Bellatrix Lestrange: Character Analysis

Yeah, absolutely! More favour for Snape and more shame on the Malfoy family and by association (and also by the fact she taught Draco some of the skills he would need) on herself. Depending on how Voldemort reacts, of course, she may also be worried for her sister.
This does put Bella in quite the predicament, I think. Would she risk her life to help Cissy and Draco hide from Voldy? Would she go AWOL with them? Given the survival record of past DE abdicators, odds are GREATLY against Draco and Cissy if they try to hide from Voldy, but the odds are also bad if they go back to him. As Bella does care for her sister and nephew I can see her trying to help them, but to what extent will she go? If she hides them, she would have to practice some pretty advanced Occlumency against Voldy in order to keep him from finding out that she helped.
I can imagine Bellatrix doing something rash in the seventh book without the Dark Lord's approval to try and get back in favour, such as going after Harry herself, because she's so mad about the outcome of Draco's task.
Now that would be a great plot twist wouldn't it?

happy holidays,
la femme

This does put Bella in quite the predicament, I think. Would she risk her life to help Cissy and Draco hide from Voldy? Would she go AWOL with them? Given the survival record of past DE abdicators, odds are GREATLY against Draco and Cissy if they try to hide from Voldy, but the odds are also bad if they go back to him. As Bella does care for her sister and nephew I can see her trying to help them, but to what extent will she go? If she hides them, she would have to practice some pretty advanced Occlumency against Voldy in order to keep him from finding out that she helped.

Now that would be a great plot twist wouldn't it?

happy holidays,
la femme

We've already discussed this one a couple of times, but I don't mind stating again what I think about it. I'm pretty sure if Narcissa and Draco were in danger Bellatrix would help them. To what extent she'd go I'm not so sure of. It might just be a matter of turning a blind eye to something, or if it is inevitable they will be killed, volunteering to do the deed herself so she can make it fast and painless. It could be running away with them, and although I believe this could be possible from what we've seen so far I doubt JKR will have it happen in book 7 as it takes up too much time. I don't think she'd mention any role Bellatrix had in helping them escape either, it would probably not fit with the story, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have a role.

Interesting mention about the survival rate of DE deserters! The only two we've seen are of course Karkaroff and Regulus, neither of which had the support or aid of the Order. However, we did hear Dumbledore offer the Order's protection for Draco, and also his mother and father. Harry heard this so would be able to back up Draco's story if he came seeking help, and the Order will listen to Harry. In the unlikely event Bellatrix did go AWOL with them, though, the invitation does not extend to her, and Harry, considering his feelings about her, is unlikely to want to allow her any protection, and I doubt the rest of the Order will. i'm not sure whether she'd accept it even if they did. Bellatrix might see her sister and Draco to safety and then be forced to leave and either kill herself or wait for Voldemort to do it, in the unlikely event the plotline of her actually leaving happened. She'd be unlikely to be able to hide herself with any effectiveness without the order's help.

Yeah, it would be a pretty good plot twist if Bellatrix went after Harry! According to the prophecy, she wouldn't succeed in killing him though, as "either must die AT THE HAND of the other", not the other's servant. She could in the process, however, end up getting rid of someone else, such as Hermione or Ron, or even be killed herself by Harry or an Order member.

"A hundred reasons!" she said loudly, striding out from behind the sofa to slam her glass upon the table. "Where to start! Where were you when the Dark Lord fell? Why did you never make any attempt to find him when he vanished? What have you been doing all these years that you've lived in Dumbledore's pocket? Why did you stop the Dark Lord procuring the Philosopher's Stone? Why did you not return at once when the Dark Lord was reborn? Where were you a few weeks ago when we battled to retrieve the prophecy for the Dark Lord? And why, Snape, is Harry Potter still alive, when you have had him at your mercy for five years?"


I have no doubt that Bellatrix is a highly intelligent women but its very obvious to me from her outburst that there is no way she could ever make a good spy. She seems far to wound up and emotional. I think at times she gets caught up in the heat of the moment and loses all sense of reason like the fight in the MoM. She is so sadistic to the point it makes her seem mentally unstable. I don't think Azkban did this to her. I think that is just the way she is and it probably has to do with the Black family genes. From what we've heard about them they all sound like pretty sadistic over bread aristocrats clinging to their name and whats left of the Black family wealth by abusing anyone they deem beneath them. People are not all bad but Bellatrix sounds like the type of kid who liked to torture puppies and kittens for fun. Anyways it was the last part of her rant that got to me. Asking Snape why Harry wasn't dead yet when he had ample opportunity. As Snape pointed out if he had laid a hand on Harry, Dumbledore would have whopped his ***. Secondly Snape isn't a pyschopath like Bellatrix who would glady lay down her life for Voldemort. Snape had a comfortable and respected position. He wasn't about to trash all that so he could live out the rest of his life in either Azkaban or as a vegetable for someone whom everyone deemed gone from the face of the earth forever. Snape isn't the type to die for anyone not even for a noble cause. He's out for himself. What possible good could come from his death? THere would be no glory in it for him if he killed Harry off at the first opportunity. Snape waited and bidded his time in comfort. Bellatrix acts in impulse and I think there is a reason why Snape was chosen to act as spy rather than Bellatrix because even thought she is one of Voldemort's best DE's its obvious she would have botched the plan as double agent. Not to mention there is no way this side of the moon DD would ever have believed pyhschotic well known Bellatrix Black's word. The Student's parents would have revolted first.

As for Bellatrix teachign Draco occlumency, I don't think Voldemort had to ask her to do anything. I think Bellatrix has always been closer to Narcissa than Andromeda. Now her only nephew has been favored with a noble task by the Dark Lord himself. I have no doubt Bellatrix taught Draco of her own intent. A loving aunt with her favored nephew as a willing pupil.

Voldemort is only close to a few of his DE's and I doubt he would go out of his way to teach them all occlumency. His DE's are expendable to him. Bellatrix must have been in extremely high favor with Voldemort for him to have bothered to lend his time to her.

I think Bellatrix is definately very devoted to Voldemort but I do not see her "gladly laying down her life for him". I cannot see the dark lord trying to kill her anytime soon anyway she is to much of an asset.

Nice points, Discordia. I agree that Bellatrix lacks a certain amount of subtelty. Like torturing the Longbottoms into insanity to get to Voldemort. Two insane aurors is something that's going to be noticed very fast, which isn't exactly what one wants when on the run.

I think Bellatrix is definately very devoted to Voldemort but I do not see her "gladly laying down her life for him". I cannot see the dark lord trying to kill her anytime soon anyway she is to much of an asset.

There are other ways of laying down your life than literally dying.

I agree with Discordia and Rell, Bellatrix certainly is severly lacking in subtelty. This is one reason why she and Snape are so at odds. Bellatrix is so open about her loyalties and devoted herself that someone who can even act like they're on the other side is something she's very mistrustful of.

It's just what I imagined about teaching Draco, as well. I don't think Voldemort would have asked her to, although I imagine Narcissa may have.

I don't think sadism is nesscessarily a Black family trait: Regulus certainly isn't sadistic as he backed out when he realised what he'd have to do at great risk to himself (if Sirius' version of the matter is true at any rate), and I also doubt Andromeda is. Narcissa is snobbish but doesn't seem overly sadistic. Sirius' mother is a cruel mad bat admittedly(although she probably isn't too much of a Black by blood anyway), but we don't know so much about his father or his uncle and aunt.

There are other ways of laying down your life than literally dying.
like making certain that one's neighbors would be happy feeling parasites for thirteen years or so. I agree with Discordia and Rell, Bellatrix certainly is severly lacking in subtelty. This is one reason why she and Snape are so at odds. Bellatrix is so open about her loyalties and devoted herself that someone who can even act like they're on the other side is something she's very mistrustful of. It's just what I imagined about teaching Draco, as well. I don't think Voldemort would have asked her to, although I imagine Narcissa may have.
Doesn't Snape say somewhere that subtelty is needed for occlumency? This is interesting because we know that Bellatrix ought to have been a good occlumens and legilimens(sp?) as she trained Draco so well that he was protected against even Snape.

Doesn't Snape say somewhere that subtelty is needed for occlumency? This is interesting because we know that Bellatrix ought to have been a good occlumens and legilimens(sp?) as she trained Draco so well that he was protected against even Snape.

Yes, but I suspect with Bellatrix her subtlety is when she is in control of her emotions. Half the time she seems to be flying off the handle.

I think Bellatrix is definately very devoted to Voldemort but I do not see her "gladly laying down her life for him". I cannot see the dark lord trying to kill her anytime soon anyway she is to much of an asset.

Do you see Bella as an asset? At the moment she seems more of a liability. She seems to go for the violent option most of the time and it doesn't always work, nor is it always what's needed. She charges into things without thinking it through, which is what makes her so different from Snape and Malfoy. She's brave, she's clever, she's a skilled witch but her headstrong nature makes her unpredictable and I can't see the Dark Lord seeing that as an asset.

Incidentally Kharina, Sirius' mother was a Black by birth as well as by marriage according to Jo's Black family tree. She and Orion were cousins, or second cousins. (Can't remember which). And the inference is that Grimmauld Place was hers not her husband's. So she is a blood relative of Bella & Narcissa, and her manic personality could be a trait which her nieces (or Bella at least) have inherited.

horcrx4, i'm starting to think that those traits may have developed post azkaban. If Voldemort did depend on Bellatrix as much as she says, (and I don't think we have cause to doubt her), she must have been reliable at some point. Then again, torturing the Longbottoms was rather rash, so she might have first developed these traits in some sort of traumatic state after Voldemort's downfall and fostered them during confinement. What do you think?

horcrx4, i'm starting to think that those traits may have developed post azkaban. If Voldemort did depend on Bellatrix as much as she says, (and I don't think we have cause to doubt her), she must have been reliable at some point. Then again, torturing the Longbottoms was rather rash, so she might have first developed these traits in some sort of traumatic state after Voldemort's downfall and fostered them during confinement. What do you think?

I think Bellatrix has always been the way she is. I don't think Azkaban could have really done much to her mental state except deepen the problems that were already there. When she got carted off to Azkaban she behaved like the she Queen of Sheba. Torturing the Longbottoms into insanity was far too extreme. It was like she didn't know when to stop. After Bellatrix left Azkaban she must have been so...haunted. I think her behavior was similar to Sirius's after she got out. Just completely bouncing off the walls. At the DoM battle Lucius was in check with himself. He had a reign on things. Bellatrix was off like a cannon. I agree though that Bellatrix is more of a liability now than she was some 16 years ago. I think in the beginning where chaos reigned supreme Bellatrix was useful. She was extremely devoted to Voldemort and I think she was valuable because she would have done anything to get the task done. Back than Bellatrix could get away with more since Voldemort was winning. Now there are more obstacles which require more brain power. Bellatrix is too high strung. She could be used as the perfect sacrificial lamb and it wouldn't even realize it because she is willing to die for Voldemort.

Discordia, so you're saying that when Voldemort was in control, he didn't need to be so cautious (just clarifying)? That's a good idea. Bellatrix would have been an amazing asset then as she is rather uninhibited. Because if she had never been an asset, Voldemort would never have put up with her.

like making certain that one's neighbors would be happy feeling parasites for thirteen years or so.
Doesn't Snape say somewhere that subtelty is needed for occlumency? This is interesting because we know that Bellatrix ought to have been a good occlumens and legilimens(sp?) as she trained Draco so well that he was protected against even Snape.

Certainly he says that you need to be able to control your emotions: he says "people who wear their hearts on their sleeves" (roughly those words anyway) are not likely to be good at Occlumency. Now, Bellatrix certainly never seems to hide her emotions: it seems strange then that she is also a good enough Occulumens to teach Draco. Unless Snape was just saying that in anger at Harry and even very emotional, impulsive and un-subtle (OK, that probably isn't a word!) people can still learn Occulumency, maybe it also depends on a desire to hide your emotions and thoughts (which Harry didn't have as he wanted to still have the dream) and magical ability (which both Bellatrix and Harry have in abundance).

Do you see Bella as an asset? At the moment she seems more of a liability. She seems to go for the violent option most of the time and it doesn't always work, nor is it always what's needed. She charges into things without thinking it through, which is what makes her so different from Snape and Malfoy. She's brave, she's clever, she's a skilled witch but her headstrong nature makes her unpredictable and I can't see the Dark Lord seeing that as an asset.

She has both advantages and disadvantages: certainly if Lucius hadn't stopped her she might have smashed the prophecy earlier (although, on the other hand, she might have succeeded in getting hold of it). She's just as useful as Lucius or Snape, I imagine, just in a different way.

I think Bellatrix has always been the way she is. I don't think Azkaban could have really done much to her mental state except deepen the problems that were already there. When she got carted off to Azkaban she behaved like the she Queen of Sheba. Torturing the Longbottoms into insanity was far too extreme. It was like she didn't know when to stop. After Bellatrix left Azkaban she must have been so...haunted. I think her behavior was similar to Sirius's after she got out. Just completely bouncing off the walls. At the DoM battle Lucius was in check with himself. He had a reign on things. Bellatrix was off like a cannon. I agree though that Bellatrix is more of a liability now than she was some 16 years ago. I think in the beginning where chaos reigned supreme Bellatrix was useful. She was extremely devoted to Voldemort and I think she was valuable because she would have done anything to get the task done. Back than Bellatrix could get away with more since Voldemort was winning. Now there are more obstacles which require more brain power. Bellatrix is too high strung. She could be used as the perfect sacrificial lamb and it wouldn't even realize it because she is willing to die for Voldemort.

We don't really have enough evidence to say one way or the other what Bellatrix was like before Azkaban: I hope we get some in Book 7, I would like more backstory on her. All we have is what she says to the Wizengamot: I'm pretty sure she's always been proud and it's her habit to behave "like the Queen of Sheba" even when given a life sentence. That could have just been her pride talking, not letting the Wizengamot get the upper hand.

Although the torture of the Longbottoms was far too extreme in our eyes, we have to think a bit more like Bellatrix: I think she genuinely believed that the Longbottoms were responsible for Voldemort's disappearance and knew how to get him back. There's no canon evidence for or against her so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, as I think it would be far too risky a thing for her to do just because she wanted to vent her anger on someone. Bellatrix was certainly devoted to the Dark Lord back then, and desperately wanted to get him back. In her eyes, the only way she could do this was to torture the Longbottoms until they gave her the information she knew they had. When they said they didn't know anything, she thought they were lying. Her desperation, anger and thirst for revenge at that point probably stopped her from seeing the time when they would have given information if they'd had it, and realising they really didn't know anything. She was blinded to this by desperation and so carried on, when if she'd have been calmer she'd perhaps have stopped. I don't think this means she was quite as insane or cruel as she shows us when she comes out. Her action was utterly wrong and a terrible thing to do, of course, but I think there is not too insane reasoning behind it. I think Azkaban has changed her for the worse, although I agree she wasn't all that sane and rational before she went in, it has still had a huge effect on her.

Discordia, so you're saying that when Voldemort was in control, he didn't need to be so cautious (just clarifying)? That's a good idea. Bellatrix would have been an amazing asset then as she is rather uninhibited. Because if she had never been an asset, Voldemort would never have put up with her.

I think she is STILL an asset, but only for certain tasks. It's interesting that Voldemort doesn't send her in with the DE's who go into Hogwarts through the Vanishing Cabinet in Book 6. It's not like he just sends calm rational people: Fenrir Greyback is a bit of a liability really. Although was he even ordered to go, or does he just tag along? Draco says he didn't know Greyback was coming, so maybe Greyback went of his own accord, and LV was trying just to send less impulsive DE's than Bella. Maybe it's just that Bellatrix is too well recognised and too wanted by aurors to be able to go, although she went to the Ministry and there was the same situation then. Perhaps by this point LV has found out about the Unbreakable Vow (through Wormtail?) and doesn't trust her with a mission centering around her own nephew.

I've always gotten the impression that whether Bellatrix is really much of an asset or not, Voldemort likes to have her around because he finds her complete devotion and insane, utter hatred of muggles and blood traitors refreshing.

We don't really have enough evidence to say one way or the other what Bellatrix was like before Azkaban: I hope we get some in Book 7, I would like more backstory on her. All we have is what she says to the Wizengamot: I'm pretty sure she's always been proud and it's her habit to behave "like the Queen of Sheba" even when given a life sentence. That could have just been her pride talking, not letting the Wizengamot get the upper hand.

Personally I think Bellatrix knew somethig about Voldemort's horcruxes. She believed Voldemort was immortal. She had absolute certainty that Voldemort would rise again. I don't think that was her saving face in front of the Wizengamot. She was so irritatingly sure Voldemort would return. She knew things they didn't.


Discordia, so you're saying that when Voldemort was in control, he didn't need to be so cautious (just clarifying)? That's a good idea. Bellatrix would have been an amazing asset then as she is rather uninhibited. Because if she had never been an asset, Voldemort would never have put up with her.

More or less. Back at the height of Voldemort's power he seemed invincible. Whatever he was he certainly wasn't human any more. He was winning the war and it seemed he had no weaknesses. No body knew how he was keeping himself alive and he had an army at his disposle. He could put up with Bellatrix's insanity because no matter what she did it wasn't going to hurt their cause. Now Harry has enough ammunition to put up more of a fight and he knows Voldemort's weakness. Bellatrix is loose enough that she might even let something slip. She's not a stable person and she thinks she is invulnerable. Its only a matter time before she gets what's coming to her.


Although the torture of the Longbottoms was far too extreme in our eyes, we have to think a bit more like Bellatrix: I think she genuinely believed that the Longbottoms were responsible for Voldemort's disappearance and knew how to get him back.

Rowlign said Bellarix didn't know about the prophecy. She went after the Longbottoms so what was her reasoning than? Bellatrix seemed to believe Voldemort would return so she couldn't have thought the Longbottoms ran off the dark lord himself. Why target the longbottoms? Why not the Potters? Did she know about them at all? I think her reasons for targeting the Longbottoms might have to do with whatever it is they did to defy Voldemort three times.


I think Azkaban has changed her for the worse, although I agree she wasn't all that sane and rational before she went in, it has still had a huge effect on her.

Those dementors....they can take a toll on anyone. Look at the reactions of people who feel their presence for a small moment of time. Dudley, Harry, Hagrid, etc. It drains you. Can you imagine reliving your worst memories and fears all over again daily for years? It must leave a huge stain on your soul not to mention your mental state. Sirius seemed like some half crazed jack the ripper pyscho when he got out. Whatever issues Bellatrix had going in they only deepened while she was there. Of all the Black sisters she seems to be the one with the most issues. Narcissa knows how to keep her cool more. If Bellatrix had a son and someone dared threaten her little boy I have no doubt she'd start spitting out curses like there was no tomorrow.

Although the torture of the Longbottoms was far too extreme in our eyes, we have to think a bit more like Bellatrix: I think she genuinely believed that the Longbottoms were responsible for Voldemort's disappearance and knew how to get him back. There's no canon evidence for or against her so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, as I think it would be far too risky a thing for her to do just because she wanted to vent her anger on someone. Bellatrix was certainly devoted to the Dark Lord back then, and desperately wanted to get him back. In her eyes, the only way she could do this was to torture the Longbottoms until they gave her the information she knew they had. When they said they didn't know anything, she thought they were lying. Her desperation, anger and thirst for revenge at that point probably stopped her from seeing the time when they would have given information if they'd had it, and realising they really didn't know anything. She was blinded to this by desperation and so carried on, when if she'd have been calmer she'd perhaps have stopped. I don't think this means she was quite as insane or cruel as she shows us when she comes out. Her action was utterly wrong and a terrible thing to do, of course, but I think there is not too insane reasoning behind it. I think Azkaban has changed her for the worse, although I agree she wasn't all that sane and rational before she went in, it has still had a huge effect on her.
In the graveyard scene, voldemort promised to reward the Lestranges. This would seem to imply that Bellatrix's actions in attempt to find Voldemort were logical. Voldemort would not have appreciated Bellatrix's help if it had been a futile attempt and an excuse to vent.

horcrx4, i'm starting to think that those traits may have developed post azkaban. If Voldemort did depend on Bellatrix as much as she says, (and I don't think we have cause to doubt her), she must have been reliable at some point. Then again, torturing the Longbottoms was rather rash, so she might have first developed these traits in some sort of traumatic state after Voldemort's downfall and fostered them during confinement. What do you think?

I'm inclined to agree that her traits may have been made worse in Azkaban, but I think they must have been there before, latent perhaps. I doubt even Walburga was always as loony as she is in her portrait, or not even Orion would have been willing to marry her and put up with it. I think there's something hereditary there.

Jo says in the Rumours section of her website that the Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms. I'm curious as to who Bella was willing to take orders from when Voldemort had gone. I agree that she may have overdone the torturing with the Longbottoms because she was traumatised by the "defeat" of Voldemort, but neither her husband nor her brother-in-law nor Barty Jnr seem to have tried to stop it. Which makes me think it was "normal" for Bellatrix. Either that, or they all got a sort of blood-lust when they were doing it.

It's a shame that we never saw Bella while Voldy was in power; it would have given us more insight into her nature.

In the graveyard scene, voldemort promised to reward the Lestranges. This would seem to imply that Bellatrix's actions in attempt to find Voldemort were logical. Voldemort would not have appreciated Bellatrix's help if it had been a futile attempt and an excuse to vent.
The rewarding of the Lestranges has been mentioned a couple of times now, and I'd like to make a little comment concerning this quote: Voldemort may not be telling the truth. He may tell the other DEs of the reward awaiting the Lestranges because he wants others to show the same kind of loyalty - hoping they'll be rewarded. As for what kind of reward there was, I have no idea - but whatever it was, I'm pretty sure Bella and her husband exaggerated when they bragged to the other DEs about it. After all, "Voldemort thinks I'm more important than you are" seems to be a very popular verbal game among the DEs.

So why bother to mention this detail? Because it's important to point out that we don't know anything about any reward. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. What I'm convinced of, however, is that Bella doesn't think she got enough of a reward, compared to what she deserved. Voldemort is pragmatic. If unstable Bella is of lesser importance in more secret missions nowadays, the reward isn't that necessary. And she'll stay faithful to him whatever happens, in his opinion. But if Bella and her husband heard from the other DEs that a reward was in store for them, I highly doubt that they'd tell anyone if the reward never happened. That would be like saying they were out of favour with the dark lord. But perhaps that is exactly what happened, and a reason for Bella's apparent bitterness?...:shrug:

Personally I think Bellatrix knew somethig about Voldemort's horcruxes. She believed Voldemort was immortal. She had absolute certainty that Voldemort would rise again. I don't think that was her saving face in front of the Wizengamot. She was so irritatingly sure Voldemort would return. She knew things they didn't.

More or less. Back at the height of Voldemort's power he seemed invincible. Whatever he was he certainly wasn't human any more. He was winning the war and it seemed he had no weaknesses. No body knew how he was keeping himself alive and he had an army at his disposle. He could put up with Bellatrix's insanity because no matter what she did it wasn't going to hurt their cause. Now Harry has enough ammunition to put up more of a fight and he knows Voldemort's weakness. Bellatrix is loose enough that she might even let something slip. She's not a stable person and she thinks she is invulnerable. Its only a matter time before she gets what's coming to her.


Rowlign said Bellarix didn't know about the prophecy. She went after the Longbottoms so what was her reasoning than? Bellatrix seemed to believe Voldemort would return so she couldn't have thought the Longbottoms ran off the dark lord himself. Why target the longbottoms? Why not the Potters? Did she know about them at all? I think her reasons for targeting the Longbottoms might have to do with whatever it is they did to defy Voldemort three times.


Those dementors....they can take a toll on anyone. Look at the reactions of people who feel their presence for a small moment of time. Dudley, Harry, Hagrid, etc. It drains you. Can you imagine reliving your worst memories and fears all over again daily for years? It must leave a huge stain on your soul not to mention your mental state. Sirius seemed like some half crazed jack the ripper pyscho when he got out. Whatever issues Bellatrix had going in they only deepened while she was there. Of all the Black sisters she seems to be the one with the most issues. Narcissa knows how to keep her cool more. If Bellatrix had a son and someone dared threaten her little boy I have no doubt she'd start spitting out curses like there was no tomorrow.

I imagine she targeted the Longbottoms because she knew:

1) They were very good Aurors
2) They'd defied Voldemort three times
3) I don't think Voldemort would just go after Harry. I think he'd get rid of all people that prophecy could possibly apply to, so he was probably planning to go after the Longbottoms once he'd killed Harry. So she knew they were a target that was so important to Voldemort he was going to perform their murder himself, and straight after the Potters.

Yeah, the Dementors must be impossible to endure for so many years. Even Sirius was changed a lot by his time in Azkaban: and he was an Animagus and knew he was innocent, both of which he says helped him endure them. I'm sure Bellatrix (as far as we know possessing neither of these two defences) must have been really seriously affected by them.

In the graveyard scene, voldemort promised to reward the Lestranges. This would seem to imply that Bellatrix's actions in attempt to find Voldemort were logical. Voldemort would not have appreciated Bellatrix's help if it had been a futile attempt and an excuse to vent.

I think he was pleased with absolutely any show of loyalty after his disappearance, considering how little of this he got! But good point, still, I imagine he wouldn't appreciate Bellatrix just doing it because she felt angry. I also think if all she'd wanted to do is vent (if indeed at that time in her life she would have wanted to vent in that way) she'd have picked on Muggles rather than top Aurors.

The rewarding of the Lestranges has been mentioned a couple of times now, and I'd like to make a little comment concerning this quote: Voldemort may not be telling the truth. He may tell the other DEs of the reward awaiting the Lestranges because he wants others to show the same kind of loyalty - hoping they'll be rewarded. As for what kind of reward there was, I have no idea - but whatever it was, I'm pretty sure Bella and her husband exaggerated when they bragged to the other DEs about it. After all, "Voldemort thinks I'm more important than you are" seems to be a very popular verbal game among the DEs.

So why bother to mention this detail? Because it's important to point out that we don't know anything about any reward. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. What I'm convinced of, however, is that Bella doesn't think she got enough of a reward, compared to what she deserved. Voldemort is pragmatic. If unstable Bella is of lesser importance in more secret missions nowadays, the reward isn't that necessary. And she'll stay faithful to him whatever happens, in his opinion. But if Bella and her husband heard from the other DEs that a reward was in store for them, I highly doubt that they'd tell anyone if the reward never happened. That would be like saying they were out of favour with the dark lord. But perhaps that is exactly what happened, and a reason for Bella's apparent bitterness?...

Good point. I actually think, now you mention it, that Voldemort thinks along the same lines as Snape: he'd have preferred it if, like Snape, Bellatrix and co. had carried on working for him and trying to find him in a less obvious way rather than land themselves in prison where they were no use until he broke them out: a lot of work for him. I imagine he did say "well done" (but in rather more words!) in front of the others, like Lucius, but I don't think he gave them any other reward. Certainly by the way he blames Bella for the DoM failure his gratitude is short-lived. I don't think Voldemort is one to believe in things like gratitude and rewarding his followers. He prefers to use fear to keep them in line, and also I imagine he encourages the fact that they're always warring among themselves for his special favour. If he gave them any reward, I'd imagine it would be more to tempt people like Lucius to show greater loyalty than to keep the Lestranges' loyalty. After all, as you said, he thinks he can count on that anyway. Emphasis on "he thinks". If he carries on just treating them like tools to be used when needed and dropped whenever he feels like it, there's only so much of that anyone will stand before their loyalty starts to erode.

Personally I think Bellatrix knew somethig about Voldemort's horcruxes. She believed Voldemort was immortal. She had absolute certainty that Voldemort would rise again. I don't think that was her saving face in front of the Wizengamot. She was so irritatingly sure Voldemort would return. She knew things they didn't.
Bellatrix's conviction of the return of the Dark Lord at her trial before the Wizengamot is not surprising when one takes into account that Bellatrix is a fanatic. She is completely convinced that he is the greatest wizard who ever breathed air, and considering the fact that he made it known that he had experimented with methods of prolonging his life, it does not strike me as the least bit odd that Bellatrix thought Voldemort would come back. Now as for whether or not Bellatrix knew about the horcruxes, I really have no opinion to offer, except that Voldemort, for all his paranoia and cloack and dagger cr@p, probably didn't hand around an office memo every time he made a horcrux.

Now I know the response to my writing this will inevitably be "But Bellatrix thinks the Dark Lord is mistaken about Snape!" The only defense I can think of at the moment (forgive me; I have been chasing a six-year-old around all night and am a little too tired to be at the top of my game) is this: This is now, that was then (don't you love my clever little reversal?). That, and also to me, though she is loath to admit it, it seems as though Bellatrix thinks Snape is an extremely cunning, manipulative, rat who has weasled his way back into the Dark Lord's good graces in order to sabotage him and the Death Eaters in the end. Essentially, she attributes the blame entirely to Snape for (in her mind) being the one to pull the wool over the Dark Lord's eyes and none of the blame to her master for being the dupe.
Rowling said Bellarix didn't know about the prophecy. She went after the Longbottoms so what was her reasoning than? Bellatrix seemed to believe Voldemort would return so she couldn't have thought the Longbottoms ran off the dark lord himself. Why target the longbottoms? Why not the Potters? Did she know about them at all? I think her reasons for targeting the Longbottoms might have to do with whatever it is they did to defy Voldemort three times.
:huh: She did not target the Potters because they were dead. The Longbottoms were attacked in the aftermath of the fall of the Dark Lord, therefore torturing the Potters would really have no purpose. My guess would be she went for Frank Longbottom because he was a prominent Auror of well-known talent. By the way, does anyone know if both of the Longbottoms were Aurors, of if it was just the husband?

Bellatrix's conviction of the return of the Dark Lord at her trial before the Wizengamot is not surprising when one takes into account that Bellatrix is a fanatic. She is completely convinced that he is the greatest wizard who ever breathed air, and considering the fact that he made it known that he had experimented with methods of prolonging his life, it does not strike me as the least bit odd that Bellatrix thought Voldemort would come back. Now as for whether or not Bellatrix knew about the horcruxes, I really have no opinion to offer, except that Voldemort, for all his paranoia and cloack and dagger cr@p, probably didn't hand around an office memo every time he made a horcrux.

Now I know the response to my writing this will inevitably be "But Bellatrix thinks the Dark Lord is mistaken about Snape!" The only defense I can think of at the moment (forgive me; I have been chasing a six-year-old around all night and am a little too tired to be at the top of my game) is this: This is now, that was then (don't you love my clever little reversal?). That, and also to me, though she is loath to admit it, it seems as though Bellatrix thinks Snape is an extremely cunning, manipulative, rat who has weasled his way back into the Dark Lord's good graces in order to sabotage him and the Death Eaters in the end. Essentially, she attributes the blame entirely to Snape for (in her mind) being the one to pull the wool over the Dark Lord's eyes and none of the blame to her master for being the dupe.

:huh: She did not target the Potters because they were dead. The Longbottoms were attacked in the aftermath of the fall of the Dark Lord, therefore torturing the Potters would really have no purpose. My guess would be she went for Frank Longbottom because he was a prominent Auror of well-known talent. By the way, does anyone know if both of the Longbottoms were Aurors, of if it was just the husband?

I seem to remember Neville's grandmother says they both were in OOTP, but I don't have the book on me so I can't check!

Yeah, I think if Voldemort said he was immortal Bellatrix would believe him without needing to know how. I think you're spot on with "this is now, that was then": there's definitely been a change. And I get the same idea about Voldemort, I don't think he told anyone about his Horcruxes: or at least not that he had several

Neville's grandma did indeed say both of the Longbottoms were Aurors.

Well, Jo says the Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms. Obviously not by Voldemort as they went to try and find out where Voldy was. So by whom? It sounds as though someone else wanted the Longbottoms out of the way - and as Jo said it hinges on who knew about the prophecy (and she said the Lestranges didn't) there can't be that many candidates. Jo also said that the Lestranges went after Alice & Frank, not Neville, which doesn't sound as though it was an attempt to get rid of the other prophecy baby. I'd love to know what was behind it.

Were the Lestranges "rewarded" for going after the Longbottoms or for remaining faithful to Voldemort and being willing to go to Azkaban rather than lie low and keep safe? I incline to think the latter.

And what is the relationship between Bella and Barty Crouch Jnr? He is/was just as fanatical as Bella - the same type really. Why did he go with the Lestranges to torture the Longbottoms? I wouldn't have thought they'd have needed extra support. And he also firmly believed that Voldemort was alive - as soon as he threw off the Imperius curse he went to join Voldy. And he wouldn't have tortured the Longbottoms for that info if he hadn't thought Voldy was around. I wonder if Bella saw him as the son she never had?

Maybe before they were in Azkaban, Bellatrix and Barty Crouch Jr. worked together. They were both very loyal so they might have been put on some sort of mission together.

Bellatrix's conviction of the return of the Dark Lord at her trial before the Wizengamot is not surprising when one takes into account that Bellatrix is a fanatic. She is completely convinced that he is the greatest wizard who ever breathed air, and considering the fact that he made it known that he had experimented with methods of prolonging his life, it does not strike me as the least bit odd that Bellatrix thought Voldemort would come back. Now as for whether or not Bellatrix knew about the horcruxes, I really have no opinion to offer, except that Voldemort, for all his paranoia and cloack and dagger cr@p, probably didn't hand around an office memo every time he made a horcrux.

She may be a fanactic so I guess you could chalk it up to denial but I don't think so. She was convinced he would return greater than before and wreak his wrath upon them all once again. I mean saying something like that would make you seem borderline insane. It would seem completely irrational. Everyone else in the wizarding world believed Voldemort was dead and gone most importatly of all so did Dumbledore. They all believed the threaght was gone. HOWEVER Dumbledore for some reason started a search to figure out how voldemort kept himself alive. Voldemort was gone supposedly so why search out the keys to voldemort's immortality unless he thought he would be back? Dumbledore has been digging up information on Voldemort for years as he claimed in HBP. DD has known for years that Voldemort was doing something to himelf that was changing him inside and out. I think DD has been one of the few people who didn't exsist with a false sense of security. He is observant and knows how to piece obscure clues together. I think Bellatrix's crazed statements about Voldemort made DD take notice.

Also Lucius Malfoy possessed one of Voldemort's horcruxes. He didn't know it was a horcrux but Voldemort gave Lucius a man he just barely seems to trust but kept in his inner circle a precious horcrux. If Voldemort could hand a horcrux off to Lucius, I think he may have given one to Bellatrix because she would probably guard it the way Kreacher held on to his old masters trousers.

However I agree that Bellatrix probably didn't know Voldemort was using horcruxes. I think she knew he was keeping himelf immortal some how and believed him and I think Voldemort gave her one of his horcruxes to protect though she may not have known what it meant to Voldemort.

Neville's grandma did indeed say both of the Longbottoms were Aurors.

Actually, Dumbledore first tells Harry after he sees Bella in the Pensieve in GoF:

http://www.geocities.com/willowsevern/files/dumbledore4.html



"You know - you know the trial you found me in? The one with Crouch's son? Well....were they talking about Neville's parents?"

Dumbledore gave Harry a very sharp look. " Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?" he said.

Harry shook his head, wondering, as he did so, how he could have failed to ask Neville this, in almost four years of knowing him.

"Yes, they were talking about Nevilles parents," said Dumbledore. "His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard."

"So they're dead?" said Harry quietly.

"No," said Dumbledore, his voice full of a bitterness Harry had never heard there before. "They are insane. They are both in St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. I believe Neville visits them, with his grandmother, during the holidays. They do not recognize him."

Harry sat there, horror-struck. He had never known . . . never, in four years, bothered to find out. . .

"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledore. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe. Those attacks caused a wave of fury such as I have never known. The Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who had done it. Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their condition - none too reliable."

Then, of course, Gran says it again in OotP:



'Well, it's nothing to be ashamed of!' said Mrs Longbottom angrily. 'You should be proud, Neville, proudl They didn't give their health and their sanity so their only son would be ashamed of them, you know!'

'I'm not ashamed,' said Neville, very faintly, still looking anywhere but at Harry and the others. Ron was now standing on tiptoe to look over at the inhabitants of the two beds.

'Well, you've got a funny way of showing it!' said Mrs Longbottom. 'My son and his wife,' she said, turning haughtily to Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny, 'were tortured into insanity by You-Know-Who's followers.'

Hermione and Ginny both clapped their hands over their mouths. Ron stopped craning his neck to catch a glimpse of Neville's parents and looked mortified.

They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community' Mrs Longbottom went on. 'Highly gifted, the pair of them. I - yes, Alice dear, what is it?'

Neville's mother had come edging down the ward in her nightdress. She no longer had the plump, happy-looking face Harry had seen in Moody's old photograph of the original Order of the Phoenix. Her face was thin and worn now, her eyes seemed overlarge and her hair, which had turned white, was wispy and dead-looking. She did not seem to want to speak, or perhaps she was not able to, but she made timid motions towards Neville, holding something in her outstretched hand.

'Again?' said Mrs Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. 'Very well, Alice dear, very well - Neville, take it, whatever it is.'

But Neville had already stretched out his hand, into which his mother dropped an empty Drooble's Best Blowing Gum wrapper.

'Very nice, dear,' said Neville's grandmother in a falsely cheery voice, patting his mother on the shoulder.

But Neville said quietly, Thanks, Mum.'

His mother tottered away, back up the ward, humming to herself. Neville looked around at the others, his expression defiant, as though daring them to laugh, but Harry did not think he'd ever found anything less funny in his life.

'Well, we'd better get back,' sighed Mrs Longbottom, drawing on long green gloves. 'Very nice to have met you all. Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now.'

But as they left, Harry was sure he saw Neville slip the sweet wrapper into his pocket.

The diary Horcrux was given to Lucius for a REASON, though: to re-open the chamber of secrets, not just for safekeeping. Unless Voldemort had a Horcrux to perform a similar mission, I fail to see why he'd give one to Bellatrix just for her to keep it safe. It'd be far safer hidden like the locket was than kept in the home of a Death Eater who could be captured and her home searched at anytime.

We also don't know how fanatical Barty Jr was before Azkaban: at his trial he was desperately trying to get out of going to Azkaban, in contrast to the other three, particularly Bellatrix. I think the reason he is so fanatical after Azkaban could be that as he has already been given the biggest possible punishment and is a wanted man, he may as well fight really hard for Voldemort.

I agree that she knew he was immortal (or that he was confident he couldn't be killed, anyway), but that she didn't know how.

Actually, Dumbledore first tells Harry after he sees Bella in the Pensieve in GoF:

http://www.geocities.com/willowsevern/files/dumbledore4.html



"You know - you know the trial you found me in? The one with Crouch's son? Well....were they talking about Neville's parents?"

Dumbledore gave Harry a very sharp look. " Has Neville never told you why he has been brought up by his grandmother?" he said.

Harry shook his head, wondering, as he did so, how he could have failed to ask Neville this, in almost four years of knowing him.

"Yes, they were talking about Nevilles parents," said Dumbledore. "His father, Frank, was an Auror just like Professor Moody. He and his wife were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he lost his powers, as you heard."

"So they're dead?" said Harry quietly.

"No," said Dumbledore, his voice full of a bitterness Harry had never heard there before. "They are insane. They are both in St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. I believe Neville visits them, with his grandmother, during the holidays. They do not recognize him."

Harry sat there, horror-struck. He had never known . . . never, in four years, bothered to find out. . .

"The Longbottoms were very popular," said Dumbledore. "The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe. Those attacks caused a wave of fury such as I have never known. The Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who had done it. Unfortunately, the Longbottoms' evidence was - given their condition - none too reliable."

Then, of course, Gran says it again in OotP:



'Well, it's nothing to be ashamed of!' said Mrs Longbottom angrily. 'You should be proud, Neville, proudl They didn't give their health and their sanity so their only son would be ashamed of them, you know!'

'I'm not ashamed,' said Neville, very faintly, still looking anywhere but at Harry and the others. Ron was now standing on tiptoe to look over at the inhabitants of the two beds.

'Well, you've got a funny way of showing it!' said Mrs Longbottom. 'My son and his wife,' she said, turning haughtily to Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny, 'were tortured into insanity by You-Know-Who's followers.'

Hermione and Ginny both clapped their hands over their mouths. Ron stopped craning his neck to catch a glimpse of Neville's parents and looked mortified.

They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community' Mrs Longbottom went on. 'Highly gifted, the pair of them. I - yes, Alice dear, what is it?'

Neville's mother had come edging down the ward in her nightdress. She no longer had the plump, happy-looking face Harry had seen in Moody's old photograph of the original Order of the Phoenix. Her face was thin and worn now, her eyes seemed overlarge and her hair, which had turned white, was wispy and dead-looking. She did not seem to want to speak, or perhaps she was not able to, but she made timid motions towards Neville, holding something in her outstretched hand.

'Again?' said Mrs Longbottom, sounding slightly weary. 'Very well, Alice dear, very well - Neville, take it, whatever it is.'

But Neville had already stretched out his hand, into which his mother dropped an empty Drooble's Best Blowing Gum wrapper.

'Very nice, dear,' said Neville's grandmother in a falsely cheery voice, patting his mother on the shoulder.

But Neville said quietly, Thanks, Mum.'

His mother tottered away, back up the ward, humming to herself. Neville looked around at the others, his expression defiant, as though daring them to laugh, but Harry did not think he'd ever found anything less funny in his life.

'Well, we'd better get back,' sighed Mrs Longbottom, drawing on long green gloves. 'Very nice to have met you all. Neville, put that wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now.'

But as they left, Harry was sure he saw Neville slip the sweet wrapper into his pocket.


The reason I brought it up in the first place is because there appears to be conflicting information; for example, in the first quote you gave, from Goblet of Fire,Dumbledore only says that Frank Longbottom was an Auror and that he and his wife were tortured by Death Eaters. However, according to Neville's grandmother in Order of the Phoenix, both of Neville's parents were Aurors. It is not unusual for there to be inconsistencies in a work such as this; Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote the famous Sherlock Holmes short stories, gave the character Watson a migrating war wound. However, it is rather frustrating to readers because their can be no set answer (unless J.K. Rowling has definitively said that both Neville's parents were Aurors or that it was just his father--I have not read through the more recent interview transcripts).
She may be a fanactic so I guess you could chalk it up to denial but I don't think so. She was convinced he would return greater than before and wreak his wrath upon them all once again. I mean saying something like that would make you seem borderline insane. It would seem completely irrational. Everyone else in the wizarding world believed Voldemort was dead and gone most importatly of all so did Dumbledore. They all believed the threaght was gone. HOWEVER Dumbledore for some reason started a search to figure out how voldemort kept himself alive. Voldemort was gone supposedly so why search out the keys to voldemort's immortality unless he thought he would be back? Dumbledore has been digging up information on Voldemort for years as he claimed in HBP. DD has known for years that Voldemort was doing something to himelf that was changing him inside and out. I think DD has been one of the few people who didn't exsist with a false sense of security. He is observant and knows how to piece obscure clues together. I think Bellatrix's crazed statements about Voldemort made DD take notice.
I most definitely think that Bellatrix is borderline insane. That is why I find her so fascinating; sanity is rather boring. I suppose that is why I am borderline insane as well :p

And I think it is important to remember that while Bellatrix does not know the Dark Lord as well as she had deluded herself to believe, she certainly knows him a hell of a lot better than any Ministry official or average witch or wizard would. I am sure there is some sort of gossip mill among the varying echelons of Death Eaters and thus Bellatrix would be in a positon to know that Voldemort, through some shadowy unknown means, was able to become immortal.

The reason I brought it up in the first place is because there appears to be conflicting information; for example, in the first quote you gave, from Goblet of Fire,Dumbledore only says that Frank Longbottom was an Auror and that he and his wife were tortured by Death Eaters. However, according to Neville's grandmother in Order of the Phoenix, both of Neville's parents were Aurors. It is not unusual for there to be inconsistencies in a work such as this; Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote the famous Sherlock Holmes short stories, gave the character Watson a migrating war wound. However, it is rather frustrating to readers because their can be no set answer (unless J.K. Rowling has definitively said that both Neville's parents were Aurors or that it was just his father--I have not read through the more recent interview transcripts).
I think we have it from two reliable sources that Frank was an Auror, and if Gran says that Alice was also one , that's probably all we need to know about it. She would know - Alice was her daughter-in-law. She also adds they were both "gifted," which adds to Dumbledore's "popular." I don't see a problem.
I am sure there is some sort of gossip mill among the varying echelons of Death Eaters and thus Bellatrix would be in a positon to know that Voldemort, through some shadowy unknown means, was able to become immortal.
Why would Bella have to learn it through gossip? Voldemort loves to brag about his immortality. He says aloud to Harry in the graveyard in front of all the DEs that he has "never died," and that he's further along the road to immortality than any wizard has ever gone. Dumbledore implies that the horcruxes were, indeed, a sort of secret; Lucius had no idea what the Diary actually was. But before the DoM, I'm sure Voldemort mentioned his quest for immortality again to the DEs, including Bella, since he loves to talk about his evil plans.

it is not very bright on his part to talk about his evil plans as much as he does. Surely someone other than Dumbledore knows a little more than Voldemort thinks they do about his plans.

it is not very bright on his part to talk about his evil plans as much as he does. Surely someone other than Dumbledore knows a little more than Voldemort thinks they do about his plans.

It seems to be a done thing among literary bad guys to talk through the "how I did it" without getting on with what they were going to do! I shouldn't think Voldemort is much different! He must have boasted of having travelled a long way on the road to immortality and Bella is the type to believe him implicitly without demanding proof. Other more cynical DEs might have thought "Yeah, right" and ignored it as unlikely boasting. Thus they didn't think Voldy was still alive. Of course other DEs like Malfoy, were quite happy that Voldemort had vanished and were in no hurry to find him again. But Bella depended for her identity on Voldemort being alive, so she was obsessed with finding him and his coming back. If she wasn't a Death Eater, wasn't Voldy's most trusted servant, she was nothing.

It all depended on the relationship between each Death Eater and Voldemort. Those who were truely loyal, like Bellatrix, were thrown in jail. But there were some, like Malfoy, who were in no hurry to bring Voldemort back. It sort of makes you question which of the Death Eaters were/are really loyal to him or not.

...Well, Jo says the Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms. Obviously not by Voldemort as they went to try and find out where Voldy was.Actually, I don't see why NOT Voldy - as long as it was an order given before he disappeared. He could have alluded to the idea that they would know what happened. Remember they also had defied Voldy 3 times before Harry and Neville were born - so they were probably high up on the nuisance list already. As members of the Order
AND the Aurors they were the most likely ones to know what BOTH groups were up to. And so THAT might be why Voldy (before vaporizing) assumed that they would have the info on where he might be IF he ever turned out to be missing (and told Bella that if she could not find him then surely the Longbottoms would know (either because they were Aurors or because they were in the Order)

And what is the relationship between Bella and Barty Crouch Jnr? He is/was just as fanatical as Bella - the same type really. Why did he go with the Lestranges to torture the Longbottoms? I wouldn't have thought they'd have needed extra support. And he also firmly believed that Voldemort was alive - as soon as he threw off the Imperius curse he went to join Voldy. And he wouldn't have tortured the Longbottoms for that info if he hadn't thought Voldy was around. I wonder if Bella saw him as the son she never had?BartyJr was apparently an actual family member. I tend to wonder whether he replaced Regulus in Bella's team? But he is some kind of cousin to Bella - check out the Black Family Tree - one branch leads to the Longbottoms (altho' probably/possibly not actually to Frank & Alice) and the Crouches. Since BartyJr was the last Crouch, he was most probably from that line.

It all depended on the relationship between each Death Eater and Voldemort. Those who were truely loyal, like Bellatrix, were thrown in jail. But there were some, like Malfoy, who were in no hurry to bring Voldemort back. It sort of makes you question which of the Death Eaters were/are really loyal to him or not.
In a way, I feel that you are trying to play it off like Lucius is not a stauch supporter of the Dark Lord just because he did not run out and start torturing Aurors after Voldemort's fall. I personally tend to believe that this has more to do with differences between Lucius and Bellatrix's characters than who supports the Dark Lord 'more'. One must take into account that Lucius is a much more manipulative and calculating person than Bellatrix. Also, I believe that Lucius joined the ranks of the Death Eaters more for his own benefit than for a sense of purpose like Bellatrix did. Lucius seems to me like a man who is used to being pandered to because of his money and rank in society as the head of ancient wizarding house. Not only did Voldemort's ideals ring true with deeply held familial beliefs, but it offered him a chance to reassert his importance as a prominent follower of the Dark Lord and a member of his inner sect of high-ranking Death Eaters. In a way, I cannot help but think that Voldemort values Lucius's cold demeanor and coolheadedness over Bellatrix's protestations of undying devotion and rash behavior because he did give Lucius one of his Horcruxes for safekeeping and made him in charge of the disastrous mission to retrieve the prophesy from the Department of Mysteries. I think that this seeming preference for Lucius may contribute greatly to Bellatrix's willingness to heap the blame upon her brother-in-law for the DoM fiasco. Why am I feeling like I have lost my train of thought in addition to going off topic? :sigh: Probably because I have. Anyway, I suppose that the point I am trying to make is that Bellatrix and Lucius are two very different characters with very different motives, so it is sort of difficult to compare them.
I think we have it from two reliable sources that Frank was an Auror, and if Gran says that Alice was also one , that's probably all we need to know about it. She would know - Alice was her daughter-in-law. She also adds they were both "gifted," which adds to Dumbledore's "popular." I don't see a problem.
:huh: I do not see a problem, either, actually; my bringing it up was more my natural curiosity to see what others thought about the possible discrepency of accounts, is all. However, I most certainly agree with you that if we should take anyone's word as the authority, it should probably be Neville's grandmother.
Why would Bella have to learn it through gossip? Voldemort loves to brag about his immortality. He says aloud to Harry in the graveyard in front of all the DEs that he has "never died," and that he's further along the road to immortality than any wizard has ever gone. Dumbledore implies that the horcruxes were, indeed, a sort of secret; Lucius had no idea what the Diary actually was. But before the DoM, I'm sure Voldemort mentioned his quest for immortality again to the DEs, including Bella, since he loves to talk about his evil plans.
Again, I agree with you that Lord Voldemort is an incorrigible bragart in true super villian fashion. But I think that in the point I was attempting to make was that Bellatrix knows about Lord Voldemort's immortality. I am less concerned with how she learnt it, to be quite honest.
It seems to be a done thing among literary bad guys to talk through the "how I did it" without getting on with what they were going to do! I shouldn't think Voldemort is much different! He must have boasted of having travelled a long way on the road to immortality and Bella is the type to believe him implicitly without demanding proof. Other more cynical DEs might have thought "Yeah, right" and ignored it as unlikely boasting. Thus they didn't think Voldy was still alive. Of course other DEs like Malfoy, were quite happy that Voldemort had vanished and were in no hurry to find him again. But Bella depended for her identity on Voldemort being alive, so she was obsessed with finding him and his coming back. If she wasn't a Death Eater, wasn't Voldy's most trusted servant, she was nothing.
I know, I hate that about villians! While Lord Voldemort's bad-guy-reborn speech after his rebirth in Goble of Fire imparted some rather important information unto the readers, I could not help wanting to scream, "Get on with it already! You think I have all day?!"

About whose idea it was to go after the Longbottoms:
Actually, I don't see why NOT Voldy - as long as it was an order given before he disappeared. He could have alluded to the idea that they would know what happened. Remember they also had defied Voldy 3 times before Harry and Neville were born - so they were probably high up on the nuisance list already. As members of the Order
AND the Aurors they were the most likely ones to know what BOTH groups were up to. And so THAT might be why Voldy (before vaporizing) assumed that they would have the info on where he might be IF he ever turned out to be missing (and told Bella that if she could not find him then surely the Longbottoms would know (either because they were Aurors or because they were in the Order)
I don't entirely agree with you here, hwyla. It seems to me Voldemort had no idea of what might happen if someone tried to kill him. Voldemort overestimates himself in my opinion, and underestimates others. If he thought it possible that somebody might hit him with an AK and something might happen to his physical state (I don't believe he had any idea of the state he would be in if an AK hit him), I think he would have made some more preparations than telling some of the DEs to ask the Longbottoms for help. Did he fear them more than others? Did he fear the Aurors? The Order? He only feared Dumbledore. If the Longbottoms would be able to give any information on anything about Voldemort's state and whereabouts, it would be through their relationship to Dumbledore, I think. But I still don't see Voldemort even considering he might be rendered powerless in any way. He attacked the Potters for the fourth time, probably making changes from the three previous attacks that made him certain he'd succeed this time.

I hope you understand what I mean here, it's just that I can't see Voldemort giving such an order. But as horcrux4 says, Jo says the Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms (I don't know where this quote comes from, but I expect it's correct), and I have no idea who sent them. I just don't believe Voldemort did.

loveshopelost: I agree that Lucious is a staunch supporter of the dark lord, but i also think that Bellatrix is more so. Lucius cared more about his own comfort (and possibly he wanted to be there for Narcissa and Draco) than he did about finding Voldermot. Bellatrix cared more about finding Voldemort.

loveshopelost: I agree that Lucious is a staunch supporter of the dark lord, but i also think that Bellatrix is more so. Lucius cared more about his own comfort (and possibly he wanted to be there for Narcissa and Draco) than he did about finding Voldermot. Bellatrix cared more about finding Voldemort.
I thought about another difference between the two: Lucius seems to be very integrated in the magical world in general, he's got friends in the ministry and all that. I'm not sure if this was also the case prior to Voldemort's downfall, but I would believe so. We don't know much about Bellatrix on this point. Perhaps she was simply more dependent on Voldemort than Lucius was. He had got other things to do, but Bellatrix had only Voldemort. But I don't blame the circumstances for it, I blame Bellatrix herself. She had invested a lot in Voldemort, and when he vanished, I don't think there was a choice for her whether to look for him or not. If there was any reason for Bellatrix to believe that Voldemort was alive (and in my opinion she thought so because Voldemort had told her he had taken steps towards immortality), she had to do everything she could to find him. He was everything to her. Now, however, the situation has changed somewhat.

Yes, Lucius had no real reason to go out and look for Voldemort. He was more occupied with himself and his family. As crookkshanksfan said, Bellatrix was more dependent on Voldemort than Lucius.

Yes, I think that Bellatrix's whole identity was being a follower of the Dark Lord. That's all the self concept that she has.

yes, when Voldemort was gone Lucius just continued living his life but Bellatrix wanted to find him because she was pretty dependant on him, but Lucius cared more about his own life and did not want to get thrown into Azkaban.

I personally tend to believe that this has more to do with differences between Lucius and Bellatrix's characters than who supports the Dark Lord 'more'. One must take into account that Lucius is a much more manipulative and calculating person than Bellatrix. Also, I believe that Lucius joined the ranks of the Death Eaters more for his own benefit than for a sense of purpose like Bellatrix did.

This is all true, but whatever Lucius's reasons for joining LV were, it had to dawn on him sooner or later that there is little percentage in being a slave to a cruel master who forces one to take terrible risks for his own benefit and tortures one on a whim. I mean, did we ever hear of anybody actually profiting from service to Voldy? Of course, certain people enjoy living out their dark impulses and are addicted to power of life and death over fellow humans. I even think that it is true for Lucius... but not to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine that it is no coincidence that most of the DEs we know about joined up as young, gung-ho people and that so few tried to bring Voldy back. Yes, some may have thought that Voldy had died, but Lucius surely knew better, as even Fudge did. I think it likely that Lucius was secretly relieved that he was free again. He doubtlessly rememebered his DE days fondly, but he didn't want to relive them and was less than overjoyed when LV returned.
But Bellatrix was and is a true believer and really lives for being a DE, mortal risks, Cruciatus for failure and all. I imagine that she is also addicted to killing and torturing - it must give her incredible sense of power and control.


In a way, I cannot help but think that Voldemort values Lucius's cold demeanor and coolheadedness over Bellatrix's protestations of undying devotion and rash behavior because he did give Lucius one of his Horcruxes for safekeeping and made him in charge of the disastrous mission to retrieve the prophesy from the Department of Mysteries.

Well, my perception is that Lucius wasn't in the front ranks much during VW1. Yes, some sly imperiuses (with horrific results, but impossible to tie to him) and a bit of muggle torture, but nothing too risky. He was a "respectable" face of the DEs, their interface with the society and their lobbyist. As such, he was much less likely to be caught in the act than Bella... hence entrusting the horcrux to him.
IMHO, Lucius being ordered to lead the MoM mission was actually a punishment and ultimately stupid and damaging to Voldy. Lucius was much more useful to him in his former role. But Voldy was clearly angry at Lucius's desertion and furious at the destruction of the diary, not to mention increasingly frustrated by the failures in getting the prophesy. So, he made sure that Lucius couldn't slink back into normal life for the second time... he named him before the DEs in the graveyard and ordered him to the frontlines in the MoM.

Bellatrix, on the contrary, was always a fighter, probably in charge of the murder squads and such. That's why she was a favourite during VW1 and a liability when LV wanted to lie low - she isn't good at it. And she was still rather deranged from Azkaban and rearing to fight in the MoM, which was more damaging than helpful. But I imagine that she has been in her element again in HBP, with all those terroristic acts to carry out, even if LV didn't yet forgive her for the MoM. He just knows that his indifference is going to hurt Bellatrix worse than Cruciatus... though I don't doubt that she got lots of that too, after LV rescued her from the MoM. From his perspective, Voldy is probably ensuring that Bellatrix doesn't repeat her MoM mistake and fail him again... but he doesn't understand people too well. Instead of driving the lesson home and thus making her a more valuable follower, he is undermining her devotion.

As to who he "values" more, I think that he finds all of his better DEs entertaining and useful, each in their own way. They are his tools and his playthings and actually Voldy has been shown to be rather parsimonious with their lives so far. He didn't kill anybody for failure that we have seen - though some may have wished for it before he was done with them. LV has threatened Draco and Narcissa, but they aren't really DEs, just means to hurt Lucius in his eyes. Etc.

I hope you understand what I mean here, it's just that I can't see Voldemort giving such an order. But as horcrux4 says, Jo says the Lestranges were sent after the Longbottoms (I don't know where this quote comes from, but I expect it's correct), and I have no idea who sent them. I just don't believe Voldemort did.

The quote is on Jo's website, in the Rumours section. I don't have time to look it up now but I'll post it later.

I think that's an excellent synopsis maiab. I also think that Voldemort relies so much on fear and cruelty to command people that he can get it wrong with Bella who would react better to praise. She reminds me of a dog who fawns on its master and just wants to be noticed.

maiab, I also like your post :)
Bellatrix seems like type to have been doing a lot of dirty work, mostly because she'd love it so much. I feel like Lucius was supposed to retain contacts at the minstry and remain an influence there - that would help voldemort a lot. But Bellatrix doesn't have that kind of sublety. She wouldn't be able to hold up a pretense, so she was probably a high profile death eater with many deaths openly ascribed to her, her picture in the paper a lot etc.

She wouldn't be able to hold up a pretense, so she was probably a high profile death eater with many deaths openly ascribed to her, her picture in the paper a lot etc.

Well, not quite. Bellatrix did talk herself out of Azkaban initially, according to Crouch Sr. - although it may have been Malfoy influence that saved her and the Lestranges that time. So, obviously there wasn't any firm evidence against her. But I am quite sure that she was the best fighter among the DEs - after all, we have seen her take down 2 Aurors and Sirius in OoTP and even deflect DD's spells. All that just a few months out of Azkaban! She must have been very accomplished in magical combat during VW1. Also, I imagine that it was much easier for her to maintain equlibrium and to be discreet when she was doing what was important (and enjoyable) stuff in her own eyes - she is very like Sirius that way.
She was never caught, there was never any evidence against her until the Longbottoms - she must have been sufficiently sneaky and careful. The fact that she was somehow caught after/during the hit on Longbottoms was probably due to the fact that Voldy's fall made her deperate and reckless.

This is the quote from Jo's website:
The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him.

No they weren't. They were very definitely sent after Neville's parents. I can't say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.

She hasn't said much about it in the subsequent novels so I assume we are to find out more in book 7. But I find it a mystifiying remark.

This is all true, but whatever Lucius's reasons for joining LV were, it had to dawn on him sooner or later that there is little percentage in being a slave to a cruel master who forces one to take terrible risks for his own benefit and tortures one on a whim. I mean, did we ever hear of anybody actually profiting from service to Voldy? Of course, certain people enjoy living out their dark impulses and are addicted to power of life and death over fellow humans. I even think that it is true for Lucius... but not to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine that it is no coincidence that most of the DEs we know about joined up as young, gung-ho people and that so few tried to bring Voldy back. Yes, some may have thought that Voldy had died, but Lucius surely knew better, as even Fudge did. I think it likely that Lucius was secretly relieved that he was free again. He doubtlessly rememebered his DE days fondly, but he didn't want to relive them and was less than overjoyed when LV returned.
I would like to point out that because most of the book is related through Harry's eyes, we do not really know how the Death Eater hierarchy works or what rewards are reserved for those who serve the Dark Lord faithfully or do something reallyreallyreally helpul, and so on, so it is a little premature to assume that there is no payoff to serving Voldemort when we can have no way of knowing that. There must be something that makes it worth the many Death Eater's while. I can think of one right of the top of my head, a guess that I personally find very probable: to put it bluntly, the benefit of not being six feet under with a really pretty head stone that reads 'Here lies [fill-in-the-blank], who chose the moral high road [read: death] over reckless depravity towards the santity of human life and all that is holy [read: life]'. You would be surprised at all of the horrific things people will do when faced with death. Threatening to take someone's life away can be an incredible motivator, even if it is only prolonging it for a little while. You can bet that the Dark Lord knows this and has and will use[d] it to his advantage.

But this is only one of the many motivators; I am sure there are others. Power is another extremely likely one. Fore example, if you will excuse my bluntness of expression, it is rather obvious that Lucius Malfoy gets off on being in control, on having the upper hand, on being in a position to manipulate others, and being able to lord his power over the heads of others. Now I am sure the reply to this will be, 'Aha! But if he likes being in control so much, why does he lick the floor the Dark Lord walks on?' Simply put, because serving Voldemort and being in an upper echelon of Death Eaters gives him oppurtunities to exercise power that would not be open to him otherwise. Blah. How did this discussion get turned on to Lucius Malfoy anyway? I fear it was most likely my fault, somehow.
But Bellatrix was and is a true believer and really lives for being a DE, mortal risks, Cruciatus for failure and all. I imagine that she is also addicted to killing and torturing - it must give her incredible sense of power and control.
Bellatrix is a sadist, simply put. She delights in causing pain and suffering in others. She is also a sociopath; she feels no remorse for the lives she has taken or the pain and suffering she has caused. These are qualities she seems to share with the Dark Lord himself, many of the other Death Eaters, and, to some extent, even with her brother-in-law, though his sadism is much more refined and controlled, just like him.
IMHO, Lucius being ordered to lead the MoM mission was actually a punishment and ultimately stupid and damaging to Voldy. Lucius was much more useful to him in his former role. But Voldy was clearly angry at Lucius's desertion and furious at the destruction of the diary, not to mention increasingly frustrated by the failures in getting the prophesy. So, he made sure that Lucius couldn't slink back into normal life for the second time... he named him before the DEs in the graveyard and ordered him to the frontlines in the MoM.
I do not quite agree that the Dark Lord was punishing Lucius by making him in charge of the Department of Mysteries mission. If he wanted to punish Lucius for the Diary or some other such thing, he would have tortured him or something of the like, not put him in charge of a mission to retrieve an object that the Dark Lord believed was imperative for him to possess in order for him to defeat Harry Potter once and for all. It defies all logic. Voldemort may be many things, but stupid is not one of them. He chose to put Lucius in charge because he is an effective leader, he governs himself with icy self-control, and because he thought that he could get the job done. Apparently this confidence was misplaced, though to Lucius' credit (what little he seems to possess at this point) Harry's little band of teenagers were more on the ball that night than Voldemort's thugs.
Bellatrix, on the contrary, was always a fighter, probably in charge of the murder squads and such. That's why she was a favourite during VW1 and a liability when LV wanted to lie low - she isn't good at it. And she was still rather deranged from Azkaban and rearing to fight in the MoM, which was more damaging than helpful. But I imagine that she has been in her element again in HBP, with all those terroristic acts to carry out, even if LV didn't yet forgive her for the MoM. He just knows that his indifference is going to hurt Bellatrix worse than Cruciatus... though I don't doubt that she got lots of that too, after LV rescued her from the MoM. From his perspective, Voldy is probably ensuring that Bellatrix doesn't repeat her MoM mistake and fail him again... but he doesn't understand people too well. Instead of driving the lesson home and thus making her a more valuable follower, he is undermining her devotion.
I honestly doubt that Bellatrix was put in charge of...anything, really, because she is not a wise choice for a leader. She is rash and governed 100%by her emotions as she displayed so well in the Department of Mysteries. She is a bit unhinged and is thus somewhat of a liability in most situations. Her saving grace is her apparently undying devotion to the Dark Lord and his cause as well as the fact that she is a gifted and talented witch. Though it is hardly an admirable quality to possess, Bellatrix seems to have mastered the Dark Arts very well and is thus a good little protege and foot soldier.

There was probably a lot of evidence against Bellatrix that couldn't quite be linked to her, or that she could explain away with the imperius curse or something. I think that Voldemort would have liked a couple of high profile Death Eaters around to scare people with.

I also agree with loveshopelost that Bellatrix was probably never in charge. But she was probably trusted to operate on her own. Voldemort seems to be a good enough judge of people to know where their talents would best be put to use.

Bellatrix is a sadist, simply put. She delights in causing pain and suffering in others. She is also a sociopath; she feels no remorse for the lives she has taken or the pain and suffering she has caused. These are qualities she seems to share with the Dark Lord himself, many of the other Death Eaters, and, to some extent, even with her brother-in-law, though his sadism is much more refined and controlled, just like him. I very much agree with this :agree:

Voldemort is very good at choosing where most of peoples talents are. Bellatrix and Lucius both have their uses. I too doubt Voldemort would have put Bellatrix in charge of anything. This was shown in the department of mysteries when she tried to curse Harry because of him speaking about Voldemort in a way she did not like but Lucius remembered Voldemorts orders and he stuck to them making him a much better choice for being a leader even though he failed.

maiab, I also like your post :)
Bellatrix seems like type to have been doing a lot of dirty work, mostly because she'd love it so much. I feel like Lucius was supposed to retain contacts at the minstry and remain an influence there - that would help voldemort a lot. But Bellatrix doesn't have that kind of sublety. She wouldn't be able to hold up a pretense, so she was probably a high profile death eater with many deaths openly ascribed to her, her picture in the paper a lot etc.

I don't think so, you know. At the trial, Crouch said something about them wanting to bring LV back to "resume the lives of violence you PRESUMABLY led before his downfall". Also, only the torture of the Longbottoms is the only crime listed. This suggests to me that that is the only crime they have sufficient evidence for to prosecute with, suggesting that they had nothing to pin on Bellatrix before Voldy's downfall.

I honestly doubt that Bellatrix was put in charge of...anything, really, because she is not a wise choice for a leader. She is rash and governed 100%by her emotions as she displayed so well in the Department of Mysteries. She is a bit unhinged and is thus somewhat of a liability in most situations. Her saving grace is her apparently undying devotion to the Dark Lord and his cause as well as the fact that she is a gifted and talented witch. Though it is hardly an admirable quality to possess, Bellatrix seems to have mastered the Dark Arts very well and is thus a good little protege and foot soldier.

However, she does say that Voldemort has "entrusted me with his most precious..." His most precious what, we never find out, and the reliability of this statement is questionable, but it does suggest she was given some positions of trust in the first war. I think she was much less of a liability then though. She wouldn't be exactly like Lucius, but she doesn't seem to have been nearly as unhinged as she is after Azkaban.

Bella is a lot more reckless than Lucius, but sometimes that pays off. For example, when she tries to hex Harry and the others in the DoM, yes, she might have hit the prophecy had Lucius not interfered, but she might not have done and she might have got hold of it, which Lucius failed to do. So it's kind of tricky to say which is the better leader: Lucius was in that mission, but not in every mission. Sometimes boldness and whole-heartedness is called for. Certainly before azkaban, when she was more sane, she could have been very useful. After Azkaban, though, Voldemort can't give her so much in the way of trust and leadership positions, which she's bound to resent.

Kharina, I doubt that many death eaters could be positively proven to have done very much. But I picture a lot of deaths that couldn't quite be connected to Bellatrix, though circumstances would lead one to beleive that she was the murderer. I doubt that she was in the practice of leaving witnesses, so it would be hard to prove that she actually murdered anyone.

I didn't say it meant she wasn't doing a lot of DE activity, or that the Ministry suspected her, just that she wasn't killing and leaving really obvious evidence loads of times, with her photo in the paper a lot as a wanted DE, as you suggested. That's what I meant.

*whispers, "it got quiet in here"*

kharina -
so, remember when Mr. Weasly was telling the trio abou the dark mark? He says that the death eaters put it up every time they killed, and implies that the bodies were found inside the house. It looks like Death Eaters mainly killed where there were no witnesses and left no witnesses. So what you're saying makes sense.

Yeah, they didn't want to get caught. I guess that Voldemort's disappearance made Bellatrix more concerned about getting him back than getting caught, so she and the others were careless with the Longbottoms.

Yeah, they didn't want to get caught. I guess that Voldemort's disappearance made Bellatrix more concerned about getting him back than getting caught, so she and the others were careless with the Longbottoms.

Very probable. Also, he could have actively reined her in quite a bit. He seems to control every little movement of all his DE's, I can see Bella letting loose a little bit after Halloween '81. Not that she was happy that he was gone, by any means, but that she didn't him constantly watching every little move she made, and so she got a bit wreckless.
I forget, during the trial, did Crouch say how the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. were caught? In other words, how did the MoM know that it was them that tortured the Longbottoms? Did someone witness it? (I know, I know, discussion for another thread).

best,
la femme

Voldemort's dissapperance most likely made Bellatrix want to get him back so she was a bit reckless but I think she was probably more carful before that and being imprisoned in Azkaban.

Very probable. Also, he could have actively reined her in quite a bit. He seems to control every little movement of all his DE's, I can see Bella letting loose a little bit after Halloween '81. Not that she was happy that he was gone, by any means, but that she didn't him constantly watching every little move she made, and so she got a bit wreckless.
I forget, during the trial, did Crouch say how the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. were caught? In other words, how did the MoM know that it was them that tortured the Longbottoms? Did someone witness it? (I know, I know, discussion for another thread).

best,
la femme


We hear Crouch say that they have "seen the evidence against them" but we have no clue what that is. We actually don't have a lot of evidence to say they were guilty. The only thing we have is Bellatrix's angry rant at Crouch, but nothing for the other three. She does say 'we' but does that mean her and Rodolphus, her, Rodolphus and Rabastan or all four? Although I guess the other three aren't the subject for this topic, so I'll shut up now!

Maybe Bellatrix wanted to get sent to Azkaban. If her whole identity was centered around being a servant of Voldemort, then being in Azkaban was a fulfillment of that identity. I'm not saying that she went out to the Longbottoms with that agenda in mind - but when she found out that they didn't have the information they needed, Bellatrix went farther and did not try to get out of sentencing (by saying that she was imperiused etc).

Maybe Bellatrix wanted to get sent to Azkaban. If her whole identity was centered around being a servant of Voldemort, then being in Azkaban was a fulfillment of that identity. I'm not saying that she went out to the Longbottoms with that agenda in mind - but when she found out that they didn't have the information they needed, Bellatrix went farther and did not try to get out of sentencing (by saying that she was imperiused etc).

I wouldn't say 'want' but for the rest I agree with you. Bella is a fanatic and has obviously pleasure in torturing others. However, she is far from being stupid. I think she would have preferred freedom because this meant the freedom to act on her sadism. But when she was caught she was too much of a fanatic to deny her loyalties. She acted like a second in command and sat down like a queen. Either she knew or she guessed that Voldemort would return some day.

Maybe Bellatrix wanted to get sent to Azkaban. If her whole identity was centered around being a servant of Voldemort, then being in Azkaban was a fulfillment of that identity. I'm not saying that she went out to the Longbottoms with that agenda in mind - but when she found out that they didn't have the information they needed, Bellatrix went farther and did not try to get out of sentencing (by saying that she was imperiused etc).
I am slightly confused as to your meaning when you say this--do you perhaps mean that Bellatrix subconsciously went about and did things that would result in her incarceration because she could not imagine an existence without the Dark Lord and going to prison was the only way for her to remain openly true to her master? I suppose that this is possible, but I think it much more likely that Bellatrix, fanatical as she is, would not rest easily and would stop at nothing until she found some clue as to the whereabouts of Lord Voldemort, and as the result of the crimes committed during that search, she wound up being brought in on charges of torturing two prominent members of the wizarding community (who also happened to be members of the Order of the Phoenix).

I wouldn't say 'want' but for the rest I agree with you. Bella is a fanatic and has obviously pleasure in torturing others. However, she is far from being stupid. I think she would have preferred freedom because this meant the freedom to act on her sadism. But when she was caught she was too much of a fanatic to deny her loyalties. She acted like a second in command and sat down like a queen. Either she knew or she guessed that Voldemort would return some day.

Bellatrix knowing that Voldemort would return could be related to the theory that he gave her a horcrux. At Spinners End, she mentioned that Voldemort had entrusted her with his most precious. The most logical assumption would be that the precious was a horcrux. If she had had full knowledge with what Voldemort entrusted her with, she would have been expecting him to return, so going off to find him would be the logical thing to do for her.

I am slightly confused as to your meaning when you say this--do you perhaps mean that Bellatrix subconsciously went about and did things that would result in her incarceration because she could not imagine an existence without the Dark Lord and going to prison was the only way for her to remain openly true to her master? I suppose that this is possible, but I think it much more likely that Bellatrix, fanatical as she is, would not rest easily and would stop at nothing until she found some clue as to the whereabouts of Lord Voldemort, and as the result of the crimes committed during that search, she wound up being brought in on charges of torturing two prominent members of the wizarding community (who also happened to be members of the Order of the Phoenix).
Sort of -
I think that Bellatrix set out to the Longbottoms with full intentions to find clues to Voldemort's whereabouts. Then she got frustrated because she wasn't getting anywhere and let loose. Then she got caught, but had the opportunity to at least try to get out of punishment - instead she went to azkaban - and I think it was because she knew that she didn't have any way to find Voldemort, and going to prison would still be serving him.

Sort of -
I think that Bellatrix set out to the Longbottoms with full intentions to find clues to Voldemort's whereabouts. Then she got frustrated because she wasn't getting anywhere and let loose. Then she got caught, but had the opportunity to at least try to get out of punishment - instead she went to azkaban - and I think it was because she knew that she didn't have any way to find Voldemort, and going to prison would still be serving him.

I agree whole-heartedly. Personally, I think that by the time Voldemort met his downfall at the Potters' home, Bella was one of the Death Eaters in his inner circle already, and probably knew about the prophecy. To me, it's in fact no coincidence that she came after the Longbottoms - perhaps she thought that as they were in the prophecy they were connected to her Lord in some odd magical way. She was probably the leader in the Longbottom mission, I really wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be so.

As to going to prison for Voldemort, I don't think Bella ever lost faith in him. She is a character blinded by her fanatism for the Dark Lord, only because she enjoys cruelty - I do believe she is quite a wicked character. Her being driven into Azkaban so calmly is clearly proof of how insane and faithful to Voldemort she is.

I just saw a documentary yesterday about the followers of murderer Charles Manson - most of whom were women. They killed for him, followed his instructions in prison to shave their heads and put an X on their foreheads, and some of them crawled through the streets of Los Angeles to show their loyalty. Years later, one of them tried to assassinate President Ford because she wanted to get into the prison just to see Manson again. That's the sort of fanatical follower that Bellatrix is, in my opinion, with Voldemort as the charismatic murderer who inspires her.

I just saw a documentary yesterday about the followers of murderer Charles Manson - most of whom were women. They killed for him, followed his instructions in prison to shave their heads and put an X on their foreheads, and some of them crawled through the streets of Los Angeles to show their loyalty. Years later, one of them tried to assassinate President Ford because she wanted to get into the prison just to see Manson again. That's the sort of fanatical follower that Bellatrix is, in my opinion, with Voldemort as the charismatic murderer who inspires her.

Wow. :eeep: I never knew all that about Charles Manson followers. Yes, I guess Voldemort has the same kind of appeal to Bellatrix. He said so himself, he can be very persuasive. And now there is no doubt...

...yep, Bella is indeed, insane.

Those followers of Charles Manson really do sound like Bellatrix. It's amazing how much power some people can have over others.

I agree whole-heartedly. Personally, I think that by the time Voldemort met his downfall at the Potters' home, Bella was one of the Death Eaters in his inner circle already, and probably knew about the prophecy. To me, it's in fact no coincidence that she came after the Longbottoms - perhaps she thought that as they were in the prophecy they were connected to her Lord in some odd magical way. She was probably the leader in the Longbottom mission, I really wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be so.


JKR has already stated clearly on her website that the Lestranges had no knowledge of the prophecy, so they could not have targeted the Longbottoms for that reason. I think it's simply because the Longbottoms were not only Order members, but also aurors who were well-liked by the majority of the magical world. As Order members and aurors, they were some of the most likely people to have information about Voldemort, and as they were well-liked by the magical world, attacking them made for a good statement.

Wow, SIP, good comparison, thanks for sharing. I wonder if Bellatrix did think that communicating with someone in azkaban could help - or if she just wanted company of fellow loyal Death Eaters.

That is a good comparison. I do not think Bellatrix wanted to get caught and sent to Azkaban to see other Death Eaters or find someone who could help though. she probably would have prefered to just keep searching for Voldemort and finding information on his whereabouts rather than staying in Azkaban unable to search for him or do much at all.

JKR has already stated clearly on her website that the Lestranges had no knowledge of the prophecy, so they could not have targeted the Longbottoms for that reason. I think it's simply because the Longbottoms were not only Order members, but also aurors who were well-liked by the majority of the magical world. As Order members and aurors, they were some of the most likely people to have information about Voldemort, and as they were well-liked by the magical world, attacking them made for a good statement.

Oh! I didn't know that. Forgive my ignorance :blush:. In that case, I agree with you - the Longbottoms were probably hunted down for being members of the Order and popular among the community. That aside, they were also very active members of the Order, having escaped Voldemort himself three times. I guess it was, in a way, Bella's way of avenging her missing leader.

Um, forgive me if I have my canon jumbled, but weren't the Longbottoms tortured because the Lestranges and Barty Jr. thought they knew where to find Vapormort?

Um, forgive me if I have my canon jumbled, but weren't the Longbottoms tortured because the Lestranges and Barty Jr. thought they knew where to find Vapormort?

No, I don't think so, I remember the same thing. However, I think that they probably thought this because they were really important members of the Order, and not because they knew anything about the Prophecy.

I never thought they knew about the prophecy, just that they were under the delusion that the Longbottoms knew something about their master.
But the Longbottoms' status could have been one of the factors. It would make them good targets too, since powerful and influential aurors being taken down might cause panic.

she probably would have prefered to just keep searching for Voldemort and finding information on his whereabouts rather than staying in Azkaban unable to search for him or do much at all.
Then why do you think bellatrix did not try to worm her way out a jail sentence? I think that after she failed at the Longbottom's she knew no other way to find voldemort, so she went willingly to azkaban to continue serving him there by default.

I've got to say I've never understood why the Longbottoms were attacked. Granted, they were Order members and Aurors, but Bella probably viewed Voldemort as invincible. In addition, I think Voldemort had told her something about taking steps to achieve immortality, and she gladly believed him. The way I see it, she didn't have a clue about what was going on when Voldemort disappeared. And when he didn't return, she (along with the two other Lestranges and Crouch Jr.) got desparate and decided to attack some of the most powerful members of the Order side (she was sane enough not to take on Dumbledore) because there was a tiny chance they might know something. As for accepting imprisonment in Azkaban, it's not really that surprising. My guess is she didn't think it would last for long anyway. The Dark Lord would be back soon, and she'd be graciously rewarded. I don't think it ever occurred to her that it would take so long for Voldemort to rise again.

Um, forgive me if I have my canon jumbled, but weren't the Longbottoms tortured because the Lestranges and Barty Jr. thought they knew where to find Vapormort?

That's what Crouch Sr. says during the trial, that they caputured and tortured Frank and Alice Longbottom because they were believed to have knowledge of the whereabouts of Vapormort. The Lestranges and Barty Jr. were sent after the Longbottoms (according to Jo's site), so the real question is WHO sent them? I really don't think that Bella et al, knew about the prophecy until they were sent to retrieve it in OotP, and even then they probably didn't know the details. Remember that Dumbledore tells Harry that most of Voldy's DE's are deluded in thinking that he shares his secrets with them and confides in them. Dumbledore said that Voldy prefers to operate alone, and he always has. I believe that Bella is just as deluded as Dumbledore suggests, that Voldy keeps her (and all of the other DE's) strictly on a need-to-know basis. And even when they do "need-to-know" they certainly are only given an overview, only the intrinsic details. The DE's operate (in my opinion) completly on blind faith of Voldy, therefore the order to hunt down and torture the Longbottoms was probably one they didn't need to hear twice.

best,
la femme

I wonder if their instructions were to torture the Longbottoms or just to get information from them by any means? Why did someone think the Longbottoms would know where Voldemort was? They weren't at Godric's Hollow when Voldy evaporated. Whoever was there, (and it seems evident that someone was there besides Voldemort - who took his wand if not?) seems the most likely person to know where Voldy had gone. The information was out there somewhere or Wormtail wouldn't have known to go to Albania. Why didn't Bella know that? Do other DEs keep secrets from her?

I would think they acted on their own initiative and since Neville was the 'other' contender for the prophecy, they went after the Longbottoms.

I would think they acted on their own initiative and since Neville was the 'other' contender for the prophecy, they went after the Longbottoms.

Ha! I found it! (I think I have too much time on my hands here at work...:whistle:) It's not terribly informative, but it is very certain:
From Jo's Website
Section: Rumours
The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him
No, they weren’t, they were very definitely sent after Neville’s parents. I can’t say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.
Emphasis is my own, but I think that Jo is very careful about what she says (or writes) and wouldn't have used the word "sent" if it wasn't correct. This also kills two birds with one stone, Bella knew nothing about the prophecy until OotP. "The Lestranges were not in on the secret." Hmmm.... Was Barty Jr.?
Anyway, back to Bella. Since she didn't know about the prophecy when they (Bella et al) tortured the Longbottoms, just how high up in the DE ranks was Bella? Was she too much of a liability for Voldy to give a lot of responsibilities to? What exactly does she consider his "most precious" secret (I'm assuming) that he has supposedly shared with her?

best,
la femme

Thanks for pointing that out La Femme... I hadn't read that quote.

I don't see Bella following anyone's orders except Voldemort... so did LV actually have a contingency plan? Something along the lines of "if I fail with Harry fo after the Longbottoms?" and if yes... why the longbottoms?

Alternatively, Lucius may have sent Bella - provided he knew about the prophecy. Or... since he's the only one who knew about the prophecy, Snape could've sent them which may explain why Bella hates Snape so much, because it was due to his 'order' that she ended in Azkaban.

I hate Bellatrix Lestrange. She's very evil, cruel and obsessed with Moldy Voldy. She treats anyone younger then herself as though they were all babies. For instance the time she met Harry. She spoke to him as though he was still a baby. She likes to taunt..and she doesn't trust Snape. As hard to believe as this might sound...I think I do trust Snape. She seems to know that Snape's up to something or that he's sort of changed his loyalty to someone else. If she's right then she has every reason to not trust him...but part of her is just jealous. She wants Moldy to pay as much attention to her as he does to Snape. She also wishes that she was given such important tasks as Snape. I think along with her obsession with Moldy...she may actually be more evil and devoted to him then Lucius...another character I dislike.

I hate Bellatrix Lestrange. She's very evil, cruel and obsessed with Moldy Voldy. She treats anyone younger then herself as though they were all babies. For instance the time she met Harry. She spoke to him as though he was still a baby. She likes to taunt..and she doesn't trust Snape. As hard to believe as this might sound...I think I do trust Snape. She seems to know that Snape's up to something or that he's sort of changed his loyalty to someone else. If she's right then she has every reason to not trust him...but part of her is just jealous. She wants Moldy to pay as much attention to her as he does to Snape. She also wishes that she was given such important tasks as Snape. I think along with her obsession with Moldy...she may actually be more evil and devoted to him then Lucius...another character I dislike.
:welcome: SB_Padfoots_G
I think I don't like death eaters in general...:lol: (by the way, i like the moldy voldy name for voldemort ;))

so anyway, I think that Bellatrix taunts everyone who doesn't hold up to her standards (which are, Voldemort is everything, serve him). She taunts Sirius quite a bit as well. And I REALLY hated her conversation with Neville, when she announces that she "met" his parents, that was really low.

I think that's also the reason that she doesn't trust Snape - He doesn't hold up to her standards, and that's just unaccebtable in her eyes. But she would be totally unsuitable for spying, she lacks snape's sublety.

As for Lucius, we've spent a lot of time comparing Bellatrix to Lucius. And Lucius just isn't devoted to Voldemort at the same level that Bellatrix is. It's only the very top of his priority list when he's scared of reprucusions, or if it goes along with his snobbery complex. But he wasn't willing to brave azkaban for it, and that's not acceptable to bellatrix.

Thank you. I agree...she has a level of standards that she believes all followers of Moldy should have. And that coversation with Neville...was the lowest of low. But I think at the end of that conversation...it helped Neville to become stronger and more willing to practise his defensive magic. So even though Bellatrix is crude and evil...in the end she did benefit someone. So there was a good side her, without her even knowing it. Also, that's why I said that she was more loyal and evil then Lucius. It's true...she risked Askaban, and he didn't. She was obsessed and that led her to a rock prison.

This is the character i hate the most. Evil, the woman has clear inhumain issues that in my mind resemble those of the nazzi.. i have always compaired Voldemort to Hitler, the idea of superior blood, the fact that they themselves did not fit the program.. (Hitler was not precisely blond and blue eyed, amongst other things) the world domination and all the traits of cruel dictatorship that want to excuse themselves in a bad childhood or birth...Bellatrix is just what JK wishes people not to emulate, cruel, vindictive and vicious. She's the worst kind of people, the ones that have a choice, brought up with niceties and wealth and think better of themselves because of it, and what's more terrible think that those who didn't, actually deserve the kinda of nasty punishments that she enjoys inflicting on those who she deems unworthy. The Black family clearly belongs in the ranks of the would be' Voldy supporters. Ridiculously addicted to the idea of pure blood, EDIT: not family friendly.. which nature proves is just wrong..Bella is just a descendant of this enviroment, how ever this is not an excuse. Sirius was born there and was disgusted by them because of it, it's just what the book teaches you: You ALways have a choice.

EDIT (by Jessica): Off topic and insulting to other members.

I agree that Bella had a choice to be what she became or to turn her back on it all as Sirius did. However the Sorting hat found something in Sirius that made him right for Gryffindor whereas with Bella and all the other Blacks it saw the Slytherin qualities. I wonder if she had the capacity to make the decision to turn her back on the dark side? Some decisions are easier for one person to make than another, depending on their circumstances, personality and experience. We don't know what Bella's childhood was like and whether she was always a torturer. Narcissa hasn't turned out like that.

I'm not sympathising with Bella by the way! I think she is a nasty piece of work and a character who is probably irredeemable. It will take more than disillusionment with Voldemort to knock the torturer out of her in my opinion. But she may get the opportunity to show a better side of herself if she chooses to help her sister and nephew, particularly if that is against Voldemort's wishes. I'm not sure if I hope she does or not - I want Neville to avenge his parents!!

I think that comparing Bellatrix to Sirius is interesting. They must have grown up with similar influences and affluence - yet they took such a different approach to life. Sirius' actions may not have always been the best, but he was going in the right direction. Bellatrix seems to just have gone with the flow here. And manically so. I wonder what their childhood interactions were like.

(does anyone know their age difference?)

I think their age difference is pretty big, of about ten years or so, hang on. *checks on the Black Family Tree* Yep, nine years older in fact, assuming Sirius was born in 1960.

Sirius and Bella are similar in many ways. They both passionately support what they believe is right. They're both rash and defiant and too frequently driven by their impulses and personal wants (in Sirius' case unconsciously mostly). Their influences were only different. Sirius chose to be the black sheep and go totally against his family's desire, whereas Bella fulfills the stereotype of sanguinary, obscure member of the Black family.

I think Bellatrix really did hate. I couldn't see knowing any kind of love at all. That was something that Sirius possessed. His ability to love. She is obsessed with Moldy, but not necessarily in love with him. She's loyal to him...but there's no proof that means she loves him. Bellatrix is all about the hate...she only knows evil things, and goes by the evil ways that Moldy has told her is right...for she will be protected by him if she dose as he says. And she's scared of going against him...so we know she possesses fear. So she does know things can be wrong...but to her, they're not. I can't stand this character...everytime I read her name on the page...I want to rip the page...but I don't cause I like my books as whole books.

I agree that Bellatrix is not in any way a loving character. Passionate, yes, but that's not the same thing. I think she can feel loyalty - to her family as well as Voldy - but whether she has any softer feelings for Narcissa or for her husband come to that, I find it hard to imagine.

Although I agree that she is a hateful character I don't object to her quite as much as people like Umbridge who are pretending to be nice on the outside and are cruel at heart. At least Bella is honest about who and what she is.

Passionate is a good word to descibe Bellatrix, and honest. I think that people like Umbridge are worse than people like Bella because they are in a position of power and they pretend to be doing the right thing when they are really just making the situation worse.

Passionate is a good word to descibe Bellatrix, and honest. I think that people like Umbridge are worse than people like Bella because they are in a position of power and they pretend to be doing the right thing when they are really just making the situation worse.
They are worse in different ways I think. Umbridge is out to get you, and she'll enjoy it too. But she plays by the rules - she's predictable, so it's possible to get around her. Bellatrix doesn't play by any rules. She's like that annoying person in chess who sacrafices all her peices so that it's impossible to protect your own.

Then why do you think bellatrix did not try to worm her way out a jail sentence? I think that after she failed at the Longbottom's she knew no other way to find voldemort, so she went willingly to azkaban to continue serving him there by default.

If she tryed to worm her way out of a jail sentence she would have to deny working for Voldemort or say she was imperised which she would not do because she is very loyal to Voldemort. I also think Umbridge is worse than Bellatrix and I hate Umbridge alot she is so evil if you are on her bad side.

If she tryed to worm her way out of a jail sentence she would have to deny working for Voldemort or say she was imperised which she would not do because she is very loyal to Voldemort.
or she could have done that and continued to look for voldemort. this is why i think something at the longbottoms made her think she'd reached a dead end.

She could have but that would have made Voldemort furious if she denied working for him and then also failed finding him so she did make a smart decision just staying in Azkaban because in Gof Voldemort said they would be rewarded. she could have just been thinking along those lines it does not mean she reached a dead end at Longbottom's house.

1. Bellatrix is often seen as the most fanatical of Voldemort's supporters. Why do you think it is that she has devoted her life and efforts so wholly to Voldemort? What influences in her family and life could have led to her becoming one of the most feared Death Eaters? Could she have any romantic feelings for Voldemort?

:lol: I've known a few people who thought there was something between Voldemort and Bellatrix. I think probably her fanatism made her adore him, it can be taken as love and it's quite similar, but I picture her atraction to him closer to the one between a fan and her idol rather than actual love.

I blame it all on her family. Even if the Black's were lucky to produce some extraordinary, well directed wizards such as Andromeda or Sirius, they were a family of fanatics themselves and Bellatrix didn't have much chance but to come out the way she did.

2. What do you suppose leads Bellatrix to distrust Snape so, as seen in the HBP chapter 'Spinner's End'? Does this cast any doubts upon her complete trust in Voldemort? Does it speak of any prior relationship with Snape?

I don't think she would doubt Voldemort. I think her distrust of Snape comes simply from the fact that she sees him as a traitor. Not only he escaped Azkaban by cleaning his name (like Lucius and many others did), while she was trapped there, faithful to her Master to the end; he also alieged with Voldemort's most powerful enemy, Dumbledore.

I think Bellatrix has the same problem with Snape than we do, where does he stand? Is it true what he said about turning to his side, or is it still with Hogawrt's Headmaster? I don't think she doubts Voldemort, maybe she fears he's being tricked without knowing and feels it's her duty, as loyal servant, to warn him.

I also think there's another factor. Which is Voldemort forgave Snape, not only having abandoned him, but also gone to the oposite band. Bellatrix is probably jealous, she was faithful, she did everything right, then why does Snape get the easy way out? And why do both of them rank equally? Shouldn't she deserve more?

3. What kind of relationship do you think that Bellatrix had with her cousin, Sirius, for her to so easily battle against, and ultimately have a hand in killing him?

I see Bellatrix as a black & white kind of person. Either you're with her, or you're not. Sirius wasn't, then he's her enemy, it doesn't matter which bounds they might share. She will kill him as easily as his mother erased him from the tapestry and called him "blood traitor" every time she spotted him.

4. Bellatrix is said to have been at school and joined forces with several other Death Eaters prior to Harry's parents being at Hogwarts. What factors do you see as contributing to the turning of Bellatrix and her peers to Voldemort, and how could they have gotten away with this in the middle of Hogwarts?

I'll answer the same I answered in the first question. Family and they way you're brought up has a lot to do with the way you come out. As far as doing it while being in Hogwarts... take a look at Draco. Besides Voldemort was at his highest back then, it would have been two times as hard to spot who was on which side.

5. Bellatrix seems to have a fondness for the Cruciatus curse. What do you think that this says about her personality and history?

Nothing good, that's for sure. I think she's all about feeling surperior, can't see much more reasons in pointing a wand at someone and watch them twist and shake at the floor to the point of madness. She was taught that she was superior, the moment she doubts it she'll be lost, so she needs to make sure that doesn't happen, she needs to go on proving herself that she can do that to a person and get away with it.

6. What role do you see Bellatrix playing in book seven? Will she finally get her come-uppance for her crimes, and if so, who will dish this out?

I really hope so. I think she will have a good role, she's an interesting character and her role has grown along with the books. The way I see it she will probably see glory before sinking again, I picture her becoming one of Voldemort's Leutenant's or something of that sort.

Who will dish her out? Well I think Harry would love to do it, but it'd be nice to see Neville take her. The poor boy deserves it and it would give him a good closure.

Nice post, Puchula :)
I've known a few people who thought there was something between Voldemort and Bellatrix. I think probably her fanatism made her adore him, it can be taken as love and it's quite similar, but I picture her atraction to him closer to the one between a fan and her idol rather than actual love.
I agree with you here. Bellatrix would have been quite young when she joined. She probably hero-worshiped Voldemort and felt priveleged to join up.

I blame it all on her family. Even if the Black's were lucky to produce some extraordinary, well directed wizards such as Andromeda or Sirius, they were a family of fanatics themselves and Bellatrix didn't have much chance but to come out the way she did.
Although Bellatrix's family influenced her, I don't think that you can remove blame for any of her actions. Bellatrix did have a choice - she had a choice every single time she killed or tortured someone for enjoyment. But she made the wrong choice.

Although Bellatrix's family influenced her, I don't think that you can remove blame for any of her actions. Bellatrix did have a choice - she had a choice every single time she killed or tortured someone for enjoyment. But she made the wrong choice.
You're right. I probably didn't chose the right words to express myself. She had her choice and that's what sets her appart from her own sister Andromeda or her cousin Sirius. What I meant to say was that she didn't need any other reason than her family to turn out the way she did.

You're right. I probably didn't chose the right words to express myself. She had her choice and that's what sets her appart from her own sister Andromeda or her cousin Sirius. What I meant to say was that she didn't need any other reason than her family to turn out the way she did.
Oh that's definately true :)
Bellatrix spent her whole life inundated with pure blood supremacy. She surely thought it a privelege to join Voldemort. I wonder what Bellatrix would have been like in a different family. Would she have turned to evil, or would she have been just as passionate about a different ideal? I feel like she would have always had tendencies toward violence (she takes such pleasure in it), but I'm sure that this trait was something that Voldemort encouraged in her.

Oh that's definately true :)
Bellatrix spent her whole life inundated with pure blood supremacy. She surely thought it a privelege to join Voldemort. I wonder what Bellatrix would have been like in a different family. Would she have turned to evil, or would she have been just as passionate about a different ideal? I feel like she would have always had tendencies toward violence (she takes such pleasure in it), but I'm sure that this trait was something that Voldemort encouraged in her.
I don't know. I see that violence, or lack of it, usualy come along with ideologies. I don't know if she would have turned out that violent if raised in a muggle loving family such as, say, the Weasleys.

Also violence is usualy connected to a lack of self steem. If you are sure of yourself then you don't need to force things on others. I wonder why Bellatrix needed to act in such way.

Also violence is usualy connected to a lack of self steem. If you are sure of yourself then you don't need to force things on others. I wonder why Bellatrix needed to act in such way.
I know this sounds horrible, but I picture Voldemort really playing with Bellatrix's head when she first joined up. He would fulfill enough of her emotional needs that she'd join him, but then he's push her down in other ways (small manipulative ways) - just enough to get her to put feeling in all the death and pain she caused.

Bellatrix was born in a highly important, kind of wicked, and ancient family. I think that's more that enough to make anyone wonder if she/he is good enough.
Having two sisters to compit againts and after seeing their familiy reaction when Andromeda left really make a mess in his head..."I could be the next..."

Bellatrix was born in a highly important, kind of wicked, and ancient family. I think that's more that enough to make anyone wonder if she/he is good enough. Having two sisters to compit againts and after seeing their familiy reaction when Andromeda left really make a mess in his head..."I could be the next..."
:welcome: Hayi!
I think that one of Bellatrix's original reasons for showing interest in joining the Death Eaters may have been to prove herself with her family. I doubt she ever thought that she was going to be ostrasized like Andromena, as she never strayed from the pure blood supremecy line of thinking. Good catch though, I never thought of it from that angle.

I don't know. I see that violence, or lack of it, usualy come along with ideologies. I don't know if she would have turned out that violent if raised in a muggle loving family such as, say, the Weasleys.

Also violence is usualy connected to a lack of self steem. If you are sure of yourself then you don't need to force things on others. I wonder why Bellatrix needed to act in such way.
I don't think the villains in the HP books have a lack of self-esteem. On the contrary, no one is more sure of himself than Voldemort, and he is the only one who seems to intimidate Bellatrix.

Her fear of failing her "Master" is what drives her, but she has to somewhat enjoy the torturing in order to do it to children. Whatever made her that way happened very early in life. The fact that Narcissa is almost normal (though still confused about right and wrong), and Andromeda married a Muggleborn, shows that Bella is in a class by herself, even in her own family.

Bellatrix was born in a highly important, kind of wicked, and ancient family. I think that's more that enough to make anyone wonder if she/he is good enough.
Having two sisters to compit againts and after seeing their familiy reaction when Andromeda left really make a mess in his head..."I could be the next..."

Bellatrix is the oldest of the three sisters, and we know that oldest children are revered in Pureblood families. If anything, she may have dominated her younger sisters, who had to compete with her, and not the other way around. I can see Bella pressuring Narcissa to make a good "pureblood" match for her marriage. Andromeda, like many younger sisters, may have gone to another extreme to be different from Bella.

I know this sounds horrible, but I picture Voldemort really playing with Bellatrix's head when she first joined up. He would fulfill enough of her emotional needs that she'd join him, but then he's push her down in other ways (small manipulative ways) - just enough to get her to put feeling in all the death and pain she caused.
The GoF quote in my signature is something Harry thinks after he's seen the trial concerning the torturing of the Longbottoms. Although he's mainly thinking about Crouch Jr. at this point (who he believes died in prison), I think we to some extent can let this apply to Bella too (I'm not saying Harry does that, I'm saying I do that). My point is: Rell, I agree that Voldemort has messed severely with Bella's mind. She must have been an unusually willing student of his, and I think he took advantage of it as much as he could. Voldemort knew what attracted Bella, and he could give it to her. She got the power and the attention from him that she wanted, just enough for her to grow dependent on him. Of course Bella must have had real potential for becoming an evil witch, but I think very much of the person she is today has been formed by Voldemort (and, yes, she's let him do that). I think Bella could have been a different person. I don't think she would have been a very likable person, but I think the evil tendencies in her started as a fairly small fire, until Voldemort came along and poured oil on it. Voldemort is good at messing with people's minds, and I think a lot of the evil we have seen Bella do is a result of that.

Odd isn't it that one pair of parents should produce 3 such different daughters?
Bellatrix: cruel, enjoys torturing, passionate, devoted to Voldemort.
Andromeda: we know little of her except that she was Sirius' favourite cousin and married a Muggle against her family's wishes. And produced a daughter who is on the good side.
Narcissa: cold, unemotional except where her family is concerned, snobbish, but not one who as far as we know does evil things.

We can't put the blame on the family for how Bella turned out as the other two didn't go that way. I agree with Rell that what she is now is the result of Voldemort messing with her head, but I suspect he found her wide-open to his influence. Could he have done the same with Narcissa? Probably not as Narcissa's priority is her husband and child, not Voldemort. Bellatrix puts Voldemort before everything and everyone. I'm not sure she was desperate for his attention and approbation as much as she thinks she deserves it, being a Black and all. And Voldy is certainly clever enough to build on that and make for himself a perfect torturing machine.

Does Voldy care for her as a person? I doubt that very much - Voldy doesn't do caring. Does Bella realise that? Does she really understand the depth of his inhumanity? She may be cruel but she is very human herself.

Bellatrix is the oldest of the three sisters, and we know that oldest children are revered in Pureblood families. If anything, she may have dominated her younger sisters, who had to compete with her, and not the other way around. I can see Bella pressuring Narcissa to make a good "pureblood" match for her marriage. Andromeda, like many younger sisters, may have gone to another extreme to be different from Bella.
You are probably rigth, but less not forget that usually when one of the younger brothers/sisters goes "wrong" the pressure in the oldest one increase, because it was his/her work to set a good example. I can perfectly picture Bellatrix family blaming to anything that breathes......
The family is obviusly the most important part in this, kids don't come to this world like "bad people" they learn it from somewhere.

Yes, Bella's family was a big factor in shaping her personality. Her family taught her that purebloods were superior to everybody else, and that's what she believes wholeheartedly.

I don't know. I see that violence, or lack of it, usualy come along with ideologies. I don't know if she would have turned out that violent if raised in a muggle loving family such as, say, the Weasleys.

Also violence is usualy connected to a lack of self steem. If you are sure of yourself then you don't need to force things on others. I wonder why Bellatrix needed to act in such way.

Welcome to the thread Puchula!

I agree with you on both the violence and self-esteem points. I would love to have been a fly on the wall (solely for educational purposes that is) at the Bella, Cissy, Andromeda house-hold when they were growing up. To take that a step further, at Hogwarts too... I think that there had to have been a major event in Bella's life that robbed her of her confidence and left her very angry. Enter Voldy... He taught her personally. He seems like the sort to help nurture that anger-driven power (what better kind for a DE?) and to ensure her unwavering loyalty, helped build up her confidence again as his personal apprentice. Make any sense? I've gone into more detail with this in my previous posts on this thread, but it's always fun to get new opinions from new post-ers.

The reason I think this is because Bella is the only one of her sisters (who had the most similar upbringings to Bella's) that turned out as a violent, crazy, sociopath. Cissy went the responsible route for the pure-blooded daughter, married respectably and had a son. Andromeda (in her family's eyes) went off the deep end and married a muggle-born. How does Bella's family see her? Okay, so she made a respectable marriage too, but had no children (not that she had time to). Are Bella's family proud of her and her lifestyle and accomplishments? She's obviously more tolerated than Andromeda, but how much more tolerated? Does she really have a "healthy" (I'm using that term very loosely) relationship with Cissy, or is it more of that 'you're my sister (and you're not a blood-traitor) so I have to love you' situation on Cissy's part?

I love Bella as a character! She's a blast to analyze and (in my opinion) has so many intriguing layers. That said, would I want to meet her on the street? No thanks.



best,
la femme

Maybe has something to do whit the "deserting" Blacks. First Sirius enters in the Gryffindor house, more presion for the remaining kids, then Andromeda goes and gets marry with a muggle, the presion increases.
Finally Cissy and Bella find husbands, but only Cissy have a child. And then Regulus deserts from Lord Voldemor side and I imagine that the Blacks wherent totally happy about this. When only 2 Blacks (Cissy and Bella) of the 5 childs that were originally manage to survive the family have to chose her favorite, and I imagine they chose the one with a son.
So Bella chose to stay in the side of the only person that apparently prefer her over Cissy.

We can't put the blame on the family for how Bella turned out as the other two didn't go that way. I agree with Rell that what she is now is the result of Voldemort messing with her head, but I suspect he found her wide-open to his influence. Could he have done the same with Narcissa? Probably not as Narcissa's priority is her husband and child, not Voldemort. Bellatrix puts Voldemort before everything and everyone. I'm not sure she was desperate for his attention and approbation as much as she thinks she deserves it, being a Black and all. And Voldy is certainly clever enough to build on that and make for himself a perfect torturing machine. Does Voldy care for her as a person? I doubt that very much - Voldy doesn't do caring. Does Bella realise that? Does she really understand the depth of his inhumanity? She may be cruel but she is very human herself.
I think that somehow Bellatrix expected Voldemort to care when she spent so long in Azkaban for him. She expected him to care because it was her, but Voldemort obviously cares only so much as it furthers himself and his cause. Bellatrix has depended on Voldemort since she was very young, and I think she's still that young woman depending on Voldemort because Voldemort turned her into that.

I don't think the villains in the HP books have a lack of self-esteem. On the contrary, no one is more sure of himself than Voldemort, and he is the only one who seems to intimidate Bellatrix.
Well the way I see it he's the one with the lowest self-esteem of them all. He was abandoned by his father, raised in an poor orphanage, with nothing to call his own, with no friends nor people to stand by his side. I think half the reason why Voldemort has gone so far is the need to prove others than he's a lot more than that lone, weird, boy with no family nor friends to bother.

We can't put the blame on the family for how Bella turned out as the other two didn't go that way. I agree with Rell that what she is now is the result of Voldemort messing with her head, but I suspect he found her wide-open to his influence.
I'm not denying Voldemort didn't have a lot to do with the way she came out. Probably if she went that far away inside the Death Eaters inner circle is because he showed interest in her.

But I think the way each sister turned out depends on their own character. Bella seems to be the moodiest out of the three, she'd be naturaly inclined to the active and agressive way of life Voldemort had to offer. Narcissa is the youngest daughter, maybe the spoiled one? She's moody, or at least she expects everything to set her desires, but doesn't seem a proactive person who would go and do it, rather than wait and have someone do it for you. Andromeda was probably the typical rebel middle sister, she had good commited daughter Bella on one side and probably spoiled, commited daughter Cissy on the other. She wanted to be diferent.

Welcome to the thread Puchula!
Thanks for the welcome. :D

You made some good points there Puchula. I agree with them all.

On the Lucius Malfoy thread we've been discussing whether he shows the characteristics of an eldest or an only child. With Bella, we know she is an eldest child. Have the pressures of that position in the family made her who she is? Eldests are in general pressured to achieve more, they are the ones the parents "practise" on and are consequently more harassed by rules and over-concern. Parents are more relaxed with the later ones. Also, the eldest usually has to do some looking after younger siblings which can make them bossy but which also gives them a sense of responsibility which can carry on much later into life.

I think Bella has the older-sister role with Cissy - she wants to protect her and tell her what she ought to do. She is certainly a driven woman, and that could come from childhood expectations put on her. If she had been born the youngest she might have turned out a bit differently although I think she would still have been a nasty piece of work! That seems to be her natural personality. Some people just love pulling the legs off spiders!

I'm not dissing eldests by the way - I'm one myself and I'm not at all like Bella, honest!! But I do have some standard "eldest" characteristics.

I think Bella has the older-sister role with Cissy - she wants to protect her and tell her what she ought to do. She is certainly a driven woman, and that could come from childhood expectations put on her. If she had been born the youngest she might have turned out a bit differently although I think she would still have been a nasty piece of work! That seems to be her natural personality. Some people just love pulling the legs off spiders!

I can't really agree here. Looking at the two Black sisters we know it is clearly Narcissa who is protective. Bella tries to stop Cissa in Spinner's End but one must doubt her protective streak when she says that she would gladly see her children die for Voldemort. She tries to boss her sister around and tell her what to do but we never see Bella acting protective around anyone. Bella is a member of an old pure-blood family and of course, she values her family. However, she killed off her cousin in cold blood. The reputation is more important than the actual person, so I think that she tried to stop Narcissa because she was acting against Voldemort's orders and risking her position and that of her family. If Voldemort requested it she would kill her sister.

The reputation is more important than the actual person, so I think that she tried to stop Narcissa because she was acting against Voldemort's orders and risking her position and that of her family. If Voldemort requested it she would kill her sister.
First I've just got to comment on your last sentence - even though I've said this on this thread previously - I don't think Bella would kill Narcissa. I think she's changed a little. She's realized Voldemort doesn't value her as highly as she thought, which leaves her with only Narcissa (apart from her husband, who's strikingly silent...) to rely on. I think Bella, deep down, values her sister more than Voldemort. Now, anyway. But I know many people out there disagree.

Second point: why did Bella go with Narcissa to Spinner's End? There seems to be more than one reason, including one I just thought of (which someone else may have brought up here before): Was Bella curious about Snape? After all she must have realized at this point that Snape is quite close to his master, while Bella herself seems to be losing whatever close relationship she's convinced herself she once had. Perhaps she would like to get some time with Snape to ask him questions and see how his home looks - just to understand a little more about him. Maybe she wanted to look for stuff she could tell Voldemort, stuff that would make Voldemort suspicious. Even though I think Bella's view of her relationship to Voldemort (and probably her view of Voldemort himself as well) has changed, she may still be trying to rectify what has gone wrong. Taking a closer look at Snape just might be part of this strategy.

I agree that Bella isn't remotely protective towards anyone. When she tries to stop Narcissa from going to Snape there are two reasons - she doesn't trust Snape, and she believes Narcissa is being disloyal to the Dark Lord.

You can almost make a case that teaching Draco Occlumency is protective, though it is also self-serving. If Draco is an Occlumens, then she can be more open with him, knowing the Dark Lord won't find out anything she has said. More likely, she teaches Draco Occlumency to hide his thoughts and plans from Snape, rather than the Dark Lord. And it works - during Slughorn's party, Snape can't see Draco's thoughts.

About Narcissa - this is a side note, but someone wrote earlier that Narcissa isn't that bad of a person, but I disagree. I was reading HBP last night, and came across the scene in Madame Malkin's shop. Narcissa tells Harry that he will "join Sirius" before she is reuninted with Lucius. Since Sirius is dead, that is a death threat - not very nice of her.

The reputation is more important than the actual person, so I think that she tried to stop Narcissa because she was acting against Voldemort's orders and risking her position and that of her family. If Voldemort requested it she would kill her sister.
You know, you convinced me. :lol: Although I still think it all has to do with her personality and in partialy with her being an older sister. First I have to say I don't think how someone turned out can be blamed on just one aspect of their lives (name it family, friends, personality, etc). The way each of us are is a result of an endless ammount of factors and it'd be imposible to set one apart from the other.

That said, I think if she had been one of the younger sisters she wouldn't feel it was up to her to defend the "family honor". Cissy defeneatly doesn't mind going against Voldemort if it comes to saving her son. Also I think that her being so bossy around Cissy is a classic older sister behaviour. And I say it because I'm an older sister myself, sometimes you can't help feeling you have a certain parenthood over your younger siblings.

Second point: why did Bella go with Narcissa to Spinner's End? There seems to be more than one reason, including one I just thought of (which someone else may have brought up here before): Was Bella curious about Snape? After all she must have realized at this point that Snape is quite close to his master, while Bella herself seems to be losing whatever close relationship she's convinced herself she once had. Perhaps she would like to get some time with Snape to ask him questions and see how his home looks - just to understand a little more about him. Maybe she wanted to look for stuff she could tell Voldemort, stuff that would make Voldemort suspicious. Even though I think Bella's view of her relationship to Voldemort (and probably her view of Voldemort himself as well) has changed, she may still be trying to rectify what has gone wrong. Taking a closer look at Snape just might be part of this strategy.
:agree: I always thought the same. I said something earlier about Bella being jealous of Snape. He, apparently, is trusted by their master all the way, despite having commited one of the worst treasons by turning to Dumbledore's side. Bella however did everything right, rotted in Azkaban for years and is now at the same level of confidence Snape is. I think she'd love to prove Snape isn't on Voldemort's side.

I can't really agree here. Looking at the two Black sisters we know it is clearly Narcissa who is protective. Bella tries to stop Cissa in Spinner's End but one must doubt her protective streak when she says that she would gladly see her children die for Voldemort. She tries to boss her sister around and tell her what to do but we never see Bella acting protective around anyone. Bella is a member of an old pure-blood family and of course, she values her family. However, she killed off her cousin in cold blood. The reputation is more important than the actual person, so I think that she tried to stop Narcissa because she was acting against Voldemort's orders and risking her position and that of her family. If Voldemort requested it she would kill her sister.

True, Narcissa is more protective towards her child, but that's hardly a fair comparison as Bellatrix doesn't have a child (as far as we know, and it seems unlikely that we wouldn't have seen this child already had it existed). We know she certainly doesn't have a son, as she says "if I had sons". Therefore we have no proof whatsoever that what she says about gladly sacrificing her children for Voldemort is true. She may believe it, but it may be that if she actually had children she might change her mind on that.

Anyway, that's beside the point. Bellatrix does show a protective streak with her younger sister: how many people in the Potterverse can hex Bellatrix, then turn their back and be right in assuming nothing will happen? Narcissa can.

She did at first try to stop Narcissa going against Voldemort's orders, that is true, but we know she had her wand on her (she cast AK with it at the beginning of the chapter and used it to bond the Unbreakable Vow at the end). She doesn't draw it on Narcissa. She could have stopped her magically without causing any pain to her sister: a simple Stupefy, for example. She chooses not to. Why?

However, she then goes against the Dark Lord's orders (that Draco should be the one to kill Dumbledore and should do it alone) by agreeing to Bond the Unbreakable Vow which meant Snape would have to assist. If she hadn't done that, then they may not have been able to find another Bonder, meaning that betrayal of Voldemort couldn't have occured.

Yes, she tries to tell Narcissa what to do, but she does seem to do this to protect her. She certainly never forces her not to do something.

I don't think she did "kill off her cousin in cold blood". It was a battle situation, Sirius went to attack her, not the other way around. In OOTP, it says something about "Sirius ran to meet Bellatrix" (Don't have the book on me, but roughly that). She also didn't use AK, and there's no evidence to say whether or not she knew what throwing him through the veil would do. it certainly wasn't in my definition of "cold blood": it's unlikely to have been pre-meditated, it was in a battle situation, both participants were armed and duelling. Sirius even attacked her first. In my view, in cold blood would be finding Sirius and murdering him with forethought, when he wasn't expecting it and perhaps when he was defenceless. In short, planned. It could equally have been Bella who was the one to be thrown through the veil.

So would she kill her sister if Voldemort requested it? There's no definite answer to this question, but I personally doubt it. She doesn't even seem capable of stunning her to avoid going against his implied orders. A direct order... who knows? I think it would depend on the situation... If Narcissa was just then going to be killed by someone else, along with bella herself, and possibly more painfully, then what would be the point of refusing? I don't think we'll ever see the answer to this in canon, although it would be good if we did.

We can't put the blame on the family for how Bella turned out as the other two didn't go that way. I agree with Rell that what she is now is the result of Voldemort messing with her head, but I suspect he found her wide-open to his influence. Could he have done the same with Narcissa? Probably not as Narcissa's priority is her husband and child, not Voldemort. Bellatrix puts Voldemort before everything and everyone. I'm not sure she was desperate for his attention and approbation as much as she thinks she deserves it, being a Black and all. And Voldy is certainly clever enough to build on that and make for himself a perfect torturing machine.

Ture, we can't put the WHOLE blame on the family but neither can we say her family has nothing to do with it. Although Andromeda turned out a different way, this doesn't happen because her family doesn't bother about the whole pureblood thing with their children- Andromeda wouldn't have been disowned if they didn't care. They were certainly pretty fanatic pureblood supremacists. I think Andromeda went the way she did in spite of her family rather than because of it.

Narcissa did "go that way" to a certain extent. She still very much believes in pureblood supremacy etc. True, she puts herself and her family before Voldemort, but she's hardly a "good person". She isn't as fanatically devoted to the cause as Bellatrix is, and isn't as violent and passionate in personality. They have very different personalities, which is one reason why Narcissa may not be so devoted, another perhaps is that Voldemort didn't try so hard with her as he did Bellatrix. Also, Narcissa has a child and husband she can put above Voldemort: it's possible Bella has an arranged marriage and no child, so she wouldn't put her husband and child above serving Voldemort, as she doesn't really have a husband or child (no husband she has strong emotions for, anyway).

We are making assumptions about Bella's family (reasonable ones I admit) because we know nothing about them. Since Bella's father Cygnus is Walburga Black's brother, we might assume that they would be similar in opinions and character, but as we have seen from looking at Bella and her sisters, that doesn't always hold true. While I'm sure they were Dark Wizards and pure-blood supremacists, as Sirius said all the Blacks were like that, they may not have been as extreme as Sirius' parents. So Bella's character might not have that much to do with her upbringing.

Bellatrix does show a protective streak with her younger sister: how many people in the Potterverse can hex Bellatrix, then turn their back and be right in assuming nothing will happen? Narcissa can.

Narcissa is also highly distraught and in a hurry. She even tells Bella "There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!"

She did at first try to stop Narcissa going against Voldemort's orders, that is true, but we know she had her wand on her (she cast AK with it at the beginning of the chapter and used it to bond the Unbreakable Vow at the end). She doesn't draw it on Narcissa. She could have stopped her magically without causing any pain to her sister: a simple Stupefy, for example. She chooses not to. Why?

Well, Bella was caught off guard by Narcissa's hex, and then Narcissa ran ahead, down winding streets. Hard to get a good shot off.
So why not Stun her before Snape answers the door? Well, Narcissa had already knocked, and I think Bella did want to get a chance to question Snape outside of view of other Death Eaters and Voldemort.

I said something earlier about Bella being jealous of Snape. He, apparently, is trusted by their master all the way, despite having commited one of the worst treasons by turning to Dumbledore's side. Bella however did everything right, rotted in Azkaban for years and is now at the same level of confidence Snape is. I think she'd love to prove Snape isn't on Voldemort's side.

Oh, definitely. Here she is, sacrificing for the cause, while Snape has a nice day job with the enemy. Bella knows her fanatical loyalty is only getting her as far, not farther, than Snape's infomation on Dumbledore and the Order. Second fiddle is NOT where she wants to be.

Come to think of it, she might've gone along with the Vow to get Snape out of the way. Snape admits that he thinks Voldemort wants him to carry out the plan in the end. Narcissa is sure that Draco's task is punishing him for Lucius's mistake at the Ministry, and he'll surely die in the attmept. Bella could twist this to her advantage: have Snape help Draco, and likely snuff it in the end. Then she'll be the undisputed favorite Death Eater. Perhaps this is why she taught Draco Occlumency; to keep Snape out of the loop, so that when (not if) Draco failed, Snape wouldn't know what was going on and thus die by the Vow.

I think if this is the case, we see what caulousness she treats family with, using Draco to further her own goals.

When Bella tries to stop Narcissa from going to Snape, Narcissa pulls her wand and draws it "down like a knife" and Bella lets go of her "as though burned." I don't think Bella would dare do a Petrificus or Stupefy on Narcissa, because all heck would break loose when it wore off. Also, the "burn" Bella experiences reminds me of the time Vernon was trying to choke Harry through the window in OotP, and has to let go of him due to the "heat" of trying to hold him. I assume that is Harry's "power" or perhaps "Lily's Protective Love" that keeps Vernon from strangling him. Narcissa has been loved, too, - by Draco, if not Lucius.

I don't think she did "kill off her cousin in cold blood". It was a battle situation, Sirius went to attack her, not the other way around. In OOTP, it says something about "Sirius ran to meet Bellatrix" (Don't have the book on me, but roughly that). She also didn't use AK, and there's no evidence to say whether or not she knew what throwing him through the veil would do. it certainly wasn't in my definition of "cold blood": it's unlikely to have been pre-meditated, it was in a battle situation, both participants were armed and duelling. Sirius even attacked her first. In my view, in cold blood would be finding Sirius and murdering him with forethought, when he wasn't expecting it and perhaps when he was defenceless. In short, planned. It could equally have been Bella who was the one to be thrown through the veil.
I don't understand your point at all. Sirius was actually trying to protect Harry and Neville - Bella had already Crucio'd Neville and would have killed Harry if she could have - that's premeditated. The rest of the DEs try to flee when Dumbledore arrives, but Sirius continues his duel with Bellatrix. They are the last two dueling, and Sirius is taunting her. She is well aware of who he is, and knows he is her cousin. She could have run from him like the rest of the DEs, and she doesn't have to respond to his taunt about "doing better." She could have run for it.
Here's the text:

Dumbledore sped down the steps past Neville and Harry, who had no more thoughts of leaving. Dumbledore was already at the foot of the steps when the Death Eaters nearest realised he was there and yelled to the others. One of the Death Eaters ran for it, scrabbling like a monkey up the stone steps opposite. Dumbledore's spell pulled him back as easily and effortlessly as though he had hooked him with an invisible line -

Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her.

'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room.

The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest.

The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.

Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore, too, turned towards the dais.

It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch.

Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind, then fell back into place.

Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing - Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second...

But Sirius did not reappear.

'SIRIUS!' Harry yelled. 'SIRIUS!'

Snape gives her a wine toast about killing her cousin at Spinner's End. For the DEs, that was the one good thing that happened for their side, because most of them went to Azkaban. Bella killed Sirius and got away. However, Voldemort wasn't pleased with what she had done, because she failed to get the Prophecy, so the "triumph" of killing Sirius meant little to the Dark Lord.

'So, you smashed my prophecy?' said Voldemort softly, staring at Harry with those pitiless red eyes. 'No, Bella, he is not lying... I see the truth looking at me from within his worthless mind... months of preparation, months of effort... and my Death Eaters have let Harry Potter thwart me again ...I

'Master, I am sorry I knew not, I was fighting the Animagus Black!' sobbed Bellatrix, flinging herself down at Voldemort's feet as he paced slowly nearer. 'Master, you should know -'

'Be quiet, Bella,' said Voldemort dangerously. 'I shall deal with you in a moment. Do you think I have entered the Ministry of Magic to hear your snivelling apologies?'


To me, the fact that Bella calls Sirius "The Animagus Black" shows how she feels about him - she doesn't say "My Cousin Sirius" or "Sirius Black." And she says she was "fighting" him, which implies that she knew it was a battle, and therefore, she wasn't going to back down.

When Bella tries to stop Narcissa from going to Snape, Narcissa pulls her wand and draws it "down like a knife" and Bella lets go of her "as though burned." I don't think Bella would dare do a Petrificus or Stupefy on Narcissa, because all heck would break loose when it wore off. Also, the "burn" Bella experiences reminds me of the time Vernon was trying to choke Harry through the window in OotP, and has to let go of him due to the "heat" of trying to hold him. I assume that is Harry's "power" or perhaps "Lily's Protective Love" that keeps Vernon from strangling him. Narcissa has been loved, too, - by Draco, if not Lucius.
Interesting point. I don't know what caused the burned feeling on Bella's part, but I think her sister's emotional state makes an impression on her. The Malfoy family have always been preoccupied with outward appearance, and I imagine Narcissa is pretty skilled at acting in a composed manner. But the situation for her family now is desperate, and as Valkonde quoted:
Narcissa is also highly distraught and in a hurry. She even tells Bella "There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!"
Bella has always been fanatical about Voldemort. Maybe this is the first time she sees Narcissa in this state of mind (as an adult, anyway), and she is a bit taken aback by the "violence of affection" (to use Mr. Collins' words :D) her sister shows. Narcissa would do anything for her family, just like Bella would do anything for Voldemort. I think Bella is a bit surprised at what she is seeing, and perhaps she is also curious about har far exactly her sister will go to protect her son.
The rest of the DEs try to flee when Dumbledore arrives, but Sirius continues his duel with Bellatrix. They are the last two dueling, and Sirius is taunting her. She is well aware of who he is, and knows he is her cousin. She could have run from him like the rest of the DEs, and she doesn't have to respond to his taunt about "doing better." She could have run for it.
Could she? I don't think she even considered it. Not necessarily because she hated Sirius so bad that she'd do anything to see him killed, but because her family honour made it impossible for her to run and leave a family traitor behind. I think honour is a very important feature in Bella's reasoning. Not just family honour, but the fact that she is very proud herself. She wouldn't like Voldemort or any DE to think that she was being 'soft' towards a relative. I'm not saying running would mean she was 'soft', I'm saying Bella herself would probably think that it was so. On the other hand, it is possible that Bella's just so fond of fighting and duelling that she won't stop. She probably hasn't had the chance to do too much fighting in a while, and now she's actually got a blood traitor on her hands. Run from such an opportunity? No way!
To me, the fact that Bella calls Sirius "The Animagus Black" shows how she feels about him - she doesn't say "My Cousin Sirius" or "Sirius Black."
Well, I don't think she'd ever call Sirius "My cousin Sirius" - he was a traitor, and there was no reason for her to refer to him as a family member. It is probably bad enough for her that they shared their surname. I imagine she wants to keep a distance to Sirius because of what he's done. That being said, I've always been curious too as to why she calls him "the Animagus" instead of Sirius. Maybe she's got something against Animagi in general? Or perhaps she has now, because Sirius was one?

When Bella tries to stop Narcissa from going to Snape, Narcissa pulls her wand and draws it "down like a knife" and Bella lets go of her "as though burned." I don't think Bella would dare do a Petrificus or Stupefy on Narcissa, because all heck would break loose when it wore off. Also, the "burn" Bella experiences reminds me of the time Vernon was trying to choke Harry through the window in OotP, and has to let go of him due to the "heat" of trying to hold him. I assume that is Harry's "power" or perhaps "Lily's Protective Love" that keeps Vernon from strangling him. Narcissa has been loved, too, - by Draco, if not Lucius.


I don't understand your point at all. Sirius was actually trying to protect Harry and Neville - Bella had already Crucio'd Neville and would have killed Harry if she could have - that's premeditated. The rest of the DEs try to flee when Dumbledore arrives, but Sirius continues his duel with Bellatrix. They are the last two dueling, and Sirius is taunting her. She is well aware of who he is, and knows he is her cousin. She could have run from him like the rest of the DEs, and she doesn't have to respond to his taunt about "doing better." She could have run for it.
Here's the text:



Snape gives her a wine toast about killing her cousin at Spinner's End. For the DEs, that was the one good thing that happened for their side, because most of them went to Azkaban. Bella killed Sirius and got away. However, Voldemort wasn't pleased with what she had done, because she failed to get the Prophecy, so the "triumph" of killing Sirius meant little to the Dark Lord.



To me, the fact that Bella calls Sirius "The Animagus Black" shows how she feels about him - she doesn't say "My Cousin Sirius" or "Sirius Black." And she says she was "fighting" him, which implies that she knew it was a battle, and therefore, she wasn't going to back down.

I know she's well aware of who he is, and that he's her cousin. She couldn't have turned and ran: he'd have hit her in the back with a Stupefy or similar if he could, and she'd have been back in Azkaban. She may deserve to be there, but can you reasonably expect her to take that option.

Your text is only the part after they've started duelling: it is stated quite clearly that Sirius began that particular duel by running to meet her earlier on. I'm not blaming him, but her actions in fighting back against him are hardly unreasonable. Also, the "triumphant scream" is Harry's opinion: she certainly screams, but the triumphant is entirely Harry: he's watching Sirius at the time, he doesn't even look at her face. He just assumes it's triumph. He could of course be right, but he could equally be wrong. Even if the scream is triumph, Bella could not yet have realised that Sirius is dead or going to die, so it's triumph that she beat him and won the fight, not that she killed him.

She calls him the "Animagus Black", but is she exactly going to call him "my cousin Sirius" when she's trying to suck up to Voldemort, when he would expect all his followers to hate dedicated Order members like Sirius Black. I'm not saying she didn't dislike Sirius, I was merely objecting to the allegation that it was "cold-blooded" and unjustified killing. I'm not sure she even meant to do it: she may not have exactly lost sleep over it, but there's no proof she meant that hex to kill.

I'm unsure about why you think "all hell would break loose" if Bellatrix cast a stunning charm or something on Narcissa. The quotes you provided only show (or strongly imply, anyway) that Narcissa hexes Bellatrix. They don't support that there would be trouble if Bellatrix hexed her sister. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

Narcissa is also highly distraught and in a hurry. She even tells Bella "There is nothing I wouldn't do anymore!"


True: my point is not that Narcissa was confident she could get away with hexing Bella, but that she was right to suppose nothing would happen.

And yes, the winding roads may have made it difficult to hit Narcissa with a hex, but Bellatrix isn't exactly a bad witch, and anyway with her personality you'd think she'd have at least tried- she doesn't really seem to do a lot of thinking through whether things will work and the possible consequences.

However, I'm sure she was also pleased to get the opportunity to question Snape, although less pleased when he outwitted her in their verbal battle! There certainly is a lot of animosity between the two: probably as they seem pretty much polar opposites. I imagine they're both exactly what the other despises. I'll have to continue this another day though, it's getting late here.

She calls him the "Animagus Black", but is she exactly going to call him "my cousin Sirius" when she's trying to suck up to Voldemort, when he would expect all his followers to hate dedicated Order members like Sirius Black.


She didn't have to say "Sirius", she just had to say "Black" as Sirius was the only one left. So I find it a bit odd that she calls him "the Animagus Black". Maybe she is trying to make him sound less human so she needn't consider that she has just killed her cousin.

she doesn't really seem to do a lot of thinking through whether things will work and the possible consequences.

Very true. For someone so brilliant, Bella is quite dense at times...

Example: she could have Stunned Narcissa from behind to keep her from going to Snape, but she didn't. Was she afraid to atract attention? Was she going soft on her sister? I'm leaning towards the latter, given her overly-paranoid view on things, ie. thinking a fox on a river bank was an Auror lying in wait. Why did she even think an Auror would be there?

And what exactly did she think she'd accomplish by questioning Snape, if that was part of her original intentions following her sister? Doesn't she know Snape is a master manipulator, a genius wordsmith? She must have heard him speak at Death Eater meetings, known how brilliant he is...So why would she set out to confront him?

Utterly random thought, Snape's verbal evisceration of Bellatrix reminds me of his verbal win over Sirius in the kitchen at 12 Grimmauld Place. What is it with those Blacks? :rolleyes:

What, precisely, would Bellatrix have accomplished by hexing her sister and preventing her from going to Snape? Was she going to sit on her to prevent her from trying again? Or tie her up? Seriously, there was nothing to be gained from stopping Narcissa, because Narcissa would just go again. It could only be, at best, a temporary solution.

What, precisely, would Bellatrix have accomplished by hexing her sister and preventing her from going to Snape? Was she going to sit on her to prevent her from trying again? Or tie her up? Seriously, there was nothing to be gained from stopping Narcissa, because Narcissa would just go again. It could only be, at best, a temporary solution.

:lol: Bella sitting on Cissy's stupified body on a filthy cobblestoned side street. Great image!

Humor aside, I agree with you. I mean, Cissy's a big girl. She's going to do what she wants regardless if Bella thinks it's prudant or not. She can voice her opinion (which she never hesitates to do) and try to stop her (yep, did that too) but other than that, she's out of options.
I think that this scene really shows that Bella, as deranged and deluded as she is, is still a sister and does care about her family (well Cissy at least). She knew where Cissy was going, she could have gone directly to Voldy and ratted her out. Instead she tries to stop Cissy from betraying Voldy, which is essentially signing your own death certificate. Even after the whole UV and everything, Bella does not turn Cissy in, which can probably be considered betrayal also (let me check my Death Eater Do's and Dont's pamplet quickly). I think that this scene also shows Bella losing faith in Voldy. Would the Bella pre-DoM have turned Cissy in? In my opinion, yes. But now that she's fallen from grace, other things are taking priority.

best,
la femme

What, precisely, would Bellatrix have accomplished by hexing her sister and preventing her from going to Snape? Was she going to sit on her to prevent her from trying again?

Well, a good strong Imperius would have provided a more longterm solution, I am sure.

We don't know that Bellatrix can cast it, though I would be surprised if she couldn't. I would imagine, though, that it would be hard to fool people who know her well into thinking she was acting normally. It also depends how resistant Narcissa is to Imperio and how long Bellatrix could keep it up.

She didn't have to say "Sirius", she just had to say "Black" as Sirius was the only one left. So I find it a bit odd that she calls him "the Animagus Black". Maybe she is trying to make him sound less human so she needn't consider that she has just killed her cousin.
I don't know... I too find it odd that she calls him Animagus, but I don't know how guilty she could have felt.

First, she's been killing/cursing people for several years now, after some time you must develop some kind of shield around you, if not you couldn't go on doing it. Second, I was rereading OotP the other day and Sirius himself says she wasn't much of a cousin to him. They haven't seen each other since they were teenagers (except a glimpse of each other when she got to Azkaban), he doesn't want to be associated with her, and she doesn't want to be associated with him. The family bond is nonexistent for both.

That erased, she would feel as bad killing him (or causing his death) as killing any other Auror/Order Member she has killed in the past.

Yes, Sirius and Bella don't consider each other to be family. But I also find it odd that she calls him the Animagus Black instead of just Black.

She might have called him the animagus Black to emphasize his abilities and thus make herself look better for having been thus engaged.

I agree that Bellatrix is not in any way a loving character. Passionate, yes, but that's not the same thing. I think she can feel loyalty - to her family as well as Voldy - but whether she has any softer feelings for Narcissa or for her husband come to that, I find it hard to imagine.

Although I agree that she is a hateful character I don't object to her quite as much as people like Umbridge who are pretending to be nice on the outside and are cruel at heart. At least Bella is honest about who and what she is.

No way she could have softer feelings and loyalty to her family. Sirius was her cousin!!! And she HATED him because he wasn't a Death Eater. And there's no proof that she had softer feelings for Narcissa or Lucius. Considering the fact that she thought that Lucius was stupid for getting himself thrown in prison. And Narcissa was being stupid for running to Snape when Moldy decided to put Draco to the task of killing off Dumbledore. That doesn't show her as soft at all. You see her fighting with her sister all the time...especially when they were going to Snape's place and even moreso inside. She voiced that aloud. If you have softer feeling for someone..you don't cut them down as stupid. And she did.

No way she could have softer feelings and loyalty to her family. Sirius was her cousin!!! And she HATED him because he wasn't a Death Eater.

It wasn't just that he wasn't Death Eater. She saw him as all the Black's did; a traitor that ran out on (in their view) the best wizarding family. They felt Pureblood supremecy was all that mattered and disliked him for his different views. All his family put the same points across like she did, look at his mother's portrait for example. I still feel other people in his family would not of killed him, but that is the person Bellatrix is. IMO, most people in the Black family weren't Death Eaters and couldn't kill anyone (there is a big difference between hatting/disliking someone and killing them), and to be a Death Eater you need that "killer" streak that Bellatrix has.


And Narcissa was being stupid for running to Snape when Moldy decided to put Draco to the task of killing off Dumbledore. That doesn't show her as soft at all. You see her fighting with her sister all the time...especially when they were going to Snape's place and even moreso inside. She voiced that aloud. If you have softer feeling for someone..you don't cut them down as stupid. And she did.

I don't know about you, but if I feel my brother and sister are considering doing what I would consider "stupid" things I would tell them. Especially if it was something as major as betraying your leader, which would get you killed. Although she didn't agree with what Cissy was doing, she went with her and did'nt turn her in to Voldemort, which as people have mentioned, makes her culpable for betrayal as well, risking her own life to stop her sister.

You also have to remember her personality. She is sneaky, and uses what she knows will hurt Cissy most to try and get her to stop. However, IMO, she was trying to get her to stop because she cared for her and didn't want her to stop.

We know that she fantatically supports Voldemort. However, with her loyalities divided in the "spinner's End" section, she chose to support her sister. She went with her, didn't leave her and put her life on the line to try and stop her. I am not commending any of her actions, but I believe that she does have "softer" feelings towards her sister.

I think she just called him the Animagus Black for Voldemort's sake so Voldemort knew specifically about whom she was speaking. Of course, Voldemort did know his name was Sirius, but he may have referred to him as the Animagus Black so that is why Bellatrix referred to him that way.

Bellatrix is so devoted to Voldemort, what would happen if she attempted to sacrifice herself to save his life? Even though we know Voldemort has never been loved, surely most of the other Death Eaters have; Snape used to be a DE, and Bellatrix is married. Could she love LV enough to save him the way Lily protected Harry?

It's hard to say. Before book five, I think that Bella would be willing to die for Voldemort. Now I think even she is starting to question his judgment.

That's true, I haven't read HBP in a while and recently reread OotP, so my ideas of Bellatrix are probably more closely based on earlier books.

What, precisely, would Bellatrix have accomplished by hexing her sister and preventing her from going to Snape? Was she going to sit on her to prevent her from trying again? Or tie her up? Seriously, there was nothing to be gained from stopping Narcissa, because Narcissa would just go again. It could only be, at best, a temporary solution.
Exactly - and Narcissa would have been fighting mad when the spell wore off.

I'm unsure about why you think "all hell would break loose" if Bellatrix cast a stunning charm or something on Narcissa. The quotes you provided only show (or strongly imply, anyway) that Narcissa hexes Bellatrix. They don't support that there would be trouble if Bellatrix hexed her sister. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.
I was talking about what would happen when the spell wore off and Narcissa came after Bella for daring to hex her. She would be angry and then come after Bella. Or as CLK said in her post above, she would just continue on to Snape's house anyway. I believe clk stated the case very well.

Also, you say that Narcissa hexed Bella, as if that was somehow cruel, but Bella is the "pursuer" who is trying to stop Narcissa. And remember, this is a witch who just Avada Kedavra'd a fox without giving it any thought.

From Chapter 2, Spinner's End

"...the two women were running between patches of light and deep darkness. The pursuer caught up with her prey just as she turned another corner, this time succeeding in catching hold of her arm and swinging her around so that they faced eachother."

The canon calls Narcissa the "prey" of Bella. That's not a good thing between sisters, is it?

I know she's well aware of who he is, and that he's her cousin. She couldn't have turned and ran: he'd have hit her in the back with a Stupefy or similar if he could, and she'd have been back in Azkaban. She may deserve to be there, but can you reasonably expect her to take that option.
OK, but if she had hit Sirius with Stupefy, she could have run away.

So she must have wanted to keep trying to hurt him instead. If teenagers can stupefy adults, then I see no reason why Bella couldn't have stupefied Sirius.

Your text is only the part after they've started duelling: it is stated quite clearly that Sirius began that particular duel by running to meet her earlier on.
Interesting point - why did Sirius run straight to her? Was he aching to fight her? Did he think he could overcome her easily? Did he want to be the one to take down Bellatrix? Or did he expect her to be easy on him, since they were family? There were other people there he could have fought against, but as you say, Sirius chose Bellatrix. :huh:

She didn't have to say "Sirius", she just had to say "Black" as Sirius was the only one left. So I find it a bit odd that she calls him "the Animagus Black". Maybe she is trying to make him sound less human so she needn't consider that she has just killed her cousin.
That's what I think. :tu: :agree:

Jumping back to Bella's opinion on Voldemort: She could very well be starting to distrust him. Perhaps partially because she's fallen from his grace by failing so spectacularly at the Ministry. But she also distrusts Voldemort's opinion of Snape; in fact, when Narcissa calls her on this ("The Dark Lord trusts him!"), Bella gives her doubts ("The Dark Lord is, I believe...mistaken."). She still cares enough to look around to see if they've been overheard, but I think that's more a function of Bella's paranoia that she might get jumped for expressing doubt.
And then there's the Vow. Did Bella tell Voldemort about it? I think he'd be most put out about going behind his back (even if he did eventually intend for things to run that way..."I think he means for me to do it in the end," Snape says). Bella wouldn't be too keen on upsetting her master AGAIN a mere two weeks after the fiasco at the Ministry. I think she's waiting for Snape to take the fall for that one (again pointing out what little lack of foresight she has).

As for Bella being soft on family (aside from the traitorous Sirius): I doubt it. I don't think she really cares for anyone besides herself, and her standing with Voldemort. After all, at Spinner's End she tries to pin the failure at the Ministry on Lucius. She comments, in front of a hysterical Narcissa, that she'd be proud to give her sons, had she any, to the Dark Lord. Her teaching Draco Occlumency might seem helpful, but I suspect she was again furthering her own ends by giving Draco the tools to evade any help.

As for Bella being soft on family (aside from the traitorous Sirius): I doubt it. I don't think she really cares for anyone besides herself, and her standing with Voldemort. After all, at Spinner's End she tries to pin the failure at the Ministry on Lucius. She comments, in front of a hysterical Narcissa, that she'd be proud to give her sons, had she any, to the Dark Lord. Her teaching Draco Occlumency might seem helpful, but I suspect she was again furthering her own ends by giving Draco the tools to evade any help.
Good point - Bellatrix may well be the one who put all those ideas into Draco's head about Snape wanting "all the glory for himself." Bella is the one who is most jealous of Snape, if she thinks he is the Master's "favorite." And by the end of HBP on the Tower, Draco sounds nearly as carried away as Auntie Bella with ideas of glory as a DE.

So while Snape was teaching Harry Occlumency to close him mind to the Dark Lord, it's a good guess the Bella was teaching Draco to close his mind to Snape - and it certainly worked.

I think that it's possible that Bellatrix wanted to indirectly kill Snape that way. If she told Draco to go ahead with his own plans without Snape's involvement, then she really was setting the situation up for Snape to break the vow and die.

And speaking of that, I think that this shows that Bella does'nt really care for family all that much. It would be pretty cruel of her to make Draco go through all that himself when he had the viable option of going to Snape for help.

I think that it's possible that Bellatrix wanted to indirectly kill Snape that way. If she told Draco to go ahead with his own plans without Snape's involvement, then she really was setting the situation up for Snape to break the vow and die.

And speaking of that, I think that this shows that Bella does'nt really care for family all that much. It would be pretty cruel of her to make Draco go through all that himself when he had the viable option of going to Snape for help.

Good points, especially about getting Snape killed. I don't think that Bella has ever cared for anyone except for herself, her parents (just a wild guess), Cissy, and Voldy. I've never seen her as a caring, doting, wife or a great, loving, auntie. The reason I say that she cares about Cissy is because she did try to stop her going to Snape. If she didn't care for Cissy than she would've gone straight to Voldy and spilled the beans. As far as Draco's concerned, seems to me that the only reason that she would ever be proud of him is if he did go through with the plan all by himself. Of course, you can also look at it from the angle that she does care about Draco because she did encourage him to do all of this on his own, which is what Voldy wanted, right?

best,
la femme

Of course, you can also look at it from the angle that she does care about Draco because she did encourage him to do all of this on his own, which is what Voldy wanted, right?
Of course in her own twisted way, this could be Bellatrix's idea of caring for relatives; living up to Voldemort's expectations.

I think that it's possible that Bellatrix wanted to indirectly kill Snape that way. If she told Draco to go ahead with his own plans without Snape's involvement, then she really was setting the situation up for Snape to break the vow and die.
I agree. I think Bella saw the Vow as a way to maybe get rid of Snape. I could see her telling Draco that she will help him and not to listen to or ask Snape for advice.

And speaking of that, I think that this shows that Bella does'nt really care for family all that much. It would be pretty cruel of her to make Draco go through all that himself when he had the viable option of going to Snape for help.
Bella's feelings about Draco's mission interest me a lot. Why did she help Draco with occulmency? To actually give him a chance because she cared or to give him a chance because she could run back to Voldemort and get in his good graces again if Draco completed the mission?
I agree that if Bella turned Draco against Snape, it would be pretty cruel. Snape is very smart and could have helped Draco a great deal. I always thought Draco just wanted to do the mission himself, but this makes me wonder if Bella tried to "brainwash" him into refusing help.

I think that Bella helping Draco is a way of getting to be Voldemort's favorite again, even if she's suspicious of the choices he makes. Bella might thik that she'll get more insight if she is his favorite.

Of course in her own twisted way, this could be Bellatrix's idea of caring for relatives; living up to Voldemort's expectations.

That's an interesting point. Most people tend to think that what's right for them is probably right for everyone else. I expect Bella was pleased that her nephew became a DE and would want him to live up to family expectations. She might well do her bit to ensure that happens. Whether she has any feelings for Draco as a person I'm not so sure. He is, after all, very like his father and I don't get the impression that Bella and Lucius get on so well. But that's just an impression.

Of course in her own twisted way, this could be Bellatrix's idea of caring for relatives; living up to Voldemort's expectations.

Exactly. Bella knows that family only means one thing to Voldy, leverage to use against people to get them to do what he wants (if you don't do this for me your mum, dad, brother, sister, kid, etc. will get it). Maybe she really was trying to protect Draco. But was she doing it for Draco's sake or Cissy's?

best,
la femme

She could be helping Draco for her own sake (or Voldy's which is kind of like hers). Since she has no trust for Snape, she wanted to help Draco so that Voldemort's plan could be executed properly, even if Snape was on the good side. She could not tell because he is a Occlumency master and she didn't want Snape messing up their plans.

OR

Because Voldemort seems to know that Draco cannot acheive the task and is just punishing his father for failing him, maybe he was trying to test snape as well to see how loyal he is. And since Bella doesn't like/trust snape she is trying to help Draco and prove that Snape isn't trustworthy. (That sounded pretty confusing.)

OR

I guess Bella could be doing it for the sake of the Malfoy family because she has been friends with them for so long. But Bella having that much caring for someone is unexpected.

Bella's feelings about Draco's mission interest me a lot. Why did she help Draco with occulmency? To actually give him a chance because she cared or to give him a chance because she could run back to Voldemort and get in his good graces again if Draco completed the mission?
Or just to keep Draco's plans from making it to Snape. I've wondered a lot why Bella would go agree with the plan at all, as she does not want to go against dumbledore's orders. But she seems to really hate snape, so the opportunity to kill him might be enticing to Bellatrix.

Or just to keep Draco's plans from making it to Snape. I've wondered a lot why Bella would go agree with the plan at all, as she does not want to go against dumbledore's orders. But she seems to really hate snape, so the opportunity to kill him might be enticing to Bellatrix.
I agree that she might have taught him occulmency to keep the plan from Snape. I also agree that Bella's hatred of Snape would make her go against Voldemort and try to set Snape to die.

I agree that she might have taught him occulmency to keep the plan from Snape. I also agree that Bella's hatred of Snape would make her go against Voldemort and try to set Snape to die.

I assume that when you say she was setting Snape up to die, you're talking about the Unbreakable Vow? I don't think that was Bella's idea, was it? I thought it was Cissy's suggestion? I thought Bella looked surprised that Snape went through with it. So it wasn't likely to be something Bella planned.

But yes, I'd expect her to be quite pleased if the Vow had backfired and Snape had died. But I would also have expected her to look more enthusiastic about bonding it.

But yes, I'd expect her to be quite pleased if the Vow had backfired and Snape had died. But I would also have expected her to look more enthusiastic about bonding it.
Whether or not that was the original plan, I think that Bellatrix purposely told Draco to keep his plans from Snape (and taught him occlumency to help with that) so that Snape would be unable to fulfill his part of the vow.

Whether or not that was the original plan, I think that Bellatrix purposely told Draco to keep his plans from Snape (and taught him occlumency to help with that) so that Snape would be unable to fulfill his part of the vow.
I agree. Eventhough it was Narcissa's idea to do the Vow, Bella could have used it to her advantage and tried to keep Snape in the dark. Bella was only surprised because she didn't think Snape would take the Vow.

Exactly. Narcissa asks Snape to make the Vow, and Bella scoffs, since she's firmly convinced that he's not trustworthy. Her comments almost backfire, though; surely, she's trying to catch Snape in the act. If he backs out of the Vow, he's a liar and she can run to Voldemort and tell him such. But Snape calls her on this and takes the Vow anyway.

Bella looks surprised because she was sure that Snape would back out of the Vow, given the ambiguity of the conversation. He constantly stated that he'd "try" to protect Draco. But when it came down to definites, she thought he'd save his own neck, rather than risk his life to keep a kid safe.

Bella's biggest mistake here is that she underestimates Snape. If he wants to save his neck, he'll never agree to a Vow, right? No. If he wants to save his neck, he'll take the Vow.

Exactly. Narcissa asks Snape to make the Vow, and Bella scoffs, since she's firmly convinced that he's not trustworthy. Her comments almost backfire, though; surely, she's trying to catch Snape in the act. If he backs out of the Vow, he's a liar and she can run to Voldemort and tell him such. But Snape calls her on this and takes the Vow anyway.

Bella looks surprised because she was sure that Snape would back out of the Vow, given the ambiguity of the conversation. He constantly stated that he'd "try" to protect Draco. But when it came down to definites, she thought he'd save his own neck, rather than risk his life to keep a kid safe.

Bella's biggest mistake here is that she underestimates Snape. If he wants to save his neck, he'll never agree to a Vow, right? No. If he wants to save his neck, he'll take the Vow.

Yes, I think you're right. This really emphasises one of the differences between Bella and Snape. Snape is devious, thinks things through, doesn't take risks, sees forward. Bella is impetuous, doesn't think before she acts, takes any risks she thinks she needs to, focusses on now rather than tomorrow. She is wide open while he is totally hidden. Which is why he can understand and manipulate her, but she can never understand and control him.

Yes, I think you're right. This really emphasises one of the differences between Bella and Snape. Snape is devious, thinks things through, doesn't take risks, sees forward. Bella is impetuous, doesn't think before she acts, takes any risks she thinks she needs to, focusses on now rather than tomorrow. She is wide open while he is totally hidden. Which is why he can understand and manipulate her, but she can never understand and control him.

I think that you just outlined Bella's greatest weaknesses. These qualities are obivously why she ended up in Azkaban. But, to an extent, they also remind me of Harry. Impetuous, little fore-thought, risk taking, etc...
These qualities too, however, could be what made Bella one of Voldy's favorites. When torture and mayhem are on the agenda for the day, the last thing you want (if you're Voldy) is a DE that is thinking the process through and giving conscience a chance to join the little devil on your DE's shoulder. Of course, if you want to remain discreet, don't send Bella. I wonder why Voldy sent Bella on the Ministry mission in the first place?

best,
la femme

I wonder why Voldy sent Bella on the Ministry mission in the first place?

best,
la femme

Yes, I wonder that. It wasn't as though there weren't enough DEs there to take on a bunch of kids. And Bella had to be told off by Lucius for being impetuous and emperilling the prophecy. She is a bit of a liability. On the other hand she was the only one that got away from Dumbledore which is to her credit. How did she get away though when the others were caught? I can't remember.

Yes, I wonder that. It wasn't as though there weren't enough DEs there to take on a bunch of kids. And Bella had to be told off by Lucius for being impetuous and emperilling the prophecy. She is a bit of a liability. On the other hand she was the only one that got away from Dumbledore which is to her credit. How did she get away though when the others were caught? I can't remember.

She just ran for it. Harry was chasing her after he realized that Sirius was dead and she ran. I think that Dumbledore was busy lassoeing the other DE's and there was such a commotion from that, that it gave her a great cover to escape to the atrium level. Then, after Voldy and Dumbledore were done dueling Voldy escaped and took Bella with him.
So, another question, why did he take her? What is it about Bella that really makes her so valuable to Voldy. As I said, mayhem and torture are right up her alley, but the other DE's enjoy and are good that too. She is quite a liability. Seems to me that she's never successfully completed a mission (that we know of anyway). Is she kept around because she's Cissy's sister and therefore she can spy on the Malfoy's and their link with Snape?

best,
la femme

Dumbledore, when he was rounding up the other Death Eaters with his anti-Apparition spell, tried to cast it on Bella as she fled, but she deflected the spell and got away.

I think Bella is valuable to Voldemort. She's possibly the most loyal Death Eater, and she is extremely powerful. I think that's why Voldemort took her with him when he left the Ministry after his duel with Dumbledore. That and he can't let all of his minions get caught, can he? Especially if he needs someone to blame......

I'm just curious, If anyone else sees any parralells between Belatrix and the Charels Manson groupie girls.

I find that they both:
Are under the leadership a Indiscrimate/Insane Murderer
Have fanatical devotion to their leader:
-Belatrixes outburst in the trial
-The Manson Girls symboylic self mutalation
I've always had the underlying impression that, though she was married, part of Bellatrix considering herself LV most devoted DE was the fact that she may of had extramarital relations with him.

These are just some paralells I pulled off the top of my head but Whe I have more time I may examine more paralells, I'm just wondering waht other people though, because though I know JK Rowling doesn't base her characters on anyone, she does base some off of a large array of human qualities and tendencies of reactions people have under the particular situations she puts them through.

Unknown (2): And if any other characters might redeem themselves?

J.K. Rowling: Well, I believe that almost anyone can redeem themselves. However, in some cases, as we know from reality -- if a psychologist were ever able to get Voldemort in a room, tape him down, take his wand away, I think he would be classified as a psychopath (crowd laughs). So there are people for whom redemption is not possible.

So I'd say for my main characters, yes, there's the possibility for redemption for all of them.

What do you guys make of this quote in relation to Bellatrix?

I think that Bellatrix could be redeemed, if she wanted to. It just depends on if she would take advantage of an opportunity to be redeemed.

Unknown (2): And if any other characters might redeem themselves?

J.K. Rowling: Well, I believe that almost anyone can redeem themselves. However, in some cases, as we know from reality -- if a psychologist were ever able to get Voldemort in a room, tape him down, take his wand away, I think he would be classified as a psychopath (crowd laughs). So there are people for whom redemption is not possible.

So I'd say for my main characters, yes, there's the possibility for redemption for all of them.

What do you guys make of this quote in relation to Bellatrix?

I don't really classify Bella as a "main" character. However, if Jo does consider her to be a main character, I don't think that there is anything that she could do to redeem herself. Frankly, I think that the Malfoy's have a better chance at redemption than Bella. I see Bella dying for either her cause or Voldy's.

best,
la femme

I don't really classify Bella as a "main" character. However, if Jo does consider her to be a main character, I don't think that there is anything that she could do to redeem herself. Frankly, I think that the Malfoy's have a better chance at redemption than Bella. I see Bella dying for either her cause or Voldy's.

best,
la femme

I'm with you on that, although I think she sees her cause and Voldy's as the same thing.

Staff edit.

In order for Bellatrix to redeem herself, she'd have to come to the realization that she's in a situation that requires redemption. I just don't see this ever happening; Bellatrix is too obsessed.

I'd like to remind everyone to keep this thread family friendly and respectul of other members. Staff have deleted and edited some posts.

We haven't met her husband yet, right? I get the impression that he was in school with Tom Riddle, Jr. I think he was in the group Tom hung around with. He must be something.

well we see her husband breifly in the pensieve scene in OotP, but I don't think we know anything else about him. I can't remember if he was one of the death eaters who broke out of azkaban in OotP, but even if he did, as we haven't seen him in OotP or HBP, it's likely that Voldemort doesn't consider him to be too important. Bellatrix may have married him because she wanted to be in control in her personal relationships, but it's really all speculation anyway.

I can't remember if he was one of the death eaters who broke out of azkaban in OotP

Yes he was one of them. ;)

but even if he did, as we haven't seen him in OotP or HBP, it's likely that Voldemort doesn't consider him to be too important.

Actually that is wrong Rell, he indeed is an important person since he was in the group of Death Eaters who were sent to the MoM to fetch the prophecy. Since Voldemort had sent only a selected few, this proves that he is indeed a key person in the group of Death Eaters. ;)

Yes he was one of them. ;)



Actually that is wrong Rell, he indeed is an important person since he was in the group of Death Eaters who were sent to the MoM to fetch the prophecy. Since Voldemort had sent only a selected few, this proves that he is indeed a key person in the group of Death Eaters. ;)

Was he at the DoM? I don't remember that.
Anyway, I'm also under the impression the Lestrange mentioned in the Slughorn memory wasn't actually Rodolphus, but an older relative of his. Either that or Bella married way up in age. I also never got the feeling that she married for love, but the marriage to Rodolphus was arranged by their parents. I mean, does anyone really see her as the "marrying" type?

best,
la femme

Was he at the DoM?

Yup.

Bellatrix, Rodolphus, you take left; Crabbe, Rabastan, go right....

Anyway, I'm also under the impression the Lestrange mentioned in the Slughorn memory wasn't actually Rodolphus, but an older relative of his. Either that or Bella married way up in age. I also never got the feeling that she married for love, but the marriage to Rodolphus was arranged by their parents. I mean, does anyone really see her as the "marrying" type?

best,
la femme
I believe in GoF, Sirius stated that Rodolphus was at school at the same time as him and Snape. He was one of Snape's "gang of Slytherins".

The books don't easily give the impression that Bellatrix felt any/much love for her husband, I agree. She seems far more interested on being Voldemort's loyal servant than anything else.

The books don't easily give the impression that Bellatrix felt any/much love for her husband, I agree. She seems far more interested on being Voldemort's loyal servant than anything else

What that suggests is that she might not have any love as such for her husband. I mean she deserted him in the DoM and fled and didn't bother about him at all...not a thing that a loving wife would do, this for one thing tells us about how self centered she is. :agree:

The books don't easily give the impression that Bellatrix felt any/much love for her husband, I agree. She seems far more interested on being Voldemort's loyal servant than anything else.
I don't think we've seen Bellatrix in the situations that would allow us to ascertain that. We see her being shipped off to azkaban, in battle, and with her sister and Snape. These situations tell us nothign about her relationship with her husband.

What that suggests is that she might not have any love as such for her husband. I mean she deserted him in the DoM and fled and didn't bother about him at all...not a thing that a loving wife would do, this for one thing tells us about how self centered she is. :agree:

Agreed. :)

The thing that stuck out in my mind the most about her lack of emotion was in HBP when she said to Narcissa that she should be proud that Voldemort had chosen Draco, and that she herself would have been delighted if her own child had been selected to do such a mission for her master.(Apologies for not providing a quote!) Of course, she has no children, but even if she did I don't imagine her having a maternal streak!

Of course, she has no children, but even if she did I don't imagine her having a maternal streak!

Exactly, I don't see her having any maternal qualities, I think she could have had a child before being captured but she never bothered, she was just to self consumed to be able to bring herself to be able to take care of a child and let go of her responsibilities as a faithful servant of Lord Voldemort. Clear indication of her selfishness and self centered attitude. :agree:

I agree mysterious and ImissPadfoot, Bellatrix's fanatical devotion to Voldemort seems to have deprived her of some basic human connections (and maybe her stay in azkaban influenced this as well). She puts Voldemort first and foremost always.

I believe in GoF, Sirius stated that Rodolphus was at school at the same time as him and Snape. He was one of Snape's "gang of Slytherins".

The books don't easily give the impression that Bellatrix felt any/much love for her husband, I agree. She seems far more interested on being Voldemort's loyal servant than anything else.

Has everyone forgotten Rabastan? He's Rodolphus' brother and has arrested and rescued along with the happely married couple. Furthermore in the Goblet of Fire Voldemort stood by their position and adressed all three of them as his most loyal followers. I'm pretty sure he was the one in the Pensieve.

Has everyone forgotten Rabastan? He's Rodolphus' brother and has arrested and rescued along with the happely married couple. Furthermore in the Goblet of Fire Voldemort stood by their position and adressed all three of them as his most loyal followers. I'm pretty sure he was the one in the Pensieve.

Sorry...I don't understand what you're saying, could you please elaborate?

Sirius said that Snape was befriended with the "Lestrange's", yet there was also a Lestrange in Sluggy's classroom with everybody's favorite prefect Tom. I think this would be Rabastan, Rodolphus' brother rather then father.

Sirius said that Snape was befriended with the "Lestrange's", yet there was also a Lestrange in Sluggy's classroom with everybody's favorite prefect Tom. I think this would be Rabastan, Rodolphus' brother rather then father.
From the HP Lexicon...

Lestrange, Rabastan. Slytherin, early 1970's, though strictly speaking, the book only specifies that Rabastan's brother and sister-in-law were Slytherins

Besides, Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts between 1938-1945 so it would be unlikely that Rodolphus would have a brother that much older.:)

Yeah, okay. Forgot just how old Voldemort is.

Yup.

Bellatrix, Rodolphus, you take left; Crabbe, Rabastan, go right....

Thanks! :)
Yes, Bella is certainly lacking in the emotional connections department. Very similar to Voldy, no? Loner, very self-involved, etc. The main difference I see between them is that Bella's idendity seems to be rather dependent on Voldy, whereas Voldy doesn't depend on anyone. Of course, I think that in Spinner's End we saw a shift in Bella when she outright stated that she didn't believe in Voldy's trust in Snape. What does that say about her current self-view when the person that she's looked to for righteousness and conviction in her beliefs is now falling from her graces?

best,
la femme

I think BEllatrix could turn good when she realises shes not Voldemorts favoerett

I think BEllatrix could turn good when she realises shes not Voldemorts favoerett
Hmm...not convinced. When you consider all the evil things she has done so far, torturing the Longbottom's to insanity being by far the cruellest that we know about, I think it's unlikely that she will turn good. In fact, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that her sadistic streak would become even stronger, in order to regain Voldemort's attention.:)

Bellatrix is a lost cause, perhaps even more then any other Death Eater.

I think BEllatrix could turn good when she realises shes not Voldemorts favoerett

I don't think that just because of that she will turn good, like IMissPadfoot has pointed out that she was trying to become the best when she tortured the Longbottoms to insanity, I think she will do something similar to regain her label of the favorite Death Eater. I don't see her turning good in the least, IMO her chances of becoming good is as scarce as that of Harry turning out to be evil. ;)

I don't think that just because of that she will turn good, like IMissPadfoot has pointed out that she was trying to become the best when she tortured the Longbottoms to insanity, I think she will do something similar to regain her label of the favorite Death Eater. I don't see her turning good in the least, IMO her chances of becoming good is as scarce as that of Harry turning out to be evil. ;)

I agree. I think that she could go two ways: 1) She'll do something hugely cruel and awful to get back into Voldy's favor or 2) She's looking out for #1 now (herself) and doesn't care what she does or who she hurts to the point of becoming extremely reckless. In other words, everyone is her enemy including Voldy.

best,
la femme

I think that Bellatrix enjoys causing pain too much to be likely to turn out good. When Voldemort dies/becomes incapacitated/whatever at the end of DH, I see Bellatrix becoming completely insane.

everyone is her enemy including Voldy.


I don't think that she will ever go against her master. :no: She is more like a faithful elf than a faithful follower, she can do anything and everything for Lord Voldemort.

I think that she could go two ways: 1) She'll do something hugely cruel and awful to get back into Voldy's favor or 2) She's looking out for #1 now (herself) and doesn't care what she does or who she hurts to the point of becoming extremely reckless. In other words, everyone is her enemy including Voldy.
I don't think that she will ever go against her master. :no: She is more like a faithful elf than a faithful follower, she can do anything and everything for Lord Voldemort.
I'd just like to say that I agree with lafemmenissa's suggestions concerning Bella's future, especially the second one (although Bella may show us some kind of affections towards Narcissa - I think Bella will try to avoid to hurt her). I've thought for a long time that Bella possibly will end up as a danger to Voldemort. She's not the person she was when she came out of Azkaban. Both Bella and Barty Crouch Jr. are (or Barty were, but nobody knows whether he's still alive or not, I guess) fanatical about Voldemort and his cause, but the way I see it, there is a crucial difference between them (apart from one of them being soul-less): Crouch is a cold-blooded follower, but Bella is hot-blooded. Crouch is rational and calculating - his year as Moody at Hogwarts firmly establishes that. Bella could never have done such a job, she's way too rash. And I think the fact that she is a very emotional person will also, at some point, make her furious with Voldemort himself. After all, she's probably never got the reward she thought she deserved after Azkaban. And Spinner's End showed us that her belief in her master isn't blind - she has some doubts concerning his judgement of Snape.
I think she's changing.

She probably was one of his favorites in the period between her release and her failure at the Ministery.

She probably was one of his favorites in the period between her release and her failure at the Ministery.
:welcome: Emperor_Gestahl!
I think that would depend on how much Bellatrix was affected by Azkaban. If she came back damaged, (which is entirely possible), Voldemort would have little use for her.

In book 4 Voldemort that his most loyal servants would be sprung and awarded greatly.

Bellatrix: He shares everything with me! He calls me his most trusted, most faithful-'
Snape: 'Does he? Does he still after the Ministery fiasco?'

I agree that she was tainted by Azkaban but a little fanatic insanity could be a good thing in the eyes of the Dark Lord as opposed to his other servants who left him when he was vanquisted.

I've thought for a long time that Bella possibly will end up as a danger to Voldemort.

Actually I think I agree with that, Bellatrix might indeed become a great danger for Voldemort if she gets that impression that she is no longer as close to Voldemort as she thinks she is, she won't turn good...and I don't want her to, Harry needs some opponent, if all turn good then the book will become boring. :lol:

Voldemort won't die until the very end. But she'll be more a hazard then a danger, she'll be so focused on regaining histrust that she will screw up more and more.

Voldemort won't die until the very end. But she'll be more a hazard then a danger, she'll be so focused on regaining histrust that she will screw up more and more.

Actually, I really see her feeling incredibly wronged by Voldy. She God-worshipped him for most of her life and devoted herself entirely to his cause. Now, after one mistake he turns on her, snubs her. The fact that she voiced her mistrust in his judgement is a very big thing. I liken it to any religious fanatic saying aloud that they believe their particular diety is wrong. Whoa! That doesn't happen everyday and it is usually the result of a major shift in the fanatic's beliefs. Does she still believe in blood purity supremacy? Of course, she always has and she always will. Will she still offer her unwavering devotion to Voldy? I'm not convinced of that. I'm very inclined to think that she will take matters into her own hands and ultimately become a danger (either purposely or inadvertantly) to anyone she comes across, including herself.

best,
la femme

Yet even if she ultimately looses faith in Voldemort, I doubt Bellatrix would stop following him. It would mean reworking her entire identity. And when Voldemort finally dies (which is what i assume will happen), I think she'll go completely insane - as she has no life outside of serving Voldemort.

I think Bella isn't going to stop her evil ways. She enjoys the pain and torture too much. Even if she's feeling slighted by the Dark Lord, she'll still do whatever she can to get back into has good graces. She's one of the few DE's who don't do what they do for LV out of mostly fear - she operates out of mostly love (for him).
she may be insane - she may have even been insane pre-Azkaban. But, if she becomes completely insane, I see her operating as rogue agent, in a way - she'll go around and torture / maim / kill out of her own volition; not under LV's orders. She's already shown once she'll operate independantly of LV (when she tortured the Longbottoms); I see her doing that again. And, if she survives longer than LV, I see her going on a revenge rampage of potentially epic proportions, which will only end upon her death or incarceration.

Bella would, even more so than the other DE's, do anything in her service of LV. She, however, seems to be one of the few who would also go ahead and do things that LV did not order (IMO); for instance, she wasn't afraid of going out and torturing the Longbottoms, and she was willing to torture Neville, too.

The fascination with the cruciatus curse does point to a sadist streak (streak may be understating it).

I hadn't thought about the baby talk...but it is creepy, yes. It almost seems like a game to her; like she's got a detachment from reality.

I rather think her "comeuppance" will come in the normal course of battle...if it comes at all. I posted a similar thought on another thread not too long ago; but I think that Bella, if she is defeated, won't be from Neville having an agenda with her (or Harry, etc). She's a very powerful witch - she was the only DE to escape from the MoM, and her known "wins" in battle include, at the least, Tonks, Kingsley (sort of), Sirius, and the Longbottoms. That's an impressive list. She may be taken out blindside (though this'll be difficult - witness her reflexes against DD and Harry - she's scary fast) while fighting another person, but it will be very, very difficult. Her tendency to view the whole being a DE thing as a game may be her undoing...who knows.

All in all, a fascinating, if utterly deplorable, witch (IMO)

I think she'll go completely insane - as she has no life outside of serving Voldemort.


Uh...she has no life outside Dark Arts, who knows she might as well create her own world of Dark Arts..:eyebrows:...but no, I don't think she is capable enough of doing that, else she could have grabbed the golden opportunity that was presented to her when Voldemort vanished. She could have stepped up and claimed the throne, but no she doesn't do that, leaving the throne for the king, she could easily have said that she was just acting as the caretaker of the throne, but she had no such intention thereby proving that she is incompetent and incapable and can never rise to the post of Voldemort, she will forever be a faithful servant, the rider from the north. :lol: