Is Harry better at Divination than we think?

[kgonekrazy]

I don’t know if anyone else has noticed but almost all of Harry’s “made up” predictions for Divination seems to have come true. Maybe I am reading to much into this but here it goes:

1) Prediction about Buckbeak in PoA: “Harry cast his mind around it landed on Buckbeak. ‘A hippogriff,’ he said firmly... ...It looks fine, it’s --flying away....” As we know Buckbeak flew away free later that night with Sirius on his back.

2) Predictions while making his and Ron’s star chart in GoF:

a) “I will be in danger of -- er -- burns.” Harry faced a dragon later on in the book if that does not put you in danger of burns I don’t know what does.

b) “Lose a treasured possession,” Think the egg clue “We’ve taken what you’ll sorely miss”.

c) “I think I’ll come off worst in a fight.” Harry has a fight with Ron which in my opinion Harry “came off worst” in. Or this could mean his fight with Voldy but I don’t think Harry came off worst in this fight, I mean he is still alive.

I just thought this was weird and more then a coincidence... maybe Harry is better at Divination then we think. Do you agree? Do you think this will play a part in later books?

[Sinistra]

:clappy: :cheering: :clappy: :cheering: :clappy: :cheering: :clappy: :cheering: :clappy:

Somebody else finally noticed all that stuff. I thought I was all alone.

Ahem. I think Lily was a true seer, and so is Harry. Kgonekrazy has made the point beautifully. Also, look at Ron's predictions, he's not such a slouch at it either.

Of course, the other tack is that if you make enough predictions, some of them are bound to come true. That's the Trelawney method.

[owl post 1992]

i had a similar though that was thrown out but i do agree also i believe Ron is a seer there a few guesses he makes that come true which i can't remember right now

[Knight]

I thought the theory was that the Weasley twins were the hidden seers. They predicted the outcome of the Quidditch World Cup and all that.

[kgonekrazy]

Knight... I never thought about that!!! That would certainly be an interesting thing for JK to do.

[cbjedi]

Well Harry is very powerfully magical. It stands to reason that he's at least compatent at divination.

[cbjedi]

"b) “Lose a treasured possession,” Think the egg clue “We’ve taken what you’ll sorely miss”"

While I agree with your theory I don't agree with this point. While Ron's kidnapping does fit the 'We've taken what you'll sorely miss' part, Ron definitely isn't one of Harry's 'possessions'. Losing a close friend and losing a treasured possession isn't really the same thing.

[Kneazle]

Wow. I've entertained the possibility that Harry (& Lily) were Seers, but I never saw anything in it. That's excellent.
I like the idea of Fred & George being Seers.

[flibbertigibbet]

I never thought about Fred and George beeing seers, but I did wonder how they knew about the outcome of the match (besides keen sports sense). They did bet a lot of money on it...

[kgonekrazy]

Originally posted by owl post 1992
i had a similar though that was thrown out but i do agree also i believe Ron is a seer there a few guesses he makes that come true which i can't remember right now

Ron wanted to have a fight the same day that Harry had a fight, since they fought each other makes sense to me. Also Ron accidentally put down that he would be drowning twice, and he ended up spending an hour or more under the lake.

[Romulus Lupin]

Originally posted by kgonekrazy
Also Ron accidentally put down that he would be drowning twice, and he ended up spending an hour or more under the lake.

... and didn't drown. Or even come close to it.

And I agree: Ron isn't a possession of Harry's.

And I further submit: Harry didn't "come off worst in a fight," either. Harry was the only one who landed a blow (he threw the badge that hit Ron's forehead).

Even the thing about Buckbeak - he didn't really SEE Buckbeak flying away; he just SAID that because he was pissed off about Prof. Trelawney being so macabre about the whole thing.

It's very easy to assign credibility to so-called "predictions" after the fact. You make some statement, as vague as possible, and later on you apply it so some circumstance that sort of fits, and people will think you're precognitive. Nostradamus got a lot of attention for this: many many people (who've never read his works, mind you) think he was a seer, but I would encourage those who don't buy into baloney as readily as Lavendar and Parvati did to read this (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_051.html) article at the Straight Dope website. In fact, I would even encourage those who DO readily buy into it to read it as well, and hopefully nourish their woefully underfed skepticism.

Put simply - you can INTERPRET anything you like to mean anything you want. It doesn't mean there was an actual prediction of the future, though.

[Cat]

It could have been put there on purpose, though. It doesn't mean that Harry was foreseeing future events because, in truth, he was making it up on the spot. But it's a big insight into the world of divination that sometimes predictions you make up on the spot can have some truth.

[kgonekrazy]

Originally posted by Romulus Lupin

It's very easy to assign credibility to so-called "predictions" after the fact. You make some statement, as vague as possible, and later on you apply it so some circumstance that sort of fits, and people will think you're precognitive. Nostradamus got a lot of attention for this: many many people (who've never read his works, mind you) think he was a seer, but I would encourage those who don't buy into baloney as readily as Lavendar and Parvati did to read this (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_051.html) article at the Straight Dope website. In fact, I would even encourage those who DO readily buy into it to read it as well, and hopefully nourish their woefully underfed skepticism.

Put simply - you can INTERPRET anything you like to mean anything you want. It doesn't mean there was an actual prediction of the future, though.

Romulus Lupin, you make the same point that my roommate makes every time the topic comes up... I am not saying you are wrong but I do not agree. I think it more than a coincidence that things seem to point (even if not perfectly) to things that happen later in the book.

Here is more evidence that I left out of my first post that supports my theory:

1)The dreams in the GoF where Harry wakes up with his scar hurting. This in itself suggest that Harry has more psychic power than we think.

2)In SS/PS right after the sorting Harry has a dream about Quirrell's turban talking to him. He had no idea that Voldy was hanging out in the turban when he had the dream.

[JoFaye]

You've made a very good case for Harry's psychic powers. I had
never even thought of this aspect. (Great daydreaming for over
the week-end, thanks!)

Does anyone know what Prof. T's first prediction was?

[Sinistra]

No, that's never mentioned in the first four books. Would be neat to find out, though.

And I am also in the Harry has amazing psychic powers camp. The dreams, the predictions--and I count Buckbeak because even if he was angry, it's still right--against all common sense at the time.

The Weasley twins as secret seers??? Sounds intriguing, but I would like more than the World Cup score. That was probably predictable given the sports situation, Krum is a fantastic player, but Ireland is a fantastic team. So the team wins out, but Krum does get the snitch.

[cbjedi]

While I agree with Romulus Lupin that many of these predictions did not come true, and if there is seemingly any coincidence that it is just that, a coincidence. Especially any and all of Ron and Harry's predictions that they just made up in order to finish their homework in a hurry. And I think to say that Fred and George are sears just because they predicted the out come of the Quidditch World cup is going a little over board. They just know they're Quidditch really well is all. Heck, I've gotten a few predictions correct when it comes to baseball, but I sure as heck don't have any special ablities.

But not all of these things can be written off. I don't believe it to be a coincidence that Harry would see a Hippogriff in his tea leaves. Considering that had a huge amount of bearing on the conclusion of PoA it would be folly to say that it was written that Harry would specficly call that formation of tea leaves a 'Hippogriff'. Why not say it looked like a cat, or a bear or something if he really wasn't having a vision?

In short I think that when Harry actually tries, he can be adaquate at divination. Harry has so much magical talent that I think that he's even passable at Divination. Seeing the Hippogriff proves as much, IMHO.

[Inkwolf]

As to the treasured possesion, what about the Marauder's Map? The last we saw, Barty Crouch had it. He may have dropped it in the forest, he may have given it to Voldemot...in any case, Harry might never see it again.

And though Harry won the fight with Voldemort, in some ways he came off worst...Voldemort didn't manage to kill Harry, but he took his blood, killed Cedric, came back to life, and can now touch Harry. But Harry didn't manage to harm Voldemort at all, he only escaped with his life.

[MissPotter731]

Times
I havent even noticed that all of harry's predictions came out right. hmm :rolleyes: I think thats kinda cool that jk did it like that. I also think that his prediction of losing a prized possesion is different than losing a friend, if you know wat i mean.

[flibbertigibbet]

While I agree with RomulusLupin about the fact that most predictions can be interpreted in any way you like as long as they're general enough, I think that applies to the real world, but not necessarily fiction.

We all know that a good writer never writes anything that isn't essential to the story in any way. I really think that Harry made those off-hand predictions for a reason. It may have only been a bit of clever foreshadowing, or it may mean something more (I guess we won't find out for a while). But I'd group the Buckbeak thing in with the other "predictions". If Harry really is a Seer, his ability seems to work best when he tries not to use it. :p

[Cat]

Originally posted by flibbertigibbet

We all know that a good writer never writes anything that isn't essential to the story in any way.

That's so very untrue! Being essential to the book isn't the same as being essential to the plot. Sometimes things are included into the writing for the sake of humour or to fill in parts of the life of the character (Harry doing his homework - it's just something great to see) or to build character ever so slightly. If a writer only included the things that were absolutely neccessary then the story wouldn't have much depth. It would be set in a thoroughly edited world, which would be action-packed but unrealistic.

[flibbertigibbet]

Well, that is sort of what I meant.
There are details essential to the plot - in order to build action- and there are details essential to the story - in order to build character, depth, and to keep the flow of the story.
I just think that a good author can cleverly use what may seem like simple humour (like Harry and Ron doing their Divination homework) and turn it into something more - like foreshadowing Even if it's something that you only see once you go back and read the book again, it's still there for a reason.

The point I'm trying to make is that Harry didn't have to make the predictions he did. He could have pretended to see himself failing a test instead of seeing Buckbeak escaping, and it wouldn't have made much difference to the story. Except that the Buckbeak thing actually happened, which sort of gave the story more... cohesiveness, I guess. Does that make sense to anyone?

[Dobby]

Wow, very good! I never notcied them before!

[Tarawyn]

I have my own opinion: all of those "predictions" were a type of foreshadowing. Rowling is very good at dropping hints on what happens later in each book as well as in the series, and this would have been a perfect time to do so, as there really aren't too many places where something of that sort would be possible.

Harry's extra powers seem to all be in connection to Voldemort. His nightmare on the first night of school could very well have been a warning, but Voldemort was under the turban. When Quirrell met Harry's eyes, his scar hurt; the dream, in a way, was a warning that he lost by not remembering. Harry's semi-prophetic dreams, accompanied by the pain in his scar, occur when Voldemort is at emotional extremes. It's obvious that Harry is powerful; whether he could be called a seer in matters completely unrelated to Voldemort remains to be seen. Romulus is correct in that predictions of the sort can easily come true if they're vague enough, and I think we've started to head over to over-analyzation. I don't think something popping into his head or something made up by him is proof of strong divination skills. He could very well have his own skills that haven't been developed yet, there's just no proof. Everyone who ate cantelope in the Civil War is dead.

[Romulus Lupin]

Don't get me wrong; I'm sure Harry IS a seer. I just don't think every time he speaks a sentence in the future tense, he's revealing a precognitive vision.

a) “I will be in danger of -- er -- burns.” Harry faced a dragon later on in the book if that does not put you in danger of burns I don’t know what does.

Well, yes, technically he was in danger of burns, but he didn't get burned from the dragon - he got cut. And anyway, his prediction was that it would happen on the following Monday, which was well before the first task and even before his name came out of the Goblet. After that 'prediction', Ron said "Yeah, you will. We're seeing the skewts again on Monday!" As I recall, he didn't get burned then either.

But not all of these things can be written off. I don't believe it to be a coincidence that Harry would see a Hippogriff in his tea leaves. Considering that had a huge amount of bearing on the conclusion of PoA it would be folly to say that it was written that Harry would specficly call that formation of tea leaves a 'Hippogriff'. Why not say it looked like a cat, or a bear or something if he really wasn't having a vision?

Who says he actually DID see the hippogriff (or anything else) in the tea leaves? He was taking his Divination Final and had to claim he saw *something* -- and the matter of Buckbeak's fate (along with numerous other factors) was distracting him at the time, at least on a subconcious level. He named the first animal that occured to him.

He never saw anything in the crystal ball, besides loads of white mist. He never saw the Grim in his cup - he saw an amorphous mass of soggy leaf pulp.

Harry's got a strong will and a brutal determinism. The fact that anything he "predicts" happens to come true may be more due to his having *made* it come true after the fact rather than actually having "seen" it beforehand.

[daniel4hp]

Well, I can see both positions. There is some things that point to his being a seer, but I wouldn't put to much faith in it. Some could be coincidences, others, such as Buckbeak's trial, might just be based on what he was thinking, although that could arguably be connected to his being a seer. In any case, its a great theory, and I wouldn't rule it out.

[owl post 1992]

Harry's got a strong will and a brutal determinism. The fact that anything he "predicts" happens to come true may be more due to his having *made* it come true after the fact rather than actually having "seen" it beforehand.

so your basically saying he wanted to lose in a fight with anybody :??: because that doesn't seem like him

It's obvious that Harry is powerful how is this obvious :??: what he defeated Voldemort 4 times well at least twice was his mother's doing rather than his and the 3rd anyone can plundge a sword into something it doesn't take magical strength for that and 4th he lost that battle with Voldemort so he's not all powerful and secondly he couldn't perform a simple summoning charm which would have been simple even Neville did the counter charm

[kgonekrazy]

Owl Post you have a good point, but ( there is always a but) Harry in the first 4 book was learning and developing his powers. Of course his battles were won with luck and help. It would not have been realistic if he just walked in to Hogwarts and was the most powerful wizard who ever lived overnight. At the end of GoF we get a taste of how powerful Harry has grown to be. He did something no one has ever done; escaped from Voldy alive when Voldy wanted him died. He did not have his mothers protection then and there was no one to help him; yet, he still got away.

[Romulus Lupin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by owl post 1992
so your basically saying he wanted to lose in a fight with anybody :??: because that doesn't seem like him

All right, maybe that was unclear. Perhaps it would be better worded thus:

The fact that some of the things he "predicts" happen to come true, blah blah blah. Or: If anything he "predicts" happens to come true, etc.

So, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that everything he predicts comes true. That thing about the fight, for example - I've already posted that I don't believe that he did come off worst in that fight, which in any case didn't take place on the date he supposedly "predicted" it would. (Yes, we know he was unhappy, but we only see Harry's perspective, and there's no reason not to believe that Ron wasn't just as miserable that whole time, esp. given that we hear from Hermione that Ron misses him too.)

Some (perhaps even most) of his predictions are not genuine prognostications. They're just Harry spewing some babble to keep Prof. Trelawney happy. Some of those happen to come true (if you care to interpret them so), but many of these are due to concerted efforts on his own part - which doesn't mean it's a prediction. I could say "I will get a new job by the end of the year," and then brush up my resume, send it to a zillion people, and the chances will be decent that I might get that new job. Doesn't mean I PREDICTED it, though, if I'm the one who made it happen.

People think Jeanne Dixon had precognitive powers, because she allegedly predicted Kennedy's assassination. Rubbish. The vast majority of the predictions she made were blatantly false, but people just don't remember those.

Notice that Harry's visions of Voldemort occur to him in dreams, or perhaps trances (in case you believe he never actually fell asleep in Divination) - at times when he was unaware of himself or his surroundings, like Prof. Trelawney's prediction about Voldemort getting stronger at the end of book 3. The stuff Harry "predicted" for his Divination exam and homework involved none of that - just a conscious application of BS, some of which happened to come true, either coincidentally or as a deliberate result of his own efforts.

[Cat]

Originally posted by flibbertigibbet

The point I'm trying to make is that Harry didn't have to make the predictions he did.

No, but it isn't bad writing if there's no huge revelation in that bit of humour. He didn't HAVE to have a pretend sword fight versus Ron with two fake wands but that was included.

[JoFaye]

I think it is a really interesting thought. I need to ponder it
a while.

[FRED ASTAIRE]

Originally posted by kgonekrazy
I don’t know if anyone else has noticed but almost all of Harry’s “made up” predictions for Divination seems to have come true. Maybe I am reading to much into this but here it goes:

1) Prediction about Buckbeak in PoA: “Harry cast his mind around it landed on Buckbeak. ‘A hippogriff,’ he said firmly... ...It looks fine, it’s --flying away....” As we know Buckbeak flew away free later that night with Sirius on his back.

2) Predictions while making his and Ron’s star chart in GoF:

a) “I will be in danger of -- er -- burns.” Harry faced a dragon later on in the book if that does not put you in danger of burns I don’t know what does.

b) “Lose a treasured possession,” Think the egg clue “We’ve taken what you’ll sorely miss”.

c) “I think I’ll come off worst in a fight.” Harry has a fight with Ron which in my opinion Harry “came off worst” in. Or this could mean his fight with Voldy but I don’t think Harry came off worst in this fight, I mean he is still alive.

I just thought this was weird and more then a coincidence... maybe Harry is better at Divination then we think. Do you agree? Do you think this will play a part in later books?


I to noticed it! But I thought I was imagining it since no one else said any thing about it...until I saw this post!

I have a feeling that he can do more than (he doesn't know the potential he has) that what we have seen!

[FRED ASTAIRE]

"While I agree with your theory I don't agree with this point. While Ron's kidnapping does fit the 'We've taken what you'll sorely miss' part, Ron definitely isn't one of Harry's 'possessions'. Losing a close friend and losing a treasured possession isn't really the same thing."







How about his rat? He did lose it!

[Cat]

I think that whether you can connect Harry's 'predictions' to the truth or not, he was pretty much using Professor Trelawney's method of divination.

Even Dumbledore seems to think, in his own well-mannered way, that her divination lessons are iffy. I don't think I've ever disagreed with that particular Headmaster.

So perhaps Harry was making a genuine prediction in Professor Trelawney's fullest sense of the term. She certainly gave them good marks. And, after all, Neville smashed his cup when she said he would. But, after all, that could be ingenious codswallop.

[flibbertigibbet]

Originally posted by Cat
No, but it isn't bad writing if there's no huge revelation in that bit of humour. He didn't HAVE to have a pretend sword fight versus Ron with two fake wands but that was included.

Well, it's not bad writing, but if there is some sort of hidden detail, it's certainly better writing. In my humble opinion, anyhow. That's sorta what I'm trying to get at.

by Cat:
I think that whether you can connect Harry's 'predictions' to the truth or not, he was pretty much using Professor Trelawney's method of divination.

Trelawney's method isn't really 'true' divination though, is it? While I agree their methods are similar (except Trelawney tries :)), I think that a true seer would use a different method of -er- seeing. It would be more like what happened when Trelawney had her only two real predictions - and Harry hasn't quite had that before. (Unless his dream counts? Arrrgh, I'm confusing myself. I'll stop typing now :p).

[winky]

Haven't you people ever heard of foreshadowing? It's a writing technique where an author uses clues in the text to subtly predict other things that will happen in the story. J.K. Rowling does a lot of this. Hagrid borrows young Sirius Black's motorbike to take Harry to the Dursleys. This comes up big time later(PoA). Harry talks to a snake at a zoo, if I'm not mistaken, this is quite big later (like all of CoS). Mungundus Fletcher sleeps under a cloak propped up by sticks at the Quidditch world cup and months later, Dumbledore mentions him as part of "the old crowd". These and the "prophesies" you're all talking about are really nothing more than an author's attempt to give us a hint as to what's going to happen later. Unfortunately, a lot of us so want to belive that all the characters have something even more supernatural about them than being wizards/witches that we insist that J.K. Rowling's foreshadowing is more than it is. I dunno, maybe I'm an idiot, but that's what I think.

~Winky~

[Romulus Lupin]

Originally posted by FRED ASTAIRE
"While I agree with your theory I don't agree with this point. While Ron's kidnapping does fit the 'We've taken what you'll sorely miss' part, Ron definitely isn't one of Harry's 'possessions'. Losing a close friend and losing a treasured possession isn't really the same thing."







How about his rat? He did lose it!

The rat was Ron's. The prediction was Harry's. It wouldn't be much of a prediction in any case, because Ron lost Scabbers in the *previous* book to the one in which the prediction was made.

[Puffskein]

Hmm. Certainly we're meant to think that if you make enough vague predictions, you're bound to get some right, and that you can make something you want to happen come true (eg Buckbeak).

Harry's dreams are very interesting. The two he had in GOF weren't predictions, they were seeing things at the time they happened, I think.
Harry must have some kind of psychic power in that regard (a link with Voldemort perhaps?)

[apples]

Originally posted by cbjedi
While I agree with your theory I don't agree with this point. While Ron's kidnapping does fit the 'We've taken what you'll sorely miss' part, Ron definitely isn't one of Harry's 'possessions'. Losing a close friend and losing a treasured possession isn't really the same thing.

Do you think the treasured posession could be his Marauder's Map? As far as we know, he still hasn't gotten that back yet! :wow:

[Daily Propheter]

Hmm... I never noticed any of this stuff before. It all fits w/ my (very elaborate, very long winded) theory though.
:evil:

[robyn]

I think this is very interesting, i noticed it before but never really thought about it. One thing though is that Ron suggested to Harry that he put that he would be stabbed in the back by someone he thought was a friend. That one certainly did come true. Although the time frame is wrong, since most of these things happened more than a month after they made their predictions, I still think it is very interesting that so many of the "predictions" can be tied to actual events in the book.

[Caenne]

(Ron speaking) "...Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?"
"Yeah...cool...," said Harry, scribbling it down, "because...Venus is in the twelfth house."
"And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."
"Aahh, I was going to have a fight. Okay, I'll lose a bet."
"Yeah, you'll be betting I win my fight..."
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, p. 222 (US version)

Harry didn't pretend to predict the fight, Ron did. Harry predicted he would lose the bet. Basic grammar tells us this.

"Honestly, don't you two READ?" - Hermione ;)

[JaLaPeNo]

OoOoOOoOooOo...very nice Caenne.....so i guess that fact throws my whole theory away.... :shrug:

[lanifiel]

Personally I think Harry has many gifts and abilites we have not seen yet. Thats what makes him so fun to read, he doesnt know how much power hes got or how to use it until he really needs too...

[Caenne]

sorry JaLaPeNo

[Justin Etre]

harry definately has depth and skill that neither we or he knows of yet, but i think dumbledore has an idea

[Inkwolf]

Originally posted by Caenne
Harry didn't pretend to predict the fight, Ron did. Harry predicted he would lose the bet. Basic grammar tells us this.


Yeah, but Harry was GOING to predict losing a fight! He only changed it because he didn't want his predicition to be the same as Ron's. So it still stands as a prediction of Harry's, too.

[Caenne]

*rolls her eyes* Guys, they were making things up. They weren't trying to predict anything. As I recall, he also 'predicted' his own death by decapitation. Haven't seen that happen, as well as 90% of the others. Anyone can be right 10% of the time.

[Astaldo]

I agree, it was for homework they had to do in a short time, they were thinking of things that were bad to happen to them (i would of used a better word then bad but i couldnt spell it ;) )

[Inkwolf]

Yeah, but maybe JKR made them real predictions, just for fun. :)

[Anne]

While I do believe Harry is a seer, I think the only evidence of we have of this are his dreams. Not only his dreams about Voldemort, but also his dream in POA where he sees a stag running through a forest. That's certainly a prophetic dream.

I personally believe that this is a power transferred to Harry by Voldemort. It would also explain Voldemort's incredible ability to know exactly when people are lying to him. "Do not lie to Lord Voldemort, Muggle, for he knows...he always knows..."

[pasalita]

*bump*

[Justin Etre]

Originally posted by kgonekrazy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=31691#post31691))
1) Prediction about Buckbeak in PoA: ?Harry cast his mind around it landed on Buckbeak. ?A hippogriff,? he said firmly... ...It looks fine, it?s --flying away....? As we know Buckbeak flew away free later that night with Sirius on his back.
I thinkthis IS a true prediction
2) Predictions while making his and Ron?s star chart in GoF:

a) ?I will be in danger of -- er -- burns.? Harry faced a dragon later on in the book if that does not put you in danger of burns I don?t know what does.

b) ?Lose a treasured possession,? Think the egg clue ?We?ve taken what you?ll sorely miss?.

c) ?I think I?ll come off worst in a fight.? Harry has a fight with Ron which in my opinion Harry ?came off worst? in. Or this could mean his fight with Voldy but I don?t think Harry came off worst in this fight, I mean he is still alive.
Harry and Ron put don't every negative scenario that they could think of, but seeing as these were the ones that JKR told us about, maybe he is a true seer. We know he dreams are sometimes visions (GoF)

[miri]

I think there might be a bit more than coincidence at work and while I dont know if i think the Divination work predictions are true (many happened, after a fashion, but were really *she's a bloodthirsty old bat. She'll lik reading about this!*)

Btw if he said he was in danger of burns, he never says he got burnt.

It could be a powere transferred from Voldemort, good idea!

[Daily Propheter]

If you make enough vague predictions, some are bound to come true, which (I think) is pretty much what Trelawny goes by. But Harry does seem to have a pretty good record of his 'predictions' coming true. A lot of what he 'predicted' seems to have come true, at least to a certain extent.
I think he could have the abilities of a seer. Maybe it's another thing that Voldemort accidently passed to him, or it could be a family trait (it's been suggested Lily was a seer).

[arabella_black]

[quote]Originally posted by Anne (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=69020#post69020))
While I do believe Harry is a seer, I think the only evidence of we have of this are his dreams. Not only his dreams about Voldemort, but also his dream in POA where he sees a stag running through a forest. That's certainly a prophetic dream.

I am so glad that someone else has noticed this dream cos i have been saying for ages and ages that this a sign that harry is a seer. I tend to believe that he is definitly a seer.:evil:

[MadMagic]

He could be a seer. But I don't think he is a seer when he is awake and making up predictions for divination. I think most of the divination predictions are foreshadowing. They are all really vague and you could interpret them in many different ways. Like Hermione pointed out about Divination. But the dreams that he have do tend to come true and be accurate in some way. So this might be a special gift Harry has, or it could be because of his scar. The stag dream really couldn't fit into the scar category, so maybe he really does have some sort of gift.

[Fuchsia]

Do seers have their visions all of the time?
Harry might just be getting these because he is set up for a great destiny and when that is over they will stop.
I don't have anything to back this theory up with though.

[MadMagic]

I don't really know what qualifies someone as a "true seer" but I don't really want Harry to be a life long seer. Most people into divination are pretty goofy and I would hate Harry to be thought of as goofy. I like the idea that he gets the visions becuase he is set up for a great destiny. Maybe they are helping him and showing him what he needs to do. Once he has completed his great task or whatever, they will stop and Harry will be left in peace.

[Fuchsia]

Yes how long does he need to be treated like a freak for? He will be looked to whenever there is a great problem already and that isn't fair. The poor kid.

Maybe all seers get their visions from whatever gives them their magic? It could be like the force that surrounds the wizards and others have it more? The magic itself feeds the wizard the visions?
Oh dear I am pulling this out of my behind aren't I?

[Hpmons]

I personally think differently. I think its Ron who is the seer.

- "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight." Regardless of whether Harry was going to do that or not, he still said it.
- Ron suggested to Harry that he should be stabbed in the back by his friend; and either Ron or Harry could relate to this - Ron felt he had been becuase Harry didnt tell him the "truth"; and Harry would feel that Ron was deserting him.
- Ron predicted to be drowning. In the second task he is deep underwater...

I have also had a thread where Fred and George seem to be quite good at predictions, so perhaps it runs in the family...

[HP_WizKid]

Yesssssssssssssss!!
I'm soo happy there is other people than me who think this.Sorry its just i dont get many people who share the same views with me in harry stuff.
I totally believe that Harry can foresee the future.I mean Harry can do alot of things without knowing .Plus i am really interrested in his eyes and there importance and i think they possibly help in this area of magic too maybe.
But i totally agree with Sinistra and Kgonecrazy on this and im sure theres other things ive noticed him predict in other books too but i cant think what now.i'll have to go now and check that up!

hannah

[jordmundt6]

Okay, Arabella's the first one I partially agree with on here. He's had mystical dreams ever since Book 1. But most have been about what's happening to him right then (Quirrel's turban trying to bully him into transferring into Slytherin because "it was his destiny"--pressure from Voldemort?). The dream of the Patronus he chased through the woods, and probably would have ended up at the lake if he hadn't woken up right then. But there's a dream to poke a hole in this theory (Malfoy and the Slytherins riding dragons at the Quidditch Final). Also, Seers by definition see the future. The only episode where one might argue that Harry saw the future, or a hint of the future was the Patronus dream. His Voldemort visions happen contemporaneously with events. Ron has been making random guesses that have turned out to be right since PoA. Remember the "windfall/unexpected gold" Ron saw in Harry's tea leaves as a "hippo"? If you push hard enough, that could be the Firebolt. But that's really stretching. As for the twins, either the males (Fred and George) or the females (Parvati and Padma--it's Parvati and Lavender who hang around the dingbat we have no evidence that Padma's ever up there--). No. Not by a longshot. Fred and George know Quidditch. They ought to. Their family probably has the finest assemblage of Quidditch talent (aggregate) in England. Charlie the legendary Seeker, Fred and George ("the human Bludgers" as Wood proudly calls them), and Ron might have some potential. And their father is an avid and knowledgeable fan. Anyway, they know Quidditch, they discuss it all the time, and I guarantee that Bill, Charlie, Fred, and George all agreed on the outcome before Fred and George bet anything. Remember Charlie's analysis? "Krum's one decent player. Ireland's got seven [well more like six]". That's all for now. I think.

[wendelin_the_weird]

In book four when Ron and Harry are doing there star charts (Page 221 American paperback) it says:

1) ' " Right," said Harry, crumpling up his first attempt and lobbing it over the heads of a group of first years into the fire.
"Okay…on Monday, I will be in danger of-er-burns."
"Yeah, you will be," said Ron darkly "we're seeing the skrewts again on Monday…."'

2) Ron is the one who loses the treasured possession (Page 221 last paragraph U.S. paperback ).

3) (Page 335) When Harry and Ron have the fight Harry throws the POTTER STINKS badge at Ron that was the last time they saw each other until the first task. Ron came up worse in the fight because the fight ends twenty-three pages later on page 358.

Harry might be a seer, but I doubt it.

[Rounded Buddha]

I never thought of it before but there is alot of evidence behind this! I agree with kgonecrazy all those dreams and predictions have come true in one way or another. Harry does come off worse in the fight because Sirius has to go just when he was about to tell him how to stop the dragons (yes, i know he found another way after!).

[Rounded Buddha]

Also, this could be where the eyes come in, people who can see the future are called seers and JK always talks about his eyes. Link? or is it just me being stupid.

Rounded Buddha

ps I have found a really cool site: http://www.mostannoyingwebpage.com/v1/

[sugarquill]

Wow rounded buddha I just got the same thought today and was searching to see if i could post it when I saw this post. I think Harry having his mothers eyes ties in with both of them being seers. Maybe thats what seta voldi on them, Lily predicting that Harry would kill voldi, and peter delivered the the message.

[zoeydsngwrtr]

Wow, that is something I had never noticed. Though there seems to be an awful lot of speculation going around as to who is and who isn't a seer, it is true that many of Harry's predictions came true. I would say that Harry's mom was a seer, and that Harry may be too, not a powerful one but one that with concentration, tends to be good at it. I believe on some level, everyone is a seer, some are just better at it than others.

[Lupin_Sirius_Fan]

:clappy: :clappy:

I applaud you all. This is my master theory when it comes to the Potter books. Harry is better at a lot of things than he thinks. He's pretty **** good at Defence Against the Dark Arts, me thinks. A good indicator of future Auror status ;D

[DocHollidaywe]

think of all the ones that didnt come true

[jordmundt6]

I don't know that Harry will want anything more to do with the hunting of Dark Wizards if he defeats Voldemort. Too costsly. If he doesn't end up at Hogwarts replacing the dear, departed Dumbledore or filling in for McGonagall at Transfiguration when she takes over the Headmistress position, I think he'll be a Quidditch star. Something fun that's both peaceful and exhilerating and a way to be closer to his father.

[inoLIKEmonkeys]

OK so im all for harry seeing the fueture but i dont think that the turban one was anyhting like that, as he didnt know anything about voldie being on the back of quirrell's head i think that quirrell posessed harry knowing that if harry made choices such as to be placed in slytherin and befriend draco malfoy that harry might join voldi. because it did say in the books that harry had the opportunity to go the same way as T.M. Riddle but chose not to
and could anyone tell me when in the books harry has a dream about a patronus? im confused
o and if any one else was stupid enough to click on Rounded Buddha's link all you have to do is hold down enter and you'll scroll right through the pop-ups:cool:

[M a r v o l o]

Yep. I completely agree, I don't think that was a coincidence. I don't know if it means he's GOOD at divination, but he certainly made some accurate predictions.

[JoFaye]

The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Harry Potter Mysteries says, if Ron says something seriously; ignore it. If, however, he makes a joking reference, LOOK OUT! I went back and checked and it seems to be a pretty good rule. Now I am wondering about the joking references he made about Snape being a vampire. Just a divination observation.

[Kristus_Vesanus]

Something to add about all these seer predictions....in book 5, Ron goes, "We have about as much chance of winning the quidditch cup as my dad has of becoming minister of magic." Well.....they won the quidditch cup and quite obviously, Fudge won't be staying as minister much longer with letting Voldemort come back and denying it so often, when the whole world now knows that he's back. Perhaps Arthur Weasley will become the new minister. It will finally give the Weasley family more gold than they have now....

[JoFaye]

Something to add about all these seer predictions....in book 5, Ron goes, "We have about as much chance of winning the quidditch cup as my dad has of becoming minister of magic." Well.....they won the quidditch cup and quite obviously, Fudge won't be staying as minister much longer with letting Voldemort come back and denying it so often, when the whole world now knows that he's back. Perhaps Arthur Weasley will become the new minister. It will finally give the Weasley family more gold than they have now....

The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the the Mysteries of Harry Potter says,
"If Ron formulates a theory in ernest, just forget it, BUT when Ron says something in jest, Look Out! Maybe Mr. Weasley will become the Minister of Magic. Wonder what he'll do with Percy?

[tree guardian]

Well, I must admit, since PoA I was wondering about Harry's seeing abilities. Also I was wondering if Trelawny would give him a better grade on his test after she finds his prediction to be true? :)

So, I do lean toward Harry having seer abilities. How far they will take him without his recognition, though, I dunno.

[WronskiFeint734]

I think that Harry, Lily, and James were all Seers, but they didn't know it. I have noticed all of Harry's predictions and in someway or another, they have come true. Lily could have been a seer, after all, it was confirmed that we will learn more about her, so maybe that is one of the main points. I hope JK will answer this for us, because it has kind of been bugging me. :p

[Beauty and Song]

It may be possible that all wizards are good at divination at some levels. The same with any other brand of magic. It just seems too much of a coincidence to me that Harry, Ron, Fred and George are seers. It's possible that all wizards are able to do it, if not, why would they even be teaching it at Hogwarts?

A true seer may be someone who is A) really good at it and/or B) able to do it on command or knowingly.

[KlutzyFreak]

The Centaurs obviously use astrology to great effect, but we've seen no evidence yet of any wizards doing so. Perhaps all of the means of Divination that Trelawney favors -- crystal-gazing and tea-reading and astrology and the like -- are very weak tools in the hands of humans.

Maybe the only people who are seers, don't need any tools? They simply go with hunches, and are usually correct?
That would certainly explain why, in various situations, Harry is right when following his instincts. But there isn't enough evidence to back-up the theory that Harry is a seer.

[legstump]

Trelawny Couldn't see her way out of a paper bag treeG, let alone recognize a true seer. It does make for interesting reading though...quite ironic Harry's worst class is the one he ends up having the most natural flair for...

[aggiefan1206]

I really think its one of his weaker subjects but its a possibility. Ron seems like the would be the one to be better at divination. But who knows mabe theyw ill both turn out to be good.

[tonks442]

In OotP, Harry tells Professor Marchbanks she should have died the previous Tuesday in the OWL tests. What I found funny is that Prof. Marchbanks is REALLY old, (she's a bit deaf) so perhaps she should have died the previous Tuesday? :lol: Coincidence? I do think that Harry is better at Divination than we (or himself) thinks, we (and Harry) just lack the confindence in Harry. Or perhaps in the art of Divination itself. It isnt a very solid and reliable subject is it?

[Tane]

I don’t know if anyone else has noticed but almost all of Harry’s “made up” predictions for Divination seems to have come true. Maybe I am reading to much into this but here it goes:

1) Prediction about Buckbeak in PoA: “Harry cast his mind around it landed on Buckbeak. ‘A hippogriff,’ he said firmly... ...It looks fine, it’s --flying away....” As we know Buckbeak flew away free later that night with Sirius on his back.

2) Predictions while making his and Ron’s star chart in GoF:

a) “I will be in danger of -- er -- burns.” Harry faced a dragon later on in the book if that does not put you in danger of burns I don’t know what does.

b) “Lose a treasured possession,” Think the egg clue “We’ve taken what you’ll sorely miss”.

c) “I think I’ll come off worst in a fight.” Harry has a fight with Ron which in my opinion Harry “came off worst” in. Or this could mean his fight with Voldy but I don’t think Harry came off worst in this fight, I mean he is still alive.

I just thought this was weird and more then a coincidence... maybe Harry is better at Divination then we think. Do you agree? Do you think this will play a part in later books?I think you are right with the star chart making predictions and do think Harry is great at divination just like Dumbledore is. You know I almost get a feeling that Harry may indeed be Dumbledore as a boy.

Was the fight describing Harry and Ron or a fight between Harry and the death eaters in OotP because Harry definetly came worse off there through losing Sirius.

Or actually the fight may have been the one against Voldemort at the end of GoF in which case that is worrying because if it does not refer to Cedric dying then it refers to Voldemort getting the upper hand on Harry.

Grate post. :tu:

[GodricHollow]

Hmm, at first all I was gonig to say was the whole "predicting Voldemort's emotions" thing, you know, I think we've got something here... :evil:

[Harry and Draco]

I to noticed it! But I thought I was imagining it since no one else said any thing about it...until I saw this post!

I have a feeling that he can do more than (he doesn't know the potential he has) that what we have seen!

I think Harry, does not know really, anything, he can do, until something Drastic happens. I mean, he never knew he could know what LV was planning, but then after a while(i know SOMETHING drastic happens) he learns he can.