Fawkes and Snape v2

So, if I'm following you, Dumbledore did something(s) to earn Fawkes's trust, and in turn, Fawkes decided he'd like to spend more time with this great wizard. Fawkes chose to follow/live with Dumbledore. Is that what you're thinking?
This is exactly what I am thinking...and now, if I am following you correctly, cruppie, are you thinking about Dumbledore's defeat of Grindewald??? I wonder how long Dumbledore has had Fawkes in his possession. Wasn't Fawkes in the office when Riddle came to interview for the DADA position? Yes, I just looked it up in Lord Voldemort's Request...Fawkes is there! So that's easily a good 40 years that Fawkes has been with Dumbledore. I agree that I don't think Dumbledore "saved" Fawkes. I think it was something that Fawkes witnessed in Dumbledore himself.

Thanks for the well wishes!

Lots of awesome stuff going on. It's great. I wish I had time to get to everything but I need to be brief at the moment.

Now I'm trying to think what would have made Dumbledore "worthy" of Fawkes .... nothing comes to mind... what did Dumbledore and Snape, for that matter, do to win the loyality of a phoenix??????

I really like this path. Just as Snape had to earn Dumbledore's trust, so did Dumbledore with Fawkes. Harry also had to earn Fawkes' trust by proclaiming his loyalty to Dumbledore.

Personally, I don't think that Dumbledore did anything to earn Fawkes' loyality. I think that he had him from when he was an egg. Some animals form a bond with whoever is around them in their infancy. When I was a boy, I had a baby duck that used to follow me around as if I were it's mother....:D

This is why I think that Dumbledore got Fawkes from Hagrid. As we know, he has a way of "finding" rare creatures. I think that some how he came across a phoenix egg, and gave it to Dumbledore as a gift.

I don't think it's impossible that Dumbledore got Fawkes as a baby, but I think given what we know about phoenixes (that they are rarely domesticated....and that they are a symbol of good), I personally feel it would be more powerful if Dumbledore earned Fawkes' trust somehow, if Dumbledore is "worthy" of Fawkes' trust, just like Harry had to be worthy of Fawkes' trust by being loyal to Dumbledore. It would be a nice parallel.

This is exactly what I am thinking...and now, if I am following you correctly, cruppie, are you thinking about Dumbledore's defeat of Grindewald??? I wonder how long Dumbledore has had Fawkes in his possession. Wasn't Fawkes in the office when Riddle came to interview for the DADA position? Yes, I just looked it up in Lord Voldemort's Request...Fawkes is there! So that's easily a good 40 years that Fawkes has been with Dumbledore. I agree that I don't think Dumbledore "saved" Fawkes. I think it was something that Fawkes witnessed in Dumbledore himself.

Yes, you're following me correctly. I think that Fawkes saw something, perhaps on Dumbledore's way to defeating Grindewald, and Fawkes decided that Dumbledore was the kind of wizard he'd like to aid as best he could...

All this talk about Grindewald and choices has spinned a crazy thought into my head: there have been several mentions of the fact that Dumbledore had powers that he chose not to use, for the only reason that they were Dark magic, even though he could've at any time; so perhaps during his last battle with Grindewald he chose not to use those powers, with the risk of being defeated, prefering to fight back using other charms...so perhaps that's what Fawkes saw...

I like where you are headed with that cruppie and alex2moony. I agree...if Dumbledore is capable of the same type of powers as Voldemort, but is too noble to use them (per McGonagall, I believe in PS/SS), then that would be an excellent idea for what Fawkes witnessed! Do you think it's possible that Fawkes swallowed an Avada Kedavra curse for Dumbledore from Grindewald after he saw how Dumbledore fought and took sides? And then after that, Fawkes and Dumbledore were a pair?

I like where you are headed with that cruppie and alex2moony. I agree...if Dumbledore is capable of the same type of powers as Voldemort, but is too noble to use them (per McGonagall, I believe in PS/SS), then that would be an excellent idea for what Fawkes witnessed! Do you think it's possible that Fawkes swallowed an Avada Kedavra curse for Dumbledore from Grindewald after he saw how Dumbledore fought and took sides? And then after that, Fawkes and Dumbledore were a pair?

yep, I was talking about McGonagall, but I was too lazy to search for the exact quote :p thanks

I'm really starting to like the idea of a parallel between the scene we are picturing and the one in the OotP, and it makes perfect sense, because Dumbledore was not by any means surprised by what Fawkes did, suggesting that it wasn't the first time Fawkes protected Dumbledore from the Avada Kedavra curse...

I think we are on to something here :clap:

yep, I was talking about McGonagall, but I was too lazy to search for the exact quote :p thanks

I'm really starting to like the idea of a parallel between the scene we are picturing and the one in the OotP, and it makes perfect sense, because Dumbledore was not by any means surprised by what Fawkes did, suggesting that it wasn't the first time Fawkes protected Dumbledore from the Avada Kedavra curse...

I think we are on to something here :clap:

I'm very pleased with the way this is shaping up. Dumbledore was too noble to resort to Dark Arts to defend himself or whatever, and Fawkes swallowed the AK, as he did when we witnessed it. Is that what you're thinking too?

yes, yes!!! I love our theory! It's great, isn't it? They both showed immense loyalty to each other and both discovered they "deserved" each other. A real EQUAL partnership, isn't it?

I'm very pleased with the way this is shaping up. Dumbledore was too noble to resort to Dark Arts to defend himself or whatever, and Fawkes swallowed the AK, as he did when we witnessed it. Is that what you're thinking too?

exactly! :tu: It would be a perfect parallel :D

and what could be a better proof for Fawkes than being willing to die than to use Dark magic (even if by using it DD would have surely destroyed Grindewald much easier).

yes, yes!!! I love our theory! It's great, isn't it? They both showed immense loyalty to each other and both discovered they "deserved" each other. A real EQUAL partnership, isn't it?

I love it too! :p I like the word "partnership" used along with these two, it has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? :love:

:tu: :clap: :love: Is there any other way for me to say I think we've got it?? Even if JKR never explains the backstory, I think this fits exceptionally well. Choices and right over might, so to speak, and a partnership is born.

I wonder if Snape and Fawkes would have a true partnership or if they would just work together for the bigger picture? Was Fawkes watching/listening when Snape was dodging Harry's "bullets" and teaching "No Unforgivables for you Potter"??

I wonder if Snape and Fawkes would have a true partnership or if they would just work together for the bigger picture? Was Fawkes watching/listening when Snape was dodging Harry's "bullets" and teaching "No Unforgivables for you Potter"??

I like to believe he did listen to that last "lesson"... and I just thought of something: who came to Harry's rescue? Buckbeak - a proud creature - who defended Harry's pride from being hurt by Snape's further remarks, not Fawkes... Fawkes was just watching and observing another step into Harry's growing-up.

I like to believe he did listen to that last "lesson"... and I just thought of something: who came to Harry's rescue? Buckbeak - a proud creature - who defended Harry's pride from being hurt by Snape's further remarks, not Fawkes... Fawkes was just watching and observing another step into Harry's growing-up.
And Buckbeak is the one who drives Snape from the ground when Snape is hitting Harry with a nasty spell. He doesn’t appear when Snape made his remarks. Buckbeak doesn’t protect Harry’s pride, he protects his health. Interesting, Buckbeak is sort of joined ownership of Hagrid and Sirius… Actually I doubt that Snape and magical creatures go very well together.

Since Voldemort’s wand already consists of one of Fawkes feathers I take it that Fawkes was already in Dumbledore’s possession at that time. That would mean Fawkes and Dumbledore were partners before WW II, way before Grindelwald.

staniw, do we know when Voldemort/Tom got THAT wand? Neville and Ron both get new wands, and Ron has a hand-me-down from an older brother, so evidently, for assorted reasons, wizards do get new wands.

Buckbeak is an interesting element to the equation. I need to re-read and ponder a bit before I comment.

staniw, do we know when Voldemort/Tom got THAT wand? Neville and Ron both get new wands, and Ron has a hand-me-down from an older brother, so evidently, for assorted reasons, wizards do get new wands.

We know he lived in an orphanage until he turned 11 and left for Hogwarts so we know he didn't get his first wand until then. We also know "the wand chooses the wizard" so I find it much more likely that the first wand that chose him was the one he has now-- the one that contains one of Fawkes' feathers.

:welcome: DarkDaysAhead!

I just popped in and wow, I've missed a lot. I'm still quite sick so this is will be another short post. But I just wanted to say that I love this idea about Fawkes and Dumbledore!

Neville and Ron both get new wands, and Ron has a hand-me-down from an older brother, so evidently, for assorted reasons, wizards do get new wands.
Both Ron and Neville had a specific reason not to buy there first wand at 11 and had the opportunity to get a hand-me-down. Those circumstances weren’t there for Tom Riddle. Dumbledore tells 11 year old Tom that he may have to buy some items second hand, not all. And it does seem more logical to buy second hand books and a new wand then vice-versa. Besides the wand chooses the wizard.

Another thing is that Olivander states about selling Voldemort's wand:
…well, if I’d known what that wand was going out into the world to do…

This means that Olivander sold the wand to a young Riddle, not to an infamous Riddle. Even though this leaves room that Riddle was older then 11 but not yet infamous when he bought the wand I think that the whole circumstantial evidence points to Riddle acquiring his wand at 11. Fits with the mirror image Harry-Voldemort, a key mirror in the books.

Buckbeak is a fitting image as Harry’s health protector IMO. He is Hagrid’s/Sirius’ pet. Those characters are very involved in protecting Harry. Both considers Harry very fondly and would and did go to any length to protect him. So Buckbeak comes to the rescue. Did Snape hit Harry with a dangerous spell? We don’t know. The only indication we have, an inability to breath, seems to indicate that it was dangerous. But Harry is physically threatened when Buckbeak comes to the rescue, just like Sirius going to the MoM when Harry was threatened.

Does it state anywhere that Fawkes gave the feathers for the wands while in DD's posession? Does it matter when it happened? I doesn't seem imposible to have given them before "meeting" DD...

And about Buckbeak... I said that he "protected" Harry's ego because right before Snape cast his final spell he was making certain remarks that would've hurt Harry's pride more than his body (matter-of-factly Snape was actually trying to protect Harry as much as he could from the attacks of the other DEs, he only harmed him when his patience ran out and when Harry's accusations touched a soft spot).

Does it state anywhere that Fawkes gave the feathers for the wands while in DD's posession? Does it matter when it happened? I doesn't seem imposible to have given them before "meeting" DD...

I don't think it states it directly. I do remember (not sure which book) that Dumbledore recieved letters from Ollivander when both Riddle and Harry bought their wands with the feather. I agree it doesn't seem impossible that Fawkes gave feathers before meeting Dumbledore. The only problem I have with this is if Fawkes wasn't Dumbledore's at the time, why is it important for Dumbledore to know who has the wands? Also, maybe there is some magical why of knowing this but, how would Ollivander know that the same phoenix that gave feathers, now belonged to Dumbledore?

This is a fascinating thread - glad I wandered into it! Although much of this has crossed my mind at various times, I had never considered the possibility that the reason Dumbledore so trusted Snape was because of Fawkes' trust of Snape. Love it!

:welcome: confutatis!

This wand idea is fascinating. I hope you will continue it. I need to get better so I can be slightly more active in my thread!

Hope you get well soon, aislin! We need to hear your thoughts on the subject.
About DD receiving letters about who got the wands with the phoenix feathers... I can't remember anything like that being in the books, I could be wrong, of course, but I prefer to see the exact quote before I discuss this further...

aislin, get well soon! We miss your input and I hope you'll be able to join in soon.

I don't recall Dumbledore getting letters, but my memory/attention to detail could be a lot better. I would guess that if Dumbledore is receiving letters when someone gets a Fawkes feather core wand, the feathers were given while Fawkes was residing with Dumbledore.

Ok, I found what I was looking for
"Mr. Ollivander wrote to tell me you had bought the second wand, the moment you left his shop four years ago." (GoF pg 697 US hardcover)
I could be jumping the gun and Ollivander only wrote to Dumbledore because of Harry's fame and story. But then if Dumbledore didn't get a letter( or something like it) when Riddle bought his wand, how would he know that Riddle had a Fawkes feather wand?

Thanks for providing the canon, snapegirl77. So, my vote is for the feathers coming from Fawkes after the Phoenix was with Dumbledore.

:welcome: DarkDaysAhead!

Thanks! :D

That seems to make the most sense. How would Dumbledore have known about Harry's and Voldemort's wands containing one of Fawkes' feathers if this had all taken place BEFORE he acquired Fawkes?

Just a thought here but we know that Fawkes leaves feathers as messages, could it be that Dumbledore actually provided the feathers to Ollivander himself?

Not that it makes much difference either way but it seems to me that it is a possibility.

I am looking forward to finding out more about the wands relationships with their wizards - I believe I read somewhere that we find out more about this in the final book - and wonder if Fawkes and his connection to both Harry and Voldemort might be the means of letting us know about it.

Hi LouisaB! That's an interesting option. At first, I thought it was impossible, recalling the greed that ran through Slughorn's mind as he eyed Hagrid's "creature treasures" but as I've pondered it, I think that Dumbledore could have simply GIVEN them to Ollivander, because he understands the necessity of different wand cores. However, could Slughorn the mercenary have swiped a couple of Fawkes's feathers for profit? I kind of doubt it, because why would Ollivander then send Dumbledore a letter to let him know a wand with Fawkes's feather as its core had been purchased?

Since Ollivander sent Dumbledore a letter, I am under the impression that Dumbledore gave the feathers to Ollivander under the condition that Dumbledore would be informed who got the wands.It just seems like a Dumbledore thing to do-to want to know in whose wands Fawkes' feathers were.

Agreed, aislin. I suppose it's akin to a Muggle who donate their loved ones bodies for organ donations wanting to know where their "parts" go??

It would be interesting if Fawkes was aware about the wand situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if Fawkes is aware of the feathers sent to Ollivander. Why would Dumbledore keep it from Fawkes?

I wonder why it was only 2. Probably just a plot device but still...

:welcome: confutatus! And Hi DarkDays--it's been a while since I've seen you on a thread anywhere! Oh, and Hi LouisaB! Nice to see you wander in here! aislin, hope you are feeling better now!

Just a thought here but we know that Fawkes leaves feathers as messages, could it be that Dumbledore actually provided the feathers to Ollivander himself?
Okay, sorry, but I am going to have to disagree with you all here: Ollivander said this to Harry in PS/SS:


[Ollivander] put Harry's wand back into its box and wrapped it in brown paper, still muttering, "Curious...curious..."

"Sorry," said Harry, "but what's curious?"

Mr. Ollivander fixed Harry with his pale stare.
"I remember every wand I've ever sold, Mr. Potter. Every single wand. It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather--just one other. It is very curious indeed that you should be destined for this wand when its brother--why, its brother gave you that scar."

Then, in GoF, during The Weighing of the Wands, Ollivander said that Cedric's wand contained a unicorn feather, and that he was nearly gorged by it after he plucked the hair from the unicorn's tail. so it seems Ollivander takes risks in collecting the cores for his wands (and doesn't he say somewhere that he makes all of the wands himself...I can't think of where I read that...).

It just seems from the way the phrase is, that the word "gave" just one more feather implies that it was special and rare--perhaps only certain feathers can be used for making the wands. And if Dumbledore could just give Ollivander feathers whenever, it would lose its importance, I feel. Okay...then again, I am really tired this evening and not making sense in my argument...perhaps I will resume this when I am making more sense...I had a point I swear!

I also feel that Dumbledore did know about both Riddle and Harry purchasing Fawkes' wands...because when Harry said that their wands connected, Dumbledore knew immediately why: priori incantatem. This happens only when a wand meets its brother wand. And Dumbledore already knew they contained the same core; he needed no explanation. I feel Dumbledore's phrase of "Ollivander informed me you had purchased the second wand..." to mean that he knew exactly who had purchased the first wand.

hpfan101, I really think you are on to something. Please keep going!

Now to bring Snape back into this mix...obviously he does not have a feather of Fawkes' in his wand since Fawkes only gave 2 and we know in whose wand core they reside in.

hpfan101, are you thinking that Fawkes gave the feathers himself, almost as sort of a sacrifice in the name of great wands??

cruppie...I am not sure what I am thinking at the moment...I want to mull this over a bit more before I decide here (I posted last night after 3 nights of 4 hour sleep and after working 16 hours straight yesterday...I was a bit tired and my thoughts were a bit out there :cool:). Interesting that you used the word sacrifice...almost as if destiny layed out years earlier that Voldemort and Harry would get these wands. Almost as if Fawkes, the symbol of good, provided the feathers for two wands to help two wizards: the epitome of evil, and then his opposite--the power he knows not, the epitome of good in Harry. Remember, the wand chooses the wizard, but the wand contains something from a magical creature...could it even be that the creature chooses the wizard...and Fawkes somehow "chose" Riddle and Harry, because the wand recognized what these two wizards would become, given certain choices? Okay....I really need to stop, I think I am going off the deep end here...let me come back to this~

ooohhh, aislin, speculation on Snape's wand core! Do we know for sure? Okay, I have an idea for this, and I would love to try and look it up real quick, but I have to go to work and I won't be able to sign on until tomorrow morning...feel free to speculate while I am gone, though!!!

hpfan101, that's just cruel! ;) I bet you like those shows that end with "to be continued..." too! I hope you return well-rested and ready to spill the beans!

In the meantime, I'm going to wait to see if anyone else has any thoughts on the matter.

Well I looked up to see if we know for sure about Snape's wand and it is not one of those listed at the Lexicon so looking forward to hearing the speculations.

Just because Snape does not have a Fawkes feather, it does not rule out the possibility of still having a phoenix feather. Fawkes isn't the only phoenix in the world.

What about Dumbledore's wand core? He's very much associated with phoenixes?

hpfan101 , love the idea of sacrifce! :tu:

Fair chance. I believe Olivander only uses three types of core, this could mean that roughly up to one third of all (British) wizards could have a phoenix core. Interesting, quit a lot of deatheaters could have a phoenix core…

Very interesting question, aislin! I do suspect that there are other Phoenix feather providers for wand-making, because unicorn hair seems equally rare, so it makes sense that there would be more than two wands in the "active wizard" world with a Phoenix feather core!

Here is a quote from the recent New York appearance where someone asked about wand cores.

Samantha: In the wizarding world there are many wandmakers, Ollivander's being the one we're most familiar with. How come Ollivander chose the three magical cores for the wands he makes to be phoenix feather, unicorn hair, and dragon heartstring? And how come he decided that these are the three most powerful cores as opposed to others such as veela hair?

J.K. Rowling: Good question. Well, it is true that there are several wandmakers and in my notes about Harry I have many different cores for wands. Essentially I decided Ollivander was going to use my three favorites. So Ollivander has decided that those are the three most powerful substances. Other wandmakers might choose things that are particular to their country because countries as you know in my world have their own particular indigenous magical species so veela hair was kind of obvious for Fleur's wand. But um, yeah, good question. I've never had that one before (crowd applauds).

So it would certainly appear that there are indeed more phoenix feathers in wands out there. Just no more from Fawkes.

Okay, guys, I am going to apologize again, I still have something I want to look at, but I have to leave for work again and I just got home! :grumble: But I am off tomorrow, so I will have time to look it up then.

I agree that it's not the phoenix feather that is rare, but having two brother wands meet each other. Dumbledore himself says priori incantatem is a rare occurance, and no one else seems to know what it is, even Voldemort. Also, perhaps it IS rare for a phoenix to give two and ONLY two feathers...it makes the chance of meeting the brother wand all that more slim.

So Ollivander uses: dragon heartstring, unicorn hair, and phoenix feathers, correct? And then we must consider that there are different types of wood used....Jo said something about Celtic tradition assigninig different woods to different characters based on their birthday, but she did this for a few, but not all. I think she said she didn't do this for Voldemort or Harry, and Voldemort's wand is made of Yew, which is a symbol for evil or darkness. OKay, don't quote me on any of this, I am doing this from memory, so I am not positive about the type of wood...but I am going somewhere with this.

And cruppie, I am not cruel! I do love a good mystery though :eyebrows:

The core of the wand is obviously what makes priori incantatem possible, because Harry's wand wood differs from Voldemort's, or at least, that's my opinion. I look forward to hearing the rest of the story, hpfan101!

As for Fawkes's feathers vs. other Phoenixs' feathers, it could indeed be significant that Fawkes only gave two feathers, because only those two wands could be brothers. I'm still curious about the other wand cores, but I'm not sure we'll hear much more about wands, unless Ollivander is found alive in book 7.

JKR has indicated that we will find out more about the relationship between wands and their owners in the final book and the disappearance of Ollivander makes me sure that we will find out a lot more about wands generally.

I am sure that the feathers being from Fawkes is what made the wands brothers.

I am puzzled about how it doesn't happen so often with other phoenix feathers though, particularly as the birds are so rare. Unless it is simply that the phoenix core is rarer generally than the other two....

It just puzzles me a bit.

Well, from what we know of phoenixes, unicorns and dragons, it's hard to imagine that feathers are any rarer than the other two. As greedily as Slughorn eyed the unicorn hair in Hagrid's hut, I think we were told how rare and valuable that was. Dragon heartstring can't be more plentiful, so the whole ratio is difficult to grasp.

Well JKR indicates that she would estimate there to be about 3000 wizards in Britain. So with three main wand cores it splits nicely 1000 with each if it is even. I think perhaps it isn't though. I would say rarest being phoenix feathers, then dragon heart strings and then unicorn hairs being most common. Just guessing on the basis of the dragons not being in the country generally.

ooh speculations on Snape wand core : I love that.
Great find about the three wand cores (I did not know about that). Looks like all three are magical animals that are impossible to tame, explaining why the wand chooses the wizard rather than the other way round.
I'd say Snape's got the unicorn one. Don't ask me.

Well JKR indicates that she would estimate there to be about 3000 wizards in Britain. So with three main wand cores it splits nicely 1000 with each if it is even. I think perhaps it isn't though. I would say rarest being phoenix feathers, then dragon heart strings and then unicorn hairs being most common. Just guessing on the basis of the dragons not being in the country generally.

That makes sense, LouisaB. I also think it's possible that one long unicorn hair (or section of hairs) could make more than one wand, but a feather is a feather, and it would need to be intact. Growing up on a farm, I've tried to cut feathers, and it simply doesn't work, but cutting horse hair is no problem at all. I can't speculate on dragon heart strings.

LouisaB, That's from the night I was there. So cool.

Interesting, quit a lot of deatheaters could have a phoenix core…

Now, there's a thought. Rather unnerving, Atleast to me that real Death Eaters could have phoenix wand cores. It's distrubing enough that Voldemort has a Fawkes' feather.

I am puzzled about how it doesn't happen so often with other phoenix feathers though, particularly as the birds are so rare. Unless it is simply that the phoenix core is rarer generally than the other two....

That is puzzling. Unless it is a very rare occurance that a single phoenix would give more than one feather. Perhaps that is why Olivander notified Dumbledore-precisely because the giving of more than one feather by a single phoenix is such a rarity. Maybe it had never even happened before.

aislin, I like the idea that no other phoenix had given two feathers before. That makes it all come together, and it makes the rarity very clear, to me anyhow.

Unless there is a third element to wands, and that also has to be in sync for priori incantatem to happen?? What else could matter, other than the wood and the core?

Well Harry's wand is Holly and Voldemort's is Yew so they have different types of wood. I think though that it must be because of the feathers themselves because of the phoenix song that is heard.

I would guess that that is also why two unicorn hairs from the same animal or two dragon heartstrings from the same one don't cause the same spell to occur.

I like the idea that no other phoenix has given two feathers, though I would think that it must have happened before for Dumbledore to know what it was that had happened. If it had never happened before then it would be an entirely unknown reaction much as Lily's sacrifice was. There is no name for the magic that she invoked in doing that, other than that it is ancient. If there was no precedent for the phoenix feathers meeting then it would not be named.

I wonder if Dumbledore has witnessed it before himself. Not with Fawkes's feathers but with the two feathers of another Phoenix.

Okay, this is just a sketchy idea so forgive the rambling.

Tying in with the fact that Fawkes has not been owned by anyone other than Dumbledore I think that Dumbledore could have had Fawkes from when he was born/hatched.

Could his wand have a phoenix feather of Fawkes's mother? Potentially with Grindelwald having a second feather from that bird.

That might explain how he knows about two brother wands meeting. It could have happened to him when he faced Grindelwald.

It might have triggered him to find out more about the phoenix feathers and the reaction which could lead him to the phoenix who gave feathers for his and Grindelwald's wands and thus to a newly hatched Fawkes.

If Grindelwald was not at this point defeated and followed the same clues it could be that their final confrontation was in front of Fawkes which could be what earned his loyalty. Perhaps if Grindelwald attacked the mother or she got caught in the crossfire, and Dumbledore then defeated him? Then Dumbledore inherited Fawkes that way.

It could also explain why Fawkes only ever gave two feathers. Because like Dumbledore he knew what could potentially happen. And because what were the odds of those two wands meeting in combat?

Hmmm... I'll need to digest that LouisaB, but you have a great point about the Phoenix Song. Most assuredly, priori incantatem has happened before, for the very reasons you stated. It wouldn't have a name, and Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to explain it if it had never happened before.

Priori incantatem seemed to give Harry much more of an advantage than it did Voldemort, so perhaps the spell works to the advantage of the purer of heart wizard in all cases? I still wonder if Voldemort has the same wand, or if he got another one, just to be sure Harry never has THAT advantage again. If LouisaB is correct, perhaps it does only happen with Phoenix feather core wands, as the Phoenix song is said to strengthen the pure of heart and to have an adverse impact on those of evil intent, right?

Remember in OotP, Mr Diggory used prior incantatum on Harry's wand to find out who cast the Dark Mark. So, it can be used as a tool, too, not just as an effect of brother wands dueling.

susanbones, Mr. Diggory used Prior Incantato...which shows a ghost of the last spell cast by a particular wand. Priori Incantatem is the reverse spell effect based on when a wand meets its brother--it can't duel propery against the brother wand and one wand forces the other wand to show all of the spells it has cast, in reverse order.

Last night, you guys sure came up with some interesting stuff! I will come back later with some more thoughts!

susanbones, Mr. Diggory used Prior Incantato...which shows a ghost of the last spell cast by a particular wand. Priori Incantatem is the reverse spell effect based on when a wand meets its brother--it can't duel propery against the brother wand and one wand forces the other wand to show all of the spells it has cast, in reverse order.
JK Rowling uses Latin words for spells, not in every case, but very often. In Latin, prior incantato is singular, meaning one spell. Priori incantatem is plural, meaning more than one. So, you may be right that each spell it different, but I may be right that it is the same spell, in its singular and plural versions.

Could his wand have a phoenix feather of Fawkes's mother? Potentially with Grindelwald having a second feather from that bird.

That's interesting. Dumbledore knew right away what had happened. Maybe he had seen it before. Or if he had not been a witness, then he must have read about it at some point during his life.

Dumbledore calls the priory incantatum a very rare effect. I take this to mean that although it seldom happens it is not completely unheard of.

This is in line with their being more brother wands out there. Still it is probably pretty special to meet your brother wand and to try to do battle with it, making it a rare occurrence.

Olivanders words in PS do mean that it is rare that a phoenix only give two feathers. This I take to mean that usually they give more:
It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather – just one other

Olivanders words in PS do mean that it is rare that a phoenix only give two feathers. This I take to mean that usually they give more:
It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather – just one other
That's what I thought too. I go the impression that Harry's wand core was very special and not just because Voldemort has the other feather. Like Fawkes' magic is stronger than the "average" phoenix.

If the interpretation suggested by staniw is correct, then Harry's wand core would be very special because it is so very rare. By the time Harry gets his wand, that would be the only Fawkes feather core wand remaining. By no means however, do I doubt that there's something special about Fawkes, as compared to other Phoenixes!

I had read Ollivander's line as leaning more towards the idea that it was rare for a phoenix to give more than one.I was thinking that although he uses phoenix feathers, they are rare and rather hard to come by. But, as stainw has pointed out, there are more than one way to read the same line.

Either way, what happens when Harry and Voldemort's wands connect, is very rare but not out of the realm of being heard of.

So, back to wands and Snape. (Yooohooo, hpfan101???? We're waiting...) We can be certain that Snape does not have a Fawkes feather core wand. What is his wand core? Is there any way to make an educated guess?

The wand chooses the wizard so whatever is in his core would have to speak to his personality/character. Voldemort is sorta like a phoenix-in a very twisted way. He was "reborn".

I don't know why but I dragon heartstring springs to my mind as being the suitable one for Snape.

My guess for Snape's wand is another phoenix feather. There are links between Harry, Voldemort and Snape: all are half-bloods and had lousy childhoods. I know it's not much, but I think it would fit if Snape had the same wand core as Harry and Voldemort.

I am hesitant to say phoenix feather as I think that if it was it would only be really relevant if it was a case of him being in midst of the final battle between Harry and Voldemort. I think that at the end it will be just the two of them who are facing each other and no one else will be involved. Though I am hoping that Snape will have survived to this point and is merely off doing something else.

The parallels are interesting though and it would certainly make sense if it was a phoenix feather.

It would continue the Harry-Snape-Voldemort spectrum if he did have a phoenix feather.

Guess we are going to have to wait and see. Oh what a helpful answer that was. :p

I don't know why but I dragon heartstring springs to my mind as being the suitable one for Snape.

Dragon. Snape has been compared to a dragon, indirectly. Something about Snape and poking a sleeping dragon in the eye, early in the series...???

Heartstring. Snape's warning to Harry about only fools wearing their hearts on their sleeves comes to mind.

Not so random after all, eh LouisaB?

Well, we know for sure it is one of three. So that's, what, a 33.33% chance of it being a dragon heartstring, a phoenix feather or a unicorn hair. Math and I don't get along so I may be off. Suffice to say, we have 3 options.

SNAPE'S WAND, PART 1

Alright everyone, I am sorry this has taken so long to get back to you guys, but I have had a busy weekend and haven’t been home since Thursday evening! But I finally collected the information I was looking for. Long ago, I read an article speculating about wands, so I did some searching and finally found the articles that I had read in The North Tower (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/) by Maline Fredén. One is called Wondering about Wands (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt26.shtml) and the other is Wands and Where to Find them (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt27.shtml). She also used an article from the Red Hen called The Art and Science of Wandmaking (http://redhen-publications.com/Wandmaking.html). I have summarized the relevant information from these lengthy articles as concisely as I could (if you are interested, I recommend all three articles—they are pretty interesting to read and you guys could tell me if you agree with their assumptions, mine or neither). Both authors speculate that a wand is indicative of the particular wizard’s strengths. I am also going to post two separate posts: first, this one about wand cores, then one about the wood of the wand. Okay, here we go:

Now there are three components to a wand: the length, the wood (and the wood’s characteristic—flexible, bendy, stiff, etc.) and finally the magical component. So far, length doesn’t seem to be indicative of any particular feature, besides perhaps height of the owner, so I have decided to not focus on that aspect. In this post, I am going to examine the cores of the wands:

The Red Hen article describes different types of magic as being of different “frequencies,” such as there exists different frequencies of sound/music. The author divides magic into three groups and attributes a wand core to each group, with each magical wand core channeling a specific “type” of magic more effectively than the other two types. Each character receives the type of wand core for that which he/she has the most capability in a particular frequency. So, in layman’s terms, each character has his/her own strengths, and their wand core reflects their specific strengths. But, since the wand chooses the wizard, this means that magic can be “sensed,” if you will, and the wands know instinctively which area a person will be most “effective” in, or has the most potential in.

The author states, “The core of a wand, as modified by the wand's wooden casing, will respond most readily to the wizard whose inherent harmonic range is the best match for its own natural “resonance”. Much in the way of determining a proper fit for eyeglasses. The wand “chooses” the wizard largely because while the potential range of any wand is likely to be greater than that of any specific wizard, with a good fit the individual base resonance of wand and wizard will match.”

We see in many cases that a particular “fit” is not good for a particular wizard, thus making a wizard less than superb at casting magic. Take Neville for example, who had his father’s wand: he never could produce great results in the first five books; in book 6, we do not get the same sense about Neville doing poorly (when he finally has his own wand). Neville's new wand does not contain the same magical core as his handed-down wand. Yet, we then have Ron, who got okay results with Charlie's old wand. Both Ron's wand and Charlie's old wand contain unicorn hair. So, we can surmise that you can get satisfactory results with a wand that is not yours, but you will get the best results with the wand that is the best "fit" for you.

Here is how the Red Hen article separates magic:

Upper Register Magics:
The Red Hen article assigns Charms to this level, with unicorn hair being assigned to Charms (the author’s reasoning is that Ron and Charlie both received unicorn hair wands and seem to be decent at charms).

I don’t agree with this personally. I prefer Maline’s interpretation, which I will discuss below. In my opinion, I don't see this as Ron's "strength." I also don't think that there is any strong evidence of this in canon. We know that Ron has a unicorn hair and so does Cedric. Chew on that for a second...

Mid-Range:
The Red Hen article then relates mid-range magic to defensive/combat type spells, or perhaps even to power, rather than a particular type of magic (I think we have discussed before, possibly on another thread, that Harry shows a particular aptitude for powerful spells, even on common spells. The author also basis this on the fact that Voldemort shows a particular skill for spells that require force—Legilemency, possession—but no wand. Other evidence for this is the force of Voldemort’s Unforgivables and the power Harry has behind his Patronus Charm, at age 13. Plus, Ollivander says that Voldemort did great things…terrible, but great). Phoenix feathers are attributed to this branch of magic.

I don't mind the assignment of defensive/combat spells to the phoenix feather, nor do I particularly have anything against "power" being attributed to the phoenix core, although I question this because of Dumbledore, whom I believe does NOT have a phoenix feather in his wand, based on his strengths compared to Harry's and Voldemort's.

Low Range Magic:
The author attributes the lowest “frequency” of magic to change magic—Transfiguration, Potions and Alchemy, and also assigns the dragon heartstring to this range of magic. This type of magic requires change, growth, care and a great deal of patience.

Charms bewitch an object to act a certain way (compulsion); the phoenix is used for combat (protection), but this level is used for creation or growth.
“Magic at this level may also sometimes be somewhat slower in response than the magic of the upper register or mid-range. It's action, however is inexorable, like the gradual encroachment of a root system which will split rocks. Magic at this level will take a concerted effort to halt once it is well begun and be difficult to redirect once invoked.”

I agree with the author that Transfiguration, Potions and Alchemy go together, and I agree with the Dragon heartstring for the core here. Maline divides them a little differently, and I personally prefer her divisions because, by HBP, we have more canon to support her take on wands. She assigns:

· Charms and DADA to the Phoenix feather. This makes sense to me because Harry's strengths are most definitely Charms and DADA.
· She speculates that Unicorn hair is for creation; people with an affinity for animals and for Herbology, perhaps Divination too (which I agree with, considering she speculated this before book 6 came out, and Neville’s new wand indeed contained a unicorn hair). Ron also fits in nicely with this division.
· Transfiguration, Potions and Alchemy to Dragon heartstring. Hermione's wand, of course, contains a Dragon heartstring, and she is particularly gifted at Transfiguration.

Alright, now we have some information down, and let's move on to SNAPE!

Maline surmises that Snape has a dragon heartstring (along with Dumbledore and McGonagall, James and Hermione)—the Red Hen article does not give an opinion on Snape’s wand core—just his wood type. Both articles assume that since Snape is the Potions master, he should be assigned with transfiguration and the “change” type of magic. I disagree with this. I think that Snape’s strongest subject is DADA (as we are reminded time and again that this is his preferred subject both while a student at Hogwarts and what subject he "wants" to teach--I also personally believe he shows a more natural flair for teaching DADA than he does with Potions; just my opinion, though). Now, don’t get me wrong, Snape is quite talented at Potions, but look at Dumbledore—he has a flair for all types of magic as well, but clearly he was noted for being exceptional beyond belief at Transfiguration. So is McGonagall. Then we have Snape who created jinxes, curses, whatever you want to call them while in school--and their countercurses!, he showed a measure of control with Sectumsempra in SWM, and of course (I know you’ll love this cruplover), Snape is a healer, which I think is instrumental in DADA—you have to know both the curse and the countercurse.

So, either way we look at it, based on the Red Hen's article or Maline’s interpretations, we get a phoenix feather for Snape based on MY interpretation of Snape's strengths (another reason I think Jo has been mum about Snape's wand core--it might show too much about his character, that perhaps Potions is not his true magical gift, his true person, his greatest strength?). Now, Maline assigns Snape to a dragon heartstring wand, because she lines him up with Potions automatically (and I’ll give both authors a break—they wrote their articles BEFORE the release of HBP, so they didn’t know all we know about Severus :eyebrows:).

So why do I think that Snape is better suited for classification under the Charms/DADA/combat sections rather than the Potions, do you ask? Well, we know that Snape altered the Potions in Advanced Potion Making and improved them. Okay, so Snape is a potions genius. But let’s look at the books (this is by no means exhaustive, merely a list of some things I found real quick):
PS/SS:

Snape’s opening Potions class—Snape is very poetic with how he describes potions. Next, he asks Harry three questions: the first question relates to Draught of the Living Death. The second one is about a bezoar—saving a person from most poisons. The third question, if I am not mistaken, relates to the Wolfsbane Potion, which “heals” a werewolf from agony during the full moon. The very first potion the students ever set out to make is a potion to cure boils. Also a Healer.
Snape uses a countercurse to Quirrell’s attempt to knock Harry off his broomstick (and yes, Quirrell claims he would have succeeded, but Quirrell was using Dark Magic; Snape, purportedly, was not).
Snape referees the second Quidditch Match to protect Harry from any other occurance
Then, we see that Snape decided to use a Logic puzzle to guard the stone; yes, the cups were filled with Potions, but logic and quick thinking is vital when it comes to DADA.

CoS:

out of all of the teachers at Hogwarts, Snape missed the Welcoming Feast to ensure Harry arrived safe at Hogwarts
at the Dueling Club, Snape chose to show the students Expelliarmus, the Disarming Charm

PoA:

Snape made Lupin the Wolfsbane potion all year long, even though he despises Lupin, a potion which eases the pain and “heals” the werewolf from the torturous transformations during the Full Moon. Not only did this “heal” Lupin, but the potion, brewed correctly, also ensured the safety of the students at Hogwarts each full moon.
Snape ensured that Harry, Hermione, Ron and Sirius, all unconscious, were taken up to the castle on stretchers after the Shrieking Sack episode and the Dementors

GoF: sorry, I am skipping this book because it’s late and the book is too long for me to look through right now

OotP:

Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum

HBP:

obviously, we learn that Snape was very skilled at DADA
he invented spells and their countercurses
he healed Draco’s cuts after Sectumsempra
he healed Dumbledore after the hand injury
Snape prevented Draco from splitting his soul by killing Dumbledore himself; furthermore, Snape protected Draco throughout the year (yes, the Unbreakable Vow--but he made that willingly)


The point I am trying to make is that I think that Voldemort, Harry and Snape all mirror each other. I think their strengths are all intertwined and that this supports Snape having a phoenix feather in his wand. They all represent a different facet of the phoenix feather's strengths (and weaknesses, perhaps?). And while he does share many strengths with Dumbledore as well, I believe Snape fits better with the phoenix feather than he does with the dragon heartstring because, while Snape is gifted at Potions, it is what he uses Potions for--the healing bit, that I think solidifies Snape having a phoenix core. I personally don't believe that the unicorn tail is even a possibility for Snape--it doesn't fit regardless of which article we use.

Okay, I know this has been lengthy...what do you guys think? Am I way off base here? I could be wrong, but I really like the Snape-Voldemort-Harry triangle and I think this is hinted at in many ways throughout the series, so it is natural for their wands to be of the same core as well. I will explain in my next post how I think the wood makes all the difference in explaining their differences as well....but I will await feedback from you guys first!

hpfan101, wow! :clap: Bravo! Well done!

I am a fan of the Harry-Snape-Voldemort triangle. It seems to me to be a common theme. Time and time it has been emphazied that the three of them have had very similair childhoods but it's the choices that they have made which keeps them seperate from each other. Snape is always the grey to Harry's white and Voldemort's black.

It is a shame, in a way, that Snape doens't have a Fawkes feather in his wand but if he does indeed have a phoenix feather, there's still that link. A streched link but most of this idea is a strech anyways. :p

Can't wait to hear what else you come up with.

Dragon. Snape has been compared to a dragon, indirectly. Something about Snape and poking a sleeping dragon in the eye, early in the series...???

Heartstring. Snape's warning to Harry about only fools wearing their hearts on their sleeves comes to mind.

Not so random after all, eh LouisaB?

:lol: At least that is better thought out than my instints.

hpfan101 - I second that wow - very detailed and in light of that I am inclined to lean towards the phoenix feather on your basis rather than the authors of the essays. Thanks for posting it all.

Time and time it has been emphazied that the three of them have had very similair childhoods Not to be picky but when has this time and time actually occurred? I recall very little about us hammered over the head between the similarities between the three of them.

Both were orphans, one was not. Both were raised without love, one was not. (By this I mean that I see nothing in Snape’s memory which indicates that his mother didn’t love him. Added to this is that young Snape used his mother’s name for his nickname). Both are leaders of their gang, highly respected among their close peers. One was an oddball, a lonely figure.

There is a pattern all right: the similarity between Harry and Voldemort, both before coming to Hogwarts and while being there. Snape doesn’t share those similarities. The similarity between Harry and Voldemort is emphasized by sharing the same phoenix feather. The fact that Snape doesn’t share a feather of this phoenix means that the similarity between Snape and those two just isn’t there.

I am not sold on the wand core thing. There are only three types, it seems to me to be a too rough an indicator to split all the wizards. But then again, I feel the same about the four houses…

hpfan101, wow! :clap: Bravo! Well done!

I am a fan of the Harry-Snape-Voldemort triangle. It seems to me to be a common theme. Time and time it has been emphazied that the three of them have had very similair childhoods but it's the choices that they have made which keeps them seperate from each other. Snape is always the grey to Harry's white and Voldemort's black.

It is a shame, in a way, that Snape doens't have a Fawkes feather in his wand but if he does indeed have a phoenix feather, there's still that link. A streched link but most of this idea is a strech anyways. :p

Can't wait to hear what else you come up with.

I noticed that as well... and it makes perfect sense that it is that way :clap:...

Wonderful post, hpfan101! You make some great arguments for Snape having a phoenix feather core. It's highly possible for a person to do well in a subject without it being their greatest passion. You know my interest in Healer Snape, and certainly, both Potions and DADA would work together for a successful healer. Maybe there are healers who focus on either potions or DADA, but I see the two of them woven together.

It also makes great sense that the wand core would enhance a wizard's natural assets. All three articles you drew from make that point rather clear. I also think that the traits of the magical creatures who provide the wand cores could also come into play.

I look forward to Part II on the wand woods and how they tie into the wand chooses the wizard equation!

Thanks everyone for the feedback! :blush: I am glad you guys enjoyed the information! I had a lot of fun looking into this! I promise Part II will be shorter in arriving than Part I was...I've already started on it, so that's good news!

I am a fan of the Harry-Snape-Voldemort triangle. It seems to me to be a common theme. Time and time it has been emphazied that the three of them have had very similair childhoods but it's the choices that they have made which keeps them seperate from each other. Snape is always the grey to Harry's white and Voldemort's black.

It is a shame, in a way, that Snape doens't have a Fawkes feather in his wand but if he does indeed have a phoenix feather, there's still that link. A streched link but most of this idea is a strech anyways. :p
Well, I don't really think it is a stretch, to be honest. I think I have successfully proven that Snape is most unlikely to have a unicorn feather, based on canon. So that leaves dragon heartstring or the phoenix feather--a 50-50 chance of being right ;) And I think either works for him, but I see more evidence for the phoenix feather based on my personal interpretation of Snape as a character. I actually think it makes more sense for Snape to not have Fawkes' feather than for him to have a third one. Let me explain: Harry-Voldemort share a direct link. They are opposites, as you note, the black and the white. Thus, their wand core link is direct. Snape, on the other hand, again, as you note, is the grey. He is on the outer edges, sharing a similar, but not parallel childhood to these two. He contains shadows of similariities, but not the direct ones that Voldemort and Harry share. So this explains why he has a phoenix feather, but not Fawkes. He is similar, but not parallel. Am I making sense here?

staniw, if you are truly interested, I will get into the Harry-Voldemort-Snape triangle in my next post. I see it, too, as do a great many others, so I would love to do a bit about it if you would like. Or, if your question was more rhetorical, please ignore me :)

It's highly possible for a person to do well in a subject without it being their greatest passion. You know my interest in Healer Snape, and certainly, both Potions and DADA would work together for a successful healer. Maybe there are healers who focus on either potions or DADA, but I see the two of them woven together.
Yes, I do know your interest here and I am with you all the way. Choices and healerSnape--cruppie's favs! I tried to do them justice...we'll see where this next post takes us!

It also makes great sense that the wand core would enhance a wizard's natural assets. All three articles you drew from make that point rather clear. [B]I also think that the traits of the magical creatures who provide the wand cores could also come into play.
Now that's another idea I agree with but couldn't fit into my post--that the magical creature itself indicates some special gift for a particular type of magic. I was too tired to take that any further...any thoughts on this?

Now that's another idea I agree with but couldn't fit into my post--that the magical creature itself indicates some special gift for a particular type of magic. I was too tired to take that any further...any thoughts on this?

Well the phoenix has the healing property of its tears and great strength.

Dragons also have strength and power.

Unicorns have the blood that can extend life.

Not sure where I'm going with this. Am rambling again. Can anyone think of other properties and characteristics of the three magical creatures?

It will be some time Tuesday before I can sit down with Fantastic Beasts and explore the traits of Unicorns, Dragons and Phoenixes. Hopefully, each description will include some of the weaknesses of the creatures too.

I don't have Fantastic Beasts myself (or the Quidditch book for that matter). I really should make an effort to find them. Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with.

Well, I'm hopeful that the weaknesses are also listed, because we've already discussed much earlier in this thread how the Phoenix's song impacts evils folks who hear it, and I think that there are implications for all three wand cores. With any luck, I'll get home tonight in time to look those three creatures up.

These are the full entries in Fantastic Beasts for these critters. (Except I haven't done all the breeds of dragon, since it's a phoenix thread, and I couldn't be bothered.)
Phoenix:
M.O.M classicifaction XXXX*
The Phoenix is a magnificent, swan-sized, scarlet bird with a long golden tail, beak and talons. It nests on mountain peaks and is found in Egypt, India and China. The Phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate, bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising again from the ashes as a chick. The phoenix is a gentle creature that has never been known to kill and eats only herbs. Like the Diricawl, it can disappear and reappear at will. Phoenix song is magical: it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and strike fear into the hearts of the impure. Phoenix tears have powerful healing properties.
*The phoenix gains an XXXX rating not because it is aggressive, but because very few wizards have ever succeeded in domesticating it.

Unicorn:
M.O.M. Classification XXXX
The unicorn is a beautiful beast found throughout the forests of northern Europe. It is a pure white, horned horse when fully grown, though the foals are initially golden and turn silver before acheivving maturity. The unicorn's horn, blood and hair all have highly magical properties. It generally avoids human contact, is more likely to allow a witch to approach it than a wizard, and is so fleet of foot that it is very difficult to capture.

Dragon:
M.O.M. Classification XXXXX
Probably the most famous of all magical beasts, dragons are among the most difficult to hide.The female is generally larger and more aggressive than the male, though neither should be approached by any but highly skilled and trained wizards. Dragon hide, blood, heart, liver and horn all have highly magical properties, but dragon eggs are defined as Class A Non-Tradeable Goods. There are ten breeds of dragon, though these have been known to interbreed on occasion, producing rare hybrids.
Do you think the type of dragon would have an impact on the heartstring wand core?

thanks BabyWerewolf for looking that up. I also wondered about the different dragon breeds--if that matters for the dragon heartstring, but I also didn't go too much into that because this is a Fawkes/Snape thread, but it's probably an interesting line of inquiry!

:welcome: BabyWerewolf!

Thanks for looking up all that wonderful stuff for us. Now I am wondering about the different breeds of dragons...*ponders*

hpfan101, Snape is the grey, the middle one, so it makes sense for him not to have a Fawkes feather but to still have a phoenix feather wand core. It keeps him firmly in the middle this way-he's still like Harry and Voldemort in that he has a phoenix feather but is unlike them in that it is not from Fawkes. Does that make sense?

As for Harry and Snape having similair childhoods, I think it is pretty clear that they did. Both came from abusive enviornments (I dare anyone to say that Durselys are not abusive-I work with kids treated like or worse than Harry) and both were bullied at school. I am strongly reminded of after witnessing SWM's, did Harry for a moment, to his complete horror, realize that he knew exactly how Snape felt. Harry was bullied at home by Dudley and at school by Dudley and his gang.

Thanks so much, BabyWerewolf! As it is, I haven't even had time to peek in here, much less find a book and post quotes.

For what it's worth, I'm rather sure that the type of dragon would impact the heartstring core at least a bit, but again, that isn't really part of this thread.

There's also the quote from Dumbledore (?) about unicorn blood providing a half life, a cursed life. I'm not so sure how the parts add up to the sum of the creature, but it's food for thought.

The Phoenix can disappear and reappear at will. Did Dumbledore benefit from that ability, as in side-by-side apparation? Could Snape or Harry "share" that ability, if Fawkes allows them?

It's almost funny when you think that in the first few books we looked at Snape and saw a mean proffesor that sought every opportunity to get Harry expelled. And now he is part of the TRIANGLE... :eyebrows:

Snape's wand core being a phoenix feather would further more inforce the bond that has been created between these three major characters. The similarities have been discussed so many times that it's useless to remind them, but in HBP the emphasise is placed on Harry and Snape (there are several scenes in which they act in similar ways and react the same, I'll be back with the quotes ).

The Phoenix can disappear and reappear at will. Did Dumbledore benefit from that ability, as in side-by-side apparation? Could Snape or Harry "share" that ability, if Fawkes allows them?


About "sharing" these abilities; apparently Harry did very well on his first try with DD at his side, and Snape is shown several times as Apparating or Disapparating "by the book". And when we mention DD we can be sure there's a link. Let's not count the times he Disapparated in front of someone from the Ministry ;)

A silly question popped into my head: the wand core can tell us about the character of that particular person, so it's fair to say it can tell us what his reactions would be in different situations. let's take Harry for example: in GOF he chooses to face Voldemort instead of running away. Could this mean that Snape would react much the same if he were given the choice between saving his own skin or saving his honour (perhaps by sacrificing himself for the others)?

Do we know what Snape's wand core holds?

Is it possible that spider webbing could be used as a core for a wand.

No I really do not know what Snape's wand core actually is. I can not see it as a phoenix feather or dragon heart strings (like Krums wand) and unicorn seems out of the question.

Then again Hermione did say that Snape and Harry where very similar. So it could be that Snape has a phoenix feather in his wand from another phoenix.

Fawkes did not come to Snape's aid though and well Buckbeak attacked Snape like he did when attacking Draco. Then again if Snape was loyal to Fawkes then Fawkes might have gone to Snape to ease any pain he might have over what he was made to do. Fawkes seemed to know something was happening that year, the strange noises that Harry noted coming from Fawkes suggested that Fawkes new Dumbledore was going to die in way and how much this would affect Harry.

We gave never seen Fawkes and Snape interact.

To be honest I see Fawkes healing Harry every time he gets hurt from some of the nasty protections that surround each Horcrux; that or Fawkes healing Snape from any retribution from Harry. That would make Harry stand back a bit.

The idea of Fawkes healing Snape after Harry has done something to him is one that I love as well. Especially if Harry is injured too and Fawkes heals Snape first and then moves on to Harry.

Oh man. If Fawkes went to Snape first and then Harry...can you even imagine the look on Harry's face?

I have great pleasure imagining it. It would be a big "whack over the head" clue that Snape was always loyal to Dumbledore, even more so than Harry, and that he is on the good side. I live in hope that this scene will be somewhere in the final book.

Oh man. If Fawkes went to Snape first and then Harry...can you even imagine the look on Harry's face?No I can't :lol:, but I bet he wouldn't be too happy about that... :p

My best guess would be a combination of these 2 faces: :upset: :grumble: ...

I was thinking more of these two myself. :no: :wow:

I have great pleasure imagining it. It would be a big "whack over the head" clue that Snape was always loyal to Dumbledore, even more so than Harry, and that he is on the good side. I live in hope that this scene will be somewhere in the final book.

So do I, it would be nice to see that happening in book 7... :clap:

It would be evidence that even Harry would have a hard time arguing against-even though I am sure he will try.

"OMG. Snape's using the Imperious Curse on Fawkes!"

He would probably deny that it is Fawkes at all - must be another bird or a death eater in disguise.

Seriously though I would hope that there would be enough clues up to this point for Harry to be at least questioning Snape and wondering if he had made a mistake and then Fawkes being the final bit of evidence he needs.

It would be evidence that even Harry would have a hard time arguing against-even though I am sure he will try.

"OMG. Snape's using the Imperious Curse on Fawkes!"

I can see that... that's Harry to us, a big stubborn pain :p, will he ever learn... :rolleyes: :lol:

He would probably deny that it is Fawkes at all - must be another bird or a death eater in disguise.

Seriously though I would hope that there would be enough clues up to this point for Harry to be at least questioning Snape and wondering if he had made a mistake and then Fawkes being the final bit of evidence he needs.I bet he would do that... I hope that there is too, hopefully he will go and do this in book 7, after he does somemore growing up ;).

Yes, Harry has definitely got to grow up some more and learn forgiveness before he can truly be able to accept Snape. Not even Fawkes will be able to help him with that.

Yes, Harry has definitely got to grow up some more and learn forgiveness before he can truly be able to accept Snape. Not even Fawkes will be able to help him with that.

I agree, in order to even have half a chance at defeating Voldemort with the power of love, he has to do that in order to empty his heart of most of the hatred and animosity that he has towards him.

Can Harry actually grow up? :huh: Doubt that somehow, he has serious catching up to do ...

The idea of Fawkes healing Snape after Harry has done something to him is one that I love as well. Especially if Harry is injured too and Fawkes heals Snape first and then moves on to Harry.


...pure pleasure... :evil: Harry needs a lesson, and I love the idea that Snape will be the one teaching it to Harry.

Definitely.

I think that Fawkes and the trait of a phoenix of being re-born and starting over might also be symbolic of Harry starting over in his assessment of Snape. Sorry forgot to mention that before.

The idea of re-birth is something that can, at least in my opinion, be literal as in the case of Fawkes itself, or symbolic, as it would be in this case.

Definitely.

I think that Fawkes and the trait of a phoenix of being re-born and starting over might also be symbolic of Harry starting over in his assessment of Snape. Sorry forgot to mention that before.

The idea of re-birth is something that can, at least in my opinion, be literal as in the case of Fawkes itself, or symbolic, as it would be in this case.

Hmm... interesting theory that you have there LouisaB. That would be interesting to see if that happens in book 7... ;)

Can Harry actually grow up? :huh: Doubt that somehow, he has serious catching up to do ...



...pure pleasure... :evil: Harry needs a lesson, and I love the idea that Snape will be the one teaching it to Harry.
So do I, that in and of itself, would make the last book all the more interesting to read :clap:.

I don't know why I have the impression that the last book will focus on the relationship between Snape and Harry... And that Fawkes will play, of course, a big role in all this.
There are so many things that need to be cleared up about these two, that I think a separate novel is in order. :p

It's in moments like these that I realise how much I want to hold that final book in my hands... :D

I don't know why I have the impression that the last book will focus on the relationship between Snape and Harry... And that Fawkes will play, of course, a big role in all this.
There are so many things that need to be cleared up about these two, that I think a separate novel is in order. :p

It's in moments like these that I realise how much I want to hold that final book in my hands... :D

I think that this is called wishful thinking but with a lot of hints and clues from JKR to give us reason to hope.

I am going to be surprised if she fits everything into one book. I am still holding out for her to do a Gabaldon and say there will be another book after all. That particular author is responsible for another series which has the "old world trilogy" and the "new world trilogy" except by the end of book 5 she had to announce that due to the amount of story still left to tell there were going to be two more books instead of just one.

Of course JKR fills everything into one school year so it is very unlikely - but the final book will have to be the longest yet and postively huge to answer all the questions.

I'd like to see a little less Harry bashing in this thread. And to be honest I'm not sure how different it is from the Snape!Hero thread in History of Magic at this point.

Consider this thread on probation for the moment.

The idea of Fawkes healing Snape after Harry has done something to him is one that I love as well. Especially if Harry is injured too and Fawkes heals Snape first and then moves on to Harry.I think it would be even more dramatic if during a confrontation between Harry and Snape, Fawkes came to the rescue, and protected Snape and not Harry.
I think this would be the final revelation that would allow Harry to finally put together all of the pieces of information that he has learned about Snape, but has basicall ignored.

Alrighty then. Let us return to the orginal topic of the thread.

The idea was that Fawkes' leaving was linked to everyone's faith in Dumbledore was shattered. Understandably so-I mean look at what just happened. And people's trust in Dumbledore was wavering. Dumbledore had trusted Snape, people trusted Dumbledore so they trusted Snape. Lupin went back on the words he spoke at Christmas.

I was wondering, did JK Rowling say that we would see Fawkes in book 7?

I am fairly sure that she did. I don't see how we can not.

A lot of emphasise has been placed on trust, we've seen this throughout the series; DD explicitly asks for Harry to trust him when they venture into the cave, and not only. And we know that Fawkes can sense who is loyal to DD; but being loyal also means to trust another's decisions and respect them... And the others forgot about the trust that DD had in Severus when they learned what happened on the Tower, and that must've appeared to Fawkes as a lack of loyality.

And we know that Fawkes can sense who is loyal to DD; but being loyal also means to trust another's decisions and respect them... And the others forgot about the trust that DD had in Severus when they learned what happened on the Tower, and that must've appeared to Fawkes as a lack of loyality.
Do we know for sure that Fawkes can sense loyality?
I might be missing something, but I thought that is just a theory.

Well, I don't think that we've heard in so many words that Fawkes can sense loyalty, but Dumbledore does say something along the lines of only extremely loyalty to [him] would have called Fawkes to Harry in the Chamber. So, like most animals, Fawkes must be able to sense some human emotions, akin to dogs being able to sense/smell fear in a person.

Well, I don't think that we've heard in so many words that Fawkes can sense loyalty, but Dumbledore does say something along the lines of only extremely loyalty to [him] would have called Fawkes to Harry in the Chamber. So, like most animals, Fawkes must be able to sense some human emotions, akin to dogs being able to sense/smell fear in a person.
That's right, I forgot about how Fawkes came to help Harry in the Chamber. What I was thinking of is Fawkes' cries and songs being a clue to who is loyal or not.

Maybe it is part of Fawkes' magic that he can sense loyalty. Or maybe he is just extra-perceptive.

Do we know for sure that Fawkes can sense loyality?
I might be missing something, but I thought that is just a theory.
In GOF Fawkes was present in a meeting with Fudge and fake Moody without recognising the duplicity of the latter. I take that as proof that Fawkes can’t sense real loyalty to Dumbledore. It’s also hard to believe that Fawkes would never have met Quirrell, though we have no proof of that.

Besides: it would be rather disappointing in a way. The beauty (or one of the beauties) of Dumbledore’s characters is his trusting, his assessment people. If this trusting is (partial) replaced with Fawkes “telling” him who is loyal part of Dumbledore’s strength is made redundant.

What about Hagrid? Dumbledore affirms that he trusts Hagrid with his life. I wonder if Fawkes at some point aided Hagrid because of Hagrid's loyalty to Dumbledore? We don't know much about why Dumbledore decided to trust Hagrid and keep Hagrid on as a gameskeeper after Hagrid got expelled.
Good point. (Sorry, I haven't been able to keep up with this thread) Hagrid would be the best possibility for Fawkes to have aided. I don't know if Fawkes is the reason for Snape's "ironclad" loyalty and Dumbledore's reason to believe in him. I tend to think that the remorse he felt was more toward something that had to do with Lily or purely selfish reasons. But, that's for whole other thread. :D

I agree with you, stainw. Dumbledore's character is that he trusts people and that he believes in second chances. Perhaps Fawkes sees who is loyal to him and becomes loyal to them.

I think Dumbledore's ironclad reason for trusting Snape is also beyond Fawkes. He gave Dumbledore a mighty good reason-whatever it was-and Dumbledore believed him. Then, Fawkes sensing Snape was sincere, came over to Snape's side.

Just to clarify... I'm not suggesting that Fawkes is some sort of loyalty sensor, as in the cat scan joke where the vet has the cat walk by the ailing dog to "scan" it.

1. It all started out with aislin's wonderful theory on Fawkes and the significance of the time of his leaving Hogwarts. Make sure you check out the first post of the old thread (link in the opening post of this thread)!
2. This is definitely no prerequisite for posting on this thread, but somehow we all seemed to agree that Snape is on the right side, although he sure is an unlikeable, mean git. (This led to the formation of SIGS - the Snape Is Good Society. You can add it to your signature, if you like.)
3. On the assumption that Snape is basically good, we wondered whether Fawkes could have gone to him after leaving Hogwarts (and why - maybe to comfort him?) and where else, if not.
4. In relation to this we discussed the effects seeing Fawkes with Snape would have on different people, like Voldemort and, most importantly, Harry. We agreed that it would be a visible proof of Snape's loyalty. And just imagine the dramatic possibilities of that final encounter including both Snape and Fawkes!
5. Somewhere we brought Hagrid into the picture. Does he know more than we thought (e.g. having overheard that conversation between Snape and Dumbledore in the forest in HBP)? Does he keep any secrets for DD? Hagrid did always seem to trust Snape more than others did. Only think of his utter disbelief when Harry first tells him Snape had killed Dumbledore.
6. The relationship Dumbledore-Fawkes: owner-pet or trusting friends? Was Fawkes domesticated by Dumbledore or did he choose to stay with him? Can Fawkes be inherited by anyone?
7. Is loyalty the same thing as blind trust? (I.e. can Harry still be considered loyal to Dumbledore even though he believes Dumbledore was wrong in trusting Snape? Most of us said yes.)
8. Fawkes's squawk when Harry voiced his anger at Snape in DD's office and its possible meanings.
9. The events of that fateful night when Snape killed Dumbledore, including the question: Why did Fawkes stay out of the scene on the Astronomy Tower? He was there in an instant during the battle at the Ministry in OotP, after all.
10. The characteristics of phoenixes and the properties of their feathers.


1.didnt see the old thread
2.i prefer to believe that snape is working for himself
3.well undoubtedly fawkes is more loyal to dumbledore than snape so fawkes wouldnt be loyal to him,so i dont think he went to comfort snape,maybe it went away to comfort himself
4.i would hate to see them pair up and to me it is not possible
5.i think hagrid was the bonder for snape and dumbledores unbreakable vow
6.i think the relationship was similar to LV-nagini,but in a good way,and the inheritance situation is similar to the one of Kreacher-Harry,if dumbledore put it in his will,assuming he had one and fawkes was basically bound to dumbledore,whoever fawkes was entrusted to owns fawkes
7.no it is not.they are 2 totally different things
8.it is beacuse he was yelling AT Dumbledore,not because it was about snape,or maybe fawkes was startled by harry's yelling
9.maybe Dumbledore told Fawkes not to come unless he called him,and he was at the Ministry because i belive he knew Dumbledore was coming
10.phoenix's are loyal,beautiful no doubt,rare,healing emotionally and physically,bringers of hope,and i think feathers are a powerful magical substance like unicorn blood(im not saying they have the same uses)

Thanks to whoever posted the summary of this thread so far, that Quent just quoted. This is my first time looking in after someone in the Snape the Hero thread mentioned the theory that Fawkes has gone to Snape. I find this really intriguing and am trying to find out more about it.

:welcome: Quent and Snape_Redemptor.

I realize it's a very belated welcome as I have not been around.

I was thinking the other day about the link between Dumbledore and phoenixes. Fawkes is a phoenix so though this is slightly off-topic, it's not a full-blown meander.

Dumbledore is surrounded by phoenix imagery. From his pet to his patronus to the phoenix Harry saw rise out of the smoke at his funeral. What if Snape's boggart-that Jo is so loathe to tell us-was a phoenix?

Just a random transisnent thought I had.

:welcome: Quent and Snape_Redemptor.

I realize it's a very belated welcome as I have not been around.

I was thinking the other day about the link between Dumbledore and phoenixes. Fawkes is a phoenix so though this is slightly off-topic, it's not a full-blown meander.

Dumbledore is surrounded by phoenix imagery. From his pet to his patronus to the phoenix Harry saw rise out of the smoke at his funeral. What if Snape's boggart-that Jo is so loathe to tell us-was a phoenix?

Just a random transisnent thought I had.


Interesting idea! Wouldn't that make Voldermort suspicious!

:welcome: Quent and Snape_Redemptor.

I realize it's a very belated welcome as I have not been around.

I was thinking the other day about the link between Dumbledore and phoenixes. Fawkes is a phoenix so though this is slightly off-topic, it's not a full-blown meander.

Dumbledore is surrounded by phoenix imagery. From his pet to his patronus to the phoenix Harry saw rise out of the smoke at his funeral. What if Snape's boggart-that Jo is so loathe to tell us-was a phoenix?

Just a random transisnent thought I had.

Hmm... interesting thought aislin!! Maybe it is... but I tend to think that it has something to do with either James or his (Snape's) father.

I dont think it would make LV suspicious if his boggart was a phoenix, because that would mean he's scared of Dumbledore.
However it would be suspicious if Snapes patronus and not boggart were a phoenix

I dont think it would make LV suspicious if his boggart was a phoenix, because that would mean he's scared of Dumbledore.
However it would be suspicious if Snapes patronus and not boggart were a phoenix

I agree on that one, snape-rulz!! He would most certainly be suspicious if Snapes patronus were a phoenix :agree:...

i agree, it would be VERY suspicious.
But i wonder if there is any reason voldie would have to know this sort of thing.
Patronus' are only really used against dementors, and the dementors are on Voldemorts side.

Jo

:welcome: Quent and Snape_Redemptor.

I realize it's a very belated welcome as I have not been around.

I was thinking the other day about the link between Dumbledore and phoenixes. Fawkes is a phoenix so though this is slightly off-topic, it's not a full-blown meander.

Dumbledore is surrounded by phoenix imagery. From his pet to his patronus to the phoenix Harry saw rise out of the smoke at his funeral. What if Snape's boggart-that Jo is so loathe to tell us-was a phoenix?

Just a random transisnent thought I had.
Very off topic, but Dumbledore could be an Animagus and can turn into a phoenix. Fits all the stuff about him.

Very off topic, but Dumbledore could be an Animagus and can turn into a phoenix. Fits all the stuff about him.

Possibly, but Hermione looked up all registered Animagus (which I think if Dumbledore were one, he would be registered) and didn't mention his name. And being as they were only seven people on the list, I think she'd have mentioned it.

Well, Dumbledore could be unregistered. Simple as that.

Well, Dumbledore could be unregistered. Simple as that.

That's what I was thinking too... seems like him to do something like that :p ;).

Hmmm. I wonder what Snape's boggart would be? Voldemort ruling the world? I don't know... Patronus I think would be something that had to do with Lily, perhaps a fox with almond eyes...

Dumbledore's Patronus is a Phoenix... but strangely, we've never heard of wizards being Animagi of magical creatures. No dragons, griffins, phoenixes, or basilisks- only beetles, stags, rats, dogs, and cats.

Not sure if this should really go here, but after a brief search of the forums for "Dumbledore's Scar", nothing came up that I could find.

What if Snape gave DD the scare above his knee while he was a student at Hogwarts? If so, what if DD and SS now have a connection similar to (but of course not as strong as) Harry and LV?

It would explain partly why DD defended and trusted Snape so unwaveringly. This may also have something to do with Fawkes disappearance, as I believe that Fawkes went with Snape and is now his pet or at the very least, will help him out and/or watch over him in DH. This of course assumes that Snape is a good guy and he still has complete faith in DD, unlike most if not all of the students/staff at Hogwarts at the end of HBP.

Thoughts?

Hermione only looked up the register for the past centery and isnt Dumbledore older than 100