The Snape Triumvirate: Snape the Hero V2

After a good start with all three threads, we've now reached version 2 of the Hero thread. The only change to the guidelines below is that I have included a link to the forum rules in the thread.

Version 1 can be found - here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=95322). The last few posts from version 1 can be found below.



The object of this thread is to discuss Snape's heroic/good guy qualities in the books. Obviously some people will believe that this idea flies in the face of all we have come to perceive Snape to be through the books, particularly after events in Half-Blood Prince.

However, there is a proportioon of fans, maybe quite a large proportion, who do have some interesting theories that are worth reading. As this is a discussion of Snape's heroic character, the rules are as follows:

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If you do not believe Snape is a hero/good guy and see him as a villain/bad guy, please do not post in this thread. Post in THIS (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=4060608#post4060608 ) thread.
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Last few posts from version 1.

I think this is an excellent point. I would think this as much as a magical reason is why both Snape and Dumbledore are able to tell when they are being fibbed to or not told everything.

I've often thought that Legilimency is probably the most "realistic" magic - in that it's based on the most important lie detection technique - eye contact. Basic Legilimency, like basic lie detection, can, evidently, be performed without a wand as Snape and Dumbledore are able to detect lies and betrayal of emotion quite easily by simply reading the person's face and looking into their eyes.

What lots of kids don't realize - and I mean most kids - is that teachers ALWAYS know when students are lying - I know this being both a child of a teacher and with experience in lying about homework and other things. It's part of the reason I love Snape so much as a character - he uses basic lie detection techniques to PROVE students are lying, and punishes them for it, and it's so obvious that he knows they're lying that they don't argue.


Welcome Hufley! I see you have already been welcomed by Ignisia who seems to have a lot more free time than me as of late, however I have finnaly gotten back to CoS after about two months or so. Suprisingly there isn't that much to catch up on.Aparently I am not suscribed to the right threads.

I think that Snape would make a wonderful dectective. He always catches Harry in a lie, even back in books two and three when we didn't know very much about that branch of obscure magic that everyone and their grandmother seems to know about. What I really like about Snape is that he not only knows when Harry is lying, but he calls him on it. He doesn't let him get away with smarting off unlike a majority of the other teachers. But because of the way those other teachers treat him he seems to think that it is his right to be treated special and allowed to talk during class, because after all, he is discussing how to sneak into places he isn't allowed so he can single handedly save the school or win the Triwizard Cup.


Welcome Hufley! I see you have already been welcomed by Ignisia who seems to have a lot more free time than me as of late, however I have finnaly gotten back to CoS after about two months or so. Suprisingly there isn't that much to catch up on.Aparently I am not suscribed to the right threads.

I think that Snape would make a wonderful dectective. He always catches Harry in a lie, even back in books two and three when we didn't know very much about that branch of obscure magic that everyone and their grandmother seems to know about. What I really like about Snape is that he not only knows when Harry is lying, but he calls him on it. He doesn't let him get away with smarting off unlike a majority of the other teachers. But because of the way those other teachers treat him he seems to think that it is his right to be treated special and allowed to talk during class, because after all, he is discussing how to sneak into places he isn't allowed so he can single handedly save the school or win the Triwizard Cup.Somewhat.

But then again, Snape really does hate Harry, becuase Harry is related to James.

So while he doesn't let Harry get away with things, he doesn't let Harry get away with ANYTHING. Besides, Harry doesn't think he's above rules...he's a teenager. Come on, don't tell me you've never talked during a class, especially when something exciting is going on. Harry's life is one big exciting.

Also, he lets the Slytherins get away with anything, which shows he is an absolutely biased teacher.

I think McGonogal fits your description better than Snape...while she doesn't hate Harry, she doesn't let him goof off in class. But this isn't a McGonogal discussion thread, so I won't go into that any more.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome!


Somewhat.

So while he doesn't let Harry get away with things, he doesn't let Harry get away with ANYTHING. Besides, Harry doesn't think he's above rules...he's a teenager. Come on, don't tell me you've never talked during a class, especially when something exciting is going on. Harry's life is one big exciting.

Also, he lets the Slytherins get away with anything, which shows he is an absolutely biased teacher.


Personally I think every teacher in this series has shown "bias" in favor of Harry so perhaps Snape just provides the balance.
And in an old boarding school system like this one....you bet didn't get to "talk in class" etc etc in manner you might find in a North American school.


The foe-glass is one of my favorite reasons to believe Snape is a good guy. He shows up there with McGonagall and Dumbledore. I find that difficult for any naysayer to explain away.

Well to Barty Crouch Jr. all the Death Eaters who were out of Azkaban were enemies, so no wonder Snape showed in it. ;)

Does the foe glass react on who you think is your foe, or who is really your foe? Because I was under the impression that it acted completely independent from any of your thoughts or opinions.

The Foe-Glasses can be fooled into acceptance that so and so is your enemy. ;)


It really surprises me that he attended Slughorn's party, he seems more the type to look cynically at everyone while standing alone in the corner.

If truth be told I suspect that he was either forced or joined because of a personal motive, I don't have any idea currently but I will look into it definitely.

I've often thought that Legilimency is probably the most "realistic" magic - in that it's based on the most important lie detection technique - eye contact. Basic Legilimency, like basic lie detection, can, evidently, be performed without a wand as Snape and Dumbledore are able to detect lies and betrayal of emotion quite easily by simply reading the person's face and looking into their eyes.

What lots of kids don't realize - and I mean most kids - is that teachers ALWAYS know when students are lying - I know this being both a child of a teacher and with experience in lying about homework and other things. It's part of the reason I love Snape so much as a character - he uses basic lie detection techniques to PROVE students are lying, and punishes them for it, and it's so obvious that he knows they're lying that they don't argue.

I guess all of those who doubt various versions of Legilimency should read this (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4196009&postcount=1420), it might help change your opinion. ;)

Mmmm, need my morning dose of Snapery goodness....anyone?

YAY! Thanks for the new version, Morgoth! *boogies down* The discussion is thrivin'!

Inky, I need my daily dose too.
Ooooh, we could talk about Snape's role in book 2!
Or...uh....his early life!
Or how he became a Death Eater!
Or......well, there are a lot of things...

hi everyone. i'm new. but i've read somewhere..can't exactly remember where..somebody's comments on Snape's facial expression when he performed the AK on Dumby in HBP. Snape's face was etched with hatred and revulsion. My thoughts are that Dumbledore asked Snape to make him the same promise that Harry made to Dumbledore before accompanying him to get the fake Horcrux. That no matter what, Snape would, as Harry promised, obey Dumbledore's orders.
If you would look back to part where Dumbledore was drinking the potion, Harry's feelings were EXACTLY the same as Snape's facial expression.
After Dumbledore drank half of the fourth goblet, he stopped and Harry had to force him.
"HATING himself, REPULSED by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that DUmbledore drank the remainder of what was inside."
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was HATRED and REVULSION etched in the harsh lines of his face."

Harry obviously couldn't see what HIS face looked like while he was pouring the potion down Dumbledore's throat.
I think Snape was therefore acting on DUmbledore's orders as well.
Remember the end, when Harry chased after Snape and tried to Sectumsempra and Levicorpus him? and Snape gave Harry advice that both Dumbledore and Snape has been trying to teach him all this time " Blocked again and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" I think it was a hint Snape was trying to give Harry. If you cant even hurt me with a SINGLE spell, Potter, how the heck do you think you'd be able to kill Voldy?

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"
Harry had no idea how much Snape had to go through, if Harry had thought it hard to force Dumbledore to drink potion, how much braver did Snape have to be to KILL Dumbledore.

So es. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.

I would like to believe this too, in fact, these were my thoughts, almost exactly, as I read HBP the first time. If it is true, Snape would certainly be the best teacher Harry is likely to ever encounter.

hi everyone. i'm new.

:welcome: Welcome to CoS and Hero thread. :cool:


Remember the end, when Harry chased after Snape and tried to Sectumsempra and Levicorpus him? and Snape gave Harry advice that both Dumbledore and Snape has been trying to teach him all this time " Blocked again and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" I think it was a hint Snape was trying to give Harry. If you cant even hurt me with a SINGLE spell, Potter, how the heck do you think you'd be able to kill Voldy?

Exactly. Snape knows as much as Dumbledore (or more) about how Voldemort works. He knows that Voldemort is cunning and will do all he can to kill Harry. And that's a lot. He wants Harry as prepared as Harry can be.


And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"
Harry had no idea how much Snape had to go through, if Harry had thought it hard to force Dumbledore to drink potion, how much braver did Snape have to be to KILL Dumbledore.

I think their actions were about the same (though Harry's was different in that he didn't know what the potion did, whereas Snape knew exactly what would happen when the AK hit) but it's true that if this was a plan, killing Dumbledore has to be one of the bravest things Snape has ever done (and he's done some pretty darn brave stuff. Turning away from Voldemort and going back to him in GoF in the face of almost certain death come to mind). He has just sacrificed everything: His job (both of them), his home, his freedom, his position, his protector, his friends, and the trust of the world. He's a fugitive now, and has to be at the constant beck and call of a snake-faced loony who will torture him whenever the whim hits.


So yes. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.

It's very probable. Snape has very little to lose.
I'm still holding out hope, though. *crosses fingers*

If it is true, Snape would certainly be the best teacher Harry is likely to ever encounter.

:tu: Amazingly dedicated!

If you would look back to part where Dumbledore was drinking the potion, Harry's feelings were EXACTLY the same as Snape's facial expression.
After Dumbledore drank half of the fourth goblet, he stopped and Harry had to force him.
"HATING himself, REPULSED by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so that DUmbledore drank the remainder of what was inside."
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was HATRED and REVULSION etched in the harsh lines of his face."

" Blocked again and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" I think it was a hint Snape was trying to give Harry. If you cant even hurt me with a SINGLE spell, Potter, how the heck do you think you'd be able to kill Voldy?

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"

So es. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.

Hey shiny new thread. :D

When I was reading HBP the similiarity in the words used to describe Harry's feelings and Snape's expression struck me immediately. They are also a darn strong indicator
of where the story's going as well. I just don't think Rowling used similar descriptions for similiar incidents by accident.

Coward is just about the last thing Snape is. Even though I thought it just about the
dumbest thing Snape ever did....you have to admit going down into the Whomping Willow on the advice of an enemy...well there is a certain amount of "bravery" involved.
I think Harry's comments aren't surprising though. Most people don't see "bravery" unless it's obvious and in their faces.

Sadly I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Snape does the "ultimate sacrifice" although I kind of hope he gets to live ..somehow.

:clap:

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"
Harry had no idea how much Snape had to go through, if Harry had thought it hard to force Dumbledore to drink potion, how much braver did Snape have to be to KILL Dumbledore.

So es. i DO think that in the end, Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry.[/QUOTE]


EXCELLENT POST. Just what I was feeling too, and you put it very eloquently. Thanks.

And the fact that Snape was SO affected when Harry called him a coward..."DONT - screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, ' CALL ME A COWARD!"

Coward was the last thing Snape would have wanted to hear, he had just distanced himself from the order and reclaimed himself the title of a traitor. He had just got his soul split for the sake of the order and for all this sacrifice what he was getting was being called COWARD. This was not fair and his reaction was totally justified and this is one of the reasons why I expect him to be a hero. ;)

Coward was the last thing Snape would have wanted to hear, he had just distanced himself from the order and reclaimed himself the title of a traitor. He had just got his soul split for the sake of the order and for all this sacrifice what he was getting was being called COWARD. This was not fair and his reaction was totally justified and this is one of the reasons why I expect him to be a hero. ;)

Absolutely! :clap: Like Scout and Jem in To Kill A Mockingbird, Harry has to learn that courage isn't a man with a gun/wand in his hand, and that is the most powerful thing that Snape can teach him.

Ha New Thread! Yeah!

Okay so I was thinking that Snape at Slughorns party was such a wallflower! Actually he kinda makes me think of my husband at parties. All he does is sit in a corner and drink his scotch and watch everyone else dance! Anyway...

I was really struck by the language used by JKR in comparing Snape in as much pain as Fang. I was so sad when I read that! ( I love all animals so I can totally symathize) Snape just has to be good. I too thought that Snape might die in book 7 but when JKR said one person got a reprive the first on that came to mind was Snape. :) I hope so!

Hey question for the thread: How do you guys think Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

Just some thoughts! Happy Thanksgiving! :)

Okay so I was thinking that Snape at Slughorns party was such a wallflower!

I think he was forced to come to the party seeing that almost all Staff members were there therefore he could not refuse it. :no:

How do you guys thing Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

I think he got the name Snivellus because of his greasy appearance, I mean he was not at all cool and had a sticky appearance that must have prodded the marauders (probably James or Sirius) to name him Snivellus. ;)

Ha New Thread! Yeah!

http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/10.gif


Okay so I was thinking that Snape at Slughorns party was such a wallflower!

I absolutely love imagining him standing in the corner and glaring at everyone....

Haven't I mentioned that before? ^^;


but when JKR said one person got a reprive the first on that came to mind was Snape. :) I hope so!

He was my first thought too. His chances of survival are as ambiguous as he.


Hey question for the thread: How do you guys think Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

It's spelled Snivellus. I think that perhaps he did show emotion (sorrow, fear, maybe) at one point, and was called Snivellus for it. It would explain his "fools with their hearts on their sleeves" speech. If showing emotion was something he was constantly "punished" for, I can understand him thinking that it is wrong to be emotional.


Just some thoughts! Happy Thanksgiving! :)

Happy thanksgiving to you too. I'm not sure what my parents are going to cook up this year (and when. We've never been much for planning) but I wanna help. It's great being in the kitchen and smelling the taters and gravy and turkey and sauce and stuffing and........................mmmm.....*trails off and stares dreamily into the distance*

It's spelled Snivellus. I think that perhaps he did show emotion (sorrow, fear, maybe) at one point, and was called Snivellus for it. It would explain his "fools with their hearts on their sleeves" speech. If showing emotion was something he was constantly "punished" for, I can understand him thinking that it is wrong to be emotional.

Ooh, good point. "Snivellus" does imply snivelling/tears and mucus (yuk :lol:) so I can definitely see your theory being true there - especially if the little boy in SWM (who I think was upset/crying? My copy of the book is in another city :() was actually him.

It could also tie in somewhat with his negative reaction to Harry calling him a coward at the end of HBP. Not only had he quite patently not been a coward, but he'd also maybe had to learn from a very early age not to be so "snivelly".

Ooh, good point. "Snivellus" does imply snivelling/tears and mucus (yuk :lol:) so I can definitely see your theory being true there - especially if the little boy in SWM (who I think was upset/crying? My copy of the book is in another city :() was actually him.


I just checked it out, the little boy in the memory was crying. And in the corner too.


It could also tie in somewhat with his negative reaction to Harry calling him a coward at the end of HBP. Not only had he quite patently not been a coward, but he'd also maybe had to learn from a very early age not to be so "snivelly".

I've never thought of that, but I think it's a good point. I can definitely see Snape scornful of any form of cowardice, since that word does seem to imply someone like Pettigrew, who whingingly kowtows to anyone who will keep him safe. It takes away one's dignity and self-worth, and I don't think Snape would be very keen on that.

Ha New Thread! Yeah!

I was really struck by the language used by JKR in comparing Snape in as much pain as Fang. I was so sad when I read that! ( I love all animals so I can totally symathize) Snape just has to be good. I too thought that Snape might die in book 7 but when JKR said one person got a reprive the first on that came to mind was Snape. :) I hope so!

Hey question for the thread: How do you guys think Snape got the nickname Snivilus (sp) by the mauraders? I mean that implys someone who cries and showes emotion; not well known Snape traits.

Just some thoughts! Happy Thanksgiving! :)


I'm not someone who's particularly upset when movies change things from books but
I'll be more than a litte testy if we don't get the howling dog, the fire, Snape's reaction to Harry's comments etc....in the film version of HBP. It really puts out there just how tragic a decision Snape had to make on the Tower.

OK back on topic.
I've wondered if perhaps Snape as younger boy, especially in his first year at Hogwarts
was a more emotional type and that perhaps he didn't know how to stand up for himself and it came across as "snivelling and whining".
Well that would have just been like waving a red flag in front of bull to the more socially competent kids like James Potter or Sirius Black.
Couple that in with Snape's appearance at the time....recipe for an unflattering and I think undeserved nickname.

Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:


He has just been forced, on Dumbledore's orders, to kill Dumbledore, a close ally, and the greatest wizard Snape has ever known
He was forced to do so to evade his own death - he killed to save his life, which usually leaves an imprint on one no matter how tough they are
And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.

Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:


He has just been forced, on Dumbledore's orders, to kill Dumbledore, a close ally, and the greatest wizard Snape has ever known
He was forced to do so to evade his own death - he killed to save his life, which usually leaves an imprint on one no matter how tough they are
And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.


I think Snape doesn't like being called a coward because he framed himself for the murder of the most loved wizard alive so he could go into deep cover and assist in the defeat of Voldemort. He did this against his wishes because he was loyal to Dumbledore and like the good and brave soldier he was, he followed his order. This view comes of course from my acceptence of the DIATSSISE theory.

anyway just a part i really liked in HBp. When Slughorn threw out an arm and scooped Snape out of thin air to join him. and shouted "STOp Skulking...."

hahahaha. because that's exactly what Snape does, skulks. anyway, this is just in relation to the wallflower post.

Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:


And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.


That's a good catch. Not sure anyone's really mentioned this before.

anyway just a part i really liked in HBp. When Slughorn threw out an arm and scooped Snape out of thin air to join him. and shouted "STOp Skulking...."

hahahaha. because that's exactly what Snape does, skulks. anyway, this is just in relation to the wallflower post.

:lol: Yes, that entire part is really funny. Snape is "trapped" by Slughorn's arm into socialising. You can tell he doesn't like it. :p

Lorna, I agree, it is a good catch. Harry recalls to him an example of someone Snape believes is a true coward.

I think the main reason Snape doesn't like being called coward is because this whole time he has been doing everything in his power to help Harry vanquish Voldemort. Also it must have been an extremely hard thing for Snape to do when he killed Dumbledore. I aways got the feeling that Snape had deep respect for Dumbledore and vice versa. Snape is not able to tell Harry the truth about everything because it would put Snape in a worse predicament. I always felt that Snape wanted to maintain a wall between Harry and himself purposely. The link that Voldemort shares with Harry most likely plays into this. If Voldemort picks up on any feelings Harry has for Snape they would need to be negative or Voldemort wouldn't trust Snape as well.

Regarding the name, Snivellus, I favor it being due to crying as a child--a name he earned at Hogwarts for it. Whether he did it openly or in a bathroom, such as Moaning Myrtle or Draco, I have no idea. This goes along with the sense I get that Snape believes emotions that show vulnerability make one weak. He learned that showing his unhappiness or hurt feelings only leads to more pain--a nasty nickname. By SWM, he doesn't cry, he lashes out. He doesn't quite understand yet that his reaction is what makes attacking him entertaining to James and Sirius. Carrying this further, I believe that he loved Lily and it was used against him by Voldemort--another emotion that Snape learned was dangerous to reveal in any way. By his late 30's Snape has suppressed any emotion that can possibly be conceived as a vulnerability. Thus, his warning to Harry about fools wearing their hearts proudly on their sleeves. He shows only a sarcastic exterior, which camouflages any true feelings that could be used against him.

Regarding Snape's feelings on being called a coward, I don't think Snape cares. The first time Harry called him a coward, Snape responded with a sarcastic retort. It was not until Dumbledore was mentioned and Harry called him a coward for having killed Dumbledore that he reacted and showed his feelings to Harry--pain like the dog in the burning house behind him. This is very significant given what I said above. Snape was in so much pain that he was unable to hide it. It's possible that there was also an element of wanting to show Harry also. Could he even have been looking for some understanding from Harry? Anyway, I don't really think this pain had anything to do with being reminded that the wizarding world would see him as a coward--he knows he is not. I think the pain he showed had everything to do with how he felt about having killed Dumbledore, his mentor and, I believe, father figure.

As far as I'm concerned, Snape is split into three alter egos/personalities:


Professor Snape, the nasty, bullying, villain-among-the-staff who has no tolerance for incompetence, lives in a dungeon, and has a brilliantly witty, yet viciously nasty, retort ready at a whim to ANYTHING
The Half Blood Prince, the clever, brilliant boy who not only experimented successfully with advanced Potions, but invented many spells as well, while still a sixth year Hogwarts student
"Snivellus" - the pitiful, isolated, friendless, bullied and slightly nerdy student who is mercilessly bullied by James Potter and Sirius Black. Despite this, he has a few tricks up his sleeve to counter this.


I've always thought that he earned the nickname of "Snivellus" because, well, for one thing, Severus is a very unusual name. I've often wondered how his Muggle father agreed to name him that. I agree with how the nickname may have come about, though; while I can't really see Snape crying at school, he is certainly a very isolated person, and this is obvious to anyone, giving the appearance of "snivelling". Quite nasty when you think about it...

I think that his appearance of "snivelling" might have been what compelled Snape to become a superb Occlumens.

I'm not sure Severus is that unusual considering the number of odd and latin names used in the wizarding world. For that matter wasn't his father's name Tobias or something like that.
But one could certain see how it might be morphed into Snivellius.

For me, Snivellus has always suggested "cry baby", which is why I get really peeved when the other side try to argue that SWM is misleading and the Marauders didn't really bully Snape - the name suggests to me that they frequently bullied him until he cried.

After months of stubbornly refusing to theorize about Snape, the scales suddenly fell from my eyes. And just in time for a new Hero thread it seems. Lucky me. :)

I always felt that Snape wanted to maintain a wall between Harry and himself purposely.

I agree.

Snape is not able to tell Harry the truth about everything because it would put Snape in a worse predicament.

I suppose he could have a selfish motive.

By SWM, he doesn't cry, he lashes out. He doesn't quite understand yet that his reaction is what makes attacking him entertaining to James and Sirius.

Ooh, good point!

Regarding Snape's feelings on being called a coward, I don't think Snape cares. The first time Harry called him a coward, Snape responded with a sarcastic retort. It was not until Dumbledore was mentioned and Harry called him a coward for having killed Dumbledore that he reacted and showed his feelings to Harry--pain like the dog in the burning house behind him. This is very significant given what I said above. Snape was in so much pain that he was unable to hide it. It's possible that there was also an element of wanting to show Harry also. Could he even have been looking for some understanding from Harry? Anyway, I don't really think this pain had anything to do with being reminded that the wizarding world would see him as a coward--he knows he is not. I think the pain he showed had everything to do with how he felt about having killed Dumbledore, his mentor and, I believe, father figure.

Even better point. :D

As far as I'm concerned, Snape is split into three alter egos/personalities:
Professor Snape, the nasty, bullying, villain-among-the-staff who has no tolerance for incompetence, lives in a dungeon, and has a brilliantly witty, yet viciously nasty, retort ready at a whim to ANYTHING
The Half Blood Prince, the clever, brilliant boy who not only experimented successfully with advanced Potions, but invented many spells as well, while still a sixth year Hogwarts student
"Snivellus" - the pitiful, isolated, friendless, bullied and slightly nerdy student who is mercilessly bullied by James Potter and Sirius Black. Despite this, he has a few tricks up his sleeve to counter this.

Oh, I have been missing out. :D

I've always thought that he earned the nickname of "Snivellus" because, well, for one thing, Severus is a very unusual name.

Not much worse than Sirius.

I think it's mainly that students, especially boys, only called each other by surname or nickname. I suspect the fact Snape had a first name might have been amusing enough for James and Sirius to give him his delightful little nickname.

After months of stubbornly refusing to theorize about Snape, the scales suddenly fell from my eyes. And just in time for a new Hero thread it seems. Lucky me.

Awww, how come you didn't want to talk about Snape? ;) He's an interesting subject. :p

For me, Snivellus has always suggested "cry baby", which is why I get really peeved when the other side try to argue that SWM is misleading and the Marauders didn't really bully Snape - the name suggests to me that they frequently bullied him until he cried.

Yes, I find it personally insulting when people theorise that Snape "started" SWM. Most people have been bullied at some point or other, so we all know that all it takes is for us to be different in a way the bully doesn't like. :grumble:

Awww, how come you didn't want to talk about Snape? ;)

I suspected there was a great continuum of highly contentious theories and no good way to discriminate among them.

He's an interesting subject. :p

Yes, I can certainly see that. :D

Yes, I find it personally insulting when people theorise that Snape "started" SWM.

No need to be personally insulted. People like to argue.

I suspected there was a great continuum of highly contentious theories and no good way to discriminate among them.


I suppose he's just a subject that everyone has strong feelings about. :huh:


No need to be personally insulted. People like to argue.

^^; Well, it kind of difficult to stop how you feel.

Nice to see a new thread about this just started, I'm pretty new here so I like this:D
Snape is deeply offended at being called a coward, for several reasons:


He has just been forced, on Dumbledore's orders, to kill Dumbledore, a close ally, and the greatest wizard Snape has ever known
He was forced to do so to evade his own death - he killed to save his life, which usually leaves an imprint on one no matter how tough they are
And, yes, because the one calling him a coward is the spitting image of his father, who indeed never attacked Snape unless it was four on one.


You summed it all up pretty well.

Awww, how come you didn't want to talk about Snape? He's an interesting subject. Before I started reading those forums I never saw Snape as being a subject to be talked about here. I knew little about those kind of forums(A).
It could be selfish of Snape to 'make a wall between him and Harry' but as said before he would probably put himself in even greater danger.

Nice to see a new thread about this just started, I'm pretty new here so I like this:D

:welcome:
( :lol: I feel like a Walmart Greeter:
"Hi, Welcome to Hero!"
"Hi, Welcome to Hero!"
"Hi, Welcome to Hero!")

There have been tons of people coming here lately, so I get a happy squishy feeling at all the posters arriving. http://bestsmileys.com/blushing/7.gif

It could be selfish of Snape to 'make a wall between him and Harry' but as said before he would probably put himself in even greater danger.

Yes, especially when one considers that Voldemort has the ability to see through Harry's eyes.
In HBP, though, he is Occluding against it. I've heard a theory that Snape was responsible for this by tricking Voldemort into shutting Harry out...

I suppose he's just a subject that everyone has strong feelings about. :huh:

He certainly is.

^^; Well, it kind of difficult to stop how you feel.

Naturally.

It could be selfish of Snape to 'make a wall between him and Harry'

I don't think it is. :)

Originally posted by ignisia

( I feel like a Walmart Greeter:
"Hi, Welcome to Hero!"
"Hi, Welcome to Hero!"
"Hi, Welcome to Hero!")

Hehe thankyou!

Originally posted by ignisia
Yes, especially when one considers that Voldemort has the ability to see through Harry's eyes.
In HBP, though, he is Occluding against it. I've heard a theory that Snape was responsible for this by tricking Voldemort into shutting Harry out...
Interisting idea if I understand what you're saying.
You mean that Snape made Voldemort shut out Harry?
Could you tell me how exactly?

Originally posted by capella_black
I don't think it is.
Neither do I;).

Interisting idea if I understand what you're saying.
You mean that Snape made Voldemort shut out Harry?
Could you tell me how exactly?


Well, I didn't exactly make the theory up myself, but I assume it would involve Snape saying something to Voldemort along the lines of: "Hey, Voldie, you know how you can sort of see through Potter's eyes at random times? Well, he can do the same thing, and he has said that he has seen some of your meetings with certain Death Eaters. He has these visions quite frequently, and *LIE*and he seems to have some control over them, from what I've observed*LIE*, so it's entirely possible that he might hear your big master plans and report them to Dumbledore."
Just something to get Voldemort scared enough to Occlude.

He has these visions quite frequently, and *LIE*
Well I disagree there:D from what I know he actually had them frequently. At a certain moment he says that in a week he had the 'dream' a couple of times and each time 'they' went deeper inside.I could be wrong but things are getting more loose everytime. I guess its time for another re-read:D
That theory ain't bad:D I would like to read more about it. I'm going to look it up!;) thanks

Well I disagree there:D from what I know he actually had them frequently. At a certain moment he says that in a week he had the 'dream' a couple of times and each time 'they' went deeper inside.I could be wrong but things are getting more loose everytime. I guess its time for another re-read:D


Oh no, you misread. This was the lie:
*LIE*and he seems to have some control over them, from what I've observed*LIE*,

Ah my bad I'm sorry:$:D wasn't paying to much attention to the punctioning.

Well, I'm new to this thread, so I'll just post my general Snape feelings.

When it comes to the whole Dumbledore scene:

JK said that Dumbledore is dead, not that Snape killed him, at least, not that Snape murdered him, which is important. There's a difference between murdering someone and killing someone. If Snape double crossed Dumbledore and killed him against his orders, than Snape is a murderer. If Dumbledore told Snape to kill him to help some sort of greater good than it was not murder.

Now, there's also a possibility that Snape didn't kill him at all, murder or not. Dumbledore could have been killed by the fall, he could have been killed by something at the bottom of the tower, he could have been killed by something totally new, right before he was hit by Snape's curse. Why do I think this is possible? Well, I believe that Snape is good, and that he and Dumbledore were in on it together. If this is true, Dumbledore would do everything he could to preserve Snape's soul while he "appeared" to kill him. Do you see what I mean?

While Dumbledore is dead, there were still many odd things surrounding his death, most of them well known. For that reason and others I believe that Snape either was told to kill Dumbledore by the Headmaster himself or didn't kill him at all.

Concerning the Snape vs. the Maruaders ordeal:

Just because the Marauders are considered the "good guys" but most fans and readers doesn't mean they were. From what we know Snape was bullied and mistreated and was right to retaliate, IMO.

Concerning the Snape vs. Harry relationship:

IMO, Snape was one the best teachers Harry has had. He's not one to be caught up in the whole "chosen one" thing as most other teachers were. Also, he didn't treat him any better, in fact, we treated him worse; demanding more and more, which is to be expected. Also, look at things from Snape's point of view. Harry is a mouthy little cheater who uses his fame to get out of things and has a certain disregard and disrespect for the rule. Who wouldn't be mean to him?

For all those reasons, Snape is a hero.

Just a reminder that character bashing is frowned on...try to be considerate of fans of other characters.

I suspected there was a great continuum of highly contentious theories and no good way to discriminate among them.

That's half the fun of it! :rotfl:

Hi, RaspberryJam! Loved your post, and welcome to the Hero thread! :cool:

Now, there's also a possibility that Snape didn't kill him at all, murder or not. Dumbledore could have been killed by the fall, he could have been killed by something at the bottom of the tower, he could have been killed by something totally new, right before he was hit by Snape's curse.

It is completely possible-- in fact, probable. Did you notice how Dumbledore had a trickle on blood coming out of his mouth when Harry saw the body on the ground? How can Dumbledore have bled after being hit with an AK? So the fall might have been what really did it. If killing Dumbledore was a huge emotional thing for Snape, his curse might not have had the umph needed to really kill.

Concerning the Snape vs. the Maruaders ordeal:

Just because the Marauders are considered the "good guys" but most fans and readers doesn't mean they were. From what we know Snape was bullied and mistreated and was right to retaliate, IMO.

I share your opinion here too. What Snape was doing in many cases (from what we see in SWM) was defending himself.

IMO, Snape was one the best teachers Harry has had. He's not one to be caught up in the whole "chosen one" thing as most other teachers were. Also, he didn't treat him any better, in fact, we treated him worse; demanding more and more, which is to be expected.

Exactly. Harry is the Chosen One. He has to be on his toes, or both the Muggle world and the Wizarding world are toast. And Snape's seeing people letting Harry off the hook left and right. Not only would it likely give him James flashbacks, but he knows it's bad for Harry to be the favorite of everyone. He needs someone who will show him that life ain't no picnic. There is little room for mistakes and none for foolishness. Snape has seen people messing up and being foolish, and guess what? They're all lying in coffins now.

For all those reasons, Snape is a hero.

:tu:

Just for fun here is Dictionary.com's definition of Skulking

intr.v. skulked, skulk·ing, skulks
1 To lie in hiding, as out of cowardice or bad conscience; lurk.
2 To move about stealthily.
3 To evade work or obligation; shirk.

At Slughorn's party Snape was definately doing #3.


In regard to the tower scene. You might want to read the DIATSSISE thread. The link is below in my sig. :)

Interestingly enough he fits the other two definitions as well..

Sneering, skulking, spying, sly, spider-like, snivelling Severus Snape. Any time you have a character who is a walking alliteration, I think you have a good character.... :P

Ooh, good point. "Snivellus" does imply snivelling/tears and mucus (yuk :lol:) so I can definitely see your theory being true there - especially if the little boy in SWM (who I think was upset/crying? My copy of the book is in another city :() was actually him.

It could also tie in somewhat with his negative reaction to Harry calling him a coward at the end of HBP. Not only had he quite patently not been a coward, but he'd also maybe had to learn from a very early age not to be so "snivelly".You mean like a cry baby because if Snape had been like that infront of James and Sirius then he would have never lived down the torment those two would have given him.

Do we know why Snape lashed out at Lily, could it have been due to a prior engagement, something Lily might have said earlier on to Snape that upset him. It seemed out of character to Lily to see Snape lash out at her like that and she seemed taken back by the remark. You know for all we know Snape might have declared his love for Lily to Lily just hours before Snapes worst memory and she turned him down for James.

As much as I am a believer in the Snape-Lily theory, I still am having a very difficult time picturing Snape actually declaring his love for Lily, especially in front of Lily.

I think that when Harry learns this revelation, he will do so in the Pensieve. I really can't picture Snape telling him the truth outright.

It seemed out of character to Lily to see Snape lash out at her like that and she seemed taken back by the remark. You know for all we know Snape might have declared his love for Lily to Lily just hours before Snapes worst memory and she turned him down for James.

It definitely seems like it was a surprise for Lily, and it's possible that Snape might have confessed that day, but we do know that James and Lily started going out rather late in their school career.

I think that when Harry learns this revelation, he will do so in the Pensieve. I really can't picture Snape telling him the truth outright.

I don't know about the pensieve (there are other ways too) but I agree that Snape would not be keen on telling Harry about his feelings for Lily.

Well I think that most of ya seem to see the whole Snivellus senario the same way I do.

I always thought that perhaps Snape was crying or upset about something on the train to Hogwarts his first year and Sirius and James saw him. Then I think at some point after that during their first year James and Sirius saw him crying again, perhaps in the bathroom, and then let him have it.

I hope JKR lets a little light on the subject. I so wish she would do a "prequel" to the series! But if she did I would have no life at all! :)

Holy Chocolate:drool: Frogs! I'm gone for ages and get a new laptop and a brand new Snape
thread!
Idon't see a young Snape crying in a bathroom maybe like Hermi he might have stayed
in a stall until the James Sirius cleared out- or they might have caught Sev in a hall or empty classroom. But I think they those guys would have liked to have as many students around to see the waterworks.
kittyboy:grumble:

It is completely possible-- in fact, probable. Did you notice how Dumbledore had a trickle on blood coming out of his mouth when Harry saw the body on the ground? How can Dumbledore have bled after being hit with an AK? So the fall might have been what really did it. If killing Dumbledore was a huge emotional thing for Snape, his curse might not have had the umph needed to really kill.
All true :tu: Blood dripping from one's lip isn't a symptom of the Killing Curse, it's a symptom of a fall. And if Dumbledore was killed by the curse he would bleed because of the fall.

Another point that I think is worth discussing: What happened to Dumbledore's wand? Snape is one of a few people that could have taken it... what do we think here?

Another point that I think is worth discussing: What happened to Dumbledore's wand? Snape is one of a few people that could have taken it... what do we think here?

Well, I just looked up what happened to Dumbledore's wand, and here's the quote:

Then, by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood... Pg. 584, US version

So the wand was lying on the grounds...We don't know if Snape hurriedly picked it up during the Flight, but I doubt it, not because Harry didn't see it, but because Snape was surrounded by Death Eaters, and if anyone noticed Snape with the wand there would be questions asked.
If he did take it, it would have been later, once the Ministry had left. That doesn't really seem right either, though. Wouldn't the Ministry have found and picked up Dumbledore's wand? Hagrid could have too.
So my opinion is that Snape could have taken it, but it's a longshot.

I hope JKR lets a little light on the subject. I so wish she would do a "prequel" to the series! But if she did I would have no life at all! :)
JKR has said we won't need a prequel, that we will have the story by the time she is done, which would seem to indicate that we'll be getting quite a bit of backstory in Book 7. :tu: According to various other interviews with her, we're also due to find out what Petunia knows and why Dumbledore was corresponding with her pre-doorstep-Harry, more about the werewolf prank, something about Snape's love life ... goodness, there's so much! :)

Welcome aboard to all the new Hero thread posters! :clap:

So the wand was lying on the grounds...We don't know if Snape hurriedly picked it up during the Flight, but I doubt it, not because Harry didn't see it, but because Snape was surrounded by Death Eaters, and if anyone noticed Snape with the wand there would be questions asked.
If he did take it, it would have been later, once the Ministry had left. That doesn't really seem right either, though. Wouldn't the Ministry have found and picked up Dumbledore's wand? Hagrid could have too.
So my opinion is that Snape could have taken it, but it's a longshot.
I don't think it would be too much trouble for Snape to bend over and pick up a small object during all that chaos without being detected, but unfortunatly there's no canon supporting it to my knowledge... :(

Hmm ... I'm starting to get a funny feeling that something's going on with Snape and Lily ...

Oh stop laughing! Really, stop laughing! I don't mean love (requited or un) or friendship or kindness or potions or any of that sappy stuff. :p Something more ... important, I guess. Not that the other stuff isn't important, but ... well, it may or may not be necessary. If we can assume for a moment it's not?

I just think there might be something else, something I can't quite put my finger on yet. Something about the deliberateness of Lily's sacrifice and Snape's taking the Unbreakable Vow. And maybe that Voldemort trusts Snape and was willing to let Lily live. And the significance of Harry having Lily's eyes.

I guess my question is, is there something that Snape and Lily have in common that links them independently of any relationship they may have had?

Skill in Potions? :shrug:

Skill in Potions? :shrug:

Maybe, actually. What does this say about them? About their personalities?

Just a quick thought - Snape would not have needed to even bend over to pick up Albus' wand - a non-verbal accio would have done it. But Draco was with him thru most of the 'Flight' at least until they got a distance from the castle, so very unlikely that Snape grabbed the wand. Was it really not mentioned in the funeral scene? I suppose I've just always thought he was buried with it.

In regards to Snape/Lily and Voldy giving her a choice - I've begun to suspect that it will turn out that Voldy held Lily's safety over Snape's head once he did not show immediate results of being hired. A kind of mirror to Voldy's threats to Draco for HIS first task and non-results.

So, I think it will turn out that Voldy offered her the chance to live mostly because he wanted to continue using her as a threat over Snape's head. I think there are plenty of indications that by the time of the Potters' deaths Voldy was close to figuring out that Snape was spying for Albus - explains why he did not trust Snape in bk1 - because he was already suspicious from before his vaporizing.

And I think it would be horribly ironic if Snape ran to tell Voldy the Prophecy because he thought doing so would protect a threatened Lily, only to discover later that he had condemned her and her little family.

I think the 'heart on sleeve' speech is specifically made ABOUT occlumency because Voldy learned how Snape felt thru legilimency.

Now about Voldy occluding Harry - that one was my theory. It makes NO sense for Voldy to willingly give up such a powerful weapon against Harry and the Order. He literally has the means to drive Harry insane, setting traps to kill Order members and then switching back to 'real' visions when they try to ignore the 'dreams'. Harry would have been in St. Mungo's by now.

So, WHY stop? It is NOT because seeing into Harry's mind 'hurts' Voldy in any way - only trying to 'possess' Harry while he was thinking of Sirius did that. So, as long as he only 'sent' visions and didn't try to possess Harry, Voldy had a perfect weapon.

The only reason I can see is that Snape used that memory Harry had of Rookwood to show Voldy that Harry could 'see' things Voldy wouldn't want him to see.

I actually think this was the plan begun as soon as the occlumency lessons failed. Mostly because Albus seems aware that the classes ended and yet apparently did not attempt to make Snape start them up again. Albus' own words reveal that PART of occlumency lessons involved 'opening Harry's mind up' making him more vulnerable. I think it was pretty evident by then that Harry was NOT going to learn - even tho' Albus begged him to learn just a day or two before.

I think the contingency plan was Snape spinning some truths for Voldy to convince him that Harry had control of the visions - but Voldy would not believe it until after the disaster at the Mom. That Voldy then saw that his plans might be ruined if he never knew when Harry was listening or not.

So, WHY stop? It is NOT because seeing into Harry's mind 'hurts' Voldy in any way - only trying to 'possess' Harry while he was thinking of Sirius did that. So, as long as he only 'sent' visions and didn't try to possess Harry, Voldy had a perfect weapon.

The only reason I can see is that Snape used that memory Harry had of Rookwood to show Voldy that Harry could 'see' things Voldy wouldn't want him to see.

There can be the other more canon reason that proves that Voldemort sensed Harry whilst they both were possessing Nagini in the MoM (during the attack on Mr Weasley) ;)

I actually think this was the plan begun as soon as the occlumency lessons failed. Mostly because Albus seems aware that the classes ended and yet apparently did not attempt to make Snape start them up again. Albus' own words reveal that PART of occlumency lessons involved 'opening Harry's mind up' making him more vulnerable. I think it was pretty evident by then that Harry was NOT going to learn - even tho' Albus begged him to learn just a day or two before.

I disagree because Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would use his this ability to lure Harry and for that he was forcing Harry to take the occlumency lessons. If Dumbledore was relying on the fact that Voldemort wouldn't risk this method once more then it was a foolish thing on Dumbledore's part, but I don't see Dumbledore making such a mistake therefore it is most likely that Snape must have refused to give Harry any further occlumency lessons. ;)

While catching up on the new thread (YAY!) I had a thought regarding the Snivellus nickname. Have to jump around timelines here.......From what we have been shown of Snapes childhood, the one glimpse of Snape crying and snivelling, apparently occured at home. It also appears that his father was a nasty git. Could that name have originated from his father? Now, I'm of the belief that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts, and this could be where the Snivellus comment comes into play. We know that the Marauders called him that, but when did they start using it? Was it after Lily called him that in SWM?
I wonder if Snapes stunned reaction was because Lily used the hurtful name his father gave him as a child,that nobody else knew about? It most certainly would have been the most derogitory thing she could have said, in response to his mudblood comment.
Any thoughts?

I also wonder if Lily played a part in the werewolf prank? Not directly of course, but did Sirius have an idea that Snape liked her, implied that Lily had gone down there as well, and Snape was going down there to help her.

While catching up on the new thread (YAY!) I had a thought regarding the Snivellus nickname. Have to jump around timelines here.......From what we have been shown of Snapes childhood, the one glimpse of Snape crying and snivelling, apparently occured at home. It also appears that his father was a nasty git. Could that name have originated from his father? Now, I'm of the belief that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts, and this could be where the Snivellus comment comes into play. We know that the Marauders called him that, but when did they start using it? Was it after Lily called him that in SWM?
I wonder if Snapes stunned reaction was because Lily used the hurtful name his father gave him as a child,that nobody else knew about? It most certainly would have been the most derogitory thing she could have said, in response to his mudblood comment.
Any thoughts?

I also wonder if Lily played a part in the werewolf prank? Not directly of course, but did Sirius have an idea that Snape liked her, implied that Lily had gone down there as well, and Snape was going down there to help her.


Good thinking there, it could be true but it's pretty unlikely I guess. I don't know from where they could've known eachother because Lily was a mudblood so she probably didn't know about the Magic world before getting invited to Hogwarts.
If we assume Snape had a crush on Lily it could very well be possible that Sirius made Snape go after Lily. But my guess would be that Snape always tried to follow them to see where they where going, that Sirius got sick of that and send him to it.:D

I also wonder if Lily played a part in the werewolf prank? Not directly of course, but did Sirius have an idea that Snape liked her, implied that Lily had gone down there as well, and Snape was going down there to help her.

That is one of my favorite theories, and I'm glad you've brought it up. It explains why Snape would follow Sirius' advice. The Werewolf (I hesitate to call it something as mild as a "prank"...Might as well call it "The Werewolf Attempted Murder" and you'd be closer. :grumble: ) Thing as we have been shown has quite a few holes in it, questions we don't know the answers to:

How could Snape not have figured out Lupin was a werewolf sooner?
Was James' motive in saving Snape really what it is presented as?
Was a real Life Debt made, or did Snape just feel that it would be right to repay James?

It explains why Snape would follow Sirius' adviceExactly. If we consider their relationship, there is no reasonable reason, Snape would listen to anything that Sirius had to say afais. There had to have been some outside factor, which would cause Snape to overlook their own personal relationship, and act on anything Sirius told him. Seeing that love is the underlying theme throughout the series, it does appear to be the mitigating factor that causes most characters to act the way they do. This senario is no different, I think.

While catching up on the new thread (YAY!) I had a thought regarding the Snivellus nickname. Have to jump around timelines here.......From what we have been shown of Snapes childhood, the one glimpse of Snape crying and snivelling, apparently occured at home. It also appears that his father was a nasty git. Could that name have originated from his father? Now, I'm of the belief that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts, and this could be where the Snivellus comment comes into play. We know that the Marauders called him that, but when did they start using it? Was it after Lily called him that in SWM?
I wonder if Snapes stunned reaction was because Lily used the hurtful name his father gave him as a child,that nobody else knew about? It most certainly would have been the most derogitory thing she could have said, in response to his mudblood comment.
Any thoughts?

I also wonder if Lily played a part in the werewolf prank? Not directly of course, but did Sirius have an idea that Snape liked her, implied that Lily had gone down there as well, and Snape was going down there to help her.Interesting concept, perhaps Snape got into trouble and the Maurders saw how Snape reacted towards the teachers threatening to tell his father what was going on. Either that or the incident got around about young Severus crying during the time that man was shouting off. Perhaps his father was shouting because Snape was about to go to Hogwarts for the first time ever. You know those that mentioned the train might well be on to something there. First impression are important and perhaps young Snape left for Hogwarts on a somber note and was first scene crying on the train. This incident between the man shouting and Snape going to Hogwarts could have been close enough to have some influence on why young Severus was placed into Slytherin House (though this depends on how close the two incidents where).

*waves at Tane*
First impression are important and perhaps young Snape left for Hogwarts on a somber note and was first scene crying on the train.This is a possibility too. I was just curious as to whether the marauders gave Snape that name, or if they started calling him that after Lily used it.

In regards to Snape/Lily and Voldy giving her a choice - I've begun to suspect that it will turn out that Voldy held Lily's safety over Snape's head once he did not show immediate results of being hired. A kind of mirror to Voldy's threats to Draco for HIS first task and non-results.

So, I think it will turn out that Voldy offered her the chance to live mostly because he wanted to continue using her as a threat over Snape's head. I think there are plenty of indications that by the time of the Potters' deaths Voldy was close to figuring out that Snape was spying for Albus - explains why he did not trust Snape in bk1 - because he was already suspicious from before his vaporizing.

And I think it would be horribly ironic if Snape ran to tell Voldy the Prophecy because he thought doing so would protect a threatened Lily, only to discover later that he had condemned her and her little family.
It would be an excellent mirror with the treatment of Draco when Draco was under pressure to produce results.

I think the 'heart on sleeve' speech is specifically made ABOUT occlumency because Voldy learned how Snape felt thru legilimency.
I agree, and it could have been the impetus for Snape to become the accomplished occlumens he is today.

Now about Voldy occluding Harry - that one was my theory. It makes NO sense for Voldy to willingly give up such a powerful weapon against Harry and the Order. He literally has the means to drive Harry insane, setting traps to kill Order members and then switching back to 'real' visions when they try to ignore the 'dreams'. Harry would have been in St. Mungo's by now.

So, WHY stop? It is NOT because seeing into Harry's mind 'hurts' Voldy in any way - only trying to 'possess' Harry while he was thinking of Sirius did that. So, as long as he only 'sent' visions and didn't try to possess Harry, Voldy had a perfect weapon.

The only reason I can see is that Snape used that memory Harry had of Rookwood to show Voldy that Harry could 'see' things Voldy wouldn't want him to see.

That's a great theory. :tu:

That is one of my favorite theories, and I'm glad you've brought it up. It explains why Snape would follow Sirius' advice. The Werewolf (I hesitate to call it something as mild as a "prank"...Might as well call it "The Werewolf Attempted Murder" and you'd be closer. :grumble: ) Thing as we have been shown has quite a few holes in it, questions we don't know the answers to:

How could Snape not have figured out Lupin was a werewolf sooner?
Was James' motive in saving Snape really what it is presented as?
Was a real Life Debt made, or did Snape just feel that it would be right to repay James?

All very good questions, Iggy!
1. I think it's really a stretch to believe that someone as observant and intelligent as Snape would not have figured out Lupin's condition well before 6th year if he was remotely interested in where Lupin went every month. We see in PoA that werewolves are covered in the 3rd year curriculum. So I believe there had to be a very good reason given for Snape to have gone into that tunnel.

2. Personally I like to believe that Sirius, however flawed his character, didn't actually try to have Snape killed by his friend, for whom the consequences would have been severe or even deadly. So I definitely think there's much more to it than we've been told so far.

3. I don't think it was a life debt, especially if James was in on the set-up.

Seeing that love is the underlying theme throughout the series, it does appear to be the mitigating factor that causes most characters to act the way they do. This senario is no different, I think.
Excellent point, coco!


This is a possibility too. I was just curious as to whether the marauders gave Snape that name, or if they started calling him that after Lily used it.
It appears that Lily took her cue from the Marauders in that instance because Sirius and James both use it in SWM before she comes along.

Didn't JKR say we will learn the story behind the Werewolf incident?

I also like the idea that Snape and Lilly may have known eachother before Hogwarts. The way Bella described Spinners End as a Muggle dunghill implies that there are not any wizards in that area. Also Petunia is always trying to appear rich or well off. If she and Lilly had grown up in a place like Spinners End, a realtivly poor mill town, then that might explain why she would want to apear wealthy. She also mentions that "awful boy" that came to their house. Now if that were James or Snape why would any wizard want to be in a muggle area or come to a muggle house? Obviously if it were James then he was there trying to court Lilly but still seems odd. I have also thought that Lilly might have been the "girl that was laughing while a scrawny boy tried to ride a bucking broomstick"

I still think Petunia will shed much light on the Snape Lilly back story. Either for Snape the Hero or against.

Well, I was thinking a little more about what I suspect Snape and Lily have in common ...

It's a power, a lot like Legilimency, though I hesitate to call it that because it's not as simple as reading minds, not nearly as simple. Well, it might be Legilimency actually, I'm not sure how Jo intends to work it, but I think it's more like an underlying power, a special type of magical sight, that enables one to perform Legilimency.

Dumbledore has this power, Voldemort has this power, and Snape has this power. It's why they both trust Snape, because he's the only other person (alive) who does, the only one who can operate on their level, the closest thing to an equal either of them has except each other.

Dumbledore (and I) believe one simply cannot have this power and be bad, unless one is Voldemort. In other words, unless one is a cold-blooded psychopath who has never known anything even remotely resembling love, it would be literally impossible to have this power and be evil. Voldemort, of course, underestimates love and sees no reason why someone who realizes this power has to fall on the good side and can't want the same things he does. Which is how Snape tricks him.

Anyway, James certainly never had this power, Harry doesn't yet, but I think Lily did. And that's why it's important that Harry has "Lily's eyes." And why Voldemort might have been willing to spare her. And why Dumbledore couldn't have told Harry why he trusts Snape, even if he'd wanted to (Harry would never have believed him unless he, Harry, had achieved the power himself). And why Harry couldn't have learned Occlumency in the fifth book. And, well, a lot of other things that fall into place, I think ...

Is this making any sense yet? I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm not sure how to say it without giving too much away about the last book ... assuming I'm right of course ... but I think I am. :shrug:

Capella - you might be right in some respects, however IF so, then it must be something slightly different that 'normal' Legilimency. After all, we do know that, at the very least, Bella is a legilimens as well> She had to be to teach Draco Occlumency.

And then we also know that Slughorn is an Occlumens (but no mention that he is a Legilimens, nor indications that he ever legilimens a character - so it seems possible to be one and not the other). But that would tend to imply that some Legilimens was the one to teach him Occlumency.

But he is probably over 100 (based on physical descriptions of current self and self in memory), so whomever taught him might be dead by now (or there's even the possibility that it was Albus who taught him?)

Then there's the question hanging about Remus - and the suspicion that he was learning Occlumency at around the time Harry was (prep for his spy mission). And whether he was just observant or a Legilimens in PoA. I tend to think 'observant' because I find it difficult to believe Albus would have Snape teach Harry if Remus could do it. But perhaps he has enough talent NOW to help Harry learn to hide his non-verbals at least?

Have you ever heard why I think JKR makes the 'bat' references about Snape? I think Snape (whom we know 'fiddles' with improvements to spells and potions) has figured out a way to send out little Legilimency 'bursts' - similar to bats sending sonar. They can see without it, but are much more effective 'catching prey' with the sonar bursts. I think Snape does something similar with Legilimency. I think he uses it to kind of 'scan' an area - picking up on general emotions without resorting to looking for actual memories. It's kind of the alternate idea to his figuring out how to lie to Voldy, by apparently concentrating on purposely showing him certain memories that give the appearance that the lie is true.

Perhaps, some of this inventive use of Legilimency might work in your theory?

-----

Another thought/suggestion - perhaps it ties in with the added speech for Remus in MoviePoA? Where Lily could always see the 'good' in anyone? I don't tend to think it was really some 'super-power' idea (mostly because I like the idea of Harry as a very normal 'everyman' kid), but I can see that clues might be left to leave this as possible. IF so, then your suggestion kind of sounds like having the ability to actually 'see' the goodness in people instead of needing to just go on trust? And I can see how that might be useful to Voldy - would help separate out the new DEs who balk over what they are asked to do (Draco, Regulus?)

As much as I am a believer in the Snape-Lily theory, I still am having a very difficult time picturing Snape actually declaring his love for Lily, especially in front of Lily.

I think that when Harry learns this revelation, he will do so in the Pensieve. I really can't picture Snape telling him the truth outright.I have always pictured Snape revealing his love for Lily to Harry in an outburst. Harry has the ability to push Snape's buttons better than anyone else. Harry also has Lily's eyes and is intimately tied with Lily's death. I think it likely that these factors will lead to Snape revealing himself to Harry due to the pain of Harry's accusations. Snape's reaction to Harry having called him a coward for having killed Dumbledore could be foreshadowing of this--to me, it has always seemed that Snape almost revealed his true feelings about having killed Dumbledore to Harry:

“Kill me, then,” panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. “Kill me like you killed him, you coward –“

“DON’T –“ screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them, “- CALL ME COWARD!”

The pause created by JKR's decision to place the description of Snape in pain in the middle of his outburst suggests to me that Snape may have been about to say something else.
I disagree because Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would use his this ability to lure Harry and for that he was forcing Harry to take the occlumency lessons. If Dumbledore was relying on the fact that Voldemort wouldn't risk this method once more then it was a foolish thing on Dumbledore's part, but I don't see Dumbledore making such a mistake therefore it is most likely that Snape must have refused to give Harry any further occlumency lessons. ;)If Dumbledore realized that Harry just was not suited to learning Occlumency (as JKR has said Harry is not), then it would have been a waste of time for Snape to continue teaching Harry and make it more likely that Snape's position with Voldemort would be compromised with each lesson. Strategically, this doesn't make sense, even if Voldemort could (and did) use their connection against Harry.

While I do think that Snape refused to continue teaching Harry Occlumency, I think Dumbledore knew about it and I think that Dumbledore could have convinced Snape to continue the Occlumency lessons, if he'd thought they were worthwhile.
While catching up on the new thread (YAY!) I had a thought regarding the Snivellus nickname. Have to jump around timelines here.......From what we have been shown of Snapes childhood, the one glimpse of Snape crying and snivelling, apparently occured at home. It also appears that his father was a nasty git. Could that name have originated from his father? Now, I'm of the belief that Snape and Lily knew each other before Hogwarts, and this could be where the Snivellus comment comes into play. We know that the Marauders called him that, but when did they start using it? Was it after Lily called him that in SWM?
I wonder if Snapes stunned reaction was because Lily used the hurtful name his father gave him as a child,that nobody else knew about? It most certainly would have been the most derogitory thing she could have said, in response to his mudblood comment.It's certainly possible that the Snivellus nickname was given to him by his father, but the Marauders didn't learn it from Lily during SWM:

This'll liven you up, Padfoot,' said James quietly. 'Look who it is...'

Sirius's head turned. He became very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.

'Excellent,' he said softly. 'Snivellus.'

That quote is from the beginning of SWM, of course.
Exactly. If we consider their relationship, there is no reasonable reason, Snape would listen to anything that Sirius had to say afais. There had to have been some outside factor, which would cause Snape to overlook their own personal relationship, and act on anything Sirius told him. Seeing that love is the underlying theme throughout the series, it does appear to be the mitigating factor that causes most characters to act the way they do. This senario is no different, I think.I agree. I don't know how/whether Lily was involved in the Werewolf Prank, but I think it would be out of character for Snape to have stupidly done what Sirius said, since Snape obviously isn't stupid. I believe that this Prank must have involved some trick. The only thing that makes me think it less likely that Sirius used Lily as part of the trick is that I don't think any of the Marauders or Lily would have known of Snape's feelings toward Lily.

I really like the idea of Snape revealing his feelings for Lily in an emotional outburst. I always thought that Harry would find clues of that along his journey in book 7. Maybe some subtle hints from Petunia or maybe through the pensieve. I would very much like it if Snape confirmed Harry's suspicions towards the end of the book. It would make for a very interesting and dramatic scene.

Another thought/suggestion - perhaps it ties in with the added speech for Remus in MoviePoA? Where Lily could always see the 'good' in anyone? I don't tend to think it was really some 'super-power' idea (mostly because I like the idea of Harry as a very normal 'everyman' kid), but I can see that clues might be left to leave this as possible.
I agree. I tend to believe that, considering the importance that has been placed on love, the major points in Book 7 will be on a very humanistic level.

I agree. I don't know how/whether Lily was involved in the Werewolf Prank, but I think it would be out of character for Snape to have stupidly done what Sirius said, since Snape obviously isn't stupid. I believe that this Prank must have involved some trick. The only thing that makes me think it less likely that Sirius used Lily as part of the trick is that I don't think any of the Marauders or Lily would have known of Snape's feelings toward Lily.
Though if Snape and Lily were hanging out as friends in 6th year, practicing potions together or anything along those lines, even in a lowkey manner (as with Hermione and Viktor when no one seemed to know they were spending time together), the Marauders would have known about it because of the map. That could have given them a tip that Snape might be vulnerable when it came to Lily.

I really like the idea of Snape revealing his feelings for Lily in an emotional outburst. I always thought that Harry would find clues of that along his journey in book 7. Maybe some subtle hints from Petunia or maybe through the pensieve. I would very much like it if Snape confirmed Harry's suspicions towards the end of the book. It would make for a very interesting and dramatic scene.
Petunia's "awful boy" comment makes me very suspicious that she may be the one to initially mention Snape's connection to Lily. But I do certainly hope that after Harry has uncovered some information on his own, that it comes up between he and Snape.

Yes I think Petunia knows an awful lot that she isn't saying. Considering Harry always starts out at Privet Drive this is where it may first come up. Petunia may let something slip sorta like the way she did with the dementors in OOTP. I definitely want to hear Snape talk to Harry about if there was a connection between him and Lily.

Another thought/suggestion - perhaps it ties in with the added speech for Remus in MoviePoA? Where Lily could always see the 'good' in anyone?

A very, very closely related concept, I think. But more sophisticated, and one that can be attributed to Professor Snape (without me collapsing in fits of giggles :lol:) and Lord Voldemort as well.

I don't tend to think it was really some 'super-power' idea (mostly because I like the idea of Harry as a very normal 'everyman' kid)

I think you're dead-on. :D It's very evasive of me to refer to this as a power, though if you don't mind, I think I'll keep doing it.

Except maybe for the Muggles, everyone could in theory come into this power at some point. They could, but they don't. And that, I believe, is what makes Dumbledore and Voldemort so powerful.

That Lily achieved it is, I suspect, what gave her the unique opportunity to make a sacrifice that was different from James's. That Snape achieved it is, I'm sure, what gives him the unique opportunity to be an effective double agent. (And leaves me, with no ironclad proof, every bit as sure as Dumbledore he was on Dumbledore's side.)

I imagine Dumbledore and Snape have been playing good cop/bad cop all along to get Harry to that point, the point where he has enough experience to make the final leap himself. As we see in the third task in GoF, anyone who purposely removes too many obstacles from Harry's path is no friend of his.

Capella - you might be right in some respects, however IF so, then it must be something slightly different that 'normal' Legilimency. After all, we do know that, at the very least, Bella is a legilimens as well> She had to be to teach Draco Occlumency.

And then we also know that Slughorn is an Occlumens (but no mention that he is a Legilimens, nor indications that he ever legilimens a character - so it seems possible to be one and not the other). But that would tend to imply that some Legilimens was the one to teach him Occlumency.

Hmm, yes ... there's no way Bella or Sluggie would have this power. Though I suppose it isn't necessary for Occlumency, only Legilimency.

And now you mention it, I have a sneaking suspicion Harry wasn't learning what he thought he was learning in those Occlumency lessons. He was learning the same thing we, the readers, were learning. Because what Dumbledore really wanted him to do was Legilimency, but that was asking too much of poor Professor Snape, and Harry simply wasn't ready. Instead of prematurely trying to cut himself off, Dumbledore should simply have tried to teach Harry Occlumency himself.

Another thought/suggestion - perhaps it ties in with the added speech for Remus in MoviePoA? Where Lily could always see the 'good' in anyone?
Meaning she saw the good in Snape?

It's also interesting to note that Snape is the exactly opposite. He doesn't see the good in people at all.

It's also interesting to note that Snape is the exactly opposite. He doesn't see the good in people at all.

I don't think Snape doesn't see the good in people-- just that he's overly critical.
I mean, he did see the good in Dumbledore (Snape worked for him and protected his students from danger), and he saw the good in Narcissa (her love for her son) when he made the vow. :huh:

I don't think Snape doesn't see the good in people-- just that he's overly critical.
I mean, he did see the good in Dumbledore (Snape worked for him and protected his students from danger), and he saw the good in Narcissa (her love for her son) when he made the vow. :huh:


I agree. I think that Snape just chooses not to see the good in Harry. I think this is for obvious reasons. Snape can't become emotionally attached to Harry because it could jeopardize everything Snape has been working for as a spy. It also may be to painful for Snape to admit that Harry is like his mother.

Oh, I think Snape sees good in Harry. At least as a young 'un.

My take on it is this: When Harry came to Hogwarts, Snape was telling himself "The kid can't be that bad. He may be Spawn of Potter, but he's Lily's child too. He might be more like her..."
After the first Potions class, he is disappointed, but he keeps looking for Lily...not much luck, as he isn't around Harry enough to notice the boy's good heart. After a couple years of Harry becoming more and more James-like, Snape's like "Forget it. Harry Potter is James Jr., and I'm just going to have to grit my teeth and try to teach him anyway."

Oh, I think Snape sees good in Harry. At least as a young 'un.

My take on it is this: When Harry came to Hogwarts, Snape was telling himself "The kid can't be that bad. He may be Spawn of Potter, but he's Lily's child too. He might be more like her..."
After the first Potions class, he is disappointed, but he keeps looking for Lily...not much luck, as he isn't around Harry enough to notice the boy's good heart. After a couple years of Harry becoming more and more James-like, Snape's like "Forget it. Harry Potter is James Jr., and I'm just going to have to grit my teeth and try to teach him anyway."

I have always gotten the sense that Snape is very afraid for Harry to become like James. I like the idea that Snape is looking for Lily in Harry. In the first potions class he asks Harry extremely difficult questions about potions. At the time I didn't understand until HBP came along and we found out that Lily was a natural at potions. And perhaps a lot of the problems are as Remus tells Harry in HBP that he has inherited a prejudice from James and Sirius. In return I am sure Snape gets the sense that Harry dislikes him,making it very difficult for them to get along.

I think that Snape fostered a relationship of mutual hatred with Harry purposely, that it was a preconceived plan. We see Dumbledore saying in OotP that he himself had a preconceived plan to keep his distance from Harry, to not care too much, and that he failed. I love this passage:


"Do you see, Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now? I had fallen into the trap I had foreseen, that I had told myself I could avoid, that I must avoid."
"I don't --"
"I cared about you too much," said Dumbledore simply. "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act."

So I think Snape's relationship with Harry has been exactly as Snape felt it had to be for the safety of them both. I'm sure it helped considerably that Harry showed up to Hogwarts looking just like James had. :lol:

Wow I'm gone a couple days and you guys are already four pages into a nice new shiny Snape thread! :clap:

RE: Snivellus. Severus comes across to me throughout the books as a very emotional sort of person who just keeps those emotions squashed. I don't think people are born repressive, something happens that makes them become that way. I think Severus was probably very sensitive as a child and maybe not able to handle teasing very well. I can see him as a crybaby his first couple years at Hogwarts.

RE: Snape hating Harry. I think the pain of remembering Lily and the anger at remembering James may have a lot to do with Severus' hate for Harry, but I've always wondered if he's not jealous of him for the attention he gets from people in general and Dumbledore in particular even before he ever did anything noteworthy.

Great passage Hagatha. Also I suppose we can take Snape's heart's on sleeve speech to not only be in relation to Lily but maybe Harry as well. If circumstances were different perhaps Snape would be different. Maybe this is why he is not a very happy person. Remember Harry thinks of the HBP as a friend. Is that what the real Snape is like? Maybe this is all an act. Snape tells Malfoy in HBP that he wouldn't have gotten where he was if he didn't know how to act.

I don't think Snape doesn't see the good in people-- just that he's overly critical.
I mean, he did see the good in Dumbledore (Snape worked for him and protected his students from danger), and he saw the good in Narcissa (her love for her son) when he made the vow. :huh:

I don't think Snape ever separated Harry from James just as Sirius Black never really did. Hence I don't think he saw much good in Harry at all.

Black and Snape, more than James and Snape are two sides of a similar coin, both having the ability to be decent but their character flaws keep getting the way.
I think DD and Snape had a fairly deep understanding of each other but Narcissia...
I honestly think Snape took the Vow to shut her up as much as anything. I mean really...here's Snape, he knows Pettigrew's tendency to "rat" people out (pun absolutely
intended) and then here's the woman going on and on with her "plan" to basically
put one over on the Dark Lord..something I'm sure Peter would have no trouble running to said Dark Lord with if he knew about it.
Yeh, Bella can't be trusted either but she does seem to at least like her sister and her
nephew so maybe just this once, she could be . Peter....he's sell those guys in a heartbeat. So Snape does his Vow on the hope that a) Cissy with now settle down
and not be a risk to him and b) Draco doesn't get an opportunity to care out any plan
Sadly Snape lost out on B.
As to Lupin's comments about Lily in moviePOA.....he could have been describing himself as much as anyone. His character does have an underlying thread of self-loathing (not surprising considering how his society treats people with his condition)
And no I don't think Lily loved Lupin...it's entirely possible to see good in someone without falling for them.

I think that Snape had compassion for Narcissa in Spinner's End. I think that it was obvious when she was crying. I do think that there was a lot of pressure for Snape to go along with the vow though, simply to keep suspicion off of him.

Great passage Hagatha. Also I suppose we can take Snape's heart's on sleeve speech to not only be in relation to Lily but maybe Harry as well. If circumstances were different perhaps Snape would be different. Maybe this is why he is not a very happy person. Remember Harry thinks of the HBP as a friend. Is that what the real Snape is like? Maybe this is all an act. Snape tells Malfoy in HBP that he wouldn't have gotten where he was if he didn't know how to act.
Yes, and there are at least a couple of other quotes in HBP about Snape's acting as well. In one, Mr. Weasley voices to Harry "Has it occurred to you, Harry, that Snape was simply pretending ---?" Personally I tend to see interruptions of this nature as potential clues that there is more to the line than the expected.

And Harry also says to Ron at one point: "No one's that good an actor, not even Snape." I think Snape is an excellent actor.

I honestly think Snape took the Vow to shut her up as much as anything. I mean really...here's Snape, he knows Pettigrew's tendency to "rat" people out (pun absolutely intended) and then here's the woman going on and on with her "plan" to basically put one over on the Dark Lord..something I'm sure Peter would have no trouble running to said Dark Lord with if he knew about it.
I'm not sure Peter would have been able to tell Voldemort any specifics of the visit. I'd hazard a guess that Snape was utilizing his muffliato spell.

I agree, Alwaysme. I think Snape did feel compassion in that instance of seeing a mother before him fearful for the life of her child. And I think he would have done everything he could to protect Draco anyway, but she caught him offguard with that third clause.

I think that Snape just chooses not to see the good in Harry.

I think he chooses to behave as though he does not.

In the first potions class he asks Harry extremely difficult questions about potions. At the time I didn't understand until HBP came along and we found out that Lily was a natural at potions.

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. I suspect he was trying to sound out the sort of intelligence needed for Potions aptitude. It would have made his job a lot easier.

In return I am sure Snape gets the sense that Harry dislikes him,making it very difficult for them to get along.

I'm sure Snape could get along just fine with Harry. He is duty-bound not to. The fact that Harry looks like James, and loathes him much as James did, gives him a sort of fiendish delight in fulfilling this duty and may occasionally lead him to be a bit overzealous about it.

So I think Snape's relationship with Harry has been exactly as Snape felt it had to be for the safety of them both. I'm sure it helped considerably that Harry showed up to Hogwarts looking just like James had. :lol:

Yes, exactly. Only it wasn't so much for both their safeties as to teach Harry to deal with adversity, I think. Safety may be a secondary reason, but Snape doesn't seem like the sort of person to be too fussed about his own safety.

RE: Snivellus. Severus comes across to me throughout the books as a very emotional sort of person who just keeps those emotions squashed. I don't think people are born repressive, something happens that makes them become that way. I think Severus was probably very sensitive as a child and maybe not able to handle teasing very well. I can see him as a crybaby his first couple years at Hogwarts.

Oh dear, I can only imagine the look on his face if he heard people talking about him like this. :lol: I think you're giving James and Sirius far too much credit in assuming they'd need anything so logical as a reason to give Snape this nickname.

Maybe this is why he is not a very happy person.

Do you think Snape is an unhappy person?

I'm sure Snape could get along just fine with Harry. He is duty-bound not to. The fact that Harry looks like James, and loathes him much as James did, gives him a sort of fiendish delight in fulfilling this duty and may occasionally lead him to be a bit overzealous about it.

I really believe Snape just can't get close to Harry as you say he is duty bound. Looking like James is also a strike against Harry. I think in the end Snape seeing Lily in Harry may help their relationship to a certain extent,at least I hope so.



Do you think Snape is an unhappy person?

Absolutely. :lol: Honestly I think Snape is unhappy for several reasons one being that Lily is dead,since I strongly believe he loved her. Two being that he is in a predicament having to spy and keep the company of Voldemort,which I am sure Snape wants revenge on. Three I am sure it was no easy task for Snape to kill the one person that trusted him and cared for him. I have even wondered if Snape likes teaching it seems obvious that he doesn't. With the healing training that he showed in HBP,I have wondered if he wanted to be a healer.

I think Snape is an excellent actor.

He'd have to be. Voldemort isn't stupid (at least not academically *sneer*) so it'll take hard work to fool him. And since Snape's still alive, I'd say he's a darn good actor.


I agree, Alwaysme. I think Snape did feel compassion in that instance of seeing a mother before him fearful for the life of her child. And I think he would have done everything he could to protect Draco anyway, but she caught him offguard with that third clause.

I agree as well. I just want to add that I believe he'd have felt compassion had any mother come to him.


Do you think Snape is an unhappy person?

No, he's frolicking through a field of daisies crooning "Lightning Strikes". :p [/sarcasm]

He'd have to be. Voldemort isn't stupid (at least not academically *sneer*) so it'll take hard work to fool him. And since Snape's still alive, I'd say he's a darn good actor.

Ooooh, can we talk about how he acts around Voldemort?? :drool:

No, he's frolicking through a field of daisies crooning "Lightning Strikes". :p [/sarcasm]

:lol: That's just it, I think he's a dry and sarcastic sort of personality, but not deeply unhappy, at least not in the normal course of things.

Oh dear, I can only imagine the look on his face if he heard people talking about him like this. :lol: I think you're giving James and Sirius far too much credit in assuming they'd need anything so logical as a reason to give Snape this nickname.The question goes beyond just James and Sirius, though, to why JKR chose the name "Snivellus" for the Marauders and Lily to insult Snape. I doubt she'd have pulled a name randomly out of thin air, but chosen something that conveys what she wants to convey about their characters.

The question goes beyond just James and Sirius, though, to why JKR chose the name "Snivellus" for the Marauders and Lily to insult Snape. I doubt she'd have pulled a name randomly out of thin air, but chosen something that conveys what she wants to convey about their characters.I agree completely. From what we have been shown of adult Snape, I honestly couldn't attatch the name 'snivellus' to any of his character traits. This must mean that there are aspects of his personality, and persona we haven't been shown yet. The reasons this name was chosen, I think are going to show a complete 180 to the Snape we know, and the affects of it are the cause for his nasty demeanor as we see it now. I really believe Lily is going to have a role to play in the senario when it is finally explained.

Ooooh, can we talk about how he acts around Voldemort?? :drool:


Sure. I personally haven't yet formed much of an opinion on that yet. I'm still looking at possible explanations, and I'd love to hear some.

I'm going to submit an alternate reason for the nickname Snivellus - I'm betting that instead of 'crybaby', it will turn out to have originally started as 'snivelling coward'. Sirius (as would most Gryffindors) seems to place a VERY high value on Bravery. There's just something he seems to really treat with distaste about his use of 'Coward' in regards to Regulus. And Bella's complaint is very similar about Snape's avoiding the risky raids.

Then we still have the possibility that Sirius' Lapdog comment was about Lucius as a 'protector' and the question of whether Snape hung with the older 'gang' of Slytherins when he was just a firstie (and why?) - I still think that had much less to do with friendship and more to do with 'servant's work' - perhaps for protection?

And IF he was abused (even verbally as opposed to physically) at home, then I think he would have had a tougher skin than to cry in public - even at 11. So, IF it was crying, I think it was an unusual event (death of a parent?)

And a past history of abuse would teach him to 'please' those whom he thought would have power over him. Like older Slytherins - especially the purebloods - especially if they were the prefects (which is totally speculative, but Draco was, so I'd bet his dad was too)? Get their protection and the younger Slyths would leave him alone.

And there is just something about Snivellus that sounds 'toadying' - like a good name for Peter.

I think that Snape had compassion for Narcissa in Spinner's End. I think that it was obvious when she was crying. I do think that there was a lot of pressure for Snape to go along with the vow though, simply to keep suspicion off of him.
Yeah, we can't forget about that. Bella was suspicious even before they arrived, refusing to take the Vow would have just put her other the top (if she wasn't already there). Snape knew Bella would report her feelings back to Voldemort, and he wouldn't want that happening even if he was sure of himself, am I right?

I don't know if we can assume that Snape had compassion and understanding for Narcissa because of all the "fog" surrounding that chapter. We're not sure for whom Severus is working for at the time, what his plans are or what he knows and doesn't know. There are many theories detailing what exactly is going on during Spinners End, but we can't be sure. For all we know Snape was acting for Narcissa and only took the Vow to save himself, or for Dumbledore, or for Draco. You see, so much fog!

I agree that Snape is general hard on people and doesn't appear to be very understanding from the outside but is deep down. I also agree that he's hard on Harry because he doesn't want him to become James :D I'm just doing a whole lot of agreeing

I don't know if we can assume that Snape had compassion and understanding for Narcissa because of all the "fog" surrounding that chapter. We're not sure for whom Severus is working for at the time, what his plans are or what he knows and doesn't know. There are many theories detailing what exactly is going on during Spinners End, but we can't be sure. For all we know Snape was acting for Narcissa and only took the Vow to save himself, or for Dumbledore, or for Draco. You see, so much fog!I don't see how Dumbledore ever would have benefited from Snape having taken the Vow, especially since it wasn't something Voldemort asked him to do, but Narcissa. Approaching this from the standpoint that Snape is wholly working for Dumbledore (as this thread demands and as I believe), I think Snape agreed to the Vow out of empathy for Narcissa and a desire to help Draco. I really don't see how, if Snape was trying to save himself, he could have done so by taking the Vow--after all, if he broke it, even unintentionally, it would mean his death. Also, Narcissa was asking for something in defiance of Voldemort, which was a dangerous game. Narcissa really sprung the third part of the Vow, to carry out Draco's task, on Snape after he had already agreed to the Vow and they had begun taking it. Prior to that, I'm sure he felt that there wasn't any risk to the Order and that he was only risking his own life, if he couldn't protect Draco. However, since he began to take the Vow, he was cornered and couldn't back out without it appearing too suspicious and it likely improved his position within the Death Eaters, as I'm sure he would have calculated at the moment his hand twitched. Even Bellatrix was silenced in amazement that Snape took the Vow to ensure Draco's task would be completed. If she was one of Snape's harshest critics within the Death Eaters, Snape agreeing to the Vow would have made her more ready to accept that he was really on their side, especially since Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore, which she obviously knew. When Snape actually did carry out the task, his loyalty to Voldemort would have been cemented within the minds of the Death Eaters. I would say that the Death Eaters on the tower knew that Snape had taken a Vow to carry out Draco's task, given the way they react to his arrival on the tower.

I believe the name "Snivellus" was given to Snape for crying at some point in the past. I've had a theory for many months/years? that the characters who have deep enough feelings so they can still weep are not beyond redemption - and JKR showed us Draco crying, as well as Narcissa. Other characters are shown shedding tears to portray their emotional nature - everyone from Hagrid to Dumbledore, and even the House Elves, Winky and Kreacher, who cry for their lost families.

Also, on other threads in the past, we've talked about the irony that the name Sirius chooses as his "code name" for Harry is "Snuffles," which seems to be synonymous with "Snivels." Both words mean about the same thing, actually:

snivel
O.E. *snyflan "to run at the nose" (cf. snyflung "running of the nose"), related to snofl "nasal mucus." Meaning "to be in an (affected) tearful state" is from 1690. Snivelling "mean-spirited, weak" is recorded from 1647; Melville coined snivelization (1849).

snuff (v.2)
"draw in through the nose," 1527, from Du. or Flem. snuffen "to sniff, snuff," related to Du. snuiven "to sniff," from P.Gmc. *snuf- (cf. M.H.G. snupfe, Ger. Schnupfen "head-cold"), imitative of the sound of drawing air through the nose.

And there is just something about Snivellus that sounds 'toadying' - like a good name for Peter.

Indeed - that's quite ironic that the boys gave their worst enemy a nickname that would also seem to fit one in their inner circle - Peter with his ratty nose and watery eyes. :)
I don't know if we can assume that Snape had compassion and understanding for Narcissa because of all the "fog" surrounding that chapter. We're not sure for whom Severus is working for at the time, what his plans are or what he knows and doesn't know. There are many theories detailing what exactly is going on during Spinners End, but we can't be sure. For all we know Snape was acting for Narcissa and only took the Vow to save himself, or for Dumbledore, or for Draco. You see, so much fog!
To me, the point of "Spinner's End" as a chapter is that it is foggy outdoors, but for once, clear indoors - there is an objective third person point of view, as though we are seeing it in the Pensieve.

I believe there are a few times when Snape is "acting" towards Narcissa - as when he is trying to get her to tell him what the top secret plan for Draco is supposed to be. I don't believe he knows and he's trying to draw her out.

But his heart seems to be in the right place - she begs for help and he shows her alot more compassion than her own sister, Bellatrix. I don't think it was right for Narcissa to demand the UV from Snape, so I find more fault with her than with the way Snape acted towards her - he could have been much nastier and sarcastic with her, and instead chose to be kind.

When Snape actually did carry out the task, his loyalty to Voldemort would have been cemented within the minds of the Death Eaters. I would say that the Death Eaters on the tower knew that Snape had taken a Vow to carry out Draco's task, given the way they react to his arrival on the tower.
I agree - perhaps none of them thought Snape could really go through with it?

Snivellus is probably a reference to the Draco-like tattling that Severus may have done to the marauders. To them, he would seem like a complainer and a whiner when things didn't go his way (I can particularly see "But, headmaster, it's not fair!" types of comments coming from him). I don't think he owns much cowardice (btw, I don't think it's cowardly to run from three or four adversaries who are ganging up on you--that's just smart), but I suspect Snape is something of a sore loser.

As for the vow:

1. I think Snape would have sympathy for anyone sending a son off to kill an unmatchable opponent.

2. Dumbledore would not want Draco to kill anyone, and Snape's offer to "look after" or "help" Draco in his task probably amounts to Snape trying to talk Draco out of doing something so damaging to his soul, in Snape's mind. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that evaluative concepts like "help" would be relative to what the one taking the vow considers as appropriate. He was definitely cornered by the last part of the vow.

Capella

And then we also know that Slughorn is an Occlumens (but no mention that he is a Legilimens, nor indications that he ever legilimens a character - so it seems possible to be one and not the other).

To me Legilimency is kind of a reverse to Occlumency. In one of Harry's Occlumency lessons he managed to block Snape's legilimenting (= Occlumency) and to go further breaking into Snape's memories (= Legilimency).

I don't see how Dumbledore ever would have benefited from Snape having taken the Vow, especially since it wasn't something Voldemort asked him to do, but Narcissa. Approaching this from the standpoint that Snape is wholly working for Dumbledore (as this thread demands and as I believe), I think Snape agreed to the Vow out of empathy for Narcissa and a desire to help Draco. I really don't see how, if Snape was trying to save himself, he could have done so by taking the Vow--after all, if he broke it, even unintentionally, it would mean his death. Also, Narcissa was asking for something in defiance of Voldemort, which was a dangerous game. Narcissa really sprung the third part of the Vow, to carry out Draco's task, on Snape after he had already agreed to the Vow and they had begun taking it. Prior to that, I'm sure he felt that there wasn't any risk to the Order and that he was only risking his own life, if he couldn't protect Draco. However, since he began to take the Vow, he was cornered and couldn't back out without it appearing too suspicious and it likely improved his position within the Death Eaters, as I'm sure he would have calculated at the moment his hand twitched. Even Bellatrix was silenced in amazement that Snape took the Vow to ensure Draco's task would be completed. If she was one of Snape's harshest critics within the Death Eaters, Snape agreeing to the Vow would have made her more ready to accept that he was really on their side, especially since Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore, which she obviously knew. When Snape actually did carry out the task, his loyalty to Voldemort would have been cemented within the minds of the Death Eaters. I would say that the Death Eaters on the tower knew that Snape had taken a Vow to carry out Draco's task, given the way they react to his arrival on the tower.

I agree that Snape may have been backed into a corner with the Vow, but I still think he and DD already had a plan for him to kill DD whenever it became necessary, before Narcissa turned up at Spinner's End. It seems that DD already had the plan to make Snape DADA teacher before the Spinner's End encounter (I think he tells Harry that he's already tried to persuade Slughorn before he takes Harry with hm as persuasion leverage), which implies he already knew Snape would be leaving before the end of the year. I even wonder if it's killing DD that DD is referring to when he asks Snape at the end of GoF if he is ready to do what they'd planned.

I don't like the thought of Snape being forced into making a rash Vow which ends in his killing DD because it just becomes another instance of Snape messing up, like his catastrophic reporting of the prophecy to Voldemort. I want to feel he's earnt from his mistakes and moved on.

I also think that DD (the only person that Voldy fears and the greatest living wizard) having to die by default is a bit of a lame strategic choice, both for JKR and for the Order leadership. I much prefer an idea of DD wanting to die by Snape's hand in order to effect some deep, impenetrable, sacrificial magic, which will strongly help the Order and Harry, rather than a bad chocie he is forced into as a result of a mistake by Snape.

To me Legilimency is kind of a reverse to Occlumency. In one of Harry's Occlumency lessons he managed to block Snape's legilimenting (= Occlumency) and to go further breaking into Snape's memories (= Legilimency).I don't think that Harry actually performed Legilemency on Snape, though. I think that the charm he used (Protego, I believe) reversed the Legilimency that Snape was performing on to Snape himself, but since Harry and Snape's minds were already connected, Harry was able to see Snape's memories.
I believe the name "Snivellus" was given to Snape for crying at some point in the past. I've had a theory for many months/years? that the characters who have deep enough feelings so they can still weep are not beyond redemption - and JKR showed us Draco crying, as well as Narcissa. Other characters are shown shedding tears to portray their emotional nature - everyone from Hagrid to Dumbledore, and even the House Elves, Winky and Kreacher, who cry for their lost families.There's a difference between being redeemed and being redeemable, though. Of course, I believe that Snape has already been redeemed at this point--to me, once he turned from Voldemort and joined Dumbledore, he was redeemed.
To me, the point of "Spinner's End" as a chapter is that it is foggy outdoors, but for once, clear indoors - there is an objective third person point of view, as though we are seeing it in the Pensieve.

I believe there are a few times when Snape is "acting" towards Narcissa - as when he is trying to get her to tell him what the top secret plan for Draco is supposed to be. I don't believe he knows and he's trying to draw her out.
Even though that scene is very objective, it's still hard to tell exactly what is going on because we don't get any inner monologue, let alone Snape's. Of course, there's no way that JKR could have written that scene from Snape's perspective and kept his ambiguity. I agree with you about Snape not knowing Draco's task, though. The thing that has always struck me about that scene is that he really only repeats back what Narcissa and Bellatrix say to him, as if he already knows it--using language and their assumptions to spin his lie. I don't think he would need to do that, if he already knew what they were talking about.
I agree that Snape may have been backed into a corner with the Vow, but I still think he and DD already had a plan for him to kill DD whenever it became necessary, before Narcissa turned up at Spinner's End. It seems that DD already had the plan to make Snape DADA teacher before the Spinner's End encounter (I think he tells Harry that he's already tried to persuade Slughorn before he takes Harry with hm as persuasion leverage), which implies he already knew Snape would be leaving before the end of the year. I even wonder if it's killing DD that DD is referring to when he asks Snape at the end of GoF if he is ready to do what they'd planned.I agree that Dumbledore already had the plan to make Snape DADA professor, which he could only be for one year, by the time Snape made the Unbreakable Vow. However, they may have hoped that Snape could go back to teaching Potions at the end of that time. I think that Dumbledore was willing to take that chance because he felt that the information they could get from Slughorn was vital and he needed Slughorn in proximity to Harry in order to get it.

Actually, I tend to think that Snape was cornered into the Vow because of the curse on the DADA position. On various threads, we have discussed how the curse might work and why this might lead to the DADA professors not being able to keep their positions longer than one year. I think that the idea of the curse bringing out the greatest weakness in the DADA professor or the curse leading to revelation of the DADA professor's darkest secret have been the mechanisms proposed: Quirrell: greatest weakness--not being able to actually defend himself against the Dark Arts/being possessed by Voldemort; darkest secret--being possessed by Voldemort Lockhart: greatest weakness--being an opportunistic liar (if he was not such a liar, he would not have been forced to approach the Chamber of Secrets with Harry); darkest secret--that he didn't really have any DADA ability (his Obliviate spell backfired when he tried to prevent that fact from being learned) Lupin: greatest weakness--wanting to be liked (this led to his guilty appearance in Snape's eyes and Snape revealing his lycanthropy); darkest secret--that he is a werewolf Fake!Moody/Crouch Jr: greatest weakness--not sure; darkest secret--he is a Death Eater and not dead Umbridge: greatest weakness--she is only powerful so long as there are others willing to do her bidding (she was brought down through "subversion" from the DA members); darkest secret--she is sadistic and will do anything to gain power for herself (it's revealed that she sent a Dementor to attack Harry and that she's willing to perform Unforgivable Curses) Snape: greatest weakness--his compassion and empathy (in this case, for Narcissa); darkest secret--that he "is" a Death Eater (unlike at the end of GoF, at the end of HBP, all of the wizarding world knows this)I'm sure some people will find it odd that I list empathy as Snape's greatest weakness. However, I'm sure that Snape himself sees it as a weakness and has not had good experiences with it--especially, if he felt personally responsible for the deaths of 2 people he loved, Lily and Dumbledore. Because of that, I think that Harry and Snape are really opposites--love/empathy/compassion is Harry's greatest strength, but Snape's greatest weakness. I believe that Snape was manipulated by love/empathy/compassion early in his life by Voldemort and again at Spinner's End by Narcissa.

Quote:

To me Legilimency is kind of a reverse to Occlumency. In one of Harry's Occlumency lessons he managed to block Snape's legilimenting (= Occlumency) and to go further breaking into Snape's memories (= Legilimency).
I don't think that Harry actually performed Legilemency on Snape, though. I think that the charm he used (Protego, I believe) reversed the Legilimency that Snape was performing on to Snape himself, but since Harry and Snape's minds were already connected, Harry was able to see Snape's memories.
Right it was a shield charm that "deflected" the Legillimency spell back onto Snape - sort of like using a mirror to "reflect" it back.

There's a difference between being redeemed and being redeemable, though. Of course, I believe that Snape has already been redeemed at this point--to me, once he turned from Voldemort and joined Dumbledore, he was redeemed.
Good point - I knew I wasn't being clear enough. I do agree that Snape has already redeemed himself through all his actions since he left Voldemort.

The fact that Snape had a nickname associated with crying seems to be a clue that Snape was a sensitive boy - not like Tom Riddle, who was said to never cry, even as a baby at the orphanage. I think JKR makes a point of writing that Tom Riddle was lacking some sort of inner sensitivity even as a child.

Narcissa isn't a good person, and everything we know about her paints a dark picture, but her love for Draco was enough to make Snape and Dumbledore want to help her. Draco cried also - he's not a monster like Voldemort, and therefore, we can have a little hope for him.

The fact that Snape had a nickname associated with crying seems to be a clue that Snape was a sensitive boy - not like Tom Riddle, who was said to never cry, even as a baby at the orphanage. I think JKR makes a point of writing that Tom Riddle was lacking some sort of inner sensitivity even as a child.Yes, I agree. JKR has carefully constructed Voldemort to be a classic sociopath. Good point about the contrast between the implication of Snape having cried quite a bit as a child and Riddle never having cried. It's funny, but Harry is never described as having cried despite his treatment with the Dursleys. Doesn't the first time we know of Harry crying or wanting to cry occur after Cedric's death in GoF?

Sure. I personally haven't yet formed much of an opinion on that yet. I'm still looking at possible explanations, and I'd love to hear some.

For me it goes back to Snape, Lily, Dumbledore, and Voldemort all seeing the world in much the same way. The way Harry will by the end of book seven (through Lily's eyes, as it were). Riddle was probably born with this ability, or picked it up at a very, very young age. Snape and Dumbledore definitely learned it, just like Harry will, and I'm not sure about Lily. She probably learned it too.

Anyway, as Voldemort despises much of humanity for its, well, humanity, I believe he has a modicum of respect for the rare people who see the world as he does. Lily would have been a worthy opponent, I suspect he would have let her go simply because it would've make his life more interesting, kept him on his toes, to have her working against him. It would amuse him to watch her try and fail. Same impulse that leads him to duel Harry at the end of GoF.

Then there's Snape. He probably sees enough of himself in Snape to believe Snape wants to be him but is too prudent to try to overthrow him at present. I bet he is extremely wary of Snape, and might well plan to kill him just to be safe, now that Snape has killed Dumbledore for him. But all Snape would have had to do before is demonstrate that he enjoys manipulating people, that he is very good at it, and that he respects no one but Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Lily.

Also, on other threads in the past, we've talked about the irony that the name Sirius chooses as his "code name" for Harry is "Snuffles," which seems to be synonymous with "Snivels." Both words mean about the same thing, actually:

snivel
O.E. *snyflan "to run at the nose" (cf. snyflung "running of the nose"), related to snofl "nasal mucus." Meaning "to be in an (affected) tearful state" is from 1690. Snivelling "mean-spirited, weak" is recorded from 1647; Melville coined snivelization (1849).

snuff (v.2)
"draw in through the nose," 1527, from Du. or Flem. snuffen "to sniff, snuff," related to Du. snuiven "to sniff," from P.Gmc. *snuf- (cf. M.H.G. snupfe, Ger. Schnupfen "head-cold"), imitative of the sound of drawing air through the nose.

Actually one is the inverse of the other. To snivel is to let it out and to snuffle is to keep it in. However, the underlying suggestion is that Snape and Sirius are both bitter and suffering, but that they deal with it in different ways. Perhaps Sirius's way of dealing is more seemly or socially accepted(?). Snape takes out his negativity on others while Sirius lets it eat away at himself, maybe?

I'm not sure whether this belongs in the Sirius thread or the Hero thread, but did anyone else notice how in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA, Sirius talks to Snape by his first name, while pleading with him not to give him to the Dementors? This seemed very unusual to me...

Yes, I agree. JKR has carefully constructed Voldemort to be a classic sociopath. Good point about the contrast between the implication of Snape having cried quite a bit as a child and Riddle never having cried. It's funny, but Harry is never described as having cried despite his treatment with the Dursleys. Doesn't the first time we know of Harry crying or wanting to cry occur after Cedric's death in GoF?
At the end of SS/PS, Chapter 17, Dumbledore stares out the window while Harry dries his eyes on the sheet of his hospital bed. As you say, Harry cries after returning with Cedric, but it doesn't say that outright - only that Dumbledore's face as Harry looked at him was "blurred and misted." Then in GoF, Chapter 36, Mrs. Weasley is hugging him after the third task as a "howl of misery (fought) to get out of him." Finally, Harry's face is "wet" after he sits in the bushes outside on the night of the last banquet in OotP - just before he sees Luna in the hallway.

Actually one is the inverse of the other. To snivel is to let it out and to snuffle is to keep it in. However, the underlying suggestion is that Snape and Sirius are both bitter and suffering, but that they deal with it in different ways. Perhaps Sirius's way of dealing is more seemly or socially accepted(?). Snape takes out his negativity on others while Sirius lets it eat away at himself, maybe?
That's interesting - but I think Sirius is still letting it out on Snape at Grimmauld Place, when he calls him, ironically, "Snivellus," the good old nickname.

I do think perhaps Sirius does know how to reign in his emotions - we never see him cry, and when he sees Mrs. Weasley losing it during her boggart scene, he just stares at the floor.

I'm not sure whether this belongs in the Sirius thread or the Hero thread, but did anyone else notice how in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA, Sirius talks to Snape by his first name, while pleading with him not to give him to the Dementors? This seemed very unusual to me...
It is interesting that Sirius and Lupin both use his name there, but in OotP, Sirius merely calls him either "Snape" to Harry, or "Snivellus" to his face.

I think it probably had a lot to do with the fact that both Sirius and Remus were in a vulnerable position and looking rather guilty at the time, and probably the last thing they wanted to do was tick Severus off and push him into doing something rash.

:lol: Despite having already called him Snivellus, complaining that he should get over a schoolboy prank and admitting that 'gee, I wish it had worked' :lol: oops! that didn't work well, maybe we should try using his REAL name?

But you know, I don't think Snape really appreciated their use of his first name either - too familar

Yes. In fact, at the time, he thought them extremely dangerous people, so the use of "Severus" would only make it seem more sinister to him.

Yes, I think it would be insulting, even. Snape is not usually called by his first name. Even when he got his short-lived Order of Merlin from Fudge, Fudge still called him Snape.

I think it's part of something I was trying to say on the James thread. Wizarding 'society' seems to fall somewhere in the past with it's ways of addressing people. Long ago on DevSev here at CoS we dissected Snape's speech patterns and many of us decided that he 'remade' himself into what 'society' expected of him to 'fit-in'.

This was actually a very important subject in Britain in the 20th century with the disintegration of the upstairs/downstairs classes. Especially with people from the lower classes apeing their 'betters' to appear more acceptable.

Anyways, I see it as a very distinct differenece between Snape (the half-blood from a probable poor background) and the rich, pureblood James and Sirius who seem to reject this manner of speech in favor of the more modern (muggle?) casual way of speech (including using nicknames in front of others)

I went away for a week...and now there's a shiny new thread six pages long! :D

Ooooh, can we talk about how he acts around Voldemort?? :drool:
:drool: Sure, why not?

The conversation would be speculative, since we don't even know for sure they have ever spoken in the course of the series, let alone about what or how. Though we can certainly make guesses about when and what. In fact, I shall:

1) End of GoF, their first meeting post Godric's Hollow. I believe Snape went to Voldemort in "The Parting of the Ways". His job would have been to convince Voldemort of the same bill of goods that Snape tried to sell Bella at Spinner's End. That he stuck around Hogwarts on V's orders, and also because Dumbledore used his influence to keep Snape out of jail. I imagine Snape would have taken an approach similar to Lucius's a couple of hours earlier-that he never 'returned' to the good side, that was just the face he had to put on for Dumbledore and the Ministry to keep out of trouble.

I think he would also have tried to stress his importance as a spy by presenting as much seemingly interesting/important information as he could. Like, that the Ministry was in denial about Voldemort's return, and that Dumbledore was going to be re-forming the Order of the Phoenix.

2) I think Snape was the source of the information that Voldemort planned to steal the Prophecy. Whether he learned this from Voldemort himself or not, I’m not sure.

3) I believe Snape met Voldemort in person after the debacle for the Death Eaters in OotP, a meeting at which he was told of Draco’s orders, and in which he received the decided impression that he was going to be Voldemort’s Plan B if Draco failed (as he tells the sisters in Spinner’s End). It is my guess Voldemort did this owing to a suspicion about Snape-he wanted to see whether Snape would use the information to thwart his plan. The test appears to have shown that, instead, Snape ensured it came to fruition

I think we don’t get to see any of these (hypothetical) scenes because to see them would give too much away. I do very much hope we might get to see a scene with Snape and Voldemort in Book 7.

:lol: That's just it, I think he's a dry and sarcastic sort of personality, but not deeply unhappy, at least not in the normal course of things.

Would you, then, say you think he is happy? When I think of it, my reasons for supposing him unhappy tend to come more from the last two books, during which things for Snape (among others) are not in the normal course.

YAY, ZG IS BACK!!! *hugs zg* You were missed! *pouts*

Yes. After killing Dumbledore, I'd say that he's deeply unhappy.
But before Voldemort's rebirth, I'd say he was fine...or as fine as he could be. ;)

I think before voldy came back for sure in GOF Snape was as happy as he could be. I think both he and Dumbledore knew that Voldy would come back at some point they just didn't know when. I also think that if Snape had any real contacts, any real friends or people that he cared about, he distanced himself from them after POA becuase he knew the time was getting closer to Voldys return.

I also think that there was a time (very short time) that Snape was truly happy. Though I have no cannon to back it up, it is again one of my "feelings". :)

Any idea what time it was, gorgie? :D Or do you just have a hunch? :p

well he was happy in that very brief period in which he was getting the Order of Merlin.
For that little tiny bit of time, Snape was finally getting some recognition for the risky
things he does. Like many undercover types... public recognition doesn't come their way often but you have to think it would be appreciated when it does. And Snape appears to me to have worked very hard at pushing away
the unhappy boy he was. A public acknowledgement of something Snape had accomplished, IMO, might have helped bury that past for Severus.
And then Black flies the coop and that recognition is gone.
I agree , since the rise of LV Snape has had nothing to be happy about unless you count sending Wormtail off to do the dishes.

And gloat about his importance in the Order to Sirius, don't forget. That had to generate a bit of malicious glee. If he was truly happy for a short time, it might have been when he got in to Slytherin. There are so many parallels between Harry and Snape that this wouldn't surprise me.

What does everyone think about Snape's house and surroundings during the Spinner's End chapter? To me, they suggest he's not far distant from the boy he used to be. Bella and Narcissa are certainly taken aback by the atmosphere enveloping his house. They seem to think he chose his location (suggesting that the house isn't inherited, maybe?). Why would he choose to stay in an industrial town if he could move elsewhere? Is it an attempt at isolating himself from the wizarding community when he's away from Hogwarts? Is it the town he grew up in, do you think?

What does everyone think about Snape's house and surroundings during the Spinner's End chapter? To me, they suggest he's not far distant from the boy he used to be. Bella and Narcissa are certainly taken aback by the atmosphere enveloping his house. They seem to think he chose his location (suggesting that the house isn't inherited, maybe?). Why would he choose to stay in an industrial town if he could move elsewhere? Is it an attempt at isolating himself from the wizarding community when he's away from Hogwarts? Is it the town he grew up in, do you think?

I guess I've always thought this was where he grew up. Maybe not in that exact house but in that place. Not long ago there was a link to an article posted which made some strong arguments for Snape being from Northern England and this location certainly evokes that feeling.
The most interesting description for me was how the house didn't really look "lived in"
which it isn't for the most part. That kind of said to me that Snape perhaps sees Hogwarts as "home".
Which is how Harry feels about Hogwarts too if I recall.
Yeh I think are a lot of parallels between Snape and Harry.

Concerning the Voldemort - Snape relationship:

As zgirnius stated, we don't know when Snape and Voldemort could have met, and we don't know what they would have talked about, so this is all speculation.

Let's assume that zgirnius is correct about the times they've met. I think it's likely that everytime Snape sees Voldemort he is forced to explain himself again and again (this would be the reason he did it so well for Narcissa and Bellatrix). He tells Voldemort what he is doing at Hogwarts is useful and feeds him false (or true) information. Now, this is assuming Snape is actually on Dumbledore's side.

I'm Voldemort would ask Snape the same things Bellatrix did, and probobly wouldn't be assured by the fact that Snape is blocking off his mind. I don't think the Snape - Voldemort meetings would be very happy ones.

Also during these meetings I'm sure Voldemort would give Snape new assignments and orders, with which Snape would have to deal with without actually doing them. Does that make sense? :shrug:


What do we think about Snape and Voldemorts relationship now that Severus has killed Dumbledore without orders to do so?

I think there are two possibilties:

1. Voldemort is happy and appreciative. Snape becomes held in high regard and everything is peachy.

2. Voldemort does not take kindly to the news, either because a) he wanted to murder the Headmaster himself, b) because he needed Dumbledore to be alive, or c) becuase he wanted Draco to die trying to do the deed (or a combination of b and c). Therefore Snape is punished accordingly or his cover is blown.

I'm Voldemort would ask Snape the same things Bellatrix did, and probobly wouldn't be assured by the fact that Snape is blocking off his mind.

I think that Snape does something other than simply block his mind. I don't think Voldemort would permit any od his followers to block him out like that, regardless of how useful they are.

In GoF Snape explained to Harry that a skilled Occlumens is able to suppress those memories and feelings which contradict a lie, and so lie to the Dark Lord undetected. I am assuming Snape knows this, because he has done it. I think he leaves all his other memories and feelings there for Voldemort to see, and so Voldemort does not realize he is being blocked out at all.

I do think that Voldemort is still suspicious, either because he knows this special form of Occlumency is a theoretical possibility, or because he respects Dumbledore's skill at Legilimency enough to suspect Snape may be good enough at Occlumency to lie undetected somehow, or both. But it is one of those things he can't prove-if accused, Snape would deny doing any such thing and point out that he is giving Voldemort access to his memories.

This is why I think that the whole Dumbledore assassination and telling Snape about it (my assumption, Snape could have been bluffing) was necessary in the eyes of Voldemort. He wants to be more sure of Snape that he can be even with his amazing power of Legilimency. Hence, a test of loyalty.

I think Snape is truly on Voldemort's side I do not think he would be able to fool Voldemort but there are people who are suspicious of him such as Bella

I think Snape is truly on Voldemort's side I do not think he would be able to fool Voldemort but there are people who are suspicious of him such as Bella

This thread is for posts by people who believe Snape is one of the heroes of the series (hence its title). Based on your post, it would seem the discussion on Snape The Villain (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=95323)would suit you better. :)

snape cannot be defined as hero or villan he is merely on the side of whever is powerful so he can survive. anyway i was replying to the posts before mine not the title.

Concerning the Voldemort - Snape relationship:

As zgirnius stated, we don't know when Snape and Voldemort could have met, and we don't know what they would have talked about, so this is all speculation.



There are three confirmed meetings between Voldemort and Snape since Voldemort's return to his body:

1. Snape returned to Voldemort two hours after Voldemort's return to his body. This was on Dumbledore's orders. One of the pivotal quotes regarding Snape's loyalties, at least at the time of Voldemort's return, comes from Voldemort himself:

He had reached the largest gap of all, and he stood surveying it with his blank, red eyes, as if he could see people standing there.
"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service."

Voldemort goes on to say that this faithful servant is at Hogwarts, and was the one who fixed the Triwizard Tournament so that Harry would be brought to Voldemort. This is very clever misdirection by JKR: the reader thinks at this point that the servant is either Snape or Karkaroff, having no idea that it's Barty Crouch Jr, because up to this point we have been told that he is dead. When Voldemort referred to "re-entering his service", he was referring to the Death Eaters who did not look for him after he had been vanquished. Barty Crouch Jr, too, thought Voldemort was dead, but he never stopped supporting his cause. So the faithful servant is obviously Barty Crouch Jr, without a doubt.

The three dead Death Eaters are Evan Rosier (killed by Mad-Eye Moody), Wilkes (killed by Aurors) and Regulus Black (we all know the cause of his death). Now, here comes the real mystery. Voldemort says that one Death Eater is too cowardly to return and will pay (presumably by torture, like he did to Lucius Malfoy). He says that another he believes to have left him forever and will be killed. Shortly after Harry escapes, we learn that Karkaroff fled upon feeling the Dark Mark burn, and we learn that he was killed by Death Eaters early in HBP. So the most logical assumption is that Snape was the one who was too cowardly to return and that Karkaroff was the one who left Voldemort forever and was killed as a result. Or is it?

Snape says in Spinner's End that the reason Voldemort did not show himself to Snape while he was possessing Quirrell was because he wasn't sure if he could trust Snape. This is the only known mistrust of Snape by Voldemort that we know of. And since Voldemort's "darkest hour" was in CoS and PoA (as Vapormort) when he forced himself to live, he would have no way of knowing whose side Snape was on. Wormtail would not know, unless he stayed behind after Potions classes as Scabbers - a very unlikely thing considering Wormtail only returned to Voldemort after being unmasked by Sirius and Lupin. Back to Snape. He also says that Voldemort was initially angry at Snape's lateness, but this anger ceased when he learned Snape had 14 years worth of information on Dumbledore, and that Dumbledore had ordered Snape to rejoin the Death Eaters. So I think Voldemort was surprised to see Snape come back, and that he was initially planning to kill him. Remember, he did not know at the time that Karkaroff had betrayed him, as Karkaroff's trial came after Voldemort's downfall. So the one who was too cowardly to return was Karkaroff, and the one who Voldemort believed had left him forever, and who he was planning to kill, was Snape.

The second and perhaps third confirmed meetings must have been sometime between OOTP and HBP, and, to me, is the only unresolved mystery in regard to Snape's loyalties. Snape says his information helped Voldemort capture and kill Emmeline Vance, and helped dispose of Sirius as well. In fact, it was Kreacher's information specifically that helped kill Sirius, but I think Snape did help, if inadvertantly, goad Sirius out of Grimmauld Place, and that's what he was referring to. The only possible way I can think of to justify Snape's statement about Vance would be that he passed the information "inadvertantely", and that his information had unintended consequences, the same way I think his information about the prophecy led to Snape switching sides. Voldemort also told Snape about his plan to kill Dumbledore as well, and this was probably a private meeting, given that only Narcissa, Bellatrix, Snape, Draco and probably the Death Eaters who invaded Hogwarts knew about it.



Let's assume that zgirnius is correct about the times they've met. I think it's likely that everytime Snape sees Voldemort he is forced to explain himself again and again (this would be the reason he did it so well for Narcissa and Bellatrix). He tells Voldemort what he is doing at Hogwarts is useful and feeds him false (or true) information. Now, this is assuming Snape is actually on Dumbledore's side.

I'm Voldemort would ask Snape the same things Bellatrix did, and probobly wouldn't be assured by the fact that Snape is blocking off his mind. I don't think the Snape - Voldemort meetings would be very happy ones.



I'm going to disagree with this. According to Narcissa, Snape is Voldemort's most trusted servant, and given that Narcissa's husband is in Voldemort's inner circle AND a supposed good friend of Snape, I'd say her information is probably accurate. Also, I don't think Voldemort knows when Snape uses Occlumency against him. I think Occlumency can only be detected in certain circumstances - such as when Draco used Occlumency against Snape. Snape knew Draco was using it, not only because Draco actually told him he was, but because Draco was rather inexperienced at it. He was able to block Snape's Legilimency but unable to block the fact that he was concealing thoughts.

[/quote]



Also during these meetings I'm sure Voldemort would give Snape new assignments and orders, with which Snape would have to deal with without actually doing them. Does that make sense? :shrug:



I disagree. I don't think Voldemort would be too happy with Snape not doing work. His only known "assignments" are being a triple agent for the Death Eaters (when in fact he is a double-triple-agent for the Order) and supervising Draco's attempt to assassinate Dumbledore. If Snape is supposed to be a triple agent based in Hogwarts, there isn't that much he can do on the sly.



What do we think about Snape and Voldemorts relationship now that Severus has killed Dumbledore without orders to do so?

I think there are two possibilties:

1. Voldemort is happy and appreciative. Snape becomes held in high regard and everything is peachy.

2. Voldemort does not take kindly to the news, either because a) he wanted to murder the Headmaster himself, b) because he needed Dumbledore to be alive, or c) becuase he wanted Draco to die trying to do the deed (or a combination of b and c). Therefore Snape is punished accordingly or his cover is blown.

I think Snape was already held in high regard, and perhaps Voldemort is a little fearful now, even. Obvious logic: the only one he ever feared is now dead, and his murderer is his servant. I don't think Voldemort will be ENTIRELY pleased at the news, but would he complain about Dumbledore being dead? I doubt it.

I think it's a combination of both 1 and 2, with the exception of 2b, which makes no sense to me. His plan to kill Dumbledore via Draco was very brilliant but flawed. He wanted Draco to die so he would get revenge on Lucius, but intended Snape to do the job if Draco couldn't. Basically, Draco has been destined to become a Death Eater his whole life. So he wanted Draco to die, yet he didn't at the same time. His biggest concern was killing Dumbledore so he could kill Harry, yet he needed an appropriate way of getting revenge on Lucius for his various errors (unwittingly destroying a piece of his master's soul, not going to look for his master, failing to get the prophecy, getting everybody imprisoned and Voldemort revealed...). Snape's triple-agent cover is now blown, but it doesn't really matter because the lone reason he was a triple agent in the first place is now gone.

snape cannot be defined as hero or villan he is merely on the side of whever is powerful so he can survive. anyway i was replying to the posts before mine not the title.

If you are unsure as to which side Snape is on, then please post in the Snape The Obscure (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=95324) thread. I highly suggest you check out thread rules in the first (http://cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4197028&postcount=1) posts (http://cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=4060629&postcount=1) before actually posting in them.

2. Voldemort does not take kindly to the news, either because a) he wanted to murder the Headmaster himself, b) because he needed Dumbledore to be alive, or c) becuase he wanted Draco to die trying to do the deed (or a combination of b and c). Therefore Snape is punished accordingly or his cover is blown.

That would be the most horribly ironic thing, if his cover was blown to Voldemort because he had killed Dumbledore.
I don't think Voldy would ever assume that Severus was loyal to Dumbledore because of that though, I think it's more likely that he would decide he was looking out for his own interests above Voldemort's. After all, Voldemort doesn't seem the type to understand the nature of sacrifice very well.

[QUOTEAccording to Narcissa, Snape is Voldemort's most trusted servant, and given that Narcissa's husband is in Voldemort's inner circle AND a supposed good friend of Snape, I'd say her information is probably accurate. Also, I don't think Voldemort knows when Snape uses Occlumency against him. I think Occlumency can only be detected in certain circumstances - such as when Draco used Occlumency against Snape. Snape knew Draco was using it, not only because Draco actually told him he was, but because Draco was rather inexperienced at it. He was able to block Snape's Legilimency but unable to block the fact that he was concealing thoughts.
[/QUOTE]

I agree but Bella is also in voldemorts inner circle and she is skeptical of Snape. also Voldemort is not too happy with Lucius at the moment either. Even if the person is a skilled occlumens don't you think that Voldemort would still be able to detect it?????

So the one who was too cowardly to return was Karkaroff, and the one who Voldemort believed had left him forever, and who he was planning to kill, was Snape.I agree with your reasoning here. Additionally, Snape himself said that Voldemort thought he had left him forever while speaking to Bellatrix and Narcissa:"The Dark Lord's initial displeasure at my lateness vanished entirely, I assure you, when I explained that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore thought I was his man. Yes, the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong."I don't think JKR (or any author) would have chosen those exact words for Snape, if she didn't mean for it to indicate that Snape was the one who had left forever identified by Voldemort at the end of GoF.

Reading that passage again was interesting. It gave me the impression that Voldemort believes Snape was only acting as a "triple agent" since his return, not during VWI. Snape makes it sound like he thought up his "triple agent" status during the months leading up to Voldemort's return, as the Dark Mark was growing stronger (which is probably the true plan he discussed with Dumbledore). Snape would have to have told Voldemort that he returned on Dumbledore's orders, though--I wonder how he might have set that up? Would he have told Voldemort that he offered to act as Dumbledore's spy only after Harry returned? That story would protect him from having to admit to Voldemort that he'd told Dumbledore of the Dark Mark returning long before that night. That leads to the question, though, if Dumbledore was learning of Snape's former Death Eater status for the first time that night, why would he trust Snape--or, in other words, why would Voldemort believe that Dumbledore would trust Snape? Just trying to figure out how this lie would work...

Concerning the Voldemort - Snape relationship:


1. Voldemort is happy and appreciative. Snape becomes held in high regard and everything is peachy.

2. Voldemort does not take kindly to the news, either because a) he wanted to murder the Headmaster himself, b) because he needed Dumbledore to be alive, or c) becuase he wanted Draco to die trying to do the deed (or a combination of b and c). Therefore Snape is punished accordingly or his cover is blown.


By killing Dumbledore in the manner he had to, Snape has destroyed any further usefulness as a spy for Voldemort. He is pretty much cut off from any access to any information now and the fact DD's death came about because of a Vow made without Voldemort's consent.....no I don't think anything is peachy.

If Voldemort truly wanted to be the one kill DD, he not Greyback and Co would have used the cabinet. There's no reason LV couldn't. And if LV needed DD alive, why send Draco after him at all.
I think LV wanted DD dead, I think he wanted to punish Malfoy Sr and what better way than to order Draco to attempt a very risky attack on a very powerful wizard. I suspect LV understands sacrifice enough to know that DD would likely never harm one of his own students which in a way, gives Draco a better "shot" at DD than some random death eater. But if Draco gets killed ...well at least that punishes Lucius a little more.

As to who Voldemort trusts....I don't think he trusts anyone. I think he's good at convincing various death eaters he trusts this person or that but that doesn't mean anything.
This is one of those...look at what's done not what's said. Bella "says" Snape is the most trusted death eater.
But Voldemort sent to "help" Snape, Peter Pettigrew who's great claim to fame is that
he betrayed the Potters and spied on the Order for Voldemort. Not to mention Peter's
association with the Marauders and his willingness to just enjoy somebody else's discomfort. I don't think for a minute Pettigrew's lost any of the contempt for Snape
he demonstrated during SWM. There's nothing in canon to say Voldemort knows this history in detail but he's got know some of the basics.
So, IMO, Pettigrew is hardly the helper one would send to someone who was your "most trusted"
OTOH, if Voldemort wants to keep tabs on Snape...Pettigrew's your wizard.

I'm going to disagree with this. According to Narcissa, Snape is Voldemort's most trusted servant, and given that Narcissa's husband is in Voldemort's inner circle AND a supposed good friend of Snape, I'd say her information is probably accurate.

Narcissa's husband is not, at the time of the scene in question, in Voldemort's inner circle. He is a prisoner in Azkaban, and has so angered the Dark Lord that the latter has sent Narcissa's only son on what everyone considers an impossible mission. However, I agree Narcissa might have the connections to have some idea what is going on with the inner circle.

But I don't think she is in the business of telling the simple truth as she knows it at Spinner's End. She is coming to ask a big favor of Snape, and I think some of her remarks, such as the comment about Snape being his most trusted servant, are exaggerations, and a form of flattery.

In my view, Voldemort must wonder how the Order arrived at the Ministry at such an inopportune time. Especially since only one Order member known to him was at Hogwarts that night. Harry might forget this detail; Voldemort, I think, did not.

If Snape had not alerted the Order, he would have blown his cover for Voldemort. The Prophecy burglary wasn't screwed up because the Order showed up, it was screwed up because Lucius wasted too much time doing his "evil villain speech" to Harry in the Hall of Prophecy.

Snape would have to have told Voldemort that he returned on Dumbledore's orders, though--I wonder how he might have set that up? Would he have told Voldemort that he offered to act as Dumbledore's spy only after Harry returned? That story would protect him from having to admit to Voldemort that he'd told Dumbledore of the Dark Mark returning long before that night. That leads to the question, though, if Dumbledore was learning of Snape's former Death Eater status for the first time that night, why would he trust Snape--or, in other words, why would Voldemort believe that Dumbledore would trust Snape? Just trying to figure out how this lie would work...

Dumbledore testified, on at least two occasions, that he believed Snape had returned before Voldemort's fall. I believe that Snape and Dumbledore have to consider the possibility that this would get back to Voldemort, so the last-minute, during GoF conversion story would have no chance. I think Snape was believed by Voldemort to be a double agent in VW1, spying on Dumbledore for him, having convinced Dumbledore of his remorse. (While in reality he was a double agent for Dumbledore, having returned sincerely to the good side, without giving this fact away to Voldemort). He offered, in GoF, to become a triple agent, in the sense that he would go back and seem to spy on Voldemort for the Order while the Order believes him to be a double agent for them. (Ack, my head is spinning as I type. :D )

I think Snape's double agent status in VW1 was unknown to other Death Eaters, who believed he was a simple spy (spying on Dumbledore, without Dumbledore even knowing Snape was a Death Eater), and this is why Snape tells the story to Bella in the way that he does.

Voldemort probably favours snape at the moment because he was not part of theppl who lost his prophecy

If Snape had not alerted the Order, he would have blown his cover for Voldemort. The Prophecy burglary wasn't screwed up because the Order showed up, it was screwed up because Lucius wasted too much time doing his "evil villain speech" to Harry in the Hall of Prophecy.

The speech in question would take a matter of minutes to deliver. There were too many variables out of the control of Voldemort and Snape to time a notification to the Order to allow for a shorter speech by Lucius, but not the somehwat longer one he actually gave. Some delay was necessitated by the need to not break the Orb.

Well, my point is, Voldemort obviously knows that Snape alerted the Order. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out: Snape was the only member of the Order still at Hogwarts at the time of Harry's cryptic message. And yet, after this, he apparantly still trusted Snape enough to make him privy to his top-secret plan to assassinate Dumbledore.

probably because he figured snape still needed to keep his cover at the order they would have suspected him if he had not alerted them.

Dumbledore testified, on at least two occasions, that he believed Snape had returned before Voldemort's fall. I believe that Snape and Dumbledore have to consider the possibility that this would get back to Voldemort, so the last-minute, during GoF conversion story would have no chance. I think Snape was believed by Voldemort to be a double agent in VW1, spying on Dumbledore for him, having convinced Dumbledore of his remorse. (While in reality he was a double agent for Dumbledore, having returned sincerely to the good side, without giving this fact away to Voldemort). He offered, in GoF, to become a triple agent, in the sense that he would go back and seem to spy on Voldemort for the Order while the Order believes him to be a double agent for them. (Ack, my head is spinning as I type. :D )

I think Snape's double agent status in VW1 was unknown to other Death Eaters, who believed he was a simple spy (spying on Dumbledore, without Dumbledore even knowing Snape was a Death Eater), and this is why Snape tells the story to Bella in the way that he does.It's possible that Snape told Voldemort he sold a story of remorse to Dumbledore back in VWI. Voldemort might believe this, since he probably thinks of willingness to forgive as a weakness Dumbledore is likely to have. On the other hand, Dumbledore always saw through Voldemort, so would Voldemort find it suspicious that Snape could fool a Dumbledore who knew Snape had been a Death Eater from the beginning? It would be a different situation after 13 years of knowing Snape--Voldemort could believe that, especially since he wasn't around, Snape could have slowly gained Dumbledore's trust over time.

Exactly my point. It would look highly suspicious if Snape did not alert the Order...

Well, my point is, Voldemort obviously knows that Snape alerted the Order. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out: Snape was the only member of the Order still at Hogwarts at the time of Harry's cryptic message. And yet, after this, he apparantly still trusted Snape enough to make him privy to his top-secret plan to assassinate Dumbledore.I'm not certain that Voldemort would have thought Snape alerted the Order. Draco knew that Harry broke into Umbridge's office to communicate with someone by Floo. He could have reported that and Voldemort deduced that whoever Harry spoke to by Floo figured it out. Snape certainly didn't give Draco any reason to suspect him during that scene in Umbridge's office and no one who didn't know the name "Padfoot" or the details of their Occlumency lessons would have any reason to believe Snape had any knowledge of the plot.

Well, my point is, Voldemort obviously knows that Snape alerted the Order. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out: Snape was the only member of the Order still at Hogwarts at the time of Harry's cryptic message. And yet, after this, he apparantly still trusted Snape enough to make him privy to his top-secret plan to assassinate Dumbledore.

We clearly see the events of OotP/HBP differently. I think Voldemort did end up with a new or heightened suspicion of Snape after OotP, and deliberately leaked the top-secret plan to Snape and Snape alone in order to be sure where his loyalties lie. If the plan had somehow ended up foiled, Voldemort would have known who to blame. As it instead worked out, apparently with Snape's help, I presume he will draw the conclusion that Snape was not loyal to Dumbledore. Maybe I am over-fond of spy stories, but this is a classic sort of plot to smoke out a double agent-drop a piece of information so valuable the double agent/his control must act on it even if it jeopardizes the cover.

It's possible that Snape told Voldemort he sold a story of remorse to Dumbledore back in VWI. Voldemort might believe this, since he probably thinks of willingness to forgive as a weakness Dumbledore is likely to have. On the other hand, Dumbledore always saw through Voldemort, so would Voldemort find it suspicious that Snape could fool a Dumbledore who knew Snape had been a Death Eater from the beginning? It would be a different situation after 13 years of knowing Snape--Voldemort could believe that, especially since he wasn't around, Snape could have slowly gained Dumbledore's trust over time.

I may be overthinking this, but to me it seems that if Voldemort sent Snape to get a job at Hogwarts the summer before Harry died, he had to know that Snape would have to talk his way around the eavesdropping at the Hog's Head, and passing the prophecy along to Voldemort. Especially if the Potters had any reason to believe Voldemort was interested in them during this time. Because if Voldemort knew the Prophecy, he knew it from Snape.

We clearly see the events of OotP/HBP differently. I think Voldemort did end up with a new or heightened suspicion of Snape after OotP, and deliberately leaked the top-secret plan to Snape and Snape alone in order to be sure where his loyalties lie. If the plan had somehow ended up foiled, Voldemort would have known who to blame. As it instead worked out, apparently with Snape's help, I presume he will draw the conclusion that Snape was not loyal to Dumbledore. Maybe I am over-fond of spy stories, but this is a classic sort of plot to smoke out a double agent-drop a piece of information so valuable the double agent/his control must act on it even if it jeopardizes the cover.Usually, it's a trick, though--the information only seems worth risking the cover for, but is really worthless...What are you saying is the top-secret plan that you think only Snape knew? I'm confused.I may be overthinking this, but to me it seems that if Voldemort sent Snape to get a job at Hogwarts the summer before Harry died, he had to know that Snape would have to talk his way around the eavesdropping at the Hog's Head, and passing the prophecy along to Voldemort. Especially if the Potters had any reason to believe Voldemort was interested in them during this time. Because if Voldemort knew the Prophecy, he knew it from Snape.
That's a good point. I'll have to think about it some more. :)

Usually, it's a trick, though--the information only seems worth risking the cover for, but is really worthless...What are you saying is the top-secret plan that you think only Snape knew? I'm confused.

Sorry. Draco's assignment to kill Dumbledore. Snape claims to know what it is, and Bella is shocked by this. Bella and Cissy also know, but I think Voldemort trusts they will not leak it. Bella because she is a fanatic and is preparing Draco, so his success would be to her benefit as well, and Cissy because she wants Draco to succeed.

I think Voldemort did end up with a new or heightened suspicion of Snape after OotP, and deliberately leaked the top-secret plan to Snape and Snape alone in order to be sure where his loyalties lie. If the plan had somehow ended up foiled, Voldemort would have known who to blame. As it instead worked out, apparently with Snape's help, I presume he will draw the conclusion that Snape was not loyal to Dumbledore. Maybe I am over-fond of spy stories, but this is a classic sort of plot to smoke out a double agent-drop a piece of information so valuable the double agent/his control must act on it even if it jeopardizes the cover.

I don't know if JKR will go into this much detail in her book 7 explanation, and this might be something we are still discussing even after book7. I do , however, agree that Voldemort probably told Snape about the plan pre-spinner's end and that Snape and Dumbledore arranged their plans under the belief that it was a test for Snape.

You see tho' - I think Snape did NOT know Draco's task. I think that was the point of the whole of the chapter, especially taking the Vow. That he was trying to figure out what the task was to be. He found out a great deal about it just from Bella and Narcissa. Namely that it was something that Draco would likely be unable to accomplish (that he would probably die in the attempt) and that it was something even Voldy had never accomplished before.

Considering THIS Voldy had already infiltrated Hogwarts twice in the series (possibly 3 times if you count Lucius' influence over Umbridge, or 4 if you count DiaryTom), it is evident that it is more than just letting Voldy into Hogwarts - the obvious 'task' for Draco. That left getting the prophecy from Sybil - unlikely for success, but also unlikely to actually kill Draco. Or attempting to kill either Albus or Harry - both of which Voldy has not accomplished.

I think it's also important that Snape says his bit to the ladies about knowing the task only after going to the window and closing the curtains.

1) symbolic of occlumency - likely means he's going to lie (also symbolized when he fist opened the door for them - his hair is referred to as curtains, I think).

2) he specifically moved AWAY from the staircase where Peter was probably listening. I don't think he actually cast muffliato - I think it was important that he warned Bella and Cissa that Peter was there eavesdropping - telling them that everything they say will probably go right back to Voldy.

3) he speaks about the task in a particularly quiet voice. Peter hears all of the conversation except this part. He especially heard Snape tell Cissa that she shouldn't discuss it since Voldy told her not to do so.

I think Spinners End shows us exactly how Snape gathers information - thru implications that he already knows.

You see tho' - I think Snape did NOT know Draco's task. I think that was the point of the whole of the chapter, especially taking the Vow. That he was trying to figure out what the task was to be.
That is certainly a viable interpretation as well. I just don't agree with it, because I think from Voldemort's point of view, keeping Snape 100% in the dark does not make sense. In PS/SS Snape foiled Quirrell on at least one occasion (the troll incident), but in the end was able to claim innocence (as he explains to Bella) because he thought he was just dealing with 'unworthy Quirrell'. He could be equally interfering with Draco, again in all innocence, unless he is warned off in some way.

To address your specific point, I think Snape could have taken the Vow because while he knew the objective (kill Dumbledore) he was in the dark regarding the means. Taking the Vow would win Narcissa's trust, and ensure that Narcissa would vouch for him to Draco, and would certainly tell him anything she happened to learn that would enable him to help Draco better. (I don't think he was expecting the Vow to be problematic, I think he expected clause three would be to 'help', not do it himself). It also gives him an ironclad motive Voldemort and the other Death Eaters would all understand (if not approve) to keep an eye on Draco for ther rest of the year-self-preservation.

He found out a great deal about it just from Bella and Narcissa. Namely that it was something that Draco would likely be unable to accomplish (that he would probably die in the attempt) and that it was something even Voldy had never accomplished before.
Assuming he didn't already know, naturally.

I think it's also important that Snape says his bit to the ladies about knowing the task only after going to the window and closing the curtains.

1) symbolic of occlumency - likely means he's going to lie (also symbolized when he fist opened the door for them - his hair is referred to as curtains, I think).

On a strictly story-internal, non-symbolic level, he shows the sisters the great respect he has for Voldemort's secrets with this act. And as you point out, hides from Peter the fact that he encourages the ladies to talk about it. making it seem, perhaps, as if they volunteered the information despite his admonition to drop the subject.

2) he specifically moved AWAY from the staircase where Peter was probably listening. I don't think he actually cast muffliato - I think it was important that he warned Bella and Cissa that Peter was there eavesdropping - telling them that everything they say will probably go right back to Voldy.

Again a prudent precaution, regardless of whether he knows it or not. Especially if he hopes something he does not yet know slips out.

3) he speaks about the task in a particularly quiet voice. Peter hears all of the conversation except this part. He especially heard Snape tell Cissa that she shouldn't discuss it since Voldy told her not to do so.

See responses to 1) and 2).

You see tho' - I think Snape did NOT know Draco's task. I think that was the point of the whole of the chapter, especially taking the Vow. That he was trying to figure out what the task was to be. He found out a great deal about it just from Bella and Narcissa. Namely that it was something that Draco would likely be unable to accomplish (that he would probably die in the attempt) and that it was something even Voldy had never accomplished before.



An interesting idea. It's very important to note that the plan is only referred to as "the plan" for the whole chapter. This is a very brilliantly written chapter - it keeps the reader wondering what this plan is, which we don't learn until the climax of the book. Assuming that Snape does not know of this plan, it's not just important for the reader's perspective, it's also important to Snape. Narcissa refuses to disclose details of the plan both because she is forbidden to speak of it, and it is also horrifying to her because it involves her son attempting murder. This is very convienent to Snape, because he does not know of the plan or its details. Being the brilliant Occlumens that he is, he can pretend he knows if it proves necessary, or he can pretend he doesn't know, and tell Narcissa and Bella to go before he reports them to Voldemort for leaking the plan. Either way, he can shield his loyalties easily. I think the major clue in the chapter as to what Draco's task actually was was dropped when Narcissa wondered how Voldemort could expect Draco to accomplish the task when even Voldemort had never been able to do it. What's the thing Voldemort has wanted to do for many years, but could never accomplish? Why, kill Dumbledore, of course.



I think it's also important that Snape says his bit to the ladies about knowing the task only after going to the window and closing the curtains.

1) symbolic of occlumency - likely means he's going to lie (also symbolized when he fist opened the door for them - his hair is referred to as curtains, I think).



Other than serving as symbolism, why did Snape close the curtains? Did he think Peter was watching from outside?



2) he specifically moved AWAY from the staircase where Peter was probably listening. I don't think he actually cast muffliato - I think it was important that he warned Bella and Cissa that Peter was there eavesdropping - telling them that everything they say will probably go right back to Voldy.



Yes, he was warning them to be careful what they said. Snape apparantly sensed Wormtail listening outside the door AFTER he told him to go to his bedroom - crucial. I wonder if Wormtail actually did go up to his bedroom? Was he still listening? We are told that he "scurries up the stairs" after Snape points his wand at the door.

Snape says that he "doesn't know what [Wormtail] means by [listening at doors]." This is an obvious lie. After all, Voldemort's most faithful servant has just showed up to interrogate him about his loyalties, so if he didn't know why Wormtail was listening at doors, he would certainly know then.

Snape makes it clear from the start that he despises Wormtail - we all know why, no matter what you think of Snape, but I don't think it would be that obvious to Narcissa and Bella - and that he is rather resenting the fact that Wormtail has been placed there as his servant. In return, Wormtail makes it clear that HE resents being Snape's servant. Wormtail might not be the greatest wizard, but he does possess a certain amount of cunning.

In any case, it's obvious that Wormtail and Snape do not like sharing the house. Wormtail says he will "speak to [the Dark Lord] himself if [he] wants to" regarding his position as Snape's servant, and Snape says that he "shall speak to the Dark Lord" if Wormtail wants more dangerous assignments. The most obvious thing in this scene is that Wormtail is NOT there just to clean Snape's house and serve drinks.



3) he speaks about the task in a particularly quiet voice. Peter hears all of the conversation except this part. He especially heard Snape tell Cissa that she shouldn't discuss it since Voldy told her not to do so.



How interesting that the two most morally complex Death Eaters are sharing a house together - each of them apparantly spying on the other. But Peter, who hasn't done anything really useful for Voldemort since returning him to his body, is doing a crucial task in spying on Snape. Obviously, Peter would not be told about the plan, and Snape has learned that Voldemort has forbidden anybody to speak of the plan, so Peter must not hear of it. An important question: did Peter overhear the Unbreakable Vow?

That is certainly a viable interpretation as well. I just don't agree with it, because I think from Voldemort's point of view, keeping Snape 100% in the dark does not make sense. In PS/SS Snape foiled Quirrell on at least one occasion (the troll incident), but in the end was able to claim innocence (as he explains to Bella) because he thought he was just dealing with 'unworthy Quirrell'. He could be equally interfering with Draco, again in all innocence, unless he is warned off in some way.My gut instinct is that Snape didn't know the task, although both scenarios are equally viable, at this point. The thing that I'm not sure about, though, is why Snape would speak to Narcissa about the task, if he knew what it was. His manner is to imply that he doesn't want to talk about it while subtly drawing the conversation back to it anyway. I think that he would not have done that, if he'd known already.
I think the major clue in the chapter as to what Draco's task actually was was dropped when Narcissa wondered how Voldemort could expect Draco to accomplish the task when even Voldemort had never been able to do it. What's the thing Voldemort has wanted to do for many years, but could never accomplish? Why, kill Dumbledore, of course.Or kill Harry. (Unless Snape knew then that Voldemort wanted Harry only for himself.)

I think that he would not have done that, if he'd known already.


Actually, I considered it a quite clever plot device. Severus makes it entirely clear that if one is to discuss Draco's task with someone who doesn't know, that simple fact makes them a traitor to Lord Voldemort.

Therefore, if Dumbledore's later implication to Draco is to believed, when Severus Snape revealed Draco's task to him, that clearly made Severus Snape a traitor to Voldemort.

In a similar vein, when Harry is taking Occlumency lessons, Snape tells him that only a highly skilled Occlumens can tell the Dark Lord a lie to his face and get away with it. Which indicates that it is possible, and there is only one way for Severus to know this for a fact.

This also tells us that Snape is not loyal to Voldemort in one of either two dimensions:

Obviously he is aware of someone lying to the Dark Lord. Which means that it was either Snape himself doing the lying (and getting away with it); or someone else lied to the Dark Lord and got away with it--and trusted Severus Snape enough to tell him that they had lied.

The latter doesn't seem terribly likely. If you'll lie to Voldemort and manage to get away with it, why risk trusting anyone else? So I am forced to conclude that Severus Snape has baldly lied to Lord Voldemort, to his face, and succeeded in concealing the truth. Most likely this involves the very line of questioning that Bellatrix, a far less formidable foe, subjected him to at Spinner's End. And I don't think that she was practicing Legilimency.

Excellent points, IgoRetla! :tu:

Ignisia said: Any idea what time it was, gorgie? Or do you just have a hunch?

Hee :) Mostly just a hunch. JKR has said that Snape was loved. This could be, as many have assumed, just motherly love or it could be romantic love. In either occastion he would be aware of such love. I think if he was ever loved by anyone and knew it he would be happy.
I just like the thought that he was happy and then somehow lost that which made him happy, what ever it may be.


On the Snape Voldy realationship: I think that it is possible that Snape knew of the plan to kill Dumbledore and told Dumbledore the plan. That would be why he knew that Draco was trying to kill him; Snape told him so. I think the whole thing with the assasination was a trap for Snape. Voldy wanted proof of Snape's loyalty and "knew" that if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore he could not kill him. Of course Voldy has no understanding of true loyalty and that self sacrifice is the most pure form of love. Dumbledore sacrificed him self for his friends and loved ones. Snape simply did what he was ordered to do. Voldy will be upset that Snape succeded where he had failed but glad that Dumbledore was dead. I think there will be some serious crucio's in store for Snape when he gets to DE headquarters. I also think that at some point his cover will be blown, possibly by Draco or Wormtail.

Hee :) Mostly just a hunch. JKR has said that Snape was loved. This could be, as many have assumed, just motherly love or it could be romantic love. In either occastion he would be aware of such love. I think if he was ever loved by anyone and knew it he would be happy.
I just like the thought that he was happy and then somehow lost that which made him happy, what ever it may be.


On the Snape Voldy realationship: I think that it is possible that Snape knew of the plan to kill Dumbledore and told Dumbledore the plan. That would be why he knew that Draco was trying to kill him; Snape told him so. I think the whole thing with the assasination was a trap for Snape. Voldy wanted proof of Snape's loyalty and "knew" that if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore he could not kill him. Of course Voldy has no understanding of true loyalty and that self sacrifice is the most pure form of love. Dumbledore sacrificed him self for his friends and loved ones. Snape simply did what he was ordered to do. Voldy will be upset that Snape succeded where he had failed but glad that Dumbledore was dead. I think there will be some serious crucio's in store for Snape when he gets to DE headquarters. I also think that at some point his cover will be blown, possibly by Draco or Wormtail.


Yes, I too am afraid for Snape's fate. My prediction is that he will be killed by Voldemort at the climax or midpoint of Book 7. But unlike most people, I do not think that Snape will suffer repurcussions from Voldemort for killing Dumbledore - after all, he had delegated the task to a 16-year-old boy in the first place, and he certainly can't complain about Dumbledore being dead.

I like your point about Dumbledore's sacrifice. It's anagolous to Lily's in an indirect way - an interesting coincidence (*cough*Snape/Lily*cough*). In both times Voldemort failed to realize there were worse things than death. The thing worse than death is the denial of, or inability to, love - ironically, then, Voldemort's own existence is worse than death. He failed to realize the power of love in killing Lily and having Dumbledore killed.

A slight change in subject. I just realized the significance of Snape having been loved. I always thought that Snape and Lily's relationship was one-sided; Snape having an unreturned love. Was Snape loved by Lily? Or Eileen Prince?

Actually, I'm still holding out hope that Snape is the reason JKR said that talking about teacher marriages was restricted info. It's the last book and I really cannot see how whether Minerva was once married will suddenly become important. I think the only teachers that it COULD be about would be Albus or Snape. And I cannot see the reason why it must be lkept secret for Albus.

Altho' I think Snape loved Lily, I think it was more as a friend. I'm betting on Florence - mostly because it's the only memory that we still don't know who was hidden in it. (well, I suppose one really doesn't KNOW Aberforth was hidden in the memory of Burke talking about Merope, but I think there were enough clues to figure it out) Plus, Firenze is a word clue reminder (as is Florenz (sp?) Fortescue of the name Florence. And I'm still waiting for SOME kind of condemnation of the Aurors who used Unforgivable in VW1 - JKR (a supporter of Amnesty Int'l) is unlikely to leave THAT open (I think) without a real comment.

My tin foil hat theory is that Snape married her and that she (and possibly their son - no daughters for Snape, JKR said soabout Luna) were killed by aurors, even tho' they were not guilty of anything - and that it was what finally drove him to Voldy. Pretty out there, I know.

Actually, I'm still holding out hope that Snape is the reason JKR said that talking about teacher marriages was restricted info. It's the last book and I really cannot see how whether Minerva was once married will suddenly become important. I think the only teachers that it COULD be about would be Albus or Snape. And I cannot see the reason why it must be lkept secret for Albus.

Altho' I think Snape loved Lily, I think it was more as a friend. I'm betting on Florence - mostly because it's the only memory that we still don't know who was hidden in it. (well, I suppose one really doesn't KNOW Aberforth was hidden in the memory of Burke talking about Merope, but I think there were enough clues to figure it out) Plus, Firenze is a word clue reminder (as is Florenz (sp?) Fortescue of the name Florence. And I'm still waiting for SOME kind of condemnation of the Aurors who used Unforgivable in VW1 - JKR (a supporter of Amnesty Int'l) is unlikely to leave THAT open (I think) without a real comment.

My tin foil hat theory is that Snape married her and that she (and possibly their son - no daughters for Snape, JKR said soabout Luna) were killed by aurors, even tho' they were not guilty of anything - and that it was what finally drove him to Voldy. Pretty out there, I know.


Sorry to debunk your theory, but Florean Fortescue is a man...

I know - I meant HE was also a reference (word clue) to Florence - sound alike for Florins (a gold coin popular throughout Europe in the middle ages, first minted in Florence, Italy - aka Firenze in Italian).

Florence was the girl Bertha caught SOMEONE kissing, for which she was hexed. Considering that memory was a very specific kind of pensieve memory - the kind that you cannot dive into and take a look at who else was there - I think the memory was intended tohide whomever was standing in Albus' office with her, apparently the guy who hexed her, the guy who kissed Florence. Whom I think will turn out to be Snape.

But, I know, it IS a really 'out-there' theory. I'm not holding my breath or anything.

As for Snape and love and all, I just had a reeeeally "out-there" thought last night: Lots of people (myself included) think that Snape was in love with Lily, and she didn't know or something...But what if it was the other way around, and Snape only learned to appreciate her love after it faded and she went to James?

Actually, I'm still holding out hope that Snape is the reason JKR said that talking about teacher marriages was restricted info. It's the last book and I really cannot see how whether Minerva was once married will suddenly become important. I think the only teachers that it COULD be about would be Albus or Snape. And I cannot see the reason why it must be lkept secret for Albus.

I'm hoping it's Snape, too, but the interests of intellectual truth force me to admit that it's crossed my mind that Bill Weasley could become DADA teacher after marrying Fleur, or Lupin could return to teach at Hogwarts having married Tonks, or Hagrid could marry Madame Maxime in the summer break. the info is restricted, but that doesn't mean the marriage itself is top secret...it could just be the identity of the next DADA teacher that's under wraps.

Originally posted by ignisia
As for Snape and love and all, I just had a reeeeally "out-there" thought last night: Lots of people (myself included) think that Snape was in love with Lily, and she didn't know or something...But what if it was the other way around, and Snape only learned to appreciate her love after it faded and she went to James?

Nice idea! I'm going to go away and think about that.

I've played with the thought that Snape has a muggle wife and children squirrelled away somewhere. :D

All the more reason for Dumbledore to trust him against Voldemort! :lol:

I'm sorry, I just can't imagine, no matter how hard I try, Severus Snape having a wife. I don't think he's the teacher with a "secret" spouse.

If he had one, don't you think we would have met her in the Spinner's End chapter?

Incidentally, I do like the idea of Bill becoming the next DADA teacher...but that's completely unrelated to the current topic of discussion.

A slight change in subject. I just realized the significance of Snape having been loved. I always thought that Snape and Lily's relationship was one-sided; Snape having an unreturned love. Was Snape loved by Lily? Or Eileen Prince?
There are a few of us Snape/Lily mutual romantic relationship folks around. ;)


I'm hoping it's Snape, too, but the interests of intellectual truth force me to admit that it's crossed my mind that Bill Weasley could become DADA teacher after marrying Fleur, or Lupin could return to teach at Hogwarts having married Tonks, or Hagrid could marry Madame Maxime in the summer break. the info is restricted, but that doesn't mean the marriage itself is top secret...it could just be the identity of the next DADA teacher that's under wraps.
I haven't seen that quote in a while, but wasn't it phrased in past tense? I think I remember pondering it at the time and pretty much dismissing the idea that it might apply to a future teacher or future marriage. I'll go see if I can find the quote.

I'm sorry, I just can't imagine, no matter how hard I try, Severus Snape having a wife. I don't think he's the teacher with a "secret" spouse.

If he had one, don't you think we would have met her in the Spinner's End chapter?

I don't think he has a wife now. Considering the gothic hero leanings of his character, I expect that if he had a great love, she is long dead and he is still very much in love and in mourning.

There are a few of us Snape/Lily mutual romantic relationship folks around. ;)



<snip>

I don't think he has a wife now. Considering the gothic hero leanings of his character, I expect that if he had a great love, she is long dead and he is still very much in love and in mourning.

Reading between the lines, are you implying what I think you're implying?:wow:

I'm sorry, I just can't imagine, no matter how hard I try, Severus Snape having a wife. I don't think he's the teacher with a "secret" spouse.

If he had one, don't you think we would have met her in the Spinner's End chapter?

Incidentally, I do like the idea of Bill becoming the next DADA teacher...but that's completely unrelated to the current topic of discussion.

I'm the opposite...I have no problem with this idea.
But when I play around with notion ...first Snape was raised by at least one muggle so he's at least used to them knows something about them. The wizarding world at large was hardly accepting of him as a student ..purebloods like James and Sirius giving him some of his hardest times and his most humilating moment. A muggle would see him differently. She wouldn't be hearing all the whispering about being "up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" and all. Someone who didn't go to Hogwarts would just have a different take on Severus.
And certainly having a little family someplace Snape a stronger and more immediate reason than dead Lily to work for Voldemort's downfall.
It certainly adds to why Snape might have to kill DD (protecting his own family) and why DD might make that sacrifice.
It also would give finally give Snape something in common with James Potter....a desire to protect their families. A similiarity I'm sure Harry would notice.
I would find something like this much more interesting for Snape and for us than I would a schoolboy love triangle.
Or poor Snape carrying some torch for the rest of his life.
That being said.... I don't think we're going that way.

I hope I'm not annoying anyone with my rather abrupt changes of the topic, but one thing that puzzles me every time I read it is Snape's rather odd behaviour at the start of the first Occlumency lesson. When Harry comes in to his office, it's clear that Snape is resenting this task and that he is going to treat him just as bad, if not worse, than he does in Potions.

He is described as "tracing his finger around his mouth" repeatedly. This is the part that really puzzles me. It's an odd scene to picture, and I have no idea what this gesture is supposed to mean. He insults Harry after Harry demonstrates a less-than-perfect knowledge of Occlumency, then he waxes poetic about the subject, while still managing to insult Harry again ("...or at least, most minds are"). Snape shows a bit of a paradox-like behaviour here.

I'm sorry, I just can't imagine, no matter how hard I try, Severus Snape having a wife. I don't think he's the teacher with a "secret" spouse.

If he had one, don't you think we would have met her in the Spinner's End chapter?

Nobody ever agrees with this theory! :lol:

But if he did have one, I think he'd be living a double life masquerading as a muggle in the summer. :p She'd be in some suburb and possibly even have no clue Snape is a wizard...or she'd be sworn to secrecy...like Samantha in Bewitched, only in reverse. :rotfl:

SKasparRollins, I found Snape's treatment of Harry in the first Occlumency lesson rather better than I would have expected based on Potions. He was surprisingly willing to explain things (if condescendingly) and answer questions. Harry asked piles of them, and Snape answered them, for pages, before they got down to the business of practicing Occlumency. I would rather have expected Snape to cut Harry off and insist the discussion be limited to the nuts and bolts of Occlumency, from the start.

I think that the lip-tracing mannerism is Snape needing to think about how he will answer Harry's questions, given that there are things Dumbledore has decided he should not know at this point. He's trying to answer those parts of Harry's questions that are 'OK', in such a way that they don't lead to lines of questioning Snape (and Dumbledore) would rather avoid.

Nobody ever agrees with this theory! :lol:

But if he did have one, I think he'd be living a double life masquerading as a muggle in the summer. :p She'd be in some suburb and possibly even have no clue Snape is a wizard...or she'd be sworn to secrecy...like Samantha in Bewitched, only in reverse. :rotfl:

Actually I kind of do agree with this theory (I don't know about the Samantha thing..but hey why not)
But don't think there are a lot of us who like this theory.

It's better than "ZOMG! Snape Totally Crushed On Lily!!<3" theories. And there's about as much evidence for either. :p

I have actually wondered about Professor Sinistra. Why mention her by name? None of the students are shown taking her classes. She'd be a good bet, since they work together. It'd be really easy to hide a personal relationship beneath a professional one.

It's better than "ZOMG! Snape Totally Crushed On Lily!!<3" theories. And there's about as much evidence for either. :p


Please be respectful of other people's opinions and theories. :)

I've always read the finger circling the mouth as 'choosing his words carefully' Snape actually informs Harry of much more information than has been given most of the year - however, he is also hampered in his explanations by the very real possibility that Voldy is watching him teach Harry.

Right before the holidays Albus seems to have even caught a glimpse of Voldy/Snake glaring at him from Harry's eye. So, Snape must be exceedingly careful with the actual words he uses.

Especially in the first lesson, when he's trying to figure out whether Voldy really IS watching him or if he would even be able to tell he was.

What do you mean there's no evidence for the Snape/Lily theory? In short:


Lily appeared surprised that Snape called her a Mudblood
For some reason, Dumbledore believed Snape's sob story about feeling remorse for the Potters' deaths - while acknowledging that Snape never stopped hating James
Snape appeared "pale" after seeing Harry's memory of seeing his dead parents in the Mirror of Erised
Slughorn believed that Harry's newfound Potions brilliance was his mother's genes coming out in him. In fact, it was Snape that was helping him, but it is important to note that Snape and Lily were in the same year
Hermione noted that some of the Half Blood Prince's handwriting looked like a girl's
JKR gave a very vague answer when asked of Lily's popularity - specifically if she was loved by people other than James in her time at Hogwarts
Snape's boggart is one of the huge mysteries about his character. He left the room when Lupin was releasing the Boggart on the students to help teach them how to defeat a Boggart
Other than the "Mudblood" comment, Snape has never said anything about Lily to Harry, while continually pointing out how much he despised James
Alan Rickman, who knows Snape's true allegiances, stated that Lily tried to befriend Snape but Severus didn't want her pity
Snape HAS been loved...
There will be a HUGE revelation about Lily in Book 7
And, most importantly, Snape's Worst Memory is implied to have happened many, many times during Snape's education - or at least, the bullying part. What was the variable that made this one so painful?

I've always read the finger circling the mouth as 'choosing his words carefully'

To elaborate on this, putting his finger over his mouth could also be a way of making sure his mouth doesn't move until he knows he is ready with a perfect answer.

Tracing his mouth with his finger is something I've always found odd, since we don't see it except there. I wonder if he does it whenever he is in that mood, or if it's something he specifically does for the Occlumency lessons.

Actually I kind of do agree with this theory (I don't know about the Samantha thing..but hey why not)
But don't think there are a lot of us who like this theory.

The wonderful thing about not knowing what will happen is that we can like all kinds of theories, even if they contradict each other. :lol:

Inkwolf Said: I've played with the thought that Snape has a muggle wife and children squirrelled away somewhere.

All the more reason for Dumbledore to trust him against Voldemort!

Hey I like that idea. Why would his wife have to be a witch? In fact it seems much easier for him in a way.

I actually like the idea of Prof. Sinistra as being his "love" interest. It would be easy to hide a relationship behind a professional one ( as was stated before)

I love specualating.

...I have actually wondered about Professor Sinistra. Why mention her by name? None of the students are shown taking her classes. She'd be a good bet, since they work together. It'd be really easy to hide a personal relationship beneath a professional one.First, we DO see kids take her classes. She's the Astronomy teacher and we know at least Harry and Hermione were taking their OWL in Astronomy when Hagrid was attacked (and Minerva got hit with all those stunners). But I think she' really a word clue.

Many people assume that Sinistra would mean 'sinister' (as in 'evil'), but 'sinister' is a term in heraldry (coats of arms) - it means 'left' (as in the left side, or to the left). I think it's very important that Albus' end comes on HER tower.

Ages ago in history people began shaking hands to show they were not armed. Generally we use the right hand (our weapons hand) for this. It's partly where the idea that being left-handed is unlucky originates. A lefty could actually shake hands with his right and still hide and use a weapon in his left. Therefore people were extra suspicious of lefties.

But it also gives us the 'left-hand' as the secret weapon. And that's why I think it's important that the Astronomy teacher's name is Sinistra. A word clue that Snape is Albus' 'left-hand' weapon. The secret weapon he is placing at Voldy's side.

Of course for other threads who do not believe Snape is a good Order member, I suppose it could mean that Voldy's 'left-hand' was revealed.

What do you mean there's no evidence for the Snape/Lily theory? In short:
Didn't mean to sound disrespectful. I've just noted how often "because Snape was in love with Lily" is the basis for lots of other theorizing. I think that's more amusing than anything. I personally don't think everyone who ever went to school with Lily loved her.

Respectfully, though--
Lily appeared surprised that Snape called her a Mudblood Doesn't Hermione appear surprised to have that extremely bad ephithet thrown in her face too? Certainly the other Gryffindors who know what it means seem surprised on her behalf. I don't think we can assume Draco loves Hermione based on the reaction to hateful words, though.
For some reason, Dumbledore believed Snape's sob story about feeling remorse for the Potters' deaths - while acknowledging that Snape never stopped hating JamesIs feeling guilty about causing someone's death, even someone you despise, so difficult to believe? I've never wanted to be the cause of death of my school-day torturers...I think being a human being (not a monster) accounts well enough for this.
Snape appeared "pale" after seeing Harry's memory of seeing his dead parents in the Mirror of Erised He knows then that Harry's weakness is his parents. He knows Voldemort will use this against Harry if he learns of it.
Slughorn believed that Harry's newfound Potions brilliance was his mother's genes coming out in him. In fact, it was Snape that was helping him, but it is important to note that Snape and Lily were in the same yearSo...because they were in the same year and both good at Potions, he has to love her? Why is Lily exempt from loving Snape in return then?
Hermione noted that some of the Half Blood Prince's handwriting looked like a girl's Even if Lily wrote in Snape's book, it seems more likely that they were Potions partners to me.
JKR gave a very vague answer when asked of Lily's popularity - specifically if she was loved by people other than James in her time at Hogwarts Could be a reference to Lupin. They were prefects from the same house. The movie Lupin changed his dialog to be Lily-centric after Kloves consulted JKR.
Snape's boggart is one of the huge mysteries about his character. He left the room when Lupin was releasing the Boggart on the students to help teach them how to defeat a BoggartI don't follow why this has anything to do with Lily? Could be James would have popped out, but more importantly, Snape's not about to let Harry Potter learn his biggest fear...
Other than the "Mudblood" comment, Snape has never said anything about Lily to Harry, while continually pointing out how much he despised JamesSnape didn't make this comment to Harry, either. Snape doesn't appear to speak ill of any of his other classmates who didn't torture him in school.
Alan Rickman, who knows Snape's true allegiances, stated that Lily tried to befriend Snape but Severus didn't want her pityHe's a very proud man. He wouldn't want anyone's pity. Pity is not equal to kindness.
Snape HAS been loved...Yes. We don't know by whom yet.
There will be a HUGE revelation about Lily in Book 7 Probably about her eyes...JKR has been promising something along that line since book 4 or 5.
And, most importantly, Snape's Worst Memory is implied to have happened many, many times during Snape's education - or at least, the bullying part. What was the variable that made this one so painful?
Public humiliation? The revelation of his undergarments? That his own spell was used against him? That he let this sort of stuff make him susceptible to the Death Eaters recruitment?

The theory really isn't based on all that much, imo; but I have been wrong before, so don't take my opinion too much to heart. However, my comment meant to refer only to those who get carried away by thie theory and use it as if it were canon to found other, out-of-character-for-Snape theories. Most "Snape Could Have Cared For Lily" supporters are not "ZOMG!<3<3" theorizers. Hope that clears up my last. Didn't mean to make anyone defensive.:no:

First, we DO see kids take her classes. She's the Astronomy teacher and we know at least Harry and Hermione were taking their OWL in Astronomy when Hagrid was attacked (and Minerva got hit with all those stunners).
I meant that she's never mentioned in class. We never hear details about her teaching. She doesn't appear to be there when the student are taking the OWL. She has a suspiciously low profile for one of their regular teachers. We hear about McGonagall, Snape, Flitwick, Trelawney, Hooch, Pomfrey, Filch, Pince, Sprout, Firenze and Hagrid interacting with the students in their classes (or their domains of professional authority). When the kids take Astronomy, all is quiet. Even Hermione mentions Vector from time to time, but none of the kids ever say much about Sinistra. It would be interesting to think there might be a reason for the silence on JKR's part, though it may be as you say, her significance may be her name, and so she's never more than that.

However, most of Snape's colleagues think well of him, despite the occasional lack of professionalism he shows. (I sometimes wish I could get away with saying the things he says in his classes! :D ) Though, he's a bit less-than-represented by Slughorn. I wonder if Snape isn't well-connected enough to warrant his enthusiasm, or if he was at loggerheads with Snape during the time he taught Potions.

Originally posted by Vigilance
The theory really isn't based on all that much, imo; but I have been wrong before, so don't take my opinion too much to heart.

The most powerful rationale for the theory I've ever heard is that:

1. We know for definite (because DD tells us) that Snape felt terrible remorse for telling Voldy the prophecy once he discovered the identity of the parents that Voldy was hunting down. Which suggests a strong emotional attachment to one or other (or both) of Harry's parents.

2. We know for definite (because DD tells us) that Snape had always hated James, so it's unlikely to be James to whom Snape had the emotional attachment.

3. Therefore the logical conclusion would seem to be that Snape had an emotional attachment to Lily.

I'm quite attached to the Snape/Lily theory, but I can understand your frustration when people refer to it as if it were canon. I think some of us sometimes forget that not all Snape supporters are Snape/Lily shippers, and I apologise if I've ever done that.

The "emotional attachment" argument expresses a narrow view of love and guilt (namely, that anyone who does not feel an emotional attachment could cause the death of someone else without being too upset later on, as long it was done unwittingly, and that romantic love is the only kind of love that would motivate someone like Snape's remorse).

I try to put myself in Snape's place (this is surprisingly easy for me as an educator who was mercilessly bullied in school), how would I feel if I had told a megalomaniacal villain that he should feel threatened by a defenseless baby only to discover that I had instigated a family tragedy resulting in two deaths of former classmates (one of whom I disliked keenly) and an orphaned child? Would only romantic love for the child's mother make me feel bad? Would I be OK with the despised classmate dying? No. But of course, I'm not Snape.

That aside, why skip straight to romantic love, though? Couldn't Lily just have been his Potions' partner, and a witch whose skills he may have admired? I think Snape would feel as remorseful if the victim had been McG or DD or even Flitwick or Sprout (maybe any "good" person,judged by his values), though perhaps especially a mother who stepped between her child and danger (we can only speculate about Snape's childhood, but I'm guessing that this is a familiar concept to him).

However, I freely admit that JKR has proved me wrong on more than one occasion, and I have been disappointed by some of her choices (so we're not on the same page). I've thought it would be a pity if the only time Snape can feel remorse is when he gets the girl he loved killed. Maybe, if his mother really was abused by his father, it only makes sense that he would take out some deep-seeded frustrations on Lily (I mean, he may not have intended outright murder, but he can't have believed nothing would happen)??? Maybe he really is like The Grinch with a heart so small. It is true that he's not good at promoting the Love Thy Neighbor Philosophy common to Dumbledore. Maybe he really doesn't have that sense of societal love. But, I think he's more heroic than this limitation would naturally imply (and that being in love with Lily would place further limits on his heroism). Even The Grinch comes to love the whole town at the end. XD

The "emotional attachment" argument expresses a narrow view of love and guilt (namely, that anyone who does not feel an emotional attachment could cause the death of someone else without being too upset later on, as long it was done unwittingly, and that romantic love is the only kind of love that would motivate someone like Snape's remorse).

I try to put myself in Snape's place (this is surprisingly easy for me as an educator who was mercilessly bullied in school), how would I feel if I had told a megalomaniacal villain that he should feel threatened by a defenseless baby only to discover that I had instigated a family tragedy resulting in two deaths of former classmates (one of whom I disliked keenly) and an orphaned child? Would only romantic love for the child's mother make me feel bad? Would I be OK with the despised classmate dying? No. But of course, I'm not Snape.

Fair points. However, I felt that the way DD's description of Snape's remorse was phrased (sorry, book's upstairs and I'm feeling lazy, so I won't quote, but I think it's something like "he had no idea that the parents Voldemort would hunt so remorslessly were people he knew") implied that Snape expected Voldy to go hunting someone down and had no problem with that, it was the identity of those people that was the big deal.

It could, as you say, just be that they're former classmates. This would make a neat parallel with Draco up on the Tower - up until that moment he's theoretically been keen to kill DD, but when faced with the real prospect of killing someone he knows, his headmaster, he can't go through with it.

However, Snape's not just an ex-bullied educator - he's also been a DE for some time. Surely he's more inured to killing by now than to fall apart at the killing of his old school enemy?

Moreover, Lupin doesn't buy remorse at James's death as a realistic reason for Snape's repentance, when Harry says at the end of HBP that that was DD's "cast-iron reason" for trusting Snape. I believe that JKR is here once again using Harry's PoV to create unreliable narration, and that Harry's mistaken - DD's real reason for trusting Snape was nothing to do with James. The fact that no-one replies when Harry says Snape didn't give a damn about his mother also makes me suspect that the real reason is something to do with Lily.

By the way - I was mercilessly bullied at school and I was an educator for many years, too - SNAP!

That aside, why skip straight to romantic love, though?

Good point. I'm willing to admit the possibility of their being platonic friends or her being his intellectual hero. As someone who's long-term single through choice, I get peeved by the common assumption that the only relationships that ar deep or worthwhile are romantic ones, so I'm with you all the way here.

However, I freely admit that JKR has proved me wrong on more than one occasion, and I have been disappointed by some of her choices

Me, too. I'm bracing myself for huge disappointment with the last book, so I could very well be proved wrong on this theory, too.

Maybe, if his mother really was abused by his father, it only makes sense that he would take out some deep-seeded frustrations on Lily

Ah, you see, I don't think the "hook-nosed" man abusing the woman in the Pensieve memory is his father. Rationale - the whole Madam-Pince-is-Snape's-relative theory. She's got a hooked nose, too and her name sounds a bit like Prince. A hooked nose has been mentioned so many times in relation to Snape it's clearly a signifier. But if she is a relative, she must be on the Prince side, not the Snape side. Therefore the hooked nose is a Prince gene, not a Snape gene. Therefore the abusive man is a maternal relative, not snape's father. Could he be a Marvolo Gaunt-like figure, abusing Eileen for marrying a Muggle and having a tainted mixed race son? OK, so this is a bit tenuous, but...

That aside, why skip straight to romantic love, though? Couldn't Lily just have been his Potions' partner, and a witch whose skills he may have admired? I think Snape would feel as remorseful if the victim had been McG or DD or even Flitwick or Sprout (maybe any "good" person,judged by his values), though perhaps especially a mother who stepped between her child and danger (we can only speculate about Snape's childhood, but I'm guessing that this is a familiar concept to him).

I would tend to agree with you, except for one thing. The way Snape acts/talks to Harry, stressing that he's James's son, and seeing James's flaws in him. To me this makes more sense if he did have a romantic interest in Lily, than if she was merely a friendly classmate whose death he helped bring about (however unwillingly, in the end). Harry is then not merely the son of the two dead classmates, but a reminder of what he never had.

However, I freely admit that JKR has proved me wrong on more than one occasion, and I have been disappointed by some of her choices (so we're not on the same page). I've thought it would be a pity if the only time Snape can feel remorse is when he gets the girl he loved killed.

I guess I have enough faith in Rowling that I don't think this is how it will come across, even if Snape did love Lily. It is his greatest regret (according to Dumbledore), and the reason he returned, true. But that does not mean it was his only regret.

Maybe, if his mother really was abused by his father, it only makes sense that he would take out some deep-seeded frustrations on Lily (I mean, he may not have intended outright murder, but he can't have believed nothing would happen)???

When he reported the Prophecy, he had no idea who would be affected (again if you believe Dumbledore), even if he did think it through enough to suppose that Voldemort would shortly be taking action to eliminate the 'One'. So he wasn;t targeting anyone in particualr for whom he had any particular sorts of feelings, when he did it.

Even The Grinch comes to love the whole town at the end. XD

Yes, but it is the little Who girl that starts the ball rolling. That's how I think it will be handled. Lily, whom he cared for in a romantic way playing the role of the littlest Who. I think in the end we will learn that he does love the whole town, as you put it. I am fairly convinced he already does. He quite obviously does things to protect Harry, which could be merely because he is Lily's son, or the boy he helped orphan, but why is he emotionally affected by the news that Ginny was taken by the monster in CoS? Why does he protect Neville on two occasions in OotP (once from Harry and Ron, who appear to be fighting with him, once from Crabbe/Goyle, who has him in an overly tight chokehold in Umbridge's office?)

I think it is because he does not want to see anyone hurt. His manner is anything but sentimental, but that, I think, is because he is firmly convinced that he originally got himself into trouble by 'wearing his heart on his sleeve', and is resolved never to repeat that mistake.

I would tend to agree with you, except for one thing. The way Snape acts/talks to Harry, stressing that he's James's son, and seeing James's flaws in him. To me this makes more sense if he did have a romantic interest in Lily, than if she was merely a friendly classmate whose death he helped bring about (however unwillingly, in the end). Harry is then not merely the son of the two dead classmates, but a reminder of what he never had.

Ah, I see the whole Snape Hates Harry thing differently. Like Sirius, he can't help but see James when he looks at Harry, only out of disdain rather than fine feeling. Like Sirius, Snape hasn't gotten passed the past. The fact that he never mentions Lily, to me, suggests that he rarely thinks about her. And if he did admire her, it probably wasn't for her eyes; he can't see her in Harry. His inquisition at the first Potions class suggests that he might have been testing Potter for aptitude (his mother's?) in this area. He then makes snide remarks about how he didn't read his books; I'm guessing Snape thought he would have if he was really like his mother.

Reasonably, what in Harry's behavior would make Snape think of her? Harry looks like James. Harry loves quidditch like James. Harry breaks rules and thinks he can get away with it like James. Is he good in Charms? Not especially. Is he good in Potions? Not especially. Does he like to study, and can he keep other students in line? Not really, no. Seeing Lily in Harry's eyes is really all anyone else ever sees. Maybe Snape never really looked into them that often?

EDIT: Never looked into Lily's eyes that often

Seeing Lily in Harry's eyes is really all anyone else ever sees. Maybe Snape never really looked into them that often?

I can't tell you how much I agree with this. Snape hasn't said or done a thing to indicate even sees Lily in Harry at all.
And Vigilance above is correct...you don't have to in love with someone to feel tremendously guilty if your actions lead to someone death.
I have to admit I'm not any sort of shipper. Most of the time who ends up with who
isn't a big deal.
But I've never liked this particular "ship" because I've seen versions of this "ship" so often in fiction. It's just not that interesting to me and I think sells both Snape and Lily short as characters.
follow it through....what I'm being asked to believe really is that Snape is the kind of man who would allow his hatred for James to override his love for Lily when he looks at Lily's son.
Because I don't think his dislike of Harry because of James is something Snape's faking.
So what does that say for Snape??? At the very least... a little immature. And since I don't think Snape is an immature person....I have huge issues with this theory.

As for Lily, I think doing the Snape-Lily-James triangle risks Lily starting to come off as a tad Mary Sueish.
The only way this might work for me is....that Snape turned her down and she settled for James as second prize. :D

As for Lily, I think doing the Snape-Lily-James triangle risks Lily starting to come off as a tad Mary Sueish.
The only way this might work for me is....that Snape turned her down and she settled for James as second prize. :D

You know, I hadn't thought about it as such, but that's exactly the impression I have. It's Mary Sue-ish! I also might have been more open to the theory if James and Snape weren't archenemies, but since they are, I can't help but think that Lily would have been just another bone they fought over. You're right, Lily is shorted in either case, since we don't know enough about her: she's either the popular girl whom everyone fancies loving but no one really sees as a real person, or she's just a pawn in their ego war. :no:

But, I'm afraid I'm being too outspoken again, and I don't want anyone to take my disagreement for disrespect, so I'll end here (if I can restrain myself :p). I just wanted to say, I'm glad I'm not alone, since it seems like everyone prefers the Snape/Lily theories.

Before I get into my post, I want to say a brief word on why I am discussing the Snape loved Lily idea with a Snape supporters who rejects it. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the 'right' answer (though I do now believe it). Rather, I see in these views where I was immediately prior to HBP. I had seen discussion of the OotP clues for this theory, and thought believers were (pardon the frankness) thinking wishfully.

HBP convinced me that this is where Rowling is going, whether I like it, or not. (Not, was rather my first impression.) I have come to feel, though, that there is nothing truly 'bad' about the theory. Assuming the theory is correct in broad outline, what will determine my level of satisfaction with book 7 is the execution. I am increasingly convinced that this idea can be written in a way that is not sappy, and does not lessen any of the characters involved, and I am holding out hope that Rowling will do it.

The fact that he never mentions Lily, to me, suggests that he rarely thinks about her.
Or can't bear to bring her up, at all.

And if he did admire her, it probably wasn't for her eyes; he can't see her in Harry.

Fans of the theory point out Harry wears glasses. In the Worst Memory chapter, there is a moment when Snape is shaking Harry and Harry's glasses slip down. Some think this is a clue...

'Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?' said Snape, shaking Harry so hard his glasses slipped down his nose.

'I - didn't -'

Snape threw Harry from him with all his might. Harry fell hard on to the dungeon floor.


Seeing those eyes is (according to the theory) what really got to him at that moment.

His inquisition at the first Potions class suggests that he might have been testing Potter for aptitude (his mother's?) in this area. He then makes snide remarks about how he didn't read his books; I'm guessing Snape thought he would have if he was really like his mother.

This works whether or not Snape loved Lily, it suffices that he simply admired her skill. However, it is another one of those little clues that the plant wormwood, mentioned in the questions, has a meaning in traditional flower symbolism: bitterness and regret. The plant asphodel, mentioned together with it, is a member of the Lily family. Could be a coincidence, of course. :)

EDIT: Never mind this exceedingly sappy point, then! :D
Seeing Lily in Harry's eyes is really all anyone else ever sees. Maybe Snape never really looked into them that often?

Arguably, because he can't bear to look. He does not want to see those eyes in James's face.

You're right, Lily is shorted in either case, since we don't know enough about her: she's either the popular girl whom everyone fancies loving but no one really sees as a real person, or she's just a pawn in their ego war.

Why? I tend to think Snape and Lily had a friendship based on common academic interests, and he fell for her, but could see she was not interested in him in that way. It does not have to be the case that he picked her to spite James, or that James would have seen getting Lily as a victory over Snape. ( I would bet Snape never made his intrest public, and possibly never even made it known to Lily).

Lily befriending unpopular, prickly Snape also shows her as not a stereotypical popular girl. She could forget his rather public insult to her, and was able to see his worthwhile traits.

This works whether or not Snape loved Lily, it suffices that he simply admired her skill. However, it is another one of those little clues that the plant wormwood, mentioned in the questions, has a meaning in traditional flower symbolism: bitterness and regret. The plant asphodel, mentioned together with it, is a member of the Lily family. Could be a coincidence, of course. :)
I think Mark Evans has very little company in the coincidence department. JKR just seems so incredibly thorough. Wormwood, by the way, is said to have first grown on the trail the serpent left behind as he departed the Garden of Eden.

There is also the "awful boy" reference that many of us believe refers to Snape. I believe that Petunia may know some secrets and that Harry may get some information from her fairly early on in Book 7. If Snape was the awful boy and had a prior relationship with Lily, Petunia may be counting on Dumbledore and Snape as protectors for her family if the worst should happen once Harry comes of age. If she overhears the trio discussing that Dumbledore is dead at Snape's hand, she could panic and spill some information.

I do believe the Snape/Lily relationship was a mutual one that will come to light without Snape himself providing the details. Dumbledore remarking on Petunia's agapanthus when he visited may be a clue in that regard. In flower meanings, agapanthus mean "secret love" or "love letters," so the something more to Petunia could be the secrets she holds.

I think many believe this is mere coincidence or means nothing, but it seems very suggestive to me that Snape and Evans are mirror images of one another, with the exception of the "v" as in Voldemort and "p" as in Potter, possibly the two people who came between them. I'm not allowed to go into any detail on how I think James came between them, but suffice it to say I personally believe he made a very poor choice at one time. His name means "supplantor."

Edit: Oooh! I forgot to mention that I also personally believe the "beauty and the beast" couples we see at the end of Book 6 are foreshadowing.

I don't think it detracts from Lily or Snape's character if the Snape/Lily theory turns out to be true. I think it was a one-sided love, with Snape having an unreturned love. That doesn't concern the development of Lily as a character at all, it merely adds a little backstory. She's still a believable and likable character.

It's important to note that Voldemort and most of his supporters have no capacity for love. If the Snape/Lily theory is true, then obviously Snape is NOT a Death Eater (that's the whole point of the theory). I don't think it detracts from Snape's character if he never stopped being in love with Lily; rather, it strengthens him. Snape is cynical, viciously insulting, condescending at times, indifferent a lot of the time, but he is one of the most intelligent and powerful characters in the series. Let's face it, Snape is not a likable person; from a literary analysis, he's a brilliant and likable (in a twisted way) character. But, when you consider the central theme of the HP series - love vs death - along with the rather unresolved issue of WHY Snape is such an unlikable person, I think Snape had to have been in love at some point.

I think Lily's death contributed, at least a little bit, to his mean character.

Fans of the theory point out Harry wears glasses. In the Worst Memory chapter, there is a moment when Snape is shaking Harry and Harry's glasses slip down. Some think this is a clue...

'Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?' said Snape, shaking Harry so hard his glasses slipped down his nose.

'I - didn't -'

Snape threw Harry from him with all his might. Harry fell hard on to the dungeon floor.


Seeing those eyes is (according to the theory) what really got to him at that moment.



This works whether or not Snape loved Lily, it suffices that he simply admired her skill. However, it is another one of those little clues that the plant wormwood, mentioned in the questions, has a meaning in traditional flower symbolism: bitterness and regret. The plant asphodel, mentioned together with it, is a member of the Lily family. Could be a coincidence, of course. :)

EDIT: Never mind this exceedingly sappy point, then! :D


Arguably, because he can't bear to look. He does not want to see those eyes in James's face.



Why? I tend to think Snape and Lily had a friendship based on common academic interests, and he fell for her, but could see she was not interested in him in that way.

Lily befriending unpopular, prickly Snape also shows her as not a stereotypical popular girl. She could forget his rather public insult to her, and was able to see his worthwhile traits.

But where is there anything really in HBP that supports this theory. Snape was good at potions, Slughorn "reports" Lily as being good in Potions....they would be in Advanced Potions together...along with whoever else passed with the appropriate OWL mark for Potions.
And that's really all HBP says about Snape/Lily/Potions. There's no doodlings of Lily Evans in Snape's spellbook as I recall. The only time we see Snape and Lily in the same scene as teenagers....Lily has just been so badly insulted she basically walks off and leaves Severus to his humilating fate, not a description for a happy couple.

Let's take the whole "glasses slipping off the nose" evidence. OK...it certainly could mean Snape can't stand to see Harry's eyes....or it could just as likely mean Snape was so sick and tired of this kid sticking his nose in where it didn't belong and Harry witnessing Snape's humilation at the hands of James Potter...that Snape lost control
and pushed Harry. He doesn't need anything else to be furious with Harry.

It would be kind of me turning around and using the unlived in look of the house at Spinners End as evidence that Snape actually lives with his muggle wife somewhere else
during the summer and at Hogwarts the rest of the year...hence that's the reason the house appears unlived in. He's only using the place now due to his death eater activities.
All HBP said was the house didn't look like it wasn't occupied often.

I stand by my opinion neither character comes off well in this theory. Snape especially...he's mistreats, on occasion, the love of his life's son because he can't stand who the father was.
He allows his hate for the dad to supercede his love for the mother.
Which I would say wouldn't be love at all then...it's something else.
And that in a nutshell is why I don't like this theory.

If you want to bring Harry's glasses slipping down up as a clue to something in Snape's character, why not look at it from another direction?

I have always seen this scene as a confrontation of Snape with himself and his capacity to do violence. We know as a former DE that he has a history of violent acts which he regrets (according to DD). Perhaps he is taken aback by the reflection in the afore-mentioned glasses of a hook-nosed man about to perpetrate a violent act on a weaker/relatively helpless victim?

Hmm... Maybe he sees himself about to follow the footsteps of the hook-nosed man who terrorized his childhood.

Either way, I agree about there being little to no solid evidence for the Snape/Lily shipping. I personally feel that Snape probably respected Lily as an intelligent school-mate, but little more. She probably had more significance to him as someone with the bad taste to date James Potter than the amazing girl who rejected him... He probably would feel she was betraying her own good sense rather than betraying his love for her.

There are many suppositions in the "evidence" cited so far that leaves me unconvinced about how that evidence is interpreted.

But, like others posting in the thread, JKR has pulled more than one W T F ! on me. ;)

Okay I have to put in my two cents on this one too.

I have to say all of ya'll have good points both for an against the whole Snape/Lilly ship. Personally I have never been a big fan of the ship and seem to be on the "they were friends" (as Harry and Hermione are) side of things.

I do think that JKR is probably going the Snape/Lilly ship way just based on it is kinda the easy way to do it. She was liked by lots of guys at the school and I see her as kinda like Ginny. ( I belive even JKR said she was a lot like Ginny) Think about it Ginny has had a thing for Harry for a long time but she moved on and started dateing other people, at least a couple of guys. So I kinda see Snape as a Dean Thomas in the relationship boat. I think Snape was just one of the guys she snogged before she finally got back to James.

Now this view just puts Lilly in a bad light and I really don't think she was that mean. So I really don't by it either.

I also still think Snape really "romantically loved" someone but it wasn't Lilly.

As sated before I am probably wrong and agian it is all speculation. Can't wait to see how right or wrong we all are! :)

If Snape is going to do something heroic, I want it to be because he sorted out right and wrong on a personal level, not because of an old flame.

(Also, if Lily returned from the grave to see him now, she would blast him to smithereens for her son's sake.)

If Snape is going to do something heroic, I want it to be because he sorted out right and wrong on a personal level, not because of an old flame.

(Also, if Lily returned from the grave to see him now, she would blast him to smithereens for her son's sake.)

Good point.

I really see the Snape/Lily theory as one of those "be careful what you wish for" theories...i especially in light of Slughorn and his "obsessive love" comments. :huh:

If Snape is going to do something heroic, I want it to be because he sorted out right and wrong on a personal level, not because of an old flame.

(Also, if Lily returned from the grave to see him now, she would blast him to smithereens for her son's sake.)

This is why I think Snape's Boggart is Lily alive again.

Snape prbably did love Lily another reason he probably hated James althought there are numerous rasons he hated James.....

(Also, if Lily returned from the grave to see him now, she would blast him to smithereens for her son's sake.)

Let's keep this away from Snape bashing. This is the Hero thread remember.

If Snape is going to do something heroic, I want it to be because he sorted out right and wrong on a personal level, not because of an old flame.


I think Snape realizes what's right and wrong. I think Lily was a motivating factor for Snape to change especially when Voldemort chose her son,therefore putting her in danger. This was probably a wake up call. I think doing something heroic out of love for someone is not a bad thing though. It is the power the dark lord knows not.


What I want to know is why did Snape become a death eater in the first place?

I think Snape realizes what's right and wrong. I think Lily was a motivating factor for Snape to change especially when Voldemort chose her son,therefore putting her in danger. This was probably a wake up call. I think doing something heroic out of love for someone is not a bad thing though. It is the power the dark lord knows not.

Absolutely! :tu:

Also, very few of the characters in the series make moral decisions which are entirely uninfluenced by who their friends and loved ones are. Ron must find it far easier to follow the right path than Draco because of who his parents are and what his upbringing has been. Does that make his deeds any less heroic or valuable?

What I want to know is why did Snape become a death eater in the first place?

Oooh, good question!

I think insecurity about being a half-blood could actually be enough to explain it (particularly if his mother had been criticised by her pure-blood family for marrying "out"), in the same way that some of the most outspoken homophobes in life are people unsure of their own sexuality who turn to violent prejudice to "prove" they're "normal" (like the guy in American Beauty), and some of Hitler's most vociferous supporters were trying to suppress their own Jewish roots.

I know that revenge for rejection by Lily is a tempting explanation for those of us sold on the Snape/Lily theory, though. Is there any evidence for that?

Absolutely! :tu:

Thanks Melaszka. :)



Also, very few of the characters in the series make moral decisions which are entirely uninfluenced by who their friends and loved ones are. Ron must find it far easier to follow the right path than Draco because of who his parents are and what his upbringing has been. Does that make his deeds any less heroic or valuable?

Exactly. Love is the central theme in this series also being a contributing factor in people's choices.




I think insecurity about being a half-blood could actually be enough to explain it (particularly if his mother had been criticised by her pure-blood family for marrying "out"), in the same way that some of the most outspoken homophobes in life are people unsure of their own sexuality who turn to violent prejudice to "prove" they're "normal" (like the guy in American Beauty), and some of Hitler's most vociferous supporters were trying to suppress their own Jewish roots.

I think insecurity could have played a role too. I have always thought that acceptance played a big role. Snape may have went where he felt he would be appreciated.


I know that revenge for rejection by Lily is a tempting explanation for those of us sold on the Snape/Lily theory, though. Is there any evidence for that?

I have always thought that Lily marrying James was a huge factor. If we believe that Snape loved Lily which I believe there are lot of clues for,than I think that heartache can contribute to Snape's decision to join the death eaters. Love for Lily helped to bring him back to the right side while lack of love,rejection drove him to make the wrong choices.

Altho' I think Snape's 'love' for Lily was more of a love for a friend, it MIGHT be telling that we only have canon that Snape was a DE by June'79. Considering Harry was concieved in OCt'79, there IS the possibility that the Potters married in 1979 - no actual clue to it yet and it would be a few years after leaving Hogwarts, but it's a MAYBE.

I've stated MY tin-foil-hat theory about a dead wife for Snape, but I'd just like to point out that as far as canon goes (so far) he probably did not join up as soon as he finished Hogwarts. He seems to have finished Hogwarts sometime between '76 to '78 (unclear exactly when based on conflicting info).

I think JKR has actually been careful to NOT let us know exactly when Snape went to school (and finished) because she wanted to leave the impression that he was a JrDE at school (like apparently the Marauders thought) and IF he didn't join up straight away, it would conflict with this impression.

However, I think Albus' comments (twice) about Snape's return to the 'light' imply that he was not actually 'dark' at Hogwarts (and soon afterwards), that the Marauders were just wrong about that.

If you think on it, the best reason for Voldy to assign spying on Albus TO Snape would be because Albus would not immediately distrust him. Because he was a half-blood and because he probably had a year or three where he was working in some either neutral position or some job that might be considered 'good' (perhaps healer?). Voldy was quite aware just how insightful Albus could be about someone - he had experienced it himself. And I can't believe Voldy would have waited until '79 to try to get a spy close to Albus IF he had someone who could succeed in doing so earlier.

I actually think (somewhat specualtive) that Snape had trouble getting work after Hogwarts - I think the Marauders' opinion of him followed him. That he was famous for the 'dark' (whether he was actually dark or not) or possibly even that by that time in the war all Slytherins might have had trouble with prejudice. And so, I think he finally broke down and owled Lucius to network - picking up on an old association - looking for work, but getting lured into the DEs.

We need to remember that not all people asked to join necessarily joined with their eyes open. We've been told that Regulus (who probably joined about June'79 as well) didn't really realize what he was getting into, so I think the same could be true for Snape.

Fantastic, insightful post, hwyla. Loads of interesting ideas that had never occurred to me before.

I think JKR has actually been careful to NOT let us know exactly when Snape went to school (and finished) because she wanted to leave the impression that he was a JrDE at school (like apparently the Marauders thought) and IF he didn't join up straight away, it would conflict with this impression.

However, I think Albus' comments (twice) about Snape's return to the 'light' imply that he was not actually 'dark' at Hogwarts (and soon afterwards), that the Marauders were just wrong about that.

I'd never though about JKR's mechanics like this, but that really makes sense.

I've always taken Sirius's and Lupin's accusations of young Snape being "Dark" with a pinch of salt - partly because in creating her best red herrings JKR frequently uses the device of an unreliable narrative voice whom we trust, rightly thinking their honesty is unimpeachable, but who turns out to be sincerely mistaken, but also because I noticed how frequently Snape suggests that the Marauders were "Dark" - from his assertion in PoA that the Marauders' Map is "full of Dark magic" to his apparently sincere belief that Sirius is a Death Eater. It strikes me as being a consummate irony if both the Marauders and Snape constantly attacked and distrusted each other at school under the sincerely held delusion that they were striking a blow for good against the Dark forces.

Fantastic, insightful post, hwyla. Loads of interesting ideas that had never occurred to me before.



I'd never though about JKR's mechanics like this, but that really makes sense.

I've always taken Sirius's and Lupin's accusations of young Snape being "Dark" with a pinch of salt - partly because in creating her best red herrings JKR frequently uses the device of an unreliable narrative voice whom we trust, rightly thinking their honesty is unimpeachable, but who turns out to be sincerely mistaken, but also because I noticed how frequently Snape suggests that the Marauders were "Dark" - from his assertion in PoA that the Marauders' Map is "full of Dark magic" to his apparently sincere belief that Sirius is a Death Eater. It strikes me as being a consummate irony if both the Marauders and Snape constantly attacked and distrusted each other at school under the sincerely held delusion that they were striking a blow for good against the Dark forces.

The difference, though, is that the Marauders didn't go about inventing spells that could cut people up. To me, the Sectumsempra spell is proof that Snape was in fact studying and practicing the Dark Arts while at school. Most of the Half Blood Prince's spells that we've seen have been not very Dark, most of them qualify as "hexes" or "jinxes" according to JKR's definition. A "hex" or "jinx" is a spell that has annoying but amusing (at least, to the person casting it) after effects - ie. making someone's toenails grow extra long, hanging people upside down in the air by the ankle, gluing the tongue to the roof of the mouth, etc. A "curse" is the worst kind of Dark Magic - Sectumsempra definitely qualifies. All these were spells Snape invented.

(Thinking about it, I'm surprised he invented the Muffliato spell as well - this is a spell you use if you don't want to be overheard. Why would Snape not want to be overheard?)

Snape thought Sirius was a Death Eater in PoA because everyone else did. The only people who knew Sirius was innocent were Sirius himself and Peter disguised as Scabbers. Dumbledore thought Sirius was guilty, Lupin thought he was guilty, everyone did. Snape just took a bit longer to convince than Lupin and Dumbledore - for obvious reasons.

Another question: why didn't Snape recognize the Marauder's Map when he confiscated it in PoA? He might not have recognized the Map, but he surely could have recognized the nicknames...having heard the Marauders call each other that in his worst memory.

The difference, though, is that the Marauders didn't go about inventing spells that could cut people up. To me, the Sectumsempra spell is proof that Snape was in fact studying and practicing the Dark Arts while at school.

Sure, and he himself acknowledges that it's very Dark when he confronts Harry in the bathroom after he's used it on Draco. But this is the one Dark spell we know he knew, and it comes very late in the textbook (which seems to have been annotated chronologically - Harry talks of the "increasing nastiness" of the spells, suggesting it's owner was gradually lured towards Darkness), which tends to throw some doubt on the Marauders' assertion that he was up to his eyes in dark arts from the moment he set foot in the school. I think that APM suggests that he turned to the dark arts late in his school career, in response to the same stimuli which pushed him towards the DE.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised he invented the Muffliato spell as well - this is a spell you use if you don't want to be overheard. Why would Snape not want to be overheard?)

More importantly, with whom were these conversations that he didn't want overheard? It suggests he had at least one close friend, despite the loner portrayal in SWM, and it's tempting to speculate about a connection with that other major character whose close friends are mysteriously never discussed - Lily Evans. But iIknow there's no hard evidence here.

Snape thought Sirius was a Death Eater in PoA because everyone else did. The only people who knew Sirius was innocent were Sirius himself and Peter disguised as Scabbers. Dumbledore thought Sirius was guilty, Lupin thought he was guilty, everyone did. Snape just took a bit longer to convince than Lupin and Dumbledore - for obvious reasons.

Are they obvious, though? The extreme lack of emotional control Snape shows in the Shrieking Shack when confronting Sirius is one of the things that most convinced me of his love for Lily. I think the "vengeance" he talks of as being "sweet" is vengeance not for childhood bullying but for Lily's murder - at that point he sincerely believes that Sirius betrayed her.

And he doesn't trust Lupin, either. His repeated attempts to persuade DD he's wrong to trust Lupin are highly reminsicent of Harry's repeated attempts to persuade DD that he's wrong to trust Snape. this is another thing which make sem wonder if Snape had always suspected the Marauders of Dark Arts and, like Sirius, can't quite get over his old prejudice, even though DD has told him time and time again that he's wrong.

Another question: why didn't Snape recognize the Marauder's Map when he confiscated it in PoA? He might not have recognized the Map, but he surely could have recognized the nicknames...having heard the Marauders call each other that in his worst memory.

I've always assumed that he knew perfectly well who the names referred to and there's some kind of subtextual thing going on betwen him and Lupin.

The difference, though, is that the Marauders didn't go about inventing spells that could cut people up. To me, the Sectumsempra spell is proof that Snape was in fact studying and practicing the Dark Arts while at school.

I wonder when he invented or learned the chanted spell that can be used to heal the effects of the Sectumsempra curse. (The one he used on Draco in HBP after Harry Sectumsempra'd him).

(Thinking about it, I'm surprised he invented the Muffliato spell as well - this is a spell you use if you don't want to be overheard. Why would Snape not want to be overheard?)
It has been suggested on the now-taboo Snape/Lily threads that this would allow him to chat with Lily in the library or in class without them being overheard. ;)

Another question: why didn't Snape recognize the Marauder's Map when he confiscated it in PoA? He might not have recognized the Map, but he surely could have recognized the nicknames...having heard the Marauders call each other that in his worst memory.

Surely, he recognized not only the nicknames, but the style of insult. I think this is why he called Lupin to him when he found the Map. It was certainly not because he felt himself lacking in sufficient expertise in the Dark Arts!

Hereis the scene:

"You called, Severus?" said Lupin mildly.

"I certainly did," said Snape, his face contorted with fury as he strode back to his desk. "I have just asked Potter to empty his pockets. He was carrying this."

Snape pointed at the parchment, on which the words of Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were still shining. An odd, closed expression appeared on Lupin's face.

"Well?" said Snape.

Lupin continued to stare at the map. Harry had the impression that Lupin was doing some very quick thinking

"Well?" said Snape again. "This parchment is plainly full of Dark Magic. This is supposed to be your area of expertise, Lupin. Where do you imagine Potter got such a thing?"

Lupin looked up and, by the merest half-glance in Harry's direction, warned him not to interrupt.

"Full of Dark Magic?" he repeated mildly. "Do you really think so, Severus? It looks to me as though it is merely a piece of parchment that insults anybody who reads it. Childish, but surely not dangerous? I imagine Harry got it from a joke shop --"

"Indeed?" said Snape. His jaw had gone rigid with anger. "You think a joke shop could supply him with such a thing? You don't think it more likely that he got it directly from the manufacturers?"


In Snape's last line, he has gotten angry at Lupin. Why? I think, because he knows Mr. Moony is lying to him. (Also, perhaps, because Mr. Moony, in so doing, is clearly indicating a lack of respect for Snape's intelligence...) And I think the line 'directly from the manufacturers' is an indication that Snape knows exactly who made it.

Yes, I agree that Snape knew who Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Moony were. I think he just wanted to wait for a chance to expose Lupin as a werewolf, and that's why he didn't turn him in right then and there. But he would never have done it if he didn't have an excuse: in this case, Lupin getting away with helping Sirius escape.

Snape really was honorable and professional when Lupin was teaching.

I like the idea of the Muffliato spell being used for secret conversations with Lily. And that is a good question: Snape certainly is a knowledgable Healer, as he proves in HBP when he heals Katie and Draco. Where DID he learn this? How did he figure out the counter-curse for the curse he invented himself? I hope he didn't test Sectumsempra on himself...

And that is a good question: Snape certainly is a knowledgable Healer, as he proves in HBP when he heals Katie and Draco. Where DID he learn this? How did he figure out the counter-curse for the curse he invented himself? I hope he didn't test Sectumsempra on himself...

Does it state in canon that Snape invented Sectumsempra? I thought that the entry in the HBP's book merely said, "For enemies." No crossing out or more details, like for the others spells. I wonder if he did invent it, or learned of it and wrote it down.