Those Arrogant Potter Boys

[Loz]

There's something to be said for JKR, she doesn't write things as black and white, or green and gold as the case may be. James Potter, at age 15, was shown as a highly dislikeable character. He was vain, conceited, basically a real nark, and even Harry was disillusioned (no pun intended ;)) by his father's behaviour.

Now I would never go as far as to say Harry is as cruel as James obviously was at that time, but then, James might not have been if he had been through what Harry has. And the dear lad obviously reformed. But wasn't it interesting to see a great deal of Harry's recklessness, unwillingness to accept the way he was being treated, and downright stubborness in James?

One of the reasons Harry was so disgusted by what he saw in Snape's memory in the pensieve, I am sure, was that he could see the not-so-desirable similarities between himself and his father. A certain arrogance that was shockingly close to home. I say this because at the beginning of the book, was not Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself that he was better than his friends, that he had seen more, that they could never understand? What do you guys think? Am I wrong?

[Kosmic]

Also that everyone always tells him how much like James he is, which until now Harry always thought as a good thing.
However James and Sirius were not unlike a lot of 15 year old boys. I think it wasn;t so much of a shock that Sirius was like this but Harry expected his dad not to be as bad

[lex romero]

i suppose it really shattered his dream off his dad being whiter then white and snape being the evil one all the time. however i can understand his frustration at the start especially his jealousy of ron being made prefect rather than harry. and to be honest he has done more than ron and hermione. yes it did cause him to think he was better than them but he soon got over it.

[dumbleedore]

The way people have portrayed James to Harry have always given him a halo just about. Dumbledore, Hagrid, Sirius, Lupin. McGonagall- they all loved James.

Whereas Snape didn't love him. And Harry got the truth from Snape, even if it might have been biased in some way by Snape's feelings towards James. You can make your memory remember something worse that it was, although not to sure if it'd fool a penseive...

[Morgoth]

Well, Harry only ever really knew his adult father from the stories and pictures, people telling him what a great guy he was. Of course, it was the exact opposite when he went into Snape's memory and saw what James was like. I think that was healthy for Harry to see that, gives him a rounder picture of his father, and shows that even the best have bad points about them.

[mystically_mad]

I feel terrible, I actually disliked James for awhile, even Sirius. Of course I got over it. I dont think Harry would be as cruel as James was in the memory.

[Shadowfire76]

I agree I think maybe Harry was shocked by what he saw because maybe he did see some of his father in himself.

[jmk623]

Well Harry had been hearing how great his father was. From McGonagall, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Lupin and Sirius. He was proud whenever he heard that he was like his father. He probably idolized James. He, (well all of us) thought that Snape was this jealous guy after his father.
But all of those things he had believed in his father had crashed down. To Harry, James was looking awfully like Malfoy (always picking on Neville, Ron's being poor and etc) James was every bit arrogant in that memory as Snape said.
It was the shock of seeing his saint father as the arrogant bully.

But there should be more about this. James did probably reformed and got together with Lily, and saved Snape from Werewolf Lupin in their next year.

[Lestrange]

Originally posted by mystically_mad (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=387735#post387735))
I feel terrible, I actually disliked James for awhile, even Sirius. Of course I got over it. I dont think Harry would be as cruel as James was in the memory.


I tried to find out reasons why he would ever do something so cruel....

Harry must have seen some of himself in James to be as disturbed as he was by it....Oh, and also, Harry never thought that he would ever feel sorry for Snape....That probably really scared him, to feel injustice towards James for Snape.

[ArabellaBlack]

I think it was a big shock to all of us as well, especially anybody who's ever read a marauder's fic. I'm kind of glad J.K. finally gave James a personality, because he was just kind of blank and good before. I didn't think of it as I was reading it, but it must have been terrible for Snape to admit that his life had been saved by a real @#$&@!*. It didn't really change my view of the other three, though, I'd always kind of pictured them like that.

Signature that I have to type because I can't have it as a signature
~And I'll see Sirius again
I weep, for Padfoot will never return

[emikkime]

I was really surprised by the arrogant and annoying James Potter. I was much more surprised though, by the fact that Snape was telling the truth. Sorry did I say Snape? I meant Snivellus;)

One last question...Who thinks that James did pull off Snape's underpants?

[Marcy]

Hmm.

Were forgetting ourselves a bit aren't we.

Were assuming that James attacked Snape for the reason that he told Lily he did. "because he exists."

But think of the secrets that this group was hiding...Snape could have actually done something to SERIOSLY deserve the treatment that he recieved from James and Sirius...but they wouldn't have spouted that out to Lily now would they?

[Cat]

Originally posted by Lestrange (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388209#post388209))
I tried to find out reasons why he would ever do something so cruel....

Harry must have seen some of himself in James to be as disturbed as he was by it....Oh, and also, Harry never thought that he would ever feel sorry for Snape....That probably really scared him, to feel injustice towards James for Snape.


No, I think that Harry was so disturbed because he never expected it. Who would expect you father to have done something like that??

But the reason why they was so cruel was answered by Lupin and Sirius. 'Because they were fifteen'. It doesn't excuse them, but it explains them fully.

[just_clara]

yah guys/ James is an arrogant teenager. Too cool for everyone. I know people like this. It's an act. A horrible terrible act. But what we and harry have to remember is that in the end, James did draw the line, and kept Snape out of "the prank." He didn't let Sirius kill him.

[Loz]

"Because he exists" not the only reason - Marcy - good point. We all have to remember this is the 15 yr old Marauders... they've been going to school for 4 years with Snape... so the attack may not be as 'unwarranted' as it does at first appear. As for the memory in the pensieve being biased however, I'm not sure that is possible.

But is Harry as arrogant as his father in a way? Wouldn't he treat Malfoy like that if he had a chance?

[pineapple]

Harry and James are different...they've been through much different things, and have grown up under MUCH different circumstances.

I've never seen Harry as arrogant as his father was in Snape's momory, though. A little stubborn, maybe. But he's pretty humble in my opinion. If I were as gifted as he is in magic, my head would probably be a little bigger than his is now.

[Silver Phoenix]

You also have to remember. Its probably a Slytherin vs. Gryffindor thing too. They're in two diffrent houses that seem to always have a major rivalry going on, more so than the others. I think that may have contributed to it a bit as well.

Another thing - it was said that snape knew more hexes before he got to school than anyone else. therefore we know he isn't just "poor little picked on snape" i'm sure he did /something/ to make them pick on him inpaticular all the time.

[Tsar]

It is true that Age tempers most people. At 15 I was much like James. But there aree events that can change people. I would think that meeting Lily eventually tempered James.

[Loz]

I think that being able to see his father in that light may have stopped Harry from becoming as arrogant as his father was at that age.

[Amadeus]

well, he DEFINITELY has seen more..

He has seen quite a few deaths, Voldemort himself.. and a lot more....

[saffron]

All they showed in that was james was agnorant. I don't think he was a bully to snape as that was probably SNAPES WORST MEMORY

[preludetoadream]

I thought it was good it's the truth of life, a lot of people who where horrible when young become fantastic people.

[saffron]

all that memory showed was that james was agnorant. There's a lot worse thing then being agnorant. i dont think he was a bully at all. everyone seems to be forgetting that was most probably SNAPES WORST MEMORY or atleast a really bad one. That would probably mean james didnt pick on him all the time if the worst he did was turn him upside down so people could see his undies he couldn't have been too bad.
All that bothered me from that was coz of all the james and lily fics I always hoped it was a beautiful romance stpry between the two of them and now obviously its not.

[tabby]

I don't think it was Snapes worst memory. Just the most embarrassing one.

Loz: If there was any reason for the attack, surely they would have mentioned it. If Snape was a thug or a pain in the arse they would have said so. Instead it was because he was an easy target. Snape may have known more curses, but it wasn't exactly the ideal place to use them.

[Inkwolf]

I think what upset Harry the most wasn't seeing himself in his father. Harry is a decent kid who (through his own experiences) has learned to despise bullying. That's the trouble.

I think Harry expected to see himself in his father, after what he's been told all his life, and was highly disturbed to see Dudley in his father and himself in Snape, who he hates.

I think he was further upset when Sirius blew it off as 'We were fifteen." As Harry said, he's fifteen as well. And he hates bullies.

But Harry won't have the chance to come to terms with it all, will he? He's young. Sirius, who he loved, is dead, and they can't discuss or understand one another. Harry's pain won't let him blame Sirius for anything, so Snape is the target for his hatred, at least until he gets over the deatht.

I feel bad because Harry has now trapped himself into hating Snape out of his own guilt and pain, rather than being able to try to understand both sides. Something tells me it will cost him in the future.

Something also tells me the name Snivellus will be on Harry's lips at some point in Book 6. :p

[Loz]

Inkwolf - good post. I like your version... I've been waiting for someone to post that - lol. I also agree that Harry was disconcerted to see himself in James... But also - I maintain that a part of it is James in himself, because he can be awfully arrogant at times. Sometimes there's a reason for being arrogant though. And having a great big prophecy about u might just be one of those times...

Tabby - Not necessarily - but you would think that Lupin and Black would say something about Snape being a lil snitch at that point in time.

[SullyFawkes]

The more I think about it, the less I think Harry is arrogant. I think Harry's other similiarities to James are what cause people to say how alike they are, and Snape's claims that Harry is arrogant come from his dislike for Harry and then transposing things he didn't like about James onto Harry.
I don't think we've ever seen Harry truly arrogant. He's had flashes of thinking that he has experienced more than his friends, etc., but he's always conflicted about it. I think his inner struggle is what keeps him from being arrogant.
One could say that his tendency to believe that he is the only one who can solve a problem or mystery rather than alerting the authorities or consulting adults could be arrogance, but I don't think that would be the right term. His self reliance has always bothered me ("Why don't you just go tell Dumbledore?!"), because in his position I wouldn't be keeping it all to myself. But they wouldn't be very interesting books if he just went and told an adult and they solved the situation for him. So maybe rather than arrogance, it's a necessary plot device?
I'd like to hear if anyone does think he's arrogant, though. Examples?

[SullyFawkes]

The more I think about it, the less I think Harry is arrogant. I think Harry's other similiarities to James are what cause people to say how alike they are, and Snape's claims that Harry is arrogant come from his dislike for Harry and then transposing things he didn't like about James onto Harry.
I don't think we've ever seen Harry truly arrogant. He's had flashes of thinking that he has experienced more than his friends, etc., but he's always conflicted about it. I think his inner struggle is what keeps him from being arrogant.
One could say that his tendency to believe that he is the only one who can solve a problem or mystery rather than alerting the authorities or consulting adults could be arrogance, but I don't think that would be the right term. His self reliance has always bothered me ("Why don't you just go tell Dumbledore?!"), because in his position I wouldn't be keeping it all to myself. But they wouldn't be very interesting books if he just went and told an adult and they solved the situation for him. So maybe rather than arrogance, it's a necessary plot device?
I'd like to hear if anyone does think he's arrogant, though. Examples?

[Loz]

I do believe that in some ways, SullyFawkes, Harry is arrogant.

Like you said - his self-reliance is a form of arrogance. Perhaps it is well founded arrogance, but arrogance all the same. For a while there he was starting to think that in some ways he may be better than Ron - granted, he fought himself on the topic, but the brought it up in the first place. He is arrogant enough to believe that he can't rely on any adult, let alone being self-reliant. Let's all remember how he completely neglected Snape as a member of the order - sheer arrogance or lunacy?

[Virtuousdream]

Hmmm I remember myself when we were all so innocent in book three reading about what a villian Sirius was and how brave Peter was, we only got a one sided impression and were keen to judge Sirius then until we learned the truth.

Don't forget that's ONE memory, I imagine al ot like it, but as it's Snape's worse memory, I doubt James and co did any worse than that. We have only seen the good side of James until now, so we need an unbaised source, like we have only been shown a bad side to snape until now to a certain degree.

We are so keen to have a go at James and Sirius, aren't we forgetting Remus? Isn't he worse for not stopping them? He said he was made prefect in hope of 'taming' (excuse the pun) them, and he failed miserably, he even let them carry on because it stopped him from getting picked on a bit.

As for Peter, well he certainly interested me the most. You saw him, he was shreaking with laughter and was amazed by James catching a stupid little snitch. It confuses me even more why he chose to go to voldemort, because he clearly idolised James, so why betray him? Yes yes, he liked the power, he liked to choose the powerfullest bully in the playground. but betray James?! Something tells me he will slowly but surely regret that.

[Picko]

I don't think self-reliance is a form of arrogance - not in Harry's case at least. He's self-reliant because he has to be, if he wasn't he'd put everyone he cares about in danger. As it is he already does.

As for thinking he's better than Ron I'd argue that he is and proved it time and time again and his thoughts were based truly on facts not a clouded or biased view of himself or his achievements.

And he completely neglected Snape because of who Snape is. Snape is entirely undesirable, he doesn't give any incentive for Harry to talk to him and doesn't in any way act like a member of the Order. As the reader it's easy to look at him as the bad guy and that opinion is often deserved.

[Mad-I Moody]

I must say that I agree with Inkwolf in that Harry must have been very shocked (and even resentful) to find himself in Snape and NOT his father. However, to James' credit, he obviously matured out of the bullying arrogance -- otherwise, I don't believe people would have spoken so highly of him. Also, he must have developed a deeper conscience, since he did end up saving Snape from the Marauder's prank concerning Lupin.

It was good for Harry to see another side of his father. We all learn something when we first see the flaws of our parents - nobody is perfect, and no one can be expected to be so. While Harry may not have the arrogance of his father (I certainly don't think of Harry as arrogant - look at how he first reacted to Ron and Hermione talking about his skills in DADA), he has other flaws that he can learn to overcome, just as (we hope) James learned to overcome his big head!

I like to think that Lily softened James - his better qualities were brought out by love.

[HogwartsChaplain]

I don't think Harry is arrogant; he's like James in other ways. Perhaps his self-reliance is one of the ways he's like James; those who play seeker must be self-reliant. However, those who play seeker also must look around them and see the snitch clearly. I'm afraid that Harry tends to close himself off from things that may help him-- Sirius' gift of the mirror and occlumency come quickly to mind from book 5.

[Loz]

Picko - that was the Ron-hater in you speaking then :p

Mad-I-Moody - hmmm - interesting.

I'm the only one who thinks Harry's arrogant. Meh. I'm right, you're all wrong, I know arrogance when I see it.

[Ecthelion]

I'm the only one who thinks Harry's arrogant. Meh. I'm right, you're all wrong, I know arrogance when I see it.

Well, your not the only one to say the least. Harry of course, isn't arrogant in the way that James was, but you do see fleet and sometimes violent glimpes of James' character in some of Harry's actions.

I firmly believe that if Harry hadn't been raised by the Dursley's and not gotton "humbled" by Dudley, but instead had his own parents to care for him, he would have turned out exactly as we saw James portrayed. However, he wasn't handled by his parents, but instead suffered a horrible loss and continuous sorrow, which has a knack for sinking one's arrogance.

In other words, Harry isn't as arrogant as his father, but he does have it in him and would be very interesting ot see it be released! (Though highly unlikely...)

[Inkwolf]

I don't think Harry's more arrogant than other average kids his age.

I think his self-reliance comes from growing up in a situation where he knew he could expect no help from authority figures.

Helhorns, I think Peter may have switched sides because James shaped up, and there was no more entertaining torture going on for him to take vicarious part in. I admit, I had some sympathy for Pettigrew before this book, but I was totally disgusted with him here.

And Loz, this is different from Book Three. This is the 'other side' we're seeing now. I wish there was a way Harry could talk to James, and hear the reformed bully's view....instead we only get Lupin's shame, Snape's rage, and Sirius's complete indifference. Different sides of an ugly incident, none of them complete.

[Loz]

That was a joke before - LOL!!! *shakes head*

I only started this thread to see everyone's take on it... I actually have no set idea, I just like creating arguments and arguing them out (mainly with myself). Once more Inkwolf brings up the very thing I've been thinking - we only get to see these situations from set perspectives, altho the pensieve incident can't be too biased - but in some ways it is, because we don't know what Snape has done either before or after the incident...

[Virtuousdream]

Who says we won't get to hear James' view? maybe we will in book 6 and 7?

[jmk623]

They are similar in some ways. They are both brave; Harry facing Voldemort and James dueling with Voldemort. They look the same-except for a few things. They are excellent fliers and great at Qudditch. They have arch enemies in Hogwarts; Harry has Malfoy and James has Snape. You could say that Harry is sort of arrogant. He is surprised that Ron is prefect, not him, and he thinks he's gone through more than anyone, so that means he has a right to the information the adults won't give to him.

However, when James is forever rumpling his hair, Harry is trying to flatten it down, and Harry at 15, doesn't start attacking Malfoy in front of Cho to get attention. James probably had a teffific home, and must have been weathly, considering he had an Invisablitiy Cloak. He was talented in everything he tried. Harry, has to struggle in some subjects and he had a horrible childhood.

[Picko]

Well you're wrong Loz and I'm right :D And I don't hate Ron that much now but I still don't like him ;)

[Runes]

Remember JKR said there was some significance to the color of Harry's eyes: Lily's eyes. Well, ever since I read that I've assumed that it sort of means that Harry sees things in a perspective somewhat like Lily would. That explains how he doesn't have an almost-as-reckless-as-James streak in him. He really thinks before doing anything: like how he said no to Sirius when Sirius wanted to come visit him in Hogsmeade. James would have been all for it. But Harry, who's been under Hermione's very pragmatic influence for four years, didn't act like that. And after that Sirius does say that he thought Harry would've been more like his father. Am I making any sense here? o.O;

[Grace Granger]

I really don't know what to think of "those arrogant Potter boys." We must admit, didn't we all think that Harry was going to be prefect and Ron wasn't. I know I did and I was angry with Harry about it, too.

They are both arrogant, but it seems as though James is a bit more conscious of it. Harry is arrogant in the sense that he gets away with certain things. Which happens to be when he has to save the Wizarding World. See that's why I don't know what to think of it.

We're also seeing this as Snape's Worst Memory so there could be a nicer, less arrogant side of James we don't know about. Then again, Lily did say that he hexes whomever he felt like while walking down the Hall. :shrug: I truly don't know.

[Loz]

Who's more arrogant - the Potter boys or the Malfoy boys?

[Europa]

Originally posted by emikkime

One last question...Who thinks that James did pull off Snape's underpants?


;) Well, if he did, that's a bit weird...but I thought the whole James/Snape thing was great - it was good to finally get a personality on James. And I thought it was funny - the way he kept messing his hair reminded me of some guys at my school very strongly!

[Puffskein]

The point of the Pensieve scene is not, I think, to show that Harry is arrogant - it's to shock Harry into realising that nobody's perfect, not even his idolised father, who he knew very little about anyway. He was also shocked to find himself seeing Snape as a human being, who was moreover, right about James in that scene with the map in POA. Still, I don't think James was a bad person, since he did save Snape's life. And it sounds as if James didn't just hate Snape because he existed, but because of the Dark Arts thing.

As for Lupin sitting by - his friends had just spent three years working to help him and he'd hardly have wanted to jeopardise their friendship by getting them into trouble. It's his little "Duty and the Beast" dilemma that stopped him telling Dumbledore about Sirius in POA. It's not commendable, but very understandable.

[Picko]

Originally posted by Loz (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=392787#post392787))
Who's more arrogant - the Potter boys or the Malfoy boys?


Definately the Malfoy boys. As we understand it James must have grown up quite a bit between the age of 15 and his death because he was held in such high esteem by so many people after his death. Lucius clearly thinks himself superior to just about everyone particular muggle-borns, which is something we cannot associate with James. And do we really have to compare the arrogance of Draco and Harry? Let me just say that for the most part Harry is frightenly unarrogant given his talent and achievements.

[Schlubalybub]

Another thing you have to remember about snapes memory is that it was a memory, i.e. the way Snape remembered it

[Picko]

Exactly and people have a habbit of making memories appear better or worse than they may have been when the occurred.

[Puffskein]

I just feel like commending Harry on his reaction to what he saw in the Pensieve. He reacted very maturely considering how many times he's wanted to hit Snape with a cauldron.

[pineapple]

Exactly, Schlubalybub. I know that I remember some events a lot differently than my friends do. It is possible that Snape's memories are worse than they actually were because he was the one who was being pained.

[Loz]

Unfortunately the 'biased memory' thing just doesn't wash. The pensieve recreates exactly what happened (perhaps in a time-turner kinda way, hell, it's magic) - there is no way Snape could have heard the Marauders in the examination hall as they are talking about Lupin being a werewolf. Sorry.

So - back on the arrogance issue - i think for the most part people are saying that James was arrogant, but was not, perhaps terrible in being so, and that Harry is not arrogant, except when he has every just cause? Whereas the Malfoys are arrogant and have no right to be so?!

[Picko]

Basically that's pretty correct Loz. Malfoy and Malfoy are meanies :D Potter and Potter are goodies :D

[Loz]

Now Picko... I don't think it's as green and gold as that :p

Draco may (or may not) still have his arrogance cut down to size, James did - ohh ohh - I'm going to the redeeming Draco thread on this one. *cough*

[Weatherby]

Well arrogance isn't always bad. It is if you are careless with other's feelings. Snape still hasn't gotten over the teasing.
Draco is in the opposite position though. He bullies those weaker as well as those he's jealous of.

[Loz]

I'd just like to borrow this excellent post from the All About Snivellus Snape (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11228) thread, as it reinforces my argument(s) in a way - because, after all, isn't arrogance perceived?

Originally posted by Inkwolf (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=393468#post393468))
I'd like to comment on the 'Harry isn't James' argument.

It's perfectly true.

But from Snape's point of view--there is little difference! Think about what Snape knows and has seen of Harry, rather than what we, seeing things from Harry's POV, have seen.

Year one--Harry turns up, looking just like James, and everyone making a huge fuss over him, just as they did James. He's a Quidditch star, just like James. The fighting starts between Harry and Snape's favorite pupil, just as it started between Snape and James. This time, though, the Slytherin has his teacher to back him up. Bet Snape wished someone had backed him up as a kid.

Year Two--Harry steals a car and flies it to school, first thing. Something James would have done! Just like James probably did, Harry gets off pretty much scot-free with a little detention. Later he throws a firecracker in someone's potion pot (a Slytherin student of course), causing terror and distress to the class. James-like, if you don't know the reason.

Year Three--Harry gets into trouble for illegally using magic over the summer. Comes to school, and more fuss being made over him than ever, but this time for his own protection. Breaks the rules to go wandering off to Hogsmeade, risking his silly neck when everyone else in the world is trying to protect him--sound like Jameslike arrogance? Turns up with an insulting old relic of the Marauders. Has Lupin as an ally against Snape, and takes Sirius's side against him, too.

Year 4--More fuss than ever being made over Harry, who has apparently broken the rules yet again to get himself made the star of the tri-wizard tournament. Malfoy and his friends come home covered with curses: looks like the Potter gang has been having some Jameslike fun on the train.

Year 5--Harry is sulky, resentful and rude. And yet, just when Snape is finally beginning to understand him and cut him some slack (note, in spite of insults, no punishments in occlumency lessons...for instance when Harry scorched Snape involuntarily and when he used the shielding spell "Did I tell you to do that?" In other times, Snape would quite likely have taken the excuses to nab a few points from Gryffindor.) Harry, of course, blows everything by sneaking behind his back to check out the pensieve.

As far as Snape knows, Harry is JUST like James.

[Picko]

Originally posted by Loz (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=394403#post394403))
Now Picko... I don't think it's as green and gold as that :p


Oh of course it is:
Malfoy = mean
Voldemort = more mean
Potter = good
Dumbledore = more good

There you go I've summed up the books :p

[Loz]

*snicker* And what if that DD is Evil theory is correct? *KABOOM*

[Eva]

I don't think it's necessarily a question of whether or not Harry is arrogant. When I read the passage, I was struck more by the fact that Harry is finally seeing his father as a person. For pretty much everyone, there's a very specific point in time where you realize that your parents are real, multi-dimensional people, not just mom and dad. Because Harry never knew his parents, he never experienced this. It seemed to me that the passage was JK's way of having Harry let go of his child-like idolization of his father.

[MagpieOnaga]

I don't really see the point of your argument, Loz. You say that, if Harry hadn't led such a difficult life before Hogwarts, he would have been just as arrogant as his father. So what? He did lead a difficult life. He is not arrogant now. So what does it matter if he *would have* turned out that way?

And I don't agree that Harry is arrogant now. Yes, he does have something of an "I can do it myself, I don't need your help" attitude, but I don't think that comes from arrogance. He has always managed to fend for himself in the past, so he's not used to getting help from authority figures. I think Harry is afraid that Dumbledore won't respect him as much if he comes running to him every time his scar hurts. He's an orphan -- he's never had a mother he can to come crying to whenever he's hurt or scared, so that's not an automatic reaction for him. His automatic reaction is to solve the problem himself, and to hide his fear and pain from those who care about him.

[Picko]

I don't really see the point of your argument, Loz. You say that, if Harry hadn't led such a difficult life before Hogwarts, he would have been just as arrogant as his father. So what? He did lead a difficult life. He is not arrogant now. So what does it matter if he *would have* turned out that way?

Exactly, human beings are usually a product of their environment - Harry's environment was of course the Dursley's home. However, even if Harry had grown up with James and Lily there is a distinct possibility he would not have become arrogant as his father. I'm speaking of the influence Lily could have had on a young Harry that would have stopped him from having the arrogance that had been a trademark of his father.

[Rosie B.]

I, like Harry was struck by James' behavior. I never expected it from the way his shadow spoke to Harry in book 4 and how everyone said he was such a wonderful person. But what really got me was when they said "He was only 15." This is because like Harry I'm also 15. To someone my age it's old enough to have resposibility for your actions.

That's my two knuts.

[Giggling Kat]

Re: The Pensieve's reliability

I don't know if I agree with the thought the Pensieve must be true because Lupin talks about being a werewolf. Snape knew in PoA that Lupin was - he learns about it sometime and Dumbledore doesn't let him blab. So he may have known.

But even if it's accurate - it's still a perspective. (And I posted this elsewhere with Draco's memory of the PS offered handshake) Remember what Ron and Harry thought about Hermoine before they all squared off against the troll. Now: Imagine Ron and Hermoine's child stumbling across the memory - of a third person - of Ron's "Is it a wonder no one likes her?" in PS. Wouldn't they have the same questions about his parents that Harry now has about his?

James undoubtably did those things to Snape to relieve Sirius' boredom. But what has Snape done to them up to this point? Is Lily really "hateful" or exasperated? Can outsiders tell the difference?

[Puffskein]

The Pensieve seems to be a reliable, unbiased source. Was Snape really listening to every word the Marauders said? Even so, we only saw a short episode from an ongoing story. I hope James is redeemed soon - it makes me sad that Sirius's poignant line "You are truly your father's son" in POA has has such a shadow cast over it. However arrogant James was, he can't have deserved to be betrayed and murdered.

[Raistlin_Majere]

Arrogance isn't all THAT bad is it? Ecspecially well-founded arrogance, like Harry's. I mean...he's beaten Voldemort(2 times...he was 1...and 11), young Voldemort(and a basilisk), and he drew with a revived Voldemort. Everytime he meets him, he wins(even in book 4, getting back hurt Voldemort's plans). No one else has done that without being seriously messed up. He learned Patronus at age 13(about 4 years before he shoulda). If it were me, I'd be pissed off too...and alot les modest.
NOTE: He got help, but never when he was face to face with Voldemort, only getting up to him.

[too_wicked]

Harry is indeed a bit over the edge in book 5. He's annoyingly biting his best friends' heads off and it's really irritating. He is so angsty in this book and he was jealous and bitter. A whole new Harry indeed.

But I don't think he'd become arrogant like his dad (yeah, I kinda freaked out when I found out James is a snot). He's just developing into a teenager and as a teenager, I think being angsty is normal. He'll overcome that bitterness inside him and i think will be even ashamed of himself for his stupid mood swings. He grew up in a community where everybody dislikes him and as we all remember finding out he's famous and great was a shocker to him. He'll always be the innocent and modest guy in my opinion up until book 7. But I'm sure he's going to act like a prat in the future books.

[Raistlin_Majere]

Yeah, that was the one point that made me mad. He yelled at people who had helped him through it all. Of course, if he'd yelled at like... I don't know... Moody...or Mrs Weasley or something I'd be all for it... where the heck were they.

[miri]

I don't know if this, or the Snivellus thread is the best place for this... but:

James playing with the Snitch - almost letting it escape then catching it again, parallel to the Marauders playing with Snape - almost getting him killed then saving him?

Ultimate arrogance - being so cock-sure of yourself you'll happily risk someones' life coz you're sure you can save it again.

REALLY great reason to hate - being treated as though your life is worth the same as an enchanted little gold ball with wings. OUCH.

[vickygirl4]

I think everyone is being too rash in judging James and Sirius. First of all, we don't know how Snape treated them. Snape could have been just as mean and arrogant! And obviously James did change for the better, since Lily, someone who clearly hated him, ended up marrying him.

Also, I don't think Harry is at all arrogant or mean. He may be a bit melodramatic at times, but that's just the teenage hormones. He'll get over it . . . hopefully.

[Raistlin_Majere]

melodramatic at times....tell me...when has he ever been melodramatic...before the 5th book that is? And...If I saw my godfather being tortured I'd flip too (I'm an angsty teen too...but that's beside the point)

[tree guardian]

I was at first surprised Harry was upset about not being chosen Prefect. As he had said himself, such an issue hadn't crossed his mind, and well, for good reason.

I could see why he was upset, though, after he had thought about being prefect and if it was something important to him. Though I was not convinced it was important to him at all. Only he thought he deserved the chance.

After Moody found out about Hermione and Ron becoming prefects the first thing he said was "...authority figures always attract trouble..." I have a feeling Moody said as part justification of Dumbledore's picks as well as a simple matter of fact.

Also, and this struck me odd. I don't think Dumbedore's explaination to Harry as to why he wasn't chosen was random. What I mean is Phinelas (sp) (Sirius's great-great grandad) was the unseen lurker in the blank picture frame in Harry's room at the OOtP headquarters. Phineals (sp) saw Harry's reaction and I am sure he spread the word to Dumbledore.

Also, maybe another, perhaps obvious, reason Dumbledore didn't choose Harry was because if Harry had become a Prefect he would have learned some "things" about the school and passwords that Voldemort might find useful.....who knows.

:)

[Earendil]

Well. I definitely agree that both James AND Harry have the tendency towards arrogance, but I disagree that this is necessarily a bad thing. There are worse character flaws than arrogance, and it didn't stop either of them from truly being good people, did it?

I'm not saying that arrogance is something to be proud of. I don't mind admitting that I can be highly arrogant myself, because I can recognize it and correct it when the victim of my arrogance deserves an apology. :whistle: And James may have come off as a self-satisfied jerk in the Pensieve memory, but I couldn't have been happier with this addition, since it gave new depth to James's character and Harry's perception of his father. It would have been highly unrealistic for Harry to keep deluding himself into thinking that his father was this perfect saint, because Harry is far from being perfect himself and we all know how much he is compared to James. I think that part of his horror at seeing his father behaving like an idiot was that he was afraid of seeing the same attitude in himself, as many of you have already mentioned, since he probably wouldn't want ot have to entertain the possibility that he too may be have the same flaws in his character as James.

I still think that the main reason Harry was upset after seeing the Pensieve memory was the explanation that we're offered in canon: he felt that the idealistic image of his father--his idol--came crashing down when he realized that James was actually alot less like the perfect angel he wanted him to be and alot more like Harry himself. Harry knows that he can be a hot-tempered and arrogant jerk at times, but he always imagined that his father would never behave the way that he sometimes does when he's provoked. Then, to have to see his father acting in a way that Harry never does--actually doing the bullying rather than defending himself as the bullied one, as Harry is forced to do--it's even more of a blow to him.

Interesting point about the Snitch, miri. James certainly did seem to think that no matter how far he let it go, he would be able to "rescue" it. A sign of his fool-hardy nature?

About the Prefect thing: I found it a little strange that Harry actually expected to be made a prefect. It wasn't as if he had ever given it much thought before, as far as we know. I think this was another example of him assuming that because he's close to Dumbledore and because he's always "playing the hero", he's guaranteed to get plenty of recognition. It certainly seemed that he was upset after finding out because he didn't like to have his spotlight taken by Ron. I don't blame this on his arrogance entirely, however: he's gotten used to being the star and the hero, and to have it suddenly taken away must have been a shock.

[tree guardian]

quote: originally posted by Earindil

It certainly seemed that he was upset after finding out because he didn't like to have his spotlight taken by Ron. I don't blame this on his arrogance entirely, however: he's gotten used to being the star and the hero, and to have it suddenly taken away must have been a shock.

I don't think Harry's feelings had anything to do with star treatment and having it "taken away" , cause I really don't think he'd been feeling any sort of "star" treatment from anybody for a long while.

However I do think his hurt reaction was spurred from an increase belielf that Dumbledore was loosing faith trust and confidence in him. This issue of Dumbledore's faith comes up alot in the book and is why Harry doesn't even consider sharing with Dumbledore his troubles. Maybe he is also trying to prove to Dumbledore that he,Harry, can handle multiple problems.

:smile:

[Ecthelion]

Well, I'd have to say it dealt with both. Harry was frustrated manner was dictated by the fact that, yes, he was sort of upset that he wasn't the one being the high person now, somebody else was. (spurred mostly by universal adolescent feelings) and the fact that not having himself be a prefect meant that Dumbledore (to him) was losing faith or trust in him, which is quite crucial to Harry being the way he is.

In other words, both scenarios had there part in causing Harry's distress, but then again, at that moment he was trying to find anything that will give him another reason to be mad at. (he had plenty to begin with that were true as well....) Also, I don't think any of it dealed with Harry having to much "arrogance". More or less, he had gotten the wrong end of the deal which was unjustified and he was at that point, thinking he was losing someone trust, one of whom he looked up to very much

[Puffskein]

There are some people (not really in this thread, but all over the place) who now think James was a complete git. To believe that, I think, is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, it's quite right for us to hate the James Potter who hexed people for fun. But let's not forget that there was also a James who worked for three years to help Remus; a James who made Lily alight with happiness on their wedding day; a James who sacrificed his life trying to save his wife and child. HP characters aren't one-sided, and just because Snape was right about James doesn't automatically make everyone else wrong. It just means Harry should stop worshipping him.
I will be annoyed if JKR doesn't show us how James redeemed himself - I don't want to have to think of Snape's pants when I re-read all the poignant bits about Harry's parents.

[mystically_mad]

I was really upset when I read about James being such a prat but I agree that there is more to his character. Sirius says that James grew up in his 7th year, thats why Lily fell in love with him. 15 yr old boys are immature at times, especially when they are showing off for their friends.

[expelliarmus]

well, i wasn't really upset about it. i was a bit surprised but it's not a shock. from what mcgonagall said in PoA about them, it makes sense.
And I really dont think James was as arrogant as Malfoy. For one thing, Malfoy thinks Mudbloods are beneath him and Hagrid is no good. I assume James doesn't have that kind of thinking about Muggle-borns.

And didn't Hagrid say to Harry in book 4 that "you did as much as your father would have done and i can't give you no higher praise than that". that must mean he was pretty close to james and james didn't make fun of him for being half-giant. BTW, Hagrid also mentioned in OoTP that he knew Sirius longer than Harry. So there.

[Loz]

Great posts :D I agree with all of you in different ways.

I think you all brought up some great points in Harry and James's characters. Especially about James's foolhardy nature, but then his other side - the werewolf befriending, dark arts fighting, caring side.

[mystically_mad]

Sometimes there are things that can make you do nasty things even when you are really very nice.

[Loz]

Yup Mystically_mad. :yup: Sometimes words like "nice" just aren't words that should be used in regards to humans, as well. I mean, niceness is a perception. Some people might think you are 'nice' others might think you're a butt-kissing smoocher. Fudge, for instance, might be considered 'nice' by some, but an imbecile by others (like me par example). Basicially there are many facets to human character, and some are negative and others positive. So far we have heard about James's positives but seen his negatives and now we need to see his positives to reinforce that really he wasn't a complete git through and through.

[mystically_mad]

Very nicely put Loz. Thats exactly how I feel too. Seeing as James is dead he is held as a bit of a hero as well. Noone wants to admit his faults, except Snape of course.

[kitkatcake]

I think people are taking this way too seriously. I mean, James had every quality of the popular kid in school. His family was probably pretty wealthy, had a nice childhood, pureblood and quidditch star. Now at age 15, any normal boy would probably abuse his popularity. Harry, on the other hand, had a tough childhood with muggles, was barely fed enough and bullied by Dudley his whole life, he obviously wouldn't seem like someone who would bully after all his time with Dudley. Even though James was mean and arrogant at 15, he was still a good person. After all, he did save Snape's life later on.

[snuggle the muggle]

I have enjoyed reading all these posts. Now, for my take on the scene with James: When I first read the scene, I had a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach because I was so upset that the "hero" turned out to be a little bit of a creep. And I felt bad that Harry was ashamed of his father. I think that was the thing that most upset me. However, I realized after re-reading the book that the whole theme about Harry coming to terms with the flaws and limitations of adults is very powerful through this book. He sees that adults cannot fix everything in book 5 and that they are not perfect. (This could be a whole different post, so I won't elaborate on how this has developed over the entire series.) I think that the scene with James just strengthens this "theme." However, I must also add that I felt that James was slightly "redeemed" later in the book as Harry watches Ron "messing up his hair" in the same way that James did and smiles. To me, that says that Harry had realised that James was human but, like Ron, he could still be a great person. I really found some peace (can I be that melodramatic?) with that scene with Ron and Harry's reaction to it.

[mystically_mad]

That scene actually sort of freaked me out, I mean what if Ron does something like that to someone. Then I told myself to get over it lol.

[vickygirl4]

What I don't understand is why everyone is so shocked that James acted in this manner, but nobody says anything about Sirius? It's as if everyone expected this kind of cruelty from Sirius. Sirius is not a bad person, he's no worse than James.

[Daveydee]

Should any of us be really surprised at how the Marauders were depicted. Perhaps we all deceived ourselves into beleiving that they were the 'great and the good', when in actual fact our suspicions should have been alerted when they were first mentioned in PoA.

maraud: to go about in search of things to steal/people to attack (source-Oxford English Dictionary)

[mystically_mad]

Well I suppose its because James has been built up as a golden boy but Sirius has always been sort of 'bad'

[Loz]

Vickygirl4 - this is the Arrogant Potter boys thread, that's why no-one's talking about Sirius :D :p :elaugh:

snuggle the muggle (really really cool name btw - awww) I like how you brought that up - that's a really great thought. Harry had come to terms that his father was human, yeah! :clappy: Or had he just wanted to do that to Snape himself by that stage?! :p

[Drusilla]

So James Potter,at fifteen,was a moron.The thing we have to remember when we talk about the Marauders and Snivellus in that memory is that they've been going to school together for almost five years.Prongs and Snape (as stated by Sirius and Lupin) hated each other at first sight,so it's possible (and probable) that Snape wasn't exactly lily-white (no pun intended) himself-we did see him pull out his wand to attack James and later,when the Full-Body Bind wore off,he did slash open the side of his face with a spell and I don't seem to remember Prongs spilling Snape's blood.He was vicious all right,but so was Snape,and it IS Snape's memory after all,his point of view,from which the Marauders were prats.And he was,ultimately,decent enough to pull Snape out of the Whomping Willow and save his life-I'd like to see that memory.Not that it really excuses James's behaviour,just explains it.And has anyone really wondered why Snape was so unpopular in school?

[evil_by_nature_dm]

i think we saw a side of harry never shown.... i didnt like his temper much in this book... i have to say.

[evil_by_nature_dm]

tho i understand it. i would be TICKED about the whole prefect thang

[evil_by_nature_dm]

harry kinda scared me in this book tho... the whole cursing bellatrix... i mean, he needs to get his temper in check, or he'll be a wanted man!!

[Catwalkk]

I think Harry's horrified reaction to seeing James humiliate Snape is because James reminds him so much of, not himself and not Draco, but Dudley Dursley. The parallels between James & Company's behavior in the Pensieve and Dudley & Company's behavior in the first chapter is quite striking.

Harry's perceived arrogance is mostly from having to take care of himself for his first eleven years in a world where everyone thinks he is insane, criminal, runty, retarded, and evil. Harry had to take care of himself against all these people, adults and children alike. He's not used to asking for help. He's not used to accepting help that is offered, because for most of his life it wasn't "help" that was being offered, but more pain and humiliation. Harry is remarkably well adjusted, considering all he had to endure.

Harry needed someone to look up to, and for the first four years of his life in the magical world, the ones he looked up to were James Potter and Albus Dumbledore. And in this book, both of them proved they were capable of mistakes. They came down off their pedestals. Yes, Harry is upset about it. But he will come to terms with it, in the same way he has come to terms with many other less-than-ideal situations in his life. He'll cope.

[A.M.]

I really didn't see any indication in this book that James was like this to any other students. As was mentioned in one of the books, James and Severus were very much like Harry and Draco. I really don't think Severus was the victim all through his time at Hogwarts.

[Mila]

Inkwolf:Something also tells me the name Snivellus will be on Harry's lips at some point in Book 6.

Oh yes!! And I wait this moment....I think it'll be great!! :devil:
Harry is not arrogant....is only a teenage that has seen too many worse things in his life!!

[Loz]

I think arrogance is underrated.

[mystically_mad]

What do you mean Loz?

[Loz]

I mean, mystically_mad, that arrogance isn't always a bad thing. And if it will help Harry in the future, he should use his latent arrogance to the best of his ability.

But I was mainly just saying that because I was bored.

[Schlubalybub]

i dont think harry IS arrogant!

[Loz]

Sure, he is,... part of him is, at least. In some ways he thinks he's better than others. He knows he's better than others. Like the Dursleys, for example. Not because they are muggles but because they are gits, admittedly, but Harry knows he's better than them.

[Inkwolf]

Originally posted by A.M. (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=436158#post436158))
I really didn't see any indication in this book that James was like this to any other students.

Yeah we did. Lily and Sirius both mentioned James going around and hexing everybody who got on his nerves, just for the fun of it.

As was mentioned in one of the books, James and Severus were very much like Harry and Draco. I really don't think Severus was the victim all through his time at Hogwarts.


What Dumbledore actually said, if I remember correctly, was that Snape and James had loathed each other instantly in the same way Harry and Draco did. There was no particular indication that Dumbledore saw them as similar in any other way.

[Mila]

I agree with you Loz...I think Harry need to know that he's better then other in some ways. A little bit of arrogance is not a bad thing for him...it'll give him the force to fight against some gits like Malfoy.
He just did that in the end of book 5

[mystically_mad]

I agree that a little bit of arrogance is a good thing, as long as it doesnt turn him into a feral.

[Weatherby]

Arrogance and confidence don't need to be compatible.

I agree with Inkwolf that Dumbledore didn't mean James/Snape were the same thing as Harry/Draco. I think some readers are reading too much into that.
Now we see the relationships are even farther apart. Harry doesn't antagonise Draco for fun. He doesn't antagonise Draco period.

[mystically_mad]

Not anymore he doesnt. But when Draco starts something with him he doesnt back down.

[Weatherby]

He shouldn't back down. He needs to defend himself.

[FredRocksMySocks]

I don't necessarily think that harry isn't confident...and he does show a bit of arrogance in the beginning of the book (when he screams at ron and hermione that he's done more than they have) so, really...I think he's a fine character, and too much of both qualities wouldn't have a good effect on him at all! He's already really moody and angry as it is, let's not give him another quality: haughtiness!

[mystically_mad]

I know weatherby. I am saying its a good thing. What I meant was Harry used to start things with Draco, he doesnt now but when Draco starts things he doesnt run away crying he stands up for himself.

[Weatherby]

You're right. Harry has a pretty good sense of decent behaviour. He won't back down for what he believes in.
Now he does perhaps go looking for trouble when it comes to Voldemort. But that's not a bad thing. It's his destiny.

[mystically_mad]

I think he will try to go looking for Bellatrix when he gets over his grieving period and starts on the angry period but maybe not Voldie just yet. He could also lead others into danger like he did at the end of OOTP, maybe Neville. I am sure Neville has something more to do with the storyline.

[FredRocksMySocks]

heh, yes it is, but he definetly should consider taking more than ron and hermione with him when he goes off looking for voldie---it's just too dangerous now, and after the DoM incident, they've shown they can't handle the DEs alone, they need backup, they're not magically powerful enough. it's not a bad thing that he goes after voldie all the time, but he needs to be more sensible about it. if he's the only one who can defeat voldie, then we don't want him getting himself killed, do we?

[Weatherby]

Harry won't lead anyone into danger who won't go with him. He can't make anyone do anything.
He may act rashly and go after Bellatrix but Neville has his own history with her.

[Kyntor]

I have really never seen Harry as being arrogant. Considering that he was told that he was a freak and wasn't worth anything until he was 11, I think he undervalues himself, not overvalues.

His discussion with Ron and Hermione at the beginning of the book was not arrogance, it was the truth. He has been through more than they have.

As far as the whole James/Snape conflict in this book, I thought it was blown all out of proportion. The pensieve did not make me see Snape in any new light and definately does not justify any of his behavior. I saw James as a teenager acting like a teenager. Snape is an adult who behaves like a teenager (his pettiness and the way he treats people).

[mystically_mad]

I just have this feeling that Harry and Neville will go after her. And of course they will meet Voldie there and have a confrontation. But that getting off topic.

[chocolate_fiend]

i reckon we should all give Harry a break! Why does everyone think he's arrogant? (ok, maybe not everyone, but work with me here, im generalizing) i think Harry's reactions are completely human and anyone who has gone through his experiences would do the same. When I read the bit in Snape's memory, I was shocked. I felt really sorry for Snape. But you know who I felt the sorriest for? (is taht a word?) Harry. I think his whole image of his father was shattered that night. He always idolized his father and lived with the idea that his father was a good person. Not that I don't think the Jmaes is still a good person. The point is that everyone makes mistakes and soem ppl do act like complete idiots when they are young. Snape shouldn't be taking his anger out on Harry! Though maybe Snape isn't as mean as he makes out.

[mystically_mad]

Well I think that Snape is very bitter but I agree he isnt as mean as he makes out. I think I have written this before but sometimes when you are young you do silly things that you wouldnt do as you got older. When you are 15 you tend to do nasty things.

[FredRocksMySocks]

Ok, first off!
the arrogance is derived from the truth. what harry said to ron and hermione was the truth, it was his attitude when he said it that made it arrogance instead of simply explaining that he was strong enough to hear the truth. that was a bit arrogant on his part to scream at him that he was better than he was. doesn't make him a bad person, and god knows i agreed with him that he didn't deserve to be left it the dark, not was is necessarily wrong, but it was arrogant. and a bit of arrogance is good. a bit. let's hope he doesn't go overboard!
second, i do not see how the pensieve scene could not have changed your mind. i just don't... it wasn't overexaggerated, it wasn't soley from snapes POV, it was things as they occured and that was snape being attacked because sirius was bored and james wanted to show off in front of lilly. there is just no getting around that. yes, we knew that they had their troubles and they were enemies and fought on more than that occasion, but that particular attack was unprovoked. how does that not change your mind? Not that they aren't good people, or at the very least didn't turn out to be good people, but at that time they were pretty cruddy and that's just the way it was. And chocolate, I felt bad for harry too. James was his whole reason for the patronus that saved him in PoA, and it boosted is morale being told he was like James, and so many other incidents. I am sure that that would have been the LAST thing James would have wanted harry to see oh him. But it happened, and you can't ignore it.
and last, to weatherby (great name, btw!!) I agree that they chose to come with him and Harry wouldn't lead anybody to danger. But I also think that it is dangerous to only take with you a few underage wizards when you're dealing with one of the most powerful wizards alive and his very very angry and devoted supporters. it was rash, but whatever...i think he just needs to keep it in mind for next time.

[chocolate_fiend]

yeah, I see where ur coming from -fred- I think I jsut found it really sad, how james turned out to be different from what everyone expected. What he did was horrible and I really hope taht In the next books, we find out more about what he did or why he did it, and I also hope that snape will be nicer to Harry and vice-verca....

[mystically_mad]

Well he didnt really have much of a choice of who to take. There werent any overage wizards hanging around.

That may have been the truth but he believed that he had been through more than the others and couldnt accept that it was better that he didnt know anything, so that is arrogance.

The penseive scene helps us to understand that James wasnt this Golden boy who could do no wrong, it shattered Harry's illusion. It also helps us begin to understand why Snapes hated Harry's father so much, Sirius as well.

[FredRocksMySocks]

i am sure that James wasn't that bad all the time or towards everybody. but at that particular point in time, and that age esp. he was cruddy. we obviously know that he isn't a bad person is everybody still speaks so highly of him and he died to save his wife and kids and was in the Order and all that jazz. he was just not a particularly nice teenager to those whom he thought he was superior to.
And I don't think that we can expect any good feelings from harry and snape lol! they're both too stubborn, angry and hot headed to be compatible lol!
EDIT:
harry could have gone back to hogwarts to talk to snape in private--instead he took off straight from the woods--even though, like he said, his scar hadn't let him know sirius was killed yet.

[Kyntor]

I never thought his attitude towards Ron and Hermione in that scene was born out arrogance, I thought it was born from anger and frustration. To me, he just seemed tired of people keeping secets from him and didn't expect his friends to do the same.

Ultimately, people are responsible for their own actions. One of the major themes of the Harry Potter series is that it is our choices that define who we are (see CoS especially). Snapes pensieve gave me no insight into his character and did not make me think any better of him. Were James and Sirius' actions good? No they weren't. They behaved like immature spoiled brat. Just because James and Sirius were mean to Snape once does not justify any of Snapes behavious except towards James and Sirius.

[FredRocksMySocks]

yes it does? you do not think that it is not only our choices, but our surroundings and experiences that influence us as well? Snape's attitude is almost entirely explainable by the marauders bullying! Absolutly he was affected by this, and that explains his attitude towards Sirius, Harry and anybody else who gets in his way. It's clearly a I-was-bullied-and-now-you're-all-going-to-pay attitude he displays!
And, yes, his attitude was out of frustration, but it then it was still arrogance, just out of frustration. There is no getting around the fact that he screamed at his friends that he was better than him. You can debate the causes till you're blue in the...er....fingers (?) but it was an arrogant thing to say, whatever the cause was. I do not think harry worse because of it, I just think that he is, despite growing up with the dursleys, confident enough to believe he is able to know his abilities and revel in what he has done--and any more confidence and he'll turn out to be James at age 15!

[Loz]

The difference between James and Harry, however, is that Harry has been victimised most of his life, and therefore has had his ego mentally beaten down.

It's amazing Harry has as much of an ego, and display of arrogance as he has considering what he's been through, actually.

[Picko]

I think that James in particular has been treated unfairly. Pretty much everyone has said that he's extremely arrogant and that they no longer respect him as much as they did.

However whenever I sit down and analyse my thoughts about James I come back to one thing his friendship with Remus. If James was such a bad person and thought of himself as being better than everyone else then surely he would've looked down his nose at a werewolf. That in itself is one thing we should bear in mind when looking at James, sure he might have been arrogant and yet at times that can be a good characteristic to have. I still think we shouldn't judge James actions until we know more of the backstory about the James/Snape rivalry because if I remember correctly Snape was in a gang of Slytherins and most of them became Death Eaters, in the flashback though he had no one. I suspect they were older than he was and the rivalry between James and Snape came to be when Snape was very able to fight back.

[mwpp_forever]

I agree, so, maybe i'm a little biased because i love James...and it's true, that the memory must've been unpleasant for harry to witness, to see his father in that kind of way. But who is perfect? The first time i read that part, i felt the same as Harry, but then i think about it. Without James, there would be no Harry today. He risked his life for Lily and Harry. He may have heavily embarssed Snape, but he knew where to draw the line, and he never crossed it.

Let's take a look at it this way, before we jump to conclusions about how James really is by watching ONE scene. His friends, first...Remus, the kind, calm, quiet, intellectual, and caring marauder. Sirius, the one who loves his Godson enough to die for him, loyal and faithful. Lily, who was self sacrificing, caring, and even stood up for the snape, despite him being in Slytherin and turning out to be ungrateful to her help. And Dumbeldore and the teachers, i don't feel the need to elaborate more on them. How does this have to do with James potter, you may ask? Well it has a lot to do with him. Those people i've just mentioned, are all adored and admired by most of the fans, they're such wonderful people, so if James Potter was such a horrible, arrogant, conceited and cruel person, why would Remus or Sirius become his best friend, and perhaps even to the point they would die for him? Why would Lily Evans marry an ignorant idiot like James Potter?

There's a reason. Harry has surely gone through mroe than James has, but it's not James' fault is it? James may have been horrible at 15, but you can't really determine how he is by one single scene that's the worst memory of snape. It isn't fair to James. And Snape would be dead by now if not for this 'conceited jerk',whether it was because he cared about Sirius' future, or Snape's life, it was still James Potter who saved him, and either reason, proves that he isn't just all about himself.

[Chrysalis]

When I had just finished reading OotP I couldn't get that Pensieve scene out of my head. At the time I hated James for doing that. Now I understand that he was just fifteen, and he had improved his ways. Not that that redeems him, there was no excuse for treating Snape like that. Snape is behaving the way he is not just because he hated James, I think he doesn't want people to come too close to him, because he's afraid he'll be hurt again. I really felt sorry for him after book 5, because it seemed as though he was abandoned by everyone. :sad: But I suppose this belongs in the AASS thread...

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I to was shocked like HP was when he saw his father in the Pensieve. I to thought highly of James when everyone said great things about him. But you can't judge him over that. He was a kid and acted as all kids do. Every kid has made fun of somebody else, it's how it is. But after that HP was told James had changed andd because of what he had done at age 15 doesn't mean he can't be a good father and a good person.

I feel that Snape shouldn't be mean to HP for what his father did to him. It wasn't HP who made his Hogwarts life miserable. And those things Snape said about Lily I was astonished ot hear and didn't feel guilty about what James did to him even though I wish he wasn't that brutal to Snape.

[Picko]

The key question to ask when considering James actions is "What did Snape do to deserve this?"

James says that Snape deserves because "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean..." but this is out of character because James, Sirius and Peter are best friends with a werewolf and these are one of the most feared beasts in the wizarding world. What makes Snape any worse? What has he done that makes James speak of him as he does? James doesn't act this way for the sake of it but for a specific reason. People should stop saying "I can't believe how terrible James was" and start saying "Well what the hell did Snape do in the first place?" because unless I've completely missing the point of things thats what JK is building us up for.

[lorna]

boy back to the Snape must have done something thing huh.
Black and lupin make it very plain to Harry when he confronts them in the Black kitchen that Snape did nothing and that James unfortunately was bullying "because he exsists". Even Sirius Black
who hates Snape, could not come up with a specific incident to justify the attack Harry witnessed. They do not give themselves or James an out.
Or more to the point, JK Rowling did not give them an out.
And I'm glad she didn't. The last message in the world that needs to be sent is that bullying is OK as long as one can justify it.

[Picko]

And then the question had to remain "What is so bad about Snape's existance?" James and Sirius had no problems being mates with a werewolf, a being extremely dangerous and who could've left them all with the same condition. That's an inconsistancy if you ask me and there's more to it than just Snape being bullied because James didn't like him.

[Puffskein]

Firstly, I don't think we should read too much into the "because he exists" line. You can't expect a 15-year-old bully to give a detailed psychological account of his motives, can you?

I think the key to James's treatment of Snape lies in the Dark Arts issue. Snape was very interested in a branch of magic that can be used to kill and maim people. James, who hated the Dark Arts anyway, decided to bully Snape as a sort of pre-emptive strike against the things he thought Snape would eventually
do to innocent people with his Dark Arts. At the time, James was too immature to realise that he was more likely to make Snape worse.

As for James and sirius's friendship with Remus: remember they didn't know he was a werewolf when they became friends. I think it reflects well on J&S that they made friends with a sick kid less talented than them, instead of bullying him. By the time they found out what was wrong, they knew Remus well enough to know he was a good and otherwise normal person who deserved sympathy.

[Morgan LeFay]

Well, Harry showed that if he had a reason, he could do nasty things. Like putting Crutiatus Curse on Bellatrix. Maybe James thought that Snape's interested in Dark Arts is enough reason to bully him?

PS. Do you think James took off Snape's underpants?

[mwpp_forever]

It's true that there really isn't a way to justify bullying, as it is clearly an unappreciated foul act, however, i agree that there is very likely, a lot more to it than just the fact tha Snape "exists" as James had put it. I think that Snape and his interests in the dark arts (or what seemed like it) at the time is a part of why James dislikes him this much. Yes, James was just a 15 year old, that probably doesn't know any better, but is that all? Even if he was immature, i would still trust him to have a little more reason than that, we only read one part on how he acted, we never really knew HIM did we? The Marauders were known for their prankings, but there was only Snape that was mentioned, of being humiliated and treated like this by them, and clearly, it wasn't only James that held much dislike for him. But as of now, i'd say it's near impossible to determine what the real reason (if there really is one as i'd like to believe) is, until JK rowling decides to clear that up.

[MagicGeek]

I am angry at a lot of the replies in this thread.

Firstly, the unpleasant attitude towards those who are bullied. To sidetrack a bit, I was very, very, very unpopular at school. I don't remember much about it - I think I blocked a lot of it out since I'm only 21 now - but I think anyone can agree that things have become dreadful when one is actually contemplating suicide or at least horrific injury to onesself to avoid school.

Things that happened to me then affect me to this day. I have anxiety problems, I am frightened to speak to new people, I spend the vast majority of my time alone and I don't believe I will ever be comfortable in social situations. I also carry, I am afraid to say, grudges against certain types of people, namely the very, very popular and those who can apparently abuse and assault people while at school and get away with it.

It makes me angry to the point of tears that the abuse suffered by children at school is not taken seriously. We all agree that assault is wrong when it involves adults, or when it involves adults abusing children (although I do notice that the cute and popular children get more sympathy for this) but abuse between those in schools is described as "teasing", as if it is not important, as if it does not ruin lives. This is an attitude I find hateful. Abuse is abuse. If someone turned me upside down and tore off my underwear, I wouldn't consider it a mere "embarassment", I would consider it sexual assault, since that is exactly what it is.

It seems to me that a lot of people in the world (including, it seems, some on this board) think that certain kinds of children and teenagers deserve to be bullied and abused. It seems to me that one is only allowed to be a victim if one can display adequate levels of attractiveness, a decent amount of presentable friends and a tendency to be pathetically grateful for any patronising "help" people like to offer. Ugly, scowling, awkward, bitter people are percieved to deserve all they get because they don't look pretty even after you've cleaned them up.

Maybe I'm just an evil person who deseved the misery I suffered at school (I'm sure some of you think that) but since book 5 there is nothing, absolutely nothing that will make me like Sirius or James as characters, even tragic hero characters. The "saving Snape's life" bit makes me curl up inside with rage. How can anyone think this was anything other than a hateful publicity stunt? I cannot believe anything now except that the pair of them had planned it together. And then, as Snape had said, maybe James got cold feet. Or maybe they had planned a "I'll lead him into danger and then you save him, then he'll never be able to touch us again" thing. I do not believe that one would actually attempt something like murder - and that is what it might have been, that is what Sirius had supposedly aimed to do, and showed not a shred of remorse for in PoA - without the prior knowledge of the other. They work in packs, bullies. There's safety and credibility in numbers.

We are talking about assault and attempted murder here, not "teasing". I would not even begin to imagine that someone who has the capacity to plan a murder as a teenager could merely "grow out of it", nor that they are a good person. The fact that they were popular says so much to me. When I was at school, it was plain to me that most of the teachers preferred the popular students. Popular students are percieved to be better because they are popular and that is all there is to it.

I could go on but I'll save your spite. I'm clearly in a minority of one with my opinions, but I will say again that Sirius and James, as characters, seemed to me to be the most hateful things in the novels.

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

There's something to be said for JKR, she doesn't write things as black and white, or green and gold as the case may be. James Potter, at age 15, was shown as a highly dislikeable character. He was vain, conceited, basically a real nark, and even Harry was disillusioned (no pun intended ;)) by his father's behaviour.

Now I would never go as far as to say Harry is as cruel as James obviously was at that time, but then, James might not have been if he had been through what Harry has. And the dear lad obviously reformed. But wasn't it interesting to see a great deal of Harry's recklessness, unwillingness to accept the way he was being treated, and downright stubborness in James?

One of the reasons Harry was so disgusted by what he saw in Snape's memory in the pensieve, I am sure, was that he could see the not-so-desirable similarities between himself and his father. A certain arrogance that was shockingly close to home. I say this because at the beginning of the book, was not Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself that he was better than his friends, that he had seen more, that they could never understand? What do you guys think? Am I wrong?


Well, in a way, Harry was correct in thinking that he saw more than his friends. He did see more and go through more. He's not necassarily better than them, but he was only thinking these thoughts because he was angry. He doesn't think those things on a normal basis. You have to remember that Harry was in a bad place throughout much of this book, and most of his arrogance is based on anger.

James was conceited prat, sure, but he did grow up. I can't really say the same for Harry because he's generally nicer than his father was. He never picked on people for fun for teased his friends. He and his father are similar, but they're still very different.

[Tarawyn]

I don't think that James saved Snape's life as a publicity stunt. However much of a jerk and idiot he was - and I can't imagine him being too much worse - I don't think he would have gone out and saved someone's life for publicity. To me, him sacrificing himself to give his wife and kid a few moments more to live when they were all going to die anyway sort of verifies that. I can't say why. He loved Lily and Harry and definitely didn't love Snape, but he wasn't dying for Snape and he wasn't in danger. And I think - more than think - that stunt was a sort of wake-up call for James... Not in hating Snape, but in being a complete idiot about it.

I can see Sirius telling Snape to go off to the Willow, provoked or maybe unprovoked - that's his temperment, that's his personality. Odd little theory here, but maybe Sirius loathed Snape because Sirius was stuck in a Dark family and wanted out, and Snape wasn't but carried the Dark Arts around with him? Stupid thing to get angry about, but I can imagine Sirius hating someone because they wanted and had something he couldn't stand.

I give James the benefit of doubt, though. You can imagine that he grew up a little, from what we heard from Sirius and Remus and from his almost pointless self-sacrifice. When did he start going out with Lily? 7th year? So if this happened in 6th year, like I think it did, James got a little more mature and started going out with Lily after that. And it's obvious that Sirius never really got over it, something that, I think, you can partially credit to Azkaban....

As for Harry resembling his father somewhat in arrogance... There's a little resemblance in that vein, but not much. I agree with what WeasleyIsOurKing said. Also, I think that Harry is proud, and was a little arrogant in book 5, but mostly borderline. For the most part, Harry keeps his pride inside. He's hurt when he doesn't get the prefect badge, but he gets over it, congratulates Ron, and he's sickened with himself because of his thoughts... even if he makes note of the badge quite a bit after that, he lets it lie and doesn't let resentment build. That's not arrogance. Maybe Harry's disgusted because he thinks it is?

[Ecthelion]

I don't think that James saved Snape's life as a publicity stunt. However much of a jerk and idiot he was - and I can't imagine him being too much worse - I don't think he would have gone out and saved someone's life for publicity. To me, him sacrificing himself to give his wife and kid a few moments more to live when they were all going to die anyway sort of verifies that. I can't say why. He loved Lily and Harry and definitely didn't love Snape, but he wasn't dying for Snape and he wasn't in danger. And I think - more than think - that stunt was a sort of wake-up call for James... Not in hating Snape, but in being a complete idiot about it.

The way I think we need to view James as is a cocky Harry. Same morals, ethics, and formidable wizarding skills....just in a different guise. James would never save Snape's life as a publicity stunt. The situation in which Snape was heading towards his death was dire and serious. James was mature enough at that point to realize it and do the correct action. In the pensive scene we saw James get serious, just after Snape hit him with a jinx that made a bloody gash....he stopped all the trash-talk and got done what needed to get done....disarm and defeat Snape. I see no reason why that same kind of serious manner can't be put into another situation.

I can see Sirius telling Snape to go off to the Willow, provoked or maybe unprovoked - that's his temperment, that's his personality. Odd little theory here, but maybe Sirius loathed Snape because Sirius was stuck in a Dark family and wanted out, and Snape wasn't but carried the Dark Arts around with him? Stupid thing to get angry about, but I can imagine Sirius hating someone because they wanted and had something he couldn't stand.

Hmm...I sure some variant of that is a contributing factor of Sirius' hate for Snape. Perhaps he saw Snape embracing the very arts and concepts in which he had fled from so experienced a thin connection that was quickly replaced with pure distaste? I don't know, but that's a really good theory Tarawyn.

I give James the benefit of doubt, though. You can imagine that he grew up a little, from what we heard from Sirius and Remus and from his almost pointless self-sacrifice. When did he start going out with Lily? 7th year? So if this happened in 6th year, like I think it did, James got a little more mature and started going out with Lily after that. And it's obvious that Sirius never really got over it, something that, I think, you can partially credit to Azkaban....

I'm sorry, but what are you pretaining to here? I'm somewhat lost :shrug:

As for Harry resembling his father somewhat in arrogance... There's a little resemblance in that vein, but not much. I agree with what WeasleyIsOurKing said. Also, I think that Harry is proud, and was a little arrogant in book 5, but mostly borderline. For the most part, Harry keeps his pride inside. He's hurt when he doesn't get the prefect badge, but he gets over it, congratulates Ron, and he's sickened with himself because of his thoughts... even if he makes note of the badge quite a bit after that, he lets it lie and doesn't let resentment build. That's not arrogance. Maybe Harry's disgusted because he thinks it is?

His values and morals are in a precarious balance with his situations. It is only natural for you to experience some misgivings and accusations when you know you should have gotton something but you didn't. I myself was probably experiencing more anguish then he when seeing Ron had gotton the Prefect badge and not Harry. I felt that he dealt with it rather well. Obviously, different situations yield different reactions...Harry's no exception. Some has taken him quite some time to work out but in the end it's always ended on a relatively good note.

What I think the only difference there is between Harry and James is the what they've been through. Naturally, having your parents, compatriot, godfather, and friends relatives be killed, and having no choice but to kill or be killed by the most feared wizard of all time......is going to have a detrimental affect. James had no such thing to humble him into the solemn, pensive form Harry is so known for. Although made of the same material, they were cased in different environments...and were irrevocably made to be different individuals. Harry needs to see this, that they are both made of the same stuff. And when Harry finally realizes that both of their truths and ethics hold evident, then he can truly respect, and look up with pride, on his father.

[Tarawyn]

The way I think we need to view James as is a cocky Harry. Same morals, ethics, and formidable wizarding skills....just in a different guise. James would never save Snape's life as a publicity stunt. The situation in which Snape was heading towards his death was dire and serious. James was mature enough at that point to realize it and do the correct action. In the pensive scene we saw James get serious, just after Snape hit him with a jinx that made a bloody gash....he stopped all the trash-talk and got done what needed to get done....disarm and defeat Snape. I see no reason why that same kind of serious manner can't be put into another situation.

I think there are more differences between Harry and James than cockiness, which you can credit to their upbringings and maybe just their personalities. Harry is more reserved and more quiet. He isn't fond of attention. In some ways he's more mature than James was, in some ways I think he's less mature, and yeah, there are some striking similarities with a little pride and a little recklessness in book 5.

I'm sorry, but what are you pretaining to here? I'm somewhat lost :shrug:

It's random speculation. I was thinking of how James matured - the person we saw in Snape's worst memory is a different person than the one who saved Snape, and, I think, a different person than the one who started to go out with Lily. And that entire blurb is to a post about how someone thought James and Sirius planned Snape's life threat.


His values and morals are in a precarious balance with his situations. It is only natural for you to experience some misgivings and accusations when you know you should have gotton something but you didn't. I myself was probably experiencing more anguish then he when seeing Ron had gotton the Prefect badge and not Harry. I felt that he dealt with it rather well. Obviously, different situations yield different reactions...Harry's no exception. Some has taken him quite some time to work out but in the end it's always ended on a relatively good note.

I agree with what you said... I do think this is a sign of pride, though. He's proud of his accomplishments, and what he's done, and what he deserves. He's not arrogant about it, like James was.

What I think the only difference there is between Harry and James is the what they've been through.

Which is a gigantic difference, when you think of it. I think it's the reason why they ended up being so different. Harry also could have been like Snape, but he wasn't, and I think he shares a few qualities with Snape. Harry's upbringing and what came with it build a personality based on things James didn't dip into until he was a teen. A lot of willpower, a little bit of luck, and some intervention kept Harry from being a second Snape. I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think that's the way to put it.

Harry needs to see this, that they are both made of the same stuff. And when Harry finally realizes that both of their truths and ethics hold evident, then he can truly respect, and look up with pride, on his father.

I agree. But before that happens, I think he has to come to terms with Snape's memory yet again - after Sirius' death, he may try to deny the other parts of James' character. I think we were starting to see a little respect and pride, mid-OWLs, but after the sequence with Sirius...

[Ecthelion]

It's random speculation. I was thinking of how James matured - the person we saw in Snape's worst memory is a different person than the one who saved Snape, and, I think, a different person than the one who started to go out with Lily. And that entire blurb is to a post about how someone thought James and Sirius planned Snape's life threat.

Hmm...that's an interesting thought. I myself see it as the same person....but one whom takes different situations...differently. More in a literal sense of course. More or less that James knows when to be cocky and when not to be. When to go forward and when to step back. It's all in there, it's just that at that particular point in his life the rash side of his behavior was strongly conflicting with his maturing truths and morals so his personality is that much more confusing.

Which is a gigantic difference, when you think of it. I think it's the reason why they ended up being so different. Harry also could have been like Snape, but he wasn't, and I think he shares a few qualities with Snape. Harry's upbringing and what came with it build a personality based on things James didn't dip into until he was a teen. A lot of willpower, a little bit of luck, and some intervention kept Harry from being a second Snape. I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think that's the way to put it.

Exactly. Harry shares a unique and rough backhandling of family matters with Snape and they can't deny it. I sometimes think that it was this communal connection that was fostering a possible respect after a few occlumency lessons. Ah! Just had a thought. I think that Occlumence could have been the best thing that could have reconciled their hate for each other. Snape knows of Harry's treatment....But Harry doesn't know Snape's....But eventually, by the gleening of each other's memories, they refresh it in their minds and learn of it....I think it was this conscience and subconscience awareness of each others plight that ultimately started forming the bond that was becoming apparent. Could Dumbledore have foreseen this?

Ah! Believe me, I know that isn't the right wording! I literally sat at the screen for about two minutes trying to word it right.....When I think of it I'll race back here and post it though :) But I'm glad you get the drift though.

I agree. But before that happens, I think he has to come to terms with Snape's memory yet again - after Sirius' death, he may try to deny the other parts of James' character. I think we were starting to see a little respect and pride, mid-OWLs, but after the sequence with Sirius...

Absolutely. Upon acknowledgement or newly-aquired respect for his father, I think he'll have to talk or go over the whole pensive scene with somebody, hopefully lupin or even hermione. Harry has a tendancy to need to talk things over in order to fully comprehend them.

And yes, I also feld that grudging respect start to form with Snape and Harry. I'm eagerly awaiting their next direct meeting myself.

[wiccan_gurly]

One of the reasons Harry was so disgusted by what he saw in Snape's memory in the pensieve, I am sure, was that he could see the not-so-desirable similarities between himself and his father. A certain arrogance that was shockingly close to home. I say this because at the beginning of the book, was not Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself that he was better than his friends, that he had seen more, that they could never understand? What do you guys think? Am I wrong?:sigh:

[eggplant]

>Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself
>that he was better than his friends, that he had
>seen more, that they could never understand

I don’t see anything wrong with Harry thinking he has accomplished more than his friends because the fact of the matter is, it’s true, he has. Five times the most powerful and feared dark wizard of all time has tried to kill Harry and five times he has failed. By this time if Harry didn’t start to think there must be something unusual about me he would have to be very stupid. He doesn’t rub it in his friend’s faces but the thought would have to occur to him, I don’t see how it could not. Harry isn’t arrogant he’s realistic.

Eggplant

[eggplant]

>There is no getting around the fact that he
>screamed at his friends that he was better
>than him. You can debate the causes till
>you're blue in the...er....fingers (?) but it
>was an arrogant thing to say

It’s easy to get around it because Harry didn’t say it, he thought it. Can’t you let poor Harry be free at least inside his own head, especially when what he’s thinking is quite true?

Eggplant

[gryffindor g1rl]

I think that , yes, Harry was shocked because he saw some of himself in James.

[gryffindor g1rl]

I think that , yes, Harry was shocked because he saw some of himself in James. I'm not saying that Harry was as mean as James, probably because of the things that Harry has experienced. I was also shoked because, as another person has said, Harry was always told how wonderful James was and to see for once that Snape was not the bad guy would have also been a bit of a disapointment. I hope that after seeing the real James, Harry will be careful not to end up as arrogant as his father.

I also just realised that some of the things Snape has said about Harrys father in the past should have been believed and taken more seriously because...Snape may have been right in some ways.

[shanobyl]

harry didnt believe snape because he thought that snape was just being a mean old bat.. but if someone like say dumbledore has told harry, he would have believed it.

[rotsiepots]

I think that , yes, Harry was shocked because he saw some of himself in James. I'm not saying that Harry was as mean as James, probably because of the things that Harry has experienced. I was also shoked because, as another person has said, Harry was always told how wonderful James was and to see for once that Snape was not the bad guy would have also been a bit of a disapointment. I hope that after seeing the real James, Harry will be careful not to end up as arrogant as his father.

I also just realised that some of the things Snape has said about Harrys father in the past should have been believed and taken more seriously because...Snape may have been right in some ways.

I think it's safe to assume that James Potter mellowed as he got older. Snape's Worst Memory was of a 15-year-old James Potter and I don't think it's fair to judge James's character based on this once incident. Most 15-year-old boys are impossible in some respect, so as he got older his ego probably deflated and he "got over himself" (so to speak).

I'm sure James was a wonderful person. Snape could probably never come to grips with the fact that he had changed. He seems the type to hold grudges. ;)

[Puffskein]

I'll disagree strongly with the suggestion that James rescued Snape as a publicity stunt. That would have meant revealing Remus's dark secret, wouldn't it? Snape did have a point when he said that James was saving himself from expulsion, but that's more than Sirius did.

Should we hate James for bullying Snape? In my view, yes - it was unjustifiable. But should we hate him for working for three years to help his friend, winning the heart of the girl who loathed him, defying Voldemort three times, and dying in the attempt to save his wife and son? Absolutely not! Just because Snape was right about him doesn't make everyone else wrong. And in any case, James and Sirius are dead and Snape should realise that hating them won't do any good.

[mystically_mad]

I completely agree. Sure James was a jerk but he did alot of good things as well and Harry does too.

[Discordia]

Ditto. James was wrong to have treated Snape so badly and he saves Snape because he knew it would be his head if something were to happen to him. James was 15 and he grew out of it as he got older. I agree. Snape and Sirius are dead so he needs to get over them bc his tomrnetors are dead and there's nothing that he can do about it so he just needs to move on. I'm sorry about what happened to him but a rotten childhood doesn't justify being wrotten to the whole world. People have their probles, stuff happens but that doesn't mean the world stops turning because something happens to you. Snape needs to forgive and move on. Wallowing in the past isn't going to benefit anyone. His bitternes has put his relationship with Harry on very thin ice and he needs to make amends now before worse happens. His inability to get over the past prevented Harry from learning Occulmency(though it was partly Harr's fault) and he and Harry don't trust eachother. Harry needs to wake up a little about Snape but Snape needs to wake up about Harry also.

[Vigilance]

like, it's just that easy...
You obviously don't have reasons to hate someone, but hate can keep you going when nothing else will. Not that this is a good thing, but that it's not easy to let go. You need to learn to do it.
Who can teach Snape; who's been through **** like he has?
I think Harry might rise above the Dudley and forgive him (and his folks) for being &*@%$#!, showing Snape how to forgive.
But this is just a hope.

[mystically_mad]

I just reread OOTP and Harry was acting like an arrogant prat, which i seemed to have missed the first time. I do believe he will grow out of it however, as he seemed to be heading that way at the very end of the book.

[The Black Adder]

I've been reading through these posts amused by how so many quickly acknowledge that James was a bully at 15 but must have matured and become "a good person" by the time he was 22.

You all seem to forget that it wasn't just Snape James bullied. In the Penseive memory, Lily berates him for "hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can". And Lupin later confirms that James used to "hex people just for the fun of it". Who was it who was actually practicing the Dark Arts? I wonder. This is more than teenage arrogance, guys. This is evil.

Did James grow out of it as you all say? Oh, I imagine he calmed down a bit. At least enough publically to convince Lily to go out with him. But even in the 7th year he was still bullying Snape behind Lily's back. Would she have gone out with him if she'd known? Would she have married him soon after? I find that young girls can be in great denial when it comes to attractive, popular boyfriends. I think at 22 James was likely still a charming and popular jerk.

I do believe that people can change, but I'm not convinced that they change at heart all that quickly. Anyone can be nice to their friends and even put their lives on the line for their loved ones. But how does a person treat their inferiors? How do they treat their enemies? Just food for thought.

The Black Adder

[Natsufan]

i suppose it really shattered his dream off his dad being whiter then white and snape being the evil one all the time. however i can understand his frustration at the start especially his jealousy of ron being made prefect rather than harry. and to be honest he has done more than ron and hermione. yes it did cause him to think he was better than them but he soon got over it.
Sorry, but Harry has NOT done more than Ron and Hermione. If he has got more into the spotlight, it's been out of sheer luck. Call it bad luck, as when his name got into the Goblet of Fire, but it's been luck. Ron didn't fight against the basilisk just because JK threw some convenient stones in the middle, but Ron Weasley is as brave, as intelligent, as hard-working as Harry, and hasn't inherited anything.
Harry wouldn't have got to the Philosopher's Stone without Ron and Hermione. Wouldn't have got to the Basilisk without Ron and Hermione. Was helped by Ron and Hermione during ALL the triwizard tournament. Oh, how great Harry Potter is, that mastered the summoning and stunning charms to use during the tournament! Hermione had to spend lots of hours with him to make him learn the accio, and the same for the stunning charm, just that in this case, besides, poor sidekick Ron Weasley had to be the subject of his stunning.

Harry Potter is by no means better than his friends. I'd rather say Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger are much better as human beings than Harry Potter is. Everything happens to Harry, and he always faces Voldemort, but that is only because JK wants it to be that way. It is a question of scenario, not a question of Harry's bravery, intelligence or goodness being superior to that of their friends. So, Harry may have done lots of things. But he wouldn't have got to one fourth of his way without Ron and Hermione, and besides, he gets all the credit almost always. So he should realize that he isn't that good.

The only thing that saves the character of Harry Potter is that he is not a mean bully as his father. Apart from the tantrums at the beginning of OotP, he knows that he's been lucky in getting away all those times, and he knows he is not better than any of his two friends. Which is the damned truth.

Ah, another thing. Harry's two greatests achievements during fifth year were the DA, and his interview to Rita Skeeter. Whose's ideas, those two? Yep.

And his stubborness and rashness is what got Sirius Black, and could have gotten five of his friends and himself, dead. So I don't think he has DONE anything more than Ron and Hermione. More mischief and rashness, if anything. The only good thing about going to the MoM was that Voldemort appeared and it was made public. Apart from that, it was a tremendous disaster, very short of what it could have been, and Harry's idea.

And it was very good of Harry to realize what a jerk his father was. It would have been better if he had apologized to Snape, but that's understandable. I hope that once Harry has seen that behaviour in his father, he will try to avoid it himself. That's the best thing Harry Potter has, really. That he is a good boy, after all.

[PrtVeela]

Natsufan
Harry Potter is by no means better than his friends. I'd rather say Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger are much better as human beings than Harry Potter is. Everything happens to Harry, and he always faces Voldemort, but that is only because JK wants it to be that way. It is a question of scenario, not a question of Harry's bravery, intelligence or goodness being superior to that of their friends. So, Harry may have done lots of things. But he wouldn't have got to one fourth of his way without Ron and Hermione, and besides, he gets all the credit almost always. So he should realize that he isn't that good.

I don't know if anyone really thinks Harry Potter is 'better' than any of his friends, nor do I think that he would think so. Harry understands that he wouldn't be where he was today with out them. That is why in the beginning of OoTP and throught out the book we see him grappling with his anger twoard them.

The only thing that saves the character of Harry Potter is that he is not a mean bully as his father. Apart from the tantrums at the beginning of OotP, he knows that he's been lucky in getting away all those times, and he knows he is not better than any of his two friends. Which is the damned truth.

Harry's chacter could not be flawless, he could not be this shining example of a human being all the time, or else it would not have been believeable. It is much easier to understand where Harry is coming from, when he is angry, and when he expresses his emotions: because every single one of us has been angry like that as well.

Ah, another thing. Harry's two greatests achievements during fifth year were the DA, and his interview to Rita Skeeter. Whose's ideas, those two? Yep.

Harry is not preoccupied with his acheivments. He has a 'thirst' to prove himself as the sorting hat states in the beginning of the PS. That, however, is partially due to the fact that everyone has this notion of Harry before he even gets to school. They all hold him in a higher esteem, so Harry immediatley felt pressure in living up to this person that so many other people in the wizarding world had created for him. That would make anyone want to 'act the hero'.

And his stubborness and rashness is what got Sirius Black, and could have gotten five of his friends and himself, dead. So I don't think he has DONE anything more than Ron and Hermione. More mischief and rashness, if anything. The only good thing about going to the MoM was that Voldemort appeared and it was made public. Apart from that, it was a tremendous disaster, very short of what it could have been, and Harry's idea.

There are many factors that contributed to Sirus's death and could not be blamed on one particualr person. When we think it terms of the book it is easy to disassociate ourselves, but, we must ask what would we do if we believed one of our family members were in mortal danger. You would act irrational, and you would go to any lengths to save them. It is a flaw that is inate in almost every human.

[wavy]

I agree I think maybe Harry was shocked by what he saw because maybe he did see some of his father in himself.

I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe someone addressed this, but I disagree here.

I think Harry was shocked because this scene contradicted the reverred and frankly unrealistic idea of his father many gave him. They never let him see his father as a human being with flaws, which is sort of understandable - most people who love someone don't go around trashing them after they're dead.

But more importantly, I think Harry's reaction shows his mother's personality in him more clearly than we've really seen before in the series. His response to the incident was much the same as hers - disgust. And interestingly, Snape says something that seems to suggest that HE suspects Harry would find it amusing - he expects Harry would react just like James (just like most people say they see James in Harry). But Snape doesn't really let Harry hang around long enough to find out that Harry's reaction was very different.

Harry got no pleasure whatsoever in seeing a teacher he truly hates who truly torments him "get his." No malicious sense of glee or "he got what he deserved." He was just disgusted.

I think Harry having his mother's sense of justice is something that will be important to the rest of the series, and to me, this scene is a big indication of that side of his personality.

[AllanTheGreat]

I think Harry should not base his father's whole personality on this particular event he witnessed through Snape's pensieve. People who are like this in high school generally grow up to be normal, caring adults and parents.

Of course, if we were to see it only from the 15 years of age POV, this looks totally disgusting. I mean, his dad was a bully! But really, these were James' teenage years, years in which your actions don't really determine what kind of person you will be in the future.

They never let him see his father as a human being with flaws, which is sort of understandable - most people who love someone don't go around trashing them after they're dead.
I agree completely. Although I also think that the fact that you don't speak ill about a death person has nothing to do with it. People who knew James know that what you do in your teenage years is just nonsense and crazyness, and they speak of his personality as they knew it after he matured.

[Darkillness]

I think that when Harry saw Snape's worst memory, he was disgusted with the behavior and arrogance, and a teenie part of him saw himself becoming arrogant. Those explosions he had at Hermione and Ron were definitely partly a result of teenage angst, all the emotion involved in seeing someone die, possibly a result of Voldemort's connection, and predispositioned arrogance. I'd like to point out one thing different between Harry and James: he has not EVER pointed out Quidditch as something he's better at then Ron and Hermione in one of his outbursts, even though he clearly is, being the youngest player in a century and all. James does, not directly by saying "I'm good at Quidditch" but by ruffling his hair and playing with the Snitch. Which shows that while Harry has random bursts of anger (which I think are understandable, although Ron and Hermione sometimes don't get the credit they deserve) he knows what truly matters. As people have pointed out above, he simply can not be a shining knight because he's human, and frankly, sometimes I get a little frustrated when people say "oh he said that and did this and that makes him horrible" because he's (say it out loud) human. How many people have said things they immediately regretted, or how about that out of body experience where you keep on going, but you think, "this isn't me, why am I doing this?" You don't think your a horrible person and tar yourself forever, do you? (I sincerely hope not.) You forget and move on, and some things take longer than others, as they should. Point is, nobody's perfect, and everyone has their own little weaknesses, and one of Harry's minor ones is arrogance, while James's huge one is arrogance. So let's remember that Harry is not only human, but a growing one, and growing requires mistakes to be a stronger person all around.

[charredtwilight]

I think Harry learning his father wasn't perfect marks a major step in the process of his growing up. Everyone has that time in their life when they come to the realization that those around them aren't perfect, their parents make mistakes, and they will too. It is this that makes us who we are, and how so many others in this thread have pointed out, human. People change as they grow up. The teenage years are infamous for testing boundaries and self-discovery. I think it's very important JKR showed this side of James; it makes him a more well-rounded character and provides a previously hidden aspect of his character. Harry needs to see some mistakes made by those he admires, especially his father of whom he only knows good things. I think this helped Harry see what he could turn into if he let his emotions from the beginning of the book cloud his judgment, and, as a result, he shyed away from that.

[Natsufan]

I don't think self-reliance is a form of arrogance - not in Harry's case at least. He's self-reliant because he has to be, if he wasn't he'd put everyone he cares about in danger. As it is he already does.

As for thinking he's better than Ron I'd argue that he is and proved it time and time again and his thoughts were based truly on facts not a clouded or biased view of himself or his achievements.

And he completely neglected Snape because of who Snape is. Snape is entirely undesirable, he doesn't give any incentive for Harry to talk to him and doesn't in any way act like a member of the Order. As the reader it's easy to look at him as the bad guy and that opinion is often deserved.
Harry is NOT better than Ron, for goodness' sake. Harry has the good-bad luck of being in the middle of everything, but wouldn't have got out of half the thing he's gone through without Ron and Hermione. Remember Ron's help in finding the Philosopher's Stone and the Chamber of Secrets? Remember Ron enduring stunning charms so the heroic Harry could win the Triwizard Tournament? If anything, they are just as good as each other. As for me, I much prefer Ron because he's worked hard for everything he has, while Harry has had many things come up on him. And many of those (sorry, I meant ALL of those) solved with the unacknowledged help of Ron and Hermione. To say that Harry is "better" than any of the members of the trio is an overstatement. He is no better than Neville Longbottom. Who is, by the way, one of the greatest characters JK has created. Sorry, but I don't like "chosen" or predestinated heroes. I love the ones who work their way out. And Ron, Hermione and Neville are those type of guys.

But, then again, Harry Potter's best trait is that he is a good boy at heart.

I think that James in particular has been treated unfairly. Pretty much everyone has said that he's extremely arrogant and that they no longer respect him as much as they did.

However whenever I sit down and analyse my thoughts about James I come back to one thing his friendship with Remus. If James was such a bad person and thought of himself as being better than everyone else then surely he would've looked down his nose at a werewolf. That in itself is one thing we should bear in mind when looking at James, sure he might have been arrogant and yet at times that can be a good characteristic to have. I still think we shouldn't judge James actions until we know more of the backstory about the James/Snape rivalry because if I remember correctly Snape was in a gang of Slytherins and most of them became Death Eaters, in the flashback though he had no one. I suspect they were older than he was and the rivalry between James and Snape came to be when Snape was very able to fight back.
Try as hard as you can, but James had no **** reason to attack Snape TWO to ONE just "because he exists". James lovers are trying to justify him, and Snape lovers are trying to undermine him. The fact is that if you count only what you can read in the books, Snape lovers have all the reasons.

The key question to ask when considering James actions is "What did Snape do to deserve this?"

James says that Snape deserves because "it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean..." but this is out of character because James, Sirius and Peter are best friends with a werewolf and these are one of the most feared beasts in the wizarding world. What makes Snape any worse? What has he done that makes James speak of him as he does? James doesn't act this way for the sake of it but for a specific reason. People should stop saying "I can't believe how terrible James was" and start saying "Well what the hell did Snape do in the first place?" because unless I've completely missing the point of things thats what JK is building us up for.
Now we come to the point of arrogance. Sirius Black had told Harry that Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts, and James DETESTED the Dark Arts. So the all-righteous James, as he was a "good" wizard, decided he had the "right" to punish Snape for being fascinated with something he hated. That shows his self-centredness and his arrogance. In the occlumancy classes, Harry saw some memories of Snape being mistreated at home. Abused children try by all means to become "powerful" so they can stop the abuse the sooner the better. But, of course, popular, attractive James Potter and Sirius Black wouldn't sink so low to try to understand the motives for Snape to like the Dark Arts. They were the "good", and he was the "bad", ugly, nasty, unpopular guy, and that was all there was to it. Free leave to jinx him and humiliate him in public.

As for what you say about the Malfoy guys... Though I find Lucius really evil (trying to kill eleven year old girls counts as wicked), I don't think Draco has ever been as hurting, humiliating and overall nasty, in any of his attacks, as James was in that attack to Snape.

And then the question had to remain "What is so bad about Snape's existance?" James and Sirius had no problems being mates with a werewolf, a being extremely dangerous and who could've left them all with the same condition. That's an inconsistancy if you ask me and there's more to it than just Snape being bullied because James didn't like him.
Sirius said it: because Snape liked the Dark Arts. The point is, when you are ARROGANT, and you think you are right, you believe you can hurt people as much as you can, because they "deserve" it. I think that's what happened with James. I can't understand why no one in that damned school worries about their pupils' backgrounds and tries to help them overcome what's wrong in them. Besides, they get all the racists and classist son and daughters and put them together in the same place. Wonderful. I can't blame ANY of the Slytherins by their behaviour so far. The **** House System and Snape's ridiculous favoritism is calling for it.

[LuvHP_001]

There's something to be said for JKR, she doesn't write things as black and white, or green and gold as the case may be. James Potter, at age 15, was shown as a highly dislikeable character. He was vain, conceited, basically a real nark, and even Harry was disillusioned (no pun intended ;)) by his father's behaviour.

Now I would never go as far as to say Harry is as cruel as James obviously was at that time, but then, James might not have been if he had been through what Harry has. And the dear lad obviously reformed. But wasn't it interesting to see a great deal of Harry's recklessness, unwillingness to accept the way he was being treated, and downright stubborness in James?

One of the reasons Harry was so disgusted by what he saw in Snape's memory in the pensieve, I am sure, was that he could see the not-so-desirable similarities between himself and his father. A certain arrogance that was shockingly close to home. I say this because at the beginning of the book, was not Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself that he was better than his friends, that he had seen more, that they could never understand? What do you guys think? Am I wrong?

I have answered this many times before and i will say this again, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE! :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :tu: :tu:

[Natsufan]

I am angry at a lot of the replies in this thread.

Firstly, the unpleasant attitude towards those who are bullied. To sidetrack a bit, I was very, very, very unpopular at school. I don't remember much about it - I think I blocked a lot of it out since I'm only 21 now - but I think anyone can agree that things have become dreadful when one is actually contemplating suicide or at least horrific injury to onesself to avoid school.

Things that happened to me then affect me to this day. I have anxiety problems, I am frightened to speak to new people, I spend the vast majority of my time alone and I don't believe I will ever be comfortable in social situations. I also carry, I am afraid to say, grudges against certain types of people, namely the very, very popular and those who can apparently abuse and assault people while at school and get away with it.

It makes me angry to the point of tears that the abuse suffered by children at school is not taken seriously. We all agree that assault is wrong when it involves adults, or when it involves adults abusing children (although I do notice that the cute and popular children get more sympathy for this) but abuse between those in schools is described as "teasing", as if it is not important, as if it does not ruin lives. This is an attitude I find hateful. Abuse is abuse. If someone turned me upside down and tore off my underwear, I wouldn't consider it a mere "embarassment", I would consider it sexual assault, since that is exactly what it is.

It seems to me that a lot of people in the world (including, it seems, some on this board) think that certain kinds of children and teenagers deserve to be bullied and abused. It seems to me that one is only allowed to be a victim if one can display adequate levels of attractiveness, a decent amount of presentable friends and a tendency to be pathetically grateful for any patronising "help" people like to offer. Ugly, scowling, awkward, bitter people are percieved to deserve all they get because they don't look pretty even after you've cleaned them up.

Maybe I'm just an evil person who deseved the misery I suffered at school (I'm sure some of you think that) but since book 5 there is nothing, absolutely nothing that will make me like Sirius or James as characters, even tragic hero characters. The "saving Snape's life" bit makes me curl up inside with rage. How can anyone think this was anything other than a hateful publicity stunt? I cannot believe anything now except that the pair of them had planned it together. And then, as Snape had said, maybe James got cold feet. Or maybe they had planned a "I'll lead him into danger and then you save him, then he'll never be able to touch us again" thing. I do not believe that one would actually attempt something like murder - and that is what it might have been, that is what Sirius had supposedly aimed to do, and showed not a shred of remorse for in PoA - without the prior knowledge of the other. They work in packs, bullies. There's safety and credibility in numbers.

We are talking about assault and attempted murder here, not "teasing". I would not even begin to imagine that someone who has the capacity to plan a murder as a teenager could merely "grow out of it", nor that they are a good person. The fact that they were popular says so much to me. When I was at school, it was plain to me that most of the teachers preferred the popular students. Popular students are percieved to be better because they are popular and that is all there is to it.

I could go on but I'll save your spite. I'm clearly in a minority of one with my opinions, but I will say again that Sirius and James, as characters, seemed to me to be the most hateful things in the novels.
I ABSOLUTELY agree with you! Though not so bad as it seems to have been your lot, I was also bullied at school, and after watching the pensieve scene I couldn't help but to love Snape and HATE James and Sirius. I just can't help it.

As for the Malfoys, having been bullied myself, I have sympathy for Draco. Why? Because one of the bullies at my school, Roberto, was the latest son of a very rich man. He never saw his father or mother and was obviously undereducated, underwatched and underloved, if those words exist. Roberto was never the humiliating, hurting bully others were. He just went through the class hitting some heads to get attention. Yet sometimes he was nice, unselfish and sympathetic. At that time I used to hate him. But when I saw him as a grown up man, I saw a very good person at heart, with great deficits on his education, and with little prospects for the future. As I am not Snape, I don't go bullying other people through the world, and have easily forgiven Roberto, because NOW I see he was just trying to get attention. But then again, Roberto wasn't humiliating.

As a bullied person myself, I have endured worse attacks than the trifle little hits Roberto gave. The kind of attacks that humiliate you and leave you angry, frustrated and sad with yourself, because you were unable to defend yourself. And the James-Sirius attack on Snape was exactly of that kind. It wasn't physical enough for them to get into trouble, but psychologically devastating. I don't buy the "he grew out of it" stuff. I don't think James Potter grew out of it as much as Snape has done. In fact, I believe the best thing Dumbledore has ever done for Harry is to put him to endure the bullying of the Dursleys. Harry will NEVER become as his father, much less now that he's seen the pensieve scene.

But I totally agree with you, MagicGeek. People are so willing to forgive the handsome, popular, goodatsportsandstudies guys. People are even willing to find evidence from nowhere that proves that "Snape had attacked them first", despite the books clearly explain that it wasn't the case.

As for me, I still hate James Potter. Faced Voldemort three times, blahblah, yes, but if his fighting the evil and siding with the good gave him leave to hurt whoever he considered "lower", for me he is as good as Lord Voldemort in his self-righteousness. Oh, yes, he didn't kill people. But what he did to Snape was torture, whether his fans want to admit it or not. The only good thing James Potter has in his stock to my eyes is the fact that he died protecting his wife and son. Other than that, nothing special.

One thing, however, I don't like about Rowling is that she has made Snape the bullied bully. I have been bullied myself and I'd rather chop my own arm before I did the same things to another. I don't find Snape believable on that point.

[LuvHP_001]

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you! Though not so bad as it seems to have been your lot, I was also bullied at school, and after watching the pensieve scene I couldn't help but to love Snape and HATE James and Sirius. I just can't help it.

As for the Malfoys, having been bullied myself, I have sympathy for Draco. Why? Because one of the bullies at my school, Roberto, was the latest son of a very rich man. He never saw his father or mother and was obviously undereducated, underwatched and underloved, if those words exist. Roberto was never the humiliating, hurting bully others were. He just went through the class hitting some heads to get attention. Yet sometimes he was nice, unselfish and sympathetic. At that time I used to hate him. But when I saw him as a grown up man, I saw a very good person at heart, with great deficits on his education, and with little prospects for the future. As I am not Snape, I don't go bullying other people through the world, and have easily forgiven Roberto, because NOW I see he was just trying to get attention. But then again, Roberto wasn't humiliating.

As a bullied person myself, I have endured worse attacks than the trifle little hits Roberto gave. The kind of attacks that humiliate you and leave you angry, frustrated and sad with yourself, because you were unable to defend yourself. And the James-Sirius attack on Snape was exactly of that kind. It wasn't physical enough for them to get into trouble, but psychologically devastating. I don't buy the "he grew out of it" stuff. I don't think James Potter grew out of it as much as Snape has done. In fact, I believe the best thing Dumbledore has ever done for Harry is to put him to endure the bullying of the Dursleys. Harry will NEVER become as his father, much less now that he's seen the pensieve scene.

But I totally agree with you, MagicGeek. People are so willing to forgive the handsome, popular, goodatsportsandstudies guys. People are even willing to find evidence from nowhere that proves that "Snape had attacked them first", despite the books clearly explain that it wasn't the case.

As for me, I still hate James Potter. Faced Voldemort three times, blahblah, yes, but if his fighting the evil and siding with the good gave him leave to hurt whoever he considered "lower", for me he is as good as Lord Voldemort in his self-righteousness. Oh, yes, he didn't kill people. But what he did to Snape was torture, whether his fans want to admit it or not. The only good thing James Potter has in his stock to my eyes is the fact that he died protecting his wife and son. Other than that, nothing special.

One thing, however, I don't like about Rowling is that she has made Snape the bullied bully. I have been bullied myself and I'd rather chop my own arm before I did the same things to another. I don't find Snape believable on that point.

same, i'm not too "fond" of James.

[Natsufan]

>Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself
>that he was better than his friends, that he had
>seen more, that they could never understand

I don’t see anything wrong with Harry thinking he has accomplished more than his friends because the fact of the matter is, it’s true, he has. Five times the most powerful and feared dark wizard of all time has tried to kill Harry and five times he has failed. By this time if Harry didn’t start to think there must be something unusual about me he would have to be very stupid. He doesn’t rub it in his friend’s faces but the thought would have to occur to him, I don’t see how it could not. Harry isn’t arrogant he’s realistic.

Eggplant
I am going to lose my fingers typing that Harry HASN'T accomplished anything without help, nor without the help of his friends. The only thing he has done that the other two haven't is see Voldemort back. There is little merit in that, since he had nothing to do with that. About escaping Voldemort, at least with a cold mind he admits that he was just luckier than Cedric. If not for the twin-wands stuff, and for the help of a whole spectral host including his mother, he wouldn't have gotten out of there alive.

As for the other fights against Voldemort, the parts of Ron and Hermione are clearly underrated.

Of course, I understand that an angry 15 year old that has endured what Harry has, would think all that "I am better than him I should be prefect no one counts on me" stuff. Angry people say mean things. But then again, they are not true. Take Ron and Hermione out of the five books and leave Harry alone. Just re-read the books and do that mental exercise. You'll find that Harry doesn't get very far.

As for the prefect badge, I don't like Dumbledore's reason for not giving it to Harry. That he has enough responsibility is not a good reason. I think Harry has broken so many rules that he would be a very bad prefect. Truth be told, so is Ron. I believe that Neville Longbottom would have been the best choice for a prefect, but he wasn't skilled enough before book 5, and now he's missed the chance.

[Picko]

]Harry is NOT better than Ron, for goodness' sake. Harry has the good-bad luck of being in the middle of everything, but wouldn't have got out of half the thing he's gone through without Ron and Hermione. Remember Ron's help in finding the Philosopher's Stone and the Chamber of Secrets? Remember Ron enduring stunning charms so the heroic Harry could win the Triwizard Tournament? If anything, they are just as good as each other. As for me, I much prefer Ron because he's worked hard for everything he has, while Harry has had many things come up on him. And many of those (sorry, I meant ALL of those) solved with the unacknowledged help of Ron and Hermione. To say that Harry is "better" than any of the members of the trio is an overstatement. He is no better than Neville Longbottom. Who is, by the way, one of the greatest characters JK has created. Sorry, but I don't like "chosen" or predestinated heroes. I love the ones who work their way out. And Ron, Hermione and Neville are those type of guys.

But, then again, Harry Potter's best trait is that he is a good boy at heart.

Seems your reasons are based more on the fact that you love Ron than what he's actually done as a character. In CoS Ron did next to nothing, he was stuck behind a wall of rocks. In Azkaban Ron had a broken leg whilst Harry was performed extraordinary magic for a wizard his age. In GoF, Harry throws of the Imperius Curse and duels Lord Voldemort - one suggesting that he's rather powerful magically the other suggesting that he possesses some amazing qualities in general whilst Ron was throwing tantrums because he doesn't have a lot of money. In OotP Harry fights numerous Death Eaters practically as an equal whilst Ron ... well goodness knows what happened to Ron. In short Harry has time and time again showed that he's a superior wizard than Ron and time and time again he's shown that he possesses desirable qualities in far greater quantities than Ron.


Try as hard as you can, but James had no **** reason to attack Snape TWO to ONE just "because he exists". James lovers are trying to justify him, and Snape lovers are trying to undermine him. The fact is that if you count only what you can read in the books, Snape lovers have all the reasons.

I wouldn't be so ignorant as to assume I know all the facts and therefore I would never make grand conclusions about James having no reason to attack Snape. I can only look at the many positive instances of James behaviour and take the tentative stand that he's not a bad bloke.


Now we come to the point of arrogance. Sirius Black had told Harry that Snape was fascinated by the Dark Arts, and James DETESTED the Dark Arts. So the all-righteous James, as he was a "good" wizard, decided he had the "right" to punish Snape for being fascinated with something he hated. That shows his self-centredness and his arrogance. In the occlumancy classes, Harry saw some memories of Snape being mistreated at home. Abused children try by all means to become "powerful" so they can stop the abuse the sooner the better. But, of course, popular, attractive James Potter and Sirius Black wouldn't sink so low to try to understand the motives for Snape to like the Dark Arts. They were the "good", and he was the "bad", ugly, nasty, unpopular guy, and that was all there was to it. Free leave to jinx him and humiliate him in public.

I wouldn't ever consider myself qualified to try and understand the behaviour of a young man who joins a group of murders not long after leaving school. All I do know is that people don't typically go that far unless there is something deeply rooted in their personalities i.e. there was evidence of this behaviour prior to him joining the DEs. People don't exactly just wake up one morning and say "I want to join a group of murdering lunatics" - it doesn't surprise me that James never liked him.

As for what you say about the Malfoy guys... Though I find Lucius really evil (trying to kill eleven year old girls counts as wicked), I don't think Draco has ever been as hurting, humiliating and overall nasty, in any of his attacks, as James was in that attack to Snape.

There are more ways to harm somebody than physically. Malfoy has on occasions turned entire houses against Harry and make no mistake such experiences would be far more harmful than anything we've seen Snape suffer.

[gottaloveLupin]

One of the reasons Harry was so disgusted by what he saw in Snape's memory in the pensieve, I am sure, was that he could see the not-so-desirable similarities between himself and his father. A certain arrogance that was shockingly close to home. I say this because at the beginning of the book, was not Harry raging and treacherously thinking to himself that he was better than his friends, that he had seen more, that they could never understand? What do you guys think? Am I wrong?

Well, in my opinion you are very wrong.
You may be right about James. he was arrogant.
But not Harry. Snape is the one who continuely tells him that he is arrogant like his father was.
Harry is a very good kid.

Harry has in fact seen more than his friends have. And yes, Harry is right, his friends can't understand.
He is the one whose parents have been killed by Voldemort, he is the one that had to live with a popularity that in stead of helping him is highly disturbing him and hurting him.
He is the main target of Voldemort and he is the one who had to face him alone since he was 11.
He was the one who " woke up" in a cemetery , alone , in the dark and had to see Cedric's death and had to see Voldemort's resurrection.
He was the one who stood alone, facing Voldemort, alone, a 14 years old boy. In a cemetery, with the most powerful wizard of all times, surrounded by death Eaters.
Hermione and Ron don't know anything about this. About how is to see death and about how is to face Voldemort. They are even afraid to tell his name. Do you think they will be able to face him?
I don't think so.

and Harry was right in being furious. He informed DD about Voldemort's return, he had to go through hell, he survived once again, and what did he receive in stead? Mistrust and silence.
Not being named prefect was a sign more that DD didn't trust him, that he avoided him and with all that was going on, Harry got furious.

And let's face it: Ron didn't deserve to be named prefect more than Harry did.
And even Hermione thought so. Remember how she reacted. She was very surprised.

Harry behaved very well. He proved that he isn't arrogant.
Yes, he was upset at first, but he didn't bully Ron as the twins did and he tried to convince himself that Ron really deserved to be prefect. And he felt happy for Ron few minutes after.
And he did tell himself that he wasn't better than Ron.
Harry wanted to show Ron and Hr how it was not to be told anything- when Sirius wanted to tell him about the Order- but showed again what a good kid he is and helped HR and Ron.
Harry didn’t bully Ron when he told him that he wanted to be part of the quidditch team. And helped him train.

No, Harry it’s not arrogant at all

[no1 potter fan]

Snape was right he always said that James was arrogant but he said Harry was like James arrogant too. I don't think this is true because he hates malfoy as much as James hated Snape but you don't see Harry dangling Malfoy upsidedown do you? Even though he would deserve it. I don't think Sirius was as bad as James. Remus didn't do anything to stop them perhaps he was to scared or maybe it was because they were freinds.



As for Peter, well he certainly interested me the most. You saw him, he was shreaking with laughter and was amazed by James catching a stupid little snitch. It confuses me even more why he chose to go to voldemort, because he clearly idolised James, so why betray him? Yes yes, he liked the power, he liked to choose the powerfullest bully in the playground. but betray James?! Something tells me he will slowly but surely regret that.

If Peter is one of there "mates" then this shows that what James did wasn't just a one off I bet anything that he has done it loads of time before because Peter goes with the big bulleys in the playground. And judging on what Lilly said "...hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can..." it seems like he tries to curse him all the time he passes him because he diffinately seems to annoy James.



Harry behaved very well. He proved that he isn't arrogant.
Yes, he was upset at first, but he didn't bully Ron as the twins did and he tried to convince himself that Ron really deserved to be prefect. And he felt happy for Ron few minutes after.
And he did tell himself that he wasn't better than Ron.
Harry wanted to show Ron and Hr how it was not to be told anything- when Sirius wanted to tell him about the Order- but showed again what a good kid he is and helped HR and Ron.
Harry didn’t bully Ron when he told him that he wanted to be part of the quidditch team. And helped him train.

No, Harry it’s not arrogant at all

I agree, another thing that James has done that Harry hasn't is dangle Malfoy upside down like james did to Snape.

Snape is wrong saying that Harry is arrogant like his father because he isn't he is correct by saying James is arrogant.

[starlette01350]

I think Harry was more upset because he realized that his father wasn't the great guy he thought he was. I don't think Harry is arrogant at all. He never brags about his quidditch victories (look at how Ron brags after one semi-decent game) or his defeats of Voldemort. If anything, Harry tries to avoid the spotlight while James sought to be in it. And, in fairness to Harry, he has seen and dealt with a lot more than his friends have. I think at this point in his life, he is angry and confused because of his hormones. Also, I think, based on what we currently know, that Malfoy is much more deserving of Harry's anger than Snape is of James'. While James would start fights with Snape, Harry usually just defends himself or his friends. Harry is probably a little confused as well because he wants to believe that Snape is evil and horrible so that he can justify his anger for him, but realizes that maybe Snape was tormented into becoming so bitter and resentful.

[The Black Adder]

I wouldn't ever consider myself qualified to try and understand the behaviour of a young man who joins a group of murders not long after leaving school. All I do know is that people don't typically go that far unless there is something deeply rooted in their personalities i.e. there was evidence of this behaviour prior to him joining the DEs. People don't exactly just wake up one morning and say "I want to join a group of murdering lunatics" - it doesn't surprise me that James never liked him.


It's not unusual that troubled individuals gravitate to extreme movements that promise to solve the "injustices" of the world, hoping to get some justice for their personal victimization. In time, some of the members come to realize there is just as much injustice in these movements, and that it's not the way to try to solve the ills of the world or their personal problems.

[Danluver182]

I think it was just a shock for harry to realize that his father wasn't all everyone said he was. Or maybe he was? The fact is that when people judged James Potter they weren't judging him as a 15 year old child. They were judging the James they knew as a man. Every 15 year old (boy especially) acts like a jerk sometimes. Possibly James and Sirius more that others. Yes they were big headed and yes they were mean to snape. For no good reason. But they were 15 for goodness sakes.
It was good for Harry to see that to let him know that not everyone is perfect....and that actions can have a way of coming back to haunt you. I can't see him hanging Malfoy upside down if Malfoy hadn't done anything to him.
It is true that at the beginning of OotP Harry was thinking that he had done all the work so why was Ron and Hermione being rewarded by being in the middle of all the action? But I don't really think this was arrogance on his part. I think this was him being fed up with not knowing anything. Ron and Hermione even said that they knew he must've been going crazy and it must've been hard on him. And it was. So I don't blame Harry in the least for being upset. Frankly I think it was about time.

[starlette01350]

I am going to lose my fingers typing that Harry HASN'T accomplished anything without help, nor without the help of his friends. The only thing he has done that the other two haven't is see Voldemort back. There is little merit in that, since he had nothing to do with that. About escaping Voldemort, at least with a cold mind he admits that he was just luckier than Cedric. If not for the twin-wands stuff, and for the help of a whole spectral host including his mother, he wouldn't have gotten out of there alive.

As for the other fights against Voldemort, the parts of Ron and Hermione are clearly underrated.

Of course, I understand that an angry 15 year old that has endured what Harry has, would think all that "I am better than him I should be prefect no one counts on me" stuff. Angry people say mean things. But then again, they are not true. Take Ron and Hermione out of the five books and leave Harry alone. Just re-read the books and do that mental exercise. You'll find that Harry doesn't get very far.

As for the prefect badge, I don't like Dumbledore's reason for not giving it to Harry. That he has enough responsibility is not a good reason. I think Harry has broken so many rules that he would be a very bad prefect. Truth be told, so is Ron. I believe that Neville Longbottom would have been the best choice for a prefect, but he wasn't skilled enough before book 5, and now he's missed the chance.

To me, it's not so much that Harry is better than his friends, but that he has seen more than they have. It's not fair to discredit what Harry managed to do in the graveyard against Voldemort. While Harry said it was just luck, it seemed to me that he was embarassed by the attention and didn't want to sound conceited by saying that he was better than Cedric, especially in front of Cho. Harry and his friends have done a lot together, but in the end, it is always Harry who faces Voldemort, so he has actually seen more than they have.

I also don't think Ron was the best choice for prefect. He has stepped out of line nearly as much as Harry and he let Hermione do most of the work. Also, in many cases Ron is just as angry and immature as Harry. He is jealous that Harry is rich and famous, but doesn't realize that Harry's wealth and fame comes because his parents were murdered and many people frequently think he is a lunatic.

[morgiana]

Of course James was arrogant.

Let's take inventory

he was very bright
he was popular
he was handsome
he was magically gifted
he taught himself to be an animagus
he helped make the marauders map (no small feat)

Arrogance is maybe not the most desirable trait in a man but remember he was 15 when we see him in Snape's memory.

[gottaloveLupin]

Sorry, but Harry has NOT done more than Ron and Hermione. If he has got more into the spotlight, it's been out of sheer luck. Call it bad luck, as when his name got into the Goblet of Fire, but it's been luck.

Sorry, but Harry has done more than his friends.
He was the one who killed the basilisk and had the intuition to stab Tom Riddle's diary with the basilisk's tooth.
He was the one who rescued the Sorcerer's stone
he was the one who defeated the Dementors, saving Sirius's life.
He was the one who resisted Voldemort in GOF and informed DD about his resurrection

Call it bad luck? Of course that is bad luck and not luck!
Let's see: Harry has lost his parents when he was a baby.
He lived 11 years with a horrible family. he lived below the stairs. No room on his own. No cloth of his own. he was continually bullied.
He came to Hogwarts where he had to a popularity which has brought him only troubles. He has been constantly bullied by Draco and continually humiliated by Snape. And he has done nothing to deserve such a treatment.
He is the main target of the most evil and powerful wizard of all times.
And now he finds out that he has either to kill voldemort or to be killed by him. And he is only 16.

oh yes, this is definetily luck! How on Earth could I not see this? Harry is such a lucky boy!

Ron didn't fight against the basilisk just because JK threw some convenient stones in the middle, but Ron Weasley is as brave, as intelligent, as hard-working as Harry, and hasn't inherited anything.

This is really funny!
So, in fact ron is the hero of the books. It's only jKR's fault that he didn't put Ron in stead of Harry to face all the dangers and defeat all the enemies. Yes, you are right! JKR how could you do this?
how can you put some stones in front of Ron? He was the one who had to defeat the basilisk. He is the hero!you are so mean for not naming the books Ron Weasley and ......

Ron hasn't inherited anything?
What has Harry inherited? Yes, he has something from Voldemort like the ability to speak snake's language and the ability to see Volemort's thoughts.
But this is it.
harry is brave and good-hearted and smart and extremely talented because he is. he hasn't inherited this from Voldemort. you can't reduce Harry to this.

Yes, Ron is brave and is intelligent, but he isn't as talented as Harry is. He hasn't the same instincts and the same power of concentration, will... In a word: talent.

Harry Potter is by no means better than his friends. I'd rather say Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger are much better as human beings than Harry Potter is. Everything happens to Harry, and he always faces Voldemort, but that is only because JK wants it to be that way. It is a question of scenario, not a question of Harry's bravery, intelligence or goodness being superior to that of their friends. So, Harry may have done lots of things.

no, Harry Potter is probably not better than his friends.
Each of the trio has his qualities. Hermione is the smart one, Harry the talented one and Ron... well, I haven't figured it out yet.

Hermione and Ron better human beings than Harry?
Why?

How have they demonstrated that are better human beings than harry? What has Harry done to prove that he isn't such a good human being?
He has always been caring and considerate.
He has always been nice to Neville and told him that he should trust himself more. He is a good friend. He will risk his life and even give his life to save his friends anytime.
He hasn't bullied anyone.
He helped dobby..
so why are Hermione and ron better human beings than Harry?

And again, silly JKR! She made Harry the main character of the books in stead of Ron!

So, Harry may have done lots of things. But he wouldn't have got to one fourth of his way without Ron and Hermione, and besides, he gets all the credit almost always. So he should realize that he isn't that good.

again, how have i not seen this?
Yes, you are right, harry does receive all the credit.
Nobody knew about the Sorcerer's Stone. That Harry got it.
Nobody knew that Harry had defeated the basilisk.
Nobody knew what had happened with Cedric and how Harry faced Voldemort.
Nobody knew that Harry made a perfect Patronus when he was only 13.

In stead: everyone thought he was Salazar's heir and that he was the one attacking the students.
Everyone thought that he put his name into the globet and that he was an arrogant *******.
Everyone thought that he was a lunatic and a liar and that he hadn't seen Voldemort.
He has been treated like a criminal in COS, like a pathetic, emotional, weak person in GOF because of Rita Skeeter, like an arrogant, spoiled rat in GOF, like a lunatic, liar in OOTP.

Oh, yes, he has been given all the credit.
nobody from the order treats him like a hero either. He wasn't told anything in OOTP, avoided, treated like a small child.

oh yes, he is given all the credit.

"He should realize that he isn't that good?"

Excuse me? Have you read the same OOTP like I have?
He continueally says that he has been helped, that he was lucky, that he isn't that good. That he isn't capacitated to be a DADA teacher.

Harry's two greatests achievements during fifth year were the DA, and his interview to Rita Skeeter. Whose's ideas, those two? Yep.

Oh yes, you are right. The fact that harry at 15 years old thought DADA to more than 10 students, and with great results is not a great achievement. It's nothing.
Again you are so right.
He helped Neville improve greatly his skills and all the others. But this is nothing.

And his stubborness and rashness is what got Sirius Black, and could have gotten five of his friends and himself, dead. So I don't think he has DONE anything more than Ron and Hermione. More mischief and rashness, if anything. The only good thing about going to the MoM was that Voldemort appeared and it was made public. Apart from that, it was a tremendous disaster, very short of what it could have been, and Harry's idea.

Everyone is responsible for his own actions.
ron, hr, Ginny, Neville and luna followed Harry because they wanted to. Harry didn't force them and didn't want all of them to come to him.
And nobody forced Sirius to come to MOM.
But I don't want to go into who is responsible for Sirius' death.

[ianus]

GottaloveLupin is right!

What is wrong with you all, guys? Harry didn't do anything? Things are just happening to him? SO WHAT? Usually things only happen to us, especially when you are in the middle of something that you do not completely understand or know (Let's not forget, Ron has been brought up in a wizard famly, he knows/or should know much more about this world than Harry does, but...)and especially do not control. It's how you react and what you do in such situations what matters, not wheather you actually intended it to happen like that or not. Harry wasn't being arrogant by going to the MOM, he was scared for Sirius, he was overcoming his fear towards Voldemort and the DEs and he was trying to save him. And he was also trying not to endanger his firends, by trying to convince them to stay at Hogwarts. They decide to go, they wanted to go, they went in spite of Harry' expressed wish not to.
And when has Harry been arrogant or uncaring with his friends? Except maybe for some seconds, unspokenly, for which he immediately feels bad. When did you see Harry talking sooooooooooooooo much about a quidditch game being won by him as you see Ron? And do you see Harry reminding him what amiserable player he was/is? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. So why would he be considered arrogant? Just because you prefer Ron? HE also likes Ron, he is his best friend, so what is your problem?

[GodricHollow]

It's like Harry said in either PoA or GoF, (I'm going off memory here, so don't quote me on it)

I don't go looking for trouble, trouble usually finds me.

I mean, yes it's his fault he went after the stone, but like Harry says, I think Dumbledore knew that he and the others were going to go after it, so he taught them just enough to be able to. CoS, one of his best mates had been petrified, wouldn't you try and sort it out so that no-one else got hurt? and don't forget that he was trying to clear his, (and eventually Hagrid's) names. PoA, is someone not allowed to know the truth about his family? I mean could you live with yourself knowing that your godfather was now worse than dead and you could have stopped the Dementors but didn't? GoF, he didn't put his name into the Goblet did he? NO. And once his name was called out he couldn't simply say "No thanks, I'll not do this Tournament," due to the bond between the Tournament and it's contestants. OoTP, he did the right thing, checking back at Grimmauld, and from what he saw he thought that Sirius wasn't in, and admittedly he was stupid to belive that good for nothing elf, who, I belive to be responsible for Sirius' death, NOT Harry, so he went to the DoM to get him back, any person would have done the same thing, unless your crazy...

[Natsufan]

Harry only arrogant in his mind? You are all wisely forgetting the times when Harry see their friend's hands pecked by Hedwig and is glad about that, or even more important, that time when he cruelly reminds Ron of how bad he was doing at quidditch. I don't exactly remember the quote, but Harry really did that at OotP.

Ï'm not saying Harry hasn't done anything. He has done many things. But he hasn't done more than Ron or Hermione. He's been involved in more, true, but not willingly. As I've said before, Harry is a very good boy at heart and knows he's just been lucky. You seem to be the ones who forget.

Picko, about Ron's deeds, apart from having a broken leg in PoA, he's been helping Harry during all his adventures. Ron's abilities at chess helped Harry get to the Philosopher's Stone. Without him, Harry wouldn't have gotten there, full stop. Ron didn't fight the basilisk just because JK threw some stones in the middle, but that's not Ron's fault, he was there with Harry. About seeing Lord Voldemort come back, true, only Harry did that. But it wasn't something that he did, but something that happened to him, and it is mean of him to want recognition for that. Of course, as Harry is NOT really mean, but had had an awful summer, he threw away those thoughts as quickly as he could. As I've said, what I really like of Harry is that in is most lucid moments, (as when Hermione proposed him to create the DA, he acknowledges he's just been lucky). Any other wizard would have died in that encounter with Voldemort. That's why he shouldn't have thought "I am better than Ron because I saw Voldemort come back". If it is for his adventures before Goblet of Fire, on all of them he was assisted by Ron and Hermione. If it is about Goblet of Fire, things there just happened to him, he didn't do anything about that. Of course, it IS normal for any youngling that expects something to be jealous of the one who gets it. But, as someone said, he forgot easily about it.

Things Harry Potter really did in Goblet of Fire? Waiting to rescue all the hostages in the lake, for example. Those are the kind of things in which Harry really makes choices, and in which he proves that he is really a good person at heart. But I insist on this: he hasn't done anything more than Ron of Hermione. Only more things have happened to him. But, to his credit, he admits that, like when he says to Hermione that "I was just lucky, and you're making it like if Diggory had made some mistake..." He KNOWS he has just the bad luck of having everything happening to him, and the good luck of surviving everything. But, no, he is not better than his friend Ron. He is no worse, either. And, of course, he is not the arrogant bully his father was.

About Sirius... I'm not saying it wasn't great moral standard to go help him. That was great, that's the best trait Harry has. But he could have done many other things, just like asking Snape to contact Sirius. Only he couldn't overcome his resentment. That's why I say it was rash. He could have tried many more things than to go directly into the MoM. Of course, the final result was the showup of Voldemort, which was good. But I still believe that he could have done more to prevent getting into that trap. Such as practicing occlumency or apologizing to Snape, or asking helf from someone. I understand that Harry had had an AWFUL year, and wasn't thinking clearly. In fact, I believe that his anger at the end of OotP with everyone comes from his knowledge that he could have avoided it. So, fine, I apologized for what I said about his rashness. Although it IS rashness, it is understandable that a 15 year-old which has had the awful year Harry had, cannot think but in one direction: to help his loved people. It's the same moral fiber that he showed in the lake in Goblet of Fire, just this time it wasn't a watched tournament, but the real life, and things went wrong. Those guys should add a Ravenclaw to their group, they need someone with less courage and more brains.

But, on the point on him being better than Ron, I still disagree. When Harry thinks he is better than Ron (understandable in his circumstances), he is wrong. Luckily, when he is not angry and relaxed, he KNOWS all that, and is happy for Ron.

About Ron speaking too much about quidditch: If you are so understanding with Harry's bitterness through the year, why cannot you be so with Ron? He has never had a proper broom, loves quidditch, has always been compared with no less than five wonderful older brothers, and he's been psychologically crushed during all the quidditch tournament. So, he wins, and is happy and talkative about it. Isn't that understandable, too? Besides, Ron Weasly doesn't need to win a match to chatter incesantly about quidditch. He loves quidditch and speaks a lot about it, it's one of his traits. Remember Viktor Krum, and the conversation with Cho Chang about how long had she been supporting the tornados? That's Ron Weasley. Harry Potter knows he wouldn't have gone too far without him. I just don't know why Harry is the only one that seems to know.

One thing I'll admit: Ron is an AWFUL prefect, wanting to get the Slytherins from his first minute, ignoring his brothers... I don't think, However, that Harry would have been any better, due to the strain he was under during the whole year.

And, Picko: I find insulting that "ignorant" comment about James Potter's behaviour. In the books, it's explicitly said, by both Remus and Sirius, that there had been no reason for the attack. In Sirius words, "They hated each other from the moment they met... Snape was fascinated with the Dark Arts, and James always hated the Dark Arts". As far as we've read, there is no reason for us to believe that James didn't attack first. So sorry if I base my opinions in the books instead of "what ifs". I judge by what's written only.

[Master Bere]

I do think that James was acting arrogant in Snape's memory but I do not agree in harry's arrogance as well, althought in Ootp he acted very angry, stubborn, I've never seen harry making fun of people just except for Draco and we know that draco is not an innocent boy (that I think is something like Snape's case) and I think harry knows that he has done important things and if he ever braged about it was because he was angry and to prove he was worth of trust or consideration but actually I think he has been quite humble of his achievments and does not consider more than his friends

[Natsufan]

I do think that James was acting arrogant in Snape's memory but I do not agree in harry's arrogance as well, althought in Ootp he acted very angry, stubborn, I've never seen harry making fun of people just except for Draco and we know that draco is not an innocent boy (that I think is something like Snape's case) and I think harry knows that he has done important things and if he ever braged about it was because he was angry and to prove he was worth of trust or consideration but actually I think he has been quite humble of his achievments and does not consider more than his friends
I almost totally agree with you, except in the "Harry knows that he has done". Harry knows everything happens to him, and that he's been luckier than Diggory, for example. Except for that little bit, I quite agree with you.

[Picko]

Harry only arrogant in his mind? You are all wisely forgetting the times when Harry see their friend's hands pecked by Hedwig and is glad about that, or even more important, that time when he cruelly reminds Ron of how bad he was doing at quidditch. I don't exactly remember the quote, but Harry really did that at OotP.

Seems sadistic to me not arrogant.

Ï'm not saying Harry hasn't done anything. He has done many things. But he hasn't done more than Ron or Hermione. He's been involved in more, true, but not willingly. As I've said before, Harry is a very good boy at heart and knows he's just been lucky. You seem to be the ones who forget.

And the only way we do more is through involvement. Case in point, if you are locked in a windowless box for your entire life you will achieve nor do little because you are not involved in little. It's the involvement which establishes what one can and cannot do.

Picko, about Ron's deeds, apart from having a broken leg in PoA, he's been helping Harry during all his adventures. Ron's abilities at chess helped Harry get to the Philosopher's Stone. Without him, Harry wouldn't have gotten there, full stop. Ron didn't fight the basilisk just because JK threw some stones in the middle, but that's not Ron's fault, he was there with Harry. About seeing Lord Voldemort come back, true, only Harry did that. But it wasn't something that he did, but something that happened to him, and it is mean of him to want recognition for that. Of course, as Harry is NOT really mean, but had had an awful summer, he threw away those thoughts as quickly as he could. As I've said, what I really like of Harry is that in is most lucid moments, (as when Hermione proposed him to create the DA, he acknowledges he's just been lucky). Any other wizard would have died in that encounter with Voldemort. That's why he shouldn't have thought "I am better than Ron because I saw Voldemort come back". If it is for his adventures before Goblet of Fire, on all of them he was assisted by Ron and Hermione. If it is about Goblet of Fire, things there just happened to him, he didn't do anything about that. Of course, it IS normal for any youngling that expects something to be jealous of the one who gets it. But, as someone said, he forgot easily about it.

Harry still produced a patronus - something which amazed Ministry members when they found out he could do it prior to his fifth year, imagine the amazement that would've confronted him doing it in his third year? But it was just that he could do such advanced magic it was the application of the magic which has continued to be what has set Harry apart from witches and wizards his age. To further emphasise this even Dumbledore appears to be in awe of what Harry has done and coped with - he's no average boy and has and will no doubt continue to prove this.

Things Harry Potter really did in Goblet of Fire? Waiting to rescue all the hostages in the lake, for example. Those are the kind of things in which Harry really makes choices, and in which he proves that he is really a good person at heart. But I insist on this: he hasn't done anything more than Ron of Hermione. Only more things have happened to him. But, to his credit, he admits that, like when he says to Hermione that "I was just lucky, and you're making it like if Diggory had made some mistake..." He KNOWS he has just the bad luck of having everything happening to him, and the good luck of surviving everything. But, no, he is not better than his friend Ron. He is no worse, either. And, of course, he is not the arrogant bully his father was.

He also crucially managed to throw off completely the Imperius Curse, a curse so potent that it carries a lifetime in Azkaban for using it and a curse which even a very powerful wizard in Barty Crouch Snr couldn't throw off without completely losing the plot. Harry's achievements in GoF are arguably his best to date - which is no small feat. Harry doesn't survive merely because of luck, he still requires the capacity to be in that position in the first place.

But, on the point on him being better than Ron, I still disagree. When Harry thinks he is better than Ron (understandable in his circumstances), he is wrong. Luckily, when he is not angry and relaxed, he KNOWS all that, and is happy for Ron.

As a wizard he almost is inarguably superior, as a person I identify more closely and respect Harry's attributes far more but recognise and respect that others would disagree and prefer what they recognise in Ron. I'm also under no illusions that nobody nor any entity is qualified to claim that one person is better than another overall. I would however argue that individual points can and should be analysed and I say without doubt that I consider Harry to be a superior wizard to all in his current year level because unlike all the others he has applied his magic successful in the real world, which is really the only place it matters.

And, Picko: I find insulting that "ignorant" comment about James Potter's behaviour. In the books, it's explicitly said, by both Remus and Sirius, that there had been no reason for the attack. In Sirius words, "They hated each other from the moment they met... Snape was fascinated with the Dark Arts, and James always hated the Dark Arts". As far as we've read, there is no reason for us to believe that James didn't attack first. So sorry if I base my opinions in the books instead of "what ifs". I judge by what's written only.

Well you'd be in good company, I wouldn't find it insulting. I find that section of the series to be amongst the poorest interpretated and I find it absolutely ridiculous many of the things I've read regarding it. Also if you base your opinions on only what's written you know very little as the world with which the books are situated in really haven't been covered in much depth. You wouldn't be qualified or able to comment on about 95% of threads in this place for instance so I feel you are exaggerating if you believe you don't deal in "what ifs".

[Credo Buffa]

Yes, James Potter at 15 was arrogant. He knew he was smart, he knew he was cool, and he liked attention. But, honestly, he was fifteen years old, and I think anyone who has spent any time in a high school will tell you that there's a BIG difference between 15 and 17. If I could jump into a pensieve and look at myself and some of the things I did when I was that age, I would probably think I wasn't so great, either. Let's face it: kids are stupid. They do stupid things because they think that those stupid things are what life is all about. But teenagers are also growing up really, really fast. More than any other time in life, your perspectives, your passions, and your ideas about the world can change almost overnight.

I think that the fact that Harry saw James as a fifteen year old is significant. I think of this as a pivotal age; it is about the time in your life when you start to really consciously start to think about the person you want to grow up to be. You start to realize that there is adulthood looming in your future, and you start to understand that life isn't just a big party, but it has a lot of responsibility attached. At Hogwarts, the fifth year students have to make a decision about what career they think they would like to pursue after they leave the school, and once you start thinking about such a big thing as that, other big issues about your individual identity start to surface.

I think the scene in the pensieve is much more complex than what we just see on the surface. We do see James taking advantage of the chance to torment Snape in front of a lot of people, and clearly enjoying the attention. However, we also see him interact with Lily in a way that very obviously shows that he is fond of her. There are two polarized situations here: one in which James is in complete control, and another where he heeds control to Lily.

I think the fact that James does listen to her in the end is a big hint at where he ends up going in the future as an individual. There is a moment there where he has to realize that being smart and popular and even a bully won't get him everything that he wants in life. We also know that something has to have happened between James's fifth and seventh years to change Lily's mind about him, and my guess is that James was able to realize his arrogance, and see that beyond "schoolyard bullying," it would really get him nowhere. If he really wanted to be with Lily, if he really wanted to put his disdain for the dark arts to good use. . . then he really had to shape up. And I am a hundred percent confident that he did so, and really did eventually become the man that Harry can be proud to call his father.

As for Harry as "arrogant," I think there's a fine line between arrogance and confidence, and it is very easy to confuse the two. I think that there is little doubt that James's displays of blatant bullying at age 15 were clearly motivated by arrogance. He is assuming an air of superiority on a conscious level. Harry at 15, on the other hand, I would describe more as confident than arrogant. I don't see anything in his behavior to suggest that he assumes any kind of self-importance above anyone else. Rather, he is motivated by self-assurance, which implies that he doesn't need to feel superior to anyone else in order to feel strong and secure with himself. While he does have a penchant for breaking the rules, I don't think he does so because he thinks he can get away with it all the time where others can't. He does so because his motivations are something beyond himself, which gives him the confidence to go against the rules if it means doing what is right. In this way, I think that Harry is a much more mature fifteen-year-old than his father was.

[DarkThunder]

Its funny how people think Jame's behaviour is entirely excusable. 3 year olds have ethics, for goodness sake. Im 14 and Ive never been so vindictive as James. I liked him as an adult, but not when he was a teen. I guess I have trouble forgiving people who are so horrible.

[Elf]

Okay, I'm a little confused. Why are there so many people here who openly hate characters in the books, including Harry? It seems to me that if the title character is such an arrogant prig then it must be a huge waste of time to read the books, so why bother?

Personally, I think that JKR has redeemed the Marauders from their arrogant, immature fifteen year old days. Do you honestly think she would fill her books with overbearing losers that we are supposed to hate? I'm not making excuses for what we saw in the pensieve scene, but I refuse to condemn people for things they did as kids and allow no chance for redemption. I think that this is a point JKR is trying to make. People are flawed, but they can grow and they can change. If you don't believe this, there is no hope for any of us.

When Harry confronts Sirius and Lupin about Snape's worst memory, they are quite open with him that their behaviour was wrong. Sirius very bluntly says that he is not proud of it, he refers to himself and James as arrogant little berks and idiots and admits that Lupin made them feel ashamed of themselves. He does not hide that they were wrong. Sounds to me like he regretted the way they acted. He also says that James eventually deflated his head and grew out of it. Now, James did still have a rivalry with Snape, but it is clearly stated that Snape often hexed James as well. In other words, it was a two way street. Neither of them was innocent. We were privy to one particularly bad scene where James and Sirius were the instigators, but I refuse to let Snape off the hook for his actions in other circumstances anymore than James & Sirius. They were all young, they were all hotheaded, they all had poor judgement on both sides of this rivalry.

As for Harry, I don't understand how anyone can say he is arrogant. Over and over in the books we see how uncomfortable Harry is when the limelight is on him. He doesn't like attention. He gets embarassed when people whisper and watch him whether it is for something good he has done, or because of some horrible rumour that is circulating about him. This is one of the most important things about Harry's character. Dumbledore set him up to be this way by having the Dursleys raise him. He knew that Harry would be better off away from the wizard world so that he wouldn't be affected by the fame. In OotP, Dumbledore says to Harry: "...you arrived at Hogwarts neither as happy nor as well-nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances." (p.737 Canadian Ed.) Dumbledore makes a point, I believe on the author's behalf, that Harry is not arrogant and spoiled. So how is it that people are still accusing Harry of being an arrogant show off?

Now, I understand that this is a touchy issue with many people because they themselves were bullied in school. Join the club! I was tormented for much of my childhood and teen years but I still believe that kids who are insensitive jerks can develop into responsible, caring adults.

I think the point of the penseive scene was so that Harry would see all these men in a different light, including Snape. He needed to recognize that his father should not be on a pedestal because he was only human, just like Harry. Unfortunately for Harry, he never had the chance to know his dad and so he has been exposed to two extremes: one from the Dursleys who insisted he was a good for nothing loser and the other a slightly romanticized version from the wizard world because James was essentially a martyr. The scene in the penseive lets Harry know that his dad was once young and flawed, but eventually grew into a strong and decent individual.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that I think people are dwelling too much on one incident. As if JKR was aiming to make us hate some of the best characters in her novels. To do this would be to sabotage her own writing.If James was just some cocky jerk and Harry is just like him then why on earth waste your time reading the Potter books?

[GodricHollow]

We don't "Hate" them, we're just trying to answer some of the more spur of the moment things that don't exactly go to plan things he does...

[DarkThunder]

Mm, like I said, I disliked James when he was a teen, but they were fine when he was adult. Although being a decent person when older does not 'erase' a bad past, it doesnt mean change is insignificant.

[tao]

I don't know if anyone really thinks Harry Potter is 'better' than any of his friends, nor do I think that he would think so. Harry understands that he wouldn't be where he was today with out them. That is why in the beginning of OoTP and throught out the book we see him grappling with his anger twoard them. Some people think so, the famous "arrogance by proxy syndrom".

He never brags about his quidditch victories (look at how Ron brags after one semi-decent game)Come on, now the game was semi decent? - He held every qauffle after the first! Its not usual for quittisch that one team only makes 10 points. And he was extremly happy about it because the other 3 games went extremly bad. It also seemed to be quite important to the rest of Gryffindor. :sigh: whatever

The teenage years are infamous for testing boundaries and self-discoveryand
Every 15 year old (boy especially) acts like a jerk sometimes. Possibly James and Sirius more that others. Yes they were big headed and yes they were mean to snape. For no good reason. But they were 15 for goodness sakes.and
Of course James was arrogant.

Let's take inventory

he was very bright
he was popular
he was handsome
he was magically gifted
he taught himself to be an animagus
he helped make the marauders map (no small feat)

Arrogance is maybe not the most desirable trait in a man but remember he was 15 when we see him in Snape's memory.Yes, these 15 year olds, but
I am angry at a lot of the replies in this thread.

Firstly, the unpleasant attitude towards those who are bullied. To sidetrack a bit, I was very, very, very unpopular at school. I don't remember much about it - I think I blocked a lot of it out since I'm only 21 now - but I think anyone can agree that things have become dreadful when one is actually contemplating suicide or at least horrific injury to onesself to avoid school.

Things that happened to me then affect me to this day. I have anxiety problems, I am frightened to speak to new people, I spend the vast majority of my time alone and I don't believe I will ever be comfortable in social situations. I also carry, I am afraid to say, grudges against certain types of people, namely the very, very popular and those who can apparently abuse and assault people while at school and get away with it.

It makes me angry to the point of tears that the abuse suffered by children at school is not taken seriously. We all agree that assault is wrong when it involves adults, or when it involves adults abusing children (although I do notice that the cute and popular children get more sympathy for this) but abuse between those in schools is described as "teasing", as if it is not important, as if it does not ruin lives. This is an attitude I find hateful. Abuse is abuse. If someone turned me upside down and tore off my underwear, I wouldn't consider it a mere "embarassment", I would consider it sexual assault, since that is exactly what it is.

It seems to me that a lot of people in the world (including, it seems, some on this board) think that certain kinds of children and teenagers deserve to be bullied and abused. It seems to me that one is only allowed to be a victim if one can display adequate levels of attractiveness, a decent amount of presentable friends and a tendency to be pathetically grateful for any patronising "help" people like to offer. Ugly, scowling, awkward, bitter people are percieved to deserve all they get because they don't look pretty even after you've cleaned them up.
...

We are talking about assault and attempted murder here, not "teasing". I would not even begin to imagine that someone who has the capacity to plan a murder as a teenager could merely "grow out of it", nor that they are a good person. The fact that they were popular says so much to me. When I was at school, it was plain to me that most of the teachers preferred the popular students. Popular students are percieved to be better because they are popular and that is all there is to it. and
...As a bullied person myself, I have endured worse attacks than the trifle little hits Roberto gave. The kind of attacks that humiliate you and leave you angry, frustrated and sad with yourself, because you were unable to defend yourself. And the James-Sirius attack on Snape was exactly of that kind. It wasn't physical enough for them to get into trouble, but psychologically devastating. I don't buy the "he grew out of it" stuff. I don't think James Potter grew out of it as much as Snape has done. In fact, I believe the best thing Dumbledore has ever done for Harry is to put him to endure the bullying of the Dursleys. Harry will NEVER become as his father, much less now that he's seen the pensieve scene.

But I totally agree with you, MagicGeek. People are so willing to forgive the handsome, popular, goodatsportsandstudies guys. People are even willing to find evidence from nowhere that proves that "Snape had attacked them first", despite the books clearly explain that it wasn't the case.

As for me, I still hate James Potter. Faced Voldemort three times, blahblah, yes, but if his fighting the evil and siding with the good gave him leave to hurt whoever he considered "lower", for me he is as good as Lord Voldemort in his self-righteousness. Oh, yes, he didn't kill people. But what he did to Snape was torture, whether his fans want to admit it or not. The only good thing James Potter has in his stock to my eyes is the fact that he died protecting his wife and son. Other than that, nothing special.
MagicGeek who has expirience with being bullied, seems to think what happened to Snape was a big deal. Natsufan seems to think what happended to Snape was torture. For Snape it is definitly a huge deal 20 years later and Harry who knows exactly how it feels to be humiliated in a circle of onlookers is seriously depressed by what he sees. I know Lupin and Sirius think it was just being stupid and not a big deal. So who decides how bad something is the bystanders or the victims? I tend to listen to the victims.
Objectivly there is not a lot of harm done in a rape, if you don´t end up pregnant. Only when you know what the victims tell afterwards, how they hate there body, feel humiliated and can´t have a normal sex life for .. maybe forever, you know how bad it is.

And I don´t like the implication I feel in some posts that tormenting a weaker victim is something stupid you do in your youth like getting drunk or stealing something from the supermarket or spraying graffity or making out with somebody while you have a boy/girlfriend (probably after the getting drunk part). It is very different. Some ordinary people do it, I know, but ordinary people do a lot of horrible stuff. No reason to play it down.

[Credo Buffa]

Okay, I'm a little confused. Why are there so many people here who openly hate characters in the books, including Harry? It seems to me that if the title character is such an arrogant prig then it must be a huge waste of time to read the books, so why bother?

Personally, I think that JKR has redeemed the Marauders from their arrogant, immature fifteen year old days. Do you honestly think she would fill her books with overbearing losers that we are supposed to hate? I'm not making excuses for what we saw in the pensieve scene, but I refuse to condemn people for things they did as kids and allow no chance for redemption. I think that this is a point JKR is trying to make. People are flawed, but they can grow and they can change. If you don't believe this, there is no hope for any of us.

Amen, Elf! Well said! JKR has consistently impressed me with her ability to create three-dimensional, extremely realistic characters. I don't know a single person who doesn't have something less-than flattering in their past that they're not proud of and wish they could take back. People CAN grow and change, and I think that it's a very important theme in HP that JKR really wants us to grasp.

Now, I understand that this is a touchy issue with many people because they themselves were bullied in school. Join the club! I was tormented for much of my childhood and teen years but I still believe that kids who are insensitive jerks can develop into responsible, caring adults.

Very true. I definitely wasn't popular in school, and for no good reason that I can discern. I was just quiet, didn't try to get into anyone's way. . . maybe I chose to hang out with some people that were a little "different" in the eyes of the "ruling clique," but I thought that no reason to be picked on. However, I grew up, and so did they. I never wanted to be popular, so I didn't ask for it. But what I did ask for was their respect, and I felt like by the time I graduated from high school, I had that. While it still wasn't exactly natural to strike up a conversation with my "arch enemies" (if you could call them that. . . definitely not like an "I'll hex you, you hex me" relationship a la James and Snape, but it was pretty clear we didn't like each other), I was pretty confident that it was no longer a pasttime to laugh at me or talk about me behind my back. Like I said in my previous post, I think most 17/18 year olds, even the bullies, have decided that stuff like that is pretty juvenile. And, any time I see any of them now, I really don't sense the kind of animosity that I did then. That's not to say that I don't remember what they did to me and think about it on occasion, but if they are willing to make ammends by being good people as adults, and are willing to be civil with me, I can accept that change.

I think it's also important to look at who James and Snape grew up to be. James grew up to be involved in the Order of the Phoenix, a group whose greatest desire is to rid the world of Death Eaters, who only use their power to torment people who don't deserve it. Snape, on the other hand, became a Death Eater. Even after Snape's "reform" into the Order, he continues to carry a grudge that allows him to bully Harry simply because he is James's son. I think that most people here who have a grudge against someone from their childhood would still think it inappopriate to unfairly judge their children because of things their parents did when they were kids. I would hope so, anyway. My point is that James was able to shake off his bullying ways and use his talents for a good cause, while Snape just seems to me like a big baby a lot of the time. If he really wanted to show James and Sirius, he could have become a perfectly kind and respectable adult that James and Sirius would be able to admire.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that I think people are dwelling too much on one incident. As if JKR was aiming to make us hate some of the best characters in her novels. To do this would be to sabotage her own writing.If James was just some cocky jerk and Harry is just like him then why on earth waste your time reading the Potter books?

Exactly. I'm sure JKR designed this episode in the series to be a bit unsettling. But the best and most interesting characters are the ones that we sometimes feel conflicted about, because they are very real and, probably more than we want to admit, very like ourselves.

[Arithmancy]

MagicGeek who has expirience with being bullied, seems to think what happened to Snape was a big deal. Natsufan seems to think what happended to Snape was torture. For Snape it is definitly a huge deal 20 years later and Harry who knows exactly how it feels to be humiliated in a circle of onlookers is seriously depressed by what he sees. I know Lupin and Sirius think it was just being stupid and not a big deal. So who decides how bad something is the bystanders or the victims? I tend to listen to the victims.
Hi, Tao! (Are we going to move our endless argument into this thread now? ;) )

I think you underestimate the number of people on these boards who were victims of bullying. I'd venture a guess that the share of geeks (and I mean this in the most affectionate way! ;) ) on the boards is wa-a-y higher than generally in real life. My guess is about 90% of board participants were victims of bullying in some degree. I was too. The spectre of opinions however is very diverse.

With all due respect to MagicGeek (btw, I LOVE the name! :tu: ), I think in this instance she projects her own real-life experience onto HP characters, and not analysing what is going on in the text. Granted, we do not know much about Snape-Maradeurs conflict. But from what we saw and know about Snape, IMHO he would be rather offended if anyone thought he was a weak defensless person. And he is no angel there, btw. I understand Snape did not want to accept Lily's help out of pride, but calling her a Mudblood was uncalled for. A simple "I don't want any help from you!" would have sufficed. To imply that Snape simply did not look pretty is as much an insult as to imply that Maradeurs did not do anything wrong. (For the record: they did!)

As for me, I still hate James Potter. ... if his fighting the evil and siding with the good gave him leave to hurt whoever he considered "lower", for me he is as good as Lord Voldemort in his self-righteousness.
You know, I love your point! It actually deeply philosophical: does end justify means? What gives people right to judge others? How to weild the power in the name of Good and not fall down to the opposing side's level? But it is also a very complicated point, many people fail to comprehend it all their lives, let alone by the age 15! And it is fair to say that society as a whole fails to uphold these principles. Take the existance of Death Penalty: we are murdering murderers, how moral is that? Take war, any war, no matter how justified - it always involves trade-off of killing some innocents.

I am exaggerating here, but the idea is clear. (I am with Elf here.) If you are willing to condemn James Potter, condemn Snape-the-Death-Eater, condemn Harry-the-Cruciatus-Curse-User, condemn yourself for ever enjoying the fruits of civilization, because there is a good chance they were one day won in a war with somebody. If we are not ready to do it, we have to admit that a person must be judged by both good and bad deeds in his life and that people can be redeemed.

[TylerDurden]

I don't at all think James is bad, Harry just saw a bad side of him. I'm around 15 and I can be a real idiot sometimes. Lupin and Sirius explained it very well in my opinion. I reeally don't think there's anything to worry about, and he shouldn't be judging his father by this, but he probably will, becuase he is a bit arrogant.

[Arithmancy]

Sorry for spamming, I want to add something to my last post (and actually tie this to the topic of the thread :p ).

In light of the discussion of how James was no better than Voldemort in his self-righteous arroigance: is Harry arrogant like his father? Ironically enough, he is. Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside down for the fun of it... Not unless they really loathed them... Perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it...So Harry did not like bullying, his life experience taught him that. But did he grasp that concept Natsufan is talking about: that you cannot fight evil with evil? Not the slightest. In a cruel way, Harry was lucky to have been raised by Dursleys - it gave him first-hand experience with humiliation, and pre-determined his position on it. But, just like James, he lacks wisdom as to why bullying anyone is bad. I don't fault him, he is only 15.

[My_Blood_Is_Ink]

I took philosophy last semester in college, and there are degrees of pride which may be determined as healthy and unhealthy.

Unhealthy (Negative): Humility or too humble
Healthy (Neutral): Modesty/Pride
Unhealthy (Positive): Arrogance

The course was from a long time ago, and I'm sorry if this explanation is too simplified and looks rather elementary. The point is, everyone has pride but varying degrees of it. What determines how much pride one has is dependent upon one's innate disposition and one's upbringing.

Arrogance is not a positive trait. Whenever you hear an individual describe another as arrogant, instinct tells us the comment was no compliment. When someone, a teacher for example, says a student does all of his or her work with pride, it is definitely a compliment.

Humility is a little tricky. Usually in verbal context, it can be a good thing. However, too much of it is also harmful. When one does not have enough pride to defend himself under certain circumstances, that person is bound to be pushed around in life.

So I'm agreeing with James Potter being an arrogant individual, but this doesn't make him a bad person. What it makes him, truthfully, is human. The same goes with Sirius.

Harry shows signs of arrogance, but usually he mentally tries to bat it down. This is good. It shows he tries to keep himself under control, which is not what James did. Harry, because of his life, is bound to be more mature than his father. James did not have the responsibilites his son has.

Plus, Ron, Hermione, Draco, and the twins all show signs of it. Ron has a lot of pride as a Gryffindor, but this causes him (and many of the other houses) to exclude the Slytherins. The same thing works with Draco but in reverse. Hermione can be arrogant. It shows in the way she overwhelms herself with work. She tries to be modest about it, but how frequently do we get annoyed with modesty? To her credit, she's honest about the amount of effort she puts into her studies. To that end, she works with pride. If she were truly arrogant, she would pretend she doesn't need to study at all (like Sirius during the OWLs).

I think everyone has a had a moment of vanity. I know I have. It's human nature.

Cheers,
My Blood is Ink

[onyxmoon]

it'd be odd if you didn't hae a moment of vanity. i don't think it's ok but it can show that you're passionate about something, not all the time of course :)
i know people who managed to get the term vanity to a whole new (negative) level :)

[Elf]

I think we need to remember too that the things that are important to most fifteen year olds will seem trivial to the things they find inportant even a mere few years later. At the time of the penseive scene James cared about being popular. Winning his battles with Snape was important to him too. He cared about impressing Lily, even if he failed terribly at this sometimes. because he ended up looking like a show off.

But do we honestly think any of these things were priorities to James a few years later, perhaps even by the time of graduation from Hogwarts? Within approximately the next six years, James married Lily, joined the Order, was fighting a war and his son was born. The motivation behind his teenage stupidity was probably long forgotten.

James and Harry obviously grew up in very different situations. As an orphan living with relatives who disliked him, Harry was abused and bullied. Even at 15 years old, if James had been shown a glimpse of the abuses his own son would eventually face, I think he would have changed his tune sooner. The fact of the matter is that boyhood rivalries don't mean much when you are in the middle of a war and you know that your family and many other innocent people are in grave danger. In short, James grew up.

As for Snape, I find it almost amusing that so may people pity him so much. If anyone in the Potter world was to show pity for Snape, he'd bite their head off! Snape doesn't want pity, rather he wants respect. Snape is no wimpy marshmallow. He's tough as nails and he knows darn well how to fight back and even instigate battles. His nickname may have been Snivellus, but he has a pretty intense mean streak. Verbally, Snape can wield words as skillfully as a sword and he hits his mark. Just look how he baited Sirius about not being useful to the Order. I think to view Snape as nothing more than weak and victimized is an insult to his character.

original post by Credo Buffa
Even after Snape's "reform" into the Order, he continues to carry a grudge that allows him to bully Harry simply because he is James's son. I think that most people here who have a grudge against someone from their childhood would still think it inappopriate to unfairly judge their children because of things their parents did when they were kids. I would hope so, anyway.

Good point. Snape does his fair share of bullying Harry. At least James picked on someone his own size. I just can't picture any of the Marauders bullying Snape's kids if he had any.

original post by Arithmancy
I understand Snape did not want to accept Lily's help out of pride, but calling her a Mudblood was uncalled for. A simple "I don't want any help from you!" would have sufficed. To imply that Snape simply did not look pretty is as much an insult as to imply that Maradeurs did not do anything wrong. (For the record: they did!)

I think the key word here is pride. They were all a bunch of proud boys strutting their stuff. It is pride that fuelled their rivalry and kept them from turning the other cheek when taunted by the enemy. We are discussing the "arrogance" of the Potter boys on this thread and the very definition of arrogance is having too much pride in oneself (check your dictionary). Sure James was proud and so was Sirius, but more importantly, so was Snape! People tend to excuse Snape's vindictiveness as merely his hurt talking, but I woud say that his pride has a lot to do with it too. The reason he belittles peple (his students, and Sirius for example) is because he does feel a certain superiority to them. If James and Sirius were arrogant then certainly Snape fit this description just as well.

Now before anyone jumps all over me for being too hard on Snape, let me just clarify that I think Snape is a tougher individual than many people give him credit for. I for one, don't think he's a wimp or a snivelling coward, rather I think he is a strong person who has to learn to deal with his anger and pride in a more healthy way. Snape is a delicious character, wonderful to read about because of his mystery, darkness and razor-sharp speech. As much as Sirius was known for being the bad boy on campus, I can't help but think if Snape had been the more social or outgoing type he could have easily rivalled him in this area. My point then, is that to treat Snape like the helpless victim reduces his character far below the status he deserves as one of the key players in the books.


original post by tao
So who decides how bad something is the bystanders or the victims? I tend to listen to the victims.

Honestly, we can interpret the events in the penseive however we want at this point, but when it comes down to how the characters turn out, that is entirely up to the author. If JKR says that James turned out to be a fine, upstanding individual then for the purpose of the story we need to believe that. They're her characters, she created them, developed them and chose how they turned out. If she says that the boys grew up and matured into decent individuals then we need to stop judging them solely by what we saw in the penseive. The author is omniscient and if her definition of a respectable and good person is different than some people's then those people will either have to accept this or be dissatisfied with the remainder of the stories.

original post by TylerDurden
I don't at all think James is bad, Harry just saw a bad side of him. I'm around 15 and I can be a real idiot sometimes.

LOL! Now there's an honest answer folks! Let's get real for a second here people--we all have the potential to do nasty and harmful things, whether verbally or physically. What we witnessed in the penseive was a couple of teens giving into this unfortunate tendency. We all have the choice about how to treat others and I think Harry can learn from his dad's mistakes, rather than repeat them. I think part of the reason JKR included the penseive scene was so that Harry would have a chance to reflect on his views of morality. There's something to be learned here--we are all flawed. Those on the side of good, still have faults and those on the side of evil still have the chance to change.

[Natsufan]

No one is saying James was bad. The plot is about "arrogant Potter boys". My honest and short opinion:

James Potter was arrogant.
Harry Potter isn't arrogant at all. Some little, tiny, small moments of arrogance, only when really angry or upset, and whith **** good reasons to be so.

That's it. Nothing to do with goodness or badness.

[StarMoonbunny]

Harry got the first taste of his dad being flawed,

This is very very shocking to him, because he never knew his parents, so he had idolized them almost to a "supreme" level. Meaning that they were above the "mortal fools".

However, they were very real people, and he was shocked by what he saw.
It is true that Harry has a bit of this in him, but we all have flaws. (Even dead people that we idolize)

But overall, Harry and James's Good overshadows the sliver of arrrogance that resides within them

[Natsufan]

Erm... Harry has less of a sliver of arrogance. James had a few pounds of it.

[Credo Buffa]

I took philosophy last semester in college, and there are degrees of pride which may be determined as healthy and unhealthy.

Unhealthy (Negative): Humility or too humble
Healthy (Neutral): Modesty/Pride
Unhealthy (Positive): Arrogance

The course was from a long time ago, and I'm sorry if this explanation is too simplified and looks rather elementary. The point is, everyone has pride but varying degrees of it. What determines how much pride one has is dependent upon one's innate disposition and one's upbringing.

Arrogance is not a positive trait. Whenever you hear an individual describe another as arrogant, instinct tells us the comment was no compliment. When someone, a teacher for example, says a student does all of his or her work with pride, it is definitely a compliment.

Humility is a little tricky. Usually in verbal context, it can be a good thing. However, too much of it is also harmful. When one does not have enough pride to defend himself under certain circumstances, that person is bound to be pushed around in life.

So I'm agreeing with James Potter being an arrogant individual, but this doesn't make him a bad person. What it makes him, truthfully, is human. The same goes with Sirius.

This is good. It shows he tries to keep himself under control, which is not what James did. Harry, because of his life, is bound to be more mature than his father. James did not have the responsibilites his son has.

Plus, Ron, Hermione, Draco, and the twins all show signs of it. Ron has a lot of pride as a Gryffindor, but this causes him (and many of the other houses) to exclude the Slytherins. The same thing works with Draco but in reverse. Hermione can be arrogant. It shows in the way she overwhelms herself with work. She tries to be modest about it, but how frequently do we get annoyed with modesty? To her credit, she's honest about the amount of effort she puts into her studies. To that end, she works with pride. If she were truly arrogant, she would pretend she doesn't need to study at all (like Sirius during the OWLs).

I think everyone has a had a moment of vanity. I know I have. It's human nature.

Cheers,
My Blood is Ink

I love your explanation here, especially the last part, bringing in other characters as well. As you say, everyone has a touch of arrogance about something, but it's really about how that arrogance manifests itself in each person. I know a lot of people that I would describe as arrogant--mostly musicians ;)--but it's a trait that actually contribues a lot to the confidence necessary to succeed in that field. I might get a little annoyed with them sometimes, but I don't think they're bad people. In fact, most of my composition professors actually tell me that I have to have more of that proud, almost arrogant nature so that commissioners won't be deterred by my tendancy to "talk down" my own work. Sometimes you need arrogance to get that edge in life.

Of course, I'm not saying that James's arrogance with regard to his ideas that it was OK to bully Snape is something that should just be overlooked. But I think that we all know he changed later in life, which has to mean that he channelled his arrogance through some other medium. He probably Harry shows signs of arrogance, but usually he mentally tries to bat it down.became more like Harry, like you say: "Harry shows signs of arrogance, but usually he mentally tries to bat it down." Also, like you mention, he is more mature at 15 than his father was simply because of the life he's led up to this point. Once James had more time to just grow up, I'm sure he gathered all these traits that prevent Harry from hexing Malfoy every chance he gets, even if in the deepest recesses of his mind he desperately wants to.

[Libertine]

arrogance as a plot device is the most appropriate answer i think. right from the beginning of the first book, harry, ron and hermione have suspected the wrong people of being evil/plotting evil plots, etc. so that at the end, it comes as a big surprise when whoa! it was actually that stuttering professor, or whoa! the escape lunatic is harry's godfather. jkr keeps the main characters a little blind, a little too arrogant to ask for help, so that the readers are also kept in the dark until the last moment, when she throws the big surprise on us.

[tao]

Hi, Tao! (Are we going to move our endless argument into this thread now? ;) )

I think you underestimate the number of people on these boards who were victims of bullying. I'd venture a guess that the share of geeks (and I mean this in the most affectionate way! ;) ) on the boards is wa-a-y higher than generally in real life. My guess is about 90% of board participants were victims of bullying in some degree. I was too. The spectre of opinions however is very diverse.
Yes but the degree matters very much with bullying and any sort of violence. Anyway lets take the victims in the books as reference.
Hi Arithmancy btw, it will always be in honour to point out flaws in your argumentation :) like Originally Posted by OotP
Harry could not imagine Fred and George dangling someone upside down for the fun of it... Not unless they really loathed them... Perhaps Malfoy, or somebody who really deserved it...

In light of the discussion of how James was no better than Voldemort in his self-righteous arroigance: is Harry arrogant like his father? Ironically enough, he is. So Harry did not like bullying, his life experience taught him that. But did he grasp that concept Natsufan is talking about: that you cannot fight evil with evil? Not the slightest. In a cruel way, Harry was lucky to have been raised by Dursleys - it gave him first-hand experience with humiliation, and pre-determined his position on it. But, just like James, he lacks wisdom as to why bullying anyone is bad. I don't fault him, he is only 15.These are 3 different points
1) fighting evil with evil, does the end justify the means? - death penalty, using Cruciatus against DEs - always an interesting question
2) Harrys desperate attempt to find a reason for his fathers behavior, would the twins do something like that? can there be a reason that justifies this action? no arrogance - he wanted to find a satisfying explenation and failed
3) James arrogance and oppinion that he is good, because of everything he is like a Gryffindor, and Snape is bad, because of everything he is, and so everything he does to Snape is OK. If this is true or not is not an interesting or difficult question and you don´t have to be very mature to answer it. (of course its wrong) Does the end justify the means? Well the end was amusment! Some people are simply not that arrogant but some are, like James.
As for Snape, I find it almost amusing that so may people pity him so much. If anyone in the Potter world was to show pity for Snape, he'd bite their head off! Snape doesn't want pity, rather he wants respect. Snape is no wimpy marshmallow. He's tough as nails and he knows darn well how to fight back and even instigate battles. His nickname may have been Snivellus, but he has a pretty intense mean streak. Verbally, Snape can wield words as skillfully as a sword and he hits his mark. Just look how he baited Sirius about not being useful to the Order. I think to view Snape as nothing more than weak and victimized is an insult to his character.
...
Now before anyone jumps all over me for being too hard on Snape, let me just clarify that I think Snape is a tougher individual than many people give him credit for. I for one, don't think he's a wimp or a snivelling coward, rather I think he is a strong person who has to learn to deal with his anger and pride in a more healthy way. Snape is a delicious character, wonderful to read about because of his mystery, darkness and razor-sharp speech. As much as Sirius was known for being the bad boy on campus, I can't help but think if Snape had been the more social or outgoing type he could have easily rivalled him in this area. My point then, is that to treat Snape like the helpless victim reduces his character far below the status he deserves as one of the key players in the books.He definitly doesn´t want pity, he wants respect. He doesn´t want to be a victim.
Who does? The idea to be a victim drives me cracy. Has anyone seen this TV-spot, where a man hits every 4th woman he meets in the stomach. The message is every 4th woman is a victim of violence and it could happen to everyone, I mean, every woman. I know the motives of the spot are good but I hate it. I am not a victim just because I´m a woman or for any other reason. Nobody hits me! Nobody fools with tao;)
Thats what makes being a victim so bad, its humiliating. You feel so weak, like you can´t even look out for yourself. You can´t decide what happens with your life and body -that totally lies in the hand of a James Potter or somebody. No, Snape doesn´t want anyone to know how "weak" he is, was or can be. We see that in his reaction when he pulls Harry out of the pensieve. With Snape its even worse because he always tried to escape the victim-role. As a child of 11 he Knew more hexes than a 7th year. We know how he treats people nowadays, he threatens them, scares them and would never show weak side of his. Its like he is screaming "I am not a victim anymore. Nobody fools with Severus Snape" But of course he was one.

AND that doesn´t cheapen his charakter. You can take a persons pride away for while and they will feel like its their fault - but it isn´t.

[Arithmancy]

*Bows back to tao* The honor is mine.
(I'll try to make it mine, anyway ;) )

2) Harrys desperate attempt to find a reason for his fathers behavior, would the twins do something like that? can there be a reason that justifies this action? no arrogance - he wanted to find a satisfying explenation and failed

This is really interesting: how do you read that quote? In my reading, it goes this way:
It starts with Fred and George - as if Harry tries and fails to "fit" his father's behavior into "Fred-and-George" image. But it ends with Malfoy. Is Malfoy enemy of Fred and George? Only by association with Harry. Malfoy is Harry's enemy. So somewhere along that quote Harry starts internalizing the argument. He slips from thinking what F&G are capable of doing to their enemies into thinking what he himself can do to his. He starts with comparing James to F&G and ends up comparing James to himself.

I call Harry arrogant here because along the quote he dares to judge that Malfoy is among those people who really deserve it. It is the same breed of arrogance that James exhibited. (and it is so ... teenage)

Even if you do not buy the "internalizing" interpretation, there is still that problem of Harry being the judge: even if Harry himself would not bully defensless Malfoy, he thinks it would be justifiable on Fred&George's part.
Harry only fails to justify James because he did not have any evidence that Snape was a bad enough jerk, not because Maradeurs were 4 to 1, not because they were unprovoked in that instance. In fact he desperately asks Lupin and Sirius if there was any backstory. What if Sirius went over the whole list of things Snape and James did to each other instead of saying: "Oh, they feuded from day one"? (presuming there was some incriminating evidence against Snape) Would it be OK then in Harry's mind?


3) James arrogance and oppinion that he is good, because of everything he is like a Gryffindor, and Snape is bad, because of everything he is, and so everything he does to Snape is OK. If this is true or not is not an interesting or difficult question and you don´t have to be very mature to answer it. (of course its wrong) Does the end justify the means? Well the end was amusment! Some people are simply not that arrogant but some are, like James.

Good point about amusement. It is true with respect to James. He was a jerk.
But with respect to Harry - (see above) IMHO the end would be "justice", at least in Harry's mind. Does it make Harry better than James? Yes, but only marginally.

The idea to be a victim drives me crazy. Has anyone seen this TV-spot, where a man hits every 4th woman he meets in the stomach. The message is every 4th woman is a victim of violence and it could happen to everyone, I mean, every woman. I know the motives of the spot are good but I hate it. I am not a victim just because I´m a woman or for any other reason. Nobody hits me! Nobody fools with tao;)
That guy would have so-o-o gotten something unpleasant from me in return as well! :grumble: :tu:


Thats what makes being a victim so bad, its humiliating. ... No, Snape doesn´t want anyone to know how "weak" he is, was or can be. ... We know how he treats people nowadays, he threatens them, scares them and would never show weak side of his. Its like he is screaming "I am not a victim anymore. ...
AND that doesn´t cheapen his character. You can take a persons pride away for while and they will feel like its their fault - but it isn´t.
No, it does not cheapen him. I love Snape's character, and his pride is what makes up for his greasy hair in "sexy" department (in my book, at least). :p
However, there are ways to say "I am not a victim". Snape could enjoy his career achivements, his social status, his position with Dumbledore (he seems to be very fond of Dumbledore's trust) and rub it in the eyes of the whole world. That would have made him so much more ... attractive ;) , and it would be so wonderfully Slytherin-ish! (A personal remark: it works for me! :D )

Instead, he re-creates his school experiences and picks verbal fights with "popular Gryffindor children". He was good with hexes then, but not so much with sarcasm, as we have seen. Now he has mastered the art of verbal dueling, and he just cannot stop. It is like his guilty pleasure. Ironically, there are not many people left alive who saw Snape as a victim. He is proving himself to the wrong audience, and it is so unsatisfying... Instead of showing everybody he is not a victim anymore, he just keeps reminding himself: you were a victim once. :(

[MooJuice72]

Think about it this way - maybe Snape was the only person James treated that way - they despised each other- and at 15 it is hard to control your impulses - sometimes you still don't think through before you act..it didn't say James was that way to anyone else and it is easy to torment the people you hate and think it is ok..as for being flashy in front of Lily- doesnt every teenage boy act like he is all that at one point? Maybe he thought being Mr. thang would impress her!
James saving snape from Lupin's werewolf form shows me that he still had his thinking n the right place - as much as he hated Snape- he wouldn't let him die- which might also cause Snape to hate him worse- the fact that he thought James wanted him to die - but that he can hold it over his head that he saved him from dying.

[tao]

Arithmancy,
I think that the difference between amusment and justice (even "justice") is huge not marginal, but that may be a marginal disagreement on our part. :)
But Harry didn´t choose the situation. He saw it. What else could he have done than think it through, try to find explenations and ask the people involved? So my point is: If Harry was even less arrogant than he is, what would/could/should he have done differently? Thinking: "I don´t have to know more - Nobody deserves that" - Wouldn´t that be a little arrogant. :lol:

You´re absolutly right about Snape. We all know that he is bitter - and it´s not good for him.

[Arithmancy]

Arithmancy,
But Harry didn´t choose the situation. He saw it. What else could he have done than think it through.
Yes, but it is what he thought up that matters. However I see your point... *goes to scratch her head thoughtfully too proud to concede the argument* :lol: