CoSForums Archive - Was POA pointless?

Cat

June 23rd, 2003, 5:46 pm

No. I always said that Sirius Black couldn't die, because it would make Prisoner of Azkaban pointless, but I don't believe that anymore. Sirius was introduced and he was met. He gave Harry hope. You can't say that his quick death made it pointless to have been created at all. Sad that he died... glad that he existed. That's how it is.

Also, Lupin and Pettigrew were introduced, along with a whole history behind the lot of them.

Jaredd

June 23rd, 2003, 5:50 pm

Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388925#post388925))
No. I always said that Sirius Black couldn't die, because it would make Prisoner of Azkaban pointless, but I don't believe that anymore. Sirius was introduced and he was met. He gave Harry hope. You can't say that his quick death made it pointless to have been created at all. Sad that he died... glad that he existed. That's how it is.

Also, Lupin and Pettigrew were introduced, along with a whole history behind the lot of them.

Don't forget Trelawney. Not only was she introduced in PoA, but her second prediction established her credibility before they introduced THE PROPHECY..............

talullah

June 23rd, 2003, 5:50 pm

JKR says he's absolutely dead but you know what... we had a "dead pool" at my office and (I am ashamed to say I won) we all agreed going into it that his death would move the plot forward where Harry was concerned. We also thought Mrs. Weasly's death would move the plot forward with the most Characters (bringing all of the Weasley's back into the picture from all over the world) but she did that without killing Molly...

Right now, its overkill in my opinion but my opinion changes as I discuss it with others. I think right now we all feel a little violated! LOL! Hang in there!

crafty girl

June 23rd, 2003, 5:54 pm

Sirius is dead, but I still think he's going to be important to the story somehow. Otherwise it would be fairly pointless. Also, why would it be so necessary for him to die if it wasn't going to affect the story again? Harry's already experienced enough loss not to need loss-for-loss's-sake.

Raven

June 23rd, 2003, 6:14 pm

His memory will be important.

Plus it will affect future books. He may not want to be too close to Molly or Dumbledore.

Aldawen

June 23rd, 2003, 6:20 pm

Originally posted by Daveydee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388910#post388910))
PoA in addition to being an excellent book now has one further use.

Suffering with OotP induced depression? Take a healthy dose of PoA for that feelgood relief.

Great idea! But I think at this point it would just make me feel worse. I would probably burst into tears every time Sirius was mentioned.

I don't think PoA was pointless; Harry had Sirius as a parental figure for a little while, and Harry really needed him in the fourth book. Now that he is getting older though, he won't need adults as much. PoA is probably the only feel-good book in the series (well, that and SS). We got introduced to the whole plot of the story in that book. The first two were very similar, but neither one of them started off the main story line. PoA has no Voldemort confrontation, and it ends badly, like GoF and OotP.

In a final note, I would like to say that OotP has convinced me to not see the PoA movie. Don't ask why, I just have no desire to see it anymore.

Uthr Rhain

June 23rd, 2003, 6:22 pm

I've got to agree with many here. With out PoA there are things in GoF that we wouldn't understand (wormtail) and we wouldn't have a clue about Lupin in OotP.

While it is definately sad to lose Padfoot we must take solice that we will have Moony. There is a reason for all things and time will show us what the reason is if we are patient.

hermownninny

June 23rd, 2003, 6:24 pm

I think it was crucial...book 3 tells for the first time about divination and the second prphecy of Professor T, and how there was another prophecy that was correct...I think the book acomplished what it was supposed to do: give us more insides to the past, the magical world (dementors and creatures), and it kept us waiting to know what was coming nex!!

Avalon

June 23rd, 2003, 7:44 pm

Originally posted by crafty girl (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=388959#post388959))
Sirius is dead, but I still think he's going to be important to the story somehow. Otherwise it would be fairly pointless. Also, why would it be so necessary for him to die if it wasn't going to affect the story again? Harry's already experienced enough loss not to need loss-for-loss's-sake.

He'll be back, not alive though, but Harry will probably talk to him through the veil in the room with the archway. Didn't JKR mention not seeing a live Lily and James? Maybe this is how she can bring them into contact with Harry without raising the dead.
All is not lost, Sirius will be back :clappy:

Virtuousdream

June 23rd, 2003, 7:52 pm

Poa wasn't pointless, the reasons you have said above. Yet, I don't think I'll be seeing PoA. If I go I will cry all through it. Also, by saving Black there, it saved him from a fate worse than death, the kiss. Sirius' soul can at least join James again, and hopefully see Harry again.

Dreamprincess288

June 23rd, 2003, 8:44 pm

Thanks for the posts... I was so depressed when I started this thread, I just needed some people to post some good points about his memory and the importance of POA... now I probably won't start crying everytime I reread a part in the books with Sirius in it, at least I'll be able to think of all you good things you all mentioned. Thanks, this really helped :D

Jaenelle

June 23rd, 2003, 9:36 pm

PoA is probably most people's favorite (I would never presume to say it is everyone's). We meet more than just Sirius, as has been mentioned before. Harry learns the Patronus Charm (stags are mythologically the enemy of serpents) to fend off Dementors. He meets Lupin (another father figure) and learns about racism in the wizarding world. He learns about secrets - ones that should be kept and ones that should not be kept.
True it was a little dark at times, but looking in retrospect, it was the last light in the series to date.

daniel4hp

June 23rd, 2003, 10:10 pm

Sirius was important, even if he did ultimately die. I don't think that you can say that simply because a character ended up dead that they served no purpose. Sirius, as well as Lupin, provided a connection to his father's generation. Sirius, being his godfather, was a father-figure to Harry throughout books 4 and 5. Sirius affected Harry in many ways, even thought he did die at the end of book 5. In many ways, its just like real life; people come into our lives and help us along, and even though they don't last forever, they still made a big impact. I think the presence of Sirius in books 3, 4, and 5 was very important, and helped make the books more realistic.

FatalBeauty

June 24th, 2003, 2:21 am

I think PoA was extremely important! We found out all about the Marauders, found out that Wormtail was a cowardly traitor, and Harry experienced his first real bit of anger. I think the fact that Harry's father figure died is really important because he will have to deal with a lot of grief, and it will make him stronger. It's going to make him hate Voldemort and his followers a hundred times more, which will be important, as Harry will need that anger to be able to finally kill Voldemort at the end of the 7th book.

Charmed

June 24th, 2003, 2:43 am

Prisoner of Azkaban was important, no questions asked. We learnt not only of Sirius but of the Marauders.
Sirius's death will be Harry's driving force to bring down Voldemort. To be the one who comes out on top.

Cat

June 24th, 2003, 3:49 am

Originally posted by Dreamprincess288 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=389638#post389638))
Thanks for the posts... I was so depressed when I started this thread, I just needed some people to post some good points about his memory and the importance of POA... now I probably won't start crying everytime I reread a part in the books with Sirius in it, at least I'll be able to think of all you good things you all mentioned. Thanks, this really helped :D

Can I tell you the thought that makes me feel better?

Sirius is only really gone and dead to Harry and the rest of the characters. To us he is perpetual. He's everlasting Phoenix Man. Do you want me to show you how? Open Prisoner of Azkaban and watch him spring to life. He's walking, talking, transforming... in Prisoner of Azkaban he has not died. You can read Prisoner of Azkaban whenever you feel like. For a short while you may not be able to get Order of the Phoenix out of your head, but after a while, re-reading the books is like going back in time. It was after I had finished Goblet of Fire. Once you emerse yourself, it's difficult to think what you know happens in the future. The back of Quirrel's head will always shock us, the fate of Lockhart will always satisfy us, when Harry catches the snitch and wins the cup we will always be cheery and the events in the graveyard after Harry and Cedric travel there will always be scary and exciting. Sirius will always be there as long as the fan likes to go back in time every now and then.

Ooh, and he's in Goblet too.

DocHollidaywe

June 24th, 2003, 4:03 am

It was important because it gave us that hope of getting rid of the Dursleys, and a Father like figure. And now we are shown that once again Harry's fatherlike figure was taken away from him

MadMagic

June 24th, 2003, 4:08 am

It was important. The prophesy was introduced to us in PoA. Also we got our first concrete evidence that Voldemort was returning, as Pettigrew escaped and was free to return to him.

Although I am devastated that Sirius was the one that had to die, I don't think that it makes PoA pointless at all. So much awesome stuff happened in it. The mauraders were introduced, Pettigrew/scabbars, Harry is first discredited with the ministry, the dementors, and so much more.

AggroSkater99

June 24th, 2003, 4:18 am

hehehe. in my opinion, that was only ONE of the major points. cause now sirius is dead, i seriously believe that voldemort will take full advantage of this and weaken his mind with gruesome repeats of his death.

but the other point had to do with pettigrew and i find it sad that none of my family found him important. anyway, harry saved pettegrews life. it created a bond. a bond that in my opinion will help harry destroy voldy in the last book.

Aelurus13

June 24th, 2003, 4:30 am

I loved Sirius like the next and once I get off I will go read PoA. But in the mean time I think it is justifiable that Sirius died. He was a prisoner inside of a house that he ran away from. And even though his death was tragic, it does not denote that PoA was insanely important. Lupin will always be needed and Trelawny, no matter how annoying was slighty useful. Remember that James memory was preserved in the map. Along with the rest of them. Maybe it can work like Tom's old diary, reply when written to.

SiriuslyBria

June 24th, 2003, 4:49 am

As most in here have said, I do not think that Sirius's death makes POA pointless. Even though Sirius is gone, there is still Lupin and Pettigrew in the series, both of whom I think are cruical to the plot. Harry also became strong in POA and learned more that will help him in fighting against Voldemort. The thrid book/year was NOT a waste at all.

Yavanna

June 24th, 2003, 5:16 am

POA showed how quickly Harry's moods can change over things, and how he is not always the strong brave person. Remember how bad he wanted to kill Black?? There was so much in POA that it could never be pointless, and Black brought a lot to these novels, information, history, and a great effect on Harry, even if he ended up dying.

Jedi Potter

June 24th, 2003, 5:25 am

I agree too much happened in POA to discredit that novel, it was very important. Also as far as the movie, I am not worried about seeing it and getting upset he is still alive at that point in the films so it won't bother me because his death really hasn't happened yet in the films so it should diminsh the film, if you get what I am saying. Plus who knows they may never get to OOTP :p

dumbleedore

June 29th, 2003, 11:31 am

PoA will still be important, as it proved Sirius innocent and many still believe he is guilty. Harry will be trying to prove that he wasn't a murderer now.

R3mus Lup!n

June 29th, 2003, 11:41 am

Well ,i think PoA is really important. It is the book that things start to get dark.A little scary at times.Withought PoA ,we would still be thinking that Sirius was a murderer and Peter was innocent.The dementors were also introduced.He also gets more detail about how his parents died.

And Most importantly!!!!!!!!!! REMUS LUPIN WAS INTRODUCED!!!!!!!!!
:elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh: :elaugh:

vagos

June 29th, 2003, 11:44 am

yes.and it was a great story!:D:D:D

where are the signature rules?

vickygirl4

June 29th, 2003, 12:28 pm

It is important because HArry needed that parental figure (if only for a little while). This way he found out more about his parents and about how they died. It also introduced a lot of other key characters (i.e. Lupin and Wormtail)

rotsiepots

June 29th, 2003, 1:07 pm

Without PoA, Wormtail would never have scurried back to his master and there would be no GoF, OotP and so on.

PoA is possibly the most crucial book of the series.

Weatherby

July 13th, 2003, 1:59 pm

I don't really understand how PoA could ever be counted as pointless nor the other books. It's a series.

There's many characters and themes in the book and not just Sirius.
But the fact that he died didn't mean he wasn't crucial to the story past or present.
Lily and James have been dead since the first page of SS and they are still very much important.

Puffskein

July 13th, 2003, 2:41 pm

Absolutely right Weatherby! We may have seen the last of Sirius (I think he really is dead) but there's still plenty we might find out about him. That's as well as the huge plot advancement in POA.

A thought: "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

LESTRANGEMUSTDIE

July 13th, 2003, 2:43 pm

book three established the fact that voldemort will indeed rise again. pettigrew escaped to rejoin his master, as trelawney's prediction said, and help him to return. that is huge in the big sceme of things. it also varifies that time travel in the wizarding world is possible. not to mention the "bond" between harry and wormtail.

shawntat

July 13th, 2003, 3:05 pm

I agree that POA is a very important book. I also agree with what Cat has been saying throught this thread.

FredRocksMySocks

July 13th, 2003, 3:25 pm

Everybody has pretty much said what needed to be said, but I wanna put my two cents in anywho.
yeah!
lol, no, really, i think it is one of the key books (and my fave at that) because it brings forth wonderful characters, shows harry's strength, establishes the whole bit with wormtail in debt to harry (which I am sure will come in to play later) and, of course, trelawny's 2nd prediction.
So, yeah...I don't think any of the books are 'pointless', all have things that are vital to the story. And even if you don't think so--they are all wonderful reads!

Nebulosa

July 13th, 2003, 3:47 pm

yeah Siriu's death will either break Harry of save him...

how is it possible that a fictional character's death make us so sad? :'(

Amylou

July 13th, 2003, 4:46 pm

It was very important. Harry learned about the dementors, what it felt like to be around them, how to overcome them by creating a Patronus. It also set up a relationship between he and Sirius which made Sirius' death so emotional.

Arissya_00

July 13th, 2003, 5:26 pm

How could you say it was pointless? It was very crucial to the plot. Alot of new characters were introduced, Harry learned about the past, and alot of things would have never happened in future books if it weren't for PoA!

harripottrfreek

June 24th, 2004, 4:54 am

No, I dont think PoA was pointless...Harry learned a lot about his father and his friends. He also learned a lot about his parents' deaths...he learned about the Dementors and other characters that would become significant later on besides Sirius (Lupin and Wormtail). Along with the Dementors he found out how to fight them which he needed in book 5...PoA was not pointless in any way even though the main point has been killed off in book 5.

Chazzwazzer

June 24th, 2004, 6:59 am

PoA in addition to being an excellent book now has one further use.

Suffering with OotP induced depression? Take a healthy dose of PoA for that feelgood relief.

I hear that!

Chazzwazzer

June 24th, 2004, 7:07 am

It's like saying, if Harry dies in book 7, the whole series was pointless.

NiCk RiDdLe

June 24th, 2004, 7:23 am

Of course PoA had a point! Lol sorry I just got a little mad when I read the topic. I mean really think about what your asking. Harry got the Maurders Map *sp?*, he learned about the betrayl, met Sirius who actually gave him hope, met Lupin, met Trewlway *sp?* and a bunch of other stuff.

tonks181

June 24th, 2004, 9:15 am

of course PoA is not pointless.for one thing it wasn't all about sirius alone. it caused a major shift of trend. it was essential for laying the foundation of the story that was to follow. and since love is supposed to be the weapon harry's going to wield, wasn't it imperative that somebody,who he'd come to love as a father-figure and a friend at the same time,die , so that he could really come to understand the power of love?

RJBradbrook

June 24th, 2004, 10:00 am

just because siruis is no longer alive doesn't mean he has no point. he gave harry hope. i parent figure that he had lacked his whole life. i also doubt whether sirius is completely gone. i'm sure he'll greatly effect the story later. even it's only harry grief that leads him to do something. it also gives harry the chance to really hate Voldemort. sure he killed harry's parents but harry doesn't remember them. killing sirius is a real loss. he now fully understands the evil that Voldemort incites.

DarkThunder

June 24th, 2004, 1:37 pm

Hmm, LETS SEE...

If Sirius had never been rescued, Harry never would have confided in him so many times. Plus he wouldnt have been able to help him in the DoM

bubblesarah

June 24th, 2004, 1:42 pm

No it wasn't in fact It is considered JK's best novel so shush!

glugunkwen

June 24th, 2004, 2:41 pm

I agree with most of you - PoA definately not pointless.

IMHO one of the most crucial aspects of the book is Harry having to learn to produce a Patronis. We see him really challenged as a wizard for the first time - so much of the wizard world has come easily for him - flying, parseltounge, etc. In PoA he has to struggle with magic, and we see him begin to understand the power he has when he finally succeeds!

Without PoA we also wouldn't have the Knight Bus, which I think will crop up again in books 6 & 7!

jen15poms

June 24th, 2004, 3:39 pm

There are a lot of great points brought up in this discussion.
1. Sirius helped Harry a lot in PoA, GoF, and OotP. He was a father-figure that Harry needed at the time to support him.
2. Lupin was also introduced...another male figure that Harry has learned he can count on (unless it is during a full moon!)
3. Prof. Trelawney's prediction did indeed give her credibility before the Prophecy in OotP.
4. Wormtail's debt to Harry...I feel that this little detail is going to be HUGE in the future.
5. Dementors...it was extremely important for Harry to learn to defend himself against the Dementors.

I think that we just have to trust JKR on this one...why would she have written an entire book if it was going to become pointless after a few more books were written? That just doesn't make sense. She definitely knows what she is doing...we just have to wait and let her connect the dots for us!

Scarlet Tears

June 24th, 2004, 7:04 pm

I completely agree with those of you who said that the Prisoner of Azkaban was a very crucial novel. In addition to the reasons mentioned, I also think it was a significant part of the series, because it leads Harry into solving the mysteries of his current situation. J.K. Rowling has ingeniously written a series that not only goes forward, but backward as well. As we follow Harry through his present struggles into the future, we also delve into the details of the past that brought Harry to the situation he is facing now. It is important for Harry to know about his father's days at Hogwarts, as well as fascinating for us as readers to see how his father's experience in Hogwarts helped to shape his own. The Prisoner of Azkaban is somewhat pivotal in this regard, since in previous books we only had vague references to James' and Lily's lives before they died, as the main focus was discovering how Voldemort had managed to murder them while Harry had survived. Yet in the third book we finally get to find out who James really was through his best friends from school: Lupin, Sirius, and Peter. I believe that Harry's discoveries about his father and mother will help him discover who he is inside, and this knowledge will help him succeed in the fight against Voldemort.

Also, as Dumbledore said at the end of the Prisoner of Azkaban when Harry pointed out that his efforts didn't make a difference, "Didn't make any difference? It made all the difference in the world, Harry. You helped uncover the truth. You saved an innocent man from a terrible fate." The fact is, although Sirius' life was cut short, he in that small amount of time he was able to make an enormous difference in Harry's life by giving him a father figure to look up to. I believe that we learn something from everyone we meet, no matter how little time we spend with them, and Harry definitely grew more mature and found out more about himself when Sirius was with him.