Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus: Acts III - Epilogue

Discussion for Spinner's End #19 - The Psyche of Severus (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se19.shtml) by Lady Lupin.

This discussion thread is specifically for the following sections of the multi-part editorial:

Act III: Humble School Master (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se19d.shtml)
Act IV: The Half-Blood DADA Professor (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se19e.shtml)
Act V: Snivellus on the Run (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se19f.shtml)
Epilogue: Spinner Spun (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/spinnersend/se19g.shtml)

I think it's likely that we haven't seen the last of the Unbreakable Vow - Jo wouldn't introduce something like that without using it at least once more (as has been the case with numerous other magical means) and I think it would account for Snape's actions during Book 6 (as well as his general attitude over all 6 books) fairly well, unlike some other theories which give Snape a bit too much credit for my taste (I still don't think he's completely trustworthy, myself). It also fits with the speculation that Snape will eventually sacrifice himself for Harry's triumph, as his Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa may come into conflict with protecting Harry (he may have to kill Draco, for example).
Brilliant!

Interesting read. But in the last parts about Snape's possible actions after Dumbledore's death there is one presupposition which is probably false. "Act V" and "Epilogue" labour under the assumption that Snape's Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa obliges him to protect Draco even after the murder of Dumbledore. I think this is not the case. Read the first part of the UV:

"Will you, Severus, watch over my son Draco as he attempts to fulfil the Dark Lord's wishes?"

"as he attempts to fulfil the Dark Lord's wishes": Even if it reads "wishes" in the plural, this seems to relate just to the present situation. That is corroborated by the third part of the vow which mentions "the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform". The deed.

For sure, the words of the UV can be taken to mean a lifelong obligation, but the context suggests rather a more limited one. This clearly seems to be Narcissa's intention - and intention matters in magic, more than words.

As we move along more into this "story" I have to say it seems to be off base. It seemed at first plausible that Snape could have been protecting Harry, but if we look at Harry's second year, he wants Harry expelled. (the flying car incident; then Professor McG says, "well there will be no need for that seeing as they're in my house.") It would be hard to keep an eye on someone if you expell them from the place you are.

In the Fourth Book, Snape doesn't try to help Potter through any of the tasks, he even scolds Harry and threatens Him after the GillyWeed. I do know harry was thought to be making Polyjuice Potion also. But Snape seemed just as angry about Harry taking the GillyWeed. If I were Snape, and my life were depending on this boy, I would do as Fake Moody and try to help him as MUCH as I could. Remember, if Harry dies, Snape dies in the sceneario set up.

Also, Potter seemed well on the out in out in book five, we find him in the most trouble here. He is on his way to explusion and no one tries to stop him except the friends of potter and Professor McG. They are the only ones who repeatidly remind himwho Umbridge is and where she's from. They clearly tell him over and over to keep his nose clean. Snape, however, does nothing of the sort. That and he does teach him occulemens but fails to keep is temper for the boy. I think if my life were depending on this boy, much as I "hated" (which is a very strong word I may add) him, I would try and keep him as close as possible. after all, they say keep you friends close and your enemies closer. In which case, snape should have kept potter much closer rather than make Harry despise him so much.

So after reading the finished product, I don't think it's so plausible that Snape made an unbreakable Vow to Lily Potter... Too much doesn't add up...

But I was re-reading the fifth book, and I had a question about something:
If you look at Jk's style of writing, she emphasizes some words, italisizes (sp?) them. For example, when Sirius goes with to train station, Malfoy mentions how he'll be "Dogging" Potter. Draco knows about Sirius. When the trio inquire about Hagrid's dissapearence, Malfoy says maybe he's into something "TOO BIG". The Giants... These are all forshadowments of what's to come.
Anyhoo, I noticed that after Harry has the snake vision, Tonks inquires about the vision on the way to St. Mungo's. She asks Harry is he has any Seer Blood. He says no, but Seer is emphsized the same way... Could this foreshadowment of Harry's future? I mean they always say a connection between Hp and Lily's eyes... Or do you think it's its just foreshadowment that what he sees (Sirius at the Ministry) is false?

Sorry, I've written a book myself.

And to ibnalsaigh, I think when she says the dark Lord's wishes, she means whatever Voldemort tells Draco to do. If Draco succeeded where he was bound to fail, Which in a manner of speaking he did (although did not kill dumbledore himself) Voldemort surely has more for Draco to do. And if I were in on this vow, I wouldn't want to test how long I made it for, I would watch my own behind and protect him as long as he's under Voldemorts rule.

Another Objection: Well, this is an objection against every scenario that implies Dumbledore preferred to die rather than Snape because of Snape's alleged importance for the Order's cause.

You play up very well both the importance and the difficulty of finding and destroying the Horcruxes. Now, Dumbledore is the only person who can help Harry with that and thus protect him from the potentially lethal effects before he faces Voldemort - you said that too. I can not imagine any possible use of Snape which would equal that.

Let alone the fact that it would be quite cruel and unworthy of Dumbledore to practically force somebody to kill. The means do not justify the ends. That is why Dumbledore made every effort to protect Draco, to protect someone who tried to kill him and did not care for "collateral damage". Just assume that Snape actually is on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore considered him of primal importance. Would it not have been much easier and much better to just let Draco fail? Dumbledore and Snape would still be alive both of them. Dumbledore did not do that.
To kill your comrade in arms (if Snape and Dumbledore ever were that) for the not even certain possibility to contribute in the end to the downfall of your enemy is way too cynical to be an option that Dumbledore would favor. Sometimes you have to accept a possible failure even in your war against evil forces if you do not want to lower yourself to the level of those enemies.

Inzucke--Snape heard at least the first part of the Prophecy. He knows that Voldemort believes that Harry is the child referred to there; obviously Dumbledore does as well. He knows he can yell all he wants about expelling Harry from Hogwarts and it'll never happen.

Snape's character is what it is; he's by nature bitter and resentful, one who wallows in his emotions. He has very little control over them. (Neither does Harry, which is why he doesn't practice Occlumency and why the lessons fail.) You're right that it would be easier for Snape to protect Harry if he didn't antagonize him so much. But Snape isn't one to make things easy for anyone--certainly not himself; as a double agent he's always a half-step from doom.

I agree that "the Dark Lord's wishes" isn't necessarily limited as to time. If I'd taken a Vow with such a broad statement in it, for my own safety I'd follow the broadest interpretation. Just to be sure.

Ibnalsaigh, I thought Lady Lupin did a good job of pointing out how Dumbledore's varous agendas came to a head on the Astronomy Tower. She doesn't think that there was a plan between D and S to kill him but that at that point it seemed the only way. I think her point about the necessity of dealing with the Dark Mark and its implications preventing Dumbledore from getting to Snape (who could have cured him of the effects of the Potion he drank in the cave) is a good one. As I read that scene, it seemed clear to me that he was dying on the Tower. We know for sure Snape has a UV with Narcissa, so Dumbledore's death puts both Draco and Snape at risk and, no matter what Snape does, the Headmaster is dying; even if he tried to heal him on the Tower, the DEs there would never allow it. Remember that one of Dumbledore's agenda items has been unifying the Houses and that Draco, for all his bullying meanness, has not yet committed murder (although he has attempted it). Dumbledore was right in his belief that Draco couldn't kill him; he can be "saved." It's possible that he, if he survives, can rally Slytherin to the Order; he obviously has not found service to Voldemort easy and can't help but notice the difference in the way the Dark Lord (who has always had his family's allegiance) and Dumbledore (who knows Draco has tried to kill him) have treated him. It's a long shot . . . but Dumbledore's dying anyway. Taking Snape, the Malfoys, and possibly Harry with him serves no good end.

Let alone the fact that it would be quite cruel and unworthy of Dumbledore to practically force somebody to kill. The means do not justify the ends. That is why Dumbledore made every effort to protect Draco, to protect someone who tried to kill him and did not care for "collateral damage". Just assume that Snape actually is on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore considered him of primal importance. Would it not have been much easier and much better to just let Draco fail? Dumbledore and Snape would still be alive both of them. Dumbledore did not do that.

First I'll look at the last thing you said in the section I quoted from you, ibnalsaigh. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that both Dumbledore and Snape could still be alive if Draco didn't kill Dumbledore and Snape didn't do it either. Can anyone explain what ibnalsaigh means?

Secondly I'll look at the first thing I quoted. I like the idea that Dumbledore wouldn't force anyone to kill. But by not forcing Snape to kill him, Dumbledore would have himself been killing Snape! I think that there is a big difference between killing someone who is begging you to kill them (especially when you know they're not suicidal), and truly murdering someone. Not that Dumbledore was necessarily "begging", just that Dumbledore wanted that more than any other outcome at that moment, and in some way or another, Snape knew that.
~~~

Also - I really loved this editorial because it suggests that Snape is out for himself the entire time, but for all intents and purposes, he's more good than evil, and not only must he protect Harry, but if he was able to choose, he'd probably choose to protect The Chosen One over Lord Voldemort! Because it combines the two ideas I've been stuggling to decide on - is Snape just somehow selfish, or is he really a good guy? I never thought he was evil, not when he killed Dumbledore, not ever.

Another Objection: Well, this is an objection against every scenario that implies Dumbledore preferred to die rather than Snape because of Snape's alleged importance for the Order's cause.

You play up very well both the importance and the difficulty of finding and destroying the Horcruxes. Now, Dumbledore is the only person who can help Harry with that and thus protect him from the potentially lethal effects before he faces Voldemort - you said that too. I can not imagine any possible use of Snape which would equal that.

Let alone the fact that it would be quite cruel and unworthy of Dumbledore to practically force somebody to kill. The means do not justify the ends. That is why Dumbledore made every effort to protect Draco, to protect someone who tried to kill him and did not care for "collateral damage". Just assume that Snape actually is on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore considered him of primal importance. Would it not have been much easier and much better to just let Draco fail? Dumbledore and Snape would still be alive both of them. Dumbledore did not do that.
To kill your comrade in arms (if Snape and Dumbledore ever were that) for the not even certain possibility to contribute in the end to the downfall of your enemy is way too cynical to be an option that Dumbledore would favor. Sometimes you have to accept a possible failure even in your war against evil forces if you do not want to lower yourself to the level of those enemies.I agree with you. How in the world could anything have been made better by a spoken or unspoken plan between Dumbledore and Snape. If anything Dumbledore's death makes things much more complicated for everybody who might have been protected by an unbreakable vow. If Voldemort expected Draco to be killed in his attempt to kill Dumbledore, he will be angry that he is still alive, and possibly angrier that Snape killed Dumbledore when he couldn't accomplish it. So it spares Snape and Draco for a bit of time, but if Voldemort is angry at them both, what is to stop him from killing them now? Even if he doesn't decide to kill them, will he trust Snape anymore? Doubtful. He would more likely regard Snape as a threat which again defeats the purpose of Dumbledore's death being for the greater good. I cant see Dumbledore not forseeing any of this, he knows Voldemort well. As paranoid as Voldemort is, I cant see him still trusting Snape, after all he tried to kill a baby he thought to be a threat to him. So in what way is Snape's life now more valuable then Dumbledore's? In what way is Harry's path to the Horcruxes going to be less difficult? I fail to see it.


Not to mention I have issue with the unbreakable vow to protect Harry. I agree with the poster that thinks Snape gets too much credit. It's interesting(and I have mentioned it before), that Snape leaves before the rest of the Death Eaters on the tower, if he knew Harry was there-which I tend to agree with-then why did he leave someone he was supposedly protecting, in such a vulnerable situation? How could he assume that Harry would be safe, knowing that a battle was going on downstairs? Yes, he stopped the Cruciatus curse from being performed on Harry, but where was he when that werewolf came flying at Harry, or how about that Avada that just missed Harry? Seems to me his primary concern was to protect Draco and Draco only, and only when Snape saw Harry being attacked did he act, but not out of protecting Harry, out of reminding the others that their orders were to leave Harry and to get out of Hogwarts before the ministry made it there.

Explanation for luvtheheaven:

I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that both Dumbledore and Snape could still be alive if Draco didn't kill Dumbledore and Snape didn't do it either.

They could still be alive on the assumption that Snape did not have an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. I know that this is not the case, but I was trying to look at the question from Dumbledore's point of view, because I was questioning the probability of Dumbledore acting like Lady Lupin believes him to have done. I do not think that Dumbledore knew about the vow, so it should not have influenced him in determining what course of action to take.

Even if Dumbledore knew of the vow or had a strong suspicion, I think he would not have assented to Snape killing him, if he had had a choice up there on the Astronomy Tower. It would have been much more humane to let Snape die from a breach of the vow (he had committed himself to without necessity) or at the hand of Voldemort (whose follower he became by his own faulty choice) than to make him kill an innocent. Snape's death would have been the result of his own past actions, whereas the murder of Dumbledore is a further evil that Snape has inflicted not only on Dumbledore but on his own soul. To induce somebody to do such evil, to make somebody do something from which his conscience will ache for evermore is certainly worse than to kill him in defending one's own life.

inzuke, very interesting about the italics. You may be onto something. Although I am not one hundred percent certain that Malfoy was talking about Sirius. I believe it more likely that dogging was a reference to Fenrir Greyback or werewolves in general as "too big" was a refernce to the giants. After all Sirius is only of minor concern to Voldemort at this junction, a tool if you will. The werewolves, as the giants, are a weapon of consequence and Malfoy would just love to rub Harry's nose in the fact that he thinks he is in Voldemort's close confidence. As for seer, there was an editorial that claimed that Petunia was a seer. JKR has always been adamant that Petuniawas not a squib, well of course not, she was born of muggle parents. A squib is a non-magical person born of magical parents. Jkr was also adamant that Petunia couldn't do magic. What if there was seer blood somewhere in the Evans family? The full brunt of the magic landed with Lily but what if Petunia was a sensitive, or medium. Not magical enough to make prophecy's and the like but enough to get occasional bursts of otherworldness?

To move onward I do not believe that Dumbledore would ever put someone under a UV. Nor do I believe Lily would either. Nor would anyone in the order that we have met. Maybe Umbridge would but she is not in the order but she is not out for the death eaters either. My position is that Dumbledore was taking advantage of the UV that Voldemort would/may have put on Snape. (For the life of me I don't know why he didn't UV every DE the moment they entered his service but that is another debate) I believe it likely that Snape does know about the Horcruxes (although maybe not the exact numbers) and perhaps helped Voldemort place protections on them (see the editorial about the drink being the draught of living death) Being under a UV Snape cannot tell Dumbledore where or how to destroy the Horcruxes but he is certainly in a position (in fact the only one) that can cure Dumbledore since he will know exactly what the protections are. Hence why Dumbledore insists on Snape after drinking the lake water. A UV is way over the top for Dumbledore but he has shown no aversion to veritaserum. It would be a simple matter to question Snape under a veritaserum to see if his pledge to the order is sincere. He would not be able to tell the order about this for many of the order might take it into there heads to dope Snape, make him spill the truth about the Horcruxes, and, not so incidently kill off a former death eater to boot.

I really liked these last two acts better than the earlier ones. I also believe that Dumbledore did not know about the unbreakable vow between Snape and Narcissa. I also do not believe that Dumbledore wanted or asked Snape to kill him. I agree with what you have written for when Snape gets to the Tower. I think he had to size up the situation really fast, realized he was backed into a corner, did not want to kill Dumbledore, but realized he had to. He is a Syltherin after all, and did not want to die. And I think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to protect Harry and maybe continue to be a spy. I don't believe that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him.

The idea of Snape taking an unbreakable vow to protect Harry is not a popular one. But I think it explains a lot about Snape and why he continues to protect Harry, even though he hates him. He may not have taken it with Dumbledore, but it seems he did take it with someone.

I thought that this was very well written and nicely thought out. I always enjoy your editorials L.L.

Some one posted earlier that Dumbledore would not force someone to kill, well I would think of it more as Dumbledore forcing someone to live.
Part of the UV with Narcissa says that is Draco fails at his mission Snape is to complete it for him. If he did not Kill Dumbledore he would have died then right? I do not think that Dumbledore would let this happen. I know that he knew he was important to the downfall of the DL but he would never let someone he cared about die.

ibnalsaigh, Susan Bones, why don't you believe Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow between Snape and Narcissa? When Harry tries to tell him about it he cuts him off.

ibnalsaigh, Susan Bones, why don't you believe Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow between Snape and Narcissa? When Harry tries to tell him about it he cuts him off.
The biggest evidence to me is the conversation between Draco and Dumbledore on the Tower. Draco tells Dumbledore that Snape took an unbreakable vow with his mother, and Dumbledore says something like, "well, that is what he wanted you to believe". Then Draco says something about Snape being a spy and fooling Dumbledore.

And I just can't believe that it would sit well with Dumbledore to know that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him.

RE: Hulagirl - I'm not sure what Aunt Petunia being a Seer would add to the overall plot of the books...though there is supposedly "more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye [heh, "eye", interesting]" I highly doubt it's anything like that - little or no canon evidence to support it, for one thing.
Also, JKR said (when asked why Veritaserum isn't asked to question criminals on trial) that it's possible to develop defenses against Veritaserum, especially (I would imagine) in the case of such a gifted Occlumens as Snape. Plus, there are apparently antidotes to Veritaserum as well - in HBP Harry suggests using it on Slughorn to get the memory and I'm pretty sure Dumbledore mentions something about Slughorn carrying around an antidote. Anyway, I'm sure Snape, as the Potions Master and no doubt slightly-unhinged-by-now double agent has probably carried an antidote around with him in case of any Umbridge-esque, less-than-subtle attempts to find where his loyalties lie.
Anyway, I've drifted a bit, sorry... :p I think Dumbledore did know about Snape's Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa - could Harry really let Dumbledore cut him off before he'd told him that? He'd've probably vented a paragraph or two at how nobody listens to his Snape/Malfoy suspicions...And even if Snape's Unbreakable Vow didn't sit well with Dumbledore - as he says to Draco on the Astronomy Tower, he couldn't do anything to show he knew about it since Draco would then be killed by Voldemort. (My rule of thumb with Dumbledore, and Snape too - never assume that they've shown all their cards. Dumbledore was just trying to placate Draco on the Tower, not really bothered with trying to convince him of Snape's loyalty, hence the somewhat weak defense.) So anyway, Dumbledore had to make do with what he had - and since there was no way out for him on top of the Tower anyway...well, y'all know the rest.

Thank you so much for a filled in blanks account of events from the POV of Snape. Only since I have started reading fanfics about the most important character in the books behind Harry, have I come to understand that this character has a psyche (as you put it) and that we need to stop looking at what Harry's POV says and read for ourselves.


I read this and was nearly brought to tears :

"Snape fires off the Avada Kedavra. The force of it, filled with years of anger, resentment and strain, lifts the fragile Headmaster right off his feet."


You write so well and it reminded me of thoughts and emotions evoked when I was actually reading the books. Great stuff - your way is how I have interpreted the texts thusfar and while many think that rose-tinted glasses are involved - I don't care.

I don't think the reason that snape protects Harry is because he performed an unbreakable vow with Lily. He protects Harry because he owes James a lifedebt that he did not repay. In fact he is the reason that the Potters are dead. Now he owes Harry. It will be very interesting how book 7 plays out. I would like to see Snape help Harry with the Horcuxes.

I must congratulate LadyLupin for her analysis of the events at the Astronomy Tower. The explanation fits very well and explains most things without having to place unrealistic feelings or actions on any character.

However, I disagree that Snape had an Unbreakable Vow previously with Dumbledore or Lily. It seems to be too Dark a piece of magic for them. I think the Blood Debt combined with remorse over Lily's death are the real reasons Snape followed Dumbledore. (I think Snape's Worst Memory is just that because that is when he lost everything with Lily, and James won in the end.) I think Dumbledore was able to recognize true remorse and trusted Snape as such. This plays into the 'redemptive pattern to Snape' quote that shocked JKR so much.

This implies that Snape's big moment in Book 7 will be showing Harry his remorse over his parent's death, and convincing Harry to trust him again because of that.

There are a number of flaws and inconsistancies in the arguments presented in this editorial. The most obvious is that Snape probably knew all along that Wormtail was a death eater. It does seem likely that Snape and Wormtail were the only two deatheaters taken to Godric's Hollow. Even if Snape didn't know Wormtail was there he should have realised it whe he saw the outline of the figure accompanying them. Following on from this Snape should have known Sirius was innocent. If he did then he (Snape) is guilty of complicity in Sirius' murder at the ministry.

Clearly, your editorial is aimed at Snape being on Dumbledore's side at least in part but the evidence still indicates that this is merely a front. I doubt very strongly that Snape made an umbreakable vow with Lily or Dumbledore but, if he did, then it could not have involved Harry in any way. Any vow involving Harry would surely have been broken the minute Voldemort entered the Potter's house since he went there specifically to kill Harry.

After carefully considering the arguments presented in this editorial I am forced to conclude that they are probably wrong and amount to only speculation with little basis in fact. Snape is certainly a mysterious character but it appears to me that his sole concern is for himself and how he is going to keep himself safe - the classic Slytherin trait of self-preservation above all else.


Anyhoo, I noticed that after Harry has the snake vision, Tonks inquires about the vision on the way to St. Mungo's. She asks Harry is he has any Seer Blood. He says no, but Seer is emphsized the same way... Could this foreshadowment of Harry's future? I mean they always say a connection between Hp and Lily's eyes... Or do you think it's its just foreshadowment that what he sees (Sirius at the Ministry) is false? [/COLOR]



For quite some time now I have held the opinion that Harry is a Natural Seer who has correctly seen many events which there was no normal way for him to be aware of. Even though many of these are related to his connection to Voldemort I beleive that some could not have been through this connection.

As far as the Veritaserum goes: I'll admit to the fact that there is an antidote and that Snape could certainly brew it up. But then you would think Barty Crouch Jr would know the same? So let's negate the serum (which I admit is conjecture) and work with a UV from Voldy. Although Snape is prevented from telling where, how to access, and how to destroy a Horcrux the facts that he is saving Dumbledore from the aftereffects (namely death) of destroying one and not letting Voldemort know that Dumbledore is on to the little secret is a big booster in the trust department in my book. Before Dumbledore death the horcruxes existence were not known to anyone except Dumbledore (and Snape) and eventually Harry. To let knowledge of the existence out to more than a few people would be treacherous and jeopardize Snapes double agency and possibly his life. Canon states that Dumbledore said the Snape regretted his decision to tell Voldy the prophecy and Dumbledore believed him. Some people are pointing to Lily being the only reason but it could be any number of other reasons. Perhaps that was the first time that his actions as a Death Eater had direct consequence in the loss of life and he, like Regulus, wanted out. I mean after all there were/are CHILDREN (namely Neville and Harry) involved. Perhaps he regretted having betrayed Dumbledore the only man who ever gave a darn? Or perhaps he did weave a tale of love for Lily as surmised. And Dumbledore believed him because Dumbledore believes in love. Could that have been Dumbledore rather large mistake being as he is rather more cleverer than most wizards? Anyway I am hijacking LL editorial. It did make me think and she did a great job putting it together.

Post #14:
The biggest evidence to me is the conversation between Draco and Dumbledore on the Tower. Draco tells Dumbledore that Snape took an unbreakable vow with his mother, and Dumbledore says something like, "well, that is what he wanted you to believe". Then Draco says something about Snape being a spy and fooling Dumbledore.

And I just can't believe that it would sit well with Dumbledore to know that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him.

My American Hardcover Edition of HBP, pg. 588:
"Why didn't you stop me, then?" Malfoy demanded.
"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders -"
"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother -"
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but -"
"He's a double agent, you stupid old man, he isn't working for you, you just think he is!"
"We must agree to differ on that, Draco. It so happens that I trust Professor Snape -".

So Susan Bones, Draco only says "promised", and doesn't even mention the UV to Dumbledore, but that's not to say Dumbledore doesn't know. What Dumbledore is saying to Draco is that Snape would want him to think he was watching Draco only because of his mother, but Dumbledore's saying it was at least his order to do so as well, in one way or another....

I agree with Inzucke that Snape's actions throughout the series contradict the second vow theory. While I do believe that because Snape is in debt to Lily, he will neither hurt Harry nor allow him to die under his watch, the books have made it pretty clear that Snape doesn't ever go too far out far out of his way to keep Harry safe/comfortable.

Although Snape and DD clearly did not plan DD's death down to the minute detail, DD's actions suggest that he knew of Snape's vow and I personally think that in the very least they came to an uneasy understanding that if Draco failed then Snape would complete Draco's task. Some have argued that DD would never force someone to kill, but if DD's death was indeed planned, then we're not talking about a murder anymore, we're talking about a suicide.

Although Snape is prevented from telling where, how to access, and how to destroy a Horcrux the facts that he is saving Dumbledore from the aftereffects (namely death) of destroying one and not letting Voldemort know that Dumbledore is on to the little secret is a big booster in the trust department in my book.

Canon states that Dumbledore said the Snape regretted his decision to tell Voldy the prophecy and Dumbledore believed him. Some people are pointing to Lily being the only reason but it could be any number of other reasons. Perhaps that was the first time that his actions as a Death Eater had direct consequence in the loss of life and he, like Regulus, wanted out. I mean after all there were/are CHILDREN (namely Neville and Harry) involved. Perhaps he regretted having betrayed Dumbledore the only man who ever gave a darn? Or perhaps he did weave a tale of love for Lily as surmised. And Dumbledore believed him because Dumbledore believes in love.

The first thing I highlighted in pink is the fact that Snape isn't telling Voldemort that Dumbledore knows about his Horcruxes. Now it is still possible that Snape actually doesn't know about them, but it's also entirely possible and even plausable (given his knowledge of Dark Magic and his saving Dumbledore from the ring) that he does. This action would support that Snape, if he was picking a side, was acting on and for the good side, which doesn't necessarily make Snape an entirely good person, but makes him trustworthy (as Dumbledore always insisted he was).

I also liked that second section I quoted because it makes the very good point that Snape may not have loved Lily. But I higlighted the Dumbledore believing in love part in pink. Because Dumbledore doesn't just believe in love. He believes that there is a possibility for good in everyone, that people can change, that people deserve second chances, and that people make mistakes. Any or all of these things, plus the love concept, could account for Dumbledore's trust.

Regarding Act III: A very believeable narrative for the most part. However, I dont believe that Dumbledore in any way forced Snape to resume his job as double spy when Voldemort returned. Dumbledore knew that there was a very good chance that Voldemort would kill Snape. I cant believe that you think that Dumbledore would hold the threat of Azkaban over Snape's head and "order" Snape to take that kind of risk. Isnt Dumbledore a better person than that? I have often advocated that there were two unbreakable vows, and that Snape was bound to protect Harry. Having Lily ask Snape to take the vow is a new twist, but certainly plausible. But I think that Dumbledore might not approve of unbreakable vows, which kind of puts a damper on one of my favorite theories.

These editorials are absolutely brilliant and definitely bring up points that I have never even considered before. I do like the idea of there being two Unbreakable Vows and the concept of Lily and Snape having some sort of an agreement does have a definite appeal. I was always under the assumption that Dumbledore's death was planned, though, although I must admit that my mind has been changed a little bit. It seems much more likely, now that I think back upon HBP, that Snape wasn't fully aware of what was going on, explaining why everything he did seemed very impromptu and not very well thought-out. I had never even considered that the fact that Snape stunned Flitwick was out of Draco's safety. It certainly makes a lot of sense. The fact that Hermione, Luna, and Flitwick were all out of the way meant that Snape had three very able wizards out of the way.

Ibnalsaigh: To kill your comrade in arms (if Snape and Dumbledore ever were that) for the not even certain possibility to contribute in the end to the downfall of your enemy is way too cynical to be an option that Dumbledore would favor

As Dumbledore always said; “there are worse things than death.” I like it better phrased from Hook, “to die would be a terribly great adventure” and Dumbledore knew that. Looking at this logically, Dumbledore was never afraid of dying, and he's said this from the start. He's also been telling harry that from book 1; "There are worse things than death."

My question to this is has/would Dumbledore "use" these things worse than death, or is he simply talking about situations such as Frank and Alice Longbottom?

Hulagirl: Although I am not one hundred percent certain that Malfoy was talking about Sirius.
If you read later on when Snape tells Harry that he is to study occulemncy, Snape eggs on Sirius by saying he was seen and recognized by Lucius Malfoy( although snape implies it was intentional because he did not want to be in danger and just stay at home… )
I also would like to commend you on you thoughts of Dumbledore trusting snape. While an unbreakable Vow is an idea, I have to say, Dumbledore has a little more class. After all, he seems to be able to read a mind. What I mean, he can tell what kind of person you by you first meeting, which isn't easy, especially, (i assume) in the wizarding world. (well, I usually change my mind by the third meeting) I don’t think he’d need a vow to trust snape.

SusanBones111: And I just can't believe that it would sit well with Dumbledore to know that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him
Snape did not take an UV to kill Dumbledore… Snape took a vow to protect Draco through thick and thin.

Hendu: don't think the reason that snape protects Harry is because he performed an unbreakable vow with Lily. He protects Harry because he owes James a lifedebt that he did not repay. In fact he is the reason that the Potters are dead. Now he owes Harry. It will be very interesting how book 7 plays out. I would like to see Snape help Harry with the Horcuxes.

I like that a lot. Jk even said something about lifedebt. It’s something you need to repay—Wormtail for example. (which everyone seems to have forgotten about…)

I really enjoyed this editorial.

Some respondants have said/implied that Dumbledore would not have wanted Snape to kill him in order to prevent Draco from doing it, however (as LL stated) Dumbledore was already seiously injured or dying and if Snape had NOT killed Dumbledore then one of the other Death Eaters would have done it, Snape would have died, and Draco would have been in danger. Canon has shown us repeatedly that Dumbledore puts the students above all else. I must agree then that if it came down to it, Dumbledore would have wanted Snape to do whatever would protect the students the most, even end his life.

HOWEVER - I still believe that Snape is only truely loyal to himself.

For all of you who think of this as a "story":

This is the way many mental health professionals utilize a tool know as "profiling" and, although it is full of conjecture and is sometimes off target, it is very helpful in assessing a patient's or criminal's (for those who work with law enforcement) "psyche".

SusanBones111:
Snape did not take an UV to kill Dumbledore… Snape took a vow to protect Draco through thick and thin. I don't have the book with me, but the final part of the vow had Snape promise to complete the task if Draco failed. Now, if I remembered this incorrectly, I'm sorry, but I thought Snape promised to kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't do it.

I'm not convinced about Snape making an Unbreakable Vow to protect harry, follow Dumbledore's orders or anything of that sort. As of HBP we have evidence of only the vow to Narcissa to protect Draco and that included a vow to kill Dumbledore if necessary. I think that a smart guy like Snape would be capable of learning. If Snape had made a vow to protect Harry, and this vow had caused him a lot of angst, then wouldn't he learn from that experience? Wouldn't he be reluctant to make a second vow that might conflict with his first vow. Why should Snape make the vow to Narcissa if such a vow would create complications? Isn't being a spy complicated enough? Snape didn't have to make that vow to Narcissa, he could have weaseled out of it by saying "The Dark Lord gave the job of killing Dumbledore to Draco and the Dark Lord is always right."

Here's an alternative idea: Snape's evil. Snape is Voldemort's man because he's more afraid of the Dark Lord than he was of the old school master. Snape did not harm Harry or allow Harry to be harmed or captured because the Death Eaters are all afraid to make a move without Voldemort's permission.

Fantastic! I agreed with all of it! CHEERS!!:clap:

When I first read HBP I was convinced that Snape was evil, no question, but since that time I have read a lot of really good arguements on the contrary. I don't know what to think now, but I do have a really hard time believing that Dumbledore would have Snape take an unbreakable vow with Lily, it just doesn't seem like something that Dumbledore would be involved in. He believes in second chances, so why make Snape take a vow.

Look how simple this is,

Here's an alternative idea: Snape's evil. Snape is Voldemort's man because he's more afraid of the Dark Lord than he was of the old school master. Snape did not harm Harry or allow Harry to be harmed or captured because the Death Eaters are all afraid to make a move without Voldemort's permission.

it would just be so much simpler if this is the case. JKR only has one book left to tie up all of her loose ends, and there is quite a few. I'm interested to see where she will take us with Snape, personally I'm still leaning towards the idea that Snape is in it for Snape. He's on whichever side will keep him alive.

This mysterious love-induced protection will keep Harry safe for now. With Voldemort defeated, what Severus must do now is reestablish himself as a respectable member of society. His commitment to Harry will come later. Of course, Dumbledore already fears a Horcrux, perhaps more than one. He also fears that Voldemort is not gone for good, but he doesn't share this with Snape.

I do not think that Dumbledore suspected a Horcrux at this point in time. Dumbledore mentioned somewhere in HBP that it was after Harry described Tom Riddle's Diary and what it was doing to Ginny inside of the Chamber of Secrets that the notion of a Horcrux occured to him.

SusanBones, the UV with Narcissa never specifically says the task is to kill Dumbledore . . . just that Snape will complete the task if Draco can't. (By the way did Narcissa include that, when she believes that Voldemort intends Draco to fail so he can punish the Malfoys for it?). And on the Tower, Draco tells D that Snape isn't loyal to D but is fulfilling a promise to Narcissa; Dumbledore's response indicates that he does know what's going on: "Of course that's what he would tell you, Draco, but--" and then Draco interrupts him.

Bribe, there's no reason to think Snape knew Peter was the spy. If you'll notice, when Sirius tells Peter he's heard the DEs in Azkaban talk about how they hate him, in his reporting of what the DEs said he never uses a name. They could have been talking about Snape; it was, after all, originally on HIS information (the Prophecy) that V decided to kill a wizarding child. Given the secrecy Voldemort demands among the DEs that Karkaroff (during Vold War 1) and Narcissa (in Vold War 2) describe, I don't see him sharing information with Snape . . . especially since Snape was living at Hogwarts, vulnerable to Legilimency from Dumbledore. And I don't know that Snape was at Godric's Hollow. It doesn't seem likely to me. It seems that he would have to have shown his true loyalty there; if he acted to save the Potters, V would have killed him (either then or once he got his body back); if he acted against them, then I don't think Bella would be so suspicious of him in HBP.

And, again, Dumbledore was dying on the Tower anyway. If he can save the Malfoys and Snape, then his death isn't pure disaster. But at that point, whether Snape killed him or not, Dumbledore would die.

Wether you are convinced by the arguments made in this editorial or not, it's a darn good read. This is exactly the kind of theory I enjoy to read. Why? Because it offers a tangiable explanation to Snapes actions taken from what we can see in the books, thus far. It might not be fool proof all the way through. However it does intrigue me enough to actually consider the evidence it offers and stimulate my own thoughts on the subject. New arguments and information might well arise and show this theory well of target, but considering what we know at this point, in my opinion it's very plausable. I enjoyed it immensly. Good work!

SusanBones, the UV with Narcissa never specifically says the task is to kill Dumbledore . . . just that Snape will complete the task if Draco can't. (By the way did Narcissa include that, when she believes that Voldemort intends Draco to fail so he can punish the Malfoys for it?). And on the Tower, Draco tells D that Snape isn't loyal to D but is fulfilling a promise to Narcissa; Dumbledore's response indicates that he does know what's going on: "Of course that's what he would tell you, Draco, but--" and then Draco interrupts him. Maybe you can help me out here. If Narcissa never specifically said that the task is to kill Dumbledore, then why do people think that Dumbledore had to come to an agreement with Snape in which Snape was supposed to kill dumbledore to save Draco?

See, my whole point is that Dumbledore did not want to be murdered by Snape and never had any kind of agreement with Snape to allowed Snape to kill him - for any reason!

And people are also saying that Snape had to murder Dumbledore because he had taken the unbreakable vow. But, if the unbreakable vow never said that the task was to kill Dumbledore, then why does Snape do it?

As I understood the editiorial, Snape and Dumbledore never had an agreement where the one had to kill the other. This happened because of how fate delt the cards. It was the best solution at the time. Snape had to kill Dumbledore because it was the best way out of the situation for all concerned, given the circumstances. But as always this comes down to what side you believe Snape to be on. Is Snape bound to Dumbledore somehow? I believe so. or is he an agent of the dark lord? This is perfectly plausible, but in my opinion a bit of an easy way out. It's much more interesting the way Lady Lupin hypothesized it to be!

I agree with Chrielia; there wasn't a "kill me, Severus" plan, but when Draco's plan kept Albus from getting to Severus (what IS it with Jo and these Latinate names?) he was dying anyway.

SusanBones, I'm saying that the task (which was to kill Dumbledore) isn't specifically mentioned in the UV. Snape's hand twitched at that point; he had clearly figured it out by then (hadn't most of us?) but hadn't thought that would be part of the Vow. But at that point, it would be hard to back out; Bella's suspicions probably weren't completely lulled.

very interesting editorial.. Always The Snape Issue. I do think that it is difficult to really understand Snape's psyche because of limited information thus far on his parents. JK

has given us the outline of Tom (LV)'s childhood and the lack of parental contact. She has also given us Harry's wonderful childhood, but we have not yet been treated to Snapes relationship with his parents, except briefly.

JK stated that the seventh book is a continuation of HBP. I am looking forward to learning more about Severus. I personally think, very simply, that JK moved Snape to DADA and Slughorn to Potions to allow Harry his wish to become an Auror. I know, if you take a dark view of the current events, it is not important. But I still believe JK is writing a children's book series, that allows for some simplicity in its revelations. I also believe it was important for Harry to have Snapes potions book, wich he only could have come by with with Slughorn in the job.

I believe the potions book will be very important for a few reasons,. Hermonie stated that it looked like a women's handwriting. Snape's mother ??and will that seguay into some info on Snape's mother and her role. Hermonie said the book looked to be about 50 years old, about the time Snape's mom was at Hogwarts? She was known to be a wiz at potions also. 50 years ago Tom killed his grandparents and his father. I wonder if there is any connection between Snape's mom and Tom Marvolo.

Snape's history will be very interesting to watch unfold.

I have a question; since Snape hated Sirius so much for supposedly betraying Lily and James, why does he not hate Wormtail in the same manner, after learning that it was his fault. I would think that he would want to kill him, much less let Wormtail live with him.

I don't have the book with me, but the final part of the vow had Snape promise to complete the task if Draco failed. Now, if I remembered this incorrectly, I'm sorry, but I thought Snape promised to kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't do it.

You are halfway right. He says he will complete the task that which Voldemort has given to Draco in the case he fails. He doesn't know what the task is until after he takes the vow. I don't think he knows he will have to kill dumbledore... Nope. I really don't. Not until later when Dumbledore/Snape finds out just what it is that DRaco is doing.

I was really glad when Lady Lupin cleared up one of my biggest questions about Snape: why he tried to send Sirius to Azkaban at the end of PoA, even when (I think) he had a pretty good idea Sirius was innocent. I agree with Lady Lupin in that Snape blames Sirius for Lily's death, and therefore with the mayhem (on Snape's part) that followed. I think that this deepened his hatred for Sirius so much that he couldn't even consider the possibility that Sirius was good. Now the only doubt I have about Snape's loyalty is the Vance murder...

Another interesting editorial. I have nothing to say about it, only that it could be right in the same amount it could be wrong. Snape was and is always a very interesting character, and will see what will happen in the end.

Hi, how are you? I'm a 31 year old Pharmaceutical Technologist from Kenya and I enjoy reading your editorials. However, I think in this one, you have give Severus way too much credit for thinking ahead and self-esteem. also, way too much compassion.
Yes, perhaps Lily was nice to him in a very offhand way I suspect, but I don't think that they would have interacted in the way you are imagining. (think Draco Malfoy and Hermione Granger). which self-respecting Slytherin would take direct advice from a 'MUDBLOOD GRYFINDOR'? I'm thinking zero to none. whether or not they were attracted to her (Blaise Zabini and Ginny Weasley ; the whole "I wouldn't touch a such a blood traitor....) Now Blaise at least, was an arrogant Pure Blood with pretensions of grandeur; Snape was and is a Wannabe. He was not going to go so far out on a limb as to ever acknowledge even to himself that he could possibly be attracted to a Gryffindor of questionable parentage. and the fact that she treated him with pity and kindness would further inflame his anger, not give him a soft spot for her; how dare she presume to pity him?
Severus' biggest problem is that he never fit anywhere. The Death Eaters used him, but did not really accept him; and neither did the Order of the Phoenix. that was his greatest Problem and the source of his great Usefulness to both sides. But those who did show him acceptance created in him; rage. the question I am stuck at is; why?
Perhaps Snape really did feel awful at the death of James and Lily Potter; but the evidence is against him. and I think that the only reason the Lily was given a choice by Voldemort was so that JK could emphasise the importance of the fact that she made a CHOICE to give her life for her son. I do not think Severus tried to save her. If he ever did have feelings for her, the fact that she married his mortal enemy probably eclipsed these feelings in his mind and he probably thought she deserved everything she got. I can imagine displaced feelings of betrayal aimed at her - I think we are all agreed that Snape is not very mature and he has the emotional range of a five-year old?
Furthermore, he has been depicted as being in fear of the dark lord, and that coupled with his desire to fit in somewhere probably negated the possibility that he would resent any task he was assigned. He would see it as the means to an end. the end being TOTAL ACCEPTANCE. and the task of following the Dark Lord's most feared enemy could hardly be sneezed at as trivial. and any display of compassion on Dumbledore's part on this occasion would probably cause Snape to view him as a fool (refer to OoTP, occulomency lessons with Harry - "people who wear their emotions on their sleeve - weak people...etc") and not as the safer alternative. why did Snape go over to his side then you ask? Perhaps because of the possibility of being accepted by this man. His mind was probably as torn as his loyalties. and that is probably the truth about snape; his loyalties are torn, confused and nothing is certain; not even to him.
which leads me to a theory I was thinking about the other day; what if the only reason Snape killed DD is that he saw that he was dying anyway. He did look at him first for a moment, before he lifted his wand and said those fateful words. did he see the death cloud hanging over DD' s head, and know that either way, that ship had sailed; so might as well take advantage of it, fulfill my vow to Cissy, gain credence with the dark lord - yet he was in a rage... with DD perhaps? for making it possible for him to be in this situation? for finally causing him to choose? perhaps; taking choice out of his hands.
Only Book 7 can tell us; had better tell us or I will go mad.

that was awesome. i love the parallels between the language used to describe harry's 'hatred and revulsion', as well as snape's. that really clinched it for me: snape was working for dumbledore.
but am not convinced that the reason dumbledore trusted snape so strongly was because of an unbreakable vow. perhaps there was one but im sure there was sumtin else as well. i feel as if dumbles wouldn't base it all on that. and also, i feel snape is more selfless than that; that his protecting harry came from a desire to protect lily's son and allow him to vanquish voldemort in the end (and not just to live up to a vow him made).
It seems as if, especially in the battle at the end of hbp, if wat uve written is correct lady lupin, that snape was acting all for himself (protecting draco to save himself, and protecting harry to save himself). I also feel that he has more respect for, and less hatred of dumbledore.

First off Lady Lupin,

This was a plesure to read wether you have hit the nail on the head, or wether your way off.

I think that while some of your ussumptions are correct, and are on track, none of us have completly gotten right.

The people that keep writing that she is giving snape way to much credit, I think need to reread the series. Snape has been a mistery scense book 1, and JK has writen him this way for a reason, he is by far the most compelling and interesting charcter of the books. Just when you think you have a handel on him, you get hit with another curve ball. To think that he has survived playing both sides of the game for 20 years and has still managed to stay alive, to master lagilaments and Occulmency, and keep pretty much everyone in the dark is quite a feet.

I also like the way, Lady Lupin talks about Harry's and Lilly's eyes, and how when Harry looks at Snape, Snape is reminded of his vow, this gives the Importance of Lilly's eyes that Jk was talking about, and that would play a part in the books,

And while i love how Lady Lupin has put into perspective , the situation on the tower, and the events druing and following, I dont beleive snape should be given all the credit for getting himself, Draco and Harry, out alive. I beleive DD played a bigger role then we are ment to think, and while i beleive him to be dead i still think he has an Ace up his sleeve, that wil be crucial to book 7.

Now Lady Lupin you should write something like this for DD

Cheers

I have a question; since Snape hated Sirius so much for supposedly betraying Lily and James, why does he not hate Wormtail in the same manner, after learning that it was his fault. I would think that he would want to kill him, much less let Wormtail live with him.
It seems he does, to me. He can't kill Wormtail, the Dark Lord has ordered him to house him, for whatever reason. This would blow his cover...but he certainly treats Peter like dirt. Calling him vermin,intimidating him into fetching drinks, sending him out of the room, and so forth.

:tu: Very interesting editorial. While I do not agree with the idea of the Snape/Lily Vow, I think a lot of the rest is right on! I especially love the explanation of the Tower scene. I too think the evidence suggests there was no plan, just a last secind decision made by two men in unbelievably messed up circumstances. This was articulated very nicelky int he editorial.

The strength of this editorial is I believe it's simplicity. There are no far-out conjuration of events, no inventions of plot mechanisms we havn't already seen. Sure, the Lily-Snape vow is guess work, but still based on events we've seen in the books. For example, the vow itself, it's a huge bit of magic, it's a major plot device in book 6, why set it up and then not use it again? We are told time and time again that Lily is important, why? This is why I find this editorial so believable. In my opinion it dosn't make up new information it is simply the line that connects the dots of canon information we actually do have.

I tend to think that it was not a Unbreakable Vow that causes Snape to protect Harry. No, I agree with the comments that give this to the lifedebt that Snape owes James/Harry. I has been stated that this is very powerfull magic and even compelling. I could see this making Snape do things that upon reflection Snape wonders why he did them. I also see this a only kicking in when appropriate, like during the Quiditch match in book one. Now you could say that this is when Snape fullfilled this lifedebt, but I wonder... does the lifedebt get more complicated when one could not fullfill it with the original holder? Or could Snape owe Lily as well, and thus owes Harry 2 lifedebts?

Just some thoughts,
Mercer
Elf of Old

A hearty thank you to Lady Lupin for another wonderful editorial and also, to the many posters for their insightful comments, critiques and kudos! I’ve followed Lady Lupin’s editorials and the valuable posts they’ve prompted from the beginning. With the addition of the Psyche of Severus, I can finally piece together a version of Book 7 that satisfies my curiosity and renews my interest in the series. I must admit that I’ve grown tired of the huge wait between books. I guess it’s been coming on since Book 5. Please know that I LOVE the Harry Potter books and have returned to all of the books over and over as new editorials have been posted. It’s just that while I, along with millions, was charmed at first with the story of a single mom writing a bestseller, I’ve begun feeling somewhat manipulated by the billionaire author doling out literary tidbits like a relief agency delivering food to famine refugees. What I’ve come to realize is there are people like Lady Lupin whose writing is just as interesting and fun to read and also the group of consistent posters whose ideas follow the series and pay as close attention to detail as JKR herself. I know JKR’s version of Book 7 will be great and I will definitely buy a copy and enjoy reading it many times. But the value of the version that’s come about through Lady Lupin’s editorials and the reply posts is that it’s an imaginative and logical wrap-up of events, awesome fun to read and, best of all, IT’S AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW! So, many thanks to all of you!

Please, HP1954. Remember that JKR is only a billionaire because of writing her stories; her ability to project her imagination around the world. It is not her "fault" that such a talent ended up making her a lot of money. If there is a worthy way to earn billions, this is surely it. She brings huge amounts of pleasure to many of all ages, as well as stimulating creativity beyond measure. You portray her as a manipulative person in her ivory tower, but I think she just needs time to write those 700+ page books.

I agree that the wait between books is unnerving, but I also think we are blessed to be reading the series as they come out, and I cherish the opportunity to study the canon, work it over, comb it (and Mugglenet and the HP Lexicon) for clues, and postulate theories (or read others' brilliant theories, such as Lady Lupin's body of work). I pity the readers born too late, who will be able to just pick up one book after another to see what happens without much thought in between. They will likely miss much of the depth and phenomenal detail of JKR's work.

Now, as to the latest Lady Lupin brilliant editorial, I would like to just add a small comment that I also noticed at the end of HBP that Snape was essentially giving Harry some of the best advice he'd gotten all year, particularly about the necessity of mastering nonverbal spells if he's to be effective in a serious confrontation.

In addition, I would remind that Snape is committed to helping Harry overcome (or "vanquish") Voldemort, and not after. I see two ending scenarios: In one, Snape shows up late to the final post-horcrux fight between Harry and Voldemort. Both are very seriously wounded by the other. One can be healed by a potion, the other can be healed by dark magic. This is where Severus is finally forced to make a choice, take a stand and save one of them. In this scenario, he (Snape) is then killed by a protector of the one he doesn't save. I think he'll save Harry.

The second scenario involves him helping Harry defeat Voldemort, but then he turns on Harry, as he is free of his Vow. The years of subjugation to Voldemort and Dumbledore and service to Harry flung off, he sees his chance to become the next powerful Dark Lord. (We learn from Dumbledore that there is always another one.) Unfortunately, I see the outcome of this scenario as either not so good for Harry, or more likely, left uncertain. (However, since JKR made her public comments recently about not wanting people to write sequels, she may tie ends up.)

If I should post these end-of-story scenarios on another thread, let me know.

Oh, Frizzle (Post#51) Thank you so much for your well-chosen words! They're just what I needed. And, you're right, we are in a unique place to be able to read and discuss the story as it unfolds. My impatience got the better of me. Through Lady Lupin's marvelous editorials and the excellent discussion following each, the series has become one of those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. If you think Harry's scar is a Horcrux, follow this thread, if you think Snape is loyal to Voldemort, then go to this one. Or, if you think Dumbledore is still alive or Voldemort will be vanquished by a Patronus, there's a thread somewhere for you, too. The editorials are such fun to read and the discussion so faithful to details, all it takes is a little time for each of us to put together our own version of Book 7. It will be interesting to see how JKR's version matches! Thanks for helping me see how lucky we are to be living through the writing of the series instead of after!

I must say that your epilogue does make a lot of sense and i think you may have hit the nail on the head in what you have said. I am one of the firm believers that Snape is indeed a good guy, and that his loyalties to lie with Dumbledore, and therefore with Harry too. So cool editorial and hope to see more from you soon :tu: :clap:

I must say that your epilogue does make a lot of sense and i think you may have hit the nail on the head in what you have said. I am one of the firm believers that Snape is indeed a good guy, and that his loyalties to lie with Dumbledore, and therefore with Harry too. So cool editorial and hope to see more from you soon

Originally Posted by need4speed89091
I have a question; since Snape hated Sirius so much for supposedly betraying Lily and James, why does he not hate Wormtail in the same manner, after learning that it was his fault. I would think that he would want to kill him, much less let Wormtail live with him.

Originally Posted by zgirnius
It seems he does, to me. He can't kill Wormtail, the Dark Lord has ordered him to house him, for whatever reason. This would blow his cover...but he certainly treats Peter like dirt. Calling him vermin,intimidating him into fetching drinks, sending him out of the room, and so forth.


I have been thinking about this too as more potential fodder for the "good Snape" fire. Maybe Snape requests Wormtail's presence so he can Legililimence him for information, as part of the whole double agent gig? (there really isn't a verb for "legilimency," but I think there should be). I'm new to these forums (this is my first post), so I apologize if this has been covered before, but here's my theory on Snape and Wormtail in the "Spinner's End" chapter: they are both spying on each other. Voldy has put Wormtail there b/c he still doesn't totally trust Snape (that's why Wormy is always lurking and listening), and Snape allows his loathesome presence b/c there's a piece of information he's supposed to get from Wormy (much like Harry is supposed to get a certain memory from Slughorn).

We see evidence of this later when Dumbledore talks to Harry about Nagini being a possible horcrux. How does DD know about Frank Bryce's murder? I mean, Harry dreams about it in GoF but doesn't remember, and then in HBP Dumbledore tells Harry that LV used Nagini to kill Bryce. So how does he know that? My guess is that Snape told Dumby. And how does Snape know? Surely not because Voldy just mentioned in to Snape in passing one day. No, because Snape extracted the memory from Wormtail while they were living together at Spinner's End.

That's why I think he puts up with him. I know this might seem really off topic, but I meant it to be a further indication of the "any means" argument -- I don't necessarily agree with every single point in this editorial, but I do agree with the major theme, which is that Snape is a complicated character whose "motives" have never been easy to read. That's precisely what allows him to be both horrible and fun, because he leaves a lot of room around which we can all project our own thoughts/theories/fantasies/etc.

Was Snape in love with Lily, Petunia, Narcissa? Surely with one of them. Surely someone must have broken his heart. Surely this pathos will prove crucial in the culminating events of the storyline. Or at least help explain why he's alway been such a jerk... I mean, you just naturally can't help but speculate. Whereas with say, I don't know, Professor Sprout, I'm fond of her, but I don't find myself needing to fill in the missing pieces. Ahhh, JKR. There are times when I curse you -- you and that Snape character have done more to ruin my productivity than TV and computer games combined!

"It’s just that while I, along with millions, was charmed at first with the story of a single mom writing a bestseller, I’ve begun feeling somewhat manipulated by the billionaire author doling out literary tidbits like a relief agency delivering food to famine refugees."

I'm not surprised that you think Snape is a "good guy" - you're just as callous as he is. Obviously you're not a mother of two very young children and of another one who's just to enter the "difficult" years. Since having her first book published, JK has been married, had two children, changed house (of course!), did loads of work for the mascular dystrophy society in scotland, started a campain to get mentally disabled children out of caged cots in Eastern Europe and a lot of other work for an assortment of charities. And she still managed to write six (some of them massive books). JK is STILL a working mum and if I had all that money, I would take a few years off to be with my kids and have a normal life not slave away to please people like you! Put yourself in her shoes and stop being so selfish! Jo is a lovely person - she is using her influence to bring about change to people who are in real need of it. Of course I am impatient for the last book but I'm not about to whip Jo to deliver it pronto! She is doing the best she can - in fact more that most people would do under the same circumstances. Sorry to come down on you like a ton of bricks but you must realise how insensitive you sounded in your post.

Now, for the matter at hand: How can Snape keeping Wormtail as his personal doormat possibly add fuel the Snape is good theory? Snape probably asked Voldemort to keep Wormtail with him for the simple pleasure of having that power over him. Wormtail was part of the marauders and we see him particular gleeful at seeing Snape being humiliated. He is paying him back for everything the Marauders and I suspect a lot of other students did to him. James and Sirius were too smart for him and Lupin gave him no opportunity so he's plainly venting all his ill-will on the only Marauder who is/was too weak to stand up to him. Voldemort knows that Wormtail is a turncoat - one who owes Harry a favour to boot - so he has given him to Snape to keep under check. Voldemort probably also questions Wormtail about Snape's every move. Voldemort trusts no one and he probably has them spying on one another. To Voldemort (and to some of us) they are BOTH traitors. He can never vouchsafe for their loyalties.

Excellent editorial by Lady Lupin, as usual. I also took a look at a few other editorials (the Machiavelli one by BJ Texan and the DD's Iron-clad Reason). These all really took my thinking regarding Snape to a different place.
So, I had a thought ... if Snape is in it for himself and will be around at the end (end of Voldy, that is) AND pose a threat to Harry; who takes him on?

I think the answer to that has to be the Marauder's! If you look throughout the life of Severus, the only real threat that posed him a continued challenge was the Marauder's led by James and Sirius. I believe we will see the return of the Marauder's in the finale of Deathly Hallows. How, you say?

Who owes Harry a life debt and has been known to spy on those around him like a sneaky little rodent? Yes, Wormtail!

Lupin is still around and will do whatever it takes to help Harry in the end.

Harry is so like James that he thought he was James near the lake in PoA.

But, Sirius is dead! If only there was someone who could logically fill in for Sirius and complete the quartet ... hmmm .....

what about RAB?

I think Regulus is alive and will reappear in DHallows to come to Harry's aid. They will be onto Snape's weaknesses because of vital intel gained from Wormtail and the four will bring Snape down.

That's it. Hope it makes some sense - I know I'd LOVE to see the Marauder's ride one last time.