Magical Surveillance System?

[pasmosa]

How does the Ministry of Magic keep track of who is doing magic where? We know that they knew when magic was done at the Dursley's house - Harry was sent a warning about Dobby's magic, and then the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad was sent when Harry blew up Aunt Marge. They must have some method of keeping track of when and where magic is used by unauthorized people. Any ideas on how that could work? Also, if they have this magical surveillance system, why don't they notice when Hagrid does magic? We know that after his wand was snapped he had to get special permission from Dumbledore to use magic. He broke that rule lots of times (think pumpkin patch and piggy tail.) Anyone have some ideas?

[black&potter]

What i want to know is if they can detect the use of magic. Why don't they know when Voldemort Tortures or kills someone??????

[lanifiel]

To the Common Room...

[Maiden_of_Rohan]

I think that they probably keep an eye on the students living in the Muggle world to be sure that they don't expose the Wizarding world. How they do it is a whole other story, and as to that, I have no idea.

[pasmosa]

I agree that it is definitely to keep muggles from noticing the magical world. I mean, kids frequently don't have a whole lot of common sense - even if they can do a spell correctly.

Remember how Dumbledore created an age line around the Goblet of Fire at the start of the Tri-Wizard Tournament? Maybe it is a similar kind of magic - whenever someone under 18 does magic, it triggers some kind of alarm.

That would explain why they can't use it to track Voldemort.

[Pucko]

Well they know where the students are to send them their Hogwarts letters...so there is probably some similar charm to see if underage people do magic...
uumm..pasmosa...do you think Dobby is under 18?

but when Harry got that warning about Dobby's magic, it just said that somebody did magic in their house...would Ron get a warning is his mum did magic? no...so why did Harry get one when he didn't do magic? and how can they know if Ron does magic and not his older brothers or someone, if they don't know if Harry or a house-elf does magic????
i confused myself :??: darn...

[Sherlock Holmes]

Laws don't always (usually) get applied completely fairly. In the Muggle world, lots of people speed, but only some get stopped and fined.

It appears that Harry is under special protection and/or surveillance at the Dursley's. How, exactly, we don't know...might find out in a few days. But if so, then magic happening there would be quickly noticed, while if Ron or Ginny did magic at the Burrow, it might still be illegal but not noticed and thus not punished.

[pasmosa]

I had always assumed that Dobby's charm was intentionally done to make it look like it was the work of Harry. Like when I used to try to get my little sister in trouble for stuff I did.

:angel:

Sherlock Holmes is probably right that the laws are enforced only when people are caught, and that Harry is under special observation.

I was just remembering the Marauders Map . . . Prongs and the gang probably did not invent the spells for that on their own. Maybe there is a Globe Sized Map that tracks kids in Hopkirk's office.

[Crystal]

Good point with the map thing, yeah you could be right. Maby it is only kids from muggle backgrounds who get tracked since kids in the wizarding world are in houses were there is a high level of magic going on!

[harp230]

I was just rereading GOF and I always thought that Harry was just under special survalience at the Dursley's but there is a hole in that . Wouldn't there be attention given to anyone who illegally uses magic there not just Harry, but the Weasley twins did not get in trouble for the ton-tounge toffee. Could it be "picking" on Harry? MOM is so inconsistent it is just hard to tell....

[darkshadow629]

<DIV>Well, i mean in Ootp when he used the patronus charm to chase away the dementors the ministry knew only a few moments later.But how do they get to know this so fast?? i found this on http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.net/facts.shtml

Has Harry ever used the Internet?
No. He's not allowed near Dudley's computer and Dudley's the only one who's got a computer. He gets beaten up if he goes too near the keyboard. So no, he's never used the Internet. I use it a lot, but not Harry. Wizards don't really need to use the Internet but that's something that you'll find out later on in the series. They have a means of finding out what goes on in the outside world that I think is more fun than the Internet. Could anything be more fun than the Internet? Yes! -J.K. Rowling
So you see they do have a way to know but how?

[Hammi]

Somewhere it was said (maybe 5? cant remember) the ministry has its own ways to detect underage magic. Maybe its something like the way it detects magical births. But, besides JK who can really be that sure.

[_BT_]

Somewhere it was said (maybe 5? cant remember) the ministry has its own ways to detect underage magic. Maybe its something like the way it detects magical births. But, besides JK who can really be that sure.

that's exactly what i was thinking. i think the ministry uses some sort of magical artifact similar to the aforementioned quill at hogwarts that detects magical births.

[Light Elven Mage]

Spies maybe? I think that like the others said it is more likely to be some sort of magical object that alerts them... I like the idea of something like the Marauder's map, but for magic... Or maybe there is some sort of invisible network? However they do it, I almost find it more amazing at the speed of the owls getting there than the fact that the ministry is aware so fast. How in the world could an owl fly from the Ministry to number Four that fast? Maybe the letter is a Portkey? The owl touches it and zoom... It is in the Dursley's living room? Okay, I just led myself way off track. Sorry.

[chocolate_roses00]

Interestin I dont think it would be spies cause why would you need spies when magic can do everything for you.
Maybe every wand in ollivanders has a spell or somthing and the ministry get alerted everytime someone does magic for their wand??

[Magi]

But then how did the Ministry know about Dobby's hover charm? Or Aunt Marge?

Perhaps whenever a magical birth occurs, Ministry wizards put a time-limited charm on the baby so that if he/she does magic before the age of 17, it alerts the Ministry?

[shanobyl]

come to think of it... could it be mrs figgs who have been retting on harry? maybe she has some 'device' in her house that detects it and automatically sends it to MoM. i know she was on harry's side during the dementors' incident, but.. if it automatically senses things.. not much can be done could it?

[humongoratdropping]

No. The ministry didn't even acknowledge her existence at the Hearing in Ootp

[Luna Lovegood]

I think there are ways of knowing stuff like that in the wizarding world that we don't know about yet - like maybe some sort of huge spell. Could that have anything to do with the brain room?

[MotherBear1975]

Easy. They sensed the magic going off (I'm imagining a map w/pinpoints or some such of all wizarding families, like in the old movie "Wargames") and Harry is the only wizard registered as living in the area. He's underage, so they nail him. Not fair, because it could be any wizard/witch passing thru, put if the system were any more specific he never would have been blamed for the pudding thing. Ron and Ginny could probably get away w/it because they live w/adult magic users, it wouldn't automatically be pinned on them.

[A_Reck]

What I want to know is how come Harry was allowed to do under-age magic until he found out he was a wizard?

[Luna Lovegood]

Good point... hmm. Maybe because they only keep track of people who go to Hogwarts or another wizarding school?

[Mouthn of Merlin]

Heres a weird theory. Maybe when they detect underaged magic, they use the time turner to send an owl. The owl is sent back in time, so it will arrive right after the magic done.

[MotherBear1975]

What I want to know is how come Harry was allowed to do under-age magic until he found out he was a wizard?

Before Harry knew, they knew he didn't know, and they didn't want him to know, so as long as the muggles came up w/rational explinations and/or the magic was not very major, they let it slide. Knowing that Harry didn't know, they knew that any magic he did would be from a loss of emotional control rather than a delibrate act.

[turbotriple_power]

Yes, but what about with Dobby or aunt Marge how
comes they didn't know that it was Dobby that did the magic and that Harry didn't blow up his aunt on purpose?

[MotherBear1975]

A "Hover Charm" isn't likely to be used on accident, and besides, this is after Harry Knows. With the Aunt Marge thing, they were more concerned w/Harry being killed by Sirus than the magic.

[turbotriple_power]

Yes, but the Hover charm was used by Dobby not Harry!

[MotherBear1975]

But Harry was the only "registered" wizard in the area, so they blamed it on him.

[turbotriple_power]

Yah, i suppose so... But when Dobby went to warn Harry didn't the Malefoy's realise that their house elf wasn't there?
Or unless they thaught that he was in the attic or something...

[Weatherby]

I've moved the magical surveillance thread to book 5 and merged the thread on how the ministry discovers under-age magic to it. :)

I think they are just keeping a close eye on Harry when they found out about Dobby.
As for the patronus I think Umbridge or a spy was nearby as she sent the Dementors there to kill him. So she knew he cast a spell. I may be a bit too paranoid though. ;)

[rayrayjohanna]

I don't think it has ever been explained in any way how the Ministry of Magic
knows about underage wizard use of magic. Even magic families have the
restriction, remember Fred and George hoping that they wouldn't get the notice
at the end of the school year about not using magic.

This all knowing ability of the Ministry of Magic is a bit scary. Sort of like when
little kids get worried that Santa Claus 'knows when you've been bad or good".
I hope JK decides to clue us in as to the mechanics of this spy system.

[FredRocksMySocks]

It's....magic! ;)

No, they probably do have some sort of magical alert system and department that keeps tabs on who's doing magic infront of muggles, and whether magic was being performed without a...license, per se.

What bothers me, is that if they know what sort of magic is going on and who's doing what spells in front of whom, why can't they catch Voldie and DE's, esp. when they do things infront of (or to) muggles if that stuff is detected.....

[iheartdraco]

in the quidditch world cup how come ron and hermione can use lumos and not get a warning for underage magic? is it just because they were in danger and in OotP harry got a warning because fudge didnt believe voldemort was back therfore the dementors werent there......... im rather confused.....

o yea, sorry if theres already a thread like this. i did a search........

[MadMagic]

I think the ministry was much more concerned about the Death Eaters running around. It was quite chaotic at the time. I doubt anyone was ever even aware that she had used magic.

[iheartdraco]

good point MadMagic. i guess im just making a deal put of nothing... just seemed odd to me......

[giantsquid28]

Harry didn't get in trouble for using lumos in the ally. It is kinda a nothing spell... of course he did get in trouble when Dobby smashed that pudding. With the QWC, that was a wizard area- kinda like Hogsmead, where they can use magic.

[Drusilla]

You're right:the reason they could get away with it was probably that there was simply no way the Ministry could've monitored an area buzzing with magic anyway-remember,they stopped fighting the signs of obvious magic at the campsite pretty early on,despite the presence of a Muggle camp manager who needed a Memory Charm 10 times a day to keep him happy.

[Dedalus]

It might also be considered as using a magical item, rather than using magic itself, which is technically alright (Harry has recieved magical birthday presents and they've been fine) because it's using the wand as a torch rather than using magic passing through the torch and out on to something else.

[Furienna]

I think it was because there was so much magic around anway. When Harry gets warnings, they have only "received intelligense that a spell is conjured in your area". I mean, they could't tell if it was Harry or a house elf who did that charm. And anyway, Lumos doesn't really do anything. Then I think it is stranger that Lily got away with foing magic at home when she was at Hogwarts.

[Carolynb87]

I think it also had to do with the fact that there weren't any muggles in the woods where they performed the spell. Actually, the only muggles in the area were floating in the air, so their use of magic was nothing compared to those attakcing the muggles. The area only had wizards around so I think it was okay under the circumstances. Normally I think they might have been punished but in this case it was overlooked as it didn't cause any problems and no muggles witnessed it.

[firebolt2000]

MadMagic brings up a good point, the Ministry was more concerned with all the Death Eaters wandering around than some kids using their wands to make some light. Anyway, Lumos isn't really that big of a spell. I guess the Ministry gets mad if a kid uses bigger, more important spells than Lumos.

[GryffindorSeeker]

I think that Lumos is one of those spells that can easily be mistaked for something completely ordinary. Harry lighting his wand is like turning on a flashlight or torch. I don't think that the difference can be told very easily.

[Navy Blues]

Actually, this thread makes me think - what does the MoM know about people using magic? Harry gets warnings for using spells while underage - that we know. Most people seem to have understood that as meaning that the MoM can detect the use of particular spells anywhere, anytime. I don't think that's true. I get the feeling (and its not based on anything more than that), that the MoM just monitors Privet Drive that way. A couple of things affect this. Firstly, the ability to detect any magic, anytime would give the Ministry a great deal of knoweldge and power, and the Ministry dosen't seem that clued-in. Secondly, there are quite obvious reasons why the Ministry (as well as Dumbledore) would want to know if magic had been performed around Harry Potter, so you can understand why the area was monitored. Thirdly, the Weasley's all seem to have used magic from a young age, and the use of magic from a young age is pretty well accepted. Presumably, therefore, the Hogwarts prohibition on underage magic is a law to have, to discourage irresponsible student magic use and to use when you want to, rather than to omnipresently enforce.

[Auror Williamson]

Remember, the magic that was performed by the trio on the night of the Death Eater attack was considered minor magic in the eyes of the Ministry. With the huge situation of hundreds of people dying because of a few rowdy Death Eaters making a ruckus.

It's plain and simple that this was a life-and-death situation, where their lives could have depended on the light from the wand to guide them on their fleeing path.

[aiko amaya]

Really I don't think they can tell who exactly casted what which is why Harrykeeps on getting busted, but I'm sure the weasley kids perform magic with out their parents noticing and not get caught because it is a wizard home and magic goes on there.

[rotsiepots]

For some reason I always assumed that Lumos was an "inbuilt feature" of wands. It's not a spell, as such (because you can't use it to light up anything except your wand, or so it seems), it's more of a function that your wand performs.

Either way, the Ministry obviously doesn't classify it as serious magic deserving of a warning from their Underage Use of Magic department.

[Weatherby]

I think they only keep a serious eye out on under-age wizards living in muggle districts.
They never catch Hagrid using magic either. He gave Dudley a tail but it was on the hut on the rock which was unwatched so noone found out.

I have a sneaking suspicion they keep a closer watch on Harry than anyone else. The MoM doesn't want to "favour" him.

They were rather preoccupied to care about the Quidditch World Cup than to watch under-age wizards. Besides, it was a holiday so they were probably more relaxed about letting the kids have fun.

[aiko amaya]

They never catch Hagrid using magic either. He gave Dudley a tail but it was on the hut on the rock which was unwatched so noone found out.

Wasn't Hagrid allowed to use magic to get harry? So they figured they didn't need to watch him.

[Weatherby]

Dumbledore gave him permission but he still asked Harry not to tell anyone so officially he wasn't allowed.

[aiko amaya]

But the ministry wouldn't be watching because Hagrid was out on a mission so they weren't watching him. Even though he was not supposed to after he found harry. Unless of caurse I am terribly mistaken, But I cannot check, my grandpa is still borrowing my books.

[Weatherby]

He wasn't on MoM business. I doubt the two were connected. He wasn't supposed to use his wand inside his umbrella and they would've snatched it away as soon as this business was over had they known and approved.

No, I think they only have watch on places they know the unlawful magic could take place such as a wizard's home.
I think the Burrow wouldn't be watched because they'd trust The Weasleys to make sure their kids didn't perform magic.

[aiko amaya]

I think the Burrow wouldn't be watched because they'd trust The Weasleys to make sure their kids didn't perform magic.
I don't think they trust the Weasleys really. I mean withj Fudge and All. I think it's more that theres always magic going on and it's impossible for them to tell who cast what. Like when dobby casted the hover spell all they said was that "the hover charm was used" or something like that if they really could detect who cast the spell then they would have known it wasn't harry.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I think the Burrow wouldn't be watched because they'd trust The Weasleys to make sure their kids didn't perform magic.
I don't know if trust is the right word, but I agree that they wouldn't watch the Burrow. Maybe it's essentially impossible in their surveillance system to make the distinction between underage and non-underage magic?

[Weatherby]

I think they'd trust the Weasleys to prevent their kids from doing under-age magic. They did raise two head boys didn't they? They must trust them because Fred and George are more likely to cast spells than Harry.

The trust problems has more to deal with muggle protection and Dumbledore.

But it's true they probably couldn't tell who was casting magic.

Maybe hesdead.
Hagrid put engorgement charms on the pumpkins because noone is watching him. As long as he isn't caught red-handed whose going to know he's still doing magic?

I think Harry could be a special case.
Or rather under-age muggle-born wizards are considered a security issue. They didn't have to tell their parents they weren't allowed and there's the secrecy problem.
They may have had good reason if young wizards like Lily were tormenting their younger siblings.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I think they'd trust the Weasleys to prevent their kids from doing under-age magic. They did raise two head boys didn't they? They must trust them because Fred and George are more likely to cast spells than Harry.
That's possible, but I have a feeling that any child in a wizarding family could pretty much get away with it. I don't think it's only the Weasleys.

Here's a thought: maybe they "turn off" the surveillance system for families of Ministry employees?

[Weatherby]

That's possible, but I have a feeling that any child in a wizarding family could pretty much get away with it. I don't think it's only the Weasleys.

Here's a thought: maybe they "turn off" the surveillance system for families of Ministry employees?

I think you're right. The children from wizarding families have so many advantages over the muggle-born kids.

Ahh that's possible they do. It would be just like the kids of regular political folk. Fudge did let it slide in PoA because he considered it a special cirumstance. I'm sure he'd be willing to do that to protect any of his employees from being embarassed too.
Fred and George were never expelled..

[iheartdraco]

it would make sense if they only keep watch on muggle born kids and harry. they have a bigger chance of doing magic in front of muggles than the wizarding families.... and it would make sense to keep a tab on harry incase voldemort turns up or something like someone said before...

[Zachary1993]

That is a good point they can just find him easily then.

[gig103]

Actually, thanks for the bump this is a great topic which I wouldn't have found since it's been a few months! :tu:

My take is that it is more like a charm on muggle areas. If magic goes off in a muggle area, they need to be ready at a moment's notice to send an Oblivator squad (and sometimes the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad too). As said earlier, a wizard child might get away with it if of-age wizards are around. But in Harry's case, as the only magical person on Privet Drive, they know it was him.

Lumos: I agree that it isn't a big deal to the squad. But I like the idea that it is a built-in feature of the wand, not the wizard :)