The Sorting Hat & house relations

[Weatherby]

What do you think the Sorting Hat was hoping to achieve with it's new song? It's done this before so did it's warnings ever work?
Fuchsia and I have a theory - it may resort to placing students in different houses to mix them up. Perhaps putting like-minded students together isn't always whats best for the school.
Peter- really a Slytherin?
Hermione has Ravenclaw tendecies.
How about Luna? She seems more in tune with Gryffindors to me.

Will they ever try to befriend the Slytherins or ignore the hats warning?
At first I thought they'd do away with houses altogether but now I'm not so sure.

[lanifiel]

I reckon if they just destroyed the Slytherin house everything would be much better. Dumbledore has the Ministry where he wants it & his friends where he needs them. Now its time to strike back at the powers of evil and start to get rid of the children who will be the next wave of Death Eaters...

[Weatherby]

If they weren't all together they could make friends who may hold them back.
Hermione is a voice of reason for her friends. Those poor first-years don't stand much chance with Malfoy as prefect.

I think the song may have meant to give Slytherins a chance.

[Inkwolf]

Interestingly, from the song it seems that Salazar Slytherin wasn't the only elitist teacher!

How do you think Slytherin can be brought into unity, when the whole school is against them and even their house head doesn't hang out with the other heads?

[Weatherby]

Exactly. They were supposed to be friends.
Hufflepuff sounds like the only one not elitist.

I rather hope the sorting hat does mix the children in. They need someone inside the house with some sense. Snape isn't evil but he can't or won't help.
I'm also curious about why Rowling only mentions two kids getting sorted.

[bekki791]

Did anyone notice how bad the sorting hat song must have made the Hufflepuffs feel? It said that Slytherin took purebloods, Ravenclaw took the smart students, Gryffindor took the brave ones, and Hufflepuff took the people who didnt really fit in anywhere.

But aside from that...

Maybe the Sorting Hat doesn't only choose according to who belongs where...maybe the Sorting Hat knows what friendships are destined to be. Look at Hermione; she'd do really well in Ravenclaw but she got put in Gryffindor anyway. Cedric could have been in Gryffindor, and he probably could have gotten away in Ravenclaw, but the Sorting Hat made him a Hufflepuff!

Just a thought...maybe I'm wrong....

[Charmed]

Hufflepuff does sound like the least discriminating house.
Though the Sorting Hats warning did seem to have an impact on Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. I don't think we will ever see the day when Slytherin manages to get along with the rest of the school.
I like what lanifiel suggested. Getting rid of Slytherin would solve much of the discord between the houses.

[Perdita]

Hi Weatherby,

The song has been nagging at me for the past few days.

Your theory sounds very intriguing, but wouldn’t the scene in COS where the Sorting Hat had the conversation with Harry indicate that the Sorting Hat does put the students into certain houses based on who they are, and what they’re like?

Maybe I should go and reread that part. I was under the impression that that scene was to explain that when the Sorting Hat places a student in a house, it is the correct house.

I have also been thinking about the song and about how Slytherin and Gryffindor houses used to get along splendidly. I am wondering if Rowling might introduce a new character in book 6, from Slytherin house? She introduced Luna in this book and Luna is fleshed out pretty well. She’s by no means a major character but she is important. She is mysterious and we know that Rowling will follow up on her character in the future.

Since Rowling was successful with Luna, could she also be successful with introducing a new character from Slytherin and Hufflepuff houses?

I’m thinking that it’s more plausible to introduce a new Slytherin character as opposed to using one that is pre-established because I can’t think of any Slytherin character that can realistically turn good and join the Trio.

[Moonstone]

The ominous tone at the end of the song makes me think that it was not Umbridge that the Sorting Hat was referring to, but some greater menace in the near future. It would have to be something very major to bring about the Slytherins working alongside the others.

And now we know the Sorting House believes dividing the students might be a bad idea, possibly weakening the school. Perhaps at the end of the seven books if the four houses will be abolished and the school united as one "As they once were meant to be."

I also do not think the Hufflepuffs have anything to be feeling badly about. It looks like their founder was the most open and flexible of the original four.

[moon_lit_raven]

i think the sorting hat is trying to get all the houses to be friends. and is worked in a way cause as the DA has diferent houses in it although the slytherins weren't involved, all the other houses were starting to get along better weither they knew it or not.

but i also think in order to get the slytherins to be in with the others they should be re-sorted and sylterin house should be taken out. They could even have a new house like phoenix or something and have evryone resorted. although that it a bit far fetched but it would make sense to do something like that to them. or they could try and show the slytherins what their parents do and that might work cause then they may not become D.Es

[Elektra]

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=394028#post394028))
Hi Weatherby,

The song has been nagging at me for the past few days.

Your theory sounds very intriguing, but wouldn’t the scene in COS where the Sorting Hat had the conversation with Harry indicate that the Sorting Hat does put the students into certain houses based on who they are, and what they’re like?


Weatherby might have a different perspective on this, but here's mine.

There are two primary elements that determine which House a student is placed in: their intrinsic qualities, and their desires and choices ("It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"). Harry, for instance, based on his intrinsic qualities, could have done "very well" in Slytherin. As Dumbledore points out, he not only speaks Parseltongue, but he's resourceful, determined, has a disregard for rules, etc. However, Harry's choices -- his desire to be brave and noble and do the right thing -- landed him in Gryffindor. The same goes for Hermione. Her braininess and magical skill would make her an excellent candidate for Ravenclaw, but I think she values the traits of a Gryffindor more ("Books and cleverness? There are more important things, Harry"). Cedric was obviously very brave and intelligent, making him a possible candidate for either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw, but I think he ultimately valued fairness and friendship over both of those things (the exact qualities that Voldemort opposes, BTW, which make his death particularly symbolic). I suspect Black was put into Gryffindor for similar reasons; his family history would have made him just as much a prime candidate for Slytherin as ever Draco was, and he, like Harry, possesses many of the traits of a Slytherin, but he was placed in Gryffindor because he valued its principles over those of Slytherin's. Malfoy and the Weasleys, on the other hand, all have the intrinsic dispositions of their Houses, not just because of their lineage, but also because they have been raised to value their respective principles. So, they end up being a "sure thing" for either Slytherin or Gryffindor. Which, I think, also tells us something about the fate of Percy: he was put in Gryffindor, not Slytherin, which means when it really comes down to having power or doing the right thing, Percy will side back with his family. I think his problem in Book 5 was one more of understanding than intent. Now that the truth has come out, I think we'll see Percy joining the Order, and most likely showing a little humility now that he's been overconfident enough to fail at doing the right thing.

Elektra

[Elektra]

[i]Originally posted by moon_lit_raven
but i also think in order to get the slytherins to be in with the others they should be re-sorted and sylterin house should be taken out. They could even have a new house like phoenix or something and have evryone resorted. although that it a bit far fetched but it would make sense to do something like that to them. or they could try and show the slytherins what their parents do and that might work cause then they may not become D.Es


I don't think all the kids in Slytherin are destined to become Death Eaters, and I don't think all their parents are already Death Eaters. Feeling a superiority of blood is not one of the prerequisite qualities of being sorted into Slytherin House; those are resourcefulness, determination, cunning, etc., which Harry and Sirius have both shown to be positive traits when put to the right ends. I think the DE mentality is not something ALL Slytherins must believe in, it is just the negative legacy of Salazar Slytherin and his heirs (Voldemort being the last in that line) which the Slytherins have to overcome by reaching out to the rest of the school and using their powers for good instead of evil. I think Harry is going to be part of the solution for that. The DA might even be a part of it. As someone else has already pointed out, there is already a representation of the other three Houses in the DA; now all we need is some Slytherins to join ranks and the Sorting Hat will have re-unified the school in the fight against Voldemort. This might happen as the war heats up and some of the Slytherins whose parents aren't DE's get scared and want to join the resistance. After all, Voldemort is obviously not above killing purebloods. Look at Sirius' little brother. I think the Slytherins have just as much reason to be frightened as anyone else, and after all, their Head of House is already a member of the Order. I think Snape was placed in that position by Dumbledore for a very important reason. He has a unique perspective of the Slytherin students. He can determine which of them might be future threats, and possibly handicap them as I think he is doing by coddling Draco, or find the ones who are redeemable, and nudge them in the right direction. Once Voldemort is vanquished, I believe this sort of threat rising out of Slytherin House will mostly be a moot point. There might still be dark wizards, but the conflict the Sorting Hat fears surrounding Salazar's Heir should be finally resolved at that point.

Elektra

[FawkesBox]

Hmm interesting points. I also caught the almost derogatory reference to Hufflepuff. I agree that the hat was speaking of the necessity of uniting all who would be united because we are sronger together than apart etc... The theory that there might one day be a unification of the four houses is also an interesting idea. I'll strike that to my maybe list for Book 7. It would be an interesting twist wouldn't it? Would all the students still live seperately or would they build new dorms?

[Juno]

I think it may be possible that Hogwarts gives up the houses at the end of book 7. They are pretty nice, but I think they have shown that they are not very helpful when there is some sort of a crises. Maybe Dumbledore will finally get rid of them and unite the stundents.

[Sw33TLiLBuMbL3B]

Originally posted by Juno (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=399103#post399103))
I think it may be possible that Hogwarts gives up the houses at the end of book 7. They are pretty nice, but I think they have shown that they are not very helpful when there is some sort of a crises. Maybe Dumbledore will finally get rid of them and unite the stundents.



well I don't think Hogwarts will give up the houses... because what will happen to Quidditch?.. ::SNIFF:: :'( but it is very possible for them to be united even if they still have 4 different houses

[FawkesBox]

They could have intramural or interscholastic Quidditch.

[Virtuousdream]

What I don't understand is why Hufflepuff's values have changed since book 4...

for Hufflepuff, hard workers were mostly of admission

and it's been like that since book 1, however with book 5....

said Hufflepuff 'I'll take the rest and treat them just the same'

What happened to the loyal and fairness traits mentioned in the other books?!

[Perdita]

Firstly, Elektra, those were two excellent posts.

Secondly, I don't understand what people are saying about Hufflepuff. How are the words of the Sorting Hat in OOTP negative towards Hufflepuff? When I read it, it made me think how great and generous Hufflepuff was. She has the true spirit of what a teacher should be. You teach your students to the best of your ability, regardless of how smart or cunning or brave they are. You teach them because they are here to learn. It is a very positive message to me.

The other three sound like they are quite arrogant to me. We saw how costly arrogance can be for a person at the end of OOTP. Hufflepuff did not display this arrogance and be discriminatory. Instead, she was generous and accepting of differences.

[Mutant for Hire]

I think it is quite possible at the end of book six or seven for the houses to be dissolved. The Sorting Hat made some observations wondering whether it was really the right thing to be dividing up the students. And then there is Hermione's observation in book five that Quidditch was actually generating hostile feelings between the four Houses. Hermione may have been tactless to denigrate Quidditch in front of Harry, Fred and George, but she's also got a good track record for being right.

[crazytaxi]

I have always thought the houses were a bad idea. After all, what do you think you're going to get if you put a whole bunch of like minded individuals together...polarity! Plus, what you are like at 11 is not how you become (at least I hope not!!). It's like putting juvenile offenders in jail, they just come out better criminals (btw I don't want to debate that throny issue!).

Nothing in the characteristics of Slytherin is necessarily bad. Sure, they are cunning, shrewd, ambitious and 'will use any meas to achieve an end', but if the end is good is that a bad thing? Well, yes I suppose it could be... ;)

I'm thinking that the sorting hat song foreshadows some of the events of this book. There is the constant animosity between Snape and the Marauders from school to the present. This indirectly leads to Sirius' death (although there are many factors involved in this). But when the houses work together (Snape and Harry) they do finally win because the Order turns up to save Harry.


In fact it is only Harry and Snape who (possibly) understand each other and who take any notice of the song (however unintentionally and unwillingly). The Slytherin students act very badly and the rest of the school continues to hate them and (many of them, e.g. Ron) STILL distruct Snape, even though they have no direct evidence.

I, for one, am not surprised that many SLytherins end up as DE's. Just watch any Quidditch match where EVERYBODY else cheers for the other team. It would make me feel very alienated and wanting to stick with the other Slytherins. So, even if I started out a relatively nice person I would end up with some very dubious friends.

In the end, is it a self-fulfilling prophesy? Everybody says that all the Slytherins will end up bad, so everybody hates them from the start, so the Slytherins say "**** you" and they become DE's because this is the only place where they belong....Hang on, doesn't this sound like Snape's story? He turns up at school, James hates him for being into the Dark Arts, he befriends the other Slytherins to protect him, he joins the DE's because that's where all his friends are. (Not fact, admittedly, but highly plausible theory IMHO)

Sorry, I'm getting quite emotional! The evils of the house system is actually the basis of a fic of mine and I think I may be empathising too much. :)

[lupinlove]

I don't think the hat meant to insult the Hufflepuffs at all, but it was the way it was worded. Some people could interpret it as a negative remark.

[Tomsk]

I don't think they will disband the houses: if the sorting hat has sung warnings before, why weren't the houses disbanded then?

It is probably because the houses come together in the end. If a bunch of Slytherins and Gryffingors can face to face with Voldemort, they'd all fight, wouldn't they? Except Malfoy....

[NeedAM!nT]

I think the Sorting Hat meant that Hufflepuffs accept everyone and are the nice, sort of peacemakers in the school.

It is kind of like the Marauders! Slytherin would be Snape - the outcast that no one likes. Gryffindor would be James and Sirius - the brave and courageous, yet not always right ones. Ravenclaw would be Lupin - the calm, quiet, and wise one. And Hufflepuff would be Wormtail - the follower.

Another thing....all the mascot could really eat each other. A Lion would eat a Raven, a Raven would be a badger (a dead one, or a small weak one, but i know ravens are known to eat bigger animals like them) and a Badger could eat a Snake. It's kind of like most worthy to least worthy, or best liked to least liked.

[Lestrange]

Originally posted by crazytaxi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=411122#post411122))
I, for one, am not surprised that many SLytherins end up as DE's. Just watch any Quidditch match where EVERYBODY else cheers for the other team. It would make me feel very alienated and wanting to stick with the other Slytherins. So, even if I started out a relatively nice person I would end up with some very dubious friends.


...Like Snape...? I know you said something diffeerent about him, but I thought that was (well, sort of) why he turned. All that influence from his friends that turned out to be Death Eaters (along with...the other situations...).

Anyway, if there is going to be any house unity with the Slytherins, it's gonna start with this kid:

There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them: a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching thr horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face...

I know that it's a jump, but I think that this kid is gonna be the first Slytherin to join the D.A. meetings, and that'll begin the road towards house unity. He's not like Malfoy and the others who think they're families are in with the Dark Lord, but don't know what real death and pain is. This kid knows, man.

I thought the referance to Hufflepuffs not belonging in any other house was...amusing, but they probably have the same values as Helga Hufflepuff, which are (don't really know exactly, seeing as we didn't get a lot of information): fair play, loyalty, friendship....etc.

...Will the kids want to follow what the Sorting Hat said? No. I doubt that people would care what a hat has to say on recent events. But I think that it's pretty much inevitable that they are going to have to follow what it says, whether they notice that it was a warning from a hat or not (most likely, they won't...). Oh well.

[Virtuousdream]

Hang on, that stringy slytherin kid sounds like Theodore Nott, he was also described as weedy. Same person? His dad seems to be a death eater.

[Lestrange]

Originally posted by Helhorns (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=411569#post411569))
Hang on, that stringy slytherin kid sounds like Theodore Nott, he was also described as weedy. Same person? His dad seems to be a death eater.


Oh poo. I thought I was having a revelation. :sigh:

Well, he's the only Slytherin who has seen death, and it was interrupted when they were asking everyone to raise hands, so it seemed important enough. It's strange you don't see him hang out with Draco's gang too much.

*Sigh* I suppose it'll be a younger, previously nameless character that Harry didn't see Sorted. Maybe he'll become friends with the person, and then later find out that they're in Slytherin....

[animagus1369]

Originally posted by Lestrange (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=411477#post411477))
<snip>
...Will the kids want to follow what the Sorting Hat said? No. I doubt that people would care what a hat has to say on recent events. But I think that it's pretty much inevitable that they are going to have to follow what it says, whether they notice that it was a warning from a hat or not (most likely, they won't...). Oh well.


I think you're right. And this is one reason I see a big three-way war between the Order/Hogwarts (because they're both associated with DD), the MoM, and Voldemort. There is no reason, the way things stand at present for anyone at Hogwarts to pull together any more than they already have. There needs to be a great big *something* to draw them together, and I think that some big threat (bigger than we've seen to date) is needed to make the drawing together actually happen.

[Jessica]

Psychologists have done experiments on the phenomenon of dividing people into groups. It turns out that no matter what the dividing line is (i.e. sorting people alphabetically, by eye color, race or just randomly) as soon as people are divided into groups each group becomes convinced of its own superiority.

This is true even if the groups are randomly divided and are TOLD that they are being divided at random. The effect is increased when the groups are allowed to compete against one another.

So I don't think that Fuchsia's idea would work, because the second the kids are divided the same phenomenon will occur.

A better way to fix the problem would be inter-house co-operation. Some sort of task that the houses have to join together to accomplish instead of inter-house competition like Quidditch.

Or, of course, banding together to make Umbridge's life a living h&ll. (They got three out of four on that one).

I'm still waiting for JKR to contradict her own prejudices and give us a decent Slytherin.

[FawkesBox]

There was a sort of scenario in which the whole school was meant to band together in GOF- the Triwizard Tournament- but it still managed to drive the school apart.

[Jessica]

That's true, if Crouch Jr hadn't put Harry's name in the whole school might have rallied around Cedric (even the Slytherins).

[Severely Snapped]

Originally posted by lanifiel (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=387623#post387623))
I reckon if they just destroyed the Slytherin house everything would be much better. Dumbledore has the Ministry where he wants it & his friends where he needs them. Now its time to strike back at the powers of evil and start to get rid of the children who will be the next wave of Death Eaters...


It's exactly this kind of thinking that the Sorting Hat was warning against. And I'm sick and tired of hearing that Slytherin house is full of nothing but Death Eaters' kids and Death-Eaters-to-be. Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle do not a House make.

I, too, think the Houses are a bad idea in general. They should all be abolished, and I think they will be--I think the Hat's song was foreshadowing of that. I also think Hermione's observation about Quiddich making things worse was very true, and Quiddich in the future will either be intramural or gone completely.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Severely Snapped (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=422678#post422678))
It's exactly this kind of thinking that the Sorting Hat was warning against. And I'm sick and tired of hearing that Slytherin house is full of nothing but Death Eaters' kids and Death-Eaters-to-be. Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle do not a House make.

Don't forget Nott...

I, too, think the Houses are a bad idea in general. They should all be abolished, and I think they will be--I think the Hat's song was foreshadowing of that. I also think Hermione's observation about Quiddich making things worse was very true, and Quiddich in the future will either be intramural or gone completely.

I would love to see a Durmstrang/Hogwarts Quidditch match.

But on the whole, yes, dissolve the Houses. Of course knowing the perversity of the housing arrangments, that could end up mixing Malfoy and his cronies with Harry and Ron. Watch the fireworks when that happens.

[Moonstone]

Of course knowing the perversity of the housing arrangments, that could end up mixing Malfoy and his cronies with Harry and Ron.

That would lead to all of them sleeping with one eye open! :p

[DaN+EmMa]

i think it was telling everyone to stick together and believe in each other. like they need to believe in harry and stuff because he was telling the truth. and they shouldnt fight and stuff. just be friends. i think the DA really helped!
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[Mutant for Hire]

Thinking about the issue, I'm not totally certain that the Houses need to be dissolved. There is too much tradition there, and for that matter, it would require a total rehandling of housing and class assignments.

The simpler thing to do is just to eliminate the House Cup and the Quidditch Cup. Those are the only two places the Houses compete. If there are no points to be won or lost, that gives less incentive to show off or try to make the other Houses look bad. The Slytherin abuse of the system in book five showed how bad it could get.

As for the Quidditch Cup, as others have observed, an inter-scholastic Quidditch league would be just the ticket. To have a Hogwarts team composed of the best of all four Houses. Something that the school as a whole could rally behind.

It would be a nice counterpoint to books one and book four. In book four we are introduced to an inter-House Quidditch league and in book four we have an inter-scholasticl competition. Having an inter-scholastic Quidditch league is the perfect synthesis of the two. :)

[Elektra]

As for the Quidditch Cup, as others have observed, an inter-scholastic Quidditch league would be just the ticket. To have a Hogwarts team composed of the best of all four Houses. Something that the school as a whole could rally behind.


The only drawback to this would be that far fewer students would get to play if there was only one Hogwarts Quidditch team, and I don't think that would be fair, either. Besides, I don't think fostering more inter-school rivalry is necessarily the answer, either. I think they should make Quidditch more of an intermural sport; there could still be four teams, and the kids could still compete against each other within the school, but the teams would no longer be associated with the Houses. Everyone who wants to play could sign up, and if there are too many players they could hold tryouts. Those who make it onto the short list then have their names placed in a hat according to position, and are assigned to a team by random drawing. At the end of each year, each team votes who will be the next team Captain, and the following year the Captain draws out the names of their new teammates and judges the tryouts with the other Captains. This would create a fairly even distribution of the Houses on the different teams, the rivalries would be eliminated without creating powerful new ones, and the kids could still play Quidditch.

And speaking of Quidditch rivalry, did anyone notice the Tornados references in OotP? Ron accuses Cho of being a fair-weather fan when he sees her wearing a Tornados badge, and she snaps back that she's always been a fan. Then, the Quibbler publishes a story about the Tornados being some sort of subversive plot for world domination. Now, I realize the Quibbler isn't supposed to be taken seriously...or is it? It seems as though some of its stories might turn out to be plausible facts, and I wonder if the Tornados reference is one of them. It makes you wonder about the future of Quidditch outside of Hogwarts, as well.

I think eliminating the House Cup competition is an excellent idea, too. The point system is probably a good way to maintain discipline in the school, but it does have a very big drawback with all the unhealthy competition it causes between the Houses. Certainly there's a better way to do it, I'm just not sure what it is. Really, the Sorting Hat's advice could be heeded by the students without breaking up centuries-old Hogwarts traditions; the kids really need more a change of attitude than the school needs a change of tradition.

Elektra

[Mad I]

I don't think that the houses should be or will be abolished because of the tradition behind it, the uses the house system has in organizing the children quickly, the point system helps with behavior, ect. I also don't think that Quidditch will be ditched either, although I would like to see a Hogwarts/Durmstrang match.

[Sirius_Black_711]

Hello im new

[invisablethestral]

Hello Sirius_Black_711. Welcome to the forums.

There is an introductions thread in Hogwarts Express: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=12543

On thread:

The houses can remain, but their characteristics over time can be abolished by variable student dispersing by the Sorting Hat. It may well of started to do so, given its expressed views, as Weatherby has said. I would say this is pretty likely, but also the Hat felt that the students should be told by a rather unusual but intellectual source to inprove the inter-relations of all houses. We saw some of that with Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Gryffindor, particularly in the DA where they all came together. All we need is a rebelious Slytherin to become friends with people in the other houses. It's something JKR may well work on over the last two books as their is still room for new characters, if not major ones.

[u_gotta_luv_me!!!!]

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[Doggy]

Hope this hasn't been discussed before, if it has been, forgive me *begs on bare knees*

This about houses. A lot of times when I've been on the forums and read the posts, people have written something like "I don't want to be prejudiced against Slytherin's, but..." or "not to think bad about Hufflepuffs but...".

How "prejudiced" can you be with the houses? Can you automatically say "oh, she/he is a Hufflepuff, so he/she has to be really nice"? Or if you speak bad of one Ravenclaw you automatically speak bad of the whole house?

It's very different from judging people by their nationailties, but when you are in a certain house you do posess different qualities that form your personality. I'm not saying that all Slytherins are jerks, but instead how far can you trust the idea that all Gryffindors are strong, brave chivelrous people, Ravenclaws have IQs over 150, Hufflepuffs stick to people to the bitter end and Slytherins walk around scheming?

Especially since the Sorting Hat song OotP when it said that the Hufflepuffs were the left-overs, that fir in the other houses. That got me thinking; how loyal does a Hufflepuff have to be?

[RedCape]

Are you wondering how strongly each person in a certain house has to possess the favored characteristics?

I think that the characteristic (brave, loyal, and so on) also has to be important to the student. It is important to Hermoine to study hard and get good grades, but it is not the most important thing to her.

Hermoine is not timid and as a first year student reached out to help a fellow student on the train. Others may have been making fun of Neville, so it was brave of Hermoine to help him instead of laugh at him. It was brave of her to go around the train asking all the students including the older students if they had seen a toad. This 'world' is new to her, but she didn't hesitate (that we know) to help.

It is clear that Hermoine enjoys being clever and doesn't hide it. As we know, the sorting hat had thought of putting her in Ravenclaw. Hermoine, being Hermoine, had researched Hogwarts and knew all about the four houses. SHE thought Gryffindor was the best and that's where the hat put her.

The traits admired most by Godric Gryffindor and displayed most by those in Gryffindor house, were also the ones the most important to Hermoine.

I guess I'm saying the students don't have to be poster children for the house defining characteristic (see Neville), but do have to feel that that characteristic is the most important thing to have/be.

[bellatrix669]

I agree. Neville may not seem exceptionally brave, but he obviously values it. Look at his virtual worship of the trio in the first 2 books. It's probably due to his grandmother, who has told him stories of how great his parents were in the fight against Voldemort, that he does treasure it. The same can be said for Wormtail. He obviously didn't have as much bravery as the Marauders, but he sure wanted to be brave and envied that trait in others. Draco & co. value cunning and proficiency in the Dark Arts because it's what their parents taught them to value.

[Padfoot127]

Insulting a house is like insulting your family, I guess, because they're sorta insulting you too. Maybe Hufflepuffs really are just the left overs, that had no real extraordinary talent besides being loyal, but that doesn't mean they're not good people. I don't know what I'm getting at so ignore me.

[Evilrabbit]

Let me just sum up Hufflepuffs by saying that they work hard and treat everybody fairly, sometimes but not always to compensate for their lack of intelligence/bravery/power-wanting. I think that hufflepuffs possess some very admirable qualities and should not be considered the leftover house.

Back on topic, I think uniting the houses is going to be difficult considering that the "leaders" of the Slytherin house (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott) really do approve of Voldy's practises. If they just hated the other three houses for other reasons and were opposed to Voldy coming back, then I'd say there was no doubt Slytherin would join the other houses to defeat Voldy. But the fact is that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott's fathers are death eaters and they do support their fathers actions and it's only a matter of time untill their fathers break out of Azkaban. And even those Slytherins whose families do not support Voldemort may think he has the right idea. Slytherins will do anything to achieve their end, which does not automatically mean they are evil, but it does mean they might do something potentially harmful if it'll get them what they want. However, we can only hope that the "good" Slytherins who are opposed to the Dark Lord will rise up above the "evil" ones and join the other three houses like the sorting hat advises.

I agree that there are drawbacks to the House system, but in my opinion, there are also lots of benefits. For one, students with similar personalities can relate more to each others problems and can help each other out. I'm not against diversity or anything but I think there comes a time when one does have to be around people who feel the same way about things. I go to an academic school and I feel we all understand each other much better than at a normal school, sort of like one big Ravenclaw house. It also provides a sense of pride to be in a certain house. If someone's down, they can climb to the top of the Astronomy tower and shout "I AM A HUFFLEPUFF" or something. Yes, if taken too far, it can cause arrogance, but I think preventing low self esteem in people like Neville is much more important than preventing arrogance in people like Malfoy. If the house system were abolished, everyone would be "just another Hogwarts student"

As much I do like the house system, I do have to say that there is too much importance placed on houses. I think the best solution would be too retain the houses, but place less importance on them, that is, convince everyone that they should be more openminded and see people for who they truly are, not the house they're in. You can't change the way the students work together just by changing school policy, it's far more important to change the students mentality regarding that school policy. I think I've rambled enough so I'll stop now.

[Siriusly]

I think that the houses should stay- how would a school organize 1000 students without dormitories? A common room wouldn't work for that many people and the school would end up divided anyway but I think it would be worse. It may seperate by year or interests and the exclusioin factor would increase. If they want to increase house cooperation then they need to emphasize the clubs more. Eliminate house quidditch teams and organize them some other way. Also instead of having classes with only your house or with one other house, mix the students up. I know this is a poor comparison but I went to summer camp as a kid and we bunked with our age/sex group but had assigned dinner tables that mixed all ages and sexes, and the activities were mostly mixed with only a once a week hike with the rest of our bunk. It allows for much more intermixing of people. And then for the end of summer carnival/olympic events the counselors seperated us into teams to compete against each other, but we were mixed again. Quidditch and all school games could be seperated like that, every year each student is assigned to a 1 of 4 teams or even 1 of 6 teams, and then any activities a student joined were for that team.


The thing is, I think the sorting hat was trying to stress that everyone could make their own choices, even the sorting hat takes into consideration what the person wants when putting them into a house. Malfoy may belong in Slytherin but he wanted to be there too. He chooses to swoop around like a bad a** while other Slytherins do not.

In the end, whether the houses are disbanded or not, I think many of the Slytherins will end up making choices different from their DE parents.

[circewhitetigeress]

hey-this topic is interesting.....me like much.. i think the houses should stay..but all the students (w/teacher iniciation) need to band together..... on and BTW..CrazyTaxi.i like ur siggy very much!!!

[Liselle]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed but I think that its interesting that Wormtail was the first (as far as we know) death eater from a house that wasn't slytherin (there isn't a a wizard that was bad that didn't come from slytherin.....I tihnk that there's a quote to that affect in the Philosophers stone)

which makes me wonder if the sorting hat hasn't been so clever and has made mistakes

Liselle

[Sabine]

It's exactly this kind of thinking that the Sorting Hat was warning against. And I'm sick and tired of hearing that Slytherin house is full of nothing but Death Eaters' kids and Death-Eaters-to-be. Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle do not a House make.

Thanks for saying this already, its exactly the way I feel about it!!!

I, too, think the Houses are a bad idea in general. They should all be abolished, and I think they will be--I think the Hat's song was foreshadowing of that.

In the last days I more and more tend to believe that Hogwarts, like we know it, will be "destroyed".

I also think Hermione's observation about Quiddich making things worse was very true, and Quiddich in the future will either be intramural or gone completely.

Well, maybe some "conditions" should be changed. But I don't think it will/should go completely.

It would be a nice counterpoint to books one and book four. In book four we are introduced to an inter-House Quidditch league and in book four we have an inter-scholasticl competition. Having an inter-scholastic Quidditch league is the perfect synthesis of the two. :)

That seems like a real good idea :)

This about houses. A lot of times when I've been on the forums and read the posts, people have written something like "I don't want to be prejudiced against Slytherin's, but..." or "not to think bad about Hufflepuffs but...".

How "prejudiced" can you be with the houses? Can you automatically say "oh, she/he is a Hufflepuff, so he/she has to be really nice"? Or if you speak bad of one Ravenclaw you automatically speak bad of the whole house?

It's very different from judging people by their nationailties, but when you are in a certain house you do posess different qualities that form your personality. I'm not saying that all Slytherins are jerks, but instead how far can you trust the idea that all Gryffindors are strong, brave chivelrous people, Ravenclaws have IQs over 150, Hufflepuffs stick to people to the bitter end and Slytherins walk around scheming?

Especially since the Sorting Hat song OotP when it said that the Hufflepuffs were the left-overs, that fir in the other houses. That got me thinking; how loyal does a Hufflepuff have to be?

I don't think Hufflepuff are "leftovers", on the contrary.

To me it seems that the sorting hat is somehow "meassuring" the skill/talents/qualities of the kids to sort. That which show above-average "Gryffindor-qualities" go to Gryffindor a.s.o.

The Hufflepuffs are the kids with the best balanced qualities/skills/talents. There is no quality "overruling" the others.

I don't know about us, but I certainly got the feeling that the wizzarding world is very much prejudiced when it comes to the houses.

Only due to that what Harry heard from Hagrid and Ron he didn't want to go to Slytherin. Someone mentioned at the sorting, that if been sorted in Hufflepuff he rather go home again.

It isn't the house that makes good or bad witches or wizzards. Its peoples own choices. I am deeply convinced that one could very well go to Slytherin and not become "bad all over".

More dangerous than the houses themselves is the attitude that people take for or against this houses.

Once your sorted into Slytherin you become autmatically a jerk, can't be trusted a.s.o? Once your in Hufflepuff .. then - well - then you are a Hufflepuff ... boring?

Maybe there would be a chance if they closed down the common roomes.

I would like to see Hogwarts with a whole new "outfit", but I don't think it can be done, because I suspect the founders did something to prevent someone from "messing things up". They were certain they did the best.

But - as time seems to show - this wasn't the best.

As I said before: It isn't the house that makes one bad or good. The school is the same, the teachers are, the homework is. Its only "the social life" that somehow "melts" together the members of the houses. The Common room shared ONLY by members of this very house, kept secret to other houses. And - of course the Quidditch-pitch...

The Common rooms could be closed down, so that there could be one Common-room for all. Certainly one could never avoid that some people group together, but I think it should be avoided that prejudice is nourished in the way it is. And I don't think there is a chance that this will "vanish" without "help".

Think about Ron, saying more than just once in OotP that there is no way they would become friends with Slytherins.

Oh -and for that ... I do not believe that the number of pupils is really 1000. Not even when JKR gave this number. I think she didn't think that over properly before giving out that number.

Sabine

[Morgan LeFay]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed but I think that its interesting that Wormtail was the first (as far as we know) death eater from a house that wasn't slytherin (there isn't a a wizard that was bad that didn't come from slytherin.....I tihnk that there's a quote to that affect in the Philosophers stone)

which makes me wonder if the sorting hat hasn't been so clever and has made mistakes

Liselle

it was Hagrid who said that in PS, but he was wrong, I think he even knew that. Wasn't Sirius in Azkaban that days? Hagrid knew about it, but Sirius was in Gryffindor. So not every one DE was in Slytherin. Hagrid could just say that because it was slytherin, who made him expelled. I think it's impossible that all DE was Slytherins. And why was Wormtail in Gryffindor? He didn't seem to be brave, did he? He still isn't very brave in fact.

I think all those people-propably-in-wrong-houses should made us think about that, what we don't see in first place. Some people are just different from the people we think they are.

[Puffskein]

I think there is a problem with the house system in that it could stop people getting a variety of influences so they become set in their ways. I imagine Sirius, for example, was put in Gryffindor when the hat noticed that he was brave enough to stand up to his family's arrogance, and there he was able to associate with Muggleborns and a werewolf and turned against snobbery even more. On the other hand, people like Regulus and Draco who have less independent minds were put in Slytherin and surrounded by pureblood snobs, so they didn't have the incentive to see the other view. However, Slytherin is the only house whose members have been portrayed as being all the same, so that might not be so much of a problem for the other houses.

[BuddyBoy]

*Sigh* I suppose it'll be a younger, previously nameless character that Harry didn't see Sorted. Maybe he'll become friends with the person, and then later find out that they're in Slytherin....


*hem, hem*

..... Mark Evans...

:elaugh:

[Eleanor12]

Firstly, Elektra, those were two excellent posts.

Secondly, I don't understand what people are saying about Hufflepuff. How are the words of the Sorting Hat in OOTP negative towards Hufflepuff? When I read it, it made me think how great and generous Hufflepuff was. She has the true spirit of what a teacher should be. You teach your students to the best of your ability, regardless of how smart or cunning or brave they are. You teach them because they are here to learn. It is a very positive message to me.

The other three sound like they are quite arrogant to me. We saw how costly arrogance can be for a person at the end of OOTP. Hufflepuff did not display this arrogance and be discriminatory. Instead, she was generous and accepting of differences.

I agree that the sorting hat did not say anything bad about Hufflepuff the person. However, I must admit that I might, were I in Hufflepuff, feel a bit bad about about what the sorting hat said. After all, it suggests that the students in Hufflepuff are not necessarily very smart, cunning, or brave. It could be interpreted, at least, to be saying that Hufflepuffs are in no way exceptional. Yes, it is great and generous that Hufflepuff would teach these, but it is not great for these students to have to even wonder whether they are not special. the founder of their house is to be admired and a person with whom Hufflepuffs can be proud to be associated, but there still is doubt placed in their minds of their own worth.

[Eleanor12]

I don't think Hufflepuff are "leftovers", on the contrary.

To me it seems that the sorting hat is somehow "meassuring" the skill/talents/qualities of the kids to sort. That which show above-average "Gryffindor-qualities" go to Gryffindor a.s.o.

The Hufflepuffs are the kids with the best balanced qualities/skills/talents. There is no quality "overruling" the others.

I
Sabine

I like that thought.

[Eleanor12]

Are you wondering how strongly each person in a certain house has to possess the favored characteristics?

I think that the characteristic (brave, loyal, and so on) also has to be important to the student. It is important to Hermoine to study hard and get good grades, but it is not the most important thing to her.

Hermoine is not timid and as a first year student reached out to help a fellow student on the train. Others may have been making fun of Neville, so it was brave of Hermoine to help him instead of laugh at him. It was brave of her to go around the train asking all the students including the older students if they had seen a toad. This 'world' is new to her, but she didn't hesitate (that we know) to help.

It is clear that Hermoine enjoys being clever and doesn't hide it. As we know, the sorting hat had thought of putting her in Ravenclaw. Hermoine, being Hermoine, had researched Hogwarts and knew all about the four houses. SHE thought Gryffindor was the best and that's where the hat put her.

The traits admired most by Godric Gryffindor and displayed most by those in Gryffindor house, were also the ones the most important to Hermoine.

I guess I'm saying the students don't have to be poster children for the house defining characteristic (see Neville), but do have to feel that that characteristic is the most important thing to have/be.


Just out of curiousity, where in the books does it say that the sorting hat considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw?

[Eleanor12]

I think the Sorting Hat meant that Hufflepuffs accept everyone and are the nice, sort of peacemakers in the school.

It is kind of like the Marauders! Slytherin would be Snape - the outcast that no one likes. Gryffindor would be James and Sirius - the brave and courageous, yet not always right ones. Ravenclaw would be Lupin - the calm, quiet, and wise one. And Hufflepuff would be Wormtail - the follower.

Another thing....all the mascot could really eat each other. A Lion would eat a Raven, a Raven would be a badger (a dead one, or a small weak one, but i know ravens are known to eat bigger animals like them) and a Badger could eat a Snake. It's kind of like most worthy to least worthy, or best liked to least liked.


That's not fair to Hufflepuff. Especially making Wormtail Hufflepuff. Wasn't Hufflepuff being brave and nonconformist by accepting those who didn't fit into the other houses. Aren't the Hufflepuffs proud to be Hufflepuffs despite it all? What I'm saying is, they're not sitting around wishing they were Gryffindors or following all the other houses. Maybe they're more wise than we like to say. I wouldn't call them followers, that's all.

I've always sort of had a soft spot for Hufflepuff. I've taken all those quizzes and they've all put me in Ravenclaw... but I just feel a kinship with Hufflepuff.

[chop]

Just out of curiousity, where in the books does it say that the sorting hat considered putting Hermione in Ravenclaw?

OotP Chapter 19 The Lion and the Serpent. Some Terry Boot asks Hermione "you can do a Protean Charm?"
Quote from the book (UK Edition):

'Yes,' said Hermione.
'But that's… that's NEWT standard, that is,' he said weakly.
'Oh,' said Hermione, trying to look modest. 'Oh… well… yes, I suppose it is.'
'How come you're not in Ravenclaw?' he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. 'With brains like yours?'
'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly, 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end. So, does that mean we're using the Galleons?'

So it is Hermione herself stating this.

[Eleanor12]

OotP Chapter 19 The Lion and the Serpent. Some Terry Boot asks Hermione "you can do a Protean Charm?"
Quote from the book (UK Edition):

'Yes,' said Hermione.
'But that's… that's NEWT standard, that is,' he said weakly.
'Oh,' said Hermione, trying to look modest. 'Oh… well… yes, I suppose it is.'
'How come you're not in Ravenclaw?' he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. 'With brains like yours?'
'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly, 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end. So, does that mean we're using the Galleons?'

So it is Hermione herself stating this.


Okay thank you. I do not currently have access to that book, so... I do appreciate it.

[MadEye2003]

I strongly agree with Siriusly. How would you fit 1000 students in 1 common room?

[chop]

I strongly agree with Siriusly. How would you fit 1000 students in 1 common room?
We have seen about 10 students (5 boys, 5 girls) per house per year. That would account for 280 students for seven years if all of them continue with NEWT level courses. Considering some years with more students I think a maximum of 400 / 500 should be considered

[Eleanor12]

We have seen about 10 students (5 boys, 5 girls) per house per year. That would account for 280 students for seven years if all of them continue with NEWT level courses. Considering some years with more students I think a maximum of 400 / 500 should be considered


do we know that there are the same number per house, though?

[chop]

do we know that there are the same number per house, though?
The sorting hat song said
"Though / must fulfil my duty
And must quarter every year"

So it seems they have the same number.

[Eleanor12]

The sorting hat song said
"Though / must fulfil my duty
And must quarter every year"

So it seems they have the same number.

Oh thank you. I feel smart. I appreciate it.

[chop]

Oh thank you. I feel smart. I appreciate it.

You're wellcome.
What worries me about this thread is more what can happen to start a path towards unity between houses, because I can't imagine how to overcome the bad realtion between Slytherin and the rest of the houses we have seen developing through the books.

We have to take into consideration:
1) Slytherin left Hogwarts after a big row with Gryffindor.
2) Almost all DEs come from Slytherin.
3) Slytherin only accept pure bloods.
4) All Slytherins are quite fond of abusing mudbloods, we haven't seen a single Slytherin student complaining about Draco attitude against mudbloods and they used "Pure Blood" as password to get to their house rooms.
5) All other houses accept mudbloods and make no problem of blood origins.
6) Where are the children of the DE sent to Azkaban (did Rookwood, the Lestranges or any of the others have children? In that case where are they?)

May the fact of a prominent Slytherin falling for a mudblood the trigger for a change or it's just too easy?

[Liselle]

I have also been thinking about the song and about how Slytherin and Gryffindor houses used to get along splendidly. I am wondering if Rowling might introduce a new character in book 6, from Slytherin house? She introduced Luna in this book and Luna is fleshed out pretty well. She’s by no means a major character but she is important. She is mysterious and we know that Rowling will follow up on her character in the future.

Since Rowling was successful with Luna, could she also be successful with introducing a new character from Slytherin and Hufflepuff houses?

I’m thinking that it’s more plausible to introduce a new Slytherin character as opposed to using one that is pre-established because I can’t think of any Slytherin character that can realistically turn good and join the Trio.
I was suprised that Luna was introduced and became such a major player in the book....I think that the amount of new characters that were introduced in Phoenix maybe was a bit of a mistake, it opened a whole lot of new doors (ok maybe a good thing) but there are so many loose ends now than ever before. If anyone from Slytherin is to join with the trio it would have to be Malfoy I think although as someone has pointed out before, every hero needs an antagonist and Malfoy is certainly that.

The sorting hat song is definitely a source of welcome debate....as we heard from NHN the sorting hat has given advice before, was it followed???? I'm not sure if just getting rid of slytherin would do the trick, its a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face and would just end up adding more problems......it looks like Gryffindor (from their attitudes anyway) would be the next big bastian of snobbery.

don't even think of asking me for a solution!!! I need to ponder it a little more!

Liselle

[Sirius83]

Okay, this one is probably going out on a limb, but I found this most interesting. In the Department of Mysteries, the group split off and we had the formation of a "new trio" of sorts, namely Harry, Hermione and Neville. Now, consider the following:

Harry, as we all know, was almost sorted into Slytherin house when he arrived at Hogwarts. He has also shown traits that belong to Slytherin.

Hermione, as was revealed in OotP, was almost sorted into Ravenclaw house. This was no surprise, she has long shown Ravenclaw traits.

Neville, okay now here is where the guesswork starts. Neville is strong in Herbology. Professor Sprout, who teaches Herbology, is the head of Hufflepuff house. Now here is where it gets interesting. If we look back at chapter 7 of PS/SS, "The Sorting Hat", we learn that the sorting hat had a hard time placing Neville.
When Neville Longbottom, the boy who kept losing his toad, was called, he fell over on his way to the stool. The hat took a long time to decide with Neville. When it finally shouted "GRYFFINDOR", Neville ran off still wearing it, and had to jog back amid gales of laughter to give it to "MacDougal, Morag".
Emphasis mine. Why did it take so long with Neville? Yes, he definately shows Gryffindor traits, but he's not 100% Gryffindor it seems. He doesn't have the traits to put him into Slytherin or Ravenclaw, so that leaves Hufflepuff, who don't seem to have any distinctive traits that have yet been revealed.

Was the Sorting Hat torn between placing Neville in Gryffindor or in Hufflepuff, much as it had been with Harry and Slytherin, and Hermione and Ravenclaw?

In OotP, the Sorting Hat's song tells us that the four houses (Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff and Slytherin) have to be united. In the "new trio" formed at the Department of Mysteries between Harry, Hermione and Neville, do we in fact have representatives of all four houses?

I believe that in book 6 we will find out that Neville was indeed almost placed into Hufflepuff. But what role does it play by having these three represent all the houses?


Thinking about this new development,
Sirius83

[sone]

Good theory, that may explain exactly why Harry was dreaming about Neville dancing with Professor Sprout in his dream in the DA room. I remember somewhere in OoTP where it said something about Neville's improvement in DADA was so beyond recognition, it was almost unnerving.

[Dedalus]

I'm not sure. Why would the House have used them as experiment subjects, in particular?

It's just that they could have been in other Houses ... could ... but weren't. They are all Gryffindors, through and through. In a certain light they might look like the belong in another House, but it's bravery that comes to each one of their aids, in desperate circumstances. That's what defines a House ... Ravenclaw, for instance, isn't just for clever people but for people who use cleverness as weapons and as defence, and people who themselves pride cleverness over all else. That isn't Hermione! Hermione will do stupid but brave things, sacrificing her cleverness for sheer courage.

So I think they do all belong in Gryffindor and not another House. I don't think they represent a different House, because then why Gryffindor? And why those characters?

I'm also not sure that the Hat does want to abolish the idea of Houses and that they should literally "unite" or anything like that, but wants House pride to be not taken so seriously. I think he was despairing rather than seriously meaning that it's pointless, and making the point that they're all just people and all should get along and stand together against greater forces, rather than bicker between themselves. Houses work fine in Hogwarts and in other schools, so I don't think we're going to see them gotten rid of or that J.K. Rowling is saying that they're a bad idea, since it's not them that's the problem but the way the students fight each other when there are more important things to worry about.

[Sirius83]

I agree to some extent Dadalus, about the hat wanting the houses but not the prid to be taken too seriously. But the thing is that JKR has specifically shown us that both Harry and Hermione were almost placed in different houses, and that Neville took long to sort. Neville doesn't hold Slytherin or Ravenclaw characteristics, so the only other house he could have been placed into was Hufflepuff. In OotP, JKR had the hat talk about unity and then she put Harry, Hermione and Neville on their own in action. Too many coincidences for my liking.

[dobby_rocks]

I have to agree with you

“It’s just that they could have been in other Houses ... could ... but weren't.”

Despite the house having considered putting Harry in Slythiren or Hermoine in Ravenclaw, even had the hat thought of putting Neville in Hufflepuff but it didn’t, because the qualities for Gryffindor shined more brightly in them. Everyone probably has a few traits from each house, but the one that stands out the most is where they are put.

I think the hat just all students to be untied despite what house they are in, as the founders of Hogwarts intended it be when they founded the school

[Dedalus]

Even if Neville could have been considered for Hufflepuff, this bunch wouldn't have been the first lot of students who might have been considered elsewhere. Since the beginning of Hogwarts, I bet most Sortings weren't direct decisions and most people could have been considered for more than one House. But the Houses still stand and they still work, and everyone is rightly Sorted. Basically, I'm pretty sure that Harry, Hermione and (possibly) Neville wouldn't be the only ones who could say "the Hat almost chose me for ...". So that's why I can't see them being symbols of anything, especially not the Houses uniting. It must have always been that way because people have always been complicated.

[Sirius83]

Yeah, I understand what you'r saying,b ut then why did JKR choose to do this? She could have just ended it with Harry's sorting, but she dragged it on into other books, then included Hermione in the mix, there are clues to toss Neville in there, and then she goes and puts those 3 together at the DoM instead of the usual Harry, Ron, Hermione.

It's not a matter of these are or are not the first students to nearly get sorted into different houses to what theya re in, but rather why JKR chose to expose this in these particaular characters and place them together in action away from the others, and in fact breaking the usual trio to do it.

It's that JKR chose to show us this, and these things aren't written in for no reason. There has to be a purpose to JKR putting these things in the books, so the question is why? If it's nothing necessary, then why was it written into the book?

[Prof.Aze]

Good theory there Sirius...

All i can say is that JK Rowling may be telling us in book 5 that in order to defeat the dark side, the wizarding community must stand up and fight as one... She may be possible telling us that to fight the dark side the order can't do it alone neither the four founders of the school can do it alone... It must be everyone from the wizarding world...

JKR may be emphasizing the value of UNITY... With unity they may be winning the battle right handedly...

[Perdita]

Hi Liselle,

you posted:
I think that the amount of new characters that were introduced in Phoenix maybe was a bit of a mistake, it opened a whole lot of new doors (ok maybe a good thing) but there are so many loose ends now than ever before. If anyone from Slytherin is to join with the trio it would have to be Malfoy I think although as someone has pointed out before, every hero needs an antagonist and Malfoy is certainly that.

You're right, introducing new characters is quite risky because you might end up with a mery mysterious and intriguing character, but at the same time, a lot of questions that need to be answered.

As for the other Slytherin, I went back to PS/SS to see if there were any Slytherin students who have yet to be named as a child of a DE, and guess who it was?

MORAG MCDOUGAL! (see Sirius83's first post above)

He was named, and placed in a house, but we have yet to hear from him again. Why name and character and specify which House he's in if he is not to play an important role in the story at a later date? Look at Terry Boot, Hanna Abbot and Justin Finch-Fletchly. They were all named and given a House and in book five, we learn of their significance to the story because they've become members of the DA. :D

Sirius83,

That is another possibility. I mean, even if all the students in the various Houses unite, you'd still need to have a small number to form the team that goes on the most dangerous missions to fight LV. What happened in the DOM is a prime example. You have 6 students entering the fray, but the battle revolves around 3 in particular.

I think this is a very good possibility.

[Weatherby]

I think Dedalus has a good point. Hermione does pride bravery over intelligence. That trait wins out in the end.
I think the same goes for Neville. I think that because it's harder for him actually makes him a truer Gryffindor.

But I think there is something to this theory of Sirius83's. Rowling does these things for a reason.

I've mentioned this before that house may have deliberately mixed some of the students into different houses because it's not good to divide them like this. They shouldn't be sorted at all perhaps.
It could be there wasn't a problem with the different houses before. Systems may work when they are instated but people and the world change so the systems have to change with them.
I think the reason the house does work the way it does is because they all have different qualities. If they really were only brave, smart, cunning, etc. then it would be dreadful to have them together. People need to bounce different ideas onto each other.

If the house did this then it may not just be Hermione, Harry and Neville but these students in the DA or others.
But this would mean the hat was reading the signs much earlier on than expected. Was Harry coming to the school the catalyst?
That's the part that confuses me too. Why them? Was it because of Voldemort? This would include Neville but Hermione?

[LadyBlack101]

I was thinking the other day about the 4 Hogwarts Houses. And how many readers (like myself) like the Gryffindor house better. But should we? The character you need to fit in all the Houses are basically good, but are they necessary? It seems to me that Hufflepuff was the one who had it all right. I mean Godric Gryffindor, Rowena Ravenclaw, and Salazar Slytherin all excluded people who weren't like them. This action is the same bigotry that Wizards in the Harry Potter universe have against muggleborns, werewolfs... I mean basically Gryffindor only taught students who were brave, Ravenclaw stuck to the smart students, and Slytherin wanted cunning people and pure-bloods... But Hufflepuff was the only one who would take anybody. Now how could the most open-minded of them all, Helga Hufflepuff, how could her house be considered to be a bunch of 'duffers'?:grumble:

[Steffie01]

I have always thought that everyone might be a bit stupid to discount Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw and i think that the prejudice by everyone(even teachers) against Slytherin might cause trouble later on.

[Hood Teacher]

Ok I like the Gryffindor House casue well we know the most about them also I think that everyone has some of the qualities that the founders had for the school like Hermione she is really smart but she isn't in Ravenclaw she choose Gryffindor also Harry could have been a Slytherin and Harry isn't pure blood so we can't pass judgement to those who get puicked just look at Luna in Ravenclaw? the way she acts if what you're saying is right than she would be in either Gryffindor or Hufflepuff.

[Rose Hunter]

I like Slytherin house because I don't like the idea of being constrained by someone else's ideals or moral values.

Slytherin certainly wouldn't stop me for taking whatever measures I would deem necessary to put my house ahead of the others, but the other houses may object to my 'tactics'.

I would inevitably alienate all around me if I were to be placed in any other house besides Slytherin.

Oh. And I'd rather chew broken glass than end up in Gryffindor. No offense.

[FivePointSin]

I did a search about this, but all I found was a thread that has been dead since January. Ok, this is my theory.
In OotP the Sorting Hat's song heads a warning to the school for them to be united or they will fall. It is my belief that the Sorting Hat has put people in houses they should not have been in. And I believe that it has done this before. The Sorting Hat seems to know a lot for a weathered old hat, enough so to know that Voldemort was rising to power. Because of this he switched the houses to build unity against the Dark Lord. Here is my evidence.

James Potter-This sorting is correct. James upholds many of the Gryffindor standards.
Sirius Black-Slytherin. Sirius tells us that his whole blood line had been in Slytherin and that he was definitly a pure blood.
Remus Lupin-Ravenclaw. We learn in The Pensieve from OotP that Remus would ussually study while his friends joked around.
Peter Pettigrew-Hufflepuff. Peter is a standerd Hufflepuff, not necissarily smart and not good at a lot of things.

That was the first time it has done this. This is the second.

Harry Potter-Slytherin. "You could be great you know" Harry could have gone either way. The fact that he chose Gryffindor doesnt change the fact he could of gone to Slytherin(even though it was because of Voldys power in him)
Ron Weasly-Gryffindor. Ron is the most loyal person in all of the books. He always sticks with Harry even when they disagree. Ron is definitly a Gryffindor
Hermione Granger-Ravenclaw. This one is sort of obvious isn't it? Hermione always recieves high marks is "The smartest witch I've ever met."
Neville Longbottom-Hufflepuff. Neville is a lot like Peter. Clumsy bumbling around, and is also good at herbology, taught by none other than Prof. Sprout, the Hufflepuff House Leader.

So you see the switch has already happened. But for Voldemort to be defeated all four of our heroes must unite to defeat him....

What do you think?

[GrangerGal]

Is this different enough? I never know what to think and I guess that is why I am not a moderator! LOL!

Anyway I think it is an interesting theory... Could there be others in other houses that would be better suited as well? Could this "mixing" of the houses be revealed and if so are there some Slytherins that could become friends or allies to the Gryffindors. I think my main concern with the hat's warning is that the Slytherins do not seem to be friends with any other houses. There is inter-house dating, inter-house friendships and the other houses even cheer for one another at the quidditch matches (usually when they are rooting AGAINST Slytherin) This is a problem. History will repeat itself unless someone can find something redeemable about the Slytherin house and fast!

[the kryle]

the DA was a way for the houses to join togather and hopfully in year 6 the DA will be very popular, becuse people would want to defend them selves.

[Hippolyta Harad]

Ah, but there is no need to search for redeemable qualities amongst the Slytherins...they already have them in abundance. We just haven't had much chance to see this within the books.

Ambition...drive...determination...all useful and, considering life during wartime, darned handy to have around. Really, how much use is bravery or intelligence without drive? A person can be driven to accomplish goals that are not selfish.

These Slyth-y qualities, if turned against the enemy, could be decisive. Imagine a Slytherin who is all about realizing a goal: the defeat of Voldemort. A wizard or witch whose all-encompassing drive is to destroy the DEs, whose ambition is to stamp out the pureblood elitists. Think crusader. Think Joan of Arc. Get out of her way, she's on the warpath and won't stop until she's taken down--heaven help those who can't move, 'cause they might get trampled, but then 'you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.' Sure, in some lights this could certainly seem evil, but when the chips are down, might not be a bad type to have on 'our side'.

(Now, whether or not this type of kill-em-all-and-let-ghod-sort-em-out attitude is better than the pureblood-above-all, destroy-the-opposition DE philosophy, I am not going get into, though it could be a fun story to explore!)

I see that some posters have discussed the possibility of the abolishment of Slytherin to foster unity. I think that's an interesting idea. However, if the House system remains in place, I don't believe that Slytherin can or should be dismantled. I think it serves an important role. Again, without drive and determination and ambition, even the best traits can become useless. And against whom may the brave Gryffindors or fair-minded Hufflepuffs measure themselves, if not their Slytherin brethren? We need all four legs for a strong foundation.

I should think the House would be a perfect home for, say, great visionaries or charismatic leaders. Slytherin stands as part of the foundation of the school, offering a place for youngsters who might grow into accomplishing 'great things' even without being brilliant or brave or fair-handed. In some instances these 'great things' could be horrible; in other instances they could be valuable.

Sometimes a person who stands outside of accepted mores has the freedom to identify and pursue great goals. It's up to the individual to choose both the end and the means to reach it. Even a seemingly noble end (abolishing hunger, for example) could lead a person to choose a horrific means to achieve it (complete genocide of half the world population). As the wise wizard said, it's our choices that make the difference--and Slytherins have the freedom to make that choice, same as any other students.

If the school is truly going to unify to accomplish a goal, who better to further that goal than the most driven and determined students?

Personally I'm sorry we haven't seen many different facets of the Slytherins among the book characters. (Luckily we have Snape there as an exmaple of someone who does not fail to pursue his goal of aiding the Order, even though it puts him in great danger.)

Sorry for droning on and on!

[FivePointSin]

I should think the House would be a perfect home for, say, great visionaries or charismatic leaders. Slytherin stands as part of the foundation of the school, offering a place for youngsters who might grow into accomplishing 'great things' even without being brilliant or brave or fair-handed. In some instances these 'great things' could be horrible; in other instances they could be valuable.

never forget the words of Hagrid...."Their hasn't been a single witch or wizard that went bad who wasnt in Slytherin"

[Hippolyta Harad]

never forget the words of Hagrid...."Their hasn't been a single witch or wizard that went bad who wasnt in Slytherin"

Indeed, and I'm in agreement that Hagrid has some good reasons to see it that way. Sadly, wherever you have your JFKs and MLKs and Churchills, you may also have Hitlers. I just don't believe that Slytherins are uniformly bad (they're just drawn that way) and they can not only be important during the upcoming conflict, but necessary. The whole school needs to pull together rather than cut out an entire group of students who may have very useful abilities.

[Siriusly]

never forget the words of Hagrid...."Their hasn't been a single witch or wizard that went bad who wasnt in Slytherin"
Peter Pettigrew wasn't in Slytherin.

[Remus Black]

But has Pettigrew really gone bad or will he redeem himself?
As to the real question, I don't think he mixed them up on purpose.

[Kimmetje]

But has Pettigrew really gone bad or will he redeem himself?

I myself think that Pettigrew went to Voldemort out of fear for his old friends. He still ows Harry his life, so he could redeem, but if he'd do that he'll probably be killed by Voldemort or a Death Eater, because no one leaves Lord Voldemort. Also, Pettigrew betrayed the Order (by turning spy) and betrayed HP's parents which every member of the Order probably remembers as the Potter's were good people.

I don't think the Sorting Hat mixes houses up, just like he put Harry in Gryffindor, which he did for a reason as Harry didn't want to go to Slytherin.

[CicadaInvasion]

"It is our choices that show who we truly are, far more than our abilities."

I think that your choice decides what house they are in. Almost everyone has ambition(Slytherin), a bit of courage (Gryffindor). Even the Death Eaters are loyal (Hufflepuff) to Voldemort, and many Slytherins are intelligent (Ravenclaw). It is not merely the possesion of these qualities that will get you sorted, but how you USE them, the experience of your past, and your hopes for the future.

[aggiefan1206]

House Unity. I think the DA was a huge step toward that. IT wants the houses to become one and stand up for whats right and put their differneces behind them. They can still have quidditch and stuff but apart from that they can all be friends

[Poledra]

I don't think the Sorting Hat would have made its warning unless there was a threat to Hogwarts. There may have been a threat to the wizarding world before that didn't necessarily affect Hogwarts and didn't require a warning from the Sorting Hat.

Perhaps we should think of the kinds of things that would threaten Hogwarts from the outside. Perhaps an attack of some sort? Or perhaps a mole who seeks to undermine from within?

I'm dubious of the idea of Hogwarts being attacked because of its many, many protective mechanisms. But I wouldn't put it past someone like Malfoy, Snape, or even someone else (or new) who seeks to destroy the school. The hat would be obligated to prevent the destruction of the school and warn those who are responsible, no?