Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v4

I think he did do what DD exactly. Harry saw that Draco wasnt as evil as he is percieved, that he is being forced into his situation, and its fear of being killed and not evil or anger or even hate that is causing him to act this way, and in the long run, by the end of book 7, this will play an important part in the plot (Im not totally uncovinced that Draco plays some part in the prophecy... Like maybe Draco might be the one in the end who actually the prophecy was about, Think about it, Snape heard it, he told Volde, and if in fact Draco was born in July (which I know his birthdate says he was not, but is it possible this was changed to protect him), he may have gone to Lucius about the prophecy as well to keep Draco safe, as it is evident that Snape and Lucius are tight.)

You might be interested in the Draco is the Chosen One thread then.. but we do have canon that Harry is the one so...

In this respect, Harry is going to need Dracos help in the end.

JKR clearly said that Draco and Harry will never fight on the same side... so unless draco does something that unwittingly helps Harry, there's very little chance that Draco will willingly help Harry.

Also remember that Snape is Volde's favorite, he never ordered Snape to kill Dumbledore, and probably didnt know about the Unbreakable vow. I dont think that Snape, who will even be more revered in Volde's eyes will be doing grunt work such as killing or torturing people. I kind of see him like Darth Vader to the Emperor, Darth Vader wasnt sent out to kill everyone after the Jedi purge that is, he was more of the general who sat back and directed the show, so I dont think that Snape will be killing innocent people, and probably wont be in a situation to have to kill someone else, until the end of the book, and I do have a scene in mind how does this sound...

Volde and Harry are dueling, and once again the wands produce the prior incatando(Sp) and everyone is there again watching, Lilly starts pleading with Snape to saver her son, and that he owes Lilly something. Snape acts on it and kills Voldemort while his in locked with Harry.

Thats my thought

I agree completely on the bit that Snape will assume a "second-in-command" type of position after successfully killing DD. That's more of a 'strategic' position and I don't see it involving a lot of action on Snape's part... even Voldemort does not seem to do much leg work himself, does he? He uses his DE and Dementors, etc. to do the work while he's sitting there plotting and planning and it seems logical to assume that Snape will be there with him now that Snape managed to rid Voldemort of his greatest problem: Dumbledore.

I don't buy the Priori Incantum scenario however. It's repeated, unoriginal and discounts Harry's 'power of love' as the ultimate weapon which will vanquish Voldemort.

I've always thought (since my first reading of PS) that Harry is making a mistake about Snape and that Snape is on the good side even if he is not a good person. He's arrogant, prejudiced, rude, unfair, untrusting, and more... but despite all his character flaws, he's done some REALLY good things: Watch over Harry and tried to save him, protect Hogwarts, remained on DD's side and taught Harry Occlumency to the best of his ability (that's what I remeber now... there may be more). If we add to that that DD trusted him completely, I believe Snape firmly on the good side. The sad bit is that after killing DD, Snape will probably have to sacrifice himself for the Order (and by extension Harry) for anyone to believe he is on the good side.

The sad bit is that after killing DD, Snape will probably have to sacrifice himself for the Order (and by extension Harry) for anyone to believe he is on the good side.

I don't think Snape cares what other people think or whether anyone believes he's on the good side or not. That, I think, is his greatest strength to the Order (can you imagine any of the other Order members following one of DD's orders if it will lead to them being universally hated and condemned by their own side?).

We've seen that as early in the series as PS/SS, where Quirrell tells Harry that Snape insisted on refereeing the Quidditch match immediately after Quirrell's attempt on Harry's life to try to protect Harry, despite the fact that the staff then all thought he was only doing it to cheat.

I feel that that incident foreshadows the killing of DD - it's a hint to us that when Snape most seems to be doing bad and is most widely hated by the good side, that's probably when he's most doing good. Another reason why I'm 100% for Snape on the good side.

Plus Snape lies numerous times to Bellatrix in his "explanation" at Spinner's End of why he hasn't shown his pro-Voldemort hand previously.

I agree Melaszka... but what I meant with it being 'sad' is that Snape most probably will die in DH...

from reading only 6 pages of this discussion, i've had an interesting observation... most people actually think snape is good! (or at least, most of the people posting regularly) even those who think he's bad only (mainly) think so because he killed DD. which is interesting because it definitely goes against all the opinions of all the characters in the book...

i think that snape killing DD is not a good basis on which to judge Snape, simply because we know for a fact that JKR put that bit in there specifically to make us go nuts about "double-double-triple-" agent theories (see interview with melissa, emerson). so judging by previous actions (which has already been picked clean by other posters), we can say that Snape, while being a greasy-haired git, is on the "good" side.

one thing that absolutely puzzles me though... well, two actually. there's one bit in the interview with melissa and emerson where JKR says that snape is more "culpable" than LV, because LV has never known love. it seems to imply that snape is actually guilty of something, but the arguments (i almost spelled aguamenti) here seem to absolve snape of all wrong-doing, aside from being terribly mean to Harry.

i also don't understand why he was so mean to Tonks. "I think it (tonk's new patronus) looks weak" offended me quite abit, 'cos i like tonks.

one thing that absolutely puzzles me though... well, two actually. there's one bit in the interview with melissa and emerson where JKR says that snape is more "culpable" than LV, because LV has never known love. it seems to imply that snape is actually guilty of something, but the arguments (i almost spelled aguamenti) here seem to absolve snape of all wrong-doing, aside from being terribly mean to Harry.

In a way amazing really that indeed, on this forum, it seems that there are more people who think Snape is good then the various alternatives. Especially since I feel that JKR does not give much hope to the “Snape is good people”. I posted this on some other thread as well but if I read how JKR handled the whole is Snape evil issue it is similar to how she handled the shipping wars. She refused to give a straight answer because she had fun with the theories, but the things she did say pointed at R/Hr instead of H/Hr. And indeed, that is just how it played out. And JKR, in various interviews, does not give a positive impression of Snape. JKR warns the readers about Snape, yet all those warnings are dismissed as if it is nothing, even though JKR tells she does not seek to mislead us in interviews. If she doesn’t want to say something she just doesn’t tell.

The remark that Snape is more culpable then Voldemort because Snape has been loved is a rather straight answer. Why would Snape be culpable at all if all he did was following Dumbledore’s orders, if he is acting for the greater good? This remark was made at the very end of the mugglenet interview, after the release of the HBP.

What is Snape’s role in the series? Is he the one trick pony, a character who is the great hero who gave it all for his fight against Voldemort? A character deliberately wrongly presented by JKR, so that he is really “nice” beyond the surface and all will be revealed in the last book?
Or is he to show us that one can be nasty and still be the hero for fighting against what is wrong, but who still is willing to do everything to obey his real master, Dumbledore?
Or is he here to show us what can happens with people who cannot accept everything Dumbledore stands for, who stand against concepts like humbleness, forgiveness,. Who are totally clueless to the power of love, even when these qualities are evident in his own background. And lacking those qualities, closing himself for the “love” message Dumbledore sends, falls into the hands of those who twist those concepts for personal gain?

The culpable message JKR sends points to the final option…

What is Snape’s role in the series? …
This is a good question. I think Snape shows us more than any other character the importance of choosing what is right over what is easy. He is the one character that we see on both sides. He has to constantly walk the line between good and bad. Dumbledore tries to always choose what is right. Voldemort chooses what is wrong. This series of books is about choices and what we do with them and more importantly, how it is our choices that make us who we are. Snape is the character who shows us this struggle.

I don't think Snape cares what other people think or whether anyone believes he's on the good side or not. That, I think, is his greatest strength to the Order (can you imagine any of the other Order members following one of DD's orders if it will lead to them being universally hated and condemned by their own side?).

I think he does care, though. Both at the end of HBP, and in PS/SS. He just goes ahead and does what needs doing anyway.

In a way amazing really that indeed, on this forum, it seems that there are more people who think Snape is good then the various alternatives. Especially since I feel that JKR does not give much hope to the “Snape is good people”.

She maintains his ambiguity in her interviews and website. He and Draco (assuming Draco actually is one, we have not seen the Mark) are the only Death Eaters she wishes a Happy Birthday.

The remark that Snape is more culpable then Voldemort because Snape has been loved is a rather straight answer. Why would Snape be culpable at all if all he did was following Dumbledore’s orders, if he is acting for the greater good? This remark was made at the very end of the mugglenet interview, after the release of the HBP.
Snape would be culpable because he freely and willingly chose to become a Death Eater, and did whatever evil things he did while a Death Eater, including the reporting of the prophecy.

Snape's role in the series seems to me related to the power of choice, which seems to be one of the themes of the series. Assuming he is (now) good, he is the one illustration that, even if you choose disastrously, you can choose again.

In a way amazing really that indeed, on this forum, it seems that there are more people who think Snape is good then the various alternatives. Especially since I feel that JKR does not give much hope to the “Snape is good people”.

You make some very good points. Yours is one of the very few posts I have ever read which has made me question my position on Snape even momentarily.

However, I've always been surprised at how many people on CoS think Snape is bad, as I don't think I have ever met a single adult Potter reader offline who didn't think he was good.

I posted this on some other thread as well but if I read how JKR handled the whole is Snape evil issue it is similar to how she handled the shipping wars. She refused to give a straight answer because she had fun with the theories, but the things she did say pointed at R/Hr instead of H/Hr. And indeed, that is just how it played out. And JKR, in various interviews, does not give a positive impression of Snape. JKR warns the readers about Snape, yet all those warnings are dismissed as if it is nothing, even though JKR tells she does not seek to mislead us in interviews. If she doesn’t want to say something she just doesn’t tell.

This really made me think. You could be right. However, I think there is a great deal of difference between the Who-is-Hermione-going-to-end-up-with? question and the Is-Snape-Good? question.

For a start, I don't feel there is any attempt in the books themselves to suggest that Hermione and Harry are future romantic partners (although I think there is a little in the films). From very early on in the series I just assumed that Ron/Hermione was the way it was going and I never imagined Harry had any romantic interest in Hermione. There isn't the same level of sustained, conscious ambiguity that surrounds the Snape question.

Which side Snape is on has been a central plot issue of all the books in a way that Hermione's romantic interests haven't been (except possibly in GoF) and JKR has continually tried to manipulate the readers' perception of Snape's loyalties in the books, using the usual tactics of Harry's unreliable narrative viewpoint and ambiguous language. I therefore think that anything she says on the matter which stops short of outright condemnation of Snape can't be taken as definite confirmation that he's bad. Whether she says she deliberately misleads readers in interviews or not, the fact is that she is highly unlikely to say anything that will strongly resolve a contentious central plot issue before the end of the series. I therefore think that in interviews she will do her best to maintain the impression she wanted us to be left with at the end of HBP - that Snape is a villain. But I still think that that is just an impression. Everything about the language she used in the book (e.g. the glaring ambiguity of "Severus please") suggests to me that Snape's loyalties are an unresolved issue that she wants us to actively keep guessing about.

I think a more pertinent comparison is with the question of whether or not Harry is going to die in Book 7. Contrary to what she says about not misleading readers, I perceive in her interview comments on that question a real attempt to limit damage caused by leaks in the press suggesting he will die.

The remark that Snape is more culpable then Voldemort because Snape has been loved is a rather straight answer

But we don't know what he's culpable of. I'm not one of those readers who thinks Snape is lovely and cuddly and misunderstood and that everything he's ever done, from joining the DE to betraying the prophecy to Voldemort, is part of some deeper plot with Dumbledore. I think he's done some terrible things in his past for which he should be held culpable. That doesn't mean he is totally evil or that he is necessarily still on Voldemort's side.

As Sirius says, the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters. For me, what makes HP the best fantasy books I have evr read is that they are the only fantasy novels I know of which deal with real, culpable human beings, who make mistakes and can't easily be slotted into "good" and "evil" categories, instead of cartoon characters.

Some Snape fans can't accept that Snape has some genuinely unpleasant qualities. That is what I believe JKR is warning us about, in her comments on culpability. I suspect that she is proud of having created a "grey" character and dislikes him being squeezed into a squeaky clean mould by overenthusiastic fans.

Or is he here to show us what can happens with people who cannot accept everything Dumbledore stands for, who stand against concepts like humbleness, forgiveness,. Who are totally clueless to the power of love, even when these qualities are evident in his own background. And lacking those qualities, closing himself for the “love” message Dumbledore sends, falls into the hands of those who twist those concepts for personal gain?

Snape is not the only character conspicuously lacking in humility or forgiveness. Harry finds it impossible to forgive Snape for Sirius's death. Sirius hates Snape as much as Snape hates him and is scarcely the most humble character in the world, either. I think the qualities which Dumbledore stands for are ones to which we should all aspire, but which no mortal can ever hope to master completely.

Is it possible (and do onot I believe this but just for conversation sake) that killing Dumbledore was not planned, and Snape did it to once again save himself, but in the long run he will prove Dumbledore right and do something noble and selfless in the end??? When the time comes to chose what is easy and what is right, (Let Harry die, or save him) he will do what is right???

Like I said already, way too much evidence suggests that Dumbledore was dying already and it was planned that Snape kill him, but this thought just popped into my mind so I thought I would throw it out there...

Well Im off to have three teeth pulled see you all later

well, just one point on the "it was planned for Snape to kill Dumbledore" theory: in the mugglenet/TLC interview right after the book came out, Jo pretty much confirmed it was not right. I dont have the exact quote at the moment, but when Emerson/Melisa (dont remember which one) said something about it, Jo said something like: "I wont shoot that one down, only becasue its to fun to watch you guys come out with theorys. I only shoot down the rumors that really will not take you anywhere, and which are just plain damaging." (again, not the exact quote, but pretty much what she said). To me, this sounds like she´s saying its not true, but Im not gonna shoot it down just because I want to watch you guys come out with theorys. I dont know, I could be wrong, but that´s what it looks like to me.

PadfootBlack16, here is the excerpt of thge interview you probably have in mind (the one with Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron the day after the HBP release).


MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

ES: Yes!

MA: Yes!

ES: Like certain shippers we know!

[All laugh]

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.


The bottom line is that she states the answer to the question 'Is Snape Evil?' is a major plot spoiler for DH. SHe could hardly make it any clearer that she does not want us to know, one way or the other, about Snape. The question of his loyalties is one she has deliberately raised and kept alive as one of the 'mysteries' of the series.

And yes, there are 10,000 different theories about Snape. Everything from, he wants to get rid of Voldemort and Dumbledore to be the new Dark Lord, to he was always totally on the good side and joined the DEs under false pretences, to help the Order. I'm sure this is great fun for her.

It is not an either/or choice. Even if he is 'good' (as Melaszka eloquently pointed out in her post), there are mutually contradictory theories about how, why, and when. He loved Lily. Voldemort turned his mother into a dog. Voldemort made him kill his wife and children. He was always good. Draco is really his son. And so on...

Is it possible (and do onot I believe this but just for conversation sake) that killing Dumbledore was not planned, and Snape did it to once again save himself, but in the long run he will prove Dumbledore right and do something noble and selfless in the end??? When the time comes to chose what is easy and what is right, (Let Harry die, or save him) he will do what is right???


Ouch, dental work... :scared: Good luck with that!

Your idea would certainly explain Snape's reaction to being called a coward. I don't believe it, though, because I think that what Snape did is what Dumbledore would have wanted, based on the situation he was in and the likely outcome if Snape had instead tried to rescue Dumbledore.

Also, if Snape really was a true Death Eater at some point in his career, this seems like yet another flip-flop. It makes Snape's story even more complicated.

You make some very good points. Yours is one of the very few posts I have ever read which has made me question my position on Snape even momentarily.Same for me. Good post staniw. I am not a 100% fierce believer in "Snape is on the good side" anyway, but I have normally no problem to stand by that point on this forum Now, I was wavering in my resolution as well, when I read your point.
Which side Snape is on has been a central plot issue of all the books in a way that Hermione's romantic interests haven't been (except possibly in GoF) and JKR has continually tried to manipulate the readers' perception of Snape's loyalties in the books, using the usual tactics of Harry's unreliable narrative viewpoint and ambiguous language. I therefore think that anything she says on the matter which stops short of outright condemnation of Snape can't be taken as definite confirmation that he's bad. Whether she says she deliberately misleads readers in interviews or not, the fact is that she is highly unlikely to say anything that will strongly resolve a contentious central plot issue before the end of the series. Bold mine. I´m back and forth on this point actually. It is one of the reasons I tend to believe in the "Snape is good" theory that I can´t imagine JKR creates such an ambiguous character, who is cast doubt upon the whole time, only to resolve these doubts in the penultimate book of the series already.
Then someone on this thread (can´t remember who) suggested that Snape is not the main villain of the series after all and therefore his true colours can very well be revealed before the end. But, the main villain of the series is not that much of a secret anyway, isn´t it? The main villain is LV and he has been introduced as such in the very first chapter. Therefore, it would make sense to have another character whose true allegience is somewhat doubtful throughout the whole series, until the end. And the quote from the TLC/Mugglenet interview zgirnius has presented does corroborate that.

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

In other words: Snape´s true motives and allegience will be revealed in DH. Despite what happened at the end of HBP, the verdict is still open. That does not completely exclude the possibility of Snape being on the evil side or on his own side for that matter.

In a way amazing really that indeed, on this forum, it seems that there are more people who think Snape is good then the various alternatives. Especially since I feel that JKR does not give much hope to the “Snape is good people”. I posted this on some other thread as well but if I read how JKR handled the whole is Snape evil issue it is similar to how she handled the shipping wars. She refused to give a straight answer because she had fun with the theories, but the things she did say pointed at R/Hr instead of H/Hr. And indeed, that is just how it played out. And JKR, in various interviews, does not give a positive impression of Snape. JKR warns the readers about Snape, yet all those warnings are dismissed as if it is nothing, even though JKR tells she does not seek to mislead us in interviews. If she doesn’t want to say something she just doesn’t tell.

The remark that Snape is more culpable then Voldemort because Snape has been loved is a rather straight answer. Why would Snape be culpable at all if all he did was following Dumbledore’s orders, if he is acting for the greater good? This remark was made at the very end of the mugglenet interview, after the release of the HBP.

What is Snape’s role in the series? Is he the one trick pony, a character who is the great hero who gave it all for his fight against Voldemort? A character deliberately wrongly presented by JKR, so that he is really “nice” beyond the surface and all will be revealed in the last book?
Or is he to show us that one can be nasty and still be the hero for fighting against what is wrong, but who still is willing to do everything to obey his real master, Dumbledore?
Or is he here to show us what can happens with people who cannot accept everything Dumbledore stands for, who stand against concepts like humbleness, forgiveness,. Who are totally clueless to the power of love, even when these qualities are evident in his own background. And lacking those qualities, closing himself for the “love” message Dumbledore sends, falls into the hands of those who twist those concepts for personal gain?

The culpable message JKR sends points to the final option…

I agree with you,and what a fine post!

JKR, not matter how much we may like Snape's character, has only presented the fact that Snape at this point has gone to the dark side, and that though he seems to be a little vulnerable, he's decided. She's def. pointed to the fact that Snape, in killing one of the most influential and respectable of characters in the book, should now recieve our distrust. He's interesting, and who knows what he'll pull, but I'm not trusting him until I see a clear cut reason, i.e. he explains himself.

I'm a Fan of the Snape is Good Theory and now I'm going to tell you why:

Snapes always been mean to Harry and as a result Harry hates Snape. That's obvious!
So why is Snape so rough to Harry? Just because James and his friends were making jokes about him?
In PoA Dumbleodore explained to Harry that when a wizard rescues another wizard there is a magical band between them. So as far as we know, James rescued Snape once. So there was(?) a bond between them.
Snape wasn't able to give a return to James during his lifetime so I do not believe that the bond is dimished. He must help Harry.
Now you may ask WHY is Snape nevertheless really spiteful to Harry?

So now the real Theory :lol:

Dumbledore made up a plan. When Snape acts as if he hates Harry, Harry is going to hate Snape. An with whom does Harry have a special connection to? Right Lord Voldemord. So when Voldemord "feels" that Harry hates Snape through and through he may trusts Snape. Accordingly Snape can "play" to be a Death Eater but in reallity he is a spion and helping Dumbleodere.
To make the Plan perfect, Dumbledore WANTED Snape to kill him because than Harry won't have any nice feelings towards Snape, just pure hatred. In addition the Unbreakable Vow was fullfilled and even Bellatrix will believe that Snape is a trustfully person.
In my opinion this is very significant in the end because Snape will help Harry. Then the magic "bond" between him and "James" will be broken.


So that's my theory. I hope my english is not too bad. Maybe I've chosen the false words and expressions but I hope the main ideas are clear :)

No, your English is excellent, I'm lucky enough to master my own, nevertheless master another!

and you have good points, but I def. won't believe anything until I see it-er-read it.

Le Blockhaus, you make a very valid point. Assuming that Snape is really on the good side, the he cannot afford for Voldemort to suspect, in any form or manner that he likes or supports Harry especially with Voldemort being the 'most powerful Legillimens that has ever lived.'

But I don't think that's the only reason. I don't think Snape actually likes Harry (because of his resemblance to James). I think he wanted to punish Harry for everything that James ever did to him and if in the process, he ensured his duplicity will remain hidden from Voldemort, well... all the better for him ;)

:hmm: I agree that Snape must under no circumstances know that Snape is good, I think he'll be right on the Harry front seeing as I don't think he likes him in the first place.

The problem with your theory is that Snape had singled Harry out right from the beginning, seeing him as a miniture James. I hardly think that was a ruse at all.

Seeing Snape's rage at Harry in OOTP after finding him watching James publicly humiliate him, he seemed to have confirmed his theory from day one that Harry was definately James' son. Any time Snape shows any true feeling at all, it is always in absolute rage targeted at Harry for being James' son. :shrug:

But I do agree with everything else. :)

:hmm: I agree that Snape must under no circumstances know that Snape is good, I think he'll be right on the Harry front seeing as I don't think he likes him in the first place.

The problem with your theory is that Snape had singled Harry out right from the beginning, seeing him as a miniture James. I hardly think that was a ruse at all.

Seeing Snape's rage at Harry in OOTP after finding him watching James publicly humiliate him, he seemed to have confirmed his theory from day one that Harry was definately James' son. Any time Snape shows any true feeling at all, it is always in absolute rage targeted at Harry for being James' son. :shrug:

But I do agree with everything else. :)I agree. I think Snape´s rage is genuine. And his dislike of Harry as well. And, Snape is kind of nasty to most students. I think that´s just his special "charme" so to speak. But Le Blockhaus has made an interesting point. Snape would definately make sure LV knows he (Snape) dislikes Harry and would under no circumstances help him.

I believe that Snape is good. But he will have a very hard time convincing the Order of his innocence, especially since he ran after HBP

I believe that Snape is good. But he will have a very hard time convincing the Order of his innocence, especially since he ran after HBP

That would depend on
(a) where he ran
(b) with whom he ran
(c) what he does subsequently.

If he destroys a couple of horcruxes, for example, Harry will have to accept that they're on the same side (Dumbledore's insisting that Snape, not Madam Pomfret, treat his horcrux destruction injuries strongly suggests that Snape is the only person, other than Harry, Hermione and Ron, who knows about the horcrux quest. That in itself suggests to me that Snape will be key to the destruction of the remaining ones).

And, of course, if he lays down his life to help the Order/save Harry, that will be proof enough.

I also have my doubts about the big blond Death Eater, who appears to flee Hogwarts with Snape and Draco at the end of HBP. For several reasons, which I have articulated at length on the Big Blond Death Eater thread, I suspect he may be an Order spy, and thus may be an eventual link between snape and the Order.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think that Snape is good and he will help Harry at the very end, because of the life-debt and some will say because he loved Lily. But I do see his hatred for both James and Harry as very real, though, for him it has it's great advantages, it protects him from LV finding out Snape is loyal to Dumbledore.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think that Snape is good and he will help Harry at the very end, because of the life-debt and some will say because he loved Lily. But I do see his hatred for both James and Harry as very real, though, for him it has it's great advantages, it protects him from LV finding out Snape is loyal to Dumbledore.


I agree. I think Snape will play an important (though short) role in DH, and that he is good (probably), but there can be no doubt that his hatred of Harry, James and Sirius is 100% genuine.

I agree. I think Snape will play an important (though short) role in DH, and that he is good (probably), but there can be no doubt that his hatred of Harry, James and Sirius is 100% genuine.

Genuine, yes. But how strong/meaningful?

This hatred has not prevented Snape from shaking hands with Sirius at Dumbledore's request, from trying to save Harry's life, or from (apparently) making the life-altering decision to 'return' to the good side when he realized that he had endangered James' life.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think that Snape is good and he will help Harry at the very end, because of the life-debt and some will say because he loved Lily. But I do see his hatred for both James and Harry as very real, though, for him it has it's great advantages, it protects him from LV finding out Snape is loyal to Dumbledore.One wonders how this discussion played out:
What were you doing when you blocked my path to the stone, why didn’t you try to find me, why didn’t you help my loyal deatheater when you’ve noticed the mark getting stronger, why is Harry Potter still alive?
I was busy being nasty to Harry, my lord.
Oh, that’s okay then.

I don’t see Voldemort being troubled at all with the manner Snape treated Harry. Bella questions Snape at spinner’s end and Snape says that the same questions were asked by Voldemort himself, to gauge his loyalty. And Snape gave the same answers. How he treated Harry was never mentioned as a topic, his nasty treatment of Harry was not given by Snape as proof of loyalty. The opposite really: why is Harry still alive is the question and the answer is that he couldn’t kill him without losing Dumbledore’s trust. Snape might have well treated Harry as the king of Hogwarts and this same defence would still stand: he had to be on Dumbledore’s good side.

We have seen how Voldemort expects his spy to behave around Harry with Croody: get on his good side, gain his trust. This is in line with the advice given by Lucius to Draco: it is not wise to appear to be less then fond of Harry Potter.

It’s all an act as Snape told Draco, but you have to play your part well. In Harry’s case Snape played his part poor. He isn’t genuinely fond of Harry.

Lucius understands how this works, Snape should understand as well. I can’t imagine that Voldemort would not understand as well. Snape only has to tell Voldemort that Dumbledore was very fond of Harry and that it was in his best interest to be fond of Harry as well.

Voldemort wonders if Snape’s true loyalty was to Dumbledore or to himself. Snape has to explain why he still is loyal to Voldemort even though he is “nice” to Dumbledore. His treatment of Harry doesn’t play a part with Voldemort, because if it had Snape would have mentioned it in spinner’s end. The real question is how Snape managed to stay on Dumbledore’s good side, and that’s a question Snape has to answer. He uses Harry in his answers: but only to explain why he was nice enough not to kill him, not why he was nasty at all.

If his treatment of Harry serves as proof of loyalty for Voldemort why is that there no hint of this in the books? Why does even the narrator say that Harry also happened to be Snape's least favourite student (COS) and Harry's loathing of Snape was matched only by Snape's hatred of him, (POA)? This all is just stated by the narrator. Snape doesn’t play an act, it is all genuine.

I have no doubts that he (as much as I dislike him) is good. I actually feel sorry for him especially now. I don't think he wanted at all to kill him but I think DD knew and planned for him to be the one to kill him. imo Dumbledore knew this would be Snapes last year teaching at Hogwarts he said it himself when he told Harry that he knew LV cursed the teaching position for dada stating that no one who took the job stayed for more than a year and knowing this he gave Snape the position anyway? hmmmm

I don't doubt that Snape is on the "good side". I don't think anyone here truly believes he could have outwitted Dumbledore into believing him to be loyal when he wasn't. But on the other hand, I don't think it's at all necessary for someone to be a "good" person to be on the "good side".

Well I've seen many good points and good theories about Snape. I must admit I've waffled back and forth, myself, on whether Snape will ultimately turn out to be "good" or "evil". I've just finished re-reading GoF and discovered some interesting points toward the end of the book which might give us some clues. (Caution: this post will probably be quite long)

This is from pg 565 of Goblet of Fire (Canadian paperback) when Voldemort calls his DE's to him and is surveying the largest gap in the circle, 6 DE's missing.

"'And here we have six missing Death Eaters ... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me for ever ... he will be killed, of course ... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service.'
The Death Eaters stirred; Harry saw their eyes dart sideways at each other through their masks.
'He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived tonight ...'"

Now we know from the last statement that the "faithful servant" who brought Harry to Voldemort was, of course, Barty Crouch Jr. That leaves Snape and Karkaroff as the one who has left him forever and the coward. But who is who? Well I think we get our answer on pg 586 from Moody.

"'Karkaroff?' said Moody with an odd laugh. 'Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark burn upon his arm. He betrayed too many faithful supporters of the Dark Lord to wish to meet them ...'"

Now it seems to me that Karkaroff running away when the Dark Mark burned on his arm clearly states that he is the coward, meaning Snape is the DE who has left Voldemort forever.

You might argue that Voldemort only thinks that Snape has left him, meanwhile earning Dumbledore's trust so he can later return to the Dark Lord as a spy... but wait!! I have one last piece of proof that Snape is good! It has to do with Moody's (Crouch Jr's) foe glass in his office. As we all know, the Foe-Glass becomes clear and shows the user the "foe" or enemy who is most threatening them or closing in on them, right? Well after Harry gets back to Hogwarts from the graveyard and is taken up to Moody's office, Moody (Crouch Jr) reveals the truth and is about to kill Harry when Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape burst in. From pg 589:

"'Stupefy!' There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great splintering and crashing, the door of Moody's office was blasted apart -
Moody was thrown backwards onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass."

Now if Snape were "bad" or evil, this would have been an ideal opportunity for us to be given a clue. Harry would only have seen DD and McGonagall in the Foe-Glass as Crouch's foes, not Snape. In my opinion, the Foe-Glass would only show someone's "true" enemies. If Snape's true allegiance was with Voldemort (and therefore aligned with Crouch) I don't think he would have appeared in the Foe-Glass.

In all honesty, I've never been a fan of Snape. I admit I dislike him for the way he treats Harry and I do think he is very self-serving. However, based on everything I've explained above, I must reluctantly admit I think Snape will ultimately turn out to oppose Voldemort.

PS: Yes, I do think that Dumbledore and Snape discussed the situation in Half-Blood with Draco and the Unbreakable Vow. I'm certain they agreed that if it came down to it, Snape would have to kill DD in order to fulfill the vow and keep the Dark Lord's trust.

I Hope Snape Dies, He Deserves It, And No I Will Not Cry For Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is from pg 565 of Goblet of Fire (Canadian paperback) when Voldemort calls his DE's to him and is surveying the largest gap in the circle, 6 DE's missing.

"'And here we have six missing Death Eaters ... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me for ever ... he will be killed, of course ... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service.'
The Death Eaters stirred; Harry saw their eyes dart sideways at each other through their masks.
'He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived tonight ...'"

Now we know from the last statement that the "faithful servant" who brought Harry to Voldemort was, of course, Barty Crouch Jr. That leaves Snape and Karkaroff as the one who has left him forever and the coward. But who is who? Well I think we get our answer on pg 586 from Moody.

"'Karkaroff?' said Moody with an odd laugh. 'Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the Dark Mark burn upon his arm. He betrayed too many faithful supporters of the Dark Lord to wish to meet them ...'"

Now it seems to me that Karkaroff running away when the Dark Mark burned on his arm clearly states that he is the coward, meaning Snape is the DE who has left Voldemort forever.Yes, this has been discussed already, I don´t remember on which thread. The "problem" is, Voldemort said the one who had left him forever would be killed, and Karkaroff has been killed. Assumed LV has sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore, he would get suspicious that Snape has not turned up on the graveyard (he does question him about his delay later), so he could have - at that moment in time - have labelled Snape as the one who was too cowardly to return. Note as well that Snape does react very upset when Harry calls him a "coward" at the end of HBP. I don´t want to say your argument is wrong, I just wanted to point out that, IMO, it is not 100% clear to whom which statement refers.

You might argue that Voldemort only thinks that Snape has left him, meanwhile earning Dumbledore's trust so he can later return to the Dark Lord as a spy... but wait!! I have one last piece of proof that Snape is good! It has to do with Moody's (Crouch Jr's) foe glass in his office. As we all know, the Foe-Glass becomes clear and shows the user the "foe" or enemy who is most threatening them or closing in on them, right? Well after Harry gets back to Hogwarts from the graveyard and is taken up to Moody's office, Moody (Crouch Jr) reveals the truth and is about to kill Harry when Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape burst in. From pg 589:

"'Stupefy!' There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great splintering and crashing, the door of Moody's office was blasted apart -
Moody was thrown backwards onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass."
Now if Snape were "bad" or evil, this would have been an ideal opportunity for us to be given a clue. Harry would only have seen DD and McGonagall in the Foe-Glass as Crouch's foes, not Snape. In my opinion, the Foe-Glass would only show someone's "true" enemies. If Snape's true allegiance was with Voldemort (and therefore aligned with Crouch) I don't think he would have appeared in the Foe-Glass.
Not to be misunderstood, I do tend to the "Snape is on the good side" theory. I just would like to play devil´s advocate here. Is it possible that Snape is on Voldemort´s side but still considered a foe by Crouch Jr.? It seems likely not all DEs are friendly with each other. Plus, in this situation, evil or good, Snape helped to catch Crouch Jr. and as such was a foe in this situation. Would JKR give the answer to the mystery Snape (Snape=good because he was shown in the foe glass) away so early? :)

Yes, this has been discussed already, I don´t remember on which thread. The "problem" is, Voldemort said the one who had left him forever would be killed, and Karkaroff has been killed. Assumed LV has sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore, he would get suspicious that Snape has not turned up on the graveyard (he does question him about his delay later), so he could have - at that moment in time - have labelled Snape as the one who was too cowardly to return. Note as well that Snape does react very upset when Harry calls him a "coward" at the end of HBP. I don´t want to say your argument is wrong, I just wanted to point out that, IMO, it is not 100% clear to whom which statement refers.

It is also entirely possible that LV believed Snape had left him forever, and so it is he LV is referring to.

Not to be misunderstood, I do tend to the "Snape is on the good side" theory. I just would like to play devil´s advocate here. Is it possible that Snape is on Voldemort´s side but still considered a foe by Crouch Jr.? It seems likely not all DEs are friendly with each other. Plus, in this situation, evil or good, Snape helped to catch Crouch Jr. and as such was a foe in this situation. Would JKR give the answer to the mystery Snape (Snape=good because he was shown in the foe glass) away so early? :)

I think the Foe-Glass works on the "true enemy" concept rather than "perceived enemy", which would make it much more useful (for uncovering traitors, say).

I think Snape is evil, and will not come back to the good side.

Yes, this has been discussed already, I don´t remember on which thread. The "problem" is, Voldemort said the one who had left him forever would be killed,
This was answered in the Spinner's End chapter. Voldemort did believe that Snape had left him forever, but Snape convinced him otherwise when he returned, on Dumbledore's instructions, a few hours later. Karkaroff was the one "too cowardly to return" and he was caught and killed during HBP.

Indeed, Snape uses identical language to characterize Voldemort's view of him at the end of GoF:


The Dark Lord's initial displeasure at my lateness vanished entirely, I assure you, when I explined that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore thought I was his man. Yes, the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong."

I don't think Jo wants us to know whether Snape is good or evil. She wants everyone to guess. She probably finds it funny to read the threads. I would find it funny if I was her...
Either way, some people are going to be proven wrong. I think that Snape is either good or evil and that he won't change his mind or be half-heartedly on one side, otherwise Snape wouldn't have taken all the risks he has taken. Personally, I think that he is good. I think the giveaway is the twitch or movement in his hand when he was making the unbreakable vow. He obviously had doubts about it. However, I think it could be either and that we won't know until the book comes out. That is truely the sign of a clever auhtor.

I dont think that he is bad. But if he should be bad then he wont come back, 'cause I think Harry will kill'em.:relax:

I think the Foe-Glass works on the "true enemy" concept rather than "perceived enemy", which would make it much more useful (for uncovering traitors, say).I meant that as in "true personal enemy", but you are certainly correct.

This was answered in the Spinner's End chapter. Voldemort did believe that Snape had left him forever, but Snape convinced him otherwise when he returned, on Dumbledore's instructions, a few hours later. Karkaroff was the one "too cowardly to return" and he was caught and killed during HBP.Ah, forgetful me. Yes, I know what Snape told the women in Spinner´s End, but some part of me seems to always gloss over his "the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever" part when I start to think about the graveyard passage in GoF. Just forget that point of mine. :argh:

I don't think it's just a case of him being good or bad. Snape looks out for himself. Whether or not hie actions are good or bad are a byproduct of what suits him best.

Yeah Snape is bad, and he will never come back to the good side.

Not sure if this is answered in the books, but here is my question:
If Snape knew Quirrell was trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone, he would have told Dumbledore immediately, and Dumbledore surely would have got rid of Quirrell immediately, but he didn't interact with Quirrell in the least, until the very last second before Harry went unconcious, after "Quirrelmort" was defeated. Why didn't Dumbledore know Quirrel was after the stone?

I believe Snape is evil without a shadow of a doubt, and if it turns out that I am wrong, sue me.

Not sure if this is answered in the books, but here is my question:
If Snape knew Quirrell was trying to steal the Philosopher's Stone, he would have told Dumbledore immediately, and Dumbledore surely would have got rid of Quirrell immediately, but he didn't interact with Quirrell in the least, until the very last second before Harry went unconcious, after "Quirrelmort" was defeated. Why didn't Dumbledore know Quirrel was after the stone?

I believe that there's more than one factor. Firstly, there's the fact that I don't think Snape could really prove Quirrell was really after the Stone - I think he suspected it but didn't know for sure. He would know, in that case, that Dumbledore would doubt it if there was no proof, since he has the 'innocent until proven guilty' policy. Also, I think a lot of people would probably suspect that Snape just wanted Quirrell's job if out of nowhere he came up with such dangerous story. Perhaps he did tell Dumbledore and that is, indeed, what happened, but Dumbledore still had Quirrell closely watched and thus he reacted really quickly when he got Hermione's owl in PS asking for help.

As to whether Snape is good or bad well, he's a pretty complex character, isn't he? It's quite hard to tell, really. My opinion is, however, that he mainly holds fascination towards the dark side. Even so, he's a character that goes with the flow: he follows the side that will benefit him the most, or that he believes will benefit the most. He is a smart man, so he doesn't feel guilty when betraying the other side he was formerly part of...after all, he found a way so that both sides accepted him when he got back, didn't he?

I believe that there's more than one factor. Firstly, there's the fact that I don't think Snape could really prove Quirrell was really after the Stone - I think he suspected it but didn't know for sure. He would know, in that case, that Dumbledore would doubt it if there was no proof, since he has the 'innocent until proven guilty' policy.

Exactly. We see how Dumbledore reacts when Snape shares his suspicions of Lupin in PoA and when Harry shares his suspicions of Snape in virtually every book. He's polite, but makes it clear that he's one step ahead of them and isn't interested in people telling tales.

Even so, he's a character that goes with the flow: he follows the side that will benefit him the most, or that he believes will benefit the most. He is a smart man, so he doesn't feel guilty when betraying the other side he was formerly part of...

That's not how I see him. Guilt at betraying the Potters is exactly what Dumbledore sees most powerfully in him, and I just don't see DD misjudging so completely the character of someone he's known well for about 30 years, ever since that character was a child. I can see DD making a mistake, but not one which is based on such a fundamental misapprehension of character, as DD is normally such an excellent judge of character (he alone recognised the young Tom Riddle's true nature when he was a pupil at Hogwarts, remember).

I'm firmly in the Snape-is-good camp, but if I'm wrong, I think it's far more likely that Snape betrayed Dumbledore for emotional reasons, not because he's a cold fish who doesn't feel emotions like guilt.

Well..at first I thought he was bad but...then I read some theories about when Dumbledore was pleading with Snape on the tower that night and I think I've changed my mind because I think they are right...I don't think Dumbledore was pleading for his life...he was begging Snape to kill him...I think that is also why he froze Harry to where he couldn't interfere because he knew Harry would attack Snape if he were free to do so. So...I am now convinced that Snape is in fact on the good side.

if he really is truly evil at this point...i dont think he'll come back to the good side.

From pg 589:

"'Stupefy!' There was a blinding flash of red light, and with a great splintering and crashing, the door of Moody's office was blasted apart -
Moody was thrown backwards onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody's face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass."

Now if Snape were "bad" or evil, this would have been an ideal opportunity for us to be given a clue. Harry would only have seen DD and McGonagall in the Foe-Glass as Crouch's foes, not Snape. In my opinion, the Foe-Glass would only show someone's "true" enemies. If Snape's true allegiance was with Voldemort (and therefore aligned with Crouch) I don't think he would have appeared in the Foe-Glass.


good catch btw. i never even saw that. what impressed me about this particular scene is that the two people whom are always with DD in these situations are McGonagall and Snape.

Also, the way Snape took his own initiative in showing Fudge the Dark Mark at the end of GoF speaks to me of someone who is truly trying to help. I think that self-initiated actions are the true mark of a person's loyalty.

But I have a pertinent question? Why was Snape trying to get past Fluffy in PS?:p

Sanguini: DD won't act without proof of Quirell's duplicity. Or rather, he won't act overtly, rather trusting instead to measures already put in place for the protection of the stone. To quote Harry from my leaky memory, "I don't know. It's almost like he though I had the right to face (Voldemort) if I could." Further proof that Dumbledore knew this is when he arrived back and said "Harry's gone to fight him, hasn't he?" (again, paraphrased badly. can anyone tell me where you get word-perfect quotes from?)


One wonders if DD could see the dormant LV in Quirell's eyes, much as he saw it in Harry's eyes during OotP. hmm....

But I have a pertinent question? Why was Snape trying to get past Fluffy in PS?:p

I don't know if Snape was actually trying to get past Fluffy... it's more likely that he was checking the trap door to see if it had been opened or tampered with.

To quote Harry from my leaky memory, "I don't know. It's almost like he though I had the right to face (Voldemort) if I could." Further proof that Dumbledore knew this is when he arrived back and said "Harry's gone to fight him, hasn't he?" (again, paraphrased badly. can anyone tell me where you get word-perfect quotes from?)

Here's the Harry quote you mean (my bolding):

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He's a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."

The other quote, Hermione reporting Dumbledore's words when he got back to Hogwarts, is more vague ('he' could be Quirrell):

"Well, I got back all right," said Hermione. "I brought Ron round -- that took a while -- and we were dashing up to the owlery to contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall -- he already knew -- he just said, 'Harrry's gone after him, hasn't he?' and hurtled off to the third floor."


Both these quotes were obtained from an awesome website: Willow's
Harry Potter Character Guides (http://www.geocities.com/willowsevern/)

It has links to all the quotes by or about a huge list of characters (including Dumbledore)from the first 5 books. (Book 6 is being added...)

I think Snape is on the good side, I don't think he's overly nice, or likes Harry or anything, I just refuse to believe DD could have been so wrong over something so important. In HBP, I don't think DD was begging for his life (SO out of character), I think he was asking Snape to kill him.

All my friends think he's evil but no...I'll stand by him until the end lol! x

What convinced me were the mirrors between Harry and Snape and Dumbledore and Snape that clinched it for me, before picking up those, I believed he was a rotten apple. :lol:

That's not how I see him. Guilt at betraying the Potters is exactly what Dumbledore sees most powerfully in him, and I just don't see DD misjudging so completely the character of someone he's known well for about 30 years, ever since that character was a child. I can see DD making a mistake, but not one which is based on such a fundamental misapprehension of character, as DD is normally such an excellent judge of character (he alone recognised the young Tom Riddle's true nature when he was a pupil at Hogwarts, remember).

Point well made about DD's judge of character. I, too, believe him to be wiser than anyone gives him credit for on the Snape issue.


What convinced me were the mirrors between Harry and Snape and Dumbledore and Snape that clinched it for me, before picking up those, I believed he was a rotten apple. :lol:


Do you mind elaborating on the mirrors between DD and Snape? I think everyone clearly sees the Harry/Snape mirror via the Pensieve, but what do you mean by DD/Snape exactly? I'm not really convinced that there is a great similarity (except for maybe loneliness).

Sorry FredRocksMySocks :blush: Cool name by the way :lol:

The Harry and Snape mirror.

When Harry is ordered and promised to keep this word before hand, to force feed the potion to Dumbledore until it is finished.

Harry feels revulsion and hatred, just before he forcefeeds the potion to Dumbledore.

Snape, we see hatred and repulsion etched on his face.

People say that revulsion and repulsion are two different words, but they both mean disgust. ;)

That's the most convincing mirror to me.

Dumbledore and Snape mirror is more slight and inconspicuous (sp?)

In Spinner's End, Snape gets up and looks out the window, after answering a barrage of Bella's questions to his loyalty. Dumbledore does the same, the description is almost identical, after answering a barrage of Harry's questions regarding Snape's loyalty.

I think it's just too much of a coincidence. JK uses little things like this as hidden clues. ;)

But, I'm curious, what is the pensieve mirror you were refering to?

OH! I understand now what you were getting at. My bad. ;)

I was thinking of mirrors between Snape and Harry along the lines of how the characters are similar. The Pensieve, for example, showed Snape to be the butt of the "popular" kids' jokes, to be the small guy, and to be really alone and separated from other students--just like Harry is/was often picked on, was the butt of everyone's jokes (uh, book 4 & 5 anyone?), and separated from his peers because of his history. In that way, they are mirrored--or similar--because of these traits revealed to us by the Pensieve.
I was thinking more general things. Yours are very specific. And accurate, in my opinion. :)

Thanks for the explaination.

Not a worry, their characters to mirror --Snape and Harry-- but they deal with them in different ways. ;)

Just elaborating a bit more on the Snape and Harry scene mirror :lol:

We see that Snape was ordered to do something that he did not want to do anymore, but Dumbledore insisted that he agreed upon. Alot of posters don't see Dumbledore as a person who would make someone agree to kill him if it proves necessary, but that's what I believe the purpose of that scene was for. To show in a very hidden way that there was a prior agreement between Snape and Dumbledore, just as there was with Harry and Dumbledore. :D

Alot of posters don't see Dumbledore as a person who would make someone agree to kill him if it proves necessary

Dumbledore did make Harry promise to pour that potion down his throat, even though he had no idea what it would do. He told Harry that he didn't think it would kill him, but he may very well have been wrong.

So it's not that unbelievable that he'd order Snape to kill him if it became necessary. Dumbledore has worked too long, and too hard; to protect Harry and give him his shot at beating Voldemort, to let death stop him.

Dumbledore did make Harry promise to pour that potion down his throat, even though he had no idea what it would do. He told Harry that he didn't think it would kill him, but he may very well have been wrong.

So it's not that unbelievable that he'd order Snape to kill him if it became necessary. Dumbledore has worked too long, and too hard; to protect Harry and give him his shot at beating Voldemort, to let death stop him.

I totally agree :tu: I spent 5 months on the DoA thread arguing that point.

The cave I believe was a prelude telling us so. Dumbledore is also not afraid to die and believes in giving people second chances. If Snape was ever going to get the chance to truly prove himself, (the order only believed he was good because of Dumbledore's word, it was starkingly evident in Phoenix Lament), he would have to live first.

Secondly, I don't believe for a second that the greatest wizard on earth could not get himself out of that predictament on the tower. He was flying a broomstick and taking down the enchantments without a wand. The only thing that would therefore make sense to me is that Dumbledore CHOSE to sacrifice his life in order to let Snape live. The ultimate sacrifice.

Dumbledore did make Harry promise to pour that potion down his throat, even though he had no idea what it would do. He told Harry that he didn't think it would kill him, but he may very well have been wrong.

So it's not that unbelievable that he'd order Snape to kill him if it became necessary. Dumbledore has worked too long, and too hard; to protect Harry and give him his shot at beating Voldemort, to let death stop him.

That's a very valid comparison to make. And just as Harry had to swear to obey Dumbledore, no matter what his orders were, Snape may also have been obeying orders against his own inclination - as illustrated by the look of hatred and revulsion on his face while he did it.

Secondly, I don't believe for a second that the greatest wizard on earth could not get himself out of that predictament on the tower. He was flying a broomstick and taking down the enchantments without a wand. The only thing that would therefore make sense to me is that Dumbledore CHOSE to sacrifice his life in order to let Snape live. The ultimate sacrifice.

When Dumbledore, and Harry were on the tower, it was obvious that Dumbledore was expecting Draco; this is why he stunned Harry. But when Draco arrived, he let him disarm him, when he could have easily stunned him. The reason that he did this, is that he knew about the vow that Snape had taken.

Dumbledore knew that if Draco failed at his mission, then Snape would have died; And for Dumbledore, killing Draco wasn't an option. The only way for Snape, and Dumbledore to both survive, would be for Draco to agree to give up his mission. But I think that Dumbledore prepared for the possibility that he would die by making Snape agree to fulfill his part of the vow.

I think that Dumbledore had some plan that Snape was a key part of. So to Dumbledore it was more important that Snape survive than himself.

When Dumbledore, and Harry were on the tower, it was obvious that Dumbledore was expecting Draco; this is why he stunned Harry. But when Draco arrived, he let him disarm him, when he could have easily stunned him. The reason that he did this, is that he knew about the vow that Snape had taken.

Dumbledore knew that if Draco failed at his mission, then Snape would have died; And for Dumbledore, killing Draco wasn't an option. The only way for Snape, and Dumbledore to both survive, would be for Draco to agree to give up his mission. But I think that Dumbledore prepared for the possibility that he would die by making Snape agree to fulfill his part of the vow.

I think that Dumbledore had some plan that Snape was a key part of. So to Dumbledore it was more important that Snape survive than himself.

Exactly :tu: Personally, I think it has to do with Snape now being "completely trusted" (well, you know what I mean), DE, still having the life-debt owed to James hanging over his head, dark arts specialist, etc ... Snape is definately a key somewhere in there.

I believe Snape is good, for only one good reason; Dumbledore said to trust in him.

Think about it- Dumbledore was (respectivaly)the only wizard Voldermort feared. I think he would know if Severus was bad or not.
Take the faith. Everytime Dumbledore met with Harry about Snape's loyalty, Dumbledore just said "I trust Prof. Snape with my life." (in context, but not in literal terms.) So, would Dumbledore have given his life for Snape's spying ? Yes! Could the killing be for proof to Vold. that Snape was loyal? Quite possibally!
On Mugglenet, in the 'Snape is Good' topic, it mentions how Snape had 'harsh lines etched in his face'. Sounds like disgust, as if...could Severus performed nonverbal Occulmency? Could Dumbledore wanted to die to prove, once again, his 'loyalties'?
There are numerous times in HBP that Snape could've killed Harry, Hermoine, Luna, the students, staff, ect..Why wouldn't someone take that chance?

I know my ideas are 'iffy', but I'm getting more thoughts soon.
Please pardon all the misspellngs and grammar mistakes.

I don't think that Snape is a part of some huge, secret plan of DD, and that is why he allowed himself to he killed, for the greater good. I think it was more a case of the best of a lot of bad choices. If DD died on that tower, it ensured that only one life was lost, where as if he'd tried to stop it, I believe a lot more people would have died, including Draco and Harry, who are just children.

I believe Snape is on the side of good, but I wouldn't say he is a good person himself. I also can't see him hurrying to fall under the tyranny of Voldemort, so I do believe that he is still working for DD’s cause. I don't particularly want to refer to him as working for the Order, or for the good of Wizard kind, because in my mind, that's not why he's done what he does; I believe all he's done is due to his begrudging respect for DD, as well as protecting his own interests, nothing more.

I don't think that Snape is a part of some huge, secret plan of DD, and that is why he allowed himself to he killed, for the greater good. I think it was more a case of the best of a lot of bad choices. If DD died on that tower, it ensured that only one life was lost, where as if he'd tried to stop it, I believe a lot more people would have died, including Draco and Harry, who are just children.

Exactly, if it proved necessary. As someone brought up before, it would have been nice if Draco turned to the good side before being joined by the rest. Unfortunately, that was not the case and it did prove necessary that Dumbledore die instead of many other lives and Snape, which will prove to be a key in LV's demise.

I believe Snape is on the side of good, but I wouldn't say he is a good person himself. I also can't see him hurrying to fall under the tyranny of Voldemort, so I do believe that he is still working for DD’s cause. I don't particularly want to refer to him as working for the Order, or for the good of Wizard kind, because in my mind, that's not why he's done what he does; I believe all he's done is due to his begrudging respect for DD, as well as protecting his own interests, nothing more.

I agree, though his personal reasons in my view are love, revenge, life-debt and peace of mind. ;)

You know I'd love to believe that there is something to do with love in his actions, in that he's protecting someone because of a loved one, or because of a love of Dumbledore, but I really don't think he's got it in him to love anyone... actually i'll rephrase that, I believe he has the capacity to love someone, but he's so cocooned in his anger,fear, hatred and twisted personality he just doesn't. I think the closest he gets is seen in the protection of the students, ie Draco and Harry (as in PS). Even then it's not in a nice way.

I have to say that my feelings are always the most conflicted when I think about Snape and I think that's another reason there is no love for him, to get that close to him you'd have to let yourself be poisoned by his personality to a degree... don't you think?

You know I'd love to believe that there is something to do with love in his actions, in that he's protecting someone because of a loved one, or because of a love of Dumbledore, but I really don't think he's got it in him to love anyone... actually i'll rephrase that, I believe he has the capacity to love someone, but he's so cocooned in his anger,fear, hatred and twisted personality he just doesn't. I think the closest he gets is seen in the protection of the students, ie Draco and Harry (as in PS). Even then it's not in a nice way.

My inner eye tells me that we are definately going to clash on this one :lol:

Ah... Snape has loved and I believe still in love, with the memory of a dead girl that once showed him mercy. JK has confirmed this, that Snape has loved, we just don't know if it's the mother or Lily :lol: Personally, I think it's both.

His cocoon of hatred is stemmed I believe, or strengthened by the "denial of reciprocated love". But that's just a wild guess from me.

I have to say that my feelings are always the most conflicted when I think about Snape and I think that's another reason there is no love for him, to get that close to him you'd have to let yourself be poisoned by his personality to a degree... don't you think?

I don't know, in the same interview where JK tells us that Snape has loved, I'm pretty sure she hints that someone may have loved him. I can't really remember, it was a radio interview and it has been awhile since I've listened to it. I'll listen to it, then edit my post accordingly. ;)

I don't know, in the same interview where JK tells us that Snape has loved, I'm pretty sure she hints that someone may have loved him. I can't really remember, it was a radio interview and it has been awhile since I've listened to it. I'll listen to it, then edit my post accordingly. ;)
Are you talking about this quote per chance?


Lydon: Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love?

JKR: Yeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. Erm ...

Lydon: But you'd get an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: It is, isn't it ... I got ... There's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly stunned that you've said that - erm - and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read book 7. And that's all I'm going to say.
I´m not really sure what she is telling us here, I admit. I mean, I know she is not telling us anything because we will find out in DH. :) For me, Snape always seemed to be quite a loner. He really had an unfortunate childhood with an abusive father. I could think Snape loved his mother and was loved by her.
As for Lily I´m sure, if we dig too deep into it the mods will object. And before that happens, I will just state my personal opinion on it. I think Lily was a very nice, compassionate person who was friendly to Snape. Maybe they even were kind of friends at some point. (Some suggest Petunia´s "horrible boy" comment refers to Snape). I think Snape liked Lily very much, maybe he even loved her. But I don´t think Lily loved him. Could be wrong of course.

I can't remember seeing a quote where JKR has ever said that Snape loved anyone, I can remember her saying he's been loved and is therefore more culpable than Tom Riddle who has never loved or been loved.

From that quote about the 'who'd want Snape in love with them...' It sounds a little like she's saying there could be something to do with love and redemption in his character in the next book, but I don't know wether that's really there or if I'm getting too caught up in all the different ideas!!

Like I said before, I can't see him as someone with a secret love somewhere, but there is a part of me that hopes I'm wrong and he gets out of this ok... I'm a sucker for a happy ending!

I believe snape has degenerated to the evil side...he's a coward who isn't willing to stand for what he wants to do..I believe he genuinlly regrets killing Dumbledore, but he isn't going to revert to the good side.
I believe this for several reasons. Number one: that memory we saw in OOTP, sanpe was a coward then...and history repeats itself.
Number two: Snape was willing to put his life on the line to protect Draco: why would he abandon that post by running now?
Numer Three: Snape isn't a leader he's a follower, he also knows that the "good" side would reject him now, he'd have nothing to return to...

Snape isn't sadistically evil like Lucius, or Voldermort, he's more of a reluctant follower i believe.

Are you talking about this quote per chance?


Lydon: Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love?

JKR: Yeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. Erm ...

Lydon: But you'd get an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: It is, isn't it ... I got ... There's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly stunned that you've said that - erm - and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read book 7. And that's all I'm going to say.
I´m not really sure what she is telling us here, I admit. I mean, I know she is not telling us anything because we will find out in DH. :) For me, Snape always seemed to be quite a loner. He really had an unfortunate childhood with an abusive father. I could think Snape loved his mother and was loved by her.

Yup I agree, but I doubt that is what JK was referring to, especially since she was unwilling to talk about it. I mean, what mother would not love their child, especially in a situation like an abusive relationship, mother's tend to show their love more, for example, trying to protect them, sheltering them if possible, fighting for them even, just to avoid any attack on their child.

So what I'm saying is that Eileen Snape loving her son Snape and visa versa would be so obvious, that I hardly would regard it as spoiling anything.

Also the direction of the question is "fall in love", "romantically in love", etc. I hardly think that JK will put that in a children's book if you know what I mean.... :rotfl: Ewww :rotfl:

As for Lily I´m sure, if we dig too deep into it the mods will object. And before that happens, I will just state my personal opinion on it. I think Lily was a very nice, compassionate person who was friendly to Snape. Maybe they even were kind of friends at some point. (Some suggest Petunia´s "horrible boy" comment refers to Snape). I think Snape liked Lily very much, maybe he even loved her. But I don´t think Lily loved him. Could be wrong of course.

Oh, I totally agree with you. The question was " if Snape is going to fall in love?"; and personally would be quite *looking for family friendly word... can't find one* if Lily loved him back, which I highly doubt. Lily is a person with a strong mind, personality, etc, much like Ginny in that way and I can't see Lily loving two men at the same time. Let alone marrying the Snape's tormentor even if it was in the past and people change. If she loved him, she would not have gone with James. :D

Number one: that memory we saw in OOTP, sanpe was a coward then...and history repeats itself.

As much as I would love to agree with you, I can't. Personally, I think that in a way it was a fair fight, bullying on James part, but I don't see how Snape was a coward in that instance, he was disarmed and was jinxed so that he was unable to fight back.

Truth be told, I've always got the sneaking suspicion that Snape was not the complete innocent in the scene as some make him out to be.

Firstly, Harry notes how closely Snape follows the marauders.
Secondly, Snape knows or acts as though he has been expecting the attack.
Thirdly, I believe he was trying to find out what they were up to. :eyebrows:

But, it's just a theory that I read on the forum that to me rings a few bells. ;)

<<Snape would definately make sure LV knows he (Snape) dislikes Harry and would under no circumstances help him.>>

Snape has always helped Harry even at the last moments... Think about it. From the Quidditch match the first year, to making Harry duel Malfoy in the second, to "saving" Harry in the third, to not giving him the Vetiserrum in the fifth, and on teaching him, giving him advice while fleeing the murder scene in HBP he has always been there. He owes Harry's parents something... I know James saved him from Remus, but there is something with Lilly too that I am willing to bet (the thing with the werewolf was too insignificant in POA to really be super important now). Snape owes Harry. I will prove it before DH comes out... I am reading the series backwards so the important things are fresh in my mind and I am going to start posting reasons not only that Snape is good, but also the plot isssues that prove their was a plan to kill DD by DD and Snape

Before you read my reply, I just want to state, that yes, I do believe Snape is good and trust him. :)

<<Snape would definately make sure LV knows he (Snape) dislikes Harry and would under no circumstances help him.>>

Since Snape is a good occlumens, which allows him to hide his true feelings, he do see a glimspe of them none the less, when he loses control. All these times he has "lost it", have been with regard to the maraunders and Harry. Harry notes a look on Snape's face when looking at Lupin, which Snape reserves for only Harry. Snape definately does not like Harry, but does have his personal reasons for helping Harry none the less.

Snape has always helped Harry even at the last moments... Think about it. From the Quidditch match the first year,

The reason given by a very insightful wizard was not because he liked Harry, but because he was trying to settle a debt he owed to James.

to making Harry duel Malfoy in the second,

I fail to see where he saved Harry at the last minute, by making him duel the person he loathes.

to "saving" Harry in the third,

I disagree, Harry saved himself, using the timeturner and the use of his corporeal patronus.

to not giving him the Vetiserrum in the fifth,

True, he did so because Dumbledore would not approve, remember he is loyal to Dumbledore, plus Harry, learning from a good auror, did not drink it in the first place.

and on teaching him,

As harsh as this may seem, I fail to see where Snape taught him anything other than to despise Snape himself.

giving him advice while fleeing the murder scene in HBP

I don't agree that he did this because he liked Harry, but I certainly agre on his motive for doing so. To give Harry a chance against LV in the last showdown as well as to keep him pure. He would not have done so if he was not Dumbledore's man.

he has always been there. He owes Harry's parents something... I know James saved him from Remus, but there is something with Lilly too that I am willing to bet (the thing with the werewolf was too insignificant in POA to really be super important now). Snape owes Harry. I will prove it before DH comes out... I am reading the series backwards so the important things are fresh in my mind and I am going to start posting reasons not only that Snape is good, but also the plot isssues that prove their was a plan to kill DD by DD and Snape

I agree on the reasoning, but I do not agree that Snape owes Harry anything, it's more to do with Snape's own personal reasons, eg. Lily, James, Dumbledore, his own peace of mind.

I don't agree that it was planned the Dumbledore died, but I do agree that Dumbledore planned that Snape must kill him "if it proves necessary".

Yup I agree, but I doubt that is what JK was referring to, especially since she was unwilling to talk about it. I mean, what mother would not love their child, especially in a situation like an abusive relationship, mother's tend to show their love more, for example, trying to protect them, sheltering them if possible, fighting for them even, just to avoid any attack on their child.

So what I'm saying is that Eileen Snape loving her son Snape and visa versa would be so obvious, that I hardly would regard it as spoiling anything.

Also the direction of the question is "fall in love", "romantically in love", etc. I hardly think that JK will put that in a children's book if you know what I mean.... :rotfl: Ewww :rotfl: :lol: Oh my. Yep, I mixed that up. I never wanted to imply there was ...err..."romantic love" between Snape and his mother. I was thinking more along the lines of general love, philos, agape, not eros. But you are correct. The interviewer wanted to know if Snape would "fall in love" and that definately refers to romantic love. Well, I am pretty sure Snape will not fall in love in DH (unless he develops feelings for Narcissa).

Oh, I totally agree with you. The question was " if Snape is going to fall in love?"; and personally would be quite *looking for family friendly word... can't find one* if Lily loved him back, which I highly doubt. Lily is a person with a strong mind, personality, etc, much like Ginny in that way and I can't see Lily loving two men at the same time. Let alone marrying the Snape's tormentor even if it was in the past and people change. If she loved him, she would not have gone with James. :D I agree.

As much as I would love to agree with you, I can't. Personally, I think that in a way it was a fair fight, bullying on James part, but I don't see how Snape was a coward in that instance, he was disarmed and was jinxed so that he was unable to fight back.

Truth be told, I've always got the sneaking suspicion that Snape was not the complete innocent in the scene as some make him out to be.

Firstly, Harry notes how closely Snape follows the marauders.
Secondly, Snape knows or acts as though he has been expecting the attack.
Thirdly, I believe he was trying to find out what they were up to. :eyebrows:

But, it's just a theory that I read on the forum that to me rings a few bells. ;)I agree on this as well. Snape and the Marauders had a long prehistory. This incident we´ve seen in the pensieve could have been just one of many.
And I think it went vice versa. In PoA, Lupin tells Snape was following them around because he had caught on the fact that something odd was going on (werewolf, animagi) with the intend to report them to Dumbledore.
BTW: Do we know if this incident happend before James saved Snape from going into the Shrieking Shack or after it?

Hi, I'm new to this thread, and I apologise in advance if someone has already made this point.

The question Lydon asked JKR in the interview was "Is Snape going to fall in love?" and JKR said the idea of having Snape in love with them was "horrible". But then she says she wants to say more but can't because it would ruin ... book 7.

Perhaps Snape proves in the final book that what he has, and has had all along, is the power that Harry possesses "in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all." (Dumbledore: The Lost Prophecy: OOTP), the power to love.

:lol: Oh my. Yep, I mixed that up. I never wanted to imply there was ...err..."romantic love" between Snape and his mother. I was thinking more along the lines of general love, philos, agape, not eros. But you are correct. The interviewer wanted to know if Snape would "fall in love" and that definately refers to romantic love. Well, I am pretty sure Snape will not fall in love in DH (unless he develops feelings for Narcissa).

I agree, though if he does develope feelings for Narcissa, I don't think that he would make any play for her unless Lucius dies early in the book.

I agree on this as well. Snape and the Marauders had a long prehistory. This incident we´ve seen in the pensieve could have been just one of many.
And I think it went vice versa. In PoA, Lupin tells Snape was following them around because he had caught on the fact that something odd was going on (werewolf, animagi) with the intend to report them to Dumbledore.
BTW: Do we know if this incident happend before James saved Snape from going into the Shrieking Shack or after it?

The Shrieking Shack incident was in year 6, though it's hard to recognise if it happened early in the year, mid year and end of year.

I've been thinking (scary, I know)...would Snape turning out to be good be too predictable for JK Rowling? I suspect she's going to come up with something that will fool everyone.

I don't know, she makes comments about the Snape fans shouldn't be supporting him (or 'falling for the bad guy') but then that comment about him loving someone being horrible and how it links to the 7th book kind of makes me think he'll be ok, especially when it had to do with redemption the stuff she wanted to talk about, but didn't.

I've been thinking (scary, I know)...would Snape turning out to be good be too predictable for JK Rowling? I suspect she's going to come up with something that will fool everyone.

Me too. Although he has just murdered Dumbledore so it wouldn't be a huge shock if he was bad either. Good god I heart the Snape, please be good!

I don't know, if I didn't post to the forums, the thought would never have crossed my mind, I would have been exactly as Harry feels about Snape. But you even get people that have discussed such things on the forum and they don't believe that Snape was good.

Basically, it would be a "Is Dumbledore alive or not?" the difference being that we will not get our answer until after we have read DH. :D

Well.... because both the main options seem too obvious and I don't really want to commit myself, I'm going to say 3 different things. (bad i know!) 1) He could be undecided, unlikely but something to throw out. 2) He could have switched sides some number of times. I like this one. He could have been on the OotP side of things after Voldy fell and just stayed that way until he rose again. After playing spy for about 2 years (for Dumbledore still), he could have started to become swayed back into his old ways and joined the Death Eaters before killing Dumbledore for Voldemort. 3) My last theory is the same as my prevous, but Snape killing Dumbledore was part of a plan perhaps because Dumbledore knew he would die soon from his hand.
So. There's my over-kill theories. I think he'll come over to the good side just before death to make us miss him a little more, or just for the sake of showing something in his character.

I don't know, if I didn't post to the forums, the thought would never have crossed my mind, I would have been exactly as Harry feels about Snape. But you even get people that have discussed such things on the forum and they don't believe that Snape was good.

Basically, it would be a "Is Dumbledore alive or not?" the difference being that we will not get our answer until after we have read DH. :DI couldn´t believe it. To be honest, I think I was even more shocked by the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore, than the fact that Dumbledore was dead. Okay, I admit I got spoilt on that one before, I knew he was going to die, but not how. Nevertheless, Snape always was an ambiguous character. He has been painted as that throughout the books, but in the end I tended to believe in Dumbledore. Like Hermione frequently pointed out, "Dumbledore trusts him, so he can be trusted" (paraphrased). When I read Snape killing Dumbledore, I couldn´t believe it, resp. I didn´t want to believe it. I somehow always thought that Snape, though being an unpleasant person, IMO, was on the good side. After HBP I was astonished and a bit disappointed that JKR had, as far as I saw it, revealed Snape´s true nature in the penultimate book. Then I joined the online fandom and read that people still thought he could be on the good side and I subscribed to that theory. Basically I think, going by what JKR has told us about Snape in six books, it could go either way, and whatever she does, some will consider it obvious, some will consider it ingenious.

I couldn´t believe it. To be honest, I think I was even more shocked by the fact that Snape killed Dumbledore, than the fact that Dumbledore was dead. Okay, I admit I got spoilt on that one before, I knew he was going to die, but not how.
Me too! Well, Dumbledore dying was kind of obvious, although I was hoping he'd last until book 7. But Snape killing him was shocking in the extreme. I was horrified, and I know someone who actually threw the book across the room at that point. I was always convinced that Snape was nasty but good. Now I think he is good, and that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, but sometimes I wonder if that isn't just wishful thinking!

I truly do believe Snape is good, but I find myself wanting it not only because I adore his character, but just simply because I don't want to believe Dumbledore was wrong about him. I feel like I'm insulting him by thinking any other way than he did lol!

Me too! Well, Dumbledore dying was kind of obvious, although I was hoping he'd last until book 7. But Snape killing him was shocking in the extreme. I was horrified, and I know someone who actually threw the book across the room at that point. I was always convinced that Snape was nasty but good. Now I think he is good, and that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, but sometimes I wonder if that isn't just wishful thinking!

I creid when I read it. I agree with you thinking that Snape is good and that Dumbledore wanted him to kill him. I really do beleive that he is good. I hope:hmm:

[QUOTE]I disagree, Harry saved himself, using the timeturner and the use of his corporeal patronus.[QUOTE]


Where is the proof Harry was seeing himself across the lake? We found out in HBP they can change their patronus'! Harry assumed it was himself because the patronus was a stag, I have found no evidenced from JKR that it was harry. I think it was snape.

[QUOTE]I disagree, Harry saved himself, using the timeturner and the use of his corporeal patronus.[QUOTE]


Where is the proof Harry was seeing himself across the lake? We found out in HBP they can change their patronus'! Harry assumed it was himself because the patronus was a stag, I have found no evidenced from JKR that it was harry. I think it was snape.


We know it was Harry, because he has that moment of realisation on the bank of the lake watching and waiting for whoever it was to turn up and perform the patronus... he then does it himself, because he realises that it was actually himself that did it. Plus Snape was unconscious on the ground at the time and didn't use a time turner... plus if it was him that cast the charm, 2nd Harry would've seen him.

We know it was Harry, because he has that moment of realisation on the bank of the lake watching and waiting for whoever it was to turn up and perform the patronus... he then does it himself, because he realises that it was actually himself that did it. Plus Snape was unconscious on the ground at the time and didn't use a time turner... plus if it was him that cast the charm, 2nd Harry would've seen him.

Someone, I cannot recall who, once suggested that while Harry did cast the Patronus (we know he did, it is in the book), he was able to chase away such a huge crowd of Dementors in part because Snape helped him. In HBP, we learn that Harry and Snape have a disagreement about how to handle Dementors, so Snape could have done so without using a Patronus Charm at all.

Just tossing it out there... ;)

:lol: Looks like I'm the only one that wasn't surprised :lol: I cried for ages though, but I wasn't surprised a bit when Snape did the deed. :shrug:

Mind you, at that time I thought he was LV's man, that has now changed :D

:lol: Looks like I'm the only one that wasn't surprised :lol: I cried for ages though, but I wasn't surprised a bit when Snape did the deed. :shrug:

Mind you, at that time I thought he was LV's man, that has now changed :D

so did I. It took me a couple of
times of reading HBP to see that Snape in my
mind was doing what Dumbledore told him to do.
I really hope that we are right in thinking that Snape is good.
You never know what JK will do.

so did I. It took me a couple of
times of reading HBP to see that Snape in my
mind was doing what Dumbledore told him to do.

It's nice to know your not alone. :rockon:

I really hope that we are right in thinking that Snape is good.
You never know what JK will do.

Me too, I'd go nuts if I'm wrong. :lol: But I'm pretty confident we're right and Snape is good. :tu:

I am so confused about Snape. Part of me really does think he's bad for killing Dumbledore, but I can see a hint of Dumbledore pleading to Snape to actually do it anyway. The one thing that does really stick out in my mind is how Snape has been towards Harry through out the series, even if he didn't get on well with James and Sirius there's no real need to take it out on Harry.

I think regardless of whether Snape is good or not he'll come over to the good side, and it'll be a really hard thing for Harry to have to swallow.

The one thing that does really stick out in my mind is how Snape has been towards Harry through out the series, even if he didn't get on well with James and Sirius there's no real need to take it out on Harry.

And hence the reason why I've always believed he was bad.

At the moment I'm still coming to terms with Snape being good, but as Sirius said, "The world is not separated into death eaters and good people".

So applying that to Snape, "The world is not separated into good people and jerks". :lol: Sorry, couldn't help myself. :D But I do truly believe he is innocent, mainly because of carefully hidden clues JK has left for us in HBP. ;)

But I'm pretty confident we're right and Snape is good.
What is good though? I think JKR has more options as Snape always being Dumbledore’s man and Snape always being Voldemort’s man.

Snape betraying Dumbledore but unable to be loyal to Voldemort (life debt ore other issues) could be very interesting.

The thing with Snape being loyal to Dumbledore is that I don’t think JKR condones murder. She is all for sacrifices and so on but she takes a strong stand against evil. I don’t think she will make any sacrifice ambiguous, a sacrifice in her world is clear.

The Snape is loyal to Dumbledore theories are not clear. Dumbledore dying because Snape rushed into a vow is not such a clear cut case.
Other solutions, like Dumbledore already dying are not tricking readers, they are conning readers. JKR doesn’t do that.

The other thing is that JKR is big on choices. Dumbledore taking Snape’s choice away is another issue with contradicts this. Especially since it is all for the greater good. Choices are very important but on the biggest twist in the books choices are made redundant?

And then we have JKR’s comments on Snape. I just don’t think they are all red herrings. Being culpable does have a meaning and I don’t think being culpable means that Snape did do what Dumbledore wanted.

What is good though? I think JKR has more options as Snape always being Dumbledore’s man and Snape always being Voldemort’s man.

I don't think so, I've always believed that he was planning to switch in OOTP, but wanted to wait and see, for what, don't know. :shrug: But she has done an excellent job keeping us guessing. ;)

The other thing is that JKR is big on choices. Dumbledore taking Snape’s choice away is another issue with contradicts this. Especially since it is all for the greater good. Choices are very important but on the biggest twist in the books choices are made redundant?

I disagree, Snape always had a choice. He had a choice to complete the vow or go against it. He had a choice to do what he agreed with Dumbledore or go against it. There are always choices, what it does highlight is that choices are never cut and dry, choices are never always easy.

Sorry, I just answered the one I support, can't really say much for the other theories as I don't know much about their workings :D

And then we have JKR’s comments on Snape. I just don’t think they are all red herrings. Being culpable does have a meaning and I don’t think being culpable means that Snape did do what Dumbledore wanted.

I agree, I don't think any of JK's comments are red herrings. But I'm not sure what your emphasis on capable is? Sorry :blush: ... Interview I haven't read yet?

Although I was utterly shocked when I read about Dumbledore dying and had never expected it (well, I started visiting forums only after HBP), I have never doubted, even for a moment, that Snape was Dumbledore's man. I just have this feeling he's forever loyal to Dumbledore. This "he's an old man and makes mistakes" explanation of Dumbledore's "betrayed" trust seems very shallow to me, even somewhat degrading for Dumbledore. He trusted Snape for a reason. There's just too much we don't yet know, that's why a convincing theory can't be formed, but I'm sure the gaps will be filled in DH and it will all make perfect sense to everyone.

Other solutions, like Dumbledore already dying are not tricking readers, they are conning readers. JKR doesn’t do that.
I have to disagree. In the scene prior to "The Lightning-Struck Tower" we see Dumbledore drink a green potion, which he refuses to state is not a deadly poison. (He merely states that it is not fast-acting). The potion has seriously bad effects on him, both physically and emotionally. Upon drinking the potion, he collapses to the floor, breathes a 'death rattle', and lies still as though dead. Harry, in fact, fears he is. Desperate, Harry revives him, something that requires two spells.

On the Tower, descriptions of Dumbledore suggest that during his conversation with Draco, he is getting worse, not better. (He keeps slipping further and further down the wall of the tower, because he is so weak he cannot stand unsupported.)

What more would she need to do to have 'warned' us sufficiently that Dumbledore might be dying, in your view?

The other thing is that JKR is big on choices. Dumbledore taking Snape’s choice away is another issue with contradicts this. Especially since it is all for the greater good.
Dumbledore did not Imperius Snape. He asked him to so something. Snape was free to choose differently.

And then we have JKR’s comments on Snape. I just don’t think they are all red herrings. Being culpable does have a meaning and I don’t think being culpable means that Snape did do what Dumbledore wanted.

The problem is, there are so many things for which Snape is culpable without the murder of Dumbledore tossed in. She could have been referring to any of them. My opinion is that she had in mind that Snape told Voldemort the Prophecy. An act for which (if Dumbledore is to be believed) Snape himself agrees he is culpable.

This "he's an old man and makes mistakes" explanation of Dumbledore's "betrayed" trust seems very shallow to me, even somewhat degrading for Dumbledore. He trusted Snape for a reason.

I agree. I mean, eventhough Dumbledore keeps saying he made mistakes; mistakes that he can't correct, he wouldn't let Snape teach at his school, let him join the order or let him teach Harry occlumency if he didn't have a really good reason to trust him. I honestly have to admit that i was in the 'Snape is evil' camp waving little flags and wearing a 'Go Sirius!' t-shirt, until i read book five. But after OOTP and HBP, this theory about Snape betraying Dumbledore's trust seems unlikely to me.

But Dumbledore said in HBP that the occlumency lesson's from Snape was a mistake,
why do you think he thought so and do you think Harry could have managed it under a
different teacher?

I have to disagree. In the scene prior to "The Lightning-Struck Tower" we see Dumbledore drink a green potion, which he refuses to state is not a deadly poison. (He merely states that it is not fast-acting). The potion has seriously bad effects on him, both physically and emotionally. Upon drinking the potion, he collapses to the floor, breathes a 'death rattle', and lies still as though dead. Harry, in fact, fears he is. Desperate, Harry revives him, something that requires two spells.

On the Tower, descriptions of Dumbledore suggest that during his conversation with Draco, he is getting worse, not better. (He keeps slipping further and further down the wall of the tower, because he is so weak he cannot stand unsupported.)I agree. I think it has been hinted at Dumbledore already dying from the beginning of HBP onwards. Hermione makes a comment on his withered hand, that is looked as if it was dead. Harry comments once or twice on Dumbledore looking frail, weakened.

Dumbledore did not Imperius Snape. He asked him to so something. Snape was free to choose differently.I´m not sure about this though. I think the situation on the Tower was hopeless. First of all there was the UV to consider. Snape could still have refused to fulfill Draco´s task.Then Snape would have died from the Vow and one of the other DEs would have killed DD. Or Draco would have changed his mind and fulfilled his task in the end, something that Dumbledore certainly wanted to prevent. So I think Snape had not really a choice.
What still stands out as well is Dumbledore saying "Severus, please" on the Tower. I really don´t think he begged for his life here.

But Dumbledore said in HBP that the occlumency lesson's from Snape was a mistake, why do you think he thought so and do you think Harry could have managed it under a different teacher?
Dumbledore didn't say that because he didn't trust Snape. He explained that Harry didn't really 'need' the occlumency lessons because LV would never try to posess someone who carried so much love inside of him. If anything, i'd say Snape wasn't the best choice as an occlumency teacher because of his history with Harry's parents. But that's just my opinion. And there weren't exactly that many wirzards or witches around who were as good at occlumency as Snape is.


Dumbledore did not Imperius Snape. He asked him to so something. Snape was free to choose differently.
I´m not sure about this though. I think the situation on the Tower was hopeless. First of all there was the UV to consider. Snape could still have refused to fulfill Draco´s task.Then Snape would have died from the Vow and one of the other DEs would have killed DD. Or Draco would have changed his mind and fulfilled his task in the end, something that Dumbledore certainly wanted to prevent. So I think Snape had not really a choice. What still stands out as well is Dumbledore saying "Severus, please" on the Tower. I really don´t think he begged for his life here.
I don't know about that. I agree that Dumbledore didn't impirius Snape. The situation on the tower was indeed hopeless, like you said, but there's still a difference between seeing no other way out and acting in desperation, or having your free will taken away. I think the emphasis here is on 'free will', and Snape still had that. That's why he looked so disgusted when he killed DD. Because he knew what he had to do; because he had (possibly) promissed DD he'd never risk his cover with LV, no matter what happened. To me, the scene where Harry tries to 'catch' Snape and Snape just blocks Harry's attempts to stop him simply screams that Snape was as digusted about what he had just done as Harry was.

I don't know what to think anymore. I want to think that Snape is bad, but that may just be what we're SUPPOSED to think. Perhaps Snape had to kill Dumbledore so that Voldemort wouldn't suspect him of being on the "good side"? And wouldn't it have been obvious if in the situation Snape had denied Mrs. Malfoy's request? I would have seemed suspicious if he had refused because it could have meant that he wanted Dumbledore to live on. Which would only prove to be a challenge against Voldemort. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I still think it could go either way.

I think Snape could have refused to take the Vow, explaining that he didn't want to interfere with Voldemort's plans for Draco. So in that sense, refusing to take the Vow would prove his loyalty to Voldemort. Snape had already explained all of Belatrix's questions about his loyalty, so going out on a limb and taking the Vow wasn't necessary. In fact, Belatrix was surprised when Snape agreed to the Vow, and probably didn't expect him to do something so rash.

Also - Snape doesn't have to prove anything to Belatrix, only to Voldemort. He could tell her to go soak her head in a bucket of water and it wouldn't hurt him one bit.

What is good though? I think JKR has more options as Snape always being Dumbledore’s man and Snape always being Voldemort’s man.

Snape betraying Dumbledore but unable to be loyal to Voldemort (life debt ore other issues) could be very interesting.

The thing with Snape being loyal to Dumbledore is that I don’t think JKR condones murder. She is all for sacrifices and so on but she takes a strong stand against evil. I don’t think she will make any sacrifice ambiguous, a sacrifice in her world is clear.

The Snape is loyal to Dumbledore theories are not clear. Dumbledore dying because Snape rushed into a vow is not such a clear cut case.
Other solutions, like Dumbledore already dying are not tricking readers, they are conning readers. JKR doesn’t do that.

The other thing is that JKR is big on choices. Dumbledore taking Snape’s choice away is another issue with contradicts this. Especially since it is all for the greater good. Choices are very important but on the biggest twist in the books choices are made redundant?

And then we have JKR’s comments on Snape. I just don’t think they are all red herrings. Being culpable does have a meaning and I don’t think being culpable means that Snape did do what Dumbledore wanted. Yes it does and I remember her saying in an interview that he was more culpable than Voldemort since someone loved him and Voldemort never had that happen to him... how that will come into play in book 7 I don't know, but I for one can't wait to find out!!

When JKR talks of Snape being culpable, It seems to me as if she's referring as much to his attitudes as to his actions throughout the entire series, not just the most recent book. He may be culpable for what transpired with the prophesy, but I think she also means in the way he treats people too. Where Voldemort has never cared for anyone or been cared for Snape was. So when Voldemort goes of and tries to take over the world its very wrong, but not entirely unexpected of him, Snape being a real nasty jerk to everyone is less excusable, for want of a better word...There's always an individuals own morality to think on and if Voldemort never really was forced or shown how to think morally and Snape was, then the way he treats the students and other adults would make him more culpable I believe. I think it’s a matter of him having a choice to do what is right and good, knowing what is right and good, but being so caught up in his own pain and sufferings that he refuses to change. He is still on the side of Dumbledore, but not necessarily for the noble reasons that others are there for.

When JKR talks of Snape being culpable, It seems to me as if she's referring as much to his attitudes as to his actions throughout the entire series, not just the most recent book. He may be culpable for what transpired with the prophesy, but I think she also means in the way he treats people too. Where Voldemort has never cared for anyone or been cared for Snape was. So when Voldemort goes of and tries to take over the world its very wrong, but not entirely unexpected of him, Snape being a real nasty jerk to everyone is less excusable, for want of a better word...There's always an individuals own morality to think on and if Voldemort never really was forced or shown how to think morally and Snape was, then the way he treats the students and other adults would make him more culpable I believe. I think it’s a matter of him having a choice to do what is right and good, knowing what is right and good, but being so caught up in his own pain and sufferings that he refuses to change. He is still on the side of Dumbledore, but not necessarily for the noble reasons that others are there for.I agree on this as well... his attitude toward everyone was just nasty and he needs to change it or else it will end up eating him up inside. I also think that he is on the side of good... hopefully something in book 7 will make him change somewhat.

But Dumbledore said in HBP that the occlumency lesson's from Snape was a mistake,
why do you think he thought so and do you think Harry could have managed it under a
different teacher?

He said it had been a mistake because he underestimated the bitterness and harsh feeling Snape still nurtured for James and Sirius, which brought about the failure of the lessons.

Posted by Deamon_in_a_box:
I think Snape could have refused to take the Vow, explaining that he didn't want to interfere with Voldemort's plans for Draco. So in that sense, refusing to take the Vow would prove his loyalty to Voldemort. Snape had already explained all of Belatrix's questions about his loyalty, so going out on a limb and taking the Vow wasn't necessary. In fact, Belatrix was surprised when Snape agreed to the Vow, and probably didn't expect him to do something so rash.

No, he couldn't refuse. It was vital for his cover to accept the vow. Yes, Bellatrix didn't expect him to, but that was precisely because she was still convinced he's not loyal to Voldemort. Remember, she's one of Voldemort's closest followers and having her convinced is vital. That was the only way to do that.

I agree on this as well... his attitude toward everyone was just nasty and he needs to change it or else it will end up eating him up inside. I also think that he is on the side of good... hopefully something in book 7 will make him change somewhat.

I don't think his personality will change, but I believe he'll do what's right... I think he's always done the 'right' thing when it counts... he's just nasty for the rest of the time.

I have to disagree. In the scene prior to "The Lightning-Struck Tower" we see Dumbledore drink a green potion, which he refuses to state is not a deadly poison. (He merely states that it is not fast-acting). The potion has seriously bad effects on him, both physically and emotionally. Upon drinking the potion, he collapses to the floor, breathes a 'death rattle', and lies still as though dead. Harry, in fact, fears he is. Desperate, Harry revives him, something that requires two spells.

What more would she need to do to have 'warned' us sufficiently that Dumbledore might be dying, in your view?

For the potion to be killing I would have liked Dumbledore to state that could be a possible effect of the potion, instead of denying it could be a effect of the potion. Dumbledore states the possible effects of the potion (render him incapable) and killing isn’t one of them.Of course Dumbledore could be wrong but the interpretation that Dumbledore is saying that the potion doesn’t kill is supported in canon by Harry saying that Dumbledore promised it didn’t kill. This is the interpretation canon provides therefore it is rather logical to say that canon doesn’t say that the potion kills. We can throw in all kind of theories about Dumbledore being mistaken and/or Harry being mistaken in his words but that is not what we have.

But it really doesn’t matter that much: Snape had promised to murder Dumbledore and that’s what he did. Dumbledore hadn’t drunk the potion when Snape promised this.

We’ve seen spinner’s end and we’ve seen Snape being in control of the situation, he sets the agenda of the meeting. And he takes a vow. When he took the vow he ensured that or he or Dumbledore would die. That’s not good spying. And for this lacklustre performance Dumbledore has to die?

The trust of Voldemort is supposed to be important but he took a vow to ensure Bella’s trust? That doesn’t make sense, Bella doesn’t have the trust of Voldemort but Snape has.

But those are just examples of the theories people created to explain Snape is still good. Lot’s of possiblities in the Potter verse of course but what I really meant is having Snape murder Dumbledore on his orders goes against the grain of the series.

Did Snape have a choice if he acted on Dumbledore’s orders? Of course, just like James had a choice at GH. There is a choice but it is not really a choice. Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness in the books, if he orders Snape to kill it absolves Snape’s part, it really doesn’t give Snape much of a choice.

Why would Dumbledore order Snape to kill him? Because Snape had to kill him, because of the vow. Dumbledore took the consequence of Snape’s choice, when he took the vow, away in those scenario’s. JKR, being big on choices, is not likely to use such an cop out scenario. Same with Dumbledore already dying: it takes the consequences of the vow, of Snape’s actions away. That does contradict her theme of choices, I don’t think she will go this way.

Let’s face it: there is one person who really doesn’t have a real choice in the books and that is Harry. Harry has to fight Voldemort because Voldemort hunts Harry. How does JKR solve this: by having harry make a distinct choice of fighting Voldemort till the end, by having hin enter the arena with his head held high. So even in the one instance where one could argue there is no choice JKR takes care to show the element of choice. That’s an important theme of the books.
In having Snape kill Dumbledore on his orders she doesn’t give Snape a realistic choice at all. That’s not the themes of the books.

Another theme not to be underestimated is the evilness of murder.
People die, but do you care when they die? Do you absolutely have a sense of how evil it is to take another person's life? Yes, I think in my book you do. I think you do. I think you see that is a horrific thing. I have enormous respect for human life. I do not think that you would read either of the deaths in that book and think, yeah, well, he's gone, off we go. Not at all. I think it's very clear where my sympathies lie. And here we are dealing with someone, I'm dealing with a villain who does hold human life incredibly cheap. That's how it happens: one squeeze of the trigger. Gone. Forever. That's evil. It's a terrible, terrible thing but you're right, I know where I draw the line. Other people will draw the line in a different place and they will disagree with me. ---"J.K. Rowling Interview," CBCNewsWorld: Hot Type, July 13, 2000.
This is JKR writing about murder. The whole Snape acted on Dumbledore’s orders scenario is ambigious to say the least. If you look at those quotes is this a person who would choose to write a murder in an ambigious state? JKR does want that the reader understands how evil it is to take a human life, that it is a horrific thing to do. Is it even remotely likely that there will be a murder for the greater good without us understanding the why’s and how’s? I just don’t see JKR going this way. She doesn’t want to give a false impression of murder. If Snape didn’t murder Dumbledore that however would be precisely what’s she has done. Cheapen her own theme? Not very likely. JKR, in her own words, knows where to draw the line.

The whole Snape acting on Dumbledore’s orders goes against the basic themes of the books, the themes of choices and the evilness of murder are just too strong to be ignored. JKR is true to her themes in my opinion.

JKR has also said that Snape was more culpable then Voldemort in a way because he had been loved. That is a pretty strong statement, as we know what Voldemort does is not pretty. And we are meant to take it that way: Voldemort is very evil indeed, killing thousands of people. In a way Snape is even worse, according to JKR. Worse because he mistreated students? Worse because he told a prophecy (without knowing the full consequences of this), or worse because he committed the same crime as Voldemort (though not on the same scale) with this one difference: because Snape was loved and killed the person who took care of him he is worse then Voldemort in that respect.

What would it mean for Voldemort’s crimes if simple mistreating students and tittelling is worse in a way then his crimes? It just doesn’t make sense. JKR does not want us to believe that mistreating students is actually worse then killing and torture. More culpable then Voldemort is a rather strong statement, it fits with a real crime, not with mistreatment and telling.

All just my opinion of course but I can’t help feeling that all those complicated theories about Snape acting on Dumbledore’s orders tend to forget the bigger picture JKR paints. She has her themes, she will not forsake them only to explain them at a later stage.

It’s not likely that posts like this will convince anyone at all, or to speak with JKR: you people, you never give up hope, do you?

Another theme not to be underestimated is the evilness of murder.
...This is JKR writing about murder. The whole Snape acted on Dumbledore’s orders scenario is ambigious to say the least. If you look at those quotes is this a person who would choose to write a murder in an ambigious state? JKR does want that the reader understands how evil it is to take a human life, that it is a horrific thing to do. Is it even remotely likely that there will be a murder for the greater good without us understanding the why’s and how’s? [...]All just my opinion of course but I can’t help feeling that all those complicated theories about Snape acting on Dumbledore’s orders tend to forget the bigger picture JKR paints. She has her themes, she will not forsake them only to explain them at a later stage.

It’s not likely that posts like this will convince anyone at all, or to speak with JKR: you people, you never give up hope, do you?


I take your point about JKR's themes and it's a good one, but in the interview you cite she is clearly talking about "villains" who "murder" and "hold life cheap". In the scenaria that I and other good-Snapers have been envisaging, the killing which takes place is not a murder. If Snape killed DD, on DD's own orders, in order to fulfil some higher purpose of the Order (sorry, I've used the word "order" far too many times, with far too many different meanings in that sentence, but I'm too tired to think of synonyms!)he would not be a "villain" and he would not be committing the crime of murder. If we are right in believing that in the conversation Hagrid overheard he was protesting that he din't want to carry out the killing and that the "hatred and revulsion etched on his face" are for what he has to do, not for DD himself, then he clearly doesn't "hold life cheap" - in fact, he holds it to be very precious.

And there are other themes at stake. Dumbledore doesn't hold others' lives cheap, but unlike Voldemort, he has never been guilty of cowardly and self-obsessed attachment to his own life. In PS/SS, right at the beginning of the series, we are introduced to the idea of death being something to be embraced, not feared, when DD persuades Nicolas Flamel and his wife that eternal life is something they would be better off without. (Voldemort, by contrast, is prepared to commit ever more atrocious deeds and to split his own soul in order to preserve his own life. In a sense he values his own life, not too cheaply, but at too great a price.) It seems to me that a man prepared to advise his own close friends to die, like sleep after a very busy day, might well choose the sleep option himself. That's another reason why I believe Dumbledore's death was at his own instigation.

Edit: New point. It's just occurred to me, the conversation that Hagrid overhears (where Snape says maybe DD assumes too much, and maybe he doesn't want to do it any more). We good-Snapers assume that he's talking about the agreement to kill Dumbledore. If we're wrong, how else can that conversation be explained? If he were planning to murder Dumbledore, either to please Voldemort or to avoid dying himself because of the Unbreakable Vow he'd hardly advertise his treachery to Dumbledore by having an argument about his willingness to fulfil his duties as an Order member, would he? If it's not about the Killing Dumbledore Plan, then what is it about?

Of course Dumbledore could be wrong but the interpretation that Dumbledore is saying that the potion doesn’t kill is supported in canon by Harry saying that Dumbledore promised it didn’t kill. This is the interpretation canon provides therefore it is rather logical to say that canon doesn’t say that the potion kills. We can throw in all kind of theories about Dumbledore being mistaken and/or Harry being mistaken in his words but that is not what we have.
First, Dumbledore states that Voldemort would like to know that someone has drunk the potion. WE have no evidence that he does, however, so the simplet interpretation of the canon is that he is mistaken.

My own interptretation of the canon is that Dumbledore feared the potion might be a slow-acting poison, and also feared that Harry would refuse to keep his word if he knew this. So, without stating an outright lie, he danced around the issue to reassure Harry sufficiently that Harry agreed to abide by his promise.

This is beside my point, really, though. The symptoms shown in the two chapters are in my opinion more than enough of a clue that the potion might be poisonous. I am not claiming this is true; merely that if Rowling reveals it to be true in DH, this revelation will be consistent with what has gone before.

But it really doesn’t matter that much: Snape had promised to murder Dumbledore and that’s what he did. Dumbledore hadn’t drunk the potion when Snape promised this.
We are only given the actual circumstances under which Snape killed him. We do not know whether he would have killed him under all possible sets of circumstances.

Why would Dumbledore order Snape to kill him? Because Snape had to kill him, because of the vow. Dumbledore took the consequence of Snape’s choice, when he took the vow, away in those scenario’s.
Well, apparenly, Dumbledore asked.

In having Snape kill Dumbledore on his orders she doesn’t give Snape a realistic choice at all. That’s not the themes of the books.
If he didn't ask, would Snape have a more realistic choice? She wrote the no-win situation on the Tower. It is in part a consequence of Snape's earlier actions, but that is beside the point you are making. At that moment, was there a 'realistic choice' for Snape?

Another theme not to be underestimated is the evilness of murder.
I think it's very clear where my sympathies lie. And here we are dealing with someone, I'm dealing with a villain who does hold human life incredibly cheap. That's how it happens: one squeeze of the trigger. Gone. Forever. That's evil. It's a terrible, terrible thing but you're right, I know where I draw the line. Other people will draw the line in a different place and they will disagree with me. ---"J.K. Rowling Interview," CBCNewsWorld: Hot Type, July 13, 2000.
This is JKR writing about murder. The whole Snape acted on Dumbledore’s orders scenario is ambigious to say the least. If you look at those quotes is this a person who would choose to write a murder in an ambigious state?

First, I agree with Melaszka that the use of the word "murder" in this context is not necessarily accurate. Second, she's not showing this as something either of the principals takes lightly. Dumbledore is 'pleading' with Snape. Snape, after he kills Dumbledore, is described as being in as much pain as a dog trapped in a burning house.

JKR does want that the reader understands how evil it is to take a human life, that it is a horrific thing to do. Is it even remotely likely that there will be a murder for the greater good without us understanding the why’s and how’s?

Here we agree 100%. If Snape killed Dumbledore on his orders, and out of loyalty to the 'good side', I am confident we will understand the why's and how's before DH is over.

What would it mean for Voldemort’s crimes if simple mistreating students and tittelling is worse in a way then his crimes?

There's also that Dark Mark - choosing to becoming a follower of someone who has committed all those crimes you list.

It’s not likely that posts like this will convince anyone at all, or to speak with JKR: you people, you never give up hope, do you?

Certainly not at this point.:D The idea that Dumbledore suspected Snape the moment he showed up on the Tower makes no sense. He trusts Snape completely, and scares Harry the moment Snape shows up? And there has been no new information out which casts any doubt on the interpretation I favor.

If we're wrong, how else can that conversation be explained? If he were planning to murder Dumbledore, either to please Voldemort or to avoid dying himself because of the Unbreakable Vow he'd hardly advertise his treachery to Dumbledore by having an argument about his willingness to fulfil his duties as an Order member, would he? If it's not about the Killing Dumbledore Plan, then what is it about?

I think they're arguing about Draco, personally. Dumbledore is relying on Snape to keep Draco from causing any harm to others, such as Katie Bell, and Snape feels he is "taking too much for granted". Dumbledore tells him to continue his efforts, and reminds him that the Bell incident gives him the excuse he needs to continue his investigations in his House. It fits, not that this proves anything, since we have such a small fraction of the dialogue. :grumble:

First off, I admit to being entirely too lazy to read all the posts before doing my own thing, so if I've stepped on anyone's toes, I'm so sorry. Just think of it as a compliment, or affirmation of your theory, after all, great minds think alike, right?

Snape, good or bad? Here, I see us fans as Darla from Finding Nemo, and the truth as the dead fish floating belly up in the bag... as Squirt said, "Mr. Fish, are you dead?" Well, one way or another, we'll know soon. The question is, do all drains REALLY lead to the ocean...

Ultimately, Severus Snape will be on the same side as any self-respecting Slytherin--the side that his information tells him is the winning side. We may not be capable of inferring which side this is by his attitude--clearly he feels the same disdain toward the Light (particularly any Potters or Marauders still running around) as he does toward LV's followers (ie Peter Pettigrew and Bella L.). He has few lengthy interactions in the books and the only characters who have been shown to evoke a response from him that cannot be denied are Dumbledore and Narcissa Malfoy (and Ron, Harry, and Neville, if we're talking about pure fury, but I'm not). We've never directly seen him obey or disobey LV, and I don't remember a scene in which we've even seen them together (though it is late and I could be forgetting something)... one could easily argue either side of that coin, though.

To me, the core of the thing is in his actions. We can only assume that serving LV is not always a treat, we know he tortures people for fun, he's a fella that gets what he wants. We know that Snape was actively mistreated by members of the Order (Sirius, cough cough, among others. Hey, Lily was the only one who stepped up.) And yet, he still looks out for their best interest (Potter).

The only loyalty he exhibits openly is under pain of death and part of me wants to say that Bellatrix had more to do with him making the Vow than Narcissa did, but who's to say. Mirror, mirror on the wall, he is a Slytherin after all. Snape is on his own side, the end. The optimistic among us would tend to say that he is on the side of the Light, though he is not a "good" person. The pragmatists among us would say, "Who would write a seven book series to kill off the hero and have the world she created plunge into darkness again?"

Whence this notion that Slytherins must be, at bottom, self-serving? It's never stated by the Sorting Hat. True, the portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black states (paraphrase) "Given a choice, we Slytherins will always choose to save our skins." I don't see why he should be considered an authority on the subject, though, as he apparently couldn't even get this right about his own great-great-grandson, Regulus Black.

I think Snape is good. Why I do not know for sure but something tells me he is. I think Dumlbedore knows what he is talking about. He may hate Harry but he has gone out of his way to make sure he is safe. I could be oh so wrong.

I have a strong theory Snape is GOOD. Correct me plz if im wrong, but I'm sure that Trelawney doesn't have any memories or recollection of predicting prophesies when she goes into to the trance and makes them. But if Dumbledore said Snape only heard half of the prophesy, then how come Trelawney knew he was there? This seems to suggest that Snape heard all of the prophesy, for Trelawney to recall seeing him there, but as Dumbledore told Harry, only told Voldemort half of the prophesy. This therefore suggests that Snape is innocent, and was really on the side of good.

Whence this notion that Slytherins must be, at bottom, self-serving? It's never stated by the Sorting Hat. True, the portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black states (paraphrase) "Given a choice, we Slytherins will always choose to save our skins." I don't see why he should be considered an authority on the subject, though, as he apparently couldn't even get this right about his own great-great-grandson, Regulus Black.

:lol: Good pick up, not only Reg, but Sirius as well :tu:

:lol: Good pick up, not only Reg, but Sirius as well :tu:
Thanks! Of course, Sirius was in Gryffindor, so he is supposed to be courageous...

i think she (meaning JKR) knows that everyone is suspecting he's good, so she wants to surprise us....don't u guyz?
i think even he's not good in the beginning, he will soon realize that wat he's doing is wrong. snape is not like voldemort. he's known comfort and he will not forget it.

I have a strong theory Snape is GOOD. Correct me plz if im wrong, but I'm sure that Trelawney doesn't have any memories or recollection of predicting prophesies when she goes into to the trance and makes them. But if Dumbledore said Snape only heard half of the prophesy, then how come Trelawney knew he was there? This seems to suggest that Snape heard all of the prophesy, for Trelawney to recall seeing him there, but as Dumbledore told Harry, only told Voldemort half of the prophesy. This therefore suggests that Snape is innocent, and was really on the side of good.Yes, that bugs me a bit as well. Has this 'mystery' been resolved already? I don´t have the books with me, but I think it was Aberforth who kicked Snape out of the Hog´s Head when the latter was trying to listen at the door, and later, when Trelawney was no longer in trance, he reported to DD and thus she would have heard it as well.

i think she (meaning JKR) knows that everyone is suspecting he's good, so she wants to surprise us....don't u guyz?
i think even he's not good in the beginning, he will soon realize that wat he's doing is wrong. snape is not like voldemort. he's known comfort and he will not forget it.JKR has plotted out her whole story about 15 years ago. While there have been minor changes, she would not change Snape´s storyline that late in the series. And I think she stays true to her story, to what she intended from the beginning. The question of Snape´s allegiance and his motives is one of the mysteries to be resolved in DH, and she has worked up to that point for years now.

And, welcome to the forums aod20048 and Balbulmaya

Thanks! Of course, Sirius was in Gryffindor, so he is supposed to be courageous...

:lol: Yeah, your right of course. What to you think about Sluggy, right at the end?

First let me remind you of my stance: I truly believe that Snape is an OotP member and acted on DD orders for many reasons that I stated before. But I do like throwing out other theories as well.

Is it possible... That Snape did not act on DD's orders, but did it to save Malfoy because his love that JKR spoke of was for Narcissisa, and didnt want her to suffer through the pain of losing a son? It fits. Why else would she run to Snape if they didnt have some kind of relationship? I could really believe that Snape was in love with Mrs. Malfoy at school and took the vow to help her, and maybe "get something" from her with her husband in the slammer

Is it possible... That Snape did not act on DD's orders, but did it to save Malfoy because his love that JKR spoke of was for Narcissisa, and didnt want her to suffer through the pain of losing a son? It fits. Why else would she run to Snape if they didnt have some kind of relationship? I could really believe that Snape was in love with Mrs. Malfoy at school and took the vow to help her, and maybe "get something" from her with her husband in the slammer

*coughfamilyfriendlyforumcough*

There did seem to be a prior relationship between Snape and Narcissa, but he's been a friend of the family for years, according to Draco, or Lucius's lapdog if you prefer Sirius's description ...

*coughfamilyfriendlyforumcough*

Indeed. Let's not venture into the realms of extramarital relationships. Thank you.

[QUOTE=anabel;4311609There did seem to be a prior relationship between Snape and Narcissa, but he's been a friend of the family for years, according to Draco, or Lucius's lapdog if you prefer Sirius's description ...[/QUOTE]


Narcissa herself claims he is a good frienmd of her husband's, as well.

Ther's another reason to run to Snape for help, though. He's on the spot, a teacher at Hogwarts, where Draco must carry out his mission. As far as we know, no other Death Eater meets that criterion. He's the only person to whom she can turn.

I think one of the main reasons to go to Snape is to check where his loyalties are.
Whatever he says to Bellatrix, Voldemort has his own agenda and he's not stupid. I don't think he OR Dumbledore trusted Snape blindly.
Dumbledore had a reason (probably that it was Snape who warned the Potters that Voldemort were after them), while Voldemort must also have had a reason, which we don't know yet.
I do think though that Voldemort, too, was wondering if Snape wasn't really as trustworthy as believed, and therefore maybe in one way or the other have given Narcissa the idea to ask Snape for the unbreakable vow, thinking that if he said yes he would have proven his loyalty, because he would then be forced to kill the man who was the only one who trusted him and wanted to give him shelter and a job, Albus Dumbledore.

I don't know though. It's impossible to say. No one knows how the Dark Lord thinks.

I believed for a while that Snape wasn't really evil but now I'm not so sure anymore. I mean, Snape is one of my least fave characters, but... I can't really make up my mind. I guess I'll have to wait and see...

I like to think that Snape is the one character who really is out for himself. Not necessarily good or bad, just doing what he has to to stay alive. Selfish, perhaps, but it definitely makes a refreshing change to the usual 'good versus evil' idea. Whether he will redeem himself for the apparent murder of Dumbledore is another matter.... Seeing as Harry needs closure on this, that is one thing about Snape I believe we will find out in due course.

Ther's another reason to run to Snape for help, though. He's on the spot, a teacher at Hogwarts, where Draco must carry out his mission. As far as we know, no other Death Eater meets that criterion. He's the only person to whom she can turn.
I think that has to be the main reason for Narcissa turning to Snape for help. Although obviously she knew him before that.

No, he couldn't refuse. It was vital for his cover to accept the vow. Yes, Bellatrix didn't expect him to, but that was precisely because she was still convinced he's not loyal to Voldemort. Remember, she's one of Voldemort's closest followers and having her convinced is vital. That was the only way to do that.
But Snape's cover (if he indeed has one) is that he's loyal to Voldemort, not Belatrix or Narcissa. By taking the Vow he was techincally intefering with Voldemort's plan, and putting Narcissa's wishes and Draco's welfare above Voldemort's plan to take revenge on Lucius by punishing Draco. Although Voldemort may (or may not) be pleased that Dumbledore is out of the picture, he's undoubtedly upset that Draco isn't dead, since that was apparently his plan. If Voldemort really wanted Dumbledore dead, he could have simply assigned that mission to someone more capable than Draco.

Also, Snape is not answerable to Belatrix or Narcissa, and doesn't have to explain anything to them, but only to Voldemort. Convincing Belatrix would have no effect on Voldemort's opinion of Snape, as he could probably care less about the infighting among his minions, or what they think of each other. Belatrix, like all the other Death Eaters, is simply someone for Voldemort to use. He has no friends, nor is he close to anyone.

Convincing Belatrix would have no effect on Voldemort's opinion of Snape, as he could probably care less about the infighting among his minions, or what they think of each other. Belatrix, like all the other Death Eaters, is simply someone for Voldemort to use. He has no friends, nor is he close to anyone.
I think, with all the backstabbing that was sure to go on among the various rivals, it would benefit Snape to keep on Bellatrix's right side - even more so if he really did have something to hide! :eyebrows:

I think, with all the backstabbing that was sure to go on among the various rivals, it would benefit Snape to keep on Bellatrix's right side - even more so if he really did have something to hide! :eyebrows:

I agree. If Snape is hiding something, it wouldn't be good to have Bellatrix whispering her suspicions, especially to Voldemort. Since he agreed to take the unbreakable vow, Bellatrix only suspects that he's trying to take her place as Voldemort's favorite. And Voldemort expects that sort of behavior from his followers.

But Snape's cover (if he indeed has one) is that he's loyal to Voldemort, not Belatrix or Narcissa. By taking the Vow he was techincally intefering with Voldemort's plan, and putting Narcissa's wishes and Draco's welfare above Voldemort's plan to take revenge on Lucius by punishing Draco. Although Voldemort may (or may not) be pleased that Dumbledore is out of the picture, he's undoubtedly upset that Draco isn't dead, since that was apparently his plan. If Voldemort really wanted Dumbledore dead, he could have simply assigned that mission to someone more capable than Draco.

There is the possibility that Snape was telling the truth, though: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think." If this is what Snape believes, then he knows that if he succeeds, he may well be forgiven a procedural irregularity such as the Vow. Also, if Voldemort wants to kill Draco, he can still do it as a punishment for his failure to (personally) kill Dumbledore. Which he might have had to do anyway. The death of Dumbledore in no way makes Draco safer from Voldemort if Voldemort decides he still wants Draco dead, it's really a separate issue. The question is, did Voldemort really want Dumbledore dead? I think the answer is, yes. He already tried to kill him personally, at the MoM.

Also, Snape is not answerable to Bellatrix or Narcissa, and doesn't have to explain anything to them, but only to Voldemort. Convincing Belatrix would have no effect on Voldemort's opinion of Snape, as he could probably care less about the infighting among his minions, or what they think of each other. Belatrix, like all the other Death Eaters, is simply someone for Voldemort to use. He has no friends, nor is he close to anyone.

Oh, I think Voldemort does follow the infighting of his minions. Let the minions dig up the dirt on each other, then Voldemort is warned when someone has become unreliable. This shuts Bella up from carrying whatever tales she was carrying that Snape refers to. It also shuts her up in the future. If Snape keeps an eagle eye on Draco for the rest of the year and tries to learn about what he is doing, there's an excellent explanation for why he is doing this - his life is on the line. Bellatrix won't be whining to Voldemort about it, at any rate. By becoming the Bonder, she has implicated herself at the same time.

But Belatrix is going to whisper her suspicions to Voldemort no matter what Snape tells her. And now Snape has given her some juicy ammunition.

Which would make Snape look better in Voldemort's eyes:

My Lord, that traitorous Snape has refused to take an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore!
to which Voldemort would probably reply:
Of course he refused, you silly girl! I have my own plans for Dumbledore, and if I feel you need to know about them, I will tell you.
or
My Lord, that traitorous Snape has taken an Unbreakable Vow which will meddle with your plans for my idiot nephew Draco!
to which Voldemort would probably reply:
How dare Snape meddle with my plans for Draco? Thank you for the information, dear Bela. Now excuse me while I go punish Snape for daring to interfere with my plans for your idiot nephew Draco.
I think the first one would make Snape look better in Voldermort's eyes.

And I agree with zgirnius that Snape was telling the truth about Voldemort intending him to do it in the end. I think he took the Vow because he really wanted to kill Dumbledore.

Bella: My Lord, that traitorous Snape has refused to take an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco kill Dumbledore!


Alternate response by Voldemort, eyes glowing redly:
This is a serious accusation, Bella. How do you know this?

Bella: Oops...

If Bella believes it was wrong for Snape, as a loyal Death Eater, to take the Vow, she should never have Bonded it, for that was equally wrong of her.

What I don't understand is why Snape would want to take an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, if killing Dumbledore was what he wanted to do. Could he possibly have anticipated how easy it would turn out to be? Why make it so that he must act when Draco fails, instead of leaving himself free to pursue the best opportunity?

Perhaps Snape didn't really know what was going on when Narcissa came to Spinner's End. I don't think he really knew about Voldemort's plan to kill Dumbledore but I do think that he knew about Draco and that Voldemort wanted to get one back at Lucius like he said. He was trying to bluff his way through most of the conversation and might have performed a little Occlumency on Narcissa which is why his hand twitched. He didn't want to go through with the UV but couldn't back out once it started. And no matter what he did Snape probably still would have ended up dead. If he didn't take the UV Bella would have snitched and Voldy would kill him, because Voldemort would look on it as loyalty to Dumbledore. If he took it and didn't complete it he would die. Now that he has completed it the Order and Harry will be after him but he at least has some chance of surviving, which is always better than none. Snape is a Slytherin and Slytherin's are all about self-preservation.

I have been re-reading my books.... and I just finished GOF ...again... and I noticed something that might give us a clue as to Snape's loyalties. The fake Moody tells Harry that the foe glass is important when you can see the whites of their eyes. Well, at the end of the book while "moody" is interigating Harry about the return of Voldy... Harry notices that he sees Dumbledore, McGonagall, and SNAPE immerging in the foe glass. Since it is being used by the FAKE Moody the people in the glass would be foes of crouch Jr's/Dark side... and when lumped together with McGonagall and Dumbledore it reallly looks like this might be clue from Jo that Snape is one of the good guys.

Curious to see what you think!

That's a good point, although it's also possible for Death Eaters to be foes of one another, for example Bella and Snape. Plus Snape appears to be playing both sides. But if it was Voldemort's foe glass we saw Snape in, that would defintely tell us Snape is against him.

What I don't understand is why Snape would want to take an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, if killing Dumbledore was what he wanted to do. Could he possibly have anticipated how easy it would turn out to be? Why make it so that he must act when Draco fails, instead of leaving himself free to pursue the best opportunity?
There could be a lot of reasons. Maybe Snape felt it was time to make his move. Maybe he had planned it with Voldemort. Whatever the reason, I just can't see Snape taking an Unbreakable Vow to kill a friend.

He didn't want to go through with the UV but couldn't back out once it started. And no matter what he did Snape probably still would have ended up dead. If he didn't take the UV Bella would have snitched and Voldy would kill him, because Voldemort would look on it as loyalty to Dumbledore.
That's where I disagree. By taking the Vow, Snape was meddling with Voldemort's plans for Draco. Vodemort wanted Draco to fail, to punish Lucius. By taking the Vow, Snape was disloyal to Voldemort.

Good point... just thought it was interesting... possible clue... but you are correct

I'm not sure how thoroughly canvassed what I am about to say has been in the earlier versions of this thread, simply because I cannot wade through something in the order of ten thousand posts to find out.

For me, Snapes hesitation at the start, when he is asked to make the unbreakable vow, is almost proof enough alone for me that he is in fact on Dumbledore's side. Not only that, but he describes it as being impossible to lie to Voldemort, describing him as "the most accomplished legilimens the world has ever seen."

In Book 5, Dumbledore says that "only those skilled in Occlumency can close their minds against him, and therefore utter falsehoods in his presence." and Lupin describes Snape as a "superb Occlumens." It would therefore theoretically be possible for Snape to lie to Voldemort.

Also, Snape's attempts to persuade Malfoy to tell him what he was up to in Book 6 seem extremely fishy to me: he seems a little too keen to impress upon Malfoy that he is on his side, and a little suspiciously desperate to find out what's happening.

Finally, when Dumbledore sees Snape, just at the very end, he says "Severus...please."
That to me is an almost unequivocally positive request, rather than a negative one. Dumbledore is begging Snape to kill him so that the plan can continue. Snape hesitates, yet more proof and finally, Dumbledore would only beg Snape to do it if he knew about the Unbreakable Vow, and that Snape therefore had no choice, which brings us full circle.

As I've said, I'm not sure if these exact same views have been presented before, but they are mine, so if anyone agrees, that's cool.

In Book 5, Dumbledore says that "only those skilled in Occlumency can close their minds against him, and therefore utter falsehoods in his presence." and Lupin describes Snape as a "superb Occlumens." It would therefore theoretically be possible for Snape to lie to Voldemort.

Actually, the line about lying to Voldemort is Snape's. He explains this to Harry in the course of Occlumency lessons in OotP. (Now, how would Snape know that...? ;) )

Finally, when Dumbledore sees Snape, just at the very end, he says "Severus...please."
That to me is an almost unequivocally positive request, rather than a negative one. Dumbledore is begging Snape to kill him so that the plan can continue.

There's also the timing of Dumbledore's pleading with Snape. He starts the moment Snape shows up. At this point, there's no indication Snape plans to betray him - all Snape has done was run up the stairs and stop to look around. If minutes ago Dumbledore trusted Snape completely, why would he suddenly ask Snape not to betray him?

There's also the timing of Dumbledore's pleading with Snape. He starts the moment Snape shows up. At this point, there's no indication Snape plans to betray him - all Snape has done was run up the stairs and stop to look around. If minutes ago Dumbledore trusted Snape completely, why would he suddenly ask Snape not to betray him?


I don't think it's viewed as DD thinking Snape will betray him, perhaps he was asking Snape to help him (I personally believe, as you do, that it was a plea for Snape to kill DD and prevent anyone else from being hurt, but I thought this might be a plausible reason that would make sense.)

I don't think it's viewed as DD thinking Snape will betray him, perhaps he was asking Snape to help him (I personally believe, as you do, that it was a plea for Snape to kill DD and prevent anyone else from being hurt, but I thought this might be a plausible reason that would make sense.)

Yes, but based on his actions that night and his oft-stated confidence in Snape, if Dummbledore wanted Snape's help there, he should have expected to get it. Yet he used a pleading tone of voice that was so unlike him, and so emotional, that Harry found it frightening.

But Snape's cover (if he indeed has one) is that he's loyal to Voldemort, not Belatrix or Narcissa. By taking the Vow he was techincally intefering with Voldemort's plan, and putting Narcissa's wishes and Draco's welfare above Voldemort's plan to take revenge on Lucius by punishing Draco. Although Voldemort may (or may not) be pleased that Dumbledore is out of the picture, he's undoubtedly upset that Draco isn't dead, since that was apparently his plan. If Voldemort really wanted Dumbledore dead, he could have simply assigned that mission to someone more capable than Draco.

But there's obviously more than what Snapes says. To me, it's evident he knows much more than Narcissa and Bellatrix know at that point. Remember, he was in on the plan, which shocked Bellatrix, because it was supposed to be a top secret plan. I think that at that point, Snape is Voldemort's most trusted, and the real secret is what they two have planned. So he may not be interfering with Voldemort's plan, but actually following it. Bellatrix and Narcissa are both in the dark.

Voldemort assigning the mission to Draco is also fishy. As Snape says, "He wants me to do it in the end."

I think we know too little about the circumstances involved in that scene to make very lekely guesses.


That's where I disagree. By taking the Vow, Snape was meddling with Voldemort's plans for Draco. Vodemort wanted Draco to fail, to punish Lucius. By taking the Vow, Snape was disloyal to Voldemort.

Snape cannot afford to be disloyal to Voldemort, whether he's good or evil. If that Unbreakable Vow meant disloyalty to Voldemort, Snape must have had a very good reason to make it. He must have had no other coice, basically - and he did have a choice - he could just refuse by explaining he can't go against the Dark Lord's orders. There will be no unfavourable consequences for him in this case - neither Bellatrix, nor Narcissa would go to Voldemort to complain. So he could have refused, but he didn't. And he did say that he was told of the plan and that he thought the Dark Lord meant for him to do it in the end. There are too many things behind the scenes which we are not aware of. We can't make conclusions, just guesses.

I don't see the benefit of making the Unbreakable Vow. At that point he had Voldemort's trust and was being included on the top secret plans. There's no need to gain any further trust.

I think he made the vow because the Malfoy's have always been his dearest friends.

I think he made the vow because the Malfoy's have always been his dearest friends.Yes, and as an added bonus the rich, wealthy pureblood family is now indebted to him.

The vow makes one thing certain: or Snape dies or Dumbledore dies.

If Snape is on Dumbledore’s side there is no profit in either scenario. If he is on his own side or on Voldemort’s side the vow is not that big anymore. The potential downside, Dumbledore’s death, is no longer a downside if Snape doesn’t care if Dumbledore lives or dies. If Snape expected that he would have to kill Dumbledore there is some additional risk by taking the vow, but not a lot, he had to do it anyway. And the bonus of having the Malfoy family indebted to him, of actually helping (in a twisted way) Draco and Narcissa in name of his friend Lucius, could well outweigh the negative aspect of having him to wait on Draco.

There are no benefits for having him kill Dumbledore or die himself if he is on Dumbledore’s side. All it could achieve are things which could be achieved without Dumbledore actually dying. And the things he potential achieves are not that important in Dumbledore’s eyes. For instance: Dumbledore thinks that those who believe that they are trusted by Voldemort are delusional; Voldemort trusts no one. Dumbledore would not lay down his life for results like that.

I haven't decided about Snape yet. However, would someone send me a private owl with some information I apparently missed. This is a missing piece for me to be able to offer an opinion because right now I'm leaning toward evil and always was evil. In which book and chapter did Snape and Dumbledore argue? Others have mentioned it happening in/near the forest and that Harry overheard it. This does not refresh my ancient memory, so please could ya give an old girl a hand.

The vow makes one thing certain: or Snape dies or Dumbledore dies.

I would say it is less than 100% clear what happens if Dumbledore convinces Draco to retire from Death Eating and hides him and Cissy more thoroughly than we could ever believe. Under such a hypothetical scenario, Draco is not 'fulfilling the Dark Lord's wishes', he is well protected, and he's not trying...can he 'fail'? We don't know. Snape may, since he is an expert in the Dark Arts. Certainly, the Vow permitted the possibility that under some circumstances, the choice would be Dumbledore or Snape. Then again, if Voldemort really does want Snape to do it in the end, this is already a real possibility.

One more piece of evidence that I came across while rereading Book 7 last night.

There's a point, I forget where, when (I think it's Hagrid) tells Harry that Dumbledore and Snape argued, about Snape "not wanting to do it." and Dumbledore said that he must.

This could be that Snape is saying that he doesnt want to spy on Malfoy any more, but that seems fishy because he's been desperately trying to get Malfoy to tell him what he's up to. It would also fit in with Dumbledore's pleas. Snape has already told him that he has been forced to make the unbreakable vow, but that he doesn't want to go through with it and would rather die himself. The Order needs someone like Snape on the inside, and so Dumbledore told Snape that he would have to do it. This would make Dumbledore's pleas at the end make even stronger evidence that Snape is really on their side.

I trust Severus Snape, as Hermione said "How many times have you suspected Snape? And when have you EVER been right?"

Yes, and as an added bonus the rich, wealthy pureblood family is now indebted to him.

The vow makes one thing certain: or Snape dies or Dumbledore dies.

If Snape is on Dumbledore?s side there is no profit in either scenario. If he is on his own side or on Voldemort?s side the vow is not that big anymore. The potential downside, Dumbledore?s death, is no longer a downside if Snape doesn?t care if Dumbledore lives or dies. If Snape expected that he would have to kill Dumbledore there is some additional risk by taking the vow, but not a lot, he had to do it anyway. And the bonus of having the Malfoy family indebted to him, of actually helping (in a twisted way) Draco and Narcissa in name of his friend Lucius, could well outweigh the negative aspect of having him to wait on Draco.

There are no benefits for having him kill Dumbledore or die himself if he is on Dumbledore?s side. All it could achieve are things which could be achieved without Dumbledore actually dying. And the things he potential achieves are not that important in Dumbledore?s eyes. For instance: Dumbledore thinks that those who believe that they are trusted by Voldemort are delusional; Voldemort trusts no one. Dumbledore would not lay down his life for results like that.

Yes, that does make sense. Another thing is that I don't think Snape had any idea Narcissa would be coming to Spinner's End and asking for an Unbreakable Vow. So Snape took it upon himself to make this magical contract that made Dumbledore's death inevitable. How could he just do that?

I don't really buy the scenario that Snape returned to Hogwarts and said to Dumbledore, Oh yeah, by the way Draco's going to be trying to kill you this year and if he fails I'm going to do it myself, hope that's ok.

I would say it is less than 100% clear what happens if Dumbledore convinces Draco to retire from Death Eating and hides him and Cissy more thoroughly than we could ever believe. Under such a hypothetical scenario, Draco is not 'fulfilling the Dark Lord's wishes', he is well protected, and he's not trying...can he 'fail'? We don't know. Snape may, since he is an expert in the Dark Arts. Certainly, the Vow permitted the possibility that under some circumstances, the choice would be Dumbledore or Snape. Then again, if Voldemort really does want Snape to do it in the end, this is already a real possibility.Sorry, maybe this has already been discussed, I´m so forgetful. Do we know, if there is a kind of time-limit to the Vow? I mean, when is the point in time that can be considered as 'Draco failed'. He lowered his wand on the tower, but there is still a theoretical possibility he could kill DD some time afterwards. I mean, Draco already failed twice. Once with the necklace, the second time with the poisoned meade. Still some time goes by until the incident on the tower. This question ties into the issue of DD and Snape planning for Draco and Narcissa to hide without DD killed or Snape dead from the Vow. Which I always thought to be a good possibility.

One more piece of evidence that I came across while rereading Book 7 last night.

There's a point, I forget where, when (I think it's Hagrid) tells Harry that Dumbledore and Snape argued, about Snape "not wanting to do it." and Dumbledore said that he must.

This could be that Snape is saying that he doesnt want to spy on Malfoy any more, but that seems fishy because he's been desperately trying to get Malfoy to tell him what he's up to. It would also fit in with Dumbledore's pleas. Snape has already told him that he has been forced to make the unbreakable vow, but that he doesn't want to go through with it and would rather die himself. The Order needs someone like Snape on the inside, and so Dumbledore told Snape that he would have to do it. This would make Dumbledore's pleas at the end make even stronger evidence that Snape is really on their side.
But Snape had no problem making the vow, when he agreed to the terms he knew what it meant. If he wasn't comfortable with killing Dumbledore then he wouldn't have made the vow, there was no reason to. So Snape arguing that he didn't want to kill Dumbledore doesn't make sense to me. Neither does Snape making the vow so that he would die.

By agreeing to the vow Snape is making the decision that either Dumbledore or himself will die. No matter how you look at it Snape is hurting the good side by making that vow. Dumbledore was very valuable to the good side and if Snape was a spy for the Order than he was also valuable.

Sorry, maybe this has already been discussed, I´m so forgetful. Do we know, if there is a kind of time-limit to the Vow? I mean, when is the point in time that can be considered as 'Draco failed'. He lowered his wand on the tower, but there is still a theoretical possibility he could kill DD some time afterwards. I mean, Draco already failed twice. Once with the necklace, the second time with the poisoned meade. Still some time goes by until the incident on the tower. This question ties into the issue of DD and Snape planning for Draco and Narcissa to hide without DD killed or Snape dead from the Vow. Which I always thought to be a good possibility.
The terms of the vow were that Snape would carry out the plan if Draco seemed like he was going to fail. The plan was for Draco to kill Dumbledore that school year. So if Dumbledore didn't die by the hands of Draco by the end of the school year the plan would be a failure and Voldemort would have likely killed Draco.

So to carry out the agreement made with the vow, Snape had to kill Dumbledore before school ended for the year. Or at least that's how I understand it.

The terms of the vow were that Snape would carry out the plan if Draco seemed like he was going to fail. The plan was for Draco to kill Dumbledore that school year. So if Dumbledore didn't die by the hands of Draco by the end of the school year the plan would be a failure and Voldemort would have likely killed Draco.

We don't know what exact orders Voldemort gave Draco, so we can't be sure of this. It is an unresolved issue whether the Vow has a time limit.

It is also possible that the condition placed on the first clause "as he attempts to carry out the Dark Lord's wishes" actually applies across the board. (If it does not, this implies that Snape in DH will still be bound by the second clause of the Vow, interestingly, since that clause is phrased without any limitations other than 'to the best of your ability'). If it does, on the other hand, then a decision by Draco to stop trying to carry out the Dark Lord's wishes would void all three clauses, leaving Snape free.

EDIT:
Regardless of what Snape's game is, swearing an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore is a big deal. He's the man Voldemort didn't manage to kill, the most powerful Light wizard, etc. I tend to think Snape wouldn't do it if he didn't think there might be a way to wiggle out of it. ONe way or the other, the twitch, the name of the chapter, and the aura of impending doom all suggest to me that the Vow was a mistake. Based on some reason that seemed sufficient, but in the end a mistake. (Snape's lack of glee at his remarkable success at the end also tends to support this, in my view).

We don't know what exact orders Voldemort gave Draco, so we can't be sure of this. It is an unresolved issue whether the Vow has a time limit.

It is also possible that the condition placed on the first clause "as he attempts to carry out the Dark Lord's wishes" actually applies across the board. (If it does not, this implies that Snape in DH will still be bound by the second clause of the Vow, interestingly, since that clause is phrased without any limitations other than 'to the best of your ability'). If it does, on the other hand, then a decision by Draco to stop trying to carry out the Dark Lord's wishes would void all three clauses, leaving Snape free.


I was assuming that it was part of the plan that it needed to be carried out that year. I'm basing this on the urgency Draco showed throughout the year.

'And should it prove necessary ... if it seems Draco will fail ...' whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), 'will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?'

Since there is a fair amount of canon that Draco was ordered to carry out the Dark Lord's deed that school year, Snape would die if he didn't. There's really no room to weasel out of it given the wording of the vow I posted above.

The only way that Snape wouldn't die at the end of the school year is if the orders didn't include a deadline for Draco to kill Dumbledore. But that's not the case as Draco's orders were to kill Dumbledore that year and Snape agreed that if Draco would fail he would carry out Draco's orders, which were to kill Dumbledore by the end of the school year.


I can't do it ... I can't ... it won't work ... and unless I do it soon ... he says he'll kill me
It's almost the end of the school year at this point and as you can see it must be done soon. Which indicates that the orders did include a deadline and that deadline was the end of the school year.

I was assuming that it was part of the plan that it needed to be carried out that year. I'm basing this on the urgency Draco showed throughout the year.
Draco starts to exhibit that urgency as the school year wears on. It may not have been an explicitly stated part of the task. In the summer, Voldemort might have just said, "Kill Dumbledore for me." And when Draco showed no signs of doing so, Voldemort might have said "I'm giving you till the end of the school year, then I will kill you and your family." So then the question is, does the Vow, which happened first, change because the orders have? Or is 'the task' just 'to kill Dumbledore'?

Draco starts to exhibit that urgency as the school year wears on. It may not have been an explicitly stated part of the task. In the summer, Voldemort might have just said, "Kill Dumbledore for me." And when Draco showed no signs of doing so, Voldemort might have said "I'm giving you till the end of the school year, then I will kill you and your family." So then the question is, does the Vow, which happened first, change because the orders have? Or is 'the task' just 'to kill Dumbledore'?
I think Voldemort would give him some type of time frame. Voldemort has plans and he wants them carried out. It's not like Voldemort is an easy going boss that gives you all the time you need.

Also, I think it's impossible to talk about a plan of killing someone and not bring up the question of when. Draco would have asked when he was to do it if Voldemort hadn't already specified. It's just a natural question to ask and a necessary one.

And I can't picture Voldemort saying take as much time as you need or within the next couple years. It seems more likely he would have said this year Draco and the sooner the better.

I think Voldemort would give him some type of time frame. Voldemort has plans and he wants them carried out. It's not like Voldemort is an easy going boss that gives you all the time you need.

I am not suggesting he is. I am suggesting he named no time frame at all in the summer, neither setting a deadline, nor suggesting Draco could take his time. He simply said "Kill Dumbledore", Draco said, "Yes, My Lord", and then Voldemort moved on to something else. Later (likely over Chirstmas break, when he would have easier access to Draco) he told Draco he was taking too long, and set the deadline.

But Snape had no problem making the vow, when he agreed to the terms he knew what it meant. If he wasn't comfortable with killing Dumbledore then he wouldn't have made the vow, there was no reason to. So Snape arguing that he didn't want to kill Dumbledore doesn't make sense to me. Neither does Snape making the vow so that he would die. But when Snape started to make the Vow, he couldn´t know Narcissa would ask him to fulfill Draco´s task in the third condition, could he? The first two conditions where about watching over Draco, protecting him from harm. Something, Snape would have done anyway, IMO. Snape did not expect the third condition, IMO, therefore his hand twitched, when Narcissa went on after the first two. That is the impression I get from it.

We don't know what exact orders Voldemort gave Draco, so we can't be sure of this. It is an unresolved issue whether the Vow has a time limit.I was mainly asking about the time frame, because of the clause of protecting Draco.

What ties into the whole time frame discussion is the fact that Snape was assigned with the post of DADA teacher. A position, Dumbledore knew, and a lot of other people suspected, was cursed. Both, Dumbledore and Snape knew that Snape would be leaving Hogwarts at the end of the school year. I don´t think that is coincidence. That was one of the things that made me think Snape has told Dumbledore about the Vow.

It is also possible that the condition placed on the first clause "as he attempts to carry out the Dark Lord's wishes" actually applies across the board. (If it does not, this implies that Snape in DH will still be bound by the second clause of the Vow, interestingly, since that clause is phrased without any limitations other than 'to the best of your ability'). If it does, on the other hand, then a decision by Draco to stop trying to carry out the Dark Lord's wishes would void all three clauses, leaving Snape free.I don´t think Draco could 'deactivate' so to speak the whole vow by making the decision to not carry out the Dark Lord´s wishes. The Dark Lord´s wish was clearly that Draco killed Dumbledore by hook or by crook. As I understand it, the moment Draco decided not to fulfill LV´s wish, he had failed. Exactly that happened on the tower. Draco lowered his wand, in that moment, he decided not to fulfill the Dark Lord´s wish, he failed, Snape killed Dumbledore.

Wether or not he is good or will redeem himself remains to be seen. Even if he does want and try to redeem himself I don't think he will ever work for the Order again. The people of the Order will never trust him again. I wonder if Dumbledore had him do this as a way of giving Harry some more passion for the fight he has left.

I wonder if Dumbledore had him do this as a way of giving Harry some more passion for the fight he has left.

Possibly, but I don't really think so. I think that it has more to do with Dumbledore not wanting anyone to die. It's definately a noble thing to do, so it would then be characteristic.

I wonder if Dumbledore had him do this as a way of giving Harry some more passion for the fight he has left.

I can't see DD doing something this manipulative.

Also, as he seems to care for Snape very much, and has tried to calm Harry's fears about Snape's loyalty on several occasions, I don't think he would make Snape do something so drastic just to psyche up Harry.

But Snape had no problem making the vow, when he agreed to the terms he knew what it meant. If he wasn't comfortable with killing Dumbledore then he wouldn't have made the vow, there was no reason to.

I disagree. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Snape had no problem making the vow. I think he suddenly and without warning found himself in a situation in which he either had to agree to make the vow or basically confirm all of Bellatrix's suspicions about him. After all there is no reason why he would hesitate to make the vow if he was truely an enemy of Dumbledore. To have tried to weasel out of it would have looked pretty suspicious. Also I believe that it is entirely possible that he could have believed (even if he was ultimately wrong) that Dumbledore could perhaps find some way out of this mess.

What ties into the whole time frame discussion is the fact that Snape was assigned with the post of DADA teacher. A position, Dumbledore knew, and a lot of other people suspected, was cursed. Both, Dumbledore and Snape knew that Snape would be leaving Hogwarts at the end of the school year. I don´t think that is coincidence. That was one of the things that made me think Snape has told Dumbledore about the Vow.

Bravo!! I have discussed this with friends as well. I think that it is very compelling evidence that Dumbledore knew that Snape would not be at Hogwarts the next year. Which begs the question, how did he know Snape wouldn't be at Hogwarts next year? The only explanation I can think of is that Snape told him about the vow.

I think that it is very compelling evidence that Dumbledore knew that Snape would not be at Hogwarts the next year. Which begs the question, how did he know Snape wouldn't be at Hogwarts next year? The only explanation I can think of is that Snape told him about the vow.

The other explanation, which I tend more towards, is that, even before Narcissa sprang the Vow on him, Snape had agreed with Dumbledore that he should kill (or appear to kill) him if the need arose.

Possibly because Dumbledore knew that he would spend the whole year hunting down deadly Horcruxes, possibly for other reasons, both he and Snape knew he would need this favour to be called in Harry's sixth year, so it would be OK to make Snape DADA master then.

This would also explain why Snape was able to remain relatively calm at Spinner's End and call Bellatrix's bluff with the Unbreakable Vow - he knew he was not promising to do anything that he hadn't already promised Dumbledore he would do.

My reasons for favouring this over the theory that Dumbledore agreed to sacrifice himself in order to save Snape from breaking a rashly performed Unbreakable Vow:

1. There's an exchange between Dumbledore and Snape at the end of GoF which seems steeped in hidden significance. Don't ask me to quote it , because my copy of GoF is (a) upstairs (b) not in English, anyway, but it's when they know for definite that Voldemort is back, and Dumbledore asks Snape if he is prepared to do the task they agreed. Most people think this refers to him rejoining the DE as a spy. I think it refers to killing Dumbledore when the need arises. I think they planned it as far back as then.

2. I can see plenty of ways that Snape could have wriggled out of the Unbreakable Vow without blowing his cover. Bellatrix herself insists that what Narcissa is doing is against the Dark Lord's orders. Snape could easily have taken that line to avoid helping Draco, and posed as a loyal DE who won't take on a job that Voldemort has assigned to another. Bellatrix would still have suspected him, but she'd have nothing more definite on him than before.

3. Snape's a highly intelligent man. He must know that the task that Voldemort has assigned to Draco isn't likely to be helping orphans and spreading world peace. If he is good (and for me, the conversation that Hagrid overhears is cast iron proof that he is), I can't see him swearing on his own life that he will commit any atrocity that Voldemort might have thrown at Draco without knowing what it is. What if it was murdering the entire Hogwarts studentship? opening a Pandora's Box similar to the Chamber of Secrets? Letting Fenrir Greyback into the Slytherin dormitory? As I see it, the only reason why he'd have sworn the Vow was because he knew what it was in advance and it fitted in with his plans.

4. Amazing though Dumbledore's humility is, I can't see even him agreeing to the Order losing him and his unbeatable magical powers at their hour of greatest need, just to save Snape (who, although a great wizard in his own right, is nowhere near as valuable to the Order as Dumbledore) from the consequences of a silly mistake. There must be a better reason, in my view, a way in which Snape killing Dumbledore will positively help the Order.

I dont know. I kinda still feel that Snape is good, however sometimes he kind of gives me the impression that he is actually playing both sides. To what end I have no idea. But the whole thing about his actions with Bella and Bellatrix.... I kinda believe the far fetched theory that it was a polymorphed DD, posing as Snape, using legilimensy to get memories from Wormtail. And while he was doing so he had a suprise visit from Bella and Bellatrix. For me that explaines his odd actions. Sorry for opening a new bag of worms on the whole vow issue.

:angel:

I disagree. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Snape had no problem making the vow. I think he suddenly and without warning found himself in a situation in which he either had to agree to make the vow or basically confirm all of Bellatrix's suspicions about him. After all there is no reason why he would hesitate to make the vow if he was truely an enemy of Dumbledore. To have tried to weasel out of it would have looked pretty suspicious. Also I believe that it is entirely possible that he could have believed (even if he was ultimately wrong) that Dumbledore could perhaps find some way out of this mess.

Dumbledore has proved himself through the series as Harry's savior. In EVERY situation where it looks like Harry will encounter the long arm of the law or any other trouble, Dumbledore has always been there, up till now. Part of me has to wonder if he's been doing the same thing for Snape since he switched sides (though there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he showed Snape any sort of favor while he was in school--which could support a "Snape switched sides" theory). This could also have added fuel to the "Snape hates Harry" fire--He (Snape) didn't want anybody else getting the same special treatment he was. I do think that Snape was having to play to Bellatrix, and that it was a worst-case scenario of being blindsided. And obviously, I think Snape is on the good side.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this or not. But I think that in the Order of the Phoenix we get undeniable proof that Snape is good. It's not anything cryptic he says but something that he does that is quite obviously designed to save Harry. In The Order of the Phoenix Harry tries to warn snape that "Snuffles is in the place that it's hidden". Harry then goes off with Hermoine and Umbridge and it leads to the confrontation with the Death Eaters at the Ministry. We later find out however that Snape contacted Lupin and the Order and told them that Harry might have gone to the Ministry. In effect Snape save Harry's life and his action led to the capture of many of the Death Eaters. Now if Snape was truly 'bad' he could have just ignored this and let the Death Eaters use Harry and then kill him. Why did he contact the order if he was a Death Eater. This act had one purpose and that was save Harry's life. Something that Snape has done or tried to do on several occasions even if Harry didn't realize it or if Snape's checkered past got in the way.

In The Order of the Phoenix Harry tries to warn snape that "Snuffles is in the place that it's hidden". Harry then goes off with Hermoine and Umbridge and it leads to the confrontation with the Death Eaters at the Ministry. We later find out however that Snape contacted Lupin and the Order and told them that Harry might have gone to the Ministry. In effect Snape save Harry's life and his action led to the capture of many of the Death Eaters.

I agree that evidence really doesn't get much stronger. It would have been just as simple (and there would have been no repercussions) if he simply said he didn't understand the message. This, along with Dumbledore's persistent asking exclusively for Snape during the last chapters of HBP (I believe Dumbledore was going to ask Snape to kill him right then, had Harry done as he was told and retrieved him) make me believe that Snape is on the good side.

But when Snape started to make the Vow, he couldn´t know Narcissa would ask him to fulfill Draco´s task in the third condition, could he? The first two conditions where about watching over Draco, protecting him from harm. Something, Snape would have done anyway, IMO. Snape did not expect the third condition, IMO, therefore his hand twitched, when Narcissa went on after the first two. That is the impression I get from it.

You're right he couldn't have known the third condition. On that very same note, he couldn't have known the first or second condition either. The exact wording by Snape was that he would, "help Draco". Narcissa then asked him to swear to it by making the Unbreakable Vow.

So all we really know is that Snape was willing to make an Unbreakable Vow to help kill Dumbledore.

I agree that evidence really doesn't get much stronger. It would have been just as simple (and there would have been no repercussions) if he simply said he didn't understand the message. This, along with Dumbledore's persistent asking exclusively for Snape during the last chapters of HBP (I believe Dumbledore was going to ask Snape to kill him right then, had Harry done as he was told and retrieved him) make me believe that Snape is on the good side. Snape didn't act very quickly when you consider everything that happened. He allowed enough time for the DE to get the prophecy from Harry. It was Harry's nerve that kept him alive as well as the help from his friends. If Snape wouldn't have acted at all it would have blown his cover, so really he had no choice.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this or not. But I think that in the Order of the Phoenix we get undeniable proof that Snape is good. It's not anything cryptic he says but something that he does that is quite obviously designed to save Harry. In The Order of the Phoenix Harry tries to warn snape that "Snuffles is in the place that it's hidden". Harry then goes off with Hermoine and Umbridge and it leads to the confrontation with the Death Eaters at the Ministry. We later find out however that Snape contacted Lupin and the Order and told them that Harry might have gone to the Ministry. In effect Snape save Harry's life and his action led to the capture of many of the Death Eaters. Now if Snape was truly 'bad' he could have just ignored this and let the Death Eaters use Harry and then kill him. Why did he contact the order if he was a Death Eater. This act had one purpose and that was save Harry's life. Something that Snape has done or tried to do on several occasions even if Harry didn't realize it or if Snape's checkered past got in the way.
Assuming for a moment that Snape is bad:
In order to keep his cover, he would need to inform the Order that Harry had gone to the Ministry. However he could plausibly wait quite a long time before doing so - and apparently he did! First there was the excursion into the forest, then the journey hundreds of miles south to London, then quite a long time spent finding the Hall of Prophecy and fighting Death Eaters, and then the Order came bursting in. I know it was essential for Harry and co to have time to experience all this before the adults came to their rescue, it's still hard to explain away why Snape waited so long before sending help. It was still dinnertime, around 5pm I think, when Umbridge captured the kids and Harry gave Snape his cryptic message. It was dawn when Harry returned to school, and that can hardly have been more than an hour or two after the Order arrived. So that's 6 hours at the very least in which Snape apparently did nothing. Was he under orders to allow the Death Eaters enough time to do their worst?

The question is : did it take so long for Snape to contact the order ? or did it take so long for the order to arrive (imagine where the kids could have gone, and find them) ?

The question is : did it take so long for Snape to contact the order ? or did it take so long for the order to arrive (imagine where the kids could have gone, and find them) ?
Surely "the place where it's hidden" is clear enough, considering that the Order have spent almost a year guarding "it"? And with the noise made by the pursuit and fighting, it can't have taken long for the Order members to find the right room! They came as soon as they knew, leaving Kreacher to inform Dumbledore about what had happened, and Dumbledore turned up a short while later. With 6 kids, including Harry, walking into a very dangerous trap at the Ministry, there was no reason to delay!

In order to keep his cover, he would need to inform the Order that Harry had gone to the Ministry.

I may have to reread that section of OOTP again but as I remember it I can't recall any reason that failing to inform the order would have blown his cover. If he had done nothing the deatheaters and the Dark Lord would have certainly killed Harry and everyone with him. Who would have been left to blow his cover? As for the delay, well that could be a significant point or it could just be JK giving Harry and his friends time to have a little adventure before the grown ups get involved. Only she knows which is the case.

I may have to reread that section of OOTP again but as I remember it I can't recall any reason that failing to inform the order would have blown his cover. If he had done nothing the deatheaters and the Dark Lord would have certainly killed Harry and everyone with him. Who would have been left to blow his cover? As for the delay, well that could be a significant point or it could just be JK giving Harry and his friends time to have a little adventure before the grown ups get involved. Only she knows which is the case.
Hmmmm. I suppose Snape could have pretended not to understand Harry's cryptic message. Dumbledore has a way of finding out about things though. I'm not sure. Someone should ask Jo whether the delay was significant or not, but I don't suppose we'll get an answer until after book 7.

I may have to reread that section of OOTP again but as I remember it I can't recall any reason that failing to inform the order would have blown his cover. If he had done nothing the deatheaters and the Dark Lord would have certainly killed Harry and everyone with him.
That would have been a big gamble on Snape’s part. He could not have known if all students would be killed. In fact he didn’t even know if they all left for the ministry. What if one of them had accepted Harry’s word and waited at the entrance? The deatheaters task was to retrieve the prophecy. Snape might have assumed that they would leave after reaching their objective. Following Voldemort’s orders and all that. Better be save then sorry for Snape.
And more people knew what Harry said in Umbridge’s office: Umbridge and the Slytherins present. Snape couldn’t know what Dumbledore, persuasive character as is shown, would find out.
This time gap may not be explained but it is a strange gap.
The other students had no trouble finding Harry in the middle of the forest, why couldn’t Snape?

Also, I don't think the Death Eaters were told to kill Harry. Voldemort wants to do that himself. Their mission was "just" to retrieve the prophecy.

I may have to reread that section of OOTP again but as I remember it I can't recall any reason that failing to inform the order would have blown his cover. If he had done nothing the deatheaters and the Dark Lord would have certainly killed Harry and everyone with him. Who would have been left to blow his cover? As for the delay, well that could be a significant point or it could just be JK giving Harry and his friends time to have a little adventure before the grown ups get involved. Only she knows which is the case. Harry's message to Snape was clear given Snape's knowledge. If Snape didn't inform the Order his cover would be blown as soon as Harry told Dumbledore what he had told Snape.

In HBP Snape takes credit for Sirius death. I don't see how he could do this if it wasn't true.

In HBP Snape takes credit for Sirius death. I don't see how he could do this if it wasn't true.
That particular argument doesn't hold water. Snape is a double agent, playing one master off against the other. Taking credit for things he didn't do and making himself look as good as possible in any given situation is the way he pulls it off! This doesn't mean that Snape didn't have a hand in Sirius's death, but we do actually know that all he did was taunt and provoke Sirius - although Harry blames Snape, Snape didn't force Sirius to go to the Ministry.

That particular argument doesn't hold water. Snape is a double agent, playing one master off against the other. Taking credit for things he didn't do and making himself look as good as possible in any given situation is the way he pulls it off! This doesn't mean that Snape didn't have a hand in Sirius's death, but we do actually know that all he did was taunt and provoke Sirius - although Harry blames Snape, Snape didn't force Sirius to go to the Ministry. But why would Snape lie about something when that lie can be proven false and blow his cover. For example, if Bella was to ask Voldemort what Snape provided that led to Sirius death. If Snape didn't do anything then wouldn't this potentially blow his cover? He must have done something that caused the events to unfold as they did.

But why would Snape lie about something when that lie can be proven false and blow his cover. For example, if Bella was to ask Voldemort what Snape provided that led to Sirius death. If Snape didn't do anything then wouldn't this potentially blow his cover? He must have done something that caused the events to unfold as they did.
It can't be proven, though. And there are witnesses to the fact that Snape taunted Sirius. But what Snape actually said, was that it was the information he provided that "helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

It can't be proven, though. And there are witnesses to the fact that Snape taunted Sirius. But what Snape actually said, was that it was the information he provided that "helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."So Snape did give information, not just taunts, that helped in Sirius’ disposal.

The information to which it could apply is that Harry is dreaming fervently about the corridor and the door or that McGonagall (the last order member outside Snape himself) left Hogwarts a mere hours before Voldemort sent Harry that vision. But Snape must have sent some useful information for him to make such a claim. What other possibilities are there for Snape sending information?
Just like the Emmeline Vance claim. Snape must have sent information which was useful for Voldemort or he wouldn’t be making claims like this. Hard to see sending information which ends in death as acts of loyalty, and equally difficult to think that it somehow isn't true or a good plan gone sour if we don't have any information on that.

I disagree, Staniw. 'Snape undercover' would make precisely the sort of claims listed in the text. If, for argument, we say that Snape was working for the Order, it is imperative that his actions be shown to the Death Eaters to be loyal to Voldemort, even when they appear to oppose him.

Note for example that Snape never claims credit for an actual kill, but for providing information. Note that his information is provided to Voldemort - so says Snape, if I recall correctly - not the Death Eaters, so that the sisters cannot contradict his claim. Note that Snape claims credit for things in the past, and does not point out any specifics of current operations which the sisters would recognize and be able to weigh.

As to Sirius, the small matter that in Snape's mind Sirius once planned to kill him [via Lupin as a werewolf] and used to bully him relentlessly, doubtless factored into their disagreements.

Note for example that Snape never claims credit for an actual kill, but for providing information. Note that his information is provided to Voldemort - so says Snape, if I recall correctly - not the Death Eaters, so that the sisters cannot contradict his claim. Note that Snape claims credit for things in the past, and does not point out any specifics of current operations which the sisters would recognize and be able to weigh.But I don’t think Snape would make claims to the sisters if they couldn’t stand scrutiny from Voldemort himself. Whatever Snape says it must be in his mind that this information can reach Voldemort, via Narcissa, Bella or Pettigrew.
Snape, as a double spy or as a loyal deathaeater and anything in between, is far too intelligent to lie about something which can and probably will be checked. Snape can lie about his motivations because there is no way of checking those. But if he says he has given information I feel it means just that: he has given information which led to the death of Emmeline Vance. Furthermore, should anyone ever get Voldemort over for tea and biscuits I have no doubt he will confirm this. Snape is far too intelligent to lie about checkable information, whatever side of the fence he is operating.

Staniw, I have a feeling that Snape is careful how he says things. He's gotten this far w/o readers knowing his loyalties, even in private moments. So the claims are double-edged, and no more "prove" his allegiance to Voldemort any more than what he reported to Dumbledore "proves" he is good.

We know just enough about what Snape has provided to Dumbledore (from OOtP, for example) to know he has passed information, but not necessarily whether it means what he says it does. We do also know that Voldemort makes assumptions. Voldemort assumed he had the whole prophecy, he assumed that Harry was the one named in the prophecy, Voldemort assumed that Lucius Malfoy understood his role in handling the diary, and Voldemort assumed that there was no way Harry could escape, let alone defeat him in a duel in GoF. So it's hardly a stretch that Voldemort would make assumptions regarding Snape's mind and word. Voldemort is suspicious enough to have Wormtail spy on Snape, yet allows Snape autonomy and obviously did not question Snape with the, hmm, aggressiveness he showed towards Lucius, Wormtail, and Rockwood in their cases - favor to Snape regardless of Snape's actions in PS/SS, for example, which indicates that Snape could get away with, if not lies, certainly an incomplete or half-truth. Personally, I see Snape's explanation to Bellatrix as a careful embellishment to what he had originally told Voldemort - he could get away with direct lying to Bellatrix, even though he was sure it would get to Voldemort through her, because 1-it would jibe with what he had told Voldemort, and 2-Snape himself would not be present for Voldemort to use his Legilimiens to test Snape's reaction, 3-it would be supported by what Snape had already been ordered to do by Dumbledore, and 4-it would force Voldemort to reach one of two conclusions, that he was right and Snape was completely loyal to him [supported by everything he knew about Snape], or that Voldemort was wrong and Snape was able to fool him. Given Voldemort's pride and track record, it would not be unreasonable to suspect Snape was playing Voldemort.

That's not proof, you understand, but it reminds us that Snape's words hardly prove he was evil, that he actually did what he claimed to have done.

Staniw, I have a feeling that Snape is careful how he says things. He's gotten this far w/o readers knowing his loyalties, even in private moments. So the claims are double-edged, and no more "prove" his allegiance to Voldemort any more than what he reported to Dumbledore "proves" he is good.
[...]
That's not proof, you understand, but it reminds us that Snape's words hardly prove he was evil, that he actually did what he claimed to have done.

I agree with you, Daelin. The thing is, that you can't tell whether Snape's good or bad because he plays to his advantages. It's just the perfect example of what Voldemort said: 'there is no good or bad, there's just power and those too weak to seek it'. Or something of the sort all the same. Now, I know that in this case this is just a villain's justification for all his evil deeds, but I think that Snape might be playing to that. He just goes with whichever side will make him a more powerful figure; the side which also happens to be stronger at the time, as you might've noticed.

Therefore, Snape has good reasons why to choose the information he reveals or not. If he is to switch constantly from one side to the other, then he can't give away too much information, so as to make the side he is on sure that he's with them without making them realise that he actually is in none. Neither theirs, nor the other one.

The other students had no trouble finding Harry in the middle of the forest, why couldn’t Snape?

As a practical matter, they left for the Miniustry at sunset, so the other kids started off maybe an hour before, no later. Snape would have started looking later (so, posibly after nightfall), probably when either 1) the Slytherins got away from the hexes/jinxes that were keeping them in Umbridge's office and reported what happened to Snape, or 2) when the Slytherins had been missing for so long that Snape went to Umbridge to investigate their disappearance. Harry being missing was not in intself a suspicious circumstance, as he was with Umbridge, who could, and did, keep students in detention until midnight when the mood took her.

The other kids left Umbridge's office in daylight, only minutes behinf Harry, and actually saw Harry, Hermione, Umbridge heading off into the Forest. They followed them, so they knew exactly where they entered the Forest, and which track they were following. They arrived just after Grawp chased off the Centaurs, so if they had taken a wrong turn, the noise would certainly have alterted them to their mistake. Snape had none of these advantages.

In HBP Snape takes credit for Sirius death. I don't see how he could do this if it wasn't true.

Um...it was Snape's reporting of Harry's activities that led to Sirius's death. If he had pretended not to understand Harry, Sirius would still be alive. Yet clearly, reporting Harry's activities to the Order was the pro-Order action.

But I don?t think Snape would make claims to the sisters if they couldn?t stand scrutiny from Voldemort himself. Whatever Snape says it must be in his mind that this information can reach Voldemort, via Narcissa, Bella or Pettigrew.
Snape, as a double spy or as a loyal deathaeater and anything in between, is far too intelligent to lie about something which can and probably will be checked. Snape can lie about his motivations because there is no way of checking those. But if he says he has given information I feel it means just that: he has given information which led to the death of Emmeline Vance. Furthermore, should anyone ever get Voldemort over for tea and biscuits I have no doubt he will confirm this. Snape is far too intelligent to lie about checkable information, whatever side of the fence he is operating. I completely agree. Another thing that makes me believe Snape was being truthful is that Bella doesn't argue either point and just accepts it as if it's true. And she was the one that was sceptical in the first place.

Um...it was Snape's reporting of Harry's activities that led to Sirius's death. If he had pretended not to understand Harry, Sirius would still be alive. Yet clearly, reporting Harry's activities to the Order was the pro-Order action. I don't think that is what Snape was referring to. Notifying the Order is not a good explanation of why he is loyal to Voldemort.

Just to tricky of a question to answere. Proving it one way or another is like proving or disproving a religion. On one had everything "bad" that snape has done can be provin away. On the othee hand everything good that snape has done has a shadow of doubt casted on it by the idea he is an opertunistic spy who would do anything to remain at his post(as stated by him). So ... I can't wait for the last book to come out.

If he is good
I hope Harry doesn't blast him away and find out he was telling the truth the whole time. Harry has a habit of finding stuff out after the fact

If he is bad
I hope Harry doesn't blast him away before Neville gets a peace of him. Neville has been tormented from day one and Snape is part of the reason he performs so poorly.

The question that comes to my mind is why didnt Dumbledore ever let him have the Defense Against the Dark Arts job? If Dumbledore had full faith in his man, why wouldnt he show it? He always prevented Snape from getting what he desired. Maybe DD knew Snape was a double agent against the order and was feeding him false information. Afterall he was still useful to a degree.

But then the other side of me still says maybe he killed DD for the good of the Order or the good of the world for that much. But he is reallllly deep undercover now if he is on the good side...

Too tough to call. I think we'll have to wait until July 21

I'm one of the few amongst my "Potter" friends who thinks that Snape is on the good side. Honestly, beneath his rotten exterior, he's done much in the way of helping Harry in the past 6 books.

I also believe that at the end of book six, when Dumbledore said "Please" before Snape "killed" him with his wand, it was Dumbledore's REQUEST to be killed (knowing that he'll be immortal and more help to Harry as a "spirit" instead of in his human, weakened condition). This may have been plotted before-hand between Snape and Albus.

On an assumption note, Snape is just too loathsome of a character to be discovered as a traitor to Dumbledore. It would come as no surprise, and would be too obvious of a choice.

Even though he killed Dumbledore, I still think he's good. I think his killing Dumbledore was a mercy killing, cause Dumbledore was in agony from the Pensive, though I don't think he let on as much as he did. I think with all the other ailments and wounds he was suffereing, Dumbledore unfortunately wasn't long for this world. Also I think he saw this coming or at least it may have been prophecied to him as apart of the Harry/Neville/Voldemort prophecy. I don't think we know the complete prophecy in whole...just the Harry/Voldemort part.

The question that comes to my mind is why didnt Dumbledore ever let him have the Defense Against the Dark Arts job? If Dumbledore had full faith in his man, why wouldnt he show it? He always prevented Snape from getting what he desired. Maybe DD knew Snape was a double agent against the order and was feeding him false information. Afterall he was still useful to a degree.

But then the other side of me still says maybe he killed DD for the good of the Order or the good of the world for that much. But he is reallllly deep undercover now if he is on the good side...

Too tough to call. I think we'll have to wait until July 21

Interesting... but i always believed that the reason DD didn't let Snape have the DA job was because it was cursed and he didn't want anything bad to happen to Snape. There is always the argument of why did he finally give him the job in the sixth book if he was worried about Snape's well being..... the only response I could give to that one would be "It will be revealed in book seven". Anyone else have an ideas on this... AKA did it give a reason in book six that I just over looked.

Interesting... but i always believed that the reason DD didn't let Snape have the DA job was because it was cursed and he didn't want anything bad to happen to Snape. There is always the argument of why did he finally give him the job in the sixth book if he was worried about Snape's well being..... the only response I could give to that one would be "It will be revealed in book seven". Anyone else have an ideas on this...

Sure. The effect of the curse is to make the holder of the position leave it. What if Dumbledore had reason to believe Snape was going to be leaving by the end of Book 6? Here are a couple of ideas why this might be.

This could happen if Snape told Dumbledore about the Vow, and they came up with a plan to deal with it together. (A number of such plans had been suggested - Dumbledore was already dying because of the black hand, and so they would make it look like NSpae killed him. Or, they would fake DD's murder - and the plan went wrong, and so on).

Or, this could happen if they had agreed that, now that the war was uinder way, Snape should be back with Voldemort, where he would be more useful as a spy to the Order. SInce, nbaturally, that would make Snpae less useful as a spy for Voldemort, the DADA curse would provide an excuse for why Snape had to leave Hogwarts.

... about that "Severus ... please" phrase which Dumbledore said to Snape ...

Isn' it possible that Dumbledore knew that Snape - being quite smart - would realize from the 2 broomsticks and the situation as a whole that Harry was there somewhere, and that instead of begging for mercy from Severus or for Severus to kill him, the plea was to protect Harry?

At the very least, this would explain Snape's look of revulsion.

... about that "Severus ... please" phrase which Dumbledore said to Snape ...

Isn' it possible that Dumbledore knew that Snape - being quite smart - would realize from the 2 broomsticks and the situation as a whole that Harry was there somewhere, and that instead of begging for mercy from Severus or for Severus to kill him, the plea was to protect Harry?

The way Rowling set up the scene, it would seem Snape could not protect Harry without killing Dumbledore. I guess the question is, did Dumbledore know that? I think so.

... about that "Severus ... please" phrase which Dumbledore said to Snape ...

Isn' it possible that Dumbledore knew that Snape - being quite smart - would realize from the 2 broomsticks and the situation as a whole that Harry was there somewhere, and that instead of begging for mercy from Severus or for Severus to kill him, the plea was to protect Harry?

At the very least, this would explain Snape's look of revulsion.
I agree. Draco noticed the 2 brooms immediately, I don't think Snape, being the consumate spy, could have missed such a detail. I'm certain he knew Harry was there.

I think some of his reaction could be a reflection of this knowledge. If it was indeed their plan for him to kill Dumbledore--he knows it will be more difficult to get the order to trust him after Harry witnessed the murder. Just a thought.

The question that comes to my mind is why didnt Dumbledore ever let him have the Defense Against the Dark Arts job? If Dumbledore had full faith in his man, why wouldnt he show it? He always prevented Snape from getting what he desired. Maybe DD knew Snape was a double agent against the order and was feeding him false information. Afterall he was still useful to a degree.


Also, do we really have solid canon evidence that Snape did indeed want the DADA job. The students say it in a rumor-mill sort of way, but don't you think this could have been another ruse used by Snape and Dumbledore so that Voldemort wouldn't think Snape was trusted too completely? So Snape would not be asked to 'push his luck' so to speak at Hogwarts--attempt to capture Harry or something?

Nowadays most of the people is saying that Snape is good and he killed Dumbledore because it was all previously planned. And I know that there are a lot of things that could indicate that this theory is true. For example, there is something that we still don't know which is key for Dumldedore's trust in Snape (and he trusted a lot in him). Anyway, there is something I can't understand:

Why did Rowling write the following in Book 6 if Snape's loyalty was with Dumbledore?

"Snape looked at fixedly to Dumbledore during a moment with revulsión and hatred marked in the lines of its face.

-- Severus... please...--

Snape raised his magic wand and aimed directly to Dumbledore.

-- ¡AVADA KEDAVRA!--"

What do you think?

Well I'm not really a member of either camp (Snape good or Snape bad) but has anyone really ever thought about the implications of killing someone in the wizarding world. It has been said this is one of the most evil crimes, only done by the darkest of wizards. It is such an evil act it damages the soul, allowing it to be torn in to pieces to create a horcrux if the wizard desires. My question though would be; given the calibur of wizard DD was, would he really condem Snape to this evil. Would/could he ask someone of his following to kill on his behalf. Tarnishing their soul forever. I know that he has asked Harry to destroy Voldy but we yet do not know if this involves him actually killing Voldy. I'm a firm believer in the theory that Harry will not simply outright kill Voldy. In other words just walk up to him and use the Advera Kavera ( I know I probably butchered the spelling). I feel it will be more of an indirect defeat of Voldy. Back to Snape.... So I don't think DD would ask Snape to outright murder him. It just wouldn't fit DD's style. Something definately went down that night, and I agree that DD is definately dead. But I am some what suspicous as to Snape actually being evil and killing DD. He may have done something different, something to help Harry in the future of book 7.

Also as to the wondering of the two brooms. Snape (unless he was totally distracted should have noticed the two brooms. However Snape has also shown the ability to almost (I emphasize almost) see/sense Harry even when he was under the invisibility cloak. I think he could have very well sensed Harry that night, and that it is very plausible DD was begining him to not reveal Harry. Whether on purpose or accident.

Well I'm not really a member of either camp (Snape good or Snape bad) but has anyone really ever thought about the implications of killing someone in the wizarding world. It has been said this is one of the most evil crimes, only done by the darkest of wizards. It is such an evil act it damages the soul, allowing it to be torn in to pieces to create a horcrux if the wizard desires. My question though would be; given the calibur of wizard DD was, would he really condem Snape to this evil. Would/could he ask someone of his following to kill on his behalf. Tarnishing their soul forever. ...So I don't think DD would ask Snape to outright murder him. It just wouldn't fit DD's style. Something definately went down that night, and I agree that DD is definately dead. But I am some what suspicous as to Snape actually being evil and killing DD. He may have done something different, something to help Harry in the future of book 7.
I agree that killing someone is an extremely serious and evil thing. However, it isn't done only 'by the darkest wizards'. They were at war for years before the night at Godric's Hollow--I'm almost certain that most Aurors and Order members have killed before. It's an ethical debate but killing to save the lives of others is moral IMO--if it's the choice between killing Voldemort and letting him live to kill hundreds or thousands more I think the choice is pretty clear.

Agreed that DD would not have created this plan as an excellent plan A--'Hey Sev, wouldn't it be a grand idea for you to kill me!'--yea, no. But, I think that if DD felt that his death could move events in a direction that would save lives and that circumstances were such that the only other choices would cause harm to their cause-->he would definitely ask for death from a wizard he believed strong enough to do it!


Also as to the wondering of the two brooms. Snape (unless he was totally distracted should have noticed the two brooms. However Snape has also shown the ability to almost (I emphasize almost) see/sense Harry even when he was under the invisibility cloak. I think he could have very well sensed Harry that night, and that it is very plausible DD was begining him to not reveal Harry. Whether on purpose or accident.
True, hadn't thought of that--begging him not to reveal Harry! That's a good thought. Snape is an extremely powerful wizard, just below DD and Voldy IMO and DD was able to see through the cloak--I don't think it's a far stretch to say he could sense him as well as deduce that he was there.

I agree that killing someone is an extremely serious and evil thing. However, it isn't done only 'by the darkest wizards'. They were at war for years before the night at Godric's Hollow--I'm almost certain that most Aurors and Order members have killed before. It's an ethical debate but killing to save the lives of others is moral IMO--if it's the choice between killing Voldemort and letting him live to kill hundreds or thousands more I think the choice is pretty clear.

Agreed that DD would not have created this plan as an excellent plan A--'Hey Sev, wouldn't it be a grand idea for you to kill me!'--yea, no. But, I think that if DD felt that his death could move events in a direction that would save lives and that circumstances were such that the only other choices would cause harm to their cause-->he would definitely ask for death from a wizard he believed strong enough to do it!
Dumbledore has his principles. There is no reason to believe that he changed his principles.
We are told in the first book that he would never resort to Voldemort's methods. Wouldn't that include not compelling a loyal order member to use an unforgivable curse, even to get a better vantage point for a spy?

By the way: we've seen numerous times that Snape can't detect Harry under the invisibility cloak, starting in the first book. Draco saw two brooms on an empty tower, Snape on a rather crowded tower. Snape knows that Harry has a firebolt, what he saw (if he did see the brooms) were two not school brooms and a bunch of deatheaters who had arrived at the school by for him unknown means. It would be more logical for him to think that the death eaters had arrived with those brooms. But what really clinches the idea that Snape didn't know Harry was there is his leaving: he leaves before the rest. If Snape knew Harry was there he would not have left an about to be unfrozen Harry with the the likes of Greyback.

Why did Rowling write the following in Book 6 if Snape's loyalty was with Dumbledore?

"Snape looked at fixedly to Dumbledore during a moment with revulsión and hatred marked in the lines of its face.



Perhaps for the same reason she also wrote this, one chapter earlier (emphasis added):


"...don't like...wamt to stop..." moaned Dumbledore.
"You...you can;t stop, Professor," said Harry. "You've got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here..."
Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside.


Because we are not told Snape's thoughts and feelings (we do get to read Harry's) we cannot know at who or what Snape's hatred and revulsion were directed. But it certainly could be at himself and the task Dubmledore was asking him to perform.

Well I'm not really a member of either camp (Snape good or Snape bad) but has anyone really ever thought about the implications of killing someone in the wizarding world. It has been said this is one of the most evil crimes, only done by the darkest of wizards.

There is a distinction which can be made between killing and murder. Killing a dying man, at that dying man's request, is quite different from a cold-blooded murder. In some places, it is even legal.

In HBP ("Horace Slughorn") Harry speaks of the possibility that Death Eaters might kill him, and of his resolve to take as many of them with him as he can. Dumbledore approves the sentiment. This shows he is not a strict pacificst who always opposes killing. He believes it is justified at least in a self-defense or war type situation.

Finally, Dumbledore's death on the Tower appears to have saved the lives of at least three people: Draco, Harry, and Snape. I believe he would be willing to die for that reason - so I believe he would be willing to ask someone else to help him achieve that goal.



It is such an evil act it damages the soul, allowing it to be torn in to pieces to create a horcrux if the wizard desires. My question though would be; given the calibur of wizard DD was, would he really condem Snape to this evil. Would/could he ask someone of his following to kill on his behalf. Tarnishing their soul forever. I know that he has asked Harry to destroy Voldy but we yet do not know if this involves him actually killing Voldy. I'm a firm believer in the theory that Harry will not simply outright kill Voldy. In other words just walk up to him and use the Advera Kavera ( I know I probably butchered the spelling). I feel it will be more of an indirect defeat of Voldy. Back to Snape.... So I don't think DD would ask Snape to outright murder him. It just wouldn't fit DD's style. Something definately went down that night, and I agree that DD is definately dead. But I am some what suspicous as to Snape actually being evil and killing DD. He may have done something different, something to help Harry in the future of book 7.

I think he could have very well sensed Harry that night, and that it is very plausible DD was begining him to not reveal Harry. Whether on purpose or accident.

Addressing Snape my first name, in a pleading tone that frightened Harry, was Dumbledore's instant reaction to Snape's appearance. If he trusted Snape as he claimed to, surely he would expect that Snpe would not reveal Harry's presence to a group of Death Eaters? The quickness and seeming desperation of Dumbledore's reaction suggests to me that he was asking for something he would not normally expect of Snape. This is why I don;t think hte pleading was either for his life or Harry's safety.

There is a distinction which can be made between killing and murder. Killing a dying man, at that dying man's request, is quite different from a cold-blooded murder. In some places, it is even legal.

In HBP ("Horace Slughorn") Harry speaks of the possibility that Death Eaters might kill him, and of his resolve to take as many of them with him as he can. Dumbledore approves the sentiment. This shows he is not a strict pacificst who always opposes killing. He believes it is justified at least in a self-defense or war type situation.

Finally, Dumbledore's death on the Tower appears to have saved the lives of at least three people: Draco, Harry, and Snape. I believe he would be willing to die for that reason - so I believe he would be willing to ask someone else to help him achieve that goal.

Exactly zgirnius, you expressed it much better than I did.

Perhaps for the same reason she also wrote this, one chapter earlier (emphasis added):


"...don't like...wamt to stop..." moaned Dumbledore.
"You...you can;t stop, Professor," said Harry. "You've got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here..."
Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside.


Because we are not told Snape's thoughts and feelings (we do get to read Harry's) we cannot know at who or what Snape's hatred and revulsion were directed. But it certainly could be at himself and the task Dubmledore was asking him to perform.


yes, maybe you are right but, in my opinion, it's clear that Snape is feeling repulsion and hate for Dumbledore, and not for killing him.

Perhaps for the same reason she also wrote this, one chapter earlier (emphasis added):


"...don't like...wamt to stop..." moaned Dumbledore.
"You...you can;t stop, Professor," said Harry. "You've got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here..."
Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside.


Because we are not told Snape's thoughts and feelings (we do get to read Harry's) we cannot know at who or what Snape's hatred and revulsion were directed. But it certainly could be at himself and the task Dubmledore was asking him to perform.



There is a distinction which can be made between killing and murder. Killing a dying man, at that dying man's request, is quite different from a cold-blooded murder. In some places, it is even legal.

In HBP ("Horace Slughorn") Harry speaks of the possibility that Death Eaters might kill him, and of his resolve to take as many of them with him as he can. Dumbledore approves the sentiment. This shows he is not a strict pacificst who always opposes killing. He believes it is justified at least in a self-defense or war type situation.

Finally, Dumbledore's death on the Tower appears to have saved the lives of at least three people: Draco, Harry, and Snape. I believe he would be willing to die for that reason - so I believe he would be willing to ask someone else to help him achieve that goal.



It is such an evil act it damages the soul, allowing it to be torn in to pieces to create a horcrux if the wizard desires. My question though would be; given the calibur of wizard DD was, would he really condem Snape to this evil. Would/could he ask someone of his following to kill on his behalf. Tarnishing their soul forever. I know that he has asked Harry to destroy Voldy but we yet do not know if this involves him actually killing Voldy. I'm a firm believer in the theory that Harry will not simply outright kill Voldy. In other words just walk up to him and use the Advera Kavera ( I know I probably butchered the spelling). I feel it will be more of an indirect defeat of Voldy. Back to Snape.... So I don't think DD would ask Snape to outright murder him. It just wouldn't fit DD's style. Something definately went down that night, and I agree that DD is definately dead. But I am some what suspicous as to Snape actually being evil and killing DD. He may have done something different, something to help Harry in the future of book 7.



Addressing Snape my first name, in a pleading tone that frightened Harry, was Dumbledore's instant reaction to Snape's appearance. If he trusted Snape as he claimed to, surely he would expect that Snpe would not reveal Harry's presence to a group of Death Eaters? The quickness and seeming desperation of Dumbledore's reaction suggests to me that he was asking for something he would not normally expect of Snape. This is why I don;t think hte pleading was either for his life or Harry's safety.


Nice. But I wasn't saying that DD wouldn't be willing to sacrifice himself. I'm sure he would happily sacrifice himself to save even one person, more or less the millions that are at stake. However I don't think he would ask Snape to kill him. Murder or mercy killing is still killing someone. If someone has been killed at someone elses hands they still die the same. That is why it is an unforgivable curse if unforgivable. I was just saying that is an awfully big favor to ask of Snape. I don't believe that even DD would kill Snape if the situations was reversed because of what it means in the wizarding world to kill. So I couldn't see DD expecting the same of Snape. As far as the self defence killing goes it is still killing. The only difference is that he would have no other choice other then to die himself. That still doesn't mean he wouldn't have tarnished his soul by killing the death eaters. But it was nessassary to survive. However alas this is all just my opinion, yours is no less valid than mine. So each to their own. :whistle:

i think he's a good guy.
i think that dumbledore knew things were about to fall to pieces, so that's why he gave him the dada job. he knew it was jinxed and that no one lasted more than a year, and yet he still gave it to him./

If Snape was good, he wouldn't have killed Dumbledore. To kill him just because Dumbledore told him to wouldn't make killing him okay. It was still an act of evil. Also, why would Dumbledore want to die when Harry needs so much help at the moment? I could talk for hours on this subject, but I decided to keep it short, for everyone else's sake.

To kill him just because Dumbledore told him to wouldn't make killing him okay.


Agreed. :tu: