The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Obscure

Quote from from Rell:
I truthfully don't understand the unbreakable vow under any good!snape or bad!snape theories: (as we are supposed to assume that snape is working for dumbledore in this thread, i will only post my views on that)

If Snape is working for Dumbledore (as this thread assumes), snape really locked himself in a corner. He does not help the order, because he has just vowed to kill Dumbledore (and if you say that he didn't really know what draco's task was, that's even more stupid). He does not help his position as a spy, as he's going against voldemort's orders (anyone think that voldemort likes disobedience?).

However it should be noted that up until HBP Voldemort had never tried to recruit new Death Eaters from Hogwarts (that we know of). Considering how serious Dumbledore seems to be about protecting his students Snape's orders could have been to take all risks if he felt that he could *save* a student from walking down the same dark path that he did. Maybe Snape honestly thought that he could influence Draco onto another path in life and only realized later that he under/misestimated Draco's abilities.

However it should be noted that up until HBP Voldemort had never tried to recruit new Death Eaters from Hogwarts (that we know of). Considering how serious Dumbledore seems to be about protecting his students Snape's orders could have been to take all risks if he felt that he could *save* a student from walking down the same dark path that he did. Maybe Snape honestly thought that he could influence Draco onto another path in life and only realized later that he under/misestimated Draco's abilities.
I'm sorry, i'm not sure to which part of my post you are replying, could you clarify? thanks

However it should be noted that up until HBP Voldemort had never tried to recruit new Death Eaters from Hogwarts (that we know of). Considering how serious Dumbledore seems to be about protecting his students Snape's orders could have been to take all risks if he felt that he could *save* a student from walking down the same dark path that he did. Maybe Snape honestly thought that he could influence Draco onto another path in life and only realized later that he under/misestimated Draco's abilities.
I can't reconcile your post with the discussion of the unbreakable vow. I sincerely doubt that Draco was the first Hogwarts student to become a Death Eater while at school. In fact, I'm pretty sure Regulus did since he died shortly after leaving school. We haven't seen much backstory about any other characters, but that is because the story focuses on Harry and other characters aren't as important. Voldemort had a lot of followers during VoldWar I, and some of them must have had children at Hogwarts. They would have been recruited as covert Death Eaters as needed.

I don't see that protecting Draco or any other student would entail taking an Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore.

If Snape is working for Dumbledore (as this thread assumes), snape really locked himself in a corner. He does not help the order, because he has just vowed to kill Dumbledore (and if you say that he didn't really know what draco's task was, that's even more stupid). He does not help his position as a spy, as he's going against voldemort's orders (anyone think that voldemort likes disobedience?).
I know it's a fine line but according to Morgoth and the first post of this thread

This thread is the doozy. You may think Snape is a working for the order, but still remains a nasty piece of poop! He's got a foul past that has made him all bitter and angry, but he hasn't lost sight of the greater picture and this thread is for you to discuss aspects of his character with this in mind, referencing all those pieces of information that point to him being the way he is. Evidence, people!





This is the theory that i (and many others) came up with:
1)Snape vows to protect draco and fulfill his task (killing dumbledore) as necessary

2)Snape tells Dumbledore about his vow and they make the following plan (which snape already had in mind): Snape will perform the avada kevadra on Dumbledore when necessary.

Since Snape will not have the requisite sadistic feelings (which is what Bellatrix says is needed for an unforgivable), the curse will not work.

If you remember, harry's failed unforgivable (the very one that bella is speaking about above) curse did have some affect. Dumbledore will fall over, perhaps lose conciousness, but not die.

The curse will have been fulfilled.

3. Unfortunately, they did not plan on doing this on top of the astronomy tower. Dumbldeore was knocked off the tower, and the fall killed him.

What do people think of this threory, and do you have another theory that takes the unbreakable vow into account?


I agree with you, under any circumstances I find it difficult to fully understand the unbreakable vow. One thing I'm fairly sure of is that just because Snape made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa I don't think he had an unbreakable vow with anyone else! I'm more inclined to lean towards #2 but I think that Snape would have had the sadistic feelings to finish Dumbledore off which I don't like because it means that Dumbledore was wrong about him and Dumbledore treated Snape wiht respect and stood up for him at a time when surely friends were slim on the ground. I do think that Snape went to Dumbledore and told him about the unbreakable vow and they came up with a plan. I wonder did they ever seriously think that Hogwarts would have been breached as it was and it would ever come to what it did. Hopefully the final book will answer questions.

I really like your ideas about Snape and the Unbreakable Vow - they help explain how Dumbledore and Snape worked the vow into their plans. That vow has always gotten in the way.

Do you think Snape was working for or against Draco in HBP? I've always found the convesation Snape has with Draco during Slughorn's Party a bit confusing. Draco was trying to hide his thoughts from Snape because he didn't want Snape to "steal" his glory. What if Snape wasn't trying to steal his glory, but to sabotoge Draco's plans? If Snape had learned what Draco was up to (assuming he was on Dumbledore's side) he would have told Dumbledore and the cabinet could have disappeared (either from the Hogwarts or B&B side) or the room could have been blocked or something else could have been done which would render Draco's plan un-doable but kept suspicion off of Snape.

I feel fairly certain that Snape didn't know what Draco was up to, but he was trying to find out so he could circumvent it.

I feel fairly certain that Snape didn't know what Draco was up to, but he was trying to find out so he could circumvent it.
Yes, he worded everything very carefully in Spinner's End, so that it wasn't quite clear how much he knew and to what extent he was bluffing. But even if Snape knew Draco's task, he would not know how Draco was going about it, if Draco refused to tell him.

I do not think Snape could have lied to Dumbledore because they were using the same Pensieve. A lot of people think they were seperate Pensieves (i think). HOWEVER! In The Lost Prophecy, b5, when Dumbledore takes out his Pensieve, Harry thinks/observes, "...carved with runes around the edges, in which Harry had seen his father tormenting Snape." In book six we learn that even for a powerful wizard (Slughorn) it is hard, if not impossible, to modify a memory that is put into the Pensieve, and if they do, we know. An hour ago I wanted Snape to not live, especially after killing my main man! I never really believed the theorys that say Snape is good, but now... this quote.... guuuuh.

Let me know what you think.

I feel fairly certain that Snape didn't know what Draco was up to, but he was trying to find out so he could circumvent it.
I agree. Snape would have wanted to know what Draco was doing in order to work it into the plan that he and Dumbledore already had in place.

As regards the Unbreakable Vow - I think Snape beleived he had sufficient room for manoeuvre so that he and Dumbledore could come up with something. The wording of the final clause "if it seems he will fail" (paraphrase) - I think Snape saw this as a way to get around the vow - hence the "faking Draco's death" plan - he cannot "seem to fail" if he "seems to be dead" However I think Snape underestimated Draco. I don't think Dumbledore did - I think Dumbledore knew what could happen, but Snape didn't think for one minute that DUmbledore would really be in danger - when he finally DID realise that it wasn't going to be that easy Dumbledore wouldn't let him back out - hence the argument that Hagrid overheard. I think it was only at that point that Snape realised that he might actually be required to kill Dumbledore - and he wasn't very happy about it!

As regards the Unbreakable Vow - I think Snape beleived he had sufficient room for manoeuvre so that he and Dumbledore could come up with something. The wording of the final clause "if it seems he will fail" (paraphrase) - I think Snape saw this as a way to get around the vow - hence the "faking Draco's death" plan - he cannot "seem to fail" if he "seems to be dead" However I think Snape underestimated Draco. I don't think Dumbledore did - I think Dumbledore knew what could happen, but Snape didn't think for one minute that DUmbledore would really be in danger - when he finally DID realise that it wasn't going to be that easy Dumbledore wouldn't let him back out - hence the argument that Hagrid overheard. I think it was only at that point that Snape realised that he might actually be required to kill Dumbledore - and he wasn't very happy about it!

Absolutely agreed about Draco, I think that Snape's hubris (like Voldemort's) is the constant tendency to underestimate Hogwarts students. Who really would have thought that Draco Malfoy would seriously finish Dumbledore off? All Draco has proven himself to be through out the series is a spoilt, under performing bully who tries to pick on just about everyone he can to make himself feel better. Strange that Snape manages to under estimate a lot of people considering he's a very skilled legimans.

I've just been reading the James Potter thread where they are discussing James underestimating Peter. It is interesting that both Snape and James appear to be guilty of underestimating people to their cost.

I think that it's something a lot of the characters are guilty of! Apparently it doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on either!

As regards the Unbreakable Vow - I think Snape beleived he had sufficient room for manoeuvre so that he and Dumbledore could come up with something. The wording of the final clause "if it seems he will fail" (paraphrase) - I think Snape saw this as a way to get around the vow - hence the "faking Draco's death" plan - he cannot "seem to fail" if he "seems to be dead" However I think Snape underestimated Draco. I don't think Dumbledore did - I think Dumbledore knew what could happen, but Snape didn't think for one minute that DUmbledore would really be in danger - when he finally DID realise that it wasn't going to be that easy Dumbledore wouldn't let him back out - hence the argument that Hagrid overheard. I think it was only at that point that Snape realised that he might actually be required to kill Dumbledore - and he wasn't very happy about it!
The problem with this is that there is no real way that Snape could have known before that Narcissa would use this wording. In fact, I find it highly strange that Snape did not ask Narcissa to say what exactly she was going to ask Snape to promise prior to the vow. It would have been completely understandable, seeing as his life was at stake.

The problem with this is that there is no real way that Snape could have known before that Narcissa would use this wording. In fact, I find it highly strange that Snape did not ask Narcissa to say what exactly she was going to ask Snape to promise prior to the vow. It would have been completely understandable, seeing as his life was at stake.
Up until that point i.e. actually taking the vow Narcissa had only spoken of Snape protecting Draco and assisting him. THe third part of the vow she seemed to throw in at the last moment. Snape could have said "No" to that part but I think he saw a way around it. I agree that he completely backed himself into a corner at Spinner's End, but then in his position it had to happen sooner or later. He certainly seemed to think about the third clause before agreeing to it - that is how I interpret the hand twitch anyway.

Yes, he worded everything very carefully in Spinner's End, so that it wasn't quite clear how much he knew and to what extent he was bluffing. But even if Snape knew Draco's task, he would not know how Draco was going about it, if Draco refused to tell him.I´m still not sure if Snape knew about Draco´s task at Spinner´s End. But I tend to think he was bluffing. Maybe he had an idea. Dumbledore was considered the only wizard Voldemort feared after all. Thus, a DE´s son Hogwarts student entrusted with an obviously important and risky task.... Not much brain grease needed to figure out that it could possibly be that Dumbledore was a target, IMO.

As regards the Unbreakable Vow - I think Snape beleived he had sufficient room for manoeuvre so that he and Dumbledore could come up with something. The wording of the final clause "if it seems he will fail" (paraphrase) - I think Snape saw this as a way to get around the vow - hence the "faking Draco's death" plan - he cannot "seem to fail" if he "seems to be dead" However I think Snape underestimated Draco. I don't think Dumbledore did - I think Dumbledore knew what could happen, but Snape didn't think for one minute that DUmbledore would really be in danger - when he finally DID realise that it wasn't going to be that easy Dumbledore wouldn't let him back out - hence the argument that Hagrid overheard. I think it was only at that point that Snape realised that he might actually be required to kill Dumbledore - and he wasn't very happy about it!Yes, that´s how I see it as well. I don´t think Snape went to Dumbledore after the Vow thinking: "Oh, I have to kill him." Presumed, he knew or figured what the task would be. I can imagine he went to Dumbledore being sure the two together could work something out.

THe third part of the vow she seemed to throw in at the last moment. Snape could have said "No" to that part but I think he saw a way around it. I agree that he completely backed himself into a corner at Spinner's End, but then in his position it had to happen sooner or later. He certainly seemed to think about the third clause before agreeing to it - that is how I interpret the hand twitch anyway.:agree: Although, I think the hand twitching was before the third clause was worded. I think at that moment he was nervous about what else Narcissa could be asking for, maybe he even anticipated what was coming.

I´m still not sure if Snape knew about Draco´s task at Spinner´s End. But I tend to think he was bluffing.
I tend to think that it would be quite stupid of Snape to make an unbreakable vow over a bluff. I don't think that Snape is that stupid.

I tend to think that it would be quite stupid of Snape to make an unbreakable vow over a bluff. I don't think that Snape is that stupid. I agree! If he didn't know when the sisters arrived I think he did by the time he made the vow. Narcissa was very upset so I don't think Snape would have to delve to deep with Leglimency to see what Draco's task was. To make an unbreakable vow to do something when you don't know what that something is would seem to be the height of stupidity! And while I think Snape would sacrifice himself to bring Voldemort down, he also recognises the value of his contribution as a spy close to Voldemort.

I don't for a minute believe that Snape was reckless enough to make an Unbreakable Vow without knowing what it was about. But I'm not sure that he knew all the details, unless he had been frantically Legilimencing Narcissa. At the beginning of their meeting, he is fishing for information while trying to give the impression that he already knows it.

Unless, of course, Snape wasn't all that bothered about the possibility of killing Dumbledore ... I wonder if we will ever find out.

I don't for a minute believe that Snape was reckless enough to make an Unbreakable Vow without knowing what it was about. But I'm not sure that he knew all the details, unless he had been frantically Legilimencing Narcissa. At the beginning of their meeting, he is fishing for information while trying to give the impression that he already knows it.

Unless, of course, Snape wasn't all that bothered about the possibility of killing Dumbledore ... I wonder if we will ever find out.I´m not saying that Snape is stupid. I´m not that stupid. :D But nevertheless, I don´t think it´s completely impossible he was bluffing. At least, as you put it, at the beginning. I think Snape could put two and two together about what would likely be Draco´s task. The text of Spinner´s End is so cleverly worded, that we can only speculate. I always had the impression Snape was kind of tricked into making the Vow. Never underestimate a desperate mother. And Bellatrix with her suspicions had her part in it as well. I think Snape might have thought at first that the Vow was about him protecting Draco by all means. The third condition couldn´t have been foreseen. And protecting Draco was something he was about to do anyway. So no problem with making a Vow about that. Idk. The whole chapter is very mysterious and a bit confusing for me. I am about to change my mind on certain aspects on a daily basis. :lol:

I´m not saying that Snape is stupid. I´m not that stupid. :D But nevertheless, I don´t think it´s completely impossible he was bluffing. At least, as you put it, at the beginning. I think Snape could put two and two together about what would likely be Draco´s task. The text of Spinner´s End is so cleverly worded, that we can only speculate. I always had the impression Snape was kind of tricked into making the Vow. Never underestimate a desperate mother. And Bellatrix with her suspicions had her part in it as well. I think Snape might have thought at first that the Vow was about him protecting Draco by all means. The third condition couldn´t have been foreseen. And protecting Draco was something he was about to do anyway. So no problem with making a Vow about that. Idk. The whole chapter is very mysterious and a bit confusing for me. I am about to change my mind on certain aspects on a daily basis. :lol:

Hi ronjalina,
I understand that you're of two minds (maybe more) about all this, but I can't help but notice that even your comment above contradicts itself several times.

Snape would have to have been worse than stupid to allow himself to be tricked by a few tears into making a vow that required him to commit a murder that he was not comfortable to commit. He surely knew what he was dealing with (not to mention that whatever else we may think about him, he's hardly the sentimental type, likely to be thrown into disarray by some fairly obvious 'feminine distress' techniques).

So either you are saying Snape was stupid - or you aren't - you really can't have it both ways! :whistle:

It makes sense to me. If Snape did not know anything about Draco's task beyond it's existence, he would be fishing for information, bluffing. It's possible that even when taking the vow, he was unaware that Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore (a fact strongly hinted at but still not established in canon.)

I can see him thinking "Well, whatever his task is, I'm sure I can handle it if he can't," unaware of what the task really entailed until it was too late.

I can see him thinking "Well, whatever his task is, I'm sure I can handle it if he can't," unaware of what the task really entailed until it was too late.
I don't think Snape would knowingly let himself in for a task that his life depended on, without having at least some idea of what it was. This, along with his little speech in the first DADA lesson, is what makes me think he was still wavering in his loyalty at that point - still playing one master off against the other.

Well, he did get rather railroaded into this one. If he had refused, I'm sure Bella would have immediately gone to Voldemort with a tall tale about how Snape is unwilling to assist Draco with a task set him by himself, Voldemort, and in fact seemed to hope it would fail, I told you, he cannot be trusted, and so on.

This is indicated here:

"If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the unbreakable vow?"

"The Unbreakable Vow?"

Snape's expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.

"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out of action... oh, on the Dark Lord's orders, of course!"

What is she so triumphant about? She believes she has just been handed proof that Snape is all talk and no action, especially when it comes to Voldemort's plans and wishes. If Snape had refused, it may not have gone well for him at all if Bella got to Voldemort first. I believe the UV was to prove to Bellatrix that he would risk his life to further Voldemort's purposes just as much as (if not more than) any desire to protect Draco. She is quite shocked that he accepted Narcissa's offer to make the vow.

It's possible that Snape, being a s confident in his own power as he was, would not have anticipated Draco being given, even in revenge, a task he himself could not handle easily. And he could, magically, handle it easily- the moral and positional problems are what made it so difficult, not just the actual act of casting the killing curse.

What is she so triumphant about? She believes she has just been handed proof that Snape is all talk and no action, especially when it comes to Voldemort's plans and wishes. If Snape had refused, it may not have gone well for him at all if Bella got to Voldemort first. I believe the UV was to prove to Bellatrix that he would risk his life to further Voldemort's purposes just as much as (if not more than) any desire to protect Draco. She is quite shocked that he accepted Narcissa's offer to make the vow.

It's possible that Snape, being a s confident in his own power as he was, would not have anticipated Draco being given, even in revenge, a task he himself could not handle easily. And he could, magically, handle it easily- the moral and positional problems are what made it so difficult, not just the actual act of casting the killing curse.I'll buy that. Especially if Snape took the idea of killing someone at Hogwarts lightly ... But, yes he was backed into a corner at that point. I still think he must have had some idea of what the task was, though.

Yes, I believe so. That's why Jo inserted the twitch on hearing the third clause. For someone with Snape's self control, that's a pretty obvious reaction of surprise and dismay- of feeling he'd just been 'trapped' and instinctively wanting to pull away.

I have a feeling he knew that, based on her pleas, she was going to ask him to vow to watch over and protect Draco, but I think the 'do it yourself it he blows it' clause was a shocker. Bellatrix was clearly shocked by it, and astounded at his acceptance.

Hi ronjalina,
I understand that you're of two minds (maybe more) about all this, but I can't help but notice that even your comment above contradicts itself several times.

Snape would have to have been worse than stupid to allow himself to be tricked by a few tears into making a vow that required him to commit a murder that he was not comfortable to commit. He surely knew what he was dealing with (not to mention that whatever else we may think about him, he's hardly the sentimental type, likely to be thrown into disarray by some fairly obvious 'feminine distress' techniques).

So either you are saying Snape was stupid - or you aren't - you really can't have it both ways! :whistle:I see where you have problems with my reasoning. I personally don´t think that it´s contradictory. Life, and HP books as well, aren´t black or white. There are many shades of grey in between. And Snape definately represents a shade of grey.
Do you think, someone who gets him-/herself into a "tricky" situation is stupid? I think Snape isn´t stupid, he is clever, nevertheless he´s written by JKR as a human being and human being make mistakes. And I have never said it was Narcissa´s tears that got him to make the vow. It´s a mixture of different things. A bit, like Hinoema indicated, Snape was so confident in himself that he thought, whatever it was, he could handle it. And he might have been fishing for the information what Draco´s task was (although I admit, I am of two minds about this. Maybe he really knew in advance).
Nevertheless, the hand twitching conveys that he didn´t anitcipate what was coming, he didn´t anticipate a third condition, he never dreamt of the possiblility Narcissa would ask him to fulfill his task. Does that make him stupid? Not how I understand the term "stupid". But everyone is free to see it differently of course.


This is indicated here:



What is she so triumphant about? She believes she has just been handed proof that Snape is all talk and no action, especially when it comes to Voldemort's plans and wishes. If Snape had refused, it may not have gone well for him at all if Bella got to Voldemort first. I believe the UV was to prove to Bellatrix that he would risk his life to further Voldemort's purposes just as much as (if not more than) any desire to protect Draco. She is quite shocked that he accepted Narcissa's offer to make the vow.

It's possible that Snape, being a s confident in his own power as he was, would not have anticipated Draco being given, even in revenge, a task he himself could not handle easily. And he could, magically, handle it easily- the moral and positional problems are what made it so difficult, not just the actual act of casting the killing curse.Yeah, that´s how I saw this scene as well.

Yes, I believe so. That's why Jo inserted the twitch on hearing the third clause. For someone with Snape's self control, that's a pretty obvious reaction of surprise and dismay- of feeling he'd just been 'trapped' and instinctively wanting to pull away.

I have a feeling he knew that, based on her pleas, she was going to ask him to vow to watch over and protect Draco, but I think the 'do it yourself it he blows it' clause was a shocker. Bellatrix was clearly shocked by it, and astounded at his acceptance.:agree:

He surely knew what he was dealing with (not to mention that whatever else we may think about him, he's hardly the sentimental type, likely to be thrown into disarray by some fairly obvious 'feminine distress' techniques).
I'd think that not being the sentimental type would mean that SNape is MORE likely to be thrown into dissarray by Narcissa's tears. Being so much in control of himself I think he feels distinctly uncomfortable with Narcissa's blatant show of emotion and really doesn't know how to deal with it. He's far more comfortable parrying Bella's jibes.

Ok, so I was watching part of a documentary on Jesus the other day and I realized that a case could be made for Dumbledore being Jesus and Snape being Judas. If you want to look at it from a biblical aspect. Everyone always believed Judas was some horrid evil sell out who was responsible for Christ's murder. Than a millenia or so later we find the lost gospels of Judas saying how Jesus more or less asked him to do the deed. Before Jesus was crucified he did all sorts of things that eventually added fuel to the fire for his execution. Things were quickly spiraling out of control likewise with Dumbledore's death. Jesus knew he was going to die. He knew his end was near and according to Judas he asked him to betray, he said that he needed him to. Now, I've never been big on Snape and my personal opinion is that he is rotten but I like discussing all sides of him the good and the horrible. Judas's situation is the same with Snape's. Jesus told Judas he would be hated for all time. Snape murdered DD and you all know there is no one in the wizarding world least of all Harry who will ever seem him as anything other than a traitor.
Judas had no proof he could have possibly given to the rest of the apostles but his word and none of them were going to just believe his word. His gospels have been lost for over a 1000 years. With Snape what proof could he offer? Lets be reasonable people. A pensieve really isn't going to cut it since we know memories can be altered.A written note isn't going to smooth thins over and the Order members would probably sooner see him dead than listen to what he has to say. Just as Jesus never left proof of Judas's innocence neither did Dumbledore.
Jesus died for the sins of mankind but what did Dumbledore die for? Voldemort simply wanted DD out of the way. He needed acess to Hogwarts and to Harry which he couldn't do with DD there. So how does Dumbledore's death help anyone? Snape is still a spy but a double agent still? one of his masters is now dead. He can't give any knowledge to the Order since they definitely don't trust him now. So either Snape is truly evil or he and DD had some master plan to bring Voldemort down. A plan that required Snape to be close to Voldemort.

So lets say Snape and DD did have some grand plan requiring Snape to get close to Voldemort. Why then did Snape originally switch sides and join Dumbledore? Voldemort was at the height of his power while DD was on the losing side. Members of the Order wre being killed off, you could trust no one and the ministry was inefficent. Terror reigned. Snape's goal in life has always been to improve himself. Show himself off as the worthiest and the best. He has always been after the glory and respect he feels he deserves that has been long denied him. Voldemort could offer him that. Snape was the grand master of potions, an expert at the dark arts, and accomplished at legilems and occlumency. He could go far with Voldermort. Many people are bias towards Snape but I have read all 6 books inside and outside till the covers have been ripped off and the pages are falling out. My own personal observation of Snape is that he does not strike me as the type to suddenly have a sudden change of heart and go weeping on bended knee confessing the errors of his ways like some weak school boy. Snape's nature has always been very nasty. He may have been the victim with the Marauders but as Rowling has said (not her exact words) that Snape was no angel himself and some of things that happened to him were deserved. Following Voldemort must have been like a dream come true. I do not believe Snape would have just turned against Voldemort without good reason that involved and/or benefited himself. One reason I can see Snape leaving Voldemort is if he found out about his master's heritage. A halfblood like himself. Very hypocritical. Maybe Snape saw "the light." Another reason is if Snape had his own personal vendetta against Voldemort. It would explain the risks Snape took and how far he seemed willing to go as a spy.

Still either Snape was truly remorseful or he is an extremely good actor. I find it down right stupid on DD's part to honestly believe Snape on him just repenting his actions. To have put such deep trust in Snape the way he did? Given the times they were living in it just seems foolish to be so trusting when your friends were getting killed and the government was corrupt. You could barely trust your own family and DD trusted Snape after a woeful, "I'm sorry." DD owed it to the Order to get more than that from Snape. This was their lives he could be placing in danger by accepting Snape.


I can't help it but I find Snape to be one of the most fascinating characters in the series. Recently Rowling updated her site and she made a comment regarding Snape, sort of : Dan has changed his theory on Snape; he says he doesn't want to be like one of those people who are photographed, beaming, next to mad dictators.
So maybe Snape truly did have a change of heart. Maybe he realized just how insane Voldemort's world was and decided to leave but realized he couldn't very well just walk away unless he planned to die. The only way out would be to find a way to bring Voldemort down and that would require him to act as spy. Snape may have his dark side but he isn't a pyschopath who enjoys hurting innocent people for thrills. Snape may not be my favorite character but I honestly don't see him as having that side. He's no where on the level of Bellatrix. Bellatrix, is truly insane on a sadistic irrational level and she has an impulsive nature. Bellatrix is the type to torture puppies and kittens for fun. I don't see Snape as being that cruel. I hate how Snape has treated Harry and Neville. He was a horrible teacher to both of them and it just goes to show that being the best at something doesn't necessarily make you a decent teacher. Anyways back to what I was saying Bellatrix worships everything about Voldemort. She would sacrfice herself on a burning pyre for Voldemort. She would go to any lengths necessary to help the dark lord. Snape has always been out for his own survival. Snape does not strike me as the type to die for anyone least of all Voldemort. So perhaps Snape realized just how insane Voldemort was. Here is Voldemort, going on a quest for ever lasting immortality, practically promising muggle enslavement if not genocide, torturing people, killing people, forcing people into his service. Voldemort's world would grant him absolute power. Snape may or may not even know Voldemort is a halfblood like himself! As a DE Snape was bound to have seen and done a load of inhumae actions.

Has anyone seen the Last King of Scotland? Its a new film that just came out and basically its about this doctor, just graduated from med school who goes off into the world and ends up in Africa because he wants adventure. He ends up befriending the new dictator of some African nation and becomes his confident. THe young man adores the dictator at first. He falls for his charisma, his propaganda, etc. He treads the fine line between being confident and a normal subservient employee. Eventually because of the young man's actions people end up dead and chaos insues. He was young, immature, and ignorant in the ways of the world. But as the body count rises and he sees the things his dictator does he becomes disillusioned with the man he had originally admired. In order to get out of the country he ends up being forced to act as "spy" in the sense that foreign governments want information in exchange for a ticket out. I think this young man's situation could be similar to Snape's. Snape wants glory and power for himself but maybe he realized that Voldemort's world was just to insane and too unrealistic.

There is a thread about that here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=61536). :D I don't see why we can't discuss the Snape aspect of it here too, though.

Well, here goes my view of Snape:

I’m not sure whether he is in the dark or the good side, but I’m sure that whoever he works for, he has an obscure past that affects his personality and decisions as well.

He has this mysterious air, and is very reserved, as if he was scared he might do or say something he shouldn’t. The way he acts makes you think really bad about him, no doubt no one hesitated to believe he was a Death Eater.

His past, which we now know wasn’t very happy (because of short snaps of Snape’s childhood Harry saw during his Oclumency classes), and his years at Hogwarts were miserable as well. And of course, his years as Death Eater, during which he spent time with not so friendly people. It all makes Severus a mysterious, unpredictable person.

But I believe one can have an obscure personality without being in the dark side. Where his loyalty lies is not clear to me yet, but we’ll soon see.

Well, here goes my view of Snape:

I’m not sure whether he is in the dark or the good side, but I’m sure that whoever he works for, he has an obscure past that affects his personality and decisions as well.

He has this mysterious air, and is very reserved, as if he was scared he might do or say something he shouldn’t. The way he acts makes you think really bad about him, no doubt no one hesitated to believe he was a Death Eater.

His past, which we now know wasn’t very happy (because of short snaps of Snape’s childhood Harry saw during his Oclumency classes), and his years at Hogwarts were miserable as well. And of course, his years as Death Eater, during which he spent time with not so friendly people. It all makes Severus a mysterious, unpredictable person.

But I believe one can have an obscure personality without being in the dark side. Where his loyalty lies is not clear to me yet, but we’ll soon see.



Well, I agree in a way with cuddles. Snapes past wasn't a very happy one with what we've seen Harry find out in his Oclumency Lessons with Professor Snape.

I am no expert with doing research, but with what i have found i think that in a way Snape could be working both sides. I think he will stick to the winning side, he has no true alligence with Dumbledore or with Voldemort. He gives enough information to both sides to make them believe he is on either side. That probably makes no sence so im sorry if it dosent.

During the first 5 books it seems that Snape has cut off his ties to the Dark Lord, to make Dumbledore believe that he is loyal to him. But now in the sixth book he did the dirty deed by killing Dumbledore in the sixth book to make Voldemort believe he is loyal to him. < spoiler for the sixth book

So in a way Snape might not have ties to either side he might just be making both sides believe he is loyal when really he has no true side. Again that might not make sence sorry...:shrug: Really Snape is portraying his Slytherin aspects and not revieling his true colors... I am not sure if i am even close to right but tha tis what i think of our dear professor Snape..!

Hi Ditz,

you're ok for posting about Harry Potter and the HBP, no spoiler tags needed for that :)


Really Snape is portraying his Slytherin aspects and not revieling his true colors... I am not sure if i am even close to right but tha tis what i think of our dear professor Snape..!
Absolutely agreed, he's an enigma wrapped in a riddle shouded in mystery! I really think the person who knows where his intentions lie is Snape himself.

It's really confusing, but I don't think he is in both sides. Either he works for one, or for the other. He has given so many signals to make us think he is in the good one, but so many others to make us doubt about his loyalty, that I can no longer tell for sure who he works for.

I sometimes think I'm being sttuborn, because I keep telling myself that Snape's loyalty really lies with Dumbledore, and that in the 7th book we will see some explanation to his actions at the end of the 6ht book. I do hope he is in our side (the good one) because, even though this might sound strange, I really really like him!

I posted my thought of Snape on this thread before but i have something to add to it. I think that Snape could be on either side because when he was making the vow with Narcissa his hand twitched
"And, should it prove necessary, if it seems Draco will fail," whispered Narcissa (Snape’s hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
There was a moment’s silence, Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.
"I will," said Snape.

I mean that certainly dosent mean much but i think he was hesitating when his hand twitched; i dont think he really wanted to take the vow but he did it anyway.


On the rooftop when Snape is getting ready to perform the Killing Curse on Dumbledore; Dumbledore pleads with Snape (is Dumbledore pleading for his life; or to save Harry from the other Death Eaters present???)

But on the other in end while on the rooftop when Snape knew that it was Dracos job to kill Dumbledore and Draco was hesitant to do just that Snape did the deed. He killed Dumbledore (did he do it to save his own neck when he knew Draco would be in deep trouble with the Dark Lord and with the vow hanging over his head he would suffer the consequences if something happened to Draco???) I was re-reading HBP last night and these thoughts occured to me i am STILL not sure which side Severus Snape is on..!

I think that Snape needed that hesitation to make sure that he could fit that clause into his overall plan for how to use the vow.

Don't worry, ditz, snape is a confusing character. Although I think that he's working for Dumbledore, I think that there is proof to back up most opinions about snape.

I think no one is. But I think that his hand twitching might mean that he really is on the good side, and he knew what he was doing. But have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow. That he ordered Snape to do it if it was necessary. Maybe they planned Dumbledore's death from the beginning.

I really don't know what to think right now. So many ideas, hipotesis, views. It is impossible to say if Snape if good or evil.

If anyone's interested, here's my theory about snape that I posted in the "Snape's Betrayal" thread:


1) Dumbledore sends Harry to get snape, who can heal him and perhaps tell him about the intruder in the building.
2) Draco appears, though harry does not see him.
3) Dumbledore realizes that Draco is going to "seem to fail", which will set off the unforgivable curse should Snape be present.
4) dumbledore freezes Harry so that Snape will not come.

That is what I think was the original plan.

5)Then (according to my theory), Snape did not know that Malfoy was up on the tower, for whatever reason, and came to help fight death eaters.

6) Malfoy "seemed to fail", and Snape implemented their backup plan. The backup plan is my original theory that i posted a few days ago:


Spinners End is the real sticky issue here, as it seems weird that a loyal Snape would vow to kill Dumbledore. So I think that our lack of information on how the unbreakable vow works really helps the good!snape people here. I think that a real attempt at the vow will cover it. Therefore, Snape decided that as he could not feel sadistic in murdering Dumbledore (a prerequisite emotion for an unforgivable as reported by Bellatrix Lestrange, who ought to know), he would not be able to go through with the Avada Kevadra curse.

Later Snape and Dumbledore decided that Snape would attempt to Avada Kevadra Dumbledore, which would have only the affect of propelling Dumbledore off the ground for a few feet. Then the unbreakable vow would be fulfilled, and as Snape tried, he could still go back to Voldemort. (I get this possiblility from Harry's failed unforgivable which had a minor effect on Bellatrix)

Unfortunately, all of this was not supposed to happen on the astronomy tower, and Dumbledore fell off and died as result of the fall. (If you notice during this scene in HPB, the petrificus totalus on Harry did not dissappear until after Dumbledore fell of the tower, and the Avada Kevadra is supposed to work instantaneously)

Therefore, Dumbledore's death was an accident.

The problem with my theory is that it doesn't account for a few things, namely, why Snape stunned Flitwick. I'm going to have to think about how to tie that in.

5)Then (according to my theory), Snape did not know that Malfoy was up on the tower, for whatever reason, and came to help fight death eaters. Yes, but Snape knew of Draco´s task. Wouldn´t he look for where Draco was the moment DEs intruded in Hogwarts? Then he must know that Draco was where Dumbledore was. I don´t have the book with me, seemed Snape surprised at finding Draco on the tower?

Later Snape and Dumbledore decided that Snape would attempt to Avada Kevadra Dumbledore, which would have only the affect of propelling Dumbledore off the ground for a few feet. Then the unbreakable vow would be fulfilled, and as Snape tried, he could still go back to Voldemort. (I get this possiblility from Harry's failed unforgivable which had a minor effect on Bellatrix)

Unfortunately, all of this was not supposed to happen on the astronomy tower, and Dumbledore fell off and died as result of the fall. (If you notice during this scene in HPB, the petrificus totalus on Harry did not dissappear until after Dumbledore fell of the tower, and the Avada Kevadra is supposed to work instantaneously)That would be consistent with everything we know about the AK and with what is shown onpage.
It would be consistent with:

- the Snape is on the good side theories
- the seemingly odd AK on the tower
- Dumbledore is really dead (but not from the AK)
- Dumbledore´s closed eyes
- why the freezing charm on Harry wasn´t lifted immediately
- why Snape didn´t die from the vow

The problem I have with the AK is: If it really wasn´t executed properly and looked odd, wouldn´t the other DEs have noticed it as well and maybe recounted it to LV?

I think it is a good theory, Rell. But you are right, the Flitwick incident doesn't fit. But I don't see how Dumbledore's death coud have been and accident. He could have died from the fall, but I think it was all planned. If not, it is a great inconvinient for the good side. We all supose Dumboedore's death is part of a plan, but if he died in an accident, there are few chances to see a plan in the 7th book.

The problem I have with the AK is: If it really wasn´t executed properly and looked odd, wouldn´t the other DEs have noticed it as well and maybe recounted it to LV?
how do we know that they didn't report it to Voldemort?

Remember that Dumbledore and Snape would have planned for this to happen only in front of Draco, who may not have seen many other Avada Kevadras to compare it. They did not know Draco's plan to get experienced Death Eaters into the castle, but by then it was too late to change the plan.
But I don't see how Dumbledore's death coud have been and accident. He could have died from the fall, but I think it was all planned. If not, it is a great inconvinient for the good side. We all supose Dumboedore's death is part of a plan, but if he died in an accident, there are few chances to see a plan in the 7th book.
Well, it's a definite inconvenience, no one's going to argue against that!

A lot of people agree with you cuddles, I just don't see Dumbledore thinking that his death would help anyone. I know that Dumbledore doesn't fear death, but he surely appreciates the value of life as well! The only way I would agree with this theory is if Dumbledore told someone else in advance that he planned on telling Snape to kill him. Otherwise, Snape can no longer spy for the order, as no one trusts him anymore.

how do we know that they didn't report it to Voldemort?Ah, that´s true, we don´t know that.

Remember that Dumbledore and Snape would have planned for this to happen only in front of Draco, who may not have seen many other Avada Kevadras to compare it. They did not know Draco's plan to get experienced Death Eaters into the castle, but by then it was too late to change the plan.True again. Draco wouldn´t have noticed if the AK was odd. But Snape and Dumbledore must know the DEs would notice. And when there was the possibility they would go to LV and report it would kind of uncover Snape. The whole plan - assumed it existed - would have been corrupted.

But maybe V doesn't care how Dumbledore was killed, he just wants him dead. And I do think there must be a logical explanation for Albus' death, this was not something casual.

The problem I have with the AK is: If it really wasn´t executed properly and looked odd, wouldn´t the other DEs have noticed it as well and maybe recounted it to LV?It's hard to say if they would or not. I'm not sure if LV sent these DE's to help,or if Draco was the one to recruit them himself. Either way they aren't exactly the top of the food chain! I think it is important to remember that LV didn't believe that Draco would succeed. So IMO these particular DE's would be considered expendible.

how do we know that they didn't report it to Voldemort?

I'm sure Voldemort would question them about what happened. He's not an idiot. He still doesn't completely trust Snape (Wormtail at Spinner's End). Snape I'm sure would have counted on those present giving a full report to Voldemort.


Remember that Dumbledore and Snape would have planned for this to happen only in front of Draco, who may not have seen many other Avada Kevadras to compare it. They did not know Draco's plan to get experienced Death Eaters into the castle, but by then it was too late to change the plan.

Well, I'm coming a bit late into this discussion, but I don't believe that Snape and Dumbledore planned out these events ahead of time. They would have to be gifted with the Sight to be able to do so. Draco wasn't telling Snape what his plans are and his previous attempts were of a very different nature. There would be no way for Snape or Dumbledore to know what would happen or to plan for it. Dumbledore clearly shows suprise on the tower.

Furthermore, there's no reason to think Draco wouldn't recognize an AK. It was demonstrated in DADA in GOF and someone who runs with Death Eaters is bound to see it every once in a while. Remember that in Spinner's End Bellatrix casually AKs a fox. These people use the unforgiveables like normal wizards use lumos.

I think it is important to remember that LV didn't believe that Draco would succeed. So IMO these particular DE's would be considered expendible.They certainly looked and acted expendable! Unless, with all his best DEs in Azkaban, the likes of Amycus and Alecto are all Voldemort has left! In which case it is small wonder that he appreciates a DE like Snape!

True again. Draco wouldn´t have noticed if the AK was odd. But Snape and Dumbledore must know the DEs would notice. And when there was the possibility they would go to LV and report it would kind of uncover Snape. The whole plan - assumed it existed - would have been corrupted.
but it was too late at that point to change the plan. They just had to go through with it and hope for the best.

Edit: I hope no one minds, but I'd like to change the topic. I am trying to figure out Snape's loyalties in specifics. I beleive that he was working for the order, but that his loyalties were not to the order, but to Dumbledore alone. Dumbledore is the only one who really trusts him (for reasons unknown), and I think that is part of what inspires Snape's loyalties.

but it was too late at that point to change the plan. They just had to go through with it and hope for the best.Yep, that´s pretty much possible.

Edit: I hope no one minds, but I'd like to change the topic. I am trying to figure out Snape's loyalties in specifics. I beleive that he was working for the order, but that his loyalties were not to the order, but to Dumbledore alone. Dumbledore is the only one who really trusts him (for reasons unknown), and I think that is part of what inspires Snape's loyalties. I agree. Snape seems to be a loner, not trusting or liking many people and not trusted or liked by many people. All that due to his growing up and his DE past. I´m sure we will find out the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much in DH. But Dumbledore seemed to be the only person Snape really respected. On the other hand Snape was the only person who spoke up against Dumbledore (for example at the end of PoA, when it came to Sirius). Which is, IMO, a sign of respect and trust between the two of them as well. So, when I say that Snape is on the good side, the main reason why he is on the good side would be Dumbledore and the special relationship between these two men.

I'm thinking now that without Dumbledore, Snape might have left the Death Eaters anyway when he did, but that he wouldn't have necessarily joined the order. But because Dumbledore specifically is in charges, Snape came over.

I'm thinking now that without Dumbledore, Snape might have left the Death Eaters anyway when he did, but that he wouldn't have necessarily joined the order. But because Dumbledore specifically is in charges, Snape came over.

On the contrary, Snape never technically left the Death Eaters. And never would have been able to. We've seen what can happen to people who try. Snape has always been a Death Eater, just a DE who spied for Dumbledore. Why would Snape, a survivor, do such a dangerous thing? That is the important question.

My own theory is that part of the reason (at least) is the simple fact that he heard the prophecy. He knew that Voldemort was vulnerable and could be defeated. Whether it was out of pure selfishness, simply wanting to be on the winning side, or because he had realized the evil of Voldemort and wanted to end it, is unclear. But this knowledge certainly played a part in his decision.

I agree, Rell.
I also think that post-HBP, he's not loyal to Voldemort - but even if the Order would have him back, he'd prefer to work on his own. So to someone like Harry, to whom being on the good side pretty much means being part of the order, he's never going to look good. He's never going to be trusted, but then he doesn't really trust anyone himself.

I think he has a plan. A plan that he made with Dumbledore before he died. Now he must pretend he is loyal to Voldemort, because the members of the Order do not trust him anymore. But if he could return to the Order, I think he would, even if he doesn't like the members.

I always wanted to know what sort of relationship did Dumbledore and Snape have. It would be rather interesting. I think it would be something between friends and colleagues, something a little more familiar, you know.

I think he has a plan. A plan that he made with Dumbledore before he died. Now he must pretend he is loyal to Voldemort, because the members of the Order do not trust him anymore. But if he could return to the Order, I think he would, even if he doesn't like the members. I always wanted to know what sort of relationship did Dumbledore and Snape have. It would be rather interesting. I think it would be something between friends and colleagues, something a little more familiar, you know.
Cuddles, what are your ideas about how Snape is going to communicate his findings to the order now that they no longer trust him?

I am trying to figure out Snape's loyalties in specifics. I beleive that he was working for the order, but that his loyalties were not to the order, but to Dumbledore alone. Dumbledore is the only one who really trusts him (for reasons unknown), and I think that is part of what inspires Snape's loyalties.

First of all, I think that Dumbledore is the Order. One can't be allied with one without also being allied to the other. That's not to say that without Dumbledore, the Order will crumble, but the Order was the brainchild and working passion of Dumbledore. I don't see how Snape could be completely loyal to Dumbledore without sharing his ideologies as well.

Secondly, Dumbledore was not the only one who really trusted Snape. True, he's the one we hear harping on it on practically every page of HBP, but the shock, outrage, and awe at the end of HBP goes to show that Dumbledore's word was good enough for at least Lupin and McGonnagal.

First of all, I think that Dumbledore is the Order. One can't be allied with one without also being allied to the other. That's not to say that without Dumbledore, the Order will crumble, but the Order was the brainchild and working passion of Dumbledore. I don't see how Snape could be completely loyal to Dumbledore without sharing his ideologies as well.
One cannot be allied to one without being allied to the other. That doesn't mean one;s loyalty must lie with both. I agree that that applied up until Dumbldore's death. But while he shares Dumbledore's goals - an end to Voldemort's power, etc. - he doesn't nessecarily agree with Dumbldore as to the best way to reach that. While Dumbledore was alive, his loyalty prevented him doing anything Dumbledore didn't approve of, and so he was following the Order's path becasue that's what Dumbledore wanted.
Without Dumbledore, Snape is free to fight against Voldemort in whatever way he wants, which may not be the same as the Order's way. The Order shares Dumbledore's ideals and morality as well as his goals, Snape doesn't.
By free, I don't mean to say Dumbledore was deliberately constraining Snape, but that Snape's own loyalty prevented him from doing thing he knew Dumbledore would disapprove of.

Secondly, Dumbledore was not the only one who really trusted Snape. True, he's the one we hear harping on it on practically every page of HBP, but the shock, outrage, and awe at the end of HBP goes to show that Dumbledore's word was good enough for at least Lupin and McGonnagal.

The shock also proves that their trust is over now, though. Whatever they thought before, it was because they trusted Dumbledore's judgement, not because they trusted Snape himself. They were shocked that Dumbledore was wrong as much as that Snape was a traitor.

Rell: I pretty much agree with Cuddles, so I hope you don't mind if I answer your question in terms of my beliefs:
If Snape has a plan, it's not a plan he's expecting to communicate to the Order. His findings are to use for himself - his plan may even depend on them truly beleiving him to be a traitor.

I'm sorry to bring up references you may not have encountered, but if anyone has read Clash Of Kings ... there's a scene in there which seems to me to almost exactly mirror what happend with Dumbledore and Snape in the "Snape and Dumbledore had a plan toether" scenario.
Two characters (Jon Snow and his leader, Qhorin) are trapped in a situation they can't escape - their enemies are coming to get them, they can't escape or get back to their group. Qhorin orders Jon to desert, to go over to the enemy, to watch and to use what he learns. And to do whatever it takes for that. The first thing Jon is told to do, to prove he's truly deserted, is to kill Qhorin. And he does.
I just thought I'd share that, because it gives you an insight into what Snape's betrayal might look like from the other side.

And this is the reason Qhorin gives Jon, when he would have refused, and died with Qhorin, because he'd sworn an oath to defend the realm from the invaders, to the death:
"Our honour means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe"

Noone has to know of the plan. Noone can, there's no way to tell. No way out, just as Snape has no way out - he can't contact the Order, and there's little chance they'd beleive him if he could. That doesn't mean there's no plan, or that it's worth any less. In fact, it's worth more, because it requires the person involved to be doing it knowing that whether they fail or succeed, they've lost all the trust their own true side had for them, that even if they suceed, it's more than likely their own side will still hate them.
That takes more courage than fighting knowing you have a reward waiting for you, that you will come out of it and be praised. Even if that's not what you're fighting for, it makes you feel better to know you will be loved if you live and well-remembered if you die.

One cannot be allied to one without being allied to the other. That doesn't mean one;s loyalty must lie with both.
IMO, in this case, it does mean that. Unless you're postulating that Snape was using his alliance with Dumbledore for his own ends, unswerving loyalty to Dumbledore, who, as I said, is the heart and soul of the Order, is unswerving loyalty to the tenets and idealogies of the Order.
I agree that that applied up until Dumbldore's death. But while he shares Dumbledore's goals - an end to Voldemort's power, etc. - he doesn't nessecarily agree with Dumbldore as to the best way to reach that. While Dumbledore was alive, his loyalty prevented him doing anything Dumbledore didn't approve of, and so he was following the Order's path becasue that's what Dumbledore wanted.
I think that not blindly agreeing is par for the course when one is a member of a secret, underground resistance organisation. Heck, Sirius didn't agree with Dumbledore's methods and plans. Harry didn't, either, at times.
I'm a bit confused, I guess, what you mean by "loyalty" and "trust" when you suggest that the characters are acting without either in their heart of hearts?
Without Dumbledore, Snape is free to fight against Voldemort in whatever way he wants, which may not be the same as the Order's way. The Order shares Dumbledore's ideals and morality as well as his goals, Snape doesn't.
By free, I don't mean to say Dumbledore was deliberately constraining Snape, but that Snape's own loyalty prevented him from doing thing he knew Dumbledore would disapprove of.
Again, I don't see the sense of absolute loyalty if the second Dumbledore is gone, Snape goes his own way. Obviously, he can't participate in the concrete day-to-day planning of the Order, since they believe him a traitor, but why would Snape suddenly renounce his respect and honour for Dumbledore by going his own way? Is that what Harry did? Absolutely not. Dumbledore is dead now, but Harry is still Dumbledore's man through and through. I believe that Snape is the same.



The shock also proves that their trust is over now, though. Whatever they thought before, it was because they trusted Dumbledore's judgement, not because they trusted Snape himself. They were shocked that Dumbledore was wrong as much as that Snape was a traitor.

I thought that sort of went without saying. ;)

If Dumbledore trusted Snape and the members of the Order trusted Dumbledore, than they would also trust Snape as a matter of course. Not necessarily in the same way, of course, but Lupin's reversion to calling Snape "Snape" is telling. He lost that respect, which goes to show that he had some to lose.

Cuddles, what are your ideas about how Snape is going to communicate his findings to the order now that they no longer trust him?

I don't really know, but if I have learnt something about this books, is that nothing is really impossible, so maybe he will find a way of helping the Order, in his own particular way, and without them knowing about it.

Someone (I can't remember who) said that Snape could now act freely, and fight Voldemort in his own way, which is exactly what I think he will do.

Okay, I think that your version of events probably has just as much merit as mine, and I really have no more to say on the subject.

New topic: So I've been wondering about a bit more about Snape's version of events in Spinners End. Specifically the events of PS/SS. See, Bellatrix forgot an important question. Once Snape knew that Voldemort was still "alive", how did he justify not trying to find him?

So I've been wondering about a bit more about Snape's version of events in Spinners End. Specifically the events of PS/SS. See, Bellatrix forgot an important question. Once Snape knew that Voldemort was still "alive", how did he justify not trying to find him?

Didn't Snape say at one point that he couldn't be sure that Quirrel was working directly with Voldemort?

Didn't Snape say at one point that he couldn't be sure that Quirrel was working directly with Voldemort?
"why I stood between the Dark Lord and the Philosopher's Stone. that is easily answered. He did not know whether he could trust me. He thought, like you, that I had turned from faithful Death Eater to Dumbledore's stooge. He was in a pitiable condition, very weak, sharing the body of a mediocre wizard. He did not dare reveal himself to a former ally if that ally might turn him over to Dumbledore or the Ministry. I deeply regret that he did not trust me. He would have returned to power three years sooner. As it was, I saw only greedy and unworthy Quirrell attempting to steal the Stone and, I admit, I did all I could to thwart him."

"why I stood between the Dark Lord and the Philosopher's Stone. that is easily answered. He did not know whether he could trust me. He thought, like you, that I had turned from faithful Death Eater to Dumbledore's stooge. He was in a pitiable condition, very weak, sharing the body of a mediocre wizard. He did not dare reveal himself to a former ally if that ally might turn him over to Dumbledore or the Ministry. I deeply regret that he did not trust me. He would have returned to power three years sooner. As it was, I saw only greedy and unworthy Quirrell attempting to steal the Stone and, I admit, I did all I could to thwart him."


Ah, yes, thanks. That's the one I was thinking of. :)

I looked at the Snape related stories in the books again and I think he is a double agent.

1. PS: clearly working for the good side, with stopping Quirrel from getting the stone. (thought it is possible he didn't know LV was there) He also steps in 3 times - quidditch broom in PS, S. Shack scene in PoA and end of HBP - to protect Harry from getting hurt and is suspiciously often very quick to be on the scene with Harry (after the car landing in CoS, HBP after Draco gets the Sectumsempra, several times on the hallways of Hogwarts...), almost like he's watching him. Under DD's order?

Now for his actions after LV comes back to life:
2. GoF: Yes, he did go to the graveyard. Only after DD told him to, though. I think Karkaroff was the one LV said would die and Snape the DE who would "pay".

3. OOTP: he alerted the Order to go to the Ministry. He may have taken his time (not to get suspicious with LV), but he did. He's acting fairly normal with Harry in the Occlumency sessions until Harry's curiousity stops that.

4. HBP: I don't know whether DD knows all about the Vow , he certainly knew Draco is out to get him but doesn't seem to know Snape made a promise to Draco's mother. The F. Forrest DD-Snape talk was about Snape (he healed DD's wound from the horcrux) keeping up his double agent duties. I think the Tower scene is improvisation and they legilimented over it; the only way to keep Harry/Draco safe and keep Snape playing his role was killing DD; I don't think a heavily wounded (dying from the potion already IMO) DD and Snape would be able to defeat 3 DE's and a werewolf. Noticed how no one else got hurt, and they didn't capture Harry and Snape and Draco disapparated separately from other DE's?

Spinner's end: first, the "plan must not be talked about" thing was emphasized. So Snape can lie to Bellatrix, it's not like she will run to LV and double check. Also, note he makes Wormtail leave the stairs - to prevent eavesdropping?
I believe Snape's real reason at first to cooperate was Azkaban (and that "sorry Potters died" was just a story), and that like DD said, he was a DE at first. I do think, however, that the real reason DD trusts Snape was not yet revealed. Also, it is feasible he didn't know LV was with Quirrel. (could be bluffing too) The whole "I was curious to know if Harry is the next Dark Lord" is a lie. Snape dislikes Harry from day 1 and I don't think the question on his first day was fair. Also the claim that "DD's fault is seeing the good in everyone" - DD may be ready to trust everyone but he's not stupid; if he's had an eye on a young Tom Riddle I don't think he didn't closely watch a DE. I don't think Harry's an average wizard as Snape says: he conjured up a Patronus as first ni his class, and he has fought off Impero from LV and "Moody", it is true that his friends helped him and he had his share of luck. DD was hurt in fighting with LV in OOTP, he says. Interesting, I re-read OOTP and nothing suggests DD was in any way hurt. Perhaps this was DD's explanation for the burned hand from the horcrux?

Last but not least in HBP, we have seen Fawkes help Harry in CoS and OOTP. Interesting, then, that he doesn't show up in HBP. Maybe it's DD's legacy and his last request that it goes to Harry? JKR did say Harry is getting a new pet, and I can't think of anything better than an undying bird that can swallow AKs.

Okay, does anyone else think that in OOTP Snape was playing both sides of the coin?

Okay, does anyone else think that in OOTP Snape was playing both sides of the coin?
I think it would be interesting, if Snape were wavering back and forth for a while, or just waiting to see who would win. But I doubt it. Snape knows the prophesy. He knows that Voldemort will probably be vanquished in the end. So there would be little point.

Snape knows the prophesy. He knows that Voldemort will probably be vanquished in the end. So there would be little point.The Prophecy doesn't prove anything, though. It says that The One has the "power to vanquish the Dark Lord", not that he will succeed. "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives" - it can still go both ways.

The Prophecy doesn't prove anything, though. It says that The One has the "power to vanquish the Dark Lord", not that he will succeed. "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives" - it can still go both ways.
sorry, i mixed that up, you're right.

I think it would be interesting, if Snape were wavering back and forth for a while, or just waiting to see who would win. But I doubt it. Snape knows the prophesy. He knows that Voldemort will probably be vanquished in the end. So there would be little point.

I definately think he was waivering there. He had to endure Sirius' company and the fact that he was still alive and Dumbledore trusted him. I think that this was a major reason as to Snape's waivering. We know for sure that Snape absolutely adhored Sirius and visa versa.

Which is why I guess we see him waivering. I believe he purposely killed Sirius, just what he said in HBP, Spinner's End, I know he was putting on some of it for Bella, but I actually think that he spoke the truth about killing Sirius. He didn't plan it, but saw the opportunity and took it.

Which is why we see him settle back into position with Dumbledore after OOTP and Sirius is dead.

I feel OOTP is the only book where we actually see him waivering. The rest of the books, no matter that he's an awful person, you can still pick out his loyalty, except this one book. :eyebrows:

I definately think he was waivering there. He had to endure Sirius' company and the fact that he was still alive and Dumbledore trusted him. I think that this was a major reason as to Snape's waivering. We know for sure that Snape absolutely adhored Sirius and visa versa. Which is why I guess we see him waivering. I believe he purposely killed Sirius, just what he said in HBP, Spinner's End, I know he was putting on some of it for Bella, but I actually think that he spoke the truth about killing Sirius. He didn't plan it, but saw the opportunity and took it. Which is why we see him settle back into position with Dumbledore after OOTP and Sirius is dead. I feel OOTP is the only book where we actually see him waivering. The rest of the books, no matter that he's an awful person, you can still pick out his loyalty, except this one book.
That's an interesting take on Snape. I don't think i agree (though there's little proof either way), but that would answer a lot of the questions about why Snape took so long to alert the order that Harry and co were on their way to the ministry.

The reason I don't particularly agree is that I think Snape must have built up some level of trust and mutual respect with Dumbledore over the years he worked under him. Also, even though Snape hated Sirus, whom Dumbledore obviously trusted in OotP, Snape had the clear upper hand. He'd been successful and contributing for many years. He had Dumbledore's trust, and he was doing important and dangerous work (he also never fails to mention this bit), so I don't think that this alone would turn him away from Dumbledore.

But as I said before, it's definately a possible scenario.

That's an interesting take on Snape. I don't think i agree (though there's little proof either way), but that would answer a lot of the questions about why Snape took so long to alert the order that Harry and co were on their way to the ministry.

The reason I don't particularly agree is that I think Snape must have built up some level of trust and mutual respect with Dumbledore over the years he worked under him. Also, even though Snape hated Sirus, whom Dumbledore obviously trusted in OotP, Snape had the clear upper hand. He'd been successful and contributing for many years. He had Dumbledore's trust, and he was doing important and dangerous work (he also never fails to mention this bit), so I don't think that this alone would turn him away from Dumbledore.

But as I said before, it's definately a possible scenario.

Snape may have trusted in Dumbledore, but like Sirius, they did not trust each other. Besides, there is the grudge Snape has been carrying around with him since he was 16 years old.

That combined with the fact that he was "extremely disappointed" as Dumbledore said, which was putting that lightly about Snape's reaction to Sirius' escape.

Now we know that Snape does not seem to forget or forgive the maraunders and chooses to hold it and let it stew. That is alot of revenge that has been in the years waiting.

I don't say that Snape planned it. That would be just silly I think, but I believe he took advantage of an opportune moment.

He was getting revenge on the man he believed tried to murder him when he was 16 years old, the man that caused his "love's" death, the death of the man he owed a life-debt to, and also the man that lost his Order of Merlin First Class and all the "attention and gratitude" that he believed he deserved.

He was getting revenge on the man he believed tried to murder him when he was 16 years old, the man that caused his "love's" death, the death of the man he owed a life-debt to, and also the man that lost his Order of Merlin First Class and all the "attention and gratitude" that he believed he deserved.That's an interesting take. I thought that he was definitely stopping Harry from using Unforgivables, while also giving him tips on how to defeat Voldemort in HBP. But his behavior in OotP is more ambiguous.

I just re-read HBP and the age of Snape's book struck me. The book is 50 years old right? And we're led to believe that it was Eileen's book (Snape's mother) and that she later passed it on to Severus when he went to Hogwarts. This would firmly place Eileen in Howarts at the same time as Voldemort, eight?

What if Voldemort killed or tortured Eileen (because she married a Muggle) and that's what caused Snape to switch sides?

That's an interesting take. I thought that he was definitely stopping Harry from using Unforgivables, while also giving him tips on how to defeat Voldemort in HBP. But his behavior in OotP is more ambiguous.

It's true he did. But that was after he saw his opportune moment and took it.

I don't know if I'm the only one here, but throughout the series I've always been able to pick up that Snape was a good guy, despite him being a not so good people person, all except OOTP. :shrug:

What if Voldemort killes or tortured Eileen (because she married a Muggle) and that's what caused Snape to switch sides?

It's a possibility, but I personally, I have always felt it has been a combination of a life-debt owed to James and his hidden love for Lily that turned him. Which would make sense, seeing as Dumbeldore tells us that he was devastated when he realised who LV had picked. Why would he be devastated if James died. He loathed James for saving his life and therefore owed James a life debt, as Dumbledore hints in PS. But as much as I loath to admit it, I too think that Snape loved Lily. Just from what we know about love, a very power bit of magic and from what Sluggy said never underestimate the power of obsessive love or something along those lines. ;)

I don't know if I'm the only one here, but throughout the series I've always been able to pick up that Snape was a good guy, despite him being a not so good people person, all except OOTP.
Latisha, do you mind elaborating on where you see this in the books in general, and how this contrasts to OotP, because I don't think I'm following you. Thanks

Latisha, do you mind elaborating on where you see this in the books in general, and how this contrasts to OotP, because I don't think I'm following you. Thanks

Well,

PS - Dumbledore and Quirrellmort confirm Snape was trying to save his life.
CoS - Well, he was just his usual self.
PoA - Desperately wanted Sirius dead by execution.
GoF - Acted like a Dumbledore's man through and through.
HBP - we have the mirrors between himself, Dumbledore and Harry to confirm that he is still loyal to Dumbledore by the end of HBP.

But in OOTP, Dumbledore makes excuses, but that's all it sounds like, excuses. Snape's whole demeanor during OOTP, wasn't the same as he normally was. Okay, yeah, he was still a git (quoting Ron and the twins), but there seemed to be something more about him. He seemed too controlled I think is the word I'm looking for, as though he was calculating his every move, he seemed really sterile to me, as though he was not sure as to where his loyalties were for.

I'm sorry, I really can't elaborate more on it, as I haven't really actually been able to pinpoint exactly where I start to feel like this about his character. I have read OOTP about 4 times now and I get the same impression from Snape in this particular book all 4 times. :shrug:

But in OOTP, Dumbledore makes excuses, but that's all it sounds like, excuses. Snape's whole demeanor during OOTP, wasn't the same as he normally was. Okay, yeah, he was still a git (quoting Ron and the twins), but there seemed to be something more about him. He seemed too controlled I think is the word I'm looking for, as though he was calculating his every move, he seemed really sterile to me, as though he was not sure as to where his loyalties were for.
Thanks for elaborating, though I don't think I'm getting the same impression. I think that Snape was calculating every move because he was a spy. Voldemort is a legendary occlumens. Snape has to be very careful about what Voldemort might get at. And I see the same excuses in HPB as in OotP, I don't feel a change in Snape's tone.

Fair enough, I just really wanted to know if there was anyone else that thought Snape was a bit odd in OOTP.

I agree that he needs to be calculating because he is a spy, but in HBP, he didn't seem that concerned with being "sterile", sitting back and watching. He was having an argument with Dumbledore in the forbidden forest for one, that's isn't exactly, calculating.

What I am saying is that Snape is more 'alive' in the other books, you can feel his personal note everytime he is mentioned. But in OOTP, he is just that sterile. To me it is as though he is undecided, his old master returned, the other giving him "menial jobs" (occlumency lessons). :shrug:

I think in OOTP although Snape's cleraly one of the main characters we don't really have that much time with him. It's like he's a main character but not a main character. There was so much going on throughout the book though with people coming and going and plots to forward..... I do see what you mean though.

I think in OOTP although Snape's cleraly one of the main characters we don't really have that much time with him. It's like he's a main character but not a main character. There was so much going on throughout the book though with people coming and going and plots to forward..... I do see what you mean though.

:lol: Well that's a relief, thought I might have been imagining it for awhile there. :D

You do bring up a good point though, there is so much happening in the book, it would most probably be sensible on JK's part to have less of an already established animosity there between Harry and Snape and show at the end that it increases on Harry's part when he starts to blame Sirius' death on Snape. :shrug:

There's something that's been bothering me about Snape throughout my time in fandom and that's the scene in the Shrieking Shack. It's the only time, besides Harry's Pensieve dive, where we see Snape really lose control. Even at the end of HBP, we don't see Snape losing it completely as he does at the end of PoA.
It niggles at me, because I feel there's something about the dynamics there that we just don't know. In SWM, the assumption is made that Snape is over-the-top angry about his privacy being violated. What, then, is the motivating factor in the Shrieking Shack for his near-deranged anger? Careful reading of the scene reveals that he heard a great deal of what was said by Remus and Sirius while he was under the Invisibility Cloak, yet he acts as though it's unimportant, as though he didn't hear.
The argument has been made that his unrequited ire with Sirius could be to blame, but that just doesn't seem to fit, as he managed Sirius in OotP with sneering and sarcasm, but not lethal anger.
Is it the remembrance of the prank, freshened in his memory after his trip through the tunnel at the base of the Whomping Willow? Something completely different?
I'm not finding anything convincing.

Several things come to mind here:
1) the unknown end of swm
2) Snape does not strike me as someone who likes to be proven wrong. He has found out that Sirius and Lupin were not in on the "joke" and that Sirius did not betray the order.
3) Even if Fudge beleived Snape's version of events, the whole cunfudous (sp?) charm thing did not look very good to Dumbledore.
4) Similar to when Harry found out information about Snape in his pensieve, Harry now knows more about Snape than Snape probably wants. He may also be worried that Lupin and Sirius did or will tell Harry about the shameful things that he was subjected to at school.

These don't really answer the question - just some random thoughts.

Quote from ravenfeather:
There's something that's been bothering me about Snape throughout my time in fandom and that's the scene in the Shrieking Shack. It's the only time, besides Harry's Pensieve dive, where we see Snape really lose control. Even at the end of HBP, we don't see Snape losing it completely as he does at the end of PoA.
Quote from ravenfeather:
Is it the remembrance of the prank, freshened in his memory after his trip through the tunnel at the base of the Whomping Willow? Something completely different?

I think that it's probably a combination of factors...the whole history with the Marauders, the memory of the prank, the fact that Snape was wrong about Sirius (in this instance).

Rell, I was thinking more about the scene directly in the Shack, when Snape is completely frothing at the mouth. That's really not normal Snape behaviour. One might think he was wearing his heart on his sleeve....

I wonder if that was early series red herring, just for show, or whether there is a deeper reason for his derangement.

ravenfeather, I'll have to reread the scene to get the sequence of things again, but I think that most of what I wrote still applies. And for some reason I think that Snape was more emotional later when Sirius dissappears than in the shack.

Oh, yes, for sure Snape was completely unhinged in the infirmary after Sirius escaped! :D

Maybe I'm looking too hard at something that should be straight up, but I find the departure from his normal MO difficult in this book. One of the trademarks of Snape is that the more angry he gets, the softer his voice gets and he actually capslocks in this book. It's out of the ordinary.

Look at it this way: Snape spent at least twenty minutes listening to two of his worst enemies chatting with the other enemy's son about events that involved him personally. He had enough self control to wait until the right moment, where he finds everything perfectly set for him to frame everyone. Then Snape would have been very happy, yet he would have also been on edge in fear that things (like Hermione, he yells at her particularly) would mess up. So maybe we're looking at a combination of overdelay of gratification and extreme anxiety.

and I can't find my copy of PoA, or I'd reread the scene again.

I guess from my perspective, as someone who believes that Snape is on the right side and an overall moral individual, setting everything up perfectly to frame everyone is OOC. :shrug:

Perhaps it's merely a set up for SWM two books later, but it's still niggling at me.

I have PoA sitting right next to me, but I'm far too lazy for a marathon typing spree, so I'll wait. :)

I guess from my perspective, as someone who believes that Snape is on the right side and an overall moral individual, setting everything up perfectly to frame everyone is OOC.
But he threatens to frame everyone, and even though he doesn't actually frame Harry and Hermione, Dumbledore had to bail out Lupin.

I guess I don't remember the bit about the framing? :huh:

Well Dumbledore had to convince Fudge that Lupin was trying to save everyone's lives, so he must have been implicated. If Snape did not want to frame Lupin, no one need have mentioned him in the first place.

He was implicated in letting Sirius into the school, yes, an accusation successfully refuted by Dumbledore. I don't really see how that would be 'framing', though, the implication being that Snape was purposely trying to pin false evidence on innocent people.

I think that Snape is very controlled because he can so thoroughly lose control sometimes. He may get very quiet when he is angry, but I think that underneath he is screaming, and rarely we actually get to see him when he passes beyond the quiet stage into the hysterical one.

I agree, CBW, absolutely. There are a couple times in the series when we see him absolutely raging. That's probably why he's so harsh with Harry about letting emotions show. And, again, I understand the mechanism for his rage after the Pensieve dive. What I'm just not understanding, I guess, is what the trigger was in the Shrieking Shack.

Dumbledore says in the infirmary that Snape isn't unbalanced, he's just been disappointed. He says this "quietly". I feel like there's a clue laid just beneath the surface here and I'm just not making a vital connection.

There is something we haven't seen yet about the dynamic between Snape and Sirius, and there is something else about the dynamic between Snape and James. I think the Snape/Sirius issues concern the Prank and Regulus, and the Snape/James issues concern Lily (Snape loved Lily). Snape hates Sirius because of the Prank, and Sirius hates Snape because Snape recruited Regulus into the Hogwarts chapter of the Junior DEs.

In the shack, we might have been seeing Snape's pain about revealing the prophecy transferred to Sirius, who he thought was the betrayer. In essence, Snape was angry with Sirius for letting Voldemort kill Lily, when it was really Snape's fault that Voldemort ever sought out Lily at all.

:hmm: That does seem to be in character, reflecting his own inner turmoil onto someone else. We see this with Snape's treatment of Harry and I suspect Neville as well. This might even explain why he insulted Lily in SWM? ... Other than pride of course. :D

The argument has been made that his unrequited ire with Sirius could be to blame, but that just doesn't seem to fit, as he managed Sirius in OotP with sneering and sarcasm, but not lethal anger.
It may have something to do with Sirius being proved innocent and Dumbledore insisting that Snape and Sirius recognise each other and put aside old differences at the end of GoF. Voldemort's return changed everyone's priorities. Snape has to put up with a lot of people he personally dislikes for the sake of the Order.

Snape was very keen to prevent Sirius giving his side of the story in the Shack. Was there something he didn't want to come out - like the fact that Sirius was innocent?

Maybe I'm looking too hard at something that should be straight up, but I find the departure from his normal MO difficult in this book. One of the trademarks of Snape is that the more angry he gets, the softer his voice gets and he actually capslocks in this book. It's out of the ordinary.

This is true. I wonder if it's because Snape really does feel that the situation in the Shack is out of his control, whereas normally he's well able to stay in command of any given situation. He completely clicked, didn't he. It was really personal for him.

In the shack, we might have been seeing Snape's pain about revealing the prophecy transferred to Sirius, who he thought was the betrayer. In essence, Snape was angry with Sirius for letting Voldemort kill Lily, when it was really Snape's fault that Voldemort ever sought out Lily at all.

Yes, I'm sure this is a very important factor. So ... Snape's behaviour in the Shack actually confirms Dumbledore's story about deep remorse?

One thing, though. If Snape calms down considerably because he realised Sirius wasn't the betrayer, how did he manage having Wormtail, the real betrayer, living in his house all summer? Snape treated Wormtail with the same controlled contempt he has for most of the other characters. Perhaps it's because it was far more important to keep up the pretence in Wormtail's case than in Sirius's, what with him being a real DE and spying for the Dark Lord?

I think that it has to be the importance of maintaining his cover. He had something to gain at this point--more information about Voldemort or the DEs that he could turn over to Dumbledore.

Snape was very keen to prevent Sirius giving his side of the story in the Shack. Was there something he didn't want to come out - like the fact that Sirius was innocent?
That was actually my first thought and I didn't like it a lot. It doesn't paint Snape in a very nice light and, as you know, I try to avoid that. ;)
It seems as though there was something that Snape was trying to keep hidden. I wonder if whatever it was has to do with why he switched sides and how Sirius would play into that.


This is true. I wonder if it's because Snape really does feel that the situation in the Shack is out of his control, whereas normally he's well able to stay in command of any given situation. He completely clicked, didn't he. It was really personal for him.

Do you think so? Despite the fact that he actually had very little control over the situation, it seemed like he had it pretty well wrapped up by the time Sirius agreed to come quietly.

One thing, though. If Snape calms down considerably because he realised Sirius wasn't the betrayer, how did he manage having Wormtail, the real betrayer, living in his house all summer? Snape treated Wormtail with the same controlled contempt he has for most of the other characters. Perhaps it's because it was far more important to keep up the pretence in Wormtail's case than in Sirius's, what with him being a real DE and spying for the Dark Lord?

Admittedly, Snape's role as undercover agent was more important than a grudge, but I have a hard time believing, with the depth of his ire in PoA, that Dumbledore's exhortation and the importance of his mission could soothe him. Of course, maybe he just had a long talk with himself about fools who wear their hearts. ;) Come to think of it, he managed to get over Harry's Pensieve dive fairly well, considering.

Come to think of it, he managed to get over Harry's Pensieve dive fairly well, considering.
Give or take the odd bit of childish behaviour, such as pointedly ignoring Harry in class and deliberately smashing his potion sample ...

Since Snape's reaction to Harry's Pensieve dive was the other time he was really beside himself with anger, I'd guess that the same unresolved issues from his schooldays are the heart of the problem.

Give or take the odd bit of childish behaviour, such as pointedly ignoring Harry in class and deliberately smashing his potion sample ...

Since Snape's reaction to Harry's Pensieve dive was the other time he was really beside himself with anger, I'd guess that the same unresolved issues from his schooldays are the heart of the problem.

There was also the bit at the end of HBP, ix-nay with the oward-cay. Do these three times have anything in common?

I think that what these instances all have in common is Harry finding a weakness in Snape.

1) Shrieking shack and later in PoA: Snape may have been worried that Sirius and/or Lupin were going to tell Harry how they humiliated Snape at school. This might be one of the reasons that he didn't want Sirius to keep talking.
2) SWM: this is more obvious, Snape is upset that Harry saw him in such a humiliating situation.
3) coward: Snape does not want to be seen as weak.

This could have something to do with the unfinished end of SWM as well.

There's something that's been bothering me about Snape throughout my time in fandom and that's the scene in the Shrieking Shack. It's the only time, besides Harry's Pensieve dive, where we see Snape really lose control. Even at the end of HBP, we don't see Snape losing it completely as he does at the end of PoA.
It niggles at me, because I feel there's something about the dynamics there that we just don't know. In SWM, the assumption is made that Snape is over-the-top angry about his privacy being violated. What, then, is the motivating factor in the Shrieking Shack for his near-deranged anger? Careful reading of the scene reveals that he heard a great deal of what was said by Remus and Sirius while he was under the Invisibility Cloak, yet he acts as though it's unimportant, as though he didn't hear.
The argument has been made that his unrequited ire with Sirius could be to blame, but that just doesn't seem to fit, as he managed Sirius in OotP with sneering and sarcasm, but not lethal anger.
Is it the remembrance of the prank, freshened in his memory after his trip through the tunnel at the base of the Whomping Willow? Something completely different?
I'm not finding anything convincing.

I always thought Snape got to the door of S. Shack when the door opened (and Harry checked the stairs) but in between then and revealing himself, and I could be wrong as it's a while since I read PoA, but I don't think Snape ever heard them talk about Pettigrew as a rat, or in fact seeing him transformed.

I think, like anyone else in his shoes, Snape sees the "murderer" and "traitor" in Sirius, and Lupin helped him. It doesn't help that Harry, like James, is "wrong" about Sirius and too proud to admit it. The memory of the prank just adds fuel to the fire, even if was all just Sirius' idea and Lupin and James didn't have anything to do with that plan. (and like HBP or OOTP, the last straw is James's son calling him names. The ingrate/ignoramus!)

I always wondered one thing: if I remember right, Snape says thank you to Harry and says it's his invisibility cloak. How would he know?

For me, the one disturbing moment for Snape being on his own (and my own "Tower scene is prearranged between DD and Snape" theory) is at the end of HBP, when Draco tells him Snape made a U. Vow with Narcissa and DD doesn't seem to know about it ("that's what he would say to you"). Why would Snape hide this? Did he really think that somehow the third condition of the Vow would be avoided and that it wouldn't come to him having to kill DD? Surely he knows a 16 year old is not up to this...
on the other hand though, Dumbledore could have easily used the "Draco" debating and Snape asserting the situation time to get his wand via non verbal spell and smack everyone down. (after all, he took down 4 or 5 aurors/Ministry people in OOTP)

Shack timeline:

Sirius drags Ron down the tunnel, Harry and Hermione follow.

Harry and Sirius talk and then fight.

Lupin enters and a reconciliation takes place.

Hermione screams that Lupin is a werewolf.

Sirius and Lupin explain that Scabbers is Pettigrew.

Snape enters, concealed under the cloak.

Lupin recounts how the Shack was built for him, and that his friends spent years learning how to become Animagi in order to be with him.

Lupin mentions the Prank which could have killed Snape.

Snape reveals himself.

Snape effectively puts an end to all further revelations until he is knocked out by a triple Expelliarmus.

Sirius explains how he found out that Pettigrew was at Hogwarts.

We find out that Sirius wasn't the Secret-Keeper after all.

They force Pettigrew to transform, Harry spares his life, they all leave the Shack.

Lupin recounts how the Shack was built for him, and that his friends spent years learning how to become Animagi in order to be with him.
Lupin mentions the Prank which could have killed Snape.
Thanks Anabel.

So this is the part that Snape heard. Snape could have waited to see what happened next (which would have been more prudent, as he would have been able to gather more incriminating evidence), but he revealed himself at this point. I think that Snape was afraid that Sirius and Lupin were going to reveal something further about himself to the trio, so he panicked and revealed himself.

I think that Snape was afraid that Sirius and Lupin were going to reveal something further about himself to the trio, so he panicked and revealed himself.

I think that's very possible. What I'm wondering is what it could've been!

I always thought Snape got to the door of S. Shack when the door opened (and Harry checked the stairs) but in between then and revealing himself, and I could be wrong as it's a while since I read PoA, but I don't think Snape ever heard them talk about Pettigrew as a rat, or in fact seeing him transformed.

No, I realize he never saw Pettigrew, but given the conversation that he had just heard, it seems like prudence was the better part of valour. The fact that Snape didn't wait to see what the point of all this exposition was, but instead completely wigged out doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I just reread PoA, which is why it was fresh in my mind.

Snape says thank you to Harry and says it's his invisibility cloak. How would he know?
Interesting question. We can infer from canon that Snape knew some of what Dumbledore was up to in regard to Harry; perhaps this included the passing of the cloak?

For me, the one disturbing moment for Snape being on his own (and my own "Tower scene is prearranged between DD and Snape" theory) is at the end of HBP, when Draco tells him Snape made a U. Vow with Narcissa and DD doesn't seem to know about it ("that's what he would say to you"). Why would Snape hide this? Did he really think that somehow the third condition of the Vow would be avoided and that it wouldn't come to him having to kill DD? Surely he knows a 16 year old is not up to this...
on the other hand though, Dumbledore could have easily used the "Draco" debating and Snape asserting the situation time to get his wand via non verbal spell and smack everyone down. (after all, he took down 4 or 5 aurors/Ministry people in OOTP)

My reading of this scene is different than yours. Dumbledore doesn't disclaim knowledge of the Unbreakable Vow, he's trying to disavow Draco of the idea that Snape was working on Voldemort's side and, consequently, on Draco's side.

I don't know, yes, DD obviously has knowledge of the Unbreakable Vow (as he knows he is the target and Draco is after him) but it just seemed odd for him to say, "that's what Snape would have you believe" when it comes to Snape taking a Vow with Narcissa. If he knews Snape and Narcissa did this, why then is it such a stretch to believe Snape is working on both sides and in fact helping Draco (and not watching over him like DD says)?

I agree that Snape would be better off waiting in the Shack to hear everything but I guess old grudges got the better of him.

Snape's intense hatred of Sirius is one of the best arguments for "Snape the good". If he still hated James and Lily as much as it appeared in SWM than he would have honored Sirius for killing them. In the memory it wasn't Sirius who turned him upside down. The life debt Snape owed James may play into his protection of Harry a bit but clearly that isn't enough to bring Snape to constantly protect Harry. Compare his life debt to Pettigrew's. Peter hasn't done anything to protect Harry since the S Shack. Quite the opposite.

Snape's intense hatred of Sirius is one of the best arguments for "Snape the good". If he still hated James and Lily as much as it appeared in SWM than he would have honored Sirius for killing them. Snape never hated Lily. And there would be no reason to assume that hating James would translate into wishing him dead or honoring the person that he thought responsible.

Snape's intense hatred of Sirius is one of the best arguments for "Snape the good". If he still hated James and Lily as much as it appeared in SWM than he would have honored Sirius for killing them. In the memory it wasn't Sirius who turned him upside down. The life debt Snape owed James may play into his protection of Harry a bit but clearly that isn't enough to bring Snape to constantly protect Harry. Compare his life debt to Pettigrew's. Peter hasn't done anything to protect Harry since the S Shack. Quite the opposite.

I am also part of the Snape is good crowd, but I wouldn't use Snape's outburst at the end of PoA as proof for this. In fact if you want to, you could also read it as a sign that Snape is evil. Perhaps he knew in that scene that Wormtail was the Secret Keeper of the Potters and not Sirius. So he knew of Sirius' innocence and was disappointed that Sirius was kissed by the Dementors (he wanted to harm Sirius because he hated him). Also notice how he shouts at Harry. He is really angry at Harry. If Snape was upset that the murder of Harry's parents was saved by Harry, why would he be so loathing of Harry in this way? He would have said something like: Potter, you idiot boy, what have you done? You rescued the traitor of your parents.

I am also part of the Snape is good crowd, but I wouldn't use Snape's outburst at the end of PoA as proof for this. In fact if you want to, you could also read it as a sign that Snape is evil. Perhaps he knew in that scene that Wormtail was the Secret Keeper of the Potters and not Sirius. So he knew of Sirius' innocence and was disappointed that Sirius was kissed by the Dementors (he wanted to harm Sirius because he hated him). Also notice how he shouts at Harry. He is really angry at Harry. If Snape was upset that the murder of Harry's parents was saved by Harry, why would he be so loathing of Harry in this way? He would have said something like: Potter, you idiot boy, what have you done? You rescued the traitor of your parents.

You're right. Back to Snape the Obscure.

Snape never hated Lily. And there would be no reason to assume that hating James would translate into wishing him dead or honoring the person that he thought responsible.

Yes, his "Mudblood" comment was unkind but I doubt he actually felt any real animosity toward Lily. As for James, the fact that Snape continued to save Harry's life (in spite of being personally horrid to him) would seem to indicate that he's the sort who can intensely dislike for someone without wishing them real harm. (Nice sig and avatar, BTW.) :)

Yes, his "Mudblood" comment was unkind but I doubt he actually felt any real animosity toward Lily. As for James, the fact that Snape continued to save Harry's life (in spite of being personally horrid to him) would seem to indicate that he's the sort who can intensely dislike for someone without wishing them real harm. (Nice sig and avatar, BTW.) :)

Well, I agree that Snape may have not really meant any real animosity towards Lily when he called her a mudblood, more likely that he was trying to salvage some pride.

I do however disagree that Snape was saving Harry because it was the right thing to do, Dumbledore tells us otherwise and that was right at the beginning.

It's because of Snape's life debt to James, that is Dumbledore's explaination of Snape trying so hard to save Harry's life.

"Yes..." said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt.... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace...."

Harry tried to understand this but it made his head pound, so he stopped.

Latisha, I do agree the life debt probably had a great deal to do with his motives for saving Harry -- I'm sure the debt to James was a major factor, though I am still uncertain as to how it works. But Snape does draw the line at killing him or letting him be killed -- for whatever reasons.

I've always wondered about Quirrell's statement that Snape and James loathed each other but Snape never wanted Harry dead. How did Quirrelll know this rather personal detail about Snape and did he know why Snape didn't want Harry dead?

Latisha, I do agree the life debt probably had a great deal to do with his motives for saving Harry -- I'm sure the debt to James was a major factor, though I am still uncertain as to how it works. But Snape does draw the line at killing him or letting him be killed -- for whatever reasons.

Actually, Dumbledore's reason was spot on, consider as well, that Dumbledore is the ONLY person, other than Snape himself, that knows the true reason why Snape has agreed to go against Voldemort.

Dumbledore is also an insightful person and therefore I trust his judgment completely.

Also we may not know the specifics of a life debt, BUT we do know that it forms an unbreakable bond between two wizards. I assume, like the SK charm, it lasts even after death.

So there are I guess you can say two reasons, Harry is "the One" and so since this is the side that Snape has decided on, Harry can't die or else there goes the chance to vanquish the dark lord.

I've always wondered about Quirrell's statement that Snape and James loathed each other but Snape never wanted Harry dead. How did Quirrelll know this rather personal detail about Snape and did he know why Snape didn't want Harry dead?

We know that Snape loathes James, he has mentioned so many times, Dumbledore also backs this up. Not to mention that Snape's transfers his personal hatred of James onto Harry.

Don't forget Hermione saw Snape "muttering his counter-curse". You also have Snape's In-Your-Face incounters with Quirrell. Consider that if it was Dumbledore, I doubt that LV would have had any chance of succeeding.

Take note as well that Voldemort is a great legilimens. Snape has told us that great legilimens are able to read people so to speak and are able to interprete feelings correctly.

Also consider that Voldemort would have known Snape before he possessed Quirrell and would have some person background on Snape.

It's a good point about Voldemort's Legilimency, but if he could read Snape that easily, Snape would be in big trouble by now.

Sorry, didn't explain it very well.

We all know Voldemort is an expert legilimens right? We also know that when they get to that level they are able to interprete feelings by observation.

Consider at the time, Voldemort was actually possessing Quirrell and Snape was responding to Quirrell, not as Voldemort, but as a mediocre wizard who was also his collegue.

At this time, Snape was showing his obvious loyalty to Dumbledore right? Well sort of, we definately know he didn't want Quirrell (remember he did not know Voldemort was possessing Quirrell at the time), to have the stone.

At this time Voldemort correctly interpreted that Snape had left his (Lord Voldemort's) services forever (RE: GoF - Graveyard scene).

But after that scene we see that Snape has convinced Voldemort that he was not loyal to Dumbledore and was still in Voldemort's services. He had unwittingly foiled Voldemort in PS, believing that Quirrell wanted the stone for himself. He explains this all in Spinner's End to Bella.

Also consider that other from Quirrellmort, Snape has always seen Voldemort as Voldemort and protected himself as needed.

The only time he didn't was when Voldemort was possessing Quirrell and Snape was ignorant to that fact, therefore showing his true self (consider the meeting with Quirrell in the forbidden forest) and Voldemort was able to correctly interprete Snape's choices, (GoF - Graveyard scene).

Snape says thank you to Harry and says it's his invisibility cloak. How would he know?

Interesting question. We can infer from canon that Snape knew some of what Dumbledore was up to in regard to Harry; perhaps this included the passing of the cloak?

Is it possible during his student years at Hogwarts Snape found out that James possessed that cloak? We know he was in a habit of following the Marauders around and poking his nose into their business -- perhaps he was able to identify the cloak as James's former property and then draw the logical conclusion that it now belonged to Harry.

OMGzilla, I'm almost certain Snape found out about the cloak. And it'd make sense he found out when they were at Hogwarts too, he's clearly very bright and we're 100% sure he knows that Harry has the cloak in Harry's years at Hogwarts. In "The Egg and the Eye" scene in GoF, Snape says to Moody (well actually Barty JR) "Potter is here! Potter in his invisibility cloak!"





Now just for clarification, this is kind of off topic, but I have a question.

Do you think it possible that Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow?

The quote was something like

"He's not doing your orders, he promised my mother-"
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco..."

That gave me the impression that Dumbledore may have had no clue about the vow, and thought Snape's actions to be completely for his (DD's) sake and having nothing to do with a vow between Snape and Narcissa

Thoughts?

Now just for clarification, this is kind of off topic, but I have a question.

Do you think it possible that Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow?

The quote was something like

"He's not doing your orders, he promised my mother-"
"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco..."

That gave me the impression that Dumbledore may have had no clue about the vow, and thought Snape's actions to be completely for his (DD's) sake and having nothing to do with a vow between Snape and Narcissa

Thoughts?
It's so maddeningly ambiguous, isn't it? :lol: Is Dumbledore dismissing what Draco says without letting him finish because he knows the whole story? Or is he cutting him off because he believes whatever Snape told Draco was a necessary fabrication --a by-product of his spywork -- which Dumbledore trusts him to do loyally?

In that scene, Harry is a hidden, mute observer -- and he can't ask questions to clarify what he sees. Whenever he's in a situation like that, it puts me on the alert (I'm reminded of the scene where Snape threatened Quirrell in the forest and Harry believed it was Snape who was after the Stone) for an interpretation other than the one that seems obvious at first glance.

Also, in scenes where Harry is given incomplete or secondhand information (such as when Hagrid related the story of Snape and Dumbledore's heated argument in the woods) I also suspect there may be more significance than it first seems. Some people think that scene had to do with Snape and Dumbledore arguing about the Vow and I'm inclined to think it's a good possibility. So yes, I do think Dumbledore was aware of the Vow.

It's so maddeningly ambiguous, isn't it? :lol: Is Dumbledore dismissing what Draco says without letting him finish because he knows the whole story? Or is he cutting him off because he believes whatever Snape told Draco was a necessary fabrication --a by-product of his spywork -- which Dumbledore trusts him to do loyally?

In that scene, Harry is a hidden, mute observer -- and he can't ask questions to clarify what he sees. Whenever he's in a situation like that, it puts me on the alert (I'm reminded of the scene where Snape threatened Quirrell in the forest and Harry believed it was Snape who was after the Stone) for an interpretation other than the one that seems obvious at first glance.

Also, in scenes where Harry is given incomplete or secondhand information (such as when Hagrid related the story of Snape and Dumbledore's heated argument in the woods) I also suspect there may be more significance than it first seems. Some people think that scene had to do with Snape and Dumbledore arguing about the Vow and I'm inclined to think it's a good possibility. So yes, I do think Dumbledore was aware of the Vow.Good points. I tend to believe Snape told Dumbledore about the vow. Dumbledore didn´t seem to be astonished in the least when Draco raised his wand against him. And he seemed to come up with a plan (making it look for LV as if Draco was dead, protecting Draco and his mother...) very quickly for someone who should be shocked one of his students, even if it is a DE´s son, wants to kill him, and for someone who is weakened by a nasty potion.

On Snape knowing about he invisibility cloak: I think there are several explanations of how he knew. He could have known James owned one and deduced that it would have been inherited by Harry. Or Dumbledore told him about it.

Good points. I tend to believe Snape told Dumbledore about the vow. Dumbledore didn´t seem to be astonished in the least when Draco raised his wand against him. And he seemed to come up with a plan (making it look for LV as if Draco was dead, protecting Draco and his mother...) very quickly for someone who should be shocked one of his students, even if it is a DE´s son, wants to kill him, and for someone who is weakened by a nasty potion.
Yes, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore knew about the vow. If it was new to him, he would have been more interested in what Harry tried to tell him about it. As it was, he made it clear he already knew more than Harry and was not prepared to discuss it.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Dumbledore knew about the vow. If it was new to him, he would have been more interested in what Harry tried to tell him about it. As it was, he made it clear he already knew more than Harry and was not prepared to discuss it.
I agree anabel - Dumbledore knows so much because he listens to information from ALL sources. He would only brush Harry off if he already had the information.

I think that if Snape is working for Dumbledore, he would have wanted Dumbedore to have all pertinent information - that's his role as a spy.

Lately I've been wondering about something concerning Voldemort and the Marauders in relation to Snape, and I'm interested in what others might think. Just assuming it was Voldemort who sought Peter to spy for him (rather than Peter voluntarily going to Voldemort) how did he know Pettigrew was the best one to target? How could he know which Marauder was "the weakest link", since he wasn't of their generation and would not have known their group dynamics personally?

The most logical explanation to my mind is that he already had someone in his service who was of their generation, did know the group dynamics and could provide that information. A very likely candidate seems to be Snape. I can imagine he might think giving information about Peter's personality a relatively harmless thing. But we now know in light of OotP that Voldemort does take advantage of that sort of "harmless" information, as he did with Kreacher's details about Sirius and Harry's relationship. So I wonder if it's possible Snape could have been the one to spill the beans about the weakest Marauder's traits, not realizing it would lead to his recruitment.

(Of course, this doesn't hold up if you think it was Peter's idea to go to Voldemort.) ;)

OMGzilla, I agree with your idea. Even if Peter went to Voldemort willingly, Voldemort still may have consulted Snape about whether or not to take Peter in as a Death Eater. Although I do beleive that Snape saw the error of his ways, he was a Death Eater at one point, and I'm sure he gave information to Voldemort.

Regulus might have been handy in this aspect as well.

Regulus might have been handy in this aspect as well. I hadn't thought of him! :) Was he still alive, though, after Snape heard the prophecy and Harry was born? (That's when Voldemort's pursuit of the Potters -- and interest in their friends -- would have begun.) If not, then Snape would still be a prime suspect for giving him the information about Pettigrew.

I always wondered one thing: if I remember right, Snape says thank you to Harry and says it's his invisibility cloak. How would he know?


Here it is. PoA, US edition paperback, page 358:

"I found this at the base of the Whomping Willow," said Snape, throwing the cloak aside, careful to keep his wand pointing directly at Lupin's chest. "Very useful, Potter, I thank you ..."

Sounds to me like Snape wanted Harry to realize that Snape knew more than Harry thought he did.


For me, the one disturbing moment for Snape being on his own (and my own "Tower scene is prearranged between DD and Snape" theory) is at the end of HBP, when Draco tells him Snape made a U. Vow with Narcissa and DD doesn't seem to know about it ("that's what he would say to you"). Why would Snape hide this? Did he really think that somehow the third condition of the Vow would be avoided and that it wouldn't come to him having to kill DD? Surely he knows a 16 year old is not up to this...

The quote from HBP, US hardback edition, page 588:

"Why didn't you stop me then?" Malfoy demanded.

"I tried, Draco. Professor Snape has been keeping watch over you on my orders -"

"He hasn't been doing your orders, he promised my mother -"

"Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but -"

"He's a double agent, you stupid old man. he isn't working for you, you just think he is!"

"We must agree to differ on that, Draco. I so happens that I trust Professor Snape -"

Sounds to me as though nothing there surprised Dumbledore.

It's true, Dumbledore doesn't sound suprised... BUT,

His lack of surprise could be conceivable even if he didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow actually being made-

Consider this possibility: When DD ordered Snape to keep watch over Draco, what if Snape lied (assuming he's able to shut down DD's Legilimency) to DD and said something like "When I question Draco, I'll tell him the reason I'm trying to find out what he's up to is because I promised his mother I would protect him. I'll pretend I made the unbreakable vow with his mother." therefore making himself seem to Draco that he's doing Narcissa rather than DD's orders to get on Draco's good side.

Now I'm sure this IS why Snape told Draco about it, but aside from that point, what if he equivocated this to Dumbledore, to make it sound as if he was lying to Draco about the vow? (And we all know Snape is the master of Equivocation.)

Thus, Dumbledore saying, "Of course that is what he would tell you Draco, but..."

I mean, if DD knew the vow was real, what would be the point of denying that to Draco right then?

I don't think this is very likely (and I sure hope it isn't), but I'm just trying to think of all feasible possibilities....

I don't think so, DogStar. It sounds to me that Dumbledore is explaining to Draco that everything Snape did, he did on Dumbledore's orders, not Voldemort's. This is because Dumbledore wants Draco to understand that Voldemort is not all-powerful, and in fact does not even realize that one of his most important "servants" is actually working for Dumbledore.

By the way, the books make a point about how the Potters and the Longbottoms had each thwarted Voldemort three times. Harry of course has done it quite a few times himself. But what about Snape? If you think about it, Snape has thwarted Voldemort three times as well, at least three:

[] Snape alerted Dumbledore to Voldemort's plan to kill baby Harry Potter;

[] In PS/SS, Snape opposed Quirrel, and so deliberately or inadvertently thwarted Voldemort;

[] In GoF, Snape is one of the trio who rescues Harry from the fake Moody, aka Barty Crouch Jr., thereby thwarting Voldemort yet again.

Interesting, n'cest pas?

DD had to put up the foolish charade to the bitter end, he knew that the Unbreakabl Vow was real and everything but pretended like he didn't belief it. Even to Draco it seemed he didn't to really want to discuss Snape's betrayal.

I don't think so, DogStar. It sounds to me that Dumbledore is explaining to Draco that everything Snape did, he did on Dumbledore's orders, not Voldemort's. This is because Dumbledore wants Draco to understand that Voldemort is not all-powerful, and in fact does not even realize that one of his most important "servants" is actually working for Dumbledore.

By the way, the books make a point about how the Potters and the Longbottoms had each thwarted Voldemort three times. Harry of course has done it quite a few times himself. But what about Snape? If you think about it, Snape has thwarted Voldemort three times as well, at least three:

[] Snape alerted Dumbledore to Voldemort's plan to kill baby Harry Potter;

[] In PS/SS, Snape opposed Quirrel, and so deliberately or inadvertently thwarted Voldemort;

[] In GoF, Snape is one of the trio who rescues Harry from the fake Moody, aka Barty Crouch Jr., thereby thwarting Voldemort yet again.

Interesting, n'cest pas?

Ah... if you consider how Harry is said to have thwarted Voldemort, I don't think any of what you have listed actually compares.


Harry survives Voldemort's AK curse for the first time.

Harry, deliberately, directly and intentionally stopped Voldemort from obtaining the stone in PS.

Deliberately, directly and intentionally stopped Tom Riddle from gaining a body

Survived Voldemort's attempt to kill him again in GoF

Harry destroys the prophecy and Voldemort can no longer get his slimy hands on it.


I don't think that CoS actually counts because it was Tom Riddle as opposed to Lord Voldemort as Harry knew him at GH and PS.:shrug:

In all the above cases, Harry goes toe to toe with Voldemort and faces him and wins.

Snape alerted Dumbledore to Voldemort's plan to kill baby Harry Potter;

This did not thwart Voldemort, the AK curse that rebounded off Harry is what thwarted Voldemort.

[] In PS/SS, Snape opposed Quirrel, and so deliberately or inadvertently thwarted Voldemort;

No, because Quirrell didn't even know how to get past Fluffy, so really if we are going to look at it that way, Hagrid thwarted Quirrellmort for most of that year until Quirrellmort was able to past Hagrid's protection of the stone. In the end though, it was once again Harry that truly stopped Voldemort from acquiring the stone.

[] In GoF, Snape is one of the trio who rescues Harry from the fake Moody, aka Barty Crouch Jr., thereby thwarting Voldemort yet again.

Again, I don't really see this as thwarting Voldemort, as one it was actually Dumbledore that blew Crouch Jr away, Snape I believe was just there, much like McGonagall.

Either way, Voldemort's plan was already thwarted by Harry, as Harry was supposed to die by Voldemort's hand and no one was supposed to know about Voldemort's return.

Ah... if you consider how Harry is said to have thwarted Voldemort, I don't think any of what you have listed actually compares.

Maybe I should have said something more like 'rebelled', then. My point is that Severus was not acting very much like a Death Eater in those events.

I don't think that CoS actually counts because it was Tom Riddle as opposed to Lord Voldemort as Harry knew him at GH and PS.

Interesting, here is not the place for it, but I have a theory that the prophecy (the older one) tells Harry how to beat LV, psrtly because one line only makes sense if it refers not to Harry and Voldemort, but Voldemort and Riddle. Also, in OOtP, Dumbledor refers to Harry having beaten Voldemort four times, but if you count the CoS encounter Harry has won five times, implying that the CoS fight was not really against Voldemort.


By the way, I found another interesting quote. GoF, US paperback, page 712:

Dumbledore made sure that the door was closed, and that Madam Pomfrey's footsteps had died away, before he spoke again.

"And now," he said, "it is time for two of our number to recognize each other for what they are."

Those two were Sirius Black and Severus Snape, interestingly both were accused of being foul murderers and loyal to Voldemort.

JKR does not do coincidences, I think.

Maybe I should have said something more like 'rebelled', then. My point is that Severus was not acting very much like a Death Eater in those events.

In that case, I totally agree :D

Interesting, here is not the place for it, but I have a theory that the prophecy (the older one) tells Harry how to beat LV, psrtly because one line only makes sense if it refers not to Harry and Voldemort, but Voldemort and Riddle. Also, in OOtP, Dumbledor refers to Harry having beaten Voldemort four times, but if you count the CoS encounter Harry has won five times, implying that the CoS fight was not really against Voldemort.

I agree, though the way I see it, is that Voldemort or at that time Vapormort was/is the original or the true essense of who we know as Voldemort, which is why he is the last piece to be destroyed. Tom Riddle in CoS was still just a horcrux a tiny piece of Voldemort's soul, so not really what would be classified as Voldemort, the one that has been trying to kill Harry since he was 1 years old. :shrug:

By the way, I found another interesting quote. GoF, US paperback, page 712:



Those two were Sirius Black and Severus Snape, interestingly both were accused of being foul murderers and loyal to Voldemort.

JKR does not do coincidences, I think.

Sorry, my bad. I agree Snape is good, I wasn't actually disputing that fact or that point, only that Snape never "defied" Voldemort, he has always been "shifty" in going about his work for the Order, which is why it's still really a hot debate on which "master" he truly serves. :D

My favourite mirror, similar to the one you have provided is Harry force feeding Dumbledore in the cave with Snape AKing Dumbledore. :D

In that case, I totally agree :D



I agree, though the way I see it, is that Voldemort or at that time Vapormort was/is the original or the true essense of who we know as Voldemort, which is why he is the last piece to be destroyed. Tom Riddle in CoS was still just a horcrux a tiny piece of Voldemort's soul, so not really what would be classified as Voldemort, the one that has been trying to kill Harry since he was 1 years old. :shrug:



Sorry, my bad. I agree Snape is good, I wasn't actually disputing that fact or that point, only that Snape never "defied" Voldemort, he has always been "shifty" in going about his work for the Order, which is why it's still really a hot debate on which "master" he truly serves. :D

My favourite mirror, similar to the one you have provided is Harry force feeding Dumbledore in the cave with Snape AKing Dumbledore. :D

That's my favorite one for me too, Latisha!! Both of those incidents were sad and rather thought-provoking...

btw, I like your sig Latisha. Although in my case, my "amazing woman" stands next to me, never behind.

That's my favorite one for me too, Latisha!! Both of those incidents were sad and rather thought-provoking...

Same here, it's what finally convinced me that Snape is indeed on Dumbledore's side, though I would have prefered that I hadn't found out, DH would have been so much better if I didn't know that little gem, yeah, I would have hit the roof for the first few minutes, then I would have marvelled and cried at JK's brilliance. :D

btw, I like your sig Latisha. Although in my case, my "amazing woman" stands next to me, never behind.

:lol: I know, but I'm taking this from Harry Potter's story line. Ginny will be there supporting him from the background or else she might steal his thunder ;) After all he's been through I have no problem with that :D

Same here, it's what finally convinced me that Snape is indeed on Dumbledore's side, though I would have prefered that I hadn't found out, DH would have been so much better if I didn't know that little gem, yeah, I would have hit the roof for the first few minutes, then I would have marvelled and cried at JK's brilliance. :D



:lol: I know, but I'm taking this from Harry Potter's story line. Ginny will be there supporting him from the background or else she might steal his thunder ;) After all he's been through I have no problem with that :D

Same with me as well, why would she have something like this occur if it wasn't meant to show us something important... ;).

[] Snape alerted Dumbledore to Voldemort's plan to kill baby Harry Potter;

[] In PS/SS, Snape opposed Quirrel, and so deliberately or inadvertently thwarted Voldemort;

[] In GoF, Snape is one of the trio who rescues Harry from the fake Moody, aka Barty Crouch Jr., thereby thwarting Voldemort yet again.

Interesting, n'cest pas?

Daelin these are definitely excellent points.
It's just that if his Snape's motivation was to gain DD's trust so he could keep spying on him for Voldemort, that would logically explain why Snape did all those "seemingly good" things...

I don't actually believe that, but I think but it's pretty hard to not consider it as a logical option, dont you think?

Daelin these are definitely excellent points. It's just that if his Snape's motivation was to gain DD's trust so he could keep spying on him for Voldemort, that would logically explain why Snape did all those "seemingly good" things... I don't actually believe that, but I think but it's pretty hard to not consider it as a logical option, dont you think? That's why Snape is such an intersting character - so much of what he does can be interpreted in two or more ways.

Just to comment on one of the incidents that Daelin brought up: I always thought that Snape's image in the foe glass was very telling. I know that we don't know very much about how it works, so Snape's image could just be telling us that he's an immediate danger to crouch. But it could also mean that Snape is a true enemy of crouch, and by association, Volemort as well.

Those two were Sirius Black and Severus Snape, interestingly both were accused of being foul murderers and loyal to Voldemort.

JKR does not do coincidences, I think.

I see it as an example of being polar opposites:

Snape was accused of being a good guy and loyal to Dumbledore.

Black was accused being a bad guy and loyal to Lord Voldemort.

I've just had a thought. When Voldy summons his DE via the Dark Mark, they instantly know where they should apparate, don't they? Then why didn't Snape just tell Dumbly the location of the cemetery from where Voldy was issuing his summon? He definitely felt the call of the Dark Mark. They could have had Aurors popping up all over the place while Voldy was still monologuing...

Ummm, the Auror's don't listen too Dumbledore, they listen too Fudge. He didn't believe them, remember?

What about some of the more powerful wizards present who also trust Dumbledore? What I mean to say is that Snape probably knew where the meeting was being held. Yet he kept his mouth shut. I know Snape would have blown his cover big time but nearly lost Harry with their inaction, though they didn't know he was in such a great danger, I agree. Still Snape knew Voldy had returned the second the latter had pressed Wormtail's Dark Mark, and Dumbledore came to know about Voldy's return only when Harry got back to Hogwarts.

Well, he told that the dark Mark was burning red right in front of Dumbledore to Fudge so I dare say he didn't keep it silent. But i'm guessing that Dumbledore though Snape would have been more usefull as a spy then part of a squad barging into a ring full of Death Eaters. Even Dumbledore wouldn't have survived that.

I've just had a thought. When Voldy summons his DE via the Dark Mark, they instantly know where they should apparate, don't they? Then why didn't Snape just tell Dumbly the location of the cemetery from where Voldy was issuing his summon? He definitely felt the call of the Dark Mark. They could have had Aurors popping up all over the place while Voldy was still monologuing...

We don't really know if it works that way, do we?

I mean, the Dark Mark commands the Death eaters to come yes, but perhaps the location is revealed only when you obey it. I'm thinking it might summon in a way similar to a Portkey; you know where you're going in a 'general way', but not a specific way.

Besides, remember in HBP the Death Eaters who invade Hogwarts are able to put up a barrier that you can only pass if you have a Dark Mark, so the same defense could be in place when Voldemort made his grand reappearance.

Voldemort seems to the me the sort to lock any and all doors to unwanted intruders.

I'm thinking it might summon in a way similar to a Portkey; you know where you're going in a 'general way', but not a specific way.
I'm sure this is right - though with a portkey you don't even need to have a vague idea. The Trophy in GoF took Harry and Cedric and they didn't have a clue where they were.

By the way, the books make a point about how the Potters and the Longbottoms had each thwarted Voldemort three times. Harry of course has done it quite a few times himself. But what about Snape? If you think about it, Snape has thwarted Voldemort three times as well, at least three:

[] Snape alerted Dumbledore to Voldemort's plan to kill baby Harry Potter;

[] In PS/SS, Snape opposed Quirrel, and so deliberately or inadvertently thwarted Voldemort;

[] In GoF, Snape is one of the trio who rescues Harry from the fake Moody, aka Barty Crouch Jr., thereby thwarting Voldemort yet again.

Interesting, n'cest pas?

Very interesting. ;) You could also add to that list his actions at the end of OotP (checking on Sirius after Harry's cryptic message, searching for him in the forest, alerting the Order about his suspicions as to where Harry could have gone.)

This is what actually seals it for me. If he was truly serving Voldemort he could have taken the easy way out and ignored Harry's code. He could have played dumb, pretending not to understand, and no one could really blame him if Harry survived to tell about it. No Order would have come to Harry's aid and the kids would have been overwhelmed and possibly killed by the DEs.

I also think you are probably right about how the Dark Mark works. It would be a shrewd security measure to keep the DEs ignorant about the locations of their meeting spots, in case any of them got into a position where they might be tempted to squeal.

I've always assumed that the dark mark when it was "active" was portkey to Voldemort ~ that you'd never any idea where you were going but you knew that he would be there.

But yes, you could say that Snape has "thwarted" Voldemort a number of times if you assume that he's one of the good guys :tu: it does put things in an interesting light.

I've always assumed that the dark mark when it was "active" was portkey to Voldemort ~ that you'd never any idea where you were going but you knew that he would be there.
I love that idea!This is what actually seals it for me. If he was truly serving Voldemort he could have taken the easy way out and ignored Harry's code. He could have played dumb, pretending not to understand, and no one could really blame him if Harry survived to tell about it. No Order would have come to Harry's aid and the kids would have been overwhelmed and possibly killed by the DEs.
It was hours and hours before help came, though, and a Patronus messenger is very fast. It was daylight when Harry gave Snape the cryptic message, yet the Order arrived at the Ministry not long before dawn the next day!

It was hours and hours before help came, though, and a Patronus messenger is very fast. It was daylight when Harry gave Snape the cryptic message, yet the Order arrived at the Ministry not long before dawn the next day!

Hmmm. That's an interesting point. I don't have a good sense of how quickly a Patronus can travel. How fast do you imagine it goes? I suppose it can be assumed that he used one, even though Dumbledore only mentioned a "reliable method" without explaining what that was. But even if he didn't use a Patronus, I'm sure that the Order must have had other quick methods of communication at their disposal he could have used.

So what I think you're saying is, he deliberately dragged his feet? Ooh, I've never come up with anything to explain away that "good" behavior of alerting the Order, so I would love to hear more of your ideas about it. Why do you think he would delay contacting them rather than just ignoring Harry's message entirely? He would have to have a motive, but what could that be? :hmm:

Maintaining his position as appearing loyal to each side. If he does what he should (alerting the Order), but makes sure he does it in such a way that it does no particular good (the DE would have had ample time to get in, take the Prophecy and get out if the sextet had not fought so well), he can credibly convince each side that he acted in their interest, while all the while acting in his own.

Maintaining his position as appearing loyal to each side. If he does what he should (alerting the Order), but makes sure he does it in such a way that it does no particular good (the DE would have had ample time to get in, take the Prophecy and get out if the sextet had not fought so well), he can credibly convince each side that he acted in their interest, while all the while acting in his own.

Yes - if everything had gone as planned, ie 6 schoolchildren outnumbered 2 to 1 by adult Death Eaters had not managed to escape and successfully hold them off for quite some time, probably up to an hour, then the Order would have arrived only in time to pick up the pieces.

Thank you, Hinoema and anabel. Those are good explanations. :tu: Yes, I can see that if the Order had appeared right away, Voldemort's suspicion would have fallen on Snape as the whistleblower, since he was in regular contact with Harry and was best placed to follow his movements. With a delay, it would be easier to come up with alternative explanations as to how the Order found out.

It would seem a bit of a trick to calculate, though (how long to wait before sending help), if Snape wanted any particular side to come out on top. But perhaps he didn't really care about the outcome, only that his cover was preserved on both sides.

On the other hand, if he wanted the DEs to come out on top, then he really did miscalculate the kids' skills. That might explain why he treated Harry so badly at the beginning of Book 6! :lol:

Why would Snape be suspected? Who would have known to tell Voldemort that it was Snape who told?

I'd like to give an alternative explanation:
We know that the order communicates through patronuses, but I don't think that the communication is instantaneous. When tonks sent her patronus to Hagrid (which was picked up by Snape), it would have travelled quickly, as the message did not have far to go. But a message patronus travelling between Hogwarts and Grimmauld place would have taken a lot longer.

Also, Snape may have had to find a way to send the patronus without Umbridge or her spies noticing - this may have taken time.

We know that the order communicates through patronuses, but I don't think that the communication is instantaneous. When tonks sent her patronus to Hagrid (which was picked up by Snape), it would have travelled quickly, as the message did not have far to go. But a message patronus travelling between Hogwarts and Grimmauld place would have taken a lot longer.
I think Tonk's Patronus travelled very quickly, but Snape came on foot, hence the slight delay. Also, in GoF when Dumbledore used a Patronus to summon Hagrid, Hagrid was on the spot almost immediately. Obviously it would take longer for a message to reach London, but it has to be quicker than flying there by Thestral!Yes, I can see that if the Order had appeared right away, Voldemort's suspicion would have fallen on Snape as the whistleblower, since he was in regular contact with Harry and was best placed to follow his movements. With a delay, it would be easier to come up with alternative explanations as to how the Order found out.
Another good point! The canon for Snape is always so ambiguous!But perhaps he didn't really care about the outcome, only that his cover was preserved on both sides.
That is definitely an option, IMO.

Let's not forget that we enjoy the condition of 'Limited Omniscience'. That is, we see everything with the clarity granted by the author.

Snape is going around doing whatever sorts of things he does in his free time, and he gets called to Umbridge's office. One thing Severus Snape has in common with every other teacher and student at Hogwarts, is that he despises Umbridge, so I do not expect he hangs around waiting for her to coe up with some new demand, especially as I believe he actually had a stock of Veritaserum; he simply wasn't going to give any to Umbridge, for a number of reasons (which doesn't mean he has to be Good by the way, he could just want to spite Umbridge, and since he refused to use Veritaserum on Harry in GoF despite threatening to do so, I think drugging kids is below his level) and he had no intention of having a vial found on him. We know from GoF that he sometimes carried one around with him.

So, page 830 of OOtP tells us through Dumbledore (valid source, IMIO) that Snape attempted to contact Sirius at once. The significance of this is that once he was convinced Sirius was all right, Snape saw no reason to suspect trouble beyond a bit of well-earned detention for Harry. But later, when Harry did not show up (I'm thinking a couple hours, at least), Snape had to figure out what had happened. Imagine Severus Snape trying to think like a teenager, and what sort of ideas he would come up with, and there's another couple hours gone.

We also know that Snape contacted the Order's Headquarters and had words with Sirius regarding Sirius remaining behind. We should have no illusions about the spirit of that 'discussion', especially if they were alone.

All in all, the stated timeline is not really a problem, and the issue is not the speed of a Patronus which matters, but how long it took Snape to realize where Harry was going, and why.

Here it is. PoA, US edition paperback, page 358:



Sounds to me like Snape wanted Harry to realize that Snape knew more than Harry thought he did.




The quote from HBP, US hardback edition, page 588:



Sounds to me as though nothing there surprised Dumbledore.

Well, we know Snape knew Marauders but how did he know this was James's (now Harry's) cloak? Did he see James use it before?

I don't know, Dumbledore seems very dismissive about Snape being a double agent. We know Snape did make a promise - Unbreakable Vow, even - with Mrs Malfoy yet Dumbledore claims "that is what he'd tell you".

I think his actions in OOTP prove he's out to himself: a bad Snape could have kept quiet and tell no one about Harry's cripted message. He had to wait long enough not to raise suspicion on anyone's side.

Snape can be neither good nor bad nor out for himself. He could simply be a red herring in the books. A misdirection by JKR. A story thread that seems important but leads no where. Like the magic of the card trick - make a big show while the real trick is hidden somewhere else. Snape is a big show. There are more threads about him than anyone else. What if the real show is with the truly most obscure character? Someone like Trevor the toad, for instance.

Yes, I can see that if the Order had appeared right away, Voldemort's suspicion would have fallen on Snape as the whistleblower, since he was in regular contact with Harry and was best placed to follow his movements. With a delay, it would be easier to come up with alternative explanations as to how the Order found out. I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but Snape probably did not think that Harry would have any way to get to the ministry. Even if Snape did think of thestrals, he probably did not think that the kids would be resourceful enough to think of them as well. Snape probably thought he had time.

What does disturb me about this is that if Snape did not contact the order at once, why did Dumbledore think that he had? But if Snape did contact the order at once, I'm sure that Sirius for one, would not have waited around for Snape to say "okay, it's been enough time that they won't suspect me anymore"

Edit: nice to see you here SIP :). Personally, I think that Snape is the most complex character in the books after Harry. That's one of the reasons that i'm in the "obscure" thread. There are too many hints going in too many directions for me to make a blanket descision about him pre-DH.

Just a reminder that the one thread per member rule applies to everyone :)

What does disturb me about this is that if Snape did not contact the order at once, why did Dumbledore think that he had? But if Snape did contact the order at once, I'm sure that Sirius for one, would not have waited around for Snape to say "okay, it's been enough time that they won't suspect me anymore"

For that I had heard one good logical reasoning. It goes like this, Snape when warned by Harry about Padfoot, goes and checks on Sirius i.e. contact him using the Patronus, then when he is sure that Sirius is safe he just tells him that Harry has had a vision and that he was with Umbridge right now (seeing that it was the last place he had seen Harry) so Sirius has no reason whatsoever to rush to the DoM. He waits for more. Then Snape goes back and finds that Harry has escaped and is currently in the Forbidden Forest, he goes to search and all this takes enough time, when finally Snape is sure that Harry has indeed gone to the DoM, he again contacts Sirius only to find that other Order members are there, and he asks them to go to Harry's aid, and they comply, he asks Sirius to stay behind but he didn't...and the rest of the story is known....so that is why Snape took so long. ;)

I wonder now, though, why Snape would have chosen to wait for Harry to come back, rather than follow him and Hermione and Umbridge into the forest immediately after contacting Sirius. The forest at that time was especially dangerous, and Umbridge was obviously not at all equipped to handle protecting herself or the kids. And the fact that Harry's mind had just been manipulated so severely should have been all the more reason to stick close to him, since there was no telling what Voldemort would persuade him to do.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but Snape probably did not think that Harry would have any way to get to the ministry. I don't know ... since Snape had witnessed Harry Accio his broom the previous year for the Triwizard event, I think he would have realized Harry could have done something similar to get out of the forest (not necessarily with his own broom, but with another mode of transport. I think the flying car stilll resides there, doesn't it?)

Edit: nice to see you here SIP . Sorry for my ignorance, but can you tell me what the abbreviation "SIP" means? I know "BTW", "IMHO", "IIRC", the one in my username and quite a few others, but I'm pulling my brain to pieces trying to figure this one out! :lol: Thanks. :)

I wonder now, though, why Snape would have chosen to wait for Harry to come back, rather than follow him and Hermione and Umbridge into the forest immediately after contacting Sirius.

He thought that they would return back to castle, he never thought that they would grab a thestral each and fly to the MoM. Moreover I think he eventually did go to search for them in the forest, no wonder he took so long. :lol:

I don't know ... since Snape had witnessed Harry Accio his broom the previous year for the Triwizard event, I think he would have realized Harry could have done something similar to get out of the forest (not necessarily with his own broom, but with another mode of transport. I think the flying car stilll resides there, doesn't it?)


He knew he (Harry) couldn't do that seeing that the broom was securely fastened and guarded by trolls. ;)

Sorry for my ignorance, but can you tell me what the abbreviation "SIP" means?

She was referring to SilverInkPot. (the user who posted before her.):lol:

I also think that Snape tends to underestimate Harry and his friends resourcefulness. He might not have thought that they could think creatively enough to figure out a way to get to the ministry.

What is the timeline in OOTP?

- Harry tells Snape Padfoot is "where they keep it hidden" (if I remember right from our translation)
- Snape goes to look for Sirius and tells him to wait
- Snape contacts the Order (or did he look in the forrest first?)

He thought that they would return back to castle, he never thought that they would grab a thestral each and fly to the MoM. Moreover I think he eventually did go to search for them in the forest, no wonder he took so long. Yes, he did eventually go, but I guess what I'm getting at is, considering what he knew about the forest (the centaurs' being up in arms made it especially dangerous) about Umbridge (she was incompetent at defense) and Harry (Voldemort was now capable of feeding him visions that could cause him to do extemely dangerous things) it seems like a poor decision to not trail them after he ascertained Sirius was safe -that is, presuming he's good. (If he's not, then it's not such a bad decision.)

He knew he (Harry) couldn't do that seeing that the broom was securely fastened and guarded by trolls.
Oh, I do acknowledge that Harry would't have been able to use his own broom; :tu: I just used that as an example of a previous display of resourcefulness Snape would have known about.

She was referring to SilverInkPot. (the user who posted before her.)
Oh, thanks! It all makes sense now! :lol:

I also think that Snape tends to underestimate Harry and his friends resourcefulness. He might not have thought that they could think creatively enough to figure out a way to get to the ministry.
He puts them down a lot, it's true. But after many years of watching Harry get into and out of impossible scrapes, I would think he must have some idea that the kid has a knack for both diving headfirst into tough situations and surviving them. The question of underestimating Harry's abilities aside, maybe -if we're presumiing he's on the side of good- it's also a question of overestimating Harry's ability to recognize Voldemort's deception and restrain himself from helping a loved one he believed was in need.

Sorry for my ignorance, but can you tell me what the abbreviation "SIP" means? I know "BTW", "IMHO", "IIRC", the one in my username and quite a few others, but I'm pulling my brain to pieces trying to figure this one out! :lol: Thanks. :)
:D um...what does IIRC mean?

As for the thread:
I think the end of OotP was a very touchy situation for Snape (and IMO also touchy for JKR to write). I think the timeline is really sketchy, and I'm surprised that Bella did not bring it up at Spinner End. Sound the alarm too early and risk the DE's calling you out, sound it too late and risk Dumbledore and the Order's wrath. I believe that JKR purposely kept our knowledge of Snape's actions (and the backlash of those actions) limited because of this.
____________________________
I actually find the title of this thread pretty interesting, though I totally agree that Snape is "working for the good guys but with a nasty personality" I think that obscurity is the thing that Snape fears the most.

From our very first introduction to Snape we see his preoccupation with fame/recognition/celebrity/status:

"Mr. Potter, our new celebrity"
"Clearly fame isn't everything"
"I can teach you to bottle fame, brew glory",
He calls them all dunderheads (with the understanding that he is not)
We hear that he desires a more affluent position in the school (DADA teacher).
He thwarts Quirrell because (as he later says) he was unworthy of the stone.
In school, he calls himself the half-blood Prince--jokingly making himself royalty.
He studies very hard, and clearly wants to be recognized for his great intellect.
He creates spells and shares them with his peers, again trying to gain recognition (but as far as we know his name is forgotten even while his own spells are used against him)
He becomes a close friend of rich, purebloods, and goes so far as to join the ranks of the death eaters in order to be accepted and appreciated.
In COS, even though he knows Lockhart is a weak, idiot he consents to assist him with the dueling club (why not Flitwick or McGonagall who have more patience to "suffer fools"?), and he proceeds to humiliate Lockhart and boost himself before his students.
In POA, he consistently brews a very difficult potion for his rival (current and past) at Dumbledore's request, but he is given recognition by all of the Order for his efforts.
He does everything in his power to catch Sirius, losing all reason, and he is thrilled to be receiving the 'Order of Merlin' (Why would a Death Eater, set on taking over the government with his master/ or even a spy happily serving Dumbledore, care about receiving recognition from Cornelius Fudge and the Ministry?)
He panders to the purebloods in his house, gaining the respect of them and their families.
In HBP, he uses Wormtail like a servant, entertaining his guests like an aristocrat even in his filthy old house.
Over and over we see him concerned about his own reputation and standing, wanting to be recognized for his power as a wizard, for his intellect, and for his courage.

Snape is a true Slytherin, but I don't believe that it is dominating power that he craves, but rather standing and glory.

Voldemort can offer him infamy and servanthood, but glory, honor for his deeds, reputation in the wizarding world, and recognition for his genius can really only be found by loyalty to Dumbledore's side. I know this could probably be taken both ways, but I just don't see how Voldemort could offer (and Snape could believe he'd receive) the fame and honor he desires through the DE's side. :hmm:

Yes, he did eventually go, but I guess what I'm getting at is, considering what he knew about the forest (the centaurs' being up in arms made it especially dangerous) about Umbridge (she was incompetent at defense) and Harry (Voldemort was now capable of feeding him visions that could cause him to do extemely dangerous things) it seems like a poor decision to not trail them after he ascertained Sirius was safe -that is, presuming he's good. (If he's not, then it's not such a bad decision.)


Well, since when has Snape been worried about Harry's well being? :eyebrows: :lol:

Moreover he eventually did go in there. ;)

I also think that Snape tends to underestimate Harry and his friends resourcefulness. He might not have thought that they could think creatively enough to figure out a way to get to the ministry.

That shows how much he judges other, taking himself as a standard. :rotfl:

um...what does IIRC mean?

I think it means If I remember correctly. :lol: Well abbreviations are generally not appreciated but if you want to view some here, this (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=3132637&postcount=6) post will help you. :)

and I'm surprised that Bella did not bring it up at Spinner End.

Why should Bella have brought that up? :hmm:

As for the thread:
I think the end of OotP was a very touchy situation for Snape (and IMO also touchy for JKR to write). I think the timeline is really sketchy, and I'm surprised that Bella did not bring it up at Spinner End. Sound the alarm too early and risk the DE's calling you out, sound it too late and risk Dumbledore and the Order's wrath. I believe that JKR purposely kept our knowledge of Snape's actions (and the backlash of those actions) limited because of this.
____________________________
I actually find the title of this thread pretty interesting, though I totally agree that Snape is "working for the good guys but with a nasty personality" I think that obscurity is the thing that Snape fears the most.

From our very first introduction to Snape we see his preoccupation with fame/recognition/celebrity/status:

"Mr. Potter, our new celebrity"
"Clearly fame isn't everything"
"I can teach you to bottle fame, brew glory",
He calls them all dunderheads (with the understanding that he is not)
We hear that he desires a more affluent position in the school (DADA teacher).
He thwarts Quirrell because (as he later says) he was unworthy of the stone.
In school, he calls himself the half-blood Prince--jokingly making himself royalty.
He studies very hard, and clearly wants to be recognized for his great intellect.
He creates spells and shares them with his peers, again trying to gain recognition (but as far as we know his name is forgotten even while his own spells are used against him)
He becomes a close friend of rich, purebloods, and goes so far as to join the ranks of the death eaters in order to be accepted and appreciated.
In COS, even though he knows Lockhart is a weak, idiot he consents to assist him with the dueling club (why not Flitwick or McGonagall who have more patience to "suffer fools"?), and he proceeds to humiliate Lockhart and boost himself before his students.
In POA, he consistently brews a very difficult potion for his rival (current and past) at Dumbledore's request, but he is given recognition by all of the Order for his efforts.
He does everything in his power to catch Sirius, losing all reason, and he is thrilled to be receiving the 'Order of Merlin' (Why would a Death Eater, set on taking over the government with his master/ or even a spy happily serving Dumbledore, care about receiving recognition from Cornelius Fudge and the Ministry?)
He panders to the purebloods in his house, gaining the respect of them and their families.
In HBP, he uses Wormtail like a servant, entertaining his guests like an aristocrat even in his filthy old house.
Over and over we see him concerned about his own reputation and standing, wanting to be recognized for his power as a wizard, for his intellect, and for his courage.

Snape is a true Slytherin, but I don't believe that it is dominating power that he craves, but rather standing and glory.

Voldemort can offer him infamy and servanthood, but glory, honor for his deeds, reputation in the wizarding world, and recognition for his genius can really only be found by loyalty to Dumbledore's side. I know this could probably be taken both ways, but I just don't see how Voldemort could offer (and Snape could believe he'd receive) the fame and honor he desires through the DE's side. :hmm:


Yeah and what way he could gain fame and honor than being next to the chosen one who destroyed Voldemort!...My guess is that at some point Snape will try and tell Harry that he is good and he killed Dumbledore on his orders so he could remain useful as a spy and so he can help him find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes!...But i have a feeling that Harry will not be easy to convince:relax:...Snape is a VERY complex character...Their could be a big amount of evidence saying that he's actually good but then their could be something that comes up that changes your mind and convinces you that he is pure evil!!!!!....Personaly I think that Snape is good but then again:grumble: i dunno!...If their was a way to get Snape in a room with Dr.Phil :hmm: :rotfl:

My guess is that at some point Snape will try and tell Harry that he is good and he killed Dumbledore on his orders so he could remain useful as a spy and so he can help him find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes!

The question is not that will Snape approach harry or not, the question is will Harry believe him? I mean it will be very hard for Severus Snape to prove his innocence to Harry and I am of the opinion that he won't even try. What I am saying is that Snape will remain the obscure character that he is. He will not be clarified, and stay as it...i.e a person who helped Albus Dumbledore due to personal reasons but was never completely devoted to the cause. ;)

The question is not that will Snape approach harry or not, the question is will Harry believe him? I mean it will be very hard for Severus Snape to prove his innocence to Harry and I am of the opinion that he won't even try. What I am saying is that Snape will remain the obscure character that he is. He will not be clarified, and stay as is...i.e a person who helped Albus Dumbledore due to personal reasons but was never completely devoted to the cause. ;)

That's an excellent summation of Snape.

:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kala_way
um...what does IIRC mean?


I think it means If I remember correctly. Well abbreviations are generally not appreciated but if you want to view some here, this post will help you. You've got it -- and thanks for posting that link. :)

The question is not that will Snape approach harry or not, the question is will Harry believe him? I mean it will be very hard for Severus Snape to prove his innocence to Harry and I am of the opinion that he won't even try. What I am saying is that Snape will remain the obscure character that he is. He will not be clarified, and stay as it...i.e a person who helped Albus Dumbledore due to personal reasons but was never completely devoted to the cause.
Yes, it would take an awful lot to convince Harry to forgive Snape. Even before his death, Dumbledore's endorsement of Snape did not carry much weight with Harry, and I think it's safe to say that Harry trusted Dumbledore above most other people. Any attempt on Snape's part to prove his innocence would likely be met with disbelief by Harry.

You may be right in that Snape's motivations will not be clarified in the last book -I suppose it all depends on how important those motivations are to the overall story. But as he will certainly have contact with Voldemort while Harry is in opposition to both of them, I think there is a good chance the question his loyalities might come up again and we'll get more clarification on this matter. I imagine it probably wouldn't happen until the very end though, in the interest of keeping up the suspense! ;)

Yeah and what way he could gain fame and honor than being next to the chosen one who destroyed Voldemort!...My guess is that at some point Snape will try and tell Harry that he is good and he killed Dumbledore on his orders so he could remain useful as a spy and so he can help him find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes!...But i have a feeling that Harry will not be easy to convince:relax:...Snape is a VERY complex character...Their could be a big amount of evidence saying that he's actually good but then their could be something that comes up that changes your mind and convinces you that he is pure evil!!!!!....Personaly I think that Snape is good but then again:grumble: i dunno!...If their was a way to get Snape in a room with Dr.Phil :hmm: :rotfl:


Yeah I know, it should be interesting to see how he does that...

Yea, if there only was :relax: :lol: ...

Yeah and what way he could gain fame and honor than being next to the chosen one who destroyed Voldemort!...My guess is that at some point Snape will try and tell Harry that he is good and he killed Dumbledore on his orders so he could remain useful as a spy and so he can help him find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes!...But i have a feeling that Harry will not be easy to convince:relax:...Snape is a VERY complex character...Their could be a big amount of evidence saying that he's actually good but then their could be something that comes up that changes your mind and convinces you that he is pure evil!!!!!....Personaly I think that Snape is good but then again:grumble: i dunno!...If their was a way to get Snape in a room with Dr.Phil :hmm: :rotfl:
I dunno. I think Snape bought into the prophecy--he knows that Harry must defeat the Dark Lord. I agree that he'll try and convince Harry that he's good at their next meeting, but I have a feeling he has some very solid proof (incontrovertible hopefully :D). I doubt that Snape would have agreed to do it without a solid way to prove himself to the Order--Dumbledore wouldn't have allowed it either.
I waffle back and forth about his loyalties as well, I just think that if he's really evil then he's worse than Voldemort because of all he's done, and I believe that Voldemort is the head villain of the series.

:p I think Snape would hex Dr. Phil before he got a word out! "Excited about life" just doesn't fit Snape's persona does it? lol

I think it means If I remember correctly. :lol: Well abbreviations are generally not appreciated but if you want to view some here, this (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=3132637&postcount=6) post will help you. :)

Why should Bella have brought that up? :hmm:
Thanks for the link!

I think that Snape would have been questioned regarding how the Order found out about what was happening at the MoM. Malfoy and the other Slytherins were in the room when Harry gave his little 'hint' to Snape, and would likely have passed the info on. Bella would have been able to put 2 and 2 together, and realize that Snape was the most likely informant. Thus, it would only be the timing that saved him in the DE's eyes. All conjecture of course but...:D

You may be right in that Snape's motivations will not be clarified in the last book -I suppose it all depends on how important those motivations are to the overall story. But as he will certainly have contact with Voldemort while Harry is in opposition to both of them, I think there is a good chance the question his loyalities might come up again and we'll get more clarification on this matter. I imagine it probably wouldn't happen until the very end though, in the interest of keeping up the suspense!

You make a wonderful point there, I mean just because the fans want to know the ultimate status of an obscure character, a author like Jo wouldn't bring about a plot that clarifies the position of the character, but has nothing to add to the story or the actual plot line of the story. Either it has to be related with Lily, about whom we are going to know in DH or it has something to do with another character (maybe RAB) that is directly related to the plot which affects the scenario of the Horcruxes.

Snape has been the most interesting character seeing that he has always been true to my user name (mysterious)...:lol:

I think that Snape would have been questioned regarding how the Order found out about what was happening at the MoM. Malfoy and the other Slytherins were in the room when Harry gave his little 'hint' to Snape, and would likely have passed the info on. Bella would have been able to put 2 and 2 together, and realize that Snape was the most likely informant. Thus, it would only be the timing that saved him in the DE's eyes.

That is a good point, but I guess that Bella assumed that Harry had already sent forth for the order members and therefore she didn't put that up against Snape. ;)

I actually find the title of this thread pretty interesting, though I totally agree that Snape is "working for the good guys but with a nasty personality" I think that obscurity is the thing that Snape fears the most.
From our very first introduction to Snape we see his preoccupation with fame/recognition/celebrity/status: Ooh good point!


"Mr. Potter, our new celebrity"
"Clearly fame isn't everything"

From his first meeting with Harry he seems to think that he will be just like James (as Snape saw him) that is he will be a bigheaded bully and a showoff. (Please understand I do not think James was these things, but that is what Snape thought of James) It is also implied in SWM that James and Sirius did not have to work hard to achieve good results. I can imagine that this made the industrious Severus foam at the mouth! Snape seems to then project this on to Harry, who looks exactly like James.

"I can teach you to bottle fame, brew glory",
This always make me ask the question If Snape wants fame and glory so much then why hasn't he used his ability to bottle fame and brew glory in order to achieve his desired ends?

He calls them all dunderheads (with the understanding that he is not) :lol: Of course - everyone is a dunderhead except Snape :D (and Dumbledore)

We hear that he desires a more affluent position in the school (DADA teacher).
I'm not sure the DADA post is more affluent - more kudos perhaps.

He thwarts Quirrell because (as he later says) he was unworthy of the stone. I'm not convinced he was telling the truth on this occasion
In school, he calls himself the half-blood Prince--jokingly making himself royalty.
He studies very hard, and clearly wants to be recognized for his great intellect :tu:

He creates spells and shares them with his peers, again trying to gain recognition (but as far as we know his name is forgotten even while his own spells are used against him) :hmm: Hmmmmmm


He becomes a close friend of rich, purebloods, and goes so far as to join the ranks of the death eaters in order to be accepted and appreciated.
In COS, even though he knows Lockhart is a weak, idiot he consents to assist him with the dueling club (why not Flitwick or McGonagall who have more patience to "suffer fools"?), and he proceeds to humiliate Lockhart and boost himself before his students. :lol: Yes he does rather take it upon himself! I imagine him thinking "Dumbledore's letting that idiot run a dueling club?! well I'd better be there to make sure nobody gets killed" Very much like him taking it upon himself to referee the quiddoitch match in PS/SS

In POA, he consistently brews a very difficult potion for his rival (current and past) at Dumbledore's request, but he is given recognition by all of the Order for his efforts. I don't remember him getting credit for this - the only person who mentions it IIRC is Lupin himself.

He does everything in his power to catch Sirius, losing all reason, and he is thrilled to be receiving the 'Order of Merlin' (Why would a Death Eater, set on taking over the government with his master/ or even a spy happily serving Dumbledore, care about receiving recognition from Cornelius Fudge and the Ministry?) I'm still not convinced that Snape's real disappointment was about losing the Order of Merlin - Dumbledore says (with that characteristic chuckle) that Snape has suffered a severe disappointment - I believe this to be his failure to catch Sirius which I beleive to have been very very important to Snape - hence he lost all reason. As I say I think it was the actual failure to capture Sirius that caused the disappointment (but my reasons are for another thread :eyebrows: )
He panders to the purebloods in his house, gaining the respect of them and their families. This is one thing that does annoy me about him. (though we only really see him pandering to the Malfoys) I'm hoping this is part of his undercover death eater work!

In HBP, he uses Wormtail like a servant, entertaining his guests like an aristocrat even in his filthy old house. Again I think his hatred of Sirius has transfered onto the rat - I think being in Wormtails prescence is extremely distasteful to Severus!

Over and over we see him concerned about his own reputation and standing, wanting to be recognized for his power as a wizard, for his intellect, and for his courage.
:tu:

Snape is a true Slytherin, but I don't believe that it is dominating power that he craves, but rather standing and glory. I'm more inclined to think that Snape wants recognition for his abilities and credit for what he has done. Sadly as a spy he can have neither.

I really do hope that JKR gives us the low down on Snape in the last book. If not I can imagine the fanfics going on forever!

This always make me ask the question If Snape wants fame and glory so much then why hasn't he used his ability to bottle fame and brew glory in order to achieve his desired ends?
That's an interesting point! And we haven't seen them make any potion that can do these things, except maybe for Felix Felicis, but that Fuelpagan's thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=94210) (and I'm still not sure what I think about Snape and Felix)


I'm still not convinced that Snape's real disappointment was about losing the Order of Merlin - Dumbledore says (with that characteristic chuckle) that Snape has suffered a severe disappointment - I believe this to be his failure to catch Sirius which I beleive to have been very very important to Snape - hence he lost all reason. As I say I think it was the actual failure to capture Sirius that caused the disappointment (but my reasons are for another thread :eyebrows: )
Well, I think it was a mixture of both. He wanted to catch Sirius because he was an old rival on top of being a criminal of the highest degree. Once he found out that Sirius was truly innocent, the rivalry would still be there but righteous anger would have to melt--to be transfered to Wormtail as you say.


This is one thing that does annoy me about him. (though we only really see him pandering to the Malfoys) I'm hoping this is part of his undercover death eater work!
I'm sure it is, but he may be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone there.


:tu: I'm more inclined to think that Snape wants recognition for his abilities and credit for what he has done. Sadly as a spy he can have neither.

:agree:I think it's all in the same vein--I don't know how noble I see Snape so I guess it could be on a continuum from glory/honor to just praise/credit. It just seems to me that the latter would be too fleeting for his tastes.


I really do hope that JKR gives us the low down on Snape in the last book. If not I can imagine the fanfics going on forever!
She MUST! I'd go insane if she didn't. I think the fanfics I find the most hilarious are the ones that are like "Snape is really handsome he just uses glamours to appear ugly for his cover... oh and Snape is really nice too he's just an enormous jerk for his cover... ohh Snape secretly adores pink and has read all of Lockharts books, lets make him the next headmaster!..." :rotfl:

I think the fanfics I find the most hilarious are the ones that are like "Snape is really handsome he just uses glamours to appear ugly for his cover... oh and Snape is really nice too he's just an enormous jerk for his cover... ohh Snape secretly adores pink and has read all of Lockharts books, lets make him the next headmaster!..." :rotfl:

:rotfl: The thing that really makes me laugh is how I imagine Snape reacting to such fanfics "I am NOT a fluffy bunny underneath - I really am a bitter twisted old git and if you attempt to hug me I'll curse you off the face of the planet!" Sorry off topic. :whistle:

This always make me ask the question If Snape wants fame and glory so much then why hasn't he used his ability to bottle fame and brew glory in order to achieve his desired ends?

As we saw with Felix Felicitus, there are side effects and limits. I recall the old saying "Fame is Fleeting", and so it may well be so in Potion form as well.

I imagine him thinking "Dumbledore's letting that idiot run a dueling club?! well I'd better be there to make sure nobody gets killed" Very much like him taking it upon himself to referee the quiddoitch match in PS/SS

This also explains his rage in PoA. Snape knew that Lupin had not taken his potion, that it was the full moon, and that he would be risking his life against a werewolf - again - but he had to in order to save a bunch of kids who would not so much as say 'thank you' for his peril on their behalf. Harry, did you notice, never thanked Severus for saving him from Quirell in the Quidditch match?


This is one thing that does annoy me about him. (though we only really see him pandering to the Malfoys) I'm hoping this is part of his undercover death eater work!

We know that Severus became a Death Eater, and was close to Lucius Malfoy. That seems to be how he was recruited, I think.

When did Snape become a deatheater...why...and is he going to get caught being the double agent

When did Snape become a deatheater...why...and is he going to get caught being the double agent
:welcome:

Well I don't think we know when exactly Snape became a Death Eater originally, but it was probably soon after he left school. As of right now, everyone already thinks he's been revealed as a double agent and that he is really working for Voldemort.

-----------------
I've been wondering why Voldemort picked Snape in particular to spy on Dumbledore. It's possible that Snape suggested it himself, but if not, why would Voldemort pick someone so young and inexperienced - both at teaching and at spying?

This also explains his rage in PoA. Snape knew that Lupin had not taken his potion, that it was the full moon, and that he would be risking his life against a werewolf - again - but he had to in order to save a bunch of kids who would not so much as say 'thank you' for his peril on their behalf. Harry, did you notice, never thanked Severus for saving him from Quirell in the Quidditch match?
That's true. Snape is more of a jerk than he needs to be and is the adult, but I've always felt there was more that Harry could have done to 'soften' their relationship if he had taken the initiative--if he had followed Dumbledore and Hermione's advice. :shrug:


I've been wondering why Voldemort picked Snape in particular to spy on Dumbledore. It's possible that Snape suggested it himself, but if not, why would Voldemort pick someone so young and inexperienced - both at teaching and at spying?
hmm...I'd never thought of that. I guess the only explanation I can think of would be that Snape had a "confession", a reason for turning that no one else had. From what we know, Snape did tell Voldemort about pouring out his soul to Dumbledore regarding Lily and James, he just claimed that it was fake to Voldemort (from what he said to Bella at Spinner's End). Can you see Lucius teaching Potions? ;)

That's true. Snape is more of a jerk than he needs to be and is the adult, but I've always felt there was more that Harry could have done to 'soften' their relationship if he had taken the initiative--if he had followed Dumbledore and Hermione's advice. :shrug:I really don´t think Harry should be blamed here. He was an abused and neglected 11 years old orphan who was thrown into a completely strange world and from Day 1 onwards, this person, who was supposed to teach him Potions, picked on him, taunted him, mocked and humiliated him, deliberately penalised him. And his friends on top of that as well. Harry already had to deal with strong antipathy from his so-called relatives, the Dursleys, his whole life. I see no reason why Harry should have caught Snape some slack. Snape is the adult after all.

Therefore, I am not so sure Snape decided to possibly endanger himself and face a werewolf (had everything gone after his plan, they would have been back at the castle before the moon rose), to safe the trio. I feel he was driven by the desire to do Sirius and Lupin in. That was completely personal and would not necessarily have compromised his position as being loyal to Dumbledore.

hmm...I'd never thought of that. I guess the only explanation I can think of would be that Snape had a "confession", a reason for turning that no one else had. From what we know, Snape did tell Voldemort about pouring out his soul to Dumbledore regarding Lily and James, he just claimed that it was fake to Voldemort (from what he said to Bella at Spinner's End). Can you see Lucius teaching Potions? ;)Well, remorse for what happened to Lily and James is the most popular explanation as to why Snape turned to the good side. But I feel there has to be something else. Remorse over Lily and James is not strong enough a reason to explain Dumbledore´s seemingly utmost trust in Snape, IMO.

There has to be something additional. Maybe those are two different things: The reason why Snape turned his back on LV (possibly LV´s decision to hunt down Lily and James) and the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape.

I see no reason why Harry should have caught Snape some slack. Snape is the adult after all. :tu: I agree.

Well, remorse for what happened to Lily and James is the most popular explanation as to why Snape turned to the good side. But I feel there has to be something else. Remorse over Lily and James is not strong enough a reason to explain Dumbledore´s seemingly utmost trust in Snape, IMO.

There has to be something additional. Maybe those are two different things: The reason why Snape turned his back on LV (possibly LV´s decision to hunt down Lily and James) and the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape.
I would say that Snape's remorse for what happened to Lily and James is the Canon reason for his turn to the good side. That is certainly what Dumbledore beleived so if Snape DID really turn to the good side (rather than just pretending to) then I think we should accept Dumbledore's explanation. Of course as usual Dumbledore is economical in the information he gives out. What we really need to know is WHY Snape felt such intense remorse (assuming that it was genuine) This is really the crux of the matter and will tell us a huge amount about Snape and his motivations - and ultimately clear up his obscurity!
Reasons that have been suggested include:

An emotional attachment to Lily
A magical "life debt" to James because James saved his life
A feeling of being indebted to James because James saved his life
Snape's mother being threatened/killed by Voldemort
A currently unknown sibling being threatened/killed by Voldemort

I can't think of any others - I'm sure others will add to my list :D

I would say that Snape's remorse for what happened to Lily and James is the Canon reason for his turn to the good side. That is certainly what Dumbledore beleived so if Snape DID really turn to the good side (rather than just pretending to) then I think we should accept Dumbledore's explanation. Of course as usual Dumbledore is economical in the information he gives out. What we really need to know is WHY Snape felt such intense remorse (assuming that it was genuine) This is really the crux of the matter and will tell us a huge amount about Snape and his motivations - and ultimately clear up his obscurity!Maybe his obscurity will never be completely resolved. :elaugh: (Half of the fandom would probably go nutters. Heck, the whole fandom would)


Reasons that have been suggested include:

An emotional attachment to LilyYes, although this is speculation with no canon to back up. In the only instance we actually see them interact onpage, Snape calls Lily a mudblood and she taunts him. But I will leave it at that, since the mods don´t like us to discuss this special issue. :whistle:
A magical "life debt" to James because James saved his life
A feeling of being indebted to James because James saved his lifeYes, I think that is what we can call closest to canon. Dumbledore even makes a remark to Harry about it in PS.

Snape's mother being threatened/killed by Voldemort
A currently unknown sibling being threatened/killed by VoldemortTo be honest, I´ve never heard of these suggestions. Plus, we don´t have any canon about this as well.

That leaves Snape´s remorse (if genuine) and his possibly feeling indepted to James as the only canon reasons we can put our finger on. I think they are a part of why Snape returned to the good side (assumed he did), maybe they are even the only reason. But I still think there is something additional. What is this 'iron-clad' reason Dumbledore had to trust Snape? Ah, maybe it is just my greediness for some big shocking revelation in DH. I don´t know. :lol:

I really don´t think Harry should be blamed here. He was an abused and neglected 11 years old orphan who was thrown into a completely strange world and from Day 1 onwards, this person, who was supposed to teach him Potions, picked on him, taunted him, mocked and humiliated him, deliberately penalised him. And his friends on top of that as well. Harry already had to deal with strong antipathy from his so-called relatives, the Dursleys, his whole life. I see no reason why Harry should have caught Snape some slack. Snape is the adult after all.
I absolutely do Not blame Harry, and I agree that Snape is the adult, as I said! I certainly wouldn't have had any love for Snape if I was in Harry's place. I was simply saying if Harry had handled the situation differently, their relationship might not be as it currently is. I believe at least 95% of the blame for the state of their relationship is on Snape's shoulders (with some on Dumbledore, Sirius, and Remus as well)! Harry had perfectly good reasons to behave as he has toward Snape, but he still made the choice to behave as he did! Does that make sense? Please don't think I'm trying to excuse Snape's treatment of Harry!


Well, remorse for what happened to Lily and James is the most popular explanation as to why Snape turned to the good side. But I feel there has to be something else. Remorse over Lily and James is not strong enough a reason to explain Dumbledore´s seemingly utmost trust in Snape, IMO.

There has to be something additional. Maybe those are two different things: The reason why Snape turned his back on LV (possibly LV´s decision to hunt down Lily and James) and the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape.
:scared: That was my point. It was his reason to Voldemort as to why DD would trust him! I personally would be extremely disappointed in Dumbledore if he accepted Snape with only that reason!

Snape has got to be a double agent. So Harry is right to suspect him deeply. And I feel safe saying this because Rowling makes Harry say true/right things all the time.

To be honest, I´ve never heard of these suggestions. Plus, we don´t have any canon about this as well. Well some people are quite keen on them - (what with Irma Pince being an anagram of "I'm a Prince")
Yes, I think that is what we can call closest to canon. Dumbledore even makes a remark to Harry about it in PS. Yes - but I'm not convinced that it is a magical life debt - the way Dumbledore talks to Harry of it implies (to me anyway) that it was in Snape's mind - that SNape couldn't feel comfortable owing his life to James. But that's just my opinion :D
What is this 'iron-clad' reason Dumbledore had to trust Snape? Ah, maybe it is just my greediness for some big shocking revelation in DH. I don´t know. Hee hee - I think there are bound to be plenty of shocking revelations and I'm sure one at least will be about Snape. Personally I think that the reason for Snape's remorse will be revealed (it HAS to be!) for although it may not add to the plot as regards Harry defeating VOldemort, it fills in the back story and will alter Harry's opinion of Snape. This is Harry's story, but it's not just about him defeating Voldemort, it's about him growing up and becoming a rounded human being despite his past and the burden that he has to carry. I think his attitude to Snape will play an important in his emotional development, so although SNape isn't necessarily important to the plot in terms of Harry defeating Voldemort, I think that indirectly SNape will effect Harry in terms of providing an important life lesson.
(Did that sound too desperate for information on Snape in the last book?)

I absolutely do Not blame Harry, and I agree that Snape is the adult, as I said! I certainly wouldn't have had any love for Snape if I was in Harry's place. I was simply saying if Harry had handled the situation differently, their relationship might not be as it currently is. I believe at least 95% of the blame for the state of their relationship is on Snape's shoulders (with some on Dumbledore, Sirius, and Remus as well)! Harry had perfectly good reasons to behave as he has toward Snape, but he still made the choice to behave as he did! Does that make sense? Please don't think I'm trying to excuse Snape's treatment of Harry!


:scared: That was my point. It was his reason to Voldemort as to why DD would trust him! I personally would be extremely disappointed in Dumbledore if he accepted Snape with only that reason!

So would I, that in itself would be a pretty flimsy reason to trust him... there just has to be more to that!!

Yes - but I'm not convinced that it is a magical life debt - the way Dumbledore talks to Harry of it implies (to me anyway) that it was in Snape's mind - that SNape couldn't feel comfortable owing his life to James. But that's just my opinion :DYes, but you´re not the only one. I am not concinved either if it is a traditional magical life-debt. It could be more that Snape feels indepted to James and he surely would hate that feeling.
Hee hee - I think there are bound to be plenty of shocking revelations and I'm sure one at least will be about Snape. Personally I think that the reason for Snape's remorse will be revealed (it HAS to be!) for although it may not add to the plot as regards Harry defeating VOldemort, it fills in the back story and will alter Harry's opinion of Snape. This is Harry's story, but it's not just about him defeating Voldemort, it's about him growing up and becoming a rounded human being despite his past and the burden that he has to carry. I think his attitude to Snape will play an important in his emotional development, so although SNape isn't necessarily important to the plot in terms of Harry defeating Voldemort, I think that indirectly SNape will effect Harry in terms of providing an important life lesson.
(Did that sound too desperate for information on Snape in the last book?)Pretty desperate actually. :lol: Serving Harry´s character development would be the only reason we will learn about Snape´s back story.

Unless Harry has to cooperate with Snape sometime, maybe because Snape has information without which Harry can´t proceed. For that, Harry needs to trust Snape. Learning the reason of why Snape returned to the good side, learning the reason why Dumbledore trusted him, learning a bit about Snape´s true motivations, would be a requirement for Harry to trust Snape.

It could always be of course, that Snape´s motivations are kept in the dark till the end. Maybe he will always remain an obscure character to a certain extent.

Maybe he will always remain an obscure character to a certain extent.
I think probably he will. It would be more interesting than saying straight out what his motivations were. All along Snape has been a mysterious character. We see what he does but have no idea why he does it and where his true loyalties lie. Revealing everything would spoil the mystery! I expect that the issue of his final loyalty will be resolved, but that it will remain unclear exactly who he was serving along the way!

Personally, I think it will be almost impossible for Snape to come out of obscurity. Regarding any other character, murdering Dumbledore would have convinced us of his/her evil nature. And it should have convinced us about Snape - yet it hasn't. So what could JKR include in DH to convince us about Snape? I'm completely stumped.

So what could JKR include in DH to convince us about Snape? I'm completely stumped.

We'll be talking about him forever! He'll go down in history as one of the most controversial literary characters of all time!

We'll be talking about him forever! He'll go down in history as one of the most controversial literary characters of all time!A little touch of obscurity will always be there. I just hope we know at the end which side he was on. I personally could go with all three alternatives, good side, bad side, his own side, as long as we get an answer and don´t have to wonder til the end of the world.

If we learn his most important motivations, it would be great, but I doubt as well that we will learn everything.

What could JKR do to satisfyingly convince us? Write a book The Life (and Death?) of Severus Snape.

I keep wondering: Is it possible that even Severus Snape does not know where he stands?

I keep wondering: Is it possible that even Severus Snape does not know where he stands?

Maybe :p, with Snape you never know...

What if Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely because he required Snape to enter into the Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry? What if Snape had to enter into the UV w/Dumbledore before he would be allowed in the Order and at Hogwarts? Wouldn't it be like Dumbledore to require Snape to protect the very one he put in mortal danger with the Prophecy? Even though Snape obviously does not like Harry, he has time and time again protected/saved him. If Snape and Dumbledore entered into the U.V. who performed it? What if only a family member could enter into U.V.? Did Dumbledore perform the U.V. for Snape and Aunt Petunia? Did Snape send Aunt Petunia the Howler forcing her to let Harry stay at #4 Privet Dr where he was protected? Also, we know how JK loves her duality. How about Snape having to protect both Draco and Harry by way of the U.V.!!

What if Dumbledore required Snape to enter into the Unbreakable Vow with him to protect Harry? If so, who performed it? What if a family member had to enter into the U.V.? Did Dumbledore perform the U.V. for Snape and Aunt Petunia? Was it Snape that sent the Howler to Aunt Petunia warning her that she could not make Harry leave #4 Privet Dr where he is protected?

Hi tfox :wave: and welcome :welcome:

A few people have suggested that Snape had a UV to protect Harry - either with Dumbledore or LIly. I'm not keen on the idea because of the terminal nature of the UV should you fail - I can't see DUmbledore or Lily or any other "good" character asking someone to make UV. Although having said that a desperate mother might do anything - as Narcissa showed in HBP.

Thank you so much for responding and not knocking my theory, as you see i am a first time poster. The horrific nature of the U.V. is exactly why i think it could be the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely. And, desperate times call for desperate measures! Thanks for welcoming me!

The horrific nature of the U.V. is exactly why i think it could be the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely.

Exactly it is a horrific thing to do to someone and that is why I don't see Dumbledore doing it. Moreover that makes Snape even more obscure seeing that forcing him with the UV would just make things more murkier, as we wouldn't know if Snape worked on his own accord or due to the UV. :shrug:

It is actually only horrific if the person pledging the vow does not see it through. So if Snape does his level best to protect Harry, there would be no consequences to him. I have not seen (although it may have been said) that the UV is Dark. So Dumbledore would not be asking him to give up his life (Snape) if he just wanted to be able to "trust him so completely).