CoSForums Archive - About a Certain Kreacher

Loz

June 24th, 2003, 1:25 am

I say it like "creature".

As for the trousers - LOL - that was seriously disturbing, and when I remembered JKR said mentioned 'snogging' in the BBC interview I thought "so is this it?". I thought that maybe coz he wasn't actually given the trousers it didn't apply. The only trouble/inconsistancy with him holding those trousers is that the hats Hermione was giving out weren't directly given to the house-elves and yet they did not pick them up coz they would have been freed. Like EmilyRose said - possibly, quite possibly - Kreacher was a free house-elf acting under someone else's orders.

I am wondering how he's going to look now... I keep thinking about the film - eep... I better get out of that - it's years away!

Kneazle

June 24th, 2003, 1:40 am

Although I did realize that Kreacher was in a wretched, pitiable position, I never pitied in the slightest. I thought that he was a repulsive creature and he gave me the creeps (like emikkime, he reminded me of Gollum a little bit, always plotting and murmering to 'himself'). I wanted so much for them to get rid of him-- yet look what happened when he was told to "get out". :grumble:

flibbertigibbet

June 24th, 2003, 1:59 am

Kreacher, just like Grimmauld Place, took me entirely by surprise. (Though the names of both should have tipped me off :)) Having only every seen house elves who were only to happy to serve, it was weird seeing Kreacher rebelling, in essence, against his master. Nastly little thing. I didn't really think to pity it until the end, when Dumbledore mentioned he'd been forced into servitude and wasn't exactly treated very nicely... still, by then the damage had been done. I just wonder what they'll do with him now. He doesn't really have to serve anyone in that house anymore, does he?

riddikulus

June 24th, 2003, 2:06 am

so the next question is, where does he go now? sirius was the last of the family... i always thought house-elves were bound to a family, although there is a mention of him being bound to the house... anyway what's to stop him from leaving now that there are no more blacks... and going to the next closest relative, the malfoys? that's my theory for book 6 anyway. and he could now tell them a lot more (it seemed like there were certain things he couldn't tell the malfoys because of dumbledore being the order's secret keeper, and then certain additional things he couldn't tell them because sirius had specifically told him not to... so he could only tell the malfoys the more abstract facts... but now, i figure he can tell them everything except the exact location of the house. and here's the other thing, if the blacks and malfoys were friends and cousins, mightn't they already know where the house is? i think kreacher's not done causing major harm to the order.

Charmed

June 24th, 2003, 2:10 am

Kreacher!! I did not like him the slightest. How I wish he had been mounted to the plaque. Though a part of me did feel sorry for him for awhile that vanished when he gave information to the Malfoy's.

cathairetic

June 24th, 2003, 7:27 am

I wonder if this house elf even had a name? I can just see old Madam Black yelling, "Creature!" at him. If the people who literally own your body and soul, treat you disrespectfully and call you by a demeaning name, you can be sure you are going to be rebellious in time. Sirius didn't seem to realize how he was treating Kreacher. In this he reminded me of Lucius Malfoy and his mistreatment of Dobby.

cindy054176

June 24th, 2003, 7:43 am

Apparently I'm the only one, but before the whole Sirius thing, I thought Kreature was hilarious. He was so creepy and I just thought his rebelliousness was really funny. I also love how he couldn't seem to keep thoughts to himself. Are all houselves like that? I mean I know that they can keep secrets, but can they think that freely? Winky & Dobby have both said whats on their mind. Whenever Dobby tried to keep a secret, he would more often than not spill and punish himself. I know Kreature had an involvement with Sirius's death, but I think his personality is just an effect of the enviroment that generations of his family went through...all of us know how awful Mrs. Black was. I know everyone's gonna slaughter me for this, but could everyone looking for Sirius really stake so much on the fact that Kreature wouldn't respond?? Not only is he just a house elf, but he's got certain negative feelings against Sirius. I think Hermione was right at the beginning when she was just trying to treat Kreature nicely. Then again...we all read how much Hermione was right in this book. Am I the only one that sensed something was up when Harry was having those visions??

-Cindy

Thayet

June 24th, 2003, 8:00 am

I never pitied Kreacher (pronounced "Creature" by me) one bit. I detested him, he was clearly as evil as Bellatrix, Narcissa and Sirius's mother herself. I knew, before anything was said, that when Sirius kept telling him to get out, he would leave and do something really evil, and of course, Sirius never thought to forbid him from telling that Sirius cared for Harry the most, so he was well within the house elf rights and laws to do so. Of course, I wish he hadn't, it was just pure evil, leading Sirius to his death, and being so foully excited about it. Plotting evil little wrench. But I expect Hermione will still maintain the same air as she did before about house elves and Kreacher, and the same as Dumbledore said - if he was treated with more kindliness, respect and, dare I say it, love (I'm now shuddering) then he wouldn't have done it, when of course, he had been influenced by evil, bred from evil (You really think the other house elves in his family were good in THAT family? Although Dobby was in the Malfoys, he was just a freak for the purpose of help and SPEW) - so there was really no hopes of him being good. Do you think that he will stay in the house now? I expect that he will, well, I'm certain he will, what I really meant to say was that if it remains OotP HQ does he still have to follow his dead masters orders and not say anything? Do those ties still stay in effect after death? And whether or not they do, will they be safe to discuss the Order within his hearing, if none of them is his master - but wait, if Sirius left a will, and he left the house to someone, surely that someone would become Kreachers master? But I cant see why Sirius would leave the house to anyone, as he hated living there, ran away when younger - so why would he want to give anyone some of his worst memories? But perhaps for the sake of the Order, he will have left it to someone so they can maintain that as the Orders headquarters and control Kreacher.

Loz

June 24th, 2003, 9:08 am

So we all have it - he was the anti-Dobby.

Picko

June 24th, 2003, 9:13 am

I pitied Kreacher, simply because he's a product of the environment he was brought into. However I realise that Dobby could've become like Kreacher due to the Malfoy connection but didn't, therefore to a certain extent I must say that Kreacher could also and probably was a bad egg to begin with.

aragog

June 24th, 2003, 9:19 am

I'm also wondering what he's going to do in the events past Book 5... If he's not bound to any of the Blacks anymore, since they're dead, he could probably either get a job (not likely) or find new owners such as the Malfoys or Lestranges or whomever else. Part of me thinks that he'd be content to sit around with his Mistress for all of eternity, but he -- like Sirius-- may get restless and want to leave that house.

Loz

June 24th, 2003, 9:25 am

So - what do we think - a Kreacher/Dobby - Draco/Sirius correlation going on there?? They *could* have turned out okay, but were influenced by their environments in different ways?

I get the feeling Kreacher will resurface as a major pain in the butt for the order... he has a lot of information.

Picko

June 24th, 2003, 2:18 pm

I think Kreacher will stay at the house because his only desire is to get his head on the wall, perhaps someone could cut it off and help him get it there faster ;)

Loz

June 24th, 2003, 2:38 pm

I'll do it ;) Where's that Samorai sword Kime wanted the grand weapon to be??

cathairetic

June 24th, 2003, 5:05 pm

When Harry was reading something about potions that could influence the mind and cause psychotic reactions I was all but convinced that Kreacher was somehow dosing Sirius with one, putting it in his food and drink. That would have partially explained Sirius's erratic behavior. And if Kreacher could get to the Malfoys they would certainly have given him it. Alas, JKR said nothing about this, so I guess Sirius just had a bad case of left-outs and cabin fever.

Loz

June 25th, 2003, 9:08 am

Hey cathairetic - that's a very good theory! Even if JKR hasn't mentioned it yet, perhaps the evil creature was doing something to make Sirius even more desperate to go outside...

Earendil

June 27th, 2003, 11:26 pm

Well, I was fervently reminded of Gollum whenever Kreacher was doing his mumbling in third person thing. And I did feel bad for him, because can anyone expect someone who has been consistently abused and downtrodden by wizards to harbor any particularly sincere feelings of warmth and loyalty toward his last remaining master? I mean, he was certainly attached to Mrs. Black (and to Mr. Black's trousers), but I think that this was more out of respect for the owners of the house in order to remain in their good graces. He had no incentive to feign sincere admiration for Sirius, because Sirius was the last remaining member of the household, so there was no reason to go out of his way to impress him. Still, I couldn't help but pity him: he was so misled by the restrictions of the house-elves slavery.

Of course, my pity didn't extend past the part when we found out from Dumbledore that Kreacher betrayed Sirius and caused Harry to go chasing after him. Oh nooo, preciousss, I wanted to hurt poor Kreacher badly and stick his head on the plaque next to his mother's--that's what he wanted most, wasn't it? :elaugh:

Godrics_Owl

June 28th, 2003, 4:34 am

When Kreacher left the manor, how did he get back? He was never invited by Dumbledore, the secret keeper. There would not have been a reason to, he never left there normally.

Falcon121

June 28th, 2003, 5:47 am

Now that Sirius is dead...does that mean that Kreacher will live on his own with the screaming portrait of sirius's mom...or will he go to the Malfoys who are of course part of the black family tree...

But then again...now that Sirius is dead,will kreacher allow the Order to use the house as their head quaters??

Will DD unknowingly allow the treachrous Kreacher to sabotage the Order again?Maybe we'll see that in the 6th book...

Actually i do think that Sirius could have treated him with a bit more love...maybe if he did Sirius would still be alive...as DD had said...

Aut0mat1c

June 28th, 2003, 6:13 am

I hope in the next book we see his head mounted on the wall in the Black manor.

Loz

June 29th, 2003, 7:14 am

I'm not entirely sure Kreacher would have behaved any differently even if Sirius had treated him with love *shudder* and respect, because he had been in the Black dark arts atmosphere for so many years (generations family wise). I think it might have made him even more gleeful to do the dirty on Sirius. :angry:

gred&forge4ever

June 30th, 2003, 12:10 pm

I really hate Kreacher. I think that he is taking the phycotic potion himself . He should go to prison, forget mounting his head on the wall, don't give him what he wants.

Inkwolf

June 30th, 2003, 1:14 pm

I seem to remember seeing a character in an old Masterpiece Theater my mother was watching....maybe a Jane Austen book or something, some old romance. I'll have to ask her if she remembers.

Anyway, the hero took the girl home to meet his mad mother, and the mother talked politely to the girl out loud, and followed every sentence with another one under her breath about how the girl was 'no better than she should be' and such.

Anyway, I think Kreacher was partly based on this character, if only I could remember who it was. :)

Loz

June 30th, 2003, 2:41 pm

Oh yes Inkwolf? That sounds very interesting indeed (wonders how to find this out).

S-Lucia

July 1st, 2003, 7:22 pm

I am quite shocked that so many people here are so light-heartened in
killing a creature as pathetic as Kreacher, and stuff like "put his
head on a stick" seems very cruel and disgusting to me, too. If a dark
familiy like the Blacks invents such an unbelievable awful tradition like
that, how can you want to follow it? I thought, that was, what Dumbledore meant in pleading the others to handle Kreacher with care: if you treat others as minor, they might well take their own - even perhaps terrible and unfair - way of revenging for this mistreatment. I don't think that Kreacher is a lovely or whatsoever character; but I found he was designed to show that you should not treat ANYBODY as a mere servant, even if it's what this person or creature thinks about himself. I forgot where it was, but I remember a line about Harry thinking that Hermoine wouldn't like the fountain in MoM for the servile and admiring look of the other creatures towards the golden wizards. Do you think, JKR wrote this out of a lack of other ideas to present?
I thought the Harry Potter books were about respect for others, for the
giants, the goblins and the house-elves as well. They symbolize in my
opinion just human beings who are generally despited for some reasons or others and you can never hope to live a peaceful life as long as you feel supreme and arrogant and disrespect them.
By the way; yeah, Kreacher had his hands in the game of chasing Sirius out of the house (what for Kreacher himself might have been the only way of getting rid of him. I know this sounds awful, but: Kreacher was in a bad situation from his own point of view; he had to betray his own ideals - even if they are as stupid as wanting to be decapitated - and he seemed to have real feelings towards his mistress. What was he supposed to do about it?) but he was not the only one, talking about Bellatrix, about Dumbledore himself, talking about Harry who was too proud even to look at the present Sirius gave to him in his "No, I can manage it on my own" attitude. Harry could have saved Sirius life if he wasn't so stubborn himself so I can't see the point in blaming only this pitiful house-elf, as someone said earlier: a product of his environment.
Sorry about this preaching, but I think JKR wanted to teach a lesson as well, and now condemning Kreacher seems the wrong reaction to me.

Loz

July 2nd, 2003, 7:05 am

Yikes... I had no idea someone would want to stick up for Kreacher so vehemently. Or is it more the principle of the thing you are sticking up for S-Lucia?

For the most part I completely agree with what you are saying. But... you say we shouldn't condemn Kreacher. If we are to view him not just a pathetic creature of servitude, shouldn't we condemn him for his appaling actions? He is a sentient being, he knows exactly what he was doing. The way he is treated is not right, no. I agree that Sirius should probably not have been so horrible to him all the time, but *he* saw Kreacher as representing everything he was against. Kreacher may have been influenced by the environment he was brought up in, and suffer the toll of being considered a mere house-elf, creature of servitude, but he had a choice to be the way he was, to act the way he acted.

Now, I was just joking about putting his head up on the plaque, but I do think he should be punished in some way for his crimes.

jordmundt6

July 2nd, 2003, 7:37 am

I'm all for going back in time and making the Order's first order of business when they move into number 12 Grimmuald place (hmm, Grimm, I wonder if Sirius Animagus shape isn't based on the Grimm after all) granting Kreacher's lifelong wish. Without him, there would be no advanced plot to fabricate Sirius' abduction. Without a specific target, Voldemort wouldn't have been able to twist the connection to his advantage.

S-Lucia

July 2nd, 2003, 8:59 pm

Hello Loz, I'd rather say it's the principle. I mean, here we go, talking all the time about good vs. evil but then we make the same "mistakes" and what's the difference then? (just assuming that we all stand on the side of good ;o))

Veneficus

July 2nd, 2003, 9:14 pm

I thought it odd that Kreacher was stealing back the household items Sirius was trying get rid of when everyone was cleaning out the house. Kreacher wasn't even upset at the offer of clothes (freedom), he was never going to leave the deceased Black family.

cathairetic

July 2nd, 2003, 10:04 pm

With Sirius dead, I suspect that either the OotP or Harry himself will inherit the house. That is, if Sirius had a will. Otherwise the house will go to the closest living relation and Kreacher along with it. He's part of the furnishings so to speak. I suppose we will find out in book six.

ultimate sacrifice

July 8th, 2003, 4:17 am

I've often wondered (after reading book 5), what would happen to Kreacher now. Is there a House Elf court? Since Kreacher contributed to the death of his master, shouldn't there be some kind of consequence? Would that be a Ministry thing like the buckbeak thing? And since Lucious Malfoy is in Azkaban, will Narcissa have influence with the Ministry like Lucious did in the buckbeak trial? Did Kreacher have freedom. I totally missed out on the Mr. Black's pants thing, I'll have to read it over. Do you all think Kreacher was a free House Elf?

Starrlight

July 8th, 2003, 4:36 am

He's not the anti-Dobby--he's just like Dobby--and US!
Malfoy didn't intend to set Dobby free, Dobby's free on a technicality, Dobby knows darn well Malfoy didn't really give him a sock!
Kreacher left the house on a technicality--he knows darn well "out" didn't mean out of the house!
How often do we do things on a technicality--not really following the rules?

Lestrange

July 8th, 2003, 4:58 am

I guess I'm one of the few who thought that Kreacher was funny in the beginning. :scared: I never really pitied him because I never really cared about his character either way. I doubt that if Sirius had been nice to him, he wouldn't have betrayed him. Kreacher was made what he was by wizards, so either way he probably still hated Sirius for running away and not being a Dark Wizard...

...If we ever see what becomes of Kreacher, I hope that Harry does not see him in person. If he does, he will most definetely attack him, house-elf of not.

Remus Lupin #1

July 8th, 2003, 5:17 am

I don't like Kreacher I didn't since he was first introduced, I like Dobby though, Kreacher makes me so mad I knew he was a traitor and he is a lot of the reason why Sirius died, I think he will get what is coming to him in the next books hopefully well he better.

danwilkie

July 8th, 2003, 3:27 pm

I have to disagree with most of you - I thought Kreacher was pretty cool. I laughed out loud every time he muttered insults under his breath, apparently not noticing that people could hear him. Then again I also found Mrs Black's Portrait to be entertaining.

OK, Kreacher caused trouble, but you pity Smeagol in Lord of the Rings after he turns bitter, why can't you pity Kreacher.

He's a great character whatever you say.

Veneficus

July 8th, 2003, 4:43 pm

Too bad Kreacher could'nt have been turned to spy for the Order.

FredRocksMySocks

July 8th, 2003, 4:57 pm

I really don't like Kreacher at all, and it makes me laugh that JKR gave him such a...degrading name...like he wasn't worthy of a real name. He really creeped me out too, and I hope that because he has been so mistrustful, Dumbledore does something about him in book 6.

Starrlight

July 9th, 2003, 11:38 pm

The names are great for both Kreacher and Dobby--slave owners named their slaves things like Prince or King or whatever. Kreacher=Creature, and Dobby--like a pony. Rowling didn't give them degrading names--her evil characters (Black fam, Malfoy fam) did. It's brilliant, really, and makes it clear that Kreacher wasn't born evil, he was made--just like Dumbledore said. I think all the posts about hating Kreacher, not sympathizing with him etc. are really missing Rowling's whole point. After reading this thread and the spew thread, I'm convinced that Rowling is going to a lot more with all this in the future.
Also no one responded yet to a point I made above--a Dobby/Kreacher similarity--Dobby goes free on a technicality (he couldn't have really thought Malfoy intended to free him) and Kreacher goes out of the house on a technicality (he couldn't have really thought Sirius meant for him to leave the house)--Here are two house elves doing what humans do all the time--twisting the rules to suit themselves. Dobby and Kreacher are both powerless--but smart enough to get all the power they can within the framework of the rules.

ultimate sacrifice

July 10th, 2003, 12:11 am

Yes, I thought your insight on that point was tremendous, Starrlight! The House Elves are only following the human lead. Very insightful, indeed.

Severely Snapped

July 10th, 2003, 12:27 am

Originally posted by cindy054176 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=391329#post391329))
Apparently I'm the only one, but before the whole Sirius thing, I thought Kreature was hilarious. He was so creepy and I just thought his rebelliousness was really funny. I also love how he couldn't seem to keep thoughts to himself.

I thought so, too! I never thought I'd meet a house-elf who didn't annoy the crud out of me, and along came this snarky little bugger with his muttered insults (all the funnier because they were so obviously meant to be overheard). And then he goes off and becomes a right little old murderer. :(

One interesting sidenote about the way Sirius treated Kreacher. Remember what Sirius told Ron in GoF? "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."

That line seems very ironic to me now.

Starrlight

July 10th, 2003, 12:34 am

Ultimate Sacrifice: Thanks for your comments!
Severely: I think Dumbledore explains Sirius very well--he says that Sirius was nice to house elves in general, but Kreacher was part of a family, a house that he hated. Kreacher represented something old and evil to him--Sirius didn't dislike him because he was a house elf. But because he thinks house elves are inferior perhaps, he could be much crueler to him than to any humans. This is an example of Rowling making the characters nicely complex and imperfect. I think Sirius's attitudes are actually quite true-to-life.

PlaceboAddict

July 10th, 2003, 12:43 am

Alright, you Kreacher supporters can paint this anyway you want, with your talk of 'environment' and how cruel everyone was, and blah blah blah. But I boil my feelings for him down to a very simple conclusion:

Me like Sirius. Sirius dead now. Kreacher contributes to death of Sirius. Me HATE Kreacher.

It may be closed minded, but it works! :bigtu:

FredRocksMySocks

July 10th, 2003, 12:44 am

i dunno. i understand where DD comes from, and I agree with Hermione a lot on the spew issue, but kreacher, because of what he was made out to be, is just not a likeable characture. and i don't blame sirius for treating him the way he did. i think it was appropriate. agreed with starlight on that issue, i guess.

Arunananth

July 10th, 2003, 12:45 am

I was hoping Sirius would kill Kreacher somewhere in the book. I felt kind of angry that Dumbledore did not kill Kreacher after Sirius died. Atleast Dumbledore should have ordered Kreacher to leave the house.

Starrlight

July 10th, 2003, 12:51 am

Placebo--oh come on, saying Kreacher was made not born doesn't mean I "support" him! Why does it all have to be black and white: Sirius good, Kreacher evil? Of course I think that Kreacher acted in an evil way and I'm sorry that Sirius is dead! Actually, Sirius is to be commended for turning out as well as he did considering who his family was! I love the books for their stories--but can't we talk about some themes, too?

summergrl5

July 10th, 2003, 1:03 am

[quote]Originally posted by Lestrange (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=433100#post433100))
I guess I'm one of the few who thought that Kreacher was funny in the beginning. :scared: I never really pitied him because I never really cared about his character either way. I doubt that if Sirius had been nice to him, he wouldn't have betrayed him. Kreacher was made what he was by wizards, so either way he probably still hated Sirius for running away and not being a Dark Wizard...

Yes I agree! I thought Kreacher's "asides" were freakin' hilarious. I didn't really think about him too much, until the end when I realized what he had done. Then I particularly didn't care for him....and I do agree about the part that he was a victim of his environment.

PlaceboAddict

July 10th, 2003, 1:19 am

Yeah Starrlight, you're right. But I'm still in the Anger phase of post death emotions, so I'm still not ready to forgive Kreacher. and under your theory, you could say the same about V-dawg, really. He's a victim of his environment as well. So are most serial killers, but do we sympathize with them? I know there's a difference between human and houself, and Kreacher is kindof cute in a pathetic way, but I'm still angry with him.... and that's final... lol

Starrlight

July 10th, 2003, 1:26 am

Placebo:
I understand the anger phase well, and will allow you to feel it fully until you are ready to move on.
I guess I'm uncomfortable with the idea that when I state that we should acknowledge that mistreating others creates bad situations, it means that I'm "supporting" and "sympathizing" with evil. How will the human race ever move forward, how will people ever get better if we don't move past the anger stage? Why can't we think instead of just feel? Feeling without thinking leads to as much trouble as thinking without feeling. Can change come without taking responsibility for the state the world is in today?

MotherBear1975

July 15th, 2003, 12:35 pm

Read about this in another thread, but It was off topic and I don't see another tread similar yet...

Does anyone realize that Kreacher could possibly go to Bellatrix or Narcissa to serve now? While they're not "Black"s they ARE blood kin....

familiar

July 15th, 2003, 12:39 pm

I don't think they will let him leave. He has heard too much about the OOTP. Also, he is so attached to the house he may not want to leave. All of Mrs. Blacks stuff is still there, and her painting. Although, knowing what he did, it may be too much for the OOTP member, not to mention Harry, to return to the house with Kreacher there.

MotherBear1975

July 15th, 2003, 12:39 pm

So, which is it to be for him... hot oil or the rack? (Quote from "Ever After")

MotherBear1975

July 15th, 2003, 12:41 pm

But with the death of Sirus, he's not bound to the house anymore! And I got the impression in CoS that a free house elf is considerably more powerful than a Wizard (at least Dobby was more powerful than Mr Malfoy)

Picko

July 15th, 2003, 12:42 pm

He'll be forced to stay at the house because of the information he has.

I also think we need an edit of the topic name because what is currently there has nothing to do with the topic being discussed :D

Remquo

July 15th, 2003, 12:49 pm

Let's get going with the club then....

I have composed a team song...it goes like this

'We hate Kreacher,
There is no more horrible creature,
He's sly and he's mean,
all bony and lean,
and has the most horrible features!

Oh we hate Kreacher,
We really hate him we do,
And if you say you like him,
we'll probably hate you too!'

Erm...ok, so it needs work....lol

Luv Remmy, xxx

Dedalus

July 15th, 2003, 12:53 pm

Was what he did really his fault though, enough to hate him? I mean ... he seems completely mental, and so he can't really be blamed for his actions. If he can be, then yes I hate him an awful lot, but if Dumbledore is right, and Kreacher was moulded by his owners and driven mad then he can't really be such an evil bugger as he seems.

But aside that, are house elves bound to a person or to the like entire household? It could be that he's tied to the Black's house as much as the family, because he's been living there all alone before Black returned to it, taking instructions from Sirius' mum all the time when he could have sought other family members. Whatever the reason, he could have left before and he didn't.

Lestrange

July 15th, 2003, 12:53 pm

Originally posted by MotherBear1975 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=456656#post456656))
So, which is it to be for him... hot oil or the rack? (Quote from "Ever After")

They should probably give him what he's wanted since the beginning of Book 5. *takes out machete*

Actually, I think that he'll have a heart attack from excitment when he realizes that he pretty much killed Sirius and he can go and serve another family. So I think he'll just be dead.

Remquo

July 15th, 2003, 12:58 pm

*muttering....* all right...

Seriously though, I suppose he's only what he is because of the way he has been treated his whole life...you almost feel sorry for him when you take the Hermione POV into consideration.

Still, I don't like him, that's for sure...he really creeps me out, the other night I had this really warped dream (too much HP on my mind), and Kreacher was in it trying to give me a glass of water and I was really freaked out....erm, sorry for telling you that, lol.

Hotmama2

July 15th, 2003, 1:34 pm

MotherBear......I say go with the rack AND hot oil!! :)

Loz

July 15th, 2003, 1:52 pm

Uhmm... this really is very similar to the "About a certain Kreacher" thread...

But for my two cents, sign me up for the club ;)

Carnelian

July 15th, 2003, 1:53 pm

I think Kreacher is bound now to whomever is designated Sirius's heir, and knowing Sirius he either named Tonks or Harry his heir. If if is Harry, I can see him wanting to "dispose" of Kreacher, but this may cause a rift with Hermione, what with S.P.E.W..

UndÃ³miel

July 15th, 2003, 1:58 pm

now that you mentioned house-elves, do you people reckon that, by the end of OotP, Hermione knew already that her SPEW project (the hats, socks, etc) wasnÂ´t working?

familiar

July 15th, 2003, 1:59 pm

Originally posted by Carnelian (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=456806#post456806))
I think Kreacher is bound now to whomever is designated Sirius's heir, and knowing Sirius he either named Tonks or Harry his heir. If if is Harry, I can see him wanting to "dispose" of Kreacher, but this may cause a rift with Hermione, what with S.P.E.W..

Yeah, Harry would want to use Kreacher for "Curse" practice and Hermione probably wouldn't approve of that :rasp:

Remquo

July 15th, 2003, 2:06 pm

Not many people here seem to hate Kreacher....I'll have to modify my song...it's a few posts up, lol

IThinkNot

July 15th, 2003, 2:07 pm

how did Hermione know SPEW wasn't working, again? refresh my memory?

UndÃ³miel

July 15th, 2003, 2:12 pm

I have no idea, thatÂ´s why iÂ´m asking. Which will be her next step?

Cat

July 15th, 2003, 2:24 pm

I don't hate Kreacher.

Firstly because I think he's an ace character. I like horrible characters.

Secondly because, as Dedalus said, he was driven mad. A mad person can't be blamed for their actions. He went mad because of the way house elves are expected to behave. It put him in a bad position. He was lonely and angry and yearned for his master and mistress. The solitude and loss drove him insane (and Hermione seemed to think the same thing had near happened to Sirius!).

But I agree with Sirius that he's a little toerag. Sirius said that Kreacher was almost as bad before his mum died.

jimmifer

July 15th, 2003, 2:25 pm

I think Hermione will go on with the SPEW thing, but I think she'll be a lot more suspicious and a lot less naive, now that shes seen what Kreacher did.

I think shes learnt the lesson that in every "species" there are good and evil, house-elves cant all be deprived little bundles of love, like a certain Dobby character lol [who, by the way, I think is rather adorable - and also very funny in the movies!]

But yes, with Kreacher, I have no idea whats going to happen with him, it could be very interesting - its a pity he knows so much about the order. Lets hope he has a terrible accident with the fire poker [if he ever gets round to doing any work] - but then again, it might be better if he goes to narcissa or bellatrix. The Order's got a lot of work ahead of them and the longer Kreacher stays, the more he knows.

Maybe Harry and Lupin will insist on Kreacher reaching the same fate as his ancestors and have his head cut off and stuck on the banister? It is, after all, like Ron says, Kreachers ambition - and who are we to get in between an evil little house elf and his goal in life??

Loving the song by the way Remquo lol

Remquo

July 15th, 2003, 2:40 pm

Lol, cheers jimmifer!

I came back here to post some in-depth thoughts on Kreacher only to find everyone had already said them...:grumble:

So, erm...yeah, I agree...or disagree, it depends...

MotherBear1975

July 15th, 2003, 2:46 pm

I don't think Hermione will be so keen to defend Kreacher when (if) she finds out what he did. And while at the begining of the book it did seem like Kreacher had lost his marbles, it took remarkable presence of mind to twist "Out!" into "Get out of the house and go tell whatever tales you can to Narcissa Malfoy". Lonliness can push some to extremes, but Kreacher completely rejected Hermione's attempts to befriend him, and I think that if the others had seen some reaponse there, they would, perhaps have treated him a little more decently. It was a complete betrayel of his master to tell a lie which he *had* to know could ultimately lead to his masters death.

Cat

July 15th, 2003, 2:55 pm

But, in all fairness, he had lost a lot of marbles. He had enough sense in him to act, but he also muttered to himself. The lack of cleaning also seems like the equivalent of a human that stops having baths. The madness made him more wretched.

fawkesthepheonix

July 15th, 2003, 4:05 pm

Originally posted by Remquo (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=456681#post456681))
Let's get going with the club then....

I have composed a team song...it goes like this

'We hate Kreacher,
There is no more horrible creature,
He's sly and he's mean,
all bony and lean,
and has the most horrible features!

Oh we hate Kreacher,
We really hate him we do,
And if you say you like him,
we'll probably hate you too!'

Erm...ok, so it needs work....lol

Luv Remmy, xxx

:rotfl: Nice song, Remquo!

superviln

July 15th, 2003, 4:24 pm

Hi I'm new. I have read all the evadence
I Hate Kreacher, sign me up

FredRocksMySocks

July 15th, 2003, 4:36 pm

Cat--he's lost his marbles, true..so what happened to the tradition of beheading the house elves when they are no longer useful. I think we could forego the hot oil and the rack and go straight to mounting him up on the wall, don't you? ;)
Sign me up!

Amanalcariel

July 15th, 2003, 4:56 pm

I hope they just chop off his head already. Stupid little git. Sirius couldve still been alive if it wasnt for him.

Remquo

July 15th, 2003, 5:14 pm

hehehe....people like the song....new verse!

We hate that nasty elf,
Who only thinks of himself,
He's smelly and rude,
Always in a bad mood,
His head belongs on a shelf!

FredRocksMySocks

July 15th, 2003, 5:22 pm

his skin's 8 sizes too big
a grave for him we will dig
and we'll bury that turd
leave his eyes for a bird
cause that kreacher is an ungrateful pig.

Remquo

July 15th, 2003, 5:26 pm

*gives FredRocksMySocks a pat on the back*

You are learning, grasshopper....LOL. It was great!

Lets get everyone to write a verse! We can put it all together at the end and see what we end up with. This can be our club challenge of the week...:p

Now lets see, what rhymes with horrible.....lol

Luv Remmy, xxx

SadieBee123

July 15th, 2003, 7:00 pm

Remquo, luv your song! lol. i always wondered why, as many people have said, they didn't just give Kreacher his wish and put his head on a plaque. i really really don't like him, never did! yes, he is sorta crazy, but Sirius had said he was always like that, even when Sirius's mum was there. Sign me up too! =)

SadieBee123

July 15th, 2003, 7:02 pm

i mean, sry, Remquo luv your idea!! =) and good song FredRocksMySocks!!!!

AurorSlayer

August 2nd, 2003, 7:38 pm

Kreacher lied to Harry and Dumbledore. He betrayed Sirius to the Malfoys and Voldemort. However, he was also a slave to the Black family, and Dumbledore said that Kreacher is only product of wizard upbringing and that Sirius should have treated Kreacher with more respect; therefore, suggesting that Kreacher had some justification for the actions he took which helped lead to Sirius's death. If you were in Kreacher's place, would you have done the same thing?

London_luv89

August 2nd, 2003, 7:43 pm

All I'm saying is that I HATE Kreacher!!!!!

fawkesthepheonix

August 2nd, 2003, 7:49 pm

Good question. Although I understand where you're coming from, I don't think what Kreacher did was justified. Yes, Kreacher should've been treated with more respect, but that doesn't call for him betraying Sirius. Up until they were freed, Dobby and Winky haven't been treated with any respect, either, but they didn't betray their masters before their freedom.

It's hard to say whether or not I would've done the same thing as Kreacher, because Kreacher wasn't completely....well, sane. But I don't think I could betray someone like that, especially someone I was bound to like house elves are to their masters, no more how badly I was treated.

AlaskanHPfan

August 2nd, 2003, 7:59 pm

To tell you the truth, I never thought that Kreacher or his family was ever really right in the mind. Who would strive to be decapitated? So to he probably could never really think logically. Warped genes to say the least. So being a logical thinker, I'd have to say no. My sense of loyalty would definitely never allow it.

Cat

August 2nd, 2003, 8:04 pm

Betraying somebody and putting them in the position that got them killed is never right, no matter what cicumstances you're under.

Besides, I don't think Sirius should have treated Kreacher with more respect. It was humanity that made Kreacher what he is, but not Sirius. Sirius was mean to Kreacher because Kreacher was a little swine, not because he was a house elf. House elves are as capable of defending themselves (we know that from Dobby) as they are of knowing right from wrong. It's wrong to coddle them and pretend that everything they do is not their fault. They're as capabale as human beings, and human beings are capable of doing bad things.

I don't think Kreacher was right. But I think Hermione was wrong. I also think Dumbledore was wrong, but I'm still not sure what it actually is he was suggesting about Kreacher.

Quasi_EviL

August 2nd, 2003, 8:39 pm

Kreacher's a malicious devil in our eyes, but he didn't think that Sirius had any call to boss him about, seeing as he had been burnt of the family tree. He didn't feel the need to be loyal to anyone who disgraced the name of Black, because that was what he had been taught.
And though we know that house elves do possess a certain intelligence, if anyone is taught something through generations, from childhood to adulthood, it will eventually be stamped in their minds.

Fortescue

August 2nd, 2003, 8:51 pm

It seemed to me that Kreacher was a brainwashed slave of Mrs. Black's portrait. I agree, he should be pitied. I mean, I'm sure if he had originally came from a family like the Weasleys, he would not have been as prejudiced against the "good guys." If I were in his place? Well, it's hard to say because I'm not a brainwashed slave of a half-crazed witch who has decapitated house-elf heads for house decor. So in my opinion, it's not entirely Kreacher's fault; it's more of Sirius' parents.

toryvic

August 2nd, 2003, 8:55 pm

The tragedy of the whole Sirius/ Kreacher incident is that the chances are that if Sirius was only a little bit nicer to Kreacher then he prob wouldn't have ratted on Sirius to the DEs (DD makes this point later on in his office)
I understand however, why Sirius was horrid to Kreacher. It must be horrible having to return to your childhood home and have to live with a barmy elf!!!

AurorSlayer

August 2nd, 2003, 9:32 pm

I somewhat agree with the "brainwashing" argument, but Rowling also seems to be trying to making a point about the effects of slavery ever since Dobby first appeared. True, Kreacher was left alone for years with Mrs. Black's hateful portrait, however, but it is unclear if she was constantly sniping about mudbloods and other "traitors" before the OoTP decided to make Grimmauld Place their new HQ. My guess is that she was not since there were no "traitors" living with Kreacher during this time.

There were obviously differences between Dobby and Kreacher's behavior, but not even Dobby said that he ever hated slavery. He may enjoy his independence, but he's not a card carrying member of S.P.E.W. either. If Rowling is trying to make a point about the effects of slavery, she should show a lot more hatred and discuss from the house-elves everywhere. I never read a story about slaves who didn't revolt at sometime against their masters.

nightingale

August 2nd, 2003, 9:32 pm

Nah..I don't think Kreacher was right. I can understand why one would think that, but I don't agree. Even if you loathe someone, getting them killed isn't right. (This brings up a point, did Kreacher actually plot to kill Sirius? He couldn't have possibly known the Bellatrix would kill him? He was just relaying information to Narcissa, the only member of his family he had any respect left for as Dumbeldore says on p. 829 of OoTP (what about Bellatrix?). On the other hand, he did say that Sirius would never come back from the DoM when Harry asked where Sirius was, but this could have just been to go along with the plan to make Harry think that Voldemort had Sirius in the DoM. ) Whatever Kreacher thought he was doing, I'm positive he knew what he was doing would result in something bad, hurting Harry and/or Sirius. Also, I don't agree with Hermione on being nice to Kreacher. She was nice to him, and that didn't change his attitude towards her. On that note, you could argue that she wasn't his master, as Sirius was, and that he felt she was beneath him because she was muggle-born. However, Sirius had been disowned by his mother (whom Kreacher loved terribly) and supposedly dishonoured (what these people think honour is, I do not know), so I'm not sure that his opinion of Sirius would have changed much had Sirius been nicer to him, which would have been really hard and strange for Sirius to do. Kreacher felt that he was being loyal to Sirius's mother and the rest of the Blacks and what they stood for by betraying Sirius, he weighed his options and choose his path. I suppose he is what the Blacks before Sirius made him, after all, your environment has a lot to do with who you become, and his mind was so set and made that even if Sirius had been nice, it wouldn't have really changed.

FredRocksMySocks

August 2nd, 2003, 9:51 pm

I don't necessarily think that Kreacher was right, but I don't think his understanding of right and wrong was dead center. He seems to me to be a bit warped in the mind, and though he is still to be blamed, it can almost be understood. He is not bound to tell the truth, but he is also not bound to lie. But, again, his descision making was probably messed from years of serving a portrait, ect ect ect.

In no way, however, does that make his actions right or ok. It is just...well...I guess we can understand why he did such a thing. But, again, understanding his reasons behind it doesn't make what he did ok.

Aldawen

August 2nd, 2003, 10:22 pm

Nobody, especially not Sirius, deserves to be killed by a house-elf. Of course he was not justified.

Hammi

August 2nd, 2003, 11:00 pm

I guess we can't really blame Kreacher, he was only doing what his former master (mrs. black) would have wanted. He was never really aware of right and wrong. It almost makes it hard to blame him, almost

moon781

August 3rd, 2003, 12:01 am

i hate kreacher its all his fault! (well maybe not all his fault)

his master was sirius reguardless of how he felt about his master he should have obeyed him, not betrayed him

although if i go by my own theory here dobby was out of line in book 2..... can we adjust the rules accordingly for house elfs?

GonzoBean

August 3rd, 2003, 12:33 am

Good question indeed! I was actually quite angered with Dumbledore for saying that Sirius should have treated Kreacher with more respect. He's really a filthy creature, Kreacher. He's mad, and angered at Sirius for leaving his Dark roots, ya know? And when Hermione tried acting nice to the elf, he didn't really give in, so I guess Kreacher should just have his head on the wall like his ancestors....which makes me wonder why Sirius didn't chop him up before.

jordmundt6

August 3rd, 2003, 1:41 am

London--Great Sig still. Where did you get it? On Kreacher. Was he righ? No, of course not. Is he justified--well, what exactly passes for rational thinking in a creature that's had probably a good sixty years of fits and cursing to listen to all day long? He saw the order he'd grown up with crumbling and being destroyed by someone he'd been conditioned to belive had disgraced the family. His revolt (and it was actually quite passive compared to Dobby's) is understandable. He feels no personal loyalty to the current family member in charge of the house, so he seeks out a more "honorable" master. Kreacher should have been treated with more respect. However, I doubt his attitude would have improved with it. Though, if Sirius hadn't lost his temper, Kreacher never would have had license to leave the house. It just depnds on how you slice this.

Carbito

August 3rd, 2003, 4:23 am

I think Sirius should have treated Kreacher better but if he had there might be no reason for Harry to go to the department of mystries. You have to rember that this is all a book.

rons-lover

August 3rd, 2003, 5:51 am

Well I personally, would not do what Kreacher did, but then I'm not rotten to the core... :p

Oh, and I also think Sirius should have treated Kreacher better. Sure Kreacher was wrong in doing what he did. But Sirius still could've been nicer...

Miss_Quibbler

August 3rd, 2003, 9:12 am

Kreacher was made what he was by sirius' parents, and for the past ten years he'd been taking orders from a portrait and lets face it he wasnt compleatly sane. This doesnt make what he did right or justified although to kreacher it would have been. He wouldnt have seen it as wrong it was just a way to get those 'filthy blood traitors' out of the house. Sirius could have been nicer, and more tolerant but he had good reason not to be. I would never do what kreacher did but i havnt been taking orders from a portrait for the last ten years.

Moonstone

August 3rd, 2003, 9:16 am

Cat

August 3rd, 2003, 9:48 am

Alright, I do think that Sirius could have been more pleasant with Kreacher. He could have simply not said anything at all. I mean, Kreacher was clearly bonkers so it would have been best not to provoke him.

I don't think that the situation would have been avoided if Sirius had been nicer to him. Kreacher would have found another excuse to leave the house, and he still would have betrayed him. Kreacher thought he was doing the right thing, he wasn't just doing it to get at Sirius. Kreacher hated everybody in that house. He spoke ill of Hermione who was practically a saint to him.

Kizz

August 3rd, 2003, 9:59 am

I agree with what Cat just posted. Kreacher is a product of his treatment. Dumbledore seemed to believe that Kreacher could be charmed over - I can't help thinking that it was too late for that. I don't think killing someone for a life of tourment equates too well, but as everyone's mentioned, Kreacher's practically off his nut.

GrangerGal

August 3rd, 2003, 10:58 am

I also agree with Kizz and Cat. I think that Kreacher was a product of his environment, and although that does not justify his actions or make them right, it does explain why he behaved the way he did. He too was a victim. Not all victims lash out in a horrible way (look at Harry) but different enviornments bring out different aspects in people. If Kreacher was in a loving home such as the Weasleys, his loyal nature would have seemed sweet and good. Unfortunately his loyalty was to a horrid family and therefore he too acted horrible.

Cish_hp92

August 3rd, 2003, 11:47 am

come what may, Kreacher was bound to serve the Blacks for the rest of his life!!!if Kreacher hadn't thought Sirius to be a mad convincted escaped murdered and a disgrace to the Black family, Sirius wouldn't have had to behave badly with him!!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!
I HATE KREACHER!

RedCape

August 3rd, 2003, 12:25 pm

Whether or not he was mistreated by Sirius, treachery is treachery. Yes, Kreacher's outlook on life was warped by a lifetime in the Black family household, but he was not completely insane. Like Dobby before him, he was able to exercise some free will, despite being enslaved, and Kreacher chose to do ill instead of good. He certainly understood what he was doing and was capable of keeping secrets and lying when needed to carry out the plan as directed by the Malfoys. One can understand why he did what he did, but being a victim himself would not justify the choices he made.

I agree with Moonstone. Well said.

One can understand why Sirius treated Kreacher like he did also. Sirius was back in a place he hated with a passion. Kreacher felt the same way about Sirius as the rest of Sirius's family did. I doubt Kreacher had ever been nice to young Sirius. It's amazing with that as your knowledge of house elves that Sirius still was nice to other house elves. (His comments to Hermoine in GoF.)

Sirius should have been nicer to Kreacher, but was he cruel to him (If I missed something let me know) other than using words? Did he beat him and encourage him to punish himself like the Malfoy's did with Dobby? Did he kill Kreacher to eliminate the worry that Kreacher would betray the Order?

No. While Sirius wasn't very nice to Kreacher, he didn't step over the line. Kreacher did.

Ms.Sirius

August 3rd, 2003, 12:26 pm

I'll have to agree with many and say Kreacher is a nasty little maggot that needs to be boiled in oil!! Now that I got that out, I think if he was treated badly by Black, that still didn't give him the right to betray him. I would also have to agree that he was a bit brainwashed and a bit loony. I don't think Sirius could have treated him any differently and made him change. And poor Sirius had to pay the price.
:upset:

TheBoss

August 3rd, 2003, 4:46 pm

i'd love to say bad thigns about Kreacher, but heck, look at some of the other charachters.. they turned out to be completely different than they were brought in to be! we might find something that we're unaware of or have overlooked at the moment.. also, we didnt hear too much about Sirius and the rest of his family, yeah we know it was junk and they were all treated like :censored:, BUT look at James, completely different than some people thought he was.. maybe he meant what he did in a different way(that's unkown to us) :shrug: at this moment, i hate Kreacher.. killing off a strong character, i feel quite important to the book.. BUT the lord works in mysterious ways :)

Fuchsia

August 3rd, 2003, 5:21 pm

Cish_hp92, please refrain from spamming the forum. Once is more than enough.

hp_fan_01

August 3rd, 2003, 6:09 pm

i HATE Kreacher!! its his fault Sirius is dead! :upset:

Leah_Jones

August 3rd, 2003, 6:41 pm

Kreacher deserves to die a painful, long, horrible death.

ana_banana

August 3rd, 2003, 7:00 pm

Im sorry to say this. But Kreacher is totally dumb.
Serving two masters....sending one to them to death. HE KNEW. He lied to Harry. He risked not only Sirius's life, but MANY OTHER PEOPLE'S.

Weatherby

August 3rd, 2003, 8:42 pm

Kreacher wasn't dumb. Even if he had wanted to tell Harry he couldn't.
Dobby's behaviour in CoS isn't normal for most House Elves. Winky wouldn't betray her master without the truth serum either. Was she wrong? If you don't have understanding of the greater picture I wouldn't judge them.
Show a little compassion for those with tortured minds. He was snogging his dead master's pants afterall.

I'm going to merge this thread with 'About A Certain Creature'. :)

Loz

August 4th, 2003, 2:33 am

Wow... this thread didn't make it to the forbidden forest... thanks Weatherby.

Kreacher wasn't dumb - far from it, he was an incredibly intelligent character, which makes it all the sadder. He was truly pathetic, and he chose to betray his true owner, Sirius, because of the environment he was brought up in. I used to hate him, now I don't hate him... I don't pity him either,... I just accept that he exists.

FredRocksMySocks

August 4th, 2003, 3:51 am

I wouldn't go as far to say that he was incredibly intelligent, he was clever. And sneaky. And also a little on the loppy side. He is to be pitied, because his existance is sad. To be hated? Perhaps. I won't argue for or against that one. But betraying his owner, I doubt in his mind he realized it was the wrong choice. Probably thought that he was doing what the rest of the family would have wished. That he wasn't betraing his true owner, because he didn't view Sirius as his master at all, really.

It was a choice he made. Dumb? Atcually, it was clever of him to sneak off to the Mafloys and do all the work that involved the betrayal. Not good, but clever.

Puffskein

August 4th, 2003, 7:31 am

I'd like to think Dumbledore is always right, in spite of his old man's mistakes. So I'll say that while Kreacher's betrayal was little short of monstrous, it could have been prevented. We should pay attention to the fact that Dumbledore puts Kreacher's betrayal in a social context - "He is what he has been made by wizards." That means Mrs Black as well as Sirius. The fact that Kreacher is a nasty piece of work shouldn't save everyone else examining their consciences. I think Hermione's principles are basically right - if the downtrodden go bad, it's because they're downtrodden, and a few hopeless cases don't make discrimination OK.

Fuchsia

August 4th, 2003, 7:37 am

Well said, Puffskein.

Kreacher was made by the family he served. It's the houseelf mentality to be what your family wishes. Can he blamed for doing what he's made for?

GrangerGal

August 4th, 2003, 3:19 pm

Fuchsia - Well said, Puffskein. Kreacher was made by the family he served. It's the houseelf mentality to be what your family wishes. Can he blamed for doing what he's made for?

Hummm I agree. I think that Kreacher had a loyal nature unfortunately he was loyal to the Blacks. I still hate him but I like Fuchsia's reasoning and concise way of putting how Kreacher became such a well you know...

kiten_magic

August 5th, 2003, 11:02 pm

"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -Sirius Black

I wonder if Sirius knew what he was saying when he said this... He sure doesnt treat kreacher very nicely.... BTW Kreacher is very missunderstood... he would be crying over Sirius's boxers if Sirius would treat him better!!!
Maybe i will start a S.P.E.W group thingy,
is there one already?hmmmmm

Starrlight

August 5th, 2003, 11:05 pm

KM--Dumbledore points out that Sirius is nice to house elves in general, but hated Kreacher because he represented the whole Black family and house. I actually thought that rather than an inconsistency, this represents some excellent characterization that shows Rowling making Sirus very human.

nightingale

August 5th, 2003, 11:15 pm

Someone mentioned that, at least, instead of being nice to Kreacher, Sirius could have said nothing at all. " 'Sirius did not hate Kreacher,' said Dumbledore. 'He reagarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike...' " (p. 834, OoTP).

FredRocksMySocks

August 6th, 2003, 12:23 am

I doubt he would be upset over Sirius, even if he was nice as can be. Kreacher's loyaly was to his mother, and his mother reguarded Sirius as a bad person. Kreacher followed suit.

Loz

August 6th, 2003, 2:41 am

Hmm... and being a house-elf there was the construct Kreacher didn't have a choice - but Dobby did choose his path. House-elves may be subservient beings but they choose to be this way. Is this wrong? Well... I think so. And so does Hermione. But they still can choose to be the way they want.

Kreacher chose to behave the way he behaved. Kreacher chose this because of the way he was brought up, but Dobby didn't, he rebelled against the way he was treated at the Malfoys'. Under this there is the ever present theme that choices are what make us who we are, even under extenuating circumstances. Which is why I hark back to the 'kreacher is the anti-dobby' statement I made at the start. In a way they both defied their masters for their own intentions, but for completely different reasons. Kreacher's loyalty lay with doing what he thought was right in the name of a small division (Black), Dobby's loyalty lay with doing what he thought was right in the name of the greater good (namely Harry's). Dobby wanted to be free, Kreacher wanted to be ever servile, but only to those he saw fit. They were similar, yet opposite.

I see a bit of a correlation between Harry and Voldemort there. Harry, the anti-voldie, or voldie the anti-harry.

*Jess*

August 6th, 2003, 3:44 am

Omgosh i thought that Kreacher was hilarious!! It sounds mean, i guess..but he was totally crazy!! I found him quite amusing, to say the least..and i mean, how could anyone feel sorry for him?? It's really HIS fault that Sirius is dead!! If he hadn't told Harry that Sirius had gone..aww, i hate kreacher!! lol :D
But Sirius was my fave character.. :upset:

McKinnon02

August 6th, 2003, 4:16 am

A certain Kreacher? You mean there's more than one? :lol: OMG, they've been cloning them. That's how Voldemort is going to destroy Harry. He's going to send an army of Kreachers after him. :lol:

Loz

August 6th, 2003, 4:22 am

McKinnon :p it was just a catchy title - don't freak out.

The idea of a cloned army of Kreachers is seriously disturbing, however. Come to think of it, so's an army of Dobbys or Winkys...

FredRocksMySocks

August 6th, 2003, 5:08 am

*Jess* Kreacher in the beginning was probably meant to be thought of as slightly annoying, but more on the amusing side. Kind of laughing at his insanity. That's why you liked him. Because he wasn't supposed to be hated yet.

And Loz: Any cloned house-elfs are frightening. Just like the ones in the kitchen--they are really creepy! One is more than enough to deal with, let alone 80 all shoving things in your face. I'd go nuts!

kiten_magic

August 6th, 2003, 4:12 pm

hmmmmm

azkaban

August 7th, 2003, 2:28 pm

he's such a shrewd ******* that he could trick everyone in the order, even sirius. how could he betray his master and have another one? i totally agree that it's his fault sirius is dead. if it weren't for him, harry wouldn't have thought what he dreamed was real.
so, as long as he has a big role in the plot now, i think we'll hearing more of him in the next two books.he's the character who caused another important character's death so he won't disappear from the plot in an instant. i think harry will eventually want to avenge him. i don't believe that kreacher won't be back in grimmauld place now that he has no master in there because sirius said that kreacher has lived there on his own for 10 years. but of course, he won't be able to risk it now that there are many people in grimmauld place who have something to tell him!

ultimate sacrifice

August 7th, 2003, 5:06 pm

The whole house elf/Kreacher thing perplexes me! Dobby is so much different and he was with a Dark Wizarding family! Surely there will be consequences for Kreacher regarding his role in Sirius' death.

Mutant for Hire

August 7th, 2003, 5:36 pm

Something everyone should bear in mind was that Kreacher showed the same loyalty to his master in book five that Dobby showed to his master in book two. So what is the difference?

Puffskein

August 8th, 2003, 6:20 am

Good point Mutant. We're all talking about Kreacher's 'treachery', but he saw Sirius as a traitor to the family values. Is it treachery if you betray a traitor?

Dobby's motivation for helping Harry in COS hinges on the fact that Voldemort's first reign was a bad time for house elves. Did Kreacher escape that or does he just not know that Bellatrix and Narcissa are in league with Voldemort?

I think another part of Sirius's tragedy is the fact that his personal history made it totally understandable that he treated Kreacher as he did. That doesn't make it OK, however. You've got to treat people with respect if you want them to stay on your side, no matter what they've done to you.

Hpmons

August 8th, 2003, 6:40 am

There are quite a few reasons why Kreatcher is different from Dobby.
Kretcher has spent a LONG time alone with himself, as Sirius had said in OotP; taking orders from his mothers picture. He believed Sirius was a traitor, because Sirius's mother believed he was.
I believe that Kretcher DID know Narcissa was in league with Voldemort: how could he not, if he was feeding information to help them?

Dobby: He is just ODD for a house elf. Like many people have said to Hermione, most elves dont like freedom; yet Dobby does. Dobby knew that if Voldemort rose again; he would be punished even more than he was then. So he betrayed the Malfoys...And we still dont really know why he did it.

Kretcher was half out of his mind. In a way, he knew he was putting Harry, Sirius etc in danger; and yet he probably didnt know the proper consequences of what he did.
But I do believe that it was mostly his fault for Sirius's death. But the person most to blame? Voldemort of course!

inoLIKEmonkeys

August 9th, 2003, 6:42 pm

im interested in the whole LOTR comparison thing. if kreature is to mirror gollum that means he would turn to work for the order, relapse into his own ways, and in the end be the dark lords downfall. it might not follow the siries that closley bet who knows?

Loz

September 23rd, 2003, 2:45 pm

It would be risky of JKR to make a direct comparison to Gollum/Smeagol though, wouldn't it?

miri

September 23rd, 2003, 3:22 pm

Yeah, I'm definitely harboring great resentments toward Kreacher. If it wasn't for him, Sirius would be alive because Harry would have known his vision was fake. Kreacher should be disposed of.

I wonder if Hermione will feel differently towards House-Elves now that she has seen what one can be capable of?

Surely it just shows once again that House Elves have free will? People have done attrocious things. Is enslaving them right?

Hopefully, it will show her that they aren't as helpless as she first thought, but I believe she'll continue SPEW

Severus Snape1

September 23rd, 2003, 10:54 pm

Surely it just shows once again that House Elves have free will? People have done attrocious things. Is enslaving them right?

Hopefully, it will show her that they aren't as helpless as she first thought, but I believe she'll continue SPEW

Kreacher had free will! I don't know if anyone has posted this yet but.... he freely went about stealing stuff so that Sirius would throw the stuff in the rubbish bin. He freely spoke his mind aloud and didn't care if anyone heard him.

hesdead-dealwithit

September 23rd, 2003, 11:33 pm

I don't think he was "speaking his mind aloud" - I think he was a little insane, that's why he said all his thoughts. If he knew that people heard what he was saying, I think he would be stunned.

Loz

September 24th, 2003, 3:54 am

No, I'm fairly sure he knew. The little ******* definitely had free-will, and I do think Hermione should continue with SPEW, but if he gets any benefits from it I'm not going to be very happy.

prancer

September 24th, 2003, 7:33 pm

i hate the little :censored: I can't believe he actually LAUGHED when he told dumbledore where sirius had gone-that's just sick. I honestly wanted to throttle dumledore and hermione when they stood up for him-i do know they had a point, but if kreacher is the way he is because of his owner, there's probably no chance to turn him around. They should have set him free before they started talking about the order, then none of that would have happened. Honestly, would it have killed them to go, "here's on old sock of your mistresses's kreacher, get out." and then waited until he was out of the house to start discussing their plans about voldemort? I know he didn't want to leave, but that's too bad, they should have made him.

Hedwig_Ce

September 24th, 2003, 7:45 pm

Hi
Excuse my poor English, but I´m from Argentina

I agree with you.
It´s a rat, thatt little freak.
And it´s not "part" of its fault that Sirius died. It IS his fault.
i swear I´d give it clothes and other stuffs....
:rasp:

miri

September 24th, 2003, 8:00 pm

He has free will, and he's entitled to both rights and rules. He deliberately carried out not one but several actions that caused one death and put many more lives in danger.

IF he hadn't run to the Malfoys, Voldemort wouldn't have known about the connection.
IF Voldy hadn't known about the connection, he wouldn't have duped Harry.
IF Kreacher hadn't reinforced the lie, 6 students would not have been fighting for their lives in the DoM
IF they had not been there, neither would another 6 members of the Order
IF they had not been there, Sirius would not have fallen through the veil

He started a chain reaction that caused Sirius' death; and gave it a further push. He knew what he was doing. He should be punished.

Do I pity him? He's pitiful but he's so eaten up with bitterness that I can't feel anything friendlier than antipathy for him.

Do I think Sirius treated him badly?

In Kreacher's view - yes. He tried to change the way his mistress (whom he still wished to serve, as Winky wished to serve the Crouches after her liberation) had kept the house. He let people in his mistress wouldn't have done. He didn't give Kreacher what he strived towards.

In Sirius' view - no. During his childhood, it's highly possible that Mrs Black treated Kreacher better than she treated him, her son. The house elf drank up and thrived off of ideas that disgusted him. Sirius didn't want Kreacher there, and let him stay out of (presumably) kindness (why else would you keep on a servant who resisted all efforts to make a house inhabitable?). He wasn't physically abusive (even though Lucius was, publically, so presumably this is legally acceptable, if morally apprehensible).

In my view, he didn't mistreat the elf. He tollerated him, though perhaps not well. He didn't do anything that warranted Kreacher's betrayal.

ginnybatbogeysyou

January 30th, 2004, 8:38 am

I agree with what Miri said.

Kreacher didn't have to run of to the Malfoys to tell themabout Sirius' love for Harry. If Kreacher hadn't done that, all the other events wouldn't have happened and Sirius would still be alive. Therefore, Kreacher shouldn't be pitied.

Sirius didn't treat him badly. He wasn't as nice to him as he should have been on some occasions, but what could you expect from Sirius? That he would like his hated mother's house-elf?

GryffindorGr

January 30th, 2004, 9:35 am

well, poor ole'house elf, he's just an ugly little thing, old and a has been...
no one cares about him.
but in all seriousness, I didnt like Sirius Black mistreating his little house elf. Kicking him out like that in the cold. I would give him a reproachful look like (just like Hermione did--probably protest) Sirius had some issues and was unjustifiably cruel to Kreacher but he's a great hypocrite, saying that to judge a man by how he treats his inferiors and not his equals says it all. Oh yes, Sirius, you're the philosopher who can't follow his own philosophy.

do you tell a doddering old man that he's no good anymore? what would you have him feel? that his life is worth nothing and shouldn't exist? After years of verbal insanity from a long dead portrait would cause any house elf to go snogging Mr. Black's trousers.

Amadeus

January 31st, 2004, 2:17 am

To me, he seems like the house-elf version of Voldemort. The part where Dumbledore talks about Kreacher laughing his head off after sending Sirius to his death adventure (Department of Mysteries), it really creeped me out. JK really described it well so that the readers could imagine the pure evil, crazy laughter of Kreacher. Just by the fact that the house-elf could be so disobedient and evil (Dobby was disobedient, but not evil) freaks me out.