Beyond the Veil

[rotsiepots]

Despite its somewhat humble appearance, what do you think is the significance of the archway and the veil? Is it a metaphor for death? Or something more sinister? Why were voices whispering from behind it? Where did Sirius go when he fell through it? And why on earth is it in the Department of Mysteries on a dais? What is it used for?

Any speculation is welcome, because I haven't got much of a clue. :)

[Loz]

I thought it was the gateway to 'the other side' - not just a metaphor for death, but death itself. I also think Harry's going to be going back to see it some time in the near future.

[Amina]

i am a little confused actually...did the curse kill sirius, or was he just knocked out, but falling through the veil killed him?

and the pun on that chapter 'beyond the veil' made me giggle. it was three in the morning, ok? *l*

[ultimate sacrifice]

I agree with Amina, I did not understand what curse was used and how Sirius actually died. What were the voices? Those that had passed over? I'll have to wait a few hours/days and go back and read it over. Left me very frustrated and confused! I really did not expect JKR to kill of Sirius until I realized she was setting us up at the beginning of the book with Harry enjoying his time with Sirius so much. I felt a sense of "dread" from the beginning of the book!

[Amina]

i think the veil is an entrance to the 'other side' as it were, and i wondered if that is what killed sirius so to speak. if he wasn't actually dead, so to speak, when he fell through, but more got trapped in the world of the dead?

i can't help thinking that there is more to his story line...i dont' think we've seen the end of sirius black. i really really hope not, at least.

[Weatherby]

I'm guessing it's another exstension of choosing death over life [Harry's talk with Nick but the opposite] or seeing people who died.
If you have a love one perhaps you hear them calling you?

[Reaver]

Ahh...this forum is open at last! ;)

Lupin seemed sure that Sirius was dead instantly after Sirius fell through, so Lupin must have a good knowledge of the veil. Do you think that everyone who dies goes behind there and makes all he whispering noises, or only people that have actually fallen through that veil? I was so upset when Sirius died, but I knew someone was going to cark it, so as I read through the book I had a constant sense of dread as I turned each page... :'(

[mystically_mad]

I hope we havent seen more of Sirius. I think the veil was the covering to the other side and the voices were the people already dead. I was under the understanding (hehe) that he was knoecked over by bellatrix and fell into the veil and was killed in there, or trapped.

[hybrid]

im not so sure weve seen the end of sirius... i mean jkr just said that he was dead... not that he would never return....

[mimbletonia]

I don't understand what Luna said about death at the back...
did she hear her mother through the veil too?

Does anyone here thinks that Sirius's death was accidental or due to his carelessness?

[dog star]

I, too, am confused about what *really* killed Sirius. Was it the curse, whatever it may have been (and I'm sure we'll find out later if it was), or was it the fact that he fell into the veil, and, thus, fell into the afterlife?

Regardless, I think Sirius' death says a LOT about his character. He died in a foolish, needless display of bravado. He was always one to thrive on attention and putting up a tough front, and it ended up being the death of him. It's not particularly a nice way to look at him, but it's true.

[Weatherby]

I think it said a lot about him but not necessarily negatively.
He rushed to help Harry as he did for him. They are very similar.

He may have thought of the potentional outcomes of death but perhaps he didn't have much to hold him on earth.

[rotsiepots]

Is hearing voices behind the veil comparable with seeing Thestrals? Were Luna, Harry and, perhaps, Neville the only people who could hear the voices?

[HemHem]

Isn't it significant though that that the room the archway and the veil was in was called "Death Chamber"? Page 721 (British version) - Dumbledore referred to it as such..
Now when I think of the words 'Death Chamber' I get the impression that its like in the real world where a convicted person is sentenced to the death penalty and the procedure is done in the death chamber.
But as far as I know there isn't a death penatly in the wizarding world...is there? I get the impression that life sentence at Azkaban is the wrost sort of punishment there is...

[Jerkwater]

I had assumed - and never really gave it another thought - that the veiled arch was the method used to carry out capital punishment (death penalty) in the wizarding world. Whether it is currently in use, or was retired long ago (as I believe) is unclear, but the fact that it was surrounded by a seating gallery and located in the "Chamber of Death", I'm not sure I can come up with a better explanation. Everyone who went near the arch was attracted to enter it, so it seems like a humane and painless form of execution.

[gnome]

[i]Originally posted by HemHem
Now when I think of the words 'Death Chamber' I get the impression that its like in the real world where a convicted person is sentenced to the death penalty and the procedure is done in the death chamber.


That was my understanding as well. Do we know for sure that there is no death penalty, or are we just assuming that, since Sirius didn't get it and the Dementor's kiss is even worse, there isn't one?

From things said by Lupin(?) it seems there's no chance of things coming the other direction through the veil, so what other function could that room have other than to send people to their deaths? Perhaps it's do do with being able to hear the voices of the dead, perhaps get messages from the deceased. If it was though, you'd have though there'd be some sort of safety barrier to stop people falling through it and dying. Huh?

Perhaps we'll find out in the next book.

[Weatherby]

Why don't they use the death chamber over the Dementors kiss then? The latter sounds like very cruel and unusual punishment in comparison.
Unless it's a form of hell. In this case this is very Buffy when Angel is sent to hell.

[rotsiepots]

Could the Death Chamber be used in funeral ceremonies? After all, we don't know about funeral practices in the wizarding world -- perhaps after a witch or wizard dies their body goes to the Death Chamber for a journey through the veil?

Is that what Luna meant by "seeing" her mother again?

[Moah]

The curse didn't kill Sirius. It was the same curse used on Hermione IIRC and she didn't die. So, it only pushed him through the veil and the veil killed him.

[legrandtango]

I think to me on retrospect, the death penalty thing does very likely, although i am sure it has been used for some time. It does seem scary how close harry was from going though it. It does seem stange how late dumbledoor turned up. When snape contacted the order, you would think dumbledor would have been contacted. If he had been there from the beginning noone would have died at all.

[HemHem]

Originally posted by rotsiepots (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=387891#post387891))
Could the Death Chamber be used in funeral ceremonies? After all, we don't know about funeral practices in the wizarding world -- perhaps after a witch or wizard dies their body goes to the Death Chamber for a journey through the veil?

Is that what Luna meant by "seeing" her mother again?


That's a very interesting idea! The only drawback though is that the Death Chamber seems to be a secert thing being located in the Dept of Mysteries and all but still...an interesting idea!

[lupinfan]

One of my questions was "What's the point of having a Death Chamber?" It could be something the Department of Mysteries are researching? Maybe as a means of talking to people who are dead. Or it could be a long lost capital punishment tool. Seems more likely as there was banked seeting. The courts usually seem to be round like amphitheatres though, rather than oblong like this one. Mmmm. I think Harry will go back there too, like Loz.

I think falling through the arch is what killed Sirius rather than Bellatrix's curse, which incidently was a flash of red light, rather than purple which is what knocked out Hermione - fell free to correct - it's just from memory.

I'm with Rotsie - I thought it was like Thestrals too - Luna and Harry could hear voices, but not Hermione or Ron.

[EmilyRose]

I believe it's a way to find out information from people who did not become ghosts when they died.

The Department of Mysteries could use a way to get information from dead people, or to find help. It would be more useful than Dumbledore's portraits, even.

I believe we'll be back in that room eventually. Harry will ask about it, and then be determined to go there and speak to Sirius.

They study time, obviously. Why not death?

[dog star]

Originally posted by EmilyRose (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388235#post388235))

I believe we'll be back in that room eventually. Harry will ask about it, and then be determined to go there and speak to Sirius.

They study time, obviously. Why not death?


I agree. I think the Death Chamber is the room we'll definitely revisit, perhaps on more than one occasion. Sirius will be back in some form, some way, some how.

[MadMagic]

I was also very confused about the fate of Sirius. Falling through the veil seems like such an unfinished way to die. We didn't actually see him die, he just disappeared. I hope we see him again in some way. He was one of my favorite characters.

Also I was reading that part after 30 some hours with no sleep so I could have missed stuff. But I thought that Harry and them had looked behind the veil, but I guess that wasn't right. They had just seen behind it.

[wolfie]

"And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?"
"Er - isn't it"? Said Harry uncertainly.
She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?"
"You mean..."
"In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them."
~Pg 863 American edition

What Luna is saying is that Harry will meet Sirius again when he dies. I found that so touching! All his loved ones will be waiting for him when he goes to the 'other side.' *sniffle* (and on a sidenote, how can psycho Christians hate these books? Isn't that a very Christian idea, that you will meet up with your loved ones when you die?)

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

I was thinking that it was like a gate way or something like many of you had said! Heres what Luna said to Harry at the end
She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?
"You mean...."
"In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, thats all. You heard them."
They looked at each other. Luna was smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extrodinary things.... yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too.....
Thats probably the most info we get on the Archway and the veil.
I think Headless Nick might have told harry something thought.
Yep hears what nick said.
"I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I beileve learned wizards study the matter in the department on mysteries---"
"dont talk to me about that place!" Said Harry fiercely.
So harry did learn about death in a new way in many diffrent waus well kinda. LOL:clappy:

[Thayet]

I'm not entirely sure about the function of the veil, or if it is indeed death. As it is the department of mysteries, it is somewhat a mystery, and not only that, the department of mysteries seem to create things, and try to discover things - so what if they hadn't finished experiments upon the veil, and sirius comes out of it one day? Trapped...

[Cat]

I think, for the purposes of descriptive writing, the Veil itself was a metaphor for death. Have you ever heard the saying 'They're not gone, they're just in anothe room' used when somebody dies? The idea is that they're in a place that you can't get to, but still there and still near. Just behind the black Veil. You can't meet them, but you know that they're there.

[Leda]

I agree with dumbledore2905, because of what Nick said, it's obviously some researchroom for the Mystery department where thy try to figure out what comes "after death".
Also, am I tho only one who's certain that we won't see Sirius anymore? I know a lot of people must be hoping for it, but come on, JK wouldn't be so upset if it was just a "temporarily" death. And she said herself: "He was gone, and that was it".

[~BrandyTook~]

The veil did seem like a very sudden and imcomplete way of dying. He wasn't killed by the curse because he look shocked, not dead. He fell though the veil. I tall seems so incomplete in my mind, which makes it more sad. It just so sudden and unexpected. One minute he's taunted, the next he fallen though the veil, and is never coming back. As for the veil, I like the theory of the Death Chamber being used as the sort of death penalty. Not that it's a pleasant thought of course. It's the theory that would make the most sense.

[Harry_Potter]

I am very confused at the concept of the veil, the archway, and a dais. Sirius is not coming back, that would be too easy for Harry. Why couldn't have Hagrid died. In the 5th book he really peaked with his annoyingness in my mind.

[Divi]

The veiled doorway was one of the things that I was most curious about after having read the book. Harry heard whispers behind it, but who do you suppose was whispering? Can you only hear people that died in your presence, or is it some sort of window to every dead person’s soul? I have a few theories and questions-

My guess is that you can hear more than just the person that you witnessed die, but you have to have witnessed a death to hear the voices. We know that only Luna and Harry could hear the voices beyond the veil, so since Ron and Hermione could not hear the voices, nor could they see the Thestrils, I think you must have experienced a death to hear the voices.

Once you can hear the voices, the question becomes “whose voice can you hear?” I think it’s more than the specific person you saw die. Luna only experienced one death, her mother’s, yet she agreed with Harry that she could hear people whispering beyond the veil. How many people can there be beyond that veiled entrance?

Another question I had about it was whether you could pass through that doorway. Is it unsafe to go through, or is it possible for living people to walk through it? Sirius fell behind it after he died. Would it be possible for people to go behind there to retrieve the body? Nobody did, nobody checked his body to see if he was alive or for any reason, so I wonder about whether people can pass through that veil or not. I do think that Sirius is dead though. JK said when she was talking about how painful it was to write the book that she re-wrote the scene, and then "he was definitely dead".

Later on, near the end of the book, Luna hinted that she might be able to hear her mother again because of the veiled platform. What did she mean by this? Are there times when people can approach the doorway to speak to the deceased? Or was she speaking vaguely, suggesting that her mother’s voice will always be with her? The use of this veiled doorway seems very mysterious to me. Could Harry use it some time in the future, or is it kept for certain uses only?

The last thing that I wondered about was what the doorway was doing there in the first place. Harry thought that the room it was in was the same room that he was questioned in during his suspension trial. This means that the doorway must have been brought in for a certain purpose for the ministry to use at a different time. What was the doorway doing there? Were people from the ministry questioning the dead? What information or purpose did they want it for?

These questions all seem very open-ended, and I’m guessing that we might find out the uses of this doorway in one of the next two books. I don’t think it would have been there if it were never going to be referred to again, because it seems to have a purpose in the book that we just don’t understand yet.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Harry_Potter (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388943#post388943))
I am very confused at the concept of the veil, the archway, and a dais. Sirius is not coming back, that would be too easy for Harry. Why couldn't have Hagrid died. In the 5th book he really peaked with his annoyingness in my mind.


Annoyingnes? He was tending to his rescued brother! He obviously loved his brother to pieces, even if he was being ripped tp pieces in the process. I think it paid off. I also think it made Hagrid even more lovable.

[dog star]

I'm not saying his death will be temporary...I'm saying we'll see him again sometime, somehow. There's a difference. Seeing Sirius doesn't mean he's alive.

[Fleur]

The veil intrigued and disturbed me. I am a very curious person, and just to see Sirius dissapear was shocking, becuase I wanted Harry to open the veil to see who was talking. Does the MoM even know what's going on behind that veil? Hopefully in book six we get to talk to a member of the Department of Mysteries that knows and explains what the veil is.

[DocHollidaywe]

I think that the Veil is the other side, and you can hear voices if you have someone on the other side (somone that was close to you, or someone like your parents) Harry could hear voices, perhaps it was his parents ... Luna hear voices ... Her mum. However the rest did not hear any voices.

Another explanation, you can only hear the voices of the person if you saw them die.

[Thayet]

Quote from Divi:

"The last thing that I wondered about was what the doorway was doing there in the first place. Harry thought that the room it was in was the same room that he was questioned in during his suspension trial. This means that the doorway must have been brought in for a certain purpose for the ministry to use at a different time. What was the doorway doing there? Were people from the ministry questioning the dead? What information or purpose did they want it for? "

Used by the ministry for questioning the dead - this seems an excellent theory. That could most probably be along the lines of the truth. I don't see why it couldn't be true, as it seems the sort of procedure that could happen, beyond it is the souls of the death in the after life, type thing, a sort of gateway that may be penetrated but not crossed.

Or am I just saying this because I refuse to believe Sirius is gone completely?

[jaedi]

When I read the veil part, I was realy confused because there was no real explaination for what it really was that I can remember (well... I DID read it at 3 in the morning...;))
I think that the way Sirius died was very non-dramatical. He didn't give a dying speech, he didn't scream in agony, he just... died. It made me feel the same way Harry did, I was in denial for about 10 minutes.

[daniel4hp]

Well, my first thought was that it was a form of execution. I don't know if the Wizarding World has the death penalty, but even if they don't, they very likely once did, and I don't see it as totally impossible that they wanted to carry executions out in the Department of Mysteries. The prizoner would be forced to walk through the archway, which would transport them to the afterlife.

However, I am no longer convinced of this, although I'm not sure what the purpose of the veil is. It would help to know if Sirius was dead prior to passing through the archway, or if the archway killed him, but we don't know. I'm inclined to say that it was passing through the veil that lead to his death, but we don't really know.

It would be nice to know the purpose of this, though... :shrug:

[SiriusSeverusFan]

I truly don't know what the purpose of the veil is, but I hope Harry can communicate with Sirius through it. I agree with those who said the death seemed incomplete. One moment he was lookin' like hot stuff, taunting Bellatrix, then he apprently died. My shoulders shook and I breathed a few times thinking, "Oh God...Sirius is dead...no, he can't be! But I just read it, I just read it and he's dead," and then I started crying. I hope he comes back in some way, shape or form.

I was also thinking hearing voices had something to do with seeing someone die, or having someone close to you die. Otherwise, is there another reason why Luna and Harry heard voices, but not Ron and Hermione?

[Dumblydorry]

It was weird having Sirius' body just disappear. You would think that it would just stay there and his soul would go through the veil. So, when any wizard dies, does he or she go through the veil, even if they don't die in the room? I don't think so because Cedric's body didn't seem to go anywhere! This leads me to believe that it was the curtain that killed Sirius and not the curse! Alright I'm confused! Did Harry and the others actually go through the veil when they were investigating it? If he didn't go through it, what would have happened to him if he did? Would he have just died right there? Which brings me to another off topic (sorry) question- can Harry ONLY die from Voldemort according to the prophecy, meaning, is he safe from all other forms of death? AHh! Also, i have another questionthat I don't feel is worth starting a new thread: What is a bell jar???????????? Wow I think I just read that part of the book too late at night. I better reread soon!

[Virtuousdream]

I wonder what would be seen if the weil was pulled back, not stepping through it, just pull it back to have a peek.

Insane to have it there in the first place, no security whatsoever, no protection on it, anyone could just fall in *sulks*

I like the funeral Idea, though it seems a strange place to have it!

[Ollia_Bekke]

I think the veil is representative of that which separates us from the dead. Harry and Luna could hear the voices...but it never specifically says no one else could hear them. All we know is that both Hermione and Lupin did not want Harry to touch the veil. It would appear that passing through the veil is a one way trip. I think it is a beautiful concept though...all we need to do is part the veil and there will be our loved ones, ready to talk to us...

[lupinfan]

hi all

Dumblydore - a bell jar is a glass jar shape like a bell but with no clanger - so if you want to get into it, you usually pick up the whole thing up and pull out whatever's underneath.

I already posted in here, but having read some more....

I was expecting some sort of a speach or heroic sacrifice thing or SOMETHING. Lupin is so convinced that Sirius is dead and gone, and I have to admit that from what JKR has said too, that I don't think he's coming back either. Sorry.

[FatalBeauty]

"Beyond the veil" is a term people use to talk about the afterlife, so I think the black veil represents the entrance to another world, the afterlife. I'm not sure if it was the veil that killed Sirius or the spell from Lestrange. Luna said that the people behind the veil were "just lurking out of sight" but I'm not really sure what that means....I'm basically really confused about this whole subject.

[Lestrange]

Originally posted by dog star (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388970#post388970))
I'm not saying his death will be temporary...I'm saying we'll see him again sometime, somehow. There's a difference. Seeing Sirius doesn't mean he's alive.


...I thought that too. I'm not very in denial anymore about Sirius being....dead... but...I don't know, Harry wanted to talk to him so much and.......Well, I really never thought about the veil until he fell through it, but now, like the rest of you, I'm wondering what killed Sirius: the veil, or the curse.....

I think the theory about the veil being used to talk to the dead is a really good theory, at least, it explains why all the seats were facing the same way as they did in the Pensieve.

[Imortus]

Here's something to think about for the future:

In mythologies around the world, there exists a belief that people can travel to the realm of the dead, the afterlife or whatever you want to call it. The problem is, naturally, returning. That seems to be a no-no. But some cultures have described a 'silver chord' that grounds the living body to the present world, much like a safety line, but more umbilical in nature (that is, it's a part of the person, or the person's psyche, not an actual rope of spun silver.) So perhaps Harry, or someone else, will attempt to travel 'beyond the veil' to make contact with Sirius or anyone else who might be in the realm, believing themselves safely grounded to the world of the living via this silver chord.

A silver lining, if you will, for those of you who would like to see Sirius return in one form or another.

Oh, one more thing: The mythology also states that if the silver chord is severed while the person is in the otherworld, the astral plane or wherever it is that they have travelled, they will be trapped there for eternity. A big risk to take.

[Dumblydorry]

Imortus- nice theory! This silver chord reminds me of the connection between Harry and Voldermort's wands in GoF: remember how they couldn't break the connection? I don't know, that probably has nothing to do with it.

[Remus"Moony"Lupin]

Well...I'm not entirely sure...but maybe, since the curse didn't really kill Sirius, assuming that it wasn't Avada Kedavra, and because the veil could possibly just be a door to the afterlife, maybe Sirius really isn't supposed to be there and there'll be a way to get back to him...He can be saved, right?! RIGHT?! *Whimpers*

[Pizza In A Cup]

Hmm, didn't Lupin say that Sirius couldn't come back? Well, if no one can come back from beyond the Veil, maybe this is the only way to get rid of Voldemort once and for all. Just a thought.

[Mad-I Moody]

I, like others, believe that Sirius is gone for good. He's dead. *sniffle* But, I am also of the mind that Harry will find some way of communicating with those he loves that are behind the veil. It may be only a whisper - something like what he sees in the Mirror of Erised, or like what he saw when his parents emerged from He Who Must Not Be Named's wand - but it will be something that provides him with comfort, strength, and closure.

The veil, to me, was sincerely dramatic. Although Sirius' death was sudden, and it did just "happen," he died in a very heroic way. The veil itself seems something beautiful and horrible at the same time - something you desparately want to touch, but are repelled by at the same time.

I, too, wonder what those who work in the Department of Mysteries have found/will find out about the veil and what is beyond it. I wonder if they will find a way to travel there for a temporary amount of time and still return. I feel certain that we will see it again, in book 6 or 7 or both, and I also find myself wondering if it will be the demise of Voldemort? I wonder if Harry has enough hatred in him to perform Avada Kedavra appropriately - he is certainly building up many strong emotions against Voldemort - but I still don't know if he could truly delight in the pain of another person. Isn't that what Bellatrix says makes the Cruciatus curse work? In that case, I can see Harry stunning Voldemort (or something similar) and causing him to fall through the veil. Perhaps they will both fall, with Harry sacrificing himself.

It is all so mysterious and sad. Poor Harry.

*Remember Cedric and Sirius*

[Virtuousdream]

Yeah, Harry pushes him through it, quite a shocking end to the series!

Seriously...this is just the introduction of the veil. I have a feeling once Harry has calmed down a bit he'll ask more about the veil.

[Elina Makropulos]

I thought this was interesting, I found it on a random webpage:


http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/images/mortality.jpg

The Rod and the Veil, by Franz Johansen (1975, cast bronze and resin, 87" x 99"). "The figure reaching through the veil suggests those in the spirit world concerned about our progress in mortality; the iron rod itself, reaching into both spheres, is the sure guide through mortality upon which all of us, like the slipping boy, must struggle to retain a firm grip.

Referring to someone who has died, one might say they're "beyond the veil of the living", or have been "shuffled loose from the mortal coil". There is SO much imagery involved in the idea of death - even in the Christian religion, there is a story concerning a veil - Veronica's. The myth involves Christ travelling on the Via Dolorosa on his way to Golgotha, and a woman named Veronica offering her veil to wipe his face. So the story goes, after he did his face was imprinted on the veil. (sort of as in the shroud of turin) In fact, the veil is supposed to still exist, but many believe it's a fake and that the story is just a myth. There is some reference to it in the Bible but the woman is never mentioned by name - the name "Veronica" derives from the greek, "vera icon", or "true image."

Sorry this is so long - can you tell I'm an anthropology/religious studies major? :O

[Katze]

I so want the silver lining, but I don't think Rowling is going to give it to us.

I don't think he was dead when he fell through, which leaves the door open for him to contact Harry in some form?

I had a bizarre and scary thought...

I wonder - if at the end, after Harry has killed voldemort - if he's going to choose to fall through the veil to join his family. Yes - I wonder if Harry is going to commit suicide. After this book, one really has to think whether Harry is going to be able to recover emotionally. He hurst so much now, and it seems that no matter what people say or do, he'll always hurt. His sadness grows with his isolation. I just wonder...

I do think we'll see the veil again. There is no doubt. I think that if Rowling had meant to be just in this story, Luna would not have mentioned it.

[Remus"Moony"Lupin]

Well...even if Harry can only talk to Sirius through the veil or in some other way, then I hope by the end of the series, they'll at least have cleared Sirius' name and perhaps given him a proper memorial. Sirius will definitely be back in some way though because he and Harry still have things to talk about...like what did Sirius really feel about Harry? Did he see Harry as...Harry? Or Harry as James? He did mention that Harry was less like his father than Sirius thought, but would that affect his view of Harry in any way?

[Mandragora]

Doesn't anybody wonder about Ginny and Neville's reaction to the veil?
1. We know that you had to have witnessed a death in order to see thestrals.
2.We know that Harry, Luna, and Neville can see thestrals, and that Ron, Hermione and Ginny cannot.
3. We can assume that you must have either seen/heard a death to hear the voices beyond the veil, supported by the fact that Harry and Luna assert that they can, infact hear the voices.
4. We can assume that Neville should also be able to hear the voices supported by the fact thet he was staring at the veil "apparently entranced"
5. The only remaining question that I have is why would Ginny be staring at the veil in the same manner as Neville? They had to be physically pulled away from it because they were so transfixed. Has Ginny seen a death? If that were true then it would have to be between th time they left the thestrals and when they arrived at the black veil. Unlikely. However my theroy is that you must see a death to see a thestral, you must hear a death to hear the voices. Therefor Ginny may have heard sombody die in her past.

Or she could just have a thing for pretty black veils(in wich case, would Hermione and Ron not reacted in the same way?) ...but I like my theroy anyway!

[MagpieOnaga]

Originally posted by Mandragora (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=390784#post390784))
Doesn't anybody wonder about Ginny and Neville's reaction to the veil?
1. We know that you had to have witnessed a death in order to see thestrals.
2.We know that Harry, Luna, and Neville can see thestrals, and that Ron, Hermione and Ginny cannot.
3. We can assume that you must have either seen/heard a death to hear the voices beyond the veil, supported by the fact that Harry and Luna assert that they can, infact hear the voices.


Yes! I'm absolutely on your wavelength here, though I think the reasoning is more subtle than you suggest -- I don't think there's merely a rule that, like being able to see the thestrals, means you must have "seen death" in order to be entranced by the veil. I think that, because the veil is practically the manifestation of death, something so entirely mysterious and incomprehensible to humans, even if you have never been told what its function is, it incites strong emotions in those who see it -- drawing some to it, while others fear it. I think that explains the different reactions to the veil. Notice that Luna and Harry are the only ones who say they can hear the voices. Ginny and Neville are entranced. At the same time, Ron and Hermione seem afraid of the veil. Perhaps there's an explanation for their differing responses to the veil.

What do Harry and Luna have in common with each other that they do not share with Neville, who has also "seen death"? Well, if you remember Neville's response earlier in the book, when Umbridge questioned him regarding why he could see the thestrals (p. 449, American version), Neville claims it was his grandfather he saw die. Though he might have been close to his grandfather, I'm assuming that his bond with his grandfather was not nearly as strong as the bond between parent and child. Luna Lovegood lost her mother; Harry, both his parents. And it is clear that both Luna and Harry desire very much to see them again. Perhaps you can only hear the voices if there is someone you have lost whom you desperately wish to see and speak to again?

Ginny and Neville have both experienced terrible and traumatic events in their lives, and likely feel more sensitive towards heavy subjects like death than the average person, which would explain their fascination with the veil (a fascination which does not quite extend to the point where they hear voices -- to our knowledge, they haven't got anyone they desperately wish to see again). That would explain why they seem more interested in the veil than Ron and Hermione, who have neither witnessed death nor (probably) thought about the subject much, and merely fear it.

[MagpieOnaga]

Sorry to double-post, but I have another point to make, and I didn't want it to get jumbled up in that long post.

Nearly Headless Nick said something that I think clears up questions as to why the veil was in the department of Mysteries, and what its use was.

"I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I believe learned wizards study the matter in the department of Mysteries--"

"Don't talk to me about that place!" said Harry fiercely.

So, IMHO, I think the veil resides in the Department of Mysteries for the purpose of studying death.

[Nuriko no Miko]

Wow, alright... the waterworks have finally stopped. I have to say that, brief as his existance was, Sirius was probably my favorite character and has been since we found out that he was on Harry's side.

Now, that said, I truly don't think that this is the last we will be seeing of Sirius Black (~does the hopeful dance of happy hopefulness~). As a writer myself, his death came across as unfinished. He wasn't dead when he went into the veil, and - I don't know about you guys - but that leaves me with a little hope, feeble as it may be.

And on that note, I don't think that JK Rowling would take away Harry's last true link to his family. Sirius was truly the only real family that Harry had left (let's face it, the Dursleys can't truly be called 'family', and even though Sirius was not related to Harry by blood, he was the closest thing to a father that Harry has had since Voldemort killed his parents) and I find it difficult to believe that Rowling would take him away in such a manner. Basically, it would upset the balance she has created for Harry's sanity. Anyone else see where I'm coming from here? Sirius is too important to Harry's character to go and simply stay gone.

I have to agree with Remus "Moony" Lupin when she said in her post that the veil might have been a gateway to the afterlife. As Sirius was not dead when he went in there... maybe there's a way to get him back. Now the agony lies in the WAIT for the 7th book T_T Alright... I feel better now. Not quite so bitter. Time to get off to sleep... now if only I could stop this infernal twitching in my eyelid...

[MissFlibble]

I think that the veil represents death, the "doorway" between this world and the next.

I think that going through the veil, not the curse, killed Sirius.

I'm certain that Sirius is dead permanently.

I'm hoping that Sirius will talk to Harry in a dream or something.

[soapgirl]

Originally posted by EmilyRose (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388235#post388235))
I believe it's a way to find out information from people who did not become ghosts when they died.

The Department of Mysteries could use a way to get information from dead people, or to find help. It would be more useful than Dumbledore's portraits, even.

I believe we'll be back in that room eventually. Harry will ask about it, and then be determined to go there and speak to Sirius.

They study time, obviously. Why not death?


I agree with this. In another thread I mentioned that the people who fall through the Veil become some sort of Guardian Angel/

[Pink]

I think it's kind of ironic that Sirius dies and falls into the place where Harry and Luna hear the voices of their dead parents. Although, we didn't know about this until after the death...but it's something to think about.

I was kind of annoyed how vague JK was about Sirius's death. We don't really know for sure what spell killed him...he's never laid to rest...I'll admit, I cried over his death. It would've been nice to get some closure, but then, this book was a lot darker than the previous ones.

[Orimono_Shujin]

He could not have possibly died from the simple Stunning Curse set on him. It wouldn't have had enough power (We can see this because the Death eater - forgot her name - clearly expected him to come out again at first) to send him into shock.

Maybe this has something to do with the rumor floating around about how 'Ghosts and Stuff' will be explained in the 7th book?

[psychoticangel]

When the group is in the mysteries department Harry is entranced by what is behind the veil under the arch. Then when Sirius dies it says that he goes behind this veil. Could this be like a portal to the afterlife? What does everyone think the significance of it is?

[lorna]

I think it is something like that and I think it's part of some Celtic legends
the veil between this world and the next. And there are times and places the veil is thinner - like say Halloween - when it's more likely you might see a ghost. A lot of Celtic legends have their heroes blundering through the veil into another world.
So I gotta tell you I'm not 100 hundred percent convinced that we won't see Sirius again. But I am convinced he's dead.

[preludetoadream]

Well in my opinion it was going through the veil that killed him. I think the veil leads to the land of the dead, and that's why it's in the deparment of mysteries, death is a mystery.

[Sincerity]

lorna got to it first. *pout* But yeah, I feel the same way. Although, what exactly was the curse that Bellatrix uttered when Sirius died? I don't think it was Avada Kedavra...Dunno. I'm gonna have to read the book again. ;)

[psychoticangel]

I think it would be cool if sirius came back through the veil.. but I'm sure if he actually will. It is kind of strange that we never find out if his cousin actually killed him or if it was falling through the veil that did it. hmm.. who knows! I just think that in some interviews jk rowling says that she was crying about killing him off so that kind of insinuates that he's gone for good. :'(

[xxquixx]

could anyone tell me if sirius' body would still be recoverable? i mean, if that place is the afterlife, then that would mean his body and soul both got there?

[Hotmama2]

Maybe he didn't die....and this veil thing gives JK an out!!!

We can only hope......

But I feel sure we will learn more abou the veil in the next book... I am sure Harry will have a lot of questions of DD when he gets back to Hogwarts!

jj

[Picko]

The veil was in a death chamber, Sirius went through it and nobody even considered the possibility of him surviving. He's definately not going to come back through the veil.

[bocoson]

Yeah...and the fact that JK said someone will DIE...and all those stories about her crying...if she planned to bring S back why would she cry so much...

And yeah I think it's a sort of gateway to death...might play important part in Voldemort's whole "conquering death" thing.

[flashing_spirit]

We never heard what spell Bellatrix shot at Sirius, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Avada Kedavra. Maybe there's more than one spell that causes death. I think that he was dead before he fell through the veil. If it was a portal to the afterlife, wouldn't you have to be dead to go through it?

[preludetoadream]

He's not comming back. This is like when some one you love dies and you keep expecting them to walk through the door cause you just can't belive it, but just like real life Sirius won't be walking through that 'door'

[Picko]

The spell wasn't Avada Kedavra, Sirius was clearly still alive as he went through the veil. Going through the veil causes instant death, it's a death chamber afterall.

[preludetoadream]

yeah I too was under the impression he was alive has he fell through, just from the way it was described.

[Picko]

Well he was still laughing after being hit by the curse before realising that he was going to go through the veil and die.

[flashing_spirit]

*shivers* This is so freaky. How on earth did the Ministry get a death chamber anyway? Do you think they created one?

[Picko]

It would be the same as capital punishment for muggles, if a person does a cry that is bad enough they get death I'm thinking.

[Kneazle]

I'm going to merge this with another thread called "Beyond the Veil". :)

I agree with several others that the Veil, coupled with Luna's remark about people lurking out of sight, just behind the veil, is a metaphor of death and the life-after-death. Sirius does seem to be alive when he passes beyond the veil, so one would assume that it is indeed the passing behind it which causes him to die. I'm baffled as to how the Ministry got it there; I doubt that it was used for punishment, because they seem to use Azkaban & Dementors as punishment for crimes. I wonder if they will just let it be from now on.

[Hotmama2]

What if Sirius makes contact with Harry with the mirror???

I really hate the idea that Sirius is gone.....

[Picko]

He can't make contact with the mirrior because he doesn't have it. Remember Harry's already tried.

[Virtuousdream]

Harry also broke the mirror, a bit stupid of him because Ron could have used it if they took the other mirror.

I can't see the veil being death sentence, I thought they all went to Azkaban and the worst punishment was the kiss, because the soul got removed! This shows they know they get a choice after death! However as it had seating around it, what if it's a funeral place?!

[Picko]

Well whatever it is it seems well known, Lupin for one knew exactly what it was which makes me believe that it has been used for some sort of death sentence. Afterall the room is known as a Death Chamber, it must have function other thank looking good.

[rs691919]

Killing Sirius was a brilliant literary device by Rowling. Sirius meant much more to Harry personally than he did to the mechanics of the plot. If one's reaction to his death is strong, think what it would have been had a more major (Sirius didn't really appear that often in the series until Book V) character died (e.g. Hermione or Ron).

Sirius' death really sets up the next two books, as it will allow Rowling to delve into Harry's psyche even further, and who knows what she will discover? After all, we look at Harry at the end of Book V with a great deal of pity, but also with trepidation. He has suffered loss after loss after loss. He has asked for none of the noteriety, but he remains the boundary line, so to speak, for much of the wizarding world. You either think he's nuts, or you think he's a hero. Tough on a fifteen/sixteen year old kid, eh?

[daniel4hp]

This shows they know they get a choice after death! However as it had seating around it, what if it's a funeral place?!
I like the idea, but in the Department of Mysteries? A rather odd place to hold funerals, don't you think?

[Yuuki]

I think the veil leads to the world of the dead
I also think that its possible Sirius is still alive its not very likely but I think its possible
I think that there is a chance that Sirius is stuck between the worlds because when he fell through the veil in to the world of the dead he couldn't stay there because he wasn't dead yet but he doesn't have a way to get out.
Or he's just dead:(

Thats my opinion

[Virtuousdream]

Yes, thats the only downside to the argument. Unless they have lectures there for Aurors to talk with people who are dead.

I think that veil is crucial to the series because of how it is a mystery and how his death is mysterious.

[Imortus]

I just want to point out something:

The veil is clearly in the Department of Mysteries because, well, it is still a mystery. I doubt it is used for executing wayward dark wizards. The stadium seating around it might be akin to an operating theater, where different researchers can gather around while demonstrations and various tests are performed, but I think the true nature of the veil, as well as its possible applications for the future, are still shrouded in mystery, even to the Ministry of Magic. Otherwise, it wouldn't be in the Dept.of Mysterious Mysteries of Strange Mystery anymore. ;)

(bonus points to anyone who can place the 'Mysterious Mysteries of Strange Mystery' line)

[Loony]

Quote from Nuriko no Miko:
~ And on that note, I don't think that JK Rowling would take away Harry's last true link to his family. Sirius was truly the only real family that Harry had left (let's face it, the Dursleys can't truly be called 'family', and even though Sirius was not related to Harry by blood, he was the closest thing to a father that Harry has had since Voldemort killed his parents) and I find it difficult to believe that Rowling would take him away in such a manner. Basically, it would upset the balance she has created for Harry's sanity. Anyone else see where I'm coming from here? Sirius is too important to Harry's character to go and simply stay gone. ~


I think Nuriko no Miko is really right about Sirius-Harry bonding. But who knows? Maybe JKR wants to make Harry feels really deserts and isolates from the rest of the world and thus Harry will be so sad and lonely and want to go beyond the veil one day when he had killed Voldermort/or go into the veil with Voldermort.

But I'm really disappointed that Sirius had not play his part fully in this story, I've expected Sirius to play a more major role in book 5 than just stay at home and then died so suddenly.......

[Inkwolf]

I think Harry will try to find out information on how to communicate with people 'beyond the veil.'

This brings up some interesting possibilities...one, that Harry will turn to Firenze or Trelawny for the training. (Mediums are a traditional aspect of divination.)

Or, since all sorts of necromancy are considered Dark Arts (including speaking to the dead) maybe Harry will suddenly get involved in Dark Arts?

What happens if a ghost wanders through the veil? Do you think they could come back?

[lufc_chic]

I think the veil is the biggest mystery in book 5... and the way Sirius died was just ironic... Made me wonder what the hell is behind the veil??? I would feel a little bit better if Sirius has died in a fight with Voldemort or something... not that I want him died

[Bit]

I think some people are seeing the veil differently from the way I am. I saw the archway as sitting on the middle of the dias, with the veil draped in between, covering the archway. When Harry and co. first go into that room, Harry walks behind the veil and hears the voices. He asks Ron if that was him speaking, and Ron poked his head around the archway and said no. It seems to me as if the veil itself is the other world. That's why Sirius' body didn't come out the other side... he's trapped in between the layers.

I was very upset when I read that scene. I started crying as soon as Sirius got hit with the curse (like many others I don't believe he was dead until he hit the veil). I had actually written down a list of predictions I had for book 5, and I had a list of poeple whom I thought might die. First I had Mrs. Weasley, then Neville, then Sirius. Right next to Sirius, I made a little note - "Would be so CRUEL". I guess I should have seen it then, huh? I was really looking forward to seeing the charges against Sirius proven false and that the real culprit was Pettigrew... I guess it's too late now, though. Although Sirius' name can still be cleared, now H&S won't get to enjoy the freedom - not having to disguise himself everytime he goes out and such.

Very off-topic, but upon formation of the D.A. I was convinced that Neville would be killed. Perhaps it will still happen in the future, but I was struck by such a hard sense of foreshadowing when Neville disarmed Harry and Harry thought that he doubted that in a real duel situation, Neville's opponent would be staring in the opposite direction with his wand held loosely by his side.

[*_nymphie_*]

how is it that harry and luna can hear the voices?!

[FirefightingMuggle]

I think the veil symbolic of the seperation between life and death. Legands say that on Halloween the "veil between the worlds is at it's thinnest" meaning the veil between life and death. So....maybe Harry will visit this room again on Halloween, and be able to speak with Sirius and others who have passed on. What we physically see, the black veil in the archway, is a physical symbol of death, and the veil is death itself.
I believe that archway has ancient magic, as it doesn't really seem to me that it would fit into a modern day idea of Death. It's like a gateway to the other side. Maybe the Ministry is trying to bring people back from the dead, or just communicate with the dead by using it.

[purplecrayon]

I was wondering that myself...I think it's not a metaphor for death, it is death. Like Loz said, it's a gateway to the "other side."
I wonder what they use it for though! It occured to me that they might use it for executions or something, but then I remembered that the dementors did that. (and even if it was used for that, why would it be in the DoM?)
Maybe Ministry people use it when they need to know something from someone who has passed in order to solve a crime or something.
But I think this will definitely show up in another book. It seems that JKR never creates something new in one book without using it again in another book. (ie Scabbers had a bit of an unknown identity, the pensieve showed up in books 4 and 5, Dumbledore mentioned the time in the first book when Harry asked why Voldemort tried to kill him...etc.) I can't wait!
~*K*~

[Maydeleat Greenly]

I think the worse part was that he was asking for it. That was what made me not cry until the mirror.... something makes me think or believe that he'll be back somehow. I think the veil killed him to be truthful...But I dunno I just thought it was so disgusting the way he died in trying to be a big man and then when she described his eyes bulging in shock... that made me think that she killed him right there... but why was he so shocked when he was asking for it? Why oh why? dddddddddaaaaaaaa He was foolish to do that when he knew the consequences of Harry being left alone.....ahh... Im missing him already! Why did he have to be so foolish? I hope it was the veil that killed him...I wonder what will become of Harry now... perhaps Lupin will now play the role of Harry's trustworthy friend... but it will never be the same... although Lupin is awesome. I just don't know about sirius being gone Im sure he's dead but.... all I know is that Harry's gonna go after that veil!

[LewsTherin]

I think the Archway is simply the gateway to the afterlife. Being that it concerns death, only those that have brushed with death can sense it's purpose/significance, or hear the voices. Others, like Hermione, can only sense that it's dangerous. I think that anyone who walks through it passes from life and into death, and they cannot come back. Lupin clearly stated that Sirius was gone, and he must therefore know that it is a "one way" deal. JKR has made it pretty clear that death is final, so I think Sirius' death is final, and that anyone who walks through is also going to be quite dead.

I think the real question is how on earth such a thing came into existence. It seems to stand in a kind of amphitheatre, on a dias (which is probably raised), which means that either the archway was constructed around some kind of portal, or the portal was purposely made. If it was purposely made, then we can assume that it was made for some sort of ceremony (considering that it's in an amphitheatre, with wooden benches, which means people watched whatever went on). But to what purpose? The Ministry obviouly don't know it's purpose, as it is in the Department of Mysteries. It seems to draw people that have seen death towards it, and since you die when you pass through, it literally draws them to their deaths. Perhaps it is a way for those who have neared the ends of their lives to pass through painlessly into death, which is why it's in an amphitheatre? Maybe a ghost can pass through, once it has tired of its existence? Perhaps the voices are the loved ones of those who are about to pass through, which would explain why there's such a poweful attraction to it? One thing's for sure, it is one-way.

Whatever it is, it's something really fascinating. Pity Sirius had to bite it though, as now people will never look objectively at the thing.

Sorry, I'm rambling. Anyway, hopefully I made sense.

[Jessica]

Okay my random two cents:

The light from BL's (nasty evil nasty wench :( ) wand was red.

When V casts AK it is always green.

Is the color due to the wizard/witch or the spell?

If the latter then the curse was not AK. If the former all bets are off.

Also JKR says Sirius is definitely dead in the BBC interview (doesn't say its Sirius of course) so I don't think he's coming back to life.

I do think we will see more of his past self though.

[Ollivander]

The only way is for someone to ask her on an interview... if she says "no, he is dead" then we will never see him again, but if she says something like "i cannot tell you or maybe" i think it is likely he may return... the point is that pisses me off! i have yet to see ANY reason why he needed to have died.. and why couldnt it have been some git like Snape....

[millerbrad]

People are mentioning that the veil may be some kind of "death penalty" for wizards. What exactly would you have to do to get sentenced to the veil? They thought Sirius killed about a dozen people, and he still went to Azkaban. All those Death Eaters did some pretty nasty stuff, and they were supposedly all sent to Azkaban.

On the subject of wizard courts... What's the point when they have Legilimency?? Maybe the people who go to Azkaban are criminals who didn't have their crime CONFIRMED by Legilimency (i.e. they knew Occlumency -- or they were innocent). Maybe if the court can confirm that they're guilty of a crime using Legilimency, they'll get the veil instead of Azkaban.

And again -- here's a theory of mine, although NOBODY is biting :bite: on it. I think when you go through the veil, you become a dementor. The veil kind of reminds me of a dementor's hood. Also, JK mentioned in all those interviews how she was such a ruthless & horrible person for writing about Sirius' demise. I thought he went out in a pretty dignified way, myself. It might be a bit more horrible if now he's a dementor. That would mean that the person Harry cares about most would have turned into the thing he fears the most. Also, maybe that's why Headless Nick says Sirius can't become a ghost. It would also explain why Dumbledore doesn't trust the dementors -- they are all ex-criminals (or maybe ex-Death-Eaters).

[Earendil]

Hmm. Interesting Dementor theory. However, I think that to understand this we need more background on exactly what a dementor is. I don't think that a living, breathing human being can *become* a dementor, despite the coolness of this idea, and I'm not sure how I feel about Sirius changing into one of those horrid things.

Since the Veil room is called the Death Chamber, I'm pretty sure that going through the veil leads the people to their death. The fact that there were voices whispering beyond it could indicate something about a Land of the Dead (a la His Dark Materials), but the people behind it are most definitely dead. I don't think JK will take a get-out-of-jail-free card and bring Sirius back: it would be too easy. She said the person was "definitely dead" after she wrote it.

And about the curse Bellatrix used on him before he went through: she sent him a red one first (Stunning) and then she sent him another one that we don't know the color of. It could very well have been green, but knowing it would definitely confirm these Is He Or Isn't He debates. :grumble: It seems that after it hits him, he suffers from a pretty hefty shock, but it could have been a particulary strong Stunner that sent him through the veil. I know not.

[mystically_mad]

Wow I like the dementor theory. I dont know how plausible it is though.
Nymphie, I think Harry and Luna could hear the voices because they have seen death, just like they could see the thestrals and noone else besides Neville could.

[msheard]

could the veil be the thing DD was talking about 'worse than death' ?

[Mega]

I'd like to think that Sirius it just trapped behind the veil but he will be able to come back (in some shape or form) to say goodbye to Harry. I think it would be cool if Sirius could come to Harry in dog form to say goodbye.

[amy460]

Perhaps what is behind the veil is a "fate worse than death" Dumbledore doesn't explain to Harry why Sirius is dead but everyone who saw him go through said he was gone. Harry felt an urge to go through the curtain when he was standing there... I wonder why? Is it because it draws people into it? Or is it because it is where people go when they die and he felt drawn there because he had loved ones there?

[raptor]

I definitely feel that the veil killed Sirius, not the spell. As for what the veil is, it would be reasonable to assume that wizards and witches have been researching death, ways to come back from death, and immortality. We have already seen the Philosopher's Stone as evidence of these researches. The veil may be the result of other researches along these lines. The shape of an archway suggests to me that is has been research on how to travel between this life and the afterlife. Perhaps to allow people to come back or to allow living people to visit the dead. It would appear that so far it is a one way trip. The fact that Harry and Luna heard voices may mean that they are close to achieving a two way arch, at least for communication. It may also simply be the fact that they have seen loved ones die.

The capital punishment idea and the funeral ideas are also very good and it is easy to see either one being possible.

As for seing the Thestrals, anyone who has seen death up close, or nearly died themselves see's the world in a different way than most. We tend to enjoy the moments more and cherish the time we have. Death can be so sudden and final. In the blink of an eye your best friend can be gone forever. A lot of times it comes from unexpected sources when we least expect it. I think JKR captured that very well in the book.

I would like to see Sirius back, somehow, in some form. Remember Nearly Headless Nick said he chose the 'pale imitation of life', perhaps Sirius will have an opportunity to choose too. I doubt he will be back though, I think this is JKR's way of showing us how final death is.

I do think we will see the veil and room again.

Cheers

[Neila Weiss]

Raptor, I like your idea on the veil... I find it interesting, however, that Bellatrix seemed aware of the exact properties of the veil and thus the consequences if one were to fall through it. This to me suggests the presence of a more ancient artifact, one well known throughout the wizarding world as I doubt the Ministry of Magic would've sent her daily updates on their research progress in her cell in Azkaban. :)

[SnowWhiteOwl]

Well, I enjoyed reading all of your theories, and don't have an original one myself...Only, it's certainly not the last we'll be hearing of Sirius and the veil, and I, naturally, cannot wait till Book 6... I think it was a horrible thing to kill Sirius, I started crying right away, and I do hope...I don't know, just fix it JKR...You can't just leave him like that... :'(

[Chalice]

'Fraid I haven't got time to read the whole thread so I don't know if someone's already said this, but I just wanted to say -

The barrier between this world and 'the other side' (i.e heaven/hell/where dead people go etc) is supposed to be much closer than we think - in fact, I've definately heard it mentioned as being as thin as a veil. Can't remember where I heard that, but as soon as we read about the veil fluttering in the breeze and the voices, I knew it was the other side. I thought it was VERY interesting of JK to illustrate death in this way.

Chalice

[mystically_mad]

I have heard of that as well chalice. I think Sirius is gone for good but that doesnt mean we wont see him again, in some form.

[JustRelax!]

If the veil is a death penalty, like an electric chair for wizards, perhaps what Uncle Vernon says in 'A peck of Owls' kind of foreshadows what is to come - he says something like 'Do your lot have the death penalty?' or something along those lines.

It it is a place that leads to your death whay did no one from the order, if they seemed to know what it was, warn Harry when they came to his rescue. Harry was right near the veil when they arrived and was even contemplating walking through it (luckily Hermy stopped him!)

Basically we are gonna find out more about it. I found it quite eerie but v. interesting and i really want to know if the death was definitive or whether Harry is still able to communicate with the person who died. Probably not, but at least i want to know what Luna was talking about hearing their voices. That was creepy...

[mystically_mad]

Very interesting about the death sentence thing.
I think the voices thing was really creepy but also kind of cool. I think the veil will be back in the next two books.

[Andromeda_Black]

Has anyone read 'The Last Battle' from the chronicles of narnia series?
I haven't read it for ages so cant remember exactly what hapens but the characters all pass through this door to a kind of stable and find themselves to be dead and in the afterlife. This is what i was reminded of with the 'veil' and the idea that Harry wants to go through it and he can hear the voices of loved ones on the other side.

C S Lewis was very religious and so he wrote about the afterlife in a really beautiful and idealistic way, they find that the world you go to once dead looks excatly the same as the real world but better and the deeper into this world you got the more wonderful it becomes until you get to the very heart of the world.

I dont know what JK's religious views are but i cant really see her writing in this way, however something along thoses lines seems to me to be an effective way of ending the series. i think she clearly has a theory about death worked out ( she has already started to explain it with the gohsts) and i definately think the 'veil' will be used to develop this theory.

Another thing that is intersting in 'the last battle' is that some charachters ( I think it is the dwarves) do not believe in the afterlife and so when they go through the door they cannot see their surroundings, they are just in darkness and dont know that they are dead. I think that is an intresting idea and ties in with the some ideas JK has developed about choises, such as how a wizard can choose to become a ghost and how Dumbledore emphasises that it is our 'choices' in life that are important. Perhaps for people like Dumbledore; passing through the veil is not such a bad thing because they believe that there will be some kind of afterlife, but for Voldermort, who is devoid of emotion and who has no one he cares about enough to wish to see in the afterlife, death really would be the worst thing as it would just be darkness and nothingness.

I dont think JK will follow the same pattern as 'The Last Battlle', im sure she will manage to suprise us with the ending but i just began to see some similarities emerging and thought these are ideas worth considering.

[mystically_mad]

That is very cool but in the "Last Battle' they go through a stable door and they come into a beautiful land but if they dont believe in Aslan then they just thoght they were in the cold dark stable and the delicious food and drink was dirty food and water.

[Padfoot_Uk]

ive posted my thoughts on this briefly in other threads but its time to bring them home

beyind the veil, i think is a sort of world of the dead and people like Luna and Harry who have seen someone die can talk throught the veil to the person they saw die. this would explain why only those two could hear the voices. this then brings up the possibility of Harry still being able to contact Sirius and also being able to tie up all loose ends with Cedric. the bit about Sirius would make Harry happy and eager to return there and the Cedric bit could help tie up the Cho Chang plotline and bring her grieveing of Cedric to rest once and for all!

neway thats just some of my thoughts on this matter, i will post the rest as soon as i remember them! :rolleyes:

[Filia Tenebrarum]

There seem to be two questions at stake here: firstly, will we ever see Sirius again; secondly, was the veil or the curse the cause of his death.
I'm fairly certain Sirius death is final; it would just look stupid if, as one person put it, he did a Gandalf and bounced back up again like a cork in water. It would be cruel (all right, even _more_ cruel) to put Harry through all his anger and grief and then just bring Sirius back.

I think the various rooms in the Department of Mysteries each hold a representation of some mystery. But because this is the magical world, the metaphors are not just metaphors but in some way _are_ what they represent. The time room actually contains time, the brain/thought room actually contains brains, and the death room contains death. The Unspeakables must have somehow bewitched that arch to be death as well as represent it, so that they could study death's mystery properly. I'm sure going through the arch is the same thing as dying. I don't think it would be quite right to say the arch was the cause of death; it was more the manner of death.

One more note: please, please, please don't let these books come to resemble "the Last Battle"! That book is the worst in its series; it was bad enough when I was little, now I find it positively sickening. JK has more nouse than that (I hope!). I mean what I say in my signature.

[Padfoot_Uk]

i agree it would be a very bad idea for them to bring Sirius back alive i just think it would be nice and add closure if harry was able to tlk to him one more time as his death was so suprising and sudden!

[Sonic_Pumpkins]

Does anyone remember the ambiguity of the Magic Cave on Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back? Well, if you don't, the only description given of the mysterious place was by Yoda, "A place of evil, it is." Indeed, it was a very confounding scene. People have theorized and mapped out histories of how the cave got there and of which evil Sith lord died there to give the cave an aura of evil. Every time someone rants about how the cave needs to be explained in Episode III, I just laugh and say, "That would undermine every bit of artistic quality that George Lucas and Irvin Kershner intended to put into that scene." If there is an explanation to something such as the Magic Cave, it loses its symbolic nature. Luke steps through the threshold and confronts the farthest extent of his fear and anger driven visage. He defends himself with more anger and the end of that path through life is shown to him when the Vader mask reveals his own face; self-destruction. Now, tell me, does that scene need a literal explanation? I certainly think not.

I just loved the symbolism in the book. The threstrals being a symbol of death and how people percieve it. Some cannot see it and they are the most afraid (Ron, Lavender, Hermione). Some see its awful face and must learn to look past to its living beauty soon accepting it (Harry). And, some simply accept it for another equally important aspect of life just like childhood or adolescence (Luna). The symbol of the veil was superb. Once again, some people like Hermione were frightened merely by its presence even though she couldn't hear the voices. Harry has lived with death for a while and he found the veil to be curious. And Luna makes more sense of it in the last chapter:

"And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?"

"Er- Isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly.

She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?"

"You mean..."

"In that room with the archway. They were just out of sight, that's all. You heard them."

I didn't particularly care for Luna's character until this scene. She appeared to be just a crackpot...but, she just percieves things differently. To her, the doorway between life and death is covered by the thinnest of material; not a wooden door, or a lock, or a fence...but a peice of fabric. Sure, Harry can mope about his loss. But, Luna is optimistic because she understands that life and death are one and the same only separated by a blinding veil upon the living. Her happiness is a matter of perception...as is everyone else's. I would be content if JKR never shows us the veil again. My perception of the scene was that Sirius was hit with a curse that killed him. But, he wasn't dead until he passed through the veil. Cedric still had time to scream before he died so Avada Kedavra doesn't kill straight away. I'm being kind of vague, but what I'm saying is that even if the veil wasn't there, Sirius would have died from the curse. Sirius simply touched the veil at the moment when his life was taken out of him. I don't think that Lupin was dragging Harry away from the veil...he probably would have told him so. Lupin was dragging Harry away from the battle b/c Harry is no match for 12 Death Eaters. Yes, I believe that Lupin saw the veil. But just like how Master Yoda only explained what was needed to know about the Magic Cave, Lupin only explained to Harry what was needed to be known, "He's not coming back because he's..."

Ultimately, I believe that the veil was a symbol for the close relation between life and death. They are the same, but only that the living cannot see past what is right in front of their eyes. The dead have transcended human physical senses. Although the dead cannot be brought back to life, perhaps there are ways for the transcendent person to communicate with them. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the series, Harry could be able to feel Sirius's presence although he has gone just beyond the veil.

[Nittaya]

I don't know what to think of with the veil.
However, when Harry came to ask Nick about death and ghosts, Nick said that Sirius can't come back, but if you'r to belive why some become ghosts (that is if ther is a connection with stuff they have unfinished, and people they love left behind) why wouldn't sirius come back? he loves harry oh so very much and would never leave him. he died because of his love and concern for him! Nicks answer was a little short though wasn't it?
Maybe, falling in to the veil is beyond death?
I do not like to think of it, as if it is, because i would very much like to have sirius back! but lupins reaction was odd to, i mean harry seems to be the only one reacting!
Is the veil worse that death? or is it not even death but more of a trap?
It's the worse cliff hanger ever because the chamber of death is such a mystery and I'm not going to live to see the next book if i don't get a clue soon.
I want him back, she could have taken any one, but not sirius.
That was a horrible thing to do to harry who now has no one, friends of course but no one like that. he lost his last family member. all for nothing.
It's horrible! and pure evil.

and to think of the size of the book, with much that could have been put out (i don't want to put out anything but you know how i mean) the aftermath of sirius disappearance is so short!
there is almost nothing of it!
and that, is strange.

[Christine Black]

I think that the archway was the wizard equivalent of the death sentance. It kinda makes sense since it was in a courtroom. Why would they be donig research on death in a courtroom?

[Bella Clava]

I think the arch is how the MoM studies death. Death and the afterlife is still a mystery and must be studied.

JK said that she intentionally killed Sirius in this "almost accidental" manner because this is war, and in war death is spontaneous, random and unforgiving. How many times have you heard about a guy being in a foxhole with a buddy talking to him and in the blink of an eye a sniper's bullet takes the friend out? It happened to a co worker of mine. He said "The sound of a bullet passing though your friend's brain is the same sound as of a penny being tossed into a fountain--that quick, that quiet."

The fact that JK mentions that is death is "almost accidental" leads me to believe Sirius got hit by a stunning spell and was "shocked" by the fact the Belatrix actually hit him that hard. The shock caused him to be knocked off balance. In this way there are SO many minor things that if changed, would have saved Sirius...... If Sirius had taken a step to the side, if Dumbledore had been more aggressive at rounding up the Death Eaters, if Sirius hadn't taunted Belatrix. Dumbledore's inaction has already been laid out by himself, Harry's inaction. Snape's inaction. The list can go on and on...

JK has said on many occasions that she is going to portray evil as something truely evil, not the 2D cardboard evil of Disney, where something is horrifically scary in the first reel and then you find out it's nothing really bad at all.

I think in was JK's very cruel way of saying......"fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride."

[aslkid]

I was thinking about what Lovegood said about did you hear voices? Maybe she heard one whispers but harry heard two whispers. Lovegood's whisper=her mom
Harry's whispers= his parents.

[summergrl5]

Ok, time for me to put my 2 cents in now that I am done sniffling for Snuffles...

I read all the posts and I think everyone has great ideas. Personally I think the Death Chamber is used to study death, as research seems to be the main focus of the Dept. of Mys. It especially fits with Nick saying that they study death there.

I also think we are going to see the veil again, if not anything else but for the fact that JK never leaves <i> anything </i> openended. I'm just hoping that the veil will be used to possibly provide some closure w/ Sirius. Although Harry's grief and JK talking about him definitely being dead and her wanting to show how death can be that sudden and unforgiving, this is is the wizarding world, and Harry has had slight communications w/ his parents so far.

I reread all the parts on the veil itself and I am totally lost as to what it is exactly. All I can tell right now is that there are voices behind it of the dead and Ron and company don't necessarily say that they can't hear the voices. And that Sirius was not dead b/f falling thru the veil.

What Luna means by "It's not like I will never see her again, right" remains to be seen...

And just to close up my ramblings....if Harry had only used that stupid mirror...I was wondering what happened to that thing. I can only imagine Sirius walking around w/ it waiting for Harry to contact him!!!

[kaoru]

Agree with Summergr15. I think the veil is for research as Nick said.
Still, it's still very confusing whether Sirius death cause by the spell or falling trough the veil. Didn't everyone who died by Avada Kedavra have that shocked/stunned look?

I still wish Sirius will come back alive eventhough the possibility is zero. Sirius death only sunk in me went Harry calling out Sirius name thruogh the two-way mirror. And I'm still in the stage of denial.... (*sigh & cry*)

And about Nick said that Sirius won't become ghost... I think because Nick implied that he was scared of death so as a wizard he can chose to become ghost. In the case of Sirius, I think Nick considered Sirius was not a kind of guy who fear death so he chose to go on to the other side. As Dumbledore once said... for the organized mind death is just another ???? (forgot, but it's something like that).

[Euthrel]

I am quite sure that Harry will use the Mirror (And say padfoot).

Or atleast..
I HOPE!!!!!!!

Think how great it would be if he could use the mirror to talk to Sirius, Lilly and James! =)

Well.. I would actually satisfy with Sirius.. =) As everyone has sad.. Sirius affection to Harry is great and likewise from Harry...

I hope I hope....

[Emma88]

I agree with several other people, in that I think that the Ministry studies death there. The Department of Mysteries was very creepy, and they had all sorts of weird things in there, so almost anything is possible.

If the veil was a 'link' between death and the living world, somewhere where most people go when they die, then presumably their 'spirit' would be in there, leaving their bodies in the living world. But what about Sirius, whos body went into the veil. Could he be in some kind of semi-dead state, but Lupins reaction makes me think that he is definately dead.

[Euthrel]

I am not quite sure..
To bad that Harry didn´t follow him =P

Because Harry can´t die yet.. Which makes it clear that Sirius would have lived as well =P

[caroline40]

Regarding the question why the death chamber is situated in the ministry , maybe the veil is so ancient and important that the ministry building was built around it.
Secondly since it can be argued that Sirius gave his life for Harry will this give Harry a further protection like Lily did .
Im thinking that this is why Sirius had to die, noone else would have sufficed.

[Katze]

Originally posted by Nittaya (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=403225#post403225))
and to think of the size of the book, with much that could have been put out (i don't want to put out anything but you know how i mean) the aftermath of sirius disappearance is so short!
there is almost nothing of it!
and that, is strange.


I felt this way too - it doesn't seem large, like it did with Cedric.

Consider this though -

Sirius was still known as a killer. He was on the run, and only a handful of people knew where he was and that he was innocent. Even fewer knew that Sirius was Harry's godfather.

So the number of people who would be impacted by his death is a very small sect of the population.

We also have to consider that Harry started pulling away from anyone who wanted to talk about it or comfort him. The only person he could actually talk to was Luna.

Since we see the story from Harry's eyes, we have no idea how the rest of the school reacted, or the world, because he removed himself from everyone for the remainder of the year. And he'll go back to the Dursley's for another summer bound in isolation - where the full impact of Sirius' death will finally happen.

[UnknownDude4]

Originally posted by Mandragora (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=390784#post390784))
1. We know that you had to have witnessed a death in order to see thestrals.

It never said you needed to see a human death... Of course, Ginny killed all those chickens back in her first year... but then, Harry's whole DADA class saw that spider snuff it last year after Crouch Jr.'s demonstration of the Unforgivables... So obviously, it would be a human death she needed to see..

The whole Riddle thing in CoS was big, somehow, I think, pertaining to Ginny. Bigger than just that year... Maybe that's why she was attracted to the veil... she had been near death, she had been possessed by Voldemort, she wents through something that we don't understand... yet.....

Ah... and that gives me yet another thought.... This came out of the blue to me! Ginny said that when she had been possessed by Voldemort, she couldn't remembered what she'd done... Yet, Dumbledore confirms that Voldemort possessed Harry back in the Atrium, when the "creature" with the red eyes has binded himself to Harry... and used Harry to speak to Dumbledore... and Harry remembers it. Is this another form of possessing, or does Harry's scar and the connection between him and Voldemort have something to do with it?


Anyway, back to what I was saying... I'm dumbfounded as to why Ginny would be the only one attracted to the veil who hadn't seen death... :??:

[mystically_mad]

I think it was the connection between Harry and Voldie, through his scar like you said.

[kaoru]

I don't know if someone has mentioned it before....
but Ginny had experienced of 'still living but only just' back in the Chamber of Secret....

[go_anna40]

I thought the veil, was death to some point.
I mean, a veil of death? It was believe-able when I think of it now, but when I first read it, I thought it was a veil of torture, close to death, the metaphor that is. I also was confused because was it Bellatrix that killed him or was the falling behind the veil? But blurry there, but I guess it's safe to say that both contributed to Sirius' death.
But now, it could be death itself.
Only time will tell.

[Runes]

Ever since I read the fifth book, I've been really trying to remember something. I know somewhere, either in mythology or literature.. well SOMEWHERE I've read something about this curtain thing that leads to the death world. There is no way to return from it. Its like falling down into an endless hole and being transported there instantly. Sirius would've died the moment his body touched the veil.. And I don't think he's in a semi-dead state.

Scary how Harry felt like just walking through the veil.

[RichRymer10]

I think that the veil is an experiment in the Dept. of Mysteries. Maybe they are experimenting with death. But, I dont believe that Sirius was killed. We all know already that Dumbledore is very cleer with the way he distributes information. (He didnt want to be face to face with Harry for fear of Harry being possessed). Perhaps they know that Sirius is well. I mean, they did rush Harry out of there. Think about this, Dumbledore rounded up the escaped Death Eaters and how suspicious would it be if suddenly the "notorious ringleader, Sirius Black" was seen on Dumbledore's side by Fudge. Then he'll really think Dumledore has lost it. And just maybe, by telling Harry that Sirius is dead, Dumbledore prevented Harry from risking another dangerous trip to the Dept. of Mysteries. I know theres going to be argument that it was stated by JKR that someone would die, but so were so many other things that didnt happen (Ron/Hermione relationship was supposed to be full swing, something very important was supposed to be revealed about Lily, and other things). Myabe this is just a mask set up by JKR. But, I personally believe that padfoot will make a triumphant return.

[McKinnon02]

Will Dumbledore tell the ministry that Black is dead? Remember, Fudge didn't know he'd been in the building, and Lupin stopped Harry trying to go through the veil to retrieve his Godfather. Was DD somehow able to get Sirius' body out, or was it just left there?

[Virtuousdream]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but cast your minds waaaaay back to those beloved Narnia books.

Remember the book the last battel? Remember they passed through the stable "door" to leave the shadowlands and travel further in and further up to the "true" Narnia, well it sounds similar to this veil. The true england and true Narnia we saw were symbolic references of heaven because in England they had died so their parents were there and they had all gone on up. Passing through the door lead them to the afterlife, symbolised in the true Narnia, and that's why I think the veil is the door to the afterlife.

Just my 2pence worth again :)

[juliweasley]

OK Sorry to dredge this one up again but I've been waiting a long time to get logged on
Here goes. The Veil is a metaphor for death "Beyond the Veil" is a saying used in many works. From the bible, where there is a reference to the veil or vail, to mythology to classical literature, etc. As well as Psychics and theologians....Jk has taken the metaphor and made it fact in her world.
What I find VERY INTERESTING is the fact that Sirius Black, a man who lived under the threat of having his soul forcibly removed from his body for most of his life (by the dementers) Has entered the realm of the dead with both his soul AND his body intact. Curious.....

[FredRocksMySocks]

Julie, very very interesting! I recognized the veil reference, and JKR never fails to amaze me lol! However, the whole idea of having his body and soul intacts when he goes beyond the veil is curious. I wonder how she will play that out in book 6! Do you think there is a means of contacting those beyond the veil--after all we did hear whispers!

[Ms.Sirius]

Yeh, I think the viel is a kindof "doorway" to death. Probably a one way door unfortunately for Sirius *sobs*. I don't think he was killed when he fell backward, just stunned. I think Harry will find some way back to that place later on and somehow talk with those on the otherside. Or maybe walk into it at the end of book 7 after killing Voldy...... Hehehe, who knows!
:eyebrows:

[hermeeownninny]

The veil represents the thin veil that some people believe lies between life and death. It's meant to show how precarious life is- you never know when you fall through the veil. The worlds of life and death are very close- when people die in their sleep they just "fall" through the veil. And Luna did not mean that Sirius would be back, all she meant is that the worlds of life and death are so close that he will never be gone. It goes back to what Dumbledore said in PoA, about the dead living on inside of us. As long as you remember someone they will never truly be gone.

[FredRocksMySocks]

hmm, right. i get what you mean...but i still think that the whispers that only harry and luna seemed to hear play some significance in whether or not harry will be able to talk to/see sirius again. would make for an interesting adventure in book 6, wouldn't it, though?

[Kassandra Amparo]

I myself think that we might see Sirius again.I read the last part again and again and there's one thing i just cannot understand, the other members of the Order seemed to be so normal after his death,even Lupin seemed to forget him so quickly.They all sounded happy when they met Harry at the station. I know that JKR was so upset when she wrote that part,but anything can happen! Sirius might only be trapped behind those veil or perhaps Dumbledore wanted to create his fake death to stop Harry thinking too much about him for some good reasons...
Moreover,Sirius and Bellatrix were the only two left fighting,and when Sirius was hit by the spell,it took quite a long time for him to fall, why did noone do anything to prevent him from falling through that veil ??? Lupin seemed to know a lot about what was behind that veil and Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard, why did they all just watch him falling and do nothing ???
Anyway,it's just my prediction.He's one of my favourite characters so i still hope we'll see him again very soon !

[Veneficus]

What I find so puzzling is yes Sirius was stunned by Bella and she clearly expected him to return through the veil. However the veil seems to be a one-way door (hotel california). So, is Sirius trapped in death or are their ways to return if you weren't killed in the first place?

[Sinistra]

The Department of Mysteries exists to study the various mysteries of life and death. In that room they study the mystery of death and what lies beyond the veil. Both Harry and Luna had witnessed death, so maybe that makes them able to hear those who have gone on. Like seeing the Thestrals.

To think the archway is an execution device would be like calling an anvil a tomato squasher. (If you drop an anvil on a tomato it will squash it.) It can be used for that, but that is not its' original intended purpose.

[Emmeline Vance]

Wow, that's a lot of post there.

Well, personally, i subscribe to the idea that the veil might be used for funerals. The death penalty idea makes a lot of sense, but i think JK made it clear before that death eaters are used for that task. Of course, it could be a method they used long ago.

Which brings me to the second thing. Why in God's name would those people keep that thing in there, unguarded, with no warning label... nothing. It should've had a big, red sign on it that says "BE CAREFUL! If you step or precariously tumble through this, you will then be completely dead." lol... but, dangerous things seem to be sitting all over the place in the wizarding world. It's just expected of people to be careful.

And thirdly, i really don't think Sirius will be coming back to life, ever. If JK were to bring Sirius back to life, she would be setting a horrible example for how we're supposed to think of death. Think of all the kids reading these books who have a natural curiousity about death. For her to present them with a soap operaey Dead Man Comes Back story line would be beneath her. I think she's more matter-of-fact than that; when somebody dies, they're dead. End.

I think Harry will definitely try to get back to that Death Chamber to talk to Sirius though, but i think he'll fail. Maybe Dumbledore will follow him in again, like with the Mirror of Erised, and give him a very sad speach about moving on with one's life. Poor Harry.

[Omi]

My theory is similar to yours, sinistra.
I think the veil is ONE of the passageways to the 'afterworld'. Where people who 'move on' (as opposed to becoming ghosts) It is in the DoM because theyre studieng death. People who thestrals could hear the people they saw die. And the thing about Ron dieng is totally codswallop in my opinion (no offense) Harry thought it was siriues there because he was looking for him, and thought he heard ron because he wasnt in sight. it is NOT foreshadowing Ron's death. (people who have no clue what im on about should check the thread Ron and the Veil)

[juliweasley]

I think the veil and the archway were actually taken from somewhere else and placed there. if muggles had come upon the archway of death, wouldn't most of them wish to destroy it? The curtain moved as though invisible people were going thru it-Souls of the departed. It appears to be the actual doorway to the netherworld. Where better to hide it than the department of mysteries in the hidden ministry of magic? Well, hide it and still be able to study it without destroying the fine line between life and death.

[adonaichild]

Something to add...I re-read the Department of Mysteries chapter again, and it talks about how curious Harry was about it...like something was making him stay there...and then the book says "something clicks in Harry's head, and he remembered he was there to find Sirius" do you think it's bewitched or something? I agree with everyone, that the Ministry probably uses it to study death, but it's so wierd--you know? Does EVERYONE go there when they die? Or just certain people? And also, what's worse then death. Dumbledore said that he wouldn't be satisfied with killing Tom...

[mel]

Originally posted by Divi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=388956#post388956))
Another question I had about it was whether you could pass through that doorway. Is it unsafe to go through, or is it possible for living people to walk through it? Sirius fell behind it after he died. Would it be possible for people to go behind there to retrieve the body? Nobody did, nobody checked his body to see if he was alive or for any reason, so I wonder about whether people can pass through that veil or not.
I don't think Sirius died before going through the veil. He was hit by a red light, indicating a stunning spell, and he seemed surprised by it. I think he would have had a different expression if Bellatrix's spell had slain him. I think its falling through the veil that killed him.

The last thing that I wondered about was what the doorway was doing there in the first place. Harry thought that the room it was in was the same room that he was questioned in during his suspension trial.
It wasn't the same room. Harry didn't go to the Dept. of Mysteries for his trial, he passed by it, which is how he remembered it from his dream. But he had never been through the door at the end of the corridor before, and the Death Chamber was beyond that.

I don't think Sirius is coming back. But I don't think we've seen the last of him... Perhaps Harry will talk to him again, I don't know. But I agree that we will find out more about the veil in books 6/7, JKR left too many unanswered questions and juicy clues. :eyebrows:

Originally posted by Dumblydorry (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=389544#post389544))
So, when any wizard dies, does he or she go through the veil, even if they don't die in the room? I don't think so because Cedric's body didn't seem to go anywhere!
I think that the veil may be just a portal to the other side, not the only way a soul can go. When Cedric died, his soul went to this place, but the veil is like a direct entrance to it... a way of killing people without a lot of blood, perhaps? Instead of fatally harming the person's body, they send the whole person, body and all, into the afterlife... less mess that way... perhaps more humane too...

But I agree with purplecrayon (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=393733#post393733), I'm not sure if the purpose of the veil would be punishment, since Azkaban and the Demetor's Kiss would seem a much harsher way to go, where you still exist and suffer.

Just had another thought - I wonder if Harry looked into the Mirror of Erised now, he would see Sirius too?

Originally posted by Katze (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=390180#post390180))
I wonder - if at the end, after Harry has killed voldemort - if he's going to choose to fall through the veil to join his family. Yes - I wonder if Harry is going to commit suicide. After this book, one really has to think whether Harry is going to be able to recover emotionally. He hurst so much now, and it seems that no matter what people say or do, he'll always hurt. His sadness grows with his isolation. I just wonder...
I think it would be very out of character for Harry to commit suicide. Suicide is selfish and cowardly, and Harry has shown he is the opposite. He has suffered a lot, and I agree that the more he goes through the more it isolates him. It will make him more and more complicated and perhaps innaccessible. But I think as long as people love and support him, he will get through it. I don't think he will ever completely heal though...

Originally posted by Mandragora (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=390784#post390784))
The only remaining question that I have is why would Ginny be staring at the veil in the same manner as Neville? They had to be physically pulled away from it because they were so transfixed. Has Ginny seen a death? If that were true then it would have to be between th time they left the thestrals and when they arrived at the black veil. Unlikely. However my theroy is that you must see a death to see a thestral, you must hear a death to hear the voices. Therefor Ginny may have heard sombody die in her past.
I don't know if Neville heard the voices or not, but it seems likely that he did. But people also seem to drawn to it, having an urge to walk through it, as Harry did. That may have been why Ginny reacted the same way as the others, not because she has seen/heard a death.

I like MagpieOnaga's explanation (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=391097#post391097) of the different reactions, too, where people are both awed and afraid of death, and your experience with it determines what you might see/hear in the veil.

Originally posted by millerbrad (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=397422#post397422))
And again -- here's a theory of mine, although NOBODY is biting :bite: on it. I think when you go through the veil, you become a dementor. The veil kind of reminds me of a dementor's hood. Also, JK mentioned in all those interviews how she was such a ruthless & horrible person for writing about Sirius' demise. I thought he went out in a pretty dignified way, myself. It might be a bit more horrible if now he's a dementor. That would mean that the person Harry cares about most would have turned into the thing he fears the most.
That would be so awful! But it would be quite dramatic for Harry, to say the least. Very interesting theory! :)

Originally posted by Filia Tenebrarum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=402207#post402207))
I think the various rooms in the Department of Mysteries each hold a representation of some mystery. But because this is the magical world, the metaphors are not just metaphors but in some way _are_ what they represent. The time room actually contains time, the brain/thought room actually contains brains, and the death room contains death.
I agree with this, I love how you explain it. :) But that brings me to a question I have had about the Dept of Mysteries: Why are the prophesies in there? It doesn't seem that they are studying anything, it looks like more of an archive. So what is the mystery of the prophesies?

When I finished the book my head was spinning with all these questions about the veil and how Sirius died. I'm glad there's a thread on it!

[Amadeus]

I think it's sort of like a black hole.. it sends you off to somewhere that no one has ever come back alive to tell someone about.... A different world maybe... I guess they assume the veil means 'death' because Sirius cannot come back from it...(at least that's what Harry thinks in book5)..

[Siriusly]

Originally posted by hermeeownninny (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=438939#post438939))
The veil represents the thin veil that some people believe lies between life and death. It's meant to show how precarious life is- you never know when you fall through the veil. The worlds of life and death are very close- when people die in their sleep they just "fall" through the veil. And Luna did not mean that Sirius would be back, all she meant is that the worlds of life and death are so close that he will never be gone. It goes back to what Dumbledore said in PoA, about the dead living on inside of us. As long as you remember someone they will never truly be gone.


I think this is an excellent interpetation. In my mind there is no doubt that The archway is old and magical (meaning not muggle) and that it is used for study, not a death penalty.

I think the veil is a gateway between the world of the living and beyond. As Sirius falls through his face he looks suprised, and after Lupin says "There's nothing you can do, Harry...nothing...He's gone." pg 806 American version.

I think that is why the archway was up on a dais, to prevent accidents like falling through it.

Incidently many wiccan and pagan beliefs present and past believe in a veil between the world of the living and the dead. The holiday of halloween stems from the belief that this veil is thinnest at that time of year. It was believed that our ancestors were able to come over during this time to give us guidance. Lights were lit in hollowed out turnips (not pumpkins) to guide the spirits way, and food was put out as an offering.

[MakeTeaNotLove]

Originally posted by rotsiepots (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=387585#post387585))
Despite its somewhat humble appearance, what do you think is the significance of the archway and the veil? Is it a metaphor for death? Or something more sinister? Why were voices whispering from behind it? Where did Sirius go when he fell through it? And why on earth is it in the Department of Mysteries on a dais? What is it used for?


Here's what I don't get:

1) What is a dais, first of all?
2) Say for the sake of argument, that this veil that Sirius fell through is actually covering the archway to the Afterlife, or the Underworld, or Hades or whatever you wanna call it. Say Sirius' immortal soul has gone on to exist in the realm Beyond the Veil. Fine. Now, what I don't get is, WHY is the Wizard Underworld kept in the Ministry of Magic? That's like the Christian Heaven existing under a veil in the White House.
3) What killed Sirius - Bella's curse, or the actual falling through the veil?

[Runes]

The Wizard Underworld is not kept under the Ministry of Magic. The department of mysteries only had created a door to study the afterlife world. Its only for RESEARCH ^^ (And pretty cool and dangerous research too. Wonder how they got a grant to go through the whole project.) *cough* Anyway.. so its not like the whole heaven under a white house thing at all.

The voices Harry heard. You know, in all the different underworld stories and tales I've read, like Orpheus and all that.. there's something like the dead calling to you to join them. They're lonely in there, and want their friends to join them. Something like that. So Harry heard the dead beckoning to him to come closer and enter their world. It makes sense to me that Neville and Luna heard the voices too. because they've seen death. But Ginny heard the voices too (i'm assuming, since she found the veil mysterious). So maybe the incident she had in book two, where she was so close to death, so close to entering the death world. Thats why she probably could hear voices too. Hermione and Ron haven't had any very-near-death incidents like that, nor have they seen anyone die. So maybe thats why they couldn't hear the voices. But Hermione was frightened of the viel. She knew it was something really dangerous.

Sirius died by falling through the veil. Its like he was transported to Hades instantly.

*shrug* Well, what do you think of my theories? Its just what I thought was the reason behind the veil.

[Siriusly]

A dais is a raised platform. If you have ever been to a large wedding, the wedding party sometimes sits at tables at a focal point in the room on a raised platform so everyone can see them. This is a dais.

[Heen05]

"The curse didn't kill Sirius. It was the same curse used on Hermione IIRC and she didn't die. So, it only pushed him through the veil and the veil killed him"

Thats true. I thought id bring up the point anyway that they said the spell was not as bad when it hit hermione because his voice was silenced.

[Bhodi]

Originally posted by MakeTeaNotLove (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=443965#post443965))
Here's what I don't get:

1) What is a dais, first of all?
2) Say for the sake of argument, that this veil that Sirius fell through is actually covering the archway to the Afterlife, or the Underworld, or Hades or whatever you wanna call it. Say Sirius' immortal soul has gone on to exist in the realm Beyond the Veil. Fine. Now, what I don't get is, WHY is the Wizard Underworld kept in the Ministry of Magic? That's like the Christian Heaven existing under a veil in the White House.
3) What killed Sirius - Bella's curse, or the actual falling through the veil?


Glad you found it over here... I forgot to put a link in my post on the other thread...

My take on the veil and the archway is that it was once used to execute death sentences... We know that the Wizengamot courtrooms are down in the DoM, so it would seem to make sense for a capital punishment chamber to be located down there as well... Perhaps capital punishment has been cast aside in the years since Voldemort's downfall, thus leaving the room in disuse [or opening the archway to study by the DoM]...

I don't think the veiled archway is the doorway to the afterlife in general... I think it traps in death only those individuals who have passed through it...

As for what killed Sirius... I believe falling through the veil was what killed him, not Bella's curse... Her curse was simply what knocked him through the archway...

That's my take, at least, FWIW... Cheers!

[ELLECHIM]

I think that we can agree that the archway and the veil represent the after-life, and that for some reason only those who have experienced death can hear the whispers. But I'm left with these questions:

Why is it that when Harry aproaches the archway, the veil swayed as though somebody had just passed through it? Did something enter or exit the archway?
Could there be a sort of guardian of the gate to the after life? Many religions talk about some sort of gatekeeper when they describe what will happen once you die. Its curious how the room resembles a theater, what if it is used as a sort of classroom where the unspeakables receive lessons of the after-life from such a gatekeeper. Could it relay messages from those who have passed through the veil?
If nobody can return once they've fallen or passed through the veil, How does anybody know they're dead? There couldn't be any confirmation.
Does the Veil collect the souls of those who have "passed" away and they all go through the archway? Can a wizard have a near death experience, get through the veil but come back and can tell others what he saw or comunicate a message (from Sirius)?

You'de think they would put a protection or barrier so that no one fell in by accident or become lured by the whisperings in the veil.
But then again the only ones there would be the unspeakables, who knows if they've ever experienced death themselves. And still, wouldn't they need to be experienced in the field they are studying.

Just some thoughts i've been having

[ana_banana]

The veil making you become a dementor terrifies me dude. OMG lol. Neville saw his grandad, remember, so he could see the veil like the thestrals but GINNY....who did she see? or is there something we don't know about? I mean...Ginny being attracted to the veil...surely everyone would like to die???
I think the veil represents life and death but I have a life that it might be something important in the next book.....

[Chloe]

Originally posted by rotsiepots (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=387585#post387585))
Despite its somewhat humble appearance, what do you think is the significance of the archway and the veil? Is it a metaphor for death? Or something more sinister? Why were voices whispering from behind it? Where did Sirius go when he fell through it? And why on earth is it in the Department of Mysteries on a dais? What is it used for?

Any speculation is welcome, because I haven't got much of a clue. :)

Ok, there is a book that you guys need to read that describes the veil-
It is called *Through The Veil* by Isobel Bird.... it is about wicca but it describes that on halloween The two worlds: Dead and Alive: are open and anyone can go through them... ok, that part was off topic but........
Anyways, It was the veil between death and life. You could hear people talking beyond the veil because those people were waiting for Sirius, waiting to pull him down to death. Whoo! That's probably the most philosiphical post I have ever posted!

[FredRocksMySocks]

I haven't been following the posts--I just have a quick question!
Ok, do you think that the veil is like the thestrals in that only people who have had somebody die can hear the whispering, cause it's like their dead friends/relatives are talking to them through the veil. Oh, and then, another one! DO you guys think it would be only the people whom they knew whispering, or random souls back there just chatting it up? Like, if Harry listened would he hear his parents and sirius and whatnot, but if neville listened, would he hear his own parents and grandfather, you get?

[fuzzi95]

Dumbledore said to Voldemort that there are things worse than death...does this have anything to do with it???

I got the impression that the room was a courtroom, and the archway was used to interogate them...the dead or whoever is behind there!

[Silkeng]

Originally posted by Moah (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=387916#post387916))
The curse didn't kill Sirius. It was the same curse used on Hermione IIRC and she didn't die. So, it only pushed him through the veil and the veil killed him.


Not sure if anyone has mentioned, but My rereading of that whole fight sequence, wasn't Hermione still alive because the curse was said in his head, because she had silenced him. Therefore it was less powerful?

[Virtuousdream]

No one's paid attention to my Narnia parallel!

The stable doorway lead out of the shadow narnia, to the pure narnia - heaven.

Therefore I think that it's heaven or something like that and it was harry's family whispering to him knowing he was close, but I can't see Lily and James wanting him to go, maybe they knew he was so close, but so far away and were trying to talk?

[seashell323]

I agree with you Hellhorns, and I do think that beyond the veil is something like Heaven (or some form of the afterlife world). The room of death has the veil -- and if you go through, it sends you directly into the afterlife instead of experiencing an earthly demise. I think all dead people probably end up there except for the ghosts that remain on earth; the only difference with Sirius was that he fell into this other world directly. I would assume that most people die on earth, and then travel (spiritually) to the same place. Maybe it was Lily and James that were trying to talk to Harry since I think they're probably beyond the veil too.

[Filia Tenebrarum]

Helhorns, I registered what you said about the Narnia parallel, but I don't think it can be taken too far. CS Lewis was a Christian, and basically modelled his novel's afterlife on the Christian one. I've no idea about the religious orientation of JK, but my impression is that she isn't terribly religious and is more likely to base her novel's afterlife on reality. Reality in this case being that death is a mystery and we simply have no way of knowing what happens afterwards. I think that JK will probably not elaborate on what's beyond the veil or exactly what the signifacance of the whispering is.
I've noticed that the more fundamental things get, the more the magical world resembles the muggle world. Trivial things, like whether the outside of something is smaller or larger than the inside vary, but basic things like the finality of death remain the same. The trouble with this thread is that no one seems to be quite clear whether we're discussing what really happens when you die or what happens when you die in the magical world. I think it's probably impossible to discuss one without discussing the other.

"Like, if Harry listened would he hear his parents and sirius and whatnot, but if neville listened, would he hear his own parents and grandfather, you get?"
I do get (interesting turn of phrase), that idea makes sense to me. I noticed that the people who were entranced by the veil were the ones who had seen someone die, or had been in some way close to death. Luna saw her mother die, Neville saw his grandfather die and has had to deal with his parents losing their minds, Ginny very nearly died herself in the Chamber of Secrets and Harry (who, significantly, was most entranced by the veil) has had more brushes with death than everyone else in the school put together. Hermione and Ron, although they have been in dangerous situations, have not come as close to death as the other four, and so are less affected by the veil.

"What I find VERY INTERESTING is the fact that Sirius Black, a man who lived under the threat of having his soul forcibly removed from his body for most of his life (by the dementers) Has entered the realm of the dead with both his soul AND his body intact. Curious....."
Yes, that's definitely one thing to thankful for. Considering what might have happened to Sirius when the Dementors were after him, dying in battle with his soul intact was a great way to go.

"I agree with this, I love how you explain it."
Thanks, mel!

[Chloe]

[quote](by runes...)
The voices Harry heard. You know, in all the different underworld stories and tales I've read, like Orpheus and all that.. there's something like the dead calling to you to join them. They're lonely in there, and want their friends to join them. Something like that. So Harry heard the dead beckoning to him to come closer and enter their world. It makes sense to me that Neville and Luna heard the voices too. because they've seen death. But Ginny heard the voices too (i'm assuming, since she found the veil mysterious). So maybe the incident she had in book two, where she was so close to death, so close to entering the death world. Thats why she probably could hear voices too. Hermione and Ron haven't had any very-near-death incidents like that, nor have they seen anyone die. So maybe thats why they couldn't hear the voices. But Hermione was frightened of the viel. She knew it was something really dangerous.

Sirius died by falling through the veil. Its like he was transported to Hades instantly.

*shrug* Well, what do you think of my theories? Its just what I thought was the reason behind the veil.[quote]
I agree with you on that runes.

[mel]

Originally posted by Filia Tenebrarum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=453225#post453225))
"I agree with this, I love how you explain it."
Thanks, mel!
You're welcome. ;)

Helhorns, I registered what you said about the Narnia parallel, but I don't think it can be taken too far. CS Lewis was a Christian, and basically modelled his novel's afterlife on the Christian one. I've no idea about the religious orientation of JK, but my impression is that she isn't terribly religious and is more likely to base her novel's afterlife on reality. Reality in this case being that death is a mystery and we simply have no way of knowing what happens afterwards. I think that JK will probably not elaborate on what's beyond the veil or exactly what the signifacance of the whispering is.
Perhaps, and I see your logic here. But I don't think she would take the metaphor that far. Yes, death is a mystery to us all. That must be why the Death Chamber is in the Department of Mysteries. But she has already given death some non-Muggle qualities (ghosts, whispering voices, the fact that there is a physical veil that separates us from it), so she has already begun to explain it, and it's not really based on reality. But perhaps that's because no one knows what the reality of death is. She has said in interviews that she does not believe in magic/ghosts/etc, so I don't really think she is basing this on her beliefs - I think she is basing it on magical myth and legend, and her own imagination. However, I think that while wizards' and witches' physical experience in the world in different from muggles, their emotional experience is the same. Death is still tragic and brings much sadness and grief, but we know that it is not necessarily final in the wizarding world, because it seems that you can choose to come back as a ghost.

Anyway, my point is that I think she will explain the veil and the nature of Sirius's death in the next two books. In fact, I think it will be a large part of the story. Once Harry gets over the shock, I'm sure he will have tons of questions about it, just like we do. While some of them will be unanswerable (the whys), others she will explain (the whats and hows). Death has always been a significant part of Harry's life, and it has been the dark undercurrent of all the HP books. I don't think she will leave this series with such a large theme unaddressed. She will give us closure.

[Amadeus]

I think it is something BETWEEN life and death..... it is a research room and trying to figure out what comes after death...

[Dannage]

I think that the veil was previously used as a death penalty for wizards, but it isn't anymore. I think that in the course of using the veil to kill criminals, the Ministry officials realized that the veil is not only a quick and easy way of killing people, but a direct link to the land of the dead. At this point, I believe, they shipped the veil off to the Department of Mysteries to study it further. They are most likely trying to find ways to communicate with the dead or even visit them behind the veil.

That's just what I think

[mystically_mad]

It sounds like something a government would do.

[Chloe]

Ok, I just re-read the book again and i found something: When Luna looks for her items, she talks to harry and she says somethings about her mom then the veil. She says something like, "But you heard them whispering, right?" Or I'm an idiot.... whatever.....

[mel]

I was pretty convinced the veil killed Sirius (as opposed to Bellatrix's curse) but here's a thought...

What if you have to be dead to pass through the veil? Maybe that's how Lupin and Co knew he was really dead, because he wouldn't have been able to fall through the veil if he was still alive.

I don't know, I'm not sure about it, but it could be the case.

[mystically_mad]

It could be but why would Lupin hold Harry back from the veil if that was the case. If you had to be dead to pass through then Harry would have been able to go near it and see that he couldnt get Sirius back.

Chloemnet, yes Luna does say something like that.

[Quasi_EviL]

I need to voice the thought that's been running through my head. Okay...

He had the strangest feeling that there was someone standing right behind the veil on the other side of the archway.
...
"Sirius?" Harry spoke again, but more quietly now that he was nearer.

Why does Harry think that Sirius is behind the veil? It's an odd thing to assume, so why does he get the feeling that Sirius just might be there? Maybe the veil is an element of death as well as time, and Sirius is already behind it, in a time travelling fashion.

[mel]

Originally posted by mystically_mad (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=464537#post464537))
It could be but why would Lupin hold Harry back from the veil if that was the case. If you had to be dead to pass through then Harry would have been able to go near it and see that he couldnt get Sirius back.
Lupin needed to get Harry away from the DEs as soon as possible. They were there to rescue him right? They didn't want to have to worry about him while they fought off the DEs.

Originally posted by Quasi_EviL (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=465766#post465766))
Why does Harry think that Sirius is behind the veil? It's an odd thing to assume, so why does he get the feeling that Sirius just might be there? Maybe the veil is an element of death as well as time, and Sirius is already behind it, in a time travelling fashion.
Well, he was looking for Sirius, right? I assumed that's why he called out to him. I don't know about the time-travelling stuff. I think it could just be Rowling foreshadowing his death. A bit of dramatic irony once you read it again... But it's very interesting that he felt there was someone standing behind the veil and he was drawn to it. I really hope JKR elaborates on this in future books.

[swtevejade]

i think the most logical reasoning for the archway and the veil is that it is a portal to the afterlife. once you go through the portal, you physically die but your soul lives on. not to say that if you dont go through the archway and veil your soul wont go on to the afterlife, but that this archway is just another way to get to it. DD said in the 1st book that "death is but the next great adventure." well, something like that. also, nearly headless nick said that he chose an imitation of life, while learned wizards study something in the dept of mysteries. hmm.... so much to think about now

[Padfootsnuffles]

I think that the veil is a portal to somewhere wehere no one has ever returned alive from. Hagrid mentions something about Mountains where Sirius hid. Sirius may have been teleported somewhere which is a secret place ( Explaning why Lupin or the others didi not do a thing. ) It may also be a place to sheild persons endangered. I personally think it is a no-man's -land kind of place (explaining Bella's reaction. She perhaps thought Sirius is now doomed. )

Something funny: Why not use a Time-Turner to go back and save Sirius like they already did with Buckbeak and Sirius in PoA??? Dumbledore must surely have one in stock.

Perhaps Dumbledore will use a time-turner latter on to save Sirius as Fudge did not know Sirius was in DoM. If he knew, he would arrest kim and Dementors would kiss him!!

Or PERHAPS they would send Fawkes to go beyond the veil and get back Sirius as Fawkes cannot die. Let's wait and see and if That :censored: of Bella killed Padfoot, I would Avada Kedavra her!!!

[Picko]

Something funny: Why not use a Time-Turner to go back and save Sirius like they already did with Buckbeak and Sirius in PoA??? Dumbledore must surely have one in stock.

Impossible, you've read PoA so you should know about time travel. Harry (future) appeared to save Harry (present) the first time things happened. If Sirius was to be saved someone would have saved him before he went into the veil when it happened. That didn't happen so it cannot be changed.

[mystically_mad]

Exactly what I was about to say.

[ClausBrisik]

Can't agree mates...
Buckbeak WAS killed, remember?

All this deal with the Time is quite hard to understand indeed.
In a teorical way, Sirius might have been saved, cuz there's nothing going against that idea.They just had to go there a few seconds away before he was knocked out and save is life.
But i guess we can't forget that big issue Hermione reminded Harry in the PoA that it is very hard to control time and all it brings along...

Anyway, it rocked my world...Siriu's just can't have died...:banghead:

**sigh** Rest in Peace, Padfoot, mate...

[Phantom Dragon]

Originally posted by ClausBrisik (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=469182#post469182))
Can't agree mates...
Buckbeak WAS killed, remember?


Buckbeak was never killed in POA, because the cropping sound was McNair striking the fence.

[ClausBrisik]

Indeed?
Gotta re-re-re-re-re-read that part...thanks for telling.
BRB...

[Padfootsnuffles]

But what do you think about my idea of Portal? And what about Fawkes saving Sirius?

[sunkist22]

this is my theory! i didnt read all of the posts so im not sure if it was posted yet!

so if that room with the veil is called the exicution room or the daeth room (i forgot which), they probobly/maybe do exicutions in it...and when u get exicuted it is kuz u did something very bad...and of course the veil is probobly magic so...maybe it only takes people who are guilty...and if it does then maybe sirius...who is innicent wont be able to stay behind the veil! Maybe he will come back as a different type of ghost or something???!!!

What do u think of it????????

;)

[Padfootsnuffles]

When Bella used the spell on Sirius, Dumbledore knew that Sirius would be hurt, so we ask ourselves a simple question: Why not use a Petrificus Totalus, Stupefy, Mobillicorpus, or a similar spell on Sirius to prevent him from falling through the veil??? It is said that stuBefy ( As Neville Says ) freezes an object or a person, Petrificus Totalus also does the same thing, so why has no one including Dumbledore reacted??? They were all occupied or what???

Or was Sirius's Death an intentional one? ( javascript:smilie(':banghead:') ) Lily Evans Potter sacrificed herself to protect Harry, so has Sirius done the same thing?? Explaning why no one reacted? ( Dumbledore and Lupin were both there )

What do you think???

P.S: If I have taken anybody's theories, let me know. Ok?

[Siriusly]

I think the reason no one tried to help Sirius is because everyone was involved in the duel. Harry says it seemed to take ages for Sirius to fall but it probably happened very fast. I also doubt that Sirius is going to come walzing out of the veil, or return as a ghost. He would already be a ghost, and if Sirius could come across the veil again so could all the others. I do hold out some small hope the JKR will find a way to return Sirius, and hopefully more than just a portrait.

[Quasi_EviL]

Originally posted by Padfootsnuffles (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472546#post472546))
Or was Sirius's Death an intentional one? ( javascript:smilie(':banghead:') ) Lily Evans Potter sacrificed herself to protect Harry, so has Sirius done the same thing?? Explaning why no one reacted? (Dumbledore and Lupin were both there)


I don't think Sirius sacrificed himself. He became a member of the Order of the Phoenix knowing he would have to take certain risks. (That said, he did spend the better part of the year cooped up at home, but by the end of the book he was tired of it.) He was simply duelling with Bellatrix, she sent that spell at him, and he went through the veil.

If Dumbledore or someone went back and saved Sirius, why didn't they save the Longbottoms? The Bones? The Prewetts? I don't think you can mess with death like that.

[Picko]

I must say I hope you are not getting your hopes up on Sirius returning in any real form. It isn't going to happen folks, he is dead and he won't come back. To bring him back would only lessen the impact of the death and send the wrong message to impressionable young readers.

As for performing a spell to stop him going through the veil, it'd be impossible. Spells move fast and although it was said that time appeared to slow down as Sirius floated through the air the reality is that it was only a case of Harry becoming absorbed in the moment - in real time everything happened in a couple of seconds. There was no time for anyone to react quickly enough to blast him out of the way.

As for the idea of a sacrifice, what makes people think that? There was no mention of Harry in Sirius's battle, no indication that it was going to happen. Sirius was fighting and had no intention of dying, unfortunately he did and that's all there is to say. He's not coming back, there's nothing sinister about it. The guys dead end of story and that's the way it'll remain.

[NorwegianGirl63]

I think the vail will come up in one of the other books. And I'm not sure Sirius died. Mabe he is alive in the place behind the vail, and will make a surprise appearance back in one of the 6th or 7th books.

[Snuffle-griff]

Sirius better return, god, Im still crying about it, I think he'll possibly come back, but not like solid if that makes any sence, and the veil will for sure be in the next books.
It sucks that they didn't tell you what spell she did on him, and dumbledore couldve prevented it. If you ask me JKR had no reason to kill off sirius, thats just my opinion.

[Snitch8130]

Intresting thought that they would use the room for the death sentencing, but isnt that what azkaban is for?

Also Nearly Headless Nick said that they were experimenting with this sort of thing in DoM, and Harry being the emotional idot at the time said, "I dont want to hear about the DoM!" Well what are they experimenting with anyway, the ghost part or death?

[Quasi_EviL]

Originally posted by NorwegianGirl63 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=473702#post473702))
I think the vail will come up in one of the other books. And I'm not sure Sirius died. Mabe he is alive in the place behind the vail, and will make a surprise appearance back in one of the 6th or 7th books.


What in sam's hill?...I'm sorry if I sound mean, and I know that JKR is famous for her red herrings but look:

JKR: Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, "What on earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the person". Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, "I've just killed the person. And he said, "Well, don't do it then." I thought, a doctor you know... and I said "Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer."

You can't get more deader than that.

[Padfootsnuffles]

Perhaps they will use a time-turner. I know, I know, when we use a time-turner, there must be something happening in the present

Quote - Picko

mpossible, you've read PoA so you should know about time travel. Harry (future) appeared to save Harry (present) the first time things happened. If Sirius was to be saved someone would have saved him before he went into the veil when it happened. That didn't happen so it cannot be changed.

Perhaps that scene happened at Grimmauld place before Sirius leaves of in Umbridge's office or somewhere we are not told about. Who knows what's inside JKR's mind (imagination)?

Perhaps, they are going to kill Kreacher? or tie Sirius at home?

I want Sirius back!!!javascript:smilie(':\'(')javascript:smilie(':banghead:')



P.S: Final error. This is the last error you will ever see. Your system is about to be hosed, your computer will melt and burn a hole to the center of the earth, you will be incinerated and all civilization as you know it will be destroyed. Thank you for choosing Microsoft products.

[Fortescue]

What Luna said about the Death Chamber was rather insightful, I thought. I mean, she obviously thought that the whispering voices were coming from the dead. And Harry heard the voices too, so she wasn't just making it up... The room isn't called the Death Chamber for nothing. I think Luna and Lupin both have a better idea of what the veil is than Harry.

[Filia Tenebrarum]

That's a point, actually: why didn't Lupin or Dumbledore explain about the veil and the Death Chamber and what it was all for? I got the impression that they knew.

[Fortescue]

Well, Lupin was probably too intent on stopping Harry from plunging through the veil after Sirius...and Dumbledore was explaining other matters to him, I suppose. I kind of wish Harry had asked Dumbledore about the veil, but maybe JKR is going to explain that in another book. At least, I hope she explains it. :)

[lemondrop]

Harry really doesn't want to talk about Sirius's death at the end of OotP so our questions about the veil don't get answered. At some point he is going to want those questions answered.