Why was Lily killed? and Why didn't Voldemort want to kill Lily?

[LewsTherin]

Ok here's theory about what happened the night Voldemort was first defeated by Harry. It consists of two parts, one based on what we know, and the other going into the theoretical fantastic.

Here's the factual part.
We know that Voldy went to the Potters to kill Harry and James. We also know that he did not need to kill Lily but did so because she resisted him. She then sacrificed herself and Voldemort's powers were broken when his AK curse failed. Run of the mill stuff.

But here's a suggestion. We've always assumed that what happened was that Lily's sacrifice created a counter charm that simply acted as a shield and bounced the AK back at Voldemort, not involving Harry at all. Here's where my theory starts going crazy. What if, this was in fact, not the case? What if, it didn't bounce the curse back, but rather absorbed it, using Harry's own power? Let me explain.

We know Harry is very powerful, and it is my opinion that he's the most powerful wizard in terms of sheer magical power that has ever lived. He outstrips Voldemort by a comfortable margin, and Dumbledore as well. So, maybe Lily knew this. Maybe she knew that she, in her own power, could not stop an AK curse no matter what the power of the counter charm, but she knew about Harry's power, knew that it was even greater than Voldemort's. She also probably knew that Voldy would come for them, and thus started to prepare long before he came.

Here's where the theory goes into the theoretical fantastic. Thus, she invented a spell, counter charm, whatever, that would use Harry's own power, combine it with hers, and create, not a shield, but a type of syphon (vacuum cleaner as an analogy). She created this spell to not only protect Harry, but to kill Voldemort as well. Here's what it would do. As soon as the AK curse touched Harry, Lily's counter charm, using Harry's magical power, would absorb it rendering it harmless, but it wouldn't stop there. The absorbed curse would create a link betweenn V and Harry, and through the link, the counter charm would begin to suck the magic out of Voldemort (This would explain the abilities Harry recieved) and transfer it to Harry. This would only be a transfer of magical power, not soul/personality. It would suck all the magic out of V, taking his immortality (which is based in magic) with it, and once done, would consume his physical body in the shock.

But this only partially worked. Lily overestimated Voldy, thinking he was stronger than he actually was. His body died from the shock of the spell long before it was meant to, and because his body died, the transfer could not be completed and the process was stopped. Voldy had enough magic left (the greater part) in him to escape with his immortality intact. And because the transfer was stopped and not completed, the link between them remained. Harry gained what power had been sucked out of V (parseltoungue, other abilities), but the process did not finish. Of course, the spell can never be completed, unless another, equally powerful and identical counter charm were performed.

The only thing that lends credence to my theory, is the fact that the transfer of abilities to Harry was not intentional. I attribute this to Lily's counter charm that sucked those abilites out of Voldemort. It also explains why there's a 'link' between Voldy and Harry.

But anyway, that's my haribrained theory on what may have happened. It's probably wrong but I had fun thinking about it.

Any thoughts on my theory and your own on what happened that night?

[Anne]

Very interesting theory, Lews. I salute your creativity. I think the final story will end up being similar to yours.

Here is what I firmly believe about what happened that night. Voldemort had no interest in James or Lily. He was only after Harry. Also, remember when Mr. Ollivander said that James' wand was excellent for transfiguration, and Lily's was excellent for charms? Well, based on that, I believe that it was definitely a charm Lily used that saved Harry. Now, remember that Voldy said Lily used an ancient magic. This may or may not be the charm I was talking about. I am inclined to believe that he was not talking about the charm. Rather, he was talking about the love/bravery/self-sacrifice that saved Harry.

Sorry if I tended to ramble a bit there. :o

[Kneazle]

:wow: Your theory, it's quite fantastical. Wow. Excellent. :yup:

What do I think happened on that night? Well, just what we see in the books. I don't think that Lily had any real idea of what she was doing when she died for Harry. She just knew she'd protect him 'til the death. If she had some plan or if she knew that her sacrifice would end up doing, then I don't think she'd sound so very desperate when Voldemort attacked. She was screaming, pleading with Voldemort. "I'll do anything" "take me". . . I think that if she had the slightest idea about what would happen she would sound more resigned-- we know enough of her bravery to know she wouldn't go frantic.

Of course, that's based on my sketchy take of Lily's character. ;) It could be anything-- I just like the simple turn of events that's been presented so far. :) Dumbledore and Voldemort both accept it like that-- Voldemort even explains it and admits his mistake in overlooking it.

[TheShadow]

We know how powerful Voldermort is so I don't see how a simple charm could stop AK. So it must have something to do with Harry. The charm obviosly helped Harry but wouldn't have stopped it on it's own. I think Lews theory is excellent and could well be true.

[TheSortingHat]

I had a theory about this a few days ago on MNet, I might bring parts of it over. I like that thinking, Lews, but there are two things I don't like about it.

First - Voldemort still has the ability to speak to snakes. He did it in GoF. So, either Harry is independently a Parselmouth, or the power didn't get sucked out of Voldemort, merely copied from him.

Second - I can't see Lily, a confirmed Gryffindor, having the desire to rob powers from Voldemort and kill him at the same time. That seems like a very opportunistic thing to do, not something a Gryffindor would do. Wouldn't it be enough to kill him, especially if she knew that Harry was already the most powerful wizard in the world?

Overall, still a very good theory.

TheSortingHaat

[harryton]

hmm very good theory. I think that Voldemort KNEW about harry's power and thats why he wanted to kill him.

[ReLupin]

Very well thought out theory!

IMHO, it was actually as simple as it appears on the surface. Lily died to save Harry's life and her sacrifice protected him. I don't think she expected Voldemort to show up that night because I think she trusted Peter as the Secret Keeper. (What kind of person would she be if she knew that Peter would frame Sirius, but she allowed it to happen.) After Voldemort showed up, she didn't have time to do anything except beg Voldemort to spare Harry's life.

In CoS, Tom Riddle asked Harry how he had survived. I don't have the book with me, but when Harry explained that his mother died to save him, Tom Riddle said something about Yes, your mother died to save you. That is very ancient magic and I should have thought of it. Tom seemed to understand immediately exactly what had happened so I don't think it was a newly invented complex charm. I think that the act of dying to save him is magic in and of itself, no additional charm was necessary.

One question I have is whether or not it is only a mother's love that works to protect someone. If Sirius or Ginny died to protect Harry, would it work the same as it did when Lily died?

[Peter]

I find the theory just as good as any other theories, though what make me belive more in it than other theories?
Its your "link" that intrest me, it suits good for the "plot."
Though, Killing a person greater will make it survive, killing it worse will make it die?
Thats the only logical error I could find. Though its seems allright, thant its a "torture" prosess?

[TheShadow]

I can't think of good theorys. I'm rubbish at them so I just go along with other peoples. :)

[Sarah]

Originally posted by ReLupin
In CoS, Tom Riddle asked Harry how he had survived. I don't have the book with me, but when Harry explained that his mother died to save him, Tom Riddle said something about Yes, your mother died to save you. That is very ancient magic and I should have thought of it. Tom seemed to understand immediately exactly what had happened so I don't think it was a newly invented complex charm. I think that the act of dying to save him is magic in and of itself, no additional charm was necessary.


Hm, but if it weren't that complex wouldn't Voldemort have thought about it beforehand? Of course if it was ancient magic it probably never even occurred to him that Lily would try it.

As for whether it had to be a mother's love or not I believe so. I think Dumbledore said a mother's love was a strong protection or something along those lines...

Lews, I like your theory and I agree with some of it. I do believe that Harry's own powers came into play. I doubt a charm/ancient spell could have stopped the AK on its own. I think that even though Harry was only a baby his power was activiated out of neccessity.

I was about to mention how Voldemort could still talk to snakes, but TSH beat me to it. I don't think Harry has sucked any powers from Voldemort, but perhaps he already had them? The fact that this boy would have that power as well probably didn't sit to well with Voldemort.

The link is a sure thing that we all know about. I just hope it is enough to help Harry in the future.

[Kneazle]

Originally posted by Sarah
Hm, but if it weren't that complex wouldn't Voldemort have thought about it beforehand? Of course if it was ancient magic it probably never even occurred to him that Lily would try it.
Not necessarily. He keeps repeating how foolish his mistake was in GoF:

"His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not forseen. . . . I could not touch the boy."

"His mother left apon him the traces of her sacrifice. . . . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it . . . but no matter. I can touch him now."

"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself."

[ReLupin]

Excellent point, Kneazle. Sometimes even powerful dark wizards simply forget things. Voldemort didn't expect Lily to be willing to die to save Harry since he never had a parent that would have loved him that much. At the moment that he decided to kill her, he simply didn't think about the effect of his action.

[Emma]

I agree with all of you. All I know is that I need book 5 NOW. All the theries are wonderful. The more I read the More I wonder about it tho.

[Alizeseeker27]

Wow Lews :wow: and people think that I have an overactive imagination! I couldn't have come up with a theory like that if I had eternity to think about it! I am very impressed!!! ;) Even though I don't completly agree with the theory I think that it is totally possible. I also think that it's possbile that Voldemort didn't think Lily would sacrifice herself because he knew he before that night. No, not in a romantic way :love: but in a sense that maybe she was a spy for dumbledore like snape :??: Or maybe I am just hooked on the thought of lily knowing voldemort. Who knows? :rolleyes:

[pasalita]

Yet again, another thread I can't believe I haven't posted in!

LewsTherin, I love this theory! It's not hairbrained at all because it attributes Harry with, as you've shared with me before, a magic all his own; a new form of magic that can revitalize the wizarding world. The One that will introduce a new era into the wizarding world, that will pre-empt new discoveries...

I dig it. :D

[Tinkie]

Very interesting theory Lews, but as other people have done, i will have to disagree with some of your points. what i think is that what happened with Lily was quite accidental. she looked too terrified and she pleaded with voldemort not to touch harry. and maybe she knew that harry was really powerful, but she wouldnt risk it would she. andd as Kneazle pointed out, voldemort himself admitted his mistake more than once.
but i think that it was not only her sacrifice that made the curs rebounce, but also the fact that Harry was powerful. Now about the transferral of powers, well i dont know

[pasalita]

Originally posted by LewsTherin
As for Lily being too surprised. Consider this. AK is supposed to be final and unstoppable, and the proof is very clear in that only Harry ever survived it. Now, I ask you, could he have survived without the counter-charm being previously prepared or at the very least, thought about? I doubt it. I think Lily knew Voldemort would come, and had prepared for it. Her apparent panic was simply shock in that her husband had just died, and a desperate hope that her counter-charm would going to work. Or she could have been buying time and distracting Voldy from what was really going on - he counter-charm.


Yet, again, my thoughts exactly. Of course, this is just me, but I feel that to doubt the idea of the existence of the counter charm (rather than a counter curse) is to doubt Lily's abilities as a witch and as a key player in the witches/wizards trying to put an end to Voldemort's terror. As LewsTherin said, her panic could have been a desperate hope the the counter-charm would work. After all, how else could she be sure but at that moment? She couldn't exactly practice the charm beforehand, considering the probable requirements for the charm to work successfully and thoroughly did not come to pass until that very night.

Also, to add to LewsTherin's support of the idea of the counter charm, Tom Riddle in CoS actually qualifies the notion that Lily DID use a counter charm. Thus, the wording is not so much of an oddity when, in GoF, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) claims that no counter curse exists to counter the AK. BUT, as used by Lily, and qualified by Voldemort himself (a la Tom Riddle), a counter charm could block the AK.

Why Crouch Jr. wouldn't mention that in their lesson, and why isn't it common knowledge? Because, if to follow LewsTherin's theory, it was only used successfully by the person who honed and discovered it: Lily Potter. And, well, she isn't quite able to record her findings at the moment, can she? :D

[TheSortingHat]

Very well stated, Pasalita. I agree with you, and again would like to expound on your statements.

Originally posted by Pasalita
Also, to add to LewsTherin's support of the idea of the counter charm, Tom Riddle in CoS actually qualifies the notion that Lily DID use a counter charm. Thus, the wording is not so much of an oddity when, in GoF, Crouch Jr. (as Moody) claims that no counter curse exists to counter the AK. BUT, as used by Lily, and qualified by Voldemort himself (a la Tom Riddle), a counter charm could block the AK.


I would think that Crouch, a Death Eater, would purposely neglect to mention the existence of a counter-charm, should he have known of it. This would not only fufill his duty as a teacher to increase the respect of a student of the power of the curse, it would also make them fear the curse - and its users - more. Thus, he was already helping the Dark Lord to rule by fear over citizens of Britain.

Pasalita again
Why Crouch Jr. wouldn't mention that in their lesson, and why isn't it common knowledge? Because, if to follow LewsTherin's theory, it was only used successfully by the person who honed and discovered it: Lily Potter. And, well, she isn't quite able to record her findings at the moment, can she?

Also, she wouldn't have had anyone to practice it on...

TheSortingHat

[Sinistra]

That's one amazing theory, Lews.

Lily's sacrifice was based in love, the most powerful magic of all. Nothing more should have been needed. That's the ancient magic, and Voldemort isn't a guy who thinks about love a lot. Not at all, so love-based charms would not be things he would remember first. I wonder if he ever killed another mother and child? It is certainly probable. But Harry is the ONLY wizard to have survived. Ever. So it does stand to reason that something extra "helped" Harry along in surviving Voldy's curse. I think it was a combination of Lily's sacrifice, something she did additionally (other than dying to save her son--i.e. some charm) and possibly Harry's natural abilities.

Lily may have done a few charms herself over the days and weeks they knew Voldy was after them. It would be sensible to have additional protections, apart from the Fidelius charm.

But I do think the link was forged between Harry and Voldy by the curse that failed. That's big magic, and it just seems sensible.

[LewsTherin]

OK, I think I've finally got some concrete proof to support my theory.

I was watching the DVD yesterday and it brought something to my attention - at the end of PS, Dumbledore tells Harry why Voldy couldn't touch him. This is of course, because of Lily's sacrifice and the love that was tranfered into his skin. Now, here's the thing. There were no witnesses to the murder of the Potters, so how did DD know this?

So, the way I see it, we have three scenarios:

1. DD knew about the counter-charm Lily was preparing to use and knew that Voldy would attack them. Following this line of logic, we can assume the Potters also knew. This is how he knew that the counter-charm involved love, since he probably helped Lily to come up with it.

2. There was a witness, and this witness told DD what happened.

3. Because Harry survived, people have just assumed that his mother sacrificed herself for her son. DD heard this, put two and two together, and arrived at the conclusion that her love must have saved him.

Number 2 we can discount immediately. We know the AK curse that Voldy used destoryed the house, thus, any witness would not have survived.

Number 3 involves too much guesswork, and DD could not have been certain that it was Lily's love that saved Harry.

Hence, the only option that works is no 1. There is proof for this, as it mentions somewhere in the books that the Potters knew Voldy was trying to get at them, and hence, DD knew as well. Thus, this proves that the Potters knew Voldy was coming and had prepared for it. In other words, that night, neither James nor Lily were surprised, in fact, they knew exactly what was happening - and Voldemort had walked into a trap.
Their apparent distress was just an act, and the counter-charm Lily used was prepared. Her love, provided the power for it to work.

If you disagree, think about this. We know from Moody/Crouch Jr that the AK curse is unstoppable and kills anything. Yet Harry survived. Now here's the thing, the most common theory is that Lily in her distress and panic, somehow produced a magic that saved Harry, and the fact that it worked is attributed to love. It's a very noble idea, but it can't work. Here's why. It would have had to be a random event - that she somehow produced the correct magic to not only save Harry and block the AK, but to make it rebound as well. That's based heavily on chance, especially since she was (apparently) panicked. But, a central theme to Harry Potter is that our decisions determine where we end up - a random chance undermines that. Thus, to say that she was lucky, contradicts a central theme. JKR would not do that.

And one more thing. If you knew someone was after the life of your child, would you not prepare to defend him/her? Would you not do everything humanly possible to protect that child? I put my theory to my mother and she said just that - because Lily loved Harry, she prepared a charm she was shure would save him, loving him enough to go through with it even though she knew she was going to die. That is real love, and that is what powered it.

So, in conclusion, what the above proves is that Lily's sacrifice was prepared, and was meant to do what it did - save Harry and rebound and hurt/kill Voldemort. It was not chance, and it was not simply an act of a mother's love - it was planned, with more love and care than any random act.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Great post, LewsTherin! What a remarkable mind you have!

I've taken my theorizing a slightly different direction. Everyone assumes that Lily could not have practiced the ancient magic counter-charm and tested it because that would involve using the Avada Kedavra curse, which is unlawful. If she failed, her test would kill. That would be unethical, and Lily would not have risked another human life, even though it might save her son.

But what if Lily practiced her counter-charm on an animal? Not any animal would do for this "experiment"-- it would need to be a magical animal, and an animal that she loved, in order for the charm to have a similar effect to using it on a person, a toddler, her son. Many have theorized that Crookshanks may have been Lily's pet. As we know, Crookshanks is part kneazle, a magical member of the cat family. Lily may have taken Crookshanks as her pet when she entered Hogwarts, so she would have loved this furry friend who had been with her ten or more years. Perhaps Lily practiced the counter-charm on Crookshanks, and Crookshanks survived the test project.

Even with a successful trial, Lily still might be authentically panicky when confronted with Voldemort. Voldemort's Avada Kedavra curse would be more powerful than her own, but Lily's love for Harry also would be more powerful than her love for Crookshanks. Those differences may have been proportional, so that all worked to protect Harry.

If that happened to be the case, that would put Crookshanks in a very interesting role, and be a further reason why Crookshanks wanted to belong to Hermione, to be near Harry. But that's another theory....

[Cat]

Panic is the condition that pure chance thrives in. Lily panicked, causing a situation of remarkable chance. Well, panic isn't fair to say. She was frightened and her actions were of desparate hope but an act of panic sounds more hap-hazard. But there was, apparantly, a very old and forgotten kind of magic. The kind that Dumbledore would bother to know about. If somebody studies the circumstances of a total mystery a piece of rare knowledge is a treasure to have. Which explains to me how Dumbledore knew what happened, what with sacrifice being the only way and all.

Of course any parent would do everything in their power to save their endangered child. They did. We know that they didn't hand out invitations to their home at any rate. Remember all the secret keeper business? A very complex charm that could have been performed by Lily if you want.

I'm not remotely convinced. You proof is still ambiguous, I'm afraid. The questions could have many different answers. I won't be convinced at all until the words of the books contrary themselves by J.K Rowling only. But that's just me who never, ever anticipates theories happening.

[LewsTherin]

Thanks for the compliment HogwartsChaplain, and Cat, I agree, my proof is ambiguous, but you gotta admit - it's not bad considering what I have to go on.:D

[Ozma]

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain
I agree with you there, Cat!

I wonder how much of what happened was because of charm work, "unfocused magic," and a mother's love.

Following what both Cat and Chaplain have said, perhaps Lily's own inheret Charm ability amplified her own desperation... unplanned; herself being the conduit for the 'ancient magic,' and Harry the reciever.

The Potter's were hidden because they must have known Voldemort was searching for them, or that they (or harry) were in danger. But like other's have said, they trusted Peter, and I think Voldemort's arrival was a surprise. Therefore, when Voldemort confronted Lily, she was unprepared... but ready and willing to sacrifice her own life for that of her son's, regardless - a selfless act of true love and devotion, a mother's sacrifice. Whether she thought her death to be futile or not, Lily wanted to protect her son, and that protection was granted by her own compassion.

[Prongs]

Fantastic idea Lews, but can I see your imagination work some more by challenging your theory?

I made a new post in another thread about the images that came out of Voldy's wand during book 4. Nothing came out of it for Harry acquiring his scar. Does this mean his AK spell was negated? Or never took place?

Give me your ideas.

[owl post 1992]

i think Lily recited something like you do in modern magic which her death triggered like swishing the wand during charms to make the feather fly but i don't think Harry is all powerful because he couldn't even do a simple summoning charm whithout extreme help from Hermione. i think Liliy Potter is Godric Gryffindor's heir which is off topic so i wil stop

[Sam]

Originally posted by dumbleedore
Voldemort seems to have, in his pursuit of the dark arts, forgotten a few things.
In CoS, Tom Riddle forgot about the healing powers of Phoenix's.
In GoF, Voldemort realises that he made a mistake overlooking the 'ancient magic'.
Could there be more that he has forgotten? Could Lily's sacrifice have been a combination of ancient and new magic? Things are starting to connect in my brain...

I am very much doubting that Harry managed to stop AK by himself. I doubt that magical powers would be fully developed in a one-year-old. He might have had some power in him, but most of it came from Lily's spells. But now that Harry does have formed powers, by the end of book seven they are going to be very strong, strong enough to over come Voldemort.

Just a few thoughts.

I think that Voldemort forgot about these simple pieces (and not so simple) pieces of magic simply because of arrogance. He thought that besides Dumbledore, he was the greatest of the age-but when he came across the true greatest of the age, his powers faltered.

I have always held the belief that Harry is more powerful than Dumbledore and Voldemort-and Dumbledore loves this. He is pleased to be teaching and mentoring Harry.

I do think that Harry couldhave been powerful enough to stop Voldemort. Why else would he come after the Potters? It's never been assumed that they were Aurors or anything. We've only heard that they were Head Boy and Girl.

This is an EXCELLENT theory. It connects a lot of things that I was thinking on my own.:clappy:

[LewsTherin]

Originally posted by Prongs
Fantastic idea Lews, but can I see your imagination work some more by challenging your theory?

I made a new post in another thread about the images that came out of Voldy's wand during book 4. Nothing came out of it for Harry acquiring his scar. Does this mean his AK spell was negated? Or never took place?

Give me your ideas.
Well, thanks for the compliment.:o I think the "shadows" that came out of Voldy's wand were curses that completed or worked. Thus, they had definition and could be seen. The one used on Harry, backfired and (apparently) struck Voldemort, so it didn't show up. Or, maybe, the next person out of the wand may have been Voldemort himself - it did claim his body after all. But, I think that the spell was negated since it didn't really complete or do what it was designed to do.

[Sam]

Originally posted by LewsTherin
I think the "shadows" that came out of Voldy's wand were curses that completed or worked. Thus, they had definition and could be seen. The one used on Harry, backfired and (apparently) struck Voldemort, so it didn't show up. Or, maybe, the next person out of the wand may have been Voldemort himself - it did claim his body after all. But, I think that the spell was negated since it didn't really complete or do what it was designed to do.

If the curse on Harry had struck Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort's "shadow" be the first one we saw- instead of the "shadow" of the Muggle, Frank? I mean, the curse must have worked to some extent, so why didn't we see Voldemort, himself (or his shadow) come out of the energy between the connected wands?

[LewsTherin]

Sam, forgive my ignorance, but wasn't the order that the "shadows" came out - cedric, frank, that witch (I forgot her name), James, and Lily. Hence, Voldemort would have been next, but the connection was terminated before that. Anyway, that's off topic. Sorry.

[pasalita]

Originally posted by Sam
If the curse on Harry had struck Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort's "shadow" be the first one we saw- instead of the "shadow" of the Muggle, Frank? I mean, the curse must have worked to some extent, so why didn't we see Voldemort, himself (or his shadow) come out of the energy between the connected wands?

You know, Sam – I think that this is an excellent question!

Hm. I would have to say that the reason Voldemort’s “shadow” doesn’t emerge from his wand during Priori Incantatem is because he hasn’t necessarily died, especially in the ways the others had died. It’s clear that the others died body and soul. But, Voldemort has been able to, with the help of some very obscure Dark Magic, preserve his soul outside of a tangible body by:

1.) Becoming a symbiant with Quirell in tPS;

2.) Leaving his 16-year-old “spirit” in a diary in CoS with the purpose that, if the right person found it, could siphon the reader’s life force in order to replenish his own;

3.) Somehow, with the help of Pettigrew and Nagini, performed another type of Dark Magic that placed his soul in an infantile body, which serves as a vessel until the end of GoF, when he ultimately performs a type of reincarnation spell for an adult body.

To sum it all up, his soul is preserved, though his body has “perished.”

Just my two sickles. ;D

[Sam]

Great. That makes perfect sense.

I have always thought that Voldemort is more of a memory or a specter(sp?) than a man. I wonder why he's trying to cheat death?

Do you think he had some sort of disease or something? Or was he even human enough to have disease?

Anyway, back on subject...

poke:

[Sam]

Originally posted by LewsTherin
Sam, forgive my ignorance, but wasn't the order that the "shadows" came out - cedric, frank, that witch (I forgot her name), James, and Lily. Hence, Voldemort would have been next, but the connection was terminated before that. Anyway, that's off topic. Sorry.
You're right. Thanks for pointing it out.:D

[cannonFan]

Originally posted by LewsTherin
Sam, forgive my ignorance, but wasn't the order that the "shadows" came out - cedric, frank, that witch (I forgot her name), James, and Lily. Hence, Voldemort would have been next, but the connection was terminated before that. Anyway, that's off topic. Sorry.

Orginally posted by Sam
You're right. Thanks for pointing it out.

Auctally.. not right. First, Voldemort should have been after the witch (Bertha Jorkins) and before Harry's parents. Second, the order out of wand was Lily and than James. It was James-->Lily in the first printings (as late as the 6th inthe USA), but was corrected in later printings of GoF.

[Sirius Black]

But Voldemort wasn't dead, he became a shadow, still undead, he didn't have enough human left in him to die, so he didn't die, he was still alive, but bodiless.

[Sinistra]

Voldemort's body might not have come out, but surely there would have been something to "mark" that spell. After all various screams etc. came out, to represent the Cruciatus Curses that the wand had cast. Maybe it's another mistake. And maybe it was represented by screams, because Voldemort did say it was "pain beyond pain."

[Sam]

Originally posted by Sinistra
And maybe it was represented by screams, because Voldemort did say it was "pain beyond pain."

I forgot about that....
I wonder if Voldemort can even feel pain after the curse bounced back.

Thoughts-anyone?

[Sirius Black]

HE most probably did feel pain, a curse to kill, he didn't die, so there must have been some knid of pain.

[matahari toad]

The pain thing: Vol says so himself "Ah pain beyond pain...I remember only forcing myself...to exist..." And then perhaps it didn't come up in Priori Incantatem because Vol's "more-or-less-death" was not a direct consequence of the spell that issued from his wand. On the other hand it didn't have a real effect on Harry so there would be nothing to "echo" in Priori Incantatem. Though to be honest I think JK just forgot...:whistle: :whistle:

[godricpotter]

i dont no if there has been a thread for this but couldnt the reason volderment killed lily because first she tried to stop him and then he though she is only some mudblood so he killed her and then over looked her protection over harry becuase she was jus a mere mudblood

[owl post 1992]

there is no topic about Lily's death but i believ book 2 said why Voldemort Killed Liliy and book 3 goes with the Lily died to save Harry

[Crashcatto]

he killed her because she was in the way of him killing Harry. She sacrificed herself for Harry.
The bigger question is why he didn't want to kill her in the first place.....

[Cat]

I agree with Crashcatto.

I'm also fully convinced (until the books remove my smugness) that it was Harry he was particularly interested in that day. James and Lily stood in the way of that plan. Although they were the two that lost their lives I don't believe that Lily and James Potter were the ones Voldemort was so eager to personally meet.

But it's interesting that he says Lily needn't have died. He seems to think nothing of James and in Goblet of Fire he killed the 'spares' Cedric Diggory and Frank Bryce without even making a sport of letting them go!

[Pizza In A Cup]

this is kinda off-topic, but I think there is more to Jame's death than we think. All we know is that he tried to stop Voldemort. But, the only reason I think there is more to it is because in the movie, it didn't show Jame's death, only Lily's...

[Amy]

Lily died to save Harry because she wouldn't let go of him so Voldemort could murder him. Harry heard their deaths through the dementors in book three. "Stand aside, you silly girl!" He didn't want to hurt Lily for some reason (hmm.... how oddly out of character...) but she wouldn't comply, so he did.
It would have made sense for him to murder her, she was a powerful witch after all. Besides, she was the only living person other than Sirius at the time who knew who had betrayed tham. Wouldn't it have been better to make a clean sweep of it? That way Pettigrew could have kept passing him information.
He wasn't worried about Sirius spilling the beans. Sirius was next on his hit list, that's why Sirius was planning on going into hiding himself. But that brings us back to the issue of why he didn't want to kill Lily...

[Sinistra]

That's a good point, Amy. When Voldemort found James and Lily, it was then apparent Peter had betrayed them, willingly or unwillingly. Though I bet Voldy taunted James before he was murdered.

But why he told Lily to stand aside and said that she needen't have died???????????? Maybe we'll find out in OoP.

Someday.

[kgonekrazy]

Maybe Voldemort had a thing for her. Even Dark Lords want a pretty lady on there arm. :love:

OK seriously.. maybe Lily was of some value to him. She knew something or could do something to help him.

[Sirius Black]

THere is already a topic discussing this, though not directly, anyways, it's also in the great hall, but I think one of Voldemort's faithful deatheaters liked lily, so just for the sake of that deatheater, he spared her at first, but she was coming in the way so he just killed her because he is so merciless. That deatheater might have been snape.

[kgonekrazy]

I don't think that Voldy would spare Lily's life just as favor to a deatheater. It just doesn't sit right with me. Voldemort cares about one person and one person only, himself. The only way he would consider sparing Lily is if there was value in it for him. I think once we find out more about Lily we will have a better idea about what she could offer him. What ever it was it was probably minor because he did ultimately kill her.

[Fuchsia]

I don't think it was from any particular knowledge of Harry
himself but just that he was a Potter.

[Tarawyn]

The death of James was rather vague. The only information we've been given is that he died in attempt to hold Voldemort off, without any mention of whether Voldemort wanted him dead or not--and I don't think that's mere coincidence. There has to be more than that. Rowling wouldn't leave anything so vague without a reason.

Lily's death...we don't neccesarily know if Voldemort really intended to kill her or not. He has no compassion, so this wasn't an act of mere pity, and if he didn't want to kill her, than he wouldn't have. kgonekrazy is right--whatever he wished to spare her for has to have been minor, though I wouldn't think a love affair would have detered Voldie at all. We'll see.

[Sirius Black]

If she had value for him, he would have probably not kill her, but he did. But what I really want to know is why did he want to kill HARRY????
It just doesn't make any sense. What could a 1 year old baby have done to him. IF Voldemort's reign had ended, it would be probably because someone went looking for him and killed him. Not because he went looking for someone and got killed(not exactly, but became a shadow). And that someone happened to be a 1 year old baby.

[kgonekrazy]

I think that Voldy felt Harry would grow up to be a threat. There might have been some sorta prediction that Harry would be Voldemorts down fall. So of course Voldy wanted to kill Harry while he was still a baby to young to hurt him.

[Kneazle]

I agree.

Lily. She "needn't have died". I think Voldemort was attached to her somehow. Not necessarily in love with her, but it doesn't seem right that he wanted her to live so that she could be of some use to him. If so, I don't think he would have asked her-- he could have spared her by force? He was giving her a choice. It was unreasonable of him to imagine that she'd ever forsake Harry, but I think he may have been proving a point of some sort.

[G-Thugg]

I definitely think that there is something more to why Voldie didn't kill Lily, and we may find out more about it in the next book, when we learn more about Lily Potter. One of the big mysteries :)

[samwitch]

Originally posted by kgonekrazy
I don't think that Voldy would spare Lily's life just as favor to a deatheater. It just doesn't sit right with me. Voldemort cares about one person and one person only, himself. The only way he would consider sparing Lily is if there was value in it for him. I think once we find out more about Lily we will have a better idea about what she could offer him. What ever it was it was probably minor because he did ultimately kill her.

i totally agree with this. voldemort wouldn't spare anyone... he was the one who inspired random kilings for fun... i don't think sparing lily would be something out of kindness. he wanted something from her. a lot of people have suspected james as "heir of gryffindor" but could it possibly be lily? the wizarding blood finally kicking up in her for a reason? who knows... maybe voldemort wanted a child with lily, to create a super wizard :rolleyes: or something? come on... blood of slytherin AND gryffindor. yeah, that's pretty far fetched.

[kgonekrazy]

I like the idea of an heir. After all if Voldemort could not achieve immortality then the next best thing would be a heir to carry on his "noble" work. And who better to bear his child then the mother of the one wizard who was foreseen to be powerful enough to cause his down fall.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Someone is looking for this topic, so... *bump* :)

[Thayet]

Oh no. The *bump* is returning.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Well, I'm not very good at linking, and it's easier than saying, "Look on page 5 of the Great Hall threads...."

[Potterjohn]

good theorys and i know why voldemort didnt think about the counter charm: he turned dumb
:devil: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh voldemort is after me!!

[Lioness87]

That is a very possible theory, but I agree with some of the others when I say that I doubt that Lily performed a charm to protect Harry/kill Voldy. I tend to side with the more simple theory that James and Harry were heirs of Godric Griff. and that is why Voldy wanted them dead. Lily didn't need to die that night, but she did in an attempt to save her son.

[Fuchsia]

I think Voldie was lying about Lily 'not needing to die'. He would've killed her after Harry. She must've known that at any rate. She doesn't seem the type to save herself over her son like some people might.

[medboy76]

Sirius Black brings up the most important question to be answered: Why did Voldemort want to kill Harry? We know that the answer to this question will be pivotal in the remaining books because Dumbledore tips us off to it at the end of book 1. It's the first question out of Harry's mouth, but Dumbledore says he cannot tell him and that he'll get the answer when he's older and ready.

It's doubtful that it was a random murder attempt. If this was the case he would have just killed the entire family and not worried with telling Lily to get out of the way.

It seems clear to me that Voldemort had some type of premonition or apparation that made him feel James and Lily's son would bring about his downfall. Perhaps Voldemort was a master of Divination. I also get the feeling he might have been a former teacher (perhaps of Divination) and head of Slytherin house at Hogwarts when Dippet was headmaster and Dumbledore taught Transfiguration and was head of Gryffindor house. This would have given him easy access to all of the Slytherin students that eventually became Death Eaters. It seems like entire classes of Slytherin students went on to serve him at one point or other.

The one thing that really perplexes me is why Voldemort seems to take Harry so lightly. I can understand that he thought he could easily kill Harry as a baby, but at the end of book 4 he seems to think Harry is weak and no match for him. It's true that Harry's only a fourth year and should be an easy kill for a Dark Lord, but he'd already been defeated by Harry more than once and he obviously feared him enough to make him a target as a baby. I seriously doubt we'll see him take Harry so lightly in the next three books.

BTW, could someone please link me to other threads that discuss the issue of why Voldemort tried to kill Harry? Perhaps a thread that goes into it a little more than this one. :)

[Ashkins]

Voldemort had been establishing power for 13 years when he encountered Harry... In all that time he could have killed James and Lily.. but didn't.. He waited till they had a son and that son was 15 months old. (( and on Halloween))

There IS something more to it.

[Weatherby]

I think Voldemort meant to kill all three of them.
He's a twisted guy. He'd enjoy watching someone give up their own child for themselves.
It's not a credit to her I'm sure.
He didn't sound like someone in love with her when he re-laid the story to Harry.

The Nazis had a sect called 'the Sonderkomando' at Auschwitz. They'd get the prisoners to kill their own family for a couple of extra months. That's a sick way of torturing someone before you kill them. It might even be worse than dying right away.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by Weatherby
I think Voldemort meant to kill all three of them.
He's a twisted guy. He'd enjoy watching someone give up their own child for themselves.

That's an interesting possibility. If Lily was going to die anyway, though, would that have made her sacrifice less genuine? Or did it only matter that she believed her death could save Harry?

[Weatherby]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
That's an interesting possibility. If Lily was going to die anyway, though, would that have made her sacrifice less genuine? Or did it only matter that she believed her death could save Harry?

It only mattered that she believed it..and it did save him!
There was nothing selfish in her motives.
We can't blame the victims anyway. It's not their fault they were put in the situtation where they have to choose something like that.

[Oddfellow]

That is something that I never truly understood. If Lilly was a mudblood, do the Slytherins not hate mudbloods (in general). Why was she spared? Knocking off a mudblood would not weighed heavily on Voldemort's conscience if there had not been some reason for her existence.
Perhaps there will be an oracle at Delphi explaination.

Liars Prosper.
-anonymous

[Camo]

do we know for sure Lily was a mudblood?

I was also wondering where in the books it says that lily need not to have died.

[medboy76]

It doesn't say straight up that Lily didn't need to die, but it implies as much. In the Dementor dreams, Voldemort tries to get Lily to move out of the way and seems completely disinterested in her. It's clear that his real target was Harry. I'm sure we'll be finding out why he wanted to kill Harry over the next three books because at the end of book one Dumbledore promises an answer to this question when Harry is older and ready.

[venus1818]

do we know for sure Lily was a mudblood?

As far as we know, yes. I don't think there is any reason to believe that she wasn't. There is a thread that goes into that subject, but I am not sure...

http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/topbanner/cat.gifhttp://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/topbanner/po.gif
http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/hp/cobanner.gif
http://www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou/hp/hubanner.gif
www.jamiefrost.co.uk/whoareyou

[Puffskein]

Tom Riddle says "Your mother needn't have died."

[medboy76]

I've looked through CoS and can't seem to find that line from Tom Riddle. What page is it on? I'm also not sure how the memory of Riddle would know that Lily didn't need to die since that was in his future. The only things that Riddle's memory seems to have known about his own future were what Ginny had told him. Ginny couldn't have known any details about the night Lily and James were killed.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by medboy76
I've looked through CoS and can't seem to find that line from Tom Riddle.

Maybe that's because the line is actually Voldemort's, from Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone. Harry has to explain to Tom what happened that night.

[Weatherby]

Voldemort lies. Of course he'd tell Harry she didn't need to die. Racking the boy with guilt is good fun.
I for one am not taking anything he says at face value.

[pasalita]

*bump*

[miri]

Could it have been that at this point Harry was simply concentrating too hard to notice some vague thing... a shadow of Voldy's body or his scar..? and then his parents came out and he had a hard enough time concentrating on the spell, and not them?

Do we know how long it was between ghostly figures coming out? Coz i dont think he WOULD miss it but one never knows...

Alternatively, could it be that because the magic was connected to both ppl in the brother-wand duel, that that particular spell wasnt shown? This would indicate that Harry did play an important part in the spell, as the wand chooses the wizard... even without his wand if his magic was of the same signature vibration/ whatever it is that makes them unique as his wand, the spell, being balanced between the 2 was neglected.

It could also be why the spell didnt work - an alternative to the wand-duel. Maybe somehow Lilly knew that, and she cast a charm to help him channel his powers? But i also think her death was necessary for it to work somehow - maybe she held Harrys' hand and channeled his magic? The spell killed her, but saved him, and coz she died to save him, yaddad yadda. But then it nearly sounds like Harry killed her? And how would Lilly know what wand he'd eventually have?

The wand-shop guy (cant remember his name) seems to have some sort of instinctive knowledge of what sort of wand will suit whom, even though he's rarely right first time. Could she have been his apprentice? Or could Harry have met Fawkes, stroked him,and sparks appeared? DD knew Voldy's wand had a feather of his; he may have mentioned this to Lilly?

Sorry I seem to have started galloping down a zillion possibilites! I just dont like leaving suggestions i can see the errors of... but then maybe other ppl can see supporting points for them!

So what do you think of the directions your idea's taking, sugarquill?

[miri]

eek! sorry LewsTheren! culdnt remember who'd started this thread and there's one by sugarquill called "Could Lilly have put a spell on Harry"! sorry! no offence intended!

[MadMagic]

This is the essential mystery in the series. What exactly were Voldemort's intentions for that night. And I think that we can trust Harry's dementor visions when we hear who is presumable Voldemort tell who we presume to be Lilly to get out of the way. Why didn't he just kill her instead of telling her to move. I think his goal was definately to kill Harry that night. And since we know Voldemort hates mudbloods, I don't know that I buy Lily being a mudblood. If she was why bother saying anything to her. This is a huge mystery and one that hopefully Dumbledore will vlear up when he decides to tell Harry everything.

[Sebastian06]

Originally posted by MadMagic (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=208794#post208794))
And since we know Voldemort hates mudbloods, I don't know that I buy Lily being a mudblood.


You watch your language! ;) :p

[MadMagic]

:D Whenever I type that word I feel like I am doing something bad. Just like when I type Voldemort I think to myself, "Ha, I'm not scared of your name". :p

[Animagi Girl]

Me 2, MadMagic! Weatherby makes a good point. Or maybe this is what we find out in the 5th book. I've heard so many theories on this subject, I have no clue what could be the truth. Maybe Harry was Gryffindor's heir through James, so Voldemort just wanted to kill the heirs. My two cents.

[amelio]

Originally posted by miri:
This would indicate that Harry did play an important part in the spell, as the wand chooses the wizard...It could also be why the spell didnt work

If this is so, then why did Voldemort's Cruciatus and Imperius spells work on Harry?

[Jessica]

Slightly off topic but I think that Trelawneys first prediction had somehting to do with V wanting to kill H. That being said, it makes sense, that Lily would try to come up with a plan on how to save Harry. What mother is just going to wait for the most horrible wizard in a century to come kill her kid.

I don't know that I agree that Harry himself had anything to do with the charm working but I do think that Lily had planned exactly what she was going to do here.

Also there is a lot of ancient magic going on. I get the impression that the ancient stuff is not very well known anymore but is very powerful. Maybe not anyone can do ancient magic. Very impressive if a muggle-born is able to. Could be evidence that she is more than she seems?

[miri]

amelio, Harry fought of those spells from the most evil guy this century (or half century - when did DD defeat the other one?). They killed many adult, experienced, strong wizards and witched. Either Harry's the strongest magician ever born, or they didn't work fully on him. I think the 2nd option's more credible.

jessicacarstens, I don't think being a muggle-born would influence ones ability to perform any kind of magic. It just requires knowledge.
But more than she seems how?

:)

[Jessica]

We don't really know much about ancient magic. All I'm saying is that it does not seem to be common knowledge. That is why Voldemort didn;t think of it because its not something that everyone knows that gets used everyday.

I would imagine that in old wizarding families some knowlegde might be passed down. I would think that the Malfoys, howver, would be too into new and modern to pass it on in their family. So it strikes me as strange that a muggle born whose entire knowledge of magic (we assume) comes from her seven years at Hogwarts would have the knowledge (not necesarily the ability) to perform this sort of magic.

[delemtri]

Fighting the Imperius Curse has nothing to do with how strong a magician you are but everything to do with, as Barty Crouch Jr. tells us, how strong your character is. And I'm relatively sure that Voldemort is hundreds of times stronger than Grindelwald.

I agree with those who say that Lily saving Harry's life was simply that - Lily dying for her son, and the ancient magic allowing him to live. But do you think this would have required some sort of invocation on her part? Was it an actual spell, or just a magical bond, like the life-debts or the ones that competitors in the Triwizard Tournament would have to fulfill?

[Jessica]

Like I said DD's reference to "ancient magic" makes me think that this was an intentional act.

I just don't think ancient magic rolls off the tip of the tongue (or wand in this case). I agree that she would have thought about how to save Harry and come up with a plan to do so.

[delemtri]

I don't think so. I don't think she expected Pettigrew to betray them. The ancient magic wasn't any magic that was done with the tongue or the wand - it was a magical bond, like a life-debt or the "binding magical contract" that insisted Harry compete in the Triwizard Tournament.

[Raven]

Hey!
I almost started a new thread on this subject, but then I decided to search first.
To the Orginal Poster, I love the theory, but I have my own.
I think it was love that saved Harry that night.
I'm sorry if the following sounds akward, I'm having trouble explaining this.
I think Lily was subjected to all three of the Unforgivable Curses. When Voldemort said, "Stand aside, you silly girl...stand aside, now...," (PoA, 179), that could be the Imperus curse. When Harry hears the other screams that could be because of the Cruciatus Curse. He probably did Imperio, then Crucio, then Imperio again. when she still refused to move away, he did Avada Kedavra on her.
saying things like, "Kill me. Don't kill Harry" may have help to invoke the protection. As we learned in GoF, not all spells are in latin.

[DocHollidaywe]

Originally posted by Kneazle (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=2388#post2388))
:wow: Your theory, it's quite fantastical. Wow. Excellent. :yup:

What do I think happened on that night? Well, just what we see in the books. I don't think that Lily had any real idea of what she was doing when she died for Harry. She just knew she'd protect him 'til the death. If she had some plan or if she knew that her sacrifice would end up doing, then I don't think she'd sound so very desperate when Voldemort attacked. She was screaming, pleading with Voldemort. "I'll do anything" "take me". . . I think that if she had the slightest idea about what would happen she would sound more resigned-- we know enough of her bravery to know she wouldn't go frantic.

Of course, that's based on my sketchy take of Lily's character. ;) It could be anything-- I just like the simple turn of events that's been presented so far. :) Dumbledore and Voldemort both accept it like that-- Voldemort even explains it and admits his mistake in overlooking it.


Thats about the best way to explain it

[angelofblade]

i think the magic that was use was perform before the death of harry parent. to protect him from death dumbledor knew this because the prodiction of a teacher at school told dumbledor that a powerful wizard would be born on that day.
vordormort kill harry mom but then try to kill harry this was not possible because of the magic that was use to protect him reflect vordormort power but this created a magical power between them.

[angelofblade]

snape was a death eater a spy for dumbledor he inform dumbledor that vordormort was after harry this

[Pucko]

If Lily used a charm to save Harry, it wasn't newly invented...Voldie knew about it and said he was foolish to overlook it...I like the story that Lily died to save Harry and that was what saved him..
It will probably be more complicated in the end though

[Scabbers]

My theory is this-

James Potter was a desendant of Godric Griffindor. As we know Voldermort is a desendant of Slaizaar Slytherin (sorry cant spell). Voldermorts parents were a witch and a muggle. So is it not possible to have one muggle child and one wizard child (the wizard beinging voldermort)? so what if voldermort sibling were to get married to another muggle and have kids these being pertunia and lily. Therefore lily would be part slytherin (and we know that its the way we act that determines which house you are put in). So when lily and james had harry, harry was a mix half griffindor and half slytherin. Voldermort did not want the slytherin blood line to be contaminated with griffindor blood so that is why he wanted to kill harry plus the insentive of the prophecy. He would also therefore want to kill james as he could just have another baby. He didnt want to kill lily because she was of slytherin blood and would be his neice. Also this would explain why the hat wanted to place harry in slytherin because when voldermort transfered his powers to harry that tip the half half balence of slytherin and griffindor to lean on the slytherin side slightly more.


so here would be the family tree = means marriage

Godric Griffindor Salizaar Slytherin
| |
| |
| Muggle (Tom Riddle) =Witch
| skipping a few generations here |
| <-- |
| |--------------|
| | |
| Muggle=Muggle Voldermort
| |
| |
| |-----------|
| | |
|------------------------------James potter =Lily Petunia
|
|
Harry



Hope this tree comes out right......

[dan_r]

Intresting theory... dont know whether i agree with it or not... but you never know

[Lily Evans]

I like it but Lizzy does not..... Lizzie is one of my best friends and she loves HP as well. mind explaining it?

[vickygirl4]

interesting, it would explain a lot . . . but, something in my gut just tells me that it isn't it. I maybe wrong though, who knows (other than JKR that is)?

[Vanilla Dream]

I like it, it's very interesting and well thought of but I still can't see it being true. I think it would just be too much.

[pasalita]

I've merged this thread (which has theorized on why Voldemort implies, in book 1, that he hadn't needed to kill Lily) to an old thread brought back to life from the Forbidden forest that delves into the topic. Enjoy!

[DobbysTeaCozy]

That's a neat theory.. I don't know if JKR really thought about that too much, though. *shrug*

[Sirius]

Well havent posted the whole thread but only the first couple of posts.

Here is my 2 cents about y. He wanted to Lilly to watch him kill harry and let her live as a reminder to all the other ppl how evil he really is.
Becasue Voldy does really liek when ppl suffer. As he already killed James and wa going to kill Harry who would servive to suffer the lost of James and Harry.
Where is the fun in killing ppl when they arent ppl left to morn about the lost.
As we know from Dumbledore dropping Harry of by the Dursley tha they where the only family left as far as we know atleast to morn about the lost of the family. But we also know they dont give a rats *** about the Potters.

So thast is maybe y he didnt wanted to kill Lilly.
But there can be a totally other reason 2 we all find out in book 6 **** where did i leave my time machine again.

On a other note Harry maybe have more family tho remember in the beginning of book 5 Dudley beats up a kids from 10 years old with the last name Evans. ( Uhm wasnt Lilly's last name Evans).
If this boy is a Wizard we dont know and if he is family we know either. As the ministery say's at Harry's trail there aren't more wizards in Little Whinging so we will just have to wait and see but knowing J.K.R. there always hints in the book and this must have been one. So who is this Evans guy and will we see him next year.

[youngheart23]

Scabbers, I think you're on to something there (and that little family tree is just great!). Before I got to your post, I was just about to say, what if somehow Voldemort and Lily were related and that's why he didn't want to kill her?

I just feel like there must be some type of family connection. Def. something to think about!

~Holly

[Sirius]

Originally posted by Scabbers (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=395249#post395249))
My theory is this-

James Potter was a desendant of Godric Griffindor. As we know Voldermort is a desendant of Slaizaar Slytherin (sorry cant spell). Voldermorts parents were a witch and a muggle. So is it not possible to have one muggle child and one wizard child (the wizard beinging voldermort)? so what if voldermort sibling were to get married to another muggle and have kids these being pertunia and lily. Therefore lily would be part slytherin (and we know that its the way we act that determines which house you are put in). So when lily and james had harry, harry was a mix half griffindor and half slytherin. Voldermort did not want the slytherin blood line to be contaminated with griffindor blood so that is why he wanted to kill harry plus the insentive of the prophecy. He would also therefore want to kill james as he could just have another baby. He didnt want to kill lily because she was of slytherin blood and would be his neice. Also this would explain why the hat wanted to place harry in slytherin because when voldermort transfered his powers to harry that tip the half half balence of slytherin and griffindor to lean on the slytherin side slightly more.


so here would be the family tree = means marriage

Godric Griffindor Salizaar Slytherin
| |
| |
| Muggle (Tom Riddle) =Witch
| skipping a few generations here |
| <-- |
| |--------------|
| | |
| Muggle=Muggle Voldermort
| |
| |
| |-----------|
| | |
|------------------------------James potter =Lily Petunia
|
|
Harry



Hope this tree comes out right......


Just thought of something i really think u are on to something but there is just one little problem Didnt Tom Riddles Mom die when he was born.
She just could give him a name and then she passed away.
Like the idea tho but there is just one snag or Voldermort and Lilly's mom are twins then it could be true.

[illuminati]

I like the idea of Lilly being of the same bloodline as Voldemort, but i have a feeling if anyone is of relations to Voldemort it will be Snape.

Not because he is an obvious choice ,by his attitude to Harry,but because i think the reason Lilly wasn't to be killed was because Snape had interest/feelings/or loved her in one way or another.

And yes, I think Voldemort didnt care about anyone one but himself including his "death eaters" however, he may have respected the whims of "death eater" that shared his bloodline. Taking this I could see why Lilly was to be spared.

Even tho in OotP he called her "filthy mudblood" he was also just made a fool of in front of everyone to only have her be the one to stand up for him.

This would take in effect why in GoF he said...

"...One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, I believe has left me forever.....he will be killed, of course..and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who as already reentered my service."

of course the coward would be Karkaroff
and the most loyal servant would be Crouch
and with Snape having the mark and not at the ressurection of Voldemort that would make him the "one who has left me forever"

I am thinking because Voldemort killed Lilly, Snape turned his back on I daresay "uncle" and came to DD. Which, would both account for the reason that Voldemort thought he had left him forever ,and the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape without question.

Also, i can see this reason why since he was the one Voldemort never thought would return to him and was to be killed, was taken back by the dark lord. Family ties can blind us to the truth of what someone is really up to. Seeing how Voldemort has misjudged the character and strengths of people so far how could it not be feasible of him to misjudge Snape and thinking he has come back to the fold forgiving him for killing Lilly.

[Oo bUMbLE bEE oO]

I like the theory that Lily is related to Voldemort ::shutter:: :D Did it ever say anywhere what color Voldemort's eyes is? Lol, just picking at air, but maybe! It's possible. Voldemort might also have just found it amusing that a mudblood like Lily would even think to try to fight off his attacks. He may have underestimated her ability. I don't think Snape is related to Voldemort but perhaps looked up to him at the time. I also think Snape and Lily have some history together or some connection.

[Tee Time]

I don't remember anything about the original color of V's eyes, but I do remember Tom Riddle saying in the COS that Harry even looked a bit like him.

[fallsauce]

Ok, what about if instead of lily's mother/father being V's sibling, maybe Tom Riddle (after he left V's mother) had another family, and somehow found out about Tom Riddle's other family. But then he probably wouldn't like them, would he? But it's still a possibility that he feels a little emotion to his half brother/sister's daughter.
BTW, this might also explain why petunia hates magic so much, what if she found out or witnessed V killing Tom Riddle and now thinks all wizards are to be feared of?

[Wakkachuta]

I've never believed that Voldemort is related to any of the Potters... including Lily. I also really detest the Lily-was-a-death-eater, Lily-was-an-animagus and Lily-is-Crookshanks theories. If Lily really was evil or related to Voldemort in some way, wouldn't Dumbledore ATLEAST know? And how could James not know that about his own wife? And, despite all of this, the whole concept that Voldemort is related to any of the other protagonists or even minor characters is far too much like Star Wars, and far too corny and predictable. Don't forget that JKR thrives in the unpredictable. For me, at least, that's what makes her books so exciting.

If, by some chance the Potters are related to the Riddles, it would probably be not unlike how the Weasleys and the Blacks are related... very distantly. And as for Lily, her parents are muggles.

So, why did Voldemort not want to kill Lily? Probably because he was so close to killing the person he so desperately wanted to kill that he didn't give two straws about what happened to Lily... until she prevented Voldemort from getting to Harry, that is.

[Koki]

I know I so thought we were going to find this out in book 5! But we didn't, but I don't think Voldemort wanted to kill her, if just that she didn't need to die, but she was is the way so he had to. I think we stil are going to find out more about lily. But we have to wait!

[Heir_of_Ravenclaw]

Yeah, wait until the next book comes which may be 2 years later! And Wakkachuta, you are saying that Lily can't have been related to Voldemort because James didn't know about it. But let me remind you, that Voldemort's father didn't have any idea that his wife was a witch!!!

[Drusilla]

It's probably because of the prophecy:he wanted to kill Harry,while ensuring at the same time that James and Lily couldn't have another child who could be his downfall-for that he must've thought he'd only have to kill one of them,overlooking the possibility of Lily's being pregnant just as he didn't think of the protection she'd leave Harry in her own sacrifice.

[The Forsaken]

I don't buy Voldemort not wanting to kill Lily due to them being related. Voldemort already showed us how he cares so little for family when he killed his father, stepmother, and half brother somewhere between 17 and 20. Besides Tom said he was the only living heir of Salazar Slytherin. Voldemort would have had this well researched; I mean he's a thorough kind of guy. Also Voldemort's mother died in childbirth and thus Tom would have no 1st realtions that are witches or wizards.

[Evan Rosier]

hi ppl, now i got a new idea, while i was reading the chapter of Grim Deafeat in PoA. I found that when Voldy comes to kill Harry, James first takes over him and fights a courageous battle as said by Voldy at de end of GoF or maybe at the end of SS. Now he told Lily that Voldy has come and James was giving time to Lily to take Harry nd run away while he holds Voldy. Now when Voldy comes over to kill Harry, y wasnt Lily gone yet??? or if she couldnt escape, den y did she plead with him and and didnt fight to save her son??? there are loops in this scene. Y was she assking for Mercy from Voldy when she Knew very well he had never shown mercy to his enemies but only to his faithful servants???????????? but i dont get it... Can anyone help me here? Plzz....

[azkaban]

i believe that in one of the next books, there will be an entire chapter about the night james&lily potter were killed and harry got his scar. and we'll figure out everything.
but i believe the reason vodlemort went to godric's hollow that night was to kill harry because of the prophecy. but james stood up against him, he, of course, didn't let voldemort to get in the house and kill his son. he duelled with him. that's what voldemort, himself, said in the fifth book. he said that james fought him bravely. we know that james was a very bright wizard and he achieved to escape from voldemort three times before. that makes me sure that james was good at duelling.
but in the end, voldemort killed him and went further in the house for harry. but then, he found lily. lily, for some reason, didn't try to fight him like james. maybe she wasn't a fighter like james at all. but maybe she was trying to save time to put a protection charm on harry. maybe she knew that if she sacrified herself, it'd be harry's rescue. i don't believe that her sacrifice was such a coincidence that became harry's rescue. i believe she knew that would happen if she died to save her son, not if she tried to duel and repel voldemort because in the end she was gonna lose like james did, so i think that's why she tried to save harry by a charm.
i believe voldemort didn't inted to kill her at first because she didn't resist him, she didn't try to stop him by duelling. and voldemort thought that lily wouldn't make any trouble in his attempt to kill harry. he thought that lily was just a muggle, a mudblood who wasn't worth spending any energy on.
because we know that voldemort couldn't think of that ancient charm which could save harry. he tells that to his death eaters in book5. and he didn't think that lily needed to die because she didn't resist him. but when lily begged him and told him to have mercy (maybe she was just trying to distract him in order to put her spell on harry) voldemort got impatient and killed her, too, to make her get out of the way.
i reckon that's how lily&james potter got killed by voldemort.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

i believe voldemort didn't inted to kill her at first because she didn't resist him, she didn't try to stop him by duelling. and voldemort thought that lily wouldn't make any trouble in his attempt to kill harry. he thought that lily was just a muggle, a mudblood who wasn't worth spending any energy on.
because we know that voldemort couldn't think of that ancient charm which could save harry. he tells that to his death eaters in book5. and he didn't think that lily needed to die because she didn't resist him. but when lily begged him and told him to have mercy (maybe she was just trying to distract him in order to put her spell on harry) voldemort got impatient and killed her, too, to make her get out of the way.


But why didn't Voldemort just stun her and then kill Harry. I mean, that would take even less energy than calling up whatever you need inside yourself to do AK. I think Lily had to know something really important and only when Voldemort realized that he would have to kill her to get to Harry - that she would duel if he tried to just stun her - that he killed her.

[Popkin]

Fact:
It says in the prophesy that Lily and James have thrice defied Voldemort before their final encounter with him. So, when Voldemort goes to kill Harry (and apparently also James) he and Lily have met before.

Speculation:
In one of their very earliest meetings, before Voldemort has built up his natural immunity to curses and death, maybe Lily has a real opportunity to kill him. Or, perhaps James does, and Lily convinces James to spare him. I think I like that scenario better, since James seems more the type who would be prepared to kill - righteously, or even vengefully. I can see James poised with his wand pointed at Voldemort's heart while the Dark Lord begs for a second chance. James has no intention of giving it to him, but he hears the pleas of his beloved, and his heart softens. Now Lily has saved Voldemort's life, and he owes her big time.

In time, Lily becomes aware of the immense danger her son Harry is in, so she and James go into hiding. But she can never rest. She constantly researches the problem until, finally, she discovers the ancient magic which will protect Harry and insure Lord Voldemort's downfall. When Pettigrew betrays the Potters and reveals their secret location to Voldemort, Lily has prepared a charm which will enable her to transfer Voldemort's life debt from herself to Harry. This is the magic which Voldemort should have remembered, but in the heat of the moment, with his goal of immortality almost realized, he overlooks all the signs which Lily cannot hide from him.

When Voldemort says Lily needn't have died, that is absolutely true. When he goes to the Potters, owing Lily a life debt, he knows he can't kill her without her permission. But why would she give him that? Who in their right mind would give someone the permission to end their life? Knowing that, all he needs to do is get past her to her little brat and get rid of him. That shouldn't be too hard. Imagine LV's surprise when she offers to trade her life for her baby's. The fool! Why does she make it so easy? What Voldemort doesn't realize is that when Lily begs him to take her life instead of Harry's, she completes the charm which transfers his debt from Lily to her baby.

Now, owing the life debt to Harry, Voldemort releases his unbounded hatred and ambition with an extremely powerful "avada kedavra" curse. The rapture and rage of the moment which links Voldemort to everlasting life is uncontained making this curse perhaps the most powerful of its kind ever to be spoken. It is certainly sufficient to snuff out an infant. What a surprise it is to the Dark Lord when the rune appears on Harry's forehead, marking the spot where the curse should have entered his tiny body. He recognizes it immediately. It is the seal of his unpaid debt. He hasn't time to react to the curse which is now rebounding in his direction. The protections with which he has armed himself could only have been defeated by a curse of that magnitude. In a pitiful whimper of self loathing, he has ended his own reign.

Lily's choice is truly poignant. Before Voldemort arrives at her home, she is faced with a choice - her own life or her child's; her life or the continued reign of the Dark Lord. Not in dire circumstances, but in the quiet solitude of her heart, Lily makes the decision to give her life not only for her son, but for the world.

If Voldemort had spared Lily, his debt would have been paid. Since he has spared no one, he still owes Harry a life debt. Has he forgotten this? How will he get around the debt to be able to kill Harry this time around?

[Rizika]

Hello everyone! I'm back!!!

OK, before I begin, I fist want to say that I'm short on time here, so I could only read some of what was here, so PLEASE forgive me if I am repeated something already said.

Here it goes:

Everyone seems to think (from what I read) that he didnt intend to kill her for a reason such as love, or she was one of his death eaters, or whatever, my idea is this: maybe he didnt want to kill her bacause he beleived it would "kill" her to see her only child not to mention husband dead. I'm only 16, and I certainly dont have children, but maybe those of you out there that do can relate to seeing your child die, and the pain it would cause. I odnt know, maybe afterwards he would kill her or something, but I can only imagine the pain a mother would go through seeing her child die.

Thats my ramblings for now, again sorry if I repeated you!!

Rizika :cool:

[eVaNeScEnCe]

This is definitely one of the bigger mysteries in the series (which is why it probably won't be readdressed until the last book.) But I always maintained that there was something about Lily, something that Voldemort needed from her that made him hesitate to kill her. (only for a bit) I mean let's face it, since when has Voldemort ever hesitated to kill anybody? I also believe this somehow ties in with the big revelation we have yet to learn about Lily. In fact, I think the whole eye color/Big revelation/Voldemort reluctant to kill Lily thing is all connected. grrr...How much longer again??? :banghead:

[phoenixsong]

Popkin-that is a really wonderful theory, I like it a LOT. Voldemort having a life-debt to Lily is a very interesting twist, as is the idea that Lily may have transferred her "credit" to Harry, thereby saving him. That's definitely one to keep in my vault of "highly possible theories".

Before reading your wonderful scenario, this was my theory for why Lily needn't have died: because Voldemort had promised Wormtail that he wouldn't kill her. After seeing Moody's photo, with Peter seated between a beaming Lily and James, I've thought more about the circumstances surrounding the Secret-Keeper switch. I think that it is possible that Peter may have had real affection for Lily, even as he resented James, and may have asked Voldemort not to kill her, and Voldemort may have kept his promise, had Lily not forced his hand.

[Popkin]

phoenixsong, your's is a good theory, too. I can't see LV keeping such a promise to Wormtail if Lily were uncooperative in the least. Of course, if your theory proves correct, he didn't.

You know what's funny, I had myself so convinced that my theory was right that I was reluctant to post it. I thought it might spoil the end for someone. As I think about that now, it makes me laugh. I see holes in it. Your theory, and the theories of a dozen others, is just as likely to be true.

Anyway, I said that perhaps the life debt is still in place, so LV still can't kill Harry. If that's true, LV can't know about it, because if he did he wouldn't have tried to AK Harry in the graveyard scene in GOF. But he said he should have remembered the ancient magic that saved Harry's life (where is that?), and which now protects Harry (Dumbledore says that somewhere), and LV says, "So your mother died to save you. Yes. That's a powerful countercharm" in CoS, page 317. So, what am I trying to say? My theory doesn't add up as neatly as it seemed to at first.

[Daveydee]

Popkin,

That really is a very good theory you have there. And of course it's given a lot of weight from the information we are given in PoA about the bond that is created when one wizard saves another and how (as per Dumbledore) it is 'magic at its deepest and most impenetrable' (sounds a bit like ancient magic?). Also the lightning bolt shape is the shape of the rune for defence and protection ,whch is Eihwaz, which just happened to get a mention in OotP.

Not too sure about Lily having consciously transferred this to Harry, though. Or whether that transfer took place as Voldemort cast the AK at Harry & Lily intercepted it, causing her death. Remember there is no 3rd AK in the Priori Incantatem. Perhaps Lily intercepted it in the full knowledge that doing so would cause that bond to be transferred to Harry, whilst also causing her own death of course.

[Popkin]

Remember there is no 3rd AK in the Priori Incantatem. Perhaps Lily intercepted it in the full knowledge that doing so would cause that bond to be transferred to Harry, whilst also causing her own death of course.

That's a good point, Daveydee. If there had been separate AKs for Harry and Lily, Harry's would have come out of the wand just before Lily did. I never noticed that. Your explanation makes sense, too.

[Hedwig_Ce]

I think Voldemort didn´t want to kill Lily because they´re related somehow. Just a thought! What do you, guys, think?

She died because she wanted to protect Harry. People say that the mother - son love is very strong...

[EvilRaven]

Popkin:
If Voldemort had spared Lily, his debt would have been paid. Since he has spared no one, he still owes Harry a life debt. Has he forgotten this? How will he get around the debt to be able to kill Harry this time around?

Oh I like your theory ... but still this has loopholes springing. but it is still very good and enlightening.

First of all, it contridicts the prophecy somewhat. If Harry is able to kill Voldemort, but Voldemort unable to kill Harry, wouldn't the prophecy not say the niether can live while the other survives, but say Harry can't live while Voldemort survives.

Then again ... since Voldemort now has Harry's blood in him ... wouldn't the debt also flow in his veins? Which means that neither Harry or Voldemort can kill eachother ... or can do so if the blood had erased the debt.

And thirdly ... Voldemort would never spare Harry's life. And he is not as dumb as we think ... he is a very intelligent man, however blinded he is. He would've realised that the debt had to be paid while he was sulking in Albania ... So why continue acting like a twit when he was trying to kill him?


I have this nagging feeling that Lily worked in DOM, and her particular speciality was the locked room, in which maybe her eyes become more special.

What if the only way to harness the power in the room is through the eyes?

And so the same fact is bestowed onto Harry in the end.

But also what if this is the reason why Voldemort never really intended to kill Lily in the first place. Could it be that voldemort had heard from Rookwood about this door, and was willing to watch Lily and her work- to fully understand this power which at the time he had no idea what it was-but since the power was nothing unlike anything ever seen in daily life wanted to research on it, and in the end use Lily.

But since he was desperate to kill Harry, he outwieghed his choices and killed Lily.

[Morgan LeFay]

You people all comes with theorie like: he loved her, they were related, she was a DE etc. But... I don't know... It didn't seem odd to me at all. He wanted to kill Harry, not his parents. I think he had something like respect for them - they escaped him three times so he knew they were people who should be taken seriously. I don't think he wanted to kill only James, not Lily. They both didn't need to die, but James was trying to protect his wife and son and died in a duell. Lily saw his husband dying and she was thinking hard - the only thing in the world she had to live for, was Harry. But if she survived, Harry would die, so what should she survive for? She would better die, and she knew, that her death will protect Harry, so she died. That's all.

[Daveydee]

<snipped>But if she survived, Harry would die, so what should she survive for? She would better die, and she knew, that her death will protect Harry, so she died. That's all.
Yes, but merely dying is not necessarily enough to protect Harry. Something which happened in the brief process of her death afforded Harry the protection. Presumably the 'ancient magic' to which both Dumbledore and Voldemort refer.

[faded264]

I also believe this somehow ties in with the big revelation we have yet to learn about Lily. In fact, I think the whole eye color/Big revelation/Voldemort reluctant to kill Lily thing is all connected.
Ok, I have a theory and it matches the guidelines eVaNeScEnCe posted. So, here's my theory:
Voldemort said that Lily needn't have died on Halloween night but he did not give James a chance to step aside like he did Lily as far as we know from the Dementor experience. Most people took this to mean that Voldemort saw something in James that could cause him(Voldemort) harm, therefore coming to the theory that James and Harry were the Heirs of Gryffindor. However, Voldemort should have seen both James and Lily as an equal threat to him considering that we learned in Order of the Phoenix that they each defied Voldemort three times. So, I've been wondering why he would give Lily a chance to live. I then thought of her eyes. They obviously have some special power since JK has been obsessing over them so much. So, what if Voldemort knew this? What if he thought he could possibly get Lily to come over to the Dark side and use her power? Wouldn't he at least try that? So, what if he wanted to keep Lily alive for his own personal benefit? When he had no use for James wouldn't he just kill him? Of course, Harry might have also had Lily's eyes all along but Voldemort could not use him for the power since he was supposed to fulfill the prophecy and eventually defeat Voldemort. I'm not sure about this. I just read Popkin's theory and I liked that alot too. Oh well. Feel free to post your thoughts.:)

[pulchra]

EvilRaven:
First of all, it contridicts the prophecy somewhat. If Harry is able to kill Voldemort, but Voldemort unable to kill Harry, wouldn't the prophecy not say the niether can live while the other survives, but say Harry can't live while Voldemort survives.


Not really. Cause if you think about it the prophecy also says that Voldermort will "mark" him as his equal. And Dumbledore seems to believe that the scar is the mark and he wouldn't have gotten the scar unless Voldermort's spell had backfired. That event is part of the prophecy.

But the life debt theory is and interesting one. I'm not sure if it's true... but Snape seemed to think that his debt to James was passed on to Harry...

But personally, I'm not sure why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily. I mean he wanted to kill Harry cause of the Prophecy and James probably cause he was the heir of Gryffindor and with both Harry and James gone Gryffindor would also be. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything... Gryffindor was definitly pretty close if not equal to Slytherin's power...

But I would just like to point out that when we are thinking about this take into consideration that the entire theme of the book is "you are not what you are born, but what you choose to be" Voldermort chose to do all those things... it might not have had anything to do with his "destiny." The prophecy might not have anything to do with anything... Not sure what that has to do with anything either... but I had an uncontrolable urge to mention it. :D

[paperflowergirl]

This is an enigmatic question. Some of your ideas have merit. I do not see why Lily would have saved Voldemorts life, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have happened.
I have tried for the longest time to work out a family relationship that would account for Voldemort being reluctant to kill her, but it has not worked very well, as any kind of relationship would go against information we get in the books.
Dumbledore has said that Tom Riddle is the only remaining decendant of Slytherin. Assuming that he got Slytherins line through his mother (very probable), this would mean that his mother, who is dead, did not have any other kids, nor did her siblings, cousins, etc, and that they are all dead too.

However, Lily was (according to the books) born into a muggle family, and could therefore potentially be related to the Riddles in some way or other. They could share a great grand-parent (as Tom's father had only one kid, and as his father was also an only child. His grandfather or grandmother might have had siblings that were the ancestors of lily and petunia, even James.)
The problem with this theory is that that would, if anything, be an incentive for Voldemort to kill Lily....... Voldemort did not exaclty love his muggle family... and so the possibility of a blood-connection appears to be very improbable.

One theory I consider possible is that Lily and Voldemort knew eachother in some way or other, or that for some reason Voldemort would have an affection for her. He calls her "silly girl," something you say to a disobedient child, rather than "Filthy mudblood," which is what any death-eater would have called her. He doesnt even say "Stupid woman" which also would have been more appropriate.
What gave me the idea that they somehow knew eachother is a passage from CoS, about the diary: Pg. 233 (american)
"And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten."
This might just be the magic effects of the diary, but then again it might not.
Here are just some other clues JKR has dropped about their relationship (whatever it might be).
Consider Lily's eyes. They are green, and this is very important. What else is green? Snakes and Slytherin house. (vice versa: Voldemort's eyes are scarlet - the colour of Gryffindor)
Lastly there is Lily's last name: Evans. I see her first name as being related to Mother Mary (whose symbol is the Lily, whose son must defeat evil, etc), and I though that why shouldn't her last name have some Biblical meaning too. Evans is a last name, but making it a first name (feminine) we get Eva, who is of course another Biblical character. Eva / Eve in the garden of eden is forever connected to the image of the snake (Voldemort). What this might mean, I do not know, but her first and last names create a curious oxymoron, just like Sirius Black is an oxymoron.

Another possibility is that there is no Lily-Voldemort connection, and that Voldemort promised someone not to kill Lily. That someone would probably be a powerful death eater. Two death eaters that knew her are Peter Pettigrew and Severus Snape. Pettigrew has already demonstrated that he doesnt care about anyone, but Snape... he is an enigma. However, we would then have to explain the fact that he went back to the good side before Voldemort fell (hence Dumbledore trusts him), and find out exactly what his bargaining chip was...
Any ideas?

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

In OotP when we learned why Voldemort wanted to kill HP I'm sure he wanted to kill him right away anddidn't want to kill Lily because his mind was set on HP but I'm sure he would have killed her afterwards. He was busy with HP and Lily got in his way to protect her son and LV made a flaw by killing her.

[Auri DeMeer]

popkin, definitely your theory about "why Lily needn't have died" is the best I've heard on that matter. Congratulations! :agree: :tu:

[Arissya_00]

This is an enigmatic question. Some of your ideas have merit. I do not see why Lily would have saved Voldemorts life, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have happened.
I have tried for the longest time to work out a family relationship that would account for Voldemort being reluctant to kill her, but it has not worked very well, as any kind of relationship would go against information we get in the books.
Dumbledore has said that Tom Riddle is the only remaining decendant of Slytherin. Assuming that he got Slytherins line through his mother (very probable), this would mean that his mother, who is dead, did not have any other kids, nor did her siblings, cousins, etc, and that they are all dead too.

However, Lily was (according to the books) born into a muggle family, and could therefore potentially be related to the Riddles in some way or other. They could share a great grand-parent (as Tom's father had only one kid, and as his father was also an only child. His grandfather or grandmother might have had siblings that were the ancestors of lily and petunia, even James.)
The problem with this theory is that that would, if anything, be an incentive for Voldemort to kill Lily....... Voldemort did not exaclty love his muggle family... and so the possibility of a blood-connection appears to be very improbable.

One theory I consider possible is that Lily and Voldemort knew eachother in some way or other, or that for some reason Voldemort would have an affection for her. He calls her "silly girl," something you say to a disobedient child, rather than "Filthy mudblood," which is what any death-eater would have called her. He doesnt even say "Stupid woman" which also would have been more appropriate.
What gave me the idea that they somehow knew eachother is a passage from CoS, about the diary: Pg. 233 (american)
"And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten."
This might just be the magic effects of the diary, but then again it might not.
Here are just some other clues JKR has dropped about their relationship (whatever it might be).
Consider Lily's eyes. They are green, and this is very important. What else is green? Snakes and Slytherin house. (vice versa: Voldemort's eyes are scarlet - the colour of Gryffindor)
Lastly there is Lily's last name: Evans. I see her first name as being related to Mother Mary (whose symbol is the Lily, whose son must defeat evil, etc), and I though that why shouldn't her last name have some Biblical meaning too. Evans is a last name, but making it a first name (feminine) we get Eva, who is of course another Biblical character. Eva / Eve in the garden of eden is forever connected to the image of the snake (Voldemort). What this might mean, I do not know, but her first and last names create a curious oxymoron, just like Sirius Black is an oxymoron.

Another possibility is that there is no Lily-Voldemort connection, and that Voldemort promised someone not to kill Lily. That someone would probably be a powerful death eater. Two death eaters that knew her are Peter Pettigrew and Severus Snape. Pettigrew has already demonstrated that he doesnt care about anyone, but Snape... he is an enigma. However, we would then have to explain the fact that he went back to the good side before Voldemort fell (hence Dumbledore trusts him), and find out exactly what his bargaining chip was...
Any ideas?

Wow, I love your theory. The question of why Voldemort did not want to kill Lily arouses many suspicions. I doubt he was in love with her or was related to her. The best theory I have heard so far is someone wanted to spare her, someone who helped Voldemort a great deal, and pleaded to spare her. We have Snape and Pettigrew. Maybe Lucius Malfoy was also in love with Lily Evans! :lol: Just kidding.

What I think, as Morgan Le Fay mentioned above, is that Voldemort had alot of respect for them. He is not the type to admit it, but I am sure he secretly respects them. It isn't everyone that can thrice defy the darkest lord of all times. It shows they are strong in where he is weak, and therefore, he must think they are of use to him. So, he probably went to the Potter's place, thinking that he could kill two birds with one stone. He could kill Harry before Harry kills him, and he could control Lily and James so he gains more power and influence. I think that JK Rowling plotted a red herring to deceive us. By giving Harry the sound of his mother's last words when he was near the dementor, it is likely that Voldemort that wanted to spare Lily. It is also stated that James put up a good fight. So it is natural to assume Voldemort would spare Lily and not James. But I think, that Voldemort, seeing James as also an advantage, wanted to spare him too, however, since he dueled so well, he could only kill James. At the time, he probably was thinking that even though James was dead there was still Lily, who, was probably weaker than James, but was still of use. But, as Lily pleaded and pleaded and pleaded, he thought that killing the only one who could defeat him was more important than having Lily, besides, he could probably use the Longbottoms too, who had also defied him three times, and therefore, killed Lily.

However, the one thing I do not understand is his use of the words "silly girl". It seems natural that he might call her a girl. She was very young at that time, and he was 40 years older. Why he should call her "silly", it remains an unsolved mystery :rolleyes: :eyebrows:

[Popkin]

Thank you to everyone who said I had an interesting theory. As you know, it feels great to come up with something people find interesting.

Remember there is no 3rd AK in the Priori Incantatem. Perhaps Lily intercepted it in the full knowledge that doing so would cause that bond to be transferred to Harry, whilst also causing her own death of course.
Actually, I went back and read the passage from GOF about the priori incantatem, and it's unclear what came out of the wand right before Lily and James:

"But already, yet another head was emerging...and this head, gray as a smoky statue, was a woman's...Harry, both arms shaking now as he fought to keep his wand still, saw her drop to the ground and straighten up like the others, staring...

The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with wide eyes.

'Don't let go, now!' she cried, and her voice echoed like Cedric's as though from very far away. 'Don't let him get you, Harry - don't let go!'

She and the other two shadowy figures began to pace around the innerwalls of the golden web, while the Death Eaters flitted around the outside of it...and Voldemort's dead victims whispered as they circled the duelers, whispered words of encouragement to Harry, and hissed words Harry couldn't hear to Voldemort.

And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort's wand...and Harry knew when he saw it who it would be...he knew, as though he had expectied it from the moment when Cedric had appeared from the wand...knew, because the woman was the one he'd thought of more than any other tonight..." GOF pgs. 666 & 667.

While it doesn't say that anything came out of the wand between Bertha and Lily, it also doesn't say that nothing more came out. It is possible that the AK that gave Harry his scar was simply not mentioned.

IF all the last spells to come out of LV's wand are all mentioned, THEN the AK that killed Lily would also have had to go through her and give Harry his scar.

That doesn't seem right to me. There is no other indication that a spell can go straight through a person and get a second person as well.

Is there a passage that makes it clear that Voldemort cursed Harry directly, and not through his mother's body?

[Popkin]

What gave me the idea that they somehow knew eachother is a passage from CoS, about the diary: Pg. 233 (american)
"And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten."
What an interesting observation. Since it says he was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, Tom's name was apparently not mentioned in Harry's presence by his mom or dad. Also, I don't think they would have let LV have an opportunity to come near Harry. The only way I can figure Harry could have actually met Tom as a friend would be in his dreams. It seems that if Tom had ever once been able to contact Harry as a friend, he would have taken that opportunity to kill Harry.

UNLESS, Voldemort had made a habit of talking with Harry prior to the prophesy in an attempt to get something else from the Potters. Hmmmmmm. It still seems highly unlikely.

[Daveydee]

While it doesn't say that anything came out of the wand between Bertha and Lily, it also doesn't say that nothing more came out. It is possible that the AK that gave Harry his scar was simply not mentioned.

IF all the last spells to come out of LV's wand are all mentioned, THEN the AK that killed Lily would also have had to go through her and give Harry his scar.

That doesn't seem right to me. There is no other indication that a spell can go straight through a person and get a second person as well.

Is there a passage that makes it clear that Voldemort cursed Harry directly, and not through his mother's body?
There is no passage which makes clear exactly what happened at Godrics Hollow. We do however have Harry's Dementor induced visions in which he hears his mothers last words and those of his father. From this Harry assumes that Voldemort killed James and Lily and then turned his wand on him (3rd AK). But since Harry's vision ends with Lily's screams, I see no logical reason why Harry should assume that Voldemort cast a 3rd AK at him following those at Lily and James. However, assume it Harry does. And we are reminded of this scene in GoF (Ch14: The Unforgivable Curses). But I think that the reason that we are reminded of it, is that we are being encouraged to question it later in that book in Priori Incantatem.

No 3rd AK emerges. The fact that it doesn't should be evidence enough. It does not seem reasonable to speculate that it did come out but that it was not written about. We must accept the scene as it is written.

The only other account we have of events at Godrics Hollow is Voldemorts own. He talks of the curse being 'deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and rebounded upon me'. Which to me suggests that he never got a chance to cast any more than 2 AKs.

I think that Priori Incantatem is the main clue, though. It seems quite clear.

[phoenixsong]

No 3rd AK emerges. The fact that it doesn't should be evidence enough. It does not seem reasonable to speculate that it did come out but that it was not written about. We must accept the scene as it is written.Okay, this must be said: NO AK "curses" at all emerge from Voldemort's wand! The "form" that his AK curse take under the priori incantatum effect is the grey shade of the person killed. No "flash of green light" comes out of his wand for any of the AK curses it has performed, only these shades. Ergo: as Harry did not die as a result of the curse-that-failed, there would be no shade to come out of Voldemort's wand. Perhaps it can be put this way: the only curses that take shape under the priori incantatum effect seem to be curses that succeeded, that hit their mark.

[Daveydee]

Okay, this must be said: NO AK "curses" at all emerge from Voldemort's wand! The "form" that his AK curse take under the priori incantatum effect is the grey shade of the person killed. No "flash of green light" comes out of his wand for any of the AK curses it has performed, only these shades. Ergo: as Harry did not die as a result of the curse-that-failed, there would be no shade to come out of Voldemort's wand. Perhaps it can be put this way: the only curses that take shape under the priori incantatum effect seem to be curses that succeeded, that hit their mark.
OK - if we're going to split hairs. But for the purposes of debate I'll follow Dumbledore's lead and use the term 'spells', even though as we agree, it is the result of the spell that is actually produced rather than the spell itself.

First, there is no suggestion that Priori Incantatem only produces succesful spells. Dumbledore is quite clear: 'One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells that it has performed....'. No suggestion or any other evidence to indicate that failed curses will not emerge. If a spell was cast, it should be regurgitated. Therefore we should have seen a ghostly grey shade of Voldemort himself.

I really don't see why it is such a problem to accept that Voldemorts AK at Lily was both deflected upon Harry and rebounded upon Lily. Particulary as Voldemort himself uses those very words.

[Picko]

First, there is no suggestion that Priori Incantatem only produces succesful spells. Dumbledore is quite clear: 'One of the wands will force the other to regurgitate spells that it has performed....'. No suggestion or any other evidence to indicate that failed curses will not emerge. If a spell was cast, it should be regurgitated. Therefore we should have seen a ghostly grey shade of Voldemort himself.

But performed implies carried out or execution. Execution in my mind equals successfully carrying out of something - in this case magic. Therefore if what has happened is consistent we can take it to mean only successful spells but at the same time it's a very grey area with no definate answer.

[Alcina]

But performed implies carried out or execution. Execution in my mind equals successfully carrying out of something - in this case magic. Therefore if what has happened is consistent we can take it to mean only successful spells but at the same time it's a very grey area with no definate answer.


But it was successfully carried out, just not on the intended target. It successfully carried itself out against the Dark Lord (except that he survived because of his experiements towards immortality). I can only assume that perhaps a 'ghostly image' of the Dark Lord didn't appear because he wouldn't have wanted to appear to encourage Harry, whilst the others would.

To go way back the the 'Why didn't he want to kill Lily' part, my take is that he had every intention of killing her, but thought it would be more... entertaining.. to make her watch her son being killed first, and to give her false hope that she would be allowed to survive.

[MadMagic]

I don't think that Voldemort necessarily did not want to kill Lily, I think rather he was very focused on killing the wizard he believed would be his downfall. In the face of that, killing Lily probably wasn't high on his priority list. I think he was just too focused on Harry to really want to bother with more people than necessary at that moment.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Well, the "you don't have to die" quote kind of refutes that, although that idea makes sense. And JKR's hints about something big being revealed make me suspect that there is something deeper. (And Lily better not have been related to Voldemort. grrrr) It makes sense for killing Lily just to be not high on his priority list, but Voldemort is not the kind of guy who would willingly save someone's life, tell them to stand aside, instead of just killing them right away. That's what I would have done, anyway, if I was Voldemort - just kill Lily and be done with it.

[whizbang121]

If Voldemort had spared Lily, his debt would have been paid. Since he has spared no one, he still owes Harry a life debt. Has he forgotten this? How will he get around the debt to be able to kill Harry this time around?
He owes Harry a life debt anyway. Wormtail's flesh provided that problem. And Harry's blood in the same body has got to be giving him the bends or something.

[whizbang121]

I have tried for the longest time to work out a family relationship that would account for Voldemort being reluctant to kill her, but it has not worked very well, as any kind of relationship would go against information we get in the books.
The question of Mark Evans comes up. The only way I can see that Mark, Lily and Petunia have the same last name, yet Petunia is Harry's only living relative with his mother's blood, is if Lily and Petunia's mother was married twice. Their mother, a muggle had Lily with her first husband. Was he a wizard or a squib? Was he Tom Riddle?
For what ever reason, the marriage dissolved and mom married Mr. Evans, a muggle. To protect Lily, Mr Evans gives her his name. I believe that Petunia is also Mr Evans daughter and that there may have been other children, or cousins leading to Mark. So Petunia is related to Mark Evans, but Lily is only related by adoption, not by blood. Thus Petunia is still Harry's only blood relatives and Lily certainly was raised by muggles. Could she have been Voldemort's daughter?
Dumbledore has said that Tom Riddle is the only remaining decendant of Slytherin. Assuming that he got Slytherins line through his mother (very probable), this would mean that his mother, who is dead, did not have any other kids, nor did her siblings, cousins, etc, and that they are all dead too. Want to discuss the 'deliberate error' that Tom Riddle was the last remain ancestor of Slytherin? No? Okay. Perhaps Tom Riddle has disappeared into Voldemort. Voldemort's new body has nothing of his mother in it. Is he still the decendant of Slytherin?

He calls her "silly girl," something you say to a disobedient child, rather than "Filthy mudblood," which is what any death-eater would have called her. Rather like a father to a daughter? If Lily was his daughter and heir of Slytherin, she is now dead and he remains the last. But then Harry is also a decendant of Slytherin. Did Dumbledore decide he didn't need to know that yet?
What gave me the idea that they somehow knew eachother is a passage from CoS, about the diary: Pg. 233 (american)
"And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten."

Lastly there is Lily's last name: Evans. I see her first name as being related to Mother Mary (whose symbol is the Lily, whose son must defeat evil, etc), and I though that why shouldn't her last name have some Biblical meaning too. Evans is a last name, but making it a first name (feminine) we get Eva, who is of course another Biblical character. Eva / Eve in the garden of eden is forever connected to the image of the snake (Voldemort). What this might mean, I do not know, but her first and last names create a curious oxymoron, just like Sirius Black is an oxymoron.
Isn't it in Revelation that the image of the woman clothed with the sun appears with 12 stars around her head. She stands on the earth and she crushes the serpent under her foot. I haven't read it in ages. Very symbolic, like all of revelation. But 12 is a favorite number of JKR thoughout the series and the woman has been interpreted as Mary, the new Eve. I should go read that again. She bears a child and runs to the desert to hide with it. Hmmm Revelation of John.

Another possibility is that there is no Lily-Voldemort connection, and that Voldemort promised someone not to kill Lily. That someone would probably be a powerful death eater. Two death eaters that knew her are Peter Pettigrew and Severus Snape. Pettigrew has already demonstrated that he doesnt care about anyone, but Snape... he is an enigma. However, we would then have to explain the fact that he went back to the good side before Voldemort fell (hence Dumbledore trusts him), and find out exactly what his bargaining chip was...
Any ideas?

[wicca_gurl]

My Mus thinks Lily was raped, so he wanted her to stay alive so he could rape her more (i added that last bit). Otherwise, I dunno.

[Deatheater_Muggle]

Once again-I don't have time to read the whole lot of points over here. So, anyway, i will give my own point.
We know Lily started dating James in his seventh grade but was that completely true? Siruis and Lupin might have told HarrY just because they wanted to stick up for their friend and also because they didn't want Harry to run with the bad idea. Perhaps, it wasn't even that Lily really wanted to marry James. I mean, okay, she was in Gryffindor but so was Pettigrew...she coud have been some spy thing. That way, she agreed to marry James on Voldemort's orders.
Thoguh, I still have this flaw in my theory: The prophecy made by Trelawney..."born to those who have thrice defied him" But if Lily had been a traitor, how could the prophecy be wrong?

[paperflowergirl]

I do not think that Lily was a traitor, because 1) it does not fit with her personality - she definately showed that she is a kind person when she told James to stop bothering Snape. She also married James, who hates the dark arts, and her love for Harry is described as being so good that Voldemort could not even touch him. 2) She gave her life to protect Harry, and because of that, Voldemort 'died' (at least lost all his powers). Fact remains that Peter was the one who betrayed the Order, not Lily, although she was also in it. How do we know Peter was a Gryffindor? Do the books actually mention this? We know that James, Lily, Hagrid, Mr and Mrs Weasley, all were gryffindors, but there are many people whose houses we can just guess.

Somebody mentioned rape, and I think that can be refuted easily not based on the plot, but on the fact that those kind of things do not seem to be part of the HP universe. I think that JKR would not have put this kind of thing in because that would make the books inappropriate for children, and she describes herself as a childrens book author.

Some thoughts on blood: None of the decendants of slytherin are alive save Voldemort. Assuming no divorces and faithful marriages, that means that however Voldemort is related to Harry, it has to go all the way back to Voldemorts great grandfather / grat grandmothers generation on the side of his mother that did not carry the line of slytherin. It is quite far back, and as the Evans were muggles, one of these people must have been squibs or had squib children.
Mark Evans: Nothing is accidental, so I guess that there is a connection somewhere between Lily evans family and Mark Evans. There is a whole thread for this. This all depends on how narrowly Dumbledore used the phrase 'only living relatives.' Blood is important in the books (12 uses of dragons blood, mudblood, pureblood, bad blood, protection in the blood, etc, but what JKR is trying to say with this I am not sure)

I was rereading PS/SS last week, and I noticed that even in book one Voldemort says "... I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight ... [I] but your mother needn't have died [I] ... she was trying to protect you ... Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." (Pg 294 american version)
In later books we hear more of the details of the encounter between Voldemort and Lily through Harrys backflashes, but from this quote we can see that Voldemort actually did not plan on killing Lily. I find it strange, because she was both muggleborn and in the Order. Look at how merciless he is towards his own followers when they just mess up his orders a little, and why would he then not kill someone who was clearly defying him, and had done so 3 times before? It is a mystery......

It is a mystery that we are currently trying to unravel...
As I mentioned (in much greater length) in my previous post, I see some possible explanations.

a) There is a relationship of some kind, very probably not through blood, between Voldemort and Lily. Before he turned openly bad he could have been a friend (beats me why, though), a teacher or mentor of some sort (he is very knowledgeable and she was very capable, especially in terms of charms), or some other form of aquaintance that would somehow make Lily important to Voldemort, even if he otherwise does not care about anyone.

b) Someone did a trade-off with Voldemort, saying "I will do this for you / give you this information, if you will not hurt Lily." Possible candidates are prominent death eaters who also knew Lily (snape, wormtongue)

c) he had some kind of plan in which he was going to use Lily. Killing her son and then trying to win her over seems like a poor strategy, however. This is possibly more likely than a), as it is not based on the assumption that
Voldemort actually can care for other people.

d) this is not my idea, but I like it. Voldemort could have been in debt to Lily because at one point she saved his life. The only circumstance in which I can see this happen is if she did not know the identity of the person she was saving. However, that she is capable of saving those in need we see when she tells James to stop bothering Snape, even if she is not one of snape's friends.
What do you think?

[whizbang121]

I do not think that Lily was a traitor, because 1) it does not fit with her personality - she definately showed that she is a kind person when she told James to stop bothering Snape. She also married James, who hates the dark arts, and her love for Harry is described as being so good that Voldemort could not even touch him. 2) She gave her life to protect Harry, and because of that, Voldemort 'died' (at least lost all his powers). Fact remains that Peter was the one who betrayed the Order, not Lily, although she was also in it. How do we know Peter was a Gryffindor? Do the books actually mention this? We know that James, Lily, Hagrid, Mr and Mrs Weasley, all were gryffindors, but there are many people whose houses we can just guess. InOotP someone asks Sirius if he was ever prefect. He says no, he was too often in detention with James. Lupin was the good boy and he got the badge. This implies that they were all in the same house. We know James played quidditch for Gryffindor, so it's reasonable to assume that Sirius and Lupin were Gryffindors, as well. No proof of Peter's house, yet.

Some thoughts on blood: None of the decendants of slytherin are alive save Voldemort. Assuming no divorces and faithful marriages, that means that however Voldemort is related to Harry, it has to go all the way back to Voldemorts great grandfather / grat grandmothers generation on the side of his mother that did not carry the line of slytherin. It is quite far back, and as the Evans were muggles, one of these people must have been squibs or had squib children. If Lily's muggle mother had been married twice, first to a magical person (wizard or squib) who died, and then to the muggle Mr Evans, and her first husband was Lily's father ............... :eyebrows: This would also allow for Mark Evans to be Mr and Mrs Evans' grandchild and still not be related to Harry by blood. I think Mark Evans is a hint to Lily's past.

Mark Evans: Nothing is accidental, so I guess that there is a connection somewhere between Lily evans family and Mark Evans.

In later books we hear more of the details of the encounter between Voldemort and Lily through Harrys backflashes, but from this quote we can see that Voldemort actually did not plan on killing Lily. I find it strange, because she was both muggleborn and in the Order. But if she was his daughter .............................

[paperflowergirl]

If lily was voldemorts daughter...
Then Lily must be a decendant of Slytherin, and so must Harry, and Dumbledore must be lying when he said that Voldemort is the last remaining decendant of Slytherin.
Then everyone who has called her muggle born (Hagrid, Sirius, Tom Riddle, Snape, aunt Petunia) must be lying.
Does that make any sense? So many people lying?
The only argument for this is that Voldemort is of aproximately the same age-group as Harrys grandparents would be. (about 50 years ago Riddle was 15-16 = approx. 66 years in book 2)
And of course the mysterious reason he did not want to kill her. The reason cannot have been too strong either, for voldemort did kill her even if he prefered not to.
About Lilys mother having two husbands - it is definately possible, but remember that both Lily and Petunia should have the same parents, because of the blood connection that is obviously both strong and important. It is interesting, because then Petunia would be a squib, as many people are speculating.

[Popkin]

Some thoughts on blood: None of the decendants of slytherin are alive save Voldemort.
I'm not sure Slytherin has no more decendants. Dumbledore actually says that Voldemort is the last of Slytherin's ancestors (COS US p. 332, ch 18). Does a reliable source in the HP books ever say that Slytherin has no decendants left besides LV/Tom Riddle? If not, it is possible that Harry is a decendant of Slytherin.

a) There is a relationship of some kind, very probably not through blood, between Voldemort and Lily. Before he turned openly bad he could have been a friend (beats me why, though), a teacher or mentor of some sort (he is very knowledgeable and she was very capable, especially in terms of charms), or some other form of aquaintance that would somehow make Lily important to Voldemort, even if he otherwise does not care about anyone.
This is the least likely of the possibilities you list, because Tom Riddle killed off his family with no compunction.

b) Someone did a trade-off with Voldemort, saying "I will do this for you / give you this information, if you will not hurt Lily." Possible candidates are prominent death eaters who also knew Lily (snape, wormtongue)
With Wormtail seated between Lily and James in Moody's photograph, this seems a likely possibility.

c) he had some kind of plan in which he was going to use Lily. Killing her son and then trying to win her over seems like a poor strategy, however. This is possibly more likely than a), as it is not based on the assumption that
Voldemort actually can care for other people.
This also seems possible since it does not require LV to have any positive feelings for Lily - I don't think he is capable of feeling even the smallest amount of love for Lily.

d) this is not my idea, but I like it. Voldemort could have been in debt to Lily because at one point she saved his life. The only circumstance in which I can see this happen is if she did not know the identity of the person she was saving. However, that she is capable of saving those in need we see when she tells James to stop bothering Snape, even if she is not one of snape's friends.
What do you think?
Lily could have met Tom Riddle while he was still showing a respectable face to the world, before his public rise to power. If that had happened, Lily could have been completely unaware of LV's evil ambitions. But even if Lily did know what kind of person LV/Tom Riddle was, she could have shown him mercy - just as Harry showed Wormtail (who had murdered Harry's parents) mercy.

[mafiawizard]

i dont no if there has been a thread for this but couldnt the reason volderment killed lily because first she tried to stop him and then he though she is only some mudblood so he killed her and then over looked her protection over harry becuase she was jus a mere mudblood
Lily was killed because she was trying to protect Harry and Voldemort really wanted to kill Harry. Plus Hagrid said that anyone that tried to fight against Voldemort was killed and oth she and James fought hard against Voldemort. She got in the way of Voldemort's plans so he had no choice but to kill her.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I wish we could find out what color Tom Riddle's eyes were because I have a theory that Tom maybe related to Lily Evans. It's a bit far-fetched and i may start a new topic on it when i get more information but here i things i have already come up with:

1)It is said that LV didn't want to kill Lily
2)Tom Riddle was a master at charms, well Lily's wand was specific for producing charms
3)Lily's blood has kept HP living and LV is living to but I don't think it was because of his power but because he has the same blood as Lily. Somehow she died but HP has her blood and lived. How can HP be chosen so randomly to defeat LV?!; HP must be from the same bloodline as LV, blood we see is very important and because Lily has such a significant blood, well then it was passed to HP and that's why HP lived and also LV, there blood i extremely magical.

I know crazy and you may not even understand it but if you do you may see the similarities. I'll try to get more information.

[rons-lover]

_[Unicorn]']I wish we could find out what color Tom Riddle's eyes were because I have a theory that Tom maybe related to Lily Evans. It's a bit far-fetched and i may start a new topic on it when i get more information but here i things i have already come up with:

1)It is said that LV didn't want to kill Lily
2)Tom Riddle was a master at charms, well Lily's wand was specific for producing charms
3)Lily's blood has kept HP living and LV is living to but I don't think it was because of his power but because he has the same blood as Lily. Somehow she died but HP has her blood and lived. How can HP be chosen so randomly to defeat LV?!; HP must be from the same bloodline as LV, blood we see is very important and because Lily has such a significant blood, well then it was passed to HP and that's why HP lived and also LV, there blood i extremely magical.

I know crazy and you may not even understand it but if you do you may see the similarities. I'll try to get more information.
I don't think Harry was chosen randomly at all. Voldemort made the choice to kill him because he assumed it was Harry that would destroy him, thus making him the One. It may have been Neville either because his parents defied Voldy three times as well. However Voldemort chose Harry. He didn't hear the full prophecy, ect, ect.

But I don't remember it saying that he wanted Lily dead. But rather, that "She Needn't have died".

So I I do wonder why Voldemort lived, but I figure he must've had it all figured out that someone would want to kill him(WELL DUH!), so he figured out some spell or potion to use on himself so when "supposedly" killed, he was still be barely alive so that he could have an eventual comeback to finish the work he had come to do or whatever.

And another question I would sooner be asking is not "Why did Lily die?", but rather "Why did James die?". Because obviously he said Lily didn't need to die, but he never said James didn't need to die. And I'm sure James would protect his son as well, so why did'nt he say that his father needn't have died either?

I'm sure all our questions will be answered in the end(Well maybe some wont, but the importants ones will be. :p). So, yup!

:D

[Zachary1993]

i dont no if there has been a thread for this but couldnt the reason volderment killed lily because first she tried to stop him and then he though she is only some mudblood so he killed her and then over looked her protection over harry becuase she was jus a mere mudblood
Lily was protecting Harry. One of them had to be killed. Plus Lily fought hard against you know who and anyone that fought hard againsyou know who ended up dead and both Lily and James fought hard and they were getting in the way of you know who's plan to kill all muggleborns.

[London_luv89]

Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily though, he killed James, but he was giving Lily a chance, b/c from what Harry Heard from the Dementors he was telling her to stand aside, then in the 2nd book he told him that she didn't had to die, wait was it in the 2nd book? can't remember anyways... he only was seeking to kill Harry and James apparentely, maybe he liked Lily lol.... nah...

[rotsiepots]

And another question I would sooner be asking is not "Why did Lily die?", but rather "Why did James die?". Because obviously he said Lily didn't need to die, but he never said James didn't need to die. And I'm sure James would protect his son as well, so why did'nt he say that his father needn't have died either?

There's a great theory floating around these forums about Lily being "wandless" the night Voldemort paid the Potters a visit (you can find that theory here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=19107)).

It may be that for whatever reason Voldemort regarded James as more of a threat to his plan, so he had to die. Perhaps Voldemort didn't want to killy Lily because she didn't have a wand and therefore couldn't defend herself? Voldemort did adhere to the ideals of duelling in the graveyard in Little Hangleton -- it would have been so easy for him just to kill Harry while he was tied to the headstone, but he insisted that Wormtail give him back his wand, so they could duel.

He might have some old-fashioned values about when and when not to kill people. ;)

[GryffindorSeeker]

He might have some old-fashioned values about when and when not to kill people. ;)
*gasp* Voldemort? Has values? *faints*
Okay, seriously now. I agree with what Rotsiepots said. Pretty much every word of it. I mean, Voldemort is emotionless and cruel, but he's still part human. ;) He probably just got fed up with Lily not letting him kill Harry and Avada Kadavra he got it over with, killed her, and attempted to kill Harry.

[Fuchsia]

James would be a threat to him. Maybe Lily had been out of things after having Harry while James still kept in action?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

He's still part human. ;)
Hagrid: Dunno if he had enough human in him to die . . .

I get your and rotsie's point, though. Remember in the graveyard when Voldemort wanted Harry to bow? Gotta follow the rules, right? Gotta follow the etiquette? Well, Voldemort may well have some strange, outmoded etiquette. Like the dueling "gentleman" rules, he may have similar scruples about not killing the unarmed, or women, or relatives, or unarmed women, or unarmed relatives, or unarmed women relatives . . .

Just throwing some stuff out there. Lily might have been unarmed (I say yes) Voldemort might have scruples about not killing women (I say, in the very-equal wizarding world, no), she might have been his relative (I say heck no), she might have been some strange combination of the three, or some strange combination of some more variables you want to throw in. Either way, going back to that graveyard scene, Voldemort does have some principles.

[rotsiepots]

Voldemort has killed women in the past. He killed Dorcas Meadowes without much of a conscience (although I'm assuming she was armed, considering she was a part of the Order), as well as Bertha Jorkins. I suppose you could argue that Voldemort killing Bertha was an act of compassion, considering how "damaged" she was after Voldemort extracted all the information he needed from her.

[Cat]

I get your and rotsie's point, though. Remember in the graveyard when Voldemort wanted Harry to bow? Gotta follow the rules, right? Gotta follow the etiquette? Well, Voldemort may well have some strange, outmoded etiquette. Like the dueling "gentleman" rules, he may have similar scruples about not killing the unarmed, or women, or relatives, or unarmed women, or unarmed relatives, or unarmed women relatives . . .

Or women holding babies. His own mother died giving birth to him, remember. He might have a thing for mothers.

But the wandless idea is very interesting. The only thing is, though, that Lily seemed to be aware that Voldemort might have spared her. She asked him to kill her instead. Are Voldemort's twisted principles well known?

[Weatherby]

Or women holding babies. His own mother died giving birth to him, remember. He might have a thing for mothers.

But the wandless idea is very interesting. The only thing is, though, that Lily seemed to be aware that Voldemort might have spared her. She asked him to kill her instead. Are Voldemort's twisted principles well known?

Voldemort having a thing for mothers is an intriguing but creepy thought.

As for Lily asking Voldemort to kill her instead. If this is true she couldn't have known why he was after her son. If she had why would she think he'd spare Harry if he killed her instead?
I still think Voldemort was lying to Harry or withholding the details. It's more likely Lily refused to get out of the way. She just couldn't bring herself to step aside and leave him to kill her baby.

Voldemort may not have wanted to kill her but I don't think she had any hopes he'd spare Harry after she died.

[rotsiepots]

I think Lily was just trying to say anything to stop Voldemort from killing Harry. I'm sure the Potters were well aware that he was after Harry (I can't imagine why Dumbledore would omit such an important detail, especially considering he regarded Lily and James as friends).

Similarly, she could have just been trying to delay Voldemort and hoping desperately that help was on the way.

[Weatherby]

My apologies. Lily did indeed ask for Voldemort to kill her instead. I had forgotten until yesterday while rereading PoA.

Harry heard Lily cry to kill her instead during a dementor attack. I'm not sure how accurate his memories were since he was a baby when he saw it happen. Wizards so have extraordinary memories but that's for another thread.

As rotsiepots said - Lily could've been desperate while begging Voldemort for mercy. I can't think of why someone would neglect to tell her the reason Voldemort was after them was because of Harry.
I wonder if she knew that by dying she'd save Harry. Most likely not since Voldemort didn't.

[SomeDude]

I think its obvious that lily DID know that by dying she would save Harry and Voldermort wouldn't/couldn't have known what spells had been used to help save Harry.
Remember, Voldermort only know the start of the prophecy and Dumbledore knew it all!

[Discordia]

Well Voldemort killed her anyway. I think that part of the reason that he killed her was bc she just got in the way. She'd have put up a struggle and how else would he have gotten to Harry? Lily wasn't just about give her son over to Voldemort. I just find it wierd what she says when she dies She says No! Take me instead! Well Voldemort had come for Harry because of the prophecy so how would Lily have been of any use to Voldemort? I mean Voldemort came for Harry. What did Lily expect? That Voldemort would have kiled her and past Harry over? It just seems really odd now that I think about it.

[ae1vart0n]

Perhaps Petunia and Voldemort had a fling.

This would explain how Harry would know about him in childhood. She or Lily may have mentioned Tom Riddle once or twice, or he might have even come by to visit before Harry turned 1.

It would also explain why Voldemort hasn't gone after Petunia yet. I can't believe he can't find the place. Voldemort has too many connections, Lucius at least must know he's living with the Dursleys.

He wouldn't want to kill Lily because he knows it would hurt her sister.

It would explain why Petunia might hate wizards, and Tom would hate muggles if she and Tom had a break up. (I mean in addition to being Slytherin's heir)

It would make sense that Petunia, at that time, might want to date in the wizarding world to keep up with Lily.

[Edit] I am aware there's an age difference, but we all know Voldemort can be persuasive, and would you really put it past either of them? Or maybe it was a really close friendship and they had an argument.

[whizbang121]

Well Voldemort killed her anyway. I think that part of the reason that he killed her was bc she just got in the way. She'd have put up a struggle and how else would he have gotten to Harry? Lily wasn't just about give her son over to Voldemort. I just find it wierd what she says when she dies She says No! Take me instead! Well Voldemort had come for Harry because of the prophecy so how would Lily have been of any use to Voldemort? I mean Voldemort came for Harry. What did Lily expect? That Voldemort would have kiled her and past Harry over? It just seems really odd now that I think about it.

Could this be related to the green eyes?

[Auri DeMeer]

I wonder if she knew that by dying she'd save Harry. Most likely not since Voldemort didn't.I think she knew.

If Lily had a life-bond with Voldemort from having spared his life (the same as Harry spared Pettigrew's), and if her piece of ancient magic consisted of passing her life-bond on to Harry, most probably the passing of the bond wouldn't be effective if the person who passes the bond is still alive. We don't know how that works, but for me it makes sense for now.

When Lily asked Voldemort to "kill her instead" in the Book 3 memory, she most probably knew that Voldemort would kill her first and then kill Harry. Lily knew she had to be killed first so that her protection could be effective. That was her great sacrifice.

And that's the kind of thing that Voldemort wouldn't take into account, because he doesn't understand love and its powers.

I am aware there's an age difference, but we all know Voldemort can be persuasive, and would you really put it past either of them? Or maybe it was a really close friendship and they had an argument.Voldemort is very uncapable of feeling such things as love or friendship for another human being. Voldemort & love is like oil & water, they don't mix. (Tehee I posted that sentence a while ago in another thread... :) )

[ae1vart0n]

Voldemort is very uncapable of feeling such things as love or friendship for another human being. Voldemort & love is like oil & water, they don't mix. (Tehee I posted that sentence a while ago in another thread... :) )
Then he must have a non-sentimental reason not to want to kill Lily? Or perhaps he lost the ability to care later in life.

Separately, is it possible that Harry got some of Lily's powers in the transfer too? And if so that Voldemort got some of Lily's power as well?

[Auri DeMeer]

Then he must have a non-sentimental reason not to want to kill Lily? Exactly; for example, if he wanted to respect the life-bond he knew he had with Lily (and that I explained in the last post). Maybe he didn't want to kill her because she had saved his life.

[Jessica]

Auri deMeer,

I really like this idea! Maybe it was the act of killing her in spite of the life debt that was his downfall.

In other words, the life debt was the Ancinet Magic. Killing someone to whom he owed a life debt caused the curse to rebound onto Voldemort.

Genuis :)

[Discordia]

Could this be related to the green eyes?
How so? I have a feeling about this but I think that Lily's final request from Voldemort may have a deeper meaning.

[Weatherby]

That's true. She probably did know what she was doing.
She would've done anything to protect her child.

I think Voldemort was just anxious to kill Harry. He probably didn't expect Lily to put up a fight. He killed James first for that reason. He thinks of her as a muggle afterall.

[rotsiepots]

I think she knew.

If Lily had a life-bond with Voldemort from having spared his life (the same as Harry spared Pettigrew's), and if her piece of ancient magic consisted of passing her life-bond on to Harry, most probably the passing of the bond wouldn't be effective if the person who passes the bond is still alive. We don't know how that works, but for me it makes sense for now.

Lily couldn't have killed Voldemort or "spared his life". During his first reign of terror he was immortal; even if she had spared launching Avada Kedavra in his general direction it probably wouldn't have caused him any serious damage.

[Jessica]

Lily couldn't have killed Voldemort or "spared his life". During his first reign of terror he was immortal; even if she had spared launching Avada Kedavra in his general direction it probably wouldn't have caused him any serious damage.

rotsie, you ruin all the best theories! **** you and your cursed logic :)

All kidding aside, this is a very good point. I was going to say she could have saved his life before he became immortal, but given her youth, I realized that this is highly unlikely.

Ahhh well another excellent theory bites the dust :)

[Discordia]

Lily couldn't have killed Voldemort or "spared his life". During his first reign of terror he was immortal; even if she had spared launching Avada Kedavra in his general direction it probably wouldn't have caused him any serious damage. Agreed. Lily couldn't have possibly spared his life bc Voldemort doesn't seem like the type of man to ley by gones be by gones with enemies. If she had spared his life he'd have just turned around and killed her. It's not possible. If Lily was faced against Voldemort I don't think that she'd choose the time to let her morals get in the way and let him live bc he'd have just killed her anyway.

[ae1vart0n]

Who ever said he was immortal? Just because he wasn't destined to die doesn't mean he was immortal. And if you're talking about the spells, "I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality" The path. Not there yet.

[Auri DeMeer]

Lily couldn't have killed Voldemort or "spared his life". During his first reign of terror he was immortal; Not immortal; he had taken steps to immortality, but the ultimate goal wasn't totally reached. I mean, he certainly didn't die, but he lost his body... He never says he was immortal ("...I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality", Book 4)

Besides, we don't know when he took those steps. Like jessicacarstens said, Lily could have spared his life before he took those steps, or the last of them.

even if she had spared launching Avada Kedavra in his general direction it probably wouldn't have caused him any serious damage.But Voldemort didn't know if AK woud cause him damage or not. He wasn't sure his steps to immortality were that effective. I quote from Book 4:
"You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it."
He hadn't tested his immortality until the AK rebounded on Harry. So, he had no reason not to fear AKs from Lily, Aurors or whoever.

I was going to say she could have saved his life before he became immortal, but given her youth, I realized that this is highly unlikely.Well, Harry was only 13 and he already had a life-bond with Pettigrew, so...

If she had spared his life he'd have just turned around and killed her. It's not possible.Like I said, we don't really know yet how the life-bond works. But it seems to me it's a matter of honour in the first place. I mean, if a wizard saves another wizard's life, and a bond is created between them (as we know), it's logical to think that one of the bond's implications is, the saved wizard cannot take his saviour's life.

What's more, the bond is created magically. That means, there must be a consequence if the saved wizard attempts to kill his saviour. For example, the re-bounding of his attack. :D Like I said, we don't know how the life-bond works, but for me this makes sense.

[Discordia]

Well when it comes to Voldemort I don't think that he lets his morals get in the way. Do you hinestly think that Voldemort wouldhave spared Lily's life if it meant sparing the child that was destined to destroy him? I don't think that Voldemort's ever been one to let morals stand in his way, and the same with Deatheaters. I don't really see how Lily could have spared his life since she's the one that's been the target and not the other way around. I seriously doubt that of all the wizards that Lily could have spared that Voldemort would be the one she'd do it for.

[ultimate sacrifice]

I agree...I don't think we can take Voldemort's word for anything. Why would he kill James and Harry and leave Lily to only come after him again? It doesn't make sense. Voldemort is a liar and a manipulator, he would say anything to accomplish his goals. I think we are still missing too many pieces to the puzzle to take him at his word about whether or not Lily needed to die that night.

[whizbang121]

US! How are you? Coffee?

But if Lily could have been useful to Voldemort somehow. If, after he had killed James and Harry, he could have somehow benefited from her knowledge or ability as I suspect he with Snape ........

But why didn't he just stun her or use the imperious on her? Aaaaarrrrrgghhhhh!

[Alastor D]

It's a bit hard to see how she could be useful to Voldie even under the Imperius Curse after he had killed her baby. She might be able to fight the curse and tell that Wormtail was the secret keeper. And he certainly would spill his beans in court. I don't believe that Voldie was truthful when he said she needed not die. She might have been unimportant, which Harry and James were not, but she needed to die because she was there. But to think that V intended to spare her? No.

[Auri DeMeer]

Well when it comes to Voldemort I don't think that he lets his morals get in the way.
Don't get me wrong, I also don't think Voldemort would let his morals get in the way... because they certainly didn't: He ended up killing Lily! :)

I'm not saying that Voldemort wanted to spare Lily... For him, I think she was quite insignificant and a Mudblood no less! So, he would have had no problems to kill her.

However, maybe he was not allowed to kill her - it's different. You see, in a normal life-debt bond, I'm pretty sure the saved wizard is not allowed to take the life of his saviour. That's common sense. So, IF a life-debt existed between Voldemort and Lily, Voldemort would know that he wasn't allowed to kill her, due
to that magical bond: there was magic protecting her. And Voldemort knew this, indeed: he says so in Book 4:

"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice...This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it.
...
"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself.


But she was being such a nuisance for him (Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead-) that he couldn't resist and killed her.

So, the reason Lily died was because she passed her life bond to Harry, to protect him against Voldemort. The life bond, plus her life sacrifice formed the strong shield that caused the AK curse not only not to work, but even to rebound against the bond-breaker.

[Remus_Rules]

"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice...This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it.
...
"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself.


But she was being such a nuisance for him (Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead-) that he couldn't resist and killed her.

So, the reason Lily died was because she passed her life bond to Harry, to protect him against Voldemort. The life bond, plus her life sacrifice formed the strong shield that caused the AK curse not only not to work, but even to rebound against the bond-breaker.


I think maybe Voldy did not kill her immediately because something in the back of his mind told him not to. Dumbledore said that Voldemort possesses more magical knowledge than anyone alive, and V says "I was foolish to overlook it." So he pretty much knew something bad would happen to him if he killed Lily, he just didn't give it any thought at the time. He was pretty cocky at that point and didn't think anything could touch him.

So he goes in with the intention of killing Harry, hesitates to kill Lily who's in his way, and then she gets him so annoyed that he just ignores his instincts and takes her out.

[Priori]

this is kinda off-topic, but I think there is more to Jame's death than we think. All we know is that he tried to stop Voldemort. But, the only reason I think there is more to it is because in the movie, it didn't show Jame's death, only Lily's...

I agree with that. I hope we learn alot more about that night in book 6, since I think it holds some giant pieces to the puzzle. James' death still hasn't really been talked about in the books and I think there is a reason.

[Morgan LeFay]

Yes, I think that the night is a clue to all. And there're a lot more questions about that 24-hours must to be answered. Even JKR said that she had to rewrite the very first chapter, because 10 versions before had been showing too much...

[Discordia]

All we know about James death is that he fought bravely and put up a fight. He died trying to prevent Voldemort from getting to Lily and Harry. Almost as if he was trying to give them time to get away but they didn't make it.

[nanki888]

i have been thinking about this for a little while now and after reading through all the comments on this, i have become more and more adament that there is something to do with what happened when Voldemort met lily that night. (i also agree that james' death plays a large part in this also)

out of all of this, i dont think that lily is related to voldemort (esp being his daughter esp because jk rowling says herself that voldemort doesnt have any kids). it just seems very far-fetched for them to be related. (just my opinion :p )

the theory of the life-bond is a very good idea and a possibility, i just dont know when she could have saved him. but we dont know alot of what has happened in the past so who knows.

BUT, the question comes up that what if she had a life-bond with someone else, say a death-eater (maybe peter or snape) and they asked voldemort to spare her so that way they would be even (dont know if it works that way, but fun the speculate). we know that voldemort said himself that he rewards those who help him (dont have my book with me but it was right before he gives peter his new arm in GoF, he says that peter was dispicable BUT did help him so he would keep his word and reward him for that), so its not that unlikely that he would do that for a death eater if that was to be their reward but when he got their lily just became such a bother that he didnt care about that anymore because above everything was him and this is what he had to do to get to get what he wanted, harry.

one last theory that comes to mind is that this is jk rowling way of throwing us off completly. she might have done this to get us wrapped into other theories and ideas to keep us from seeing the real ones. she has said that no one has guessed any main plot points (although she said that some have skirted it a bit). so who knows if we are really even looking at the right things. but this is one of the reasons why i love these books, SO many things to speculate on and wonder what could possibly happen. :drool: cant wait for the next book for more info :D

[whizbang121]

It's also possible that Lily knew something or had a skill Voldemort wanted to exploit.

[nanki888]

very true...another possibility to add to the list :)

[Phalcon]

Hi all

This is my first post:D, ive been reading the forums for a while, but never actually got around to posting. Ive searched the forums but couldnt find anything smiliar , feel free to close this down if there's another thread.

Anyway i was reading POA the other day, and during the quiditch match when the dementors come on, harry recalled when volie attacked him (Sorry i havent got my book to hand for any quotes). Anyway voldie tells her to stand asside, and she stayed in the same place. However im thinking how easy is it for him simply to push her aside and kill him anyway, after all this is voldemort, he had probably killed hundreds of people up to this point, and yet he shows mercy towards Lily. Then if he tried to kill harry, the curse would backfire upon both of them, Voldie would be protected by his charms etc, and lily would die. I really have to proof of any of this, i'm just thinking JK how jk likes to lead us etc.

[leenielou]

So how does this mean that Harry killed Lily? :huh: I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

[Phalcon]

Well by my thinking, when Voldie cast AK on harry, the curse rebounded. So would the curse have rebounding upon everything around him, after all the house was nearly destroyed. So if the curse backfired onto Voldie and onto Lily. Voldie would survive from all of his spells, and Lily would simply die. Sorry if any one thinks this is far fetched, i do aswell:D

[Cat]

No, he killed Lily and then cast the spell on Harry.

But, anyway, even if the spell rebounded of Harry and killed Lily, it wouldn't mean that Harry killed Lily. Voldemort was the one who cast the spell.

[LilFlirtyBaby08]

I understand what you going at but maybe this also means that Lily can be alive and out hiding somewhere they never mention what happen to the bodys :rotfl:

[Weatherby]

I have merged the thread about Harry being responsible for his mother's death with the threads existing about why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily.

Now, this is why people suffer needless guilt for things that weren't their fault. Why do people hand down blame to undeserving people?
"If you hadn't taken my car I never would have been mugged by.." and so on.
The only person responsible in this is Voldemort, Peter and other Death Eaters.

Harry was just an innocent baby. It was his mother's duty to protect him. He did not ask her to do it but nevertheless when she had him she took on the responsibility to protect him.

[brisa]

I understand what you going at but maybe this also means that Lily can be alive and out hiding somewhere they never mention what happen to the bodys :rotfl:

Well...Lily is certainly not alive...do you remember when Harry fight Voldy on GoF..Lily appeared after James from Voldy's wand...but I want to know too where are the bodies..in the cemetary or they only vanished or what ???

[wavy]

I was just wondering about why he said Lily didn't have to die. I think its very likely that it's a lie that Voldie didn't have to do it or wouldn't have done it if she had stepped aside to make Harry feel guilty and provide him with some sort of extra emotional advantage over Harry. We already know he lied about Hagrid.

But I also like the point about someone perhaps asking Voldie to spare her in advance. Snape? Pettigrew? I guess it could have been the life debt thing, but not sure how this works with Snape. He obviously doesn't like being indebted to anyone, but my impression was that he warned James when he tells Harry in POA he's going to die like his father, "too arrogant to believe his trust in Sirius was misplaced" or something like that. It also seems like Snape would have made the deal for James, since he owed James. Unless all those Snape/Lily theorists are right, and he did it for wuvvvvvv.

Not sure why Pettigrew would have done it unless there was a life debt.