Why did Snape want to see Tonks' new patronus

"I meant for Hagrid to get the message," said Tonks, frowning.
"Hagrid was late for the start-of-term feast, just like Potter here, so I took it instead. And incidentally," said Snape, standing back to allow Harry to pass him, "I was interested to see your new Patronus."

Fuelpagan quoted this from HBP, I noticed it in the "Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?" thread. I thought if Snape was using Felix at that time, why would he need to use it just to see Tonks' patronus? What was so important that Snape needed to see?

I don't think it was anything else then Snape wanting to enjoy another persons misery. Of course he knew Tonks hadn't been happy since everything that had happened in OotP. He wanted to see her patronus to make fun of her, he always seems to enjoy to s****** and gloat.

he may not have even gone out of his way to see it, it could have been more like a "oh new patronus, tonks? thats interesting" instead of a "oh i heard tonks has a new patronus and must hunt it down to see what it is" situation. He probably said it because it would be a mean thing to say

Yeah, I think Snape just said it to be mean. I don't think he really wanted to actually see Tonks' new patronus. Mind you, I haven't read the theory on Snape using Felix, but if he was (and I don't think he was), I'd think it was for something other than getting another opportunity to be mean to Harry, or see Tonks' patronus. Maybe something on the way to the Hogwarts' gates? I don't know.

I don't think it was anything else then Snape wanting to enjoy another persons misery. Of course he knew Tonks hadn't been happy since everything that had happened in OotP. He wanted to see her patronus to make fun of her, he always seems to enjoy to s****** and gloat.But Snape was in the Order at the time and I never noticed him making fun of anyone except Harry, Harry's father, and Sirius. I don't think he would go out of the way just to make fun of an Order member for no reason when he is in the Order.

he may not have even gone out of his way to see it, it could have been more like a "oh new patronus, tonks? thats interesting" instead of a "oh i heard tonks has a new patronus and must hunt it down to see what it is" situation. He probably said it because it would be a mean thing to say
I've never seen Snape be that excited over anything except getting Harry in trouble or when he killed Dumbledore and revealed himself as the Half-Blood Prince to Harry.

If he took Felix what would he need to know from Tonks? Did he talk to Tonks after Harry went inside Hogwarts about something?

But Snape was in the Order at the time and I never noticed him making fun of anyone except Harry, Harry's father, and Sirius. I don't think he would go out of the way just to make fun of an Order member for no reason when he is in the Order.


IMO Snape has never had much feeling for anyone except himself, it didn't matter to him of Tonks was a fellow order member. She was obviously hurt by something, it was apparent by the way she looked and acted. He just wanted to rub it in some more. He has always been like this as far as we have seen, he doesn't care about other people's feelings (much).

I've never seen Snape be that excited over anything except getting Harry in trouble or when he killed Dumbledore and revealed himself as the Half-Blood Prince to Harry.



I don't think he was hopping around hoping to find someone to insult more like he is just an unpleasant person who does not mind crushing people he feels are inferior. It was a zing and he said it because there was an opportunity to do so.

I think it was just coincidence that he was the one who took the message.

I also think it was less an insult to Tonks than to Lupin. "It looks weak" isn't so much an insult of her magic skills, seeing as a corporeal patronus is good enough - it's an insult to its form. Snape hates Lupin, and as such he mocks Tonks for seeing Lupin as her protector.

I've never seen Snape be that excited over anything except getting Harry in trouble or when he killed Dumbledore and revealed himself as the Half-Blood Prince to Harry.


I don't believe Snape was that excited when he killed Dumbledore. And I shall agree with most people here, he probably just said it because it was a way to bring up the topic of her patronus. However that begs the question, 'why did he word it the way that he did?'

I think he just wanted to hurt her.He wanted to make fun of her in front of Harry.He is not a nice wizard.

I also think he just happened to see it. Snape, being Snape HAD to make an insulting comment. If he had complimented her, it would have seemed out of Character. Tonks is also seriously involved with Remus Lupin--one of Snape's "Enemies". He will dispise/hate Remus until the day he dies. Even though Remus has been respectful to him in that he addresses him by Professor Snape, or Severus, Snape still hates him for being a member of "The Marauders". Remus, a WEREWOLF, has Tonks, a Woman who LOVES him and has stayed by his side, despite his infliction. Most people would run the other way. He may be a nice Person, but, they don't want to take the chance. Even though Remus would never flaunt Tonks and say "Look at me Snape, I've got a Woman and you have no one", Snape MUST be envious on some level. Even though I don't see him ever settling down, getting Married and having Children, a part of him must be jealous. Here is a guy who could very easily kill a person when he transforms into a Werewolf. We KNOW it would be unintentional and Remus would feel guilty. I also see him saying "take my life...I'm too much of a risk" or fleeing to a remote Island so he can't hurt anyone.
What I'm trying to say is Snape realizes he is JUDGED by many. People would rather trust their life and future to a man who was bitten by a Werewolf, than Severus Snape, a former Death Eater. He knew that Women would never give him the time of day because they don't want to be judged for being associated with a Slytherin, especially one with Severus Snape's reputation.
In short, he HATES Remus. Tonks dares to date him--though I don't see her as being Snape's type. Since Tonks is DATING--and probably Engaged to Remus--she is now a wrongful target of his hate.
Even if her Patronus was a Unicorn, for him to say "Hey, that is a wicked Patronus" would be giving Remus Lupin credit. It would be giving him a break--which Snape refuses to do. So, no, I don't believe he was there to see her Patronus.
I think he overheard Draco gloating to Crabbe and Goyle about "giving Potter a bloody nose" or something. He wanted a chance to gloat, to make Harry miserable. So even if Hagrid WAS at the table, I see him saying "Hagrid, enjoy dinner, let me help Mr. Potter". He wanted to get Harry while he was down--he wanted to lecture him and give him HELL for being late, even though it was Draco's fault.

He will despise Lupin till the day he dies
He doesnt necesarrily hate Lupin. He noticed that Lupin was the only one that didnt laugh. He just seems to dislike him for hanging with James's group

Snape just came across it, realized that it must be because of Lupin that it changed and threw an insult. He did critisize Sirius and he was in Order. So he probaly just didn't like Lupin because he hung out with Siruis and James.

Snape's appearance at the gate in Book Six is an echo of Book Two--another time when Harry went missing. Interesting that it was not Harry's Head of House who was the one first on the scene to meet him and ascertain his well-being, but Snape.

It is possible Snape preferred to miss all the glorious food at start of term feast for the extremely dubious pleasure of interaction with a boy he disliked (and in Book 6, also with a woman who was pining over a man he disliked just as much--if not more.) The state of Tonks' Patronus could have given Snape not only a clue about her mooning over Lupin [pun intended] but also perhaps provide a rough gauge of her magical strength and fitness in carrying out her Order duties.

That fitness would be very important, particularly in her duties overseeing Harry's safety. That fitness would matter to Snape only if--in spite of his obvious disdain for both of them--he actually cared that Harry wasn't dead in a ditch.

i dont think he so much wanted to see it... but he just did. that was so mean...to comment on it like that though. cuz he clearly knew about the hwole tonks lupin connection and if he didnt he figured it out then.

I don't really see this as related to whether or not Snape took Felix Felices.

However, he obviously (since he was an Order member) would have already been told WHAT form (as in Remus/Werewolf) her Patronus took BEFORE he went to the gates. ALL Order members would need to be informed about a patronus change as soon as it was first noticed. The very POINT of the patrounus messages is that they cannot be 'faked'. So as soon as her patronus first changed - every single Order member would have been informed - as a matter of security. How else would they know a message was from Tonks unless they were informed.

Altho' from the sounds of the posts so far on this thread my opinion might be taken badly - I actually think Snape might have been telling her the truth - that her PATRONUS was weak - not that Remus was weak - but that her MAGIC was weak.

Harry could not see it distinctly enough to figure out more than it was a four-legged animal (altho' he apparently figured more than he thought, since at least his guess at Padfoot shows that it looked somewhat canine and not for instance cat-like). Additionally, it would seem that it took her patronus a rather long time to get up to the castle - not a whole lot faster than Harry and Tonks' walking pace.

I think Snape was on her case about how SHE was being weak over Remus. A call to 'snap out of it'. Tonks was apparently WEAK in her magic at the time. She can't metamorph and apparently she couldn't apparate since she WALKED Harry to the gates. (note how worried she was the year before just getting Harry out of the Knight Bus and into the Hogwarts Gates and the BUs was parked just outside). Meanwhile, she had been Harry's sole protection on the long walk to the safety of the Hogwarts gates after a summer FULL of disappearances.

Just think what COULD have happened if Draco had found enough time alone and an isolated fireplace to floo Aunt Bella before the feast?

After all, Harry doesn't get to the Great Hall until time for dessert - he has been 'missing' for quite some time. The full length of the dinner part of the feast, then add in time for the other students to get to the school by carriage and for the sorting of at least 40 first years. The sorting alone must take at least an hour! Harry was last seen by his friends probably over 2 hours ago. I'll bet that it was actually a bit of a relief for teachers to overhear Draco bragging.

Note Snape's other comment to Tonks, made as he closes the gate. That Harry is now SAFE. I think the whole episode is about Tonks allowing her feelings to get in the way of her job - protecting Harry. And Snape calling her on it - telling her to shape up!

hwyla, that makes great sense to me. Snape gave Harry a warning about wearing his heart on his sleeve, and Tonks patronus change is just as blatant. Worse still, it seems that Harry's great protector (Tonks) was so down in the dumps that she couldn't even produce a patronus clear enough for Harry, who was right there beside her, to tell what it was. Snape's criticism of Tonks patronus was at least two-fold. Because she was so emotionally focused, her patronus changed, betraying her heart more than a bit. However, her magic was weakened too, so the patronus wasn't very focused. Sure, Snape probably would have enjoyed tossing a jab at Lupin, but that was merely icing on the cake. Had Tonks patronus been an elephant, Snape would still likely have remarked on how weak the magic behind the patronus was.

I agree with hwyla--my impression was always that Tonks's magical abilities were starting to slip, and Snape noticed and decided to irk her to perhaps motivate her into waking up.

Snape doesn't like Lupin either, so he maybe he just saw it as an opportunity to disparage Lupin, and perhaps try to make Tonks think less of Lupin. Snape wouldn't want Lupin to be happy.

Snape doesn't like Lupin either, so he maybe he just saw it as an opportunity to disparage Lupin, and perhaps try to make Tonks think less of Lupin. Snape wouldn't want Lupin to be happy.Yes - but 'at that time' Remus was refusing Tonks. Not that I believe Snape was necessarily aware that Remus had told Tonks 'no' - I'm only sure that Snape (and the rest of the Order) must have been told that Tonks' patronus was now represented by Remus.

Molly (at least) was aware that Remus was not returning Tonks' feelings. But I really haven't seen anything that would indicate whether Snape knew it or not.

If I had to guess, I'd say that just the fact that Tonks' magic was flagging was probably an indication that Remus had rejected her.

I'm still wondering about Snape using her first name. I know many think it indicates he was trying to rile her up. But on the other, we've never seen Snape speak to a woman using her first name in front of a student before. I'm not yet decided on the reason.

My best guess is that it will turn out that Tonks was a favorite Slytherin student - part of the reason Slytherin had won the house cups for the 7 years before Harry. Those 7 years WOULD coincide with her Hogwarts years. And she must have been relatively smart to become an auror. It also might explain why ANY Hogwarts student would be shocked to be insulted by Snape - IF she had never been so.

But alternatively - there MIGHT still be SOME connection between Snape and the FamilyBlack of which we are unaware. The only others we ever see Snape call by first names are from the Black family - Draco, Narcissa, Bellatrix.

I'm still wondering about Snape using her first name. I know many think it indicates he was trying to rile her up. But on the other, we've never seen Snape speak to a woman using her first name in front of a student before. I'm not yet decided on the reason.

My best guess is that it will turn out that Tonks was a favorite Slytherin student - part of the reason Slytherin had won the house cups for the 7 years before Harry. Those 7 years WOULD coincide with her Hogwarts years. And she must have been relatively smart to become an auror. It also might explain why ANY Hogwarts student would be shocked to be insulted by Snape - IF she had never been so.

But alternatively - there MIGHT still be SOME connection between Snape and the FamilyBlack of which we are unaware. The only others we ever see Snape call by first names are from the Black family - Draco, Narcissa, Bellatrix.

I'm of the opinion that Tonks, like most Blacks, was in Slytherin, which means that not so long ago, Snape was her head of house. I like that notion because it places one Order member, one person Harry has liked from the moment he met her, in the otherwise dastardly House of Slytherin. If House Unity is an issue in book 7, and Tonks was in Slytherin, that could prove significant.

However, there's the whole rarely-used first name issue. Tonks mother is a Black, so maybe there is some merit to the connect the Blacks to Severus Snape. So many little clues, so few answers.

I am also convinced that Tonks was in Slytherin, though I hadn't picked up on the seven years of winning the house cup point.

I agree that Snape must have known what her patronus was in advance or the same reason already pointed out - the security and the need to be aware of who is sending messages to who within the Order.

However I don't think he took the message to see her patronus specifically. I think the "interested to see" comment was more likely just phrased that way because that more formal way of speaking is something that Snape does tend to do. I am still undecided as to whether it was a dig at Tonks or a means of drawing her attention to her weaker magic. I am thinking perhaps it was a little of both.

i think he was commenting on it more to show that her powers have changed. we all know that her powers have gotten weaker since ootp because he believes that Sirius's death was her fault. i think he was commenting not only on her patronus involving lupin but the change in power.

The patronus only changes when something terrible has happened to the person and Sirius dying turned her patronus into a dog. Snape knew that it would probably change and wanted to see if he was correct. Like some have said, a way to loath about Sirius' death.

The patronus only changes when something terrible has happened to the person and Sirius dying turned her patronus into a dog. Snape knew that it would probably change and wanted to see if he was correct. Like some have said, a way to loath about Sirius' death.
I think you might have missed a bit. Harry first THOUGHT this - but Tonks' new patronus was NOT Padfoot - it was WerewolfRemus. Harry first THOUGHT it was about Sirius' death, but the change was because she loved Remus.

My best guess is that it will turn out that Tonks was a favorite Slytherin student - part of the reason Slytherin had won the house cups for the 7 years before Harry. Those 7 years WOULD coincide with her Hogwarts years. And she must have been relatively smart to become an auror. It also might explain why ANY Hogwarts student would be shocked to be insulted by Snape - IF she had never been so.

Why do you think she was a Slytherin? Is that stated anywhere in the books? I thought we only knew about Sirius's immediate family houses at Hogwarts. Tonks' father was a muggle, and her mother was not interested in the dark arts as the rest of the Black family. I thought she was another house, although I'm not sure we have any canon on that.

I've laid out my reasons on the Which House Tonks was in thread - however - quickly (as I don't want to go too off-topic) I think there are clues that she will turn out to be a Slytherin.

One does not need to be a pureblood or necessarily have 'dark tendencies' to be a Slytherin. What one needs is ambition and cunning. Remember that as far as we know right now Snape's father was a MUGGLE (whereas at least Tonks' father was a muggle-born) and we have no indications that his mother was 'dark' at all. All we know about her for certain was that she was really good at Gobstones (possibly showing a strength in strategy, but nothing particularly 'dark' since she married a muggle. Yet - he was sorted into Slytherin.

1) We've never actually been told which House Tonks was in - however, I believe that it was VERY telling that she did not name her Head of House when sympathizing with Harry about not getting the Prefect position. Tonks apparently finished Hogwarts in June'91, just before Harry entered in Sept'91. There were no mentions of ANY new Head of House at the opening feast, so all the current House Heads were the House Heads while Tonks was there. WHY (if she was a Gryff, Huff or Ravenclaw) did she not name her head of house? Specifically going for the unnamed 'Head of House'? Unless she knew that naming that person would upset Harry further?

2) The actual wording she used - that her head of house felt she couldn't 'behave herself' sounded like a Snape 'sound-bite'. Altho' I will agree that it could have just as easily have been Minerva. I don't think for a minute that it sounded like Flitwick or Sprout. However IF it had been Minerva, Tonks would have said so since she would have been sympathizing with Harry about the very SAME person denying them the Prefect position.

3) So far, all we've been told was that Sirius was the only Black who didn't sort into Slytherin. Not conclusive since Tonks was a 'Tonks' not a 'Black', but it certainly means that her mother Andromeda was in Slytherin.

4) This little situation where Snape uses her first name. The ONLY other time we've heard Snape use a 'first name' in front of a student is for another (supposedly favored) student - Draco. Note also that Tonks was shocked by Snape's barb. Any Hogwarts student should NOT be shocked to find Snape insulting - unless they too were a 'favored' student whom Snape had never attacked before. An angry response would have been normal - but not shock or surprise.

5) The bit about Slytherin winning the House Cup for 7 years running before Harry came to Hogwarts - despite Gryffindor having apparently a seeker who could 'play for England' - kind of implies some intelligent Slytherins. Altho' it ALSO implies some very good Quidditch talent on Slytherin's part since Gryffindor had also not won the Quidditch Cup. Admittedly a small clue - but hopeful Aurors must be very good students.

6) Much smaller clues - many don't think wanting to be an auror would be considered 'ambitious' but for someone who had a cousin, aunt, uncle and uncle-in-law in Azkaban it would take a great deal of ambition to make it into the auror program. Note (altho' this is a VERY small clue) Snape recognized the classes Harry was taking as the path towards auror - perhaps because he had counseled Tonks through her path to the aurors? It took even MORE ambition for Tonks to keep going in her auror program when her cousin Sirius escaped Azkaban. I'm sure she was given quite alot of trouble over that in her last year of auror training.

As for 'cunning' for a Slytherin - her talent at metamorphing might have gotten her into Slytherin based just on 'cunning' - shape changing could be considered rather cunning.

Last really tiny clue - she can mimic Snape's features. Admittedly, she'd probably do that even if she wasn't a Slytherin - but I think JKR could have added it to draw us a hint of connection.

Well-put hwyla. My own defense of my belief would pale in comparison, and again, I think there will need to be one clear-cut, "good" Slytherin in book 7 to help Harry in several respects, but particuarly with the notion that House Unity is important. (And according to the Sorting Hat, it is!)

Your post also explains rather clearly why Snape would be interested in Tonks' new patronus. Especially if she was a favored student, Snape would scarcely be able to refrain from making a comment about the change in form AND "quality"!

I think you might have missed a bit. Harry first THOUGHT this - but Tonks' new patronus was NOT Padfoot - it was WerewolfRemus. Harry first THOUGHT it was about Sirius' death, but the change was because she loved Remus.

wow I did miss this could someone tell me where that is located? Or it could just be that it has been so long that I have forgotten.

wow I did miss this could someone tell me where that is located? Or it could just be that it has been so long that I have forgotten.
We find that out in HBP, the section after Ginny takes Harry away from Dumbledore's body & up to the hospital. There is eventually dialog between Tonks & Lupin, and Mrs. Weasley, and it suddenly becomes clear to Harry that Tonks' new patronus was Lupin/wolfman, not Sirius/animagus.


2) The actual wording she used - that her head of house felt she couldn't 'behave herself' sounded like a Snape 'sound-bite'. Altho' I will agree that it could have just as easily have been Minerva. I don't think for a minute that it sounded like Flitwick or Sprout. However IF it had been Minerva, Tonks would have said so since she would have been sympathizing with Harry about the very SAME person denying them the Prefect position.

3) So far, all we've been told was that Sirius was the only Black who didn't sort into Slytherin. Not conclusive since Tonks was a 'Tonks' not a 'Black', but it certainly means that her mother Andromeda was in Slytherin.

4) This little situation where Snape uses her first name. The ONLY other time we've heard Snape use a 'first name' in front of a student is for another (supposedly favored) student - Draco. Note also that Tonks was shocked by Snape's barb. Any Hogwarts student should NOT be shocked to find Snape insulting - unless they too were a 'favored' student whom Snape had never attacked before. An angry response would have been normal - but not shock or surprise.

2) I don't think Tonks would do that, she's a responsible adult. Complaining about heads of house is a student thing. Adults have more perspective.

3) Andromeda was in Slytherin, but then so were Sirius's parents & brother. So not really an indicator from what we've seen.

4) Again, Snape & Tonks are adults, not teacher and student. And since Tonks hates her first name, Snape's using it could just have been one more thing he did to annoy her. I think Tonks' reaction was more that she was affronted that Snape's comment insulted Lupin (being weak), who is someone after all that she loves.

We find that out in HBP, the section after Ginny takes Harry away from Dumbledore's body & up to the hospital. There is eventually dialog between Tonks & Lupin, and Mrs. Weasley, and it suddenly becomes clear to Harry that Tonks' new patronus was Lupin/wolfman, not Sirius/animagus.


Thankz a bunch im gonna go read it! It gives me a great reason!

...4) Again, Snape & Tonks are adults, not teacher and student. And since Tonks hates her first name, Snape's using it could just have been one more thing he did to annoy her. I think Tonks' reaction was more that she was affronted that Snape's comment insulted Lupin (being weak), who is someone after all that she loves.The problem with this is that Snape has a VERY formal mode of addressing other adults - it's almost Regency in style. We NEVER have heard him address another adult by first name in front of a student. Not Albus, not Minerva, Filch, Hagrid, etc. and it isn't as if Snape can't insult someone verbally without needing to retreat to just calling her by a name she happens to dislike. Note that he doesn't even call Mrs. Weasley 'Molly'.

This isn't even a dreaded nickname and it IS a name that other adults DO use. We've heard Tonks called Nymphadora by Albus and by Remus. And surprisingly, we've never actually heard her say she disliked her name in Snape's presence. True - I highly doubt that Snape was unaware she might dislike her first name. But even with Narcissa and Bellatrix we don't see him go into such familiarity to use nicknames.

He would NEVER call her Tonks, because he NEVER uses nicknames (exception - Wormtail - but that has entirely other possibilities, like Voldy never calls him anything but Wormtail). He might call her 'Miss Tonks', but never just by a nickname like 'Tonks'. It would be entirely against his character throughout the books.

Because we never hear him call other adults by their first name in front of students - it is highly unlikely that he would do so in front of Harry. I think Snape was just falling back into 'teacher' mode. He WAS her teacher just 6 years ago. I think he NORMALLY calls her Miss Tonks (as he does other women in general) but in this case he was lecturing about her magic power dwindling while she's the sole protector of the 'chosen one'. And while lecturing a former student, it would be easy to fall into the trap of calling them by the name you called them previously. That's the whole reason I think she MIGHT have been a 'favored' student, since we've only heard him call one student by first name before - Draco.

As I've said - I'm not trying to argue the position here - I still think there's a possibility that Snape might have some connection to the Black family (of which we are still very unaware). I just think that Tonks being a Slytherin is ONE possibility to be reached by these clues. And I haven't seen any clues that actually point to her being anything else.

...2) I don't think Tonks would do that, she's a responsible adult. Complaining about heads of house is a student thing. Adults have more perspective..But she IS sympathising with Harry at the time and she DOES say those actual words. That her head of house thought she couldn't behave herself well enough to be made prefect. That isn't insulting her head of house - she merely states that Head's opinion on why she would not have been a good prefect. There isn't any reason to NOT name this person that I can see, except perhaps that she thinks it's not the best time to bring up what house she was in. And to me that implies Slytherin - because I really can't see why she wouldn't have said the name if it was Minerva, Sprout or Flitwick.

Considering she has JUST met Harry at that time, I doubt she was implying that Harry couldn't 'behave'. It seems she was just trying to cheer him up, by saying not everyone can BE a prefect - and 'look, one can even become an auror without having been a prefect' - basically, don't worry, being a prefect isn't really all that important after you leave school.

So, while she DID repeat the reason her Head of House didn't give her the prefect position, she was not 'complaining' as such, but really more trying to boost Harry.

Considering she has JUST met Harry at that time, I doubt she was implying that Harry couldn't 'behave'. It seems she was just trying to cheer him up, by saying not everyone can BE a prefect - and 'look, one can even become an auror without having been a prefect' - basically, don't worry, being a prefect isn't really all that important after you leave school.

So, while she DID repeat the reason her Head of House didn't give her the prefect position, she was not 'complaining' as such, but really more trying to boost Harry.

I agree. Tonks was very "new" to Harry and vice versa at that point, and she was simply being kind. She could relate, so she did. It wasn't a complaint; it was a sign of empathy, sort of a "been there done that" statement.

As I've said - I'm not trying to argue the position here - I still think there's a possibility that Snape might have some connection to the Black family (of which we are still very unaware). I just think that Tonks being a Slytherin is ONE possibility to be reached by these clues. And I haven't seen any clues that actually point to her being anything else.
Hmm, well you could have fooled me, it certainly seems like you're arguing the position.

The fact remains that Snape knows Tonks from the Order, knows she & Lupin have a relationship. Snape knows Tonks hates her first name, never uses it, corrects everyone (even Lupin) to call her Tonks. Snape knows she hates it. And he doesn't like Lupin, we know this from PoA, and whether he just doesn't want Lupin to be happy with Tonks, or he just doesn't think a werewolf should marry, we don't know. But to say that it doesn't color Snape's behaviour in HBP toward Tonks is to ignore what we do know from the previous books about Snape's attitude. And I don't know that we can guess Tonks house by assumptions for which we have no canon.


Considering she has JUST met Harry at that time, I doubt she was implying that Harry couldn't 'behave'. It seems she was just trying to cheer him up, by saying not everyone can BE a prefect - and 'look, one can even become an auror without having been a prefect' - basically, don't worry, being a prefect isn't really all that important after you leave school.

So, while she DID repeat the reason her Head of House didn't give her the prefect position, she was not 'complaining' as such, but really more trying to boost Harry.
Actually, even though Tonks had just technically met Harry, she probably knows more about him than most because of her relationship with Lupin. Harry & Lupin have a close relationship, and it's more than likely Tonks has heard quite a bit about Harry's experiences and struggles. She's also a bit younger than the others in the Order, so she can relate more to the trio. But I doubt that any of that can be construed as proof of her house either.

Did she say head of house? Let me look...

"My Head of House said I lacked certian necessary qualities."

Well, that's a vote for Slytheirn right there. If she were a Gryffindor, she would simply have said "McGonagall said..." and we'd know she meant Grffindor's Head of House. Saying "Professor Slughorn said..." would have meant nothing to the reader at that point, so she simply says "My Head of House said...".

Did she say head of house? Let me look...

"My Head of House said I lacked certian necessary qualities."

Well, that's a vote for Slytheirn right there. If she were a Gryffindor, she would simply have said "McGonagall said...". Saying "Professor Slughorn said..." would have meant nothing to the reader at that point, so she simply says "My Head of House said...".
Sorry, I don't follow your logic. In fact, if Tonks was in Gryffindor, she'd be more inclined to not mention McGonagall because she knows that's Harry's head of house as well. Besides, it's Dumbledore that actually picks the prefects and such, the heads only recommend. You'll recall that Dumbledore apologizes to Harry for that in OoP at the very end of their conversation in his office.

Why on earth wouldn't she jsut say "McGonagall said I lacked certain necessary qualities?" They both know who she is, her position and her strictness- if she had reccommended someone besides Tonks for Prefect and was explaining this as this unnamed 'Head of House' clearly was. I see no reason for such an omission.

However, at this point in the story, we don't know that Slughorn was the Slytherin Head of House and would have been the one to give her this reason for not being reccommended for Prefect, so lack of a name given here could indicate that she was in Slytherin.

Sorry, I don't follow your logic. In fact, if Tonks was in Gryffindor, she'd be more inclined to not mention McGonagall because she knows that's Harry's head of house as well. Besides, it's Dumbledore that actually picks the prefects and such, the heads only recommend. You'll recall that Dumbledore apologizes to Harry for that in OoP at the very end of their conversation in his office.

that's a good point and i kinda agree but.......................who were the heads of houses for hufflepuff ad ravenclaw @ the time???????

if we had this info then maybe it could be one of them..........justa theory.......wat do u think??????????? :shrug:

Tonks apparently finishes Hogwarts in June'91 - just before Harry begins it in Sept.'91. Since there is no announcement at the beginning feast about NEW Heads of Houses, it would SEEM that at least for Tonks LAST year the Heads were Minerva, Sprout, Flitwick and Snape.

Not sure whether we have actual canon that says he was Head before then or not. However, we know he was hired as Potions professor (thereby he assumedly replaced Slughorn back in '81). There DOES exist the possibility that that there was some OTHER Head of Slytherin between '81 and '90 - but there have been no hints towards that.

Minerva did make some comment about being sick of losing quidditch to Snape - but I'm not sure whether that constitutes actual 'canon' that he was the Slytherin Head in the previous years. Also possibly (but can't remember and will have to look at books later) did Percy at Harry's first feast say Snape was Head of Slytherin? That would also tend to make it more certain that Snape had been Slytherin's head of house for at least the previous year.

Hmm, well you could have fooled me, it certainly seems like you're arguing the position.Only because it was specifically ASKED (by YOU in post #26) that I do so. I explained that I had posted all these clues before on another thread, but would summarize here because it was requested. Since then I've only replied to replies.

...The fact remains that Snape knows Tonks from the Order, knows she & Lupin have a relationship. Snape knows Tonks hates her first name, never uses it, corrects everyone (even Lupin) to call her Tonks. Snape knows she hates it. And he doesn't like Lupin, we know this from PoA, and whether he just doesn't want Lupin to be happy with Tonks, or he just doesn't think a werewolf should marry, we don't know. But to say that it doesn't color Snape's behaviour in HBP toward Tonks is to ignore what we do know from the previous books about Snape's attitude. And I don't know that we can guess Tonks house by assumptions for which we have no canon..At THAT time I will say Snape certainly knows Tonks from the Order. I would not say that he KNEW she & Remus had a relationship - he SHOULD know that her patronus had changed to werewolfRemus (because a change in Patronus would HAVE to be told to ALL Order members), but that does not necessarily mean there was a relationship. It COULD (for instance) only mean that Tonks WANTED a relationship. That she FELT Remus would protect her. It would not be a sure sign of a relationship.

Considering Remus was 'rejecting' Tonks at the time Snape makes his remarks - it seems unlikely that IF he knows anything about the relationship (or lack of one) that he would not also know that the relationship was 'off' at that moment. Hence - since Remus was already rejecting the idea of happiness with Tonks - Snape's opinions about whether werewolves should marry or whether Remus would be happy really has nothing to do with anything he says about the patronus being 'weak'.

By the way DID Tonks ever correct anyone else (other than Remus) about using 'Nymphadora'? I think I remember Albus calling her by that name somewhere. Am I imagining that or does anyone else remember this? Anyway, she makes her correction to Remus in Harry's kitchen. All the others there would have heard it - but Snape was NOT there. I actually DO believe he would know she disliked it, but we do not have canon that SAYS he knows it.

...Actually, even though Tonks had just technically met Harry, she probably knows more about him than most because of her relationship with Lupin. Harry & Lupin have a close relationship, and it's more than likely Tonks has heard quite a bit about Harry's experiences and struggles. She's also a bit younger than the others in the Order, so she can relate more to the trio. But I doubt that any of that can be construed as proof of her house either.I'm not positive that I would say that Tonks and Lupin knew each other well 'at that time'. We have no idea of when they actually met. Considering Remus introduced Tonks as 'Nymphadora' in Harry's kitchen, I'd say that was probably the first they had worked together.

The talk about Prefects doesn't take place until after Harry's hearing - so it's about 2 weeks later. But we really don't see much of Tonks during that time (after all she DOES have a day job), so I'm not positive that we can say that Remus and Tonks had much to say to each other YET.

However, you're correct - she CAN relate closer to the kids - or the kids can relate closer to her because she's closer in age. But Sirius was also in on the discussion about prefects (saying he and James were the troublemakers). Both Sirius and Kingsley are specific in mentioning Albus as the one who decides prefects - yet Tonks specifically mentions her Head of House as the one who said she lacked the 'necessary qualities'.

No - it is NOT canon - I never said it was - I said there were a bunch of clues that led ME to believe she was PROBABLY a Slytherin. Of which this is just one. I also held open the possibility that there might be another reason for Snape to call her by her first name.

I just think that of all the reasons Snape would use her first name - insulting her would be the most out of character. Snape can be plenty abrasive and verbally insulting without needing to resort to just calling her a name she happens to dislike. He is in fact quite creative in the field of verbal insults.

Note that when he does call Tonks 'Nymphadora', she makes NO response. Her shocked expression comes later - after Snape implied Harry had not been safe in her hands and was only safe now that he was inside the gates.

And I still feel quite certain that ANY student who had Snape as their teacher (which Tonks would have done for 7 years) would not be SHOCKED to be insulted by Snape unless he had never insulted them before.
---------
EDIT to add - double-checked the 'WillowSevern' website - Albus refers to her as Nymphadora Tonks TWICE in his talk with Harry AFTER the fight in the Dept. of Mysteries. So Albus is continuing to use her first name almost nine months after Snape uses it. Has no one ever TOLD Albus that she prefers to be called 'Tonks'? Certainly, HE doesn't call her that to be insulting!

However, Albus ALSO uses a normally 'formal' mode of addressing people. Much like Snape. He certainly would never refer to an adult by their 'nickname' when talking to a non-adult (even if it's Harry and Harry himself usually calls her by that nickname).

Note that when he does call Tonks 'Nymphadora', she makes NO response. Her shocked expression comes later - after Snape implied Harry had not been safe in her hands and was only safe now that he was inside the gates.

And I still feel quite certain that ANY student who had Snape as their teacher (which Tonks would have done for 7 years) would not be SHOCKED to be insulted by Snape unless he had never insulted them before.
If I recall correctly, I wasn't implying she reacted to Snape's calling her by her first name, only that I think Snape knows she prefers to not use it and he was doing it to annoy her.

The only time Tonks fleetingly responds with shock and anger is after Snape's last remark, described as "with malice" that her new patronus form (which is werewolf Remus) "looks weak" (page 160, HBP, U.S. version). This is what Tonks reacts to, because she loves Lupin, not because she could have been a former favorite student of Snape's. I think it's because Snape is purposely insulting Lupin.

So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Just for the record....

Also possibly (but can't remember and will have to look at books later) did Percy at Harry's first feast say Snape was Head of Slytherin? That would also tend to make it more certain that Snape had been Slytherin's head of house for at least the previous year.

No Percy doesn't mention that he is head of the house, but Ron does when they go to their first potions class, he mentions he is Head of Slytherin and that they will find out whether it is true that he always favours them.

"Hagrid was late for the start-of-term feast, just like Potter here, so I took it instead. And incidentally," said Snape, standing back to allow Harry to pass him, "I was interested to see your new Patronus."

It's a turn of phrase, not that he wanted to see the patronus, simply that he was surprised/amused/fascinated by it's new form, or that he obviously knew who it represented and therefore that knowledge/information was good to him.

I think Snape being a Legilmens knew or at least suspected how Tonks felt about Remus and wanted to taunt her about it

I don't think it's so much that he wanted to see it, but that he did notice the change in it's form and was intrigued by it.

It's a turn of phrase, not that he wanted to see the patronus, simply that he was surprised/amused/fascinated by it's new form, or that he obviously knew who it represented and therefore that knowledge/information was good to him.
When I read this part of the Half-Blood Prince it seemed to me like Snape was taking some good ol' Felix. When you read certain parts it went through my head that Snape luckily was there at the precise time to meet Harry and Tonks and luckily for Snape Hagrid was late. Read this whole part in Half-Blood Prince over again carefully.

I think he just wanted to gloat over that fact that Tonks was so unhappy at that time. He must have known about he love for Lupin through the Order.

When I read this part of the Half-Blood Prince it seemed to me like Snape was taking some good ol' Felix. When you read certain parts it went through my head that Snape luckily was there at the precise time to meet Harry and Tonks and luckily for Snape Hagrid was late. Read this whole part in Half-Blood Prince over again carefully.
Hagrid wasn't that late, Ron says it was a couple minutes.
This wasn't luck, it was Snape purposely intercepting the patronus message because he knew Tonks had to be bringing Harry (he wasn't with Hermione & Ron at the table), and he wanted to berate Harry as usual.

Hagrid wasn't that late, Ron says it was a couple minutes.
This wasn't luck, it was Snape purposely intercepting the patronus message because he knew Tonks had to be bringing Harry (he wasn't with Hermione & Ron at the table), and he wanted to berate Harry as usual.
It seemed to me like Snape was unnaturally lucky in that part. If he wasn't on the Felix then it definetly seemed like he was when he killed Dumbledore and got away without getting hit. Dumbledore had no doubt that Snape wouldn't turn back to his old ways. I find it hard to believe that Snape couls hide his true intentions from Dumbledore at that moments, with Dumbledore being such a great wizard. Then again, mabye Dumbledore was too confident that Snape was good. Read the part over again when Snape flees, I think he had some Felix Felicis because he got away from the Order without a scratch and still had a last moment to torture Harry some more.

It seemed to me like Snape was unnaturally lucky in that part. If he wasn't on the Felix then it definetly seemed like he was when he killed Dumbledore and got away without getting hit. Dumbledore had no doubt that Snape wouldn't turn back to his old ways. I find it hard to believe that Snape couls hide his true intentions from Dumbledore at that moments, with Dumbledore being such a great wizard. Then again, mabye Dumbledore was too confident that Snape was good. Read the part over again when Snape flees, I think he had some Felix Felicis because he got away from the Order without a scratch and still had a last moment to torture Harry some more.
I have to disagree with you here. The reason that Snape was able to get past the Order members is because they believed he was on the same side. Snape is an Order member, they had no reason to believe otherwise at that point. There was no felix luck involved. The Order wouldn't have attacked Snape any more than they would have attacked Harry.

I have to agree with HedwigOwl on this point. McGonnagal even says that they let Snape and Draco pass because they thought they were running from the Death Eaters. No need for luck in a bottle here.

It seemed to me like Snape was unnaturally lucky in that part. If he wasn't on the Felix then it definetly seemed like he was when he killed Dumbledore and got away without getting hit. Dumbledore had no doubt that Snape wouldn't turn back to his old ways. I find it hard to believe that Snape couls hide his true intentions from Dumbledore at that moments, with Dumbledore being such a great wizard. Then again, mabye Dumbledore was too confident that Snape was good. Read the part over again when Snape flees, I think he had some Felix Felicis because he got away from the Order without a scratch and still had a last moment to torture Harry some more.

He gets passed the Order because they thought he was on their side and fighting for them.

He managed to get away without a scratch because of this, and because he has more control over his magic than Harry. It's going to take something spectacular for Harry to beat Snape, never mind Voldemort.

He gets passed the Order because they thought he was on their side and fighting for them.

He managed to get away without a scratch because of this, and because he has more control over his magic than Harry. It's going to take something spectacular for Harry to beat Snape, never mind Voldemort.
I think you are right there, but it still seems to me like Snape was very lucky that night with killing Dumbledore and escaping without a scratch. There was a lot of confusion for the Order of the Phoenix.

But what about the part when Snape was able to do this without the D.A. (who took Felix) even having a hint about this. They were snooping around before this happened and if they took Felix then they should've noticed this.

But what about the part when Snape was able to do this without the D.A. (who took Felix) even having a hint about this. They were snooping around before this happened and if they took Felix then they should've noticed this.

I think the DAs Felix mostly saved them from getting killed. Even if they could have been luckier, who's to say that everything didn't happen the way it was supposed to. DD knew something was up, he had extra Order members there, which he hadn't done any other time he had left the castle. The battle with Draco was eminate, and maybe it ended the way it was supposed to, even with "luck". Most miracles occur in hindsight.

I think you are right there, but it still seems to me like Snape was very lucky that night with killing Dumbledore and escaping without a scratch. There was a lot of confusion for the Order of the Phoenix.

But what about the part when Snape was able to do this without the D.A. (who took Felix) even having a hint about this. They were snooping around before this happened and if they took Felix then they should've noticed this.
There's a whole discussion out there about the Felix and what it means concerning Snape and Draco getting past Hermione, Ginny & Ron. The general consensus seems to be that it was lucky that things developed as they did.....but we probably won't be able to see why until after we read book 7.

The way he said it, I don't think that he was really out looking to see what Tonk's new patronus looked like, but he was just commenting on the fact that it had changed. Of course, it was a snide comment about it.

snape has seen remus as a werewolf (poa)
snape went to see who would be using his werewolf form as a patonis

could not calling her tonks be a wornig to harry if the tonks is a traidor
therys proves to be right ?

I thought that JKR wanted to bring up the fact that Tonks' Patronus had changed to add a bit of mystery and keep the reader wondering. Now how do you make the reader understand that someone has a new Patronus? Let someone comment on it, easy. It would have been possible for Tonks to mention it, but a bit of a stretch because she's so wrapped up. Snape on the other hand is known for snide remarks, he can easily carry the line without any stretching.

The point is - the book is called the Half-Blood Prince, and Snape is said Prince. For formal reasons, it is nice to have Snape being the one to lead Harry into the school, while Harry is the one chasing Snape out of it in the end. I think that's the only reason why it isn't Hagrid, or someone else fetching Harry, but Snape.

No clue....

I agree, on both counts. Plus, a little animosity from Snape about said new Patronus can also be a tip off to the fact that it's supposed to represent her feelings for Lupin.

Section: F.A.Q.
What houses were Tonks and Myrtle in?
Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw respectively.

she anwered the qution about tonks house on her website
so spought was her head of house

I thought that JKR wanted to bring up the fact that Tonks' Patronus had changed to add a bit of mystery and keep the reader wondering. Now how do you make the reader understand that someone has a new Patronus? Let someone comment on it, easy. It would have been possible for Tonks to mention it, but a bit of a stretch because she's so wrapped up. Snape on the other hand is known for snide remarks, he can easily carry the line without any stretching.

The point is - the book is called the Half-Blood Prince, and Snape is said Prince. For formal reasons, it is nice to have Snape being the one to lead Harry into the school, while Harry is the one chasing Snape out of it in the end. I think that's the only reason why it isn't Hagrid, or someone else fetching Harry, but Snape.

I agree entirely. This scene is here for synergy with the book conclusion and to further push the Tonks story line mystery. Its a clue to lead us towards thinking Tonks might be sad about Serius. It also gives us a nice chance to have Snape and Harry together for some fun.

snape has seen remus as a werewolf (poa)
snape went to see who would be using his werewolf form as a patronus

could not calling her tonks be a warnig to Harry if the tonks is a traitor
theories proves to be right ?

I like what you say here. Somehow or the other I think Tonks and Snape, whatever side they're own are on the same side.

I don't think this was about him teasing her. If he was there would have been some sneering going on.

The way he shut the gate in her face. It seems like he was angry. Tonks reaction, of shock and anger indicates that something is out of the ordinary. Why would she be shocked that he would say that. Everyone knows Snape hates Lupin, everyone knows he is a nasty piece of work but for some reason she is suprised when he makes a mean comment about her Patronus.

Then there's the whole business with him calling her by her first name. She usually hates it when people call her by her first name. Yet she doesn't react when he calls her by her first name. Now him calling her Nymphadora and not Tonks is strange in itself. He calls all students (current and former) by thier last name: Potter, Weasley, Granger, Longbottom, Crabe and Goyle etc etc. Why doesn't he call Tonks, Tonks. Is it just to annoy her? I don't think so because she didn't seem annoyed by it. Coming to think of it Snape calls everyone by thier last Name, even people his age.

I don't think this scene was just to show that Tonks had a new patronus, Harry could have found that out from anyone else in the order. The best candidate would be Mrs. Weasley but instead JK had Snape tell us the patronus is new. Odd. To me that was a waste of Snape and Jk never waste Snape like that.

Something is going on there.

With Tonks being posted close to Hogwarts it not a stretch to imagine that Dumbledore was using her for some missions. Maybe he didn't tell the other members in the order, maybe he only told Snape. Somehow or the other I think she had something to do with Vance's murder. She can change her appearence at will, maybe she was being used for important stuff that helped Snape keep the trust of the DE.


For example. Snape needs to make it look like killed someone important. They have Tonks pretend to be that person while DD sees that the real person is hidden away in same far away country. Snape puts on a show and pretends to kill Tonks (chaged into someone else). Voldemort would think he is really making a contribution and he wouldn't have to actually do anything.

But if Tonks can't change anymore then she is putting Snape in danger. Maybe this is why he was angry. I'll repeat that he seemed angry in that scene.

All in all I think there is something more in that scene than Tonks having a new patronus. The words used in this scene were very selective. Snape and Tonks are more familar with each other than Harry knows.

I thought that JKR wanted to bring up the fact that Tonks' Patronus had changed to add a bit of mystery and keep the reader wondering. Now how do you make the reader understand that someone has a new Patronus? Let someone comment on it, easy. It would have been possible for Tonks to mention it, but a bit of a stretch because she's so wrapped up. Snape on the other hand is known for snide remarks, he can easily carry the line without any stretching.

The point is - the book is called the Half-Blood Prince, and Snape is said Prince. For formal reasons, it is nice to have Snape being the one to lead Harry into the school, while Harry is the one chasing Snape out of it in the end. I think that's the only reason why it isn't Hagrid, or someone else fetching Harry, but Snape.

So we know that Tonks used to have a different Patronus. Has it ever been said how a Patronus changes, maybe I'm just drawing a blank. I don't understand how a Patronus can change.

I'm sure Snape noticed the form of Tonks's patronus before. And he knew the effect Sirius's death had on Tonks. Nothing more than Snape wanting to inflict misery, which isn't so out of character for him.

I thought that a figure of speech, meaning that he didn't set out to see her patronus, but was intrigued about what form it changed into.

So we know that Tonks used to have a different Patronus. Has it ever been said how a Patronus changes, maybe I'm just drawing a blank. I don't understand how a Patronus can change.

Well, a Patronus is really a direct manifestation for your emotions. And I suppose, if something significant enough to change the emotional state of someone permanently happens, it could change the form of the Patronus. And I do believe someone said this in HBP, Hermione I think.

I dont think he wanted to see her new patronous. Because i meen how did he know it was diffrent? and i think he just said it as a snide remark.

Well, a Patronus is really a direct manifestation for your emotions. And I suppose, if something significant enough to change the emotional state of someone permanently happens, it could change the form of the Patronus. And I do believe someone said this in HBP, Hermione I think.

It's Lupin himself, Christmas at the Burrow.

Actually, as another member of the Order Snape would have HAD to have already been told what Tonks' new patronus was. They depend upon those patronus to prove just who is sending a message. It is proof of Tonks' identity as the message sender.

Therefore EVERY member of the Order would have been told what Tonks' new patronus was as soon as anyone in the Order knew it had changed.

So, Snape was fully aware that her new patronus was a werewolf, BEFORE that meeting - it is not the patronus' animal form his in commenting upon. Every single member of the Order would already know that her patronus was based on Remus.

And as Snape stated, he was interested to take a look at the new patronus. Now since he must already know it's a werewolf - all he could want to know about it then is it's strength. Considering he is specific in saying that Harry is NOW safe (now that he is inside Hogwarts gates with him) I'd say that he is pointing out to Tonks just how much her depression has just endangered Harry and how fortunate it is that nothing happened.

After all - IF Tonks had been at her normal power she SHOULD have just side-along apparated Harry to the gates directly from the train. Instead she walks him to Hogwarts and they do not arrive until the feast is almost over. A minimum of at least an hour late, probably a great deal more since there are usually 40 first years to first be sorted. I can't imagine that each one of them takes less than a minute.

So - Tonks, who knows (or should know) she is weakened has just been the sole protection for over an hour of the only one who can possibly defeat Voldy (of course SHE may not know Harry is that important, but Snape does). And she knows which kid arranged this (left Harry petrified), she mentions Draco. So she knows he's at Hogwarts and could have already contacted his mother or Bella by floo to tell them.

Snape was just pointing out to Tonks that she needed to shape up.

^^^ That could be true as well^^^^

I'm sure Snape noticed the form of Tonks's patronus before. And he knew the effect Sirius's death had on Tonks. Nothing more than Snape wanting to inflict misery, which isn't so out of character for him.

Tonks's weak patronus had absolutely nothing to do with her grief over Sirius -- that's what Harry thought -- but it was because Remus was rejecting her, and I'll bet Snape knew it, too.

I don't think that he went out of his way to get the message. We dont no everything there is to know about patronuses yet. JKR has said that only people in the order can communicate this way, but i always thought that the Patronus went to the person who it was meant for so how could have snape intercepted it? Unless Tonks sent it in the direction of hagrid's hut. an because he wasn't there it went else where in search of him. Then again if this way of communication searches for it reciever then would have gone a different way cause hagrid was with gwarp in the cave that Dumbledore had found for him.

There is no NEW patronus.

Snape was warning Harry that Tonks was not what they appeared.
Like he warned the class through the werewolf lesson.

what do you mean by that, lindaluna? No NEW patronus? That is has merely CHANGED in appearance, or something else?

I thought that JKR wanted to bring up the fact that Tonks' Patronus had changed to add a bit of mystery and keep the reader wondering. Now how do you make the reader understand that someone has a new Patronus? Let someone comment on it, easy. It would have been possible for Tonks to mention it, but a bit of a stretch because she's so wrapped up. Snape on the other hand is known for snide remarks, he can easily carry the line without any stretching.
Excellent..That what I wanted to say. i think if Hagrid was there, he would be the one who picks Harry but as Hagrid wasn't there, Snape went and he at the same time will have the chance to pose Harry. But he too when he saw Tonks' patrouns had changed and he knew that she is not in the mood, he gave her some of his stupid smirks to annoy her and as you said Jo did that to make Harry knows ( as well as we too ) that.

There is no NEW patronus.

Snape was warning Harry that Tonks was not what they appeared.
Like he warned the class through the werewolf lesson.

I agree with this. It I think she was polyjuiced. It would explain the different patronus and the loss of her ability to transform. I've been wracking my brain to think who might have a reason to impersonate Tonks and who would also have access to her DNA. And I think Snape was in on it all along. So, it would also have to be someone from the Order, probably someone Snape had a reason to dislike and be snotty with. Also, it had to be someone who knows that she says, "Wotcher, Harry".

My best guess is Lupin. He is always looking tired, sad, and weak and brown, like the new Tonks. But why? I think he's been stationed near Hogwarts to keep an eye on Greyback who likes to position himself near children. But when he's not doing werewolf duty, he'd need to masqerade as someone else because now everyone at Hogsmeade knows he's a werewolf. So Tonks lent him her DNA.

It's a thought.

gosh, now I get it. Intriguing idea!

okay I think Snape knew she had a new patronus but he didn't know what it was until he saw it. Does anyone else think he seemed angry when he saw it. When Harry told Lupin that the patronus had changed he hardly seemed to care. Snape had more of a reaction to it that Lupin.

If you really want to know where I'm going with this see my latest post on the Snape is the hero thread because it assumes that he is good.

okay I think Snape knew she had a new patronus but he didn't know what it was until he saw it.Why would an Order member (Snape) NOT be told what the new patronus was? They depend upon this messaging system to confirm identity of the message sender. It would be vitally important to inform EVERY Order member of Tonks' changed patronus as soon as it changed.

...I think she was polyjuiced. It would explain the different patronus and the loss of her ability to transform. I've been wracking my brain to think who might have a reason to impersonate Tonks and who would also have access to her DNA. And I think Snape was in on it all along. So, it would also have to be someone from the Order, probably someone Snape had a reason to dislike and be snotty with. Also, it had to be someone who knows that she says, "Wotcher, Harry".

My best guess is Lupin. He is always looking tired, sad, and weak and brown, like the new Tonks. But why? I think he's been stationed near Hogwarts to keep an eye on Greyback who likes to position himself near children. But when he's not doing werewolf duty, he'd need to masqerade as someone else because now everyone at Hogsmeade knows he's a werewolf. So Tonks lent him her DNA.Harry has to have been more than an hour late to dinner. All of the carriages had arrived at Hogwarts. The sorting of around 40 kids had taken place and dinner was finished with only dessert left. I'd say he was closer to 2 hours late. So, unless the person drank their polyjuice immediately before finding Harry AND Harry laid on that floor for an hour before he was found AND whomever it was just about ready toturn back into themself then the time constraints work against this theory.

And if the this person (maybe Remus) was not weakened enough that they couldn't do it, then WHY would they not have side-along apparated Harry directly to the front gate from the train? Especially if they are under the time-constraint of polyjuice?

And if the this person (maybe Remus) was not weakened enough that they couldn't do it, then WHY would they not have side-along apparated Harry directly to the front gate from the train? Especially if they are under the time-constraint of polyjuice?

Yep, that does make sense. You've just spared me the necessity to rack my brains for the next three days to come up with a reason why Lupin would a) impersonate anyone, and b) Tonks of all persons when finding Harry.

I don't know if this has been discussed, but this is the closest thread I can find. Has there been any speculation on the form of Tonks's first patronus? I was thinking about it and thought it would be wicked if it had been a chameleon, very fitting. Though other that the physical comparison, I don't know what bearing it would have on her personality.
Definitely nothing feline, as that would suggest agility and gracefulness that this Hufflepuff was not blessed with. :)

Why would an Order member (Snape) NOT be told what the new patronus was? They depend upon this messaging system to confirm identity of the message sender. It would be vitally important to inform EVERY Order member of Tonks' changed patronus as soon as it changed.

Harry has to have been more than an hour late to dinner. All of the carriages had arrived at Hogwarts. The sorting of around 40 kids had taken place and dinner was finished with only dessert left. I'd say he was closer to 2 hours late. So, unless the person drank their polyjuice immediately before finding Harry AND Harry laid on that floor for an hour before he was found AND whomever it was just about ready toturn back into themself then the time constraints work against this theory.

And if the this person (maybe Remus) was not weakened enough that they couldn't do it, then WHY would they not have side-along apparated Harry directly to the front gate from the train? Especially if they are under the time-constraint of polyjuice?

hwyla: Your my hero!!! Also there is a JKR quote that I posted on the Snape Hero thread that debunks pretty much this whole thread.

hwyla: Your my hero!!! Also there is a JKR quote that I posted on the Snape Hero thread that debunks pretty much this whole thread.

please, can you send the link????

please, can you send the link????

Here is what JKR says

Quote:
Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz.
"The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Two,"
The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

JKR: There's a theory - this applies to detective novels, and then Harry, which is not really a detective novel, but it feels like one sometimes – that you should not have romantic intrigue in a detective book. Dorothy L. Sayers, who is queen of the genre said — and then broke her own rule, but said — that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other people’s motives. That's true; it is a very useful trick. I've used that on Percy and I’ve used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and it’s so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life. How did you feel about the romance?

Here is the link. http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/...t-anelli-2.htm

thank you!

And why Remus' patronus would be a werewolf - it doesn't seem as if he feels that side of him 'protects' him - altho' admitedly we have never actually SEEN his patronus. I do wonder just how Remus felt when he realized that he was personified as Tonks' protector as a 'werewolf'. I wonder if it hurt to be seen as protective as the wolf - he seems to find it the dangerous side of him - not the protector. It might just have intensified the rift between Tonks and himself - that he saw her as not seeing his problem clearly - like James and the 'furry little problem'?

And why Remus' patronus would be a werewolf - it doesn't seem as if he feels that side of him 'protects' him - altho' admitedly we have never actually SEEN his patronus.

I don't think Remus patronus would be a werewolf either. His boggart is the moon, so he clearly is afraid of turning into a werewolf so why would he feel protected by one.

I think it was Tonks at the gate. I'm starting to agree with you about Snape knowing that Tonks Patronus is a werewolf before hand.

But why was he intrested to see it. I guess he heard of it before but seeing is believing. His appearace at the gate could be to express his displeasure with her new patronus and her weakness.

I really think he came to the gate more to speak to her than to collect Harry. He took a while before he said anything to Harry at all after the incounter in her. He must have been thinking about thier conversation ( if you could call it a conversation since he did most of the talking). Harry assumes that his main business what with him but I think it was Tonks and to get a point across that Harry did not catch.

To rubbish it, of course! He had to make himself as unpopular as possible, so everyone would hate him when he destroyed Dumbledore!