Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v4

In your original posting, I had some discrepancies between this quote especially. In the top one (referrred to as Quote T) you point out that SS will "do good acts if it's for higher moral reason or at DD's request. Yet in your bottom quote (referred to as Quote Q) the scene that is taking place is SS killing DD. When comparing Quote T and Quote Q side by side, there is a level of contradiction present. If SS only acts if its for higher moral reason or at DD's request, the fact that he kills DD, even though DD pleads "Severus, please" (assumption that he is pleading), is very disproving of both.

I don't mean to step on toes but I don't believe this is a contradiction at all. As you point out we are working off of assumption; however, if we accept that Snape can "do good acts if it's for some higher moral reason or at DD's request" then we can easily expand that to include doing what appears on the surface to be bad/evil acts (taking the UV, stunning Flitwick, killing DD) 'if it's for some higher moral reason or at DD's request'. We simply don't know his motives.
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As far as trust goes, I agree that the trust on the side of the DE's is a different level of trust than that held by the Order. While the DE's trust is self-serving--trusting no one further than their next action--the trust of the Order is based on building a relationship of loyalty. However, most of the Order members only seemed to have a wary sort of trust in Snape. His dublicity wasn't expected, but it wasn't like finding out that Arthur Weasley was on Voldy's side. It was almost like a "Well, he's still a Slytherin" sort of attitude.

Here are some lines from Scarlet Pimpernel that are interesting (though what direction to apply them? ): :)
Just see how dreaming repays you
You turn and someone betrays you
Betray him first
And the game's reversed!
For we all are caught in the middle
Of one long dangerous riddle
Can I trust you? Should you trust me too?
And we're all alone in this hell
And we all have secrets to sell
And there comes a day when we sell our souls away!

If SS only acts if its for higher moral reason or at DD's request, the fact that he kills DD, even though DD pleads "Severus, please" (assumption that he is pleading), is very disproving of both.
It's widely assumed by those on the Snape good side that Dumbledore was not pleading for his life. Given Dumbledore's statements about death, and his nobility, and his general character, it would strike me as very uncharacteristic for Dumbledore to beg for his life. We also know that there was something Dumbledore wanted Snape to do, but Snape didn't want to do it, based on what Hagrid overheard. It's far from proven that Dumbledore was pleading for his life and in fact most of us on the good side believe that Dumbledore must have ordered Snape to kill Dumbledore if a situation like that on the tower ever arose.

Here are some lines from Scarlet Pimpernel that are interesting (though what direction to apply them? ): :)
Just see how dreaming repays you
You turn and someone betrays you
Betray him first
And the game's reversed!
For we all are caught in the middle
Of one long dangerous riddle
Can I trust you? Should you trust me too?
And we're all alone in this hell
And we all have secrets to sell
And there comes a day when we sell our souls away! I really like this book. The Scarlet Pimpernell led a double life, kind of like Clark Kent and Superman. I think you are right to compare this period of time, the French Revolution, when people were risking their lives and it was hard to tell what side some people were on, with this double life that Snape seems to have led.

It's widely assumed by those on the Snape good side that Dumbledore was not pleading for his life. Given Dumbledore's statements about death, and his nobility, and his general character, it would strike me as very uncharacteristic for Dumbledore to beg for his life. We also know that there was something Dumbledore wanted Snape to do, but Snape didn't want to do it, based on what Hagrid overheard. It's far from proven that Dumbledore was pleading for his life and in fact most of us on the good side believe that Dumbledore must have ordered Snape to kill Dumbledore if a situation like that on the tower ever arose.
I do believe the same holds true for those who are on the not loyal Snape side as well. The first time I read it I thought about Snape, don’t do this to yourself and to us, kind of et tu Brute feeling when he realised that Snape had betrayed him.

But the argument on the Snape is good side puzzles me. Usually the argument goes like this: Dumbledore won’t plead for his life so he pleads to be killed.

First: almost nobody ever claims Dumbledore pleads for his life but, more important, if Dumbledore didn’t plead for his life why would it mean he pleads to be killed? There are many other options which seem more likely to me. The do not do this to yourself and/or protect Draco from Voldemort’s clutches seem equally or more appropriate.

And I have more “logistically” problems with this interpretation as well. If there was some sort of deal, or standing orders or something like that, why would Dumbledore plead? If there was any kind of planning involved there was nothing Snape had done which could mean that Snape wouldn’t keep his side of the bargain. If Dumbledore was planning to be killed by Snape there was nothing Snape had done till that time which could indicate that Snape wasn’t going to do just that, so why plead? Pleading in those scenarios only make sense if Snape was apparently planning on not killing Dumbledore. How could Dumbledore know at that time that Snape wasn’t about to fulfil his wishes? Premature pleading only gives the plan away, precisely what so many on the Snape is good side presume. Rather silly to plead in those circumstances; better see what Snape is planning to do. He didn’t immediately attack the deatheaters, so Dumbledore could have waited to see what Snape was up to.

Another point is that begging and pleading often occur after someone has done something which you want to change. What did Dumbledore see: Snape arriving alone (without the order) and not on his orders. These events caused Dumbledore to plead; this is not what he wanted.

There may or may not have been a deal between Dumbledore and Snape. But we know there are two other things Dumbledore wanted: protect the students and separate Draco and his family from Voldemort. Did Snape’s arrival alone, without the order, help in any of those two objectives? Did Snape’s actions after the murder help in those objections? He took Draco with him and didn’t look behind him in the castle to see what the other deatheaters were doing. It was the Felix and Harry which saved Ginny, not something Snape did. That’s not protecting students.

Once again we see Snape not doing what Dumbledore wanted where we know what Dumbledore’s wishes were. That’s not the sign of a loyal to Dumbledore Snape.

And I have more “logistically” problems with this interpretation as well. If there was some sort of deal, or standing orders or something like that, why would Dumbledore plead? If there was any kind of planning involved there was nothing Snape had done which could mean that Snape wouldn’t keep his side of the bargain. If Dumbledore was planning to be killed by Snape there was nothing Snape had done till that time which could indicate that Snape wasn’t going to do just that, so why plead? Pleading in those scenarios only make sense if Snape was apparently planning on not killing Dumbledore. How could Dumbledore know at that time that Snape wasn’t about to fulfil his wishes?
Ah, but there is. The standard 'it was all planned' Snape is good theory holds that this was discussed in the argument in the Forest. And thus, Snape informing Dumbledore he took too much for granted, and maybe Snape didn't want to do it, was in reference to the killing of Dumbledore, so Dumbledore did not have reason to expect Snape wold carry out his wishes.

And thus, Snape informing Dumbledore he took too much for granted, and maybe Snape didn't want to do it, was in reference to the killing of Dumbledore, so Dumbledore did not have reason to expect Snape wold carry out his wishes.
So when Dumbledore told Snape flat out he had agreed to do it and that was all there was to it Dumbledore still had no reason to expect Snape would carry out his wishes? A direct order by Dumbledore to Snape still doesn’t give Dumbledore a reason to expect that Snape would carry out his wishes? That doesn’t seem likely to me. I think Dumbledore would expect that a direct order would be carried out and only pleads (or even use stronger words) when a direct order is disobeyed. But first a wait and see approach if Snape indeed didn't intend to cary out a direct order. And since Snape didn't attack the deatheaters Dumbledore had no reason to think Snape wouldn't. Indeed, if Snape was unwilling to kill Dumbledore one might ask what Snape was doing there, not attacking the deatheaters and not planning to kill Dumbledore.

By the way I read this forest discussion about trailing Draco. Makes sense in the whole conversation, the attitude of both Snape and Dumbledore and the chapter in it was revealed.

Dumbledore trusted Snape, a lot. He knew that Draco was trying to kill him and that his feeble attempts had almost resulted in the deaths of two innocent students. Dumbledore would not want to see any more students injured, or even killed, by another attempt. Snape was the head of Draco's house. Draco always respected Snape. There was also a friendship between the Malfoys and Snape. Dumbledore had every reason to think that Snape should be both willing and able to get Draco to stop his attempts.

Snape was failing at the task of getting Draco to confide in him, listen to his advice, or accept his help. In light of the vow, this had to be a super big problem for Snape. He had no control of something that his life depended on.

Here we have a frustrated Dumbledore - frustrated that he couldn't get Draco under control. We also have a frustrated Snape, frustrated that he couldn't get Draco under control, either. Snape would rather eat slugs than admit failure to Dumbledore.

I think the fight in the forest was Dumbledore reminding Snape that he promised to get Draco under control, and Snape shouting back that he didn't want to do it, rather than admit that Draco had shut him out.

The canon to back this up would be Hagrid's comment - page 406 - HBP - US ed:
"An then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothing strange abou' that!" Hagrid added hastily, as Harry and Hermione exchanged looks full of meaning. "All the Heads o' Houses were asked ter look inter that necklace business - "

By the way I read this forest discussion about trailing Draco. Makes sense in the whole conversation, the attitude of both Snape and Dumbledore and the chapter in it was revealed.

That is how I read that argument as well, a point on which we agree! ;) However, the reading I mentioned above is the one favored by posters who believe there was a plan to kill Dumbledore all year. It is one of the big pieces of evidence they see for their theory.

Personally, I think Dumbledore was pleading because he was afraid Snape would decide to jump into action in some way, and he wanted both Snape's life and cover preserved. Since I don't believe that Snape and Dumbledore had any idea what would be happening that night, I don't believe that Snape was violating any orders by showing up when he did. It is my reading of Dumbledore's conversation with Draco that Snape was under a standing order to keep an eye on Draco, so that his showing up where Draco is located would indicate he was following, rather than disobeying, an order.

The indications that the fight in the forest was about Dumbledore's attempts to stop Draco before he killed a student are numerous. The clues that this conversation had something to do with Dumbledore forcing a person to become a murderer, especially a person who had already taken a vow to do so and wouldn't have to be forced, seem a little vague.

Dumbledore was the Headmaster. He took his job of protecting these children very seriously. It is one thing to have someone acting in a way that only endangers you. But to have someone acting in a way that endangers innocent children is a serious matter.

This conversation between Hagrid and Hermione and Harry occurs just after they leave the hospital. They had been visiting Ron. He was lucky to be alive after drinking the poison mead.

There are just too many hints that this refers to the protection of innocent students. It is not like Dumbledore to try and take away the free will of someone.

Something to consider in trying to determine whether Snape is good or bad is the business of the death of Emmeline Vance. Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa that he provided Voldemort the info that led to the death of Emmeline Vance.

To a person who believes that Snape is bad, this proves their theory, given that if Snape were good he would have tipped off Dumbledore and they would have set up an ambush for the Death Eaters sent to kill Vance. I think we can assume that Dumbledore would never have sacrificed Vance just to let Snape seem loyal to Voldemort.

A person who believes that Snape is good would probably say that Snape made his involvement up to gain the trust of Bellatrix and that Voldemort got the info on Emmeline Vance from some other source.

I don't know if this have been discussed, but I think I found a very strong evidence in the book 6 that shows the real loyalty of Snape.

Snape has been lying to Voldemort

When in the beginning of the book six Bellatrix was doubting about Snape's real loyalty, she asked him why he didn't tell where the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix were. Snape answered that he couldn't know that because he isn't the Secret Guardian. Snape lied there. As revealed by J. K. Rowling on her website on February 21 2006:

"When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else."

Thus, no one whom Dumbledore did not invite inside will be able to enter

In conclusion, Snape knows where the headquarters of the Order are and he didn't tell to Voldemort.

Dumbledore was the Headmaster. He took his job of protecting these children very seriously. It is one thing to have someone acting in a way that only endangers you. But to have someone acting in a way that endangers innocent children is a serious matter.

While this evaluation of Dumbledore's character is 100% on target as far as I am concerned, there is nothing in the conversation that refers to danger to innocent children. And the conversation occured long after the Katie Bell incident, and before the Ron Weasley incident, which makes it oddly timed.

This conversation between Hagrid and Hermione and Harry occurs just after they leave the hospital. They had been visiting Ron. He was lucky to be alive after drinking the poison mead.
This is true, and I used to consider this conclusive evidence myself. However, the conversation in the Forest occured the night before any of that happened.

There are just too many hints that this refers to the protection of innocent students. It is not like Dumbledore to try and take away the free will of someone.

Asking Snape to do something, whether it is to protect innocent students from Draco, kill Dumbledore, or brew up a new batch of PepperUp Potion for Madam Pomfrey, does not take away Snape's free will, because Snape can refuse any and all of these requests. I do believe "Severus, please" was a request by Dumbledore that Snape kill him.

I don't know if this have been discussed, but I think I found a very strong evidence in the book 6 that shows the real loyalty of Snape.

Snape has been lying to Voldemort

When in the beginning of the book six Bellatrix was doubting about Snape's real loyalty, she asked him why he didn't tell where the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix were. Snape answered that he couldn't know that because he isn't the Secret Guardian. Snape lied there. As revealed by J. K. Rowling on her website on February 21 2006:

"When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else."

Thus, no one whom Dumbledore did not invite inside will be able to enter

In conclusion, Snape knows where the headquarters of the Order are and he didn't tell to Voldemort.
I happen to agree that Snape lied to Bellatrix and to Voldemort, but not about Grimmauld Place. As your quote says 'no one whom Dumbledore did not invite inside will be able to enter' because Dumbledore is the secret keeper. Snape was/is not physically able to tell where the headquarters are, only the secret keeper could say. This was how Peter Pettigrew was able to betray the Potter's, he couldn't tell their location until they made him secret keeper. He knows the information but is not able to share it.

Asking Snape to do something, whether it is to protect innocent students from Draco, kill Dumbledore, or brew up a new batch of PepperUp Potion for Madam Pomfrey, does not take away Snape's free will, because Snape can refuse any and all of these requests. I do believe "Severus, please" was a request by Dumbledore that Snape kill him.But why would Dumbledore ask Snape to do it?

Do you think Dumbledore knew at this point in the story that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him?

Maybe someone can help me to understand the logic of this, because I seem to be missing a step here;
1. if it is assumed that there was an agreement between Dumbledore and Snape that Snape would kill Dumbledore if necessary
2. Snape entered into the agreement of his own free will
3. Snape took the unbreakable vow of his own free will
4. then why are they fighting in the forest?

Snape can't change his mind about the vow, he is stuck with it. Why is Dumbledore yelling at Snape to do it?

Do you think Dumbledore knew at this point in the story that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him?
Absolutely! Dumbledore said that he knew about what Draco was doing all year long. Dumbledore clearly trusted Snape and thus would have discussed Draco and this mission with him. Dumbledore is as good if not better at Occlu/Legilimency as Voldemort & Snape and I HIGHLY doubt Snape could have hidden such an enormous secret from him.

As has been stated, it would be highly out of character for a very old wizard, who has been gravely injured (several times), who has expounded on the great adventure of death, and who has spent the last several months pouring every bit of applicable wisdom into 'the chosen one' (almost as a last testament) would beg for his life from someone he trusted.

EDIT:
Why is Dumbledore yelling at Snape to do it?
We don't know what Dumbledore was yelling at Snape to do. It could have been any number of things, not necessarily about killing him. For example, he could have been encouraging Snape to tell Draco about his true loyalties or something, believing Draco would come over to their side, etc.

I have it... The senario for the final scene. Harry becomes vulnerable, and Voldemort is ready to strike. Snape, finally showing his loyalty takes the AK curse dying and sacrificing himself for Harry. Once again Harry has the power that Voldmort knows not... love loyalty. Snapes sacrifice will sheild Harry. When Voldemort is finished with Snape he turns to Harry AK's him and once again it rebounds and he is killed this time without any Horcruxes left... FIN

I think that the books hold a lot of hints about Snape in its similiarities between him and Wormtail. When we see Snape’s Worst Memory, we see three people who died defending Harry and two people who became Death Eaters. What if the ultimate ending has five of these six people dying to defend Harry? Wormtail has a life debt to Harry, so I see him becoming one of them. Snape has acted in a way that would suggest that he would also join the group of people who died to defend Harry, or at the least, die in an effort to bring about Voldemort’s destruction.

Here are some of the things I find similar between Snape and Wormtail:
- Both of them became Death Eaters – Snape was attracted by the same things Voldemort was, power and opportunity to do the things they were very skilled at. Wormtail liked friends who were more powerful than him, but he may have been more motivated by fear than by the lure of power.
- Both of them betrayed the Potters
- Both of them were able to leave Voldemort – Wormtail by disguising himself as a rat, pretending he was dead, he was able to avoid Vapormort and the remaining Death Eaters.
- Wormtail returned to Voldemort out of fear – fear of what would happen to him once it was found out that he was alive after all. Voldemort thinks that Snape returned to him to continue to spy for him. His true role is a little unclear.
- Both of them were put together in Spinners End by Voldemort. I believe he has them spying on each other, since I don’t think Voldemort really trusts either of these former classmates of the Potters.
- Both of them can redeem themselves for the crime of betraying the Potters by acting for Harry at the end.

This ultimate redemption would be the way they earn forgiveness for the past. Both of them would be viewed as good in the end.

I think that the books hold a lot of hints about Snape in its similiarities between him and Wormtail. When we see Snape’s Worst Memory, we see three people who died defending Harry and two people who became Death Eaters. What if the ultimate ending has five of these six people dying to defend Harry? Wormtail has a life debt to Harry, so I see him becoming one of them. Snape has acted in a way that would suggest that he would also join the group of people who died to defend Harry, or at the least, die in an effort to bring about Voldemort’s destruction.

Here are some of the things I find similar between Snape and Wormtail:
- Both of them became Death Eaters – Snape was attracted by the same things Voldemort was, power and opportunity to do the things they were very skilled at. Wormtail liked friends who were more powerful than him, but he may have been more motivated by fear than by the lure of power.
- Both of them betrayed the Potters
- Both of them were able to leave Voldemort – Wormtail by disguising himself as a rat, pretending he was dead, he was able to avoid Vapormort and the remaining Death Eaters.
- Wormtail returned to Voldemort out of fear – fear of what would happen to him once it was found out that he was alive after all. Voldemort thinks that Snape returned to him to continue to spy for him. His true role is a little unclear.
- Both of them were put together in Spinners End by Voldemort. I believe he has them spying on each other, since I don’t think Voldemort really trusts either of these former classmates of the Potters.
- Both of them can redeem themselves for the crime of betraying the Potters by acting for Harry at the end.

This ultimate redemption would be the way they earn forgiveness for the past. Both of them would be viewed as good in the end.

Bravo, Bravo SusanBones111 :clap:!! You make some very good points there about how Wormtail and Snape are alike... I can't wait to see how it turns out in book 7 ;)!!

Bravo, Bravo SusanBones111 :clap:!! You make some very good points there about how Wormtail and Snape are alike... I can't wait to see how it turns out in book 7 ;)!!
Thanks. Harry needs all the help he can get. I can't wait until July 21st either.

I don't think that he's good, and I don't think that he would come back now, even if the Order would accept him. I think that in a way, he will redeem himself. He has offered Harry some very good advise in the past, and it would be smart of Harry to use it, no matter how much he hates Snape.

Thanks. Harry needs all the help he can get. I can't wait until July 21st either.
No problem, I agree he needs all of the help he can get, even if it's help from unexpected sources ;). Neither can I... does anyone here have a time machine? :p :lol:

No problem, I agree he needs all of the help he can get, even if it's help from unexpected sources ;). Neither can I... does anyone here have a time machine? :p :lol:

Well...I used to have a time turner, but then I lent it to Hermione and she never returned it ;). Can't trust mudbloods nowadays, can you? :grumble: :p

Well...I used to have a time turner, but then I lent it to Hermione and she never returned it ;). Can't trust mudbloods nowadays, can you? :grumble: :p

Yep, I guess we can't... :p :lol:

Back on topic - I certainly hope that Snape will turn out to be on the Order's side...

I don't think Snape is good but I think he will come to the good side. He is not pure evil like Voldemort and Bellatrix.

But what exactly makes you think he is evil? what did he do that shows it?

I think that the thing that makes Snape turn evil is when Voldemort turned and killed Lily Potter. If you remember, in OoTP, the chapter where Harry visits Snape's memory, Lily takes up for Snape and dosen't laugh with James and Sirius and the others while they torture him. This makes Snape fall in love with Lily. Now, when Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow, he gave Lily a chance to run away. I think this is because Snape asked him to not kill her, just kill Harry, and James if he wanted too... ( we all know the rivalry between Snape and James). When Voldemort came back after killing the Potters, he told Snape that Lily sacrifced herself for Harry. Now this made Snape hate Voldy, because he knew Voldemort didn't have to kill her. Then, he made a choice to rebel agaisnt Voldemort by being Dumbledore's spy. He told Dumbeldore this, and this is why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much.

I also agree Snape's been LYING to Bellatrix and Narcissa. He had to convince them he's a Death Eater. Plus Bellatrix was sitting on pins and needles waiting for him to say something to indict himself. She was itching to be able to point her finger, go to Voldemort and say Snape is STILL a Turn Coat. However, I agree he knew where Grimwauld Place was. Remember he told Harry about Occlumency @ Grimwauld Place and started fighting with Sirius Black.

When Voldemort came back after killing the Potters, he told Snape that Lily sacrificed herself for Harry. Now this made Snape hate Voldy, because he knew Voldemort didn't have to kill her. Then, he made a choice to rebel agaisnt Voldemort by being Dumbledore's spy. He told Dumbeldore this, and this is why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much.

This contradicts Dumbledore's account of Snape's 'return'. In GoF, Dumbledore (in the Pensieve memory Harry sees of Igor Karkaroff's hearing) testifies that Snape turned before the fall of Voldemort and spied for Dumbledore 'at great personal risk'. The Potters were still alive at this point. Dumbledore says in HBP that Snape experienced great remorse when he realized how Voldemort had intrepreted the prophecy. (Meaning, I presume, when Voldemort decided he needed to kill Harry Potter and his parents).

Now, if the danger to Lily was the reason he was so upset about it, I certainly agree that her murder would have made Snape that much more eager to help defeat Voldemort.

I don't think Snape is good but I think he will come to the good side. He is not pure evil like Voldemort and Bellatrix.

I agree that he is very far from being like Voldemort and Bellatrix. Snape almost always seems to do the right thing, be it saving Harry from a nasty fall from his broomstick in PS, or alerting the Order that Harry had gone to the Ministry in OotP. It is very, very obvious that he loathes and abhors Harry, yet he still does the right thing by him again and again. I think Snape deserves all the more credit for this, because it is so clearly against all his natural inclinations when it comes to Harry!

But the argument on the Snape is good side puzzles me. Usually the argument goes like this: Dumbledore won’t plead for his life so he pleads to be killed.
Every set of actions for Snape revolves around killing Dumbledore or not, right? Anything Dumbledore might directly be pleading for, it amounts to either asking Snape to kill him or asking Snape to help him. I think it's completely out of character for Dumbledore to ask Snape to help Dumbledore, so the alternative is he's asking Snape to kill him. I don't think it's so much that he wants to die as that it's better for him to die than the alternative, in which Snape certainly dies from the vow (possibly even before he can attack any Death Eaters?), Draco is punished (and Narcissa too?) for failing to finish Dumbledore, and the Death Eaters stick around Hogwarts (fighting and endangering other students), and Dumbledore probably dies anyway.

The do not do this to yourself and/or protect Draco from Voldemort’s clutches seem equally or more appropriate.
Given the situation, killing Dumbledore is the best thing Snape can do to protect Draco from Voldemort. There's no more opportunity to fake Draco's death. If Snape appears on the scene and kills Dumbledore, Voldemort might be satisfied, and let Draco get away with saying he still hadn't made up his mind or something.

If there was any kind of planning involved there was nothing Snape had done which could mean that Snape wouldn’t keep his side of the bargain. If Dumbledore was planning to be killed by Snape there was nothing Snape had done till that time which could indicate that Snape wasn’t going to do just that, so why plead?
Take Harry as an example. Harry's very loyal to Dumbledore, that much is irrefutable. And Harry accepted Dumbledore's order to do whatever Dumbledore told him in the cave, leave and save himself if Dumbledore so ordered, etc. Then, when they actually got to the cave, Harry hesitated before forcing Dumbledore to drink the potion. Dumbledore had to remind Harry to do what Dumbledore said, even though it would hurt Dumbledore.

Pleading in those scenarios only make sense if Snape was apparently planning on not killing Dumbledore. How could Dumbledore know at that time that Snape wasn’t about to fulfil his wishes?
It also makes sense if Snape was planning on killing Dumbledore, but had expressed doubts about his willingness to do it and might have trouble following through when it came down to actually killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore doesn't have to KNOW that Snape isn't going to fulfill his wishes, he just has to suspect that Snape is considering not fulfilling his wishes.

Another point is that begging and pleading often occur after someone has done something which you want to change.
It does?

There may or may not have been a deal between Dumbledore and Snape. But we know there are two other things Dumbledore wanted: protect the students and separate Draco and his family from Voldemort. Did Snape’s arrival alone, without the order, help in any of those two objectives? Did Snape’s actions after the murder help in those objections? He took Draco with him and didn’t look behind him in the castle to see what the other deatheaters were doing. It was the Felix and Harry which saved Ginny, not something Snape did. That’s not protecting students.
His primary protectee there is Draco, and hurrying out with Draco is the best move for Draco. Snape also told the other Death Eaters to leave, which does help everyone else as well. What could he have done to help the good guys more? Let Draco run out alone and stay to fight on the side of the Order against the Death Eaters? That would blow his cover as a spy and wouldn't have kept any more Order members or kids alive. More may have been injured or killed in a prolonged battle, and in particular Bill and Neville were wounded and could possibly have died from their wounds if they weren't treated soon. They wouldn't be able to get treatment until the battle was over.

Once again we see Snape not doing what Dumbledore wanted where we know what Dumbledore’s wishes were. That’s not the sign of a loyal to Dumbledore Snape.
Once again, it depends on the reader's interpretations of what Dumbledore would want.

Do you think Dumbledore knew at this point in the story that Snape took an unbreakable vow to kill him?
Absolutely, and I see no evidence to believe otherwise. Harry told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow and Dumbledore made it pretty clear that he knew more about the Vow than Harry did. It's possible he didn't know the part about Snape finishing the task if Draco failed, but there's no particular reason to think that's the case when it's pretty clear that he knew all along that Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore.

Maybe someone can help me to understand the logic of this, because I seem to be missing a step here;
1. if it is assumed that there was an agreement between Dumbledore and Snape that Snape would kill Dumbledore if necessary
I think so, yes. Largely because of Snape saying that he always thought the Dark Lord meant Snape to do it in the end anyway.

2. Snape entered into the agreement of his own free will
Yes, I think so.

3. Snape took the unbreakable vow of his own free will
Yes, I think so, though I don't think he was happy about it. I think he would want to put it off as long as possible and hoped Voldemort would die before it came up.

4. then why are they fighting in the forest?

Snape can't change his mind about the vow, he is stuck with it. Why is Dumbledore yelling at Snape to do it?
Sure he can. He can change his mind and die. It's not a good or enviable choice, but it's a choice. If Snape is truly subtly noble and on Dumbledore's side, etc, it's reasonable to think that he's considering letting himself die to save Dumbledore even though Dumbledore thinks Snape is more valuable that Dumbledore or something.

Thank you for taking the time to answer a question that I posed earlier.

It's possible he (Dumbledore) didn't know the part about Snape finishing the task if Draco failed, but there's no particular reason to think that's the case when it's pretty clear that he knew all along that Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore. I would like to provide one piece of canon that I feel indicates that Dumbledore did not know all along that Draco planned to kill him. The conversation in the forest occurred a few days before the poisoned mead event.
page 406 - HBP - US ed:
"An then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothing strange abou' that!" Hagrid added hastily, as Harry and Hermione exchanged looks full of meaning. "All the Heads o' Houses were asked ter look inter that necklace business - " Why would all the heads of household be asked to look into that necklace business if Dumbledore knew that Draco was the guilty one? And, if Dumbledore knew all along that Snape would complete Draco's task if Draco failed, then why would he have been talking to the other heads of household at all?

I will agree that by the time they get to the Tower, Dumbledore knew that Draco was trying to kill him. I am not sure when or how he found out.

I think that, though he acts evil, Snape is good. He killed Dumbledore because he read DD's mind, and that's what DD said? I don't know. I also have to think about the whole 'Snape meant it, or else it couldn't have worked,' thing. I still think he is good, for some reason. I think, even if he is bad, in the end, he will end up fighting with Harry, or saving him, or something like that...but I think, also, in the end, he will die..good or bad.

Why would all the heads of household be asked to look into that necklace business if Dumbledore knew that Draco was the guilty one? And, if Dumbledore knew all along that Snape would complete Draco's task if Draco failed, then why would he have been talking to the other heads of household at all?

I will agree that by the time they get to the Tower, Dumbledore knew that Draco was trying to kill him. I am not sure when or how he found out.
Interesting point, but I disagree. I'll look for the quote, but Dumbledore tells Draco that he knew all along that it was Draco, right? And Dumbledore explains to Draco on the tower that he couldn't show suspicion of Draco because that would put Draco in danger from Voldemort. That's why Dumbledore didn't confront him before, he says he had to wait for Draco to make his move.

Every set of actions for Snape revolves around killing Dumbledore or not, right? Anything Dumbledore might directly be pleading for, it amounts to either asking Snape to kill him or asking Snape to help him.
No, there are other possibilities: Draco, the students, the Wizarding World, etc. Dumbledore's pleading may have had nothing to do with himself.

I think it's completely out of character for Dumbledore to ask Snape to help Dumbledore, so the alternative is he's asking Snape to kill him. I don't think it's so much that he wants to die as that it's better for him to die than the alternative, in which Snape certainly dies from the vow (possibly even before he can attack any Death Eaters?), Draco is punished (and Narcissa too?) for failing to finish Dumbledore, and the Death Eaters stick around Hogwarts (fighting and endangering other students), and Dumbledore probably dies anyway.
There's no reason to think Snape would die from the vow if he didn't kill Dumbledore right then and there. Draco had already failed twice before, but Snape didn't drop dead. So there's no reason that Draco's failure at the Tower would be any different. As long as he's alive, Draco is free to continue his attempts at killing Dumbledore, and that may have been the reason Dumbledore waited for Draco to act, so that he could convince him to go into hiding. As long as Draco went on his own accord, he would still be free to attempt to kill Dumbledore, and Snape lives. But if Dumbledore forced Draco into hiding, Draco would be a prisoner and not able to act freely. This makes a lot more sense than Dumbledore simply asking Snape to kill him if Draco fails yet again, since it would be unnecessary. It would be better to have all three of them alive.

I think that the books hold a lot of hints about Snape in its similiarities between him and Wormtail. <snip>

This ultimate redemption would be the way they earn forgiveness for the past. Both of them would be viewed as good in the end.

IMHO, the major difference is that Wormtail is a remorseless mass murderer and mass betrayer. And a lot of those crimes weren't even done on LV's orders, but purely for selfish reasons. I saw no repentance from Wormtail in the books so far, nor any hint that he might be working to atone for his crimes. On the contrary, I saw him murder a kid, kidnap Bertha (which led to her horrible death), ressurect Voldy and help Voldy with his preparations to ax Harry as well. Granted, if he does consciously sacrifice himself for Harry at some point it would count in his favor. But would it make him good? Not IMHO.

OTOH, if Snape is DD's man, then he has been working against LV and his followers for over one-and-half decades, and when Voldy himself was around in the flesh, at great personal risk. According to DD, whatever his past crimes, Snape regretted them and tried to atone for them. If he ends up dying for Harry, it will be the culmination of a long, hard struggle to fix his early mistakes, not a spur of the moment/lifedebt enforced thing which is the most that we can expect from Wormtail.


page 406 - HBP - US ed:

"An then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothing strange abou' that!" Hagrid added hastily, as Harry and Hermione exchanged looks full of meaning. "All the Heads o' Houses were asked ter look inter that necklace business - "
Why would all the heads of household be asked to look into that necklace business if Dumbledore knew that Draco was the guilty one? And, if Dumbledore knew all along that Snape would complete Draco's task if Draco failed, then why would he have been talking to the other heads of household at all?

Concerning Hagrid's quote, we are dealing with a broken phone game here. Hagrid tried to avoid listening to the conversation, and what he ended up hearing he could easily misconstrue. For instance, was Snape supposed to make inquiries in his "House" or in his "house" ;)? Did DD actually mention "Slytherin", or was it just Hagrid's (mis)interpretation? My guess would be that DD was talking about Draco's helpers and that he could have meant Wormtail as well as some random Slytherins. Because since Draco had an alibi for the Necklace incident, it was clear that he had somebody else working for him.
As to why DD was talking to the other Heads of Houses - he had to go through the motions. He could hardly tell them that he knew what was going on and that he intended to let it continue. Also, JKR said that we will see people connected to the DEs in the other Houses, so it would have been rather narrow-minded and counter-productive to look for Draco's possible helpers exclusively in Slytherin.

Re: DD's pleading. It never made sense to me that after DD reiterated his complete trust of Snape on the immediately previous pages, after he ordered Harry to tell Snape what happened and bring him and him alone to the tower, he'd suspect that same Snape of betrayal the second he showed up. Because, DD started to plead with Snape immediately after he appeared on the Tower. SS didn't do anything suspicious at this point and gave no hint of his intentions. So, why would DD start pleading with him before there was any reason to suspect treachery?

Just want to add something abut the revaling of Snape's loyalties. I believe they have not been revealed yet. Some of you suggested that the actual revelation was the murder of Dumbledore and Snape will not play a very significant part from now on, since he has been revealed. I believe otherwise. The murder was not a revelation - because we were shown "evil Snape" before that - at the very beginning of the book. We were shown Snape explaining his loyalty to Voldemort to a Death Eater in a very convincing fashion, leaving no doubt about his ambiguous actions. So the final murder can's really be viewed as a revelation. Snape has been shown being as evil as it gets and in the beginning of the book, too. That's why I find it very hard to believe that he will indeed turn out a faithful Voldemort's follower, for whatever reason. The revealing of his motivations and who's he working for is yet to come in DH and since the author did a very good job in convincing us that Snape is evil and showing him in two situations that leave no doubt about how he's working for Voldemort, I don't think this will just be repeated in DH. There is much more about Snape coming, and it would show him ina whole different light, I believe.

the author did a very good job in convincing us that Snape is evil .She has appeared to have done a very good job of convincing people that Snape is good, too.

IMHO, the major difference is that Wormtail is a remorseless mass murderer and mass betrayer. And a lot of those crimes weren't even done on LV's orders, but purely for selfish reasons. I saw no repentance from Wormtail in the books so far, nor any hint that he might be working to atone for his crimes. On the contrary, I saw him murder a kid, kidnap Bertha (which led to her horrible death), ressurect Voldy and help Voldy with his preparations to ax Harry as well. Granted, if he does consciously sacrifice himself for Harry at some point it would count in his favor. But would it make him good? Not IMHO.
I agree, Wormtail really hasn't shown any sort of repentance whatsoever, so I'm not sure what Dumbledore meant about his owing a life debt to Harry. I see no reason why Pete will suddenly change his stripes in Deathly Hallows.

Concerning Hagrid's quote, we are dealing with a broken phone game here. Hagrid tried to avoid listening to the conversation, and what he ended up hearing he could easily misconstrue.
This is very true, and makes me want to toss out the conversation altogether when it comes to evidence about Snape's motives etc. We simply don't know what the heck they were talking about, but can only guess.

Also, JKR said that we will see people connected to the DEs in the other Houses, so it would have been rather narrow-minded and counter-productive to look for Draco's possible helpers exclusively in Slytherin.
She really said that? Interesting. :relax:


Just want to add something abut the revaling of Snape's loyalties. I believe they have not been revealed yet. Some of you suggested that the actual revelation was the murder of Dumbledore and Snape will not play a very significant part from now on, since he has been revealed. I believe otherwise. The murder was not a revelation - because we were shown "evil Snape" before that - at the very beginning of the book. We were shown Snape explaining his loyalty to Voldemort to a Death Eater in a very convincing fashion, leaving no doubt about his ambiguous actions. So the final murder can's really be viewed as a revelation. Snape has been shown being as evil as it gets and in the beginning of the book, too. That's why I find it very hard to believe that he will indeed turn out a faithful Voldemort's follower, for whatever reason. The revealing of his motivations and who's he working for is yet to come in DH and since the author did a very good job in convincing us that Snape is evil and showing him in two situations that leave no doubt about how he's working for Voldemort, I don't think this will just be repeated in DH. There is much more about Snape coming, and it would show him ina whole different light, I believe.
Perhaps Spinners End is the revelation and Snape's murder of Dumbledore is the confirmation. Snape did appear to live up to the picture he painted of himself at his house. Also, the fact that JK Rowling named the book after Snape would seem to indicate that we're finally seeing the real deal.

Just want to add something abut the revaling of Snape's loyalties. I believe they have not been revealed yet. Some of you suggested that the actual revelation was the murder of Dumbledore and Snape will not play a very significant part from now on, since he has been revealed. I believe otherwise. The murder was not a revelation - because we were shown "evil Snape" before that - at the very beginning of the book. We were shown Snape explaining his loyalty to Voldemort to a Death Eater in a very convincing fashion, leaving no doubt about his ambiguous actions. So the final murder can's really be viewed as a revelation. Snape has been shown being as evil as it gets and in the beginning of the book, too. That's why I find it very hard to believe that he will indeed turn out a faithful Voldemort's follower, for whatever reason. The revealing of his motivations and who's he working for is yet to come in DH and since the author did a very good job in convincing us that Snape is evil and showing him in two situations that leave no doubt about how he's working for Voldemort, I don't think this will just be repeated in DH. There is much more about Snape coming, and it would show him ina whole different light, I believe.I agree with you on this, Yoana. There is still a whole lot more that we don't know about him yet... for the most part we only know him from Harry's point of view, with the exception of Spinner's End - if it was him and not Dumbledore impersonating him - but talk about that is for another thread ;)...

I would like to provide one piece of canon that I feel indicates that Dumbledore did not know all along that Draco planned to kill him. The conversation in the forest occurred a few days before the poisoned mead event.
page 406 - HBP - US ed:

Quote:
"An then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothing strange abou' that!" Hagrid added hastily, as Harry and Hermione exchanged looks full of meaning. "All the Heads o' Houses were asked ter look inter that necklace business - "

Why would all the heads of household be asked to look into that necklace business if Dumbledore knew that Draco was the guilty one? And, if Dumbledore knew all along that Snape would complete Draco's task if Draco failed, then why would he have been talking to the other heads of household at all?
Dumbledore was talking about the necklace specifically - and that's why the other Houses might be involved.

Katie got the necklace from a woman's restroom at the Three Broomsticks, but at the time, Dumbledore didn't know who gave it to Katie. Later he discovers it was Madame Rosmerta herself.

We don't know the house of her friend, Leanne, who was with her.

JKR has said that there could be DE children in other Houses besides Slytherin, and I think that's what Dumbledore was checking up on.

Dumbledore was talking about the necklace specifically - and that's why the other Houses might be involved.

Katie got the necklace from a woman's restroom at the Three Broomsticks, but at the time, Dumbledore didn't know who gave it to Katie. Later he discovers it was Madame Rosmerta herself.

We don't know the house of her friend, Leanne, who was with her.

JKR has said that there could be DE children in other Houses besides Slytherin, and I think that's what Dumbledore was checking up on.
Do you think that Dumbledore thought that the necklace incident was unrelated to Draco's task or that he didn't know about the task?

Do you think that Dumbledore thought that the necklace incident was unrelated to Draco's task or that he didn't know about the task?
Based on the conversation between Draco and Dumbledore on the tower, I don't think either option is the case. I think Dumbledore knew it was an attempt by Draco to kill him, but didn't know who Draco had used (and probably only had a guess as to how) to do it.

Re: DD's pleading. It never made sense to me that after DD reiterated his complete trust of Snape on the immediately previous pages, after he ordered Harry to tell Snape what happened and bring him and him alone to the tower, he'd suspect that same Snape of betrayal the second he showed up. Because, DD started to plead with Snape immediately after he appeared on the Tower. SS didn't do anything suspicious at this point and gave no hint of his intentions. So, why would DD start pleading with him before there was any reason to suspect treachery?
Dumbledore can be quit sharp. The moment he took you, I knew - and I followed." One action of Croody was enough for Dumbledore to know the truth, so it is not unprecedented that the same happened here.

So what did Snape do to cause Dumbledore to suspect Snape of betrayal? He showed up alone and did not attack the deatheaters. That was enough for Dumbledore.

Dumbledore heard the fighting downstairs, he knew the fighting was continuing, he knew his order was still trying to get through and yet Snape arrived alone. Dumbledore knew, and frankly it is not that astonishing that Dumbledore knew at that time. After all: the fight downstairs was still going on and Snape had not helped his order.

He knew that he hadn’t ordered Snape to arrive alone. Keeping his spy status? More important then protecting students and helping his order to protect students? It is telling that McGonagall and Lupin thought that Snape would help with the fight, his spy status notwithstanding. Were they correct in assuming that a loyal Snape would and should help them in the fight or did Dumbledore not warn them that they shouldn’t call Snape or do anything that gave his spy status away? That would be remarkable stupid thing for Dumbledore to do and I don’t think Dumbledore is that stupid. If McGonagall thought it logical that Snape would help in the fight with the deatheaters it is very much conceivable that such a thing is in line with Dumbledore’s own thinking: safety of the students above all. Here we have canon that the order expected Snape to join them in the fight. We have no canon that in such scenarios the order or Dumbledore wouldn’t expect Snape to join the fight because of his spy status; those thoughts are all part of the Snape is good theory.

So what did Dumbledore see when Snape entered the tower alone? A man who does not protect his students and who doesn’t arrive on his orders. And so Dumbledore knew.

The Snape is loyal theories have all kind of different interpretations of course. But if one imagines that Snape really did betray Dumbledore it is not strange that he realised that Snape was not on his side simply by arriving alone.

On the other hand:I don't understand why Dumbledore needed to beg a good Snape to kill him when Snape had given no indication that he wasn't planning on doing just that. Indeed, if Dumbledore didn't think that good Snape was about to kill him what was he thinking what good Snape was going to do at that moment? Attack the deatheaters without the element of surprise? Just die on the spot?

Just want to add something abut the revaling of Snape's loyalties. I believe they have not been revealed yet. Some of you suggested that the actual revelation was the murder of Dumbledore and Snape will not play a very significant part from now on, since he has been revealed. I believe otherwise. The murder was not a revelation - because we were shown "evil Snape" before that - at the very beginning of the book. We were shown Snape explaining his loyalty to Voldemort to a Death Eater in a very convincing fashion, leaving no doubt about his ambiguous actions. So the final murder can's really be viewed as a revelation. Snape has been shown being as evil as it gets and in the beginning of the book, too. That's why I find it very hard to believe that he will indeed turn out a faithful Voldemort's follower, for whatever reason. The revealing of his motivations and who's he working for is yet to come in DH and since the author did a very good job in convincing us that Snape is evil and showing him in two situations that leave no doubt about how he's working for Voldemort, I don't think this will just be repeated in DH. There is much more about Snape coming, and it would show him ina whole different light, I believe.Indeed there will be more on Snape. Not much page time though I think. JKR has removed Snape from Harry’s vicinity. The storyline, finding horcruxes, is also not in line with Snape’s story. The whole horcruxes thing is put back in Voldemort’s past (before Snape even became a deatheater) and JKR had the other deatheaters removed from this plotline. It will be just Harry and friends against Voldemort’s protection for the most part.
Yet there will be a revelation about Dumbledore’s reasons and the like and a meeting between Snape and Harry. I personally think that there will be a twist, like Snape not being loyal to Voldemort, or at least not being completely loyal to Voldemort. But I don’t think it will be like all the other books, that Snape is not what he seems like in all the other books. That’s not much of a twist really and undoubtedly one of the reasons that so many fans still think he is loyal to Dumbledore. Just PS repeated, and I don’t think JKR uses the same plotline twice.
But a very interesting book it could be if Snape, who has proven himself not to be loyal to Dumbledore (and actually continued a pattern from previous books: quit often we see Snape and Dumbledore thinking different on matters, most notably in POA) was also not loyal to Voldemort. Indeed, Dumbledore’s opinion why Snape changed sides has nothing to do with Dumbledore but with Harry as last remaining Potter. We see the pain Snape endures when he tries to curse Harry in HBP, interesting foreshadowing perhaps?

So I agree that not all about Snape is being revealed. But I find it very unlikely that what is revealed, the brutal murder of Dumbledore, is not true. I think there will be additional information and twists with Snape (in rather limited page time) but not a relative simple complete reversal from what we are shown. Usually the trick with JKR is connect all the hints and facts we are shown. The extremes (Snape always a deatheater and Snape always loyal to Dumbledore) don’t seem to do that. Both set of theories explain too much away of what we are shown, and try to reverse too much of what we are told in previous books. So where I understand that you feel that there is more on Snape to come I don’t think you will find that JKR will indeed alter the end of HBP.

All in my opinion of course.

Do you think that Dumbledore thought that the necklace incident was unrelated to Draco's task or that he didn't know about the task?

I believe SIP is suggesting that Dumbledore knew Draco must have an accomplice. By asking all the Heads to investigate in their Houses, he was covering the possibility that the accomplice was a fellow student with DE connections. Such students exist in houses besides Slytherin according to JKR.

I believe SIP is suggesting that Dumbledore knew Draco must have an accomplice. By asking all the Heads to investigate in their Houses, he was covering the possibility that the accomplice was a fellow student with DE connections. Such students exist in houses besides Slytherin according to JKR.
Correct ~ I think Dumbledore knew Draco was doing something, because he knew about Snape's Unbreakable Vow.

What no one knew at that time was that Rosmerta was the one who put the necklace in the lady's room at the Three Broomsticks. Dumbledore was trying to find out if a girl was helping Draco - that's what I mean.

This is the statement JKR said about DE-children in other houses:



ES: It's gotta be a bad idea to stick all the Death Eaters' kids together in one place.

[All crack up again ]

JKR: But they're not all - don't think I don't take your point, but - we, the reader, and I as the writer, because I'm leading you all there - you are seeing Slytherin house always from the perspective of Death Eaters' children. They are a small fraction of the total Slytherin population. I'm not saying all the other Slytherins are adorable, but they're certainly not Draco; they're certainly not, you know, Crabbe and Goyle. They're not all like that. That would be too brutal for words, wouldn't it?

ES: But there aren't a lot of Death Eater children in the other houses, are there?

JKR: You will have people connected with Death Eaters in the other houses, yeah, absolutely.

ES: Just in lesser numbers.

JKR: Probably. I hear you.



Due to that statement, I think it makes sense for Dumbledore to have all the Houses checked for collaborators with Draco. Why not? We know that even a Gryffindor can turn against his friends - Peter - so why shouldn't Dumbledore be suspicious of children other than Slytherins?

Thanks for the explanations, zgirnius and silver ink pot. I didn't understand the earlier post. Now I do.

Dumbledore can be quit sharp. The moment he took you, I knew - and I followed." One action of Croody was enough for Dumbledore to know the truth, so it is not unprecedented that the same happened here.

'Moody's' was an unambiguous action, though. He took Harry away. Dumbledore didn't know it the moment Moody walked up to Harry, but once he took Harry some distance away from the scene.

Dumbledore's reaction on the Tower was instant. We are told one of the DEs immediately speaks to Snape, and then, 'someone else (Dumbledore) had spoken', indicating it was at the same time. If Snape had led a charge of the Order members and was the first up the stairs, others could be following in a few seconds. They might reasonably have more trouble getting free of the fight raging below due to some combination of Snape's duelling prowess and his advantage of surprise, since the DEs believe him to be one of them. If he expected Snape to attack the other DEs, surely he would expect Snape to take a quick look around first, as Snape indeed did. It would be foolish to attack without knowing the odds and the situation, and working out some rough plan of action.

Attack the deatheaters without the element of surprise? Just die on the spot?

Snape retained the element of surprise even though he did not attack instantly. This is clear from the manner in which the DE addressed Snape - as an ally. So yes, Snape attacking with the element of surprise, having ascertained that Dumbledore was in need of rescue and having identified all the DEs he would need to take out somehow, would certainly be a possibility.

The whole horcruxes thing is put back in Voldemort’s past (before Snape even became a deatheater) and JKR had the other deatheaters removed from this plotline. It will be just Harry and friends against Voldemort’s protection for the most part.

She did? We know Lucius (who was also not a DE when Voldemort got into the Horcrux making business) was entrusted with one Horcrux, Bella with Voldemort's 'most precious-', and Regulus Black knew of the existence and function of one Horcrux from some source. It seems to me that where there are three Death Eaters, there could be more.

And we do not know whether or not Snape knows about Horcruxes. He could. He is an expert in the Dark Arts. He knows Voldemort didn't die when he should have. He has seen the effects of at least one Horcrux protection. He knows something about what happened in CoS, and likely about Voldemort's anger at Lucius. I think assuming Snape can have nothing to do with any Horcruxes is not a safe assumption.

He also has just the skills needed for the task of finding and destroying them- knowledge of and ability to heal the effects of, powerful Dark curses.

Yet there will be a revelation about Dumbledore’s reasons and the like and a meeting between Snape and Harry. I personally think that there will be a twist, like Snape not being loyal to Voldemort, or at least not being completely loyal to Voldemort. But I don’t think it will be like all the other books, that Snape is not what he seems like in all the other books.

Have you always believed that Snape was evil, then? I never thought so after PS/SS. Only in GoF could I even see it going either way, when I learned he had been a Death Eater. And then not because he and his actions were suspicious, but because it was theoretically possible he had not really 'returned'. I think he can be exactly what he seems like, and loyal to Dumbledore. Certainly nothing he did in PS/SS through OotP gave me any pause (once PS/SS was cleared up).

I don’t think JKR uses the same plotline twice.

Voldemort wants a powerful magical item he believes will be useful to him. Harry is the only person able to obtain it. After he does, Voldemort attacks Harry and is foiled by the Love in Harry, which causes him enormous pain.

Which book have I just outlined in brief?

But a very interesting book it could be if Snape, who has proven himself not to be loyal to Dumbledore (and actually continued a pattern from previous books: quite often we see Snape and Dumbledore thinking different on matters, most notably in POA)

In PoA Snape and Dumbledore disagreed. Snape made his views very clear, and Snape's views were entirely consistent with loyalty to Dumbledore. They did not disagree on desired outcomes, but on methods to be used. Both wanted Sirius apprehended and (in my opinion) Harry safe. Snape just didn't trust Lupin while Dumbledore did. There are other examples as well, I know you just picked one, but to me, loyalty doesn't have to involve perfect agreement and obedience, to count. There are times when Harry disagreed with or disobeyed Dumbledore, but he is clearly on the good side, "Dumbledore's man through and through", he just has his own view of things, his own weaknesses, and his own reasons for doing things that sometimes take precedence in his mind. Snape does too - all people do.

We see the pain Snape endures when he tries to curse Harry in HBP, interesting foreshadowing perhaps?

His first attempt to curse Harry would seem to be after he is shown to be in horrible pain. I'm pretty sure the spell that threw Harry to the ground was "Expelliarmus", a defensive charm, since Harry ended up sans wand. It looked a lot like what Snape did to Lockhart in CoS.

hello.

since this forum has started so long ago I haven't read through any of the responses, so I'm sorry if my response seems a bit repetitive.

I personally believe that Snape is good. I believe that he was a spy for the Order and that he had been a spy the last time round as well. I'm not sure right now if he started out as a spy, or if he started out as a Death Eater and then "saw the light" so to speak. However I do believe that we will learn why Dumbledore trusted him so much in the next book. I also believe that Snape is more devout to the cause than most other people in the order, and that is why he had to kill Dumbledore. I also think that Dumbledore knew before hand that he would evetually die by Snape's hand. I believe Snape had told him about the Unbreakable Vow, and as Dumbledore was just devoted to the cause he knew that Snape had to do what he did. Also I think that Snape is good because when he was running from the castle with the other Death Eaters he wasn't trying to duel Harry, the only things he was casting were defensive spells, trying to throw off Harry's attacks.
I believe that Snape is good, however Harry probably won't realize this until somewhere near the end of the book. Snape might try and reveal this to him before hand, but Harry won't believe him. However, I think Hermoine might belive him, and she might try and convice Harry.

Well, that's it.
I think I'll go to bed now.

Snape is like Jessica Rabbit, "I'm not Bad, I'm just drawn that way!"
As with Snape, you take what happened at the tower at face value, you have to delve into it!

What about this argument?

1) Snape told Draco that he made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa Malfoy.
2) Malfoy can easily check this with his mom, so Snape cannot afford to lie here.
3) From the above, Dumbledore can see that Snape must have been telling the truth about the Unbreakable Vow.
4) Hence Dumbledore knew that Snape really made an Unbrekable Vow, and he doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

So

1) Dumbledore knew that Snape really made an unbrekable vow and was fine with it.

2) Because of the Jinx, from the beginning Dumbledore knew that Snape would not be in a position to teach DADA next year.

This points to the idea that Dumbledore was prepared for it all along.

he is gud he killed dumbledore to completely prove his loyalty to vodemort and at the end he will help harry....i hav a feeling that dumbledor had a hand in his own death

i dont think he is bad but if he is he will *** back on the gud side

i dont think he is bad but if he is he will *** back on the gud side

Ok. For all the reasons many of you have given in this forum I also believe that Snape is good. My take on it is slightly 'out of the box' though!

I believe that Dumbledore is a Horcrux and that he knew it. Snape also knew it. Harry would have found out and would not have been able to kill his friend and mentor. Dumbledore knew this so the events on top of the castle took place. Harry wont know this as he will be searching for the last Horcrux when he and Snape will come face to face. I think Snape will die and the truth will out.

Finally I believe that Ginny is the one who will die as the love protection to Harry almost as a throw back to Lilly.

I think he wont come back. Killing a man who believed in you since the very beginning is not the best way to show your loyalty. But, in the first movie/book, When Quirrell was bewitching Harry's broomstick, Snape was trying to fix it with a countercurse. If Snape was after harry then why did he try and save him?? hmmm..... He might return but high doubts of it.

Btw, if Snape wanted to do kill Dumbledore, he probably coud have done it when Dumbledore returned to him, greviously injured after the incident with the Gaunt Ring.

I have extremely good evidence that snape is indeed, a hero at heart. If you all open up your HPB to page 405, you will see hagrid talking to harry about an argument between Dumbledore and Snape. Hagrid told harry that what he heard from the argument was that Snape told Dumbledore that he didn't want to do it anymore, but Dumbledore completely overrode Snape and told him he has to do it even if Snape didn't want to. (all based on my memory, which i believe is quite accurate).

Now, it sounds to me that Dumbledore fully knows about Snape's Unbreakable vow, and Malfoy's plans. Dumbledore may have planned to have Snape kill him (DD), so that Voldemort could (and the other death eaters) would completely trust him.

This is my strongest argument, and I haven't seen on these forums (and i have indeed looked) so i just thought i would post my theory here. please read page 405 before u shoot me down, so that at least u can properly explain yourself with evidence from the text.

i'm not exactly sure what i believe at the moment. i read the book that emerson and the others wrote and i was slightly convinced that snape was good. but when you go back and look at the facts... it's hard to see how snape ISN'T evil. i just don't get it. he might be, as an archetype, the "apparently evil creature with good heart." i'm just not sure.

Btw, if Snape wanted to do kill Dumbledore, he probably coud have done it when Dumbledore returned to him, greviously injured after the incident with the Gaunt Ring.

Yes, and he could have made it look like the ring did it, too. That way he could take credit with Voldemort but remain at Hogwarts and innocent in the eyes of the Ministry. And he would have no need to take a pesky, potentially dangerous Vow to protect Draco, either.

I believe Snape's good. Simply because he's had so many opportunities to kill Harry and hasn't - AND Dumbledore's not stupid. Yes, he's admitted his mistakes tend to be bigger than most (and let's face it, this would be a pretty big mistake) but he was really really positive Snape was on his side and he must have had a pretty solid reason to be so sure. I'm sure we'll find out what it is in DH... We have to... WE HAVE TO!!!!!!

I think, like others, that Dumby knew perfectly well he was going to die, and probably even had a part in it (my personal belief is that he instructed Snape to do it) but I'm sure there's going to be a much more involved and twisted explanation than any of us can come up with right now.

Having said that, if Snape does turn out to be bad... I'm going to be as upset as I would be if Harry, Hermione or Ron were to die... *whimpers*

Ok. For all the reasons many of you have given in this forum I also believe that Snape is good. My take on it is slightly 'out of the box' though!

I believe that Dumbledore is a Horcrux and that he knew it. Snape also knew it. Harry would have found out and would not have been able to kill his friend and mentor. Dumbledore knew this so the events on top of the castle took place. Harry wont know this as he will be searching for the last Horcrux when he and Snape will come face to face. I think Snape will die and the truth will out.

Finally I believe that Ginny is the one who will die as the love protection to Harry almost as a throw back to Lilly.

:welcome: to CoS, Alfie! Those are interesting ideas.

Quote:

Btw, if Snape wanted to do kill Dumbledore, he probably coud have done it when Dumbledore returned to him, greviously injured after the incident with the Gaunt Ring.

Yes, and he could have made it look like the ring did it, too. That way he could take credit with Voldemort but remain at Hogwarts and innocent in the eyes of the Ministry. And he would have no need to take a pesky, potentially dangerous Vow to protect Draco, either.
Great point.

I was just reading Chapter 4 of HBP, and Dumbledore says that what happened to his hand is "a thrilling tale. I wish to do it justice."

Later he tells Harry that "Had it not been for . . . my own prodigious skill, and Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale." (Chap. 23, "Horcruxes")

Actually, Dumbledore never says what Snape did, but there is no doubt that Snape saved his life. Why heal someone you plan to kill later?

Why does he leave Harry behind at the end of Book 6? Why not let the other DEs torture him? Why not wound him?

We know there are hundreds of horrible hexes that could have maimed Harry, yet when he sees Ginny after that he says "I'm not hurt." Exactly.

i'm not exactly sure what i believe at the moment. i read the book that emerson and the others wrote and i was slightly convinced that snape was good. but when you go back and look at the facts... it's hard to see how snape ISN'T evil. i just don't get it. he might be, as an archetype, the "apparently evil creature with good heart." i'm just not sure.
I just got the Mugglenet book and I think the section on Snape is very sympathetic towards the character. They lost me with the idea that Dumbledore forced Snape to take an Unbreakable Vow.

Why have this theme of "choice" all through the book, and then have Dumbledore forcing people to make do-or-die Vows so he can trust them? :rolleyes: I don't believe anyone in the Order has to take an Unbreakable Vow, and I don't believe Snape did either.

Btw, if Snape wanted to do kill Dumbledore, he probably coud have done it when Dumbledore returned to him, greviously injured after the incident with the Gaunt Ring.


That really is one of the most convincing arguments I've heard! Snape obviously had a reason for not allowing Dumbledore to die then, and we can assume it wasn't because he cares about the readers! ;)

That really is one of the most convincing arguments I've heard! Snape obviously had a reason for not allowing Dumbledore to die then, and we can assume it wasn't because he cares about the readers! ;)The ring incident happened before the unbreakable vow. Snape has never wanted to kill Dumbledore. He is one of the few people, if not the only person, who truly believes in him. It wasn't until Narcissa showed up in Spinner's End that Snape was forced into making a choice. He had to decide if he wanted to suffer the consequences of having Voldemort question his loyalty, or take the vow, knowing that Dumbledore's days were numbered.

The ring incident happened before the unbreakable vow. Snape has never wanted to kill Dumbledore. He is one of the few people, if not the only person, who truly believes in him. It wasn't until Narcissa showed up in Spinner's End that Snape was forced into making a choice. He had to decide if he wanted to suffer the consequences of having Voldemort question his loyalty, or take the vow, knowing that Dumbledore's days were numbered.

I have a problem with this "Snape cared for DD" theory. On what basis? Purely because DD chose to believe his supposed remorse of the Potter's death? Because DD kept him at Hogwarts? For all we know Snape could have lied to DD about the Potter's and is thinking how easy it was to pull the wool over the old man's eyes. For all we know he may have despised DD for only allowing him the potions job and never the dark arts job. He may have despised DD for simply "allowing" him to stay at Hogwarts (out of pity perhaps, much like Trelawney) he may have despised DD for forcing him to be a double spy. The point is Snape has never showed any sort of affection toward anyone especially DD., and he has as many reasons to dislike DD as to like him.

As far as Snape saving DD life with the ring....of course he would! Voldemort has never charged Snape with the killing of DD. I expect that Voldemort would want to do DD in himself. (Even DD admits that Voldemort probably thought that Draco would die, not DD).

I don't think he cared for DD, but I think Harry will have paid off his life debt without realizing it. Then Harry would spend the rest of the book away from snape thinking he was bad. but then Snape will have become good couse Harry saved his life and do something to save him.

I have a problem with this "Snape cared for DD" theory. On what basis? Purely because DD chose to believe his supposed remorse of the Potter's death? Because DD kept him at Hogwarts? For all we know Snape could have lied to DD about the Potter's and is thinking how easy it was to pull the wool over the old man's eyes. For all we know he may have despised DD for only allowing him the potions job and never the dark arts job. He may have despised DD for simply "allowing" him to stay at Hogwarts (out of pity perhaps, much like Trelawney) he may have despised DD for forcing him to be a double spy. The point is Snape has never showed any sort of affection toward anyone especially DD., and he has as many reasons to dislike DD as to like him. I can see why you feel this way. We see Snape being polite to Narcissa in Spinner's End, but I think is the first time we have seen him be so nice to someone in the whole series. The reason I think that Snape cared for Dumbledore is because he stayed with him after Voldemort returned to his body. It would have been the perfect time to leave Dumbledore if he really hated him. And just for the record, I don't believe that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. I think it was a great big surprise for Dumbledore when Snape turned up on the Tower.

:welcome: flimseycauldron and Gracezilla06!

I think the mere fact that Dumbledore believed in Snape would be enough to inspire loyalty, especially since Snape apparently came from a poor background and was unpopular at school. Dumbledore's trust must have meant a lot to him, assuming that very few people either liked or trusted him before that. And we do see that Snape, while he complains at times, always submits to Dumbledore.

:welcome: flimseycauldron and Gracezilla06!

I think the mere fact that Dumbledore believed in Snape would be enough to inspire loyalty, especially since Snape apparently came from a poor background and was unpopular at school. Dumbledore's trust must have meant a lot to him, assuming that very few people either liked or trusted him before that. And we do see that Snape, while he complains at times, always submits to Dumbledore.

Thanks anabel!:love: but isn't his background what made him become a death eater in the first place? JKR herself has said that he has known love and therefor his actions despite that make him almost worse than Voldemort, who has never known love. (who by the way was offered the same trust as Snape) As far as him submitting to DD...well DD is the greatest wizard of the age, excepting Voldy, so I could see why Snape would submit to him. Also DD was in charge of Hogwarts. I can certainly see Snape (like Harry and Trelawney) thinking of Hogwarts as his home, and being on DD good side allows Snape to stay there.

By the way, I love your avatar! I don't know why people complain about the new DE masks. I think they are awesome!

Okay, Snape is good. Deal with it.

Snape is good. That's because he can love. As we know, for Snape to kill Dumbledore for Voldemort, not on Dumbledore's orders, would give him power equal or close to Voldemort himself. Afterall, Voldemort could never kill Dumbledore. But Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, never loved another and love is his greatest weakness and he doesn't understand it at all. Yet, as much as I despise this fact, Snape loved or liked Lily. We don't know the complications of that (If Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily because he loved her and stuff like that) and I don't want to argue about them (actually I do, just not here) but Snape did like/ love Lily. Love, as I've said, is something Voldemort is incapable of. Harry, James, Lily, Dumbledore, and everyone else on the good side has at least some- if not an exceptional amount- of love in them. Doesn't that put Snape on the good side? After all, I don't think any of the DE are really capable of love either. Bella didn't exactly seemed concerned when her nephew was pretty much condemned to death. In fact, the only signs of love I've ever seen from a DE is Narcissa when she was so worried about Draco. But, the point is, DE can't really love, neither can Voldemort, who, as I've said, is just a bit more powerful than Snape. So, now that I've said all this, doesn't that leave Snape on the good side?

Thanks anabel!:love: but isn't his background what made him become a death eater in the first place? JKR herself has said that he has known love and therefor his actions despite that make him almost worse than Voldemort, who has never known love. (who by the way was offered the same trust as Snape)

Actually Voldemort wasn't offered the same trust, not by Dumbledore anyway. Tom Riddle had all of the other professors fooled into trusting him, but not Dumbledore.

And as for Snape, we still don't know why he became a Death eater. It may have been his background, or it may have been something that happened during, or after, school that sent him down that road. But I think that Dumbledore was right, when Snape realized who Voldemort had set his sights on he panicked, and went running to the one man who might have a chance of stopping him...Dumbledore.

I'd be amazed if Snape didn't feel some sort of gratitude towards Dumbledore. It was Dumbledore that went to bat for him when he was on trial for being a Death eater. If it hadn't been for him, Snape would have spent all those years in Azkaban.

Dumbledore trusted him when no one else would. Which is why I think that Snape is still loyal to him, and acting on his orders.

Actually Voldemort wasn't offered the same trust, not by Dumbledore anyway. Tom Riddle had all of the other professors fooled into trusting him, but not Dumbledore.

And as for Snape, we still don't know why he became a Death eater. It may have been his background, or it may have been something that happened during, or after, school that sent him down that road. But I think that Dumbledore was right, when Snape realized who Voldemort had set his sights on he panicked, and went running to the one man who might have a chance of stopping him...Dumbledore.

I'd be amazed if Snape didn't feel some sort of gratitude towards Dumbledore. It was Dumbledore that went to bat for him when he was on trial for being a Death eater. If it hadn't been for him, Snape would have spent all those years in Azkaban.

Dumbledore trusted him when no one else would. Which is why I think that Snape is still loyal to him, and acting on his orders.

I believe that Voldemort was. DD knew that something was off about Tom Riddle when he realized that Tom had been stealing things from the other children at the orphanage. He also knew that Tom was unbalanced by the way he reacted upon learning that he was a wizard ie in arrogant "oh of course" manner. But DD trusted him enough to give him a second chance and brought him to Hogwarts. It wasn't until later, after Hagrids expulsion, that DD had renewed distrust about Tom Riddle. In my eyes that means that if anyone should have been greatful to DD it should be Voldemort.

And the thing that I can't get past is the Longbottoms. Snape knew that the prohecy was putting SOMEONE in danger. And he didn't care. It wasn't until he learned that it was the Potter's specifically that he showed DD remorse. Meaning that there was something unique about the Potters. For all that Snape cared when he shared the prophecy the Longbottoms could have rotted. They meant nothing to him. Their lives meant nothing to him.

As far as Azkaban goes I think that DD WOULD have sent him to Azkaban despite Snape's "remorse" if he hadn't been in the perfect position to be a double spy...

Okay, Snape is good. Deal with it.

Snape is good. That's because he can love. As we know, for Snape to kill Dumbledore for Voldemort, not on Dumbledore's orders, would give him power equal or close to Voldemort himself. Afterall, Voldemort could never kill Dumbledore. But Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, never loved another and love is his greatest weakness and he doesn't understand it at all. Yet, as much as I despise this fact, Snape loved or liked Lily. We don't know the complications of that (If Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily because he loved her and stuff like that) and I don't want to argue about them (actually I do, just not here) but Snape did like/ love Lily. Love, as I've said, is something Voldemort is incapable of. Harry, James, Lily, Dumbledore, and everyone else on the good side has at least some- if not an exceptional amount- of love in them. Doesn't that put Snape on the good side? After all, I don't think any of the DE are really capable of love either. Bella didn't exactly seemed concerned when her nephew was pretty much condemned to death. In fact, the only signs of love I've ever seen from a DE is Narcissa when she was so worried about Draco. But, the point is, DE can't really love, neither can Voldemort, who, as I've said, is just a bit more powerful than Snape. So, now that I've said all this, doesn't that leave Snape on the good side?


I don't see how, honestly. As I stated previously JKR herself said that Snape was in many ways worse than Voldemort because he HAD known love and still had done many horrible things. It is pure supposition that Snape loved/liked Lily, but even if he did I just don't see it making that much of an impact on the story. (The romantic in me likes the idea but the pragmatist in me says no way)

I think the mere fact that Dumbledore believed in Snape would be enough to inspire loyalty, especially since Snape apparently came from a poor background and was unpopular at school. Dumbledore's trust must have meant a lot to him, assuming that very few people either liked or trusted him before that. And we do see that Snape, while he complains at times, always submits to Dumbledore. [/QUOTE] :tu: I agree 100%. Severus Snape was probably made fun of, bullied and REJECTED by everyone he came in contact with. His fate was sealed the moment he arrived at Hogwarts. Then he gets a refuge and a Job at Hogwarts. Dumbledore was the FIRST person to see Severus Snape--the MAN inside. He sees BEYOND the cold and aloof exterior and sees the man inside. While his Co-Workers judge him and avoid him, unless it's to their advantage, Dumbledore sees Severus for the Person he is. If he disagrees with Snape, he does so in a respectful manner. In other words, he has never mocked him or his opinions by saying "You have got to be kidding me" or "they're only having fun". Dumbledore has treated Snape as his equal--almost like a Son. So I'm sure Snape appreciates this. Especially when people NEVER gave him the time of day, except for if it was to their benefit, even then ONLY coming to him as a last resort.him into doing a Project for them so they'd get an "A" to impress their parents.
[QUOTE]Okay, Snape is good. Deal with it.
Snape is good. That's because he can love. As we know, for Snape to kill Dumbledore for Voldemort, not on Dumbledore's orders, would give him power equal or close to Voldemort himself. Afterall, Voldemort could never kill Dumbledore. But Voldemort, as Dumbledore said, never loved another and love is his greatest weakness and he doesn't understand it at all. Yet, as much as I despise this fact, Snape loved or liked Lily. We don't know the complications of that (If Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily because he loved her and stuff like that) and I don't want to argue about them (actually I do, just not here) but Snape did like/ love Lily. Love, as I've said, is something Voldemort is incapable of. Harry, James, Lily, Dumbledore, and everyone else on the good side has at least some- if not an exceptional amount- of love in them. Doesn't that put Snape on the good side? After all, I don't think any of the DE are really capable of love either. Bella didn't exactly seemed concerned when her nephew was pretty much condemned to death. In fact, the only signs of love I've ever seen from a DE is Narcissa when she was so worried about Draco. But, the point is, DE can't really love, neither can Voldemort, who, as I've said, is just a bit more powerful than Snape. So, now that I've said all this, doesn't that leave Snape on the good side?
Again I agree with you. I also think there was some sort of Friendship between Lily and Snape. This naturally leads to this question: If Snape loved Lily, or was Friends with Lily Evans, then how DARE he call her a "FILTHY little Mudblood"? Which is a good question. The answer is simple. Snape was now not only being Humiliated, but he was also Embarrassed that it took Lily Evans to stop James Potter from Bullying him. She also waited to intervene. I've used the "little Sister" scenario before. Now imagine you're a 15 year-old guy and you have two people Bullying you. Now imagine your MOTHER coming along with a Rolling Pin in her hand saying "You leave my little Boy alone". Now imagine James and Sirius Bullying Snape and his MOTHER coming to his rescue. In this example, it's clear Snape wouldn't even be able to face his fellow Slytherins because his MUMMY had to help him. But because it's Lily Evans, the lines become a little more grey.
I'm NOT saying what Severus said to her was right, but I can understand. He was now humiliated because he's so low in the Students' eyes, it took none other than Lily Evans to stop James Potter to stop his assault.
He's now angry she's making him look weak, so he tells her off to make her feel as low as he does. At that moment, he hated her for making him look even weaker. So he naturally says the first thing which comes to his mind. He wants to make her sorry for intervening.
Also, if they were Friends, this clearly was the end of it. Because no matter how close they may have been, I don't see Snape being mature enough to go up to her and say "I insulted you and I'm sorry. I was wrong". Snape will NEVER admit he was wrong. Especially when he was a kid because admitting he was wrong is admitting to being weak.

I'm on the lines that the betrayal was done to protect Snape's position within the DE's. He would be in a better place to help Harry passing information in than if he refused. If Snape was inheritantly evil there would have been no redemption for him.

Well, before I go on, here's my theory.

It all started that fateful night at Spinner's End, when Snape was visited by Narcissa Malfoy and her sister, Bellatrix Lestrange. Narcissa came pleading to Snape to help her son, Draco, survive the task Voldemort had assigned to him. Voldemort had assigned such a horrifically difficult task to Draco in hope that Draco would die in the process, as penance from Lucius for failing him so.

But Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains at the deserted street, then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa, frowning.

"It so happens that I know of the plan," he said in a low voice. "I am one of the few the Dark Lord has told. Nevertheless, had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been guilty of great treachery to the Dark Lord."

page 32, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
This was most probably a bluff on Snape's part. Voldemort would have only told his inner circle about the plan, and Snape is most definitely not within that circle [elaborated further down below]. Snape walked over to the window and stared out of it for a moment probably to try to decide what to do: if he should just admit he had now knowledge of the plan or if he should try to bluff it. Obviously, the latter choice won, because it and more benefits. Bellatrix is a very influential member on the Dark side. She undoubtedly believes that Snape can not be trusted, and she has no qualms with telling the world her opinions. Many Death Eaters probably listen to her. If Snape were to admit to Narcissa that he had no knowledge of the plan, in front of Bellatrix, that Snape's reputation would be down the drain. Also, Snape had a chance of learning more about this plan and who was in on it, which would no doubt be valuable information. He therefore bluffed that he knew what it was already, in the hopes that Narcissa would divulge more into it, which she did, and salvage his reputation in front of Bellatrix.

"The Unbreakable Vow?"

Snape's expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.

"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure.... The usual empty words, the usual empty words, the usual slither out of action...oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!"

page 35, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
This is where Snape really messes up. Snape has a sore spot for being called a coward, I think. Although Bellatrix did not directly say it, she was emphasizing that he was a coward and was sued to getting out of what he was supposed to do when the going got too tough. As i explain further on in this, no one understands the bravery and guts needed to do what Snape does, and for him to be called a coward because no one know about his position hurts him, a lot. It’s a knife to the heart. Snape's expression was 'blank and unreadable' after Narcissa offered to make an Unbreakable vow because he knew that this situation was extreme, and he knew he couldn't accept the Unbreakable Vow because he did not fully know the specs of Voldemort's plan. But after Bellatrix taunted him, he was determined not to give in and prove her right, and made the rash decision to accept the vow. Calling Snape a coward is rather like daring Snape to do something. Snape also couldn't have thought that the task assigned to Draco was all that difficult that he, an accomplished wizard, could not finish up if Draco failed. There was no way for Snape to foretell the extremities of the plan, and therefore he agreed to something he had no clue about.

Snape must have told Dumbeldore this information later on, and, after analyzing the scenario, Dumbeldore came to the decision to have Snape kill him for ulterior motives. This is why I do NOT believe Snape killed Dumbeldore out of cold blood.

Dumbledore had pleaded with Snape, saying, "Severus... Severus please..." not because Dumbledore wanted Snape to spare his life. Quite on the contrary, I believe that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to end it. I think the whole plot, everything from the infiltration of Hogwarts to the killing of Dumbledore, was, paradoxically, plotted by Dumbledore himself, with the aid of Snape.

Before I go any further, I sincerely believe Snape is a good person, not a miscreant like many make him out to be. Let's put thing into Snape's perspective. Snape was not on Voldemort's favorite list. When Voldemort was vanquished for the first time by Harry, Snape was one of most of the Death Eaters to forget his existence and move on, if you look at it like Voldemort does and view Snape as a Death Eater, even though he isn't. Then, on the day of Voldemort's return, Snape did not answer his master's beckoning, even though he clearly had to feel his mark burn. Snape has been working under Dumbledore ever since the end of Voldemort's first reign, and considering that Dumbledore is one of Voldemort's adversaries, Voldemort must have some suspicions concerning Snape's loyalty.

Snape is a master Occlumens, so Voldemort cannot be sure that anything he sees in Snape's mind, if Snape were to oblige him entrance, is truthful. I am sure an accomplished Occlumens has the power to make intruder's see memories they want them to, and possibly even fabricate memories. So, Voldemort has no real assurance that Snape is loyal to himself and not to Dumbledore, and because of this doubt, Snape is most likely not within Voldemort's inner circle, with whom he plans all his vestigous plots. Dumbledore realized Snape's position and offered a solution to his dilemma.

The one way in which Voldemort could undoubtedly trust Severus Snape was for Snape to do something extreme and greatly helpful to the dark Lord that would abominate the questioning of his loyalty. Naturally, for the Dark Lord, this sort of action would most likely be the death of an enemy. Although Voldemort's main enemy is Harry, Snape couldn't go and kill Harry because Harry was vital to the survival of the Wizarding Community, and without him the world was fall into the hands of Voldemort. Next on Voldemort's hit list was Dumbledore, and Dumbledore realized this.

So, he hatched a plan with Snape so that Snape would kill Dumbledore, although unwillingly, and thus gain a permanent place of trust within the Dark Lord. This would put Snape in a place in which he could be of use when the time was necessary for him to help the war effort against Voldemort, even clandestinely, perhaps by sabotaging or leaking important information that would only be available to the ears of Voldemort's inner circle.

Now, you must understand Snape's scenario. I firmly believe that he is working against Voldemort, but as to where his loyalties lie, I would say it's neither to Voldemort or the Order. But rather to Dumbledore. Dumbledore was the only person who truly gave Snape the time of day and understood him for what he was and why he made the decisions he did, besides, maybe, Lily. Dumbledore had it in his heart to give Snape a second chance, despite his dark past, and that most probably meant something far beyond simple gratitude on Snape's part. It instill a deep loyalty and fierce admiration for Dumbledore.

So, back on topic. Dumbledore was not pleading with Snape to save his life, but rather to end it. This was most likely the hardest thing Snape ever had to do. He had to kill the one man who had given him a chance, the one man who trusted him enough to redeem himself. When no one else ever believed in him, Dumbledore stuck firmly by his side and defended on numerous occasions. And now, he was forced to kill the man who had so graciously accepted him for who he was. This was why Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to go through with it, to respect his wishes for on last time.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

page 595, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
Some of you are undoubtedly wondering why Snape would have such a distinct anger and hatred displayed on his face if he was really regretting and sad that he had to kill Dumbledore. This animosity is due to two possible things. The first is hatred of what he is doing. As I said before, it was so hard for Snape to kill the one man who had helped him so much. He hated having to do it, hated it with a burning passion. The second is hatred for himself. He is loathing himself at this point in time for doing something that seems so wrong. And he knows he will hate himself for ever doing it, even though it is necessary.

"...After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." - Albus Dumbledore

page 297, Philosopher's Stone [US Edition]
It is unrealistic, as you said before, that Dumbledore would plead for his life because, according to the quote, Dumbledore is not afraid of death at all. Instead, he views as the "next great adventure". Frankly, it is impossible to think that Dumbledore would ever plead for his life, except in maybe the most extreme of situations.

"No!" roared Snape and the pain stopped as suddenly as it had started; Harry lay curled on the dark grass, clutching his wand and panting; somewhere overhead Snape was shouting, "Have you forgotten orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord -- we are to leave him! Go! Go!"

page 603, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
Again, Snape demonstrated his loyalty to the now deceased Dumbledore. Snape knew that Harry was the key to the defeat of the Dark Lord. He knew Dumbledore, beyond anything else, wanted, needed, that Harry stay alive to end the war. Snape, despite his loathing for Harry, stopped the Death Eaters who were performing the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. It seems rather obvious, to someone as cunning as Snape, that Voldemort would not care how Harry was obtained, whether he did it himself or someone else got him for him, so long as Harry was at his disposal. I doubt Voldemort had any inclination to get Harry himself, but Snape made it seem like he did to stop the other Death Eaters from attacking and possibly killing Harry. Although some may argue this is due to the bond Snape had for James after James saved Snape from Remus, I already think that that bond has been repaid in full after Snape saved Harry during the Quidditch match in book 1 after de-jinxing Harry's broom.

"Kill me then," panted Harry. who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward —"

"DON'T —" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind him —"CALL ME A COWARD!"

page 604, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
After all Snape has done, after the ultimate sacrifice Snape was forced to make just a short while ago, he was still referred to as a coward. Although Snape's position is misunderstood on Harry's part, which ensues in wrongfully inflicting words, the words still cut Snape deep. He realizes that, after all he has done, people will still think he is a traitor until the truth is revealed, presumably after Voldemort's has been destroyed. This made Snape very angry at Harry, and the rest of the 'good' side for not understanding what he had to do, just a while ago. It required bravery, but Harry would never know of it. This situation is similar to when Bellatrix, in so many words, called Snape a coward after he was speechless when Narcissa wanted him to make an Unbreakable Vow. The anger at being called a coward spurs Snape to make irrational decisions. This is another case of it. Harry called Snape a coward, although Snape is anything but, and this angers Snape, which leads to the rash decision to duel with Harry.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. To sum it all up, we can conclude, if you adhere to my beliefs and theory, that Dumbledore was not pleading to spare his life but to end his life, as I believe the murder was premeditated, on both the convict [Snape] and the victim's [Dumbledore] part.

Also, James most likely called Snape a coward on a regular basis, due to animosity between the two. And because of James’s 'political power' [he was popular], maybe Snape was outcasted and viewed upon as a coward during his school years at Hogwarts. This would be literally rubbing the salt in the wound. He was being called a coward by son of his enemy, when he had just completed potentially the bravest thing anyone has ever done for the war effort. This is what enraged Snape, or so I think.

I don't think it's a question of Snape coming back to the good side, but rather if the good side will let Snape come back. The only people who truly knew Snape's role in the war, if you agree with my theory, were Snape and Dumbeldore. Now that Dumbeldore is dead, the only person left who knows the whole truth is Snape. All of the good side thinks Snape is bad, and I doubt they would give him the chance to explain.

Rather, I think that Snape will work undercover for the good side, unbeknownst to them of course, and sabotage Voldemort's plans, or something along those lines, now that Snape is privy to all the information regarding what Voldemort will do.

This only applies to those who think Snape is good.

Is Snape good?Yeah I think so.I used to feel he was bad but then I thought I could never imagine him being bad in the end.He's done bad things but that doesn't make him a true death eater.Dumbledore wouldn't put that much trust into someone so shady.He has better judgement that I think.

Snape seriously confuses me.After reading the 6th book, I think that there is no way Snape can be good. He killed Dumbledore--the only one in Voldemort's way(besides Harry). even if Dumbledore told Snape to do it, he still did it, and he can't be forgiven for that. In the 6th book, he was shown hiding Peter Pettigrew, and making deals with Narcissa, and arguing with Bellatrix about his loyalty. He swears he's loyal to Voldemort, and Voldemort clearly believes him. Snape couldn't have been lying to Voldemort, because Voldemort is a very powerful Legilimens.

It is unrealistic, as you said before, that Dumbledore would plead for his life because, according to the quote, Dumbledore is not afraid of death at all. Instead, he views as the "next great adventure". Frankly, it is impossible to think that Dumbledore would ever plead for his life, except in maybe the most extreme of situations.

I do not believe that Dumbledore was pleading for his life. I believe that DD was pleading for Snape to save Harry, to declare to the DE once and for all, whose side he was on...Harry's. Your entire theory is based on the fact the DD knows about the UV. There is zero canon evidence of this. There is alot of supposition at work despite your quotes which, btw, could be used to point to the whole Snape is evil scenario (You gotta hand it to JKR's great writing for that.) :eyebrows:

I do not believe that Dumbledore was pleading for his life. I believe that DD was pleading for Snape to save Harry, to declare to the DE once and for all, whose side he was on...Harry's. Your entire theory is based on the fact the DD knows about the UV. There is zero canon evidence of this. There is alot of supposition at work despite your quotes which, btw, could be used to point to the whole Snape is evil scenario (You gotta hand it to JKR's great writing for that.) :eyebrows:

That's what a theory is, really. Based off of suppositions. These are just my conclusions from all the events that have taken place. Rowling has a nak for making the readers think the opposite of what is really going to happen.

An example:
"If there's one thing I hate... It's a Death Eater who walked free." -Bartemius Crouch Jr. [Under the guise of Professor Moody]

page 414, Goblet of Fire [US Edition]
When we first heard this quote, we figured that 'Moody' hated the Death Eaters who walked free after the first war, after claiming to have been under the Imperius, because he was an auror who hated Dark Wizards. WE later learn, though, that he truly hated the Death Eaters who walked free because there were not loyal to Voldemort and did not believe he would come back and instead tried to save their own skill. Unlike himself, who went to prison and was loyal to Voldemort until Voldemort finally returned.

Thanks anabel! but isn't his background what made him become a death eater in the first place? JKR herself has said that he has known love and therefor his actions despite that make him almost worse than Voldemort, who has never known love. (who by the way was offered the same trust as Snape) As far as him submitting to DD...well DD is the greatest wizard of the age, excepting Voldy, so I could see why Snape would submit to him. Also DD was in charge of Hogwarts. I can certainly see Snape (like Harry and Trelawney) thinking of Hogwarts as his home, and being on DD good side allows Snape to stay there.Actually, if Voldemort had shown the same trust to Voldemort as he showed to Snape, Voldemort would have got the DADA post when he asked for it!
By the way, I love your avatar! I don't know why people complain about the new DE masks. I think they are awesome!
Thanks. :blush: I like them too.
Dumbledore trusted him when no one else would. Which is why I think that Snape is still loyal to him, and acting on his orders.
I think that sums it up.

That's what a theory is, really. Based off of suppositions. These are just my conclusions from all the events that have taken place. Rowling has a nak for making the readers think the opposite of what is really going to happen.

tuer3, I hope you don't think I was being rude. That wasn't my intent. You are right when you say that a theory is based off assumptions. I guess my problem is that at somepoint you have to take something at face value. I just feel that you are reinterpreting TOO much in an effort to totally absolve Snape.

Actually, if Voldemort had shown the same trust to Voldemort as he showed to Snape, Voldemort would have got the DADA post when he asked for it!

anabel, I don't believe that to be so. As I mentioned earlier (at least I hope it was on this thread:p ) DD shows Tom Riddle trust very early on in their relationship when DD goes to meet him at the orphanage. DD right away that Tom is unusual and, well, creepy. He knows that Riddle has been stealing from the other kids and he notes how Riddle hardly seemd surprised and was downright arrogant when DD tells him he's a wizard. Despite these warning signs DD gives Riddle a place at Hogwarts. This is where DD shows how trusting he is, not to mention his overconfidence in being able to mold Tom into a decent person. It isn't until Hagrid is expelled that DD suspects Riddle of foul play. As the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" As far as the DADA post goes, Voldemort was already doing and ordering atrocious things to happen. Of course DD wasn't going to trust him!

Snape is a totally different matter. 1)he offered a genuine reason to regret the Potters deaths (see above) 2)he wasn't the leader of a dark legion (although he was part of it) 3)he was in the unique position to be a spy on the dark lord it is the combination of 1 and 3 that make DD extend his trust.

anabel, I don't believe that to be so. As I mentioned earlier (at least I hope it was on this thread ) DD shows Tom Riddle trust very early on in their relationship when DD goes to meet him at the orphanage. DD right away that Tom is unusual and, well, creepy. He knows that Riddle has been stealing from the other kids and he notes how Riddle hardly seemd surprised and was downright arrogant when DD tells him he's a wizard. Despite these warning signs DD gives Riddle a place at Hogwarts. This is where DD shows how trusting he is, not to mention his overconfidence in being able to mold Tom into a decent person. It isn't until Hagrid is expelled that DD suspects Riddle of foul play. As the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" As far as the DADA post goes, Voldemort was already doing and ordering atrocious things to happen. Of course DD wasn't going to trust him!
I'm going to have to politely disagree. I don't think it was in Dumbledore's power at that point to deny a magical child his place at Hogwarts, but Dumbledore certainly watched Tom very carefully, and never actually allowed him a position of trust. The situation with Snape is completely different, since Dumbledore knew he had been a Death Eater and was still pretending to be a Death Eater, yet trusted him enough to both let him into the Order, ie he trusted Snape with top secret information and with the safety of all the members, and to give him a teaching job at Hogwarts - something he denied Voldemort.

I'm going to have to politely disagree. I don't think it was in Dumbledore's power at that point to deny a magical child his place at Hogwarts, but Dumbledore certainly watched Tom very carefully, and never actually allowed him a position of trust. The situation with Snape is completely different, since Dumbledore knew he had been a Death Eater and was still pretending to be a Death Eater, yet trusted him enough to both let him into the Order, ie he trusted Snape with top secret information and with the safety of all the members, and to give him a teaching job at Hogwarts - something he denied Voldemort.

Yes DD did give Tom Riddle a position of trust. He made him prefect and head boy (very reminicent of Draco). Really, Riddle owes much more to DD than Snape ever did. When Voldemort came to DD for the DADA position it was more as...an enemy trying to infiltrate the camp as it were. He was commiting atrocities and more than that he was ordering people to commit atrocities for him. DD knew this AND suspected him in the opening of the Chamber of Secrets. It wasn't worth having Voldemort in close to keep an eye on at the risk of other students.

I agree that Snape's case is completely different. Snape had a position within Voldemort's ranks. That is why DD did not send him to Azkaban. Snape may have been remorseful of the Potters but I doubt that that alone would be enough reason to spare him. It was the fact that he was remorseful (for whatever reason) AND could infiltrate Voldemorts ranks that spared him. His position at Hogwarts is more easily explained in that not only was he spy, but then DD would have an easier times keeping tabs on him.

ok I thought about this for awhile and then I was flicking through the channels and came across an Austin Powers movie.......silly movie reference..........but it was the part where Austin's son made a very valid point....."If you wanted to kill him why don't you do it when he is on the ******* or something" Snape had 6 years to harm, injure and mame Harry and DD for that matter....And now that I think about it he could have also spread his death eater views to nomad children just like he was....but he did not (i will exclude Draco for his father was already a DE)...even when he was the DADA teacher he actually effectivly potrayed what it is like to essentially defend against dark magic....WHY would he give these students (harry inparticular) the tools to effectivly defend themselves against his "master"...I am not saying he is a good person in general i think he does have a general loathing for Harry because of the position he put himself in...and I think he really loathed Harry's father as well...but I think the point that will tie all this togather is the relationship Snape could have possibly had with Lily...

Btw, if Snape wanted to do kill Dumbledore, he probably coud have done it when Dumbledore returned to him, greviously injured after the incident with the Gaunt Ring.
Yes, Snape could have killed Dumbledore for 6 books. And he could have killed Harry for 6 books. But perhaps Snape was telling the truth when he said that Dumbledore is the one who kept him out of Azkaban and that he was not going to kill Harry under Dumbledore’s nose. He might have gotten away with it but why take the risk before Voldemort returned? Just looking out for himself.

For the ring it is logical that Snape did not let Dumbledore die if he is on Dumbledore’s side. But it is just as logical if he is on Voldemort’s side. Because he would be following Voldemort’s wishes. And Voldemort’s wishes, according to Snape, are that Draco has the first shot at Dumbledore and if he fails Snape has to do it. That’s precisely what happened. Killing Dumbledore before Draco had his chance would be going against Voldemort’s wishes and therefore something a loyal to Voldemort Snape would not do. Neither would a loyal to Dumbledore Snape.

This not killing with the ring can go either way.

Another aspect is that the chapter title is spinner’s end. This might mean that it is only at that moment, when he took the vow, that Snape made his final choice. Before that he played the sides, given both Voldemort and Dumbledore things without choosing one side over the other. But only in spinner’s end Snape made his choice. The end of the spinner; Snape made his choice.

Why have this theme of "choice" all through the book, and then have Dumbledore forcing people to make do-or-die Vows so he can trust them? :rolleyes: I don't believe anyone in the Order has to take an Unbreakable Vow, and I don't believe Snape did either.
Indeed. It’s not only here I can’t see Dumbledore forcing other people to so wrong things. This theme of choice is so strong that I don’t think Dumbledore would be forcing someone to kill him.
I think the mere fact that Dumbledore believed in Snape would be enough to inspire loyalty, especially since Snape apparently came from a poor background and was unpopular at school. Dumbledore's trust must have meant a lot to him, assuming that very few people either liked or trusted him before that. And we do see that Snape, while he complains at times, always submits to Dumbledore.But we can’t say he is 100% Dumbledore’s man. We’ve seen in HBP people like Lupin saying if you trust Dumbledore you trust his judgement. We don’t see that from Snape. Questioning and doubting Lupin’s appointment in POA, arguing in the forest in HBP, wishing to use dementors in POA. The last one is important. It is understandable why Snape wants revenge on Sirius but he still wanted to use dementors. That’s not Dumbledore, who abhors dementors. A very clear example of Snape not trusting Dumbledore’s way. True loyalty to the man means loyalty to the things he stands for. We don’t have that with Snape. And Snape’s reaction in POA is not the reaction of a 100% loyal man.

Of course this doesn’t need to mean that he is loyal to Voldemort. But it does mean he is not 100% Dumbledore’s man.

And if we see Snape not being 100% Dumbledore’s man we can understand why he was able to kill him.

But we can’t say he is 100% Dumbledore’s man. We’ve seen in HBP people like Lupin saying if you trust Dumbledore you trust his judgement. We don’t see that from Snape. Questioning and doubting Lupin’s appointment in POA, arguing in the forest in HBP, wishing to use dementors in POA. The last one is important. It is understandable why Snape wants revenge on Sirius but he still wanted to use dementors. That’s not Dumbledore, who abhors dementors. A very clear example of Snape not trusting Dumbledore’s way. True loyalty to the man means loyalty to the things he stands for. We don’t have that with Snape. And Snape’s reaction in POA is not the reaction of a 100% loyal man.

Of course this doesn’t need to mean that he is loyal to Voldemort. But it does mean he is not 100% Dumbledore’s man.

And if we see Snape not being 100% Dumbledore’s man we can understand why he was able to kill him.

Snape's continual questioning of DD's decision to hire Lupin seems remarkably to me like Harry's continual questioning of DD's decision to trust Snape, but surely you're not suggesting that Harry's behaviour here shows he's "not 100% Dumbledore's man"?

I agree that the dementor issue is slightly different, because there Snape is prepared to actually do something against DD's will, not merely argue with him.

But we also see Harry act against DD's wishes at times - repeatedly breaking the school rules which DD has set and most noticeably not giving his full attention to the Occlumency lessons, even though DD has stressed how important this is. While this is a less malicious breach of DD's trust than Snape's, it could have far worse consequences.

If we describe anyone who ahs ever gone against DD's wishes asbeing "not 100% Dumbledore's man", I think that probably includes the entire dramatis personae.

Yes DD did give Tom Riddle a position of trust. He made him prefect and head boy (very reminicent of Draco).
I think you'll find that it was the previous headmaster, Dippet, who made that decision. Dumbledore didn't become headmaster until later, but we know that the other staff members were taken in by Tom's ability to flatter and manipulate.

Well, I think that Snape wouldn't be a very good undercover guy for DD if he didn't seem to hate Harry and act like a lowlife.

Snape hated Harry from the time Harry got to Hogwarts. Voldemort was Vapormort and many thought he was gone forever. There was no reason to pretend not to like Harry at this point in time. Snape did not return to his double-agent role until after GoF. I was surprised that Snape continued to be mean to Harry at this point. Here is a kid who just witnessed a classmate get murdered and barely escaped with his life, and Snape did not have a drop of compassion for what Harry had been through. Snape's feelings are real, not pretend.

Snape hated Harry from the time Harry got to Hogwarts.

Actually, this is one of the things that convinces me that he's good. You will recall that he tells Bellatrix at Spinner's End that he was initially intrigued by Harry and wanted to suss out his potential as a new Dark Lord, but quickly realised he was a worthless ignoramus (or words to that effect). The fact that we know that he hated Harry from the second Harry stepped into Hogwarts suggests that he is lying to Bellatrix about this.

I think you'll find that it was the previous headmaster, Dippet, who made that decision. Dumbledore didn't become headmaster until later, but we know that the other staff members were taken in by Tom's ability to flatter and manipulate.

Anabel, I think that you are right about that:err: however I still believe that DD gave Tom Riddle a chance as child.

Melaszka Quote:
Originally Posted by staniw
But we can’t say he is 100% Dumbledore’s man. We’ve seen in HBP people like Lupin saying if you trust Dumbledore you trust his judgement. We don’t see that from Snape. Questioning and doubting Lupin’s appointment in POA, arguing in the forest in HBP, wishing to use dementors in POA. The last one is important. It is understandable why Snape wants revenge on Sirius but he still wanted to use dementors. That’s not Dumbledore, who abhors dementors. A very clear example of Snape not trusting Dumbledore’s way. True loyalty to the man means loyalty to the things he stands for. We don’t have that with Snape. And Snape’s reaction in POA is not the reaction of a 100% loyal man.

Of course this doesn’t need to mean that he is loyal to Voldemort. But it does mean he is not 100% Dumbledore’s man.

And if we see Snape not being 100% Dumbledore’s man we can understand why he was able to kill him.


Snape's continual questioning of DD's decision to hire Lupin seems remarkably to me like Harry's continual questioning of DD's decision to trust Snape, but surely you're not suggesting that Harry's behaviour here shows he's "not 100% Dumbledore's man"?

I agree that the dementor issue is slightly different, because there Snape is prepared to actually do something against DD's will, not merely argue with him.

But we also see Harry act against DD's wishes at times - repeatedly breaking the school rules which DD has set and most noticeably not giving his full attention to the Occlumency lessons, even though DD has stressed how important this is. While this is a less malicious breach of DD's trust than Snape's, it could have far worse consequences.

If we describe anyone who ahs ever gone against DD's wishes asbeing "not 100% Dumbledore's man", I think that probably includes the entire dramatis personae.

I have to go with staniw on this one. Snape and Lupin are two different people. Snape questions DD about Lupin because of personal issues. Through out the series he implies that Lupin was in cahoots with Black to kill Harry purely based on the fact that Lupin and Black were friends at a time when Black was tormenting Snape. (Chances are that Snape knew that Black was never a DE to begin with!) Harry has personal issues with Snape too, no doubt. But heres the rub. Snape was a Death Eater! Snape betrayed the Potter's to their death. Lupin doesn't have anything nearly so dark on his resume.

AlsoI would have to say that most of the school rules that DD has set he has also allowed Harry to get away with breaking, and DD as well as the readers, know why Harry is breaking those rules...I don't know that seems a flimsey arguement to me.

The whole issue of Occlumency is a clear issue of DD not providing Harry with all he needed to know on the subject. He doesn't tell Harry until near the end why he, DD himself, did not want to teach Harry Occlumency. And he also admits to Harry that it was his mistake to think that Harry and Snape could work together after all the old hurts between them.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot
Why have this theme of "choice" all through the book, and then have Dumbledore forcing people to make do-or-die Vows so he can trust them? I don't believe anyone in the Order has to take an Unbreakable Vow, and I don't believe Snape did either.

Indeed. It’s not only here I can’t see Dumbledore forcing other people to so wrong things. This theme of choice is so strong that I don’t think Dumbledore would be forcing someone to kill him.

I have to agree with the above as well. DD just DOESN'T ask people to kill and especially not in front of children. I also think it very telling that Snape used the AK. He could have used other methods of killing DD but the AK seems to be over the top and too personal.

Hey there. New to the forum, but thought i would throw in my two cents.

I believe that Snape is good and i think the evidence is overwhelming. Theres lots of evidence through the books, but i'll stick mainly with HBP.

The first and most important thing to remember is that no matter how many times he was asked, and no matter who asked... DD ALWAYS said that there was no question about Snape's loyalty. That's pretty big.

Next, Hagrid tells HP that he hears DD and Snape arguing, but can't tell what it was about. I have a good feeling that this was DD telling Snape that Snape may have to kill DD. DD hints around that he is getting old, and slow and no longer has use of one of his hands. He actually tells HP, that he is expendable, though HP is not. This also explains the scene on the tower where Snape faces DD. He pushes Draco out of the way. DD pleads with Snape. He says "Severus... please..." Notice he did not say " Severus...No.." Again, i believe he was asking Snape to abide by his earlier wishes and kill him.

Further, when HP catches up with Snape. Snape does not attempt to harm HP. He just blocks all of Harry's attacks. Harry calls him a coward and SNAPE loses it."DO NOT CALL ME A COWARD". I believe that this comment is brought on because Snape has just done a very brave thing, something that HP would not have been able to do, which is kill his Friend and Mentor to protect himself, on the others wishes. I think that DD must feel that it is more important for Snape to continue living, then for himself.

There's more, but i'll leave it at that for now. Let me know what you think.

Snape and Lupin are two different people. Snape questions DD about Lupin because of personal issues. Through out the series he implies that Lupin was in cahoots with Black to kill Harry purely based on the fact that Lupin and Black were friends at a time when Black was tormenting Snape. (Chances are that Snape knew that Black was never a DE to begin with!) Harry has personal issues with Snape too, no doubt. But heres the rub. Snape was a Death Eater! Snape betrayed the Potter's to their death. Lupin doesn't have anything nearly so dark on his resume.

No, but DD has come to his decision about Snape with full knowledge of his resume. So are you saying it's not disloyal to doubt DD's word when he believes something that seems a bit left field to most people, but it is disloyal, and "proves" you're on the bad side, if you doubt his word about someone who has an apparently good resume? Because that seems problematic to me.

When I read PoA trying to look at events from Snape's perspective, it doesn't seem odd to me that he doesn't trust Lupin. He knows that Sirius and Lupin were very close childhood friends. He knows that at least one close friend of James and Lily betrayed them (which would be enough to make many people regard all of their friends with some suspicion from thereon). The vast majority of the "good" wizarding world (including at this stage, let us remember, Lupin himself) believe that Sirius is a DE. The vast majority of the "good" wizarding world also share Snape's prejudices about werewolves. Snape knows that Sirius is hanging around Hogwarts. And conveniently enough, Lupin has begun work at Hogwarts at exactly the same time that Sirius showed up. Snape may be wrong to suspect Lupin, but based on an accumulation of these facts, it doesn't seem an unreasonable suspicion, and it's one that a lot of wizards would probably share.

Yes, I think Snape is arrogant and prejudiced in continuing to insist that he knows better than DD about whether or not Lupin is trustworthy, but I don't think that in itself makes him any less Dumbledore's man than any other character who has ever doubted DD's decisions - including Harry.

No, but DD has come to his decision about Snape with full knowledge of his resume. So are you saying it's not disloyal to doubt DD's word when he believes something that seems a bit left field to most people, but it is disloyal, and "proves" you're on the bad side, if you doubt his word about someone who has an apparently good resume? Because that seems problematic to me.

When I read PoA trying to look at events from Snape's perspective, it doesn't seem odd to me that he doesn't trust Lupin. He knows that Sirius and Lupin were very close childhood friends. He knows that at least one close friend of James and Lily betrayed them (which would be enough to make many people regard all of their friends with some suspicion from thereon). The vast majority of the "good" wizarding world (including at this stage, let us remember, Lupin himself) believe that Sirius is a DE. The vast majority of the "good" wizarding world also share Snape's prejudices about werewolves. Snape knows that Sirius is hanging around Hogwarts. And conveniently enough, Lupin has begun work at Hogwarts at exactly the same time that Sirius showed up. Snape may be wrong to suspect Lupin, but based on an accumulation of these facts, it doesn't seem an unreasonable suspicion, and it's one that a lot of wizards would probably share.

Yes, I think Snape is arrogant and prejudiced in continuing to insist that he knows better than DD about whether or not Lupin is trustworthy, but I don't think that in itself makes him any less Dumbledore's man than any other character who has ever doubted DD's decisions - including Harry
I understand where you are coming from but you can't compare Snape and Harry in the loyalty department. Snape was a bad guy. In other words he already has a mark against him, a mark that would take a lifetime to erase, if it ever could be. Harry has about twenty marks in his favor. Harry has earned the right to ask questions of DD (and imho DD has done him a great disservice by not giving him the answers) Snape, despite his dangerous position has not earned the right to question DD.

Have you ever seen the movie Top Gun? It's a cheesy movie but there is scene where Tom Cruise is getting reamed out by his commander. "Let's face it, your family name isn't exactly clean. You need to be doing it cleaner and better than the other guys. Now what is it with you?" If Snape is indeed "good" and is DDs man he needs to be doing it "cleaner" and "better" than he has been. He can't afford to make enemies with people who he make need as allies later on. Yes he has to be able to effectively lie to Voldemort as well but he has done nothing to endear himself to the Order (or to Harry who Snape may very well need to ally himself with in the future.) Certainly not with his bad attitude, and, as of yet, not by action.

lets all refer back to "spinner's end" in HBP. he's truly loyal to voldemort not dumbledore. duh he's not good but that doesn't mean he cant come back to the good side

Snape's continual questioning of DD's decision to hire Lupin seems remarkably to me like Harry's continual questioning of DD's decision to trust Snape, but surely you're not suggesting that Harry's behaviour here shows he's "not 100% Dumbledore's man"?

I agree that the dementor issue is slightly different, because there Snape is prepared to actually do something against DD's will, not merely argue with him.

But we also see Harry act against DD's wishes at times - repeatedly breaking the school rules which DD has set and most noticeably not giving his full attention to the Occlumency lessons, even though DD has stressed how important this is. While this is a less malicious breach of DD's trust than Snape's, it could have far worse consequences.

If we describe anyone who ahs ever gone against DD's wishes asbeing "not 100% Dumbledore's man", I think that probably includes the entire dramatis personae.
No, just Snape. I made my post in response to a post which ascertains that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, that he always submits to Dumbledore. We don’t see Snape doing that, so from Snape’s actions we don’t see him always being loyal to Dumbledore. This begs the question if Snape shows unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore, if he is Dumbledore’s man for 100%.

You compare Snape to Harry’s questioning Dumbledore. But it is not Harry’s questioning of Dumbledore which makes him Dumbledore’s man. It is his unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore, his sharing of the same core values which makes him Dumbledore’s man. And here I find Snape lacking. Sharing a prejudice against werewolves ("Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works," hissed Snape), bullying students (and he was bullying Neville worse than ever.) are doing things against the grain of Dumbledore’s values. And I pointed out his proposed treatment of Sirius as being rather important in that respect. Dumbledore stands for justice and no dementors. Snape stands for revenge and using dementors.

Those are not small differences between Snape and Dumbledore. Here we see Snape going against the grain of Dumbledore’s beliefs. And I think 100% loyalty to the man means loyalty to the things he stands for. We do see that with Harry, we don’t see that with Snape. Could Snape still be on Dumbledore’s side? Of course he could, but it isn’t driven by unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore.


When I read PoA trying to look at events from Snape's perspective, it doesn't seem odd to me that he doesn't trust Lupin. He knows that Sirius and Lupin were very close childhood friends. He knows that at least one close friend of James and Lily betrayed them (which would be enough to make many people regard all of their friends with some suspicion from thereon). The vast majority of the "good" wizarding world (including at this stage, let us remember, Lupin himself) believe that Sirius is a DE. This was always very odd to me and it shows the deepness of Snape’s grudge that he comes to such an illogical conclusion. Because I thought it was a wise move from Dumbledore to get Lupin when Sirius escaped. In many ways Lupin would be the last person to want Harry dead and the first who would want to get Sirius. The Potters were betrayed and Lupin lost all his friends, his companions from school. Two dead, caused by the third one, the traitor. One might say that aside from Harry Lupin was the one who lost the most because of Sirius’ supposed betrayal. If anyone besides Harry would have wanted revenge for the betrayal of the Potters it would be Lupin, who lost two of his best friends due to Sirius’ actions. So I don’t think it is even remotely likely that because one friend of the Potters betrayed him all friends would be regarded with suspicion. Au contraire. And we know that not all friends were considered with suspicion. Outside Snape not a single teacher ever showed any sign of suspicion about Lupin. Snape’s thinking is the odd one out here. It can be explained by the prank of course, but even so it was rather strange to suspect Lupin.

Harry has earned the right to ask questions of DD (and imho DD has done him a great disservice by not giving him the answers) Snape, despite his dangerous position has not earned the right to question DD.

The person who can make that determination is Dumbledore. Dumbledore knows Snape questioned his decisions in PoA, yet in HBP, he states he trusts Snape completely. I think this proves that in Dumbledore's eyes, Snape has earned the same right. I think that in Book 7, the things Snape has done to earn that right will be revealed.

If Snape is indeed "good" and is DDs man he needs to be doing it "cleaner" and "better" than he has been.

That's what he would need if his goal was to have the reputation of Dumbledore's man, yes. I think it is apparent he does not care about his reputation - his attitude seems to be that if people can't see his worth, then they are not worth bothering with. Probably an attitude he acquired in the course of a difficult childhood.

I honestly don't know how the heck could Snape be good or even become good since killing Voldemort. But I do like the character.

Snape is evil in the Harry Potter sense of the word because he will not die for Dumbledore. Once the Unbreakable Vow was made (his hand twitched because he was afraid Dumbledore would kill him if he made the vow, and Narcissa would kill him if he didn't) Snape has to kill Dumbledore or die, hence the "Unbreakable" part of the vow. Snape, like Pettigrew and Voldemort before him, would rather commit murder than die, which seems to be the mark of the "evil" characters of HP.

I can never decide, yet I am more inclined to believe that Snape is good, but a slimy git. One reason I believe this is the last part of HPOotP. Snape could have pretended he did not understsnd harry's warning and gone on with his day. Since he is also an accomplished legilimens. Therefore there would have been no reprocussions to his inaction.

No, just Snape. I made my post in response to a post which ascertains that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, that he always submits to Dumbledore. We don’t see Snape doing that, so from Snape’s actions we don’t see him always being loyal to Dumbledore. This begs the question if Snape shows unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore, if he is Dumbledore’s man for 100%.

Apologies - I didn't see the earlier point so i was reading yours slightly out of context.

Nonetheless, IMO we do see Snape submit to DD on numerous occasions. Although he argues against DD's views on several occasions, when he has the chance to act against DD's views without DD's permission (i.e. when DD is suspended and Umbridge becomes head - the perfect opportunity, you would have thought, for Snape to push for his apparent goal of having Harry expelled against DD's wishes - he doesn't take that opportunity.)

I know he does act against DD's wishes when he threatens to throw Sirius to the Dementors. My reading of that has always been that he genuinely believes he is punishing a traitor, on whom DD has been too soft. Even though that still makes him deeply unpleasant - arrogant enough to believe that he knows better than DD, hypocritical enough to deny to Sirius the mercy which DD has shown him - and not "good" in an absolute moral sense, it's still consistent with him being "good", as in "not on Voldemort's die".

You compare Snape to Harry’s questioning Dumbledore. But it is not Harry’s questioning of Dumbledore which makes him Dumbledore’s man. It is his unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore, his sharing of the same core values which makes him Dumbledore’s man. And here I find Snape lacking. Sharing a prejudice against werewolves ("Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works," hissed Snape), bullying students (and he was bullying Neville worse than ever.) are doing things against the grain of Dumbledore’s values. And I pointed out his proposed treatment of Sirius as being rather important in that respect. Dumbledore stands for justice and no dementors. Snape stands for revenge and using dementors.

Those are not small differences between Snape and Dumbledore. Here we see Snape going against the grain of Dumbledore’s beliefs. And I think 100% loyalty to the man means loyalty to the things he stands for. We do see that with Harry, we don’t see that with Snape. Could Snape still be on Dumbledore’s side? Of course he could, but it isn’t driven by unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore.

True, but he's by no means the only Order member who goes gainst DD's values at times. Sirius's treatment of Kreacher, for example. The majority of wizards share Snape's prejudice against werewolves - that's the reason why Lupin had to leave. Yes, Snape's malicious revelation of Lupin's real identity was the trigger, but he wouldn't have had to leave if large numbers of wizards shared DD's enlightened views.

And Harry falls short of DD's standards at times, too - when he borrows the Weasleys' car to fly to Hogwarts without thinking of the posible consequences in terms of Arthur's job, when he takes credit for Potions work that isn't his. Yes, these are more excusable flaws (a) because he's only a child, while Snape is a grown man (b) because they're smaller flaws in themselves. But I suppose my point is that I've always seen DD as being like god - hsi standards are ideals to which we should all strive to aspire, but all of us will fall short of them at times.

This was always very odd to me and it shows the deepness of Snape’s grudge that he comes to such an illogical conclusion. Because I thought it was a wise move from Dumbledore to get Lupin when Sirius escaped. In many ways Lupin would be the last person to want Harry dead and the first who would want to get Sirius.

Do we have canon on how Lupin's appointment was arranged? Did DD contact Lupin out of the blue, or did Lupin ask for the job? Because if it were the latter, I don't think it unreasonable of Snape to be suspicious at the simultaneity of Sirius escaping and one of his erstwhile closest friends applying for a key position of responsibility at Hogwarts. If, as you suggest, it was DD who sought him out to protect Harry, that does put a different complexion on things.

You compare Snape to Harry’s questioning Dumbledore. But it is not Harry’s questioning of Dumbledore which makes him Dumbledore’s man. It is his unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore, his sharing of the same core values which makes him Dumbledore’s man. And here I find Snape lacking. Sharing a prejudice against werewolves ("Don't ask me to fathom the way a werewolf's mind works," hissed Snape), bullying students (and he was bullying Neville worse than ever.) are doing things against the grain of Dumbledore’s values. And I pointed out his proposed treatment of Sirius as being rather important in that respect. Dumbledore stands for justice and no dementors. Snape stands for revenge and using dementors.

With regards to the dementors issue it is fair to say that Snape has huge resentment and dislike of Sirius which is fair considering that Sirius was for lack of a better word bullying Snape. Therefore it is not unreaonable for Snape to want revenge on someone that he thought had betrayed the Potters and who Snape was prejudiced against. No one thinks any less of Harry because he wanted to use the dementors on Pettigrew. Whilst Harry's family were personally involved I think the only reason Snape was so willing to use dementors is his deep felt resentment of someone who wasn't particularly nice to him. If for example Snape wanted to use dementors against someone who had been kind to him then I think it might be a valid point to use against him as signs of him being evil but even the most noble of us find it hard to not take revenge against someone who has done wrong to us when given the chance.

Do we have canon on how Lupin's appointment was arranged? Did DD contact Lupin out of the blue, or did Lupin ask for the job? Because if it were the latter, I don't think it unreasonable of Snape to be suspicious at the simultaneity of Sirius escaping and one of his erstwhile closest friends applying for a key position of responsibility at Hogwarts. If, as you suggest, it was DD who sought him out to protect Harry, that does put a different complexion on things.
I have to say I never even considered the possibility that Lupin sought Dumbledore instead of the other way round. I see Dumbledore seeking the professor but not the other way round. I don’t think we have real canon on this, so it could go either way. But with all the protections (of which Harry is blissfully unaware) which come into place to stop Sirius I just think that it is Dumbledore (who tries to protect Hary by all means) who gets Lupin to Hogwarts.

We see Dumbledore seeking the professor, like Dumbledore getting Moody out of retirement, or getting Slughorn back to Hogwarts. I believe the only exception is Umbridge for reasons known.
I suppose my point is that I've always seen DD as being like god - hsi standards are ideals to which we should all strive to aspire, but all of us will fall short of them at times.
Yes, I see all of them, including Dumbledore himself, falling sort of his standards. But someone like Harry, even though he can’t keep up to the letter of Dumbledore’s standard, certainly is able to keep up with the spirit of Dumbledore’s standards. Snape, however, has transgressions which go against not just the letter of Dumbledore’s standard but against the spirit as well.

It’s like with the unforgivables. Harry tries to use cruciatus. Certainly against Dumbledore’s standard. But he couldn’t (even unwittingly) perform it because he doesn’t have it in him. He is true to Dumbledore’s spirit in that respect. Snape, we know, can effectively use an unforgivable. For all his anger at Bella in OOTP and Snape in HBP we don’t even see Harry trying an AK.

Harry couldn’t kill in POA. Nor Sirius, nor Peter. So even when Harry is enraged and lusting for revenge he still stays loyal to Dumbledore’s spirit, he still has a pureness of heart. I have no doubt that Snape could kill is such a situation and in doing so isn’t loyal to the spirit of what Dumbledore stands for.

Now, I don’t think that Snape is the only one on Dumbledore’s side who can’t keep up with Dumbledore’s standard. And not keeping up with Dumbledore’s standard is not a reason in itself to assume Snape is not on Dumbledore’s side. But it opens the possibility….

Dumbledore’s spirit, the things he stands for, does really mean in my opinion that he wouldn’t ask Snape to murder him. "Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them." is what we are told about Dumbledore’s methods compared with Voldemort’s. It’s not that Dumbledore couldn’t ask Snape to murder, it’s more that the Dumbledore we’re shown wouldn’t ask someone to murder. In all the books we have not seen Dumbledore, with all his schemes, asking someone to do something evil. And I don’t think we ever will.

Dumbledore’s emphasis on the power of love, of the strength of an untarnished soul, does not point to creating a complicated scheme involving murder just for the cause. The end justifies the means is not what Dumbledore stands for because his means are based on the love and things like that. Self defence, which he is hinting at what will end Voldemort, is one thing but active murder is quit another thing. And notice how Dumbledore impresses upon Harry that he can choose when they discuss the end of Voldemort and Harry’s part in this. Is this a man who would effectively take Snape’s choice away?

This brings us back to Snape. Loyal to Voldemort (because he does what Voldemort wants, he acts in Voldemort’s spirit) and loyal to Harry (because he protects him) are the constant values we see from Snape. It gives us a nice plot for Snape in DH, but it doesn’t give us a loyal to Dumbledore Snape who murdered him on his orders.

the more I follow this thread the more I admire JKR she has given both side really good arguments and I'm sure this is wah she wanted us to doubt all things we tought that were never changing ;2 of them are:
Dumbledore will always remain at hogwarts
Harry loathes Snape and vica versa but Snape'll allways rescue Harry when he's in any real trouble and will remain loyal to DD

Dumbledore will always remain at Hogwarts as long as people speak loyal of him...
Also Snape helped Harry with the Occlumency classes and saved him on the quidditch pitch in the first year! I think Snape killed Dumbledore because he wanted to save Draco... I think that Snape knew that Draco wouldn't be able to kill Dumbledore so he saved him from his execution and killed Dumbledore for him! Voldemort would of killed Draco if he had failed to kill Dumbledore!

NO!! Snape is not good! He was supposed to be at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledor, and may have got a little distracted on the way. He is still a Death Eater, and he will not come back to the good side. In[U]Half Blood Prince[U] he ran off with Malfoy. Once a Death Eater, Always a Death Eater.

I have to say I never even considered the possibility that Lupin sought Dumbledore instead of the other way round. I see Dumbledore seeking the professor but not the other way round. I don’t think we have real canon on this, so it could go either way. But with all the protections (of which Harry is blissfully unaware) which come into place to stop Sirius I just think that it is Dumbledore (who tries to protect Hary by all means) who gets Lupin to Hogwarts.

But we also have canon that Trelawney and Snape both took the initiative to apply for their jobs, they weren't invited by DD first, so Umbridge is not the exception. I've always assumed that by a bizarre coincidence Lupin happened to apply at the exact time Sirius came to Hogwarts - a coincidence which would make many suspicious.

Harry couldn’t kill in POA. Nor Sirius, nor Peter.

Ahem...

"Not at all, Padfoot, old friend," said Lupin, who was now rolling up his sleeves. "And will you, in turn, forgive me for believing you were the spy?"

"Of course," said Black, and the ghost of a grin flitted across his gaunt face. He, too, began rolling up his sleeves. "Shall we kill him together?"

"Yes, I think so," said Lupin grimly.

The minute they realise Pettigrew is definitely the traitor, they start rolling up their sleeves in preparation to kill him. Lupin, at least, has the grace to feel "grim" at the prospect, but Sirius actually grins. The only thing that stops them is Harry, and even then they both look "staggered" at his request that they spare Pettigrew. Sirius even tries to dissuade him "But think...think what he did..". So they could have killed quite easily, they could have gone against DD's code, were it not for Harry's intervention.

So, to relate this to the topic at hand, while Snape may not be as pure in heart as Harry, I don't believe that he alone out of the Order acts against Dumbledore's spirit.

Dumbledore’s emphasis on the power of love, of the strength of an untarnished soul, does not point to creating a complicated scheme involving murder just for the cause. The end justifies the means is not what Dumbledore stands for because his means are based on the love and things like that. Self defence, which he is hinting at what will end Voldemort, is one thing but active murder is quit another thing. And notice how Dumbledore impresses upon Harry that he can choose when they discuss the end of Voldemort and Harry’s part in this. Is this a man who would effectively take Snape’s choice away?

This brings us back to Snape. Loyal to Voldemort (because he does what Voldemort wants, he acts in Voldemort’s spirit) and loyal to Harry (because he protects him) are the constant values we see from Snape. It gives us a nice plot for Snape in DH, but it doesn’t give us a loyal to Dumbledore Snape who murdered him on his orders.

I don't believe that DD asked Snape to kill him just so that Snape wouldn't have to break his Unbreakable Vow. That makes no sense to me, either in terms of utility to the order (surely DD is far more valuable in the fight against Voldemort?) or in terms of DD's psychology and values, as you point out. I believe that there is something else going on here - either the potion from the cave killed DD at the exact moment when Snape threw the AK to make it look like he killed him, or it may be a situation like in Alien 3, where a good character needs to sacrifice themselves because they are being eaten away from the inside by evil forces which will infect the rest of their side if they don't die first (in DD's case, because of the potion, not because he's got an alien in his stomach!) or something else like that. Or it may be effecting some powerful magic to save mankind.

I see DD's death very much as a symbolic crucifixion, willingly chosen (the potion-drinking is very reminscent of the garden of Gethsemane, DD's words about always being present in Hogwarts while there are those there who espouse his values also seem to be consciously parallelling Christ). I'm aware that I'm slightly shooting myself in the foot here, as this tends to suggest that Snape is Judas, but the point I'm trying to make is that I can't see DD as being taken surprised by his death, or pleading with Snape to save him, as it doesn't fit with the crucifixion parallel that JKR seems to have set up. If he is a symbolic Christ, then surely his death must be planned and willingly embraced (and hence not murder)?

And I don't think he has taken Snape's choice away. At the end of GoF he asks him "Are you willing?", and in HBP Hagrid overhears Snape saying that maybe he doesn't want to do it anymore. If what Snape does is preagreed between them, I think it's by mutual consent.

As I've said before, though, my real, core reasons for believing in Snape's loyalty to the Order are linguistic, rather than character-based. I can't see the denouement of HBP being written in such ambiguous language if JKR weren't deliberately hiding something from us, if it weren't more than the snape-heartlessly-murdering-Dumbledore that it appears to be at first glance.

That's what he would need if his goal was to have the reputation of Dumbledore's man, yes. I think it is apparent he does not care about his reputation - his attitude seems to be that if people can't see his worth, then they are not worth bothering with. Probably an attitude he acquired in the course of a difficult childhood.


Under normal circumstances, I would agree. Unfortunately Snape is hardly in "normal circumstances". He is a double agent. That isn't somethig you can do all by yourself, no matter how talented you are. You need people to trust you enough to pass you information, you need people to trust you enough to keep your cover, you need people to trust you enough to protect you if you're found out, you need people to trust you enough to fight along side you. Snape hasn't earned any trust on his own, he is being given leeway on DD say so. Now DD is gone and what does Snape have to his name? Nothing as far as the order is concerned. And he is sure to need the Order AND Harry at some point. Even if he works from within Voldemorts ranks to bring about the DL downfall, at some point he WILL need someone to trust him and he simply hasn't engendered anyones trust.

I have to say I never even considered the possibility that Lupin sought Dumbledore instead of the other way round. I see Dumbledore seeking the professor but not the other way round. I don’t think we have real canon on this, so it could go either way. But with all the protections (of which Harry is blissfully unaware) which come into place to stop Sirius I just think that it is Dumbledore (who tries to protect Hary by all means) who gets Lupin to Hogwarts.

To lend a little more credence to this theory, Staniw, in OotP when Umbridge is first rought on board due to a ministry decree to the effect of "...in case the headmaster can not find a suitable replacement for a teaching post the ministry reserves the right to appoint a ministry approved teacher..."

I know that this decree wasn't in effect in PoA but I used it to underscore the fact that the headmaster has the ultimate authority. I am sure that DD was well aware of Lupin's past (he made him prefect in the hopes that Lupin could tame the Marauders) but DD obviously thought Lupin was a suitable replacement. If Lupin had applied it certainly does not mean that DD needed to hire him.

Dumbledore’s spirit, the things he stands for, does really mean in my opinion that he wouldn’t ask Snape to murder him. "Only because you're too -- well -- noble to use them." is what we are told about Dumbledore’s methods compared with Voldemort’s. It’s not that Dumbledore couldn’t ask Snape to murder, it’s more that the Dumbledore we’re shown wouldn’t ask someone to murder. In all the books we have not seen Dumbledore, with all his schemes, asking someone to do something evil. And I don’t think we ever will.

I totally agree with the above. While I agree that DD would sacrifice himself for his friends and family, heck even a muggle off the street, he WOULD NOT ask someone to kill him.

Now someone will ask, if Harry is so loyal to DD spirit then why did he ask DD to kill him when he was being possessed by Voldemort? First Harry never asks. He thinks about it, but he doesn't directly ask DD to do it. At the time that Harry thinks this he is not in possession of his own body. He was sharing feelings, thoughts, and emotions with Voldemort. He was in terrible pain. All he wanted was peace and his family. In other words, Harry was hardly rational. I'm sure that had Harry only been grievously injured and not possessed by Voldemort, he would not have asked DD to kill him. (maybe he would have thrown himself off a balcony but he wouldn't ask DD to kill him)

Snape is evil in the Harry Potter sense of the word because he will not die for Dumbledore. Once the Unbreakable Vow was made (his hand twitched because he was afraid Dumbledore would kill him if he made the vow, and Narcissa would kill him if he didn't) Snape has to kill Dumbledore or die, hence the "Unbreakable" part of the vow. Snape, like Pettigrew and Voldemort before him, would rather commit murder than die, which seems to be the mark of the "evil" characters of HP.

While I don't agree with the hand twitching part the rest is presented perfectly. Of course DD would want to sacrifice himself for another person. That is never in question. But if Snape was realistic he would have known that DD is far more important in the fight against Voldemort and to Harry than Snape himself is. Maybe he did want to sacrifice himself (hence the conversation in the forest between he and DD) at some point but when push came to shove he opted for his own life. He may try to justify to himself that that was what DD wanted, but what it boils down to is that he DIDN't die rather than betray his friends.

Now people want to compare what Snape did to DD (supposedly on DD orders) to what Harry did (on DD orders) in the cave. My question is how can you even make that comparison? In the cave Harry was desperately thinking of ways to try to help DD even while he was obeying DD orders.

I know he does act against DD's wishes when he threatens to throw Sirius to the Dementors. My reading of that has always been that he genuinely believes he is punishing a traitor, on whom DD has been too soft. Even though that still makes him deeply unpleasant - arrogant enough to believe that he knows better than DD, hypocritical enough to deny to Sirius the mercy which DD has shown him - and not "good" in an absolute moral sense, it's still consistent with him being "good", as in "not on Voldemort's die".


Even there, it is my opinion that, in the end, when Dumbledore makes clear to him that he himself arranged the escape, Snape ceases with the making of accusations to Fudge. I think Dumbledore knows Snape knows Hermione has a Time-Turner, and this is why he is amused - he has managed to let Snape know what happened without cluing in Fudge. (Sorry, one of my favorite little bits of PoA...)


"Well, there you have it, Severus," said Dumbledore calmly. "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further."

Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward.


Yes, Snape's malicious revelation of Lupin's real identity was the trigger, but he wouldn't have had to leave if large numbers of wizards shared DD's enlightened views.

At the time Snape revealed this to Fudge, he believed Lupin was Sirius's accomplice, and Lupin was in fact loose on the grounds of the school in werewolf form. I would not characterize that as malicious.

If, as you suggest, it was DD who sought him out to protect Harry, that does put a different complexion on things.

We are not told. Dumbledore does advertise the position (mentioned in CoS) but with the shady reputation the position has acquired, it is possible noone, including Lupin, applied. At any rate, Snape voices his objections before the school year, and then goes along with Dumbledore's plan (in which he must play an active part, since he is the person capabale of making the potion for Lupin). We first see him bring up his suspicions again after it seems that Sirius must have an accomplice. I don't see why Snape settling on Lupin is so odd. He does not know about the Marauders' map and Marauders' knowledge of all the secret passages, nor does he know Sirius is an Animagus. Is there a more logical suspect, with what Snape knows?

Snape hasn't earned any trust on his own, he is being given leeway on DD say so. Now DD is gone and what does Snape have to his name? Nothing as far as the order is concerned. And he is sure to need the Order AND Harry at some point. Even if he works from within Voldemorts ranks to bring about the DL downfall, at some point he WILL need someone to trust him and he simply hasn't engendered anyones trust.

An excellent analysis of why Snape's attitude makes for bad strategy. All it means, though, is that if Snape is a good guy, he is in a world of trouble he has partly helped to create. It does not prove he is a bad guy.

Now someone will ask, if Harry is so loyal to DD spirit then why did he ask DD to kill him when he was being possessed by Voldemort? First Harry never asks. He thinks about it, but he doesn't directly ask DD to do it.

Interesting parallel! I had never thought about it before. Of course, in the tower scene the difference is that Dumbledore knows full well that Snape can know what he is thinking (an idea that does not occur to Harry, though he tries to make use of the same principle earlier in the book, when he tries to make Snape see what he believes is happening to Sirius). In fact, I believe that in this moment,


Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
"Severus ... please ..."


Dumbledore let Snape see what he wanted Snape to do. This is what Snape was waiting for - he only killed Dumbledore after he was asked to.

Now people want to compare what Snape did to DD (supposedly on DD orders) to what Harry did (on DD orders) in the cave. My question is how can you even make that comparison? In the cave Harry was desperately thinking of ways to try to help DD even while he was obeying DD orders.

In the Cave, Harry did not have the lives of others to worry about. Snape's action arguably saved Harry and Draco as well.

I don't care what anyone says, Snape killed Dumbledore and made Harry's life at Hogwarts a somewhat Hell, so I cannot, and will not forgive him, and even if he IS good, then I will still feel the same way.

At the time Snape revealed this to Fudge, he believed Lupin was Sirius's accomplice, and Lupin was in fact loose on the grounds of the school in werewolf form. I would not characterize that as malicious.

I was referring to his revelation to the Slytherins at breakfast the following morning that Lupin is a werewolf (Hagrid: "Snape told all the Slytherins this mornin' ", Lupin "he -er-accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast"). By that stage he does know that DD believes Lupin and Sirius to be innocent and Lupin is no longer roaming the grounds howling.

Lupin attributes this revelation to Snape's disappointment at not getting the Order of the Merlin, because DD has convinced Fudge that Lupin was innocent (and thus Snape deserves no credit for "saving" the trio from him). In other words, Lupin attributes it to spite and malice.

However, characters' theories about each others' motives often need to be treated with suspicion. I suppose it is just possible that Snape genuinely believed Lupin to be a danger to the students (in fairness, even LUPIN believes that Lupin is a danger to the students!), and it's undeniable that SOMEONE or something had to force Lupin out of Hogwarts for plot reasons, so JKR may just have given Snape this role for mechanical, not character revelation purposes, but it's still an example of Snape ignoring DD's wishes and thinking he knows best, whatever.

And now I'm starting to sound like a bad-Snaper! Quel horreur!

I don't see why Snape settling on Lupin is so odd. He does not know about the Marauders' map and Marauders' knowledge of all the secret passages, nor does he know Sirius is an Animagus. Is there a more logical suspect, with what Snape knows?

I totally agree! And thanks for the quotation about DD advertising the position. It strengthens my feeling that Lupin applied and was not sought out, which would make his arrival at Hogwarts at the exact moment that Sirius escapes Azkaban seem like a premeditated plot. But I agree that, even without this, there are enough grounds for a reasonable man, not in full possession of the facts, to suspect Lupin, even if DD invited him.

An excellent analysis of why Snape's attitude makes for bad strategy. All it means, though, is that if Snape is a good guy, he is in a world of trouble he has partly helped to create. It does not prove he is a bad guy.

Ah! I never said that it proved that he was a bad guy. It is just one thing among many things that tips the scales as it were.


Interesting parallel! I had never thought about it before. Of course, in the tower scene the difference is that Dumbledore knows full well that Snape can know what he is thinking (an idea that does not occur to Harry, though he tries to make use of the same principle earlier in the book, when he tries to make Snape see what he believes is happening to Sirius). In fact, I believe that in this moment,

HBP
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
"Severus ... please ..."



Dumbledore let Snape see what he wanted Snape to do. This is what Snape was waiting for - he only killed Dumbledore after he was asked to.

I have to politely point out that this particular quote is supposition, upon supposition. For that whole tower scene to work as you claim you have to suppose that

1)Spinners End was one huge bluff that got out of control.
2)That DD was aware of the UV
3)That Snape was going to sacrifice himself on the rooftop
4)That Snape used legilimency/occlumency to figure out DD wishes

You can't, in my mind, use supposition to confirm supposition. At least one of those four things has to be verifiable 100%. None of them are.

In the Cave, Harry did not have the lives of others to worry about. Snape's action arguably saved Harry and Draco as well.

Harry was already safe. Had DD lived Draco and Narcissa would have been safe as well. Why go through all the trouble to convince Draco that the order would protect him if he wasn't going to be alive to make it so?

However, characters' theories about each others' motives often need to be treated with suspicion. I suppose it is just possible that Snape genuinely believed Lupin to be a danger to the students (in fairness, even LUPIN believes that Lupin is a danger to the students!), and it's undeniable that SOMEONE or something had to force Lupin out of Hogwarts for plot reasons, so JKR may just have given Snape this role for mechanical, not character revelation purposes, but it's still an example of Snape ignoring DD's wishes and thinking he knows best, whatever.

I am not trying to say Snape's action with the Slytherins was done to protect the students. My position is that by the time Snape told the Slytherins, the cat was already let out of the bag (by Snape, true, but under what he believed were exigent circumstances and before Dumbledore had any chance to express his preferences). The Ministry would not have kept the secret, and Lupin would not have kept his job. Snape was simply sharing with his students information they would be learning from some source or other in the near future.

Rowling, I believe, could have played it that way - blamed it all on the Ministry. (This is the year Umbridge's infamous anti-werewolf legislation passed, was it not?) I think she wrote it as she did, with Lupin's emphasis on Snape's revelation at the breakfast table, to make Snape look bad.

I totally agree! And thanks for the quotation about DD advertising the position.

I didn't actually post it, lazy...:D Here we go:


"What you need, Harry, is some food and sleep. I suggest you go down to the feast, while I write to Azkaban -- we need our gamekeeper back. And I must draft an advertisement for the Daily Prophet, too," he added thoughtfully. "We'll be needing a new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher... Dear me, we do seem to run through them, don't we?"



1)Spinners End was one huge bluff that got out of control.

I do not believe it was a bluff. Snape knew what the task was. I believe assigning that task to Draco and telling Snape all about it was a test of Snape's loyalties by Voldemort, and Snape knew it. "He wants me to do it in the end, I believe".

Also, if he is disloyal, he could have made his life sooo much easier by simply letting Dumbledore die of the ring curse, and not having to worry how he would eventually kill Dumbledore for the Dark Lord. Then he could go to both the Order and the Dark Lord with the sad tale of how he was not able to save Dumbledore.

2)That DD was aware of the UV

There is independent evidence to support this idea in the books. (Also to refute it - we do not know one way or the other). Evidence for is that Dumbledore claims to know what Draco is up to from the start (Snape is the most likely source of that information), and his response to Harry's telling him about the UV is that Harry might consider that he, Dumbledore, understands more about it that Harry does. Also, it appears Harry's news did not shake Dumbledore's confidence in Snape.

3)That Snape was going to sacrifice himself on the rooftop

Why was Dumbledore instantly desperate, the moment the man he trusts completely showed up? It requires an explanation. The one that seems to fit, for me, is that he fears this is indeed the case, and wishes to prevent it.

4)That Snape used legilimency/occlumency to figure out DD wishes

Yes, I agree, all I have to go on is the word 'gaze'.

You can't, in my mind, use supposition to confirm supposition. At least one of those four things has to be verifiable 100%. None of them are.

All explanations of Snape's actions on the tower are based on supposition. I have yet to read one that is not.

Harry was already safe. Had DD lived Draco and Narcissa would have been safe as well.

I do not believe, at the moment on the tower when the decision was made, that Dumbledore could have lived without Snape's help. Because of the Vow, Snape literally could not help him. Not because he's a coward, but because the Vow would kill him before he could succeed. Dead men cannot help anyone.

So, supposing Snape tried to help and was instantly felled by the Vow, we would be back to where we were before Snape showed up: four Death Eaters and Draco with Dumbledore disarmed and so weak he could not stand. And Harry frozen, but only for the moment - once Draco or another Death Eater killed Dumbledore, Harry would be free to act, and I don't think he would have stayed quietly under the cloak, however sensible such an action might be.

I don't care what anyone says, Snape killed Dumbledore and made Harry's life at Hogwarts a somewhat Hell, so I cannot, and will not forgive him, and even if he IS good, then I will still feel the same way.

I think Harry would agree with you completely on that! :welcome: to CoS!

I'm a fan of the DIATSSISE theory. I think there is way to much proof to not believe it.

Remember though, Snape HAS saved Harry's life. And, who knows, there could be some BIG thing revealed in DH about exactly the extent of what Snape has done. After all, not every good person is plesent. As Sirius said, "'Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters.'" Snape might not be the most plesent person on Earth, or anywhere near, but he can still be good.
As Dumbledore said, "'Some wouds are too deep to heal.'"
Snape could never forgive Harry for all James did, and I have to say James wasn't exactly great to Snape. James made Snape's life a sorta hell, didn't he? But still, Snape saved Harry's life. And we never know what we will learn about him in DH.

Also, if he is disloyal, he could have made his life sooo much easier by simply letting Dumbledore die of the ring curse, and not having to worry how he would eventually kill Dumbledore for the Dark Lord. Then he could go to both the Order and the Dark Lord with the sad tale of how he was not able to save Dumbledore.

zgirnius, do we know the time frame of when Snape takes the UV vs when DD went after the ring? We know less about the terms of a UV than we do about the FC (I despise the Fidelius Charm:lol: ) If DD went for the ring after Snape made the UV then by letting DD die Snape would have been violating the terms of the UV (ie killing DD if Draco could not) Other than that Snape is on tenterhooks since at least GOF. It is in Snape's best interest by HBP to have both DD and Voldemort alive and kicking. He can't be a double spy (which is how he has survived this long) with out having two sides to manipulate and play off.

I do not believe it was a bluff. Snape knew what the task was. I believe assigning that task to Draco and telling Snape all about it was a test of Snape's loyalties by Voldemort, and Snape knew it. "He wants me to do it in the end, I believe".

By this do you mean that you feel that Snape was backed into a corner by Narcissa and Bellatrix into taking the UV? That is a possibilty...hmmm...who was it who suggested the UV? Narcissa?

Also, if he is disloyal, he could have made his life sooo much easier by simply letting Dumbledore die of the ring curse, and not having to worry how he would eventually kill Dumbledore for the Dark Lord. Then he could go to both the Order and the Dark Lord with the sad tale of how he was not able to save Dumbledore.

This sounds to me like you believe that the UV was taken before DD destroyed the ring. See above for my thoughts on that.

There is independent evidence to support this idea in the books. (Also to refute it - we do not know one way or the other). Evidence for is that Dumbledore claims to know what Draco is up to from the start (Snape is the most likely source of that information), and his response to Harry's telling him about the UV is that Harry might consider that he, Dumbledore, understands more about it that Harry does. Also, it appears Harry's news did not shake Dumbledore's confidence in Snape

I have talked with other posters on this same subject. It's DD line to Draco on the Tower "Of course that is what he would tell you..." That convinces me that DD did NOT know of the UV. If he had the more appropriate line would be just what he said to Harry "I think I know more than you do.." etc etc. In my opinion HBP was all about showing that Harry was NOT always wrong. DD admits in OotP that Harry would have been better off with more knowledge that DD was withholding out of love. I mean when, exactly, did DD ever plan on putting his full trust in Harry?

All explanations of Snape's actions on the tower are based on supposition. I have yet to read one that is not.

I agree with you whole heartedly on that but I think that we as readers need to stop looking for double meanings and take more things at face value.

I do not believe, at the moment on the tower when the decision was made, that Dumbledore could have lived without Snape's help. Because of the Vow, Snape literally could not help him. Not because he's a coward, but because the Vow would kill him before he could succeed. Dead men cannot help anyone.

So, supposing Snape tried to help and was instantly felled by the Vow, we would be back to where we were before Snape showed up: four Death Eaters and Draco with Dumbledore disarmed and so weak he could not stand. And Harry frozen, but only for the moment - once Draco or another Death Eater killed Dumbledore, Harry would be free to act, and I don't think he would have stayed quietly under the cloak, however sensible such an action might be.

I agree with you that DD probably wouldn't have survived without Snape's help. But DD knowing about the UV makes things almost too convoluted. You would think that he would want to get the Draco mess cleared up before going Horcrux Hunting. Since he knew that he was going to bare most of the burden of destroying the locket he also likely knew that he would be somewhat incapicitated, and then heaven forbiden Draco should decide to strike while he was incapicitated and needed Snape, because then Snape couldn't help him.....***stops to catch breath*** do you see what I mean? That's just too many contingencies to plan for, even for a great man like DD.

As to the second part, the thing that gets me is that Snape doesn't fight downstairs. In fact he stuns Flitwick, but no DE. Had he fought downstairs it is quite possible that some of the Order would have been on the tower to help out DD if indeed Snape somehow went *poof*

Despite my counter arguments you have made me reevaluate my opinion on Spinner's End. It is at least a possibilty that Snape felt backed into the UV instead of his bluff getting eyond his control...food for thought. Good Job.:tu:

Quote from RobertABlack [Next, Hagrid tells HP that he hears DD and Snape arguing, but can't tell what it was about. I have a good feeling that this was DD telling Snape that Snape may have to kill DD. DD hints around that he is getting old, and slow and no longer has use of one of his hands. He actually tells HP, that he is expendable, though HP is not. This also explains the scene on the tower where Snape faces DD. He pushes Draco out of the way. DD pleads with Snape. He says "Severus... please..." Notice he did not say " Severus...No.." Again, i believe he was asking Snape to abide by his earlier wishes and kill him.]

exactly my point! I believe this argument Hagrid heard between Snape and Dumbledore (405 in US hardcover) is the key!!! :cool:

zgirnius, do we know the time frame of when Snape takes the UV vs when DD went after the ring? We know less about the terms of a UV than we do about the FC (I despise the Fidelius Charm:lol: ) If DD went for the ring after Snape made the UV then by letting DD die Snape would have been violating the terms of the UV (ie killing DD if Draco could not)

Snape refers to an injury Dumbledore sustained since the battle, while talking to Bella and Cissy at Spinner's End. I take that to mean his hand, so I think the ring came first. What is less clear to me is what happened first, the ring injury or Snape learning of Draco's orders. I lean towards learning of Draco's orders, because I think Voldemort took action quickly after the MoM debacle. In it he got angrier at Lucius, failed to kill Dumbledore, and had to wonder why the Order showed up (Snape?). The plan he came up with seems to have addressed all three of these newly pressing issues.

Other than that Snape is on tenterhooks since at least GOF. It is in Snape's best interest by HBP to have both DD and Voldemort alive and kicking. He can't be a double spy (which is how he has survived this long) with out having two sides to manipulate and play off.

He can with Dumbledore dead, so long as the Order still believe he is on their side. That would be the beauty of letting Dumbledore die. He would not have to do the thing Voldemort wants that will put him on Voldemort's side (murder of Dumbledore), and he would still be considered on the Order's side as a spy. He would be putting off the time when he might be forced to pick a side.

By this do you mean that you feel that Snape was backed into a corner by Narcissa and Bellatrix into taking the UV? That is a possibilty...hmmm...who was it who suggested the UV? Narcissa?

Cissy suggested it, yes. And Bella scoffed about how Snape always slithers out of action. Good cop, bad cop? Could be. Or it is just their personalities. :D

This sounds to me like you believe that the UV was taken before DD destroyed the ring. See above for my thoughts on that.

No, I think it definitely happened after, see also above!

I have talked with other posters on this same subject. It's DD line to Draco on the Tower "Of course that is what he would tell you..." That convinces me that DD did NOT know of the UV.
Yes, I am aware of this general sentiment, having discussed the scene with others who see it as you do. Rowling carefully left clues that could point either way. That little 'but-' in the Tower scene can certainly be interpreted as you do. It is offset by the scene I point to, and we are left awaiting July 21. :D

In my opinion HBP was all about showing that Harry was NOT always wrong.

I agree. Harry's rightness was in suspecting Draco, and in not underestimating how much havoc Draco could wreak, in my opinion. I believe Dumbledore, and possibly also Snape, did. Not in terms of character - Dumbledore seems to have been right about Draco's lack of true murderous intent, but in terms of capability. He did not guess that Draco could succeed in getting Death Eaters into the castle, and dismissed Harry's concern about Draco's celebration in "The Seer Overheard".

In "The Cave" Dumbledore comments on the magic boat, which allows one adult wizard, but an underage wizard does not count. He makes a comment about Voldemort, and the mistakes of age underestimating youth. I always thought that comment was foreshadowing, or ironic, since I think Dumbledore made the same mistake regarding Draco.

I agree with you whole heartedly on that but I think that we as readers need to stop looking for double meanings and take more things at face value.

It seems to me that Snape, especially in HBP but really throughout the series, is written in such a way that it is hard to see what the face value is... For example, "Spinner's End". Face value - Snape is revealed as a bad guy being buddy-buddy with his fellow Death Eaters (and sympathizers, I think Cissy leaves the Death Eating to her hubby), right?

Only he lies and conceals things from them on a couple of issues. Why? It opens the door to considering the possibility that a lot more of what he says was lies. And once you start down the path, it is pretty easy to see him as a smooth-talking spy for Dumbledore, because a huge amount of what he says is not hard to explain away. (This was actually my instinctive first reaction to the chapter - why else is he so nice to them?).

I agree with you that DD probably wouldn't have survived without Snape's help. But DD knowing about the UV makes things almost too convoluted. You would think that he would want to get the Draco mess cleared up before going Horcrux Hunting.

He claims on the Tower to know about the Draco mess, in the sense that he knows Draco is trying to kill him. Yet he ignores Harry's warning. This is odd whether or not he knows about the UV, to my mind. (Unless you think he is lying to Draco - yet he seems to have a plan all laid out about how to handle Draco).

Since he knew that he was going to bare most of the burden of destroying the locket he also likely knew that he would be somewhat incapicitated, and then heaven forbiden Draco should decide to strike while he was incapicitated and needed Snape, because then Snape couldn't help him.....***stops to catch breath*** do you see what I mean? That's just too many contingencies to plan for, even for a great man like DD.

I do see what you mean, but I see this as a problem with Dumbledore's planning even if he did not know about the Vow. Snape could also not help him if there were DEs in the castle and he could not get to him, something which could easily have happened as matters played out. Snape was apparently in his office completely ignorant of the goings-on. If Harry had not set guards in the Room of Requirement, the whole drama on the Tower could have played out sans Snape. I have concluded that he did not envision a situation in which Draco's attempt was done in such a way that it could matter, Vow or no Vow.

Had he fought downstairs it is quite possible that some of the Order would have been on the tower to help out DD if indeed Snape somehow went *poof*

Or Dumbledore could have died because Snape did not prevent it in time, since he was busy fighting downstairs. Snape did not know what he would find until he got there. Fighting on the side of the Order would take off the table the possibility of giving suggestions or orders to the other Death Eaters, something only he on the Order's side could do. Keeping that option open until the situation was clear makes some sense, I think.

And I don't think he has taken Snape's choice away. At the end of GoF he asks him "Are you willing?", and in HBP Hagrid overhears Snape saying that maybe he doesn't want to do it anymore. If what Snape does is preagreed between them, I think it's by mutual consent.

But this whole theory is used as a mechanism to effectively make Snape not guilty of murder. Snape doesn’t have a realistic choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing, because it was on Dumbledore’s orders and Dumbledore is above reproach.

I understand that Dumbledore was ready to die anyway is the idea of many readers, but I would question this. Other than absolving Snape of the responsibility for killing Dumbledore, what are the other literary supports for showing Dumbledore as a character who is dying or ready to die (without telling the reader so)--as opposed to, as I think, a character who is aware he is mortal, but determined to do as much as he can to fight a great evil, help a stuck boy, as well as help Harry on his quest?

The very fact that readers are trying to discover something in the books--or hopefully in the next book-- to justify both the murder of Dumbledore and the vow, pretty much confirms that every one agrees that without Dumbledore's sanction of either act, the vow and the murder on the tower were immoral acts.

That we seem prepared to declare something which we agree is immoral, suddenly good because Dumbledore sanctioned it, or because it's war is a little troubling to me, (but that's personal) and it doesn’t seem to fit with Dumbledore’s character, because he is too noble to use Voldemort’s methods.

Dumbledore is just not cold-hearted enough to let him be murdered on his orders without telling. Hagrid has enormous grief, as has McGonagall and many others. What have they ever done to Dumbledore that they deserve this grief, that they mourn Dumbledore without the knowledge that he willingly gave his life for the greater good? Is that the power of love that Dumbledore emphasizes?

For years now I have had it firmly planted in my mind that Snape is working for VM. Saving Harry's life in PS, I thought was to repay the debt he owed James, nothing more. Then I read HBP.

At first reading I thought wow, Snape killed DD... After all the trust DD put in him, year after year of vouching for Snape, he was the only one that wholeheartedly trusted him and this is how he gets repaid? It was sometime last year when I joined COSforums and saw threads saying that Snape only killed DD because he was asked to by DD. I was intrigued by this, having spent so many years 'knowing' Snape was a traitor.

Sirius was so right when he told Harry that the world isn't divided into good people and Death Daters. When I read that line, I realised I held that exact same prejudice and was thinking of the HP characters in the same way. it caused me to rethink how I see the people in the books, especially Snape. He may be callous and cold, but I don't think this is from being a DE. After seeing Snape's memory of his parents fighting in the pensieve and "Snape's worst memory" we see how his life experiences have shaped who Snape is today.

Thats why I love this forum so much. I read and reread the HBP and read through the posts on each thread about Snape killling DD and for the first time I thought that Snape may actually be good. I also can't believe that DD would beg for his life, especially not if there were other lives at stake. I'm not very scholarly, and don't know the books as well as some on this forum but just wanted to post my thoughts!

I understand that Dumbledore was ready to die anyway is the idea of many readers, but I would question this. Other than absolving Snape of the responsibility for killing Dumbledore, what are the other literary supports for showing Dumbledore as a character who is dying or ready to die (without telling the reader so)--as opposed to, as I think, a character who is aware he is mortal, but determined to do as much as he can to fight a great evil, help a stuck boy, as well as help Harry on his quest?


It is very much in Dumbledore's character that he would be willing to sacrifice his life to further his cause, and save the lives of others. This is what the theory posits happened on the Tower. In the previous chapter, he exposes himself to the danger and pain of drinking the green potion for, presumably, these reasons. He tells Harry specifically that Harry is more important. He has spoken of death as "the next great adventure", so he surely does not fear it.

It is my opinion that had Dumbledore instead asked or permitted Snape to sacrifice himself on the Tower, the end result would have been that Snape would have died, Draco would have killed Dumbledore or he would have died, DUmbledore would have died at the hands of Draco or another DE, and likely, Harry having seen all that would have been so angry/griefstricken that he would have betrayed his presence to the Death Eaters when Dumbledore's death lifted the spell.

So in short, I think Dumbledore chose to die to save three lives including Harry's, rather than pursue a slim chance of survival at the expense of others.

This is an analysis on why I do believe Snape is good, with proof and quotes from the text.




Was Snape Acquainted with Draco's Task? - Why did Snape make the Unbreakable Vow?

It all started that fateful night at Spinner's End, when Snape was visited by Narcissa Malfoy and her sister, Bellatrix Lestrange. Narcissa came pleading to Snape to help her son, Draco, survive the task Voldemort had assigned to him. Voldemort had assigned such a horrifically difficult task to Draco in hope that Draco would die in the process, as penance for Lucius's failure in the Department of Mysteries in Order of the Phoenix

But Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains at the deserted street, then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa, frowning.

"It so happens that I know of the plan," he said in a low voice. "I am one of the few the Dark Lord has told. Nevertheless, had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been guilty of great treachery to the Dark Lord."

page 32, Half-Blood Prince
This is Snape's reaction when Narcissa informs him that it is a plot devised by Voldemort that has her in such worry. This was most probably a bluff on Snape's part. Voldemort would have only told his inner circle about the plan, and Snape is most definitely not within that circle [elaborated further down below]. Snape's reaction to Narcissa's comment isn't normal for someone who would know of the plan, as someone who was aware of the plan would respond quaintly. Instead, Snape stalls for time by walking over to the window and staring out of it for a moment. It's a natural practice for someone to be looking out of the window while thinking intensely. Snape was weighing his options at this point:
1. Should he just admit he was oblivious to the plan
2. Should he try to bluff that he knew of the plan.
Obviously, the latter choice won, because it had more benefits. Bellatrix is a very influential member on the Dark side. She undoubtedly believes that Snape can not be trusted, and she has no qualms with telling the world her opinions. Many Death Eaters probably listen to her because of her significant standing with the Dark Lord. If Snape were to admit to Narcissa that he had no knowledge of the plan, in front of Bellatrix, Snape's would prove to Bellatrix that, as she believes, Snape cannot be trusted, and even the Voldemort agrees to that. This was not something Snape wanted to risk, because his membership to the Death Eaters is of paramount importance to Dumbledore. Also, deluding that he knew of the plan would most likely lead to the discussion of the plan. Snape had a chance of learning more of this plan, which, because of its secrecy, must be somewhat momentous. He therefore bluffed that he knew what it was already, in the hopes that Narcissa would divulge more into it, which she did, and salvage his reputation in front of Bellatrix.

"The Unbreakable Vow?"

Snape's expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.

"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure.... The usual empty words, the usual empty words, the usual slither out of action...oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!"

page 35, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
This is where Snape really messes up. Snape has a sore spot for being called a coward, I think. Although Bellatrix did not directly say it, she was emphasizing that he was a coward — claiming Snape was used to getting out of what he was supposed to do when the going got too tough. As is explained further on, no one understands the bravery and guts needed to do what Snape does, and for him to be called a coward because no one know about his position hurts him, a lot. It’s a blow to the heart. Snape's expression was 'blank and unreadable' after Narcissa offered to make an Unbreakable vow because he knew that this situation was extreme, and he knew he couldn't accept the Unbreakable Vow because he did not fully know the specs of Voldemort's plan. But after Bellatrix taunted him, he was determined not to give in and prove her right, and made the rash decision to accept the vow. Calling Snape a coward is rather like daring Snape to do something. Snape also couldn't have thought that the task assigned to Draco was all that difficult that he, an accomplished wizard, could not finish up if Draco failed. There was no way for Snape to foretell the extremities of the plan, and therefore he agreed to something he had no clue about.

Here is a scene of Snape confronting Draco during Hogwarts:
"Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your protection! It's my job, he gave it to me and I’m doing it, I've got a plan and it's going to work, it's just taking a bit longer than I thought it would!"

"What is your plan?"

"It's none of your business!"

"If you tell me what you are trying to do, I can assist you —"

"I've got all the assistance I need, thanks, I'm not alone!"

"You were certainly alone tonight, which as foolish in the extreme, wandering the corridors without lookouts or backup, these are elementary mistakes —"

"I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"

page 323 Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
This proves that Snape had no knowledge of the plan. I doubt Voldemort would just tell Draco "Find a way to kill Dumbledore before the school year ends or you die". Although it was meant as a way to get Draco severely hurt or killed, I’m sure Voldemort would have outlined, or at least sketched, how he would want Draco to lure and kill Dumbledore. And, from Snape's behavior, he has no clue what the plan is or how it is going to happen. Did you notice, Snape never mentions to Draco that he knows what the plan is. He only says, to Draco, that he has made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Draco. He conveniently forgot to tell Draco that he also had to fulfill what Draco did not complete. Snape, in this scene, is trying to pry information from Draco to figure out exactly what the task is by pretending he wants to help him. Also, Snape would not have put Crabbe and Goyle in detention if he knew they were playing a specific role that night. Draco hinted that he needed them that night.




[u]Why Dumbledore's Death was Planned/Expected, on Dumbledore's Part

Here is the scene leading up to Dumbledore's death.
But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.

"Severus..."

The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.

Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way, The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

"Severus... please..."

Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.

"Avada Kedavra!"

page 595 - 596, Half-Blood Prince

Dumbledore had pleaded with Snape, saying, "Severus... Severus please..." not because Dumbledore wanted Snape to spare his life. Quite on the contrary, I believe that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to end it. I think the whole plot, everything from the infiltration of Hogwarts to the killing of Dumbledore, was, paradoxically, plotted by Dumbledore himself, with the aid of Snape.

"...After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." - Albus Dumbledore

page 297, Philosopher's Stone [US Edition]
It is unrealistic, as I said before, that Dumbledore would plead for his life because, according to the quote, Dumbledore is not afraid of death at all. Instead, he views death as the "next great adventure". And I’m fairly sure this statement applies to himself, because Dumbledore's mind is most obviously well-organized.




[u]Snape's Current Situation - Before the Death of Albus Dumbledore

Before I go any further, I sincerely believe Snape is a good person, not a miscreant like many make him out to be. Let's put thing into Snape's perspective. Snape was not on Voldemort's favorite list. When Voldemort was vanquished for the first time by Harry, Snape was one of most of the Death Eaters to forget his existence and move on, if you look at it like Voldemort does and view Snape as a Death Eater, even though he isn't. Then, on the day of Voldemort's return, Snape did not answer his master's beckoning, even though he clearly had to feel his mark burn. Snape has been working under Dumbledore ever since the end of Voldemort's first reign, and considering that Dumbledore is one of Voldemort's adversaries, Voldemort must have some suspicions concerning Snape's loyalty.

Snape is a master Occlumens, so Voldemort cannot be sure that anything he sees in Snape's mind, if Snape were to oblige him entrance, is truthful. I am sure an accomplished Occlumens has the power to make intruder's see memories they want them to, and possibly even fabricate memories. So, Voldemort has no real assurance that Snape is loyal to himself and not to Dumbledore, and because of this doubt, Snape is most likely not within Voldemort's inner circle, with whom he plans all his vestigous plots. Dumbledore realized Snape's position and offered a solution to his dilemma.




Why Snape and Dumbledore Planned Dumbledore's Death

As I said before, Snape's big mistake was the Unbreakable Vow. Snape must have informed Dumbledore of his predicament after making the Vow with Narcissa. Snape must have told Dumbledore this information later on, and, after analyzing the scenario, Dumbledore came to the decision to have Snape kill him for ulterior motives. This is why I do not believe Snape killed Dumbledore out of cold blood.

The one way in which Voldemort could undoubtedly trust Severus Snape was for Snape to do something extreme and greatly helpful to the dark Lord that would abominate the questioning of his loyalty. Naturally, for the Dark Lord, this sort of action would most likely be the death of an enemy. Although Voldemort's main enemy is Harry, Snape couldn't go and kill Harry because Harry was vital to the survival of the Wizarding Community, and without him the world was fall into the hands of Voldemort. Next on Voldemort's hit list was Dumbledore, and Dumbledore realized this.

So, he hatched a plan with Snape so that Snape would kill Dumbledore, although unwillingly, and thus gain a permanent place of trust within the Dark Lord. This would put Snape in a place in which he could be of use when the time was necessary for him to help the war effort against Voldemort, even clandestinely, perhaps by sabotaging or leaking important information that would only be available to the ears of Voldemort's inner circle.

Now, you must understand Snape's scenario. I firmly believe that he is working against Voldemort, but as to where his loyalties lie, I would say it's neither to Voldemort or the Order. But rather to Dumbledore. Dumbledore was the only person who truly gave Snape the time of day and understood him for what he was and why he made the decisions he did, besides, maybe, Lily. Dumbledore had it in his heart to give Snape a second chance, despite his dark past, and that most probably meant something far beyond simple gratitude on Snape's part. It instill a deep loyalty and fierce admiration for Dumbledore.

So, back on topic. Dumbledore was not pleading with Snape to save his life, but rather to end it. This was most likely the hardest thing Snape ever had to do. He had to kill the one man who had given him a chance, the one man who trusted him enough to redeem himself. When no one else ever believed in him, Dumbledore stuck firmly by his side and defended on numerous occasions. And now, he was forced to kill the man who had so graciously accepted him for who he was. This was why Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to go through with it, to respect his wishes for on last time.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

page 595, Half-Blood Prince
Some of you are undoubtedly wondering why Snape would have such a distinct anger and hatred displayed on his face if he was really regretting and sad that he had to kill Dumbledore. This animosity is due to two possible things. The first is hatred of what he is doing. As I said before, it was so hard for Snape to kill the one man who had helped him so much. He hated having to do it, hated it with a burning passion. The second is hatred for himself. He is loathing himself at this point in time for doing something that seems so wrong. And he knows he will hate himself for ever doing it, even though it is necessary.

"No!" roared Snape and the pain stopped as suddenly as it had started; Harry lay curled on the dark grass, clutching his wand and panting; somewhere overhead Snape was shouting, "Have you forgotten orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord -- we are to leave him! Go! Go!"

page 603, Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
Again, Snape demonstrated his loyalty to the now deceased Dumbledore. Snape knew that Harry was the key to the defeat of the Dark Lord. He knew Dumbledore, beyond anything else, wanted, needed, that Harry stay alive to end the war. Snape, despite his loathing for Harry, stopped the Death Eaters who were performing the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. It seems rather obvious, to someone as cunning as Snape, that Voldemort would not care how Harry was obtained, whether he did it himself or someone else got him for him, so long as Harry was at his disposal. I doubt Voldemort had any inclination to get Harry himself, but Snape made it seem like he did to stop the other Death Eaters from attacking and possibly killing Harry. Although some may argue this is due to the bond Snape had for James after James saved Snape from Remus, I already think that that bond has been repaid in full after Snape saved Harry during the Quidditch match in book 1 after de-jinxing Harry's broom.

Anyway, enough of my rambling. To sum it all up, we can conclude, if you adhere to my beliefs and theory, that Dumbledore was not pleading to spare his life but to end his life, as I believe the murder was premeditated, on both the convict [Snape] and the victim's [Dumbledore] part.




[u]Snape's Reactions and Actions to Being Called a Coward - Further Proof.

"Kill me then," panted Harry. who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward —"

"DON'T —" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind him —"CALL ME A COWARD!"

page 604, Half-Blood Prince
Snape, although he is respected by Dumbledore, is looked upon by the Order, and everyone else who fights for the good side, as a slimy, greasy, foul tempered man. No one likes him and they doubt his loyalty because of his former status [Death Eater]. But, they believe in Dumbledore's judgment, and so the Order grudgingly allows Snape to remain in the organization. As I said before, no one understands Snape's true position and importance, and therefore they misjudge him. Although Snape understands this, it still takes a toll on his heart when he hears people talk about him in a derogatory manner. So, when Snape is called a coward, when is anything but, it enrages him.

Another catalyst may be none other than James Potter. James most likely called Snape a coward on a regular basis, due to animosity between the two. And because of James’s 'political power' [he was popular], maybe Snape was outcasted and viewed upon as a coward during his school years at Hogwarts. This would be literally rubbing the salt in the wound. He was being called a coward by son of his enemy, when he had just completed potentially the bravest thing anyone has ever done for the war effort.

This situation is similar to when Bellatrix, in so many words, called Snape a coward after he was speechless when Narcissa wanted him to make an Unbreakable Vow. The anger at being called a coward spurs Snape to make irrational decisions, which led to the acceptance of the Unbreakable Vow. If you believe in my theory, this led to the death of Dumbledore, even if it was planned by Dumbledore himself.

After all Snape has done, after the ultimate sacrifice Snape was forced to make just a short while ago, he was still referred to as a coward. Although Snape's position is misunderstood on Harry's part, which ensues in wrongfully inflicting words, the words still cut Snape deep. He realizes that, after all he has done, people will still think he is a traitor until the truth is revealed, presumably after Voldemort's has been destroyed. It required bravery, but Harry would never know of it. If you look at it from this point of view, Snape's course of action in attacking Harry is not extreme nor surprising.

It can be drawn, as I said before, that Snape makes irrational decisions and behaves rashly when he is defiled as a coward, or any other negative insult of the same context.




[u]Will Snape Come Back to the Good Side?

I don't think it's a question of Snape coming back to the good side, but rather if the good side will let Snape come back. The only people who truly knew Snape's role in the war, if you agree with my theory, were Snape and Dumbledore. Now that Dumbledore is dead, the only person left who knows the whole truth is Snape. All of the good side thinks Snape is bad, and I doubt they would give him the chance to explain.

Rather, I think that Snape will work undercover for the good side, unbeknownst to them of course, and sabotage Voldemort's plans, or something along those lines, now that Snape is privy to all the information regarding what Voldemort will do.




Why Was Snape Able to Cast the Killing Curse on Dumbledore If He Didn't Hate Him?

Why was Snape able to cast the killing curse upon Albus Dumbledore if he didn't truly hate him? It was mentioned and explained blatantly throughout the books that to cast any of the Unforgivables extreme hatred is needed

"Never used an Unforgivable curse before, have you, boy?" she yelled. She abandoned her baby voice now. "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it — righteous anger won't hurt me for long — I'll show you how it is done, shall i? I'll give you a lesson —"

page 810, Order of the Phoenix [US Edition]
Not only hatred is needed, but the want to cause pain. After all Dumbledore has done for Snape, it's impossible for Snape to want to kill him.

But, of course, there's an explanation.

There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor

page 15, Order of the Phoenix [US edition]

A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him.

page 638, Order of the Phoenix [US edition]
Every time someone is hit the Avada Kedavra they just fall to the ground, lifeless.

But when Dumbledore is killed:

A jet of green light shot from one end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag doll, over the battlements and out of sight.

page 596 Half-Blood Prince [US Edition]
So how come, when Dumbledore was hit with the curse he was blasted into the air, when everyone else who had been hit by the curse just fell to the ground lifeless?

Didn't you find it ironic that the whole concept of wordless spells was introduced in this book? I think the reason Rowling did this was because that's exactly what Snape did.

Although the incantation Avada Kedavra came out of his mouth, he was thinking of and saying some other curse in his head, and instead of the killing curse being cast, it was spell he was thinking upon. This spell must emit a green beam of light, like the killing curse, but produces an effect similar to that of a banishing charm.








Okay, I am finally done. Keep in mind that this is all speculation on my part, and there will undoubtedly be parts that you do not agree with me on. It is all speculation, after all.

:evil: He can with Dumbledore dead, so long as the Order still believe he is on their side. That would be the beauty of letting Dumbledore die. He would not have to do the thing Voldemort wants that will put him on Voldemort's side (murder of Dumbledore), and he would still be considered on the Order's side as a spy. He would be putting off the time when he might be forced to pick a side.

I believe that with DD dead Snape will have no in with the order. The Order trusts Snape because DD asks them to. How many times have we heard from order members that thy didn't understand DD reasoning? Plus Snape would have to spin yet another web if the Order found out that Snape was the one that treated DD for the ring injury. Don't you think they would be suspicous if DD died under his "care"?

Cissy suggested it, yes. And Bella scoffed about how Snape always slithers out of action. Good cop, bad cop? Could be. Or it is just their personalities.

I want to play too! Can I play the bad cop?:evil:

Yes, I am aware of this general sentiment, having discussed the scene with others who see it as you do. Rowling carefully left clues that could point either way. That little 'but-' in the Tower scene can certainly be interpreted as you do. It is offset by the scene I point to, and we are left awaiting July 21.

For me it's not about the "but" at all. It's the "of course that's what he would tell you" that has me convinced. Thank heavens that Deathly Hallows is so soon! :drool: I've already told my husband that he won't see much of me. He had the typical response!:grumble:

I do see what you mean, but I see this as a problem with Dumbledore's planning even if he did not know about the Vow. Snape could also not help him if there were DEs in the castle and he could not get to him, something which could easily have happened as matters played out. Snape was apparently in his office completely ignorant of the goings-on. If Harry had not set guards in the Room of Requirement, the whole drama on the Tower could have played out sans Snape. I have concluded that he did not envision a situation in which Draco's attempt was done in such a way that it could matter, Vow or no Vow.

Do you recall the scene in DD office in OotP after Umbridge discovers the DA? Now, granted DD wasn't injured at the time, but he managed to knock out five wizards without using his wand. I do believe that he could have done much the same on the tower if Snape hadn't shown up. (But I have absolutely zero proof of that, it is just a possibility...and one of minor import as that?) I definately got the feeling that DD was putting too much pressure on himself, too confident that he was in control of every situation. In short I think was becoming mentally and emotionally overwhelmed. I have to admit I was disappointed in DD in HBP. There was so much that DD should have told Harry and didn't. Was it lack of trust in Harry or overconfidence on DD part?

Or Dumbledore could have died because Snape did not prevent it in time, since he was busy fighting downstairs. Snape did not know what he would find until he got there. Fighting on the side of the Order would take off the table the possibility of giving suggestions or orders to the other Death Eaters, something only he on the Order's side could do. Keeping that option open until the situation was clear makes some sense, I think.

While I do agree that Snape had no idea exactly what he would find on the tower I think that he understood that this was Draco's last stand. If DE's in Hogwarts failed to bring DD down the Draco was out of chances and everything was coming down to Snape one way or the other.. If there was ever a time where Snape had to make a stand for the right and come clean it was on that tower. And even if by some chance I could wrap my head around the theory that Snape might be good there is one thing that I just can't get past.

The AK. If DD really wanted to sacrifice himself there are plenty of other ways that Snape could have "killed" DD without violating the UV. Honestly Snape could have marched up to DD and pushed him over the edge of the balcony and all DD would have had to do was let himself fall....The AK is a very personal spell, an evil spell. It is UNFORGIVABLE. This was the big baddie. The worst of the worst. And Snape used it. On DD. This is one of those things that I HAVE to take at face value, otherwise it invalidates evrything that JKR has been saying about it through the series.:upset:

I believe that with DD dead Snape will have no in with the order. The Order trusts Snape because DD asks them to. How many times have we heard from order members that thy didn't understand DD reasoning? Plus Snape would have to spin yet another web if the Order found out that Snape was the one that treated DD for the ring injury. Don't you think they would be suspicous if DD died under his "care"?


That might cause a problem if anyone knew. But since Dumbledore was being very secretive about his little ventures (I presume because it has to do with Horcruxes), I suspect it could have been arranged so that nobody did.

I want to play too! Can I play the bad cop?:evil:

But Bella is so good at it! And she might get mad at you... :scared:

Do you recall the scene in DD office in OotP after Umbridge discovers the DA? Now, granted DD wasn't injured at the time, but he managed to knock out five wizards without using his wand. I do believe that he could have done much the same on the tower if Snape hadn't shown up.

Then he could have done so if Snape had shown up as well, which begs the question...why did he not? Instead he immediately started pleading with Snape for something unknown. If it was for Snape to reconsider his evil ways, or spare Dumbledore's life, or some such, that would indicate he suspected Snape, which would make it a fine time to bring out that super magic.

There was so much that DD should have told Harry and didn't. Was it lack of trust in Harry or overconfidence on DD part?

Overconfidence, I think. "I am not worried, Harry, I am with you." :upset: (Maybe my favorite line in that book...) Though I think he did ensure Harry knows all he needs to know about Horcruxes, and all he knew about where to find them, which are the essentials.

The AK is a very personal spell, an evil spell. It is UNFORGIVABLE. This was the big baddie. The worst of the worst. And Snape used it. On DD. This is one of those things that I HAVE to take at face value, otherwise it invalidates evrything that JKR has been saying about it through the series.:upset:

It is an evil spell. It is not, however, personal. Peter Pettigrew did not know Cedric from Adam when he killed him, in GoF. The big blond Death Eater in the battle of Hogwarts killed another named Gibbon, apparently by accident, because he aimed at Lupin and Lupin moved out of the way (this is recounted by Lupin in "The Phoenix Lament"). So we learned that Snape is capable of killing, but not necessarily that he wanted to kill Dumbledore, or hated Dumbledore.

Also, and this is just me, but I have a problem with the idea that using magic to kill someone is worse than using means I as a Muggle could use. Shoving a sick, weakened, unarmed old man off a tower, or killing him with a magic spell, seem equally evil to me, or equally justified, if they are done under the same circumstances and for the same reasons. Somehow the idea that magic makes it different, would make any moral messages from the series seem rather less applicable to real life.

And there's the whole face value problem I was talking about, that I really feel Rowling has written different bits with Snape in ways that, on the face of it, point to different conclusions. Which bits about Snape do we take that way? Taking the following scene at face value, Snape is a profoundly unhappy camper about what just happened. If he took the Unbreakable Vow planning all along to do this, he ought to be rather pleased with how well it turned out. He did the deed and stole Draco's glory, just as planned, and is about to get away.


"Kill me then." panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. "Kill me like you killed him, you coward-"

"DON'T-" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them "-CALL ME COWARD!"


One reason I really enjoy this thread is that I really, really admire how Rowling wrote the whole Snape story. There really is evidence out there to support a variety of ideas about him.

Great theories and I hope they all come true!

I agree that Snape is a good guy in the Harry Potter plot. Sure he had some rough patches here and there, but with all the points you brought up it has made me positive that Snape is on Harry's side. I was kind of etchy at first, but you did bring up many good points.

S.L.A.N.O.B.A.N.T.I.T.S.

Snape Lookin After Number One, But Number Two In There Somewhere

;)

I completely agree with you tuer3ssuci0. I've always thought that Snape was a good guy. Even if he isn't, I'll still love him. :p

for some reason i always wanted to hate snape. but i've read around mugglenet and i'm almost convinced that snape might have a deeper story in the DH. i for some reason just want to believe that he has to be a good guy. i hope he ends up the good guy, it would be a nice surprise.

i read that snape will jump in front of harry out of love for lily and repel voldemorts curse back onto him killing him and the last horcrux and snapes love redemption will make it all work out bla bla...this was a theryo but it soundsaccurate huh??

Hi, tuer3ssuci0!

Nice post! :tu: I missed it when it got merged in here. I generally agree with you, and just want to point out some possible different ways to look at things. :D

This was most probably a bluff on Snape's part. Voldemort would have only told his inner circle about the plan, and Snape is most definitely not within that circle [elaborated further down below].


You later in your post very eloquently state the problem Snape poses for Voldemort. Voldemort simply cannot know, the way he is accustomed to, whether Snape is loyal to him, because Snape's phenomenal talent for Occlumency makes Legilimency used against him unreliable. Yet he keeps Snape around because, if loyal, he is surely useful. This is actually a reason why Voldemort might tell Snape about his order to Draco to assassinate Dumbledore. If Snape helps Draco or 'does it in the end', Voldemort will have proof of Snape's loyalty to him. If somehow the plan fails and Snape is involved, Voldemort can finally be sure Snape is a traitor. You could be right (it is what I used to think myself) but I do see logical reasons that Voldemort would tell Snape despite his distrust.

This proves that Snape had no knowledge of the plan. I doubt Voldemort would just tell Draco "Find a way to kill Dumbledore before the school year ends or you die".

Actually, I think this is exactly what Voldemort did. Draco claims credit for the Vanishing Cabinet idea, and I see no reason to disbelieve him. It also explains why Draco tried various methods - his orders were simply to kill Dumbledore, full stop. But this way, Snape had even less chance of knowing the plan - as the scene you cite shows, Draco refused to tell Snape anything about his plans.

After all Snape has done, after the ultimate sacrifice Snape was forced to make just a short while ago, he was still referred to as a coward. Although Snape's position is misunderstood on Harry's part, which ensues in wrongfully inflicting words, the words still cut Snape deep. He realizes that, after all he has done, people will still think he is a traitor until the truth is revealed, presumably after Voldemort's has been destroyed. It required bravery, but Harry would never know of it. If you look at it from this point of view, Snape's course of action in attacking Harry is not extreme nor surprising.

I disagree that Snape's extreme reaction to Harry's words was prompted by the accusation of cowardice. About 1-2 pages before the scene where Snape attacks Harry, Harry calls Snape a coward. Snape reacts in a typical, fairly cool manner by insulting James to Harry, asking Harry what he would call a person who liked to attack others four to one. I think that what got to Snape in the scene was the other thing Harry said, "Kill me like you killed him". Harry is at this moment disarmed and helpless, just as Dumbledore was when Snape killed him. I think it is the anguish of remembering what he has just had to do that pushes him over the edge. This alternate view, of course, also suggests Snape was motivated by loyalty to Dumbledore.

I don't think it's a question of Snape coming back to the good side, but rather if the good side will let Snape come back.

I agree. I believe he came back shortly after Harry was born, and has been there ever since. :)

The only people who truly knew Snape's role in the war, if you agree with my theory, were Snape and Dumbledore.

Here's a question for you - if Dumbledore and Snape planned this all in advance as you suggest, would it not make sense for them to confide the plan to some other person? This way Snape would have a conduit for information, and also the means to clear his name, supposing he survives the defeat of Voldemort.

I don't care what anyone says, Snape killed Dumbledore and made Harry's life at Hogwarts a somewhat Hell, so I cannot, and will not forgive him, and even if he IS good, then I will still feel the same way.
I agree completely, except that I also think that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, so I can't hold that against Snape. Otherwise, I think he has been beastly to Harry--far more so than could ever be justified by any cover Snape had to maintain for Voldemort. His hatred toward Harry is visceral and unjustified. I can't tolerate any adult treating a child like that, let alone a teacher who has an unequal power balance with the child.

In fact it's just as easy to assume that Snape could have treated Harry coolly and neutrally and told Voldemort he was trying to fool Dumbledore by not being nasty to Harry. Or he could have even been extra nice to Harry and still used the excuse of maintaining his cover with Dumbledore.

So I think that Snape has unfortunately transferred his hate of James to Harry.

I think there were so many chances at the end of HBP for Snape to hurt Harry and he didn't. He even stopped another DE from using the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. He blocked Harry's spells, but didn't send back any dangerous spells. He used one that brushed Harry back, but it didn't harm Harry, either. And while Snape kept telling the DEs that Harry was to be left for Voldemort, surely he could have knocked Harry unconscious and kidnapped him for Voldemort to deal with him later. Or he could have just hurt Harry out of spite, but not kill him and then he could have left him there at Hogwarts.

Snape also told Harry: "No Unforgivable Curses from you, Potter" so he didn't want Harry to go astray. And then he gave Harry some good advice on how to conquer Voldemort--keep his mind and mouth shut (i.e. practice occlumency and non-verbal spells).

Although, I think JKR has painted him into a corner. Killing Dumbledore is not going to make him popular with the balance of the wizarding world, so I think he will only be able to prove his loyalty by dying to save Harry. And, no, I don't think it will give Harry the same kind of protection that Lily's death did. He does not love Harry. His death will enable Harry to succeed (by saving his life) but not by ancient love magic protection.

ok I thought about this for awhile and then I was flicking through the channels and came across an Austin Powers movie.......silly movie reference..........but it was the part where Austin's son made a very valid point....."If you wanted to kill him why don't you do it when he is on the ******* or something" Snape had 6 years to harm, injure and mame Harry and DD for that matter....And now that I think about it he could have also spread his death eater views to nomad children just like he was....but he did not (i will exclude Draco for his father was already a DE)...even when he was the DADA teacher he actually effectivly potrayed what it is like to essentially defend against dark magic....WHY would he give these students (harry inparticular) the tools to effectivly defend themselves against his "master"...I am not saying he is a good person in general i think he does have a general loathing for Harry because of the position he put himself in...and I think he really loathed Harry's father as well...but I think the point that will tie all this togather is the relationship Snape could have possibly had with Lily...


Yeah he had 6 years and yes he had many tools and resources and all that. BUT you're forgetting some important facts. For the first 3/4 years Voldemort was NOT in power, in fact he hardly existed. Then for the other year [before the whole tower thing in HBP] Dumbledore was headmaster.Dumbledore kept an eye out on Harry right. And Snape is no idiot, he knew better than to do anything under Dumbledore's watchful eye.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but there is no way I can find it in the thousands of earlier posts, so please forgive me........

Something in HBP has me deeply concerned that Dumbledore was wrong to trust Snape. We know for a fact that Snape did indeed make an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa to protect Draco, but near the end of the book, when Harry tells him about it, DD dismisses it out of hand, saying that Snape may have *said* he took the vow, but hadn't really.
With all the little hints along the way about DD's 'mistakes being correspondingly bigger' it muddies the waters a little.
On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past both of them to know some way (kind of like crossing your fingers behind your back) to negate the consequences of breaking that 'unbreakable' vow. I want to believe that when DD was pleading with Snape on the tower, that he was begging him to fulfill his promise and kill him so that Draco wouldn't have to. The hatred on Snape's face could have been the self-loathing that Harry felt, being forced to pour that potion down DD's throat in the cave because he'd promised to obey *any* order given him. That could also explain the argument that Hagrid overheard in the forest.....that Snape was balking on his promise.

I could understand if Snape isn't at least partially redeemed in DH, but I really hope he will be. I don't want DD's legacy to include the massive mistake of trusting the wrong person.

I am really up in the air about Snape, I have never liked him. I dont think that he is good as of yet, but I think he will end up helping Harry defeat Lord Voldermort. I am so ready for this book to come out.

Something in HBP has me deeply concerned that Dumbledore was wrong to trust Snape. We know for a fact that Snape did indeed make an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa to protect Draco, but near the end of the book, when Harry tells him about it, DD dismisses it out of hand, saying that Snape may have *said* he took the vow, but hadn't really.

Actually, he does not finish the sentence, the hadn't really is your supposition about what he might have said if he had not been interrupted by Draco. Though your supposition is certainly a reasonable one.


"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother-"
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but-"


On the other hand, there is also this conversation with Harry in which Dumbledore seems not to be surprised to hear about it at all. Harry tells Dumbledore about eavesdropping on Snape and Draco at Slughorn's party. Given his earlier discussions with Ron and Mr. Weasley, I can't believe Harry would have failed to make mention of Snape's claim that he made an Unbreakable Vow.


"Thank you for telling me this, Harry, but I suggest that you put it out of your mind. I do not think that it is of great importance."

"Not of great importance?" repeated Harry incredulously. "Professor, did you understand-"

"Yes, Harry, blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understood everything you told me," said Dumbledore, a little sharply. "I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did. Again, I am glad that you have confided in me, but let me reassure you that you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet."


Equally speculative - but an obvious reason for Dumbledore to believe he understands more of what is going on is if Snape reported taking the Vow to him. Inthat case Dumbledore clearly knows more (or thinks he does, another possibility could be that Snape admitted to taking the Vow but concealed the third clause) because he thinks he knows the terms of the Vow (something Snape and Draco do not discuss).

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past both of them to know some way (kind of like crossing your fingers behind your back) to negate the consequences of breaking that 'unbreakable' vow.

I believe they did think they could do this in HBP. Not by defeating the magic of the Vow directly, but by exploiting the wording of the specific Vow Snape took. Suppose that Dumbledore had talked Draco into hiding from Voldemort, and the Death Eaters had not shown up during that conversation.

Draco would be safe, and he would not be trying to kill Dumbledore. So it wouyld not 'prove necessary' for Snape to carry out the task, nor would Draco 'seem to fail'. (Can you fail if you are not even trying?)

If I am right, the plan failed because Draco managed to get Death Eaters into the school.

i do not think snape will be good. he is too freaky and evil to do that. and i think he is going to die in the next book so he will not go good.:rockon:

If I am right, the plan failed because Draco managed to get Death Eaters into the school.

Quite possible, but I still feel like there's more to it.

No doubt about it though, good or evil, Snape has to be the greatest 'double agent' in history. It looks as though both DD and LV were absolutely convinced of his loyalty.

"Thank you for telling me this, Harry, but I suggest that you put it out of your mind. I do not think that it is of great importance."

"Not of great importance?" repeated Harry incredulously. "Professor, did you understand-"

"Yes, Harry, blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understood everything you told me," said Dumbledore, a little sharply. "I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did. Again, I am glad that you have confided in me, but let me reassure you that you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet."


What I find interesting about this, is that Dumbledore thinks he understands the situation, but he is totally surprised that Draco was able to get Death Eaters into the castle. So obviously, Dumbledore did not know as much as he thought he did about what was going on. And he should have taken Harry more seriously. He underestimated both Draco and Harry.

Something about the Snape and the "DON'T–CALL ME COWARD!" Quote that bodes well for Snape Fans may be what JkRowling said about Courage. In this interview (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-edinburgh-ITVcubreporters.htm) when someone asked what House she would belong to.

JK Rowling: Well, I would want to be in Gryffindor and the reason I would want to be in Gryffindor is because I do prize courage in all its various ramifications. I value it more highly than any other virtue and by that I mean not just physical courage and flashy courage, but moral courage.

And I wanted to make that point in a very first book with Neville, because Neville doesn't have that that showy macho type of courage that Harry shows playing quidditch. But at the end, what Neville does at the end of Philosopher's Stone to stand up to his friends and risk their dislike and approval is hugely courageous so I would want to be in Gryffindor. That is not to say I would be there. I think there is a good bit of Hufflepuff in me.

Bscorp, you bring up an interesting quote. And it's one that gives me hope as to Severus having been good all along:)

Killing Albus has put Severus on the Orders bad side, which if he isn't loyal to them doesn't matter, but if he is and always has been loyal to them, then he's in trouble. If that's the case, then Severus has been courageous in killing Albus, no matter what anyone says to the contrary. He is now hated by the people that he is loyal too, and trusted by the very people he has set himself against. To put himself in the way of those who would kill him the minute they know he's against them, is very dangerous. He deserves to be called courageous.

Another issue is, even though he is a great Occlumens, its still possible that Voldemort may be able to get into his mind at a time when he's not on his guard (although Severus seems to always be on his guard). Now that Severus has been outlawed from the Order, he is going to be spending countless hours with Voldemort, and that provides unlimited chances for Voldemort to find something in his mind that will reveal whose side he is really on. That would cause Voldemort to undoubtedly kill him for his treachery and betrayal.

As for Severus' true loyalties, only Jo knows for sure at the moment:grumble: I'm hoping that he's been good all along and that he will fins some way to show the Order he's loyal to them, without being killed in the process.

I'm hoping that he's been good all along and that he will fins some way to show the Order he's loyal to them, without being killed in the process.

I think if he *is* good, and loyal to the Order, the only way he'll be able to redeem himself will be to die protecting, most likely Harry, but maybe another member of the OoP.
That's really the only option left open to him. He is a wanted man now by the good guys, so whatever he manages to learn from the DE's, he can no longer pass along safely. He'd likely be killed on sight by an Order member, and in any case, they wouldn't believe a word he said anymore.

Its not much of a debate... Snape is good, there is way too much evidence out there otherwise.

As far as Harry not knowing everything DD knows... That was also by design. He has to go through the trials to find the strength in himself to kill Voldy at the end (which he wont have to do, Snape will sacrifice himself for Harry, once again creating the bond in which will protect Harry again. and then when Voldy comes in with the death blow it rebounds and kills him with no Horcruxes left he dies.

The final scene the way I see it now. Voldy has Harry at his mercy, and begins to torture him, Snape by his side watching. Harry pleading for help, looks into Snapes eyes, Snape sees Lilly looking at him, pleading ( maybe a flashback to Snapes feelings for Lilly). He pushes Voldy away, Voldy says "Ill deal with your traitor ways later, and turns on Harry. Yells AK Snape dives in the way... dead. Voldy turns on Harry again, and AK's again, it rebound and kills Voldy... No Horcruxes left= dead voldy, and Harry never did an unforgivable curse that worked

What I find interesting about this, is that Dumbledore thinks he understands the situation, but he is totally surprised that Draco was able to get Death Eaters into the castle. So obviously, Dumbledore did not know as much as he thought he did about what was going on. And he should have taken Harry more seriously. He underestimated both Draco and Harry.

I so agree.:tu: Upon rereading HBP, I always shudder a bit when I read the following comment of Dumbledore's:


"Voldemort's mistake, Harry, Voldemort's mistake...Age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates youth...."


Its not much of a debate... Snape is good, there is way too much evidence out there otherwise.

Oh, come now, there have been some nice posts arguing the opposite position just in the last 24 hours! ;) Even if we don't agree with their conclusions, the evidence at present is less than definitive, I believe by design. We are not supposed to know at this point. :grumble:

I so agree.:tu: Upon rereading HBP, I always shudder a bit when I read the following comment of Dumbledore's:


"Voldemort's mistake, Harry, Voldemort's mistake...Age is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates youth...."
There is another line in OotP where Dumbledore is telling Harry something about an old man's mistake - referring to why he didn't tell Harry the prophecy sooner.

All these references to Dumbledore making mistakes and getting old make me think of just one thing: was he mistaken in Severus Snape?

Its not much of a debate... Snape is good, there is way too much evidence out there otherwise.


En contraire! (I don't know french) I say there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Snape is a bad guy. Dumbledore himself has said that he makes mistakes, his over confidence in the best of people has put the well being of Hogwarts at risk! He's made the mistake of allowing one of his teachers to be possesed by Voldemort, within the very Walls of Hogwarts! (I'm talking about Quirrel of coarse) Dumbldeore didn't recognise that it was really a death eater that was impersonating Alastor Moody, who allowed Harry to be transported to Voldemort thus, enabling his return. Dumbledore allowed Death Eaters to raid Hogwarts when he took no action to stop Draco Malfoy's petty plan to fix the broken vanishing cabinete. He says to Draco that he already knew all about it, and he's consistently said that portecting Hogwarts is one of his highest priorities. So, why shouldn't Dumbledore be mistaken in Snape?
Plus, Snape's personality= Nuff Said! He's been a complete git since day one, insulting and endangering Harry and his friends, spewing the same Slytherin, supriority bigotry as Malfoy.

I'm not saying that I think Snape is bad, but you can't say that there's not much of a debate on the subject, it's certainly way up in the air in my opinion.

Remember Lily respected Snape, if she did or did not "like" him. She respected him,

So- regardless of whether or not Snape is good/bad...
it will come down to Harry's Eyes. ie his Mother's Eyes...
His Mother's Perspetive.

Harry will have to see Snape Through HIS MOTHER'S Eyes to come to terms with him and Vice Versa.

Snape will have to look into Harry's Eyes, and see LILY - Not James.

There in lies the secret to their mutual respect.

It is an evil spell. It is not, however, personal.

I inserted the "personal" bit, yes. But you agree with me that the spell is evil. Why would Snape use an evil spellon someone whom he, as you suggest, feels loyalty to if not down right affection?

Yet he keeps Snape around because, if loyal, he is surely useful.

MMMMMmmmmm..., zgirnius,I would look at it much differently. As long as Voldemort knows which side Snape is on Snape is therefor useful. i.e. if Snape is "good" Voldemort can feed him lies, and disrupt the Order etc etc and not act upon any information Snape may give him knowing that Snape is out to destroy him. If Snape is "bad" then Voldemorts uses for him are pretty plain.

I can understand why many people think that HBP was a test on Voldemort's part to see where Snape's loyalties lie. I happen to believe that Voldemort already knows where Snapes loyalties lie and that Voldemort is using that information to his advantage. (And it seems to be working...)

Oh, come now, there have been some nice posts arguing the opposite position just in the last 24 hours! Even if we don't agree with their conclusions, the evidence at present is less than definitive, I believe by design. We are not supposed to know at this point.

Thank you!:blush:

I have such trouble answering these threads. I myself cant make up my mind in regards to Snape. In the end I think he'll be good and help Harry in some way. But I also think hes probably enjoyed the time in Voldemorts service. I'm sure if he does come back to the good side it will be hard for him to do so. And now that Dumbledore is gone he has no one in the Order to answer to. Why would he. The people in Voldemorts camp respect Snape and probably look up to him as well. Plus he really seems to fit in with that crowd. If Snape has crossed that line I doubt he'll be coming back to do good. I feel differently tomorrow I'm sure.

he is good. i feel dumbledore made a plan to get himself killed so that voldemort would never question snape again and then at the end snape would help harry to defeat voldemort does that make sense?

Harry will have to see Snape Through HIS MOTHER'S Eyes to come to terms with him and Vice Versa. I'm always troubled by the idea that Harry must come to terms with Snape. Snape has treated Harry miserably from his first day at Hogwarts. Harry has every right to his feelings about Snape. Even if I were to buy into the idea that Snape was only putting on an act (and I don't), Harry is not unjustified in his opinion of Snape. And that's not even dealing with the fact that Harry saw Snape kill Dumbledore. Snape has a lot of ground to cover in order to convince Harry that he is on the good side.

I think that at the very end of DH when everything hangs in the balance, Snape will return to the good side, and weaken voldy so harry can kill him or something.

I think that at the very end of DH when everything hangs in the balance, Snape will return to the good side, and weaken voldy so harry can kill him or something.That a good assumption. It seems to fit with the direction the story has been moving in. I think Snape is good, but will only be able to convince Harry and most of the wizarding world about that with some kind of dramatic move at the end.

That a good assumption. It seems to fit with the direction the story has been moving in. I think Snape is good, but will only be able to convince Harry and most of the wizarding world about that with some kind of dramatic move at the end.

yes and that would also make harry like snape again.

I think Snape is good, but will only be able to convince Harry and most of the wizarding world about that with some kind of dramatic move at the end.

And it also fits in with Severus Snape's character as well. I say that because we all know that Severus's robes billow behind him dramatically when he walks,(which also makes him look like an over-grown bat:lol:) and he's always been dramatic when it comes to his "hatred" of Harry. So a dramatic move at the end that finally proves what side he's on does seem very likely.


Its not much of a debate... Snape is good, there is way too much evidence out there otherwise.

Even though there is a good bit of evidence out there that supports our claims of Severus being good, that doesn't mean that we can't still debate over the issue. The opposition has some very good evidence that proves he could be evil, just as our side as some very good evidence that proves he could still be good. And even though we may not be able to be persuaded, or able to persuade others, to change our views on the issue, it's still fun to get on here everyday and debate over his loyalties with everyone.

And besides, no Harry Potter fan can resist getting into a debate over the things that have been left unsolved thus far in the series:lol:

no snape is not good and he is never going to try to be good and go to the good side. he will die any way so who cares if he goes to the goof side or he doesent.:rockon: :cool: :drool:

he will die any way so who cares if he goes to the goof side or he doesent.:rockon: :cool: :drool:

The manner of his death seems likely, to me, to have some consequence to the story. I don't expect to read that he slipped in the bath, banged his head, and drowned.

If he is on the good side as I believe, I expect he will achieve something for the good side before or through his death. If he is on the bad side, someone will kill him, no? Who? Harry certainly believes he hates him enough. Is he right?

I think Snape is on the good side. I think Dumbledore had planned in some way for things to work out the way they did. Now Voldemort will definitely believe Snape's loyalties to be with him and Snape can use whatever information he gets from Voldemort to help the Order and Harry in the end. Of course, JKR could throw one of her lovely twists in there and I could be completely wrong!

The manner of his death seems likely, to me, to have some consequence to the story. I don't expect to read that he slipped in the bath, banged his head, and drowned.

If he is on the good side as I believe, I expect he will achieve something for the good side before or through his death. If he is on the bad side, someone will kill him, no? Who? Harry certainly believes he hates him enough. Is he right?

I agree with you here. If he is on the good side, but does not achieve anything, then JKR will simply have used him as a Deus Ex Machina to end Dumbledore's life.

Maybe he will turn to the good side, when he is dying or mortally injured...and at the last minute does something very good and significant to the books overall plot..

Remember when Lilly befreinded Snape. What was Snapes response? He said she is not a purebred.
She then basically tells him to f-off.

Here's how I look at it: Snape took a life -- that is not to be debated. The only thing everyone seems to be hashing about is the "why" of it -- was it on orders of Voldemort, Dumbledore, was it because of the Vow, or something else? To me, it does not matter. Taking a life is taking a life. And he killed someone who trusted him, someone who had defended him and been a friend to him, whatever else he may have represented or shoved down Snape's throat. So, to answer the question, no, Snape is not good (and, yes, to answer means I am judging him), but he is capable of making a choice, for good or bad, the same as anyone else. Will he come back to the good side? Depends on his choices.

So if it could be "proved" that Snape's act - killing Dumbldore on the tower- saved 2 or 3 other lives (Harry, Draco, Narcissa) is it still "an eye for an eye?"

Here's how I look at it: Snape took a life -- that is not to be debated. The only thing everyone seems to be hashing about is the "why" of it -- was it on orders of Voldemort, Dumbledore, was it because of the Vow, or something else? To me, it does not matter. Taking a life is taking a life. And he killed someone who trusted him, someone who had defended him and been a friend to him, whatever else he may have represented or shoved down Snape's throat. So, to answer the question, no, Snape is not good (and, yes, to answer means I am judging him), but he is capable of making a choice, for good or bad, the same as anyone else. Will he come back to the good side? Depends on his choices.Well you can't ignore the question Why? "Why?" is the answer to this question we are debating. You can't say every person who ever killed a person is bad, the reason the killed the person, may or may not justify it. I don't think Snape is a nice person, however, he proves to be a good person - meaning fighting for the good side.

Again - since I haven't been in here in a while, I might as well throw this in - If Dumbledore trusted him for so long, around "his kids", in his school, then so do I. It's as simple as that.

Its not much of a debate... Snape is good, there is way too much evidence out there otherwise.

That's how I feel about it, too. He explained his all evil nature and motivation and dedication himself in the beginnning of the book and killed Dumbledore at the end. Well, if it turns out this is a case of ehat you see is what you get and the meaning was there on the surface all the time, I'd be extremely disappointed. There are large chunks of the picture still obviously missing, and I agree they can show Snape as good or bad, but my money's on good, in the wide sense.

ok will i think snape is very much still good he made an unbreakable wole and if he didnt they wouldve thought that he was really on the OFTP and killed hm and he probly told DD and he had to do it and thats y i think hell come to the good side

I have no doubts... Snape is good and is Dumbledore's man to the end.

:agree: I do trust Snape too, it´s just that it would be kind of interesting to see how it all ends for him if he really is not good, if he really betray everyone... I don´t know I just guess it would be a very juicy story :p I´m not sure what it would be the biggest "cliché": to have Snape being bad and being punished or having him as a heroe for whatever he would do next, don´t get me wrong I´m not trying to be pesimistic or anything I´m just saying that to me it doesn´t seems to be a lot of choises for Snape´s final story, I don´t know what you guys think???:hmm:

I think the biggest obstacle to Snape being bad, is the fact that it was revealed with a whole book still to go! So I'm inclined to consider it a cliff-hanger, rather than a final revelation!

I think the cliff hanger will be how Snape redeems himself. I think that he killed Dumbledore for the same reason that Wormtail betrayed his best friends, because of the power that Voldemort holds over people. It will make a great story.

That's why I like the idea that Snape himself still hasn't truly decided where his loyalties lie, and won't until the last second. Tension!

I wonder if Snape ever was on anyone's side. I think that he's looking out for himself, and picking the side that suits him best at the time. A true Slytherin, so to say. He has a nasty personality, and he's done some pretty horrible stuff, but ultimately, he too will have to choose a side, choose between what is right and what is easy. That will decide how he would be remembered as. I do hope he can find it in himself to do the right thing when the time comes.

We have been led down the garden path from book one with Snape and his intentions. He is probably the most complex character in the whole series. I doubt that he's going to turn out to be evil...

Also, JKR cried over Sirius' death, but had very little to say about Dumbledore's. There's something not quite right about that either.

Since we've continually been told how horrible Snape is, and he does very little to redeem himself (that we see), more than likely we are going to learn even more horrific things about him in DH. My opinion is that Harry will find out Snape was the one fighting James at GH - later we'll learn it was actually Voldemort that killed James when Snape failed to do so...but Harry's hatred of Snape is going to continue because he's going to be given more and more reasons in this book.

Remember this from GOF: "Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready . . . if you are prepared ..."

"I am," said Snape.

He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.

"Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension
on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again.

Because we usually see everything through Harry's eyes, we don't know what happened. Obviously Dumbledore was asking Snape to go back to the Dark Lord. Snape knew that his late appearance would take its toll. It's doubtful that Voldemort welcomed him with open arms - more than likely the Cruciatus Curse. Snape had to know that.

Is Snape good? He's a pain in the arse, but he works for the good. I think we might also learn that the reason Sirius was so reckless was that his food had been sprinkled with something...and Harry may be led to believe that it was Snape that did it, since he and Sirius obviously hate one another...but it will turn out to be Kreacher.

Midnight came and went while Harry was reading and rereading a passage about the uses of scurvy-grass, lovage and sneezewort and not taking in a word of it.
These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness…Remember, Snape never ate anything at Grimmauld Place.

There will probably be many things in DH that will be there specifically to put Harry off kilter. He already believes that Snape killed Dumbledore, add to the knowledge Snape's responsible for his father and his godfather's deaths and voila, Harry might be going after Snape instead of Voldemort.

I couldn't care less if Snape was a death eater or not. I believe that he has been waiting until Voldie has come back to full power and everyone knows it. I don't think that he was a spy but loyal to both sides of the Wizarding World. there is no good and bad, there are just groups of people who believe differently, similar to religion just it's magic and wizarding stuff. Lots of fans want to think that Snape was under the Imperius curse but can't because he killed Dumbledore so willingly. The other lot of fans think Snape was under the curse, which I doubt or else he wouldn't have been all eek on Harry. (about him being the half blood prince and all that jazz). The last lot would be thinking that Snape just felt as if he had to just to save Draco's skin. I don't really fit under any of those catergories, I just believe that his true side the the dark side. Or the group that believes in murder and world domination.

Well, hey. This is very controversial, yes, but I shall use my good friend, logic.

The facts are, feelings/motives/etc. aside, that Snape has committed heinous deeds. No matter what surrounded the situation or drove him to it, he still killed Dumbledore. No qualms. There is no feasible way that the Order could ever accept him back after that, even if DD's death was on DD's Order. DD is not alive to settle the issue.

Also, I have read, re-read, and re-re-read Spinner's End, and always come out with the distinct impression that Snape is telling the truth. It explains so much.

So, even if he gets knocked over the head with a redemption-sledgehammer, there is no way that the Order can accept the man who murdered their leader. No buts as to why.

you bring up a great point actually...even if he is good and the motive was to have him on the inside, everybody took DD's death as a HUGE shock which means nobody would have heard dumbledore say it...so putting yourself in their position you cant possibly trust snape ever again.

now im off to make an egg and some toast

"After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." - Albus Dumbledore.

I feel, Snape was hesitant to kill Albus, though, as we know from Dumbledore's own view, death is something else, something different...And Dumbledore was asking him to help him get over the barrier ....

Hey people, let's not forget this is just a fiction ... I think we have to wait for the 7th book to clear things up

I think that snape will be as evil as ever. Seeing that he killed dumbledore. But, you never know. A spell could be over him and at sometimes he's under voldermorts power. But He's plain evil 24/7. So I don't think he'll join the good side.

you bring up a great point actually...even if he is good and the motive was to have him on the inside, everybody took DD's death as a HUGE shock which means nobody would have heard dumbledore say it...so putting yourself in their position you cant possibly trust snape ever again.

now im off to make an egg and some toast

Exactly! Thank you. Everyone seems to be mired in the "Who cares if he killed someone and betrayed the Order members' trust if he had good intentions?" thing. But there is one, huge, glaring flaw in that: He still did it. No matter the circumstances behind it, he still killed DD of his own accord (no Imperius involved) and NO ONE was expecting it.

And, if he was sooo good, wouldn't he have stuck around and explained to McGonagall or something? DD's portrait would have been able to back him up. But no. Instead, he ran off with a Death Eater/DE's son, whichever Draco actually is. Ka-peesh?

Exactly! Thank you. Everyone seems to be mired in the "Who cares if he killed someone and betrayed the Order members' trust if he had good intentions?" thing. But there is one, huge, glaring flaw in that: He still did it. No matter the circumstances behind it, he still killed DD of his own accord (no Imperius involved) and NO ONE was expecting it.

One person did not seem to be surprised at all, and a very important one at that - Dumbledore himself. He also seems to have been calm, even satisfied, over the circumstances of his passing, judging from his facial expression at the time of death.

And, if he was sooo good, wouldn't he have stuck around and explained to McGonagall or something? DD's portrait would have been able to back him up. But no. Instead, he ran off with a Death Eater/DE's son, whichever Draco actually is. Ka-peesh?

It would be a crminal waste of Dumbledore's sacrifice to stick around and explain himself to McGonagall, so I am not surprised he didn't. Voldemort is not capable of conceiving the possibility that Dumbledore would have requested his own death, so Snape has just established his loyalty in Voldemort's eyes. It makes much more sense to see whether he can get something useful to the Order out of that, rather than to throw it away to clear his own name.

One person did not seem to be surprised at all, and a very important one at that - Dumbledore himself. He also seems to have been calm, even satisfied, over the circumstances of his passing, judging from his facial expression at the time of death.



It would be a crminal waste of Dumbledore's sacrifice to stick around and explain himself to McGonagall, so I am not surprised he didn't. Voldemort is not capable of conceiving the possibility that Dumbledore would have requested his own death, so Snape has just established his loyalty in Voldemort's eyes. It makes much more sense to see whether he can get something useful to the Order out of that, rather than to throw it away to clear his own name.


Wow, good catch zgirnius!! :wow: I noticed that he was calm, but I never even realized it could be for that way... :hmm:

It would be a crminal waste of Dumbledore's sacrifice to stick around and explain himself to McGonagall, so I am not surprised he didn't. Voldemort is not capable of conceiving the possibility that Dumbledore would have requested his own death, so Snape has just established his loyalty in Voldemort's eyes. It makes much more sense to see whether he can get something useful to the Order out of that, rather than to throw it away to clear his own name.

That is a very good thought, however, although Dumbledore is calm about Snape, he was also calm about Draco, whom he was not entirely aware of. He had to ask Draco about his plan...and he was calm that entire time. As a matter of fact, I remember a quote about DD talking about Draco killing him "in the manner of being intruiged about a particularly interesting homework project" or something.

Also, killing the Order's leader without the Order's knowledge is in NO way beneficial to them. Yes, DD was the only one not shocked, and he's dead, so now Snape can be no use to the Order. Can you really expect Harry to trust him again (not that he ever really, really did) even if he's "good"? Would anyone in the Order, including Harry, ever accept him or trust him again? Good intentions or not, he committed the deed, and as far as anyone else knows, he is bad.

Also, killing the Order's leader without the Order's knowledge is in NO way beneficial to them. Yes, DD was the only one not shocked, and he's dead, so now Snape can be no use to the Order. Can you really expect Harry to trust him again (not that he ever really, really did) even if he's "good"? Would anyone in the Order, including Harry, ever accept him or trust him again? Good intentions or not, he committed the deed, and as far as anyone else knows, he is bad.

In your previous post, you suggested Snape could have stayed to explain himself to McGonagall, with the support of Dumbledore's portrait. This would remain an option at a later date, surely? Both she and the portrait are still around.

However, that is not the way I would expect things to play out. Snape could be useful to the Order without their knowledge. One way would be by acting as a saboteur, wrecking DE plans from the inside, or convincing DEs who may know valuable information to seek asylum with the Order (I think the Malfoy family are prime candidates for this). Another would be by providing information anonymously.

That is a very good thought, however, although Dumbledore is calm about Snape, he was also calm about Draco, whom he was not entirely aware of. He had to ask Draco about his plan...and he was calm that entire time.

Dumbledore claims to have known all about Draco's orders from the start, and to know he was behind the other incidents. He has had a long time to think about it, so he would not be surprised, and he has apparently reached the conclusion that Draco's heart is not in it (as he explains in that scene). I presume he knows about the orders because Snape told him, by the way-otherwise it seems a rather odd conclusion to jump to early on.

The other point is that Dumbledore only appears calm at the moment of his death. When Snape shows up, Dumbledore is described as 'pleading', and his demeanor frightens Harry. One possible reason is if Dumbledore feared Snape would not do as he asked. My interpretation is that the change, from pleading to calm, indicates Dumbledore's pleading was answered in the manner he wished.

One person did not seem to be surprised at all, and a very important one at that - Dumbledore himself. He also seems to have been calm, even satisfied, over the circumstances of his passing, judging from his facial expression at the time of death.

I swear I'm not trying to nitpick but couldn't DD calm expression be that of a person who is no longer suffering. I imagine that he had been in pain, as well as exhausted after all/

It would be a crminal waste of Dumbledore's sacrifice to stick around and explain himself to McGonagall, so I am not surprised he didn't. Voldemort is not capable of conceiving the possibility that Dumbledore would have requested his own death, so Snape has just established his loyalty in Voldemort's eyes. It makes much more sense to see whether he can get something useful to the Order out of that, rather than to throw it away to clear his own name.

I agree that Voldemort has no understanding of DD. They are polar opposites. Voldemort will never understand DD. I don't understand DD sometimes. As far as establishing loyalty...maybe...or just as likely Voldemort, being as suspicious as he is, might take it as a sign that Snape is out to usurp Voldy's throne (after all Voldy has never manged to kill DD now has he?) Might'nt people start looking to Snape as the new Dark Lord? It's as likely as anything else.

The most that Snape can now accomplish with the Order will be in a completely anonymous fashion. And quite frankly why would the Order rely on such info? It could so easily be a trap. Face it, Snape has ZERO friends in the Order. If he is on the good side he will have to go it alone from here on out...there will be no DD to ask advice of either.

Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side?

I'm coming in very late in this discussion. I was one who had thought that Snape and Dumbledore had cooked up some scheme to fake his death and allow Snape to infiltrate the Death Eaters. But today I read the FAQ's and it appears that JKR has put the question of Dumbledore's death to rest. I was shocked (again). Lol! But his death changes a lot of my theories.

IMO, if dumbledore was indeed killed by Snape, then I cannot imagine any situation which could excuse this. Even if Snape were trying to infiltrate the Death Eaters, I cannot imagine a so-called good guy killing the beloved Headmaster of Hogwarts. Maybe i'm missing something, but it appears that Snape is evil after all and that, alas, Professor Dumbledore is indeed...dead.

:(

I swear I'm not trying to nitpick but couldn't DD calm expression be that of a person who is no longer suffering. I imagine that he had been in pain, as well as exhausted after all.


Nitpicking is not against CoS Forums rules. ;) Nor do I mind it (how could I, I do it myself!) It absolutely could be, I am not suggesting that I can prove either that Snape is good, or that Dumbledore asked him to perform the killing (though I believe both, myself). Just that I think the scene sa written is wholly consistent with such a scenario, and certain little details, even of a 'face value' reading of the events, do not point to the 'evil' conclusion. (Others do, like the Big One - Snape killed Dumbledore!)

Of course, if he was suffering that much, this could point to another theory which has been proposed in the past - that it was a mercy killing in part.


As far as establishing loyalty...maybe...or just as likely Voldemort, being as suspicious as he is, might take it as a sign that Snape is out to usurp Voldy's throne (after all Voldy has never manged to kill DD now has he?) Might'nt people start looking to Snape as the new Dark Lord? It's as likely as anything else.

I meant establishing non-loyalty to Dumbledore, Harry, and the Order. It is my opinion that Voldemort would entertain such suspicions about all his Death Eaters, since reaching for power in that way is what Voldemort would do in their place.

The most that Snape can now accomplish with the Order will be in a completely anonymous fashion. And quite frankly why would the Order rely on such info?

They might ignore the first bit of information. But what if it proves reliable? Do they keep ignoring it? There is even a plausible source for such information - it is implied Dumbledore ran a network of spies, among whom Snape was merely the one most familiar to Harry and us. If Dumbledore died unexpectedly, such information could be one of those folks trying to get in touch. This is a problem that can be gotten around with the right plot, meaning that if Rowling wants it to happen, it will.

Or, what if the information is so explosively important it cannot be ignored? A warning about a planned DE raid on the Weasley Wedding, or the alleged location of the unknown Ravenclaw Horcrux suggest themselves as two pieces of information I can't imagine Harry ignoring.

I'm coming in very late in this discussion. I was one who had thought that Snape and Dumbledore had cooked up some scheme to fake his death and allow Snape to infiltrate the Death Eaters. But today I read the FAQ's and it appears that JKR has put the question of Dumbledore's death to rest. I was shocked (again). Lol! But his death changes a lot of my theories.


What was your preferred theory for how such a plan was supposed to work? I figure it involved hiding Draco, which would be necessary in light of Snape's Unbreakable Vow. (Otherwise Snape would just die anyway, so there would be no point to the plan - a dead man can't spy).

Assuming you believed such a theory - suppose that Snape and Dumbledore truly had no idea Draco could get Death Eaters into the school (DD claims he did not; in the chapter where Snape and Draco talk, we see Draco refuses to discuss his plans with Snape, so this is not an unsupported supposition). What happened at the end of HBP, in my opinion, was such a plan gone awry due to underestimation of the danger posed by Draco's ingenuity.

So, Draco shows up in the Tower, and Dumbledore begins to put the plan, the hide Draco/fake death/whatever plan, into motion, by talking Draco into giving up his task and hiding. It looks like it is working - until the Death Eaters show up. If Dumbledore were able to defeat the Death Eaters alone, I presume he would have done so - I therefore deduce the potion affected him to the extent that he could not, not even if Fawkes had fetched his wand back for him.

So, unless someone shows up to rescue him, Dumbledore expects to die, and expects that his death will leave Harry alone with Draco and four Death Eaters. Dumbledore stalls for time, but the DEs are pushing Draco to do it, and have reached the point of stating that if he does not, he should step aside so someone else could - in other words, time has run out.

Enter Snape. What are his options? He can openly declare himself for Dumbledore by trying to take out the DEs, only, oops, that would violate the terms of the Vow. The outcome of such an attempt would be the death of Snape, with no change in the situation - Dumbledore would still be helpless and surrounded by Death Eaters, and Harry would be in danger once Dumbledore died and he was free to move. Snape could let another Death Eater do the job, perhaps, but how is that better than doing it himself? I mean, in practical terms. Or, Snape could do it himself, which makes him, not someone else, Voldemort's Employee of the Month. And the man in charge, so noone questions him when he orders them out, orders them to leave Harry, etc.

The third option, the one Snape took, has the best outcome for his side. I think Dumbledore saw that immediately, and the pleading that so frightened Harry happened because he feared Snape would not. I think he was asking Snape to kill him, because he knew Snape's only 'good' option, to die trying to save him, would save nobody, and place Harry in danger.

In your previous post, you suggested Snape could have stayed to explain himself to McGonagall, with the support of Dumbledore's portrait. This would remain an option at a later date, surely? Both she and the portrait are still around.

Yes, that is true. However, now that Snape has escaped with Draco, there was ample time for conclusions to already be drawn. For instance, what is the impression that Snape's flight emanates? One of cowardice and deception, two symptoms of guilt. Now, this can be taken more ways than one, but I am essentially saying that the Order has already made their judgement on Snape's loyalty. Was it right for them to make such judgement? Probably not. But they did, and that opinion cannot be wavered easily. We still do not know the lengths to which Snape went to persuade DD of his loyalty, and as DD has not explained them, we can justly assume that they were quite involved. Therefore, I think it will take a whole lot more than a dish about the "Dark Side" for them to accept him again.

Dumbledore claims to have known all about Draco's orders from the start, and to know he was behind the other incidents. He has had a long time to think about it, so he would not be surprised, and he has apparently reached the conclusion that Draco's heart is not in it (as he explains in that scene). I presume he knows about the orders because Snape told him, by the way-otherwise it seems a rather odd conclusion to jump to early on.

Actually, DD had a hunch about Draco, but did not really know any of the details or general schemes involved. When Draco explains about the coin w/ Rosmerta and the pair of Vanishing Cabinets, we can see that DD is "proud" (I use this term loosly and hesitantly) of the brilliance and simplicity of such a plan. Had he been completely aware, his behavoir would not have been so.

Also, we were shown throughout HBP that Draco absolutely refused to confide anything in Snape; he was afraid that Snape would "steal his glory."

So, from that quote, we can establish two things:
(a) Draco did not tell Snape any details of his plan, making it impossible for DD to be completely aware prior to the scene in the tower, which fits with canon.
(b) Why would Draco be suspicious of Snape "stealing his glory" if Snape wasn't ambitious and "seeking glory"? We know that Snape was a Slytherin, a house for those "with great ambition" (quote: Sorting Hat, PS/SS). Snape was, whether his intentions be for the Order or the Death Eaters, working for Bellatrix and Narcissa. And, as that particular pact was sealed with the threat of death, there is no way Snape would break it.

Once again, the facts are facts, no matter the intentions behind them.

What was your preferred theory for how such a plan was supposed to work?
Well that would assume that I'm smart enough to figure out such a complicated plan. And I'm not. :lol: Jo has so thoroughly confused me with her mysteries that I'm just hanging on for the ride.

But...i will say a few things. While reading HBP, I just kept thinking that Dumbledore was acting....odd. He just didnt seem to be his usual self. Now there are lots of reasons this might be so (stress, war, death, magic). At one time I sort of suspected this Dumbledore might have been an imposter. Or perhaps he was under the influence of some spell. Or even that ring he wore. His hand was all shriveled up and I guess it could have been due to that ring. I dunno...Dumbledore just acted strangely to me. And so when he was killed, I was suspicious that this was an attempt to fake his death.

But when JKR said that he was indeed dead, well...i guess he is. :)

Actually, DD had a hunch about Draco, but did not really know any of the details or general schemes involved. When Draco explains about the coin w/ Rosmerta and the pair of Vanishing Cabinets, we can see that DD is "proud" (I use this term loosly and hesitantly) of the brilliance and simplicity of such a plan.

He, and Snape, I believe, were aware in the sense that they knew Draco had orders to assassinate Dumbledore. But did not know the details, as you point out. Nonetheless, that Draco would try to kill him, and had already tried twice, was not news to Dumbledore. That's all I was saying.

(b) Why would Draco be suspicious of Snape "stealing his glory" if Snape wasn't ambitious and "seeking glory"?

Because he can't think of a better reason and does not believe an old family friend and favorite teacher could be a traitor (to Draco's side)? Someone is wrong about Snape, the opinions of characters about him are mutually exclusive. Personally, I'm guessing Bella suggested this to Draco. We know they had contact - she taught him Occlumency. And she'd think it, because it is what she would do - she wants to be the Dark Lord's favorite.

Snape was, whether his intentions be for the Order or the Death Eaters, working for Bellatrix and Narcissa. And, as that particular pact was sealed with the threat of death, there is no way Snape would break it.

That is based on your evaluation of his character. I disagree. I think he has risked death as a spy during both wars, so I believe he would be capable of breaking an Unbreakable Vow if he deemed it necessary. Further, I believe Dumbledore holds the same view, hence his worry when Snape showed up.

One person did not seem to be surprised at all, and a very important one at that - Dumbledore himself. He also seems to have been calm, even satisfied, over the circumstances of his passing, judging from his facial expression at the time of death.
I have reread the scene on the tower. There is not a single description of how Dumbledore looks when he sees that Snape has arrived alone. There is a description of Dumbledore being slumped against the wall. "But somebody had spoken Snape's name, quite softly."
"Severus . . ."
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading." (bold added)

Harry had come from the cave, from a very frightening situation. He had watched Draco and the Death Eaters, fearful that Dumbledore would be killed any minute. But none of these things frightened Harry more than what Dumbledore said to Snape. If Dumbledore was calm and/or satisfied, I don't think he would have been pleading.

The expression that one wears when they die might have more to to with where they are going then where they had been.

I believe that at the end when everything hangs in the balance, snape will help harry and return to the good side. he may even kill voldemort.

I've gone back and forth several times, but I think Snape is on Voldemort's side at the moment. I don't think Dumbledore asked to be murdered, not because Dumbledore was afraid, but because he didn't want Snape, Draco, or anyone to have to split their souls. I just can't see him asking a close friend to sacrifice his whole soul. Plus, if he is able to get inside information on the death eaters, how is he going to get that information to the Order? They don't trust him at all. So unless Dumbledore left a memo in desk drawer saying something like, "Dear Order, Don't worry if Snape kills me. I asked him to," I don't see how he could ever go back.

It reminds me a little of when Harry stopped Sirius and Lupin from killing Pettigrew in the Shrieking Shack in Chapter 19 of POA

(I'm paraphrasing a bit) I don't think my dad would want you to become killers just for him(Pettigrew) If Harry thinks James wouldn't want Sirius and Remus to kill Peter, in spite of what he did, then I think the same line of thought holds for Dumbledore. He wouldn't want Snape to become a killer just for him.

But if I turn out to be totally wrong, that's okay too.

There is not a single description of how Dumbledore looks when he sees that Snape has arrived alone.
That is correct, the calm, sleeplike look which I suggest indicates he was not shocked by Snape's action is described at the foot of the Tower, when Harry finds the body after chasing the Death Eaters. The only clue we have to his emotions when Snape first enters the top of the tower is tone of voice. His immediate reaction is highly emotional, and frightening to Harry. He pleads with Snape. The question is, for what?

To me, it makes no sense for this pleading to be for rescue, for mercy, or for Snape to reconsider the killing. If this were meant, there should be a moment in time when Dumbledore, who 'trusts Severus Snape completely' goes from seeing a trusted ally, to seeing a potential murderer, and that is just not shown. His immediate reaction to the arrival of his trusted ally is to plead with him. To me, this suggests it is for Snape to take a course of action one would not usually expect of an ally.

If Dumbledore was calm and/or satisfied, I don't think he would have been pleading.

My position is that Dumbledore was neither calm nor satisfied when Dumbledore spoke. Dumbledore feared Snape would atttempt a rescue, thus sacrificing his own life to no good effect, and he did not want this to happen. He was calm and satisfied when he realized he had successfully communicated his wishes to Snape, and that Snape would carry them out.

The expression that one wears when they die might have more to to with where they are going then where they had been.

Cedric Diggory died with a look of surprise on his face. The three Riddles had looks of extreme horror, leading to rumors among the Muggles who saw the scene that they had died of fright. Based on these four cases, it seems likely to me that these expressions were about the emotion at the time of death, not about the afterlife for which they were bound (is that what you mean by 'where they are going'?) The Riddles must have been terrified by Voldemort, and Cedric surely was surprised, he had not figured out what was going on before Peter cast the spell.

I remember as a kid reading Aesops fables, anyone remember them? There was one story in it about a war between the birds and the beasts that was fought for a long time.
At then end of the war, the bat revealed himself to having been a double agent, only appearing on one side when they were winning. He thought himself extraordinarily clever but when it was revealed at the end both the birds and the beasts turned their back on the bat.

how many references are there to snape being bat like?
I think ultimately Snape is looking out for Snape. but the fact still remains that Snape killed. It wasnt even who he killed but the mere fact that he did kill. The only people to have killed in this entire series are bad people. Even Moody killing the spider was a DE in disguise. So if JK backtracks and says oh no Snape is good I will be very disappointed in her.
I think the reason he didnt fight Harry at the end of HBP was because he was still reeling from having been forced to make a choice. I think maybe he was playing both sides up until then and the moment for a choice between what was right and what was easy came. And at that exact moment choosing the DEs was the easier option. He may already be showing regret for it by giving Harry advice but Snape has made his choice.

To me, it makes no sense for this pleading to be for rescue, for mercy, or for Snape to reconsider the killing. I agree completely. I have so often seen people only give two options as to what Dumbledore may have been pleading with Snape for. The two things most people think he is saying is, Snape please don't kill me, or Snape, please kill me. I don't think it is either of these two things. Dumbledore has been working to defeat Voldemort for a long time. Harry Potter is the key. He has to be kept alive to find the horcruxes and vanquish Voldemort. He knows that Harry will continue to be Voldemort's target until one of them is killed. I think that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to remember his promise to protect Harry and help him achieve his task. If this were meant, there should be a moment in time when Dumbledore, who 'trusts Severus Snape completely' goes from seeing a trusted ally, to seeing a potential murderer, and that is just not shown. His immediate reaction to the arrival of his trusted ally is to plead with him. To me, this suggests it is for Snape to take a course of action one would not usually expect of an ally.I think that Dumbledore instantly saw that Snape had gone from a trusted ally to a potential murder. He knew that he was going to be killed. He had a few seconds in which to give Snape the final message. What would be the most important thing that he could tell Snape? "Severus, please don't return to being a Death Eater." "Severus, please don't kill anyone else?" There are so many things that Dumbledore could be trying to tell Snape in the last seconds of life. I agree with you that it wasn't "Severus, don't kill me".

Cedric Diggory died with a look of surprise on his face. The three Riddles had looks of extreme horror, leading to rumors among the Muggles who saw the scene that they had died of fright. Based on these four cases, it seems likely to me that these expressions were about the emotion at the time of death, not about the afterlife for which they were bound (is that what you mean by 'where they are going'?) The Riddles must have been terrified by Voldemort, and Cedric surely was surprised, he had not figured out what was going on before Peter cast the spell.I thought that you might have been referring to this. But in the examples you have given, these victims had no idea what was about to happen to them. Dumbledore was well aware of the fact that he was going to die when Snape arrived at the tower scene alone. When the Death Eater said, "Snape, we have a problem here." Dumbledore knew that Harry had been right all along. Death is just the next great adventure, after all. Dumbledore was not afraid to die. But I do not think he asked to be killed.

I remember as a kid reading Aesops fables, anyone remember them? There was one story in it about a war between the birds and the beasts that was fought for a long time.
At then end of the war, the bat revealed himself to having been a double agent, only appearing on one side when they were winning. He thought himself extraordinarily clever but when it was revealed at the end both the birds and the beasts turned their back on the bat.

how many references are there to snape being bat like?
I think ultimately Snape is looking out for Snape. but the fact still remains that Snape killed. It wasnt even who he killed but the mere fact that he did kill. The only people to have killed in this entire series are bad people. Even Moody killing the spider was a DE in disguise. So if JK backtracks and says oh no Snape is good I will be very disappointed in her.
I think the reason he didnt fight Harry at the end of HBP was because he was still reeling from having been forced to make a choice. I think maybe he was playing both sides up until then and the moment for a choice between what was right and what was easy came. And at that exact moment choosing the DEs was the easier option. He may already be showing regret for it by giving Harry advice but Snape has made his choice.

I can't agree with that. I was re-reading Goblet of Fire and in it it talks about how Crouch gave orders to the Aurors that they were allowed to kill people on Voldemort's side. Which suggests at some point the Aurors killed people and they were on the good side.

Plus I all think it comes down to your intentions. If Harry goes out tomorrow and kills Voldemort will he suddenly become a bad person? Sometimes there's a bigger picture involved. It might not be the case here but I don't think killing can be purely an act that is commited by evil people.

I remember as a kid reading Aesops fables, anyone remember them? There was one story in it about a war between the birds and the beasts that was fought for a long time.
At then end of the war, the bat revealed himself to having been a double agent, only appearing on one side when they were winning. He thought himself extraordinarily clever but when it was revealed at the end both the birds and the beasts turned their back on the bat.

how many references are there to snape being bat like?
I think ultimately Snape is looking out for Snape. but the fact still remains that Snape killed. It wasnt even who he killed but the mere fact that he did kill. The only people to have killed in this entire series are bad people. Even Moody killing the spider was a DE in disguise. So if JK backtracks and says oh no Snape is good I will be very disappointed in her.
I think the reason he didnt fight Harry at the end of HBP was because he was still reeling from having been forced to make a choice. I think maybe he was playing both sides up until then and the moment for a choice between what was right and what was easy came. And at that exact moment choosing the DEs was the easier option. He may already be showing regret for it by giving Harry advice but Snape has made his choice.

Very good point, ive havnt come across a point like this so far on these boards. Goes back too choices, something that DD reminds Harry off a few chapters earlier, when Harry thought he didnt have a choice off fighting Voldemort. Also like some said, i really dont see anyway Snape can return. He is a marked man by every auror basically lol. Unless, their is something the order or someone in the order knows about a Snape and DD plan. Because really it wasnt discussed at end of book 6, a few members were stunned, but i suspect we get a clear indication of anything early on in book 7. Ill say its unlikely anyone knows of this plan, if it does exist.

The topic of is Snape good or bad is so incredibly difficult too find a firm footing on. Their are pretty solid assumption we can make for him being good , while their the same we can make for him being bad. Mconagal made a statment late like, we were always weary of snape, but you know DD always had 100% proof.

"He always HINTED that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snap" - McGongall

If anything a hint by DD would seem pretty meaningfull in my eyes, i caught on too that after i reread the book a second time recently. Ive always thought he was good, but had somewhat waffled back and forth. Honestly got no clue what he is anymore lol.

To me, it makes no sense for this pleading to be for rescue, for mercy, or for Snape to reconsider the killing. If this were meant, there should be a moment in time when Dumbledore, who 'trusts Severus Snape completely' goes from seeing a trusted ally, to seeing a potential murderer, and that is just not shown. His immediate reaction to the arrival of his trusted ally is to plead with him. To me, this suggests it is for Snape to take a course of action one would not usually expect of an ally.
I agree. One would assume Dumbledore's emotions would betray at least an inkling of anger, should one of his most trusted allies have double-crossed him. However, it didn't seem Dumbledore was angry, but rather somewhat sad. We know that he was not afraid of death (in PS, he says that "death is but the next great adventure."). So, therefore, the only possible option that comes to mind is that he is willing Snape to commit an act against Snape's own will.

Cedric Diggory died with a look of surprise on his face. The three Riddles had looks of extreme horror, leading to rumors among the Muggles who saw the scene that they had died of fright. Based on these four cases, it seems likely to me that these expressions were about the emotion at the time of death, not about the afterlife for which they were bound (is that what you mean by 'where they are going'?) The Riddles must have been terrified by Voldemort, and Cedric surely was surprised, he had not figured out what was going on before Peter cast the spell.
Great point here. Generally, people who die prematurely or unexpectedly would have an expression showing more surprise, or fear, or whatever emotion they may be feeling. Therefore, it can be concluded that the more unexpected the death, the more emotive the reaction of the person. Considering how Dumbledore seemed oddly tranquil at his time of death, it must be concluded that he was not flustered by the sudden prospect of death, but rather expected it and was unafraid of its possibilities

There are just too many "if he's truly evil, why...?" Such as:

If he's truly evil, why did he alert Dumbledore that the Potters had become Voldemort's target?

If he's truly evil, why didn't he return immediately when he felt the Dark Mark burning? When everyone else returned? He's the greatest Legillimens along with Voldemort and Dumbledore, he could always lie to Dumbledore. If he could so easily fool him with his remorse tale, then he'd hardly have any difficulties lying to him about not having been there. I just don't buy his story how he was concerned about his place as a spy at Hogwarts, and I can't understand how Bellatrix could buy it.

There are just too many "if he's truly evil, why...?" Such as:

If he's truly evil, why did he alert Dumbledore that the Potters had become Voldemort's target? He is not truly evil. A person is not one thing or the other. There is no black and white. People are not all good or all evil. Snape is not all good or all bad. Trying to put him in one category is impossible.

how many references are there to snape being bat like?
Voldemort is the one who really compares Snape to a "great bat" at the end of Book One, and he is being derogatory because he thinks Snape is good.

But in Harry's mind, Snape is compared to two other creatures - the dragon and the hippogriff.

In Chapter 11, CoS, harry thinks that 'Deliberately causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class was about as safe as poking a sleeping dragon in the eye' which sounds alot like the school motto, "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus" ("Never tickle a sleeping dragon"). In Fantastic Beasts, there are two British Dragons - one is the Welsh Green, and the other is the Hebridean Black, which is the most wild and associated with Scotland - where JKR lives. It has "batlike wings." :) Interestingly, the Hebridean Black feeds on deer and dogs - wink wink. :lol:

In PoA, Harry thinks that staring into Snape's eyes is "exactly" like staring into the eyes of a Hippogriff, which is associated with pride, trust and truth. ("Snape's Grudge")

Those two powerful creatures are also associated with Harry, and with the trait of being "macho."

In HBP, we read:



"Three Dementor attacks in a week, and all Romilda Vane does is ask me if it's true you've got a Hippogriff tattooed across your chest.'"
Ron and Hermione both roared with laughter. Harry ignored them.
"What did you tell her?"
"I told her it's a Hungarian Horntail," said Ginny, turning a page of the newspaper idly. 'Much more macho."
"Thanks," said Harry, grinning." And what did you tell her Ron's got?"
"A Pygmy Puff, but I didn't say where."