The Keys to His Soul

Discussion of the editorial The Keys to His Soul (www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-maya03.shtml) by Maya.

Interesting thoughts. I always thought Dumbledore had had the sword in his office before Harry pulled it from the hat. I could be wrong, I suppose. I can't find any canon, so far, to dispell or confirm this. What gets me is that Dumbledore didn't really act surprised to see the sword with Harry when he came up out of the Chamber. Anyone have firm evidence on this?

That's a brilliant theory. You tied a lot of tiny details together in a very convincing way (like the abduction of Florean Fortescue, e.g.:tu: ).

:clap: :clap:

There doesn't seem to be a single hole in your theory. It provides answers for a lot of questions, like why Voldemort hadn't checked on the Locket by now.

I'm not entirely sure the key-Horcrux would be the only way to get to the next one. After all, the Potion could also be drunk, and that's what Dumbledore did. I think Voldemort left this option open as a last resort. He would have used an Imperiused person to drink it, of course. But I think the idea of the four Founder-Horcruxes being connected in a way only he - presumbably - knew and could use would appeal to Voldemort. It would make things a lot easier for Harry if he could find out how it worked. But the question is: how?

Random off-spin: If your theory is correct, could R.A.B. have known that he had to use the Cup to get to the Locket? Without realizing the Cup's a Horcrux as well?

I really like this theory and could see it happening. I too was under the impression the sword was in Dumbledore's office before it came out of the hat, but as mentioned above I guess that isn't cannon.

The one thing I wonder about is RAB. How did he pentrate Voldemort defenses around the locket? Did he have the cup? Was he instructed to hide the locket by LV? Did he leave the potion Voldemort intended to be there or a new one?

But once again awesome job, I am now convinced some type of key system will come into play in Harry's quest.

My god, I really like this. Um, you wouldn't mind if I purloined parts of this theory for a fanfic-in-progress? With linked credit, of course?

Excellent theory. I've never thought of the Horcruxes being keys to access other Horcruxes but it sounds exactly how Voldemort would opperate. It's really something stupidly simple and, being the confident wizard that Voldemort is, he is probably sure that nobody else would think that he would think of something so simple. It all makes so much sense - it seems so simple, really. Of course, I'm just wondering where Voldemort would've gotten the sword from initially. Unlike some of the others, I never figured that the sword had been in Dumbledore's office beforehand. I never really had an idea as to where the sword was, to be quite honest, but now I'm definitely going to have to think on it.

Personally I think the sword must've been in the hat all along, until Harry got it out. After all, as the hat itself mentions in one of its songs, it too was a possession of Godric Gryffindor. Dumbledore said something like "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out" which has always led me to believe that Godric put it there to help someone worthy in the future. After reading this, however, it has occurred to me as a possibility that Dumbledore put it there for safekeeping, being well aware that even if Voldemort put the hat on, he could not retrieve the sword because he's evil. The only problem with this theory is that if true, why wouldn't Dumbledore have put it back in afterwards? I know I just raised and slammed my own theory, but I just thought it would save time if the suggesting and shooting down were both done at the same time. Feel free to go on with your lives.

Be lucky enough to discover where Ravenclaw’s relic is hidden before he discovers where Hufflepuff’s cup is hidden. (Hey, it’s a 50/50 chance. It wouldn’t take that much luck.)Perhaps I've just failed to notice tons of discussion about it in the forums, but this line in the editorial made me realize a couple of things...


Harry already knows how to locate all the horcruxes. He can use the same method he used to find the Philosopher's Stone - just look in the Mirror of Erised.

Voldemort thought it would increase his prestige - maybe he even thought it would prove that he's the greatest wizard there has ever been - if he made horcruxes out of the Founders' relics. But remember Arthur Weasley's warning about magical objects that can think for themselves? Voldy obviously didn't consider the possibility that the Founders' relics might have the mental wherewithal to actively rebel against having a bit of his soul stuck in them.

If you're right about Voldy having the sword with him at Godric's Hollow, you've just provided a possible solution to a mystery I've been dwelling on for some time now. Why did Percy Weasley receive a Special Award for services to the School (as we know from the trophy case at jkrowling.com)? Maybe 'Scabbers' led Percy to the sword, and Percy, seeing Gryffindor's name on it, and always on the look-out for ways to increase his prestige, took it to Dumbledore.

(Sorry about the large font size. I have no idea how that happened, or how to fix it.)

That's interesting about the Mirror of Erised but I think Harry would see Voldemort dead as his heart's desire. I even seem to remember an interview with Jo where she said it, though I'm not sure.

BTW great editorial I loved it!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Concerning the sword, in the memory where Voldemort comes to DD's office Harry notes that 'The one difference between the present-day office and this one was that it was snowing in the past.' Which would mean the sword was there or it might mean nothing because there is 1 difference, only a few paragraphs later: 'Dumbledore stood and swept over to the cabinet where he now kept the Pensieve, but which then was full of bottles.'

A sequential locking mechanism. Definitely an idea that the Dark Lord would approve of. It has the right kind of tricky feel about it too. Good editorial.

Harry Potter and the Punch Bowl of Doom, 7th book anyone?

Great Editorial

But in my version....
HARRY DISCOVERS the horcruxes the wrong way.
Thus all his friends die and Voldemort will gloat and it will be funny.

Kinda.....

Not really.....

BUT IRONIC:cool:

I like it. But where was the sword before Voldemort got it in the first place?

While there is TONS of speculation (hey what are editorials for?), you tied it all together superbly. Excellent, excellent work there.

I really like this. :)

I was so convinced that we had seen the sword in Dumbledore's office at the time of the interview - at the very least before the incident with the chamber (when Harry is called into Dumbledore's office to see if there is anything he wants to tell Dumbledore about the attacks,) yet, conveniently enough :grumble: Jo doesn't mention that in Harry's description of the room! :grumble: As one poster already mentioned, Harry said it was "the same" office with "one difference" (at the time of the interview,) yet the sword is in a case behind Dumbledore's head (when there is mention of it) - it wouldn't be hard to make note of that! Fawkes and the silver instruments are always noted, but not the sword. Additionally, when Harry pulls the sword from the hat, he doesn't note it's the one from Dumbledore's office. I also thought that there would be mention of the sword being missing from the office when Dippet was headmaster; yet, again it only says it was not the same headmaster and the office was different - no Fawkes and no whirring silver instruments. I had always been under the impression that the sword was not a Hogwarts item, but belonged to Dumbledore for some time.

Interesting idea you presented. I do think you're right about the cup and the locket being used in the way of one being a key to the other - after all, he secured those at the same time and it would have been convenient and symbolic all at once. I'm not sure if it extends much beyond that, though. For instance, what if the Ravenclaw object is a tiara? How could that be used for the cup? (getting a mental image of V in a tiara... :lol:) Not being sarcastic, just thinking that, realistically, it may not have been possible to tie the four founders together in that precise way (with one as key to another); yet, if you are right that Voldemort was able to use the sword for some purpose at some point (besides making it into a horcrux), there is a great possibility that it can be used to aid the horcrux hunt and destroy mission.

One other thing - Jo's comment about Riddle coming to life from the diary:
When answering a FAQ on her website about what would have happened if Tom Riddle had escaped the diary in CoS, JKR had this to say: “I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.”

Voldemort would’ve been strengthened because he would’ve had a body and the chance to finish Harry off with a quick Avada Kedavra -- but we could’ve guessed that a long time ago. What is it that we need to wait until Book 7 to fully understand? Maybe it’s that Voldemort did indeed use Gryffindor’s sword in a plan like the one I described above. If Tom Riddle had escaped the diary, he probably would’ve killed Harry and made off with the sword as the shiny trophy of his victory. Tom would have it, and Harry wouldn’t. While the sword might have been taken, I think Jo was really alluding to the fact that, if young diary Tom had escaped and helped the older "Vapormort" back into his body, there would be essentially 2 Voldemort's on the loose - each one (*gasp*) a living horcrux of the other - they would have to be killed simultaneously after the other horcruxes had been destroyed in order for Voldemort to die - since both would contain fragments of the same soul. They would each serve as a horcrux to the other - tying the other to earth.

I do think this is a well thought out editorial and very insightful. Great job!

"After all, as the hat itself mentions in one of its songs, it too was a possession of Godric Gryffindor. "

You know, that has always puzzled me that no one has ever speculated that the sorting hat could play a role in the great Horcrux hunt. After all, it IS a relic of Godric Gryffindor as well. "Yet how to pick the worthy ones When they were dead and gone? 'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead." (P177US) Everone focuses on the sword as though it is the only possibility.

Another point to ponder. Didn't Fudge at some point admit to being one of the first to arrive after Pettigrew and Black dueled it out on the Muggle streets. If Fudge was in the position to respond to that in a timely manner, why would he not have been present at Godric's Hollow after the Potters were killed? I like the point that Amelia Bones was a first responder. It makes sense.

Great editorial. I think it made perfect sense, after all what better 'magical property' for a cup than to neutralize poisons?

Yes, this really was a good editorial. It's creative and realistic at the same time. But I thought of the same thing that others have thought of before me: How did RAB manage without the cup? Because I think it highly unlikely that he actually found the cup and figured out that he needed to use it to get to the locket.

Another thing: if this turns out to be correct, then the tasks leading to the finding of the Philosopher's Stone (starting with putting Fluffy to sleep) in the first book sort of foreshadows what happens in the last book - only Harry doesn't know (yet) that the horcruxes have to be destroyed in a certain order. (Come to think of it, I guess that it has been suggested before that there is a connection between the different PS tasks and the horcruxes. But I don't think the element of order has been suggested as a link between the two situations before. I might be wrong, though...)

Anyway, thank you for an entertaining editorial!

Are you writing your own story using JKR's characters. In JKR's story seeing that Voldemort was wanted and if Ministery personnel saw him they would go get the aurors to attack Voldemort.
As for the sword why would you assume that Voldemort ever had it? It would either belong to Hogwarts or Dumbledore. Either is capable of taking care of their own property. Also the sword was delivered to Harry in the sorting hat that both belonged to GG. They were brought to Harry by Fawkes without Dumbledore knowledge because Dumbledore stated that Harry must have shown great devotion for Fawkes to act as he did.

The idea of a "key" cup was bang on. Really superb job. Voldy would definitely prefer sequential locking. There is some sense to it, but carrying along a sword to a murder...is well.... awkward.Amelia could definitely have been there, but i have this uncanny feeling that she was killed because she could have been a Hufflepuff descendent. Just as Fortesque and Ollivander could have been Gryffindor and Ravenclaw descendents, and maybe they could know something about relics.......... What say you?

Interesting idea. I definitely could see Voldemort using his Horcruxes that way. It would be nearly foolproof! Good job.

Originally posted by JustAnHPFan
While the sword might have been taken, I think Jo was really alluding to the fact that, if young diary Tom had escaped and helped the older "Vapormort" back into his body, there would be essentially 2 Voldemort's on the loose - each one (*gasp*) a living horcrux of the other - they would have to be killed simultaneously after the other horcruxes had been destroyed in order for Voldemort to die - since both would contain fragments of the same soul. They would each serve as a horcrux to the other - tying the other to earth.

I find this extremely frightening, and am very, very glad it did not happen.

Another thing: if this turns out to be correct, then the tasks leading to the finding of the Philosopher's Stone (starting with putting Fluffy to sleep) in the first book sort of foreshadows what happens in the last book - only Harry doesn't know (yet) that the horcruxes have to be destroyed in a certain order. I was going to say this, too. The tasks in the first book all involve opening doors with all kinds of keys: music (Fluffy), fire (Devil's Snare), flying and coordination skills (flying keys), cooperative strategy and sacrifice (chess), combat skills (Troll), logic (potions), and selfless love (mirror).

The idea of locking the Horcruxes in such a sequence is interesting. If the Horcruxes are found in a certain order, the defenses on them can be overcome. But I think they can be found and destroyed out of order also. Dumbledore found and destroyed the ring Horcrux without any key. Maybe if he had another Horcrux with him, he could have gotten to the Horcrux without getting burned. I like the concept, but I have't seen hints that this is the case yet (except maybe for the locked locket at 12 Grimmauld Place which seemed to require a key).

This editorial is just awesome. I love how you tied everything together. Jo could have made Hufflepuff's object anything, yet she chose a cup. On top of choosing a cup, she introduces the cup at the same time she introduces the locket. HELLO why didn't I see this clue before!

(except maybe for the locked locket at 12 Grimmauld Place which seemed to require a key).
or a command in parseltongue?

Lets think of what youve given us with this terrific article:

- The object Vold intended to make the last crux from when he went to Godrics Hollow and what happened to it. Ive been very curious about that myself.

- Where the sword came from. As far as assuming Hogwarts or Dumbledore had the sword, why would you assume that? Also it seems that if G is the house of, for one, loyalty, that the swords magic may be connected with the same type of 'deed'. Remmeber Faux brought Harry the hat NOT the hat and sword. And dont forget Dumbledore said the only known relic of GG is the Sword. You can bet thats a little slip. JK may have had this theory in mind and forgot all about the hat but I think it gives us reason to assume, in her eyes, the sword would be THE relic of GG's. I dont think she would intend for a character as brilliant as Dumbledore to 'forget' about an item he sees every day when all his effeort for years since book 2 was put into destroying V by finding his possible cruxes.

- It aslo gives us an easy way for Harry and the rest to be able to navigate their way through magic far beyond them by using their sluthing skills, something they do very well, and manage to get the remaining cruxes. C'mon now. I cant be the only person who thinks there's no way JK was going to have them confront the kind of magic Dumbledore faced for the Ring and Locket.

- The reason V killed Amelia Bones. There has to be more to that then filler. Along those same lines is Olivanders dissapearance. Im surprised I havent seen editorials about that. Olivander made and sold both V and Harry's wand. V & Harry's wands cannot battle each other (priori incantatem). Why else would V have kidnapped him?

- A perfect way V can get to his horcruxes with (in the case of the cup>locket) the perfect instrument as well as a great reason for why he couldve checked on the cruxes and not found the fake locket.

- A brilliant reason for Florean Fortescues kidnap which just liek Bones and Olivander I cant imagine being a minor plot detail or filler. Why kidnap an icecream parlor owner? If he offended them theyd just kill him, set the dark mark and be on their way.

And much more. This is a great editorial. Very possibly uncovering some of the plot of the last book. Ive never been compelled to register and post by an editorial before.

Interesting idea you presented. I do think you're right about the cup and the locket being used in the way of one being a key to the other - after all, he secured those at the same time and it would have been convenient and symbolic all at once. I'm not sure if it extends much beyond that, though. For instance, what if the Ravenclaw object is a tiara? How could that be used for the cup?

Think about what your forgetting though. The cup and locket dont have to relate to each other. They would only have to relate to each other's prtection. So lets assume its a tiara for ravenclaw. Maybe putting it on allows the wearer to get by an obstical that they otherwise couldnt pass to get to the cup. And the Tiaras protection would be based on the powers of the sword. See? A cup doesnt really relate to a locket much but it does relate to a basin containing a potion that must be spooned out and drunk with a goblet to GET to the locket. As someone said already, neutralizing the effects of poisn is the perfect magic for a goblet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicLantern
(except maybe for the locked locket at 12 Grimmauld Place which seemed to require a key).

or a command in parseltongue?

Excellent!

While I liked some of the theories you presented here, I can't say I agree with them.

Dumbledore told Harry he was confident the only known artifact of Godric Griffyndor's was safe. He was talking about the sword at the time. Jo has hevily hinted in some of her interviews that Dumbledore is a direct descendent of Godric Griffyndor. I take this to mean that the sword has always been in Dumbledore's possession, and he's kept a close and watchful eye on it.

I think the idea of the interlocking Horcrux system is briliant, more brilliant in fact than Voldemort is capable of coming up with. Don't get me wrong, I do think Voldemort is brilliant, but he's driven consciously by the ego-need to feel superior to everyone around him; the subconscious flip side to that is that if he can die, he's not truly superior to anyone, thus he flees from death. His modus operendi - ie the focus of his brilliance - is to find a way to live forever, avoiding natural death, and creating so much fear of himself in others they won't even speak his name, let alone think about trying to kill him.

The interlocking Horcrux key theory seems more like Ravenclaw type of brilliance. The appeal to it is that it is so smart. And it's smart in a direction I don't think Voldemort's mind goes in. If he valued intelligence for intelligence sake, then I could see this as a possibilty, but he values intelligence for how it empowers him to superiority, not safety.

Essentially, what I'm saying is: I think you're smarter to come up with something like this than Voldemort is :)

The only thing that I could think of as to why this theory may not make sense is Dumbledore's comment in CoS that only a true Gryffindor could weild the sword. How would Voldemort have then been able to take the sword into the house, if he as a Slytherin could not weild it?

But of course, Voldemort might have set up the horcruxes without having messed around with the sword at that point. He might have thought he could weild the sword at some point, then realized he couldn't. Or maybe he never gained possession of it, but had in mind to get the sword.

Of course, if only a Gryffindor could weild the sword, then perhaps only a Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, or Slytherin could use the items assigned to their house. Which might be a bit of a protection in itself. I wonder how Voldemort would have used the other items, without a Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw to help him? (but we know that he has followers other than Slytherins!) I think this idea might explain why "Ravenclaw would have it's day," as Rowling said once--Harry would need a Ravenclaw to help him wield whatever item to unlock the Hufflepuff horcrux.

Of course, I love your key idea, as it would explain how Rowling intends to finish the book up in less than 5000 pages. I mean, locating and destroying all the horcruxes might take a while, but if Harry could figure out what can destroy/unlock them (the other house items), that could shorten the plot considerably. Of course, locating all items is another problem to be considered.

I like the idea of this theory, but I am sure that Gryfindor e's sword has always been in the headmasters office. When Harry and Dumbledore go back and watch the interview between Voldemort and Dumbledore, I'm sure that the sword is in the office then and Dumbledore tells Harry that he suspects that Voldermort had wanted the sword for his own means and Voldemort wasn't given the job. Now of course Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort would have used it to make it a Horcrux. I really can't see how voldemort could have got hold of the sword to take it to Godric's Hollow. But I do really like the idea of the key theory and that you need one horcrux to get to another.

So lets assume its a tiara for ravenclaw. Maybe putting it on allows the wearer to get by an obstical that they otherwise couldnt pass to get to the cup.
Precisely! :agree: Do you see Lord Voldemort wearing a tiara?! :evil: ;)

While this is an excellently written editorial, it's based entirely on unfounded speculation. It is true that Voldemort would need some way to access his horcruxes. However, needing one horcrux to get to the next would mean that Voldemort would need to remove all his horcruxes at once. This would make them very vulnerable, and it does not seem like something he would do. You seem to have fallen victim to the curse of overanalysis. A much more likely way for Voldemort to check the locket: he commands the Inferi in the lake to fetch it for him. They can drink the potion without any ill affects since they are already dead.
On the matter of the sword, I believe that the first time it reappeared was when Harry pulled it out of the sorting hat. There is no evidence of it belonging to Dumbledore, and I don't think the sorting hat can act like a vanishing cabinet, or make random objects disappear from anywhere to reappear inside it.
Good job on your writting, I just can't agree with a theory that has no solid (as opposed to speculative) evidence.

or a command in parseltongue? Good one. Wow, I bet. If Voldy's soul is inside the locked locket and Harry opens it, what happens to the soul?

I think the idea of the interlocking Horcrux system is briliant, more brilliant in fact than Voldemort is capable of coming up with. :lol:

But there is something serpentine about a chain of Horcruxes.

I think Rincewizzard has spotted a problem:
[. . .] needing one horcrux to get to the next would mean that Voldemort would need to remove all his horcruxes at once. It seems Voldemort's life would be very hard with this plan if he wanted to check on his Horcruxes, especially the ones that need a lot of keys to get to them.

Excellent work, Maya ---but I do have a thought ---


Maybe he's not as faithful a Death Eater as we all thought. Or maybe Voldemort's playing his cards a little too close to the vest. But Lucius Malfoy saw that sword.

It was lying on Dumbledore's desk (covered in basilisk spit and blood, but still obviously a large silver sword decked in rubies. And the engraved name - Godric Gryffindor - was turned to the top for Harry to see) when he stormed in at the end of Chamber of Secrets. Right under his patrician nose.

Why did he not tell Voldemort? Did Voldie not ask the DEs if anyone had seen Gryffindor's sword lying around? Maybe that would have been too much information for people he never truly trusted.

Or maybe, after all, Voldemort doesn't need Gryffindor's sword for a key.
But it's a very -- satisfying -- theory, isn't it?


And "Punch Bowl of Doom" -- Love It!!

If Voldy's soul is inside the locked locket and Harry opens it, what happens to the soul?
Haven't gotten that far! :lol: I don't think I can take credit for that idea. While it completely resonates with me, I think I first spotted it on the forums a while back! :D Though, I've been saying it now for long enough that it feels like mine! :elaugh: I actually think Slytherin enchanted the locket to make it only open with parseltongue - V, of course, used that to his advantage. It seems, if the one in #12 is the right locket, that RAB was able to remove any protective spells on the outside of it - what waits on the inside? I'm not sure what would happen were a portion of V's soul to be released. :scared: Though, Harry suffered no ill effects specifically from the memory horcrux "dying" in the diary... it does seem, though, you have to actually "kill" that piece of soul. I mean, it's not like Harry could say, "Go on now - through the veil - that's right - time to go - yep, that way!" Wouldn't that fragment wander (the earth) as well or try to find his "home" inside V? Hmm... (*insert thinking smiley*)

On the matter of the sword, I believe that the first time it reappeared was when Harry pulled it out of the sorting hat. There is no evidence of it belonging to Dumbledore, and I don't think the sorting hat can act like a vanishing cabinet, or make random objects disappear from anywhere to reappear inside it. What an interesting idea. Now that you say it, it makes perfect sense! :rolleyes: Dumbledore even told Harry that "only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat" and the sword came in response to Harry's "help me!" So... apparently Godric sent his help! How does Dumbledore know this is the only known relic? And, even though the movies aren't canon, don't we see this sword gleaming in the background earlier in CoS? (It's not pointed out in the books when Harry first enters Dumbledore's office and witnesses Fawkes on his burning day - the sword isn't mentioned.) But I thought it was there in the movie. ??

As for the Mirror of Erised giving Harry the Horcruxes...

I was under the impression that he only actually got the stone because Dumbledore somehow magically placed it inside. Otherwise, Harry might have seen himself with the stone, but he wouldn't have gotten it right? (It's not like Harry gets his parents back when he looks in the first time).

Also, Voldemort will have put magical protection and enchantments arounds his Horcruxes to stop something like that.

Your editorial makes for an interesting read but I find myself agreeing with the others who have said that it has a lot of speculation which is not entirely born out by the books themselves. Speculation itself is fine but when this is used as a basis for further speculation it becomes harder to prove as well as to accept that it could be correct.

Your basic idea of horcruxes being used to protect other horcruxes may be correct and the order you suggest they need to be found in could be accurate but there is a possibilty it could be wrong. I am not sure I can accept your theory although it is worth considering and I won't dismiss it just yet.

[. . .] it does seem, though, you have to actually "kill" that piece of soul. I mean, it's not like Harry could say, "Go on now - through the veil - that's right - time to go - yep, that way!" Wouldn't that fragment wander (the earth) as well or try to find his "home" inside V? Hmm... (*insert thinking smiley*) I know... If I were Harry, I would wonder. I hope to see Harry speaking Parseltongue to the locket anyway. It's a neat find.

There is no evidence of it [the sword] belonging to Dumbledore [. . .] I'm not quite sure where the sword Harry pulled out of the hat was before the Chamber of Secrets, but if Dumbledore can vouch with such certainty that Voldemort never had access to it, it means he knew of its whereabouts somehow even before then.

For me, the fact that Dumbledore kept the sword in his office after Harry brought it seems to mean that it belongs to him, as the rightful heir of Gryffindor. Other possibilities are that he has permission to guard it from the heir Gryffindor or that the Gryffindor line has died off and he is guarding it as a Hogwarts heirloom. I think the most interesting option is that Dumbledore is the heir of Gryffindor; I don't see Rowling killing off the line of Gryffindor while allowing Slytherin to continue.

But another question is, what will happen to the sword now that Dumbledore is dead (if he is)?

I thought this was a wonderful editorial. I don't care that it was based on speculation like other people have said, because it is, in fact, a theory. All theories at this point are speculation. This did take some leaps and bounds, but it was a nice change to all of the already hashed out theories that have been in the editorials recently. It was brilliant. Whether or not it actually happens, I think it is an awesome idea, and I can see Jo thinking this way. And now I need to find someone to make me an avatar of dear old Voldy in a tiara because that was just too awesome.

This editorial has some brilliant detective work, and well-argued. Like so many people, I assumed the sword always sat in Dumbledore's office. However, it is not mentioned in Harry's first visit to the head's office in CoS. He notices the Sorting Hat, the instruments, Fawkes, he desk . . . but never mentions the sword (and it seems like that would be hard to miss). It's also very like Jo to mention something like the sword in passing, only to have it play an important role later on. Yet in this case, she doesn't drop a hint!

The only part I don't agree with in this editorial is Voldemort's targeting of Amelia Bones. I think it was simply because she was a very talented witch in charge of the Magical Law Enforcement department. As a terrorist on the loose, Voldemort would naturally want to eliminate her, and I doubt he could trust a hit squad of Death Eaters to manage it for him. Let's not forget someone else, though, who worked in the Ministry at the time of the Potters' deaths and would have been one of the first on the spot of a magical disaster - Cornelius Fudge. He was on-the-spot almost immediately after Sirius' "attack" on Pettigrew just a couple of days later.

This is the most brilliant editorial that I've read in a loong time! I havn't checkthe books recently, but off the top of my head I can't think of any reason why this wouldn't work. Also, you've made up the best new nickname for any Potterverse thing since TFPWWNBN; the Punch Bowl of Doom! Love it!!! Congrats on an excellent editorial!

Your editorial was very creative and well-written. One of the problems with the interlocking horcrux theory is that since we haven't seen any evidence of it for three of the horcruxes, then it seems unlikely that it would exist for the rest of them. Plus, it would make his horcruxes much more vulnerable, something he would not want to do.

I like the idea of Gryffindor's sword coming into play, but I don't think it has anything to do with horcruxes.

I think it's a great theory, and it seems just the type of thing that Jo would place in Harry's way - we've seen she likes puzzles and obstacle courses (for lack of a better phrase). I do like the way you tie tiny things together (abduction of Florean), but as was said before:

Amelia could definitely have been there, but i have this uncanny feeling that she was killed because she could have been a Hufflepuff descendent. Just as Fortesque and Ollivander could have been Gryffindor and Ravenclaw descendents, and maybe they could know something about relics.

I just don't know if all that would tie together so nicely. But then again, things tend to come together in books much more so than in real life, so you never know...:cool:

I'm not quite sure where the sword Harry pulled out of the hat was before the Chamber of Secrets, but if Dumbledore can vouch with such certainty that Voldemort never had access to it, it means he knew of its whereabouts somehow even before then.
I'm pretty sure that the sword was in the hat. Harry pulled the sword out of the hat, not from somewhere through the hat. The hat has many special attributes, but nothing suggests transportation is one of them. Also, Dumbledore does not say "Only a true Gryffindor could have caused the hat to bring them that sword." He says "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat. Also, Dumbledore had the sword after CoS because Harry gave it to him. I have no doubt that he would have given it to Harry had he asked for it. If someone can show me where I'm wrong about this, I'd be very happy. But it seems like people are just assuming something random on this one.

Your account of Voldemort's possible thoughts when concocting his horcrux plan sounds exactly like him to me. I've always thought something was a little off about Voldemort choosing 6 random (though rare and powerful) objects to house parts of his soul. I very, very much like the idea that you need one to get the next one. The level of complexity and the (seeming) infallibility of the plot would appeal very much to his vanity. I can see him patting himself on the back for coming up with such a brilliant plan. It makes me wonder even more what Dumbledore had to go through to get that ring!

Very, very nice editorial. You brought a fresh look to a subject that has been almost beaten to death. Don't take too much of the criticisms to heart, it was a great job and I think this is one of the most plausible theories I have heard in a long time. It's very JK. :tu::D

(I don't now if it has been mentioned or not yet but)
I believe the one thing that breaks the theory of "cascading
keys" is the fact that Voldemort would then have to have
two or more of his horcruxes with him at the same time to
be able perform the "unlock" process. That, to me, would not be
very bright. Also he would have to depend on the fact that
all, or most, of his horcruxes would still be safe and would
not break the chain if they had been destroyed. After all
if he thought his horcruxes could or would be destroyed why
would he have created 6 of them to begin with?

I also do not believe in the fact that Nagini is a horcrux:
snakes do not live a relatively long time, 10 to at most 40 years.
Voldemort would have to depend on Nagini living a very long time
to be able to say he took steps to "guard myself against mortal
death" and not have to pick a new horcrux "host" every 10 or
so years. (Thought, Would he then have to commit a new murder
to create a horcrux every time?)

I also believe that Dumbledore was right in saying that the sword
was GGs last relic. Would you consider the sorting hat as a much a relic
as you would one of GGs socks????

Good editorial ! :tu:

However, needing one horcrux to get to the next would mean that Voldemort would need to remove all his horcruxes at once. This would make them very vulnerable, and it does not seem like something he would do.

Well, Voldemort being Voldemort, maybe he assumed that there would be no one who could get to the horcruxes without the previous key. If that was the case, then if he knew that the first key horcrux was safe, he would simply assume that they were all safe. He wouldn't be able to conceive of someone risking his own life to get to a horcrux and so he would only check on one horcrux--if that one was safe, he would assume they were all safe.

Great editorial, I really enjoyed it. :clap: This seems very plausible to me and very much like JK's style.

But another question is, what will happen to the sword now that Dumbledore is dead (if he is)?
Dumbledore wills it to Harry? That would be great and truly symbolic - after all, Dumbledore told Harry that "only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat" - Harry might not be the heir of Gryffindor in a physical sense, but symbolically, he would be that "heir" as being Dumbledore's protege, possessing Gryffindor's qualities and spirit, etc.
I have no doubt that he would have given it to Harry had he asked for it. That's interesting. Perhaps he wouldn't have though, at least at that age, since he knew about V and his quest for immortality and had just been handed proof that V made more than one horcrux. :scared: But, even more support for Dumbledore giving it to Harry after his, Dumbledore's, death.

I'm pretty sure that the sword was in the hat. Harry pulled the sword out of the hat, not from somewhere through the hat. The hat has many special attributes, but nothing suggests transportation is one of them. Also, Dumbledore does not say "Only a true Gryffindor could have caused the hat to bring them that sword." He says "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat. Also, Dumbledore had the sword after CoS because Harry gave it to him. I have no doubt that he would have given it to Harry had he asked for it. If someone can show me where I'm wrong about this, I'd be very happy. But it seems like people are just assuming something random on this one.

I never thought "the sword was always in Dumbledore's office". Every time it was mentioned, I thought about how Harry killing the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets is such a big deal that it's showcased in Dumbledore's office, a nice little reminder of how extraordinary Harry actually is, considering how ordinary he is. I think the problem is that for a long time people have had this "Heir of Gryffindor" idea in their heads. Just because Slytherin and Gryffindor are "opposites" doesn't mean they both have "heirs"! Dumbledore's not the heir of Slytherin, and either is Harry. Why? Because the only reason Slytherin's line is about to die out is because purebloods can only marry purebloods, according to Slytherin doctrine. You know how if I marry my brother, than instead of two sets of children from our bloodline, my brother's kids and mine, we just have one set of children. As sick as many of you probably find my point, do you get what I'm saying? The Slytherins naturally kill themselves off by marrying their cousins and stuff, all for the sake of remaining pureblooded. Now Gryffindors like Ron and James are perfectly willing to marry people that aren't somehow related to them, because they accept Muggle-borns, or even Muggles! Talk about branching off the Gryffindor ancestral line! Hopefully it'll never die out! Slytherin's dying out because a) Slytherin's are more likely to not want kids (take Voldemort or Snape; Fudge or Umbridge for example) nd b) the inbreeding thing I mentioned before.


I do have more to say about this editorial. I know I loved it when I read it, and even though I was sure a lot of it was wrong, I still thought something was probably right on. Although now that I'm reading all these comments, I'm not sure what. I think the idea people have been quoting from a previous poster, the idea that Parseltongue is the "key" to opening the locket, is most likely correct. It's probably the only way. And it would be even the key more than once! I mean, Voldemort's the only living person with the ability to talk to snakes, and the last one ever, right? Of course he didn't count on just be able to accidentally "give" the power to Harry - and even if Voldemort knows now that Harry has the power, he probably thinks too little of Harry to suspect him knowing about his Horcrux plan - even if Voldemort suspects Dumbledore knew and told Harry, in Voldemort's train of thought Harry would never find his Horcruxes, so he's still safe. Right?


I think you all are on to something, kind of, with the Amelia Bones, Florean Fortescue, minor detail thing. They are extremely minor details, which we Potter-obsessors might not realize. 90% of readers probably will say "That nice judge-lady that tried Harry died? Really?" if you told them. Yet JKR made the 3 deaths (if you add in Olivander) clear enough, that you might remember one, and if it says in book 7 (Harry Potter and the Punch Bowl of Doom, yes that would be great) "Olivander, Florean Fortescue, and Amelia Bones were killed by Voldemort because...", I think it would still make sense to everyone.

That being said, I don't think trying to analyze their deaths with so little to base your speculation on is really pointless. Yes, Amelia might be a
Hufflepuff descendant - Olivander could be Ravenclaw too! Yes, Fortescue being the name of both the dead former headmaster and the ice cream man might mean they're related. Yes, these people were all good people, and nice to Harry. But we know virtually NOTHING about them, so I'd say give up on them right now.


The key system seems "virtually flawless", which would be the perfect thing to bring about Voldemort's downfall - he thinks he has a follproof Horcrux plan, but he really has a Horcrux ship called the Titanic. And Harry could sink it. But I don't think the sword's involved. And I don't think Dumbledore was wrong about anything he told Harry pertaining to Voldemort's Horcruxes.

This was a great editorial, and the idea of a sequential lock would appeal to Voldemort. The only thing i'm not sure about is whether Voldemort would have had access to the Sword.



I'm not quite sure where the sword Harry pulled out of the hat was before the Chamber of Secrets, but if Dumbledore can vouch with such certainty that Voldemort never had access to it, it means he knew of its whereabouts somehow even before then.

I always assumed that that the reason Dumbledore knew that it was the only relic belonging to Godric Gryffindor was that before Harry pulled the sword from the hat no relic existed. As for knowing that Voldemort had never had access to it, well I like to believe that Dumbledore would know if something that had been in his office for 4 years was a horcrux, or had any unusual magical properties.

I thought that Dumbledore always had the sword, but I think that maybe I just assumed that so I will go back and read that again. But I do think that Dumbledore knew that the sword could be transported (or whatever you want to call it) from the hat, otherwise how would have the Fawks known to bring the hat to Harry?

I enjoyed the editorial very much. I think it speaks to how inteligent Tom Riddle is; all the dark magic and experimenting he did could not have been done by an overconfident idiot. Remember, Tom was one of the best students at Hogwarts in his day. Dictators may be many things but they're not dumb.

The 'key' system does make for some rather vindictive sense, though that is not to say that every horcrux is involved in the system. Perhaps it is just the horcruxes made from Founder's relics which are in the key system. The first two horcruxes were made while Tom was a student at Hogwarts, before he knew of any true relics. When he happened upon the two relics later on, a key system may have popped in his head. It is possible that when Tom went to Dumbledor seeking the DADA post after years in the magical underworld, he had relics from all the Founders except for Gryffindor. Should Tom have found (by whatever means) that Dumbledore had Gryffindor's sword (or any relic of his) the key system would be all the better.

The sword, or any item for that matter, could be all that is needed to easily retrieve the other Founder relic horcruxes. All the horcruxes are in 'safe' places and are probably easily checked on (one look at the punchbowl of doom and he would know whether or not it was there). Until the diary showed up, no one knew for sure that horcruxes were even being employeed.

Long story short (too late), Gryffindor's sword could be what unlocks Ravenclaw's tiara which inturn retrieves Hufflepuff's cup. The sword would not have to be a horcrux at all for it is in the safest place Tom could ever want it: Dumbledore's office. In Tom's understanding, should his horcrux secret get back to Dumbledore (thank you, Lucius) and the Founder connection be discovered, then three would be protected by the key Dumbledore does not know he has because the sword would stay in its safe from horcruxdom place.

If there is a key sytem, it is proven faulty as the locket (the last in the series) had been retrieved without the cup. It would not surprise me if when the trio goes after Ravenclaw's whatever, Ron says, "You know, that 'whatever' would have really helped us get that Hufflepuff cup." To which Hermione would stop and think for a minute before making the connection. And Harry would look at the task at hand and say, "I need a sword and I know where to get the right one."

The entire theory that each horcrux is a key to the next seems to center around the idea that Voldemort somehow used Gryffindor's sword as the first key. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE SWORD UNTIL AFTER HARRY PULLS IT FROM THE HAT! (sorry, I had to get that out of my system.) How could Voldemort have used the sword if it didn't appear until the end of Harry's second year? The sorting hat did not magically transport the sword to Harry from Dumbledore or from anywhere else. Harry pulled it out of the hat. JKR told us in the Mugglenet/TLC HBP release interview that when the hat speaks aloud, it's coming directly from the founders. It follows logically that whatever else it gives comes directly from the founders. When Harry asked for help, Godric Gryffindor gave it to him. Before I can believe this horcrux key theory, prove to me how Voldemort could have gotten access to the sword.

I think Rincewizzard has spotted a problem:

[. . .] needing one horcrux to get to the next would mean that Voldemort would need to remove all his horcruxes at once.
It seems Voldemort's life would be very hard with this plan if he wanted to check on his Horcruxes, especially the ones that need a lot of keys to get to them.
Voldemort wouldn't need to use the keys if there were other ways to retrieve a single, endangered Horcrux (like drinking the Potion). On the other hand, if somebody ever figured out that he got his hands on four different Founder's objects, and figured out where they were, he'd have a quick way to get at all of them in a safe way. And a lot faster than the thief.

I actually think Slytherin enchanted the locket to make it only open with parseltongue - V, of course, used that to his advantage.
Me too. That was the first thing that came to my mind after I figured out that locket was the easily spottable Horcrux. That's one of the few things I feel absolutely sure about.

I wouldn't be surprised if the soul-piece in the Horcrux will already 'die' if the locket was opened. Voldemort probably didn't think there would be another Parselmouth around to destroy the locket the easy way.

Now that is what you called a true theory. This is so simple and it can honestly work as canon. I am sure JKR would of pat you in back then knock out before you figure out something else. Lol

I wouldn't be surprised if the soul-piece in the Horcrux will already 'die' if the locket was opened. Voldemort probably didn't think there would be another Parselmouth around to destroy the locket the easy way.
Great idea! :clap: And a way for Harry to easily get rid of a horcrux. He does have 4 and only 1 book to find and destroy them all. The cup, we have no idea where it would be (or we think we don't ;)) and there is an unknown object - not to mention all the other tie-ups in the book. The locket would be the likely one to get rid of quickly. This sort of throws a kink into the key theory since it's likely Harry won't think of finding one before destroying another; and, he doesn't know what order. Unless, of course, he happens to overhear a conversation (unlikely - as how would he overhear V?) that says the horcruxes are keys to the other ones and this is the order of them.

I'm with you 100% on every little bit of this editorial from the sword at Godric's Hollow (Wormtail was made carry it like the treatcherous servant that he is) to the very end. Love the idea you brought up about Amelia it definitely fits and is more excuseable than her being the descendant.
Voldemort filling in a form at the Ministry Lost and Found Department! Class!

my brain hurts trying to process all of this! but this editorial was very well thought out. voldemort must have really thought out his plans for his horcruxes...

it would be soo much easier if voldemort would just melt like the wicked witch of the west...

Well, Voldemort being Voldemort, maybe he assumed that there would be no one who could get to the horcruxes without the previous key. If that was the case, then if he knew that the first key horcrux was safe, he would simply assume that they were all safe. He wouldn't be able to conceive of someone risking his own life to get to a horcrux and so he would only check on one horcrux--if that one was safe, he would assume they were all safe.

Great editorial, I really enjoyed it. :clap: This seems very plausible to me and very much like JK's style.


Exactly! Remember, Voldemort does not believe anyone (DE, Order member, pizza-delivery owl) knows about his horcruxes (plural) in any significant detail. As he touts himself the greatest sorcerer ever, does he really anticipate anyone a) deducing his multiple horcruxes, b) realizing their significance in defeating him, or c) having the temerity to seek them out, let alone destroy them?

Additionally, perhaps I've missed something, but I never got the impression that a horcrux has to be "used" in some way. The fact that it exists, encasing a portion of the soul, is what keeps the creator's body alive, whether corporeal, vapor, or otherwise.

Fascinating editorial ~ bravo!

The entire theory that each horcrux is a key to the next seems to center around the idea that Voldemort somehow used Gryffindor's sword as the first key. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE SWORD UNTIL AFTER HARRY PULLS IT FROM THE HAT! (sorry, I had to get that out of my system.) How could Voldemort have used the sword if it didn't appear until the end of Harry's second year? The sorting hat did not magically transport the sword to Harry from Dumbledore or from anywhere else. Harry pulled it out of the hat. JKR told us in the Mugglenet/TLC HBP release interview that when the hat speaks aloud, it's coming directly from the founders. It follows logically that whatever else it gives comes directly from the founders. When Harry asked for help, Godric Gryffindor gave it to him. Before I can believe this horcrux key theory, prove to me how Voldemort could have gotten access to the sword. You have me convinced and inspired me to write an editorial. Would you like to see it? (Unless you'd be interested in writing one). This is a great idea. I tend to think that Dumbledore may have even suspected or known the sword was in the hat, but was unable to get it out himself.



Dumbledore wills it [the sword] to Harry? That would be great and truly symbolic - after all, Dumbledore told Harry that "only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat" - Harry might not be the heir of Gryffindor in a physical sense, but symbolically, he would be that "heir" as being Dumbledore's protege, possessing Gryffindor's qualities and spirit, etc.
I bet that is going to happen! And that also would make it in the editorial. No majorly new ideas, but kind of tying a few loose ends with your guys' ideas and a few of my own.

Getting back to the key Horcruxes: I am beginning to have a hard time envisioning exactly how the system would work. Can Voldemort stay just in one place and call all the Horcruxes to himself: for example, if he has the sword in his hand (but now I am convinced he never had access to it) he can magically withdraw the next Horcrux from wherever it is hidden, and then with that Horcrux in hand he can magically withdraw the following one, and so on, but he doesn't budge, and what this does is get all the Horcruxes to him almost instantly, in case he realizes someone is after them.

The reason he would have created an additional way for himself to get to the Horcruxes then would be either to check on a Horcrux that could not be retrieved with a key and see why that was, if it was really gone or if there was another problem, or else to move a Horcrux to a different place, or else to replace it there after checking on it with the key?

I loved this editorial! Whatever the first key is the fact that one leads to the other is great! Jk has a lot to explain and have Harry do in the next book. With this logical sequence Hermione should be able to figure it out quickly leaving the remainder of the books for JK to fill in all the other equally important blanks. (Snapes loyalty, Godrics Hollow, Final Battle, Bella v. Neville, Draco, Fenrir Greyback, Lupin/Tonks, Percy, Rufus Scrimgoer, Harry/Ginny etc etc etc. Two thumbs up! And a thought, if a split piece of soul can wait until a vessel is available, who says that the sword is so far fetched? Perhaps Voldemort would have killed Harry and waited until he obtained the sword in some way to create the horcrux?

Excellent theory--very well done.

Could be "a profitable line of inquiry"!!!!


Weasley is our king!!!

Hi-- I'm Maya, author of the editorial.

Thanks to everybody for reading and commenting. I'm trying to work my way through the thread, answering questions. Since this process always takes me three times longer than it should, I'll be doing it a page or so at a time.

Oh, and if you were all nice and sweet and totally complementary-- I probably won't be replying to you since I've got my hands full just trying to get through the questions and clarifications. But I really do appreciate your kind words.


I always thought Dumbledore had had the sword in his office before Harry pulled it from the hat. I could be wrong, I suppose. I can't find any canon, so far, to dispell or confirm this.

That's because there isn't any. (Anyone who doubts me but can't be bothered to check for themselves can always reference the Lexicon (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/devices/horcruxes.html#candidate).)

And, yeah, it just kind of gets in your head that the sword was always there. But it's never mentioned as being in the office in any scene or memory that occurs before Harry fights the basilisk. If JKR meant to imply that Dumbledore's had the sword forever, why not mention it in one of those scenes? Why not have Tom Riddle gaze hungrily at it during his job interview? Why not have Harry notice it when he's first in Dumbledore's office in CoS? It seems a bit conspicuous in its absense.

What gets me is that Dumbledore didn't really act surprised to see the sword with Harry when he came up out of the Chamber.

Immediately after presenting the sword, Harry spends a long time explaining what happened in the Chamber: "So Harry, his voice now growing hoarse from all this talking, told them about Fawkes's timely arrival and about the Sorting Hat giving him the sword." (CoS, ch 18) I'm not sure we can fairly count Dumbledore as unsurprised when he's just had the whole thing explained to him.


I'm not entirely sure the key-Horcrux would be the only way to get to the next one. After all, the Potion could also be drunk, and that's what Dumbledore did. I think Voldemort left this option open as a last resort. He would have used an Imperiused person to drink it, of course.

Actually, I disagree. If Voldemort realized he could use an Imperiused person (or Muggle child or house-elf or stray circus monkey) to drink the potion, he should have realized that anyone else could do the same. That runs contrary to Dumbledore’s suggestion that Voldemort “had set other obstacles ahead that only he would be able to penetrate.” I tend to think it makes more sense to assume Voldemort completely overlooked the potential to take a second person on the boat than it does to assume he built it in as a feature and simply trusted that no one else would take advantage of it.

That completely fits Voldemort's MO, by the way. He has a distinct pattern (common to fictional villians) of coming up with plans that are just short of foolproof. He always forgets about the loophole that becomes his downfall until it's too late. (Oops! Forgot that a mother's love is a powerful countercharm. Oops! Forgot that phoenix tears have healing powers. Etc.)

Voldemort also has a very bad habit of assuming that anyone powerful enough to stop him is going to be like him. Voldemort surrounded the locket with darkness and dead bodies-- things that he himself is afraid of. He chose Harry over Neville because Harry's background was more like his own. He was expecting any true challenger to think and act like him. So, yes, there was a non-key way to get to the locket. But Voldemort just didn't see it, and wasn't about to assume someone would think of something he didn't.

But I think the idea of the four Founder-Horcruxes being connected in a way only he - presumbably - knew and could use would appeal to Voldemort. It would make things a lot easier for Harry if he could find out how it worked. But the question is: how?

Harry's greatest ability (okay, other than love) is his instinct. If he has the sword in hand by the time they make it to the last protection on the Ravenclaw Horcrux (like I said, 50/50 chance of finding Ravenclaw's first, so JKR wouldn't even be pushing the odds), I have no doubt that he'll figure out what to do with it. If Hermione sees that the sword helped get Ravenclaw's object, she has enough info to put the rest together and do one of those "It's so obvious!" speeches. At which point they can move on to using the Ravenclaw relic to get Hufflepuff's relic.


The one thing I wonder about is RAB. How did he pentrate Voldemort defenses around the locket? Did he have the cup? Was he instructed to hide the locket by LV?

I doubt it was either of those methods-- both would mean Voldemort was playing a little too fast & loose with his Horcruxes. I lean pretty strongly toward the idea that Regulus had Kreacher's help in retrieving the locket.

Did he leave the potion Voldemort intended to be there or a new one?

There's reason to believe (http://queenzigs.livejournal.com/4452.html) that the basin was capable of refilling itself. On top of that, actually, you'd have to wonder why Regulus would want to fill the basin with a potion that would make it harder for Lord Voldemort to read the note he left. Regulus probably left the note assuming Voldemort had a way around the trap in the first place.


My god, I really like this. Um, you wouldn't mind if I purloined parts of this theory for a fanfic-in-progress? With linked credit, of course?

Go for it. Would you mind posting a link to the story here when you're done? It'd be fun to see it.


Harry already knows how to locate all the horcruxes. He can use the same method he used to find the Philosopher's Stone - just look in the Mirror of Erised.

I know that idea's been bounced around quite a bit-- I think they were covering it on Mugglecast recently-- so I won't get into the full pro/con list. I'll just skip to the biggest problem I see with that idea: Dumbledore had the mirror. Dumbledore probably knew more about the mirror than anyone. Yet Dumbledore didn't/couldn't use the mirror to figure out where the Horcruxes are. I don't think helping to find Horcrux locations will be the mirror's role in the final book.


That's interesting about the Mirror of Erised but I think Harry would see Voldemort dead as his heart's desire. I even seem to remember an interview with Jo where she said it, though I'm not sure.

Yep. Mugglenet/Leaky interview (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml):

MA: If Harry was to look in the Mirror of Erised at the end of Book 6, what would he see?

JKR: He would have to see Voldemort finished, dead gone, wouldn't he? Because he knows now that he will have no peace and no rest until this is accomplished.


Harry Potter and the Punch Bowl of Doom, 7th book anyone?

Sirius was killed by drapery, a punch bowl led to Dumbledore's downfall... The most ominous title for Book 7 may be Harry Potter and the Housewares Department at Sears. ("Oh no! That toaster just killed Ron!")


But in my version....
HARRY DISCOVERS the horcruxes the wrong way.
Thus all his friends die and Voldemort will gloat and it will be funny.

Possible, but the added pages of angst involved would probably push it beyond the promised baby hippopotamus weight limit (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=35).


But where was the sword before Voldemort got it in the first place?

Same place as Ravenclaw's relic: in The Land of Who-Knows-But-Probably-With-The-Descendant-Of-A-Founder-If-Slytherin-And-Hufflepuff's-Relics-Were-Meant-To-Set-The-Precedent.

The postage stamps are very large there.


I'm not sure if it extends much beyond that, though. For instance, what if the Ravenclaw object is a tiara? How could that be used for the cup? (getting a mental image of V in a tiara... :lol:) Not being sarcastic, just thinking that, realistically, it may not have been possible to tie the four founders together in that precise way (with one as key to another)

Don't think realistically-- this is fiction. If I'm right and JKR planned for the Horcruxes to be used as keys, she would have simply invented Horcruxes that made good keys. The objects would be subordinate to the logic puzzle. Considering that there's magic involved, this is really easy to do. Choose a Ravenclaw relic, assign it a power, and protect the Hufflepuff relic with something that can only be overcome by that power. Go about it this way, and even a tiara could be a key.

And while I'm pretty sure it's not the tiara, an unusual Ravenclaw artifact would be a good way to keep things interesting. If the Trio's already figured out that they need to use Ravenclaw's artifact to get Hufflepuff's, it might be fun if they have to figure out what on earth Ravenclaw's artifact can do that would be helpful to them.

I think Jo was really alluding to the fact that, if young diary Tom had escaped and helped the older "Vapormort" back into his body, there would be essentially 2 Voldemort's on the loose - each one (*gasp*) a living horcrux of the other - they would have to be killed simultaneously after the other horcruxes had been destroyed in order for Voldemort to die - since both would contain fragments of the same soul. They would each serve as a horcrux to the other - tying the other to earth.

But we can figure that out after Book 6, and she specifically referenced Book 7. Since it obviously didn't happen that way, there's no big need to keep that a secret at this point if that's really all there is to it.


You know, that has always puzzled me that no one has ever speculated that the sorting hat could play a role in the great Horcrux hunt. After all, it IS a relic of Godric Gryffindor as well. "Yet how to pick the worthy ones When they were dead and gone? 'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead." (P177US) Everone focuses on the sword as though it is the only possibility.

The hat may help somehow, but JKR's already said it's not a Horcrux (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/rumours_view.cfm?id=43).

On top of that, the three known Founder relics coincide rather neatly with three of the four Tarot suits. And since there's no "hat" suit...

Didn't Fudge at some point admit to being one of the first to arrive after Pettigrew and Black dueled it out on the Muggle streets. If Fudge was in the position to respond to that in a timely manner, why would he not have been present at Godric's Hollow after the Potters were killed?

He could've been there, since he was clearly on duty around then. He was in the Department of Magical Catastophes, though, so his role would've been different from Amelia's.

On the one hand, Fudge seems like a potentially useful source of information about what went on Ministry-wise after Voldemort's fall (especially now that Fudge's been sacked). On the other hand, he didn't imply that he was actually at the Potter's house when telling the teachers and Rosmerta the story of that night during PoA. Hagrid was the one to fill in that part of the story.


Come to think of it, I guess that it has been suggested before that there is a connection between the different PS tasks and the horcruxes.

One of the things I like about this idea is that it means the remaining hidden Horcruxes are Ravenclaw's & Hufflepuff's. Since those Houses are associated with intelligence (Hermione) and loyalty (Ron), it might mean JKR's planning to give both of Harry's best friends their own moment to shine in the final book. It would be similar to Ron with the chess set and Hermione with the potions in PS.


Are you writing your own story using JKR's characters. In JKR's story seeing that Voldemort was wanted and if Ministery personnel saw him they would go get the aurors to attack Voldemort.

Um... I'm really trying to answer as many questions as possible, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Did you understand I was saying Voldemort couldn't just go strolling into the Ministry? That's why he had to attack Amelia at home. And Amelia was a little too busy being murdered to fetch the Aurors...

Or maybe you were confused about my suggestion that Amelia was at Godric's Hollow? I was saying she would've arrived after the house was destroyed and therefore after Voldemort was considered either dead or missing. It's not like her Spidey-senses told her to rush to the Potters' house before a crime was committed.

As for the sword why would you assume that Voldemort ever had it? It would either belong to Hogwarts or Dumbledore.

Funny, that's not mentioned in the books... Are you writing your own story using JKR's relics?


There is some sense to it, but carrying along a sword to a murder...is well.... awkward.

I'm no sword expert, but why couldn't he have just thrown it in a scabbard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scabbard) and been on his way? Gryffindor managed, didn't he?

Amelia could definitely have been there, but i have this uncanny feeling that she was killed because she could have been a Hufflepuff descendent. Just as Fortesque and Ollivander could have been Gryffindor and Ravenclaw descendents, and maybe they could know something about relics.......... What say you?

I say... mostly no. I think some points have been mentioned farther down the thread, so I'll do a quick version:

The non-Slytherin Founders should theoretically have lots of descendants since they presumably didn't encourage inbreeding. In fact, we know Hepzibah had more family. And if Amelia is an heir of Hufflepuff, she certainly isn't the only heir-- her niece goes to school with Harry. And if they're not the only heirs, Voldemort would need a particular reason to go after those descendants and not others.
If Voldemort went after all three for similar Horcrux-related reasons, why take on Amelia himself while leaving Fortescue to the Death Eaters?
We already have a perfectly good reason for Ollivander's disappearance-- Priori Incantatem. He made Harry and Voldemort's wands, and Voldemort would probably like to have a little talk with Ollivander before facing Harry again.

Founder-descendants may come into it somehow, but I can't help but feel it overcomplicates things if Bones, Fortescue, and Ollivander all happen to be descendants. It adds more baby-hippo bulk where it's probably not needed.

If any of the three you mentioned turn out to be descendents, I would guess Fortescue for Gryffindor. Admittedly, it's for a fluffy reason-- his last name reminds me of the word "fortitude." (Incidentally, if there are any Gryffindor descendants to be discovered, the trip to the graveyard in Godric's Hollow could be an easy way to put the Trio on the case. Surnames on tombstones might prove enlightening.)


Back with more responses later-- if anyone's got more questions, throw them on the pile in the meantime. ;)

VERY inttresting idea i really like it , now i have something to think about for a while.

I really liked your editorial. It was very enjoyable indeed. Your writting style is very funny ("punch bowl of doom").

I think your theory is very possible, unfortunately we don't have any canon evidence to support an idea of this magnitude, but it does fit so far.

I bet that is going to happen! And that also would make it in the editorial. No majorly new ideas, but kind of tying a few loose ends with your guys' ideas and a few of my own.
Where is the editorial? I'd like to see it. BTW, are you the columnist for The Two-Way Mirror? I thought Daniela's screen name was Magic Lantern but maybe you're a different one! :)

Don't think realistically-- this is fiction. :lol: This is true! ;) If I'm right and JKR planned for the Horcruxes to be used as keys, she would have simply invented Horcruxes that made good keys. The objects would be subordinate to the logic puzzle. Considering that there's magic involved, this is really easy to do. Choose a Ravenclaw relic, assign it a power, and protect the Hufflepuff relic with something that can only be overcome by that power. Go about it this way, and even a tiara could be a key.

And while I'm pretty sure it's not the tiara, an unusual Ravenclaw artifact would be a good way to keep things interesting. If the Trio's already figured out that they need to use Ravenclaw's artifact to get Hufflepuff's, it might be fun if they have to figure out what on earth Ravenclaw's artifact can do that would be helpful to them.

There were just way too many tiara references (as well as references to Auntie Muriel, who, in fact owns a family heirloom tiara :eyebrows:) for it not to be significant. That, and we only have 1 book to go. I really don't see Jo making all those references for a big red herring when we're so close to the end. Yet, it's quite possible that the tiara (or any tiara) is not the Ravenclaw item, but a clue towards it. And, I do see your point about the keys, and thought your editorial well put together. It just seems, to me at least, that the majority of the support is for the cup/locket combo than anything else - especially in light of the enlightening post about the whereabouts of Gryffindor's sword prior to the Chamber! (This whole time I just knew it was with Dumbledore!) Thanks for responding to me! :D

Where is the editorial? I'd like to see it. BTW, are you the columnist for The Two-Way Mirror? I thought Daniela's screen name was Magic Lantern but maybe you're a different one! :) That's me! I'll send you an owl with the editorial. (I think I'll probably lose some of the formatting, but we'll see). I'm not sure if I should post it after all, so I've been just keeping it on a back burner.

That's me! I'll send you an owl with the editorial. (I think I'll probably lose some of the formatting, but we'll see). I'm not sure if I should post it after all, so I've been just keeping it on a back burner.
I owled you back with some feedback. Hope you don't mind! :blush: :elaugh: How is it (so off topic - I'm sorry mods) that you're down so low in posts? Shouldn't you be an employee at Zonko's by now?

hehe (http://c.1asphost.com/fanofdna/voila.JPG)


Sorry, it made me laugh (of course, I'm not at home with photoshop, but it gets the point across).

I just want to say that I quite enjoyed this editorial. I thought that several of the facts were plausible and the whole key-system seemed to fit Voldemort (especially since he sees ONLY his way ONLY ONLY ONLY and wouldn't have thought that a key is not the only way in- there's a window or a back door).

I always thought that Dumbledore was in possession of Gryffindor's sword and even though there is no canon evidence to prove it (Harry not mentioning it before finding it in the Sorting Hat), I find it difficult to believe that it just materialized out of the hat. I'm sure that if Harry had gimped into Dumbledore's office covered in blood, dirt, and basilik spit carrying a gleaming ruby-encrusted sword then even stoic Dumbledore would have been slightly thrown for a loop.

Since I believe that Dumbledore was always in possesion of the sword (perhaps a descendant? perhaps just a lucky find in the Room of Requirement one day? it doesn't matter), it is entirely feasible that Riddle saw the sword in Dumbledore's office when he was the Transfiguration teacher and it stuck with him. Perhaps he learned of relics of the other founders and vowed to come back one day to turn the sword into his final Horcrux and the first key to his system, but **** happened and too bad, so sad.

I will be very interested to see how this theory holds up when the next book comes out :)

zaria, love it! Thanks for adding it!!!
I'm sure that if Harry had gimped into Dumbledore's office covered in blood, dirt, and basilik spit carrying a gleaming ruby-encrusted sword then even stoic Dumbledore would have been slightly thrown for a loop. excellent point! great theory too about Voldemort turning up for the "position" as teacher.

How is it (so off topic - I'm sorry mods) that you're down so low in posts? Shouldn't you be an employee at Zonko's by now? No idea! That can't be right. (Unless they only count the posts in threads that are still active?) I haven't posted a lot lately, but 17 is way off my "grand total."

No idea! That can't be right. (Unless they only count the posts in threads that are still active?) I haven't posted a lot lately, but 17 is way off my "grand total."
It is and you used to be in Hogsmeade too I thought (name in italics and all that) - weird huh?

Maya- Very interesting editorial.

To carry your word play a bit farther, Corpses, Bones, Skeleton, Skeleton Key? Might Voldemort have arranged so that there was at least one Key that could "open" them all?

Because the biggest problem I have with your theory is the way the sequencing would hamstring Voldemort and work against his interest. Suppose he has reason to fear one of the Horcrux has been recovered? Now if it is the first one in the sequence (which has what key? Voldemort himself, perhaps, or something he thinks only he can do, ie Parseltounge.) its no problem to check on it. But what if it is the last one? And in fearing one may have been discovered, he has reason to fear that someone knows about at least one, and maybe more, and therefore has reason to fear that it is really a trick to get Voldemort to lead whomever to the horcrux.

Now he has to risk exposing all of the Horcrux to make sure the last is safe. Even if he thinks it is a trap. What could he do?

Maybe send RAB into the one in question without a key. But that wont help Voldemort, since RAB will only get out of the cave if the traps don't work, and Voldemort still won't know if the horcrux is there. And he will have given the location away, to RAB at least, but perhaps to whoever was trying to trick him as well. (For a moment I thought you had discovered the "key" to how RAB found the Cave. If RAB told Voldemort he had heard that Dumbledore was looking for a cave, Voldemort might be suspicious of him and let him fall into the trap of the cave, especially if he alreaady knew it was. But if he did, why try to trick Voldemort? Perhaps there is more to this line I'm not seeing as I think of it as I'm writing.)

So unless there is a skeleton key, Voldemort sequencing creates a problem of security of his own making. And I think he is too cunning to make that mistake. If the sequencing is for his own ego rather than for security, because he doesn't expect his secret to be discovered, then he might have a skeleton key as well. And to really stretch the key business, how would the Keeper of the Keys at Hogwarts do as a Skeleton Key? (Recall how Hagrid's giant's skin resisted magical attack. What other significance can Keys bear to a story where first year students can render them pointless?)

wow. That was really in-depth. I can't beleive I didnt think of the possibility that Voldemort had wanted to make the sword a hocrux, but couldn't, which would be why he was missing a hocrux relating to a founder. I can't wait to see how this plays out, but I think there is a high possibility of this being true. Wonderful analysis.

very interesting! I like it! :) very well thought out and written too. that's given me something to think about for a while!

Thanks for an excellent editorial, Maya.

There has been some discussion in the thread about whether the sword was in Dumbledore's office prior to CoS. There seems to be no evidence in canon that it was. However, there is fairly strong canon evidence that Dumbledore at least knew about the sword prior to its emergence in CoS. From the second-to-last chapter:

"It is our choices, Harry, that show us what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Harry sat motionless in his chair, stunned. "If you want proof, Harry, that you belong in Gryffindor, I suggest you look more closely at this."

Dumbledore reached across to Professor McGonagall's desk, picked up the blood-stained silver sword, and handed it to Harry. Dully, Harry turned it over, the rubies blazing in the firelight. And then he saw the name engraved just below the hit.

Godric Gryffindor

"Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out fo the hat, Harry," said Dumbledore simply.

Harry had to turn over the sword to read its name--but Dumbledore already knows what it says! Whether or not the sword was in Dumbledore's office before, it was clearly familiar to him--which means we can be sure the sword was in the wizarding world, not just in the hat. We have that from canon. So it's at least possible that Voldemort knew about the sword; we can rule out the possibility that the sword had been in the hat for a millenium.

Here's a thought: perhaps the 4 founders enchanted the sorting hat in a manner that it would give the headmaster or any student using it acces to a weapon in times of need... No matter where the object would be, it would come to the aid of hogwarts... In Griffindors case, the sword, but what if voldemorts other Horcruxes like the cup and the locket were enchanted in the same manner? I think it's safe to state, that with the former headmaster murdered and the second war going, Hogwarts is in some danger, so perhaps all it would take for Harry to get the founders Horcruxes is ask his friends, perhaps Luna for Ravenclaw and Ernie McMillan or something for Hufflepuff and who knows, Draco for slytherin? to put on the sorting hat and think very hard, help I need a weapon? Voldemort wouldn't know about it because it's probably the first time it happened with the sword...µ
But that would probably be to easy right...

But I think they can be found and destroyed out of order also. Dumbledore found and destroyed the ring Horcrux without any key. Maybe if he had another Horcrux with him, he could have gotten to the Horcrux without getting burned.

To clarify: I was only suggesting that the Founders' objects were involved in the "key" system. The text strongly indicates that the diary and ring were made into Horcruxes before Tom even got the idea to use four Founders' objects for his final four Horcruxes.

Since it was outside the system, the ring was like insurance in the unlikely event someone did find out about the Founder Horcruxes, and vice versa. (Keep in mind that the protections on the ring were almost enough to kill Dumbledore, so they must have been pretty darn good.)


I like the concept, but I have't seen hints that this is the case yet (except maybe for the locked locket at 12 Grimmauld Place which seemed to require a key).

The locket probably does require something special to open it (Parseltongue's a good guess), but that's another thing I consider outside the scope of this theory since I'm guessing that the locket was at the end of the sequence and was therefore not a key to anything itself. (It's possible that the locket wasn't at the end, though, if anyone really wants to argue the point.)


The reason V killed Amelia Bones. There has to be more to that then filler.

Absolutely-- five different characters commented on her death within the first four chapters of HBP. It's gotta mean something.


A brilliant reason for Florean Fortescues kidnap which just liek Bones and Olivander I cant imagine being a minor plot detail or filler.

I've been thinking more about Fortescue lately, and I'm on the edge of a short and highly speculative theory about him that could better flesh out how he fits with the rest of this idea. Once I get a chance to type it up, I'll post it or a link to it in this thread.


Ive never been compelled to register and post by an editorial before.

That's really flattering, since I remember how long it took for me to register. (Ha ha! Now I'm the one sucking people in!)


Jo has hevily hinted in some of her interviews that Dumbledore is a direct descendent of Godric Griffyndor.

Do you have quotes? Quotes would be helpful. It's not that I think it's impossible for Dumbledore to be a Gryffindor descendant, it's just that I've seen too many people attribute ideas to JKR that don't quite match what she's actually said.


The interlocking Horcrux key theory seems more like Ravenclaw type of brilliance. The appeal to it is that it is so smart.

Rather than just killing intruders straight off, Voldemort built a puzzle around the locket. The whole thing was designed to allow a very smart & skilled wizard get to the island-- presumably just so Voldemort could have the satisfaction of knowing he was ultimately smarter.

Where's the fun in being an evil overlord who thinks he's smarter and better than everyone else if he never proves it?


The only thing that I could think of as to why this theory may not make sense is Dumbledore's comment in CoS that only a true Gryffindor could weild the sword.

He actually said that only a true Gryffindor could've pulled the sword from the hat. That's quite a bit different.


When Harry and Dumbledore go back and watch the interview between Voldemort and Dumbledore, I'm sure that the sword is in the office then and Dumbledore tells Harry that he suspects that Voldermort had wanted the sword for his own means and Voldemort wasn't given the job.

The sword isn't there, or at least isn't mentioned (and like I said earlier-- if JKR's story is that Dumbledore always had the sword, why not mention it?).

The conversation Harry and Dumbledore actually had about the interview and Horcruxes went like this:

"Do you think that's why he really wanted to come back to Hogwarts, sir?" said Harry. "To try and find something from one of the other founders?"

"My thoughts precisely," said Dumbledore. "But unfortunately, that does not advance us much further, for he was turned away, or so I believe, without the chance to search the school." [HBP, ch 23]

So: 1) They definitely don't say Voldemort was specifically after the sword. 2) If the sword was right in Voldemort's line of sight (on the shelf behind Dumbledore like it is later), Harry and Dumbledore were working awfully hard to talk around it.


However, needing one horcrux to get to the next would mean that Voldemort would need to remove all his horcruxes at once. This would make them very vulnerable, and it does not seem like something he would do.

Actually, he would only ever need two at a time. And that's only out of the Founders' items. The ring and diary are completely separate. That means only 1/3 of his Horcruxes would ever have to be "unlocked." Sure, the guy likes the idea of having 6 Horcruxes, but he knows he really only needs one to keep him from dying. If he was so panicked about always having 6 Horcruxes and constantly keeping all 6 perfectly safe and locked away, he wouldn't have made a Horcrux to use as a weapon (risking its destruction) or waited 30+ years to complete his set of six.


You seem to have fallen victim to the curse of overanalysis.

If you knew me better, you would realize that this is Overanalysis Level 3, Level 4 tops. I go to 11. ;)

Seriously, though. When it comes to what constitutes overanalyzing, we have to keep it in context. We all know that there are people out there who are trying to do stuff like figure out the last sentence of Book 7 by anagramming every seventh word in the Sorting Hat songs. (And more power to them if it makes them happy and they remember to go outside once in a while.) Whether you think it's wrong or right, that's not what my theory is.

If using facts in the books to try to figure out a mystery that actually affects the plot is too much analysis, what's the point of this editorials section? Come up with theories and don't thoroughly analyze them to see if they're consistent with canon?

Why not just admit we're geeks for being here in the first place and get on with the geeking? It's more fun that way.


A much more likely way for Voldemort to check the locket: he commands the Inferi in the lake to fetch it for him. They can drink the potion without any ill affects since they are already dead.

See my previous response post in this thread-- if Voldemort can have someone else drink the potion for him, he should've realized that anyone else could do the same. Dumbledore and Harry exploited an unintentional weakness in the system.

Additionally, Voldemort must've had a reason to hide the locket in a basin full of potion that you have to drink to empty. That kind of idea doesn't come out of nowhere. (And, no, it's not because Slytherins are associated with the water element. Voldemort doesn't know that.)


On the matter of the sword, I believe that the first time it reappeared was when Harry pulled it out of the sorting hat. There is no evidence of it belonging to Dumbledore, and I don't think the sorting hat can act like a vanishing cabinet, or make random objects disappear from anywhere to reappear inside it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at... After all, the sword did appear in the hat. Whether this was a function of the hat's, the sword's, or Gryffindor's magic, first it wasn't physically in the hat, and then it was. Clearly this is something that can happen.

Since the sword obviously was out in the world during Gryffindor's time, it wasn't always in the hat. If, as you suggest, the sword couldn't disappear from somewhere in the world to reappear inside the hat and Dumbledore didn't put the sword in the hat... How was the sword in the hat? Did Gryffindor, on his death bed, say, "To heck with the other Founders and their silly tradition of leaving their prized belongings to their loved ones! I'm putting my sword in this hat!"?


I just can't agree with a theory that has no solid (as opposed to speculative) evidence.

Okay, fine. For everyone who likes to go on about the speculation involved (I clearly said "guesswork thickets" in the editorial, did I not?) I propose a proper experiment.

Question: How did Voldemort protect his Horcruxes so that only he could access them?

Background Information: See the Harry Potter series, books 1-6. See also JKRowling.com (http://www.jkrowling.com), Quidditch Through the Ages, etc.

Hypothesis: See editorial (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-maya03.shtml).

Experiment: Wait approximately one year for the release of Book 7. Read book, and analyze data to see if hypothesis is falsifiable.

Control: Hardy Boys #7: The Secret of the Caves


If any of us could prove our ideas right now, JKR wouldn't be much of a mystery writer, would she? So we can either have some fun and use our best logic with the clues we have, or sit around twiddling our thumbs and trying very hard not to have imaginations.

You know my vote.


Maybe he's not as faithful a Death Eater as we all thought. Or maybe Voldemort's playing his cards a little too close to the vest. But Lucius Malfoy saw that sword. It was lying on Dumbledore's desk (covered in basilisk spit and blood, but still obviously a large silver sword decked in rubies. And the engraved name - Godric Gryffindor - was turned to the top for Harry to see) when he stormed in at the end of Chamber of Secrets. Right under his patrician nose.

Um... Sorry to have to say this, but you seem to be thinking of the movie.

The scene in the book was set in McGonagall's office, for starters. Which would make it McGonagall's desk. And the last place the sword is seen before Lucius' entrance is not on the desk.

In fact-- has anyone else gone back and reread that section to figure out the staging? Because the sword just kind of disappears from the narration.

Harry was sitting in a chair by the fire, and Dumbledore handed him the sword. Harry looked at it, then got up to leave-- it doesn't seem that Harry had the sword at that point, but we don't know what he did with it. We never heard about it again for the rest of the book. (It actually seems like he might not have set it back on the desk, though, since Dumbledore was sitting there writing a letter.)

So Lucius may or may not have seen the sword. Staging aside, he was in quite a huff, so he may not have noticed it even if it was out in the open. Neither Dumbledore nor Harry was holding it when Lucius came in, so there was no particular reason for his brain to go, "Oh! This is an important and relevant detail for me to memorize and report back to the Dark Lord even though I've basically given up hope of his ever returning."

As for the engraving-- the movie sword was pretty and all, but it obviously wasn't an exact replica of the one described in the book (where were the egg-sized rubies? (http://www.noblecollection.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=NN7198&catid=21)).

Here's the passage where Dumbledore showed Harry who the sword belonged to:

"If you want proof, Harry, that you belong in Gryffindor, I suggest you look more closely at this."

Dumbledore reached across to Professor McGonagall's desk, picked up the blood-stained silver sword, and handed it to Harry. Dully, Harry turned it over, the rubies blazing in the firelight. And then he saw the name engraved just below the hilt.

Godric Gryffindor. [CoS, ch 18]


When I read the book, I never got the impression that "GODRIC GRYFFINDOR" was engraved in 30 pt type down the blade. Y'know, given that Harry had to look closely at it and the use of a phrase like "just below the hilt" which seems to indicate the smallish area where they usually put a sword's maker's mark. (And is less descriptive than something like "in large letters running down the blade," if that's where the name actually was.) Was that just me, then? Maybe it was.


Why did he not tell Voldemort?

I'm not going to pretend I know what happened, but since there's reason to think that Lucius never even saw the sword I'm not going to worry too much about working the theory around his seeing it. That would be like spending a lot of time explaining away the sword being in Dumbledore's office before PoA when the books never said it was.


Did Voldie not ask the DEs if anyone had seen Gryffindor's sword lying around? Maybe that would have been too much information for people he never truly trusted.

I think it would've been. I believed Dumbledore when he said that the DEs were essentially clueless about the whole thing. Plus, it wouldn't really be a logical method of investigation-- why would Voldemort think that any of them had randomly come across the exact thing he was looking for?


Or maybe, after all, Voldemort doesn't need Gryffindor's sword for a key.

If anyone really hates the idea that Voldemort ever got the sword, you can work this whole theory assuming that there is actually an alternate unknown Gryffindor artifact that was meant to be a key. I think it's a less tidy solution, but maybe you like things messier than I do.


More responses next post.

QueenZigs, interesting about only the 4 founders' items being keys. I did not gather that from reading the editorial initially. Thanks for clarifying here. That certainly seems plausible, if, as you say, Voldemort had access to 4 founders' items.

How do you think Dumbledore knew the sword was Gryffindor's if the engraving was so small? Because Dumbledore had seen it before? I'm just curious because it sounds as if you think it was not in Dumbledore's office prior to this event. Is that right?

Excellent theory- horcruxes being keys to others is a brilliant and logical idea. You also picked up on things that completly bipassed me like Florean Fortescue.

One point to make and forgive me if i missundestood what you were saying, but you said Voldemort wanted the Sword to become a Horcrux to replace the Diary Horcrux.

The sword would have become his SEVENTH horcrux and would have meant his soul was in EIEGHT pieces not 7. Seeing as Voldemoert was desperate for a seven part soul i dont think he would have replaced the destroyed diary. This also explains his anger when he discovers the loss of the Diary(if he was intending to replace it with the sword why would he be so angry??)

I think its a great editorial i just question whether he would replace the Diary as an 8 part soul is not as strong as a seven part soul. Just something to think about....

About the sword... read a scene from GoF today in which Harry goes to tell Dumbledore about a dream he had. He's left alone and this is when he finds the pensieve. However, the way he finds it is by light gleaming off Gryffindor's sword, which Harry remarks that he remembers when he "pulled it out of the hat" in his 2nd year - so, again, there is the phrase of pulling it out of the hat which is, of course, what happened, but is it suggesting that it was there all the time? I remember the hat "squeezing" and then the sword dropping onto Harry's head - though, in my opinion, this could indicate the sword was sent via the hat, meaning it was elsewhere prior to Harry calling for it.

Just a few quick responses tonight... As much as I'm eager to get to the questions at the end of the thread, I'm also so hot & tired that I feel like I could melt. Ew.

I'm not quite sure where the sword Harry pulled out of the hat was before the Chamber of Secrets, but if Dumbledore can vouch with such certainty that Voldemort never had access to it, it means he knew of its whereabouts somehow even before then.

While Dumbledore may or may not have known where the sword was before Harry pulled it out of the hat, he didn't actually claim that Voldemort never had access to it. From HBP, chapter 23:

"I cannot answer for whether he ever managed to find anything of Ravenclaw's. I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe."

Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case.

He said the sword "remains safe"--i.e., is not a Horcrux and does not currently belong to Voldemort. He doesn't say anything to account for its previous whereabouts or the possibility that Voldemort could've gotten his hands on it sometime before Godric's Hollow.

I think the most interesting option is that Dumbledore is the heir of Gryffindor; I don't see Rowling killing off the line of Gryffindor while allowing Slytherin to continue.

Um... even if Albus Dumbledore was a Gryffindor descendant, the line of Gryffindor hasn't been killed off. His brother Aberforth Dumbledore is still alive.

But another question is, what will happen to the sword now that Dumbledore is dead (if he is)?

He's definitely dead, so:

The sword could stay in the Headmaster's office.
The sword could go back to the Gryffindor descendants who owned it before (though even if there are still living Gryffindor descendants, they may have basically given the sword over to Dumbledore for the greater good).
The sword could go to Harry, since he's the one who pulled it out of the hat in the first place.
The sword could go to Aberforth, since he's Dumbledore's only known relative.
The sword could be stolen, or otherwise vanish (temporarily, of course).

Anyone else have other possibilities to add to this list?


The only part I don't agree with in this editorial is Voldemort's targeting of Amelia Bones. I think it was simply because she was a very talented witch in charge of the Magical Law Enforcement department. As a terrorist on the loose, Voldemort would naturally want to eliminate her, and I doubt he could trust a hit squad of Death Eaters to manage it for him.

But she put up quite a fight, remember? If Voldemort just wanted her dead, he would have hit her with an Avada Kedavra right after he surprised her by being able to get into her house in the first place. A flash of light and she's dead. I know Amelia was talented, but was she more talented than Dumbledore? Because he needed the Statue of Magical Brethren and his pet phoenix to fend off Voldemort's AKs in the Ministry, and I doubt Amelia had those things available to her in her sitting room. I think the only reason Amelia would've had time to put up a big fight was if Voldemort didn't want her dead immediately, implying there was more to it than "eliminating" her.


One of the problems with the interlocking horcrux theory is that since we haven't seen any evidence of it for three of the horcruxes, then it seems unlikely that it would exist for the rest of them.

See, I would contend that seeing evidence of it for one Founder Horcrux (cup as key to locket in basin) makes it somewhat likely that we'll eventually see that evidence as part of a larger Founder Horcrux pattern. Probability is completely skewed here, because this is art rather than science.

At this point in the series, JKR has little incentive to include story elements that don't ultimately snap together like the pieces in a jigsaw puzzle. Just 'cause we're missing some puzzle pieces right now doesn't mean that the blue piece with the cloudy bits isn't likely to be part of the sky in the completed picture. :)

(Excuse the analogy, but like I said: I'm tired. That, and I seem to have a bizarre habit of relating Harry Potter to board games (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-maya02.shtml). I do it surprisingly often.)

1. The sword could stay in the Headmaster's office.
2. The sword could go back to the Gryffindor descendants who owned it before (though even if there are still living Gryffindor descendants, they may have basically given the sword over to Dumbledore for the greater good).
3. The sword could go to Harry, since he's the one who pulled it out of the hat in the first place.
4. The sword could go to Aberforth, since he's Dumbledore's only known relative.
5. The sword could be stolen, or otherwise vanish (temporarily, of course).

Anyone else have other possibilities to add to this list?
Not necessarily "add" but I think another reason it might go to Harry is because Dumbledore wills it to him. I think it fitting that it be used in the fight against V.

I think the sword could have been secreted in the hat all along and only a few have pulled it out when needed? Maybe Albus used it against Grindlewold (or however his name is spelt) and so knew about it being in the hat? I also have the impression that only heirs (and descendants) of Gryffindor could get their hands on the sword when needed and so this rules out Voldie as I think Gryffindore bewtiched his sword to protect it from the likes of people like Voldie and Grindletc.
I also think that our missing wandmaker, who had a very old wand on a cushion in the window of his shop, could have disappeared because peerhaps the wand was Rowena Ravenclaw's and Voldie wanted it? Maybe Voldie has kidnapped him or maybe the order is hiding him - that I don't know. Anyway this is all speculation and until book 7 comes out only JK knows the correct answers to all these questions we are all pondering on.

Interesting idea about Gryffindor bewitching the sword to only come out for Gryffindors. That would also be a nod to King Arthur and the Sword in the Stone, would it not? Also, interesting is that it came to Dumbledore's aid against Grindelwald.

I don't really know if Albus did use against Grindlewald that was just speculation on my part but I do like the King Arthur nod and it would be just like JK to use something like that - remember she was into the classics etc and has drawn on then quite a bit for inspiration. I'd also like to think that that Albus would have had occaision to use the sword as he did know why and how it would appear so by all accounts must have had some experience with the sword in the past.

Yes, either Dumbledore is just intelligent enough to figure out quickly who the sword belongs to or he's had some experience/exposure to it before. I have no doubt that Dumbledore is extremely intelligent and quick; yet I don't think that rules out the possibility of Dumbledore having seen or used the sword previously. And Dumbledore would not have told Harry about it then either as Dumbledore was still trying to shield Harry.

Continuing on, with a "better late than never" philosophy:

Amelia could definitely have been there, but i have this uncanny feeling that she was killed because she could have been a Hufflepuff descendent.

I know that idea comes up a lot, and obviously can't be disproven. But there are problems with it:

1) If Amelia was a Hufflepuff descendant, she wasn't the only one. Amelia's parents had other children, and at least one of them had their own child: Susan Bones. I don't think it's been said or implied that either of Susan's parents are dead, so that means Susan and one parent would be descended from anyone Amelia was descended from. Voldemort would still need to have a more specific reason to attack Amelia.

2) We've already seen another Hufflepuff-descended family: the Smiths. Having two Hufflepuff-descendant families isn't unlikely genepool-wise, but is a little muddled plot-wise. And it does seem that even if there are two branches of the Hufflepuff family tree, one would've inherited the Hufflepuff relic while the other didn't. (Unless there are two Hufflepuff relics, but that really seems like it would be stretching things-- both a second relic existing, and Voldemort wanting two Hufflepuff relics. Even though Godric is typically played off as Salazar's opposite, Helga was really the one to have the worldview most blatantly contrary to Slytherin's.)

3) Amelia was described as "middle-aged" by the Prime Minister. Granted, wizards live longer than Muggles. But they do still show their age, so his estimate can't be too far off. That means Amelia would've been fairly young at the time the cup was stolen. Is it likely she has special knowledge of it that any other easier-to-attack Bones family member wouldn't have?

4) Voldemort already had Hufflepuff's cup-- we're sure of that. If he hid the cup properly, none of the Hufflepuff descendants know it's current whereabouts. (That idea's supported by the fact that Dumbledore couldn't find any trace of what happened to the cup after Tom got it.) Clearly the descendants weren't aware of the nature of the cup's powers (see Hepzibah). He couldn't have needed a Hufflepuff descendant to make the cup's powers work, either, or he would've kidnapped Amelia rather than killing her. So why does he need any more information from Hufflepuff's descendants?

Just as Fortesque and Ollivander could have been Gryffindor and Ravenclaw descendents, and maybe they could know something about relics.

It's a lot simpler for Ollivander's disappearance to be related to the whole "Priori Incantatem" thing, I think.

Fortescue, I'll give you. The more I think about Fortescue, the more I suspect that he is the almost inevitable Gryffindor descendant. But like I said previously, that line of thinking is something I'll have to post a link to here once I actually have time to write it up. (And you can guess how I'm doing on time based on the frequency of my posting here...)

I just don't know if all that would tie together so nicely. But then again, things tend to come together in books much more so than in real life, so you never know.

Like how Harry just happened to receive the Marauder's Map in the same year all of the living Marauders turned back up at the school? I think we should count on things tying together nicely. It's what always happens in these stories. (And, personally, it's part of why I like them.)


I'm pretty sure that the sword was in the hat. Harry pulled the sword out of the hat, not from somewhere through the hat. The hat has many special attributes, but nothing suggests transportation is one of them.

Yeah, here's the thing about that line of reasoning...

The sword may have figuratively been "in the hat" the whole time, but it wasn't literally in the hat the whole time. Look at the text:

The snake's tail whipped across the floor again. Harry ducked. Something soft hit his face.

The basilisk had swept the Sorting Hat into Harry's arms. Harry seized it. It was all he had left, his only chance-- He rammed it onto his head and threw himself flat onto the floor as the basilisk's tail swung over him again.

Help me-- help me-- Harry thought, his eyes screwed tight under the hat. Please help me--

There was no answering voice. Instead, the hat contracted, as though an invisible hand was squeezing it very tightly.

Something very hard and heavy thudded onto the top of Harry's head, almost knocking him out. Stars winking in front of his eyes, he grabbed the top of the hat to pull it off and felt something long and hard beneath it.

A gleaming silver sword had appeared inside the hat, its handle glittering with rubies the size of eggs. (CoS, ch. 17)

Clearly the sword wasn't physically in the hat the whole time. The hat wouldn't have been floppy, and Harry and other kids would've felt the handle smack 'em on the head before that. (And it's really dangerous to be shoving a hat loaded down with weaponry on hundreds of students' heads in the first place.)

Something happens when Harry feels what seems like a hand squeezing the hat (Tarot, anyone? (http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/xr/swac.htm)), and then the sword does physically appear in the hat.

So either:
1) The hat/sword/Godric's powers brought the sword into the hat from somewhere else, OR
2) The sword was in some kind of magic "hat-space" that allowed it to be "in the hat" without actually being in the hat, and the hat/sword/Godric's powers brought the sword from hat-space into the actual hat.

Both versions actually require a transportation power to be involved-- real-world to real-world or hat-space to real-world. To me, the hat-space idea actually seems like the more complicated of the two (especially when you take into account explaining why the sword was put there in the first place, instead of staying in the real world like the other Founders' relics).

Also, Dumbledore does not say "Only a true Gryffindor could have caused the hat to bring them that sword." He says "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat.

See above comments. And besides that, "pulled that out of the hat" is a cute play on an old magician's trick. "Caused the hat to bring them that sword" is not. If I were the wordplay-loving author, I'd have to go with the cute option. (It's still accurate, too. If you can't get the sword to appear in the hat, you can't pull the sword out of the hat.)


Well, Voldemort being Voldemort, maybe he assumed that there would be no one who could get to the horcruxes without the previous key. If that was the case, then if he knew that the first key horcrux was safe, he would simply assume that they were all safe.

Along that same line: I've seen people wondering why Voldemort didn't make someone a Secret Keeper for the location of his Horcruxes. Since we know the status of a secret stays the same once a Secret Keeper dies, Voldemort could immediately kill the Secret Keeper and know his Horcruxes were safe forever.

So with the key theory, Voldemort could use that technique to make just the hiding place of the sword secret. That would permanently protect one Horcrux, and protect 3 more by default.

(This isn't an official part of my theory, by the way. But it is possible, and I was honestly surprised no one on this thread jumped to that idea.)


I mean, Voldemort's the only living person with the ability to talk to snakes, and the last one ever, right?

We do know that it's a "very rare gift." Diary-Tom says that he and Harry were "Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself."

In HBP, though, Dumbledore says speaking Parseltongue is "a rare ability, and one supposedly connected with the Dark Arts, although as we know, there are Parselmouths among the great and the good too."

So even if we believe Tom about the number of Parselmouths who've attended Hogwarts, it doesn't really prove that there aren't other Parselmouths around. Or at the very least that there aren't "good" families that the trait could still be passed down through.

Yet JKR made the 3 deaths (if you add in Olivander) clear enough, that you might remember one, and if it says in book 7 (Harry Potter and the Punch Bowl of Doom, yes that would be great) "Olivander, Florean Fortescue, and Amelia Bones were killed by Voldemort because..."

Just to keep our facts clear, since these three keep showing up in the conversation: Amelia Bones was killed by Voldemort, Florean Fortescue was kidnapped by Death Eaters, and Ollivander disappeared with no sign of a struggle.

So they might all have been killed, but we're not sure about Fortescue or Ollivander yet.

And I don't think Dumbledore was wrong about anything he told Harry pertaining to Voldemort's Horcruxes.

I think Dumbledore's continual reminders to Harry that this was guesswork were hints that he's probably wrong about something. On top of that, JKR said in the Mugglenet/Leaky interview (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview3.shtml), "Harry now knows-- well he believe he knows-- what he's facing. Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark." That really, really strongly suggests that Dumbledore's guess wasn't completely accurate.

That's another reason I prefer the key theory to Horcrux theories that require Dumbledore to be wrong about almost everything. I think JKR's saying Dumbledore made a mistake with his Horcrux speculation, but not a huge one. Not realizing that the sword was an almost-Horcrux and part of a key system is about the smallest mistake Dumbledore could have made, and is completely understandable considering he found out about the basin protection just before he died. There wasn't much time to process that information and realize it could be part of a bigger pattern.


But I do think that Dumbledore knew that the sword could be transported (or whatever you want to call it) from the hat, otherwise how would have the Fawks known to bring the hat to Harry?

It definitely seems like Dumbledore knew something. Before he leaves the school in CoS, he makes a point of saying two things within earshot of invisible Harry and Ron: "However, you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it."

Showing loyalty is what calls Fawkes to the Chamber, and asking for help is what brings the sword. Did Dumbledore know exactly what would happen when Harry put on the hat and asked for help, did he have a good but unproven guess, or was that just another of his tidbits of general wisdom that turned out to be conveniently relevant to the end of the story? Did Dumbledore tell Fawkes to bring the hat, did Fawkes decide on his own, or did the hat ask to be brought to Harry? Your guesses are as good as mine.

And while I'm on this general topic... The fact that Fawkes brought the hat and not the sword really makes me doubt that the sword was just sitting around in Dumbledore's office before that. Because if the sword was there, why not bring the sword directly to Harry? Why add the extra step of delivering the hat and making Harry desperately beg for help? Was Fawkes (or Dumbledore via Fawkes) just messing with Harry? Testing him? Seems unnecessary and cruel-- especially after the show of loyalty.


THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE SWORD UNTIL AFTER HARRY PULLS IT FROM THE HAT! (sorry, I had to get that out of my system.) How could Voldemort have used the sword if it didn't appear until the end of Harry's second year?

Before I can believe this horcrux key theory, prove to me how Voldemort could have gotten access to the sword.

Okay, I'm sure I've been over this a few times now... But since the concept seems to upset you so deeply for some reason, I'm going to try saying this one more time as simply as I can.

The sword used to be out in the real world, back when Gryffindor was alive. Later, it appeared in the hat. The sword was fair game for Voldemort or anyone else between those two points in time.

The only way that it would have been impossible for Voldemort to have accessed the sword during the in-between time is if the sword was removed from the real world before Voldemort ever had the chance to go looking for it. So unless you can prove that Gryffindor died walking through the Veil while carrying his sword (for example), you really ought to calm down where "proof" is concerned.


my brain hurts trying to process all of this!

I had to create a rough timeline just to get the whole sequence of events straight in my head before I could even start writing the editorial! I dug it out and posted it here (http://queenzigs.livejournal.com/10366.html)-- maybe it'll help you process?


Remember, Voldemort does not believe anyone (DE, Order member, pizza-delivery owl) knows about his horcruxes (plural) in any significant detail. As he touts himself the greatest sorcerer ever, does he really anticipate anyone a) deducing his multiple horcruxes, b) realizing their significance in defeating him, or c) having the temerity to seek them out, let alone destroy them?

All that, plus he believed the prophecy. That means he thought killing baby Harry would destroy the only person with a real chance to take him down.

Additionally, perhaps I've missed something, but I never got the impression that a horcrux has to be "used" in some way. The fact that it exists, encasing a portion of the soul, is what keeps the creator's body alive, whether corporeal, vapor, or otherwise.

You're right, they don't need to be used. If they did, Slughorn wouldn't have been so shocked at Tom's suggestion that it might be better to make more than one. It would still have been an evil suggestion, sure, but only logical in context.

Ok I have to admit that at first this whole theory had flown right past my brain. Once I started reading this editorial it sort of started tying up some loose ends that before had given me a really bad headache. Now, as much as I hate to say this, this whole idea could be totally wrong or you can possibly be stunningly correct. Regardless of the true outcome, this seems to be very well thought out because it makes a whole lot of sense. I would love to write about what I think including details and maybe a few examples from the books but, I don’t have them available at this moment and I hardly remember all the nitty-gritty details. So I’ll do my best and if I make a wrong statement, forgive me but I don’t have my resources on hand.

First, I agree with everything QueenZigs wrote. Voldemort underestimates the abilities of other wizards (i.e. Dumbledore and Harry) therefore his reasoning of everything leaves a wide open space for flaws (lucky for Harry right?) Voldemort doesn’t understand what it fells to love and trust or even the simplest things like working as a team. What’s more, I think that he believes deep down every wizard and witch is like him but they are just too afraid to show their true colors. Not to say that he believes everybody is as powerful as he is because he certainly believes to be the greatest wizard who has ever lived. But he thinks every body wants the same things he wants, power, they are just too weak to get it. He doesn’t put himself in the mindset of others in order to better protect his oh-so valuable horcruxes, and that’s what is ultimately going to destroy him. Anyway I don’t want to get into a character analysis of him…so let’s just say Harry will have to think out of the box, or put himself in Voldemort’s mindset, which shouldn’t be very hard, in order to get the remaining horcruxes.

By the way the theory about the keys is something very ingenious, it might actually be true because it would make a lot more sense than just making horcruxes and not making it as hard as possible for them to be destroyed, after all they do contain a part of his soul.

OH, I think this is an extremely well thought out theory. Good job, good connections with Bones, that definetly made sense for me. But, as with any theory, you have to let it percolate in your head for awhile.

i read this theory and evrything made sense it was brilliantly written and researched i even recomended it on the harrypotter forum on flickr.com go to:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/harrypotter/discuss/72157594474784246/
read our theories and check out the other threads as well.
Again i congratulate the author of this editorial

Queen Zigs- Just a thought about "The Sword in the Hat" business.
It seems to me that if the legend of the Chamber started back in the time of the Founders, they would have tried to find it. When they failed, and recognized that Slytherin had purposely left a danger to the students in the school, I would think they would do what they could to help the people who would eventuallyy face it. So to counter, or even one up Slytherin, Gryfindor offers his own sword as a weapon against Slytherin's monster, to whomever must face it. Just as Slytherin reaches out from his grave to strike, Gryfindor reaches out to defend.

The Founders would presumably pass along to the subsequent Headmasters at least whatever they knew or had done with regard to the Chamber. This would perhaps include a description of the sword ("You shall know it by...")Since the Founders made Gryfindor's hat the Sorting Hat, and its function would presumably remain into the indefinite future, and they would expect it would be the Headmaster or some other teacher who would confront the Monster, having the Sword safely hidden in the Sorting Hat, easily available to the Headmaster, would make perfect sense.

When Dumbledore was forced to leave by the Governors while the Chamber was opened, Dumbledore would be in the position to tell Fawkes to take the Hat to whomever needed his help. Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore allows Fawkes to lock in on him, and so he brings him the Sorting Hat on Dumbledore's orders. This saves Fawkes needing a link to Gryfindor himself, and or understanding the purpose of the Hat.

On this view, the Sword cannot be a horcrux because it had been in the Hat, in some magical sense, since before Riddle was at Hogwarts.

Your mention of Fortesque reminds me of something of less relevance. Fortesque is in Ice Creme. Slughorn tells Dumbledore when Harry first meets him, that a freezing charm gets him around Muggle alarm systems. We know at least one Muggle junior Minister has been magically attacked. Perhaps it was Voldemort's desire to go after relatively secure Muggles which aroused the Deatheater's interest in Fortesque.

Fabulous editorial !! the best at this date I read!!
This would be so easier to Voldemort : instead of watching 4 horcruxes he would only have to watch the sword. And a sword is easy to carry, no need to hide it, he likes to make his show.

Well we were told about Slytherin heir, Hufflepuff Heirin... Because Voldemort meet them. I like the way he hid himself, waiting patiently to have news from heirlooms and relics for his horcruxes in Borgin and Burkes. A bit like Wormtail at the Wesley's, waiting for Voldemort to come back.
"Till next time..."
What about Griffindor's and Ravenclaw??
I'm imagining an horrible theory : Lily told by Dumbledore to marry James only to have a baby to fight Dumbledore while she was in love with Snape :)
Their are many candidats, but, we only care about those who had relics... Maybe Voldemort swore to find them all, but Harry didnt, so this might not be that important.

Unless the Sword was in possession of James Potter. It is said he inherited a big fortune and a valuable Cape of Invisibility. If the gold went to Harry (only because Dumbledore had the key...) The items went to James Potter. He didnt buy it because he already had it in Hogwarts.
Maybe the Sword came with. We all probably suspect Harry (and Dumbledore) to be Griffindor's heir and Fumseck to be Griffondor's Pet (he brought the Hat). What happens in the CoS is Griffindor's strategy, not Dumbledore's.
Another thing bumped in my head as I was sleeping. I read somewhere that Voldemort might have created another horcruxe with his wand. Why? Because it's his wand, and for him, it's the wand of the greatest wizard ever... But tonight I remembered when he found his wand in his pocket in H&GOF. And it makes me think of the Sorting Hat : does is cape have the same power? To Apparate his wand? Something like "Only the true Voldemort could have pulled out this wand from this cape?" If not, why did the ministry leave the wand in Godric's Hollow?Godric's Hollow might be for the Potter family the equivalent to Grimmauld Place for the Black, and The Burrow for the Weasley, and the manor of the Malfoys... And might contain or have contained a lot of interresting stuff...
I think that the only reason why Voldemort wanted the Potters to join him (and it's probably the only reason he likes "pure-bloods" so much...) and why it's said James Potter resisted him so much. He found the Blade in Godric's Hollow, killed James Potter, and with the Blade in one hand, and his wand in the other one, went to Harry to make his last Horcruxe ! But Lily sacrified herself. Then, the Blade and the Wand vanished, one back in the Hat, the other back in the Cape.
"Till next time..."


Maybe the heir's of Griffindor is only the best pupil in Hogwarts. That's why the Sorting hat's got so much importance. Who's better than Harry in Hogwarts? That puts to light what Dumbledore said once to Harry : the difference between Voldemort and Harry, is that Harry choose Griffindor and Voldemort choose Slytherin. That might be why the Hat talk so much to Harry. To challenge him. It seems that the pupils that are in Griffindor wanted to be there. This is probably what drive them to griffindor, if not Neville wouldnt be griffindor. So this is another difference between Griffindor and Slyterin : Griffindor's heir won't be bad, because they choose their house. That what makes them the only ones to be able to get the sword which will kill the Snake. Slytherins will get the sciences that give them the power, but only the true heir, who will be parselmouth, will open the Chamber.
"Till next time..."

About the horcruxes : I think this can help to find the 2 missing horcruxes.
Slytherin is water and under the earth : in a cave surrounded by water guarded by inferis (Evil)
Hufflepuff is earth and under the earth : burried ? guarded by Giants (Earth)
Griffindor is fire and in the sky : failed
Ravenclaw is aire and in the sky : in the aire? guarded by Dementors (Spirit)
I know it's a bit old fashioned and over discussed :)



Funny that we have to find the last riddle of ... the last Riddle :)


When Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow, he needed one more Horcruxe. He heard that the diary was destroyed. So, he needed 2 more Horcruxes. He might have transformed his wand into one, instead of the sword, because it seems he abandonned his obsession with relics.

In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if Harry killed Voldemort with the sword :) and Fumseck ate Nagini for breackfast. I wouldnt be surprised if Percy Weasley was under a Imperius Curse.
Also, who chooses Hogwarts director? Is it the Sorting Hat? Because they will have to find a new director.

In fact, it's only the last Chapter of a war that last for 1000 years. The 3 other founders left the Sorting Hat in the Castle to defeat the Heir of Slytherin when he comes to claim the power. That's why only a true Griffindor can get the sword : because Griffindors will never get to Slytherin's side.



I would like to know, when Dumbledore says he wished people offered him socks... Is he thinking of the elves? Does that mean he wants to be freed from his responsabilities?
And I really want to know what makes you think Fortescue is last Griffindor's heir. Is that another rabbit from your Hat?

On this view, the Sword cannot be a horcrux because it had been in the Hat, in some magical sense, since before Riddle was at Hogwarts.



Do we know that for sure? Maybe James/Lily were just hiding the sword so it couldn't be used as a horcrux?

Liselle- No, we don't know that for sure. But I am trying to put the sword in a context where we can explain what little we do know about it.

We know that it appears from the Hat when Harry needed it to fight the Basilisk.
We (think we) know that Fawkes came to Harry's aid because of his loyalty to Dumbledore, not because of anythinig about the Chamber.
We don't know why Fawkes brought Harry the Hat, or why the sword was in it.

I guess on either view, Dumbledore told Fawkes to take the Hat to whomever needed his aid while he was removed as Headmaster. (Fawkes doesn't need to know anything about the sword.)
On your suggestion, Dumbledore put the sword in the Hat before he left, because it made it easier for Fawkes to carry? Keep it hidden till it was really needed?

I like my version better because it shows the Founders to not only be active and creative in trying defeat Slytherin's attempt to get around them, but also that together they could outsmart him. And this ties back into the Sorting Hat's pleas for unity.

I have another theory on 'the easy way to get the locket' which would have been used by Regulus Black: he thought there was only one Horcrux, yet he still got the locket. In a nutshell, my theory was that the 'solid air' barrier was similar to the barrier the Death Eaters put up to block the order members at Hogwarts, in that only a Death Eater (Voldemort included) could get through. It was on the 'Key in the Kitchens' thread about Regulus. I'm not saying yours is wrong, but I think mine is a lot simpler, also remember how a link to the Dark Arts has been useful in Horcrux-hunting before: Harry spoke Parseltongue to get into the Chamber of Secrets and Snape used magic Madam Pomfrey or Dumbledore couldn't to help Dumbledore recover from getting the ring.

Also, why would Voldemort exclude the ring and the diary from the chain? Unless there is a horcrux in the Chamber of Secrets, which the diary allows you into, this is a big obstacle for your theory: JKR likes to leave clues, and the only objects we saw in the Chamber were the basilisk (destroyed) and the objects sent to Harry: Fawkes, the Hat and the sword in the Hat.

About Fawkes and the Hat, I think this is like one of Fawkes' function : to carry help to the true Griffindors and give them the weapons they need to defeat Slytherin's heirs. I think he delivered the Hat, who, clever as he is, delivered the sword to Harry. I bet the founders put a charm on it that delivers heirlooms to those who need it while in need of their help. (And I think Voldemort has the same Charm with his cloak).

Also, why would Voldemort exclude the ring and the diary from the chain? Unless there is a horcrux in the Chamber of Secrets, which the diary allows you into, this is a big obstacle for your theory: JKR likes to leave clues, and the only objects we saw in the Chamber were the basilisk (destroyed) and the objects sent to Harry: Fawkes, the Hat and the sword in the Hat.

Because - Maya already has mentioned this - he made the diary and the ring into horcruxes before he came up with this ingenious plan, if we pretend that the key-theory is true. After all, he was quite young at that time, altough very brilliant and very powerful no less.
I don't think you took the trouble reading the whole thread and really trying to understand this theory. And what's that with an horcrux in the CoS to which the diary would be the key???! That's mid-tempo codswallop, obviously.

I guess on either view, Dumbledore told Fawkes to take the Hat to whomever needed his aid while he was removed as Headmaster. (Fawkes doesn't need to know anything about the sword.)
On your suggestion, Dumbledore put the sword in the Hat before he left, because it made it easier for Fawkes to carry? Keep it hidden till it was really needed?

I like my version better because it shows the Founders to not only be active and creative in trying defeat Slytherin's attempt to get around them, but also that together they could outsmart him. And this ties back into the Sorting Hat's pleas for unity.

Well ... Dumbledore clearly must have suspected something that year and mentioned that bit with loyalty back in Hagrid's hut, but I don't think it means that he told Fawkes to do this and that. I am more inclined to believe that Fawkes is not a dump pet but a fairly intelligent bird. And he is a magical bird, so I think he somehow noticed that loyalty and brought the Hat. I know this is a bit a feeble argument, but it could be that way. After all, we don't know enough about phoenixes in Jo's world.

As to your version of the Founders knowing about the chamber ... well, considering that there is a piece written in Hogwarts, A History, that could be very well the case, though I am not quite sure. However, unity means that Slytherin House is also part, so I don't think that the hat meant to unite to outsmart what? I think I even didn't quite understand your post....


Now, that I think I have put in my two coints, I would like to congratulate Maya on her awesome (your favorite word, huh? :) ) editorial and theory. It very much makes sense to me though there still may be some riddles to solve. However, the truth can only be revealed in the seventh book by Jo itself. And I am definitely very curious.

Other than congratulating and admiring you for your exquisite theory, I also wonder how you hit that particular theory? Has a sudden inspiration brought you on? I really would like to hear that tale. :)

Amaryllis

GarrodAmarylis-Perhaps this is clearer. The Unity the Sorting Hat speaks of presumably at least includes the Four Houses. Salazar Slytherin is distinct from his house, and as Slughorn has shown, not all Slytherins bear Salazar's predjudice regarding blood. So the 3 remaining Founders unite to outsmart Salazar, and their "children", the 4 houses of the school today (notice they did not close his house), unite to defeat Salazar's heir.

The question may be, did the Founders bequeeth Gryfindor's sword just to defeat the Monster in the Chamber, or to defeat Slytherin's Heir?

GarrodAmarylis-Perhaps this is clearer. The Unity the Sorting Hat speaks of presumably at least includes the Four Houses. Salazar Slytherin is distinct from his house, and as Slughorn has shown, not all Slytherins bear Salazar's predjudice regarding blood. So the 3 remaining Founders unite to outsmart Salazar, and their "children", the 4 houses of the school today (notice they did not close his house), unite to defeat Salazar's heir.

The question may be, did the Founders bequeeth Gryfindor's sword just to defeat the Monster in the Chamber, or to defeat Slytherin's Heir?

Ah... I see. Yes, that was a bit clearer. Well, I don't have the books, where the Hat's song is, so I can't quite say, if I agree or not. Anyway, I think they might have it in mind for Gryffindor's sword to defeat the Monster, but not Slytherin's Heir. I don't think or at least doubt, that they know that much of the future... It's quite unlikely, but not impossible, mind you. They could had known of a Seer predicting this future that is happening in the books. We just don't know. It's a huge question. At least, that leaves us with enough room to speculate and guess and whatever.

Amaryllis

This editorial was amazing! It seems entirely plausible that one Horcrux leads to the next. That makes it much easier to find all the Horcruxes. The only thing I wasn't too sure of was the part with Amelia Bones. I thought Voldemort just happened to run into her and found out about the Triwizard Tournament. You could be right though. Great job!

Hey, people are still talking about this. Neat!

It seems to me that if the legend of the Chamber started back in the time of the Founders, they would have tried to find it. When they failed, and recognized that Slytherin had purposely left a danger to the students in the school, I would think they would do what they could to help the people who would eventuallyy face it. So to counter, or even one up Slytherin, Gryfindor offers his own sword as a weapon against Slytherin's monster, to whomever must face it.

It's possible, I guess, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a defense plan. Why did it have to be Gryffindor's sword? There was nothing to indicate that his sword was the only one that could've done the job. Nobody knew what Slytherin's monster was, so how could they be sure a sword was the best way to defeat it? Magic has generally been shown to be more helpful in dealing with the various beasts we've seen. How did they expect the sword to get where it needed to go in a crisis? Fawkes was never there to give the hat a ride in the past, and the Chamber of Secrets obviously wasn't going to be very close to the seventh floor Headmaster's office. Why weren't Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff annoyed that the only plan was to leave behind a sword that only a true Gryffindor could pull from a hat? So what if he valued courage the most? That just doesn't seem smart enough for Ravenclaw or fair enough for Hufflepuff. And so on.


And I really want to know what makes you think Fortescue is last Griffindor's heir. Is that another rabbit from your Hat?

That is one of two small theories that I've been wanting to write up forever. I think I may actually have the time to do it soon-- I definitely want to do it before July. (So little time left!) As soon as it's done, I'll be sure to come back and post in this thread so anybody who cares can read it.


IIn a nutshell, my theory was that the 'solid air' barrier was similar to the barrier the Death Eaters put up to block the order members at Hogwarts, in that only a Death Eater (Voldemort included) could get through.

The barrier we saw on the Astronomy Tower only let those with a Dark Mark through, and Voldemort doesn't have a Dark Mark. If we say there was a barrier around the Horcrux that didn't require a Dark Mark but still let only Voldemort and Death Eaters through, it doesn't jive with Dumbledore's statement about Voldemort setting up obstacles that only he would be able to get through. And if we say there was a barrier that only Voldemort could get through, then why didn't he use it more effectively? That would've been foolproof, if it were possible.

remember how a link to the Dark Arts has been useful in Horcrux-hunting before: Harry spoke Parseltongue to get into the Chamber of Secrets

Parseltongue isn't a dark art; it's just a language. There have been good Parselmouths besides Harry.

Also, why would Voldemort exclude the ring and the diary from the chain?

He made those two before he ever set sight on any Founder's relic. He's not psychic. ;)

Also, JKR probably has her reasons for keeping the four Founders' objects in their own group. I don't remember if I mentioned this farther up in the thread, but when I wrote this editorial I was imagining the four Founders' relics as paralleling the four Tarot suites.

Gryffindor's sword = swords
Hufflepuff's cup = cups
Slytherin's locket = pentacles
Ravenclaw's whatever = wands / rods / staves

Since then, we've found out that the title of the final book is The Deathly Hallows. Arthurian legend, which JKR has referenced multiple times in the HP series, has a set of four objects called the Grail Hallows. Each Grail Hallow has its own special power, and they also sync up with the Tarot suites.

Still no absolute proof, but it really looks like she's going for something specific with this group of four objects.


awesome (your favorite word, huh? :) )

The secret to this whole editorial is imagining me saying that word like a teenage boy (which I am not, and no offense intended to teenage boys).

Other than congratulating and admiring you for your exquisite theory, I also wonder how you hit that particular theory? Has a sudden inspiration brought you on? I really would like to hear that tale. :)

Thanks. :)

I actually thought of the beginnings of it in bed one night. I was thinking about how Voldemort couldn't have brought anyone else with him to drink the potion, because then he would've realized that he had a huge gap in his security that anyone could take advantage of. I was drifting off to sleep, and the image of Dumbledore conjuring his crystal goblet came to mind. I suddenly realized-- it was only a matter of using the right cup! And from there I worked backwards to add on the Ravenclaw and Gryffindor bits of the chain.

A recent time-turner accident has actually resulted in the editorial where I first mentioned the idea to be posted just this week. You can see it here (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-maya04.shtml), but be warned that the theory's in a much rougher state. It was very soon after submitting that piece that I realized there was no reason Gryffindor's sword couldn't be the final key, made the Amelia Bones connection, etc.


The only thing I wasn't too sure of was the part with Amelia Bones. I thought Voldemort just happened to run into her and found out about the Triwizard Tournament.

I think you've got Amelia Bones confused with Bertha Jorkins. Amelia was killed by Voldemort between Books 5 & 6; Bertha was killed by Voldemort between Books 3 & 4. Amelia was the one with the monocle during Harry's underage magic hearing in Order of the Phoenix.

I like your theory of keys a lot. D*mn you. :) I now wish I haven't read it.
Except I don't think Voldemort had the sword with him when he went to the Potters. I know this is purely speculating but I think the sword was in James possesion and that gave Voldemort another reason to single out Harry over Neville. James was a gryffindor and had a lot of money. After all JKR told us he didn't have to work for it. Whether he inherited the sword or bought it James could have had this object in his possesion since we have no idea where the sword was before Harry pulled it out of the hat. After James and Lily died the sword would belong to Harry and would therefor probably been taken into his vault at Gringotts. And since Harry's vault is stocked with stuff; it might have been there all along without him noticing it when he visited the vault in PS.

We already have a perfectly good reason for Ollivander's disappearance-- Priori Incantatem. He made Harry and Voldemort's wands, and Voldemort would probably like to have a little talk with Ollivander before facing Harry again.
Yeah, that is a good reason, but maybe the ravenclaw horcrux voldemort used is Rowena's wand.
According to your theory Voldemort would need the sword to obtain his Ravenclaw horcrux. Without the sword he might look for other ways to be able to pass his own protection of that horcrux. If it is a wand it could also be an another explanation for Ollivanders abduction.

There is also one other problem with Voldemorts plan. If only one of his horcrux is destroyed his chain will be broken and he won't be able to get too the other previous ones himself. This might just qualify into your catagory of oops, forgot that. But I find that hard to believe.

Another issue is what Dumbledore said to Harry before drinking the potion. He stated that Voldemort would not immediately want to kill someone who drank it, because he would want to interrogate the person before he/she died, which sounds plausible to me. So where was he???!!! Everybody keeps drinking that potion (RAB/DD), but no Voldemort in sight.


Your mention of Fortesque reminds me of something of less relevance. Fortesque is in Ice Creme. Slughorn tells Dumbledore when Harry first meets him, that a freezing charm gets him around Muggle alarm systems. We know at least one Muggle junior Minister has been magically attacked. Perhaps it was Voldemort's desire to go after relatively secure Muggles which aroused the Deatheater's interest in Fortesque.
Ohh dear, the Dursleys home might not be so safe after all. And what off Hermiones parents?!! This is a really scary idea.


By the way, the sword being inside Hogwarts might be a really good reason for Voldemort to attack the school.

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but Lucius Malfoy was in Dumbledore's office at the end of CoS. He would have seen the sword and would be able to tell Voldemort where it is. (You know he'll be out of Azkaban soon. They can't seem to hold prisoners for long anymore.)

That was really good...
Question: Does anyone else think that Hepzibah Smith and Zacharias Smith are related? It's a common enough last name, but the first names are certainly unusual...and also Rowling doesn't seem to use names more than once...

About Malfoy in the office, he might have seen a sword, but it's hard to deduce that it's Griffindor's. Moreover, Malfoy doesn't know about the horcruxes (as he gave one to Ginny Weasley), and wouldn't have any idea Voldemort would like it. And anyway, Voldemort doesn't seem to need it anymore.
About the Smith, yeah they're related he's like his grandnephew, I don't remember but it's been mentionned.

Has anyone noticed the May 2007 Wizard of the month on J.K. Rowling's website? Here is a link to the text version. (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/wotm.cfm)

For those who can't access that information here is the text.
Section: Wizard of the Month
Helga Hufflepuff
(Medieval, precise dates unknown)
One of the four celebrated Founders of Hogwarts, Hufflepuff was particularly famous for her dexterity at food-related Charms. Many recipes traditionally served at Hogwarts feasts originated with Hufflepuff.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All rights reserved JK Rowling.

If you go to the full version of the website, the picture of Helga Hufflepuff shows her holding a 2 handled golden cup encrusted with red jewels (rubies?). She also appears to have red hair.

I wonder if Rowling is dropping us a clue as to what the magical properties of Hufflepuff's cup are? Just thought I'd post this to help stir the pot (or cup) a little.

Wow, great editorial. I've been a lurker for a while, and you finally got me to register so I could put my 2 cents in. So here they are: I really like the idea that Harry could use the Founders items to get Horcruxes because, if you think about it, Harry's already done it once. In CoS Harry uses Gryffindors' sword to get past the proection to get to a horcrux (diary). Jo does love her forshadowing.

Great Editorial. And of course we now know, from the cover of the children's uk edition of book 7 that Harry does indeed have GG's sword (and a house-elf to supply that extra bit of team work that might be needed in breaking charms). Great ideas that seem quite likely all things considered.

[Fortescue as heir of Gryffindor] is one of two small theories that I've been wanting to write up forever. I think I may actually have the time to do it soon-- I definitely want to do it before July. (So little time left!) As soon as it's done, I'll be sure to come back and post in this thread so anybody who cares can read it.

Cutting it as close as possible (in true Gryffindor fashion, I suppose) It is now July 1 and I have recently posted an essay on my HP blog (http://queenzigs.livejournal.com/26615.html) listing the evidence (or "evidence," if you prefer) that suggests Fortescue is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor.


There is also one other problem with Voldemorts plan. If only one of his horcrux is destroyed his chain will be broken and he won't be able to get too the other previous ones himself. This might just qualify into your catagory of oops, forgot that. But I find that hard to believe.


So the worst-case (and in Voldemort's opinion, highly unlikely) scenario leaves the Horcruxes locked up with no one able to access them, ensuring Voldemort would live forever? Oh yeah, he'd hate that. ;)


I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but Lucius Malfoy was in Dumbledore's office at the end of CoS. He would have seen the sword and would be able to tell Voldemort where it is. (You know he'll be out of Azkaban soon. They can't seem to hold prisoners for long anymore.)

I'm pretty sure it was discussed farther up the thread, but that's the movie version of events. In the book, they were in McGonagall's office and the sword wasn't sitting out on display when Lucius came barging in. Read that chapter and try to follow where the sword is-- there's a point when it basically disappears from the description and is never mentioned again. So Lucius may not have seen it, may not have known what it was (the book version didn't come across as having giant letters that ran down the blade), and definitely didn't know Voldemort wanted to make a Horcrux out of it.

But I think Voldemort probably knows where the sword is by now, so it's all kind of a moot point anyway.


I wonder if Rowling is dropping us a clue as to what the magical properties of Hufflepuff's cup are?

I'd be willing to bet that she is. So-- a food or drink related magical property Hufflepuff's cup could have that would also help Voldemort get by the potion obstacle in the cave? Should be easy enough. In the editorial, I said, "Maybe Hufflepuff’s cup turns anything put in it to water or to pumpkin juice." (If we wanted to make that more cooking-related, we could say that Helga used the cup to conjure up any ingredient she might need.) Anyone want to make another suggestion?

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