed when James gave Dumbledore the invisibility cloak before he died.

I seem to recall something, correct me if I'm wrong, about how Voldemort could look straight at them through the window of their house but wouldn't know they were there?

jcricket

April 24th, 2006, 4:51 am

If the fidelius charm is:

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it."

If this is the case then it makes sense that the secret that was concealed was the location of the potters, and not the location of Godric's Hollow, therefore allowing others to access Godric's Hollow once James and Lily were dead.

It also explains a lot about the secret of Number 12, Grimmauld Place. In HBP Dumbledore was so concerned about the security of Number 12, Grimmauld Place that he had the Order vacate the premises until they could determine that Harry is indeed the new owner and it is safe to go back. If it has been Fidelius charmed then this concern shouldn't have been necessary. However what if the secret is not the location of Number 12, Grimmauld Place but the fact that it is headquarters to the Order of the Phoenix? This would mean that even if Bellatrix does show up and has her nose against the window, she would still not know that the house is the location of the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix.

arnie240

April 24th, 2006, 11:20 pm

Good editorial - I would just like to mention one thing, however - it's the house in Godric's Hollow, not the village of Godric's Hollow itself that was hidden (IIRC).

In fact, it's not necessarily even the house, it's only the people that are protected - remember, DD (I think it's DD) says in reference to the Potters that "even if Voldemort was looking into their living room window, he wouldn't have been able to see them". So you can see the house even when the Potters are inside, you just can't see the Potters themselves. Which would explain why the Muggles could come swarming around after the explosion. Obviously though, you can also protect a building, like #12 Grimmauld Place.

Also, regards Hagrid and DD suspecting Sirius...well, I'm certainly surprised DD didn't say anything when Hagrid said he'd be returning the bike to Sirius, because he knew who the Secret Keeper was (or at least, was supposed to be), but Hagrid didn't know anything about who the Secret Keeper was - he says that in the pub in Hogsmeade in PoA. So he must have been told by note (I agree that's the only really likely scenario) where to find the Potters but he apparently doesn't know that the note should have come from Sirius.

WMLizard

April 26th, 2006, 12:26 am

This is probably completely far-fetched and unrealistic, but it's the only way the Secret Keeper deal has made any sense to me in regards to Harry and Godric's Hollow. I believe the Secret was the location of James and Lily Potter. Like a previous poster theorized, only Wormtail was able to give their location at any specific point in time-"James and Lily are at the mall".

But why, it was asked, would they remain in Godric's Hollow, a place it was expected that they would be? I don't think we have any proof that they lived in Godric's Hollow before. So perhaps it was an unexpected location.

And I think only James and Lily were "invisible". This explains why they would hang out at home a lot-hard to have two invisible people carrying a baby. But if Harry's the one in danger, why not hide him, too? Because accidents happen. If it had been just James and Lily, no Harry, and something happened to one of them-a fall, a heart attack, a run-in with a dragon, the other could survive, invisible, alone. But if something happened to his parents, as an infant, Harry would die. So when the house exploded (still unexplained, since AK doesn't normally leave marks or explode things), and James and Lily were dead, Harry was there, visible, in the rubble.

There were still risks, of course-what if Voldemort came wandering through town, intent on checking every house in the UK for the Potters? If his nose was pressed against the window, he'd see Baby Harry. But really-would he recognize a baby? James and Lily, however, were probably very recognizable to the wizarding world. So hiding them did, in effect, hide Harry.

I'm sure there are holes, so poke away!

Gmariam

April 27th, 2006, 2:46 am

I'm sure there are holes, so poke away!

I think your question - Why did the Potters remain in Godric's Hollow, if it was expected they would be there? - is a really good one! There has been some speculation that there is a connection between the Potters and this particular location, with this particular name; specifically, that Godric's Hollow has some sort of connection to Godric Gryffindor, and so perhaps the Potters did as well. Dumbledore believed that Voldemort was making his last Horcrux with the death of the Potters, and that he was trying to use relics from each house, so perhaps there was a Gryffindor relic in Godric's Hollow, perhaps even the Potters had it. BUT, if the Potters had just settled in Godric's Hollow to hide, then perhaps it's all a red herring! ;)
As for Voldemort seeing baby Harry, JKR implies that Harry was included in the Fidelius charm:

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

So, she refers to the *family* in hiding, and says that if *one* was captured, they could not reveal the location of the other *two*. That makes me believe that Harry was indeed a part of the charm. It was baby Harry that the prophecy referred to, after all - baby Harry that Voldemort set out to destroy. It would make more sense to protect him than it would James and Lily.
But, I still wonder why the charm didn't keep protecting Harry after Lilly and James were killed. JKR says on her website that:

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

The secret dies with the Secret-Keeper; unfortunetly, we don't know what happens when the subject of the secret dies! I still think the best explanation is that when Pettigrew broke trust with the Potters by telling Voldemort, he violated the fidelity of the charm, and that's when it and why it broke, and that's why Harry will be able to get to Godric's Hollow and do whatever he needs to do.

It's tricksy, it is - but fun to puzzle out :)
~Gina

SusanBones

April 27th, 2006, 3:00 am

But, I still wonder why the charm didn't keep protecting Harry after Lilly and James were killed.
~Gina
That is an interesting thought. If the secret is still active, then does that mean that Harry will be hidden when he goes into the rubble of the house, since he is once again in the hiding place?

Actually, I think the secret died, for reasons mentioned earlier. Therefore, the charm stoped protecting Harry.

justaHPfan

May 2nd, 2006, 4:16 am

This was a great editorial. I haven't read all the posts here but thought I would throw out one more thought that the editorial didn't mention. My apologies if this has been covered. :blush: Dumbledore may not have needed a note or contact with the SK to know the location of the Potters. The charm keeps those who know and who will know from speaking it - it doesn't erase the memory of those who already know. I'm of the opinion that Dumbledore, at least, already knew the location of the Potters before the charm was cast. What I'm not sure, though, is why Dumbledore didn't react to Hagrid's statement about using Sirius' bike. Perhaps it wasn't the place? How did Fudge know that "barely a week after the charm was performed" the Potters were attacked? The likely answer is Dumbledore told the Ministry what he knew and Fudge gathered it that way, but just how did Dumbledore find out?

I liked your points (from the editorial) that Sirius handing out notes would further perpetuate his being the SK. :tu: Though, if they (or Sirius) believed Remus to be the spy as Sirius seems to indicate in the Shrieking Shack, I doubt Remus would have been given a note. Also, I too thought about the implications of Snape knowing that Wormtail was SK (even if he believed him dead) and his actions towards Sirius in PoA. :evil:
This has bothered me (the whole Secret-Keeper, Fidelius Charm, Godric's Hollow/#12) for quite some time and I'm glad you wrote about it - good job! :clap:

KathyH

May 15th, 2006, 1:09 am

Good editorial - I would just like to mention one thing, however - it's the house in Godric's Hollow, not the village of Godric's Hollow itself that was hidden (IIRC).
I agree, both about the editorial being good and the house being hidden not the village. Although i could be wrong, wasn't it the location of the Potters not the house that was the secret. Obviously the house might still be hidden, but i assumed that someone could maybe see the house but wouldn't find Lily and James and Baby Harry there. Or that the house was invisible like 12 Grimauld Place because it was the headquaters of the order. Or something.

Nanker

May 27th, 2006, 1:35 pm

I think Lilly Potter owned Crookshanks and He will accompany Hermione, Ron and Harry to Godric's Hollow and will reveal the location of the Potter home.
JKR said only that a human would have to be told by PP the location. Crookshanks - if this theory is correct - is not a human, and would recognize his former home. Voila!

HandofFate

July 13th, 2006, 1:39 am

I am so glad to see someone put their ideas to the test of public scrutiny and comment. Your flawless logic in most cases makes it a joy to read everything you write. The idea of the Fidelius Charm brings up some interesting questions to be sure, but one that I haven't heard too much about is what happens to people who may have had prior knowledge when the charm took effect.

The reason I mention this is quite simple really. Let us suppose that by now Albus Dumbledore has heard the prophecy and Snape has related it to Lord Voldemort. The time for the Potters to go into hiding has come. Lily and James must have been completely beside themselves with worry. I am also sure gratitude toward Dumbledore for letting them know of the prophecy so they could hide baby Harry.

This is where I think that JKR may have duped us all. It maybe quite simple really. One conversation with Dumbledore and the Potters may have been given the name of a place where the magic from Godric Gryffindor was still strong and would add another layer of protection. Dumbledore may have actually been the one to give them the place to go. He may have taught them the Fidelius Charm and initialized it, allowing them to select the secretkeeper. From there, I think you are along the right track.

I think Dumbledore has always had more up his sleeve than JKR let us know. I think he knew where to find the Potters and had no reason to fear when he though the secretkeeper was Sirius. For this reason, as JKR showed us many times, Dumbledore again let his trust in people sway him. He never imagined that Lily and James would switch the secretkeeper. The traitorous Petter Pettigrew now had the opportunity to frame Sirius with his biggest supporter Dumbledore sure that it must have been him who betrayed the Potters.

When the news arrived, I'm sure that Dumbledore was aware that the Fidelius Charm had been broken by the death of those it was designed to protect so he was able to tell Hagrid. It doesn't say that the secret is unknowable, it says it is unspeakable and untransferable by anyone other than that secretkeeper as long as it was in force.

I know that this has been a long reply, but I think that this is the simplest and most direct way of explaining the complexity of the evening. Dumbledore knew either because the Potters told him where they were going or he told them where to hide. The Fidelius Charm would then prevent him from being able to divulge it, but would not make him forget where.

Hand of Fate
7/12/2006

Matthias25

July 20th, 2006, 5:39 am

Lately everyone has been very focused on the fact that Lily was skilled at charms. I don't why you never touched on the idea that she might have been the one to cast the charm and therefore after she died the house in Godric's Hollow became visible on her death. And did Dumbledore really act like he believed in Sirius' guilt in PoA? He was never one to gossip at Rosemerta's and never refered to Sirius as a murderer. He seemed to be actively sitting on the edge of the situation. Dumbledore never lets on to exactly how much he knows but he isn't afraid to let people know that "this doesn't seem right" and continue to be cautious.

Phoenix95

July 23rd, 2006, 9:21 pm

Maybe you guys covered this but I was under the impression that the Fidelious charm is a really complex spell and that wormtail is not a very gifted wizard I always figured James or Lily preforms the charm because wormtail isn't an able enough wizard so when wormtail betrays them Voldemort Kills them then the charm would be gone and anyone would be able to find them after that. I thought that is how Hagrid was able to find them.
Just a thought

seawhitelady

August 31st, 2006, 2:41 am

Hi,
I was thinking that Sirius would have alerted Dumbledore. He is present when Pettigrew kills the muggles. Why is he there? Because he has become aware of the betrayal.

I think the charm ceases when either the Secret Keeper or the charm maker-Lily, dies. Sirius is made aware of the betrayal by some other means. He is a member of Order of the Phoenix and can send a patronus message, logically he sent one to D/dore. Hagrid is then sent by D/dore and Harry is saved by him riding off on Sirius motorbike- obviously Harry was with Sirius at this point and so rescued by him initially. Then Sirius seeks Pettigrew and gets framed.

yours in fun
seawhitelady

mo1

August 31st, 2006, 6:36 pm

I think the charm ceases when either the Secret Keeper or the charm maker-Lily, dies. Sirius is made aware of the betrayal by some other means. He is a member of Order of the Phoenix and can send a patronus message, logically he sent one to D/dore. Hagrid is then sent by D/dore and Harry is saved by him riding off on Sirius motorbike- obviously Harry was with Sirius at this point and so rescued by him initially. Then Sirius seeks Pettigrew and gets framed.

Sorry but there are a few mistakes among your statements.
JRK explained on her FAQ Poll what happen when a secret-keeper die, and what she wrote is the Fidelius Charm remain. However she never said what happen the caster od the spell die.

About the patronuses, each one is unique to the wizard who conjure it, so if Sirius had sent a patrinus messenger to Dumbledore, Dumbledore would have known who it was from, and therefore would have suspected that Sirius was unlikely to be tha traitor. What is more he would also have known about Sirius' version of the story (i.e. Peter is the true Secret-keeper and traitor).

Now, about your theory of Harry being recued from the house by Sirius and then given to Hagrid, that makes no sense. Re-read PoA, it's clearly explained Hagrid arrived first, took Harry from the house, then Sirius arrived, asked Hagrid to give him his godson, but Hagrid refused, so Sirius gave him his motorbike to help a bit and then went chase Wormtail.
The idea was good and an easy way to explain the Fidelius Charm problem, but it doesn't suit at all with canon.

charleysylver

August 31st, 2006, 9:41 pm

The first theory is surprising because I don't believe I have heard anyone consider it... What if Lily, James and Harry weren't the only ones in the house when old Voldy came to call?
James had an invisibility cloak, someone else could have been wearing it when Voldy came in and got so caught up with trying to kill James then Lilly and finally Harry, that he didn't think to Legilimize if anyone else was there.
But who that person was? Sirius? Hagrid? Dumbledore? RAB in a full body bind and under the cloak like Harry almost 16 years later as he witnessed the death of Dumbledore? Did this person see Voldy take out an ancient looking artifact as he stepped towards Harry, and guess that he was planning to make a horcrux?
Makes you think dunnit?

And the second theory, is one that I am sure is in the back of everybody's mind, we just don't want to consider it... Maybe JK Rowling made a mistake?
Yeah that's right, I said it. JK Rowling continues to amaze all of us with the rich detail and complex plotting of her books. Everything seems to have a purpose, and even unnecessary seeming things have a richly detailed history. But what if she made a mistake? What if she wrote herself into a corner, something that even the greatest writers have done... What if she wrote and published the first book before she looked into the night of James and Lilly's deaths with the obsessive tenacity that we all do today? Sure, she did and amazing amount of planning, but what if one little detail like this whole secret keeper business was published without her looking at it exhaustingly, from every single angle, like we do?

I hope I'm wrong about this, but we should all at least consider this possibility when things just don't seem to add up. We owe JKR that much. She isn't perfect, she's human, and humans make mistakes.
Because there is also the possibility that even after book 7, we will still have questions.

Well, those are my theories... I told you they would surprise you!

Whatonearth

September 13th, 2006, 12:50 am

well....

I'd just like to ask if i'm wrong in supposing that anyone could know where the house was, they just wouldn't be able to see/touch it

xibie3

October 3rd, 2006, 1:00 am

its all a good thery but whats the point of anylyzeing it?

whos_who

January 14th, 2007, 4:26 am

I love lady lupins work. but still, rather than answering questions, you did a lot of asking this time. why? but as to your theories... im not sure that snape could have been there at godrics hollow on dumbledores orders. how would dumbledore have known to send snape there to watch over godrics hollow, when a) the potters (or at least james) hated snape and wouldnt have wanted sirius or peter to reveal their loctaion to him. dumbledore would know that and i find it a betrayl of their trust to do intentionaly what they would not have approved of... no i think he was there with the rat and the sanke (peter and tom). i seems much more liek snape dont you think? anyways thats enough for today. LATERZ!

p.s. cool theoris everyone!

Quote form Nanker:
JKR said only that a human would have to be told by PP the location. Crookshanks - if this theory is correct - is not a human, and would recognize his former home. Voila!]

What/who is PP? not really that up to date on the abrevos! srry but id like that answered.....
oh yeah and the one theory from someone (couldnt find who) said that someone was there at the time harry potters parents were murdered. I think that it would be most logical that that person should be hagid. hagrid would have been able to notify dumbledore about the potters deaths (perhaps by floo powder, seeing as the house was left in ruins, suggestions of a fire that harige couldnt have put out until petegrew left.) and then been told to bring harry to petunias therupon does sirius arrive. is it possible that cowardly Rat might have taken polyjuice potion to assume siruis' form for the sake of making himself appear innocent and therefore seal sirius as a traitore to the potters and all wizard kind. many questions for so few answers.....

BublGumPnkHar

January 14th, 2007, 12:56 pm

Quote form Nanker:
JKR said only that a human would have to be told by PP the location. Crookshanks - if this theory is correct - is not a human, and would recognize his former home. Voila!]

What/who is PP? not really that up to date on the abrevos! srry but id like that answered.....
oh yeah and the one theory from someone (couldnt find who) said that someone was there at the time harry potters parents were murdered. I think that it would be most logical that that person should be hagid. hagrid would have been able to notify dumbledore about the potters deaths (perhaps by floo powder, seeing as the house was left in ruins, suggestions of a fire that harige couldnt have put out until petegrew left.) and then been told to bring harry to petunias therupon does sirius arrive. is it possible that cowardly Rat might have taken polyjuice potion to assume siruis' form for the sake of making himself appear innocent and therefore seal sirius as a traitore to the potters and all wizard kind. many questions for so few answers.....

You have answered your own question, PP is the Rat (Peter Pettigrew). All bolding by me.

TKoko

April 1st, 2007, 6:19 am

I love it. Great research and ideas

SenSsepore

April 4th, 2007, 9:35 pm

Well, have you ever thought that if the people the spell is protecting die, that the spell is void and would no longer be active?

Its quite simple, you're making a big thing out of nothing, mate.

destany

April 6th, 2007, 4:35 am

Well, have you ever thought that if the people the spell is protecting die, that the spell is void and would no longer be active?

Its quite simple, you're making a big thing out of nothing, mate.

Ah no, you're forgetting that Harry was NOT dead, and certainly the spell would have been to protect him too? Afterall, was Harry not the reason the Potters needed such protection? After the prophecy, the Potters knew that their baby was in danger.

But I do agree this feels more simple than the editorial makes it out to be. All the bits about notes and papers with a secret adress. This certainly could explain why Dumbledore and Hagrid knew of the location of the Potters home, and would immediately know where to go once they were told of trouble there. That explains how they could know the location without being aware that the Potters had changed secret keeper.

But one question which has not been answered is this: Potters are in the house in Godricks Hollow when Sirius is made Secret Keeper. The location does not move, but in secret, the Keeper is switched. Since the Potters didn't move, wouldn't the people who have been told in the first place by Sirius still KNOW? Don't you think they'd notice if they woke up one morning and couldn't remember it? Wouldn't they be suspicious if they'd been told by Sirius, and suddenly Sirius is coming up to them with bits of paper, telling them again?

That's a pretty big hole, and not one I feel can be explained other than to say that those who knew the whereabouts of the Potters in the first place, were unaware of the switch because they did not need to be retold. There is no cannon to suggest that if a Keeper is changed, all who knew the secret before hand should suddenly forget it. I think it's safe at this point to assume that they didn't, because to think otherwise leaves us with questions that can't be explained.

Furthermore, it IS clear that muggles and others could see the rubble of Godricks Hollow once the Potters were killed. It's cannon. And it should therefore, still be viewable today. Harry doesn't need to try and wheedle the location from Petunia, he could simply go there.
As for WHY this is, I think is pretty explainable, and is explained well enough in the editorial. We know that one of the four (Lily, James, Sirius or Wormtail) had to have performed the fideleous charm, making Wormtail the new Keeper. We know from the end of HBP that when a wizard dies, their existing magical spell can be broken. Harry could not have moved off of that astronomy tower if Dumbledore were not dead. And he was absolutely certain that because he COULD move, his fear was instantly confirmed.
If Lily or James performed the charm, it's not a great leap to assume the charm would have broken when they died and the neighbors in Godricks Hollow would suddenly be aware of a blown up house they didn't know existed. And like the editorial states, Lily's wand being good for Charms is an awfully good clue to lead us into that line of thinking.

Afterall, per the FAQ, - when the KEEPER dies, the secret remains in tact. But she didn't say the secret would remain in tact if the CASTER dies.

nickfaceelbow

April 20th, 2007, 9:59 pm

None of Sirius' friends rose to his defense. Dumbledore, Hagrid and Remus were all mum. No one stood up and said, "Wait, Sirius is innocent. He cannot be guilty because he is not the Secret-Keeper. It's Peter Pettigrew." This indicates that none of these people were given the Potters' location by Peter. If Dumbledore, Remus and Hagrid had known the location of Godric's Hollow, it seems they would also have known that Sirius was innocent and Peter was the Secret-Keeper and therefore the guilty party. Surely they would have spoken up for Sirius. Presumably, no one but James, Lily (probably), Sirius and Peter seems to have known of the switch.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. I have a reason to believe that at least Hagrid knew that Sirius was innocent, and knowing Hagrid's secret keeping abilities, it's fairly safe to assume that the others did as well.

From Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, paperback edition, page 61-62:

'I bet I'm in Hufflepuff,' said Harry gloomily.
'Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin,' said Hagrid darkly. 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one.'

This was before Prisoner of Azkaban, obviously, and since Sirius Black was in Gryffindor, and not in Slytherin, it seems that Hagrid knows that Sirius didn't "go bad". Of course, I could be mistaken, and maybe Hagrid just didn't think of Sirius when he said that, but it looks like he's quite convinced of what he's saying.

rosetta

May 8th, 2007, 5:43 am

I skimmed through a few of the previous pages and I don't think this was brought up yet. Forgive me if someone had mentioned this already:

It is apparent that either James or Lily was the one who cast this Charm. Most assume it is Lily. Regardless, both of those individuals were dead before Hagrid or Sirius showed up on the scene. While it is true that a secret stays in place after the keeper dies, shouldn't this charm work like any other spell. Wouldn't it have ended the moment it's CASTER is dead? Just as the body-bind ended at Dumbledore's death at the end of HBP, when a witch or wizard dies, any spells they currently have in effect stop working. I don't see why the Fidelius Charm should be any different.

BrunetteLily

May 21st, 2007, 10:08 pm

I am really sorry if someone else has already posted this, but I don't have enough time to trawl through nine pages of posts.

I believe that Hagrid and the muggles that were swarming around had no problem finding or getting into Lily and James's home. I think that, since only James, Lily, Sirius, and Peter knew about the switch, and Dumbledore didn't, that Lily must have cast the Fidelius Charm, due to the fact that Ollivander told us that she had a wand that was especially good for charms. This probably would have made her the best charm-caster. Since we know that Dumbledore's petrificus totalus on Harry stopped when Dumbledore died, we learned that spells die with their caster. Therefore, the Fidelius Charm would have stopped when Lily died, so no one would have had any trouble finding the house since. This makes sense to me, but I'll check back later to see what everyone else's opinions on this are.

Oops. I guess the person right before me said the same thing! Sorry about that! Great minds think alike, rosetta!

Oops. I guess the person right before me said the same thing! Sorry about that! Great minds think alike, rosetta!

Liselle

May 22nd, 2007, 11:54 am

That's true, I'd assumed that it was Dumbledore who cast the spell ~ for some reason it just didnt' cross my mind that it was Lily or James or possibly even Peter himself who cast it. Lily does seem the most likely candidate though as her wand was good for charms as a number of people have pointed out.

Casper7mm

June 8th, 2007, 5:08 am

I didn't see if this was mentioned, but who said it had to be the house or even the village that was under the fidelius charm, why not just the Potter's, In PoA Flitwick says somethilng about it, saying you-know-who could put his nose to the Potter's drawing room window and wouldn't see them, so that makes me think it was just the Potter's. Still not sure how Hagrid found Harry unless the spell wasn't on Harry.

horcrux88

June 10th, 2007, 5:29 am

my assumption is that dumbledore cast the charm on the potters, why on earth he didnt choose to be secret keeper is the real question that needs to be asked dumbledore is the defualt go-to guy when any one's life is in parell at the hands of voldemort any other candiate could have been broken or tortured or even murdered, or a spy in the case of wormtail. we no he was secret keeper for the order, why not for the potters? even if that was the most obvios person, does it matter voldemort clearly knew his match was in dumbledore. but they tried to bluff with peter and they were going to use sirius in the first place. i mean thats just wreckless, no doubt sirius would have died to protect james and lily . but no one needed to die.Or did they, now this is where i delve into the dark side of dumbledores mind bare with me.

"the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord aproches...born to those who have thrice defied him,born as the seventh month dies...and the dark lord will mark him as his equal,but he will have power the dark lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the seventh month dies.chapter 37 ootp.

OK one person knew that full prophecy when it was spoken, albus dumbledore. in his own mind that could mean two things either alice longbotton son or lily potters son for they were the only ones along with there spouses who had thrice defied him. now we dont no exacly when the prophecy was made so we dont know if the two women were yet pregnant, how ever when dumbledore became aware of both pregnancys. he also became aware that the beginings of that prophecy were at work but was he expecting two options? now harry and neville's birth days took place as planed at the end of july in 1980 tho harrys was one day after thats neither here nor there. but the answer for dumbledore was not clear cut yet and if the part about voldemort marking him as his equal was correct, then buy the time it was clear cut it would be to late to act, assuming he did act. did dumbledore know exacly what was involved in the phrase he will mark him as his equal did he no that involed the death curse if he did then he would know that there is only one existent counter curse and that would be the power the dark lord knows not.love. but in order for the prophecy to come true voldemort would obviosly need to find the potters or the longbottoms and dumbledore knew that, and he knew that the prophecy had to come true or voldemort would never be vanquished. my pondery is simply this did dumbledore know the potters, spesifiaclly lily had to die for harry providing him the protection he needed to be marked rather then killed. the same applys to the longbottoms at the time of course it is a possiblity that dumbledore preformed two fidelius charms one upon the potters and one upon the longbottoms. but this leads be back to the begining why wormtail as the secret keeper someone so weak and spinless rather then the mighty dumbledore. perhaps dumbledore knew all along of his real loyalty. and fully intended him to go to voldemort with the potters hiding place. so that he would kill them and seal the prophecy. but did this happen with out the potters knowlage or did they agree to make that sacrifice for the good of mankind.... indeed it may not be wormtails secret, but perhaps dumbledores.

"you will" said dumbledore steadily "because you are not nearly as angry with me as you ought to be" 37 ootp