The Mystery of the Stupefied Death Eater

buygraphpaper
July 18th, 2006, 4:30 pm
Discussion for The Mystery of the Stupefied Death Eater (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-emmac01.shtml) by Emma C.

MooMooImADuck
July 18th, 2006, 5:25 pm
That is a very good theory. I never even noticed that the Rufus said a different curse and I forgot that Moody wasn't there. It's definitely something to keep in mind until Book 7.

Great job! Very Original.

FBAWTFT
July 18th, 2006, 5:29 pm
WOW! a fab theory and i think you may have a point.....ever since dumbledores death i was in denial and concluded that his death was staged....your theory backs this up.

it would certainly explain alot....if he wanted to, dumbledore, the most powerful wizard, would surely have been able to save himself from the situation he was in up the tower. his main priority was to protext harry and i think he definatly has spys for voldemort. the absence of moody was also unexplainable but your idea gives him a location.

your theory also shows, as i have long suspected, that snape is good....he would have known and been involved about plans for dumbledores death. this is why he didn't hesitate to make the unbreakable vow, as the idea was that dumbledore should die (for some reason unbeknown to us) as part of dumbledores plan.

also, read back over the part when snape makes the vow and it appears he is bloking his mind from bellatrix who is trying to do occlumency. (his expression was "unreadable") this shows snape was trying to hide something.
i think dumbledore planned his death (with snapes help) as part of a plan against voldemort. it would make sense and your editorial shows this. there are tonnes of hidden clues in the books but you've picked up on this one and reakon you're right!! :clap:

smyonson
July 18th, 2006, 5:42 pm
I think that it is an interesting theory and I will have to re read that chapter carefully when I get to it, and see how the spells get mixed up. It very well might be that Moody is in disguise, and would then help Harry to understand the reason behind what happened on the tower, and have him and Snape working together again, but with JK you never know.

kicker6861
July 18th, 2006, 6:10 pm
i think this is a great theory. but in the editorial it said it could have been that scrimgeour may have got the spells mixed up. i think this is unlikley . if the BFDE isnt moody, then i think that scrimgeour just thought harry would slip up and correct him on the wrong spell and by doing that, admit he was on the tower.

crookshanksfan
July 18th, 2006, 6:18 pm
I enjoyed your editorial, though I'm not quite convinced yet. Why Moody wasn't present certainly needs an explanation, and yours might work. But I must say I really think Dumbledore is dead, and in that case, it seems to be a very difficult task for Moody to be present just to make sure Snape kills Dumbledore, not Draco. If Dumbledore is still alive, though, I think your theory may be right.

Anyway, nice job!

Ticci
July 18th, 2006, 6:21 pm
Excellent theory! I did notice that death eater and thought it peculiar but didn't apply your logic. Thanks for the idea!

misskneazle
July 18th, 2006, 7:22 pm
It is interesting, and a really well thought out theory. However, could it be a mistake by JKR? Or can stupefied be used in more general terms in some cases if the effect is similar? Maybe. How could he(Scrimgeour) have rephrased it using the actual spell that was used on BFDE? It's plausible, but I'm not leaning toward believing it, because my belief is strongly against Snape being good, and I still think more evidence points in that direction. You did a great job though!

Jacob_Marley
July 18th, 2006, 7:28 pm
Ok, I've got to give this one an unequivocal No. The problem with this theory is that it is based on the theory that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him. I reject that theory totally. Killing is, as Shughorn tells us, the supreme act of evil. Dumbledore has dedicated his life to opposing evil and for him to order anyone's killing, even his own, is a total violation of who he is.

Secondly, the theory relies on a single very weak thread, being the misidentification of the spell used. This could be a slip by Rowling, or careless language by Scrimgouer, or, as sugested above, an attempt to trap Harry into admitting he was on the tower that night. I'm sorry, but this is simply not enough to hold the theory together.

luvtheheaven
July 18th, 2006, 7:45 pm
The problem with this theory is that it is based on the theory that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him. I reject that theory totally.

Secondly, the theory relies on a single very weak thread, being the misidentification of the spell used. This could be a slip by Rowling, or careless language by Scrimgouer, or, as sugested above, an attempt to trap Harry into admitting he was on the tower that night. I'm sorry, but this is simply not enough to hold the theory together.

I agree. This theory is interesting, but I just re-read the parts where the brutal-faced Death Eater is mentioned, and although his few actions do seem to be stalling in the same way Snape says not to kill Harry because the Dark Lord wants him (the Death Eater says not to kill Dumbledore because Draco must do it), there is no real evidence to support the Moody theory. Yes, Moody wasn't there. But we have no idea why. I don't think that Dumbledore planned on Snape killing him, even if he did plead for Snape to kill him when the time called on it as the only option.

OldMrToad
July 18th, 2006, 7:57 pm
Interesting idea. Kinda pushing it so far as it being Moody though. Keep up the good work...

OMT

IAmHermione
July 18th, 2006, 8:01 pm
Hmm...could be. Nice theory, something to think about.

Wimsey
July 18th, 2006, 8:14 pm
Polyjuice potion has to be administered hourly. It would have worn of soon after the MoM guys got to the stunned Moody if this were true, or perhaps even before. Thus, Scrimgeour would have known by the time that he spoke to Harry that it was not a Death Eater, but Moody.


I think that we can just attribute this to JKR not completely editting her own work, or perhaps even

Shewoman
July 18th, 2006, 8:23 pm
I agree with Wimsey about Polyjuice--plus Moody would have had to get part of whichever DE he was impersonating.

I like Kicker's idea that Scrimgeour was trying to trap Harry.

snapegirl
July 18th, 2006, 8:31 pm
Nice catch about the mixed up spells. I have to agree with Wimsey, though. I think it was either a mistake on the Minister's part or on JKR's.
Just because it doesn't say that he escapes or was captured, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Unless I missed something, I don't remember Greyback leaving the caste either.

limi
July 18th, 2006, 9:08 pm
I think everyone's been missing something important here: the DEs set up a barrier that Harry assumed, and I think he was right, only allowed people who have been branded with the dark mark to pass. Even if Moody did use the polyjuice potion, as he has never been branded with the dark mark by Voldemort I don't think it would've let him pass. I think it was just a mistake made by Rowling, but it's nice to see people pay attention to details.

mor37011
July 18th, 2006, 9:27 pm
The most probable theory is that JKR/Scrimgeour said "stupified" in a general way. The most interesting part of this theory is, "where exactly was Moody?" I'd like to hear more theories on that subject. Good editorial and good attention to detail!

SusanBones
July 18th, 2006, 9:40 pm
I think everyone's been missing something important here: the DEs set up a barrier that Harry assumed, and I think he was right, only allowed people who have been branded with the dark mark to pass. Even if Moody did use the polyjuice potion, as he has never been branded with the dark mark by Voldemort I don't think it would've let him pass. I think it was just a mistake made by Rowling, but it's nice to see people pay attention to details. Good catch - unless the dark mark also appears on a person who takes polyjuice potion, the same way Barty Jr had to wear Moody's fake eye.

This editorial took a lot of careful thought. I don't see too many innovative ideas, things that others didn't notice before, but this editorial found one. I agree with Jacob_Marley that this editorial depends on the theory that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. And I just don't think Dumbledore would do that. And I agree with Wimsey that this is just a JK slipup or an editorial goof.

But good job thinking of a new angle.

king
July 18th, 2006, 9:49 pm
I don't buy the idea that there was a member of the order of the Phoenix there to make sure that Snape killed Dumbledore. What's next? Is some Snape lover going to suggest that Tonks helped Malfoy get his cabinet to work in order to set up the Snape kills Dumbledore scene because Dumbledore wanted to be murdered by snape in front of Harry?

How about this: Scrimgeour was an Auror and the head of Magical Law Enforcement. He's probably about as paranoid as Moody but maybe just a bit smarter. Afterall he did make it to the top. Scrimgeour was fishing for information. He deliberately misnamed the spell that was used on the Death Eater on the tower in hopes of eliciting a response from Harry. If Harry had said, "I don't know who Petrified that Death Eater." Scrimgeour would have him. It's just a standard interrogation trick.

YaMo
July 18th, 2006, 10:07 pm
You guys believe everything :no:
This theorie is complete **** :td:

And about where Moody was: Dumbledore just called some Order members to patrol the corridors while he was gone. Not the whole order will be there, just a couple of people. Moody just wasn't part of it.

loona
July 18th, 2006, 10:10 pm
I like the idea that Scrimgeour was just fishing for information, because when I read it thats what I got from it.

You do bring up an interesting question though: Where was Moody?

Besides I don't think Jo would make it that easy for us to know whether or not Snape was good or EVIL.

blessed_dragon
July 18th, 2006, 10:25 pm
I think it's a good concept and you backed it up well but I just don't think that the Death Eater is Moody in disguise. If anything, the whole mix-up was just due to the dear Minister getting bad facts or confusing the two spells.

I_Love_The_DA
July 19th, 2006, 12:29 am
good editorial. Nice and short and didn't waffle on aimlessly. I don't agree with you though, i think that J.K Rowling made a typo (you can find a lot of small continuity errors in the books) but it was really good how you backed up everything though. Unfortunately I'm a Dumbledores dead and Snape is Evil supporters.

Waterfall
July 19th, 2006, 12:48 am
Interesting... where was Moody? And if he had been on the tower, he would have been able to retrieve Harry's Invisibility Cloak and be a means of returning it to him before or during Book 7. (Harry didn't get it back during HBP, did he?) After all, the last time we all thought Harry had lost his cloak for good (at the end of GoF), JKR was conveniently able to say he had nicked it out of "Moody's" office and she just hadn't specifically written it in. Lol, I do believe her when she said she had planned that all along and just assumed we'd get it.

Auror Harry
July 19th, 2006, 2:36 am
Doubt it.

"Somebody Stupefied a Death Eater on top of the tower after Dumbledore died..."

Maybe Jo was absent-minded.

Or Rufus was.

keefmoons
July 19th, 2006, 2:48 am
Heh, you took the words right out of my mouth.

This theory is just a wee bit too out there for me. I say, Dumbledore's dead, Snape did it, and let's just wait for the next book to find out why!

revonow05
July 19th, 2006, 3:30 am
ummm I think you are all forgetting that it was HARRY who stupefied the Death Eater, remember? Pg. 597 HBP US ed. : "Harry realized he could move again..... He threw the Invisibility Cloak aside as the brutal-faced Death Eater, last to leave the tower top, was disappearing throught the door.
'Patrificus Totatlus!'
The Death Eater buckled as though hit in the back with something solid and fell to the ground, rigid as a waxwork, but he had barely hit the floor when Harry was clambering over him and running down the darkened staircase."

shmcminn
July 19th, 2006, 4:32 am
This really supports the Dumbledore is not dead theory. Moody could have been up there to make sure that Snape got the chance to cast a spell that was not the Avada Kedavra instead of Malfoy screwing it up.

FuzzyMartin
July 19th, 2006, 5:16 am
If Dumbledore did ask Snape to kill him to save Snape's life, then letting another order member that wouldn't object to impersonating a death eater would be perfect. If he let Snape kill him and only harry, malfoy, and a few death eaters saw it, then snape would be screwed as far as keeping on the good side of the order. By letting Moody see this happen, then somebody from the order could tell them about Snape doing it because Dumbledore told him to. And yes, killing is the supreme act of evil but not if someone is telling you to do it to save your own life. Either Dumbledore was pleading for him not to kill him or he was pleading for him to kill him, and I don't think Dumbledore would plead for his life considering he said that death was just another great adventure for someone as old as him. But, i might be completely wrong and snape just wants to kill everybody and Dumbledore didn't want to die.

Goldenhair
July 19th, 2006, 1:43 pm
I agree with Limi. But who knows if polyjuice potion would recreate the dark mark or not.

My big question is Fenrir Greyback. It seems Harry either hit him with petrificus totalus or stupify. Either way I think Greyback has been captured as well.

If they are both DE's that is two more DE's than the order and Ministry of magic have captured togther (minus the 9 DE's Dumbledore captured). For those who underestimate Harry's abilities, a good reference.

FBAWTFT
July 19th, 2006, 2:04 pm
I commented before on this theory but a reread makes me think it may not quite fit....maybe just a misake? i was also thinking that maybe Dumbledore didn't want Snape to kill him, but knew it had to happen because of the unbreakable vow, which Snape had no choice in making.

i agree with all those who say that it really isn't that simple to know if snape is good or evil.....hey.....maybe he's working for himself!!!

TASTYOWLS
July 19th, 2006, 3:20 pm
Interesting point. Death Eaters are usually revealed when they are captured or killed and connections are then made to other characters in the story already revealed or to be revealed. The ommission is curious

witch007
July 19th, 2006, 3:23 pm
ummm I think you are all forgetting that it was HARRY who stupefied the Death Eater, remember? Pg. 597 HBP US ed. : "Harry realized he could move again..... He threw the Invisibility Cloak aside as the brutal-faced Death Eater, last to leave the tower top, was disappearing throught the door.
'Patrificus Totatlus!'
The Death Eater buckled as though hit in the back with something solid and fell to the ground, rigid as a waxwork, but he had barely hit the floor when Harry was clambering over him and running down the darkened staircase."

The thing is he didn't stupefy him, he petrified him because he used the Petrificus Totalus Spell, not Stupefy.

hcnbedbugs
July 19th, 2006, 3:25 pm
Well, one thing I know for sure is that I never would have noticed that if it wasn't pointed out to me. So well done on catching it and even coming up with a pretty good theory about it. It could just be nothing, but it would be a good plot to have someone else besides Dumbledore and SS who knows what was going on that night.

kaduzy
July 19th, 2006, 9:44 pm
It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would Moody bother moving the body back to the top of the tower? What difference would it have made, from his POV, if the stupefied body were found there or someplace else in the castle? It would only have made a difference to Death Eaters, and they were all long-gone. The ministry knew the Order was there fighting DEs and the Order could have made up any story they wanted if there were certian facts they didn't want Ministry wizards to know. I just can't picture Moody coming out of his curse (whether naturally or by his own non-verbal means), going down to retrieve the other guy's body, taking more trouble to disillusion it or cover it with Harry's cloak, and then drag the body back up to the tower, all the time risking being caught at it by someone. Remember, the place would have been crawling with frightened students, teachers and Ministry officials by that time.

So it's an interesting theory, but I don't buy it. Either Rowling and her editors slipped up (it's happened before) by forgetting which curse she had Harry use, or the Minister slipped up. I don't think there's any mystery here, though I give you major kudos for spotting the snafu!

HOWEVER -- I'd be willing to buy that Moody, IF he was Polyjuiced as someone, was playing the part of that big blond DE. Something really fishy was definitely going on with that guy! :)

cal1
July 19th, 2006, 10:31 pm
That explains why Dumbledore put Harry out of action,that is,someone from the order was there among the villains.

YaMo
July 20th, 2006, 12:00 am
Either Dumbledore was pleading for him not to kill him or he was pleading for him to kill him, and I don't think Dumbledore would plead for his life considering he said that death was just another great adventure for someone as old as him.
It's not because you're not afraid of death that you want to die...
And it is possible that Dumbledore didn't plead for his life or his death. Maybe he just suddenly realised that he was wrong about Snape after all. And he was "pleading" for some sign that Snape hadn't deceived him.

hpfreak731
July 20th, 2006, 12:44 am
I am very interested in finding out where the heck Moody was. Good theory. I wonder what BFDE's name is...

ptrut12345
July 20th, 2006, 1:55 am
I doubt it. Scrimgeour might have heard the wrong information. The two spells act very similarly, essentially imobilizing the opponent. Scrimgeour is a leader, and a leader is briefed as quickly as possible on events to see the big picture. An underling, one who had investigated the scene, probably found the DE and told Scrimgeour that the individual was stunned (vaguely worded but in essence correct). Or he could have been trying to trap Harry. It doesn't really matter which.

That being said, Moody was not supposed to be on the scene. There were a handful of specific Order members Dumbledore had stationed there as he traveled. Those were the ones who were present at the outset. Moody could have been on a mission somewhere else. Dumbledore probably had many people out on various missions constantly. That's how one acts in war. I don't think that was an Order member. If Dumbledore had foreseen the battle, it is feasible he would have tried to get an Order member in the DE ranks to act on his orders, whatever those were.

The problem, then, is that he did not know the attack was going to happen, especially the critical one led by Draco. Further, if it was indeed Moody in disguise, we do not know if he would have been able to get through the barrier before or after (not sure if they set it up before going to the tower). Also, with his mission (were it to ensure Snape killed Dumbledore instead of Draco) accomplished, he should have at least stunned or stopped a couple DEs on their way out. Their backs were turned and it could save lives of students, teachers, Order members, and various others. Less DEs on the loose is a good thing. Not a likely theory.

Cady
July 20th, 2006, 2:14 am
I can see why the slip of Scrimgeour's tongue would lend itself to this theory, but I can't agree with it.

Polyjuice Potion requires one to take a piece of the person one is going to transform into before it is complete. It also takes a month to brew. I highly doubt that Moody kept a batch of just brewed poly-juice potion on hand, in the off chance he could substitute himself as a Death Eater somewhere.

Also, eventually all Death Eaters do their rounds kissing Voldemorts scaly toes. I'm certain Voldemort helps himself to the contents of their minds during such sessions. Voldemort could certainly have sniffed out a Death Eater imposter. Granted Moody could be an Occulumens, but I doubt it. His unique trick is seeing through things, not minds.

So, while I certainly see why it would seem possible, I just don't think it likely.

revonow05
July 20th, 2006, 2:31 am
I think it's possible that scrimgeour said "somebody stupefied a death eater" because that's a lot simpler than "somebody hit a death eater with a full body-bind curse." It just flows better

Mae
July 20th, 2006, 4:01 am
while i dont necessarily believe ur theory (for the most part i think it was a simple mistake by rowling), i have to admit ur editorial DOES raise a question: where was mad-eye moody?

hermiobonni
July 20th, 2006, 3:59 pm
I love the thought of Moody being the BFDE, but let's not forget that Rowling tends to describe people and things in the same way (bandy-legged, toad-like,etc.)and we draw conclusions from them and get excited thinking wev'e figured something out, and then she lays the smackdown on us and tells us were wrong. She's sneaky that way, of course Dumbledore didn't address him by name like the others, so maybe he didn't recognize him...or maybe he did!

tovarbaker
July 20th, 2006, 4:01 pm
that just seems way to convoluted to me. it is a simple mistake either by Jo or by the ministry employee. I doubt it was anything more

jasmeenroxz
July 22nd, 2006, 2:27 am
i'm on the wire with this one, This would be a very J.K thing to do, but it has she also knows that we tend to catch on early. so it could of been there to confuse us...lol...now i'm confussed...no matter, this was a really well written theory.

1hp2
July 22nd, 2006, 7:13 am
I doubt Dumbledore would want Moody at Hogwarts the night of the fight posing as a Death Eater. With several students directly in harms way, and really the entire student body in danger, I think Dumbledore would have every Order member their trying to "guard" the school, not babysitting Snape.

Reini
July 22nd, 2006, 10:13 am
Can anyone tell me why Dumbledore used the spell "petrifying totalus" on Harry on the top of the tower? It doesn´t make sense if not Dumbledore would have planned his own death. Otherwise Harry would have been able to fight Draco. His invisibly cloke would have been a real advantage, also against the rest of the death eaters.

belsito
July 23rd, 2006, 7:36 am
Isn't it just possible that "outwardly" the two curses appear the same and that it would be the person under the curse who would be able to tell the difference. I don't think that the Death Eater was going to volonteer information to Scrimgeor about which of them it was. To admit that he was hit by the fully body bind would be to admit that he knew what happened up there and he would have to give evidence. Saying that he was stupified, he can plead total ignorance of what happened up there.

feebie
July 24th, 2006, 7:22 am
Polyjuice potion has to be administered hourly. It would have worn of soon after the MoM guys got to the stunned Moody if this were true, or perhaps even before. Thus, Scrimgeour would have known by the time that he spoke to Harry that it was not a Death Eater, but Moody.


I think that we can just attribute this to JKR not completely editting her own work, or perhaps even


If you re-read this editorial, you will see that the writer of this theory already explained the possibility of this; The fact that Moody, being an auror, would be excellent in counter-curses. It isn't known that the petrificus totalus curse can or cannot be counter-cursed by a non-verbal spell, so this still could be possible. Therefore, Moody could have counter-cursed the petrificus spell, retrieved the real (previously stupified) BFDE, and brought him back to the tower using either Harry's invisibility cloak or an invisibility charm, which would explain exactly what the author of the editorial had said - why the ministry found the BFDE to be stupified, rather than paralyzed.

I think it is a pretty legitimate theory, and it would explain alot of things we have all been questioning.

Can anyone tell me why Dumbledore used the spell "petrifying totalus" on Harry on the top of the tower? It doesn´t make sense if not Dumbledore would have planned his own death. Otherwise Harry would have been able to fight Draco. His invisibly cloke would have been a real advantage, also against the rest of the death eaters.


I think it was because Dumbledore didn't want to place Harry in harm's way. He knew the DE's were coming, and what Malfoy was going to do. If anyone knew that Harry was there, they would most likely capture him and/or kill him. I think it is at Dumbledore's highest priority to keep Harry alive, as is JKR's...because without Harry, there is no book 7!

im_her_one
July 25th, 2006, 12:51 am
brilliant theory - it seems like jk's style: to slip in a little clue like that one that could possibly be a mistake, but to have it be in reality very meaningful to the plot line. i wondered about the curse mixup when i read HBP, but i merely dismissed it as a mistake (of Scrimgeour's or my own). i'm glad someone thought it through!

saddrummer
July 26th, 2006, 7:10 pm
After reading the first paragraph, I became rather annoyed as I had sent in an e-mail to Mugglenet quite a few months ago pointing out this confusion between petrificus totalus and being stupified. I sent this to the mistakes column hoping that it was a mistake and my name would go down as one of the people who found a mistake in JK's books. It has not been put up yet and no reply has been given to me.

Surely the mugglenet staff would see that as a mistake and even if they are suspicious that it could be part of the plot like this editorial, they would still have to put it up as there is no proof, I hope the staff will read this and maybe re-consider...

Phil_Stone
July 27th, 2006, 3:54 am
Its not a mistake, Saddrummer, but an attempt to elicit one. Scrimgoer was the top Auror, he knows his interogation techniques, and this one is boilerplate. Offer false information and let the interviewee contradict or correct you, and you have a wedge to open him up. If he doesn't bite at first, he may use the false data in his story, which you can then correct and use the falsehoods in the story as a wedge.

But Harry was smart enough to not try to be clever, so there was nothing Scrimgoer could do.

As to Mad-Eye, he has his own invisibility cloak, and none of the Order comment upon his absence, even to regret it after they hear of Dumbledore's demise.

I actually think that Dumbledore did have an Invisible Ally on hand that night. There are too many uncharacteristic bits of Dumbledore's behaviour that night to take everything at face value. (For example, courageously flying straight to the Tower, and then sending Harry into a trap meant for Dumbledore, with only an Invisibility Cloak for protection?)

MadEye's Eye being able to see through the Blackout powder might well be a clue that it was him. And somebody confunded the Enormous Blond Deatheater whom kaduzy mentioned, and it wasn't the Order members. But I don't thiink Scrimgoer's remark itself goes very far toward proving anything.

ksig
July 30th, 2006, 3:01 am
Wow! I love this theory. It could just be a goof on Scrimgeour's part (or even on the part of JKR -- not likely, though).

Moody is not described as being in the fray at Hogwarts that evening, but not every member of the OotP was necessarily there either.

It's too bad that Lupin was not able to pick up wind of the plot from Greyback, at least as far as we know.

Very interesting theory, however. It would be a means by which Snape could somehow be vindicated with the rest of the Order if Moody were a witness to it and was in on the secret that Dumbledore shared with Snape.

Only time will tell....

donKA
July 30th, 2006, 8:58 am
The theory of possible other "undercover" members of the order among the DE that night had attracted also my attention, but I had pointed at another Death eater: the huge blond, who also remains without a more precise description of his identity.

I found something strange in this character, which appears from nowhere, makes a lot of confusion but no real harm and finally disappears behind Snape and Draco. Here are some extracts from the HBP on him:

"Harry saw Tonks fighting an enormous blond wizard who was sending curses flying in all directions, so that they ricocheted off the walls around them..."

"the blond Death Eater was aiming curse after curse at the gamekeeper, but Hagrid's immense strength, and the toughened skin he had inherited from his giantess mother, seemed to be protecting him, ..." ( I know Hagrid is more "resistent", but to what extent?)

"Well, the big Death Eater had just fired off a hex that caused half the ceiling to fall in, and also broke the curse blocking the stairs..." (so it is in fact him opening the way to the members of the Order)

And in particular this one: can a person be killed by an Avada Kedavra not directly sent to him? and even if it is possible, this DE was a sort of calamity for his mates: "a Death eater 's dead. He got hit by a Killing Curse the huge blond one was firing off everywhere"

I had not thought at the Polyjuice potion, but at someone else who according to all the information we have should be dead, or should not be there. My first and obvious thoughts went to the Black brothers, or to a "redempted" Lucius Malfoy escaped from Azkaban, but if any of you had the same idea or some good reasons to consider this just absurd I'd be happy to know your thoughts.

The_Bellatrix
August 1st, 2006, 1:52 am
That's a really interesting theory, but it creates a lot of loose ends, mostly with my own theories though. Well, I'm just curious, but has anyone thought to see if it was a mistake...?

freaky1974
August 9th, 2006, 3:33 pm
imo the theory is a brilliant one, I think Dumbledore knew what Draco was doing, knew that whatever was protecting the locket could be fateful, especially if not treated asap, it made sense to have a fake DE to delay time for Snape to arrive, I believe Snape is good, but is made to look evil on this occasion to continue with Dumbledore's plans.

Someone mentioned that polyjuice potion took a month to prepare, correct, but if we remember correctly there is a cauldron full of it in the dungeon which was prepared earlier in the book. It also seems to me that every potion that was mentioned in the first potions lesson in the book has been used in some form throughout the book :

Love potion - was supposed to be used on Harry but was accidently taken by Ron
Luck potion - was used on Harry's friends for when they patrolled the corrider where the room of requirement is
Draught of living death - the potion that Dumbledore drank to get to the locket?????
Polyjuice potion - to replace a DE during the battle?????
Veritaserum - I don't think this has been used in book 6, I could be wrong though

inkling7
August 12th, 2006, 6:18 am
I think Dumbledore was already dying and that nothing much could save him so maybe Snape was doing him a favour by putting him out of his misery before Fenrir et al got to him. If they had then Dumbledore would have died a most painful death as ou can be sure he would have been tortured first by the likes of Fenrir. The theory has a few holes in it, but with JK who knows.....it could explain Moody's absence and cover the fact that somehow if Snape is good then Harry can be told and so work with him. If Snape is bad or out for himself - well that's a different matter. I'm sitting on the fence with who's side Snape is really on as I can't tell which and only JK knows the real answer to that question.

mo1
August 13th, 2006, 9:13 pm
First, I want to say to the author of this editorial: congratulations for you great imagination. :clap:
I too had picked up most of the points you mentioned as clues, but I would never had been able to relate them and imagine such a theory.
I disagree with most of it though (mainly because I don’t believe Dumbledore had planned his death that precisely).

About the stupefied/petrified thing, I don’t believe it’s a mistake and I agree with those who think it was a bait to trick Harry in admitting he was on the tower.

About the unnamed Death Eaters (the Brutal Faced DE and the huge blond DE), maybe we know their names without knowing it.
At the beginning of the book, in Spinner’s End, Snape says : “You ask why I did not attempt to find him when he vanished. For the same reason that Avery, Yaxley, the Carrows, Greyback, Lucius […] and many others did not attempt to find him”.
There are some names that as far as I recall were never mentioned previously : Yaxley, the Carrows, Greyback. Greyback was on the tower, I’m ready to bet that Amycus and Alecto are the Carrows, so why wouldn’t one of the two others (the BFDE) be Yaxley ?
And the huge blond DE could be Avery. He strikes me as being an idiot who acts before thinking (look at his behaviour in the Graveyard in GoF) and Sirius mentioned him as a friend of Snape’s.

EDIT: Avery was amongst those who were arrested at the end of OotP, so he can't be there after all (unless there had been a breakout we haven't heard about). But the behaviour of the Huge Blond DE could also recall us of a polyjuiced Wormtail for example.


I too wonder about Moody.
That being said, Moody was not supposed to be on the scene. There were a handful of specific Order members Dumbledore had stationed there as he traveled. Those were the ones who were present at the outset. Moody could have been on a mission somewhere else. Dumbledore probably had many people out on various missions constantly. That's how one acts in war.
OK, all the members of the Order couldn’t be there, but JRK uses to have those who are close to Harry on the first line.
And there too, the members of the Order Dumbledore had patrol the castle were not Sturgis Podmore, Dedallus Dingle or some unknown OotP members, but, o surprise !, Remus Lupin, Tonks and Bill Weaslay.
Let’s look at it closely, OK? Where were all the major members of the OotP and the DA that night ?
• Harry : we see the scene trough his eyes
• Dumbledore : with Harry
• The other kids who were at the Ministry : all fighting or spying on Snape
• McGonagall, Lupin, Tonks, Bill : on duty defending the castle
• Snape : with Draco and the bad guys
• Hagrid : by his hut, unaware of what is going on (as we learn from him immediately after)
• Mr and Mrs Weasley, Fleur, Fred and George : were never involved in major battles between Order members and DE (+ too young and not graduated for the twins) ; we can’t expect them to be there; location : the Burrow for the Weasleys and Fleur, most probably by their shop in Diagon Alley for the twins
• Mundungus Fletcher : in Askaban or not willing to meet Dumbledore or Harry as we learn somewhere in HBP; we can’t expect him to be there
• Charlie Weasley : supposedly in Romania ; we can’t expect him to be there too
• Kingsley Shacklebolt : JRK had made sure that we know as soon as the first chapter of HBP what he was doing and why he won’t be there later
• Mad-Eye Moody :Er…, strange, we don’t have a clue what he was doing, and he is the only one amongst the major Order members in this situation !
Alastor “Mad-Eye” Moody : the best Auror the Ministry ever had, member of the original Order, old friend of Dumbledore’s, ex- meant to be-professor of Hogwarts, the very man Dumbledore trusted to secure the highly dangerous Triwizard Tournament when Voldemort started to regain power. Why on earth would Dumbledore have not asked him to come and defend Hogwarts during he was away?
Unless Moody was already on something very important. But we don’t know anything about it.
Of all the people of the good side who were at the Ministry at the end of OotP, he is the only one we don’t know what he has been doing during that year. The only mentions of his name in HBP were some insignificant ones at the Burrow and his presence at the Dumbledore’s funerals.
I daresay it’s enough for us to wonder if JRK have had this information missing on purpose, isn’t it?

dehartah
August 18th, 2006, 4:15 am
WONDERFUL THEORY! However, I just don't agree. I love the way this is written, but like so many have said before, a lot of things just don't fit. The DE's brand isn't on Moody, the theory is based off of 1 possible and probable mistake on either JK's part or Scrimingours (hope it isn't spelled wrong) mistake. I love JK's work and I'm not trying in the least to degrade it, but she know's as well as we all do that she HAS made mistakes similar to this before. Yes, this could have been intentional and your theory could be perfectly right, but I'm just not sure. Actually, I just don't think so. On a different note, however, I do think that Dumbledore knew of the Snape/Malfoy plot and the unbreakable vow and I think he wanted Snape to do it to save Malfoy. I don't know, I could be off, but I also don't think that Snape is entirly horrible and I think there are big clues that point to the fact that maybe he HAD to kill Dumbledore because he knew there were more important things, like continuing to spy on Voldemort. I have found what I believe to be a lot of clues, but my favorite to support this is that Snape obviously didn't want to make that unbreakable vow. I may be utterly and completly wrong just like the Harmony shippers (sorry, but JK said herself that Harmony just wasn't ever going to set sail), but at least I have something to hope for, that good will prevail in Snape after all. Okay, I'm done.

WONDERFUL THEORY! However, I just don't agree. I love the way this is written, but like so many have said before, a lot of things just don't fit. The DE's brand isn't on Moody, the theory is based off of 1 possible and probable mistake on either JK's part or Scrimingours (hope it isn't spelled wrong) mistake. I love JK's work and I'm not trying in the least to degrade it, but she know's as well as we all do that she HAS made mistakes similar to this before. Yes, this could have been intentional and your theory could be perfectly right, but I'm just not sure. Actually, I just don't think so. On a different note, however, I do think that Dumbledore knew of the Snape/Malfoy plot and the unbreakable vow and I think he wanted Snape to do it to save Malfoy. I don't know, I could be off, but I also don't think that Snape is entirly horrible and I think there are big clues that point to the fact that maybe he HAD to kill Dumbledore because he knew there were more important things, like continuing to spy on Voldemort. I have found what I believe to be a lot of clues, but my favorite to support this is that Snape obviously didn't want to make that unbreakable vow. I may be utterly and completly wrong just like the Harmony shippers (sorry, but JK said herself that Harmony just wasn't ever going to set sail), but at least I have something to hope for, that good will prevail in Snape after all. Okay, I'm done.

EmmaC
August 23rd, 2006, 6:18 pm
I must say it's been absolutely brilliant to read all the feedback both for and against the theory. I really liked some of the other suggestions, like for example that Scrimgeour was trying to catch Harry out. There was something I thought of afterwards though, and I've seen that a few people have brought it up in their posts. How would someone simply impersonating a Death Eater get through a barrier requiring a dark mark? Excellent question. However in the HBP edition I have (UK Hardback) Tonks recounts that the DE's who made it up to the tower cast the barrier behind them, ergo they didn't need to pass through it. So the only person who actually did pass through the barrier (as far as I can tell) was Snape. Hmm interesting!

elyssa
October 22nd, 2006, 8:58 am
so ok, suppose it really was Moody, but how did he have a ready polyjuice potion? did he just think, "hey i might need this tonight so i'll just bring it with me"? polyjuice potion takes a month (please correct me if im wrong) to prepare and (i believe) that the Order didn't really know that the DEs were there except when they already saw them. and it doesn't make sense why moody will even bother to change the stupefied body to the petrified body. what will be the point? :no:

Phil_Stone
November 1st, 2006, 7:07 am
donKA- I think the Enormous Blond Deatheater had been confunded, as Hermione did to Cormac during the Quiditch tryouts. If he meant to kill, but aimed badly he might well have accidently hit other deatheaters. Would a member of the Order have done that?

donKA
November 10th, 2006, 8:53 am
donKA- I think the Enormous Blond Deatheater had been confunded, as Hermione did to Cormac during the Quiditch tryouts. If he meant to kill, but aimed badly he might well have accidently hit other deatheaters. Would a member of the Order have done that?

good point. But that could have drawn the attention of the other DEs on him, and maybe he meant to remain undercover for longer. In fact, he leaves with Snape and Draco so he could be the person allowing to keep touch with them and the DEs. It is curious to note that he leaves with the two people whose role are probably the most ambiguous and unclear.

Calaliel
January 24th, 2007, 3:30 am
i think that scrimgeour just thought harry would slip up and correct him on the wrong spell and by doing that, admit he was on the tower.

i like this idea. because scrimgeour never seemed stupid enough to mix up spells, but he does seem clever enough to try to trick harry. but they wasn't any mention of harry reacting to this mix up. which kind of leads me to believe that maybe rowling made a mistake, not to blame the creator, she's amazing, but even writers make mistakes.