Newfound evil in a deeper message

[Andrew00]

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The Order of the Phoenix has arisen one of the deepest feeling and/or thoughts in my mind (hopefully also in the minds of others): New found evil. In the past four Potter books, we have heard names of evil within the Ministry or other death eaters. Now, in Order of the Phoenix, those names and their greed and solitude in the aid of the Dark Lord comes into play.
In the Department of Mysteries we see the escaped Death Eaters who have come from remotness to serve their master once again.

Another question setting in people's minds is Percy Weasley. Percy has, as some might say, gone over to the sugar-coated side. The Ministry of Magic has censored the fact the Voldemort has returned. As Fudge might have believed it from the start, I don't think he was ready to deal with that great of a responcibility.
With this, Rowling is saying that we, as people, must face up to our fears (no matter how great they are compared to us). She is also saying that we must work together to rid the world of the evil that is in it.

In the Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, the main theme was good and evil (as it is one of the themes in Harry Potter). The thoughts in these two author's minds is "that there is still some good left in this world. No matter how great the power of those resisting the good, we must unite to face it as one. And it is worth fighting for.

[ravstardeluxe]

Wow, deep. Personally, I made of a connection with the modern world through terrorism. I mean, in today's times, I would class Voldermort as the Osama Bin Laden of the wizarding world. If you can kinda see what I mean. Okay, maybe not.

[Pinkerton]

Indeed.. I am wondering though, when it comes to the "good vs evil" thing, where the Ministry is going to be. We know that the OOTP, Hogwarts, etc is the "good".. Death Eaters and Voldemort obviously the "bad". But then there's the Ministry, eh? From OOTP it was shown that the Ministry was leaning towards "evil" because of decisions they made and how to deal with things.. but I wonder if Dumbledore has changed Fudge's view as of the end of OOTP? I really hope the Ministry can see their errors.. or at least some.. *stops rambling*

[ravstardeluxe]

I think that the Ministry are just plain ignorant. Their ignorance is what makes them evil. Well, stupid actually.

[Quidditch Capt.]

The ministry shows how politics are inherintly "evil". Evil is too strong a word, but it is deffinetly a deceitfull practice to be a politician (I'm generalizeing here). The ministry will say anything to pacify the public even if deep down they beleive that it may eventually harm them. This is the role that the ministry plays and I beleive that their deciet and denial of what is true if it is not in their best interest is an evil act.

[auramage]

Politics is evil? What's the alternative ... especially if politics is defined as interactions among people in a society.

Now, we can refer to the "power corrupts" philosophy ... the more power a politician has, the more s/he is corrupt or at least corruptible. All the more reason to build in checks and balances, standards of ethics, etc.

[auramage]

Originally posted by Andrew00 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=403065#post403065))
No matter how great the power of those resisting the good, we must unite to face it as one. And it is worth fighting for.


I like to point to other lessons too ... like: the real hero is a most unlikely person, overlooked or underestimated by the power of evil. How the hero is helped and sustained by friendship and love. How the massed forces of people working together are important, but that doesn't mean just warriors, but everyone of all ages and status.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by ravstardeluxe (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=403078#post403078))
Wow, deep. Personally, I made of a connection with the modern world through terrorism. I mean, in today's times, I would class Voldermort as the Osama Bin Laden of the wizarding world. If you can kinda see what I mean. Okay, maybe not.


No, I do. I was tempted to start drawing parallels between the Ministry and some of the more extreme anti-terrorism measures that have been proposed, but that's more of a Knockturn Alley topic.

I also saw parallels with both the Soviet Union (enemies of the leader essentially silenced, a compromised press) and anti-Soviet movements in the United States during the 1950s (again, an attempt to silence those believed to be against the government). What Andrew00 said is valid, but I think Rowling is also warning us against so losing sight of what we are fighting that we become like it.

[rlb]

I think part of what JKR addresses is that the conflict between good and evil is not a clear cut issue. You do have clearly defined extremes, DD representing the good and Voldemort representing the evil, but most fall along the continuum in between.

DD has admitted mistakes showing that 'good' is not perfect or constant. Maybe in the later books we will see something showing that Voldemort is not perfect either. There is also the possibility of Wormtail doing something good after Harry saved his life. Harry attempted to use crucio. Hermione fights for S.P.E.W. but most readers would agree that even though she genuinely believes she is doing what she sees as best, it is not necessarily the case.

Those on the 'good' end of the continuum genuinely do what they see as best for the whole and do so in as respectful manner as possible. Those on the 'bad' end of the continuum do genuinely do what they see as best for themselves without regarding others. A person is positioned and repositioned on the continuum depending on how well and often a person accomplishes either of these behaviors.

[PhoenixUK]

Wow, deep. Personally, I made of a connection with the modern world through terrorism. I mean, in today's times, I would class Voldermort as the Osama Bin Laden of the wizarding world. If you can kinda see what I mean. Okay, maybe not.

The difference is that Bin Laden has the target of overthrowing the US, wheras Voldermort wants cleansing of mudbloods, rather like Hitler with the Jews, gypsies etc.

[a1waysthedreamer]

that's one of the things i always liked about the Harry Potter books: there's a lot in them that can be related to real life.

[rayrayjohanna]

The continuum idea is about right, with DD/Hogwarts and Voldie/DeathEaters on
each end. But wasn't it Sirius who told Harry that evil people are not all Death
Eaters? So there is a place along that continuum for everyone. Fudge, through
denial and powermongering, was headed down the slippery slope toward the evil
end. He and the MoM may have turned back (which way is the wind blowing) in
true politician form, toward the good side. In modern language, his approval
ratings went down too far in denying Voldemort, they picked up once he admitted
it.

How will the rest of the wizarding community feel about Fudge now? That is a question
that Book 6 will have to address. Will Fudge and his crew be considered
collaborators and shunned? Will he emerge as a leader now (doubtful)?

This is a bit off topic, but is Umbridge off the hook now with a simple walking
stick/sock full of chalk wacking by Peeves as she left Hogwarts in dishonor? I
hope she is brought to justice, and at least tried for attempted murder. In front
of the whole Wizzengamot, with Dumbledore at the helm. Hem hem

[hermeeownninny]

The difference is that Bin Laden has the target of overthrowing the US, wheras Voldermort wants cleansing of mudbloods, rather like Hitler with the Jews, gypsies etc.

I always saw Voldemort as Hitler-like too, and the Death Eaters like Hitler's SS. (Does that make Draco the Hitler Youth?) The Ministry is like the governments of the world when Hitler was first gathering power. Fudge seems to me like Neville Chamberlain, PM of Britain during the late 1930's. . . him and the rest of Europe had an appeasement policy with Hitler- they thought if they just ignored him and let him do what he wanted, the whole problem would go away. Sounds like Fudge to me. So what I'm wondering is when the Winston Churchill of the wizarding world is going to come forth. . .

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

I always saw Voldemort as Hitler-like too, and the Death Eaters like Hitler's SS. (Does that make Draco the Hitler Youth?) The Ministry is like the governments of the world when Hitler was first gathering power. Fudge seems to me like Neville Chamberlain, PM of Britain during the late 1930's. . . him and the rest of Europe had an appeasement policy with Hitler- they thought if they just ignored him and let him do what he wanted, the whole problem would go away. Sounds like Fudge to me. So what I'm wondering is when the Winston Churchill of the wizarding world is going to come forth. . .

Yeah, old Voldie is very similiar to Hitler. He bullies people into supporting him, strives for a perfect race (Hitler wanted to rid the world of all whom he considered below his standards, such as Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies, and he also wanted to create the Ayran race - blonde haired, blue eyed, fair-skinned people. Voldemort.. well, he wants to get rid of Muggle-borns). They both even have a symbol - Voldie has the Dark Mark, and Hitler the swastika (and yes I know that Hitler stole the swastika and he did not create it himself so get off my back). The only difference is Hitler never did any of the dirty work himself - he never hoarded the Jews into the gas chambers or shoveled their bodies into the ovens. He had people do all of that for him. Voldemort, however, marches around and kills whoever he pleases.

Hey, maybe the Winston Churchill will be Mr. Weasley! :eyebrows: Wishful thinking...

[theboywholived77]

but dont forget, voldemort doesn't just want to rid the world of mudbloods, he wants total power. he wants world domination.

[loony4moony]

Aaah, serious topic! I agree with Voldemort being like Hitler, as in he wants to 'purify' the wizarding race.
I think one of the underlying themes of the book is the fact that the distinction between good and evil isn't always clear- Harry, for instance, has an obvious dark side, especially when he's angry. Another theme is 'the difference between what is right and what is easy', as DD says at the end of bk4. A lot of Voldemort's followers aren't necersarily evil- they're cowardly, like Wormtail.

[Shells Bells]

Aaah, serious topic! I agree with Voldemort being like Hitler, as in he wants to 'purify' the wizarding race.
I think one of the underlying themes of the book is the fact that the distinction between good and evil isn't always clear- Harry, for instance, has an obvious dark side, especially when he's angry. Another theme is 'the difference between what is right and what is easy', as DD says at the end of bk4. A lot of Voldemort's followers aren't necersarily evil- they're cowardly, like Wormtail.

Also, in terms of leadership, Who has the greater freedom?? The leader who cares for his people or the leader who doesn't care??

Of course the answer is the leader who doesn't care.

A wise leader cares for his people. He has less freedom because he does things that may not necessarily benefit him power wise or financially because of the concern for those he leads. His leadership is based on concern/love for his followers. To a certain extent his followers become an extended family to him. To Quote David Weber Author of The War God's Own, "I did remember that a man looks after his own in this world and lucky he is if he can do it. It came to me that perhaps "his own" was after taking in a bit more people than I'd first supposed you meant" <Bahzell Bahnakson>

The leader who doesn't care has more freedom, He can make rules and policies that directly benefit himself, because of the care he has for his followers. He kills, punishes or maims his followers because his leadership is based on fear/terror. He doesn't care if they live or die or if they go hungry, as long as they serve his needs whatever those needs may be.

It is harder to lead from the Caring position because the needs of the followers have to be considered. The rules and policies have to be those that benefit the "many" Not the "few" and voldie is leading to benefit the "few"

[cruplover]

Shells Bells, you're right. <<It is harder to lead from the Caring position because the needs of the followers have to be considered. >> DD admitted that very point was his stumbling block with HP, during their chat at the end of OotP. His desire to refrain from over-burdening Harry left Harry without some information that Harry needed. Ruling with compassion and trust (Snape, anyone?) is always much harder than ruling with a selfish, iron fist. I think in the end, we'll be shown that DD's faith in his followers is much more binding than Voldemort's Dark Mark and his scare tactics. I shook my head in GoF when Voldemort made it clear that those who had failed to search for him were going to suffer. Not a great way to welcome back the old gang, was it? But his promise of power attracts, and the Death Eaters will continue to add new members, because there are always those who are willing to pay any price for power, fame, wealth, etc.

[adonaichild]

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Another question setting in people's minds is Percy Weasley. Percy has, as some might say, gone over to the sugar-coated side. The Ministry of Magic has censored the fact the Voldemort has returned. As Fudge might have believed it from the start, I don't think he was ready to deal with that great of a responcibility.
.

I think it's interesting that you bring up Percy. It will be extremely interesting to see what happens when he finds out Voldemort is really back. I really can't see being like "oh sorry I goofed, mom and dad, you're right." I think he's power-hungry (like Fudge) and it's only going to get worse.

[whizbang121]

Well let's see. I'm running out the door so ....
Joseph Campbell
Carl Jung

If you going to deep, get a map.

[jasper]

does Voldemort really have an issue with mudbloods? Or did he just wave that flag to get support? Okay, he hates muggles, but how can he be that big on pure bloods when he isn't one?

[loony4moony]

i think Voldemort's bitter against muggle borns because his father was a muggle, and he abandoned him before he was born. Voldemort obviously hasn't told his followers that he's half-blood, so I think he's kind of in denial.

[Hamish D]

I think it's interesting that you bring up Percy. It will be extremely interesting to see what happens when he finds out Voldemort is really back. I really can't see being like "oh sorry I goofed, mom and dad, you're right." I think he's power-hungry (like Fudge) and it's only going to get worse.

i agree i, i doubt he will go walking back into the family, because of his pride

[loony4moony]

It's interesting whether or not Percy will go back...hmm *thinks hard...* I personally can't see him apoligising because he's so pompous.
Love your sig, Hamish D!!!

[cruplover]

Percy...the bad seed of the Weasley clan. I think he's a good poster child for this thread. IF he crawls back to his family, it will take something awful, like a death of a family member because of information Percy provided. I think he has been corrupted by the taste of power he had as Head Boy, and now, he's tied to Fudge. I hope they both go down in smoke.

[u_gotta_luv_me!!!!]

want to join a secret soceity? If so contact one of the proud members of MUFF - Magical Underage Freedom Fighters.

Charlie - charliedavidson1986@hotmail.com
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[Oo bUMbLE bEE oO]

It irritates me how slow the government was to finally accept that Voldemort is back. I mean, Harry was attacked again during the Sorcerer's stone. That was the first indication then there was Ginny in Chamber of Secrets and Diggory's in the fourth. I thought in the fifth one the Ministry was sure to change by then.

[adonaichild]

Percy...the bad seed of the Weasley clan. I think he's a good poster child for this thread. IF he crawls back to his family, it will take something awful, like a death of a family member because of information Percy provided. I think he has been corrupted by the taste of power he had as Head Boy, and now, he's tied to Fudge. I hope they both go down in smoke.


Wow...that's really interesting, and sad. You're right, that's probably the only way he would go back.

[Sinistra]

Well, if we want to continue with the WWII analogies, Neville Chamberlain and his appeasement policies went down in flames when Hitler invaded Poland. So Fudge (if he's the wizarding world's Chamberlain) seems in line for a sacking. Voldemort did invade the MoM itself, that cannot be ignored.

The pertinent question does seem to be, who will come to play the Churchill role? Dumbledore seems too obvious, he's more like the King and Royal family. Arthur Weasley does seem to have parallels--he is a somewhat "disgrased" politician, he could do better but for his disagreements with the Chamberlain/Fudge government (though Churchill was out of politics for a while). However he doesn't seem to be the elder statesman that Churchill was. But Churchill didn't come into it full-blown either, many people really doubted he was up to the job when he started.

And I do hope Umbridge is called to account for her two (actually more) attempted murders using the Dementors. Also what role did she play in the kissing of Crouch/Moody? She certainly deserves a long stretch in Azkaban, if not a kissing herself.

[Cat]

In the Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, the main theme was good and evil (as it is one of the themes in Harry Potter).

Only basically. In Lord of the Rings 'evil' was the power of the machine (represented by the ring). 'Good' was nature and the natural way people should live. Tolkien was a very old-fashioned man who liked to live a wholesome, Hobbit-y life.

The evil in Harry Potter seems to be the all-consuming force of power. In this case, it's the power of man. We see those who pursue power, those who turn it down, those who will lie to keep it, the little people who never get any. We see what evils are committed for the sake of the man with the power.

I think this was explored most in Order of the Phoenix, which is the most political Harry Potter book yet.

I don't think it's correct to find analogies to fit Harry Potter. Harry Potter displays human nature rather than any particular example of it. A war could be any war, a powerful man could be any powerful man, a bad guy any bad guy. Interpret as you will, but nothing in the Harry Potter books is a dead cert analogy. J. K. Rowling may have taken inspiration from a few real figures, to make her characters more real, but that's not the same.

[Puffskein]

OOTP increased the moral complexity of the series by pointing out that evil people aren't all working on the "evil" side. The Ministry in this book shows how people can do wicked things while convinced they're doing good, and that can be just as bad as the deeds of those who know they're evil.

[Sinistra]

I would refine what puffskein said--that not all evil people are working together or to be found only in one camp or are even of one mind. Delores Umbridge was certainly evil, and she inflicted a great deal of harm. However, I would argue that her sending dementors after Harry, twice, was not done "for a greater good." She just hates Harry for some reason, and wants to kill him. Maybe she was another "victim" of the marauders and she also has big issues and cannot separate Harry from his mischevious father. That's more of a joke than anything, but hey, the wizarding world is a very small world and everyone seems to run into everyone else at one time or another. Her age is similar to Snape's and James' so she could have been at school with them also.

However, if she is not properly punished, Harry now has another major nemesis to watch out for.

But the good versus evil is played out on many levels, and in many arenas. There are certainly more than just two sides to this complex world.

[Drusilla]

I think one of the messages in the series is: Evil often comes to us in the guise of comfort,of something innocent but seductive that offers us comfort and then makes us dependent on that comfort.It turns up where you least expect it. Look at Ginny and the diary.Hagrid and the Norbert-egg. Fudge and the wizarding community's absolute denial of Voldemort's return.The undoubtedly corrupt,biased,obstinate Ministry of Magic,which seems to be a symbol of aspiration for the average witch or wizard.
One of the main themes of the Harry Potter series is Good v. Evil.With Phoenix,the battle just got harder,because the lines are blurring.As Sirius said,the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters.

[PaDfOoT5]

Yes, like Sirius said, " the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters"

not everyone is going to side with the good guys or the bad guys, some just do not pick a side. Hopefully the Ministry will turn around and fight against Voldemort along side with the Order.

[Dagmar]

Indeed.. I am wondering though, when it comes to the "good vs evil" thing, where the Ministry is going to be. We know that the OOTP, Hogwarts, etc is the "good".. Death Eaters and Voldemort obviously the "bad". But then there's the Ministry, eh? From OOTP it was shown that the Ministry was leaning towards "evil" because of decisions they made and how to deal with things.. but I wonder if Dumbledore has changed Fudge's view as of the end of OOTP? I really hope the Ministry can see their errors.. or at least some.. *stops rambling*

Ok hows this for drawing parralels?

A society that encourages free thinking, exploration of different ideas: OOTP/Hogwarts == "Western" civilization
A society that does not allow free thinking and exploration of different ideas:
DE and Volde. == Religious Zealots( Or power hungry tyrants who disquise themselves as such)
An agency that is made up of people from both societies/ neither fully evil or good :
Ministry Of Magic == Government

[angel spirit]

Fudge probably got elected before Voldemort even had risen. The first time he was around it was probably a really stressd out situation. He was probably going to be thrown out if it wasn't for Harry. That's why he was always so nice to Harry. If you notice everyone is nice to him but they're more in awe of his luck and fame. Fudge is overly nice.
Now the Boy-who-saved-his-political career says Voldemort is back.... and he's not too happy.

[koli]

No fudge wasn't elected before Voldemort rose to power. He was elected during. It was stated GOF how Crouch and Fudge were top people in catching death eaters, and how Crouch was so keene on getting D.E's but he would have actually won, but the ordeal with his son etc. etc. Not to get off topic but he didn't like Harry and Dumbledore saying Voldemort was back b/c it would definately tarnish his career thusfar, didn't want people panicking and critizing him.

As for all of the other people who aren't D.E's i woudn't say they were evil (except for Umbridge she was evil) but i don't think Fudge is evil, he is just very much out for himself. Along with a lot of other people, they're more selfish and mean rather than evil like Voldemort and the D.E's.

[Queen of Wise]

The difference is that Bin Laden has the target of overthrowing the US, wheras Voldermort wants cleansing of mudbloods, rather like Hitler with the Jews, gypsies etc.
Ive never thought of that before, but it is a very similar situation. Hitler wanted to eliminate all the Jews, and Voldemort wants to eliminate anyone who isnt "pure" blood. Both are/were very powerful men, and they will do just about anything to fulfill their wishes. But if you recall, Hitler was taken down by the U.S. and other alies, so we can only think that Voldemort will be taken down as well, by the Order and Minestry.

[Alastor D]

No fudge wasn't elected before Voldemort rose to power. He was elected during.

Not exactly so. He told himself in PoA that he was junior Minister et the time the Potters were killed. And according to the Quibbler, in OotP, he was elected five years ago. That's about nine years after Voldemorts downfall.

[PLIMPY]

I don't think that the MoM is evil, they seem to fall under that saying that I am about to butcher "all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." I can see how it would be disadvantageous for Fudge's political career to say that Voldemort was back, but by the way he said it in GoF, I think, at least initial, he honestly just didn't want to believe it himself. I think that he started out as petrified, and then once he ignored DD's warnings and came out publicaly against them, then the political aspects came into play, and he used the power he had to try and discredit DD and thus his statements about Voldemort.

[Drusilla]

Fudge probably got elected before Voldemort even had risen. The first time he was around it was probably a really stressed out situation. He was probably going to be thrown out if it wasn't for Harry. That's why he was always so nice to Harry.

Fudge came to power after Voldemort's disappearance-in The Three Broomsticks in PoA,he says he was a Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes when Sirius was arrested.He probably didn't become Minister for Magic till a while later,when Millicent Bagnold (is that the spelling?) retired.
Fudge is an incompetent,prejudiced and self-important windbag.By not letting the magical community know that Voldemort was back,by not taking any note of the mysterious disappearances in GoF,by not investigating Bertha Jorkins's disappearance at the right time,by not finding out what happened to Barty Crouch Sr,he put countless lives-magical and Muggle-in danger.He was deliberately blind-which is sad because he meant well,but evil nonetheless-he should go.