Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v4

This is on the assumption that Snape actually cares that some of Voldemort’s followers doesn’t trust him.
People seem to be missing one important reason why good Snape might have taken that vow. Snape didn't know what Draco's plan was, and we see him trying to get it out of him when Harry overhears them. If Narcissa, and particularly if Draco, fully trusted Snape, it would be much much easier for Dumbledore to protect Hogwarts, himself, and Draco. Dumbledore's plan all along seems to have been to wait for Draco to execute his plan and save him then by faking his and Narcissa's deaths. Good Snape would have taken the vow in order to help that plan along, particularly because he wanted to protect Draco anyway. He would hope that Draco would tell Snape what Draco had in mind, and Snape could report it to Dumbledore so they could figure out a counterplan.

Snape knowing Occlumency is a double-edged sword. Yes, it is beneficial from Voldemort's point of view because Dumbledore would not be able to use Legillimency on Snape. On the other hand, Voldemort would never know what Snape may be hiding from him. Just as Draco had Bellatrix teach him Occlumency, I believe Snape learned it from someone other than Voldemort. I just don't see Voldemort as being much of a helpful kind of guy, willing to teach his Death Eaters any special skills.

I agree. It would be detrimental to Voldemort to teach his Death Eaters Occlumency and Legilmency.
Dumbledore could have taught Snape these skills, as they would come in handy for what Snape is or was doing for the Order. Snape would have to be able to hide his true thoughts from Voldemort if he was to be successful as a spy.
However, if Snape was working for Voldemort the whole time, it would have been necessary for him to have these skills prior to speaking to Dumbledore about becoming a spy.
I'm guessing that these aren't skills that can be learned from a book (sorry Hermione...) so I'm going to assume that Snape was taught by someone. Perhaps a family member? If Snape is a half blood, his mother was a witch. I'd like to know who his mother's family was, if it was any of them, or perhaps his mother herself, who taught Snape.

Enter the vow: it might ensure that doubting deatheaters do trust him more. Could Snape expect it to be successful: Iffy at best. It doesn’t change Narcissa’s trust and it doesn’t seem to change Bella’s trust as well; if we look at Draco’s learning occlumency. The results of gaining more trust from other deatheaters aren’t there, so it is rather dubious to cite this as a motivation to taking the vow, because it failed.
Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake.
Bella seems impressed, anyway. As for teaching Draco Occlumency, don't forget that Dumbledore is a Legilimens too, so teaching Draco to resist makes sense.

Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake.
Bella seems impressed, anyway. As for teaching Draco Occlumency, don't forget that Dumbledore is a Legilimens too, so teaching Draco to resist makes sense.Astounded yes, but does she trust Snape after the vow? And Draco may have learned occlumency to hide from Dumbledore but that’s not what Draco says on learning occlumency:

Ah,… Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you occlumency, I see. What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, Draco?
I’m not trying to conceal anything from him. I just don’t want you butting in!
This learns us several things, but the impression it creates is that Bellatrix learned Draco occlumency so that Snape could be stopped. Stopping Dumbledore may have been another reason, but stopping Snape was a reason. And who is likely to have told Draco that occlumency should be used against Snape? This all doesn’t sound like Bellatrix trusts Snape after the vow. And besides that, my main point still stands: taking the vow did include the risk that Snape would lose Voldemort’s trust because he went behind his back; therefore I think it is unlikely that Snape would take a vow to ensure trust from the deatheaters.

The fact that we see Bellatrix been able to teach Draco occlumency is another interesting thing. Bellatrix claims, in OOTP, she has learned from Voldemort himself. Apparently Voldemort doesn’t mind that his followers learn occlumency, he probably taught it himself. And it has great benefits in his mind, he can sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore.

Given that Bellatrix knows occlumency it is more likely that Voldemort could have taught Snape. The benefit is clear and the downside posters have presented; that his deatheaters can hide their thoughts from Voldemort is not as big a downside for Voldemort: he believes he is such a superior legimilens that nobody can resist him.

We see Voldemort claiming in GOF the dark lord always knows. We see Snape using this argument in Spinner’s end and we see Bellatrix concurring to this argument: it is not possible to deceive the Dark Lord, the most accomplished legimilens the world has ever seen.
Voldemort sees no downside to learning his followers occlumency because he thinks that they can’t fool him.

Voldemort teaching Snape

Thus, when we assume that Voldemort sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore he would have to chose the lesser of two evils so to say:

1) Taking the risk that Dumbledore uncovers Snape
2) Teaching him a powerful ability which Snape could possibly use against him one day.

I think it really possible that LV chose the second option because he really wanted information on Dumbledore, the only wizard he ever feared.

From Voldemort's POV there are negative outcomes possible from both of your proposed evils:

The outcome of the first is that Snape earns a sentence in Azkaban.
Tha outcome of the second is Snape using Occlumency to fool Voldemort.

Which do you think Voldemort would be more concerned about? Especially since Snape was not a known Death Eater at that time. Dumbledore didn't know that until Snape went to him to change sides. Snape didn't need to show his Dark Mark to try to get the teaching position that would have gained him the position as Voldemort's spy inside Hogwarts.

Snape in his house mentioned to Narcissa and Bellatrix that he knew LV plans.

1) Why then he needs to know Draco plans?
2) Are them only "operational" issues? the plan is known, therefore is only a problem to implement it?
Snape is such a powerful guy that could have easily understood the "weak" Draco's attempt to kill DD and stop him.

In the episode when Harry almost killed Draco, Snape appears immediately after and helps Draco. That means Snape was on Draco's neck, chasing him and studying all his moves.
Why was Snape "sleeping" during the Deatheaters attack in the castle?
He could have possibly missed all the actions if not involved by the request for support for the "good" side, what was his plan?

A lot of questions, at the end I'm convinced that Snape is good but there are too many grey areas...

Snape in his house mentioned to Narcissa and Bellatrix that he knew LV plans.

1) Why then he needs to know Draco plans?
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that all Snape should need to know is that Draco is planning to kill Dumbledore, and that should be enough to stop Draco from succeeding? Clearly it wasn't, though. And Dumbledore knew too, but underestimated Draco. Draco did in fact have a good plan for getting Death Eaters into Hogwarts that Snape and Dumbledore failed to discover. Further, Harry had Kreacher and Dobby follow Draco, but even that wasn't enough to find out exactly what the plan was and stop it.

Snape probably hoped, reasonably, that if he swore to Draco's mother to help Draco, Draco would tell him about the plan, and Snape and Dumbledore could make sure everyone was safe. As it turns out, it would have very likely saved Dumbledore's life if Snape had managed to do so. Draco and Narcissa would very likely be safely hidden, and all the attacking Death Eaters would very likely have been caught.

Snape is not 'good' and never has been. Even in his younger years he was 'up to his eyeballs in the dark arts'. He may have been in the order, and obviously Dumbledore trusted him, but that never did mean he was 'good'. All it means is he was loyal to Dumbledore. The worst people in the world can be loyal. So no, he is not good and he can't come back to a side he was never on.

If we simply look at the canon we have about Snape, we have no reason to believe student Snape was anything but good. He was, apparently, interested in the Dark Arts. In fact, he still is. His breadth of knowledge of, and skills in, that area are what allow him to save Dumbledore, Katie Bell, and Draco in Book 6. His emphasis may or may not have changed, we have no way to know for sure.

There is good reason to believe that after finishing school, he became a Death Eater. This was an evil action, I would not care to defend it. However, there is also a good deal of canon suggesting that he himself came to realize that was a bad decision, and took steps to try and undo the damage he had done. Uness one takes the extreme position that ever having done something wrong makes someone permanently not good, this is all that one can ask.

Finally, in the course of the series, Snape has worked to protect Harry and the students at Hogwarts, and help the Order. In PS/SS he tried to save Harry's life from Quirrell. In CoS he taught the students the very useful defensive spell "Expelliarmus", which saved Harry's mind in that book, and his life in GoF. In PoA he went after Sirius (believed to be a dangerous murdered and Death Eater). In GoF he returned to Voldmeort as a spy. In OotP he (likely) told the Order about Voldmeort's desire to get the Prophecy, and certainly warned the Order about Harry's departure form Hogwarts.

HBP is less clear cut. I am confident, though, that Snape acted in accordance with Dumbledore's wishes at the end of that book.

If we simply look at the canon we have about Snape, we have no reason to believe student Snape was anything but good. I would like to see the canon which refers to Snape's student days.

We have a pensieve memory, the Lupin/Sirius comment about Snape being seeped in the Dark Arts, and a textbook with a Sectumsempra spell.

Have I forgotten something?

The pensieve memory shows Snape being victimized and then calling Lily a bad name. I don't see anything that shows Snape as being good.

I would like to see the canon which refers to Snape's student days.

We have a pensieve memory, the Lupin/Sirius comment about Snape being seeped in the Dark Arts, and a textbook with a Sectumsempra spell.

Have I forgotten something?

The pensieve memory shows Snape being victimized and then calling Lily a bad name. I don't see anything that shows Snape as being good.

I see nothing that shows him as bad, and tend to g9ive kids the bewnefit of the doubt.


To address your points:
Sirius/Lupin do not know WHY Snape was studying the Dark Arts, he could well be interested in DADA. This is a reasonable supposition considering Snape is very good at that subject as an adult.

As part of his interest in DA/DADA, Snape knew, or invented, the sectumsempra spell. So what? He seems to also know, or have invented, a counterspell.

And calling someone a bad name after being pushed around, choked with a bunch of soap, and flipped upside down isn't 'bad', in my opinion. It is stupid and emotional.

Astounded yes, but does she trust Snape after the vow? And Draco may have learned occlumency to hide from Dumbledore but that’s not what Draco says on learning occlumency:

The unbreakeble vow
Ah,… Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you occlumency, I see. What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, Draco?
I’m not trying to conceal anything from him. I just don’t want you butting in!"Him" or "your master" being Voldemort, in this case, and not Dumbledore. Snape is presumably still reporting to Voldemort at that time, and Draco, believing Snape to be a loyal Death Eater, would expect Snape to tell Voldemort what he found out. But I also think Draco's response is a typical lashing out or "answering back" and is therefore not the entire answer to the question. He's telling Snape, "Go away - you won't learn anything from me!" But the worst thing for Draco (or so he believes) would be if Dumbledore discovered the plot and killed Draco or sent him away to be killed by Voldemort.

I think Snape is good. I don't know why, but I don't think he went over to the bad side. It's possible that him and Dumbledore were planning this. That they both knew what was happening and they maybe came up with the idea that if it comes down to it, that Dumbeldore will have to die, it will have to happen. It could have all been plan.

Or Draco just wanted to prove himself. It was HIS task, given to HIM by the Dark Lord himself. But of course it's also possible that he wasn't sure about where Snape's loyalty was.

Or Draco just wanted to prove himself. It was HIS task, given to HIM by the Dark Lord himself. But of course it's also possible that he wasn't sure about where Snape's loyalty was.

I agree with your point. I think Bellatrix was so astounded by the Vow because she really had had her doubts, and the Vow settled it for her. Once she got home and had time to think it over, though, I am sure she decided this was a move by Snape in the popular Death Eater sport of jockeying for the title of Dark Lord's favorite. And this is where Draco got the idea that Snape was out to take over his asignment and steal his glory.

I think it also makes psychological sense for Draco to want to do it alone, at least initially. He is approaching wizarding world adulthood in this book (He turns 17 in June sometime). He has been recruited in his father's stead, he thinks. It is natural for him to want to prove himself worthy and capable. Snape, as his father's friend and a favorite teacher, is another parental figure, so rejecting his help and advice is a typical teenage guy out to prove he can do a man's job kind of thing, it seems to me.

Later in the year he might be regretting his earlier rejection of Snape's offered assistance, but he may not believe he can accept, at that late date, after what has passed between them.

From Voldemort's POV there are negative outcomes possible from both of your proposed evils:

The outcome of the first is that Snape earns a sentence in Azkaban.
Tha outcome of the second is Snape using Occlumency to fool Voldemort.

Which do you think Voldemort would be more concerned about?
Voldemort generally wouldn´t care if Snape or any of his other DEs ended up in Azkaban other than that Voldermort would have preferred to kill off his now uncovered spy before he could be questioned by the Law enforcement people and maybe give them valuable information.

Therefore, I think it´s still possible that Voldemort taught Snape Legilimency/Occlumency. But, even if Snape learnt it otherwise, I feel that does not help in answering the thread´s question. :D

Especially since Snape was not a known Death Eater at that time. Dumbledore didn't know that until Snape went to him to change sides. Snape didn't need to show his Dark Mark to try to get the teaching position that would have gained him the position as Voldemort's spy inside Hogwarts.At that time, when Snape applied for the teaching post, the war was at it´s high and I think Dumbledore made a thorough investigation on anyone before allowing him to teach children at Hogwarts. Especially since a) Dumbledore knew he was a target of Voldemort and b) lots of children of people opposing Voldemort attended Hogwarts. I think Dumbledore was more careful with whom he employed than at any time before the war.

I think it also makes psychological sense for Draco to want to do it alone, at least initially. He is approaching wizarding world adulthood in this book (He turns 17 in June sometime). He has been recruited in his father's stead, he thinks. It is natural for him to want to prove himself worthy and capable. Snape, as his father's friend and a favorite teacher, is another parental figure, so rejecting his help and advice is a typical teenage guy out to prove he can do a man's job kind of thing, it seems to me.Very good point, zgirnius. I agree. And with the rest of your post as well.

Snape Is Not Good He Has And Allways Will Be Bad He Was One Ofvoldermorts Followers So How Can He Be Good!!!!! Hes Is Bad But Extremely Funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that all Snape should need to know is that Draco is planning to kill Dumbledore, and that should be enough to stop Draco from succeeding? Clearly it wasn't, though. And Dumbledore knew too, but underestimated Draco. Draco did in fact have a good plan for getting Death Eaters into Hogwarts that Snape and Dumbledore failed to discover. Further, Harry had Kreacher and Dobby follow Draco, but even that wasn't enough to find out exactly what the plan was and stop it.

Snape probably hoped, reasonably, that if he swore to Draco's mother to help Draco, Draco would tell him about the plan, and Snape and Dumbledore could make sure everyone was safe. As it turns out, it would have very likely saved Dumbledore's life if Snape had managed to do so. Draco and Narcissa would very likely be safely hidden, and all the attacking Death Eaters would very likely have been caught.

What I meant was that Snape, according to what he told Narcissa and Bella in his house, knew about the plan. Therefore I can also imagine that DD knew as well, according to different hints he gives in the book.
What I cannot understand is how such powerful, experienced and "senior" wizards such as Dumbledore and Snape do not have a sort of "B plan". When Snape gets into the tower, the Deatheaters and the merewolf are scared by him. It seems that Sanpe is really powerful and well respected.
If Harry could easily put 2 domestic elf to follow Draco, how wasn't possible to do something similar and more efficient for DD and Snape. They were caught in surprise by a very unexperienced wizards moving as an elephant into a crystal shop...

If we simply look at the canon we have about Snape, we have no reason to believe student Snape was anything but good. He was, apparently, interested in the Dark Arts. In fact, he still is. His breadth of knowledge of, and skills in, that area are what allow him to save Dumbledore, Katie Bell, and Draco in Book 6. His emphasis may or may not have changed, we have no way to know for sure.

There is good reason to believe that after finishing school, he became a Death Eater. This was an evil action, I would not care to defend it. However, there is also a good deal of canon suggesting that he himself came to realize that was a bad decision, and took steps to try and undo the damage he had done. Uness one takes the extreme position that ever having done something wrong makes someone permanently not good, this is all that one can ask.

Finally, in the course of the series, Snape has worked to protect Harry and the students at Hogwarts, and help the Order. In PS/SS he tried to save Harry's life from Quirrell. In CoS he taught the students the very useful defensive spell "Expelliarmus", which saved Harry's mind in that book, and his life in GoF. In PoA he went after Sirius (believed to be a dangerous murdered and Death Eater). In GoF he returned to Voldmeort as a spy. In OotP he (likely) told the Order about Voldmeort's desire to get the Prophecy, and certainly warned the Order about Harry's departure form Hogwarts.

HBP is less clear cut. I am confident, though, that Snape acted in accordance with Dumbledore's wishes at the end of that book.
I am as well, Dumbledore knew that he was becoming weaker and that he wouldn't be long for this earth...

There are many things about snape that seem to confuse. Did he really know the task assigned to Draco before his mother came and he made the unbreakable vow? Neither Narcissa or Bellatrix could find out from Voldemort or it would be considered treason if they were wrong. No matter what he was justified by killing Dumbledore because of the unbreakable vow. I think we also must remember what Phinneas Nigellus said at 12 Grimmuald Place in Ootp where he said that Slytherins are brave but would always save themselves.

Did he make an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore and that was what they were rowing about? I don't know if Dumbledore would sink to that level. But i do think that they were rowing about killing Dumbledore if it was necessary.


Snape was in my mind still teaching or atleast trying to when he left. He could have killed Harry many times and especially on the way out. Telling him he needs to close his mind and master wordless spells. he stopped the Death Eater giving him the Cruciatus curse which wouldn't have killed him.

One of my biggest questions is whether Snape knows about the Horcruxes or not. Dumbledore trusts him so much and I cant see a scenario where Snape would not know. And snape helped him after he got the ring which would make me believe he knows. But that would truly show that he is ultimately good because Then Voldemort would know about The Locket and the ring if he was bad. any info on that would be very helpful (Did Dumbledore ever say that only he and Harry knows). Did Dumbledore ever say how he got the ring and what happened to his hand. So that still has to be figured out in book 7 probably by Snape letting Harry know.

If Snape is still good how is he going to regain the trust of Harry(impossible)? That is the only scenario i could possibly think of is by telling him about the previous horcruxes and helping him in the future. If Snape is good will Harry kill him before he finds out. But think how great of a Wizard he is. A Potions Master. Capable of fooling either Voldemort or Dumbledore. Able to make up his own spells. Either way Snape is probably the second most valuable asset to either side.(behind Harry on the good and Voldie on the bad.)

Ok, I think this is correct. Snape knows about the Horcruxes, and needs to be there at the end to help Harry. Who knows, maybe he's out hunting Horcruxes while Harry is at the wedding and GH, etc? Maybe Harry's search for Horcruxes turns up more "already broken" curses, as someone (like Snape) is ahead of him, every step of the way? And at the end, Harry comes face-to-face with LV and has a split second to decide if Snape, who is at LV's right-hand side, is actually on 'the good' side?? A leap of faith, a sudden realization, and ZAP!, LV's screwed!

Man, I should write a fanfiction...

If Harry could easily put 2 domestic elf to follow Draco, how wasn't possible to do something similar and more efficient for DD and Snape.
1) They apparently underestimated Draco. Dumbledore admitted on top of the tower that he didn't think Draco would be able to get Death Eaters into Hogwarts.
2) It's hard to imagine what they could have done to find out the plan that would have worked better than following Draco. He was pretty careful, and he went into the Room of Requirement, so they would have needed to know what he needed it to be in order to get in and see what he was up to. Could Dumbledore and Snape have figured out what he needed from the room?
3) Dumbledore (and Snape) had to be careful not to put Draco in danger from Voldemort by letting anyone know that they were onto him. If they had followed Draco more closely or trapped him or something, Voldemort would not have been pleased. This is the reason Dumbledore gives on the tower for not stopping Draco's more feeble attempts on his life.

Ok, I think this is correct. Snape knows about the Horcruxes, and needs to be there at the end to help Harry. ...

I agree and I think in Book 1 we have the clue. When Snape introduce himself, at the very first lesson, he refers to the fact that he knows how to stop death. At this moment I don't have the english translation, but in the Italian, it clearly says that he knows.
Could anyone check an english written book?

Snape was talking about potions, not magic in general. I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -Anyway it's likely that he knows about horcruxes in general, but that doesn't mean that he knows Voldemort used them.

The fact that Snape is supposed to know how to stop death, even if not by using the horcruxes but by using potions, couldn't give any value in this discussion?

Anyway it's likely that he knows about horcruxes in general, but that doesn't mean that he knows Voldemort used them.
Well, I don’t see why that is likely. Knowledge is pretty scarce, Hermione couldn’t find anything at Hogwarts and she even knew for what word she had to look. Young Riddle, the most brilliant student Hogwarts had ever seen and one who focused his brilliance on conquering dead, only learned the basics at some place, but nothing more. Dumbledore doesn’t share that knowledge, neither does Voldemort.

The only other persons we see knowing are very old wizards, Dumbledore and Slughorn, and the mysterious RAB. If RAB is indeed Regulus Black he had access to a very old library, we have had no indication that Snape had the same access. And we see that rich dark wizards like Lucius Malfoy had no idea at all. According to Dumbledore not a single deatheater knows what Voldemort used to become immortal.

On the whole the scope for Snape to obtain that knowledge is severely limited. We also know that Dumbledore didn’t learn from horcruxes from Snape, one more thing that points to Snape not knowing.

It is possible that Snape knows what a horcrux is but I wouldn’t say it is likely.

Whichever. It doesn't bring us any further on the topic of this thread. :D

I wouldn't be too sure about that. It seems reasonable to think that Dumbledore gave him the DADA job only after getting Slughorn as replacement for the Potions post.

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember him telling Harry not to "count his Owl's before they are delivered" - not exact quote... when it came to him having to have Snape again for a teacher... I'll go and double-check that tonight just to make sure though... and remember, Slughorn wasn't Potions teacher until after Harry and Dumbledore convinced him to come out of retirement, and when he said the quote that I had typed above, it was when they got to the Burrow - so most likely he had hired Snape as the DADA teacher beforehand...

I can't remember where it says that Snape didn't know about Voldemort's horcruxes except for Dumbledore saying that no one knows but him and Harry (did he even say that... ? :lol: )....this doesn't prove anything if I am right about that. I might be wrong and just forgetting, but, I think that if Snape knows about horcruxes in general (which isn't expected but completely possible)...he might have picked up that Voldemort would be attracted to the idea. And I don't think that the stopper to death bit in book one is relevent because he IS talking about potions at that point.
Hes a very smart man...you never know.

I believe Snape is good. In fact, I would be truely shocked if he turned out to be evil. If he was truely evil he would have killed/turned Harry over by now instead of blocking his curses. He is very clever and I don't believe we will know where his true loyalties lie until the end. I don't necessairly believe Dumbledore and him planned Dumbledores death I believe they discussed the possibility of something of this nature occuring. I think that is the chat Hagrid overheard. Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore, or perhaps save the boy with James's face (because it would bring up his remorse and guilt over Harrys parents deaths.)

I'm sure that if Snape were working for Voldemort (which he isn't) Harry would be pretty much dead; Snape must know about the Horcruxes, and if he's told Voldemort, Voldemort will be well at work at making more. If Snape's working for the OotP, then Harry's gained an ally he doesn't know about yet. But that's if we suppose that Harry'll give him a chance to explain himself before he kills him
If Snape is not working for the Order, and if he didn't do everything on Dumbledore's orders, then I doubt he'll come back to the good side. As Hagrid says, “When a wizard goes over to the Dark Side, there’s nothing and no one that matters to him any more.” ( or something like that. ) I think that's something that's mostly true. Redemption is not easily given, espeically not to the man who killed Albus Dumbledore (for Malfoy it's different, but don't get me into that.) And if he's been evil all this time I doubt he's going to come back to our side.

I agree and I think in Book 1 we have the clue. When Snape introduce himself, at the very first lesson, he refers to the fact that he knows how to stop death. At this moment I don't have the english translation, but in the Italian, it clearly says that he knows.
Could anyone check an english written book?

I believe what he says he can "stopper death". A stopper is like a cork or something you put in the top of a bottle. He could easily be referring to making a deadly poison--and if you put it in a container and sealed it, you would be basically "putting a stopper in death."

I've always been torn on the Sape good or bad thing. Part of me would like to trust in Dumbledore's judgement, and the other part of me hates Snape for what he's done to Harry and wouldn't be surprised if he was evil.

I think we'll get more information in the next book, and I'll reserve complete judgement until then! :)

I've always been torn on the Sape good or bad thing. Part of me would like to trust in Dumbledore's judgement, and the other part of me hates Snape for what he's done to Harry and wouldn't be surprised if he was evil.

I think we'll get more information in the next book, and I'll reserve complete judgement until then! :)

I feel the same way about him... until book 7 comes out, I am on the fence about Snape :p... :lol:

I think that Snape is good, and that he has a good reason for betraying Dumbledore. I have no idea what that good reason might be, but Dumbledore has never trusted anyone that didn't come through for him. I believe that Snape is good and will somehow come through for Harry...Snape may not like him, but you can't forget that James saved his life...

I think that Snape is good, and that he has a good reason for betraying Dumbledore. I have no idea what that good reason might be, but Dumbledore has never trusted anyone that didn't come through for him. I believe that Snape is good and will somehow come through for Harry...Snape may not like him, but you can't forget that James saved his life...

I agree -- Dumbledore took quite awhile deciding once and for all if he trusted him completely, he most likely was thinking over why he should trust him, something that he didn't tell Harry about why he trusted him...

I agree -- Dumbledore took quite awhile deciding once and for all if he trusted him completely, he most likely was thinking over why he should trust him, something that he didn't tell Harry about why he trusted him...
If you mean the time when Dumbledore hesitated for a bit before making up his mind and saying that he trusted Snape, that can be interpreted two ways. One way is that Dumbledore really was reviewing his reasons for trusting Snape and coming to the conclusion that he was right. The other is that he hesitated because he was evaluating the possibility of telling Harry the truth - the real reason he trusts Snape. Because I don't think he told Harry the whole truth there. There must be more.

If you mean the time when Dumbledore hesitated for a bit before making up his mind and saying that he trusted Snape, that can be interpreted two ways. One way is that Dumbledore really was reviewing his reasons for trusting Snape and coming to the conclusion that he was right. The other is that he hesitated because he was evaluating the possibility of telling Harry the truth - the real reason he trusts Snape. Because I don't think he told Harry the whole truth there. There must be more.

I definitely agree with you here anabel, there had to be some info that he couldn't have told Harry or else Snape's position as spy for the Order would possibly have been compromised...

If you mean the time when Dumbledore hesitated for a bit before making up his mind and saying that he trusted Snape, that can be interpreted two ways. One way is that Dumbledore really was reviewing his reasons for trusting Snape and coming to the conclusion that he was right. The other is that he hesitated because he was evaluating the possibility of telling Harry the truth - the real reason he trusts Snape. Because I don't think he told Harry the whole truth there. There must be more.I always interpreted it as the second option. We will find out in HP7 about the reason(s) why Dumbledore trusted Snape. I really think his hesitation here meant that he was pondering the possibility to tell Harry the reason. Dumbledore had several opportunities to tell Harry about it, but he always stays vague about it. In HBP Harryquestions Dumbledore about Snape more than once . Then Harry found out via Trelawney that it was Snape who had reported the prophecy to Voldemort and when he confronts Dumbledore about it the latter still is not willing to convey his reason. It could be that it was not the right time then because they were in a hurry to leave for the cave. But maybe it was a narrative tool of JKR´s to keep this a secret that will not be revealed before HP7 comes out. ;)

As for the nature of this reason, I think Fawkesfan1 could be right. Maybe it would compromise Snape´s status as a spy.

I really think his hesitation here meant that he was pondering the possibility to tell Harry the reason. Dumbledore had several opportunities to tell Harry about it, but he always stays vague about it.
<snip>
As for the nature of this reason, I think Fawkesfan1 could be right. Maybe it would compromise Snape´s status as a spy.
I agree. Dumbledore says that Snape felt bad about how the prophecy was interpreted and that he believes that's Snape's greatest regret and the reason he returned. He doesn't say that's the reason he trusts Snape, and his wording pretty clearly implies that's NOT why he trusts Snape. He trusts Snape completely, so it can't really be because he believes that's Snape's greatest regret, right?

As for why Dumbledore didn't tell Harry, I think the two most likely reasons are that He was worried that Harry would accidentally blow Snape's cover, or that he had given Snape some sort of promise that he wouldn't reveal it, i.e. because it's something Snape is determined to keep private.

I agree. Dumbledore says that Snape felt bad about how the prophecy was interpreted and that he believes that's Snape's greatest regret and the reason he returned. He doesn't say that's the reason he trusts Snape, and his wording pretty clearly implies that's NOT why he trusts Snape. He trusts Snape completely, so it can't really be because he believes that's Snape's greatest regret, right? Yes, that´s how I see it as well. Telling Harry about the reason why Snape returned sounded to me vague and imcomplete somehow. As if something was missing. (But maybe I´m imagining things :lol: ). There must be more to it and to be honest I expect a revelation in HP7 that will completely amaze me (oh, poor JKR, has set herself high standards :D )

As for why Dumbledore didn't tell Harry, I think the two most likely reasons are that He was worried that Harry would accidentally blow Snape's cover, I´m not sure about this reaon, now that I have thought about it a bit since my last post. Dumbledore has entrusted Harry with the knowledge about the Horcruxes, which is supposed to be a big big secret, therefore I think Dumbledore would trust Harry to be able not to blow Snape´s cover......

or that he had given Snape some sort of promise that he wouldn't reveal it, i.e. because it's something Snape is determined to keep private......That´s why I tend to this explanation. I could be proven completely wrong in the last book of course. :D

I´m not sure about this reaon, now that I have thought about it a bit since my last post. Dumbledore has entrusted Harry with the knowledge about the Horcruxes, which is supposed to be a big big secret, therefore I think Dumbledore would trust Harry to be able not to blow Snape´s cover......
I agree that Dumbledore certainly doesn't expect Harry to reveal the secret of why he trusts Snape. What I really mean is that maybe Dumbledore needs Harry to not actually trust Snape, or at least have some doubt remaining, in case of something like what happened on the tower. If Harry had known Dumbledore's real reason for trusting Snape, I suspect he may have continued to trust Snape even after Snape killed Dumbledore. If that happened, Harry might have had a hard time acting like he didn't trust Snape, which may have revealed that Snape was really good. The secret of exactly why Harry and Dumbledore trusted Snape would still be secret, but the fact that Snape was really on their side might be accidentally revealed.

With the Horcrux knowledge, it seems to me it'd be easier for all of that to stay secret.

.....That´s why I tend to this explanation. I could be proven completely wrong in the last book of course. :D
I tend toward the second explanation too, for the record.

I agree that Dumbledore certainly doesn't expect Harry to reveal the secret of why he trusts Snape. What I really mean is that maybe Dumbledore needs Harry to not actually trust Snape, or at least have some doubt remaining, in case of something like what happened on the tower. If Harry had known Dumbledore's real reason for trusting Snape, I suspect he may have continued to trust Snape even after Snape killed Dumbledore. If that happened, Harry might have had a hard time acting like he didn't trust Snape, which may have revealed that Snape was really good. The secret of exactly why Harry and Dumbledore trusted Snape would still be secret, but the fact that Snape was really on their side might be accidentally revealed. Ah, now I see. That is a good explanation. On the other hand, Dumbledore tells Harry time and again that he truts Snape. But nevertheless, Dumbledore knew probably that his mere comment about trusting Snape completely would not convince Harry. Telling him the reason on the other hand could.

With the Horcrux knowledge, it seems to me it'd be easier for all of that to stay secret.Absolutely. Because with the Horcruxes no emotions are involved. It´s just that: Knowledge. Fact. With Snape, Harry has a history and it´s personal and full of hurt feelings.

First off…I apologize if someone has already brought this up on this thread (It is a fairly obvious point—yet somehow I just now realized it while re-reading OOTP)

If Snape was (at the time of OOTP) working for Voldemort, why would he have alerted Order members that Harry had gone to the Department of Mysteries to rescue Sirius? He could have very easily ignored Harry’s cryptic message (“He has Padfoot in the place where it is hidden!”), and then later told Dumbledore that he had not understood the message. Yet instead, he went to OOTP headquarters and alerted order members…why would he have done this if his allegiances lie with voldemort?

Again, I’m sorry if this point has already been discussed here!

SNAPE IS GOOD!! At least I hope he is... I'm sure many other people have posted this reason, but... Dumbledore knew about Snape's Unbreakable Vow! He told Snape to kill him if it finally came to that! That was what the "Severus... please..." was for, Dumbledore was reminding Snape that he had to do it, or else the Order would be losing two of its most important members instead of one! If Snape hadn't killed him, DD would've died anyway because of that horrid potion, and Snape would die for not having fulfilled his oath! I hope this is true!!! Please, Jo...?

Just read my signature. :p

I'll be sooo mad if he turns out bad. :grumble:

SNAPE IS GOOD!! At least I hope he is... I'm sure many other people have posted this reason, but... Dumbledore knew about Snape's Unbreakable Vow! He told Snape to kill him if it finally came to that! That was what the "Severus... please..." was for, Dumbledore was reminding Snape that he had to do it, or else the Order would be losing two of its most important members instead of one! If Snape hadn't killed him, DD would've died anyway because of that horrid potion, and Snape would die for not having fulfilled his oath! I hope this is true!!! Please, Jo...?

Just read my signature. :p

I'll be sooo mad if he turns out bad. :grumble:


I agree he's good and that "Severus...please" is "Please kill me, don't wimp out on me now!", but I don't thnk it's because of the Unbreakable vow.

(1) Snape is too clever to get himself backed into a corner where he has to swear an Unbreakable Vow with 2 Death Eaters that he will assist a third Death Eater with some unidentified task (It's obviously going to be something deeply, deeply evil, isn't it?), He knew what he was swearing to.

(2) DD already seems to know that he has to look for a new Potions teacher at the time Snape swears the Unbreakable Vow. Which means he's already decided to give Snape the cursed DADA job. Which means he already knows that Snape will be leaving Hogwarts by the end of the year.

I think DD had already decided he would need to die a sacrificial death in order to affect some deep magic and had asked Snape to kill him already. Snape could quite happily swear the Unbreakable vow, because he was being asked to do something he and DD had already planned to do, anyway.

Either that, or DD knew that Voldy had asked Draco to kill him, before Narcissa came to spinner's end. Having Snape (who, as a DE, has probably already killed) kill him would be better than letting Draco risk rending his soul by becoming a killer, or being killed himself for failing.

First off…I apologize if someone has already brought this up on this thread (It is a fairly obvious point—yet somehow I just now realized it while re-reading OOTP)

If Snape was (at the time of OOTP) working for Voldemort, why would he have alerted Order members that Harry had gone to the Department of Mysteries to rescue Sirius? He could have very easily ignored Harry’s cryptic message (“He has Padfoot in the place where it is hidden!”), and then later told Dumbledore that he had not understood the message. Yet instead, he went to OOTP headquarters and alerted order members…why would he have done this if his allegiances lie with voldemort?

Again, I’m sorry if this point has already been discussed here!
I've brought that up before, and I completely agree with you. The most common response is that people say Snape delayed alerting the Order, and if he were truly loyal to Dumbledore, the Order would have arrived sooner than they did. I don't buy that, though, particularly because I don't think there's any way Voldemort would want Snape to do that. It risks losing the prophecy, and there's no real gain for Voldemort's side. Plus, if Snape thought it wouldn't help the Order to alert them so late, but did it so Dumbledore would trust him more, that wouldn't work. It'd be easier for Dumbledore to believe that Snape just didn't know Harry went to the Ministry than it would be for Dumbledore to believe Snape took much longer than he should have to alert the Order.

SNAPE IS GOOD!! At least I hope he is... I'm sure many other people have posted this reason, but... Dumbledore knew about Snape's Unbreakable Vow! He told Snape to kill him if it finally came to that! That was what the "Severus... please..." was for, Dumbledore was reminding Snape that he had to do it, or else the Order would be losing two of its most important members instead of one! If Snape hadn't killed him, DD would've died anyway because of that horrid potion, and Snape would die for not having fulfilled his oath! I hope this is true!!! Please, Jo...?

Just read my signature. :p

I'll be sooo mad if he turns out bad. :grumble:I agree -- even though I think that he'll turn out to be an anti-hero, someone who doesn't have the "traditional" heroic qualities, but is still on the side of good ;).

So will I -- it would make the series rather pointless, besides Harry needs to get over the animosity that he has towards Snape in order to defeat Voldemort with a clear conscience and with the power of his love.

I've brought that up before, and I completely agree with you. The most common response is that people say Snape delayed alerting the Order, and if he were truly loyal to Dumbledore, the Order would have arrived sooner than they did. I don't buy that, though, particularly because I don't think there's any way Voldemort would want Snape to do that. It risks losing the prophecy, and there's no real gain for Voldemort's side. Plus, if Snape thought it wouldn't help the Order to alert them so late, but did it so Dumbledore would trust him more, that wouldn't work. It'd be easier for Dumbledore to believe that Snape just didn't know Harry went to the Ministry than it would be for Dumbledore to believe Snape took much longer than he should have to alert the Order.

I know, I see no reason why Voldemort would have wanted Snape to alert the order at all…unless…well…ok. I was arguing about this with someone about this (who believes that Snape is evil) and his theory is that Voldemort ordered Snape to tell the order because he wanted to lure Dumbledore there. However I disagree with this for 2 reasons,

1) Voldemort truly is afraid of Dumbledore…he wouldn’t go seeking a battle with him

and...

2) Voldemort really really wanted the prophecy. He would not have done anything that could foil his plans…and if anybody could foil them it would be Dumbledore. Even if Voldemort did want to duel Dumbledore he would not have done it the day he was trying to obtain the prophecy.

I know, I see no reason why Voldemort would have wanted Snape to alert the order at all…unless…well…ok. I was arguing about this with someone about this (who believes that Snape is evil) and his theory is that Voldemort ordered Snape to tell the order because he wanted to lure Dumbledore there. However I disagree with this for 2 reasons,

1) Voldemort truly is afraid of Dumbledore…he wouldn’t go seeking a battle with him

and...

2) Voldemort really really wanted the prophecy. He would not have done anything that could foil his plans…and if anybody could foil them it would be Dumbledore. Even if Voldemort did want to duel Dumbledore he would not have done it the day he was trying to obtain the prophecy.
I completely agree. The time and setting were terrible from Voldemort's perspective for a duel with Dumbledore. If he loses, all those Death Eaters are caught and the prophecy is lost. Plus he's at the ministry, and if a large contingent of aurors showed up, he definitely loses.

Other people suggested that Voldemort could have ordered Snape to wait, then alert the Order because he thought they'd be too late to save Harry and the Prophecy, but then the Ministry would arrive and blame the Order for the break in and so on, plus Dumbledore would hopefully trust Snape more for alerting the Order.

I see several problems with that idea too.
1) Voldemort didn't know that Snape would have any reason to guess that Harry had gone to the Ministry. He couldn't have known that Harry would give Snape a coded message and so on. If Harry hadn't tried to tell Snape, and then Snape told the Order to go to the Ministry, it would definitely be revealed as a trap and Snape would be revealed as a DE.
2) It wouldn't make Dumbledore trust Snape more, because Dumbledore would know about the delay.
3) Voldemort would not have risked the possibility that the delay would be too short, and the Order would get there on time to save the prophecy. Dumbledore's trust in Snape and what the Ministry decided to do when they found the evidence of the break in are both insignificant compared to the importance of the prophecy for Voldemort.

I completely agree. The time and setting were terrible from Voldemort's perspective for a duel with Dumbledore. If he loses, all those Death Eaters are caught and the prophecy is lost. Plus he's at the ministry, and if a large contingent of aurors showed up, he definitely loses. I completely agree. It makes no sense at all for Voldemort to let Snape send the Order to the Ministry, belated or not. For Snape to keep up his spy status it would have been sufficient to declare to Dumbledore that he just didn´t know Harry and Co. were on the way to the Ministry.

Other people suggested that Voldemort could have ordered Snape to wait, then alert the Order because he thought they'd be too late to save Harry and the Prophecy, but then the Ministry would arrive and blame the Order for the break in and so on, plus Dumbledore would hopefully trust Snape more for alerting the Order.As I said above, Dumbledore´s trust in Snape would not have been shaken. He could have explained everything away easily. And Voldemort´s main objective was to obtain the Prophecy. Dealing the Order a big blow would have been an additional benefit, but the risk of losing the prophecy was too high.

I see several problems with that idea too.
1) Voldemort didn't know that Snape would have any reason to guess that Harry had gone to the Ministry. He couldn't have known that Harry would give Snape a coded message and so on. If Harry hadn't tried to tell Snape, and then Snape told the Order to go to the Ministry, it would definitely be revealed as a trap and Snape would be revealed as a DE. :tu: Very good reason. Voldemort couldn´t have known that Umbridge and the IS were holding Harry and Co. in Umbridge´s office and that Snape was called to come or that Harry would try to give Snape this coded message. Too many random variable to plan something like that out.

3) Voldemort would not have risked the possibility that the delay would be too short, and the Order would get there on time to save the prophecy. Dumbledore's trust in Snape and what the Ministry decided to do when they found the evidence of the break in are both insignificant compared to the importance of the prophecy for Voldemort. :agree:

I completely agree. The time and setting were terrible from Voldemort's perspective for a duel with Dumbledore. If he loses, all those Death Eaters are caught and the prophecy is lost. Plus he's at the ministry, and if a large contingent of aurors showed up, he definitely loses.

Other people suggested that Voldemort could have ordered Snape to wait, then alert the Order because he thought they'd be too late to save Harry and the Prophecy, but then the Ministry would arrive and blame the Order for the break in and so on, plus Dumbledore would hopefully trust Snape more for alerting the Order.

I see several problems with that idea too.
1) Voldemort didn't know that Snape would have any reason to guess that Harry had gone to the Ministry. He couldn't have known that Harry would give Snape a coded message and so on. If Harry hadn't tried to tell Snape, and then Snape told the Order to go to the Ministry, it would definitely be revealed as a trap and Snape would be revealed as a DE.
2) It wouldn't make Dumbledore trust Snape more, because Dumbledore would know about the delay.
3) Voldemort would not have risked the possibility that the delay would be too short, and the Order would get there on time to save the prophecy. Dumbledore's trust in Snape and what the Ministry decided to do when they found the evidence of the break in are both insignificant compared to the importance of the prophecy for Voldemort.
To true...to true...its times like these when I think I am going to go mad. There is so much evidence that points to Snape being evil, and to him being good, and to him just working for himself (I change my mind on the matter almost daily so don't be surprised if you see me arguing both sides.)

A lot of evidence points to his allegiance to the order, but whenever I set my mind on this a little voice in my head reminds me of two things:

1) It says somewhere in the books (I can't remember exactly where...it may have just been a quote from Jo but I'm pretty sure it was in the actual text) that Dumbledore’s greatest weakness was always how much trust he put in the basic good nature of people. To me this seems like major foreshadowing.

and...

2) I just can't see Snape and Dumbledore making an agreement regarding Dumbledore’s murder...its just not Jo's style if you know what I mean.

I'm new to the thread so please posters and mods forgive repetition and simple-mindedness:

I am of the school that thinks Snape at least is WORKING for the good as a double agent but that book 7 will feature a big battle (all during the book and spectacularly and literally in The Great Last Battle) for Snape's soul, which will along with Harry's role in it and his own journey be ONE key element in whether Good vs. Evil wins.

Going along with my opinions about Snape being at least officially good (not NICE though) which I believe is reinforced by the fact that however he acts he does risk his life to save Harry; that I do think there is some kind of connection with Lily Potter; and also above all that DD trusts Snape so implicitly or says so, and his remorse.

But we really don't exactly know what DD means: He could just mean (although I don't believe this just being devil's advocate, almost literally here, I do think DD trusts Snape actually and deeply and DD is Jo's literary voice):
He could just mean that he KNOWS what Snape will do, the way that he knows what Draco will do, so that he can rest assured that good or not they will play into his long-laid plans.

It could also mean that he, knowing he is old soon to die anyway and weakened perhaps lethally even by The Potion, is willing to sacrifice himself to save others who may be redeemed--such as Draco. Would he prefer Snape to kill him because Draco is younger and more innocent? Is it possible this was a penance for Snape -- ie if for the good guys' sake and the Plan DD had to be killed and to fool Voldy a "DE" do it, Snape would to spare Draco; even though it would in many ways doom him , but which he had to keep/do, not just because of the Unbreakable Vow (which if he knew already he had to kill DD per plan, would have been no challenge/threat to make to Narcissa, and would have been an incredibly clever cover for a Double Agnent to pull off to fool Voldie--both the UE AND the murder itself, naturally)

DD might even have wanted/ordered/orchestrated somehow that Snape make the UV to Narcissa to double-ensure he wouldn't change his mind about killing DD later.

Or is it possible he (shudder) wants Snape to have killed for some reason? To (shudder) form a Horcrux? For some powers that only those who have killed may get?

But I am getting off my subject here, which is:

I don't know if this has been discussed here or anywhere else: But since I believe Snape is a "good" Double Agent for DD; and since for this to be so, the murder of DD would have to be a long-made PLAN with DD (per the: "What if I've changed my mind" "It's done" conversation Hagrid overeard). And since I really DO believe DD is dead (per JO)....this bothers me. some..

Isn't it true that the person uttering the AK or other unforgivable curses must be full of hate, want to cause pain, take pleasure in causing death/pain for them to actually WORK?

Then how would this work with Snape killing DD if it WERE a plan of DD's and Snape is "good" and loyal to him?

These are the only things I can think of:

a) DD was really already dying, or something/someone else killed him at that moment and to fool the DE's and LV per plan, they just made it LOOK like Snape had killed him. Or he killed him some ordinary way.

b) Is it possible some unbreakable vow--the one to Narcissa, or perhaps one we don't know about, maybe to DD himself, maybe to Lily even, can trump the AK/UC rule restrictions?

c) Does the hate, sadism, rage, pleasure in pain have to apply to the victim of the AK only? Could the fact that if it is a plan this AK vs DD would really be in service someday of destroying DD so that Snape was feeling hate and pleasure in the curse but toward someone not DD make it work? Or I never thought of this could DD wonder if HE (DD) was a Horcrux somehow?

I am very confused about how the AK could work because I do think DD IS dead; it was a plan; and Snape is good, although in a tortured unstable way since DD was his link to wizard-humanity and the one to whom he was loyal.

But the conditions necessary for the AK working have confused me. I go with some combination of choices in (a) above.

But if there has been earlier discussion on this; Canon from book, films or especially JKR interviews/website; or anyone has any thoughts/ideas, I'd love to hear.

Isn't it true that the person uttering the AK or other unforgivable curses must be full of hate, want to cause pain, take pleasure in causing death/pain for them to actually WORK?

Then how would this work with Snape killing DD if it WERE a plan of DD's and Snape is "good" and loyal to him?

These are the only things I can think of:

a) DD was really already dying, or something/someone else killed him at that moment and to fool the DE's and LV per plan, they just made it LOOK like Snape had killed him. Or he killed him some ordinary way.

Both the blackened hand, and the green potion, have been suggested as the reason why Dumbledore mught have been dying. A cool variant of the theory, recently discussed on the Snape: The Hero thread, is perhaps the potion and lake water that Harry sprinkled on Dumbledore were turning him into an Inferius, and Snape's action saved him from that fate.

c) Does the hate, sadism, rage, pleasure in pain have to apply to the victim of the AK only?
The answer is no: a Death Eater named Gibbon was killed by 'friendly fire' on the same night that Dumbledore died. The big blond death eater aimed a Killing Curse at Lupin, but he ducked and the curse killed Gibbon. So Snape could have used some hateful feelings about someone else to cast the curse.

There is a line of reasoning you have not thought of, as well. Snape, inventive guy that he is now known to be, might have invented a spell which has a jet of green light and lifts a person up. He could then have used this spell nonverbally to remove Dumbledore from the tower. This would make Dumbledore's cause of death the fall, or perhaps the green potion. Presumably this would have been part of a (failed, since Dumbledore is dead) plan to fake the killing.

Finally, there is my sentimental favorite. Snape tried to use the Killing Curse, because Dumbledore asked him to do it. But he didn't really mean it, so the spell failed to kill Dumbeldore instantly, as it was supposed to. Instead all that magical power had to go somewhere, so it blasted Dumbledore off the tower.

The evidence in support of the last two is the somewhat odd behavior of the spell Snape cast. Dumbledore was slumped down, yet the spell blasted him up in the air. Dumbledore's glasses stayed on his nose throughout. There was a trickle of blood on his mouth. And, Harry appeared to still be frozen by Dumbledore's spell until after Snape left with the Death Eaters, suggesting a time of death consistent with the fall, not the curse. There was a thread about this, just about the killing curse, but people sort of lost interest after Rowling announced Dumbledore is really dead, because of course the most interesting conclusion of this type of reasoning was that Dumbledore did not actually die.

Both the blackened hand, and the green potion, have been suggested as the reason why Dumbledore mught have been dying. A cool variant of the theory, recently discussed on the Snape: The Hero thread, is perhaps the potion and lake water that Harry sprinkled on Dumbledore were turning him into an Inferius, and Snape's action saved him from that fate.


The answer is no: a Death Eater named Gibbon was killed by 'friendly fire' on the same night that Dumbledore died. The big blond death eater aimed a Killing Curse at Lupin, but he ducked and the curse killed Gibbon. So Snape could have used some hateful feelings about someone else to cast the curse.

There is a line of reasoning you have not thought of, as well. Snape, inventive guy that he is now known to be, might have invented a spell which has a jet of green light and lifts a person up. He could then have used this spell nonverbally to remove Dumbledore from the tower. This would make Dumbledore's cause of death the fall, or perhaps the green potion. Presumably this would have been part of a (failed, since Dumbledore is dead) plan to fake the killing.

Finally, there is my sentimental favorite. Snape tried to use the Killing Curse, because Dumbledore asked him to do it. But he didn't really mean it, so the spell failed to kill Dumbeldore instantly, as it was supposed to. Instead all that magical power had to go somewhere, so it blasted Dumbledore off the tower.

The evidence in support of the last two is the somewhat odd behavior of the spell Snape cast. Dumbledore was slumped down, yet the spell blasted him up in the air. Dumbledore's glasses stayed on his nose throughout. There was a trickle of blood on his mouth. And, Harry appeared to still be frozen by Dumbledore's spell until after Snape left with the Death Eaters, suggesting a time of death consistent with the fall, not the curse. There was a thread about this, just about the killing curse, but people sort of lost interest after Rowling announced Dumbledore is really dead, because of course the most interesting conclusion of this type of reasoning was that Dumbledore did not actually die.

Tanks so much for all the info and thoughts.

We are actually on the same page: When I said that about in my earlier post about Snape killing him in "a more ordinary way" but making it look like the AK did it, I DID think exactly in fact of what you posit above, but didn't go into enough to be clear. So yes I agree.

And yes I should have thought about the friendly fire thinigie but: That killing curse WAS aimed at a hated enemy, who was immediately present on te premises (I mean by hated enemy a foe of DEs not a specific person) and it just went awry: But Snape would have to have been just THINKING of someone else far away (Snape to Harry: Time and Space matter in magic) not accidentally hitting someone else in the same room) while seeming to aim at DD.

Plus I wondered if there were special rules about especial cruelty about the AK specifically.

But mostly I already agreed with all you said, and you offered great new info and perspectives.

I know that this is somewhat off topic... but remember what Snape had told Harry at the end of HBP... "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" - I think that Snape really wanted Harry to learn how to use Non-Verbal Spells and Occulumency and I have some canon from OOTP that may back this up...

Even though Snape didn't teach Harry that well... it wasn't just his fault that Harry wasn't able to learn how to use Occulmency, Harry's stubborn behavior and his hatred for Snape also contributed...

He told Harry what he needed to know, perhaps not in the best way that he could though...

"Clear your mind, Potter," said Snape's cold voice "Let go of all emotion...."

But Harry's anger at Snape continued to pound through his veins like venom. Let go of his anger? He could as easily detach his legs....

"You're not doing it, Potter.... You will need more discipline than this... focus, now...."

"Get up!" said Snape sharply. "Get up! You are not trying, you are making no effort, you are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!"

"I-am-making-an-effort," he said through clenched teeth.

"I told you to empty yourself of emotion!"

"Yeah? Well, I 'm finding that hard at the moment," Harry snarled.

"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"

"I am not weak," said Harry in a low voice, fury now pumping through him so that he might attack Snape in a moment.

"Then prove it! Master yourself!" spat Snape. "Control your anger, discipline your mind! We shall try again! Get ready, now! Legilimens!"

"Explain yourself!", said Snape, who was standing over him, looking furious.

"I... dunno what happened," said Harry truthfully, standing up. "I've never seen that before. I mean, I told you, I've dreamed about that door... but it's never opened before...."

"You are not working hard enough!"

For some reason, Snape seemed angrier than he had done two minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories.

Fawkesfan: Yes, indeed!

This is also how I understand this scene. What makes Snape the angriest in the Occlumency lessons (aside from the end!) is when Harry fails, or especially, reveals an interest in seeing more of the visions he is getting from Voldemort. Harry hexing him, or breaking into his memories, is what he is supposed to be doing, and it does not get Snape angry. I don't think he's going out of his way to discourage Harry at all; rather, he is explaining what to do in a way that makes sense to him (Snape), and is frustrated that Harry seems not to be able, or interested, in following his instructions.

I think Snape may have the problem some very bright people have, in not being able to set the right level when they are teaching others. When he explains things in terms which to him seem as simple and clear as he can possibly make them, he doesn't get that still, it may not be simple enough, or, even if it is, some students may need to hear it a few times before they get it, or need more time to understand, and additional repetition to get things right.

Fawkesfan: Yes, indeed!

This is also how I understand this scene. What makes Snape the angriest in the Occlumency lessons (aside from the end!) is when Harry fails, or especially, reveals an interest in seeing more of the visions he is getting from Voldemort. Harry hexing him, or breaking into his memories, is what he is supposed to be doing, and it does not get Snape angry. I don't think he's going out of his way to discourage Harry at all; rather, he is explaining what to do in a way that makes sense to him (Snape), and is frustrated that Harry seems not to be able, or interested, in following his instructions.

I think Snape may have the problem some very bright people have, in not being able to set the right level when they are teaching others. When he explains things in terms which to him seem as simple and clear as he can possibly make them, he doesn't get that still, it may not be simple enough, or, even if it is, some students may need to hear it a few times before they get it, or need more time to understand, and additional repetition to get things right.

I agree, I had a teacher who was like that himself, he wasn't cruel like Snape though, he just couldn't teach what we needed to learn in the best way, on the other hand, when it came to things that we knew... :shrug: :rolleyes: , he taught them just fine... :lol:

Hello,

I am new to these discussion boards so please forgive me if this theory/suggestion has already been posted. I believe that Snape is an inherently negative person, and truly admires dark magic, and the power that comes with it however, I wonder if he is being compelled to work against Voldy by a deeper type of magic which is why Dumbledore trusts him so completely. In PoA we learn about the wizard/life debt that wormtail now owes Harry which is described as a very deep and powerful type of magic. We are also reminded that James saved Snape's life............it follows that Snape owed James a wizard debt, correct? Since Snape inadvertently got James killed by telling Voldy about the prophesy, would that debt revert to Harry?

Just a thought,

db

I read a theory on a thread somewhere that Dumbledore sacrificed himself in order to position Snape in LV's inner circle to give Harry yet another ally. If Snape owes Harry James Potters life debt, then like Wormtail, Harry will have two insiders right where he needs them. Only problem is Harry is so blinded by his hatred of Snape by end of HBP he's hell bent on destroying him as much as LV.

In my somewhat naive view (haven't long finished HBP - so not that long to give this much thought), I reckon Wormtail will betray LV to fulfil his life debt to Harry but it will be Snape who does the ultimate betrayal to fulfil his life debt to James and it will cost him his life - then all will come out that he's a triple agent ( I think) and Harry will feel like a real twit??

Coz, after reading the bit about poor Snape being bullied as his worst memory, you can't help but sympathise with the guy!!

I think he's been a good guy since he dobbed on Trelawney and DD to LV and I'll be devastated if Jo proves me wrong! ;-)

Mum 4 Lil n Fin

Hello,

I am new to these discussion boards so please forgive me if this theory/suggestion has already been posted.
:welcome: dbink! I hope you enjoy your time on the forums.

I believe that Snape is an inherently negative person, and truly admires dark magic, and the power that comes with it however, I wonder if he is being compelled to work against Voldy by a deeper type of magic which is why Dumbledore trusts him so completely. In PoA we learn about the wizard/life debt that wormtail now owes Harry which is described as a very deep and powerful type of magic. We are also reminded that James saved Snape's life............it follows that Snape owed James a wizard debt, correct? Since Snape inadvertently got James killed by telling Voldy about the prophesy, would that debt revert to Harry?


This theory has been suggested before, yes. To me, it does not seem to fit the facts of Dumbledore and Snape's interactions as shown in HBP.

First, the argument Hagrid overhears in the Forest. There are several reasonable theories I have read which explain what that was about. However, if Snape was doing whatever he and Dumbledore were arguing about because magic made him do it, he could hardly refuse, could he?

Second, on the Tower, Dumbledore seemed to be desperately asking Snape to do something. If Dumbledore was aware that some sort of powerful magic was making Snape do things, he might still phrase an order as a request, since he is a very polite person. But I very much doubt he would use a tone of voice that would scare Harry because of its desperateness That only makes sense if Dumbledore believed Snape was free to make a different choice than what Dumbledore wanted, and feared he would.

Finally, if the life debt to James is the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape, I don't see why he didn't say so to Harry when Harry asked him in "The Seer Overheard", or the Pensieve chapter of Goblet of fire. In GoF Dumbledore answers that the reason is between him and Snape, and in HBP he considers for a moment before simply stating he trusts Snape completely. My issue with this is that th elife debt to James is not a secret between Snape and Dumbledore-it is something Dumbledore was willing to talk to Harry about as early as PS/SS. For this reason, I believe the reason for Dumbledore's trust is as yet undisclosed, and is somethign we will learn in Book 7

In my somewhat naive view (haven't long finished HBP - so not that long to give this much thought), I reckon Wormtail will betray LV to fulfil his life debt to Harry but it will be Snape who does the ultimate betrayal to fulfil his life debt to James and it will cost him his life - then all will come out that he's a triple agent ( I think) and Harry will feel like a real twit??

Oh, I hope not! I really hope Harry and Snape meet up in Book 7 and have a chance to vent at each other. Finding out about it after Snape is dead would prevent this...and Snape and Harry venting at each other would be soo much fun to read!

I, too, however, fear that Snape will be making the ultimate sacrifice in Book 7.

I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but I am positive that Snape is good and that he and Dumbledore planned DD's death. I was wasn't sure about this until rereading HBP. After Ron is poisoned, and Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid are leaving the hospital wing, Hagrid lets slip that he overheard DD and Snape arguing. Hagrid says that DD is angry with Snape because Snape agreed to do it and now Snape wants to back out of it. I interpreted this as, Snape told DD about the Unbreakable Vow, and then Snape and DD started to plan DD's death. Now DD is angry with Snape because Snape doesn't want to kill DD. Now we are on the "Lightning-Struck Tower" and Snape arrives. Now some people are convinced that DD was pleading for his life, but what if he was pleading with Snape to carry out the plan. And then of course we all know what happens next.

Please don't be too harsh on me for my views.

I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but I am positive that Snape is good and that he and Dumbledore planned DD's death. I was wasn't sure about this until rereading HBP. After Ron is poisoned, and Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid are leaving the hospital wing, Hagrid lets slip that he overheard DD and Snape arguing. Hagrid says that DD is angry with Snape because Snape agreed to do it and now Snape wants to back out of it. I interpreted this as, Snape told DD about the Unbreakable Vow, and then Snape and DD started to plan DD's death. Now DD is angry with Snape because Snape doesn't want to kill DD. Now we are on the "Lightning-Struck Tower" and Snape arrives. Now some people are convinced that DD was pleading for his life, but what if he was pleading with Snape to carry out the plan. And then of course we all know what happens next.

Please don't be too harsh on me for my views.
That's actually a pretty common interpretation. Many people, including myself, think it would be very out of character for Dumbledore to beg for his life. It also seems pretty clear from Dumbledore's conversation with Malfoy that Dumbledore knew Malfoy was trying to kill Dumbledore all year. It makes sense, then, to think he also knew about the details of the unbreakable vow, since he would hear about both of those things from Snape. He basically told Harry that he understood more about the vow than Harry did, after all.

I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but I am positive that Snape is good and that he and Dumbledore planned DD's death. I was wasn't sure about this until rereading HBP. After Ron is poisoned, and Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid are leaving the hospital wing, Hagrid lets slip that he overheard DD and Snape arguing. Hagrid says that DD is angry with Snape because Snape agreed to do it and now Snape wants to back out of it. I interpreted this as, Snape told DD about the Unbreakable Vow, and then Snape and DD started to plan DD's death. Now DD is angry with Snape because Snape doesn't want to kill DD. Now we are on the "Lightning-Struck Tower" and Snape arrives. Now some people are convinced that DD was pleading for his life, but what if he was pleading with Snape to carry out the plan. And then of course we all know what happens next.
Please don't be too harsh on me for my views.
That's what I figured as well, scruffyg24 :). You are not alone in thinking that's what might of happened.

Hi!

My theory about Severus Snape is that he is not on the good side and not on the bad side. He is on his side. He does what is best for him. And that's a very dangerous game he plays. When he kills DD he does it because, hey, there are a bunch of Death Eaters there who believe that he is on their side. Dumbledore is obviosly not in the condition of being able to fight back. And overall, at the time, it seems to be better to be on Voldemort's side than on the other side.

I also think that Snape is a much more powerful wizard than we, Dumbledore and Voldemort know. I mean think about those things he wrote in his Potions-textbook when he was a student. Really advanced stuff. I think that there are also hints in the books about Snape being more than the eye can see, more powerful. I can't find the place right now but I think Lupin or perhaps someone else tells Harry that Snape is a very powerful wizard in book 5 or 6.

If Snape will turn out good or bad in book seven depends on who it looks like is going to win the war.

Snape against the world.:p

I am not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but I am positive that Snape is good and that he and Dumbledore planned DD's death. I was wasn't sure about this until rereading HBP. After Ron is poisoned, and Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid are leaving the hospital wing, Hagrid lets slip that he overheard DD and Snape arguing. Hagrid says that DD is angry with Snape because Snape agreed to do it and now Snape wants to back out of it. I interpreted this as, Snape told DD about the Unbreakable Vow, and then Snape and DD started to plan DD's death. Now DD is angry with Snape because Snape doesn't want to kill DD. Now we are on the "Lightning-Struck Tower" and Snape arrives. Now some people are convinced that DD was pleading for his life, but what if he was pleading with Snape to carry out the plan. And then of course we all know what happens next.

Please don't be too harsh on me for my views.

of course this view makes sense... i had been trying to ge tmy friend to understand this as well. both snape and dumbledore knew that because of the unbreakable vow, dumbledore had to die, or else snape would die - therefore causing the order to lose their spy, or inside man. it makes perfect sense in my eyes.

I used to really think that Snape was bad. I mean, although Harry had kind of always suspected Snape of still being a Death Eater, there was never any definite acusations, right? I thought that Rowling was kind of just bringing it out into the open in HBP when he killed Dumbledore. I mean, Dumbledore was pleading to Snape! I think if he was acting, that was a little much.

But then I was re-reading OoTP for the third time, and I read something interesting. Snape said something along the lines of "It's not your job to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters." Then Harry said something like "No, that's your job, isn't it?" And then Snape got a strange look on his face and smirked and said, "Yes, Potter, it is." I mean...is that not a little strange, too? Maybe Snape really is acting as the in between guy and he's really on the Order's side, but he's like a spy. Or maybe...he's a spy for Voldemort. Wow, I think I just got REALLY confused.

I used to really think that Snape was bad. I mean, although Harry had kind of always suspected Snape of still being a Death Eater, there was never any definite acusations, right? I thought that Rowling was kind of just bringing it out into the open in HBP when he killed Dumbledore. I mean, Dumbledore was pleading to Snape! I think if he was acting, that was a little much.

But then I was re-reading OoTP for the third time, and I read something interesting. Snape said something along the lines of "It's not your job to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters." Then Harry said something like "No, that's your job, isn't it?" And then Snape got a strange look on his face and smirked and said, "Yes, Potter, it is." I mean...is that not a little strange, too? Maybe Snape really is acting as the in between guy and he's really on the Order's side, but he's like a spy. Or maybe...he's a spy for Voldemort. Wow, I think I just got REALLY confused.
I felt the same way... then I saw that part as well, along with the fact that he REALLY wanted Harry to learn how to do Occulmency in OOTP... and he told him at the end of HBP - "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" At first this seemed like one of Snape's trademark snide remarks... but in reality he was giving him instructions ;)... telling him that he needed to learn how to do Non-Verbal Spells and Occlumency in order to have have a chance against Voldemort... if he was truly evil, why would he even bother telling him that?

I felt the same way... then I saw that part as well, along with the fact that he REALLY wanted Harry to learn how to do Occulmency in OOTP... and he told him at the end of HBP - "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" At first this seemed like one of Snape's trademark snide remarks... but in reality he was giving him instructions ;)... telling him that he needed to learn how to do Non-Verbal Spells and Occlumency in order to have have a chance against Voldemort... if he was truly evil, why would he even bother telling him that?On another sidenote, I still can´t get over the fact....with Voldemort penetrating Harry´s mind it was urgently necessary that Harry learnt Occlumency. It was highly important. Would Dumbledore have let Snape teach Harry if he hadn´t trusted him 100%? We still don´t know the "iron-clad" reason of Dumbledore´s trust, but it must be something really big. I understand why Dumbledore couldn´t teach Harry Occlumency at that time himself, but he could have found someone else. Nevertheless, he entrusted Snape.

On another sidenote, I still can´t get over the fact....with Voldemort penetrating Harry´s mind it was urgently necessary that Harry learnt Occlumency. It was highly important. Would Dumbledore have let Snape teach Harry if he hadn´t trusted him 100%? We still don´t know the "iron-clad" reason of Dumbledore´s trust, but it must be something really big. I understand why Dumbledore couldn´t teach Harry Occlumency at that time himself, but he could have found someone else. Nevertheless, he entrusted Snape.
I know, but it must have been something so important that even Harry couldn't not know until the time comes... I can't wait to find out why he trusted Snape so much :clap: ...

I also agree that he could have found someone else to teach him, but maybe he just didn't have the time to.

I don't mean to just pop in here like this, but seeing as my thread got closed, I'm wondering what you guys think of the quote from Snape in POA.

Severus Snape, Page 265, POA
Like Father, like Son, Potter! I have just saved your neck, you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black-- now get out of the way, or I will make you, GET OUT OF THE WAY, POTTER!


So the part I have bolded there, what do you think Snape meant?

So the part I have bolded there, what do you think Snape meant?This isn't exactly the right thread either...:) But I'm not gonna shuffle you from thread to thread, so:

Snape obviously, like most others, believed that Sirius had been the Secret Keeper. Thus James' failure to see the possibility of Sirius being a traitor caused his death. In Snapes mind this was due to arrogance. Now he suggested that Harry's arrogance was his reason to believe in Sirius, and that Sirius would have killed him.

And now back on topic.

Snape – why he didn’t kill Dumbledore with the Avada Kedavra curse, why he looked angry when he did kill him and why he can't stand Harry.
Whether he is good remains to be seen...but he's certainly still working for Dumbledore's cause.

1. Snape did not kill Dumbledore with the ‘Avada Kedavra’ killing curse. He killed him with the (silent) ‘Levicorpus’ spell by lifting him over the ramparts and dropping him to his death (which Dumbledore allowed to happen) only because HE HAD TO. We have seen many people killed in the HP series using the AK curse. NONE of them were lifted off the ground. Snape even emphatically points out to Potter a few pages later that you have to “mean it” when you use a forbidden curse and there is NO WAY that Snape could have meant it against Dumbledore. Dumbledore is probably the only one who ever knew Snape was in love with Lily and probably knew it before Snape left school (remembering he was Snape’s DADA teacher). I guarantee you that Snape told Dumbledore all about Draco’s mission and that Snape gave his oath (probably way back when Lily was killed) to protect Harry. He may have even, as suggested, made an unmentioned Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore to protect Draco. i.e. I suspect Dumbledore told Snape he would happily die (when necessary) to protect one or both boys and made Snape swear to put the boys' lives first. Let’s not forget what a crucial role ‘Levicorpus’ played in ‘The Half Blood Prince’ and that JKR went to great pains instructing us on ‘silent spells’. ‘Levicorpus’ – the only silent spell of consequence we have learnt, and it was – without doubt – made silent so that Snape could kill Dumbledore with it without us 'knowing'. Snape will now be a Deatheater hero (assuming Voldemort doesn’t carry on about him defying orders) and be nicely positioned to save Harry at the end.
2. Why did Snape look so angry when he “killed” Dumbledore? I suspect he loved the man and hated Harry, Draco and, most importantly, himself for what had to be done. You must remember Snape has lived with the guilt of killing Harry’s mother for 16 years and Dumbledore has likely been his only confidant/ father figure. So his facial expression is easily captured in these emotions.
3. Snape was in love with Harry’s mother – period. No ifs. No buts. Together they were the best Potions students for years. They obviously enjoyed rivalry and respect. Snape’s feelings obviously included love. He lost a lot (if not all) of the respect he had from Lily when he called her a mudblood. You can be sure this insult was made in a moment of fury (humiliated that he was helpless in front of her) and Severus’ guilt is why it is one of his worst memories. He would have been sick of James (Potter) showing off, winning quidditch and what was worse (as we learn from the ‘Half-Blood Prince’) the silent spell “Levicorpus” – which James used to embarrass Severus in that memory – was very likely to have been invented by Severus himself. James picked on Severus because (despite appearances and Harry’s viewpoint) Severus was better than him at Potions (Lily’s best subject) and obviously liked Lily. Why else did they hate each other so much? Note: the fact that Snape wanted to be everything Sirius Black had renounced and despised wouldn’t have hurt on the vindictive torment side either.
4. Snape hates looking at Harry because:
a. Harry’s eyes remind Snape he inadvertently killed the love of his life (Lily), which brings him enormous anguish and self-loathing. I agree with common consensus that Snape negotiated a deal with the Dark Lord that James and Harry would be killed but Lily would be spared (ahhh, the delusions of love). When Lily was killed as well Snape’s world came crashing down.
b. Harry looks like James, reminding Snape that he never had Lily’s heart (oh, cruel world). It is evident that Snape reviled James (and probably himself) because he couldn’t compete with James directly. James had quidditch, popularity, looks, charisma – and Sirius (who appears to have had James' measure in everything but quidditch and would have doubled the effect). Snape, seemingly, had Potions and ambition alone. It is likely that it was Snape’s deluded notion of ‘winning’ Lily’s affection (impressing her with his skills as a wizard) that drove him so deeply into the Dark Arts.

There are, of course, a million other parameters to consider and I am sure JKR will please us yet again. But let me reiterate – Snape is definitely still working for Harry’s cause (against Voldemort) because of Lily, he was forced to kill Dumbledore (using the ‘Levicorpus’ spell) to remain true to that cause AND he will be there at the end to cause havoc in the favour of our heroes.

We are not going to allow this to develope into another 'Snape loved Lily' thread. That discussion was discontinued for a very good reason.

This thread has actually been redundant ever since the Snape Triumvirate threads were created. I will not hesitate to close it if need be.

Well, either this is part of Dumbledore's plan or Snape is mental or some kind of psycho or he is really bad and very good at occlumency... and other ...mencies
Now that Dumble is dead I think it is preferable for him to remain on Voldy's side.

I think Snape is good. He and Dumbledore had this all planed. Dumbledore will return!!

Snape is probably gathering information... But I HOPE he is good anyway!!

1. Snape did not kill Dumbledore with the ‘Avada Kedavra’ killing curse. He killed him with the (silent) ‘Levicorpus’ spell by lifting him over the ramparts and dropping him to his death (which Dumbledore allowed to happen) only because HE HAD TO. We have seen many people killed in the HP series using the AK curse. NONE of them were lifted off the ground. We have seen many people killed in the HP series using the AK curse and each time the curse went along with a flash of green light, as the curse Snape used on the tower. We have seen several people levitated in the HP series by the Levicorpus spell and none of these spells went along with a flash of green light. Logical conclusion: The curse Snape used on Dumbledore on the tower wast most likely the AK.
I know this curse and the seemingly odd concomitant circumstances have been discussed already. I don´t know if there was something wrong about that curse. I tend to believe it was an AK. Dumbledore´s odd reaction to it could be due to other things. Maybe it was because Dumbledore was already so incredibly weak after the nasty potion he had to drink in the cave.

I guarantee you that Snape told Dumbledore all about Draco’s mission and that Snape gave his oath (probably way back when Lily was killed) to protect Harry. I think Snape has told Dumbledore about the UV he made with Narcissa. That´s why Dumbledore knew he would most likely die in the not so far future. And he knew what a precarious situation Snape and Draco were in. It was utmost important for Dumbledore to make sure Harry learnt everything about the Horcruxes as soon as possible, therefore he began with private lessons immediately at the beginning of the school year. But Dumbledore knew as well that he had to set up some kind of plan involving the possibility that Snape might have to kill him at some point, to prevent Draco becoming a murderer and a full-fledged DE and save Snape from dying from the Vow and at the same time enable him to get closer to Voldemort to spy on him for the Order.

He may have even, as suggested, made an unmentioned Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore to protect Draco. No. Snape made the Vow with Narcissa. Dumbledore would never make Snape to comit an UV. This is a very serious vow and the risk of dying due to the vow is too high. Dumbledore wouldn´t put anyone in such a position.

Let’s not forget what a crucial role ‘Levicorpus’ played in ‘The Half Blood Prince’ and that JKR went to great pains instructing us on ‘silent spells’. ‘Levicorpus’ – the only silent spell of consequence we have learnt, and it was – without doubt – made silent so that Snape could kill Dumbledore with it without us 'knowing'. Snape will now be a Deatheater hero (assuming Voldemort doesn’t carry on about him defying orders) and be nicely positioned to save Harry at the end.It is a good point about the Levicorpus. While I still think the curse was indeed the AK (see above). In the end this question will be answered in HP7, but I think it doesn´t really help us evaluating Snape´s loyalties and motives. Whether it was the AK or the Levicorpus or another spell, Dumbledore died as a consequence, thus the fact remains: Snape killed Dumbledore.
2. Why did Snape look so angry when he “killed” Dumbledore? I suspect he loved the man and hated Harry, Draco and, most importantly, himself for what had to be done. You must remember Snape has lived with the guilt of killing Harry’s mother for 16 years and Dumbledore has likely been his only confidant/ father figure. So his facial expression is easily captured in these emotions.Yep. I think Snape despised himself at that moment, because he hated what he had to do. It mirrors very interestingly the expression on Harry´s face in the cave when he is forced to feed Dumbledore with the green potion.

BTW: :welcome: to the forums

I dunno...I'm really confused about Snape being good. Oh one hand i def think he HAD to kill dumbledore, but on the other hand somethings knawing at me...

it's gonna really be interesting to see what happens...

It is made very clear in the books that Dumbledore does not fear death. "After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." (PS) Dumbledore would never beg Snape to spare his life, it goes against the character that JK has presented him as from the beginning. The only logical explanation was that Dumbledore was reminding Snape of his duties (which included killing him, apparently). Dumbledore is a brilliant wizard. Could he have been fooled by Snape for as long as he was? But, he did say himself that as an outcome of his brilliance, his mistakes were coorespondingly greater than the average man.

I don't think Severus is an easy character to figure out. We know that Harry tends to see things in either black or white; good or bad; right or wrong. Snape doesn't seem to fit those rigid limitations. As unlikeable as he is, I have a feeling that Severus is loyal to Dumbledore.

Snape did not kill Dumbledore with the ‘Avada Kedavra’ killing curse. He killed him with the (silent) ‘Levicorpus’ spell by lifting him over the ramparts and dropping him to his death (which Dumbledore allowed to happen) only because HE HAD TO.
I disagree. The flash of green light and the fact that there were no secondary effects on the body are attributes which--as far as we know-- are unique to the killing curse. Do you really think Dumbledore would have died from simply falling off a tower? Unless of course he was dead before he fell, which I believe is the case here.

I agree, Snape is a hard character to figure out. Here's one thing from GoF though that makes me suspicious though...It is in the chapter where Voldemort comes back and so do his DE's. Voldemort says 'One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe who has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one who remains my faithful servant and who has already re-entered my service (Crouch Jr.).' Soooooooo, who is the first and second person Voldemort is talking about?? Snape and Regullas? Any ideas? And sorry if this has been mentioned already but its kinda hard to look at over 250 posts.

I disagree. The flash of green light and the fact that there were no secondary effects on the body are attributes which--as far as we know-- are unique to the killing curse. Do you really think Dumbledore would have died from simply falling off a Tower? Unless of course he was dead before he fell, which I believe is the case here.

For the record, I think Snape killed Dumbledore with an Avada Kedavra curse at the latter's request. That said, if Dumbledore had not done any magic, he would have been killed by a fall from a tower, yes. And, if it was indeeed his intention to die, I presume he would not have used magic to prevent it. To me, Fawkes' complete ansence in that scene suggests Dumbledore was not trying to save himself.

Second, the people who argue against the Killing Curse have some interesting details in their favor. The state of the body is not actually typical of a victim of the Killing Curse. Dumbledore is still bleeding at the mouth when Harry sees him. He also has his eyes closed, and a peaceful, sleeplike expression on his face, neither of which has been present on other vitcims whose eyes and facial expressions were described in the books.

There is also, in Harry's inability to scream after Dumbledore is hit by the spell, the suggestion that Dumbledore might still have been alive at that point. The Killing Curse kills instantly. None of this is conclusive, but it does seem to leave the door open for some theories.

He also has his eyes closed, and a peaceful, sleeplike expression on his face, neither of which has been present on other vitcims whose eyes and facial expressions were described in the books.
Could his eyes have been closed because when he died it wasn't a shock to him? He was ready (going with the theory that he told Snape to kill him). The other victims of the curse we've seen we're not prepared to die. This could explain his peaceful expression.

It is in the chapter where Voldemort comes back and so do his DE's. Voldemort says 'One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe who has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one who remains my faithful servant and who has already re-entered my service (Crouch Jr.).' Soooooooo, who is the first and second person Voldemort is talking about?? Snape and Regullas? Any ideas?

I don't think Voldermort was referring to Regulus, because at that point he had already been dead for several years (1980, I believe was the year he died). Remus said he only managed to live a few days after "deserting" the Death Eaters in Half-Blood Prince. If he was already dead, Voldermort would not be saying that he would "pay" or be killed.

I believe he was speaking of Karkaroff who ratted out the other Death Eaters to escape a life-sentence in Azkaban and ran away when he felt the burn of the Dark Mark in Goblet of Fire. He was later found dead in beginning of the Second Wizarding War.

So is Snape the one 'who has left him forever and will be killed?'

Yes, I believe Voldermort was referring to Snape as the one that had left forever. When Voldermort said this, he was still under the assumption that Snape was working with and loyal to Dumbledore. This is confirmed in HBP when Snape tells Bellatrix that Voldermort didn't believe he was loyal to him but that he was able to convince him otherwise.

What is interesting to note, however, is that the one who "has left me forever" would be "killed, of course." It was Karkaroff who was killed, not Snape. But I'm still going with Snape being the one that had left forever.

I think Snape is good. He and Dumbledore had this all planed. Dumbledore will return!! Snape is probably gathering information... But I HOPE he is good anyway!!
I hope you realize Jo has said openly that Dumbledore is dead. For sure; completely. He will not be returning. :) I also do not see how he could be gathering information if he killed the one man he would be reporting it to - it's not like the Order will have anything to do with him, not after what he's done. Might you elaborate a little more?

I also do not see how he could be gathering information if he killed the one man he would be reporting it to - it's not like the Order will have anything to do with him, not after what he's done.Good point. That´s why it has been suggested on this thread by several posters - among them myself - that someone else had to be into the plan between Dumbledore and Snape for that scenario to work out. One person who has been suggested is Aberforth Dumbledore. We haven´t seen him yet very much. And JKR has, if I recall correctly, said that we will see more of an Order Member in HP7 who we don´t know that much by now. So it could be a possibility. Aberforth is Albus´s brother and I can imagine they trust each other.

Aberforth is Albus´s brother and I can imagine they trust each other.

Who do you mean by they?

Also, I found this interesting, pg. 595 hardback copy of HBP, 'Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was a revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.' So, I've been assuming all along this has been Snape with the hatred in his face. But that word 'revulsion' also means disgust and horror. Did Snape not want to kill Dumbledore, but only did it bc of the UV?? Maybe Snape had hate bc he hated he was doing it. Just some thoughts.....

For the life of me i cant make up my mind when it comes to severus snape. there are too many factors too consider, and not just the fact that harry and everyone else has always thought snape was evil. it just seems too clean cut. just considering the things mentioned in HP6, although snape agreed to the unforgivable curse and killed dumbledore, hagrid overheard snape and dumbledore arguing about the fact that there was something that snape really did not wish to do but dumbledore said he had agreed to it and he wasnt allowed to back out of it now. perhaps dumbledore knew about the oath and told snape he had to stick to it, in order to save draco from becoming a murderer, perhaps dumbledore had even known that there was a chance narcissa would ask snape to make an oath like that and had told snape he had too in order to maintain his disguise. Then there is the fact that snape lost it completely when harry called him a coward for killing dumbledore unharmed, like it really struck snape down to the bone what had just happened. Almost seemed like snape was miserable and horrified about what he had just had to do. Could the hate and loathing witnessed by harry on snapes face infact been due to what snape knew he now had to do? Despite all his horrible threats, tricks and his general loathing for harry and harry's family never once has snape gone over the top, really pushed the envelope and done something to really hurt harry. He had Harry at his mercy that night and didnt even try a simple Hex just for the joy of giving Harry a little pain or disfigurement. He stopped every death eater from hurting harry instead, just by saying the dark lord wants him himself. dumbledore begged snape on the tower, but perhaps what he was begging snape to do was the only thing he knew would save draco and harry. Seems to me that that is a sacrifice Dumbledore would be only too willing to make.

Im not saying that i think snape is completely innnocent or that i think he is guilty, but there is definitely something fishy going on there. Sure Snape hates Harry no question, sure he's always been obsessed with the dark arts but when it all comes down to it isnt draco and harry's relationship exactly like the one between snape and james? and we've already seen that when it all came down to it draco isnt a murderer, but he is scared and is being forced into doing things he doesnt want. perhaps when lily and james were killed that was big a wake up call for snape as it was for draco when he went to kill dumbledore. No way is J.K.Rowling going to make it that straight forward unless she's lost her game.

Who do you mean by they?Oh, sorry, I was unclear. They means the brothers Albus and Aberforth. I think they trust each other and it would make sense that - assumed there had been a kind of agreement between Dumbledore and Snape - Dumbledore would have let Aberforth in on the plan. Thus, with Dumbledore gone :upset: , Snape could still spy for the Order using Aberforth to submit important insider information on Voldemort to the Order or even information to Harry, without the latter knowing where this information comes from ;) , to help him find and destroy the Horcruxes.

Also, I found this interesting, pg. 595 hardback copy of HBP, 'Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was a revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.' So, I've been assuming all along this has been Snape with the hatred in his face. But that word 'revulsion' also means disgust and horror. Did Snape not want to kill Dumbledore, but only did it bc of the UV?? Maybe Snape had hate bc he hated he was doing it. Just some thoughts.....Yes, this has been suggested several times as well. And it mirrors the situation in the cave when Harry had revulsion and hatred on his face when he was forced to feed Dumbledore with the nasty green potion. Harry definately didn´t want to do that, but was forced to due to a promise he gave Dumbledore before they left Hogwarts that night.

Quote:
Also, I found this interesting, pg. 595 hardback copy of HBP, 'Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was a revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.' So, I've been assuming all along this has been Snape with the hatred in his face. But that word 'revulsion' also means disgust and horror. Did Snape not want to kill Dumbledore, but only did it bc of the UV?? Maybe Snape had hate bc he hated he was doing it. Just some thoughts..... The AK curse would need a lot of negative emotion to fuel it, most likely hate. Wormtail could not have hated Cedric when he killed him, so a wizard must be able to summon hate, even if it is not directed toward the person being killed. Snape did not have to hate Dumbledore in order to kill him. He only had to feel enough of the emotion when he cast the spell. He could have been thinking of his abusive father, for all we know, when he cast the spell.

Oh, sorry, I was unclear. They means the brothers Albus and Aberforth. I think they trust each other and it would make sense that - assumed there had been a kind of agreement between Dumbledore and Snape - Dumbledore would have let Aberforth in on the plan. Thus, with Dumbledore gone :upset: , Snape could still spy for the Order using Aberforth to submit important insider information on Voldemort to the Order or even information to Harry, without the latter knowing where this information comes from ;) , to help him find and destroy the Horcruxes.

Yes, this has been suggested several times as well. And it mirrors the situation in the cave when Harry had revulsion and hatred on his face when he was forced to feed Dumbledore with the nasty green potion. Harry definately didn´t want to do that, but was forced to due to a promise he gave Dumbledore before they left Hogwarts that night.

I noticed that too, also, before Harry and Dumbledore went to the cave, for the 1st time in the series the pictures in his office DID NOT trust his judgement... just wanted to bring that up...

My first reading of HBP made me think that the look of hatred and revulsion on Snapes face was because of what he was being forced to do. I came to that conclusion when he freaks out at Harry calling him a coward. IF he in fact chose to kill DD so that he himself wouldn't die, he might have felt cowardly and to hear the young snot he detests call him that sent him over the edge. That was my first impression. At this point I'm not sure. I find it interesting that JKR's response to anyone professing to like Snape is always surprise and she usually says something negative about him. It could be simply that he is as bad as she has portrayed him, and the scene in Spinner's End { the "end" of the spinner of lies?} was truly the real Snape.

I think that Draco will want to save his father, or regret what he has done in the past. If the magical contract that mean Snape must protect Draco still apllies, then maybe we'll Snape continue being evil but helping the good side.

For the life of me i cant make up my mind when it comes to severus snape. there are too many factors too consider, and not just the fact that harry and everyone else has always thought snape was evil.

it just seems too clean cut. just considering the things mentioned in HP6, although snape agreed to the unforgivable curse and killed dumbledore, hagrid overheard snape and dumbledore arguing about the fact that there was something that snape really did not wish to do but dumbledore said he had agreed to it and he wasnt allowed to back out of it now.

perhaps dumbledore knew about the oath and told snape he had to stick to it, in order to save draco from becoming a murderer, perhaps dumbledore had even known that there was a chance narcissa would ask snape to make an oath like that and had told snape he had too in order to maintain his disguise.

Then there is the fact that snape lost it completely when harry called him a coward for killing dumbledore unharmed, like it really struck snape down to the bone what had just happened. Almost seemed like snape was miserable and horrified about what he had just had to do. Could the hate and loathing witnessed by harry on snapes face infact been due to what snape knew he now had to do?

Despite all his horrible threats, tricks and his general loathing for harry and harry's family never once has snape gone over the top, really pushed the envelope and done something to really hurt harry. He had Harry at his mercy that night and didnt even try a simple Hex just for the joy of giving Harry a little pain or disfigurement. He stopped every death eater from hurting harry instead, just by saying the dark lord wants him himself. dumbledore begged snape on the tower, but perhaps what he was begging snape to do was the only thing he knew would save draco and harry. Seems to me that that is a sacrifice Dumbledore would be only too willing to make.

Im not saying that i think snape is completely innnocent or that i think he is guilty, but there is definitely something fishy going on there. Sure Snape hates Harry no question, sure he's always been obsessed with the dark arts but when it all comes down to it isnt draco and harry's relationship exactly like the one between snape and james? and we've already seen that when it all came down to it draco isnt a murderer, but he is scared and is being forced into doing things he doesnt want. perhaps when lily and james were killed that was big a wake up call for snape as it was for draco when he went to kill dumbledore. No way is J.K.Rowling going to make it that straight forward unless she's lost her game.I agree with you on this post animorphmagus, there was definitely something fishy going on there, especially with him [possibly] helping Harry right after killing Dumbledore... Why would he even do that if he was truly evil? By the way I spaced out your post somewhat when I quoted it so that other members could read it easier - I hope that you don't mind :). It was just very hard for me to read it since it was a block of text...

I'm new at this, so I'm sorry if this sounds stupid of if this has been already said but...
I remember JK saying something(or I just read something) about wandless magic... what if Dumbledore had, wordlessly, put Snape under the Imperius Curse at that moment to force him to kill him ? I don't know why he would have done it, but that would explain why Snape seemed to struggle with his act a lot...
Although I can't really picture Dumbledore using an Imperius Curse, I just wanted to post this, and see what people might think !

I'm new at this, so I'm sorry if this sounds stupid of if this has been already said but...
I remember JK saying something(or I just read something) about wandless magic... what if Dumbledore had, wordlessly, put Snape under the Imperius Curse at that moment to force him to kill him ? I don't know why he would have done it, but that would explain why Snape seemed to struggle with his act a lot...
Although I can't really picture Dumbledore using an Imperius Curse, I just wanted to post this, and see what people might think !

No it doesn't sound stupid... it's nice to see new ideas on what happened then, but in my opinion I don't think that Dumbledore would have done that...

Grr how dare you make it easier for people to read what i say. i want them to struggle, STRUGGLE!

Lol nah ofcourse i dont mind, i was only on my begginers spells at writing when i first wrote that. Im learning to do spaces now :P

I agree that its unlikey Dumbledore used the imperius curse but good suggestion Elviriel, I dont think anyone else thought of that!

P.S. check out all my spaces in this remark! I learn quickly. hee, hee, hee

I remember JK saying something(or I just read something) about wandless magic... what if Dumbledore had, wordlessly, put Snape under the Imperius Curse at that moment to force him to kill him ? I don't know why he would have done it, but that would explain why Snape seemed to struggle with his act a lot...


I agree that Dumbledore would not Imperius someone like that.

However, I also don't think he needed to. I think he asked Snape to kill him, and Snape did. He struggled with it simply because he dod not want to do it.

Grr how dare you make it easier for people to read what i say. i want them to struggle, STRUGGLE!

Lol nah ofcourse i dont mind, i was only on my begginers spells at writing when i first wrote that. Im learning to do spaces now :P

I agree that its unlikey Dumbledore used the imperius curse but good suggestion Elviriel, I dont think anyone else thought of that!

P.S. check out all my spaces in this remark! I learn quickly. hee, hee, hee

That's cool, you're doing a good job at them :)!

Topic pleeeease. :)

Topic pleeeease. :)
Ok, sorry about that, just replying to another member on his/her getting better at making spaces in posts... :)

I agree that Dumbledore would not Imperius someone like that.

However, I also don't think he needed to. I think he asked Snape to kill him, and Snape did. He struggled with it simply because he dod not want to do it.

I agree with that... it fits Dumbledore's character in my opinion, he wasn't afraid of death and he knew that he most likely wasn't going to live much longer and he most likely wanted to be killed by someone that he trusted completely and not by an enemy.

sorry about that, it was my fault...

I agree with that... it fits Dumbledore's character in my opinion, he wasn't afraid of death and he knew that he most likely wasn't going to live much longer and he most likely wanted to be killed by someone that he trusted completely and not by an enemy

It would certainly explain why snape went mental at being called a coward. Afterall killing someone you admire and care about because they asked you to would take the greatest courage of all. It also ties in a comment I vaguely remembering hearing that JKR said about Snape getting his redemption in the end.

Sorry I cant remember exactly where I read it though.

sorry about that, it was my fault...



It would certainly explain why snape went mental at being called a coward. Afterall killing someone you admire and care about because they asked you to would take the greatest courage of all. It also ties in a comment I vaguely remembering hearing that JKR said about Snape getting his redemption in the end.

Sorry I cant remember exactly where I read it though.
I agree, I think that she said that in an interview that she had awhile back that he had a redemptive quality about him [can't wait until book 7 to see what it is :clap:]...

I've considered a lot of the arguments for and against Snape being good and I'm pretty certain IMHO that he's good and was acting on direct orders from Dumbledore. There were a lot of clues to that effect in the chapter just prior to Dumbledore's demise. He pretty much asked Harry to kill him if necessary to get the horcrux that he thought was still in the cave. I think it's pretty solid that Snape is good.

I've considered a lot of the arguments for and against Snape being good and I'm pretty certain IMHO that he's good and was acting on direct orders from Dumbledore. There were a lot of clues to that effect in the chapter just prior to Dumbledore's demise. He pretty much asked Harry to kill him if necessary to get the horcrux that he thought was still in the cave. I think it's pretty solid that Snape is good.
I agree, there were too many clues there that lead up to that. Also, what happened between Harry and him was similar to the arguement that him and Snape had earlier in HBP.

Hey all, first post here :)

I think snape had to kill dumbledore, because snape is more important then dumbledore. let me explain...

Snape made the unbreakable vow, though he preferred to look after draco without making it...(spinners end)
Narcissa Malfoy: "Will you make the unbreakable vow?"
"The unbreakable vow?" Snape's expression was blank, unreadable.

I think Snape told dumbledore about the vow. It was very important that either draco or snape would succeed, otherwise snape would die. This means that dumbledore had to die.

Snape seems to know a lot about voldemort. In Spinners end, his discussion with bellatrix and narcissa, it seems that he knows how the dark lord thinks.

Snape is close to voldemort, he is kind of his favorite death eater. Dumbledore had to give him orders to kill dumbledore. Dumbledore was getting old, even though he was still a powerful wizard. Its like Nicolas Flamel, he was also getting old but still a good alchemist. In the quest to finish voldemort, snape can be of more importance to Harry then Dumbledore could be. Dumbledore has told Snape things about "Tom" that he did not know yet.

Snape knows the enemy more then anyone. The key to defeat the enemy is to be able to think like the enemy. Draco would not have killed dumbledore. If another death eater would have killed dumbledore, the Vow would've been broken and snape would've been dead.

It was the only option for dumbledore to keep snape alive. If it was the only way, then dumbledore did chose wisely. He has no easy way "i have to live" thoughts. only the hard way "whats right" is what he takes in consideration.

Snape is close to voldemort, and can help harry. Dumbledore can help harry with wise advice and good thinking, but he is not in voldemorts world. Snape is, and the longer he can stay in the death eaters world, the more useful he will prove to be.

Hey all, first post here :)

I think snape had to kill dumbledore, because snape is more important then dumbledore. let me explain...

Snape made the unbreakable vow, though he preferred to look after draco without making it...(spinners end)
Narcissa Malfoy: "Will you make the unbreakable vow?"
"The unbreakable vow?" Snape's expression was blank, unreadable.

I think Snape told dumbledore about the vow. It was very important that either draco or snape would succeed, otherwise snape would die. This means that dumbledore had to die.

Snape seems to know a lot about voldemort. In Spinners end, his discussion with bellatrix and narcissa, it seems that he knows how the dark lord thinks.

Snape is close to voldemort, he is kind of his favorite death eater. Dumbledore had to give him orders to kill dumbledore. Dumbledore was getting old, even though he was still a powerful wizard. Its like Nicolas Flamel, he was also getting old but still a good alchemist. In the quest to finish voldemort, snape can be of more importance to Harry then Dumbledore could be. Dumbledore has told Snape things about "Tom" that he did not know yet.

Snape knows the enemy more then anyone. The key to defeat the enemy is to be able to think like the enemy. Draco would not have killed dumbledore. If another death eater would have killed dumbledore, the Vow would've been broken and snape would've been dead.

It was the only option for dumbledore to keep snape alive. If it was the only way, then dumbledore did chose wisely. He has no easy way "i have to live" thoughts. only the hard way "whats right" is what he takes in consideration.

Snape is close to voldemort, and can help harry. Dumbledore can help harry with wise advice and good thinking, but he is not in voldemorts world. Snape is, and the longer he can stay in the death eaters world, the more useful he will prove to be.
I agree with you about this, if he was the one who took the vow, I tend to think that it was Dumbledore who took it and then told Snape about it... but I do agree with you overall especially with the part where you said "The key to defeat the enemy is to be able to think like the enemy.", it makes perfect sense, that Dumbledore had him on his side... in order to defeat LV you need someone who thinks like him [not totally though] on your side.

Do you think that dumbledore used polujuice potion that night to be snape and then take the unbreakable vow? It could be yes, but why wouldnt dumbledore let snape go himself?

In that case dumbledore would still have died if the plan failed. However, Snape would be alive and Bellatrix and narcissa would not understand how that is possible. Snape would lose trust from the dark side, and the "weapon Snape" would be lost.

I absolutely think Snape is good. He has proven himself time and again to be on the side of good, and he remains to be so.

Do you think that dumbledore used polujuice potion that night to be snape and then take the unbreakable vow? It could be yes, but why wouldnt dumbledore let snape go himself?

In that case dumbledore would still have died if the plan failed. However, Snape would be alive and Bellatrix and narcissa would not understand how that is possible. Snape would lose trust from the dark side, and the "weapon Snape" would be lost.

I don't think that he used polyjuice potion in order to impersonate Snape, I thing that that was just a red herring and that he used Human Transfiguration to do so.

Maybe, he didn't want Snape to get hurt and he figured that he was just too important to the Order to risk.

I think that he is on the good side, but I don't think he'll survive the series. That because I feel he'll prove he's on that side by sacrificing his life, which won't be the easy choice for a slytherin

I think that Snape is good. He cound't refuse the vow because that would look suspicius. So he had to kill Dumbledore in the end because Malfoy wasn't able to do it.
Another point is that he didn't do any harm to Harry after killing Dumbledore. He certainly knew that Harry was with Dumbledore on the way so he knew that Harry had to be close to Dumbledore on the tower - he didn't look for him.
And then Harry called him coward and he didn't do anything. He just prodected himself.

I think he is good because he followed Dumbledore's plans in the 6th book.

Another point is that he didn't do any harm to Harry after killing Dumbledore. He certainly knew that Harry was with Dumbledore on the way so he knew that Harry had to be close to Dumbledore on the tower - he didn't look for him.
And then Harry called him coward and he didn't do anything. He just prodected himself.This has been discussed before. I agree that Snape not harming Harry when he was on the run, leaving Hogwarts´grounds, and after being called a coward, is a clue that Snape is on the good side.

I´m not sure about the events on the tower though. It has been suggested that Snape might have magically sensed Harry under his invisibility cloak, But maybe Snape knew Harry had left Hogwarts together with Dumbledore. McGonagall seemed to know. She questions Harry accordingly after Dumbledore had been killed, if I recall correctly.

However, the fact that he didn´t give Harry´s presence away (there were several full-fledged DEs on the tower) speaks for Snape.

I originally didn't think so, but I'm of the persuasion now that Snape is going to turn out good in the end. Snape's probably the most interesting (in terms of complexity) character in the series, and I loved how in the early books the Trio was so convinced Snape was bad but he turned out to be on their side (at least in those books). I don't see why Rowling is going to turn him into an evil character now. Snape is way too complex for that. I think he's going to turn out to be some sort of an "anti-hero" and be on the side of the "good guys." Plus it would be really interesting to be able to see how Snape can be returned to the good graces of the Order of the Phoenix after doing something so horrible as killing Dumbledore.

My unshaken belief that Snape is still on the good side boils down to a few things:

1. All the books up until HBP follow a typical mystery novel structure, where the person we are encouraged to think is the villain all along (usually Snape)turns out to be no such thing at the end, while the real villain is someone we trusted. I believe that JKR has said that Books 6 and 7 count as one book - if we are led to believe that Snape is the villain at this stage (and, indeed, were encouraged to think that as early as the second chapter), that's virtually cast-iron proof that he's not.

2. The fact that DD finally gave Snape the DADA job (which he knows is cursed) means he already knew that Snape would be leaving Hogwarts by the end of the year. This suggests to me (as does the conversation that Hagrid overhears between Snape and DD in HBP, and possibly even DD's mysterious question to Snape as early as the end of GoF, if he's ready to do some task they've previously agreed) that Snape and DD have agreed that the killing on the tower will take place, at least ten months in advance of it happening. It's a set-up. I don't think it's even because of the Unbreakable Vow that Snape makes to Narcissa, I think it predates that. He was able to make that Vow, because he knew he would be killing DD (on DD's orders), anyway.

3. Snape lies in several places during his conversation with Bellatrix at Spinner's End (e.g. claiming that initially he hoped that Harry would be a great wizard, a figurehead behind whom the Dark forces could regroup - that's rubbish, he loathed Harry from the first moment he saw him, it's not true that he "quickly" realised that Harry had no talent, he expected him to have none from Lesson 1; also, repeating the Hogwarts rumour that DD wouldn't give him the DADA job because it might tempt him back to his old ways is a lie - DD knows about the curse and won't give the DADA job to anyone he still wants to be hanging around for another 12 months). This suggests to me that his profession of loyalty to Voldemort is also a lie, and he is exactly what DD believes him to be - a loyal OotP member, pretending to be a DE spy, pretending to be a loyal OotP member.

I originally didn't think so, but I'm of the persuasion now that Snape is going to turn out good in the end. Snape's probably the most interesting (in terms of complexity) character in the series, and I loved how in the early books the Trio was so convinced Snape was bad but he turned out to be on their side (at least in those books). I don't see why Rowling is going to turn him into an evil character now. Snape is way too complex for that. I think he's going to turn out to be some sort of an "anti-hero" and be on the side of the "good guys." Plus it would be really interesting to be able to see how Snape can be returned to the good graces of the Order of the Phoenix after doing something so horrible as killing Dumbledore.

I agree, I think that he will be an anti-hero as well, it just wouldn't make sense, at least in my opinion that he would turn out to be a bad guy, it would just cheapen the series' overall message.

i've posted this in a previous and similar thread but i believe that snape is working for himself

If Snape is evil, why was he is Barty Crouch, Jr.'s foe glass?

My mother has this theory that I began to believe when I read the sixth book.
I believe that Harry, begridgingly, will begin to learn why Dumbledore trusted Snape. He then will see a few trials/memories in the Pensive, and begin to realize that Snape has had good intentions all along, although his original path to the dark side has sucked him into Voldemort's mercy. Then...here's the big part...he will have to acutally cooperate (not an easy thing for Harry) with Snape. They will probably trade info, etc., and gang up against Voldemort. Pretty nifty, eh?

My mother has this theory that I began to believe when I read the sixth book.
I believe that Harry, begridgingly, will begin to learn why Dumbledore trusted Snape. He then will see a few trials/memories in the Pensive, and begin to realize that Snape has had good intentions all along, although his original path to the dark side has sucked him into Voldemort's mercy. Then...here's the big part...he will have to acutally cooperate (not an easy thing for Harry) with Snape. They will probably trade info, etc., and gang up against Voldemort. Pretty nifty, eh?Wonderfully nifty. :lol: But this is one of the scenarios which have already been discussed, either on this thread or on the Snape the Obscure thread. I´m not sure, I lost track of all the Snape-threads. :D

Nevertheless, it is one possibility that Harry has to learn to trust Snape and cooperate with him, otherwise we won´t be seeing much if any of Snape in HP7. That is, if Snape is on the good side, which I still think.

If Snape is a real baddie, Harry will either track him down actively, or they will meet coincidentally and there will be a kind of showdown between them.

Wonderfully nifty. :lol: But this is one of the scenarios which have already been discussed, either on this thread or on the Snape the Obscure thread. I´m not sure, I lost track of all the Snape-threads. :D

Nevertheless, it is one possibility that Harry has to learn to trust Snape and cooperate with him, otherwise we won´t be seeing much if any of Snape in HP7. That is, if Snape is on the good side, which I still think.

If Snape is a real baddie, Harry will either track him down actively, or they will meet coincidentally and there will be a kind of showdown between them.

Ohh...woopsies! I don't really read lots of threads, I'm kind of new to this. I agree that we won't see Snape directly, although Harry will continute to follow his path and Snape remains elusive. The showdown, I believe, will make Harry face all the Death Eaters that have caused he and his friends any harm, leading up to the big baddie himself, Voldy. :wow:

At this point I think Snape is free to decide his own fate. He has been playing both sides nonstop and it seems that he can pick where he wants to end up, with whichever side he sees most profitable for himself.

Consider this... You really have to mean it to perform an unforgiveable curse, and while the death of Harrys parents stir strong emotions to Harry himself, I have never ever got the impressiont that he was able to cast one, he was not angry enough, Now he is, he has always hated Snape, but now he has the emotion to finally carry out the curse that he must perform.

I also think that the scene at the end of the book gets Snape into the room with Voldemort and Harry at the climax. This is important, because Harry is going to need help, and Snape will be there, and Snape will probably die saving Harry somehow, while at the same time exposing Volde's weakness, and repaying the life debt Im sure he has with Lilly... In short Snape will appear bad throughout book seven, but in the end, his colors will show and he will be a hero for saving Harry and allowing him to vanquish Volde

Sorry if this theory has been kicked around already and if it has could someone tell me where on the forum to read up on it further.....but, what if Snape wants to be "the dark lord" himself and he needs and/or is using Harry to help kill off Voldemort?

Sorry if this theory has been kicked around already and if it has could someone tell me where on the forum to read up on it further.....but, what if Snape wants to be "the dark lord" himself and he needs and/or is using Harry to help kill off Voldemort?Me thinks it could fit here.

Snape the Dark Lord (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=98769)

This is an interesting question.

The phrasing implies that Snape being 'good' and on the 'good side' are the same. However, several characters on the 'good side' are at best ambiguous- Mundungus and Moody, for example. Mundungus is a thief and Moody rather a vigilante. This implies that 'goodness' of nature overall is less a requirement for being on the 'good side' than agreement with the purposes of that side.

(The inverse could be someone who uses the 'bad' side to further their own ends, such as Lucius using the fear generated by being a DE to solidify his social and political power.)

Do I see Snape as a character whom, if I had to place him on a scale of relative good or bad nature, would be on the good side? Not really. I have not often seen the character take actions that seem to show his priorities as including common values associated with 'goodness', such as consideration, care, protectiveness and defense of others. Not until we see him interact with Narcissa is he seen as showing consideration for another.

Do I see him as on the 'good side'? Yes, just as much as I see him on the 'bad' side. The character has taken, both purposefully and inadvertently, actions that have benefited both sides. He has shown what can be interpreted as loyalty to both sides.

So, to me, is Snape good? Only if by result, should such come about, despite his temperament. Do I see him as on the 'good' side? Yes, and on the 'bad' side as well, with his final disposition- the results of his actions and the dedication of his loyalties- yet to be made.

Oh! I was posting mid-way in the "Umbridge A Death Eater?" when I saw what I was posting. I did a rapid search, and found out this had not been posted before; okay, let's look back in the OotP. When Harry and his DA gang are practicing, they are caught in Umbridge's grip; as you remember, Umbridge called Snape in and told him to get the Truth-Telling Potion (the name escapes my mind). But, Snape replies something along the lines of "It would take more than a month to produce," back to her; first, at reading, I thought he said it simply because he didn't have any. But, what if it was a way to keep Harry safe?

We all know Snape likes to keep a collection of potions locked up someplace in the castle, seeing as Dobby easily found the Water-Breathing Potion/Object to give to Harry for the Second Task the year before. And, what if Snape had a veil he made earlier for any "things" to happen, but just told Umbridge he had none? This is a major clue to telling that Snape could possibly lean to Good side.

What do you guys think?

Snape had already given her fake truth potion to use on Harry . He was lying when he said he didn't have any more I think because he didn't have any trouble getting some to use on Barty Jr.

Maybe you might be interested in---> The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero V2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=98097)

YE that could be another clue as to where snape's loyalty lies but ten again snape could have done it because he just dislikes Umbridge

But then I think that he would do anything to get harry kicked out of school, if e was a death eater and trying to fulfill his duty to Voldy

So i guess possibly if he didnt really have an Veritaserum handy then this is one piece of evidence that proves that snape is good

That is a good point! I haven't made a decision on Snape yet so I am trying to keep an open mind.

I think it is very possible that Snape did have Verituserum on hand & didn't want Harry to reveal anything about the Order or anything else for that matter.
Point for Snape if your theory pans out!

Oh! I was posting mid-way in the "Umbridge A Death Eater?" when I saw what I was posting. I did a rapid search, and found out this had not been posted before; okay, let's look back in the OotP. When Harry and his DA gang are practicing, they are caught in Umbridge's grip; as you remember, Umbridge called Snape in and told him to get the Truth-Telling Potion (the name escapes my mind). But, Snape replies something along the lines of "It would take more than a month to produce," back to her; first, at reading, I thought he said it simply because he didn't have any. But, what if it was a way to keep Harry safe?

We all know Snape likes to keep a collection of potions locked up someplace in the castle, seeing as Dobby easily found the Water-Breathing Potion/Object to give to Harry for the Second Task the year before. And, what if Snape had a veil he made earlier for any "things" to happen, but just told Umbridge he had none? This is a major clue to telling that Snape could possibly lean to Good side.

Well you KNOW I'm going to agree with you about him leaning to the Good side. Though I see it as him trying to protect Harry from getting in really serious trouble from Umbridge AND his refusal to being told what to do by such a horrible woman.

You would think he would have a stash of at least 5 vials of all his Potions, especially Veritaserum. Remember he BRAGGED about it in GOF. Even though he probably didn't create it, he talked about it as if it were his Baby.
I forgot about that scene, but hadn't seen it in that way. Remember how he pratically mocks her--he bows dramatically as if to say "Well, yes Ma'am, your Royal Magesty. Is there anything else I can do, Queenie?" It's clear he can't stand Umbridge and her high opinion of herself. So I think in a way he's refusing to being told what to do by such a horrible woman. It's kind of his way of "Sticking it to the Toad" so to speak. She utterly humiliated him by pointing out the fact the Ministry was suspicious of him, IN FRONT of his Students. She interrupted HIS Class and did make him look like a fool. Plus she also reduced Hagrid and Trewlanie to tears--so maybe that was also his way of flipping her the Bird.
I just read the other posts--I forgot he handed her the FAKE potion--yet more evidence of him possibly being good.

Oh! I was posting mid-way in the "Umbridge A Death Eater?" when I saw what I was posting. I did a rapid search, and found out this had not been posted before; okay, let's look back in the OotP. When Harry and his DA gang are practicing, they are caught in Umbridge's grip; as you remember, Umbridge called Snape in and told him to get the Truth-Telling Potion (the name escapes my mind). But, Snape replies something along the lines of "It would take more than a month to produce," back to her; first, at reading, I thought he said it simply because he didn't have any. But, what if it was a way to keep Harry safe?

We all know Snape likes to keep a collection of potions locked up someplace in the castle, seeing as Dobby easily found the Water-Breathing Potion/Object to give to Harry for the Second Task the year before. And, what if Snape had a veil he made earlier for any "things" to happen, but just told Umbridge he had none? This is a major clue to telling that Snape could possibly lean to Good side.

What do you guys think?

I think that it could be possible... also, when he told Harry in code [like what Harry did in OOTP to him ;)] in order for him to even have half a chance against Voldemort that he would have to learn Occulumency and Non-Verbal Spells, after he had killed Dumbledore...

I do feel Snape was on the good side, and respected Dumbledore. (Doesn't mean I like him, by any means!!) But now, with Dumbledore out of the picture, what is there to keep Snape working for the good side. Everyone now hates him. Some, more than before. Unless Snape has very strong morals to push him to explain his actions and clear his name, it would be much easier to stay with Voldemort and the Death Eaters. I suppose we'll find out what he is really made of in book 7.

I do feel Snape was on the good side, and respected Dumbledore. (Doesn't mean I like him, by any means!!) But now, with Dumbledore out of the picture, what is there to keep Snape working for the good side. Everyone now hates him. Some, more than before. Unless Snape has very strong morals to push him to explain his actions and clear his name, it would be much easier to stay with Voldemort and the Death Eaters. I suppose we'll find out what he is really made of in book 7.

I guess we will - hurry up Book 7, I'm getting very tired of waiting for you to come out! :p :lol:

I definitely think Snape is good. All my friends think I'm crazy for believing it, but I can just feel it. The poor guy - "Don't call me a coward!" I just can't accept that Jo would make things so black-and-white like that. I hate it when people say to me, "But he killed Dumbledore!" arrrgggghhh! There's more to it than that!!!

Well, I think that he's good because he was a spy for Dumbledore.

Also, I think Dumbledore wanted to die beacause of some plan. Dumbledore says "Severus...Please..." This could mean that he wanted to die. Some how, i think that Snape will help Harry in the end ( though i don't know how)

Well, I think that he's good because he was a spy for Dumbledore.

Also, I think Dumbledore wanted to die beacause of some plan. Dumbledore says "Severus...Please..." This could mean that he wanted to die. Some how, i think that Snape will help Harry in the end ( though i don't know how)

hmm, that's a good theory...
I've been trying to think of a reason WHY Dumbledore would say 'please' and a lot of people thought he was showing weakness(myself included) so we were baffled because, well, lets face it, Dumbledore is old but has never really shown weakness. He's shown sadness, yes, but weakness? Not so much.
As for if Snape is good or not...
This question will haunt me till the end of time...or till the 7th book will come out;) but I think that he is indeed good. It just doesn't make sense if he is evil...I just can't see someone being able to trick Dumbledore like that, no matter how clever they are.

I'm sorry about all the theories about Snape........I don't even read them,for me:
SNAPE IS EVIL AND HE WILL COME TO THE GOOD SIDE WHEN HARRY MARRIES ROMILDA VANE.
Sorry............got very emotional.He killed Dumbledore............I won't forgive him even if he returned to the good side.

i read somwhere that his love for lily may cause him to help harry

I dont believe Snape is good. But if he is, I dont think he would be allowed back to the good side, especially after killing Dumbledore. Everyone would want to kill Snape for killing Dumbledore.

I think snape is good. i have no evidence to prove it, but I just have a feeling that he is! it is so hard for people to be what they aren't and i don't think Snape could PRETEND to be good, but nor could he PRETEND to be bad. I think he doesn't know exactly where he is, good-side or bad-side wise. I think that he is good however, and that in the end, he will end up helping Harry defeat Voldemort!

I think that he's good. I think Dumbledore told Snape to kill him.

:gryff: I argue with my brother all that time on this point. I trust Severus Snape, he just seems bad, he is mean and vial and he has always been obsessed with the dark arts and no one likes him but that doesn't make him bad. I think that there is more too snape than meets the eye. I think that if he wasn't really devoted to Dumbledor, he would have gotten out sooner than he did. And when he performs the Avada Kadavra Curse to kill Dumbledor in the HBP it was differant than it was in all the other books, could it be because his heart wasn't in it. Could it be that he made the unbreakable vow with Dumbledor? Will he be the one that Harry has to turn too in the end for help? I think that would be ironic. I trust Severus Snape until JKR gives me reason to otherwise distrust him.

I think that he had to kill Dumbledor he had no choice! Yes I agree everyone will want his head I don't know I am torn on this point!

I think that he had to kill Dumbledor he had no choice! Yes I agree everyone will want his head I don't know I am torn on this point!

I dont believe Snape is good. But if he is, I dont think he would be allowed back to the good side, especially after killing Dumbledore. Everyone would want to kill Snape for killing Dumbledore.

Unless of course it was all some sort of master plan. Dumbledore told Harry to obey him in the cave and Harry was forced to force-fead Dumbledore the rest of the potion. Perhaps this is somewhat the same thing? Remember Dumbledore said "Severus, please" when the dark mark appeared at Hogwarts and Draco had him 'cornered'? Could it be that he was asking Snape to kill him rather than save him? It just doesn't seem likely to me that Dumbledore would beg for his life. What do you all think?

Snape is GOOD.
I think most of my 20-some post have been used trying to prove this, but I will type it out, yet AGAIN.

So, Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow. He promises to: 1) protect Draco 2) help Draco 3) continue with the task should Draco fail. Now, we are assuming Draco's task is to kill Dumbledore. Snape can not break the Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore knows of this unbreakable vow (arguement between Snape & Dumbledore that Hagrid overheard in the forest, Snape says maybe he no longer want to do "it", Dumbledore says it is too late, he must do "it".). At the astronomy tower, it sounds as though Dumbledore is pleading for Snape to take his life. Therefore, Snape did a GOOD thing.

There, there's my evidence. :D

As much as i'd like to believe Snape is good, killing Dumbledore
pretty much said he wasn't..

Unless he was possessed somehow, or if Dumbledore and Snape already knew what
would happen somehow. Or, as Walli9989 said, it was part of some large plan.

Ugh, i'm torn, haha.

As much as i'd like to believe Snape is good, killing Dumbledore
pretty much said he wasn't..

Unless he was possessed somehow, or if Dumbledore and Snape already knew what
would happen somehow. Or, as Walli9989 said, it was part of some large plan.

Ugh, i'm torn, haha.

But killing Dumbledore doesn't automatically mean he's bad!! Things aren't that black-and-white with Jo. Think about it - almost every book, Harry's been so suspicious of Snape, it seemed so obvious that he was evil...and then we find he was actually good and trying to help Harry.

I don't think Snape's the nicest person, but I do think he is good. Think of all the poor guy's been through! (what Harry saw in the Pensieve... being in love with Lily - that's not certain but to me, it seems right on)

But killing Dumbledore doesn't automatically mean he's bad!! Things aren't that black-and-white with Jo. Think about it - almost every book, Harry's been so suspicious of Snape, it seemed so obvious that he was evil...and then we find he was actually good and trying to help Harry.

I don't think Snape's the nicest person, but I do think he is good. Think of all the poor guy's been through! (what Harry saw in the Pensieve... being in love with Lily - that's not certain but to me, it seems right on)

True, which is why I can't decide :p

Oh. lol. sorry. :blush:

I always thought since Dumbledore had an iron-clad reason for trusting Snape, he was good. I know he may seem evil, but he has alot of bottled up feelings against the Potters. I mean hes in love with this girl, and shes nice to him. And then theres his arch-enemy, who doesnt miss a chance to curse or hex Snape. And guess what happens, they get married and have a baby. You cant really blame him for having awful feelings for Harry, even though I personally dont like the guy.
But there is nothing left that Snape could say or do to convince me that hes good. He killed Dumbledore....you have to mean the avada kedavra, it wont work if you just say it. That to me is Snapes alltime low.....unlesss.....
Unless theres a mastermind plan behind DDs death. Could they have planned it out?? I believe so.... remember the scene where Snape and DD were arguing in the Forest?? Yea.. theres much more behind his death than what meets the eye. I expect Snape to help Harry in some way in DH, even if it means sacrificing himself for the greater good of wizarding kind.

As much as I love to hate Snape, I think that he is good. I read an editorial on MuggleNet and it got me thinking. I believe that it was in the Burrow section, but that is currently closed. It was a theory about a Snape/Lily relationship. But only as friends. It does make sense to me. But if I am proven wrong, I won't be suprised.

Another reason: Can't recall where I read this, but anyway..When Snape is about to kill DD and DD is pleading with him....Is DD the kind of person who would be found pleading when facing his death. No! So, what is he pleading for? It's possible that DD was pleading Snape to kill him. Snape is described as having a look of revulsion on his face. Revulsion at DD, or at the deed he is being asked to do? Now, unless I am totally wrong and Snape loathes DD and has been masking it very effectively all these years, it generally seems that Snape respects DD. Killing someone that I respect might put a look of revulsion on my face too. So if DD was asking Snape to kill him we can assume that there is a reason to the madness. It is likely that DD told Snape to do WHATEVER it takes to keep his role on Voldy's secure.

As much as I love to hate Snape, I think that he is good. I read an editorial on MuggleNet and it got me thinking. I believe that it was in the Burrow section, but that is currently closed. It was a theory about a Snape/Lily relationship. But only as friends. It does make sense to me. But if I am proven wrong, I won't be suprised.

Another reason: Can't recall where I read this, but anyway..When Snape is about to kill DD and DD is pleading with him....Is DD the kind of person who would be found pleading when facing his death. No! So, what is he pleading for? It's possible that DD was pleading Snape to kill him. Snape is described as having a look of revulsion on his face. Revulsion at DD, or at the deed he is being asked to do? Now, unless I am totally wrong and Snape loathes DD and has been masking it very effectively all these years, it generally seems that Snape respects DD. Killing someone that I respect might put a look of revulsion on my face too. So if DD was asking Snape to kill him we can assume that there is a reason to the madness. It is likely that DD told Snape to do WHATEVER it takes to keep his role on Voldy's secure.

lol Exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post:D
I hadn't thought about the look of revulsion though, I was pretty stumped on that one, I just thought he was a good actor but then you write this and I'm like wow:D good theory, right there:D

I believe Snape is good 100% for loads of reasons, a few of which I will attempt to expound:

1. Dumbledore trusts him 100%. Yes, I know that JKR has said that DD has made at least one terrible mistake, and loads of people think that this is it, but DD is not stupid. he's not even naive. He didn't trust the young Tom Riddle, even though he was far more charming and plausible than Snape and had many other wise and good wizards convinced when he was Head Boy of Hogwarts. He was prepared to give Tom the benefit of the doubt for a while, but still watched his back with him all the while and kept a very close eye. Why would DD get that so right and this so wrong?

2. The conversation between Snape and DD that hagrid overhears where he says that DD takes too much for granted, and maybe he doesn't want to do it any more. I think he's talking about not wanting to kill Dumbledore.

3. The "Severus please" ambiguity that a million people have already pointed out

4. the way he gets so upset when Harry accuses him of being a coward at the end of HBP. He's taken all manner of insults from harry withoput showing emotion, but that one touches a raw nerve - is that because he's just done the bravest thing any Order member has ever had to do - commit a deed on DD's orders that revolted him and would turn his whole side against him?

5. The question DD asks him as early as the end of GoF, about if he's ready to do what they've agreed...I don't think that's just talking about rejoining the DE - I think they already had a plan that he would kill DD if necessary way back then. I don't think it was just to avoid breaking the Unbreakable Vow, there was a deeper magic involved.

6. The purely structural point that no mystery writer worth their salt would reveal the villain 1/7 of the way before the end of the book. Would anyone buy an Agatha Christie novel that revealed the murderer on page 300 out of 350? If we already know what side Snape is on, DH is going to be a really boring book, with no suspense.

6. The purely structural point that no mystery writer worth their salt would reveal the villain 1/7 of the way before the end of the book. Would anyone buy an Agatha Christie novel that revealed the murderer on page 300 out of 350? If we already know what side Snape is on, DH is going to be a really boring book, with no suspense.This is a good point (like your other points), but it presupposes that Snape is (or is not) the true villain, when in fact, Voldemort is the villain. Snape is important and ambiguous, but probably not important enough for the question of his loyalty not to be tidied away at the end of book 6 in order to allow us to concentrate on Voldemort, who has been noticeable by his absence in the previous books.

Unless of course it was all some sort of master plan. Dumbledore told Harry to obey him in the cave and Harry was forced to force-fead Dumbledore the rest of the potion. Perhaps this is somewhat the same thing? Remember Dumbledore said "Severus, please" when the dark mark appeared at Hogwarts and Draco had him 'cornered'? Could it be that he was asking Snape to kill him rather than save him? It just doesn't seem likely to me that Dumbledore would beg for his life. What do you all think?

It makes sense. I just dont understand why Dumbledore would ask for Snape to kill him? If I was Dumbledore I would ask Snape to save me.

It makes sense. I just dont understand why Dumbledore would ask for Snape to kill him? If I was Dumbledore I would ask Snape to save me.It is commonly believed that Dumbledore may well have been dying anyway, as a result of the cursed hand. If he allowed Snape to publicly kill him, it would cement Snape's status as Death Eater of the Month/Most Faithful Servant and would allow him to get in really close to Voldemort. This would allow him all sorts of opportunities for spying and sabotage.

It makes sense. I just dont understand why Dumbledore would ask for Snape to kill him? If I was Dumbledore I would ask Snape to save me.

But once again, does Dumbledore really seem like the type of person to beg for his life? I don't think so. Remember Snape was also under the Unbreakable Vow, he had to help Draco in any way that he could. Dumbledore most likely knew this so he asked Snape to kill him in order to save both Snapes and Draco's lives.

I was reading some of what you've all been saying since my last post here and I've come upon a theory that, while it contradicts my own beliefs, it also gives a very good point to discuss. There has to be a reason (for there always is) that JKR phrases that Dumbledore "trust(s)(ed) Snape". It does not say that he liked him or thought he was good, just that he TRUSTED him. Here is one possiblity for the wording!

The point that Dumbledore trusted Snape is brought up in all conversations concerning Snape, however, this doesn't mean that Dumbledore though he was good. This only means that Dumbledore trusted him. For all we know, Dumbledore could have known that Snape was evil from the beginning and still trusted that he would do what was right when the time came.

A discussion from Mugglecast (seriously, you should watch it!!!! I mean it!!!http://mugglecast.net) comes to mind. They were discussing if you can be born evil. My thought is that the answer is NO. No one is born evil because we are all born with a baby's innocence. When you come into this world, you don't know anything, and everything that you eventually will come to know and everything that you are is a reflection of the people you are around and the places you are. However, for anyone who wishes to point this out, I am NOT saying that the person does not have a choice, I am just saying that a base for who you are comes from your environment, after that, you have a choice whether or not to become like your environment. Anyway, back to the Snape thing.

Dumbledore may have trusted Snape to do the right thing when the time came, but not that he was good. This would then mean that it would have been easy for Snape to MEAN the curse because he would be evil and have something to help him concentrate and mean this curse. However, all of the things that he has done that is right, would only be that he knew that it was right and something in his conscience told him he needed to do what he did. Either that, or we will find out in the 7th book that all of the things he did was him trying to be evil, and Harry snaking out of the consequences!

Like previously noted, I personally think he is good, but I was just wondering what everyone else thought of this idea!

Well said pickleperson15(you're name cracks me up:lol: )
People DO become evil by their environment as displayed by Malfoy. I only see him as a bully, not as a trully evil person. In Voldemorts case, he became evil by wanting more and more power.

Dumbledore may have trusted Snape to do the right thing when the time came, but not that he was good.

This may be true but I don't think it is. Dumbledore does believe in the good in everyone but if he thought that Snape was still evil, he would NOT have given him all of the extra information about the Order and everything unless he truly thought he was good. That's just my opinion though:)

Well said pickleperson15(you're name cracks me up )

Thank you Walli9989. I like it too!

Also, i'm glad you agree with me on the evil thing!

I also like that you responded to my strange theory that goes against my own beliefs!!! lol THANK YOU!

This may be true but I don't think it is. Dumbledore does believe in the good in everyone but if he thought that Snape was still evil, he would NOT have given him all of the extra information about the Order and everything unless he truly thought he was good. That's just my opinion though:)

I agree. His trusting of Snape is totally different to his "trusting" of Malfoy on the tower. He seems to trust Snape more than anyone else in the Order - asking him to treat his Horcrux-destruction wounds suggests that he has told Snape everything about this mission - something so secret that he forbids Harry to reveal it to anyone other than Hermione and Ron (Harry, remember, on Dumbledore's orders, conceals this even from McGonagall).

Originally posted by anabel
This is a good point (like your other points), but it presupposes that Snape is (or is not) the true villain, when in fact, Voldemort is the villain. Snape is important and ambiguous, but probably not important enough for the question of his loyalty not to be tidied away at the end of book 6 in order to allow us to concentrate on Voldemort, who has been noticeable by his absence in the previous books.

Thanks. * blush*!

Yes, I see what you mean - with Voldemort so much more in the foreground in the last book than he has been previously, will there be that much room for Snape? I know that, like a lot of Snape-obsessed readers, I do tend to lose a sense of perspective sometimes in terms of how important he is as part of the overall scheme, and yours is an excellent point.

I still think, however, that Voldemort's being the incarnation of pure evil means that he provides few possibilities for the creation of suspense, and that, partly because the books hinge on exciting plotting, JKR has needed an is-he-or-isn't-he? character like Snape as well as the main villain to keep the suspense levels up. However, I can see that the hunt for the Horcruxes and for the truth about Godric's Hollow may well fill the suspense gap in the last book, so a further twist about Snape may be unnecessary.

Obviously, though, I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, because my gut feeling is Snape is good.

Originally posted by lilsnuffles
I just dont understand why Dumbledore would ask for Snape to kill him? If I was Dumbledore I would ask Snape to save me.

I can see where you're coming from, because the frequently offered reasons that he's trying to protect Snape's cover or he's trying to save Snape from dying because Snape apparently rashly rushed blindly into an Unbreakable Vow, seem a little unsatisfying to me.

I think there's a deeper reason. I'm guessing wildly here, but as Lily's sacrifice to save Harry effected the most powerful magic of the whole series, I'm wondering if DD's death at Snape's hands (DD willingly laying down his own life and Snape willingly carrying out the act that most revolts him and which will make him universally hated) has been carefully planned bu DD as a double sacrifice to create some powerful magic.

I can see where you're coming from, because the frequently offered reasons that he's trying to protect Snape's cover or he's trying to save Snape from dying because Snape apparently rashly rushed blindly into an Unbreakable Vow, seem a little unsatisfying to me.Indeed, they are unsatisfying. Especially since we don’t know if Dumbledore actually believed Snape made a vow in the first place. The way I read it: it seems that Dumbledore didn’t belief about the vow in the first place, which is confirmed by Dumbledore’s attempt to make Draco fail. Why would Dumbledore do that if the only effect would be that either Snape dies or Snape had to kill Dumbledore? Let Draco keep on trying without success seems a safer route.

Snape doesn’t seem to have a chance to return to the good side. Who will belief him? Still doesn’t mean that he will be loyal to Voldemort though. Snape being in Voldemort’s service by choice with a life debt tying him to Harry could make an interesting last book…

I agree. His trusting of Snape is totally different to his "trusting" of Malfoy on the tower. He seems to trust Snape more than anyone else in the Order - asking him to treat his Horcrux-destruction wounds suggests that he has told Snape everything about this mission - something so secret that he forbids Harry to reveal it to anyone other than Hermione and Ron (Harry, remember, on Dumbledore's orders, conceals this even from McGonagall).

I think there's a deeper reason. I'm guessing wildly here, but as Lily's sacrifice to save Harry effected the most powerful magic of the whole series, I'm wondering if DD's death at Snape's hands (DD willingly laying down his own life and Snape willingly carrying out the act that most revolts him and which will make him universally hated) has been carefully planned bu DD as a double sacrifice to create some powerful magic.

My pleasure pickleperson:D
And yayyy for the excellent example that Melaszka gave:clap: I'd completely forgotten about that little detail about Dumbledore's orders etc.
Hmmm...wow, I never thought about it like that...about the double sacrifice thing...that's something to think about. You just might be onto something...Maybe it might break the Unbreakable Vow or weakened it or something? Any thought anyone?

I think a living DD is worth more than this suggested ancient magic (the double sacrifice).
On the other hand, If DD was going to die anyway, it could be much more helpfull.

Oh and I think Snape is good. Just know he is :p

I think a living DD is worth more than this suggested ancient magic (the double sacrifice).
On the other hand, If DD was going to die anyway, it could be much more helpfull.

Oh and I think Snape is good. Just know he is :p

...I don't quite understand your post... :huh: I think I'm just missing something but what could be much more helpful? Dumbledore is he were alive? If that's what you were saying then I completely agree:D

snape is good, i think he and dumbledore had this idea that snape will kill/help kill dumbledore as dumbledore was dying anyway, and leave a memory of this conversation in dumbledores penseive so harry would know that snape will help him, snape can then give important information from the inside to harry to help him find the horcruxes.

...I don't quite understand your post... :huh: I think I'm just missing something but what could be much more helpful? Dumbledore is he were alive? If that's what you were saying then I completely agree:D

I mean that if DD was going to die anyway, he would help the order more by letting Snape kill him and make everyone believe he's with Voldemort, than by staying alive for X more days.

I was reading some of what you've all been saying since my last post here and I've come upon a theory that, while it contradicts my own beliefs, it also gives a very good point to discuss.

The point that Dumbledore trusted Snape is brought up in all conversations concerning Snape, however, this doesn't mean that Dumbledore though he was good. This only means that Dumbledore trusted him. For all we know, Dumbledore could have known that Snape was evil from the beginning and still trusted that he would do what was right when the time came.

A discussion from Mugglecast (listen to it) comes to mind. They were discussing if you can be born evil. My thought is that the answer is NO. No one is born evil because we are all born with a baby's innocence. When you come into this world, you don't know anything, and everything that you eventually will come to know and everything that you are is a reflection of the people you are around and the places you are. However, for anyone who wishes to point this out, I am NOT saying that the person does not have a choice, I am just saying that a base for who you are comes from your environment, after that, you have a choice whether or not to become like your environment. Anyway, back to the Snape thing.

Dumbledore may have trusted Snape to do the right thing when the time came, but not that he was good. This would then mean that it would have been easy for Snape to MEAN the curse because he would be evil and have something to help him concentrate and mean this curse. However, all of the things that he has done that is right, would only be that he knew that it was right and something in his conscience told him he needed to do what he did. Either that, or we will find out in the 7th book that all of the things he did was him trying to be evil, and Harry snaking out of the consequences!

Like previously noted, I personally think he is good, but I was just wondering what everyone else thought of this idea!
I´m not sure I understand where you are going at here. You say Dumbledore trusted Snape but thought he was evil? In the sense of: He is still a DE? Or are you talking about character traits. In the sense of: Snape is an unpleasant person but he fights for the good side?

I also think Snape is good, gut instinct as well. I think thought that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill but Snape was not aware of that part of the plan. I think the books says his face was etched with hatred and revulsion?? I think he was mad at Dumbledore for making him do that... but Dumbledore has other reasons for dying, perhaps, noone knows the reasons except himself. There are definite reasons why he chose to die and be bured at Hogwarts. However, they will be revealed in book 7 as well as Snape being good... I think!

I was reading some of what you've all been saying since my last post here and I've come upon a theory that, while it contradicts my own beliefs, it also gives a very good point to discuss.

The point that Dumbledore trusted Snape is brought up in all conversations concerning Snape, however, this doesn't mean that Dumbledore though he was good. This only means that Dumbledore trusted him. For all we know, Dumbledore could have known that Snape was evil from the beginning and still trusted that he would do what was right when the time came.

A discussion from Mugglecast (listen to it) comes to mind. They were discussing if you can be born evil. My thought is that the answer is NO. No one is born evil because we are all born with a baby's innocence. When you come into this world, you don't know anything, and everything that you eventually will come to know and everything that you are is a reflection of the people you are around and the places you are. However, for anyone who wishes to point this out, I am NOT saying that the person does not have a choice, I am just saying that a base for who you are comes from your environment, after that, you have a choice whether or not to become like your environment. Anyway, back to the Snape thing.

Dumbledore may have trusted Snape to do the right thing when the time came, but not that he was good. This would then mean that it would have been easy for Snape to MEAN the curse because he would be evil and have something to help him concentrate and mean this curse. However, all of the things that he has done that is right, would only be that he knew that it was right and something in his conscience told him he needed to do what he did. Either that, or we will find out in the 7th book that all of the things he did was him trying to be evil, and Harry snaking out of the consequences!

Like previously noted, I personally think he is good, but I was just wondering what everyone else thought of this idea!

Sorry to contradict you, my good friend, but I'm comfuzzed. So, you thought Dumbledore trusted Snape, but thought he was evil? I got to say, as much as Dumbledore trusted Snape, you would think that Dumbly thought he was on the good side. It's a good post, though.:clap:

I´m not sure I understand where you are going at here. You say Dumbledore trusted Snape but thought he was evil? In the sense of: He is still a DE? Or are you talking about character traits. In the sense of: Snape is an unpleasant person but he fights for the good side?

in the sense of character trait. It is pretty hard to think that DUMBLEDORE, of all people would trust a DE, even in the sense of trust that I was talking about.

Sorry to contradict you, my good friend, but I'm comfuzzed. So, you thought Dumbledore trusted Snape, but thought he was evil? I got to say, as much as Dumbledore trusted Snape, you would think that Dumbly thought he was on the good side. It's a good post, though.

harryhugger, like I said this completely contradicts my own beliefs. However, it is just a though and I wanted to see what others thought of it! THough you're right. it was quite a good post, wasn't it?

The whole controversy around Snape baffles me. I think I'll just sit back and see what becomes of him. He's most def. terrible but enjoyable, with greasy hair adn pincer-like grip, but he's playing both sides in my opinion. He likes the power I think.

I don't know. I just have a bad feeling that (Professor) Snape is evil. I think Dumbledore's greatest weakness was his trust in everyone's good side. But then again, the way that Snape kills Dumbledore, no hesitation, no gloating, nothing, really makes it seem planned, like both of them knew he was going to do it. Because if it was say, Voldemort, killing Dumbledore, he would certainly laugh or say something, not just hurry up and kill him. Like a cat toying with a mouse. But that really makes me think. As we saw in OOTP, Dumbledore actually went up against Voldemort and almost destroyed him with that mysterious unspoken spell. Like harry thought in the begginning, some people, like Dumbledore, can cast spells without saying them. Then there's no doubt that Dumbledore could have somehow, without a wand and without saying anything, defended himself against Snape. But this also brings up the fact that Dumbledore didn't do anything because of the fact that he trusted Snape. There's just too many possibilities.

But then again, the way that Snape kills Dumbledore, no hesitation, no gloating, nothing, really makes it seem planned, like both of them knew he was going to do it. Because if it was say, Voldemort, killing Dumbledore, he would certainly laugh or say something, not just hurry up and kill him. Like a cat toying with a mouse. But that really makes me think. As we saw in OOTP, Dumbledore actually went up against Voldemort and almost destroyed him with that mysterious unspoken spell. Like harry thought in the begginning, some people, like Dumbledore, can cast spells without saying them. Then there's no doubt that Dumbledore could have somehow, without a wand and without saying anything, defended himself against Snape. But this also brings up the fact that Dumbledore didn't do anything because of the fact that he trusted Snape. There's just too many possibilities.



I agree that Dumbledore trusted Snape. I also agree that he did nothing to defend himself.

BUT, I think Snape didn't toy with Dumbledore because he didn't want to kill him. If you go back to the scene when Snape murders DD, and keep in mind that both are skilled at occlumens, you could wonder id DD wasn't pleading for his life, but his death.

"But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.

'Severus...'

The sound frightend Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time Dumbledore was pleading. ...Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revultion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

'Severus...please...' "

If DD needed Snape to stay undercover, he could have sacrificed himself. Remember, he wasn't afraid of death.

Two things... First Dumbledore said "Sevrus... Please! because he was pleading him to do what must be done. The look of hatred on Snapes face was not a hatred toward Dumbledore, it was a look of hatred for what he was about to do, and where his life would take him because of the action he vowed to commit. Snape will be in the room at the end, in the last battle and he will show his true colors I promise you.

One last point. I was just reading the OOtP, and came across something kind of surprising. JKR went to great lengths to say that Umbridge wore ugly old rings, and when she touched Harry after the detention on Friday, which caused Harry the most discomfort, again JKR said that she touched Harry with her "be-ringed" hand. Is it a coincedence??? Could the fact that the first time Harry's scar really hurts in this book, and the fact that Umbridge touched him with the hand that had rings on it not have anything to do with anything????? Im pretty sure Umbridge is a D.E. and she either has a horcrux on her body, (another ring) or that Dumbledore destroyed that Horcrux already.

6. The purely structural point that no mystery writer worth their salt would reveal the villain 1/7 of the way before the end of the book. Would anyone buy an Agatha Christie novel that revealed the murderer on page 300 out of 350? If we already know what side Snape is on, DH is going to be a really boring book, with no suspense.[/QUOTE]

I believe you about Snape, but on your structural point I must disagree. In fact, in all well written mystery books, including Agatha Christie books. the murder is introduced as one of the first 10 characters you meet in the book. Dont believe me??? Go read the ABC murders. The murderer is the third character you are introduced to.... And my wife said that taking mystery and supernatural in college would do me no good

I believe you about Snape, but on your structural point I must disagree. In fact, in all well written mystery books, including Agatha Christie books. the murder is introduced as one of the first 10 characters you meet in the book. Dont believe me??? Go read the ABC murders. The murderer is the third character you are introduced to.... And my wife said that taking mystery and supernatural in college would do me no good

I think we may be talking at cross purposes - i agree that in mysteries we're introduced to the murderer as a character early on, but my point was that we're not blatantly told s/he is the murderer until the last few pages. I don't believe that, having kept us guessing for nearly 6 books, JKR would show us Snape's true colours a whole book before the end of the series (unless, as anabel suggested, he is intended as a merely ancillary character and she's pretty much finished his story now, with the last book concentrating on Voldemort as the supreme villain).

I think Dumbledore's greatest weakness was his trust in everyone's good side.

DD is not a stupid man. He is extremely humble and does in fact say that because he is so intelligent, some of the smaller things go over his head, so to speak. But, DD is not foolish or dull. He had a conviction that lasted decades. That type of trust is not based off of a small reason, or even the reason that Harry and Co. think DD trusted Snape. We are missing some pieces of the puzzle here because there is no way that DD would trust somebody so vigilantly for so long if he were not abolutely sure. I bjust don't see something like that slipping by DD. He is an extremely good judgle of character, and does not simply (or foolishly) trust the bad guys.

Harry thought that he was trusting Malfoy, when all the long DD had an extremely important reason for not calling Malfoy out on the incidents for which he was at blame. He knew that (a) Malfoy would be in grave danger if LV knew DD knew what he was up to (b) that Malfoy probably was not capable of murder and (c) that if he could pursuade Malfow to the Order's side, it would be of great benefit to both Malfoy himself and to the Order.

Harry called DD "insane" when he thought that DD was trusting Tom Riddle when he went to Hogwarts, until he remembers what the memory/horcrux Riddle told him about DD never really liking him. It was only when Harry got the second half of the story that he realized that DD was not being stupid.

It should continue to be enough that DD's trust proves Snape's goodness (if not innocence). DD has never lied to Harry. Whenever he thinks he may be wrong, he does say so (even when he was extremely correct, as in the case of the Horcruxes). The flaw of the book, or I suppose the thing that makes the book so wonderful, is that we generally only see Harry's perspective and never really get the whole story. Harry is determined to hate Snape, and Snape never did much to help himself as far as everyone else goes in the Order. But we are missing information because of the Harry-Lens, and I think that is why it is so easy to be convinced that Snape is a terrible guy.

i think snape is good.
remember when snape and dumbledore were fighting and hagrid saw?
well i think that dumbledore wanted snape to kill him so harry wouldnt feel like a kid anymore.:wow:
and if snape did it in front of deatheaters they would trust him and snape could help harry defete voldemort

Yes, Snape is good. Yeah I know its depressing, but get over it!!! If you don't believe me, then read the "What will happen in Book 7" written by the mugglenet staff!!!

I believe you about Snape, but on your structural point I must disagree. In fact, in all well written mystery books, including Agatha Christie books. the murder is introduced as one of the first 10 characters you meet in the book. Dont believe me??? Go read the ABC murders. The murderer is the third character you are introduced to.... And my wife said that taking mystery and supernatural in college would do me no good

She means Snape's villainy would not be revealed so early. In Christie, we meet the murderer early, but we are not shown it until the very end when the detective gives the explanation. There may be subtle clues we could use to figure it out, of course. But the killing if Dumbledore could not be described as a subtle clue...

f course Snape was introduced early (in series terms), in the chapter of the Welcoming feast in PS/SS. He is one of the important adult characters of the series, with some part to play in each of the books.

Yes, Snape is good. Yeah I know its depressing, but get over it!!! If you don't believe me, then read the "What will happen in Book 7" written by the mugglenet staff!!!


Depressing? On the contrary, I think it will make for an exciting Book 7.

i think some of you aren't thinking about the basics said.

Snape was trusted by dumbledore.
I think Snape could've been trusted,
but he wanted to save his own butt.
He reacted to get glory, and to save his neck he killed dumbledore for malfoy.
but what if dumbledore asked him too
and for that reason
dumbledore stunned harry in the 6th book, 3rd to last chapter,
JUST so he wouldn't react and go after before he could get any where for qualitative information.
Just think about it.,
Snape was trusted by Dumbledore, and everyone had their doubts about dumbledore trustin him every once in a whle
but most of the time i would think,.
hey, ron has a point.
i think at the end of book 7.
snape will give an apology,
but harry will think it isn't worthy.
so snape will go psycho
(yes, i know, a little off, but with JKR. who knows?!)
and will do anything to protect Voldy.

Maybe. this leads to answers: snape may be one of the ones who dies, or
A horcrux, because voldemort trusted snape with everything, and therefore thought if he was a teacher, no one would dare attack him,
especially under the influence of dumbledore watching his nose.

I have strong opinions that do in fact matter,
whether they are correct or false.
You tell me,
Or we can wait,
and not ruin anyones anxiety
So.
Thankyou!
Send me an owl regarding any of this, if you are against it,
Its like 10:15 pm here, and
i'll check in the morning.
KEEP POSTING.

AimeeLemieux.

She means Snape's villainy would not be revealed so early. In Christie, we meet the murderer early, but we are not shown it until the very end when the detective gives the explanation. There may be subtle clues we could use to figure it out, of course. But the killing if Dumbledore could not be described as a subtle clue....


Thanks, zgirnius, that is exactly what I meant.

hey, ron has a point.

And what is that? :huh:

I have seen many people say that the reason they think that Snape is good is because it would be too cliche, too obvious that he is bad. Therefore, to avoid the obvious, he has to be good. But I can see from the huge amount of argument about Snape, that it is not obvious at all! I don't think it is black or white, good or bad, no one really is.

I have also seen the argument that Dumbledore is not stupid, so he must have been right when he trusted Snape. Anyone can be betrayed. The fault is with the betrayer, not the one who trusts.

I have also seen the argument that Dumbledore is not stupid, so he must have been right when he trusted Snape. Anyone can be betrayed. The fault is with the betrayer, not the one who trusts.


Actually I like that point. It was not the stupidity of Dumbledore but the smartness and shrewdness of Snape that he fooled a person like Dumbledore....I mean we always say that Dumbledore can't be as stupid as that but the point is that Dumbledore is not stupid....no where near...he is smart but Snape outsmarted him and that is why he fooled Dumbledore in believing that he is not bad and that he is dedicated to serve the order.

She means Snape's villainy would not be revealed so early. In Christie, we meet the murderer early, but we are not shown it until the very end when the detective gives the explanation. There may be subtle clues we could use to figure it out, of course. But the killing if Dumbledore could not be described as a subtle clue...

f course Snape was introduced early (in series terms), in the chapter of the Welcoming feast in PS/SS. He is one of the important adult characters of the series, with some part to play in each of the books.
But JKR doesn’t write an Agatha Christie story if you look at the series as a whole. We are introduced to the main villain of the series in the first chapter of the first book and he remains the “big” villain throughout the series. There never is a mystery about the real villain in the series: it is and will remain Voldemort.

We might look at the individual books for Christie elements, to solve the plot of each book. But even in those cases the “villain for the book” is not always a mystery introduced in the beginning only to be revealed as a villain at the end. Quirrell was introduced in the beginning but was the diary of Riddle, Pettigrew, Crouch jr. introduced at the beginning? They only showed up during the course of the book. One might argue that in each book a villain is exposed at the end, like Quirrell, young Riddle, Pettigrew, Crouch jr., Umbridge & the MoM. But following this line of thinking Snape is the villain of the 6th book, exposed at the end. But somehow this last villain is a tad controversial.
But that problem originates from trying to understand the series as a who-dun-it mystery, as if JKR is writing detective stories.
JKR writes character driven stories, trying to understand each book as an old fashioned detective when not all books follow this pattern won’t solve Snape’s loyalties.

but was the diary of Riddle, Pettigrew, Crouch jr. introduced at the beginning? They only showed up during the course of the book.

Actually, the diary (as Ginny's diary), Pettigrew (as Scabbers), and Crouch (as Moody) all appear relatively early. Crouch as himself appears under an Invisibility Cloak even before Moody. The information which allows us to realize these three items/persons are villains is presented later, just as in a mystery. Some of it is simply far more arcane than a mystery clue (objects can be enchanted to possess their users, wizards can turn into rats).

One might argue that in each book a villain is exposed at the end, like Quirrell, young Riddle, Pettigrew, Crouch jr., Umbridge & the MoM. But following this line of thinking Snape is the villain of the 6th book, exposed at the end. But somehow this last villain is a tad controversial.

He is also handled differently. In the other books, we have the pattern of a 'villain speech' and a wrap-up of all the loose ends.

PS/SS: Quirrell reveals Voldemort in his head, and the plans, to Harry when Harry reaches the Mirror; Harry and Dumbledore also talk about it after.
CoS: Riddle explains all about his plans to kill Ginny and then Harry, to Harry. Again Dumbledpore and Harry talk afterwards.
PoA: In the Shack Peter is revealed, and admits his role in the Potters' deaths. Again, Harry and Dumbledore talk it over and all is explained.
GoF: Crouch is interrogated under Veritaserum by Dumbledore, again we learn all.
OotP: I disagree with your identification of the primary villain here. It was in my view Voldemort. He appeared in the MoM, and admitted he was the author of the plan to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries. And again, we got our explanation.

Now, I will grant that Dumbledore was in no position to explain all to Harry (and to us) at the end of Book 6. Rowling could have left that role to someone else, though, but she did not. More significantly, in my view, we did NOT get the villain speech. Snape really ought to have taken a couple of seconds to let us all know that he had fooled Dumbledore completely and was off to receive his reward. Either on the Tower, or in the following scene with Harry. But he never did.

I actually agree that Rowling writes convincing characters-this does not mean she can't be using elements of the mystery novel in her books.

But JKR doesn’t write an Agatha Christie story if you look at the series as a whole. We are introduced to the main villain of the series in the first chapter of the first book and he remains the “big” villain throughout the series. There never is a mystery about the real villain in the series: it is and will remain Voldemort.

We might look at the individual books for Christie elements, to solve the plot of each book. But even in those cases the “villain for the book” is not always a mystery introduced in the beginning only to be revealed as a villain at the end. Quirrell was introduced in the beginning but was the diary of Riddle, Pettigrew, Crouch jr. introduced at the beginning? They only showed up during the course of the book. One might argue that in each book a villain is exposed at the end, like Quirrell, young Riddle, Pettigrew, Crouch jr., Umbridge & the MoM. But following this line of thinking Snape is the villain of the 6th book, exposed at the end. But somehow this last villain is a tad controversial.
But that problem originates from trying to understand the series as a who-dun-it mystery, as if JKR is writing detective stories.
JKR writes character driven stories, trying to understand each book as an old fashioned detective when not all books follow this pattern won’t solve Snape’s loyalties.

I take your points, but I still maintain that JKR has used Snape repeatedly throughout the series to create suspense by playing games with the readers about his supposed loyalties, in a somewhat similar way to the way in which detective fiction writers use a false villain as a red herring. I think it very unlikely that she would suddenly stop doing that 6/7 of the way through the series and write a 7th book with either no false villain or a different choice. It's possible, but I find it unlikely.

I'm probably inviting brickbats by daring to utter this on a Potter site, but I don't find JKR's stories particularly character driven at all - I think character is frequently subordinated to plot and theme in the books. I'm not saying that as a criticism - the focus on plot and suspense is what I love about the books. In fact, working in a literary field myself, I often find myself defending JKR's books (as well as a lot of the detective fiction which I also love) against snobbish accusations from my friends and colleagues that it's not "literary" enough. Plot not being a dirty word is one of my most passionately held soapbox issues.

JKR may not be writing detective novels, but I believe that she is heavily influenced by detective fiction writers (I think someone on CoS once quoted her as saying that she's a big fan of Colin Dexter)and her frequent game-playing and deliberate trickery of the reader through devices like an unreliable narrative viewpoint and ambiguous language draws heavily on that genre, so I don't think it's inadmissible to analyse the books using the standards of the genre.

Finally, I would like to point out that the structural comparison with whodunnits was point number 6 on a long list of reasons I gave why I thought Snape was good - it's not my main or only reson for holding to that view.

No offence any Snape fans, but I think Snape is puer evil and allways was, I sincerly hope he dies in book seven. Remember no offence intended, Snape fans.

... but I still maintain that JKR has used Snape repeatedly throughout the series to create suspense by playing games with the readers about his supposed loyalties, in a somewhat similar way to the way in which detective fiction writers use a false villain as a red herring. I think it very unlikely that she would suddenly stop doing that 6/7 of the way through the series and write a 7th book with either no false villain or a different choice. It's possible, but I find it unlikely.There is one thing that I am expecting from book 7 and that is to finally know the answers to why Snape acted as he did throughout all seven books. And once we get that information, we will be able to look at the past six books and see that Snape's actions were always consistent.

If Snape is really good he is now going to have the worst time of his life. By killing DD he should become Lord V's right hand man. This will mean that he will be given more and worse things to do. If he reallly does them then he's evil, but how can he pretend to do them and hide the fact he didn't. I think he will have Bella watching him all the time as she is jealous of his taking her place as Lord V's favorite.

Perhaps the concept of 'Snape is Good'is misleading. JKR says that Snape is not necessarily a 'good' person and that he's allowed his hate and resentment of the Potters, as well his personal idealogy to affect his behaviou towards others and his actions.

Snape is probably NOT a good person. At least not in the sense that Dumbledore is good or Arthur Weasley is good... but in all probability, he is on the good side. Taking the extent of Dumbledore's trust in Snape, it would be very almost impossible to resolve this trust in a logica manner if Snape turns out to be on the bad side... at some point DD actually says that "Snape is no more a death eater than I am"... If Snape managed to hoodwink DD to THIS extent, then everything Dumbledore has ever said is in doubt.

Logically, Snape is on the good side (though he's probably not a good person), has always been on the good side and we'll see him doing something drastic/heroic in DH.

I have another question about Snape. In Ootp, the reason that Umbridge came to Hogwarts is because Dumbledore could not find a suitable DADA teacher, but in HBP Snape is finally given the job. Does this mean that Dumbledore did not find Snape to be a suitable teacher in Ootp, and could only use him as a last resort in HBP because he could not find anyone else, or was he given the position in HBP as part of the big plan???

I think he did not give Snape the position in OotP because he did not want to risk losing him in a year. In HBP, circumstances had changed, because Voldemort was out in the open. I don't believe in the big plan, but I do think that Snape and Dumbledore planned for Snape to go back to Voldemort by the end of the year, and they figured the curse would cause that to happen. It was also important to have someone good at the job teaching DADA, both for students to learn from, and for his skills, which saved the lives of Katie Bell and Draco Malfoy.

... I do think that Snape and Dumbledore planned for Snape to go back to Voldemort by the end of the year, and they figured the curse would cause that to happen.

I'm not entirely clear on what curse you're referring to here ???

If Snape is really good he is now going to have the worst time of his life. By killing DD he should become Lord V's right hand man. This will mean that he will be given more and worse things to do. If he reallly does them then he's evil, but how can he pretend to do them and hide the fact he didn't. I think he will have Bella watching him all the time as she is jealous of his taking her place as Lord V's favorite.Good point, I like it to make myself on occasion.

But I do feel this is the problem with all this sending Snape to Voldemort plans. In doing so Snape has been brought in the excellent position to do Voldemort’s bidding. He no longer can’t hide behind his spy status to wriggle himself out of action as Bella claims he did.

It’s just inconceivable that Dumbledore and Snape devised a plan which, in the end, can only work with Voldemort’s cooperation. But if Voldemort is his usual self he will set his deatheaters tasks to fulfil. And Voldemort’s tasks include torture and murder.

It is one thing for Dumbledore to give his life for Snape, Draco and getting Snape a good position at Voldemort’s headquarters. But in doing so he guaranteed in a way that Snape will have to act on Voldemort’s orders. Did Dumbledore give his life so other innocents will die by Snape’s hand? And I can’t see a scenario in which Dumbledore could foresee what kind of tasks Voldemort would set Snape. But if Dumbledore made a plan like this he not only sacrificed his own life, he scarified other (innocent) lives as well. Can’t see Dumbledore doing that.

Same thing with Dumbledore’s plan to prevent that Draco became a killer. Here, unlike with Snape, we know that Dumbledore had a plan. Prevent Draco from killing him and separate Draco from Voldemort. Snape stopped this plan in its tracks as well. What will Voldemort order Draco now? What use is it for Draco that he didn’t kill Dumbledore only if he is ordered to kill some bystander?

It’s really difficult to see how Snape acted on Dumbledore’s orders on the tower when he did not do with Draco what Dumbledore wanted.

But I do feel this is the problem with all this sending Snape to Voldemort plans. In doing so Snape has been brought in the excellent position to do Voldemort’s bidding. He no longer can’t hide behind his spy status to wriggle himself out of action as Bella claims he did.

It’s just inconceivable that Dumbledore and Snape devised a plan which, in the end, can only work with Voldemort’s cooperation. But if Voldemort is his usual self he will set his deatheaters tasks to fulfil. And Voldemort’s tasks include torture and murder.

Good Point... perhaps what DD intended was not for Snape to 'remain' with LV indefintely (or at least until Harry defeats him), but for Snape to accomplish something (what???) and then 'return to the good side'... but that's too far fetched I think.

It’s really difficult to see how Snape acted on Dumbledore’s orders on the tower when he did not do with Draco what Dumbledore wanted.

All he did with Draco, to our certain knowledge, is help him to leave Hogwarts. Not even together, necessarily. Draco left before Snape, because Snape stayed behind to cover the Death Eaters' escape from Hogwarts. (Arguably because it permitted him to make sure that they would not harm Harry, who was chasing them alone).

I'm not entirely clear on what curse you're referring to here ???

The curse on the position of DADA teacher. Dumbledore knows that he can naver keep them around for more than a year.

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<<It is one thing for Dumbledore to give his life for Snape, Draco and getting Snape a good position at Voldemort’s headquarters. But in doing so he guaranteed in a way that Snape will have to act on Voldemort’s orders. Did Dumbledore give his life so other innocents will die by Snape’s hand? And I can’t see a scenario in which Dumbledore could foresee what kind of tasks Voldemort would set Snape. But if Dumbledore made a plan like this he not only sacrificed his own life, he scarified other (innocent) lives as well. Can’t see Dumbledore doing that.

Same thing with Dumbledore’s plan to prevent that Draco became a killer. Here, unlike with Snape, we know that Dumbledore had a plan. Prevent Draco from killing him and separate Draco from Voldemort. Snape stopped this plan in its tracks as well. What will Voldemort order Draco now? What use is it for Draco that he didn’t kill Dumbledore only if he is ordered to kill some bystander?

It’s really difficult to see how Snape acted on Dumbledore’s orders on the tower when he did not do with Draco what Dumbledore wanted>>


I think he did do what DD exactly. Harry saw that Draco wasnt as evil as he is percieved, that he is being forced into his situation, and its fear of being killed and not evil or anger or even hate that is causing him to act this way, and in the long run, by the end of book 7, this will play an important part in the plot (Im not totally uncovinced that Draco plays some part in the prophecy... Like maybe Draco might be the one in the end who actually the prophecy was about, Think about it, Snape heard it, he told Volde, and if in fact Draco was born in July (which I know his birthdate says he was not, but is it possible this was changed to protect him), he may have gone to Lucius about the prophecy as well to keep Draco safe, as it is evident that Snape and Lucius are tight.)

In this respect, Harry is going to need Dracos help in the end.

Also remember that Snape is Volde's favorite, he never ordered Snape to kill Dumbledore, and probably didnt know about the Unbreakable vow. I dont think that Snape, who will even be more revered in Volde's eyes will be doing grunt work such as killing or torturing people. I kind of see him like Darth Vader to the Emperor, Darth Vader wasnt sent out to kill everyone after the Jedi purge that is, he was more of the general who sat back and directed the show, so I dont think that Snape will be killing innocent people, and probably wont be in a situation to have to kill someone else, until the end of the book, and I do have a scene in mind how does this sound...

Volde and Harry are dueling, and once again the wands produce the prior incatando(Sp) and everyone is there again watching, Lilly starts pleading with Snape to saver her son, and that he owes Lilly something. Snape acts on it and kills Voldemort while his in locked with Harry.

Thats my thought