Which side is Snape really on?

[Dumbledore's style]

This may have been discussed before, but I couldn't find it...

Which side is Snape really on?

At the end of book 4, Voldie says "one of our number I fear has left us forever - he will be killed" (or something to that effect)...this doesn't sound like Voldie knew Snape was a spy - otherwise he would surely have said something about him 'betraying' him. We know that Snape is an excellent Occlumence, and can peform legilimancy too...but could he really outwit Voldie?

In book 5, Sirius (I think) says that Snape is Lucius Malfoys little dog - working for him in some way. How do we know Snape is not a double agent - playing both sides against each other, for his personal safety/power/something?

I know we are meant to feel pity for him, with that scene in the pensieve with James and Sirius tormenting him, but I STILL DON'T TRUST HIM!!!

I'd love to hear everyone's theories.

Apologies if this discussion exists somewhere else - I just couldn't find it.

[lepercaunman41]

i tihnk that the thing voldy said at the end of 4th book was refurring to karhoff.. and thats an interesting theory he could be playing both sides.. but i tihnk he is on the good side because he probably feel safer with dumbledore

[FredRocksMySocks]

For now, I think he' on our side, and I don't think he'd really try to go against DD, right under his nose, though Snapes fascination with the Dark arts does make me wonder! I dunno...as much as I dislike Snape, I think he'll stay on the Order side. At least I hope!

[Dumbledore's style]

RE:
"i tihnk that the thing voldy said at the end of 4th book was refurring to karhoff"

the comment that was referring to Karkaroff was "one is too scared to return - he will be dealt with" - we know this because Moody/Crouch Karkaroff later says that Karkaroff fled during the last task.

[wahsup86]

I believe he is on the side of good for now, but his contempt for Harry and the maurauders has driven him to extremes before (end of book three). Think about it, he was ready to hand over Black when he more than likely KNEW he was good. I think he is good, but his hatred for Harry might drive him to do some Dark Arts things.

[familiar]

I think Snape is on Voldemort's side. He's a double agent who looks after himself first. He has too much hate inside of him and grudgingly accepts Dumbledore as Headmaster. I wonder if he'll sell out totally to Voldemort if it means he can get Harry (and his last rememberance of James) killed.

I would like to find out what happened to Karkaroff, though...

[Joshman687]

I trust Dumbledore's judgement. If DUmbledore truly trusts Snape, he obviously has a very good reason for doing so. Dumbledore is the wisest wizard in the world with the exception of the dark lord. Logic points out that chances are, Snape cannot fool DUmbledore. I think that Dumbldore's intelligence far exceds the perception that we are given from the books. Rowling keeps adressing new types of magic (i.e. Occulmency) that deepens the plot. DSUmbledores knowledge goes much deeper

[familiar]

I think there is something bad about Snape. Look at this link (I copied the section below) for a warning about Snape from JKR.

http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/wizard/section/news.asp?s=1&pageNo=43

Stephen Fry: "Most characters like Snape are had to love but there is a sort of ambiquity - you can't quite decide - something sad about him - lonely and it's fascinating when you think he's going to be the evil one a party from Voldemort obviously in the first book then slowly you get this idea he's not so bad after all."

JKR: "Yes but you shouldn't think him too nice. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus definitely!"

[lorna]

this has been brought up before --- being nice has nothing to with being on the good side. As a matter of fact, if your going to be dealing with DEs on a regular basis you better not be too nice.
There is apparently another quote from Rowling that was made to a Europeon magazine in which she says Snape is a good man but not a kind one.
Now I've only heard about that quote, I've never seen but it does seem to me to be the Snape we've seen in the books.
I think he might get tempted but I think he'll stay on the good side.

[dobbygirl]

For right now, Snape is on the good side. We do need to keep an eye on him though. Until I hear Dumbledore's reasons for why he trusts Snape so much, I'm not very inclined to trust Snape myself. And after learning in OotP that even Dumbledore is not infallible, I would still not be willing to trust Snape 100%.

[big_cho_fan]

I think in the end snape will go to the winning side, after all he is in slytherin.

[eVaNeScEnCe]

Snape's good. period. :D

[r3mUs Lup1n]

no i have never doubted dumbledores judgement ever, snape is on the good side

[Arissya_00]

No matter how suspicious Snape may be, he is on the good side. The "lapdog" thing was used by Sirius to intimidate him, no other meaning to it. Like Hermione said, "If we can't trust Dumbledore, then we can't trust anyone." Dumbledore is wise. He must have seen something in Snape that we haven't, and neither does HArry.

[fairylights]

Dumbledore was fooled by the fake Moody, though. And maybe he was being modest but didn't he say he knew enough Legimency or whatever to know when he was being lied to? It didn't sound like his abilities in the field were spectacular. If Snape fooled Voldemort when he was a spy he could fool Dumbledore. And there was the bit where Voldemort said he feared Snape had left forever. He didn't say he knew or was sure, just that he feared it. And how does he still have the Malfoys' respect if he deserted Voldemort? I don't trust him, and I won't until we find out why Dumbledore does.

[dantares]

I think Snape is a double agent. He reacts the same way as Bellatrix when he heard Harry saying You Know Who's proper name. And we know how loyal Bellatrix is.

[Mad-I Moody]

fiarylights, I think you have a good point about the Legilimency thing. Snape says outright that he can block out someone trying to tell if he is lying or not -- so it follows that he could prevent Dumbledore from knowing whether or not he was lying. Plus, he refers to Voldemort as "The Dark Lord."

What an immensely complex character. I hope we find out everything we want to know about him!

[Steffie]

what if karakov is the one that has left "lord thingy's" side forever and will be killed and that voldemort thinks that snape is the one "too cowardly to return"?! It could be possible.... We don't know what has happened to karakov, yet...

[FlarbyGarby]

I quite confused on this matter...:??:
But we know that the books are mainly from Harry's perspective...and the side of Snape that Harry has seen is only one side, even if that side if mean miserable bullying git...
(but if I was Snape and if I had to teach the son of some I hated, someone that showed off my greying underwear to the whole school while I was still in them, I wouldn't show him much love either (tho I'd probably try harder to teach him fairly)and the Neville thing is NASTY))
ANYWAY the point I'm trying to make is that...Snape is like an onion...he has layers, very weird gunked up layers but layers all the same. I don't feel theres enough evidence not to trust Dumbledore's opinion on him....
I'm sure he's lovely underneath it all

[Steffie]

So what your saying is Snape=Shrek and Dumbledore=donkey ;) It has a truth to it. Well I guess we just have to waith, but jk better shed some light on this issue in the next book, because at this point I don't know wheter to hug him or to smother him and it driving me crazy !

[fairylights]

I can understand why he might have something against Harry, but Snape is a pain to everyone. He knows that Neville's parents were tortured to insanity and does he cut the boy some slack? Because of Voldemort, Harry's parents are dead and Neville's are insane, and I can understand if hatred for James over-rules in Harry's case. But there is no reason to be like that with Neville. If Snape was really in the Order and a bona fide good guy, wouldn't he show some feeling for Neville and Harry? Wouldn't he do that out of respect for the Longbottoms, even if he has no respect for Jame's memory?

[Andromeda_Black]

I really dont like Snape so I am always suspicious of him. I do agree that just because someone isn't nice doesn't neccessarily mean they are on the dark side, it is just there are so many things about Snape that do not add up - the way he favours malfoy, calling Voldermort the "Dark Lord", his obsession with the dark arts etc

I think mainly though it's the legillimency thing. It gives him such potential to be two faced and makes him impossible to trust; because you can never be sure how much he knows or what he is really thinking .There must be a reason why Voldermort has not killed him for being a spy, how has he managed to convince Voldermort that he is on his side? One thing to say for Snape is that he is a preety clever Wizard to fool either Voldermort or Dumbledore,and he must be fooling one of them. I think it's most likely to be Dumbledore. I dont understand why everyone is so willing to accept that if dumbledore trusts him he is Ok. Dumbledore has been wrong several times before - Wormtail, Moody (Crouch), Quirell. We learnt from book 5 that Dumbledore is only human and does make mistakes, I have a feeling his trust in Snape will be his biggest mistake of all.

[lorna]

I don't think we should too hung up on the "Dumbledore makes mistakes"
thing either.
The trouble with the whole occulemency/legilemency thing is that if you followed through to it's logical conclusion Dumbledore should know everything about everybody, shouldn't he.
Like the timeturner, the mindreading has it's place but don't be asking to many logic questions regarding it. After all, use a time turner, go back to the night Harry is attacked and get Voldie before he gets into James and Lily's house. It's not like the Ministry wouldn't know where he was at that particular time.
Of course there is that pesky not altering the time line thing but come
---- it's Voldemort.

[Moonstone]

If Snape was working secretly for Voldemort, then the series could have been ended with OotP. Snape could have allowed Harry and the gang to have gone the the Ministry without calling in the rescue party and the Death Eaters would have had Harry and the prophecy. But he didn't.

Yes, Dumbledore makes mistakes, but Dumbledore knows much more about Snape than we do at this point. And if the other members of the Order of the Phoenix are willing to bet their lives in part on Snape's information, then this implies he has their trust as well.

[Fairydust]

He's on Dumbledore's side. I won't believe otherwise until there is clear hard proof that he's really working for Voldemort.

[Rose Zeller]

Y'know Snape is a real wild card, I'm not sure what he'll do next.
If he was a real bad guy, he won't have informed the Order about what Harry said to him in Umbridge's office.
As for my predictions;
there's going to a line drawn in the sand in the next book that's for sure.
I believe that the first or second chapter of the new book will have to have Sirius's funeral, then maybe the trial of the Death Eaters that were captured at the Ministry, I think both Harry and Snape may become winesses for that trial. One way or another I think that Snape and Harry have to make peace and Harry has to learn occlumency.

[Morgan LeFay]

Y'know Snape is a real wild card, I'm not sure what he'll do next.
If he was a real bad guy, he won't have informed the Order about what Harry said to him in Umbridge's office.
As for my predictions;
there's going to a line drawn in the sand in the next book that's for sure.
I believe that the first or second chapter of the new book will have to have Sirius's funeral, then maybe the trial of the Death Eaters that were captured at the Ministry, I think both Harry and Snape may become winesses for that trial. One way or another I think that Snape and Harry have to make peace and Harry has to learn occlumency.

First of all, no matter is he bad or good, I love Snape. He's a great character, extremely inteligent. You think you know him, this greasy haired git, who hates almost everyone. But he does something like saving Harry's life in book one, or informing the order about Harry's dream in book five and you are not that sure anymore.
When I was thinking about who will die in book four, I thought about Snape. And in one moment I was sure that he can't die, because it would be a great lost for the book. It won't be the same school without our most-hated professor.

He can't be the witness, because he doesn't have anything to do with the case. He were not in the DoM, and nobody knows what side he is really on.
Will Sirius have a furneal? I don't think James and Lily had one. Harry would know and go on the gravejard they are lying on. But Harry is strange, he didn't even ask where they were living. I do not understand him.

I can't wait to see if Severus Snape is better or worse than we think. But anyway, I love thet character.

[Sabine]

I can understand why he might have something against Harry, but Snape is a pain to everyone. He knows that Neville's parents were tortured to insanity and does he cut the boy some slack? Because of Voldemort, Harry's parents are dead and Neville's are insane, and I can understand if hatred for James over-rules in Harry's case. But there is no reason to be like that with Neville. If Snape was really in the Order and a bona fide good guy, wouldn't he show some feeling for Neville and Harry? Wouldn't he do that out of respect for the Longbottoms, even if he has no respect for Jame's memory?

You know, fairylights, I quoted your post, but it isn't you alone I want to referr to. I've found it all over the forums.... Harry and Neville have such a burden why doesn't Snape show "mercy" or whatever for them??????

I think the point is ... IT WOULDN'T BE LIKE REALITY! In reality you have to deal with people who are really nice, you have people who really suck, others that seem to be nice but turn out to be a fake, others who seem to be bad but turn out real nice....

Thats life. Its part of life to have to deal with completely different people. To learn to go along with them.

What would be the big importance to make almost everything "nice and easy" for Harry. How should he learn to cope with "normal life" if everything is just "peachy".

Dumbledore said somewhere in the first book, that in living with the Dursleys, Harry's no spoiled little prince (something in this line) and that might have been so, if he had grewn up in the wizarding world.

How do you think Harry should go against someone like Voldemort when he is not able to manage someone like Snape?

Oh and besides, I think Snape is on the good side.

Sabine

[Crackpot]

With everything he's done so far--saving Harry's life in SS, resuming spywork, then the numerous things he did in OotP--wouldn't it be kind of pointless for Snape to suddenly turn out to be a bad guy after all? It seems to be entirely too much trouble to bother with, even as a double agent...

I think he's simply a good guy who's an :censored:. (And before you flame me for that comment, keep in mind that it is BECAUSE Snape's such an :censored: that I adore him. ;) )

[Prof.Aze]

I am pretty sure that Snape has really left the Dark Side. Remember Voldemort speaking in Book 4 that one has left us forever. I am pretty sure that he was speaking about Snape.

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

I am pretty sure that Snape has really left the Dark Side. Remember Voldemort speaking in Book 4 that one has left us forever. I am pretty sure that he was speaking about Snape.

Ah, yes, but Voldemort's statement there could be twisted around in many ways. He could have been speaking about Snape or Karkaroff.


I'm not too sure about Snape. I don't think he would spy for Voldemort, but it's hard to say. Snape is a very complex character, possibly the most complex character in the whole series, and only the next two books will tell who's side Snape is truly on.

[legallybrunette]

I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that Voldemort has less power than Dumbledore and fears Dumbledore. If this is true, there is no way that Snape will be able to out smart Dumbledore. I wouldn't be surprised if he did something to make us doubt his allegience and what side he really is on in Book 6, but deep down, I think he's going to be on the side of good.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Ah, yes, but Voldemort's statement there could be twisted around in many ways. He could have been speaking about Snape or Karkaroff.


I think everyone is trying to twist LV's words to get to omany meanings out of it. Go with what is logical, and what is most likely. The one who has left is Snape and the coward is Karkaroff. There are way too many hurdles to leap to try to make it so Snape is the coward or Karkaroff has left forever. And would that make sense? No.

[pufflepuff]

I believe that Snape is pretending to be mean. He could be pretending to hate Harry and like Malfoy in order to spy on Lucious Malfoy. Snape is a very intelligent man. He is head of a house and a trusted teacher. It's hard for be to believe that he could be so petty, regardless of his relationship with Harry's parents. Also he was a Death Eater and he chose to come back to the good side. He knows what the Death Eaters and Voldemort are all about, and he knows that Lucious is a Death Eater. It is also safe to assume that Lucious is teaching Draco to follow in his footsteps. Taking all of this into consideration are we really supposed to believe that he would love and favor a terrible little Death Eater child.

[Hufflepuffy]

I believe that Snape is pretending to be mean. He could be pretending to hate Harry and like Malfoy in order to spy on Lucious Malfoy.

I'm pretty sure Snape's hate for Harry is real. Well, not so much of Harry, but of James. He's still bitter about the way James treated him when they were at Hogwarts together. I think the only reason Snape favorts Malfoy is because he's in his house.

And of course, he has no reason to spy on Lucius now that he's in Azkaban.

I believe Snape was always a spy for Dumbledore, and his loyalty has always been with the Order. In OotP, Snape said that Voldemort couldn't sense that he was lying because he was gifted in Occulemency, and I believe this gift was what enabled him to be such a good spy.

I think underneath, he's a pretty good guy. But that doesn't mean he has to like Harry.

[Crackpot]

I believe Snape was always a spy for Dumbledore, and his loyalty has always been with the Order.

This is the same theory I've been believing ever since I read GoF...I remember trying to explain it to my roommate, whom I turned into a fan, but while she loves Snape, she thought Sirius was cooler, so she absolutely refused to believe in the theory...though I noticed she didn't seem particularly fond of Sirius any more, after reading my copy of OotP, and didn't even seem too torn up that he kicked the bucket...so perhaps she will believe that theory now.

[ASC]

I remind you that at the middle of OotP, Harry thought that he, Voldermort possessing him, actually attacked Mr. Weasley. Ginny ask:

“'Well, can you remember everything you've been doing?' Ginny asked. 'Are there big blank periods where you don't know that you've been up to?'
Harry racked his brains.
'No,' he said.
Then You-Know-Who hasn't ever possessed you,' said Ginny simply. 'When he did it to me, I couldn't remember what I'd been doing for hours at a time. I'd find myself somewhere and not know how I got there.'”

Well now, flash-forward to Chapter 26 and Prof. Snape.

“Harry opened his eyes. He was flat on his back again with no memory of having got there; he was also panting as though he really had run the length of the Department of Mysteries corridor, really had sprinted through the black door and found the circular room.”

What is Prof. Snape really doing during these lessons? Is that last passage meaningful?

No matter the slant you take on Prof. Snape, I think you will find the following to be truthfully alarming. Prof. Snape has been the 'evil' good character in the books thus far. At first we just knew Snape was behind the attempts to steal the philosopher's stone, knock Harry off of his nimbus, and other deeds of evilness. Invariable though, we always were surprised that Snape was not behind these attempts, and that he was even helping to foil them in most cases. A theme derived through the Philosopher's Stone to the Order of the Phoenix is that no matter how hateful, jealous, or mean Snape is, he is not an evil character. We have eliminated the possibility of Snape working against the Order or Harry. We always rationalize Snape's behavior by saying “Snape is mean and hateful character, but he is not evil." We can no longer take Snape's innocents as a given and dismiss any theory that implicates Snape. Snape might be working for Voldemort; he might be working for himself, or he might be working for the Order.


ASC

[rons-lover]

I don't know what to think of Snape.... I just love him.! :D

[Death_Eater]

I think Snape is a goodie guy. ^_^Well...truthfully...I don't think he is on Voldies side..though...he could have his own plans out there...without siding with Voldie. Why?

Hrmmm...lets se...

1) Someone said he would want to kill him/ anything reminding him of James. I disagree with that. If he is evil, I think he would have let Quirrel kill Harry in PS. He had no reason to save his life. Just because James' saved his....He even said that he was pissed because he thought James was in on it. He probably thought James "saved" him to gain more popularity. He has had ample time to kill him. In POA at the end, he could have taken Harry and Sirius straight to the Dementors back at the gates, but he didn't.

2) Im pretty sure that Voldemort would know that he didn't turn up to the graveyard. What would he gain by going to his side? I really don't think he is stronger than Voldie, thus not enabling him to block his mind from him. Voldie is the most powerful Dark Wizard out there, I do not think that Snape would be able to hide anything from him.

I like what someone said about him having his own plans. I can totally agree with that. He could have his own plans on how to go about things. He could kill members of the Order for his own uses/needs, not for Voldies needs. He could do the same with Voldie, he could kill his supporters for his own purposes, not for the Order.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I can't see him having his own plans, mainly because I can't see the motive. I think he's totally with the Order right now, but would be surprised if he doesn't betray something by the end of the series.

[MagicGeek]

In my copy of GoF, during the scene when Harry is in Dumbledore's office after being taken out of the pensive, Dumbledore shows him some things in the pensive. One of the things is Snape's face saying "It's coming back...Karkaroff's too...stronger than ever". I cannot see what else he would be referring to but the Dark Mark. My point here is that, if he were on the side of bad, I doubt he would have told Dumbledore about his Dark Mark, since the plan was (according to Sirius and Lupin in book five) to not have anybody but the Death Eaters know about Voldemort's return. That is my greatest clue that he is on the side of good, ultimately (and when he showed his visible mark to Fudge, in front of a roomful of people, including Harry, to try to get Fudge to see the truth).

Of course, I don't think it was easy for him to leave the Death Eaters. I mean, they were probably his only friends. And he may well be torn with emotions/love for any or all of those he left behind (my theory that he was having a love affair with Lucius Malfoy, but was so heartbroken at Malfoy's marriage that he actually switched sides has not gained much support anywhere else, but I'm sticking to it anyway). I think he might also not feel like he belongs anywhere, so he sometimes feels he is not on either side. He might feel that people don't want him on the "good" side, that people hate him no matter what he does. So I think he is screwed up and twitchy with it, but I think he's clever enough to see what's right and who's going to win. And if abandoning people you might care for and risking your own life in the process just to be on the side that's winning isn't Slytherin ambition, I don't know what is.

[thesnitch_and_you]

I think that Snape is the only character I cannot decide whether to like or hate. I just know that I really really felt sorry for him during "Snapes worst memory". Also, sometimes I have too see his perspectives on how he treats harry...... many times, Harry and ron are not paying attention in class and are goofing around. If I were a teacher, I would be pissed too. Also, If I were faced every day in the workplace with seeing the spitting image of someone who was my enemy in school, I think I would become a little vengeful. But why, oh why did Rowling say in that interview NOT to feel too sorry for him?
Also, must bring up my theory that Snapes father was some horrible awful wizard that mabey finally abandoned the family. Poor severus, looking for a role model to fill that gap latches onto Malfoy. (I dont know the age difference, but even if he were a year older only, it would work) So, he continues with his dark arts and falls deeper and deeper into the grasps of Voldemort because he finally feels like he belongs. In the back of his mind, though, is this nagging thought that this is wrong. Dumbledore, somehow gets through to Snape and convinces him that it doesnt have to be this way. Snape relents, joins the order, and turns against Voldemort. The problem he faces, and what makes him so cranky sometimes, is that he still longs for the belonging that he had with the death eaters and the dark wizards, but he has realized that Dumbledore is right and is loyal to him. Hmmmmmmm new thought. I wonder if his mother was into dark arts too, or if she just had a bad choice in husband.
(thanks for letting me do that, now I HAVE to go do my homework)

[eVaNeScEnCe]

you know, what is so intriguing about Snape is the fact that he's not what you'd expect from your typical "hero". In fact, he's more of a byronic hero than the epic or conventional hero. He doesn't display many heroic good guy attributes, yet he still garners the trust and sympathy from those who know about him. True, he can be a real a**hole at times(almost every time actually) and I recognize that his behavior for the most part is unreasonable, unjustifiable, and just down right mean(especially towards Neville and Harry) But what I love about him so much-aside from his complex, mysterious, and multi-layered character-is the potential he has to redeem himself and make the right choices. I've always held out hope that Snape at the end will be vinidicated somehow. I guess it's just the hopeless romantic in me :D . But honestly, I've really become fascinated with this character and I hope J.K. doesn't botch him up. anyway, that's my two cents. Ciao. ;)

[Loz]

I believe Snape is on the good side. I'd be extremely annoyed if it turned out he was working for Voldemort all along. If he was working for himself and his own dark purposes, then okay, but not Voldemort.

I think Snape is the prime example that not everyone who is good behaves in a nice and sweet-tempered manner. He is the evil git who is actually not evil at all. It would weaken the main thrust of the series irreparably if he were to end up being a minion to the Dark Lord.

He's an anti-hero as opposed to a hero, mysterious, surly, and every shade of grey imaginable.

[Elviriel]

I don't know either if I hate Snape or not. What we saw from him in Occlumency and the pensieve really made me feel sorry for him. I don't think he works for Voldemort. He's on the good side I'm almost sure of it. But I don't get why Dumbledore trusts him so much ... Maybe a member of his family died because of Voldemort ... maybe he was even married !

[Nelran]

This may have been discussed before, but I couldn't find it...

Which side is Snape really on?

At the end of book 4, Voldie says "one of our number I fear has left us forever - he will be killed" (or something to that effect)...this doesn't sound like Voldie knew Snape was a spy - otherwise he would surely have said something about him 'betraying' him. We know that Snape is an excellent Occlumence, and can peform legilimancy too...but could he really outwit Voldie?

In book 5, Sirius (I think) says that Snape is Lucius Malfoys little dog - working for him in some way. How do we know Snape is not a double agent - playing both sides against each other, for his personal safety/power/something?

I know we are meant to feel pity for him, with that scene in the pensieve with James and Sirius tormenting him, but I STILL DON'T TRUST HIM!!!

I'd love to hear everyone's theories.

Apologies if this discussion exists somewhere else - I just couldn't find it.


There are two Snapes playing in the books. There is the Snape who had a bad time at school and sees in Harry, all that made him miserable, so he punishes Harry for it, because with Harry he has power to do so but with James he couldn't.

Then you have the career man Snape. Someone who due to his experiences as a child sets himself up with those with power to keep himself from falling into a trap of utter abandonment as he became an adult. I believe that Dumbledore has him working as a double agent, feeding the Death Eaters what they want to know and reporting this back to Dumbledore. In fact, I wonder whether Snape has always played a double-agent role at Hogwarts under Dumbledore's instructions. This may explain why he's resisted Snape being DADA teacher.

[Starrlight]

Snape's good, and Voldy knows it. Graveyard speech--Barty is the faithful servant, Karakof the coward, and he now seems to know that Snape is a spy--though he probably didn't 13 years ago. Snape's in real danger now.

I think in the end, Snape will do something heroic, but live, and remain bitter and isolated because he can't let the past go. At the end of Book 5, Harry thinks that he hates Snape more than he ever has, blaming him for Sirius's death even though Harry made wrong choices like not going to Snape after escaping Umbridge thanks to Grawp. By the end of the series, Harry will accept his mistakes, forgive those who have done him ill, and become a wiser and more well-rounded person (like Dumbledore and Lupin) because he, in part, he himself will see what Snape has become by allowing bitterness to overwhelm his life. I'd like to see Snape change and have a chance at happiness--but in the end I'm afraid he won't, instead he will always represent what Harry might have become if he hadn't chosen the Dumbledore/Lupin route, instead of the Snape (and dare I say, Sirius) route.

[padfootLives]

yes it is true that dumbledore trust him, and don't know wether or not dumbledore can be fooled, but it is true that like others DD can make mistake (i mean nobody is perfect)
as you've guessed : i can't help it ! i just can't trust severus snape !

i mean it's an interesting characters (maybe the most interresting !) but i don't trust him
and remerber that JK did said something like : you must stop thinking that snape have more good in him than meets the eye, definitly keep an eye on him !!

in the same interview she said that dumbledore won't let him have the DADA job because he is afraid that : It might bring back the worse in im !

see ya (and once again i apoligize for my english !)

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I think that from the graveyard speach Voldemort knows that Snape is not on his side. But as someone mentioned, he may not believe that he is on Dumbledore's side either. I think that LV thinks Snape is just disenchanted with Voldemort (and therefore must be killed) but he thinks didn't actually betray him. What side Snape is really on is anyone's guess, although right now the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Snape working solely for the Order. But remember JKR's quote that we should keep an eye on him? I think that Snape may waver a little between the two sides in Book 7.

[lorna]

JK Rowling said "we must not think of Snape as too nice" and to keep an eye on him. That is not the same thing as "having more good in him that meets the eye"
When I read that statement it tells me, simply, that Snape isn't suddenly going to become Saint Severus and start group hugs and stuff, he'll stay his irritable, sarcastic self which isn't very nice.
But one can still do the right thing.
If Snape suddenly does do that tricky u-turn back to stereotypical
evil guy in long black clothes, I think it would be a real letdown.
And what message does that send? You are what you look like (how hard was it to figure Wormtongue or the Sheriff of Nottingham were the bad guys) , have a bad childhood, be a bad person? (don't give Harry as another example of a bad childhood, since his eleven birthday Harry has met mostly with approval and love. No one has hung him upside down for the fun of it)
There are times I wonder if Rowling hasn't written herself into a bit of
a box re: Snape.

[CarolynNC]

I believe Snape was a Death Eater who became disenchanted with Voldemort's ideas. Maybe he found out Voldie wasn't the pure blood he was always harping about. I think he might have changed his loyalties at some point and approached Dumbledore. In Karkaroff's pensive trial Dumbledore said something about Snape leaving the Death Eaters before the downfall of Voldemort. (I hate it when I don't have the book to fall back on for information so don't quote me on that!) I think when Voldemort was vanquished Snape came to Hogwarts. (When Umbridge asked Snape how long he'd been at Hogswart he responded 14 years. That would have been right around the same time.) Maybe he told the remaining Death Eaters that would be a great place to spy on Dumbledore and company. If he still wished the Death Eaters to think he was spying for their cause he'd want Draco to report his actions back to his dad. He'd need to be nasty to anyone who was not a Slytherine. He probably still harbors some of the feelings from his youth. He hated James and lets that hate spill over on Harry. I'm not sure why Neville gets the same type backlash. There must be something there we haven't seen or picked up on.

[dantares]

I like to think that Snape is still with Voldemort. For one thing, he gets worked up when Harry said Voldemort, just like Lucius and Bellatrix. And he did not finish his lessons with Harry. I feel sorry for him but i just don't see him as a good person.

[Fleur du mal]

to Caroline:I agree with just everything you say. I've seen enough teachers in the real world who were neither racists nor psychotics nor murderers (at least I hope they weren't? :scared: ), treating one student like Snape treats Neville. Picking on Neville isn't a good sign of a just and wonderful stainless character but also says nothing about being a dark wizard in the end.
Plus: Dumbledore knows exactly how good Snape is in this whole Legilimens business, otherwise he wouldn't ask him to teach precious Harry. Dumbledore might appear to be a fool at times, but I think he'd double-check and check again on a guy like Snape. So if he trusts him, I might as well ;) .

[chop]

I like to think that Snape is still with Voldemort. For one thing, he gets worked up when Harry said Voldemort, just like Lucius and Bellatrix. And he did not finish his lessons with Harry. I feel sorry for him but i just don't see him as a good person.

I partially agree with you, I can't see Snape as a good person, I can understand (after OotP) why he hates Harry so much and why he is willing to make Harry's life really miserable, but I can't find any motivation to mistreat Neville the way he does, even if he is a Pureblood racist (fairly probable being head of Slytherin house), Neville is completely pureblood. On the other hand, he must know what happened to Neville parents, hasn't had Neville enough to cope with? If he really had changed sides, he should be really sorry for Neville.

On the other hand, this just proves he is a really mean and nasty kind of person, but doesn't proves he still a DE.

[story]

He may have a split personality, works for both sides?

[Tomnoddy]

My own pet theory is this. Snape was in love with Lily Evans. When he found out that Voldemort was going to Godrics Hollow to try and kill Harry, Snape made the decision to defect and and warn Lily. In the movie of PS, when you see Lily trying to defend Harry, you can see the shoulder and arm of someone else in the room with Lily, James we know is already dead at this point. I've heard it suggested that this figure is Sirius or maybe Lupin, I think its Snape, caught at Godrics Hollow when Voldemort arrives. This is why Dumbledore trusts Snape he risked his life to save someone he loved, its also why he dislikes Harry so much, Harry is a constant reminder of what, in his mind, could have been Snapes own family.

[chop]

:welcome: to the Forums Tomnoddy!

My own pet theory is this. Snape was in love with Lily Evans. When he found out that Voldemort was going to Godrics Hollow to try and kill Harry, Snape made the decision to defect and and warn Lily. In the movie of PS, when you see Lily trying to defend Harry, you can see the shoulder and arm of someone else in the room with Lily, James we know is already dead at this point. I've heard it suggested that this figure is Sirius or maybe Lupin, I think its Snape, caught at Godrics Hollow when Voldemort arrives. This is why Dumbledore trusts Snape he risked his life to save someone he loved, its also why he dislikes Harry so much, Harry is a constant reminder of what, in his mind, could have been Snapes own family.

I think your theory has several flaws:

1) We see from DD pensieve Snape was already spying on LV well before that night. We see from DD speech at Karkaroff trial:
"Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."
(Bold is mine)
2) If he (or any other) would have been there, I'm pretty sure they would be dead inmediatly (knowing LV character...)
3) I wouldn't put too much faith in something appearing in the movies and not in the books (even if this shoulder or arm really appears on the movie, wich I don't remember just now)

[story]

I believe that scene was written by JK. And I always woundered if the figure we see is actually Voldemort or Snape

[Lil Red Head]

I can understand why he might have something against Harry, but Snape is a pain to everyone. He knows that Neville's parents were tortured to insanity and does he cut the boy some slack? Because of Voldemort, Harry's parents are dead and Neville's are insane, and I can understand if hatred for James over-rules in Harry's case. But there is no reason to be like that with Neville. If Snape was really in the Order and a bona fide good guy, wouldn't he show some feeling for Neville and Harry? Wouldn't he do that out of respect for the Longbottoms, even if he has no respect for Jame's memory?

Here's my thinking on this one. I think that Snape is working for the good guys, but he's still got the baddies convinced that he's a baddie too. So in order to keep up the bad guy appearances, he has to be seen to bully the good guy mascots, particularly Harry and Neville. And Hermione plays well into that as well. If Snape is trying to convince the top baddies (like Malfoy, for instance) he can play on their prejudices with Hermoine and her Muggle heritage.

I think it is easier for him to display hate for Harry because of the way James treated him and it is noted repeatedly that Harry looks a lot like James did. So Harry looks like James at the age when James was picking on Snape. (I think Snape's emotions sometimes get the better of him when he's dealing with Harry.)

So, if Snape cannot show any favoritism towards Harry and Neville, he can force them into being better students with his "bullying to be better". Notice how Snape is constantly going on to Harry about knowing how to brew poison antidotes? So perhaps by being so hard on Harry and Neville, he's achieving 2 goals: keeping the baddies convinced that he's a baddie too (and he's got the perfect mouthpiece to report back in Draco), and helping Harry and Neville to learn the skills they need to fight certain attacks.

Ok, let the poking of holes begin. :lol:

[Spirit]

I think that Snape is on Dumbledore's side, and he might switch sometime, but I find that unlikely. I just think that he is too good to be bad, too bad to be good.

[GryffindorGr]

Um, I thought Dumbledore was MOST wise? So why would he entrust Snape? If he trusts Snape then, Snape is on the good side, but Snape is still a Slytherin so he has tendancies of temptation I imagine. But when you put trust in someone that big, like DD does, it would be imprudent of Snape to betray him. Besides I think DD knows more than what meets the eye. Like he's some kind of person who can see within a person''s character.

[Lupin_Lady]

He is good. But I think he remains a little on the edge so that he can stay 'in' with people like the Malfoys and Karkarof. DD wouldn't trust him if he had any tendencies at all for going back over to the other side.

[Lord_Nemecis]

I believe Dumbledore would not be so naive to trust just Snape's word. I'm sure there is some kind of magical pact between them. Don't forget that after the incident in Dumbledore's pensieve, Harry asked him y he trusted him and Dumbledore replied that this was a matter between him and Snape... Well it could be anything, but surely is something that compells Snape not to betray them.

Nevertheless, whatever Snape's intentions would be, I believe Voldemort knows the truth. He knows what Snape's role is. And for the time he is using him, feeding him with inaccurate information or just wauts the fatal moment to do so. And after Snape will have served his purpose, he will be disposed be the dark lord.

[lilyp]

I think Snape is on his own side. And now it means being a member of the Order but it can change. I think that when he was a Death Eater he realised that he would have to be a servant to the Dark Lord, he would have no autonomy if the Dark Lord ruled. So he went to the other side.
Now he knows only Harry can vanquish Voldemort. That is why, despite all his hate for the boy, he won't let im die. But after Harry gets rid of Voldy, I think Snape will turn against Harry and Dumbledore.

[Lupin_Lady]

In GOF LV is talking about the Death Eaters and he says that 'one has left him forever'. I think that's Snape. Dumbledore possibly put a spell on him to make sure that he cannot go back to the dark side...

"Forever is a long time."

[vmonte]

I'm starting to think that Snape is a one man team. He may be playing the part of a double agent but I never get the impression that he is on either side. He seems to do only enough to satisfy both Dumbledore and Voldemort. Snape is a powerful manipulator. In one of the books (I cannot remember where) I seem to remember MaGonagall (someone let me know if I'm remembering this correctly) stating that words are often more powerful than magic. This is how I feel about Snape. He is great at verbal manipulation.
I sometimes think that Snape is not on the side of Dumbledore's OOTP, nor Voldemort's DE. He seems to have contempt for both sides, and enjoys manipulating people from both camps.

He may be waiting for each side to self destruct so that he can then make his move for power. He does just enough to please, not more.

Snape has been trying to get Harry and his friends expelled from school since day one. Why is that if he is on Dumbledore's side? Is he just upset because the children cannot follow rules or are they in the way of his ultimate goal? And is he really doing what Dumbledore wants or does he do just enough to please-- while getting a ringside view of OOTP operations (as well as DE operations).

I feel that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death. How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while he was at the OOTP headquarters? I remember him basically calling Sirius a coward (several times). I think he wanted Sirius out of the way and he knew that his verbal attacks would work to get Sirius out in the open, away from the safety of the headquarters, and in harms way.

I also believe that Snape purposefully wanted Harry to see his memories. I think he did not want to teach Harry the Occulmency lessons, but needed an excuse to stop (an exuse that Dumbledore would buy). Snape's memories are very odd. There are several times that Snape's mind has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. You see Snape transfixed with what he is reading (in his memory), yet he has recorded conversations and events outside his field of vision and hearing?! Snape even sees what is happening around him when he is hanging upside down with his clothes over his head. Why is this? Are these memories completely true, or are they slightly altered--for Harry's viewing pleasure? I'm not sure. Why did Snape tell Harry not to tell anyone what he saw (what makes Snape think that Sirius didn't already tell him this story)? Was it really because it was a humiliating experience, or because fact was intermixed with fiction? I wonder what Hermione would have thought of this memory? (I wonder what Dobby thinks of Snape?)

The bottom line is that I think Snape did not want Harry to see certain memories inside his head and that is why he stopped the Occulmency lessons. Snape is hiding something larger. I also think that Snape was afraid that too much personal contact with Harry would make the DE aware of his involvement in the OOTP (if he is working against both sides he cannot let the other know his true objectives).

I also think that during the dueling scene (between Draco and Harry in book 2) Snape was testing Harry's abilities. Snape whispered into Draco's ear the spell which materialized the snake. Maybe Snape wanted to see if Harry really had any of Voldemort's powers.

I think that Snape loathes Dumbledore just as much as Voldemort. Dumbledore because he is too emotionally soft to lead, and Voldemort for many reasons. First of all Voldemort is a "mudblood"--Snape has made his feelings for "mudbloods" very clear. Voldemort is also an idiot (unlike Snape who is very clever and shrewd). I mean how many times can you be beat by a kid and still look cool? And not last, Voldemort wastes his time running around looking for a useless prophecy (which would have never been fullfilled if he just had ignored it), chasing young children instead of getting on with conquering the world.

Dumbledore may trust Snape because Snape lets Dumbledore see his true feelings for Voldemort, while at the same time he conceals his true feelings for Dumbledore.

[FarhanaK]

I'm starting to think that Snape is a one man team. He may be playing the part of a double agent but I never get the impression that he is on either side. He seems to do only enough to satisfy both Dumbledore and Voldemort. Snape is a powerful manipulator. In one of the books (I cannot remember where) I seem to remember MaGonagall (someone let me know if I'm remembering this correctly) stating that words are often more powerful than magic. This is how I feel about Snape. He is great at verbaly manipulating others.
I sometimes think that Snape is not on the side of Dumbledore's OOTP, nor Voldemort's DE. I think he has contempt for both sides, and is manipulating them.
He may be waiting for both sides to destroy each other so that he can then make his move for power. He does just enough to please both sides, while at the same time manipulates events as he sees fit.

Snape has been trying to get Harry and his friends expelled from school since day one. Why is that if he is on Dumbledore's side? Is he really doing what Dumbledore wants or does he do just enough to please while getting a ringside view of OOTP operations (as well as DE operations).

I feel that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death. How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while he was at the OOTP headquarters? I remember him basically calling Sirius a coward (many times). I think he wanted Sirius out of the way and he knew that his verbal attacks would work to get Sirius out in the open and in harms way.

I also believe that Snape purposefully wanted Harry to see his memories. I think he did not want to teach Harry the Occulmency lessons, but needed an excuse to stop. Snape's memories are very odd. There are several times that Snape's memory has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. You see Snape transfixed with what he is reading in his memory, yet he has recorded other conversations and events outside his field of vision and hearing?! Snape even sees what is happening around him when he is hanging upside down with his clothes over his head. Why is this? Are these memories completely true, or are they slightly altered--for Harry's viewing pleasure? I'm not sure. Why did Snape tell Harry not to tell anyone what he saw (what makes Snape think that Sirius didn't already tell him this story)? Was it really because it was a humiliating experience, or because fact was intermixed with fiction? I wonder what Hermione would have thought of this memory?

I think that Snape did not want Harry to see certain memories inside his head and that is why he stopped the Occulmency lessons. Snape is hiding something. I also think that Snape was afraid that too much personal contact with Harry would make the DE aware of his involvement in the OOTP (if he is working against both sides he cannot let the other know his true objectives).

I think that Snape loathes Dumbledore just as much as Voldemort. Voldemort after all is really only a "mudblood," and Snape has made his feelings for "mudbloods" very clear. Snape is very quick minded and a snob!
In fact, Voldemort on the other hand seems to be an idiot--unlike Snape who is very clever and shrewd. Voldemort wastes his time running around looking for a useless prophecy (which would have never been fullfilled if he just had ignored it), and chasing young children instead of getting on with conquering the world.
Dumbledore may trust Snape because Snape lets Dumbledore see his true feelings for Voldemort, while at the same time he conceals his true feelings for Dumbledore.
you know I never really thought about Snape...but he is just weird dude while I was reading this.I am not joking...

[Nick]

There was an old Roman emperor called Severus. He was able to keep control of both the military and the civilians. But he was fully severe - that's where we get the word from. Machiavelli had much to say on him.

[FarhanaK]

There was an old Roman emperor called Severus. He was able to keep control of both the military and the civilians. But he was fully severe - that's where we get the word from. Machiavelli had much to say on him.
I never knew that...is this in Greek mythology or whatever that is...

[UselessCharmMaster]

Great idea! Waah, he will be the next Greasy Dark Lord!! :eyebrows: :rotfl:

I don't think he's responsible for Sirius' death. It was Bellatrix who killed him (yeah, go, Bella, go!). And Sirius wasn't a child; he had full responsibility for his actions.

[Sabine]

interessting thoughts vmonte, but I don't think so


He may be waiting for each side to self destruct so that he can then make his move for power. He does just enough to please, not more.

If this would be the case, then why did Snape in SS/PS save Harry from the wild broomstick-ride? Snape may have owed one to Harrys father - but if Snape would really be so "selfserving" he wouldn't hand that "guilt" down to James' son?

It always struck me a little bit "funny" that only Snape noticed that Harrys broom was being hexed and only Snape took precautions to protect Harry. No other wizard or witch noticed and did anything - only Snape! So if he had decided to just let things happen, no one could have blamed him. He would have been perfectly safe.



I feel that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death. How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while he was at the OOTP headquarters? I remember him basically calling Sirius a coward (several times). I think he wanted Sirius out of the way and he knew that his verbal attacks would work to get Sirius out in the open, away from the safety of the headquarters, and in harms way.

We have also seen Sirius attacking Snape verbally .... Don't you think that if Sirius can "hand out" such remarks he should very well be able to get those back too?

Snape is in no way any saint. But try to look at the things we know by now from Snapes point of view: Snape and the marauders couldn't go along in school. It's not important that we know why. We know that the marauders did hex random people at hogwarts just because they were bored. We know that at least at one occasion they played a bad prank on Snape - and that with two against one! And we know that Sirius definitely tried to feed Snape to a fully grown werwolf. And after that event the marauders didn't get expelled - no - but Snape had to promise not to tell anyone!! In my opinion this should be regarded as "Sirius second chance" and Sirius only was able to have this chance because Snape didn't tell. Snape - even if not willingly - was involved in this second chance. Froms Snapes point of view the marauders could do what ever they pleased - they seemed to be geting off with everything.

You can't expect that someone who always gets provoked not sometimes "strikes back". Snape limits himself to strike back verbaly and this is something almost everybody does.

If you provoke someone then you better can stand to be provoked back!

I also believe that Snape purposefully wanted Harry to see his memories. I think he did not want to teach Harry the Occulmency lessons, but needed an excuse to stop (an exuse that Dumbledore would buy). Snape's memories are very odd. There are several times that Snape's mind has recorded events that he could not possibly have seen. You see Snape transfixed with what he is reading (in his memory), yet he has recorded conversations and events outside his field of vision and hearing?! Snape even sees what is happening around him when he is hanging upside down with his clothes over his head. Why is this? Are these memories completely true, or are they slightly altered--for Harry's viewing pleasure? I'm not sure. Why did Snape tell Harry not to tell anyone what he saw (what makes Snape think that Sirius didn't already tell him this story)? Was it really because it was a humiliating experience, or because fact was intermixed with fiction? I wonder what Hermione would have thought of this memory? (I wonder what Dobby thinks of Snape?)

As we have learned in GOF, while visiting Dumbledores "memories" in the pensieve, the pensieve does, in my opinion, not show "biased memories" but more what was going on with the help of some "walk-in-movie-like-device". In the pensieve-trial Harry also was able to look araound and notice things, even if Dumbledore did look in another direction. He even saw the back of Dumbledore ... something Dumbledore would not have seen himself in that trial.

If you are right in asuming that Snape needed just an excuse to stop giving Harry Occlumency lessons, than the fact that Harry was snooping in his memories wuold have been completely sufficient! THere would have been no need to show Harry THAT memory - any other memory would have been enough.


The bottom line is that I think Snape did not want Harry to see certain memories inside his head and that is why he stopped the Occulmency lessons. Snape is hiding something larger. I also think that Snape was afraid that too much personal contact with Harry would make the DE aware of his involvement in the OOTP (if he is working against both sides he cannot let the other know his true objectives).

Thats what the pensieve was there for in the first place! To protect the memories that Snape not wanted to be seen by Harry! Snape after all isn't an amateur! He knew that during these lessons it could very well happen that Harry got access to his memories - thats why he putted his "most treasured" memories away!

I also think that during the dueling scene (between Draco and Harry in book 2) Snape was testing Harry's abilities. Snape whispered into Draco's ear the spell which materialized the snake. Maybe Snape wanted to see if Harry really had any of Voldemort's powers.

Maybe so - but so what?

I think that Snape loathes Dumbledore just as much as Voldemort. Dumbledore because he is too emotionally soft to lead, and Voldemort for many reasons. First of all Voldemort is a "mudblood"--Snape has made his feelings for "mudbloods" very clear. Voldemort is also an idiot (unlike Snape who is very clever and shrewd). I mean how many times can you be beat by a kid and still look cool? And not last, Voldemort wastes his time running around looking for a useless prophecy (which would have never been fullfilled if he just had ignored it), chasing young children instead of getting on with conquering the world.

I don't think we can judge Snapes feelings for mudbloods from that one and only incident in the pensieve. Never have we seen acting or speaking Snape like for instance Malfoy sen. does. Even when Snape was alone with Harry with no witness around did he make any remark to proof that. He made cruel comments about Harrys father, yes, but never anything about Harry having a mudblood mother or being some halfmuggle or something.

And I highly doubt that ignoring the prophecy would have been a "clever move" of Voldemort ... prophecys do tend to make themself come true...

Dumbledore may trust Snape because Snape lets Dumbledore see his true feelings for Voldemort, while at the same time he conceals his true feelings for Dumbledore.

Who knows .... only time will tell :)

Sabine

[Sineed]

I think JKR is keeping us guessing about Snape. We don't have enough evidence to say conclusively that he is either a double agent, or working for one side.
At this point, we can only tentatively conclude that he is on DD's side, because DD has said so, over and over and over. In future books, we will find out why he ostensibly switched allegiances; I think something drastic happened to him.

[vmonte]

Good responses to the thread so far.

I'm curious, some people think that Snape and Dumbledore are playing some kind of "good cop, bad cop" game with the children. What do you think?

Also,
I understand that although Snape is a real jerk, he is a tough and dedicated teacher. (I'm not saying that he is a fair teacher, just that he takes his job seriously and expects his students to achieve high marks.) Harry is one of those kids that has talent but doesn't really apply himself. (Hermione is always helping Ron and Harry with their lessons.) I know that there is nothing more frustrating for a teacher than to see a kid that has potential but no goals in life. Snape obviously thinks that Harry is a smart mouth punk who is always breaking school rules. (Of course, Snape's hatred of Harry stems partly from jealousy. Harry has natural talent--unlike Snape who had to work hard to get where he's at.)

Also,
If Snape only hates Harry because he is a rule breaker like his father was, why doesn't Snape show the same kind of hatred towards Fred and George? How many hexes do you think Fred and George played while they were in school? And would you say that they are bad people?

I wonder why Snape hates Hermione? She is a dedicated student, she pays attention in class, and achieves high marks. Is it because she is friends with Harry? Does Snape really hate "mudbloods" or is that also part of his act? If he is prejudiced, it probably kills Snape to see talent coming from a person like Hermione (a mudblood).

Why does he torment Neville? Do you really think that he is just toughing him up for the real world? I don't think so.

I think Snape's hatred of Harry boils down to jealousy. Snape has had to work hard to get to where he is, and Harry, who doesn't try at all, has more natural ability and talent. Even Hermione who is a dedicated student realizes (in book one) that there is more to being a great wizard than just cleverness. Snape probably also sees this limitation in himself, so Harry's natural ability probably burns him up!

Also,
I wonder why Snape isn't allowed to teach DADA classes? Why would this class bring out Snape's bad side and not his potions class which could also be used for evil. Is the DADA position really jinxed?, or is it something else?
The only thing I can think of is that Snape must have lost control in the past and hurt some innocent person while doing DADA. (He was after all part of the DE.) Is this the real reason why James Potter picked on Snape in school? I remember that in the begining of OOTP Harry was also picking on Dudley. Was James picking on a bully like Dudley?
Snape is verbally abusive to his students. Perhaps DADA in the hands of someone like Snape could become lethal to a student (or could be lethal to Snape if he makes the students angry--HAHA). Maybe DADA can only be done successfully by those who are emotionally balanced, those who also have love in them, which serves to keep DADA in check.

I do not see much love in Snape's heart.

I'm not saying that any of the characters are perfect, they all have faults! Harry has a disregard for rules and shares many of his father's faults, but he is also kind and good hearted like his mother.

Maybe the pensieve memory was not Snape's memory at all, but Dumbledore's. Snape did borrow the pensieve from DD; maybe DD knew that Harry would try to see Snape's memories and planted this particular memory to show Harry a different perspective on Snape.

Snape is one of my favorite wizards so I'm not trashing him. He is a complex and interesting character and I cannot wait to see how he will turn out.

[Grimoire]

You also have to keep in mind that Snape once did something great, namely,
he had the courage (for whatever reason) to betray Voldemort to Dumbledore and was probably instrumental in bringing down the Death Eaters ... and he's never been able to tell anybody what he did. He has that Slytherin ambition and yet he hasn't been able to really achieve the kind of recognition that he thinks he deserves. Remember in PoA when everyone thought he had captured the "dangerous escaped murderer" Sirius Black? Fudge was rambling on and on about all the rewards and recognition that Snape was going to receive and it was obvious that Snape thought it would be wonderful.

On the one hand you have Harry Potter, the son of Snape's old school nemesis, who is world famous for destroying Voldemort, even though he was just a baby at the time and hadn't done anything except survive. On the other, you have Severus Snape who actually did do something of consequence, by making a choice and acting on it, who gets no credit what so ever.

Don't get me wrong. Snape is a mean and petty tyrant who bullies all the non Slytherin students, not just that "nasty little boy", carrying a grudge against the son for the (perceived) sins of the father. At the same time, his actions during the last reign of Voldemort show him to be a man of great courage (as well as of poor personal hygiene :)) ... whatever it was exactly that he did to earn Dumbledore's trust, I doubt Dumbledore would have entrusted him with the care and education of children if he weren't somehow worthy of that trust. And Dumbledore is no one's fool.

[vmonte]

Should Snape be trusted?
I agree that Harry ignores instructions and often relies on instinct intstead of logic in times of trouble. Harry is neither logical, clever, nor a strategist. He gets out of tight spots because he has natural talent, thinks quickly on his feet, and has loyal friends who have extra abilities in what he lacks. Hermione and Ron complete "the dream team."
But Harry really needs to wake up and start thinking critically on his own. He should never have taken what he saw (regarding Sirius' safety) at face value. He was repeatedly warned that Voldemort would take advantage of him now that he had open access to Harry's thoughts. If we, the readers are to take Snape's, Dumbledore's, Lupin's, Sirius', warnings in mind--we too should not take what we see at face value. Things may not be what they appear!

1. I wonder why Snape removed his thoughts in front of Harry?
2. If the pensieve belonged to Dumbledore were some of his memories also in the pensieve?
3. Have other people at the school placed their memories in this pensieve?
4. How do we know that these memories are Snapes? Is it just because Harry repeated several times that they were. (Remember Harry always takes things at face value.)
5. Can pensieve memories be altered in order to deceive?
6. Is there something else in the memory, besides the obvious, that Snape would fear that Harry might have seen?
7. If Snape borrowed the pensieve from Dumbledore did Dumbledore warn Snape that Harry might take a peek, or was Snape (or Dumbledore) counting on Harry peeking?
8. Would there be a reason that Snape would want to end occulmency lessons?

Just some thoughts.

[Raharu]

I wouldn't want my enemy/person I dont like to see my embarrasing moments o.o; And i think Snape just overreacted and stopped the lessons because he was pissed and wouldnt want harry to confront him or ask him about the memories later during a lesson. Was the pensive empty when he borrowed it? dont wanna get memories mixed up in that stew of thoughts. *shrug*

[Sineed]

Good responses to the thread so far.

I'm curious, some people think that Snape and Dumbledore are playing some kind of "good cop, bad cop" game with the children. What do you think?

Yes... I have thought that at least some of Snape's bile was feigned. Remember that the children of Death Eaters are in his classes, and they will report back to their parents if Professor Snape is not showing the correct attitude. Note that he singles out for special attention the 2 boys possibly mentioned in the prophesy: Harry, and Neville. Also, I have thought that Snape does DD's dirty work for him, leaving DD free to be noble.

But I don't think he hates Hermione; he's no meaner to her than he is to many of the kids.

And I think he doesn't teach DADA because he's too close for comfort to the Dark Arts. But you're right to think that maybe something specific happened that has gotten him forever banished from this post, because that's JKR's style.

Some people have a theory that Snape will teach DADA in one of the subsequent books because that will allow Harry to take the Potions he will require to become an Auror. The assumption behind this theory is that Harry will not get an Outstanding in his Potions OWL, and Snape "absolutely refuses" to take students into his NEWT classes who have not achieved an Outstanding. A friendly reminder to those who subscribe to this theory: we don't know his marks yet!! Recall that Umbridge said, "Well, the class seems advanced for their age..." Snape is an excellent Potions teacher, and the OWLS are not marked by him. JKR has provided us with clues that Harry will indeed achieve an Outstanding in his potions OWL, and return in his 6th year to study Potions under the vicious scrutiny of everybody's favourite Potions master.

[Zachary1993]

Snape is probably on the good side after he learned that deatheaters were bad and what he was doing was wrong.

[Sineed]

Snape is probably on the good side after he learned that deatheaters were bad and what he was doing was wrong.

Hello fellow Canadian.

I would like to think you're right, but JKR's style suggests to me that something drastic happened to Snape that made him switch sides rather than just some realization on his part.

Happy New Year/ Bonne Annee

[vmonte]

Whether you think Snape is a vampire or not you have to admit that Rowling is always dropping vampire references in the books. By the way, vampires are the single most talked about magical creature in the entire book series--although we have yet to actually encounter one.

Maybe Snape is not a Vampire but an Animagus--perhaps he can change into a bat! Snape's pensieve dream would be quite funny if it had a different meaning than what we are lead to believe. Maybe James Potter's gang real purpose was to "out" Snape in front of the school. Didn't the book state somewhere that Snape was always following the gang around trying to find reasons to get them expelled? What if Snape found out that they were all unregistered Animagi...?
Maybe they were sending Snape a message: "We know that you too are also an unregistered Animagus!" So, they hang him upside down, like a "bat," in front of the school. Snape knows the real meaning of their attack while everyone else understands it as we do. Snape dwells in dark cold places right? Bats like cold caves...

I tend to go to far with these theories...
Later,
vmonte

[callistto]

I think Snape removed those memories when he saw
Harry due to the fact that Harry looks just like James.
So when he sees Harry he is reminded of James and
all those old memories resurface.

He tells Harry that occulmency requires controlling
ones emotions and such. Putting those memories in the
pensieve keeps it and the emotional baggage it must bring
out of the lesson.

Also Snape only tries to expel Harry when he has an out.
Like in COS, he brings up the "out" suggesting that perhaps
Harry was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Only
then when he had an out did he suggest expullsion. Same
with the car, he tries to expel him knowing full well only the
Head of Griff. house can. With the Shrieking shack he could
have told how he was attacked by the trio if he truly
wanted to have Harry expelled. Instead he makes up
an excuse for them.

Its all about keeping his cover, LV is a master Ill...(lie detector),
he can only fool LV by making it real. Maybe thats why
he keeps his grudge with the Potters, not out of spite
but to use as a protection to keep his cover from being blown.
Thats probably why he is so mean and biased in class, he manages
to make sure HRH gets the info they need and providing more
'insulation' from Voldie. Remember Voldie knows when you're
lying, so to keep him from knowing you 'dont' lie. Get it?

[story]

I believe snape has a tail or something hidden under that cloak of his.

[Mirtilla]

Honestly I think that Snape is really on the good side. Keep in mind that I don't like Snape but I'm quite sure he is one the goos side.
let's see in PS/SS he demonstrate that he's loyal to Dumbledore, in fact he tryed to stop Quirrel, if he was really on the bad said he could have easily helped Quirrel since he had Dumbledore's trust. Even in GoF he accempt to do what Dumbledore told him. Not to mention Ootp: thanks Snape the members of the Order were learned that Harry and his friend were really in danger. So to me Snape is on the good side however I still dislike him.

1. I wonder why Snape removed his thoughts in front of Harry?

I think that he didn't find very funny to show Harry how James treated him at school, plus I don't think he want to show his pants to Harry.

2. If the pensieve belonged to Dumbledore were some of his memories also in the pensieve?

Maybe Snape used DUmbledore's pensieve only during Harry's occlumency lessons, and after the lesson he re-put his memories in his mind

I'm curious, some people think that Snape and Dumbledore are playing some kind of "good cop, bad cop" game with the children. What do you think?

I think that Snape really dislike only Harry and he find "funny" punish his friends(Ron/Hermione/Neville), plus he is a slytherin and hates Gruffindor, sad but it's true. However he also helps Harry in CoS when he said that "perhaps Harry was just at the wrong place at the wrong time"
Dumbledore, I really like Dumbledore is one of my favourite character(after Harry and Hermione) he is a very good and powerful person, he belives in the second chances, that's what makes him great.

I wonder why Snape isn't allowed to teach DADA classes? Why would this class bring out Snape's bad side and not his potions class which could also be used for evil. Is the DADA position really jinxed?, or is it something else?
The only thing I can think of is that Snape must have lost control in the past and hurt some innocent person while doing DADA. (He was after all part of the DE.)

vmont, I think that there are a lot of things that we don't know about Snape, and one of these things is why he isn't allowed to teach DADA. this topic is really open at every speculations. Perhaps is like you said or perhaps there isn't only one reason.

bye

Mirtilla

[Discordia]

I agree with Mirtilla. I really think he's on the good side. Ever since he showed fudge the tatoo on his arm I knew. He risked alot by telling Fudge all that and no matter what he's always tried to keep Harry alive despite it all.


There was a quote that Rowling said from Albert Hall that the reason that Snape isn the DADA teacher was bc Dumbledroe feared it would bring out the worst in him.

[Juniper]

Yes I too think Snape is on the good side as I the showing of the dark mark upon his arm could be the reason that Voldemort knows he has left the DE for good. This also shows added loyalty to the order by revealing his true identity before them. What I would like to know is why Voldemort uses the word 'fear'. What has Voldemort to fear about Snape, is it loss of those around him.

[Mirtilla]

I agree with Mirtilla. I really think he's on the good side. Ever since he showed fudge the tatoo on his arm I knew. He risked alot by telling Fudge all that and no matter what he's always tried to keep Harry alive despite it all.


There was a quote that Rowling said from Albert Hall that the reason that Snape isn the DADA teacher was bc Dumbledroe feared it would bring out the worst in him.

I'm glad to see that sometimes we agree Discordia!
I never thought about the DE's scar, it's another istance that show that Snape is relly on the good side. That's no imply that he's a saint, quite the contrary.

I didn't know that quote but it's intersting.; I mean what is the "worst" in him? and why theaching dada would bring the worst of Snape? it's something to think about.


Bye

Mirtilla ;)

[Sineed]

From JKR's comments, I'm deducing that Dumbledore's trust of Snape is contingent upon his never teaching DADA.

[Discordia]

Lol! Mirtilla, it's probably one of the few things we do agree about!


I saw that quote Rowling made it was when she was at albert Hall. IF Snape ever did get the job my take is that it would make Harry's life a living hell. He's probably the best and the worst person possible to teach them. Good bc he knows soo much but bad bc it would probably be hard for the students especialy Harry and Neville to actually learn anything. He tried to teach Harry occulmency and that ended in disaster. Harry and Snape don't trust eachother. Besides if he did become the DADA teacher I'm sure there would always be that risk of Snape trying to curse Harry during the class or use him for demonstration and than of course Harry would retaliate and there'd be chaos. No, If Snape taught that class it would do more harm than good. Just bc he wants the job doesn't mean he'll get it.

[NepSy]

I know Dumbledore can make a mistake (Quirrell, fake Mad-Eye Moody) but I trust him about Snape. If he says Snape he is on the good side I believe Snape is on the good side.

[Mirtilla]

Discordia

Lol! Mirtilla, it's probably one of the few things we do agree about!

Well, at least on something we agree, good to know ;)

I saw that quote Rowling made it was when she was at albert Hall. IF Snape ever did get the job my take is that it would make Harry's life a living hell. He's probably the best and the worst person possible to teach them. Good bc he knows soo much but bad bc it would probably be hard for the students especialy Harry and Neville to actually learn anything. He tried to teach Harry occulmency and that ended in disaster.

Yes, in fact Harry has some problem with potions only because of Snape, we know that when Snape is not around Harry could do a good potion, that's why I think that Harry could have bring a good mark in his potion's owl, but that's for another thread.

Harry and Snape don't trust eachother.
yes and no.
At the end of ootp Harry trust Snape enough to tell him what happen to Sirius, and I think that the problem between Harry and Snape(and also between Snape and Sirius) is the lack of trust and respect for each other, Snape couldn't consider Harry as just Harry because Harry is James' son and Harry couldn't see Snape in a more rational light because of what Snape thought about him and his father(not to mention how many unfair punishment Snape gave to Gryffindor's boys)


Besides if he did become the DADA teacher I'm sure there would always be that risk of Snape trying to curse Harry during the class or use him for demonstration and than of course Harry would retaliate and there'd be chaos.

I think that Harry will be Snape's favourite target, he alredy was his favourite target during potion's class.
I think that there also another reason why Dumbledore won't given Snape the DADA class, If I remember correctly Snape worked at Hogwarts for 16 years and during these years he never had the dada class. I'm just wondering why.

Bye!

Mirtilla

[Ford Anglia]

...Its all about keeping his cover, LV is a master Ill...(lie detector),
he can only fool LV by making it real. Maybe thats why he keeps his grudge with the Potters, not out of spite but to use as a protection to keep his cover from being blown. Thats probably why he is so mean and biased in class, he manages to make sure HRH gets the info they need and providing more 'insulation' from Voldie. Remember Voldie knows when you're lying, so to keep him from knowing you 'dont' lie. Get it?

Excellent! I've been thinking along those lines for a while now. Snape's cover as a member of the Death Eaters is dependent on he and Harry hating each other. Voldy may at any time gain access to some of Harry's thoughts, and if Harry primarily viewed Snape as an Order member he could have noticed. What Snape thinks of Harry may be less important, but we don't know yet how skilled Snape truly is. Can he mislead the dark lord about something so important without some help? Covering up his duty to protect Harry with his hatred for James would make things easier.
As for which side he's on, well, we know he isn't on Voldemort's side anymore. If Snape hadn't alerted the order to Harry's vision of the DoM then the DEs would have delivered the prophecy, and Harry, to their boss. That would have been the end of it.

[vmonte]

It would be funny if Quirrell put garlic in his turbin to fight off Voldemort's possesion. Maybe the real Vampire is Voldemort (as others have mentioned). And maybe Quirrell wasn't a willing participant in his possesion?
For example:
Quirrell's confrontation with Harry at the end of book 1 is very peculiar. Harry tells Quirrell that he had heard him crying in a classroom(?) and Quirrell responds that he sometimes has trouble following his master's orders (not exact wording). I wonder if Quirrell was forced into submission by Voldemort?
Wasn't Voldemort very weak when he initially took over Quirrell's body? Perhaps spells (or potions) where needed (early on) to keep Quirrell submissive while Voldy's possesion took hold. The classroom scene may have been one of the times that Quirrell attempted to break through Voldy's possesion? Maybe Quirrell was doing the counter curse and Snape was actually cursing Harry during the Quidditch game? Regardless, it's obvious that by the end of book 1, Quirrell is taken over completely by Voldemort (except for the moment Quirrell shows fear in his face). I wonder what side Snape is talking about when has asks Quirrell were his loyalties lie?

I realize that at the end of book 1 Quirrell sets the record straight about Snape, telling Harry that Snape is on DD's side? Why would Voldemort do this? Why exonerate Snape if Snape is your enemy?
It's also interesting because Tom Riddle tells Harry (in book 2) that Ginny was forced into submission. Riddle also clears Ginny of any guilt. Interesting...

[GryffindorGr]

I think he's a good guy with just mean tendancies.
I mean, James was a mean bully but he wasn't exactly "good" or evil, now was he?

IN terms of Snape, well...Voldemort said in Book 4: ''And here we have six missing Death Eaters - three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return - he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever - he will be killed of course.'' Snape used to be a death eater.
If Voldemort picks on Snape to kill then he wouldn't be exactly "bad" would he?
I'm confusing myself now.

[Mirtilla]

Originally posted by vmont
I wonder what side Snape is talking about when has asks Quirrell were his loyalties lie?

I believe that Snape is (and was) on Dumbledore's side, in PS/SS it was Snape that trys to stop Quirell because he guessed that Quirrel had something wrong.
In more then one occasion Sanpe demonstrate is loyalty to Dumbledore even in ootp so in my opinion Snape is really on the good side.

I realize that at the end of book 1 Quirrell sets the record straight about Snape, telling Harry that Snape is on DD's side? Why would Voldemort do this? Why exonerate Snape if Snape is your enemy?

I think that Voldemort knew that Snape had betrayed him.
GryffindorGr (Hi!) posted the quote from GoF

''And here we have six missing Death Eaters - three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return - he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever - he will be killed of course.''

I think that the "one, who I believe has left me forever" is Snape, anyway there's another thread to debate this topic:
The Three Missing Death Eaters (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22246)


Furthermore keep in mind that Snape become Dumbledore's spy before Voldemort's fall, we don't know why Snape decided to become a spy for Dumbledore and I think that this is the most interesting thing about Snape's life.

[DrummerboyDT]

Snape is a good guy, he just has issues.

[mina]

I believe he is truly a "good guy", but he tends to let his emotions and past grudges get in the way of his better judgement. And Snape doesn't just have issues...he has subscriptions.

[Doggy]

I believe he is truly a "good guy", but he tends to let his emotions and past grudges get in the way of his better judgement.
:tu: Very true.
Snape obviously trusts Dumbledore, and don't forget, we haven't seen him alone with him. Harry's always been there, and Harry's presense doesn't bring out the best in Snape, just as mina said Snape harbours past wrongs. He might be more friendly and trusting alone with Dumbledore.

Besides, Snape is a Slytherin. Slytherins have two main qualities that are specific for that house - ambition and cunning. Ambition aside, Snape is cunning and sharp, sometimes too much so for his own good.

[vmonte]

Even though this post is about how DD might be a strategist, the moderator closed my post and told me to add this message here. So here it is...

I put this post up because it occured to me that Dumbledore often seems to know more than he should at times. Is he privy to information others are not? Is he a Seer, or a time traveler? Or is he a strategist?

He also allows the students to do/and or he manipulates the children to do many dangerous things. I almost feel as though he is some kind of military leader who is training his troops for war!

Why would DD let a sadistic person like Snape teach?
There are many fans who believe that Snape is on the good side, but what if he isn't? Or, what if Snape is at present on the good side, but DD knows (somehow) that he will go back to Voldemort eventually.

If DD thinks like a strategist he may have Snape at the school for a very different reason than just teaching potions.

There is a book a book called "The Art of War," a Chinese military book that is over 2500 years old. (This is the Oldest Military Treatise in the World. Julius Caesar and Napolean Bonaparte read this book; American generals studied it during WWII, and many other military strategists throughout history.)

Well anyway, this book has a very famous quote which says: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer" (not sure of exact quote).

If DD is a strategist, then perhaps he has Snape at the school for a different reason altogether. Perhaps it's so that he can keep an eye on Snape.

DD may also want Snape at the school so that the children can learn about him, and or people like him. Maybe DD is teaching the kids how to understand the enemy -- because the more the kids are around Snape the more they are going to learn his weaknesses (just like we are learning Voldy's weaknesses). Perhaps DD is teaching the kids how to fight the DE's -- how to use the DEs weaknesses against them.

I wonder if Ron, who is also strategist (example the chess game in COS), will figure out something about Snape?

It could very well turn out that Snape is on the good side; but I think that his personality and prejudices are similar to Voldy and the DEs.

I'm starting to think that Occulmency lessons were not so much to teach Harry how to close his mind, but how to read Snape's mind. I wonder if DD meant Harry to see what was in the penseive as well.

vmonte

[DsX Phoenix]

I'm starting to think that Occulmency lessons were not so much to teach Harry how to close his mind, but how to read Snape's mind. I wonder if DD meant Harry to see what was in the penseive as well.

But, what was in the penseive was not anything incriminating against Snape. In fact, it really gave Snape some justification for his treatment of Harry.

Truthfully, have we really seen Snape do anything "evil"? No. He acts like a jerk to Harry, but we find out why in OotP.

I for one trust Dumbledore. He would not knowingly allow a DE to work at Hogwarts, unless he knew the DE was a "reformed" DE.

[koli]

I think Snape is on the good guys side. Voldemort said he had "one faithful servent at hogwarts" meaning Crouch. Not Snape. Also in book one Snape was asking Quirrel about his loyalties, meaning toward Dumbledore... Voldemort was on the back of his head at the time, Voldemort knows Snape's not on his side, i dont understand how he can be a "spy" for the order.

[vmonte]

I wonder if Snape was really asking Quirrel whether he was being loyal to DD? What if he meant loyal to Voldy? What if Quirrel wasn't a willing participant in Voldy's parasitic possesion of his body. What if Voldemort needed Snape to drug Quirrel into submission until he was strong enough to take over complete bodily control.

[Fleur du mal]

yeah, I thought about that too, but it is unlikely. Both villains, Quirrel and Barty jr had their jamesbondlike final monologue, revealing the mystery. Both were convinced that Harry would not survive to tell, so they had no reason to lie to him. But both exculpiated Snape fully.

As for Dumbledore being a strategic thinker - he surely is. But when the ex-Death Eater came to visit Hogwarts, he nevertheless wanted an auror to watch out. If he thought Snape to be on the other side, he'd make sure that there'd be AT LEAST a competent DADA teacher, right?

[vmonte]

I know this is pretty grim but I was just curious as to whether it
would be possible to lift and deposit memories into a penseive from
someone who just died, or was dying (like Quirrel).

I've been wondering if Snape was really asking Quirrel whether he was
being loyal to DD? What if he meant loyal to Voldy? What if Quirrel
wasn't a willing participant in Voldy's parasitic possesion of his
body. What if Voldemort needed Snape to drug Quirrel into submission
until he was strong enough to take over complete bodily control.

If memories can be lifted when someone is newly dead, or dying, then
it would make sense that Quirrel would have to first cover up for
Snape by explaining to Harry that he was on the good side. (Is this
part of the reason why DD trusts Snape because he saw this vision?)

Of course this would only make sense if Voldy was planning on leaving
Quirrel's body once he got the stone.

Cedric is a different case because I don't think that Voldy and the
DEs could have guessed that Harry was going to take the body back to
school.

vmonte

[Epiphany]

IMO, Snape is definetly on the good side.

Dumbledore trusts him and I trust that Dumbledore can't be fooled by someone like Snape, who actually never tries to hide his feelings.

Snape is not a nice man - but he is a good one.

The reason he is bad with Harry is because of James, nothing else. Or maybe, like someone else said - He wants Harry to grow stronger. He won't accept any failure from Harry.

I wonder how he will be in the next book - I believe he will have changed...but how, I don't know yet.

[Dawn_Potter]

I think, we shouldn't fool ourselves by believing, that Snape is deep inside a really good guy, but he's deffinitely on Dumbledores side...

[Epiphany]

I think, we shouldn't fool ourselves by believing, that Snape is deep inside a really good guy, but he's deffinitely on Dumbledores side...

I must agree with you there.

I did say he was good - doesn't mean he hasn't some bad habits or trouble with his temper or can't make bad decisions.

That's why Dumbledore doesn't want to give him the DADA teacher job. He knows that Snape can be weak at times and choose the easy way.

[Nymphadoratonks]

to Voldemort eventually.

There is a book a book called "The Art of War," a Chinese military book that is over 2500 years old. (This is the Oldest Military Treatise in the World. Julius Caesar and Napolean Bonaparte read this book; American generals studied it during WWII, and many other military strategists throughout history.)

Well anyway, this book has a very famous quote which says: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer" (not sure of exact quote).

vmonte

The very same quote has been going through my head many times lately - but unfortunately someone got there before me!!

To me this is a real possibility and will explain why Dumbledore would rather have Umbridge teach DADA than Snape. Still seems strange that Dumbledore believes 'Snape's story' and yet doesn't trust him enough to teach Dark Arts.

I reckon on Snape being totally out for himself and therefore wants both Voldemort and Dumbledore to think he's on their side. I also think that Voldemort believes that this is true - it explains why Snape still shows Malfoy favouritism and although he's spying on DEs he's not been killed yet. IMO Snape is not the DE who Voldemort thinks has 'left forever'.
But whether Dumbledore believes this to be true or not is another question........ is he just willing to go along with Snape's story because of the information it can give him?

[Amw243]

I think that Snape once was on the dark-side at one time and leting him be the dark arts professor may re-kindle his feelings towards the dark side.

[vmonte]

Many people have commented that Snape is tough on the children
because he is preparing them for what is to come. But from everything
I've read I think that it's DD who is preparing the children.

In GOF, page 230, US version:

"But--but you said it's illegal, Professor," said Hermione
uncertainly as Moody cleared away the desks with a sweep of his wand,
leaving a large space in the middle of the room. "You said--to use it
(the Imperius Curse) against another human was--"
"Dumbledore wants you taught what it feels like," said Moody, his
magical eye swiveling onto Hermione and fixing her with an eerie,
unblinking stare." If you'd rather learn the hard way--when someone's
putting it on you so they can control you completely--fine by me."
(By the way, Harry is the only person in the class that attempts to
fight the curse, and is able to throw off the curse entirely on the
fourth try.)

This is a pretty good trick to know if someone was trying to control
your mind -- or perhaps read it?!

Harry threw off the imperious curse the same way he stopped Snape from reading his mind. It's also how Harry read Snape's memories! Did DD lend Snape the penseive knowing full well that Harry would sneak a peak?

Many people have ascertained that Snape and DD are working together.
But were they working together during POA? It seems to me that Snape
was completely out of the loop during POA.

vmonte

[Sineed]

The idea that DD loaned Snape the pensieve knowing full well that Harry might sneak a peak is interesting, considering that DD caught Harry looking into his own thoughts in GoF. But I don't think so because DD had no control over what memories Snape put into the pensieve, so he wouldn't know if Harry would see the right memories that would aid his, DD's, "master plan."

Snape did seem out of the loop in PoA. But considering how emotionally involved Snape was, it was easier for DD to resolve everything without him, and then explain everything later, after he calmed down. Part of Snape's anger at the end might have been realizing that he had been left out.

[Fleur du mal]

first of all - let's say, Snape is a double spy, and Voldemort believes him to be on his side. How should the poor man teach DADA then, being faithful to Dumbledore and still keeping his cover for Voldy? He needed to prepare the kids excellently, on the other hand, that would draw very much attention to him from his Death Eater fellows who'd wonder why their mate is educating their own enemies so sufficiently.

And Dumbledore did not choose Umbridge over Snape; the position was vacant at August, 30th (we know it from the law that Fudge created to get a foot into Hogwarts), and for the reasons typed above, I'm sure Dumbledore did not wish to bring Snape into an awkward situation, but thought, he'd might find a new teacher during the year. The ministry came like a total surprise, I think otherwise, he'd have done it himself, rather than let this woman into his school.

And about Dumbledore's master plan, to let Moody teach curses - well, this Moody was NOT his old friend; at more than one point, we get to know later that Moody/Crouch made something up for cover (telling Snape that Dumbledore wanted him to search his study - not even Snape believed it in that moment), and I'm positively sure that Dumbledore would not let somebody use an Unforgivable curse in one of his classrooms, no matter how useful this could prove! They are UNFORGIVABLE; if you perform them for training (which is a good idea) you wouldn't want this to happen in public, do you? Remember; Moody was already in great troubles when Arthur rushed to his help for some gambolling garbage tons; because of his records. How deep in **** would he have got for using curses against the students?! Like Snape imposed to give Harry extra lessons in Potions, Moody could have pretended to teach Harry to get him away from his mates.
Therefore, I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore knew little about what was going on in his classrooms.

[vmonte]

Fleur du mal wrote:

I'm positively sure that Dumbledore would not let somebody use an Unforgivable curse in one of his classrooms, no matter how useful this could prove! They are UNFORGIVABLE; if you perform them for training (which is a good idea) you wouldn't want this to happen in public, do you? Remember; Moody was already in great troubles when Arthur rushed to his help for some gambolling garbage tons; because of his records. How deep in **** would he have got for using curses against the students?! Like Snape imposed to give Harry extra lessons in Potions, Moody could have pretended to teach Harry to get him away from his mates.
Therefore, I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore knew little about what was going on in his classrooms.

vmonte responds:
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. We already know from conversations between Harry and DD that Harry is being watched more closely than he could ever know. We know that DD knew what Ron and Harry saw in the mirror of Erised during CoS, even though he was never there. There was also the time that Harry began packing his bags (was it in the Dursley house?) during OOTP -- immediately an owl appears telling Harry he must not leave the house.
We also know that DD often uses the portraits as spys. He probably also uses the statues, ghosts, and knights in armor the same way.

If Moody was using an unforgivable curse in the school I'm pretty sure that DD knew what was going on. I'm also sure that there must be some kind of alarm system that tells the headmaster when curses are used in school. I know that Moody was not the real Moody when he was teaching at Hogwarts, but don't you think that he ended up teaching the children something that was to their benefit? Didn't Harry use the same method learned in class to later throw Snape out of his mind (he was also able to read Snape's mind because of this). It seems to me that fake Moody would not have gone out of his way to teach the children how to defend themselves unless it was a direct order from DD.

[Nephel]

If Moody was using an unforgivable curse in the school I'm pretty sure that DD knew what was going on. I'm also sure that there must be some kind of alarm system that tells the headmaster when curses are used in school. I know that Moody was not the real Moody when he was teaching at Hogwarts, but don't you think that he ended up teaching the children something that was to their benefit? Didn't Harry use the same method learned in class to later throw Snape out of his mind (he was also able to read Snape's mind because of this). It seems to me that fake Moody would not have gone out of his way to teach the children how to defend themselves unless it was a direct order from DD.

Yeah, someone working for Lord Voldemort would not intentionally teach the students how to defend themselves from the Unforgivable Curses, it must have been a direct order from Dumbledore.

[FredRocksMySocks]

If Voldemort picks on Snape to kill then he wouldn't be exactly "bad" would he?
Ok, so we should now forget all of the times that Snape has had to rescue Harry and keep him safe? Because none of those will happen in the future, right? Harry will never need anybody else's help but DD's, right? But, isn't it funny that Snape helped Harry more in OOTP then ever before.... So, in times of great need for Harry, Snape actually comes to the rescue..... Hmmm. Now! What would happen if Voldie killed Snape, then? Assuming, of course, that Harry yet again finds himself in a spot of trouble in which he cannot escape with only the help of his closest pals. Well, that makes one less person who is willing to help Harry. Yes, there has always been DD. But, again, another coincidence is that, excepting OOTP's final battle scene between Voldie and DD, Dd has been absent from most of the monumental battles/escapes in which Harry participated. The graveyard--not there. The CoS--not there. And, please, don't get me wrong. I am not blaming DD, I am not saying that he is unreliable, I am not saying that he didn't help Harry at all in those troubled times. All I am saying is that Harry needs more people to depend on than just DD and his friends. And any help the kid can get in his escapades is greatly appreciated. So, would it be bad if Snape was killed. Yup.
Another point I feel the need to send out there is that if Snape really is working for the OOTP, then losing one of thier spies on the inside could be a devestating blow. And I assume that he is a "good spy" because DD trusts him and we all trust DD. Of course, this could be wrong, but at the current time, this is the information we have been given and, therefore, this is the most solid evidence in which I have to base my opinions. So, losing Snape would result in the loss of a useful spy, and the information which has been collected by him (and has been utilized by DD many times in OOTP) and will be collected in the future would be lost. Also, seeing that the information was, in fact, sound proves as further evidence that Snape isn't passing false information, which Voldie would be sure to order Snape to do, as the prophecy was seen as one of the last of Voldie's desperate attempts to murder Harry--why would he willingly give that chance up, when he has worked so hard for it?

Yeah..so, bad. Very, very bad.

[Pegasus]

I've often wondered about this myself. What were the fake Moody's true intentions regarding the Unforgivable Curses? As a Death Eater who hasn't been able to do anything in years, as long as he's going to pose as a teacher, he might as well do something he enjoys. Torturing/killing spiders and trying the Imperius Curse out on students does that for him. On the other hand, this knowledge ends up helping Harry in the graveyard, and you'd think Dumbledore would know something about what goes on in the classrooms. Did Dumbledore know about it? Did he know about Umbridge's detention techniques in OotP? Or does he give teachers a certain amount of privacy out of respect? Hmmm....

[wavy]

The idea that DD loaned Snape the pensieve knowing full well that Harry might sneak a peak is interesting, considering that DD caught Harry looking into his own thoughts in GoF. But I don't think so because DD had no control over what memories Snape put into the pensieve, so he wouldn't know if Harry would see the right memories that would aid his, DD's, "master plan."

I wondered something similar - if maybe DD set Harry and Snape up together to see if they could get past some of their animosity in a private setting. He is big on the importance of the members of the order trusting each other and working together, so this would have been a good way to give Harry and Snape a little push in that direction. But, as he said, "some wounds run too deep." I definitely think DD had some alterior motives. He told Harry the reason he had Snape teach Harry occlumency is because he didn't want Voldie to get an inkling that DD was more than "just a headmaster." But, if Snape is spying, wouldn't the same problem apply to him teaching it - it might give away what Snape's doing for the order and the fact that he is spying? Methinks DD was not being particularly honest . . .

[Pazarius]

My Theory concerning Severus Snape...

1) Snape becomes a death eater.

Which we already know to be fact. The question is why? I don't think Snape ever truly shared the more extreme philosophies of Voldemort and his death eaters (Racism against Muggle-borns, torturing muggles for fun, killing all who oppose them etc). Snape's love of the dark arts, hatred of James, (his parents?) may have led to him becoming a death eater, but he never really belonged with them, and it was only a matter of time before he realised that.

2) Snape decides he wants to leave the death eaters.

Because Voldemort is a bit 'too evil' for him? No, that may have made him leave and run away, but Snape doesn't run. I think in order to become a spy for Dumbledore, at great personal risk, Snape has to also find something to fight for. I think Snape realises that he loves the wizarding world itself, and that Voldemort will inevitably destroy it to rule it. Remember how angry Snape is when Ron, Harry risk exposing it with the flying car? Usually Snape is happy when he has an excuse to punish Harry.

3) Snape convinces Voldemort that he can infiltrate the OotP and spy on Dumbledore for him.

Of course, Snape is no fool. He knows that if he leaves the death eaters he will be killed. He is not confident that Dumbledore could/would protect him if he asked. Snape is an expert at occlumency/legilimency, the perfect spy.
He knows he could deceive Voldemort, and Voldemort thinks he could deceive Dumbledore into believing he had switched sides. Dumbledore is after all the only wizard Voldemort ever feared; the Dark Lord would jump at the chance to place an agent close to him.

4) Snape goes to Dumbledore and tells him everything (yes, everything).

The plan is perfect. Snape can report Voldemort's movements to Dumbledore, and report misinformation back. And as he is supposed to be spying on Dumbledore, most of his actions won't seem suspicious. Even Dumbledore declaring at the trial that Snape switched sides won't have blown his cover, IF he is a good enough double-agent.

5) Voldemort is defeated (temporarily) the night he murders Harry's parents.

Dumbledore knows Voldemort will return, so Snape keeps up the pretence; staying close to Dumbledore and secretly staying close to former death eaters (or so they think).

6) Voldemort returns...

Snape turns up late to the Riddle house (As you can't apparate out of Hogwarts he couldn't have got there on time anyway) and tells Voldemort he is still his servant, he is so devoted he has stayed 'undercover' for 14 years. Lucius Malfoy for one will confirm that he believes Snape is still on their side.

Ok there are still some flaws I haven't worked out, but I won't post them here, I don't want to deprive others of the joy of pointing them out. :p

[GryffindorGr]

My Theory concerning Severus Snape...

1) Snape becomes a death eater.

2) Snape decides he wants to leave the death eaters.

3) Snape convinces Voldemort that he can infiltrate the OotP and spy on Dumbledore for him.

4) Snape goes to Dumbledore and tells him everything (yes, everything).

5) Voldemort is defeated (temporarily) the night he murders Harry's parents.

6) Voldemort returns...

Ok there are still some flaws I haven't worked out, but I won't post them here, I don't want to deprive others of the joy of pointing them out. :p

Not bad. :)

I can't believe that in January I thought he was a good guy and then confused again, he can be a bad guy! I swear, JKR really did Snape's character too well! to the point that it's so aggravating! LOL! :D

When I read into the characterization between DD and Snape, their interaction, I swear I can tell that DD gives him "warnings", or that look that "you're treading on thin ice" kind of reaction, and then in another moment, it's Hermione saying, "We should trust him because DD does!"
but how much does Hermione know? Really really know? Even McGonagall? As much as McGonagall is close to DD, I think there's still some secrets that DD keeps even to Minerva.

Although JKR did somewhat admit there's a redemptive pattern to Snape. Is there? I wonder.....does a toadstool really really change their spots? How much hatred is underneath Snape and is it worth it for him to get revenge? And if so, what revenge would he take it out on? And why? Ohhhh, so many unanswered questions. JKR doesn't want to give away the boggart or patronus for Snape because it would show so much! Is it DD?
Because for the life of me, I can't figure out who would be the person that he'd mostly fear and what significance it could impact on the storyline.
Are DD and Snape the best at Occlumency? Hmmm. Interesting that DD suggested he should have been the one to teach Harry....(must re-read ending of OotP) yet, it is Snape that "opens" up Harry's mind. This is again, a very vampiric kind of suggestion as well.

[Fleur du mal]

I've often wondered about this myself. What were the fake Moody's true intentions regarding the Unforgivable Curses? As a Death Eater who hasn't been able to do anything in years, as long as he's going to pose as a teacher, he might as well do something he enjoys. Torturing/killing spiders and trying the Imperius Curse out on students does that for him. On the other hand, this knowledge ends up helping Harry in the graveyard, and you'd think Dumbledore would know something about what goes on in the classrooms. ....

We shouldn't forget, that the guy who imposes to be Moody has just spent twelve or thirteen years banned by the Imperius Curse; I always understood it as his own private battle against that curse.
He hasn't taught Harry what to do against the Cruciatus; there isn't anything you could learn about Avada Kedavra to survive; so basically all he is done is showing Harry how to throw off the Imperius. From his point of view, this was no problem; I don't think he had in mind that his master might later try it on Harry for the fun of it, and he was certainly sure that Harry would never become old enough to use this training for something else, like Occlumency.

Moody hated his father, who submissed him, more than anything else. Apart from that, he was a bit mad (we see it at the end, the way he is described), I think for him, Harry wasn't only the object of his master's desire, but also a kind of project for himself. He wanted him to learn throw off the Imperius, because he had managed it himself after a long struggle.

It's like - you have a special kind of accident, or otherway mischief, and you spend your time preaching other people how to prevent it because it costed you so much.

[gottaloveLupin]

this is a really good questions.
i think that he is on DD' side, but I am not 100% sure.
as you said, I don't trust him completely.
there are still lots of things to find out about Snape.
He is not totally good, this is obvious.
I am not sure that he will be able to save Harry's life either.
Yes, he did it before, but I am not sure that he will do it again.
and I think that JKR said that we like Snape too much, implying that he isn't that good.
and I also remember-correct me if I'am wrong- that jKR also said that the reasons DD doesn't allow Snape to be DADA teacher is that he doesn't want snape to come in contact with the black magic again.
so, we all trust Dd's judgement, as Hr says. If Dd trusts Snape, then Snape must be a good guy.
And it seems that a lot of people expect Snape to save Harry's life, to sacrifice himself for the victory against Voldemort.
But what if this will be the big surprise and Snape will turn out to be quite evil and Dd wrong about him?

[Discordia]

I don't like Snape I really don't but I think that he's truly loyal to Dumbledore. Despite all that's happened he has shown true loyalty to him. However all the things we know about him just bring up even more questions and the pieces don't fit together. How he managed to stay alive when Voldemort obviously knows that he's left him forever and how he's managed to keep close ties to people like the Malfoys.....well, it all just doesn't seem to go together. Also Snape was never even accused of being a DE. Unless Malfoy didn't know Snape was a DE (since the books once said that sometimes the DE's weren't aware of everyone's identiees) but that doesn't seem right since you'd think he'd know. I think that we have yet to hear Snape's story from his own mouth or from someone elses. So far we've only heard bits and pieves about Snape from everyone elses point of view. Snape has defintely got a story we haven't heard yet. That's the only real thing that we can hypothesize. That Snape has a stroy only we just haven't heard what it is and whatever it is it must be something big for him to have left the DE's.

[Dagmar]

.... How he managed to stay alive when Voldemort obviously knows that he's left him forever and how he's managed to keep close ties to people like the Malfoys.....well, it all just doesn't seem to go together. Also Snape was never even accused of being a DE. Unless Malfoy didn't know Snape was a DE (since the books once said that sometimes the DE's weren't aware of everyone's identiees) but that doesn't seem right since you'd think he'd know. ....
Don't the DE's all have the brand on their forearms showing that they are linked to V. Did this only show up in book 3 or do the DE's wear them with pride like a tatoo? Surely Malfoy would notice if Snape had the brand.

[miss_lupin86]

I really don't know. There is something about him that questions his loyalty to DD in my mind. But then again like people have said DD trusts him and he hasn't been wrong so far has he?

[playmaker9]

DD has been wrong, not in fact, but in opinion. and that is what snape is, is an opinion. DD thinks that snape is good, but he can't know for sure. DD has been wrong b4 in his opinions, like not telling harry about the prophecy, etc.

cheers!

[Pegasus]

DD has been wrong, not in fact, but in opinion. and that is what snape is, is an opinion. DD thinks that snape is good, but he can't know for sure. DD has been wrong b4 in his opinions, like not telling harry about the prophecy, etc.
We don't know that. I think Dumbledore has solid fact we don't know about. The prophecy was parental misjudgment, not incorrect opinion. There is a difference. Dumbledore would not trust Snape so wholly (Legilemency lessons are nothing to be taken lightly) if he wasn't absolutely sure. Remember that we only know what Harry knows. At the present, it is none of our Harry's (and thus our) business why exactly Dumbledore trusts him so wholly, but we will find out, and at the present, we can take him at his word. There is no solid evidence to the contrary and all the evidence in the world that we can trust Snape.

[Inkheart7890]

Just because we don't know why Dumbledore trusts Snape, doesn't mean their isn't one. I think Snape is nasty to Harry anc Co. in class is because Draco thinks Snape is working for Voldemort and has to act the part infront of students and why Snape is nasty to Harry alone because Snape confuses Harry with James

[UselessCharmMaster]

My question would be: is Snape on the good side or on Dumbledore's side? No, I don't think DD is evil, but what if Snape is loyal only to Dumbledore? I've imagined the moment when Dumbledore dies, and Snape has no more reason to support the Order. NB, nobody in the Order except Dumbledore really trusts him.

[CRH_Ravenclaw]

I'm pretty sure that Snape is on the good, Dumbledore's (Harry's too), side. Snape just really hates Harry, but he would protect him. Snape was trying to save him when his broom whirled out of control in book one.

But let's not forget that Snape IS and ex-deatheater. I have a feeling that Snape might one day betray . . .

[Pegasus]

NB, nobody in the Order except Dumbledore really trusts him.
I don't know what NB means, but I don't think that's true. McGonagall and others have expressed distrust for Hagrid, and Sirius and Snape weren't exactly best friends, but I haven't seen any signs, and certainly any actual statements, that other people in the Order don't trust Snape. The only distrust I have seen is in the kids. In fact, when the kids go to Hagrid, he basically laughs it off and tells them that Snape is one of the teachers protecting the Stone.
I don't think Snape would betray, but I realize that's a matter of opinion. I see Harry and Snape finally having to reconcile so that everyone is completely on the same side, and so that Snape can really help Harry, and with that hurtle gone, the discord would be gone.

[harryfantotheend]

UselessCharmMaster- good point

He may not be all "pro-order" but maybe he owes something to Dumbledore. Or, how about this... has anybody ever heard the expression "my enemy's enemy is my ally?" Maybe something happened with Snape and Voldemort (Voldemort killed Lily- and Snape loved Lily?) that made Snape ally with the order/Dumbledore. Snape wasn't fond of the good side, however he joined with them against Voldemort. Make any sense?

If you're a..um.... "fan" of mine- you've seen this at the bottom of every post....so....
Happy Posting! :)

[Lanc]

I definitely think Snape is on Dumbledore's side. Whatever the reason, Snape has done enough to earn Dumbledore's trust, and even Dumbledore (who trusts people most others wouldn't) must have initially had difficulty trusting an ex-Death Eater. While I accept Snape could have been deceiving everybody all along (especially since he's a master of Occlumency), I don't believe he was.

As to why Snape changed sides, I really have no clue. I'm certain it wasn't because Voldemort killed Lily though, because Dumbledore said he changed sides before Voldemort was defeated. It could be because he wanted to make sure she didn't die (and perhaps that's the reason Voldemort didn't want to kill her, because he didn't need to and one of his servants didn't want him to), it could be about revenge or it could be for just about any other reason. But I'm certain Dumbledore has good reason to trust Snape and that's good enough for me until Snape proves otherwise.

[Discordia]

Don't the DE's all have the brand on their forearms showing that they are linked to V. Did this only show up in book 3 or do the DE's wear them with pride like a tatoo? Surely Malfoy would notice if Snape had the brand. Well considering the times they were and still are living in I'm not sure that the DE's would have gone around flashing it to everyone when the wizarding world is not overly fond of anyone whose in league with the DE's. I don't think it's as if Snape and Lucius had a few beers and than they started to show off their tatoos. So it's not like they'd have noticed since they usually keep it hidden underneath their robes and it's not like you see the DE's just carelessly showing eachother tatoos. He may or may not have known, but he probably does but it is still possible that he might not know. The books never explicitly said that Lucius knew that Snape had been a DE.

I dont' like Snape but I think he's loyal to Dumbledore and as long as we can be sure of that than he and Harry won't tear eachother to pieces. However I really don't believe that Snape's transformation had anythign to do with Lily and if it did he's hiding it well but I still think that his issues were between James and James alone.

Remember that Snape's good at keeping himself alive so if he could swtich sides to turn a spy for Dumbledore than there are a few more lives left in him yet.

[smartypants]

As to why Snape changed sides, I really have no clue.
Maybe we'll find out in later books. However, until then we can make guesses at JRK's ideas.

Looking at the timelines, it seems like Snape started going to Hogwarts at around the same time as Voldemort started his rise to power. Snape was fascinated by the dark arts, and probably had his head full of ideas of nasty revenge on the rest of the world. He would probably have seen Voldemort as a possibility for him to get power and take this revenge on the world.

Being a Slytherin, he surely was able to get in contact with Voldemort, and joined the Death Eaters. Now, I doubt that Voldemort would have allowed kids to become Death Eaters, so Snapes joining must have been after he graduated, or possibly during his last year or so.

It seems that Voldemort started his rise to power 70 or 71. Snape started school in 71 or 72. So probably, Snape was not a Death Eater until at the earliest 78. If we assume he had been helping Dumbledore secretly for a year before the fall of Voldemort, then he must have become a spy in 1980.

This means that Snape was only a true Death Eater for a maximum of two or three, year, quite possible much shorter, maybe even less than a year. That's not a very long time considering that it includes getting disillusioned and then deciding on what to do.

I think the reason Snape went over to the good side is simply because when he became a Death Eater, he had no idea what he was getting into. When he realized what he HAD gotten himself into, he tried to figure out what the best way out of the situation would be, and he decided on going to Dumbledore for help and to offer his services, because Dumbledore was one of the few people he was 100% sure that could be trusted.

That's my view of it.

[DarkMark90]

I don't really trust Snape. I haven't trusted Snape ever in the books. He always comes off as a sneaky person who can't be trusted. I think that by the end of the series, he will go back to Voldemort.

[Pegasus]

I don't really trust Snape. I haven't trusted Snape ever in the books. He always comes off as a sneaky person who can't be trusted. I think that by the end of the series, he will go back to Voldemort.
This sounds very Ron-like, though, and you know how Hermione would answer. Snape has proven himself time and time again in the books.
Hey, Liselle posted an interesting related article about Snape in the Deeper Layer thread. It's worth a read.

[Discordia]

Ron persists in believing that Snape is really horrible (which he is) while Hermione has faith that Snape is one of the good guys. I think to an extent they're both right. Although Snape's actions might be for the better(that is him being in the Order and all) his personality his just nasty. As long as Snape and Harry can't respect eachother they can't trust eachother.

[springthing4]

i guess since dumbledore believes that he's on the good side, then we all have to.

[Fleur du mal]

It was a PUBLIC TRIAL when Karkaroff named Snape to be a Death Eater; just like the other trials we learn about in GoF, even Rita Skeeter was there. Karkaroff accused Snape and Dumbledore defended him, and everybody who wanted to know could easily get the information. We can presume that Lucius WOULD want to know who of his former allies has changed sides, so both the fact that Snape was a Death Eater as well as that he became a spy should be obvious for him.

[vmonte]

Snape is emotionally abusive. He is a powerful
manipulator. In one of the books (I cannot remember where) I seem to
remember MaGonagall (someone let me know if I'm remembering this
correctly) stating that words are often more powerful than magic.
This is how I feel about Snape. He is great at verbal manipulation.
I sometimes think that Snape is not on the side of Dumbledore's OOTP,
nor Voldemort's DE. He seems to have contempt for both sides, and
enjoys manipulating people from both camps.

I remember reading Agatha Christie's last Hercule Piorot book
(Curtain?)as a kid. The murderer in that book never actually killed
anyone (not physically anyway). The murderer was great at motivating
other people to commit murders. The villian was so talented at
emotionally manipulating others that he even makes them think that
murder was their own idea.

Oh wait, that also reminds me of Iago in Shakespeare's Othello.

By the way...
How many times did Snape verbally attack Sirius while he was at OOTP
headquarters? I remember him basically calling Sirius a coward. Snape
knows Sirius, and he knows how to get to him. If he wanted Sirius out
of the way, these verbal attacks would work to get Sirius out in the
open, away from the safety of headquarters.

[Fleur du mal]

Oh come on, if we start counting how many times Snape was mad with Sirius, we should do it the other way round as well. They hated each other and had some very old debts together, but Dumbledore's final statement was true, they're both grown-up men, and it would just not be like Sirius to stay at home when Harry was in great peril, no matter what Snape had told him earlier.

[Nimue]

I am sure that Snape is on the good side right now, however, there is nothing that says that can't change later. Something could set him off and he could snap or have a bad moment of judgment.

I don't see what he would have to gain by switching sides outright. Under Voldy, he'll never be more than a lowly servant, whereas under Dumbledore he is in a position to earn great respect if he pulls off his "secret mission". (Notice that Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Mrs. Weasley are among those making a point of correcting the kids in using the title Professor Snape, so respect plays into here somewhere.)

Here is a possible scenario: I think that at some point Snape will have to publically betray Dumbledore in order to convince Voldy and Co. that he is on their side. Of course, no one but Dumbledore will know the truth (including US!) Will Harry, Ron, and Hermione totally fall for it, or will their clever natures lead them to believe that not everything is as it seems?

[UselessCharmMaster]

Here is a possible scenario: I think that at some point Snape will have to publically betray Dumbledore in order to convince Voldy and Co. that he is on their side. Of course, no one but Dumbledore will know the truth (including US!) Will Harry, Ron, and Hermione totally fall for it, or will their clever natures lead them to believe that not everything is as it seems?

I quite like the idea.

But as only Hermione is a really clever one... :huh:

[smartypants]

Only one thing is completely sure: At the end of book 7 we will know. The tension between Harry and Snape and his built-in good/evil ambiguity is to good to throw away. I can't imagine JKR just let it drain away into nothing, and let Snape go on being the potions master and continue to hate Harry with Harry hating him back. It would be too much of a anti-climax.

<In a strange and distant voice>
In the last days of the Dark Lord, the maker of potions will reveal his choice for all to see. His desire for greatness will destroy him. A new master will rise from his teaching.

[Pegasus]

I've been thinking about the whole Snape thing. It seems I spend half my time on these forums efending Snape in light of Dumbledore's trust and the fact that he's constantly saving Harry's life.
Here is something that is probably nothing new, but I just realized: Snape has been a Death Eater. He knows from experience how Voldemort treats his servants. I think you'd have to be truly evil and be willing to take an awful lot of torture to want to go back to the Dark Side after you've experienced both sides. Snape is a nasty, nasty man, but I just don't see him in the same light as Bellatrix Lestrange, Lucius Malfoy, and Crouch, Jr. Then there's Crabbe and Goyle--but they're too stupid to really know which way is up:)
Something caused Snape to turn away from Voldemort, and I think he's too smart to turn back. Dumbledore has so much more to offer--truth and goodness, to name two.
Which brings me to another point I've never considered before--If Snape is still posing as a DE for his spywork, how does he take the punishment? Does he have a way to block out the torture without letting on? Or is his form of spying more subtle? I just saw the theory about Snape being an animagus--maybe I'll return to that thread now.

[Dashriprock]

good points, Vmonte.
I dunno though, you guys, I tend to think that Snape is on Dumbledore's side, and thus against Voldemort. Remember in GoF when Voldemort is counting his DeathEaters and saying who is and who isn't there? He says, "the one who betrayed us; he will be killed, of course." Well isn't that Snape? I thought it was.

The character of Snape really is a fascinating, ingenious creation of JKR's. I love how it shows that not everyone is one hundred percent good or evil; not everything is black and white.

[Pegasus]

Dashriprock:Which DE Voldemort is speaking of in that statement is a hotly debated topic (The Three Missing Death Eaters, I believe, is the name of the thread). I personally think it is someone other than Snape, because I'm not sure Voldemort knows he left (we know he does his spywork somehow). I personally have no question about Snape's loyalties, but I just posted my thoughts.
Snape is the big mystery. Whether Rowling will let the cat out of the bag in the next book or leave us all hanging for another 5 years or more is anyone's guess, but it's driving us all crazy! I think it's genius, no matter how annoying it is.:)

[Fleur du mal]

[QUOTE=Pegasus]Dumbledore has so much more to offer--truth and goodness, to name two. [QUOTE]

What Dumbledore and his side really offer is freedom. And that's probably the main appeal that Voldemort's Order ever had for people like Snape and Lucius Malfoy (who are different from the fanatic Bellatrix), even if it is only on the first sight. Both (L.M. and S.S.) were still quite young when joining, both had a fancy for the Dark Arts, and felt limited by the moral corset of their school and society. They could not behave the way they wanted (Lucius) or get back on whom they wanted (Severus), so Voldemort just seemed to offer the right thing and possibilities. But appearances are deceiving; a master like Voldemort is absolute, he knows no mercy or compassion, and most certainly, he cannot deal with failures or flaws or accept other peoples' free will.
On the long run, that is much less appealing than Dumbledore's regulations; who is in a classical way liberal. Everybody can do or leave what they want, as long as they harm nobody else (and even there, you could start arguing: isn't Snape immensely harming Harry?). The Malfoys were pureblood fanatics, but Dumbledore would let them believe what they wish, for example.
I do not believe that Snape is much interested in terms like "truth or goodness" (very few people, apart from some priests and philosophers, are dealing with the abstract terms in itself!), he just wants nobody above him, telling him what to think, to believe, to do. Nobody that can force him to be answerable.
He has made this mistake in judgement when he was young, so he needs to colaborate with Dumbledore right now to vanquish Voldemort, otherwise he wouldn't live much longer. He may respect Dumbledore as a great wizard, even as his boss right now, but once the war is over, I'm pretty sure that Snape will "go back" to his existence as a loner. All he wants is to be let alone.

[Discordia]

I don't know what game Snape is playing at but one thing is for sure and that's the fact that he knows how to keep himself alive. If he's playing anyone's game he doing it by his own rules.

[Dagmar]

You could be right as Snape has us in a twist and that probably reflects upon his character as a whole. The fact that J.K.Rowling only told Alan Rickman about his character traits later on and none of the other cast members does suggest a possible personnel agenda, one separate from that of Voldemort or Dumbledore which could lead to his siding no one but himself in the end. I never saw it from that angle.
I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but I was on an Alan Rickman fansite and there had been a question about whether he would be in all 7 films and the answer is no. So possibly what she told him is Snape dies.

[UselessCharmMaster]

I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but I was on an Alan Rickman fansite and there had been a question about whether he would be in all 7 films and the answer is no. So possibly what she told him is Snape dies.

Maybe Rickman is already tired of Snape, and doesn't want to play him in all the movies?

But I won't mind if he dies. I only hope it will be a great scene. :evil: Even if he dies on the bad side (though I'd prefer him fighting for the goodies).

[Fleur du mal]

Oh no, not Snape! :upset:

But maybe, Snape goes into hiding in book VI, or is on a mission or whatever? So that's the reason why he won't be in all movies?
Yeah... if Snape is gone in that book, Harry's hate for him can marinate a bit...

[Pazarius]

I'm sure that this has been discussed before, but I was on an Alan Rickman fansite and there had been a question about whether he would be in all 7 films and the answer is no. So possibly what she told him is Snape dies.

If that info is accurate, the obvious explanation is that he will die. So why give the plot away?

Why did JKR tell Rickman anything? To help him understand the character. So why tell him he dies anyway? Surely his future death can't affect his character now?

Things may (and probably will) be revealed in future books that have already happened to Snape (we just don't know about them). It might be useful for Rickman to know some of these things. But an event that must occur in his future? Snape doesn't know he's going to die, so why should Rickman?

[Dagmar]

Oh no, not Snape! :upset:

But maybe, Snape goes into hiding in book VI, or is on a mission or whatever? So that's the reason why he won't be in all movies?
Yeah... if Snape is gone in that book, Harry's hate for him can marinate a bit...
Yeah I like your idea better.

[Nimue]

I really hope Snape doesn't die. He's so much fun to read.

However, if Snape does end up as the DADA teacher in the next book, then we'll all know he's not long for the wizard world; as no one seems to make it through the job for more than a year.

He doesn't strike me as the type to hide out.

[springthing4]

just because he isn't in all 7 movies doesn't mean that he dies. the dursley's aren't going to be in movie 4, but they didn't die!

[Nimue]

I can't image Snape still being around yet not being in one of the movies. He is such a fixture now. (I've become accustomed to his facetiousness).

Besides, the Durselys' are rather expendable as far as the plot in the third book and quite possibly the fourth book. They will definitely be needed by fifth.

[smartypants]

If Snape dies, I would be extremely surprised if it is in book 6. In the end of book 7, fine, but then Snape is in all films. So I think it's Alan Rickman who doesn't want to do more Snape than he has a contract for. Which I think really sucks, because he is really perfect as Snape.

[springthing4]

maybe voldemort will find out whatever snape is doing for the order and kill him like he promised at the end of book 4.

[Sineed]

If Snape dies, I would be extremely surprised if it is in book 6. In the end of book 7, fine, but then Snape is in all films. So I think it's Alan Rickman who doesn't want to do more Snape than he has a contract for. Which I think really sucks, because he is really perfect as Snape.

Alan Rickman is 57 years old, which makes him about 20 years older than Snape. Considering the lag time between each picture, maybe he figures he'll be too old for the last one. So maybe what JKR told AR is that Snape springs into action in the last book/film, fighting LV and the DEs.

After all, so far, JKR has avoided any confrontations between the DEs and Snape. In the last book, he's conveniently searching the Forbidden Forest for Harry instead of fighting it out with the rest of the Order.

And he's supposed to be Lucius Malfoy's "lapdog," but so far, we have never seen these two together, so we haven't been able to suss out their relationship first-hand.

[springthing4]

Alan Rickman is 57?? he looks much younger, and isn't this only a rumor that snape won't be in all 7 movies? or was it confirmed?

[Nephel]

Snape should be in all seven of the movies, it'd be really cheesy to have him in the first five, then cast some unknown to play him :upset: I havent heard anything otherwise.

[Dagmar]

Alan Rickman is 57?? he looks much younger, and isn't this only a rumor that snape won't be in all 7 movies? or was it confirmed?
http://www.thebottomstripe.net/alan/index2.html check out the alan FAQ.
I don't know how accurate this is, but the rest of the info seems legit.

[smartypants]

The same speculations was ripe when Robbie Coltran said he was signed for all of the movies - sort of... :) In fact, they may be planning to Switch the cast completely after Goblet of Fire. The Order of the Phoenix is planned for 2007, and therefore filmed in 2006. Bu then Daniel Radcliff is 17 and Rupert Grint 18, and they are playing 15 year olds. Will it work? Maybe, maybe not. And what if the next book doesn't come out anytime soon? Well, then they HAVE to switch out who plays the kids. And then they might want to do a clean cut and switch out most of the rest of the cast too.


Or in short: We have no frigging clue, so stop speculating! And that goes for me too! :)

[Kalypso]

I've read through the whole of this thread, and the beginning at least talked quite a bit about the chapters of GoF that are about the graveyard and the Death Eaters rejoining Voldemort.

“And here we have six missing Death Eater.. three dead in my service. One too cowardly to return.. he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever.. he will be killed, or course..”

It seems to be taken for granted the Snape is one of these discussed. But what if Snape isn’t one of them at all? There are two possibilities. 1) There were more gaps that Voldemort didn’t mention and 2) Snape was actually at the graveyard that night.

“WHAT?” I hear you cry! “That’s STUPID!” This was my original reaction. But bear with me. This is now one of my pet theories. In my opinion, it’s a definite possibility Snape was there.

JK writes ‘Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them’. Through this we can see that there are some Death Eaters we are not aware of in this scene at all. They may be characters we know of, they may not. One of them may be Severus Snape.

It’s my view that the ‘left me forever’ quote could easily be a red herring. We are led to believe Voldemort means Snape and Karkaroff, but to me it seems too obvious, especially as JK has left open the possibility for Snape not to be one of them at all. If the Death Eater who has left forever is not Snape then, who else could it be? I've heard speculation that it could be Fudge or Umbridge. Although both are possible, there's no evidence to support it.

Move forward a few chapters to The Parting of the Ways. Harry is back from the graveyard and Dumbledore is talking about his plan of action. Sirius and Snape shake hands and then –

‘Severus,’ said Dumbledore, turning to Snape. You know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready.. if you are prepared..’
‘I am,’ said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.
‘Then, good luck,’ said Dumbeldore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.
It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again.
From this it’s obvious Snape was just about to embark on something pretty dangerous. What was it? What did he need to be ready for?

I think it’s possible that he could have taken a time turner to go back to the graveyard. He could have taken a thestral out of Hogwarts, then apparated from Hogsmeade. If he was there, Harry would not have seen him because all the Death Eaters were wearing masks. Why then would Voldemort not have spoken to him? Perhaps not all the Death Eaters knew the identity of everyone in their group, or perhaps JK just did not want to give the game away.

I think Snape is definitely spying for the Order, because of what he says in Seen and Unforseen (OotP).

‘That’s just as well, Potter,’ said Snape, coldly. ‘Because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.
‘No – that’s your job, isn’t it?’ Harry shot at him
… But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape’s face when he answered.
‘Yes, Potter,’ he said, his eyes glinting. ‘That is my job.’

From this is seems highly likely Snape is still recognised as a Death Eater, as he knows what is said to them. If this is correct, it in turn must mean Voldemort feels Snape still has something to offer him. I think Snape is working as a double agent, but who is he really loyal to? I don’t know. Perhaps he is helping both sides. If he was only feeding false information to Voldemort, he would quickly be found out.

Meh, apologies if this has all already been said or is taken for granted.

[Kelroy]

Snape is on Dumbledore's side. Harry just doesn't want to believe this because he thinks that everything is in black and white. Either you're with Voldemort or against him. Harry doesn't understand how someone like Snape could hate him so much, and still be fighting along side him. This particular plot in the book, I think, will have a huge impact on the final outcome of the story.

[Sineed]

Great post, Kalypso! Yes, many of your points have been made before, on various threads, but you summarized many ideas that were fragmented all over the place to show how Snape is on DD's side.

There's another possibility; I'm not sure if it was already discussed in this thread: that the dangerous mission Snape was sent on was to go to LV, and plead his case, saying he couldn't come to the graveyard because of his Hogwarts responsibilities. So he could have initially been the one who has left forever, but he then could have, perhaps after some sort of punishment, talked his way back into LV's good graces, in order to be an effective spy for DD.

[Nimue]

I've read through the whole of this thread, and the beginning at least talked quite a bit about the chapters of GoF that are about the graveyard and the Death Eaters rejoining Voldemort.

“And here we have six missing Death Eater.. three dead in my service. One too cowardly to return.. he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever.. he will be killed, or course..”

It seems to be taken for granted the Snape is one of these discussed. But what if Snape isn’t one of them at all? There are two possibilities. 1) There were more gaps that Voldemort didn’t mention and 2) Snape was actually at the graveyard that night.
I also agree that it's likely that Snape was at the graveyard the night Voldemort returned. I think the the two missing DEs that Voldy was referring to were Karkaroff and Ludo Bagman (doesn't anyone remember that he was a Death Eater too?) This leaves Snape to be acting as a double agent and still fooling Lucius Malfoy into thinking he's loyal to the dark side.

Also, there was a passage that I haven't seen repeated in any of this, and when I read it, it really seem to stick out from the rest of the dialogue. I can't imagine if it wasn't significant, why it would be there:

"Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out of bed again, but Mrs. Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy-- "
Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge. Why the sudden movement on Snape's part? It's not that he was concerned about Harry reporting Malfoy to Fudge because in the next paragraph Fudge is vehement in stating that Malfoy had been cleared (he was already known to have dealings with Voldy). I think it was because Snape realized it was possible Harry had known he was at the graveyard and was about to give him away.

No doubt Snape realized had that been true, he would have been the first person Harry would have accused.

[Kalypso]

YES! Ludo Bagman! *hits self round head* That would clear up a lot! Voldemort must have failed to mention one of those three! So now what remains is - which one was it? And does it have any significance? Does it mean one of them (most likely Snape) was there, or just not important?

I also think if Voldemort meant Snape when he said 'he will be killed of course' why hadn't he killed him earlier? We know (or think) Snape switched sides before Voldemort lost power, so if Voldy thought Snape was on Dumbeldore's side surely he'd have killed him right away? Also, if Lucius believes Snape to be on his side, then perhaps the other DEs do as well. It just doesn't seem to fit that Voldemort would just dismiss Snape so lightly. Bagman however would be a different story, because we've all seen how weak he is underneath the bouncy exterior etc.

If Snape was at the graveyard, that would explain his reaction, like you said.

Sineed, you're right. I missed that out and that's a third possibility. I'm certain Snape went to find Voldemort or the Death Eaters somehow. I don't really see what else it could be, given we know he acted as a spy etc and seems to be doing so again.

But if he was at the graveyard, do you think he tried to help Harry escape? I always found it quite surprising he managed to get away. Perhaps Snape sent spells the wrong way, to try and cause confusion etc. Hmm.

[Nimue]

I am almost positive if Snape was at the graveyard that he would have done all within his power to help out Harry. For all the blustering on how much he hates Harry, he sure has gone out of his way in the past to protect him from harm.

However, Harry was separated from the Death Eaters during his duel with Voldemort so I don't think there was anything Snape could do to help him there. Lucky for him, Voldemort had the misfortune of discovering that his wand is ineffective in dueling against Harry.

Just as a sidenote, the major reason I think that Snape is not on dark side is because I think he truly hates Voldemort more than anything or anybody (yes, even Sirius or the male Potters). While most people become fearful at the mention of Voldemort's name and rest (like Bellatrix) consider it blasphemy coming from Harry's lips, Snape becomes furious at the mere mention of the name.

And for the record, if both Snape and Harry happen to survive to the end, I still don't see them kicking back together in a pub somewhere and having a beer.

[Nephel]

I am almost positive if Snape was at the graveyard that he would have done all within his power to help out Harry. For all the blustering on how much he hates Harry, he sure has gone out of his way in the past to protect him from harm.

However, Harry was separated from the Death Eaters during his duel with Voldemort so I don't think there was anything Snape could do to help him there. Lucky for him, Voldemort had the misfortune of discovering that his wand is ineffective in dueling against Harry.

Just as a sidenote, the major reason I think that Snape is not on dark side is because I think he truly hates Voldemort more than anything or anybody (yes, even Sirius or the male Potters). While most people become fearful at the mention of Voldemort's name and rest (like Bellatrix) consider it blasphemy coming from Harry's lips, Snape becomes furious at the mere mention of the name.

And for the record, if both Snape and Harry happen to survive to the end, I still don't see them kicking back together in a pub somewhere and having a beer.

I don't think Snape was at the grave yard. When Harry returned from the graveyard and was taken to Mad-Eye's office, Snape arrived with Dumbledore and Mcgonagall, so Snape would of had to run like hell to get back in time. The Death Eaters might have to stay behind aswell for a meeting or something, to discuss Voldemort's intentions.
I think Snape pursued Voldemort when Dumlbedore asked him too 'You know what I must ask you to do, Severus'. So Snape turned up to the meeting late, having the excuse that he couldn't apparate out of Hogwarts.

[Kalypso]

I don't think Snape was at the grave yard. When Harry returned from the graveyard and was taken to Mad-Eye's office, Snape arrived with Dumbledore and Mcgonagall, so Snape would of had to run like hell to get back in time. The Death Eaters might have to stay behind as well for a meeting or something, to discuss Voldemort's intentions.
I think Snape pursued Voldemort when Dumbledore asked him too 'You know what I must ask you to do, Severus'. So Snape turned up to the meeting late, having the excuse that he couldn't apparate out of Hogwarts.
But JK has already brought in the idea of time turners, and it wouldn't be like her to only use them in PoA. Isn't it possible Snape went to the graveyard after Harry had come back from the graveyard? This would mean he could go to Mad Eye's office from the school, and then go to the graveyard. If this happened, he would have known Harry survived anyway, so he wouldn't need to risk giving himself away by protecting him.

IF Snape was at the graveyard, it's possible this could have happened, I think:
*Snape leaves the room after speaking to Dumbledore
*Snape goes somewhere that is safe to take the timeturner and where he can apparate
*Snape takes timeturner to go back to before the DEs are summoned
*Snape apparates to the graveyard when he feels the Dark Mark burn
*Snape is at the graveyard for the whole time
*Snape finds out how Voldemort reacts etc, then returns to the designated safe place (not where we saw him with Harry)
*We next see him at the leaving feast.

Also, the Death Eaters next to Lucius after the space for the Lestranges are never named. This could be a coincidence, but we know Snape and Malfoy get on, so it's possible Snape would have been standing next to him - if the DEs could recognise each other in their masks. It seems like they may also have had set places to stand.

Some questions this theory raises - Where did Snape get a timeturner? Why didn't Voldemort speak to him? Why didn't Voldemort think it was odd Snape apparated so promptly when you can't apparate from Hogwarts?

It could just be that Voldy wanted to speak to Snape and ask him these questions privately, although it does seem slightly odd. And perhaps Dumbledore had a timeturner, even though you need ministry permission.

Also, do you think Voldemort knows Snape is in the Order?

[Nimue]

I don't think time is that much of a problem. I think it could have been done, even without the use of the time turner (which I really doubt they would have risked using). The Hogwarts gates aren't that far from the castle. Since Voldemort thinks Snape is working for him and Harry lived to tell the tale of his return, he would probably dismiss Snape quickly so as not to blow his cover. The events in the book probably did not unfold as quickly as we read them, so it could have been 15 to 20 minutes from the time of Harry's return to the time that Dumbledore, McGongall, and Snape blasted into Moody's office. Plenty of time for Snape to return and report to Dumbledore.

That's my opinion of what happened. It seemed to me that Dumbledore suddenly had a lot of knowlege about what had just transpired. I think Snape returned and told him that 1) Voldy had returned and 2) his most loyal servant who was at Hogwarts had just engineered the deliverance of Harry.


"... and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." The Death Eaters stirred, and Harry saw their eyes dart sideways at one another through their masks.
"He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived here tonight..."

I don't think Voldemort knows that Snape is in the Order.

[Fleur du mal]

Ludo Bagman has never been a Death Eater as far as we know. From what we know, he's babbled around informations to Rookwood, an old friend of his father. He wasn't even accused of being a Death Eater, just for giving away confidential informations.

That doesn't mean that he hasn't been one, especially as his trial has been such a farce (I always thought there was something fishy about the trial itself), but somehow... no, he doesn't strike me to be a real Death Eater, like Lucius or Bellatrix. If he had such powers and skills in the Dark Arts, how come he cannot even finish off some goblins? Maybe he was a minor supporter, but none of the "real" in-crowd.

[Nimue]

Our infomation about Bagman is ambiguous at best-- just another one of JKR's mysteries to be revealed later. I don't think we can say either way right now whether he was a DE or not, but I doubt you have to highly talented to be one. Also, remember that some people were marked but got cold feet later (Regulas, for example).

Sirius: "From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out."
Dumbledore seemed to think it important to review Bagman's trial, and Ludo obviously used his celebrity status to sway the vote.

Ludo is playing dumb (which is not a far stretch) but he first said he didn't know Rookwood was a DE, then Ludo claimed he was trying to get information "for our side!" , then he babbled on about Rookman getting him a job at the Ministry of Magic.

Sounds pretty fishy to me.

I'll stick with Karkaroff and Bagman being the missing DEs for now.

[Lanc]

I don't think time is that much of a problem. I think it could have been done, even without the use of the time turner (which I really doubt they would have risked using). The Hogwarts gates aren't that far from the castle. Since Voldemort thinks Snape is working for him and Harry lived to tell the tale of his return, he would probably dismiss Snape quickly so as not to blow his cover. The events in the book probably did not unfold as quickly as we read them, so it could have been 15 to 20 minutes from the time of Harry's return to the time that Dumbledore, McGongall, and Snape blasted into Moody's office. Plenty of time for Snape to return and report to Dumbledore.

That's my opinion of what happened. It seemed to me that Dumbledore suddenly had a lot of knowlege about what had just transpired. I think Snape returned and told him that 1) Voldy had returned and 2) his most loyal servant who was at Hogwarts had just engineered the deliverance of Harry.

So then what is it Dumbledore is asking Snape to do at the end of GoF? If it's true that Snape was there and Dumbledore knows he was there, I doubt he can have been asking Snape to resume his spying role because he would already know Snape is ready and prepared since he's already been doing just that. If he was there and Dumbledore doesn't know, it would suggest Snape is deceiving Dumbledore for some reason, possibly because he really is on Voldemort's side. And why would Snape have been in a position to apparate to Voldemort's side the instant he was called? From what I remember, there weren't any Death Eaters noticably later than the others, so unless Snape happened to have his Death Eater apparel on him at the time Voldemort called he would have had to race to the school to get it, then race to a place where he could apparate. Or he would have to get outside Hogwarts, apparate to where he keeps his Death Eater clothes then apparate to Voldemort. Or I suppose he could Accio his clothes, but I would have thought somebody would notice them flying through the air. I don't think he had time to get there after Voldemort called, though if he did he probably had time to get back too.

I never would have thought of Snape using a time-turner to make it on time. I suppose it does make some sense. Still, I always thought Snape had showed up late and persuaded Voldemort that he didn't arrive immediately because he was at Hogwarts where he couldn't apparate from. I also thought Voldemort would take Snape back, though not fully trusting him, since he would be glad to have somebody inside Hogwarts. And Snape's apparent lack of information on Voldemort's plan to get Harry to the Ministry suggests to me that either he wasn't fully informed by the Death Eaters or that he didn't fully inform the Order. I suspect it was that he wasn't fully informed because he isn't fully trusted by Voldemort because he opposed Quirrell (though I doubt Snape knew for a fact he was opposing Voldemort at the time) and he was late.

[Nephel]

Dumbledore seemed to think it important to review Bagman's trial, and Ludo obviously used his celebrity status to sway the vote.


Since you put it like that it does seem kinda ominous now, when you interpret that scene it doesn't really contribute to the plot of GoF, so why did Dumbledore want to examine it?

[Nimue]

*Arrrrgh!* You all make it a challenge for me to defend my position!

So then what is it Dumbledore is asking Snape to do at the end of GoF? If it's true that Snape was there and Dumbledore knows he was there, I doubt he can have been asking Snape to resume his spying role because he would already know Snape is ready and prepared since he's already been doing just that.
I'll concede that the simplest explanation usually turns out to be the correct one (Dumbledore was sending Snape off to meet with Voldy), but I think that Dumbledore might have been setting a plan into motion other than "go spy now". Voldemort was very clear on who was missing and why. Karkaroff was the one who was too cowardly to return (Snape admitted that much to Fudge):

"This Mark has been growing clearer all year. Karkaroff's too.Why do you think Karkaroff fled tonight? We both felt the Mark burn. We both knew he had returned. Karkaroff fears the Dark Lord's vengeance. He betrayed too many of his fellow Death Eaters to be sure of a welcome back into the fold."
So the only place left for Snape, had he not shown up when called, would have been the "one who has left forever". If that was in reference to Snape, then why would Malfoy have been so friendly toward him all this time? Lucius was not above showing contempt for those he considered on the "other side".

Not only that, but I agree with Kalypso who commented that Voldemort wouldn't have let him off that lightly. If Voldemort ever had an inkling that one of his Death Eaters had crossed him, I am sure he would have them killed outright/ no explanantions necessary.

Now about that nasty time problem...

And why would Snape have been in a position to apparate to Voldemort's side the instant he was called? From what I remember, there weren't any Death Eaters noticably later than the others, so unless Snape happened to have his Death Eater apparel on him at the time Voldemort called he would have had to race to the school to get it, then race to a place where he could apparate. Or he would have to get outside Hogwarts, apparate to where he keeps his Death Eater clothes then apparate to Voldemort. Or I suppose he could Accio his clothes, but I would have thought somebody would notice them flying through the air.
*LOL at the picture of Snape's clothing flying through the air!*

As Snape had said earlier, he and Karkaroff saw their Marks becoming clearer, so it was not a complete surprise when it began to burn. All the Death Eaters were to appear instanty when called, so that meant no matter where any of them were or what they were doing at the time, they had to appear immediately with mask and cloak. Do you think all of Death Eaters always carry their costumes around? Maybe it is tied in with the spell of the Dark Mark, and upon arriving, they are already cloaked and masked.

Also, the tournament took place at the Quidditch pitch which is away from the castle. It might be closer to the gates, which would have put Snape in a better position from which to disapparate and apparate.

Snape's apparent lack of information on Voldemort's plan to get Harry to the Ministry suggests to me that either he wasn't fully informed by the Death Eaters or that he didn't fully inform the Order.
Apparently, there is a caste system within the DE. Snape is mostly likely low on the totem pole. He has been called Malfoy's "lapdog", so they probably only give him information on a "need to know" basis. While it's convenient to have a spy at Hogwarts, Snape is limited on how much knowledge he can pass on. I would think that spies at the Ministry of Magic would be more valuable (of which there are plenty).

[smartypants]

I think the the two missing DEs that Voldy was referring to were Karkaroff and Ludo Bagman (doesn't anyone remember that he was a Death Eater too?)
No he wasn't. He was accused of helping them, but said that he did so unknowingly. He thought he was helping the ministry, because he had been contacted and was helping a ministry official (Rookwood) who turned out to be a death eater.

Ludo was never accused of being a death eater per se, just helping them. And he was found innocent.

It is of course possible that JKR at tricking us, and that the two traitors mentioned are some other people than Snape and Karakoff, but if they are, there are few hints of who.

[MnMbabe]

Not only that, but I agree with Kalypso who commented that Voldemort wouldn't have let him off that lightly. If Voldemort ever had an inkling that one of his Death Eaters had crossed him, I am sure he would have them killed outright/ no explanantions necessary.
I agree too. It is said over and over in the books that Voldemort doesnt let people off the hook. He just wouldnt do that. He's killed other DE's before, i dont see why this would be an acception.
Good post my fellow Nebraskan! its a small world:D

[Kalypso]

If Snape was the Death Eater who Voldy thinks had 'left forever' and will be 'killed of course', and then Snape shows up afterwards, I find it out of character that Voldemort would accept him back into the fold. We know Voldemort does not forgive easily, and also that he kills people if they try to back out or change sides. (eg Regulus) If Snape did go to find Voldemort after that, he's still alive by the end of OotP, so he must have done some pretty serious convincing, or had something pretty good to offer Voldemort to prove he was on his side.

Also, Voldy had just lost Harry Potter AGAIN, so he wasn't likely to be in the best of moods for negotiating.

(Where is the Bagman chapter, anyway? I feel the need to reread)

Another extremely vague point that could back up the idea Snape was at the grave yard is that at Harry's trial, when Dumbledore is talking about the dementors in Privet Drive, Umbridge seems to react. If it's correct to assume this, we now know this is because she sent them. This is somewhat similar to the circumstances in which Snape reacts, like Nemue talked about, when Harry mentions the Death Eaters that were there.

"Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out of bed again, but Mrs. Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy-- "
Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge.

'Oh, I don't think any of us believe the Dementors were there by coincidence,' said Dumbledore lightly.
The witch sitting to the right of Fudge, with her face in shadow, moved slightly, but everyone else was quite still and silent."

This was innocuous at the time, but we now know she was the one who ordered the Death Eaters there, which is probably why she reacted. It's POSSIBLE Snape reacted the way he did because he was at the grave yard and wondered if Harry would name him - it could definitely explain why he reacted. Then again, he could also just be reacting to the name Lucius Malfoy.

[jordmundt6]

Kalypso--valid points. This was the immediate question posed to everyone who trumpeted Snape as the obvious choice for the one who "left." Regulus is an interesting idea, but we have confirmation from JKR in her World Book Day Chat that he's already dead. There is another possibility that you don't raise.

1. Severus felt the burn.
2. He moseyed into the Forest during the ruckus and Apparated to the meeting (it took a few minutes for the DEs to gather in their cirlce).
3. He was not personally addressed when Voldemort singled specific people out (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Avery, etc.)
4. When Harry began to name names, Snape feared he would name all names and reacted to Malfoy being named because, given his history with Harry, he'd be next on the list and this would be a very precarious position for him to put himself in.

Furthermore, Snape demonstrated that he had been a Death Eater by showing Fudge his scar and giving testimony about Karkaroff.

What's this Bagman business now? The evidence on him is sketchy and inconclusive, though he'd be an...interesting alternative choice for the "one too cowardly to return."

Umbridge is not a DE. She reacts because this speculation strikes her close to home but she thought she was serving her own interest and Fudge's.

[Pegasus]

I don't see how the one too cowardly to return could be anyone but Karkaroff. We know he had the Death Mark and was scared out of his wits when he showed it to Snape. We also know he fled. What further evidence do we need?
If Voldemort thinks that Snape is spying on Dumbledore, is it possible that he was excused from the meeting because it would be awfully suspicious if it was discovered he was missing from Hogwarts? About Snape's reaction to Harry's account --someone brought up a few weeks ago that it showed a lot of courage for Snape to reveal his Dark Mark and explain its meaning to Fudge--he could have been sentenced to Azkaban on the spot.

[Nimue]

Smartypants:He was accused of helping them, but said that he did so unknowingly. He thought he was helping the ministry, because he had been contacted and was helping a ministry official (Rookwood) who turned out to be a death eater.

And you believe him??? lol. I didn't see Dumbledore vouching for him... but he did for Snape. I'd have to say that the track record for competency at the Ministry of Magic hasn't been so hot.

I suppose we'll have to wait find out. I agree that JKR is a mastermind at twists!

Pegasus: About Snape's reaction to Harry's account --someone brought up a few weeks ago that it showed a lot of courage for Snape to reveal his Dark Mark and explain its meaning to Fudge--he could have been sentenced to Azkaban on the spot.

I don't think Snape being a former Death Eater is a big secret. When Karkaroff was on trial, he named Death Eaters to try to save his own hide. When he saw his information was useless he became desperate:

"Snape! he shouted. "Severus Snape!"
"Snape has been cleared by this council, " said Crouch disdainfully. "He has been vouched for by Albus Dumbledore."
"No!" shouted Karkaroff... "I assure you! Severus Snape is a Death Eater!"
(Dumbledore) "I have given evidence already on this matter," he said calmly. "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined...
So, Snape didn't have anything to lose by showing his Mark.

[Pegasus]

Okay, I forgot about that--I stand corrected. I still don't think that seen is any proof against Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. In fact, once Harry has told his story, Dumbledore says, "Snape, you know what you must do" or something to that effect. I have yet to see any solid evidence against Snape being completely on the up-and-up with Dumbledore--I think Rowling has just left us in the dark on purpose regarding why. She has two full books left to write, after all--she can't very well give it all away at once!

[dracosgoddess89]

I agree, Severus Snape had nothing to lose showing his mark, he had already been cleared by the council years before ... i hope however that JK explains WHY !!!!!!!

[piemaster]

I think that Snape will come through for Harry in the very last book and then have a dramatic death.

[dracosgoddess89]

I think that Snape will come through for Harry in the very last book and then have a dramatic death.

I hope that doesnt happen ... he can come through for harry but i dont want him to die! that would be awful cuz then every one would be like poor snape :rotfl: haha that would be funny ... hehehehe :rotfl:

[Meyka Nonew]

I have a theory.

We know that Barty Crouch Jr. was "kissed" by a dementor at the end of book 4; his soul was removed, leaving the shell of his body. Lupin, in book three, told Harry that someone could live without their soul. So, it may be possible that Snape has conjured up a Polyjuice Potion, and is disguising himself as Voldemort's "greatest servant," by using hair/skin from the younger Crouch's still-living body. Voldmort would of course trust the Death Eater who was responsible for bringing back his body, and Snape may have easy access to him then.

I don't believe we were told of any publicity about the fact that Crouch Jr. was "kissed." Was it made known to the public that Prof. Moody was an imposter?

I'm still puzzled over the fact that Draco is Snape's supposedly favorite student if Lucious was a Death Eater and Snape a traitor of Voldemort. Of course, Luscious (man, how do you spell that name?) didn't know big V was alive until the 4th book, but still, one would usually be distressed if they found out that a former teammate was a traitor. I would expect Lucious to tell Draco to be difficult in Potions class. Unless, of course, he told his son to find out as much as he could about Snape...for some reason. It could just be an act on both Draco and Snape's parts.

[Pegasus]

Nah, I don't think so. Polyjuice Potion lasts exactly one hour, for one thing. How can Snape dodge between two identities effectively with those kinds of restrictions?

[dracosgoddess89]

Maybe they dont exactly know that Snape was a spy ... possibly he has managed to keep it on the down low ... idk ... just a guess

[Lanc]

I do think Snape could have convinced Voldemort that he was on his side if he is the one Voldemort thought had left him. Voldemort says he believes one of his Death Eaters has left forever, not that he is absolutely certain of it. Since Voldemort is not totally certain that whoever it is has left him, Snape could persuade him that he still is loyal, especially if he passed on information about Dumbledore, Hogwarts and Harry. Even then, however, I don't think Voldemort would completely trust him and so Snape would not be privy to all the Death Eater's plans and secrets, especially not plans such as the trap at the Ministry.

If Snape was in the graveyard, that raises the question of what Dumbledore wanted to do that worried Snape, that he would need to be prepared for. The obvious answer is that Dumbledore wanted him to be a spy again, but why would Dumbledore ask that if he knew Snape had already been to a Death Eater meeting? So if Snape was there, either Dumbledore doesn't know he was (in which case Snape is keeping something from him), or Dumbledore has another dangerous task for him other than being a spy.

As for why Lucius gets on well with Snape, we don't actually have any evidence other than what others have said as to what Lucius thinks of Snape. Everybody says Lucius likes him, but we've never seen Lucius show that for himself. Now, it would be odd for everyone to be wrong about this, but it could be that Lucius has some reason to fool everyone into thinking he likes Snape, while Snape obviously has a reason to persuade people he likes Lucius when he doesn't. And since Voldemort did not announce who the three Death Eaters were, the other Death Eaters might not immediately know. So if Snape did persuade Voldemort he was loyal the other Death Eaters would would not doubt him until later. Finally, why would Lucius assume Snape has changed sides? Snape has shown no real evidence of it, so why couldn't he be a Death Eater hiding his true colours until later, much like Lucius, Macnair, etc did. Until and unless Voldemort told the Death Eaters Snape is a traitor they would have no real reason to suspect him aside from working at Hogwarts, where he acts much like a Death Eater in hiding.

[Kalypso]

Kalypso--valid points. This was the immediate question posed to everyone who trumpeted Snape as the obvious choice for the one who "left." Regulus is an interesting idea, but we have confirmation from JKR in her World Book Day Chat that he's already dead. There is another possibility that you don't raise.
Yes, I brought up Regulus as an example that Voldemort will kill Death Eaters he thinks have left his side or are trying to back out.

1. Severus felt the burn.
2. He moseyed into the Forest during the ruckus and Apparated to the meeting (it took a few minutes for the DEs to gather in their cirlce).
3. He was not personally addressed when Voldemort singled specific people out (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, Avery, etc.)
4. When Harry began to name names, Snape feared he would name all names and reacted to Malfoy being named because, given his history with Harry, he'd be next on the list and this would be a very precarious position for him to put himself in.

Furthermore, Snape demonstrated that he had been a Death Eater by showing Fudge his scar and giving testimony about Karkaroff.
If Snape was at the graveyard, Fudge knew he had been a DE, but not that he was still meeting with them.

Umbridge is not a DE. She reacts because this speculation strikes her close to home but she thought she was serving her own interest and Fudge's. Umbrdge probably reacts because she sent the Death Eaters from the Ministry (we know this) and if the matter is looked into she might be found out. I brought this point up because if both are 'guilty' JK writes both their reactions in a similar way.

I think one of the theories about Snape that night has to be correct. Either he was at the graveyard and not the DE Voldy mentioned (either by using a time turner - explaining what Dumbledore said - or by going straight to the graveyard when he felt the mark burn) or he went to find Voldemort afterwards. If the second is the case, what I want to know is how Snape convinced Voldemort to change his mind.

Voldy says at the graveyard:
(Why didn't my DEs believe I would come back?) 'And I answer myself, perhaps they believed a still greater power could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort.. perhaps they now pay allegience to another.. perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore?'
At the mention of Dumbledore's name, the members of the circle stirred, and some muttered and shook their heads.
Voldemort ignored them.

He could mean Snape when he says this. I find it hard to believe Voldemort doesn't know Snape was ever a spy. Unless his plan was for Snape to pretend to spy for Dumbledore, while really being loyal to him, I don't think he'd be best pleased. I think Voldemort probably knows because I think Lucius would know, as he has so much influence in the Ministry etc. Also, after the war was thought over, it wasn't really a secret, was it?

Speculation on how Snape convinced Voldemort he was loyal? Is he helping both sides? Does Dumbledore permit this? Do they think up misinformation to feed Voldemort together? Unless there's a lot we don't know, Snape hasn't actually been that helpful to Dumbledore. He didn't know (or tell him, if he did) about the ministry attack, and if he was a DE he might have known about Voldemort's plan to use Harry's mind. Even if Voldemort didn't tell him, he knew about it, and he stopped giving Harry Occlumency lessons without telling Dumbledore.

[neville*longbottom]

Snape's a red herring. Nothing more. The author just wants the readers to be paying attention to him and not the other less noiticable characters. Take the first book. With Harry's suspicions always on snape, the real danger was overlooked.

And since then, the readers have been focused on the "is snape good or bad" question.

Snape is not that important of a character. His usefulness is nothing more than a distraction, and in a secondary aspect a look back into the past. He is one of the few remnants of James and Lily's school days. He does his small bits in the books, but he is not someone that will be significant to the plot.

[Dagmar]

I have a theory.

We know that Barty Crouch Jr. was "kissed" by a dementor at the end of book 4; his soul was removed, leaving the shell of his body. Lupin, in book three, told Harry that someone could live without their soul. So, it may be possible that Snape has conjured up a Polyjuice Potion, and is disguising himself as Voldemort's "greatest servant," by using hair/skin from the younger Crouch's still-living body. Voldmort would of course trust the Death Eater who was responsible for bringing back his body, and Snape may have easy access to him then.

I don't believe we were told of any publicity about the fact that Crouch Jr. was "kissed." Was it made known to the public that Prof. Moody was an imposter?

I'm still puzzled over the fact that Draco is Snape's supposedly favorite student if Lucious was a Death Eater and Snape a traitor of Voldemort. Of course, Luscious (man, how do you spell that name?) didn't know big V was alive until the 4th book, but still, one would usually be distressed if they found out that a former teammate was a traitor. I would expect Lucious to tell Draco to be difficult in Potions class. Unless, of course, he told his son to find out as much as he could about Snape...for some reason. It could just be an act on both Draco and Snape's parts.

I like this idea. Snape is certainly the master of potions.

[JadeDragon]

I don't see why it has to be common knowledge that Snape was a DE. It doesn't become common knowledge that there were Dementors in Little Whinging. I can see Karkaroff's trial being held in secret because he had cut a deal with the MoM to name names, implicate people who may or may not be DEs. A responsible government wouldn't let a "witchhunt" ensue based on the tales told by a known DE and a traitor to his cause. Lucius was trying to knock the DE rap himself at the time, if I remember correctly. He was probably keeping his head down and not allowed within 10 miles of the Ministry HQ until it was relatively certain he had been imperio'd. He doesn't know Snape was accused or how he got out of it, or if he does, he thinks Snape did a fast-and-slick like he himself did.
If Snape's still a DE, then I have lost faith in humanity– and JKR as a writer– for stereotyping.

EDIT: P.S. Lucy: change the y to i and add -us: Lucius!! Though Jason Isaacs is luscious, his character's name is Lucius ;)

[harry_sirius]

SNAPE WILL DIE TRYING TO SAVE HARRY :angel:

[Meyka Nonew]

Nah, I don't think so. Polyjuice Potion lasts exactly one hour, for one thing. How can Snape dodge between two identities effectively with those kinds of restrictions?


I think it would be very easy. All Snape would need to do is have a bottle holding a ready-made amount of the PolyJuice Potion (with part of Crouch Jr. also) whenever he is with the Death Eaters for extended periods of time. How long does it take for someone to drink the potion? Crouch Jr. was able to pull it off for some time. If he comes back to the Order still looking like Barty, they will presumably be imformed that it is Snape and not the dead Crouch Jr.

As much as I like this theory, I admit I have seen no substantial evidence prove it.

I don't see why it has to be common knowledge that Snape was a DE. It doesn't become common knowledge that there were Dementors in Little Whinging. I can see Karkaroff's trial being held in secret because he had cut a deal with the MoM to name names, implicate people who may or may not be DEs. A responsible government wouldn't let a "witchhunt" ensue based on the tales told by a known DE and a traitor to his cause. Lucius was trying to knock the DE rap himself at the time, if I remember correctly. He was probably keeping his head down and not allowed within 10 miles of the Ministry HQ until it was relatively certain he had been imperio'd. He doesn't know Snape was accused or how he got out of it, or if he does, he thinks Snape did a fast-and-slick like he himself did


I think this is a good point, so I may have to revise my views. :tu:

However, there is also the fact that Snape was trying to prevent Quirrel/Voldmort from gaining the Sorcerer's Stone, and thus Voldmort would likely know that. Now, it is true that Voldmort may have believed that Snape didn't know Quirrel wanted the Stone to bring the Dark Lord back to life.

Come to think of it, how could Snape know? Legilimency? Or did he not know?

But then, why didn't Voldemort just recruit Snape then, it would have made it a LOT easier to get to the Stone. Would he know of Snape being a spy for Dumbledor at that time? Well, I suppose the fact that he was Potions Master at Hogwarts would give it away.

Of course, in Book 5 we discovered that Voldmort is a superb Legilimens, and Snape is a superb Occlumens. So in other words, Snape can lie to the Dark Lord. It is possible that Snape might have told Voldmort he had been working for him the whole time, trying to gather information from Dumbldore. Voldmort, using Legilimency to test this rather unlikely story, is fooled by Snape's Occlumency and brings him back into the fold. This may be what Snape was doing the night of the Third Task.

I think I just answered some of my questions.

[JadeDragon]

I don't know if anyone has considered it before, but it is possible Snape could play it like he thought Quirrell was acting on his own as regards the PS/SS while he was merely waiting in the wings, as it were, to snatch up the stone himself for LV. Snape's a good liar... he'd be able to come up with something.

[Kalypso]

If Snape's still a DE, then I have lost faith in humanity– and JKR as a writer– for stereotyping.
I don't think Snape is still a Death Eater, I think he is still pretending to be one, to spy for Dumbledore.

Snape's a red herring. Nothing more. The author just wants the readers to be paying attention to him and not the other less noiticable characters. Take the first book. With Harry's suspicions always on snape, the real danger was overlooked.
Perhaps. But I don't think JK would have given him so much time in the books if she didn't intend for him to become a prominent character. I'll be disappointed if we don't see more of Snape, and what he really did that night Voldemort was ressurected.

But Meyka's point about Snape being an Occlumens could explain why Voldemort would accept him again, especially if Voldemort doesn't know Snape is an Occlumens. He seems to think nobody can lie to him without detection (I think I read something like this somewhere, I'll try to find references to back it up later)

One thing I wondered about Snape was that if he is a pure blood, it's likely he'll be related to the other pure blood families. How come we've never heard the name Snape before? Could he be related to the other wizarding families?

Also, as he was a Death Eater, he's probably used the cruciatus curse. We know you have to really want to and enjoy inflicting pain to use it, so does this support the Snape is bad argument? (Not the 'Snape is on Voldy's side' argument, just the 'Deep down Snape is really a git, whatever side he's on' argument.

Also, why did Snape switch sides in the first place?

[JadeDragon]

I don't really think you have to like inflicting pain to use crucio... the DEs can't all be sadists, can they? I think you just have to mean it, knowing what you are doing, and approving of that. Are we really going to trust Bellatrix for info on the cruciatus curse?
I think Snape is a wounded and bitter individual who will probably never get over his problems, but I think he's a good guy deep down. Way deep down. Like he'd be on the side of the good cause, not necessarily the good hero. He hates Harry, and I'll be surprised if he ever lets up on him. I don't think ridiculing Harry makes him evil, just twisted. Maybe that's why he got involved with the DEs in the first place... he's just a little twisted, not a lot :D