Fawkes and Snape v2

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Welcome everybody to a new version of this thread :)

Fawkes is the symbol of loyalty to Dumbledore. He comes to Harry in CoS because Harry has said that Dumbledore, not Voldemort, is the greatest wizard in the world. Also, in CoS, Dumbledore says that he will never be gone from Hogwarts as long as those who remain are loyal to him. What happens after Dumbledore's death? Fawkes leaves the castle. Noticably, Fawkes leaves after singing a song, during which those who remained have already decieded against Snape. Now, if you are truly loyal to Dumbledore, does that mean that you have faith in his descions, even if you don't always understand them? Lupin said at Christmas that "It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do, therefore, I trust Severus", but how quickly does he jump to the conclusion that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape and that Snape is evil? Immedialty after hearing Harry's account of the Tower. In fact, no one sticks up for Snape. No one. How soon after the Tower incident does Harry start to question Dumbledore's judgements? And not just Harry, everyone. Yes, how they reacted is how anyone would react. But, all the unwavering faith in Dumbledore was gone, an in that instant, Fawkes left.

Fawkes' name comes from Guy Fawkes who tried to blow up Parliament in 1605. The plot was to kill the king James I, the Prince of Wales and as many members of Parliament as possbile. The plot was hatched because Guy Fawkes and crew were Catholic at a time when England was heavily Protestant. They had hoped that James I (James VI in Scotland, he became James I of England and thus the United Kingdom began because Elizabeth I had no children and he was the son of her cousin) would be more tolerant of Catholics because his mother, Mary Queen of Scots, was Catholic. They got hold of 36 barrels of gunpowder and stored them in the cellars of the House of Lords (English Parliament has 2 houses; the House of Lords and the House of Commons). The day before the plan was to go into action, several of the members in on the plot had second thoughts and are belived to have sent a letter warning friends not to go to Parliament the next day. The letter reached the king who had Guy Fawkes arrested, tortured and executed. To this day, on November 5 (the day the plot was foiled in 1605), Bonfire Night is celebrated (in book 1, the news reporters refer to Bonfire Night) and all over Britain, people celebrate the botched plan to blow up Parliament. Depending on whose side you take, Guy Fawkes is either a traitor or a hero (much like our own Severus Snape).

Fawkes is a phoenix who dies in flames and then is reborn through the ashes-a very fitting parrellel to someone who tried to blow up Parliament.

Hagrid plays a pivotal role during the aftermath of the Tower. I think that his first reaction is interesting. He does not want to believe Harry (who does?) but I think that after he saw Dumbledore's body, the reality set in. He first tells Harry that he could not have seen that (just like in PS/SS when he told the trio that Snape was one of the professor guarding the stone) but once he saw Dumbledore's body, Hagrid knew he was dead. Hagrid was not in the hospital wing at the time, he was moving Dumbledore's body. When he rejoins Harry, Professor McGonagall, et all, he makes no mention of Snape just that he has moved the body and thinks that Hogwarts should remain open. It is during this time that Fawkes' song goes unheard; maybe Fawkes has akready left. Harry only notices the lack of the song when he leaves the office.

I do not think Dumbledore would be angry with anyone for reacting the way that they did, he would have understood it as human nature (which it is) but I do think he would have been slightly disappointed that everyone's faith in Snape was gone in an instant. Dumbledore has such high regard for people that I don't think he would understand why people sided against Snape. The evidence is over-whelming. However, eye witness testimony has been proven in courts not to always be 100% accurate (look at the Muggle testimonies that landed Sirius in Azkaban for 12 years). Yes, Harry did see Snape cast the Avada Kedavra curse, there is no denying that, but there may be stuff he did not see (the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore the moments before it happened for one example). If Harry was put on the witness stand, the cross examiner would point out Harry's pre-existing bias against Snape in an effort to poke holes in Harry's testimony.

I think Fawkes' leaving is very symbolic. Maybe he did just leave because his master was dead. Fawkes is, after all, a very loyal pet. But I think there is more to Fawkes' leaving-the timing of it makes me wonder why.

When Fawkes chooses to come back into the story should be a pivital moment. I think Fawkes will come back once Harry has discovered the truth about Snape and trusts him as much as Dumbeldore did. He may be hovering around but will not interact with Harry until Harry trusts Snape and by doing so, trusts Dumbledore's judgements again.

I would just like to thank the wonderful posters who are too many to name (you know who you are )who have watched this idea grow and develop over the many threads we frequent together.

First thread: Fawkes and Snape (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=90302)

I noticed that as well bharadhia2000. The very fact that he did that isn't a very good sign for the Order. Hopefully he will be at Snape's side when Harry goes and tries to kill him; and then maybe, just maybe, he will realize whose side Snape is really on ;) .

okay If this has been said before then just ignore me...

My question is...because of this...non- loyalty to Dumbledore within the school....does that mean that Fawkes went to a loyal supporter. Now there will be plenty of speculation I'm sure of where Fawkes went. But is is possible that if Snape is really not evil that Fawkes went to Snape because he is a loyal supporter.

Thanks for responding to my ponderings, guys. :cool:
I think if there had been a plan to arm the chosen one with the wand with the Phoenix feather then that would have been the first one Ollivander brought out. He seemed surprised that Harry's wand was the one that had a feather from the same bird as Voldemort's -I don't think Dumbledore would tell Mr. Ollivander any more about the prophecy that was not public knowledge. Ollivander also knows that wands choose the wizard, so he did not want to force the situation (and his destiny) on any new client coming to his shop. Now that I think about it, Harry was just the Boy Who Lived back then. Why assume that the brother wand was correct for the victim?

Ollivander was probably waiting for another potential powerful wizard to claim or be chosen by the brother wand. It was big news to report to Dumbledore that the Boy who Lived is the one that selected the second Fawkes wand. Harry did not become the Chosen One until the newspaper started calling him that years later. Right?
The wand 'chose' Harry because of the 'magical traces' left by its brother wand, when it gave Harry the scar.This is how I have always thougth about it. :tu:
And did you notice, one other wand that Harry tried also had a phoenix feather as a wand core? Is there another phoenix flying around somewhere?cringing, and blushing furiously: No. I did not notice this. Wow.

I wonder how long the wands could sit in the shop unsold? Peeling gold letters ever the door read Ollivanders: Makers of Fine Wands since 382 B.C. Potentially the wands could be very old, waiting for the right wizard to come and buy them. Where was this other phoenix, indeed???

I don't know about that. As you pointed out yourself, Ollivander did not expect Harry to be chosen by that particular wand and it was a while before he even tried it. Surely, if they had intended this wand to balance the power of Voldemort's, Ollivander would have looked more actively for an appropriate wizard for this wand and tried it on any witch or wizard entering his shop? :lol: Of course, we don't know about that. Since we were pondering the possible gap in time of the giving of the feathers, I was wondering if there were a purpose to Fawkes deciding to "give" another one.

Mr. Ollivander seems to have a feel for measuring and sizing up the young wizards, then offering them wands to try that might work. He knew that the first Fawkes wand chose a wizard that has done great things, and the second would too. Trying it out on the endless streams of new students through his shop every fall would be pointless. Perhaps he had rather given up hoping the wand would choose someone within in 50-100 years of its creation. But since Harry was so hard to fit, it occurred to him to try it, just to see. And the wand responded.

"Maple and phoenix feather. Seven inches. Quite whippy"

But he does also say on the page before that "No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons or phoenixes are quite the same." So we know of 3 phoenix feather wands: Yew and Fawkes feather, Holly and Fawkes feather, and Maple and ? phoenix feather.

If Voldemort is looking for another wand that would work against Harry's, would he want another phoenix feather wand from another bird???? Humm.

And with that let the discussion continue :)

I never thought that it really mattered who the other phoenix was. Ollivander supplies most new students with wands. He's probably taken feathers from hundreds of birds.

How about a synopsis of the main points: I read about 8 pages but too too long. Please.

Oh, and Fawkes would lament the death of Dumbledore even if it was not true, so as to help the ruse.

Most of the lore concerning the Phoenix say that only one bird is alive at a time in the world. While we are not sure that this is true in JKR's world, it would mean that there are not 100's of birds to give feathers.

Wow, version 2! I was so shocked at first, when I saw that little "closed" sign next to the old thread... :lol:

OK, back on topic.

How about a synopsis of the main points: I read about 8 pages but too too long. Please.
I'll try a short summary of the most important points already discussed for our newcomers (in no particular order and surely not exhaustive).

1. It all started out with aislin's wonderful theory on Fawkes and the significance of the time of his leaving Hogwarts. Make sure you check out the first post of the old thread (link in the opening post of this thread)!
2. This is definitely no prerequisite for posting on this thread, but somehow we all seemed to agree that Snape is on the right side, although he sure is an unlikeable, mean git. (This led to the formation of SIGS - the Snape Is Good Society. You can add it to your signature, if you like.)
3. On the assumption that Snape is basically good, we wondered whether Fawkes could have gone to him after leaving Hogwarts (and why - maybe to comfort him?) and where else, if not.
4. In relation to this we discussed the effects seeing Fawkes with Snape would have on different people, like Voldemort and, most importantly, Harry. We agreed that it would be a visible proof of Snape's loyalty. And just imagine the dramatic possibilities of that final encounter including both Snape and Fawkes!
5. Somewhere we brought Hagrid into the picture. Does he know more than we thought (e.g. having overheard that conversation between Snape and Dumbledore in the forest in HBP)? Does he keep any secrets for DD? Hagrid did always seem to trust Snape more than others did. Only think of his utter disbelief when Harry first tells him Snape had killed Dumbledore.
6. The relationship Dumbledore-Fawkes: owner-pet or trusting friends? Was Fawkes domesticated by Dumbledore or did he choose to stay with him? Can Fawkes be inherited by anyone?
7. Is loyalty the same thing as blind trust? (I.e. can Harry still be considered loyal to Dumbledore even though he believes Dumbledore was wrong in trusting Snape? Most of us said yes.;))
8. Fawkes's squawk when Harry voiced his anger at Snape in DD's office and its possible meanings.
9. The events of that fateful night when Snape killed Dumbledore, including the question: Why did Fawkes stay out of the scene on the Astronomy Tower? He was there in an instant during the battle at the Ministry in OotP, after all.
10. The characteristics of phoenixes and the properties of their feathers.

OK, those are the ten points that came to my mind immediately. I'll look through the old thread when I get the chance and add more if I come across any more major points (and I'm almost sure I will). If you think anything else should be added, feel free to tell me so. :)

Wow, I've been on CoS for sometime now and rarely have I seen threads blossom and go into another version so quickly :tu:

I've gone through most of the posts and everything that I wanted to say has pretty much been said; let me go put on my thinking hat and I'll be back with theories!

I've gone through most of the posts and everything that I wanted to say has pretty much been said; let me go put on my thinking hat and I'll be back with theories!
So, Frenullus, come up with anything yet? We'll be interested to hear it!

Wow! Version 2 already!! I am unable to get to my computer for a few days and look what happens.

:welcome: Brigitte,LeQuibbler and Frenullus.

Thanks for the recap, Maginny. I was going to go through the old version to a) catch up on all the great work you have done in my absence (so sad I missed so much) and b) attempt to make a summary but you beat me to the punch. Which is just fine with me.

Most of the lore concerning the Phoenix say that only one bird is alive at a time in the world. While we are not sure that this is true in JKR's world...it isn't likely that there is only one phoenix at a time in the Potterverse. Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them lists phoenixes in three locations: Egypt, India and China. Ollivander makes wands with only three cores, phoenix feather being one of them. He can't have feathers only from Fawkes (already demonstrated in the last version of this thread) so there must be at least one other phoenix from which to gather feathers. Nothing in the listing of FB&***T suggests there is only one phoenix, nor that only a single pair exists.

JKR admits that she pulls creatures from myths/legends, but gives them a tweak/twist to make them her own. It seems that one of the "twists" is to have more than one phoenix alive at a time...at least to me, it does! :)

[Off topic: Why didn't Hagrid use Fawkes in a Care of Magical Creatures lesson?]
Wow, I've been on CoS for sometime now and rarely have I seen threads blossom and go into another version so quickly :lol: It's clear that you missed the "Love Thread" days. :elaugh:

:lol: It's clear that you missed the "Love Thread" days. :elaugh:

Pity, I hear it was loads of fun :elaugh:

So, Frenullus, come up with anything yet? We'll be interested to hear it!

Keep your hat on Maginny, I still have mine on (i.e my thinking hat) ;). Havn't come up with anything new yet, although I can say at this point that the Fawkes-confirming-loyalties theory is a darn good one :tu:

And thanks Aislin for the very warm welcome :).

Hey, aislin! I had been missing you. Glad you are back (with a new avatar, too)! Are you in the new batch at Hogsmeade? Congratulations!

JKR admits that she pulls creatures from myths/legends, but gives them a tweak/twist to make them her own. It seems that one of the "twists" is to have more than one phoenix alive at a time..Ah, but that is what makes the chase here so much fun. Figuring out the twists! I agree, yet they do, so far, appear to be rare.

Off topic: Why didn't Hagrid use Fawkes in a Care of Magical Creatures lesson?]Off hand, I'd say because Fawkes is too smart to be manhandled by a clumsy giant. :lol:

Fawkes' leaving at that precise moment will probably come into Snape's defence when the time comes. Perhaps, after the short holiday at Privet Drive, Harry will remember what Dumbledore said (about Fawkes and his connection with the people loyal to him) and, if he doesn't figure out its importance, at least mention the fact to Hermione - we are all counting on her to put the pieces together and prove Snape's innocence...

:welcome: alex2moony!

we are all counting on her to put the pieces together and prove Snape's innocence...

Hermione's line about evil being a strong word has stuck with me every since my first reading of HBP. If anyone can figure it out, it will be Hermione.

Yes, Harry won't listen because he is so emotionally charged with hatred towards Snape, it will blind him from what Hermione can figure out.

Congrats on version 2, aislin. Glad to see you are back. And....congrats on Hogsmeade!

Yes, Harry won't listen because he is so emotionally charged with hatred towards Snape, it will blind him from what Hermione can figure out.
I have a feeling, that when (if) Harry sees Fawkes with Snape, it still won't sink in.

I have a feeling, that when (if) Harry sees Fawkes with Snape, it still won't sink in.

I am new to this thread, but it sounds really intresting, so I decided to stop in! :)

I also agree that if Snape sees Fawkes by Snape, that wouldn't sink in for Harry. But perhaps by seeing something in action, such as by Fawkes helping Snape or vice versa, that would prove Snape's loyalty.

thanks for the welcome, aislin!
I agree, Harry is too full of hatred to spot even the most obvious clues, including Fawkes being at Snape's side. I have a scene in my head, which would be so interesting to see: Harry attacking Snape and trying to kill/hurt him, and at that precise moment, Fawkes to fly in front of Snape and shield him. You can't get more obvious than that...

:welcome: Eric_Cartman and HP4evr1807!

I have a scene in my head, which would be so interesting to see: Harry attacking Snape and trying to kill/hurt him, and at that precise moment, Fawkes to fly in front of Snape and shield him

That was a very popular vision in the previous version for several posters (myself included). Harry is going to need all the evidence he can get and Fawkes helping out Snape in any shape, way or fashion, will be the visible proof that even Harry won't be able to arge with-try as he may.

Jo beat us over the head with Dumbledore trusting Snape. I don't think the consant repition of that theme was solely to blindslide us with the end of HBP-it was stressed for another reason which I believe will play a major role in book 7.

I have a scene in my head, which would be so interesting to see: Harry attacking Snape and trying to kill/hurt him, and at that precise moment, Fawkes to fly in front of Snape and shield him. You can't get more obvious than that...That was a very popular vision in the previous version for several posters (myself included). Harry is going to need all the evidence he can get and Fawkes helping out Snape in any shape, way or fashion, will be the visible proof that even Harry won't be able to arge with-try as he may.

Jo beat us over the head with Dumbledore trusting Snape. I don't think the consant repition of that theme was solely to blindslide us with the end of HBP-it was stressed for another reason which I believe will play a major role in book 7.
Welcome alex2moony! Yes, that was popular, and I hope it still is. It is going to take a lot for Harry to rethink all things concerning Snape.

aislin, I don't think Jo would have stressed the fact that Dumbledore trusts(ed) Snape if there wasn't something to it. I don't think Dumbledore was an 'old fool'. Yes, he made mistakes. I don't think he is (was) in Snape's case.

thanks maebelle!
I agree with what you and aislin said about the constant "I trust Severus Snape!" line. We were ever-so frequently reminded about DD's trust for Snape for a reason. And we shall find about it in tha last book.
Also, i believe that the well-known line "In fact, being - forgive me - rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.", which most of the people against Snape have based their theories on, is there to mislead us into assuming that trusting Snape was perhaps the biggest mistake of them all.
When we look at it from an objective point of view (I wonder who could that?) and place all the pieces together, there is only one conclusion to be drawn: SNAPE IS INNOCENT! (I just love saying that!...)

I don't believe we will here from Fawkes much until the end of book 7. phoenix(s) are independent solitary creatures. Fawkes will not go to Snape, it might blow his cover. JKR's imagery is that the phoenix is a creature of trust. Harry must go through a lot of head stuff to lead him back to Dumbledore. He must come to the realization that he was used by Dumbledore and Snape to achieve the ultimate goal of defeting evil. Balance, balance, balance. JK uses this throught her books. Good blood, bad blood, mirror images, the pheonix and the snake.

Once Harry comes to terms that Dumbledore used him, his blood mixing with LV's blood is the only way, he will be able to feel love for Dumbledore again. I believe that this will call Fawkes to him at a critical moment. The sond of the phoenix will again fill Harry's heart with love (very unbearable for thos who only know hate and evil

JK will reveal to us the magical need of the bloods mixing. Dumbledore and Snape planned this mixing as a way of balance. Harry was put in danger many times by Dumbledore. Dumbledore could have stopped, but did not , for the greater plan. I think this is why Snape was getting tired of it. Perhaps when the gleam of triumph plan is revealed, and Harry realizes what the greater plan was for, Fawkes wil come to his aid and possibly kill Nagini(possible horcrus)- once again balance .

Boy that was a mouthful!

I don't believe we will here from Fawkes much until the end of book 7.

I think we will see Fawkes first in book 7 at the time we learn more about Dumbledore's personal story. And I think this will be pretty soon as Harry started to ask himself who Dumbledore was and how he learnt all he had learnt in his life at the funeral.

In another thread (well, it is mine about the eggs) we came up with the idea that Flamel was Dumbledore’s light on his path to enlightment, leading him in the right, the light direction. And Fawkes was the prove that he took the right path since Dumbledore was able to hatch him from an egg. Just like the Philosopher’s Stone was the prove that Flamel had gone in the right direction.

Voldemort was not interested in any light Dumbledore had to offer to him and hatched therefore Nagini from his egg. But Snape was probably the rightful student of Dumbledore who took the torch of Dumbledore. Therefore it would be just right that the prove for the right direction returns to Snape at a time he does not give away too much, that means that he would blow Snape’s cover.

Originally Posted by Nymphchild
In another thread (well, it is mine about the eggs) we came up with the idea that Flamel was Dumbledore’s light on his path to enlightment, leading him in the right, the light direction. And Fawkes was the prove that he took the right path since Dumbledore was able to hatch him from an egg. Just like the Philosopher’s Stone was the prove that Flamel had gone in the right direction.

Voldemort was not interested in any light Dumbledore had to offer to him and hatched therefore Nagini from his egg. But Snape was probably the rightful student of Dumbledore who took the torch of Dumbledore. Therefore it would be just right that the prove for the right direction returns to Snape at a time he does not give away too much, that means that he would blow Snape’s cover.

Interesting theory... And it really works with what we've been talking in this thread. I actually like the idea of the eggs and the whole symbolism it involves. My only wish is that Fawkes will be there to prove beyond any doubt that Snape is DD's man through and through...

aislin, where was Hermione's line about evil? I don't remember it, but I'd like to go back and look at the context. Was it before or after Dumbledore was killed?

Clearly this has been discussed to death elsewhere, so I'll just say that I don't think loyalty is Snape's strong suit. To do all that he's done, he'd either have to be amazingly loyal to one side or in a bid for power himself, and I happen to like the latter.


6. The relationship Dumbledore-Fawkes: owner-pet or trusting friends? Was Fawkes domesticated by Dumbledore or did he choose to stay with him? Can Fawkes be inherited by anyone?
7. Is loyalty the same thing as blind trust? (I.e. can Harry still be considered loyal to Dumbledore even though he believes Dumbledore was wrong in trusting Snape? Most of us said yes.;))
9. The events of that fateful night when Snape killed Dumbledore, including the question: Why did Fawkes stay out of the scene on the Astronomy Tower? He was there in an instant during the battle at the Ministry in OotP, after all.


6. I like the idea of Fawkes going to DD's next of kin. JKR did say in an interview (probably the MuggleNet & Leaky Cauldron one) that his family would prove to be important. I can only think of Aberforth for sure, but I've wondered sometimes if Dumbledore ever married. I can see a long-dead wife maybe. Before he started teaching at Hogwarts, since all the profs there seem to take a vow of celibacy. Kids are a little harder to believe. Not that it's relevant to the Fawkes issue exactly.

7. Of course loyalty isn't the same as blind trust. Even Dumbledore didn't always trust himself, as we see when he explains things to Harry at the end of OotP. And even if they were allies, loyalty to Dumbledore does not necessitate loyalty to Snape.

8. In the OotP battle between Dumbledore and the Dark Lord, both of them were vanishing and reappearing left and right. Fawkes arrives in a moment when the Dark Lord has vanished. I feel that Dumbledore, thinking strategically, summoned Fawkes at that instant because he suspected the DL might try a two-pronged attack (an Avada Kedavra and that serpent that was about to bite him) and he'd need the bird to block one for him.

DD's at the top of his form in that scene, but practically destroyed on the Astronomy Tower in HBP. If he truly expected Severus to help him, doubt creeping in only a second or two before his death, he might not have had the power to summon Fawkes in time.

cb

aislin, where was Hermione's line about evil? I don't remember it, but I'd like to go back and look at the context. Was it before or after Dumbledore was killed?

It was after Dumbledore’s death:
’I should’ve shown the book to Dumbledore,’ said Harry. ‘All the time he was showing me how Voldemort was evil even when he was at school, and I had proof Snape was, too –‘
‘”Evil” is a strong word’, said Herminoe quietly.

It was after Dumbledore’s death:
’I should’ve shown the book to Dumbledore,’ said Harry. ‘All the time he was showing me how Voldemort was evil even when he was at school, and I had proof Snape was, too –‘
‘”Evil” is a strong word’, said Herminoe quietly.I think that what she said there will come into play in Book 7. Harry still has to learn that the world is not separated into 'good people' and 'death eaters', like Sirius had said in GOF.

:welcome: machiavelle and capella_black!

He must come to the realization that he was used by Dumbledore and Snape to achieve the ultimate goal of defeting evil. Balance, balance, balance. JK uses this throught her books. Good blood, bad blood, mirror images, the pheonix and the snake.

That is an interesting idea but I don't know about it. I, personally, don't like the idea of Harry being set up that way-that Dumbledore and Snape had a plan from the get go. I do think that they had a plan for Harry but that it evolved over time. Harry was not to have survived Godric's Hollow, there was no way that Dumbledore or anyone could have planned for Voldemort to be vaporized by a mother's love for her child; no one had ever survived the Avada Kedavra curse before. Dumbledore's gleam of triumph at the end of GoF is important and may reveal something about the plan that he and Snape cooked up over the years or were able to make after GoF.

Futhermore, choices are important. Harry has made the choice to go after the Horcruxes just as Snape has chosen to do everything in his power to be there when the final confrontation comes.

I think I might've come up with the argument that there actually could be more than one phoenix on earth at a time....There are at least three cultures that identify the phoenix in their mythology. And each of these cultures descrbes the phoenix differently: one looks a lot like a heron, one looks like Fawkes, and one (if I'm remembering correctly) is more hawklike. So if three different cultures each have their own version of the phoenix, maybe it's just one of each type that is on earth at any given time.

(Anyway, it's a compromise....:lol: )

:welcome: Eric_Cartman and HP4evr1807!

That was a very popular vision in the previous version for several posters (myself included). Harry is going to need all the evidence he can get and Fawkes helping out Snape in any shape, way or fashion, will be the visible proof that even Harry won't be able to arge with-try as he may.

Jo beat us over the head with Dumbledore trusting Snape. I don't think the consant repition of that theme was solely to blindslide us with the end of HBP-it was stressed for another reason which I believe will play a major role in book 7.

Thanks for the welcome! :)

I do believe that the reason why Snape was trusted by Dumbledore will be resolved in book 7---that was one thing Dumbledore never told Harry, and I wonder if there was a reason for that. I also agree that by just seeing Snape and Fawkes together will probably not make Harry rethink Snape's loyalty, it will have to be some sort of action that is sort of an in your face sort of situation, it will have to be obvious that Fawkes is supporting and helping Snape--which will be a sign he is still loyal--and was never not loyal-- to Dumbledore.

Wow, version 2! I was so shocked at first, when I saw that little "closed" sign next to the old thread... :lol:

OK, back on topic.


I'll try a short summary of the most important points already discussed for our newcomers (in no particular order and surely not exhaustive).

1. It all started out with aislin's wonderful theory on Fawkes and the significance of the time of his leaving Hogwarts. Make sure you check out the first post of the old thread (link in the opening post of this thread)!
2. This is definitely no prerequisite for posting on this thread, but somehow we all seemed to agree that Snape is on the right side, although he sure is an unlikeable, mean git. (This led to the formation of SIGS - the Snape Is Good Society. You can add it to your signature, if you like.)
3. On the assumption that Snape is basically good, we wondered whether Fawkes could have gone to him after leaving Hogwarts (and why - maybe to comfort him?) and where else, if not.
4. In relation to this we discussed the effects seeing Fawkes with Snape would have on different people, like Voldemort and, most importantly, Harry. We agreed that it would be a visible proof of Snape's loyalty. And just imagine the dramatic possibilities of that final encounter including both Snape and Fawkes!
5. Somewhere we brought Hagrid into the picture. Does he know more than we thought (e.g. having overheard that conversation between Snape and Dumbledore in the forest in HBP)? Does he keep any secrets for DD? Hagrid did always seem to trust Snape more than others did. Only think of his utter disbelief when Harry first tells him Snape had killed Dumbledore.
6. The relationship Dumbledore-Fawkes: owner-pet or trusting friends? Was Fawkes domesticated by Dumbledore or did he choose to stay with him? Can Fawkes be inherited by anyone?
7. Is loyalty the same thing as blind trust? (I.e. can Harry still be considered loyal to Dumbledore even though he believes Dumbledore was wrong in trusting Snape? Most of us said yes.;))
8. Fawkes's squawk when Harry voiced his anger at Snape in DD's office and its possible meanings.
9. The events of that fateful night when Snape killed Dumbledore, including the question: Why did Fawkes stay out of the scene on the Astronomy Tower? He was there in an instant during the battle at the Ministry in OotP, after all.
10. The characteristics of phoenixes and the properties of their feathers.

OK, those are the ten points that came to my mind immediately. I'll look through the old thread when I get the chance and add more if I come across any more major points (and I'm almost sure I will). If you think anything else should be added, feel free to tell me so. :)


This is a great thread and thanks for the summary! I hope if anything I say has been repeated before then someone'll let me know.

The choice between whats right and whats easy--big theme, right? It's always been easy for Harry to hate Snape (and vice versa). If Harry does see Snape with Fawkes, or what's more, Fawkes protecting Snape, will Harry do the hard-and right-thing and put aside his admittedly very strong feelings, and think about what it means? I think so. At least it might give him pause/hesitation of some kind before he presumably tries to harm Snape. It would start him thinking, I think.

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has discussed Snape's healing charm on Draco in the "Sectumsempra" chapter. I'm referring to the line where Snape traces his wand over Draco's wounds while muttering the incantation that "sounded like song."? My first thought as I read this the first time was, "Snape singing?" :lol: My take on this (and this is what convinced me during my second read of HBP of Snape's true loyalty to DD and the good side) is that Snape was using phoenix magic to heal Draco. If Snape is using phoenix song, he presumably learned it from Fawkes. I just thought this was one more connection between them.

When it comes to Fawkes, I don't think it's a pet. You cannot own a Phoenix because it has too much of an own personality for that. Loyalty is something that comes with understanding and understanding with a form of intelligence, so I think Fawkes is too 'human' to be owned.

About Fawkes and Snape, I think it's a nice theory that F. went to Snape a while after killing Dumbledore or will protect him. But it's too much a guess I think to distill something concrete from it.

:welcome: godricsword and Pearl84!

The choice between whats right and whats easy--big theme, right? It's always been easy for Harry to hate Snape (and vice versa). If Harry does see Snape with Fawkes, or what's more, Fawkes protecting Snape, will Harry do the hard-and right-thing and put aside his admittedly very strong feelings, and think about what it means? I think so. At least it might give him pause/hesitation of some kind before he presumably tries to harm Snape. It would start him thinking, I think.

:tu: What a great post. Harry and Snape have hated each other since PS/SS and it has only intensified over the years. Jo said that "Harry and Snape is more personal now" and after what happened in HBP, it's impossible to argue with that. I don't think that Harry will get over his hatred of Snape immediatly, it is going to take a long time and Harry's going to need a lot of proof before he trusts Snape. Snape will never call Harry around for tea but I do think that they will put aside their differences long enough to defeat Voldemort.

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has discussed Snape's healing charm on Draco in the "Sectumsempra" chapter. I'm referring to the line where Snape traces his wand over Draco's wounds while muttering the incantation that "sounded like song."? My first thought as I read this the first time was, "Snape singing?" My take on this (and this is what convinced me during my second read of HBP of Snape's true loyalty to Dumbledore and the good side) is that Snape was using phoenix magic to heal Draco. If Snape is using phoenix song, he presumably learned it from Fawkes. I just thought this was one more connection between them.

:tu: :tu: :tu:! To the best of my knowledge, that is an orginal idea. I love it! It is brilliant! Snape does not seem the type to just burst out into song and in front of Harry Potter no less.

Hi Aislin,

Thanks for the welcome!

About the 'singing', I think that that are more spells that are chanted, but that we have not heard of yet. Chanting or singing has a creative, magical value in a lot of ancient traditions. The spoken word is a creative force and repeating words in a harmonious rythm increases the power of the spoken words. So I think it's rather common in the magical world, but is a more advanced use of magic then we have seen thus far in the books. But I do put this 'singing' in line with the way how Dumbledore uses magic in the cave. But it's a good idea! We know Dumbledore likes music and affirms the magical power of music.

This is a great thread and thanks for the summary! I hope if anything I say has been repeated before then someone'll let me know.

The choice between whats right and whats easy--big theme, right? It's always been easy for Harry to hate Snape (and vice versa). If Harry does see Snape with Fawkes, or what's more, Fawkes protecting Snape, will Harry do the hard-and right-thing and put aside his admittedly very strong feelings, and think about what it means? I think so. At least it might give him pause/hesitation of some kind before he presumably tries to harm Snape. It would start him thinking, I think.

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has discussed Snape's healing charm on Draco in the "Sectumsempra" chapter. I'm referring to the line where Snape traces his wand over Draco's wounds while muttering the incantation that "sounded like song."? My first thought as I read this the first time was, "Snape singing?" :lol: My take on this (and this is what convinced me during my second read of HBP of Snape's true loyalty to Dumbledore and the good side) is that Snape was using phoenix magic to heal Draco. If Snape is using phoenix song, he presumably learned it from Fawkes. I just thought this was one more connection between them.
I thought that he could have been too... and I agree with you godricsword that he could have learned it from Fawkes and that it's another connection between the two of them. It will be very interesting to see how Jk will play this out in Book 7, and I can't wait to read it :)...!

Originally Posted by godricsword
On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has discussed Snape's healing charm on Draco in the "Sectumsempra" chapter. I'm referring to the line where Snape traces his wand over Draco's wounds while muttering the incantation that "sounded like song."? My first thought as I read this the first time was, "Snape singing?" My take on this (and this is what convinced me during my second read of HBP of Snape's true loyalty to Dumbledore and the good side) is that Snape was using phoenix magic to heal Draco. If Snape is using phoenix song, he presumably learned it from Fawkes. I just thought this was one more connection between them.
I just love the idea of Fawkes teaching Snape phoenix magic and there being a stronger connection between the two of them. And to imagine, that from all the advanced magic that Fawkes could've taught Snape he chose to teach him the art of healing... If this whole theory about Snape and Fawkes doesn't come true (at least in bits and pieces) I'll break my wand in two...

:tu: :tu: :tu:! To the best of my knowledge, that is an orginal idea. I love it! It is brilliant! Snape does not seem the type to just burst out into song and in front of Harry Potter no less.

:lol: Hehehe. I do really love the image of Snape bursting out into song (will anyone ever write a Harry Potter broadway musical? please?), but...

If a song-like incantation is what it takes to counter sectumsempra, then he doesn't bloody well have a choice, does he? Cissy's second Unbreakable Clause...

"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
"I will," said Snape.

I agree with what Pearl84 said about singing/chanting just being a more advanced form of magic. Incidentally, it's not phoenix song that has healing powers, it's phoenix tears.

I don't think Fawkes could teach Snape to cry phoenix tears, just like I don't think--if it had been song after all-- he could teach him to sing phoenix song. Have we ever seen magical beasts able to tutor wizards to perform their special brand of magical abilities? I'm sure if phoenix song does anything in particular, it would have to come from an actual bird.

Now what still strikes me as a little puzzling about the song-like incantation... are we to believe that Snape invented sectumsempra? We know he did levicorpus and the counterjinx liberacorpus, and that sectumsempra was in the HBP's potions book, but I'm not 100% sure if he invented the latter. If he did, would he also have cooked up the counterspell? Cause Snape *really* doesn't seem like the type to make up a singing spell if he can help it.

cb

hmmm, good point capella_black. Forgot that it was phoenix tears that have healing powers, and not it's song. It must've been because I love the theory so much.
Originally Posted by capella_black
Now what still strikes me as a little puzzling about the song-like incantation... are we to believe that Snape invented sectumsempra? We know he did levicorpus and the counterjinx liberacorpus, and that sectumsempra was in the HBP's potions book, but I'm not 100% sure if he invented the latter. If he did, would he also have cooked up the counterspell? Cause Snape *really* doesn't seem like the type to make up a singing spell if he can help it.

Well, that is true, but we don't really know anything about the young Severus except from what we see in his worst memory...so who knows, perhaps his hidden desire was to join the Weird Sisters...sorry, got a bit carried away. The fact is, we know very little about young Severus Snape, and what we do know is from Harry's point of view, and that will never be in Snape's advantage...

hmmm, good point capella_black. Forgot that it was phoenix tears that have healing powers, and not it's song. It must've been because I love the theory so much.

Well sorry about snatching that particular cup of joy from your lips.

Well, that is true, but we don't really know anything about the young Severus except from what we see in his worst memory...so who knows, perhaps his hidden desire was to join the Weird Sisters...sorry, got a bit carried away. The fact is, we know very little about young Severus Snape, and what we do know is from Harry's point of view, and that will never be in Snape's advantage...

HaHA! But it was worth it for the image of young Snape standing in front of a mirror, holding his wand like a microphone, and lip synching to the Weird Sisters. :D

We also have what Sirius and Remus told Harry, though they aren't exactly objective sources either. Too bad we never got to hear DD on the matter, I'm sure it would have been fascinating.

cb

Originally Posted by capella_black
HaHA! But it was worth it for the image of young Snape standing in front of a mirror, holding his wand like a microphone, and lip synching to the Weird Sisters.

We also have what Sirius and Remus told Harry, though they aren't exactly objective sources either. Too bad we never got to hear Dumbledore on the matter, I'm sure it would have been fascinating.


delightful image...hmmm...just what I had in mind...
and talking about Dumbledore and his memories regarding young Severus...perhaps that penseive will come in-handy in book 7, who knows, perhaps Dumbledore left Harry some other memories for him to see, we can only begin to imagine which (why he trust severus, some other information about horcruxes, or even about his parents).

But I do put this 'singing' in line with the way how Dumbledore uses magic in the cave. But it's a good idea! We know Dumbledore likes music and affirms the magical power of music.

At Harry's first night at Hogwarts, they sing thew school song and after which Dumbledore says "Music, a magic above all else we do here." On Dumbledore's chocolate frog card, it says that he enjoys chamber music. There are many other refrences to music throughout the books.

I agree with what Pearl84 said about singing/chanting just being a more advanced form of magic. Incidentally, it's not phoenix song that has healing powers, it's phoenix tears

The song of the phoenix gives strength and hope to those it sings for, 'increasing the courage of the pure of heart and striking fear into the hearts of the impure' according to Scamander (FB)

How do you feel about tying in the power of the phoenix song with advanced magic? Something beyond human capabilities. I believe it has been described as "unearthly" before (I need to go check that)

I do believe we have not seen the last of the penseive.

The song of the phoenix gives strength and hope to those it sings for, 'increasing the courage of the pure of heart and striking fear into the hearts of the impure' according to Scamander (FB)

How do you feel about tying in the power of the phoenix song with advanced magic? Something beyond human capabilities. I believe it has been described as "unearthly" before (I need to go check that)


Then if Snape's song was phoenix-ish, it was Harry whose heart was striken with fear. Though I seriously doubt Malfoy's courage would be enhanced by it, since he'd just tried to use an Unforgivable Curse. Still, as I said before, I don't see Fawkes teaching Snape how to sing.

aislin, I'm not exactly sure what you mean about tying the phoenix song with advanced magic beyond human capabilities?

cb

I meant it to be a magic beyond that which humans can do. Maybe that is the wrong way to describe it. It's a kind of magic that is more spiritual than anything else. If the phoenix song has really been described as "unearthly" in canon (and I think it is but haven't been able to check yet), then to me, it reminds me of a heavenly song; like a chorus of angels or God's voice. Something that is so powerful and moving that there are no words to describe it and that's why I said beyond human capabilities. I was thinking more along the lines of divine powers.

I meant it to be a magic beyond that which humans can do. Maybe that is the wrong way to describe it. It's a kind of magic that is more spiritual than anything else. If the phoenix song has really been described as "unearthly" in canon (and I think it is but haven't been able to check yet), then to me, it reminds me of a heavenly song; like a chorus of angels or God's voice. Something that is so powerful and moving that there are no words to describe it and that's why I said beyond human capabilities. I was thinking more along the lines of divine powers.

Here's what it says in CoS, p. 315 (US hardback):

"The music was growing louder. It was eerie, spine-tingling, unearthly; it lifted the hair on Harry's scalp and made his heart feel as though it was swelling to twice its normal size. Then, as the music reached such a pitch that Harry felt it vibrating inside his own ribs, flames errupted at the top of the nearest pillar."

Yep, sounds pretty divine and magical to me, and I really like the way you described it. Only now I'm not so sure what it has to do with Snape.

Great, now I've got an image of Snape singing in a gospel choir in my head. I need to start collecting these bizzaro brainwaves... just now I also had monthly Death Eater potluck dinners. And earlier today, Harry sentencing the Dark Lord to spend the rest of his days (stripped off magic of course) living with the Dursley's. Just picture Uncle Vernon's face when that snakey Lord Voldything shows up on his doorstep. And the DL sleeping in the broom closet, cooking eggs and bacon for Dudley's children, Dudley's children's children... can there be a more fitting end to this series? :D

cb

i have to say that snapes only way to prove his loyalties is to appear with fawks( dumbledores phoenix) on his side....
i.e. defending snape

Loved the theory

:welcome: bharadhia2000 and morsefaria!

capella_black , :lol: Hilarious.

Thanks for pulling up the quote. About the link between Snape, Fawkes and divinity, maybe it has to with Snape being redeemed. The power of forgiveness, the power of love.

Originally Posted by capella_black
Great, now I've got an image of Snape singing in a gospel choir in my head. I need to start collecting these bizzaro brainwaves... just now I also had monthly Death Eater potluck dinners. And earlier today, Harry sentencing the Dark Lord to spend the rest of his days (stripped off magic of course) living with the Dursley's. Just picture Uncle Vernon's face when that snakey Lord Voldything shows up on his doorstep. And the DL sleeping in the broom closet, cooking eggs and bacon for Dudley's children, Dudley's children's children... can there be a more fitting end to this series?

Another unique moment with our favourite Potions Master... You just made my day (just got out of an exam... :grumble: ), it would really be hillarious, as aislin said, to imagine Snape singing in a choir (and perhaps at Christmas, he would be the little angel, wearing fake wings, and spreading joy to the world...yeah, like that's ever going to happen...).
Originally Posted by aislin
About the link between Snape, Fawkes and divinity, maybe it has to with Snape being redeemed. The power of forgiveness, the power of love.

Good point, I agree! I truly hope that Snape will be redeemed in the end! But come to think of it, what is it there to forgive Snape for, except for the cruel (but perhaps necessary) behaviour towards Harry? Everything he is blamed for (killing Dumbledore, protecting Draco, running away with the DE etc), everything he has done that looks suspicious, all was done under Dumbledore orders or at least with his consent. So why should Snape be the one asking to be redeemed when, all this time, he has been DD's man through and through?

Good point, I agree! I truly hope that Snape will be redeemed in the end! But come to think of it, what is it there to forgive Snape for, except for the cruel (but perhaps necessary) behaviour towards Harry? Everything he is blamed for (killing Dumbledore, protecting Draco, running away with the DE etc), everything he has done that looks suspicious, all was done under Dumbledore orders or at least with his consent. So why should Snape be the one asking to be redeemed when, all this time, he has been DD's man through and through?

He's got to get redeemed through the eyes of Harry, the rest of the wizarding world and the fanbase (excluding us ofcourse!) I think Snape is asking for a chance to let his story be heard and it needs to be.

Originally Posted by aislin
He's got to get redeemed through the eyes of Harry, the rest of the wizarding world and the fanbase (excluding us of course!) I think Snape is asking for a chance to let his story be heard and it needs to be.


Yeah, I know that in the eyes of Harry and the rest he has to be forgiven, I just hate the idea of it...But I won't say no to hearing his story...it's one of the things I'm looking forward in book 7...

Thanks for the welcome Aislin

I agree with you, the plan I was talking about would have evolved over time , having seen how powerful Voldemort was getting, I think Dumbledore and Snape with much trepidation decided to use Harry's blood. I therefore do think that Harry will feel some degree of being used and will be rethinking his opion of Dumbledore. I think he wil realize he still loves Dumbledore, but maybe Dumbledore was a little over focused, shall we say, with the big picture of destroying Voldemort. Not that this is a bad thing, but kids don't always understand why they are notincluded in grown-up plans.

I do think in the long Snape will explain the situation to Harry, and Harry will possibly see Dumbledore in a more realistic light, and I think this will lead Harry to see Snape as more cautious, and level-headed rather than evil. Harry was adored by Dumbledore, and was a little prejudiced by that, whereas Snape cut Harry no slack, sometimes we come to apprecitate those in our lives who are sterner with us, and teach us to rely on ourselves more.

Anyway I'm off the thread. I hope Fawkes and Snape are buds!!

By the way, I have a theory about how the Dark Lord came by his lovely potion which brought him back to life. Wanna her about it?

Machiavelle. this is not the place to hear of The Dark lord. Make a new topic or something

:welcome: Otis

By the way, I have a theory about how the Dark Lord came by his lovely potion which brought him back to life. Wanna her about it?

If it has a connection to Fawkes and Snape, go for it. In the previous version, we had discussed phoenix feathers in magical applications-Harry and Voldemort's wand cores, possible use in potions (Nympchild's idea), etc. We looked into what it meant for a phoenix to choose to give their feathers.

ETA: Just had a thought-Voldemort's return to life is a perversion of a phoenix rising from the ashes. Voldemort was turned into vapor in PS/SS, Fawkes is reduced to ashes on a Burning Day. Voldemort started GoF in baby form, Fawkes takes the shape of a baby phoenix when he emrges from the ashes. Voldemort was restored to full adult form but for Fawkes it takes awhile for him to become a full adult again. I would not be suprised if the idea behind the Flesh, Blood and Bone spell came from a phoenix.

Finally, a moment to come "find" you! Actually, I believe it was the mention of CHOICES and Healer Snape that drew me over...

LOVE the idea that Fawkes taught Snape the healing magic of the Phoenix's song. I am still hoping that Fluffy and the flute weren't all we're going to see of the magic of music. If Dumbledore calls music a magic above all that is done at Hogwarts (paraphrased) then it's rather powerful stuff.

*waves to cruplover!*

The flute was used to calm Fluffy-music soothed him. Fawkes' song, in a way, has a calming effect for it gives the person who hears it resolve to carry on, it lets them know they are not alone. Aha! They are not alone for Dumbledore is with them-a reverse of that beautiful line in HBP. Healer Snape using a spell that sounds like a song/chant to heal (and for that matter soothe) Draco in the bathroom. It's not a complete mirror to Fawkes, but the simlarities are there.

It's not a complete mirror to Fawkes, but the simlarities are there.

Works for me. There's a lot to be said for the not so clinical part of healing. All of us have a story from our childhood or our children's early days, when the kiss on the booboo was more important than the bandaid.

I really need to log off and go to bed, but my foggy mind is wondering how Draco felt about Healer Snape. We have Harry's appreciation that Snape was there and knew what to do, but what about Draco? Fawkes seems always to be appreciated, although I can't help but wonder what we - and Harry and the Weasleys and... - missed during the Phoenix Lament!

I think there is a connection to be made between Healer Snape and Fawkes. It may be just as simple as both have the power and ability to heal but there may be more to it. I'd love to hear what you all think.

Another unique moment with our favourite Potions Master... You just made my day (just got out of an exam... :grumble: ), it would really be hillarious, as aislin said, to imagine Snape singing in a choir (and perhaps at Christmas, he would be the little angel, wearing fake wings, and spreading joy to the world...yeah, like that's ever going to happen...).


:lol: If Neville's reading these, he should never again have problems sorting out his boggart. Why is Snape so much fun to abuse like that? :D

cb

Originally Posted by capella_black
Why is Snape so much fun to abuse like that?

I have really no idea, it's actually illogical; perhaps because we love our Potions Master so much and this is our way of showing it...
But then again...we also make fun of Voldemort...so you see, it is illogical...it's mental actually!!!

i have to say that snapes only way to prove his loyalties is to appear with fawks( dumbledores phoenix) on his side....
i.e. defending snape
I do agree that this is a possibilty because we know Fawkes loyalty never wavers

Originally Posted by aislin
ETA: Just had a thought-Voldemort's return to life is a perversion of a phoenix rising from the ashes. Voldemort was turned into vapor in PS/SS, Fawkes is reduced to ashes on a Burning Day. Voldemort started GoF in baby form, Fawkes takes the shape of a baby phoenix when he emrges from the ashes. Voldemort was restored to full adult form but for Fawkes it takes awhile for him to become a full adult again. I would not be suprised if the idea behind the Flesh, Blood and Bone spell came from a phoenix.

Love the parallel...It sounds like something Voldemort would do - take something pure like the power of a phoenix to resurrect and turn it into a way to come back to power...it's so ironic...so evil...so like Voldemort... :evil:

I do think in the long Snape will explain the situation to Harry, and Harry will possibly see Dumbledore in a more realistic light, and I think this will lead Harry to see Snape as more cautious, and level-headed rather than evil. Harry was adored by Dumbledore, and was a little prejudiced by that, whereas Snape cut Harry no slack, sometimes we come to apprecitate those in our lives who are sterner with us, and teach us to rely on ourselves more.


Snape will not explain anything to Harry if he can help it. He hasn't been doling out tough love all this time, he hates Potter's guts, hates him with the burning passion of a million suns. If he (Snape) has in fact dedicated himself to overthrowing the Dark Lord, and if the only way to do it is to help Harry Potter, then he'll swallow that bitter medicine and do what he needs to do. But it's not like, once the whole thing is over, he'll decide Potter has a right to know certain info and share it voluntarily. Snape and Potter are incapable of having a non-hostile conversation. As DD himself said, some wounds are just too deep.

Anyway, I thought at the beginning of GoF the Dark Lord was made out to be a nasty, grotesque, fetal-like thing mainly because JKR wanted that sort of horrid imagery. I remember her saying in an interview that she thought the publishers
would object to the "fetal" thing, and she was prepared to take it out. So I don't know if him looking like a "baby" was intended to echo the ugly baby bird Fawkes becomes after a Burning Day.

What do you guys think is at the core of Snape's wand? We know Fawkes only ever gave two feathers, and that the Dark Lord and Harry Potter have them. Harry got his because the DL marked him as an equal, but I've always wondered why a Fawkes-feather wand would choose young Tom Riddle. Why Riddle and not Snape? Snape would've gotten his wand after the DL, but before James and Lily ever laid eyes on each other. Could his wand have a feather from another phoenix? Would that have any significance at all?

cb

I think there is a connection to be made between Healer Snape and Fawkes. It may be just as simple as both have the power and ability to heal but there may be more to it. I'd love to hear what you all think.

I think there's more than that. I am rather taken with the idea that the sounds Snape made over Draco after Harry had used Sectumsempra on Draco were a form of healing Fawkes had shared with Snape. No, I'm not completely personifying the Phoenix, but we do know Dumbledore spoke to Fawkes in rather plain in English, so I can see Snape watching Fawkes at work as a Healer and then copying the sound as close as possible. I also think that Fawkes recognized Snape's sincere loyalty to Dumbledore and he will go to Snape's aide before the end of book 7, as Fawkes did with Harry in the Chamber of Secrets.

It's been a while since my last post and so many interesting new ideas have been brought up. I apologize if this post therefore will be a rather long one...

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has discussed Snape's healing charm on Draco in the "Sectumsempra" chapter. I'm referring to the line where Snape traces his wand over Draco's wounds while muttering the incantation that "sounded like song."? My first thought as I read this the first time was, "Snape singing?" My take on this (and this is what convinced me during my second read of HBP of Snape's true loyalty to Dumbledore and the good side) is that Snape was using phoenix magic to heal Draco. If Snape is using phoenix song, he presumably learned it from Fawkes. I just thought this was one more connection between them.
What an original idea! :tu: Although capella_black's arguments pretty much disproves the direct connection to Phoenix song, I really like how you drew our attention to Snape's healing actions. Necessary evil, grudging protection, unwarranted meanness,... that's what we usually associate with Snape. But in this one instant Snape is the one who is doing something unequivocally good: healing. No matter what you think of Draco or of Snape's motivation in healing him, I believe healing is so inherently good, there's just nothing bad or evil about it. For once, it had been Harry who had been the "bad guy" using such dark magic (however unwittingly) and it was Snape who was the "good guy", undoing the damage afterwards.

About the link between Snape, Fawkes and divinity, maybe it has to with Snape being redeemed. The power of forgiveness, the power of love.
Also, I think courage could be come into the picture somewhere. Fawkes "increasing the courage of the pure of heart" (from HPL: Phoenixes: Fawkes (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/fawkes.html)), courage being the distinguishing characteristic of Gryffindors (whose house colors, incidentally, are those of Fawkes's feathers: red and gold) while Snape is an exemplary Slytherin, who are not exactly famed for their bravery, at least not the pompous kind displayed by Gryffindors. But still Snape absolutely loses it when Harry calls him a coward in HBP (The Flight of the Prince). So, his courage being acknowledged does seem to matter to him.

I'm not sure how exactly all this fits together and what it means for the relationship Fawkes-Snape, but there seems to be some connection. What do you guys think?

Machiavelle and aislin were discussing a plan Dumbledore might have had for Harry and Harry's reaction to being used like this. I've just reread OotP and in the chapter "The Lost Prophecy" Dumbledore does mention a plan, although he never, as far as I could see, specified what that plan was. Here are the pertinent quotes:

On page 908 of the UK paperback edition of OotP Dumbledore says he "guessed, fifteen years ago, when [he] saw the scar on [Harry's] forehead, what it might mean. [He] guessed it might be the sign of a connection forged between you and Voldemort." I suppose this guess of Dumbledore's was the basis for the plan he formed. The plan itself is mentioned for the first time a few pages later:
"Five years ago, then," continued Dumbledore, as though he had not paused in his story, "you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as well-nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances. Thus far, my plan was working well."
He then admits to a flaw in this plan and explains what that flaw was:
"Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine," said Dumbledore. "An obvious flaw that I knew, even then, might be the undoing of it all. And yet, knowing how important it was that my plan should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it. I alone could prevent this, so I alone must be strong."
"Do you see, Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now? I had fallen into the trap I had foreseen, that I had told myself I could avoid, that I must avoid."
"I don't-"
"I cared about you too much," said Dumbledore simply. "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act."
I think the last quote shows that the plan didn't just concern keeping Harry alive, as I had first thought, even though Dumbledore clearly states that as one of his goals as well. Anyway, whatever DD's exact plan may have been, the quotes above also lay the basis for Harry forgiving Dumbledore for it, if he even gets upset by it in the first place. Dumbledore loved Harry, and Harry knows that. He knows that even if Dumbledore had planned to "use" him, he definitely hadn't wanted to. Harry knows Dumbledore didn't regard him as just a strategic weapon, but had cared about him deeply.

Snape will not explain anything to Harry if he can help it. I'm afraid I don't quite agree. Snape does crave recognition for his actions and in order to get that, he'll have to explain them. Furthermore, I'd like to point you to Harry's first occlumency lesson with Snape (Occlumency, OotP) when Snape answers more of Harry's questions (10 in total) than anyone else in the more than 500 pages before that.

:welcome: Mugglewizard!

What do you guys think is at the core of Snape's wand? We know Fawkes only ever gave two feathers, and that the Dark Lord and Harry Potter have them. Harry got his because the DL marked him as an equal, but I've always wondered why a Fawkes-feather wand would choose young Tom Riddle. Why Riddle and not Snape? Snape would've gotten his wand after the DL, but before James and Lily ever laid eyes on each other. Could his wand have a feather from another phoenix? Would that have any significance at all?

It does make you wonder what the wand with the phoenix feather in its core saw in Voldemort. As for Snape's wand core, I have no clue. Maybe it is just like his boggart and patronus-it would give too much away. Has anyone ever asked Jo about his wand core? Maybe that's something for all those lucky people going to NYC to ask her.

cruplover, I think that Fawkes would fascinate Healer Snape and that he would try to learn all he could from the phoenix.

Maginny, good to see you again.

Also, I think courage could be come into the picture somewhere. Fawkes "increasing the courage of the pure of heart" (from HPL: Phoenixes: Fawkes), courage being the distinguishing characteristic of Gryffindors (whose house colors, incidentally, are those of Fawkes's feathers: red and gold) while Snape is an exemplary Slytherin, who are not exactly famed for their bravery, at least not the pompous kind displayed by Gryffindors. But still Snape absolutely loses it when Harry calls him a coward in HBP (The Flight of the Prince). So, his courage being acknowledged does seem to matter to him.

Snape is a pretty brave guy when you stop and think about it. He goes back to Voldemort 2 hours later and after it was made clear at Kararoff's trial that he had turned from Voldemort and became a spy. Throwing put all issues of Snape's loyalty aside, to go back to Voldemort 2 hours after he summoned you and after it was made public you turned spy takes some merve (to say the least). He somehow manages to keep the double-agent thing going and he is still alive so that must say something.

It does make you wonder what the wand with the phoenix feather in its core saw in Voldemort. As for Snape's wand core, I have no clue. Maybe it is just like his boggart and patronus-it would give too much away. Has anyone ever asked Jo about his wand core? Maybe that's something for all those lucky people going to NYC to ask her.

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

Perhaps wands, like Dumbledore, see potential. Tom Riddle had the potential to be a great wizard for the "good" but choose to pursue Dark Arts. We've found tree charts to give us insight into the meanings of the assorted wand woods, but we haven't found means for the wand cores. A phoenix feather core might not have a thing to do with loyalty. There could also be some sort of synergystic effect, where the wand wood and the core combine to form a very unique "personality" for the wand.

We know wand cores for so few characters that I have little hope of learning Snape's. Still, those of you headed to NYC, ask away!

I think Snape's wand core has the potential to give us insight into his character which is why I said it would give too much away. Jo makes deliberate choices with these sort of things so I think that his wand core would be significant. Harry's wand is 11 inches and the core contains a feather from Fawkes and is made out of Holly which in European tradition is used to repel evil (makes sense given who he is). Voldemort's is 13 and 1/2 inches and is made out of Yew which symbolized death and resurection (his "death" at Godric's Hollow and resurection in GoF). We know a little about other characters' wand cores-there's a list on the Lexicon if you want to check it out.

Originally Posted by maginny



Originally Posted by aislin
About the link between Snape, Fawkes and divinity, maybe it has to with Snape being redeemed. The power of forgiveness, the power of love.
Also, I think courage could be come into the picture somewhere. Fawkes "increasing the courage of the pure of heart" (from HPL: Phoenixes: Fawkes), courage being the distinguishing characteristic of Gryffindors (whose house colors, incidentally, are those of Fawkes's feathers: red and gold) while Snape is an exemplary Slytherin, who are not exactly famed for their bravery, at least not the pompous kind displayed by Gryffindors. But still Snape absolutely loses it when Harry calls him a coward in HBP (The Flight of the Prince). So, his courage being acknowledged does seem to matter to him.

This reminded me of DD's advice as to the bond between Houses and that differences should be placed aside. Snape's close relationship with Fawkes is a perfect example of such a bond between the two rival Houses at Hogwarts and it makes me think that perhaps Snape is the missing link to reuniting all the Houses...
Originally Posted by aislin
Snape is a pretty brave guy when you stop and think about it. He goes back to Voldemort 2 hours later and after it was made clear at Kararoff's trial that he had turned from Voldemort and became a spy. Throwing put all issues of Snape's loyalty aside, to go back to Voldemort 2 hours after he summoned you and after it was made public you turned spy takes some merve (to say the least). He somehow manages to keep the double-agent thing going and he is still alive so that must say something.

No one could argue with the fact that Snape has probably risked his life more that any other character in the series and has also received the least credit for his acts of bravery. His only motivation has been DD's trust and now he has lost that,too. He has no one left on his side (at least that's what we were lead to think...) he will be hunted down by the very people he has strived so hard to protect...I can't imagine from where Snape will get his energy for continuing on this path that can only offer him the life of a runaway hated by everyone. I only hope that Fawkes will be there to comfort him, at least by means of his song...

I'm afraid I don't quite agree. Snape does crave recognition for his actions and in order to get that, he'll have to explain them. Furthermore, I'd like to point you to Harry's first occlumency lesson with Snape (Occlumency, OotP) when Snape answers more of Harry's questions (10 in total) than anyone else in the more than 500 pages before that.

I guess I meant they aren't going to have a nice honest heart-to-heart like Harry's had with Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, and others when something needs explaining. If he's got Snape cornered (like they had Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA), Snape might be forced to reveal whatever it is he's hiding. Or if Snape sees a chance to taunt Harry about all the mistaken assumptions and stupid moves he's made along the way, he'd probably do it. I'll have to go back and read the "Occlumency" chapter though, thanks for pointing that out.

Perhaps wands, like Dumbledore, see potential. Tom Riddle had the potential to be a great wizard for the "good" but choose to pursue Dark Arts. We've found tree charts to give us insight into the meanings of the assorted wand woods, but we haven't found means for the wand cores. A phoenix feather core might not have a thing to do with loyalty. There could also be some sort of synergystic effect, where the wand wood and the core combine to form a very unique "personality" for the wand.

Ooh, I like the "wand is more than the sum of its parts" idea. And if the yew tree is death and resurrection, it does seem compatible with the phoenix feather.

But as for the wand seeing mostly potential, I'm not convinced. This isn't Salazar Slytherin's bird, it's Albus Dumbledore's. When Dumbledore goes to the orphanage to collect Riddle, it's clear that he's already quite the little sociopath. Dumbledore may have been willing to give Riddle a fresh start and the same opportunities available to other wizard kids, but he wouldn't have wanted to put too much power in the kid's hands from the beginning. I have a theory about Riddle getting the wand later to make it a horcrux, but that's posted on the "Identifying & Tracking Down the Remaining Horcruxes v.2" thread.

I think Snape's wand core has the potential to give us insight into his character which is why I said it would give too much away. Jo makes deliberate choices with these sort of things so I think that his wand core would be significant. Harry's wand is 11 inches and the core contains a feather from Fawkes and is made out of Holly which in European tradition is used to repel evil (makes sense given who he is). Voldemort's is 13 and 1/2 inches and is made out of Yew which symbolized death and resurection (his "death" at Godric's Hollow and resurection in GoF). We know a little about other characters' wand cores-there's a list on the Lexicon if you want to check it out.

I'll check that out, thanks.

Dunno what Snape's wand core could tell us about his character though. In the (highly unlikely) case that Ollivander was wrong and Fawkes did give another feather, and it's Snape's wand core, that still doesn't settle any lingering questions. It might seem like that sort of Snape-Fawkes connection is a beat-you-over-the-head-with-a-collapsible-cauldron sign of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. But of course the Dark Lord has precisely the same connection to Dumbledore, and that says absolutely nothing about his (completely nonexistant) loyalty.

cb

I guess I meant they aren't going to have a nice honest heart-to-heart like Harry's had with Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, and others when something needs explaining. If he's got Snape cornered (like they had Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA), Snape might be forced to reveal whatever it is he's hiding. Or if Snape sees a chance to taunt Harry about all the mistaken assumptions and stupid moves he's made along the way, he'd probably do it. I'll have to go back and read the "Occlumency" chapter though, thanks for pointing that out.

Snape and Harry have a heart-to-heart is about as likely as Petunia and Harry having one over tea and cake. Snape is only going to talk if provoked. The trick is to get him to lose control of his emotions and see what comes out of his mouth. If Harry wants to learn anything before encountering Snape is going to be via the penseive.

Snape's wand core may prove fruitless but for my own curosity's sake-I'd like to know.

It seems the better question is what is the wood in Snape's wand, although I too would be curious to know the core. The wood correlations have matched up rather well, but we're not doing too well with the cores. Interesting though that what makes Harry's wand Voldemort's twin is its core. The fact that the woods and lengths are different doesn't seem to matter, so back to the core we go.

(I think best while writing, so I apologize for thinking things through while posting. That's the second time I've done it this morning!)

Maginny, good to see you again.
Thank you, aislin! One reason I love this thread so much is that I always feel so welcome here. By the way, have you seen Freaky or OddT lately? OK, well, back on topic...

This reminded me of DD's advice as to the bond between Houses and that differences should be placed aside. Snape's close relationship with Fawkes is a perfect example of such a bond between the two rival Houses at Hogwarts and it makes me think that perhaps Snape is the missing link to reuniting all the Houses...
Interesting. Most people seem to think that now that Slughorn is the new head of Slytherin, the houses are much more likely to unite than under Snape. But I like your idea, it's an interesting thought.
However, Fawkes is not specifically linked to Gryffindor House, it's not its mascot or anything. But it's true of course that the Gryffindor colors are the same as those of Fawkes' feathers, and there's this courage connection I've mentioned before.

I guess I meant they aren't going to have a nice honest heart-to-heart like Harry's had with Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius, and others when something needs explaining. If he's got Snape cornered (like they had Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA), Snape might be forced to reveal whatever it is he's hiding. Or if Snape sees a chance to taunt Harry about all the mistaken assumptions and stupid moves he's made along the way, he'd probably do it.
I agree with that. There's certainly no love lost between Snape and Harry. Unless Snape undergoes a complete character makeover (and just how likely is that, outside fanfiction? :lol:), any explanation he might ever give Harry, it will probably be an explanation dripping with contempt and full of insults to Harry.

Ooh, I like the "wand is more than the sum of its parts" idea.
I do, too! Which is also why I don't think knowing Snape's wand core alone would tell us much. Knowing the core plus the type of wood, however... But this would probably be one of those things that make perfect sense in hindsight, but I don't know how much we would be able to make of it beforehand.

Ok. totally random thought - in HBP, in Spinner's End, the chains that emerge when the UV is performed are described as fiery snakes, or something along those lines (have to look for the quote), but until then, snakes have always been associated with water, the element of the Slytherins, so why is it that in this chapter, where we see the first glimpse of Snape outside of Hogwarts and doing something that appears to be of importance for the development of the series, snakes are associated with Gryffindor's element - fire? It's an intriguing aspect, innit?!

Knowing the core plus the type of wood, however... But this would probably be one of those things that make perfect sense in hindsight, but I don't know how much we would be able to make of it beforehand.

This is probably true...:sigh: I should probably leave Snape's wand alone as we have really nothing to go by except that despite his apparent disdain for "foolish wandwaving", he is quite adept at wand work (for better or for worse). Wonder if his wand is better for Charms or Transfiguration?

alex2moony, :tu: that's an interesting catch.

Hi guys. How nice of you to miss me. :) I have been stopping by and reading but you are doing such a good job, I have had nothing intelligent to say.

The firey serpents is a good catch. You need courage to take such a vow (a Gryffindor trait) and such a vow is rather dark magic (Slytherin trait) because it means you do not trust the person unless their life is on the line.

Snape seemed willing to explain more to Harry during their 'remedial potions'. I think if Harry would quit striking Snape as proud, and Snape would not snarl, they might get somewhere. If they were facing a common enemy, and needed each other to survive, perhaps?

Ok. totally random thought - in HBP, in Spinner's End, the chains that emerge when the UV is performed are described as fiery snakes, or something along those lines (have to look for the quote), but until then, snakes have always been associated with water, the element of the Slytherins, so why is it that in this chapter, where we see the first glimpse of Snape outside of Hogwarts and doing something that appears to be of importance for the development of the series, snakes are associated with Gryffindor's element - fire? It's an intriguing aspect, innit?!

Here's the end paragraph of that chapter:

Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others, and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake.

So good memory, alex2moony.

Maybe it's just that snakelike tongues of fire sound cooler than snakelike tongues of water. And they glow. Sorry, I'm not feeling so creative right now.

cb

holy cow! I go on vacation, come back and there is already a version 2?!!!! AWESOME! I like this thread. :)

9. The events of that fateful night when Snape killed Dumbledore, including the question: Why did Fawkes stay out of the scene on the Astronomy Tower? He was there in an instant during the battle at the Ministry in OotP, after all.

Either, as capella_black said, Dumbledore didn't doubt Snape's loyalty until it was too late to summon Fawkes, or Dumbledore and Snape had planned that Snape would kill him if it was necessary so as to keep the Unbreakable Vow so that Snape would not die and would still keep his position as a spy. So Fawkes knew not to go and try to save Dumbledore because Dumbledore did not want to be saved.

---

This is a little bit-well quite a bit-off topic, but it deals with Snape, so I guess it fits.

A lot of people have been saying that Harry seeing Snape with Fawkes might make him trust Snape, but that would totally blow their cover...unless they were alone together, but you can never really know for sure if you are alone....

So maybe if Snape showed up at Privet Drive and met Harry there, Harry would trust him? If Snape is able to get in, that would meen that Snape was not intending to hurt Harry.

Then Harry would trust Snape and they would work out their differences or whatever and Fawkes would come back and I dunno...help Harry destroy the Horcruxes. Somebody said something about snakes and phoenixes sort of being opposites, so maybe Fawkes could destroy Nagini. (I know this last part wasn't too great, but I was just trying to tie it in with the Fawkes thing.)

This is a little bit-well quite a bit-off topic, but it deals with Snape, so I guess it fits.
So maybe if Snape showed up at Privet Drive and met Harry there, Harry would trust him? If Snape is able to get in, that would meen that Snape was not intending to hurt Harry.

Then Harry would trust Snape and they would work out their differences or whatever and Fawkes would come back and I dunno...help Harry destroy the Horcruxes. Somebody said something about snakes and phoenixes sort of being opposites, so maybe Fawkes could destroy Nagini. (I know this last part wasn't too great, but I was just trying to tie it in with the Fawkes thing.)
I never thought of that, but it might work. If Snape showed up at Privet Drive what would Harry do? I doubt Snape would have a problem getting in even if he is evil. I thought Dumbledore's ancient magic only worked with Voldemort.
It would be an interesting meeting, especially if Fawkes made an appearance. I think that would be the only thing that would make Harry listen to Snape without trying to curse him.
There is a part of me that thinks Snape will be "missing" for awhile in book 7, but seeing him stroll down Privet Drive would be a twist.

I dunno if Snape will need Fawkes' 'testimony'. Frankly, for all that we know, Harry could end up captured and imprisoned by Voldemort fairly early on, and Snape sneaks in to free him. I think that would convince Harry of his sincerity more than anything.

I get the feeling that phoenixes are very independent, and it will be Harry who sees one. If not Fawkes, then perhaps a new phoenix, with a scar in the shape of the London underground on it's knee.:cool:

But there are a whole lot of interesting theories here.

I dunno if Snape will need Fawkes' 'testimony'.

I feel that if Harry saw Fawkes with Snape, he might not neccesarilly be convinced as much as angered. He might think that Fawkes is mislead in trusting Snape because Dumbledore was his owner. Harry gets angered and confused to easily to think things through.

I get the feeling that phoenixes are very independent, and it will be Harry who sees one. If not Fawkes, then perhaps a new phoenix, with a scar in the shape of the London underground on it's knee.:cool:

^that would be awesome^

I feel that if Harry saw Fawkes with Snape, he might not neccesarilly be convinced as much as angered. He might think that Fawkes is mislead in trusting Snape because Dumbledore was his owner. Harry gets angered and confused to easily to think things through.

That's probably right, but seeing Snape and Fawkes together would at least get Harry thinking a little more about Snape rather than just assuming he's evil.

I don't believe a single, isolated event/person/phoenix is going to convince Harry that Snape is anything less than a murderer. However, I do think that knowing as Harry does of Fawkes's response to those who are extremely loyal to Dumbledore, seeing Fawkes coming to Snape's aid would help open Harry's eyes.

Cruplover pretty much summed up our feelings from version 1 of this thread. JKR said Harry knows more than he realizes. Hopefully he will have time to do some serious thinking about what he knows. He needs to think about what Snape has done, not just snarled. :lol:

:welcome: potions_geek, IgoRetla, LindseyScorno!

welcome back ginny8dandelion!

I don't think it will be one single thing that changes Harry's mind but it will be the sum of many things that does the trick.

It may be a little off the topic, but it still deals with Snape's loyalities so I'll just say it: I just read a great editorial - The Psyche of Severus, by Lady Lupin (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se19.shtml). it presents snape's past in the way I always imagined jk would. It touches on important aspects like his fears, his reasons for joining the order, DD's reason for trusting Severus and so on. I don't know, I just really really liked it, I reckon it's because I have a soft spot for Severus or because it's so realistic...and I really think it backs-up this thread as it does prove that Severus respected and was loyal to Dumbledore... :D

alex2moony, I did read the editorial and I did feel that it could support this thread's idea. Too bad we can't discuss the editorial here-maybe we should invade the editorial's thread :evil:

We had touched upon the idea of the importance of music awhile ago and it is an idea that I'd like to return to. I was searching the internet and found lots of sites dedicated to the study of the healing power of music. It reminded me of Snape in the bathroom and Fawkes' song.

OMG I'm totally in love with this thread right now :love: haha

I like all of your ideas and agree with alot of them. There isn't much I can add here because you're all so brilliant but...

I was just thinking what a tangled web it is having Fawkes protecting Snape because of his loyalty to DD and Snape protecting Draco because of his UV. Just a thought.

Another thought was that as we all know of Draco's true loylaties Snape could use these too by shifting the whole Snape is a spy theory onto Draco. If he needed protecting Draco could be hidden at Grimmauld right? No one would like it but it'd make for a fun twist right?

Your thoughts...

Amelia xxxx

:welcome: Amelia Snape!

The tangled webs that Snape does weave; it is amazing he can keep them all straight. I know I couldn't do it.

Draco hiding at Grimmauld Place...now there's an idea I have not heard.

Thanks for the welcome Aislin.

I just thought it would be interesting for Snape to show up there with Draco and Fawkes and explain everything to harry. Some necessary angsty tension to start the book off.

Amelia xxx

The more angst, the better.

Draco getting thrown into the mix. Hmm...I guess it all depends on whether or not Draco is going to end up redeemed somehow. He couldn't kill Dumbledore to his credit. It did look like he was thinking about taking up Dumbledore's offer but I wonder if he was just thinking about getting away alive and not really thinking about the possible consquences. I am probaby making no sense as I ramble. I think that Draco has a better chance of ending up being on the good side but not necessarily a good guy like Snape. But, taking Draco to Grimmauld Place is a risky move on Snape's part because Draco's future is still uncertain. Does he have Snape's ability to play the double agent?

True.

And no one has Snape's ability. He's a genius. Lol. Snape lover much? :D

I wasn't saying that Draco could play a double agent more of the blame could be shifted from Snape to Draco and Draco could become the spy- anyways this is porbably not making any sense lol. I'm not quite sure how to explain...

Amelia xxx

No, don't give up! I'd love to hear your idea about Draco. If I messed it up, I am sorry.

If Snape did take Draco to Grimmauld Place for safety and then Fawkes showed up, Snape would have some explaining to do to Draco and then if Harry showed up, oh man.

Is #12 still protected? If so, Dumbledore has told the Dursleys about it, so he could have made arrangements for Draco and his family as well... maybe??

Wow, this theory is a great one! I have been away all summer and havent got to see any cool intersting threads or posts or anything because ive been on vacation. The thing is, Im on vacation in LONDON!! So I should be all over the boards for the fact that Harrys house is right around the corner. OK but back on the boards for a but and we can get back to this theory (which is a really well thought out one by the way and I like the piture of Snape right next to Fawkes- what movie is that from??).

I once, about a year ago had a theory of my own on HPANA and it was all about the fact that Fawkes has a mind of his own. I mean lets look at it, DD says himself that "It must have taken great loyalty for Fawkes to come to you" - Thats not the word for word quote, but its something like that and the point is that DD clearly says this in a way that shows he himself has no control over Fawkes. Hence, Fawkes has a mind of his own. I also noted in my old theory that Fawkes came to DDs aid as ahe took an Avada Kedavra in the mouth for Dumbledore, and I think I pointed out 1 more thing, all of which pretty much proved that Fawkes can think for himself and is not in any way controlled by Dumbledore. HOWEVER, even though Ive gone over the books many many times, this theory has mad me realize that Fawkes actually tries to communicate with everyone else. I think on one of your rebutles you gave several quotes where Fawkes cries out or skwaks not only when someone defends DD, but when he has something to say. I was reading some of the posts from V1 and I came across a post that talked about how Fawkes made a little cry when DD and Harry were discussing Snape, and it seemed as if Fawkes was trying to say something to defend Snape. SOO, if Fawkes can be very happy when someone supports DD, I think we can assume the opposite--that Fawkes would be very sad when no one supports DD. This was a GREAT pick up, and a nice theory!

As for the Hagrid thing, I think you are on to something also...I dont think its just coincidence that Fawkes stopped crying when Hagrid came. And I dont think its coincidence that Hagrid only mentions Snape once and never again. As JK said that book 6 and 7 should be just one big book, I think we havent yet come across the part in the book where Hagrid accidently reveals a huge secret. I think he will do just that in Book 7, and it will involve Snape.

Now ... the location of Fawkes. I think its pretty much easy to say that he is not with Snape. Only because Snape will be with Voldemort, and if Voldemort sees Fawkes with Snape Voldy will know where Snapes true legence lies. I think Fawkes will end up with either Aberforth or Hagrid, those are my best bets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgoRetla
I get the feeling that phoenixes are very independent, and it will be Harry who sees one. If not Fawkes, then perhaps a new phoenix, with a scar in the shape of the London underground on it's knee.


^that would be awesome^

yes it would be... *hopes and prays that this happens in book 7* :cool: :) ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by LindseyScorno
I feel that if Harry saw Fawkes with Snape, he might not neccesarilly be convinced as much as angered. He might think that Fawkes is mislead in trusting Snape because Dumbledore was his owner. Harry gets angered and confused to easily to think things through.

That's probably right, but seeing Snape and Fawkes together would at least get Harry thinking a little more about Snape rather than just assuming he's evil. He does have a tendency to be rather impulsive in that area... he needs to work on that, in case he meets up with Snape again. He has to go in there with his mind clear in order to hear things from Snape's point of view, and that will require him to grow up quite abit.

Maybe fawkes will help harry in some way.

:welcome: Red_and_Gold and chloefire!

Red_and_Gold, I am very jealous of you vacationing in London. I spent my junior year of college in London and I am beyond anxious to get back.

I like your idea that Fawkes has a mind of his own because it throws CHOICES back into the arena. Fawkes is not loyal to Du,bledore because he has to be but because he chooses to be. Yes, Dumbledore did say that phoenixes make highly faithful pets but Fawkes takes that one step further. Fawkes is a "faithful pet" to people who are loyal to Dumbledore. Fawkes did not have to go to the Chamber to fight the basilisk as phoenixes tend to stay away from battle but Fawkes chose to go.

cruplover, the protection of #12 would bring us to the issue of what happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies.

Oh, look! aislin said my favorite word - CHOICES!! Even Muggle pets have certain choices and freedoms, and magical pets seem to enjoy the same rights. My dogs are free to choose how they like our friends and guests, and there are indeed some they like better than others. I can make them behave, but I can't make them like a person. Fawkes has the same rights, and he seems drawn to those who share his loyalty to Dumbledore. Sounds like Snape and Fawkes have common ground there, no?

I wonder if Fawkes and Snape represent the spectrum of loyalty to Dumbledore. Given the faithful nature of phoenixes, Fawkes was probably loyal to Dumbledore from the get-go while with Snape, it took awhile longer; after Dumbledore gave him a way out from Voldemort and all that jazz. Just an idea I am throwing out there.

Perhaps Fawkes used to be willing to supply Snape with tears for healing potions, and this was a proof of Snape's loyalty -- note how Slughorn is willing to beg, borrow, or steal ingredients, and how Ollivander only manages to get 2 Fawkes-feathers for his wands; clearly for the rarer stuff there's no magical mail-order option.

So aislin, is it fair to say that Fawkes and Snape both were able to choose how their loyalties to Dumbledore advanced?

:welcome: deBergerac

cruplover, I think it is fair to say that. I think their loyalties devolped over time to the degree that it is at today. Fawkes had a slight advantage in that phoenixes are naturally faithful but a lot can and should be said about Snape's loyalty devolpment.

I think maybeif Harry saw Snape and Fawkes together, which I think is likely, he'd think snape tricked Fawkes, but inside he'll know that Fawkes knows who is loyal to dumbledore, meaning that Snape, although he's a slimy git, is (for lack of a better word) good.

:welcome: Nidale93!

Harry seeing Fawkes with Snape is going to lead to Harry having to confront his pre-concieved notions about Snape.

:welcome: Nidale93!

Harry seeing Fawkes with Snape is going to lead to Harry having to confront his pre-concieved notions about Snape.Yes it will and it will force him to grow up even more, which would definitely be a good thing :tu::).

It will be a real test of Harry's character to see how he deals with Snape after seeing him with Fawkes. I think Harry will be able to accept Snape's help which will be a huge thing in and off itself. Wouldn't it be great if Snape also had to accept help from Harry?

It will be a real test of Harry's character to see how he deals with Snape after seeing him with Fawkes. I think Harry will be able to accept Snape's help which will be a huge thing in and off itself. Wouldn't it be great if Snape also had to accept help from Harry?
Yes it would be, even if it was only temporarily... :)

It would be a really telling character moment for Harry to offer Snape help.

I wonder what Snape did to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore to Fawkes. Harry defended Dumbledore to Tom Marvolo Riddle in CoS, so what did Snape do?

I believe he might have shared some knowledge with Dumbledore about Horcruxes. We know Snape is very into Dark Arts. I guess he was there with R.A.B. to destroy the Locket Horcrux, that would have surely made him trustworthy. Besides, Snape is also very good at potions, so probably he was the one assisting R.A.B.

Harry and Snape maybe have to trust each other because Dumbledore both gave them pieces of information and they can only destroy Voldemort by sharing that info. So to succeed in their shared interests: defeating Voldemort, they will have to co-operate. During this path, they ill maybe be able to set aside their mutual hatred. I don't suppose them to overcome it completely, but at least understand each other for who they are.

It would be a really telling character moment for Harry to offer Snape help.

I wonder what Snape did to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore to Fawkes. Harry defended Dumbledore to Tom Marvolo Riddle in CoS, so what did Snape do?

If you believe that Dubledore's plan was to have Snape protect Draco and kill him if necessary to ensure both their saftey and continue to believe Dumbledore that Harry will defeat Voldemort, though he did not want to kill Dumbledore nor believed that Harry really could. I would say that might do it.

:welcome: MRWHITE213!

I do like your idea. I was working from the standpoint of Snape proving his loyalty earlier on as such, I see your idea as a re-enforcer of Snape's loyalties.


After Harry publically defends Dumbledore to Voldemort is when Fawkes comes to Harry's aid. I am wondering what Snape could have said and to whom he could have said something to. Dumbledore tells Harry that he must have shown great loyalty for nothing else would have brought Fawkes to him. So maybe, Snape would not have had to tell a third person (given his sitaution, that was probably unadvisable) but maybe he expressed it so clearly to Dumbledore that Fawkes knew.

I do think Snape would have shared his suspicions about the Horcruxes with Dumbledore. That would have shown loyalty in that Snape told Dumbledore something important about how to bring down Voldemort. By the time he is vaprozed, Dumbledore alludes to knowing more about Voldemort than letting on which suggests that Snape had previously informed Dumbledore that he suspected that Voldemort had atleast one Horcrux. I need to go look back on Dumbledore discussing the evolution of the Horcrux Theory with Harry.

If you believe that Dubledore's plan was to have Snape protect Draco and kill him if necessary to ensure both their saftey and continue to believe Dumbledore that Harry will defeat Voldemort, though he did not want to kill Dumbledore nor believed that Harry really could. I would say that might do it.

I am afraid I am missing some syntaxis over here :) Will you please write your same thought in simple statements please?

wowzers aislin I go away for a little bit and were on v2!

Love this theory and I agree with what you're saying about Snape and the horcruxes...

Do I smell another thread?

Hi again, everybody.
I wonder what Snape did to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore to Fawkes. This is a fun question. We were wondering if Fawkes helped Dumbledore to see if Snape was really "returned" and loyal before he started teaching a Hogwarts. Snape probably has had to prove his loyalty several times, since being a double spy is so ambiguous. Perhaps if Fawkes keeps accepting him each time he reported to Dumbledore, the headmaster knew he could keep counting on Snape?

I do think Snape would have shared his suspicions about the Horcruxes with Dumbledore.Its hard to imagine that Snape would be healing Dumbledore's curse wounds and not have discussed horcruxes with Dumbledore. Snape has probably been researching curses and their cures in anticipation of what Dumbledore might find on the Horcurx hunt.

If Snape is as clever and as good as some of us suspect, it would seem that he and Dumbledore have done a lot of planning together over the years. Dumbledore has been gathering information and people to bring down Voldemort, and protect the Boy Who Lived. Snape has taken an active role by spying and trying to keep tabs on Harry (especially in the corridors at night :lol: ).

Harry might have to go to Snape for healing! That would be hard for the boy to do, but it would give them a great moment for us to read! :D

I am afraid I am missing some syntaxis over here :) Will you please write your same thought in simple statements please?

Basically, if Dumbledore told Snape "if it comes down to you keeping your cover and Draco safe or blowing your cover and saving me, don't save me, kill me. " though Snape did not want to have to sacrifice Dumbledore.

That may have been the argument that Hagrid had seen they were having, Snape stating he did not want to have to sacrifice Dumbledore and Dumbledore making him promise to do so if necessary in order for Snape and Draco to remain safe.

Perhaps if Fawkes keeps accepting him each time he reported to Dumbledore, the headmaster knew he could keep counting on Snape?

Ooooo. Maybe Snape did not need to vocalize/show his loyalties, maybe Fawkes just sensed it. Like Fawkes could see down to Snape's very core. Maybe Fawkes has a similair ability to Dumbledore's X-Ray vision, only more powerful.Harry was out of eyesight in the Chamber so he needed to vocalize it to call Fawkes.

Snape is not stupid. Even if Dumbledore hadn't told Snape what he was up to, Snape would have figured it out. It just seems silly to me that they would not have discussed Horcruxes. Why else would Dumbledore insist upon seeing Severus and not Madam Pomfrey? How else could Dumbledore have been saved by Snape's timely actions if Snape had no idea what to do?

Ooooo. Maybe Snape did not need to vocalize/show his loyalties, maybe Fawkes just sensed it. Like Fawkes could see down to Snape's very core. Maybe Fawkes has a similair ability to Dumbledore's X-Ray vision, only more powerful.Harry was out of eyesight in the Chamber so he needed to vocalize it to call Fawkes.

Good point. There is also the possibility that sometime after Voldemort had fallen back at Goderic's Hollow that Snape showed increadable loyalty to Dumbledore and Fawkes responded to the call much like he did with Harry in CoS

Snape is not stupid. Even if Dumbledore hadn't told Snape what he was up to, Snape would have figured it out. It just seems silly to me that they would not have discussed Horcruxes. Why else would Dumbledore insist upon seeing Severus and not Madam Pomfrey? How else could Dumbledore have been saved by Snape's timely actions if Snape had no idea what to do?

Snape is the potions master and a member of the Order of Phoenix. Snape would be less likly to ask questions on how Dumbledore ended up in the state he was in and be more likley to come up with an antidote for the potion that Dumbledore drank just on describing the properties of the potion and how he was being affected by it. I don't think they ever had to have discussed horcruxes.

I'm undecided on Snape's knowledge of the horcrux hunt. I tend to think he doesn't know, because that would be one huge thing to hide from Voldemort when Death Eater Snape has to report for duty. Even if he has suspicions, I don't believe he would ask Dumbledore specific questions for the same reason.

You 2 do make excellent points. Hmm...I always had a feeling that Snape knew or atleast suspected Horcruxes. I do think he is a far better Occulmens then he lets on (which is saying alot) so if he did know, I think he would be able to hide it from Voldemort. However, as always, there is a chance that I am wrong. Guess we just have to wait until book 7.

aislin, you may be correct, especially since as Snape pointed out, Voldemort is concidered "the greatest legillimens the world has ever seen." Voldemort would believe his ablilities to be infalable and underestimate the power of occulmens that Snape does have. We all have to wait til book 7 to find out how badly we missed on all the debates! :D

It's just such a Snape thing to say "Are you suggesting I hoodwinked the world's greatest Legilimens?" I happen to think he did-he somehow managed to stay alive this long. But, hey, if I am wrong, I will laugh long and hard at how off the mark I was!

It's just such a Snape thing to say "Are you suggesting I hoodwinked the world's greatest Legilimens?" I happen to think he did-he somehow managed to stay alive this long. But, hey, if I am wrong, I will laugh long and hard at how off the mark I was!

It is. That is why I am a fence sitter when it comes to Snape's loyalties. I have no problem seeing it from both sides and they both have very strong arguments. I laugh at the end of every book on how silly Jo makes me look when I go back and see how far off I was on so many of the theories I came up with that made perfect sence.....:lol:

Hi! I just found this thread and wow it's really interesting, great job everyone! :clap:


After Harry publically defends Dumbledore to Voldemort is when Fawkes comes to Harry's aid. I am wondering what Snape could have said and to whom he could have said something to. Dumbledore tells Harry that he must have shown great loyalty for nothing else would have brought Fawkes to him. So maybe, Snape would not have had to tell a third person (given his sitaution, that was probably unadvisable) but maybe he expressed it so clearly to Dumbledore that Fawkes knew.


Maybe it was something about Dumbledore Snape didn't say when he was being forced to or threatened by Voldemort, e.g. that he knew about the Horcruxes, or something about Harry, or anything else,...That would have ocurred quite recently though, only after GoF and I'm sure Dumbledore had proof about Snape's loyalty well before, even before letting him teach at Hogwarts, I suppose.

I don't know why I have this idea the thing Snape said/didn't say was to Voldemort, not just some random Death Eater so it must have happened before Voldemort killed the Potters and we know about one important thing that happened around then, the Prophecy.

Maybe Snape didn't tell Voldemort the whole thing even though he had heard it, on Dumbledore's orders of course. We know that DD's (from OotP) and Trelawney's (HBP) stories on how and when Snape was caught don't match.

Maybe Dumbledore had to tell Harry what Snape had told Voldemort (that he was detected halfway through the prophecy) because of the possibility of Voldemort Legilimensing Harry and learning about it.

Sorry if this was a bit complicated, I'm off to bed now...and keep up the excellent work!

:welcome: witch007!

I am rather intruiged by the idea of it was what Snape didn't say. If Snape did overhear the whole prophecy (of which I am not even going to touch) and only told Voldemort the first half and withheld the second half, told Dumbledore he did and continued to do so is interesting. Which would bring us right back to the idea that Snape is more than capable at hoodwinking the world's greatest Legilimens.

But merely by being Dumbledore's spy, Snape has already hoodwinked the world's greatest legilimens! Voldemort may have his moments of doubt, but Snape is still alive, so his spy role is unconfirmed at best. I happen to think that if Bellatrix would simply shut up and leave Snape alone, Voldemort wouldn't doubt Snape a bit - if he does in the first place.

:
I am rather intruiged by the idea of it was what Snape didn't say. If Snape did overhear the whole prophecy (of which I am not even going to touch) and only told Voldemort the first half and withheld the second half, told Dumbledore he did and continued to do so is interesting. Which would bring us right back to the idea that Snape is more than capable at hoodwinking the world's greatest Legilimens.

Maybe Snape did hear the whole prophecy. We know that when Trelawney makes a prophecy she can't remember it, but she remembers being interupte by Snape getting caught listening. If he only heard half the prophecy she probably wouldn't remember him.

:welcome: Hermione08!

But merely by being Dumbledore's spy, Snape has already hoodwinked the world's greatest legilimens!

:tu: An excellent point! It makes you wonder why Bella is now gung-ho about discrediting Snape. Is it merely because he stayed out of Azkaban or is there something else?

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:tu: An excellent point! It makes you wonder why Bella is now gung-ho about discrediting Snape. Is it merely because he stayed out of Azkaban or is there something else?

Of course it could be a situation where Voldemort is feeding Snape false info to lure Pheonix members into traps and bad situations. Voldemort is, after all, a master manipulater aswell. Another point of view, though I do believe that Voldemort is putting too much stock and pride into his legilimen skills and not enough in Snape's occulmens, but still very much in the relm of possibility.

Witch007 makes a very good point: What is not said, and how Snape might mislead Voldemort is just as valid a way to being loyal to Dumbledore!

Poor old Bella. I thought it was because she never denied following the Dark Lord, and those who stayed out of Askaban did. She, therefore is better, and the others ought to be punished more. And, I think she is jealous of anybody who is in Voldemorts favor. She wants to be the most favorite. I had not even thought it might be more.

Oh, I just thought of something. If we think Fawkes can show Dumbledore who is loyal to his cause, apparently Nagini cannot serve the same function, or Snape can fool snakes, too! :lol:

If we think Fawkes can show Dumbledore who is loyal to his cause, apparently Nagini cannot serve the same function, or Snape can fool snakes, too! :lol:

:lol: Maybe Snape is a secret Parlsemouth-most likely he is not but it's fun to speculate anyways. Why do I feel that HPSpec would like that one?

Hmmm...I wonder if we could tie in Nagini to the whole Voldemort having doubts about Snape-be they coming from Bellatrix or himself. We don't know that much about Nagini-where did Voldemort get her? when did he? what kind of power does he have over her?-just as we don't know that much about Fawkes. I think we do know more about Fawkes but there is still some things shrouded in mystery. If Nagini can tell loyalty and senses that Snape is not entirly loyal, I don't think Voldemort would kill Snape right out. Snape is a very key figure to Voldemort, or atleast he was until the events of HBP.

I was thinking the same thing about Nagini, OddmentTweak! Since Voldemort and Dumbledore are kind of similar in some ways, I wondered if Voldemort's pet didn't have the same 'function' as Dumbledore's. (Although I hope it doesn't work the other way round and Fawkes isn't Dumbledore's Horcrux)

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but maybe Fawkes' ultimate confirmation of someone's loyalty is healing them. It would fit that the person has to be trustworthy enough for Fawkes to shed tears over them. Maybe he has already healed Snape.

Or maybe Harry will manage to Sectumsempra him (don't ask me how :scared: ) and Fawkes will heal him in front of Harry.

Maybe he has already healed Snape.


I think it is a safe bet to say he has. Who knows what goes on in those DE meetings and after Snape stumbled back to the dungeons, perhaps Fawkes met him down there and healed him? I like this idea because we know that Fawkes has healed Harry on several occasions and it would heighten the link between Snape and Harry.

Who knows what goes on in those DE meetings and after Snape stumbled back to the dungeons, perhaps Fawkes met him down there and healed him?

I don’t think of DE meetings here but about the private interrogations done by Voldemort. Harry witnessed one of the punishments of a DE in his mind in OotP. And in HBP Dumbledore speaks about the time Lucius was punished by Voldemort for giving the diary away:

When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold.

I don’t think one can be near Voldemort and survive all this time without being punished by him once. He is bad tempered to say the least. He can be annoyed by the fly on the wall and be cruel to whoever is around. I see Fawkes healing Snape after he saw him return from one of the punishments severely hurt but nevertheless ready to go back to Voldemort because this was the place he could be most helpful for Dumbledore. Whoever is ready to take personal risk of life for the cause of freedom to wizardkind must be loyal.

I am also very interested in Nagini. I see her as Fawkes counterpart with Voldemort, something he brought back from his study trips, mirroring Dumbledore here. And as Dumbledore and Fawkes share many characteristics up to the point we are sometimes led to believe they are one I think Voldemort and Nagini share the same traits.

And even though loyalty is important to Voldemort it is only the loyalty from his DE towards him. He is not loyal to them as it is a concept connected to love (whatever love this is – blind love up to worship, and here is Bella the best example, is love but a bad kind). And so I think neither Voldemort nor Nagini can sense loyalty or the lack of it but only fear.

He only senses the fear of those who have been disloyal in a way and their insecurity. This makes them suspicious and starts the interrogating process via Legilimence. Someone like Snape who shut down all his emotions – put them on ice to say – will never be sensed by Nagini.

This closed down emotions are normal for Voldemort who had done the same long ago. He would only become suspicious of Snape because of the power behind it. But this concept is unfamiliar to the other DE who worship or once worshiped Voldemort. Especially Bella can’t work with this as she is very emotionally involved. She senses problems here but will never be able to explain feelings to her Dark Lord.

Nymphchild, :tu: :tu: I very much like this mirror of Nagini and Fawkes that you have painted for us. Thanks for pointing out that Voldemort only wants loyalty to him-he would never say something like "I am not worried, Snape, I am with you." I am also intruiged by your idea of putting emotions on ice and the implications it has.

You know I've been thinking, that maybe the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape is because of Fawkes. In COS Dumbledore tells Harry that Fawkes came to his aid because he showed loyalty to him. Maybe Dumbledore can use Fawkes as kind of a barometer of loyalty.

:welcome: Grim_Reapster!

Fawkes as a baromter of loyalty, :tu: I like it. It would fit with Fawkes having an extra sensory dection device of loyalty (if you will, badly phrased I know). Perhaps when Snape first went to Dumbledore after the prophecy night, Fawkes could tell right away that Snape was sincere. Maybe a wounded Snape even went to Dumbledore and Fawkes healed him right away! Ok, maybe that is a stretch but I really like the idea of Fawkes being able to see to the person's core.

:welcome: Grim_Reapster!

Fawkes as a baromter of loyalty, :tu: I like it. It would fit with Fawkes having an extra sensory dection device of loyalty (if you will, badly phrased I know). Perhaps when Snape first went to Dumbledore after the prophecy night, Fawkes could tell right away that Snape was sincere. Maybe a wounded Snape even went to Dumbledore and Fawkes healed him right away! Ok, maybe that is a stretch but I really like the idea of Fawkes being able to see to the person's core.


Thanks....:blush:

I've been thinking how cool it would be in the last book, if Fawkes showed up once again, only this time he came to Snapes aid. I think this, above any other evidence, would convince Harry that Snape is still loyal to Dumbledore. Maybe Fawkes will come between Harry, and Snape. Only this time he'll be protecting Snape.

I like how you took this a step further, Nymphchild. :tu:
He only senses the fear of those who have been disloyal in a way and their insecurity. This makes them suspicious and starts the interrogating process via Legilimence.This phrase, "senses fear" rang a bell so I looked it up."We are still united under the Dark Mark, then? Or are we?"
He put back his terrible face and sniffed, his slit-like nostrils widening.
"I smell guilt," he said. "There is a stench of guilt upon the air."
Sensing fear, smelling guilt: those are phrases we use for animals, isn't it? That dog can sense you are afraid of it.

Voldemort seems very cocky and sure of his ability to sense the motives of his DEs. Having Nagini reinforce his instincts is a great idea. It would add another layer onto his legilimence, one more uncanny way for him to control and make others fear his powers. It makes sense too, that Snape only need control his emotions in front of Voldemort and Nagini to help him avoid being mind searched by legilimency.

I also like the idea of Snape returning to Hogwarts mentally if not physically 'banged up' from appearing in front of Voldemort, and Fawkes coming to him and singing strength and hope back into him.

:welcome: Grim_Reapster!

Fawkes as a baromter of loyalty, :tu: I like it. It would fit with Fawkes having an extra sensory dection device of loyalty (if you will, badly phrased I know). Perhaps when Snape first went to Dumbledore after the prophecy night, Fawkes could tell right away that Snape was sincere. Maybe a wounded Snape even went to Dumbledore and Fawkes healed him right away! Ok, maybe that is a stretch but I really like the idea of Fawkes being able to see to the person's core.
I like that idea as well... the very fact that Fawkes reacted so strongly [he squawked - a protest] when Harry was telling Dumbledore that it was Snape who went and told Voldemort about the 1st part of the prophecy... it makes complete sense that Fawkes would be able to sense whether a person is sincerely loyal or not, it would come in handy since Dumbledore isn't perfect himself in that way.

Great catch, OddT. I forgot about this quote by Voldemort after his resurrection. But he behaves like he is the snake. Very animal like.

But I found another quote in the next chapter that connects Voldemort, his snake and the phoenix song:

The Death Eaters were shouting, they were asking Voldemort for instructions; they were closing in, re-forming the circle around Harry and Voldemort, the snake slithering at their heels, some of them drawing their wands –
The golden thread connecting Harry and Voldemort splintered: through the wands remained connected, a thousand more offshoots arced high over Harry and Voldemort, criss-crossing all around them, until they were enclosed in a golden, dome-shaped web, a cage of light, beyond which the Death Eaters circled like jackals, their cries strangely muffled now …
<snip> And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air … it was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognised, though he had heard it only once before in his life … phoenix song …

The phoenix song alone keeps master and pet away from each other. Their connection might be magic of its own kind. But it is nothing compared to the ancient magic of a phoenix Voldemort loves to dismiss so easily.

The phoenix song alone could show us who's loyal to the Order! I can't find the quote but I'm sure it said somewhere that the song gives hope and courage to the 'right' side and strikes fear into the enemy's heart.

This way we will perhaps find more people who aren't terrified of Fawkes' song (Snape, Draco, Narcissa...) and maybe even someone who is, from our side (there are many theories about Order traitors out there).

Sensing fear, smelling guilt: those are phrases we use for animals, isn't it? That dog can sense you are afraid of it.

Snakes smell with their tongues. Now, Voldemort's nose is not what it used to be, so did he have Nagini sniffing it out and reporting to him? It would be a twist on Fawkes' ability to sense loyalty if Nagini can sense disloyalty and fear. Also, Voldemort has taken on a more reptilian appearnece, so maybe that play a role.

The phoenix song alone keeps master and pet away from each other. Their connection might be magic of its own kind. But it is nothing compared to the ancient magic of a phoenix Voldemort loves to dismiss so easily.

I thought about the power of love when I read your post. Harry and Fawkes share a bond due to their love for Dumbledore. Nagini and Voldemort lack such a bond. She merely serves a purpose for him, there is no connection.

The song of the phoenix gives strength and hope to those it sings for, 'increasing the courage of the pure of heart and striking fear into the hearts of the impure' according to Scamander (FB).

witch007, was that the quote you were looking for? :tu: for you idea about who is and who is not terrified of Fawkes' song.

Snakes smell with their tongues. Now, Voldemort's nose is not what it used to be, so did he have Nagini sniffing it out and reporting to him? It would be a twist on Fawkes' ability to sense loyalty if Nagini can sense disloyalty and fear. Also, Voldemort has taken on a more reptilian appearnece, so maybe that play a role.
I really like this idea. As Snape said when talking about Voldemort's Legilamency abilities he used the word "almost." He is "almost" always aware if people are lying to him. If Nagini can sense disloyality and fear and report it to Voldemort, she is a very valuable tool tool for him to have. If Voldemort's Legilamency fails, she can tell him.


I thought about the power of love when I read your post. Harry and Fawkes share a bond due to their love for Dumbledore. Nagini and Voldemort lack such a bond. She merely serves a purpose for him, there is no connection.
I agree there is no bond (that we know of) between Voldemort, Nagini and someone else. Also, there is no doubt that the bonds that Fawkes shares with people is greater than any bond between Voldemort and Nagini. But, I don't agree that she merely serves a purpose for him.I think there is a little something more there. Dumbledore said that Nagini is the only thing Voldemort has ever felt close to affection for. I think this can be an important clue. It will be interesting to see how Voldemort reacts if and when Nagini is destroyed.

I've been thinking about Nagini sensing fear and she must sense it a lot since a lot of the DE's must be afraid of Voldemort. I mean we know about 10 of them were in Azkaban but all of the others who managed to keep themselves out only returned to Voldemort because they were afraid and had no choice, really. The only really loyal DE's we've seen are Bella and Crouch Jr.

Voldemort must now that the majority (if not all) of his followers fear him to some extent, so even if Nagini sensed Snape's fear Voldemort would think it's 'normal'. Now, reporting to DD must be a lot more scary than the average DE's fears but well, that's where Occlumency comes into play so that Snape only shows the 'average level of fear'.


The song of the phoenix gives strength and hope to those it sings for, 'increasing the courage of the pure of heart and striking fear into the hearts of the impure' according to Scamander (FB).

witch007, was that the quote you were looking for? :tu: for you idea about who is and who is not terrified of Fawkes' song.

yes, thank you, aislin! I was sure I read it somewhere but I looked through all of the books and couldn't find it! Not FB though... :rolleyes:

Dumbledore said that Nagini is the only thing Voldemort has ever felt close to affection for. I think this can be an important clue. It will be interesting to see how Voldemort reacts if and when Nagini is destroyed.

Fair enough. Does he feel some affection towards her because she is a Horcrux? I probably should avoid opening that Pandora's box but it was bound to come up anyways. Does he feel affection because she is a snake and it underlines his connection to Salzaar Slytherin? Every villian has a pet and the quickest way to make them mad is to do something to the pet.

Voldemort must now that the majority (if not all) of his followers fear him to some extent, so even if Nagini sensed Snape's fear Voldemort would think it's 'normal'. Now, reporting to Dumbledore must be a lot more scary than the average DE's fears but well, that's where Occlumency comes into play so that Snape only shows the 'average level of fear'.

Voldemort does rule by fear so he must be used to it. In fact, he would probably get suspicious if he didn't sense a level of fear. Perhaps when he made that remark of smelling fear, there was more fear to be felt. Which makes sense given the time span between when he was last in power and all that has happened since. These DEs have worked very hard to stay out of Azkaban.

I am leaving to go to Jo's reading in NYC on Tuesday and I can't wait to see what you all come up with while I am gone!

Cool, aislin. Have fun and bring us back a report. :cool:

I am sure that meeting up with a returned Voldemort (whom you probably really hoped was gone) would cause a lot of fear in the Death Eaters gathered around! Voldemort could have just said "smell fear" as a figure of speach and been confident it applied to the situation.

Since fear can be a strong emotion, it might be useful for Snape to hide things he does not want Voldemort to see behind his fear.

Fair enough. Does he feel some affection towards her because she is a Horcrux? I probably should avoid opening that Pandora's box but it was bound to come up anyways. Does he feel affection because she is a snake and it underlines his connection to Salzaar Slytherin? Every villian has a pet and the quickest way to make them mad is to do something to the pet.Maybe Voldemort feels 'affection' because Nagini's 'milk' sustained him until he could regain his body. Pettigrew 'milked' her (although it was snake venom) and gave it to BabyMort, kind of like 'mother's milk', I suppose.

...maybe Fawkes' ultimate confirmation of someone's loyalty is healing them. It would fit that the person has to be trustworthy enough for Fawkes to shed tears over them. Maybe he has already healed Snape.
I like this idea.


the very fact that Fawkes reacted so strongly [he squawked - a protest] when Harry was telling Dumbledore that it was Snape who went and told Voldemort about the 1st part of the prophecy... it makes complete sense that Fawkes would be able to sense whether a person is sincerely loyal or not, it would come in handy since Dumbledore isn't perfect himself in that way.This is just one of the reasons I believe in Snape.

Maybe Voldemort feels 'affection' because Nagini's 'milk' sustained him until he could regain his body. Pettigrew 'milked' her (although it was snake venom) and gave it to BabyMort, kind of like 'mother's milk', I suppose.

I saw a disscussion somewhere here on CoS (can't remember which thread it was) about this. People were wondering how exactly Voldemort made his Babymort body, cause we know from his graveyard speech that he invented some spells and used a potion from unicorn blood and Nagini's venom but he must also have had something to form his body from, perhaps a piece of Nagini's shreded skin, since he looked so snakelike: 'hairless and scaly loooking, a dark, raw, reddish black...its face...was flat and snake-like, with gleaming red eyes.' So Voldemort might consider Nagini as a sort of 'mother figure'.

anyway...sorry for being off topic :p but while we're on the topic of Nagini, has anyone seen the latest editorial on mugglenet about Snape=Nagini? :lol:



I am leaving to go to Jo's reading in NYC on Tuesday and I can't wait to see what you all come up with while I am gone!

wow! hope you had a great time!

from what I understood from the reports Jo didn't rule out the chance for any character to redeem themselves, except Vodemort of course. :clap: Right?
And she wouldn't answer the question whether anyone else (except Draco) would change sides? hmm...

I am intruiged by the idea of Nagini's milk as being a parallel for a mother's milk. Voldemort was in fetal form and he mentioned having`Wormtail milk Nagini. Milk is not something one usually associates with snakes. It reminds me of the story of Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome, who were brought up by a she-wolf.

If we think of Nagini's milk as having restorative powers, then it is similiar to Fawkes' tears. Similair in theory bu different.

OMGosh Aislin, I've been away too long. Tomorrow I shall trawl through what I've missed and post any ideas I have or anything I aahave to add. Babysitting did call...*grumbles*

Hope ur all alright.

Btw I love Snape :love:

Amelia xxx

Hello! Been lurking on this thread for awhile. Love the theory by aislin and all the others. :D

If we think of Nagini's milk as having restorative powers, then it is similiar to Fawkes' tears. Similair in theory bu different.
Out of curiosity, do we know what kind of snake Nagini is? I don't recall any as large as her in the natural world with venom. They're usually all constrictors, aren't they? Would I be correct in concluding she is then a magical creature?

:welcome: Severin! So glad you have joined us!

:welcome: back Amelia Snape. I had missed posting with you. Can't wait to hear more from you both.




Nagini
snake
with Voldemort, current location unknown
In order to survive in his "hideous baby" form, Voldemort needed to drink regular doses of a potion created from unicorn blood and snake venom. He kept a large snake named Nagini around for this purpose. Among his other custodial duties, Wormtail had to milk venom from the snake at regular intervals (GF1). Voldemort could speak with Nagini, of course, and he promised first Wormtail, then Harry to the snake for a meal (GF). See also Horcruxes.
"naga" is Sanskrit for "snake". Readers of Rudyard Kiping's "Rikki-Tikki-Tavi" will remember that the two cobras in that story were named Nag and Nagaina, their names having been derived along the same lines as Nagini's here.
"In Buddhism and Hinduism, Nagas are a race of semi-divine snakes with great powers..." (pp. 131-132)

That's what the Lexicon had to say about Nagini. My knowledge of snakes is somewhat lacking but I had always imagined her as a large boa constrictor only with magical powers. Which would make a nice contrast to the boa that Harry accidentally set on Dudley and Piers if that boa was just a snake.

Out of curiosity, do we know what kind of snake Nagini is? I don't recall any as large as her in the natural world with venom. They're usually all constrictors, aren't they? Would I be correct in concluding she is then a magical creature?
There is a thread that talks about what type of snake Nagini might be:
Where did Tom Riddle get Nagini? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=88759)
I have to agree with you about Nagini being magical. It fits nicely with the theories about Fawkes being able to tell if someone is loyal or not. I think that the two most powerful wizards should also have two very powerful, magical pets.

I like the idea of "the two most powerful wizards should also have two very powerful, magical pets" as well.

Aislin makes a good point, and I had not though about it quite this way:If we think of Nagini's milk as having restorative powers, then it is similiar to Fawkes' tears. Similair in theory but different.

Venom does seem like an appropriate thing for Voldemort to be made of, doesn't it? :p

Nagini's powers (venom) come from the ability to attack and kill
Fawkes' powers (tears) come from empathy and his own regenerative powers

IVenom does seem like an appropriate thing for Voldemort to be made of, doesn't it? :p

Nagini's powers (venom) come from the ability to attack and kill
Fawkes' powers (tears) come from empathy and his own regenerative powers

Agreed, very much so. They keep with the contrasts between the two creatures, and between the two wizards "attached" to the pets, Dumbledore and Voldemort. Nagini's venom only sustains when mixed with unicorn blood, which we've heard leads to a very cursed version of life. I wonder then what Fawkes's tears would do to the evil inside and out Voldemort? Nagini gets milked, and while she may give willingly, it's a sharp contrast to Fawkes's willingly shed tears, which Fawkes cries where they are needed.

Thanks for the welcome! :D

Nagini gets milked, and while she may give willingly, it's a sharp contrast to Fawkes's willingly shed tears, which Fawkes cries where they are needed.
I wonder just how much a willing "pet" Nagini actually is. Fawkes seems to have chosen to side with Dumbledore. Could this also be another contrast of these creatures? Does Voldemort have a hold over Nagini and she could turn on him given half the chance? A friend of mine strongly believes this.

I used to think Fawkes and Nagini might have a confrontation in the last book. On the theory that Nagini could somehow sense disloyalty, she might catch Snape out and attack. Enter Fawkes to offer help. If Harry were there it would have to register that Snape at least isn't working for Voldemort. I've never sat down and worked the whole thing out, just though I'd throw in the idea.

I wonder just how much a willing "pet" Nagini actually is. Fawkes seems to have chosen to side with Dumbledore. Could this also be another contrast of these creatures? Does Voldemort have a hold over Nagini and she could turn on him given half the chance? A friend of mine strongly believes this.


It's probably greatly helped by the fact that Voldemort is a Parselmouth, I wonder what would happen if Harry tried to talk to Nagini in Parseltongue. Would she listen to him? Perhaps in a situation where they would be alone (= without Voldemort to talk to her too)...

Nagini's powers (venom) come from the ability to attack and kill
Fawkes' powers (tears) come from empathy and his own regenerative powers

:tu: What a great comparison of not only the 2 pets but also of their owners. Hmm..also represents both sides of Snape's personality/abilities in so far as that he can heal and cause harm.

Nagini's venom only sustains when mixed with unicorn blood, which we've heard leads to a very cursed version of life. I wonder then what Fawkes's tears would do to the evil inside and out Voldemort? Nagini gets milked, and while she may give willingly, it's a sharp contrast to Fawkes's willingly shed tears, which Fawkes cries where they are needed.

:tu: Ooooo. Nagini's venom is not enough, something more is needed. Not only something more but something more innocent. The combination of the "evil" venom and the "good" unicorn blood is what sustains him. How many ramifications does that have? Tons. What would phoenix tears do to Voldemort? If the innocent unicorn blood gives him a half-life, what about the tears of a phoenix willingly given? The powers of CHOICE and LOVE are jumping out at me here.

I wonder just how much a willing "pet" Nagini actually is. Fawkes seems to have chosen to side with Dumbledore. Could this also be another contrast of these creatures? Does Voldemort have a hold over Nagini and she could turn on him given half the chance?

:tu: It would continue the contrast if Nagini was more or less forced into Voldemort's service. If she can be thought of as being a Death Eater in repetillian form, then there is a possibility she could turn; ie Snape and Regulas Black. If that is to happen, then some Parlsetongue has to get involved in somehow. Witch007 poses a great question-what would happen if Harry tried to talk to her?

Severin, :clap: Love your idea about Fawkes and Nagini. I think it is brilliant.

Cool, some interesting ideas here.
The combination of the "evil" venom and the "good" unicorn blood is what sustains him. How many ramifications does that have? Tons. What would phoenix tears do to Voldemort? If the innocent unicorn blood gives him a half-life, what about the tears of a phoenix willingly given? The powers of CHOICE and LOVE are jumping out at me here.
Well spotted. How many times have I read that, but not noticed the combination of opposites? :grumble: Time to go think, again. :D

The phrase "willingly given" brought mt back to the graveyard in GoF. When Wormtail is making the potion to restore Voldemort back to body form he says "flesh of the servant, willingly given". Here we see another outside force aiding Voldemort. For someone who is so adamanet about being independent, he sure is dependent on people, animals and things (ie horcruxes).

I am still preoccupied with what phoenix tears would do to Voldemort. I see them acting in a simialir way to the unicorn blood and Lily's sacrifce. However, Voldemort would have to show loyalty to Dumbledore first!

I had a thought at work. Using these terms very lightly, Fawkes=Chosen Loyalty and Nagini=Coerced Loyalty. Nagini's is a stretch but just throwing it out there.

What has become of Fawks? Did he die when Dumbledore did? Did he accompany Dumbledore to wherever he is now? Is Fawks alive? And will he come back?

I think he's alive, hmm... last we know he was singing the lament after Dumbledore died. I hope (as do all here, I assume :p ) that he'll come back and save the day. Or at least show us, and Harry, someone's true loyalties to Dumbledore by helping/healing them. *coughSnapecough*

The phrase "willingly given" brought mt back to the graveyard in GoF. When Wormtail is making the potion to restore Voldemort back to body form he says "flesh of the servant, willingly given".

If we compare both rebirths, we can assume that "the flesh of the servant, willingly given", is Nagini's venom (and maybe even a bit of her flesh or skin). Then "the blood of the enemy" would parallel Harry's blood and unicorn blood, which really are kind of similar because unicorns are pure, innocent and we've been told (and shown) many times how Harry's heart has remained innocent and pure.

I just had a thought, if the use of unicorn blood leads to a cursed life, perhaps something similar will happen to Voldemort because he used Harry's blood and that would explain Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in GoF.

aislin, is your birthday this Thursday? If yes, :birthday: in advance because I won't be around then.

:welcome: Gryffind0r23!

Fawkes is alive somewhere out there. The questions are where did he go and when will he return? I believe in the older version we discussed where Fawkes would have gone. A popular idea was that he would go between Aberforth, Hagrid and Snape. Not staying too long with either but acting as a go-between; relaying messages and strength.

I just had a thought, if the use of unicorn blood leads to a cursed life, perhaps something similar will happen to Voldemort because he used Harry's blood and that would explain Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in GoF.

:tu: :clap: I think it is brilliant!!

witch007, yes it is my birthday on Thursday. Thanks for the greeting and I hope you come back soon!!

I just had a thought, if the use of unicorn blood leads to a cursed life, perhaps something similar will happen to Voldemort because he used Harry's blood and that would explain Dumbledore's gleam of triumph in GoF.



It's possible, in HBP, Dumbledore did tell Harry that his blood was more valuable than his own.

It does make you wonder what the effect of the unicorn's blood, the Horcruxes and Harry's blood has had on Voldemort and how it will come into play.

I really like witch007's analysis of "flesh of the servant" and "blood of the enemy". Given Voldemort's disdain for love, ofcourse he views it as the enemy!

Now to somehow tie all this back to Fawkes and Snape. I think that during Snape's lifetime as a whole, he would have fit both symbolic representaions of Nagini and Fawkes. He did serve Voldemort at some point (Nagini) and who knows what Voldemort made him do during that time phase. Then he made a choice and left Voldemort's side for good and thus made a choice to be loyal to Dumbledore (Fawkes). During the Voldemort days, his flesh was "willingly given" via the Dark Mark burned onto his left fore-arm. Since he has now turned, his blood would be viewed as "blood of the enemy".

A strech, proabably but it is fun to do anyways.

Then there is the idea of Fawkes showing up in the final battle and proving to Voldemort Snape's true loyalties.

Nagini's venom is not enough, something more is needed. Not only something more but something more innocent. The combination of the "evil" venom and the "good" unicorn blood is what sustains him. How many ramifications does that have? Tons. What would phoenix tears do to Voldemort? If the innocent unicorn blood gives him a half-life, what about the tears of a phoenix willingly given? The powers of CHOICE and LOVE are jumping out at me here.

Choices!! One of my favorite words. Great catch, that the "evil" venom is mixed with the pure innocent blood, unwillingly shed, of a unicorn. Is there a parallel there that would explain the gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye when he learned Harry's blood was unwillingly given as a part of Voldemort's rebirth? In fact, it seems that short of Wormtail's hand, everything was unwillingly given. Certainly, Mr. Riddle Sr. didn't willingly give him life nor did he enjoy the grave robbing his son must have done to obtain the bone used. We know that drinking unicorn blood gives life, but it is a cursed half-life. Now, is that half-life in the scientific sense of the word, or a spiritual sense? Harry's blood was also unwillingly given, so does that also send a curse through Voldemort's veins?

Certainly, Fawkes willingly gives tears for healing purposes, and it's not a big leap to suggest that those healing tears are made via choice and love. I like the idea that Nagini's milk isn't so willingly given as much as it is taken. I suspect she's been brainwashed, or whatever fancy, Latin-based term JKR would use in its place, so that Harry would have to do more than just chat with her in her "native" language to win her over.

:Fawkes is alive somewhere out there. The questions are where did he go and when will he return? I believe in the older version we discussed where Fawkes would have gone. A popular idea was that he would go between Aberforth, Hagrid and Snape. Not staying too long with either but acting as a go-between; relaying messages and strength.

Why wouldn't Fawks just stay at Hogwarts? There are so many people there that are loyal to Dumbledore and take care of him. AS Dumbledore once said (it went something like this), "I will only be truely gone when no one here is loyal to me." (I can't find the book to quote the exact line.) Wouldn't that mean, since Dumbledore is still there in some sort, that Fawks would remain? I got out of it that Fawks would be loyal to whoever Dumbledore was loyal to.

I got out of it that Fawks would be loyal to whoever Dumbledore was loyal to.


Yes, and one definition of loyalty is trust. In HBP, when Dumbledore tells Harry, "I'm not worried Harry, I'm with you.", he's putting his trust, and his faith, in Harry. It was as if Dumbledore was passing the torch to Harry. I think that Fawkes will come to Harrys' aid again in the final book.

But why is Fawks "hiding"? Wouldn't he just stay with Harry?

I think Fawkes went away to mourn Dumbledore, He'll be back when he's needed.

Fawkes may have gone because everyone in the hospital ward was questioning Dumbledore's trust in Snape. If Fawkes knows why Dumbledore trusted Snape (and I suspect this is true), surely Fawkes felt their doubt. He may have gone to mourn, as well. If Snape did not go directly to Voldemort when he fled Hogwarts (if he is in hiding), Fawkes may be with him.

Maebelle, you must post more often here, as your avatar pic is perfect! :tu:

I still love the idea that Fawkes responds only to loyalty, and all those who were left were in so much shock that they doubted Dumbledore's trust in Snape. Hopefully Fawkes can return and help Harry with the cause soon.

Fawkes is the symbol of loyalty to Dumbledore. He comes to Harry in CoS because Harry has said that Dumbledore, not Voldemort, is the greatest wizard in the world. Also, in CoS, Dumbledore says that he will never be gone from Hogwarts as long as those who remain are loyal to him. What happens after Dumbledore's death? Fawkes leaves the castle. Noticably, Fawkes leaves after singing a song, during which those who remained have already decieded against Snape. Now, if you are truly loyal to Dumbledore, does that mean that you have faith in his descions, even if you don't always understand them? Lupin said at Christmas that "It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do, therefore, I trust Severus", but how quickly does he jump to the conclusion that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape and that Snape is evil? Immedialty after hearing Harry's account of the Tower. In fact, no one sticks up for Snape. No one. How soon after the Tower incident does Harry start to question Dumbledore's judgements? And not just Harry, everyone. Yes, how they reacted is how anyone would react. But, all the unwavering faith in Dumbledore was gone, an in that instant, Fawkes left.

Fawkes' name comes from Guy Fawkes who tried to blow up Parliament in 1605. The plot was to kill the king James I, the Prince of Wales and as many members of Parliament as possbile. The plot was hatched because Guy Fawkes and crew were Catholic at a time when England was heavily Protestant. They had hoped that James I (James VI in Scotland, he became James I of England and thus the United Kingdom began because Elizabeth I had no children and he was the son of her cousin) would be more tolerant of Catholics because his mother, Mary Queen of Scots, was Catholic. They got hold of 36 barrels of gunpowder and stored them in the cellars of the House of Lords (English Parliament has 2 houses; the House of Lords and the House of Commons). The day before the plan was to go into action, several of the members in on the plot had second thoughts and are belived to have sent a letter warning friends not to go to Parliament the next day. The letter reached the king who had Guy Fawkes arrested, tortured and executed. To this day, on November 5 (the day the plot was foiled in 1605), Bonfire Night is celebrated (in book 1, the news reporters refer to Bonfire Night) and all over Britain, people celebrate the botched plan to blow up Parliament. Depending on whose side you take, Guy Fawkes is either a traitor or a hero (much like our own Severus Snape).

Fawkes is a phoenix who dies in flames and then is reborn through the ashes-a very fitting parrellel to someone who tried to blow up Parliament.

Hagrid plays a pivotal role during the aftermath of the Tower. I think that his first reaction is interesting. He does not want to believe Harry (who does?) but I think that after he saw Dumbledore's body, the reality set in. He first tells Harry that he could not have seen that (just like in PS/SS when he told the trio that Snape was one of the professor guarding the stone) but once he saw Dumbledore's body, Hagrid knew he was dead. Hagrid was not in the hospital wing at the time, he was moving Dumbledore's body. When he rejoins Harry, Professor McGonagall, et all, he makes no mention of Snape just that he has moved the body and thinks that Hogwarts should remain open. It is during this time that Fawkes' song goes unheard; maybe Fawkes has akready left. Harry only notices the lack of the song when he leaves the office.

I do not think Dumbledore would be angry with anyone for reacting the way that they did, he would have understood it as human nature (which it is) but I do think he would have been slightly disappointed that everyone's faith in Snape was gone in an instant. Dumbledore has such high regard for people that I don't think he would understand why people sided against Snape. The evidence is over-whelming. However, eye witness testimony has been proven in courts not to always be 100% accurate (look at the Muggle testimonies that landed Sirius in Azkaban for 12 years). Yes, Harry did see Snape cast the Avada Kedavra curse, there is no denying that, but there may be stuff he did not see (the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore the moments before it happened for one example). If Harry was put on the witness stand, the cross examiner would point out Harry's pre-existing bias against Snape in an effort to poke holes in Harry's testimony.

I think Fawkes' leaving is very symbolic. Maybe he did just leave because his master was dead. Fawkes is, after all, a very loyal pet. But I think there is more to Fawkes' leaving-the timing of it makes me wonder why.

When Fawkes chooses to come back into the story should be a pivital moment. I think Fawkes will come back once Harry has discovered the truth about Snape and trusts him as much as Dumbeldore did. He may be hovering around but will not interact with Harry until Harry trusts Snape and by doing so, trusts Dumbledore's judgements again.

This was my first post back in the first version.

And that great first post is why this thread is thriving in its second version today. :clap:

Using these terms very lightly, Fawkes=Chosen Loyalty and Nagini=Coerced Loyalty. Nagini's is a stretch but just throwing it out there.

hello! jumping in here. :) i haven't gotten a chance to read the whole thread, just the last page or so, but i'm fascinated by the discussion going on here.
nagini is what interests me most. i've never stopped to think too much about her, but since i've read these discussions, i've suddenly wondered something.

do you think its possible that nagini IS the snake that harry set loose at the zoo? if it is true that nagini is being coerced, and also that she is that snake, i wonder what she would do if she remembered harry setting her free? would it matter? would she help harry?

one thing that's bothered me is that harry speaks parseltongue, but this in no way has come back into play since COS. this scenario would be perfect.

What has become of Fawks? Did he die when Dumbledore did? Did he accompany Dumbledore to wherever he is now? Is Fawks alive? And will he come back?

fawkes is alive. he was singing a sorrowful song when Dumbledore died. also, harry thinks he's left hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore did. that's all that's been mentioned about what's become of him.

i personally think snape is going to use him as an anonymous communication to help harry... maybe. lol i think snape is good and that harry isn't capable of understanding this at the moment. so if snape is to help harry in any way, also without giving up his position as a death eater, he would need a way to communicate. and who better than fawkes? harry would certainly trust anything that came from fawkes. and if harry finds out that fawkes is loyal to snape, this is a good way to understand that snape was never a traitor.

one thing i know for sure, fawkes will be a big part of part 7. there are too many clues and ground work laid for it to ignore. firstly, Dumbledore saying that "i will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. you will also find that help will always be given at hogwarts to those who ask for it." fawkes is the reason why. he will carry on where dumbledore cannot, just as he did in COS. also, it makes no sense to use fawkes only a couple times and then have him disappear entirely for the finale. lol. but that of course, is just my opinion :)

anyway, i think i'll go read more of the thread. i'd love to hear opinions on nagini being the python from PS

:welcome: jennymac!

Nagini as the boa Harry accidentally set free-it has a lot of implications for book 7.

I really don't have time to respond properly, out the door to work (yick), but I just wanted to wish you welcome.

Is Nagini a boa? I always pictured her as a snake with a hood.. kind of like a viper or something..

It has not been specified what kind of snake Nagini actucally is. If she is indeed the boa/python or whatever it was that Harry set free, well there you go. If not, I like the idea of her being a viper. Very Voldemort.

i personally think snape is going to use him as an anonymous communication to help harry... maybe. lol i think snape is good and that harry isn't capable of understanding this at the moment. so if snape is to help harry in any way, also without giving up his position as a death eater, he would need a way to communicate. and who better than fawkes? harry would certainly trust anything that came from fawkes. and if harry finds out that fawkes is loyal to snape, this is a good way to understand that snape was never a traitor.

:tu: I like this idea. We have seen Fawkes conver messages before so why not again?

Is Nagini a boa? I always pictured her as a snake with a hood.. kind of like a viper or something..


She can't be a Boa, as they're not poisonous. Unless it's different for a magical Boa.

Messenger Fawkes certainly has potential. I've seen some theories about Snape using a go-between to rather anonymously help Harry in book 7, and Fawkes could certainly be that middle man, so to speak.

I rather like the idea of Fawkes as a messenger as it would eliminate the middle-man if we go with the idea that Snape will pass info to Aberforth who will then pass it to the Order. This would make it more direct. Now, will Harry recongize the handwriting? :p

I rather like the idea of Fawkes as a messenger as it would eliminate the middle-man if we go with the idea that Snape will pass info to Aberforth who will then pass it to the Order. This would make it more direct. Now, will Harry recongize the handwriting? :p
Yeah, he probably would and try and chuck it out into the fire, but Hermione would probably stop him from doing so.

I am having touble deciding the best way for Harry to get past this. It might have to be like the HBP textbook - Fawkes bringing anonymous instructions that helps Harry on with this tasks? Then a big reveal later in the book that is was Snape writing them all along? Or someone (Hermione, Fawkes, ??)forcing Harry to accept help from the hated Snape. I guess I'm leaning towards the first idea.

I am having touble deciding the best way for Harry to get past this. It might have to be like the HBP textbook - Fawkes bringing anonymous instructions that helps Harry on with this tasks? Then a big reveal later in the book that is was Snape writing them all along? Or someone (Hermione, Fawkes, ??)forcing Harry to accept help from the hated Snape. I guess I'm leaning towards the first idea.Wow, both of these ideas are good OddmentTweak! I wonder which one [if this happens] will happen in book 7?

Harry did say that he trusted the HBP like a friend, he should remember that. He had complete trust in the HBP before he found out it was Snape just as he had trusted Tom Marvolo Riddle's memory of the opening of the Chamber of Secrets before it was revealed to him who TMR was. So, if Harry was to recieve messages from Fawkes, I think he would trust them.

A somewhat random thought here, but if they have quick quills and transfigurations, why can't Snape simply wave his wand over his post before Fawkes takes it and transform it into a Muggle typed note, or some sort of non-descript "font"?

A somewhat random thought here, but if they have quick quills and transfigurations, why can't Snape simply wave his wand over his post before Fawkes takes it and transform it into a Muggle typed note, or some sort of non-descript "font"?
Good idea, He probably could do that...

cruplover, now there's an idea!

Thanks, Fawkesfan1. Its fun to think of something and then have someone else build on it.

So we could have Harry receiving mysterious, anonomous, typed notes from Fawkes which lead him in his search and destroy mission, and enable him to succeed. But they would actually be from Snape, who is giving Harry the benefit of his spying.

Sounds like a fun story line to me. :D

Fawkes may have gone because everyone in the hospital ward was questioning Dumbledore's trust in Snape. If Fawkes knows why Dumbledore trusted Snape (and I suspect this is true), surely Fawkes felt their doubt. He may have gone to mourn, as well. If Snape did not go directly to Voldemort when he fled Hogwarts (if he is in hiding), Fawkes may be with him.

I love your point here (sorry I am some page back), but this also makes possible that Fawkes will come to Harry's aid ONLY when Harry will trust Dumbledore's words, hence when Harry will trust Snape, not before. Scary thought.

cruplover, now there's an idea!

Thanks aislin. And then, at some point, it still has to come to Harry's attention that yet again, Snape has been helping him, and we're still stuck trying to get Harry to accept it! :grumble:

:welcome: magali!

Now, if Harry has not yet accepted Snape, will Fawkes just deliever the message and be off? Will this tip Harry off that something is not right if Fawkes is not haning around?

Now, if Harry has not yet accepted Snape, will Fawkes just deliever the message and be off? Will this tip Harry off that something is not right if Fawkes is not haning around?

I would definately think so. But I'm not sure Harry will find out. After all, Fawkes can't speak to him..

I would definately think so. But I'm not sure Harry will find out. After all, Fawkes can't speak to him..

I am sure he can bite. Angry Fawkes !!

Thanks for the welcome Aislin.
The problem with this is also that Harry wouldn't see Fawkes brooding, but would understand him as missing Dumbledore possibly. So I still believe that Fawkes will help him in the journey, but it's down for Harry to make a choice by himself. Fawkes messenger is fun, I think he will be just that as long as Harry hasn't made his choice, hasn't gathered all his information on Snape. He will stay and help Harry once his choice (the right one) is settled.

I think Harry will eventually have to trust Snape, but I'm not sure how long it will take until he realizes he has to do that. After all, Harry is quite stubborn.

So I still believe that Fawkes will help him in the journey, but it's down for Harry to make a choice by himself. Fawkes messenger is fun, I think he will be just that as long as Harry hasn't made his choice, hasn't gathered all his information on Snape. He will stay and help Harry once his choice (the right one) is settled.

:tu: Once again, the role of choices comes into play. I rather like the idea of Fawkes just being the messenger until Harry makes the choice to trust Snape and then Fawkes returns to fully aid Harry.

After all, Harry is quite stubborn.

:lol: Harry's as stubborn as mule-no one can deny that! Then again, so is Snape. The 2 of them need to put aside their differences and work together.

Once again, the role of choices comes into play. I rather like the idea of Fawkes just being the messenger until Harry makes the choice to trust Snape and then Fawkes returns to fully aid Harry.

Bravo! I love it. The ultimate expression of choices by Fawkes. Fawkes won't be able to fully aid Harry until Harry is able to trust Snape!

Bravo! I love it. The ultimate expression of choices by Fawkes. Fawkes won't be able to fully aid Harry until Harry is able to trust Snape!
Yep, it should be interesting to see if Harry and him get over their animosity toward each other in order to defeat Voldy... :p ;)!

They don't have to be best friends-and I doubt they ever will- but they need to work together. It's what Dumbledore really wanted. Dumbledore could have taught Harry Occulemency but he had Snape do it. Leaving Voldemort out of it for the moment, I think that Dumbledore having Snape attempt to teach Harry Occulemency for other reasons; ie trying to get them on the same page.

I noted a few times that Snape was actually being nice to Harry during these Occlumency lessons. Yes, he did yell and put Harry down most of the time, but there were a few excepts.