Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v4

My take on that particular instance is that it wasn't significant - I don't think Dumbledore was as weakened then as he was at the end of Book 6
That isn't what Dumbledore says:



"Had it not been--forgive me the lack of seemly modesty--for my own prodigious skill, and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale..."



That sounds very serious to me, and the withered hand is prominent throughout the book. Harry even notices that Dumbledore is having trouble using his wand at one point. So it must be significant.


Even when you're plotting against someone, you're bound to pass over certain opportunities looking for the right one
But that "opportunity" happened before Book Six begins, and Snape lies about it to Bella. He mentions that Dumbledore is weakened by an injury, with no mention of the fact that he helped save him from the curse. :)

Also, if Snape already knew of LV's plans to have Draco kill DD, he wouldn't want to interfere, possibly - give Draco the chance to prove himself - and that might have occurred before Narcissa made her plea to Snape.
If Snape already knew, and wasn't interfering, then why did Harry overhear Snape trying to interfere at Christmastime in Book 6. Was that all a mind game? And why did Snape look "scared" when he saw Draco at the party, if he is so sure what Draco is doing?

I believe Voldemort had clearly given Draco the task - that's clear because Narcissa knows about it. But there is little evidence that Snape knows what the task is, or that he knows what it is at Christmas.

And knowing that Snape hates werewolves, would he really let Fenrir Greyback into the castle if he had known in advance? I just don't believe that.

Haha, knowing that Snape hates werewolves . . . good one.

Snape knew what the task was. Narcissa tossed it in during the UV asking that if Draco is unable to complete the task, would Snape do it. His hand trembled for a moment because she threw it in last second and he had to go through with the Vow or risk blowing his cover. He read Narcissa's mind when turning to the window because at first he played dumb, then, in her weakened state used Legilimency and saw that Draco was asked to kill Dumbledore. He wanted to push for information on this because he wasn't made aware of this plot by Voldemort, which that alone is something he was nervous about, and could have influenced Dumbledore to consider Snape killing him for effect if need be. But that's going with the theory that Snape and Dumbledore planned the murder should it come down to it.

Point being, Snape knew of the task for Draco and wanted to gather more info on it, but he got wrapped up in the trap Narcissa laid out. I think he felt he would either die for Dumbledore or he could work around the Vow because it left a lot of doors open. But nevertheless, Snape knew what Draco was trying to do, he just could never persuade Draco to let him in on the plans. That's why Snape was scared, because so much was at stake and it somewhat rested on the recklessness of a 16 year old boy. Plus, look at the ending, if Flitwick hadn't gotten Snape, what would have happened? What would have happened had Harry gotten to Snape and brought him back? Snape wasn't aware of the attack on the castle until he was alerted, and then under very dubious circumstances managed to have Hermione and Luna look after Flitwick, who I still think had fallen over on his own accord. I mean, where was the point in knocking him out as it was suggested? Snape didn't know Hermione and Luna were outside, so there was no point to knocking Flitwick out! Furthermore, as soon as he leaves the room, he mentions to Hermione and Luna to take care of Flitwick because he fell over. It's all circumstantial for Hermione to have claimed that Snape must have Stunned Flitwick. Besides, if Snape is really some big, evil, powerful killer, why merely Stun someone and then ask two girls to attend to the Stunee? Why not kill 'em all?!!! There's really no logic to those who think Snape is evil because there are so many elements in the story which outright contradict the idea that he's evil.

I believe that Snape is to be trusted. Sure, he killed Dumbledore, but I am confident that it was staged. The argument Hagrid overheard between the two I think is Snape, not talking about his double-agent role, but the role of killing Dumbledore.

You see, I could be way off here, but I think that Dumbledore has sacrificed himself for Harry and in doing so, gave him a protection of Love, much like Lily did for Harry. Different though it may be, by 'freezing' Harry, he saved his life. Why wouldn't he just defend himself against the intruder? After all, he took on several ministry members single-handedly and is the greatest wizard in the World. But by freezing Harry, he saved his life, thus giving him supreme protection. Remember Dumbledore requesting firmly that Harry get Professor Snape? The setup was about to commence. Of course, it didn't matter that it wasn't Severus who came up first because the 'saving' of Harry was completed anyway.

I understand that Harry's protection from Lily will cease once he comes of age. But perhaps this is the next stage of protection... I'm not sure. I didn't write the last book after all. Just a thought...

Death was nothing to Dumbledore anyway. He will still be a guide to Harry. I mean, the portraits try, but they can't always fake being asleep... Killing him, was not taking him out of the picture.

Any thoughts people?

but I think that Dumbledore has sacrificed himself for Harry and in doing so, gave him a protection of Love, much like Lily did for Harry.
The love protection doesn't work like that. He wasn't given an option to stand aside and allow Harry die. Lily was given a chance to live (and watch Harry die), but then chose to die instead. Dumbledore was never given that chance.

Yeah maybe. But then, how do we exactly know how the Love spell works? Isn't it only explained as a sacrifice made to save someone? Could petrifying Harry when it was evident that danger was literally on the other side of the door, have qualified I wonder?

Yeah maybe. But then, how do we exactly know how the Love spell works? Isn't it only explained as a sacrifice made to save someone? Could petrifying Harry when it was evident that danger was literally on the other side of the door, have qualified I wonder?We do know how the ancient magic works because JKR has explained it to us on her website and in interviews. It is not just a sacrifice. You have to specifically been given a chance to live first and then give that up in the hope of saving the other person's life.

Oh ok. Thanx 4 clearing that up Mate. Cheers

No problem. The ancient magic that protected Harry is very confusing.

Something to think about...

I was re-reading book 4 and when Karkaroff announces Snape as a death eater in the courts Dumbledore says (not an exact quote), "Snape was indeed a Death Eater, but he rejoined our side before Voldemort's downfall..."

But in book 6 when Harry is talking to Trelawney outside the ROR, she says that Snape overheard the conversation, and we know that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy...

SO... with the order of events that we have we can make two conclusions: when Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy did Voldemort order him to play spy for him and act on both sides OR did Voldemort tell Snape that he was going to kill the Potters and Snape felt bad and decided to tell Dumbledore that he told Voldemort about the prophecy?

Something to think about...

I was re-reading book 4 and when Karkaroff announces Snape as a death eater in the courts Dumbledore says (not an exact quote), "Snape was indeed a Death Eater, but he rejoined our side before Voldemort's downfall..."

But in book 6 when Harry is talking to Trelawney outside the ROR, she says that Snape overheard the conversation, and we know that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy...

SO... with the order of events that we have we can make two conclusions: when Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy did Voldemort order him to play spy for him and act on both sides OR did Voldemort tell Snape that he was going to kill the Potters and Snape felt bad and decided to tell Dumbledore that he told Voldemort about the prophecy?

I am pretty sure Snape had no idea it was the Potters Voldy would go after. And he knew James and "hated" him. But he felt so bad about it (which shows he does have compassion) he switched moments before LV kicked it.

SO... with the order of events that we have we can make two conclusions: when Snape told Voldemort about the prophecy did Voldemort order him to play spy for him and act on both sides OR did Voldemort tell Snape that he was going to kill the Potters and Snape felt bad and decided to tell Dumbledore that he told Voldemort about the prophecy?


It does not make sense to me that Voldemort would permit Snape to tell Dumbledore about his plans to kill the Potters, because that could have prevented it completely. Voldemort had no way to know that the Potters would choose a Death Eater as their Secret Keeper, since thay had plenty of other alternatives (Dumbledore offered, Sirius and Lupin, probably among others, were their friends).

But it seems he probably did order Snape to spy on Dumbledore, since Snape tells Bella he took the teaching job at Hogwarts on the Dark Lord's orders. Whether this was at the same time as Snape decided to warn Dumbledore, or after, is unclear.

It does not make sense to me that Voldemort would permit Snape to tell Dumbledore about his plans to kill the Potters, because that could have prevented it completely.

I agree. Here Snape difinitely made that partiular decision by himself, and volunteered to alert Dumbledore, which shows, quite clearly, acting at odds with Voldemort's will - not very loyal. And that's just one.

There are other instances as well - we know from Spinners End's conversation that the Death Eaters have no idea that it was Snape who sent the Order to the Ministry. That also is something done against his Master's orders and not in his favour, which is yet again acting against him. Why didn't Snape tell the Death Eaters he had sent the Order to the Ministry? He could have at least warned Voldemort about it, but he doesn't. Why?

Another moment of disloyalty to Voldemort is when he doesn't go to the graveyard isntantly. That's practically risking his life - a note for those who think Snape always acts in a way to save his own skin. He could have gone and lied to Dumbledore about it later - if he's managed to hoodwink him for all those years, he'd hardly have a problem telling him a singe lie. Yet he doesn't appear at the graveyard until Dumbldore tells him to. He tells Bella that he did it to secure his place as a spy at Hogwarts - if that's true, then his first concern would be Voldemort's success, which contradicts his actions described in my previous point.

Another one is when he shows Fudge the Dark Mark in order to convince him that Voldemort is indeed back - not very consistent with his bing loyal to Voldemort and even less so with his acting for his own good.

Overall, these ations contradict each other if they are done by a "bad" or a "selfish" Snape. To me it's pretty clear that they all mean the same - Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders on in ways to ensure what Dumbledore would have wanted.

Hi everyone, just wanted to suggest, perhaps could those who had religiously followed this thread since the first 3 threads just come up with a sticky that goes something like:

Theory/Evidence supporting Snape is evil:
1.

Theory/Evidence supporting Snape is actually good and will return:
2.

... for the benefit of those like me, who have not been up to date with the discussion here... The thought of rereading the first 3 threads plus another 71 pages of discussion in this thread is really maddening! (Though come to think of it, reading all the posts is possible and I might even come up with the list IF I finish reading all the discussion. Lol. I'm already starting my re-readings of the 6 books in preparation for HPDH, and once I'm done with those, if I have extra time, perhaps I will start on these threads... ;) )

Hi everyone, just wanted to suggest, perhaps could those who had religiously followed this thread since the first 3 threads just come up with a sticky that goes something like:

Theory/Evidence supporting Snape is evil:
1.

Theory/Evidence supporting Snape is actually good and will return:
2.

... for the benefit of those like me, who have not been up to date with the discussion here...

First, feel free to dive right in. Second, that would be a good idea but we have not done it. Coincidentally, a long list of reasons he's good is available in this post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4447121&postcount=1159), on another thread. (Warning - that thread does not permit free discussion of these ideas, if you want to post there, read the rules in post 1).

I just finished reading the Harry Potter series the other day and I stumbled upon this website recently so I became a member.

Anyways, I don't really like Snape but I'm 99% sure that he is going to end up being a good guy all along. I don't know how it's going to happen but I do know that Dumbledore trusted(trusts?) him and we'll find out why in Book 7.

Hi, 123Fray! Welcome to CoS! :wave:

I'm always curious to hear from people who have a fresh view of Snape on their first reading of the books. Of course, those of us who think he is still on Harry's side have some good company, such as Salman Rushdie, the writer who asked JKR about Snape last summer.


Hi everyone, just wanted to suggest, perhaps could those who had religiously followed this thread since the first 3 threads just come up with a sticky that goes something like:

Theory/Evidence supporting Snape is evil:
1.

Theory/Evidence supporting Snape is actually good and will return:
2.

... for the benefit of those like me, who have not been up to date with the discussion here...
Hi, Estival 7. :) We have three different threads for Snape in the History of Magic Section, Legillimency Studies (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=145). I suggest you read bits of each of them and you'll soon discover the different reasons people believe one way or another.

I may be the only person who thinks this, but here goes. I believe Snape is currently neither good nor evil.

I think Snape is currently self serving, and had planned all along to be 'loyal' to whomever came out ahead. I don't think that the goodness or evilness of his choices has truly mattered to him- only how they have affected him personally.

I think that he intends to wait until the last second and choose sides based on who is winning. I also think that he will be forced to make his decision based, instead, on genuine awareness of good or evil and the things he has done. I believe that his choice remains to be seen and could go either way, depending on whether he chooses the right or easy way- to choose love of others and responsibility to them or to continue to choose his old hatreds and resentments.

That is my view of Snape.

I may be the only person who thinks this, but here goes. I believe Snape is currently neither good nor evil.

I think Snape is currently self serving, and had planned all along to be 'loyal' to whomever came out ahead. I don't think that the goodness or evilness of his choices has truly mattered to him- only how they have affected him personally.

I think that he intends to wait until the last second and choose sides based on who is winning. I also think that he will be forced to make his decision based, instead, on genuine awareness of good or evil and the things he has done. I believe that his choice remains to be seen and could go either way, depending on whether he chooses the right or easy way- to choose love of others and responsibility to them or to continue to choose his old hatreds and resentments.

That is my view of Snape.

You're not alone. I have a similar view on Snape. I never thought that Snape would make a good servant but he isn't a leader either. That's why I always preferred the view that Snape is out for himself. Whether he will come back to the good side depends on outward circumstances.

I may be the only person who thinks this, but here goes. I believe Snape is currently neither good nor evil.

I think Snape is currently self serving, and had planned all along to be 'loyal' to whomever came out ahead. I don't think that the goodness or evilness of his choices has truly mattered to him- only how they have affected him personally.

I think that he intends to wait until the last second and choose sides based on who is winning. I also think that he will be forced to make his decision based, instead, on genuine awareness of good or evil and the things he has done. I believe that his choice remains to be seen and could go either way, depending on whether he chooses the right or easy way- to choose love of others and responsibility to them or to continue to choose his old hatreds and resentments.

If you think Snape is self-serving, do you think he showed Dumbledore his Dark Mark becoming clearer before the graveyard scene? If not, why did he wait for Dumbledore's orders to go to Voldemort, when not appearing instantly meant practically risking his life; and when he could have easily lied to Dumbledore about not having been there?

If he he did show it, why would he? He didn't have enough information to decide who to side with, so if he is self-serving, the wise thing to do would have been to go to the graveyard to secure his Death Eater place, and then decide how to behave around Dumbledore. Showing him his Mark in advance means actually aiding Dumbledore by providing him with valuable information before the actual rise of Voldemort.

Of course, those of us who think he is still on Harry's side have some good company, such as Salman Rushdie, the writer who asked JKR about Snape last summer. Salmon Rushdie felt that as long as Dumbledore wasn't really dead, then Snape could not be considered bad. He wasn't too clear on how he felt about the matter once JK Rowling confirmed that Dumbledore was dead.

This is what LadyofthePensieve had posted on the Common Room section, J"K Rowling in New York" thread. She transcribed it: This shall be Salman Rushdie´s words.

Rushdie: It has always been made plain that Snape might be an unlikable fellow, but he was essentially one of the good guys. (Massive cheering) Dumbledore himself has always vouched for him. Now we know that Snape is a villain and Dumbledore’s killed. We cannot, or don’t, want to believe this. (Cheering and laughter). Our theory is that Snape is in fact still a good guy. We propose that Dumbledore can’t really be dead. That this in fact is a ruse, cooked up between Dumbledore and Snape to put Voldemort off his guard. Harry then will have more friends than he knows when he and Voldemort do face. So, is Snape good or bad? (Massive cheering). It’s plain to see, everything follows from this. (Cheering)

Jo: Your opinion, I would say, is right. However, I see I am going to have to be more explicit and say Dumbledore is definitely dead.
My interpretation of Rushdie's question, "So, is Snape good or bad? It’s plain to see, everything follows from this." is that Dumbledore's death answers his question of whether Snape is good or bad.

My interpretation of Rushdie's question, "So, is Snape good or bad? It’s plain to see, everything follows from this." is that Dumbledore's death answers his question of whether Snape is good or bad.

The fact that he was an aliver, however, suggests that his view of Snape was 'good'. His reasons given for believing Dumbledore was alive were not technicalities (the AK looked funny, Dumbledore bled at the bottom of the Tower, we never saw the body at the funeral, etc.) The conclusion seems to have flowed from the idea that Snape is an unlikable fellow, but on the right side as Dumbledore always insisted.

Thanks, Madron! I don't feel so alone now. :)

If you think Snape is self-serving, do you think he showed Dumbledore his Dark Mark becoming clearer before the graveyard scene? If not, why did he wait for Dumbledore's orders to go to Voldemort, when not appearing instantly meant practically risking his life; and when he could have easily lied to Dumbledore about not having been there?

If he he did show it, why would he?

Because it serves his own interests to appear loyal to both sides when with each.

Snape is the master of doing things that seem to benefit both sides to a certain extent. This is necessary to preserve his ability to change sides when he saw who was likely to win. Even now, despite his murder of Dumbledore, many see obvious ways he could play that into a 'good' act. He is still on the fence and free to choose sides even now.

He didn't have enough information to decide who to side with, so if he is self-serving, the wise thing to do would have been to go to the graveyard to secure his Death Eater place, and then decide how to behave around Dumbledore. Showing him his Mark in advance means actually aiding Dumbledore by providing him with valuable information before the actual rise of Voldemort.

Then he would have been loyal to Voldemort, not expertly maintaining his position in the middle by convincing each side he was theirs. Just about everything Snape has ever done can be explained in a way that shows him as 'loyal' to either side- these debates are excellent evidence of that.

Also, it's not lack of information I see causing this neutrality, but lack of concern with anyone's fate but his own. I don't think he will willingly take a side until a clear winner is evident. I can see a great deal of his rage on the tower being at what he saw as Dumbledore's situation forcing him into a position where it will be very difficult for him to maintain that middle ground.

I think his choice to show true loyalty to any side based on a non selfish motive remains to be made. I cannot predict which way it will go- it will be whatever serves the story.

(the AK looked funny, Dumbledore bled at the bottom of the Tower, we never saw the body at the funeral, etc.)


The AK looked funny..so did expelliarmus when Harry attacked Snape in the shrieking shack. Did Harry mentally cast another spell instead of expelliarmus?

Bleeding at the foot of the tower...um, his dead body just fell twenty stories. I believe recently deceased bodies can still bleed. It takes a while for rigormortis to set in.

Just because we didn't see doesn't mean it wasn' there. And even if it wasn't, JKR confirmed his death so what does the funeral matter?

I think an important distinction needs to be made. I don't think that Snape is fundamentally a good person, but I believe that he is loyal to Dumbledore. I think that Snape shows that you can fight for what is right without being a saint.

The AK looked funny..so did expelliarmus when Harry attacked Snape in the shrieking shack. Did Harry mentally cast another spell instead of expelliarmus?

Bleeding at the foot of the tower...um, his dead body just fell twenty stories. I believe recently deceased bodies can still bleed. It takes a while for rigormortis to set in.

Just because we didn't see doesn't mean it wasn' there. And even if it wasn't, JKR confirmed his death so what does the funeral matter?

I dunno what to think... BUT if he was alive i still would think JK would confirm his death... Why would she ruin one of the biggest secrets ever.

In Harry's case Voldemort will relentlessly persue him. There is no other option for Harry. It is kill or be killed. In Harry's case it is self-defense in the face of an enemy. I would never suggest that DD would say to Harry "Don't defend yourself if someone is trying to kill you."

Dumbledore would have said to Harry that he didn't want him to KILL Voldemort if he didn't think it would be ethical or something. DD thinks Harry may have to kill him, although personally, I don't think the the AK curse is going to be used to do it.


I dunno what to think... BUT if he was alive i still would think JK would confirm his death... Why would she ruin one of the biggest secrets ever.

Thanks for saying so, I've always wanted to say that. Hope remains...::sigh::

Because it serves his own interests to appear loyal to both sides when with each.

But by not coming to the graveyard instantly, he doesn't appear loyal to Voldemort, when it wasn't necessary for him to stay - he could have lied to Dubledore about it. The normal thing for a self-serving Snape to have done is to go to the graveyard instantly - first to secure his life and place on the DE list, and then return to being a Dumbeldore's trustee. But he waits, although he's risking his life by it.

Snape is the master of doing things that seem to benefit both sides to a certain extent. This is necessary to preserve his ability to change sides when he saw who was likely to win. Even now, despite his murder of Dumbledore, many see obvious ways he could play that into a 'good' act. He is still on the fence and free to choose sides even now.

Telling Dumbledore that Voldemort had decided on the Potters is not something that would benefit Voldemort. Not alering the Death Eaters that he had sent the Order to the Ministry is not something that would benefit Voldemort - although he had no reason not to warn him about it. Why didn't he warn the Death Eaters that Order members will be arriving in the Ministry? I see no explanation.

Then he would have been loyal to Voldemort, not expertly maintaining his position in the middle by convincing each side he was theirs. Just about everything Snape has ever done can be explained in a way that shows him as 'loyal' to either side- these debates are excellent evidence of that.

I don't see that as evidence at all - the ambiguity is absolutely necessary, because Snape has to be kept obscure until the very end, obviously. Jo has hinted at it - she said we would learn a lot more about Snape in DH and his relationship with Harry would have a huge impact on what's going to happen next. So the ambiguity of his actions is necessary, because without it, we'd already have an answer to the question of this thread. He can still be proven "good", "bad" or self-serving in DH. Nothing is definite yet.

Also, it's not lack of information I see causing this neutrality, but lack of concern with anyone's fate but his own. I don't think he will willingly take a side until a clear winner is evident. I can see a great deal of his rage on the tower being at what he saw as Dumbledore's situation forcing him into a position where it will be very difficult for him to maintain that middle ground.

Really? I don't see it that way, and can't, really. The rage was prominent, and obviously significant, and it has to do with Snape's emotional state after the murder he just committed, I believe. Snape being self-serving practically excludes him from the main story and cancels the redemprive pattern that's been running throughout the whole series, as some of us believe.

And when he doesn't go to the graveyard, he does make a choice - a choice that could have claimed his life. He knows what Voldemort would think when he sees he's not there, he knows what he's risking, but he stays nonetheless. The safe thing to have done would have been to go to the graveyard and then come back and lie. [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron
In Harry's case Voldemort will relentlessly persue him. There is no other option for Harry. It is kill or be killed. In Harry's case it is self-defense in the face of an enemy. I would never suggest that DD would say to Harry "Don't defend yourself if someone is trying to kill you."


Dumbledore would have said to Harry that he didn't want him to KILL Voldemort if he didn't think it would be ethical or something. DD thinks Harry may have to kill him, although personally, I don't think the the AK curse is going to be used to do it.


I never said exactly what DD ethics on murder were. I am not of the DD is totally anti-murder camp. However I don't think that DD goes around randomly endorsing murders "for the right reasons". I believe that DD reserves killing/murder for a VERY narrow set of circumstances. What happened on that tower , to my mind, doesn't even come close to falling into that narrow category.

I dunno what to think... BUT if he was alive i still would think JK would confirm his death... Why would she ruin one of the biggest secrets ever.
Well, she hasn't lied about anything else about the series, I don't know why she'd start. She typically just avoids questions if the answers would give things away.

And as for why she'd ruin a surprise like that, it seems very likely to me that she didn't think of it as a surprise. I think she intended it to be clear in the book that Dumbledore was dead.

And I think she intended it to be clear in the book that Dumbledore was dead.


I agree. I think the murkiness of the death scene, to the extent that readers to varying degrees found it murky, is there to preserve the secret she decidedly is still keeping - the question of which side,m if any, Snape is on.

But by not coming to the graveyard instantly, he doesn't appear loyal to Voldemort, when it wasn't necessary for him to stay - he could have lied to Dubledore about it. The normal thing for a self-serving Snape to have done is to go to the graveyard instantly - first to secure his life and place on the DE list, and then return to being a Dumbeldore's trustee. But he waits, although he's risking his life by it.
A clever but evil Snape would have acted like he did. No need to jeopardise anything. He knew from PS that Voldemort didn’t trust him; he was one of those who never searched for him. Why go there at that earlier time if he could go later with a much better story and with much more information? A Snape who is loyal to Voldemort knew he had to bring the goods after failing to do anything for him during all those years. And that’s what he did. And we just don’t know if Snape could so easily go without Dumbledore noticing. Snape is well aware that a certain eye is keeping a very close look on him, an eye he believes at that time to be loyal to Dumbledore and an eye he fears. But as so often is the case a 100% loyal to Dumbledore man would also have acted like he did.

If we look at it from Snape’s perspective we have someone who wants that both Dumbledore and Voldemort trust him. This is true whatever side he is really on. Since his actions at the end of GOF achieve exactly this purpose it is hard to argue that his actions are a sign of loyalty to either Voldemort or Dumbledore.

This keeping this appearance of loyalty is perhaps the reason he didn’t warn Dumbledore immediately that Voldemort had returned. Snape felt the mark burn at the moment Harry is missing. Logically he would have gone to Dumbledore and tell him what is happening. Dumbledore, and even Snape, must have realised Harry’s involvement, there are only so many coincidences possible. But anyway Harry is the one who tells Dumbledore about Voldemort’s return even though Snape could have told him earlier. Plot hole or indeed a sign of Snape’s loyalties? I have no doubt if Dumbledore had known of the mark burning he would have side-along apparated with Snape to the graveyard. But a Snape whose loyalty is only to Dumbledore wouldn’t have waited with telling Dumbledore. And Kakaroff’s flight proves that the burning of the mark was a sign to the former deatheaters Snape and Kakaroff that Voldemort had returned. For some reason however he didn’t tell Dumbledore immediately… Perhaps he couldn’t find him, perhaps a sinister sign, or perhaps a mistake on JKR’s part when she let us know that harry is the one who alerted Dumbledore…

Let me just add my own view on Snape. The way I see it we have seen Snape acting to save Harry’s life (not his well being, just his life), do what Voldemort wants and acting for his own best interests. Within these three parameters I belief we can explain Snape quit well, he is just loyal to Voldemort and Harry… That’s why I like the life debt, foreshadowed and explaining Snape plus giving him scope to act for Harry in DH without making the end of HBP a complicated lie.

Let me just add my own view on Snape. The way I see it we have seen Snape acting to save Harry’s life (not his well being, just his life), do what Voldemort wants and acting for his own best interests. Within these three parameters I belief we can explain Snape quit well, he is just loyal to Voldemort and Harry… That’s why I like the life debt, foreshadowed and explaining Snape plus giving him scope to act for Harry in DH without making the end of HBP a complicated lie.


I particularly like this bit. We have discussed and repeated several lines of thought on this topic. But the one that you stated is the most consistent. Snape has taken on the role of the "Dark Hero." I find that to be inconsistent with his character. I do see him as as totally loyal to Harry's life, and that is where I think Snape's role with Harry will go. To believe that he was DD man all along (which we know he wasn't) smacks of romanticism to me.

i beg you, read dumbledore is not dead.com

putting whether he is actually dead or not aside, reread all of the things that snape tells harry as he is running away. he is INSTRUCTING him, like he has always done. he wants to help harry.

we all assumed the worst at first becuase it was so easy: jo cornered us in. the only reason most people even think that snape is bad in the first place is because he doesnt like harry. i mean dumbledore trusts him, doesn't that count for anything?

if it were mcgonagall, or trelawney whose goodness was in question, it wouldnt even be a question. the only reason we mistrust him is his personal issue with harry.

snape is good!!

I also believe that Snape is a good person. I agree that the only reason he is mistrusted is because of his problems with Harry and James. Harry dosen't want to think about all the good things that Snape has done, only the bad.

Rowling had it plotted so that Harry would escape the graveyard, so Rowling wouldn't very well go putting Snape in the graveyard if Harry was supposed to escape! He'd come running back telling the world Severus Snape was in the graveyard. Instead, Severus was with McGonagall and Dumbledore when Harry was nabbed by Fake Moody.

The only bit of GoF regarding Snape that is hard to explain has to do with Rowling's sense of time being really rather terrible. But this could just be that: her sense of time is bad, as opposed to the missing bit of time actually meaning something - where was Snape during the maze task? Was he sitting in the stands the whole time? Was he one of the patrolling teachers even though it doesn't clearly say he was on patrol around the perimeter? Between the time Voldemort was reborn and called for his DEs and the time Harry appeared with Cedric's body in front of everyone, what did Snape do? He should have felt his Dark Mark burn when he was called, and he should have known what it meant. So . . . what did he do? I can't remember what it said in the book and I don't have it, but I think that Rowling intended for us to believe that Snape was patrolling the maze like the other teachers. Therefore, Snape's lack of urgency regarding his Dark Mark could be explained away by the fact that he was way towards the end of the maze and by the time he got back to warn Dumbledore that he had been called, Harry had already returned. Furthermore, Snape would not have been able to Apparate to Dumbledore because of that rule about Apparition within the grounds.

There always seem to be inconsistencies with Snape regarding Rowling's use of time. OotP had the problem of how long did it take for Snape to alert the Order that Harry and company had flown off on thestrals? It would have taken forever on thestrals to go from Scotland down to London. So there would have been plenty of time for Snape to get to Lupin at 12 GP, which he did do. He contacted him and Lupin told Snape that Sirius was alive and upstairs. It was again, LUPIN'S mistake in telling Sirius that Harry was at the MoM and also allowing Sirius to go along! Not Snape. But again, there's this question of why did the Order take so long in getting to the MoM? Rowling making a mistake with time again? Possible. Also, why did Voldemort appear at the MoM? What caused that? Did he decide to go on his own or was it because someone alerted him to go the MoM?

HBP, however, with the exception of the tower scene, has more evidence suggesting Snape is good than it does that he is bad! Most people can read the evidence as though he's bad but in actuality, it looks far more like he's good! Also, Rowling never would have included that bit about Hagrid overhearing Snape arguing with Dumbledore that he "din wanna do't 'nymore" if it didn't mean anything! That tidbit from Hagrid was never fully explained but rather set to the backburner. Nobody took into consideration that Snape and Dumbledore were having private conversations (or arguments) about things Hagrid was confused over! There's that rule about Chekhov's plays - never put a gun in a scene if you don't intend to use it - it's been used on here lots. Point being, the Harry Potter books are a perfect example of not putting something into the story if it doesn't hold weight at all! And that scene about the argument holds weight, yet it has never been understood!

So yeah, those are my thoughts for now.

There is something that we have not really associated with Severus Snape; Nagini.

We all know by now that Nagini is probably a horcrux. We know this because Dumbledore said so explicitly. It is his suspicion that Nagini is a horcrux, and will be a difficult one to reach, because where one finds Nagini, so will one find Voldemort.

The question remains, how does Dumbledore know so much about Nagini to begin with?

We know that Harry told Dumbledore about Nagini's presence at the murder of poor Frank Bryce in Harry's vision, but he really didn't get into much detail. Dumbledore couldn't have known too much about her, other than she was a snake of some size, and Voldemort talks to her. But this is hardly evidence that she is a horcrux, because Voldemort's ability to speak Parseltongue is well known. It is also assumed that he would keep a snake as a pet. But a horcrux is a stretch.

So, therefore someone with more knowledge of the abilities and purpose of this snake would have to tell Dumbledore. That would be Severus Snape. He has been working as spy for the Order, and must have discussed this with Dumbledore. Something this important is not something that a Triple Agent would reveal to the likes of Dumbledore.

Yet somehow Dumbledore surmised that Nagini is a horcrux. How would he do that if all the information he had to go on was from a brief acknowledgement that a snake was in Voldemort's presence? He had to have received more descript information from someone who knows well about this particular snake. My only conclusion is that Severus Snape told him.

Ah, good point about Nagini and how Dumbledore may have learned about her. I agree that because Nagini is relatively new, Dumbledore knows a lot about her that wouldn't otherwise be apparent to everyone. Now unless the type of snake that she is makes it all apparent or because he's going on guesses or what, it does seem that Dumbledore would need inside information to tell him just how important Nagini is to Voldemort, and only Snape could really provide that.

Furthermore, this is something I have brought up time and time again: Snape is the one with the means of killing Nagini and therefore destroying the Horcrux within. Someone please tell me HOW Harry means to destroy Nagini! I mean, the pet which never leaves Voldemort's side unless on a mission (OOTP, but even then was possessed by Voldemort); the pet which would basically be the second hardest piece of Voldemort's soul to destroy, the first being Voldemort himself. For Rowling to introduce Nagini as a Horcrux suggests that somehow she will be killed, but prompts the suspense of HOW Harry will get close enough to kill her! Snape is in the prime position to remove Nagini from the equation when the time comes.

Picture it: the final battle waging, Snape is Voldemort's right-hand man and is moving through the battle on one side of Voldemort while Nagini slithers on his other side; Harry and Voldemort are about to meet; Voldemort and Harry being to tango while without notice, Snape kill Nagini as he and Harry have planned this; Voldemort notices and is struck because he is surprised that anyone would be onto the Horcrux idea; but no matter, he takes his surprise out on Snape; meanwhile, perhaps Harry has some secret weapon and employs it now that Voldemort is distracted by Snape's disloyalty; I don't mean to write the end but I can imagine a scenario, either during the final battle or before, in which Snape kills Nagini for Harry.

Furthermore, I think it is necessary that we take into account as many things as we can possibly think of which Snape has alerted the Order to. Any bits of information within OOTP and HBP which seem to say that Dumbledore knows stuff because of Snape.

Rowling had it plotted so that Harry would escape the graveyard, so Rowling wouldn't very well go putting Snape in the graveyard if Harry was supposed to escape! He'd come running back telling the world Severus Snape was in the graveyard. Instead, Severus was with McGonagall and Dumbledore when Harry was nabbed by Fake Moody.

This is not a valid explanation for Snape making the decision to to go instantly. If he is to be a believable character, his every action needs to be consistent with his character and motivations. So even if it was necessary, plotwise, for Snape not to go istantly, a Snape-centric reason is also absolutely necessary, and I'm sure Jo wrote it in a way that Snape missing would be also consistent with his own motivation not to be.

However, Harry already knew that Snape had been a Death Eater, and seeing Snape there would confuse him as long as he got to teling Dumbledore about it - "Snape was there! He's still on Voldemort's side, sir!" "Harry, please rest assured that I know more about Snape than you do." And then Dumbledore would have to have a talk with Snape, Snape would have to lie convincingly (which is what he's best at, after all) and that'll be it.

But I admit, he can't have gone there and kept it from Dumbledore, unless he modified Harry's memory. I was wrong about that.

So what about why he never informed the Death Eaters that he had sent the Order to the Ministry in OotP? It would have surely helped them a lot, especially if he did want to cause Sirius's death as he claimes in HBP. Because not infroming the Death Eaters that the Order was coming actually gave advantage to the Order, not the Death Eaters, and the death of Sirius was pure luck for them. It could have been anyone, it could have well been Bella. They had no warning - and they could have had, if Snape had given it to them. This is not waht a person plotting an ambush would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius
(the AK looked funny, Dumbledore bled at the bottom of the Tower, we never saw the body at the funeral, etc.)



The AK looked funny..so did expelliarmus when Harry attacked Snape in the shrieking shack. Did Harry mentally cast another spell instead of expelliarmus?
In the Shack, Snape was attacked by the Trio all casting Expelliarmus at the same time. On the Tower, it was only Snape, yet Dumbledore doesn't just keel over dead, but flies out over the Tower wall and hangs there in the air for a second. That's pretty weird.

HBP, however, with the exception of the tower scene, has more evidence suggesting Snape is good than it does that he is bad! Most people can read the evidence as though he's bad but in actuality, it looks far more like he's good! Also, Rowling never would have included that bit about Hagrid overhearing Snape arguing with Dumbledore that he "din wanna do't 'nymore" if it didn't mean anything! That tidbit from Hagrid was never fully explained but rather set to the backburner. Nobody took into consideration that Snape and Dumbledore were having private conversations (or arguments) about things Hagrid was confused over! There's that rule about Chekhov's plays - never put a gun in a scene if you don't intend to use it - it's been used on here lots. Point being, the Harry Potter books are a perfect example of not putting something into the story if it doesn't hold weight at all! And that scene about the argument holds weight, yet it has never been understood!
Great post, and great point, mwbashful! :)

I just found this quote form Jo:

Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape?

Jo: Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it.

Notice the wording - "Snape has given Dumbledore his story. Not told him a story, but given him his story - which, to me, does not imply lying, but giving him his genuine story. And Dumbledore believes it - which means that the story contains something powerful enough to earn Dumbledore's unconditional trust. I think that's food for thought.

The only bit of GoF regarding Snape that is hard to explain has to do with Rowling's sense of time being really rather terrible. But this could just be that: her sense of time is bad, as opposed to the missing bit of time actually meaning something - where was Snape during the maze task? Was he sitting in the stands the whole time? Was he one of the patrolling teachers even though it doesn't clearly say he was on patrol around the perimeter? Between the time Voldemort was reborn and called for his DEs and the time Harry appeared with Cedric's body in front of everyone, what did Snape do? He should have felt his Dark Mark burn when he was called, and he should have known what it meant. So . . . what did he do? I can't remember what it said in the book and I don't have it, but I think that Rowling intended for us to believe that Snape was patrolling the maze like the other teachers. Therefore, Snape's lack of urgency regarding his Dark Mark could be explained away by the fact that he was way towards the end of the maze and by the time he got back to warn Dumbledore that he had been called, Harry had already returned. Furthermore, Snape would not have been able to Apparate to Dumbledore because of that rule about Apparition within the grounds.Don't forget that there is the scene during the Potions class when Karkaroff comes to talk to Snape. Harry spills his potion on purpose so he can overhear their conversation. Karkaroff came to tell Snape that the Dark Mark was getting darker. Snape was well aware fo the fact. Now, did he tell Dumbledore about this? Or did he first mention the Dark Mark after the maze incident?

I just found this quote form Jo:

Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape?

Jo: Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it.


The situation is alas, not as simple as you suggest. The word "story" in English is one that has many different shades of meaning.


story
1 archaic a : HISTORY 1 b : HISTORY 3
2 a : an account of incidents or events b : a statement regarding the facts pertinent to a situation in question c : ANECDOTE; especially : an amusing one
3 a : a fictional narrative shorter than a novel; specifically : SHORT STORY b : the intrigue or plot of a narrative or dramatic work
4 : a widely circulated rumor
5 : LIE, FALSEHOOD
6 : LEGEND, ROMANCE
7 : a news article or broadcast
8 : MATTER, SITUATION


Note meaning #5 - she could have it in mind, rather than meaning #2.

I think he is good, but I don't think Rowling has come out and said so. ;)

Don't forget that there is the scene during the Potions class when Karkaroff comes to talk to Snape. Harry spills his potion on purpose so he can overhear their conversation. Karkaroff came to tell Snape that the Dark Mark was getting darker. Snape was well aware fo the fact. Now, did he tell Dumbledore about this? Or did he first mention the Dark Mark after the maze incident?

He did tell Dumbledore about this, at some point before Harry uses his Pensieve. Dumbledore examines his own memory of that conversation in front of Harry in that scene.


Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold.... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly.

"It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever..."

"A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind."

He did tell Dumbledore about this, at some point before Harry uses his Pensieve. Dumbledore examines his own memory of that conversation in front of Harry in that scene.


Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold.... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly.

"It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever..."

"A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind."
Thanks for finding that quote. I couldn't remember how that part of the story went. That supports my theory :lol:

Notice the wording - "Snape has given Dumbledore his story. Not told him a story, but given him his story - which, to me, does not imply lying, but giving him his genuine story. And Dumbledore believes it - which means that the story contains something powerful enough to earn Dumbledore's unconditional trust. I think that's food for thought.

However, that doesn't rule out the possibility that Dumbledore's belief was in vain and his trust betrayed. It could go either way.

The situation is alas, not as simple as you suggest. The word "story" in English is one that has many different shades of meaning.


story
1 archaic a : HISTORY 1 b : HISTORY 3
2 a : an account of incidents or events b : a statement regarding the facts pertinent to a situation in question c : ANECDOTE; especially : an amusing one
3 a : a fictional narrative shorter than a novel; specifically : SHORT STORY b : the intrigue or plot of a narrative or dramatic work
4 : a widely circulated rumor
5 : LIE, FALSEHOOD
6 : LEGEND, ROMANCE
7 : a news article or broadcast
8 : MATTER, SITUATION


Note meaning #5 - she could have it in mind, rather than meaning #2.

I think he is good, but I don't think Rowling has come out and said so. ;)

Oh... Too bad then. I was excited :)

I have no doubt if Dumbledore had known of the mark burning he would have side-along apparated with Snape to the graveyard.

We don't know how the Dark Mark works. It is apparently a bit of magic invented or adapted by Voldemort, which might well have security features. I would guess, for a start, that Death Eaters are not consciously aware of the location to which they are summoned either in advance of the summons, or even once they are summoned. This would be too much trust to place in his Death Eaters, in my opinion. It would only take one turning on him to bring a team of Aurors or Order members to the next meeting.

Likewise, we don't know that they can bring others along - perhaps the Mark acts as a homing beacon, only for persons that actually bear it. It would explain why Draco probably has the Mark - it is not so much a mark of honor and distinction, as a way for Voldemort to control who has access to him and ensure his servants can receive his orders when he wants.

So any guesses about what Snape did and why depend also on guesses as to what his options were, under the unknown rules of the Potterverse. Rather as in discussions of the Unbreakable Vow. Under a different set of guesses about the nature and function of the Mark, Snape's choices may have been to appear alone as soon as he could get himself off the school grounds on foot, or go tell Dumbledore first.

And if he cannot bring Dumbledore, then Snape could, for all we know, have sprinted to Dumbledore directly when he was summoned. And Dumbledore would have been forced to wait, because Snape could not bring him along, any more than he could later reveal the secret of 12 Grimmauld Place to Voldemort.

Thanks for finding that quote. I couldn't remember how that part of the story went. That supports my theory :lol:

You're welcome. It is, of course, entirely consistent with my Good Snape views as well that Snape would warn Dumbledore of this development.

Oh... Too bad then. I was excited :)

Sorry. :sad:
Just goes to show, Rowling is sneaky enough to outwit her millions of fans indefinitely. :D

You're welcome. It is, of course, entirely consistent with my Good Snape views as well that Snape would warn Dumbledore of this development.This is exactly why I think so many people will have at least some of their "guesses" right :lol:

But by not coming to the graveyard instantly, he doesn't appear loyal to Voldemort, when it wasn't necessary for him to stay - he could have lied to Dubledore about it. The normal thing for a self-serving Snape to have done is to go to the graveyard instantly - first to secure his life and place on the DE list, and then return to being a Dumbeldore's trustee. But he waits, although he's risking his life by it.

Think about this though...Snape and Dumbledore would have realized that it would apprear more convincing for Snape to have appeared at the graveyard with the rest. The two of them could have agreed that this is what Snape would do if Voldemort did indeed return (which they were suspecting given the darkening of the mark on Snape's arm). Why didn't they then? Because Snape is really good, that's why. If he had been present, he knew he may have to witness something he would have difficulty intervening in. So if he had been there when Harry was tied up and tortured, Snape would have had to do something and would have compromised himself to Voldemort.

I'm still waiting for someone to say something about Snape not informing Voldemort and the Death Eaters that he had sent the Order to the Ministry... Why idn't he tell them bout their enemy coming?

I'm still waiting for someone to say something about Snape not informing Voldemort and the Death Eaters that he had sent the Order to the Ministry... Why idn't he tell them bout their enemy coming?Snape has consistently acted in a way that protects Harry. Once he knew that Harry was heading into a trap, he needed to act. Dumbledore would have been expecting Snape to watch Harry in his abscence. He needed to warn the Order to protect his position with Dumbledore and his role regarding Harry.

If there was an intentional delay on his part before warning the Order, it would have been in order to explain his actions to Voldemort. Sending the Order so quickly that the Deth Eaters did not have a chance to get the prophecy would have caused Voldemort to kill Snape for ruining his plan. Not sending the Order at all would have made Dumbledore and the other Order members doubt Snape's loyalty. By waiting until the Death Eaters had their chance to be successful, he played it right down the middle, as he always did.

(funny - I think I just repeated what Snape told Bella in Spinners End :lol:)

In the Shack, Snape was attacked by the Trio all casting Expelliarmus at the same time. On the Tower, it was only Snape, yet Dumbledore doesn't just keel over dead, but flies out over the Tower wall and hangs there in the air for a second. That's pretty weird.
Yes, it was definitely weird, but perhaps it's normal for an adult wizard to have more power behind his spells than a group of schoolchildren?Notice the wording - "Snape has given Dumbledore his story. Not told him a story, but given him his story - which, to me, does not imply lying, but giving him his genuine story. And Dumbledore believes it - which means that the story contains something powerful enough to earn Dumbledore's unconditional trust. I think that's food for thought.

That reminds me of the saying, "if that's your story, you stick to it!"

Snape has consistently acted in a way that protects Harry. Once he knew that Harry was heading into a trap, he needed to act. Dumbledore would have been expecting Snape to watch Harry in his abscence. He needed to warn the Order to protect his position with Dumbledore and his role regarding Harry.

If there was an intentional delay on his part before warning the Order, it would have been in order to explain his actions to Voldemort. Sending the Order so quickly that the Deth Eaters did not have a chance to get the prophecy would have caused Voldemort to kill Snape for ruining his plan. Not sending the Order at all would have made Dumbledore and the other Order members doubt Snape's loyalty. By waiting until the Death Eaters had their chance to be successful, he played it right down the middle, as he always did.

(funny - I think I just repeated what Snape told Bella in Spinners End :lol:)

My question actually was, even if we suppose that he had no choice but to send the Order, why didn't he warn Voldemort or the Death Eaters that he had done so?

(funny - I think I just repeated what Snape told Bella in Spinners End :lol:)

Snape does not discuss sending the Order to the Ministry at all in Spinner's End, let alone discuss the timing of it.

From what I can remember, Bella asked Snape why he wasn't at the Ministry of Magic that night. He replied caustically that the Death Eaters should have been able to handle teenagers. He also said that it would have blown his cover if he was there. I believe he also indicated that whatever he did was okay with Voldemort. What she didn't ask him was whether or not he was the one who sent the Order to the Ministry. So she either assumed that he did warn the Order, or she assumed some sort of warning system at the Ministry kicked on to send the Order there.

My question actually was, even if we suppose that he had no choice but to send the Order, why didn't he warn Voldemort or the Death Eaters that he had done so?Because he was protecting Harry.

Snape does not discuss sending the Order to the Ministry at all in Spinner's End, let alone discuss the timing of it
He does gloat about causing Sirius's death, though, which is clearly connected with that. In claiming partial credit for Sirius's death, he is practically admitting he sent the Order to the Ministry!

He does gloat about causing Sirius's death, though, which is clearly connected with that. In claiming partial credit for Sirius's death, he is practically admitting he sent the Order to the Ministry!That is what I was just thinking. He did seem to be admitting he sent the Order there and that he helped to get rid of Sirius by doing so. He gave Bellatrix credit for doing the actual killing.

He does gloat about causing Sirius's death, though, which is clearly connected with that. In claiming partial credit for Sirius's death, he is practically admitting he sent the Order to the Ministry!

He claimed his responsibility lay in the area of providing informsaton that led to the death. I fihure this means telling Voldemort stuff about Harry;s relationship with Sirius, not sending the Order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel
He does gloat about causing Sirius's death, though, which is clearly connected with that. In claiming partial credit for Sirius's death, he is practically admitting he sent the Order to the Ministry!

That is what I was just thinking. He did seem to be admitting he sent the Order there and that he helped to get rid of Sirius by doing so. He gave Bellatrix credit for doing the actual killing.
I don't think Snape "admitted" that he sent the Order. Snape said he "gave infomation directly to Voldemort and then he asked Bella if she knew what it was. Then later he repeats that he "gave information":

"The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I passed him on the Order."

He tells Bella it "certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black." I think that is a complete bluff, since Snape told Sirius to stay behind and everyone from Hagrid to Dumbledore confirms that Sirius refused to stay home and wait for Dumbledore.

The whole Order understands what happened, so clearly Snape did not help to kill him. Lupin never says anything like that to Harry, and Lupin was there at the DoM, and he was at Grimmauld Place when they got Snape's message. So either Lupin is "covering up" for Snape (yeah, sure) with Harry, or Snape is lying to Bellatrix.

Kreacher is the one who laughed about the "information" he passed to Narcissa - not to Snape.

But Snape is counting on Bellatrix being out of the information loop, and clearly she is. What helps him is that Narcissa is silent through all that because she is upset and wants Snape to help her, so she never mentions Kreacher. She admits that she doesn't know anything more than Bellatrix, too, which is also helpful.

When Snape does a toast to Bella, she is right to say that he is "avoiding the last question." She's an Occlumens and she can tell he's lying, but not what he's lying about.

The toast is to flatter her and throw her off, and it works, because she doesn't ask him about his "information" again - she starts asking about Harry and Hogwarts.

He tells Bella it "certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black." I think that is a complete bluff, since Snape told Sirius to stay behind and everyone from Hagrid to Dumbledore confirms that Sirius refused to stay home and wait for Dumbledore.

I don't think there is any doubt that when Snape told Sirius to stay behind, he did so in a manner which made Sirius even more determined to join the fray. After all, we know very well that Snape taunted Sirius mercilessly about staying in the house - before Harry arrived and later in front of Harry in the Christmas holidays (and probably on many other occasions). Yes, of course Snape wanted Bellatrix to believe that, but I don't think it's far from the truth. Although Sirius was an adult and responsible for his own decisions, and despite the fact that Sirius died as he would wish to die, fighting to save his godson, despite the fact that had Sirius not gone to the Ministry and joined what appeared to be a very evenly matched fight someone else would probably have died, perhaps several people, it's still a fact that Snape taunted Sirius, and is therefore justified in claiming some of the "credit" for getting him into the Ministry on that fateful night.

I don't think there is any doubt that when Snape told Sirius to stay behind, he did so in a manner which made Sirius even more determined to join the fray. After all, we know very well that Snape taunted Sirius mercilessly about staying in the house - before Harry arrived and later in front of Harry in the Christmas holidays (and probably on many other occasions).

While Snape may have taunted Sirius earlier in the book, I don't believe that is the reason why Sirius left to go join the battle. Sirius was very angry from the start about Dumbledore telling him to stay at Grimmauld Place and later one of the twins even makes a comment about Sirius not really doing anything to risk his life, I am sure that bothered him too.

And if he cannot bring Dumbledore, then Snape could, for all we know, have sprinted to Dumbledore directly when he was summoned. And Dumbledore would have been forced to wait, because Snape could not bring him along, any more than he could later reveal the secret of 12 Grimmauld Place to Voldemort.But he didn’t sprint to Dumbledore. Harry informed Dumbledore of Voldemort’s return, not Snape, because that’s what we were told (OOTP). And we know from Kakaroff that former deatheaters did realise that Voldemort had returned. But for some reason Snape didn’t inform Dumbledore immediately… Could be a little plot hole though, or another indication that Snape was playing his own game right there. Would he have told Dumbledore that Voldemort did return if Harry hadn’t returned from the graveyard?
My question actually was, even if we suppose that he had no choice but to send the Order, why didn't he warn Voldemort or the Death Eaters that he had done so?
Didn’t he warn Voldemort? I don’t think we have any canon on that. Voldemort somehow did turn up at the ministry in the atrium; we have no idea where he was or why he turned up at that particular time. He heard the conversation between Bella and Harry though because he confirms to Bella that Harry was not lying. Could be the scar of course but I don’t think we know for sure what moved Voldemort to arrive.
Anyway one would expect a good Snape to warn Voldemort that the order is there (after of course waiting long enough to give Dumbledore a chance to come as well) just to keep his cover. Same as Voldemort’s Snape would do actually, without the waiting part.

Just the usual Snape actions in OOTP. Trying to prove Snape’s loyalties from OOTP is always a bit difficult since we do have a chapter called Spinner’s end, the end of spinning. This name alone could indicate that here, at spinner’s end, we see the end of Snape’s spinning ways; he made his definitive choice there. This title could also refer to something else of course, but still the possibility is there.

In the end we still have Snape’s dual perspective: saving Harry’s life and doing Voldemort’s bidding. (I have to say though that that perspective is more clear in HBP). That’s enough reason to warn the order when he realises Harry is gone but be rather passive before that moment. On occasion this leads to some trouble for the man, and I think we will see more trouble for him in DH.
He claimed his responsibility lay in the area of providing informsaton that led to the death. I fihure this means telling Voldemort stuff about Harry;s relationship with Sirius, not sending the Order.According to Dumbledore this was the kind of information which Kreacher gave to Voldemort. Snape must have given other information which could be related to the death of Sirius. He was in no need to make a claim which could be checked with Voldemort, so there must be something.
While Snape may have taunted Sirius earlier in the book, I don't believe that is the reason why Sirius left to go join the battle. Sirius was very angry from the start about Dumbledore telling him to stay at Grimmauld Place and later one of the twins even makes a comment about Sirius not really doing anything to risk his life, I am sure that bothered him too.Even though I agree with the reason Sirius went, to protect Harry, Snape can most certainly claim credit for sending Sirius there, he might even believe himself that all his taunting worked to get Snape there. But this last part isn’t necessary, what is important is that Snape can make a claim to Voldemort that he had taunted and goaded Sirius out of the house, and that helped to dispose of Sirius.
Snape can make more claims like this. The fact that Harry didn’t learn occlumency is another one where Snape can claim credit for. And because Harry didn’t learn occlumency Voldemort’s plan was possible. I am well aware that a lot of good Snapers lay the blame for Harry not learning occlumency not even partial by Snape (wrongly in my opinion) but the point is that Snape can claim credit.

Snape also says that he stayed behind on Voldemort’s orders. That indicates foreknowledge of the plan, something he apparently didn’t share with Dumbledore. And was Voldemort just lucky that he sent his vision on the very first day that the last order member. McGonagall, had left Hogwarts or is something else going on?
That’s rather like the Emmeline Vance thing, condemning for a Snape loyal to Dumbledore.

There is just too much doubt on Snape’s actions, even before HBP, to conclude that he always acts for Dumbledore’s best interests. I am seeing a man who wants Harry to live and to further Voldemort’s plans.

But he didn’t sprint to Dumbledore. Harry informed Dumbledore of Voldemort’s return, not Snape, because that’s what we were told (OOTP).


Citation, please? Many people on this forum don't distinguish between character opinions and facts of the story, I would like to judge for myself which this is.

And we know from Kakaroff that former deatheaters did realise that Voldemort had returned. But for some reason Snape didn’t inform Dumbledore immediately…

I already posted the GoF scene that shows Snape reported this to Dumbledore today.

According to Dumbledore this was the kind of information which Kreacher gave to Voldemort. Snape must have given other information which could be related to the death of Sirius. He was in no need to make a claim which could be checked with Voldemort, so there must be something.

Yes, but perhaps he really did provide some of the same information Kreacher provided. (It is also information Peter had). His claim would then hold up even if checked.

Snape also says that he stayed behind on Voldemort’s orders. That indicates foreknowledge of the plan, something he apparently didn’t share with Dumbledore.

No, it does not. His statement is vaguely worded and does not mention the specifics of his orders.

And was Voldemort just lucky that he sent his vision on the very first day that the last order member. McGonagall, had left Hogwarts or is something else going on?
That’s rather like the Emmeline Vance thing, condemning for a Snape loyal to Dumbledore.

I am seeing a man who wants Harry to live and to further Voldemort’s plans.

Those positions are mutually contradictory, as Snape must know himself, having heard the Prophecy.

Harry informed Dumbledore of Voldemort’s return, not Snape, because that’s what we were told (OOTP). And we know from Kakaroff that former deatheaters did realise that Voldemort had returned. But for some reason Snape didn’t inform Dumbledore immediately… Could be a little plot hole though, or another indication that Snape was playing his own game right there. Would he have told Dumbledore that Voldemort did return if Harry hadn’t returned from the graveyard?
Don't you think Dumbledore would have noticed if Harry had gone missing? And don't you think Dumbledore would have checked Snape's scar to see what it looked like?

Harry does tell Fudge about Voldemort in GoF, as does Dumbledore, as does McGonagall, as does Snape. They all tell him, but Dumbledore and Harry talk about it at the school in OotP, while Snape cannot because of Umbridge, who is all about firing teachers.

Snape is "shown" telling Dumbledore about the Dark Mark in GoF, "The Pensieve."

This is a case of a mixed up timeline. Here are the facts:

1) In GoF, Harry sees Dumbledore's "memory" of Snape telling him about his Dark Mark and Karkaroff's "coming back":



Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold.... and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly.

"It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever..."

"A connection I could have made without assistance," Dumbledore sighed, "but never mind." He peered over the top of his half-moon spectacles at Harry, who was gaping at Snape's face, which was continuing to swirl around the bowl.


2)Dumbledore tells Harry he still trusts Snape, and not to ask him why:



"What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?"

Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds, and then said, "That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself."

Harry knew that the interview was over; Dumbledore did not look angry, yet there was a finality in his tone that told Harry it was time to go. He stood up, and so did Dumbledore.


3)After Harry returns from the Graveyard: Snape appears in Barty Jr's Foe Glass "3" times when he, Dumbledore and McGonagall break in to rescue Harry from Fake Moody.

4)Snape is still there later that night after Fudge brings a Dementor in to suck out Fake Moody's soul. He has never been gone from the castle to return to Voldemort. He's been with McGonagall and Fudge.

5)Snape shows Fudge, the Minister of Magic, his Dark Mark and explains exactly how it worked, and more importantly, that it had burned "black" that very night:



It seemed Fudge could think of no answer to this. He rocked backward and forward on his small feet for a moment and spun his bowler hat in his hands. Finally, he said, with a hint of a plea in his voice, "He can't be back, Dumbledore, he just can't be ..."

Snape strode forward, past Dumbledore, pulling up the left sleeve of his robes as he went. He stuck out his forearm and showed it to Fudge, who recoiled.

"There," said Snape harshly. "There. The Dark Mark. It is not as clear as it was an hour or so ago, when it burned black, but you can still see it. Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him. When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side. This Mark has been growing clearer all year. Karkaroff's too. Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight? We both felt the Mark burn. We both knew he had returned. Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengeance. He betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the fold."

Fudge stepped back from Snape too. He was shaking his head. He did not seem to have taken in a word Snape had said. He stared, apparently repelled by the ugly mark on Snape's arm, then looked up at Dumbledore and whispered, "I don't know what you and your staff are playing at, Dumbledore, but I have heard enough. I have no more to add. I will be in touch with you tomorrow, Dumbledore, to discuss the running of this school. I must return to the Ministry."



6) Dumbledore sends Snape back hours after he was first called to the Graveyard, and Dumbledore is very concerned about him:



"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready . . . if you are prepared ..."

"I am," said Snape.

He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.

"Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.

It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again.



7) The very fact that Snape walks out after Sirius is a clue that he isn't out for revenge on Sirius. If he was, he could have followed Sirius easily, since no one can apparate or disapparate out of the castle, and Snape could have finished him that night, before returning to Voldemort. But nothing happened to Sirius, that night or any other night, until Bella killed him at the DoM.

And that's the timeline.

The entire Ministry scene could be seen as Snape once again carefully manipulating events so that each side has equal benefit from his actions so that in retrospect, he appears to have been loyal to whichever side won.

In the end we still have Snape’s dual perspective: saving Harry’s life and doing Voldemort’s bidding. (I have to say though that that perspective is more clear in HBP).

And consider this- what if Snape is only protecting Harry for his own purposes later on?

It could also be taken as Snape gave Dumbledore his story, meaning Snape gave Dumbledore a story he made up, and Dumbledore believed him.

Personally, I think Snape was genuine with Dumbledore back in the first war with Voldemort, but that was just another way one could take the statement.

However, when Snape kills Dumbledore, I wonder if he was forced on the Death Eater's side by the unbreakable vow. So, he's on the Death Eater's side now, but that doesn't mean he won't come back to the Order's side.

Snape was very vague with his remarks to Bellatrix and Narcissa. It's like he's fishing for information, but doesn't want them to know that he doesn't know everything. He refers to "the plan" but waits for Narcissa to mention any details. I honestly don't think he expected to have his hand forced. His perch on the fence seemed quite comfortable I'm sure. He could jump to the winning side at the opportune moment, but when the Vow is sprung on him, he's forced to choose. Deny the Vow and the Death Eater's will seriously question his loyalty. Accept it, and he's betrayed the Order. Since his hand was forced, I don't think his heart is truely in the Death Eater's cause, and I could see him repenting. I'm curious as to how it could happen storywise. Harry's (and the rest of the Order's) trust in Snape was shaky at best. They never trusted him, only Dumbledore's opinion. Without Dumbledore there, he'll have to do something huge and self sacrificing to regain their trust.

It could also be taken as Snape gave Dumbledore his story, meaning Snape gave Dumbledore a story he made up, and Dumbledore believed him.

Personally, I think Snape was genuine with Dumbledore back in the first war with Voldemort, but that was just another way one could take the statement.

However, when Snape kills Dumbledore, I wonder if he was forced on the Death Eater's side by the unbreakable vow. So, he's on the Death Eater's side now, but that doesn't mean he won't come back to the Order's side.

Snape was very vague with his remarks to Bellatrix and Narcissa. It's like he's fishing for information, but doesn't want them to know that he doesn't know everything. He refers to "the plan" but waits for Narcissa to mention any details. I honestly don't think he expected to have his hand forced. His perch on the fence seemed quite comfortable I'm sure. He could jump to the winning side at the opportune moment, but when the Vow is sprung on him, he's forced to choose. Deny the Vow and the Death Eater's will seriously question his loyalty. Accept it, and he's betrayed the Order. Since his hand was forced, I don't think his heart is truely in the Death Eater's cause, and I could see him repenting. I'm curious as to how it could happen storywise. Harry's (and the rest of the Order's) trust in Snape was shaky at best. They never trusted him, only Dumbledore's opinion. Without Dumbledore there, he'll have to do something huge and self sacrificing to regain their trust.

Thank you for bringing this point up again. The dialogue in Spinner's End is perhaps the most interesting and complex storytelling of all of HBP. Snape is clearly, as you put it, perched on a fence here and keeping distance between himself and his actions by giving crafty, "covers-all" explanations to accusations that he is not loyal to the Dark Lord. He escapes easily because he has an answer for everything with no means for Bella to prove it wrong. It is true that Snape was forced into choosing a side at a time when he was still trying to get facts. He played Bella and Narcissa well, seeking information while remaining "knowledegable" of the situation, even though Snape realized at that point that he was not in the loop about Draco. He wanted to push Narcissa for info, and I think his instance of going to the window, pausing, then turning around, was actually Snape having looked into her thoughts in her weakened state. He saw something and wanted to get more info.

I think that could really explain a lot if we want to go with the idea that Snape was accidentally forced into the Vow and that he and Dumbledore cooked up some scheme that Snape would kill Dumbledore should it come down to it. The fact that Snape was not let in on the plan for Draco to kill Dumbledore was perhaps his fear of not being fully trusted. This could have been the reason behind wanting to stage his death so that Snape could look like a true Death Eater.

I dunno. Killing Dumbledore is contrary to so much that has been laid before us. While I doubt Snape's ability to kill Dumbledore, the fact remains that he is officially dead. So I have to wonder how Snape can remain on the good side having done what he did. I think the only way for that to happen is for Dumbledore to hand over through some means the proof that he wanted it to happen. That he ordered it or planned it and that it took great pains to convince Snape to do it.

I dunno. Killing Dumbledore is contrary to so much that has been laid before us. While I doubt Snape's ability to kill Dumbledore, the fact remains that he is officially dead. So I have to wonder how Snape can remain on the good side having done what he did. I think the only way for that to happen is for Dumbledore to hand over through some means the proof that he wanted it to happen. That he ordered it or planned it and that it took great pains to convince Snape to do it.You have pointed out the same problem that Salman Rushdie did last August. As long as Dumbledore wasn't really dead, Snape could be the nastiest guy, but still be considered good. Once she confirmed that Dumbledore was really dead, now you have a problem. Our society doesn't condone murder. A murderer is bad. So the only way to make a good Snape out of a dead Dumbledore is to call it something besides murder.

Some of the popular theories are:
- sacrifice - Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him for the "greater good"-many versions
- mercy killing - Dumbledore was dying anyway
- the potion killed Dumbledore, not Snape - the AK was a trick

But there are problems with these three excuses.
- Sacrifice usually has the person doing the killing as the bad guy. Think of all the martyrs throughout history. The person doing the killing was bad. Plus, in this story, it is hard to see the benefit of Dumbledore's death.
- Mercy killing - usually done as a last resort after every other avenue has been pursued, and it is a really, really controversial topic (think what happened with Terry Schiavo).
- AK was a trick and all other versions, such as the fall killed him, etc - kind of a cop out since everyone saw an AK curse and Snape did not act to save Dumbledore

The story is best served in my opinion by having Snape redeem himself by an act of bravery, rather than an excuse.

The story is best served in my opinion by having Snape redeem himself by an act of bravery, rather than an excuse.

:clap:

Exactly, no explanations, just redemptive actions, please.

Citation, please? Many people on this forum don't distinguish between character opinions and facts of the story, I would like to judge for myself which this is.There are two moments which come to mind:
"See here, Dumbledore," said Fudge, and Harry was astonished to see a slight smile dawning on his face, "you - you can't seriously believe that You-Know-Who - back? Come now, come now . . . certainly, Crouch may have believed himself to be acting upon You-Know-Who's orders - but to take the word of a lunatic like that, Dumbledore ..."
"When Harry touched the Triwizard Cup tonight, he was transported straight to Voldemort," said Dumbledore steadily. "He witnessed Lord Voldemort's rebirth. I will explain it all to you if you will step up to my office."
Dumbledore glanced around at Harry and saw that he was awake, but shook his head and said, "I am afraid I cannot permit you to question Harry tonight."
Fudge's curious smile lingered. He too glanced at Harry, then looked back at Dumbledore, and said, "You are - er - prepared to take Harry's word on this, are you, Dumbledore?"
There was a moment's silence, which was broken by Sirius growling. His hackles were raised, and he was baring his teeth at Fudge.
"Certainly, I believe Harry," said Dumbledore. His eyes were blazing now. "I heard Crouch's confession, and I heard Harry's account of what happened after he touched the Triwizard Cup; the two stories make sense, they explain everything that has happened since Bertha Jorkins disappeared last summer."
Here we have Dumbledore trying to convince Fudge that Voldemort did return. He mentions his evidence and Snape’s mark isn’t among the evidence he mentions. Interesting Snape himself has no problem mentioning this at a later stage in the conversation. Why didn’t Dumbledore mention this if he was warned by Snape, given that Snape himself saw no problem mentioning this?

The next one is Lupin in OOTP:
'Because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself,' said Sirius. 'It would be dangerous for him. His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, you see. He messed it up.'
'Or rather, you messed it tip for him,' said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.'These quotes are rather clear that when Harry left Hogwarts and Voldemort called his deatheaters, signalling his return, Snape didn’t tell Dumbledore at that time, Harry was the one who alerted Dumbledore. He had given indications before (after Harry overheard Kakaroff’s and Snape’s conversation) and he did tell and show Fudge later, but not at that time. Couldn’t he, wouldn’t he, or just a plot hole?
No, it does not. His statement is vaguely worded and does not mention the specifics of his orders.
Let’s see:
No, you were once again absent while the rest of us ran dangers, were you not, Snape?
My orders were to remain behind, said Snape. Perhaps you disagree with the Dark Lord, perhaps you think that Dumbledore would not have noticed if I had joined forces with the deatheaters to fight the Order of the Phoenix?

It does not seem vague to me.

Interesting though that according to Snape Voldemort thinks that Snape joining the deatheaters to fight the order is a little bit conspicuous, something he must not do because it would give the game away. Snape of course did exactly that at the end of HBP. Whatever reason Snape had for doing that it was not needed to convince Voldemort of his loyalties…
Those positions are mutually contradictory, as Snape must know himself, having heard the Prophecy.
Tough for Snape, I agree. Impossible to keep up in the long run as Dumbledore undoubtedly must have realised. But did Snape, torn between his wishes and his debt?

On a side note I wonder if Snape really thinks that the prophesy still plays a part. Maybe he thinks that the prophecy is already fulfilled, Harry has after all vanquished Voldemort many years ago as Dumbledore notes.
Don't you think Dumbledore would have noticed if Harry had gone missing? And don't you think Dumbledore would have checked Snape's scar to see what it looked like?
The strange thing here is that he didn’t according to the canon we have on the subject. It really makes me wonder if there is a little plot hole here. It just doesn’t make sense for JKR to purposely mislead us on this point for no purpose whatsoever.
And consider this- what if Snape is only protecting Harry for his own purposes later on?
Could be. I just think that it is connected to the debt, to magic at its deepest, which sounds much more complicated as just repaying a life. I tend to think that the subject of debts is rather important in DH and has a wider range of consequences as a simple saving life thing. But JKR could also have Snape saving Harry for his own purposes…

The story is best served in my opinion by having Snape redeem himself by an act of bravery, rather than an excuse.Yes, I tend to agree with that. If JKR builds her story on where she has left it she can still make some surprising moves with Snape while the story moves onwards.

Such a storyline fits very well with what we are shown and doesn’t need a revisiting of everything that HBP shows. No need for lengthy explanations that Snape did tell Dumbledore of the vow though Dumbledore indicated that he didn’t, no need for potions to suddenly become deadly even though we were told it wouldn’t kill, no need for rings that kill if Dumbledore said it didn’t kill him, no need for rushed vows as a reason to die, no need for the only one Voldemort ever feared to willingly die so that Voldemort could release his regime of terror for real on the wizard world. Just everything as it has been written but with twists to come regarding Snape’s true loyalty. On the surface we were left with a Snape loyal to Voldemort only. Just the removal of the word “only” gives us scope for a great book which gives us more additional depth to Snape without taking away what we do know and it gives a great chance of a real redemption if JKR chooses to go that way.

No need to make JKR’s statement that she removed all of Harry’s protectors to become a lie with Snape acting as Harry’s hidden protector.

Just a consistent storyline with twists to come and clues being true.

"Certainly, I believe Harry," said Dumbledore. His eyes were blazing now. "I heard Crouch's confession, and I heard Harry's account of what happened after he touched the Triwizard Cup; the two stories make sense, they explain everything that has happened since Bertha Jorkins disappeared last summer."
Here we have Dumbledore trying to convince Fudge that Voldemort did return. He mentions his evidence and Snape’s mark isn’t among the evidence he mentions. Interesting Snape himself has no problem mentioning this at a later stage in the conversation. Why didn’t Dumbledore mention this if he was warned by Snape, given that Snape himself saw no problem mentioning this?
You are taking a passage from one book and ignoring what happened in GoF. If Fudge can't remember what Snape told him, that isn't Dumbledore's fault. :rolleyes: Go back to all those quotes in my last post - are you saying that Snape didn't show Fudge the Dark Mark? Are you saying that both Harry and Dumbledore did not see Snape in the Pensieve saying that his Dark Mark and Karkaroff's were returning? Those things happened in GoF.

In OOtP, Dumbledore didn't want to draw attention to Snape while Umbridge was teaching at Hogwarts! Then he would have to explain to Umbridge that Snape was an ex-Death Eater. Fudge is in denial that the followers of Voldemort had a mark of any kind. Just like Sirius, he doesn't understand the use of the Dark Mark, and dismisses it as untrue, while the Ministry is making Dumbledore and Harry out to be deranged for believing Voldemort was back.

Umbridge says she knew Snape was friends with Malfoy also, which was a way for Snape to screen himself from suspician. So why would either Snape or Dumbledore bring up the Dark Mark again?


'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.'These quotes are rather clear that when Harry left Hogwarts and Voldemort called his deatheaters, signalling his return, Snape didn’t tell Dumbledore at that time, Harry was the one who alerted Dumbledore.
That's because Snape didn't see the "return" of Voldemort from the Cauldron. He wasn't in the Graveyard, but Harry was.

I really don't understand what you mean - Snape's Dark Mark was returning and he told Dumbledore he thought it meant something. After Harry returns, Snape tells Fudge about it, too.

Snape can't tell Dumbledore something he didn't see. :huh: Snape wasn't in the graveyard with Harry, so how can he tell Dumbledore a report about it? How is that holding back anything?


He had given indications before (after Harry overheard Kakaroff’s and Snape’s conversation) and he did tell and show Fudge later, but not at that time. Couldn’t he, wouldn’t he, or just a plot hole?
He couldn't, staniw. He couldn't tell Dumbledore about Voldemort's return when he had not witnessed it. Harry told Dumbledore because he was there, but Snape was not there in the graveyard - he was at Hogwarts.

Snape is at Hogwarts and Harry was in the Graveyard with Voldemort - those are two different places, so why is that a plot hole?

There are two moments which come to mind:
"See here, Dumbledore," said Fudge, and Harry was astonished to see a slight smile dawning on his face, "you - you can't seriously believe that You-Know-Who - back? Come now, come now . . . certainly, Crouch may have believed himself to be acting upon You-Know-Who's orders - but to take the word of a lunatic like that, Dumbledore ..."
"When Harry touched the Triwizard Cup tonight, he was transported straight to Voldemort," said Dumbledore steadily. "He witnessed Lord Voldemort's rebirth. I will explain it all to you if you will step up to my office."

Dumbledore is presenting the strongest argument for his side - an eyewitness account of Voldemort's return, which even though said eyewitness is 14, is very credible because he really did disappear from the maze, and he really did bring back a dead body that needs explaining. He is not saying these are his only reasons for believing it - we know he has others, including what Snape previously told him about Snape and Karkaroff's Dark Marks.

"Certainly, I believe Harry," said Dumbledore. His eyes were blazing now. "I heard Crouch's confession, and I heard Harry's account of what happened after he touched the Triwizard Cup; the two stories make sense, they explain everything that has happened since Bertha Jorkins disappeared last summer."

Again, the two strongest bits of evidence - a confession by Voldemort's supporter, and the eyewitness account of the return.

Interesting Snape himself has no problem mentioning this at a later stage in the conversation. Why didn’t Dumbledore mention this if he was warned by Snape, given that Snape himself saw no problem mentioning this?

I doubt they would have taken the time to discuss whether or not Snape was OK with Dumbledore telling various people. Dumbledore seems to keep Snape's secrets ("That is between Professor Snape and myself, Harry"), so I would say he felt this was Snape's decision to make. If Snape himself chooses to reveal the information to others, in this case, I don't see how that is evidence against him.

The next one is Lupin in OOTP:

'Or rather, you messed it tip for him,' said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.'[/I]These quotes are rather clear that when Harry left Hogwarts and Voldemort called his deatheaters, signalling his return, Snape didn’t tell Dumbledore at that time, Harry was the one who alerted Dumbledore.

Lupin was not there at the end of GoF. He has no idea what sources of information other than Harry Dumbledore had, or what they told him. It is also not the point of the conversation. It is certainly true that Harry, not Snape, foiled Voldemort's plan, because Harry was there, and he escaped.

It does not seem vague to me.

I knew which line you meant, thanks. My opinion of it remains unchanged.

Interesting though that according to Snape Voldemort thinks that Snape joining the deatheaters to fight the orderis a little bit conspicuous, something he must not do because it would give the game away. Snape of course did exactly that at the end of HBP. Whatever reason Snape had for doing that it was not needed to convince Voldemort of his loyalties…

This could be not a reflection of his trust in Snape, but a reflection of hois decision to delegate the matter at the MoM to others. WHy risk his spy, when Lucius and Bella should have the matter well in hand?

That Voldemort viewed the murder of Dumbledore differently is suggested by Snape i n Spinner's End as well. "He means me to do it in the end." (And so Snape did).

Tough for Snape, I agree. Impossible to keep up in the long run as Dumbledore undoubtedly must have realised. But did Snape, torn between his wishes and his debt?

What do you see as the reason Snape would wish to promote Voldemort? The way you have his life arranged, he *knows* Voldemort had better be the loser, because the kid he is forced to protect is the one with the power, yadda yadda. You have him knowingly committing to the side he will have to help defeat. It is very un-pragmatic, a principled decision, as it were.

On a side note I wonder if Snape really thinks that the prophesy still plays a part. Maybe he thinks that the prophecy is already fulfilled, Harry has after all vanquished Voldemort many years ago as Dumbledore notes.

Voldemort and Dumbledore both believe the Prophecy still matters, and Voldemort has deduced there is more to it. Snape sees the relationship between Harry and Dumbledore. I don't see how he could fail to conclude that yes, Dumbledore believes Harry still has an important past to play. The more mediocre Snape believes Harry to be, the more forcefully this point ought to strike him.

The strange thing here is that he didn’t according to the canon we have on the subject. It really makes me wonder if there is a little plot hole here. It just doesn’t make sense for JKR to purposely mislead us on this point for no purpose whatsoever.

I don't think Harry's disappearance was immediately seen, because the Maze was tall, right? The earliest Dumbledore *could* have known something was wrong, in my view, was after Voldemort was restored to his body and called the Death Eaters to him, and then only if Snape reported it. (I disagree canon gives any indication one way or the other whether Snape did. Harry is not aware what passes between the adults in his life when he is not around, we have tons of examples for this).

no need for potions to suddenly become deadly even though we were told it wouldn’t kill,

Wouldn't kill immediately, please.

Just everything as it has been written but with twists to come regarding Snape’s true loyalty.

We are owed an explanation of the argument in the Forest, and of the Unbreakable Vow. It makes little sense for your loyal to Voldemort, indebted to Harry Snape to take it either.

No need to make JKR’s statement that she removed all of Harry’s protectors to become a lie with Snape acting as Harry’s hidden protector.

Is that not what you are doing, with the theory that Snape still carries a life debt that forces him to protect Harry time after time?

I believe that Snape is good. Then there is a side of me thinking that Snape is working for himself. There is a lot of evidence on every side. But I will still go and say that I truly believe that Snape is good, and will reveal that is Book 7. Besides, there is evidence in the HBP that suggests that Dumbledore told Snape that he has to kill him in the end anyways...

"Well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enormous
feet uneasily.
"Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too
much fer granted an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it
any more -'
"Do what?"
"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit
overworked, tha's all - anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out
he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty
firm with him---"

The Half-Blood Prince- Page 380
UK Edition

To me, that just says that Dumbledore told Snape that if it came down to it, then Snape would have to kill him... but thats just my opinion.

Lupin was not there at the end of GoF. He has no idea what sources of information other than Harry Dumbledore had, or what they told him. It is also not the point of the conversation. It is certainly true that Harry, not Snape, foiled Voldemort's plan, because Harry was there, and he escaped.
Good point - Lupin is missing in action, and is only mentioned when Sirius is told to go to "Lupin's Place" at the end of GoF.

Interestingly, while Lupin didn't see Snape's Dark Mark, Sirius as a dog was there when Fudge was shown the mark. Plus, Harry had told Sirius earlier in the book that Karkaroff and Snape were talking about marks on their arms, so Sirius is aware of all that, even if Lupin isn't.
That Voldemort viewed the murder of Dumbledore differently is suggested by Snape i n Spinner's End as well. "He means me to do it in the end." (And so Snape did).
"He" in that sentence is an "indefinite pronoun." It could refer to Voldemort, or it could refer to Dumbledore. Since Dumbledore had already been injured by the Horcrux, and Snape had probably "stoppered death" somehow (according to Olwen's theory), I believe Snape is talking about Dumbledore "meaning him to do it," with "it" being to let him go on to death.

Cancha touches on that in her post, too, with the quote about Hagrid overhearing Snape and Dumbledore. Snape "doesn't want to do it anymore," which could mean that he doesn't want to kill Dumbledore anymore
"Well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enormous
feet uneasily.
"Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too
much fer granted an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it
any more -'
"Do what?"
"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit
overworked, tha's all - anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out
he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty
firm with him---"

The Half-Blood Prince- Page 380
UK Edition

To me, that just says that Dumbledore told Snape that if it came down to it, then Snape would have to kill him... but thats just my opinion.

"Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too
much fer granted an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it
any more -'

I think this particular line is the one that convinces me that DD ISN'T asking Snape to kill him. Snape thinks DD is taking too much for granted. I can't see DD taking murder for granted. Can you imagine DD saying "Well, you're going to kill me anyway...."


Dumbledore told him flat out
he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty
firm with him---"

DD told him flat out....he agreed to do it....if Snape had really told DD all about the Vow DD would have said, to my mind, "Unfortunately, Severus, you have no choice." or "You're worth more to Harry than I am now" Or "This is hard on both of us, Severus." Instead DD lays down the law, and is firm with him.

I don't know DD attitude in this scene is like the one I use with my five year old who wanted a pet goldfish. I told him that if he wanted a pet goldfish he would have to take care of it. I let him know that I wasn't going to do the work for him (even though I would since I wouldn't want the poor thing to die lol). I gave him a clear set of standards. Fish=work. If you don't want to work then don't get the fish. He says he will and I trust him. He gets the fish. Doesn't take care of it. Says it's too much work. And what do I say? I tell him flat out that he agreed to do it and that's all there is to it. I'd be pretty firm with him.

In other words DD attitude in that scene is not that of someone who is ordering his own death. If I were to hazard a guess, I would think that it is something similar to the scene in OoTP when DD says "Severus, you know what I must ask you to do." At this point, surrounded by people and not wanting to lose face, Severus takes up the burden DD places upon him. However, in the forest scene, when he thinks no one is around to witness it, Snape shows his true colors and tries to back out.

Susanbones, Staniw, and I, as well as someothers, are in the vast minority here. I know that I am not going to change anyone's opinion, however, what I will ask is for the opposite view to not expect me to try. Instead of looking for things that would disprove what I, and other's, are saying, to take a stab and try to to find things that would prove what we are saying. If we say something, the gut reaction is, well prove it. (We do the same to you, of course, but you also outnumber us twelve to one! LOL)

In fact I would put forth a challenge. I will agree to argue the Snape is good side for two days, if someone from the opposite side will agree to argue the Snape is bad side for two days. In this challenge, while arguing the opposite side, those who participate should use as much canon as possible. Is anyone up for the challenge? (Just think of it as an online version of American Gladiators! lol)

But he didn’t sprint to Dumbledore. Harry informed Dumbledore of Voldemort’s return, not Snape, because that’s what we were told (OOTP). And we know from Kakaroff that former deatheaters did realise that Voldemort had returned. But for some reason Snape didn’t inform Dumbledore immediately… Could be a little plot hole though, or another indication that Snape was playing his own game right there. Would he have told Dumbledore that Voldemort did return if Harry hadn’t returned from the graveyard?
It was right in the middle of the third task of the Tri Wizard Cup that Voldemort summoned the Death Eaters. Dumbledore was busy with that, and the was a huge audience watching, so it probably wasn't a good time to show Dumbledore the Dark Mark burning black, or even to tell him about it. Snape was probably waiting for a safe time to tell Dumbledore, who, as we saw in the Pensieve, Snape had already informed that the Mark was growing clearer. Or perhaps Snape was so agitated by the summons and the evidence that Voldemort was back in full strength, that he found it best to withdraw from this highly public situation and calm himself. Or perhaps he wasn't intending to tell Dumbledore, but that seems unlikely, since Dumbledore was sure to find out sooner or later and if Snape was bad, he still had to maintain some credibility with Dumbledore.But he didn’t sprint to Dumbledore. Harry informed Dumbledore of Voldemort’s return, not Snape, because that’s what we were told (OOTP).
Citation, please? Many people on this forum don't distinguish between character opinions and facts of the story, I would like to judge for myself which this is.

[Sirius]"His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, your see. He messed it up."
"Or rather, you messed it up for him," said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
"How?" Harry asked, perplexed.
"You weren't supposed to survive!" said Sirius. "Nobody apart form his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness."
"And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore," said Lupin. "And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once."

But he didn’t sprint to Dumbledore. Harry informed Dumbledore of Voldemort’s return, not Snape, because that’s what we were told (OOTP).
I already posted the GoF scene that shows Snape reported this to Dumbledore today.
I really don't understand what you mean - Snape's Dark Mark was returning and he told Dumbledore he thought it meant something. After Harry returns, Snape tells Fudge about it, too.

I think we are talking about the moment when Voldemort actually summoned the Death Eaters, not earlier, when the Mark was growing clearer. ("It's coming back . . . Karkaroff's too . . . stronger and clearer than ever...") These are two separate incidents.Here we have Dumbledore trying to convince Fudge that Voldemort did return. He mentions his evidence and Snape’s mark isn’t among the evidence he mentions. Interesting Snape himself has no problem mentioning this at a later stage in the conversation. Why didn’t Dumbledore mention this if he was warned by Snape, given that Snape himself saw no problem mentioning this?
I think Snape having been a Death Eater was a rather delicate subject. Snape himself chose to bring it up and show his Dark Mark as evidence, but apparently Dumbledore didn't wish to force him to "come out" in public like that.

In fact I would put forth a challenge. I will agree to argue the Snape is good side for two days, if someone from the opposite side will agree to argue the Snape is bad side for two days.
:lol: I've always argued for both sides, although I believe Snape is most likely good.

I wouldn't use the Snape telling Dumbledore about the Dark Mark incident in GoF as proof in the good/bad argument. The book shows that Snape notified Dumbledore that the mark was growing darker. Traditionally, Voldemort summoned his Death Eaters when he wanted them to return. Snape may have been unsure of what he should do at this point. He left the Death Eaters and has been living comfortably under Dumbledore's protection. He convinced the good side of his loyalty to them and made Voldemort suspect Snape had left him forever. Snape was targetted for death by Voldemort in the graveyard scene.

What was Snape going to do now? The only way he could survive the sentence of death Voldemort had planned for him was to go back to spying. It was a huge gamble for Snape, which explains his "pale face" at the thought of returning.

As we saw at Spinner's End, Snape is a master at "spinning a tale". He was obviously successful at proving to Voldemort that he had spent the last 14 years spying on Dumbledore for him. He probably had to provide some "juicy tidbitsd" of information, too, as proof of his sincerity.

Now Dumbledore needs to make sure that Snape is still on his side. So a very witty Snape "spins a tale" for Dumbledore. I am sure he had a few "juicy tidbits" to pass on to him, too.

So now the double agent is back in full swing. He has kept the two greatest wizards of the age convinced he is on their side. I think he has had to do things to keep alive that he would not have had to do if he was just the Potions Master and Voldemort was dead.

Or perhaps Snape was so agitated by the summons and the evidence that Voldemort was back in full strength, that he found it best to withdraw from this highly public situation and calm himself. Or perhaps he wasn't intending to tell Dumbledore, but that seems unlikely, since Dumbledore was sure to find out sooner or later and if Snape was bad, he still had to maintain some credibility with Dumbledore.
Snape was with both Dumbledore and McGonagall immediately after the Tournament. Just because Voldemort was "calling" Snape with the scar doesn't mean that Snape would connect that with Harry during the Tournament. Teachers were patrolling the borders of the Maze, and no one knew that the Cup had been turned into a Portkey. As far as anyone knew, Harry and Cedric were the only ones in the Maze, and therefore Harry was probably safe.

In the Shack, Snape was attacked by the Trio all casting Expelliarmus at the same time. On the Tower, it was only Snape, yet Dumbledore doesn't just keel over dead, but flies out over the Tower wall and hangs there in the air for a second. That's pretty weird.


Great post, and great point, mwbashful! :)It is weird I agree. But it might only be Jo's way of making the scene more dramatic. I felt that the way Sirius did a swan dive through the veil was weird also. But apparently he's dead, so.... I just dont know.

He does gloat about causing Sirius's death, though, which is clearly connected with that. In claiming partial credit for Sirius's death, he is practically admitting he sent the Order to the Ministry!

That's hardly possible. First, it's fairly evident fom Bella's words an reactions that she had no idea Snape sent the Order - she would have definitely brought it up and demanded an explanation from him, seeing as she was trying to prove he's not trustworthy and a spy for the other side.

Second, knowing what Voldemort's reaction was when he didn't get the prophecy because the Order got in his way, I very much doubt Snape would be alive sfter Voldemort hearing about it, let alone one of his most trusted.

Third, by sending the Order to the Ministry and NOT arning the Death EAters or Voldemort that he had done so, he was hardly plotting a Death Eater ambush and causing Sirius's death - on the contrary, thus the advantage was for the Order and it was more likely that an unexpecting Death Eater would be killed instead of Sirius.

Fourth, merely sending the Order there could by no means assure Sirius's death - unless Snape were a Seer. Anyone could have been killed. Snape can't have known

Therefore I find it highly unlikely, illogical, and even going against canon, that Snape sent the Order with the intention to finish Sisrius, did not warn the Death Eaters that their enemy was coming, and then foolishly tell Bella or Voldemort about it and expect to live.

Because he was protecting Harry.

Yes, he was, and he was doing it because he knew he had to. He could have warned the Death Eaters and lied to Dumbeldore about it, but he didn't, thus diminidhing their chances of winning over the Order, and he did that by his own decision. I think this says something.

Didn’t he warn Voldemort? I don’t think we have any canon on that. Voldemort somehow did turn up at the ministry in the atrium; we have no idea where he was or why he turned up at that particular time. He heard the conversation between Bella and Harry though because he confirms to Bella that Harry was not lying. Could be the scar of course but I don’t think we know for sure what moved Voldemort to arrive.

I think we have a pretty good reason to believe he didn't. First, Bella would have undobtedly included it in her list of questions in Spinner's End - but she actually says "they were joined by half the Order before long!" without even mentioning it was Snape that had sent them and thus causing the Death Eatres' defeat. And second, Voldemort was surprised by Dumbledore's presence in the Atrium, whih shows he didn't expect him to be there.

Anyway one would expect a good Snape to warn Voldemort that the order is there (after of course waiting long enough to give Dumbledore a chance to come as well) just to keep his cover. Same as Voldemort’s Snape would do actually, without the waiting part.

He didn't have to, and he didn't,and as we saw, Bella doesn't suspect it was Snape that had sent them - and nether do any of the other Death Eaters, I presume.

Apologies if this partcular idea has already been discussed about 500 times! If it has could anyone suggest any links?
This is kind of speculation, as it depends on whether or not Snape had feelings for Lily, and if so, what the nature of those feelings was. However, if he did, would Snape ever truly be able to support Voldemort after he murdered someone he really cared about? Dumbledore tells Harry that he (Harry) is protected by his "ability to love" and I've often wondered if this was why he trusted Snape, if he knew of Snape's feelings for Lily and believed that Snape would never go back to Voldemort's side after what he'd done. Personally I like to think this could be the case, even if it is on slightly dodgy ground. :)

Therefore I find it highly unlikely, illogical, and even going against canon, that Snape sent the Order with the intention to finish Sisrius, did not warn the Death Eaters that their enemy was coming, and then foolishly tell Bella or Voldemort about it and expect to live.
I find it unlikely, too, for this reason - the fighting had actually stopped when Sirius died. He and Bella were the only ones still dueling, Dumbledore was already there tying up the DEs, and if Sirius had just hidden behind something, he would have been safe while Bella either ran away or got caught by Dumbledore. What does Snape have to do with that? Not a single thing that I can see. :huh:

Apologies if this partcular idea has already been discussed about 500 times! If it has could anyone suggest any links?
This is kind of speculation, as it depends on whether or not Snape had feelings for Lily, and if so, what the nature of those feelings was. However, if he did, would Snape ever truly be able to support Voldemort after he murdered someone he really cared about? Dumbledore tells Harry that he (Harry) is protected by his "ability to love" and I've often wondered if this was why he trusted Snape, if he knew of Snape's feelings for Lily and believed that Snape would never go back to Voldemort's side after what he'd done. Personally I like to think this could be the case, even if it is on slightly dodgy ground. :)
The idea that Snape loved Lily has been discussed a lot. The arguments tend to get very emotional, so the topic has closed down for now.

There is a thread called, "Why did Dumbledore trust Snape" in which you can discuss your ideas.
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=94589&page=22

Thank you SusanBones111, that's great, I'll go and have a look at that thread!

i like to think ron is correct and snape is evil because i like rons simple views and his farfetched theorys

I'm not sure if snape is evil enough. He did promise narcissa in a wizard's oath that if draco failed to do his mission then Snape would complete it for him. I guess it could depend on what would happen if a wizard's oath is broken and snape hadn't killed dumbledore. I think Snape is on his own side really, he does what will best help him in the end.:hmm:

I think Snape is on his own side really, he does what will best help him in the end.
But if he keeps flip-flopping around, how will he know which thing will turn out right in the end? He's not a seer.

I think Snape is very consistent, and except for Dumbledore's death, has never done anything else against the Order. And of course, Dumbledore's death is tied to Draco and the Vow, which was sort of like the Devil's Snare getting hold of Snape.

If Snape had feelings for Lily that were either ones he admitted to or ones of any significance, why would eh join a group whose goal was to purify the wizarding world by killing any 'contaminants' such as Mudbloods? His action in doing so is not the action of a person trying to serve the side of good, and his remorse and return could have been for selfish purposes, or even, as he tells Bella, completely insincere.

I agree. But what does it mean to 'mean it'? In the case of Cruciatus, it means you want to cause someone agony, I presume, since it is the torture curse. In the case of Avada Kedavra, it means that you intend the target of your curse to die, since it is the killing curse.

You bring up an interesting point. Since in order to perform the Killing Curse, you have to want that person the die, doesn't that mean there is a possibility that Severus just wanted to relieve Albus of his suffering? Albus has ingested a potion that is having a serious reaction on his health. He is already dying from the potion, but it's a slow death. Severus is a Legilimens. Perhaps Albus allowed Severus to see into his mind and learn that he is dying because of the potion from the cave. If Severus is loyal to Albus, which I believe he is, then he wouldn't have wanted Albus to suffer anymore. He would have used his intent on relieving Albus of his suffering to fuel the curse. You have to mean to kill the person in order to use it, and Severus meant to rid Albus of his suffering.

When Severus walks up to Albus on the tower, we are told that he is gazing at Albus. Now, we are also told that there is hatred and revulsion etched on his face. What if that hatred and revulsion are due to the fact that he has learned that Voldemort's potion is killing Albus? Severus knows that Albus is really the only wizard, besides himself perhaps, that is strong enough to stand up to Voldemort. Severus knows that he can't save Albus on the tower because there are too many Death Eaters up there for him to do it successfully, and he knows that Albus won't get off the tower alive. He realizes that he needs to end Albus's suffering, but he can only do that by killing him himself.

So, at that moment, he feels hatred towards Voldemort for causing all of this happen; and he feels revulsion towards himself because he doesn't want to have to carry through with it, but he knows that there isn't any other choice. Albus will die no matter what happens, but if he isn't the one who does the killing, then he will die as well because of the Vow. He knows that Harry will be devastated by Albus's death, but he also knows that with Albus gone, he is the only person out there with the knowledge and the skills to help Harry prevail against Voldemort in the end. So, he has a choice to make: Either he refuses to kill Albus, and they both die, thus removing the only two people capable of helping Harry; or he kills Albus, ensuring that he survives, which allows him to contiunue on helping Harry in his battle against Voldemort. In the end, he chooses the second option. It may not seem like he made the right choice, but in the end that was the only choice he could make.

Of course, this whole senario depends upon Severus being good. This is how I saw the events of the tower, and while those of you who think Severus is evil will probably disagree with me; I think some of you who believe Severus is good will see how much this senario is possible.

So.... what do you guys think?

Of course, this whole senario depends upon Severus being good. This is how I saw the events of the tower, and while those of you who think Severus is evil will probably disagree with me; I think some of you who believe Severus is good will see how much this senario is possible.

So.... what do you guys think?
I think you're possibly right! :agree: I wrote a few pages back about a theory my friend "Olwen" came up with - that perhaps Snape had "stoppered death" when the ring horcrux was nearly killing Dumbledore. His hand became withered but he didn't die. So on the Tower, Snape was merely "unstoppering death" or fulfilling Dumbledore's "living will" to remove "life support." :)

Also, that phrase, "He can't kill you if you're already dead" may be important, because at one point in the cave, Harry thinks Dumbledore is dead, not moving or breathing. This is when Dumbledore is begging for water, but Harry can't produce any into the cup, and Dumbledore falls to the ground. Dumbledore has told Harry not to touch the water in the lake, but in desperation, he pours water from the lake over Dumbledore's face and he wakes up. We don't know what's in that water? Does it turn people into an Inferi?

One of my theories is that if Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, he might have died and become an Inferi, and that's why he had the look of revulsion. Who would want Dumbledore to become a zombie? I think that's one way Harry might forgive Snape is if, in killing Dumbledore, he saved him from a fate worse than death as an Inferi.

Don't you have to be dead already to become an Inferius? They are defined as reanimated corpses, not enslaved living people. This is a theory that shifts the blame for Dumbledore's death off of Snape and onto Harry. So now Harry would have to carry the burden of Dumbledore's death. I don't think so.

Here is what Snape had to say about Inferi: "The Inferius is a corpse that has been reanimated by a Dark Wizard's spells. It is not alive, it is merely used like a puppet to do the wizard's bidding.

Don't you have to be dead already to become an Inferius? They are defined as reanimated corpses, not enslaved living people. This is a theory that shifts the blame for Dumbledore's death off of Snape and onto Harry. So now Harry would have to carry the burden of Dumbledore's death. I don't think so.

It is quite clear that Harry participated in feeding Dumbledore a substance or substances that are not good for him. On the other hand, it is also quite clear that Dumbledore would share responsibility in this instance, since 1) he drank the first three goblets of the green stuff himself, 2) he may have concealed from Harry some knowledge of what the green stuff was, and 3) he ordered Harry to make him drink the stuff.

If SIP's theory is totally off base but Snape still did what Dumbledore asked, some of the same sorts of reasons probably apply to Snape as would apply to Harry under SIP's theory, since 1) Dumbledore got himself into that untenable situation on the Tower in the first place and 2) he may have ordered Snape to kill him as well.

However, I don't see why you would object to moving responsibility from Snape to Harry in the first place. Isn't Harry the main character? Should not his decisions and their fallout be the focus of the books? :huh:

It doesn't matter. Harry didn't feed Dumbledore a substance that would turn him into an Inferius. We have canon on how you make an Inferius and Snape only mentioned spells, and no potions. Snape did kill Dumbledore with an Avada Kedavra, and this was something that was probably prearranged with Snape as a last resort to save Snape's life since he had made the Unbreakable Vow. That's why Dumbledore pleaded. Snape was willing to let the Vow kill him, and Dumbledore didn't want that since he didn't have long to live anyway, and Snape's position with Voldemort was crucial. The revulsion on Snape's face was simply the response of a man who had to kill someone he respected (and probably loved).

Dumbledore did willingly drink that potion since he wanted to spare Harry or his friends the horror of having it done to them later on during their horcrux hunt. But Dumbledore was already dying so he could afford to poison himself. Whatever happened to his hand will be very significant since we will probably find out that it was killing Dumbledore and he had very little time left. That will help Harry better understand what transpired on the tower.

And I am certain of several things. One of which is that Harry isn't going to be burdened with any deaths on his conscience. However he dispatches Voldemort it won't be an outright killing. And another is that he certainly won't be burdened with Dumbledore's death.

It doesn't matter. Harry didn't feed Dumbledore a substance that would turn him into an Inferius. We have canon on how you make an Inferius and Snape only mentioned spells, and no potions. Snape did kill Dumbledore with an Avada Kedavra, and this was something that was probably prearranged with Snape as a last resort to save Snape's life since he had made the Unbreakable Vow. That's why Dumbledore pleaded. Snape was willing to let the Vow kill him, and Dumbledore didn't want that since he didn't have long to live anyway, and Snape's position with Voldemort was crucial. The revulsion on Snape's face was simply the response of a man who had to kill someone he respected (and probably loved).

Oh, God, I'm so glad to read this. That's exactly how I see that scene and how assess Snape's feelings then. Thank you! :)

I was reading Goblet of Fire again last night and something caught my eye that I have never caught before, a clue so hidden it was amazing I hadn't caught it before. Harry has just witnessed the scenes in the Pensieve and Dumbledore pulled him out. Then Dumbledore shows Harry what it does and inserts a thought to show Harry. Harry was "astonished" to see his own face in the Pensieve. Here is where I will quote from, on page 598 (American Hardback version):

"Dumbledore placed his long hands on either side of the Pensieve and swirled it, rather as a gold prospector would pan for fragments of gold...and Harry saw his own face change smoothly into Snape's, who opened his mouth and spoke to the ceiling, his voice echoing slightly.

'It's coming back...Karkaroff's too...stronger and clearer than ever...' "

That was Snape who spoke out of the Pensieve from Dumbledore's memory. Obviously Snape told Dumbledore about his arm and how it is getting clearer, meaning Voldemort is getting stronger. Why did Dumbledore choose this memory to show Harry, knowing how Harry hates Snape? But more importantly, we know Snape was warning Dumbledore of Voldemort's growing power. Is this a clue that JK Rowling deviously stuck in here, hoping we wouldn't catch it? After all, it isn't new information to us or to Harry. Harry overheard that conversation himself at the end of Potions when Karkaroff wouldn't leave Snape alone. By Dumbledore showing Harry that memory, Harry should realize Snape is confiding in Dumbledore.

That was just my guess, however. I could be wrong. Why do you think Dumbledore showed Harry that memory?

It's more of a plot device really to confirm Harry's suspicions when he saw Snape and Karkakoff discussing the mark earlier in the chapter. Snape telling DD the dark mark is stronger doesn't really prove that snape is confiding. He is just providing some information to solidify his position as spy.

Harry should realize Snape is confiding in Dumbledore.

Oh, well Snape has been giving loads of information to the order but does that stop Harry from suspecting Snape? I don't think so, so you can't really expect Harry to look at it that way. ;)

BTW- you might be interested in Things That Took Several Readings To Catch v 7.0 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101858)

Oh, well Snape has been giving loads of information to the order but does that stop Harry from suspecting Snape? I don't think so, so you can't really expect Harry to look at it that way. ;)


took the words right out of my mouth on that one! :)

i, too, think that they may have been dumbeldore'e way of reassuring harry that, yes, snape and is good and that, yes, he confides in him. i think that harry has always had a difficult letting go of his suspicions of snape. all throughout the first five books, whenever something went wrong, harry was quick to jump to the conclusion that snape may have been wrong. he questions dumbledore about where snapes loyalties lie on more than one occasion. in my opinion, dumbledore saw this as a chance to show a bit of the loyalty that he saw to harry.

It's more of a plot device really to confirm Harry's suspicions when he saw Snape and Karkakoff discussing the mark earlier in the chapter. Snape telling DD the dark mark is stronger doesn't really prove that snape is confiding. He is just providing some information to solidify his position as spy.

of course, this makes sense, also. rowling is a great writer [as well know :)] and often makes multiple uses of the same thing.

So I guess what everyone is saying is that the passage doesn't mean anything?

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