Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v4

References:
Version 1 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=3237166)
Version 2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=77469)
Version 3 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=80968)


Hi keevil, what this lengthy thread says it that JKR is good at what she does. She has written a cerefully balanced character designed to be confusing. But I agree with you that Snape turning out bad would send all the wrong messgaes, and goes against what she said herself ages ago about the character:
Questioner: There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. That's all I’m going to say.

I interpret that as meaning he did something bad, but he's going to make amends in what comes next, and that can only mean in book 7. But I also take it whatever he is making amends for happened before whatever book was out in 1999, which is when the quote is from. The only thing I can see which fits the bill is Lily's death. At the very least he is atoning for his part in that, when he tipped off Voldemort about the prophecy. But at the most, he never ever worked for Voldemort, and telling him about the prophecy was on Dumbledore's orders. Still leaves Snape with a debt to pay, and a nice object lesson to all the readers about having to make difficult choices which can unexpectedly come back and bite you. But in that case, his redemption would perhaps not be so much for bad things he has done himself, but rather his original redemption from being a typical Slytherin seeking to join the death eaters set at school, to a mature adult who sees Voldemort's plans as a very bad idea.

But the way I read it, Dumbledore was behaving like a marked man from the very start of book 6. That can only mean he was planning to die, and that can only mean Snape was in on it. I see absolutely no sense in Dumbledore arranging for Snape to kill him (D undoubtedly did arrange it), unless Snape was on the same side as Dumbledore. The only advantages I have seen suggested for Dumbledore from his death, the way it was stage-managed, lie in advancing Snape amongst the death eaters. Nothing else makes sense.
JK Rowling had a complete outline of the story and had actually written the last chapter before she had finished the first book. So whatever the thing that Snape is redeemed for doesn't necessarily have to had happen before she actually wrote the book that it happens in. So, the redemption could be from book 6.
Very well said. But, are you saying that Snape was never a death eater?
Or are you simply denying that all the bad things he has done were on Voldemort's orders?

I really like what you said about the "marked man" thing. I felt this way the entire book..he seemed to know what was coming for him. The way he acted was what started the theories of him switching with certain people..and that it wasn't Dumbledore all along. I do not believe this, because I agree with what you said, all the evidence is there that Dumbledore knew he was going to die, and why would it be arranged if Snape was in fact on Voldemort's side.
:D

By thinking that the redemption was from book 6...are you implying that Snape's redemption was in fact in direction to being loyal to Voldemort?
Or that killing Dumbledore was his last chance of saving Harry...or however you choose to interperet his redemption in book 6 if it was in fact for the good side.


Go ahead and continue discussion. :)

Susan: yes, I know about the last chapter and take your point. Dumbledore's death is a pretty major point and seems likely to have been included in the original draft. Also, the circumstances are so reminiscent of the story of Beowulf that I am sure this accounted for him being called wulfric, which we knew from the start. So it is possible that the thing to be redeemed was what happened in book 6, even though she mentions seven. But it does say he will be redeemed in 7, and as keevil said, I don't see how that means he will be on the bad side.

Now, as to the thing to be redeemed, from what she said it might be taken to be what happened in book 6, but the discussion was taking place when we only has book 3. At least the questioner had enough in mind to think Snape was being redeemed in those days, which if the story is logical means he must have done something bad before that. As I said, I think book 6 was a setup and more likely part of the redemption then something needing to be redeemed. From the authors point of view I find the idea of writing Snape so he appears bad, despite his actually being on the good side every single time, as quite brilliant.

I 'm not certain whether Snape was ever really a death eater. But first, no one has convinced me that Snape telling Voldemort half the prophecy was something which helped Voldemort. As far as I can see, knowing about the prophecy simply screwed up Voldemorts war effort and derailed all his plans. He stopped what he was doing and went out searching for children instead. Tactically, i think it was a good move for Dumbledore to sidetrack him that way. I find it incredibly hard to believe that even a good spy could be following Dumbledore every single minute so that he could have been in the right place to witness a one-off like the prophecy. It wholly stretches credulity to believe he might have been lucky enough to be there, but then missed the bit most vital for Voldemort. If it turns out he really was a spy for V and happened to hear just exactly what Dumbledore would have wanted him to hear, then that is incredibly bad writing. Also, we have the fact that Dumbledore was very shifty (well, lied) about exactly what happened when the prophecy was made. So this also has the feel of a put up job. I think on both occasions, the prophecy and D's death, Snape was following Dumbledore's orders.

As to whether he was always on Dumbledore's side: if the above is true, then yes, I think he was. We don't know of anything else bad he is supposed to have done. He has an amazingly clean record for someone with such a bad reputation. People ask , what made him turn to the good side, but perhaps they should ask, what exactly did he ever do to make people think he was on the bad side?

I 'm not certain whether Snape was ever really a death eater. But first, no one has convinced me that Snape telling Voldemort half the prophecy was something which helped Voldemort. As far as I can see, knowing about the prophecy simply screwed up Voldemorts war effort and derailed all his plans. He stopped what he was doing and went out searching for children instead. Tactically, i think it was a good move for Dumbledore to sidetrack him that way. I find it incredibly hard to believe that even a good spy could be following Dumbledore every single minute so that he could have been in the right place to witness a one-off like the prophecy. It wholly stretches credulity to believe he might have been lucky enough to be there, but then missed the bit most vital for Voldemort. If it turns out he really was a spy for V and happened to hear just exactly what Dumbledore would have wanted him to hear, then that is incredibly bad writing. Also, we have the fact that Dumbledore was very shifty (well, lied) about exactly what happened when the prophecy was made. So this also has the feel of a put up job. I think on both occasions, the prophecy and D's death, Snape was following Dumbledore's orders.

Several issues here:

1. Dumbledore didn't know the prophecy was going to come, yet your idea requires all sorts of planning on behalf of Dumbledore and Snape to co-ordinate their activities for reasons they wouldn't even have known themselves. Obviously that is unlikely.

2. If Snape revealing the prophecy to Lord Voldemort was a tactic of Dumbledore's to distract him it means that Dumbledore was quite happy to sacrifice the lives of others. In this case, his "tactic" cost James and Lily their lives. Does this really sound like something Dumbledore would do? Of course not. Furthermore, it's a distraction with no benefits - Lord Voldemort is killing people either way.

A far more reasonable theory is what we see in the books. Snape was spying and wanted to know what Dumbledore was up to. He managed to stumble accidentally upon the prophecy and reported what he knew to the Dark Lord. This doesn't stretch the story's credibility at all, in fact it's far more likely than Dumbledore sacrificing others as a distraction.

I conclude that there's no reason to suggest that Snape wasn't a Death Eater at some point in time. Whether he still is is another matter completely.

Hi picko, re your points:
1) If Snape is working for Dumbledore, always has been, then it is likely that Dumbledore can summon him at a moments notice. He later arranges for the OOP people to communicate by patronus, so I do not see any difficulty in Dumbledore summoning Snape the moment he realises what is happening. This requires Dumbledore to act at once, but technically Snape could be at the door, by apparition, just as Trelawney is waking up from her trance...which is exactly what trelawney says happened.

The story is that Snape heard the prophecy. This is not necessary if he is working for Dumbledore, who could simply have told him, or shown him by pensieve afterwards. Indeed, they could have spent some time afterwards discussing exactly what to do. They had hours, anyway, before Snape would have had to tell Voldemort. Presumably Aberforth was also already on Dumbledores side, and he is the only other person we know to have been involved. I find it much easier to imagine that Dumbledore immediately acted on the prophecy, summoning his two assistants, than the set of coincidences I described above whereby Snape as Voldemort's spy only managed to do everything the way Dumbledore would have wanted them done. I do find the idea of Dumbledore stage-managing the prophecy so that a genuine spy of Voldemorts could have overheard it as too far fetched.

2) There was a war going on. People were being terrorised and killed all the time, apparently. Voldemort was winning, apparently. That strikes me as a situation in which Dumbledore might have been getting a bit desperate. Then, remember that practically everybody in the whole wizarding world is one of Dumbledore's former students, so it makes no difference to him if James dies, or fred Starling, someone we have never heard of. At the time the prophecy was released Dumbledore would not have known that anybody would die as a result, nor who might become involved. No one ever does know who will die when they are fighting a war. But they do know that someone will die. The only alternative would be just to give up and stop fighting Voldemort. Doing that would not have saved lives. This is exactly the sort of choice people have to make in a war, and I am not at all surprised that JKR tells her readers this. She was interviewed on Richard and Judy recently and said exactly that (from memory) 'we are dealing with absolute evil. There is always a price to pay'. I might agree that this may not sound like something Dumbledore would do, but another lesson from the books as they have gone on, is that Dumbledore is not whiter than white as he first appears, and has had to make these choices.

The distraction was a good tactic. The direct result of releasing the prophecy was that Voldemorts mortal body was destroyed and death eater attacks were stopped. It was not a complete victory, as we know, but it was much much better than what had been happening before. So what else could Dumbledore have done? The war had been going on for a long time. Dumbledore needed to do something different if he was going to break the pattern where his side was slowly losing.

No, I cannot imagine that Snape was following Dumbledore about all the time and spying on him without Dumbledore noticing. And then just gets that part of the prophecy which makes Voldemort do all the wrong things.

I have not addressed the next part of the prophecy, where it says the dark lord will mark him as his equal, and about them killing each other. It is stated by Dumbledore that it was important that Voldemort not know about these other parts of the prophecy. Dumbledore admits that Voldemort did not hear exactly the parts which Dumbledore would not have wished him to hear. More, if Voldemort had never heard any of the prophecy, then he would not have gone off and done any 'marking as his equal'. It was necessary that Voldemort know the first part of the prophecy.

Incidentally, I don't think Voldemort planned to kill Harry, I think he wanted to kidnap him. That would be consistent with the partial prophecy, which does not say that the chosen one will kill the dark lord. rather it could be read to suggest that he might become a powerful ally if handled correctly. Dumbledore totally misled Voldemort, and i think he did it entirely deliberately.

maybe,but i really doubt it.i think he's evil and the only way he's coming back to the good side is if they're the winning side.but i hope harry teaches him a lesson he'll never forget...

But what exactly makes you think he is evil? what did he do that shows it?

But what exactly makes you think he is evil? what did he do that shows it?You are correct when you say that Snape did not do anything evil from the time he left Voldemort's side years ago until Spinners End. Then we learn that he is responsible for Emmeline Vance's death.

He is a known Death Eater. He has the Dark Mark on his arm. Bellatrix recognizes him as one of Voldemort's favorites, so the evidence is overwhelming.

But there is a concept out there called "guilt by association". If you hang around with a bunch of Death Eaters, you will be judged by their actions. Just being a Death Eater, even if you never commited an evil act, is enough to get thrown into Azkaban. So that is why he is considered bad.

But there is a concept out there called "guilt by association". If you hang around with a bunch of Death Eaters, you will be judged by their actions. Just being a Death Eater, even if you never commited an evil act, is enough to get thrown into Azkaban. So that is why he is considered bad.

I don't know if Snape's evil or good and I don't know either if Snape is going to come back to the good side. I know that Snape didn't do anything evil since he left Voldemort's side until Spinners End but it doesn't mean he is good! It was just a mask...
I agree with Susan Bones 111. If Snape is a Death Eater he is a bad guy...

Hi picko, re your points:
1) If Snape is working for Dumbledore, always has been, then it is likely that Dumbledore can summon him at a moments notice. He later arranges for the OOP people to communicate by patronus, so I do not see any difficulty in Dumbledore summoning Snape the moment he realises what is happening. This requires Dumbledore to act at once, but technically Snape could be at the door, by apparition, just as Trelawney is waking up from her trance...which is exactly what trelawney says happened. Apparition or not, I somehow doubt that Snape would have been there in time to hear the prophecy. And it is pointed out that Snape heard the first part, the beginning of the prophecy. Dumbledore couldn´t know when Trelawney went into trance-mode, what the prophecy would be about in the first place. I think there is too much assumption for this theory and we should go with what the text says here, IMO.

The story is that Snape heard the prophecy. This is not necessary if he is working for Dumbledore, who could simply have told him, or shown him by pensieve afterwards. Indeed, they could have spent some time afterwards discussing exactly what to do. They had hours, anyway, before Snape would have had to tell Voldemort.Here you just explain yourself why the scenario above would have been unnecessary and too complicated if we assume that Snape related the Prophecy to Voldemort on Dumbledore´s orders. If that was the case, Dumbledore could have just sit down with Snape afterwards and tell him the words of the Prophecy and lay out his plan about distracting Voldemort. Plus, if this theory is true, that would indeed make Dumbledore a liar. Why hasn´t Dumbledore told Harry the whole background of the events then? Do you think Dumbledore would rather have Harry hate Snape instead of making him - Dumbledore - responsible for risking James´and Lily´s lives? I think Dumbledore is a man who is not afraid of taking responsibiliy for his decisions.

2) There was a war going on. People were being terrorised and killed all the time, apparently. Voldemort was winning, apparently. That strikes me as a situation in which Dumbledore might have been getting a bit desperate. Then, remember that practically everybody in the whole wizarding world is one of Dumbledore's former students, so it makes no difference to him if James dies, or fred Starling, someone we have never heard of. At the time the prophecy was released Dumbledore would not have known that anybody would die as a result, nor who might become involved. No one ever does know who will die when they are fighting a war. But they do know that someone will die. The only alternative would be just to give up and stop fighting Voldemort. Doing that would not have saved lives. This is exactly the sort of choice people have to make in a war, and I am not at all surprised that JKR tells her readers this. She was interviewed on Richard and Judy recently and said exactly that (from memory) 'we are dealing with absolute evil. There is always a price to pay'. I might agree that this may not sound like something Dumbledore would do, but another lesson from the books as they have gone on, is that Dumbledore is not whiter than white as he first appears, and has had to make these choices.Yes, there was a war going on and the Potters as well as the Longbottoms were members of the Order but innocent children were involved in the Prophecy and I cannot imagine that Dumbledore would play with their lives.

The distraction was a good tactic. The direct result of releasing the prophecy was that Voldemorts mortal body was destroyed and death eater attacks were stopped. It was not a complete victory, as we know, but it was much much better than what had been happening before. So what else could Dumbledore have done? The war had been going on for a long time. Dumbledore needed to do something different if he was going to break the pattern where his side was slowly losing.Dumbledore couldn´t predict the exact order of events at Godric´s Hollow. He couldn´t know about the sacrifice of Lily, the blood-protection and the subsequent destruction of Voldemort´s body. All he could reckon with was Voldemort at some point finding the child he was looking for and killing it.

More, if Voldemort had never heard any of the prophecy, then he would not have gone off and done any 'marking as his equal'. It was necessary that Voldemort know the first part of the prophecy. Yes, it was important to set the whole Harry-Potter saga in motion. That is why JKR lets Snape overhear the part of the Prophecy and relate it to Voldemort.

Incidentally, I don't think Voldemort planned to kill Harry, I think he wanted to kidnap him..We know from the text that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry. He clearly performed the Avada Kedavra on him. If he just wanted to kidnap Harry, he could have done so after James and Lily were out of the way. He didn´t. He wanted to kill Harry. Besides it would have not made sense for Voldemort to kidnap Harry. He has this pathological fear of losing his absolute power that he instantly kills whoever could compromise that.

You are correct when you say that Snape did not do anything evil from the time he left Voldemort's side years ago until Spinners End. Then we learn that he is responsible for Emmeline Vance's death.



He claims to be responsible for her death, he may have been lying. It's doubtful that Bellatrix would check his story with Voldemort, as she would have to admit why Narcissa was there in the first place. Which might get here killed, as Voldemort told her not to tell anyone about the plan.

And even if he wasn't lying, we don't know what the information was that lead to Vances' death. He may have given Voldemort information that he thought was harmless enough, but it turned out to be more damaging than he expected.

He also claims partial responsibility for Sirius' death. He did tell Voldemort about Harrys' love for Sirius. Which is how Voldemort knew how to tempt Harry into the DOM, but there was no way that he could have known that it would lead to Sirius' death.

He also claims partial responsibility for Sirius' death. He did tell Voldemort about Harrys' love for Sirius. Which is how Voldemort knew how to tempt Harry into the DOM, but there was no way that he could have known that it would lead to Sirius' death.

I think it is telling that the claim about Vance is made in the same statement as Sirius. Snape did not provide any very important or unique information which allowed Voldemort to lure Harry-Kreacher was far more instrumental. Information such as Sirius and Harry liking each other, or Sirius's Animagus form, was known to Peter as well.

ronjalina, Harry plainly showed he hated snape for what he did, so I think Dumbledore might reasonably feel that just before going into a battle situation was not a good time to explain that actually Snape did it because he, Dumbledore, had ordered him to. But also Dumbledore has lately been going on quite a bit about how he has been putting off telling Harry bad news. In this case he also could not tell Harry. If this information leaks then Snape's cover would well and truly be blown with Voldemort. Dumbledore has to maintain the fiction that Snape did it because he was a loyal death eater.

Re involving children in a war: this is quite normal, read the news. Also remember, the main characters of these books ARE children. But also, the order was only formed AFTER the prophecy was made. It specifically contained everyone at risk, in an attempt to protect them.

Re snape getting lucky. Yes, it is possible that snape happening to hear the prophecy is simply an authors device to get over a tricky bit in the plot. But if it is, then it is a poor example of JKR's work. maybe she boxed herself in by mistake, I can't tell. I agree, we do always have to decide how far it is possible to rely on what is written in the text, as it may contain 'mistakes'.

Godrics Hollow: The thing is, we do not know exactly what happened. There is even some confusion about the order of deaths, based upon the priori incantatem stuff, because there was a publishing mixup and some editions differ. There is another of JKRs deliberate information gaps about exactly what happened there. It might be, for example, that Snape was present and zapped Voldemort, but this was covered up by claiming the baby did it with a spell rebound.

he is absolutaly good, 100%, no questions ,hands down, totaly and uterly good !!!!! :D :elaugh: i just know he is he's got to be, i mean cmon who seriously thinks he's evil :NC:

Re involving children in a war: this is quite normal, read the news. Also remember, the main characters of these books ARE children. But also, the order was only formed AFTER the prophecy was made. It specifically contained everyone at risk, in an attempt to protect them.

Re snape getting lucky. Yes, it is possible that snape happening to hear the prophecy is simply an authors device to get over a tricky bit in the plot. But if it is, then it is a poor example of JKR's work. maybe she boxed herself in by mistake, I can't tell. I agree, we do always have to decide how far it is possible to rely on what is written in the text, as it may contain 'mistakes'.



Yes it's true that children are often involved in war. Some people have even booby-trapped them, to use them as human weapons. But in a fictional story no-one on the "Good" side would deliberately use a child as human bait. Especially Dumbledore. He would rather risk his own life, than that of an innocent child.

You may think that it was poor writing on JkRs' part, having Snape just happen to be there to overhear the prophecy. For that matter, it was also a little too convenient that Trelawney just happened to make the prophecy in front of Dumbledore, when she could of, just as easily, made it to the barman, or some-one on the street.

But rather than "poor writing", I prefer to think of it as Destiny. Dumbledore was destined to hear the whole prophecy, and Snape was destined to overhear part of it. Because Voldemort was only destined to hear that part, and act accordingly.

I, personally, am inclined to think that Snape is good. I don't think that anyone, even an excellent Oclummens, could fool Dumbledore. Snape had been around Dumbledore too long to fool him.

I, personally, am inclined to think that Snape is good. I don't think that anyone, even an excellent Oclummens, could fool Dumbledore. Snape had been around Dumbledore too long to fool him.
I agree. I think Snape is a good enough Occlumens to lie to Voldemort, and Voldemort would believe Snape because he is overconfident in his own Legilimency. I think Dumbledore, being much humbler than Voldemort, is more likely to doubt his ability to detect a lie. He would rely on something that logic showed to be a perfect reason to trust Snape.

I agree. I think Snape is a good enough Occlumens to lie to Voldemort, and Voldemort would believe Snape because he is overconfident in his own Legilimency. I think Dumbledore, being much humbler than Voldemort, is more likely to doubt his ability to detect a lie. He would rely on something that logic showed to be a perfect reason to trust Snape.

Exactly. Voldemort is very arrogant and thinks of himself very highly, therefore he is quite convinced that no one is a better Occlumens than he is Legilimens.
Like you said, Dumbledore is a much humbler man, and, having made mistakes in his past, (Moody/Crouch, Quirrel, ect.), he probably realises that he is not always correct. Therefore yes, he is probably more careful around certain people, and the reasons he has for trusting Snape are seemingly a lot more sound.


(PS: your signature is ace!)

Grim reaper, Dumbledore might prefer to risk his life rather than someone elses, but that was not his choice. He was presented with a prophecy. His choice is either to stick it in its glass ball and leave it gathering dust in the ministry, or release it. He does not have the choice to rewrite it, except in so far as he can control how much is released. It is a case, as JKR is fond of saying, of making choices. Dumbledore keeps going on about how our choices define us. Maybe the issue of making choices was weighing rather heavily on his conscience. I did get the feeling he seemed a bit depressed at the end of OOP.

More, we have another example where Dumbledore had to make such a choice. In HBP Dumbledore clearly knew that Draco was up to no good in the school. Two students were nearly killed, but Dumbledore felt it better to do nothing and let Draco continue. He deliberately conspicuously left the castle to allow Draco to launch a full scale battle inside the castle. Lots of the children could have been killed. It was a calculated risk of their lives.

Now, I think you make a stronger point regarding the remarkable chance that Dumbledore heard the prophecy. Obviously whatever forces are responsible for causing prophecies must ensure that they happen when someone is there to get the message. And yes, this prophecy does seem to have been directed specifically to Dumbledore. If a prophecy demon could wait until he had Dumbledore's attention, then presumably he could also wait for a moment when Snape was listening. But by that logic, the demon intended Dumbledore to get the full message and snape only half?

I think this point has now been pushed so far that it has clearly dropped off the edge of JKRs actualised world. Analysing the text presents a real difficulty in deciding where there is deliberate evidence of a hint, and where the analysis has just gone so far that the author never even considered the point. It is extremely arbitrary of me to argue that analysing the actions of prophecy demons is a step too far, but analysing the actions of snape and dumbledore is not. I know that, and I know that someone happening to overhear something is a tried and tested literary device which appears in many many books. But these books are rather unusual, and I really do think we are being invited to spot the deliberate mistakes amongst the rest. I think everyone here agrees on that, and it is why we are here.

I had considered the possibility that the whole thing was a put up job, that with some bit of magic Dumbledore might have caused trelawney to have a prophecy, just when Snape was listening. That would work, but i am not convinced the ministry would have accepted it as genuine. maybe they would, on the strength of Dumbledores memory of trelawney's performance. In that case it would not be necessary to assume that Snape was working for Dumbledore, indeed rather the reverse. It would have been a setup to fool a bonafide Voldemort spy.

My own starting point for this was the discrepancy between trelaney's recollection of events and what Dumbledore tells harry. There is clearly an anomaly that suggests Snape ought to have heard all the prophecy if he was not captured by Aberforth untill after trelawney had finished prophecying, which is essentially what she said. Clearly Dumbledore lied to Harry about the exact details. It is not entirely clear why he should do that, unless something really important was at stake. This could perhaps have been to spare snapes feelings about something he now regrets very much, but it could also be the very much more important notion tht actually Snape and Dumbledore have a prepared story which was released to Voldemort, and it is vitally important that nothing is ever said which could contradict it.

He claims to be responsible for her death, he may have been lying. It's doubtful that Bellatrix would check his story with Voldemort, as she would have to admit why Narcissa was there in the first place. Which might get here killed, as Voldemort told her not to tell anyone about the plan.

And even if he wasn't lying, we don't know what the information was that lead to Vances' death. He may have given Voldemort information that he thought was harmless enough, but it turned out to be more damaging than he expected.

He also claims partial responsibility for Sirius' death. He did tell Voldemort about Harrys' love for Sirius. Which is how Voldemort knew how to tempt Harry into the DOM, but there was no way that he could have known that it would lead to Sirius' death.
He could have beem, he did lie about not getting the DADA post - he did get it... I think that Dumbledore gave him the job after he healed him.

He could have beem, he did lie about not getting the DADA post - he did get it... I think that Dumbledore gave him the job after he healed him. I wouldn't be too sure about that. It seems reasonable to think that Dumbledore gave him the DADA job only after getting Slughorn as replacement for the Potions post.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. It seems reasonable to think that Dumbledore gave him the DADA job only after getting Slughorn as replacement for the Potions post.
I think that was the reason. Dumbledore needed Slughorn to be at Hogwarts so that Harry would be able to retrieve the correct memory. Dumbledore knew that Slughorn was adamant to go back to Hogwarts and it would be difficult enough to convince him to teach there in the first place and it would have been more difficult to achieve that if Slughorn was supposed to teach DADA instead of his former subject Potions. Thus Snape had to get a new post and conveniently enough Snape´s favourite subject DADA was vacant. No persuasion necessary.

He also claims partial responsibility for Sirius' death. He did tell Voldemort about Harrys' love for Sirius. Which is how Voldemort knew how to tempt Harry into the DOM, but there was no way that he could have known that it would lead to Sirius' death.
No - Snape didn' tell Voldemort about Harry and Sirius ~ Kreacher ran away from home when Sirius told him to "Get Out." Dumbledore told Harry after the DoM that that Kreacher had run to Narcissa Malfoy, the only Black left whom he respected, and then the Malfoys told Voldemort.

Lucius may have already known about the Harry-Sirius connection anyway, because Sirius the dog followed Harry to the train, and then ran alongside. Draco made a comment about "dogs" on the train, and then Harry and Hermione tried to warn Sirius that he has been seen. Later, at Christmas, Snape confirmed that Lucius Malfoy saw Sirius as a dog animagus and recognized him because Peter had told the DEs what he looked like.

I think that was the reason. Dumbledore needed Slughorn to be at Hogwarts so that Harry would be able to retrieve the correct memory. Dumbledore knew that Slughorn was adamant to go back to Hogwarts and it would be difficult enough to convince him to teach there in the first place and it would have been more difficult to achieve that if Slughorn was supposed to teach DADA instead of his former subject Potions. Thus Snape had to get a new post and conveniently enough Snape´s favourite subject DADA was vacant. No persuasion necessary.

Yep. Slughorn was needed, and Snape was there, willing to take on DADA.

Grim reaper, Dumbledore might prefer to risk his life rather than someone elses, but that was not his choice.
The fact that Dumbledore formed the Order Of The Phoenix, and openly resisted Voldemorts' rise to power, is a clear indication that he was already risking his own life to save others, as opposing Voldemort is a pretty good way to get yourself killed.
He was presented with a prophecy. His choice is either to stick it in its glass ball and leave it gathering dust in the ministry, or release it.
Placing the prophesy in an orb, and leaving it in the Ministry is exactly what he did. That part we know for sure, as the orb was in the DOM. And as it turns out, it was pretty safe there. There's no evidence what-so-ever, that Dumbledore told anyone but Harry any part of the prophecy.
He does not have the choice to rewrite it, except in so far as he can control how much is released. It is a case, as JKR is fond of saying, of making choices.
As far as I know, no-one here has suggested that Dumbledore rewrote the prophecy. And yes, he did have the choice whether, or not, to divulge the prophecy to others, and he chose not to. Releasing anything said in the prophecy, could only threaten the life of the child it referred to, and the woman who made the prophecy. And as the prophecy clearly states that this child would be the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord, it wouldn't make much sense to send the Dark Lord after him.
Dumbledore keeps going on about how our choices define us. Maybe the issue of making choices was weighing rather heavily on his conscience. I did get the feeling he seemed a bit depressed at the end of OOP.
He was a bit depressed at the end of OOTP, because the choice to keep Harry in the dark about the prophecy, and his destiny, ultimately led to Sirius' death. Which Dumbledore takes responsibility for himself.
More, we have another example where Dumbledore had to make such a choice. In HBP Dumbledore clearly knew that Draco was up to no good in the school. Two students were nearly killed, but Dumbledore felt it better to do nothing and let Draco continue. He deliberately conspicuously left the castle to allow Draco to launch a full scale battle inside the castle. Lots of the children could have been killed. It was a calculated risk of their lives.
Okay, no offense, but here you're almost completely wrong.

1. Draco was up to no good, but he was trying to kill Dumbledore. So with Dumbledore out of the castle, Draco was less likely to hurt any of the other students.
2. And Dumbledore did nothing about Draco, because if Voldemort found out that Draco had been caught, he would consider his mission a failure, and kill his family. Dumbledore had to wait until Draco made his move, before he could even talk to him about it, and offer to hide him, and his family. In order for it to work, it had to look like Draco died in his attempt.
3. Snape was still in the castle that night, and was fully aware that Draco was trying to kill Dumbledore. And Dumbledore had members of the Order stationed in the castle for added protection. As well as increased security measures to keep people out of the castle.
4. Dumbledore had no way of knowing what Draco was planning, as he told no-one what he was up to, not even Snape. There was no way he could have known that Draco had figured out a way to get Death Eaters into the castle. So as far as he knew, his security measures were more than enough.

As far as I see it, under-estimating Draco was one of Dumbledores' biggest mistakes. But it was just a mistake, he didn't choose to ignore the threat, he thought that he had all his bases covered. It was an error in judgement.
And yes, this prophecy does seem to have been directed specifically to Dumbledore. If a prophecy demon could wait until he had Dumbledore's attention, then presumably he could also wait for a moment when Snape was listening. But by that logic, the demon intended Dumbledore to get the full message and snape only half?
Yes, Dumbledore was intended to hear all of the prophecy, while Snape was meant to hear only part of it. What you refer to as a prophecy "Demon", I prefer to think of as "Divine Intervention". A "Demon", as far as I'm concerned, is evil, and up to no good. While clearly, who-ever (JKR), or whatever, brought Dumbledore, trelawney, and Snape together at the same place, and the same time, clearly intended the prophecy to help the good side. Otherwise, Snape would have heard the whole prophecy, and Dumbledore only half.
and I know that someone happening to overhear something is a tried and tested literary device which appears in many many books.
I think that the prophecy could best be described as a "Deus Ex Machina" (it's Latin, look it up at Wikipedia.org)

But these books are rather unusual, and I really do think we are being invited to spot the deliberate mistakes amongst the rest. I think everyone here agrees on that, and it is why we are here.
Well, I don't agree, I don't think that JKR has made any "deliberate" mistakes, as mistakes, are just that "mistakes". they're unintentional accidents. And personally, I'm here to discuss theories about what has, and what will, happen in these books.
I had considered the possibility that the whole thing was a put up job, that with some bit of magic Dumbledore might have caused trelawney to have a prophecy, just when Snape was listening.
Are you really suggesting that Dumbledore concocted the prophecy, then sent Snape to tell part of it to Voldemort, in order to send him after an innocent child, and his parents, just to gain a temporary distraction from Voldemorts reign of terror? Because, as far as Dumbledore knew, it would have been "Temporary". There was no way he could have known that that curse would back-fire, and strike down Voldemort instead, it had never happened before. If Dumbledore had made the whole thing up, he'd be sacrificing a child, and his family, just to slow Voldemort down. That would, basically, make Dumbledore a child-murder. Do you really think that's the way JKR's going to take this story?
My own starting point for this was the discrepancy between trelaney's recollection of events and what Dumbledore tells harry. There is clearly an anomaly that suggests Snape ought to have heard all the prophecy if he was not captured by Aberforth untill after trelawney had finished prophecying, which is essentially what she said. Clearly Dumbledore lied to Harry about the exact details.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I once started a thread on this same topic called: "How did Trelawney know?". It's here:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=92776

The general consensus of the posters (which I agree with) was that Snape was caught half way through the prophecy just as Dumbledore said. But in the time that it took for Aberforth to catch him, and confront him with what he was doing there, Trelawney had time to complete the rest, and was just waking up as Aberforth brought Snape through the door. So Dumbledore wasn't "clearly" lying. It could have happened exactly as he said.

The only time in these books, that we know of, that Dumbledore lied, was in OOTP. During his duel with Voldemort, Dumbledore tells him that the reason he wasn't trying to kill him, was that "There are other ways of destroying a man." But in one of her interviews, JKR tells us that it wasn't the real reason that Dumbledore held back. I have my own theory about that, but this isn't the place for it. But, as I said, that's the only time we know of for sure that Dumbledore lied.

Whew, I feel like I just gave birth!......:lol:

Placing the prophesy in an orb, and leaving it in the Ministry is exactly what he did. That part we know for sure, as the orb was in the DOM. And as it turns out, it was pretty safe there. There's no evidence what-so-ever, that Dumbledore told anyone but Harry any part of the prophecy.
I thought JKR told us that the Ministry has a way of detecting prophecies, much like the way they detect magic in general, and record them there. I'm next to certain that Dumbledore did NOT place the prophecy in the orb and leave it in the Ministry. The Ministry had LOTS of other prophecies in there. It seemed to me to be all of them.

Yes, Dumbledore was intended to hear all of the prophecy, while Snape was meant to hear only part of it. What you refer to as a prophecy "Demon", I prefer to think of as "Divine Intervention". A "Demon", as far as I'm concerned, is evil, and up to no good. While clearly, who-ever (JKR), or whatever, brought Dumbledore, trelawney, and Snape together at the same place, and the same time, clearly intended the prophecy to help the good side. Otherwise, Snape would have heard the whole prophecy, and Dumbledore only half.
I'm not sure why we're discussing the intent behind the prophecy, because I'm not convinced there is any intent behind it. Incidentally, if Snape had heard any more or less of the prophecy, it wouldn't have come true.

The only time in these books, that we know of, that Dumbledore lied, was in OOTP. During his duel with Voldemort, Dumbledore tells him that the reason he wasn't trying to kill him, was that "There are other ways of destroying a man." But in one of her interviews, JKR tells us that it wasn't the real reason that Dumbledore held back. I have my own theory about that, but this isn't the place for it. But, as I said, that's the only time we know of for sure that Dumbledore lied.
I think JKR makes a point of not having Dumbledore lie, but occasionally having him not tell the whole truth. It's a fine distinction, but I wouldn't actually call the comment you cited a lie. What he said was true, it's just that there was more to it.

Possible.

1. I believe he didn't give the full prophecy to Voldemort.
2. He didn't capture Harry when he was on the run in HBP, that to me shows he's not totally LV's man. After all, all the DE's and a werewolf shouldn't have a problem taking away a 16 year old with them, archnemesis of their boss, no less.
3. Dumbledore told Draco he knew Draco was the one behind the attacks and that he, Dumbledore, was the target. I imagine an irritated/angry Voldemort will want a report from Draco what happened, and why he failed. One way or another, he will get this info. Next, he won't have very long to think where Dumbledore got those two bits of info. Bye bye Snape.

I agree with you on the second point. I certainly don't think it is enough evidence to say that Snape is good, however, there isn't really a reason why Snape wouldn't snatch up Harry when he had the chance. Having thought about it, there is not a reason (any that we really know). If Snape was in fact evil, and assuming he knew about the Horcruxes, why would he want to give Harry the chance the destroy them?

and assuming he knew about the Horcruxes
Um... that's not a safe assumption at all. He almost certainly does not know about the Horcruxes... Dumbledore basically tells Harry as much.

I thought JKR told us that the Ministry has a way of detecting prophecies, much like the way they detect magic in general, and record them there. I'm next to certain that Dumbledore did NOT place the prophecy in the orb and leave it in the Ministry. The Ministry had LOTS of other prophecies in there. It seemed to me to be all of them.

You're probably right, I haven't read that quote from JKR. But Dumbledore would still have to extract the prophecy from his own memory, and give it to the Ministry, wouldn't he? Or does the prophecy automatically go into an orb at the Ministry?


I'm not sure why we're discussing the intent behind the prophecy, because I'm not convinced there is any intent behind it. Incidentally, if Snape had heard any more or less of the prophecy, it wouldn't have come true.

If anything, the intent behind the prophecy was JKRs'. As it was the reason that Voldemort went after Harry. Dumbledore suggest, in HBP, that the prophecy was only true, because Voldemort believed it so. Whether he was right, or not, is redundant, because Voldemort Did believe it. The prophecy was the catalyst behind the entire plot of this story. As JKR intended.

I think JKR makes a point of not having Dumbledore lie, but occasionally having him not tell the whole truth. It's a fine distinction, but I wouldn't actually call the comment you cited a lie. What he said was true, it's just that there was more to it.

I agree with you. Some people would call it a "lie of Omission", to deliberately leave things out, but I've never agreed with this view. But as for my comment, JKR had this to say at the Edinburgh Book Festival:
why Dumbledore did not kill or try to kill Voldemort in the scene in the ministry. I know that I am giving a lot away to people who have not read the book. Although Dumbledore gives a kind of reason to Voldemort, it is not the real reason.
If the reason Dumbledore gave Voldemort for holding back wasn't the "real" reason, wouldn't that qualify as a lie?

Anyway, Ive gotten way off-topic, I'll stop now....:D

Um... that's not a safe assumption at all. He almost certainly does not know about the Horcruxes... Dumbledore basically tells Harry as much.

Yeah sorry ignore that...I was being thick and I've just flipped through certain sections I've snipped off about the Horcruxes in HBP and I'm thoroughly embarassed with what I said. :whistle:
But, regardless, unless Voldemort gave them a specific order not to take Harry to him...then I don't see why Snape wouldn't have if he was in fact on V's side because Harry was alone, and assuming (I don't want to make an *** out of u and me again :blush: but I will anyways) that Snape knew Harry was under the invisibility cloak, regarding the two brooms, then he would have the perfect opportunity to take him.

But, regardless, unless Voldemort gave them a specific order not to take Harry to him...then I don't see why Snape wouldn't have if he was in fact on V's side because Harry was alone, and assuming (I don't want to make an *** out of u and me again :blush: but I will anyways) that Snape knew Harry was under the invisibility cloak, regarding the two brooms, then he would have the perfect opportunity to take him.
It wouldn't really surprise me if Voldemort DID give such an order. Remember in the graveyard scene, when he orders the DEs not to do anything? He wants it to be clear that HE is more powerful than Harry. He wants the DEs to believe that no one, not even the famous, pesky child who put him out of commission for over a decade, can stand up to Voldemort and live. If Snape killed Dumbledore and then brought Harry to Voldemort to die, wouldn't it look a lot like Snape was more powerful than Voldemort? I don't think Voldemort would want that at all. He needs to do it all by himself, both for the perception and for his own gratification.

As far as I see it, under-estimating Draco was one of Dumbledores' biggest mistakes. This is interesting because isn't this what Dumbledore said about Voldemort, that he would never think that an underage wizard could get into the Cave. Now Dumbledore is guilty of the same thing. Just an observation!

I think he's playing the double agent mostly to try to keep his options open (obviously that kinda went south what with Dumbledore's murder and all), but I believe he is leaning toward the good side, and has been since the night he heard the prophecy.

I believe he heard the full prophecy, but only told Voldemort the first half. And that's Dumbledore's "Iron-clad Reason". What do we know about the night of the prophecy:

1. Trelawny and Dumbledore were upstairs in a private room
2. Dumbledore was about to leave when Trelawny started to make her prophecy
3. Snape is thrown into the room by Aberforth and it is exposed that he was eavesdropping
4. Trelawny DOES NOT know she made the prophecy, but she DOES know Snape burst in

Therefore, Snape either burst in before the prophecy (unlikely, as someone had to tell Voldy about it), or after Trelawney had returned to her normal state of conciousness. I don't see how it could be anything else but the second scenario (unless someone else told Voldy about the prophecy, but the only other two who heard it were Albus and Aberforth).

So, concluding that Snape did hear the whole prophecy, I believe he was taken back to Albus' office, where he found that even though we was Albus' enemy, he was still treated with respect, and this threw the differences between Dumbledore and Voldemort into sharp relief. Voldemort treats his allies much worse than Dumbledore treats his enemies. Snape saw this and, I believe, at that moment, he decided he was "good". He then used his superb Occlumency skills and told Voldy only the first half of the prophecy, bringing about the defeat (for the time being) of the most evil wizard of all time. And there was much rejoicing.

Now, he could have changed his mind about being good since then, but seeing as how it's generally agreed that he's drawn to places where he can get power AND respect, and considering how much of a stickler he is when it comes to people respecting him (for instance, he flips out when Harry doesn't call him "sir"), I think it's safe to say that he wants to be on the side where he is respected (ie Dumbledore's side).

That, my friends, shows not only that Snape is pretty firmly on the good side, but also why he was trusted by Dumbledore.

It wouldn't really surprise me if Voldemort DID give such an order. Remember in the graveyard scene, when he orders the DEs not to do anything? He wants it to be clear that HE is more powerful than Harry. He wants the DEs to believe that no one, not even the famous, pesky child who put him out of commission for over a decade, can stand up to Voldemort and live. If Snape killed Dumbledore and then brought Harry to Voldemort to die, wouldn't it look a lot like Snape was more powerful than Voldemort? I don't think Voldemort would want that at all. He needs to do it all by himself, both for the perception and for his own gratification.

Yeah I get what you mean. Voldemort is so in love with his power that he wouldn't want it to seem like anyone is moreso than him. And then there's this boy that keeps defeating him; every time he has the chance to end it, the only thing standing in his way, and now more than anything, as you said, he would want the gratification of doing it himself; he probably needs to prove it to himself. And if Snape is capable of getting a hold of him and bringing him, weak, to Voldemort, then what message does that send?
And now that Voldemort has a body, it would be no excuse that he was incapable of bringing Harry himself (as in GoF).
I agree....I don't think this is enough proof that Snape is working for Voldemort; Voldemort would have given that order regardless, because Snape has been playing as a double-agent for a long time now whether he is good or not.

No - Snape didn' tell Voldemort about Harry and Sirius ~ Kreacher ran away from home when Sirius told him to "Get Out." Dumbledore told Harry after the DoM that that Kreacher had run to Narcissa Malfoy, the only Black left whom he respected, and then the Malfoys told Voldemort.



Your right, I totally forgot that part. But this only helps the point that I tried to make earlier. Snapes boast about giving information that led to the deaths of Emmeline Vance, and Sirius, could have been a lie. As he didn't really tell Voldemort anything that could have led Sirius to the MOM. As I said before, Bellatrix probably wouldn't check the things that Snape said with Voldemort, as Narcissa wasn't supposed to tell anyone about his plan for Draco. They weren't supposed to be there. He may have told Voldemort some information about Vance, but that doesn't necessarily mean it led to her death.

Of course, by now, Voldemort does know that Narcissa, and Bellatrix were there, because Peter saw them. And Narcissa did ask Snape for his help before he chased Wormtail away.

This is interesting because isn't this what Dumbledore said about Voldemort, that he would never think that an underage wizard could get into the Cave. Now Dumbledore is guilty of the same thing. Just an observation!


Good catch!......:tu:

I believe he heard the full prophecy, but only told Voldemort the first half. And that's Dumbledore's "Iron-clad Reason".
That contradicts several things Dumbledore tells Harry.
1) That the DE in question (before we/Harry knew it was Snape) only heard the first half. (In OotP, when he's telling Harry about the prophecy)
2) Snape really was a Death Eater on prophecy night, and told Voldemort what he knew. (In HBP, after Trelawney reveals that it was Snape)
3) Only Dumbledore and Harry know the full contents of the prophecy. (In HBP, when they're outside the Burrow)

Do you really want to argue that Albus Dumbledore's a big fat liar?

I think he's playing the double agent mostly to try to keep his options open (obviously that kinda went south what with Dumbledore's murder and all), but I believe he is leaning toward the good side, and has been since the night he heard the prophecy.

I believe he heard the full prophecy, but only told Voldemort the first half. And that's Dumbledore's "Iron-clad Reason". What do we know about the night of the prophecy:

1. Trelawny and Dumbledore were upstairs in a private room
2. Dumbledore was about to leave when Trelawny started to make her prophecy
3. Snape is thrown into the room by Aberforth and it is exposed that he was eavesdropping
4. Trelawny DOES NOT know she made the prophecy, but she DOES know Snape burst in

Therefore, Snape either burst in before the prophecy (unlikely, as someone had to tell Voldy about it), or after Trelawney had returned to her normal state of conciousness. I don't see how it could be anything else but the second scenario (unless someone else told Voldy about the prophecy, but the only other two who heard it were Albus and Aberforth).

So, concluding that Snape did hear the whole prophecy, I believe he was taken back to Albus' office, where he found that even though we was Albus' enemy, he was still treated with respect, and this threw the differences between Dumbledore and Voldemort into sharp relief. Voldemort treats his allies much worse than Dumbledore treats his enemies. Snape saw this and, I believe, at that moment, he decided he was "good". He then used his superb Occlumency skills and told Voldy only the first half of the prophecy, bringing about the defeat (for the time being) of the most evil wizard of all time. And there was much rejoicing.

Now, he could have changed his mind about being good since then, but seeing as how it's generally agreed that he's drawn to places where he can get power AND respect, and considering how much of a stickler he is when it comes to people respecting him (for instance, he flips out when Harry doesn't call him "sir"), I think it's safe to say that he wants to be on the side where he is respected (ie Dumbledore's side).

That, my friends, shows not only that Snape is pretty firmly on the good side, but also why he was trusted by Dumbledore.
I think that over the years he most likely realized that the place where he would most likely get any respect [at all] would be on Dumbledore's side ;).

The fact that Snape told Voldemort the first part of the prophecy is irrelevent. He was still working for Voldemort and could have been blackmailed, or Imperiused; we do not know. The Important thing is that he did join Dumbledore's side after the death of Lily and James.

The best piece of evidence I see toward good is in OoTP. Snape could have not alerted the Order, and the sextet would have died. (After giving the prophecy over) He could then have lied that he didn't realize they had gone. But he did not do that, he alerted the Order.

The fact that Snape told Voldemort the first part of the prophecy is irrelevent. He was still working for Voldemort and could have been blackmailed, or Imperiused; we do not know. The Important thing is that he did join Dumbledore's side after the death of Lily and James.
Actually, Dumbledore believes it was before the death of Lily and James, as indicated by his testimony at Karkaroff's hearing in the Pensieve scene of GoF:

"I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."
To me this seems another indication that Snape is good. He did not switch sides after Voldemort was vaporized, but while Voldemort was still at the height of his powers. This suggests he wasn't merely switching to the winning side to improve his position, but had a sincere change of heart.

This is just a theory so feel free to shoot it down. At the beggining of HBP when "Snape" makes the unbreakable vow, what if that was dumbledore [polyjuice potion, his hand twitches slightly] hence the black hand. Now having done that dumbledore has to help draco. He knows there is a curse on the dada job, so he fills snape in as to what has happened and they together create a plan to get snape as close to voldmorte with absolutly no doubtn as to which side he is on. The ring may just be a cover up for the hand, when dumbledore seems to plead with severus he may have been pleading with him to actually do it, by dumbledore "giving" snape the dada job, it was predetermined he was to leave after the school year. If draco's mission was to kill dumbledore and going by my theory that snape was dumbledore at the beginning of HBP then dumbledore had to bite the dust anyhow. He blatantly helped draco by stunning harry and completed the vow by having snape finish him off [snape screaming "never call me a coward", could possibly have completly different meaning, he may have been in pain b/c of it] sorry about the rambling......thoughts?

At the beggining of HBP when "Snape" makes the unbreakable vow, what if that was dumbledore [polyjuice potion, his hand twitches slightly] hence the black hand. Now having done that dumbledore has to help draco.

This is a very interesting theory, which I don't believe myself but find quite elegant. There was a thread dedicated to discussing it which went into three versions before it was closed by the mods-they felt everything pro and con had already been said and there was no need for it any more. Anyway, the archived threads are still around if you are interested in looking at them. Version 1 is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=67874&highlight=impersonated).

Originally Posted by Idabomb333
It wouldn't really surprise me if Voldemort DID give such an order. Remember in the graveyard scene, when he orders the DEs not to do anything? He wants it to be clear that HE is more powerful than Harry. He wants the DEs to believe that no one, not even the famous, pesky child who put him out of commission for over a decade, can stand up to Voldemort and live. If Snape killed Dumbledore and then brought Harry to Voldemort to die, wouldn't it look a lot like Snape was more powerful than Voldemort? I don't think Voldemort would want that at all. He needs to do it all by himself, both for the perception and for his own gratification.
Yeah I get what you mean. Voldemort is so in love with his power that he wouldn't want it to seem like anyone is moreso than him. And then there's this boy that keeps defeating him; every time he has the chance to end it, the only thing standing in his way, and now more than anything, as you said, he would want the gratification of doing it himself; he probably needs to prove it to himself. And if Snape is capable of getting a hold of him and bringing him, weak, to Voldemort, then what message does that send?
And now that Voldemort has a body, it would be no excuse that he was incapable of bringing Harry himself (as in GoF).
I agree....I don't think this is enough proof that Snape is working for Voldemort; Voldemort would have given that order regardless, because Snape has been playing as a double-agent for a long time now whether he is good or not.

Just because Snape captures Harry and brings him to Voldemort does not mean that Harry will be weak. I mean he came to him in the graveyard after having been running around in a maze for a lot of the day, fighting vines and whatever else. Plus, once he got to the graveyard, he was put through the ritual of bringing Voldemort back. I think that would weaken someone pretty good? I can believe that Voldemort may have given an order not to harm Harry, but I find it rather odd that he would tell them that, given the opportunity, they are not to even capture him. Voldemort simply wants his DEs to see him defeat Harry. I think a part of his "rule" over them is fear of his power. There can be no question of that. So, they could bring him to their master. I just don't buy that Voldemort would have said to leave him free and clear.

I'm afraid that Voldemort's motives for his instructions about Harry are a bit off topic.:)

On the other hand, asking wether Snape only followed given instructions or had his own reasons for protecting Harry during the Hogwarts battle, is indeed very much on topic here.

I personally think that Snape did to much damage already to ever come back to the good side. He killed Dumbledore. And no teacher would probably ever want to see his face again. I dont think hes was trying to protect harry at all. I think on some levels hes afraid of Harry. Knowone else has escaped the Dark Lord five times and thats something to be proud of. Snape couldnt do it.

The only way he could come back and rejoin the "official" good side is if it comes out that Dumbledore said he should kill him, but I don't think Snape's all bad. Noone will want to accept that he's good, but I suspect he might be. Or at least be helpful in some way.

When I first read "Flight of the Prince" in HBP, the first thing that I thought while Harry was facing off with Snape was, "Snape's telling Harry exactly what he's doing wrong". Now if Snape is evil, he may have thought that it didn't matter if he told Harry, because Harry is too mediocre to learn occlumency. And besides, he'll never be a match for Voldemort. But, I don't think so. I believe that Snape was trying to teach Harry, by example, that if he didn't learn occlumency, he wouldn't stand a chance against Voldemort.

And when Snape stopped the Death Eater from hurting Harry, I became even more convinced that he's on the good side. If he were really just obeying Voldemort's orders, he still could have stunned Harry, and taken him. As I'm sure has been said before. Voldemort had just used someone else to kill Dumbledore, I'm sure that it wouldn't bother him at all if someone else brought him Harry. In fact, if Snape were evil, he could have skipped the whole duel, and stunned Harry right off the bat.

When I first read "Flight of the Prince" in HBP, the first thing that I thought while Harry was facing off with Snape was, "Snape's telling Harry exactly what he's doing wrong". Now if Snape is evil, he may have thought that it didn't matter if he told Harry, because Harry is too mediocre to learn occlumency. And besides, he'll never be a match for Voldemort. But, I don't think so. I believe that Snape was trying to teach Harry, by example, that if he didn't learn occlumency, he wouldn't stand a chance against Voldemort.

And when Snape stopped the Death Eater from hurting Harry, I became even more convinced that he's on the good side. If he were really just obeying Voldemort's orders, he still could have stunned Harry, and taken him. As I'm sure has been said before. Voldemort had just used someone else to kill Dumbledore, I'm sure that it wouldn't bother him at all if someone else brought him Harry. In fact, if Snape were evil, he could have skipped the whole duel, and stunned Harry right off the bat.

Exactly if Snape was bad why would he stop for that pleasant duel and chat with Harry why not just stun him and get it over with?

Exactly if Snape was bad why would he stop for that pleasant duel and chat with Harry why not just stun him and get it over with?If he is so good why did he murder Dumbledore?

If he is so good why did he murder Dumbledore?


Did he, or was it pre-arranged between the two of them? We've been bouncing back, and forth between these two scenarios since the book came out. And we'll probably continue until JKR answers the question, one way, or another.

If he is so good why did he murder Dumbledore?


Because he had no other choice that would help the Order; this whole war is like a game of chess if you have to sacrifice a piece or two to get to the king then so be it.

That contradicts several things Dumbledore tells Harry.
1) That the DE in question (before we/Harry knew it was Snape) only heard the first half. (In OotP, when he's telling Harry about the prophecy)
2) Snape really was a Death Eater on prophecy night, and told Voldemort what he knew. (In HBP, after Trelawney reveals that it was Snape)
3) Only Dumbledore and Harry know the full contents of the prophecy. (In HBP, when they're outside the Burrow)

Do you really want to argue that Albus Dumbledore's a big fat liar?I completely agree.

Plus, for what reason in the world would Snape tell Voldemort only the first part of the Prophecy if the knew the whole text? This makes not sense to me, not on the "Snape is evil" premise and even less under the "Snape is good" premise. If Snape swtiched to the good side on the night of the Prophecy he wouldn´t have told Voldemort of the Prophecy at all.

Your right, I totally forgot that part. But this only helps the point that I tried to make earlier. Snapes boast about giving information that led to the deaths of Emmeline Vance, and Sirius, could have been a lie. As he didn't really tell Voldemort anything that could have led Sirius to the MOM. As I said before, Bellatrix probably wouldn't check the things that Snape said with Voldemort, as Narcissa wasn't supposed to tell anyone about his plan for Draco. They weren't supposed to be there. He may have told Voldemort some information about Vance, but that doesn't necessarily mean it led to her death.Exactly. Nevertheless, I´m not sure Bellatrix wouldn´t be able to check facts with Voldemort. You make a very good point in that Narcissa wasn´t supposed to reveal the plan and that Voldemort under no circumstances should come to know of this betrayal. But Bellatrix could just have pretended that she - the Dark Lord´s most loyal servant - was suspicious of Snape and went to question him. Maybe the Dark Lord would have appreciated that. On the other hand, Voldemort could have been irate that Bellatrix didn´t trust his - Voldemort´s - own assessment.

I have said that several times before, pretty much everything Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa at Spinner´s End was most probably a lie to maintain his cover. He is too clever to tell anything which could be checked with Voldemort. Everything he relates to the sisters were things that happened at Hogwarts, between him and Harry, between him and Dumbledore and between him and someone who is already dead by now(Quirell, Sirus). No chance for Voldemort to check these facts.

Because he had no other choice that would help the Order; this whole war is like a game of chess if you have to sacrifice a piece or two to get to the king then so be it.I have trouble seeing Churchill or Eisenhower or Roosevelt willing to die for a spy. Bush surely wouldn't.

And when Snape stopped the Death Eater from hurting Harry, I became even more convinced that he's on the good side. If he were really just obeying Voldemort's orders, he still could have stunned Harry, and taken him. As I'm sure has been said before. Voldemort had just used someone else to kill Dumbledore, I'm sure that it wouldn't bother him at all if someone else brought him Harry. In fact, if Snape were evil, he could have skipped the whole duel, and stunned Harry right off the bat.
If Snape acted contrary to how Voldemort would want him to act, the other Death Eaters would at least call him on it, if not actually take Harry anyway. He said Voldemort's orders were to leave Harry, and the other DEs certainly seemed to agree.

I don't actually think that's the only reason Snape protected Harry, I think he's good. I'm just completely convinced that what he did in Flight of the Prince was totally compatible with Voldemort's orders because the OTHER DEs would have no reason to leave Harry unless they were so ordered.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I have trouble seeing Churchill or Eisenhower or Roosevelt willing to die for a spy. Bush surely wouldn't.
First of all, good one. I'm always in favor of jabs against Bush.

There are at least a couple very possible big distinctions between what we're saying Dumbledore did and the basic idea of Churchill or Eisenhower dying to save a spy.
1) Voldemort, unlike Hitler, is immortal, with only one person holding the power to vanquish him.
2) Dumbledore has pretty much the one main spy, who is very likely to have an incredibly important role in bringing down Voldemort. As far as I know, there was no single spy in World War 2 worth near as much to the cause as good Snape would be for the Order and Harry.
3) World War 2 was fought with armies. This is more of a special ops mission than an invasion, because if Voldemort is defeated, there's not much left. Chess is like this too. Take the king, and the game's over even if the losing side has a lot more pieces left.
4) Dumbledore, a fictional character, is more noble than Churchill or Eisenhower.
5) At least part of the justification for the vow and for Snape murdering Dumbledore was to protect other people, especially Draco. They also wanted to end the fight ASAP and get all the DEs out of Hogwarts.
6) Dumbledore was definitely going to die on the tower. If Snape hadn't killed him, one of the other DEs would have.

Ronjalina et al:
Why do people still keep saying that Snape telling Voldemort the prophecy was 'bad'? The deaths of Harry's family were unfortunate, but Voldemort hearing what he did helped the good guys. If Snape really was a death eater then he was such a bad one that his actions lead to the death of Voldemorts body, and may soon lead to the death of his new body and soul too. This is an important point, what snape actually did helped the good guys.

Would I call Dumnledore a big fat liar? No, I would call him a careful, measured liar. I am not sure that Dumbledore has ever even said that lying is a bad thing. I think it also true that Dumbledore tends to lie by omission rather than comission, but for our purposes that really does not make a lot of difference. For example, in book one he failed to mention to harry that his new teacher, Snape, managed to set Voldemort upon Harry's parents, leading to their deaths. I think Dumbledore was very wise not to drop that into the conversation at that time. Maybe he was not quite so wize in putting off mentioning it until he was forced to it, but that is one of the difficult decisions which Dumbledore admits he left too late.

I think a good point is made about why Snape did not kidnap Harry and take him with him. Admittedly it would have totally ruined book 7 if Harry was killed by Voldemort at the end of book 6, but we need a reason which makes since in terms of the plot. I find the idea that Voldemort might refuse to allow his followers to help him as truly daft. What is the point of having followers if they are never allowed to do anything? I have seen explanations why Snape might have been ordered not to kill harry, but taking absolutely no action against him is really taking this too far. Snape's lack of harm to harry has to be taken as evidence that he is a good guy.

Dumbeldore's death: This has been long discussd elsewhere, but either you believe it was ultimate proof Snape was on the bad side, or you believe it was a complex plot agreed between Dumbledore and Snape. I believe it was indeed a conspiracy, with the basis that Dumbledore was already mortally wounded, so they agreed to make the best use of his inevitable death.

Grimreapster, we have a few points upon which we disagree. We seem to interpret very much of the books rather differently.

Someone mentioned it, but Dumbledore only formed the order of the phoenix after the prophecy, specifically to protect those who might be referred to in the prophecy.

You and I are writting from different points of view. You are presupposing that Dumbledores 'official' statements about how events happened are true.I am not. In my posts I am essentially assuming that Dumbledore may have lied about events, perhaps I did not make that clear. So, given that Dumbledore has not told us the truth, we have to consider the different possibilities of what might have happened which fits the facts, such as we know them.
If this is true, then Dumbledore, Snape and Aberforth would all be telling the same story, and would all lie to support it.

If Snape acted contrary to how Voldemort would want him to act, the other Death Eaters would at least call him on it, if not actually take Harry anyway. He said Voldemort's orders were to leave Harry, and the other DEs certainly seemed to agree.

I don't actually think that's the only reason Snape protected Harry, I think he's good. I'm just completely convinced that what he did in Flight of the Prince was totally compatible with Voldemort's orders because the OTHER DEs would have no reason to leave Harry unless they were so ordered.


But was Snape telling the Death Eaters the truth about their orders? From the moment that Snape appeared on the tower, the Death Eaters seemed to defer to him. None of them tried to stop him from killing Dumbledore, even though it was supposed to be Draco's job. In fact one of them did stop Greyback from just that before Snape arrived. To me it seemed as if they considered him their superior. Voldemort may have said nothing about leaving Harry; but the Death Eaters would believe Snape if he claimed it was their orders.

After witnessing Snape kill Dumbledore, they'd probably believe just about anything he said. Now that I think of it, why would Voldemort tell them to leave Harry alone? He had no way of knowing that Harry would be present on that tower when Draco made his move. No-one knew that Harry was with Dumbledore, as he was wearing his invisibility cloak. And Voldemort couldn't have predicted that Harry would be with Dumbledore when he returned to the castle. Unless Voldemort suspected that Harry might just happen to show up before the Death Eaters made their escape. He does like to play the hero.

Why do people still keep saying that Snape telling Voldemort the prophecy was 'bad'? The deaths of Harry's family were unfortunate, but Voldemort hearing what he did helped the good guys.
I think it's inconceivable that Dumbledore would encourage/allow Snape to give Voldemort information that would lead him to try to kill the Potters, even if Dumbledore somehow knew that Voldemort would fall.

The fact remains that no one knew Lily would be able to protect Harry, bringing Voldemort down. It had never happened before, and there's no particular reason to believe that Dumbledore or Snape knew that the second half of the prophecy meant Voldemort would be Vapormort for 15 years.

Would I call Dumnledore a big fat liar? No, I would call him a careful, measured liar. I am not sure that Dumbledore has ever even said that lying is a bad thing.
Then I don't think we're going to agree on that point.

What is the point of having followers if they are never allowed to do anything? I have seen explanations why Snape might have been ordered not to kill harry, but taking absolutely no action against him is really taking this too far. Snape's lack of harm to harry has to be taken as evidence that he is a good guy.
Are the other DEs who were there also good guys?

Um... that's not a safe assumption at all. He almost certainly does not know about the Horcruxes... Dumbledore basically tells Harry as much.

He does? I don't remember reading anything on Snape knowing about horcruxes in HBP...it could be he guessed what caused the wound on DD's hand. (assuming DD didn't tell him what hurt his hand)

Also, LV doesn't have a problem with other people bringing Harry to him. CoS? GoF? I think Snape was bluffing on that.

Ronjalina et al:
Why do people still keep saying that Snape telling Voldemort the prophecy was 'bad'? The deaths of Harry's family were unfortunate, but Voldemort hearing what he did helped the good guys. I personally wouldn´t call the deaths of James and Lily unfortunate, I would call them tragic, cruel, needless and avertible (the latter if Voldemort hadn´t known of the part-prophecy). If you mean it helped the good guys because Voldemort lost his physical existence and became Vapormort I have to say that this outcome was completely unpredictable. Dumbledore an noone else could know that Voldemort would give Lily a chance to live and that by chosing to not step aside but save her son the blood-protection was set in motion. Noone could know that then the Avada Kedavra would backfire on Voldemort with leaving Harry unscathed apart from the scar on his forehead. If we assume Dumbledore wanted to use the prophecy he would have just risked the lifes of James, Lily and an innocent child.
If Snape really was a death eater then he was such a bad one that his actions lead to the death of Voldemorts body, and may soon lead to the death of his new body and soul too. This is an important point, what snape actually did helped the good guys.Again, noone could predict what happened at Godric´s Hollow.
Would I call Dumnledore a big fat liar? No, I would call him a careful, measured liar. I am not sure that Dumbledore has ever even said that lying is a bad thing. I think it also true that Dumbledore tends to lie by omission rather than comission, but for our purposes that really does not make a lot of difference. For example, in book one he failed to mention to harry that his new teacher, Snape, managed to set Voldemort upon Harry's parents, leading to their deaths. I think Dumbledore was very wise not to drop that into the conversation at that time. Maybe he was not quite so wize in putting off mentioning it until he was forced to it, but that is one of the difficult decisions which Dumbledore admits he left too late.Yes, Dumbledore omits things and he makes a mistake in not telling Harry earlier about the Prophecy. Dumbledore admits that himself. But Dumbledore is a man who stands by his actions and decision and takes responsibility. He even makes himself responsible for Sirius´death. If Dumbledore was responsible for the deaths of the Potters because he had misjudged the situation when using the prophecy he would have told Harry.

Dumbeldore's death: This has been long discussd elsewhere, but either you believe it was ultimate proof Snape was on the bad side, or you believe it was a complex plot agreed between Dumbledore and Snape. I believe it was indeed a conspiracy, with the basis that Dumbledore was already mortally wounded, so they agreed to make the best use of his inevitable death.I agree. That´s how I see it as well.

Grimreapster, we have a few points upon which we disagree. We seem to interpret very much of the books rather differently.This is not directed at me, but I think it applies to me as well since I pretty much agree with everything Grim_Reapster said.

But was Snape telling the Death Eaters the truth about their orders? From the moment that Snape appeared on the tower, the Death Eaters seemed to defer to him. None of them tried to stop him from killing Dumbledore, even though it was supposed to be Draco's job. In fact one of them did stop Greyback from just that before Snape arrived. To me it seemed as if they considered him their superior. Voldemort may have said nothing about leaving Harry; but the Death Eaters would believe Snape if he claimed it was their orders.
Interesting point, but it seems to me that they would know for sure, from Voldemort, whether it was a good idea to bring Harry Potter to him, don't you? I mean, it's one thing not to question Snape when he kills Dumbledore. They know Voldemort wants Dumbledore dead. I imagine it would strike them as very different for Snape to tell them they were ordered not to hurt Harry. In fact, I could be imagining this, but didn't he say something like "You know the Dark Lord's orders. The boy is his."?

He does? I don't remember reading anything on Snape knowing about horcruxes in HBP...it could be he guessed what caused the wound on DD's hand. (assuming Dumbledore didn't tell him what hurt his hand)

Also, Voldemort doesn't have a problem with other people bringing Harry to him. CoS? GoF? I think Snape was bluffing on that.

I don't think Snape was bluffing I think that Voldy would not have liked it if one of them had killed him however I do not think he would have objected to having one of them bring Harry to him or cause Harry a lot of pain.

but didn't he say something like "You know the Dark Lord's orders. The boy is his."?


He says

"Have you forgotten our orders?" Potter belongs to the Dark Lord-we are to leave him! Go! Go!"

I don't think Snape was bluffing I think that Voldy would not have liked it if one of them had killed him however I do not think he would have objected to having one of them bring Harry to him or cause Harry a lot of pain.
Remember that that applies to the other DEs too. If they thought they could bring Harry to Voldemort and it would please Voldemort, wouldn't they do it even if Snape said not to?

"Have you forgotten our orders?" Potter belongs to the Dark Lord-we are to leave him! Go! Go!"
Ah, thanks. It sure sounds to me like they know they are supposed to leave him at Hogwarts.

Quote:
"Have you forgotten our orders?" Potter belongs to the Dark Lord-we are to leave him! Go! Go!"

Ah, thanks. It sure sounds to me like they know they are supposed to leave him at Hogwarts.

I think Snape is on the good side, he leaves Harry where he is safe (well, safer. Nowhere is really safe)
Maybe when Dumbledore was saying "Severus, please..." on the tower he was telling him "Please save Harry." because he already knew that he was going to die. So Snape left Harry and didn't kill him. I dunno, I just think Dumbledore's death was kinda pre-arranged, it makes more sense if Snape is good. (well, on the good side at least. As a person he's not that great IMO.)

Ah, thanks. It sure sounds to me like they know they are supposed to leave him at Hogwarts.


Welcome ^_^
Well I'm not saying that they didn't because I believe they did, but what I'm mostly trying to say is that the DE was not trying to bring Harry to the DL he was just causing Harry a whole lot of pain, why would Voldy object to that? I think Snape was just trying to get them out of there as quick as possible.

Grimreapster, we have a few points upon which we disagree. We seem to interpret very much of the books rather differently.

Someone mentioned it, but Dumbledore only formed the order of the phoenix after the prophecy, specifically to protect those who might be referred to in the prophecy.

You and I are writting from different points of view. You are presupposing that Dumbledores 'official' statements about how events happened are true.I am not. In my posts I am essentially assuming that Dumbledore may have lied about events, perhaps I did not make that clear. So, given that Dumbledore has not told us the truth, we have to consider the different possibilities of what might have happened which fits the facts, such as we know them.
If this is true, then Dumbledore, Snape and Aberforth would all be telling the same story, and would all lie to support it.


You're right, the one thing that we do agree on, is that we disagree. But so far, has anyone agreed with you on this?

Where is it mentioned, in the books, that Dumbledore formed the Order Of The Phoenix after he heard the prophecy? I don't remember reading that.

And your right; I am working on the assumption that everything that Dumbledore has told Harry is the truth. In my opinion, everything that we've learned so far about Dumbledore's character; suggests that he wouldn't lie to Harry. Although he was clearly holding things back.

And yes, you've made yourself perfectly clear. Your suggesting the possibility that Dumbledore has been lying to Harry, and that he may have orchestrated the prophecy (or what Voldemort heard) to deliberately lead him on a wild goose chase; at the expense of a few innocent lives.

I can't agree with this, for the reasons that I've stated above. It doesn't fit with what JKR has taught us about Dumbledore's character. Unless she has been deliberately pulling the wool over our eyes for the last six books.

JKR has some responsibility to her millions of young fans. Most of whom look up to Dumbledore as a symbol of goodness, and wisdom. What kind of example would she be setting if he turned out to be a cold; manipulating; liar?
What kind of moral would that be for a childrens book?

Welcome ^_^
Well I'm not saying that they didn't because I believe they did, but what I'm mostly trying to say is that the DE was not trying to bring Harry to the DL he was just causing Harry a whole lot of pine, why would Voldy object to that? I think Snape was just trying to get them out of there as quick as possible.
Fair enough. I do think Snape was good and trying to get them out of there ASAP, but I just don't think that's the best evidence that Snape is good. The other DE did stop torturing Harry. If Voldemort's orders allowed them to torture Harry but leave him there, I tend to think the other DE would have ignored Snape.

I think it's reasonable to see Snape's actions in Flight of the Prince as more consistent with Snape being good, but I don't think there's any PROOF there that he's good. As I said in the previous version of the thread, I think the real proof is that he could have pretended he didn't know Harry went to the MoM in OotP, but instead he alerted the Order. There's no way Voldemort would want him to alert the Order and risk losing the prophecy. Snape would have gotten away with not alerting the Order (i.e. he could have lied to Dumbledore and Dumbledore would have believed him), so the fact that he alerted the Order and risked the loss of the prophecy for Voldemort cannot possibly be justified to Voldemort.

On the other hand, I think it's very reasonable to think that if the DEs go to Voldemort and say that Snape had Harry, but let him go and stopped the other DE from torturing Harry, Voldemort will not be angry at Snape. If Snape thought Voldemort would get angry about it, he would have acted differently, right? The other DEs are presumably going to report all of that night's events to Voldemort.

"Have you forgotten our orders?" Potter belongs to the Dark Lord-we are to leave him! Go! Go!"


Well clearly one Death Eater didn't know their orders, he was trying to hurt Harry. And Snape seemed to think that Harry was in danger, or he wouldn't have asked him if he'd forgotten the orders.

But it certainly appears he really did just forget the orders, like Greyback apparently forgot that Draco was supposed to be the one to kill Dumbledore.

But it certainly appears he really did just forget the orders, like Greyback apparently forgot that Draco was supposed to be the one to kill Dumbledore.


Yeah, you're right, he may have forgot. But Greyback had to be told twice to leave Dumbledore alone. He may have forgotten once, but his memory can't be that bad. I think that the Death Eaters were just so pumped up, that they were getting a bit reckless, carried away.

2) Dumbledore has pretty much the one main spy, who is very likely to have an incredibly important role in bringing down Voldemort. As far as I know, there was no single spy in World War 2 worth near as much to the cause as good Snape would be for the Order and Harry.You are correct in that the only spy named and talked about is Snape. But in PoA it was mentioned that Dumbledore had a number of spies. Now, I would think that he would still have a number of spies out there.

Ronjalina, I think exactly the same logic applies to Dumbledore explaining to Harry about Snape's part in Harry's parents death as would apply to him explaining about any part he himself might have played. Again, he would put it off. Indeed, Dumbledore does hesitate when Harry confronts him about this just as they are going off to the cave. I interpret the hesitation as Dumbledore figuring this is a very bad time for a complex explanation. Now, we never did get to hear whatever the full story might have been.

Sorry, Grimreapster but I am a bit behind in responding to some of these posts. Turn your back on quiet discussion and suddenly 3 pages go by. I will try to catch up:

I recognise the scenario that someone posted, that possibly Aberforth interrupted Snape on the stairs, causing him to miss the last part of the prophecy, then enter the room with Dumbledore and trelawney only after it was completed. This is a reasonable explanation. However, it still does not fit Dumbledores actual statement, where he says that Snape never entered the room, instead was directly thrown out of the inn. So his statement is still wrong. It might not be considered materially wrong, but it is proof that he does not feel obliged to always speak the exact truth.

Now myself, I would never have assumed that Dumbledore always does speak nothing but unvarnished truth. He is a war leader. Speaking the truth in such a position can easily get people killed. In this instance he has a clear motive, very good motive, to lie. If Snape really is acting as his spy, then telling the truth would immediately get snape killed, and undo all the good they might be trying to do with any plan. It is true that Dumbledore was originally presented as a fairytale all-wize good guy. But his character has become much more rounded: he has made clear mistakes, and at least some people agree that he has been less than frank. I do not feel this reflects badly on him: it is merely a device JKR has used to give her readers a morality lesson.

Now, repeating what I said before, assuming Snape is working for Dumbledore, then Dumbledore had a choice whether to forget the prophecy or release it. It is clearly possible that he chose to release just the part of it which helped his cause against Voldemort. Side-tracking your enemy is a very good strategy in a war. This is what I meant in the post before. Dumbledore told Snape which part of the prophecy to tell to Voldemort. Voldemort believed it and went off seeking children. Indeed, it is possible he ordered Snape to apply for a job at Hogwarts so he could check on exactly what children had been born, as recorded on the roll of all magical births. The prophecy would still have been a top secret and Snape already knew it, so a good choice as a spy.

Now, perhaps we disagree that risking the life of an unborn child is an acceptable tactic. I'm afraid that I feel it is. I do not want to draw too many comparisons with real life, but generally the more desperate people become, the wilder are the things which they are willing to do. I think that Dumbledore was losing the war at this point, and was quite desperate. Also, it was by no means clear that anyone would die. Dumbledore set out some bait for Voldemort, and Voldmort took it. Dumbledore also created a trap: he established the order of the phoenix and did his best to ensure that the people concerned were protected. This failed because of something he had not anticipated: Wormtail was a traitor. So. It is arguable that Dumbledore did not feel he was taking a severe risk. Maybe in retrospect he would change his decision, but I doubt it. There were losses, but it worked more or less.

It is also necessary to consider the actual terms of the prophecy. It was not simply made up to distract Voldemort. It was a genuine prophecy that if certain things happened, certain others would too. For the dark lord to be killed, it was necessary the he first take part in some 'marking' of his 'equal'. Somehow he had to be tricked into doing that, and Dumbledore managed this.


Ostensibly Dumbledore might be depressed about Sirius' death at the end of OOP, but he never seemed worried enough about him previously to have discovered the pretty basic error of an innocent man being locked up in Azkaban. Something easy enough for him to check using magic. So maybe he was upset about other things. I feel this recent death more likely put him in mind of other operations which had gone wrong. Perhaps he felt a pattern of his mistakes was forming.

As to Draco. Dumbledore knew a lot about Draco's plans. He told Harry that he knew a lot more than harry did, which was quite a bit. Draco was waiting for an opportunity to invade while Dumbledore was away. Unless Dumbledore left, there would be no invasion. So Dumbledore deliberately left to give them the opportunity to invade. He even took harry with him, to make sure Harry and friends could not get involved with the fight at the school. Arguably exactly as later on top of the tower, where he paralysed Harry so that he could not interfere. Contrary to your view, I believe Dumbledore not only was expecting an invasion, but he arranged cicumstances so that it would happen at a time he chose. Dumbledore did not underestimate Draco. Their conversation just before Dumbledore's death suggests he exactly had the measure of Draco. One part of the plan was clearly to rescue Draco from Voldemort. It seems likely that Dumbledore preferred to allow the plan to continue, complete with risks that Draco would do more wild things, because it drew Voldemort's force to Dumbledore, where he could handle them best.

I do not believe that JKR would play sides in the story by arranging a prophecy which miraculously helped Dumbledore. Rather, Dumbledore connived to make the best of what he was given, which essentially was neutral. I can believe that the whole thing might have been entirely concocted by Dumbledore to disrupt the plans of his enemy. It makes sense.

You are correct in that the only spy named and talked about is Snape. But in PoA it was mentioned that Dumbledore had a number of spies. Now, I would think that he would still have a number of spies out there.

I believe that there was other spyes but Snape I think was the main one as he is in the best position to help Harry and that is always neer DD so I think that though he may not be the only spy I believe he is the best spy that the order have.

If Snape really is acting as his spy, then telling the truth would immediately get snape killed, and undo all the good they might be trying to do with any plan.
How do you figure? Dumbledore tells Harry about Snape hearing the prophecy at the same time he tells Harry about the prophecy. By the end of OotP, Dumbledore is not keeping secrets from Harry for the purpose of keeping them from Voldemort. If he was worried that Voldemort would find out what he told Harry, he would not have told Harry the prophecy and he certainly wouldn't have told Harry about the Horcruxes in HBP.

That's the main, glaring problem with this theory. There isn't even a good reason for Dumbledore to lie to Harry anymore. I'm not sure Dumbledore would lie to Harry even with a good reason (even though he does refuse to tell Harry things when he thinks he has a good reason). In any case, though, I just can't imagine his justification for the lies. I can't figure out why he would lie in the first place in OotP, let alone when he told Harry in HBP that Snape was a DE on prophecy night and went to tell Voldemort.

Ostensibly Dumbledore might be depressed about Sirius' death at the end of OOP, but he never seemed worried enough about him previously to have discovered the pretty basic error of an innocent man being locked up in Azkaban. Something easy enough for him to check using magic.
Dumbledore can't personally investigate every crime to certainty, and he had every reason to believe Sirius was the traitor, having been told he would be the secret keeper... I don't really blame him for that one. There was never any reason for anyone to think Sirius might be innocent until PoA.


I also think you're wrong that it would be a good tactic for Dumbledore. It risked some of his most talented allies (the Potters and the Longbottoms) and it seems to me that if you have a secret weapon like a Chosen One who can defeat your enemy, you would do well to keep it a secret as long as possible. Not knowing how things would actually turn out, I would think Dumbledore would want to have Harry trained as much as possible before his first confrontation with Voldemort. I even fail to see what you think the benefit was of "distracting" Voldemort. We're told the old war was going very poorly for the Order, and there's no indication that it was even less bad, let alone good, towards the end.

Sorry if I'm changing the subject a little bit but here is my opinion for the main title:
If Snape is good,what he did can mean 2 different things:
1.Dumbledore is not dead,which is denied by JKR herself.
2.Dumbledore was a horcrucx,which makes lots of question marks in my head,like how it happened and when Dumbledore only told it to Snape.

I recognise the scenario that someone posted, that possibly Aberforth interrupted Snape on the stairs, causing him to miss the last part of the prophecy, then enter the room with Dumbledore and trelawney only after it was completed. This is a reasonable explanation. However, it still does not fit Dumbledores actual statement, where he says that Snape never entered the room, instead was directly thrown out of the inn. So his statement is still wrong. It might not be considered materially wrong, but it is proof that he does not feel obliged to always speak the exact truth.I like the idea of Aberforth meeting Snape on the stairs, or maybe in the hall outside of the room. Then the confrontation was what stopped Snape from hearing the whole thing. Dumbledore could have asked Aberforth what he heard, and then assume that Snape heard the same thing. Then, when Trelawney was done, she would have come out of her trance and both Dumbledore and Trelawney would go out to see what the commotion was. I hope this still fits with canon.

Now, repeating what I said before, assuming Snape is working for Dumbledore, then Dumbledore had a choice whether to forget the prophecy or release it. I had assumed that when a prophecy is made, it is "magically" recorded for the Hall of Prophecy. No one has to hear it. And the reason I think that, is prophecies could be manipulated by people, in order to get certain outcomes. So, to keep a prophecy pure and unaltered, it would have to be recorded automatically.
As to Draco. Dumbledore knew a lot about Draco's plans. He told Harry that he knew a lot more than harry did, which was quite a bit. Dumbledore knew what Draco's task was, to kill him. He also was referring to the fact that he knew what Snape and Draco were talking about when Harry overheard their conversation. Dumbledore clearly did not know how Draco got Death Eaters into the castle and was amazed that anyone would be able to do it.Contrary to your view, I believe Dumbledore not only was expecting an invasion, but he arranged cicumstances so that it would happen at a time he chose. I have to agree with ronjalina on this point. Dumbledore would not have purposely left the castle if he knew there was going to be an attack. He could never put his students in danger.

I recognise the scenario that someone posted, that possibly Aberforth interrupted Snape on the stairs, causing him to miss the last part of the prophecy, then enter the room with Dumbledore and trelawney only after it was completed. This is a reasonable explanation. However, it still does not fit Dumbledores actual statement, where he says that Snape never entered the room, instead was directly thrown out of the inn. So his statement is still wrong. It might not be considered materially wrong, but it is proof that he does not feel obliged to always speak the exact truth.
Dumbledore’s actual statement is:
My- our – one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building.
See? Dumbledore doesn’t claim that Snape never entered the room, nor does he claim that that the eavesdropper was directly thrown from the building. This makes the scenario with Aberforth interruption stopping Snape from hearing the whole thing more likely. It doesn’t need a lie from Dumbledore; his statement is not wrong.

I am a believer of the 'Snape is a git but he is good' theory.....Hence I found it difficult to believe that he murdered Dumbledore...
I found solace in the 'Dumbledores' death was pre-planned idea'

However for a long time, I couldn't understand how this line fit into the scheme of things.
'Snape glared for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion etched in the harsh lines of his face.
'Severus please'...
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
'Avada Kedavra'.


If Snape was on the good side..Dumbledores' side, then why would he look at Dumbledore with such hatred?

The probable answer came to me while reading this thread..

He(Snape) told Voldermort about the prophecy, it was him, he listened outside the door, Trelawney told me

From this we know that it was Snape who overheard and conveyed the prophecy to Voldemort.
While overhearing the prophecy, I wonder whether Dumbledore caught him***.
If he did, it would be possible for Dumbledore to do two things
1)Modify Snapes memory
2)Persuade Snape to become a spy against Voldemort

If he did either of the two, how did Voldemort learn about the prophecy?
I believe Dumbledore instructed Snape to reveal part of the prophecy to Voldemort.


This is where the 'Snape loves Lily theory'comes into play
After learning how Voldemort interpreted the prophecy and that Lily was killed, Snape blamed Dumbledore
and Voldemort for Lilys death.
Snape chose to remain with Dumbledore because he was the lesser of the two evils and he could keep
him out from from Azkaban. But he never forgave him for Lilys death.

*** We know from the HBP that Trelawney recounted to Harry the fact that she had seen Snape caught by
'that uncouth barman' now we know that Snape did not dissapparate after hearing half the prophecy because
Trelawney saw him after reviving from the trance.
I believe those few seconds would be enough for for Dumby to catch/overpower Snape

I like the idea of Aberforth meeting Snape on the stairs, or maybe in the hall outside of the room. Then the confrontation was what stopped Snape from hearing the whole thing. Dumbledore could have asked Aberforth what he heard, and then assume that Snape heard the same thing. Then, when Trelawney was done, she would have come out of her trance and both Dumbledore and Trelawney would go out to see what the commotion was. I hope this still fits with canon.
Withy minor modification, yes. Trelawney indicates the door opened, so it was not she or Dumbledpore. However, Aberforth, having collared Snape, might have opened the door to let Albus know someone had been spying on his. I agree there is no real contradication between the accounts of Dumbledore and Trelawney. Dumbledore was in my opinion simply glossing over the fact that he saw the eavesdropper when he spoke to Harry in OotP to avoid the obvious question of who the eavesdropper was. I think he felt it was not a good time for Harry to learn it was Snape, since Harry had just decided to blame Snape for the death of Sirius.


If Snape was on the good side..Dumbledores' side, then why would he look at Dumbledore with such hatred?
Hi ricardo!

I can think of two possible reasons which seem simpler to me than the one you propose.

1) Snape was not hating/revulsed by Dumbledore at that moment, but at himself for taking the Vow, and at what he was about to do. This would be very much like Harry's reaction in the cave, when he had to fore-feed Dumbledore the nasty green goo. "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing..." suggests to me that if we were seeing that scene, we might have described Harry's face in similar terms.

2) It could be that to cast the Killing Curse successfully on someone he truly does not want to kill, Snape would need to be in a hate-filled frame of mind. A lot of magic seems to require the proper emotion or mind-set.

Dumbledore was in my opinion simply glossing over the fact that he saw the eavesdropper when he spoke to Harry in OotP to avoid the obvious question of who the eavesdropper was. I think he felt it was not a good time for Harry to learn it was Snape, since Harry had just decided to blame Snape for the death of Sirius.I agree. Dumbledore knows that Harry does not trust Snape. So, he would try to avoid letting Harry know the one thing that would totally turn Harry against Snape.

If Snape was on the good side..Dumbledores' side, then why would he look at Dumbledore with such hatred?



Well if you believe that Dumbledore, and Snape, had agreed beforehand that, should the time come, Snape must kill Dumbledore; then his look for revulsion, and hate may have been because what Dumbledore was pleading for him to do repulsed him, and he hated it.

Or he may, at that moment, actually have felt hatred towards Dumbledore for insisting that he (Snape) obey his order. But he did it anyway, because ultimately he was loyal to Dumbledore.

This is, of course, assuming that Snape is on the good side.....:D

Ronjalina, I think exactly the same logic applies to Dumbledore explaining to Harry about Snape's part in Harry's parents death as would apply to him explaining about any part he himself might have played. Again, he would put it off. Indeed, Dumbledore does hesitate when Harry confronts him about this just as they are going off to the cave. I interpret the hesitation as Dumbledore figuring this is a very bad time for a complex explanation. Now, we never did get to hear whatever the full story might have been.When they left for the cave they obviously were in a hurry. Harry was questioning Dumbledore about Snape and why Dumbledore trusted Snape. Dumbledore never told Harry about his reason for this. I interpret his hesitation as contemplating to tell Harry why he trusts Snape but then deciding that it is not the right time. I need not mention of course that I don´t think the reason has anything to do with Dumbledore using Snape to relate the Prophecy to Voldemort.

At the end of OOtP Dumbledore admits it was a mistake to wait so long before telling Harry about the Prophecy. Why making another mistake at the same moment in omitting the relevant fact that he [Dumbledore] was the creator of the plan? That makes no sense to me.

Besides, if Dumbledore wanted to distract Voldemort, he could have come up with another plan which wouldn´t endanger innocent children.
Now, perhaps we disagree that risking the life of an unborn child is an acceptable tactic.I definately do disagree. And I cannot imagine that one of the most popular characters in a series of children´s books would be created as someone who thinks it is an acceptable tactic.

I do not believe that JKR would play sides in the story by arranging a prophecy which miraculously helped Dumbledore. Rather, Dumbledore connived to make the best of what he was given, which essentially was neutral. I can believe that the whole thing might have been entirely concocted by Dumbledore to disrupt the plans of his enemy. It makes sense.The Prophecy did not help Dumbledore, it deprived him of two valuable Order members (keep in mind, noone could know what exactly happened and that Voldemort would vanish). But more important the Prophecy set things (Voldemort) in motion and made Harry the Chosen One in the first place. Deus ex machina as someone else already said.

Since this discussion is mainly on Dumbledore and slightly off topic, IMO, and we are basically going round in circles with the same arguments over and over again this will be my last post on this issue. I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Nevertheless, I always enjoy to exchange different opinions and interpretations, so thank you so far.

Since this discussion is mainly on Dumbledore and slightly off topic, IMO, and we are basically going round in circles with the same arguments over and over again this will be my last post on this issue. I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Nevertheless, I always enjoy to exchange different opinions and interpretations, so thank you so far.


I totally agree, I'm out. Obviously, neither side is going to budge.

So, as far as I'm concerned, this particular "Dead Horse" is sufficiently beaten.....:D

I have trouble seeing Churchill or Eisenhower or Roosevelt willing to die for a spy. Bush surely wouldn't.
But Dumbledore is not Bush!!!!! Dumbledore is Dumbledore, and him I can see dying for a spy.

Although there may be much evidence that I have been way to lazy to look into against him, I think that Snape is neither good, nor evil. I believe that he is sitting on the fence, waiting out this war, to come and join whichever side comes out on top. In short, a true Slytherin. Also, I think the reason that Dumbledore (DD) trusts Snape, is because Voldemort murdered Snape's wife and child/children. I know that many of you may oppose this, thinking it's the craziest theory ever to walk the face of this Earth. But listen. Once, when asked the question "Can or do any of the professors at Hogwarts have children?" JK Rowling was slightly startled, but then ansered that she couldn't reveal it because it was part of the plot of book 7. If you think about it, it does make sense. The perfect sob story really.
Snape:"I want to join your side!"
DD:"I can't trust you. You may be evil!"
Snape:*says story*
DD:"WOAH! *sniffle* Sure! Come and join out side!
In conclusion, Snape is neither good, nor evil, but waiting.

Although there may be much evidence that I have been way to lazy to look into against him, I think that Snape is neither good, nor evil. I believe that he is sitting on the fence, waiting out this war, to come and join whichever side comes out on top. In short, a true Slytherin. Also, I think the reason that Dumbledore (DD) trusts Snape, is because Voldemort murdered Snape's wife and child/children.
Hmm.
He seems way too much of a grudge holder/emotional person for this to work. If Voldemort had killed his wife and children, I don't think he would waste time and emotion on James, and I REALLY don't think he would be on the fence. He might be evil, but he would want Voldemort dead.

I see your point, but I still think he might be on the fence. And that Voldy killed snape's family wasn't a serious prediction.

Although there may be much evidence that I have been way to lazy to look into against him, I think that Snape is neither good, nor evil. I believe that he is sitting on the fence, waiting out this war, to come and join whichever side comes out on top. In short, a true Slytherin. Also, I think the reason that Dumbledore (DD) trusts Snape, is because Voldemort murdered Snape's wife and child/children. I know that many of you may oppose this, thinking it's the craziest theory ever to walk the face of this Earth. But listen. Once, when asked the question "Can or do any of the professors at Hogwarts have children?" JK Rowling was slightly startled, but then ansered that she couldn't reveal it because it was part of the plot of book 7. If you think about it, it does make sense. The perfect sob story really.
Snape:"I want to join your side!"
DD:"I can't trust you. You may be evil!"
Snape:*says story*
DD:"WOAH! *sniffle* Sure! Come and join out side!
In conclusion, Snape is neither good, nor evil, but waiting.

Ok, this is pretty crazy, but it strikes me as very interesting.

What if there was a 3rd Evans sister, who also died? What if Snape was in love with HER? If everyone had lived, Snape could have been Harry's uncle....

I don't believe this for a second. Way too far fetched. Someone would have said something to Harry. It would be quite a secret, though. Maybe this sparks an actually believable idea for someone else?

What if there was a 3rd Evans sister, who also died? What if Snape was in love with HER? If everyone had lived, Snape could have been Harry's uncle....


Well here is something you don't hear everyday. lol I like it but it seems way too far fetched to say the least.....too bad.

(*sigh* Uncle Snape) :lol:

I'm afraid that inventing things never even hinted at in the books, interviews or Jo's site will not bring us any nearer the answer to 'Is Snape good or bad?'

I'm inclined to consider them fan fiction, and thus off topic.:D

Thanks zgirnius & Grim_Reapster
I had considered these things beforehand but since we know Snape doesnt wear his 'heart on his sleeve' and considers the people who do show their feelings weak.

Maybe it was a charade?
Maybe his expression was just pretence?

On another note...
If Snape was really bad, he would have followed the Voldys' orders and let/persuded Draco to murder Dumbledore.
But I think it was on Dumbledores' orders that Snape killed Dumby(I dont think Dumby would have
wanted one of his students to kill anyone)
OR
Snape really wanted to hog the limelight and become LVs favorite

Idabomb333, The possibility of Voldemort reading Harry's mind is not the only way harry might betray secrets. Dumbledore might believe Voldemort can't do this any more, but he still might be afraid that Harry will go screaming through the castle demanding an explanation from someone, or chat with the other kids and it will be overheard. So he might still be willing to talk about some things, horcruxes, but keep others back. Also, there is still the big issue that if Snape always was working for Dumbledore, then it was Dumbledores plan which led to james and Lily dying. Dumbledore may very well not wish to talk about that.

Sirius going to gaol: Sirius was one of Dumbledore's OOP people. It seems odd to me that he would have taken the word of others and not even had a quick chat with him, where presumably Sirius would have immediately denied it, and a quick bit of magic would have been able to confirm he was telling the truth.

But myargument was that Dumbledore obviously didn't care much for Sirius, which is why he never did have that little chat, so equally was unlikely to have been much upset when Sirius later got killed.

SusanBOnes111:
re the prophecy. Trelawney said Aberforth and Dumbledore burst into the room (after she had finished prophecying), made some excuses and left. Dumbledore said that Snape was thrown our directly by Aberforth, who caught him listening while Trelawney was speaking, and never entered the room. The two accounts are inconsistent. There is no reason to think Trelawney is lying, because she does not realise she is saying anything important, and no reason she would even have known Snape was there if Dumbledore's account is correct. Dumbledore is clearly editing the story for Harry. What we don't know is whether he was just leaving out unimportant bits, or really hiding something. But at that point Harry did not know it was Snape, so it seems likely that Dumbledore set out to hide that particular piece of information because it would make Harry even madder about Snape. This demonstrates that Dumbledore is willing to hide things to make matters go more smoothly. So, if there is anything else which similarly might make more difficulties than it would solve, it seems reasonable that Dumbledore would avoid mentioning them too.

The fact that a prophecy somehow magically gets into the prophecy hall does not help Voldemort much. Maybe ordinary people are allowed in to see their own prophecies, but not him. So he has to rely on what Snape has told him, which was not the bits he would have wanted to hear. It sounds as though he did not realise at first that he had missed anything important. But given that Voldemort could not go and look it up, and Harry was a baby, then Dumbledore was arguably the only outsider who knew it. Thus he does have the real choice to 1) release none, 2)release some, 3)release all. What happened was (2), Snape told Voldemort just the bits which it suited Dumbledore to release. Hmm.

We have to disgree on whether Dumbledore deliberately permitted the castle invasion. I think he did. I think everybody in the wizarding world is a student of Dumbledore's, and the best he can do is choose which are risked. He had a plan, and was confident he had the situation under control. And as far as risking students went, he was correct. Whether you reckon Snape was a good guy or bad, he definitely gave the death eaters orders to leave everone in the castle alone, and leave immediately.

Ricardo, yes another thing which seemed obvious is that if Dumbledore caught Snape spying, then he could have erased his memory or whatever. This certainly seems a possible course of action for him. It could be that Snape was a spy, but Dumbledore allowed him to report to Voldemort. This implies snape was a true death eater at that time. It would also explain why Dumbledore did not want to properly explain to Harry.

ronjalina, yes we are straying a bit, but the difficulty, as always, is that the actions of one character depend upon others. I still have it firmly in my mind that the order was specifically created after the prophecy to defend the people who might be in the propecy. I am not sure exactly where I got this now, so can't prove it. (will think about that). But if this is so, then you can't argue that the prophecy cost Dumbledore valuable members of his team, because pre-prophecy he did not have one. It was all part of the same plan. But the prophecy did help Dumbledore. None of the order member's deaths truly mattered in the war. The only death which mattered was Voldemorts. This is very important to the issue of whether people believe he was bad or good. If he did something which had predictable good results, it is hard to use this as evidence that he was really one of the bad guys. This act is about the only bad thing Snape is accused of. If it never was a bad act, then case dismissed.

i think he's playing on both sides.but i think he's still loyal to voldermort...at least thats what i want to believe that.

i still have hope for Snape, just reading the books im like why would he do that if he was really a death eater... its prob been said before but why would Snape alert the order in OOTP, he could of just said he didnt understand what harry was saying. Or in HBP why would Dumbledore give Snape the DADA job if he knew it was jinxed... it doesnt make sense unless Dumbledore and Snape planned it all along, Dumbledore and Snapes argument in the forest, Snape healing DD's hand off the ring- why couldn't he just try to do it but take longer or something because that ring totally would of killed Dumbledore if not stopped quickly.
For these reasons and many, many more, which im not going to bother typing because you all would of heard them before anyway lol ,i believe Snapes still on the good side... i hope!

Before Jo let us know what was what, with Dumbledore being dead for good, I had my great suspicions that Snape may have been good. I heard some pretty convincing theories, most of which ensuring Dumbledore's return, but now I am back on the fence. If not, I do hope he will come back to the good side.

Before Jo let us know what was what, with Dumbledore being dead for good, I had my great suspicions that Snape may have been good. I heard some pretty convincing theories, most of which ensuring Dumbledore's return, but now I am back on the fence. If not, I do hope he will come back to the good side.
I was about 95% sure he was dead, killed by Snape at his own request. So all that changed for me is that I have more time for Snape threads.:evil: Keeping up with Dead or Alive was a busy time...that thread could MOVE.

i think snape is good. not judging by anything he has done because if he is good he is an EXCELLENT actor. It's because of Dumbledore. Sure old age may have impaired his judgement, but Dumbledore would NEVER beg to be saved. He himself has said that death is nothing to be afraid of. He would beg to be killed, so that Snape could keep his cover. It would be insulting to his memory to suggest he had pleaded with Snape to save him. and that is why i think he is still good.

I think Snape is good,the most possible reasons 'why Snape turned into DE' are-
1.His jelousy towards Moony,Wormtail,Padfoot,Pronges might have forced him to join Voldy so as to show them that he can do things that others(Moony,Wormtail,Padfoot,Pronges) can't.
2.He could have been threatened and forced to join Voldy...
3.He could have joined Voldy on orders of Dumbledore.

I think Snape is good,the most possible reasons 'why Snape turned into DE' are-
1.His jelousy towards Moony,Wormtail,Padfoot,Pronges might have forced him to join Voldy so as to show them that he can do things that others(Moony,Wormtail,Padfoot,Pronges) can't.
2.He could have been threatened and forced to join Voldy...
3.He could have joined Voldy on orders of Dumbledore.


I agree with you... but I have a few more things that you could add to the list as well...

4. Everyone made so much fun of him by calling him "Snivellus" among such names, that he went and made a new name for himself - "The Half-Blood Prince", just to escape from that hell that he had been going through for so long and to escape the fact that his father was so mean towards his mother and him... and he didn't want to be connected to that...

5. Voldy changed his name to escape his dad since he hated his Muggle heritage... he was very popular at Hogwarts... Snape was not, he [Snape] wanted fame and glory... so he went and made up the name "Half-Blood Prince" in order to be able to get into the Dark Arts Crowd... what he didn't know was once you got into that crowd, there was no way out except for death...

I think Snape is good,the most possible reasons 'why Snape turned into DE' are-
1.His jelousy towards Moony,Wormtail,Padfoot,Pronges might have forced him to join Voldy so as to show them that he can do things that others(Moony,Wormtail,Padfoot,Pronges) can't.
2.He could have been threatened and forced to join Voldy...
3.He could have joined Voldy on orders of Dumbledore.
hang on, dumbledore said he was a death eater and then he stopped, didn't he? so he didn't join voldie on dumbledore's orders.
i want to know what it was that made dumbledore trust him, really i do. because i want to believe he's good, or at least not all bad, and i don't think dumbledoe would trust him without a good reason.

hang on, dumbledore said he was a death eater and then he stopped, didn't he? so he didn't join voldie on dumbledore's orders.
i want to know what it was that made dumbledore trust him, really i do. because i want to believe he's good, or at least not all bad, and i don't think dumbledoe would trust him without a good reason.


Well, if you consider the "Snape loved Lily" theory, Dumbledore's trust in him makes sense. When Snape told Voldemort the part of the prophecy that he overheard, he had no idea that the child he would go after was Lily's. But once he realized who it was that Voldemort had set his sights on, he panicked, and went to the one man who might be able to help save her: Dumbledore.

I think that this is one of the reasons that Dumbledore goes on, and on about the power of love. Snape's love for Lily brought him back from the dark side. Which is something that Voldemort would never understand, or expect.

hang on, dumbledore said he was a death eater and then he stopped, didn't he? so he didn't join voldie on dumbledore's orders.
i want to know what it was that made dumbledore trust him, really i do. because i want to believe he's good, or at least not all bad, and i don't think dumbledoe would trust him without a good reason.

Yeah, I know!
Everything we believe...everything that we think we have proof for and everything we want to see as true, could all be completely erased if we just found out the reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape.
Because either way, Snape has proven to us that he is a very skilled Occlumens, and he does NOT wear his heart on his sleeve, as someone so rightfullly put.
If we can just find out why Dumbledore trusted this man; this man that shows evidence of being so evil, and yet at the same time, being, regardless of his mistakes and falters, truly a good, but very misunderstood, person.
Randomly got really mushy...

I found a reference to the end of HBP, where Harry challenges Dumbledore about what Trelawney has just told him, that Snape had been the eavesdropper.

Now, what I noticed is Dumbledores reaction when Harry speaks to him.

"What has happened to you?"
"Nothing," lied Harry promptly.
"What has upset you?"
"I'm not upset."
"Harry, you were never a good Occlumens --"
"Snape!" he said, very loudly, and Fawkes gave a soft squawk behind them. "Snape's what' happened! He told Voldemort about the prophecy, it was him, he listened outside the door, Trelawney told me!"
Dumbledore's expression did not change, but Harry thought his face whitened under the bloody tinge cast by the setting sun. For a long moment, Dumbledore said nothing. "When did you find out about this?" he asked at last. (HBP, pp.547, 548, the seer overheard)

It goes on, Dumbledore questions Harry about what he has discovered, all the while remaining totally motionless. Then, he starts a careful explanation of how Snape truly regretted what he had done. Dumbledore recovers his composure, and goes on telling Harry his plans for the evening.

Now, my difficulty. Dumbledore is shocked, maybe frightened, whatever, but something really bad has just happened to cause him to turn white. But then he recovers, after explaining that Snape was terribly sorry. Wow, my goodness, he turned white, as one does when caught doing something terribly wrong, because he has not explained it was Snape who told Voldemort? All that amounts to really, is saving Snape's embarassment, not Dumbledore's.

So, I think Dumbledore was terribly afraid that Trelawney had just told Harry something very important. But she did not, and he relaxed again. What she did tell him was that Snape had been acting as Voldemort's spy. So what was he really worried about? What exactly did she not give away, that would have impacted very badly on the relationship between Dumbledore and Harry?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++


4. Everyone made so much fun of him by calling him "Snivellus" among such names, that he went and made a new name for himself - "The Half-Blood Prince", just to escape from that hell that he had been going through for so long and to escape the fact that his father was so mean towards his mother and him... and he didn't want to be connected to that...


Other people have commented on how Snape could possibly use a word like mud-blood as an insult when having an argument with Lily. Now, why would he choose to use the same sort of insult as part of his own nickname?

I think the answer is because he didn't, because she used it against him, but eventually he accepted it and it stuck. But also remember that it was never used openly in school. This was a very odd sort of name choosing.

wow - version 4.

Right now, I am leaning towards thinking that Snape is evil. Too much of what JKR said at the recent NYC readings made me think he is evil. But I still can't completely get the thought out of my mind that Snape really is good and will end up trying to protect the trio in the end.... I keep seeing the PoA scene in the movie where Snape gets in front of them when Lupin has just turned into a werewolf

(but I change my mind on the "Snape is good/evil" thing all the time...) =)

I stumbled across an interesting observation while re-reading the HBP:
At Spinners end, Snape tells Narcissa that Dumbledore had aquired his injury during the fight against Voldemort
But Dumby hinted to Harry that he got the injury 'around the same time' that he retrieved the Peverrel
ring (this was a couple of days before he picked Harry from the Dursleys).

Now since it was Snape that was treating his wound, I think he would have noticed that he treated the
wound more than a fortnight (or more) since the fiasco at the ministry.
Wouldn't he have suspected something?
Wouldn't he have known what type of curse acted upon the wound in order to treat it?

Either he was ignorant about Dumbledores wound or he was hiding something from Bella
If he did the latter, he is probably good....

(but I change my mind on the "Snape is good/evil" thing all the time...) =)It is easy to understand why you do this, JK Rowling has carefully written her books to make Snape both good and bad (evil is too strong a word for me - Voldemort is evil). Snape was bad when he was a Death Eater. He treated Harry and Neville badly throughout the books. But he has done good things, too. So, he is both good and bad.

I'm afraid that Voldemort's motives for his instructions about Harry are a bit off topic.:)

On the other hand, asking wether Snape only followed given instructions or had his own reasons for protecting Harry during the Hogwarts battle, is indeed very much on topic here.

My apologies for not clarifying...(the post is back on page 3). My meaning behind explaining all of that about Voldemort was to say that I did not think that there was any good reason to simply leave Harry behind. Snape's motives for leaving him completely seem a bit questionable to me.

Wouldn't he have known what type of curse acted upon the wound in order to treat it?

This was something that I thought before as well. That to properly treat DD, he would need to know about the curse that caused the injury. If it had happened at the ministry there would be no reason not to tell Snape. It has been speculated however, that if it was caused by a horcrux, then he did not wish to tell Snape exactly what the real cause was. This in turn causes Snapes treatments to be ineffective in completely curing DD. Then, with that in mind, thinking that the injury was slowly killing him, and then drinking whatever that was in the cave, that he was dying anyway and it was agreed at some point that Snape would kill him off to save others. Thereby explaining DD's "murder" if Snape is indeed good. I hope that summary was not confusing:D

Interesting point about Snape lying to Bella and Narcissa though. Do we actually have canon to tell us which caused DD's injury?

At Spinners end, Snape tells Narcissa that Dumbledore had aquired his injury during the fight against Voldemort


That's not exactly what Snape said, He said:

The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were.

He didn't say that Dumbledore sustained the injury to his hand during his duel with Voldemort, he said that he got it since. which I interpret as some time after the duel.

Then, with that in mind, thinking that the injury was slowly killing him

Where do you get the idea that the injury to his hand was killing him, I've read HBP four times, and never gotten that impression, I thought that Snape stopped the spread of the curse in time to save Dumbledore's life, but his hand was permanently damaged. Dumbledore himself said that it was a small price to pay for one seventh of Voldemort's soul. If it were killing him, that's hardly a "small price".

I don't really have that idea one way or the other. It has been posed in the past (possibly on another thread even) that it may be a possibility to help explain Snape's actions when he killed Dumbledore. I was just summarizing some of the speculation and senario in relation to what ricardo had posted. I do not think that there was ever proof of it anywhere, just a sort of "what if".

I don't really have that idea one way or the other. It has been posed in the past (possibly on another thread even) that it may be a possibility to help explain Snape's actions when he killed Dumbledore. I was just summarizing some of the speculation and senario in relation to what ricardo had posted. I do not think that there was ever proof of it anywhere, just a sort of "what if".

Okay, thanks for the explaination. It's just that this is the second time that I've seen this idea posted in recent threads, and I was beginning to think that I'd missed something......:shrug:

I know that feeling quite well actually:D And thank you for the clarification on the injury and what Snape said at Spinner's End...speaking of feeling as though I had missed something.:lol:

Well, I'm new to this forum so first thing good day to you all.

I read several very interesting posts in this thread, and I more than ever convinced that Snape is on the good side.

Well the various clues and theories about it have been largely discussed already, so I won't go into it once more.

Just thought I would add my 2 cents though. Recently JKR said something very interesting about Snape, which for me makes it quite obvious (too much one would say) :

Salman and Milan Rushdie: Until the events of Volume 6, it was always made plain that Snape might have been an unlikable fellow but he was essentially one of the good guys (crowd screams approval).

JK Rowling: I can see this is the question you all really want answered.

Salman and Milan Rushdie: Dumbledore himself - Dumbledore himself had always vouched for him.

JK Rowling: Yes.

Salman and Milan Rushdie: Now we are suddenly told that Snape is a villain and Dumbledore's killer.

JK Rowling: Un hunh.

Salman and Milan Rushdie: We cannot, or don't want to believe this (crowd laughs). Our theory is that Snape is in fact, still a good guy (crowd applauds). From which it follows that Dumbledore can't really be dead and that the death is a ruse cooked up between Dumbledore and Snape to put Voldemort off his guard so that when Harry and Voldemort come face to face (crowd laughs). Harry may have more allies than he or Voldemort suspects. So, is Snape good or bad? (crowd laughs, applauds and screams and Jo chuckles). In our opinion, everything follows from it.

JK Rowling: Well, Salman, your opinion, I would say is ... right. But I see that I need to be a little more explicit and say that Dumbledore is definitely ... dead (crowd gasps). And I do know - I do know that there is an entire website out there that says - that's name is DumbledoreIsNotDead.com so umm, I'd imagine they're not pretty happy right now (crowd laughs). But I think I need - you need - all of you need to move through the five stages of grief (crowd laughs), and I'm just helping you get past denial. So, I can't remember what's next. It may be anger so I think we should stop it here. Thank you (crowd applauds).

The whole thing is available here :
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2006/0802-radiocityreading2.html#jo

I think it pretty much settles things :
Salman makes 3 points :
1- Snape is on the good side
2- he and dumbledore set up D. death in order to fool Voldemort about who is really on the side of Harry
3- Dumbledore is not dead

And Jo tells him "you're right, but Dumbledore is dead". Thus follows 3 is false, but 1 and 2 are true.
Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him in order to be ready to help Harry when Voldemort expects it the least, and being at the very best place for it, which is on Voldemort very side.

With this quote, I think the worst thing that can happen is that the transcript appears to be incorrect, but it's unlikely given the source.

Well, I'm new to this forum so first thing good day to you all.

I read several very interesting posts in this thread, and I more than ever convinced that Snape is on the good side.

Well the various clues and theories about it have been largely discussed already, so I won't go into it once more.

Just thought I would add my 2 cents though. Recently JKR said something very interesting about Snape, which for me makes it quite obvious (too much one would say)
:welcome: to the forums, Orion1024!

While I agree that Snape is good, but I think it is possible Rowling's words could be interpreted as ambiguous. Rushdie's final statement is:

So, is Snape good or bad? (crowd laughs, applauds and screams and Jo chuckles). In our opinion, everything follows from it.

And Rowling responds that their opinion is correct. Perhaps, she is answering only the final bit, and it is correct that everything follows from whether Snape is good or bad (ie, it is the big question...)

I also think it is too cool that Salman Rushie is a Potter fan...

Wow. THAT would be twisted.

In fact, it makes sense, as it is strange for her to give it away juste like this...

Aaargh, back into uncertainty again :(

I think it pretty much settles things :
Salman makes 3 points :
1- Snape is on the good side
2- he and dumbledore set up D. death in order to fool Voldemort about who is really on the side of Harry
3- Dumbledore is not dead

And Jo tells him "you're right, but Dumbledore is dead". Thus follows 3 is false, but 1 and 2 are true.
Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him in order to be ready to help Harry when Voldemort expects it the least, and being at the very best place for it, which is on Voldemort very side.

With this quote, I think the worst thing that can happen is that the transcript appears to be incorrect, but it's unlikely given the source.I would like to :welcome: you orion 1024 as well.

I agree with zgirnius here. Over the years, JKR has developed into a master of indefinate and evasive answers if she doesn´t want to give away things that will come up in the next book(s). The same here. We can only speculate to which of Salman Rushdies comments she refers to. It´s interesting I think, that right after her opening remark she diverts the attention from the Snape issue and directs the attention to the "Dumbledore is dead" issue. She goes on about that almost the whole paragraph. I´m still wandering if she had planned beforehand to give that information away at some time or the other or if it happened inimpulse.

Though I am in the Snape is good camp as well, I am afraid this interview does not clear things up.

And Rowling responds that their opinion is correct. Perhaps, she is answering only the final bit, and it is correct that everything follows from whether Snape is good or bad (ie, it is the big question...)I'm leaning quite strongly towards thinking your interpretion is correct. Salman used the word opinion only once, in his last sentence. Snape is good was, in Salman's words, a theory not an opinion. And Jo replied that his opinion was right. About his theory she said nothing except that she debunked the corollary.

It is very interesting to see the way Salmon Rushdie's question and JK Rowling's answer gets interpretted. She is indeed the master of "keeping us in the dark"!

One thing that I think Rushdie was pointing out was that if Dumbledore was still alive, pretending to be dead, then we could still consider Snape to be good. But if he is dead, that changes everything. And so is does! But I also think JK Rowling is answering Rushdies's last statement, that everything flows from whether Snape is good or bad. She will never answer the good/bad question, until book 7 is out. And then I hope that whatever answer we see, we all agree on!

This is a little off track, but I seem to remember that JK said that Harry's mother's eyes would be important later on in the series... I originally thought that they would help to make Harry's magic that much stronger, but now I think that they are the key to why Snape felt so remorseful in the first place. They remind him of the person that was so nice and kind to him, they in essence give him a conscience, Lily that is. I think that this is what JK meant by Snape having a redemptive nature. Just a guess though, but hopefully one that will turn out :).

It is very interesting to see the way Salmon Rushdie's question and JK Rowling's answer gets interpreted. She is indeed the master of "keeping us in the dark"!
[/QUOTE}
She definitely didn't want to answer that question, not as it was intended. Instead, she happily chatted on about how Dumbledore was dead. It seemed to me that at one time she would not have wished to make that announcement. I think it was the 'tip of the day', which she had decided to release. Enough speculating on that particular topic, she did once say that if people were really going off on an unhelpful line of reasoning, she would put them straight.

I agree that what she precisely said about the body of Rushdie's question, was that she agreed everything follows from whether Snape is good or bad.

[QUOTE]
One thing that I think Rushdie was pointing out was that if Dumbledore was still alive, pretending to be dead, then we could still consider Snape to be good. But if he is dead, that changes everything.
Well, not entirely. It still depends why he is dead. If it turned out that he was still alive, then I think it would have probably also have proved that Snape had been in on faking the death, so must be on the good side. Even that is not certain, for example Dumbledore might have figured out the blocker for the Avada Kedavra. Unfortunately, knowing for certain that Dumbledore is definitely dead still does not prove he did not arrange his own death with Snape.

Well, not entirely. It still depends why he is dead. If it turned out that he was still alive, then I think it would have probably also have proved that Snape had been in on faking the death, so must be on the good side. Even that is not certain, for example Dumbledore might have figured out the blocker for the Avada Kedavra. Unfortunately, knowing for certain that Dumbledore is definitely dead still does not prove he did not arrange his own death with Snape.Or Dumbledore agreeing on the reasons for Snape taking the vow and hence accepted why he had to die.

The only problem I have and it is a worrying one is that Snape might have played on the fact that Dumbledore would give up his life if it meant saving both Draco and himself from Voldemort's plans.

If Snape has not taken advanage of this route between himself and Dumbledore then I have a feeling that Dumbledore would understand what he has to do and why. This does not how ever mean that Dumbledore agreed with the way in which he handled the situation or the fact that he took an unbreakable vow to protect Draco. Dumbledore would agree though on protecting Draco because that is what he was trying to do up on the tower.

Deep down in side I think Snape was hoping Draco would pull this off so that he would not have to kill Albus. I think this explains why Snape looks at Draco first and finds to his horror the death eaters where right. The boy does not have it in him and hence he must do the thing he wished he never vowed to do, kill Albus. No time turners can help him go back and change the out come at Spinner's End. What is done is done and there is no turning back and when it comes down to the crunch, even though Dumbledore may have been disappointed in Snape taking that vow (arguement Hagrid over heard). Dumbledore begged him because he was affraid Snape would not be able to pull off what he vowed up in that tower.

Snape hated himself and was repulsed by his own very actions. Dumbledore begging was trying to make it easier for him by showing him that he held no remorse over his actions.

We know there was a plan because Dumbledore said that Draco had a choice when it came to killing him. Dumbledore could send two of his order members to protect him and his mother. This suggests that Dumbledore new he was not going to live because he was in a hurry when telling Draco this information. Why the hurry if he new he did not think he was going to die. Why did Dumbledore feel that he did not have much time to tell Draco what he can do for him if he changed his mind?

I think he new he was going to die and new who was going to do this because he and Snape had already discussed this out come prior to the tower night.

What is more Harry knows that Draco backed down and he also heard Dumbledore’s wishes that Draco should be protected if he did back down from killing him. In a way Dumbledore could have been leaving this last order with Harry in the hope that Harry acts on this and sends out two order members to protect Draco’s family.

So I do not think Snape is entirely good because he uses all the means available to him to achieve a goal (true Slytherin) and does not think about the consequences of his actions until it is to late.

In other words he rushes into things with out fully thinking them through and pays for his mistakes when he makes them. There is evidence for this:

Telling Voldemort about the prophecy he heard with out realising with baby Voldemort would go for.
Following Remus into that deadly trap that Sirius made him fall for (rushing off after a hunch with out knowing all the facts and nearly dying as a result).

I was just thinking about it and...even if Snape was evil, which I don't think he is, I don't think he could hate Dumbledore that much. I mean, as much was etched on his face.
Dumbledore was so good to Snape regardless of whether Snape was evil or not...he was kind and accomodating of him, he gave him a second chance when no one else would. So unless he is extremely evil and only out for himself, I don't think he would be capable of that hatrid for Dumbledore.

I was just thinking about it and...even if Snape was evil, which I don't think he is, I don't think he could hate Dumbledore that much. I mean, as much was etched on his face.
Dumbledore was so good to Snape regardless of whether Snape was evil or not...he was kind and accomodating of him, he gave him a second chance when no one else would. So unless he is extremely evil and only out for himself, I don't think he would be capable of that hatrid for Dumbledore.


I agree, Dumbledore, quite probably, was the only one to ever really trust Snape. He went to bat for him when noonne else would. Dumbledore may have been the closest thing to a real friend that Snape ever had. He would have to be truly heartless to not be affected by this.

Voldemort would never stand up for any of his followers. To him they're just tools to be used, then discarded when they're no longer useful. For Snape to choose Voldemort over Dumbledore, he would either have to be truly evil, or totally power-hungry.

I agree, Dumbledore, quite probably, was the only one to ever really trust Snape. He went to bat for him when noonne else would. Dumbledore may have been the closest thing to a real friend that Snape ever had. He would have to be truly heartless to not be affected by this.

Voldemort would never stand up for any of his followers. To him they're just tools to be used, then discarded when they're no longer useful. For Snape to choose Voldemort over Dumbledore, he would either have to be truly evil, or totally power-hungry.

I too couldn't understand the hatred so I came up with a theory..
link (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php?searchid=1637544)

I was of the Good!Snape camp until yesterday, when I started re-reading HBP. The scene at the very beginning, with Snape and Bellatrix and Narcissa, is exactly what it looks like. Snape explains explicitly why Voldemort believes he is faithful, gives every reason for all the niggly little questions about his loyalties. To me, it seems like JKR is laying it down for her readers, "You wanted to know whose side Snape was on? Well!"
And then, in case that scene wasn't concrete enough, SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE.
The reasoning behind Dumbledore's murder won't be ridiculously complex. Rowling won't set off on some long winded scheme of double and triple crossings, that makes for bad reading. That makes for fanfiction. :p Snape killed Dumbledore, Dumbledore is dead, I am crushed - but anything else is just wishful thinking.

I was of the Good!Snape camp until yesterday, when I started re-reading HBP. The scene at the very beginning, with Snape and Bellatrix and Narcissa, is exactly what it looks like. Snape explains explicitly why Voldemort believes he is faithful, gives every reason for all the niggly little questions about his loyalties. To me, it seems like JKR is laying it down for her readers, "You wanted to know whose side Snape was on? Well!"
Until we get the same explanation for exactly why Dumbledore believed he was faithful, we are only getting one side of the story.

Voldemort would never stand up for any of his followers. To him they're just tools to be used, then discarded when they're no longer useful. For Snape to choose Voldemort over Dumbledore, he would either have to be truly evil, or totally power-hungry.Exactly. And someone as clever as Snape knows that. Dumbledore, on the other hand, trusts him, has forgiven him his mistakes (i.e. telling Voldemort the Prophecy), and - very important - can be completely trusted by Snape himself.

So, if Snape is, as a lot of people on this thread have suggested, fights only on himself, he should have figured out by now which side would be the best for him, IMO.

Until we get the same explanation for exactly why Dumbledore believed he was faithful, we are only getting one side of the story.Exactly. And I don´t think there has to be explained so much anyway to explain the "Snape killed Dumbledore but is on the good side" scenario. We, and Harry of course, already know about the Unbreakable Vow Snape made, and we know that killing Dumbledore was originally Draco´s task. And any explanation of the above mentioned scenario pretty much centers around these information.

Exactly. And I don´t think there has to be explained so much anyway to explain the "Snape killed Dumbledore but is on the good side" scenario. We, and Harry of course, already know about the Unbreakable Vow Snape made, and we know that killing Dumbledore was originally Draco´s task. And any explanation of the above mentioned scenario pretty much centers around these information.

I'm gonna be real original here and say: Exactly!
There will be a reason Dumbledore trusts Snape...but I don't think this can be massive enough for Harry to be like "Ooooh. Bravo, Snape. Bravo."
So we almost have all the information we need, its just a matter of how it is perceived.
Which is exactly why JKR did that.
Damn her.

My cousin and I have been discussing the good/bad Snape idea a bit recently and she came up with this idea that I think is almost believable.
Her belief is that Dumbledore is not dead. This is mainly due to the uncharacteristic way in which he meets the man who everyone believes is about to kill him. I don't think that the Dumbledore we have grown to love would plead in such a weak manner with his murderer. The words "Severus...Please..." seem so unlike Dumbledore that we have come up with a fairly wild theory as to what really happened.
With the increasing danger surrounding the school and the growing strength of Voldermort and his forces Dumbledore and Snape made an agreement that would save Dumbledore's life and provide him with a spy deep inside Voldemort's army. At the point at which all seemed to be lost for Dumbledore Snape would be the one who 'killed' him. Instead of actually killing him Dumbledore is somehow stunned and everyone at the scene presumes he is dead (there is a lot of powerful magic that we still do not know about). Voldemort then presumes Dumbledore is dead and that he can simply march on and destroy the wizarding community, whilst Dumbledore can formulate a counter-attack in hiding.
The basis for this lies in the way in which Dumbledore and Snape act. I have already mentioned Dumbledore's conduct but Snape's is also interesting. The way in which he barges through the door and barely gives anyone a chance to speak before blasting Dumbledore over the battlements. This whole scene looks very rehearsed and Snape's haste only supports our theory better. Upon noticing that Dumbledore was at a great risk (four Death Eaters on the roof, and an easily influenced boy who has been ordered to murder Dumbledore) he charges up to the roof and quickly has to 'kill' Dumbledore himself before any of the other Death Eaters loose their nerve and finish him off.
I don't know whether anyone out there thinks this is remotely possible but I would be interested in any comments any of you may have.

My cousin and I have been discussing the good/bad Snape idea a bit recently and she came up with this idea that I think is almost believable.
Her belief is that Dumbledore is not dead.
In her recent appearance in New York City, Rowling was very clear that Dumbledore is dead.
(She was rather less clear about Snape's loyalties).

1) Dumbledore knew that Snape had made the unbreakable vow to help Draco with his task
2) Dumbledore knew Draco's task was trying to kill him

Isn't it logical that Dumbledore and Snape knew one of them must die?

Dumbledore made lots of comments about death being the next adventure, not fearing death, and how very old and near the end of his time he was.

Isn't it possible that Dumbledore planned his own death, with Snape as his killer?

Question:
It seemed that when the cave potion might be killing him, Dumbledore was desperate to get to Snape - if he died before Snape could kill him, would the unbreakable vow have killed Snape for failing?

Question:
It seemed that when the cave potion might be killing him, Dumbledore was desperate to get to Snape - if he died before Snape could kill him, would the unbreakable vow have killed Snape for failing?
In my opinion, no. If Dumbledore had dropped dead of natural or (at any rate) non-Draco related causes any time that year, I think Snape would have been off the hook. I don't think it could be said that Draco seemed to fail...he would seem to have not gotten around to doing it yet.

1) Dumbledore knew that Snape had made the unbreakable vow to help Draco with his task
But that is very debatable. Harry told him about what Snape told Draco. But the question is did Dumbledore believe that Snape actually made a vow or that it was just some story Snape told to gain Draco’s trust?

OK, sorry if I'm stating anything that has been said a lot before, but I can't read the whole of all the threads on this topic.

I think Snape is good. He has never hurt Harry (other than Harry's ego) and he's always tried to see to it that Harry is protected.

JKR has mislead us on Snape before, and I believe she is likely to do so again. In other words, Harry's been wrong about Snape so often before that I'm going to think at least twice (if not five times) before believing anything Harry says or thinks about him.

Although to all outward appearances Snape killed Dumbledore, Dumbledore may have already been dying anyway, from his hand or the potion, and he may have ordered Snape to kill him. Dumbledore has always said things like 'death is the next great adventure' so it seems very out of character for him to beg Snape not to kill him. Because of that, I think he was begging Snape to kill him.

And I don't believe that Harry has got the right reason for Snape leaving the Death Eaters (or pretending to, whichever is the case). I don't think Dumbledore would trust someone purely on the basis that someone they always hated was dead and they accidentally caused it. Snape probably does regret James and Lily's deaths, but it is not the reason he switched sides.

He's on neither side IMO, he was pressured to murder Dumbledore (I believe the cave potion was killing him already) because of the vow, and to keep Draco alive and to keep his double agent cover.

Note the same expression on disgust on Snape's face when he AK's Dumbledore and Harry's when he makes Dumbledore drink the potion.

What possible reason would Snape have to hate DD? Yes, he kept him from the DADA job, but he saved him from Azkaban, always puts on a good word for him (which almost no one else except maybe Hagrid does), gave him a place to stay and a job and testified for him and he vouched he's not a DE.

I was wondering how Snape didnt know that Sirius was not a death eater and Wormtail was one, after all he was an undercover death eater at the time and should have known who tipped off Voldemort about the where the Potters had gone into hiding?

I was wondering how Snape didnt know that Sirius was not a death eater and Wormtail was one, after all he was an undercover death eater at the time and should have known who tipped off Voldemort about the where the Potters had gone into hiding?


I don't think that Snape did know that Wormtail was a death eater. In POA he overhears Sirius' explanation of how Peter betrayed the Potter's, and faked his own death; But he still tried to capture Sirius. He wouldn't even listen to the truth. Of course it's possible that he just didn't care if it was true.

I don't think that all of the death eaters know who each other are. Sure some of them do know each other. But not all of them. And I doubt that Voldemort would share very much information with a spy embedded in the enemy camp. There was always the chance that Dumbledore would discover that Snape was working for Voldemort; and make him disclose information about him, and his followers.

I was wondering how Snape didnt know that Sirius was not a death eater and Wormtail was one, after all he was an undercover death eater at the time and should have known who tipped off Voldemort about the where the Potters had gone into hiding?We have Karkaroff explaining in his hearing that each DE only knew a certain number of others. Notice that almost all of the names Karkaroff gave had already been discovered. He was desperate to name names - it was the only way for him to get out of Azkaban. And yet he could only give SIX names.

Admittedly, Snape seems to have known more DEs that Karkaroff did, but we are not positive if he knew all of them BEFORE Voldy vaporized or whether some of the names he gives Bella are names he learned after that. For instance, by accusations from the Ministry, or thru Lucius after Voldy's fall. I personally find it quite strange that the DEs WOULD reveal themselves to other ex-DEs back in '81 - however Snape and Albus apparently believed Voldy would be back, so Snape was probably in touch with former DEs and trying to be introduced to any others in the time between '81 and '91.

Anyway - the question is WHY would Voldy ever let one spy know about the other? Especially WHY let Snape know about the other spy on Voldy? I always figured Voldy knew Albus was a legilimens. That seems obvious from the way they fought in the Ministry atrium - reading each others non-verbal spells. Perhaps Voldy MIGHT think Snape could fool Albus (occlumens) without being good enough to fool himself - but I think Voldy would be more likely to believe that Snape would not be able to occlude Albus any better than himself. In which case, Voldy would be quite sure to keep Snape in the dark about his other spy.

Personally, I hope Snape is on the good side. It would be terrible if he wasn't.

Personally, I hope Snape is on the good side. It would be terrible if he wasn't.
I agree, it would be rather pointless if he wasn't... In my opinion, it would be more interesting if Harry, Ron and Hermione were wrong about him... especially the first 2, since they haven't been right about him throughout the series yet :p...

I'm not sure Snape knows which side hes on anymore.
Or perhaps he has given up trying to convince people that hes even on either side.
Like I said before...even if he IS that evil, hating Dumbledore with such a passion after all hes done for Snape is quite ridiculous. It could happen...if Snape is heavily dark.
As well, maybe when he told Harry 'DON'T CALL ME A COWARD', maybe he was basically telling him that he has given up ever convincing anyone on the good side that he is in fact good and doing that must have taken a lot of courage because if he was ever on the good side, there's not a chance he'll be trusted anymore unless the "iron-clad" reason is unbelievable. And Snape would know this. He's probably really confused. There's a chance that killing Dumbledore caused him to feel certain things that hes never really felt before for another human being, and that probably really scared him. He probably felt more like a murderer than he ever thought he would.
It's all rather confusing. I'm sure Snape feels the same way.

I'm not sure Snape knows which side hes on anymore.
Or perhaps he has given up trying to convince people that hes even on either side.

Anyway, he must keep convincing Voldie that he is on his side, because if not, he will be dead soon.

I believe that Snape is good for a reason I believe triumphs all other arguments: Dumbledore would never beg for his life… He was ready to die, and has settled his business throughout HBP. He has talked about death as if it was just another adventure for the well organized mind.
He knew that there was little he could do when he found out about the UV and realized that Snape was more important in helping Harry’s quest along.
The problem Snape is facing is this: how will he communicate his findings about V's plans to Harry, when Harry thinks of him as ‘the one who killed DD’?? I think that it will be interesting to see how he works this problem out.

I believe that Snape is good for a reason I believe triumphs all other arguments: Dumbledore would never beg for his life… He was ready to die, and has settled his business throughout HBP. He has talked about death as if it was just another adventure for the well organized mind.
He knew that there was little he could do when he found out about the UV and realized that Snape was more important in helping Harry’s quest along.
The problem Snape is facing is this: how will he communicate his findings about V's plans to Harry, when Harry thinks of him as ‘the one who killed DD’?? I think that it will be interesting to see how he works this problem out.

I agree, it will be very interesting to see how that turns out in book 7... ;).

Just sittin here on the fence with an icepack under my butt, waiting for book 7 to come out... :sigh: :lol:

:D weeeeeeeeeee:clap: some one who agrees with me, and are able to understand me even though I'm not that great at explaining myself in english... why couldn't we all be danish (not a danish!)

I believe that Snape is not truly bad or good. He worked for himself. By being a double spy, if The Order won he could say that he was with the Order and laugh in the Death Eaters faces. However if The Death Eaters won Snape would turn around and laugh in The Order's faces. However, after being forced to kill Dumbledore he now no longer can work for himself. So I conclude that Snape is neither good or bad.

I can see that it will be hard for Snape to work for the order in 7, unless someone other than DD knew about their plan, that Snape had to kill DD. Maybe McGonagall knew, but isn’t allowed to tell anyone but Harry- and haven’t had the time to do so, without anyone else hearing. I still believe that he is working for the order, and I would need to see some pretty heavy evidence to change my mind.

Maybe McGonagall knew

Not judging by her reaction when Harry told her it was Snape that killed Dumbledore. She swayed on her feet like she was about to faint. If she did know about any plan between Dumbledore, and Snape; then that was a pretty good bit of acting.

Not judging by her reaction when Harry told her it was Snape that killed Dumbledore. She swayed on her feet like she was about to faint. If she did know about any plan between Dumbledore, and Snape; then that was a pretty good bit of acting.Exactly my thoughts here. But I like the idea that, assumed there was such a plan, someone else knew about it.

If it was so important to keep up Snape´s cover as a presumed DE that Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself, Snape must be able to provide the Order with insider information on Voldemort´s plans or somehow support Harry in his quest for the Horcruxes. If noone of the Order can be convinced to trust and believe Snape the whole sacrfice would be completely pointless, IMO.

I believe that Snape is not truly bad or good. He worked for himself. By being a double spy, if The Order won he could say that he was with the Order and laugh in the Death Eaters faces. However if The Death Eaters won Snape would turn around and laugh in The Order's faces. However, after being forced to kill Dumbledore he now no longer can work for himself. So I conclude that Snape is neither good or bad.

So who you think he will decide to work for?

Anyway, he must keep convincing Voldie that he is on his side, because if not, he will be dead soon.

He killed Dumbledore.
I dont' think that he needs to convince Voldemort of anything anymore. I don't think convincing Voldemort is on his list of top priorities now because of that.
And I was saying more convincing the people on each side. The Death Eaters and the Order.

Originally Posted by keevil
I'm not sure Snape knows which side hes on anymore.
Or perhaps he has given up trying to convince people that hes even on either side.

I totally agree that Snape doesn't know which side he is on anymore!! Very good indeed. I believe in the end it will be up to him if Voldie dies or not. In the end he will have to chose between good and evil which will cause the fall of the Dark Lord by paving the way for Harry or the rise of the Dark Lord with the death of Harry. The reason he killed Dumbledore was probably because he was under questioning from the Dark Lord. With that open display of loyalty infront of other death eaters his loyalty would no longer be questioned. He and Dumbledore planned this. Now that the deed is done, it will be Snapes choice if he did it for the good side as planned or for the dark side (also as planned).

My argument: Although in the end before Snape blasted him Dumbledore did say "severus please" This could have been in code for "Get on with it, I know you don't want to but you must." Or it could have meant "wait I've changed my mind" and Severus took charge and did what was planned anway.

There are many things about snape that seem to confuse. Did he really know the task assigned to Draco before his mother came and he made the unbreakable vow? Neither Narcissa or Bellatrix could find out from Voldemort or it would be considered treason if they were wrong. No matter what he was justified by killing Dumbledore because of the unbreakable vow. I think we also must remember what Phinneas Nigellus said at 12 Grimmuald Place in Ootp where he said that Slytherins are brave but would always save themselves.

Did he make an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore and that was what they were rowing about? I don't know if Dumbledore would sink to that level. But i do think that they were rowing about killing Dumbledore if it was necessary.


Snape was in my mind still teaching or atleast trying to when he left. He could have killed Harry many times and especially on the way out. Telling him he needs to close his mind and master wordless spells. he stopped the Death Eater giving him the Cruciatus curse which wouldn't have killed him.

One of my biggest questions is whether Snape knows about the Horcruxes or not. Dumbledore trusts him so much and I cant see a scenario where Snape would not know. And snape helped him after he got the ring which would make me believe he knows. But that would truly show that he is ultimately good because Then Voldemort would know about The Locket and the ring if he was bad. any info on that would be very helpful (Did Dumbledore ever say that only he and Harry knows). Did Dumbledore ever say how he got the ring and what happened to his hand. So that still has to be figured out in book 7 probably by Snape letting Harry know.

If Snape is still good how is he going to regain the trust of Harry(impossible)? That is the only scenario i could possibly think of is by telling him about the previous horcruxes and helping him in the future. If Snape is good will Harry kill him before he finds out. But think how great of a Wizard he is. A Potions Master. Capable of fooling either Voldemort or Dumbledore. Able to make up his own spells. Either way Snape is probably the second most valuable asset to either side.(behind Harry on the good and Voldie on the bad.)

There are many things about snape that seem to confuse. Did he really know the task assigned to Draco before his mother came and he made the unbreakable vow? Neither Narcissa or Bellatrix could find out from Voldemort or it would be considered treason if they were wrong. No matter what he was justified by killing Dumbledore because of the unbreakable vow. I think we also must remember what Phinneas Nigellus said at 12 Grimmuald Place in Ootp where he said that Slytherins are brave but would always save themselves.

Did he make an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore and that was what they were rowing about? I don't know if Dumbledore would sink to that level. But i do think that they were rowing about killing Dumbledore if it was necessary.


Snape was in my mind still teaching or atleast trying to when he left. He could have killed Harry many times and especially on the way out. Telling him he needs to close his mind and master wordless spells. he stopped the Death Eater giving him the Cruciatus curse which wouldn't have killed him.

One of my biggest questions is whether Snape knows about the Horcruxes or not. Dumbledore trusts him so much and I cant see a scenario where Snape would not know. And snape helped him after he got the ring which would make me believe he knows. But that would truly show that he is ultimately good because Then Voldemort would know about The Locket and the ring if he was bad. any info on that would be very helpful (Did Dumbledore ever say that only he and Harry knows). Did Dumbledore ever say how he got the ring and what happened to his hand. So that still has to be figured out in book 7 probably by Snape letting Harry know.

If Snape is still good how is he going to regain the trust of Harry(impossible)? That is the only scenario i could possibly think of is by telling him about the previous horcruxes and helping him in the future. If Snape is good will Harry kill him before he finds out. But think how great of a Wizard he is. A Potions Master. Capable of fooling either Voldemort or Dumbledore. Able to make up his own spells. Either way Snape is probably the second most valuable asset to either side.(behind Harry on the good and Voldie on the bad.)I know, why did he even bother to tell Harry that in the first place if he was truly on Voldemort's side? Also, I agree with you on the fact that he would be a valuable asset on either side...

I personally didn't believe for a second Snape was evil. There is so much evidence against it. Why did he kill Dumbledore? So he could protect the Malfoy's. He made an UV with Narcissa to protect her and Draco. And I highly doubt he wanted to. It doesn't seem like him. Dumbledore was one of the only two (or three, maybe) people who ever trusted him. He only killed Dumbledore because he had to. I don't think he ment to kill Lily and James, either. In OOTP, ch28, he doesn't seem evil then, does he? The only reasons why he became a Death Eather — as far as I see — was too get revenge. Maybe on James and Sirius, but also on another person — his father. Why? Well, think about it. Snape and Tobias obviously didn't have a very good relationship at all. Half Blood Prince. Ellen Prince was his mother, people! I also doubt that Tobias and Ellen ever planned on marrige — let alone a child. But how, you may ask, did it happen? I'm not sure. I can only imagine. But I personally believe it involed some illegal actions, if you know what I mean. Judging from a small bit of foreshadowing in OOTP, Tobias seemed like a complete git. If one thing's gonna happen in book 7, it's gonna be Harry finding out more about Snape.


Oh, I also think Snape made an UV with Lily to protect Harry if anything were to happen to her and James, sinse Snape obviously knew about the Prophecy, but that's just one fangirl's opinion.

Why was everyone so concerned with protecting Draco?? Was it worth it to kill Dumbledore for Draco's sake?? Seems fishy to me...

If it was so important to keep up Snape´s cover as a presumed DE that Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself, Snape must be able to provide the Order with insider information on Voldemort´s plans or somehow support Harry in his quest for the Horcruxes. If noone of the Order can be convinced to trust and believe Snape the whole sacrfice would be completely pointless, IMO.This is something really big, isn't it? There can be no compromise here - either Snape is evil enough to murder his mentor and flee to his real master, or he and Dumbledore cooked up this breathtaking sacrifice together. And there are indications for both scenarios. On several occasions I've started scribbling a list of for and against points for Snape, and each time they cancel each other out. It isn't possible to know which side Snape is really on based on what we have so far, because Jo has made it deliberately ambiguous. But if Snape really is on the side of the Order he will have to do something stupendous to prove it and regain the trust of the other Order members. I think this would involve another sacrifice on Snape's part - I don't think he will survive book 7, but I believe his death will help Harry in some way.

A third option is that he really did murder Dumbledore, but that he will come to regret it and help Harry anyway. Maybe Snape was sincere in joining Dumbledore, got fed up with the Order and returned to Voldemort, but will now be overcome with regret again and will do the right thing at the end?

Why was everyone so concerned with protecting Draco?? Was it worth it to kill Dumbledore for Draco's sake?? Seems fishy to me...I agree with you. Dumbledore couldn't sacrifice himself every time someone became a Death Eater. After all, one of the overall themes of the series is about choices. Once someone becomes a Death Eater they are under Voldemort's control. The only way to help them is to hide them, not to sacrifice your life for them.

In fact, Draco is still under Voldemort's control and Dumbledore is dead.

Oh, I also think Snape made an UV with Lily to protect Harry if anything were to happen to her and James, sinse Snape obviously knew about the Prophecy, but that's just one fangirl's opinion.I don´t think so. When was that supposed to happen? When Harry was born, Snape was still a Death Eater. When he switched sides, the Potters were already in hiding and seeing the history of Snape and James I don´t think a) Snape knew where the hiding place was and b) James would never have wanted Snape to have anything to do with Harry. Sirius is Harry´s godfather, he was the first and foremost choice to be responsible for Harry.

This is something really big, isn't it? There can be no compromise here - either Snape is evil enough to murder his mentor and flee to his real master, or he and Dumbledore cooked up this breathtaking sacrifice together. And there are indications for both scenarios. Exactly. My gut feeling tells me it´s the latter option, though I don´t have imperturbable proof. If we had, we wouldn´t have this wonderful thread with the good discussion.

It isn't possible to know which side Snape is really on based on what we have so far, because Jo has made it deliberately ambiguous. As I said before, Snape is one of the most intriguing and inscrutable characters I have ever read. Thank you JKR.:clap:

A third option is that he really did murder Dumbledore, but that he will come to regret it and help Harry anyway. Maybe Snape was sincere in joining Dumbledore, got fed up with the Order and returned to Voldemort, but will now be overcome with regret again and will do the right thing at the end?I, personally, never thought of this third option actually, althought it is a possibility. But I see a few problems with this. First of all, we will not be able to witness this development of Snape´s since this is Harry´s story and it is mainly told from his pov. Secondly, to explain this to the reader and to Harry would be too complicated, IMO. Thirdly, this option means basically, that Snape indeed did kill Dumbledore out of base motives, and it would make it impossible for Harry to ever forgive or trust Snape. Therefore, my guess is for the scenario that Dumbledore had planned it out somehow. When Harry learns that, it might be possible he accepts whatever help and support Snape could provide him on his quest.

Why was everyone so concerned with protecting Draco?? Was it worth it to kill Dumbledore for Draco's sake?? Seems fishy to me...

Snape's perspective could be:

1) Draco is unable to kill Dumbledore. He can die as a punishment.
2) Snape dies if he doesn't fulfill the Vow.
3) The DEs will kill Dumbledore (weak, maybe almost dying) anyway.
4) He still can be useful to the good side, as Voldies "most loyal servant".

Then he makes his decision.

Okay, reopened. We're going to keep this seperate. Carry on folks.

Snape's perspective could be:

1) Draco is unable to kill Dumbledore. He can die as a punishment.
2) Snape dies if he doesn't fulfill the Vow.
3) The DEs will kill Dumbledore (weak, maybe almost dying) anyway.
4) He still can be useful to the good side, as Voldies "most loyal servant".

Then he makes his decision.
I agree with this! Excellent. Snape had to act in some way and he had only a few seconds to decide. Anything longer might have been seen as suspicous.

Snape's perspective could be:

1) Draco is unable to kill Dumbledore. He can die as a punishment.
2) Snape dies if he doesn't fulfill the Vow.
3) The DEs will kill Dumbledore (weak, maybe almost dying) anyway.
4) He still can be useful to the good side, as Voldies "most loyal servant".

Then he makes his decision.
But this begs the question why he put himself in this position in the first place. Starting with stunning Flitwick he could have made a lot of other decisions without the deatheaters finding out at that moment. After he passed the barrier he still could have turned around, stun the single deatheater present, remove the barrier and tell the order up you go, I go back to get some sleep.

Blowing his cover? Perhaps, but not necessarily so. Voldemort would understand that Snape had to keep up appearances and in a confusing battle Snape’s part is not clear to the parties involved.

It is all very fine to point at the limited possibilities Snape had once he went alone to the tower but those were certainly not the only possibilities Snape had that night. He made some questionable decisions before that…

And those decisions were made before he even knew Dumbledore was in the castle or what Dumbledore's current health status was. All he knew was that the castle was attacked and Dumbledore's presence was unknown. Helping, perhaps even in the background, in repelling the deatheaters does seem the wiser course of action.

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster
Snape's perspective could be:

1) Draco is unable to kill Dumbledore. He can die as a punishment.
2) Snape dies if he doesn't fulfill the Vow.
3) The DEs will kill Dumbledore (weak, maybe almost dying) anyway.
4) He still can be useful to the good side, as Voldies "most loyal servant".

Then he makes his decision.


I have to agree with that ^

I mean what if Snape went to Dumbledore and said "okay Albus, here is the deal..." and he told of what happened with Bellatrix and Narcissa. Dumbledore would have to make some choices that may have involved sacrficing himself. I mean after all of this, it would be sooooo Dumbledore to just sacrifice himself so Harry had a chance at beating Voldemort, he WANTED harry to see him be killed much like in the Odyssey when Athena makes Odysseus sooo mad that he has the strength to kill the suitors. He knows Harry has the drive to defeat Voldemort, he just needs the extra push when it comes time to do what is needed to be done. Anyway, back to Snape. Dumbledore sacrficing himself would give Snape some extra time to learn Voldemorts game plan and tell Harry so he can either dodge a few bullets before final confrontation, or be able to destroy Voldemort once and for all. That is why i think Snape has a bigger purpose and what not.

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster
Snape's perspective could be:

1) Draco is unable to kill Dumbledore. He can die as a punishment.
2) Snape dies if he doesn't fulfill the Vow.
3) The DEs will kill Dumbledore (weak, maybe almost dying) anyway.
4) He still can be useful to the good side, as Voldies "most loyal servant".

Then he makes his decision.


I have to agree with that ^

I mean what if Snape went to Dumbledore and said "okay Albus, here is the deal..." and he told of what happened with Bellatrix and Narcissa. Dumbledore would have to make some choices that may have involved sacrficing himself. I mean after all of this, it would be sooooo Dumbledore to just sacrifice himself so Harry had a chance at beating Voldemort, he WANTED harry to see him be killed much like in the Odyssey when Athena makes Odysseus sooo mad that he has the strength to kill the suitors. He knows Harry has the drive to defeat Voldemort, he just needs the extra push when it comes time to do what is needed to be done. Anyway, back to Snape. Dumbledore sacrficing himself would give Snape some extra time to learn Voldemorts game plan and tell Harry so he can either dodge a few bullets before final confrontation, or be able to destroy Voldemort once and for all. That is why i think Snape has a bigger purpose and what not.
I agree, there is still more that Harry has to learn, and the best person that he can learn it from would have to be Snape... ;)

Sorry if this has been Mention but I’ve only read the last page or so of this thread. (Must say really V. interesting)
But I think the definitive evidence that Snape is on the good side is on page 380 of the HBP, from the 'heated discussion' that Hagrid heard.
"'Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he- Snape-didn' wan' ter do it any more-"

Clearly Dumbledore has told Snape that his time is up and he will ultimately die soon, so Snape should kill him when the time comes, saving the life of Draco and Snape. Of Course Snape would think that his life and even Draco’s life weren't worth the death of Dumbledore’s.
Snape would not be arguing with Dumbledore if he was happy to have the mission to kill him. The tension’s a fight would bring on would only make it harder for Snape to kill Dumbledore.
So Snape is good.

Sorry if this has been Mention but I’ve only read the last page or so of this thread. (Must say really V. interesting)
But I think the definitive evidence that Snape is on the good side is on page 380 of the HBP, from the 'heated discussion' that Hagrid heard.


Clearly Dumbledore has told Snape that his time is up and he will ultimately die soon, so Snape should kill him when the time comes, saving the life of Draco and Snape. Of Course Snape would think that his life and even Draco’s life weren't worth the death of Dumbledore’s.
Snape would not be arguing with Dumbledore if he was happy to have the mission to kill him. The tension’s a fight would bring on would only make it harder for Snape to kill Dumbledore.
So Snape is good.

I agree, it's pretty clear that he wanted Snape to do something that he didn't want to do.

Also I found some info from OOTP that confirms that he wanted Harry to learn Occlumency... he was even angrier at Harry when he saw more of the vision [i.e.: The Department of Mysteries], then he was when Harry broke into his own memories... this made me think that he knew that Harry was capable of learning how to do Occlumency, but his stubborness and emotions got in the way. Also a line in HBP convinced me that he wanted Harry to learn it... "Blocked again and again and again until you learn how to shut your mouth and close your mind, Potter!"

Also I found some info from OOTP that confirms that he wanted Harry to learn Occlumency... he was even angrier at Harry when he saw more of the vision [i.e.: The Department of Mysteries], then he was when Harry broke into his own memories... this made me think that he knew that Harry was capable of learning how to do Occlumency, but his stubborness and emotions got in the way. Also a line in HBP convinced me that he wanted Harry to learn it... "Blocked again and again and again until you learn how to shut your mouth and close your mind, Potter!"I'm sure Snape wanted Harry to learn Occlumency, but he certainly wasn't any good at teaching it. Dumbledore confirms that Harry was bad at Occlumency, but when you think about it, he only has Snape's word for that. In a teaching situation, there is no point in simply yelling the same thing over and over again. No matter how often Snape told Harry to clear his mind, it wouldn't have helped unless he told him how. If a student has trouble understanding a concept, you explain the concept. If a student has trouble performing an action, you teach them techniques to help them do it. And a bit of encouragement goes a long way too, but Snape has never subscribed to that school of thought!

I'm sure Snape wanted Harry to learn Occlumency, but he certainly wasn't any good at teaching it. Dumbledore confirms that Harry was bad at Occlumency, but when you think about it, he only has Snape's word for that. In a teaching situation, there is no point in simply yelling the same thing over and over again. No matter how often Snape told Harry to clear his mind, it wouldn't have helped unless he told him how. If a student has trouble understanding a concept, you explain the concept. If a student has trouble performing an action, you teach them techniques to help them do it. And a bit of encouragement goes a long way too, but Snape has never subscribed to that school of thought!
I noticed that :lol:... he's never been good at that sort of thing... he needs to work on that...

Sorry if this has been Mention but I’ve only read the last page or so of this thread. (Must say really V. interesting)
But I think the definitive evidence that Snape is on the good side is on page 380 of the HBP, from the 'heated discussion' that Hagrid heard.


Clearly Dumbledore has told Snape that his time is up and he will ultimately die soon, so Snape should kill him when the time comes, saving the life of Draco and Snape. Of Course Snape would think that his life and even Draco’s life weren't worth the death of Dumbledore’s.
Snape would not be arguing with Dumbledore if he was happy to have the mission to kill him. The tension’s a fight would bring on would only make it harder for Snape to kill Dumbledore.
So Snape is good.This quote indicates a disagreement between Snape and Dumbledore. If however this disagreement is about who kills who is very much debatable.

I consider it unlikely. The choice of words is very strange if it was a disagreement about a future action. Did’ wan’ter do it any more usually refers to something which a person is doing (and wants to stop doing), not about a future action. Could it be a referral to a previous arrangement? Could be, but that raises the question why we never heard about it earlier and more important, there should be a reason for Snape to change a previous arrangement at that time. We don’t learn such reason, nor is there anything happening at that time which could cause Snape to wish for a change of a previous arrangement.

Even stranger in this scenario are these words: Dumbledore took too much for granted. In this theory Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him. A tough question to ask. But Snape apparently thought that Dumbledore didn’t see how difficult it was what Dumbledore asked. Too much for granted, like it was a perfectly normal thing to ask, to ask of someone to kill your headmaster. That’s a far too flippant remark for such a grave request.

An other thing is that Dumbledore was angry according to Hagrid. When have we seen Dumbledore angry? When the safety of students was concerned. How does Dumbledore react if his orders are not followed or questioned? With disappointment and things like that. Compare his reaction to McGonagall when Crouch received the dementor’s kiss or to Harry when he had done nothing to get Slughorn’s memory. And angry Dumbledore because Snape doesn’t want to follow orders doesn’t fit with the Dumbledore the books show us.

There is more: the conversation Hagrid over heard continued with Dumbledore telling Snape he had agreed to do it and that Snape should make inquiries into his own house, Slytherin. This last part has to make sense in this conversation. If this conversation is about who kills who this last part makes no sense whatsoever. In effect Dumbledore would be saying:
Listen Snape, we have agreed that you kill me and that agreement stands, like it or not. And you should make inquiries into your own house, Slytherin.
Just makes no sense.

And finally this whole arrangement makes no sense at this point. Dumbledore’s main object is the defeat of Voldemort. Crucial part of that is to obtain knowledge of the horcruxes. Dumbledore would not agree to die before he even had asked Harry to help him acquiring this knowledge, let alone before Harry had secured Slughorn’s memory. Dumbledore needed that memory and he needed to explain to Harry what was going on and what to do. Making arrangements which could mean his death and leaving Harry with no clue whatsoever? Not likely.

staniw, I see what you are saying and I'm well aware that love for the Snape character probable clouds my judgement just a little and the fight between Dumbledore and Snape is not the end of discussion of weather Snape is on the side of good or evil.
But the idea that the fight was over Snape making inquiries into his own house, was actually Harry's idea and Snape making inquiries was in fact not mention in the fight between Snape and Dumbledore.
I just see the fight going along the lines of Snape saying that the more he thinks about the more he relies that Dumbledore still has so much more to do before he dies and that he now doesn't want the job of killing him to save Draco and himself. And of course Dumbledore would be angry not only will Snape’s discussion mean the death of Draco (who is a student) but also of a friend (Snape)
Oh and Fawkesfan1 yes that is a good piece of evidence to prove Snape’s good in OotP.

staniw, I see what you are saying and I'm well aware that love for the Snape character probable clouds my judgement just a little and the fight between Dumbledore and Snape is not the end of discussion of weather Snape is on the side of good or evil.
But the idea that the fight was over Snape making inquiries into his own house, was actually Harry's idea and Snape making inquiries was in fact not mention in the fight between Snape and Dumbledore.
I just see the fight going along the lines of Snape saying that the more he thinks about the more he relies that Dumbledore still has so much more to do before he dies and that he now doesn't want the job of killing him to save Draco and himself. And of course Dumbledore would be angry not only will Snape’s discussion mean the death of Draco (who is a student) but also of a friend (Snape)
Oh and Fawkesfan1 yes that is a good piece of evidence to prove Snape’s good in OotP.
Thanks, I just thought that the line of OOTP makes a lot more sense now then it did then. I used to think that he wanted Harry to know more about it... but after what he had said in HBP, I believe that he wanted him to learn Occlumency.

I'm sure Snape wanted Harry to learn Occlumency, but he certainly wasn't any good at teaching it. Dumbledore confirms that Harry was bad at Occlumency, but when you think about it, he only has Snape's word for that. In a teaching situation, there is no point in simply yelling the same thing over and over again. No matter how often Snape told Harry to clear his mind, it wouldn't have helped unless he told him how. If a student has trouble understanding a concept, you explain the concept. If a student has trouble performing an action, you teach them techniques to help them do it. And a bit of encouragement goes a long way too, but Snape has never subscribed to that school of thought!

So he's a bad teacher. But still can be working for the side of good.

So he's a bad teacher. But still can be working for the side of good.I never said he wasn't! (Well, I've toyed with most of the ideas about Snape and still can't make up my mind, but I'm inclined to think he was "Dumbledore's man" and he's certainly "a gift of a character" (JKR).

I'm ascribing to the "Snape is a good guy" theory. I've read this thread, and have to agree with the rest of you who support this side of the idea. Snape has to be good... the evidence just points that way.

What convinced me most was that during his flight from Hogwarts, he doesn't kill Harry. Lord (not LV) knows that Harry has aggrivated Snape enough that a Death Eater would have no qualms about extinguishing a little pipsqueak like Harry, even if LV said "no, he's mine." There's only so much vocal abuse that a person can take. Snape had to have been carrying out a plan he had concocted with Dumbledore to keep Harry safe and at Hogwarts.

AND... I don't think that a Death Eater would EVER have let Harry know that he was the Half-Blood Prince. That kind of information would destabilize his position in the Death Eaters, I think, and possibly get him killed since the Death Eaters are all about "pure-blood" junk.


My first post here! *waves*

What convinced me most was that during his flight from Hogwarts, he doesn't kill Harry. Lord (not LV) knows that Harry has aggrivated Snape enough that a Death Eater would have no qualms about extinguishing a little pipsqueak like Harry, even if LV said "no, he's mine." There's only so much vocal abuse that a person can take. Snape had to have been carrying out a plan he had concocted with Dumbledore to keep Harry safe and at Hogwarts.

:welcome: heartnut! Happy posting!

I agree entirely with your post. Though, for me, the clincher was how upset Snape seemed to be after he had killed Dumbledore. A true Death Eater should be gloating, after a success like that...

the clincher was how upset Snape seemed to be after he had killed Dumbledore. A true Death Eater should be gloating, after a success like that...

Yes, his words do look like he's hidding something. Probably all the pain he felt for having killed Dumbledore... (:clap: he's a goody!!!)

I agree entirely with your post. Though, for me, the clincher was how upset Snape seemed to be after he had killed Dumbledore. A true Death Eater should be gloating, after a success like that...


Yeah! i think that from what we know of Snape, if he was killing an enemy,(one who rejected him for the DADA job so many times, and that really would have got Snape’s goat) he would have made at the very least a biting remark before he killed them. But Snape said nothing, showing just how upset he was by his lack of words.

I'm ascribing to the "Snape is a good guy" theory. I've read this thread, and have to agree with the rest of you who support this side of the idea. Snape has to be good... the evidence just points that way.

What convinced me most was that during his flight from Hogwarts, he doesn't kill Harry. Lord (not LV) knows that Harry has aggrivated Snape enough that a Death Eater would have no qualms about extinguishing a little pipsqueak like Harry, even if LV said "no, he's mine." There's only so much vocal abuse that a person can take. Snape had to have been carrying out a plan he had concocted with Dumbledore to keep Harry safe and at Hogwarts.

AND... I don't think that a Death Eater would EVER have let Harry know that he was the Half-Blood Prince. That kind of information would destabilize his position in the Death Eaters, I think, and possibly get him killed since the Death Eaters are all about "pure-blood" junk.


My first post here! *waves*



:clap: :welcome: :clap:
Great first post, never thought about the HBP aspect of the 'Snape-not-killin'-Harry' scene...:tu:
I'm qiute new here too, but this is a grat thead to start with, as everyone agrees that Snape is good and stuff... Sorry, just gor home from work and my head is a bit funny, but anyways: Snape is like s box of chocolate- and we won't get to open him until 7.

(Sorry- that came out sounding a little weird, but as I said, my head is in a wierd state right now)

I don´t think so. When was that supposed to happen? When Harry was born, Snape was still a Death Eater. When he switched sides, the Potters were already in hiding and seeing the history of Snape and James I don´t think a) Snape knew where the hiding place was and b) James would never have wanted Snape to have anything to do with Harry. Sirius is Harry´s godfather, he was the first and foremost choice to be responsible for Harry.


Even though Snape was a DE, I still think Lily trusted him. And IMO, Lily wanted to make the UV — so she set out to find Snape. And yeah, I agree with you about the James statement. However, Lily cloud've just kept it secret from him, right? And Sirius, well.. I don't think he wanted anything to do with the Snape-Lily-James love triangle. And I mean, Snape made an UV with Narcissa — just because you trust someone doesn't mean you love them. I'm pretty sure the Narcissa-Snape UV is just like the Lily-Snape UV — a promise to protect their sons.

Which brings me to my next theory: Snape's weakness is woman :lol:

Even though Snape was a DE, I still think Lily trusted him. And IMO, Lily wanted to make the UV — so she set out to find Snape. And yeah, I agree with you about the James statement. However, Lily cloud've just kept it secret from him, right? And Sirius, well.. I don't think he wanted anything to do with the Snape-Lily-James love triangle. And I mean, Snape made an UV with Narcissa — just because you trust someone doesn't mean you love them. I'm pretty sure the Narcissa-Snape UV is just like the Lily-Snape UV — a promise to protect their sons.

Which brings me to my next theory: Snape's weakness is woman :lol:

Hmm, that does make a lot of sense, it will be interesting to see if there is any weight in the Snape-Lily theory in Book 7... :).

[QUOTE=Sevily;4067125]Even though Snape was a DE, I still think Lily trusted him. Do you really think Lily was that irresponsible and foolhardy? I mean, apart from the fact that I steadfast believe she truly loved JAMES and whatever she had felt for Snape before it wasn´t more than friendship, she was a mother. I´m not a mother myself but most of my friends have children, and I am a godmother. I cannot think that Lily, in a situation where she knows that Voldemort is after them, would trust any DE at the least. Even if it was a childhood friend once. Her childs safety and wellbeing comes first.
And yeah, I agree with you about the James statement. However, Lily cloud've just kept it secret from him, right? Why would she? Keeping something crucial like that secret from her husband? Her son´s father? Following her own agenda regarding their child´s safety. Sorry, that does not fit with the image of Lily I got from reading the books.

And Sirius, well.. I don't think he wanted anything to do with the Snape-Lily-James love triangle. There was none. I see where you are coming from but I just don´t buy it. I admit I am not into the Snape-Lily discussion. I can imagine that Snape felt deeply for Lily, even loved her, but I don´t see anything in canon to hint towards Lily reciprocating any such feelings. She was a nice, decent woman. Therefore she had a go at James when he bullied Snape (OOtP, Snape´s worst memory), although I personally think this was the beginning attraction to James on Lily´s part. She knows how James and Snape stood to each other and even if she had once friendly feelings for him she would never make a decision about their safety or make such a move with Snape behind James´s back. What would that say about Lily´s personality?

Which brings me to my next theory: Snape's weakness is woman :lol:Possible. But if so, than it was one-sided on Snape´s part.

I really don´t want to get into a Lily-Snape discussion here. That would be for another thread.

I am definately in the Snape-is-good camp. I think Snape regretted that he had reported the (part)-prophecy to Voldemort, especially when he found out who Voldemort was after, but I don´t think their was an UV involved, especially because Snape was still a DE at that time.

I think it's time to leave Lily's feelings out of this. The thread is about Snape's role in book 7.

In re: whether there was a plan beforehand or not, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time I read these passages{the 1st being too dumbfounded to figure anything}, I saw it as pretty simple: Snape made an UV, unwillingly as we can surmise from his hand trembling or whatever it did. When faced with the scene on the tower, he quickly decided to save his own skin by killing Dumbledore because he himself would die if he did not. I do admit there might have been other things that could have been done but for the sake of my argument I'll keep it simple. Then, I felt that the look of revulsion on snape's face was more like "I can't believe you would have gotten yourself in this mess and therefore put me in the position of making this choice" Later when chasing Harry, when does Snape finally lose control of his emotions, after saving Harry from another's curse? When Harry calls him a COWARD, which is exactly what he was for choosing his life over dumbledore's.I do agree that D's plea of Severus might have had to do with the fact that Snape had deduced the presence of HArry and saved him by hurrying everyone off.

I'm a strong believer in Snape working for himself. There is no way he could cover up his identity without being discovered by either Dumbeldore or Voldy, the two most powerful wizards of all time.

I'm a strong believer in Snape working for himself. There is no way he could cover up his identity without being discovered by either Dumbeldore or Voldy, the two most powerful wizards of all time.

I'm nio sure I follow your reasoning. If Snape is working for one of the two, then he only has to fool one of them. If he is working for himself, he needs to fool BOTH of them.

If Snape's not good, then the good side is in trouble. He's a brilliant wizard, reacts well in a crisis--he's a power player. One has to keep in mind that we have not only Voldemort but all the Death Eaters to deal with. Harry may have the power to defeat Voldy but he can't match him for sheer knowledge and finesse of wizardry, and I can't see that he has any special advantage other than experience and a good dose of luck thus far against any of the Death Eaters. Dumbledore was our expert in magic, both in knowledge and practice. Now that he's gone--if we lose Snape as well, we're in the hurt box.

Something else that occurred to me: I heard someone somewhere speculate that Snape and Dumbledore had an Unbreakable Vow. It doesn't seem to me that someone as trusting as AD would do that to someone. On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean Snape wasn't held in some other type of binding magical contract, such as a life debt or something.

Something else that occurred to me: I heard someone somewhere speculate that Snape and Dumbledore had an Unbreakable Vow. It doesn't seem to me that someone as trusting as AD would do that to someone. On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean Snape wasn't held in some other type of binding magical contract, such as a life debt or something.

Yes, I very so much believe Snape is on the good side. Reading the book the very first time however, my reaction was How could he? That evil wizard! I hate him, he killed Dumbledore..he lied to them all! But having read many theories on websites, such as Dumbledoreisnotdead.com, and re-reading the novel myself, I have discovered things that make me believe Snape is on the good side.

At the end of the book, Snape could have killed Harry, if not killed him, stunned him or something and taken him to Voldemort. Snape is stronger then Harry. Well, maybe not, but he does know a lot of spells, and I think could have easily overpowered Harry at that time. No one else was around, he could easily have stunned him and took him off to Voldemort. But he did not. One death eater used the Crucio curse on Harry. It would not have killed him, right away. Why did Snape stop the death eater? He could have watched Harry suffer a little before telling him to stop. "He's for the dark Lord." Snape said. So why not capture Harry and bring him to the dark lord? He didn't, when I believe he could have.

Snape is indeed, good enough at Occlumens to trick Voldemort. Dumbledore trusted Snape, and he usually is not wrong at the people he places his trust in. And he, is also good at Occlumens himself. We don't know everything. Maybe Dumbledore knew more. Maybe Snape was Dumbledore's spy. Maybe he asked Snape to kill him. Maybe Dumbledore's weak words of "Severus..Please" where really, "Please kill me..like you said you would."

Here's a quote I found on Dumbledoreisnotdead.com which furthers my belief..

I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking -- well, arguin'. ... I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore ... Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it."

This shows that Snape has been agreeing to follow Dumbledore's orders..but doesn't want to. But Dumbledore is confident the plan that Snape did agree to will proceed.
I wish we knew more of what Hagrid heard..

Also why did Fawkes not come to Dumbledore's rescue? He has before. And he came after Dumbledore's death. Why did he not come earlier? Maybe he knew what had to happen. Maybe Dumbledore told Fawkes what had to happen, and Fawkes must not come to his rescue.

We also must remember that Harry's point of view will be filled with hatred of Snape. They've always hated eachother and loathed eachother. And Harry hasn't stopped to consider everything. And he doesn't know everything. To all the characters it seems Snape is evil. It makes one wonder, why, if Dumbledore DID plan this, why did he tell no one else? I believe to make it more convincing. And of course, very few would have liked the idea. It would seem more convincing to enemies as well. As, there would be no chance of anyone making a slip of what they knew Dumbledore to have told Snape what to do.

I could be wrong of course. It's up to J.K.Rowling. And only she knows what will happen. But reading many of the clues in the books makes me think they are there for a reason, and they have a meaning. When book seven comes out, will finally know. For now, it's fun to dicuss it, and I enjoy reading everyone's theories.

Snape is niether good nor bad he is human. He might redeem himself by saving harry but will he join the good side? I don't know.

I agree. I think Snape is a good enough Occlumens to lie to Voldemort, and Voldemort would believe Snape because he is overconfident in his own Legilimency. I think Dumbledore, being much humbler than Voldemort, is more likely to doubt his ability to detect a lie. He would rely on something that logic showed to be a perfect reason to trust Snape.

Exactly. I think there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Snape is evil, but that is the reason I think he simply can't be.

I saw it as pretty simple: Snape made an UV, unwillingly as we can surmise from his hand trembling or whatever it did. When faced with the scene on the tower, he quickly decided to save his own skin by killing Dumbledore because he himself would die if he did not.
The whole Spinners End scene was written in such a way as to prevent the reader knowing what Draco's task was. There is also an implication that Snape is bluffing - feeling his way forward and trying to make out he knows more than he does. It has been argued that Snape is a Slytherin and wouldn't risk his own neck by making an Unbreakable Vow without knowing what it was for. But it's clear from Bellatrix's little show, that there is a sub-group of Death Eaters, perhaps a large group, who don't trust Snape. They resent the cosy existence he has enjoyed at Hogwarts while they have been imprisoned or risking their lives for Voldemort. The last thing Snape, the double agent needs, is to have these people poisoning Voldemort's mind against him. Taking the Vow bought him another year as a trusted Death Eater and keeping the Vow sealed the bargain and secured his lifelong status as Voldemort's man. This could be the case regardless of where Snape's true loyalties lie. His newfound status as the DE who killed Dumbledore, will undoubtedly give him many opportunities to sabotage Voldemort if that's what he wants to do.

I go back and forth about Snape. Can't decide if he will be good or evil. After killing Dumbledore I am inclined to not trust him....he would have to make one heck of a sacrifice....or murder someone close to LV.

LB~ :gryff:

The whole Spinners End scene was written in such a way as to prevent the reader knowing what Draco's task was. There is also an implication that Snape is bluffing - feeling his way forward and trying to make out he knows more than he does. It has been argued that Snape is a Slytherin and wouldn't risk his own neck by making an Unbreakable Vow without knowing what it was for. But it's clear from Bellatrix's little show, that there is a sub-group of Death Eaters, perhaps a large group, who don't trust Snape. They resent the cosy existence he has enjoyed at Hogwarts while they have been imprisoned or risking their lives for Voldemort. The last thing Snape, the double agent needs, is to have these people poisoning Voldemort's mind against him. Taking the Vow bought him another year as a trusted Death Eater and keeping the Vow sealed the bargain and secured his lifelong status as Voldemort's man. This could be the case regardless of where Snape's true loyalties lie. His newfound status as the DE who killed Dumbledore, will undoubtedly give him many opportunities to sabotage Voldemort if that's what he wants to do.

This is my stance. I think that although Snape hates Harry which he does, but he respects Dumbledore. I think that in the end Harry will do something that sets him apart from James and ultimately earn the respect of Snape. (highly unlikely though) Well have to see what happens. But personally I don't think LV is the worlds greatest Legelmens. I thinks its DD. And after having to either fool DD or LV or both if he is working by himself then Snape may be the greatest Occlumens and possibly Legilmens. I also think that someone had to teach him. It was DD in my opinion which gave DD much needed info into the phsyche of Snape as he had hoped would happen with Snape teaching HArry. But who knows. I feel more like a centaur. Im spending al this time predicting and i think i could be completly wrong.

I think that in the end Harry will do something that sets him apart from James and ultimately earn the respect of Snape. (highly unlikely though)I agree that it's unlikely. If Snape hasn't noticed in the course of 6 years that Harry is a very different person from James, then it's going to take something really huge to open his eyes. And I don't want the ending to be sappy - that would be very wrong where Snape is concerned!

I think Idabomb333 makes an excellent point about DD relying on more than his legilimency to trust Snape. And if Snape did learn to be occlumens from DD and not on his own or from someone else, that would give DD even more of an edge. I think we need to also ask, not only what DD knows but WHY he was so reluctant to give anyone more details. Obviously it has generated alot of speculation and is good storywriting to keep us guessing but is this the only reason for him not to have explained up til now?

The last thing Snape, the double agent needs, is to have these people poisoning Voldemort's mind against him. Taking the Vow bought him another year as a trusted Death Eater and keeping the Vow sealed the bargain and secured his lifelong status as Voldemort's man.This is on the assumption that Snape actually cares that some of Voldemort’s followers doesn’t trust him.
We have no way of knowing but what we can look at the way he acts with Dumbledore and the order. We have the same situation: Dumbledore trusts him (like Voldemort), the rest don’t trust him on their own accord but on Dumbledore’s word. Do we see Snape making an effort to gain trust of the others? No, we don’t. This makes it unlikely he would wish to make this kind of efforts for the other deatheaters. Voldemort’s trust is important, not of the others. We see Snape being in Dumbledore’s trust and in Voldemort’s trust and not caring if their respectively followers trust him as well. Taking vows to guarantee trust of people whom he don’t really care if they trust him doesn’t make that much sense, the vow is a much too serious business for that.

Snape learning occlumency: it has to be Voldemort who taught him, if any taught him at all. Voldemort is the one who sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore. He would have taken precautions that Snape could not be found out, because Voldemort believes Snape is loyal to him. Voldemort doesn’t underestimate Dumbledore, he will have seen to it that Snape was armed against a wizard with the powers Dumbledore has.

This is on the assumption that Snape actually cares that some of Voldemort’s followers doesn’t trust him.If any of the people who don't trust him have Voldemort's ear and can persuade Voldemort that Snape is betraying him, Snape's days would be numbered (and not in double digits). Snape would be a fool to disregard the gossip, and we all know he's no fool. The Order members look up to Dumbledore and respect his opinions. I don't think we can say the same for the Death Eaters, who most certainly joined up for less noble reasons. They fear Voldemort, rather than trusting him, and we know that he trusts nobody (Jo said so).

Exactly. I think there is a lot of evidence suggesting that Snape is evil, but that is the reason I think he simply can't be.

I agree. JK might be leading us into something like red herring, as well as shown in HArry's point of view. I mean, I love Snape's character. He's really mysterious. You don't know where his loyalties truly lie. But at the end of book 6, Snape turned out to be evil. But for me, everything that happened in the first 6 books will have much more sense if Snape is just working as a spy and he belongs to the good side. Yeah, think of it. You will surely love his character after the last book. We will find out everything Snape did for the good side.

Dumbledore's death turned out to be Snape's fault. But analyzing what happened, we can think that Snape did it because it is a part of a Plan of Dumbledore's. Evidences really point out to Snape being evil but let's try to put Snape in the good side and you'll surely find answers to his actions in the previous books... That would make a better story!:D

This is on the assumption that Snape actually cares that some of Voldemort’s followers doesn’t trust him.
We have no way of knowing but what we can look at the way he acts with Dumbledore and the order. We have the same situation: Dumbledore trusts him (like Voldemort), the rest don’t trust him on their own accord but on Dumbledore’s word. Do we see Snape making an effort to gain trust of the others? No, we don’t. This makes it unlikely he would wish to make this kind of efforts for the other deatheaters. Voldemort’s trust is important, not of the others. We see Snape being in Dumbledore’s trust and in Voldemort’s trust and not caring if their respectively followers trust him as well. Taking vows to guarantee trust of people whom he don’t really care if they trust him doesn’t make that much sense, the vow is a much too serious business for that.Good point, but I think we can´t compare the situations. Dumbledore was a man who was able to trust, and he trusted Snape obviously completely. Snape knew that. Dumbledore gave second chances, he was able to forgive mistakes. I get the feeling Dumbledore´s trust was incredibly important to Snape. But he doesn´t care whether the Order members trusted him on their own accord or on Dumbledore´s word. They worked together with because Dumbledore trusts him.

Voldemort on the other hand, is not really a trusting personality. I imagine the DEs have to prove their loyalty on a day to day basis. No second chances, no mistakes allowed. Snape knows that. Voldemort´s trust is a question of live or die for Snape. And I think Snape is aware that every behaviour that could be interpreted as at least questionable would be reported to Voldemort and could cost him his position or even his life. Normally, Snape wouldn´t care about his fellow DEs, but to be effective (whether as a DE or as spy for Dumbledore) he has to work together with them from time to time. He is dependant on information from them. If they mistrust him, they could sabotage all his efforts.

Snape learning occlumency: it has to be Voldemort who taught him, if any taught him at all. Voldemort is the one who sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore. He would have taken precautions that Snape could not be found out, because Voldemort believes Snape is loyal to him. Voldemort doesn’t underestimate Dumbledore, he will have seen to it that Snape was armed against a wizard with the powers Dumbledore has.That´s what I think as well. Voldemort must have taught Snape a few things while the latter was his DE.

If any of the people who don't trust him have Voldemort's ear and can persuade Voldemort that Snape is betraying him, Snape's days would be numbered (and not in double digits). Snape would be a fool to disregard the gossip, and we all know he's no fool. The Order members look up to Dumbledore and respect his opinions. I don't think we can say the same for the Death Eaters, who most certainly joined up for less noble reasons. They fear Voldemort, rather than trusting him, and we know that he trusts nobody (Jo said so).Snape keeps his eye on the ball. For his position keeping Dumbledore’s and Voldemort’s trust is important, he will (and we have seen this) try to get their trust.

He might, and is, be bothered if other deatheaters don’t trust him. But his mains objective will be to be sure to have Voldemort’s trust.

Enter the vow: it might ensure that doubting deatheaters do trust him more. Could Snape expect it to be successful: Iffy at best. It doesn’t change Narcissa’s trust and it doesn’t seem to change Bella’s trust as well; if we look at Draco’s learning occlumency. The results of gaining more trust from other deatheaters aren’t there, so it is rather dubious to cite this as a motivation to taking the vow, because it failed.

But back to Snape’s main objective: ensuring Voldemort’s trust. This talking about plans which Voldemort doesn’t want discussed, this taking of vow’s to promise to fulfil plans without Voldemort’s bidding are not the actions of a 100% trustworthy person. Voldemort could reasonable be royally ****** off about this taking of the vow, something he could find out in Snape’s eyes, with people like Bella and Wormtail present. The taking of the vow could hurt the trust Voldemort has in Snape.

Then we have Snape taking a vow to ensure deatheaters trust him more while taking the risk that Voldemort himself trust him less; all to ensure that Voldemort wouldn’t distrust him. That just doesn’t add up: Snape would take care that anything he does to become more trustworthy for other deatheaters couldn’t harm the trust Voldemort has in him. He didn’t make sure of this when he took the vow, so I believe that taking the vow was not a complicated way of ensuring Voldemort’s trust.

But you are right, Voldemort trusts nobody. Dumbledore even tells Harry that deatheaters who think they have his complete trust are deluded. For this reason I find all scenario's which have Dumbledore put Snape in a position close to Voldemort so he can effectively betray him more then a bit iffy. It won't work, and more importantly, Dumbledore doesn't expect it to work.

I think it is highly unlikely that Voldemort taught Snape occlumency. If he is so distrusting, why would Voldemort hand Snape a tool which Snape could use to hide things from him?

Voldemort may be arrogant, but he's also careful. I think it is more likely that he thought Dumbledore so trusting and honorable that he wouldn't use legilimency. It is apparently not used by the Wizengamot.

I think it is highly unlikely that Voldemort taught Snape occlumency. If he is so distrusting, why would Voldemort hand Snape a tool which Snape could use to hide things from him?

Voldemort may be arrogant, but he's also careful. I think it is more likely that he thought Dumbledore so trusting and honorable that he wouldn't use legilimency. It is apparently not used by the Wizengamot.
Voldemort teaching Snape Legilimency/Occlumency is a pure assumption of course, but I think it could still be a possibility.

Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. That is stressed out several times throughout the series if I´m not mistaken. Voldemort knows Dumbledore is a good Legilimens. And, while DD is a trusting person, he is no fool. It is known that Snape was a DE and Dumbledore would want to make sure that he really switched sides before entrusting him with a teaching post at Hogwarts.

Thus, when we assume that Voldemort sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore he would have to chose the lesser of two evils so to say:

1) Taking the risk that Dumbledore uncovers Snape
2) Teaching him a powerful ability which Snape could possibly use against him one day.

I think it really possible that LV chose the second option because he really wanted information on Dumbledore, the only wizard he ever feared.

Snape knowing Occlumency is a double-edged sword. Yes, it is beneficial from Voldemort's point of view because Dumbledore would not be able to use Legillimency on Snape. On the other hand, Voldemort would never know what Snape may be hiding from him. Just as Draco had Bellatrix teach him Occlumency, I believe Snape learned it from someone other than Voldemort. I just don't see Voldemort as being much of a helpful kind of guy, willing to teach his Death Eaters any special skills.