A spy in Dumbledores office?

[MotherBear1975]

When Phinies Nigellus (I *know* I misspelled that) is delivering Dumbledore's message to Harry to "Stay where you are" He refers to Voldemort as "The Dark Lord". Tho he seems to miss it there, later on Harry points out to Snape that he's only ever heard Death Eathers refer to him that way. If Nigellus has two portraits he can move between, whats to say there's not a third somewhere?

Speaking of portraits, what does anyone think of Sirius coming back as a portrait? The ones we've seen are pretty lively... and I just can't stand to think he's gone for good!:sigh:

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

I like the idea that sirius will come back as a portrait, but i dont think it is likely. when commenting on his mother's portrait, he says that she kept herself alive 'out of pure spite'... i dont think sirius is that selfish, and i agree with nearly headless nick that sirius would not come back as a ghost, he is not one to linger between life and death and not be brave enough to just die. i am, however, confident that jkr will enable us to get to see sirius again, in one form or another.

[firebolt2000]

I also hope that Sirius comes back somehow, but I don't know if JKR will do that. I do agree that perhaps Phineas is a bad guy. After all, when Dumbledore escaped, he said "You know Minister, I disagree with Dumbledore on many counts....but you cannot deny he's got style...."

I think maybe that is a sign to saying that he may be against Dumbledore and maybe for Dumbledore. He seems to be rather arrogant as well.

[Cat]

Not everybody who supports Voldemort actually serves him.

[Oddfellow]

I do not think that calling Voldemort "The Dark Lord" has anything to do with your allegience to him. Gandalf called Sauron the Dark Lord in LOTR. Does that mean Gandalf is a follower of Sauron? I hope not.
It is strange however for Snape, an ex-Death Eater, to call him that. Suspicious, it seems he may be on the verge of a relapse to the dark side.

[Fashizzle]

Maybe Snape is just used to calling him that because he used to be a death eater. Also lotr and hp are two different stories.

[MotherBear1975]

Ah, but remember! JKR does *not* put things in that are not somehow signifigant... so the fact that Harry actually pointed it out makes me think that there *must* be something to it! And Gandalf was a whole different scenerio... he wasn't the only good guy to refer to Sauron that way

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

perhaps snape is so busy working as a spy that he's just used to saying it... also, if he is being watched by anyone, (draco malfoy) he would need to stay in character so the death eaters don't suspect him as a spy for dumbledore. i dont think that dumbledore would trust him if he was a real death eater. (i know he trusted moody but that was only for a year... snape has been teaching at dumbledore's school for 14 years i believe)... hm.

[familiar]

I doubt Phinneas is a spy. He was a bad Headmaster, lazy and good for nothing, but I believe he really cared for Sirius and that must mean he supported his ideals (that is, good over evil) to some extent. I do believe somewhere in the story we will encounter spies and mind control (can't remember the curse). It seems inevitable. Now Snape, I do believe he will go back to Voldemort. I know the argument that Dumbledore trusts him, but I think he will be betrayed.

[Veneficus]

I would think in order to have your picture in the headmaster's office, all of them past headmasters, there would have to be a sworn agreement to assist the current Headmaster, be him/her good or bad. This is why when Dumbledore left with Fawkes he locked his office, to prevent any assistance for Umbridge.

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

i agree with veneficus... it is a very good idea, as they can spy on the rest of the castle and alert the headmaster of any disturbances... i believe this is one of the reasons dumbledore is so quick to get to the scene of accidents and other troubles.

[Cat]

Originally posted by Oddfellow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=441389#post441389))
I do not think that calling Voldemort "The Dark Lord" has anything to do with your allegience to him. Gandalf called Sauron the Dark Lord in LOTR. Does that mean Gandalf is a follower of Sauron? I hope not.
It is strange however for Snape, an ex-Death Eater, to call him that. Suspicious, it seems he may be on the verge of a relapse to the dark side.


Wrong book, mate. In that one, it was perfectly acceptable to call somebody 'The Dark Lord'.

In Harry Potter, the title is like a mark of sinister respect.

[Snape's_Secret]

Ok here are my thaughts on the death's in the Harry Potter books...
Now so far we have like both harrys parents, cedric, and now poor sirius. Now i KNOW that J.K would not bring ANY of them TRUELY back in any form... here is why. She knows that if she writes about death and that young children read it and she brings them back then the kids reading it will get a false sense of hope if they themselves have experienced death and want to bring back their dead relatives or whatever... I was watching interviews with children waiting in line to purchase the latest book where one of the kids said "I hope Harry's parents come back" which made me a little sad that kids can think that people that die arent really gone and i don't think J.K would like to reinforce that idea upon her young readers... just my thoughts.

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

i disagree, snape... according to the many interviews i have read with jkr, she seems to genuinely write the books, not for the reaction of the audience, but for herself and the overall story. she does, however, reinforce the fact that "no spell can reawaken the dead" but as we have seen, there are many ways in which we can contact them, whether it is ghost form or another. the department of mysteries' death room will no doubt play a huge role in the books to come and future contact with the dead.

[Veneficus]

SS,

I would agree to a point, however since PA books four and five have more complex situations that tend to relate to an older audience.

[sfaist]

And just because you disagree with Dumbledore, doesn't mean you agree with Voldemort. The world of Harry Potter isn't so black and white. Snape is a perfect example of this. He can't stand Harry and doesn't like how DD treats him, but at this point is a member of the order.

[Veneficus]

I remember at one point Harry heard voices, a converssation, in Dumbledore's office and when he finally entered the office Dumbledore was the only occupant.

Yep, the portraits can keep an eye on a great deal of events and places.

[lorna]

My understanding of the portraits is that they serve the present head master.
And I was just having a little read through of COS and noticed that in Ginny's Valentine song she referrs to Voldemort as the Dark Lord.
Or are we suggesting Tom Riddle wrote Harry Potter's Valentine song.
I'm willing to bet this "Dark Lord" thing has something to do with "once you've been influenced by Voldemort" there are some things that just stay with you.

[Picko]

The portraits in the headmasters office are bound to serve the present headmaster that being Dumbledore. It doesn't seem like they truly have a will of their own and if they did essentially it'd be like they were not even dead and therefore death would be devalued.

[PlaceboAddict]

I gotta say that I seriously doubt that Sirius will be brought back from the dead. If there was even a chance that Sirus wasn't dead, Dumbledore would have done soemthing about it. And unlike many writers, Rowling doesn't strike me as the kind that will bring him back just because the fans miss him. That's not to say that Harry won't ever contact him again, or that we won't ever see him again. There's always flashbacks, as I'm sure that we'll get the pleasure of finding out more about Harry's parents - in which case Sirius would be there too.

As for the veil, they left it too much of a mystery not to bring back. The whispering, and what Luna said really made it out that we'll definitely see it again. The other thing is that it struck me really odd that Harry wouldn't ask Dumbledore about it. Surely, he would know a lot about it, and could put Harry's mind to rest about it. The only logical reason that Rowling wouldn't write Harry asking, is if we will find out more about it in future books. *crosses fingers*... because I really do miss Sirius already... :sigh:

[Oddfellow]

I was giving an example.
I know that they are two different books. Dang. It was just an example.

I don't believe Snape is still catering to the Dark Lord (there I said it too, does that make me a Death Eater?), everyone makes such a big deal out of what people call Voldemort. I know Harry called him on it, but I believe that was more of a counter-argument than an accusation.
I know what the words look like on paper, but it's not ALL black and white.

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

by no means do i think that snape has alleigances to voldemort, but jkr rarely does things just for the fun of it... harry called him on it and it means that we should notice it. however, like oddfellow said, things arent black and white... i stand by what i said in my previous post... snape must stay in character in order to maintain his position as spy.

[ktqt207]

in both of trawlawney's real predictions she called voldemort "the dark lord". so i don't think that just by calling him that ur evil or a death eater or something. harry was probably just trying to annoy snape.

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by Oddfellow (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=443462#post443462))
I was giving an example.
I know that they are two different books. Dang. It was just an example.

I don't believe Snape is still catering to the Dark Lord (there I said it too, does that make me a Death Eater?), everyone makes such a big deal out of what people call Voldemort. I know Harry called him on it, but I believe that was more of a counter-argument than an accusation.
I know what the words look like on paper, but it's not ALL black and white.


Sit down. Have a muffin? It's okay. Snape is hard to figure. I don't think he knows himself what he will do.

My personal theory was that only members of the order could say Voldemort's name, and I think Dumbledore's Army will all be saying soon, too. Remember Hermione kind of stuttered it once? It will be rolling off her tongue soon enough.

[Oddfellow]

Yeah (takes a bite of muffin) I ah gree wit' ju. (Crumbs fall out and hit Whizbang121 in the face) 'Dis gud muff'.

I think your right. I just get a little frusterated. (takes another bite of muffin) Got anee milk?

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

speaking of jumbled talk, what was ron trying to say when he said "node iddum eentup sechew"??

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by whizbang121 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=443490#post443490))
My personal theory was that only members of the order could say Voldemort's name, and I think Dumbledore's Army will all be saying soon, too. Remember Hermione kind of stuttered it once? It will be rolling off her tongue soon enough.


Hermione was spouting Voldemort's name with absolute gusto throughout OotP. This trend was so prolific that it even has an entire thread devoted to it (you can find that here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13244)).

[Liselle]

The portraits of hte ex hogwarts heads are bound to serve and aid the true hogwarts head master, the portrait of the ex headmistress (and healer ) I can't think of her name says so.

What about this, Dumbledore said that he didn't mind if they stripped him of hie order of Merlin first class as long as they didn't take him off the Chocolate Frog cards....what if he's using those to "watch over" students in the magical world...look at how often Harry got him as a card...remember he was his very first one.

As for sirius coming back as a portrait, do they have to be taken during the life of the subject???and are they only active after the person is deceased? or are they like the photographs (Lockharts for example)

[Liselle]

I think that Lupin has referred to Voldemort as "the dark lord" more than once and it struck me at the time as being strange

[Wakkachuta]

WRT Snape: can you really imagine him calling Voldemort 'You-Know-Who'? I can't. I think he fears him too much to speak his name, and seeing as how he WAS a Death Eater, he just naturally still uses that name for him.
And Phineas Nigellus... there's no way he can be a Death Eater or Voldemort supporter. He is bound to serve the current Headmaster of Hogwarts... Dumbledore, not Voldemort. There's probably some magic, similar to that of the house-elves, that does not permit them to answer to anyone but the current headmaster.

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by Liselle (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=444382#post444382))
The portraits of hte ex hogwarts heads are bound to serve and aid the true hogwarts head master, the portrait of the ex headmistress (and healer ) I can't think of her name says so.

What about this, Dumbledore said that he didn't mind if they stripped him of hie order of Merlin first class as long as they didn't take him off the Chocolate Frog cards....what if he's using those to "watch over" students in the magical world...look at how often Harry got him as a card...remember he was his very first one.

As for sirius coming back as a portrait, do they have to be taken during the life of the subject???and are they only active after the person is deceased? or are they like the photographs (Lockharts for example)


Good Heavens! I never thought of that. All those Lockhearts, smiling and signing autographs ... for eternity!

There was a thread on the chocolate frog cards recently. Must have fallen off the list or got merged with something else.

[kfingers]

I kind of like phineus. He is a prick and a slytherin at heart, but you can tell he is more mischevious than evil. He doesn't agree with dumbledore but he also is amused by how talented he is and how eccentric he is. Phineus is not a great ally, but I stand by saying I think he is more of a humorous trouble maker than a black-hearted dark wizard.

[whizbang121]

Time, and the next two books, will tell.

[MotherBear1975]

Originally posted by ktqt207 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=443485#post443485))
in both of trawlawney's real predictions she called voldemort "the dark lord". so i don't think that just by calling him that ur evil or a death eater or something. harry was probably just trying to annoy snape.


Ahhh... but that doesn't count... Prof. T wasn't speaking for herself... so *she* never called him the dark Lord... I agree with the person who said that they don't even think Snape himself knows what he will do, but its very clear that Harry doesn't trust him. I think it *was* an accusation

[MotherBear1975]

As for the paintings working after the subjects death... we know they do... because Phineas referred to Sirus as "the last living Black".

As for the paintings being bound (forced?) to help the current Headmaster... I don't think so. Phineas only got up to deliver the message about the snake attack because the other paintings threatened him. And I think it would be more accurate to say "the *true* headmaster, rather than the current... does it seem like ANY of the portraits would have helped Umbridge?

Something else to think of... Phineas was still on the tapestry... from which all the "good" names had been stricken... and Dumbledore was *not* headmaster during Tom Riddles schooling... could it have been Phineas

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by MotherBear1975 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=445918#post445918))
As for the paintings working after the subjects death... we know they do... because Phineas referred to Sirus as "the last living Black".

As for the paintings being bound (forced?) to help the current Headmaster... I don't think so. Phineas only got up to deliver the message about the snake attack because the other paintings threatened him. And I think it would be more accurate to say "the *true* headmaster, rather than the current... does it seem like ANY of the portraits would have helped Umbridge?

Something else to think of... Phineas was still on the tapestry... from which all the "good" names had been stricken... and Dumbledore was *not* headmaster during Tom Riddles schooling... could it have been Phineas


I thinkHeadmaster Dibbit was in charge at Hogwarts during Tom Riddle's years there. And wasn't it Dibbit's portrait who pointed out that they (all the portraits of headmasters past) were obliged to serve the current headmaster to the best of their ability?

[jordmundt6]

Yeah Armando Dippet (Dipp being the operative part of his name) was the Headmaster. In fact we know that Dumbledore has been headmaster less than three decades since he was appointed after Remus was bitten and before he turned 11.

The paintings are bound or obligated to serve the Headmaster or Headmistress of Hogwarts (the "True" one), but they seem to have some flexibility in fulfilling their obligations.

[whizbang121]

Any idea what Dumbledore did before he went to Hogwarts?

[jordmundt6]

Hmm? As a kid? No clue whatsoever. I believe that he got his advanced education (whatever that might be to qualify you to become a professor) and went straight into the Transfiguration job at Hogwarts. Remember what Marchbanks said about him. "I examined him personally in Charms and Transfiguration [or was it just Trnasfiguration] during his NEWTs. Did things with a wand I'd never seen before." The fact that Dumbledore calls Riddle the most brilliant student ever to attend Hogwarts indicates a great deal of respect for his mind. Although, "most brilliant" could have absolutely nothing to do with "most talented.

[whizbang121]

Wonder when he discoered the 12 uses of Dragons' Blood. Maybe he was a student of Flamel, who must have developed the sorcerer's stone before Albus was born.

[inoLIKEmonkeys]

Phinies Nigellus is defenatly not a spy, its not within his power, it says in the book that all of the paintings of the old heads must pledge complete loyalty to the current head of hogwarts

[FredRocksMySocks]

pheneas has proven himself to be a goodie, though lazy and unwilling to help much, by obeying DD. i doubt he's a spy. i think we're too quick to judge the family because of people in it, and forgetting that not everybody thinks the same way. sirius only said that he was the most useless headmaster or something of the sort, never that he was Dark or anything. Plus, DD wouldn't have kept his picture around if he thought it would not prove useful. And DD's smart like that :)

[inoLIKEmonkeys]

i doubt dumbledore is whatching from the chocolate frog cards. There seems to be two types of portraits in the magical world, the ones like the old headmasters and blacks mom and the fat lady, who seem capapble of speech, move from frame to frame (in hogwarts at least), and are perfectly aware of whats going on around them. then there are the photos in harry's album the pictures in the daily profet, and the chocolate frog cards. they seem less intelligent, are confined to there picture, and never speek. all they do is wink, smile, and wave. It dosnt seem like dumbledore could do any spying through those. In Phinies Nigellus' case it seemed like he could only be in one portrait at a time. taking into consideration the number of dumbledore chocolate frog cards there must be out there, dumbledore could hardly be in any one of them for a decent amont of time.

[FredRocksMySocks]

very true...portraits seem to retain different powers than do photgraphs, but, eh..that's another thread.

[ana_banana]

I think the portraits wouldn't really betray Dumbledore....basically, because they spend the day sleeping. Just kidding lol.
But the portraits are bound to serve Dumbledore...aren't they?.

[FredRocksMySocks]

yepperz, it says it's their duty to serve the current headmaster. and i think it is understood that DD would have forbidden them to work for Voldie. Just a guess though ;)

[themushygod]

i dont phineas is a spy
he was (even though he would deny it) saddend by sirus's death and he is also bound to DD

Also im gonna have to say SNAPE IS NOT SPYING ON DEATH EATERS

im sure of this

do you really think J.K would have him doing something so bleeding obvious
no j.k loves to suprise us i think hes doing something quite important but hes not spying on death eaters

remeber Voldemorte is a skilled legimens (however its spelt) and probly a skilled Occulumenist (harry was a diffrent matter he wasnt aware harry was listing so he didnt block him)
so is snape but im pretty sure voldemort is far supirior to snape and already mistrusts him

Volde knows snape betrayed him and he will be extremly sus if he turned up again

[morgan le fay]

like most here, i dont think phineas is a spy either.... but were always meeting new characters.... who's to say that another portrait isnt double teaming it? :huh:

if you wanted to get rid of a portrait... do u just pick it up off the wall and break it or slash it or whatever??? like if there WAS a spy in a portrait and u wanted to get rid of the portrait.... how would u get rid of the person in it???
when the fat lady in the pink dress had her canvas slashed, she merely moved over to another painting! are they like ghosts, where there's no getting rid of them??

although... if there WAS a spy in a portrait, i would hope that DD would see it in his foe glass. ;)

[Masterfroggy]

very true...portraits seem to retain different powers than do photgraphs, but, eh..that's another thread.

When Moody shows Harry the Picture of the original OotP he tells the ones at the front to shift aside, so Pictures and portraits might work the same, for some things but none of the photographs seem to speak.

As for the Portraits of the other Headmasters, One of the other Portrait cries to Phiniea's saying that they are "Honour Bound" to serve, some peoples understanding of honour is slightly different to others. but I for one do not think that Phineas is a spy because he is but a reflection of the person he was painted from, so he can not support Lord Voldemort as the picture predates The Dark Lord, and therefore he has no choice but to be himself as he was painted, as Harry thought when he looked as Moodys picture seeing them all cheerful and happy people, little did they know what was instore for them, Phineas knows his Great great grandson, only because they spent time living in the same space, and all he knows about the world is what he see from his canvas, were he to express any interest, in the world of now it would not ring true to me, his ideas and views are set in stone (canvas)


Master Froggy
All new and Improved
Harry Potter Encyclopaedia
www.masterfroggy1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[jordmundt6]

Photographs require more Muggle ingenuity and offer less room for magical creativity than do photographs which are basically composed of liquid colors that can be mixed like solutions, suspensions, or potions. In CoS, Colin was banging on about a special development technique (only one magical element to the mix). So, portraits can be magically imbued with a lot more of the personality of their subjects than photographs can. As for Phineas--geez people we really have to work on our prejudice here. Just because he's a Slytherin with a little power and a little style and not very popular we assume he's evil (evil enough to relish the idea of Voldemort's domination)? Come on. It seems like he enjoys Dumbledore and respects him. He enjoys being contrary because he realizes that Dumbledore is an equal. He's actually a lot of fun as a portrait. Wouldn't have wanted to be around for his tenure as Hogwarts Headmaster though.

[Weatherby]

I hope Dumbledore would know not to overlook the portraits as potentional spies. I'm sure he has that covered.

[jordmundt6]

I don't think he takes anyone for granted. But we all seem to be forgetting something. As the woman with the woven staff reminded us so subtly with help from her demure pal Fortescue, the porataits of past Headmasters and Headmistresses are bound in servitude to the current leader of Hogwarts to help him (or her eventually when Dumbledore retires) carry out his/her duties and protect the school (and its alumni).

[argora2000]

I was wondering whether Mrs. Black's :censored: portrait could be a spy for the Malfoys...may be they have a picture of her hanging in Malfoy Manor or something. :scared:

Dumbledore probably got his information of the Potter's attack from a potrait hanging in the Potter's home...on HALLOWEEN Night!!!!

I forgot....

(Happy Halloween!!!)

[GlassRoses314]

When Harry accused Snape with the whole "Dark Lord" thing, it got me wondering. I'm more then sure I've heard people call him the Dark Lord before OotP and they weren't Death Eaters either. So I was wondering how Harry could make such a statement as "I've only ever heard Death Eaters refer to him as the Dark Lord" so I'm a bit confused on that.

Phineas I don't think is a spy, but I wouldn't put it past him. After Kreacher (forgot how to make the censor icon) I wouldn't put it past anyone, really. He's arrogant and I kind of don't like him for insulting Sirius. He is kind of fun as a portrait, though one we should keep an eye on. Still I don't like him much. Also whoever mentioned the fact that Dumbledore must've became Headmaster after Remus was bitten and before he was 11...good one! I totally forgot about that. I also hope we see Sirius again in some way or form. :'(


Also, Happy Halloween! Although the Potters died on this day, so maybe it's not so happy?

lol

[Zachary1993]

When Phinies Nigellus (I *know* I misspelled that) is delivering Dumbledore's message to Harry to "Stay where you are" He refers to Voldemort as "The Dark Lord". Tho he seems to miss it there, later on Harry points out to Snape that he's only ever heard Death Eathers refer to him that way. If Nigellus has two portraits he can move between, whats to say there's not a third somewhere?

Speaking of portraits, what does anyone think of Sirius coming back as a portrait? The ones we've seen are pretty lively... and I just can't stand to think he's gone for good!:sigh:
That would be a good idea because there are rumours that Sirius will somehow come back. If that does happen then Harry could go to him for advice. It will not be as good as having him alive but at least Harry gets him.