Who will inherit Sirius's fortune and estate?

[Fate]

My question is simple. Now that Sirius has passed will Harry inherit what is left?
Many threads were made about this before the OoTP was released and about how Harry's name had to be on the account for Sirius to send a letter and get Harry the Firebolt. But will he get what is left of the Black estate?

[Marcy]

Oh! interesting idea. Does that mean that he would get stuck with Kreacher, too?

I wonder how Hermione will feel about the house elf now?

[GodricSlytherin]

Hmmmm. Unless Sirius previously put that in his will or told this to dumbledore, which I think he left Dumbledore Grimmauld Place. Maybe he did leave Harry the money, but chances are, Harry won't be wanting it very much.

[The Lurker]

I definatly think that Harry will have all of Sirius' forune left to him. Harry is pretty much the only person Sirius cared for, so naturally he will be given most, if not all of his fortune. The only thing I can't think of going to harry is the house, which I'd guess would go to the Order.

[Tsar]

Another two possibilities:

1. The fortune would go to Tonks as she is Sirius Cousin.

2. The would be divided between Tonks, Lupin, and Harry.

[hermiones mum]

Could the money fall Narcissa's way and ultimately help Draco (sirius' aunt on his fathers side). Tonks is only Sirius 2nd cousin.

Will Harry get access to the Black vault and find some dark arts stuff to help /confuse him.

The friendship between Lupin and Sirius was strong so there could be a bequest to Lupin.

[Kosmic]

Bellatrix was a Black too wasn;t she? SIrius' cousin. Maybe if Sirius didn't get a say in it it could go to her aswell

[Cho Chang]

I think the estate will remain as it is. Does the ministry know Black is gone? There's no "corpse" so is it identify as missing? Since only the Order, Bellatrix and Harry knew right?

But if I have to say, the estate will go to Harry. (if Sirius had a will)

[Cat]

I hope he didn't leave all the silverware to Lupin...

[A.M.]

Black will have probably left Grimmauld Place to Dumbledore, as it was given to him as a place to safely hold the meetings.

The rest of Sirius's possesions and such I feel will go to Harry. He was obviously closest to Harry, and it would seem he would want to leave pretty much everything to him.

[You-Know-Who]

Technically speaking it could also go to the Weasley's, Black is related to them and the Weasley's do need money...

[Elangomatt]

I don't think the money at gringotts will be "left" to Harry. I am pretty sure that the money in vault 712 was Harry's all along. Basically I think that Harry's name was right below Sirius's name on the owner list, kindof the same way there can be two names on a checking account.

As far as the rest of Sirius's estate, what else is there besides the house and the money? I think the house will NOT be left to Harry, since Sirius hated the house so much, he would not want to leave such a burden onto Harry.

[Daily Propheter]

:lol: Cat!

Harry could quite possibly inherit the fortune, but there are also a lot of Sirius's relatives who would get something if Sirius didn't have a will - Narcissa for one.

[~BrandyTook~]

That's an interesting thought. I highly doubt Harry would want the money if it came to him. It would be profiting in a way from Sirius's death. And I really don't think he wants that. It would serve as a reminder of the person he lost. And as we've already seen, he doesn't want any more money than he already has.

[mimbletonia]

I don't think a will is left... but if there's a will left, sirius will leave all, 100% of his possessions to harry, no doubt.

[bubblesofdeath88]

Well , I doubt that there was a will. I doubt that anything would go to Bellatrix, seeing as she is an Azkaban escapee. So everything would either be left with Harry, Tonks, or Narcissa. Or it could all be divided to them all. We'll have to wait and see.

[MadMagic]

I hope Harry gets all of Blacks posessions. I would hate it if Narcissa and Bellatrix benefited from Sirius's death.

I don't know that Sirius' death will even be recognized though. According to the ministry he is a fugitive (hopefully he will be cleared) and there is no body to prove that he is dead. Unless they somehow have a way to tell that he fell behind the veil.

[Lestrange]

I remember there was this old thread in the Great Hall (which I won't link to, since my computer is malfunctioning on this site...) that talked about Sirius's vault, and what would happen if he died...and had given Harry everything.....And they said that Sirius probably had something really important in vault, like an object, not money....

Theres no way that Harry can't get Sirius's things, because......nobody knows he died, and the people that do either have the power to get it (in The Order), and the others who know that he is dead do not have the power to just waltz right into Gringotts and take it all, and plus, I really think that Harry Potter fans would begin to riot....(I know I would burn down things....).

...Anyway, there has to be something in that vault other than gold.

[Charmed]

Perhaps Lupin will be the "guardian" of Sirius's estate until Harry reaches a certain age. And then most likely in the 7th book we will see what is inside Sirius's vault.

[feeniks]

As long as it doesn't go to Bellatrix Lestrange (I mean why would it go to the person that killed him) or Narcissa.

[afortuna]

Narcissa stands the best chance of receiving the estate. Unless a will was left or a trust set-up for Harry, Narcissa wins it all. She's going to need it with Lucious going to jail and all. However will the Malfoy's survive?

[Tsar]

I know I posted this in another thread with a similar line of discussion but since that thread was closed. I thought I would re post it here so that others may see it

The assumption the Sirius Black did not have a will I find to be odd I would think when fighting someone like Voldemort. One would make a will. I believe that Sirius did in fact have a will. One that was made after the death of his brother Regulus and prior to his incarceration in Azkaban. especially if he believed that there was high probability that Voldemort would come after him to get to the Potters.


The house three possibilities of inheriting

1. Tonks as the Daughter of Sirius favorite cousin Andromeda
2. Arthur whom Sirius regards highly.
3. Or the Collective Order of the Phoenix

The fortune Three Possibilties

1. will be divided among Sirius remaining relatives including
Harry as his godson and Lupin.
2. will be given to the Weasleys and Tonks Alone
3. Will be entrusted to the Order with Lupin as trustee

I hope that the ring with the Black Family Crest and the Order of Merlin given to his Grandfather go to Tonks.

Since we know that Sirius had no love lost for Belliatrix or Narcissa give them the tapestry.

[TheSpacePope]

I don't think you have to worry about Narcissa and Bellatrix getting Sirius' things. As Bellatrix was the one who killed him(even if indirectly) and Narcissa was an accomplice to this murder, they both could easly be disqualified from any claim towards the estate.

[Virtuousdream]

Maybe they'll kill off Stubby Boardman and make him out to be Sirius that way the woman can give evidence he is in the clear and Sirius will be forgiven and accepted as dead...

Nah I'm going crazy ;)

Kingsley may make out a possible sighting of Sirius or bewitch someone to say they killed him, or something. if Harry get's the house I hope he gives Kreacher clothes :D

I can see them telling the near truth to be honest, that Sirius is good, he's been keeping an eye on Harry and turned up to fight and fell in the veil from Bellatrix's spell.

[Siriusly]

Maybe Sirius asked, or Tonks will volunteer, to be a surrogate godparent for Harry in Sirius's place. This makes sense to me since she is a relative, and a member of the OotP. There is also little doubt where Sirius's possesions would go to. I i wonder if Harry would even inhabit the house even if he did inherit it seeing as Sirius hated it so much.

[Tsar]

Well from the presence of Tonks, Lupin, and Moody along with Arthur and Molly at the train Station. It seems to me that Moody and Lupin and Tonks will assume the role of surrogate godparents.

[Picko]

I don't think there is any shortage of individuals who wish to play parental figures in Harry's life. I also think Harry will inherit everything of Sirius'.

[xicanti]

I think it would make sense for the money to go to him, depending on a few factors:

1) Did Sirius leave a will and, if so, will the Wizard Law Courts accept the testimony of those who were in the room at the time that Sirius actually is dead?

2) How does Wizard Law deal with criminials so far as monetary concerns go? Would Bellatrix or Narcissa still be elligible to inherit new funds given their criminal connections? I think it's safe to say that the wizarding courts don't strip criminals of their assets, since Sirius still had all his money and his house, but would they allow criminals to inherit or otherwise gain new money/property?

3) Assuming that the wizarding courts don't allow criminals new material gains, would Narcissa be considered a criminal on account of her proximity to her husband, or would she be innocent until proven guilty?

4) What sorts of inheritance clauses might Sirius' ancestors have written into their family fortune? Apparently it used to be quite common in old British families for a fortune to HAVE to travel down specific lines, regardless of the current holder's wishes.

[Gred and Forge]

4) What sorts of inheritance clauses might Sirius' ancestors have written into their family fortune? Apparently it used to be quite common in old British families for a fortune to HAVE to travel down specific lines, regardless of the current holder's wishes.

It does have to travel through specific blood lines. Sirius said so him self. It can only be inherited my some one with the surname of Black. Sirius said that he was the only Black left, so there are no more Black's that have the right to inherit it. Sirius probably had other ways of leaving a message to who he wanted to give everything if he died, besides a will (Since that's the muggle way, not the wizard way). I believe he left everything to Harry

[TheSpacePope]

Originally posted by xicanti (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=392458#post392458))

3) Assuming that the wizarding courts don't allow criminals new material gains, would Narcissa be considered a criminal on account of her proximity to her husband, or would she be innocent until proven guilty?



She would be considered an accessory to the break in and the death of Sirius, so they would have a case for exclusion of of her claim against the estate.

I think it boils down to this: Dumbledore can tell Fudge to do anything he wants at this point. So, Whatever remains of the black family fortune with Sirius will probably go to Harry(Remeber, Sirius' mom didn't like him, so she may have just given the money to anyone).

[AutumnCro]

Sirius became a legal guardian of Harry. This is recognized when he was able to give Harry permission to visit Hogsmeade. Generally, probate courts (assuming they work the same way in the wizard world) look to descendants before they look to parents, or grandparents. Since they're dead then the next option would be to look at aunts, uncles, or cousins. I think all of it would go to Harry...usually real estate and cash money aren't separated unless it has to be divided amonst heirs or it specifically says to in a will. I doubt that there would be a will to split up the estate.

[Amadeus]

I think Harry has enough money already....

[Tsar]

The question of Guardianship is interesting because given that Sirius had the ability to give permission to visit Hogsmeade clearly demonstrates his status as guardian

Given that Dursleys are unwilling guardians at best. I doubt that they would oppose custody being given to a member of Sirius Family

This leaves only four possibilities

Arthur Weasley
Nymphadora Tonks
Remus Lupin
Arabella Figg

[Weatherby]

I think Draco is more likely to inherit. He's related to the family.

[whizbang121]

Did Sirius have a will?

[erichrob7]

Its most likely that Narcissa and Bellatrix will not inherit the fortune if ther is anything other than the house. I do believe that because Sirus was some how related to the weasley's that he may have left some money in trust for Harry and the srest to our favourite redheaded family. I think he would not have left all his money to Harry because he was left James's fortune which I think is somehow connected to Godric Gryffindor himself. Sirus liked the Weasley's very much even if he wasn't liked by Molly much, and would like to see Harry's surogate family live more comfotably.

[Weatherby]

Sirius more than likely didn't keep the Black fortune. He was disinherited except for the estate and Kreacher.
Harry could get his other things but the fortune will go to Draco.

[whizbang121]

But he had access to money to buy the firebolt. And, I think he signed the Hogsmead permission slip as Harry's Godfather, not guardian. The Dursley's are his guardians. However, Sirius did mention that all the pureblood families are related, so maybe there is a connection to the Potters and Harry may inherit through his father. Heck, if Sirius family was full of Dark wizards, what's to say James' wasn't, too? They were just the black sheep who ended up in Gryffindor. Although, James parents were much more accepting of Sirius than his mother was. That must mean something. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...........

I think the only way Harry can inherit is if Sirius had a will. And isn't probable, that under the circumstances, that he did?

[HPGramp]

If there is anyone who deserves the money it is the Weasleys and both Arthur and Molly are, at least distantly, related.

[Prosperine]

So, do they? With Sirius dead, that means Harry is once again left in the care of the Dursleys. But as Sirius to him in PoA, the Potter's made Sirius Harry's legal guardian, not the Dursleys.

So who do you think Sirius would appoint to be harry's guardian? The weasleys? Lupin? And did he leave the house to Harry?

My reading group and I have been debating for awhile the pros/cons etc of every possible guardian for harry- please weigh in!! No, don't weigh the wands, weigh opinions! :p

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

I dont know Sirius would probably pick the weasleys as harrys new gardian. Mrs. Weasley is like a mother to harry. And Harry might have gotten Sirius's house ect ect. But Harry i dont think would want the house just give it to dumbledore. The house would bring back memories of sirius probably.

[Alastor D]

As we already saw in PoA, it's possible to make withdrawals from Sirius' vault in Harry's name. But that is of course no proof for a will in existense. Anyway, without a will Bellatrix and Narcissa would inherit. Or?
It's very likely that Sirius would have taken steps to prevent that.

[Lestrange]

Seeing as they are members of The Order, that they could die, it's likely that they have all made wills, especially people in Sirius's position, who would not want their closest relatives to profit from their death. There is already a thread about who Sirius's money and things will go to in this forum, though. :)

[DocHollidaywe]

I believe that they made some kind of will's, however I do not think Sirius named a guardian before his sudden unexpected death

[Picko]

Firstly the Dursley's are Harry's guardians until Voldemort is killed or Harry gets so powerful that no one could kill him anyway. Remember Harry's protection doesn't work unless the Dursley's are his guardians. Therefore Sirius had no say in who Harry's guardians are Dumbledore has already determined it some 14 years ago.

[Filia Tenebrarum]

This hinges on whether or not Sirius made a will. I think it likely that he did, he certainly had enough time stuck in the house. If so, he will probably have left it to Harry, or to the Order.

If not, then it would go to his next of kin. I'm not sure exactly who this would be. His parents and brother are dead, presumably also his grandparents otherwise they would still be living in the house. So his closest family are probably his cousins: Bellatrix, Andromeda and Narcissa. Assuming that muggle inheritance law applies, Bellatrix can't get Grimmauld Place, because one can't inherit by murdering someone. (If this law does not apply, then a very interesting and unpleasant situation might arise). Andromeda is dead (page 105.5: Sirius says "she _was_ my favourite cousin"), which leaves either Sirius's niece (Tonks) or his thrid cousin, Narcissa. Looking at the people who are likely to inherit the house otherwise, I really hope Sirius has made a will!

[Honeydukes]

Interesting, although IF the whole inheritance thing is in the hands of the ministry, do they actually KNOW about Grimauld place? Surely if they did it would have been searched when he escaped - maybe it was, I can't remember.

But if it is unknown, then hopefully the Order can carry on using it as they have been.

[Llopin]

In my opinion, they all should leave the place, leave it alone. It has become dangerous since Bellatrix has escaped, and she probably knows where's the house (and maybe even Narcissa). I think they should find another headquarters for the Order.

[Dedalus]

Nobody will inherit Grimmauld Place, since that's the street ... I guess you mean no. 12 Grimmauld Place :)

I don't think he would have made a will, because he's not the sort of person to plan ahead. And I doubt he ever thought he'd die so soon, even though it could have happened to any of them.

But nobody but the Order of the Phoenix (and the Weasley children and Harry) can even find the house of Black, so even if it was decided on the outside to be left to a relative of the Blacks, they won't get it since they won't find it. I doubt Tonks will want it.

I just think it'll be left abandoned except as the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix.

Originally posted by Llopin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427229#post427229))
In my opinion, they all should leave the place, leave it alone. It has become dangerous since Bellatrix has escaped, and she probably knows where's the house (and maybe even Narcissa). I think they should find another headquarters for the Order.

They can't find it, even if they knew where it was before. Dumbledore said that Kreacher never told them the whereabouts of the house, so it's still under protection of Dumbledore as the Secret Keeper.

[Winky_grawpy]

I read about the sixth book somewhere on the net and it says that Harry does inherit #12 Gimmauld Place

[Llopin]

Originally posted by Dedalus (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427246#post427246))
They can't find it, even if they knew where it was before. Dumbledore said that Kreacher never told them the whereabouts of the house, so it's still under protection of Dumbledore as the Secret Keeper.


Yes, but I thought that, Bellatrix, being of the Black family, may have some access or know the whereabouts of the house. And another thought, maybe Kreacher didn't tell them where was the house, but what if they followed him to the place?

I still think it's dangerous...

[Dedalus]

Originally posted by Llopin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427259#post427259))
Yes, but I thought that, Bellatrix, being of the Black family, may have some access or know the whereabouts of the house. And another thought, maybe Kreacher didn't tell them where was the house, but what if they followed him to the place?

I still think it's dangerous...

I'm not sure if that'd work, otherwise there'd be no point in Secret Keepers (if they can get the information by any other way). But if it would, then if they had, they would have attacked the place straight away. Since they didn't, we can guess that they don't know the headquarters whereabouts yet, and so it's still the safest place for the Order to be.

[Filia Tenebrarum]

And that's another question: what are they going to do with Kreacher? He's proved that he's a menace to them all; keeping him at the headquarters would be dangerous, setting him free even more so and Dumbledore would never allow them just to bump him off.
I'm half inclined to agree with Llopin, the house is a dangerous place. The attitudes and principles of the people who lived there for ages have sunk so deeply into it that even if they got rid of Kreacher, the house itself would still do it's utmost to betray them.

[**katie]

I think the Order should inherit it,but knowing Sirius, he probably left it to Harry.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Dedalus (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427246#post427246))
Nobody will inherit Grimmauld Place, since that's the street ...


Thank you for pointing that out Dedalus. Somebody had to...

[Mouthn of Merlin]

I think Harry will inherit the house, remember in the third book, Sirius got money out of his account with Harry's name. Since Harry's name is his the account, he probably left everything to Harry.

[Filia Tenebrarum]

quote:
Originally posted by Dedalus (original post)
Nobody will inherit Grimmauld Place, since that's the street ...
If you're going to get picky, then Grimmauld Place isn't a street, it's a square. :D

[Llopin]

Originally posted by Dedalus (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427270#post427270))
I'm not sure if that'd work, otherwise there'd be no point in Secret Keepers (if they can get the information by any other way). But if it would, then if they had, they would have attacked the place straight away. Since they didn't, we can guess that they don't know the headquarters whereabouts yet, and so it's still the safest place for the Order to be.


But what if they know where it is, but just act like if they didn't? I know I seem like a paranoic, but everything's possible. And personally I think the Order meetings should be made in Hogwarts, that must be the most safe place (altought the accessibilty is rather bad). Nevertheless, I also think they'll keep being there, even if it's dangerous. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[rotsiepots]

This topic is currently being discussed in this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11309) thread.

If you're ever unsure whether a topic has been discussed previously, please use the search (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php) function located at the top left-hand corner of your screen.

Thanks -- I'll merge these two now. :)

[Alorra Spinnet]

I think Harry will likely get the money that was left to Sirius by one of his uncles. Also, possibly, Sirius' own house. He did say he lived with the Potter's until he bought a place of his own. He obviously counldn't go back there as the Ministry would be watching it closely after he escaped.

[Dedalus]

Originally posted by Filia Tenebrarum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427323#post427323))
quote:
Originally posted by Dedalus (original post)
Nobody will inherit Grimmauld Place, since that's the street ...
If you're going to get picky, then Grimmauld Place isn't a street, it's a square. :D

Things can still be called a street, even if they aren't technically. My street is still a street even though it's called a road. Ah well, never mind - main point is that it isn't the name of the house but the place :lol:

[go_anna40]

Well, depends on his will, if he had one.
But, if he didn't make one before he died, well, I don't think it would go to Harry, because Harry's not exactly blood-related to Sirius.
I think it would either go to Tonks, since she's his cousin or Narcissa. Or even Bellatrix, but I doubt it because since she's a Death-Eater and at such a time, the MOM would not approve of it, and Bellatrix wouldn't dare claim it because she could get caught.
Maybe the Weasley's. I dunno.

[Alison]

I think Sirius had a will leaving everything to James, so Harry will get it as his next of kin.

[Ecthelion]

Maybe we should just ask Sirius' mom?! :D

Seriously, we don't even know if wizards leave wills. Anyways, I think if Sirius actually had the choice he would give it to Harry or the Weasley's. And considering he was able to afford a firebolt....he has quite a bit of money so he could split it between the two. Maybe he'll even donate it to the cause of the Order of the Phoenix. Thing is, I don't see a deciding factor in all of this, because to our knowledge, he didn't leave a will, although it is quite possible considering how many times he has undoubtably thought about death and almost come to terms with it on many occasions. Somehow I don't think that lineage will play a part in this one, even though it makes the most sense.

[Andromeda_Black]

If Sirius had a will it will all go to harry, no question. The intresting thing then would be Kreacher - would Harry be his master who he would be obliged to take orders from? Or would he refuse to aknowledge harry as he is not a member of the family?

If he did not have a will then I think it will go to Bellatrix, Narcissa or Tonks. I think they must be the closest relatives as they also had the surname 'Black'. Do we know which if the three sisters was the eldest (and would therefore inherit)? I remember Andromeda's name had been burnt of the tapestry and it was between the names "Narcissa" and "Bellatrix". That would imply that she was the middle sister but I cant remember which name came first. If it was Narcissa then Draco would be in line to inherit the estate!

[Raven]

I think a large chunk of the money ought to go to Lupin. The man needs it badly. The rest should go to the Weasleys.

Narcissa can have Kreacher...after his memory has been modified.

[Imperio! (Crucio!)]

wont bellatrix or some other blood relation of the black family. harry was only sirius' god son and doesnt have an drop of "black blood" in him. the weasleys are related to the blacks and it would be exellent for then to inherrit the fortune, as they are such wonderful people who have been through the worst of the worst. they deserve the money!

[DaN+EmMa]

i doubt he even has anything left to give harry =) but it would be nice though. Harry has so much though, with jame's fortune and all i think he was set for life.

[psychofan]

this is an interesting line of thought. i like the idea of the next book being a bit of a showdown between harry (or maybe the dursleys?) and narcissa and the rest of the malfoys fighting for the Black estate...

[seerius]

I agree with (can't remember who) but the person who said that Grimmauld place would be left with Dumbledore.

The Order of The Phoenix, i think,will all have a will, because their position is so dangerous, any of them could die. Blacks' another matter, i guess, because he's supposed to be on the run... but if he does have a will, i suppose he would leave a great deal to harry, out of affection, though, rather than need.

I'd like to see him leave something for Lupin, though, he's the most needy, i fyou want to put it that way....

[Tsar]

seerius I agree about the Order it would be foolish not have a will

[Arissya_00]

I don't know if wizards leave wills, but I think that Sirius's fortune would probably left to his relatives, and Bellatrix would definately not got it because she is wanted, and Narcissa, well, I don't know about her, her husband is in Azkaban, does that affect her? We have NO proof that Andromeda is dead, but assuming she is, there is then Tonks. So the most likely candidates would be Narcissa and Tonks. However, I think that Harry may also be able to get it.

[pineapple]

All of the Order should have left a will, it would be the sartest thing to do. They all know the risk they are putting themselves in, and should always be prepared for the worst. So, assuming that the people of the Order aren't dumb, and they do have wills, I would say that some of the Black fortune (if there is one...I think there is) if not all, would be left to Harry. However, would Black be given the fortune in the first place? Seeing as he was basically disowned by his mother, I'm not sure the fortune would fall to him.

There are Sirius' relatives to be considered, and Sirius would probably account for them as well, at least the ones he considered worthy of his will. However I think that the bulk of the fortune should go to Harry, because he's not rich enough already....;)

[Ms.Sirius]

Hmm, I hadn't even thought about the Black estate. Good point there Fate. I'd like to think that it would fall into "good" hands, and not to someone under Voldemorts power, but who knows. I also don't know if they will let it be known that Black is dead. The ministry didn't know he was hiding out with Dumbledore and all them did they??? And there is no evidence that he was fighting, no body or anything. So who knows, we may get a big surprise in the next book!!!
:ghost:

[Siriusly]

Narcissa has to be out because she helped (with Kreacher) set up the ambush at the MoM, and now that everyone is believing Dumbledore again, I am sure this will be known. Obviously Bellatrix is out (some criminals are stupid enough to be lured out of hiding to collect free tv's but she's not one of them). But I am not sure that it really needs to go to anyone, I mean no one knows Grimmauld place is the headquarters right now and it will probably just stay that way, and since nothing of Sirius' was passed on when he went to Azkaban for his life sentence, why would it be now? I am not sure it will be a big deal- "Hey Harry you get all of Sirius's stuff----Er OK make this the headquarters for the order of the phoenix and use the money to finance it. " It's not like Harry is going to start putting up Quidditch posters there, when he knows how much Sirius hated his family and being locked up in the house. I do like the idea of theree being something special, useful amongst Sirius' belongings though. I mean he did have that knife and the two way mirror- what else has he got?

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by Mouthn of Merlin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=427319#post427319))
I think Harry will inherit the house, remember in the third book, Sirius got money out of his account with Harry's name. Since Harry's name is his the account, he probably left everything to Harry.


Interesting point! If he put Harry's name on his estate, making Harry his heir, anything Sirius inherited would go to Harry. As Sirius was disinherited from his parents, it's unclear what exactly his estate includes. His own house was mentioned, as was the money from the sympathetic uncle. But, Kreacher, the Black house and any fortune left by Sirius' parents may not be included.

Would this make Harry the legal, if not the biological, heir of Dark Wizards? He keeps getting thrown into that mix, doesn't he?

[Thestrals]

If Sirus had the oppurtunity(sp) i bet he told Dumbledore to give it to harry and Lupin. Since Lupin has trouble getting a job being a werewolf and everything he could do with some gold.

[DogStar87]

I doubt Black ever did have the oppurtunity to tell Dumbledore. However, I agree he would have left his estate and money to Harry and maybe Lupin or perhaps some to Ron and Hermione too if he had the chance. The money, I'm sure of. The estate, not so sure. I bet he left Grimmauld Place to the Order...he did say it was the "most useful thing he could do."

Since he was always so frustrated how little he could do for the order, perhaps he left whatever he had left to the Order, if he did so by will. We know he inherited his money from his Uncle...and one think I'm pretty sure of is that it won't have to travel to another Black such as Bellatrix or Narcissa. Dumbledore could stop that from happening, I assume.

So either to Harry or the Order, whichever needs it most, and my guess would be the latter...

[paradoxpanda]

Well, Harry might get it, but it might come down to a fight between him and the Malfoys, and the Malfoys would be more than willing to bribe certain authorities if for no reason except that it would take something away from Harry.

[DogStar87]

I'd think Dumbledore would have "veto" power over giving it to the Malfoys however. And their power to bribe authorities has long gone since Voldemort has returned, the Ministry's got to listen to Dumbledore now.

[whizbang121]

Has Sirius name been cleared? Wouldn't this be an exercise in futility if the government claimed all his assets because he was an escaped prisoner.

[Mander]

Meh. I doubt Harry will get stuck with kreacher. harry's technically not part of the family. He isn't blood.

[Lestrange]

Originally posted by Mander (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=431413#post431413))
Meh. I doubt Harry will get stuck with kreacher. harry's technically not part of the family. He isn't blood.


If he does, though, I hope he brings back the old family traditon of beheading house-elfs when they get too old to carry tea trays. :p

I think that Harry will get everything, be angry because he doesn't want to benefit from Sirius's death, and give all the money to Lupin and the Weasleys. I can just imagine Dumbledore going through a lot of legal poo so that Narcissa and Bella don't get it, then Harry giving it to someone else.

[MadMagic]

Unless Sirius had a will (do wizards have wills), Harry probably won't get anything. It is true that Harry and Sirius were close, but I don't think that government cares about that kind of thing when dealing with an estate.

[Giggling Kat]

Some points:

1- Is there anything besides the house to leave? I would think any monies would have been long gone.
2 - As Sirius was a fugitive when he died, is there any legal standing to the will?
3 - Was there a will? Sirius struck me as the eat, drink and be merry kind. He knew Harry was taken care of. Besides letting Dumbledore use the house, he didn't seem to be thinking ahead.
4 - Even if the house is bequeathed to someone, will it show anywhere for courts to see it or is the Fidelus Spell binding on even legal documents?
5 - Sirius hated the house. Why leave it to Harry?
Given all those questions, I am guessing that anything left behind by Sirius is in the firm custody of the Order/DD. As such, Harry will be given his choice of personal effects.

Tangent... I've seen people on the board reference the money Harry's parents left him. How do we know it came from Harry's parents? I always assumed it was some sort of "Boy Who Lived Fund" held in trust by Gringotts. It was collected in the same way people donated after 9/11. If Harry was immediately removed from the public eye, all that outpouring had to go somewhere.

[jordmundt6]

No. That "Trust Fund' is not from admirerers. It's the Potter family fortune (or what's left of it). And Sirius had his own family vault which clearly had a boatload of galleons in it. That's how he paid for the Firebolt two years ago. If I had to guess who'd get the house, I'm thinking it'll probably be Andromeda Tonks or her daughter since they're the only legally recognized heirs left. Although, depending on how the slice the fortune, Molly might inherit a piece of it. You never know. Harry won't. He isn't related, there was no will.

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by Giggling Kat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=432274#post432274))
Some points:


Tangent... I've seen people on the board reference the money Harry's parents left him. How do we know it came from Harry's parents? I always assumed it was some sort of "Boy Who Lived Fund" held in trust by Gringotts. It was collected in the same way people donated after 9/11. If Harry was immediately removed from the public eye, all that outpouring had to go somewhere.


JKR said in an interview that James didn't need a good paying job to support his family because he was quite well off.

[FredRocksMySocks]

OOOOHH I like that...Harry inhereting the Black family fortune, not that he needs it, really, but inheriting certain things that Black might have had could prove useful. And could also console Harry about his death. And help Sirius be useful to the Order, still, even in death.

[dobbygirl]

It all boils down to one question:

Did Sirius leave a will or some other form of wizard document to specify who inherited the estate (both the house as well as any money) upon his death?

Sirius doesn't seem like the type who would. If wizard law is even close to muggle, then without a will, everything would go to the closest living relatives. This would probably be Bellatrix and Narcissa. Seeing as Bella is in no position to come and claim any inheritence, it would probably all go to Narcissa. Although, this is assuming that anyone but the Order can find 12 Grimmauld Place. The house is probably still under the protection of Dumbledore as Secret Keeper.

[siriusblack84]

If Lestrange gets the money I'll commit suicide! Or i'll use the crucio on her.....and I defenitely want it so much that it would work.....I hope that Harry or Lupin will get the money....Lupin definetely needs them!!!! Honestly I thought I was the only one wondering who's gonna get the money....

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by dobbygirl (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=435150#post435150))
It all boils down to one question:

Did Sirius leave a will or some other form of wizard document to specify who inherited the estate (both the house as well as any money) upon his death?

Sirius doesn't seem like the type who would. If wizard law is even close to muggle, then without a will, everything would go to the closest living relatives. This would probably be Bellatrix and Narcissa. Seeing as Bella is in no position to come and claim any inheritence, it would probably all go to Narcissa. Although, this is assuming that anyone but the Order can find 12 Grimmauld Place. The house is probably still under the protection of Dumbledore as Secret Keeper.


Isn't Tonks mother older than Narcissa? If so, she may inherit ahead of Narcissa.

[Gandalf_the_White]

Also the next issue is that no knows that Sirius is dead except the Order and Death Eaters. For all that anyone knows he is in a cave in Pakistan still hiding.

[whizbang121]

Good Point! So the order keeps the house because he's not officially dead. And the money...Perhaps Harry will be able to access it for the Order? It seemsp possible that Sirius put Harry name on his accounts.

(see above a page or so)

[ultimate sacrifice]

So, what are the British rules about these things if there is not a will. Does the estate go to the next of kin or to the government?

How did Lucious Malfoy recognize Sirius as a dog? Did he know Sirius was an Animagus? Do we know if Lucious Malfoy was at Hogwarts at the same time as the Mauraders? I just can't stomach the injustice if JKR writes this part as a Malfoy victory and they get the remainder of the Black Estate.

Also, what does the Great Great Grandfather - former Hogwarts Headmaster have to do with all of this, since he jumps from portrait to portrait? What if he has a protrait at Malfoy's house? Can he deviate from DD's confindence and do the "spy" thing? Can he advise DD or the ministry on inheritance issues from his portrait????

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by ultimate sacrifice (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=435706#post435706))

Also, what does the Great Great Grandfather - former Hogwarts Headmaster have to do with all of this, since he jumps from portrait to portrait? What if he has a protrait at Malfoy's house? Can he deviate from DD's confindence and do the "spy" thing?

I got the impression from a comment made by the portrait of Headmaster Dippet, that the portraits are bound to serve the current headmaster to the best of their abilities.

[Sinistra]

Kreacher said repeatedly thet Sirius was the last surviving member of the family, Narcissa and Bellatrix were cousins, related but not in the direct line.

It makes sense that Black would leave the House to Dumbledore (and the Order) and his monies (which had to be something to afford a firebolt) to Harry. But whoever gets the house is stuck with Kreacher.

What happens to a house elf whose family all dies? Kreacher is gone on Sirius' Mother's portrait, so he will try to stay, but what if Kreacher weren't so batty? What would become of him?

[Siriusly]

An heir is the person either designated by the decedent or the closest relative. A sibling may try to claim they are an heir closer than a child because they share 100% biology while children only share 50% but being a decendant often is a consideration as well. Since Sirius was Harry's godfather this doesn't really apply, however since Harry seems to already be named on Sirius' vault I think that Harry would be the designated heir. I don't really think this will be a very prominent issue. I can't see how is would enhance the story to have a legal fight over Sirius' money- unless the house has secrets we don't know about yet. Unless JKR needs an extra chapter, I can't see this really going to court- if Narcissa and other cousins didn't fight for it when Sirius went to Azkaban, I can't imagine that they would fight for it now.

[paradoxpanda]

They can't have a legal fight, can they? Sirius was still technically a fugitive, none of the authorities knew where he was. Maybe they found out after the fight, but since there was no body, I'm not sure.

[Thuldorn]

Ok I don't have my books near me but didn't wasn't something Mentioned in books 3 or 4 about James leaving Sirius legal guardianship of Harry in the event of his death?

[ultimate sacrifice]

It makes sense that if Sirius and James thought to plan ahead for Harry's future when Harry was an infant, then, I think that it is plausible that Sirius would have planned ahead for Harry if something happened to him. Sirius was a wild and crazy guy, but he was also smart.

[Raven]

Originally posted by Thuldorn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=437892#post437892))
Ok I don't have my books near me but didn't wasn't something Mentioned in books 3 or 4 about James leaving Sirius legal guardianship of Harry in the event of his death?


Yes, it does. Page, 379 of PoA:

"Well...your parents appointed me your guardian," Black said stiffly. "If anything happened to them..."

And in OotP, Molly Weasley (who had been acting as a defacto gaurdian) even acknowledges this, Its in the scene where Sirius, Ron, Hermione and Harry are talking about creating what would become the DA.

I think that it is plausible that Sirius would have planned ahead for Harry if something happened to him. Sirius was a wild and crazy guy, but he was also smart.

I'm sure he did. Which probably means that Molly Weasley and Remus Lupin now share gaurdianship of Harry.

Hey, I like that idea!

[Giggling Kat]

I like the idea of Molly and Remus sharing custody... can't you just see Uncle Vernon? From mass murderer to werewolf and a scene making witch... Wonder which one he prefers...

[FredRocksMySocks]

I like that idea veyr much as well! But I still think DD will make him stay at the Dursleys in the summer, for most of it anywho, and then he'll go to #12, so I don't see how they'd be a guardian technically, but it's still sweet. Harry is like sirius going to james's family with the weasly's. cute.

[Giggling Kat]

I don't know why it won't let me quote but thanks for the info on Harry's money! - This is why certain folks theorize Harry's a Griffyndor descendent?

[FredRocksMySocks]

people theorize harry's gryff's descendent because of money...I can't see that! Yes, we know James was unemployed cause he had a lot of money and didn't need to work, but since when did we mention that the founders were rich? I would have though that setting up hogwarts would be very costly, and it's not like they could make that much money off of the school, right? I dunno...

[whizbang121]

Okay, James was underemployed, not unemployed. We speculate he was gryffindor's heir because he and Lily lived in Godric's Hollow among other things. That and DD told Harry only a true Gryffindor could have used Godric's sword.

[FredRocksMySocks]

Yes, I know about the speculation, and excuse my misunderstanding about the whole employment issue, but still--where does money come into being the last remaining gryffindor? That part doesn't make sense to me at ALL. I am in support of harry being the heir, I never really doubted it, but I still don't see how money effects that...

[Arissya_00]

Me neither. What does money have to do with being the heir of Gryffindor? Shouldn't it be something more profound, like courage and loyalty?? And Kat, I totally like your idea of what uncle Vernon prefers. Now, he doesn't know that Lupin is a werewolf, but if he does, I can only imagine the look on his face....

[FredRocksMySocks]

ouch arissya! heh, he's already been through murderers, giants and mad eye! What do you think he's say about lupin!?

[whizbang121]

The money doesn't seem to have anything to do with being Gryffindor's heir. Maybe one heir or another married money somewhere along the way. But it's not relevent to being the heir.

[FredRocksMySocks]

ok, i thought i was missing some major important info lol! thanks for clearing that up, whiz!

[Siriusly]

Originally posted by Giggling Kat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=438861#post438861))
I like the idea of Molly and Remus sharing custody...


I LOVE this idea. Sirius knows that Harry has enough money so he can give his assets to the weasleys and Lupin, both who really need it, and they can help take care of Harry together. If the house of Black stays the headquarters, perhaps Lupin will be able to clean it all out of the portraits and such, and make strides turning Kreacher to good. How would kreacher like that, to have to serve a werewolf?

[haycheng]

I bet he did leave a will. after all, everyone should have as it is war. I expect the money go to lupin or harry. lupin is his best friend(the one that lelf) and harry is his son. I dont know about Kreadcher though.

[McKinnon02]

Assuming Sirius didn't blow the entire thing on Harry's firebolt, I'd have to say one of those people directly related to Sirius would get it. It'll probably be the Weasleys. That'd be a nice change! :)

[Raven]

I don't think Kreacher would serve Lupin. He's not a member of the Black Family. I say let the Malfoys have Kreacher...after his memory has been modified.

[whizbang121]

Do you suppose that when Lily and James made Sirius godfather and guardian should anything happen to them, that he put Harry's name on all his accounts at that time just in case? Troubled times, after all.

[Moonstone]

Do you suppose that when Lily and James made Sirius godfather and guardian should anything happen to them, that he put Harry's name on all his accounts at that time just in case? Troubled times, after all.

He may have. Didn't Sirius withdraw money from his own vault under Harry's name to buy the broom?

[lemondrop]

I would think that wizard's wills are more magical than muggle's wills. Maybe a magical will would know when its owner has died.

Regarding Sirius's fortune, Sirius's Uncle left it to him. If there weren't strings attached to the Uncle's will it would seem that Sirius could at least do, what his Uncle did, having some choice in who it went to.

The vault at Gringott's - assuming it is a high security vault (I am guessing due to the number) there is more than money in it.

I think Dumbledore will move the Order out of the 12GP because they still have to get in and out of there. The Kreature situation is too risky.
Also I agree with everyone saying Sirius hated 12GP why would he leave that to Harry.

[Giggling Kat]

Do you think Wizard Wills are anything like Howlers? Think about it. It's litterly going to be the last chance to tell people what they feel about them.

LOL - My grandpa would have mentioned people just to say "YOU GET NOTHING!"

[whizbang121]

:p Interesting thought. A howler of a will. I bet being a wizard attorney is a scary profession. I wonder what Mrs. Black's will would have sounded like. :eyebrows:

[jordmundt6]

Yeah, that would have been awful.

[Arissya_00]

Howler Wills? Interesting thought, though it hasn't been mentioned. However, no one can really prove Sirius is dead, I mean I know he is, but in the book, can they? Well, they probably can, since Fudge now listens to Dumbledore, and, yeah.

[Halfred]

I mean, Narcissa is Sirius' cousin and Draco was the last on Black Family Tree....Tonks is Sirius's cousin too though her name wasn't there....now that Sirius is "dead" Draco is kind of his heir, isn't he?
Well, what do u think?

Halfred

[firebolt2000]

No, I think Draco is the heir of the Black family, not Sirius.

[HPviolinist85]

I don't think he would ever want people like Draco being his heir. He was basically disowned by his family, why would he leave all of his money to people like Draco? Ew...

[Katie_Bell]

^ i agree. Even if he Physically is serius heir, I don't think that sirius would consider him as such.

[firebolt2000]

Eww is right, HP. Sirius would never want to give anything to any of the Malfoy's, and I don't think Draco is the heir of Sirius, however, possibly the heir of Mrs. Black or whoever started the Black family.

[Halfred]

I don't think Sirius has ever maden a testament,I mean, when someone doesn't make a testament (Muggle laws) everything this person had is of the closest relative.....I'm sure Sirius wouldn't give anything he owned to the Malfoys....


Halfred

[Jinxie Cat]

I hope Draco and the Malfoys get absolutely nothing of Sirius'. If Sirius did leave some kind of will, then I could see something going to Tonks perhaps, because she is his cousin. Maybe the Weasleys also, because Molly's his cousin too. But I could definitely see everything going to Harry because we all know Sirius cared about Harry "more than anything else in this world."

[Alastor D]

There is lots about this in a thread named 'Will harry inherit the Black fortune?'
Anyway we have one clue for the possibility that Sirius may have testamented his belongings to Harry. In GoF Sirius told the broom dealer to withdraw the money in Harry's name. Which means Harry must be marked as second user of Sirius' vault. But this is of course no proof for the existense of a testament.

[Severely Snapped]

I wonder who will inherit Buckbeak?

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

i was thinking about that too... im gonna figure hagrid. it would make sense.

[AProphet]

No, 'cause they are distantly blood related, Draco isn't Sirius son, and he doesn't carry the Black name.

[Expelliorma~]

Harry is Sirius's Godson...doesn't that make him Sirius's heir? :S

[Daveydee]

Assuming Sirius died intestate (without a will) neither Harry, Tonks nor Draco would inherit the Black fortune. It would go to Sirius's next of kin. His brother is dead, his father is dead and assuming his father's brother is dead that leaves his cousins of whom Bellatrix is the eldest. In legal terms she, therefore, would be regarded as Sirius's next of kin.

[Doggy]

Yes, just like Alastor D said, there's a thread like this already, here (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11309&highlight=Harry+inherit+Black+fortune) so this will probably be merged/closed soon.

[LionHeart14]

If all of Sirius' belongings and wealth goes to his murderer, Bellatrix, I'm going to be super mad. Perhaps, as a precaution for being in the order, Sirius will have made a will out. I really hope the house goes to the Weasleys, and also all the money. Harry doesn't really need it, so, I think that would be cool.

[DaN+EmMa]

draco isn't the heir because he is malfoy not black. technically he is a black but he has his father's last name and all so he's in his father's family tree not the blacks.

[firebolt2000]

I think Buckbeak might get executed, seeing he was supposed to be in PoA. If Lucius Malfoy finds out he is still around, and probably will, he will be sure to refer Buckbeak to the Disposal of Magical Creatures Committee.

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

how would lucius find out about buckbeak?

[Moonstone]

Lucius at the end of OotP was apparently in custody himself, so Buckbeak will be the least of his worries.

The Black family fortune and Sirius' own personal wealth (inherited from his uncle) may be two separate things. The Black family fortune and property could be entailed to pass to only family members, such as the Lestranges, Malfoys and Tonks. But Sirius's own property could likely be left to anyone he liked.

Kreacher remains the problem. Is he still bound to the house if all the family is dead? Is he property under magical law in the same sense as gold or furniture? Not that he would want to leave anyway, but his presence could be no end of trouble for the Order, as he does not have to take direction from them.

[firebolt2000]

I don't really know, but I sure hope Dumbledore gets a hold of Kreacher and fixes him up. I think after Lucius is out of custody he might have poor ol' Beaky executed.

[FredRocksMySocks]

hmm..i think he'll leave it up to DD, or DD will take matters into his own hands. he's good like that ;)

[Alastor D]

I doubt that Lucius will have any influence anymore. He's now definitely proven to be a Death Eater. I hope that Buckbeak will be brought back to Hogwarts forest. The MoM has more important things to do than hunt hippogriffs.

As we don't know what laws apply on inheritance in JKR's magical world, it's hard to tell what happens to Sirius' things if there is not a will.
In my country the only ones who can't be excluded by a testament are your own children. Siblings, nephews/nieces and cousins can. But I don't know about Britain.

[FredRocksMySocks]

i agree, now that the MoM has more important things to do, i think they'll probably just let a hippogriff go. and if they don't DD will step in, and i seriously doubt whether fudge is going to go against DD again in the near future. I think we're safe there :)
The thing I wonder about Sirius's things is whether there will be something important of blacks, more so than money and #12 grimmauld place, that there is to be inherited.

[Puffskein]

I'm wondering if we'll see Sirius's motorbike again. It was mentioned in OOTP (The Ministry of Magic chapter) so it could pop up again. It would be cool if Harry got it.

[tree guardian]

Sirius was not an idiot. Of course he left a will. How could he be in the Order of the Pheonix "knowing fully well the risks" he was taking, have a godson who he loved very much, know the type of "family" he has, have a high security vault, have all that free time, and not prepare a will?

Sirius is a Black. He has the bases covered. The only question is how did he cover the bases and why?

[PhoenixUK]

That's not quite true, Picko. Lily and James appointed Sirius as Harry's guardian, so officially he is his guardian. Harry only stays witht the Dursleys because he has protection and because Sirius was on the run/is dead. Hence Sirius must hand over his stewardship of Harry to someone else. However, I think that he might have a clause in his will leaving the decision to Dumbledore. Sirius almost certainly has a will as Lily and James must have had one to hand guardianship to Sirius and to leave their money to Harry.

[too_wicked]

I think Sirius wasn't able to make a will but I think he assigned someone to guide Harry if ever something happens to him. I think Sirius might assign Molly and ARthur or even Lupin (that would be good).

In terms of guardianship, Harry really doesn't need another guardian, if we're speaking of security matters. The ancient magic is still with the Dursleys and for sure, Voldemort can't touch him there.

But if we're talking about a mentor, someone like Sirius to Harry, then I think Sirius assigned Lupin to do the job for him if anything happens.

As for Sirius' riches, i hope the house goes to Harry. I really think the house will still remain the Order's official headquarters, though.

Barbara

[tree guardian]

Why wouldn't they leave wills? They are doing things that are very likely to draw life or death situations to them and maybe even their families. It is obvious to the readers that Order Members have given death and the care of their families consideration especially after such unfortunate events after the Mrs. Weasly's Woes fiasco.

I'd have to say yes, they do leave wills.

[XxSiriusxX]

I don't think Sirius left a will. I mean no ones sopose to know were he is so it wouldnt matter if they knew he was dead or not. The only people that have to decide this is the Order because they are the only ones who knew were he was and that he was inocent. I think that Sirius will of left the decision of who his gardian will be to Dumbledoor.

[JenJen]

I'm sure that Sirius would have left as much as he could to Harry - He had all that time at Grimmauld Place to write a will, so he might have one, but whether he has one or not, I'm sure the rest of the Order will make sure that Harry is well taken care of.

[Amylou]

I think Sirius left the house to Dumbledore to use for the Order and I think he entrusted Lupin to carry on mentorship. Sorry if i'm repeating what some have already posted. Maybe he also left him other items that could help in the defeat of Voldemort. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

[XxSiriusxX]

I don't think Sirius left a will. I mean no ones sopose to know were he is so it wouldnt matter if they knew he was dead or not. The only people that have to decide this is the Order because they are the only ones who knew were he was and that he was inocent. I think that Sirius will of left the decision of who his gardian will be to Dumbledoor.

[kfingers]

As much as Sirius is Harry's godfather, I have a feeling that Dumbledore has some custody over him. DD is always deciding where Harry goes next and why, and it seems like he would not have that authority unless it was somewhat up to him. I'm guessing DD has ultimate control over him as a guardian or Sirius would have had him come to the order earlier on in the last summer.

[tree guardian]

They might not try and keep Sirius's death a secret anymore now the box has been opened. Ya'know what I mean. And even if they kept it a secret publicly Harry could still be awarded privaliages privately.

[The Golden Snitch]

Whoever Sirius appoints as Harry's gaurdian is pretty much garaunteed as the next victim if book 6 follows the patterns. Every one he has had as his "legal" gaurdian have died so it would kinda be bad luck wouldnt it?

But hey, if its somebody from the order I would say Lupin, Tonks or the Weasleys. Tonks because I could see them developing an older sister-younger brother relationship type of thing.

[Godrics_Owl]

Sirius was never Harry's actual gaurdian, just his godfather, which was established before that fatefull night. I question whether Harry would have escaped the dursely's house even if Sirius had been cleared. Sirius never knew about the extra protection offered there, and could have roamed the neighborhood as a dog, to boot. After a month, Harry would then be able to visit Sirius instead of Ron. I certainly hope that Sirius had his paperwork in order and filed with the proper authorities. I'd rather the money go to Harry than the closest blood relatives.

[whizbang121]

Do we even know if there's any money left?

[Filia Tenebrarum]

I don't think Sirius would be careless enough to neglect to make a will. His close blood relations are so unlike him that I'm sure he would go to some lengths to make sure they didn't recieve his house, money or other posessions. It would be typical of Sirius to have left everything to Harry. It would be quite amusing for the Order to have to ask Harry's permission to carry on using Grimmauld Place (all right! Before anyone opens their mouth -- number twelve, Grimmauld Place!) as headquarters.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but what about Buckbeak? JK did say that Harry "may have another pet in future, but I won't say any more for now", which means Harry _will_ have another pet in future and this has some connection to a plot detail she didn't want to give away. Exactly where and how Harry would keep Buckbeak if he inherited him is an interesting problem; Buckbeak might end up right back where he started, being looked after by Hagrid.

[Siriusly]

Originally posted by Godrics_Owl (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=454082#post454082))
Sirius was never Harry's actual gaurdian, just his godfather, which was established before that fatefull night. I question whether Harry would have escaped the dursely's house even if Sirius had been cleared. Sirius never knew about the extra protection offered there, and could have roamed the neighborhood as a dog, to boot. After a month, Harry would then be able to visit Sirius instead of Ron. I certainly hope that Sirius had his paperwork in order and filed with the proper authorities. I'd rather the money go to Harry than the closest blood relatives.


In PoA Sirius told Harry that he was Harry's godfather and that he was appointed gaurdian if anything were to happen to the potters. This did not happen but it implied that the gaurdianship was official.

[Raven]

Sirius was Harry's gaurdian in the Magical World. Granted the Weasleys did most of the work, but that was because Sirius was in Azkaban, and later on the run.

[Witflick]

Originally posted by Filia Tenebrarum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=456489#post456489))
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but what about Buckbeak? JK did say that Harry "may have another pet in future, but I won't say any more for now", which means Harry _will_ have another pet in future and this has some connection to a plot detail she didn't want to give away. Exactly where and how Harry would keep Buckbeak if he inherited him is an interesting problem; Buckbeak might end up right back where he started, being looked after by Hagrid.

When I first read that, my instinctive thoughts were that Harry would have a snake. I don't know why, but that's my train of thought. I guess I could see Buckbeak as Harry's pet, though. He likes Harry and Harry could give him good care at Hogwarts.

Harry having a snake as a pet that spies on Voldemort for him would still be pretty darn cool, though. :)

[Raven]

Harry having a snake would be interesting, especially since he is a Parslemouth.

[Siriusly]

I always got the feeling that Harry would end up with Fawkes- I know this is off topic a bit but I don't see Harry taking on responsibility for Buckbeak. I can see Dumbledore dying, and Harry taking Fawkes at the end of the series.

Addition: I also wanted to mention that Sirius says that Kreacher is supposed to take orders from all Black family members but Kreacher still wouldn't take orders from Tonks. This would indicate that the Black family estate would have to go to biological family over Harry since Sirius didn't mention to Harry that Kreacher should take orders from him.

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by Siriusly (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=459320#post459320))
I always got the feeling that Harry would end up with Fawkes- I know this is off topic a bit but I don't see Harry taking on responsibility for Buckbeak. I can see Dumbledore dying, and Harry taking Fawkes at the end of the series.

Addition: I also wanted to mention that Sirius says that Kreacher is supposed to take orders from all Black family members but Kreacher still wouldn't take orders from Tonks. This would indicate that the Black family estate would have to go to biological family over Harry since Sirius didn't mention to Harry that Kreacher should take orders from him.


I agree entirely about Fawkes.
Interesting that Kreacher wouldn't take orders from Tonks, but would from Narcissa. Tonks' mother was presumably older than Narcissa, so Tonks would inherit before Mrs Malfoy. That's on the understanding that Bellatrix is an outlaw and can't inherit. Of course, Sirius was an outlaw. I'm not sure the ministry won't just add his assets to its coffers. (It would happen in my state.)
I like the idea that Sirius is still officially on the lam and Harry has access to his accounts. No lawyers, no probate. Everything is sorted out internally by the Order until the war is over, the dust settles and whoever is left can get what they have coming to them.

[ultimate sacrifice]

Good point about Kreacher not taking orders from Tonks but would from Narcissa. I wonder why he wasn't bound to follow Tonks orders but could follow Narcissa. Could this mean that House Elves have "Choice and Free Will" as well as humans? Can House Elves choose to be evil and follow the path of evil just as humans? I wonder if they have some kind of binding contract with their families or something?

[Siriusly]

I think it is obvious that house elves do have free will to a point. Dobby tried to hep Harry but punished himself for it. Kreacher followed direct orders but did not follow the rules of house elf enslavement. He hourded objects and chose Narcissa over Sirius, or at least over Tonks. I also think Kreacher was having some mental issues. he had been taking orders from a portrait and kissing trousers.

[ultimate sacrifice]

Ha, Good point about Kreachers mental issues! lol!

[inoLIKEmonkeys]

i dont think sirius left a will and i wonder if fudge will make it public that sirius was innocent, it would make him look like a bit of an idiot if he put an innocent man in azkaban for 12 years and then he broke out and made this HUGE manhunt thing, then blamed the breakouts of nine prisoners on him. So if eveything is made public and all the malfoys might try to get the property, if not it will probably go to harry, he was sirius's godchild after all, or mayby tonks, or the weaslys until harry comes of age

[swishandflick]

I think that Sirius left a will and that itll all go to Harry. I wonder if this will have any effect on the Fidelus Charm, however because it was probably Sirius who participated in the Charm so I guess it will have to be redone to include Harry. Even if the money goes to Harry I dont think that Sirius would have put who Harrys official gaurdian would be in his will since he probably thought that he would die after Harry bcs an adult. He probably told Lupin to take care of Harry on the way to the MoM since Lupin was the only one there who would have been suitable.

[Siriusly]

Originally posted by inoLIKEmonkeys (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=463695#post463695))
i dont think sirius left a will and i wonder if fudge will make it public that sirius was innocent, it would make him look like a bit of an idiot if he put an innocent man in azkaban for 12 years and then he broke out and made this HUGE manhunt thing, then blamed the breakouts of nine prisoners on him. So if eveything is made public and all the malfoys might try to get the property, if not it will probably go to harry, he was sirius's godchild after all, or mayby tonks, or the weaslys until harry comes of age


Assuming that Dumbledore is able to convince Fudge of everything that has happened, now would be a perfect time to exonerate Sirius. Fudge is going to have to warn people about Peter Pettigrew being a DE, and Fudge wasn't MoM when Sirius was convicted was he? Fudge can just play it off that Pettigrew fooled everyone.


Originally posted by swishandflick (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=463819#post463819))
I think that Sirius left a will and that itll all go to Harry. I wonder if this will have any effect on the Fidelus Charm, however because it was probably Sirius who participated in the Charm so I guess it will have to be redone to include Harry. Even if the money goes to Harry I dont think that Sirius would have put who Harrys official gaurdian would be in his will since he probably thought that he would die after Harry bcs an adult. He probably told Lupin to take care of Harry on the way to the MoM since Lupin was the only one there who would have been suitable.


Sirius did not end up being part of the Fidelius charm- Pettigrew did, and the charm was broken when Pettigrew betrayed the Potters. I do not know what charm Dumbledore used to protect Harry at the Dursleys but I do not think it was the Fidelius charm, it was somehting to do with blood relations.

Edit: I'm sorry, I didn't realize you meant on Grimmauld Place---was that a Fidelius charm too? I loaned out my book so I can't look it up? I thought it was protected by charms done long ago by Sirius' father. I know they did a charm so that only those informed about it by Dumbledore could enter, but even if that was the Fidelius charm, it was protecting the house, not Sirius and Dumbledore would have to be the secret keeper so grimmauld place should still be protected- even with Sirius gone....(bursts into tears)

[sindatur]

Siriusly, I think SwishandFlick was referring to the Fedelius charm on 12 Grimauld Place.

[Giggling Kat]

I can't find that they specify it's a Fidelius Charm on the Black House. It does have the same effect - it can't be seen by anyone walking outside and can't be located on any magical maps or tracking systems.

[swtevejade]

i dont anything will actually happen with sirius' fortune. it could all go to harry but i dont think it is significance enough to mention. harry has another inherit a fortune from his parents. it's not like he's in need of money.

[Siriusly]

Originally posted by Giggling Kat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=464509#post464509))
I can't find that they specify it's a Fidelius Charm on the Black House. It does have the same effect - it can't be seen by anyone walking outside and can't be located on any magical maps or tracking systems.



I still don't have my book back yet but now that I think about it the Fidelius Charm must have been used on 12 Grimmauld Place and the order. Narcissa and Bellatrix certainly must know where the house since Kreacher knows them both and acknowledges them as family. I think the house was protected from being mapped and seen the way Hogwarts is by Sirius' father but something at the end of the book that I just remembered was that Dumbledore said that since Kreacher was not the secret keeper he could not reveal to Narcissa about the order or the house, but that he was able to tell her other things---like how much Harry cared for Sirius. And that would make sense that Harry had to read the address written by Dumbledore in order to get into the house. So I guess that means that even though Bellatrix and Narcissa knew where the house was, they no longer had access to it because of the charm? And since Dumbledore is the secret keeper, it will stay protected.

[Duncanzits]

If Harry becomes Kreacher's new master after Sirius, what will he do? Will Harry order the elf to commit suicide? Dumbledore would not like that though. Dumbledore is not quick to dole out death and punishment. Anyone reminded of Gollum and Gandolf when it comes to Kreacher and Dumbledore?

[FreyaCrescent]

I think Harry would fulfil Kreacher's wish of having his head mounted on a plaque.

I wonder what'll happen to Kreacher.. assuming 12 Grimmauld Place will still be HQ, and they can't set him free... I guess Hermione could use him as a mannequin for her latest range of house-elf fashion.

[Alorra Spinnet]

Even if Sirius left his money and homes (remember he did have his own somewhere, not just 12 Grimmauld place) to Harry, I don't think Kreacher is part of the package. He would never listen to Harry.
In Fanastic Beasts and Where to Find them, it says that Newt Scamander originally worked in the office for House-Elf relocation. Now that the family that Kreacher is bound to serve has died out with Sirius,It was stated more than once that he was the last Black, that may be what happens. Question is where would he be relocated too? Would the commands that Sirius gave him still hold or are they Null and void with his death?

[Vicki]

I'm not sure what they're going to do with Kreacher now to be honest. I don't think he'll have inherited him because as Alorra says, he'd never listen to Harry. Wouldn't he just continue not taking any orders other than from Sirius' mother's portrait? It doesn't matter if the Order's there. He did that when Sirius was in hiding.

[Sirius Padfoot]

I don't think Harry will want anything to do with Kreacher. Mainly because of his involvement in Sirius death. Kreacher knows to much about the Order. He will probably stay at Grimmauld place with the order or get his wish to have his head mounted with the rest of his family. Do you think Harry told Hermione about Kreachers involvement the night Sirius died??

[MalfoyIsMINE]

Hmmm...I am not quite sure if Harry would have told Hermione, but I think we will find out in the upcoming books...If Hermione still was nice to Kreacher, the she probable doesnt know...

I would hope that Harry would order Kreacher to commit suicide, like Duncazits said...or maybe they would lock him away somewhere! who knows? Only JKR can tell

[Mutant for Hire]

It has been hinted that while memory charms to plant fake memories can be broken, memory charms to erase memories are more permanent. Voldemort was able to break a memory charm, but St. Mungos has not been able to do anything for Lockeheart's erased memories.

Dumbledore is not one to arbitrarily execute a House Elf, even one as twisted and malign as Kreacher. I think in the end he will decide the best thing to do is to use a memory charm and erase most of Kreacher's memories concerning the last year and then send him off to the Malofys. If any House Elf is brought in, it will be Dobby.

[Ecthelion]

It has been hinted that while memory charms to plant fake memories can be broken, memory charms to erase memories are more permanent. Voldemort was able to break a memory charm, but St. Mungos has not been able to do anything for Lockeheart's erased memories.

Dumbledore is not one to arbitrarily execute a House Elf, even one as twisted and malign as Kreacher. I think in the end he will decide the best thing to do is to use a memory charm and erase most of Kreacher's memories concerning the last year and then send him off to the Malofys. If any House Elf is brought in, it will be Dobby.

This seems highly plausible to me since Dumbledore is extremely forgiving and thoughtful, but won't take unneccesary chances. "Modifying" Kreacher's memory and sending him to the Malfoy's, is where he would be exultant that he is finally serving a "respectable" wizarding house. This seems characteristically true of Dumbledore. Good theory.

[LionHeart14]

Well we can all hope that Kreacher is flattened by the Knight Bus. However, I doubt that will happen. Sirius was not the only remaining member of the Black family - remember Narcissa his cousin? I think Kreacher will go to the Malfoy house, since they no longer have a House Elf. He won't be able to tell them where the OotP HQ is because of the Fidelis Charm that Dumbledore put on it. (I think it was Dumbledore?)

Also, yes, Duncanzits, there is a definite connection between Dumbledore and Kreachers relationship to the relationship between Gandalf and Gollum. Perhaps we will find more connections between the two as the series comes to a close. *cries*

[DumbledoreTheWise]

Well, Kreacher could go to the Malfoy's.But don't forget, Tonks is Sirius's second cousin as well. He may be forced to stay at Grimmauld Place. Maybe Sirius's money and estates go to Lupin? Harry doesn't need the gold........Lupin could use it though, the poor guy.
But I think it's safe to say Harry would not hesitate in strangling Kreacher....atleast for a little while...........
Harry killing Kreacher? I don't know if Harry is capable of killing. But for that little :censored: , who knows?

But remember what Dumbledore said: "Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards......"

[Siriusly]

I think Kreacher will stay at the house and perhaps have to start listening to Tonks. Maybe Tonks will even move in. I don't see how Narcissa could end up with him, especially since it was on her orders that Kreacher helped set up Harry to go to the MoM. I don't know why she wasn't arrested along with Lucius.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Kreacher probably wouldn't honor the idea of Harry as his master. Even if the Potters and Blacks were closely related, Harry's halfblood status probably doesn't make him enough of a member of the family in Kreacher's eyes. Same with Tonks. If that happened, Kreacher would most likely run off to Narcissa or Bellatrix.

Besides, if Harry did get him, Hermione would almost certainly demand he be set free, and then he'd be able to serve Bellatrix or Narcissa anyway.

[purplehawk]

Why not dispatch Kreacher to Hogwarts, with or without a memory charm? Get him completely away from that horrible hag's portrait and the evil feelings of that house?

I realize Winky's relocation didn't exactly go smoothly, but she does work when she isn't drunk! And Kreacher couldn't do anything harmful to the order from Hogwarts, particularly under the present charm.

[Siriusly_Addicted]

"Why not dispatch Kreacher to Hogwarts, with or without a memory charm? Get him completely away from that horrible hag's portrait and the evil feelings of that house?

I realize Winky's relocation didn't exactly go smoothly, but she does work when she isn't drunk! And Kreacher couldn't do anything harmful to the order from Hogwarts, particularly under the present charm."

But what's to stop him taking up with Draco Malfoy (also a decendent of the Black family) and the other Slytherins the way Dobby has taken up with Harry (which started back when Dobby was bound to the Malfoy family)?

Of course, relocation to Hogwarts would put Kreacher within arms reach of Dobby, which is one of my favorite scenarios - although I must say that I also like the flattened-by-the-Knight-Bus idea. Dobby could make Kreacher tow the line, I expect. Hopefully, with as much pain and suffering as possible.

[Siriusly]

I really think Kreacher is going to stay at Grimmauld place. He has proven too dangerous to do anything else with him, and even Hermione wouldn't want to free him once she finds out what he did. Sirius said he wasn't taking orders from Tonks but I really think that she will order him to stay and ultimately he will have to follow. After all, he was only able to leave the house because he convoluted the order "Get out" from Sirius.

[Weatherby]

I've merged the thread on Harry inheriting Kreature with this thread since it's also about whose the rightful heir to Sirius. :)

I don't think Harry will inherit Kreature as he's not related by blood to the Black family. It's possible he'll get some of his belongings though.

[Hammi]

I think that Harry will get Sirius's home and things but no Kreacher. I think he will go bny his free will to the Malfoys. He is no longer obligated to the order being that Sirius is dead.

[dobby_rocks]

I think that Harry will get Sirius's home and things but no Kreacher. I think he will go bny his free will to the Malfoys. He is no longer obligated to the order being that Sirius is dead.
Well i dont know why Harry would want Siruis house knowing that he didnt even like it. Kreacher will most likely end up staying with a meember of the black family. I mean we have Narssica, Belle, Tonks(but he dosent listn to her cause she isnt on the family tree, however he did listen to fred and geroge and they arent on the tree but prehaps it was due to the twins being Pureblood), Draco, who are it seems to be the close blood relatives.

DD said Narssica was the only one he had respect for left. even if he left i dont think he can blab things he has heard and stuff despite Siruis's demise

I think he will acutally stay at Grimauld Place, it might be toughe but SIruis death does not lie soley on Kreachers shoulders,not that he would care but the order, Kreacher would want to stay with his mistress

I must add i do hope Lupin gets some of Siruis things lord knows he could use it more then harry

[NANEL]

Harry will probably get it after he gets out of school. The Order of Phenoix may change safe houses between book five and book six

[whizbang121]

Tonks(but he dosent listn to her cause she isnt on the family tree, however he did listen to fred and geroge and they arent on the tree but prehaps it was due to the twins being Pureblood),

Interesting. Do you remember an incident when Kreacher obeyed Fred and George? I'm trying to figure out how Dobby managed to go to Harry in CoS. He belonged to the Malfoys. If the Weasleys are related closely enough to give orders to their house elves, perhaps one of the Weasleys sent Dobby to Harry.

What if Regulus is alive? What if everyone said he was dead to hide him from Voldemort and his family? Not to mention the Death Eaters.

[Raven]

Dobby seems to be an exception to many House Elf Rules. It wouldn't surprise me if he took an extremely liberal interpretation to some order that the Malfoys made, and that's how he managed to leave the Malfoys and go to the Dursleys.

Edited because of a glaring error. Thanks jordmundt!

[jordmundt6]

Potters? you mean Dursleys? I think they just never made an edict about his movements because they didn't care. They didn't tell him to get out, they just didn't restrict him. And he made the bold move to break an implicit command without verbal secondary information either way. He took a much bigger gamble than Kreacher did with much bigger consequences.

[Siriusly_Addicted]

I think #12 will remain with the Order for now, and then either Lupin or Harry will inherit it (if they survive the series). I think Lupin and Harry will split whatever gold is left over, mainly because I think Sirius would be afraid of injuring Lupin's pride by leaving him all the money (unless there isn't much left). Anything that cannot leave the Black family will probably go to Tonks, unless Regulus shows up. He can probably claim the house and property, but likely not (all) the money.

I think Kreacher will stay in the house, not because he can't bring himself to leave but because Narcissa Malfoy, from whom he now (apparently) takes orders, will leave him there as a spy. Sirius isn't around to order him not to repeat what he hears, so Narcissa's orders to tell her everything Kreacher discovers will take priority. Again, that's unless Regulus turns up and throws a wrench into the works.

I'm not saying Regulus is alive, and I don't want to get into that here because there's a whole thread on it. I'm just mentioning it as a remote possibility to cover all my bases. :D

EDIT: Anything Sirius had that belonged to James and/or Lily will, of course, go to Harry. Sirius may have salvaged something from the Potter's house, after all, and we don't know what's in his Gringott's vault.

[naimah]

i think that tonks,bellatrix, and narcissa have to split it up. well bellatriz probably wont get anyhing but narcissa and tonks probably would. if sirius does have a will then he will give his things o the weasleys,harry and remus