Was Snape in the graveyard after all?

[Inkwolf]

I know the topic of who is the coward and who has left and must die has been done to death.

But I've begun to wonder...is it possible that neither one is Snape?

If Dumbledore knew that Snape's Dark Mark was coming back, he might have told Snape to be prepared to be called away, and to go when called. Snape might have gone when the call came and returned quickly after Harry escaped.

That would explain why nobody seems to be trying to kill him, why he's still pals with the Malfoys, and why Dumbledore doesn't seem terribly worried about letting his teacher-with-a-death-sentence wander around freely.

It's possible that Snape's trial verdict was not made public, or else that Snape managed to explain it away as 'laying low' the way Lucius got away with claiming the Imperius curse as his excuse. Snape could have claimed that Dumbledore vouched for him because he wanted Snape's experttise in potion-making, or felt sorry for him, or something....

[Picko]

There still seems to be a problem with the events of PS, where Snape clearly goes against Quirrell - who of course was possessed by Voldemort. One's got to wonder how Voldemort treats that - for a period of time Snape was the only thing standing in the way of Voldemort's return.

Then we have the apparating issue, Snape would have needed to exit the school grounds to apparate to the graveyard. This would take time and it wasn't like Snape could tell that Voldemort was near return. He would have felt some sort of special or very powerful burn and realised Voldemort was calling him. I would have thought that Snape would have taken quite a while to get to the graveyard if this was the case. The same goes for coming back. Snape broke down the door with Dumbledore and McGonagall - if my memory serves me correctly. Again we have to consider Snape's ability to get back to Hogwarts and catch up with Dumbledore and McGonagall.

[dog star]

I think it would have been very difficult to convince everyone who was at that trial that Dumbledore "felt sorry for him" or that Snape had bribed Dumbledore or something else like that. Results of a Death Eater trial are not exactly going to be hush-hush, I wouldn't think. And then there is the Quirrel issue...and just how much was Voldemort "aware" when he was in the back of Quirrel's head? He seemed to be aware of his surroundings just before the battle over the stone, but how long had that been going on?

[Tomsk]

He would have had to be with the Death Eaters at other times, which could have meant the DoM as well, and what was he going to do, tell the other DEs that they shouldn't bother? I don't think Snape has returned to the DEs, it would stick out. I think Voldemort would have killed him. He's probably doing some kind of spying on them though...

[Doggy]

I don't think he was at the graveyard; wouldn't Harry have noticed? Then on the other hand, Snape could have been one of those Voldemort passed by; something that seams very unlikely.

Don't forget Scabbers aka Wormtail. He could have heard several conversations in the dorm (or outside it) between Harry, Hermione and Ron, and those could have conserned Snape threatening Quirrel (as they thought). Wormtail probably passed all that on to Voldemort.

Besides, Voldemort probably called his death eaters together often, and that would probably have meant Snape being absent from work, unless these meetings took place in the night, something I don't think Voldemort would care about, since he doesn't seem concerned with his Death Eaters' public "non-Voldemort" appearence.

As a final point, lets say Snape was at the graveyard. Who, then was the person who Voldemort "believe has left me forever?" Any ideas?

[Inkwolf]

Ummm....what makes everyone so certain that Quirrel told Snape who he was working for?

Snape: See you're back again this year, Quirrel.
Quirrel: Yes, and I'm subcontracting for Voldemort, now!

Voldemort and Quirrel considered Snape useful as a diversion, and probably didn't let him into their plans. Snape realized what Quirrel was after, but might never have been told who Quirrel was after it for.

Snape could have been one of the ones not spoken to, and if Voldemort wanted him as a spy in Hogwarts, he would hardly yank him out of class regularly! :p

As to who it is who must die....dunno. Maybe one of Harry's other adult friends has something dodgy in his past?

[Tomsk]

If Snape was in the graveyard Voldemort wouldn't have hesitated in showing him off to Harry, so that Harry would die knowing Snape was evil really.... even though he's not and Harry didn't die.... but Voldemort would have wanted to show him to Harry.

[chrissy2crazy]

I don't think that Snape was at the graveyard. Dumbledore trusts Snape, and he did leave Harry alone with Snape to do Occulmency... and as pointed out before, Snape went against Quirrel/Voldemort in SS/PS and he also, when told by Harry in OotP that Padfoot was in trouble, went straight to try and find Sirius instead of ignoring it even though Snape and Sirius hated (god, I hate using past tense now with Sirius!) eachother... Snape has good intentions, but obviously doesn't show them!

:) :p

[Quasi_EviL]

JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn’t think he’s too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.

Just because Dumbledore trusts him, doesn't mean he's so good. He's such a mysterious character - there's something going on with him. I like the idea about him being in the graveyard, but unlike what Tomsk said, I don't think he would have showed him off to Harry...he'd have rather not told him he was there, so Harry would have no idea.

[Inkwolf]

Being in the graveyard has nothing to do with being good or trusted.

Dumbledore would have wanted him to go, to see what was up and return with information.

[dog star]

Quirrel didn't have to tell Snape...Snape was suspicious anyhow, and seemed to be tailing Quirrel's every move. The encounter in the Forbidden Forest would seem to seal the deal, since Snape was standing in the way of Quirrel/V getting the stone. If I were Voldemort in the back of Quirrel's head at that point in time, I know I would have wondered about Snape's loyalties then. And, in any case, if V still thought Snape was loyal to the DEs, why not enlist his help, instead of having him working against you? Or at least let him know what's going on so he won't try to stop you, even if he doesn't offer any assistance.

[Inkwolf]

If Voldemort thought Snape was preventing Quirrel getting the stone for himself (Quirrel) he'd have had no reason to think it had anything to do with Snape's loyalty to Voldemort.

And Voldemort would not ask Snape to help, Snape was one of those Death Eaters who never tried to help Voldemort return...Voldie was POed at everyone but the Lestranges and Crouch, remember?

[dog star]

If preventing Quirrel/V from getting the stone is preventing his return, wouldn't that be considered a disloyal action, though?

[tree guardian]

Well I too thought Snape might have been at the graveyard. It was never said and I don't want to assume he wasn't, so I'd say it is a great possiblity.

Also, Snape could have been an at the DoM to make sure no one (students) were killed. They were all wearing masks. He could have hightailed it after the "calvery' showed up too.

I don't know really, but ever since SS I've been curious about Snapes position.

NoTe: That dude in GoF didn't seem to have a problem at all in going to Snape and whinging about his scar hurting. Though he was a coward git (the whinging man), if Snape were this superiously hated man by all Death Eaters I'd he wouldn't talk to Snape, considering he (the whinging man) wasn't considered badly in Voldemorts eyes until he didn't show up when called.

:) Have a nice day

[Wakkachuta]

Voldemort probably knew that Snape had betrayed him from when he was stuck in the back of Quirrel's head.

In GoF, Voldemort says of the Death Eaters that did not show up, And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who i believe has left me for ever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already re-entered my service.
Of course Karkaroff is the cowardly one, and Crouch Jr. was the faithful one, but I think that Snape is the one who has left forever.
So I don't think Snape was there.

[Inkwolf]

Originally posted by dog star (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=417743#post417743))
If preventing Quirrel/V from getting the stone is preventing his return, wouldn't that be considered a disloyal action, though?


Not really.

Being disloyal implies that Snape was intentionally keeping the stone from Voldemort.

But, if there was no indication that Snape was doing anything but trying to keep the stone from Quirrel....different story.

Quirrel was never a Death Eater. Voldemort is 'dead.' There's no reason for Voldemort to suppose Snape assumes that Quirrel's theft attempt has any motive besides Quirrel's own greed.

It's confusing to explain....

[Sinistra]

Back to the original post, JKR made the statement about the cowardly one and one who will never return ambiguous for a reason. If she wanted to name the people, she would have.

We still don't know who Voldemort was refering to, and we may never know for sure. That's what makes the books really good. However, assuming Karkaroff and Snape is a bit naive, because she seems to be leading us to that conclusion, and we know when she has done that before (like Snape wanting to steal the Philosopher's stone) it's a big red herring. I treat this one as a red herring also, and keep looking for unlikely people who might fit those descriptions.

[Tomsk]

I don't think he would have showed him off to Harry...he'd have rather not told him he was there, so Harry would have no idea.

But he was going to kill Harry, so why not?

[Inkwolf]

Why would he bother showing Snape to Harry?

No point in making a fuss of Snape, who hadn't done a thing to help.

No point in exposing Snape as a DE to those present who might not have known yet: the more people who know the identity of a potential spy, the more vulnerable they are, and Snape was perfectly placed to spy on Dumbledore.

No point in showing Harry, it would hardly have narced him off, since he loathes Snape and Snape loathes him....which, in fact, Voldemort would probably have realized when he was in Quirrel's head.

[tree guardian]

I think the whole bit reguarding Snape and his D.E. status has be so dilberately vague from the begining that it makes one really wonder if Snape was actually there.

But if he was...he'd have to have a good stomache...to just be there and have to watch....bet he didn't know the Cedrick thing was going to happen.

(Yes I know the D.E.s got there afterward, Snape probably never saw the body until the dash for the exit, if at all.)

[Moonstone]

Was Snape at the graveyard among the Death Eaters? Not likely. But let's say Snape was there, and with Dumbledore's blessing. Does Dumbledore's need for information justify Snape standing around and allowing Voldemort to attempt to murder Harry? Dumbledore has admitted making poor decisions in order to protect Harry, decisions that meant Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice the safety of anonymous others for Harry's sake. Dumbledore would not want information at the cost of Harry's life.

If Snape was there without Dumbledore's approval, as a Death Eater in earnest, his absence would have been noticed. As it was, he was at Dumbledore and McGonagall's side when they charged in after Crouch to save Harry. As Picko pointed out, in order to apparate to the graveyard, Snape would have had to run (literally) from the school grounds, apparate to the graveyard, immediately leave upon Harry's escape and then dash back across the grounds, and catch up with Dumbledore.

As to why Voldemort should not trust Snape- well, Dumbledore did admit in front of 200 people at Karkaroff's trial that Snape had worked as his spy. Just because Voldemort has not attempted to carry out his death sentence yet does not mean he does not intend to. Voldemort has demonstrated patience in carrying out longterm plans before, as with the events at the Tri-Wizard Tournament.

[Inkwolf]

Originally posted by Moonstone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=418166#post418166))
But let's say Snape was there, and with Dumbledore's blessing. Does Dumbledore's need for information justify Snape standing around and allowing Voldemort to attempt to murder Harry?


Was there anything Snape could do against two dozen Death Eaters and Voldemort?

Re the trial, there may be some reason that it isn't taken seriously by the DE's. We don't know everything yet. Perhaps Snape was pretending to be a double agent, convincing Voldemort that he was sprying on Dumbles while pretending to spy FOR him. (Perhaps he really WAS a double agent...)

In any case, we'll never know what's really up til the next book.

[dog star]

Originally posted by Moonstone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=418166#post418166))
If Snape was there without Dumbledore's approval, as a Death Eater in earnest, his absence would have been noticed. As it was, he was at Dumbledore and McGonagall's side when they charged in after Crouch to save Harry. As Picko pointed out, in order to apparate to the graveyard, Snape would have had to run (literally) from the school grounds, apparate to the graveyard, immediately leave upon Harry's escape and then dash back across the grounds, and catch up with Dumbledore.


The above quote is a really good point though. Regardless of whether or not Snape had DD's blessing to be at the DE meeting, wouldn't it be sort of obvious that he was up to something if he was running around like a madman? Granted, yes, everyone was in a panic, but still...it seems like too contrived of a plot point to say that Snape was running around apparating here and there. Logistically, it doesn't make sense.

[lorna]

Interesting theory. Really only assumptions have made Snape the DE who left forever and Karkaroff the DE too cowardly to return. For all we know they could both have been standing in that graveyard. It's never been clear in the books.
The timing thing is a problem as is the question of Snape just "standing there " while Voldie attempted to murder Harry.
Unless he really is still working for Voldie......not my favorite idea.
So when are we getting book six again????

[Weatherby]

If it is Snape he must have gone through a lot to stay alive.
I'm also thinking it may not have been him afterall though.
Except for his involvement with the Sorcerer's Stone you wouldn't think Snape was working with Dumbledore at all.

[Kizz]

I'm surprised we haven't brought time turners into this - consider them offically in, but the regulation etc. blah blah blah (sorry ppls we have to get it out the way)...so he can't have used a time turner.

I doubt that Snape was there, in GoF Harry makes the comment when talking about if Snape killed Crouch Snr. "not unless he can turn into a bat or something" (~paraphased?)...it would explain a few things. But there was the thing at the end: Snape's mission - it could have been to go back to voldy (and get crucio'd). Karkaroff was pretty determined not to go back, I think if he would beleive he's a deadman (sense?) then he must know voldy would kill him.

[Siriusly]

I do not think that Snape was at the graveyard because as much as I detest Snape, he would have had to act to help him (unless of course he was using legilimens/occlumency) But Snape did try to protect Harry from Quirrel during quidditch, and as much as Snape can't stand Harry, I do not think he would allow someone to try and kill him. Of course in order for Harry to survive he has to learn as much as possible and Snape really does whatever he can to prevent that (harrassment in potions, constantly threatening expulsion, not teaching him occlumency).
This does raise two important questions in my mind: how is Snape getting away with no longer being a death eater? The death eaters must think he is still supporting them as a spy- why else wouldn't they kill him? And the second question is: who did Snape think was jinxing Harry's broom during the quidditch match? Why wasn't that investigated and precautions put around Harry?

[Moonstone]

as much as Snape can't stand Harry, I do not think he would allow someone to try and kill him.

Particularly since Snape, as a member of the Order and a trusted lieutenant of Dumbledore, probably understands better than most why it is important to keep Harry alive.

[Inkwolf]

But as Phineas Nigellus said, Slytherins are too smart to risk their own necks. Snape could hardly have gotten Harry out without getting himself killed.

[Tsar]

That being the case I doubt that Snape would go back to Voldemort after his actions in the PS

[Pucko]

JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.

Just because Dumbledore trusts him, doesn't mean he's so good. He's such a mysterious character - there's something going on with him. I like the idea about him being in the graveyard, but unlike what Tomsk said, I don't think he would have showed him off to Harry...he'd have rather not told him he was there, so Harry would have no idea.

what JK said keeps comeing back to me every time i try to think he really is good...maybe he's a double agent? that would make sense...both for the whole quirrel thing in book one (cuz snape must have figured out that he was posessed or something) and everything since the return of voldie...I agree with Tomsk, voldie would have shown him snape to mock him before he died. so it would matter if he knew or not because he was supposed to die

[EvilMeghan]

Going into the graveyard scene, Voldy knows (or has suspicions) about who may not be there when he calls. He knows about the three who died, those who are in Azkaban, and Snape, Karkaroff, and Crouch Jr. Voldy would most likely be shocked to see any of them there. So wouldn't he ask them about it? I personally don't think he would make a mental note to meet later with Snape in private. Wouldn't he rather make a big deal about how much Snape is helping his cause by being a spy (or so he thinks)?

With JKR there is always a possibility, but in this case she would have to come up with an amazing explanation. With all the running around Snape would have to had done, and the lack of a confrontation with Voldemort, it just doesn't seem to fit.

[LadyofthePensieve]

Hi,
I guess Snape was in the graveyard the very night Voldemort had risen again. We shouldn´t forget several Death Eaters were wearing masks while joining the meeting.
Something happened in the chapter "Priori Incantatem" which made me think that Snape probably had been there.
Harry was duelling with Voldemort and he shrieked Expelliarmus, while Voldemort shouted Avada Kedavra.
Then there happened the strange connection between the two wands and suddenly the music of Phoenix started and he could hear "Don´t break the connection."
We know now Snape is a superb Occlumens and the Phoenix played the music to protect Snape´s mental voice, so it couldn´t be heard by Voldemort, while Snape gave Harry instructions for surviving.
I know it´s sounds maybe a little bit strange but I got this idea long before the Occlumency thing happened in the 5.book, because I always assumed Snape has got this very special ability, even I hadn´t any proof for it.

Just some crazy thoughts of a Snape craze woman.

[voldies_counsellor]

This theory is interesting, but it would take a lot of explaining for it to be true

One thing I have thought is that people keep mentioning the JKR quote about keeping an eye on Snape. But she's hardly likely to say "Oh, no, he's not evil at all actually" is she? He is always a good character to use as a red herring as he is so mysterious and it would not come as a surprise if he was still working for Voldermort, but I don't think he is. I think JKR needs to keep us all on our toes.

[Isin Dule]

Snape could have been in the graveyard...

The one 'too cowardly to return' is Karkaroff.
The one 'left forever' is Bagman.

[EvilMeghan]

I don't think Bagman ever was a Dark Wizard. He gave information to Rookwood, but he thought that Rookwood was on the good side. Agreed on Karkaroff's role, though.

[FreyaCrescent]

I don't think Bagman was the one who "left forever". I doubt he was a Death Eater. He passed information to supporters of the Dark Lord.

I still don't think Snape was at the graveyard that night. Although the Occulmency theory could be quite true, and is convincing, I think Voldemort would have been able to recognise Snape under a mask. He could name the other Death Eaters in the circle. "The one who left forever" was Snape. He's a wanted man - you don't just leave the service of Voldemort or withdraw your support. It's a case of do or die.

No doubt the "cowardly" one is Karkaroff though.

[phoenixsong]

Ummm....what makes everyone so certain that Quirrel told Snape who he was working for?

Snape: See you're back again this year, Quirrel.
Quirrel: Yes, and I'm subcontracting for Voldemort, now!

Voldemort and Quirrel considered Snape useful as a diversion, and probably didn't let him into their plans. Snape realized what Quirrel was after, but might never have been told who Quirrel was after it for.
Hmm, this has got me to thinking again about the whole Quirrel/Voldemort/Snape triangle. We know from the scene in OotP when Ginny parallels her experience with Voldemort to Harry's, that she had no recollection of the times when she was possessed. Was it the same for Quirrell? Did he know that he was being possessed? Yes, Harry overheard a scene in which Quirrel was resisting Voldemort, but did Quirrel remember it afterwords? If not, then why would Voldemort not have come out to Snape? I suppose that if he doubted Snape's loyalty he wouldn't want to risk it, or perhaps Snape was important enough to Voldemort that he wanted to take the opportunity of his inhabiting Quirrel's body to really observe Snape and determine where, exactly his loyalties lay. So then the real question becomes: other than the sorceror's stone issue, did Snape do anything else in the course of that year that would have betrayed his (presumed) loyalty to Dumbledore? Quirrel would not have known about the counter-charm during the Quidditch match, but were there any other clues that Voldemort would have picked up on, things that couldn't be explained away afterwords by Snape's "double agent" act?

And as for Bagman, I am certain that he is not as innocent as he seems, and it is possible that he actually is a death eater, and his "bit of an idiot" act is just that.

One more point: I think it is worth emphasizing that Voldemort says that he believes that the Death Eater in question has left his service forever, and that uncertainty is what could sustain Snape's interaction with Voldemort.

[ashes]

One more point: I think it is worth emphasizing that Voldemort says that he believes that the Death Eater in question has left his service forever, and that uncertainty is what could sustain Snape's interaction with Voldemort.

Exactly! Or maybe, he's "the one too cowardly too return". Think about it: he's working at hogwarts, a school ran by the only wizard Lord Voldemort ever feared. Wouldn't it be logical for Voldemort to presume Snape is afraid of Dumbledorre? I think it's possible Voldemort is refering to Snape as "the coward". One thing I'm sure though: Snape did come to Voldemort afterwards, when Dumbledorre told him to go. It's very likely he had been crucio'd for being late when he returned, but i think Voldemort wouldn't find it that suspicious to think Snape is a spy. Snape is afterall a superb occlumens and there was no way LV could know what Snape being late is about..

[adonaichild]

It kinds of makes sense--the whole fact about how Lucius and Snape are still friends. I haven't heard a reasonalbe explanation yet, to why they are still friends, and no one has tried to kill him, and Inkwood offered somewhat of an explanation...however I do agree that Dumbledore couldn't just be like "yeah, you should let him off because he's a big help to me." He would have had to present evidence of Snape's innocence.

[FredRocksMySocks]

Actually, Ashes, I think Karkaroff was the one too cowardly to return. Remember, he fled. He only denounced Voldie when the MoM caught up with him. And out of fear of what Voldie might do when he found out, he didn't go back to him.

Snape was probably the one who "has left [him] forever". Whether or not he returned to Voldie directly after Harry came back and DD sent him, or he went to his DE buddies instead is yet to be seen. It's an interesting theory. I'm more inclined to think he's spying on Voldie indirectly through friends like Malfoy Sr. and Goyle Sr., but you never know.

[silver ink pot]

:grumble:

My only problem with Snape physically being there was Cedric's death. Although it happened so quickly that Snape probably couldn't have prevented it, how could Dumbledore and McGonagall sanction him seeing a student die and not coming to his defense? Not to mention Harry being tied to a headstone, put in severe pain, and then cut for the cauldron? If Snape was there and did nothing just to hide his identity, then he really is a coward.

I lean toward Snape being the one who will never return. Karkaroff seemed much more cowardly and nervous in GoF. I love the scene where Snape is blasting rosebushes apart to scare the smooching teenagers, and he's telling Karkaroff that he is staying at Hogwarts no matter what. He seems pretty cool and collected compared to Karkaroff.

I really can't explain his relationship with the Malfoys. Maybe now that Malfoy and his cronies are in Azkaban, at least for the time being, we will get some answers.

Maybe the voice that Harry heard during the duel with Voldemort was Dumbledore's or maybe it was one of his parents in spirit form. :rolleyes:

[toryvic]

This is such an interesting theory, it had never occured to me before. I don't actually reckon that Snape was in the graveyard though.
Firstly he would have had to hot foot it back to Hogwarts very quickly so that he could administer veritaserum to Crouch.
Secondly I know how passionately Snape hates Harry but would he watch Harry be tortured and chase him through a churchyard? Methinks not
The whole Voldy speech 'one has left us forever' (paraphrased) is fairly ambiguous but I don't think that he meant Snape. True he's playing the double agent role but I think that Voldy didn't expect SNape there so he just didn't mention him. If you remember in GoF when he told Karkaroff to flee but he wasn't going anywhere I think that that could have been a contract between him and the darklord, that he always remains at Hogwarts.
I've wondered before about the Quirrel thing and also supposedly the darklord 'always knows' when someone is lying so surely he knows if Snape is telling him porkies, presumably he's an occlumens too. Therefore is it possible that Snape is a baddie?

I don't think so but it could go either way

[ashes]

Actually, Ashes, I think Karkaroff was the one too cowardly to return. Remember, he fled. He only denounced Voldie when the MoM caught up with him. And out of fear of what Voldie might do when he found out, he didn't go back to him

I know it's most likely Karkaroff was "the coward", but then again it might be just JKR misleading us, because if Voldie really thought Snape left him forever, Snape would already be dead, and there would be no way he could spy on DEs. It's possible it's just a matter of time before LV kills him, but i don't think any of the death eaters would trust him and share informations with him if they knew( and they know) that their boss hates him and wants him dead... very unlikely....
just a theory anyways

[Angora]

Initially I would have said no, but after reading what everyone has to say, I'm not so sure.

My GoF is a little rusty and I don't have the book on me, but didn't Voldie summon the death eaters AFTER the whole cauldron bit? If so, there's a respectable chunk of time between Harry disapearing from the maze and Snape being summoned. If both Snape and Dumbledore had already made the connection between the dark mark coming back and Harry being in the tournament, then, from the exact moment all hell broke loose they would have both been half expecting Snape to be summoned.

Snape doesn't necessarily have to hoof it off the grounds after he gets summoned either. If he's standing right there in the middle of the chaos with Dumbledore, then Dumbledore might have had a way to get him off the grounds more quickly (if nothing else, we know he can make a portkey pretty effortlessly).

If I remember right, after Harry gets back to Hogwarts, Dumbledore's looking around the crowd and tells Harry to stay put for a minute (right before the Moody/Crouch kidnaps him). He could have been hanging back to see if Snape got back all right... and there is another respectable chunk of time between that and Snape showing up in the doorway.

So, I think the timing's possible.

I can buy that he might have stood there in indecision while Harry was duelling with Voldemort, although I wonder how far he would have let it go. And, when Harry was running away with his back to everyone, that was a good oportunity for someone to "accidentally" bump into some of his fellows while they're aiming - because isn't it lucky none of the curses managed to hit him.

I think it's possible. It's a neat idea.

I don't know if this counts as the same topic, but I've wondered if there's a connection between Snape and the death eater attack at the Quidditch match - just because of the similarities in the scenes with people being hung upside down.

[rayrayjohanna]

I don't think Snape was at the graveyard for all the reasons mentioned by the
others. But there was enough ambiguity with Voldie's "I believe has left us
forever" (was not quite sure) that perhaps Snape was able to suffer the
consequences of not responding immediately to the Voldemort summons. Both
Snape and Dumbledore were deadly serious when DD asked Snape to go off
on the unspecified dangerous mission.

I had always thought that mission was spying, but perhaps it was even more
dangerous and involved Snape returning to Voldemort with excuses for not
appearing immediately, ready to take his punishment. Voldie is skilled at
sensing lies, but Snape is equally skilled at occlumency.

Otherwise, why would any known death eaters associate in any way with Snape?
One thing has always bothered me. When Harry named names to Fudge at
the end of GoF, Snape shook his head or somehow seemed to be warning Harry
not to continue or elaborate once he mentioned Malfoy's name. A look of alarm,
I can't remember the wording. I actually wondered in Malfoy was not a true death
eater.

But Malfoy showed his true self in OotP, so I don't think there's a hidden side to
him.

[Capella]

This is a good idea, I've never considered the thought of Snape being at the graveyard. But it doesn't quite ring true for me. I can't get around the idea that if he was there, he'd really stand back and do absolutely nothing while Voldemort attempted to kill Harry, however much Snape hates him.

I'd rather think Snape left to join his 'master' after the conversation with DD in the hospital wing, told Voldemort he was still true to him, that the only reason he had not apparated when summoned was because he'd arouse DD's suspicions and that you can't disapparate from Hogwart's grounds anyway. Voldemort probably made him pay for not arriving sooner but accepted him back, as he had the other DEs. Thus he remains on good terms with his buddy Malfoy and can follow Voldemort's movements for the Order. There doesn't seem to have been enough time that night for Snape to stand around the graveyard after Harry'd left, probably receive instructions from an irate Voldemort, apparate back in Hogsmeade, run up the drive, find DD in a crowd full of people, go to Moody-Crouch's room... And all this in the time it takes for Harry to do just the latter. I don't think there was enough time for Snape to have managed it all.

[GryffindorKeeper]

Ummm....what makes everyone so certain that Quirrel told Snape who he was working for?

Snape: See you're back again this year, Quirrel.
Quirrel: Yes, and I'm subcontracting for Voldemort, now!

Voldemort and Quirrel considered Snape useful as a diversion, and probably didn't let him into their plans. Snape realized what Quirrel was after, but might never have been told who Quirrel was after it for.

Assuming Snape is still loyal to Voldemort and that he did manage somehow to get to the graveyard, I still can't see him opposing Quirrel the way he did even if Quirrel didn't tell him who he was working for. I'm pretty sure Snape would be smart enough to realize who Quirrel wanted the stone for.


Jennifer

[Severely Snapped]

A number of good points have been made about the time issues, so I can't add anything there. I don't believe Snape was in the graveyard, whether in Voldemort's service or, as Inkwolf was suggesting, in Dumbledore's. It's possible, but I don't personally believe it.

But with regards to who was the Death Eater who had left Voldemort "forever," I'm 99.9% sure it was Snape. I just don't understand why so many people think Voldemort would take Snape back under any circumstances, given what he must know about the man.

Does anyone truly believe that Snape just returned to the Death Eater inner circle, did the requisite groveling and took the requisite torture, and then Voldemort said, "Okay, Severus, even though:
a) you've been working for the only wizard I've ever feared for the last fourteen years, AND
b) that same wizard told hundreds of witnesses at Karkaroff's trial that you were his spy, AND
c) you assisted that same wizard in thwarting my friend Quirrell's attempts to steal the Stone, AND
d) you personally saved the life of the boy who ended my reign and nearly destroyed me forever...ah, what the hell? Good to have you back, lad! Sit down, Wormy can fill you in on what you missed."

I don't THINK so.

There's also something off-putting about the casualness with which people say things like, "Well, Snape probably went back and was probably tortured for being late, you know, but..." We've seen Crucio. We know what it does. Harry described it as the most incredible pain he could imagine...pain so bad he literally wanted to die. Would Dumbledore ask Snape (or anyone) to deliberately subject himself to something like that? And even if he did, would Snape's only reaction be to turn "somewhat paler" than usual? Again, I don't think so.

[Alison]

Angora, I really liked your post. It was very convincing.

I still don't see why it is a problem why Snape didn't show in the graveyard. Being at Hogwart's, he had a rock solid excuse for not coming, and the other death eaters may not have expected him. Malfoy, for example, was reported as being right in Voldemort's inner circle, which may not have been the case with Snape. I think Snape uses Malfoy as his main source of information about Voldemort, which is why they are still friends. Remember, Malfoy and many others lied their way out of Azkaban, so Dumbledore's testimony would not make them suspect Snape. Not to mention he hates Harry Potter, Voldemorts main enemy.

I don't really think Snape is on Voldemort's side, but the fact that he is a superb occlumens- read lier- makes me think anything is possible.

[Lestrange]

As Picko pointed out, in order to apparate to the graveyard, Snape would have had to run (literally) from the school grounds, apparate to the graveyard, immediately leave upon Harry's escape and then dash back across the grounds, and catch up with Dumbledore.


So, initially, the question is: Was Snape out of breath the night that Voldemort came back? :D

And why wouldn't Voldemort have shown Snape to Harry? Harry wasn't supposed to go into that graveyard and live to tell the tale. Voldemort thought that it would be the night that he killed Harry, why not show him that his teacher was actually an un-wavering supporter of Voldemort who was just biding his time? Everyone always telling him that Snape is trusted by Dumbledore, it would be like a slap in the face.

...Ditto to what Severely said. :)

Also, Voldemort would've known that Snape was trying to protect Harry (Quirrell knew about the counter-jinx on the broom), and it'd be a bit suspicious if he was trying to protect Harry and be a Death Eater at the same time (unless you'd like to go by Weasley logic and say that Dumbledore would've sacked Snape if he had let Harry die).

Oh, and I can imagine Snape arriving late...

"Hello, all. ...Did I miss anything?" "Crucio!"

[Ollivander]

I dont think we have enough facts yet and will have to wait for another book to come out.. I see arguements for both stories..

[phoenixsong]

I'm pretty certain that Snape wasn't there. I still think that the uncertainty expressed in Voldemort's "I believe he has left my service forever" is what it all hinges upon. Voldemort is not certain that Snape has betrayed him, whatever he might have seen when he was possessing Quirrel, and whatever Wormtail might have told him about conversations between Harry, Ron and Hermione. A person(?) who says, "Do not lie to Lord Voldemort, he always knows" is just being set up to be proved wrong. Or, perhaps being Voldemort, he feels that he can actually use Snape if he allows Snape to continue to spy on him.

Oh, and Lestrange, or anyone else who knows, can you tell me when we see Quirrel's knowledge that Snape used the counter-jinx during the Quidditch match? I had completely forgotten that, and it seems quite significant.

[EvilRaven]

There still seems to be a problem with the events of PS, where Snape clearly goes against Quirrell - who of course was possessed by Voldemort. One's got to wonder how Voldemort treats that - for a period of time Snape was the only thing standing in the way of Voldemort's return.


Well maybe Big V was out in the forbidden forest drinking unicorn blood at the time this occurred. :D

Maybe Voldemort could think that Snape was not aware that quirrel was taking the stone to big V ... but that would go against Snape's ability to legilimency so.... this brings me back to the graveyard. and i think that big V was talking about killing snape.

I think Voldemort has not killed Snape as of yet because he may want to try and get infomation from the order out of him, bidding his time untill he needs to.

[azkaban]

snape couldn't be gone to the graveyard and come back just after harry touched the portkey. because he can't apperate or disapparate on Hogwarts grounds!! (it's obvious that none of us has read Hogwarts: A History :D) maybe he touched his mark and went to the graveyard but there's no way he could come back to hogwarts by disapparating.
maybe the only wizards who know snape used to be a death eater are the ones in wizengamot? (was it spelled that way?) because even sirius didn't know that snape was a death eater in GoF, he told harry that snape's school friends from slytherin all turned out to be death eaters later but he didn't mention snape when he was listing their names.
considering his friendship with lucius malfoy and the way malfoy "speaks highly of him", i suppose the death eaters don't know that snape used to work for them. after all, they're all covered with hoods and masks when they're in Voldemort's presence, aren't they?
i wrote that before and say it again: i think snape must have done something so convincing that malfoy hasn't even doubted if he's been working for Dumbledore or not.

[phoenixsong]

considering his friendship with lucius malfoy and the way malfoy "speaks highly of him", i suppose the death eaters don't know that snape used to work for them. after all, they're all covered with hoods and masks when they're in Voldemort's presence, aren't they?
But Voldemort does call them by name as he's going around the circle ("lucius, my slippery friend..." etc).

i wrote that before and say it again: i think snape must have done something so convincing that malfoy hasn't even doubted if he's been working for Dumbledore or not.
Yeah, nasty as it is to think about, I think you may be right. Though Malfoy could also keep his doubts tightly under wraps.

[azkaban]

actually, snape and malfoy are the same. malfoy denies his past and doesn't admit that he worked for voldemort with his own will. and snape is denying that he's against voldemort and death eaters. maybe that's why they get along very well? :)
and in dumbledore's pensieve, karkaroff said that they didn't really know who was working for voldemort and who was not. the one who knew about everyone was only voldemort himself. maybe the reason malfoy doesn't know about snape is this?

[Polly]

As much as I would love Snape to have been there, I don't think he was - Voldemort was using Crouch Jr as a spy in Hogwarts, and if Snape was still properly with Voldemort, why didn't Voldemort just use Snape to put Harry's name in the goblet in the first place (so he wouldn't have had to bother using Crouch Jr)? Then again, if Snape was at the graveyard thenmaybe Voldemort didn't want to name him because he has bigger plans for him (?) & doesn't want the other DE to know <- they must be pretty angry @ Snape because theres a chance that they know that he was on Dumbledore's side (from his trial).
(sorry if someone's already said all this! xxx)

[Severely Snapped]

I'm pretty certain that Snape wasn't there. I still think that the uncertainty expressed in Voldemort's "I believe he has left my service forever" is what it all hinges upon. Voldemort is not certain that Snape has betrayed him, whatever he might have seen when he was possessing Quirrel, and whatever Wormtail might have told him about conversations between Harry, Ron and Hermione. A person(?) who says, "Do not lie to Lord Voldemort, he always knows" is just being set up to be proved wrong. Or, perhaps being Voldemort, he feels that he can actually use Snape if he allows Snape to continue to spy on him.


But if he's at all unsure about Snape, why let him live ? Why not kill him just to be safe? Look, I like Snape; I think he's very smart and a talented wizard, but I doubt that he's so all-fired powerful and important that Voldemort is going to take him back despite serious doubts as to his loyalty.

Actually, the second line of that quote seems to support this: "He will be killed, of course..." No uncertainty there, is there? Sounds like even if Lord Thingy IS on the fence about Snape's betrayal, he has no qualms about disposing of him just to be safe.

Oh, and Lestrange, or anyone else who knows, can you tell me when we see Quirrel's knowledge that Snape used the counter-jinx during the Quidditch match? I had completely forgotten that, and it seems quite significant.

Argh, I don't have my book. But it's at the end when Quirrel confronts Harry at the Mirror, and he tells Harry he was trying to knock him off his broom. He says something like, "And I would have succeeded, too, if my eye contact hadn't been broken by Snape's cloak catching on fire...even with Snape muttering his little counter-curse, trying to save you."

[phoenixsong]

But if he's at all unsure about Snape, why let him live ? Why not kill him just to be safe? Look, I like Snape; I think he's very smart and a talented wizard, but I doubt that he's so all-fired powerful and important that Voldemort is going to take him back despite serious doubts as to his loyalty.
On this, I just feel like we don't exactly know about the extent of Snape's relationship with Voldemort. It may be that Snape has other talents, or a deeper relationship with Voldemort than we know. I can't see Snape grovelling before Voldemort in the way that other DEs do, and I suspect that he and Voldemort may not have the typical master/slave relationship that Voldemort has with most DEs. I also can't help but to think of Snape's opening speech in PS/SS, with the "stopper death" comment, and how much it connects him to Voldemort's goal of immortality.

Actually, the second line of that quote seems to support this: "He will be killed, of course..." No uncertainty there, is there? Sounds like even if Lord Thingy IS on the fence about Snape's betrayal, he has no qualms about disposing of him just to be safe.
I don't know. It can't be an easy act, having to always maintain that Dark Lord persona. I think he would necessarily say this in front of all the DEs, to emphasize that he has no mercy.

And thanks for the PS/SS paraphrase regarding Quirrel. Quite right that he did know that Snape tried to save Harry.

[Angora]

Maybe Voldemort is letting Snape hang around in order to feed him misinformation, or just to play with him a bit before he dies - we know from the duel with Harry that Voldemort likes to do that kind of thing when he thinks he has the upper hand.

I can see maybe at some pivitol point in the last two books Lucius jumping up and saying "Snape, you fool, we've known all along you were a traitor!" And then we all look back on it and say, "Oooh, yeah. We should have seen that."

To be honest, I agree that Voldemort probably isn't stupid enough to think Snape's really on his side, but the whole thing is like the "I know that you know that I know that you know that I know..." game. So maybe Voldie's keeping him on so that, if the order thinks they already have a spy, they won't try to infiltrate him with someone he DOESN'T suspect.

[IThinkNot]

Wow! Cool thread, everyone! Many, many good points. When I first started reading I thought Snape couldn't have been in the graveyard. This has been effectively called into question by such cool discussion. However, I still think he wasn't there.

1) He couldn't have Apparated/Disapparated that quickly. However, this could be disproven--- house-elves can do it, and Dumbledore did say "Members of the Order have better methods of communicating than the fire in Delores Umbridge's office", which leads me to think maybe there are other methods of travel?

2) Voldemort mentioned someone who he believes "has left me forever... he will be killed, of course" which makes me think of Snape. There are only two books left to go. I don't think there will be any more momentous red herrings, sorry. This plot is so thick and complicated I can't see how it could get any more so. Who else could it be?

I guess I don't have many more reasons... proof is hard to come by with this.

We will see!

(accio book 6!) ;)

[velvetchs]

While I still don't think that Snape could have been in the graveyard, everyone raises some pretty interesting points. As to whether or not Snape returned to Voldemort's service, I don't think this is possible either. Since Crouch Jr. had already reentered Voldemort's service, isn't it possible he knew (or figured out) that Snape was working for Dumbledore as a spy? If he did or even suspected, wouldn't he have told Voldemort? Not revealing who the "one to cowardly to return" and the "one who he believes left his service forever" truly were should have been expected since not even the death eaters knew who each other were.

[Mad I]

Snape couldn't have been at the graveyard because one of the teachers would have noticed his abrupt leaving at the end of the Triwizard Tournament. Also, didn't Harry recognize, at least by name, all of the Death Eaters present at the graveyard?

[osupotter]

I know that this is a little off the wall - but what if Snape is the one Voldy is refering to as his most faithful servent? If this is the case - maybe Snape is fooling V., and that is why V is not trying to kill Snape - If Dumbledore knows about Snape still talking to V. or whatever, maybe that is why he knows or feels so strongly about Snape having converted to the good side again

Does this make since? Is it possible that V. could be so easily fooled by Dumbledore and Snape? Is it possible that Snape is telling V. that he is staying at Hogwarts to get the inside scoop there - and that he can't leave because it would look suspicious? because if he is telling V. this, then that would explain why V. isn't trying to kill Snape - also, on page 591, Harry and Snape are practicing Occlumency and Snape has just seen that Harry is still having dreams about the door - this is the quote

(Snape says) "...because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."
(Harry) "No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him"
(skip a paragraph)
(Snape says) "Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "that is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again..."


Could this quote be saying that Snape IS still a death eater in the eyes of Voldemort? That he IS still telling V. that he is with him? I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say - any thoughts on this approach to Snapes role?

[IThinkNot]

Oooh... very cool idea. I never thought of that. So, following that:

"My most faithful servant" = Snape
"One too cowardly to return" = Karkaroff
"One who I believe has left me forever" = ??????

Crouch Jr. could have been left out. Perhaps he would be too loyal a servant, too close to Voldemort's inner plan, to be revealed to everyone else. Voldemort's secret weapon, so to speak? Better off kept secret from everyone?

Cool... my mind is certainly working hard tonight!

[LoveHermione]

As a final point, lets say Snape was at the graveyard. Who, then was the person who Voldemort "believe has left me forever?" Any ideas?

Of course, In the pensieve we see that Karkaroff gives names of several Death Eaters to escape imprisonment. This is public knowledge. So Voldemort says that Karkaroff "has left us forever.." and Snape "is too cowardly to return... and he will pay".

[IThinkNot]

Previously I was thinking it was the other way around... Snape was the leaving one, Karkaroff was the cowardly one. "He fled tonight. He felt the Mark burn on his arm, and he had betrayed too many to be sure of a welcome back into the fold." (Snape, GoF, when he shows Fudge the truth.) That led me to think it was always Karkaroff being cowardly...

[EvilMeghan]

I don't think Snape made his "loyalties" known to Voldy until after the rebirthing. Snape has the whole Occlumency thing going for him, and he can lie his way out of anything, therefore re-entering Voldy's services, but he is really Dumbledore's spy on the Death Eaters. I am positive that Snape is the "left forever" DE, but was not killed after Snape gave all his made-up explanations. He was probably Crucioed, but he knew what to expect. Snape, as much as I hate him and wish to call him stupid, is a very smart fellow.

[Snaped]

It is possible that Snape is still working as a spy for the Order, all signs point towards that assumption. He is obviously skilled at Occlumency. Why else would Dumbledore have him teach it to Harry? He must have had to practice an awful lot to feel confident that Voldemort isn't aware of his real intentions.

There are many different ways Snape's character could turn in the next two books. It's really impossible to know for sure which side he's on until we read the next book.

Something I'm very curious to know is the answer to this (excerpt taken from The Goblet of Fire):

"What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?"

Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds, and then said, "That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself."

What was it that caused Dumbledore to trust Snape? Hmm.. I can't wait to find out. :D

[IThinkNot]

Prior to Order of the Phoenix, I never liked Snape. I do now. For him to able to successfully decieve Voldemort through Occlumency and good thinking, to work for the Order, and to "turn spy for us, at great personal risk" (to quote Dumbledore), and still be the dark, humorless, cynical, angry and bitter man he is--- hot d*mn!

Off-topic, I know. Please continue with the discussion, never mind me... :)

[Severely Snapped]

I know that this is a little off the wall - but what if Snape is the one Voldy is refering to as his most faithful servent?

I'm positive the "most faithful servant" is Crouch Jr. Because Voldemort continues with "He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived here tonight..."

As Crouch was the one who arranged for Harry to be delivered to Voldemort, that last would seem to be a reference to him.

Don't forget, however, at the time we read that line in GoF, we are supposed to be suspecting several people, Karkaroff, Snape and Ludo Bagman chief among them. I STILL maintain that's the only reason JKR didn't have Voldie use names there--she had to protect her shocker ending. She wasn't about to have LV say, "Karkaroff, too cowardly to return...Snape, who I believe has left me forever...oh, and yes, Barty Crouch, Jr., my most faithful servant."

In other words, this whole "six missing Death Eaters" passage WAS a red herring...but it was a red herring for Book 4 only.

[FredRocksMySocks]

SS, I think she was also trying to induce some speculation and debating amongst her fans. Keep em guessing. Seems to be a favorite pasttime of hers. :)

[Severely Snapped]

SS, I think she was also trying to induce some speculation and debating amongst her fans. Keep em guessing. Seems to be a favorite pasttime of hers. :)

Maybe. I don't think that was the case here, though.

Still...in the immortal words of Loz: that JK is really a cow sometimes, isn't she? :p

[silver ink pot]

I always have trouble reading Snape's body language in Goblet of Fire, during the scene in the Hospital wing when Fudge is denying the return of Voldemort. On page 706, US edition, Harry says:

"Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out of bed again, but Mrs. Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy --"

Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge.

Now, what do you all think? Was Snape trying to get Harry to shut up? Was Snape reacting to the fact that Malfoy was with the Deatheaters? Or was he afraid Harry saw HIM there in the graveyard and was going to tell Fudge? Hmmm, I can't decide. :no: :agree:

[Loz]

Woohoo - I've been quoted :D Heh - that was a shock... I open up to the last page and see my name :elaugh: I'm a celebrity. I believe I said "That JK is a real cow sometimes, isn't she?" however...

*ahem*

Anyway... I'm actually with what SS has said in her post before about JKR not using the names because it would be a spoiler for what was to come.

On the other hand... I think there could be a way Snape isn't that other person who's gonna get killed, but that seems unlikely as Voldie must know by now that he is on the good side. He might have been in the graveyard, but I think it's unlikely.

As regards Snape's movement in the hospital scene - I think it was probably a mixture of shock and disbelief.

[RusskieGirl]

"What made you think he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort, Professor?"

Dumbledore held Harry's gaze for a few seconds, and then said, "That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself."


I think you've brought up a great point! Dumbledore doesn't appear to be easily fooled and always seems to have his reasons for doing things. So far he has never been wrong (except for not telling Harry what was really going on in OotP). So his reason for trusting Snape must be good. If Snape has been in contact with Voldie, it would only be as a spy for the Order and his Occlumency skill would certainly help him there. But I also can't imagine Voldie just trusting him and taking him back in as a DE. I just have a feeling he'd see through something like that.

But that then leaves the question, how else is he spying on the DE's?
:huh:

[phoenixsong]

Unlike Hermione, Dumbledore's trust of Snape isn't quite good enough for me. Dumbledore has been wrong before. Look at what happened with the Potters and the first Order. Apparently Dumbledore did not know that Peter was the spy. He did not know that James, Sirius and Peter decided to mix up the fidelius charm a bit. If there was a known spy in the Order, wouldn't Dumbledore have been on extra high alert? Then why didn't he spot anything? Either he deliberately allowed events to take the course he did, or he was fooled.

And if Dumbledore can be fooled by the likes of Wormtail (if indeed he was), then why not Snape?

[IThinkNot]

Snape's movement in the hospital wing was because he was once a Death Eater and didn't want Harry to go shouting that out before Snape was ready for Fudge to hear it. Nothing said afterwards could have been believed if Fudge's distrust was deepened even further by Snape's past. Of course, Fudge had to have it proven to him but that was something Snape had to do in his own time. Does that make sense?

[Severely Snapped]

Unlike Hermione, Dumbledore's trust of Snape isn't quite good enough for me. Dumbledore has been wrong before. Look at what happened with the Potters and the first Order. Apparently Dumbledore did not know that Peter was the spy. He did not know that James, Sirius and Peter decided to mix up the fidelius charm a bit. If there was a known spy in the Order, wouldn't Dumbledore have been on extra high alert? Then why didn't he spot anything? Either he deliberately allowed events to take the course he did, or he was fooled.

And if Dumbledore can be fooled by the likes of Wormtail (if indeed he was), then why not Snape?

Lots of reasons. Wormtail was (presumably) a Gryffindor, and supposedly one of James Potter's best buds. Dumbledore had absolutely no reason NOT to trust him. Snape, on the other hand, came to Dumbledore as the Slytherin Dark Arts whiz kid and a tattooed, dyed-in-the-wool Death Eater. Dumbledore had no reason to trust him at all. But he does. Which means whatever convinced DD must have been very convincing indeed.

[phoenixsong]

That may well be, I do agree that Snape must have shown Dumbledore convincing evidence. I just think that it is important to bear in mind that Dumbledore is NOT infallible. If in the year before Voldemort attacked the Potters the Order knew that there was a spy and it was someone close to the Potters, then there was every reason to suspect it could be Wormtail, since we know that the Marauders even suspected one another (that's why Sirius and James didn't tell Lupin what they were doing with the Fidelius Charm), and presumably the Marauders trusted one another even more than Dumbledore trusted them.

[Capella]

I agree with phoenixsong. Dumbledore is not omnipotent. Snape obviously has the skills to lie undetected. But who's to say he really is using this ability on Voldemort? He could just as easily be fooling Dumbledore into thinking he's on the side of good.
Well, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't really believe Snape is on Voldemort side - but he *could* be. Hermione's unwavering faith in Dumbledore isn't good enough for me to completely trust Snape.

Anyway, I think if Snape returned to Voldemort *after* the graveyard scene on DD's orders, that Voldemort would actually accept him back. Is there that much of a difference between Snape working as a Hogwarts teacher alongside DD and Lucius as a Hogwarts governer alongside DD? Voldemort accepted Lucius, so I'd imagine he'd accept Snape back too - though he might keep an eye on him for a while.

[IThinkNot]

Snape has much that he has to watch out for.

[ana_banana]

I think Snape is fooling us all. I first thought he was bad, then he's good, then I dont really know, then I think he's good....
Remember that when Harry first saw Snape, he felt pain in his scar, and I have a feeling it wasn't just becuz Snape was a DE...

[Severely Snapped]

I think Snape is fooling us all. I first thought he was bad, then he's good, then I dont really know, then I think he's good....
Remember that when Harry first saw Snape, he felt pain in his scar, and I have a feeling it wasn't just becuz Snape was a DE...

Harry's scar burned at that time because Quirrell, who was talking to Snape, had the back of his head facing Harry. The same back of his head to which Lord Voldemort had temporarily hitched a ride.

If in the year before Voldemort attacked the Potters the Order knew that there was a spy and it was someone close to the Potters, then there was every reason to suspect it could be Wormtail, since we know that the Marauders even suspected one another (that's why Sirius and James didn't tell Lupin what they were doing with the Fidelius Charm), and presumably the Marauders trusted one another even more than Dumbledore trusted them.

A very fair point. On the other hand, wouldn't such a shocking betrayal (DD thought it was Sirius, not Peter, but it would be shocking in either case) make Dumbledore even MORE wary of whom he could trust?

To me, Snape turning back to the Dark Lord would make Dumbledore more than merely fallible--it would make him a total idiot. It's clear from the importance of the assignments DD has given Snape--double agent, Occlumency teacher, etc.--that his trust is substantial. And that much trust betrayed would make DD, in my eyes, dumber than mud.

[nightingale]

^^ True, but DD was also the one who assigned Dung Fletcher to watch Harry, while he was at Privet Drive, and I'm sure he knew what Dung was like...Anyways, considering that Dumbledore has been quite wrong or simply ignorant, as he is human, of things, at times, I don't think I can trust Snape simply because Dumbledore does. Along with everything that has been said, he didn't realize anything wierd going on with Quirrell, until the end, I believe, in PS/SS, but Snape did (<-- maybe DD didn't know Quirrell too well or something), nor did he realize that there was anything wierd going on with Moody/Crouch, who was supposed to be an old friend, in GoF. Now, I know that Crouch forced information about Moody from, well, Moody, so that him being Moody would fool even, Dumbledore, which it did, again, until the end, but still. I think he just likes to see the best in people, give them second chances, as Moody/Crouch says in GoF, I believe. Moody/Crouch also says that he doesn't think so (to Snape, when they are in a hallway, with Harry stuck under the stairs in his invisibility cloak, sorry I can't remember the exact page, and I haven't got my book on me), and that he believes that some spots don't come off. Now I know this has been speculated already, why would Moody say such a thing? But it wasn't Moody who said it, it was Crouch, a DE (who considers all the DE's running free traitors), so what exactly did he mean?

EDIT: ^^ I don't mean to imply that I think Snape is positively evil (I'm actually quite unsure of where his loyalties lie, although, I'm leaning towards the "good" side, when it comes to being in cahoots with Voldemort.), I was just wondering what he (Crouch) meant, aside from the literal meaning, of course, as Snaped mentions below.

[Snaped]

Now I know this has been speculated already, why would Moody say such a thing? But it wasn't Moody who said it, it was Crouch, a DE (who considers all the DE's running free traitors), so what exactly did he mean?

I always kept Snape's Dark Mark in mind when Crouch Jr. says that, but the underlying message of his statement isn't lost on me. There's certainly a chance that Snape isn't reformed from his old ways, but there's an equal chance that he is. Rowling is obviously using statements like those to keep us suspicious of Snape, so that we really won't know for sure until she decides it's time. I, for one, think it would be pointless for Snape's character to exist if it turned out he was nothing but evil. What would be Rowling's message behind that? Don't trust anyone who's mean at all to be a good person at heart? Talk about pessimistic.

Revealing Snape to be Mr. Evil Guy would also make the whole mystery behind Dumbledore's trust of Snape a moot point too. I just don't see it happening that way.

[LadyofthePensieve]

Hi,
hehe! If Snape really would be revealed as an evil character, he must be much more evil and worse than Voldi ever had been, would be funny I suppose.
I am curious to find out.

[FredRocksMySocks]

Ahem! No! Snape is NOT more evil than Voldie. (For supporting arguements, check out the 87 paged AASS thread, as I am too lazy to type it all out!)

I agree with Snaped in JKR probably just wants to keep us on our toes.

[LadyofthePensieve]

Hi FredRocksMySocks,

don´t worry. I was just kidding.

But try to imagine how difficult it must be having DD´s trust and Voldi´s trust. Snapey maybe tries to play the two old guys off gainst each other, would be evil, wouldn´t it? And that for his own satisfaction and just for reaching his insane and evil plans for Harry Potter, who knows??

What did JKR say about Snape? He isn´t too nice.

grins

[nightingale]

You know, I've read a lot of posts saying that Snape being evil would just be too cliche, but then again wouldn't him being "good" in the end be a cliche, as well? He's the mean guy who the protagonist of the story thinks is evil, doesn't trust, etc., but who ends up helping out the protagonist in the end. Of course there are people who won't like Harry that are "good", I mean, not every person that's nasty to him is going to be a loyal supporter of Voldemort, but some are. Snape has never actually done anything that would lead someone to believe that he's working for Voldemort. On the contrary, he's saved Harry's life in PS, was the only thing standing between Voldemort <--did he even know?/Quirrell getting the PS in PS, checked on Sirius in OoTP, gave fake Veritaserum to Umbridge in OoTP, went on that task at the end of GoF, and all these things should lead us to believe that he is, in fact, on the "good" side, but for many people they don't. I'm sure if he wasn't so nasty to Harry, most people would have no trouble believing that he was, indeed, "good", at least, until they figured out in GoF that he's a former DE, which I might add he had no reason for revealing in front of everyone, besides trying to convince Fudge that Dumbledore's not making up lies. People make mistakes that they spend their lifetime trying to repent for, yet, some never repent at all. So what path has Snape chosen? He could have simply done all those things to gain Dumbledore's trust, to bide his time until Voldemort returned. Sirius does say something to the extent of Dumbledore trusting Snape, but him (Sirius) knowing better in OoTP. I know, I know, Sirius isn't exactly the most reliable source when it comes to Snape, and what he's saying is probably out of spite, but this is the second time someone's said something like this (Moody/Crouch), so is there an underlying meaning, or just two old school pals having a friendly chat, in Sirius's words...

As to what the original topic of this post asks, sure, I think Snape could've been at the graveyard. I know apparation on Hogwarts grounds is illegal, but that's not the only way to travel. There are things, i.e. ways of transportation, that we don't know about the magical world, yet. I mean, we didn't know about time turners until PoA, Polyjuice Potion in CoS, I'm not sure when we were introduced to portkeys, we didn't know about floo powder until CoS, etc. (Or he could've simply used floo powder to get to his own house, and then apparated from there <--lengthy process, I know, but hey..) And about the teachers noticing him gone, well, yes, they probably would have, under normal circumstances, but they're would've been a bit o' chaos going on when they figured out that two of their champions had disappeared from the maze, and Snape could've used that to his advantage to. If they did notice, however, and went to Dumbledore about it later, he would have explained it to them somehow, not lied necessarily, but not given out all the details, as Dumbledore would've thought that Snape was going to spy for them. Or maybe, that's what his task was at the end of GoF (I think someone mentioned this already), going to Voldemort to explain that it would've been too suspicious if he'd left at that particular moment, and that he was still loyal to him...

[Death_Eater]

I actually like this theory. It would explain kind of what Snape's mission is like.

But....now..this is just a theory, so don't jump all over me or anything, lol

What if people actually can apparate and disapparate in the Hogwarts grounds? The only word we have is from Hermione who said she read it in "Hogwarts: A History." But, as Lockhart once said "books can be misleading." It's kind of like....hrmm...people don't attempt to apparte/disapparte into the Hogwarts grounds, because they think they can't, when they really could. That could explain if Snape was at the graveyard. But, thats just a theory on how he could have been there, if indeed he was. ^_^;;

[harp230]

Or maybe there is a way for humans to apperate and disapperate that is just not too well known. If anyone would know it would be members of the order.

[roberto]

Or he could use the Floo Network (which acts quickly) and then apperate. However if Voldemort knows that Snape is at Hogwarts, he knows that Snape cannot come right away.

[jordmundt6]

I don't think that it's just that Apparation at the Hogwarts grounds is illegal, but that it's impossible (for humans anyway). House elves aren't a threat so the castle hasn't been insulated against their magic. This could make Kreacher a powerful ally of the DEs.

Yes, Snape could have been there, but wouldn't he have had to speak at least once (when crawling on the ground and kissing Voldemort's foot?) And wouldn't Harry have recognized his voice just like he recognized Lucius' voice? Of course, maybe he went through the motions without speaking and Voldemort simply ignored him. That's quite possible. If Snape had been the missing man, I think he would have been dead early in Book 5. Could it have been Sirius? Just being wild, I know. But go with me--what if he joined up after he heard his brother had to keep tabs on him and then couldn't protect Regulus when it came time to pay the piper? :banghead:

So the question remains open who has "left me forever" according to Voldemort?

[UselessCharmMaster]

Quirrel didn't have to tell Snape...Snape was suspicious anyhow, and seemed to be tailing Quirrel's every move. The encounter in the Forbidden Forest would seem to seal the deal, since Snape was standing in the way of Quirrel/V getting the stone. If I were Voldemort in the back of Quirrel's head at that point in time, I know I would have wondered about Snape's loyalties then. And, in any case, if V still thought Snape was loyal to the DEs, why not enlist his help, instead of having him working against you? Or at least let him know what's going on so he won't try to stop you, even if he doesn't offer any assistance.

It will be quite confused... but let's try: Snape didn't know Voldie was with Quirrel. And Quirrel wasn't a Death Eater, he'd just met Voldie somewhere. Snape could pretend he was trying to stop Quirrel without knowing he was also working for V-Thing (and maybe also - that he was protecting the Stone for Voldie's later use).

And I have the impression that till the graveyard scene Voldie wasn't sure which DE's are still loyal to him - using the Dark Mark he called them all to see who would come.

[story]

Snape could be Avery? We really know nothing about him.

[Death_Eater]

Or as someone said earlier, and what I still like. He was one whom Voldemort passed without speaking to them.

[lorna]

I think it possible that Snape was in the graveyard, I don't think it's probable. And I mostly think that because of DD comment to Snape in
GoF "and you know what I must ask you to do." If making contact with the DEs is it, that comment doesn't sound to me like Snape had done it yet. If he was in the graveyard, contact would have been made prior to DD's comments.

[roberto]

Snape could have easily explained him not being there saying that he was in the presence of various other officals, he couldn't apperate, could run off (raise questions). I agree if Snape had turned his back on Voldemort he would have either been killed or his relationship with Lucius would not be what it was.

[zoeydsngwrtr]

I am curious as to what Voldemort thinks of Snape trying to stop him in th Sorcerers stone, and if he knows anything about Snape's betrayel. Up until I read book five, I just figured that Snape was one of the one's that had to be killed, (I forget the direct quote). After reading book five and finding out that Snape was still getting information for the OOTP, I decided that Snape was one of the one's passed over, there were al lot more DE's there that were mentioned in the book, Voldemort had to have had more followers than that, remember, his followers weren't just from England. I highly doubt that they were all caught or exposed, so yes, I believe that Snape was there, but not really important enought for Voldemort to say much to him.

[story]

There is mention of Harry being out numbered 30 to 1, and Voldie walking past many death eaters, so plenty of choice. I just wounder if Snape's mission is not directly connected to the death eaters, perhpas it is like Hagrid's with a different group?

[Severely Snapped]

Snape could have easily explained him not being there saying that he was in the presence of various other officals, he couldn't apperate, could run off (raise questions). I agree if Snape had turned his back on Voldemort he would have either been killed or his relationship with Lucius would not be what it was.

But NOTHING is "easily explained" to Voldemort! He doesn't even accept truthful, verifiable explanations (i.e., "I was fighting with the animagus Black") from a DE who proved her loyalty by going to Azkaban for him. So why in the name of Dumbledore would he listen to Snape babbling some nonsense about not being able to Disapparate from work?

And I don't get this automatic assumption in some circles that Snape should be dead already if Voldemort knows he's a traitor. Snape lives and works at Hogwarts, which we are told is one of the safest places in the wizarding world, and he does so under the auspices of Albus Dumbledore, the only wizard Voldemort has ever feared. It's not as though Voldemort can simply walk up to Snape in the middle of a class and murder him. And Snape certainly knows to watch his back--he's done this spy thing before, after all, and obviously he survived.

As for Snape's relationship with Lucius, we frankly don't know jack about it. We don't know what Lucius knows. We don't know what Voldemort has told him. Until we do, we can't assume that Lucius knows Snape's a traitor, even if Voldemort does.

(BTW, roberto, I'm not trying to pick on you or your post. :) A lot of other people have said the same things, too, and I'm just responding to all of them.)

[v@sh]

I haven't read all 4 pages of this thread merely because it is too long for me to go through them from the start. I'll give my view point anyway:

Snape is definately a character in the books who has many hidden mysteries behind him we do not know as of yet. But did he return along Voldemort and his supporters? I don't he did because there is enough information that can be deducted to show that he wasn't there. Despite Snape's evil treatment of students and him being a former death eater doesn't remain he still is one.

Firstly Voldemort shows that there are 2 missing people in his inner circle, one is a coward that fled and will be killed (Karkaroff) and one that has left him forever and will also be killed (IMO Snape). If Voldemort knew that Karkaroff fled, than for him not to know that Snape is working for DD would be surprising. Sure Snape is excellent at Occulumency and Legilimens but I don't think he would be more powerful than Voldemort for a second in this field. However, his skills would work others such as Lucious Malfoy etc. and while he may be a still a friend of Lucious's we do not know how much contact there is between them even if Snape still is his friend. So thats all pure speculation. I seriously doubt Snape was at the graveyard.

My theory is that someone overheard the first part of the prophecy (a death eater though not Snape), and that death eater went to report to Voldemort what he had overheard, Snape caught on when the death eater reported this and managed to hear Voldemort's plans to go after the Potters after he deduces the probability of it being Neville or Harry. Snape, still in debt of James because James saved his life, goes to DD to warn him of the attack.

Though it is too late, DD recognises Snape truly is one not to kill muggles or wizards and he risked his life to save the Potters - he may ill-treat his students and scorn them etc. but killing people, i doubt it - and by that DD gives Snape his second chance by offering him a job at Hogwarts. As for Snape constantly wanting the job as DADA professor, I think his betrayal to the Voldemort and his supporters he might think there would some backlash against him or in time Voldemort will return again.

Snape is already skilled in the Dark Arts, so why not teach a subject which counters this when it will be needed in the future? Adding to this I think Snape's treatment toward both Harry and Neville was also influenced from this because they were the ones that got him into that situation along with his schoolday grudge with James Potter. This theory should go into the other forum and it is a little OT but it corresponds to why I think Snape wasn't in the graveyard.

[Kassandra Amparo]

I do not think Snape was ever in the graveyard because of two reasons:

1- If Snape was in the graveyard,then why did Dumbledore need Harry to tell him every single detail of what happened when he was with Voldie in the graveyard? Of course Snape wouldn't know anything about Cedric's death and the Flesh-Blood-Bone thing, because the Death Eaters hadn't yet arrived when those events happened,but Snape should of known all about the duel between Harry and Voldemort,the wand connection and all the other things that happened after the DEs had all arrived. So after Harry had told DD all about the re-birth of Voldemort and the arrival of the Death Eaters,why didn't DD just let him rest and ask Snape to tell him the rest ?

2-In the end of the book, when they were trying to convince Fudge that Voldemort had returned to his power, if Snape was in fact there,in the graveyard,why didn't he just tell Fudge about that? Fudge knew that Snape had been acting as a spy for the Order, so why didn't Snape tell him that he was there,he saw Voldemort with his own eyes,instead of showing him the unclear Dark Mark on his forearm ?

[story]

If SNape was in the graveyard Dumbledore would still need to hear from Harry how Voldemort got his body back, and they may not want too many people knowing Snape is posing as a DE. But all that said, still believe Snpae is not spying as a DE but some other way?

[v@sh]

If SNape was in the graveyard Dumbledore would still need to hear from Harry how Voldemort got his body back, and they may not want too many people knowing Snape is posing as a DE. But all that said, still believe Snpae is not spying as a DE but some other way?

Would DD really need to hear from Harry how Voldemort got his body back? Voldemort clearly explains how he managed to get his body back in a step by step process, yet while Harry may fill DD on the finer pointer, Snape could of told most of it if he was there. Which I think he wasn't anyway.

But I agree with the last part that Snape is spying not as a DE but some other way which we don't know of yet.

[cruplover]

Would DD really need to hear from Harry how Voldemort got his body back? Voldemort clearly explains how he managed to get his body back in a step by step process, yet while Harry may fill DD on the finer pointer, Snape could of told most of it if he was there. Which I think he wasn't anyway.

But I agree with the last part that Snape is spying not as a DE but some other way which we don't know of yet.

I'm not sure what Snape is doing, but I'm inclined to believe he wasn't in the graveyard. I believe he might be at least posing as a double agent, which would explain everything; Lucius and the other DEs wouldn't be suspicious, and he would have a good reason not to rush to Voldemort's side every time. However, I don't think that Dumbledore's interest in Harry's story proves anything other than good data collection. Everyone remembers different details, and everyone remembers details differently. So, no matter what DD knew, I'm sure he wanted to hear Harry's version.

[Kassandra Amparo]

I'm not sure what Snape is doing, but I'm inclined to believe he wasn't in the graveyard. I believe he might be at least posing as a double agent, which would explain everything; Lucius and the other DEs wouldn't be suspicious, and he would have a good reason not to rush to Voldemort's side every time.

We had a discussion on Lucius and Snape' relationship in another thread,and there was a theory that the Death Eaters didn't know anything about each other,unless they were friends or relatives. Voldemort is the only who knows everything about his Death Eaters,he alone knows who is still in his service and who is not .Remember when he was telling them about 6 missing Death Eaters in the inner circle, he only said a loyal servant had already entered his service,one was too coward to return and one who he believed had left him forever, Voldie didn't mention their names, so it's possible that Lucius and the other DEs do not know that Snape has switched side and been acting as a spy for Dumbledore, they still think that Snape is a Death Eater and have no suspicions of him.

However, I don't think that Dumbledore's interest in Harry's story proves anything other than good data collection. Everyone remembers different details, and everyone remembers details differently. So, no matter what DD knew, I'm sure he wanted to hear Harry's version.

I agree that everyone remembers differently,but Dumbledore knew that Harry was exhausted,he really needed a good rest,it wouldn't harm anyone if DD let Harry have a rest first,listened to Snape's version of the story and then when Harry got better,he could tell him about the other details that he wished to know.

One more thing i've just remembered is the Pensieve. If Snape was in the graveyard,then,that means he'd be able to place that memory into a Pensieve and it'd be much easier for Dumbledore to collect information using Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve. He wouldn't need Harry to tell him the whole thing.

[nightingale]

Well, if DD had stopped Harry in mid-story and told him to rest, Harry would have felt something was wrong, and I believe that Dumbledore is keeping it a secret that Snape's spying for him (which would also explain why they didn't tell Fudge) because then Snape's life would be at risk, unless, of course, Voldemort already knows, which could lead to an entirely new discussion. And he most probably wants the story from Harry's point of view, as well, which would be more consistent, considering that he was there for the whole thing, and which would also give Harry a chance to vent. All I'm saying is that we don't even know for sure now that Snape is spying on Voldemort for the Order because if he is, it's going to be kept a secret, otherwise, there really is no purpose in calling it spying, even Harry isn't told. Of course, old Snape could have been at the graveyard to satisfy his own reasons...

[GravisX]

Okay... let's not forget that when Snape got his 'burn' or whatever he was on Hogwart's Grounds, which was crowded, and w/ Dumbledore. During the graveyard scene Voldemort could think that Snape isn't coming back...

But, later in the Hospital Wing Dumbledore sends Snape away and says, something to the extent of "You know what I'm asking you to do" I can just picture Snape skulking away and apparating to Voldemort from Hogsmeade. Once in the presence of Voldemort I can see Snape (using his Occlumency skills) bowing before Voldemort and saying, "I'm sory my Lord, but I couldn't get away. I've weasled my way into their strong-hold, I've gotten that fool Dumbledore to trust me. I'll be able to help you so much now master, I'll be able to bring you Harry Potter... "

And Voldemort takes him back... b/c Snape couldn't come... and Snape could also confirm that Karkaroff was chicken and ran away... and it would be hard for Voldemort to send away a spy... a spy so close to all of his enemies...

I don't know... I guess the whole thing makes perfect sense to me.

[nightingale]

^^ Yeah, that was speculated, and I think it's more likely the case than him being at the graveyard because it does make sense.

[Hpmons]

It a nice theory, but I dont believe it.

- Voldemort must have noticed Snape going against Quirrell in book 1.
- Voldemort didnt talk to Snape (assuming he was there) in the graveyard
- In the third task, there were several people watching the thrid task who would see Snape leave, and you cant apparate in the Hogwarts grounds
- Why did Dumbldore ask for Harrys version of the story in the graveyard, if Snape could have?
- Dumbledore only says "You know what I must ask you to do" after the eents in the graveyard.

Although I believe Snape is good, and throughout three years of reading GoF I have always believed he is the one that will never return, now Im slightly less certain. But my belief, is that if Ron says Snape is evil, Snape is good (which totally contradicts my statements that Ron is a Seer...But anyway...)

[cruplover]

Okay... let's not forget that when Snape got his 'burn' or whatever he was on Hogwart's Grounds, which was crowded, and w/ Dumbledore. During the graveyard scene Voldemort could think that Snape isn't coming back...

But, later in the Hospital Wing Dumbledore sends Snape away and says, something to the extent of "You know what I'm asking you to do" I can just picture Snape skulking away and apparating to Voldemort from Hogsmeade. Once in the presence of Voldemort I can see Snape (using his Occlumency skills) bowing before Voldemort and saying, "I'm sory my Lord, but I couldn't get away. I've weasled my way into their strong-hold, I've gotten that fool Dumbledore to trust me. I'll be able to help you so much now master, I'll be able to bring you Harry Potter... "

And Voldemort takes him back... b/c Snape couldn't come... and Snape could also confirm that Karkaroff was chicken and ran away... and it would be hard for Voldemort to send away a spy... a spy so close to all of his enemies...

I don't know... I guess the whole thing makes perfect sense to me.

That makes sense! Perhaps DD and Snape had discussed the possibility of such a plea, but had hoped they would never need it. Certainly, after Harry's graveyard tale, Snape's life could be in danger, since he didn't answer the call. It also fits with my notion that Snape *must* be at least pretending to be a double agent.

However, I don't buy that the other DEs don't know each other. They were calling each other by name in the DoM battle, and I wasn't at all surprised to find Draco's best buddies' fathers are known DEs. They may not ALL know each other, but there is some general knowledge. I still feel that the Malfoy-Snape connection is because Snape and Lucius are/were DEs. Certainly, Lucius knew that his sister inlaw and her husband were DEs all along!! Just as the "good guys" have gravitated toward each other, the dark side must have stuck together through the lean years too.

[Kassandra Amparo]

However, I don't buy that the other DEs don't know each other. They were calling each other by name in the DoM battle, and I wasn't at all surprised to find Draco's best buddies' fathers are known DEs. They may not ALL know each other, but there is some general knowledge. I still feel that the Malfoy-Snape connection is because Snape and Lucius are/were DEs. Certainly, Lucius knew that his sister inlaw and her husband were DEs all along!! Just as the "good guys" have gravitated toward each other, the dark side must have stuck together through the lean years too.

Well,i said that they didn't know each other unless they were former friends or relatives.Those DEs in the DoM battle certainly had to know each other because they were on the same mission,but generally, they don't know much about each other.They don't know who is still working for Voldemort and who is not. Lucius and the Lestranges might not know that Snape has switched side,so it's possible that Snape is tracking information from Lucius for the order, or maybe,Snape is pretending to be a spy on the Order for Lucius and filling him with false information.

[nightingale]

I think that some know each other, but there's always those who feel the need to be in the shadows, even among their comrades. I have a feeling we haven't been introduced to all the DEs, yet, since Voldemort is supposedly known for his secret and effective ways. I mean they wear their masks even when they're alone with a boy whose doomed to die (but doesn't, yet again), so I'm getting the feel that not everything's out in the open. Plus, the whole Snape thing. If he is indeed spying for the Order, then Lucius must not know, or believe him to be a spy on the Order for them, which very well may be true. But all that confusion just shows that even they know each other, and some don't even go that far, they certainly don't know everything about each other, at least, I don't think they do, as Kassandra Amparo brought up.

I still think it's possible Snape was at the graveyard, it's just more probable that he went to LV afterward, as the task the DD assigned him, or at least, I believe the task was something of the sort.

[v@sh]

I'm not sure what Snape is doing, but I'm inclined to believe he wasn't in the graveyard. I believe he might be at least posing as a double agent, which would explain everything; Lucius and the other DEs wouldn't be suspicious, and he would have a good reason not to rush to Voldemort's side every time. However, I don't think that Dumbledore's interest in Harry's story proves anything other than good data collection. Everyone remembers different details, and everyone remembers details differently. So, no matter what DD knew, I'm sure he wanted to hear Harry's version.


I suppose he could be posing as a double agent. To be honest, I wouldn't have a clue to what Severus is exactly up to. We'll eventually find out of course, but there are too many mysteries to piece exactly what Snape is doing, though I think most have a general idea.

I agree about the whole second half of that though, the data collection and all. The more different viewpoints, the better.

It seems that the DE's know one another quite well as they all call each other by their first name mainly. What I do not understand is the link between Snape and Malfoy and whether Malfoy knows he is working for the Order and such. I assume that he would be by now but I remember that in the scene when Umbridge is going to put the illegal curse on Harry, she mentions to Snape that Malfoy holds him high regard. Things just seem to contradict everywhere. But IF Malfoy does know Snape is on the other side why wouldn't he condemn him? Unless he himself is spying on Snape to gather information for Voldemort.

Like Hpmons has listed, they are some of the reasons I don't believe Snape was at the graveyard. Snape I believe has changed sides, he can be an arse to everyone, but I think there is enough evidence that he has changed sides.

EDIT:


I still think it's possible Snape was at the graveyard, it's just more probable that he went to LV afterward, as the task the DD assigned him, or at least, I believe the task was something of the sort.


This interesting, it can be possible, but I don't think it is. Snape to me would be one to be in Voldemort's inner circle and even if he wasn't I think Voldemort would of recognised who was at the ceremony and who was not. I find it hard that Voldemort would not be able to gain the information he needs to why one was late considering how powerful he is. We have already seen his power to manipulate the mind (Bertha Jenkins's memory and Harry's dreams) so I doubt Snape would be able to penetrate and obsure Voldemort's powers even if Lupin says that Snape is exceptionally well at it.

[Desdemona]

Snape could have been in the graveyard...

The one 'too cowardly to return' is Karkaroff.
The one 'left forever' is Bagman.

i totally agree.

bagman at his trial was way too charming and playing the wide eyed innocent. he knew what he was doing, and he got away because he was some big shot quidditch player, but like what we saw in GOF with the goblins and their money, he's a leeetle bit of a coward. he's gone. after the trial for being a death eater he was gone from that point.

snapey was there, voldemort's not stupid enough to unmask snape infront of harry to "gloat" before he killed harry, voldemort probably thinks snape's a wonderful source of information about dumbledore due to him being in the same school and all.

[Hpmons]

I dont think Ludo Bagman could ever be a DE. Like F&G said, hes too stupid! Hes a coward as well, and I think he was innocent of the crime (perhaps not entirely, but close enough).
I do admit, Im not so certain about who is the Coward, and who is the Left Forever people. I know Karkaroff's the coward, but Im not sure about the other one; but its likely its Snape. However skilled at Occulemency Snape is, I find it hard to believe he can lie to Voldemort, it is more likely he is in contact with other DEs, and not Voldemort directly.

[iamshahin]

here is a thought ...... snape was in the grounds at the time of the third task so he could go and apparated. Also he gas a fire place so he could have taken floo power to diagon alley and then appartaed from there. I don't believe he was at the graveyard but im sure he still is in touch with voldy.

[Cycloneprime]

Was Snape at the graveyard? I don't think, but it is possible. See reasons above.

However, maybe he didn't need to be there... maybe he wasn't even called to be there.

I believe that Voldy called his "inner circle" to join him, not every DE...

maybe Snape never was in his Inner Circle to start with. If that is the case, than Snape wouldn't need any excuse to why he wasn't there. And it leaves the door open to who has left forever. ps: I believe that is Bagman too... but, at the limit, it could even be another caracter we don't even know yet, or don't suspect at all... Anyone...

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I believe that Voldy called his "inner circle" to join him, not every DE...

I have a feeling that the DEs are his inner circle, and he has other followers that aren't exactly DEs but do the same thing. I think that by pressing the Mark, he automatically called all of the DEs, so there are some that must be followers but don't have the mark.

[jordmundt6]

All the marked DEs (probably the innermost circle) were called. And we know that Snape is marked and that he felt the burn. So he was "called." His necessities as a spy would force him to appear to protect himself and the Order. Here's a question, why is Arabella Figg in the Order? What does she bring to the table?

[nightingale]

I think Arabella is in the Order because she's willing to help, she wants to do something about defeating LV. Even though she may not be able to do much, it's her willingness to help that, I think, counts to Dumbledore. She has, indeed, helped out by watching Harry while he was growing up and during the summer.

[Cycloneprime]

Did it say somewhere that ALL the DEs were called?

I've always figured that Voldy's organisation must have something like 4 layers, from top to bottom:

1)Voldomort himself
2)Inner circle, with only a few members, like a dozen or something
3)Outer circle, the rest of the DE. They are not part of the "leadership", but are part of the "army". They also have a Mark. Voldy can summon only his inner or both his circles if he want.
4)Followers. Does who support him, tho don't actively act for him. Exemple: Sirius parents.

If that is so, than it is possible that Tom didn't call Snape

[nightingale]

I thought the DE's were all Voldemort's inner circle, and all the dark creatures and people that were hood-winked formed his outer following.

[Cycloneprime]

I think it is safe to assume not all DE are in his inner circle.
Otherwise, why would (Arthur I think?) need to mention that Lucius was part of Voldy's inner circle. He just would have need to say that Lucius was a DE.

I think that pretty much stipulates an inner and outer circle of DE.

[Angora]

There are much fewer DEs this time than there were before, especially in GoF when some of them were still in jail.

So it's possible that there used to be a hierarchy before, but now there are so few DEs that there's just the one circle.

[story]

Cludo wicked

[Muggical Me]

Well, Snape could have used an illegal Portkey to get back from Voldie's little meeting so quickly. We know it's possible to use a portkey in place of apparation to get into Hogwarts, from OotP.
Even though that would make it possible for Snape to have been at the meeting, I don't think he was. Either he or Dumbledore would have said something to Fudge if he had, instead Snape just showed Fudge the Dark Mark on his arm.
I do think the Voldemort meant Snape when he mentioned the Death Eater who had left him forever, but I don't think he told the other DEs that for whatever bizarre reason. The other DEs could think that Snape is the one that Voldemort mentioned as the most loyal and the one at Hogwarts who sent Harry to the graveyard. I can't imagine why Voldie wouldn't tell the other DEs that Snape was one of the enemy, since his loyal DEs could potentially leak something to Snape, but I think it all the same.

[iamshahin]

There is always the posibility that snape could be acting spy on the dark side too. Like kingsly ( is that how u spell it) in the Sirius Hunt was leading them away from the truth.....snape could be doing the same with the Order's plans...Leading Voldemort away from the truth.

[luna16]

If Snape is there, he's there to spy Voldemort... Dumbledore trusts Snape enough to prove that Snape is sided to Dumbledore..

[Spirit]

I think it's very possible that Snape was in the graveyard. Why wouldn't he be? If Snape felt the Dark Mark burn, and Harry and Cedric were both missing, why wouldn't Dumbledore want him to go? But I don't know, I can see it going either way. :shrug:

[Severely Snapped]

Even though that would make it possible for Snape to have been at the meeting, I don't think he was. Either he or Dumbledore would have said something to Fudge if he had, instead Snape just showed Fudge the Dark Mark on his arm.

Excellent point. How do we get around that? As Muggical Me said (and someone else, too, brought this up earlier--sorry, I don't remember who), why would Snape show Fudge the Dark Mark to convince him that Voldemort had returned? If he had been sent to the graveyard by DD, all he had to say was, "Look, stupid, I was there, too. The Potter brat's right, for once. The Dark Lord has returned."

[miri]

:lol: Perhaps without calling the MoM stupid? :p

I also fail to see why he would have reacted as though he was surprised to hear Lucius named, if he'd been there.

And something tells me that if Harry had spotted Snape, he would have mentioned it...

[Angora]

The more time goes on, the more convinced I am he was there... and initially, I was sure he wasn't. Theories are funny that way.

I think if he was there, that might be something they would keep from Fudge. Possibly, Fudge wouldn't believe them anyway (the dark mark really should have been proof enough), possibly he would be all "well, you're a death eater again, off to jail you go!", possibly he would blab to everyone else. Fudge wasn't exactly on their side at that point.

Also, Harry was in the room, and they might not have wanted him to know either.

Now, the sudden movement Snape made at Lucius' name... assuming for the moment that it wasn't surprise, it could be that there's some reason he didn't want Fudge (or Dumbledore?) to know that Lucius was there. Or it could just be the fact that Harry was naming names and he was afraid (irrationally?) that Harry would name him next.

[sindatur]

But since "You can't apparate within Hogwarts grounds" would Snape have had enough time to get to an apparatable place, apparate to the cemetary, get back to an apparatable place outside Hogwarts, and then back into position within Hogwarts? Does Canon allow Snape enough time to do this, I don't have the book with me, but, it seems Snape would have to be able to apparate to and from Hogwarts grounds, in order for him to have been able to attend the Cemetary meeting, and be back in position at Hogwarts in time for Dumbledore to call upon him [Snape].

[jordmundt6]

Certainly. The maze and Quidditch Pitch aren't far from the Forbidden Forest. Severus would simply have to go to the forest's edge to Apparate and in the total confusion precipitated by the disappearance of Harry and Cedric and the reemergence of Harry with Cedric's body he could have slipped in and out of the crowd with ease. Remember, there was a lapse of several minutes from the time Harry and Cedric were transported and the time that the DEs were called. As for the return trip--pandemonium reigned. Severus isn't so distinctive that he couldn't slip into and out of a croweded pitch-area during a time of total chaos.

[harp230]

Snape's whereabouts were not accounted for until he was walking to Moody's/Crouch Jr office with McGonogal and Dumbledore. it is never said where Snape was when Harry and Cedric reappeared. It was never said that he was near that maze at any time after they came back. Dumbledore may have met snape somewere else along the way.

How for off Hogwarts grounds do you have to be to apperate? could it be that he did just beyond the front gates? What about the forbideden forrest? It is not completely on the Mauruders map(right?) so that could be considered a place to apperate? Or ( just a blind guess) Maybe Dumbledore has some secret place to apperate from in case of an emergency?
The illegal portkey for Snape to take would work....

[Nys]

Does it say in the books specifically that you can't apparate in Hogwarts grounds or just the castle? Cause if its the grounds then you would think that after Dumbledore leaves the office after the whole Dumbledore's army comes about that they would have been able to catch up with him. I mean it'd take a bit to get all the way out of the castle and then out of the grounds in the minute or so that he had until they all came too.

I think its highly likely that Snape was at the meeting of DeathEaters. At the end of the 4th book they still weren't sure whether they could actually trust Fudge so Snape saying that he was there wouldn't prove usefull at all! All it would have done was get him put in jail. You could tell even as Snape showed the mark Fudge wasn't going to believe them so why risk Azkaban?!

[iamnotanerd]

Sorry, but I can't read all the pages on this topic, so sorry if this has been mentioned.

So WHY is it that Snape, PROBABLY no longer a death eater, still friends with the Malfoys. They seem to RESPECT him, even. So then why doesn't Dumbledore see any connections or anything?

[iamnotanerd]

and i also dont understand how snape would be able to get to the graveyard and back in time without no one noticing. he cant apparate

[emerald eyes]

Hmmm... This is one of those things that I just keep climbing back and forth over the fence about. Sometimes I think yes, he had to have been there. And other times, I think, No way!!! I think that he could have gone no problem - I mean come on who really pays attention to Snape. And after all Crouch Jr. was busy with the maze and such. And I think sometimes that Jk let us know about his mind abilities as a hint to the fact that Voldemort and other DE's still think that he is on their side. But then thinking about Voldemort's speech as to who was gone and this and that well... Then I climb over to the other side! :sad:

The only thing I'm sure of is that we WILL find out someday :clap: ...yeah...sorry.

[LowKi]

Do the Death Eaters where masks ? Or KKK style Hoods ? Either way isn't it different to what Snape would be wearing anyway ? Meaning not only would he have had to find a way to get out of Hogwarts grounds/travel by Floo powder or create a Portkey,he wouldv'e had to have gone and got changed aswell.

[auror potter]

there's no way snape was in the grave yard. remember you can't apparate or disapparate in hogwarts grounds.

[LowKi]

there's no way snape was in the grave yard. remember you can't apparate or disapparate in hogwarts grounds.

But as we've found out,theres many different ways of travel other than apparation.

[Lanna]

Ok I'm trying to figure out all this in my head...

Before big V came into power the FIRST time Snape (being a DE so having the mark) turned his back on him and became a spy (hense why he didn't get in trouble as it was before all the s*** hit the fan so to speak). Then the Voldemort and Harry Potter thing happened and big V lost power. At this point Snape was still a spy and so no other DEs would know he was a traitor, hense why he was still buddys with Malfoy. Dumbledore thought Voldemort was going to come back and so Snape carried on with the facade.

However, the whole PS thing happened where Voldemort could have found out where Snapes true loyalties lay but as he was defeated again no one else found out (other DEs). Then the following years Voldemort was with Wormtail growing powerful again (I guess Wormtail wouldn't have known about Snape as the trio thought Snape was bad news and wouldnt have mentioned it in front of him) and Voldemort didn't think it was too important to mention to Wormtail as what could he do? He couldn't really leave big V to go spread the news about Snape.

So when Voldemort rose the 2nd time he knew about Snape and said he was the one who would never return (dunno how he found out about Crouch and the other bloke, other DEs maybe?). At this point I guess the other DEs figured out who he was talking about too. So now, Snape can no longer be a spy for Dumbledore but will just help him with the Order in other ways, and try not to be killed by big V.

Phew! Anyways, I'm my opinion I don't think Snape was there and that he's no longer working as a spy BUT it is posible for big V not to have found out and Snape to have gone. Hang on...when Harry told the names of the DEs and they got sent to Azkaban, did ALL of them get sent down? Because if they all did EXCEPT Snape, when they escape they'll know for sure won't they? Oh and I don't think is was an anonimous thing as Voldemort named Malfoy and others infront of everyone else.


I'd like to point out I'm very bad at putting over what I mean in writing and I think I even confused myself in parts so sorry :)

[crazygoats123]

i don't think that snape was at the graveyard. i think it could be possible just very unlikely. in snape's position LV might be more willing to accept that he is still a DE. since it would give a spy to him that DD trusted, or was close enough to get information to him. i also think that snape is the one that was cowerdly, since jk wont anwser that question, and snape being the one that left forever would be too predictable

[Katelyn]

No, i dont think snape was there in the graveyard either. he could easily have told LV that he wasnt there because he was trying to stop DD and other people spoiling LV's plans.
Another thing that makes me thing that snape wasnt in the graveyeard is what sirius says in OotP. he tells Harry that Harry had ruined LV's plans because he had gone and told DD ( the last person on earth LV wanted to know) that LV had returned. If snape had been in the graveyard, it would not have been so vital that Harry told DD everything, because Snape could have.

then again i could be completely wrong.

[LouisaB]

Hmm. Interesting idea that he could have been there after all.

Here are my random thoughts on some of the comments made on this thread. Adding to this post in a separate window as I go through all the pages so sorry in advance for repeating anyone else. Probably a bit muddled but here goes.

I think it would be likely that Dumbledore would warn Snape to be ready to go back if he was called. If he did not then they would lose their best spy.

The time it takes to get to Voldemort...well everyone who has read Hogwarts: A History (I assume others besides Hermione have) would know that you can't apparate from the school. This would include Voldemort. He must know that Snape is at the school, surely all his spies could not have failed to report it to him? He would know that he would be late answering his call. They all arrive and gather in force in the graveyard but does it ever say exactly how long that all took. It could have been enough time for Snape to be one of the latter ones arriving after all.

Getting back might have been a bit more difficult though.

Flue powder might work but where would the address be? Don't recall there being fireplaces in the graveyard and how would they know the address to go to? Unless Snape went to one address and then on to the graveyard by apparating.

PortKeys - possible, but I don't think we know enough about how they are made and work to set one up. Again how do they know to set one up to go to the graveyard? I got the impression they are kind of pre-programmed to go to one particular place. I don't see how they could have set it up.

There is always the possibility that someone has been taking a Snape polyjuice potion so he can be in two places at the same time of course but I don't think it is very likely.

I think time-turners was already covered by someone else and the regulations etc would prevent those being used.

I am still convinced that although Snape knew that Quirrell was after the stone that he did not know who he was after it was for. Even if Voldemort was aware of Snape stopping Quirrell it is unlikely that he would take it personally as I think he would realise that Snape would not know that it is him he is stopping. I don't recall Quirrell ever introducing Snape to his little guest on the back of his head after all.

And we have to remember that the stone extends life for regular wizards as well as bringing back ones in Voldemort's position. Quirrell could have wanted the stone for himself. This in all likelihood was what Snape assumed.

The trials of the death eaters....well they are not the most honest of people are they? If it was just the trial i had to talk his way out of I don't think it would be difficult for Snape to convince Voldemort that he had Dumbledore taken in with his reformed act and that he is really loyal after all. Just all the other little things like saving Harry that causes the problems.

I don't think that Voldemort would have shown Harry Snape as I think that their personal problems of not getting along would be beneath his attention, if he is aware of them at all. I don't think that Snape ranked particularly high in the list of death eaters and his being passed over would seem to me to be quite possible.

With regard to Slytherins not wanting to risk their own necks, this and Snape spying at great personal risk, is one of those little things that makes me wonder if Snape was in Slytherin house. The only reference made is slightly vague and ambiguous, that he was part of a gang of Slytherins. Never said that he actually was one of the Slytherins.

With regard to JKR's comments about Snape and keeping an eye on him etc. This may not be about what he is up to now but perhaps referring to something he has done in his past that was really bad and that will shock everyone who subscribes to the theory that he was never really a true Death Eater at all. I believe that he has done something pretty bad and sooner or later we are going to find out what.

I always assumed that Snape was the one believed to have left forever. Interesting theory that he is the cowardly one Ashes. Though if he is a coward what does that make Karkaroff?

I think that the comments about Snape just standing by whilst Harry was attacked are pretty accurate. I don't think he would have done that. My reasoning is that if Snape is spying for Dumbledore and the Order we have to remember that they have to see the big picture. Lots of people died before when Voldemort was alive and in his prime. If Harry should have failed and been killed Snape's spying would be even more important in the grand scheme of things. If he had suddenly switched sides to try to save Harry he would have been seen to be a spy and the Order would be without their inside man. I think that Snape would have had to have kept quiet so as not to ruin everything. For any spy I would imagine that the hardest thing to do would be to stand by and watch things you don't want to be happening without being able to do a thing about it at the time.

Whichever he was, the coward or the one who has left forever, he was ordered back later by Dumbledore - but did he actually go if he had already been there? I believe that he was not in the graveyard but that he had the couldn't apparate excuse which Voldemort would know was true. Then Snape could easily say that he was late because of the chaos at Hogwarts and Dumbledore keeping him close by. Whether he is believed or not is anyone's guess. As for the Crucio curse being done on him, well who is to say he was not punished for being late by some other method. There are other curses that would not kill him or send him mad that could be rather unpleasant. I agree that the word believes is very telling in that sentence.

As for why Voldemort allowed him back into the fold...well whilst I think that there are a lot of things that Snape could not explain that have already been posted I think it could be a case of keeping your friends close but your enemies closer.

Kassandra Amparo has commented on why Dumbledore would want Harry to tell them everything that happened if Snape has already been there. My take on that is twofold, firstly he does not want everyone to know that Snape was there and risk exposing him. Also different people see different things, Harry could have spotted something that Snape missed and vice versa. Just look at all the different perspectives on these boards posted by people who have read the same books but seen things just that bit differents. This thread being one of many examples.

All that being said I don't think that he was actually in the graveyard at the time.

Sorry that got really long.

[dog star]

To solve the problem of getting off the Hogwarts grounds...what if Snape has a portkey to take him off the grounds, then he apparates from there? That would be very quick.

[Wab]

Just re-read GoF.

During the scene in the cemetery LV says that there are six (apart from those in Azkaban) who aren't there.

Three died in his service, one was in Hogwart's serving his master (Crouch), one fled (Karkaroff) and one was probably lost to him (Snape).

We know Snape was called because he shows the mark to Fudge and explains how it called him when Harry and Dumbledore were trying to convince Fudge that LV was back.

[dog star]

But what we don't know is if he wasn't one of the three at all -- maybe he was one of the ones who are present. I always felt he was the one who had left Voldemort forever, but he may not be. Only JKR knows for sure.

[Wab]

But what we don't know is if he wasn't one of the three at all -- maybe he was one of the ones who are present. I always felt he was the one who had left Voldemort forever, but he may not be. Only JKR knows for sure.

The book implies that he was present at Hogwarts during Harry's absence.

[Nephel]

Snape was present for Harry's return, so I think it ins't likely that Snape was present in the graveyard. I believe he apparated to the graveyard later on, when Dumbledore said 'You know what I must ask you to do'. Snape was late to arrive at Voldemort's side, but Voldemort knows Snape will be late, because he cannot apparate directly from the Hogwarts grounds.

[WhoAmI?]

How far away (and how long would it take to get there) is the line where Snape could apparate from in relation to the school grounds?

[wavy]

To solve the problem of getting off the Hogwarts grounds...what if Snape has a portkey to take him off the grounds, then he apparates from there? That would be very quick.

Snape definitely could have portkeyed back and forth. That is a possibility.

BUT, it seems to me like Snape wasn't present. When Karkaroff was speaking with him about the mark, Snape said he was going to stay at Hogwarts and not run. Then, after the graveyard scene, he had his discussion with DD in which DD said "You know what I must ask you to do." Snape paled, and DD looked very concerned as Snape left.

My take is that Snape did stay at Hogwarts until after his discussion with DD and THEN left and talked his way back into the DE circle. If Snape had already been with V, what task could DD have given him to make him look so concerned and Snape pale?

[Inkwolf]

Well, JKR pretty much answered the question about who is the 'one who has left me forever' in her World Book Day chat...

HarriFreak: Who is the 'one that never will return' deatheater? JK Rowling replies -> You have to work it out, but a lot of fansites have got it right.

Who could that be but Snape?

Of course, you could argue that Voldemort was fibbing, because he wanted to keep Snape totally secret as his spy at Hogwarts....but.....

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html

[Pegasus]

I think it's someone she hasn't revealed yet. I actually found the Mugglenet essay about Fudge quite convincing. Of course, we'll never know until a book tells us.

[zorch]

The main problem with Voldemort knowing that Snape is a traitor to him is that Snape would be DEAD. Whatever powers Snape might have in Occlumency, if Voldemort knew for a fact that Snape was spying on him, he would kill him at the earliest opportunity. Aside from that, Snape is way too buddy-buddy with Malfoy, who is one of the Dark Lord's most loyal supporters. The only way for Snape to be a succesful double agent is to be trusted by both sides. The question then becomes: To whom is Snape truly loyal? Does his skill in Occlumency allow him to lie to Dumbledore? Either way, Snape had to be in the graveyard to maintain his cover as a Death Eater, or to function as a spy for the Order. Besides, Snape hates Harry, all he really cares about (I believe) is stopping Voldemort, does he care if Harry dies? I don't think he does.

[Pegasus]

I agree with most of your post and adamantly disagree with the part about Harry. Snape could have just let Harry die so many times, but he has fought very hard to keep him alive.
I also don't think Snape had to be in the graveyard. Voldemort would have known Snape couldn't leave without Dumbledore noticing. I also believe Snape is 100% loyal to Dumbledore.

[Perseus_]

J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004


Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape?
JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it.


Even JKR doesnt seems too sure about old Snivellus loyalties...

[Ariesm64]

Hi All I'm New here but thought I'd give my thoughts on how Snape was able to leave and return within Hogwarts grounds. In ootf Dumbledore used Fawks to apprate. So would it be far fetched for Dumbledore to let Snape Use him as well?

:huh:

[Emmagirl15]

But where would fawkes be. I mean someone (a death eater) would see Fawkes and surely peter would recognize. I don't think that dumbledore would risk his precious Fawkes. I think that Snape was one mentioned by Voldy. That would make the storyline so much more interesting. Think of this... I Voldy tried to kill Snape, and Harry had to save him. Snape would be forced to give up his grudge on Harry. That would be kinda interesting.

[FluffyMundungus]

There must be a reason that Snape has never let Harry die- he's saved Harry numerous times now. I've always believed that Snape is on DD's side, and I've also believed that Snape has a motive for saving Harry, aside from DD's request. DD once mentioned that Snape was in debt to James because James once saved Snape's life. Of course, we know about this now, I think this is not the reason that Snape has saved Harry so many times. I believe that Snape knows something about Harry that we don't- and he knows this because DD trusts him.

But where would fawkes be. I mean someone (a death eater) would see Fawkes and surely peter would recognize. I don't think that dumbledore would risk his precious Fawkes. I think that Snape was one mentioned by Voldy. That would make the storyline so much more interesting. Think of this... I Voldy tried to kill Snape, and Harry had to save him. Snape would be forced to give up his grudge on Harry. That would be kinda interesting.
I'm sure Fawkes has his ways of being invisible- when he delivered the message and warning in OoTP all you saw was a flash of fire. Maybe there is some way to make that flash of fire invisible. And also, Fawkes is tougher than he appears. You have to take into account that Fawkes is special, he regenrates. In OotP, he swallowed what I assumed was a killing course for DD, and rather than die, all that happened was that Fawkes was reborn.

[Darkillness]

Hi All I'm New here but thought I'd give my thoughts on how Snape was able to leave and return within Hogwarts grounds. In ootf Dumbledore used Fawks to apprate. So would it be far fetched for Dumbledore to let Snape Use him as well?

:huh:
The only way that would work is if he used Fawkes to appear away from the Death Eaters and then apparate himself the rest of the way there because the DE would probably be suspicious with him if he brought Dumbledore's pet with him. Nice though. It's better than the portkey or the run to the end of the grounds then apparate theory. (welcome, by the way!)
I try to stay out of speculating on this because there are a lot of good convincing arguments about who the 3 are. I like the idea that Snape left after DD talk right now, but I'm sure it'll change after I read something new. :rotfl: The main question though, is who Snape is really loyal too and how is he spying on them.

[FluffyMundungus]

Hmmm, there are a lot of gaping holes in either theory. Assuming Snape left Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort have known. I mean all those court trials, etc., someone would've aalerted Voldemort. Of course, we could also say that Snape had told Voldemort that the only reason he had said he was on DD's side was so he could spy for Voldemort. So the argument could go either side. But I believe DD- that Snape truly has repented and is now on our side.

[Ariesm64]

Anyone ever thought the reason for Snapes loathing of James is the he was in love with Lily and the reason he protect Harry is because he sees Lily in Harry's eyes.

[Inkwolf]

Anyone ever thought the reason for Snapes loathing of James is the he was in love with Lily and the reason he protect Harry is because he sees Lily in Harry's eyes.

Only twenty billion people. :p Sorry, it's an old and much-discussed theory.

[harp230]

Anyone ever thought the reason for Snapes loathing of James is the he was in love with Lily and the reason he protect Harry is because he sees Lily in Harry's eyes.
I believe that even our beloved author hinted at that in an interview. Let me look it up...

[melusinafairy]

id like to think he was in the graveyard just cause it'd clear up a lot... but if he knew about the graveyard meeting prior enough in advance to go to it, wouldnt he be able to prevent harry and cedric from going to the graveyard via portkey? It seems like if he really did kno about the graveyard meeting, snape would've told dumbledore and theres no way dumbledore would risk a student's life in that manner.

[LilCubanita67]

Doesn't Voldy almost know everything about his death eaters and where they are and what they are thinking? If snape was hiding behind some tombstone he probably would have known...Voldy is just that good

[SyirenSlytherin]

id like to think he was in the graveyard just cause it'd clear up a lot... but if he knew about the graveyard meeting prior enough in advance to go to it, wouldnt he be able to prevent harry and cedric from going to the graveyard via portkey? It seems like if he really did kno about the graveyard meeting, snape would've told dumbledore and theres no way dumbledore would risk a student's life in that manner.

All the DE's knew was that LV was getting stronger. None knew when he would summen them but Snape and DD had a good idea that something was going to happen during the third task.

i keep jumping back and forth as to weather Snape was in the graveyard, he was suspiciously absent during all three events suggesting he may have been anticipating being called during one of them. plus there's the description JKR uses when Moody takes Harry back to the school.
across the lawn, past the lake and the Durmstrang ship... up the stone steps... crossed the Entrance Hall... up the marble stairs...along the corridor...

a lot of description for the walk back to Moodys office, but also a lot of time for Snape to get back to Hogwarts :evil:

[atherella]

Anyone ever thought the reason for Snapes loathing of James is the he was in love with Lily and the reason he protect Harry is because he sees Lily in Harry's eyes.

I know that a few people have mentioned that this idea has been considered, but here's a link to a thread that discusses this idea in more detail if you are interested in checking it out, and/or joining the discussion. :)
Snape loved Lily? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11899&highlight=snape+loved+lily)

And, since this thread is about whether or not Snape was in the graveyard, and many people are arguing it wasn't possible, I thought I'd post the link to the Red Hen guy's essay Double00Sevie (http://www.redhen-publications.com/Double00Sevie.html) , which goes into great detail of how it is possible he was there. It's a long essay, but discusses how Snape may be working as a double agent for both LV and DD. It not only touches upon the scene in the graveyard, but goes all the way back to PS/SS and explains away pretty much any argument that has been brought up. I'd highly recommend it as a read. It may turn out to be incorrect, but it is one explaination that seems to neatly tie things up. Despite the length, it's really quite good.

[luv2read]

I think that Snape's relationship with Lucious leads me to think that he is somehow still associated with Voldemort and the DE. BUT, whether or not he's a spy for DD, I couldn't say...but I hope he is. Perhaps Voldemort believes Snape is keeping an eye on DD? Maybe he was not at the graveyard because he is "positioned" at Hogwarts?

I wondered how good at occulmency Snape could be if he has to put his thoughts into the pensive before working with Harry. If he was so good at it, why couldn't he hide those thoughts from Harry? But then again, if he is a double agent, he would have to have some skill in it. I also agree that if Voldemort knows Snape to have broken away from him, he would have had him killed.

[snapes hunnybun]

many people seem to think that Severus is the DE who left Voldy forever. There is no real proof at the moment to say whether he is or isn't still in The Dark Lords inner circle. JKR wouldn't tell us because then we would all know and there would be no more mystery about who's side he is really on. This way she keeps us guessing.

Personally I would like to think he was there, as himself, and not under the influence of polyjuice potion, and that he was there to spy for The Order. He may have left the DE originally but I think that he had to go and ingratiate himself back into the Dark Lord's service. He may have done that long before we realize, and not when Dumbledore asks him if he knows what he must do, and if he is prepared. That could be something else entirely.

Sorry if I've rambled...too long in front of the computer with far too many cups of tea!

[alpha_hazard]

Finally, I found this thread...I've been searching for fifteen minutes...

Now, I'm sure this has been said, But I'll reiterate it for whomever said it first.

I don't think so. My reasoning here is that when Harry returns from the graveyard, Moody/crouch takes him immediately to his office, where three figures appear in the Foe-Glass, each one turns into the form of Dumbledore, McGonagal, and Snape. Now we all know that you cannot disapparate or apparate on hogwarts grounds. I'm not sure how far this rule extends, but certainly far enough to make it difficult to get from apparating distance in that short of time.

Also, it stands to reason that if Snape is in the foe glass, then Crouch knows why, and if he knows, then I would think that voldemort knows as well...

Finally, if Snape was in the grave yard (And I'm sure this question has already been posed, and perhaps answered,) who is the person who betrayed Voldemort and will be killed for it?

[MagicMuggle]

There is an interesting editorial that made me re-think my whole Snape and the graveyard theory...Snape vs. Time (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt16.shtml) I thought it may interest some people if they haven't seen it already! :)

I wondered how good at occulmency Snape could be if he has to put his thoughts into the pensive before working with Harry. If he was so good at it, why couldn't he hide those thoughts from Harry?Have you ever considered the fact that maybe Snape was going easy on Harry, and he gradually let his guard down because he underestimated him? I'm sure that it would have been a bit of a nasty shock for him eh? :lol: But then again, I'm assuming that when defending against Legilimency, an experienced wizard would use Occlumency. But in Harry's case, he is inexperienced and would therefore use something like a reverse spell (protego...I don't think that's the right spelling) and Snape wasn't prepared for it.

Also, it stands to reason that if Snape is in the foe glass, then Crouch knows why, and if he knows, then I would think that voldemort knows as well...Can we be sure that Crouch Jr. even check's his dark detectors? We all know that he had to learn and re-create the habits of the real Mad-Eye Moody, but what if the Foe-Glass was merely a prop in his little game? Taking on someone else's life for that length of time has to be very difficult, especially under Dumbledore's nose. One could get caught up, and not remember the Foe-Glass. Besides, when Crouch had taken Harry to his office, he didn't see the people in the Foe-Glass, there were only shadows. Aside from that, Snape didn't really do anything to upset Crouch's plans, nor did he stop him from taking Harry. Crouch could have easily thought of Snape as a double agent working for Voldemort. When he showed up in the office with McGonagall and Dumbledore, it could be thought of as keeping up appearances. :huh: Hope this makes sense to everyone...it sounded ok as I was thinking of it! :)

[tarachristwen]

no,obviously..cos voldermort said that one of his servants who have left him forever will be punished to death... :huh:

[subtle science]

I don't think Snape was in the graveyard. Initially, I did think that Voldemort meant Snape when he spoke of the "one who has left me forever"; however, once I started reading OotP, I changed my mind: to me, Snape spent far too long working as a spy (June-August without Harry's knowledge, and continuing after Harry arrived at Grimmauld Place) to be the one. Voldemort doesn't strike me as that dense, that gullible, or that patient/forgiving: I think he would've killed Snape rather promptly. My vote for the former DE under the death sentence is Ludo Bagman...but that's another thread.

My opinion is also based upon Dumbledore's and Snape's interaction at the end of Gof when Snape is sent off on his mysterious mission--I just never got the impression from that interaction that Snape had already been in contact with Voldemort...but that's nothing more than my impression, based on Snape's reaction and Dumbledore's concern. I thought Snape reacted as he did and Dumbledore was worried because Snape was initiating contact with Voldemort; he'd have to do some fast talking to explain why he didn't answer the summons: if Voldemort didn't believe him, he'd be dead; even if Voldemort did believe him, it nevertheless was likely that he'd get a dose of Crucio for being late to the party. My theory is that Snape succeeded in convincing Voldemort and therefore resumed his active role as spy for the Order.

[just_me]

I think Snape was in the circle of death eaters. Voldemort would not have wanted to draw attention to Snape as he thinks he is his spy. I think the reason Snape was so pale when Dumbledore asked him to back to spying...

By helping Dumbledore he turned his back on beliefs he has had his entire life. Dumbledore is asking him to go back and put on a happy face and act (in a way convinsing to Voldemort) like he still believes. At this point he will have to be face to face with Voldemort not behind a hood with a circle of people. I think if I were faced with that I'd be pale too.

[1hp2]

Snape being skilled in occlumency is one of the few who can successfully lie to the Dark Lord. I think that is significant in being able to spy of LV as a DE. He can come up with nay story to tell Voldemort, and since Voldemort thinks he can tell if anyone is lying, Snape could use his occlumency skills to tell him an excuse as to why he didn't show up (if he didn't). I think Snape reported to Voldemort after the graveyard scene, when Dumbledore asked him if he knew what he must do and if he was ready. Then Snape left. I think he left to contact Voldemort. He could have been targeted to be killed, but he was able to lie his way out of it.

Are we taking Crouch Jr.'s word that he is the most faithful servant? Does Voldemort ever specifically name who the most faithful is? Long shot maybe, but Snape is still a possbility for that.

[november]

There are several things about Snape that makes me believe he's fledgling about which side he's on. I'm rather sure he was in the circle of death eaters that night with Voldemort. Personally, I think Snape could easily be pulled back over to the dark side.

That's why he gets angry when Harry insists on saying "Voldemort" why than "he-who-must-not-be-named," and also why Dumbledore refuses to let him teach Defense against the Dark Arts. I think there is something major behind why Dumbledore refuses to put Snape in that position, and that it's something Dumbledore sees in Snape that hasn't been fully revealed.

But that's just my humble speculation.

[just_me]

I don't think you have to trust Snape to understand the position he is in. He has found Slytherin utopia. No matter what happens his backside is covered.

Voldemort thinks he is loyal to him. I don't think Voldemort tells him everything though. I really don't think he knew about the plans with Harry. Perhaps that was one of the things the angered him, or worried, when he saw Harry's thoughts in Ootp.

Dumbledore thinks he is loyal to him. He trusts him and depends on him for information.

No matter how this turns out Snape come out smelling like a rose.

I believe Snape was in the graveyard because Dumbledore would have wanted him there. To spy and to protect Harry. Of course I think he did a pretty poor job of protecting Harry if the curse had hit Harry he would have been dead, unless Snape and Dumbledore know something that we don't.

[rshipers]

We found out when Dumbledore turned the centaurs head into a portkey that unregistered portkeys can be made. Maybe Dumbledore made one for Snape to use as soon as he got the signal that he needed to go to Voldemort. It would also explain how he was able to get back to Hogwarts so soon. He could have been helping Harry reach the cup without anyone seeing him do it.

[MagicMuggle]

I am at a crossroads with this theory...I'm not really sure what to believe regarding whether or not Snape was in the graveyard.

~The one too cowardly to return- Karakoff

~One who has left me forever, he will die of course- Snape?

~My faithful servent, he is at Hogwarts- Crouch Jr.

I know this has been said billions of times before, but that's the way it seems to fit the best in my opinion. :)

But on the other hand, I've read the editorial, Snape vs. Time (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt16.shtml) and it has given me reason to believe that he was in the graveyard at the current time... Which brings me to my next question, If Snape were there, what could he have done to help Harry? The only thing he could have done was stand by and take notes for Dumbledore without blowing his cover. When Harry was in the battle with Voldemort, or when the Priori Incantatam happened, why didn't Snape fire a spell and say it was an accident, or create a diversion of some sort to at least attempt to save a Harry? I know there would have been consequences afterwards, but I don't think Voldemort would have killed a 'faithful servent' who has access to Hogwarts and Harry under Dumbledore's nose. Besides, didn't Dumbledore say something to the effect of, 'It was because of you, and only you that we now know that Voldemort has returned.' at the end of the Goblet of Fire?

Anyways, I think I'm leaning towards the thought of Snape not being in the graveyard at the time, considering he didn't try anything to save Harry. Any thoughts on my questions? :huh:

[just_me]

Besides, didn't Dumbledore say something to the effect of, 'It was because of you, and only you that we now know that Voldemort has returned.' at the end of the Goblet of Fire?
I think he was blowing sunshine up.......after all Snapes marked burned as well so they would have known anyway.

[just_me]

Boy I was hateful that day. Must not have had my coffee. I have been toying around with a differrent theory about the graveyard.
The quotes are from GoF
Yet they left gaps in the circle, as though waiting for more people.


Gaps plural, but we knew that as he refers to two of the gaps, but there could be more.


He had reached the largest gap of all, and he stood surveying it with his blank, red eyes....

Well we know the rest of that by now. Largest gap of all sounds like you are comparing more than just two. If there were more than just the two then there could have been another space saved for Snape. Mabe deside his good friend Lucius, the book only says that he moved on, doesn't say what he passed.

What if Snape wasn't there but also was not one of the three.

[Saint Smeagol]

Who's to say though that the most faithful spy at Hogwarts isn't Snape? I don't think it is but hey...Jo loves a good twist.

[just_me]

Who's to say though that the most faithful spy at Hogwarts isn't Snape? I don't think it is but hey...Jo loves a good twist.
naa he's not one on the three

[Wimsey]

If Snape was at the Graveyard, then why did he not tell Fudge that he, himself, had seen Voldemort? Instead, Snape only stated that the Dark Mark had been coming into greater prominence and that he was supposed to disapparate and appear by Voldemort's side.

Such a statement might have gone a long way toward convincing Fudge by providing a second eye witness account to Voldemort's return. Snape would have revealed no more about himself than he did by showing the mark. One would have to construct a very convoluted hypothesis to explain why Snape could admit to being a DE but not admit to attending to Voldemort.

[mruggy]

I don't think he was at the graveyard; wouldn't Harry have noticed? Then on the other hand, Snape could have been one of those Voldemort passed by; something that seams very unlikely.

Don't forget Scabbers aka Wormtail. He could have heard several conversations in the dorm (or outside it) between Harry, Hermione and Ron, and those could have conserned Snape threatening Quirrel (as they thought). Wormtail probably passed all that on to Voldemort.

Besides, Voldemort probably called his death eaters together often, and that would probably have meant Snape being absent from work, unless these meetings took place in the night, something I don't think Voldemort would care about, since he doesn't seem concerned with his Death Eaters' public "non-Voldemort" appearence.

As a final point, lets say Snape was at the graveyard. Who, then was the person who Voldemort "believe has left me forever?" Any ideas?
i think Karkaroff is the one who has left him and snape is acting as a double agent for dumbledore

[laluna]

what about that?

The one too cowardly to return- Karakoff

One who has left me forever, he will die of course- Crouch Jr

My faithful servent, he is at Hogwarts- Severus Snape

Voldemort hast always a good sense what is going on (like Dumbledore), he probably knows that Crouch Jr is going to die... Maybe Dumbledore is fooled by Snape. :evil:

[ArtemisiaDax]

But how did Crouch Jr. leave him forever? Crouch was his most faithful servant, that much seems clear...in my mind, the only debate is whether "the one who has left me forever" is Snape or someone else (not Crouch Jr. or Karkaroff, but someone like Bagman.) Or perhaps Snape could even be the coward, but I somehow doubt that.

[Wickedgirl86]

Not really.
Being disloyal implies that Snape was intentionally keeping the stone from Voldemort. But, if there was no indication that Snape was doing anything but trying to keep the stone from Quirrel....different story.
Quirrel was never a Death Eater. Voldemort is 'dead.' There's no reason for Voldemort to suppose Snape assumes that Quirrel's theft attempt has any motive besides Quirrel's own greed.
It's confusing to explain....


Yes well I still think it Fudge who is the missing one.
Why?
Well, for a bunch of different reasons:

1) He's very ambitious and doesn't mind using dishonest tricks to remain in power (e.g. badmouthing Harry and Dumbledore, changing Harry's hearing at the last minute and creating new (pretty fascist) school rules.)
2) He's very good friends with Lucius Malfoy and places too much importance in the "purity of blood" (GoF).
3) This person described by Voldemort is one who was a Death Eater but who left Voldemort but probably didn't join the opposing side (the Order), as indicated by "believe." He probably wasn't one of Voldemort's most ardent supporters (i.e., he could have been unknown by most of the other Death Eaters) as Voldemort doesn't specify who he is. I get an image of an ambitious character who probably turned to Voldemort out of fear and/or to achieve power and then, when he had achieved that power, wanted to leave him. He probably left after Voldemort's fall, as there seems to be no clear rupture between them (for one thing, he's still alive), when he deemed it safe to be his own master again. He's now extremely happy with the situation, able to suppress the memory of his Death Eater days and scared to death that Voldemort will return as that would ruin his life and career. Sounds like somebody we know?
If we look at Fudge's background we find that he worked for the Ministry but that he only got the Minister of Magic job when Crouch, Sr.'s son was judged a Death Eater (maybe there was a reason to why Crouch, Jr. got caught?...). Fudge then became MoM and kept very close to Dumbledore in the beginning (looking for protection in case his old master came back?...) but then got more and more confident (as time passed without Voldemort coming back) and stopped listening to Dumbledore. Other than that, we don't know much about him. Nothing of his background, his time at Hogwarts, etc. (although I'd be willing to bet that he was a Slytherin). He's a bit mysterious.
4) This character (the missing DE) ought to be extremely afraid that Voldemort should ever come back. That would ruin his world. He does not want that and will try to prevent it in any way possible (makes sense, Voldemort would kill him). What is Fudge's reaction when Harry tells him about Voldemort's rebirth? Denial. Very strong denial even. Fudge simply refuses to believe the truth and continues on this path all through Book 5. He'd rather believe that Harry has lost his mind and that Dumbledore is conspiring against him, even though that makes no sense. Fudge is not stupid. If he'd look at things in a rational way, he'd see that the only sensible explanation is the one offered by Harry and Dumbledore. He doesn't. He refuses to. If he's been a Death Eater, he'll have the Mark. He'll have felt it burn the night of Voldemort's return, just like Snape and the others. This could be why he reacts so strongly when Snape shows him his Mark. I mean, he lets out a yelp of fear. As I understood it, nobody but the Death Eaters knows about the Mark on the arm of all of Voldemort's supporters (if it was general knowledge, then the "good guys" would have had it a lot easier at the trials, for example). If Fudge hasn't been a DE, he wouldn't know about it, so why then react so strongly when he saw it on Snape's arm? Sure, the Mark in itself is a scary thing, but I think that there is more to it than that. Especially as, a little while later, he seems to give in to reason and says, "He can't be back Dumbledore, he just can't" (GoF). This seems to be a wish rather than a rational statement. In his heart he knows the truth but he refuses to see it. He most certainly felt his Mark burn too, but explained it away somehow (like some women manage to convince themselves that they're not pregnant (God, I'm getting fat, must cut down on the chocolate) and panic when they "all of a sudden" get severe contractions. ("It must be something I ate! Help!")). It's like the Muggles who are so easy to hide magic from because they simply refuse to believe in it, even if a stone turns into a cow in front of them. That is how I see Cornelius Fudge in Books 4 and 5. He sees what he wants to see.

[MissingOctober]

If Snape were there, what could he have done to help Harry? The only thing he could have done was stand by and take notes for Dumbledore without blowing his cover.
Well, for one thing in OOTP we know that Severus has the talent to keep cool in confusing, desperate situations. I mean, he wasn't sure of what Harry was telling him *spoiler* in front of Umbridge in her office, but he managed not to look awkward during the whole ordeal. I mean, the guy can certainly keep his manner, which could say something about how he got through the whole graveyard scene if, in fact, he was there.
When Harry was in the battle with Voldemort, or when the Priori Incantatam happened, why didn't Snape fire a spell and say it was an accident, or create a diversion of some sort to at least attempt to save a Harry? I know there would have been consequences afterwards, but I don't think Voldemort would have killed a 'faithful servent' who has access to Hogwarts and Harry under Dumbledore's nose.
Well, I assume that Voldemort has probably had his suspicions about Snape from the beginning. You can't exactly take on a follower and expect them to keep all of your secrets without first looking in to them first. And, if Snape seemed all too mysterious, then I am sure that any interruption caused by Snape at the graveyard would have been the last straw! Simply, Voldemort would have retaliated on Snape for ruining everything, and I am sure that Severus would not wish to be a dead man in those curcumstances.
Besides, didn't Dumbledore say something to the effect of, 'It was because of you, and only you that we now know that Voldemort has returned.' at the end of the Goblet of Fire?


Yes, yes, Snape is a great guy! :eyebrows: But, I just don't think that he could have possibly been there. I mean, sure he could have found some way, but I don't think that he would be technically fighting his way back just to see his ole' "pal." But, if he was really there, then maybe we should be questioning Snape's true side b/c he was able to watch a boy suffer through a great ordeal and behave without a flinch; or maybe we should just take awe at his powerful talent to keep cool in a much trying situation.

[LedZeppelin]

Don't you guys think that if Snape was really in leage with Lord Voldermort, or if he was pretending to be with him, voldemort would KNOW just like everyone else does that he is a Professor at hogwarts, is close to harry potter, and could therefore get close and kill harry. I mean if I was Voldemort that would be what i would say to Snape if he was in my presance; "When your alone with the boy, kill him.". Snape could just then give Harry a Detention on some trumped up violation (which would not be very suspicious because everyone knows Snape dislikes Harry), and then kill him when he showed up for the detention, then run away. So if we take that into effect i dont think Snape is a death eater anymore, and is infact working for dumbeldore on something. I mean Dumbeldore can't watch every student and teacher 24/7 from his office can he? or know beforehand when something bad is going to happen? Or otherwise the Chamber of Secrets wouldent have been opend and people wouldent have been petrified.

[Wimsey]

[SIZE=2]Yes well I still think it Fudge who is the missing one.
Why?
Well, for a bunch of different reasons:

Every reason you list works just as well for Umbridge. As Black noted, not all bad people are DEs.

Fudge is a politician and a power-seeker. He might be a bit like Crouch, Sr. However, Fudge certainly is not in league with Voldemort, even if some of Fudge's sympathies are the stuff upon which Voldemort thrives.

[laluna]

Well, that is definetly a good point, maybe he is killed by LV or his Death Eaters and has to be replaced. Therefor a new minister is appointed. Fudge always seemed to be like the person who is easy to influence, especially by LV and the entire dark side. :huh:

[QUOTE=Wickedgirl86][SIZE=2]Yes well I still think it Fudge who is the missing one.

[just_me]

Don't you guys think that if Snape was really in leage with Lord Voldermort, or if he was pretending to be with him, voldemort would KNOW just like everyone else does that he is a Professor at hogwarts, is close to harry potter, and could therefore get close and kill harry. I mean if I was Voldemort that would be what i would say to Snape if he was in my presance; "When your alone with the boy, kill him.". Snape could just then give Harry a Detention on some trumped up violation (which would not be very suspicious because everyone knows Snape dislikes Harry), and then kill him when he showed up for the detention, then run away. So if we take that into effect i dont think Snape is a death eater anymore, and is infact working for dumbeldore on something. I mean Dumbeldore can't watch every student and teacher 24/7 from his office can he? or know beforehand when something bad is going to happen? Or otherwise the Chamber of Secrets wouldent have been opend and people wouldent have been petrified.
Voldemort does not know if Harry can be killed by ususal means. He does think Dumbledore knows how to kill him and how Harry can be killed. It would be better for Voldemort to leave Snape where he is and how Dumbledore lets something slip.