M-15 - Anti-Terrorism: Have we gone too far?

[Morgoth]

I have posted this on behalf of NuttyNiffler who was having trouble posting here.

Do you believe the United States Government has gone to far with step to stop terrorism?

Most certainly not! Some liberties must be given up to stop the murder of countless lives. I for one think anti-TIA people are selfish, especially after all the world has gone through because of terrorism. What do you think?Here is the link to the story. (http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/20/terror.tracking/index.html)


What do you think?

[NuttyNiffler]

Lani just approved this exact thread so I guess you guys have to delete the other one and all my other attempts....:sorry:

[Weatherby]

I think it's possibly very dangerous if it interferes with other rights.
If they use information they've gathered in non-terrorist related criminal trials without the usual legal steps it would be wrong. We need to keep our rules in place to ensure everyone gets the same rights.

Whose to say they'll stop once they catch their terrorists?

[WaffenSS]

The only way to stop terrorism is to total annihilate every country that doesn't see the U.S. as the U.S. wants them to see the U.s., and to terminate the bill of rights and declaration of indepence and the constitution.

[lanifiel]

Originally posted by NuttyNiffler (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=440110#post440110))
Lani just approved this exact thread so I guess you guys have to delete the other one and all my other attempts....:sorry:


Hehehe, you should know that there is a mod Que for the KA section Nutty :)

[NuttyNiffler]

:rasp: :D



I don't see how any attempt to save innocent lives can be seen as a bad thing at any cost.

[Master Qui-Gon]

In 9/11 there was about 3000 innocent who died a gruesome death.

However, there has died more than 10,000 innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan, due to actions against terrorism.

So so far, the actions that have been made against terrorism, has been much worse than the terrorist acts itself.

And terrorists can't be fought by bombs. I really don't think people will be kinder to the US if they get their village ruined and their family killed.

[NuttyNiffler]

Good point. But this isn't an offensive tool, its a defensive tool that leads to a peaceful solution that will stop terror before it even happens. The criminals will be tried before a jury and locked up while they spend the rest of their miserable lives in a jail cell feeling shameful because they didn't get to fly a plane into the heart of a building, killing countless people while screaming "ALLAH!"

[Master Qui-Gon]

Personally I wouldn't call bombing a country to shreds neither peaceful nor defensive. It is very few terrorists who have been caught so far. And if I know the US foreign policy right, they will never be tried before a jury, neither will they be locked up.

[go_anna40]

Well, to some point, yes. 'Big' countries have gone way too far with this anti-terrorism stuff.
George Bush [no offence] relied heavily on false information about Iraq's so-called-weapons-of-mass-destruction so that he could strike Iraq and 'disarm' them. Though, I do believe some good has actually come out of the conflict.
In Australia, John Howard [our Prime Minister] has gone so far that he released a package for all families about terrorism and how we can report suspicious doings and to stay calm and all. This package even included a fridge magnet. I mean? What the heck? Fridge magnets? I though of it a waste of money and other valuble resources. They even had TV advertisements about terrorism. I think this just makes the general public more scared and terrorism is so close to their backyard that there is a need to warn everybody.
Even though this is very important and that we all must be aware of such an issue these days...but fridge magents??

[Sherlock Holmes]

Originally posted by Morgoth (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=440080#post440080))

Do you believe the United States Government has gone to far with step to stop terrorism?

What do you think?


Terrorism, by definition, is extremely hard to completely "stop." Especially for an open government/country, as opposed to a police state.

Afghanistan was necessary to the war on terror, I believe. Iraq I am less convinced of, but perhaps that will prove beneficial in time, at least. The problem is that, if your aim is "never again," it's hard to know where to stop with risk analysis. Of all the people that might harm the U.S., which ones can be safely ignored? Which ones need to be taken seriously?

You can bet that if the U.S. government miscalculates and ignores a group that later launches another terrorist strike, they'll be blamed for being too lax, just as today they're being criticized for being too zealous. It's a tough spot to be in.

[bhobrian]

My answer is yes, if you ask me.

I am just a little boy living in Hong Kong. My view point might be very different as i am a Chinese. Actually i am considering starting a topic asking 'views on China' from people in different countries.

Back to this topic,personally, i think the war on Iraq is terriblel. The one on Afghanistan may be reasonale, but the one one iraq, no.

Here is a story from a local radio, and i find it very interesting.(i hope u can understand my English...)
Someone was accused owning a gun(whiich is a series crime here). He denied for 1000s of 1000s of time. However, the police doesn't believe. The police enters the man's house without necessary process of asking permission from the court. The man was seriously injured, dying. Yet, the police finds nothing, NOTHING. The police stationed in the house for months, continue calling the war a war of justice and said they did nothing wrong.

Well, many of you may find this silly, but this is exactly what i think. It is a game on politics. During the cold war, when US was generaly supported in the UN, she started war through UN in Asia(those are not justice, if you ask me).
Now, she lost the support she once had. Then, she pulled the justice looking mask off her face and do whatever she wants without UN.

France was even blamed because of having her own view! That wasn't fair at all! Just imagine in the next election you vote for George W. Bush and was blamed. Is this the thing US proud of? Freedom? Democracy? Liberty?

The 911(that's how we call...i don't know how you guys call this) is really very sad. I almost cried when i watch the towers collapsed, imagining the people inside. But i also feel very sad when i watch the news and heard that there're innocent deaths in Iraq. No offence, but do you think that you should reconsider the whole thing again? Why is there people on earth would sacrifice themselves to kill someone else!?
Then, US did something even more terrible then the attack and trying to be a world police, 'boosing' all over the world.

can that be not 'too far'?

i hope i am not too radical...in fact, most of my friends have the same thought. I hope this voice will be replied by supporters of the wars.

Sorry if you think i insulted your nation.

[Crystal]

I get irrationally annoyed when the American goverment (and some people) talk about terrorism.
It was sparked by the comment soon after September the 11th that "Our children deserve to grow up in a world free from the threat of terrorism"

Excuse me, I DIDN'T??
WHY?
Because I'm not American?
Much of the IRA's funds came from private companies/people in America, My father worked in London, In the area which was most commonly attacked by the IRA. I was terrified EVERY DAY as a child that he would be killed, I was too young to rationalise the risks so I lived in fear thjat my father would be killed.
Thats a horrible thing for any child to experience, but if the American goverment had cared then they would have passed laws against funding terrorism.
But they didn't,

And now they are, in my opinion, going too far the other way.

[Fuchsia]

I think it's possibly very dangerous if it interferes with other rights.
If they use information they've gathered in non-terrorist related criminal trials without the usual legal steps it would be wrong. We need to keep our rules in place to ensure everyone gets the same rights.

Whose to say they'll stop once they catch their terrorists?
I'm with Weatherby on this. They can cry "terrorist" and go after whoever they want.
This has the potential to cause even bigger problems. I don't trust the people in charge and I don't trust this.

I get irrationally annoyed when the American goverment (and some people) talk about terrorism.
Irrational is definitly the right word to have used there. That and the rest of your statement was incredibly hypocritical.

Maybe they *will* have to go far to quash this so it doesn't perpetuate itself further for future generations. I hope they have the sense to regulate this. But they are corrupt so I doubt that.

[Lain]

Personally, as an American, I have to say it went too far. Promoting hate against Arab people, killing innocent bystanders in two wars, having a Department of Homeland Security that believes duct tape and plastic will save us from biological and chemical warfare, and giving up some liberties just to sleep soundly in our beds is somewhat weird and is just a waste of our taxpayers money. Sorry if I acted like I hated America but I do honestly believe in my opinions about our great country.

[Grotto]

Please see my post "Is Guantanomo Bay a concenntration camp"
The answer is sadly Yes. It is a concentration camp just like the ones that Japanese Americans were detained in during world war two, and Jews also. Innocent Japanese American were detains in concentration camps like these. Horrible places of death and despair.

[IrmoPimp]

I think that we have not gone too far in our attempts to stop terrorism. We should have been doing this for a long time. This is not just so we can "sleep soundly in our beds." This is to save innocent lives in America and other countries. It is time for America to police the world. We are in control now.
I would also like to say that Guantanomo Bay is not a concentration camp. These terrorists were convicted of plotting to kill mass numbers of innocent Americans. Now I ask you this, Did the German concentration camps have air conditioning? Heating? Were the Jews given prayer time? I think not. We are not shipping in train loads of Arabs to gas them, we are detaining criminals in a high security prison.

[Grotto]

I thing that there is some flawed logic in your thoughts. These men have not had a fair trial with “due process of law� unless of course I slept in the morning they tried the 800 men who are being held in a concentration camp.

I would urge the US government to get the trial going soon, or any other government (say China) that when you try to talk to them about “Human rights� they will just laugh in your face and just say two words “Guantanomo Bay�.

[IrmoPimp]

These prisoners don't deserve to be treated like other human beings. They have committed one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Just because they did not go through a formal trial does not mean they are wrongly imprisoned. The U.S Government accumalated enough evidence to confirm the assumption that these men are guilty of the crime they are accused of.

[WaffenSS]

There is a big difference between being convicted and proven guilty then being accused of, and they can not be convicted and proven guilty without a fair trial.

I've seen people wrongly imprisoned, so what makes this so different and perfect?

[Grotto]

Originally posted by IrmoPimp (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=446559#post446559))

These prisoners don't deserve to be treated like other human beings. They have committed one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Just because they did not go through a formal trial does not mean they are wrongly imprisoned. The U.S Government accumalated enough evidence to confirm the assumption that these men are guilty of the crime they are accused of.


Your logic is flawed. How can you say ther are guilty when they have not been tried. Is that not an un-american policy. Are you not un-american for saying that. What happened to eh the precious bill of rights. It is people like you which will drag America down to the level of Bin Laden.

[NoOne]

Okie dokie...

America has got this really big problem with, *like* Oppressing other countries and governing them as colonies? Even though, *like* we are supposed to be anti-imperialist. Se la vivre...

We can't stop terrorists untill we kill all the people that we have pissed off...Genocide anyone? Hey, we gave it a shot...Woohoo! Bomb the heck out of a couple of third world countries...And hey! They are gonna let us play in Liberia! If Bush can find it that is...But we will see...He has a few people on his staff that are RE'EL smart...Like they can read and stuff...

Ok, the question...
Yes the government has gone too far...Defense spending is up, human rights are down, my email is being read as we speak by some guy in Washington, and for mentioning the president? Yeah, this board just popped up on the FBI's google search...Kinda extreme yeah? This has been done at several points throughout history...The Red Scare, the Alien and Sedition Acts? Just ways of control...

Stupid, stupid stupid...Hey, who is that at my door?


Good health....

[Grotto]

And while I'm at it, how about the "patriot act" which is similar to what happened in Russia, after the revolution of 1917. If you didn't walk around calling people comrade then your imprisoned because of sedition.

I don't think that people realise that we are in real danger of losing out precious rights if we don't act quickly to stand up for what is right. What Bush and the people in his cabinet are doing is turning the US into a state similar to the old USSR where the KGB came to your door if you spoke against the state. THIS IS A REAL DANGER as Asscroft and his freedom killing cronies smash the bill of rights and take a dump on the constitution. Be a Sheransky and not a comrade. Stand up for what is right, or soon you will not be able to .
Grotto the ancient.

PS Does anyone remember what Senator Joe McCarthy did?

[nightingale]

I suppose that the war in Afghanistan can be justified, but Iraq, I'm not so sure of. First off, no weapons of mass destruction have been found, and now, we also know that what President Bush used false information to support the war against Iraq in the State of the Union address. Granted, the Bush administration is now blaming the scenario on the head of the CIA; however, I believe that they (CIA) are not solely responsible. Also, if Bush was so inclined to go to war with Iraq, he could have done so on the basis of humanitarian grounds, as it is no secret that Sadam Hussein has violated several human rights laws, with the horrific massacres of the Kurds and his own people, just because they opposed him. Plus, going to war with Iraq over weapons of mass destruction and then not finding them does not help the public view in many countries (especially Arab countries), and the government officials announcing that the oil wells were safe when people were dying was a bit ironic. I also wonder why the US did not decide to start their war on terrorism earlier, when their embassies were bombed in Africa, and, instead, waited until the terror hit home. Perhaps, if they had, 9/11 would not have happened.

[Crystal]

Originally posted by Grotto (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=448108#post448108))

PS Does anyone remember what Senator Joe McCarthy did?


Was he the one responsible for the communist witch hunts? Or did he have all the Japanese Americans rounded up and put into concentration camps after pearl harbour?
I don't know much American history from the 20th centuary!

[thethirdman]

Joe McCarthy was the man behind the red scare. He rounded up everyone in Hollywood and elsewhere that had any remote connection to the communist party. He ruined a lot of lives. Lucille Ball was actually brought before the witch hunt pannel. She had once marked the Communist box on a ballot in the 1930s. But she hadn't been involved in the party all. It was a real circus. Some people like Illia Kazan (or however it's spelled) sold out their friends and gave names of Communists they knew. Others lost their jobs to protect their friends.

[Lestrange]

France was even blamed because of having her own view! That wasn't fair at all! Just imagine in the next election you vote for George W. Bush and was blamed. Is this the thing US proud of? Freedom? Democracy? Liberty?

Freedom Fries. :rolleyes: If the government really wanted wanted to make an imprint with the French being 'traitors' then why don't they just give back the Statue of Liberty?

I hate the red/yellow/orange alerts and, like Lain said, them telling us that duct tape and saran wrap will save our lives if there's a chemical attack. And the Iraq war, well, excuse me if I'm wrong (I'm not really that very good with politics/war, etc.), but don't they seem to be a little more concerned for the oil than anything else?

I hope I don't sound like too much of an America hater, because I'm not.

[Elbereth]

Before I speak, I would like to make it known that I am a US citizen and I love my country, even if my views on the war in Iraq are "un-patriotic". I think the US has definitely taken the war on terrorism too far. For one thing, terrorism is not something that is confined to a few countries in the Middle East. Perhaps nobody's ever mentioned to Bush that the most of the terrorist acts against America throughout history were pulled off by Americans. I do not think that a single act of terrorism, even one as horrible as 911, gives a country the right to bomb a country that has no real connection to the act of terrorism (I'm talking about Iraq here). Bush tried to make the war against Iraq part of his war against terrorism, but I see very little connection. Iraq was not behind 911 in any way. No country was for that matter, just some crazy Muslim extremists. I do not think America has the right to push everybody else around, and am ashamed of our countries "you're either with us or against us" attitude.

[Midnightsfire]

Some of you may wish to check out this thread (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9354)

[HeLioS]

I really think that sometimes the American government can go too far and are starting to act before they think. I mean we, the public, probably don't know half of what they aren't telling us and we probably don't know much about what the heck we are talking about. But with the information given to us (assuming it is true, which of course you always have to question no matter what the circumstances) I believe that the American government is getting in over their heads with all of this anti-terrorism stuff. I mean yeah of course destroy all terrorism, but sometimes they seem to be bullying the other countries acting like they are all superior and like we are better than them. Personally I think Bush is an idiot and doesn't know what he is talking about sometimes...and other times he can be quite the genius but now it seems that he's starting to lose that "umph" that he had after 9/11 and he seems to be losing popularity. Just last week I saw on the news that Tony Blair was losing popularity in England, and I think that's starting to happen with president Bush...

[PensieveGazer]

Ow, this is a fun topic of debate! :D

I think anti-terrorism efforts are a necessity in so far as they can effectively prevent attacks. Having said that, though, you know that anti-terrorism efforts have become excessive and even dangerous when they seek to meet their objectives through actively impinging on naturalised citizen's rights. I have two words for everyone, in case they don't already know them (or in case they haven't been mentioned in this thread already :p) : Patriot Acts!!! They're really very frightening, and if your an American who's unaware of them, think of it as a civic duty to become familiarised with them and with what can be done to you under them.

Some people have mentioned the War on Terrorism (not in that term). The name itself is an oxymoron though. Just think about it; how exactly can one fight an indefinable enemy that's scattered around the globe and difficult to trace? You can't! So long as injustice remains, there will always be those willing to fight for a cause, no matter what the obstacles and the means to carry out the retalliation are. Hatred can die down, but it'll never die completely, leaving room for the hatred to fester and just as wickedly be born anew. (Neo-nazis....need I say more?).

So, no matter what the efforts are, I don't in any way shape or form see how stamping out terrorism at its source(s) can ever be accomplished. It's like a virus-- there's no cure, but you can treat the symptoms-- only you can't hurt others in the process and call it effective.

[GSiriusIG]

I am an American and I think I can safely say that Americans tend to overreact to just about everything. Terrorism is just the latest buzzword in the states.
Sure terrorism is a bad thing and wouldn't it be a wonderful world if it was eliminated, but the American government didn't care at all about the thousands of acts of terrorism committed before 9/11. Yeah, 3,000 or so people died on Sept. 11 and that is also a bad thing, but things like that have happened all over the world for years. Where was the coalition then?
"The War on Terrorism" translates directly into the "Fight for more money and votes" for our elected officials. Strangely enough, this doesn't bother me (because I expect it). What really bothers me is how the majority of Americans believe whatever the goverment tells them.
WMD anyone?

[DsX Phoenix]

Originally posted by IrmoPimp (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=446559#post446559))
These prisoners don't deserve to be treated like other human beings. They have committed one of the most terrible crimes anyone can commit. Just because they did not go through a formal trial does not mean they are wrongly imprisoned. The U.S Government accumalated enough evidence to confirm the assumption that these men are guilty of the crime they are accused of.


Didn't you say in the Civil War thread that America should not go against its own policy, even to right a terrible wrong? In that instance you were talking about reimbursing slave owners. Now, you are talking about how we should not have to prove that the people being held in Guantanimo Bay are actually anything even close to a terrorist. I fear people like you 10 times more than any Arab with a pilot's license.


Anyone that gives up liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.

Sorry if the quote is a little wrong, but it gets to the point. Terrorism has existed since man has, and while yes, 3,ooo innocent lives lost is a tragedy, it is not big enough for me to be willing to live in a police state, where the government is the terrorist organization.

[Silvilocks]

It is time for America to police the world. We are in control now.

Do you honestly mean this IrmoPimp? If so, may I point out that is arrogant to the point of being offensive. Is this a new tactic, because I've never seen the American government doing too much "policing" in my part of the world - or not against the IRA anyway.

I don't recall ever having taken part in an election to choose the government of the United States to represent my interests in matters of defence or foreign policy. If such a question ever arose, then with all due respect to the people of America, I'd rather take my chances with the terrorists.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Originally posted by Silvilocks (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=478064#post478064))
Do you honestly mean this IrmoPimp? If so, may I point out that is arrogant to the point of being offensive. Is this a new tactic, because I've never seen the American government doing too much "policing" in my part of the world - or not against the IRA anyway.

I don't recall ever having taken part in an election to choose the government of the United States to represent my interests in matters of defence or foreign policy. If such a question ever arose, then with all due respect to the people of America, I'd rather take my chances with the terrorists.


Many Americans are likewise skeptical of a duty to "police" the world. There's a fuzzy line that may be hard to see sometimes, between acting in legitimate national interest, and policing the world.

[Angora]

First, everything DsX Phoenix and Silvilocks said: word.

Always ask yourself "What am I defending?" and make sure you practice that at home.

There's Guantanamo Bay (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510542002) which I've already talked about in other threads. But equally or even more disturbingly there's this (http://web.amnesty.org/pages/usa-110703-background_1-eng).

One of Bushes latest brainstorms is a Military Order that states that people can be held indefinitely without being charged, and that once they do face trial (and not even a real trial, see the link for more), where they can be sentenced to death, they can't appeal. Here's an excerpt from Amnesty:

Amnesty International believes that the Military Order should be revoked, and that any trial before the military commissions would contravene international standards:

* The commissions will lack independence from the executive. The executive has the power to name who will be tried by the commissions, to appoint or to remove commission members, to pick the panel that will review convictions, and to make the final decision in any case.

* There will be no right of appeal to an independent and impartial court established by law. The commissions can pass death sentences. Under international standards, governments must ensure particular respect for all fair trial rights in capital cases, including the right to appeal.

* The right to counsel of choice and to an effective defence is restricted. Defendants will be provided with military lawyers and would have to pay to retain a civilian lawyer. Among other restrictions, civilian lawyers may not have access to classified information or closed proceedings. In addition, lawyer/client confidentiality is not guaranteed.

* US citizens cannot be subject to the Military Order and will not be tried by military commission, even if accused of the same offence as a foreign national. International law prohibits discrimination on the basis of nationality with regards to fair trial rights. The commissions would allow a lower standard of evidence than is admissible in ordinary courts.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I think this fight against terrorismus is against a shadow than rather real persons.
In all honest its not like we have one enemy. Its just we don't fight the real reason. Its like a doctor who give you painkiller than rather to search after the reason for this pain

[x Natalie x]

I don't think war is the answer, because then more people end up dying. I think that going into war is a little too much.

[auror]

First of all, I want to say that I live in Turkey, a very close region to Iraq war. Turkey has been dealing with terrorism for so many years, and I know what it is to be loosing your relatives or friends to terrorism. When Turkey dealt (and actually still dealing) with terrorist group PKK or its new abbreviation KADEK (Iraq was one of the main countries which helped this terrorist group economically and sheltered them on their land), Turkey lost many innocent civil citizens and our economy went through a crisis because of overspending money for the military. The scenes that these terrorists created were not less painful than those of September 11. The terrorists used to stop cars in the middle of the roads and kill the males in the car in front of their wives and daughters… They killed 1-2 month babies with bullets… When Turkish government caught the head of this terrorist group, Abdullah Öcalan, the attacks got less. But they never stopped! And they will never stop unless those people get proper education…

Why am I explaining all of these? I’m just trying to prove that even if USA catches Bin Laden, nothing will change in long terms. For some time, the attacks won’t happen… But 10 years later, they will start again. There must be ways to stop all these, but killing innocent people is not one of that ways! The war only increases the hatred Arab Muslims have towards USA. Only education and economic help can help to those countries…

Think about it for a minute… You had a family and a job… One night you hear sirens, and then you see fire everywhere and hear terrible explosion sounds… You can’t leave your house for days and there is not enough food… Your children tell you they are hungry, but you can’t give them enough food… You decide to go out and you see all those smokes coming from everywhere…You pass the corner and see your friend’s house was bombed… You go to the hospital and learn that your friend’s family all died… Screamings everywhere… Then you hear the government’s encouragements for you to fight the enemy… The enemy that has killed your friends… What would you do?

If you have a family, you would try to protect them and your hatred would grow towards the enemy…

But if you have nothing to lose… The answer can be something similar to a live-bomb… The people living in poverty and cruelty has only one thing that they can lean on… In Muslim countries, the last hope is Allah… When they have nothing to lose and everything to gain (dying in a war while defending your country sends a person to heaven in Islam belief), you can do terrible things… Only way to stop these is proper education and economic help.

I think USA got too far and they don’t have the right idea. The solution to terrorism is not bombing Iraq! And blaming Muslims and creating a bad stereotype about them won’t help; but it will make everything worse. I think USA has to act to stop terrorism, but their acts mustn’t include any kind of destruction. Everyone should remember that the most dangerous man is the one who has nothing to lose…

[FlyingPhoenix]

Why am I explaining all of these? I’m just trying to prove that even if USA catches Bin Laden, nothing will change in long terms. For some time, the attacks won’t happen

I agree and disagree with you at this point because you're right if the USA catch bin laden this don't change anything but I doubt attacks won't happen its quiet the opposite its more that people are more than ever willing to die for they doing.

I think USA got too far and they don’t have the right idea. The solution to terrorism is not bombing Iraq! And blaming Muslims and creating a bad stereotype about them won’t help; but it will make everything worse. I think USA has to act to stop terrorism, but their acts mustn’t include any kind of destruction. Everyone should remember that the most dangerous man is the one who has nothing to lose…

I understand your point and I agree with you but you said in your example about Turkey that they had to deal with terrorisum because of the PKK. I for once think terrorismus starts where other are feeling unwanted or think the law is unfair or goliath against david situation. This say Turkey did take away important things from the "kurden" thats why terrorismus is happening. If you say the USA is wrong than is Turkey wrong too.

USA has to solve the main problem and this say middle east. Everything, the hate did start in middle east. Thats how I see it. But hey I'm just a little girl who don't understand why people kill each other

[triki1988]

It all started as, "the war against terrorist is on" and it's become, "My neighbor is a foreigner. He is a terrorist. Can I kill him?"

Honestly, I think there is one word for this: Fanatism.

Everything got out of hands.

[haycheng]

I want to ask the question what is terrorism. Is it anyone who is against us? President Bush makes me very afraid by saying "you are either with us or against us." Do we have to go after Frence and Russia too?

I do not mind lose some of my privacy. If they want to tape my phone or interent, go ahead. I have nothing to hide and I wont be embrassed. However, it is a very different story when they can attest people without solid group and do not provide a fair trial. This are very basic human right, especially in a developed country.

The so call war on Terrorism has gone too far. It may be justify to go in Afghanistan. That place is a mess anyway, it longs for someone to give it a fix. However, going into Iraq is a bit far. At the very least, why not wait for the UN approve? US is looked like a arrongant kid who bully other kids now. It make more people hate/dislike us and that only promote terrorism against us. I can not understand the Bush administration at all.

[auror]

I agree and disagree with you at this point because you're right if the USA catch bin laden this don't change anything but I doubt attacks won't happen its quiet the opposite its more that people are more than ever willing to die for they doing.
I see your point but, when the leader of PKK was caught the attacks stopped, especially during his judgment days. I’m not sure if the same will happen, but that was what happened in my country.

I understand your point and I agree with you but you said in your example about Turkey that they had to deal with terrorisum because of the PKK. I for once think terrorismus starts where other are feeling unwanted or think the law is unfair or goliath against david situation. This say Turkey did take away important things from the "kurden" thats why terrorismus is happening. If you say the USA is wrong than is Turkey wrong too.
You know what the problem is; we took nothing away from Kurds. This is the truth! I mean; I don’t care if my friends are Kurds, Armenians, Jews, Christians or Muslims. Personally, the only people I don’t deal with are the ones who are trying to damage the democracy by using religion.

The terrorism happens in Turkey because of the effects of WW1 and the importance of geopolitical location of Turkey. During the times of Ottoman Empire, all these groups lived happily with respect and peace. With imperialism, England and Russia tried to provoke these groups and used them against the Empire. They succeeded their aims in creating chaos during our Independence War and even though there were no differences between a Turk and a Kurd, they told these groups that they’d support the new countries that these groups will form. After the formation of Turkey, everything seemed well for sometime, but then in 1974 PKK formed as a political party during the years of Cyprus War by 6 students. They went to the East of Turkey (where there was poverty during the years of 1974 ) to provoke Kurds, and they were successful to provoke small number of people. When Turkish government detected these acts, the formers escaped to Syria. Because of “water” problems between Turkey, Iraq and Syria; Iraq and Syria started provoking the Kurds (living outside of Turkey) with the help of the PKK formers and they also helped them by supplying guns and places to hide. When the leader of PKK was caught, he told the court that he was regretful of the things he had done. He called all the members to surrender. Do you honestly think Bin Laden would say he is regretful? I think PKK leader’s words show that all terrorism in Turkey comes from provocation. I remember a Kurdish man who tried to commit suicide after an attack in a shopping mall because he felt so bad about these terrorists; he said he was in shame because of all those provocations filled with lies and he was happy and respected in Turkey.

Believe me and ignore the streotypes being a Turkish citizen doesn’t mean you have to be a Turk or a Muslim. (I don’t believe in Islam myself.) All people living in Turkey who respect to our flag and democracy are Turkish citizens.

Nowadays, there are no terrorist attacks. But we know that Talabani and Barzani are supporting and supplying guns, ready to strike at any moment. They provoke the Kurds living in North of Iraq and Syria to attack to East of Turkey. If Turkish army helps to US and British armies, the attacks will start again… They are inevitable. So USA’s actions and their “you are either with us or against us" statement put Turkey in a very difficult situation.

One last point about this is, what Turkey did was different than USA. We fought with terrorism in our country, on our own land, and didn’t bomb living locations. Only people who died were the ones who were armed and didn’t want to surrender. So I think, Turkey was/is right about fighting with terrorism and its way of fighting is also right. USA is right about fighting terrorism, but they chose the wrong way of fighting and went too far! I hope the hatred towards USA doesn’t grow… But I must remind you that many interviews with Iraq citizens show the increased hatred.

[FlyingPhoenix]

You know what the problem is; we took nothing away from Kurds. This is the truth! I mean; I don’t care if my friends are Kurds, Armenians, Jews, Christians or Muslims. Personally, the only people I don’t deal with are the ones who are trying to damage the democracy by using religion.

I agree with you at this point. But you see I have still a but. I do understand your view and I agree with you Turkey had the right to do what they did and I know that being a Turkish citizen doesn’t mean you have to be a Turk or a Muslim. I don't say the PKK has or had any rights to do what they did but there is somehow a reason why so many even in my country are with them. I know its now a time ago as I saw in a magazin how kurds live in Turkey. Thats now what I know please correct me if I'm wrong: Kurds aren't allowed to speak or to learn they own speech, Kurds are avoided, they aren't allowed to live they tradition.

Off course if they did accept all this there diidn't exist any tension between kurds and turks.

I want to ask the question what is terrorism. Is it anyone who is against us? President Bush makes me very afraid by saying "you are either with us or against us." Do we have to go after Frence and Russia too?

Rather we should ask where can be found terroism. In a special country like afghanistan or iraq? Didn't get this people from 9/11 money from rich person? So its far to guess that this people sit in afghanistan, or?

[PrtVeela]

I want to ask the question what is terrorism. Is it anyone who is against us? President Bush makes me very afraid by saying "you are either with us or against us." Do we have to go after Frence and Russia too?

I do not mind lose some of my privacy. If they want to tape my phone or interent, go ahead. I have nothing to hide and I wont be embrassed. However, it is a very different story when they can attest people without solid group and do not provide a fair trial. This are very basic human right, especially in a developed country.

The so call war on Terrorism has gone too far. It may be justify to go in Afghanistan. That place is a mess anyway, it longs for someone to give it a fix. However, going into Iraq is a bit far. At the very least, why not wait for the UN approve? US is looked like a arrongant kid who bully other kids now. It make more people hate/dislike us and that only promote terrorism against us. I can not understand the Bush administration at all.

I agree with you, Bush makes it seem like it is so black and white, but it really isn't "either you are with us or you are against us." Every nation has to think about their own needs, and clearly everyone is against terrorism, but at what price? I think that France and Russia have a different way about fighting terrorism and as long as they are doing it I don't honestly see a problem. Acheiving peace should not be at the coast of our freedoms. (President Kennedy said something like that during the Cuban Missile Crisis and I thought it was pretty relevant today). Now the Bush administration wants to make more ammendements to the Patriot act that take away more of our freedoms. By doing this in essense are not the terroists acheiving their goals?

Exactly the US is made out to be extremly arrogant, after practically disassociating itself with countries that were against us, now they are trying to rebuild the bridges that they burnt in order to get more forces into Iraq.

When will it stop? At what lengths will we go to? Apparently we can attack countries that won't fight back, but when it comes to nations that actually pose a threat i.e. North Korea, we are all about taking the diplomatic road and exhausting all efforts.

[Chrysalis]

I don't know if this is a bit offtopic, but I just want to vent my spleen about it. A year or two ago a new law was passed in the USA called The Hague Invasion Act. I don't know if the Americans on this forum have heard about it, but the gist of it is that if there are American people being tried in the Hague(International Court of Justice I think) then the US govt has the right to invade the Netherlands. The worst part was was that our govt took it lying down! :rasp: :frown: :grumble: :censored:
Anyways, on topic, I think the war on terrorism has gone too far. I heard that even Arabic-looking people are being arrested in the USA?

[auror]

I know its now a time ago as I saw in a magazin how kurds live in Turkey. Thats now what I know please correct me if I'm wrong: Kurds aren't allowed to speak or to learn they own speech, Kurds are avoided, they aren't allowed to live they tradition.
They are allowed to speak and learn whatever language they want. But they can’t have primary schools teaching Kurdish language. Isn’t that like that in US too? Does US have any primary schools teaching Turkish to Turk US citizens? I don’t think so… It doesn’t make sense to me.
Kurds can live the way they want, if they don’t damage the democracy. In Lausanne Treaty of Peace (signed at July 24th of 1923) these are all stated. Turkey is a unitary country formed of people with different religion, race and ethic. By giving special treatments to a group of people will damage this system. Everyone is treated equally under the same laws. I don’t know what you saw in that magazine; but even if they lived under bad conditions, it is not because of being a Kurd. In Turkey, many people live in very bad conditions because of our disastrous economy. This problem about poverty mustn’t be categorized as Kurds, Turks, etc. It is a problem that belongs to whole of Turkey, not only one ethic group. I hope, what I’m trying to explain makes sense… Sorry for being off the topic.

Back to the main topic… I told several times that in my opinion, US crossed the lines too much (not only by Iraq war). The stereotyping increased madly. If innocent people get treated as terrorists, they soon can turn into real terrorists. They can think like “What’s the point of being good, if everyone thinks I’m bad?”
Bush government’s actions seem to save the day, but the treat of the future is being neglected. Don’t forget that about 15 years ago US was the one who supported Saddam (sp?) and supplied weapons to him… :wow:

[FlyingPhoenix]

Back to the main topic… I told several times that in my opinion, US crossed the lines too much (not only by Iraq war). The stereotyping increased madly. If innocent people get treated as terrorists, they soon can turn into real terrorists. They can think like “What’s the point of being good, if everyone thinks I’m bad?”
Bush government’s actions seem to save the day, but the treat of the future is being neglected. Don’t forget that about 15 years ago US was the one who supported Saddam (sp?) and supplied weapons to him…

Not only Saddam they did pay Bin laden, too. Thats the problem thats what left from the cold war. The USA did cross the line as they did attack Iraq without a resolution of the UN. Till now they don't have proofs for bioloical weapons to this comes they did overrule the UN. Now it don't work like they wished. It was I believe one year ago as Bush stated "you are either with us or against us." This said that half europe was against the US but now suddenly they are again on they side. I wonder does Bush say this only if he don't need anybody? Or because He know he is right? I guess he say this things because they didn't need europe only UK.
But now they need europe because now does that happen what so many people did predict. In Iraq is chaos.
_________________________
They are allowed to speak and learn whatever language they want. But they can’t have primary schools teaching Kurdish language. Isn’t that like that in US too? Does US have any primary schools teaching Turkish to Turk US citizens? I don’t think so… It doesn’t make sense to me.

This make be true about the US but in my country you can learn Turkish in schoollesson. And lessons about the Islam is alowed, too.
About the US I believe you can learn spain in classes, hispanios are a minority in US, or?

[Angora]

I'm a little bit ignorant about the situation with the Kurds. I know in Canada we have a strong French population (that is, they speak French, they don't hail from France) and it's provided in the charter that they can send their children to French schools (and that French schools will be made available for that purpose) if they want to. I don't know if something like that would work in Turkey or not?

[Doggy]

I don't really know much on the topic, but I'd just throw in my humble opinion anyway. It feels like the US started caring about "freeing the world from terrorism" after the US got attacked. Before that it seemed to me (but as I said, I may be wrong) that the US wasn't that interested. But as soon as the whole Twin Towers thing happened, they started medling all over the world.

Of course I understand that they got more concerned when their own country was attacked, if mine was I wouldn't care two cents about any other country being attacked or not and then realise the horrors of terrorism, but still...

As I said, this all is probably based on mistakes, so pardon me if that's the case... :blush:

[Silvilocks]

One of Bushes latest brainstorms is a Military Order that states that people can be held indefinitely without being charged, and that once they do face trial (and not even a real trial, see the link for more), where they can be sentenced to death, they can't appeal.
This Order could have gone through without much change under Hitler and the Nazis, or under Communism at its height. I'm also pretty sure Saddam would have approved of it. In with all the talk of weapons of mass destruction and war on terrorism, wasn't there mention of overthrowing "tyrannical dictators and their followers"? I don't think the USA really needed to go to Iraq if that's what they were looking for.

I've grown up with terrorism, and personally I'm finding a lot of the actions of the US government today to be more frightening than the actions of terrorists. I think the plot's been lost somewhere down the line. :huh:

[Jenni The Hurja]

Yes, I definitely do think that it has gone too far. How can you honestly believe that if you bomb a terrorist he and his fellow citizens will start to like you better? You have to go to the root of the problem and think about the reason why do the terrorists feel such hate towards you, and then proceed from there.

I watched this special episode of The West Wing after the attacks, and there were people explaining to the children why did these horrible things happen. They told them that the sole reason why the terrorists hated the US so much was that they didn't know what the US was really like. Well sure, that probably was one of the reasons but definitely not the only one. If that's what you think there's no way you'll ever get rid off terrorists. (And let me just add that no, I don't think that the reasons justified the actions taken, off course I don't. Nor do I think that the war that kills even more civilians in Iraq is just.)

I just have to say that I'm quite frankly stunned about small amount of discussion about the Guantanamo Bay on these boards. Here the situation of the prisoners is on the papers all the time. Things like they don't get any trials, aren't even accused of anything and have no idea when will they or will they ever get to go home. So the US arrests people it suspects of terrorism (or something of the sort) and takes them to this concentration camp where they'll have no hope. The US pays no attention to the human rights and I'm quite sure that I heard from somewhere that the US actually keeps them in Guantanamo Bay instead of the US because the US laws don't apply to them there? Does anyone know if this is the case?

The discussion someone started about the situation in Guantanamo Bay got answers like, "what? I haven't heard anything about this." - Amazing.

I also saw this document about the war in Afghanistan were there was this specific man the troops suspected of hiding guns in his house. He said he didn't, the troops busted his house and found nothing. They put a bag on his head and decided to send him in Guantanamo anyway. Off course this was just one example but his face has haunted me ever since.

I'm too tired to say anything about the Patriot Act, except that yes it's terrifying and I'm happy that I live in a free country.

I Hope you understood, english isn't my mother tongue.

[bungo mungo]

HAHAHA!! I couldn't stop laughing at all the references to Guantanamo Bay....

The irony is that one of the prisoners there was PLEADING to stay there, in stead of being sent to Russia to face his peers there....it was in the BBC sometime ago...

If the conditions are soooo bad there, why isn't the Red Cross or other international organizations telling us that it is inhumane and goes against the conducts of war?

NOt a fan of the patriot act...like Jenni said, too much to say.

What bothes me about this whole post 9/11 US...is we are overly sensitive....about EVERYTHING!

[Silvilocks]

HAHAHA!! I couldn't stop laughing at all the references to Guantanamo Bay....

The irony is that one of the prisoners there was PLEADING to stay there, in stead of being sent to Russia to face his peers there....it was in the BBC sometime ago...

If the conditions are soooo bad there, why isn't the Red Cross or other international organizations telling us that it is inhumane and goes against the conducts of war?

NOt a fan of the patriot act...like Jenni said, too much to say.

What bothes me about this whole post 9/11 US...is we are overly sensitive....about EVERYTHING!
Yes...very amusing :huh:

An article describing the attitude and actions of the Red Cross can be found here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2671287.stm). The link Angora gave earlier also leads to details of the work Amnesty International are doing to try and get something done about Guantanamo Bay. I think you'll find there are many international organizations reporting on this, but an awful lot of people don't want to be told.

The treatment of the captives is definately going too far. Terrorism doesn't need to be about bombs and killing people, all that's necessary is to induce a feeling of terror in others. This sound like the actions of anyone we know?

[thinkpink38]

I posted this on a thread I started about the Patriot Act, which got closed. I think that, to answer your question Morgoth, when it comes to the way the United States government has gone into action in ways is, ofcourse, necessary. But, there are things, such as the Patriot Act, which I don't agree with. Although the government is trying to put a stop to the acts of terriorists before they begin, you must keep in mind that they are not taking into consideration the freedom of an individual.
Cell phones, pay phones, e-mail, instant messaging, and BlackBerry wireless e-mail devices are all requirements that are significant barriers in monitoring an individual’s communications. Having access to these personal lay abouts (which the Act is allowed) are giving the person no freedom of choice, they are being monitered without knowledge.Furthermore, the patriot act puts many restrictions to a person. The FISA authority contains no provisions, meaning, there is no law enforcements ascerted on it. Through the Patriot Act the government can learn a tremendous amount about a perosn by the transactional records. With the ability to keep these records the potential for abuse, and for invasion of privacy is obviously high.

So, yeah I think the government is going to far with the step to stop terrorism. The Patriot Act was established to track terrorists, all residents, not only the terrorists, are affected as well.

[Tane]

After what Etta might have just done in Spain, no I do not think the governments have gone to far to combat terrorism. Targeting four commuter trains in Spain and killing over 124 people is just not acceptable and I believe the governments need to do more to tackle these problems not less. I come from a city that had its heart ripped out by a terrorist attack and I was lucky.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Its not really clear if it was the ETA. More likely the el Qaeda its how they bomb but not really the ETA. They call 30 minutes before they bomb and not normal people, rather politican, police and army.

[Morgoth]

Its not really clear if it was the ETA. More likely the el Qaeda its how they bomb but not really the ETA. They call 30 minutes before they bomb and not normal people, rather politican, police and army.

If it was ETA, then it's a significant increase in their activities in Spain, considering they've killed 800 people in 30 years of terrorism, then to kill nearly 200 in one event is truly frightning for them. Some analysts are saying that if it was ETA then it shows that 9/11 has given terrorists the world over more incentive to perform shock attacks without warning.

Of course if it was Al-Qaeda then you have a serious problem because it will once again prove that the War on Terrorism has only served to further the cause of these people against the West.

Either way, it's a tragedy.

[Tane]

Well yes I did think about Al-Qaeda but they have already isolated what type of bomb was used and it has all the trademarks of ETA apparently. It just happens to coincide with the Spanish elections so that is why I leaned towards ETA due to the timing.

I just hate all this fighting that is going on at the moment.

[Yadiami]

The King Juan Carlos and Jose María Aznar (the Spanish President) haven't mentioned ETA, they had spoken of terrorism.
This morning, it was supposed ETA were the culprits, though I didn't want to believe it. It's too big for them, their biggest killed was in 1983, with 21 civils. I was too young to remember it, but it has always been mentioned as a terrible day for Spain.

Past years they only tried to kill policemen and militars. Usually, they phoned a newspaper, so civils could leave the area and the victims would be policemen only; most of the times, at least. And if they purposely attemped against civils, they never got to kill more than six or eight.

Then again, two members of ETA were caught a couple of weeks ago with more than 500 kilos of dinamite and they had a similar plan as today's to attack on Christams Eve.

We've have elections on Sunday and an attack now is something ETA has done before.

The radio is saying they found a wagon with some detonators and a tape with Coranic verses. That's something way strange for an ETA terrorist. That's why the journalists are being more conscious and they've stopped blaming ETA directly.

This morning one ETA's colleague (I can't think of a better word) said he didn't believe the ETA did it. But that man is an assasin and a lier, so nobody believes him.
And if it's true ETA isn't the culprit, they should say it now.

They've just said in the radio that Reuters said that Al-Qaeda has claimed to be the autor. I don't know, the journalist are very cautious.

I've felt like crying the all day. When I woke up I hear the news they didn't have TV images. They started saying there were 20 deads, then they were rising until those 173. Now there are 200 and 600 injureds.
Those people were just workers and students.

I don't know what to hope for. I don't want the ETA to be culprits because it would change all they have done for the last years. But certaintly I don't want Al-Qaeda to come and kill here, we already have problems of our own.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Some analysts are saying that if it was ETA then it shows that 9/11 has given terrorists the world over more incentive to perform shock attacks without warning.
But than again they react a bit late. 9/11 how strange it sounds is 2 years ago and the ETA did through this two years still attack spain. All I know they kept telling they'll attack before they did in the end attack. But this was unwarned.

Of course if it was Al-Qaeda then you have a serious problem because it will once again prove that the War on Terrorism has only served to further the cause of these people against the West.

Thats the point we are probably further away from the end of Terrorism as before the 9/11. Its rather that there might be more attacks against the West.
Its frighten and terrible if I think this possible could very well exist.

I've felt like crying the all day. When I woke up I hear the news they didn't have TV images. They started saying there were 20 deads, then they were rising until those 173. Now there are 200 and 600 injureds.Those people were just workers and students.

Its for spain like 9/11 at least this is what they keep telling here in Germany. I - well had tears in my eye's as read those all and I'm normally not like that.

[Tane]

Then what can be done against this type of terror? You fight them and they come back stronger. You don't fight them and they win and that is if you find out who they are in first place.

I feel for the people of Spain tonight.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Then what can be done against this type of terror? You fight them and they come back stronger. You don't fight them and they win and that is if you find out who they are in first place.

The point is why are they doing this? Its because we have in our world a growing seperating between rich(west) and poor(east). Thats the reason why and the seperation should be stopped.

[Tane]

The point is why are they doing this? Its because we have in our world a growing seperating between rich(west) and poor(east). Thats the reason why and the seperation should be stopped.

I see that point and agree, it is hard to understand and sometimes stomach knowing that there are people out there that can not even feed themselves properly because of the state of there economy or climate. Yet on the other side there are those that gauge themselves and have way too much that it spoils. Things need to change in our society and one such thing could be to not take advantage of the east and give them the wages they deserve for manufacturing goods to the west.

Then again why target Spain other than for their support against terrorism when they sided Britain and America. The more I think about it the more I weaver towards Al-Qaeda, it is the kind of thing they would do and in this case they have another terrorist group for them to place the blame onto.

[JofpGallagher]

The King Juan Carlos and Jose María Aznar (the Spanish President) haven't mentioned ETA, they had spoken of terrorism.
This morning, it was supposed ETA were the culprits, though I didn't want to believe it. It's too big for them, their biggest killed was in 1983, with 21 civils. I was too young to remember it, but it has always been mentioned as a terrible day for Spain.

Past years they only tried to kill policemen and militars. Usually, they phoned a newspaper, so civils could leave the area and the victims would be policemen only; most of the times, at least. And if they purposely attemped against civils, they never got to kill more than six or eight.

Then again, two members of ETA were caught a couple of weeks ago with more than 500 kilos of dinamite and they had a similar plan as today's to attack on Christams Eve.

We've have elections on Sunday and an attack now is something ETA has done before.

The radio is saying they found a wagon with some detonators and a tape with Coranic verses. That's something way strange for an ETA terrorist. That's why the journalists are being more conscious and they've stopped blaming ETA directly.

This morning one ETA's colleague (I can't think of a better word) said he didn't believe the ETA did it. But that man is an assasin and a lier, so nobody believes him.
And if it's true ETA isn't the culprit, they should say it now.

They've just said in the radio that Reuters said that Al-Qaeda has claimed to be the autor. I don't know, the journalist are very cautious.

I've felt like crying the all day. When I woke up I hear the news they didn't have TV images. They started saying there were 20 deads, then they were rising until those 173. Now there are 200 and 600 injureds.
Those people were just workers and students.

I don't know what to hope for. I don't want the ETA to be culprits because it would change all they have done for the last years. But certaintly I don't want Al-Qaeda to come and kill here, we already have problems of our own.

I thought of you and some other friends I have in Spain immediately the news appear. It hurts me seeing this type of terrorist acts and so close to you and beloved country. I don’t care too much who did it though I agree with you that it’s not an ETA style.
I heard Aznar speech this morning, and he didn’t mention a terrorist group. Good speech for these terrible moments.

"Mi más profunda solidaridad con el pueblo Español y que encuentren las fuerzas necesarias para superar este terrible evento."

[deathwish]

I have supported all of the US Gov. actions on the war on terror.
Afganistan got them on the run, while Iraq was a long term battle that was meant to stop any possible WMD building. As Iraq still had the infrastructure to build weapons. And by invading Iraq we put pressure on Iran, where we now have troops in two countries that border it.

So far after 9/11, there are no more highlevel attacks a few jewish churches, some low level carbombings, and all outside the Western World. Which means that the US Gov. is keeping us safe like they are meant to. I support G.W.Bush, and the troops on this much needed war on terror, 9/11 was a wake up call, that we will not forget anytime soon

[Midnightsfire]

As someone else put it:

"You guys may not have given much thought terrorism until 3 or 4 years ago but spare a thought for those who have been under constant threat of terrorism.
Be that The whole Israel/Palestine situation, the English and hte IRA,the Irish and the IRA, and seeing as its fairly pertinent, ETA and the Spanish.


By the way, Go USA for funding many of those!"

Just to toss that in the pot.

[Wab]

They are allowed to speak and learn whatever language they want. But they can’t have primary schools teaching Kurdish language. Isn’t that like that in US too? Does US have any primary schools teaching Turkish to Turk US citizens?

The difference is the Turk is coming to a country where Turkish isn't the traditional language. In the Kurdish region of Turkey (and Iraq and Iran) Kurdish is the traditional language and an important part of culture and indentity.

That said Kurdish shouldn't be taught to the exclusion of Turkish but both sshoud be studied as in Wales where Welsh and ENglish are taught.

[HPviolinist85]

I think that whether we like it or not, there will always be terrorism. I think Bush opened a huge can of worms that is going to be hard to defeat and gain controll over. He says it's for the cause of "World Peace", but that is seriously a HUGE feat that could take hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of years. It is not a simple process where we just drop the bomb, and they do what we say.
As for World Peace, people will always argue and have different viewpoints. People are brought up differently and have different cultures, religions, values. Though terrorism SUCKS, it can't be stopped. We are going to be spending A LOT of money on it. Money we can't afford, and Mr. Bush is cutting many of our many needed social programs for it.
There are many problems in the world, and there will always be problems. It is a fact of life. I hate to sound so **** pessimistic, but it's the truth and personally, I feel like this war is just creating more problems.
Let me just remind everyone about how this war got started...
On September 11th 2001, people HIJACKED planes. There were no bombs involved (or found in Iraq as of now). Terrorists got on AMERICAN planes with KNIVES. I don't understand why the terrorists needed Saddam Hussein's support for that. I think Osoma can afford to purchase a few knives and plane tickets.
I know I will get yelled at and people will argue with me over this, but I personally think Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to start a war on Iraq, who doesn't have ANYTHING to do with Saddam OR Iraq. This is just like a high school student saying "she stole my prom date, so I'm going to beat the **** out of her friend who encouraged her" (but didn't do it herself) I think we should give punishment to where it is due and ONLY where it is due...

In conclusion, I think Americans should look at the facts and analyze the situations for themselves.

[Masterfroggy]

I have personally read and followed many news stories about and involving terrorism, so I am slightly cynical as to the claims and ideals behind most act of Terrorism, the majority of people ascribe to the theory that terrorist want, is what they claim they want, be it a home land, a separation of government and church, a place to worship without persecution. Political oppression, religious intolerance and divine revelation are a few of the most common reasons cited by terrorist as justifications for their attacks.


Terrorists often believe that they have exhausted all attempts at legitimate religious or political change and have no other option to bring recognition to their cause and change to the society they live in. However, terrorists intentionally target civilians in order to gain publicity.

But as proved by the bombing in recent days, all terrorist really want is Power and control, they want the whip hand, they want to be the persons to say yes or no.

ETA don’t want the Freedom for their people, they (ETA) want to be the people in control of their people, and control will bring wealth and power, and all the trappings that goes with that, High ideals aside, power is all they want, no one not even Osama bin Laden and the people behind him claim they are doing this for the down trodden people.

If ETA were to follow the wishes of the people, they would have disbanded 10 years ago and all branches of the IRA UDLA etc would have finished with the violence years ago.

Now, were the terrorist that planted the bombs (any bombs in fact ) to stop today, there would just be some other group impatient for their share of the Power to replace them, pleases don’t forget they do the bombing only for the publicity, whilst behind the scenes, everyday these groups carry out mini act of terror, robbing, muggings, intimidation, blackmail, beating, killings, drug dealing, prostitution, illegal drinking dens, all are used to fund their operations and most of the leaders of such groups have more money than we can ever hope to see in our working life (millions of pounds)
A lot of the money gained by such people will never see the light of day, it’s salted away by the leaders. Internationally these people control a massive amount of the everyday crimes carried out in their particular country.

If ETA were to gain all of its supposed aims and managed to become a separate country it would soon find itself beset by a new group of terrorist, with new claims and purported desires, and the cycle would repeat itself all over again, the reason, because it would prove to every petty bandit that killing lots of innocents will get them power and control, and that’s the real reason behind it all.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I like to point out what had happened the past 2 years and what the Anti-Terrorism has done so far or better the result today.
Its now just 13 minutes ago europe was for at least one minute silent.

9. 11. 2001
Attack against New York and Washington DC about 3000 people die in the ruins of the World Trade Center.

4. 11. 2002
Attack Djerba a fueltruck drive into a Synagoge. 21 people die.

10. 12. 2002
Attack in Bali. Two carbombs explode 202 people die.

11. 16/20. 2003
Attack in Istanbul. Bombs exploding by two Synagoge, the britian consulate, and the HSBC Bank. 63 people die

3. 11. 2004
Attack in Madrid. Ten bombs explode in trains 200 people die, 1500 are injured.

Now tell me what good thing did this whole Anti-Terrorism thing? I fail to see it since the attacks didn't stop. We are there where we started in year 2001

[Tane]

I like to point out what had happened the past 2 years and what the Anti-Terrorism has done so far or better the result today.
Its now just 13 minutes ago europe was for at least one minute silent.

9. 11. 2001
Attack against New York and Washington DC about 3000 people die in the ruins of the World Trade Center.

4. 11. 2002
Attack Djerba a fueltruck drive into a Synagoge. 21 people die.

10. 12. 2002
Attack in Bali. Two carbombs explode 202 people die.

11. 16/20. 2003
Attack in Istanbul. Bombs exploding by two Synagoge, the britian consulate, and the HSBC Bank. 63 people die

3. 11. 2004
Attack in Madrid. Ten bombs explode in trains 200 people die, 1500 are injured.

Now tell me what good thing did this whole Anti-Terrorism thing? I fail to see it since the attacks didn't stop. We are there where we started in year 2001

Then what do the politicians do, give the terrorists what they want and make them believe that they can solve all there problems with violence. I mean next time they want something and we say no, they will just resort to the same tactics again and that is wrong. They do not feel remorse or guilt over what they do to get what they want. It is not the same as someone who does feel bad for achieving something in this mannerism, most people will never resort to tactics like that again but these people will. There would need to be some outlined political law that both sides agree on for this war to stop and until that happens it will never cease.

[Wab]

What differentiates AQ from other terrorist groups in the modern era (including IRA, ETA, Irgun, ANC, Fretelin, PLO, Hizballah to name a few) is that it doesn't have a political arm to negotiate with.

It has no real ideology and no clear aims but says what people want to hear in order to gain their support.

The only way to stop it is to address the real grievances expressed by the people it attracts but few world leaders have the guts to let themselves be seen as negotiating with terrorists.

Yet talking with the ANC brought peace to South Africa, negotiations with Sinn Fein eventually brought a semi-workable solution to Northern Ireland.

[Angora]

Yeah. I think it's bad policy to ignore people's demands just because they're terrorists, the same way I think it's bad policy to give into people's demands just because they're terrorists. If they're asking for something reasonable (which... not all that often, but sometimes they are) then you should really consider the request on it's own merrits. If you can get to the root of the problem and figure out what's driving people to join terrorist cells (join them, not lead them) and address those issues, I think you'll have a lot more luck with it.

I tend to think the people who lead those movements are the selfish, power-hungry type who actually hate the people they're claiming to represent. But I tend to think the people who follow have all kinds of anxieties about the world that don't get directly addressed. A big one being a fear of being in the minority, which most people experience at some point in some way (IMO), but which isn't usually spoken about openly.

So, while I don't think terrorism is a good way to express one's concerns, I don't think we'll get anywhere with combatting terrorism is we aren't at least mindful of those concerns, whatever they are.

[Midnightsfire]

For Hollywoodbob and anyone else keeping track of the What's so great aabout America thread.

Your post here (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=873769&postcount=896) about terrorism I suspect may have went above a few heads. I think that the first paragraph here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2098718/) might help with understanding your post. :)

[HollywoodBob]

Exactly. Terrorism is merely the method used by these "terrorist" groups. A war on terror is pointless, there will alway be ways to promote fear, our government exploited the fear of Al Qaeda to gain support for it's incursion into Iraq, essentially becoming "terrorists" after a fashion.

The threat isn't from terrorism. It's from extremist groups that we call terrorists. Technically any action that provokes fear so large that people change the way they live is terrorism.

As for my earlier post, I was reffering to the probability of terrorist attacks on individuals. Even after the incidents of the last few years, the probability of being involved in a terrorist attack are still in the neighborhood of 1 in 300Million. There is more likely a chance that you'll get killed by a lightning strike than a terrorist attack, but we don't see government funded wars on lightning storms. We've never been advised to put lightning rods on our houses so that hardware store will have a run on metal rods and copperwire, like we saw with plastic wrap and duct tape. I don't recall ever hearing about people buying gas maskes to prevent getting the flu.

Personally, I don't fear anything that would do harm to me. Not terrorists, not muggers, not west nile or the ebola virus. There's no point in fearing something that you can't predict, to me the changes to our life that that level of fear create are unacceptable and very much unwanted.

-HollywoodBob

[Tane]

Chechen rebels have just killed the Chechen president Akhmad Kadyrov in a bomb blast on the Victory Day celebration.

http://channels.aolsvc.co.uk/news/article.adp?id=20040509062709990001

There is fear now that a power vacuum will be set up as there is no successor to the presidency in Chechen. That is appauling news and just as the country was starting to put one foot on the ground again.

[Jenni The Hurja]

Putin's policy regarding Chechnya seems to be every bit as effective as ever. The situation hasn't gotten any better since 1999. Odds are Kreml will set Ramzan Kadyrov as his fathers successor. :whistle:

[Midnightsfire]

Your papers, please (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/21/scotus.police.id/)

The Supreme Court has again given police greater power to stop and question suspects, ruling Monday that a Nevada cowboy could not refuse to give his name to officers who tried to question him along a roadside. The case was the fifth victory for law enforcement this term in cases involving search and seizure by law enforcement.

The narrow 5-4 ruling was seen as a defeat for privacy advocates.

Larry "Dudley" Hiibel, the Nevada rancher at the center of the case, had become a minor celebrity for those who believed he was standing up for his constitutional rights.

He was arrested after he told a deputy that he didn't have to reveal his name or show an ID during an encounter on a rural road in 2000. Hiibel was prosecuted, based on his silence and fined $250. The Nevada Supreme Court sided with police on a 4-3 vote.

In its ruling announced Monday, the justices upheld Hiibel's misdemeanor conviction. Writing for the majority, Justice Anthony Kennedy said, "Asking questions is an essential part of police investigation. In the ordinary sense a police officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Fourth Amendment."

Kennedy noted that having identification has benefits to both police and suspect. "Knowledge of identity may inform an officer that a suspect is wanted of another offense, or has a record of violence or mental disorder," he wrote. "On the other hand, knowing identity may help clear a suspect and allow the police to concentrate their efforts elsewhere."

In a dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens said that because Hiibel was the target of a police investigation, he "acted well within his rights when he opted to stand mute."

Stevens said, "There is no reason why the subject of police interrogation based on mere suspicion, rather than probable cause, should have any lesser protection."

Monday's ruling was a follow up to a 1968 decision that said police may briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information, according to a report from The Associated Press. Justices said that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops after the 1968 ruling, people must answer questions about their identities.

Justices had been asked to rule that forcing someone to give police their name violated a person's Fourth Amendment protection from unreasonable searches and the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

The court in previous weeks ruled for police in four other search and seizure cases that tested the limits of police intrusions and privacy rights.

In the other cases the court:

Allowed police to kick down a suspect's door after only 15 seconds if they believed the suspect was dangerous, or that evidence could be destroyed.
Upheld "informational roadblocks" where officers seek the public's help to solve crimes. A man was arrested at such a stop for driving erratically.
Permitted drugs found in a suspect's car to be used as evidence after federal agents dismantled his car at a border checkpoint.
Ruled lawful a suspect's arrest next to his vehicle after drugs were found inside the car. The court said it was not always necessary for the suspect to be inside his car to have evidence used against him.
Some legal analysts say these cases could have broad implications for law enforcement and the public.

"We have this idealistic notion in this country that we can live in kind of splendid anonymity, we can walk around and be left alone," said Edward Lazarus, a former Supreme Court clerk and author of a book on the justices. "And this question really raises, in the post-9/11 era, the issue of whether that's really true anymore."

According to an AP report, justices were told that 20 states have similar laws to the Nevada statute upheld by the high court: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont and Wisconsin.

The case is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the state of Nevada, 03-5554.


------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm uncertain where I stand on this... Perhaps a good ole argumant brewing here may help me... :evil:


Of course, something like this may help as well:


Random Searches (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/terror/main621730.shtml)?


"From Nazi Germany, to Stalinist Russia, to South Africa under apartheid, the phrase: 'Your papers, please' is alien to a free society," said John Reinstein, ACLU-Massachusetts legal director, in a statement.


----------------------------------------------------------


:sigh:

[CicadaInvasion]

The United States must be careful not to become hypocrites. Supposedly the Constitution is about fairness and equal protection under the law. This should apply to everyone on earth, with or without citizenship papers...they are inalienable rights...the Constittution is colorblind and doesn't discriminate...the gov. shouldn't either.

[Tane]

I think when terrorists take over 200 children hostage in a school and threaten to blow them up with the strapped explosives around the terrorist’s waist then I really do think more needs to be done. This is really difficult I mean what a cowardly act to take children hostage this way, there currently in talks with the terrorists and they have let go of the 5 to 10 year olds but there keeping the secondary school children. To be honest I would rather see a deal set up than refuse the wishes of terrorists in the situation but at the same time you really do not want to give in to terrorists. No terrorist in my eyes has the right to use children to get what they want; children are neutral in all of this and it is distressing to see these tactics being implamented.

[Kirsten]

Who would want to make that decision? Give in to the terrorists and know that your country has just made itself vulnerable to terrorist blackmail forever, or refuse to cooperate and know you're sentencing innocent people to death. Whatever is done will be criticised.

[Wab]

I'd say this is too far: "It was late last year that a fragile Maher Arar returned home from Syria. Syria is a known abuser of human rights and certainly not a close ally of America. However, it was the Americans who sent him there. He'd been subject to one of the most secretive practices used by the United States in its war on terror. It's called rendition, when a suspect is picked up and without any legal process rendered to another country."

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/trans.php3?dte=2004-09-01&title=Maher+Arar-

[Pilum]

Gunfire and explosions heard near the school according to the Beeb. God I hope that doesn't mean..... Putin will start bombing at the border and won't stop till he reaches Georgia if that's the case....

Should just slot the lot of 'em, frankly. If t comes to it, pull the troops back, evacuate all Russian citizens and then turn what's left into radioactive slag. One advantage for Russia, it's a lot easier when you just don't give a flying you-know-what for world opinion.

[Tane]

Gunfire and explosions heard near the school according to the Beeb. God I hope that doesn't mean..... Putin will start bombing at the border and won't stop till he reaches Georgia if that's the case....

Should just slot the lot of 'em, frankly. If t comes to it, pull the troops back, evacuate all Russian citizens and then turn what's left into radioactive slag. One advantage for Russia, it's a lot easier when you just don't give a flying you-know-what for world opinion.No but they have knocked out the windows and placed the children in the firing line in front of the windows.

I'm finding it difficult not to get angry over this. This is a stand off, children and 10 years of trying to aim for peace will be completely abolished if this all goes wrong. Force is not an option apparently from the Kremlin.

What is the world coming to when people use children in this way to get what they want. :sad:

Now do parents have to be afraid of there children at school being caught up in terrorism across the world.

[Drusilla]

Pilum, haven't you heard of organisations that use child soldiers? The LTTE in Sri Lanka does it-that's one organisation that I know of, and I read somewhere that Shining Path had child soldiers too.Children have always been caught up in terrorism wherever it happens, and it's sad but true. It's heartbreaking to hear about children who lose their entire families to violence and then end up believing violence is the only way out.
In response to the topic of this thread, I'd say: YES. I don't know if by "we" you're referring to the US and whatever action the administration took in the wake of September 11, but terrorism isn't something that began that day, and the US isn't the only country to make mistakes while trying to combat it. In a way, you're lucky-at least the threat is from outside , people all over the country are united against it and agree that something ought to be done. It's nowhere near as terrifying and complicated as it can get when one part of a country turns against the rest-for reasons that somehow make you understand why they want to do things like these. And when they're trying to combat terrorist threats to a majority of the population, the government will go too far, it's practically a law of nature. Whether it's the Bush administration with Guantanamo Bay etc., several successive Indian governments and the Kashmiri and Northeasern separatist movements, or Sri Lanka with the LTTE-and the militant groups can be as bad as the army to civilians in the war zones sometimes, it's like a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea for them.
More on this later, when I am free and coherent.

[laCroSseLoOf]

Pilum, haven't you heard of organisations that use child soldiers? The LTTE in Sri Lanka does it-that's one organisation that I know of, and I read somewhere that Shining Path had child soldiers too.Children have always been caught up in terrorism wherever it happens, and it's sad but true. It's heartbreaking to hear about children who lose their entire families to violence and then end up believing violence is the only way out.
During WWII the Nazis implemented teaching methods in schools to "brainwash" the children into believing unfounded stereotypes against Jews, and even recruited them to train to be soldiers (I can't remeber the name of the organization :shrug:)


In answer to Morgoth's question I'm going to say yes, I do think the US has gone to far trying to prevent terrorist attacks (exceptions=see paragraph 4*). As for the weapons of mass destruction that Iraq never had (or hide extremly well)... well you do the math, Bush had his facts wrong.

As for trying to 'help' the Isreal/Palestine conflict, I think that the US is sticking it's nose into places that it doesn't need to be. Yes, we are a super-power but I think that soldier's are losing their lives, and for what? a stupid conflict over land! I'm just wondering what people from countries outside the US think about the American Government always trying to help other countries. Don't get me wrong! I think that the US should help third world countries, but sometimes I think it goes too far.

*As far as terrorist alert levels (the colors like Yellow, Orange, Red, etc.) I think that sometimes all they do is scare people even more, but I also think that some measures that have been taken to increase 'Homeland Security' were for the better (ie. more security in airports). However, the more security you have the more careful the government has to be about taking away the rights of Americans.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, I guess that I'm just venting some of my frustrations of seeing bad news headlining the newspaper everyday, "2 Soldiers Die in Car Bombing" et cetra. :shrug:

[Kirsten]

I have been told several times that before the terrorist atrocities, security at US airports for internal flights was very lax. Increased security at airports is a good thing, and I don't think it impinges on anyone's rights. If security had been better in London, the Lockerbie bomb might never have happened - evidence was suppressed, from a security guard, who is certain that the suitcase containing the bomb was left overnight in an unlocked shed. That's an absolute disgrace, and also calls into question the conviction of the guy who was convicted.

[Drusilla]

I agree with the need for increased security, Kirsten, but not racially-stereotyped security: American airports went pretty beserk when it came to checking anyone with a brown skin in the days following September 11. I understand how that happened but it doesn't make me any less angry that they did those things.
I have to go, I have class.

[Pilum]

I know plenty about child soldiers. Been going on since we first wondered if walking upright and leaving the trees was a good career move, and can't see it stopping any time soon. Take the aggression and 'I'm untouchable' attitude of most adolescent lads, couple with the need for acceptance and belonging and add a soupcon of authority and discipline. Makes a good mix.

I actually think that a situation like the school, perversely, rather a good argument for non-lethal weapons. Don't kill them, take them prisoner. Then give 'em to the families.

LaCrosseLoof, it was the Hitler Jugend (Hitler Youth).

EDITED TO NOTE: Seems that the families in Ossetia may have done just that, heard that a couple of fleeing scumbags got cornered by locals. Spetsnaz weren't overly enthusiastic in coming to the rescue either. :tu:

If the Chechen's thought that the Russians were bad before, I don't think they've seen anything like what I imagine is about to hit them.... Not if the dead kids are in the 100's. Don't think it'll extend to some instant sunshine appearing in the area, but won't be far short...

[Tane]

Some of the hostage takers are still in the school grounds and that there may still be hostages held in the school, perhaps the basement of the school itself. This is really bad and is turning my stomach. I can only say cowards, for going for children in the first place. :sad:

[marauderlupin]

update from cbc.ca :

MOSCOW - As many as 200 people were killed and 600 injured after commandos stormed a school in southern Russia on Friday where armed militants held hostages for the past three days.

As night fell on the scene, Russian commanders said all of the hostage-takers have been either killed or captured and that military activities have ended. However, conflicting reports suggest four militants remain at large.

Emergency officials say they've identified 95 bodies so far. As many as 550 people have been hospitalized – including more than 300 children. Up to 1,500 people may have been held in the school.

I agree with Tane, it was a very cowardly thing to do and doesn't help their cause in any way.

[Wab]

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many groups cross a line that sparks global revulsion yet still continue on their way.

[FlyingPhoenix]

322 dead in Russia siege Link (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/04/russia.school/index.html)

BESLAN, Russia (CNN) -- The death toll in the Russian hostage crisis has climbed to 322 as President Vladimir Putin ordered a security clampdown and forces searched for attackers who may have escaped.

Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky said Saturday 322 bodies, including those of 155 children, had been recovered from the scene of the siege in the southern town of Beslan.

The toll could rise slightly if investigators find more bodies in the rubble of the school, Fridinsky said. Officials previously put the toll at 250.

The two-day standoff ended Friday after Russian forces stormed the school amid explosions and intense gunfire.

More than 700 people were wounded, and more than 540 of them were still in hospitals, including 330 children, officials said Saturday.

Two explosions at the school gymnasium where hostages were being held caused most of the casualties, Fridinsky said, adding that investigators inspecting bullet wounds also found many people were shot in the back.

Fridinsky acknowledged that more than 1,000 people had been held hostage during the ordeal. Earlier reports had placed the number of hostages at a few hundred.

Also Saturday, Putin ordered the borders closed in the North Ossetia region where the siege took place as security forces searched for militants who may have escaped.

Officials said 26 hostage-takers, including 10 people from Arab countries, were killed. More than 10 Russian special forces also died.

There were reports Friday that three suspects had been seized and three others had escaped. But Fridinsky wouldn't comment on the reports.

Interfax said Saturday that explosives and arms used by the attackers were possibly smuggled into the building well in advance.

An unnamed regional security officer was quoted as saying the weapons had been hidden under the floor during summer construction work, Interfax said.

Putin traveled to the traumatized region near Chechnya early Saturday, visiting wounded in the hospital and meeting local officials.

"Russia is grieving with the people of North Ossetia," he said. "Nobody wanted to use force.

"Even alongside the most cruel attacks of the past, this terrorist act occupies a special place because it was aimed at children," news agencies quoted him as saying.

"One of the tasks pursued by the terrorists was to stoke ethnic hatred, to blow up the whole of our North Caucasus.

"Anyone who feels sympathetic towards such provocations will be viewed as accomplices of terrorists and terrorism," he said.

At least 79 bodies have been identified, the Emergency Situations Ministry said. Many of the bodies were burned beyond recognition and will require DNA testing for identification, which could take several days.

The hostage-taking shocked the world and brought ringing outcries by international leaders. (Full story)

One witness told a reporter that a hostage-taker had set off a suicide bomb in a gymnasium full of children.

Valery Andreyev, head of the local branch of the FSB intelligence service, said 10 of the hostage-takers killed were from Arab countries.

Until now, the hostage-takers -- who had been demanding independence for Chechnya -- had been regarded as residents of that restive republic or other Caucasus areas.

Chechens in the past have been affiliated with the al Qaeda terror network, and an Arab connection further suggests a link between the Chechen rebel movement and international terrorists. Chechen rebels have been fighting Russian troops for a decade.

Near the scene, news footage showed the bodies of dead children on stretchers. One woman leaned down and caressed the body of a young boy. Other women stood shocked, holding their hands to their mouths and weeping.

These and other images of the siege and its aftermath, aired on television and posted on the Internet, horrified people around the world.

Carol Bellamy, executive director of the U.N. Children's Fund, known as UNICEF, called the violence "unacceptable ... incomprehensible" and "senseless." She said it was "part of a rising tide of violence aimed at children."

"This is yet again another instance in which adults are trying to carry out their views to children. It's totally unacceptable."

U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "horrified" at the deaths of so many children and others.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair sent a letter to Putin saying, "It is hard to express my revulsion at the inhumanity of terrorists prepared to put children and their parents through such suffering."

U.S. President George W. Bush said he mourned "the innocent lives that have been lost."

"This is yet another grim reminder of the lengths to which terrorists will go to threaten the civilized world," Bush said at a campaign event in Milwaukee.

The hostage incident began Wednesday when an armed gang of terrorists took children, parents and teachers hostage on the first day of school in Beslan.

Friday's storming operation was not planned, said a local official from Russia's FSB intelligence service, who told Russian media the troops had been ready for a long siege.

The forces stormed the building around midday after Russian officials, under a cease-fire agreement with militants, tried to collect bodies lying outside the building.

There was an explosion, hostages fled, and hostage-takers opened fire on the children and rescue workers. One of the workers was killed and another was wounded. Russian troops then opened fire at the rebels, and the battle began.

Chaotic scenes
Several hours later the scene remained in chaos, with pockets of resistance remaining and machine-gun fire heard on the scene and troops going room-by-room as the wounded were being taken out of the building.

In the gymnasium, where many of the children were held, the roof caught fire and collapsed. An escaped hostage told Russian television NTV that a suicide bomber blew herself up in the gym when it was filled with hostages.

Journalists reported seeing around 100 people dead in the gym, with charred bodies amid pieces of the collapsed ceiling. Interfax quoted a defense official as saying that "the terrorists planted a lot of mines and booby-traps filled with metal bolts in the gym."

Children who survived said they were denied food and water and had to take off their clothes because of the heat. Some boys said they had to drink their own urine because they lacked liquids.

The standoff followed a bloody week in Russia. A female suicide bomber killed nine people outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday. Two suspected Chechen female suicide bombers downed two airliners on August 24, killing all 89 people aboard the planes.

Russian officials have said the new wave of attacks is an attempt at revenge for last weekend's elections in Chechnya in which a Kremlin-backed candidate won the presidency.

Correspondents Matthew Chance, Ryan Chilcote and Jill Dougherty and ITV's Julian Manyon contributed to this report

That's the most resent stand. I think now Putin will very well start another war in Chechenia (sp) to get ride of all this rebels. And if the USA try's to argue they can't I imagine they get to hear they can very well do what the USA did in the last 2 years, too.

322 dead's and half of it childrens then count from those 700 injured at least 200 at it too since most are wounded deadly then its 522 deads. Do you honestly think Putin will do just nothing?

The most terrible thing I could imagine happened at some points I did think its worst as 9/11 killing childrens like that is without any words. I certainly know childrens are used previous that day, I know this mankind shows no mercy to that who are innocent but this is standing so much out that one cannot turn away from it. Not anymore.

[Kangy]

I think that's a disgusting idea.

Terrorism is becoming the new buzz word far too fast for taking our rights away.

[Rising Phoenix]

Terrorism is becoming the new buzz word far too fast for taking our rights away.
Unfortunately, that is so true. It seems the current administration is using terrorism, exploitation of 9/11, and fear in general to impose intrusive laws. The average (and often times quite gullible and ignorant) American is made to think that we are at risk for terrorist acts everywhere at all times. We are told that putting our complete faith in our President will keep us safe. And the saddest part is that the more terrorist attacks we have in the near future, the more people will undoubtedly (and ironically) flock to Bush because he has kept us safe in preventing such terrorist attacks. No, it does not make sense, but then again, neither does the American public....

[Wep]

My views on terrorism? I just think that there has to be another way to approach the problem. Terrorism is bred on distrust and hate, i don't think waging war is going to stop that. I mean even if you wipe out all current terrorism cells, you'll still have to deal with the next generation. I think our world has become extremely caught up in this debate over terrorism, and in some ways has taken things too far. The destruction caused by terrorism is great, but so is/will be the destruction caused by war.

[GryffondorGrl]

Yes, I think that the US has gone way too far. We're trying to stick our noses into every little problem trying to make the world better and more perfect while disasters are lying all around us in our own country and other places in the world. America is loosing its reputation, pride, and more people are in poverty, more people have been killed by going this far. It's not a good thing.

[tonks442]

Yes, I think that the US has gone way too far. We're trying to stick our noses into every little problem trying to make the world better and more perfect while disasters are lying all around us in our own country and other places in the world. America is loosing its reputation, pride, and more people are in poverty, more people have been killed by going this far. It's not a good thing.

I agree! We have created more problems by trying to fix them, and so I think that the Anti-terrorism movement is corrupt.