Your Mother Needn't Have Died

Discussion of the editorial Your Mother Needn't Have Died (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-sdavies01.shtml) by Stephanie Davies, aka Harryzhorcrux.

Great editorial, you raised a good lot of ideas :)



(am i seriously the first?? whoa, new for me ;))

Wow! Excellent, EXCELLENT editorial!:clap:

I've been pondering this question myself, and this idea seems so obvious I'm amazed it hadn't occured to me before. Nonetheless, congrats on putting it down in writing so excellently, and getting the gears in my brain churning! This theory fits nicely with another one I've been considering. I may have to write an editorial about it... :lol:

Once again, great job!:tu:

Yeah I loved reading it but to me I feel as though her JOB, her being able to live had more to do with it than just being a pawn...

Very interesting, and definitely got me thinking. The idea that Voldemort intended to blame the Potters' murders on a scapegoat (and it seems so obvious now that you point it out!) prompted me to think of something else along similar lines, in particular:

What if Peter Pettigrew was the intended scapegoat? I have wondered for some time if his betrayal of the Potters could have been partially motivated by romantic feelings for Lily. The reason I have wondered about this is that, IIRC, after Peter became the secret keeper there was a delay before he informed Voldemort. My memory of this is fuzzy, but I think it was "within a week". Why would he wait a week after becoming secret keeper to make his appeal to (what he saw as) the more powerful side? That led me to wonder if something happened to disappoint him, a rejection perhaps, and prompetd him to give them over to Voldemort as payback.

So I would think it would go something like this: Peter took Voldemort to their hiding place--this places Peter at the scene. Voldemort's intention was to kill James and Harry, and make it look like Peter had murdered them in a jealous rage, to be with Lily. It is consistent with this plan that Lily would not be killed, because Peter would have no motivation to kill her. Voldemort would then place a Memory Charm on both Peter and Lily.

Oh, the evilness of making it look like Peter murdered for love...

Placing Peter at the scene means he was there to take Voldemort's wand after he fell; and as a firsthand witness he also was in the perfect position to inform Dumbledore (perhaps via Patronus) before heading out to cover his tracks by framing Sirius and faking his own death. In this scenario, informing Dumbledore is part of saving himself, so that also explains how the news got out so quickly.

I have to say I think this works very nicely.

I thought I remembered that Lily and James were pretty famous before their deaths. If it's not specifically canon in the first book, then it was at least discussed in a MuggleCast episode and generally agreed upon (I can't remember if someone gave page numbers or not). Thay had thrice defied Voldemort, after all. Everyone knows who the Longbottoms are, too, and what happened to them.

I agree that your editorial is very well-written and makes a great point. Certainly what you say is very likely. I'm such a sap, though, and I really do hope that Lily meant more to the whole episode than just that. :)

Enlil might be onto something, and I think some of the editorial's ideas are good. The big problem I see with the main point is that Voldemort did end up killing Lily. If he was going to put a memory charm on her, why didn't he put a memory charm on her instead of killing her? He could have even stunned her and waited to do the memory work afterwards. The reason has to be perfect to explain why he didn't want to kill her, but then felt like he had to or at least might as well.

So I would think it would go something like this: Peter took Voldemort to their hiding place--this places Peter at the scene. Voldemort's intention was to kill James and Harry, and make it look like Peter had murdered them in a jealous rage, to be with Lily. It is consistent with this plan that Lily would not be killed, because Peter would have no motivation to kill her. Voldemort would then place a Memory Charm on both Peter and Lily.

Oh, the evilness of making it look like Peter murdered for love...

That's interesting, but it's too much speculation (in my opinion). I like what the editorial suggested - it makes perfect sense! The Longbottoms aren't that famous - Ron didn't know about Neville's parents....

It's a perfectly simple explanation for why Lily was offered her life - I like it!

wow wow and wow. This editorial is so amazing. I never really considered what you had brought up. But now that i have read the editorial it just seems all so obvious. Thank you.Voldemort using a Memory Charm on Lily would have been so very very cruel and so very very Voldemort. Can you imagine how horrible it would have been if Lily had been persuaded to believe that she had confessed to the murder of her own child and husband whom she had loved so very much. The horror of it! Mind you they probably would have been able to break through the Charm and with that spell to find the last spell a wand does it would have been possible to prove her innocence.
Mind you the Dark Lord was doomed all along because like Macbeth he stored too much on the prophecy.. Macbeth(the evil Thane (scottish lord) and usurper King) hears the weird sisters prophecy and goes to kill Macduff's wife and kids, without thinking of the consequences. He thinks he's invinsible but decides to do it just in case. I wounder if there are any more Macbeth connections. Macduff's wife died in a very similar way to Lily, I think.

Maybe Voldemort was present at the killing of the Longbottoms?
According to this pattern, Neville's forgetfulness could be because of a charm Voldy inflicted on him...

Very well-written.... Like many others said, the editorial really got me thinking. The only thing I wonder is, if your theory is true, what will be the "big revelation" about Lilly in the final book. If she was simply going to be used as a scapegoat I don't think that really qualifies, but who knows? Either way, I think you did a great job of researching and using evidence to support. Even if I don't necessarily agree, I think that you did a great job.

Great editorial, and well-written.
I don't really agree though. In the first 2 murders voldemort makes, he wasn't making hocruxes yet. He asks slughorn about the hocrux after killing Tom Riddle Sr, as for hepzibah smith he might've. But still, at the time, he still wasn't powerful enough to commit murder and have a whole bunch of aurors on to him and trying to catch him, which is why he would've needed to cover up the murders. However when he killed Lily potter, he didn't really need to cover it up. Who would suspect anything if he just murdered the whole family? It's not like voldemort wasn't known to kill people, and the potters were quite powerful to have eluded him 3 times already. So keeping lily alive to blame the murders on her would not make much sense, as there's no motive for voldemort to cover up these murders.

great editorial. I must say its one of the best i'v read, and i totally agree!!
Great work

Hi,
This was a very interesting editorial, which I enjoyed reading. At first it seemed very convincing but then I thought some more, and I think I see one flaw in your theory. When Voldemort committed the Smith and Riddle murders, he wasn't the great "you know who" yet. He was hardly in a position in life when he could risk being exposed - remember, he was still not of age when his father was murdered. So he really needed to hide his blame. The same goes for when he was a young assisstant at Borgin and Burke's - he didn't have an army of deatheaters behind him yet. Consider Frank Bryce's murder - he never made any particular effort trying to cover it up, and certainly didn't try to blame someone for it, yet this murder is considered (though not definitely) as the one used for the creation of Nagini as a horcrux. Perhaps Voldemort didn't bother covering up for it because Frank was a muggle and he didn't imagine anyone in the wizarding world would investigate the death of a muggle. but it is still very different than the other two killings stated.
However, by the time Voldemort went after Harry, he was at the top of his strength, and the use of the dark mark only comes to show that neither he not those who acted on his own behalf ever bothered to cover their tracks at that time. On the contrary - their purpose was to make the murders as public as possible, to inspire more terror. I can see just as much sense in Voldemort making Harry's murder well known - there came the great dark lord, who defeated his last possible enemy, and thus established his reign... Indeed, he wanted to keep his horcrux making a secret, but there is no evidence in what we currently know about horcruxes that the horcrux has to be made at exactly the same time or place as the murder. He could have made the murder famous while keeping the horcrux a secret.
Another point to consider is that you only have those two horcrux murders to base the theory upon. There are also the locket and the diary, which we know very little about, in terms of how they were made. Were they created when voldemort was in or out of power? Everyone in the wizarding world knows that Voldemort was responsible for numerous deaths. But there is no absolute victims list, so it could have been any of them. In Order of the phoenix, p. 158 Moody mentions Dorcas Meadows who was mudered by Voldemort himself. could she have been used for a horcrux? It was obviously not covered up.
Anyway, my point is that its a bit too far to assume that hiding the killer's identity has to be a recurring factor in a horcrux murder. But never the less, a very well written editorial. I have to admit I can't offer any wholesome theory as to why Lily was offered her life so many times.

Congratulations! This editorial is well thought out and makes a great deal of sense. Sometimes the easiest things to miss are the ones that are the most obvious. It will be a great deal of fun when the seventh book is published and we have all of our questions answered and our speculations confirmed or shot down.

I rarely post replies to the (mostly) wonderful Mugglenet editorials, but I enjoy reading what others have to say. I have a question for MacGyverMagic, the person who is responsible for Post #10 on this thread. I agree that it's very possible, even likely, that Neville is under the influence/protection of a Memory Charm, but why are you speculating whether or not "Voldemort was present at the killing of the Longbottoms"? If you're making reference to Neville's parents, Frank and Alice Longbottom, they are most certainly NOT dead. They are permanent(?) residents at St. Mungo's Hospital.

It seems so simple, I'm surprised there hasn't been more speculation on this idea! Great editorial, it really opens a lot of doors and possbilities.

Now this is what I call a brilliant editorial, really well done. Also I would like to point out something here


Lily potter was an exceptional potioneer. It is repeatedly emphasized in HBP by Slughorn. This might be the other reason why Voldemort wanted Lily potter alive.
The HBP is not a complete book- we all know that, there are unsolved mysteries sprinkled all over the book. One thing we noticed that it looks like a girl's handwriting inside Harry's copy of Advanced Potion making. We still have no proof whose handwriting it is..the book might have belonged to Snape but the point is that it is still worth discussing about these tiny things. I have a feeling that the APM book story isn't over yet. :)
Snape or Regulus Black might be present on the night potter's were killed.Looks like these are all inter-linked, don't you think?

Really great job:clap:

I don't know who posted this, but someone said that it was weird voldemort wanted lily allive for the memory charm and then killed her anyway... well he could just as easily have blamed the murder on pettigrew allone instead of involving lilly... He could make Pettigrew believe lilly rejected him, so pettigrew decided to kill her...

Great editorial, and well-written.
I don't really agree though. In the first 2 murders voldemort makes, he wasn't making hocruxes yet. He asks slughorn about the hocrux after killing Tom Riddle Sr, as for hepzibah smith he might've. But still, at the time, he still wasn't powerful enough to commit murder and have a whole bunch of aurors on to him and trying to catch him, which is why he would've needed to cover up the murders. However when he killed Lily potter, he didn't really need to cover it up. Who would suspect anything if he just murdered the whole family? It's not like voldemort wasn't known to kill people, and the potters were quite powerful to have eluded him 3 times already. So keeping lily alive to blame the murders on her would not make much sense, as there's no motive for voldemort to cover up these murders.
This was exactly what I thought when reading the editorial. When Voldemort killed Heptziba Smith and the Riddles he was a respectable member of the wizarding community, and he wasn't quite as skilled or had as many followers yet so he couldn't afford being chased after by the entire ministry. At the time Voldemort murdered the Potters he was already known as a powerful dark wizard who killed many people. What difference would it was known he killed 3 more people? No one would be surprised...
I'd also like to point out that Dumbledore didn't break the memory charms Voldemort put on Morphin and Hokey, he merely found other memories that existed in their minds. The one he found in Morphin's contradicted the planted memory, but the one found in Hokey's didn't prove anything.

I just don't think it's practical. Everyone who knew the Potters would not have thought Lily would do such a thing. Dumbledore would be more suspicious and probably look more deeply into it than if it looked the work of a Death Eater. If anything, framing Wormtail would make the most sense. It's an interesting idea, but it doesn't really answer all the questions that arise. I'm sure JKR will blow our minds, when we learn...

simple idea, and it could work...

But can we really say there's a "pattern" after only looking at two of the six horcruxes? Not logically.

I also have to agree with ptrut12345, that anyone who knew the Potters would KNOW Lily would never do such a thing, so I don't think that a memory charm on her would be believable. Morphin and Hokey were very believable as murderers of their victims. Morphin was already known to hate muggles and specifically the Riddle family, and Hokey was a really old house-elf. So in the eyes of the MoM, these suspects fit with the crime. This is NOT true of Lily if she was given the blame. It doesn't fit.

But, I have to say the editorial brings up a point I never thought of before, and it could be significant. Very significant.

Tom Riddle asked about the Horcruxes AFTER he had killed his muggle father. Now, I can't remember, but was Tom in his fifth year when this occured? I can't remember if it said so or not, please someone, if you know...
BUT if Tom is in his fifth year when he asks about the horcruxes, he has already killed Myrtle as well. That means one of two things:

1) He already knew how to make a horcrux before he asked Slughorn, or at least had a good enough idea to make one out of the diary before he asked Slughorn.

2) The torn parts of Tom's soul, from when he killed Myrtle and his father, remained torn for the two years/some months and thus he could make a horcrux with these torn parts some time after the murders had already taken place.

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been under the assumption that a horcrux had to be made about the same time the murder takes place. If this is the case, then Myrtle and Tom Sr. could not be horcrux related killings.

SO. I know believe that a horcrux can be made many months, even years after a murder has taken place. Is this significant? It may support those who doNOT believe Harry is a horcrux. An accidental one, as the main theory goes now, I think.

This was exactly what I thought when reading the editorial. When Voldemort killed Heptziba Smith and the Riddles he was a respectable member of the wizarding community, and he wasn't quite as skilled or had as many followers yet so he couldn't afford being chased after by the entire ministry. At the time Voldemort murdered the Potters he was already known as a powerful dark wizard who killed many people. What difference would it was known he killed 3 more people? No one would be surprised....
My opinion about this is that Voldemort wanted to hide his connection to his Horcrux murders, very deliberately: I think he didn't tell anyone (after his initial question to Slughorn, anyway) about his plan for making a 7-part soul, and he didn't want anything he did in realizing that plan to be connected to him--hence the need to cover up. I can see him continuing this with Harry's murder, which was supposed to be the final murder to complete his 7-part soul and make him invulnerable. In this scenario, James didn't get killed because he was in the way, but because it was part of Voldemort's planned cover up.

This also seems consistent with Dumbledore's comment that very few people realize Lord Voldemort used to be a student at Hogwarts named Tom Riddle. Voldemort seems to not publicize this at all, he is very secretive about this. He is keeping it to himself because it is very personally important to him.

Actually, is there even a single murder in canon that could be directly attributable to Voldemort? He seems to want to keep himself "squeaky clean" in that regard.

Maybe Voldemort was present at the killing of the Longbottoms?
According to this pattern, Neville's forgetfulness could be because of a charm Voldy inflicted on him...

What?? The longbottoms are not dead!!!!!
Some people......

If Voldemort had wanted to frame Lily for the killings or use Lily in some other way, then he would simply have stunned her, modified her memory and been done with it, just as he did with his uncle.

Also, the fact that Voldemort covered up his prior murders should not be taken as a generalization of how he likes to do his Horcrux murders. Voldemort's first murders were committed by someone who, although a talented young wizard, was still a long way from being above the law. The Voldemort at Godric's Hollow could kill with impunity. He set off Dark Marks to mark his murders. He was very much above the law because the wizard legal system could not touch him. Unlike the teenager or Borgin & Burke's employee, he had zero reason to hide his murders, whereas the younger Voldemort had every reason to do so.


So, we instead have to look for some other reason why Voldemort offered to spare Lily. Remember that Voldemort is bereft of many normal emotions: if he was offered the choice of living or dying to save an offspring, he would not think twice. Indeed, he probably would thank the person for sparing him (before killing the person later when the opportunity arose: not in revenge for his child, but for the threat that the individual clearly represented).

We have other clues. Somebody convinced Dumbledore that he cared enough about at least one of the inhabitants of Godrics Hollow that he warned Dumbledore and the Potters that they were marked. That somebody did not care much for Lily's husband, and he was thought by Voldemort to be a loyal Death Eater. If Snape did this for Lily (for whatever reasons), then it also makes sense that he would have been trying to convince Voldemort to not kill Lily if he could. It's called burning both ends of the candle, and it might go a long way towards explaining Snape.



As for the Horcruxes, the real question still is: where did Voldemort hide the remaining two? What they are is not of great importance: find the location, use the curse-breaking skills to detect, elude and/or disarm the traps, and the shiny thing with the badger/eagle/lion will be the Horcrux! We have seen a Horcrux destroyed: break the vessel, and release the soul.

I enjoyed reading the editorial, but I can't agree with it, partially because of reasons others have said before me, and partially because if this was the reason he wanted her alive, I don't see why Rowling would make such a mystery of it.

This theory is plausible but i think Jo has something more spectacular than this up her sleeve. Its possible but I think unlikely. Voldemort must have had some other reason to spare Lilly's life than just to implant a false memory. Even if that was the reason to keep her alive its too unbelievable that she would kill her husband and son and blow her house up. Dumbledore said magic can be traced, so with a curse that powerful it could easily be traced to Voldemort. Another reason I see this theory unlikely is Dumbledore. He would know Lily wouldnt do that and would know she didnt fire the killing curse. Therefore i find it unlikely that Voldemort would use Lilly for this reason. No one knows the reason Voldemort spared Lilly but this was still a good editorial that proposed possible ideas as to why Voldemort showed Lilly mercy. The only reason I think Voldemort would have spared Lilly was he had some use for her. Voldy could have heard about her abilities at potions and maybe thought he could use her to produce complex potions that he could use to protect his horcruxes or for some other reason. He could put her under the imperius curse and when he was finished with her he would just kill her. No one but Jo knows the answer to why but this would be my guess as to why Lilly was spared. Anyway good editorial it proposed a lot of good points and made me think. Keep up the good work!


"The unknown is all we fear from death and darkness, nothing more"

" Its our choices who show who we really are, far more than our abilities"
-Albus dumbledore

I think this editorial was well written but I don't believe that your theory is true. As many others have already said, Voldemort didn't need to cover up the murder. He was already Lord Voldemort, You-Know-Who, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. People certainly did know about the Potters and it doesn't seem likely that two people who despised the Dark Arts would keep their true loyalties quiet. They had also defied the Dark Lord three times. If James and Harry ended up dead, everybody would have a good idea as to who did it. While it would be deliciously cruel to have Lily admitting to the murders, it would just not make sense due to what we understand from canon.

Plus we know that Lord Voldemort loves his "street cred." Having such a famous family on his "dead" list would only make him more terrifying to the rest of the wizarding community.

Mmm, good theory, but not plausible. If Voldemort had really wanted to blame the deaths on Lily, he would have stunned her, or incapacitated her, not just get impatient and kill her.

Even if we call framing Morfin and Hokey a pattern, this one doesn't really fit.

Hokey was a House Elf, so it would've been hard to pin an Avada Kedavra on her. Tom made it look like she'd used poison to kill Hepzibah.

But Lily was a witch. If she were to go crazy and kill her husband and son, people wouldn't be surprised to learn she'd used the Killing Curse. That makes her case much more like Morfin's.

And what did Tom make sure to do when he framed Morfin? He stole Morfin's wand, and used it to commit the murders. That way Morfin's wand could be shown to be the murder weapon after he confessed.

So if Voldemort was following this "pattern" and intended to frame Lily, shouldn't he have used Lily's wand to perform the Avada Kedavras that killed her family? If you're going to frame someone for murder, you might as well do it right... It's too risky to go to all that trouble getting Lily to confess only to have a procedural check of Lily's wand (which they obviously do) reveal that the last spells it had performed were all defensive.

And unless we're going to throw out Ollivander's big ominous statement from way back in the first book, Voldemort was definitely not using Lily's wand that night.

So... I don't think this is it.

Personally, I imagine Voldemort's offering to spare Lily had a lot more to do with his own Mommy Issues.

I think this editorial was well written but I don't believe that your theory is true. As many others have already said, Voldemort didn't need to cover up the murder. He was already Lord Voldemort, You-Know-Who, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. People certainly did know about the Potters and it doesn't seem likely that two people who despised the Dark Arts would keep their true loyalties quiet. They had also defied the Dark Lord three times. If James and Harry ended up dead, everybody would have a good idea as to who did it. While it would be deliciously cruel to have Lily admitting to the murders, it would just not make sense due to what we understand from canon.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I do have one question. I do not recall reading anywhere about speculation that Harry's advanced potions book is a Horcrux. Since Harry cut the cover off this book and replaced it with the cover from a new book I think it unlikely the APB could be a Horcrux. Could someone please refer me to the editorial, statement etc regarding this theory?

Good editorial but I also have some doubt that Voldemort wanted to spare Lily or order to frame her for James and Harry's murder.
It now remains for JK to answer that question but we may not find out until the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort when he will be nasty enough to taunt Harry with this information.

Stephanie, are you related to Roger?

Well, that is what I call a brilliant use of deduction. Based on his patterns in making Horcruxes, you have made your theory.

I've never thought of it in that light at all. And it would just make so much sense that Voldemort would think he can get away yet again, in the same way he has always gotten away. But what I don't understand is why he would be scared of people knowing that it was he who killed the Potters this time around. I mean, see, when he killed his grandfather and Hepzibah, he had been a mere schoolboy whom no one would suspect, and he would want to keep it that way. So now that he was on the loose, at the height of his power, why take such caution?

So I guess that's the only hole that I can see in your theory.

I think this is a good idea. I have never believed there was any kind of relationship between Snape and Lily and even if there was I doubt Voldemort would have spared her at Snape's request.

It does seem unlikely that Lily would have been easy to frame as Morfin and the house elf but as the editorial states: even if it became obvious Voldemort had killed Harry and made a Horcrux- the only one with the power to defeat him would have died.

Enlil might be onto something, and I think some of the editorial's ideas are good. The big problem I see with the main point is that Voldemort did end up killing Lily. If he was going to put a memory charm on her, why didn't he put a memory charm on her instead of killing her? He could have even stunned her and waited to do the memory work afterwards. The reason has to be perfect to explain why he didn't want to kill her, but then felt like he had to or at least might as well.
I agree. The fact that he ended up killing her anyway is the main problem.

It's possible that Lily put up a better fight than we think. That Voldemort had trouble stunning her, or putting an Imperius Curse or Memory Charm on her. But he still wanted her alive for some reason. I like the idea that she was supposed to provide false evidence in a frame-up, but I think it's more likely that Voldemort intended to make her tell everyone that Sirius was the Secret Keeper, because he wanted to protect his spy in the Order: Peter. That'd be important to him, but maybe not important enough to bother too much with her. If he found out that she wasn't easy to manipulate, he might have changed his mind and decided that killing her was the safer option. But he already had offered to let her live by then.

But that wouldn't be a big mystery. Jo could have explained that when Emerson asked her.:grumble:

Maybe she didn't just fight with her wand, but offered to do something for Voldemort if he spared her son (most mothers would do that). Or offered to give him something that's hidden and protected in Godric's Hollow. Not necessarily a founders' object. Lily and James were both working for the Order, and their jobs might be significant. Maybe they had research papers which Voldemort would have been interested in. Voldemort might have been tempted to spare her to get them (and get additional information about the research from her), but too arrogant to believe that he couldn't find the stuff and work it out himself as well. Or he could have decided that she was bluffing.

Interesting.... though I think you forgot one thing with your criteria of destroying a horcrux:
the protection

Hi,

Another point to consider is that you only have those two horcrux murders to base the theory upon. There are also the locket and the diary, which we know very little about, in terms of how they were made. Were they created when voldemort was in or out of power? Everyone in the wizarding world knows that Voldemort was responsible for numerous deaths. But there is no absolute victims list, so it could have been any of them. In Order of the phoenix, p. 158 Moody mentions Dorcas Meadows who was mudered by Voldemort himself. could she have been used for a horcrux? It was obviously not covered up.
Anyway, my point is that its a bit too far to assume that hiding the killer's identity has to be a recurring factor in a horcrux murder. But never the less, a very well written editorial. I have to admit I can't offer any wholesome theory as to why Lily was offered her life so many times.

I was under the the impression that Voldemort stole the locket from Hepzibah Smith aswell as the Cup, He hardly had to murder anyone to get the diary as it was already his, bought in a shop on Vauxall Road in London. I also assume one does not have to make the Horcrux immediately after a murder, so far we know Voldemort has murdered,

1. The 3 Riddles (Father plus his Grandparents)
2. Hepzibah Smith
3. Dorcas Meadows
4. James Potter
5. Lily Potter
6. Frank Byrce
7. Amelia Bones

I am thinking he could have made 4 horcruxes before we even get to Dorcas Meadows, which are the Diary, the Ring, the Locket and the Cup.

I have to admit, I'm completely intrigued by the Pettigrew connection.

I think you've taken some leaps of faith that I can't necessarily agree with just yet, but this editorial is the first to get me thinking about new possibilities in a long while.

In short, I can't rule out the Snape-Lily connection as I think they did, in fact, have some sort of friendship. But, I think we have been dealt a VERY solid Red Herring. This whole time we've been screaming "SNAPE," we've missed the clues that suggest that Pettigrew has had more to do with the Lily than we originally thought. I mean, think about it. When Voldemort "died" that night in Godric's Hollow, who retrieved his wand? Perhaps the same person who returned it to Voldemort and later used it to kill Cedric that fateful night.

But what really strikes me as a HUGE clue in support of your theory is Dumbledore's now famous "gleam of triumph" when he learns that Harry's blood was used to resurrect Voldemort. But, lets think about this-- What good could come of Harry sharing blood with Voldemort? After all, it more or less broke down the protection that Lily's sacrifice had bestowed upon Harry. The truth is, I think JKR has distracted us once again. I think Dumbledore's gleam of triumph had nothing to do with Harry's blood and everything to do with Wormtails--the only OTHERperson whose blood now flows through Voldemort's veins.

What does this mean? Well, first and foremost, it means that Pettigrew may have inadvertantly passed on his Life Debt to Voldemort.

Think about how perfect this is---the use of Harry's blood in Voldemort's rebirth broke down the ancient protection Lily gave Harry (ie: Voldemort could now "touch" Harry)--but it was REPLACED with another ancient protection that Voldemort knew nothing about---the Life Debt Wormtail owes Harry.

When the time comes for Voldemort to murder Harry, will he be able to? Will the Avada Kadavra bounce right off of him just as it did when he was a baby?

I think this would be a fantastic plot twist and would support the Pettigrew-Lily connection (whatever that connection may be).

Nice editorial, very well written.

However, I am not sure that Voldemort would solely want to keep Liliy alive on the basis of someone to blame the murders on.

Whoever said that anyone who knew Lily would know she'd never be capable of such a thing, giving reasonable doubt to believe the memory charm.

Also, when Voldemort committed the murders of The Riddles and Hepzibah Smith he was still a boy and still learning the ways of the Dark Arts. It's my belief that when Voldemort was at his strongest, he wouldn't have offered Lily so many chances for her life to just pin the blame on her. I don't think Voldemort would have been all that bothered about himself being given the blame or not, because he couldn't be touched (or so he thought).

Great editorial! It's the first well-grounded explanation for Voldermort sparing Lily.


So I would think it would go something like this: Peter took Voldemort to their hiding place--this places Peter at the scene. Voldemort's intention was to kill James and Harry, and make it look like Peter had murdered them in a jealous rage, to be with Lily. It is consistent with this plan that Lily would not be killed, because Peter would have no motivation to kill her. Voldemort would then place a Memory Charm on both Peter and Lily.

Oh, the evilness of making it look like Peter murdered for love...


Wherever you say "Peter" I read "Snape".
Oh, this is brilliant and explains everything!
It would explain why Dumbledore trusts Snape: Voldy wanted to charge him with the crime.
It would explain why Lily was supposed to be spared: Snape kills for love.
I think we 're on to something here!

Good editorial - gets people theorizing all over again... love it!:love:

You've put together a good theory but i don't agree with most of it. Others on this thread have already raised some excellent points... (credit to all who i may or may not mention)

1. On the covered up death issue, i agree with people who have said that he needed to cover them up as he was a schoolboy/employer who essentially wanted to keep out of sight. It makes sense, as when his reputation as Lord Voldemort grows, he makes no attempt to cover up any death. If anything he does the opposite, as mentioned before, using the Dark Mark.

2. As for Lily being more useful in death, i disagree. People have been raving about how amazing she was, how talented, how smart, how funny, how well-liked etc, etc... surely a witch as incredible as this, who has defied the Dark Lord thrice, would be better aiding the good side alive? The girl's handwriting in the potions book may very well be hers, and if we are to believe that she and Snape had a relationship (friends or otherwise), surely it would make sense for Snape to only like and respect her if she is as good as him, at least in potions? And we've seen how fantastic a wizard he is - logic potions in first book, making Wolfsbane potion etc, etc..

I think her magic from beyond the grave, in providing Harry with protection, is of the same sort of magic as Harry's ability to love. If we put a name to it, I think it would be 'A mother's love for her child'.

3. In the first book, when Vernon hears people muttering about Voldemort's downfall, people whisper about the Potters as if they were known in some sense, if not very well known. I believe the Potters worked in the ministry, one maybe as an unspeakable and one maybe as an Auror. I could, of course, be completely wrong! :D

4. I don't believe Voldemort had any plans to let Lily live at all. People have said he may have wanted her for her potion making skills and/or other wizardry accomplishments, but why would he want Lily when she has pretty much declared she's a true Gryffindor? And when Voldemort has people like Snape (i'm sure he's not the only one)?

I think that maybe, when Voldemort rushed in to the room that night, he first just rushed forward to get a good look at the so-called 'Chosen One' who would bring him down... Was he (Harry) special? Did he look any different to the thousand other babies he'd seen? I can imagine Voldemort looking down at baby Harry with curiosity, hatred and maybe even a little fear. And then he would notice the hysterical Lily doing the last thing she could possibly do to save her baby - beg. He wouldn't give her a seconds' thought as he gets rid of her but instead would mentally start kicking himself for being stupid/scared enough to believe some stupid prophecy saying this BABY would kill him, the greatest wizard of all time....

To answer some posts....

Sriharish post #17 (and others)
I believe Voldemort and Wormtail were definately at Godrics Hollow on the night. I think the timeline would disallow Regulus to be there (need to check this), and Snape himself states where he was...
"You ask where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he ordered me to be, at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, because he wished me to spy upon Albus Dumbledore"
Pg 31-32, Spinner's End, HBP
I don't think he would have a reason to lie about this. I think Dumbledore would keep him there to keep an eye on him and I don't think Snape knew what Voldemort was going to do until he heard from other people what had happened.

CrooshanksG post #21
Myrtle was murdered by the Basilisk, not by Voldemort directly so I don't think it would count for horcruxes.

Wimsey post #24
Voldemort's offspring! Urrrgg! :no:*shudders*

Wow. That's an awesome editorial and it brings up a really good point, although I'm still partial to the idea that Snape loved Lily.

Although I'm not sure Voldemort would feel a need to cover up the death of Harry. For one thing, that would turn Harry into a bit of an example to all of the people on the good side who knew the prophecy - it would say, oh, look, here's your prophecied hero, and I killed him. On the other hand, it would be terribly sadistic and cruel to blame Lily for the death of her husband and son, which I'm sure Voldy'd love to do.

Why Voldemort would blame Lily?
Maybe cause he didn't want anyone to link this murder to him. A thorough investigation of the Potter murder would probably link Voldemort to the prophecy and someone might even get close to finding out about horcruxes
I still don't see why Voldemort decided to kill Lily anyway, but that might just be because otherwise, there wouldnt be any HPbooks at all :p

Good theory, and you're probably right. There really doesn't seem to be any other good reason for Voldemort to spare a 22-year-old Muggle-born, as his objective is to get rid of non-purebloods and there's no way anyone as young as Lily was high up enough anywhere- in the Order or the Ministry- to be an especially useful servant, given the really talented Death Eaters he has (think Snape). And you're absolutely right, the pattern is theere. That makes one wonder what object was at Godric's Hollow. I think we can bet, at any rate, that it belonged to Gryffindor.

For all those who think that everyone close to the Potters would realise that Lily didn't do it, they believed that Sirius was a Death Eater, so why not Lily? And then there's Hokey. Technically, it should be impossible for a house elf to do anythink without her mistress's permission, but the ministry was convinced that she did it, so framing Lily would have been quite easily fr Voldemort.

As much as I like this theory, I still think that the Potters' jobs will be highly signficant. Why else have they been kept from us this long?

Just kidding, by the way, about the Roger Davies thing. I was kind of hoping some one would think I was serious...

Anyway, GREAT deduction!!! That is the most viable theory,I think to any I have heard regarding Lily. It's like the perfect solution to Occham's Razor. Way to go.

IIt's possible that Lily put up a better fight than we think. That Voldemort had trouble stunning her, or putting an Imperius Curse or Memory Charm on her. But he still wanted her alive for some reason.

The problem with this idea is that we read Harry's memories (old though they are) of this, and there is no indication of anything like this.


Maybe she didn't just fight with her wand, but offered to do something for Voldemort if he spared her son (most mothers would do that). Or offered to give him something that's hidden and protected in Godric's Hollow.

Again, we heard the exchange. We hear it going back to James telling them to flee. And that simply is not there.


The real problem with many of these ideas is that it is only backstory. What would it tell us about any other current outstanding questions? There are explanations for Voldemort's offer that address other outstanding questions: Occam says favor those!

I think that a few people are missing the significance of the article--which was very well written.
The editorial clearly states that there had to be several criteria involved for Voldy to kill/make a Horcrux. Whenever Voldy needed to MAKE a horcrux, he would put these criteria into play--1. the object, 2. significant death, 3. Unfair blame, 4. Location, and 5. Method of destruction. And these 5 criteria were ONLY for the purpose of covering-up his Horcrux creations, which he did not want anyone to discover.

Frank Bryce's death occurred because he(Frank) happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time--there was nothing trophyish(for lack of a better word) about the killing. Therefore, his death does not fit the 5 criteria for making a Horcrux, but still demonstrates Voldy's ability to kill insignificantly.

I think the author did a great job in proving that in order for Voldy to kill/make his horcrux, the person's death was crucial for his and only his personal gain.

Personally, I don't agree with the main crux of the editorial for a simple reason: I don't see Voldemort at that point caring who people believed killed the Potters, I'm pretty sure most wizards would have still blamed him regardless. I also have to say I think that one point the editorialist uses, that Lilly was in her twenties, is inaccurate. If you follow the timeline created in the books, I'm more inclined to believe that Lily, the Marauders, and Snape were all 35 or 36 when the Potters were killed. According to Remus' story of his entrance to Hogwarts, he got to come to school because Dumbledore had become headmaster. We know from McGonagall, that that was 39 years ago in December from the time of OOTP. Assuming that Remus was admitted in Dumbledore's first full term as Headmaster, that would make that 39 years prior to HBP. Since students have to be 11 to enter Hogwarts, that means Remus must be 50. Lily and James were killed when Harry was 1, and he is now 16, so 15 years have past. 15 from 50 is 35.

I like the editorial, which put a lot of thought into what we know of the horcruxes, but I still believe Snape was involved, and that Lilly was to be spared at his request.

One thing that has never been directly addressed in the books (yet) is why Voldemort has kept Snape alive for so long. Voldy doesn't trust him at all, clearly, based on his having Pettigrew spy on Snape at home, and believing Snape to have left him forever at his return. The only real reason is the Voldemort realizes what we should all realize, that Snape is one of the most powerful wizards alive, and that if he can be kept in check, he's worth keeping alive for whatever purpose you cn get from him. Sort of like Irina Derevko in Alias.

Also, as merciless as Voldemort is, he can't get the kind of following that he has merely by ruling with a stick - he has to have carrots as well. Whe Voldemort was faced with this shrewd young wizard, competent at occlumency and adept at potion making (I get the feeling that Voldemort has always found potion-making to be beneath him, and has probably farmed it out) who suddenly knew the secret of his downfall, Snape would be in quite a good position to politely bargain.

I don't think Snape and Lily were ever romantically involved. I dooubt they were even good friends. But I think they shared potions lessons together, and that as Snape got to know her better, saw her as more than just a mudblood, and respected her more, he fell in love for the one and only time in his life. I don't think he would've dared mention it, as shy and unsocial as he was, and with his pure-blood-obsessed crowd of "friends." But at the same time, I think that maybe Lily wrote "this book is the property of the Half-Blood Prince," in the back of the book as a pointed reminder to Snape to remember that he didn't want anything to do with purity, and that such things were nonsense anyway.

We saw Snape's worst memory for a reason, and we know it wasn't the only time that James picked on him, so I'm sure that the x-factor that made it "worst" was Lily, and Snapes reaction to her, which lost him one of his only friends, his only love, and with it, his identity as the Half-Blood Prince. I imagine that Snape would ask for her to be spared, a twisted way to try to repay her actions years before by the lake, and that, as her life was insignificant to him, Voldemort would comply in order to appease his new, young, talented follower. But it also makes sense that, when she became too troublesome, Voldemort would decided that it wasn't worth the trouble.

Personally, I find it interesting that there were at least fifteen months between the prophecy and the Potter murders. We know that it was only about a week between the fidelius charm and the betrayal, so what was going on for the rest of that time? With no evidence to support me, I think that Snape turned to Dumbledore once he'd relayed the prophecy, and then realized the action that would come next. As a spy, I think Snape helped to keep Voldemort off of their scent, until they finally chose Peter as the secret-keeper, and spent their last week underground.

The editorial is pretty... what do i say um....... Controversial. The idea is very Devilish but we simply overlook one fact, Voldemort isn't dumb but he does miscalculate, (as he did by killing Lilly and the killing curse rebounding on him). Everyone important like Dumbledore, Cornelius Fudge and even the Order members knew that Voldemort was after the Potters( Jo mentions this in POA), so its obvious that Voldemort was aware that his prey was hiding under protection(fidelius charm) for which he recruited Pettigrew
Though the idea is very interesting, i wanted to give this a little twist:
What if Voldemort wanted to keep Lilly alive because he wanted to make a Horcrux out of her! Nagini is alive and he made her a Horcrux, could it be that he always intended to make his last horcrux so significant that he always wanted to use a living piece of flesh?




But at the same time, I think that maybe Lily wrote "this book is the property of the Half-Blood Prince," in the back of the book as a pointed reminder to Snape to remember that he didn't want anything to do with purity, and that such things were nonsense anyway.



How do we know that? Harry said that the writing was spiky and resembled the same writing that he found inside the textbook. its too much of a long shot

**** u gys r all soooo rong!!!1!!

Lily luved remus and evry1 nos that!1!! u gys suk!1!!!!

This editrial is sooooooo bad, he killd lily becose lily wudnt join the de! he was just tesing her!!!1!!!!!1!!!!!!!!


LOL naah, I'm kidding.

My sister actually wrote this editorial, she was so excited when it got put up. We always discuss Harry theories together (especially when Uncle Roger comes to visit ;) ), and she's gonna come and reply and kinda explain to some things people have said/asked, but for now I'll give it a shot because.

Lily and James were definatly 22 when they died. Same year as Snape, JKR said that he was 34 in POA. Makes then 21 when they had Harry, 22 when they died, assuming that their birthdays were after Halloween, but it doesn't matter regardless, around 22 when they died max 23.

It doesn't really matter if there was any Lily and Snape/Pettigrew links, unless you want to say that's why Voldemort didn't kill her, but Steph did have a go at that in her ed, Voldemort honestly doesn't care about that, he would have just stunned her and taken her off (and don't say that Lily was a better dueller than Voldemort, because if you honestly think that you've been reading way too much fanfiction). In Harry's dementor memories, we only hear her pleading for her life, chances are he disarmed her in a duel before she had to resort to pleading.

Someone said something about the whole Dumbledore gleam, and Steph is actually writing and editorial about that too. She'll be on in a bit to look, reply and stuff so I'll let her.

Voldemort could have easily used her wand to AK Harry and blame it on Lily, or he could have used his own and just fired on off at a wall or something to incriminate her wand. We've only seen that one spell in GoF, and that only saw the last spell, not the ones before. Saying that it could be more that one is a bit of a grasp onto nothing.

Lots of people are saying stuff that is really irrelevant, like why did Voldemort keep Snape alive and what about the protection around the horcrux (no offence to those who have said it). Isn't it clear that he needed Snape as a spy on Dumbledore? And the protection around the horcruxes is made after the horcrux is, it's not like they are really related. Does it matter if it was a ring, locket or cup in the bottom of that basin?

It's just irrelevant people.

Okay, bye bye, bored now, Steph's coming on in a bit!

Georgie xoxo

Hello all!

Thankyou for your comments.

Magiclantern, Quidagais.......
I think JKR didn't tell Emerson this was why Voldemort offered to spare her during that interview because we were supposed to figure it out ourselves... it's not like we only had the information about how one horcrux was created... we got two. We also know for a fact that Voldemort was intending to make a horcrux that night.... I might be wrong but it fits a lot better than Voldmort feeling sorry for someone who liked her. JKR purposely didn't tell us a lot in that interview that we've since deduced.

CrookshanksG, ptrut12345, dkwells...
Yes, those close to Lily wouldn't have thought she'd have done it. If they believed she did it, it would have completely rocked the Order too, come to think of it. Fortunately, Dumbeldore was much cleverer and would have suspected Voldemort, but once Harry was dead, the only one (according to the prophecy) that could vanquish him would be gone - this what Voldemort wanted....

Neondisease...
Yes they were famous, but not that famous. Lucuis Malfoy, or Barty Crouch type of famous maybe. When people were talking about them in the first chapter of PS/SS they refered to, 'their son, Harry'. I don't doubt their names were known, they were Hogwarts Heads, but I don't think they were celebrities either, unless their professions and the upcoming future revelation about Lily is of huge magnitude.

Fuzzypatronus, limi, Wimsey, blessed dragon, enchantress, nman........
Many people commented that Voldemort was no longer trying to hide that he was a murder by this stage; however, he WAS creating a horcrux, and the horcruxes needed to be concealed as best they could to safeguard them, if Voldemort wasn't tied to the scence it's a lot harder to decipher that that was when he created a horcrux.

wannogoballwithme.....
I am not suggesting that Voldemort is stupid, just trying to understand his actions and piece together what we don't know by looking for patterns within what we do know. I'm not saying I'm right on this, I think I am though :) I'm not an English Literature student who knows that this and that happened also in Shakespere, Chaucer or whatever, I'm an Engineering student... this is what sequence and series mathematics is all about... Science is all speculation.... it's how I've been trained to think anyway....

Acciohorcrux, dumbledoresman77..........
As for the upcoming revelation about Lily, it can still be huge and not related to why Voldemort offered to spare her and how she was basically a scrapegoat. I have a thoery on this and I actually wrote it at the end of the editorial but they edited it off; my theory is that she was pregnant. We know that she was skilled and magical and everything but the book is about Harry, and if she was pregnant it makes it even more personal..... (I doubt I'm right on this one but it's the best I can think of)

Idabomb333, Wimsey, Leana.......
Yes, Voldemort did end up killing her, even when he planned not too. He didn't stun her or elsewise because a) she could have defended herself or b) by this stage he was annoyed, it was taking longer than he expected and she didn't move, she was making noise and surely there'd have been secrecy sensors alerting Dumbledore?, chances are that he wanted it all done and finished quickly, so he changed his mind and decided to kill her instead, yes, he may now be linked to their deaths but nobody knew about the horcruxes so on the spot the change of plans didn't indicate itself asd detrimental.

Maggie....
Thankyou for your comments. You made an excellent point about how Pettigrew's life debt is part of Voldemort. I love this theory, and a couple of weeks ago finished writing an editorial on this. I don't know if it's going to get posted, or if so how long it will take (I wrote this one ages ago...) but owl me your email address (and anyone else who is interested in this) and I can send you my ideas and we could collaborate if you want.

Finally, redbluemel, yes Roger Davies is my uncle lol. It's how I know my theory is right.

Thankyou all, and many thanks to Sara for editing and posting it up for me.

Very nice editorial, and it definitely brought up some points I hadn't thought of before. I have to admit though that I wasn't really sold on the whole *framing Lily* strategy. And after reading the other intriguing posts about Pettigrew and Snape, I'm even more wary of the idea. I'm not sure that Lily's chances to live had anything to do with Voldemort framing someone. There have been some excellent points already made here (e.g. Voldemort could have just stunned Lily and Memory Charmed her later; Lily carrying out the murder would have been unbelievable). However, a couple questions I have about the Pettigrew/Lily connection are these:

1. If LV wanted to frame Pettigrew for killing in a jealous rage, the logical thing would be for him to allow Lily to survive. After all, why would Pettigrew kill the object of his desires? Obviously, he did not allow Lily to survive in the end, which is not surprising because she was Muggle-born. What could be so special about Lily that LV could overlook her Muggle heritage and give her so many chances to survive? If Voldemort was going to frame Pettigrew what made him change his mind and decide to kill Lily (therefore making Pettigrew's motive unbelievable)? I imagine that LV could have gotten to Harry no matter how many people stood in his way, so it's not like he HAD to kill Lily in order to get to Harry.

2. If LV wanted to frame Pettigrew, this would not do well for LV since Pettigrew is a perfect Order spy. It's true that Pettigrew is most likely not a skilled Occlumens, but at this point no one suspects him of anything and he was able to get off scott free for over 12 years. Why would LV go out of his way to eliminate a ready-made spy?

I think one of the burning questions that remains is why LV changed his mind about killing Lily halfway through their confrontation. The fact that Lily is Muggle-born is reason enough for LV to kill her yet he gives her many chances to live. Nowhere in their conversation does LV ask Lily for her help or to join the Dark side, so it's not like Lily was killed because she refused one last request from Voledemort. If LV planned to get to Harry at all costs, why not just kill James and Lily straightaway and not bother with trying to protect Lily?

Just some random thoughts. I certainly have no good explanation for how the events played out....these are just other questions I've been thinking about.

Well if you know Roger, you must know all about Cho and Fleur, wouldn't you:D

I just now read the editorial and LOVED IT!! I love your theory on why he would have spared Lily, and I think it very possible. I still think we need to know if LV was alone that night at Godric's Hollow, because I'm curious about how DD knew so much about the events that occurred. But, I agree with you that he wouldn't want to use Lily. Excellent, Excellent!! :tu:

Sorry, but I'm absolutely sure, that lily was not supposed to be the scapegoat. And that because of two reasons:

1. As Dumbledore clearly states, it was absolutely necessary, that every possible investigator was ready to believe, that the blamed person must be the one, who did the deed. In the case of morfin, everybody knew, that he hated the Riddles and that he had attacked them before. In the case of Hokey, everybody was ready to believe, that she could have made a mistake. She was old and she was <just> a house-Elf. Dumbledore says, that any Investigator, who would have digged further, had broken the memory charm and found out the truth. In lily's case, of course, they would have asked questions. A famous couple with a Newborn. Why shoul she kill her family. And so they would have broken the memory charm.

2. If Voldemort had wanted her as a scapegoat, he would have put a memory charm on lily instead of killing her.

I honestly can't recall where I read this, but it has been suggested that Voldemort only kills people himself when its in his interest to do so. He doesn't kill for fun, pleasure, reward or even vengence. He leaves that dirty work to his minions.

I think he killed James in an overmatched duel as Voldemort was making his way up the stairs - James was literally in his way. Lily, on the other hand was not a threat - she did not attempt to duel/fight with him. She merely pleaded for her son's life. She was, in other words, more like an annoying gnat that a bear. He killed her for the same reason we swat at a mosquito who lands on our arm: reflex. I think this makes the murder even more horrible.

Subconciously, I agree with the theory that Lily's plea for her son's life resonated somewhere deep (well, completely subterranian!) in Voldemort - here was another mother williing to die for her son -- just like his did. That is, Lily didn't care to be kept alive any more than Merope. I could see this as a potential trip-wire to an Avada Kadavra.

Personally, I find it interesting that there were at least fifteen months between the prophecy and the Potter murders. We know that it was only about a week between the fidelius charm and the betrayal, so what was going on for the rest of that time?

Oh, Dawson: this has been MY number one question for ages. Clearly, Peter knew where James & Lily were long before he became the SK.. They didn't go into deep hiding but a mere week before they were killed! Voldemort could have gotten to them at any time before then!

In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape "hastened" to tell Voldemort about the prophecy he heard. He also tells Harry that Voldemort "leapt" into action upon hearing the prophecy! (Well, at least after confirming that the boy had been born). The time frames between these two events do not Jibe. I don't call moving to action nearly a year and half after hearing this juicy bit of news "leaping"!!

The ONLY idea that suggests itself as a possible explanation is that the Potter's THIRD defeat of Voldemort happened just as they went into hiding. Meaning, that it wasn't until then that Voldemort was sure they were the ones to go after.

What do you all think?

Very good! I have been wondering the same thing for quite a while. By the way, the death of Moaning Myrtle also fits the pattern to some extent, since Hagrid was blamed for it. (Does Voldemort have something of hers, by any chance?) I wonder if her death was also used to make a Horcrux, or if the fact that she was actually killed by the basilisk made it unsuitable for the purpose.

While I agree that Voldemort, at the time of Lily's death, didn't need to conceal his identity for the purposes of maintaining some sort of cover, it seems to me that repeating the pattern of his earliest murders might have appealed to Voldemort. We've seen that he has a perverse kind of sentimental streak. Having a Muggleborn blamed for the murder that assured his immortality would probably appeal to his sick sense of humor also.

It's possible that Voldemort did try to put a Memory Charm or Stunning Spell on Lily, but that she fought them off. A Shield Charm would have been effective against either of these, and if the conflicting spells were being used nonverbally, there would have been nothing for Harry to overhear and remember. However, if we believe false Moody, there's no blocking Avada Kedavra. It could be that Lily fought off everything else that Voldemort threw at her and finally he realized that he would have to kill her to get to Harry.

On the other hand, if Voldemort had succeeded, how could he have blamed James's death on Lily without using her wand?

I honestly can't recall where I read this, but it has been suggested that Voldemort only kills people himself when its in his interest to do so. He doesn't kill for fun, pleasure, reward or even vengence. He leaves that dirty work to his minions.

I think he killed James in an overmatched duel as Voldemort was making his way up the stairs - James was literally in his way. Lily, on the other hand was not a threat - she did not attempt to duel/fight with him. She merely pleaded for her son's life. She was, in other words, more like an annoying gnat that a bear. He killed her for the same reason we swat at a mosquito who lands on our arm: reflex. I think this makes the murder even more horrible.

Subconciously, I agree with the theory that Lily's plea for her son's life resonated somewhere deep (well, completely subterranian!) in Voldemort - here was another mother williing to die for her son -- just like his did. That is, Lily didn't care to be kept alive any more than Merope. I could see this as a potential trip-wire to an Avada Kadavra.



Oh, Dawson: this has been MY number one question for ages. Clearly, Peter knew where James & Lily were long before he became the SK.. They didn't go into deep hiding but a mere week before they were killed! Voldemort could have gotten to them at any time before then!

In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape "hastened" to tell Voldemort about the prophecy he heard. He also tells Harry that Voldemort "leapt" into action upon hearing the prophecy! (Well, at least after confirming that the boy had been born). The time frames between these two events do not Jibe. I don't call moving to action nearly a year and half after hearing this juicy bit of news "leaping"!!

The ONLY idea that suggests itself as a possible explanation is that the Potter's THIRD defeat of Voldemort happened just as they went into hiding. Meaning, that it wasn't until then that Voldemort was sure they were the ones to go after.

What do you all think?

yes that is really good, thats a really good theory. You should write an editorial on that

On the other hand, if Voldemort had succeeded, how could he have blamed James's death on Lily without using her wand?

I'm sure that he could have disarmed her, or when he was doing a memory charm, taken her wand and just AKed a wall. I'm sure even if the curse didn't kill, it would show up on that last spell thing.

A thought: in GoF, no sign of the AK that hit Harry came out of Voldemort's wand. He may have even then used Lily's? Killing her family then herself could act as a cover. They would think she was under the imperious (it happened to the guy who was working in the muggle Prime Minister's office, HBP 1), and though Voldemort would be blamed, it wouldn't be linked directly back to him. It would also have saved Pettigrew, they could have easily made it look as if Sirius was the Secret Keeper in this situation also.

Hello again,

I want to thank everyone who came up with the ideas that the plans for that Halloween night also concerned Sirius. I think it’s obvious that Peter didn’t have the brains to think of it on the spot; I think it was in the plan all along to cover Pettigrew as a spy, this has really got me thinking and I want to research this now. I read a long time ago, I think it was Dan’s theories, that thought that Lucius Malfoy and Fudge worked on that coverup, I didn’t believe it at the time, but it is highly plausible that there was a plan was to frame Siruis all along, just not by them; the reason why is interesting to me, it might be just due to his being a pureblood traitor and all that but maybe this has a bit to do with Snape’s hatred and trying to bully him in OOTP, Snape is a DE whether morally good or not, and he really is bitterly cruel to Neville when he knows Neville’s hardships… it’s all related but I can’t put my finger on it yet. There is definitely more to the story of the Longbottoms and their torture by the Death Eaters, maybe it was just because it was thought that they knew where Voldemort was, I don’t know….

Alter joe; Maybe it isn’t so unforeseeable to think Lily might have done it; she was a Muggleborn and Voldemort is of the belief that Muggleborns are unsatisfactory – many people in the Wizarding world e.g. Blacks, Malfoys are of that belief too. Many ministry members may have been subject to a prejudice against muggleborns, thus convicted her without much research………………

The time delay before Voldemort eventally killed Harry; there can be many explanations… he had more horcruxes to create before his final one, he had other plans to do, he wasn’t sure which boy, they were hiding using other spells, maybe they were at Hogwarts or the then Order Headquarters… I think perhaps could have something to do with the Longbottoms torture too…. But Voldemort knew he was going after Harry specifically a while before he did it….. It became clear which boy.... maybe he did take a look at Neville, I don't know.......

Anyway, I believe I’m right on this Lily theory, and it is certainly debatable, I am 90% sure though that he wanted to blame Lily either way with the charm, imperiused or suicide – Georgie is absolutely right, there was no sign that baby Harry’s Avada Kedavra came out of Voldemort’s wand, just a few screams i think, nothing was regonised as an Avada Kedavra and more importantly there was no ghost of Voldemort which there should have been, he either wanted to memory charm Lily or kill her later, he used Lily’s wand when he tried AKing Harry, but his own to kill Lily, thankyou Prori Incantatem – it was more than just symbolic, yay!

But the main point of this editorial for me was to find out what everyone else thinks about when Voldemort may have made his other horcruxes, and where we can link a possible horcrux from what we’ve read so far, given he likes this system of the memory charm blame………..

Who did he personally kill?
Who is in Azkaban who shouldn’t be?
Who has been effected by memory charms, i.e. who did we meet in St Mungoes? The Hogs Head? Diagon and Knockturn Alleys?

We know that Amelia Bones and Emmaline Vance are supposedly dead. The concept of an eighth horcrux is likely, did he create one then, from whom and what object would he have had acess to? Something from the ministry? If Pettigrew was at Godrics Hollow that night and took the wand, did he also take the horcrux object?

Any ideas?

Sister, you = homo.

naAH i kid i kid.

Great Article! The only person that we know that Volde killed personally was uttered by Moody in OOTP- when he gives Harry the picture of the original order (sorry, I don't have the page numbers)- Dorcas Meadowes. I have always wanted to know more from that one statement, why was she so important that Volde had to kill her personally?

I like the pattern you picked up, and Rowling likes patterns, I think this is very plausible.

This has got to be the most reasonable explaination of that night at GH that I have read.

It makes percect sense to me that Lily would have been blamed for Harry's death. I'm sure Voldemort could have easily made it seem like Lily was imperioused, and killed James while he was trying to protect Harry

Good but just one thing... i'm sure that it's been posted but oh well don't feel like reading all the posts.

Why would Voldemort want hide what he'd done? He only blamed the first murders on convenient bystanders because his reputation was still in tact amongst the less questionable of the wizarding community... Now, though, it isn't a big secret that he kills people... especially people that have thrice defied him.

It's a possibility though, and well written with good support.

ShannonB484 - Voldemort wanted to hide the murders' because it conceals the horcrux better when noone thought he did it in the first place. Given you need to kill someone before you make a horcrux, by Voldmeort not being known to have killed at that time, its a lot harder for anyone to discover that Voldemort made a horcrux from the murder he supposedly didn't commit, thus harder to know he had horcruxes, know what it is and where it is, it makes it harder to kill him, almost foolproof......

Dorcas Meadows.....
Maybe she was a ravenclaw because they are meant to 'have their day'. Maybe she was a significant death.... hmmm....
I think she was mentioned somewhere other than in that photo too....

Good, insightful read, Stephanie.

I like the conglomeration of ideas here, especially the theory expanding on the editorial that Pettigrew and Lily were to be objects of the memory charm in the form of a tragic love triangle. Lily would “remember” thwarting Pettigrew’s advances (she must still be seen as respectable to remain in character) and trying to stop him from breaking into her home to kill James and Harry, whom Pettigrew would’ve seen as obstacles to Lily’s love. In return, Pettigrew would “remember” his obsessive love for Lily and growing jealous of James, starting way back at Hogwarts. Or, Voldemort may have planned to leave Lily with the memories of Pettigrew murdering James and Harry, and then would have killed Pettigrew as a way to eliminate an accomplice who knew too much of Voldemort’s original motive to be allowed free.

Such a plan would allow Voldemort to secure his future, complete his secret horcruxes, destroy a few more forces for good against him, and free Lily from familial obligations. The latter would be a reward to Snape, who probably held a very special place in his heart for Lily, for bring Voldemort the prophecy in the first place. However, Lily defied him and was killed. So, he updated his plans to place a memory charm on Pettigrew which would reveal tragically complete consequences, even to the object of his obsession. Now, everyone’s dead except for Harry and Pettigrew, who lived to tell the tale.

This brings up another interesting point, though. If Pettigrew were there in the above scenario, he must’ve told someone about it, probably Snape, who then told Dumbledore in a remorseful confession (how else would we know all of the details of what happened there that night?). If so, then Snape and Dumbledore would’ve known that Pettigrew was alive and the events of PoA would’ve transpired much differently. More likely, Snape was the one with Voldemort on that fateful night and was to be the just as realistic – and just as unwitting – object of a memory charm as Pettigrew. After Snape escaped, Pettigrew could’ve arrived on the horrid scene, found Voldemort’s wand, and as quickly left to formulate his own elaborate escape and cover-up for having betrayed the Potters’ hiding place.

I like it because it is simple, and I feel like the remaining mysteries are going to be solved by some straightline conclusions...no overly conveluted explanations.

This brings up another interesting point, though. If Pettigrew were there in the above scenario, he must’ve told someone about it, probably Snape, who then told Dumbledore in a remorseful confession (how else would we know all of the details of what happened there that night?). If so, then Snape and Dumbledore would’ve known that Pettigrew was alive and the events of PoA would’ve transpired much differently.
I don't know if Pettigrew would have had time to tell anyone much of anything, given that he had to be in "cover my tracks" mode. If the reason you think he might tell Snape is so that Snape could then tell Dumbledore, I don't see that as necessary. It seems to me that Peter as part of covering his tracks could have sent Dumbledore his own firsthand memory of the event he witnessed as part of his coverup scheme. Imagine Dumbledore looking at that in the Pensieve: that could be one way he could find out exactly what happened there, without suspecting Peter in the least as the betraying Secret Keeper. Peter's memory needn't have betrayed his full role, provided he leave out any incriminating parts.

On the other hand (your other suggestion), if Snape were there he could have done something similar and given Dumbledore a firsthand memory for his Pensieve, and maybe that's the basis of Dumbledore's trust. If that happened, then Snape lied at Spinner's End when he told Bella he was at Hogwarts when the Dark Lord fell. However, that couldn't have been true because if Snape had been there, Voldemort would have known it. Given that Snape claims to Bella, the Death Eaters, and Voldemort alike that he was at Hogwarts, he could not have been there that night (at least not openly).

i like it, very clever, but i think it was made clear that the potters were reasonably popular, atleast among adults who generally know more about whats going on than the students like Ron or Harry would, atleats in there earlier years when Hermione didnt subscribe to the daily prophet. I think the magical community would be more suspicious of Lily killing her family than they were of Morphin killing the Riddle's because he was already a convicted muggle
hater and had persecuted that family before. Voldemort also knew that the house elf would be judged poorly simply because it was a house elf.

the point Im trying to make is that all of Voldemort's previous frame-ups were really very convincing and simple in that the ppl he framed were already disliked and such.

Also Dumbledore would have looked into it and retrieved the real memory from Lily as soon as he could just like he did from Morphine and the house elf, rather quickly revealing the truth.

Great editorial. This editorial gives the idea, that blaming someone else for a murder is a necessary part for making a horcrux. It does fit with all murders which we know they were personally done by Voldemort:

1. Myrtle (blamed was Hagrid)
2. His Muggle-Father (blamed was Morfin)
3. Hepzibah Smith (blamed was Hookey).

Some of you think that the murder of Myrtle didn´t count, because at this time young Tom Riddle didn´t know how a horcrux is made. But I disagree. At this time Tom Riddle was already sixteen and he could already have killed his Father before the murder of Myrtle happened. When he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes he wore already the Ring of Slytherin and there is mentioned that when he asked Slughorn he was not the eldest of the students in Slughorns office. (page 463 british edition)
Also do some of you think that Myrtel was not murdered by Riddle directly because the Basilisk did it. But for me the Basilisk was only a tool to execute the murder on Riddle´s command. The difference between a murder is done by a wizard or be done by an magical creature is the fact, that a wizard (like a human) has his own mind and can make his own decission. An magical creature like a Basilisk is bound to serve the will of his master. It can´t follow his own mind. So practically the murder of Myrtle was done by Voldemort directly. In this way it also works in using the house elf Hookey in manipulating the elfs memory.
Furthermore I think the fact, that Tom Riddle asked Slughorn exactly about Horcruxes indicates that he already had known what the purpose of a horcrux is. He needed only some more details for performing a horcurx. May be that Myrtel was his first convenient possibility to perform the spell.
For me the only question is if it was possible for him to make a Horcrux some time after he killed his father with this specific murder, because this crime happened indeed before he could have known all about horcruxes.

I don't think that Voldemort could have used Lily's wand post hoc. If someone were to Prior Incatatum her wand, whatever it killed would come out of the wand (as demonstrated at the World Cup and in the graveyard). So, if her wand was to be used against her, he would have to aquire it before he started his murderous rampage. I do like the idea of the article, but the wand issue is a big sticking point for me.

As far as Myrtle being used for a Horcrux, I think it's completely plausable. Her murder maynot have been a result of nasty wandwork, but she was killed by Voldemort's monster at his summons.

I am curious to know how long after a murder someone can make a Horcrux. JK says that murder damages the soul (I don't think it's inherantly split after a muder). I would imagine that there's a period of time where the soul is damaged enough for a horcrux to be made. I mean, it seems a bit much to off someone, have some trinket ready, say another dark spell, and have your soul ripped up all while trying to evade capture for murder. I'm guessing that the murderer would have sometime, maybe not ages, but a bit to make a horcrux if the person decided to.

Great Editorial, but I disagree, on some parts anyway. I think that Voldemort wanted to make Lily chose herself, rather than her son, just as his own mother had done. Notice that he killed his Muggle relatives, but not his wizard ones. And he has shown resentment to the fact that his father left his mother. I believe that he is fighting against love, because he has been mostly hurt by the fact that his mother did not save herself even for him.
So when he arrived at Godric's Hollow he wanted not only to kill his
future enemy, but to destroy him in the most ultimate way he knew, by making his mother leave him. This was subconsious obviously.
It's just as Dumbledore has said "there are other ways to destroy a man".
Voldemort who doesn't understand this, would of course want to kill Harry as well.

Intriguing article.

I always thought Voldemort wanted her alive for the murder of Harry was for the pure torture of it. What worse can you do to a parent? I think he wanted to break her, for any (or all) of three reasons: 1) for the sheer pleasure of watching a Mudblood suffer (and then take her out), 2) retribution for the thrice defiance, 3) she had information that could prove useful.

But even there we run into why didn't he petrify her or something?

At this time Tom Riddle was already sixteen and he could already have killed his Father before the murder of Myrtle happened.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tom kill his father and grandparents in the summer of his sixteenth year?

That would be the summer after his fifth year at Hogwarts, and thus after he had killed Myrtle.

I think that Voldemort wanted to make Lily chose herself, rather than her son, just as his own mother had done. Notice that he killed his Muggle relatives, but not his wizard ones. And he has shown resentment to the fact that his father left his mother. I believe that he is fighting against love, because he has been mostly hurt by the fact that his mother did not save herself even for him.
So when he arrived at Godric's Hollow he wanted not only to kill his
future enemy, but to destroy him in the most ultimate way he knew, by making his mother leave him. This was subconsious obviously. This is interesting! I bet you are on to something.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tom kill his father and grandparents in the summer of his sixteenth year?

That would be the summer after his fifth year at Hogwarts, and thus after he had killed Myrtle.
@Volodymyr: Yes, I have reread CoS and HBP and have to admit that you are absolutely correct: He killed his father and grandparents in the summer of his 16th year (page 340 HBP british edition). The diary preserved the 16 year old memory of young Tom Riddle (page 335 CoS british edition). For that it is very likely that he was already 16 when he made this horcrux. Also we know that he was a prefect when he blamed Hagrid after the murder of Myrtle, so he had to be in the 5th year at Hogwarts at this time. Therefore that after the death of Myrtle he was afraid they could close the school and he had to go back to the orphanage, he surely killed Myrtle first, because in HBP we learn that he had left the orphanage before he killed his father.

What if Voldemort wanted Lily for another reason. At various times Dumbledore refers to Lily having procted Harry from the killing spell using some ancient and powerful magic. Dumbledore also mentions that despite Voldemort's craving for all things magic, he has never really bothered with this ancient banch of magic to Voldemort's own peril. What if it wasn't just love, but actually a different form of magic all together.

Consider this. Lily cast a protection spell or warding spell on Harry without the use of a wand or uttering a sound. Instead, it took the love in her heart and the use of her eyes -- those same eyes that Harry has inherited -- to protect Harry and reflect the spell at Voldemort.

The magic that comes to mind is Druid magic whick is replete with warding or protection spells. I can see Harry et. al. destroying the Horcruses and defeating Voldemort when Voldemort tries to kill someone that Harry is protecting becasue of another rebounding Avada Kedavra. As for the potential fatality, we have the usual suspects, plus a surprise, Snape (whom I will surmise, must aid Harry along the way to the climatic battle).

I agree with Wimsey on this. For Voldemort, the killing of Harry Potter was not like any other Horcrux related murders. It was not just about removing a threat. It is about removing the threat to his survival. He would not want Harry's death to be an anonymous one.

Voldemort would want the news of the death of his only nemesis to be known across the wizarding world. He is winning at this point, and the death of the one prophesised to be his vanquisher, at his hands, would be the ultimate victory.

There are much better reasons for why Lily would have been spared. What we see from the confrontation is that Voldemort does not use magic. In fact, neither of them does. Why doesn't Lily at least try to fight? Did she give up, and decide that it was useless to fight him, having seen her husband being killed? Very likely, but Lily doesn't seem the type to simply give up. After all, she and James did defy Voldemort thrice before.

The only reason she wouldn't actively defend herself would be because she couldn't use magic. Perhaps she had been crippled in some way, or had broken/lost her wand? I can't think of any other reason why she wouldn't try to defend herself and Harry. Initially, I thought that she might have done something to invoke the protection that prevented her from using magic, but Jo said in her TLC/MN interview that Lily did not know the consequences of standing in front of Harry.

There is also the fact that Voldemort didn't stun her, or attempt to harm her. He simply did not think that she would jump in front of a killing curse for another, even her son. He doesn't understand love. As some say, offering a choice to Lily to save herself and hand over her son to be murdered might have been some sort of twisted form of revenge on love, to prove his notion that love is not all-powerful.

Personally, I think that Voldemort's insistence on killing Harry first had more to do with the creation of a horcrux, rather than using Lily in some way. I'd say that whatever magic he had invoked to create a horcrux required the next spell he performed to be the killing curse. As he wanted to create the horcrux with Harry's death, he couldn't waste it on a mere 'mudblood'. He was also unable to use any other spell on her, because the next spell had to be the killing curse.

Why would Voldemort want to cover up the murder except to keep up his trend of doing that every other time he made a horcrux? Wouldn't by this point in time Voldemort already be killing all the time and everybody wanted him dead but his followers? I still think Snape was with voldemort the night he killed the potters and he asked voldemort not to kill her because he loved her. Good editorial though:tu:

Good editorial on a very interesting topic. Lately, though, I've wondered if the reason Voldemort considered sparing Lily wasn't an issue of magic or a matter of her being muggle-born or the Potters being famous. I wonder if it had something to do with the fact that Voldemort's mother chose to die and abandoned her son. I wonder if Voldemort wasn't hoping that Lily would take the same action and abandon her son to death to save herself. Just a theory, but it also fits into the prophecy with Harry "having power that the dark lord didn't know", maybe meaning that Harry was not only capable of love, but was also loved, while Voldemort was neither capable of love, nor did anyone else love him, at least as a child.
Something that JKR emphasizes more and more in her writing is that, yes, magic is obviously important in the story line, but especially with all the trips into Dumbledore's Pensieve and the one into Snape's, a person's emotions and what those emotions make them capable of (whether good or bad) can be crucial. I think Voldemort has some very serious family issues, and his treatment of Lily could possibly reflect that.

Hi all

I really like the concept about Voldemort wanting Lily to choose herself over her son; we know from HBP that 'just love' is the power Harry has that Voldmort doesn't. It fits well, except why he'd offer to spare her in the first place, unless the horcrux spell was already started...? But why would he start given he knew she was there, did he think she'd have run off and left the baby?? Why would he have began the horcrux spell? Unless he had plans for her; which most concur he did; either to frame her or use her talents....

It's all a circle.... I hope the book gets released soon 7/7/7.... it's gotta be.... please.... :)

I like your theory, but to me the Snape/Lilly thing makes most sense to me. YKW has never been shy about killing, I feel Snape will be vindicated, I think he protected Lilly (and helped her in potions).

check out Lady Lupins' most recent editorial on Spinner's End. She provides a similar through line that my fic does.. so of course I think she's spot on!

...I've wondered if the reason Voldemort considered sparing Lily wasn't an issue of magic or a matter of her being muggle-born or the Potters being famous. I wonder if it had something to do with the fact that Voldemort's mother chose to die and abandoned her son. I wonder if Voldemort wasn't hoping that Lily would take the same action and abandon her son to death to save herself. Just a theory, but it also fits into the prophecy with Harry "having power that the dark lord didn't know", maybe meaning that Harry was not only capable of love, but was also loved, while Voldemort was neither capable of love, nor did anyone else love him, at least as a child.
Something that JKR emphasizes more and more in her writing is that, yes, magic is obviously important in the story line, but especially with all the trips into Dumbledore's Pensieve and the one into Snape's, a person's emotions and what those emotions make them capable of (whether good or bad) can be crucial. I think Voldemort has some very serious family issues, and his treatment of Lily could possibly reflect that.

I was going to make a similar post! You beat me to it! ARG! LOL

Anywho... I, too, had the feeling that maybe part of the reasoning that Voldemort might've had for wanting to spare Lily was for some internal feeling that he has about mothers in general, regardless of if they're muggleborn or not. I've had this thought, especially, after reading HBP. We see how Voldemort feels about his father who abandoned him, but we never hear him speak of his mother in a harmful way. We find out the truth, through glimpses in the Pensieve in HBP, behind Voldemort's parents relationship. And from what we know thus far, only Dumbledore and Harry know the truth about that particular part of Voldemort's past. I've been wondering exactly what Voldemort would think if he found out the truth about his parents past. That could be a very powerful weapon for Harry when he meets Voldemort once more. If you think about it, if Voldemort knew the truth about what had happened between his mother and father, would he have turned out the way he did? (There's probably a 50/50 chance that he would've turned out the way he did. The line of Slytherin isn't a stableminded line.) Maybe he has glorified his mother in his mind? I dunno... His basis for all his Muggle hatred stems to his feelings toward his father who had abandoned him.

Anywho... I, too, had the feeling that maybe part of the reasoning that Voldemort might've had for wanting to spare Lily was for some internal feeling that he has about mothers in general, regardless of if they're muggleborn or not. I've had this thought, especially, after reading HBP. We see how Voldemort feels about his father who abandoned him, but we never hear him speak of his mother in a harmful way. We find out the truth, through glimpses in the Pensieve in HBP, behind Voldemort's parents relationship. And from what we know thus far, only Dumbledore and Harry know the truth about that particular part of Voldemort's past. I've been wondering exactly what Voldemort would think if he found out the truth about his parents past. That could be a very powerful weapon for Harry when he meets Voldemort once more. If you think about it, if Voldemort knew the truth about what had happened between his mother and father, would he have turned out the way he did? (There's probably a 50/50 chance that he would've turned out the way he did. The line of Slytherin isn't a stableminded line.) Maybe he has glorified his mother in his mind? I dunno... His basis for all his Muggle hatred stems to his feelings toward his father who had abandoned him.
Thank you Intothe Forest this is my point of view too. He has a lot of mommy and daddy issues which could have affected how he saw each side. Again your thought on the Pensieve could be more knowledgeable than you think.
One or two points i would like to make though first. I think all of us keep forgetting that the Potters, Lily and James,only truly became infamous after their tragic deaths. Think about it. All of might remember where we were on 9/11 we might all remember the lives lost or even what the building looked like with much more importance now. But did we ever really think about Iraq, Suddam, even the Twin Towers much on 9/10? I think not. Similarily Lily and James while they may have been well-known or liked among their friends and collegues did not strike much significance until the fall of Voldemort. Only then, in their death, did they become famous. Sorry if that was disturbing to any of you but it does make a point.

I am also one of the few who completely disagrees with the idea of Snape loving Lily and Voldemort sacrificing him for her sake. It's just not in Voldemorts personality to do any favours for anyone unless there's a big bonuus in it for him. It's just not in his personality to do favours for anyone full stop. So it's unlikely that Voldemort did it for Snape. It's definitely a mommy issue.

THe way i see it; Wormtail after breaking the Fidelus Charm for Voldemort was dragged to the house in Godric's Hollow and made carry the Horcrux item (whatever it is I am not going to speculate) all the while Wormtail has been told by Voldemort that he would be the lucky one to see his friends family tortured and killed all in graphic, mentally torturing detail.
Lily was given a choice simply because either she was beneath Voldemorts contempt. He was on a mission to make an important killing. James on the othr hand was a full blood traitor becuase he married a Mudblood and was standing ready to duel and willingly put himself into that position. He thought he could deul Voldemort. no way!
He may have already performed som form of pre-Horcrux spell that was just awaiting a death.
He may have thought she would stand aside becuse she was been given the option of life by the might Lord Voldemort (he is a narracist after all).
Also he could possibly see that his mother had died at his birth and the mommy issues were still affecting him. Perhaps seeing this cowering girl holding her baby and trying to fight against him struck a chord in him, his mother never did it but here she was protecting her baby.
Again the idea of trying to blame the deaths on her as proposed in this editorial are just as valid.

I totally agree with this editorial...though i think you could have gone a little bit further with your assumptions. I believe that Voldemort was going to make a Horcrux that night, and that Lily would be his "go to person" for the blame. But, what if a mistake was made? From the beginning, Harry has had this strong connection with Voldemort, which hasn't been completely explained. My theory is that, in his attempt to kill Harry, he accidentally made Harry into a Horcrux. Now I know this is weird, but we haven't really been told what you have to do to make a Horcrux (except for the fact that you have to murder someone). Well, Voldemort murdered someone, but because of some unknown, his killing spell didn't work, and made Harry into a Horcrux.

It's just a thought. But I LOVED your editorial.

:lol:

My theory is that, in his attempt to kill Harry, he accidentally made Harry into a Horcrux.


I've also had this same theory. We only know that murder is one of the requirements for making a horcrux, but we don't know exactly how one is made just yet. Of course, if Harry is a horcrux (which I hope, for his sake, that he is not) it will definately complicate things in Book 7. Even if it'll make for an interesting twist. :)

I've also had this same theory. We only know that murder is one of the requirements for making a horcrux, but we don't know exactly how one is made just yet. Of course, if Harry is a horcrux (which I hope, for his sake, that he is not) it will definately complicate things in Book 7. Even if it'll make for an interesting twist. :)
You two might be interested in this thread:

Assuming Harry or his scar is a Horcrux (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=92541)

Although I agree that anyone who knew Lily well would not believe she would kill her husband and son, she was Muggleborn. Slytherin's argument against allowing Muggleborns into Hogwarts was that he thought they were untrustworthy, and I suspect that many wizards who were not Death Eaters agreed with this opinion. Voldemort would have had the additional satisfaction of seeing a Muggleborn blamed for the killing that made him permanently immune to death or defeat.

It's the wand that is still the sticking point for me. Could Voldemort have found a way to alter a wand's "memory"?

I dont know why it seems strange to many that Lord Voldemort offered to spare Lily,
it seems to me that Lord Voldemort as a person has very efficient logic, he kills when he needs it, with no remorse, but it is not beyond him to spare a person, who does not stand in his way. Killing, torturing and cursing for him are means of achieving his goals, he is not a killing maniac, he deliberatly kills when it suits him, and Lily was not his goal.

I dont know why it seems strange to many that Lord Voldemort offered to spare Lily,
it seems to me that Lord Voldemort as a person has very efficient logic, he kills when he needs it, with no remorse, but it is not beyond him to spare a person, who does not stand in his way. Killing, torturing and cursing for him are means of achieving his goals, he is not a killing maniac, he deliberatly kills when it suits him, and Lily was not his goal.
We're interested in why because JKR has said it's important. There is a reason beyond indifference, and it will affect Harry's mission somehow.

We're interested in why because JKR has said it's important. There is a reason beyond indifference, and it will affect Harry's mission somehow.
I do agree with that, but my point was that though it may have some meaning for the future, it doesnt seem strange to me that Lord Voldemort offered to spare Lily's life, he does everything for a reason, JK never said that Voldemort killed for pleasure, he killed when he saw need and reason for it.
He can see, feel, speak, do magic, yet he never felt loved, never cared about any human being in positive way, his whole emotional being is pointed at self preservation at any cost, nothing is more important to him as his own power and immortality. So I can imagine him understanding that others want to live, he would not bother killing unless he deemed it nessesary.

On the other hand I am sure, that he didnt mean to spare her, as soon as he killed Harry, it would've been obvious to him, that he must kill Lily, because she would not stop trying to kill him ever.

Yet on the other other hand, I would not put it beyond Snape to try to beg Voldemort for Lily's life.... which would explain why he turned against him...if he did...

That's right. Lily did not have to die. Why did Voldemort give her a choice? Maybe it's part of his Horcrux making theory - or is it? What if Lily had something that Voldemort wanted? She had Harry. What if she knew something? The only thing Voldemort really wanted was the prophecy. It seems as if Voldemort knew Lily from before, seeing as he fought her and James three times. Slughorn mentions to Harry that his mother was a gifted Potions maker - did Voldemort want her for her SKILL? But that seems unlikely as well. Voldemort is one of the most gifted wizards in the world as he is evil. What if Lily knew about the prophecy? What if she heard it somehow? He would want to hear it from her. He wanted to use her protection. As the mother of his enemy he wanted the advantage. Voldemort only heard the first half, but assuming Lily somehow knew about the prophecy, maybe she knew the whole thing? I believe Voldemort wanted Lily for either her knowledge or her skill. There is no other reason as to why Voldemort would give Lily a choice.
It could also be the other way around. It could be that Voldemort knew something about Lily. She may or may have not known about it, but either way, he gave her the choice to save her life. Maybe he saw something in her. Maybe he thought of his own mother, Merope, when he gave her that choice. He didn't show any signs of taking her with him. As impossible as it seems, maybe Voldemort did feel sorry for Lily.

I believe Voldemort wanted Lily for either her knowledge or her skill. There is no other reason as to why Voldemort would give Lily a choice.
It could also be the other way around. It could be that Voldemort knew something about Lily. She may or may have not known about it, but either way, he gave her the choice to save her life. Maybe he saw something in her. Maybe he thought of his own mother, Merope, when he gave her that choice. He didn't show any signs of taking her with him. As impossible as it seems, maybe Voldemort did feel sorry for Lily.
I think Voldemort, however powerful or evil is still a person, he doesn't flinch to kill anyone on his way, but why deny him ability to do mercy for his own purpose?

Also why take his words literaly?

When he offered Lily a choice, it might not been a choice at all, he just tried to deal with what he felt most important first- kill the Harry, and if Lily stood aside it would have made it easier, and does not mean that he would have spared her.
He mentioned to Harry that his mother needn't have died, yet he also did it while trying to manipulate Harry, which might mean that his words are not at all true.
Theonna

Also why take his words literaly?
How about because Dumbledore and JKR have both also said that Lily had a choice?

How about because Dumbledore and JKR have both also said that Lily had a choice?
Lily had a choice, which was not up to Voldemort to give her.
She would have had that same choice, whatever plans Voldemort might have had or not had for her.
Facing disaster every mother has a choice to risk herself and try to spare her child or flee and save herself.
Her having a choice does not have to mean that Voldemort had any plans for her or that her choice was at all defined by the Dark Lord.
Theonna

I'm sure you guys are all smart enough to have picked this up already and I don't have time to read the whole conversation, but just a reminder that the ideal scapegoats for Voldemort to use are people that wizards are predisposed to think ill of.

Lily might qualify because she's muggle-born, but then again, she was very popular and well-liked and seemed like a stable, balanced individual, so I don't think she's an easy person to pin the blame on (especially seeing as she loved her husband and son).

Peter, however, is an easy target for a scapegoat. Both Sirius and Lupin marvelled at the fact that it had never occurred to them that Peter was the spy, but as soon as that possibility was raised, neither of them had any trouble believing that Peter was capable of murders. And he wasn't that popular therefore maybe no one would be all that sorry to see him go to Azkaban. And I like the theory that he had some sort of crush on Lily (who wouldn't?! she sounds a lot like Ginny - popular, pretty, smart, funny and kind) and therefore it would be quite easy for someone to assume he was jealous of James.

Interesting editorial, but like many others have said, the modification of Lily's memory and blaming her for the deaths of her family wouldn't seem to fit. Too many people would not believe it since it would be out of character for her and Dumbledore and the other authorities would engage in a heavy investigation.

One thing I wanted to point out was the statement you made regarding her being Muggleborn and involved with LV. You said, "Given she was Muggle-born and despite her magical Potions and/or Charms talents, it’s not plausible for Voldemort to have wanted her for his service."

This is not entirely true. JKR said that a Muggle-born can become a Death Eater "in rare circumstances." A very talented Muggle-born in his service would benefit him greatly, especially since no one would suspect a Muggle-born in his organization. However, I highly doubt that Lily would join considering the type of person she was. If she were evil, that would be another story.

Perhaps Peter P was muggleborn? Does anyone know? If by some chance he is then JK could have been alluding to him when she said that a muggleborn could be become a deatheater in rare circumstances.

This is not entirely true. JKR said that a Muggle-born can become a Death Eater "in rare circumstances." A very talented Muggle-born in his service would benefit him greatly, especially since no one would suspect a Muggle-born in his organization. However, I highly doubt that Lily would join considering the type of person she was. If she were evil, that would be another story.


I don't think she was refering to Lily in the instance where she wrote that. I feel she was foreshadowing Snape since we find out at the end of the book that he was a half blood, not a full blood, and was able to become a member of the Death Eaters. I think it was he, not Lily, who was the 'rare circumstance.'

But I do agree that although we don't know too much just yet about Lily, but I doubt that she'd be swayed to go over to Voldemort's side. (Especially since she died trying to protect Harry from the bad guys!!!) She was strong, intelligent, feisty and stubborn. I'm sure she probably knew which side she would be on from the start.

I loved this one because it made me think, not particularly about whether Lily was going to take the blame or not, but because of something else that seemed unimportant as I read the books, but your thoughts made it a little clearer to me.

"The object
The significant death
The unfair blame
The location
The means of destruction"

Let me explain. I thought of what was most important to Harry, the thing he most looked forward to owning, when he found out he was a wizard -- a wand.

Maybe the last horcrux is Voldemort's own wand.
I think the significant death could be Olivander.
I agree with the other replies to this post, that in Voldemort's early days, he may not have been able to afford the outright noticibility and attention that a murder would bring to a young wizard, however, as later noted, he didn't seem to care about who knew because he was rising in power and thought himself invincible with the creation of his earlier horcruxes.
I think the location (final battle) will be at Hogwarts because that is the ulitmate representation of wizardry in Voldemort's mind (and incidentally was his initial goal as a teen).
I know that snapping Ron's wand (car ride into the whomping willow) destroyed it, so maybe that will be all it takes.

Let me know what you think. (Rubbish or Brilliant)

Nice editorial; but why would Voldemort have bothered covering up the murder? Did he really care at that point? The other two murders mentioned in the first part of the editorial were committed back when Voldemort was still thought of as a normal person, right?

Numbing swirling white mist was filling Harry’s brain...What was he doing? Why was he flying? He needed to help her...she was going to die...she was going to be murdered
-POA, pg. 134

The point of view in this passage is so unclear. It is easy to read it on the first level, as Harry!Now... but much of that passage is a confusion, perhaps a mix of thoughts, from the memory itself and from the third person point of view, and as it is Harry is there a confusion of first and third person?

If it is Harrry!Now, why is he flying?

The sequence is related in chronological order.

Pronouns reference the precedant noun, but is "he" always referencing "Harry?