As Clear As Water

Discussion of the editorial As Clear As Water (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-erezr01.shtml) by Erez R.

Well written & I admit I'd never have taken the water in the lake as anything other than water. However as much as I'd like to believe you I think Dumbledore is dead

It was an excellent editorial. Very interesting. I would have never thought of the water that way - but it does seem to be the type of thing that Jo would hide so well!

One thing is how come Dumbledore didn't realise that the "water" wasn't really water?

great editorial and really well-written and thought out. i had noticed a while back JKRs descrptions of the lake were a bit odd (eg that it was always still and like a mirror) but never thought that it could have meant something other than a metaphor. very interesting!

that was a great editorial. it really makes you believe it was not water at all. even then one thing is intriguing, even though Dumbledore knew that "...[Voldemort] would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island," why did he drink that potion.

I still believe Dumbledore is dead but man, what a GREAT editorial. I haven't read one that good since over a year or more (except maybe for the ones of the Underground lake). It was well written and the knowledge we got from it was very precise. I really believe that that was how Jo wanted the lake to be, because everything looks so perfect in the editorial.

Best editorial I have read in a looooong time. I really like the idea of the water actually being the potion--you make your point believable and understandable. I agree with TheMalteseFan, you make everything fit together so perfectly that you practically HAVE to believe it.

That is the first editorial I've read in months, possibly even the first since HBP came out, and it's got to be one of the most convincing ones I've ever read!

It was really well thought out and clearly explained. I think you're on to something there. I don't know how you managed to spot all those wee clues, but great work!!!

Very good, I think you maybe on to something.

A fact that you didn't quote is that Dumbledore didn't actually drink the water from the lake. Harry stumbled and spilled the water on his Face. It is likely that he did injest some of the water, but not a lot. And also notice that the living dead did not go after Dumbledore, but after harry. the one that was standing up. So the pieces do fit together.

I think if we look further in the book, we will find that most of the description of Dumbledore as they leave the cave, return to the school, and the conversation with Draco, can be viewed as either reaction to the potion in the basin or Dumbledore fighting the affects of a sleeping potion. Just how would a small amount of draft of the living death affect a very old, but extreamely powerful wizard? I dont know.

Now, you are correct that we could extend this to suggest that DD did not die, but was in a very deep sleep. Exspecially when you consider that no where was there mention as to DD being examed by any Healer, not even Madam P. How could he survive the fall? his own power? Snape is a very powerful Wizard and could have faked the killing curse.

I want to make it clear that I am as confused about DD being dead as anyone, other than Jo, herself. The evidence points in many directions, as it should. Like a complex multi dimensional puzzle, the pieces may fit, but the picture might not be right because the pieces might fit elsewhere.

pardon me. I didn't' actually read the editorial, I am sure it is good. however I wanted to mention that I am quite certain what we saw in HBP was the real potion, I have a feeling RAB was able to reach into the potion unlike Albus and Harry because he had a dark mark. I also if for some reason he did have to drink the potion (or if his little house elf did) why wouldn't we suppose he couldn't replace the potion ?

sorry I should go read the article, I am starting to think that this may be covered in the editorial

This was an excelent editorial. But why would Jo go to such lenghts to show that Dumblebore was suffering from the effects of a Sleeping potion to just kill him. Take the full step and say what we are all thinking now. Dumbledore is alive.
Perhaps the protrait is not a true indicator of death as Harry supposed, Afterall what was the portrait doing in the head masters office....... Sleeping!

Brilliant!!! I think you are on the right track.I don't think DD is still sleping though.

A good argument which now raises many doubts in my mind on Dumbledore's death - faked or real? However I hope this hasn't made Dumbledore a Zombie or anything - living death????? I hope he's not in a catatonic trance and buried alive - reminiscent of Edgar Allen Poe and The Premature Burial and is really dead - unless of course he can use his magic to make a comeback - reminiscent of Gandalf and LOTR which would not please quite a few readers judging by past posts on various topics.There is a question as to who actually pronounced him dead - we don't find out in the HBP and I assume Poppy would have been called to verify death and discount any possiblility of resussitation/ressurection or something -we just simply just are not told. Now we will all be wondering what exactly happened to Dumbledore. My theory is that if Snape hadn't stepped in when he did Fenrir or another Deatheater may have finished him off in a less humane way and then done the same to Draco. Well that's my two cents worth. What do the reat of you think???

Wow.

I thought you'd have somehow lost it by now, Mugglenet. I wrote this editorial 6 months ago, and couldn't possibly wait that long, so I opened a thread about it in the History of Magic forum which, I'm glad to say, has sprouted a 40 page-worth of discussion and theory analysis. So if you have anything to say about it you'll probably find it was already said here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=79218).

While this idea seems quite raw in this editorial, it was discussed so extensively and so many points have been fleshed out that I now feel I can provide myself an answer to every little question about what happened in HBP. Of course, this is all speculation, but my ideas are always the offspring of the books' informative text, and many things seem so clear to me now, ideas that even touch the definite end of the series.

So, if you have any question, ask away. :)

cryoz - did you write the Mugglenet editorial under a different name? I'm familiar with the thread and so I thought maybe someone else used your ideas for an editorial. :huh:

cryoz - did you write the Mugglenet editorial under a different name? I'm familiar with the thread and so I thought maybe someone else used your ideas for an editorial. :huh:

Yes, I wrote it under another name. I just felt like making up some weird username when I registered.

lol. Great editorial! I would have never thought of that and now I'm really convinced thats the story behind it. I'm not sure about dumbledore not being dead, because jo did say someone would die...but it makes perfect sense that it was the draught of living death and that snape used a non-verbal spell to make it look like he was killing dumbledore. that was one of the best editorials I have ever read! Bravo! :clap:

keep up the good work!

I will have to say that, that was a far better explanation than most people and it would make sense wouldn't it.

Excellent editorial. yet, have you considered that Snape may have done Dumbledore a favor by killing him? I am sure Dumbledore is dead. If Dumbledore did drink the Draught of living death, as it appears, then he probably would have ended up worse than dead. Snape may have recognized the effects of the potion, and killed him realizing that he could keep his cover by basically mercy killing.

I have always been of the opinion that Dumbledore was dead, and that was all there was to it ... then I read this! Execellent Editoral! I think you may have made me change my mind. :)

Sooo...the green potion in the basin causes the drinker to need water, the only other source of liquid being the lake. When the lake is disturbed, the Inferi are awakened...What are the Inferi's purpose? To hold the sleeper captive (assuming the lake is the Draught) in the lake till Voldy returns? What do Inferi normally do when attacking?

Oh man, I have been CRAVING an editorial like this for ages. It's been awhile since I've read an article so well-written that it made me question things I thought were fact, so great job.

I, unfortunately, still believe that Dumbledore is dead. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised if your theory of the potion played a part in the last book. You're right--such unnatural descriptions of the lake combined with facts we learned about the Drought of the Living Dead are exactly the type of clues Jo is so good at hiding from us.

I hope your theory is at least partially correct, it's fantastic and easily believable.

but what would be the point of even bothering to make someone fall into a deep sleep, if the enormous army of Inferi is already posed to drag you into the water?

:)

Sooo...the green potion in the basin causes the drinker to need water, the only other source of liquid being the lake. When the lake is disturbed, the Inferi are awakened...What are the Inferi's purpose? To hold the sleeper captive (assuming the lake is the Draught) in the lake till Voldy returns? What do Inferi normally do when attacking?

I have a guess, which is derived from a parallel drawn between the Inferi and another thing in the books. It has been brought up during the discussion in the other thread that Inferi are very much like the Devil's Snare. They fear light and warmth - fire, which leads us to think that perhaps they share another trait (analogy is used abundantly in the HP books).

Perhaps the Inferi, like the Devil's Snare, react against motion and resistance. If the Inferi detected movement after the "water" was disturbed, they would entrap the victim until the latter stopped resisting. This would, of course, prove handy, as Dumbledore regained his conciousness after ingesting the Draught (from the events in the book we can learn that drinking the Draught after drinking the green "potion" wakes you up and then slowly exhausts you until you fall asleep). Dumbledore, however, knew the Inferi's weak point and conjured fire to repel them. So, basically, the Inferi's purpose is to hold the intruder who ingested the Draught in the cave until the latter falls asleep which they would interpret as a lack of resistance.

but what would be the point of even bothering to make someone fall into a deep sleep, if the enormous army of Inferi is already posed to drag you into the water?

That is explained by Dumbledore in the book and also mentioned in the editorial. Voldemort would want to keep the intruder alive long enough in order to find out how he'd managed to penetrate through his defenses. So it is possible that the Inferi's purpose was not only or at all to drag you into the water and drown you.

:)

(from the events in the book we can learn that drinking the Draught after drinking the green "potion" wakes you up and then slowly exhausts you until you fall asleep)

Awesome explanation!

But I'm still a little confused about why the potion would work as described above. Why would it wake the victim only to then cause him to slumber? To get him to move around so the Inferi are stimulated? I don't have my book handy...do we know if the Inferi went after only Harry (who was up and moving) or Dumbly as well? And is Dumbly totally still at this point (after drinking the green potion)? That would make some sense.....

The Potion in the Basin did glow, but what if it was made to glow? Dumbledore kinda went loopy when he drank the potion, right? What if the potion was salt water? That would explain the torturous time after drinking it, his loopy responses, and the fact that he would still have a thirst for real water.

Before reading the other posts, I have to say that is was freakin Brillant.
I would have never discovered the clues, especially the one hidden in PS. Crazy.

I still believe that Dumbledore is dead, thoroughly and completely dead, but if Harry (probably with Hermione's help) does eventually figure out that the "water" was indeed Drought of Living Death, then that may help the trio be more cautious and prepared during their horcrux hunt.

Excellent! I've been thinking the same thing! Excellent!

One thing though, I thought Slughorn actually told the students they were brewing the Draught of Living Death. Because, after saying what it was he said something about how it was a hard potion, above their level, and he didn't expect them to be able to make it perfectly. I think he told them, in the American Edition at least.

Again, excellent!

Awesome explanation!

But I'm still a little confused about why the potion would work as described above. Why would it wake the victim only to then cause him to slumber? To get him to move around so the Inferi are stimulated? I don't have my book handy...do we know if the Inferi went after only Harry (who was up and moving) or Dumbly as well? And is Dumbly totally still at this point (after drinking the green potion)? That would make some sense.....

I have a guess about that too, but I don't want to give it away completely. It deserves more than a one paragraph explanation, so I'll probably save it for another editorial. :)

I shall only say that, possibly, the green liquid may serve as a dehydrator, and the abrupt presence of cold liquid (the Draught) in Dumbledore's body undid its effects, and caused the sudden awakening.

The Potion in the Basin did glow, but what if it was made to glow? Dumbledore kinda went loopy when he drank the potion, right? What if the potion was salt water? That would explain the torturous time after drinking it, his loopy responses, and the fact that he would still have a thirst for real water.

This is a creative idea, but I have a feeling it was something more "magical".

One thing though, I thought Slughorn actually told the students they were brewing the Draught of Living Death. Because, after saying what it was he said something about how it was a hard potion, above their level, and he didn't expect them to be able to make it perfectly. I think he told them, in the American Edition at least.

Yes, he did. I just wanted to suspend this piece of information for an ultimate surprise. :)

i agree, but this theory was presented long ago here in cosforums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdeligan
cryoz - did you write the Mugglenet editorial under a different name? I'm familiar with the thread and so I thought maybe someone else used your ideas for an editorial.


Yes, I wrote it under another name. I just felt like making up some weird username when I registered.
Well congratulations on your editorial (finally) getting published. :)

i agree, but this theory was presented long ago here in cosforums
Are you thinking of the The Potion Dumbledore Drank: Clearly Not Green (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=79218)? The person who started that thread is the same one who wrote this editorial, although it is confusing as they are under different names. According to Cryoz's first post on this thread, the editorial was submitted six months ago so for those who frequent the COS forums, the idea is not new because the author wisely started his/her own thread on the theory.

One of the best editorials I've read in ages. It makes a lot of sense. Now I know why Dumbledore really wanted to see Snape out of all people when he got back to Hogwarts instead of Madam Pomfrey or Slughorn or anyone else. He knew that the horrid liquid (the idea that there was decaying corpses in there still grosses me out) that he drank was the Draught of Living Death and Snape is possibly (being the brilliant man he is) one of the few or only Potions Master in the world that would have an antidote.

I don't know about Dumbledore still being alive though. Snape made an Unbrakeable Vow. If he really did not kill Dumbledore, he would have dropped dead on the spot. Or maybe... I don't know. There's too much to think of. I'll post more on this later.

I just wanted to suspend this piece of information for an ultimate surprise. :)

K, now I'm curious...do you think Sluggy was in on it? Maybe Voldy forced him to create these potions/protections? What's your theory? Please don't hold back! Or have you already discussed this idea in the other thread?

I shall only say that, possibly, the green liquid may serve as a dehydrator, and the abrupt presence of cold liquid (the Draught) in Dumbledore's body undid its effects, and caused the sudden awakening.

This seems a bit round-a-bout. Why wouldn't the Draught simply work on his already weakend body and cause him to fall unconsious more quickly? What is the point of dehyrdation-->reanimation-->coma-state? I know you're holding back, but could you explain further? And what is the point of the other sides effects (the hallucinations or memories--whatever horror Dumbly was experiencing)?

Great editorial. I read this idea (probabilly by the author) in CoS a while back and fully agreed with it then, as I do now. The editorial was well written and researched. It's also possable for Dumbledore's death to be real, after all Voldemort knew (I assume) nothing of Dumbledore and Harry's search for the locket Horcrux. Voldemort's intention in HBP was to get Draco (and he might have known about Snape's unbreakable vow) to kill Dumbledore.
The question of Dubledore's death really rests on where Snape's true loyalties lie, and that's anyones guess!

Voldemort's intention in HBP was to get Draco (and he might have known about Snape's unbreakable vow) to kill Dumbledore. The question of Dubledore's death really rests on where Snape's true loyalties lie, and that's anyones guess!

This is an important distinction, true, but I think there is a significant twist to the Vow that hasn't been revealed yet (and that I haven't really seen discussed on CoS, either). I think this twist will tie into the strange/suspicious conditions surrounding Dumbly's demise.

Great Essay! I have long been a thinker of the Dumbledore is alive theory. My main grievance with his death is that it was not clean and precise. JKR has always said when a character is properly dead there is no coming back. I wonder what "properly" dead is! Dead means DEAD to most. Similarly with Sirius's death - not clean enough to be believed.

I have waited and waited for the DoLD potion to be used as opposed just talked about in the series. What needs to be discussed further is what this now means.
Has Dumbledore used a loophole in the Unbreakable Vow (just as Aslan found one in Narnia)? Voldemort is lulled into a false sense of security and Harry finally has to accept his destiny ALONE without "the last and greatest of his protectors."
Trio are Horcrux hunting, little clues keep turning up - its either Dumbledore or Snape.
Finally when Harry is in the throws of winning the great war or after he has won it, Dumbledore show himself - he couldn't risk Harry being complacent in that Dumbledore was always going to be there. Harry wins the battle ALONE, just as Dumbledore always knew that Harry was the only one with "...the power to vanquish..." Voldemort. Great as a wizard Dumbledore is/was, destiny and fate require that Harry be LV's vanquisher. And Dumbledore had to put aside his love of Harry and make the decision to remove himself from the equation (temporarily) for the greater good. Wow.

Well, the editorial was well researched, well-written and you did a fairly good job of proving your point. I just believe that JK Rowling has bent over backward to prove to the readers that Dumbledore is dead. She had Snape use the Avada Kedavra spell, which no one has ever survived except for Haryy. She had a funeral. She had Dumbledore appear in the portrait in the Head Masters office. And then she told Melissa and Emerson that she had to kill him off because Harry had to go on alone. Dumbledore is dead.

But your other points were good.

Very interesting and well thought out editorial. I am anxious to revisit the cave and learn about that potion/water.
I, like so many others would love to believe Dumbledore is alive, but the evidence of his portrait appearing in the headmaster's office and the behavior of Fawks the Pheonix leads me to cling to the conclusion that he is indeed dead. This is a novel about growing up and being a human being. All of us must at some time accept the loss of loved ones. Some of us tragically learn sooner and more often than others.

Absolute Genius!! Bravo!! I also did not think of it as anything other than water, I gave negative feedback on one of the latest editorials posted and I was told repeatedly that now almost 1 year after the release of book 6 it is hard to write original stuff, you have just proven them wrong, I thank you.
Well done

nice

I loved the editorial, it got me excited about the books again. I mean I am completely obsessed but now I feel like I have learned a secret about them or something. Very well written! I dont want to say I believe he is alive now but I will say that you got me the closest to being unsure about it.

As much as it depresses me that Dumbledore is dead, he is dead. Death is such an important theme in the books. It's finality, it's effects...but that death does not mean separation. We have to go on living without them but that loved ones do not completely leave us, even in death, is also a strong theme. It is the fact that Dumbledore's death is so hard to accept that makes it impossible that JKR will decide to take it back and say, just kidding. Will we hear more from Dumbledore in some way? Yes, I believe so...proof that loved ones never truely leave us. Is Dumbledore permantently dead? I am without a doubt.

This was a fantastic editorial! I've always had suspisions about Dumbledore's death, and I had a feeling that he was still alive, but hadn't found the loophole yet, but I think you've got it. I gotta go check out the other thread on this.

This was a very well-written and well-researched editorial. It's weird that this editorial was just posted, because I just re-read chapter 26 "The Cave" for a paper for my world literature class, and I thought there was something odd about the water. I thought it was at least enchanted to maybe hide the boat and the Inferi. I never thought about it being a potion. But it does make sense. Because Dumbledore didn't REALLY start getting weak until after he'd drunk the water. But did he know about the water being a potion, if indeed, that's what it was? He told Harry several times not to touch the water, and we know why: it wakes up the Inferi. But could he have known that there was something else to the water?

Very good editorial, Erez. I think it has a lot of merit, especially knowing how Jo is about putting in clues WAY before the actual events take place.

Brilliant! I hadnt thought of that! what a cool idea, to have a lake full of potion! well written, very good
-Petey

Great editorial! Ever since I read HBP, filled with REPEATED references to "Dumbledore" and "sleep", I have refused to believe that dumbledore is dead. I also noted repeated references to the "Draght of Living Death" throughout the entire series. I can't remember which playwright said it, but the guote "..if you see a gun in the opening act of a play, it better be fired in the final act.." seems mighty appropriate in this situation. After so many references, beginning with PS, the Draght of Living Death MUST be a significant plot device. I think your editorial connected the dots, and it is the solution to Dumbledore's "death".

I thought it was also interesting that Dumbledore said to Draco, in the very scene of his demise, "...they cannot kill you if you are already dead." Could it be that the magical consequences of the Draght is that the Avada curse would not work, because he was already "dead"? Snape could have easily read dumbledore's thoughts on this matter and would have known about the loophole. This could also explain why dumbledore's wand was not found and broken. He will be needing it when he is awakened.

sorry if what i say has been covered by somone else here but i couldnt read all the comments...so sorry! :)

First of all, though i dont agree with the editorial, i respect you for taking such a close look into the details of the book and putting two and two together, it was really impressive

But I just want to say that why in the world and how in the world could Voldemort had the time to make and fill an entire lake that harry couldnt even see the ends of? that just seems impossible to me.

I am also a believer that Dumbledore is truly dead and JKR has made her point that harry is on his own now.

As for Voldemort not wanting to kill the person who got so far into his defenses i think the potion would have covered that

Once again i loved reading your work and appreciate your dedication and keen eye for detail love to hear more from u soon!

Wow! that article was amazing. I haven't read an editorial that good in a long while. it was very well thought out (although i do think you read a little too much into one or two quotes) and you presented an argument and idea that is very plausible. Very Interesting! can't wait to see how this turns out in the books

Bloody amazing. Bloody amazing is all I can say. You have me convinced. I've always thought there was something significantly wrong with the reader's picture of the cave, and this certainly explains it. Bravo. Dumbledore IS dead, but there is something more to that as well. Nice!

This may have been covered as i just glossed over the editorial and comments, but why would voldemort put a potion in the basin that makes you thirsty and then make you want water and then drink the 2nd potion in the lake.
Why not just put the 2nd potion itself in the basin with the same protections so that he must drink it. It is kindof like, "Why did Moody go through all that trouble to have Harry touch the trophy when he could've just done it anytime he wanted with a normal object".

Also, as incapacited as Dumbledore was after drinking the 1st potion, how was he supposed to get to the water and get a drink without help in the first place. And we already know voldemort only thought one person could get across the lake.

If these questions are answered then i'd more approve of the editioral as it was well written with lots of clues. Its just this logic part i'm hung up on? Was this already answered? thanks

Absolute Genius!! Bravo!! I also did not think of it as anything other than water, I gave negative feedback on one of the latest editorials posted and I was told repeatedly that now almost 1 year after the release of book 6 it is hard to write original stuff, you have just proven them wrong, I thank you.
Well done

First, a quick reply to saddrummer: What I think I actually said was that it was getting more and more difficult. Agreed that this editorial does prove it's not impossible to submit good writing on the most popular topics. But it wasn't the content of your feedback, it was the tone, I think, that caused the uproar.

About Cryoz's first page comments: the editorial was submitted six months ago. I wonder had the author read the editors' recent submission notes (which may have discouraged some from writing about certain topics because they have been "done to death,") if he/she would have submitted the article now. I think there should always be room for speculation about these topics, and for a couple of reasons. One, really good editorials, like this one, can always find a new angle. Two, we are on the last book, folks. Although there will always be things open to interpretation after the release of book 7, this is the LAST chance we have to wonder what happens next. So yes, only post the good editorials, but even if it is yet another "Dumbledore=dead or alive" editorial, we'd like to see it because soon all will be revealed.

To the author: great job. I had never gone back to compare the potion descriptions, but I have been curious about that water for a long time, although my curiousity had more to do with what it did for the Inferi rather than to Dumbledore. It reminded me of the solutions in Snape's jars full of pickled critters. Ew.

I looooove this theory. It's so Jo-ish to do something like that. It makes perfect sense. Well spotted! Two butter beer cork necklaces for you!

Okay, I really believe Dumbledore, but given the fact that this editorial presented great info on the draught of the living dead in the cave, it could be possible that he is not dead. Snape, being a potions expert, would certainly have recognized the effects of the potion, knowing full well dumbledore was quickly falling asleep. We are also given in the books that snape is a master of silent spells. This info is important because it brings to light the popssibility that Snape could have Said avada kedavra while actually performing a different spell in his head. This also accounts for the fact that in other instances of the avada kedvra spell we have seen performed the victim does'n move much while in this instance Dumbledore flew out the window. Could it be possible snape actually performed a propulsion charm (the opposite of a summoning charm) and that dumbledore looked dead because he had fallen asleep?

The idea is neat, but I wonder... that was a lake... is it possible to "Engorgio" potions?

This would be a plausible idea, except that Inferi aren't the "living dead" in the sense that The Draught of Living Death refers to. Inferi are corpses, already dead, which have been brought back to "life" by a witch or wizard for some dark purpose. The Draught, on the other hand, would send you into a sort of coma or something, making you appear to be dead while still being alive--like Juliet, for example, in Romeo and Juliet.

My personal opinion, which may or may not be right, is that the drinker of the potion, craving water, would be forced to drink from the lake, which would wake the Inferi who would then...erm...do what zombies do. Voldemort never intended to let someone escape, he wanted them to be turned into Inferi by the other Inferi...assuming that Inferi are like zombies in other books, and their bite turns the victim into another one like them.

I don't know if anyone else thought of this, but I sort of wondered when I re-read HBP if R.A.B. might have become one of the Inferi after replacing the locket. In that case, the locket at Grimmauld Place could just be a red herring, and R.A.B. might or might not be Regulus.

what's to keep the inferi from ripping up the victim after he falls asleep?

That was a good editorial. I like the theory, I believe that could've happened. Good idea, I never thought about the water being like that.

I just realized that Harry did use a replenishing spell with wine. But can it be done with anything? i.e. Felix Felicis, the Draught, etc.?

This would be a plausible idea, except that Inferi aren't the "living dead" in the sense that The Draught of Living Death refers to. Inferi are corpses, already dead, which have been brought back to "life" by a witch or wizard for some dark purpose. The Draught, on the other hand, would send you into a sort of coma or something, making you appear to be dead while still being alive--like Juliet, for example, in Romeo and Juliet.

My personal opinion, which may or may not be right, is that the drinker of the potion, craving water, would be forced to drink from the lake, which would wake the Inferi who would then...erm...do what zombies do. Voldemort never intended to let someone escape, he wanted them to be turned into Inferi by the other Inferi...assuming that Inferi are like zombies in other books, and their bite turns the victim into another one like them.

I don't know if anyone else thought of this, but I sort of wondered when I re-read HBP if R.A.B. might have become one of the Inferi after replacing the locket. In that case, the locket at Grimmauld Place could just be a red herring, and R.A.B. might or might not be Regulus.

I do not think the author meant you to believe that the Inferi had drank the water-like potion, just Dumbledore. The inferi were merely supended in it, waiting for its surface to be disturbed.

Are you thinking of the The Potion Dumbledore Drank: Clearly Not Green (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=79218)? The person who started that thread is the same one who wrote this editorial, although it is confusing as they are under different names. According to Cryoz's first post on this thread, the editorial was submitted six months ago so for those who frequent the COS forums, the idea is not new because the author wisely started his/her own thread on the theory.
ok sorry, yeah i meant that thread :)

then i just can say good work dude, i really like this theory and i am convinced that it's true

this is very well written, and i loves it sooo much.
i totally agree with you about it, it's deffinatly the draught of living death.
we'll just have to wait for the seventh one and see what will happen...

thanx for writing this ... it's sooo great
keep up the good work :D from Luna

Interesting idea. Could we follow this out to the possibility that the Horcrux is still in the cave? I always found it interesting that a body jumped when Harry "accio"ed the Horcrux. Do you suppose it's still there with the person that took it, drank the Draught of Living Death and is sleeping in the water in the cave?

Brilliant Editorial. I've been sure Dumbledore's dead - but the peices do fit together abnormally well. It would be exactly like JKR to put in those three main clues in Harry's First Potion's Class, In the part where the two important ingredients are mentioned and the description of the lake. Well done for noticing and pulling the parts together.
Excellent editorial. yet, have you considered that Snape may have done Dumbledore a favor by killing him? I am sure Dumbledore is dead. If Dumbledore did drink the Draught of living death, as it appears, then he probably would have ended up worse than dead. Snape may have recognized the effects of the potion, and killed him realizing that he could keep his cover by basically mercy killing.
And yeah, this makes good sense too.
...hmm. If you put it together it doesn't make too much difference anyway - but this could open some windows for cool stuff in Book 7.

Extremely well thought-out article...

My only questions return to this: why are we all so sure that Voldemort placed the glowing green potion? To my mind, it makes much more sense for RAB to have filled the basin. S/He filled it with a potion that makes you feel extreme remorse, and probably physical discomfort - and a compulsion to drink more when given to you... just in the end to be unbelievably thirsty, making so that you are eaten/murdered by zombies in the end. Sounds like a poetic death for a horrible man.

Yea I'd like to second the above sentiments. I really can't see a 'Dumbledores not really dead' thing happening. Gandalf is the one and only wizard who can pull off ressurection! I think Snape actually killed Dumbledore, but, as is said above, out of mercy rather than hatred. Nice spotting of the Snape's description in the first book btw!!

The glowing green potion in the basin isn't a problem for me - regarding Regulus. I can easily imagine that it replenishes itself after a period of time...say an intruder was able to only drink a few goblets before passing out or giving up. In which case the basin would after a time refill itself.

Or another theory I've read supposes that the dark mark could cross the invisible barrier. http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-katiem01.shtml

One more thing - some folks had been critical of the notion that none of the other professors would not have noticed that Dumbledore was under the influence of the Draught of the Living Death. I think there are two things that counter those arguments.
One is that they have all been told that Snape Avada Kedavra'd Dumbledore and there he is lying on the ground looking dead. Why would they question it?
Secondly consider the case of Mrs. Norris in CoS. They didn't know what "killed" her. Nor did her "death" have an explanation so Dumbledore did quite a lot of poking a prodding before he pronounced her petrified and not dead.

Which by the way gives us conon (flimsy as it might be) of someone appearing dead but is not. AKA not properly dead.

That was a brilliant piece of sleuthing. I love your editorial. Perhaps Snape recognized the symptomos and perhaps you cannot kill a person who is already under the Sleeping Death. Is there a remedy to that potion? if not, it would explain why Snape did not hesitate to kill Dumbledore--he would never have awakened anyway. (I still believe Snape made the potions in the cave).
Either way, you've given us a lot to think about!

hmmm, it would take an awful lot of asphodel and wormwood to make a lake full of potion. I agree that we have not seen the last of the draught of living death, but I'm not sure I agree with the theory that the lake was made of it. I also believe that Dumbledore is gone for good, why else woul dhis potrait appear if he was not dead?

well that is the kind of idea i LIKE- fabulously spotted. very clever as well- i can just see that kind of plot weaving its way in to JKR- and it makes sense!
that said though, i wonder if you're spotting things that aren't there. after all 'clear as water' is a common simile, its not as if its an obscure term to use, neither are any of the references to sleeping- common euphemisms. even so, its a plausible theory, although like you i'm not sure where it could lead plotwise. added to it is this- a draught is normally a specific type of drink, and it fits with my perception of that word that as well as inducing 'living death' it could KEEP people in that 'living death'- hence the inferi live 'in' the Draught of Living Death to keep them in that state. but again, thats not backed up by proof from the books so i'll have to research inferi. could dumbledore become one through drinking the Draught- again i need to do some 'revision'- my gut instinct says no, thats not what inferi are! and i know the draught-induced state and the inferi are very different, but i wonder if there's a parallel. dearie, i need to reread!

Very interesting. This puts a whole new spin on HBP. I would've never thought this before now.

I so love this editorial! It speaks the truth!

Well I think it's more of the fact that J.K. had us concentrated on drinks the whole of the book if you really look at it...I mean it has all kinds of potions and everything...maybe J.K. wanted us to keep an eye on the lake...Great editorial though...I loved it...

Great editorial! I was just rereading PS and noticed that there was some relevance to the potions/antidotes that snape mentions here-but wasn't really sure where that one fit it-but your suggestion is fantastic! good sleuthing!

Very well thought out editorial. I don't believe though that a whole lake could be made from a potion. Besides, wouldn't Dumbledore have known if it was water or the Draught of Living Death? I mean, he even found an invisible rope and the entrance to the cave through the wall. I think he can tell the difference between a potion and water.

Very convincing and concise editorial!! I'd never thought of the lake being anything but water, but after the evidence you found from the books (especially Snape's lesson in SS), I can't help but agree.

I'm also hesitant to say Dumbledore is alive based on this info (as much as I'd like to believe that he is). I've read several times that Snape is a powerful wizard and could therefore fake Avada Kedavra so that DD really is asleep. If this is true, it means that Snape not only knows about DD and Harry's trip to the cave but also the potion and the lake of Inferi. How else would Snape know to fake the Avada Kedavra in correlation with the deep sleep that DD is about to fall in? Likewise, if he didn't really kill DD (and therefore help Draco complete his task), he himself would be dead, which he clearly is not.

Anyway, I apologize for the Snape tangent!! I just mention it to show that just because we have this new insight on the lake, it doesn't mean we can start speculating that DD is alive. Good job to the author for not jumping to conclusions but rather writing a really great, focused editorial!

Very well thought out editorial. I don't believe though that a whole lake could be made from a potion. Besides, wouldn't Dumbledore have known if it was water or the Draught of Living Death? I mean, he even found an invisible rope and the entrance to the cave through the wall. I think he can tell the difference between a potion and water.

does dumbledore ever say it IS water? when he asks for water he isn't in a fit state, and he doesn't say 'harry can you get me some water out of that lake, check it isn't some potion first though'.
although, i've just thought, wouldn't the Draught have immediate effect ather than taking as long as it takes to go out of the cave, back to Hogwarts, and fly? seems a little over the top. i still maintain this is as plausible a theory as any as to where the Draught will come into play (which it must) though.
one more thing- i apologise for saying earlier dumbledore might become and inferi, i think in the light of morning it seems on a par with Sirius becoming a dementor for unlikely and pointless outcomes. probably more so, as i liked the sirius-dementor theory!

So well written! I'm so glad someone covered this. I had suspicions about the water being something other than water, or rather just having a strange property. Yet I had no idea what. Thanks for clearing it up. I believe you hit the nail on the head here with this one.

It brings up questions about DD. I was so sure he was dead. Thinking, of Jo won't bring him back, theres no way. And while I still want to believe that, I think now there actually is a possiblity he might come back. However, I think that if he does, it will be at the very end of the book, after Harry has already defeated LV.

At any rate you have convinced me that the lake with inferi is indeed draught of the living death.

Snape didn't know about Voldy's horcruxes....so I'm pretty sure he didn't know about the cave or what it contained. So basically....he had no clue why DD was so weak. and he had no time to find out either. If this theory is true... then that would mean that the potion (---the draught of living death) just helped the story to continue as it did. It weakened DD enough to make him vulnerable. So he lost his wand....couldn't fight the DE's back...etc....but that doesn't mean the AVADA KEDAVRA wasn't real. It was. If Snape hadn't used the AK curse...the chances are DD just would've fallen into a coma like state from the draught. AND THEN we could all say he might be alive! BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN....he was A.K.'d -----and even if Snape tried some no-verbal spell---it wouldn't have mattered.....he said avada kedavra out loud---the incantation...w/ his wand pointed at DD....so what would he have used non-verbally to help anything??? a spell that serves as a cancelation to that curse?? Avada kedavra cannot be repelled, so i highly doubt it can be canceled out with a non-verbal spell.

a spell that serves as a cancelation to that curse?? Avada kedavra cannot be repelled, so i highly doubt it can be canceled out with a non-verbal spell.

actually yes, the Avada Kedavra curse can be repelled - re-read the duel in OotP between Dumbledore and Voldemort. Dumbledore repells it several times.

And I don't think the suggestion is that Snape is cancelling the Avada Kedavra, but merly did not give it enough power to work (sort of like making a show of trying to turn on a lamp that's unplugged) and then quickly doing a nonverbal that "blasts" Dumbledore off the tower to complete the illusion.

I haven't read any of the replies to this, so forgive any redundancy.

JKR is indeed a literary genius, but that means that not only is she able to conceal secrets with words, she's able to set a mood very well. The descriptions of the lake are nothing more than the use of a great literary device to set the dramatic, scary mood of that cave. It wasn't a potion. That lake was huge, who's going to brew that much of such a difficult potion to make? Not to mention that if the person did indeed fall asleep, he or she might still roll over into the water and become one of those zombies too, rendering him or her useless to Voldy. No, that's just too complicated and has too many holes in it, and its reaching a bit too far.

Dumbledore is dead. JKR hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise, in the books or in any interviews. He's gone.

When I first read this editorial I was really excited, because it seemed to totally explain the whole snape-is-good/dumbledore's-not-dead theory, but then when i went to look up more info on the Draught of Living Death, I noticed that actually the finished potion is not "clear as water" but "a light shade of lilac" (HBP, ch. 9). Much as I would love to believe that this theory is the answer to all our questions about the end of HBP, i don't really see Harry and Dumbledore not noticing lilac-colored water.

No, that's just too complicated and has too many holes in it, and its reaching a bit too far.

Dumbledore is dead. JKR hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise, in the books or in any interviews. He's gone.


Too complicated? Ron's rat being a presumed-dead-thought-a-friend-disloyal-evil-wizard? The year long kidnapping plan of Goblet of Fire? I think JKR is well up to the task of complicated.

And as to whether Dumbledore is really dead or not JKR certainly worded that scene in such a way as to be begging us to speculate. To name a few curious details - offering to fake Malfoy's death, blasting into the air, falling slowly, eyes closed, trickle of blood.



but then when i went to look up more info on the Draught of Living Death, I noticed that actually the finished potion is not "clear as water" but "a light shade of lilac" (HBP, ch. 9). Much as I would love to believe that this theory is the answer to all our questions about the end of HBP, i don't really see Harry and Dumbledore not noticing lilac-colored water.

check again - "a light shade of lilac" was the color at a particular stage but further down the page it says "he had to stir counterclockwise until the potion turned clear as water"

Too complicated? Ron's rat being a presumed-dead-thought-a-friend-disloyal-evil-wizard? The year long kidnapping plan of Goblet of Fire? I think JKR is well up to the task of complicated

Never said she wasn't. But that's not complicated, its ridiculous. Each of the plots you've described were incorporated into an entire book, a lake full of potion is in one scene that I doubt we'll see again. We haven't got time in book 7 to speculate about whether or not DD is dead. Harry still has the horcruxes to find and destroy, then taking out voldy and his followers on top of whatever emotional journey he's going to go through. Plus unraveling Snape's loyalties and learning about the Potters before their death. If JK was going to put something as complicated as DD faking his death the book might never end.

~Lili

Very well written editorial. I must say that i haven't enjoyed an editorial as much as this one in a long time. I thank you for giving me a HP high again.

I only skimmed a few replys, so i appologize if i repeat anything already said.

1. It was great reading something so original, but i can't see how the entire lake was a potion. IT would take forever to create enough Draught of the Living Dead to fill that lake. The only plausable thing that i could think of is that if it only took a little bit of potion to contaiminate the entire lake, such as how toxic waste could contaminate an entire pond. That makes more sense.
After all, whenever we see someone in the HP universe get ride of a potion, they vanish it, not poor it down the drain. So perhaps this means that potions do contaminate.

2. Dumbledore was killed with the Avada Kedavera curse. The potion wouldn't have protected Dubledore from that curse, in fact, it probably aided in weakening Dumbledore. Thus it makes little sense to believe that he is alive. I distinctivly remember JO saying on her web site when someone asked, "Are you going to kill off more main characters?" She simply replyed, "Yes. Sorry." It is necessary that Dumbledore died, so that Harry will have more adversity to overcome. And who is to say we won't see Dumbledore pull an Obi Wan Kenobi and return to give Harry advice. Perhaps through his portrait in the Headmaster's Office.

Thank you, Sara, for finally posting this editorial. It's a shame, though, that we now have to hunt through 3 threads about it to know what's already been discussed. The original 40 page thread (v1) is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=79218), the second forum thread (v2) is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=87532), and of course, you're reading this in the editorial thread.

Cryoz, I hadn't read your brilliant theory until it was finally posted as an editorial -- frankly because, even when I run across an interesting-looking thread on the forum, if it's already garnered hundreds of comments, I'm sometimes a bit daunted by the prospect of spending hours - or days - reading everything that's already been said about it. Correcting this oversight, I'm now about halfway through reading your original thread.

Although many people commented on the whole RAB-in-the-cave debate, no one mentioned another possibility with regard to the current location of the locket horcrux - a possibility which I think fits in well with your theory. What if, in the process of looking for the locket horcrux at other locations, Dumbledore ran across - and casually pocketed - the fake locket that contained the note from RAB. Then, in the cave with Harry, he more-firmly secured the real locket horcrux in a different pocket. When he fell from the tower, it was the casually pocketed fake locket that fell out. That would mean that RAB was never in the cave, the real locket horcrux was in the cave, and now, it's still in Dumbledore's other pocket.

Yes, I realize there's very little in the way of direct canon support for my two-pocket theory, but wouldn't it be exactly like JKR to leave that locket exactly where it's supposed to be, while throwing her readers off with red herrings? If your theory about the Draught of Living Death is correct, there could well be a demand for this or something similar plot-wise. You've said that you think Dumbledore will be awakened before the end of book 7, but if that turns out not to be the case, there will need to be a really good reason to open Dumbledore's tomb, so someone can notice that's he's asleep rather than dead. I suspect it's going to prove impossible to locate one of horcruxes before the final battle, which will mean that Voldy hasn't been fully vanquished, and will eventually be able to reappear unless the Trio manages to find and destroy the last horcrux. And one of the last places they'd think to look is in Dumbledore's tomb.

On the other hand, there's a lot we don't know about the Draught of Living Death. If it turns out that's it's the potion one uses to create an inferi, Dumbledore could well have been begging Snape to kill him rather than allow him to suffer being turned into an inferi as his ultimate fate. I wonder what happens to the soul of an inferi? Do you think it leaves the body and passes through the veil? Or is it forever stuck in the body as a silent witness to acts it has no control over?

Great editorial---great sleuthing! I wondered about the "water" in the lake. It seemed strange. I also wondered about DD's death and the strange thing that happened when he was blasted by Snape's AV curse. No one else was lifted up and blasted away that was hit by the AV curse. The others just dropped dead where they stood.

I was totally convinced that Dumbledore was dead. Now I have to reconsider this. If someone is under the Living death potion, how can they come out of it? I now have a good reason to re-read the book. Thanks!

Really good job!

Love the editorial, sorry I haven't read all the post but I'm in work... hehehe.. if they only knew!
I like everyone else am very confused about Dumbledores death or lack there of! But I'd did note on the POA DVD extras in the interview with JKR and Alfonso Cuaron that Alfonso mentions wanting to put the graveyard of hogwarts in a particular scene but says that JKR said that the Graveyard will be important later, I find it hard to believe it was only the burial of Dumbledore to which she could of been referring. Perhaps there is more to come about that Graveyard and perhaps Dumbledore, it is very suspicious that only now the Graveyard has come into play. Any thoughts?

I really enjoyed this editorial and the idea that the water in the cave was actually a sleeping potion so to speak is quite believable. What really struck me was that perhaps Dumbledore is not dead after all.
If he had drunk enough of tyhis potion to send him into a deep sleep, perhaps Snape did not kill him. The reason I say this is because I thought of something that happened towards the end of OOTP.
"'Crucio!' (Harry bellowed), Bellatrix screamed: the spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe and shriek with pain as Neville had - she was already back on her feet, breathless, no longer laughing.....'Never used an Unforgiveable Curse before, have you, boy?' she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain - to enjoy it - righteous anger won't hurt me for long - I'll show you how it is done shall I? I'll give you a lesson -'"" (OOTP UK Version pg. 890/891).
What struck me was the bit that said you 'have to mean it', so if Snape didn't really mean it and Dumbledore was suitably sleepy from the potion, does this mean that perhaps he is not dead and it is all part of the plan?
Something to think about anyway!

I thought your editorial patched up a lot of holes that remained in the "Dumbledore-not-dead" line of theories. I'd just like to thank you and call your attention to an editorial I wrote about six months ago proposing that Dumbledore might not be dead titled "Who's Buried in the White Tomb (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-amandata01.shtml)" (Now residing in the mugglenet editorial archives. In it, I give a fairly convincing account of how the Avada Kedavra curse might not have killed Dumbledore and a variety of other things. Your theory regarding the draught of living death fits in perfectly, good work.

This editorial was amazing. I am a firm Wisher that Dumbledore is alive and this theory makes perfect sense. I do have to say that I think Dumbledore was very aware of what he was drinking. Every move Dumbledore made in those last few chapters felt VERY calculated. I also love that this editorial addressed the redundancy of the plot line in the book. This redundancy is solidified by Dumbledore's death, because it is so meaningless and makes his calculated efforts feel thoughtless. I also think that the Avada Kadavra spell can be expained away but another editorial's idea about the spell actually being an unspoken expellarmus spell. I will keep wishing.

My hat is off to this editorial, I never would have peaced all that information together but it is dead on.

Agentkaj

Amazing. This is by far the best proof I have read that Dumbledore is not dead. This almost shakens my resolve. Almost.

That was a good editorial. It got me thinking, and most of what follows is pure conjecture, but I thought it was along these lines. In HBP, the Prince's old textbook describes how to make the draught of living death (DLD) potion in a way that is much more effective than the standard published method. If one of LV’s protections for this horcrux was a lake full of DLD, it would make sense that Snape would have had a hand in making the potion. In PS, when we are introduced to this potion, Snape is almost boastful about its effects. Making a lake full of such a powerful potion is certainly impressive and Snape would understandably be rather proud of such a feat.

I also think Snape at some point or another passed along to DD that he had made an extraordinary amount of DLD. However, LV probably never told Snape what the potion was going to be used for. It is likely that once DD entered the cave, he suspected the lake was full of DLD, which lead to his comment to Harry that LV “would not want immediately to kill the person who reached this island," but “keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far”.

Even though DD was aware the lake was full of DLD, the greenish potion did more than just make him thirsty. Any potion that could cause DD to have such dramatic hallucinations would likely have caused him to forget all about the dangers of the lake “water”.

After they left the cave and the effects of the greenish potion wore off, all DD wanted was Snape. I think this is not just because of Snape’s general reputation with Potions, but because DD knew of Snape’s involvement with this particular potion. If things had played out differently on the tower, Snape may have been able to reverse the effects of the potion and save DD.

But touching the "water" attracts the inferi, doesn't it? And the inferi have one purpose in life: to kill all it comes across.

I liked ur editorial but if u keep reading now i will give u more info. the usa HBp here it is According to the princes book it says he ought to add a clockwise stir after every seven thcounterclockwise stir could the old owner be right twice. Harry stirred counterclockwise the potion the way harry did it it didnt turn to clear water it turned into the palest pink so i dont think voldy would follow the book he gets hes probably like snape inventing thing just like the potion Draught of living death so if u think that lake was made by voldy he would due his own way of doing it unless he knew who ever went there they would notice pink water maybe not it was dark i just dont see voldy using the text book for draught of living death to get a clear water i think he would have his own way he would use his old books with all his brain power im sure he has his own book with stuff probably like snapes thats why i think Dumbeldore is dead

It's an interesting, original and plausible theory and certainly beats the incessant and thoroughly annoying banter of "Who is RAB?", but has it escaped your notice that its a lake?! Where in the magical world could anyone get enough wormwood and asphodel to create a lakeful of potion? Even if Snape was involved.:eyebrows:


(RAB will turn out to be completely irrelevant)

Very well written and researched - very thorough and great to read. There is one thing, however, that convinces me DD is in fact dead: the portrait in his office. I think that if DD was either asleep (as you propose may be possible) or, as others have said, not even in his tomb, but somewhere alive and well - then there would be no portrait. I think those portraits appear when, and ONLY when, the Headmaster or mistress has died.
That said - I still enjoyed your editorial - excellent pick up on the water thing!
Janie

Excellent piece!!
I had previously felt that Dumbledore could still be alive...I am more inclined now that ever to believe it is possible...

:tu: :tu: Well spotted. It would help put another peice to how Dumbledore is alive. What about his body?

One of the most important things Dumbledore said was at the begining of SS.
" I would trust Hagrid with my life." I think he did just that. I'll let you chew on that one.:p

I also noticed the strange movements of the water...but I thought Draught of the Living Dead turned lilac?

Belle i agree with u totally, u need to keep reading that page and it turns into a pale pink or lilac

In your editorial, you mention the Draught of Living Death.....( asphodel and wormwood)....is this the potion that Snape refers to in his opening speech to Harry's first Potions class?...." I can teach you how to bottle fame. brew glory, even stopper death".......and while we are talking about Snape and potions, let's not forget, Snape made Lupin's potion, and Lupin drank it, and suffered no ill effects....Dumbledore asked him to make it for Lupin.....there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we do not know about.....could this be part of the conversations between Dumbledore and Snape that we never quite get the whole picture of?.....could Snape have been brewing a potion for Dumbledore to prevent his death?....could Dumbledore really just be asleep?

lilac and pale pink are colors at particular stages, the final product is supossed to be clear as water

Amazing theory!

Also, to enforce your view, Dumbledore's portrait in the headmasters office was Sleeping. Another subtle hint perhaps?


I am hoping Snape, through legilimency, found out what happened to Dumbledore and will be able to revive him in the next book. All the better that everyone thinks Dumbledore is dead, he can help Harry better than ever if that were the case.

ah more thoughts.

Dumbledore is DEAD. we want him to be alive too much for him to come back...if that makes sense...i don't think its feasible. i could be proved wrong, but i'm not going to spend any more time debating it, i've decided. just one thing- if avada kedavra wasn't proper avada kedavra (snape didn't mean it etc) we wouldn't see the green light, would we? HOWEVER this editorial is valuable above and beyond the is-dumbledore-alive theory.

quoting 'zanaboo': Although many people commented on the whole RAB-in-the-cave debate, no one mentioned another possibility with regard to the current location of the locket horcrux - a possibility which I think fits in well with your theory. What if, in the process of looking for the locket horcrux at other locations, Dumbledore ran across - and casually pocketed - the fake locket that contained the note from RAB. Then, in the cave with Harry, he more-firmly secured the real locket horcrux in a different pocket. When he fell from the tower, it was the casually pocketed fake locket that fell out. That would mean that RAB was never in the cave, the real locket horcrux was in the cave, and now, it's still in Dumbledore's other pocket. fantastic idea- not so fantastic development of the idea! the two lockets idea is a good one, but i think there might be a more complex explanation than two pockets. although in refernce to Merlin81's post, this pocket searching would tie in well with a vision of the Hogwarts graveyard, so maybe it is legitimate.

quoting zanaboo again: On the other hand, there's a lot we don't know about the Draught of Living Death. If it turns out that's it's the potion one uses to create an inferi, Dumbledore could well have been begging Snape to kill him rather than allow him to suffer being turned into an inferi as his ultimate fate. interesting explanation for dumblodore's begging, particularly if we think Snape was 'in on it all'. however, quoting 'diamondgold33'; But touching the "water" attracts the inferi, doesn't it? And the inferi have one purpose in life: to kill all it comes across. when are we told this?

I think there is a reason Dumbledore drank that potion, even though he died. I think that perhaps R.A.B. is lying at the bottom of that lake! It does not matter that Dumbledore died so much as it matters that he showed us the effects of the "water" in the lake.

Maybe, R.A.B is in a deep sleep at the bottum of the lake. We saw in GoF that it could be done, maybe the same potion was used then.

Even though I think Dumbledore is dead, I think it's important to see how complex Voldemort's plan was with the multiple potions (which I never would have picked up on....well done) Once Harry figures it all out he'll be more ready for everything

Excellent editorial. yet, have you considered that Snape may have done Dumbledore a favor by killing him? I am sure Dumbledore is dead. If Dumbledore did drink the Draught of living death, as it appears, then he probably would have ended up worse than dead. Snape may have recognized the effects of the potion, and killed him realizing that he could keep his cover by basically mercy killing.

I seriously doubt that Dumbledore would approve of mercy killing. It's a selfish act to decide when you want to die, when there may still be a chance to live. We don't know that there is NO anitdote to the potion. It's ridiculous and even offensive to Dumbledore's memory to think that he would tell Snape to kill him just because he was tired of living. That kind of defeatist attitude is nothing like him, and unless he'd gone insane, I can see no way for that to be true about him. I wish more people would realize that, because it's not helping anything for this theory to be said over and over when I really don't think there is a possible way for it to be true. Sorry if you don't think that way, and if you have any convincing proof that it could be true, please let me know. But if it goes against Dumbledore's Gryffindor character, it simply can't be true.

that was great! I've never thought of that!

HBPrincesscaz-on the Avada Kedavra:

The AK is associated with the green light, but it is not unique in this. Levicorpus also presents a green light. As I would expect this is the most likely alternative to the AK in this case, it bears notice. Further, we don't know that there are not other spells which produce a green light, nor that there are not ways to make spells take the color of thier caster's choice. Given the vast number of spells, the idea that one should have a unique color seems remote.

The AK is also often associated with a rushing noise. This is the case in the closest to a textbook example we get of the curse, Prof. Moody/Crouch Jr.'s demonstration in DADA. But we also see it without reference to the noise.

Much of the magic we learn in the course of the series gets a classroom treatment, and a demonstration by Hermione, usually with additional relevant details. For such an important spell, the AK is rather unusual in its details having not been particularly "spelled" out. I think this is because JKR is trading on this vagueness, just as she is with the Unbreakable Vow. (What other spells get there "definitive" explanation from Ron?)

Whether or not Dumbledore is dead, little is proved by the green light on the tower.

Much of the magic we learn in the course of the series gets a classroom treatment, and a demonstration by Hermione, usually with additional relevant details. For such an important spell, the Avada Kedavra is rather unusual in its details having not been particularly "spelled" out. I think this is because JKR is trading on this vagueness, just as she is with the Unbreakable Vow. (What other spells get there "definitive" explanation from Ron?)
Whether or not Dumbledore is dead, little is proved by the green light on the tower.


Good point about Ron and the vagueness of the Unbreakable Vow.

Since the notion that you would die if you break the unbreakable vow comes from Ron - who is less than reliable. Consider in PoA when Harry thought he saw a "grim" Ron assured him he would die if he saw a grim and told the story of an uncle (or something) who supposedly died of it. Ron has often sounded the alarm bell - giants, werewolves and such.

Could underage wizards really envoke a deadly magical contract? Ron says he was about 5, that would make Fred and George about 7. (As a side note - Fred and George also told Ron he would have to wrestle a troll at the sorting ceramony.)

So I really look at Ron's dire revelation with a grain of salt.

Also since Malfoy twice attempted and twice failed to kill Dumbledore via the necklace and the oak-matured mead why didn't Snape die then for not stepping in and killing Dumbledore? I'm sure he had ample oppertunity.

There is clearly much we don't know about the subtle nuances of the Unbreakable Vow.

Hey the editorial was cool, rrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllyyyyyyy yyy cool............:clap:

You really have wrked out a cool thing.

But u said how could have Dumbledore survived Snape's killer curse.....I hv something which is worth adding here....

When Snape shoots the killer curse at Dumbledore a strange thing happens.....
In the earlier parts of HP it can be seen that when killer curse is shooted at someone, the guy falls and dies at the place itself....
He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumbled. He was dead before he hit the floor.(GoF)

From high above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to ground beside him. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead. (GoF)
But in Dumbledore's case......something different happens....

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!" A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silently he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.

huh huh......
What do you think?.....Do curses work differently on different people ???

Think about it

What if Snape was fooling Voldermort? Maybe, he didn't mean to kill Dumbledore.

Maybe he was just fooling the world to fool Dark Lord and Dumbledore and Snape had made this plan.

and the final and most important "maybe"_
Maybe Dumbledore is not dead.


(qoutes: courtesy, www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com)

But in Dumbledore's case......something different happens....

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. "Avada Kedavra!" A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silently he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he slowly fell backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.

huh huh......
What do you think?.....Do curses work differently on different people ???

Think about it


(qoutes: courtesy, www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com)When a person is hit by the AK spell, he drops dead. The fact that Dumbledore flew off the top of the tower makes the typical AK effect a little different. My opinion is that JK Rowling wrote a more dramatic death in order to convey the strength of Snape's emotion when he cast the spell. I don't have the book with me, so can't describe the exact emotion that Snape showed when he cast the spell, but it was very strong. When Wormtail killed Cedric, he did not show that level of emotion, so that may be why Cedric just fell down. The same with Frank Bryce. Both were just pesky nuisances, needing a minimum of effort to kill. Snape cast a spell that had so much more force behind it, that Dumbledore was knocked over.

As you had raised the question....How did Dumbledore manage to protect himself from Snape's killer curse?

Hatred rose in Harry such that he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed "Crucio!" Bellatrix screamed. The spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe or shriek with pain as Neville had -- she was already on her feet again ... "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it ..."

What if Snape was fooling Voldermort? Maybe, he didn't mean to kill Dumbledore.

Maybe he was just fooling the world to fool Dark Lord and Dumbledore and Snape had made this plan.

and the final and most important "maybe"_
Maybe Dumbledore is not dead.

When a person is hit by the Avada Kedavra spell, he drops dead. The fact that Dumbledore flew off the top of the tower makes the typical Avada Kedavra effect a little different. My opinion is that JK Rowling wrote a more dramatic death in order to convey the strength of Snape's emotion when he cast the spell. I don't have the book with me, so can't describe the exact emotion that Snape showed when he cast the spell, but it was very strong. When Wormtail killed Cedric, he did not show that level of emotion, so that may be why Cedric just fell down. The same with Frank Bryce. Both were just pesky nuisances, needing a minimum of effort to kill. Snape cast a spell that had so much more force behind it, that Dumbledore was knocked over.

Harry and company was tought in the fourth year that Avada Kedavra spell causes instant death. As far as i think, the spells won't have more impact just for the mere reason that the person has more hatred and more emotins.

When a person is hit by the Avada Kedavra spell, he drops dead. The fact that Dumbledore flew off the top of the tower makes the typical Avada Kedavra effect a little different. My opinion is that JK Rowling wrote a more dramatic death in order to convey the strength of Snape's emotion when he cast the spell. I don't have the book with me, so can't describe the exact emotion that Snape showed when he cast the spell, but it was very strong. When Wormtail killed Cedric, he did not show that level of emotion, so that may be why Cedric just fell down. The same with Frank Bryce. Both were just pesky nuisances, needing a minimum of effort to kill. Snape cast a spell that had so much more force behind it, that Dumbledore was knocked over. I really like this statement and I agree with it. When I first read the passage, I sensed that Dumbledore being blasted up into the air was a sign of Snape's force (whether force of hatred or sheer magic power; I think both).

I like your theory. The draght of Living Death really seems to make sense. However, i'm sorry, but i don't believe Dumbledore is alive. JK has always said that once somebody dies in the wizarding world they really are dead and she doesn't strike me as a hypocrite. One other thing i noticed while i was reading your editorial that i think backs up your theory - when Harry meets McGonagal in the Headmasters Office the portrait of Dumbledore is sleeping. coincidence? i don't think so anymore...
awesome editorial though. Fantastic.

JK has always said that once somebody dies in the wizarding world they really are dead and she doesn't strike me as a hypocrite.

She has said once they are properly dead, they are dead. But we have a reoccurring theme that also pops up.


Voldemort himself did not die when hit by the rebound of the Avada Kedavra. Many in the wizarding world believed/hoped He-who-must-not-be-named was dead and gone.

Peter 'Wormtail' Pettigrew faked his death.

The whole Crouch family faked Jr.s death and mislead the wizarding world regarding the where and how of the wife's death.

Slughorn was trying to fake his death when Harry and Dumbledore came calling.

Dumbledore offers to fake Malfoys death.

So while people don't come back once they are properly dead, they sure don't have a problem faking they're dead.

Very well thought out and written. I have to agree though that if the water in the cave is in deed the Draught of Living Death it doesn't mean that Dumbledore is not dead. It after all did not put him to sleep. Dumbledore may have known what the water was but did not show that he knew to Harry he just faught the affects of it.

:tu: :tu:

This is a fabulous editorial and it makes perfect sense. I thought I had sharp senses when it came to reading HP, but this is unbelievable! Good work, and write your own fantasy series! I'll be the first to read it! :clap:

I registered at Cos forums for the sole purpose of commenting on brilliant editorials...
And this one was truly brilliant.

It's just the sort of thing that JKR would do, and unlike many of the other well-thought-out theories out there which sometimes go too deep, the evidence can really be seen clearly - the unnaturalness of the water in the lake, the mentions of the DLD which has yet to play a part in the plot, the wormwood and asphodel, the importance of Snape and potions... and other evidence supporting Dumbledore being alive has already been expounded by dumbledoreisnotdead.com and others.

I'm completely on the fence now, whereas before I was more "He's dead but I wish he wasn't." I know that this editorial isn't necessarily saying that Dumbledore is alive, but if the water in the lake was indeed DLD, I don't see what would be the point in it if he was going to die anyway. It would spoil the beauty of the whole plot imo.

Many of the reasons that people give for Dumbledore having to be dead are not that insurmountable:
- "Bringing him back would be too LOTR-ish" - well, killing him would be too Star Wars-ish wouldn't it? You can't have a series with such common themes have absolutely no similarities to other similar series, so I don't think that should be an issue at all.
- "Harry has to go on alone" - in LOTR, the only member of the fellowship who actually died was Boromir... but Frodo still did his task alone. Dumbledore can still be alive and help in other ways, like Gandalf, Aragorn etc did.
- "JKR said that once someone is dead, they're dead" - but if he's not dead, he's not dead. None of these theories are saying that Dumbledore actually died and will come back to life.

The only problem left to be resolved, imo, is the unbreakable vow.

Of course, I don't mean to say that if the unbreakable vow can also be explained, that Dumbledore is definitely alive - no one can say that except JKR herself, until book 7 comes out.

that was a great editorial!! It is very intriguing and very convinving! wow! I really liked it!
She has said once they are properly dead, they are dead. But we have a reoccurring theme that also pops up.
she words things very carefully, that could be a hint!

Great detective work! I'm amazed at the careful reading that went into this.

But the idea of Dumbledore in a potion-induced sleep in his tomb, unknown to everyone, sends shivers down my spine. And wasn't he cremated?

This was very thought-provoking, and opinion-changing too, as it may seem. Certainly opened my mind to it.

I think that it would be worse if Dumbldore was to remain sleeping for all eternity instead of dying. Of course, if no one realized that he was, in fact, sleeping, and didn't get antidote or something to wake him up. Actually, this now reminds me of Snow White & the Seven Dwarves, or Sleeping Beauty. Great, now there'll be fanfics of McGonagall or some other woman giving Dumbledore a kiss to wake him up...

Still, a very good editorial and theory. I won't be surprised if you tirn out to be right!

I think that it would be worse if Dumbldore was to remain sleeping for all eternity instead of dying. Of course, if no one realized that he was, in fact, sleeping, and didn't get antidote or something to wake him up. Actually, this now reminds me of Snow White & the Seven Dwarves, or Sleeping Beauty. Great, now there'll be fanfics of McGonagall or some other woman giving Dumbledore a kiss to wake him up...
Good idea! I nominate you to write one, CrazyIdeaz. There's not enough Dumbledore fan fiction out there, in my opinion. Just because Dumbledore is an old guy, does that mean he shouldn't get as many opportunities as (fannon) Snape to do the horizontal mamba? :lol:

If Dumbledore isn't dead, then why is he sitting in his protrait in the Headmaster's office like every other dead Headmaster?

If Dumbledore isn't dead, then why is he sitting in his protrait in the Headmaster's office like every other dead Headmaster?

Dumbledore is a rather clever chap. If he was planning to fake his death I'm confident he'd could have had these little details worked out in advance.

This may have been said during the production of this thread but why have a potion in the basin that makes you want water to then drink out of the lake which will make you go to sleep as its draft of the living death, when you could just as easily make the potion in the basin the draft of the living dead instead?

Also making an entire lakes worth of draft of the living death wouldn't be relalistic.

This may have been said during the production of this thread but why have a potion in the basin that makes you want water to then drink out of the lake which will make you go to sleep as its draft of the living death, when you could just as easily make the potion in the basin the draft of the living dead instead?
Good point!
Also making an entire lakes worth of draft of the living death wouldn't be relalistic.
I was thinking of that too. Would there be enough asphodel and wormwood available? And even if there was, wouldn't people notice the severe depletion of asphodel and wormwood in their local wizarding supply shop?

Oh well, it's a brilliant idea even if it's wrong.

I'm pasting a reply here from the essay author himself regarding the questions of why the potion is in the lake (rather than the basin) and the quantity. Much more can be found in the original thread covering this theory at http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=79218&page=14.

[Text from original poster, Cryoz]

From the author's perspective, that is a superb way to disguise a certain potion. Making a potion look like a full lake of water is a great distracting factor. Voldemort would surely think the same. While the intruder is worried about the ominous-looking green potion, he doesn't even notice the innocuous-looking water around him, which is what the he should really be worried about. This is a much greater trap, and is much more fitting to Voldemort's ingenious and deceptive way of thinking. If the Draught was made in small quantities, it would draw more attention, because the more if it the more it resembles water and its prevalence. If not mush of it was made it would lose its deceptive value. Voldemort further exploited the vastness of the the Draught of Living Death by putting Inferi in it - the Living Dead. There are several explanations offered to how Voldemort created so much potion, and are all logical and match Voldemort's abilities.

From the author's perspective, that is a superb way to disguise a certain potion. Making a potion look like a full lake of water is a great distracting factor. Voldemort would surely think the same. While the intruder is worried about the ominous-looking green potion, he doesn't even notice the innocuous-looking water around him, which is what the he should really be worried about. This is a much greater trap, and is much more fitting to Voldemort's ingenious and deceptive way of thinking. If the Draught was made in small quantities, it would draw more attention, because the more if it the more it resembles water and its prevalence. If not mush of it was made it would lose its deceptive value. Voldemort further exploited the vastness of the the Draught of Living Death by putting Inferi in it - the Living Dead. There are several explanations offered to how Voldemort created so much potion, and are all logical and match Voldemort's abilities.
But whoever wants to get the horcrux has to drink the green potion ANYWAY. So what difference does it make whether they're more worried about the green potion or the water?

When I read HBP I knew Dumbledore died no question all though I didn't want to believe it at first...:upset: .Snape killed him. End of story. I tried to ignore all the debate about Dumbledore not being dead because it seemed very unlikely to me. For one thing, the astronomy tower ain't exactly small so unless Fawkes caught him in mid free fall I don't think he survived.

When I read you editorial, however, I was struck dumb (speechless to you in the USA). How on earth could I have missed something like that. You write so well and so thuroughly that I see no other way about it: Dumbledore must be under the influence of the "Draught of the Living Death"(DotLD). Perhaps it has some "Speeping Beauty" type properties because after all she "slept" for 100 years without aging a day so maybe the DotLD postpones the effet of inguries i.e. falling off the tower or Avada Kedavra.

1) DotLD has hardly any ripples = Lake with hardly any ripples
2) DotLD is as clear as water = Lake is or looks like water

It just makes so much sence that you may have spun yet another thread that JKR will have to tie in with the rest of her loose ends in HP7.
The editorials over the passed few weeks have either been a little repetitive or they didn't interest me much. Yours caught my eye and it is the best I've read since the one that suggested Draco could be a werewolf.

Keep up the good work and I'm sure you will find more things we have missed...

P.S. Have a look at my fan fic: see my signature below.

Question: in the Potions class, when the potion is supposed to turn as clear as water, is that the colour it remains? Just wanted to verify that because sometimes a potion has to turn one colour during the making process but ends up a different colour.

With regards to the effects of the Draught of Living Death, the first time I heard of it I was convinced that it was a reference to the potion that appears in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, when Juliet apparently dies so she can wake up three days later and go off with Romeo. That might be useful in trying to determine the effects of that potion.

This is definitely an interesting idea, but pardon me if I pick a few nits.

1) The fact that the potion is the color of water doesn't mean it has its other (non-magical) physical properties, or even its superficial appearance. It might be thicker, or more or less viscous for example. Harry would probably notice this when he dipped the goblet, especially if the "water" left strings like the cheese of a pizza. Is anything besides the color of the potion made clear by Sluggo?

2) I think the potion in the bowl is meant to memorialize Riddle's abuse of the orphans in the cave, by having the person who drinks it relive their memories. The dialogue that Dumbledore uses, and the fact that the bowl resembles a pensieve both suggest this possibility. So I have no problem with it being a trick and the real defense being something else.

3) But, what is the logic of how the trap is supposed to work? Dumbledore seems to think that a sole raider would not be able to get down enough of the potion to get to the prize at the bottom of the bowl. The delusional raider would them presumably disturb the inferi, and be killed by them. He would not necesarily drink the water, though he might be drowned in it.

But Harry helps him get it down, they get to the Horcrux, and Dumbledore asks for water. Somehow Dumbledore's delusion vanishes. And even though he's drunk as much of the green potion as Voldemort could imagine, he still manages to fight off the inferi, and escapes the cave.

But what's the point of that? If he does eventually succumb to the effects of the Draught of Living Death, how does that help Voldemort, who now would have no idea where he, and the horcrux, had gone? It doesn't protect the horcrux, its presumed purpose, nor does it tell Voldemort anything about who took it or how they found it. A poison which atcually kills would do the job better, and since Voldemort fears death worst of all, its not likely he would consider the living death a worse punishment. Perhaps someone has already figured these angles out.

4) An alternative might be that Dumbledore did recognize the lake as a potion, as the antidote to the potion in the bowl. That would explain why the delusion clears when it does. But then the request would seem to be part of the delusion. And then it would really be for water. But having the antidote to hand would make it easier for Voldemort to remove the Horcrux if he chooses, or sends an emmissary.

5) The fact that he got out of the cave with the locket makes it seem that something about what Dumbledore did, strategy wise, was not something Voldemort anticiapated when he set up the defenses. Perhaps it was taking Harry along. But Harry is the one who gave him the "water', he might not have been able to get it himself. Would the the delusion then be permanent ? The potions we have seen generally have a limited duration. ANd if he had gotten it himself, he showed that even under the effect of both potions he could still fight his way out of the cave.


As I said, this editorial is an interesting idea, but I think it needs more thought to put it properly into context.

I don't think the size of the lake is a major problem at all, this is Voldemort, one of the greatest wizards of the age, we're talking about.

As to the question of why have two potions instead of just one, it could just be that Voldemort's sadistic nature wouldn't be satisfied with just putting his enemy to sleep. He wanted to make him suffer first, and I'm sure he'd enjoy the irony of having his victim ask for the thing that would put him to sleep.

Why put the victim to sleep? To get information from them, as Dumbledore said.

And it's possible the job of the Inferi was not to kill intruders, but to hold them captive, again to allow Voldemort to come back and question them.


And even though he's drunk as much of the green potion as Voldemort could imagine, he still manages to fight off the inferi, and escapes the cave.



That's a good point, and the only thing I can think of is that Dumbledore is less susceptible to the effects of DLD, great wizard that he is. However that doesn't correspond with the increasing mentions of his physical weakness in HBP. Or could it be that he didn't really take in a large amount of the DLD? From what I remember he was just splashed with it... I don't have the book with me, so can someone confirm? Did Harry then give him water that he (Harry) conjured up? If that's the case then that would mean that bringing Harry with him was what allowed him to overcome the obstacles.

A well written article and very thought provoking. I agree that it is a possibility but I'm still skeptical. I almost certain Dumbledore died. I agree with many of you that a lake of draught of the living dead is impractical. Nevertheless the editorial deserves two thumbs up.

Well im pretty sure dumbledore is gone. I admit it does seem to fit very well. But Dumbledore probably should not have been able to rise and fight off the inferi after drinking the stuff. Theres no question that Snape got him full on with the Avada Kedavra. Despite the fact that this clicks better than most outlandish theories, im still inclined to believe that Dumbledore was weakened and possibly mortally wounded by the green stuff and nearing the end when he was hit by the other green stuff.

Princess Leia-After theorizing the bits out of this stuff, it helps me to occasionally re-read the book to clear out what I thoght it said from what it actually says..

You are right in recalling that Dumbledore never really drank from the lake, he only had the "icy black water" splashed on his face, because...

Harry had been grabbed by the arm by an inferi almost as soon as he broke the surface of the water with the goblet.

To me that disproves this whole line, because just about anyone is going to get grabbed by the inferi before they drink from the lake. A very inefficient way of poisoning someone.

I think this was a briliantly written editorial. I wouldn't have ever guessed that was what that was and that seems something that jo would hide in her writting like she always does.

Perhaps the protrait is not a true indicator of death as Harry supposed, Afterall what was the portrait doing in the head masters office....... Sleeping!


That is definitely someting to think about! Very interesting. I absolutely loved the article....I never read the editorials before. Nice job!

You have written a very insightful editorial. I believe that Dumbledore explains to Harry that the green potion will eventually kill him, however, I wondered whether he could have simply used the cup to scoop uot the potion and not drink it, but pouring it on the floor. Also, your theory about the lake water also being a potion is most likely probeble because of the effect it has on Harry's skin when he touches it in order to scoop some out. I still maintain that dumbledore id truly dead, but Fawks will make another appearance in book seven.

Wow. That was a really interesting editorial. And it all makes perfect sense now. But as much as I would like to think he's asleep, I think that Dumbledore is dead.

This is the first time I have ever posted to a thread, so bear with me. I agree that you made some excellent points. :clap:

One observation I have made goes back to GoF. Barty Crouch Jr stated "Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed." And, in OotP Harry cast the spell "Crucio" at Bellatrix, her respose was "Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean them, Potter!"

Hence, in HBP if Severus Snape didn't mean to kill Dumbledore, then could he have killed Dumbledore? This I believe is the ultimate question.

That is actually a good question about having to mean the unforgivable curses and whether Snape meant it or not. does this mean that Dumbledore is like King Arthur of Great Britain and sleeping until he is needed again? Or will it be Fawkes who will reappear on his behalf when he is needed? On the other hand, will it be his eccentric brother Aberforth who will come to the rescue and help out Harry and co?
Questions, questions, questions - and no answers yet. How frustrating not to know but how sad when we do as it means the end of the series.

I found it mysterious and really enjoyable it really got me thinking.

I love this editorial and I think it is definitely a possibility. I also think Dumbledore could have known that he was drinking the draught of the living dead through Snape. If Snape is on the side of the light, he could have told Dumbledore what it was because perhaps he was the one that made it (he is a world class potions master after all). And if he didn't tell Dumbledore then he could have recognized the affects when he saw him again atop the tower. It would be very ironic if Dumbledore was asleep in a tomb somewhere and the only person who knew this was on the run for his murder. A murder which he did not commit (Sirius anyone?).

JKR said books 2 and 6 are very closely related and book two was when she first mentioned the draught, I believe, which lends this idea more credibility. Snape probably could have faked the Avads Kedavra and as the author pointed out, there was that moment of intense eye contact that could have been more than just that. But then that begs the question: where does that leave Snape in relationship to his promise to Narcissa?

And Dumbledore didn't drink too much of it so does that mean he will awaken and make his entrance at the most dramatic time possible? So many literary characters have done this so many times and I think JKR will want to carve her own path and surprise us a bit. Many, many questions to ponder...

Also, if Snape made all of Voldemort's potions, wouldn't it be very ironic if it turns out that he had killed Dumbledore with the green potion before he had even uttered the killing curse that night atop the tower...

I think that that is ingenious! Although I believe that Dumbledore really is dead, it could still be the Draught of the Living Death. I bet that something will crop up later about that "water."

It's one of the best theories I've heard for ages. If it doesn't end up being true, it's a really good one anyway, and extremely plausible!

Good work!

Holy hippogriff! Excellent editorial and fascinating theory. I am always amazed at how people construct theories and pick up tidbits the average reader wouldn't think about twice. Brilliantly constructed and intriguing. Thanks for sharing this!

One thing is how come Dumbledore didn't realise that the "water" wasn't really water?

remember - Dumbledore had taken a potion that made him almost incapable of doing anything besides protecting harry with the ring of fire. But he was not normal, and the potion made him want water so badly that he probably didn't notice anything else at the time. Also, Voldemort wouldn't have made the potion in a way that would allow the drinker to restrain themselves from drinking the "water".

btw - this editorial was excellent, I never would have thought of that.

This is a really good editorial and it seems very likely. But Dumbledore never really drank the water/sleeping potion, Harry threw it over his head, and then he got conscious again. Also, if somebody drank from the lake, he'd be drowned before he'd be asleep.

I do not think the author meant you to believe that the Inferi had drank the water-like potion, just Dumbledore. The inferi were merely supended in it, waiting for its surface to be disturbed.

Right, but there still wouldn't be a need for the Draught of Living Death. Whatever was in that green potion would have kept the drinker either trapped on the island or drowned in the lake or killed by the Inferi, and that would have been that. (Assuming, of course, that the drinker was there alone.) Also, as it has been pointed out several times, Dumbledore never drank the water Harry got for him. Harry splashed it over Dumbledore's face when one of the Inferi grabbed his arm. So if it was the Draught of Living Death, it wouldn't have had the slightest effect on Dumbledore.

With reference to post 146, by hedwig228, the Draught of Living Death is first mentioned in Book 1, in Harry's first ever Potions class: "What do you get if you add powdered asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?...A sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death."

THis is my favourite editorial...

I beleive this editorial is 99% accurate... GREAT JOB!

This is going to bother me unless I say it...


Could Dumbledore have just trown the potion into the lake instead of drinking it??:shrug: :shrug:

I have to say I loved this editiorial and was wait for someonne to find out in DH that Dumbledore had only been killed by the Draught of living death, though I didn't think Dumbledore would come back to life.

But it didn't happen...