The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Obscure

I know it's just a personal preference but (besides for the fact that I think this is outside of Dumbledore's nature), I would rather that Snape have actually realized that he'd done a good number of bad things as a death eater and wanted to change, and that he was able to somehow prove this to Dumbledore. I like to see people changing for the better - it brings a better message to the audience.

by the way, :welcome: tfox! Hope you like it here!

Thank you so much for responding and not knocking my theory, as you see i am a first time poster. The horrific nature of the U.V. is exactly why i think it could be the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely. And, desperate times call for desperate measures! Thanks for welcoming me!I agree with you that Dumbledore trusts Snape because he took an unbreakable vow. My version has it that Dumbledore did not ask him to take it, or require him to take it, but that Snape wanted to do it to prove himself loyal to the good guys. The vow was to protect Harry, which is what he continues to do. For some reason, it seems to be an unpopular idea, but I think it makes perfect sense. :lol:

My version has it that Dumbledore did not ask him to take it, or require him to take it, but that Snape wanted to do it to prove himself loyal to the good guys. The vow was to protect Harry, which is what he continues to do. For some reason, it seems to be an unpopular idea, but I think it makes perfect sense.
I prefer you're version :D I could actually see Snape insisting on making a UV, but I still think Dumbledore would have told him it was quite unnecessary.

What if Dumbledore trusts Snape so completely because he required Snape to enter into the Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry? What if Snape had to enter into the UV w/Dumbledore before he would be allowed in the Order and at Hogwarts? Wouldn't it be like Dumbledore to require Snape to protect the very one he put in mortal danger with the Prophecy? Even though Snape obviously does not like Harry, he has time and time again protected/saved him. If Snape and Dumbledore entered into the U.V. who performed it? What if only a family member could enter into U.V.? Did Dumbledore perform the U.V. for Snape and Aunt Petunia? Did Snape send Aunt Petunia the Howler forcing her to let Harry stay at #4 Privet Dr where he was protected? Also, we know how JK loves her duality. How about Snape having to protect both Draco and Harry by way of the U.V.!!

What if Dumbledore required Snape to enter into the Unbreakable Vow with him to protect Harry? If so, who performed it? What if a family member had to enter into the U.V.? Did Dumbledore perform the U.V. for Snape and Aunt Petunia? Was it Snape that sent the Howler to Aunt Petunia warning her that she could not make Harry leave #4 Privet Dr where he is protected?That is a clever idea that has come up already, but I have to agree with the others who say that it wouldn´t be in Dumbledore´s nature to ask someone to commit an UV.

Although the UV is not openly declared as Dark Magic, I think it is in the darker grey zone of magic. Generally, the person who asks someone to commit such a vow accepts the death of this person. Even if this person is completely willing to fulfill what they have commited, there might always be circumstances in life that prevent them from doing it. It is too risky, IMO, and I don´t think any of the good guys would do that and that includes Lily. ;)

Furthermore, I personally don´t think an UV constitutes real utter trust. It is a mere technicality ensuring someone does what they are asked to. I doubt Narcissa or especially Bella considered the UV as an 'iron-clad' reason that Snape is loyal to LV.

Furthermore, I personally don´t think an UV constitutes real utter trust. It is a mere technicality ensuring someone does what they are asked to. I doubt Narcissa or especially Bella considered the UV as an 'iron-clad' reason that Snape is loyal to LV.Dumbledore has said that he trusts Snape completely. If it's because of an unbreakable vow, I don't think that that is possible, because Snape would constantly be looking for loopholes, or working against him in other ways. If Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, I think it's because Snape somehow offered proof that his perspective on life is somehow different.

I also think Dumbledore wouldn't have asked Snape to participate in an Unbreakable Vow - though it's a good idea. It seems like something Voldemort would ask of his minions and I think Dumbledore prefers to see those he works with as allies. I'm not so sure that it's dark magic in and of itself, though it can be used for nefarious purposes it's true. But there are other examples of 'binding' (for the want of a better description) magical vows such as the Secret Keeper Vow which was used with the intent of protecting against evil by requiring the 'bindee' to hide a secret within themselves - potentially very risky, especially if you're hiding the secret from Voldemort or Death Eaters.

There may be another reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much, perhaps some 'Dark' knowledge related to vanquishing Voldemort. There is a certain irony in James Potter's son being assisted in his task by his (James') arch-enemy - especially if James always hated the Dark Arts.

What about Snape using a Fidelius Charm and locking the real trust reason in Dumbledore?

I also think Dumbledore wouldn't have asked Snape to participate in an Unbreakable Vow - though it's a good idea. It seems like something Voldemort would ask of his minions and I think Dumbledore prefers to see those he works with as allies. I'm not so sure that it's dark magic in and of itself, though it can be used for nefarious purposes it's true. But there are other examples of 'binding' (for the want of a better description) magical vows such as the Secret Keeper Vow which was used with the intent of protecting against evil by requiring the 'bindee' to hide a secret within themselves - potentially very risky, especially if you're hiding the secret from Voldemort or Death Eaters.

There may be another reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much, perhaps some 'Dark' knowledge related to vanquishing Voldemort. There is a certain irony in James Potter's son being assisted in his task by his (James') arch-enemy - especially if James always hated the Dark Arts.

I never viewed an Unbreakable Vow as dark magic, but I can certainly tag it to wizards fluent in the Dark Arts as opposed to those who do not use them.

I agree that Dumbledore wouldn't use an Unbreakable Vow--if Dumbledore has trust in Snape, then he would also know that Snape would do whatever was required of him no matter the cost. This wizard war is trying enough without the major players going crazy to the point that they cannot do their jobs--Snape knows that as does Dumbledore.

While it would ensure that Snape would keep his promise to Dumbledore, I don't think an Unbreakable Vow was used. If Dumbledore trusted Snape, he wouldn't have to use one.

What about Snape using a Fidelius Charm and locking the real trust reason in Dumbledore?

I see that as a definite possibility. (I assume you're offering a possible answer as to why Dumbledore has never said why he trusts Snape, correct?) However, Dumbledore is a kind-hearted person who normally wouldn't divulge something that should remain with only a few, in this case two, parties. I don't think he would've told anyone anything that would equal revealing a secret.

What about Snape using a Fidelius Charm and locking the real trust reason in Dumbledore?
Oh, I LIKE that idea! That would protect Snape from Voldemort, and be a very good reason why Dumbledore never told anyone the real reason he trusts Snape. :tu:

I think since JKR thinks of Snape as a deeply horrible person and has mentioned that its horrible to think of someone that wants to be in love with Snape so i have to go with JKR on this and say that he could be evil after all but no matter how horrible he can behe still can be a hero and how about if Snape was indeed telling the truth in Spinners End?!...But some people just intend to cling on to hope that Snape is good because of Dumbledore...But if you pay close attention Dumbledore never actually mentions that he is good all he says to Harry is that Snape is TRUSTWORTHY!...So Snape could indeed be the horrible evil person that he seems to be...but he can also be trusted completely!....

I think Snape is on the good side, I'm just not sure he and Dumbledore always agree. Snape seems to genuinely believe that Sirius was prepared to kill him in the Werewolf Incident and I'm not sure Dumbledore agrees with him.

I think Snape is on the good side, I'm just not sure he and Dumbledore always agree. Snape seems to genuinely believe that Sirius was prepared to kill him in the Werewolf Incident and I'm not sure Dumbledore agrees with him.
Dumbledore seems very understanding of Snape's feelings on this point, but, as you say, he never agrees with him.

Dumbledore seems very understanding of Snape's feelings on this point, but, as you say, he never agrees with him.

I wonder how much of a source of frustration this has been to Snape and if it may have affected their relationship in some way?

Snape and Dumbledore also disagreed on the appointment of Lupin as a teacher. However one views the unfolding of that decision, it appeared to be a source of contention between the two.

Snape and Dumbledore also disagreed on the appointment of Lupin as a teacher. However one views the unfolding of that decision, it appeared to be a source of contention between the two.It probably does. I'm sure we will read more about Snape's relation to Dumbledore in Deathly Hallows and it will us tell even more about his character. What we already know actually gives something away: Snape couldn't agree with all actions Dumbledore made, but it seems he always followed him nonetheless and actually defended his decisions, even if he had showed a different opinion by himself before. In my opinion Snape is able to keep his feelings under control for a greater good and acts like this, but he still breaks out of it whenever possible. Assuming he worked for the Order all the time, he i.e. still bullyied Neville and Harry (actually all Gryffindors) a lot. So if it does not hurt the 'big duty' I think, he does not resist to follow his feelings, even if they include hate.

In my opinion Snape is able to keep his feelings under control for a greater good and acts like this, but he still breaks out of it whenever possible.

How does he manage to do that?

I guess the reason is because he must have faced an emotional set back in life, like being denied love (maybe Lily). Remus tried to do something similar, but Snape is stronger than Lupin and hence he managed to evade of emotions.

btw, does anyone else find it telling that Severus Snape was on friendly terms with Igor Karkaroff in GoF, even though Karkaroff tried to inplicate Snape with the Wizengamot as a Death Eater?

does anyone else find it telling that Severus Snape was on friendly terms with Igor Karkaroff in GoF, even though Karkaroff tried to inplicate Snape with the Wizengamot as a Death Eater?

Um...I think Snape was unaware of this accusation. ;)

Um...I think Snape was unaware of this accusation. ;)

I don't. I think it is a hint about his character. There is more to that relationship than the surface.

There is more to that relationship than the surface.


What kind of relationship are you suggesting? :huh:

There is more to that relationship than the surface.
:agree: Yes - I think they have some shared secrets from their death eater past. In GOF Karkaroff doesn't seeem as confident as Snape; SNape seems to be on top of things but Karkaroff seems to slowly unravel through the book. He's pretty much running to Snape for help and advice, which is odd given that he dropped Snape in it. Maybe there was more to that trial sceneof karkaroff's than revealing that Snape was a death eater?

It also shows his ability to keep his feelings in check - he must have been rather angry with Karkaroff for blabbing, but is able to be as civil to him as anyone else.

Well Snape is a master at whatever he does, he is exceptionally talented but boring. He is a wonderful professional and has great ability to think/work under pressure, that is what makes him the perfect Spy. :agree:

Severus Snape also strikes me as a master manipulator. He actually seems to cultivate the image of the 'obvious' man whose true motives and thoughts never come to the surface, but who always finds a way to be the last man standing.

It probably does. I'm sure we will read more about Snape's relation to Dumbledore in Deathly Hallows and it will us tell even more about his character. What we already know actually gives something away: Snape couldn't agree with all actions Dumbledore made, but it seems he always followed him nonetheless and actually defended his decisions, even if he had showed a different opinion by himself before. In my opinion Snape is able to keep his feelings under control for a greater good and acts like this, but he still breaks out of it whenever possible. Assuming he worked for the Order all the time, he i.e. still bullyied Neville and Harry (actually all Gryffindors) a lot. So if it does not hurt the 'big duty' I think, he does not resist to follow his feelings, even if they include hate.

To me, the 'big duty' means helping vanquishing Voldemort - I think this is what you mean too (but let me know if it isn't). As a former Death Eater and one of Voldemort's inner circle, Snape may have seen and been asked to do things that caused him to have a reality check and contributed to his switching sides and means he genuinely wants Voldemort gone.

I also think that Snape is able to keep his emotions under check - for the most part, though they seem to be close to the surface at times and can be translated into sneers and petty actions towards the students. But, he doesn't always manage to keep them in check in relation to the Marauders, though this may no longer be much of an issue with James and Sirius gone. I don't really find him cool, calm and collected, I see a lot of emotions bubbling beneath a studied public face.

I have been wondering, if Snape is good then why didn't he tell Dumbledore that Voldemort had summoned all the Death Eaters in GoF, and if he did tell Dumbledore then why didn't Dumbledore react accordingly? :hmm:

I believe he did tell Dumbledore they were summoned. he is pretty up front about the dark mark as he shows it to dumbledore and fudge (while harry listens in) on page 616 of the UK edition. he says that its been growing clearer and that he and Karkaroff had both felt the mark burn that night. Dumbledore then says to him "you know what i must ask you to do. if you are ready...if you are prepared..." i believe this means for snape to go straight to voldemort and make an excuse for why he didnt come early. i am sure snape told dumbledore as soon as it burnt but as he didnt go then he and dumbledore would not have known why voldemort called him.

I see that as a definite possibility. (I assume you're offering a possible answer as to why Dumbledore has never said why he trusts Snape, correct?) However, Dumbledore is a kind-hearted person who normally wouldn't divulge something that should remain with only a few, in this case two, parties. I don't think he would've told anyone anything that would equal revealing a secret.

Correct, that is what I meant. If that is true though, we may never get the real reason why he trusted him, as he's dead now. :no:

I believe he did tell Dumbledore they were summoned. he is pretty up front about the dark mark as he shows it to dumbledore and fudge (while harry listens in) on page 616 of the UK edition. he says that its been growing clearer and that he and Karkaroff had both felt the mark burn that night. Dumbledore then says to him "you know what i must ask you to do. if you are ready...if you are prepared..." i believe this means for snape to go straight to voldemort and make an excuse for why he didnt come early. i am sure snape told dumbledore as soon as it burnt but as he didnt go then he and dumbledore would not have known why voldemort called him.

If he did tell Dumbledore then why didn't Dumbledore react? :huh:

Edit- Have the Triumvirate Rules been changed? :hmm:

If he did tell Dumbledore then why didn't Dumbledore react? :huh: But Dumbledore did react. He said to Snape, as Coralie quoted, "you know what i must ask you to do. if you are ready...if you are prepared..." . I got the impression from this that Dumbledore and Snape have planned out actions to be taken (Snape going back to LV under the presumption of being still loyal to him) when LV returned. I guess Dumbledore always knew LV would find a way. Maybe he didn´t know exactly how, but I can imagine he knew LV´s return was soon. Probably because Snape told him about the Dark Mark getting stronger. The last bit is pure assumption of course. :cool:

Edit- Have the Triumvirate Rules been changed?
No, I don't believe they have. At any rate, the opening post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4060629&postcount=1) has not been edited.

But Dumbledore did react. He said to Snape, as Coralie quoted, "you know what i must ask you to do. if you are ready...if you are prepared..." . I got the impression from this that Dumbledore and Snape have planned out actions to be taken (Snape going back to LV under the presumption of being still loyal to him) when LV returned. I guess Dumbledore always knew LV would find a way. Maybe he didn´t know exactly how, but I can imagine he knew LV´s return was soon. Probably because Snape told him about the Dark Mark getting stronger. The last bit is pure assumption of course.


Of course he reacted but that was when Harry had got back. My point was that if he knew that they were being summoned then why didn't he send Snape then and there? What was the reason that he made Snape wait for so long? :huh:

Of course he reacted but that was when Harry had got back. My point was that if he knew that they were being summoned then why didn't he send Snape then and there? What was the reason that he made Snape wait for so long? :huh:

Two reasons, I think. One involves Harry and I will say no more about it for here, because it opens a can-o-worms. But the other reason is simple, if unexpected - Severus Snape wanted a private discussion with Voldemort. It was, actually, the only chance he had to stay alive.

Of course he reacted but that was when Harry had got back. My point was that if he knew that they were being summoned then why didn't he send Snape then and there? What was the reason that he made Snape wait for so long? :huh:
Oh, yes, I understand now. Well, I think we don´t know enough about how this DE summoning functioned. Was it that the DEs were informed prior to the graveyard events (probably by Wormtail) where they should go when they got some kind of message? And how would this message function? Has it something to do with the Dark Mark? I guess it has something to do with LV pressing his finger on Wormtail´s mark and such let the DEs know he is back. But did he 'traditionally' summon them? Did they know where to gather? Was the date and time set up prior to that? If that is the case, then we really have to ask ourselves why Snape didn´t say anything or, if he told DD, why DD didn´t do anything. Theories over theories could come out of that scenario. But the answer to these questions is crucial to be able to judge Snape´s behaviour in this incident, IMO.

I really don't think it's all that complicated. I doubt that they have to have pre-meeting coordination planning. And I doubt that they always go to the same locale. A lot of advance planning or using the same locale would be dangerous. Once Voldemort summons the DEs by pressing the Dark Mark, I'll bet they can apparate to wherever he is. I think the summons acts like a homing beacon.

Snape was late. Most likely that was because of Umbridge going into the forest with the kids. But Snape may have wanted to tell Dumbledore he had been summoned before he responded.

Snape was two hours late. Most likely that was because of Umbridge going into the forest with the kids. But Snape may have wanted to tell Dumbledore he had been summoned before he responded.
But what about in GoF? Why didn't Snape tell Dumbledore right away that the Death Eater's were being summoned?

I really don't think it's all that complicated. I doubt that they have to have pre-meeting coordination planning. And I doubt that they always go to the same locale. A lot of advance planning or using the same locale would be dangerous. Once Voldemort summons the DEs by pressing the Dark Mark, I'll bet they can apparate to wherever he is. I think the summons acts like a homing beacon.

Snape was two hours late. Most likely that was because of Umbridge going into the forest with the kids. But Snape may have wanted to tell Dumbledore he had been summoned before he responded.

Rell is right, the Dark Mark summons was in GoF. Umbridge was the next year, in OOtP. I agree with you that the summons worked - roughly - like a specific version of a Portkey, limited to the Death Eater but obedient to his/her decision.

We know from Snape's discussions with Karkaroff, that he was aware of the impending summons. We also know that Karkaroff was scared witless by this, which is why he ran. When Voldemort rose again, he mentioned both Karkaroff and Snape, Karkaroff for his cowardice and Snape as "one whom I believe has left me forever", and specifically announces Snape will be killed.

I'm curious about that, because that seems odd simply for not showing up at a meeting. I think that Voldemort must have sensed something in Snape, something which would doom Snape unless he got a chance to explain himself. That means Snape had to do what made no sense, to prompt Voldemort's curiosity. Risky, sure, but it played out well. I note that Snape had some sort of discussions with Dumbledore during the year. If he wanted to have Dumbledore's support, this was reasonable, but it's also reasonable for Snape to set up an alibi for his next meeting with Voldemort, to do better than come to him empty-handed.

So here's my take on that scene:
Harry and Cedric vanishes from the maze, and say 30 minutes later, Snape feels the dark mark burn. At this point, Snape is faced with a problem that he hasn't had in 13 years. Which master should he serve, and in what capacity? So he may have waited, and only made a firm descision later.

On the other hand, if Snape's first thought was to stick with Dumbledore, I'm sure he told Dumbledore straight away.

My only guess at this point is that Dumbledore didn't want Snape to have to explain why he vanished so suddenly in the middle of such a crisis (harry and cedric were missing).

Plus Snape would be able to tell Voldemort that he'd stayed to keep his spying position. If he had gone right away, Voldemort would have taken Snape out of that position, because Dumbledore would have known that Snape was "disloyal"

:scared: I hope that makes sense

That makes sense to me. :) I think you're right -- Snape could have convinced Voldemort that it would have looked fishy if he had left at a time when Dumbledore would have expected him to be on hand. By waiting, he could give Voldemort the plausible impression that he had snuck away without Dumbledore's knowledge at the earliest possible moment.

Just because Snape didn't obey the summons immediately, doesn't have to mean that he didn't tell Dumbledore. All he knew was that Voldemort was corporal again and was summoning the DEs - Snape couldn't know it had anything to do with Harry. He may have told Dumbledore straight away, or he may have decided to wait until after the 3rd task was over and they could have a meeting in private - after all, it's not the sort of thing you want to say in front of the whole school plus half the Ministry, now, is it?

Snape was two hours late. Most likely that was because of Umbridge going into the forest with the kids. But Snape may have wanted to tell Dumbledore he had been summoned before he responded.

You mixed GoF and Ootp there. :p

So here's my take on that scene:
Harry and Cedric vanishes from the maze, and say 30 minutes later, Snape feels the dark mark burn. At this point, Snape is faced with a problem that he hasn't had in 13 years. Which master should he serve, and in what capacity? So he may have waited, and only made a firm descision later.

On the other hand, if Snape's first thought was to stick with Dumbledore, I'm sure he told Dumbledore straight away.

My only guess at this point is that Dumbledore didn't want Snape to have to explain why he vanished so suddenly in the middle of such a crisis (harry and cedric were missing).

Plus Snape would be able to tell Voldemort that he'd stayed to keep his spying position. If he had gone right away, Voldemort would have taken Snape out of that position, because Dumbledore would have known that Snape was "disloyal"

I hope that makes sense

It makes the situation even more confusing. :lol:

For this leads to two things, one Snape's loyalty, second if Snape's loyalty is clarified then it comes to Dumbledore.

I mean if Snape is good, he would have told Dumbledore immediately and then it raises the question as to why didn't Dumbledore react?

If Snape is evil then his action is justified, but then did he really think so much that he had to stay or did he make that up to save his neck in front Voldemort?

Snape couldn't know it had anything to do with Harry.

I know, and that is why I changed my question a bit and asked the reason why Dumbledore didn't ask Severus Snape to act before and why did he wait till Harry was out of the maze? :hmm:

It makes the situation even more confusing. For this leads to two things, one Snape's loyalty, second if Snape's loyalty is clarified then it comes to Dumbledore. I mean if Snape is good, he would have told Dumbledore immediately and then it raises the question as to why didn't Dumbledore react? If Snape is evil then his action is justified, but then did he really think so much that he had to stay or did he make that up to save his neck in front Voldemort?
What I was trying to do was outline 2 different possibilities:

1) Snape had not had to declare loyalty for the past 13 years. When He felt the dark mark, he was still deciding which way he would go at this point - and did not tell Dumbledore until later.

2) Snape told Dumbledore right away. Dumbledore wanted Snape to stay at Hogwarts AND spy on Voldemort - So he sent Snape back later so Snape could tell Voldemort that he'd not come right away so as not to make Dumbledore suspicious.

That's what I was trying to do in that last post - but I'd like to scrap the first possibility. If that's what happened, Snape would not have told Fudge in front of Dumbledore that he'd felt his mark burn several hours before.

2) Snape told Dumbledore right away. Dumbledore wanted Snape to stay at Hogwarts AND spy on Voldemort - So he sent Snape back later so Snape could tell Voldemort that he'd not come right away so as not to make Dumbledore suspicious.
I've reread that passage, trying to find a clue that Dumbledore knew Voldemort was back before Harry told him. It's not clear - certainly Dumbledore was able to get on top of things very quickly, although this doesn't prove Snape filled him in on anything. I'm more inclined to think that Snape told Dumbledore after Harry came back. But Lupin and Sirius, at any rate, give Harry the credit for telling Dumbledore that Voldemort was back, even though they knew at that point that Snape was a double agent and had the Dark Mark.[Sirius]"His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, your see. He messed it up."
"Or rather, you messed it up for him," said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
"How?" Harry asked, perplexed.
"You weren't supposed to survive!" said Sirius. "Nobody apart form his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness."
"And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore," said Lupin. "And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once."

Well, even had Snape told Dumbledore that he felt the dark mark burn, which would have indicated that Voldemort had returned - Harry was the one who saw the manner of Voldemort's rebirth, and his Death Eater meeting - so I don't think it's a contradiction. Also, Sirius and Lupin may not have known that Snape told Dumbledore, as Dumbledore probably tries to keep Snape's Death Eater past (and his dark mark) out of conversation.

But I think that the fact that Snape shows Fudge his dark mark in front of Dumbledore means that by that time at least, Snape had told Dumbledore.

2) Snape told Dumbledore right away. Dumbledore wanted Snape to stay at Hogwarts AND spy on Voldemort - So he sent Snape back later so Snape could tell Voldemort that he'd not come right away so as not to make Dumbledore suspicious.

That actually is a wonderful point. Dumbledore didn't react, because he didn't want Voldemort to think that he suspected his faithful spy and for that Snape needed to be at Hogwarts. :tu:

But I think that the fact that Snape shows Fudge his dark mark in front of Dumbledore means that by that time at least, Snape had told Dumbledore.
Yes, I think so too. But Harry is credited with telling him first, although perhaps the eye-witness account was more useful than a burning Dark Mark.

Alright another question....it appears that the Death Eaters knew about the day when Voldemort would go after the Potters and then the Longbottoms, now if Snape knew that then why didn't he tell it to Dumbledore? :hmm:

Alright another question....it appears that the Death Eaters knew about the day when Voldemort would go after the Potters and then the Longbottoms, now if Snape knew that then why didn't he tell it to Dumbledore?


Snape did warn Dumbledore that Voldemort was after the Potters, but I just don't think 21 year old Sevvie was important enough for Voldemort to confide his plans like that. Somehow, Bellatrix and co found out that Voldemort had been showing an interest in the Longbottoms, and went to "investigate", but that doesn't mean they all knew Voldemort's plans.

Alright another question....it appears that the Death Eaters knew about the day when Voldemort would go after the Potters and then the Longbottoms, now if Snape knew that then why didn't he tell it to Dumbledore? :hmm:

Some say he did just that.

Some say he did just that.
What is the canon for that?

So some people believe Snape warned Dumbledore of the exact date of the attack, Dumbledore warned James, and James didn't believe them but stayed defiantly in his Fidelius-protected safehouse? Please note that Snape was wrong about Sirius in that speech. James was never "mistaken in Black".

What is the canon for that?

It's not a Canon question (there is also no Canon the other way after all), but there are more than a few here at CoS who have said that Severus was trying to warn James/Dumbledore/Lily just before the attack on Godric's Hollow. That he saw what happened, and so the attack impacted him in a way which simply hearing about later would never have done.

It's not a Canon question (there is also no Canon the other way after all), but there are more than a few here at CoS who have said that Severus was trying to warn James/Dumbledore/Lily just before the attack on Godric's Hollow. That he saw what happened, and so the attack impacted him in a way which simply hearing about later would never have done.
Unfortunately, what a few people (or even more than a few) think is still only speculation. We have absolutely no canon to support it.

A question: if Snape knew so much about the planned attack, why did he still believe Sirius was the traitor? (his ranting about James being "mistaken in Black")

We have absolutely no canon to support it.

And as I reminded you, there is absolutely nothing to prove the opposite contention, either. I do not demand proof where none exists either way, and I consider all reasonable possibilities. It's the polite thing to do, and generates positive discussion.


A question: if Snape knew so much about the planned attack, why did he still believe Sirius was the traitor? (his ranting about James being "mistaken in Black")

For the same reason that Snape could not defend Lily himself at Godric's Hollow; he was not in on the Secret Keeper's identity.

And as I reminded you, there is absolutely nothing to prove the opposite contention, either. I do not demand proof where none exists either way, and I consider all reasonable possibilities. It's the polite thing to do, and generates positive discussion.
Since when is it rude to ask for canon support of theories? Since when is it rude to disagree with someone else's assertions? Sometimes, when canon proof is requested, there is some to provide. Until the question is asked, how can anyone be sure if there is canon or not? And when the possible flaws in a theory are explored, the theory can get strengthened with greater precision as weaker points get corrected or discarded.

I personally think they may have gone under Fidelius due to a tip provided to Dumbledore from Snape. But it probably wasn't very specific as to how imminent the danger was.

I'm going to address the various iterations of the theory that Snape knew of the attack, and the Potters didn't heed the warning--either communicated to them directly by Dumbledore or communicated to them directly by Snape.

One version claims that Snape went to Godric's Hollow the night of the attack to either convince James or aid in their defense.

Snape couldn't penetrate the Fidelius Charm and did not know Wormtail was the Secret Keeper, so he wouldn't have been much use. And if he did know that Wormtail was Secret Keeper and had been told the secret, then he deliberately let Sirius rot in prision for 12 years, and it would run contrary to his demonstrated belief that it was Sirius. And if Voldemort had brought Snape along, Snape sure didn't try to help the Potters since Voldemort would have blown Snape away for interfering and being a traitor.

Besides, there is more support that Snape wasn't at Godric's Hollow than that he was there. JKR has told us he wasn't there under the invisibility cloak. I really can't see her turning around and saying, "Ha Ha but he was there without the cloak." She doesn't give detailed information to us on her website along with a sneaky secret trick.


Alternatively there is the belief that Snape warned Dumbledore, but James ignored it.

Even if Snape wasn't at Godric's Hollow, and he warned Dumbledore there was going to be an impending attack, Dumbledore probably would have sent others, if not himself, to try to protect the Potters regardless of James's reaction to the information.


Another versions claims that Snape directly warned James sometime prior to the attack.

I find it completely unconvincing that Snape warned the Potters about the attack or specifically about Sirius. First off, no one except Dumbledore knew who the Secret Keeper was supposed to be. I really can't see Dumbledore sharing that information with others. So when Snape said that James was mistaken in Black, it was a conclusion made with hindsight after Sirius had been arrested. And why would James have believed anything Snape might had said to him about any possible attack? They hated each other, and even assuming that James didn't know Snape had been a DE, Snape wouldn't have been believed since he did have associations with DEs and the Dark Arts.BTW, theories aren't determined or decided by popularity contests. Canon and logic support or disprove theories.

if Snape knew so much about the planned attack, why did he still believe Sirius was the traitor?

Like you have yourself, said I also don't think that Snape knew so much. Therefore I don't think he knew that Peter was the Spy. ;)

Okay, been away too long, it's in the middle of the night, so just adding my 2 cents to the title.

Just because I believe Snape is Dumbledore's man, does mean that he is a great person. ;)

Okay, been away too long

:welcome: back Moe. :D

Just because I believe Snape is Dumbledore's man, does mean that he is a great person.

And why do you think that Snape is Dumbledore's man? :huh:

Since when is it rude to ask for canon support of theories?

Asking is not rude at all. Demanding it when there is none for the other position, is rather rude.

Could we keep technicalities out of the thread, please? If you have any problems with certain posts, please owl a staff member or use the report post button.

Just because I believe Snape is Dumbledore's man, does mean that he is a great person.
Oh, absolutely!

I was reading PS today, and I was struck by two things that still sum up the Snape debate. On Harry's first evening at Hogwarts Harry was bewildered by Snape's obvious dislike of him. You may say that Harry was confused by the pain in his scar caused by Voldemort looking at him from Quirrells turban at the same time, but the pain and Snape's look were two different things. In the first Potions lesson, Harry is again bewildered by Snape's uncalled for aggression towards him. At that point Harry had done nothing. He was a vulnerable, orphaned eleven year old starting a new life in a confusing new world and Snape verbally attacks him. Yes, Harry does stand up for himself, but his reply was really quite polite, delivered in a quiet voice after long provocation, "No, but I think Hermione knows. Why don't you ask her." Shortly afterwards, Snape takes another house point from Harry, for not babysitting Neville - who was working with Seamus at the time, on another table! Harry leaves the classroom wondering why why Snape hates him so much.

Yet a few chapters later, Snape saves Harry's life, when Quirrell is bewitching Harry's broomstick. He didn't have to do it. None of the other staff members intervened, and Snape could easily have looked the other way and pretended not to notice. Without Snape's countercurse, Harry would probably have fallen after a very short time, and no one could have blamed Snape for it!

So right from the beginning of their relationship we have this contrast. Snape is beastly to Harry, but he saves his life. And he goes on being beastly to Harry and he goes on saving his life in the other books.

Before HBP my position on this was very clear. Snape is a nasty git but he always does the right thing when push comes to shove. Then Snape killed Dumbledore, which was shocking and unexpected and everyone's immediate reaction was that Snape must have been evil all along. I went through HBP writing down clues for and against Snape, and ended up with two equally long lists. I'm about 90% sure that Snape is on the side of the Order, and at least 100% sure that he is a deeply horrible person - but with redemptive qualities!

Oh, absolutely!

I was reading PS today, and I was struck by two things that still sum up the Snape debate. On Harry's first evening at Hogwarts Harry was bewildered by Snape's obvious dislike of him. You may say that Harry was confused by the pain in his scar caused by Voldemort looking at him from Quirrells turban at the same time, but the pain and Snape's look were two different things. In the first Potions lesson, Harry is again bewildered by Snape's uncalled for aggression towards him. At that point Harry had done nothing. He was a vulnerable, orphaned eleven year old starting a new life in a confusing new world and Snape verbally attacks him. Yes, Harry does stand up for himself, but his reply was really quite polite, delivered in a quiet voice after long provocation, "No, but I think Hermione knows. Why don't you ask her." Shortly afterwards, Snape takes another house point from Harry, for not babysitting Neville - who was working with Seamus at the time, on another table! Harry leaves the classroom wondering why why Snape hates him so much.

Yet a few chapters later, Snape saves Harry's life, when Quirrell is bewitching Harry's broomstick. He didn't have to do it. None of the other staff members intervened, and Snape could easily have looked the other way and pretended not to notice. Without Snape's countercurse, Harry would probably have fallen after a very short time, and no one could have blamed Snape for it!

So right from the beginning of their relationship we have this contrast. Snape is beastly to Harry, but he saves his life. And he goes on being beastly to Harry and he goes on saving his life in the other books.

Before HBP my position on this was very clear. Snape is a nasty git but he always does the right thing when push comes to shove. Then Snape killed Dumbledore, which was shocking and unexpected and everyone's immediate reaction was that Snape must have been evil all along. I went through HBP writing down clues for and against Snape, and ended up with two equally long lists. I'm about 90% sure that Snape is on the side of the Order, and at least 100% sure that he is a deeply horrible person - but with redemptive qualities!That pretty much sums it up how I see Snape (although I made no list :tu: ).

About Snape knowing the exact date of the attack on the Potters or the Secret Keeper´s true identity: I agree that most likely young Severus was not considered trustworthy or important enough to be let in on everything. Even if he had reported the (part-) prophecy to LV. LV does not strike me as someone who divulges his most important plans to more people than necessary. And if LV had planned all along to send Snape as a spy to Dumbledore, he would not risk Snape knowing too much, IMO.

:welcome: back Moe. :D

Thank you. :D

And why do you think that Snape is Dumbledore's man? :huh:

You really want me to list this out don't you. Basically, one simple thing convinced me that he was good.

"Your remember," said Dumbledore, "the condition on which I brough you with me?"
Harry hesitated, looking into the blue eyes that had turned green in the reflected light of the basin.
<snip>
"You swore, did you not to follow any command I gave you?"
<snip>
"Yor word, Harry."
"I - all right, but -"

Sound familiar as to Dumbledore and Snape's argument in the forest that Hagrid overheard.

Both Snape and Harry had made an agreement with Dumbledore that Dumbledore demanded that they keep, despite neither Harry nor Snape wanting to do so.

To complete this mirror between Harry and Snape, JK left in my view a very compelling clue.

Hating himself, [u]repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it <snip>

And then Snape.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was [u]revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

Both Harry and Snape's descriptions are exact. If you look in the dictionary revulsion and repulsed both mean disgust (in mine anyway). Both were about to hurt Dumbledore (Harry forcefeed Dumbledore the potion, Snape AKing Dumbledore).

IMO the scenarios are a mirror, the interpretation of it lies with Harry as we know what and why Harry was doing it and what he was feeling.

Now, you can debate as much as you like (and I know you will if you disagree with me), but this is the reason that convinced me that Snape was good. :p

I'm about 90% sure that Snape is on the side of the Order, and at least 100% sure that he is a deeply horrible person - but with redemptive qualities!I'm 100% sure that Snape is on the side of the Order. And I'm 200% sure that he is a deeply horrible person--we've gotten that directly from JKR; what more do we need? He does have redemptive qualities, but he is never going to be a fluffy bunny.

When Snape fled Hogwarts, he had several opportunities to hurt or capture Harry. Voldemort may have given out orders that Harry has to be left to him, but I don't think that precludes roughing Harry up a bit. And I can't see Voldemort being that upset with a stupefied and/or body-bound Harry being delivered to him for whatever Voldemort's planned for fun and games.

Instead, Snape stopped a DE from using the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. And he only parried Harry spells and used a spell to brush Harry back. He prevented Harry from using any unforgivable curses, and told him not to use them. Finally, he also gave Harry good advice about how to defeat Voldemort: keep your mind and mouth shut (i.e. use Occlumency and non-verbal spells).

I'm 100% sure that Snape is on the side of the Order. And I'm 200% sure that he is a deeply horrible person--we've gotten that directly from JKR; what more do we need? He does have redemptive qualities, but he is never going to be a fluffy bunny.

When Snape fled Hogwarts, he had several opportunities to hurt or capture Harry. Voldemort may have given out orders that Harry has to be left to him, but I don't think that precludes roughing Harry up a bit. And I can't see Voldemort being that upset with a stupefied and/or body-bound Harry being delivered to him for whatever Voldemort's planned for fun and games.

Instead, Snape stopped a DE from using the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. And he only parried Harry spells and used a spell to brush Harry back. He prevented Harry from using any unforgivable curses, and told him not to use them. Finally, he also gave Harry good advice about how to defeat Voldemort: keep your mind and mouth shut (i.e. use Occlumency and non-verbal spells).

:clap: Good points that you brought up there ComicBookWorm!! Those are some of the reasons why I think that Snape is on the side of the Order as well!! What's the point of having him be on Voldemort's side and be entirely evil :hmm:, it just doesn't make any sense to me...

Thank you. :D



You really want me to list this out don't you. Basically, one simple thing convinced me that he was good.

"Your remember," said Dumbledore, "the condition on which I brough you with me?"
Harry hesitated, looking into the blue eyes that had turned green in the reflected light of the basin.
<snip>
"You swore, did you not to follow any command I gave you?"
<snip>
"Yor word, Harry."
"I - all right, but -"

Sound familiar as to Dumbledore and Snape's argument in the forest that Hagrid overheard.

Both Snape and Harry had made an agreement with Dumbledore that Dumbledore demanded that they keep, despite neither Harry nor Snape wanting to do so.

To complete this mirror between Harry and Snape, JK left in my view a very compelling clue.

Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it <snip>

And then Snape.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

Both Harry and Snape's descriptions are exact. If you look in the dictionary revulsion and repulsed both mean disgust (in mine anyway). Both were about to hurt Dumbledore (Harry forcefeed Dumbledore the potion, Snape AKing Dumbledore).

IMO the scenarios are a mirror, the interpretation of it lies with Harry as we know what and why Harry was doing it and what he was feeling.

Now, you can debate as much as you like (and I know you will if you disagree with me), but this is the reason that convinced me that Snape was good. :p

Good comparison. :tu:

And I agree with CBW that Snape is with the Order but is equally Evil. :lol:

I also think Snape was the one who told DD about LV going for the Potters. There is no one else spying in the DE's, DD seems to suggests that in HBP ("when he realised LV was going for your parents", the biggest mistake of his life).

I thought about something the other day: did Marauders treating Snape so badly just because he existed push Snape into the DE squad? That way, maybe Snape finally got some company of his age, some power to hit back at his bullies.

That would be another twist into why there was such hostility among them...he hated them for making him a DE.

Notice something though: his Sectumsempra merely leaves a single cut on James' face in OOTP. For all the Marauders probably put him through in school years, that was a pretty controlled spell and response.
In contrast, Harry is waving his wand like mad in HBP and slashes all over Draco.

That line about Snape existing is really overworked and over-interpreted and overblown. It didn't mean that they thought that Snape didn't have a right to exist. Think about it. How many times have any of us thought something along the lines of: "I can't stand that person," or "I don't like being around that person." That's all it meant. They detested Snape and he detested them. Nothing new or exciting about that piece of knowledge. We've known that since SS/PS. Dumbledore told Harry (and us).

At the moment that Lily asked James why he was attacking Snape, James didn't exactly have the time to launch into a thesis listing all the things about Snape that he didn't like. Nor would a teenage boy want to sound like he was whining and complaining to a girl he was interested in. He couldn't stand Snape, so he gave Lily the quick answer about Snape existing.

Whatever reasons Snape had for becoming a DE had nothing to do with whether James hated him or not. He hated James. It was mutual, and nothing that James thought about him would mean much to him. Draco isn't upset by any verbal digs made by Harry. And Harry isn't impressed or upset by Draco's nastiness.

Snape was attracted to the Dark Arts. Snape hung out with the Hogwarts chapter of the Junior Death Eaters. Snape was a withdrawn outsider. He probably joined because it make him feel like he belonged to something. Something that would make anyone feel more powerful and important--just look at how Draco acted in HBP. It's possible that pain over losing Lily (assuming he loved her) was his last straw. But the Marauders' opinion of him would not have been a factor.

Snape was attracted to the Dark Arts - I think that's something Sirius exaggerates greaty in OOTP. I doubt even Tom Riddle in his first year knew more dark curses than most 7 year students. Yes, Snape invented curses and yes he was into Dark Arts but he wasn't a wizard genius at age 11.

You have to admit saying "He exists." after being asked directly what Snape ever did to him was a pretty nasty answer. He could have said anything: "He's always following us around", "I hate Dark arts and he's into them" etc. In that memory we didn't see Snape do anything do Marauders, they bullied him, because it was 2 against 1, and just because they felt like it. Assuming James doesn't waltz around and curse anyone with so much as a dirty look against him (even if Lilly does claim he curses everyone he dislikes in that scene), I think Snape was always their target for the sake of a bully needing a victim.

They had a mutual dislike, but picking on someone certainly doesn't help matters and it's not an excuse. You can dislike someone and disagree with them without picking on them, and there's a difference between verbal bickering in high school a la Harry and Draco (mostly) and relentless physical bullying a la Harry and Dudley and Marauders and Snape.

But, it can eventually bring the victim to the point where he either cracks or stands up for himself. In this case it was Snape hanging out with DEs and practising Dark Arts.

For all the Marauders probably put him through in school years, that was a pretty controlled spell and response.We have no idea what the Maruders did or didn't do to Snape other than what we saw in SWM.

BTW, I wasn't excusing how James behaved. I was pointing out that far too much has been read into a rather simple phrase: "He exists." And no, James could not have started to list all the things he disliked about Snape to Lily. He was busy at the moment, and guys don't like to sound like they are whining and moaning about things around a girl they like, anyway. So he wouldn't have told Lily all things he disliked about Snape.

Saying that you dislike someone because he exists is exactly the same as saying you can't stand someone. That's all it meant.

And as for what Sirius said about Snape, it's in print. Sirius said that Snape knew a lot of Dark Curses. And no, Voldemort wouldn't have known Dark Curses since he was raised in a muggle orphanage.

We don't know that the Marauders relentlessly bullied Snape. That is not canon. And Snape is responsible for his own decisions. He chose to become a DE.

I thought this was the Snape, the Obscure Thread. And we were only supposed to post in one of the threads. :huh:

You mixed GoF and Ootp there.
:blush: Yeah I did. I have to watch those posts I jot off right before bedtime. This was from a few pages back. But I am embarrassed enough to acknowledge it now.

You have to admit saying "He exists." after being asked directly what Snape ever did to him was a pretty nasty answer. He could have said anything: "He's always following us around", "I hate Dark arts and he's into them" etc. In that memory we didn't see Snape do anything do Marauders, they bullied him, because it was 2 against 1, and just because they felt like it. Assuming James doesn't waltz around and curse anyone with so much as a dirty look against him (even if Lilly does claim he curses everyone he dislikes in that scene), I think Snape was always their target for the sake of a bully needing a victim.
Don't you think it would sound a bit whiny to say "because he's always following us around", though? "Muuuum, Snivelly is following us again!!!!!!" "Because he exists" sounds much cooler. And publicly accusing Snape of the Dark Arts would have been much worse!

We have no idea what the Maruders did or didn't do to Snape other than what we saw in SWM.

It's implied from other things in the books. SWM had the feel, if you will, of something which had happened pretty regularly. The text noted that Snape was "expecting" the attack, which shows it was something James did when he had the chance.


Saying that you dislike someone because he exists is exactly the same as saying you can't stand someone. That's all it meant.

I disagree. It was how a bully says he does not feel he has to explain what he knows to be indefensible. It says that he thinks the victim does not even have the right to be left alone when he does nothing to provoke the attack, as we saw in SWM.


And as for what Sirius said about Snape, it's in print. Sirius said that Snape knew a lot of Dark Curses.

There are a lot of things "in print" in the books which turned out to be utter bilge. Sirius Black is not a reliable source for the moral character of Severus Snape.


We don't know that the Marauders relentlessly bullied Snape. That is not canon. And Snape is responsible for his own decisions. He chose to become a DE.

Sorry, but it is Canon. Snape gave some back, if we can believe Remus Lupin, but James and Sirius chose to harass and molest Severus.

As often as they could.

That is Canon.

Now you are correct, that does not excuse Severus joining up with the Death Eaters, and he certainly is responsible for his choices, as is a major theme of the books - we all make choices and live with the consequences. It's simply that Harry will have to come to grips with the fact that his father and Godfather not only were 'idiots', as Remus called them, while they were in school, in at least Sirius' case they never grew out of it. It bears on this discussion, because we should consider the mind of Severus Snape and how he chose his course in reaction to that emnity.

I disagree. It was how a bully says he does not feel he has to explain what he knows to be indefensible. It says that he thinks the victim does not even have the right to be left alone when he does nothing to provoke the attack, as we saw in SWM.
How do we know whether Snape had provoked the attack or not? We don't know what Snape had done that day, the day before, or any time. It's a big leap to suddenly assume that he was completely innocent. We do know that he followed the Marauders around trying to get them in trouble. We know that he was so interested in finding out what they were up to that he stupidly entered the Whomping Willow.

I was not justifying the Marauders' attacking Snape. I was just pointing out that saying "He exists" is entirely consistent with a comparable statement that they couldn't stand him.

Sorry, but it is Canon. Snape gave some back, if we can believe Remus Lupin, but James and Sirius chose to harass and molest Severus. As often as they could. That is Canon.
Show me the canon stating that they harrassed Snape as often as they could. We know they did attack him. We have no canon stating they did it as often as possible. We do have canon that states that Snape never missed a chance to hex James.

I would like to remind people that if you do not agree with the following statement...
This thread is the doozy. You may think Snape is a working for the order, but still remains a nasty piece of poop! ...then they do not belong in this thread.
Please respect the boundaries and rules of the Triumvirate threads.
Thanks!

I've been wondering about this for a while -
We know that at one point, Snape was a Death Eater. but we don't know what his intentions were. Did Snape just follow his friends in hope that joining this group would bring him acceptance? Or did Snape really beleive in the Death Eater ideals at this point in his life.

I tend to think that it was a mixture of both. From what we've seen Slytherins tend to be against muggles and muggleborn witches and wizards. And I see no reason to presume that Snape was different on this account. But I also think that this brought Snape into a group, and it was a group that those he was friends with were joining.

(I'm assuming of course, that in the end, Snape changed his mind and decided that the Voldemort and his Death Eaters were immoral - I'm just talking about his original joining as well as the years in which he remained a Death Eater)

I have been toying with the notion that Severus Snape does not know his own opinion on some points. This could not only explain how he can hide his emotions from Voldemort, but also how it is that he could so obviously hate Harry, yet protect him as well.

JKR loves to keep us all guessing... What a classic topic, Snape good or evil? His motives might be for the wrong reasons, but I think Snape is on the good side. We have seen throughout the series that he has a sick and twisted mind... but I happen to believe that is because of his horrible past, not what he really chooses. As said before when it comes down to it, Snape always did the right thing. Although sometimes it makes me wonder if it was because he couldn't give any bad evidence against him self to keep Dumbledore's trust.

I've been wondering about this for a while -
We know that at one point, Snape was a Death Eater. but we don't know what his intentions were. Did Snape just follow his friends in hope that joining this group would bring him acceptance? Or did Snape really beleive in the Death Eater ideals at this point in his life.

It would be incredibly hard for him to truthfully believe that he was inferior to purebloods as he is generally one of the most prideful characters in the book.

If this makes sense, I believe it was a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. After being made fun of for most of his Hogwarts career, you can see him being driven to just "accept" what has been laid out for him.

I have been toying with the notion that Severus Snape does not know his own opinion on some points. This could not only explain how he can hide his emotions from Voldemort, but also how it is that he could so obviously hate Harry, yet protect him as well.He does seem to be very conflicted about his attitude toward Harry.

He does seem to be very conflicted about his attitude toward Harry.

I agree! It's clear to me that he extremely dislikes Harry as a person, in part because of James, but the fact that he looks out for Harry is proof that he's not working for the Death Eaters. I think that it was the allure of power and possibly being able to get back at everyone who hurt him may have played a factor in what led him to join the Death Eaters in the first place. However, at this point in time he's probably realized that a world run by Voldemort would not benefit anyone. He's looking out for himself, first and foremost.

He does seem to be very conflicted about his attitude toward Harry.

That's been apparent from the very first book, and is still unchanged (IMO). Personally, I've always put it down to the fact that Snape is a reluctant good guy! In PS Quirrell comments on how useful it was to have Snape "swooping around like an overgrown bat" looking like the villain of the piece. Snape would be much better cut out to be a bad guy if personality and appearance could decide. But somewhere along the line he decided to join Dumbledore, and now he's a fish out of water! He's living proof that not all the nasty people are Death Eaters.

But for all the times Snape looked out for Harry, wasn't it because he was under Dumbledore's employ ? He never let anything major happen to Potter, (which would have been obvious ?) but he sure took it out on him on the small stuff whenever he could.
I wonder what the whole "coward" thing is about.. he certainly didn't take to being called a coward at the end of HPB.
Still, he may be redeemable in the end of the series, at any rate. Only LV is unredeemable, according to JKR.

But for all the times Snape looked out for Harry, wasn't it because he was under Dumbledore's employ ? He never let anything major happen to Potter, (which would have been obvious ?) but he sure took it out on him on the small stuff whenever he could.
I wonder what the whole "coward" thing is about.. he certainly didn't take to being called a coward at the end of HPB.
He may be redeemable in the end of the series, at any rate. Only LV is unredeemable, according to JKR.


I think Snape went beyond the call of duty, though. In PS he was actively following Harry around to try and protect him from Quirrell, and he made the very unpopular decision to referee the second Quidditch match, again, to protect Harry from Quirrell. The other teachers didn't go to such lengths, so no one would have blamed Snape if he'd kept out of the way and let Quirrell finish Harry off.

There is an interesting possible explanation for this which Snape gives Bellatrix at Spinners End, though, so it's all still open until book 7! If Snape was telling the truth to Bellatrix, then he protected Harry because he thought Harry might be a new Dark Lord!

I don't know that I'd say Snape actually followed Harry around to protect him.. yes, he went to the Quidditch match, but at that time, he thought Quirrel was on his own, and Snape was still working under DD's nose. Saving Harry looks good on Snape's resume. All the other, nasty, stuff, flies under the radar.

All the other, nasty, stuff, flies under the radar.

I don't think that is true. There are many readers who focus pretty much only on the nasty stuff.

Severus does seem to go out of his way to watch out for Harry. It doesn't seem odd when Albus and Rubeus do ths sort of thing, for it is in their character, but Severus? He acts very much like the older brother charged to keep his younger sibling safe, who neither wanted nor enjoys the job.

He acts very much like the older brother charged to keep his younger sibling safe, who neither wanted nor enjoys the job. I like that description. And, like a sibling, he certainly doesn't make any secret to Harry that he doesn't enjoy the job.;)

However, as a teacher at Hogwarts, it is his job to look after students as much as anyone else on staff, so I don't know that I would characterize protecting Harry as being "in character" or "out of character" - it was his duty, if he suspected a student was in danger, to come to that student's aid. Ignoring that would be neglecting what was expected of him as a teacher.

I don't think that is true. There are many readers who focus pretty much only on the nasty stuff.
This is the thread where are allowed to be critical of Snape. In fact, this is thread where we think Snape is an awful person, but not necessarily evil. This is the thread where we think that Snape is deeply flawed and treats his students very badly, even to the point of bullying poor Neville. We are allowed to think that Snape is deeply horrible (just like JKR does). We are allowed to view Snape negatively. We are even allowed to think that Snape may not have been a helpless victim during his school years, that he may have been actively hexing the Marauders, even before his seventh year. We are allowed to think that Sirius was right, and Snape did know more dark curses than some seventh year students, and that Snape did hang around with the Hogwarts chapter of the junior DEs.

We are supposed to examine his flaws and failings. And we are supposed to examine his questionable and ambiguous actions and behaviors. Some of us may think that Snape is against Voldemort, but not exactly a dashing heroic character, himself. In fact some of us aren't even entirely sure he is good, but aren't entirely sure he is evil either. And some of us think he is out for himself only and on no one's side.

So I feel very confused when we get defense of Snape posts challenging our assumptions. There is another thread where Snape is viewed more positively, but this isn't it.

That's been apparent from the very first book, and is still unchanged (IMO). Personally, I've always put it down to the fact that Snape is a reluctant good guy! In PS Quirrell comments on how useful it was to have Snape "swooping around like an overgrown bat" looking like the villain of the piece. Snape would be much better cut out to be a bad guy if personality and appearance could decide. But somewhere along the line he decided to join Dumbledore, and now he's a fish out of water! He's living proof that not all the nasty people are Death Eaters.
nice post :tu:
I think that at some point, Snape realized that Voldemort and his Death Eaters are immoral, at which point he decided to join Dumbledore. I have no idea how he came to this realization. But even so, he does not truly belong with the "good side" He just doesn't seem to fit in. And even though he seems to have decided that the murder and torture that the Death Eaters did was wrong, he seems to think that lesser cruelties are acceptable (such as bullying Neville)

-------------------
There's another idea that I think I may have posted a while ago on the Snape's Betrayal thread - I think that Snape is just not cut out to be a teacher. He can't relate to people who have less talent and intelligence than he does (and of course this is expected in a teacher-student relationship)

If Snape had a job, say doing research, where he mainly only had contact with talented and intelligent people - I'm not saying that Snape would be lovable, but I think he'd be tolerable.

So the theory I had was that Snape hates teaching (which shows in how he treats his students), and that one of the reasons he wanted the DADA job was to get out of teaching. But Dumbledore wanted Snape at Hogwarts and wouldn't allow this to happen.

Can we leave thread logistics out of this please? :) Instead, I'll just remind everyone of Morgoth's post:

Snape the Obscure

This thread is the doozy. You may think Snape is a working for the order, but still remains a nasty piece of poop! He's got a foul past that has made him all bitter and angry, but he hasn't lost sight of the greater picture and this thread is for you to discuss aspects of his character with this in mind, referencing all those pieces of information that point to him being the way he is. Evidence, people!

As an added call, as this thread isn't good/bad either way but more of an obscure look at the Snape persona, you must assume Snape's intentions are good, but that his character is not pure, nor friendly. This means that this thread holds the most risk associated with it, as it could close quicker.

Thank you :)

Instead, I'll just remind everyone of Morgoth's post:
Does this mean we can call Snape a 'nasty piece of poop'? :rotfl: (sorry, I just found that expression funny :lol: )

In fact, this is thread where we think Snape is an awful person, but not necessarily evil. This is the thread where we think that Snape is deeply flawed and treats his students very badly, even to the point of bullying poor Neville. I pretty much agree with that. :) I think Snape is nasty, and I specially dislike him regarding Neville.

I also remember that I really disliked him in PoA.

But also I think that he might be on Dumbledores side, aka on the good side. Like Sirius says, the world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters, and Snape could be one of these 'nasty but on the good side' people.

As for the reasons, well as said previously, my bet is on something James related. IMO he has not repayed his life debt still, and if this creates a strong magical bond between two wizards, the consequences when you indirectly cause death of someone you owe your life can be enough to feel remorse.

And also because Dumbledore trusted Snape. Yeah, well Snape killed Dumbledore, but I still think that there's more to it than meets the eye.

There are things about his behavior that are hard to explain or justify. Neville is certainly one of those things.

There are things about his behavior that are hard to explain or justify. Neville is certainly one of those things.
Well I found interesting the quote by JKR regarding this issue, I don't remember exactly but it was a question, why Dumbledore lets Snape get away with bullying the students, and she replies that Dumbledore thinks that certain lessons have to be learned the hard way, and a nasty teacher is one of those lessons.

Allthough I must say that regarding Neville, it's specially hard, since he had a really tough past and difficult time at home already. I guess it's just not a Snape thing to be very sensitive about that. But it would have been nice by Dumbledore to prevent the major damage, specially since Snape is (or was) Nevilles worst fear. That's a strong thing. He's on the same scale than Dementors for Harry, Spiders for arachnophobic Ron, failure for Hermione, etc.

There are things about his behavior that are hard to explain or justify. Neville is certainly one of those things.

Is it? I'd say Snape was just ashamed that someone with Neville's heritage and his talented parents could be so abysmal at magic. I can't see Snape caring about the fact that Neville was abysmal due to childhood trauma. Snape chose to ridicule and scorn him for being inept.

He wasn't overly impressed with Harry's background either (ignoring the trans-generational hate Snape transferred onto Harry). Harry's exposure to the magical world was the same as a muggleborn's. Just look at the way he pounced on Harry in his first lesson.

Is it? I'd say Snape was just ashamed that someone with Neville's heritage and his talented parents could be so abysmal at magic. I can't see Snape caring about the fact that Neville was abysmal due to childhood trauma. Snape chose to ridicule and scorn him for being inept.
But Neville isn't abysmal. He's clumsy, and lacks confidence, but bullying the poor kid and putting him under pressure is the worst way to handle him. Remember the Potions OWL? Neville did fine without Snape breathing down his neck. He's also very talented at Herbology and managed an Exceeds Expectation in Charms. Snape's choice to ridicule Neville was a poor choice no matter how you look at it. Of course, we all make poor choices, and I'm certainly not demanding that a fictional character should always do the right thing, but I don't think there is any way to excuse Snape's treatment of Neville. Snape himself was the cause of most of Neville's trauma past the age of 11.

Snape himself was the cause of most of Neville's trauma past the age of 11.Hence Neville's boggart.

It was wonderful to see him flower as a member of the DA. I hope we can see more of that in DH.

Hence Neville's boggart.
Exactly! You'd think maybe Bellatrix shouting Crucio, or the sight of his parents being tortured, but no, what terrifies Neville most of all is Snape.

Exactly! You'd think maybe Bellatrix shouting Crucio, or the sight of his parents being tortured, but no, what terrifies Neville most of all is Snape.

... and therein lies part of Snape's usefulness, I think. The kids learn to overcome their fear of Snape, and then can move on to the other harsh lessons of Life.

Snape is The Real World; impossible to fully understand, and therefore scary, but he has dimensions which help a person grow, and in some ways are necessary, possibly vital even.

... and therein lies part of Snape's usefulness, I think. The kids learn to overcome their fear of Snape, and then can move on to the other harsh lessons of Life.
But once the kids (Neville in particular) overcome their fear of Snape and his cruelty, they are still left with the scars he inflicted on them. They'll always have those memories of being victimized by him, and who knows what damage they'll carry into adulthood? Sometimes "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", but sometimes what doesn't kill you can burden you for a long, long time. I think Neville would be most at risk of this if he didn't have other, better teachers and friends, who succeed in helping him to learn difficult lessons without humiliating him.

I've always wondered if there was something behind Snape's hatred of Neville. We know his hatred of Harry turned out to have a backstory - it seems likely to me that there might be more to Snape and Neville than we know.

You would certainly hope that there was some sort of reason behing Snape's behavior towards Neville. I can't really imagine that it would be because of some rivalry with Neville's parents at Hogwarts, like with James. Maybe something to do with his parents being aurors and something they did when Snape was a Death Eater?

Yeah I don't think they were at school with him. They seem to have been older. Maybe something to do with Bellatrix and her torture of them?

The only theory I remember about why Snape treats Neville so poorly is something to do with Bellatrix torturing Neville's parents. However if he has some sort of guilty conscious about that then being horrible to Neville seems an odd way of easing his conscious.

You would certainly hope that there was some sort of reason behing Snape's behavior towards Neville. I can't really imagine that it would be because of some rivalry with Neville's parents at Hogwarts, like with James. Maybe something to do with his parents being aurors and something they did when Snape was a Death Eater?
I never thought about that! But it could be related to the three times the Longbottoms defied Voldemort, after all this had to be in the time while Snape was still a loyal Death Eater, so maybe they spoiled some mission Voldemort had given Snape. And allthough he maybe now is not anymore faithful to Voldemort, he might still be resentful that some people ruined some plan of him, regardless if he supports it today or not. Snape seems the sort of person to hold long grudges and to be very proud.

But once the kids (Neville in particular) overcome their fear of Snape and his cruelty, they are still left with the scars he inflicted on them. They'll always have those memories of being victimized by him, and who knows what damage they'll carry into adulthood? Sometimes "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", but sometimes what doesn't kill you can burden you for a long, long time. I think Neville would be most at risk of this if he didn't have other, better teachers and friends, who succeed in helping him to learn difficult lessons without humiliating him.

Knowing what it's like to suffer a teacher's bullying - I agree that in the real world someone like Snape would enable serious damage especially on students that might have self esteem issues already (or even suicidal tendencies.) I agree that emotional wounds do exist but ultimately it is within the power of the individual to let it go or not.

But this is the Potterverse -not the real world. Snape serves a special purpose. Neville will survive. If anything it seems Snape's treatment garners him more empathy from his friends and special attention from teacher's like Lupin (in the boggart scene.) I also wonder if Snape doesn't know something about Neville that we don't. In the boggart scene in POA Neville comments that he doesn't want to see the Boggart change into his Gran either indicating that she scates him just as much as Snape. How does Neville's own Grandmother treat him? Why is Neville so defeated from day one? In COS He calls himself "almost a squib" and assumes he's in as much danger as any muggleborn. I don't think he derived this attitude solely from Snape. There is something else going on with Neville and I don't think Snape is the sole cause.

The only theory I remember about why Snape treats Neville so poorly is something to do with Bellatrix torturing Neville's parents. However if he has some sort of guilty conscious about that then being horrible to Neville seems an odd way of easing his conscious.

Well, Severus Snape never seems to do the expected, does he?

I also thought it was interesting, that Severus seems to hate both Neville and Bella.

Yeah I don't think they were at school with him. They seem to have been older. Maybe something to do with Bellatrix and her torture of them? That's a good possibility. Although if the Longbottoms were at school with Snape, I would think they were probably in Gryffindor House, judging by the way the Sorting Hat tends to put family members in the same house. So their house affiliation could be a general reason for him to dislike them when he was at school but I agree it's probably more than that.

That they were aurors might be important. I've sometimes wondered what has become of Snape's parents - maybe the Longbottoms were involved in something unfortunate that happened with them.

I also thought it was interesting, that Severus seems to hate both Neville and Bella.

Hmmm. . I didn't get the impression he hates Bella. I don't think he liked her mistrust of him but I didn't get hate off it. Could just be me.


That they were aurors might be important. I've sometimes wondered what has become of Snape's parents - maybe the Longbottoms were involved in something unfortunate that happened with them.

I've always liked the theory that Eileen Prince had something to do with the Potions Book and that she was one of the original Death Eaters. It would certainly explain how Snape came to school knowing so many curses.

I also thought it was interesting, that Severus seems to hate both Neville and Bella.
Everyone should hate Bella though! :lol:

I wonder if it is significant that he seems to hate both of the kids who were involved in the prophecy. I mean it is assumed that he hates Harry solely because of James but what if it was deeper than that?


I've always liked the theory that Eileen Prince had something to do with the Potions Book and that she was one of the original Death Eaters. It would certainly explain how Snape came to school knowing so many curses.
Ooh, I like that idea.

The only theory I remember about why Snape treats Neville so poorly is something to do with Bellatrix torturing Neville's parents. However if he has some sort of guilty conscious about that then being horrible to Neville seems an odd way of easing his conscious.Maybe it has to do with the prophecy. Neville was obviously the other choice, the boy who almost became LV´s target. Assumed (I know we are not supposed to go into that, but just assumed) Snape had friendly feelings for Lily, he would have had an interest in maybe convincing LV to go after Neville and the Longbottoms. It then must have acerbated him that LV chose to go for Harry and in the process killed Lily. Sure, the Longbottoms are not really much better off at St Mungo´s and it is not Neville´s fault, but feelings are tricky sometimes. Maybe looking at Neville reminds Snape that things could have gone differently.

Which by no means excuses or justifies how horrible Snape treated Neville or others.

I also thought it was interesting, that Severus seems to hate both Neville and Bella.
In my opinion Snape reacted in that way because he was annoyed of Bellas justified or unjustified misstrust and maybe he feared that she will blow his cover when she would have continued questioning further.

As for Neville, maybe his parents did something in the past that caused trouble for Snape and he revenges it on Neville.

I never read any backstory behind Snape's treatment of Neville. I think that the truth comes from the very first speech Snape gives to the first years, where he says he can teach them pretty much anything "if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach". Snape just cannot tolerate people who don't catch on quickly - and Neville is one such person. In fact, just 2 pages later in the very same lesson, Snape calls Neville and "idiot boy".

... and therein lies part of Snape's usefulness, I think. The kids learn to overcome their fear of Snape, and then can move on to the other harsh lessons of Life.

Snape is The Real World; impossible to fully understand, and therefore scary, but he has dimensions which help a person grow, and in some ways are necessary, possibly vital even.
So bullying children is good for them because it toughens them up? :huh: I have to disagree with that.I've always wondered if there was something behind Snape's hatred of Neville. We know his hatred of Harry turned out to have a backstory - it seems likely to me that there might be more to Snape and Neville than we know.That's possible, but I'm more inclined to believe that this is just the way Snape is. He's horrible to Hermione too, and he can't know her parents (unless he once had a really bad experience with a Muggle root filling ...).

Lydon: What about Snape?
JKR: OK. Snape is the - er - very sadistic teacher loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. Erm .. I think it ... Children are very aware - and we ... we're kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are - that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher /does/ abuse his power. He is not a - he is not a particularly pleasant person at all.

link (http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html)
So I don't think Snape needs a personal grudge against every student he is mean to. I think it's just an accurate reflection of his personality.

I've always liked the theory that Eileen Prince had something to do with the Potions Book and that she was one of the original Death Eaters. It would certainly explain how Snape came to school knowing so many curses.
Why would a Death Eater marry a Muggle? Snape just cannot tolerate people who don't catch on quickly - and Neville is one such person. In fact, just 2 pages later in the very same lesson, Snape calls Neville and "idiot boy".

I agree with that, and I have trouble putting up with idiots myself, but that doesn't make it excusable to treat people that way, especially children in your care.

So bullying children is good for them because it toughens them up? :huh: I have to disagree with that.

Compared to Umbridge, Snape is not all that bad. Mean, nasty, ill-tempered, sure, but the world is full of such people, and you have to learn how to deal with them. Many times they get to be one's boss, but I digress ...

He's horrible to Hermione too, and he can't know her parents (unless he once had a really bad experience with a Muggle root filling ...). :rotfl: You might be on to something there! (Maybe they saw his yellow teeth, commented on his brushing habits and that was what sealed it for Hermione!) :lol:

Compared to Umbridge, Snape is not all that bad. Mean, nasty, ill-tempered, sure, but the world is full of such people, and you have to learn how to deal with them. It's true that among many of the unpleasant characters there are degrees of nastiness (Voldemort is evil personified, Umbridge employs physical torture, Snape psychologically torments but doesn't go so far as to use corporal punishment.) I don't think, though, his behavior can be excused simply because he isn't as bad as Umbridge or justified because the kids may someday encounter others like him. It's not as with an adult dealing with another adult - kids being bullied by an authority figure have fewer resources with which to approach those kinds of abusive situations. And can't life lessons of that sort just as easily be learned from peers (as with Harry's exposure to people like Draco)?

Many times they get to be one's boss, but I digress ... Yeah, I worked for an Umbridge-wannabe myself once, so I can sympathize!

but that doesn't make it excusable to treat people that way, especially children in your care.Just to clarify, I didn't mean that post to justify Snape in any way. I just meant to give an alternative explanation as to why Snape mistreats Neville.
Compared to Umbridge, Snape is not all that bad. Mean, nasty, ill-tempered, sure, but the world is full of such people, and you have to learn how to deal with them. Many times they get to be one's boss, but I digress ... The thing is, I don't care how good or bad Snape looks in comparison to Umbridge. Snape is responsible for his own actions whether or not they are not as bad as Umbridge's actions. I don't like how Snape treats his pupils - I know that if I had been Snape's student, I would have been very intimidated and flustered by him no matter how Umbridge acted.

I should have said "Snape saw him as abysmal". Sorry.

I'm going to specualte here, being a firm believer in Snape being both obscure and self serving, with currently undeclared loyalties.

I've wondered, throughout the series, if a good part for his reasoning behind his abuse of Harry may have been about trying to control him. It could benefit Snape if, should Harry be able to seriously threaten Voldemort, Snape would have to an extent broken his spirit and made Harry susceptible to intimidation and control by him. I see his actions on his flight as less advice than Snape wanting to leave in a dominant position; making Harry understand that one, he had better not try to act against him and two, that he could take him to task at any time if he wished. Control.

Similarly I've wondered if he thought that Neville, having been the other potential chosen one, may have also become powerful. Therefore, he wanted to be certain, since Neville had less 'direct protection' (Dumbledore) than Harry, that he never became capable of threatening his, Snape's interests.

If so, had his tactics worked- had Harry proven less strong and had Neville not had support from others- Snape would have been guaranteed that whatever choice he eventually made, he could have powerful influence on the winning side through either value (to Voldemort) or control (over Harry).

Compared to Umbridge, Snape is not all that bad. Mean, nasty, ill-tempered, sure, but the world is full of such people, and you have to learn how to deal with them. Many times they get to be one's boss, but I digress ...It's hardly a ringing endorsement of Snape that he isn't as awful as Umbridge. She was a horror. And I really don't buy the life lesson excuse. Students don't need to have their spirits crushed before they have a chance to mature and become confident by developing their talents and strengths. There are certainly plenty of nasty types in the world. But they don't need to face them until they are strong enough to deal with them.

It's hardly a ringing endorsement of Snape that he isn't as awful as Umbridge. She was a horror. And I really don't buy the life lesson excuse. Students don't need to have their spirits crushed before they have a chance to mature and become confident by developing their talents and strengths. There are certainly plenty of nasty types in the world. But they don't need to face them until they are strong enough to deal with them.

So we disagree. :shrug:

[removed by staff - snarky]


My point is that there are a great many harsh realities in the books. Alcoholism, hints of child abuse, bullying of course, cliques, social outcasts, disparagement of nerds, and so on. I do not mean to suggest that Snape's treatment of his students is something to applaud or commend, but that Life is full of such people, and - as the fake Moody mentioned in GoF to the DADA class - Dumbledore believes the kids are tough enough to face reality.

In response to Hinoema's post:
I tried to find some canon to back me up on this, but I can't think of anything, it's just the impression I get. But I don't see Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville (and other students) as calculated so much as it's built into his personality. That's how Snape treats people who he hates and/or are exhasperating to him. But as I said, this is just my opinion.

I've wondered, throughout the series, if a good part for his reasoning behind his abuse of Harry may have been about trying to control him. It could benefit Snape if, should Harry be able to seriously threaten Voldemort, Snape would have to an extent broken his spirit and made Harry susceptible to intimidation and control by him. I see his actions on his flight as less advice than Snape wanting to leave in a dominant position; making Harry understand that one, he had better not try to act against him and two, that he could take him to task at any time if he wished. Control.

That's a very interesting theory, but I'm not so sure. It seems to me that if he wanted to break Harry's spirit and control him that, rather than blatantly insulting him and immaturely using the Hogwarts point system, that he would go about it in a more Slytherin way. As a teacher he could have used his conniving influence to ostracize him from friends, teach him certain "Dark Magics" on the side, even get him dependent on some potion that only Snape can provide, you know--these are just silly examples, but my point is that if his purpose was control that he didn't go about it in a very effective or cunning way.

Though I do agree with you that his actions in his "flight" seem to be more about "dominance" and "don't mess with me" than truly teaching. But, I don't think that means this has been his goal throughout the series. Snape seems rather insecure about a lot of things, and he's proving himself against Harry. By that point he knew that he wasn't going to be able to "control" Harry in any way--as he mentions over and over again, Harry is far too much like his father for that.

That's a very interesting theory, but I'm not so sure. It seems to me that if he wanted to break Harry's spirit and control him that, rather than blatantly insulting him and immaturely using the Hogwarts point system, that he would go about it in a more Slytherin way. As a teacher he could have used his conniving influence to ostracize him from friends, teach him certain "Dark Magics" on the side, even get him dependent on some potion that only Snape can provide, you know--these are just silly examples, but my point is that if his purpose was control that he didn't go about it in a very effective or cunning way.

Well, such techniques would be extremely dangerous for him if Dumbledore found out. His bullying and abuse he can blame on hatred of James. Dumbledore gave him definite leeway in this out of sympathy, so it was a perfect cover.

Though I do agree with you that his actions in his "flight" seem to be more about "dominance" and "don't mess with me" than truly teaching. But, I don't think that means this has been his goal throughout the series. Snape seems rather insecure about a lot of things, and he's proving himself against Harry. By that point he knew that he wasn't going to be able to "control" Harry in any way--as he mentions over and over again, Harry is far too much like his father for that.

I understand. Just consider this- what if, when Snape first took Harry's measure, he decided that the best course of action for himself was to control him enough that, should he succeed in Vanquishing Voldemort, he would be no threat to Snape himself?

If you look at Snape's actions, you realize that everything he has done has been constrained by his need to strike a balance between each side- to take only actions that would equally appear to have been done out of loyalty to whichever side is examining them in retrospect.

I understand. Just consider this- what if, when Snape first took Harry's measure, he decided that the best course of action for himself was to control him enough that, should he succeed in Vanquishing Voldemort, he would be no threat to Snape himself?hmm...I could see that being his goal in the beginning. And, he does alter his treatment of Harry as he learns more about him--e.g. being honest and straightforward with him in occlumency training and accepting his "tip" when Umbridge was in the room. However, in the end, he certainly did not accomplish his goal. His behavior during the "flight" incensed Harry, and drove him to want nothing more than to kill Snape--as much or more than Voldemort himself. I think the "flight" was one of the few times in the series that Snape was out of control. He was broken and the chips hadn't fallen the way he wanted them to. He let his emotions rule him.

If you look at Snape's actions, you realize that everything he has done has been constrained by his need to strike a balance between each side- to take only actions that would equally appear to have been done out of loyalty to whichever side is examining them in retrospect.
I agree! His spying makes it completely impossible to know which way his loyalties lie. Is he a double agent? A triple agent? A free agent? That's what makes him such an amazing character! The need to strike a balance would be necessary for whichever direction he falls, so it's only those rare moments where the masks and walls are down that give us a glimpse to the truth...maybe :lol:

Snape is a Slytherin at heart and because of that I think he has indeed set himself up so that whoever wins in the end, he will not be on the chopping block. However, I don't believe this means that he doesn't have "true" loyalties, that he would not have a preference for who the winner should be! Snape wants recognition, class, respect. With Voldemort he'd only ever be a high powered and infamous lackey. With Harry, he might be able to salvage some glory and esteem, as he must know that he's not a leader in his own right. That's MHO on Snape!
:sigh: Have I mentioned that I love Snape :love: he is most definitely my favorite literary character of all time!

I think one side effect of Snape's open loathing and mistreatment of Harry is that the Slytherin kids (which includes the children of Death Eaters) will see him as the one teacher who not only doesn't fawn over "The Boy Who Lived" but is not afraid to show his dislike for him. In the long run, I think this benefitted Snape after Voldemort's return, since he could show that he had done his best to make life miserable for "The Chosen One" (even though it actually was to satisfy his own personal grudge.)

Have I mentioned that I love Snape he is most definitely my favorite literary character of all time! I'm afraid that this emoticon most accurately expresses my feelings about Snape: :grumble: but I do agree with you that he's a lot of fun to analyze! :)

I'm afraid that this emoticon most accurately expresses my feelings about Snape: :grumble: but I do agree with you that he's a lot of fun to analyze! :)
:lol: yay, I don't mean he's my favorite like 'oh I'd just love to be his friend and student' :td: absolutely not! I love him in a literary sense ;) I actually hope he dies at the end of DH :scared:

:lol: yay, I don't mean he's my favorite like 'oh I'd just love to be his friend and student' :td: absolutely not! I love him in a literary sense ;) I actually hope he dies at the end of DH :scared: Well, if it all pans out the way I suspect it will, you just may get your wish. ;)

Back to Snape's treatment of Harry - it now occurs to me that it's not merely Snape's own behavior, but his influence on the behavior of the students of his house that is also reprehensible. He sets the tone for abuse on the first day of class by holding up Harry as an example to ridicule.

Of course, there would have undoubtedly been some tension between Harry and the Slytherins due to house rivalry. However, had Snape treated him like any other student, I wonder if Harry would have had so many problems with the Slytherins and Draco in particular. Snape, by his example, taught the Slytherins how to treat Harry - badly.

Well, if it all pans out the way I suspect it will, you just may get your wish. ;)

Back to Snape's treatment of Harry - it now occurs to me that it's not merely Snape's own behavior, but his influence on the behavior of the students of his house that is also reprehensible. He sets the tone for abuse on the first day of class by holding up Harry as an example to ridicule.

Of course, there would have undoubtedly been some tension between Harry and the Slytherins due to house rivalry. However, had Snape treated him like any other student, I wonder if Harry would have had so many problems with the Slytherins and Draco in particular. Snape, by his example, taught the Slytherins how to treat Harry - badly.
I noticed that too OMGzilla, the way that he's acted throughout the series has not been a good one. He's been cruel and sadistic since day 1 towards not only Harry, but his friends - Neville included.

Back to Snape's treatment of Harry - it now occurs to me that it's not merely Snape's own behavior, but his influence on the behavior of the students of his house that is also reprehensible. He sets the tone for abuse on the first day of class by holding up Harry as an example to ridicule.
In PoA he tries to poison Trevor as entertainment for the Slytherins too. Snape knew Neville's potion had gone wrong, and was surprised and disappointed when it worked after all and Trevor simply turned into a tadpole. In my current rereading of the first three books I've paid particular attention to the things that have been debated here, especially Snape's behaviour during lessons. Not Harry's interpretation of Snape's behaviour, but what he actually does and says. Snape is a cruel bully. He also goes out of his way to save Harry's life, though, so he's a real paradox. But there can be no doubt that he hates Harry and treats him very unfairly.

In PoA he tries to poison Trevor as entertainment for the Slytherins too. Snape knew Neville's potion had gone wrong, and was surprised and disappointed when it worked after all and Trevor simply turned into a tadpole. In my current rereading of the first three books I've paid particular attention to the things that have been debated here, especially Snape's behaviour during lessons. Not Harry's interpretation of Snape's behaviour, but what he actually does and says. Snape is a cruel bully. He also goes out of his way to save Harry's life, though, so he's a real paradox. But there can be no doubt that he hates Harry and treats him very unfairly.

Maybe Severus is just not a "frog" person? :lol:

Seriously, I find it odd that you mention taking the pains to note what Snape has said, and compared it to what he has actually done. Because while it is -abundantly - clear that Severus Snape is not fond of children, teaching, or any of the many fine hair-care products available these days, it seems to me obvious that he has boundaries, places he does not go, things he does not say, and things he will not do. The most obvious example is trying to get Harry expelled. Severus says that he tried to get Harry expelled, and he taunts the kids with that threat, but in actual fact he never really makes a real effort to do so, most notably in HBP where Harry commits an act against Draco which may fairly be called attemped murder, or at least severe assault, surely grounds for harsh punishment, and what does Severus do?

:huh: :huh: :huh: Index card highlighting and sorting. :huh: :huh: :huh:

Telling, I think, and not that Severus is writing the initials "H.P." and drawing little hearts around them. Concrete is more transparent and yielding, on the surface, than our notorious Potions master .

Seriously, I find it odd that you mention taking the pains to note what Snape has said, and compared it to what he has actually done. Because while it is -abundantly - clear that Severus Snape is not fond of children, teaching, or any of the many fine hair-care products available these days, it seems to me obvious that he has boundaries, places he does not go, things he does not say, and things he will not do. The most obvious example is trying to get Harry expelled. Severus says that he tried to get Harry expelled, and he taunts the kids with that threat, but in actual fact he never really makes a real effort to do so, most notably in HBP where Harry commits an act against Draco which may fairly be called attemped murder, or at least severe assault, surely grounds for harsh punishment, and what does Severus do?

:huh: :huh: :huh: Index card highlighting and sorting. :huh: :huh: :huh:

Telling, I think, and not that Severus is writing the initials "H.P." and drawing little hearts around them. Concrete is more transparent and yielding, on the surface, than our notorious Potions master .

That example would be convincing to me except for one thing - Snape himself also shares some of the culpability for Draco's injuries, at least indirectly. If he had tried to get Harry expelled, I think the truth about the Potions book would have come out, which is something I'm sure Snape wanted to avoid. So I think it was Snape's efforts to cover up his own involvement that really saved Harry, rather than a sudden lack of interest on Snape's part to expel him.

I agree that the punishment was pretty light, considering Harry could have killed another student. I think it's interesting (and ironic) how the point of the punishment was to direct Harry's attention to the misdeeds of James and his friends when the source of Harry's punishment can actually be traced back to a misdeed of Snape's - namely, inventing a dark spell capable of killing someone.

I agree that the punishment was pretty light, considering Harry could have killed another student. I think it's interesting (and ironic) how the point of the punishment was to direct Harry's attention to the misdeeds of James and his friends when the source of Harry's punishment can actually be traced back to a misdeed of Snape's - namely, inventing a dark spell capable of killing someone.

Is inventing the spell is a "misdeed" initself? That is another debate, I guess. (Is the gunmaker guilty of the deaths of every man shot down?) By that time in the book Harry had learned plenty of spells that could torture, maim, and kill someone. If Harry had used any of those, he would be no less culpable. Sectumsempra was only different in that Harry didn't know exactly what it would do but- it was clearely labelled as "for enemies." The result was unintentional but there was malice behind it or why wouldn't Harry use "Protego" or any other defensive spell?

Snape is not culpable per se, as it was Harry's decision to use it and I don't think Snape would be percieved as "guilty" just for inventing the spell he did heal Draco and tell the staff "exactly" what happened (with Myrtle as witness.) Snape did not need to hide the spell or the face that he invented it but maybe Snape still felt responsible.

Snape seems to show personal responsibility for Harry's punishment by keeping Harry in his office for detention, eviseing the punishment, and kept an eye on Harry and kept Harry away from Draco.

Seriously, I find it odd that you mention taking the pains to note what Snape has said, and compared it to what he has actually done.
I have been paying attention to what he actually does, as did Anabel. And he has done things that also show how miserable a person he is, like spitefully dropping Harry's potion or attempting to poison Trevor. And the measure of a person can be taken in his words and leadership. He does demean students and publicly humiliate him. Saying that he shouldn't be a teacher kind of skirts the fact that he is a teacher and behaves abominably.

For all we know, Harry only got detention and no worse punishment for injuring Draco because Dumbledore intervened. Although it might have been quite embarrassing for that potions book to come to light.

I really don't think that posts defending Snape's worst behavior or excusing him because he isn't as bad as Umbridge are what this thread was set up for. We aren't allowed to go to the hero thread and criticize Snape. This is the thread where we can criticize Snape without having to argue about what a nice guy he really is underneath.

I also think that suggesting to Dumbledore in front of Harry that Harry be expelled was wrong even if Snape did not take further action to try to get Harry expelled. That kind of discussion should have taken place away from Harry's hearing, and it really scared Harry at the time.

Is inventing the spell is a "misdeed" initself? That is another debate, I guess. (Is the gunmaker guilty of the deaths of every man shot down?) By that time in the book Harry had learned plenty of spells that could torture, maim, and kill someone. If Harry had used any of those, he would be no less culpable. Sectumsempra was only different in that Harry didn't know exactly what it would do but- it was clearely labelled as "for enemies." The result was unintentional but there was malice behind it or why wouldn't Harry use "Protego" or any other defensive spell?

Snape is not culpable per se, as it was Harry's decision to use it and I don't think Snape would be percieved as "guilty" just for inventing the spell he did heal Draco and tell the staff "exactly" what happened (with Myrtle as witness.) Snape did not need to hide the spell or the face that he invented it but maybe Snape still felt responsible.

Snape seems to show personal responsibility for Harry's punishment by keeping Harry in his office for detention, eviseing the punishment, and kept an eye on Harry and kept Harry away from Draco.I notice that you also post in the Hero thread. I think we are supposed to pick one thread and stay in it. :) Otherwise I'd be posting in the Hero thread since I don't think Snape is evil. :evil:

(Has avoided posting in Snape threads b/c of how sticky an issue it is until now)

I think that Snape is an even better example than 'Dung of the type of "deal" that DD had to make to try to defeat LV. Snape is a fairly loathesome person at his core. This may be a product of his upbringing, but he plays favorites with the best of them. He's absolutely horrible to all Gryffindors, to the point where it's a minor miracle that Gryffindor has any points at all. He tortures Harry to the extreme of his abilities; yet in the end, he does protect (or attempt to protect) Harry.

I think that since DD protected Snape, Snape is loyal to DD. Perhaps the only things that are "evil" that he's done that have truly pained him involve him having to kill DD. I don't think he regretted Harry feeling bad in occlumancy, or any of the put-downs administered to Harry in class.

Some of the best evidence I think we see for Snape being loyal to DD involve the Sectumsempra episode and showing the Dark Mark to Fudge. In the Sectumsempra episode he could have pushed for expulsion, and it would have forced DD to explain why he didn't want Harry kicked out. Yet, he doesn't do so (that we can see) - my conclusion is that he knew DD wanted Harry to stay, so he preemptively gave only detention, knowing that McGonagall and DD would both abide by his punishment.
For the Dark Mark - I see no reason why he had to show Fudge the Dark Mark, other than that it aided DD's case dramatically.

Is inventing the spell is a "misdeed" initself? That is another debate, I guess. (Is the gunmaker guilty of the deaths of every man shot down?) By that time in the book Harry had learned plenty of spells that could torture, maim, and kill someone. If Harry had used any of those, he would be no less culpable. Sectumsempra was only different in that Harry didn't know exactly what it would do but- it was clearely labelled as "for enemies." The result was unintentional but there was malice behind it or why wouldn't Harry use "Protego" or any other defensive spell?

Snape is not culpable per se, as it was Harry's decision to use it and I don't think Snape would be percieved as "guilty" just for inventing the spell he did heal Draco and tell the staff "exactly" what happened (with Myrtle as witness.) Snape did not need to hide the spell or the face that he invented it but maybe Snape still felt responsible.

Sectumsempra was clearly intended to be used as a weapon, and it was weapon unknown to anyone, which presumably included Snape's teachers. If the Muggle equivalent would be a student building and concealing a weapon at his boarding school unsupervised and unbeknownst to the faculty (as Snape did with Sectumsempra), then I think what he did could safely be called a "misdeed". It wasn't a homework project nor was he a graduate working for a business or the government.

Quote from Daelin:
Seriously, I find it odd that you mention taking the pains to note what Snape has said, and compared it to what he has actually done. Because while it is -abundantly - clear that Severus Snape is not fond of children, teaching, or any of the many fine hair-care products available these days, it seems to me obvious that he has boundaries, places he does not go, things he does not say, and things he will not do. The most obvious example is trying to get Harry expelled. Severus says that he tried to get Harry expelled, and he taunts the kids with that threat, but in actual fact he never really makes a real effort to do so, most notably in HBP where Harry commits an act against Draco which may fairly be called attemped murder, or at least severe assault, surely grounds for harsh punishment, and what does Severus do?

Jumping in here...is this really a good method for dealing with a pupil?

It reduces Snape to someone that can "talk the talk but can't walk the walk." What more I'd say that's it affected Harry's view of Snape...Snape, in Harry's eyes, is someone that makes threats needlessly and then can't/won't back them up when then time comes. This may be fine if Snape was only Harry's teacher but given how entangled they is it really...a good thing...to have Harry think that Snape is a blowhard.

Quote from chparadise:
For the Dark Mark - I see no reason why he had to show Fudge the Dark Mark, other than that it aided DD's case dramatically.

I'm agreeing with you that this is a sign of Snape "goodness" but really does it accomplish anything? Fudge doesn't seem to believe it and if anything it pushes him further from Dumbledore. How effective as a spy can Snape be if he mis-judged what Fudge's reaction would be?

I'm agreeing with you that this is a sign of Snape "goodness" but really does it accomplish anything? Fudge doesn't seem to believe it and if anything it pushes him further from Dumbledore. How effective as a spy can Snape be if he mis-judged what Fudge's reaction would be?
I don't think that the misjudgement of Fudge is a sign of Snape being a bad spy. After all he fooled either Dumbledore or Voldemort (or both) and I guess we can forgive him the little lapsus of not foreseeing Fudges reaction (after all, Fudge was a disappointment to many) :)

Despite of all his flaws which he has (his treatment of Neville, Hermione, Harry; his incapacity of letting to a teenage grudge, etc) I think he's an excellent spy and a superb occlumens (to quote Remus).
Now, who did he fool? As said, either Dumbledore or Voldemort, and as both are excellent legilimenses, this is quite an achievement :p

Seriously, I find it odd that you mention taking the pains to note what Snape has said, and compared it to what he has actually done.
You misunderstand me. I was looking at what he has said and done as opposed to what some people claim Harry thinks Snape does.That example would be convincing to me except for one thing - Snape himself also shares some of the culpability for Draco's injuries, at least indirectly. If he had tried to get Harry expelled, I think the truth about the Potions book would have come out, which is something I'm sure Snape wanted to avoid. So I think it was Snape's efforts to cover up his own involvement that really saved Harry, rather than a sudden lack of interest on Snape's part to expel him.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Snape does not want this situation investigated, because it would come back to him. Just because Harry doesn't recognise Snape's handwriting in the book, doesn't mean other staff members won't. Snape invented a lethal spell, then left his book lying around where it could fall into the hands of students. I can quite understand why his passion for getting Harry expelled was somewhat subdued on this occasion.Is inventing the spell is a "misdeed" initself? That is another debate, I guess. (Is the gunmaker guilty of the deaths of every man shot down?) By that time in the book Harry had learned plenty of spells that could torture, maim, and kill someone. If Harry had used any of those, he would be no less culpable. Sectumsempra was only different in that Harry didn't know exactly what it would do but- it was clearely labelled as "for enemies." The result was unintentional but there was malice behind it or why wouldn't Harry use "Protego" or any other defensive spell?
Can you point out any other spells that "torture, maim, and kill"? Sectum Sempra seems to be in a class of it's own in that respect. The kids have plenty of spells they use "for enemies", jelly legs jinxes and hexes that bring the victim out in boils being the most common examples.

The kids have plenty of spells they use "for enemies", jelly legs jinxes and hexes that bring the victim out in boils being the most common examples.
You forgot the slugs and making eyebrows and toenails grow. :rotfl:

You forgot the slugs and making eyebrows and toenails grow.

And locking their legs together, forcing them to bunny hop back to the common room! Not to mention Tarantelagra! Oh the wickedness that goes on in that school! :wow:

For all we know, Harry only got detention and no worse punishment for injuring Draco because Dumbledore intervened. Although it might have been quite embarrassing for that potions book to come to light.

Considering that Snape assigned the detention immediately upon his return to Harry (well yes, he waited for Harry to bring back his textbook, but even so, Snape did not go anywhere that we hear about during his wait), I find unlikely in the extreme that Snape ever discussed the matter with Dumbledore, nor indeed ever intended any serious punishment for Harry. Especially since my point was, that Snape never actually tries to cause serious trouble for Harry. Harassment, yes, but never suspension or expulsion. The times he does bring up such a thing, are when he knows it cannot possibly happen, such as the incident with Fudge in PoA whom Snape knows has no intention of opposing Dumbledore (at that time). Snape's method has always been the light touch, the deduction of points, the detention, never anything permanent or damaging. Snape does seem keen on helping Slytherin win the Quidditch Cup, but that's a House thing. So on the whole, Snape's restraint is a key signal in how he operates and his personal sense of honor. Not that Snape's bullying of children really is honorable, but that he sees himself that way.


I really don't think that posts defending Snape's worst behavior or excusing him because he isn't as bad as Umbridge are what this thread was set up for. We aren't allowed to go to the hero thread and criticize Snape. This is the thread where we can criticize Snape without having to argue about what a nice guy he really is underneath.

No, if trashing Snape is all you want, then you should look for the 'Snape is Evil' thread. I disagree with your take here, because I am neither defending Snape's behavior as good, nor arguing he is a nice guy. I am trying to explore, as the title of this thread says, the "Obscure" Snape, the man who sometimes 'zigs' when you would expect him to 'zag', who is a defender of Harry, but who clearly resents Harry as well and would like to humiliate him, and indeed does so with relish. A man who thinks it amusing to trip up children and cause them to fail in public, but who has risked his life to protect them. A man full of wounded pride and cruelty, yet who believes himself superior in honor to many people. It's obvious, to me at least, that Severus Snape is essential to the resolution of the story in DH, and as such we should try to understand Snape's motives and unravel his conflicts, in order to look a little ahead through the fog surrounding this man.

Considering that Snape assigned the detention immediately upon his return to Harry (well yes, he waited for Harry to bring back his textbook, but even so, Snape did not go anywhere that we hear about during his wait), I find unlikely in the extreme that Snape ever discussed the matter with Dumbledore, nor indeed ever intended any serious punishment for Harry.

Well, I'm no sure about this. I agree that Snape didn't consult Dumbledore before assigning punishment to Harry, but I'd bet Dumbledore knew quite well that Harry had performed a spell which had caused great harm to Draco. We really don't know what conversation Dumbledore had with Minerva or Snape or both about the incident, but his lack of involvement in raising the issue with Harry himself leads me to believe the he felt assured that Snape and Minerva had handled the matter. Dumbledore's lack of involvement in something as serious as this also shows that he was quite busy with other, more pressing issues.

I am trying to explore, as the title of this thread says, the "Obscure" Snape, the man who sometimes 'zigs' when you would expect him to 'zag', who is a defender of Harry, but who clearly resents Harry as well and would like to humiliate him, and indeed does so with relish. A man who thinks it amusing to trip up children and cause them to fail in public, but who has risked his life to protect them. A man full of wounded pride and cruelty, yet who believes himself superior in honor to many people. It's obvious, to me at least, that Severus Snape is essential to the resolution of the story in DH, and as such we should try to understand Snape's motives and unravel his conflicts, in order to look a little ahead through the fog surrounding this man.

I agree with your take on Snape - he is vital to the story and, to me at least, he is both the hero and the villan.

I agree that Snape didn't consult Dumbledore before assigning punishment to Harry, but I'd bet Dumbledore knew quite well that Harry had performed a spell which had caused great harm to Draco.

But when did Dumbledore know this? If he did not know before Snape assigned the detention, then the detention was all Snape's idea, and thus is relevant to his state of mind.


to me at least, he is both the hero and the villan.

Or is simply conflicted. I tried to find a thread for "Snape the Undecided", but this is as close as I could find!:lol:

Or is simply conflicted. I tried to find a thread for "Snape the Undecided", but this is as close as I could find!

For the undecided: Is Snape good? If not, will he come back to the good side? v4 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=94450)

Thanks Madron, I made an attempt at a joke, which obviously missed the target, the backstop, and the barn behind it. The three threads to discuss Snape's personality and mindset allow Hero, Villain, and Obscure. This is the one for Obscure, as we know.

The first post of this thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=95324)reads as follows:

"You may think Snape is a working for the order, but still remains a nasty piece of poop! He's got a foul past that has made him all bitter and angry, but he hasn't lost sight of the greater picture and this thread is for you to discuss aspects of his character with this in mind, referencing all those pieces of information that point to him being the way he is"

I believe that my posts here are fully in line with that description and intent.

But all you do is defend and justify his worst behaviors. We've even been told that life is tough so he's doing them a favor. And that he isn't so bad since Umbridge is worse. Those are positions typically taken by someone who belongs in the hero thread. The people in this thread can trash Snape, as long as they don't think he's a villain.

Every post you've made challenges someone else's post and tries to defend Snape or justify his behaviors. This isn't the thread for defending Snape.

If you were actually trying to explore his motivations that would be fine, but I only see defense of Snape posts. We had too many of those before there were three Snape threads.

But when did Dumbledore know this? If he did not know before Snape assigned the detention, then the detention was all Snape's idea, and thus is relevant to his state of mind.

I agree! I think pulling Harry from the Quidditch team and sentencing him to such a punishment was Snape's idea and that Minerva concurred with the punishment. But something as bad as what happened between Harry and Draco had to have been brought to Dumbledore's attention. That Dumbledore chose not to intervene shows that he approved of the manner in which Snape and Minerva chose to handle the situation or that he didn't have the time to intervene and change it.

I also agree that the punishment says somethig about Snape's state of mind and his loyalties. Snape knew Harry had his book, but he couldn't prove it. Snape also knew that Harry had to be protected because Dumbledore would intervene if the punishment Snape doled out resulted in Harry leaving the school.

Yet again, his actions in responding to the situation can go both ways.

Is he evil because he intentionally chose a punishment which would force Harry to face the loss of Sirius and his parents over and over again or does forcing Harry to read about Sirius and his father's misdeeds while at school further Harry's resolve to defeat Voldemort? Does forcing Harry to face his loss deepen the wound caused by their deaths or does it, in some odd and totally brutal manner, force Harry to grieve and teach him how to distance himself from his pain?

Is he showing his loyalty to Dumbledore by not forcing him to dedicate time to preventing Harry from being expelled, or is he showing his loyalty to Voldemort by concealing the dark experiments he conducted in the past and remaining in his position to spy on Dumbledore and the Order? Would Dumbeldore have allowed Harry to be suspended or expelled? Did Snape intentionally choose to punish Harry with detention because he knew Dumbledore didn't have the time available to fight an expulsion or to construct adequate protection for Harry outside of school?

Is he hiding something by not disclosing where Harry learned the spell or is he protecting Harry from further punishment for his sudden, undeserved, potions brilliance? The book was something from his past, a past where Dumbeldore knew he'd aligned himself with the DE's and dabbled in the dark arts. What does Snape have to hide all these years later when he's had so many opportunities to kill Harry but hasn't done so and has faced great personal risk by turning spy against the Dark Lord?

Nothing Snape does is simple. He is neither purely good nor purely evil.

Or is simply conflicted. I tried to find a thread for "Snape the Undecided", but this is as close as I could find!:lol:

I tried to find the same thing and decided Snape the Obscure fit the bill!

I have said and agree that Snape bullies children, that he is arrogant, that he makes his decisions almost always on the question of how he can benefit. I don't think that counts as calling him a 'Hero'.

I have noted that Snape tries to penalize the other Houses and favor Slytherin, that he bullies the non-Slytherins, Gryffindors especially, and that Snape has never matured emotionally, as marked by his petty feud with Sirius Black and his antipathy against Remus Lupin. However, I als note that, as an example, Snape's well-known favoring of Slytherins makes his assigning detention to Crabbe and Goyle in HBP more important than it might otherwise seem, that Snape's constant protection of Harry must be considered in the background of his obvious loathing of Harry, and that Snape is a character who does not fit common labels. Snape does not wear a halo or carry a pitchfork, but he is a manipulator and a schemer. He is neither angel nor devil.

I would like to remind everyone that this is a thread about Severus Snape not about the other members who post in here. If we can't discuss Snape in a friendly polite manner I can kick some people out of this area and/or delete some posts.

Exploring a non-allegiance issue about Snape, do you think he lives in Spinner's End out of habit, a love of privacy, or something else?

I think it reflects his character, that even in his private thoughts he keeps things quiet and subdued. If he didn't wear black all the time, I'd see him as a man with five different suits, all gray, yet different in his opinion.

I don't think he cares much for creature comforts. And most likely this was his father's home based on the discussion between the twisted sisters (Narcissa and Bellatrix). He lives here?" asked Bella in a voice of contempt. "Here? In this Muggle dunghill? We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot--"That would seem to indicate that this was a muggle-only area.

BTW I think Snape is good, but I also think he is a miserable person who abuses his students and is so consumed with his hatred of James that he can't see how different Harry is (how much of Lily is in him too). His behavior is conflicted and contradictory. I even think he behaves heroically at times (especially in his role as a spy). But I cannot ever justify his treatment of Neville, in particular. And I don't see an upside to most of his nastiness. He deserves the hatred Harry has felt for him since he has made Harry and his friend's lives miserable. And this was before Harry watched Snape kill Dumbledore.

BTW I think Snape is good, but I also think he is a miserable person who abuses his students and is so consumed with his hatred of James that he can't see how different Harry is

That's an interesting observation. :tu: I have seen Snape as a man who analyzes everything he sees and hears, weighing everything before extending a response. The exception is Harry, where Snape reacts almost spontaneously, and without serious thought at times.

I don't think he cares much for creature comforts. And most likely this was his father's home based on the discussion between the twisted sisters (Narcissa and Bellatrix). He lives here?" asked Bella in a voice of contempt. "Here? In this Muggle dunghill? We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot--"That would seem to indicate that this was a muggle-only area.

BTW I think Snape is good, but I also think he is a miserable person who abuses his students and is so consumed with his hatred of James that he can't see how different Harry is (how much of Lily is in him too). His behavior is conflicted and contradictory. I even think he behaves heroically at times (especially in his role as a spy). But I cannot ever justify his treatment of Neville, in particular. And I don't see an upside to most of his nastiness. He deserves the hatred Harry has felt for him since he has made Harry and his friend's lives miserable. And this was before Harry watched Snape kill Dumbledore.

I think you got the handle on Snape here, IMO. He's a very complex character, and he's quite polarizing. It's amazing to me that Snape can make things so personal, yet he can stand in the presence of LV and employ sufficient occlumancy to be able to conceal that he's (IMO) still DD's man. It helps that Snape is supposed to act the part, but I still think he's on DD's side, in the end. I guess DD was right (probably paraphrasing here) - some wounds run too deep.

I can't help but wonder what it was which motivated Snape to turn spy against Voldemort and the DE's?

I can't help but wonder what it was which motivated Snape to turn spy against Voldemort and the DE's?

He lost a bet with Dumbledore?:p

Some of the best evidence I think we see for Snape being loyal to DD involve the Sectumsempra episode and showing the Dark Mark to Fudge. In the Sectumsempra episode he could have pushed for expulsion, and it would have forced DD to explain why he didn't want Harry kicked out. Yet, he doesn't do so (that we can see) - my conclusion is that he knew DD wanted Harry to stay, so he preemptively gave only detention, knowing that McGonagall and DD would both abide by his punishment. For the Dark Mark - I see no reason why he had to show Fudge the Dark Mark, other than that it aided DD's case dramatically. Adding to that, (assuming Snape is good), he has been spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore at risk of his life. That's definite loyalty.
Another specific example is after Sirius Black escaped in PoA, Snape stopped going nuts about it when Dumbledore hinted to him that he was behind the escape.

I have seen Snape as a man who analyzes everything he sees and hears, weighing everything before extending a response. The exception is Harry, where Snape reacts almost spontaneously, and without serious thought at times. It's not just Harry. Snape's response to Hermione's overlong teeth for instance, and his treatment of Trevor the toad don't seem to be overthought.

I do agree however, that Snape singles Harry out quite a bit more than others, and I think that it's connected to James in two ways.
1)He cannot separate Harry's character from James' character (Harry would NEVER hurt a fellow student intentionally the way that James did to Snape).
2) In the instances where Snape loses complete control, i.e., his reaction to Harry seeing SWM, Sirius Black's escape etc, I think that he is ashamed and afraid about what Harry will find out about his school days, and wants to keep that from happening at all costs. Whether or not it goes beyond the type of thing we saw in SWM, or not, I have no idea.

I can't help but wonder what it was which motivated Snape to turn spy against Voldemort and the DE's?Although your guess is as good as mine, I would like it if something happened that made Snape realize that killing people is wrong, and that Voldemort is by extension, evil. But it could be somehting more technical - we don't really know.

I have my Master theory of Snape, not being complete Hero or completely Villain. He definitely doesn't have the warmest personality, but that doesn't necessarily brand him as evil. But because he isn't necessarily branded as evil doesn't make him good either. I think he is a VERY gray character. He is weak. LET ME EXPLAINE (hides from Snape fans with their torches and pitchforks). He takes the safe way out-playing for whichever side will protect him the most at the moment. So yes, he is a spy for the Order. But only when it suites him. He is just trying to get through this war alive without taking a definite stand and thereby risking little with maximum security. All we readers have to do now is wait and see if he does what is easy or what is right.

NOTE: This is my Master theory. I am completely openminded to other theories or modifications to my theory. If you wish to discuss more just owl :)

I have my Master theory of Snape, not being complete Hero or completely Villain. He definitely doesn't have the warmest personality, but that doesn't necessarily brand him as evil. But because he isn't necessarily branded as evil doesn't make him good either. I think he is a VERY gray character. He is weak. LET ME EXPLAINE (hides from Snape fans with their torches and pitchforks). He takes the safe way out-playing for whichever side will protect him the most at the moment. So yes, he is a spy for the Order. But only when it suites him. He is just trying to get through this war alive without taking a definite stand and thereby risking little with maximum security. All we readers have to do now is wait and see if he does what is easy or what is right.

NOTE: This is my Master theory. I am completely openminded to other theories or modifications to my theory. If you wish to discuss more just owl :)


I'm sure Snape's well aware of the risks of playing both sides of the fence, especially when one side of the fence would kill him in an instant if it's revealed that he was truly loyal to DD. I think that Pettigrew was the one who went for the strongest side at any given time - Snape seemed to be able to take more risks. His reaction to being called coward is definately a difficulty in my take and a nice asset for your take - since a truly strong-minded person would probably not react viciously to being called a coward. But, maybe, the explanation lies in the treatment of Snape by the Marauders.
I think that it's a good take - don't get me wrong - I just think that Snape's not weak, but strong :).

I can't help but wonder what it was which motivated Snape to turn spy against Voldemort and the DE's?
Well, in this thread this is probably the most intriguing question, as we sort of place him on the good side, but accepting him as a 'nasty piece of poop' :lol: So we do here try to find a reason for a really nasty person to chose to fight for the good side. Which is for me personally much more intriguing than assuming that Snape is a pure 'Hero' because that doesn't leave much room for speculation or surprises. :)

My guess is on something with the life dept with James, or as Rell says, something more technical.


He is weak. LET ME EXPLAINE (hides from Snape fans with their torches and pitchforks). He takes the safe way out-playing for whichever side will protect him the most at the moment. So yes, he is a spy for the Order. But only when it suites him.
Hehe, no problem, I don't think that here are many people who would get the pitchforks :p
It's an interesting theory, and maybe even possible, as he actually says to Bellatrix that this is precisly what he did when Voldemort disappeared first. My problem is with the second Voldywar. I don't think it's the safest thing to be spying for Dumbledore right now, as any moment he can be discovered, which would lead to immediate Avada Kedavra.
And also that I think that if he is always on the side where the sun is warmer, on which side is he now? After all, he did kill Dumbledore.

I'm just not sure. The timeline is so squishy!

We know that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prophest and we were told by Dumbledore that he only heard part of it before he was discovered and thrown out of the Hogs Head. Yet Trelawney says Snape was found listening at the door during her interview to gather tips on interviewing. Trelawney would only have known Sanpe was there if she saw him with her own eyes after coming out of the trance.

So did he heard the entire prophesy or not?

When he heard the prophesy was he already working for Dumbledore or was he still working for Voldemort?

Did he overhear all or a portion of the prophesy or was he called to the Hogs Head by Dumbledore, told a portion of it, and then ordered to report what he'd "overheard" to Voldemort?

Was he sent by Voldemort of obtain a position at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore or was he offered the position by Dumbledore to maintain his cover?

All of this is vital because it tells us to whom Snape is most loyal.

If he was sent by Voldmeort to obtain a position at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore and really did overhear just a portion of the prophesy, which he prompty reported to Voldmeort, then you have to wonder why Dumbledore let him leave and what event caused him to turn his back on Voldemort.

What if he'd already turned against Voldemort and Dumbledore "gave" him the potions position to maintain his cover. What if he didn't overhear the prophesy, but was summoned by Dumbledore to the Hog Head and told only a portion of it and then sent back to report it to Voldemort.

Both scenarios depict Dumbledore is a less than admirable light - either he let Snape escape to report the prophesy to Voldemort or he set the wheels in motion for the murder of Harry's parents.

Did he overhear all or a portion of the prophesy or was he called to the Hogs Head by Dumbledore, told a portion of it, and then ordered to report what he'd "overheard" to Voldemort?
If that was the case, there was no need for young Snape to have a scuffle outside the door and then burst through it, as Trelawney described. If Trelawney hadn't actually seen Snape, it might be plausible that Dumbledore simply reported the Prophecy to him, but we know he really was listening at the door.What if he'd already turned against Voldemort and Dumbledore "gave" him the potions position to maintain his cover.
I do think Dumbledore gave Snape the job to keep him safe from Voldemort and provide cover for his spying. It's apparent that both Dumbledore and Voldemort thought Snape was working for them and spying on the other side. The questions is, which of them was mistaken.

I'm sure Snape's well aware of the risks of playing both sides of the fence, especially when one side of the fence would kill him in an instant if it's revealed that he was truly loyal to DD. I think that Pettigrew was the one who went for the strongest side at any given time - Snape seemed to be able to take more risks. His reaction to being called coward is definately a difficulty in my take and a nice asset for your take - since a truly strong-minded person would probably not react viciously to being called a coward. But, maybe, the explanation lies in the treatment of Snape by the Marauders.
I think that it's a good take - don't get me wrong - I just think that Snape's not weak, but strong :).


That's definitely a good way of thinking of it. You very well could be right! I think that BOTH Pettigrew and Snape go for the stronger side-but the similarities end there. Snape is just smarter and can play the game better, where as Pettigrew is hanging on for dear life. Not that anyone would mind his going, of course :tu: . The explanation for his treatment by the Marauders could definitely contribute to his reaction. Who know, he might be very stong, but that could be his tick. (I don't mean the gross little Arachnid). Being called a coward might just be what sets him off-it reminds him about how he was treated and how he reacted and he just gets defensive about it. Which is a weakness, a momentary slip in his strength.

I love discussions :p

It's an interesting theory, and maybe even possible, as he actually says to Bellatrix that this is precisly what he did when Voldemort disappeared first. My problem is with the second Voldywar. I don't think it's the safest thing to be spying for Dumbledore right now, as any moment he can be discovered, which would lead to immediate Avada Kedavra.
And also that I think that if he is always on the side where the sun is warmer, on which side is he now? After all, he did kill Dumbledore.

And obviously he wasn't spying for good ol' Dumby at the moment, seeing as he killed him.....unless I'm not tracking with what you're saying? Apparently the sun was warmer for him with Voldy right then. But unfortunately for him killing DD has taken some of the cards out of his hand. He has to be with Voldemort now, whether or not he pulls some act of heroism at the end is yet to be seen. Or he was always bad, either one.

I do think Dumbledore gave Snape the job to keep him safe from Voldemort and provide cover for his spying. I agree with this. There's no other reason for Snape to be a teacher, as teaching is clearly not a fit job for him. It's also probably why he was never allowed to teach DADA.

If that was the case, there was no need for young Snape to have a scuffle outside the door and then burst through it, as Trelawney described. If Trelawney hadn't actually seen Snape, it might be plausible that Dumbledore simply reported the Prophecy to him, but we know he really was listening at the door.

We know from Trelawney that he was listening at the door. Dumbleodre could have modified her memory to make her thing Snape had been listening at the door. Otherwise, why the difference between what Dumbledore has told Harry and what Trelawney reported?

I do think Dumbledore gave Snape the job to keep him safe from Voldemort and provide cover for his spying. It's apparent that both Dumbledore and Voldemort thought Snape was working for them and spying on the other side. The questions is, which of them was mistaken.

And which came first - spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore and acquiring the potions master position to maintian cover and determine who was spying on the Order and reporting the Potter's movements to Voldemort, or, spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort and obtaining the position as a ruse so that he could ingratiate himself with Dumbledore and report everything he heard back to Voldemort.

I'm actually pretty sure Voldemort knows Snape has to disclose information about his plans and movements to Dumbledore and Dumbledore knows Snape has to disclose informationabout his plans and movements to Voldemort. Otherwise it would be impossible for him to maintain cover. Its one of the more complex elements of a double / triple agent. You know he's going to report anything he learns about you to your enemy and your enemy knows he's going report anything he learns about them back to you. You have to figure out how to use that to your advantage.

I agree with this. There's no other reason for Snape to be a teacher, as teaching is clearly not a fit job for him. It's also probably why he was never allowed to teach DADA.

Is my interpritation of the second sentance correct, in that what I think you're saying is that since DD knew about the curse, he didn't give the post to Snape, because he wanted to continue protecting Snape?

Is my interpritation of the second sentance correct, in that what I think you're saying is that since DD knew about the curse, he didn't give the post to Snape, because he wanted to continue protecting Snape?
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Here's how I see it:
Snape hates teaching (and I don't see anything that might suggest that he likes teaching), and wants to quit - do he applies for the DADA job. Dumbledore wants to protect him, so he doesn't give him the job.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Here's how I see it:
Snape hates teaching (and I don't see anything that might suggest that he likes teaching), and wants to quit - do he applies for the DADA job. Dumbledore wants to protect him, so he doesn't give him the job.

I hadn't made the connection that Snape knew it'd cost him his job, because of the curse. But that's a fine thinking point...the thought I'd had originally on this was that Snape figured that LV would release the curse. Then again, in vapormort form, he'd have a job releasing the curse...the more I think about it, the more I think that Snape's continued pursuit of the DADA job is quite curious, since he almost had to be aware of the curse.
And, yup, I think that Snape didn't enjoy teaching - the antisocial type in charge of a bunch of youngsters? :lol:

I'm not so sure about Snape disliking teaching. Clearly he isn't an exceptional teacher, nor is he one in whom you'd develop a close relationship, but at some level he may enjoy the power he has over the students. He also doesn't appear to have much money or connections in the wizarding world in general. His career options are probably somewhat limited - he became a DE shortly after leaving school so I'm not sure a position at the ministry would hold appeal and I just don't see Snape opening a potions shop.

As a teacher he has tremendous power and control over the students, and other than his poor treatment of Harry and Neville (and Hermione) his students do actually learn from him. Slughorn's advanced potions class has 4 Slytherin's, 4 Ravenclaw's, a Hufflepuff, and 3 Gryffindor's in it. All of whom, with the exception of Harry and Ron, received top marks on their potions OWL.

I think he wants the DADA position becase he loves the Dark Arts and would like nothing more than to imerse himself in them under the guise of teaching.

I hear what you're saying monster_mom, but I feel like if Snape enjoyed teaching, even if only because of his power over the students, I think we'd see some evidence of that. I think he is decidedly throughout the whole books.

Although I think that Snape is a rude person, and that he bullies his students, I don't think it's more out of impatience, a very low tolerance for frustration and anger over his childhood rather than a twisted source of enjoyment. It's not to say that I excuse Snape his behavior, because he ought to be mature enough to treat people in a civil manner, despite the problems he has with his job.

I also think that someone who gets that kind of enjoyment out of someone else's pain would probably not have left Voldemort's employ or been able to convince Dumbledore that he had reformed.

Although I think that Snape is a rude person, and that he bullies his students, I don't think it's more out of impatience, a very low tolerance for frustration and anger over his childhood rather than a twisted source of enjoyment. It's not to say that I excuse Snape his behavior, because he ought to be mature enough to treat people in a civil manner, despite the problems he has with his job.

I also think that someone who gets that kind of enjoyment out of someone else's pain would probably not have left Voldemort's employ or been able to convince Dumbledore that he had reformed.
The only time I can think of where Snape may have shown a hint of enjoyment while in "teacher mode" was on Harry's first day: he praised Draco for his perfectly brewed slugs. Though I'm not sure if that was really a moment of professional satisfaction in seeing a student do it right or if he chose to compliment Draco out of a number of students who had performed correctly, simply because he was a Slytherin.

Though I tend to think that many of Snape's worst interactions with his students are largely due to his impatience, he also occasionally shows his enjoyment of abusing them, as in OotP when Harry's Invigoration Draught was smashed. Snape gave Harry "a look of gloating pleasure" and I think we are to assume Snape was the one who did it. Even if he wasn't responsible for smashing it, he was clearly enjoying Harry's helpless rage.

I was wondering about soemthing, and would like to hear from the rest of you about whether the following might be a way to sort out Severus Snape in better context.

It seems to me that we may divide Snape into seven chronological sections, each influenced in different ways from its predecessors and successors. These seven times would be:

I. Severus Snape the child;
II. Severus Snape the Hogwarts student;
III. Severus Snape the Death Eater Part I;
IV. Severus Snape after the "return" to Dumbledore, but prior to the attack at Godric's Hollow;
V. Severus Snape between the attack at Godric's Hollow to the arrival of Harry Potter at Hogwarts;
VI. Severus Snape during the Harry-Potter-at-Hogwarts years, prior to Voldemort's bodification at the end of GoF;
VII. Severus Snape subsequent to Voldemort's rebodification.

D'you think these partitions might be useful?

If he was sent by Voldmeort to obtain a position at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore and really did overhear just a portion of the prophesy, which he prompty reported to Voldmeort, then you have to wonder why Dumbledore let him leave and what event caused him to turn his back on Voldemort.
Snape likely wasn´t a known DE at that time. If he had been a known DE, applying for a teaching job at Hogwarts would have been a moot point. Therefore I think Dumbledore did not suspect anything when Snape got caught listening in. He couldn´t know how much if anything Snape had heard anyway. I guess Snape was sent by LV to apply for a teaching post in order to spy on DD for LV. Snape returned to LV and reported the first part of the prophecy to him (the question whether Snape initially heard the whole prophecy and which reasons he could have had to leave out a pivotal part aside). As soon as Snape realized who LV was going after, he felt remorse and went to Dumbledore to confess and warn him about LV going after the Potters. Most likely he confessed as well that he was initially supposed to spy on him. Dumbledore then gave him the post to cover up.


I hadn't made the connection that Snape knew it'd cost him his job, because of the curse. I´m not sure he 'knew'. It was more or less a rumour. Hagrid mentioned something like that in CoS. But it could not have escaped Snape´s attention that all the DADA teachers only stayed for a year. Leaves still the question why he wanted the job so desperately. Unless, he just pretended to want the job so desperated. Weaving as much mystery around him as possible.

Daelin, I think those chronological sections are pretty accurate, although I personally would combine IV and V to one section. Snape 'returning' to DD and the night of GH would be too close together in time. As to sections I - now IV, we have only very little information. We can say most about Snape during Harry´s Hogwarts years.

I. Severus Snape the child;
Well, we don't know much about this, except that his mum was a witch and his dad a muggle, and that he witnessed at least one discussion between his parents, that he liked to kill flies when bored and that he was not a good flier.

II. Severus Snape the Hogwarts student;
We know he had a feud with James and Sirius, that he was good in potions and DADA, that he didn't miss an opportunity to hex James, that he got hexed by James, and that he at least once got turned upside down by James and Co and defended by Lily. We also know that he knew more dark spells than most other students, and that he had some sort of friendship with other Slytherins who became DE later.

III. Severus Snape the Death Eater Part I;He willingly joined the DE, was loyal to Voldemort, spied on his order on Dumbledore/Trelawney and reported the overheard part of the prophecy to Voldemort.

IV. Severus Snape after the "return" to Dumbledore, but prior to the attack at Godric's Hollow;
According to Dumbledore, it was when he realised who were going to be targetted by Voldemort after the prophecy, is when he felt deep remorse and turned to Dumbledore. We don't know what he did then under Dumbledores order. He started as a teacher in Hogwarts.


V. Severus Snape between the attack at Godric's Hollow to the arrival of Harry Potter at Hogwarts;No interesting information at all. Was full time employed Potions Master in Hogwarts. Treated unfairly the students except Slytherins. Becomes Head of Slytherin.
VI. Severus Snape during the Harry-Potter-at-Hogwarts years, prior to Voldemort's bodification at the end of GoF;
VII. Severus Snape subsequent to Voldemort's rebodification.

Well that's what we best know, it's all in the books :) He first keeps on with his teaching, helping to protect the stone, trying to save Harry, treating Harry, Hermione, Neville and Co unfairly, trying to get Sirius into Askaban, etc.
Later begins to spy for the Order on Voldemort. Helps Dumbledore with his injured hand.

Snape likely wasn´t a known DE at that time. If he had been a known DE, applying for a teaching job at Hogwarts would have been a moot point. Therefore I think Dumbledore did not suspect anything when Snape got caught listening in. He couldn´t know how much if anything Snape had heard anyway. I guess Snape was sent by LV to apply for a teaching post in order to spy on DD for LV. Snape returned to LV and reported the first part of the prophecy to him (the question whether Snape initially heard the whole prophecy and which reasons he could have had to leave out a pivotal part aside). As soon as Snape realized who LV was going after, he felt remorse and went to Dumbledore to confess and warn him about LV going after the Potters. Most likely he confessed as well that he was initially supposed to spy on him. Dumbledore then gave him the post to cover up.

Dumbledore knows someone has overheard Trelawney relay a prophesy which identifies the one person with the power to vanquish the dark lord. The prophesy was so potentially inflammatory that Dumbledore hired Trelawney and brough her into his protection. But the person who overheard the prohpesy was let just let go. Let go to tell whomever he wanted about what he'd overheard. Why? If Trelawney needed to be protected because of what she might be able to relay then why was it OK to let the easedropper go?

And what about the discrepancy between what Trelawney reported had happened and what Dumbledore told Harry had happened? Dumbledore told Harry that Snape had only heard part of the propohesy before he was thrown out yet Trelawney remembers seeing him at the end of her interview. Trelawney goes into a trance when she delivers a prophesy. The only way she could have seen Snape was if she had already come out of the trance. So did Snape hear all of it or just a portion? And why was he in the same room - Dumbledore's depiction of the events implies that Snape was thrown from the Hogs Head without ever entering the room. And again, why did Dumbledore let him leave knowing he could report he prophesy to anyone?

Why the discrepancy between what Dumbledore told Harry and what Trelawney told Harry?

Dumbledore knows someone has overheard Trelawney relay a prophesy which identifies the one person with the power to vanquish the dark lord. The prophesy was so potentially inflammatory that Dumbledore hired Trelawney and brough her into his protection. But the person who overheard the prohpesy was let just let go. Let go to tell whomever he wanted about what he'd overheard. Why? If Trelawney needed to be protected because of what she might be able to relay then why was it OK to let the easedropper go?Yes, I understand this is really problematic. I just tried to come up with an explanation that doesn´t make Dumbledore look inconsiderate, stupid or even manipulative. What we do know however is, that Dumbledore doesn´t think too high of prophecies. He explains to Harry, I think it is in OotP, that prophecies in itsself are worth nothing as long as there isn´t someone who does believe in the prophecy and acts accordingly. Maybe Dumbledore didn´t take the prophecy that serious at that time, and later had to learn the hard way that he had made one of his mistakes.

And what about the discrepancy between what Trelawney reported had happened and what Dumbledore told Harry had happened? Dumbledore told Harry that Snape had only heard part of the propohesy before he was thrown out yet Trelawney remembers seeing him at the end of her interview. Trelawney goes into a trance when she delivers a prophesy. The only way she could have seen Snape was if she had already come out of the trance. So did Snape hear all of it or just a portion? And why was he in the same room - Dumbledore's depiction of the events implies that Snape was thrown from the Hogs Head without ever entering the room. And again, why did Dumbledore let him leave knowing he could report he prophesy to anyone?

Why the discrepancy between what Dumbledore told Harry and what Trelawney told Harry?That is indeed very fishy and confusing and I have not come up yet with a satisfying answer for myself. If Snape had overheard the whole prophecy, as Trelawney´s version of events seem to indicate, why did he tell LV only the first part? On his own accord? Or had Dumbledore told him so (an option I really cannot believe)?

Exactly! There are just too many holes in the story.

If Dumbledore's version is correct and he allowed Snape to escape to relay the prophesy to Voldemort then he was dangerously reckless and careless, because even if he didn't buy the prophesy he knew Voldmort would.

What if, like others have suggested in editorial's, the Potter's and Longbottom's were in on the plan? What if Dumbledore heard the prophesy and immediately called the Potter's and Longbottom's to the Hogs Head and relayed the prophesy to them? They hatch the plan to send Snape to Voldemort to report a "portion" of the prophesy and go into hiding to protect their unborn children knowing that Voldemort will strike at some point in future. Snape reports a portion of the prophesy to Voldemort, Voldemort makes his choice, and the wheels are set in motion.

That scenario makes Dumbledore seem less manipulative and, to an extent, helps explain some of Snape's animosity toward Harry and Neville. It also explains, again, to an extent, the discrepancy between Dumbledore and Trelawney's versions of the events and sheds light on why Bella et all went after the Longbottom's.

And what about the discrepancy between what Trelawney reported had happened and what Dumbledore told Harry had happened? Dumbledore told Harry that Snape had only heard part of the propohesy before he was thrown out yet Trelawney remembers seeing him at the end of her interview. Trelawney goes into a trance when she delivers a prophesy. The only way she could have seen Snape was if she had already come out of the trance. So did Snape hear all of it or just a portion? And why was he in the same room - Dumbledore's depiction of the events implies that Snape was thrown from the Hogs Head without ever entering the room. And again, why did Dumbledore let him leave knowing he could report he prophesy to anyone?

Why the discrepancy between what Dumbledore told Harry and what Trelawney told Harry?
It appears that Aberforth caught Snape listening in the door, and prevented him hearing the second half of the prophecy. But after Trelawney is finished, there is a commotion at the door and Snape bursts in, presumably wanting to see who made the prophecy (it wasn't Trelawney's ordinary voice). In the mean time, Snape and Aberforth are scuffling in the corridor. It's quite likely that Aberforth intended to take Snape in and show him to Dumbledore anyway. Afterwards, Snape was "thrown from the building" as Dumbledore told Harry in OotP.

As an exercise folks can try reading the prophecy out loud. For the ellipses you can even use dramatic pauses sucking in your breath (just like Darth Vader), just as we saw in PoA. It only takes a minute to speak the prophecy. It would have been very easy for Snape to have only heard the first part and then have a scuffle with Aberforth. The scuffle would have prevented him from hearing the rest of the prophecy since he didn't have his ear to the door anymore. Then they could burst in after she finished. Since she doesn't know when she gives prophecies, she would think that he just burst in while she was talking.

It is an odd discrepency, though. What is also interesting is that when Harry confronts Dumbledore about it Dumbledore reiterates that Snape only heard the first half and Harry never mentions that Trelawny said that Snape burst into the room, after she appears to have completed the prophecy and come out of her trance (at least this is how I've read it).

I guess it could be due to Snape scuffling with Aberforth, but it is a difference that does jump out at you as such a big deal was previously made of only the first half of the prophecy ever being heard.

Why do people seem to consider it bad, that Dumbledore would conceal information? There are several reasons why a "good" Dumbledore would do just that.

First, we have from Dumbledore himself in OOtP, the statement that he did not think Harry was "ready" for what Dumbledore knew, and so held critical data from him for years. While Dumbledore became more forthcoming, it should be obvious that he would choose to tell Harry exactly, and limited to, what he felt Harry would be able to process and what Harry could hold in confidence.

Also, we always see the story from Harry's point-pf-view. Didn't it strike you as peculiar, after learning how a wizard can immerse themselves fully in a Pensieve memory, that Dumbledore did not allow Harry to do that with the Prophecy, but only to see a very limited image of Trelawney delivering the prophecy? It becomes reasonable to conclude there was more in the memory than what we know now. And from Trelawney's statement and Dumbledore's admission, that memory directly involves Severus Snape.

Should you want to know why Dumbledore would conceal parts of an important memory involving Snape, do not forget that Harry has, even yet, never managed to block his mind to Voldemort. The Dark Lord can, at any time of his choosing, look into Harry's mind and see what he can learn. Therefore, if there is something which Dumbledore does not want Voldemort to know, he has to keep it away from Harry as well. The fact that Snape is in close contact with Voldemort now makes this a vital concern, no matter what Snape intends to do.

Again I agree with you Daelin! I'm not sure Dumbledore concealing informaiotn from Harry was such a bad thing, especially if what he'd been attempting was done with the full knowledge of Harry and Neville's parents.

If Snape were scuffling with Aberforth in the hallway and only heard a porton of the prophesy because the scuffle made it impossible for him to hear it all, then I still wonder why Dumbledore let him get away. Dumbledore could have modified his memory, stupified him, sent him to prison, done any number of things to him which would have prevented him from disclosing that information to Voldemort, but he didn't. There has to be more of a reason than just Oops.

Folks, we really don't have to absolve Snape of his sins because he is a more interesting character if he did the things the story has told us. If he is truly repentant that ties directly to redemption and choice which are two of JKR's important themes. If he did make horribly bad choices like becoming a DE and revealing the prophecy, and he is repentant and risking his life daily in an effort to redeem himself, that gives him more texture as a character.

Should you want to know why Dumbledore would conceal parts of an important memory involving Snape, do not forget that Harry has, even yet, never managed to block his mind to Voldemort. The Dark Lord can, at any time of his choosing, look into Harry's mind and see what he can learn. Therefore, if there is something which Dumbledore does not want Voldemort to know, he has to keep it away from Harry as well. The fact that Snape is in close contact with Voldemort now makes this a vital concern, no matter what Snape intends to do.They were initially afraid that Voldemort could enter Harry's mind, but he wasn't entering Harry's mind at all; Harry was entering his. The only time that Voldemort entered Harry's was at the DoM, and Harry's heart (his love--the power the Dark Lord knows not) drove him out. All the other times Harry was either seeing Voldemort's dreams or Voldemort was deliberately projecting (i.e. consciously thinking about) the image of Sirius being tortured. Otherwise, Dumbledore wouldn't have told Harry about the horcruxes, since it would have been foolhardy to let Voldemort know Harry was hunting them.

When Dumbledore let Harry see the prophecy, he did withhold the information that Snape revealed the prophecy. But it doesn't necessarily follow that there was more to why he didn't have them immerse themselves into the memory. First, what he showed was probably identical to what the Hall of Prophecy had in the globe that had broken. And second, it was probably faster than diving into the Pensieve.

The entire memory might have included the part about the commotion at the door and Snape bursting in. But that might be all that was concealed from Harry at that particular time. And there was a good reason for that. Dumbledore didn't want to create more antagonism than Harry already felt about Snape, since Dumbledore felt Snape had atoned for revealing the prophecy.

If Dumbledore's version is correct and he allowed Snape to escape to relay the prophesy to Voldemort then he was dangerously reckless and careless, because even if he didn't buy the prophesy he knew Voldemort would. What if, like others have suggested in editorial's, the Potter's and Longbottom's were in on the plan? What if Dumbledore heard the prophesy and immediately called the Potter's and Longbottom's to the Hogs Head and relayed the prophesy to them? They hatch the plan to send Snape to Voldemort to report a "portion" of the prophesy and go into hiding to protect their unborn children knowing that Voldemort will strike at some point in future. Snape reports a portion of the prophesy to Voldemort, Voldemort makes his choice, and the wheels are set in motion. That scenario makes Dumbledore seem less manipulative and, to an extent, helps explain some of Snape's animosity toward Harry and Neville. It also explains, again, to an extent, the discrepancy between Dumbledore and Trelawney's versions of the events and sheds light on why Bella et all went after the Longbottom's.

As for why they let Snape go: There is no reason to assume anything more complicated than they may have thought that Snape didn't hear any of it at all. The prophecy was brief, so it follows that the scuffling must have been brief, too. Dumbledore would not have known that Snape had heard it until Snape returned to the good side and told Dumbledore the reason for his remorse. The simple answer is always the best.

Once Harry found out that Snape revealed the prophecy, if Dumbledore knew Snape wasn't culpable, he would not have let Snape carry that blame instead of himself. Dumbledore has never shown any aversion to assuming responsibility for things that might not have even been his fault, like Sirius's death. He would not let Snape assume blame when he could assume it himself. He would have explained any further plot endangering the babies deliberately.

However, it's a big deal if Dumbledore was concealing things like that from Harry (i.e. lying) because it would be out of character. JKR has said Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness. She wouldn't change that post posthumously.

When we propose theories, there are several components needed for a strong theory. It needs to fit the facts. We can't deny what is already on the printed page. It needs to be true to character. By the time we've had six books we know more about most characters than we would with a single book. And we also have a wealth of interviews and JKR's website to further our understanding.

The theory has to explain or fill in the holes of our current knowledge and answer existing questions in order to further the plot. But it doesn't have to be outrageous and shocking. Surprise, especially just for shock value, is rather pointless. JKR doesn't shock just for effect. Any revelations will need to advance and tie up loose ends of the storyline. DH will primarily be an exciting climax to the series with an adventure-filled quest and an edge-of-the-seat final confrontation. Explaining existing mysteries and tying out loose ends will be secondary. It will occur, but it won't change what we know about the characters, especially Dumbledore, who just died. There just isn't page space to suddenly reverse existing knowledge. JKR has so much to accomplish already, that she just won't have time to replow existing ground. That's just common sense.

We will learn more about Snape and why Dumbledore trusted him, but that doesn't mean that Dumbledore will be turned into a lying (and conniving) manipulator since that accomplishes nothing and runs counter to JKR's own statement about how she views Dumbledore.

They were initially afraid that Voldemort could enter Harry's mind, but he wasn't entering Harry's mind at all; Harry was entering his. The only time that Voldemort entered Harry's was at the DoM, and Harry's heart (his love--the power the Dark Lord knows not) drove him out.

I can't agree. At least twice Harry felt a snake stir & rise up in him.
Also the vision of Sirius in the MOM was planted in Harry's mind.

As for why they let Snape go: There is no reason to assume anything more complicated than they may have thought that Snape didn't hear any of it at all.

Or they hadn't figured out what it meant themselves (then)
Or they didn't know then that Snape was spying for Voldie.


If Harry's mind is believed either OPEN to Voldie, or more realistically, that it is unlikely Harry would be able to resist the worlds greatest Legilimens...then they'd have to keep things from Harry, and better, keep Harry thinking the wrong things. I do think this is behind much of Snape's deliberate bad attitude to Harry.


There just isn't page space to suddenly reverse existing knowledge. JKR has so much to accomplish already, that she just won't have time to replow existing ground. That's just common sense..

I don't agree. I think that during all of SS/PS we thought Snape was evil and in the end discovered he'd been trying to save Harry with the true villian elsewhere. In POA we thought Sirius was the danger... In COS the true villian was indeed a shock. In GOF the villian was a good guy in disguise. At the end of HPB - did we every really know Snape?

I really think that if the series of books is in fact one book, then JKR will hold true to form and there will be at least one twist at the end that will set us all back reading and slapping our heads that we missed it.

There may be another twist, but it isn't going to that Dumbledore was a conniving liar or that Snape was good all along. Two much canon has been devoted to thinking otherwise. JKR isn't going to make the big twist something that demeans the memory of Dumbledore.

So if Voldemort can enter Harry's mind, why would Dumbledore tell him about the horcruxes? Harry felt the linkage and that's why he felt the snake. But the one time Voldemort did enter Harry's mind (in the DoM), he had to leave immediately. He didn't need to plant the memory in Harry's mind since all he needed to do was dwell on it like he did when Harry saw the images of the door in the DoM.

I do think there is going to be a twist at the end, but it isn't going to reverse what we already know. It may expand and enhance it. How Harry kills Voldemort will also be a surprise. I happen to think that learning that Harry has a horcrux in his scar will be the big twist.

I do think this is behind much of Snape's deliberate bad attitude to Harry.
Snape is nasty to everyone he doesn't have to be polite to. He had to be polite to Narcissa and Bellatrix, and even then he was snarky at times. Narcissa is married to a powerful DE who might escape anytime. And Bella is an unstable nutjob DE who could go berserk any time. He's courteous to Dumbledore. But he was nasty to Sirius, Lupin, Harry, and Neville (and most of the Gryffindors). Again, we don't need to sanitize his behavior. He is who he is. The idea that Voldemort might get this from Harry's mind is an excuse I see a lot for Snape's nastiness. But I don't think that Dumbledore would have told Harry about horcruxes if he thought that Voldemort would find out. Otherwise Voldemort would run around and hide them somewhere more secure.

We've seen Lucius tell Draco that he should be nice to Harry so as not to create suspicions that Lucius might be a DE. Snape could easily have been politely cool to Harry under the same pretext.

We don't need to turn Snape into a fluffy bunny. He's there to show us that not all good people are nice, and not all nasty people are evil. He revealed the prophecy. He was filled with remorse when he found out it was the Potters. He repented and has since been trying to redeem himself.

Folks, we really don't have to absolve Snape of his sins because he is a more interesting character if he did the things the story has told us. If he is truly repentant that ties directly to redemption and choice which are two of JKR's important themes. If he did make horribly bad choices like becoming a DE and revealing the prophecy, and he is repentant and risking his life daily in an effort to redeem himself, that gives him more texture as a character.
Very well said! :tu:I really think that if the series of books is in fact one book, then JKR will hold true to form and there will be at least one twist at the end that will set us all back reading and slapping our heads that we missed it.
I certainly hope so! :D Nice as it is to be right about something, I'll be very disappointed if the book holds no surprises!

Folks, we really don't have to absolve Snape of his sins because he is a more interesting character if he did the things the story has told us.

We don't need to dwell on allegations which are dodgy and come from biased sources, either (Hey, I like Sirius, but he's not the most objective source, y'know?) . We have seen throughout the stories that Snape operates on more than one level, for more than the surface reason, and so whatever his motivation he attracts our attention.


If he is truly repentant that ties directly to redemption and choice which are two of JKR's important themes. If he did make horribly bad choices like becoming a DE and revealing the prophecy, and he is repentant and risking his life daily in an effort to redeem himself, that gives him more texture as a character.

It also gives him verisimilitude, in that he is neither predictable nor do I believe he is consistently logical. Most fictional characters run along certain predictable routines; Sherlock Holmes for example was never seen smoking a cigarette, nor did Indiana Jones worry much about getting dirty. But Severus Snape comes across as a convincingly "real" person. He makes mistakes, he gets mad at silly things, he has good days and bad, he is misunderstood, he is not a good fit for Social settings; it's not hard to see why there are so many fans who love him, not because he is cuddly and huggable, but precisely because he is not.


They were initially afraid that Voldemort could enter Harry's mind, but he wasn't entering Harry's mind at all; Harry was entering his.

I must disagree. The climax of OOtP showed that Voldemort was able to enter Harry's mind so subtly that Harry did not know if or when he was there; eventually Voldemort became able to influence Harry's dreams, which is of course how Harry came to go to the Ministry in the false belief that Sirius was in peril.

And there are other hints. Remember in CoS, when Harry wondered if he was really a Slytherin, the text tells us "Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don't you remember?"

(Chapter 11)

And in PoA, when Harry is holding the wand on Sirius Black, believing that Sirius had betrayed his parents and angrily trying to decide whether to kill him, again the voice shows up:

Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his head...

(Chapter 17)

That voice, which is snide and nasty and rather likes the idea of killing? That's Voldemort, messing with Harry early on. It's only later, when Voldemort discovers that Harry can also see into his head, that he begins to close the connection


When Dumbledore let Harry see the prophecy, he did withhold the information that Snape revealed the prophecy. But it doesn't necessarily follow that there was more to why he didn't have them immerse themselves into the memory. First, what he showed was probably identical to what the Hall of Prophecy had in the globe that had broken. And second, it was probably faster than diving into the Pensieve.

We don't know what was hidden in that memory, but this is proof that Dumbledore was willing to hide information from Harry. Knowing this, it only makes sense to keep that fact in mind when considering the serious discrepancy between Dumbledore's account and Trelawney's statement, especially since Dumbledore has reasons to alter his report while in this case Trelawney has no such motive.



The simple answer is always the best.

Unless it is incorrect. A correct answer is really always the best one.


However, it's a big deal if Dumbledore was concealing things like that from Harry (i.e. lying) because it would be out of character. JKR has said Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness. She wouldn't change that post posthumously.

Agreed. :agree: However, this does not mean that we should ignore deception, but rather we should think about why it happens. I agree that we already know enough about Snape, that the final book will not run counter to facts. I also believe, however, that we have seen throughout the story that the first impression, where Snape is concerned, is often incorrect.

Folks, we really don't have to absolve Snape of his sins because he is a more interesting character if he did the things the story has told us. If he is truly repentant that ties directly to redemption and choice which are two of JKR's important themes. If he did make horribly bad choices like becoming a DE and revealing the prophecy, and he is repentant and risking his life daily in an effort to redeem himself, that gives him more texture as a character.

I agree wholeheartedly.

We don't need to dwell on allegations which are dodgy and come from biased sources, either. (Hey, I like Sirius, but he's not the most objective source, y'know?)

Canon is canon, opinion of the characters or not. Unless something we're told is directly contradicted after the fact, it stands as a pretty good guide to what's true.

(Why is it that it's fine to dismiss anything Sirius says about Snape, but anything Snape thinks about Sirius is gold? Hmm...)

:lol:

And there are other hints. Remember in CoS, when Harry wondered if he was really a Slytherin, the text tells us "Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don't you remember?"

I think this was Harry's inner doubts expressing themselves, not the voice of LV in his brain. LV said in GoF that he had to flee again after he left Quirrell (no texts here so no exact quotes available, sorry)

Also, I (think) I agree with CBW - what's with the rush to judgement on DD, now that he's dead? :) It seems a lot of people are placing a bit too much stock in DD's own words about how he makes mistakes just like the next person, but his tend to be correspondingly huger since he's cleverer.

Oh...oops...Snape thread :p. Going back to Snape, I think that CBW is right. He's the best example in the series of how a truly nasty piece of work can still do what is right and what is good, in the end. DD probably even knows that Snape's a nasty piece of work, but he's the best that DD has, so he has to use Snape. A nice contrast to Snape is Umbridge. She's another character with a mean side who is not on the side of the Death Eaters. However, she's denies the return of LV and generally makes poor choices as to what to believe (i.e., she denies the truth).

I also agree with the comments expressed above - Snape, more so than most characters in the series, seems "real". He's completely believable as written, and, to my mind, he's the series most complex character.

Canon is canon, opinion of the characters or not. Unless something we're told is directly contradicted after the fact, it stands as a pretty good guide to what's true.

(Why is it that it's fine to dismiss anything Sirius says about Snape, but anything Snape thinks about Sirius is gold? Hmm...)

:lol:

Yes, Canon is Canon. However, we have been shown - repeatedly - that there is a very great difference between what we are told from various points of view. We can count on certain characters to be reasonable and balanced, while we - by now for sure - understand that certain characters allow their judgment to lead them astray. The contradictions shown between Sirius' portrayal of Snape, and the objective reference from the pensieve in SWM, prove that we cannot rely on Sirius' perspective as accurate with regarrd to Snape. This does not mean that we reject it, but rather that we must account for bias when considering it. JKR used this to misdirect readers from the first book; Snape was the obvious villain in PS/SS, yet we later learned that everything which looked so bad was actually to his credit. That hardly makes Snape a wonderful person, of course, but it reminds us not to be fooled by superficial impressions.

Since I never made mention about anything Snape said about Srius, I don't believe we have a real issue there.

With regard to Sirius' claims about Snape, I have always wondered - apart from his obvious hatred for Snape - what was the basis of the specific claim. For instance, Sirius paints Severus in damning colors in Goblet of Fire, claiming not only that he knew a load of curses from the day he first arrived at Hogwarts (but then, so did Ginny Weasley!)m but that he hung around with a "gang of Slytherins" which became Death Eaters. Since the pensieve memory in SWM shows a Snape who is alone and who is the victim of an unprovoked attack by James' gang, we must wonder what is really going on. This hardly means, of course, that Snape is some harmless kitten who loves the world and everyone in it, but it does demonstrate that there is more going on than can be answered with one source for reference.

Something caused Sirius to believe that Severus was steeped in Dark Arts before he got to Hogwarts. How does he come to think so? And since the one time we have a clear image of Hogwarts-Snape, he is alone and undefended, we need to also decide how close his "friendship" with those Slytherin really was, and why the appearance should be off from the proof.

Rowling does not make things complex just to amuse herself, so I think we do well to look deeper than just what one or two people say on the matter.

Sirius paints Severus in damning colors in Goblet of Fire, claiming not only that he knew a load of curses from the day he first arrived at Hogwarts (but then, so did Ginny Weasley!)
Ginny did not know a lot of dark curses. She was being posessed by Voldemort and all her dark knowledge (including parseltongue) came from him. Snape knew dark curses because he knew them for himself. And we can assume that Sirius told the truth. A biased way of telling the truth, no doubt, but still the truth. After all, why should Sirius do otherwise?
And we know that Snape invented dark curses at the age of 15. We don't know why or how, but the fact remains that
1) He knew dark curses being a kid
2) He invented dark curses being a teenager
3) He willingly joined the DE being a young adult

All that makes Snape being on the good side, comes IMO posterior to this.

Correct me if I'm wrong Daelin, but you're referring to Ginny's bat-bogey hex? I can't recall any other jinxes / hexes that Ginny is mentioned as an "expert" at...

Correct me if I'm wrong Daelin, but you're referring to Ginny's bat-bogey hex? I can't recall any other jinxes / hexes that Ginny is mentioned as an "expert" at...

I don't have my books with me, but IIRC Fred & George were wary of getting on her bad side from the beginning. The bat-bogey hex was one we saw used, but I don't think it was the only one in her arsenal.

Guad, I agree that Snape clearly started in, well, a Dark Grey condition at best by the time he got to Hogwarts. That does not tell us, however, what the source was for that direction, what changed it, and the details of Snape's development. You said he "invented dark curses", but from HBP we see that a lot of them were not really dark at all; the levitation curse became a popular prank, for instance. Really, of the spells we see in the potions book, only Sectumsempra was dark, and even there Snape wrote a caution to use it only on enemies.

All this does not change the fact that Snape - as an adult - is a bully and is on better than speaking terms with some truly despicable people (friends with Lucius Malfoy, for instance). But the road of Snape is a long and winding one, and I do not believe he was uniformly black in his formative years. I would even go so far as to suggest that the Marauders influenced him to choose that way, Snape's wounded pride and thirst for revenge becoming greater than his judgment. This seems to me a profitable line of inquiry to understand his character, and to project what we may expect from Severus Snape in the final installment.

How does Dumbledore launching a comples plan which would brign about he downfall of the Dark Lord in any way, shape, or form demean his memory or change his or Snape's memory? All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there is more to the story than we've been told, which seems to be suggested by the discrepancies in what was conveyed to Harry from Trelawney and Dumbleodre about the night the prophesy was disclosed.

Dumbledore knows only two babies who are due to be born in late July whose parenst have defined Voldemort three times - Harry and Neville. He knows their parents lives are in jepoardy simply because they are in the Order and have actively sought the downfall of the Dark Lord. So he launches a plan to withhold a portion of the prophesy from Voldemort. The Potters and the Longbottom's are aware of the plan and go along with it. Snape is dispatched to report his news to Voldemort and report Voldemort's reaction to Dumbledore.

How does this make Dumbledore the master manipulator or disavow his memory? He asks people all the time to risk their lives for the Order - look at what he has Lupin doing. He did everything he could to protect the Potters - even offering to be their secret keeper when it became obvious that someone was sneaking information to Voldemort about their movements. If anything, it shows the depth of Dumbledore's devotion to the people he cares about, because he cares enough to set a plan in motion which might increase the risk to them but will ensure the defeat of Voldemort.

How does this change Snapes character at all except to make his motivation for changing sides a bit more than "gee I didn't think Voldemort would try to kill Harry and the Potter's and I feel really bad about that. What other conclusion could you reach to hearing those words other than that Voldemort would try to kill whomever the prophesy was talking about?

I don't have my books with me, but IIRC Fred & George were wary of getting on her bad side from the beginning. The bat-bogey hex was one we saw used, but I don't think it was the only one in her arsenal.
Fred? The one who burned a hole in Ron's tongue and turned his teddy bear into a giant spider before he even started Hogwarts? It looks as if wizard kids grow up hexing each other, and Sirius would be no exception. So when he says Snape knew more curses than most seventh years, even allowing for exaggeration, we must assume that Snape arrived at school well-equipped with curses (defined by Jo as Dark magic).

We don't know what else Ginny may have up her sleeve, but the Bat Bogey HEX is the only one we see her using (as far as I can remember). And it's a hex, not a curse.
Spell Definitions

Every now and then somebody asks me for the difference between a spell, a charm and a hex. Within the Potter world, the boundaries are flexible, and I imagine that wizards may have their own ideas. Hermione-ish, however, I've always had a working theory:

Spell:
The generic term for a piece of magic.

Charm:
Does not fundamentally alter the properties of the subject of the spell, but adds, or changes, properties. Turning a teacup into a rat would be a spell, whereas making a teacup dance would be a charm. The grey area comes with things like 'Stunning Spells', which on balance I think are Charms, but which I call spells for alliterative effect.

Hexes:
Has a connotation of dark magic, as do jinxes, but of a minor sort. I see 'hex' as slightly worse. I usually use 'jinx' for spells whose effects are irritating but amusing.

Curses:
Reserved for the worst kinds of dark magic.

link (http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=24)

Or they didn't know then that Snape was spying for Voldie.Wasn't Snape a known Death Eater? If not, he was at least a suspected Death Eater.

All this does not change the fact that Snape - as an adult - is a bully and is on better than speaking terms with some truly despicable people (friends with Lucius Malfoy, for instance). But the road of Snape is a long and winding one, and I do not believe he was uniformly black in his formative years. I would even go so far as to suggest that the Marauders influenced him to choose that way, Snape's wounded pride and thirst for revenge becoming greater than his judgment. This seems to me a profitable line of inquiry to understand his character, and to project what we may expect from Severus Snape in the final installment.Well, we don't really know very much about Snape's formative years, so it's impossible to know, for example, if he bullied little kids in the Slytherin common room.

Snape definitely suffers from wounded pride and anger as a result of his childhood experiences. But there are many avenues of expressing these emotions - and he's chosen the wrong one.

Fred? The one who burned a hole in Ron's tongue and turned his teddy bear into a giant spider before he even started Hogwarts? It looks as if wizard kids grow up hexing each other, and Sirius would be no exception. So when he says Snape knew more curses than most seventh years, even allowing for exaggeration, we must assume that Snape arrived at school well-equipped with curses (defined by Jo as Dark magic).

Pardon? IIRC, it was Sirius (biased at least) who claimed Snape was up to his ears in Dark Magic when he arrived at Hogwarts, not Fred. After all, Fred arrived long after Snape graduated. My point was that Fred & George, mischief makers extraordinaire, left Ginny alone because she was able to hex with flair long before her first Hogwarts class. That is, knowing curses is not necessarily a sign of evil intent. And yes, a hex is different from a curse, but the way that curses are used, a curse is not always a black magic thing. At least, the way I have read the stories, they weren't. :shrug:

I'm sorry, but I am completely confused. Why and in what context were Fred, George, Ginny and the differences between dark and petty magic brought up in conversation???

Fred and George are slightly afraid or afraid of Ginny's hexing ability, which she has apparently had since a young age (since before entering school)

Daelin and Anabel both mentioned that Sirius claimed Snape came to school knowing more curses than most 7th years.

The debate is whether knowing a lot of curses or hexes entering school is in and of itself significant - since Ginny is a nice girl and Snape is not a nice guy, yet they apparently both entered school with the ability to incur pain on others. The shades of difference between a hex (what Ginny does) and a curse (what Snape apparently knew) could be the difference explaining how it's OK that Ginny knew what she knew, while it was a sign that Snape wasn't a nice guy that he knew those hexes.

Personally, I think that Ginny isn't a good comparison for Snape. They seem completely different personalities; their biggest similarity is that they're good with a wand. I can't think of a student at the moment who is a good comparison for Snape.

I hope I didn't add to the confusion - Snape's a confusing enough character without me adding to the craziness!

Fred and George are slightly afraid or afraid of Ginny's hexing ability, which she has apparently had since a young age (since before entering school)

Daelin and Anabel both mentioned that Sirius claimed Snape came to school knowing more curses than most 7th years.

The debate is whether knowing a lot of curses or hexes entering school is in and of itself significant - since Ginny is a nice girl and Snape is not a nice guy, yet they apparently both entered school with the ability to incur pain on others. The shades of difference between a hex (what Ginny does) and a curse (what Snape apparently knew) could be the difference explaining how it's OK that Ginny knew what she knew, while it was a sign that Snape wasn't a nice guy that he knew those hexes.

Personally, I think that Ginny isn't a good comparison for Snape. They seem completely different personalities; their biggest similarity is that they're good with a wand. I can't think of a student at the moment who is a good comparison for Snape.

I hope I didn't add to the confusion - Snape's a confusing enough character without me adding to the craziness!


Thanks Chparadise, you summed it up nicely :tu:. The reason I brought up Ginny, is precisely because she is nice. It looks to me like Snape had potential to go any number of ways when he arrived at Hogwarts, but just as he made choices in various situations, so too other people - like Sirius - made choices which affected not only the life course of Severus Snape, but their own as well.

What I mean is, Harry treated people with kindness and respect, who were outcasts to most students. Moaning Myrtle and Luna Lovegood, for example. And he has gained from his acquaintance with them. Unfortunately, it appears that Sirius Black and Severus Snape never took that opportunity. We can't speak for Sirius' motives here, but it appears to me worth mentioning that the development of Severus into a nasty git was not merely his character and personal choices, but the conditions he faced and the way people treated him. With Snape likely to present a crucial role in the last book, how he is treated, by Harry and his friends or by Voldemort and his minions, may have everything to do with his final choices and motives. I see that door as unlocked, if not open.

So if Voldemort can enter Harry's mind, why would Dumbledore tell him about the horcruxes? Dumbledore gives Harry a kind of explanation though. He thinks LV, after the events of the DoM, found it too dangerous to open up his mind to Harry. Dumbledore, at least that´s how I understand it, is under the impression LV would not again try to read Harry´s mind.

That is not to say Harry should not improve his Occlumency skills vastly.

Apart from that, I agree with your assessment of the events during the prophecy and why Dumbledore did not try to stop Snape.

How does Dumbledore launching a comples plan which would brign about he downfall of the Dark Lord in any way, shape, or form demean his memory or change his or Snape's memory? All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there is more to the story than we've been told, which seems to be suggested by the discrepancies in what was conveyed to Harry from Trelawney and Dumbleodre about the night the prophesy was disclosed.

Dumbledore knows only two babies who are due to be born in late July whose parenst have defined Voldemort three times - Harry and Neville. He knows their parents lives are in jepoardy simply because they are in the Order and have actively sought the downfall of the Dark Lord. So he launches a plan to withhold a portion of the prophesy from Voldemort. The Potters and the Longbottom's are aware of the plan and go along with it. Snape is dispatched to report his news to Voldemort and report Voldemort's reaction to Dumbledore. Okay, this is kind of off topic but I can´t resist to ask: What for? What could be the reason to endanger two married couples who are expecting their first baby in that way? If Dumbledore had any inkling LV might be one to believe in prophecies, he would have made sure LV never ever heard a word of it.

I personally find the explanation more likely that Dumbledore did not really think Snape might have heard enough if anything of the prophecy to go around reporting it to other people. And why should Snape? Dumbledore would not have known at that point in time that Snape was a DE.

Fred? The one who burned a hole in Ron's tongue and turned his teddy bear into a giant spider before he even started Hogwarts? It looks as if wizard kids grow up hexing each other, and Sirius would be no exception. So when he says Snape knew more curses than most seventh years, even allowing for exaggeration, we must assume that Snape arrived at school well-equipped with curses (defined by Jo as Dark magic).

Pardon? IIRC, it was Sirius (biased at least) who claimed Snape was up to his ears in Dark Magic when he arrived at Hogwarts, not Fred. After all, Fred arrived long after Snape graduated. My point was that Fred & George, mischief makers extraordinaire, left Ginny alone because she was able to hex with flair long before her first Hogwarts class. That is, knowing curses is not necessarily a sign of evil intent. And yes, a hex is different from a curse, but the way that curses are used, a curse is not always a black magic thing. At least, the way I have read the stories, they weren't.
My post was a little unclear, but of course I meant that Sirius said it, not Fred. And they didn't leave her alone - in CoS they kept jumping out at her covered in fur or boils in an attempt to cheer her up!Fred and George are slightly afraid or afraid of Ginny's hexing ability, which she has apparently had since a young age (since before entering school)

Daelin and Anabel both mentioned that Sirius claimed Snape came to school knowing more curses than most 7th years.

The debate is whether knowing a lot of curses or hexes entering school is in and of itself significant - since Ginny is a nice girl and Snape is not a nice guy, yet they apparently both entered school with the ability to incur pain on others. The shades of difference between a hex (what Ginny does) and a curse (what Snape apparently knew) could be the difference explaining how it's OK that Ginny knew what she knew, while it was a sign that Snape wasn't a nice guy that he knew those hexes.

Personally, I think that Ginny isn't a good comparison for Snape. They seem completely different personalities; their biggest similarity is that they're good with a wand. I can't think of a student at the moment who is a good comparison for Snape.

I hope I didn't add to the confusion - Snape's a confusing enough character without me adding to the craziness!
Seems like a good summary! :)