Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

[Morgoth]

Original Thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=11218)

Okay, we have a new thread now for several reasons. One, please do not post comments about sex. You will be warned if you do. Two, vBulletin gets funny with threads above the 2000 reply mark.

To emphasize a question in the last post of part one by Mad Eye Mike.

Will Dean and Ginny last?

[Mad Eye Mike]

To answer my own question, I have no idea if Dean and Ginny will last. At the end of OotP when she revealed why she dumped Michael Corner, she didn't seem broken up about it in any way. Considering she started seeing him at the end of GoF, that means she was dating Michael for close to a year. Ginny showed an amazing lack of emotion for losing her first long term boyfriend.

She did give me the impression that she's going to be a bit boy crazy.

[You-Know-Who]

I have to agree with Mad Eye Mike, she seem one of those girls that can pick up and dump girls with a snap of a finger. If this is true, I'll be suprised, she seems so innocent...

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by You-Know-Who
I have to agree with Mad Eye Mike, she seem one of those girls that can pick up and dump girls with a snap of a finger. If this is true, I'll be suprised, she seems so innocent...


Whoa, whoa, whoa! Ginny dumped girls!?! What version of OotP do you have? :lol:

Btw, Futurama rocks!

[evaluna]

Okay I'm away half a day and now a new thread ;)
So bear with me I already had prepared some reponses to the other stuff and haven't thought yet about Dean and Ginny
Yes it's CLEAN ;)

Sirius83:
No. Sorry if i'm being unclear. What i'm saying is that romantic love is the love that Harry is lacking. He has all the other kinds of love so why won't it open? He needs them all, and he's lacking the romantic love. However, the one he is actually in love with, completely and utterly devoted to and vice versa is probably going to be the one he has to open the door with. Not the one who is just a romantic love, the the one he shares all the various types of love with to the highest level; his soul mate. This is why i can't see it being anyone but Hermione, because there is no way he could fall in love with the girl and become really soul mates with her over the course of just 2 more books.

Hawk92:
What is fascinating is this linear approach to love. Love is more circular. In short it links with other love to create a chain. Man and woman fall in love. They have a child. The child falls in love. The child has a child. Love goes on. It is not broken. And each new link makes a great chain. Love encompasses all.
<also>
The Song of Solomon is very rich in romantic themes.
<snip>
I don't think that you can seperate romantic love from universal love. And remember that Christians call God Father (parental love).

Cheers!


You guys are simply amazing. I have nothing else to add to the topic that I didn’t already say in response to the others below in this post.


Ilyeki
QUOTE
What I do think is that a more humbled Hermione is going to be more appreciative of Ron's merits.

RE
Okay stop right there. At this point the feminist in me is literally pulling her hair out. So Hermione needs to be HUMBLED for precious, sweet Ron and what does he do exactly? Have his ego stroked? In what century are we? A relationship is about TWO people adjusting to suit each other, not one person being humbled; and of course it has to be the woman doesn't it? Because we can't possibly have a relationship where a man is weaker than the woman. Why not suggest Ron stop making negative comments about SPEW because whether or not he agrees, it's important to her. It is possible; Harry does it. Why not suggest Ron stop reacting to a mention of Krum as if Hermione is doing somthing criminal because the simple truth is she DOeS NOT belong to him and has the right to talk to and be friends with ANYONE she so chooses. Oh no; Hermione is the one to do all the changes for a relationship with Ron. Okay, I see all Gloria Steinam's work for women's empowerment was a waste.



Ilyeki: I didn’t quote more because I’d have to do the whole thing. I was actually moved in your defense of Hermione. We all know no one’s perfect but she gives 110%, and her heart and spirit are on the side of right, which count for plenty. Per Dumbledore, Hermione is that person – as is Harry – who will stand up for what’s right [principle] over what’s easy [popular sentiment, habit or convention, exploitation].
I think Hermione’s stand on slavery is extremely important to the septology and shows the depth of her character and her moral fibre, as well as highlighting the need to address prejudice and injustice. She is in a sense Harry’s hero just as he is hers. Remember, by the time Harry goes to the MoM for his hearing and views the fountain of magical brethren, he’s already seeing through her eyes, or rather, she’s opened his/raised his consciousness. And lest I repeat myself, she is every bit as strong and courageous as Harry, Dumbledore, or any of others, having the courage of convictions even when she stands alone on those convictions.

And the quote about Hermione needing to be humbled disturbs me, because I too see posts discussing how Hermione should be humbled for her perceived failings, but never is the shoe on the other foot, which just seems a tad harsh on the poor girl who, being seen as a 2nd class citizen in the wizarding world by many, is just trying to hold her head up proudly, yes?


AK/DD: MEM and monitor have already addressed the disallowed comments.

However, to Aurora/AK/DD and whomever is applicable:
I have some CLEAN commentary as response on the topic of the importance of love to Harry and to the septology:

On an academic note, I believe one item that JKR will NOT bring forward from the Greeks of yore, OR the early Christians, is the idea that heterosexual love is lower in worth than any of kind of love, simply because there is also the potential for partnership and creation. We know love between any two people can encompass love on many levels. Ok I’m done on this point.

HayCheng
To daveydee:
<snip>
I also hope for a universal love ending. Something alone the line that he forgive the wrong doing of V and feel compassion for him.

However, I find the continous dis for what love will defeat V is pointless. I also must agree due to the over rate of romantic in modern western culture, the H/Hr shippers' idea are as good as our universal love idea.


HeyCheng: Whilst we separate various loves for discussion, I think it’s important to recognise that it may be often misleading or futile to try to do so in real life. What I understand from your post is that a person or persons [here we assume Harry] should be capable of many kinds of love, on many levels. Potentially he or she may find these multiple kinds of love on many levels with another person.

Per the Song of Songs, and many other literatures, this relationship is a direct analogy to the relationship of the individual [or temple/church] as bride and God as groom. Or switch the genders up if you prefer, because it’s the idea of a complementary pair allowing each individual to be spiritually and physically fulfilled that’s important [as also in Taoist philosophy]. The relationship in its fullest, where love encompasses a love of the other’s soul is continually renewed, each for the other, and teaches each partner how to love [the world] unconditionally.

This path to God or Higher Spirit is considered by many in various parts of the world as the path to spiritual enlightment for the many, as opposed to priesthood or chastity and so forth for the few. I do agree with many of the others in that the love that Hermione can potentially provide is in a sense so deep, so constant, and so true that this may spell the difference between victory and defeat for Harry. She can strengthen and provide that wellspring, that source of renewal for the compassion he already displays. Her stand on slavery is in my book one of the clearest examples of her character’s compassion, universal love,and strength of conviction in her own right. Imagine a force like that standing beside you in life.


Mutant for Hire
One of the reasons I am anti-Harry/Hermione is due to the fact that the Harry Potter series, for all the fact that they show that life is sometimes unfair and sometimes things are shades of gray, tend to have a very strong moral undertone. The fact is that for all of Hermione's good deeds and the loyalty she's showing towards Harry, Hermione is also making mistakes that are ultimately going to undermine her campaign for Harry's affection. There are hints and clues as to this in book five that are set to explode in book six.

But the fact is that I think even Harry thinks that Hermione is interested in Ron because he's been chasing after her and she hasn't done anything to discourage him and that they tend to act like a couple a lot. Suddenly making a play to Harry is going to look to Harry as if she's suddenly dumped Ron. If she claims she was never interested in him,

And when the revelations about SPEW come out, Hermione might well realize that Ron isn't the idiot she tends to think he is. He was dead right in that argument and if she had listened to him, she wouldn't have had this nasty revelation.

And if he can patch things up with the House Elves and find out for Hermione what they really want and help craft a platform for SPEW that the House Elves could endorse, I think she'll have a lot of respect for him, and she might realize that Ron is more than she thought he was.

And of course he's not going to go out with the girl who hurt his best friend and gave Ron one more reason to be jealous of Harry, and in some ways the worst way of all

The cleanest solution in the timeframe given is for Hermione to realize that there's more to Ron than she thought, that she does care for him and that he is someone worthy of respect in his own right. If Hermione makes up with Ron, that instantly mends things elsewhere.

And Harry is not going to forgive Hermione for hurting and humiliating Ron until Ron himself forgives her, and the only way I see that reconciliation happening within the timeframe of the books is by Hermione changing her mind about Ron and deciding to go out with him instead. If this were book four I would change my mind, but I don't think Rowling has time for anything but a simple solution.


Mutant: I appreciate your nicely crafted post, though I basically completely disagree. But onward...:)
I won’t belabour the various points except to say generally that many of your arguments revolve in several areas around Ron’s feelings being central. Also many involve blaming either Hermione or Harry for not catering to Ron's happiness [does he really know what he wants anyway? he doesn't seem to deeply love Hermione but rather has just a crush].

For starters, that seems odd to me as Ron is not the main character, nor do I see why any one character’s feelings should override another’s. Successful relationships must develop from feelings on both sides, as I’m sure you agree. So then why would Ron’s feelings take precedence or be more important than Harry’s [potential yet unexamined, let’s say] feelings for Hermione, or Hermione’s [potential, and I would say already deep] feelings for Harry?

If H & Hr do care about each other or are in the process of finding they do [as I believe], -- and I realise you think think otherwise -- but if they do, why is it they have to sacrifice for Ron’s happiness? Is he potentially that selfish? Would he think so little of his friends and their happiness? In this way, Ron comes off like Cho, totally self-absorbed. I don’t hold Ron in such low regard, nor do I think you do so, and so it seems to me that if Ron’s crush is mostly or even completely one-sided -- which many feel it is -- then it seems only fair for Ron to step aside.

If Ron fails to do so in the situation I’ve presented, then in fact it may be Ron who has the rude letdown and who may be forced to grow up and be more giving and less self-centred. Paradoxically I’m willing to bet that it’s precisely at the moment he gets past the fantasy of the crush that he will experience the reality of love with someone else. Because that’s real life.

[Kassandra Amparo]

I don't think Dean and Ginny will last either. Ginny seems to be quite easy to love and also easy to leave. I don't know why but the only person i think might be able to have a long-long-term relationship with Ginny is Harry. I do hope they'll come closer in the end.

[sone]

"Will Dean and Ginny last?"

Who knows? I doubt it. But anyway, I would say Ginny has not found the person to fill that void. Personally I do not see it being Harry but rather Neville. I should try taking the girl at her word when she said to Hermione that she got over Harry until proven otherwise. But more importantly, I do not see it being Harry because....well he didn't even remember that Ginny spent more than half her first year being possessed by Tom Riddle. To be honest, I think Ginny was rather upset by that. Probably confirmed to her why she should not be after Harry. Everybody likes this new side of Ginny (so do I alot). She does seem to have alot of cat-like features (animagus anybody?) but I think it is Neville who likes these features more than Harry does.

On other hand, in all those bad memories Snape was bringing up, Harry can clearly remember how embarrassed Hermione was when she turned herself into the catwoman. I know somebody brought this up already but I really think this should not be overlooked. He can remember the spell Hermione put on his glasses to help him play Quidditch in their third year. They even work well together. The Chamber of Secrets, the Prisoner of Azkaban and in Goblet of Fire, learned that summoning from Hermione so well, he does not even have to say the name of the object he wants to summon anymore.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Uhm I don´t know if this last long between Dean and Ginny. Simply I don´t know Dean. What kind of person he is and what Ginny for him feels. So I can´t say anything to that.

I need to thank lleyki you said that what I couldn´t say.

Some people do really forget that this three are 15 and not 30 and have a dozen relationship behind.

How I said before and I do it again Love is mainplote and I do agree with Sirius in this door issue that Harry need love. A different kind of love as he already has.
The special thing by romantical love or real love is that this exist only between two people. Family love is in a whole family. That say by the Weasleys include it 9 persons with Harry ten. Friendship love is between friends. By this trio between Ron, Harry and Hermione.
But by romantical love will it be only Harry or only Hermione. Thats special. Something what in that case Harry don´t need to share with someone else. This love is a gift from another person and this gift is only for Harry for nobody else and that is what make this love so important. By all other kind of love Harry has to share it. He isn´t the only one who get it. Thats why romantical love is even on top of mother love. Mother love is special no doubt but if this mother has more childrens than again its a shared love. Thats by romantical love not like that.
Only once in Harrys live he got special love and thats now 14 or 15 years ago since he got it. He can´t remember how it felt to beloved in that way. No Ron, No Mrs. Weasley, No Mr. Weasley can give it to him. Even they tell him one million times he belongs to there family. Harry will never get the same feeling like Ron get it if he think about his family.
That what came close to that what Harry wanted to feel is now dead. Sirius. The only thing what would give Harry this kind of feeling that he is beloved that is romantical love.

I haven't any doubts that Harry know that people love him but do he feel it? Dos he feel that kind of love how he got it as he stood in front of the mirror? I say no. He don´t feel it, he don´t feel the same love like he felt as he couldn't bring himself to left the mirror where he saw where he belong. There lays the reason why Harry is that angry in OotP. Its not really that all this stuff did happen to him its much more the fact that there is no family who catch him if he falls. No one who is there even his friends aren´t there. No one who give him that what he want with all of his heart. Now after Sirius dead he is much more alone as before and there is where my ship really starts to sail. There is why I think Harry will fall for Hermione. Because she might be the one who don´t let him alone. Who don´t accept that Harry feels alone and maybe not accept that Harry think he have to solve Voldemort alone. She might be stubborne enough to nagge him and annoy him so long till he open his mouth till he say what is bothering him, what stole his spirit. Thats where Ginny don´t fit not from character and not from the closeness.

[GilyAnn]

"Will Dean and Ginny last?"


Well we have to start by if it ever started. Ginny could have been pulling Ron's leg. She said would you say is better. Instead of do you think it's better. By now Hermione must have told Ginny what was Ron's reactions. so we can't discard that she was pulling Ron's leg.

At the end of OotP when she revealed why she dumped Michael Corner, she didn't seem broken up about it in any way. Considering she started seeing him at the end of GoF, that means she was dating Michael for close to a year. Ginny showed an amazing lack of emotion for losing her first long term boyfriend.

I don't think Ginny was much into Michael Corner. She payed more attention to Harry than she did to Michael. We never saw them hanging out toguether. When he came to the table she called him a fool. I think this relationship was basicly over before it even started. I have a pet theory about that because it's highly rare for a 15year old girl to be this unattached. Specially her.

Gily Ann

[Kassandra Amparo]

Originally posted by sone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468207#post468207))
"Will Dean and Ginny last?"

Who knows? I doubt it. But anyway, I would say Ginny has not found the person to fill that void. Personally I do not see it being Harry but rather Neville.



well actually,i did think Ginny and Neville could be a nice couple before but then Harry seems to have more connections with Ginny than Neville does,especially eyes contacts :) And i would be happier to see Neville with Hermione. Don't you think they'd make a cute couple ??? :crush:

[sone]

Cute couple? Yes. Surprisingly, alot of them are. Realistic couple? No. I do not think Hermione looks at Neville but rather Harry that way. Also Harry and Ginny had more than their share of "disagreements". Neville and Ginny seem to stand up for each other. The time Ginny reacted rather sharply to Neville calling himself a nobody. The fact that Neville tried specifically to warn Ginny that the High Inquistorial squad had caught on to their ruse.

[Hawk 92]

Will Ginny and Dean last?

Nope. It is Ginny and Neville. SIGNS is still the way to go.

Actually we have just as many N/G moments as we do H/G moments right now so N/G is completely possible.

But I was looking at the part in OotP when we find out if JKR is creating a red herring or not,

OotP Ch 28 The Second War Begins pg 866

Ron's talking

"Good for you. Just choose someone--- better----next time."
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
"Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better? asked Ginny vaguely.
"WHAT?" shouted Ron, upending the chessboard.

Onn initial examination there is nothing to suggest a red herring. Ron has made a statement trying to reestablish the H/G ship and Ginny has given a counter statement that she has moved on. There isn't too much to suggest that this is a red herring. There is also little to suggest that Dean and Ginny will last at this point either.

Now people say that Ginny is just teasing Ron. Could be. What I find interesting is how she is teasing Ron. And to do that we go to the same page right above the quote I just gave

Ginny has just told Ron about breaking up with Michael

Ginny- She scratched her nose absently with the end of her quill, turned The Quibbler upside down and began marking her answers. Ron looked highly delighted.
Emphasis JKR

Now Ron looking highly delighted is because Ginny is not going out with Michael anymore. I think that is all that's being said here and has nothing to do with the rest of this post.

What is interesting is how Ginny is teasing Ron. She's acting like Luna to tease him. From holding The Quibbler upside down to speaking vaguely. Ginny is teasing Ron about Luna. Did Ginny see something we didn't? Possible. Ron is asking about her love life and relationships. Is Ginny responding about a certain girl (Luna) liking Ron?

Could be. Only time and JKR will tell.

Cheers!

[Kizz]

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468280#post468280))
"Will Dean and Ginny last?"
I don't think Ginny was much into Michael Corner. She payed more attention to Harry than she did to Michael. We never saw them hanging out toguether. When he came to the table she called him a fool. I think this relationship was basicly over before it even started. I have a pet theory about that because it's highly rare for a 15year old girl to be this unattached. Specially her.


(my first post in a love thread...its too fast moving)

I also got the impression Ginny either did have much of an interest or more hopefully, she could see right through Mr. Corner, JKR had Ron keep repeating the fact he is no good, emphesised by the way he took off with Cho at the end. I hope this is a sign that Ginny will be alot wiser when it come to love, and will therefore be alot stronger than any other girls we've seen so far. As for Dean/Ginny lasting - we don't know enough about Dean, only that he's understanding toward Seamus and Harry, -a loyal friend, and I think that's a good sign.

[Hawk 92]

I don't think that Ginny dating Dean is a red herring. I think its the truth and for a couple of reasons.

1) If JKR wanted to create a red herring at this point she wouldn't have given a specific name. She wouldn't have named Dean. She would have had Ginny say I'm already seeing someone else and left it vague.
2) If Ginny is not seeing Dean then she is lying. Both Ginny and JKR. Not creating a red herring but simply lying.
3) Ginny is not that cruel. By giving a name if she is lying she would be hurting Dean. Espically if it got back to Dean. How would Dean feel if he heard that he and Ginny were dating and none of it was true? Sorry. I don't think that Ginny would toy with a persons emotions like that.
4) A red herring has to have something that is a clue. This is a simple statement. Ginny is seeing Dean. Now this does not rule out H/G as Dean and Ginny can date and not work things out. So H/G is still possible. But I don't think that Ginny is lying or that this is a red herring.


This does however create another interesting point. When Ron suggests someone better Ginny asks if he thinks that Dean is better. Better than Michael or better than Harry?

Cheers!

[Iola]

OotP Ch 28 The Second War Begins pg 866

Ron's talking

"Good for you. Just choose someone--- better----next time."
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
"Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better? asked Ginny vaguely.
"WHAT?" shouted Ron, upending the chessboard.

When I was reading this exerpt posted by Hawk, suddenly, a flash of inspiration came into my mind; could this be a clue laid down by JK Rowling to mislead us by letting us think that Ron is hoping for a Harry/Ginny? When Ron mentioned someone better, could he be actually mean Neville? His furtive look at harry could be a half conspiratory, half wink sort to let harry see the connection between N/G as well.

Farfetched, yeah :p

[GilyAnn]

If JKR wanted to create a red herring at this point she wouldn't have given a specific name. She wouldn't have named Dean. She would have had Ginny say I'm already seeing someone else and left it vague.

This doesn't click in my mind. Because then she would be realy hinting that she is really seeing someone else. Ron doesn't think anyone is good. Or at least Ginny thinks so. She choosed someone closed to Ron. Obviously she wouldn't have choose Harry since first he is Ron's best friend.

If Ginny is not seeing Dean then she is lying. Both Ginny and JKR. Not creating a red herring but simply lying.

And Ginny lies all thru the book! She lies to her mother, to the gas thing. I think someone pointed out that Ginny was a good liar.

Ginny is not that cruel. By giving a name if she is lying she would be hurting Dean. Espically if it got back to Dean. How would Dean feel if he heard that he and Ginny were dating and none of it was true? Sorry. I don't think that Ginny would toy with a persons emotions like that.

As much as I love her character she is not an angel.

This does however create another interesting point. When Ron suggests someone better Ginny asks if he thinks that Dean is better. Better than Michael or better than Harry?

"Good for you. Just choose someone--- better----next time."

He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.

"Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better? asked Ginny vaguely.

"WHAT?" shouted Ron, upending the chessboard.

Better than Michael. The furtive look was notice by Harry not by Ginny.

Gily Ann

Edit:

Ginny hinting at Luna? :??: Ginny was doing The Quibbler's test!

[Erise]

My initial reaction at Ginny with Dean was something to the extent of 'Whoa, that's fast!'

I agree with Hawk92 - Ginny is indeed dating Dean, but I do not think they will last. We do not really know much about Dean to speculate on this, so I guess we can only wait and see.

I do see the possibility of Ginny/Neville now, although I never once saw it before. Without going deep into the text I think that the both of them will be good for the other - Ginny can encourage Neville to be more confident, and Neville is quite funny at times.

And nice catch Hawk! :clappy: It's definitely interesting as to how Ginny really seems to be hinting at Luna, and not Hermione.

[Muse]

Okay, I'm glad the issue of Ginny and Dean has finally been brought up, because I'm hoping for some enlightenment on something. I'm talking about Ron's reaction to Ginny and Dean going together. He was as equally upset at hearing Ginny mentioning Dean as when she mentioned she was going out with Michael Corner. Since Ron doesn't know Michael that well or at all, I can see why he would be upset at some point. However, this is Dean--canon doesn't to my knowledge define Dean as a player or anything of the negative sort. He's been both Ron and Harry's dormmate for the last 5 years, and both Ron and Harry know how good of a friend he is, not to mention that Ron has known Dean as long as he's known Harry. Then you take into consideration that Ron knows what Harry has just gone through--he lost another loved one really close to him, Voldemort has possessed and played with his mind, and we all know more or less how much in danger Harry's life is. Now if I was Harry's best friend and I had a baby sister, wouldn't I be a little leery about wanting to have my baby sister hook up with my best friend, despite knowing how good a person he is, because of the external circumstances surrounding him? I mean, I love Harry and all, but where a baby sister is concerned, wouldn't safety be an issue with me first before loyalty? And why wouldn't Ron be less upset at Ginny being with Dean? He's a good friend, just like Harry. He doesn't have a dark wizard after him, and he seems stable enough. Shouldn't Ron have been alittle bit more accepting, rather than "upending the chessboard" in the train compartment? Just wondering about this, mind you. :) :p

[GilyAnn]

However, this is Dean--canon doesn't to my knowledge define Dean as a player or anything of the negative sort. He's been both Ron and Harry's dormmate for the last 5 years, and both Ron and Harry know how good of a friend he is, not to mention that Ron has known Dean as long as he's known Harry.


I think the basic problem with Ron is that everybody would be unworthy of his sister exept Harry. He considers him the only one that is right for her. He knows Harry's background and what he is capable of doing or not. So in Ron's eyes the only one that deserves his sister is. He knows what Harry has gone thru and in his eyes Harry deserves someone great. Obviously as great as his sister.

Now if I was Harry's best friend and I had a baby sister, wouldn't I be a little leery about wanting to have my baby sister hook up with my best friend, despite knowing how good a person he is, because of the external circumstances surrounding him? I mean, I love Harry and all, but where a baby sister is concerned, wouldn't safety be an issue with me first before loyalty?

I think that's exactly it. Ron rathers have Ginny hook up with someone who he is close to than someone else. I think the big factor is how close Ron has been to Harry. And Ginny has already been near Voldemort's grip she is a target even without Harry.

Gily Ann

[FlyingPhoenix]

Is it only me or do someone else wondering why Harry should be better for Ginny?
I mean after all what we saw in OotP how Harry handle girls (Cho) and his bad temper, can Ron be serious if he think Harry is better for Ginny?

I prefer to think that Ron didn´t mean it that way, didn´t mean that Harry is better. I do more think that Ron prefer that Ginny would have still her little girl crush on Harry and run after him and never get him. Because Ron don´t want see Ginny with any guy not even with Harry. What he want by the way Ron was pretty happy with his imagination that Ginny has still a crush on Harry till he get that Ginny isn´t anymore interest in Harry. The worst thing is happen Ginny did open her eyes and is looking after a guy who likes her. Something what she didn´t do before.

[Earendil]

I really think that Ron is acting like a typical, irrationally overprotective older brother by trying to encourage H/G. Muse brought up a good point--it isn't safe to be Harry's girlfriend, or even to become too close to him, because there's always that possibility that Voldemort will try to use you as bait. Ron obviously hasn't considered this; he's so blinded by the ideal of his best friend taking care of his little sister and having this neat little brother-in-law situation that he hasn't even bothered to think of the consequences.

As for Dean and Ginny, well, this was so completely random that I wondered if it wasn't just Ginny kidding around with Ron. As of now, there's no substantial evidence to show if she was telling the truth or not, so I'm not too fussed about what's happening between these two. If there actually is something, it will be over sooner or later, I can guarantee that. Ginny has all the makings of a man-eater; I wouldn't be surprised if she goes through boyfriends faster than we go through love threads. Still, we have to wonder why she seems to be doing this, and why (in my opinion) Neville would be the best for her.

GilyAnn is going to hate this. ;) Anyway, Ginny is the youngest child and only girl of a family full of boys. I would infer that she has been treated as just this her entire life: a little girl. Not as another sibling or another brother for the boys to play around with; just as the solitary daughter in a house full to the brim of sons. Even Mrs. Weasley has shown almost ridiculous treatment of Ginny as a child by not letting her into a pyramid full of skeletons at the age of twelve. Honestly, I'm positive that she could have handled that. :rolleyes: Anyway, this behavior is understandable; girls are frequently regarded as being more delicate and/or precious when there are more boys in a family.

However, as Ginny grows up, she seems to be rebelling against these restrictions. We know that she was never allowed to play Quidditch with her brothers, yet she continued to learn to do so behind their backs and had enough skill to make the team. We know that she can lie through her teeth, even to her own mother, and even surprised Hermione with her ability to quickly think of a blatant lie. And I would bet my life that Mrs. Weasley doesn't know that Ginny has started dating.

Ginny seems to be trying to prove herself and her maturity, both to her peers and to herself. After being babied and coddled all her life, it's perfectly reasonable that she's engaging in a little rebellion away from home. Also, there's evidence that she's alot more magically powerful than she seems.

However worthy she may be, I honestly don't believe that she's intended for Harry, and here's one of the many reasons why: she needs someone who has been able to respect and admire her from the start. I believe that her friendship with Harry has been tainted by her silly behavior toward him from the first four books, and by the necessity of being rescued by him in CoS. I'm not saying that he doesn't like and respect her, but there is still that initial impression of the little girl who could barely talk in front of him and always dropped things whenever he looked at her, lasting for almost four years. This first impression will not easily be erased, no matter how much Ginny comes into her own and becomes a mature and powerful witch. There won't be enough time to gradually work in a newfound perception of Ginny, even if it has already started, because the image of her little-girlish crush is too strongly imprinted in Harry's mind. Even in OotP, he dismissed her as being too young to accompany them to the DoM. No matter how many Bat-Bogey Hexes she inflicts on people, I don't believe that Harry will be able to perceive Ginny as his equal in the next two books, and equality is essential in a relationship. He will want to shield her and protect her rather than go to her for help and counsel, and he will be under pressure from the Weasleys to protect her as well, because she will always be their little girl to them.

Which is where Neville comes in. Neville suffers from similar treatment; his abilities are rarely acknowledged and his grandmother seems to be more concerned with keeping him out of trouble than building up his self-confidence. I see alot of similarities between Neville and Ginny, and I believe that this gives them common ground. There is also the fact that Neville saw in Ginny what Harry seems to yet to discover; that she is a dateable girl. Even if he trod on her toes at the Yule Ball, he at least paid her enough attention to make a girl feel respected. Ginny seems to want to build up Neville's self-confidence, and Neville risked suffocation to save her from the Slytherins. I think that if anyone can view Ginny as being a woman rather than a girl, a talented and powerful witch rather than just another Weasley, it will be Neville.

Anyway, yay for the new thread. :clappy: Let's try to keep this one open as long as possible (meaning no more sex talk) and maybe we'll get to page 100? :sigh:

AK, hope you get to this soon and read Hawk's and my rebuttals to the second installment of your evidence on the original thread. Thanks for the kudos (also on the original thread), everyone else.

[MagiCils]

Ginny has been through a lot for one so young, it's not surprising that she seems to have matured quickly recently. I can't see it lasting with Dean, nit sure why; he just seems beneath her somehow... What I want to happen is for Harry to fall in love with Ginny now, but for her to have totally lost interest, heheh

[sone]

You know, I keep thinking about when Hermione asked Harry to help her sew elf clothes. I swear this boy can be EXTREMELY ignorant at times (though I admit at 15, I was just as ignorant).

Anyway, Harry does not even bother to ask himself "why would she ask me to help her sew elf clothes? Where would she get the idea that I know how to sew magically or otherwise? Have I ever given her the slightest impression that I was interested in S.P.E.W.?"

I am sure Harry thought that Hermione’s face was only “shining with glee�, because of S.P.E.W. I think it was because she was really hoping Harry would simply say “yes�. Not to mention her reaction when she thought Harry was a prefect. Now if Hermione just wanted Harry to help her sew elf hats, then where is the disappointment coming from? What I mean is, she knows Harry has never taken that kind of interest in S.P.E.W. nor has he been known to sew. Even magically, it takes skill and she never bothers to ask whether Harry can sew or not. What also interests me is when she says, “I'm getting better, I can do patterns and bobbles and all sorts of things now.� I thought this was kind of funny because IMO, she was trying to impress him. Harry, who probably does not have the slightest clue to any of this is just thinking “why would I want to sew elf clothes?� and says no.

I think Hermione really does have some confidence issues concerning a lot of things but most of all, Harry. I said on the last thread that Harry rejecting Hermione's offer for him to help her with the elf clothes hurt more than she let on. I still believe this is true because I don't believe she took it as Harry not wanting to sew elf clothes. I think she took it as Harry not wanting to spend time with her. She thought maybe “Harry doesn't like me; maybe he thinks I am ugly or maybe he just thinks I am not interesting at all.�

I think Hermione for certain was jealous of Cho not just because she kissed Harry, but because Cho did what Hermione was afraid to do. Hermione was too afraid of being rejected by Harry, so she tried advancing on him in a roundabout way (the elf clothes issue) that wouldn’t be too hurtful to her if he said no, which is why she looked only slightly disappointed. But Harry and Cho should have given Hermione a clue. The only time Cho was ever really successful with Harry (kissing him I mean) was when she was direct with him. She revealed all her feelings to Harry in the DA room, how upset she still was at Cedric being dead, how good of a teacher she thought he was and the fact she did like him. Cho advanced on Harry in ways Hermione has been too afraid to do for three years (three years IMO). I am also sure that Hermione felt worse because Harry does back flips for a girl that is not like herself. She is pretty, popular, athletic and plays Quidditch. Hell, she is even smart. She is in Ravenclaw after all. Hermione’s confidence I think really went down the tubes here. Hermione does not really like Quidditch itself, is not popular, is afraid of flying, not athletic at all and she herself has never thought of herself as pretty. To herself, I’m thinking she asks “how could I ever think I could be appealing to Harry?� Let alone all the people in their fourth year who called Hermione “the thing� Krum would miss most. She is so upset by all of this; she does not even notice that Harry really is not as happy as he should be about finally kissing his crush. When Hermione told Harry that “girls do not ask questions like that�, she was also speaking about herself. Harry said, “well they should�. Hermione should very well listen to Harry on that. With that said, let me explain why I think Hermione started to have real feelings for Harry back in the Prisoner of Azkaban.

In the Chamber of Secrets, Hermione fell for Gilderoy Lockhart, not just because he was handsome but also because she thought he was very brave in all those books he wrote about himself doing great things. Hermione very much likes bravery. As a matter of fact, this is the first thing she finds appealing about Viktor and then finds much to her liking that he is a lot more complex than what he is given credit for. Harry to Hermione is all these things. A female friend of mine once told me that she thought Harry having “jet black� hair and “brilliant� green eyes was a very appealing look. Not to mention that though Harry is skinny and has almost knobby knees, he is quite athletic and I think would his build would reveal as such. In my opinion only, but I think these things very much appeal to Hermione.

Also Gilderoy made a living writing about stories of bravery and heroics that he was not capable of. Not Harry. Harry is actually who Gilderoy wants to be; famous, rich, brave and heroic. Hermione does not care for the famous or rich part, but she does very much care for the brave and heroic part. Hermione I believe had the same reaction back in the first and second year that Lavender Brown and Hannah Abbott had when they hear about all the things Harry had done in their fifth year. It is one thing to save the stone from Voldemort, but killing a Basilisk with nothing but a sword, at age twelve no less. I think Hermione started believing near the end of the book that Harry really is great. Of course as Hermione starts to know Harry more and more she finds out that not only does he have a sharp mind (she was quite impressed with Harry being able to pick up the clues from the page she tore out and getting some external clues himself in COS), but that Harry has an unusual amount of strength, courage and determination in him. I believe she is very taken by this. It was in POA, Hermione started for the first time holding on to Harry’s arm when she was scared. Like I said, she likes bravery and Harry exudes so much of it. She feels safe and/or steadier when she does. The hippogriff was also a clear sign of this. It is the first time Hermione really starts crying (or is in tears) in fear of Harry dying. It was also the first time I saw Hermione feeling particularly competitive about Harry beating Slytherin in Quidditch because she could not stand to see Malfoy win. That tension she so detested in OOTP.

[Perdita]

Will Dean and Ginny Last?

I don't think so. I see Rowling building up interaction between Neville and Ginny, so I think that ship will be more likely to be realized and sustained in the novels.

A big :welcome: to all the new posters and returning posters! Stick around! ;)

*****
Excellent post, sone! We've skirted the issue in the previous thread, but I don't think anyone really made all these connections with Hermione's behaviour through the series like you have. :tu:

[evaluna]

FP Great post re: Harry and why he needs the love of Hermione.

Hmm.. I see no one’s touching my post w/the proverbial 10-foot pole. Ah well, with time and allround adherence to rules, I’m sure we’ll eventually swing back round to this and every other topic again as well…;)


Okay re: Dean and Ginny, I’ve not a lot to say here that hasn’t just already been said but a few words:

Sone: interesting post re: Ginny, Hermione and the cat angle. Worth exploring further. And great summary post just now on Hermione as well!

------------------QUOTES----------------------------
<quote from ?>
I think the basic problem with Ron is that everybody would be unworthy of his sister exept Harry. He considers him the only one that is right for her. He knows Harry's background and what he is capable of doing or not. So in Ron's eyes the only one that deserves his sister is. He knows what Harry has gone thru and in his eyes Harry deserves someone great. Obviously as great as his sister.

FP:
Is it only me or do someone else wondering why Harry should be better for Ginny?
I mean after all what we saw in OotP how Harry handle girls (Cho) and his bad temper, can Ron be serious if he think Harry is better for Ginny?

Earedil:
However worthy she may be, I honestly don't believe that she's intended for Harry, and here's one of the many reasons why: she needs someone who has been able to respect and admire her from the start.
<snip>
I think that if anyone can view Ginny as being a woman rather than a girl, a talented and powerful witch rather than just another Weasley, it will be Neville.
----------------------END QUOTES------------------------

Agree with all of these posts.
It does seem possible that Ron just hasn’t yet been able to accept that Ginny has grown up and is now dating boys. Clearly Ron trusts Harry and knows that Harry is brave, but at some level he’s probably well aware that Harry’s shown zero interest in Ginny thus far and that at present there’s very little likelihood of this event {H/G]. So by Ron, it’s okay if Ginny were to remain alone, a little girl with crushes forever. He’s still learning to handle the fact that she’s growing up, has said and certainly acts like she’s over the schoolgirl crush, and is moving into her first dating relationships.

Truthfully Harry is not only not the obvious match for Ginny, per FP and Earendil (great posts, btw, and I think Neville has a real shot), but as FP also said, it's also that a relationship with Harry is not for everyone. He’s got all that stuff going on, you know, fighting Voldy and saving the wizarding world and perhaps humankind – and let’s not forget he’s nearly joined at the hip with Hermione in OoP. That is (tongue in cheek)..er..it would certainly require a special girl to understand that IMO Hermione will always be first with Harry. I think Ginny’s a lot more perceptive than Ron regarding relationships, and that she’s seen this closeness between H/Hm and for its part [along with Harry’s temper], this is probably one of the big reasons why she moved on to pursue emotionally available ..er…targets ;).
Cheers!:smooch:

[Sirius83]

Before starting: Morgoth, thanks for giving us another thread to work with. Everyone, let's try to keep on topic and in good spirits. From here on in, let the mods only need to restart the thread because it is getting too long. Let's not have them watching our backs for stupid things.

Right, back on topic. Will Dean and Ginny last? I'm not entirely sure. Most of you know of my "3 book crush" theory where i think JKR has demonstrated a crush that lasts for 3 books before the person finds their final match. Now evidentaly after Ginny's crush on Harry, she didn't last with Michael, she's already not following this trend. Anyway, if she will last with Dean depends on what we find out about him later on.

However, i got the impression Ginny may turn out as the girl who cycles through boyfriends faster than a Ferrari on a racetrack. Sorry for that analogy, i'm a bit car crazy. Dean and Ginny may last a little while but i'm of the belief once Ginny settles down, she will be with Neville. If she lives - which i think is quite likely now.

Was she telling the truth about dating Dean? Yeah, i got the impression she was telling the truth. How serious she is about him...well, he could be just a passing interest. I am fairly certain she really is seeing Dean now though.

[FlyingPhoenix]

First sone and evaluna great post so far.

Though I have to disagree in some points with you sone. She is so upset by all of this; she does not even notice that Harry really is not as happy as he should be about finally kissing his crush. When Hermione told Harry that “girls do not ask questions like that�, she was also speaking about herself. Harry said, “well they should�. Hermione should very well listen to Harry on that. With that said, let me explain why I think Hermione started to have real feelings for Harry back in the Prisoner of Azkaban. Thats the very point where I disagree. I don´t think Hermione didn´t get it that Harry wasn´t that happy about this kiss. No, I do think she did get it very well because how she react she is rather distant and brisk what say to me that she don´t like the way how Cho do corner Harry. How I did explain is it that Cho has unsolved feelings and isn´t sure if she even like Harry though she is selfish enough to do so. Maybe there is a part true what you say that Hermione think if she could be only a tiny bit more selfish in that case. But Hermione do in the same time dislike Cho for this because this girl bring pressure on Harry. She make his difficult life more difficult with her selfish doing. There is where I think is Hermiones real problem not that much Harry don´t want spent time with her. Its much more the problem that she might make Harrys live with her feelings more difficult.
How much I do see your points with that Hermione has feelings since PoA so much do I disagree. Not complett off course you are right that there do Hermione start to grap after Harrys arm and is much more emotional but this don´t say she has since that a crush at Harry. Thats says only this friendship feelings are growing deeper maybe crose the line but Hermione isn´t aware of it. Not till GoF at the end or even till OotP. I´m not sure if she admint it that she has feelings beyond friendship for Harry. Its even possible that she half do believe there is more and half believe its still friendship.

[haycheng]

Hi evaluna , I am by no mean are against romantic love. Moreoever, I also agree we really cannot seperate love into different quality. Ever a romantic love, there is always a mixture of fatherly or motherly in it. I also understand the idea about the goom and bride idea in religous (christisan). I guess I simply pay more attention toward the idea of forgiving in the bible. The idea that we do not meet eye to eye, instead one must forgive. Ever on the cross, Christ prayed for the ones who killed him. To me, this is the most amazing love. It is easy to love someone who love you back. It is hard to love your enemy.

Christisan do not lower love between husband and wife(at least in the Bible). It is clear that the Lord have considered it is important. However, Chirst did mention it is hard to take the path of a priest and be single in God name. It is indeed a gift to walk this hard path. Not many are given this job because most can not take it. It is clear in the bible when someone ask Jesus if marry is profitable. (The person asked about divorce issue).

I do believe sometime the western culturre over emphize the romantic love. Just look at how many movie of romantic love every year. Most of them do not ever show deep bond between the couples.

Back to the post:
Ginny love life
I believe she is simply try to have some fun and prove that she is grow up. She will continous to date for awhile, but do not seem like she will find the Mr. Right for awhile. I think people are too hard on her when they say she go throught too many boyfriends. Since she has not made any committment, I do not see the problem of doing it. She has not showed sign of toying with boy either.
I do not think Ginny and Dean will last. I simply have a feeling that JKR want her to cycle few more guys before she finds the Mr. Right.

Welcome backeveryone and let us do better this time.
:grouphug:

[HP_WizKid]

Well personally Idont think so.I got from OOTP that Ginny like Sirius said,is probably going to have a couple of more bf in the next books.I also dont think shes totallt over Harry so this is probably a sort of process of getting Harry out of her system ,whether itll work Im not sure ,not until she finds that right guy.And being a H/Hr and not a H/G I dont think thats Harry .Though I'd like to see Ginny and Neville,which I think is very possible.
Ron doesnt like Ginnys bf's because their not Harry which I think is very unfair,I honestly dont think Harry is right for Ginny and I so want to see Ginny find a nice guy thats the right one for her.Ron however wont give up trying to push them togeterbecause hes really starting to become concious of H and Hr relationship.
Anyway this Harry and the Love door thing,Im loving all you guys posts on this ,FP and Evaluna etc..I really think Hermione is that one special person to give Harry the love he needs,Ive always thought about that,how Harry hasnt had that sort of love (I know the weasleys show him love but it cant really compare to the love he needs)and I feel soo sorry for Harry which is a big reason I H/Hr(no not beacuse I feel sorry for him) because I think Hermione and Hermione only is the one to give him that.Ive always thought of how anyone ,whos not as big fans as us guys of Harry,take the fact that Harry is an Orphan for granted,they just kinda throw it aside ,take it too lightly,when its one of the biggest factors/themes/whatever of the book and it really does sadden me when I think of Harry that way:'(
Okay Ive rambled off the subject,sorry!
One more thing ,in the 4th book GoF,Vol says that he will create alliances with another group of creatures which is feared by all,is it the Heliopaths perhaps or what.
ok byeee

[evaluna]

HayCheng: Thank you for your post. This is a critical theme in the book and I really enjoy a serious response.
I think what I'm trying to say is that I also agree that redemption and ultimate spiritual enlightment involve universal love and forgiveness, so we are not in disagreement. I also think the often cheesy and superficial presentation of romance in culture and media is denigrating to the higher love that can exist between two persons. And I'm glad you understand what I mean when I say that the way for the many to universal love is through a soul bonding with another. Actually, early church founders were quoted as saying better to marry than to burn (new testament, St. Augustine, et al) and there is extensive church literature on the path of the many via marriage being a lower spiritual path than that of the few, via priesthood, sainthood, hermitage or an otherwise solitary path. And this is not just a Western concept, lest anyone think I'm picking on anything. Historically many parts of the world felt this way. But clearly many today would not hold with that interpretation because times have changed. Now both paths, that of the many and of the few, are seen as equally valid for spiritual enlightenment. My vote is that in this regard, Harry will take the path of the many to universal love, whilst you may feel he will take the path of the few to universal love. But it's all good, as we can be a sounding board for each other's interpretation.

FP, HPWizkid: Thanks! Here's to more great discussions in future!

[Mad Eye Mike]

"Good for you. Just choose someone--- better----next time."
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
"Well, I've chosen Dean Thomas, would you say he's better? asked Ginny vaguely.
"WHAT?" shouted Ron, upending the chessboard.


This is pure speculation on my part:

You know, on it’s own, it seems like Ron was recommending Harry as the 'next time' guy. Remember in GoF when Ron asked Hermione if she really was brewing love potions to play with Krum and Harry’s hearts? And then in OotP, he got angry when Hermione said Harry wasn’t a bad kisser. That makes two times now he has suspected there is something going on between Harry and Hermione. Taking those instances into account, it’s possible Ron’s suggestion is his way of eliminating Harry as a possible rival for Hermione’s heart.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So I quote now haychengs signature. Its probably my favouriet part from the bible. Yeah I did read the new testament. So I knew what I say now. To me, this is the most amazing love. It is easy to love someone who love you back. It is hard to love your enemy.
I personal don´t know a human beeing who love his enemy. I do think that this one from the bible is something byond meaning of love. I need to make it clear its more an example like an ideal. How it should be. How people should do it. If we all did love the way how Haychengs signature say I´m sure there wouldn´t exist an enemy. Thats the very point of what Jesus did say.

Now what has that to do with HP? Its simple its about love and how I see it this serie is about love. Not any love, its about all kind of love.
You might see it in my signature too that I think the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and beloved in return. This could we take as motto for this HP serie.
Harrys task is to learn to love und to beloved and for that he need someone who do him love and I mean this special way of love. A love which he didn´t need to share. Something what is once in a lifetime. His mother did love Harry in a special way, in a way where he could or would feel beloved. Thats the case. The Weasleys can petrend they love him like a 8th brother or his friends can pretend he love him but he won´t feel it. He won´t feel this secure Love which kids get from the parents. Normally is this love that strong that kids could be murderer and still feel the love of they mother. That is what I mean and that is what Harry not has.
There lies probably that where I think comes true love in play. I know some of you might laugh or think I´m insane but this exist. This kind of love exist and there are people out there who do feel it this love. A love which is even that strong like mother love if not stronger because it would be love by choice.
Only if Harry falls in love he might solve his own problem to feel be alone or unloved.

[evaluna]

MEM:
"This is pure speculation on my part:

You know, on it’s own, it seems like Ron was recommending Harry as the 'next time' guy. Remember in GoF when Ron asked Hermione if she really was brewing love potions to play with Krum and Harry’s hearts? And then in OotP, he got angry when Hermione said Harry wasn’t a bad kisser. That makes two times now he has suspected there is something going on between Harry and Hermione. Taking those instances into account, it’s possible Ron’s suggestion is his way of eliminating Harry as a possible rival for Hermione’s heart."

MEM, yes, this fits in with earlier theory posted that Ron himelf could potentially be added to the list from the old thread of those who see H/Hr as a couple or couple-in-the-making. I agree and your tie-in back to GoF is sound. It did seem that Ron wondered not just about Krum, who was "out' with his feelings about Hermione, but Harry as well. If this is the case, then we could possibly assert that in OoP Ron may well be trying to keep quiet about/get over his crush based on what he sees or suspects is developing between Harry and Hermione. This could also fit well with Sirius's 3-book crush theory, with Ron finally getting over his crush and getting on with it in Book 6.

FP:
"Harrys task is to learn to love und to beloved and for that he need someone who do him love and I mean this special way of love. A love which he didn´t need to share. Something what is once in a lifetime."


FP, this is beautiful. It IS Harry's task, for so many reasons. To recognise and fulfill his deepest desire. To meet the basic human need for connection on many levels with another [path of the many]. To attain a deeper universal love as a result. To mature as a man and take on this next step in his development, as with anyone. To learn how to use his deepest desires and potentially his greatest vulnerabilities as his greatest strengths in the fight for good and against evil. And so on.
100 % agree.

[Hawk 92]

I still don't think that Ginny is lying about going out with Dean.

1) If its a lie then why give a name? This makes it too easy to confirm the fact if its a lie or the truth. A lie would have been something like "I'm seeing someone else." Leaving difficult to confirm or deny.
2) Dean is a good friend of Harry's and Ron's. Once again if this is a lie it would be too easy for Harry and Ron to verify it with Dean. If Ginny was lying shouldn't she choose someone a little more distant from Harry and Ron? In another house so to speak?

But I'll stress that this doesn't mean that Dean and Ginny will last.

Now what's interesting is that Ginny knows that Cho is now going out with Michael and that Harry is no longer with Cho. But she goes out with Dean. I think that Ginny really is over Harry.

Cheers!

[evaluna]

Hawk: Yeah I tend to agree. I think we're supposed to see Ginny over Harry for real and moving on. Ginny like Hermione, Harry, Ron, the twins, and even Cho, has been known to tell white lies to save a friend from harm or trouble. However, I don't think we're to view her as heartless. She's young and Dean may be just a boyfriend, but I agree we have no reason to suspect she's lying without disparaging her character, and I do like Ginny well enough after OoP and her showing real backbone. I just don't see her with Harry. I don't see the interest on either side. I certainly don't see Ginny as the wait-in-wings kind of girl at all anymore and more power to her. I can see Ginny with Neville longterm, as they seem complementary and respectful of one another. However we don't know much about Dean and he too seems an upstanding bloke. Perhaps if he and Ginny don't last, he'll end up with Parvati, Lavender, or some such?

[sone]

Thank you Perdita.

Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468708#post468708))
Though I have to disagree in some points with you sone. Thats the very point where I disagree. I don´t think Hermione didn´t get it that Harry wasn´t that happy about this kiss. No, I do think she did get it very well because how she react she is rather distant and brisk what say to me that she don´t like the way how Cho do corner Harry. How I did explain is it that Cho has unsolved feelings and isn´t sure if she even like Harry though she is selfish enough to do so. Maybe there is a part true what you say that Hermione think if she could be only a tiny bit more selfish in that case. But Hermione do in the same time dislike Cho for this because this girl bring pressure on Harry. She make his difficult life more difficult with her selfish doing. There is where I think is Hermiones real problem not that much Harry don´t want spent time with her. Its much more the problem that she might make Harrys live with her feelings more difficult.


I'll have to address this later as I am going back out in a bit but a very excellent point.


How much I do see your points with that Hermione has feelings since PoA so much do I disagree. Not complett off course you are right that there do Hermione start to grap after Harrys arm and is much more emotional but this don´t say she has since that a crush at Harry. Thats says only this friendship feelings are growing deeper maybe crose the line but Hermione isn´t aware of it. Not till GoF at the end or even till OotP. I´m not sure if she admint it that she has feelings beyond friendship for Harry. Its even possible that she half do believe there is more and half believe its still friendship.


This only where she starts having feelings for Harry. I agree, I do not even think she is aware of them yet but this is where they really start to deepen.

[evaluna]

Sone, actually I agree. Per boggart theory, as you know :) in PoA, which I can't help but hope has some merit for septology in the end. If so, then Hermione may not have fully examined or admitted her feelings here [PoA], but this may be the initial instance of them. Sirius offers another point [PKA in OoP] at which Hermione might first become undeniably aware of her feelings for Harry. And regardless of how fully Hermione may have examined or denied her feelings since PoA, if the boggart theory holds, then certain key administrative/Order members [DD, McG, Lupin] have been aware of her...focused concern and...depth of feeling toward Harry since that time. Additionally, and granted this is theory, others have mentioned that there are the time-turner hippogriff scenes whose existence may have come about based on DD's knowledge of Hermione's position -- that is, why he put the 2 of them on the task rather than just Harry.

[Mad Eye Mike]

My opinion, there's no reason to think Ginny was lying about Dean. If it had been written that immediately after telling Ron she gave Hermione an devilish grin or something then maybe I could believe she was just pulling his tail. I think she is dating Dean and I have a feeling that in book 6, we're going to see that played out for laughs [like Ron will overhear Dean talking about hot date or so].

I also have this bad feeling book 6 is going to be more angsty. I think one of the reasons it was toned down so much in OotP is because in book 6, we'll begin to see the true pairings - or at least the characters beginning to realize what's truly going on. I think it has to because there will be too much to deal with in book 7 for all this to start. I think book 6 is where it takes shape and book 7 finalizes things.

I think Harry will begin to come to a slow realization over the course of the book about Hermione; I think Luna will let Ron know she likes him [more than she already has]; As such, I think Ron will be confused when he realizes he may not really like Hermione the way he thought and I think Hermione will remain a mystery. I have no idea about Neville or Ginny. I have theories about them, but nothing worth posting.

[GilyAnn]

I prefer to think that Ron didn´t mean it that way, didn´t mean that Harry is better. I do more think that Ron prefer that Ginny would have still her little girl crush on Harry and run after him and never get him. Because Ron don´t want see Ginny with any guy not even with Harry. What he want by the way Ron was pretty happy with his imagination that Ginny has still a crush on Harry till he get that Ginny isn´t anymore interest in Harry. The worst thing is happen Ginny did open her eyes and is looking after a guy who likes her. Something what she didn´t do before.

What makes you think then than she is good for Hermione? I think Ron's intention are real. He rather have his sister with Harry the boy he has been sharing a room and it his body for 5 years now than a nobody that he doesn't know who he is.

Muse brought up a good point--it isn't safe to be Harry's girlfriend, or even to become too close to him, because there's always that possibility that Voldemort will try to use you as bait.

The thing is that with or without Harry ,Ginny is already a target. Ginny won’t need Harry to be a target. She just needs that Malfoy spill the beans on her. Voldi has never been to keen on people surviving him.

I honestly don't believe that she's intended for Harry, and here's one of the many reasons why: she needs someone who has been able to respect and admire her from the start.

Again she if she is not good for Harry then neither is Hermione.

This first impression will not easily be erased, no matter how much Ginny comes into her own and becomes a mature and powerful witch. There won't be enough time to gradually work in a newfound perception of Ginny, even if it has already started, because the image of her little-girlish crush is too strongly imprinted in Harry's mind. Even in OotP, he dismissed her as being too young to accompany them to the DoM. No matter how many Bat-Bogey Hexes she inflicts on people, I don't believe that Harry will be able to perceive Ginny as his equal in the next two books, and equality is essential in a relationship. He will want to shield her and protect her rather than go to her for help and counsel, and he will be under pressure from the Weasleys to protect her as well, because she will always be their little girl to them.

First H/Hr are always saying how Hermione has developed in the books. What makes you think that think that Ginny can’t do the same? Which she already has started to developed from CoS but people didn’t notice. The fact that Harry has jet to discover that Ginny is a girl and not Ron’s sister is a good sign on her own. Harry has just started to get to know the real Ginny. The one that is good at flying the one that it’s good at a lot of things he didn’t know. It doesn’t take that much to notice that Ginny is a girl. I often wonder what would his opinion would have been if he would have seen Ginny catch the Snitch in front of Cho’s face. I believe that Harry will notice that Ginny is a girl and one that he will knock his head with a broomstick for being so stupid of not pay attention earlier. A little suffering on Harry's part before they get toguether would be fun to read.

I won’t even go into the Neville/Ginny thing it seems clear to me that Neville is in love with Hermione. I’m with MEM on that.

However, i got the impression Ginny may turn out as the girl who cycles through boyfriends faster than a Ferrari on a racetrack.

I have no words to express how much I disagree with this! Ginny is definetly the under dog of the HP world. First she is too shy, now she is too fast. At first Harry can't be with a girl so inferior to him now he can't be with a girl so amazing like her. First she never had experience, now she has too much experience! Poor Ginny she never wins!

Gily Ann

[evaluna]

MEM: "...and I think Hermione will remain a mystery"

MEM, do you think Hermione is a total mystery, a partial mystery, or more just an official mystery? I ask in all seriousness and with respect. I'm just curious to hear more. I think there are certainly things in OoP at the least that lend suspicion re: Hermione's feelings, so I'm wondering what your current position is on the matter.

[FlyingPhoenix]

What makes you think then than she is good for Hermione? I think Ron's intention are real. He rather have his sister with Harry the boy he has been sharing a room and it his body for 5 years now than a nobody that he doesn't know who he is.

First Hermione knows Harry much better as Ginny dos it. And I did speak about Ron as big brother and if I imangine as big brother who rather see his baby sister with someone who has the most evil wizard since a centure after him and don´t show real feelings for his crush who he had since 3th year and is rather bad tempered and even forget Ginnys worst year in her live than I do expect that Ron don´t want Ginny to end up with Harry. Even he is sometimes nice, lovely, brave and all this stuff he is still someone who could hurt her badly and don´t even get it. I didn´t speak about H/Hr I did speak about Ron and how he look at his sister and that is very different to Hermione. Hermione isn´t his sister and so she wouldn´t care what he think with who she falls.
For me is it quiet normal that a brother prefer that she still had this silly girl crush on Harry which he won´t return. A save thing is that its nearly as if she is in a convent. Because she won´t look after other guys who like her and don´t ignore her like Harry do it. Thats why Ron looks at Harry and wish that she would go back to that.

[Mad Eye Mike]

eva - it's okay if you ask. ;)

JKR knows the romantic pairings are a very big part of what keeps people talking about her books. I'm sure she's also aware that if she were to finalize them in book 6, many people won't look forward as feverishly to book 7. So I believe that while book 6 will be more angsty, nothing will be set in stone. We'll just begin to see things take more shape.

In regards to Hermione: When I said mystery, I meant that I don't think we'll get a scene in book 6 where she openly declares her love for Harry. No way. I think we'll get more scenes like the PK scene in OotP where it's obvious she likes Harry, but she won't actually come out and say it to him [and to us the readers]. I think we'll get a comment here, a look there and in some cases both together, but I don't see her jumping in Harry's arms screaming "I love you!" until book 7.

[evaluna]

MEM. Thanks for clarification! *whew* I feel much better now.
You are very likely correct. JKR will keep us hanging until the last possible moment & give tons more fodder for discussion. So probably more of the same there...

Likely [er.. hopefully anyway] what we will see that is different in Book 6 is that growing awareness from Harry's POV, as you mentioned. And about time, as well!

[seeker-girl]

I don't think Dean and Ginny will last. I think she still likes Harry. I think Ginny and Neville would be a great couple, although Harry and Ginny seem to get on pretty well in OoTP. :whistle:

[haycheng]

Since we got a new thread, I jus want to restate my stand on the whole romantic issue.
yard stick for Harry's gf
1) must accept variety of people which include but not limited to Muggle-lover(Mr.Wesly), Muggle(Hermione), wereworlf(lupin), giants(Hagrid), house elves(Dobby), phyco(mad-eyes), etc

2)must be perceptive enough to see Harry is interested in her(I believe harry will not actively seek gf after the dead of Sirus)

3) Must be the one that push the relationship(reason as 2)

4) must accept Hermione's place in Harry life. And replace some of her function eventually. (none can stand their bf always ask his female best friend for advice, right?)

5)also take Hermione's role in keeping Harry in check(make sure his action do not do harm). Of course, there is always the opinion that he would do it himself.

These prbably did not help much as both Ginny and Hermione are qualify. Loony is too dreamy to push the issue. They are not interested each other anyways. Cho can not accept Hermione's place and we can rule her out too.

Summary on relationships

H/Hr:
Pro:
They know each other for 4 years old. They have accepted each other and value each other.
Harry always trusts Hermione’s logic and Hermione always admires Harry’s characteristic (bravery, loyal, etc).
They are willing to give up valuable thing for each other and have risked their neck for each other more than once.
They are also very considered about each other’s feeling when they are in a normal state (elves issue, etc)
Harry has clearly said Hermione is not ugly. In Yale ball, he is surprise by Hermione’s beauty. Therefore, we may able to conclude that he think Hermione is pretty.
Would hermione's cat opinion imprortant? That cat certain enjoy harry's company. (I will leave it there for here, some agree, some do not)
Con:
Harry considers Hermione is bothersome sometime. There are times he prefers not to see Hermione because he knows her opinion.

H/G
Pro:
They share certain experience. (Being controlled by Big V)
both love Quidditch and they will be one the same team next year(I think)
Ginny is new in the eyes of Harry. (As some have mention, new may be a factor of a beginning of relationship)
They share the characteristic of recklessness.
Ron has showed supportive to this relationship. (Minor pro)
Harry likes Wesley family in general. He is longing for a family. (Minor pro)
Con:
There is nothing at this very moment due to lack of info. However, lack of information itself may be a con. It means Harry have yet consider she is more than a common friend who is sister of his best friend.
Hermione is kind of in the way.

[Earendil]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Again she if she is not good for Harry then neither is Hermione.

:??: My original post had nothing to do with Hermione. I was making the point that Harry isn't good for Ginny--not the other way around.

First H/Hr are always saying how Hermione has developed in the books. What makes you think that think that Ginny can’t do the same? Which she already has started to developed from CoS but people didn’t notice

Because Hermione has been voraciously developed as a character for five books, whereas Ginny has been in the background. Ginny has developed plenty as of OotP, but her few scenes and occasional mentions can't even compare with Hermione's almost constant presence in each book. The fact is still that some characters have been more thoroughly developed through their actions, words, and behavior than other characters who are rarely on the scene.

I have no words to express how much I disagree with this! Ginny is definetly the under dog of the HP world. First she is too shy, now she is too fast. At first Harry can't be with a girl so inferior to him now he can't be with a girl so amazing like her. First she never had experience, now she has too much experience! Poor Ginny she never wins!

You're right about that. :sigh: Ginny confuses me a little because of her drastically different behavior in OotP, but I don't mind the girl. I hope that it wasn't my post that makes you think that her character is being contradicted. If it was, let me know and I'll try to clarify my stance.

In regards to book 6 romance alone, I also don't think we'll be seeing anything definitive. It wouldn't make sense to finalize any relationships before book seven, because there needs to be room for the characters to develop in relation with the changing plot circumstances.

Thanks for reposting your summary, haycheng. :)

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
I won’t even go into the Neville/Ginny thing it seems clear to me that Neville is in love with Hermione. I’m with MEM on that.


:??: I never said Neville was in love with Hermione. I said he treats her with more respect than Ron does and because of that, I wouldn't mind if N/Hr became a couple. I don't think he's in love with her though. Crush maybe, but not love. As a matter of fact, the only people I think are even capable of falling in love are H/Hr. Only because every other relationship - H/G, H/L, R/Hr, R/L, N/G, N/Hr, N/L - hasn't been built up long enough and properly for true love.

[GilyAnn]

First Hermione knows Harry much better as Ginny dos it.

Hermione knows Harry sooo much. That she went ahead behind his back and reported him on the Firebolt without telling him(just because she was right it doesn't mean that is okay to have done that). Hermione knows Harry so much that she went ahead and when Harry had a fight with Ron she didn't bother to understand Harry's feelings she explained Ron's to Harry. She knows him so much that she didn't notice that Harry was doubting himself on the Cho thing. She knows him so much that she speaks ill of the only person that Harry considers like a family (Sirius). Right she knows him so much that instead of understand his feelings she went ahead and ask for Pig on the prefect thing, without sitting down and talking about it. Hermione simply doesn't reach Harry and to top it all up she annoys him constantly. She doesn't try that much to reach him and when she does she fails.

My original post had nothing to do with Hermione. I was making the point that Harry isn't good for Ginny--not the other way around.

If Harry isn't good enough for Ginny then he isn't good enough for any girl not even Hermione. We have then a Hero alone. Any gilfriend of Harry is on danger. Ginny just happend to be one that is a target anyway because she knows too much. She shared too much with the old Riddle and I can bet anything that once Malfoy spill the beans on Ginny and the Weasley. Ginny is on Voldemort high list.

Because Hermione has been voraciously developed as a character for five books, whereas Ginny has been in the background. Ginny has developed plenty as of OotP, but her few scenes and occasional mentions can't even compare with Hermione's almost constant presence in each book. The fact is still that some characters have been more thoroughly developed through their actions, words, and behavior than other characters who are rarely on the scene.

Ginny has been developed as Hermione. Hermione is still stuck in some areas. Having a constant presense it doesn't mean that a character has been developed. In the last thread Mutant for Hire made an excellent post on the few things that even though Hermione has been there since the beginning and she has had some kind of development, she still needs a lot of help. Harry's LI does not need to be constantly in your face kind of thing. Which makes Ginny one of the perfect candidates among other girls. That including Luna, Lavender and Pavarti.

You're right about that. Ginny confuses me a little because of her drastically different behavior in OotP, but I don't mind the girl. I hope that it wasn't my post that makes you think that her character is being contradicted. If it was, let me know and I'll try to clarify my stance.

Yes do clarify because this opinion is not yours only. I have seen it in other H/Hr shippers in other forums. First Ginny is too stupid now she is slut! Really how irritating! EVERYTHING that was presented of Ginny was there from the beginning. I made an essay of it and I came close enough to how she was on OoP. Nobody believe that it would be that way but it was. People may have not catch up to it but everything was there. Quidditch was the only thing that was a surprise. And even that many H/G shippers knew that Ginny play Quidditch or at least imagine it. I completly missed out on it. But others didn't.

Gily Ann

Edit:

I never said Neville was in love with Hermione. I said he treats her with more respect than Ron does and because of that, I wouldn't mind if N/Hr became a couple. I don't think he's in love with her though.

Sorry I didn't clarify that. I do believe that Neville is in love or has a crush with Hermione. What I meant is the whole Neville and Hermione thing. Sorry!

[Mar Dhea]

Well, with a H/G ship -I see a little flaw. When Ginny's character came to light properly (and kinda...suddenly...y'know POOF! And here we have Ginny- In Character!) - Harry didn't take much notice. Even when he found out Ginny wasn't dreaming fondly of his fresh-pickled-toad-like eyes and blackboard-dark hair, he wasn't in any way cut up, even remotely - his first thought was - "Oh. So THAT'S why she's able to act normally!" I don't really see the romance. One could argue that he's just to wrapped up about Cho - but, I mean, he's known about Ginny's three, four year infatuation with him and I think it's safe to say he wasn't all that bothered.

In regards to Ron's egging on of the pairing, I agree with Mad-Eye-Mike on this one - Ron's just trying to get Harry paired off to pave a clear way for Hermione - Ron's getting worried, and even he, He Of The Typical Teenage Male Cluelessness, has notcied their potential, and it's not just cause Harry's a guy - d'you see him glaring at Neville? - and he's also trying to get Ginny safely off to someone he knows won't try to hurt her. Which is stupid since he can see perfectly well that Harry is not currently even slightly interested in Ginny.

Also, I see in H/G the same potentially R/Hr relationship - the crockery-bouncing-off-walls type. I mean, Harry and Ginny have had quite a few disagreements, and they're not even in close proximity to each other on a daily basis - that doesn't spell romantic bliss, exactly.

I think Ginny should have a good time. I mean, her first year was pretty rubbish, and I think she should gain confidence and what-have-you by just...being a normal teenager. (Though, GilyAnn, you mentioned something about the rarity of an unattached 15 year old. Well, mount me on a wall at a museum and mark me 'rare' - and a good lot of my friends. It's more unusual to be 'seriously' - or as seriously as that implies at 15 - involved with someone than it is to be very single...) And I don't think that means getting involved with Harry, whose life in general is far too heavy for most girls of Ginny's age. Hermione is very well able to cope with being Harry's friend during his rough times, extremely well able to cope. Is Ginny?

While I think Ginny has the potential to be a pretty good friend to Harry, I can't see a romance there. It's a hard one to work with - neither appear to like the other, they're not particularly close, their characters, of what we see, do not complement each other.

Quite simply, can Ginny be Harry's Hermione? I doubt it.

Edit:

GilyAnn, after reading your last post, I can only conclude that you're taking things out of context. I'll leave that to be elaborated upon by someone else here who has the books on hand -my answers woudn't be very good without my references (stupid brother, taking them abroad...) But, I'll leave you with this response:

Ginny doesn't know him at all.

BTW, I apologise if I sound narky. I'm not trying to. I'm just tired (it's midnight over here in Ireland). All in good feeling, eh, GilyAnn?

[evaluna]

FYI if anyone gave up on my long post on p. 1, I've bolded my responses and broken up the text, so you may want to take a stab at it now. Thanks to all who slogged through it the 1st time round.;)

Onward...:

GilyAnn:
"Hermione simply doesn't reach Harry and to top it all up she annoys him constantly. She doesn't try that much to reach him and when she does she fails."

GA, in response to your several examples, I would only suggest that Hermione is trying to balance Harry's wants [and his temper] with his needs. It's true Harry doesn't always want to listen, especially when his blood is up. Nonetheless she often has shown that she is a better judge of these than Harry himself, and moreover she stands by him regardless of the decision he takes in the end.


MarDhea: great post! Good point about the crockery;)

[GilyAnn]

Well, with a H/G ship -I see a little flaw. When Ginny's character came to light properly (and kinda...suddenly...y'know POOF! And here we have Ginny- In Character!) - Harry didn't take much notice. Even when he found out Ginny wasn't dreaming fondly of his fresh-pickled-toad-like eyes and blackboard-dark hair, he wasn't in any way cut up, even remotely - his first thought was - "Oh. So THAT'S why she's able to act normally!" I don't really see the romance. One could argue that he's just to wrapped up about Cho - but, I mean, he's known about Ginny's three, four year infatuation with him and I think it's safe to say he wasn't all that bothered.

Ginny's character didn't came from nowhere. I have a 25 page essay on her character (books 1-4)and came quite close to it. Also Harry was attracted to Cho in this book not Ginny. But even though he wasn't attracted to her. He sitll realize that she never usually talk to him before. Also if Harry ever becomes interested in Ginny those words are going to come back to haunt him for a while. If Harry is ever interested on Ginny he will have to do a little suffering himself.

Quite simply, can Ginny be Harry's Hermione? I doubt it.

Not only can but easily will. :p

GilyAnn, after reading your last post, I can only conclude that you're taking things out of context. I'll leave that to be elaborated upon by someone else here who has the books on hand -my answers woudn't be very good without my references (stupid brother, taking them abroad...) But, I'll leave you with this response:

Ginny doesn't know him at all.

Well the same was said by many when I did the essay and became quite close if not nail it fairly well. Yet for many I was reading too much into the lines, taking things out of context or simply had "wishfull thinking" on Ginny's personality. BTW what I didn't nail it was severely hinted by JKR on OoP. So I'll reiterate my opinion. She knows Harry, she knows him well and she can easily be Harry's one of Harry's most important persons.

Gily Ann

[Mad Eye Mike]

GilyAnn,

Hermione does what's in Harry's best interest even when he doesn't see it. This trend continued in OotP as Harry wanted to rush off to the DoM by himself and Hermione was the one who told him something didn't seem right. As usual, she was right and he was wrong. If Harry would have left immediately like he wanted to, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville wouldn't have been able to join him. Harry might've gotten away from the DE's in GoF because he was able to Accio the portkey, but without the help of his friends in the DoM, he surely would've been killed. If it weren't for Hermione delaying and trying to talk some sense into him, Harry would be dead right now.

Hermione knows Harry - better than he knows himself.

[GilyAnn]

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=469350#post469350))
GilyAnn,

Hermione does what's in Harry's best interest even when he doesn't see it. This trend continued in OotP as Harry wanted to rush off to the DoM by himself and Hermione was the one who told him something didn't seem right. As usual, she was right and he was wrong. If Harry would have left immediately like he wanted to, Hermione, Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville wouldn't have been able to join him. Harry might've gotten away from the DE's in GoF because he was able to Accio the portkey, but without the help of his friends in the DoM, he surely would've been killed. If it weren't for Hermione delaying and trying to talk some sense into him, Harry would be dead right now.

Hermione knows Harry - better than he knows himself.


JKR constantly says that Hermione shones towards those she is trying to help. That's exactly what Hermione does when she tries to help Harry. She may have the BEST intentions in the world. I won't dispute that. But sometimes instead of helping she only makes it worst. BTW Harry got away from the DE because of his parents, Cedric, Berta jerkins and all the others, the phoenix song, having the same want as Voldemort. Harry got the throphy because of the Accio, yes. But without the help of all those people Harry wouldn't have gotten away. I think it's highly unfair to credit Hermione entirely for Harry's runaway when so many things were involved in it. Also Hermione's plan on OoP almost backfire because her and Harry almost got killed on the forest. If it wouldn't have been for Graspw they would have certainly got it! But I don't blame neither Hermione and Harry for that. I blame Dumbledore for not being honest and failing Harry.

Gily Ann

[sone]

Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468708#post468708))
Though I have to disagree in some points with you sone. Thats the very point where I disagree. I don´t think Hermione didn´t get it that Harry wasn´t that happy about this kiss. No, I do think she did get it very well because how she react she is rather distant and brisk what say to me that she don´t like the way how Cho do corner Harry. How I did explain is it that Cho has unsolved feelings and isn´t sure if she even like Harry though she is selfish enough to do so. Maybe there is a part true what you say that Hermione think if she could be only a tiny bit more selfish in that case. But Hermione do in the same time dislike Cho for this because this girl bring pressure on Harry. She make his difficult life more difficult with her selfish doing. There is where I think is Hermiones real problem not that much Harry don´t want spent time with her. Its much more the problem that she might make Harrys live with her feelings more difficult.


I'll have to address this later as I am going back out in a bit but a very excellent point.

OK, the only reason I said she was not even aware of Harry's rather strange "unhappiness" is because she is distant and vague nor she did ask why does he seem unhappy. It is possible she may not of cared (being that she is jealous) or thought Cho was dumping her life on Harry but I do not think she at that point wanted to listen to anymore details than necessary. I agree with Sirius when he said this news took Hermione completely by surprise. I believe it did.

[Mouthn of Merlin]

Great posts everyone! I haven’t posted in a longtime, so here’s my two cents.

Harry - Needs someone that can calm him down and make think before he runs off and try to save someone. A women that has the patience to stick with him through his mood swings. Hermione has show the ability to do these things, because she’s a good friend or likes him. I don’t know but time will time. Ginny has show herself to be very rebellious and a person that likes running off on adventure without asking too many questions. A relationship between Harry and Ginny would be very dangerous. We know Harry likes to run out and go save without thinking, and Ginny is not the type that is going stop him and make Harry think before doing something reckless. That can get Harry, Ginny, or someone else killed.

Ron - needs someone that will laugh at his joke and boost his ego. Luna has show that likes Ron and his jokes. Hermione never laughs at Ron’s jokes. Some people see Ron’s and Hermione’s constant bickering as tension, but I do not see it. I would accept it as tension if they really didn’t each other very well, but they have been friends for five years. It make sometimes wonder why are they even friends.

Neville - just needs someone that can give confidence, make break out of his shell and become more outgoing. Ginny has show herself to be the type that can break Neville out of his shell.

Also, I think Ron suspects something between Harry and Hermione, and he probably thinks he doesn’t have a chance completing against Harry for Hermione. So, by trying to Harry and Ginny together, there is no one in his way of getting Hermione.

[GilyAnn]

Also, I think Ron suspects something between Harry and Hermione, and he probably thinks he doesn’t have a chance completing against Harry for Hermione. So, by trying to Harry and Ginny together, there is no one in his way of getting Hermione.

Why do people say this? Please do explain this and do show some cannon on why people would think this. Because I see no base in the books for this. Is it so impossible for people to think that because Ron has seen Harry suffer so much he thinks his little sister is good for him. I mean Ron has been hinting at H/G ever since CoS. I highly doubt that Ron was thinking then of pairing Harry with Ginny to get him out of the way.

Gily Ann

[Mad Eye Mike]

Orignally posted by GilyAnn
BTW Harry got away from the DE because of his parents, Cedric, Berta jerkins and all the others, the phoenix song, having the same want as Voldemort. Harry got the throphy because of the Accio, yes. But without the help of all those people Harry wouldn't have gotten away. I think it's highly unfair to credit Hermione entirely for Harry's runaway when so many things were involved in it.


I didn't say Harry got away from the DE's in GoF because of Hermione. I meant that just because he was alone against them in GoF and got away, doesn't mean it was going to happen again in OotP in the DoM. I didn't even mention Hermione and GoF in the same sentence.


Orignally posted by GilyAnn
Also Hermione's plan on OoP almost backfire because her and Harry almost got killed on the forest. If it wouldn't have been for Graspw they would have certainly got it! But I don't blame neither Hermione and Harry for that. I blame Dumbledore for not being honest and failing Harry.


What other choice she have? Ron was on the floor, Neville and Ginny were unable to do anything and Luna looked bored. Umbridge was going to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry and she most certainly would've gotten the information out of him. Hermione's plan was brilliant. It spared Harry unnecessary pain and had the unintentional effect of drawing 6 Thestrals to them. You only see the negatives of Hermione's actions, but the fact remains without her, who knows what Umbridge would've done to each of those kids because at that point, she was truly unstable.

[Ecthelion]

originally posted (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=469363#post469363) by Gilyann
JKR constantly says that Hermione shones towards those she is trying to help. That's exactly what Hermione does when she tries to help Harry. She may have the BEST intentions in the world. I won't dispute that. But sometimes instead of helping she only makes it worst. BTW Harry got away from the DE because of his parents, Cedric, Berta jerkins and all the others, the phoenix song, having the same want as Voldemort. Harry got the throphy because of the Accio, yes. But without the help of all those people Harry wouldn't have gotten away. I think it's highly unfair to credit Hermione entirely for Harry's runaway when so many things were involved in it. Also Hermione's plan on OoP almost backfire because her and Harry almost got killed on the forest. If it wouldn't have been for Graspw they would have certainly got it! But I don't blame neither Hermione and Harry for that. I blame Dumbledore for not being honest and failing Harry.

But the reason those "shadows" came in the first place was because Harry had the will power to force that "bead of light" towards Voldemort's wand, therefore causing them to appear. Although they certainly helped Harry get away, they were there soley because of him. Also, your right, she does make things worse, but only because she is trying to make things better. People make mistakes, Hermione included, but it is rather rare as Hermione is usually right. Oh, and I completely blame Dumbledore as well, thought I do understand his position and pity him :( , and now that I think about it, guess he makes mistakes as well!

[Hope1272]

Quote:<GilyAnn>

Hermione knows Harry sooo much. That she went ahead behind his back and reported him on the Firebolt without telling him(just because she was right it doesn't mean that is okay to have done that). Hermione knows Harry so much that she went ahead and when Harry had a fight with Ron she didn't bother to understand Harry's feelings she explained Ron's to Harry. She knows him so much that she didn't notice that Harry was doubting himself on the Cho thing. She knows him so much that she speaks ill of the only person that Harry considers like a family (Sirius). Right she knows him so much that instead of understand his feelings she went ahead and ask for Pig on the prefect thing, without sitting down and talking about it. Hermione simply doesn't reach Harry and to top it all up she annoys him constantly. She doesn't try that much to reach him and when she does she fails.


As a matter of fact, yes she does. Hermione gives Harry what he needs, not simply what he wants. She reports the Firebolt because she knows that Harry is letting his excitement about the Firebolt override his judgement considering the situation. She's seen Harry on a cursed broomstick once, and for that matter so did Ron, but he chooses to go with the moment instead of looking ahead. She explains Ron's feelings to Harry in GoF because Harry is struggling with the shock and hurt of Ron's accusations and understanding where Ron is coming from is the first step in working out the hurt. She does indeed do the same for Ron because we are told that she goes back and forth between the boys and I feel it's a safe bet she told Ron about what Harry was feeling as well. She doesn' speak ill of Sirius as much as once again, she sheds light on his character. The truth is that Sirius did fall into that trap of treating Harry like a brother instead of a godson and his words from one of their "fireside" chats in which he expresses disappointment in Harry not reacting as he thought James would proves it. Instead of letting those words cut Harry as deeply as they did, Hermione pointed out something that Harry needed to know to balance out those words and his feelings about them. When she asks Harry for Hedwig, there is a passage in which there are a few moments between Hermione getting Hedwig and leaving. Purely speculative of course, but I gather that Hermione knows from Harry's false bravado that he is indeed bothered and waits for him to turn around. When he doesn't, she leaves and I'm saying because she knows that he needs time alone to regroup. Okay, now the part of Hermione simply not reaching Harry is one that I really had trouble with. The only one who possibly reaches Harry more is Dumbledore. The one that really comes to mind is in OotP when she arrives at Grimmauld Place at Christmas. After actively ignoring the Weasley's, who have tried to get Harry to join them, he opens the door to Hermione straight away. She brings him to the Weasley's and in a matter of minutes, has the entire thing sorted out. And I would say that Hermione's increasing presence in his thoughts concerning different things as the book progresses does prove that her words are being taken in. He may not alway heed them, but I find it interesting that her thoughts and feelings are being brought into his own more and more.

On the subject of Harry and Ginny, well I'm against them and I do credit her dating history as one of the reasons, but not in the one you think. I feel like I really got to know Ginny first hand in this book. We had always heard from the twins about how formidable Ginny could be and we got a good sense of that. What struck me is the reason Ginny and Micheal Corner break up. She dumps him because he's upset that she didn't compromise her competitive streak just to suit him. She wasn't willing to play second best just because it made him feel easier about himself. This is why I don't see a H/G pairing, or one that lasts very long before H/Hr finally come about. Ginny will not play second best to the prominent place Hermione has in Harry's life. She's too smart and too self assured to be the crying and passive aggressive emotional trainwreck Cho was when Harry invariably goes to Hermione for advice or help. She's just going to walk away and not look back. Based on what I've learned in OotP, I'm ruling out Ginny for Harry, not based on her perceived weaknesses, but on her strengths.

But there are weaknesses. One of the glaring ones is that Ginny seems to be too giving when she should be less and less giving when she should be more. For example, the library talk. Considering the amount of trouble that is looming over them, with Harry's fued with Umbridge and the DA itself, Ginny gives over her immediate assistance/approval to Harry's desire to talk to Sirius. She doesn't know why Harry is willing to put everyone at risk, she simply says O.K. But in the MoM, she takes the time to quibble because Harry tells her to move on from the glass jar. Okay, Harry's been a prat in the book and yes, there are times that he needs to have someone bristle at his behavior. But this isn't one of them. Same with the discussion at Christmas. Harry is stressed at the thought of being Voldemort's weapon and we have Ginny who calls Harry stupid and seems miffed that Harry forgot she was possessed by Voldemort's spirit. I admire her pluck, just not her timing.

I'm a H/Hr because I feel that Hermione gives Harry what he needs and not what he wants just because he wants it. I don't doubt that Harry and Ginny will be friends, very good ones, but their temperments clash more times than not and in places where they are not needed. I'm really hoping for G/N simply because I think Ginny's outgoing nature would be matched well with Neville's up and coming strong but silent type.

[weasleytwinaddict]

Hi, I'm new, and, just for the record, I think Hermione would be the perfect opposites-attract match with Ron, although I'm sure sure I agree with the Harry-Ginny thing either. I don't know who's good for Harry...

[Mad Eye Mike]

Hope1272 - That was wonderful! Here's two :clappy: :clappy: for you.

[Hawk 92]

Hope1272

Not to ever be outdone by Mad Eye Mike here's :clappy: :clappy: :clappy: and a back slap :D

If your interested in a postion in the HMS Harmony MI6 00Division let me know.

Great posts today 00evaluna!!!!

Hermione knows Harry so much that she went ahead and when Harry had a fight with Ron she didn't bother to understand Harry's feelings she explained Ron's to Harry.

She understood Harry enough to know that he needed to talk and to be away from it all.

Hermione knows Harry sooo much. That she went ahead behind his back and reported him on the Firebolt without telling him(just because she was right it doesn't mean that is okay to have done that).

She cared enough about him that she risked his anger rather than his life.

She knows him so much that she didn't notice that Harry was doubting himself on the Cho thing.

If she didn't notice him doubting then why give advice?

Cheers!

[Ecthelion]

Ron scared of Harry? (don't worry, it'll tie into this thread's topic in some obscure way :) )

Ok, as we all know and have discussed to some length, Ron's character has changed, both in importance and structure. Why? Well, here's a hopefully compatible theory to that particular question.

Ron. Your typical male teenage wizard....sports, girls, and a rather shortage of insight. He, despite shockingly bright physical features such as red hair, a tall and skinny body could be just another kid....a Dean or Seamus or Justin-finch-finley....just one of those kids....except he's not. Just because of one essential complication, he hangs around Harry. Harry Potter. Hanging around him has it's bonuses but it also has its downdsides as well. Being around Harry is going to do numerous things to a normal kid like Ron.

One, it's going to push him to be more then he would have been without Harry, for as we know Harry is rather skilled and tends to bring out the best in people subconsciencesly, and Ron is no exception. As good as this may seem, it adds stress as well. What Harry does with ease, Ron may have to work harder, and I'm not just talking about academics either.

Two. This one is complicated to say the least. It has a basis, but will split into minor factions that have a huge affect on Ron as we know him now. Alright then, two. Considering Harry is one of the most famous and revered Wizards of the time, and he is the same age as Ron, Ron is always going to be a couple "levels" down from Harry, always, Prefect or not. This brings potentiallly disastrous consequences, aka fourth year fight, aka jealousy. It takes a person of strong will to conquer this horribly strong emotion and stop it from releasing it's devastating aftermath. Ron did not have it then, and does not have it now, and it is quite skeptical whether he'll get this iron resolve later on. That is not good. Although their fight was sort of resolved, the feelings that burned in Ron, as wrong as he knows they were, still reside in Ron, and are by no means gone. This is definitely something a person like Voldemort can use to his advantage.

Two and a half. (it sort of ties in :sorry: ) Ok, we know Ron is sort of a simpleton and is bothered and excited by everything your stereotypical wizard would as well. When hanging around Harry, who is everything but your stereotypical wizard, is bad. Picture that your Ron, a normal wizard of well, normal magical capabilities, and in your first year, meet the Harry Potter. HARRY POTTER! Wow, what an honor! And to sit with him! Proceeding along this ever ambigous timeline, we find Ron facing the prospect of Harry defeating a fully grown wizard and thwarting lord Voldemort once again. Man, he is amazing. Second year, Harry defeats a basilisk. Ron, by now, is truly amazed. Third year, the dementors and a patronus charm. Exceptional. And then, the turning point, the fourth year. Ever since his first year Ron has harboured thoughts of his own fame, which has steadily kindled to a burning flame in his fourth year, spurred by, no doubt, a very famous person, Harry potter, who is always by his side. Anyways, the fight has been discussed before so I won't go into detail, but anyways, they were somewhat reconciled and Ron appreciates and continues to be in silent awe of Harry, though he does not show it. And then the end of the year comes, and the story of Harry escaping reaches his ears. I don't think we realized the enormity of the task Harry accomplished by escaping that night, but inevitably, it dawned on Ron, and ends up scaring him. Why? Because of his nature, despite being attatched to the famous potter, he really wasn't meant to be surrounded and faced personally with such things like Harry has gone against, (though he is getting better) and if you picture what a normal wizard's mind comprehends, Harry's tasks far pushes these limits. So Ron, naturally, responds by being rather scared of Harry, but is pulled back by the ties of their friendship, so is stuck in the middle. Which would explain why he is so aloof and hesitant at times.

Now whatever you may think, I really do like Ron as a character, but I also wish to understand what is going on with him. As much as we like patronizing characters, we still have to find their faults, which usually end up leading to their pluses :)

Now to tie this in with the love thread.....

Seeing as Ron is considerably distancing himself from Harry from the reasons above and others, I can't help but think that at the same time, distancing himself from Hermione, therefore dashing any prospects of him and Hermione getting together. I mean, if you go away from Harry, your going away from Hermione as well, since they are inextricably linked together. Knowlingly, Hermione isn't just going to let Ron fade away, but she is going to loose respect for him by his reactions to Harry, much like the way she was acting towards Ron when she said "Voldemort". Regardless, I think respect plays a fairly important role in people getting together, seeing as it was another fault with the H/C thing. Cho had respect for Harry, while Harry had none for her. Meanwhile Harry and Hermione have an overwhelming respect for each other.....ah well, save that for another post.

Sorry it took so long to get the point across about Ron, and the relatively short part relating to this thread, but I thought it might be prudent to further understand Ron better anyways. Just some relatively unorganized thoughts :)

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

I'm too out of it to address major couples at the moment, so I'll just answer the initial question:

Will Ginny and Dean last?

No. I'm one of those who believes Ginny may not have been serious. The fact she named him doesn't prove anything as far as I'm concerned. After all, the last time a girl (Hermione) didn't bother to name her date, it turned out she really did have one. Instead, Ginny (and Rowling) deliberately picked a name that would evoke a stronger response from Ron (and the reader) than "Who?" or "Huh?".

Even if I'm wrong, I doubt the relationship will last until school starts again. Summer's a good way of cooling off youthful relationships, and Ginny's still probably not ready for anything more serious. Give her (and everyone else) another book or so.

On a related tangent, I think there's considerable merit to the idea Ron wants to see Harry and Ginny together because he doesn't really believe there's much chance of anything romantic (for lack of a stronger word) happening between them

[sone]

Actually it did not provoke a response from me at all. I was just laughing at the idea of Ron getting so upset, he knocked the chess set to the floor.

[Earendil]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Hermione knows Harry sooo much. That she went ahead behind his back and reported him on the Firebolt without telling him(just because she was right it doesn't mean that is okay to have done that). Hermione knows Harry so much that she went ahead and when Harry had a fight with Ron she didn't bother to understand Harry's feelings she explained Ron's to Harry. She knows him so much that she didn't notice that Harry was doubting himself on the Cho thing. She knows him so much that she speaks ill of the only person that Harry considers like a family (Sirius). Right she knows him so much that instead of understand his feelings she went ahead and ask for Pig on the prefect thing, without sitting down and talking about it. Hermione simply doesn't reach Harry and to top it all up she annoys him constantly. She doesn't try that much to reach him and when she does she fails.

You seem to be focusing on the arguable negative points for Hermione and disregarding all the good that she has done for Harry. My shipmates have already addressed this, but I believe that this is an unfair assessment. We have plenty of canonical evidence to show that it is indeed Hermione who knows Harry better than anyone else. She is able to immediately sense when something is wrong with him, and even if she addresses this problem in what may or may not be the most tactful way, it shows that she does have at least some understanding of who he is and how he feels. As for the examples you listed, there are two sides to every story. Hermione turned in the Firebolt and made Harry angry--so what? He forgave her almost immediately after it was returned and the issue was never rekindled. Are we certain that she "never bothered to understand Harry's feelings" when he and Ron had a fight? No, for all we know, Hermione explained to Ron what Harry was going through in the exact same way that she explained to Harry what Ron was going through. I'm not saying that she did; it's just that we don't know that she didn't--and that would be because what we mostly saw happening was Hermione spending the majority of her spare time with Harry. If she disagrees with Sirius's behavior with Harry, she is not going to shut up and dumbly tell Harry what she knows he wants to hear; she tells him not to blindly trust Sirius's judgment because she thinks he is reckless--and with good reason. She didn't vocally express that she had noticed that Harry was doubting himself on Cho, but did anyone else do so? And as for the prefect thing, she went ahead and asked for Hedwig to send a letter instead of sitting and wheedling a heart-to-heart out of a boy who clearly would rather talk about anything else at the moment. So if Hermione does persist into Harry's feelings and try to force him to open up, she is expressing insensitivity; but if she doesn't (even when it's fairly clear that she knows very well that something is the matter with him) she is clueless about his feelings?

Let's also keep in mind that Ginny hasn't been a model friend in dealing with Harry either. Instead of tiptoeing around his feelings the way the others did at Christmas, she went right out and told him he was being stupid and drew attention to her own problem rather than try to understand his first. She set up the diversion with the twins so that Harry could talk to Sirius in Umbridge's fire, which wasn't the smartest course of action. She even snapped at him in the DoM, when he was at his most anxious and stressed-out, and clearly didn't need to have people being petty. I could easily go on, but I don't want to defame a character by only mentioning the negative points and failing to mention the numerous positive points that enhance her relationship, even though I disagree with H/G.

If Harry isn't good enough for Ginny then he isn't good enough for any girl not even Hermione. We have then a Hero alone. Any gilfriend of Harry is on danger. Ginny just happend to be one that is a target anyway because she knows too much. She shared too much with the old Riddle and I can bet anything that once Malfoy spill the beans on Ginny and the Weasley. Ginny is on Voldemort high list.

My point is still that Harry isn't good for Ginny, not that he isn't good enough. I believe that they're incompatible, and this has little to do with the Voldemort-targeting-Harry's-girlfriend issue, which is separate. I'm saying that Ron was expressing a lack of judgment in not trying to discourage Ginny from wanting to get involved with Harry, because he clearly hasn't considered the fact that this is putting his sister in even more danger than she already is in. This isn't a point against H/G; this is a point against Ron's judgment.

Ginny has been developed as Hermione. Hermione is still stuck in some areas.

I concede that Hermione hasn't been developed in all areas, but I still fail to see how a character who is clearly in the background is as developed as one of the main three. The more a character is involved with the central plot, the more thorough their development will be, and it can hardly be said that Ginny is as frequently and deeply involved in Harry's affairs as Hermione is. She has been developed, certainly, but the truth is still that there is a much stronger foundation for Hermione's fundamental characteristics than Ginny's, simply because Hermione has had more development.

Harry's LI does not need to be constantly in your face kind of thing. Which makes Ginny one of the perfect candidates among other girls. That including Luna, Lavender and Pavarti.

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. The common H/Hr theory is that love (romantic or not) will play a big role in the fight against Voldemort, so it follows logic that Harry's girl will need to be sufficiently important and crucial to the plot. I would hate it if JKR tossed in some random love interest out of left field, like Lavender, because her sole purpose would be as Harry's girl and nothing more. With girls like Hermione and, yes, Ginny, Harry's LI will also be more crucial to the central plot because she has other purposes (as a good friend). We still need more development for H/G to be believable, IMHO.

Yes do clarify because this opinion is not yours only. I have seen it in other H/Hr shippers in other forums. First Ginny is too stupid now she is slut! Really how irritating!

Well, I can only speak for myself on this, but I believe that Ginny's character wasn't sufficiently developed for four entire books, and then BAM--we have this closet-Quidditch-playing, man-eating, saucy young lady. GilyAnn, you may have seen this coming a mile away, but my interpretation of Ginny prior to OotP was nothing like this. :p On my post on the first page, I analyzed Ginny's reasons for being developed in this way, so I'm perfectly clear on where this is coming from. I don't think she's fast or too much woman for Harry, but I still believe that they are incompatible. She will give him only what he wants, and not what he needs. In some ways, this new side of Ginny is even too similar to Harry's for their characters to be able to compliment one another. As for my perception of Ginny's character prior to OotP--there was simply not enough in canon for me to make an accurate judgment. I therefore was against H/G (and still am, but for different reasons) because I felt that we didn't know nearly enough about her for her to be an adequate love interest. I personally never thought that she was stupid or too shy or anything, although I'm sure that H/Hr shippers elsewhere have used this in their arguments before. She didn't have enough development for me to be comfortable with H/G, and now that she has been developed a little more, I'm even further convinced that she and Harry aren't compatible.

Great posts, everyone, especially Mar Dhea, Mike, Mouthn of Merlin, Hope, Ecthelion and evaluna!

:welcome: to the thread, weasleytwinaddict, hope you stick around!

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

But would Ron have knocked the chess pieces over at the mention of some unknown Hufflepuff? At the very least, he'd have needed a moment to figure out what the guy looked like.

As long as I'm on the subject of Ginny, I might as well take the opportunity to disagree with Hopel272's analysis of her breakup with Michael. To Viktor's credit, he took Harry's victories in a sportsmanlike fashion. Michael's essential insistence that Ginny should have thrown the game rather than let Ravenclaw lose reflects on his childishness, not her competitiveness

[sone]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=469565#post469565))
But would Ron have knocked the chess pieces over at the mention of some unknown Hufflepuff?


Yes, considering how he gagged his butterbeer over hearing about his sister going out with Michael Corner and he didn't even know what he looked like. That is why Ginny had not told him about him in the first place. The reaction would be the same.

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468879#post468879))
So I quote now haychengs signature. Its probably my favouriet part from the bible. Yeah I did read the new testament. So I knew what I say now.
I personal don´t know a human beeing who love his enemy. I do think that this one from the bible is something byond meaning of love. I need to make it clear its more an example like an ideal. How it should be. How people should do it. If we all did love the way how Haychengs signature say I´m sure there wouldn´t exist an enemy. Thats the very point of what Jesus did say.

Now what has that to do with HP? Its simple its about love and how I see it this serie is about love. Not any love, its about all kind of love.
You might see it in my signature too that I think the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and beloved in return. This could we take as motto for this HP serie.
Harrys task is to learn to love und to beloved and for that he need someone who do him love and I mean this special way of love. A love which he didn´t need to share. Something what is once in a lifetime. His mother did love Harry in a special way, in a way where he could or would feel beloved. Thats the case. The Weasleys can petrend they love him like a 8th brother or his friends can pretend he love him but he won´t feel it. He won´t feel this secure Love which kids get from the parents. Normally is this love that strong that kids could be murderer and still feel the love of they mother. That is what I mean and that is what Harry not has.
There lies probably that where I think comes true love in play. I know some of you might laugh or think I´m insane but this exist. This kind of love exist and there are people out there who do feel it this love. A love which is even that strong like mother love if not stronger because it would be love by choice.
Only if Harry falls in love he might solve his own problem to feel be alone or unloved.


This is why is many cultures, God is worshipped as the Divine Mother.
Love isn't really an emotion. It's not a feeling God has for us. Love is what God is. And as a Hindu master said, "God is and God is all there is." No one can love their enemy while they are seperate from him. It's like the opening lines of "I am the Walrus."

[Hawk 92]

But would Ron have knocked the chess pieces over at the mention of some unknown Hufflepuff? At the very least, he'd have needed a moment to figure out what the guy looked like.

If the whole point is to create a red herring why is Ron's reaction necessary to this at all?

Michael's essential insistence that Ginny should have thrown the game rather than let Ravenclaw lose reflects on his childishness, not her competitiveness

Where did it say that Michael thought that Ginny should have thrown the game?

Cheers!

[GilyAnn]

As a matter of fact, yes she does. Hermione gives Harry what he needs, not simply what he wants.

Sometimes what you need is not what you want. You usually will end up going with what you want.

She reports the Firebolt because she knows that Harry is letting his excitement about the Firebolt override his judgement considering the situation. She's seen Harry on a cursed broomstick once, and for that matter so did Ron, but he chooses to go with the moment instead of looking ahead.

A little chat or a nice fight would have been nice to let people know what you are about to do. She had one lots of fights with them one more wouldn't hurt. What Hermione did is one of the things that Harry hates the most. IMHO this was one of the big kills off of a relationship.

She explains Ron's feelings to Harry in GoF because Harry is struggling with the shock and hurt of Ron's accusations and understanding where Ron is coming from is the first step in working out the hurt. She does indeed do the same for Ron because we are told that she goes back and forth between the boys and I feel it's a safe bet she told Ron about what Harry was feeling as well. She doesn' speak ill of Sirius as much as once again, she sheds light on his character.

Yes Harry is having the problems. Therefore WHO CARES ABOUT RON! What about Harry! What does he feel. How is he holding and dealing about the whole thing. A future love interest for Harry will focus on his feelings not in the feelings of others. Twice Hermione has done that.



She doesn' speak ill of Sirius as much as once again, she sheds light on his character. The truth is that Sirius did fall into that trap of treating Harry like a brother instead of a godson and his words from one of their "fireside" chats in which he expresses disappointment in Harry not reacting as he thought James would proves it. Instead of letting those words cut Harry as deeply as they did, Hermione pointed out something that Harry needed to know to balance out those words and his feelings about them.

She does speak bad of Sirius and it bothers Harry. Sirius treated Harry like a person not an idiot. Not a little boy that needed protection. Harry needs to learn a few lessons and babying him he isn't going to learn. What Sirius did was the right thing to do and if Dumbledore, Molly, Lupin and all the other airheads would have taken his advice none of what happend would have happend. Protecting someone is sometimes the best way to hurt them. Dumbledore on his 150 years learned that now.

When she asks Harry for Hedwig, there is a passage in which there are a few moments between Hermione getting Hedwig and leaving. Purely speculative of course, but I gather that Hermione knows from Harry's false bravado that he is indeed bothered and waits for him to turn around. When he doesn't, she leaves and I'm saying because she knows that he needs time alone to regroup.

And you think that if she knows she would sit down and talk to him since the initial embarassment was caused on the prefect thing. Yet again she leaves and if it wouldn't have been for Tonks, Ginny and GB Sirius; Harry would have been wallowing in emotion.

The only one who possibly reaches Harry more is Dumbledore. The one that really comes to mind is in OotP when she arrives at Grimmauld Place at Christmas. After actively ignoring the Weasley's, who have tried to get Harry to join them, he opens the door to Hermione straight away. She brings him to the Weasley's and in a matter of minutes, has the entire thing sorted out. And I would say that Hermione's increasing presence in his thoughts concerning different things as the book progresses does prove that her words are being taken in. He may not alway heed them, but I find it interesting that her thoughts and feelings are being brought into his own more and more.

It is so clear to me that Hermione was not the only who help on Harry. Yet again H/Hr always want to believe that Hermione is the only one who helps with Harry. Hermione came in BTW doing again one of the things that Harry hates the most. Setting him up. For his benefit yes, but just because it's for his own benefit it doesn't meant that Harry will apreciated it. Hermione came into the house because of the Weasley's problems. I highly doubt that Hermione cancel her trip only for Harry or even for Ron. She cancel it for the family who has treated her like one of her own. All of them help Hermione again was not the only one there. Maybe I should give Ginny some credit since Harry remember that he wasn't the only one that has ever been possesed by Voldemort. You think she would have helped!

On the subject of Harry and Ginny, well I'm against them and I do credit her dating history as one of the reasons, but not in the one you think. I feel like I really got to know Ginny first hand in this book. We had always heard from the twins about how formidable Ginny could be and we got a good sense of that. What struck me is the reason Ginny and Micheal Corner break up. She dumps him because he's upset that she didn't compromise her competitive streak just to suit him. She wasn't willing to play second best just because it made him feel easier about himself. This is why I don't see a H/G pairing, or one that lasts very long before H/Hr finally come about. Ginny will not play second best to the prominent place Hermione has in Harry's life. She's too smart and too self assured to be the crying and passive aggressive emotional trainwreck Cho was when Harry invariably goes to Hermione for advice or help. She's just going to walk away and not look back. Based on what I've learned in OotP, I'm ruling out Ginny for Harry, not based on her perceived weaknesses, but on her strengths.

Ginny dumped Michael because he got sulky on winning. But was she realy into him from the beggining? Let's see: we never hear anybody say that Ginny wrote to someone all summer. When in the train she never ditched H/R/Hr to go look for him. When she got to Howgarts we don't get to see her with him. We knew about his existance from Hermione. She got to the meeting without him and appart. No hand holding or anything. She cursed him without any pity. We never saw them kiss. When he came to the table she called him a fool and on Valentines day not only did she had practice but he didn't send her anything but neither did she. So when did this relationship was happening? Ginny was always hanging out with either Hermione or Luna. Unless Ginny has a time turner I don't see where the heck she got time to be with this guy. But she certainly took time for the DA meetings, help H/R/Hr in the DoM and everything else. She certainly took time on Xmas to worry over Harry even though she left without saying to goodbye to her boyfriend. She also took time to replace Harry on the Quidditch team giving him the opportunity to go back next year, because she rather play chaser. Makes me wonder why didn't she apply for the possition in the first place since it was vacant! Ginny took time for a lot of things but one of them was certainly not Michael Corner. Ginny's whole problem is with herself. My best shot is she must be angry at herself for loving(because I do believe that she does) someone who she believes will never pay attention to her.

As for Ginny playing second best that's a theory on the H/Hr shippers that it would hold up in my views if Harry wasn't annoyed with Hermione and kept lying to her just not to deal with her. Harry has some real issues with Hermione. I don't deny that Harry and Hermione are friends or that H/Hr can happend. But the fact is that: one Hermione and Ginny are best friends. two once Ginny becomes close to Harry he will stop relying so much on his best friends and go to his girlfriend. Because I not only believe that Ginny has the ability (which I said she did on the last threads and everyone laughed at me, BTW) but the power to make Harry confide in her. She has been only one week close to him but for someone that Harry was beginning to get close to he talk to her about something that many said it was impossible to do so. Ginny's aproach is differrent but one that works fairly well not only with Harry but with a lot of people. I though that people would have notice that by now.


One of the glaring ones is that Ginny seems to be too giving when she should be less and less giving when she should be more. For example, the library talk. Considering the amount of trouble that is looming over them, with Harry's fued with Umbridge and the DA itself, Ginny gives over her immediate assistance/approval to Harry's desire to talk to Sirius. She doesn't know why Harry is willing to put everyone at risk, she simply says O.K.

Yes this was risky but Ginny knows well when something is safe and when something isn't. She learned that from the Twins. The twins got in trouble but they knew when to draw the line. And this conversations I consider it very important. Reaching the point were you start thinking that your father force your mother to marry him must be really mind distourbing.

But in the MoM, she takes the time to quibble because Harry tells her to move on from the glass jar. Okay, Harry's been a prat in the book and yes, there are times that he needs to have someone bristle at his behavior. But this isn't one of them.

What seems to be the problem here? There was a clue there. . .

Same with the discussion at Christmas. Harry is stressed at the thought of being Voldemort's weapon and we have Ginny who calls Harry stupid and seems miffed that Harry forgot she was possessed by Voldemort's spirit. I admire her pluck, just not her timing.

Yet that brought him to his senses and started getting better. Ginny's way of dealing is excellent for Harry. Instead of treating him like a child. Ginny treats him like an equal which raises Harry's level of maturity and provokes him to behave better and act like a grown up. On the other hand Hermione usually treats Harry like a child like he doesn't know what he is doing which usually causes resentment and provokes him to be more revelious. Ginny way of dealing of Harry makes him stop dueling on self pity and focus on the problem. I simply loves the way that Ginny handles Harry!

Seeing as Ron is considerably distancing himself from Harry from the reasons above and others, I can't help but think that at the same time, distancing himself from Hermione, therefore dashing any prospects of him and Hermione getting together. I mean, if you go away from Harry, your going away from Hermione as well, since they are inextricably linked together. Knowlingly, Hermione isn't just going to let Ron fade away, but she is going to loose respect for him by his reactions to Harry, much like the way she was acting towards Ron when she said "Voldemort". Regardless, I think respect plays a fairly important role in people getting together, seeing as it was another fault with the H/C thing. Cho had respect for Harry, while Harry had none for her. Meanwhile Harry and Hermione have an overwhelming respect for each other.....ah well, save that for another post.

Ecletion if Ron would really be that scared of Harry he wouldn't spend time with Harry, defend Harry, make homework with Harry, hang out with Harry, confide to Harry of his quidditch desire. I think H/R friendship went to a level of brothers on this book and I certainly love it. Ron and Hermione were constantly toguether in this book, whethere doing homework, sitting in the best chairs in front of the fire, doing prefect duties, talking about Harry, partnering on the DA together among other things. I mean they were practicly attached toguether almost every time that Harry found Hermione she was with Ron.

Harry showed so much respect for hermione in this book that she was constantly on the verge of tears, backing away from him, frighten or simply being careful when she talk to Harry. And when he wasn't screaming at her he was avoiding her, wanting to shake her or lying. I actually saw little of the respect that you all are talking about.

Gily Ann

[Hope1272]

Rowena,

He could have very well assumed that she would throw the match, but that's what I meant by her not taking the second best route.
I don't see it as Ginny being competitive, but not letting Michael's wounded ego at losing to eclipse what was obviously a very thrilling win for her(taking the snitch right from under Cho to win). If Micheal is sulky about losing, it might stand to reason that he would want Ginny to comfort him and that could mean putting what she did in the background in order to stroke his ego. She knows that she shouldn't have to feel guilty for playing her best and the git should realize that she was in the game as well and that deserves some kind of recognition. Which is why I don't believe that as Harry's girlfriend, she would put up with Harry going to Hermione as he does now. She's not going to sulk and pout while Hermione has Harry's attention, she's just going to move on like she did with Micheal.



Hawk, I accept.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Sometimes what you need is not what you want. You usually will end up going with what you want.


And if what you want is stupid or dangerous, it's pays to have someone around who will tell you what you need.

[GilyAnn]

You seem to be focusing on the arguable negative points for Hermione and disregarding all the good that she has done for Harry. My shipmates have already addressed this, but I believe that this is an unfair assessment. We have plenty of canonical evidence to show that it is indeed Hermione who knows Harry better than anyone else.

To your opinion I know. I highly disagree and have presented my arguments against that. It is clear that while Hermione is one of Harry’s best friends she still has a long way to go. Hermione has a lot of issues and I for once I'm worried that I don't see JKR working towards resolving them.

Hermione turned in the Firebolt and made Harry angry--so what? He forgave her almost immediately after it was returned and the issue was never rekindled.

Did he? He said I supposed. He never saw in her being sorry about it. One of the differences of the Harry/ Ron fight and the H/Hr fight is that Harry sees in Ron his apologies he sees how sorry he is. He sees that he was worried. He never saw that in Hermione. He said that he knew her intentions were good. But he doesn’t see her being sorry for doing that.


No, for all we know, Hermione explained to Ron what Harry was going through in the exact same way that she explained to Harry what Ron was going through. I'm not saying that she did; it's just that we don't know that she didn't--and that would be because what we mostly saw happening was Hermione spending the majority of her spare time with Harry.

Even though I like Ron. Like I said. WHO CARES ABOUT RON! And what could have Hermione possibly be explaining to Ron since all she knows is that Harry didn’t put his name on the GoF. I felt sorry she was caught up in the middle and under the circunstances she did the best she could. But this was a problem that needed them to solve it and it wasn't her fault let the two handle it on their own. She was right they were being stupid.

If she disagrees with Sirius's behavior with Harry, she is not going to shut up and dumbly tell Harry what she knows he wants to hear; she tells him not to blindly trust Sirius's judgment because she thinks he is reckless--and with good reason. She didn't vocally express that she had noticed that Harry was doubting himself on Cho, but did anyone else do so?

Ron did. Sometimes a little diplomacy wouldn't kill her. I mean Harry wasn't in danger when they were going back to Howgarts and she harshly critized him. It honestly wouldn't have harmed her.

Let's also keep in mind that Ginny hasn't been a model friend in dealing with Harry either. Instead of tiptoeing around his feelings the way the others did at Christmas, she went right out and told him he was being stupid and drew attention to her own problem rather than try to understand his first. She set up the diversion with the twins so that Harry could talk to Sirius in Umbridge's fire, which wasn't the smartest course of action. She even snapped at him in the DoM, when he was at his most anxious and stressed-out, and clearly didn't need to have people being petty. I could easily go on, but I don't want to defame a character by only mentioning the negative points and failing to mention the numerous positive points that enhance her relationship, even though I disagree with H/G.

I already addressed that on the other post above. Forgive me. My fingers kind of bother me.


I believe that they're incompatible, and this has little to do with the Voldemort-targeting-Harry's-girlfriend issue, which is separate. I'm saying that Ron was expressing a lack of judgment in not trying to discourage Ginny from wanting to get involved with Harry, because he clearly hasn't considered the fact that this is putting his sister in even more danger than she already is in. This isn't a point against H/G; this is a point against Ron's judgment.

You’ll need to explain this again because you are contradicting yourself here. It doesn’t have anything to do with Voldemort but Ginny is in Danger? :??:

I still fail to see how a character who is clearly in the background is as developed as one of the main three. The more a character is involved with the central plot, the more thorough their development will be, and it can hardly be said that Ginny is as frequently and deeply involved in Harry's affairs as Hermione is. She has been developed, certainly, but the truth is still that there is a much stronger foundation for Hermione's fundamental characteristics than Ginny's, simply because Hermione has had more development.

Yes it can be, you think I invented 25 pages of the essay? (yet again I was told I was reading too much into the lines, although I was right when OoP came in) She was developed. I’m starting to think that sometimes people think that a character needs to be constantly in your face kind of thing to be developed. This is a mystery novel! Doesn’t anybody like to solve puzzles.

The common H/Hr theory is that love (romantic or not) will play a big role in the fight against Voldemort, so it follows logic that Harry's girl will need to be sufficiently important and crucial to the plot. I would hate it if JKR tossed in some random love interest out of left field, like Lavender, because her sole purpose would be as Harry's girl and nothing more. With girls like Hermione and, yes, Ginny, Harry's LI will also be more crucial to the central plot because she has other purposes (as a good friend). We still need more development for H/G to be believable, IMHO.

Trust me I want it to be an important character (And I do believe it's Ginny) but sadly it doesn’t have to be that way. I want to be objective on this and it doesn't have to be. Do I like it? No, but that's another story.

Well, I can only speak for myself on this, but I believe that Ginny's character wasn't sufficiently developed for four entire books, and then BAM--we have this closet-Quidditch-playing, man-eating, saucy young lady.

But everything was there. JKR didn’t pull out anything that we didn’t have enough clues to solve it. There was even a hint about Quidditch. I missed out on it but it was there.

As for my perception of Ginny's character prior to OotP--there was simply not enough in canon for me to make an accurate judgment. I therefore was against H/G (and still am, but for different reasons) because I felt that we didn't know nearly enough about her for her to be an adequate love interest. I personally never thought that she was stupid or too shy or anything, although I'm sure that H/Hr shippers elsewhere have used this in their arguments before. She didn't have enough development for me to be comfortable with H/G, and now that she has been developed a little more, I'm even further convinced that she and Harry aren't compatible.

And after OoP I’m even more convince that Ginny and Harry are perfect for each other. I don’t know why people think that Jkr pulled this out of a hat because she did write her way to it. Everything that it was revealed about Ginny was in books 1-4.

Gily Ann

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by sone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=469574#post469574))
Yes, considering how he gagged his butterbeer over hearing about his sister going out with Michael Corner and he didn't even know what he looked like. That is why Ginny had not told him about him in the first place. The reaction would be the same.


That's exactly what I mean when I say that not giving a name wouldn't have proved anything. If Ginny cared about Dean, wouldn't she have wanted to minimize the reaction in the same way?

Originally posted by Hope1272
Which is why I don't believe that as Harry's girlfriend, she would put up with Harry going to Hermione as he does now. She's not going to sulk and pout while Hermione has Harry's attention, she's just going to move on like she did with Micheal.

I should just stop telling myself I'm not going to get drawn into this. It never works.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is the assumption that Harry will automatically turn to Hermione. As far as I can see, Harry doesn't turn to anyone if he can help it (maybe Sirius, but that obviously doesn't work anymore). If anything, Hermione's always the one checking up on him (and then willing to take his word that everything's okay, before someone interprets that as crush evidence :p). If she thought Ginny had the situation under control, maybe she'd feel more comfortable giving Harry his space. Of course, maybe she'd get jealous, but either way, I don't think the problem would be on Harry's end.

[haycheng]

Hi, Gile Ann
I can not support you on what I consider extreme view on H/Hr and H/G, but I will take a stand and defend the ship of H/G somewhat(deal to the fact extreme low number of sailors, the H/G definely one of the easiest target, isnt it? Those H/Hr really take advantage of us).

IMHO, Ginny is not a well-define character yet. She has showed certain potential that is favorable in a H/G relationship. She accept most of the friends of Harry. She is good friend of Hermione, that means she may not be jealous of Hermione as much. I assume she is smart by what the twice say. She enjoys Quidditch. She is more reckless than Hermione. It is a characteristic Harry may draw to. Many H/Hr assume that Harry would not grow up himself and would require Hermione to be his logic. I see that it could take a different turn after the OFTP. It could very possible that he starts to see the logic himself. In a lot of cases, Harry see the problems just as Hermione has. He simply choose not to accept them. He knows very well that Sirus is unstable and act reckless in OFTP. However, he chooses to follow his heart. Will he be change enough to be careful or will he need Hermione as much as he did(in surviving)? One must also agree there are time that Harry does not want to meet or talk with Hermione due to her nature.

In the end, I agree the H/Hr define has more evident to favor their relationship. However, let not forget that Ginny has just as much chance. As a character that is underdeveloped, JKR can do anything she want with Ginny and makes her fit H/G perfect. It is the fexibility Ginny character that make me believe H/G just as possible as H/Hr.

[Erise]

Before OotP and reading cosforums, the idea of H/G actually never really occured to me, but now I admit the possibility of H/G, although I think that it has a slightly smaller chance than H/Hr and that I prefer the idea of H/Hr.

Firstly, Ginny's characterisation is actually quite a difficult piece of delicacy for me to swallow. It is pleasant, but far too sudden. Here was Ginny who had been roughly lurking in the background, then all of a suden we have Ginny who's like Fred and George, Quidditch-playing Ginny, etc... It almost seems like JKR has purposely fleshed out Ginny to rival Hermione as the strong female character. But what strikes me is that despite Ginny's fleshing out, we still see Hermione as the one who's anchoring Harry, preventing him to a certain extent from getting into trouble. And right at the end we have Hermione with Harry (along with Neville) at the DoM, not Ginny.

In my opinion, Ginny's characterisation is actually a red herring of its own - to (mis)lead some readers into thinking "Wow, Ginny's cool - now she can match up to Harry, then Ron can get with Hermione, and they'll be one big happy family!" My point being, why let show another strong female character to the readers, only to not use her later? It makes little sense to me.

However, I also agree with haycheng - Ginny has not been fully characterised, so she can easily be moulded into a character perfect for H/G - but some of the characteristics she already exhibits have also proven otherwise. Her willingness to give Harry what he wants even if it is not the safest or best thing for him is one of the reasons why I do not want to see H/G.

All in all, Ginny's a cool character, but I just don't see her getting with Harry.

[Daveydee]

Ecthelion,

Nice character analysis of Ron. I think you've slightly overplayed the 'shock and awe' card in respect of how Ron views Harry, though I would agree that he has somewhat been in Harry's shadow for many years. I do see that he has begun to emerge from this, however, to a significant degree in OotP, and has done so with great humility, which would lead me to question the assertion that he was ever resentful of Harry's celebrity.

However, I do have problems with your conclusion:


Seeing as Ron is considerably distancing himself from Harry from the reasons above and others, I can't help but think that at the same time, distancing himself from Hermione, therefore dashing any prospects of him and Hermione getting together. I mean, if you go away from Harry, your going away from Hermione as well, since they are inextricably linked together. Knowlingly, Hermione isn't just going to let Ron fade away, but she is going to loose respect for him by his reactions to Harry, much like the way she was acting towards Ron when she said "Voldemort". Regardless, I think respect plays a fairly important role in people getting together, seeing as it was another fault with the H/C thing. Cho had respect for Harry, while Harry had none for her. Meanwhile Harry and Hermione have an overwhelming respect for each other.....

What bothers me in particular is your notion that Harry and Hermione come as a package, and that in some way, whatever Ron does that impacts on Harry will neccessarily have a similar impact on Hermione. This notion creates the impression that Ron is merely a third person tacked on to a duo (Harry/Hermione) in a somewhat semi-detatched way, rather than, as is in fact the case, as integral a part of the trio as Hermione herself.

One can quite easily make a similarly comprehensive assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of Hermione's character over the years and take the view that Harry and Ron come as a package, and that Hermione is the 'third person'.

IMO neither view is correct. Both Ron and Hermione add in equal measure to the trio. In fact, one could make a more convincing case for Ron and Hermione as a duo (ignoring any perceived romantic intentions), and take the view of Harry as the semi-detatched member of the trio.

[Hope1272]

Quote<GilyAnn>

Sometimes what you need is not what you want. You usually will end up going with what you want.

I think MEM put it as well as I could, so I won't elaborate.

quote:
A little chat or a nice fight would have been nice to let people know what you are about to do. She had one lots of fights with them one more wouldn't hurt. What Hermione did is one of the things that Harry hates the most. IMHO this was one of the big kills off of a relationship.

Hermione tried to talk to Harry about it and once again we're at the need vs. want thing. Harry wanted to use the broom, was caught up in the surrounding excitement and didn't want to hear about the possibility of not being able to use it. The need wasn't in having the broom for the game, but to keep him safe and Hermione never lost sight of that. Actually it's a bonus in a relationship, knowing that your mate cares enough to look out for you.

quote:
Yes Harry is having the problems. Therefore WHO CARES ABOUT RON! What about Harry! What does he feel. How is he holding and dealing about the whole thing. A future love interest for Harry will focus on his feelings not in the feelings of others. Twice Hermione has done that.

Actually, Harry cares about Ron. He is in a state of shock, hurt and confusion. He has no idea why Ron would think such a thing about him. Hermione tells him about Ron's feelings because she knows that Harry is confused, both boys are stubborn and full of pride, and understanding how the other feels is the first step to a reconciliation. She's right because once Ron sees first hand the type of danger Harry is involved in, he apologizes at once and Harry holds no hard feelings because they understand each other. And Hermione's efforts play a large part in that.


quote:
She does speak bad of Sirius and it bothers Harry. Sirius treated Harry like a person not an idiot. Not a little boy that needed protection. Harry needs to learn a few lessons and babying him he isn't going to learn. What Sirius did was the right thing to do and if Dumbledore, Molly, Lupin and all the other airheads would have taken his advice none of what happend would have happend. Protecting someone is sometimes the best way to hurt them. Dumbledore on his 150 years learned that now.

Hermione doesn't speak bad of Sirius and in fact, makes excuses for Sirius when she points out that his words might be due to him possibly trying to live vicariously through them because of his confinement. Sirius wasn't right, he was encouraging Harry to take risks that he himself was not fully aware of (Umbridge nearly catching him) based what he and James would have done and not on the situation at hand. Those other "airheads" got that and have managed to help keep him alive without Sirius's guidance.

quote:
And you think that if she knows she would sit down and talk to him since the initial embarassment was caused on the prefect thing. Yet again she leaves and if it wouldn't have been for Tonks, Ginny and GB Sirius; Harry would have been wallowing in emotion.

Harry couldn't even look her in the eye and this is after he unleashes hell on them for being kept in the dark. Actually, Harry didn't wallow. He took on his emotions and worked through it. He was able to congratulate Ron sincerely, went to the party and raised his glass like everyone else because he was truly happy. Sirius's words did cheer him up when he said that James wasn't a prefect either. But that was after he made his peace.

quote:
It is so clear to me that Hermione was not the only who help on Harry. Yet again H/Hr always want to believe that Hermione is the only one who helps with Harry. Hermione came in BTW doing again one of the things that Harry hates the most. Setting him up. For his benefit yes, but just because it's for his own benefit it doesn't meant that Harry will apreciated it. Hermione came into the house because of the Weasley's problems. I highly doubt that Hermione cancel her trip only for Harry or even for Ron. She cancel it for the family who has treated her like one of her own. All of them help Hermione again was not the only one there. Maybe I should give Ginny some credit since Harry remember that he wasn't the only one that has ever been possesed by Voldemort. You think she would have helped!

Hermione is the one who got them together in the same room to talk. By the time she got him in the room, Harry was ready. He would have left otherwise. But whatever her reason, seeing Harry was obviously a priority given she still had on her coat, had pink cheeks, and had snow in her hair. She obviously didn't stop to chit chat with the rest of the Weasley clan despite Mr. Weasley being in the hospital and goes up to the room straight away. I would say that Ginny's recount and Hermione's point about not being able to apparate held equal weight in easing Harry's mind. But Hermione is the one who was able to get him out of his self imposed exile in order to even talk to them.


quote:
Ginny dumped Michael because he got sulky on winning. But was she realy into him from the beggining? Let's see: we never hear anybody say that Ginny wrote to someone all summer. When in the train she never ditched H/R/Hr to go look for him. When she got to Howgarts we don't get to see her with him. We knew about his existance from Hermione. She got to the meeting without him and appart. No hand holding or anything. She cursed him without any pity. We never saw them kiss. When he came to the table she called him a fool and on Valentines day not only did she had practice but he didn't send her anything but neither did she. So when did this relationship was happening? Ginny was always hanging out with either Hermione or Luna. Unless Ginny has a time turner I don't see where the heck she got time to be with this guy. But she certainly took time for the DA meetings, help H/R/Hr in the DoM and everything else. She certainly took time on Xmas to worry over Harry even though she left without saying to goodbye to her boyfriend. She also took time to replace Harry on the Quidditch team giving him the opportunity to go back next year, because she rather play chaser. Makes me wonder why didn't she apply for the possition in the first place since it was vacant! Ginny took time for a lot of things but one of them was certainly not Michael Corner. Ginny's whole problem is with herself. My best shot is she must be angry at herself for loving(because I do believe that she does) someone who she believes will never pay attention to her.

As for Ginny playing second best that's a theory on the H/Hr shippers that it would hold up in my views if Harry wasn't annoyed with Hermione and kept lying to her just not to deal with her. Harry has some real issues with Hermione. I don't deny that Harry and Hermione are friends or that H/Hr can happend. But the fact is that: one Hermione and Ginny are best friends. two once Ginny becomes close to Harry he will stop relying so much on his best friends and go to his girlfriend. Because I not only believe that Ginny has the ability (which I said she did on the last threads and everyone laughed at me, BTW) but the power to make Harry confide in her. She has been only one week close to him but for someone that Harry was beginning to get close to he talk to her about something that many said it was impossible to do so. Ginny's aproach is differrent but one that works fairly well not only with Harry but with a lot of people. I though that people would have notice that by now.

We didn't see much of Ginny and Michael's relationship because, quite frankly, she doesn't figure much into Harry's mind and the narrative is from his point of view. My point for that is that it took Hermione to get Harry to even think about the fact that Ginny was talking to him. At this point, Ginny and her relationships aren't paramount to the story. For all we know, she might have tried out for Seeker because of her admiration of Harry, but it also may have been because she was genuinely interested in the position. If put to it, if Harry tried out against Ginny or anyone for that matter, he would probably win because of his longer experience and natural talent so I really don't Ginny is the thing that will save his position. Ginny and Hermione might be best friends, but when they are heading out for the MoM, Hermione didn't see her as a possibility to go. Now maybe that was due to Harry's first assessement, maybe it's due to Ginny being Ron's baby sister, but Hermione didn't automatically include her best friend either in the first go around. Which I noticed some posters on this forum took as a very telling scene and I guess that goes into my theory about Ginny having to play second best to Hermione. There's an established dynamic between the trio and although there were additions made in this last caper, the trio do go to each other first. Even when Harry and Ron have been on the outs, they still go to Hermione or when one is on the outs with Hermione, they turn to the other. For five years it has been this way and if the girlfriend in question is Ginny, the little sister who has seen how this works, the natural inclination may be to continue as they always have on the assumption that Ginny would accept it.



quote:

Yes this was risky but Ginny knows well when something is safe and when something isn't. She learned that from the Twins. The twins got in trouble but they knew when to draw the line. And this conversations I consider it very important. Reaching the point were you start thinking that your father force your mother to marry him must be really mind distourbing.

So fourteen year old Ginny knows what's safe and what's not but not her mother, Lupin, Dumbledore and the rest? Okay.....moving on. Again, they were in a tense situation with everything riding on they're being able to keep out of trouble, the need to know that your father wasn't just a jerk who pantsed someone and your parent's courting history isn't when you risk it.

Quote:
What seems to be the problem here? There was a clue there. . .

The problem? They were looking for Sirius, a known criminal to the Ministry, and there was certainty that they were going to meet Deatheaters and possibly the end of their lives and she picks that particular time to pop off about his being drawn to the veil because he told her to move on. Again, call him up on prattish behavior, but not in the middle of a dangerous situation over something as trivial as that.

quote:
Yet that brought him to his senses and started getting better. Ginny's way of dealing is excellent for Harry. Instead of treating him like a child. Ginny treats him like an equal which raises Harry's level of maturity and provokes him to behave better and act like a grown up. On the other hand Hermione usually treats Harry like a child like he doesn't know what he is doing which usually causes resentment and provokes him to be more revelious. Ginny way of dealing of Harry makes him stop dueling on self pity and focus on the problem. I simply loves the way that Ginny handles Harry!

What brought him to his senses was that and Hermione reminding him he couldn't apparate out of Hogwarts to be Voldemort's pawn. Hermione doesnt' treat Harry like a child, but she's not his fan, she will tell him the truth. Which as I recall in that particular scene she told him to stop feeling misunderstood and told him the simple facts without calling him names, much like most adults would. Harry resents the truth in what Hermione tells him because as you so rightly put it, he needs to learn some lessons. One of them is about arrogance and the true price of it. Another is that without truth there can be no trust. Harry may not like that Hermione cautions him against his impulses, but he does value her opinion and that's where most of the arguements with her lay. She didn't agree, he railed, she stood her ground, but they didn't finish until they had come upon some mutual decision. Because he needs her. Hermione is the one who forces him to focus on the problem, not just what he wants, but what it takes to get it and how it will be done and ultimately, how it will affect him.

Ginny's nice and a lot of fun, but I just prefer Hermione's way.

[BabyMars]

Originally posted by haycheng (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=469846#post469846))
In the end, I agree the H/Hr define has more evident to favor their relationship. However, let not forget that Ginny has just as much chance. As a character that is underdeveloped, JKR can do anything she want with Ginny and makes her fit H/G perfect. It is the fexibility Ginny character that make me believe H/G just as possible as H/Hr.


Hi HeyCheng.

I agree with you completely. Although I do ship H/Hr, i believe that OotP was a step up for the H/G ship. Although I do think Hermione has a leg up over Ginny at this moment in time, that doesn't mean things cannot change. There are still two books and JKR can continure to develop Ginny in which ever way she likes. I admit, I like her character, because, to me, she is a lot like the twins.

In any case, at this point in time, because of textual evidence, I do believe that Hermione does have a leg up over Ginny. All we can really do until the next installment is released is speculate with evidence and subtle hints written in the books. However, there may be two books left, but I do believe the clues have been layed out and the relationship JKR is leading towards has been building up from book number one. Based on the evidence discovered has been discovered, analyzed, and debated to the point where we can't anymore, I do believe H/Hr will hit the tape marker first.

Cheers :smooch:

[evaluna]

00Hawk, Thanks [we are professionals, after all...]
Ecthelion, VERY interesting psych anal of Ron

Gily Ann: These posts contain some of your strongest points to date IMO. I just want to touch on a few of them. I've included a ref to topic.
--------------------
quote: Gily Ann
As a matter of fact, yes she does. Hermione gives Harry what he needs, not simply what he wants.
Sometimes what you need is not what you want. You usually will end up going with what you want.

This is really splitting hairs. It depends on the maturity level involved really, and the level of self awareness. For myself, I want what I need. but the characters are at different stages. Do you see? Once Harry figures out where his heart is, she [whomever you favour] will be the one he needs and the one he wants.

[b]quote: Gily Ann
(re: If Hermione disagrees with Harry on Sirius's behaviour)
I mean Harry wasn't in danger when they were going back to Howgarts and she harshly critized him

(re: Hermione opposing Harry's desire to contact Sirius after Pensieve)
Protecting someone is sometimes the best way to hurt them. Dumbledore on his 150 years learned that now.[/b]

You are correct about Dumbledore, but we see no evidence that you are correct regarding Hermione. In every instance I can think of, Harry was right to listen to her [when he’d calmed down] or wrong when he didn’t. At the end, the cost of not listening to Hermione’s caring advice was Sirius’s life, as Harry mentioned twice to Dumbledore, obviously with deep regret.

[b]quote: Gily Ann
(re: library discussion re: Sirius in OoP)
And this conversations I consider it very important. Reaching the point were you start thinking that your father force your mother to marry him must be really mind distourbing.[/b]

GA, I agree that this is a serious issue for Harry. However the timing was the problem. They had reason to believe Sirius’s life in danger if his whereabouts became known, and Hermione also rightly felt that there was no telling what Umbridge was capable of doing to Harry and she feared much worse than expulsion for Harry if he was caught. (Note after all that when Harry did manage to contact Sirius, neither he nor Lupin denied that James had been an arrogant prat, rather just that he’d gotten better with age. In other words, the end message of this scene IMO was the sad futility of Harry’s attempt to reconcile his father’s character as a young man with the man he’d always imagined him to be.)

[b]quote: Gily Ann
(re: Ginny generally)
Ginny's whole problem is with herself. My best shot is she must be angry at herself for loving(because I do believe that she does) someone who she believes will never pay attention to her.[/b]

GA, this would be a plausible explanation, although I am not sure what in canon supports this. Ginny finally seemed to be comfortable in her skin, not angry but rather just a little volatile and quick-tempered, just as Ron and his mother can be, as well. However, Ginny says and acts like she’s over her crush on Harry, and is finally able to talk to him. I don’t see anything to contradict this, so to my eyes in OoP there is no interest on either side but rather a better friendship than previously, as Ginny was not really a big part of the circle till OoP. You are right that anything can happen by way of crush, but IMO there is not enough time for love between H/G at the rate the characters have been growing and with the relative lack of any shared experience before the DoM showdown. CoS doesn’t count in my book, as Ginny was out the whole time, awaking only when Harry and Fawkes had put everything to rights.

[b]quote: Gily Ann
(re: library discussion re: Sirius in OoP)
She has been only one week close to him but for someone that Harry was beginning to get close to he talk to her about something that many said it was impossible to do so. Ginny's aproach is differrent but one that works fairly well not only with Harry but with a lot of people. I though that people would have notice that by now.[/b]

This is clearly your strongest point, the only real positive connection in the book. Meanwhile there are several other negative interactions which others have already laid forth. I don’t find one conversation to be more than an indication of a better friendship. If one tries to make it into more, it seems like a bit of a stretch or even a red herring. It’s not to say that JKR couldn’t still take off from this one scene and create a romance. It just really wouldn’t be credible IMO beyond the level of crush. Harry is clearly not the type to trust easily and I don’t see this changing overnight between books 5 and 6. Instead he will come to trust those he already relies on, DD & co @the Order, his own DA, Ron, and especially Hermione. We see in his regrets to DD how he knows he was wrong to have ignored Hermione and he trusts her now above all others.

Moreover, re: Ginny, I keep coming back to the fact that she is able to converse normally with Harry specifically because she’s over her crush, and thus she and Harry are finally able to talk as normal friends in the library. IMO if Ginny were not over her crush, it would have been someone else in the library speaking to Harry. I think the conversation is clearest evidence for me of Ginny not liking Harry anymore, and we know he’s never fancied her.

[b]quote: Gily Ann
(re: Ginny discussing Voldy possesion in OoP)
Yet that brought him to his senses and started getting better. Ginny's way of dealing is excellent for Harry. Instead of treating him like a child. Ginny treats him like an equal which raises Harry's level of maturity and provokes him to behave better and act like a grown up. [/b]

Not very sensitive, though, is she? More aggravated at Harry for holing himself up, acting a prat, or something along those lines. Also Ginny seems aggravated that Harry had forgotten the main point of why Ginny was down in the Chamber. Let me say that all the characters have their less than sensitive moments, of course. Mainly, however, what I see here is impatience at Harry [she doesn’t understand him] and/or irritation at being forgotten [this hurts her pride, regardless of whether she ever liked him or not]. Ginny is reacting rather normally, that is, from her own point of view and what she wants and thinks is important. Not from Harry’s POV or what he might need.

Ginny does end up contributing in part to Harry’s emotional recovery, but we have to remember that Hermione was the first to ‘break through’ and to reach him in his isolation, so that they could even talk to him in the first place. He was depressed, sleep-deprived and on the verge of bolting. Clearly not himself. Hermione got through to Harry and then brought the others on to help. Moreover it clearly appears that Hermione gave up time with her parents to come to London to support Harry. Hermione’s acts are sensitive and selfless. Ginny’s actions are perfectly normal responses but are just not so sensitive and selfless, particularly given Harry’s fragile state. IMO the difference is their position regarding Harry. Hermione probably loves him already [IMO] whilst Ginny is becoming a better friend to Harry but thinks he’s being a git and needs to snap out of it.

[b]quote: Gily Ann
(re: Broom in PoA)
Did he? He said I supposed. He never saw in her being sorry about it. One of the differences of the Harry/ Ron fight and the H/Hr fight is that Harry sees in Ron his apologies he sees how sorry he is. He sees that he was worried. He never saw that in Hermione. He said that he knew her intentions were good. But he doesn’t see her being sorry for doing that.[/b]

Again, perhaps we’re splitting hairs. This is not about apologising for wrong behaviour or insults. What Harry knew is what Hermione told him from the start – that she was worried about his life. Although peeved at her for a time over the loss of a quite snazzy material item [it had no further meaning as at time, he thought the broom had nothing to do with Sirius the Killer], Harry clearly understood her that her concern was sincere. His understanding and gratitude is obvious since he initiates conversation with her immediately after return of the broom. Harry realizes at that moment that Hermione was willing to risk his friendship to save his life, and this is certainly one of the moments when their friendship advances a level.

[GryffindorGal]

[quote]Originally posted by Hope1272 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470059#post470059))
Quote<GilyAnn>


All of them help Hermione again was not the only one there. Maybe I should give Ginny some credit since Harry remember that he wasn't the only one that has ever been possesed by Voldemort. You think she would have helped!

Hermione is the one who got them together in the same room to talk. By the time she got him in the room, Harry was ready. He would have left otherwise. But whatever her reason, seeing Harry was obviously a priority given she still had on her coat, had pink cheeks, and had snow in her hair. She obviously didn't stop to chit chat with the rest of the Weasley clan despite Mr. Weasley being in the hospital and goes up to the room straight away. I would say that Ginny's recount and Hermione's point about not being able to apparate held equal weight in easing Harry's mind. But Hermione is the one who was able to get him out of his self imposed exile in order to even talk to them.>>


But how much did Ginny really help? She told him that him that since he didn't have gaps in his memories that he couldn't have been possesed by LV. But he was being possessed, it was just different from Ginny's experience.

As I recall Hermione told her parents that anyone who was serious about OWLS was staying at school. And she also tells Harry that Dumbledore told her immediately what had happened to Mr Weasley but that she had to wait until the term officially ended before she could leave.

Sounds to me like she was summoned to 12 Grimmauld, They couldn't get through to him so they called the one peson that they knew could.

[lleyki]

Okay let me say this before I start. I've said it so often I should probably add it to my posts as a disclaimer.:) Anyway, I tried to read the book as unbiased as possible and I honestly believe that JK delibrately left MANY ships open. They all had their one or two moments. That said I had my personal feelings on certain things and one of them is the great debate of who is better for Harry. Hermione or Ginny. I really believe that a big part of it comes down to personal feelings and what appeals to you; as well as cannonical evidence.

Okay I'll start with Ginny first. Let me make it clear that I DO NOT hate the character. I have NO idea where this 'Ginny is loose or a slut' opinions are coming from. The girl is 14 yrs. old. Casual dating is normal and I don't think Ginny is doing anything more than a kiss or two with ANY of those boys. That said I was one of those persons happy that Ginny got a personality because by GOF I was desperate for ANYTHING to make the girl interesting.

That said I DIDNOT find her incredibly interesting. Sorry but that's personal taste. Ginny seemed like any typical 14 yr. old to me, just as Ron usually comes off as typical. Put it this way; if OOTP was the first HP book I read; the character would not be stuck in my memory or make such an impact on me. Luna(yes), Harry (definitely), Hermione, the twins and even Umbridge; but not her. Also I was one of those persons who found parts of Ginny's development contrived and convenient. With what little I saw of Ginny in the previous books; the image drawn was a girl who was shy, quiet but strong. Yes I know Ron said in COS that it was surprising she wasn't saying much around Harry since she usually doesn't shut up; but that's with her family. You can be very vocal with your family because of the comfort level; but still be extremely shy around other people. I believed she was shy because I felt that explained her nervousness around Harry. Confident, snappy girls like we were supposed to believe Ginny is after OOTP; DO NOT stammer and go speechless around guys they like. The two pictures don't go together. I believed she was strong because if nothing else she survived that whole Voldemort drama, looking normal and stable. She appeared sweet and caring (sticking to her date with Neville and I guess it would be hard for her not to be, being a Weasley and all. Yes there's Percy but every family has a black sheep.) However the Quidditch thing seemed EXTREMELY contrived and IF JK is going the way of H/G, R/Hr; a very convenient way to get them closer. As convenient as making Ron a Prefect(I really don't need to start my rant on this again).

Okay the meat of this post. The debate of who is better for Harry. Ginny had character development and a few moments was written between herself and Harry. So why then did I still NOT come out loving the pair? Why did I still NOT connect to the character and am still NOT able to swallow her as Harry's great love? Is it because I refuse to EVER accept any other girl for Harry except Hermione? Not really; because I truly am warmed to the idea of Harry and Luna and while I was NEVER a H/C shipper, I felt JK's treatment of that relationship was EXTREMELY poorly written and developed. Okay so why then do I NOT see and believe in the beauty of H/G? I'll argue using the moments many supporters of that ship saw as promoting it.

Ginny's Talking Of Her Possession- Before I comment on this; I want to mention something Gilyann said about how she loves the way Ginny talks to Harry. Fair enough. She was certainly direct and cutting with him in this scene. However, before her comments Hermione is the one who tells Harry outrightly to stop lying about being fine and she informs him to stop acting so misunderstood(which he really was doing at that point). Therefore the argument of how Ginny speaks to Harry is a little pale to Hermione. Hermione can be sympathetic, angry, defiant, exasperated, funny, warm, etc with Harry. It all depends on what the situation calls for. Okay Ginny's talking of her possession. A couple of reasons I DIDNOT see this as helping the pair.

Harry was very insensitive. I LOVE the boy but I am open to his less than stellar moments. This could have been a great connection or bonding moment with Harry and Ginny; but it wasn't. The girl was sharing something that was extremely traumatic for her and Harry's only reaction was to feel joy and relief because as it turned out he wasn't being possessed. There is very little warmth and sympathy by Harry coming towards Ginny or her pain. None. He was more concerned with himself which I can't really blame the kid for but it certainly didn't help the ship. It felt basically that the entire scene was there for expository purposes. We the readers along with Harry were supposed to realize why Harry definitely could not be possessed by Voldemort; because as it turned out he had none of Ginny's experiences. Plus since she was being made more important in this book it did help to revisit that since it really was the last time she had any real purpose in the books.

The biggest gripe in this scene for me was because of those words spoken by Harry "I forgot." WHAT? How in the hell do you forget something like that? Especially when you can remember a curse used on your glasses in Year 3. A spell which he DIDNOT do himself and one he didn't EVER use again until that point. Harry could remember this and not that Ginny was possessed by Voldemort? This wasn't a case of this happening to Ginny and Harry only being aware because he knows Ron. He was THERE. He found her, he knew before anyone else that she was the one who had opened the chamber and it was because she was being controlled. How do you forget something like that, especially such a sequence of dark events? I know someone would say he had alot on his mind but hasn't anyone noticed that besides the spell for his glasses, how many little, almost seemingly insignificant memories of Hermione seem to be creeping in Harry's mind? Things from their earliest years to present; yet this he forgets.

Okay the issue of Hermione informing Harry and Ron that Ginny no longer "fancies Harry". Harry's response? "So that's why she's talking now?" I'll admit that Harry doesn't like Ginny right now so one doesn't expect him to be broken up that's she's apparently over him. However, the fact that it took Hermione's saying Ginny was over him to make him realize why she was 'speaking' now; says something. If Harry was really aware of Ginny in the slightest way; Harry would have made some comment or realization to himself from the weeks at Grimmauld Place that Ginny seemed to be speaking more around him. With the start of all the previous books there was the mention of Ginny having always been taken with Harry and then her blushing, etc, etc. A blank statement by Harry of Ginny being more talkative around him than she'd ever been would have sufficed. It would have shown his actual awareness of her, even if only on a subconscious level.

The library incident. I am a big enough person to accept something as sweet, whether or not I like the ship(unlike MANY people here). It was rather cute when they were being chased out of the library by Madam Pince and there was genuine one-on-one interaction between them. However I maintain that I DIDNOT like the fact that Ginny didn't even ask ANY questions but simply gave Harry what he wanted. Plus it didn't impress me much that she simply went to the twins to let them come up with something. I don't mean to be petty and look like I'm making strikes against one and the other(but what the hell) but when Hermione wants to solve Harry's problems she does it on her own. She came with the idea of the DA, the article was her idea, she came up with the entire plan to use Umbridge's office to try to talk to Sirius before they went to DOM; right down to small things like immediately knowing he couldn't see in the rain and fixing his glasses, saving him from falling off his broom(although that wasn't exactly small), making a soothing potion for his hands, etc. I could go on but I think you'll get the point. Again I felt like Ginny should have at least asked Harry why this was so important. I mean they would be risking being caught by Umbridge(who was certifiable psychopath, Sirius being found out, etc. Who knows? Harry might have very well answered and right there an even deeper moment would be shared between them because as noted Harry didnot tell Hermione and Ron about the pensieve memory of his parents. This would be big because it would the first big, emotional thing in his life that they didn't know but someone else besides Sirius or DD, knew. However, for what it was, it was at least cute.

A few other things. I know some persons are making a deal about Harry standing infront of Ginny when Bellatrix threatnens to hurt her first. However it's been argued very eloquently that ALL the kids moved in closer around Ginny and then Harry stepped infront. In other words, these kids were going to go down ALL fighting for each other. Btw, it should be noted that Harry at that point KNEW he had led his friends into a trap and was about to do anything to get them ALL out safely. It was simple instinct people. Also in the book there were moments which revealed that Harry continues to look on Ginny as someone in his life but not central to it. For instance, his telling statement to her, Neville and Luna that the situation DIDNOT include them when they wanted to go to the DOM too. In essence; Harry's immediate world continues to be and STILL is Ron and Hermione and no amount of Quidditch playing time together in Bk.6 is going to convince me that will change.

There were also a few times where Ginny STILL came off as a child and sometimes a rather petulant one at that. The DOM incident is one and her scowl and response to Hermione saying they needed three thestrals. I honestly believed Hermione said this out of habit in that herself, Harry and Ron really are ones who go on their adventures. Sometimes one may not be there but NO ONE outside the trio is ever included and it was just a force of habit statement. However the way Ginny reacted, I half expected her to stamp her foot and pout. I also got the sense that Ginny saw this as one big, exciting adventure and "I want to be a part of it." She wants to prove she's no kid and while I can understand that; this isn't a game or some little adventure. It's real life. It's dangerous and real. Finally there's still that eerie feeling of deja-vu I got reading Sirius chasing the train. I am NOT saying Ginny will definitely die but I still see it as a HUGE possibility. To all that, I say is H/G possible? Sure. Anything's possible right now. Do I think she is better for Harry than Hermione? No; and that's an opinion I'll hold whether or not she and Harry end up together. Okay I was going to comment about why Hermione is better for him but it's REALLY late here and I'm tired; which means I'm having trouble pullling my thoughts together; so I'll post on THAT tomorrow.

[sone]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=469817#post469817))
That's exactly what I mean when I say that not giving a name wouldn't have proved anything. If Ginny cared about Dean, wouldn't she have wanted to minimize the reaction in the same way?


Yes and no. She would want to of course but it would be pointless anyway. The reaction would of been the same no matter who it was or when he found out except for Harry himself. Ron is going to be Ron. Ginny just may started living with it and not caring about Ron's reaction.

[Erise]

:clappy: :clappy: Excellent post lleyki!

That's about everything I feel about the Ginny-Harry-Hermione issue, and more. Am eagerly anticipating your next post!

[FlyingPhoenix]

Well like always great great post by lleyki, hope, Earendil
,Ecthelion and evaluna Edit: I hope I didn´t nobody forget.

I wanted write about Ginny and how much her reaction and her great scenes in the libary or at the PHQ is replaceable by Ron. You know this one about Voldemort possesing her it could have easiely Ron who ask Harry if he can remember what he did or if he has lack in his memory and as he said No, Ron could say well Ginny couldn´t remember. That what Ginny dos isn´t special not in the slightest way. Thats the very different to Hermione. Hermione isn´t someone who you could replace. What she do and say is unremarkable Hermione but by Ginny is what she say and do not different to her brothers. She is very much alike Ron and like the twins.

I even wanted to write my answers to GillyAnn but how lucky I´m lleyki did bring it very much better as I could.

But there are things which I don´t understand its the fact that Harry do ignore Ginny. Ignore her more as anybody else only Parvati and Lavender are more ignored by him. I did expect that Harry ask this question why Ginny speaks with him by his own but not as Hermione pointed out that she isn´t anymore after him. Boy thats two weeks after he saw and hear Ginny. Simply it didn´t interest him not in the slightest way. He found the portraits on the wall more interest as that Ginny could look at him without to blush. I mean sorry but thats byond any uninterests in that girl.
And still in OotP Harry don´t speak with Ginny by his own not directly. I mean he don´t go to her and ask things or start a conversation he would ignore her if she wouldn't talk to him. Thats the only different Ginny did change but not Harry. He is still uninterest in her. He don´t lose one though on her. Not even remember her first year and isn´t bothered to state he did forget it. Honestly even if he forgot why not say I didn´t thought on it or something like that. No, he said he forgot. You know how that sound to Ginny, do you? If she didn´t decide before that Harry isn´t her guy after that for sure she know it now. Harry forgot her most frightens year in her live and he isn´t even bothered to say it to her. This say for sure to Ginny that she was never that important that her feelings for him were wasted time. He didn´t want it and didn´t need it. Thats what this say to her that she would be mad if she falls once more for him. For someone who just forgot her. But enough mind has to remember Hermiones little spell. Sorry but I like Ginny to much as if I want that she falls again for someone who dos a great deal with ignoring her. Not just her but her feelings, too. Thats maybe the main reason why I think H/G is just not my ship. If I see two people together I hope they recorgnise each other.

[You-Know-Who]

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468149#post468149))
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Ginny dumped girls!?! What version of OotP do you have? :lol:


:whistle:

Ok that should be guys and you know it ;)


Btw, Futurama rocks!


We both agree on something :D

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=468993#post468993))
My opinion, there's no reason to think Ginny was lying about Dean.

Except of course to get on Ron's nerves, if this is true, it worked perfectly, didn't it?

[FlyingPhoenix]

I couldn´t resist and write some more I need simply to answer or quote some things here. Look like I´m sometimes just like Harry and ignore people but not today, I think so.

By GilyAnn
To your opinion I know. I highly disagree and have presented my arguments against that. It is clear that while Hermione is one of Harry’s best friends she still has a long way to go. Hermione has a lot of issues and I for once I'm worried that I don't see JKR working towards resolving them.
You might be right that Hermione has issuse I don´t doubt it but by her they are visible and Harry know them. But by Ginny is it pretty much in the dark and I´m sure she has issuse probably more as Hermione. Why I think so? Its how Ginny react and not what she say. She still has the same issuse like in COS. Still she fight against that little ickly girl image. Something what gos straight in the wrong direction. Ginny seems to need to proof herself. She can lie and I know already why she do it because 1. She don´t want to be under controll of someone else. 2. She hasn´t enough strength to go her own way without to lie. I know this sound harsh but I make it clear what I mean. Hermione say straight out what she want thats by Ginny not the case. She just wait as long as possible till she stop to lie. Like this one about Micheal, which Hermione did enconver, like this one with quiditch, which was again Hermione who said it, like this one that Ginny don´t like Harry anymore, which again Hermione did say. Ginny did not once tell from her own the true. She create a secret around her wanting and thats a real issuse. To that comes that Ginny want proof herself without even a second though thats where COS didn´t change her. She didn´t learn from that and didn´t change her behaviour not in the slightest way. Still she has her secrets and still she think she can proof herself without a second thought. The only different is that Hermione seems the only one who know it. It can be very very easy that Ginny and Harry got a fight. Its not everything so perfect how it seems. Ginny has issuse and a behaviour what crash with Harrys. Harry is the hero and Ginny is the little girl who can´t fight by her own thats what Harry thinks. He don´t respect her abilitys. Its much more like that Ginny seems to get it slowly that she is again only that little girl. The only one who seems not see that little girl is what a surprise Neville. He did even ask her to the ball something what Harry would never do in GoF and not in OotP. Neville is directly talking to Ginny and not like Harry only if she ask or start the conversation.

Did he? He said I supposed. He never saw in her being sorry about it. One of the differences of the Harry/ Ron fight and the H/Hr fight is that Harry sees in Ron his apologies he sees how sorry he is. He sees that he was worried. He never saw that in Hermione. He said that he knew her intentions were good. But he doesn’t see her being sorry for doing that. Well, Harry did not after he got the firebolt back. But what he did was to understand Hermiones doing. Thats special very special that he though he is angry like never before still he get that she mean it good. That she do it from her heart because she care about him. Thats what Harry don´t has as Dumbledore tried to explaine things. Harry never though he has the best on the heart. Thats by the fight between Harry and Ron, too. By Hermione in every case in every annoyed moment Harry kknow she mean it well. That she isn´t against him though he is nearly exploding in anger he still has in mind she mean it well. Try it, try that by your friend if you has a fight with him or her and tell me if you still think its only good meaning. I don´t even get that by my parents. So its a very very big deal.

Ron did. Sometimes a little diplomacy wouldn't kill her. I mean Harry wasn't in danger when they were going back to Howgarts and she harshly critized him. It honestly wouldn't have harmed her.
There is a problem and that is Hermione knows Sirius probably better as Harry. Hermione and Ron are some weeks before Harry there and saw Sirius without Harry around. I´m sure that Sirius was a big deal different and did different speak about Harry. Harry need to know what kind of person Sirius is and that he isn´t that perfect. What Hermione did say wasn´t harsh it was honest and even sorry for Sirius.

"No, I just think he´s been very lonely for a long time,"

GilyAnn

Sometimes what you need is not what you want. You usually will end up going with what you want. Not in that case. Harry know that Hermione mean it well. Thats a very big deal. If he know it than he know what he need and in that case he will end up with that what he need

[Turambar]

I don't see any sign that Harry shows interest in Ginny beyond the fact that she's part of his favourite family, the Weasleys.
And even with that there are times immediately after the snake dream where he feels that close as he is to them, he is still apart, despite Molly's comment earlier that he is as good as a son to her. He is unable to help Ron at that time and neither Molly or Ron are able to help him, until Hermione arrives. Obviously his guilt over the dream was a factor there.

Essentially, despite Ginny's development as a character, all Harry has responded to about the new Ginny is that she's easier to get on with because she's no longer awkward around him.
The fact that she's a year behind and she's Ron's kid sister is a barrier between them. Where does he show any interest in her magical skills, despite the fact that her brothers are proud of them. Where does he show any interest in what she's doing socially - Ron and Hermione are more interested in that. She doesn't offer up ideas when he wants to speak to Sirius, she doesn't even stop to think if she can come up with anything. Her reaction when Hermione devises a plan is simply to follow orders like a good soldier.
Harry does notice that she's close to Fred and George and even looks like them. Is she essentially meant to fill their shoes as the reckless Weasley?

OOTP is Ginny's notice-I'm-no-longer-a-kid book. We see the Ginny who can be socially confident, play quidditch, do spells. But none of that seems to impress Harry. He makes an honest assessment of her quidditch skills, completely devoid of the emotional connection that for example colours his vision in regards to Hagrid's teaching skills.
It's interesting that Harry rescued Ginny from the chamber and it made no difference to his attitude to her. In fact he makes a point of reminding Ron in OOTP about rescuing "your sister" - which is impersonal and attaches her value to the worth of Ron.
Yet Harry and Ron's rescue of Hermione was so momentus the three, after previously disliking each other, became friends.
Similarly the emergence of Ginny Mark II offers the opportunity for reassessment: a kind of book long version of Hermione's social breakthrough at the Yule Ball.

Despite the fact that we know more about Ginny and she's more likeable than the Ginny we knew before, as a character she still seems a bit unnecessary, a kind of shadow Hermione as Neville is perhaps emerging as a shadow Harry.
What is Ginny's function? We have a heroine, a female lead, a female best friend for Harry. Is Ginny essentially a literary device, a distraction within the romance plot for the reader?

So Ginny shows a bit of bravery, friendship and loyalty: Hermione has them in abundance. No one has been as loyal to Harry as Hermione has.
Since Hermione puts Harry before everything else, even her family, she is totally single-minded when it comes to looking after his safety, his well-being. She'll come up with different ideas to make him feel better, she'll say things he doesn't want to hear for his own good, she'll repeatedly put herself in danger for him.
No-one else is ever likely to be that crazy, that dedicated to Harry.

Unlike Ginny, Hermione can come up with great ideas, and has the initiative, analytical skills and sharpness of mind to carry them out by herself, and to out-manoeuvre supposedly intelligent adults while doing so.
So Ginny can be direct and to the point, so can Hermione. So Ginny can be sympathetic, so can Hermione.
So we see that Ginny has a fun-loving side, but we're also seeing Hermione lightening up more.

Just as Ginny has developed so Harry and Hermione have developed to a more powerful, mature level.
Before this book, JKR had both Harry and Hermione interested in older people - Cho and Krum.
An important theme of OOTP is about the transition from childhood to adulthood, dealing with responsibility, with both Harry and Hermione taking on the mantle of leadership. Instead of others coming up to their level, the gap has become a chasm.

[sone]

I agree completely Turambar. If anybody notices, Harry is starting to act a little like Hermione and Hermione is starting to act a little like Harry. Harry becoming a bit more cautious and Hermione developing a bit more of Harry's "certain disregard for the rules".

Harry and Hermione do both take on the mantle of leadership surprisingly finding compromise only in each other. Harry and Hermione are also marveled at for their magical talent.

[GilyAnn]

Ginny’s characterization:

Everything that it was flesh out about Ginny was there jkr didn’t invent anything. Perhaps we should go back and look for it. I find amusing that H/Hr shippers constantly say that H/G has a possibility but it’s small. Yet I have to see a H/Hr shipper (exept haycheng and she is a non-shipper) who says that h/g has the same possibility. Yet I have to see a h/hr who considers that jkr flesh out Ginny now because she was waiting for the right moment or simply because she perhaps has a clue that jkr doesn’t want us to know. If jkr said that she drop some clues because she dindn’t want readers to say that she cheated us. Couldn’t that apply to the h/g ship. I mean it became a bit clearer in this book that H/G is a possibility for many. Yet I haven’t seen one h/hr shipper who considers this.

Hermione talking about Sirius:

Here is what Hermione says again no one is in danger. Harry is simply talking about Sirius. And Hermione jumps up and ill talks about Sirius. No wonder Harry was mad. But I’m sure someone can find a justification for Hermione’s actions as usual:


Over the next few days Harry could not help noticing that there was one person within number twelve, Grimmauld Place, who did not seem wholly overjoyed that he would be returning to Hogwarts. Sirius had put up a very good show of happiness on first hearing the news, wringing Harry's hand and beaming just like the rest of them. Soon, however, he was moodier and surlier than before, talking less to everybody, even Harry, and spending increasing amounts of time shut up in his mother's room with Buckbeak.

'Don't you go feeling guilty!' said Hermione sternly, after Harry had confided some of his feelings to her and Ron while they scrubbed out a mouldy cupboard on the third floor a few days later. 'You belong at Hogwarts and Sirius knows it. Personally, I think he's being selfish.'
That's a bit harsh, Hermione,' said Ron, frowning as he attempted to prise off a bit of mould that had attached itself firmly to his finger, 'you wouldn't want to be stuck inside this house without any company.'
'He'll have company!' said Hermione. 'It's Headquarters to the Order of the Phoenix, isn't it? He just got his hopes up that Harry would be coming to live here with him.'

don't think that's true/ said Harry, wringing out his cloth. 'He wouldn't give me a straight answer when I asked him if 1 could.'

'He just didn't want to get his own hopes up even more,' said Hermione wisely. 'And he probably felt a bit guilty himself, because I think a part of him was really hoping you'd be expelled. Then you'd both be outcasts together.'

'Come off it!' said Harry and Ron together, but Hermione merely shrugged.

'Suit yourselves. But I sometimes think Rons mums right and Sirius gets confused about whether you're you or your father, Harry.'

Moly and Hermione were two very rude people regarding Sirius. It’s not a wonder that Harry didn’t feel like talking about Sirius with Ron or Hermione. Harry will may have to find a new confidant.

Quote:
I want to mention something Gilyann said about how she loves the way Ginny talks to Harry. Fair enough. She was certainly direct and cutting with him in this scene. However, before her comments Hermione is the one who tells Harry outrightly to stop lying about being fine and she informs him to stop acting so misunderstood(which he really was doing at that point).

Actually lleyki here is that part:



She sat down next to Ginny, and the two girls and Ron all looked up at Harry.

'How're you feeling?' asked Hermione.

Tine,' said Harry stiffly.

'Oh, don't lie, Harry,' she said impatiently. 'Ron and Ginny say you've been hiding from everyone since you got back from St Mungo's.'
They do, do they?' said Harry, glaring at Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.

'Well, you have!' she said. 'And you won't look at any of us!'

'It's you lot who won't look at me!' said Harry angrily.

'Maybe you're taking it in turns to look, and keep missing each other,' suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.

'Very funny,' snapped Harry, turning away.

'Oh, stop feeling all misunderstood,' said Hermione sharply. 'Look, the others have told me what you overheard last night on the Extendable Ears -'

'Yeah?' growled Harry, his hands deep in his pockets as he watched the snow now falling thickly outside. 'All been talking about me, have you? Well, I'm getting used to it.'

'We wanted to talk to you, Harry,' said Ginny, 'but as you've been hiding ever since we got back -'

'I didn't want anyone to talk to me,' said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.

'Well, that was a bit stupid of you,' said Ginny angrily, 'seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels.'

Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. Then he wheeled round.

'I forgot,' he said.

'Lucky you,' said Ginny coolly.

'I'm sorry' Harry said, and he meant it. 'So… so, do you think I'm being possessed, then?'

'Well, can you remember everything you've been doing?' Ginny asked. 'Are there big blank periods where you don't know what you've been up to?'

Harry racked his brains.

'No,' he said.

Then You-Know-Who hasn't ever possessed you,' said Ginny simply. 'When he did it to me, I couldn't remember what I'd been doing for hours at a time. I'd find myself somewhere and not know how I got there.'

Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself.
Now Harry starts to feel better after he talks to Ginny. Yet again Hermione was the one who helped Harry. When she told him to stop feeling all misunderstood. He actually started looking outside the window. Now please tell me how is it that this scene is Hermione the only who helped Harry. I’m sure some H/Hr shipper can come up with an explanation.

It was very clear to me that Harry had not forget the chambers what he obviously forgot was that Ginny had been once possessed by Voldemort. The subject on how Voldemort possessed was never discuss properly. With Harry’s busy schedule I can easily see how did he forget the actuall possession and not the whole incident. I think that was clear, or at least it was for me.

Parallel between Sirius and Ginny.

I find it amusing that many h/hr shippers ONLY seem to find the parallel of death between Sirius and Ginny. While I agree it is a possibility. The train is not the only parallel there are a few more and I perfectly see another possibility between them.

Ginny and adventure.

Lleyki perhaps you forgot this part:


“Excuse me, but I care what happens to Sirius as much as you do!�

It was Ron the one who started to say that Ginny couldn’t go. But according to you Ginny is just a child who only wants an adventure and to prove herself. Nevermind that she spend with Sirius all summer, that he was her partner in crime that they seemed to get along very well. Ginny couldn’t have possibly care about Sirius would she? She only wanted to prove herself when Harry made it clear that Sirius was being torture.

no amount of Quidditch playing time together in Bk.6 is going to convince me that will change.

Carefull Lleyki now you are being stubborn on setting your mind on H/Hr. JKR can easily convince me of h/hr if she started working on Hermione’s problems and issues. So far she hasn’t done it.

There is a lot of things we don’t know about Ginny but that have been severly hinted by jkr. I can easily see how Ginny besides being Harry’s girlfriend has a role aside from that. Independent of Harry.

About Harry seeing Ginny as a little girl:

This is true. Harry has yet to discover that Ginny is a girl, but I see this as a plus instead of as negative. JKR wants Harry and us to underestimate Ginny. To think that Ginny is weak. But after this book I’m not so sure anymore that we should. She may hit us in the head with hammer later on.

Go2go but I'll be back later to answer the rest of the post.
Gily Ann

[Ecthelion]

Thank you Earendil, Daveydee, Evaluna, and Flyingphoenix. :)

Daveydee:

I think you've slightly overplayed the 'shock and awe' card in respect of how Ron views Harry, though I would agree that he has somewhat been in Harry's shadow for many years.

Yes, I know. The moment I had finished writing that part that thought came instantly to mind. But I had really wanted to put emphasis on that particular emotion, and it was late so I just let it be. Hope you understand.

What bothers me in particular is your notion that Harry and Hermione come as a package, and that in some way, whatever Ron does that impacts on Harry will neccessarily have a similar impact on Hermione. This notion creates the impression that Ron is merely a third person tacked on to a duo (Harry/Hermione) in a somewhat semi-detatched way, rather than, as is in fact the case, as integral a part of the trio as Hermione herself.

Well, it really isn't my notion, more than just an alleged observation. And I see what you mean about people seeing the "third person" in other forms....but I think at this point, with Ron's aloof ways, it would be more believabe if he was to be described as the third character. Also, this just doesn't pretain to Ron, it concerns with anybody who "messes" with H and H. IE: cho. However, I think you are misunderstanding something, I'm not saying that Harry is the only person whom Hermione will be considerate towards. As a matter of fact, despite Ron's recent odd ways, they still stick up for each other and feel for each other, all of them. What I'm trying to say is that Harry's and Hermione's emotional affiliation is much stronger and higher in complexity than say Ron and Harry's or Ron and Hermione's....and the reason is because of certain characteristics that I described in the post we are debating about. So naturally, with that definable difference in partnerships, (non-romantic way) there will be consequences.
I hope that helps :)

Whatever you think I fully believe that Ron will come to grips with Harry and Hermione as he once was in books one through three. As to how, I have no idea, but it has to happen because someone important as one of the trio's has to stay a main character, unless he dies or something. However, before he is attuned, I think he'll have to get worse, so whether or not that will leave marks on the other two, I don't know.

[whizbang121]

There are many good points about the depth and power of Harry and Hermione's relationship and connection. I'm just not sure that romance is the best addition to this relationship.

I'm one those sissy's who fears that romance can upset an otherwise excellent relationship. So unless some really urgent chemistry suddenly erupts between Harry and Hermione, they might be happier keeping it on a mental level for the time being. There is so much to love that isn't necessarily romantic and they love each other deeply.

She was awfully pleased when Harry said he didn't think she was ugly, though. Wasn't she? ;)

It seems that even though Ron will never admit it, even to himself, he's always had a soft spot for Hermione. I think it bothers him a lot, but there it is and he's left floundering trying to cope with it. As for Hermione, I get the impression that she's willing to wait at least for a while, to see if he grows up a bit figures it out. I'm not sure how long she will wait, though.

I can't remember where I saw this idea. Don't think it was on this thread though. Remember when Ron was attacked by the brain? Is it possible this will change him into a bit more of an intellectual, something of a brainiac? Well, maybe not that remarkable a change, but enough to make it easier for him to relate to Hermione? I think the odds of chemistry are better between Ron and Hermione, but ......

I always liked Ginny/Neville. But he's gotta power up to get to her level. Perhaps a new wand will help in that regard. Ginny is a powerful being and will be half of a true "power couple" when the other half shows himself. I wonder if that's how James and Lily were?

Before OotP was released, I didn't think Harry had met his true love, yet. Now I'm wondering about Luna. Not sure, though. It may still be someone we haven't met, yet. But I think we need to consider that Harry may be very cautious about loving anyone in the near future, for fear of putting them in more danger than they're already in. You know how he takes everything on himself.

Who knows. Maybe when this is over, the danger has passed and Harry's mind is only his own, he and Hermione may turn to each other. It was significant that in the Dept of Mysteries, it was Hermione that Harry grabbed and ran with.

[Mutant for Hire]

Having gone through book five, I'm desperately looking for any signs that Hermione has been able to deal with him at all without getting him angry, much less romantic tension. Going chapter by chapter, I have not found any evidence that Hermione has any ability to keep Harry in check or to deal with him on difficult issues without setting him off. And Hermione has a habit of making comments which while she believes them to be true, serve no practical purpose amd do nothing other than to annoy Harry.

An example early in the book is in chapter nine, when Harry is feeling guilty about leaving Sirius behind all alone. Hermione tells Harry not to feel guilty and tells Harry that Sirius is just being selfish and part of him wants Harry expelled so they can be outcasts together. Whether or not this was in fact true, it was not a tactful thing to say, and there was no real reason for her to say this. And if she thought it was going to make Harry feel better, she was dead wrong about the result. She would have been better off saying nothing.

In chapter thirteen, when Luna tells Harry that she believes him Hermione goes around and insults Luna, which again gets Harry mad. For Hermione's ability to manage Harry, we can go to the end of chapter thirteen when Harry wants to write Sirius and Hermione pretty much orders him not to. He gives in temporarily and gets very angry at Hermione as a result. She won the argument but succeeded in ticking Harry off. And for all she accuses Harry of being dense later on with Cho, Hermione is dense enough to get Harry angry at her and then she turns around and asks for his help with SPEW.

And of course the following morning in chapter fourteen Harry writes the letter anyway, showing just how effective Hermione is at keeping Harry in check.

In chapter fifteen, Harry stops speaking to her for a little while after she takes McGonagall's side in taking points away after he got more detention with Umbridge. She does make it up later when Harry is relieved to find her sympathetic and giving him murtlap leaves for his hand.

In chapter eighteen Hermione has second thoughts about the DA and ticks off Harry yet again, and yet again he ignores her reservations and plunges ahead.

In chapter twenty one after the kiss with Cho, Hermione is critical of Harry's efforts. She ignores his reservations about going out with Cho and pushes him into it anyway, despite Ron's more accurate observation that Harry might not want to..

As for Hermione getting Harry out of his room in chapter twenty three, it was only about twenty four hours that Harry was not speaking to anyone. And for that matter, Molly Weasley had put Ron and Ginny to work on decorations so it wasn't like they had a lot of chances to talk to Harry before then. When they do talk to him, Hermione's comments get him angry. Ginny is the one who succeeds in calming him down and apologizing to her anyway.

In chapter twenty four, Hermione does notice how sick he is after his occlumency lesson and urges him to the common room. I make these observations of Hermione showing sympathy to Harry's complaints because they tend to be on the rare side. Harry decides to dump Hermione's Christmas present in the fire.

In chapter twenty five, Hermione fails to show Harry any sympathy when he complains about his occlumency lessons and instead tells him to work harder.

Hermione interrupts Harry's date in chapter twenty six without any remorse and then when Harry fumbles the execution, she explains to him afterwards what he should have done right, showing no sympathy to Harry at all. She then proceeds to blame Quidditch for the bad feelings between the Houses in front of three Quidditch fans who clearly love the sport. Unmoved by the fact she's offended all of them, she acts superior to Harry, Fred and George announcing how her happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping skills. Later on that same chapter Harry has another vision and Hermione's reaction angers Harry so much he stops speaking to her the rest of the day. And he doesn't want to talk to her later about his vision because he doesn't want another telling off.

In chapter twenty nine Hermione's reactioon to Harry's plan to contact Sirius gets not only Harry but Ron as well not speaking to her. Not that their ignoring him stops her nagging at all, showing how well she's handling Harry. Of course she does switch to pleading later, which again has absolutely no impact on Harry's decision. So much for being able to keep him in check.

In chapter thirty, having not learned the lesson about her nagging having no effect in all the previous chapters, she nags him again about occlumency and once more she fails to have any impact on him except to make him feel guilty. And she really sets Harry off when she says she couldn't blame Umbridge for wanting to let Hagrid go. Some things are better left unsaid.

In chapter thirty two, Hermione sets Harry off with a personal critique of his tendency for heroics. That was probably not the best way to broach the subject. She would have just better better off saying this was another trap and cutting it short. Not that she didn't make a serious effort not to set Harry off at this point, but her effort still fell a little short of her intentions. However she had one of her few successes at modifying Harry's behavior, getting him to check by fire to see if Sirius was in first.

* * *

So the record for Hermione keeping Harry in check is bad. At best, she was able to get him to modify his plan to go straight to the Ministry to check to see if Sirius was in via Umbridge's fire. Every other time Harry wanted to do something dangerous and Hermione disagreed, or Hermione thought inaction was dangerous (occlumency) she failed to get Harry to do anything. I didn't even list all the times that Harry got detention from Umbridge and started doing lines, or when he got chucked off the Quidditch team.

As for her understanding of Harry, if she has any understanding of Harry, she certainly lacks any indication that she understands how to deal with Harry. Over and over again she tries to talk to Harry about something he doesn't like and at best she makes him guilty with no result and in the worst case he gets so angry he stops speaking to her. She has two main tools to deal with him, scolding/nagging and pleading and neither of them has much effect on him. Her habit of being critical when Harry complains about problems is the behavior that is driving him to withhold information from her, and yet for all her supposed understanding of Harry she doesn't understand this. Her habit of insulting Sirius and Quidditch, as well as her comments about Hagrid, clearly show that either she does not know Harry or does not care that her comments offend him and make him angry.

Hermione clearly has no idea at all how to deal with Harry. She doesn't understand that when Harry is complaining about his problems, he wants sympathy rather than help, or perhaps help with sympathy. Hermione's habit of giving him very little sympathy, chiding him for not doing some things or just telling him to reapply his efforts does not make him warm to her as a rule. Her behavior makes him wary and inclined to withhold information. Intellectually he knows she's smarter than him, but her behavior makes him emotionally reluctant to talk to her. And I honestly think that's more her problem than his. If she showed him a little more sympathy, didn't make him feel awful for having problems and trying to talk about them, she might have a litlte better progress with him. And I don't think he likes the way she tries to tell him what to do.

Even if Rowling has Hermione interested in Harry (and there's some very mixed data on that, as frankly there are more signs of emotional warmth by Hermione towards Ron rather than Harry), the fact of the matter is that she's starting off worse than Ginny and Luna, who Harry is not conditioned to expect criticism from. And she clearly has no idea of how to make Harry happy, with the world or with her, or at least to ease his pain and sense of burden. For all her efforts to help Harry, on an emotional level its rare for her to make him feel better rather than worse, and you can't pin the blame on Harry. Hermione's actions and inactions clearly contribute to that.

The issue is not whether Harry recognizes that Hermione is right or not. In fact that rarely was the issue in book five. A lot of the time, he knew that she was right and he did things anyway, and felt guilty or angry about it. It's not going to get better over the summer. Sure, Hermione was dead right about the visions being false dreams, but that's going to make him feel worse, not better. Given Hermione's past record in dealing with Harry, she's going to tell him to study occlumency, which is going to strike a nerve with him and make him feel worse.

[Erise]

Well first of all congratulations on such a through post, Mutant for Hire. Seeing that I disagree with some, if not most of it, I would do a counterpost, but I do not have the book with me right now and am in a hurry, so I shall just leave you with a question that just came to me -

If even Hermione cannot get through to Harry to do what is safe or good for him, then who honestly can?

[whizbang121]

But we have to remember, that Harry isn't alone in his mind. Voldemort significantly affects Harry's thinking, even though neither of them quite realizes it for a while. Even in Goblet of Fire, Harry was having visions of himself winning the Triwizard Tournament when he had no intention of entering the contest and precautions had been taken to keep out students under 17. Was that Voldemort's vision? Harry liked it, but it probably wasn't his thought.

Anyway, I think this point affects Harry's relationships and potential relationships. When his mind is only his own, so much of Harry's feelings will be revealed.

[Earendil]

Well. I first have to say THANK YOU to Hope, FP, lleyki, Turambar and everyone else for saying everything that needed to be said and more. You guys are awesome.

I have absolutely no time to respond to everything that I need to at the moment, but I'll be back soon with wonderfully lengthy replies to GilyAnn and Mutant. I just needed to thank my shipmates for taking the words out of my mouth. :)

Cheers!

[Ecthelion]

Mutant for Hire, well done! Now, to concede and dispute with it....

First off, what "ship" are you? Not that it matters but I'd like to know.

Having gone through book five, I'm desperately looking for any signs that Hermione has been able to deal with him at all without getting him angry, much less romantic tension. Going chapter by chapter, I have not found any evidence that Hermione has any ability to keep Harry in check or to deal with him on difficult issues without setting him off. And Hermione has a habit of making comments which while she believes them to be true, serve no practical purpose amd do nothing other than to annoy Harry.

Your right, there hardly was any place where Hermione successfully dealt with Harry's problems without getting him mad. One could say that Harry was always in a touchy mood, but looking at Hermione's responses, I think there may have been nicer ways to set the way straight. But then again, nobody else went to deal with him as much as her anyways, so she is to be appreciated because of it, despite her rather disputable ways of coping with it. However near the end of your post, you stated this:

Hermione clearly has no idea at all how to deal with Harry.

Or does she? Admitingly, her techniques are rude and abrupt. But maybe that's how they should be. Why? Well, you say that Harry needed comfort and sympathy....well I am not sure that is entirely what he needs. Take a look where he get's some of the things you say he needs.

Warning: this is a poor example, but it states the point, I'll come back with a better one later...

"listen to me, Harry," he said urgently, "you must study Occlumency as hard as you can, do you understand me? Do everything Professor snape tells you and practice it particularly every night before sleeping so tha tyou can close your mind to bad dreams--you will understnad why soon enough, but you must promise me--"

Remember, this is coming from a man whom Harry respects, despite recent actions, and values possibly more than any other person.

The man called Dawlish was stirring. Dumbledore siezed Harry's wrist.
"remember---close your mind---"

Dumbledore siezed his wrist. That is says that he is earnestly and almost pleading Harry to do what he tells him. And keep in mind that he is in no way being rude. The man that Harry has so desperately wanted to talk to, and he finally is. Also that same man just saved him from being expelled and vanquished from his favorite and most cherished place....Hogwarts.

but as Dumbledore's fingers closed over Harry's skin, a pain shot throough the scar on his forehead, and he felt again that terrible, snakelink longing to strike Dumbledore, to bite him, to hurt him--
"--you will understand," whispered Dumbledore.

Despite all these warnings, Harry still does not do what Dumbledore has asked him to do, despite the honest and polite way Dumbledore did so.

I am guessing that nice and comforting reprimands do not make a lasting impression on Harry, as is evident throughout the books. I am guessing that Hermione knows this or has just the disposition and characteristics to criticize and point out things in a rather rude way. Because I think that the warnings have to pierce the heart and hit Harry hard in order for him to take it seriously. Both of which Hermione's reprimends do, and therefore are worthy. Because as rude as they are, they are usually right. And despite the curt attitude of most of her comments in serious situations, Harry listens to them and takes them to mind, and is on a normal basis with her in a rather short time. Although he doesn't notice it but for some precious moments, subconsciencesly, he does notice Hermione's efforts, and as you said....

The issue is not whether Harry recognizes that Hermione is right or not.

That is true, though I think it might be more important whether or not Harry recognizes that Hermione's seemingly angular comments are from her heart, and that she really wants him to be safe. Which they are. But Harry has yet to acknowledge it, as well as some other emotion feelings he has yet to realize and comprehend. Sometimes he can be extraordinary dumb. Grr. :)

[evaluna]

Turambar, sone -- great posts re: purpose of Ginny. See comments.
Also Ilyeki and FP -- great catches!


Quotes: Turambar

“Harry does notice that she's close to Fred and George and even looks like them. Is she essentially meant to fill their shoes as the reckless Weasley?�

It’s very possible. Ginny’s not quite the h*llraisers they are but she really likes their style and may pick up their mantles with a gusto.



“Despite the fact that we know more about Ginny and she's more likeable than the Ginny we knew before, as a character she still seems a bit unnecessary, a kind of shadow Hermione as Neville is perhaps emerging as a shadow Harry. What is Ginny's function? We have a heroine, a female lead, a female best friend for Harry. Is Ginny essentially a literary device, a distraction within the romance plot for the reader?�

As some have suggested, yes I think she may be a red herring regarding romance, but only for those who didn’t already believe her when she told Hermione she was over Harry and began the acting the part all book long, as well. Turambar’s parallel development between Neville and Ginny as becoming stronger supporting characters for Harry and Hermione is a very good one. There’s no doubt that Hermione clearly is still the female lead and receives the majority of the “stage time� and face time with Harry. However, if Ginny is being paralleled or perhaps even eventually paired [not necessarily romantically but who knows?] with Neville, then I think we may see more of both Neville’s and Ginny’s abilities assisting with the DA effort. This could get Ginny off the hook as mainly existing as a stealth pursuer of Harry, for once and all. Especially if she’s still dating others.



“Just as Ginny has developed so Harry and Hermione have developed to a more powerful, mature level. Before this book, JKR had both Harry and Hermione interested in older people - Cho and Krum. An important theme of OOTP is about the transition from childhood to adulthood, dealing with responsibility, with both Harry and Hermione taking on the mantle of leadership. Instead of others coming up to their level, the gap has become a chasm.�

Agreed. Although assistance from their loyal DA will continue to be critical, Harry and Hermione are really completely in a league of their own, as regards overall levels of talent, experience, and maturity.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I start to love to disagree, but I do.

Let see nice post by GilyAnn and Mutant the hire, but I disagree.

Hermione tells Harry not to feel guilty and tells Harry that Sirius is just being selfish and part of him wants Harry expelled so they can be outcasts together. Whether or not this was in fact true, it was not a tactful thing to say, and there was no real reason for her to say this. And if she thought it was going to make Harry feel better, she was dead wrong about the result. She would have been better off saying nothing.

She did say it but you forget that she add that Sirius was very long alone and that is what Harry seems to forget. I did forget it to be honest but its neccessary to remind Harry that Sirius Ã_sn´t that happy about Harrys leaving. By the way Hermione knows Sirius better as Harry do. She did see him without Harry and what he than said about Harry thats important for Harry to know. To know that Sirius isn´t perfect. If Hermione say nothing Harry would still think Sirius is perfect fine what isn't true.

In chapter thirteen, when Luna tells Harry that she believes him Hermione goes around and insults Luna, which again gets Harry mad. For Hermione's ability to manage Harry, we can go to the end of chapter thirteen when Harry wants to write Sirius and Hermione pretty much orders him not to. He gives in temporarily and gets very angry at Hermione as a result. She won the argument but succeeded in ticking Harry off. And for all she accuses Harry of being dense later on with Cho, Hermione is dense enough to get Harry angry at her and then she turns around and asks for his help with SPEW.

He wasn't angry thats wrong word for it and Harry wasn't angry about this letter which he shouldn't write. Even for Harry wasn`t it a very great moment that Luna believed him that girl believe everything and thats what Harry do know. Harry asked her and she gave him her opinion nothing more should she lie?!

And of course the following morning in chapter fourteen Harry writes the letter anyway, showing just how effective Hermione is at keeping Harry in check.

He did write it but much more carefuller as if he hadn't first speak with Hermione because he got a slightly idea how difficult it was write a letter without important information. So she did reach him.

In chapter fifteen, Harry stops speaking to her for a little while after she takes McGonagall's side in taking points away after he got more detention with Umbridge. She does make it up later when Harry is relieved to find her sympathetic and giving him murtlap leaves for his hand.

Off course Hermione isn't happy that he get more detention. Why? Because this woman is a maniac and search after a reason to torture Harry. Something what Hermione did already get.

In chapter eighteen Hermione has second thoughts about the DA and ticks off Harry yet again, and yet again he ignores her reservations and plunges ahead.

This is just wrong. Hermione do has doubts but still she go on with the DA. Its not alone Harry its mostly Hermione who gos on. Because there are two possibles first fail or to get caught. Well, caught isn't that bad.

In chapter twenty one after the kiss with Cho, Hermione is critical of Harry's efforts. She ignores his reservations about going out with Cho and pushes him into it anyway, despite Ron's more accurate observation that Harry might not want to..

Sorry but I get the impression Harry didn't thought about it just it didn't came into his mind and it was not Hermione who said yes to Cho. After all Harry is his own boss.

As for Hermione getting Harry out of his room in chapter twenty three, it was only about twenty four hours that Harry was not speaking to anyone. And for that matter, Molly Weasley had put Ron and Ginny to work on decorations so it wasn't like they had a lot of chances to talk to Harry before then. When they do talk to him, Hermione's comments get him angry. Ginny is the one who succeeds in calming him down and apologizing to her anyway.

Yeah Ginny was just great to remind this guy on her worst year which he just forgot. How I do understand what Ginny did say wanted they all talk to Harry but he did avoid them. So what you say isn´t that right. But as Hermione turns up he can't avoid her. Hermione didn't get him angry. He is already angry. And Harry was not after Ginnys story calm he was sorry and thats did the deal. The real deal was as Ron and Hermione told him he was indeed still in his bed.

Harry decides to dump Hermione's Christmas present in the fire. Its not clear if he did it because its not mention he throw it into the fire all what was written he thought about it.

In chapter twenty five, Hermione fails to show Harry any sympathy when he complains about his occlumency lessons and instead tells him to work harder.

You forget he did just tell that he has still his dreams and Hermione seems to know that Voldemort is behind it. She did it know at this time because her mention later Harrys dream about Sirius isn´t true have to be earlier in her mind.

Hermione interrupts Harry's date in chapter twenty six without any remorse and then when Harry fumbles the execution, she explains to him afterwards what he should have done right, showing no sympathy to Harry at all. She then proceeds to blame Quidditch for the bad feelings between the Houses in front of three Quidditch fans who clearly love the sport. Unmoved by the fact she's offended all of them, she acts superior to Harry, Fred and George announcing how her happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping skills. Later on that same chapter Harry has another vision and Hermione's reaction angers Harry so much he stops speaking to her the rest of the day. And he doesn't want to talk to her later about his vision because he doesn't want another telling off.

Again Harry did decide it and not Hermione. She did only ask him. About her explaination he did again ask her opinion and not after her sympathy what he did get. She said that she didn't say that Cho was tactful. What do you expect that she make Cho bad tells him all things what is wrong with her? I promise you if she did so Harry did ask whats wrong with you, Hermione?! Not everyone need to love quiditch especially not if it make things worst and since Ron is in the team it is worst. After Hermione did tell him again off she did reach him. His very mind what let stop Harry to wander around in his dreams in this corridor. Nobody before could reach him in that case.

In chapter twenty nine Hermione's reactioon to Harry's plan to contact Sirius gets not only Harry but Ron as well not speaking to her. Not that their ignoring him stops her nagging at all, showing how well she's handling Harry. Of course she does switch to pleading later, which again has absolutely no impact on Harry's decision. So much for being able to keep him in check.

Again she did reach Harry because he did thought about to stop it but it was to late. He couldn´t stop it anymore.

And she really sets Harry off when she says she couldn't blame Umbridge for wanting to let Hagrid go. Some things are better left unsaid

She didn't mean it, right. She did say it and end with this argument.

In chapter thirty two, Hermione sets Harry off with a personal critique of his tendency for heroics. That was probably not the best way to broach the subject. She would have just better better off saying this was another trap and cutting it short. Not that she didn't make a serious effort not to set Harry off at this point, but her effort still fell a little short of her intentions. However she had one of her few successes at modifying Harry's behavior, getting him to check by fire to see if Sirius was in first.

He needed it more exactly and not just a its another trap. I can even imagine how strange he would look if she did just say that and think she is right. Maybe a little more explaination would be nice than.

[sone]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470645#post470645))
Having gone through book five, I'm desperately looking for any signs that Hermione has been able to deal with him at all without getting him angry, much less romantic tension.


I could have told you ahead of time that your search would have been fruitless. If anybody noticed, Harry was quite angry in this book. He snapped at almost at everyone. Telling him something he did not want, but needed to hear would always make him quite furious. Even Dumbledore could not escape this. No one should ever say that Hermione did not make him angry telling him something he did not want to but needed to hear, but she did make him listen. Hermione still to a certain extent is not aware of how she affects people. It is a flaw no doubt but no one said Hermione was perfect.

In any case, it is these arguments from Mutant for Hire, that tell me that Harry and Hermione are not "too much" alike which is one of the most popular reasons behind people who do not think they will become a couple. Because they're "too much" alike. They're a lot alike of course but they're not without their differences. While Harry was angry with Hermione, he never once hated or held a grudge against her for her advice nor did she hate or hold a grudge against him for his anger. The reason for this was because deep down, they both did not see malice or arrogance but concern and….love. Harry knew deep down that Hermione was only saying what she was saying was only out of concern and love for him. Hermione knew deep down that no matter how angry or quick tempered he was, that was still Harry and he still needed her even if he would not say it. He would still listen even if he was angry about it. This is why Harry’s voice a reason starts sounding like Hermione’s. On the front, he maybe furious, but deep down he knows she does this for his well being. Hermione did need to say these things just for the sake that they were right. It is never easy telling someone something they do not want to hear but need to hear all the same. For someone whose temper is always so close to the surface, this is especially difficult. Hermione never does it out of arrogance but out of love for Harry. Another thing Mutant for Hire’s post also says is just how much Hermione had to put up with and never once losing her temper for it but on the contrary defending him against everyone else. So often having to be the one to say what is right to Harry when Ron was too scared to say it himself or when Dumbledore wouldn’t say anything to him or even look at him or when his friends were just too furious at him really to say anything useful at all. For me, it only says how much Hermione really does love Harry.

[evaluna]

Quote: Gily Ann
“Ginny’s characterization:

Everything that it was flesh out about Ginny was there jkr didn’t invent anything. Perhaps we should go back and look for it. I find amusing that H/Hr shippers constantly say that H/G has a possibility but it’s small. Yet I have to see a H/Hr shipper (exept haycheng and she is a non-shipper) who says that h/g has the same possibility. Yet I have to see a h/hr who considers that jkr flesh out Ginny now because she was waiting for the right moment or simply because she perhaps has a clue that jkr doesn’t want us to know. If jkr said that she drop some clues because she dindn’t want readers to say that she cheated us. Couldn’t that apply to the h/g ship. I mean it became a bit clearer in this book that H/G is a possibility for many. Yet I haven’t seen one h/hr shipper who considers this.�

GA, as I said in my post, and I believe Ilyeki said something similar, I could see a mutual H/G crush since they are better friends now, though I believe it would be a step back for Ginny having gotten over him. Also, Harry would have to develop not only some feeling for her beyond moderate friendship and he would also have to begin to find her physically attractive. These pieces are not in place but of course JKR could do if she fancies in the next book. However I don’t see a deep love being credible between the two unless Ginny completely or mostly supercedes Hermione’s role in the book. Yet Harry needs Hermione, and she has many qualities that neither Harry nor Ginny possess. I personally also believe that Harry finding love -- not a crush -- is at the crux of the septology, and that the most viable love interest to date is Hermione, far and away. I’m not saying your ship isn’t possible, just much less likely and not at the same level, IMO. The connections just don’t exist and like everything else worth having in life, these things take time to be built. It's not that many don't see your position. They do; it's just that they see it differently and thus the debate.

BTW, great posts Ecthelion, FP, and sone!!!

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Ecthelion (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470714#post470714))
Mutant for Hire, well done! Now, to concede and dispute with it....

First off, what "ship" are you? Not that it matters but I'd like to know.

I thought I made it fairly clear from the conclusion that I do not think that Harry and Hermione would make a good couple.

Your right, there hardly was any place where Hermione successfully dealt with Harry's problems without getting him mad. One could say that Harry was always in a touchy mood, but looking at Hermione's responses, I think there may have been nicer ways to set the way straight. But then again, nobody else went to deal with him as much as her anyways, so she is to be appreciated because of it, despite her rather disputable ways of coping with it.

The fact of the matter is that Hermione could have done a lot more to persuade Harry. The fact that over the course of the book she's not showing Harry very much sympathy when he complains about his problems but mercilessly tells him where he went wrong or that he should try harder.

She's also way too forceful in telling Harry what to do and she simply tells him not to do something without even trying to find a way to help him accomplish his goals. Both the first time and the last time he tries to contact Sirius, she makes absolutely no effort to find a safe way to help him contact Sirius. She comes off as helpful with the DA and the Quibbler, but in both cases those were her ideas. When Harry wants something on his own, Hermione is proving herself a lot less helpful. If she doesn't like what he's trying, she simply tells him not to do it and doesn't do anything else.

Or does she? Admitingly, her techniques are rude and abrupt. But maybe that's how they should be. Why? Well, you say that Harry needed comfort and sympathy....well I am not sure that is entirely what he needs. Take a look where he get's some of the things you say he needs.

Hermione almost never gets results. Now admittedly, neither Ginny or Luna ever tried to stop Harry from doing something risky, and in Ginny's case, she was an accomplice. But the one time that Harry complains about a problem to Ginny, instead of telling him not to do it, she tries to find a way to help him. That makes a strong contrast to the previous time that Harry mentioned he was going to contact Sirius and got a flat out order not to do it by Hermione.

Despite all these warnings, Harry still does not do what Dumbledore has asked him to do, despite the honest and polite way Dumbledore did so.

Mainly because he's very ticked off at Dumbledore these days. Don't forget that Harry was very resentful of Dumbledore and wasn't going to him about his scar because he felt that the headmaster was for the most part avoiding him.

I am guessing that nice and comforting reprimands do not make a lasting impression on Harry, as is evident throughout the books. I am guessing that Hermione knows this or has just the disposition and characteristics to criticize and point out things in a rather rude way. Because I think that the warnings have to pierce the heart and hit Harry hard in order for him to take it seriously. Both of which Hermione's reprimends do, and therefore are worthy. Because as rude as they are, they are usually right. And despite the curt attitude of most of her comments in serious situations, Harry listens to them and takes them to mind, and is on a normal basis with her in a rather short time. Although he doesn't notice it but for some precious moments, subconsciencesly, he does notice Hermione's efforts, and as you said....

Actually, I don't think I said he ever really noticed her efforts. And the fact of the matter is that just about no one handles Harry well in the book. And for that matter, if nice and comforting words don't work, neither does Hermione's nagging. I kept throwing example after example of Hermione trying to be forceful and totally failing to get through to Harry. How can you say that her method works when there's absolutely zero evidence that it does?

Before you can say that Hermione is being forceful to Harry because its the only way that works, first you have to prove to me that her method actually works. So far it has shown almost no chance of actually succeeding. In fact she's got a marginally better success rate at pleading than being forceful.

That is true, though I think it might be more important whether or not Harry recognizes that Hermione's seemingly angular comments are from her heart, and that she really wants him to be safe. Which they are. But Harry has yet to acknowledge it, as well as some other emotion feelings he has yet to realize and comprehend. Sometimes he can be extraordinary dumb. Grr. :)

And then there's the fact that Hermione is so incredibly negative to him all the time that its hard for him to see that she cares. If she actually showed a little more sympathy and said a bit more, he might get the point. Frankly I think that Harry is perfectly justified from his end of things in missing her compassion. She's being far more harsh with him than she should be. In fact it is the harshness of her message that tends to put Harry off. Harry kept turning to Sirius in the book because at least Sirius was trying to be helpful to Harry.

The fact of the matter is that in book five, Harry and Hermione have a good deal of difficulty just getting along. That isn't a good sign for a relationship. And to say that the problem is that Harry is being dense is to ignore the fact that Hermione rarely shows any sympathy or compassion. She comes off as a stern taskmistress, not unlike Professor McGonagall. This apparent lack of sympathy on her part makes him angry. The fact is that for all she's good with the problems of others, she's very bad at seeing her own problems. If she's going to be his girlfriend, she's going to actually have to learn how to act nice on a regular basis rather than once a fortnight.

[lleyki]

Okay before I go into my whole analysis of why I think Hermione is better for Harry; let me respond to a few things. I don't like being misunderstood so let me clear this up immediately. Gilyann I never purported to say that Ginny didn't care AT ALL about what was going on. Of course she wanted to help out of genuine concern. My simple observation is that judging by her immediate scowl and rather petulant way of reacting to Harry and the others wanting to keep her behind; it gave off the impression of a little girl pouty over being left behind. Someone who wanted to prove that "look I can be brave too, I can be strong, etc." Again I don't hate her for it. Being the last child of a family of seven and the only girl, it makes sense. My simple point is that it didn't do much in making the character as appealing as Jk strove to do throughout the book(what with the boyfriends, Quidditch, etc.) That's all. Also I am not trying to stubbornly see H/Hr by saying that no amount of Quidditch together will convince me that Harry will switch his trust and sharing from Hermione to Ginny. It's not about shipping but the main problem I had with OOTP; that it would seem contrived.

Let me try to explain that better. The whole time I read Ron being Prefect I was literally rolling my eyes. The entire thing was completely contrived and stupid; as well as him winning the Cup. I mean honestly; with the exception of Angelina and one or two players; the entire team was in-experienced players. I bet that's why she didn't actually write it and chose instead to have Harry and Hermione go meet Grawp. Perhaps JK herself could not have written that entire thing realistically. I already believe that Ginny being on the team was contrived and her suddenly having Harry and Ginny become so close because of it will add to the convenience of it. Plus if Harry becomes distant with Hermione or continues to not listen to her when she says something, I don't know that I'll be able to continue reading the books. Again this is very little to do with shipping but simple literary criticism. The fact of the matter is above all else what we are meant to see through the seven books is Harry's development. The fact is he has done the not listening to Hermione thing more than once and ALL the time she was right. At what point does JK make the character grow and realize that what he feels and wants to do now is not always the right thing to do. Besides I am not quite convinced that Jk will go the way of Harry pulling away from Hermione for a few things. One, the whole him having the rational part of his brain sounding like her. It seems that while his conscious self is not willing to listen to her; his sub-conscious is. Re-interating my belief that while Harry may get upset at Hermione, he is not stupid and therefore knows when she is probably right about things. Two, the constant reference in the end that she was right and he should have listened to her. Am I to believe that after that kind of heart-breaking lesson in having to lose Sirius; Harry will continue on his road of not listening to Hermione? What is the boy just a glutton for punishment? I can see Harry becoming closer to Luna on a platonic level just because of the shared death experience. Plus we saw him hearing Hermione's voice telling him 'reckless' when he wanted to follow Dobby and he actually listened. For once he didn't try to talk himself into doing something anyway but made arguments for why the whole thing would indeed be reckless. If anything the road she seems to be taking is one of Harry FINALLY realizing that if Hermione says this is wrong or not smart she's probably right or at least has legitimate reasons to think it.

Btw, yes Gilyann; Harry's heart started lightening after Ginny said the reasons why Voldemort couldn't have possessed him. However he was still doubtful and afraid to be hopeful. He was completely convinced when Hermione patiently reminded him that one cannot apparate or disapparte out of Hogwarts and Ron cemented it by telling him that he was in his bed the whole time. It was the combination of all three of them. It amuses me that you get so miffed by persons saying that Hermione got Harry out of the room and consequently his mood; even though whatever the figurative meaning may have been she was the one who LITERALLY got him out of the room. Yet, you would actually say that it was Ginny in that scene who made Harry feel better. The moment Harry entered that room with those three kids they ALL helped in some small way. My problem with this scene as I said wasn't about who did or didn't make Harry feel better. My feeling was and continues to be that Harry had very little sympathy or compassion towards Ginny here. Besides even forgetting the fact in the first place, his reaction to hearing her talk of something that traumatic to her was "oh great I'm not possessed." I'm not saying he should not have been happy or that he had to hold her hands during the whole thing but a simple statement of "Harry knew it was hard for Ginny to talk about the events in the Chamber but he couldn't help feeling slightly hopeful that he wasn't being possessed." Simple but it would give a complete change to the feel of the scene, especially between Harry and Ginny. Btw, persons could argue that in that moment Harry was extremely pre-occupied so his not remembering Ginny was possessed means nothing. Fair enough. However something else that occured to me is the meeting at Hogshead. When the student brings up Harry's killing the basilisk Jk could have inserted a quick glance between Harry and Ginny. It would have sufficiently set up her talking about the possession later on because there would be that flash of memory between the two. A simple mention of Ginny catching Harry's eyes or vice-versa etc. would serve a good few purposes. One in particular being that there is this unspoken connection between the two. As much as Ginny was personally affected by Voldemort as was Harry; I have never felt a connection between the two because of it. It always seemed like he saved her and that was it; almost like when he saved Fleur's sister. A case of just helping someone who was in danger and nothing more and as Turambar mentioned that is cemented in his 'your sister" statement to Ron. I thought they had gotten so much closer in this book so why is she still referred to as Ron's sister? If the point was to adddress Ron he could have still used her name; informing Ron that it wasn't a problem when he was saving Ginny. I'm sure Ron would have responded just as he did. Therefore the scene would remain as is with a significant difference.

Okay Hermione as a partner for Harry. Okay so everyone says Hermione makes Harry upset, she actually annoys him. However I don't think I read the books incorrectly when deducing that Hermione only angers Harry when she is telling him what he DOES NOT want to hear. Plus at the start of the book Harry was snippy and angry with ALOT of people; not just Hermoine; so I paid little mind to his responses to her at those times. Judging by some persons views the consensus is that Hermione just simply DOES NOT get Harry and angers him; period. That is NOT true. I maintain as I always have that Harry gets annoyed with Hermione when she says what he doesn't want to hear and most times knows is right. With those exceptions Hermione is not some annoyance to Harry like persons seem to think.

When Harry is having his little tantrum when Hermione suggests the DA, she is able to calm him down by saying Volemort's name. That was NOT easy for her considering how she stammered the first couple of times doing it but she did it and that meant alot to Harry. Speaking of the DA; persons make little deal of it but the fact is Harry got immense pride and joy out of that group. Persons will chose to concentrate on Harry's initial gripe about the group but will completely ignore the complete calm and joy Harry got from the whole experience. The entire thing which was again HERMIONE's plan; all hers.

Hermione made Harry feel better through Rita. Persons believed him more, less kids were watching him strangely; things did get almost normal for him again. That again was ALL Hermione. Hermione was supportive to Harry to the point of even helping with Cho. He liked Cho so she tried to help him understand where the girl was coming from. Hermione was being quite supportive and for someone who doesn't really like to talk to this girl Harry was sharing quite alot here. Honestly I was quite surprised Harry was this open with Hermione about something like this. I half expected him to tell her his date went fine and leave it at that.

Hermione also continues to very much impress Harry with her intelligence. He immediately picked up about the coins and surprisingly didn't feel weirded out about her using something reminiscent of Voldemort. If anything he amusingly noted that her way was better. Hermione did make Harry feel better when he was worried about Umbridge possibly being controlled by Voldemort like Quirrel. She was calm and rational and made him calm down. Harry gets so annoyed by Hermione but his instincts whenever worried is to immediately tell Ron and Hermione.

Something else that stood out to me is Harry's reaction to SPEW. If Hermione was really annoying Harry often; he would be like Ron everytime she brought up SPEW. If anything Harry made many references to Hermione and SPEW in the books but never with mockery or annoyance. It was always in the sense of how Hermione would feel if she saw this of a house-elf or how her face was glowing as much as when she spoke of SPEW. Also one of the arguments noted before OOTP was always how Hermione's voice sounded to Harry as shrilly, panicky, etc. It is something to note that BOTH times Harry refers to Hermione's voice in his mind there is NO mention of shrilly or any other adjective persons perceive as annoyance. In fact the only thing we get is he heard her voice in a whispered way. Actually if anything the image created from that was a rather romantic one.

Hermione is the person aware of Harry's scar hurting him at Grimmauld Place. She is the one who is aware of the significance of Malfoy's words. One could argue that the others weren't listening; but it says something that neither Ron or Ginny for all their closeness to Harry and Hermione didn't notice them looking tense and uncomfortable; to pick up that something was wrong.

A few other things to comment on about Hermione. Gilyann I have to really disagree with your attitude on Hermione explaining Ron's side to Harry in GOF. Your attitude of who cares about Ron baffles me. Even if I might be one who believes Hermione has feelings for Harry I am of the opinion too that first and foremost though; these kids are friends. To be rather corny "one for all and all for one" if you will. Silly crushes, developing romantic feelings, etc. aside there is a real, honest and deep friendship between those three kids and to say why would Hermione care about Ron's feelings is rather surprising to me. I have always been of the mind that the first step to fixing a problem is to understand where each other is coming from because it's through understanding we get healing. As far as you're saying since Hermione likes Harry more than Ron; she should have been doing what? Saying "Harry you're right, Ron is totally unfair to you", etc? To accomplish what, except furthering the wedge between the two boys. Harry really completely and honestly had NO clue why Ron was acting the way he was. Incidentally Hermione DIDNOT jump up defending Ron to Harry. Hermione was more concerned with Harry. She brought him breakfast, listened to him talk about what exactly happened and immediately went into his having to write to Sirius and being careful speech. Harry was the one who brought up Ron which led her to explain Ron's stance. Btw, your question of what she could have said to Ron in defending Harry. Well how about "Ron, Harry would never lie to you or do that. When has Harry ever kept something from you, etc." You get my point. She could very well have been defending Harry to Ron. The fact is Hermione was trying to get her friends to mend their friendship and to question her loyalty or understanding of Harry simply because she sought to make him understand why Ron was acting as he was is a little silly to me.

Okay is Hermione perfect? Of course not. Is Hermione bossy and pushy at times? Of course she is. Just as Ron can be insensitive at times as Harry can be too stubborn at times. Does Hermione have a fear of failure? I'm sure she does. It might have to do with being technically outsider and also female. I can understand that. Trust me try being black and a woman. It's a double-edged sword. I too have an almost obsession about succeeding. That said Hermione is not the awful, insensitive character that many posters would like to believe she is. Hermione whether or not persons like her DOES understand Harry. I'm sorry but someone does not be as smart and intuitive as Hermione, spend five years of such intimate friendship with someone and not understand him. Yes Hermione told about the Firebolt(Lord will we ever get past this) but it's probably because she DID know Harry. She KNEW that whether or not she shared her fears; he would convince himself(along with Ron egging him on) that she was just being dramatic and ride it anyway. So she made a decision that would make him mad but keep him safe. I know some persons and I will never see this the same but to me Hermione showed immense strength and maturity there. How easy would it have been to just bend because he would be so convincing. Almost like how she gave in when he came into Hogsmeade without permission; despite her objections.

Hermione knows Harry well enough to know when he will do something risky just because it's in his nature. She understands him enough to know that he very much would make himself feel guilty about Sirius about having to go back to school. Hermione was the one who warned DD that leaving Harry so long at the Dursleys without any information would be possibly dangerous because he would get frustrated and possibly do something stupid and crazy. He nearly almost did a couple of times and he was furious with them as she expected him to be. Hermione was patient enough with Harry's anger to very calmly inform him to stop yelling at her but never getting angry herself or defensive because she understood where it was coming from.

She was aware enough of how much he hated feeling helpless and that his constant outbursts in class, leading to Detention wasn't helping so she created the DA. Harry's one source of peace and enjoyment for awile. Hermione's presence continues to be central in Harry's life. From his hearing her voice in his mind to memories of simple things happened years ago to his sudden need to not be a failure in his eyes. We saw that in the scene after the Prefects were announced and when his immediate thought in hearing about T's is that he would have to work harder because it would be really hard hiding from her he had failed. If Harry ignores Hermione as some believe; why would he care so much?

Hermione is to me a full-rounded female in Harry's life. She can be his equal partner in danger. We see it in her fighting at DOM right alongside him before she is hit, thinking to mark the doors, steering them away from the veil, etc. She is right there along with Harry leading the charge. She can be his voice of conscience and reason as Harry mentions and even with her stopping him from hurting a baby, even if it was a DE. Again she maintains that balance of what is right versus what is easy. She is not afraid to face his wrath if it means saving him. She will fight with and for him. She may be slightly intimidated by him but she will never back down from him. Through all that she is not above being the damsel to him at times and being feminine. We see it in her constantly grabbing him, her actually whimpering behind his shoulder. Hermione almost never shows such weakness unless it's with Harry. Hermione may not LOVE Quidditch but she will support him wholeheartedly. I don't think I need to show the MANY examples of this. I'd say just read all the books to see this. So again I am saying H/Hr is a done deal? No because this is still JK's vision. However I have YET to see that Ginny is better partner for Harry than Hermione and ONE book of some development is not about to change that.

[Ecthelion]

In regards to Mutant for Hire's reply to my reply:

I thought I made it fairly clear from the conclusion that I do not think that Harry and Hermione would make a good couple.

As a matter of fact, you did make that quite clear :) But which one would pick, if any at all....Hr/R, H/G, N/G ect ect.

She's also way too forceful in telling Harry what to do and she simply tells him not to do something without even trying to find a way to help him accomplish his goals. Both the first time and the last time he tries to contact Sirius, she makes absolutely no effort to find a safe way to help him contact Sirius. She comes off as helpful with the DA and the Quibbler, but in both cases those were her ideas. When Harry wants something on his own, Hermione is proving herself a lot less helpful. If she doesn't like what he's trying, she simply tells him not to do it and doesn't do anything else.

Well, I think some of the time, she was telling him not do anything, so there really wasn't a goal to be accomplished. However, on the Sirius issue you brought up, I don't think that she had the whole idea of why Harry wanted to talk to Sirius about his dad. So when Harry suggested the initial idea, it would obviously sound quite ludicrus (sp?). So naturally I think she tried to stop Harry from doing so, in the ignorance of thinking that Harry just wanted to talk to Sirius for any 'ol reason. Plus, as usual, she was stopping him for his welfare, so he wouldn't get expelled. As rude and persistant as she was, it was still for a good reason. And the last attempt, doesn't she help formulate the plan that get's Harry talking to Kreacher? I don't know for sure, but I think she helped him there.

Hermione almost never gets results. Now admittedly, neither Ginny or Luna ever tried to stop Harry from doing something risky, and in Ginny's case, she was an accomplice. But the one time that Harry complains about a problem to Ginny, instead of telling him not to do it, she tries to find a way to help him. That makes a strong contrast to the previous time that Harry mentioned he was going to contact Sirius and got a flat out order not to do it by Hermione.

First part, I agree. However, the ginny part, I admit, is interesting. True, she handles this precarious situation, most likely, much better than Hermione would have. However, that carelessness and disregard to danger that Ginny let surface in helping Harry at that point could be dangerous in other times. Sometimes the acute intellect that Hermione harbors is needed, as shown in other situations where it saved their lives. If you put Ginny in those situations where Hermione was, I don't think they would have made it. Now, this really doesn't mean that because of this, Harry and Hermione should get together, it's just another reason as to why they need each other more than anybody else.

Mainly because he's very ticked off at Dumbledore these days. Don't forget that Harry was very resentful of Dumbledore and wasn't going to him about his scar because he felt that the headmaster was for the most part avoiding him.

Understood. But at the time, we see no evidence of him surfacing any anger or disregard to Dumbledore at the time. Remember, at the time, Dumbledore had just successfully saved Harry being expelled and being layed open to the malice of the Ministry. Harry knew that.


and as you said....

Actually, I don't think I said he ever really noticed her efforts.

I was relating to the quote ahead of that passage, not the words before it :)

And then there's the fact that Hermione is so incredibly negative to him all the time that its hard for him to see that she cares.

I sort of explained that problem by describing what Harry listens to and what he does not. It was in the last post of mine.

The fact of the matter is that in book five, Harry and Hermione have a good deal of difficulty just getting along. That isn't a good sign for a relationship.

Hmm. You are right on them having difficulty getting along in the fifth book. But I think I disagree with the second part there though, possibly. The fact that they got through it without any major fight or breakup is a plus to me, and a further strenghthening of their ties. I think Harry will eventually notice all her efforts and get past the sting that they usually carry with her when she is cautioning him. However, that is pure speculation, and we won't find out for sure how he is going to react to this particular subject till the sixth book comes out. Only 2 years....

EDIT: Lleki, great post as usual! :clappy:

[FlyingPhoenix]

About this DA a good point by you lleyki. Thats something whats very important. Its written at christmas that without the DA Harry wouldn't go back to hogwarts.

the DA is that only thing through the year what keep Harry going though he didn´t thought about it and didn´t want believe Hermione. How often did he mention its her idea? Do you believe if he think about DA he don`t connect it with Hermione. This things which Hermione do are much more succesfully as Ginnys little scene about Voldemort isn't possesing him. First the DA what give Harry happiness through this time than the article. After that Harry can nearly life a normal life again. He can go around without be watched as if he is mad. Thats what Hermione did. Its very different to Ginny. By Ginny was it only just a moment of a lighter heart but by this two things were it months. You can be sure without this two things Harry wouldn't get through this year like he did and that is a fact.

[Daveydee]

Excellent post Mutant.

Just wanted to pick up on one very important phrase in your post.

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470645#post470645))

Even if Rowling has Hermione interested in Harry (and there's some very mixed data on that, as frankly there are more signs of emotional warmth by Hermione towards Ron rather than Harry), the fact of the matter is that she's starting off worse than Ginny and Luna, who Harry is not conditioned to expect criticism from. And she clearly has no idea of how to make Harry happy, with the world or with her, or at least to ease his pain and sense of burden.

Emotional warmth

This is the key expression.

Whatever moments (and I won't be churlish, they do have moments) Harry and Hermione have throughout not only OotP, but all the books, those moments lack the emotional warmth of the sort of relationship (however fiery or volatile) that Hermione enjoys with Ron.

Those moments are generally borne out of neccessity rather than desire on the part of either Harry or Hermione. They are clinical and business orientated, with no signs of any repetition of such moments when the focus is not on the major task in hand. In other words, in moments of relaxation or enjoyment, when emotions are levelled and not adversely influenced by moments of crisis.

The central plank of the H/Hr ship is the recognition that given their respective qualities Harry and Hermione need each other for, if nothing else, Harry's mere survival. And I see merit in this philosophy. But strip away the embellishments and you will find that all relationships need to be born from a fundamental desire rather than a mutually recognised need, lest it becomes a 'marriage of convenience'.

[AvadaKedavra]

Whew.

I don't have a clue what's happened- all I have done is been away for a couple of days and come back to a "newish" thread, with a different topic of debating- Hermione or Ginny? :(

Hi to everyone, and great posts everyone! :clappy:

To answer the question posed a few pages back- will Dean and Ginny last? Not a chance. I don't think they are even serious.

There is simply too much to respond, but Mutant for Hire and Gily Ann are doing a fantastic job and my responses would only mainly re-iterate what they are saying anyway. :D

I would like to point something out that I cannot envisage, that I cannot see happening, or otherwise that I cannot see how JKR would do it. The something is-

How will JKR put Harry and Hermione together, but write it in the way that it will not detract too much from the main story?

What I mean by this is, if Hermione was with Harry, and she is always in Harry's face and always there, as agreed by all, then Harry's girlfriend would always be there. Now, if the girlfriend was always there, the romance might be TOO BIG , and it would prove detractory from the story-i.e. the focus would shift onto the romance, and not the progression of the plot. Many characters would be shifted out of the picture totally- and a likely candidate is Ron.

That's all for now, folks :D

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT:

An excellent post by Davydee on his perception of emotional warmth . I have to say that I absolutely agree. Ron and Hermione have plenty of those moments, and if anyone wants to dispute, I'd be more than happy to put up a few of those moments taken from Ootp alone- (which I consider to be the strengthening of R/Hr foundation).

:D

Oh, I forgot. *a over-due back slap for Davydee. :p

[evaluna]

Ilyeki, very, very well put. GREAT defense of Hermione and of Harry's reactions toward her. I'm sure you'll be hearing from 00Hawk again soon...

[haycheng]

To everyone (Gile Ann, I am a he, not a she :lol:)
I believe while Hermione is always in Harry's interest, she is also bothering him a great deal throughout the books. I do not mind that much about they yell at each other, at least they get the job done. What I found bothersome is that Harry have tried to avoid Hermione or decided not to tell Hermione certain things. THis is indeed no health for a relationship. In a way, Hermione is too "motherly", and Harry decided he has enough "motherly" nagging. None can decline their bond but automatic assume the bond wil turn into romantic is fault. Their bond can certainly have potential to turn into romantic but it could be somethering else.

On Ginny part, she is certainly more reckless then Hermione. How much reckless, I am not sure. There are simply not much evident to get a clear view of his personality. All we can say is that she and Harry are far from being good friend, let alone couple. She does have the fexibility though as a new character.

right and wrong, do harry really need hermione to see logic?
The character has taken a big turn after the OFTP. some assume he wil be more open to opinion and accept Hermione more. Therefore, their relationship will improve. However, have anyone consider that Harry can look after himself? He is not dumb, he sense something is wrong about Sirus through the year. He simply can not accept it. Just as he can not accept Hagrid may not be a great teacher. The idea that Harry always require Hermione is kind of overdone. I can see him become more accepting Hermione's logic in the future. Or simply accepting the Hermione in his head and take the matter in his own hand.
It is very interesting that Harry is very happy when Hermione do not critize him, and instead sympathetic. If indead Harry can look after himself and use his brain, what he need most will no longer logic but sympathetic. Hermione has proved her lack and strenght in this department but ginny has not.

[sone]

Originally posted by haycheng (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470982#post470982))
To everyone (Gile Ann, I am a he, not a she :lol:)
The character has taken a big turn after the OFTP. some assume he wil be more open to opinion and accept Hermione more. Therefore, their relationship will improve. However, have anyone consider that Harry can look after himself? He is not dumb, he sense something is wrong about Sirus through the year. He simply can not accept it. Just as he can not accept Hagrid may not be a great teacher. The idea that Harry always require Hermione is kind of overdone.


Not in this case. You have to remember, Harry has a lot of people against him. The MoM, Umbridge, the students, the Daily Prophet and Voldemort. Hermione had not only stood up for Harry but helped him in ways none of the others did. He did need Hermione that much. He is already open to Hermione's opinion even if he does not want to hear it. One of the reasons he even improved upon his studies in the first place was so Hermione would think better of him.

[FlyingPhoenix]

How will JKR put Harry and Hermione together, but write it in the way that it will not detract too much from the main story?

Pretty simple. Because JKR don`t need in that case bring Hermione more into canon not more as in OotP or GoF. That say it would be only different between Harry and Hermione. Nothing more.
By Harry and Ginny JKR need to develop Ginny part a big deal. Make it nearly so big like Hermiones. In that case someone from this trio would lose. Ron or Hermione. My guess it would be Ron. How I did say before OotP if JKR want develop a 4th character she need to cut another character and I did guess it will be Ron and at the end was it Ron. His part was much more smaller as before and its because of Ginny. And How I said before in this thread Ginnys part is everytime replaceable with Ron. She isn't IMO not the best development character JKR didn't write her unic. She didn't give her a place where I could say nobody could do it like Ginny did it. Off course I like this character but in the same time she fall under Lunas bright light. Though Luna has much more a smaller part. Thats IMO the main problem. Ginny don't put out isn't someone who could say she is unic she is just a weasley. Its even important that Ginny comes in play in a book where the twins vanish from Hogwarts.

If JKR did want bring Ginny character in play because of Harry than I would expect she did develop Ginny in GoF and not in OotP. The different would be that still her brothers are there and she would get attention by Harry and not just because some Weasleys left the school. Thats what in book 6 will happening. Ginnys development has something to do that the twins aren't anymore around in Hogwarts that say there is enough space for Ginny and Luna. Though Luna will still overshadow Ginny.

[NorwegianGirl63]

I doubt Dean and Ginny will last. I think maybe Harry will go out with Ginny at some point.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Daveydee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470945#post470945))
Emotional warmth

This is the key expression.

Whatever moments (and I won't be churlish, they do have moments) Harry and Hermione have throughout not only OotP, but all the books, those moments lack the emotional warmth of the sort of relationship (however fiery or volatile) that Hermione enjoys with Ron.

Those moments are generally borne out of neccessity rather than desire on the part of either Harry or Hermione. They are clinical and business orientated, with no signs of any repetition of such moments when the focus is not on the major task in hand. In other words, in moments of relaxation or enjoyment, when emotions are levelled and not adversely influenced by moments of crisis.

Practical is the word that I would use to describe most of the Harry and Hermione interactions. Hermione is trying to be practical the whole length of the book, not sympathetic. She's not so much sympathetic about the occlumency training, she's practical about it. About most of Harry's problems, she tends to take a very practical level. And because there's so little sympathy, Harry ends up anything from guilty to irritated to angry and not speaking to her.

Hermione's warmest scenes in the book are with Ron. To my mind one of the more significant scenes in the development of what is going on between Ron and Hermione is in that scene where Ron throws Percy's letter into the fire. Hermione looks at Ron with a very odd expression on her face, which tends to suggest the fact that something new or different is running through Hermione's mind at that point, something different from the way she usually acts or thinks. And when Ron thanks her, instead of acting snooty or superior, she acts amused. While it is possible that Ron's essay needed more work, we really don't know. We do know that she put a lot more work into it, practically wrote it for him.

And while it is debatable whether or not Hermione kissed Harry before the Quidditch match, it is quite clear that even if she did, she went to Ron first and giave him the first kiss. In that situation, Ron did place first over Harry. How significant that was is debatable. And unlike when Harry comes to her with problems, when Ron has problems with being Keeper, she's more sympathetic and tries to bolster his feelings. Of course Ron's problems are trivial to Harry's, but still, there's no reason for her to be any less practical in her response to Ron, and yet she does come out a good deal warmer.

I was convinced of Ron and Hermione, until I saw scenes where Hermione seemd to show something resembling interest in Ron. Now that I've been looking at the emotional angle more closely and what happens in various scenes, I'm starting to swing away. Hermione in book five is as far as I can see closer emotionally to Ron than Harry.

Another small slip is when Hermione considers Ron worse than Harry when it comes to acting around girls in a romantic fashion. The question is why Hermione has come to that particular opinion. Especially when the only girl that Ron ever spends any time around off the Quidditch field is Hermione. It could be because of the Tornado scene between Ron and Cho, but that doesn't quite seem right.

Hermione clearly is more impressed by Harry and respects him more. There wasn't any mention of disappointment in the scene where Harry is not named a prefect. The term Rowling used to describe Hermione's state was 'thoroughly bewilderedt' which means that she was simply confused. She didn't understand why it went to Ron instead of Harry, and Hermione likes to understand things.

The strongest two points are when Hermione is disappointed that he doesn't agree to help her knit elf hats, and when she likes Harry's gift to her more than Ron's. People can read a lot into that, but I tend to prefer the more simple and direct view that if Hermione is showing a lot more sympathy and warmth to Ron than Harry, in the end she's more interested in Ron than Harry.

The central plank of the H/Hr ship is the recognition that given their respective qualities Harry and Hermione need each other for, if nothing else, Harry's mere survival. And I see merit in this philosophy. But strip away the embellishments and you will find that all relationships need to be born from a fundamental desire rather than a mutually recognised need, lest it becomes a 'marriage of convenience'.

Nicely put. Hermione is a good ally for Harry, a good advisor, but one doesn't have to have a girlfriend as one's advisor. In some ways, the two positions are really at odds. It's easier if Harry's advisor is not his girlfriend. The fact of the matter is that reduces the chance that emotional and intellectual issues will get entangled. It's better that Hermione not be so close to Harry, be a little more objective about Harry's situation. Harry does not need an advisor who lets her personal feelings about him potentially cloud her judgement. Friendship is good, that's the right balance of closeness and distance.

[Ecthelion]

Daveydee and Mutant for Hire, you both bring up excellent points. It's always interesting to debate with you.

Alright, I don't have much time but I'd like to address something. For one, you are right about a lot of the warm moments being with Ron instead of Harry. However, it is customarily easier to have a warm moment with a humourous and generally layed back person such as Ron rather that a person who has had his parents killed, grown up with nasty relatives, picked on by a professor incessantly, has seen his best friends sister near death, forced to relive horrible memories from dementors, isolated by an entire school on many occasions, has seen a close compatriot die right in front of him, and has the most feared Dark wizard seeking his life. Regrettably, these things have a direct consequence on one's over all disposition. I mean who can blame Harry for being unsociable at times and relatively reclusive! His mind always is pre-occopied with things that are generally considered for older wizards and witches. And some of the issues that plague Harry's mind aren't fit for anyone, let alone a 15 year old boy! As expected, these thoughts have a detrimental affect on him. So naturally, it would be quite hard to have a "warm moment" with him, and as is evident, there aren't many of them.

[Hawk 92]

Practical is the word that I would use to describe most of the Harry and Hermione interactions. Hermione is trying to be practical the whole length of the book, not sympathetic. She's not so much sympathetic about the occlumency training, she's practical about it. About most of Harry's problems, she tends to take a very practical level. And because there's so little sympathy, Harry ends up anything from guilty to irritated to angry and not speaking to her.

Combative. Is how I describe Hr/R and most of their interactions. The interesting part is that you claim that Harry has all of these negative feelings and that is a minus. But when Ron and Hermione fight and Ron or Hermione storms off. Or Ron makes Hermione cry, or they don't talk to each other for a while this is a plus to you. In short Hermione is practical and she approaches both Harry and Ron the same way. But you say that for Hr/R this is a plus and for H/Hr this is a minus. Even though the outcome is the same for both guys from Hermione. And we can go the whole way back to PS/SS to show that this has happened for Hr/R more often and consistantly.


Hermione's warmest scenes in the book are with Ron. To my mind one of the more significant scenes in the development of what is going on between Ron and Hermione is in that scene where Ron throws Percy's letter into the fire. Hermione looks at Ron with a very odd expression on her face, which tends to suggest the fact that something new or different is running through Hermione's mind at that point, something different from the way she usually acts or thinks. And when Ron thanks her, instead of acting snooty or superior, she acts amused. While it is possible that Ron's essay needed more work, we really don't know. We do know that she put a lot more work into it, practically wrote it for him.

The central plank of the H/Hr ship is the recognition that given their respective qualities Harry and Hermione need each other for, if nothing else, Harry's mere survival. And I see merit in this philosophy. But strip away the embellishments and you will find that all relationships need to be born from a fundamental desire rather than a mutually recognised need, lest it becomes a 'marriage of convenience'.

Now let me point to the top quote and state that all of your moments come because of outside influences. The letter from Percy seems to be the main one. In short Hermione feeling sympathy for Ron. So if I take out that central plank then you have no moment. And if we remove the sympathy plank then there are no Hr/R moments in all of OotP.

And while it is debatable whether or not Hermione kissed Harry before the Quidditch match, it is quite clear that even if she did, she went to Ron first and giave him the first kiss. In that situation, Ron did place first over Harry. How significant that was is debatable. And unlike when Harry comes to her with problems, when Ron has problems with being Keeper, she's more sympathetic and tries to bolster his feelings. Of course Ron's problems are trivial to Harry's, but still, there's no reason for her to be any less practical in her response to Ron, and yet she does come out a good deal warmer.

Here you use practical to establish a Hr/R moment which contradicts the first part of your post.

Another small slip is when Hermione considers Ron worse than Harry when it comes to acting around girls in a romantic fashion. The question is why Hermione has come to that particular opinion. Especially when the only girl that Ron ever spends any time around off the Quidditch field is Hermione. It could be because of the Tornado scene between Ron and Cho, but that doesn't quite seem right.

Here you omit the Post Kiss Scene which happened before this scene and in which Hermione told Ron that he had the emotional depth of a teaspoon. So there is a scene to consider and one that gave us a very good look at Ron's understanding of women.

The strongest two points are when Hermione is disappointed that he doesn't agree to help her knit elf hats, and when she likes Harry's gift to her more than Ron's. People can read a lot into that, but I tend to prefer the more simple and direct view that if Hermione is showing a lot more sympathy and warmth to Ron than Harry, in the end she's more interested in Ron than Harry.

Sorry. On my posts about the Christmas gifts I stand. I didn't read anything into it at all. I merely looked at the grammer.

Now here's what is truly interesting. The Hr/R shippers and the H/G shippers have built this theory that Hermione didn't like Sirius. Maybe their right. So then if Hermione doesn't like Sirius why does she help Harry. Why does she go on the rescue mission. Its obviously not for Sirus so it must be for Harry.

Cheers!

[FlyingPhoenix]

I don´t want be daft but isn´t it curiouse that OotP and GoF slightly oposite to each other? I mean only from that what between the trio is happening in this two books. In GoF H/Hr seems to be well more warm to each other and in OotP is it R/Hr how you say, but I don´t see it like that.

Harry is general to nobody warm maybe to Luna but who else? Nobody, so there can´t be so many warm emotions between this two.

If you might recognise it that this book is mainly about pain as anything else than where should I get a warm feeling? All what is in there is pain even between H/C is pain.

Alright I agree with you this moment as Hermione did look at Ron oddly was warm. But I do think that this is because Ron did in this moment take Harry more important as his own brother. Sometimes I get that feeling we forget this tiny little fact that this is a big deal. Even if Percy is the last loved brother and even it was to see he would just act like that he is after all he is Rons brother. Someone who is much closer to him as Harry is it normaly. Though Ron chose Harry, chose Harrys word and not that from his brother. Someone who he knows since the day he was born. So I do expect that Hermione look how she look because I do think for her is family very very important.

Now why I do think so because how Hermione is for Griffindor and I take McGonagall by word if she say this house will be your family. Hermione fights like a lion for griffindor thats how I see her acting in PS/SS as she demint that Harry is selfish to risk points of Griffindor.

About sympathic by Hermione. Thats kinda difficult because this one is speculation why she is not that sympathic with Harry like in GoF or in other books. Its in someways easy. If we do remind, something else what we might forget, that in this book Voldemort is truely back. Nobody knows what will happen. But one thing is clear for Hermione he will be after Harry. We did saw how scary and emotional she was as Harrys live was in danger. Now its more there as ever before. Something could happen someone could do to him, someone could trap him. All this stuff could happen. That say theres kinda pressure there what grows very high as Dumbledore is away. Hermione did say as long Dumbledore is around as long is Harry save. Now he isn't around. What do you beliebe what fears you get if your best friend has funny dreams which you think are controlled by Voldemort? You nagge you annoy nearly plead that he do this extra lessons with Snape. And I´m more sure you don´t wouldn`t sound warm or sympathic. Because you want it so much that he do it just because it could be real Voldemort. It could be Voldemort who had a chance to get Harry now were Dumbledore is away. Now is it only by you to save him to say this unpleasent things straight out. Because there isn´t a Dumbledore, no McGonagal nobody who you think is quiet right to ask. Its only her only Hermione who can hold Harry back. Have you any imagination what pressure that is? And you still want tell me she should be sympathic or warm? Whee thats hug, or? Its like a teenager have to decide if you live or die.

By Ron was it just like it was not dangerous not about his live and nothing what fright the hell out of her. That is how it is. We did see how emotional and yeah warm if not very warm react as she saw Harry the first day again, this hug there where all her emotion in it, all her worry and all her joy to see him healthy. Or as he wasn`t expeled she was shaking thats a quiet well reaction.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Hawk 92 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471269#post471269))
Combative. Is how I describe Hr/R and most of their interactions. The interesting part is that you claim that Harry has all of these negative feelings and that is a minus. But when Ron and Hermione fight and Ron or Hermione storms off. Or Ron makes Hermione cry, or they don't talk to each other for a while this is a plus to you. In short Hermione is practical and she approaches both Harry and Ron the same way. But you say that for Hr/R this is a plus and for H/Hr this is a minus. Even though the outcome is the same for both guys from Hermione. And we can go the whole way back to PS/SS to show that this has happened for Hr/R more often and consistantly.

Could you sight the examples where their squabbling leads to Hermione going off crying or they don't talk to one another a while? It's actually very rare for their squabbling to lead to a falling out, even temporarily. Book five references please. Book four references may do, but as that's the book where I think Ron and Harry finally noticed Hermione was a girl I don't really view anything before that as significant.

Now let me point to the top quote and state that all of your moments come because of outside influences. The letter from Percy seems to be the main one. In short Hermione feeling sympathy for Ron. So if I take out that central plank then you have no moment. And if we remove the sympathy plank then there are no Hr/R moments in all of OotP.

I don't think it was outside influence in the scene with Percy's letter. It was Hermione reacting to what Ron was doing with the letter. So there's absolutely no reason that I see to take out that plank. Hermione definitely reacted to Ron, to what Ron was doing at that point.

Here you use practical to establish a Hr/R moment which contradicts the first part of your post.

Read the paragraph closely. I said that Hermione wasn't practical, she was sympathetic to Ron and trying to deal with him more sympathetically, which translates to more emotionally.

Here you omit the Post Kiss Scene which happened before this scene and in which Hermione told Ron that he had the emotional depth of a teaspoon. So there is a scene to consider and one that gave us a very good look at Ron's understanding of women.

It does hint at some frustration that Hermione has in Ron's direction, as does the comment in the post-Valentine scene that Harry is almost as bad as Ron. Again, I tend to get the impression there are scenes that we are miissing because the book is written from Harry's POV. Ron and Hermione have spent a lot of time together as prefects, presumably being alone together. While we have no idea of what is going on then, some of Hermione's actions do not seem to be the result of any Ron and Hermione scenes that take place in front of Harry.

Now here's what is truly interesting. The Hr/R shippers and the H/G shippers have built this theory that Hermione didn't like Sirius. Maybe their right. So then if Hermione doesn't like Sirius why does she help Harry. Why does she go on the rescue mission. Its obviously not for Sirus so it must be for Harry.

Actually, I never said that Hermione didn't like Sirius. Actually there's no evidence that she does, actually. She mainly questions his judgement periodically. As fior the rest of it, if you're ascribing special motives to Hermione, what about Luna, who has absolutely no special feelings for Sirius at all? Or any of the others? They did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. Hermione's main worry was that it was a trap, not that Sirius did not deserve to be rescued. I don't see Hermione being that callous, ever. Ron and Neville followed Harry in and I'm pretty confident they don't have any romantic interest in Harry.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Actually, I never said that Hermione didn't like Sirius. Actually there's no evidence that she does, actually. She mainly questions his judgement periodically. As fior the rest of it, if you're ascribing special motives to Hermione, what about Luna, who has absolutely no special feelings for Sirius at all? Or any of the others? They did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. Hermione's main worry was that it was a trap, not that Sirius did not deserve to be rescued. I don't see Hermione being that callous, ever. Ron and Neville followed Harry in and I'm pretty confident they don't have any romantic interest in Harry. But they didn`t it with doubts. Hermione did follow Harry with doubts and thats important. Yeah there is slightly a point where I got the idea she do like Sirius because she know he was very long alone it kinda sorry for that. Not Harry did say it and not Ron did say it , it was Hermione who say it how it was. She did get it that Sirius was very alone that implied in his very heart alone. If she didn´t like him she wouldn´t say that not once. She wouldn´t admint this that Sirius feels like that. She critisim Sirius almost like Harry.

[Hawk 92]

Actually, I never said that Hermione didn't like Sirius. Actually there's no evidence that she does, actually. She mainly questions his judgement periodically. As fior the rest of it, if you're ascribing special motives to Hermione, what about Luna, who has absolutely no special feelings for Sirius at all? Or any of the others? They did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. Hermione's main worry was that it was a trap, not that Sirius did not deserve to be rescued. I don't see Hermione being that callous, ever. Ron and Neville followed Harry in and I'm pretty confident they don't have any romantic interest in Harry

First off that was aimed at all shippers Hr/R, H/G, and H/Hr. I really should have put something in there to let people know that. My apologies. But I will point out that in your eariler posts you tried to say that Hermione trying to stop Harry from walking into a trap was a minus for her. So which is it?

I don't think it was outside influence in the scene with Percy's letter. It was Hermione reacting to what Ron was doing with the letter. So there's absolutely no reason that I see to take out that plank. Hermione definitely reacted to Ron, to what Ron was doing at that point.

Yes Ron was feeling bad because of Percy's letter. All of Ron's frame of mind at that point was created by the letter. And its the reason that Hermione helped him with his homework in the first place. To leave the letter out is a simple ommision designed to support a theory.

Read the paragraph closely. I said that Hermione wasn't practical, she was sympathetic to Ron and trying to deal with him more sympathetically, which translates to more emotionally

1)I guess I must have misread
Of course Ron's problems are trivial to Harry's, but still, there's no reason for her to be any less practical in her response to Ron,
From your own post.

2) I can translate Hermione's looking disappointed at Harry's rejection of the offer to help knit elf hats, and her excitement when she's talking to him about start the DADA classes with him as teacher as emotional as well. And disappointment and the excitement are emotions as well. I can match translation for translation but it will get us nowhere.

It does hint at some frustration that Hermione has in Ron's direction, as does the comment in the post-Valentine scene that Harry is almost as bad as Ron. Again, I tend to get the impression there are scenes that we are miissing because the book is written from Harry's POV. Ron and Hermione have spent a lot of time together as prefects, presumably being alone together. While we have no idea of what is going on then, some of Hermione's actions do not seem to be the result of any Ron and Hermione scenes that take place in front of Harry.

Sorry. Once again. I can insert H/Hr scenes in the missing parts of the year as well and use it to justify my ship. But I won't. After all we could say that the reason that Hermione knew that Harry wasn't a bad kisser was because they had practiced off screen. But this will once again get us nowhere. And in the Post Kiss we get all that we need at this point to know how Hermione was able to tell Harry he was as bad as Ron.

Could you sight the examples where their squabbling leads to Hermione going off crying or they don't talk to one another a while? It's actually very rare for their squabbling to lead to a falling out, even temporarily. Book five references please. Book four references may do, but as that's the book where I think Ron and Harry finally noticed Hermione was a girl I don't really view anything before that as significant.

In Gof I'll simply cite the Post Yule ball when Hermione stormed off and they were described as acting oddly formal afterwards. Your turn to cite one where Harry and Hermione's fighting leads to a falling out. No later than Gof please.

Cheers!

[Turambar]

Thanks Sone, Evaluna, Earendil. Nice posts today, particularly Lleyki.:)
JKR said in her Albert Hall interview when the book came out that while Harry has some difficult situations ahead to deal with, his overall situation isn't again as bad as it is in OOTP because from now on people believe him about Voldemort's return.
As Lleyki and FP and others have pointed out the formation of the DA and the harnessing of Rita to get Harry's story out to the wider world were very key things that happened in OOTP to help Harry get through the year.
Why did JKR make Hermione the person to think up and push through these schemes, which greatly helped Harry. Hermione is the embodiment of the phrase 'actions speak louder than words' in OOTP.
One of the key messages of the book is that sometimes you have to act tough to get through to people and sometimes you have to change basic situations to make a difference. Hermione shows in OOTP that she cares enough to do that. She cares enough to risk Harry's anger even though she finds it intimidating.
For instance in the whole sequence after the snake dream, Molly, Harry's surrogate mother, is unable to help him. Her brand of sympathetic words, hugs and encouragement could not get through to Harry. It took Hermione's intervention, a realistic tone and, I think especially "Oh, don't lie, Harry" and "stop feeling all misunderstood" to cut through Harry's despair.
In this book Dumbledore is distant and Harry is angry at him. McGonagall has some influence but is caught up in battles with Umbridge. Hagrid is away but is also a bit distant when he comes back. Sirius, Lupin, Molly and Arthur have limited influence while Harry is at school.
Once again, as in the period before the first task in GOF, JKR basically takes everyone with influence, maturity and wisdom away from Harry except Hermione. Yes Ron is there for support this time but his influence is diminished, in this book at least.
Even though this period was difficult for them and their relationship was tense at times, Harry and Hermione emerge at the end closer than before.
I also expect Harry to have learned to listen to Hermione more, because another key message from the book, I feel, is about learning from mistakes.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Hawk 92 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471414#post471414))
First off that was aimed at all shippers Hr/R, H/G, and H/Hr. I really should have put something in there to let people know that. My apologies. But I will point out that in your eariler posts you tried to say that Hermione trying to stop Harry from walking into a trap was a minus for her. So which is it?

I said it was mainly a strike against her for those who claimed that Hermione had any ability to keep Harry in check. Some peopel have used Hermione's ability to keep Harry in check as an argument for their relationship and I went through and found there was no evidence that she had.

Yes Ron was feeling bad because of Percy's letter. All of Ron's frame of mind at that point was created by the letter. And its the reason that Hermione helped him with his homework in the first place. To leave the letter out is a simple ommision designed to support a theory.

I really fail to see what difference that it was a letter that caused Ron to act the way he did and make an impression on Hermione. All that mattered was that Hermione reacted to the way Ron was acting. I don't see why it happened to be Percy's letter that made a difference or disqualified it.

Sorry. Once again. I can insert H/Hr scenes in the missing parts of the year as well and use it to justify my ship. But I won't. After all we could say that the reason that Hermione knew that Harry wasn't a bad kisser was because they had practiced off screen. But this will once again get us nowhere. And in the Post Kiss we get all that we need at this point to know how Hermione was able to tell Harry he was as bad as Ron.

Almost as bad as Ron. For some reason Ron is considered worse. But you'd think if Harry and Hermione had kissed it would have happened on screen as it were. And I am careful to say that we don't know that anything significant has happened between them when Harry wasn't around. My main point is that Ron and Hermione have lives when Harry isn't around, and some of Hermione's reactions to Ron don't seem based in any of the scenes that we've seen.

In Gof I'll simply cite the Post Yule ball when Hermione stormed off and they were described as acting oddly formal afterwards. Your turn to cite one where Harry and Hermione's fighting leads to a falling out. No later than Gof please.

I think you mean 'no sooner than GoF'. And I've given several instances where Harry is not speaking to Hermione for the rest of the day over something or another. You may not define that as a formal falling out, but Hermione repeatedly has Harry going off angry and not speaking to her for the rest of the day. Over and over. I listed that in an earlier post with chapter references. I don't see Hermiione or Ron not speaking to the other with that sort of regularity. GoF also had the one time in all five books that Harry and Ron had fallen out.

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471491#post471491))
I really fail to see what difference that it was a letter that caused Ron to act the way he did and make an impression on Hermione. All that mattered was that Hermione reacted to the way Ron was acting. I don't see why it happened to be Percy's letter that made a difference or disqualified it.

When you love someone, you do what is best for them and what will help them just for them. You do it because you want to show your love. If your actions are motivated by external influences, such as Percy’s letter causing Ron to feel worse than he already is, then she didn’t help Ron simply because she likes him. She did it to make Ron feel less bad after reading Percy’s letter.

Furthermore, she also helped Harry with his homework. Checking their homework for mistakes is something that Hermione has been doing for Harry and Ron since the days of PS/SS. As for the odd look she gives him, how can you attribute it to affection, if you say that she likes him? “Odd� is not the word I would use to describe someone who is looking at their beloved with sympathy and affection.

[haycheng]

To mutant of Hire and other H/R supporter
I find it is very interesting that you try to bring out some of the "warm" moment. I do not know what is the standard for "warm" moment, so I will put in H/Hr moment that I consider "warm".

Pg. 278 US:
Harry looked into ther face, which was shining with glee, and tried to look as though he was vaguely tempted by this offer.
"Er...no, I don't think I will, thanks," he said. "Er-not tomorrow. I've got loads of homework to do...."
Potter shows care about hermione's feeling.

Pg. 324 USA:
He was pleased to see them, especially as Hermione was disposed to be sympathetic reather than critical.
Hermione clear show sympathetic. Harry says so himself. I guess none can decline this is "warm" right? Remember, Hermione has perfect reason to get angry this time.

Pg 700-701 US:
Harry try to claim Hermione down after seeing Grawp. I think it is a "warm" moment.

For H/R "warm" moment.
I believe the Percy letter is the one that get most attention? When Ron say he will never by rude to hermione, hermione merely reply that she know she will know he is normal again. It is really look good for a relationship if hermione believe ron will always be rude to him. Harry and Ron have been worked for a whole day. I believe ever without Percy letter, Hermione will come to help them. Ever when you believe it is just for Ron, remember ron has just did something right and give up a great deal. It is very natural to be sympathetic in that moment.

[Perdita]

Again, about Percy's letter, I think haycheng brought up a good point that has made me re-examine this passage. Was Hermione disposed to help them whether Percy's letter arrived or not? You could argue for this interpetation because just before Percy's letter arrived, Hermione was in the midst correcting Ron's mistakes, and getting yelled at for doing so.

[Mar Dhea]

In regard to Harry's lack of desire to listen to Hermione when she tells him the truth, when she muses on situations, what have you - Harry is remarkably frustrated with life. One of the biggest reasons that he's not willing to take in what hermione says is that he just doesn't wnat to face it. Deliverance is nothing to him - it's what is delivered...he wants to send it all back, and have a nice, incomplicated life. But he doesn't have one, and when he needs to see truth, he finds it hard. It's another slap in the face with a wet fish by life. Sugar-coated or not, it's still a bad deal Harry's getting. I don't think Hermione telling him the opposite of the truth, just to make him happy is exactly the kind of thing that would command respect, or trust. Harry knows that what Hermione says always - always - makes sense, it's just that he doesn't want it to. If it were Ron saying the stuff - that Sirius is disappointed that he's not expelled because he misses James and sees a new James in Harry - not because he's unhinged, but because he's very lonely; that Hagrid isn't as great a teacher as Harry forces himself to believe and that he makes life difficult for Harry, Hermione, Ron and Hagrid himself, etc. - it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, his reactions would remain the same. Peppered with 'mate' or not, Harry is sick of the hand he's being dealt and isn't willing to listen to it being told to him. But what's the other option? Lie?

And harry is frustrated with everything. Now, I don't know how hard it is coping with being a teenage boy, but I do know the 'angstiness' that descends upon one in adolescence (I'm a girl, so ask me nothing about the trauma of a broken voice) and frustration with life is a pretty common whine. The difference here is, on top of that, Harry has very, very good reasons to think life is distictly unfair to him. And when you're in a mood when you think life is blowing raspberries at you, you don't want to listen to reason from anyone. Ever. It's majorly annoying. But you still need to hear sense, because you can't go around with your head firmly under a raincloud, shooting daggers at everything. Eventually you get it. You appreciate it. You feel like an idiot for being so whiny and feeling all woeful, misunderstood, tortured. But at the time, you do feel like the world and its chicken are your enemy, and you seriously wish life would drown in a sea of cyanide. That's most likely how Harry feels about everything - in fact, that's it. And that needs to be accounted for in his dealings with everyone.


Just for the record, that's the same thing Ron went through in GoF with the jealously thing. And Hermione never went through it...is it becasue she was never dealt a bad hand? Nah. It takes real maturity - I couldn't skirt the 'life is a torture device' phase, and I 'm not exactly a Ron - to get that kind of perspective on life, and not see it as out to get you. It's far better for Harry to be able to be influenced by Hermione's ability to get perspective on a situation, and assess it, than to have her pander to his bouts of self-pity and ferocity. That's what I call being a friend - giving them the truth, all the time, even when it's hard to swallow.

Honestly, who wants Hermione to morph into a liar because it suits Harry?

[GilyAnn]

Mutant for hire :bigtu: :bow: excellent posts! I hardly have anything to say!


Gile Ann, I am a he, not a she :lol

So sorry! I never look at those little things! Twice it has happend. Sorry!


He wasn't angry thats wrong word for it and Harry wasn't angry about this letter which he shouldn't write. Even for Harry wasn`t it a very great moment that Luna believed him that girl believe everything and thats what Harry do know. Harry asked her and she gave him her opinion nothing more should she lie?!
She was angry with her. He asked her not to insult the people that believe him.

A few seconds later, Luna Lovegood emerged, trailing behind the rest of the class, a smudge of earth on her nose, and her hair tied in a knot on the top of her head. When she saw Harry, her prominent eyes seemed to bulge excitedly and she made a beeline straight for him. Many of his classmates turned curiously to watch. Luna took a great breath and then said, without so much as a preliminary hello, 'I believe He Who Must Not Be Named is back and I believe you fought him and escaped from him.'

'Er - right,' said Harry awkwardly. Luna was wearing what looked like a pair of orange radishes for earrings, a fact that Parvati and Lavender seemed to have noticed, as they were both giggling and pointing at her earlobes.

'You can laugh,' Luna said, her voice rising, apparently under the impression that Parvati and Lavender were laughing at what she had said rather than what she was wearing, 'but people used to believe there were no such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack!'

'Well, they were right, weren't they?' said Hermione impatiently. There weren't any such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack.'

Luna gave her a withering look and flounced away, radishes swinging madly Parvati and Lavender were not the only ones hooting with laughter now.

'D'you mind not offending the only people who believe me?' Harry asked Hermione as they made their way into class.

This is just wrong. Hermione do has doubts but still she go on with the DA. Its not alone Harry its mostly Hermione who gos on. Because there are two possibles first fail or to get caught. Well, caught isn't that bad.

Well actually she wasn’t that happy that Harry had found a place for the DA meetings.

Their robes billowed and swirled around them as they splashed across the flooded vegetable patch to double Herbology, where they could hardly hear what Professor Sprout was saying over the hammering of raindrops hard as hailstones on the greenhouse roof. The afternoons Care of Magical Creatures lesson was to be relocated from the storm-swept grounds to a free classroom on the ground floor and, to their intense relief, Angelina had sought out her team at lunch to tell them that Quidditch practice was cancelled.

'Good,' said Harry quietly, when she told him, 'because we've found somewhere to have our first Defence meeting. Tonight, eight o'clock, seventh floor opposite that tapestry of Barnabas the Barmy being clubbed by those trolls. Can you tell Katie and Alicia?'

She looked slightly taken aback but promised to tell the others. Harry returned hungrily to his sausages and mash. When he looked up to take a drink of pumpkin juice, he found Hermione watching him.
'What?' he said thickly.

'Well… it's just that Dobby's plans aren't always that safe. Don't you remember when he lost you all the bones in your arm?'

I could see a mutual H/G crush since they are better friends now, though I believe it would be a step back for Ginny having gotten over him.


Did she get over him? I’m not so sure about this. Hermione said she gave up on Harry. I didn’t see the need on the clarification that she still liked him. Harry already knows that Ginny talks to him and she is nice so it’s not like she hates him. It seems very clear to me that while Ginny may have given up on Harry she still may hold some feelings for him. She seemed highly perceptive of his feelings and actions something very odd for someone you gave up on.


Also, Harry would have to develop not only some feeling for her beyond moderate friendship and he would also have to begin to find her physically attractive. These pieces are not in place but of course JKR could do if she fancies in the next book.

While Harry has never said that Ginny is pretty he certainly has given her very nice adjectives. Perhaps he considers likeable material. But he has yet to register that Ginny is a girl and one that he maybe attracted to.


Yet Harry needs Hermione, and she has many qualities that neither Harry nor Ginny possess. I personally also believe that Harry finding love -- not a crush -- is at the crux of the septology, and that the most viable love interest to date is Hermione, far and away. I’m not saying your ship isn’t possible, just much less likely and not at the same level, IMO. The connections just don’t exist and like everything else worth having in life, these things take time to be built. It's not that many don't see your position. They do; it's just that they see it differently and thus the debate.

I can easily see how Ginny can sucecced Hermione. H/Hr shippers tend to think that Harry can’t survive without Hermione. While he may needs her for her intelligence even there he sometimes doesn’t bother to seek for her. Harry doesn’t need a mother. He had one and she die. Harry needs a partner, a girlfriend that loves him, understands him and be there with him on his worst moments. Not someone who scolds, nags, pleads and wallow. All of them at which Hermione is very good at doing. Hermione has become some form of Harry’s mother which I deeply dislike. She doesn’t’ treat him like an equal she treats him like a child. Something that Harry is not particulary fond off.

Hermione almost never gets results. Now admittedly, neither Ginny or Luna ever tried to stop Harry from doing something risky, and in Ginny's case, she was an accomplice. But the one time that Harry complains about a problem to Ginny, instead of telling him not to do it, she tries to find a way to help him. That makes a strong contrast to the previous time that Harry mentioned he was going to contact Sirius and got a flat out order not to do it by Hermione.

Mutant that’s true I had not even though of the comparison! Thanks!

The fact of the matter is that in book five, Harry and Hermione have a good deal of difficulty just getting along. That isn't a good sign for a relationship. And to say that the problem is that Harry is being dense is to ignore the fact that Hermione rarely shows any sympathy or compassion. She comes off as a stern taskmistress, not unlike Professor McGonagall. This apparent lack of sympathy on her part makes him angry. The fact is that for all she's good with the problems of others, she's very bad at seeing her own problems. If she's going to be his girlfriend, she's going to actually have to learn how to act nice on a regular basis rather than once a fortnight.

Mutant again another one of the many reasons why I don’t think H/Hr are suited!

I don't like being misunderstood so let me clear this up immediately. Gilyann I never purported to say that Ginny didn't care AT ALL about what was going on. Of course she wanted to help out of genuine concern. My simple observation is that judging by her immediate scowl and rather petulant way of reacting to Harry and the others wanting to keep her behind; it gave off the impression of a little girl pouty over being left behind. Someone who wanted to prove that "look I can be brave too, I can be strong, etc." Again I don't hate her for it. Being the last child of a family of seven and the only girl, it makes sense. My simple point is that it didn't do much in making the character as appealing as Jk strove to do throughout the book(what with the boyfriends, Quidditch, etc.) That's all. Also I am not trying to stubbornly see H/Hr by saying that no amount of Quidditch together will convince me that Harry will switch his trust and sharing from Hermione to Ginny. It's not about shipping but the main problem I had with OOTP; that it would seem contrived.

I see what you mean but then let’s include Hermione in there because of this:

Harry felt a soft tug on his robes at that moment and looked down to see the closest Thestral licking his sleeve, which was damp with Grawp's blood.

'OK, then,' he said, a bright idea occurring, 'Ron and 1 will take these two and go ahead, and Hermione can stay here with you three and she'll attract more Thestrals -'

'I'm not staying behind!' said Hermione furiously.

There's no need,' said Luna, smiling. 'Look, here come more now… you two must really smell…'

While you may tell me that Hermione has always been part of the group is Harry’s idea that she stays and attract more thestrals. So the way I see it. Sirius safety was a big issue in that part.
I honestly can’t understand why you think why all of Ginny’s notes on his character was contrived. Everything was in there including a small hint about Quidditch.

Let me try to explain that better. The whole time I read Ron being Prefect I was literally rolling my eyes. The entire thing was completely contrived and stupid; as well as him winning the Cup.

Funny those moments were very endearing and are among my favorites on the book.

I bet that's why she didn't actually write it and chose instead to have Harry and Hermione go meet Grawp. Perhaps JK herself could not have written that entire thing realistically. I already believe that Ginny being on the team was contrived and her suddenly having Harry and Ginny become so close because of it will add to the convenience of it. Plus if Harry becomes distant with Hermione or continues to not listen to her when she says something, I don't know that I'll be able to continue reading the books. Again this is very little to do with shipping but simple literary criticism. The fact of the matter is above all else what we are meant to see through the seven books is Harry's development.

No IMHO I think JKR choosed not to write that scene because of other factors. Somehow I get the feeling that you may not like what JKR writes in the next two books because if she goes for the road I believe she is going she’ll get a few drop outs. Not that she cares much like she have said.

The fact is he has done the not listening to Hermione thing more than once and ALL the time she was right. At what point does JK make the character grow and realize that what he feels and wants to do now is not always the right thing to do.

I believe that JKR made Harry grow up but not the way many though it would be. JKR will separate Harry from Ron and Hermione the next books. While I’m not saying that they won’t speak to each other the amount of time that Harry spends time with them will diminish a lot. Specially if Harry falls for Ginny or any other girl. She may cut considerably a lot of time from Ron and Hermione being with him.


Besides I am not quite convinced that Jk will go the way of Harry pulling away from Hermione for a few things. One, the whole him having the rational part of his brain sounding like her. It seems that while his conscious self is not willing to listen to her; his sub-conscious is. Re-interating my belief that while Harry may get upset at Hermione, he is not stupid and therefore knows when she is probably right about things.

Harry already has the part where he thinks on his own if something is dangerous or not and when can he really take the chance. Therefore she is separating Hermione from him by giving him the time and knowledge to do that on his own.

Two, the constant reference in the end that she was right and he should have listened to her. Am I to believe that after that kind of heart-breaking lesson in having to lose Sirius; Harry will continue on his road of not listening to Hermione? What is the boy just a glutton for punishment?

I believe he won’t listen to her because that happened in GoF and with occlumency and with all the other stuff. He just can’t stand Hermione’s way of telling him off. After OoP to be quite honest I see a barrier between Harry and Hermione. By accusing him of playing the hero Hermione did something that brought a wall between them.

However he was still doubtful and afraid to be hopeful. He was completely convinced when Hermione patiently reminded him that one cannot apparate or disapparte out of Hogwarts and Ron cemented it by telling him that he was in his bed the whole time. It was the combination of all three of them. It amuses me that you get so miffed by persons saying that Hermione got Harry out of the room and consequently his mood; even though whatever the figurative meaning may have been she was the one who LITERALLY got him out of the room. Yet, you would actually say that it was Ginny in that scene who made Harry feel better.

Mutant for Hire already answered this. The chamber will come again at some point but I don’t think it would be just yet. JKR obviously is carefull where she lays clues.

Gilyann I have to really disagree with your attitude on Hermione explaining Ron's side to Harry in GOF. Your attitude of who cares about Ron baffles me. Even if I might be one who believes Hermione has feelings for Harry I am of the opinion too that first and foremost though; these kids are friends. To be rather corny "one for all and all for one" if you will.

The fact is that in a romantic partnership. Hermione would have explained Ron’s feelings she would have understand Harry’s. Is one of the main clues that tells me that Hermione is simply not interested in Harry. A romantic partner would have cared first about Harry’s feelings then the rest of the world. Again I still stand on saying that I don’t care about Ron’s feelings. Harry was the one with the problem. First Harry then Ron in Hermione’s case was first Ron and second Ron two since she understood him very well. She shows more affection and understanding towards Ron than what she shows Harry.

She is right there along with Harry leading the charge. She can be his voice of conscience and reason as Harry mentions and even with her stopping him from hurting a baby, even if it was a DE.

If anything showed the DoM to me is that Hermione may be very smart but in terms of applying those to real dueling. She still has a looooong way to go. If JKR continues to put Hermione in dueling I’ll be worried. A DE is a DE. This wasn’t right or easy this was just silly on her part. And it end up costing her.

Again she maintains that balance of what is right versus what is easy. She is not afraid to face his wrath if it means saving him. She will fight with and for him. She may be slightly intimidated by him but she will never back down from him.

Intimidated? There were a coulple of times that Hermione was scared of Harry! She may tell talk back to him but she was scared of him. That scene did very well remind that post in FA where they said that Ron would be an abuser. I had to laugh because if there was someone that fitted the description was Harry then.


Gily Ann

[MoF]

My main point is that Ron and Hermione have lives when Harry isn't around, and some of Hermione's reactions to Ron don't seem based in any of the scenes that we've seen.

- Really, isn't this just bringning the whole "off-stage" issue back to topic?
We shouldn't speculate in these things, since everybody could put in their own story about it.

Hermione repeatedly has Harry going off angry and not speaking to her for the rest of the day. Over and over.

- well, it doesn't happen that many times, mostly Hermione tries to reason with him, and gets nervous and anxious if Harry gets angry.
Again, note Hermione is right about most of it, and Harry regognises this at the end of the book.
I dont't at all se Hermione acting as a strict mother, McGonagall or whatever, as i said, she tries to reason wtih him without overruling him.
As many people have already said, isn't the fact that she dares to argue with him a sign of her feelings for him and her good intentions?
Why is this a sign that she is treating Harry like a dim-witted mule?

Well actually she wasn’t that happy that Harry had found a place for the DA meetings.
- She merely expressed a concern to Dobby's judgement. Why wouldn't she be happy about the DA? It was her idea in the first place!

[Turambar]

Just about the letter, wasn't Hermione impressed by Ron's attitude because he was showing loyalty and friendship to Harry? Percy was attacking Harry and Ron demonstrated his support for Harry over his older brother. And she helped both Harry and Ron with their homework.

[sone]

Originally posted by MoF (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471687#post471687))
Hermione repeatedly has Harry going off angry and not speaking to her for the rest of the day. Over and over.


Because she is the only one who really cares enough to tell him what he needs to hear (over and over). It may leave him angry but he is still listening because he knows she is not doing it for her own pleasure or for arrogance but his own welfare.

Oh.....my bad.......well I guess I am replying to Mutant for Hire then :)

[MoF]

sone, you replied to my post before i noticed that i somehow had managed only to slip in Mutant's quotes without my own replies.
**** happens!

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by sone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471711#post471711))
Because she is the only one who really cares enough to tell him what he needs to hear (over and over). It may leave him angry but he is still listening because he knows she is not doing it for her own pleasure or for arrogance but his own welfare.

Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations. Or he might listen but he rarely follows up. And the fact that he gets angry at her makes him increasingly reluctant to share his problems with her or Ron, who shares everything with Hermione.

[MoF]

Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations. Or he might listen but he rarely follows up. And the fact that he gets angry at her makes him increasingly reluctant to share his problems with her or Ron, who shares everything with Hermione.

You make it sound as if Harry has severed ties with Hermione completely. Hermione does make him angry, but he still recogninses it as a sign of her affection, for example when they argue if Sirius is in the DoM or not, and Hermione suggests that they try and establish contact with him:

Even through his anger and impatience, Harry regognised Hermione's offer to accompany him into Umbridge's office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty

- "Out of the fire" , p. 650, UK Edition.

[GilyAnn]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471752#post471752))
Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations. Or he might listen but he rarely follows up. And the fact that he gets angry at her makes him increasingly reluctant to share his problems with her or Ron, who shares everything with Hermione.


I have to agree here with Mutant. Harry doesn't listen to her and when he does he never follows her advice.

Really, isn't this just bringning the whole "off-stage" issue back to topic?

Actually they do spend a lot of time toguether and we do hear about from Harry.

gily Ann

[sone]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471752#post471752))
Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations. Or he might listen but he rarely follows up. And the fact that he gets angry at her makes him increasingly reluctant to share his problems with her or Ron, who shares everything with Hermione.


I have and he does. He may not be in the best mood, but he does listen. In any case, Harry was already reluctant to talk to people in the first place. I do not blame that increase on Hermione just because she had the backbone to tell him what he didn't like hearing from her though he needed to hear it. This is why it is so difficult to choose between what is right and what is easy. It would be so easy for Hermione to not put up with Harry, but she did over and over and she never once lost her temper for it. The result, Harry and Hermione became closer and he never thought badly of her in the aftermath of what happened in the DoM. In fact, he kept thinking to himself "if I had just listened to Hermione." He did not say that about anyone else because no one else was willing to say it directly to him except her.

[MoF]

Actually they do spend a lot of time toguether and we do hear about from Harry.

- Yes, but we don't know what actually happens.

[sone]

Exactly MoF. In fact, one of the things they do bring up to Harry is one of their arguments they had while at the house. House elves and S.P.E.W.

[haycheng]

Did ron really share everything with her? I do not know. You are again put off-screen idea into the post, Mutant of Hire . He did not tell hermione that he is trying out for Keeper either. It is harry that Ron entrusted. I found the idea that Ron and Hermione's bond is stronger is deeply troublesome to me. It is very clear that Hermione put Harry first then Ron second, romantic or not. She chooses to hang out more with Harry in the GOF when the boys are not talking. (Harry mention it is less fun with hermione then with Ron, definely shows they share alot of time together) She continous to believe Ron is rude(Percy letter incident). She opens critizing Ron in couple incidents. Whatever H/Hr will happens or not, I can not see H/R. Especially, she openly say expecting ron would be rude to her if he is normal. It is not Ron did not try to be sensitive. He has been trying since he has crush on her. However, it is simply his character or less on sensitive about others's feeling. I am again talking about Headless Nick in the beginning of the school year. There are more such incidents. The interaction we sees are also limited between them. There is no evident support that hermione ever respect Ron other than loyal in Percy letter incident.

I would not be too suprise if Harry will be alone or die. If he died, he would rejoin his family. It is in a way giving harry what he deisre the most. Although as a book of teenager, I expect somewhat success romantic storyline with Harry before it ends(harry is the main character after all).

PS: Let us remember that no matter how angry Harry is, Hermione goes through his head. He has never dismiss them. He may not follow but never never dismiss it. Also he never angry enough to attack her judgement or character.

[Hawk 92]

Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations. Or he might listen but he rarely follows up. And the fact that he gets angry at her makes him increasingly reluctant to share his problems with her or Ron, who shares everything with Hermione.

You said that Hermione getting Harry to check at the OotP headquarters was a minus for them. Now if Hermione could not get through to Harry how did she accomplish this?

Where do you get Ron sharing everything with Hermione? What part of the text?

Now off topic.....

Welcome to the MI6 division 00 Hope1272.

Actually 00evaluna, lleyki has been in these threads a lot longer than me. But lleyki the 001 slot is yours if you are willing to accept it. Don't worry mine has always been 007. :p

Nice posts today Turambar :clappy:

And great posts all around guys and great posts 00 Branch.

And to stay off topic for a minute

GilyAnn
In the last thread you were telling me that I had missed a clue when Ginny got hit in the face with a stunner. I'm trying to work out what clue that is but I'm still drawing a blank. Thanks.

Now Back on Topic,

GilyAnn

'D'you mind not offending the only people who believe me?' Harry asked Hermione as they made their way into class.

You forgot the part where Hermione told Harry that he could do better than her. It was right after this part.

Well actually she wasn’t that happy that Harry had found a place for the DA meetings.

You answered this yourself;

'Well… it's just that Dobby's plans aren't always that safe. Don't you remember when he lost you all the bones in your arm?'

Its not that she's unhappy that Harry had found a place. She's worried because this place was suggested by Dobby.

Cheers!

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations. Or he might listen but he rarely follows up. And the fact that he gets angry at her makes him increasingly reluctant to share his problems with her or Ron, who shares everything with Hermione.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
I have to agree here with Mutant. Harry doesn't listen to her and when he does he never follows her advice.


Oh really? Harry never follows Hermione advice huh? So Harry came to his senses about dashing off to the DoM by himself? It was Harry who realized maybe he should try contacting Sirius at home first? Wasn't it Ron who was feeding Harry's hysterical delusion about why Sirius might've been captured?

As for the statement that Ron shares everything with Hermione. First of all, Ron had no problems in OotP. There's no text evidence where it shows Ron opening up emotionally to Hermione about his problems. The only times Ron opens up to Hermione is when he's yelling, shouting, screaming or disparaging her. Supported by Hermione's "I'll know you're back to normal" reply.

[Earendil]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
You’ll need to explain this again because you are contradicting yourself here. It doesn’t have anything to do with Voldemort but Ginny is in Danger? :??:

I believe that Harry and Ginny are incompatible because of their characteristics, not merely because I don't want Ginny to be in danger as Harry's girlfriend. She is already in danger, as we all know. My point was that Ron was exercising lack of judgment in wanting H/G to get together, because he was focusing only on the positive points of the relationship rather than the possible ramifications. This has nothing to do with my own personal view of H/G; it has to do with Ron's misconception about the safety of his sister. My apologies for being unclear.
---------------------------------

So. A few points that have been brought up that I'd like to briefly address:

**Harry disregarding/ignoring Hermione's advice
**Hermione never being able to get through to Harry emotionally
**Harry and Hermione's friendship being entirely practical and business-like.

This is starting to tread dangerously close to distortion of the text. Interpret the way you will, but the fact still remains that the above statements simply are not always true based on canon. While Mutant and GilyAnn have put forth good arguments as usual, there has been some obvious negligence of textual instances in which Harry has listened to Hermione's advice, Hermione was able to reach him emotionally, and the two of them have shared warm/amusing moments.

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
The fact of the matter is that in book five, Harry and Hermione have a good deal of difficulty just getting along.

So do Ron and Hermione. Unfortunately, Harry and Hermione dispute over important things and manage to resolve their differences, while Ron and Hermione argue over the most idiotic things and occasionally give each other the silent treatment.

And to say that the problem is that Harry is being dense is to ignore the fact that Hermione rarely shows any sympathy or compassion. She comes off as a stern taskmistress, not unlike Professor McGonagall. This apparent lack of sympathy on her part makes him angry.

OotP, "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place", pg. 66 [US Edition)
"Harry, we're really sorry!" said Hermione desperately, her eyes now sparkling with tears. "You're absolutely right, Harry--I'd be furious if it was me!"

----, "Out of the Fire", pg. 731
"Harry!" said Hermione at once, looking very frightened. "What happened? Are you all right? Are you ill?"

----, "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor, pg. 324
He was pleased to see them, especially as Hermione was disposed to be sympathetic rather than critical.
"Here," she said anxiously, pushing a small bowl of yellow liquid toward him, "soak your hand in that, it's a solution of strained and pickled murtlap tentacles, it should help."
Harry placed his bleeding, aching hand into the bowl and experienced a wonderful feeling of relief. Crookshanks curled around his legs, purring loudly, and then leapt into his lap and settled down.
"Thanks," he said gratefully..
--------------------
I could go on and look through books 1-4 for more examples just like these. Hermione may be brisk and practical, but she genuinely cares for Harry, and I don't think that anyone is disputing this. However, Mutant's point seems to be that Hermione acts like a strict nanny to Harry rather than a caring friend, and I don't believe that such a stern and compassionless person would show the obvious concern that Hermione has shown. Why does she even bother to placate Harry's rage in "Out of the Fire" by telling him that it was such a wonderful thing to do to rescue Fleur's sister, if she is so lacking in sympathy? Why does she constantly ask him how he's feeling if she is so uncaring? Why, for that matter, is she almost always the first to even notice when he's acting strangely?

Some peopel have used Hermione's ability to keep Harry in check as an argument for their relationship and I went through and found there was no evidence that she had.

In OotP alone, Hermione managed to:
**Convince Harry to swallow his pride and participate in the DA
**Help him to speak freely for the first time about the night Voldemort returned for the general public to hear
**Prevent him from skiving off Divination ("Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four", pgs. 364-365)
**Force him to consider that Sirius may actually be more reckless than he thinks
**Make him feel guilty for neglecting Occlumency
**Coax him out of Buckbeak's room and, along with Ron and Ginny, cheer him up slightly about being possessed
**Convince him to check at Grimmauld Place to see if Sirius is there before running off to the DoM
**Get him away from the veil in the Death Chamber

To be completely fair, we have numerous occasions in which Hermione doesn't get through to him in the least bit. He completely ignores her when she tells him not to write to Sirius, he goes ahead and breaks into Umbridge's fire to chat with Sirius despite a whole afternoon of him telling her not to, and he gives her the silent treatment just because she told him that he shouldn't have been poking around through Voldemort's thoughts (just to name a few). How boring would the series be if Harry listened to every single word of caution? He would be in a lot less danger, for starters. Let's not forget that it isn't just Hermione's advice that he ignored in OotP, and even before. He didn't heed Mrs. Weasley's warning to stay away from the DA and he conveniently neglected to remember Dumbledore's urgent insistence that he continue with Occlumency. He ignores Hermione more than anyone else because Hermione gives him more advice than anyone else does. Direct variation at its finest.

And I've given several instances where Harry is not speaking to Hermione for the rest of the day over something or another. You may not define that as a formal falling out, but Hermione repeatedly has Harry going off angry and not speaking to her for the rest of the day.

Exactly. Here's the difference: Ron and Hermione will have stupid arguments and both of them will give the other the cold shoulder for awhile until it blows over. 00Hawk mentioned the Yule Brawl as evidence of this, and I will cite this passage from OotP:

"Professor Umbridge", pg. 231
"You are so tactless!"
"What? I only asked her if--"
"Couldn't you tell she wanted to talk to Harry on her own?"
"So? She could've done, I wasn't stopping--"
"What on earth were you attacking her about her Quidditch team for?"
"Attacking? I wasn't attacking her, I was only--"
"Who cares if she supports the Tornadoes?"
"Oh, come on, half the people you see wearing those badges only bought them last season--"
"But what does it matter?"
"It means they're not real fans, they're just jumping on the bandwagon--"
"That's the bell," said Harry dully, because Ron and Hermione were bickering too loudly to hear it. They did not stop arguing all the way down to Snape's dungeon, which gave Harry plenty of time to reflect that between Neville and Ron he would be lucky ever to have two minutes' conversation with Cho that he could look back on without wanting to leave the country.
<snip for more mooning over Cho>
"He filed into the classroom behind Ron and Hermione and followed them to their usual table at the back, where he sat down between Ron and Hermione and ignored the huffy, irritable noises now issuing from both of them.

This is a mutual refrain from communication. As opposed to one giving the other the silent treatment. I cited the entire passage because this is an exemplary argument between Ron and Hermione that shows that if Hermione isn't getting through to anyone, it would be Ron. She cuts him off four times in one conversation. Likewise, Ron could say anything and Hermione would just steamroller right over him. Doesn't sound like these two are communicating too well.

Also, I can think of only three occasions in OotP in which Harry gave Hermione the silent treatment, and the third one was a joint effort with Ron anyway (even though it wasn't Ron who Hermione was nagging). We have yet to see Harry and Hermione officially falling out and not speaking to each other.

Even if Rowling has Hermione interested in Harry (and there's some very mixed data on that, as frankly there are more signs of emotional warmth by Hermione towards Ron rather than Harry),

Emotional warmth towards Ron?
Okay, she shows compassion to him for possibly the first time in OotP by expressing sympathy for his Quidditch gloom and correcting his essay after he got a slap in the face from his brother. This compared to four books of her repeatedly attacking his opinions and snapping at him over silly things (which she continues to do anyway).

This is getting long-ish, so I'll wrap up with this: It's been well-established that the much-ignored voice of reason belongs to Hermione, and even Harry knows this. He's starting to hear her voice inside his head, for goodness' sake. This girl and all her nagging and cajoling is finally starting to take its toll on Harry's subconscious, whether he likes it or not and whether he chooses to heed it or not. The fact is still that if his conscience is starting to sound like her, even figuratively, something is happening--she's actually getting through to him in her own way. And let's face it: Harry still has alot of developing to do. If he started out as an impetuous young thing who is ready to dash off and save the day at the drop of a hat regardless of consequences--yet he automatically listens when one of his friends tells him to be careful--this story wouldn't go very far. He needs to grow and mature, and he has yet to do so. A girl who can actually help him to develop into maturity by inflicting her own words of caution into his thought process is a more beneficial life partner than a girl who will blindly launch into a reckless scheme without questioning the consequences.

Mutant, the points that I have addressed in your posts are well-thought-out and thorough, I just strongly disagree with your assessment of Hermione. Hope you don't take this as a personal attack. I interpret her character and her relationship with Harry drastically differently from the way that you did, which is perfectly fine.

Nice posts today, everyone. :welcome: to the thread, MoF!

[Turambar]

Great post Earendil. Thanks 00Hawk.
On the non-speaking, there was one occasion in OOTP where Harry didn't speak to Hermione for a day. It wasn't a major problem, especially when compared with the falling out Harry had with Ron in GOF which lasted a month.

[GilyAnn]

In the last thread you were telling me that I had missed a clue when Ginny got hit in the face with a stunner. I'm trying to work out what clue that is but I'm still drawing a blank. Thanks.

I though you had already hit it! I'll PM it to you.

You forgot the part where Hermione told Harry that he could do better than her. It was right after this part.

No I didn't forget it. It wasn't relevant and I didn't want to show how even more rude Hermione was.

I believe that Harry and Ginny are incompatible because of their characteristics, not merely because I don't want Ginny to be in danger as Harry's girlfriend. She is already in danger, as we all know. My point was that Ron was exercising lack of judgment in wanting H/G to get together, because he was focusing only on the positive points of the relationship rather than the possible ramifications. This has nothing to do with my own personal view of H/G; it has to do with Ron's misconception about the safety of his sister. My apologies for being unclear.

I am sooooo sorry but I still don't get it. I see that it's not about your preferences but you say that we all know that Ginny is in danger but you don't want her to be in danger. That Ron execersise poor judgement for not seeing the ramifications of the H/G pairing. But if Ginny is in danger already there is no possible ramifications. Being or not being Harry's girlfriend she is already in danger. I still dont' get what you are trying to say.

go2go but be back because I left a few things.
Gily Ann

[Hawk 92]

Turambar

With all of these great additions to the MI6 of HMS Harmony, I think I'll submit a request for a vacation. It will be on your desk as soon as I finish this post.

Back on Topic,

I think you mean 'no sooner than GoF'. And I've given several instances where Harry is not speaking to Hermione for the rest of the day over something or another. You may not define that as a formal falling out, but Hermione repeatedly has Harry going off angry and not speaking to her for the rest of the day. Over and over. I listed that in an earlier post with chapter references. I don't see Hermiione or Ron not speaking to the other with that sort of regularity. GoF also had the one time in all five books that Harry and Ron had fallen out.

Mutant for Hire
So the criteria is not talking for one day? Or is it so many hours? Now if this is the criteria then at Christmas Harry had a falling out with Molly, Sirius, Ron, Ginny and anyone else who is at the OotP headquarters. I think that we need to define falling out a little more than the rest of the day. And yes I'm happy to apply criteria to both. To be honest I don't think there was a falling out between any member of the Trio with any other member. At least not a major one such as Gof or PoA. But that's my opinion.

Nice post Earendil :clappy: are you in the 00 Division?

Cheers!

[gred&forge4ever]

I did not read the whole thread, but here is a pairng that I think would be too cool!!! Ready BILL and TONKS :). Tonks is one heck of a girl. she is so fun and spunky:). I could definitely see her blasting into tombs with Bill. She has so much more personality than Fluer does.

Other couples 1.Ron and Hermione :love:
2. Harry and Luna :love:
3. Ginny and Neville :love:
4. Fred and Angelina :love:

[Turambar]

00Hawk I'm a bit worried about all this empire-building you're involved in, recruiting all your new buddies to your little elite division. Are they up to scratch? Fully trained? And what's the payoff? Vodka martinis? Caviar? Cruises in the Mediterrean? A new BMW?

[Mad Eye Mike]

For anyone who doubts how important Hermione is to Harry's maturing process and his eventual growth into a man [mentally], I pose to you these questions:

1. Was Hermione right about showing Kreacher respect?
2. Was Hermione right about Sirius viewing Harry as if he were James?
3. Was Hermione right about continuing Occlumency?
4. Was Hermione right about Harry not rushing off to the DoM alone?
5. Was Hermione right about Voldemort setting a trap for Harry?

Answers:

1. Yes - Even Dumbledore admitted Wizards have abused their fellows too long.

2. Yes - Sirius said Harry wound up being less like James than he originally thought.

3. Yes - Continuing Occlumency would've shut out those dreams and LV would never have been able to trick and lure Harry to the DoM.

4. Yes - Harry would've been killed by all those DE's if he were alone. Also, if he would've left when he originally wanted to, he never would've come across Snape who relayed the message to Dumbledore who summoned the Order.

5. Yes - It was a trap.

OotP was clear on one thing, when Harry didn't listen to Hermione, the results were diastrous for him. However, Hermione is the only one who tells these things to Harry. Not because she's a nag, but because when you have someone's best interest at heart, you tell them the truth, not just what they want to hear.

:clappy: Fantstic post by all my HMS Harmony mates today - especially you Earendil!

Turambar - You see, Hawk is always up to no good. That's why he's under investigation. poke:

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by Earendil (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471961#post471961))
So do Ron and Hermione. Unfortunately, Harry and Hermione dispute over important things and manage to resolve their differences, while Ron and Hermione argue over the most idiotic things and occasionally give each other the silent treatment.

I see this as more problematic than Ron and Hermione's superficial arguments. At least with those, nothing big is at stake. But the fact that Harry and Hermione do seem to have more of a tendency to break down at crucial moments doesn't speak well. And I don't think they resolve the problems, so much as avoid them or set them aside to deal with later. The "save-the-day complex" argument was a perfect illustration. Hermione's agreement to go didn't signal she'd backed down from her original stance: simply that she'd recognized debating Harry over it was useless. And Harry, despite his willingness to accept her help, was still clearly angry at her: witness the "aggresiveness" in his response to her offer.

However, Mutant's point seems to be that Hermione acts like a strict nanny to Harry rather than a caring friend, and I don't believe that such a stern and compassionless person would show the obvious concern that Hermione has shown.

Mutant cited Professor McGonagall, who I see as a perfect illustration of how one can be stern and caring at the same time. Her position of authority and the age difference add a certain amount of distance to her relationship with Harry, but I've no doubt her concern for him is as genuine and deep as Hermione's.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Earendil (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=471961#post471961))
**Harry disregarding/ignoring Hermione's advice
**Hermione never being able to get through to Harry emotionally
**Harry and Hermione's friendship being entirely practical and business-like.

This is starting to tread dangerously close to distortion of the text. Interpret the way you will, but the fact still remains that the above statements simply are not always true based on canon. While Mutant and GilyAnn have put forth good arguments as usual, there has been some obvious negligence of textual instances in which Harry has listened to Hermione's advice, Hermione was able to reach him emotionally, and the two of them have shared warm/amusing moments.

You've managed to show a few moments where Hermione has expressed concern for Harry. I have yet to see a warm/amusing moment with emotions on both sides of the line.

OotP, "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place", pg. 66 [US Edition)
"Harry, we're really sorry!" said Hermione desperately, her eyes now sparkling with tears. "You're absolutely right, Harry--I'd be furious if it was me!"

----, "Out of the Fire", pg. 731
"Harry!" said Hermione at once, looking very frightened. "What happened? Are you all right? Are you ill?"

In one case he was screaming at her the moment before, and all he did was go down to a sullen anger. That wasn't sympathy, that was begging forgiveness. In the other case he was going around with a frantic expression. I have admitted in previous posts that Hermione does show compassion to Harry now and then, but it is the exception rather than the norm, and it tends to come out only in more extreme situations.

----, "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor, pg. 324
He was pleased to see them, especially as Hermione was disposed to be sympathetic rather than critical.

Let me interupt here to point out that Harry's normal expectation of Hermione is to be critical rather than sympathetic. I have said in previous posts that she does show sympathy, but that's not how she typically treats him. This quote in fact reinforces my point.

"Here," she said anxiously, pushing a small bowl of yellow liquid toward him, "soak your hand in that, it's a solution of strained and pickled murtlap tentacles, it should help."
Harry placed his bleeding, aching hand into the bowl and experienced a wonderful feeling of relief. Crookshanks curled around his legs, purring loudly, and then leapt into his lap and settled down.
"Thanks," he said gratefully..
--------------------
I could go on and look through books 1-4 for more examples just like these. Hermione may be brisk and practical, but she genuinely cares for Harry, and I don't think that anyone is disputing this. However, Mutant's point seems to be that Hermione acts like a strict nanny to Harry rather than a caring friend, and I don't believe that such a stern and compassionless person would show the obvious concern that Hermione has shown. Why does she even bother to placate Harry's rage in "Out of the Fire" by telling him that it was such a wonderful thing to do to rescue Fleur's sister, if
he is so lacking in sympathy?

Because she knew he was this side of exploding. She was trying to soften her criticism because she knew that he was about to erupt in her face. I would be far more impressed if she tried to show that sort of tact sometime Harry wasn't near exploding or actually exploding. That first apology was when Harry was exploding.

Why does she constantly ask him how he's feeling if she is so uncaring? Why, for that matter, is she almost always the first to even notice when he's acting strangely?

Constantly? I don't notice her asking all that often. And there was one time when she wasn't paying attention when she should have. Cho Chang. Ron was the one who questioned whether or not Harry wanted to go out with her.

In OotP alone, Hermione managed to:
**Convince Harry to swallow his pride and participate in the DA

I don't think "swallow his pride" is the exact expression I would use. And there was the fact that Ron was backing her up. In fact when Hermione shot out her proposal a second time, he turned to Ron to see what his friend would say.

**Help him to speak freely for the first time about the night Voldemort returned for the general public to hear

True, but Harry never had strong objections to talking about that. I don't focus on the times that they were more or less in agreement. This is not a case where Hermione was trying to keep Harry in check.

**Prevent him from skiving off Divination ("Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four", pgs. 364-365)

I don't count this as a serious conflict of wills.

**Force him to consider that Sirius may actually be more reckless than he thinks

If you're talking about Hermione's doubts in chapter eighteen, I don't see where Harry is having doubts.

**Make him feel guilty for neglecting Occlumency

With absolutely zero practical result. I've already said that Hermione is successful at making Harry feel guilty. The problem is he doesn't follow up.

**Coax him out of Buckbeak's room and, along with Ron and Ginny, cheer him up slightly about being possessed

Actually, "coax" is probably a strong word. She just showed up when Harry was expecting her to be on a skiing vacation and he came out of the room to see what she was doing there. And all her commentary was doing was making him steadily angrier. It was Ginny who got him to calm down, apologize and broke through his depression to make him realize his experience wasn't at all like hers. All Hermione did after that was remind him he couldn't Apparate.

**Convince him to check at Grimmauld Place to see if Sirius is there before running off to the DoM

And I conceed that this along with the DA were her only real successes in modifying his behavior when they were at odds. Two incidents out of all the other times they argue. It's not a good record.

**Get him away from the veil in the Death Chamber

He got distracted and she pulled him back. I don't count it as particularly significant.

To be completely fair, we have numerous occasions in which Hermione doesn't get through to him in the least bit. He completely ignores her when she tells him not to write to Sirius, he goes ahead and breaks into Umbridge's fire to chat with Sirius despite a whole afternoon of him telling her not to, and he gives her the silent treatment just because she told him that he shouldn't have been poking around through Voldemort's thoughts (just to name a few). How boring would the series be if Harry listened to every single word of caution? He would be in a lot less danger, for starters. Let's not forget that it isn't just Hermione's advice that he ignored in OotP, and even before. He didn't heed Mrs. Weasley's warning to stay away from the DA and he conveniently neglected to remember Dumbledore's urgent insistence that he continue with Occlumency. He ignores Hermione more than anyone else because Hermione gives him more advice than anyone else does. Direct variation at its finest.

And has as little success as anyone else. And I have no reason to think that Hermione is going to do any better the following year. On an intellectual level, she was doing very well. On an emotional level, she was doing very badly this year. That was one of the reasons that she kept failing with him. And I don't see that getting any better next year. The fact of the matter is that half the time Hermione didn't need to tell Harry what to do. He knew what the right thing was to do. The thing is he didn't care, he didn't want to do the right thing. Hermione has had very little success at getting Harry to want to do the right thing when he doesn't want to. The DA and checking with the OotP headquarters were her two successes out of a string of failures.

Exactly. Here's the difference: Ron and Hermione will have stupid arguments and both of them will give the other the cold shoulder for awhile until it blows over. 00Hawk mentioned the Yule Brawl as evidence of this, and I will cite this passage from OotP:

Deleted conversation for space.

Also, I can think of only three occasions in OotP in which Harry gave Hermione the silent treatment, and the third one was a joint effort with Ron anyway (even though it wasn't Ron who Hermione was nagging). We have yet to see Harry and Hermione officially falling out and not speaking to each other.

One scene compared to three, and its not at all clear that all of Hermione and Ron's squabbling is all that serious. And the murtlap scene was more her worried about his hand. There's also the time after his first occlumency lesson as well. But in general, Hermione tends to show concern and sympathy for Harry only when he's sick/injured or under serious distress. When he's just feeling bad about occlumency, there isn't a lot of sympathy on her behalf. She just tells him to work harder. When Ron feels bad about being a Keeper she gives him a lot more sympathy instead of telling him to work harder.

Emotional warmth towards Ron?
Okay, she shows compassion to him for possibly the first time in OotP by expressing sympathy for his Quidditch gloom and correcting his essay after he got a slap in the face from his brother. This compared to four books of her repeatedly attacking his opinions and snapping at him over silly things (which she continues to do anyway).

She does that to Harry as well, but she's inclined only to drop her critical behavior for more serious issues. The fact that she's sympathetic and supportive for Ron in lesser matters indicates that she reacts to him more strongly. In general she only shows concern for Harry's feelings in extreme situations.

This is getting long-ish, so I'll wrap up with this: It's been well-established that the much-ignored voice of reason belongs to Hermione, and even Harry knows this. He's starting to hear her voice inside his head, for goodness' sake. This girl and all her nagging and cajoling is finally starting to take its toll on Harry's subconscious, whether he likes it or not and whether he chooses to heed it or not. The fact is still that if his conscience is starting to sound like her, even figuratively, something is happening--she's actually getting through to him in her own way. And let's face it: Harry still has alot of developing to do. If he started out as an impetuous young thing who is ready to dash off and save the day at the drop of a hat regardless of consequences--yet he automatically listens when one of his friends tells him to be careful--this story wouldn't go very far. He needs to grow and mature, and he has yet to do so. A girl who can actually help him to develop into maturity by inflicting her own words of caution into his thought process is a more beneficial life partner than a girl who will blindly launch into a reckless scheme without questioning the consequences.

However the question is whether she has to be his girlfriend in order to do this. I don't see any reason that she has to be his girlfriend to give him this advice. In fact I think it's better if they just remain friends. That means that she's going to be more objective about Harry and his needs. She doesn't have to worry about saying anything that might hurt their relationship.

[marspeach]

After debating with myself for a while, I've decided to become a Neville/Ginny shipper. I'm sorry GilyAnn, I'd still like H/G!

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Hawk 92 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472021#post472021))
[B]So the criteria is not talking for one day? Or is it so many hours? Now if this is the criteria then at Christmas Harry had a falling out with Molly, Sirius, Ron, Ginny and anyone else who is at the OotP headquarters. I think that we need to define falling out a little more than the rest of the day. And yes I'm happy to apply criteria to both. To be honest I don't think there was a falling out between any member of the Trio with any other member. At least not a major one such as Gof or PoA. But that's my opinion.

I agree that there was nothing as bad as Ron falling out with Harry in book four, or Harry and Ron falling out with Hermione in book three, but the fact of the matter is that they had a chronic problem. Over and over Hermione and Harry clash and only infrequently does she have any effect on his behavior. The DA and that last check on Umbridge's fire. It's not the severity of any indicident, but the fact that she keeps irritating him or making him angry or at best guilty repeatedly.

Remember the epiphany in the chapter "Out of the Fire" when he recognizes her willingness to go to Umbridge's tower as a sign of loyalty and solidarity. That wasn't a good sign. That was a bad sign. The fact of the matter is he never had that sort of epiphany with Ron because he never once doubted Ron's loyalty or solidarity. Her behavior as a whole did a lot of damage to their relationship, and that repaired it.

But the fact of the matter is even if he understands now that she is loyal, there is still the fact that her behavior still irritates and angers him, or makes him feel guilty. The fact of the matter is that quite often, like with occlumency or the dangers of contacting Sirius Black, he knew she was right, but on an emotional level it didn't make any difference. She's good at telling him the right thing to do. She's bad at getting him to want to do the right thing, and she has this tendency to mouth off about his godfather, Sirius, Hagrid or Quidditch in ways that do not endear her to him.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by marspeach (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472115#post472115))
After debating with myself for a while, I've decided to become a Neville/Ginny shipper. I'm sorry GilyAnn, I'd still like H/G!


Heck, why not? We could use a change of pace.

What about it appeals to you, marspeach?

[Arissya_00]

I still think Ginny and Harry would make a good pair, because they have many similarities and their personalities are good for each other. I seriously can't think why Neville is so good for Ginny. I was actually thinking more of Neville and Luna:)

[Hawk 92]

00Hawk I'm a bit worried about all this empire-building you're involved in, recruiting all your new buddies to your little elite division. Are they up to scratch? Fully trained? And what's the payoff? Vodka martinis? Caviar? Cruises in the Mediterrean? A new BMW?

Turambar, If you check your inbox you will find a complete report on all the new recruits for the 00 Division. And you gave your approval on the expansions as well. There are 9 00 slots and currently only 4 00 postions filled. The budget submited by bean counter Mad Eye Mike clearly allows for 9 00 personal. :)

Now back on Topic,


Mutant

I agree that there was nothing as bad as Ron falling out with Harry in book four, or Harry and Ron falling out with Hermione in book three, but the fact of the matter is that they had a chronic problem. Over and over Hermione and Harry clash and only infrequently does she have any effect on his behavior. The DA and that last check on Umbridge's fire. It's not the severity of any indicident, but the fact that she keeps irritating him or making him angry or at best guilty repeatedly.

So this is a minus for H/Hr when it happens in one year but its a plus that its happened to Hr/R in every book so far.

Remember the epiphany in the chapter "Out of the Fire" when he recognizes her willingness to go to Umbridge's tower as a sign of loyalty and solidarity. That wasn't a good sign. That was a bad sign. The fact of the matter is he never had that sort of epiphany with Ron because he never once doubted Ron's loyalty or solidarity. Her behavior as a whole did a lot of damage to their relationship, and that repaired it.

So its repaired at the end of the book according to you. But you insist that this will have consequences in the next book. And where did Ron and Harry's falling out in Gof get repaired? Where did Hermione and Ron's falling out in PoA get repaired? Where did the Yule Ball scene get repaired?

But I interpeted this as a good sign. Given the year that Harry has gone through. One where he is snapping at everyone and everything and is pushing his friends away. Here to me he recognizes that no matter how hard he pushes Hermione will always be there for him. For better or worse. Hermione has stood with him in the good years and now the bad. But this is just my opinion.

But the fact of the matter is even if he understands now that she is loyal, there is still the fact that her behavior still irritates and angers him, or makes him feel guilty. The fact of the matter is that quite often, like with occlumency or the dangers of contacting Sirius Black, he knew she was right, but on an emotional level it didn't make any difference. She's good at telling him the right thing to do. She's bad at getting him to want to do the right thing, and she has this tendency to mouth off about his godfather, Sirius, Hagrid or Quidditch in ways that do not endear her to him.

Once again you claim that these are pluses for Hr/R and they are minises for H/Hr. So what your saying is that if Hermione has no opinon of her own and does not voice her opinion if it differs from Harry's is the only way that she could be good for him? So Harry needs a robot that can only say Yes Sir and No Sir. So what girl would be good for him? And why can't Harry's opinions be challenged?

Let me interupt here to point out that Harry's normal expectation of Hermione is to be critical rather than sympathetic. I have said in previous posts that she does show sympathy, but that's not how she typically treats him. This quote in fact reinforces my point.

Nor is it how she typically how she treats Ron. But that's not a problem in that part.

You've managed to show a few moments where Hermione has expressed concern for Harry. I have yet to see a warm/amusing moment with emotions on both sides of the line.

I haven't seen one for Hr/R yet.

Hermione does show compassion to Harry now and then, but it is the exception rather than the norm, and it tends to come out only in more extreme situations.

Kind of like Hermione showing compassion to Ron after he gets a nasty letter from Percy or has a lousy Quiddich practice or the whole of Slytherin is out to insult him.

I don't think "swallow his pride" is the exact expression I would use. And there was the fact that Ron was backing her up. In fact when Hermione shot out her proposal a second time, he turned to Ron to see what his friend would say.

Backing her up? Ron shifted everything to Hermione and didn't agree until he saw that Harry wasn't going to explode.

Cheers!

[marspeach]

I haven't figured out how to quote yet, so I'm responding to Rowena Ravenclaw about what appeals N/G to me. Mainly the fact that they both developed so much as characters in OotP is the reason. Also little things like Ginny telling Neville on the train that he wasn't nobody, Neville trying to stop Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad(that's what it was called, right? My friend has my book and it's taking her over two weeks to read it.) from taking Ginny to Umbridge. Those might not even be signs of romance, I'd just like to see them as a couple. I also like H/G and R/L, and don't mind H/Hr. The only couple I'm pretty much against is R/Hr because Ron was a major jerk to Hermione in GoF and he still hasn't really grown up.

[evaluna]

Great posts all H/Hr fellow shippers and you as well HayCheng! Ilyeki as a newcomer to an oldtimer, very nice to meet you, then, and I hope you stick around here! Big guns are aways useful on the front line ;)

Also, to those R/Hr shippers, there were several big posts that some of you may have missed on the last 5 or 6 pages of the old thread (probably all posted the same day, as it was really flying), as I see many of those items that were answered recurring as if new. Or perhaps some of us could just repost as needed.


BTW, I just noticed something that I can't believe I didn't see before, as I think I should have noticed. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share with those who more regularly do detailed textual analysis:

In Chapter 17 "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four", Harry and Ron see the post in the common room banning all unauthorised student organisations. As Ron makes his way up the stairwell to the girls' dormitory to tell Hermione, the following occurs:

"Let's go and tell her," said Ron. He bounded forward, pulled open the door, and set off up the spiral staircase.
He was on the sixth stair when it happened. There was a loud, wailing, klaxonlike sound and the steps melted together to make a long, smooth stone slide. There was a brief moment when Ron tried to keep running, arms working madly like windmills, then he toppled over backward and shot down the newly created slide, coming to rest on his back at Harry's feet.

Later, Hermione comes down the slide and "lands on a rug in front of them." There is no further detail about how far away or whether she was more in front of one or the other. After she tells them about the slide as historic protection for the girls and asks why Ron was trying to get there, Ron explains and pulls her over to the post, where then Hermione tells them about the jinx on the DA contract parchment before they all proceed to the Great Hall.

JKR could have picked any step she wanted for Ron to fall back on, but she picked step 6. This could be an indication that something will happen to Ron in the 6th book during his 6th year, and to me it seems certain to be a clue of some sort. Does it involve a setback for Ron en route to "reaching" Hermione? Acknowledgment of Hermione's lack of reciprocal feelings? Does his landing at Harry's feet mean that he suffers defeat or some other kind of blow at Harry's hand or because of Harry? Does Harry lay Ron low [metaphorically] in Ron's eyes because of something involving Hermione? Or is just something else perhaps where Ron loses to Harry? It's not regarding Head Boy where we could assume Hermione would be Head Girl, as that's 7th year.

Just wondering what thoughts were on this..

[Mutant for Hire]

I don't see the squabbling between Ron and Hermione as nearly as serious as the fighting between Hermione and Harry. A lot of it seems to be more bickering. We only have one case where they were making irritating noises at each other. That isn't nearly as often as Harry and Hermione were not talking to each other this year. Of course others will interpret Ron and Hermione's fighting as more serious and Harry and Hermione's fighting as less serious. Which is part of our root difference.I would like to go on record and state that I have never considered Ron and Hermione's fighting a plus..

As for Hermione showing compassion to Ron and Harry, she does tend to plead with Harry when he's on the verge of exploding, but that isn't the same thing as trying to cheer Ron up when he's feeling depresed. And when Harry is depressed or unhappy about more serious matters than being a Keeper, Hermione is not sympathetic to Harry. Harry has to be in a far more terrible state to get the same reaction that Ron gets for much more minor things.

[Hawk 92]

marspeach :welcome: to SIGNS. The Society Into Ginny Neville Shipping. I like to think also that Ginny and Neville will make a nice, lighthearted couple. And we have a couple of moments as you pointed out.

00evaluna nice theory. I'll ask Mad Eye Mike if there's room in the budget for a clappy. Heck with it take 2
:clappy: :clappy:
:p

Cheers!

[sone]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472083#post472083))
I see this as more problematic than Ron and Hermione's superficial arguments. At least with those, nothing big is at stake. But the fact that Harry and Hermione do seem to have more of a tendency to break down at crucial moments doesn't speak well. And I don't think they resolve the problems, so much as avoid them or set them aside to deal with later. The "save-the-day complex" argument was a perfect illustration. Hermione's agreement to go didn't signal she'd backed down from her original stance: simply that she'd recognized debating Harry over it was useless. And Harry, despite his willingness to accept her help, was still clearly angry at her: witness the "aggresiveness" in his response to her offer.


I see Ron and Hermione's as more problematic because everything is at stake. An argument can start virtually at anytime over any issue. Not to mention they still bring up old issues such as Viktor and S.P.E.W. With Harry and Hermione, it is not the same argument they bring up. It is a new one that will more than likely not get brought up again. With the "save the day" argument, Hermione had made her point by the time Ginny and Luna had entered the room. There was no purpose in reiterating it again because debating it would be useless. It would not get down to the bottom of the issue at hand.

Again, saying something Harry does not want but needs to hear is always going to make him angry at this point. There is no avoiding that. Both Hermione and Harry still have their reservations about whether Sirius was in Grimmauld place or not, but Hermione nevertheless volunteers to go with him into Umbridge's office and Harry nevertheless decides to check to see if Sirius is there or not . Harry even manages to say thanks. That says something, considering each other's character.

[Turambar]

Quote:
She's bad at getting him to want to do the right thing, and she has this tendency to mouth off about his godfather, Sirius, Hagrid or Quidditch in ways that do not endear her to him.
xxxxxxx
I find this astounding. Surely Hermione is entitled to express an opinion that's different to Harry's opinion. Is it a sin to be different, or to question or to think for oneself?
As we've said many times, a theme of the book is right versus easy. What would be the easiest thing for Hermione to do considering she's keen on Harry? Go along with him about everything regardless of whether it's the right thing to do or not.
But she doesn't. If I were an H/G shipper I'd be more worried about the signs of Ginny not questioning or thinking for herself in certain key situations in OOTP.

[Hawk 92]

Mutant

I don't see the squabbling between Ron and Hermione as nearly as serious as the fighting between Hermione and Harry. A lot of it seems to be more bickering. We only have one case where they were making irritating noises at each other. That isn't nearly as often as Harry and Hermione were not talking to each other this year. Of course others will interpret Ron and Hermione's fighting as more serious and Harry and Hermione's fighting as less serious. Which is part of our root difference.I would like to go on record and state that I have never considered Ron and Hermione's fighting a plus..

OK your statement is on record. But here you establish it. With Hr/R fighting is the norm and it takes an extreme situation to bring out the compassion. But with H/Hr mutual respect is the norm and it takes extreme situations to bring out the fighting. That is my interpetation. Not more serious or less serious but what is the norm and what happens to disrupt the norm.

As for Hermione showing compassion to Ron and Harry, she does tend to plead with Harry when he's on the verge of exploding, but that isn't the same thing as trying to cheer Ron up when he's feeling depresed. And when Harry is depressed or unhappy about more serious matters than being a Keeper, Hermione is not sympathetic to Harry. Harry has to be in a far more terrible state to get the same reaction that Ron gets for much more minor things.

When was Harry depressed about something that wasn't major? Harry is not the type to get depressed easily. It takes a lot to get him to that state. In short Harry doesn't get depressed over the minor things.

Now let me ask you one question, Given the way Hermione does things that she cares about, SPEW and her studies and things like that, you don't think that she's trying to show Harry how much she cares as best she can while still being Hermione?

Cheers!

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by sone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472313#post472313))
I see Ron and Hermione's as more problematic because everything is at stake. An argument can start virtually at anytime over any issue. Not to mention they still bring up old issues such as Viktor and S.P.E.W. With Harry and Hermione, it is not the same argument they bring up. It is a new one that will more than likely not get brought up again. With the "save the day" argument, Hermione had made her point by the time Ginny and Luna had entered the room. There was no purpose in reiterating it again because debating it would be useless. It would not get down to the bottom of the issue at hand.

But is that healthy? The fact Ron and Hermione debate about the same issues over and over again suggests to me a certain desire on each's part to bring the other around to his or her way of thinking, or at least to get a clearer understanding of why the other thinks that way. Since Harry and Hermione's arguments tend to be over such fundamental issues, shouldn't they merit at least the same level of consideration?

And what was the issue at hand in the "save the day" debate? Was it saving Sirius, or Harry's safety? If it was the former, then reiterating the objection would have wasted time. But if the issue was Harry's safety, and Hermione's primary concern was Harry's needs, why did she raise the complaint only to drop it when Harry showed signs of stubbornness?

[haycheng]

Ron never has major problem in his life. It is kind of sad that we can not see the first hand reaction of Hermione when she heard about Aurther. Would she goes to comfort Ron or Harry? JKR really wants to keep everything open, didnt she? The fight between Ron Hermoine respresent the basic differences of their character. One has lighter view of life, one views life seriously. Ron simply wants a good comfort life, while Hermione wants to make a different. The way they deal with others also very different. Hermione is very sensitive, while Ron is unsensitive. It would be Ok if they approve each other's view of life. However, they do not. It is showed by their constant arguement. This is why H/R always bother me. How can they ever live together? Ever Ron decides to work on it, he never able to. He is clueless when Hermione is angry. He does not ever know why hermione is angry?!

Argument between Harry and Hermione is neccessary. Those are the big moment that argue is unavoidable. Either are tactless, but how often people can argue tactfully? Ever in extreme situation, they keep their cool and listen. This has to mean something. I believe there is the problem that Harry avoid hermione when he does not want her opinion. It is a difficulty in their relationship but I believe it is a workable one.

Do you believe Harry and Hermione would argue that much if there is none hunting for Harry Potter?

PS: Is there any divison in the H/Hr ship just for the solo prupose of destory and defense against the H/R ship?

Supporter for H/G, H/Hr, Hr/G, G/N, R/L, Hr/N

[BabyMars]

Originally posted by haycheng (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472377#post472377))
PS: Is there any divison in the H/Hr ship just for the solo prupose of destory and defense against the H/R ship?

Have we met haycheng?? Let me intoduce myself! I am the official HMS Harmony shark. I tend to specialize in destroy and defense. Care to join me in the choppy waters we call the love thread??

Cheers :bite:

Edit: Or you can talk to those guys down on the 00 Division deck.... :grumble:

[sone]

Yes Rowena, I find it very healthy. Harry and Hermione explained why they felt that Sirius was or was not being tortured. Granted, they did not change their opinion but they compromised nevertheless. Hermione voluntarily decided to go with Harry into Umbridge's office and said that if Sirius was not there, then she would go with Harry and she did without question. Harry agreed to check at Grimmauld's place first and even managed to say thanks. Ron and Hermione never explain anything to each other with their arguments thus they never know what sets the other off. They can never get the other to see things their way because they never really explain why they are upset in the first place. Combine that with their stubborness of being proven wrong and you have Viktor and S.P.E.W all over again. Issue not resolved, just the sitting there waiting to be brought up again. Those old issues start getting piled on by new issues and so forth.

"And what was the issue at hand in the 'save the day' debate? Was it saving Sirius, or Harry's safety?"

To Hermione, it was Harry's safety because she did believe that Voldemort was trying to draw Harry out of Hogwarts and into the Department of Mysteries. Hermione had already thoroughly explained why she thought Voldemort was drawing him out and how he would go about it. No need to argue it further than neccessary.

[evaluna]

Hawk92: Thanks for clappys! Hopefully someone else has a few comments, overlooked nuggets, or addons to the post. Anyone else have thoughts on Ron falling on the 6th step to the girls's dorm?


Some Clarification Regarding Hermione: Harry's POV in OoP


HayCheng
Quote:
"Especially, she openly say expecting ron would be rude to her if he is normal. It is not Ron did not try to be sensitive. He has been trying since he has crush on her. However, it is simply his character or less on sensitive about others's feeling. I am again talking about Headless Nick in the beginning of the school year. There are more such incidents. The interaction we sees are also limited between them. There is no evident support that hermione ever respect Ron other than loyal in Percy letter incident."
"PS: Let us remember that no matter how angry Harry is, Hermione goes through his head. He has never dismiss them. He may not follow but never never dismiss it. Also he never angry enough to attack her judgement or character."

Turambar
"Quote:
She's bad at getting him to want to do the right thing, and she has this tendency to mouth off about his godfather, Sirius, Hagrid or Quidditch in ways that do not endear her to him.
xxxxxxx
I find this astounding. Surely Hermione is entitled to express an opinion that's different to Harry's opinion. Is it a sin to be different, or to question or to think for oneself?
As we've said many times, a theme of the book is right versus easy. What would be the easiest thing for Hermione to do considering she's keen on Harry? Go along with him about everything regardless of whether it's the right thing to do or not.
But she doesn't. If I were an H/G shipper I'd be more worried about the signs of Ginny not questioning or thinking for herself in certain key situations in OOTP."



HayCheng's post underscores among other things the importance of respect in a relationship and that Hermione doesn't respect Ron's day-in behaviour. To all who say that H/Hr don't get on, I really don't see how that equates when you consider that they do respect one another, plus the fact that they both choose to spend the majority of their non-study time together as well. Also, he reminds us that regardless of Harry's temper throughout OoP, she doesn't let him push her away. Though he may be upset at her at the time, nonetheless he knows that she is concerned for him and always his anger fades.

Moreover, Harry thinks of Hermione constantly and these thoughts are never negative or disparaging, regardless of how often she feels she must confront him for his own good. Harry dwells on thoughts of Hermione on a frequent basis, he feels shame at possibly disappointing her expectations [and his own, granted] re: Prefect, and he finally gears up academically because he doesn't want her to be disappointed in this regard either [perhaps because he knows he needs knowledge in the fight against Voldy but also because Hermione values knowledge]. Harry wants to look good in her eyes, and the thought of perhaps failing to do spurs him to improve himself.

Toward the last part of the book Harry even hears her voice as his conscience. That's really getting in quite deep, and at the level of emotional and moral support, not just intellectual. There's a saying: "love gives you wings", and IMO it's this love for Hermione that is spurring Harry on to better himself, because he knows already that he has her unfailing support [and IMO her love] beside him; it's just he hasn't fully recognised love yet.

Turambar's post underscores another trend I've noticed, and perhaps others have as well. Hermione is entitled to an opinion and Harry has never had a problem with that, whether he always agrees or not. There do seem to be many who feel that Hermione's strength of character, strength of will and moral fibre, and her direct expression are negatives. That is they see her as a compassionless, bossy, know-it-all and so forth. I wholeheartedly disagree but we're all entitled to our opinions.

However, re: my paragraph above, in OoP canon, we see quite a lot of Harry's thoughts dwelling on Hermione and they are nearly always positive. We know Harry admires her competence and her intellect. He is not turned off by that, nor is he insecure around her intellect (Harry himself is obviously extremely bright but has just been rather unmotivated till 5th year). Harry still thinks she's attractive, we have no reason in canon to think otherwise.

I say this because in some posts there is a vaguely disturbing trend that if Hermione is smart and very concerned and involved with Harry's business, she's an unattractive bookworm or overbearing mother sort. Harry may get frustrated at being contradicted but at the same time, we saw he got very angry at her when Seamus/Lavender thought he was a lying nutter @ start of term and he thought Hermione hadn't angrily jumped to his defense. Harry very much expects that Hermione will be passionately supportive on his behalf and he never once tells her that she's too much in his business. Not once. Overall, I think none would dispute that Harry thinks very highly of Hermione and trusts Hermione above all except perhaps Dumbledore -- whom we don't see much of in OoP. Bottom line, Harry is secure in his identity as a [young] man and finds Hermione attractive as a person with all of these traits, including her intellect, her compassion, her convictions, and her outspokenness, as well as finding her attractive physically.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by sone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472437#post472437))
Yes Rowena, I find it very healthy. Harry and Hermione explained why they felt that Sirius was or was not being tortured. Granted, they did not change their opinion but they compromised nevertheless. Hermione voluntarily decided to go with Harry into Umbridge's office and said that if Sirius was not there, then she would go with Harry and she did without question. Harry agreed to check at Grimmauld's place first and even managed to say thanks.

But the compromise, such as it was, was made almost entirely on Harry's terms. He made it clear he wasn't going to wait, no matter what ("if you can think of a way of doing this quickly, I'm with you, otherwise I'm going to the Department of Mysteries right now--"). And the "thanks" wasn't particularly gracious, nor did it mark any real change in his attitude ("what did you think, we're going to wait until after dinner or something? Hermione, Sirius is being tortured right now!") Hermione, on the other hand, seemed so convinced Harry was overreacting ("we'll sneak into the office and you can talk to Sirius--"), she felt she could afford to indulge him for the moment. Neither of them really got through to the other, particularly to the point of respecting the other's concerns. They just seemed determined to get on with it, whatever "it" might have been.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Evaluna,

I just wanted to say I think the symbolism you found of Ron and the staircase (6th stair, 6th year) has lots of merit. It's late, but I'll have more to say on that tomorrow.

:clappy: Great post everyone especially evaluna, sone, Turambar, Hawk, Earendil and haycheng.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I have a little problem with our discussion about Hermione and her sympathic for Harry.

See its very easy to say she do annoy Harry about exta lessons with Snape about Umbridge and about Cho and Sirius and all this stuff.
Its even easy to me if I say Harry is bad tempered and yells without any reason at his friends.
By Ron is it the same if I say he is jealousy without any reason.
By Ginny that she want attention just because she need it.

There is something wrong with this view. Even this view might be right its in the same way complette wrong to look at it. I could even quote and I would get a whole book with quotes which support this. But what we, not we I don`t forget it, forget there is still a background story. A story where is clearly written WHY people act how they act and why they are just like that. It is not that Hermione is mean to Harry and want make his life more difficult. Its just the little absolute uninteressant fact that Voldemort is back. The same guy who did once kill Harrys parents only to try and kill Harry. And the little fact that after Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts that Harry is without any security. How often did Hermione say as long Dumbledore is around Harry is save? She do believe it and now he is away and Voldemort is really back. Not just like in COS as they all freaked out that Dumbledore was away and Voldemort wasn`t back this is very different. Voldemort is again there and might be more powerful as before. Off course Hermione is in this book how she is. If she didn`t act like that I did think she is crazy.
About this annoying thing and that Harry get so often mad about Hermione thats see I again in a very different ankle. Harry wasn`t angry about Hermione not because she did say it or annoy him He is angry because this girl is right and he do know it. Thats the point. If she did come out off thin air and if Harry did know she is always wrong and if He know she don`t mean it well and if he know she don`t has facts which support her thinking and if he know that she don`t speak this thinks aloud what his very mind told him than I more as sure He were never that angry about what Hermione says to him. Not the slightest second.

As Ron and Hermione didn´t talk a whole day in POA is complett normal but if Harry don´t speak with her till lunch thats the big deal. By the way I did say it before Harry dos everytime Hermione say something to him even it makes him angry like crazy he never, I say it again, never did think she is wrong or mean and he was always in his mind able to think she mean it well. If I imagine I get angry on my best friend because he tells me his opinion I didn´t think he mean it well or think always he is right. Thats what I do understanding with reaching Harry. He don´t need to do what she say or say aloud yeah you right and I´m wrong. For me is it enough and this is a big deal if he even think about what she say. Thats exactly that what he don´t do by Dumbledore, Sirius, Snape. Even Harry don´t listen and write this letter he still has in mind to be carefully to see what he write thats why this conversation was there. Even Harry don´t stop this action with speaking to Sirius Hermione did reach him. He would stop it but he couldn´t anymore. To this time Dumbledore was already away.

Harry didn´t answer; He did'nt know what to do.

Ron isn´t any help he just let Harry do what he think is right that is what I mean Ron don´t has an opinion and He know as good as Hermione that if Umbridge get Harry he will be in so much trouble just because Dumbledore isn´t around. What Hermione did with her nagging was absolute understandable. I do understand that much much more as what Ron dos or Ginny. Both don´t ask, both just accept it though both know what could happen. But it seems they just don´t care. Ron isn´t worried and Ginny is in the sameway not worried and that is really what is byond my understanding for that. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Someone who can tell me why this two aren´t against it and don´t have this fear like Hermione has? Don´t they care? Don´t they know Dumbledore is away? Don´t they know how evil Umbridge is? Don´t they know Voldemort is back?

[sone]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472526#post472526))
But the compromise, such as it was, was made almost entirely on Harry's terms. He made it clear he wasn't going to wait, no matter what ("if you can think of a way of doing this quickly, I'm with you, otherwise I'm going to the Department of Mysteries right now--"). And the "thanks" wasn't particularly gracious, nor did it mark any real change in his attitude ("what did you think, we're going to wait until after dinner or something? Hermione, Sirius is being tortured right now!") Hermione, on the other hand, seemed so convinced Harry was overreacting ("we'll sneak into the office and you can talk to Sirius--"), she felt she could afford to indulge him for the moment. Neither of them really got through to the other, particularly to the point of respecting the other's concerns. They just seemed determined to get on with it, whatever "it" might have been.


Their compromise was made on both their own terms. Harry and Hermione did not have to do what they did. I already pointed out that they did not change their opinion about whether Sirius was in trouble or not, but they did still decided to voluntarily go with the other's idea. That says something considering their stubborness. He did say "thanks". Maybe it was not particularly gracious nor did it mark any real change (he thinks Sirius is going to die, I don't imagine he is going to automatically agree with someone who challenges what he actually sees), but he did mean it.

[Hawk 92]

heychang the 00 Division of HMS Harmony is exactly what you are looking for. And BTW babymars I thought that you were already a 00 member, if not there are still a couple of 00 postions if you're interested. Sharks are welcome in the 00 branch. :cool:

Now Back on Topic,

But the compromise, such as it was, was made almost entirely on Harry's terms. He made it clear he wasn't going to wait, no matter what ("if you can think of a way of doing this quickly, I'm with you, otherwise I'm going to the Department of Mysteries right now--"). And the "thanks" wasn't particularly gracious, nor did it mark any real change in his attitude ("what did you think, we're going to wait until after dinner or something? Hermione, Sirius is being tortured right now!") Hermione, on the other hand, seemed so convinced Harry was overreacting ("we'll sneak into the office and you can talk to Sirius--"), she felt she could afford to indulge him for the moment. Neither of them really got through to the other, particularly to the point of respecting the other's concerns. They just seemed determined to get on with it, whatever "it" might have been.

Sorry have to disagree here. I mean lets face it we're not talking about what to get on a pizza. This is serious. Harry's temper is up and he's ready to explode and I don't see how Hermione wanting Harry to check if Sirius is at Headquarters is an indulgence. She wanted to make sure that it wasn't a trap.

And no the thanks wasn't particulary gracious but he did go from yelling to muttering to talking. Then he went back to yelling. But his attitude did calm down for that period and its because of Hermione.

Cheers!

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by Hawk 92 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472818#post472818))
Sorry have to disagree here. I mean lets face it we're not talking about what to get on a pizza. This is serious. Harry's temper is up and he's ready to explode and I don't see how Hermione wanting Harry to check if Sirius is at Headquarters is an indulgence. She wanted to make sure that it wasn't a trap.

Bear with me, Hawk, because I'm not sure you're going to like this interpretation. I don't think I particularly like it myself.

The reason I say that wanting to check Grimmauld Place was an indulgence on Hermione's part is that she didn't take it seriously. She was completely, unshakeably convinced Harry's fears were unfounded. Otherwise, how could she have justified sending Harry alone into what might well have proved a trap in itself? She had no way of knowing Voldemort hadn't gotten Sirius from inside Headquarters itself. Moreover, in her attempt to prove the threat imaginary, she exposed Harry to a very real adversary--Professor Umbridge. Not nearly as much of a problem as Voldemort, granted, but a complication nonetheless.

I'm sure Hermione felt she was looking out for Harry's best interests. But I think she was also partially in denial. She believed the danger to be distant. She thought as long as Harry didn't put itself directly in its path, he would be okay. If she truly understood the danger posed by Voldemort better than Ron or Ginny, as FlyingPhoenix suggested, she'd have known he was directly in its path, no matter where he went or what he did.

And subconsciously, perhaps there was a bit of a desire to say "I told you so" when Harry sheepishly came back to report Sirius was okay (as he undoubtedly would).

Like I said, I don't like it either. But the more I think about it, the more Hermione's allegedly altruistic assessment of Harry's needs bothers me. There's plenty of willful blindness on both sides.

[GilyAnn]

The reason I say that wanting to check Grimmauld Place was an indulgence on Hermione's part is that she didn't take it seriously. She was completely, unshakeably convinced Harry's fears were unfounded. Otherwise, how could she have justified sending Harry alone into what might well have proved a trap in itself? She had no way of knowing Voldemort hadn't gotten Sirius from inside Headquarters itself. Moreover, in her attempt to prove the threat imaginary, she exposed Harry to a very real adversary--Professor Umbridge. Not nearly as much of a problem as Voldemort, granted, but a complication nonetheless.

I'm sure Hermione felt she was looking out for Harry's best interests. But I think she was also partially in denial. She believed the danger to be distant. She thought as long as Harry didn't put itself directly in its path, he would be okay. If she truly understood the danger posed by Voldemort better than Ron or Ginny, as FlyingPhoenix suggested, she'd have known he was directly in its path, no matter where he went or what he did.

If I understood you correctly Rowena. I'll have to agree with you. Harry wasn't pleased with Hermione's plan inclusive he was angry at her and ready to release his anger on her for her plan failing. Harry was going to meet Voldemort anyway. Again the whole thing would not have happend if Dumbledore would have used his thick head.

Gily Ann

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Hawk 92 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472331#post472331))
OK your statement is on record. But here you establish it. With Hr/R fighting is the norm and it takes an extreme situation to bring out the compassion. But with H/Hr mutual respect is the norm and it takes extreme situations to bring out the fighting. That is my interpetation. Not more serious or less serious but what is the norm and what happens to disrupt the norm.

Fair enough. But for all the fact that Ron and Hermione bicker they seem to hang out a lot together, and it's rarer for them to be fighting so hard as to not to speak to one another. By the end of the book, Hermione was wanting to talk to Harry about SIrius, and Ron, showing a certain degree of tact and compassion was keeping Hermione from bringing up the subject and she was listening to him.

When was Harry depressed about something that wasn't major? Harry is not the type to get depressed easily. It takes a lot to get him to that state. In short Harry doesn't get depressed over the minor things.

Well, he's been depressed about being passed over for a prefect badge and depressed about being kicked off the Quidditch team. I will grant JKR the benefit of the doubt on the latter one but Hermione clearly didn't try to do anything for Harry when he was passed over for prefect.

Now let me ask you one question, Given the way Hermione does things that she cares about, SPEW and her studies and things like that, you don't think that she's trying to show Harry how much she cares as best she can while still being Hermione?

The problem is that trying to help does not give Hermione the right to trod over Harry's feelings without suffering any consequences for it. Hermione is good at coming up with good advice but she is terrible at delivering advice in a way as to persuade people to follow it. She is not very good at dealing with people. She never tries to make Harry want to follow her advice, she dumps the truth out without trying to make it palatable, without bothering to try to put him into a receptive mood to take his advice. She just tells him what to do and expects him to listen to the Voice of Reason. The fact that she rarely shows consideration for his feelings when giving advice is a major flaw of hers.

Yes, there are a very few times that she does show consideration for his feelings. Most of the time he's shouting at her at full volume or just this side of shouting at her at full volume. In their day to day affairs, she rarely makes the effort to bother to deal with his issues. In fact she often fails to deal with the real issues at all, or give them any feelings. The root of his problems with occlumency lessons were emotional and she never even bothered to try to get at the root of those.

Giving Harry advice he needs is a good way to show that she cares. However she's going to have to make more of an effort to find ways to make it appealing to him or she's going to continue to have the failures in book six that she had in book five. The fact of the matter is that Harry already knows that Hermione's advice is good. He's known that for four years by the time he hit his fifth year. He knows she gives good advice and he still was very bad at following up on her advice. The problem of Harry following Hermione's advice in general isn't a lack of belief that she's right, it's the fact that she tends to irritate him or anger him so that he doesn't want to follow her advice or at best feels guilty but still unmotivated to follow through.

[Ecthelion]

Bear with me, Hawk, because I'm not sure you're going to like this interpretation. I don't think I particularly like it myself.

The reason I say that wanting to check Grimmauld Place was an indulgence on Hermione's part is that she didn't take it seriously. She was completely, unshakeably convinced Harry's fears were unfounded. Otherwise, how could she have justified sending Harry alone into what might well have proved a trap in itself? She had no way of knowing Voldemort hadn't gotten Sirius from inside Headquarters itself. Moreover, in her attempt to prove the threat imaginary, she exposed Harry to a very real adversary--Professor Umbridge. Not nearly as much of a problem as Voldemort, granted, but a complication nonetheless.

Rowena, even though this is for Hawk, I'd like to comment on it myself if you don't mind :)

Ok, I can see where you got this theory from, and it is quite believable, except for a few things. One, she really did not have the whole picture as to what was happening to Harry because he wasn't telling her the whole truth about the dreams, so she had very little to work with. But you were right to bring up the descrepancy about whether or not she was convinced or not. I had never questioned her in that way before. I mean she knew the truth of his vision of Mr. Weasley, yet she was aware of a potential trap. What did she do? She comprimised. She went to check if Sirius was at the Grimmauld Place (she kind of had to expose him to Umbridge here as Floo fire was the only way to communicate with Sirius in a quick fashion. except for that mirror!), which he was apparently not, so proceeded with Harry's plan without further objection. Also, she completely trusts Dumbledore in word and capability and knows he is the secret keeper of #12 Grimmauld Place, so she probably didn't have afterthoughts on whether or not there was danger in seeking Sirius there.

Again the whole thing would not have happend if Dumbledore would have used his thick head.

How true :(

EDIT: Mutant:

Fair enough. But for all the fact that Ron and Hermione bicker they seem to hang out a lot together, and it's rarer for them to be fighting so hard as to not to speak to one another. By the end of the book, Hermione was wanting to talk to Harry about SIrius, and Ron, showing a certain degree of tact and compassion was keeping Hermione from bringing up the subject and she was listening to him.

That's true, they did hang out with each other a lot more this year and have not bickered as much, or at least Harry hasn't noticed it as much. However, with Hermione being held back by Ron, is that the right thing to do anyways? Sooner or later he is going to have to thoroughly talk about Sirius' death. When Ron pulled Hermione back from talking about it, it was a fair time away from the initial death, so Harry may have been prepared to look at it in the face. I'm not sure that Ron did Harry a favor.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by Ecthelion (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=473008#post473008))
One, she really did not have the whole picture as to what was happening to Harry because he wasn't telling her the whole truth about the dreams, so she had very little to work with.

Point taken, though that raises the issue of why he didn't feel comfortable confiding the whole truth.

She went to check if Sirius was at the Grimmauld Place (she kind of had to expose him to Umbridge here as Floo fire was the only way to communicate with Sirius in a quick fashion. except for that mirror!), which he was apparently not, so proceeded with Harry's plan without further objection. Also, she completely trusts Dumbledore in word and capability and knows he is the secret keeper of #12 Grimmauld Place, so she probably didn't have afterthoughts on whether or not there was danger in seeking Sirius there.

Good point about her trust in Dumbledore, though I still think that was a risky assumption on her part if she'd fully accepted the danger posed by Voldemort.

And still, why involve Harry directly? Why not offer to go herself? Or send Ginny, if she didn't trust the others' ability to keep an eye on Harry while she was gone? Because she knew Harry wouldn't agree to put anyone else in "danger"? If so, she'd already conceded the main point of her argument. She wasn't compromising; she was trying to win a concession from Harry.

[MoF]

Fair enough. But for all the fact that Ron and Hermione bicker they seem to hang out a lot together

- Where do you see them hanging out that much? Are you talking about the time in the summer where they were alone in Grimmauld Place?
Or their prefect duties? Because i don't really that it is evidence of their desire to hang out with each other.

The problem is that trying to help does not give Hermione the right to trod over Harry's feelings without suffering any consequences for it

- Hmmm. It seems like this discussion is going in circles. Why is it that you think she is trodding on his feelings? She becomes really anxious whenever their arguments become heated. SHe is desribed as on the verge of tears in thoes arguments, except for the important ones such as if Harry should continue occlumency or go to the DoM. These matters are so important that Hermione don't care about Harrys opinions, because she thinks them life-essential to Harry. She lets her concern for him overrule her desire to be nice to him, whereas Ron always agrees because he doesn't wnat to bicker with Harry. In the end, Harry admits that she is right. After all, if he had listened to Hermione, his godfather might not be dead.

And still, why involve Harry directly? Why not offer to go herself?

- Harry is our main character, it would be odd for him not to do it herself. After all, Harry is closer to Sirius, and the story would be awkward as we, the readers, wouldn't have the chance to see it for ourselves if Hermione had stuck her head in the fireplace.

[SeniorFishy]

I do believe that Harry and Ginny have a certain number of things going for them. They seem to be both preety intelligent and powerful wizards, both seem to be really brave, and both are very good fliers. Ginny has time and time shown her ability as a witch on several occasions. Her Bat-Bogey hexes are mentioned several times as been quite impressive.

Ginny's bravery has also been shown through a number of scenes. She is also not afraid to stand up to Harry and tell him that he's being a moron. Furthermore she has a certain careless approach of doing things, in tune with Harry's heroic weakness.

The book also mentions Ginny's ability as a seeker. We all know that Harry is one of the best seekers the school has seen and this is just another place where Ginny matches up well with Harry.

The biggest problem for Harry and Ginny in my opinion is the whole best friends sister problem. This might only be a problem for me but I would totally discourage any dating of your best friends sister.

On a side note I'm not sure if Mutant has read the same book as I have. His/her views about Hermione are so far fetched it is ridiculous. Harry and Hermione don't argue much and are usually almost always thinking in the same direction. They are best friends and Hermione cares for Harry immensely. It has been mentioned over and over again about Hermiones obscession about Harry. Her life is centered around Harry and without him she'd be a completely different person. Hermione IS the person she is because of Harry. Her character has grown into what she is now because of her relationship with Harry.

[McKinnon02]

Senior Fishy, I like your name. :) However, I disagree that Harry is the exclusive center of Hermione's universe- that belongs to other things as well, such as homework. :lol:

[sone]

Not the exclusive center but undoubtedly Hermione is very fond of Harry.

[evaluna]

SeniorFishy:
"The biggest problem for Harry and Ginny in my opinion is the whole best friends sister problem. This might only be a problem for me but I would totally discourage any dating of your best friends sister."

Also the fact that Harry might have these exact same things in common with many other people and not just Griffindors. Certainly bravery is admirable, but his female quidditch teammates who are also DA members can fly well and are likely very brave, even thought we are not specifically aware of their level of wizarding skills. Even Cho was brave enough to stand up for the DA and voiced her criticism of and disagreement with Harry to his face, and she managed a patronus as well. My point is that sports and leisure or even wizarding skills are not the basis for a serious relationship. Likewise, a checklist of similar leisure activities and motor skills [flying? let's be serious…], or even personality traits alone are frankly not enough to guarantee a match between two people. Many share these traits but don't connect further. There must be more. There must be attraction, respect, honesty and trust, and compatible values and personalities to form a deeper connection, to love. These things come to exist between certain persons and not others, and they can't be made to order.

Therefore whilst Ginny has really come into her own, and might potentially be available between boyfriends, it's not enough to guarantee interest on Harry's side. Yes potentially there could be something. This holds true for many others as well as Ginny, however. Particularly since Harry hasn't given Ginny a thought, not once, unless she was presented or presented herself in the conversation. Thus clearly Harry not evinced any feelings of attraction toward her physically or otherwise. If there is a relationship, it'll be starting from less than ground zero on Harry's side, since he's only barely gotten to know her as a friend in OoP and even that needs more time to develop. This is the same as any relationship between Ron and Hermione starting from ground zero on Hermione's side [not less than zero, though - since at least they've been good enough friends for several years, though not the closest friends as each is with Harry - well perhaps less than zero after all, since they don't consistently treat each other with respect]. Anything could happen on H/G [and R/Hr], but IMO there's not time enough for anything deep between these characters.

Additionally, I think Harry's matured and is now past the crush stage, where he could form at least some superficial level of attachment based on knowing very little of the person [as with Cho]. He saw how ill-suited they were despite "looking good on paper" i.e. the checklist, once Harry got past her looks and got to know her better. The point being that in future, Harry is almost sure to be involved only with someone he's already first gotten to know and trust and respect very well. I think that was the entire point of the crush, as it is with real life as well, to prepare for something more, something real. IMO, JKR is not going to match Harry up with someone based on a checklist of traits or leisure preferences but rather as I mention on the basis of attraction, respect, honesty and trust, and compatible values and personalities. Harry is deep [though unexamined in some areas], complex, and intense, and he's in process of becoming much more self-aware regarding his place in the world. I don't see crushes in his future.

[FlyingPhoenix]

If she truly understood the danger posed by Voldemort better than Ron or Ginny, as FlyingPhoenix suggested, she'd have known he was directly in its path, no matter where he went or what he did.

Not exactly I thought its clear that Hogwarts is by side of Gringrotts the savest place in the magic world. I get slightly, Hey what I´m saying, I have this feeling this are things which you seems to forget. First do some of you forget what we all learned in PS/SS. There is clearly written as long Dumbledore is on hogwarts nobody would harm Harry. Even Dumbledore isn´t around Hogwarts is still the savest place. That say there can people harm Harry like Umbridge who wanted use a unforgivable curse against him but still people from outside can reach him. That say no deatheater or Voldemort in person.

Mind reading isn´t like Harry couldn´t decide by his own what he dos. He don´t need to listen to his dreams. That is what Hermione might know. She know that Harrys dreams are possed because she trust Dumbledore. If he said to Harry he should train his mind than for sure because this mind reading went in the other direction. Hermione is smart enough to get that picture.
Thats why she annoy Harry that often about this dreams. She even ask Ron out about Harry. She seems to very worried in this last ten chapters. Because in the subtext there are pretty many signs that her conversation with Ron is mainly about Harry. First she say to Ron he should go after Harry, than she ask Ron about Harrys dreams and debatt with Ron what did happen to Hedwig.

That suggest that Hermione has indeed fears what could happen to Harry, that Voldemort is something planing. But still there is a possible that Sirius could be at the DoM though Hermione has her doubts. Why dos she go with Harry into Umbridge office and not Luna or Ginny or Ron. Thats simple because nobody from them has doubts. Nobody of them did argue with Harry. Thats what friends do after such a fight. They don´t run away and say I look after Umbridge. Hermione wanted show her surport though she has a different opinion about if Sirius is in the DoM or not. By the way for me was it from the beginning as Harry had this dream wrong that Sirius was there because that don´t make any sense. You don´t need to be that smart or that know it all to get this tiny wink. But Ron again didn´t say his opinion though he should know it better.

Nobody seems to think that Rons behaviour is strange and more wrong as Hermiones? Before OotP in COS as Harry could parsel who was it who said this isn´t good. Who was scepticel and on Hermiones side? Ron. Thats what I did like on him but now he say to everything yeah and amen though he should know it better. For heaven sack his father works at the ministery. Who was it and said always my dad this and my brother did that, my dad say this always, He dos that? Again Ron.

That is what I mean the only person who really tells him her opinion is Hermione. Who really still stand there where she always did stand. Though he might yell at her and misunderstand her. She don´t change her doing just because of fears he could yell at her or even hurt her feelings.

[Ecthelion]

Ron and Hermione's Quality Time

To get right to it, the way they talk to each other says they haven't really gotten closer to each other. They just reached a point where they accept each other better. I think the quality time Hr/Rer's are saying Hermione is spending with Ron at the Grimmauld Place was relatively non-existant, rather, Hermione's quality time was with Ginny while Ron's went with Fred and George. Both groups showed signs of closer ties throughout the book. Hermione expressed an uncommon variety of knowledge of Ginny's doings and Ron was seen in the company of Fred and George more often than ever. If Ron and hermione for some reason spent time together, it was either at mealtimes, or the reason they were where they are right now.....Harry.

This I think pretains to their time spent together during school. They were probably together because Harry once again had isolated himself and they were left alone. Thereupon, they merely settled boack into the mode they were in at #12 Grimmauld Place. I doubt anything really happened between them besides a strengthening of ties brought out by the sole reason that Harry had left them and they were forced to cope with each other. However, they obviously didn't bond to much for because Hermione consistantly shows her strong distaste of Ron in an alarmingly nasty tone.

[MoF]

I think the quality time Hr/Rer's are saying Hermione is spending with Ron at the Grimmauld Place was relatively non-existant

- Migt be, or might no be. The fact is, we don't have very many clues as to what happened there. Therefore, anybody speculating in this, is purely speculating. R/Hr'ers might say they kissed each other all over the place, and H/Hr'ers might say they did nothing but handing out bruises and injuries to each other.

[MagicianGirl]

I don't know if somebody has pointed this out already but isn't it interesting that the characters that JK put an empasis w/ regards to their lovelife in Ootp are Harry & Ginny?? Harry is understandable since he's the main character but to put an effort to write about Ginny's lovelife instead of either Ron or Hermione is interesting. I love Ginny she's one of my fave but for someone who flitted in & out of the previous book her lovelife has been discussed in this book

[Ecthelion]

- Migt be, or might no be. The fact is, we don't have very many clues as to what happened there. Therefore, anybody speculating in this, is purely speculating. R/Hr'ers might say they kissed each other all over the place, and H/Hr'ers might say they did nothing but handing out bruises and injuries to each other.

I see where you're coming from, but surely, if they had developed anything somewhat intimate, Hermione wouldn't be so snappish and inconsiderate to Ron? And of course, this is mostly speculation derived from observation. Although, there is some evidence, there has been quite few signs that Hermione spent a lot of time with Ginny at the Grimmauld place, which would say that she spent less time with Ron than we think. And Ron was seen with Fred and George more than before, which would say that in turn, he spent more time with them, instead of Hermione. I know there wasn't a lot of solid proof to go with this theory, but there was enough to form a basis. I just thought something about their time together should be said.

[haycheng]

They probably have more time together, due to Harry withdraw from everyone. However, I do not see any major improvement between their relationship, so I would believe the quality is not as high as we hope. I still do not think too much have come out of it.

[GilyAnn]

Thats simple because nobody from them has doubts. Nobody of them did argue with Harry. Thats what friends do after such a fight. They don´t run away and say I look after Umbridge.

Excuse me? The idea that Ginny and Luna look for Umbridge was Hermione's not Ginny's. The idea of creating a diversion was Hermione's. Others simply help on her idea.

'Wait,' said Hermione suddenly. 'Wait… Harry, they can help.'
Harry and Ron looked at her.

'Listen,' she said urgently, 'Harry, we need to establish whether Sirius really has left Headquarters.'

'I've told you, I saw -'

'Harry, I'm begging you, please!' said Hermione desperately. 'Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear 1 won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d - do whatever it takes to try and save him.'
'Sirius is being tortured NOW!' shouted Harry. 'We haven't got time to waste.'

'But if this is a trick of Voldemort's, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to.'

'How?' Harry demanded. 'How're we going to check?'

'We'll have to use Umbridge's fire and see if we can contact him,' said Hermione, who looked positively terrified at the thought. 'We'll draw Umbridge away again, but we'll need lookouts, and that's where we can use Ginny and Luna.'

Though clearly struggling to understand what was going on, Ginny said immediately, 'Yeah, we'll do it,' and Luna said, 'When you say "Sirius", are you talking about Stubby Boardman?'

Nobody answered her.

'OK,' Harry said aggressively to Hermione, 'OK, if you can think of a way of doing this quickly, I'm with you, otherwise I'm going to the Department of Mysteries right now.'

Hermione wanted show her surport though she has a different opinion about if Sirius is in the DoM or not. By the way for me was it from the beginning as Harry had this dream wrong that Sirius was there because that don´t make any sense. You don´t need to be that smart or that know it all to get this tiny wink. But Ron again didn´t say his opinion though he should know it better.

Ron took both sides of the argument. First Hermione's and then Harry's. Ron express that Harry had a point in the whole thing, but at first he doubt that they should go. Harry's dreams were at that moment REAL. Voldemort first gave Harry a dose of real dreams to then place the fake one. Harry had no reason to doubt that his dreams were not real and that Dumbledore wanted him to block the dreams because of it so he couldn't see what was going on. He had seen the place, see the door and everything on the papers and everything else. Confirmed that what Harry was seeing was real!

'I dunno how,' said Harry. 'But I know exactly where. There's a room in the Department of Mysteries full of shelves covered in these little glass balls and they're at the end of row ninety-seven… he's trying to use Sirius to get whatever it is he wants from in there… he's torturing him… says he'll end by killing him!'

Harry found his voice was shaking, as were his knees. He moved over to a desk and sat down on it, trying to master himself.

'How're we going to get there?' he asked them.

There was a moment's silence. Then Ron said, 'G-get there?'

'Get to the Department of Mysteries, so we can rescue Sirius!' Harry said loudly.

'But - Harry…' said Ron weakly.

'What? What?' said Harry.

He could not understand why they were both gaping at him as though he was asking them something unreasonable.

'Harry,' said Hermione in a rather frightened voice, 'er… how… how did Voldemort get into the Ministry of Magic without anybody realising he was there?'

'How do I know?' bellowed Harry. The question is how we're going to get in there!'

'But… Harry, think about this,' said Hermione, taking a step towards him, 'it's five o'clock in the afternoon… the Ministry of Magic must be full of workers… how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry… they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world… you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?'
'I dunno, Voldemort used an Invisibility Cloak or something!' Harry shouted. 'Anyway, the Department of Mysteries has always been completely empty whenever I've been -'

'You've never been there, Harry,' said Hermione quietly. 'You've dreamed about the place, that's all.'

They're not normal dreams!' Harry shouted in her face, standing up and taking a step closer to her in turn. He wanted to shake her. 'How d'you explain Ron's dad then, what was all that about, how come I knew what had happened to him?'

'He's got a point,' said Ron quietly, looking at Hermione.



'But this is just — just so unlikely*.' said Hermione desperately. 'Harry, how on earth could Voldemort have got hold of Sirius when he's been in Grimmauld Place all the time?'

'Sirius might've cracked and just wanted some fresh air,' said Ron, sounding worried. 'He's been desperate to get out of that house for ages -'

'But why,' Hermione persisted, 'why on earth would Voldemort want to use Sirius to get the weapon, or whatever the thing is?'

'I dunno, there could be loads of reasons!' Harry yelled at her. 'Maybe Sirius is just someone Voldemort doesn't care about seeing hurt -'
'You know what, I've just thought of something,' said Ron in a hushed voice. 'Sirius's brother was a Death Eater, wasn't he? Maybe he told Sirius the secret of how to get the weapon!'

'Yeah - and that's why Dumbledore's been so keen to keep Sirius locked up all the time!' said Harry.

'Look, I'm sorry,' cried Hermione, 'but neither of you is making sense, and we've got no proof for any of this, no proof Voldemort and Sirius are even there -'

'Hermione, Harrys seen them!' said Ron, rounding on her.

- Where do you see them hanging out that much? Are you talking about the time in the summer where they were alone in Grimmauld Place?

Ron and Hermione do spend a lot of time toguether. They plan and talk about the DA assotiation. They partner each other at DA meetings leaving Harry to partner Neville. Leave the meeting for Harry to kiss Cho. They do prefect duties, sit by the fire waiting for Harry or in the best seats in the common Room, doing homework toguether, talking about Harry, deciding what to tell Harry on their letters. I think it's was clear to me that they do spend a lot of times toguether. Please don't say that they don't spend time toguether because they do. In fact every time that Harry finds them they are mostly toguether. There are even parts were they have clearly spoke to each other before talking to Harry.

Gily Ann

[evaluna]

GilyAnn: As others have probably said, however, you appear to have made a rather large omission. In every single case you describe [except prefect duties, per appointment by Dumbledore, not by mutual choice], Harry is central to these activities involving Ron and Hermione:
That is...

EITHER
Harry is the instigator re: DA in that as instructor for DA he mostly oversees all the other pairs; also their [hr/r] pairing is practice for live combat, similar to harry & ron in GoF -- not romantic -- + Neville was added]
OR
Harry is the focus or reason for their discussion [his dreams, their letters, etc]
AND
I can't recall any time when Ron and Hermione were doing homework together. Either Harry was also present or they were each doing they own homework whilst waiting for Harry. Hermione made a big deal this book about not even letting them copy, so she wasn't working directly with either, as I recall. Except toward book's end when she asked Harry to help her review for an exam.

Again, detail is important but so is context. If I've overlooked something pls inform as I don't the books at hand right this moment.
Cheers!

[EricaM]

Ron and Hermione do spend a lot of time toguether.

Why is it when Harry and Hermione do things together (projects, Harry helping quiz Hermione, Hermione asking Harry to knit socks) it's a manifestation of their friendship but if Ron and Hermione spend time together it's an indication of the romantic feelings they have for one another?

I don't doubt that Ron and Hermione are together when Harry is, for whatever reason, unavailable, but they don't make an effort to spend time together (at least Hermione doesn't) when Harry *is* available. Hermione could have chosen to remain at the part with Ron (sans Harry) but she didn't (afterall, what's a little lack of sleep to a besotted teenager?), she could have asked Ron to help with the knitting but she didn't . Ron and Hermione spending time together is nothing out of the ordinary for the remaining two of a trio a friends to do when one of their 'rank' is missing, right?

They plan and talk about the DA assotiation.

No they don't. Although,Ron did help 'round up' people for the first meeting (so did Ginny btw), Hermione does not include Ron in her planning of aspects with the DA association, else Ron would have had fore knowledge of the jinxed 'sign up' form, and the plasma-charmed galleon, etc.

They partner each other at DA meetings leaving Harry to partner Neville.

Again, is this becuase they love one another and want to spend every single moment of time together, or is it because they are friends and when Harry is occupied (with actually instructing the class) they gravitate towards each other.? If partnering in DA is indicative of R/Hr whats to be assumed by the partnering in Potions class?

Leave the meeting for Harry to kiss Cho.

It was actually Cho who kissed Harry. I also don't believe that they knew, any of them (well, maybe Cho did) that Harry was going to be kissed. Upon his return did Harry find Ron and Hermione on the floor with theirs heads together, Hermione helping Ron with his homework?
Hermione had the opportunity of half an hour alone with Ron, did she work to advance her case with him? No, she spends the time writing a novel to Krum.

They do prefect duties, sit by the fire waiting for Harry or in the best seats in the common Room, doing homework toguether, talking about Harry, deciding what to tell Harry on their letters. I think it's was clear to me that they do spend a lot of times toguether. Please don't say that they don't spend time toguether because they do. In fact every time that Harry finds them they are mostly toguether. There are even parts were they have clearly spoke to each other before talking to Harry

Again, is this behaviour borne out of romantic love for one another, or because they are simply two of a trio waiting together for the third?

Cheers
Erica

[Mutant for Hire]

My belief is that JKR laid the first cornerstone for a Harry/Ginny relationship in book five, with the scene in the library. Actually, she laid the first stone when Ginny reminded Harry she was an expert on being possessed by Voldemort, but I tend to see the library scene as more significant. Let us review what happened in detail.

Harry was sitting in the library depressed and lost in his own thoughts. He had found out his father was an arrogant berk in the pensive, that Snape was in fact right and even deserved some sympathy, which really shook Harry's worldview. He really needed to talk to Sirius about this. It wasn't important in any practical scheme of things. It had nothing to do with the visions he was getting, Umbridge or the smear campaign against him with the Ministry, it was just a matter of personal importance to Harry, emotionally important rather than practically important.

He had not even said he wanted to talk to Sirius to Ron or Hermione. As to why, Harry usually does not look to Ron for solutions to problems. He looks to Ron for support and assistance. Hermione is a better candidate as the genius of the trio, but he didn't go to her because he knew exactly what her response would be. He knew that response because of the last time he had told Hermione he was going to contact Sirius when the situation was less dangerous. She told him not to do it. She didn't even bother to ask why he wanted to contact Sirius, she just told him not to do it and didn't even bother to try to help him find a safe way to contact Sirius (such as going to Dumbledore or McGonagall).

This time, with Dumbledore out of the picture, Umbridge in charge and the situation even more serious, he knew that she would not have any fewer objections. And given the way that Hermione tended to tell him what to do and being afraid she'd criticize him for even wanting to talk to Sirius, as well as possibly another comment about his unreliability and living through Harry. Is it any wonder he didn't bother to confide in her? He was likely also afraid if he told Ron, Ron would tell Hermione. Ron had already been leaking Harry's nightmares to Hermione.

So he felt it was hopeless and just sat there being miserable. Now Ginny did come to see him more about easter egg gifts, but she had noticed he was depressed for a while and she did try to offer advice, suggesting he talk to Cho. When he corrected her, she simply asked him who he wanted to talk to.

Why did Harry talk to Ginny, who he knew very little of, as opposed to Hermione who he knew for years and had a formidable reputation for genius? Because his history with her worked against her. He knew what her response would be and it was not what he wanted, and for that matter, it probably wasn't what he needed either. Harry was torn up inside emotionally and needed to talk to Sirius. He had no reason to expect that Ginny would lay into him, and he really needed someone to talk to. I think it was internal pressure that made him open up, but that internal pressure was not enough against his fear of Hermione's response. Without that, he was able to open up to even a near-stranger like Ginny.

And Ginny listened to Harry and simply said that if he really needed to talk to Sirius, they'd think of a way to do it. A completely different response from what Hermione would have given (and did give the last time and when she heard about it later). Ginny gave Harry the help he really needed. Or at least offered to help Harry when he really needed it.

She didn't ask why, and I think that she actually understood in rough terms why Harry needed to talk to his godfather. She knew how much Sirius meant to Harry and given that Harry was acting so depressed, he likely wanted to talk to his godfather about some personal problem, whatever was making him depressed. Ginny wanted Harry to cheer up and must have figured that talking to Sirius would help and so she offered to assist him.

When Harry tried to shoot down his own wish, Ginny was the one who gave him the reassurance that it was possible. And broke through his depression in the process. She gave him hope in a situation that he felt was hopeless. That is a very useful trait to demonstrate, given what lies in Harry's future. Given how hopeless the battle against Voldemort is going to look, I suspect that Ginny might yet need to do that again for Harry in the future.

And that was the real core of the help that Ginny gave him. In fact it was Harry himself who came up with the real core of the plan to contact Sirius, using the knife to get into Umbridge's office. All Ginny did was get Fred and George to provide a distraction. The important thing was that Harry stopped thinking of his situation as hopeless and started thinking it could be beaten, and Ginny was directly responsible for that.

Hermione's reaction afterwards was not good, and for that matter, her reaction demonstrated some limits of hers. She never bothered to ask why Harry wanted to contact Sirius, what was so important that he needed to talk to his godfather. She never even tried to find a safer way for Harry to contact Sirius, even when there was a way available (McGonagall). Admittedly, Ginny didn't ask either, she just saw that Harry needed to speak to Sirius and tried to give him what he needed.

I will digress and say that Hermione is not the only one in the book who attempts to give what Harry needs. Ginny also has a record of giving Harry what he needs. He needed to hear her out on her own experience with possession, and he needed help going into the Ministry, even if he didn't want to talk to her the first time and didn't want her coming along the second time. Both times she faced resistance and did what she felt was right.

In both cases I think she did fairly well in dealing with Harry, even if she did call him stupid the first time. For all she did that, he calmed down and apologized to her and was very eager to listen to her. In the second case she kept cool, calm and collected and was not trying to be an obstacle. She didn't even tell him what to do. She just said that she was going to wait for more thestrials to show up. And they did. Harry gave in with remarkable speed.

And in the library she saw, where Hermione did not see later, that Harry needed to contact Sirius for his own emotional well being. If anything I think Ginny demonstrated a better understanding than Hermione on Harry's needs in that particular instance. Hermione only saw the danger, she didn't understand that Harry himself saw the danger but had a strong enough need to make him want to take the chance anyway.

To say that Hermione demonstrated a better understanding overall is to ignore the fact that Ginny had fewer opportunities to demonstrate any understanding. The other times, Ginny never had an opportunity to get involved and take a position. On the three times that she did get seriously involved, twice she and Hermione were on the same side and the one time that they came down on different sides, I think Ginny was the one who had the right position, not Hermione. Harry wasn't precisely comforted by the talk, but Sirius and Remus were able to give Harry some perspective.

Going forward, even if Harry finally realized the solidarity and loyalty that Hermione showed, the question is whether or not he's going to be any less reluctant to talk to her. Something to remember is that the reason he avoids her is because he doesn't like the way she scolds him or nags him, especially when he's already in a bad mood. Has his realization changed at all the way that he reacts emotionally to her scolding? He already knows she tells him the right advice, in fact half the time I'd say he already knew what he should be doing even before Hermione talked to him, or at least what she'd say. Unless Hermione softens her delivery, he's not going to be any more willing to talk to her.

Ginny, on the other hand, Harry has fewer reservations about talking to now. The one time he unburdened himself, she didn't take his head off or made him feel like an idiot. She cheered him up and gave him the help that he needed, which was mainly to lift his spirits. The diversion also proved of use. Even if he's still reluctant to take her into a dangerous situation, that's not the same as going to her when he needs someone to talk to. Someone he's not expecting to be scolded by in return.

So I think Harry is going to start going to Ginny more often in the future when he needs someone to talk to, not Ron or Hermione. The way that Ron was leaking information to Hermione about Harry's nightmares, and making Harry lie about his nightmares to Ron as well as Hermione, indicates that there are some conditions now in the trust department. And I see Ginny working more to bolster Harry's spirits than anything else. If intellectual genius is needed, they'll go to Hermione, but in general after Ginny has helped Harry emotionally. Why do I see this? Because he already went to her once and felt better for it. A precedent has been set.

Ginny has other advantages as well, and admittedly they're not entirely fair ones to Hermione. Ginny is on the Quidditch team and likely as not, Harry and Ginny will be spending time together playing Quidditch, one of the joys of Harry's life. That does give Ginny an unfair advantage.

Why? Because Harry will be spending time doing something fun with Ginny, even if there are five other people hanging around. What Harry does with Hermione is important but dull, namely the subject of homework. Ginny is going to be involved in the fun part of his life while Hermione gets stuck with the tedious part of Harry's life. It doesn't hurt that Harry can talk Quidditch with Ginny where he can't with Hermione. And a couple needs fun things to talk about as well as the serious issues.

Yes, technically its unfair. Hermione is being the responsible one and giving Harry serious help with his academics while Ginny's there for the fun and exciting part. But realistically Harry is more likely to start looking forward to time with Ginny than time with Hermione as a result. And its not quite entirely unfair. Harry needs fun from a girlfriend more than practical stuff. He'll get the practical stuff from Hermione whether or not he's her boyfriend or not. A girlfriend is there to have fun with, to help him feel better about his life, and similar issues.

In book five, Hermione's main effort to add fun to Harry's life was to try to hook him up with Cho. There's very little that she directly tried to do to add something to his life. I think of all the things that Harry associates with Hermione, fun is near the bottom fo the list. And now that I'm looking harder at some of the evidence, I would not be shocked if Hermione makes an effort to see that Harry and Ginny spend time together. Things like getting the four of them together and then dragging Ron off.

Also, one of the reasons that Harry and Hermione spent a bit of time together in this book without Ron was due to the fact that Ron was on the Quidditch team and Harry was not, what I tend to think was a temporary thing. That is going to change next year and Hermione of the four is going to be the only one not on the team. Expect Hermione's average time with Harry, especially Harry by himself to drop.

[MagicianGirl]

Excellent post Mutant for Hire:clappy: I agree that JK laid the foundation of H/G in book 5. You really nailed down the library scene;)

[Daveydee]

Evaluna,

Would you care to reduce the text size in the post at the top of this page, so that it can be read. There's really no need to go to such lengths; your arguments generally speak for themselves. Thanks.

[EricaM]

And Ginny listened to Harry and simply said that if he really needed to talk to Sirius, they'd think of a way to do it. A completely different response from what Hermione would have given (and did give the last time and when she heard about it later). Ginny gave Harry the help he really needed. Or at least offered to help Harry when he really needed it.

I think that Ginny gave Harry the help her really *wanted* but not what he really *needed*. It's the familiar deciding between what is easy and what is right. It's true that Ginny, with the twins arranged for Harry the opportunity to talk with Sirius, but in actually fact, it just drove another nail in the coffin wrt Umbridges ultimate capture of the Scoobie Gang (Umbridge is now on the lookout for Harry using her fireplace).

I think that, though there is development of Ginny in OotP which definitely supports a potential H/G pairing, the likelihood of it every happening was eclipsed by Hermione's part in OotP. It could have been Ginny objecting to Umbridges torturing of Harry, it could have been she who lead Umbridge into the Forbidden Forest, but it wasn't. Even in the MoM when Harry and the rest of the Scoobie Gang surrounded Ginny , Harry stood in front of *her* and yet, when his foot went wandering to find a confederate to put a plant into action, it found *Hermione*. Harry knew where Hermione was and he knew where Ginny was, yet it was Hermione that he 'instictually' grabbed and pulled away from the rain of shattered glass.

Erica

P.S.
There's really no need to go to such lengths; your arguments generally speak for themselves. Thanks.

Daveydee, I could be wrong, but I don't believe that evaluna set her font to that size (intentially). It's happend to me that fonts go wonky on the cutting and pasting.

[GilyAnn]

Ron and Hermione do spend a lot of time toguether. They plan and talk about the DA assotiation. They partner each other at DA meetings leaving Harry to partner Neville. Leave the meeting for Harry to kiss Cho. They do prefect duties, sit by the fire waiting for Harry or in the best seats in the common Room, doing homework toguether, talking about Harry, deciding what to tell Harry on their letters. I think it's was clear to me that they do spend a lot of times toguether. Please don't say that they don't spend time toguether because they do. In fact every time that Harry finds them they are mostly toguether. There are even parts were they have clearly spoke to each other before talking to Harry.


Above my post, please tell me where in my post I said that any of this was romantic? It was said they don't spend time toguether. Do tell me where did I put that any of this is romantic. And they do spend time toguether simply because they choosed too. Just because H/Hr shippers dont' want R/Hr to be friends or don't see that they choosed to spend time toguether because they want to. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Gily Ann

[FlyingPhoenix]

Excuse me? The idea that Ginny and Luna look for Umbridge was Hermione's not Ginny's. The idea of creating a diversion was Hermione's. Others simply help on her idea. Did I say Ginny had the idea? Did I say Ginny did command the others around? No, to be exactly I did say why Hermione sort herself together with Harry not more and not less. If Hermione did sort herself to that what Ron later dos that is like running away and look after Umbridge and not stand by side of Harry with who she had only seconds before a big arguement. That shows clearly that she is on his side even they argue with each other. Thats my point and I didn´t implied that Ginny, by the way Ron did look after Umbridge, would run away. He didn´t has this argument with Harry.
There is still tension between them and still she sort herself together with Harry though it would be quiet understandable if she gos after Umbridge or check the corridors. They are still able to work with each other. And don´t tell me Harry wasn´t angry enough to avoid her present.




Ron took both sides of the argument. First Hermione's and then Harry's. Ron express that Harry had a point in the whole thing, but at first he doubt that they should go. Harry's dreams were at that moment REAL. Voldemort first gave Harry a dose of real dreams to then place the fake one. Harry had no reason to doubt that his dreams were not real and that Dumbledore wanted him to block the dreams because of it so he couldn't see what was going on. He had seen the place, see the door and everything on the papers and everything else. Confirmed that what Harry was seeing was real!

That might be the first sight but if I look at the whole conversation you might see that as fast as Harry starts to shoot as fast is Ron suddenly at Harrys side. Its exactly like by the Weasley twins or earlier as Harry startet again with shooting. Ron don´t stand against Harry up and don´t has his own opinion.
And there is exactly where Hermione starts with her argument Harry has this saving people thing as Ron comes up with this strange theory this one sound in the sameway strange like he suggest that Sirius is stretching Harrys mind for Voldemort. Both are against her. It was something like her last most unpleasent arguement to throw it, to stop Harry.

Its kinda strange that everytime if Ron has a tiny bit of opinion in this book is that his theorys make it worst. First about snape and than about Sirius's brother.

____________________________________________________________

First we don´t know if Harry will turn back into the team. It can be easiely that JKR let Harry out off the team and its quiet possible that this gonna be happen. Next thing Ginny isn´t more help for Harry because how I said before this scene in the libarty is a nice one no doubt but still it could be every Weasley who talk to Harry. Its just Ron and Hermione are to close and if he said he want to speak with Sirius than Hermione did ask why? Exactly that what the Weasley twins don´t do and not Ginny. But as this plan is already settled so He get Hermione without gard.

And If I read the end right than I get this funny feeling that Harry will be more ask Hermione as ever before and if I read at the last two pages as this group say good bye again Ginny is vanished like in GoF. No, really good bye. Its like our Ginny get her old place again in that scene on King Cross.

[Earendil]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
I am sooooo sorry but I still don't get it. I see that it's not about your preferences but you say that we all know that Ginny is in danger but you don't want her to be in danger. That Ron execersise poor judgement for not seeing the ramifications of the H/G pairing. But if Ginny is in danger already there is no possible ramifications. Being or not being Harry's girlfriend she is already in danger. I still dont' get what you are trying to say.

My fault entirely. Ginny is a target because she escaped LV in CoS, which Ron may or may not be aware of (who knows if he's in denial or if he's even considered that yet; it doesn't appear in canon so we don't know). Being Harry's girlfriend takes that danger and makes it double. So we have her in danger already, and then we have her in even more danger. This doesn't have to do with what I think should happen between Harry and Ginny; it has to do with what Ron probably hasn't realized yet. I made this point because I don't think that Ron is aware of the fact that LV may want to target Ginny, or that her becoming involved with Harry increases the danger even more. This isn't a point for my ship or against the H/G ship; it is just an observation about Ron's apparent desire to see Harry and Ginny together. Hope that clears things up. :sorry:
-----------------------------------

First, I want to address a few things from Rowena (BTW, haven't seen you around here in awhile, so hello again, RR. :))

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
I see this as more problematic than Ron and Hermione's superficial arguments. At least with those, nothing big is at stake.

But Ron and Hermione insult one another, hurt each others' feelings, and ridicule the others' viewpoints when nothing big is at stake, and therefore the outcome of such an argument is too insignificant to even be worth fighting over. Which is better: creating bad feelings of temporary animosity between two friends over a little thing, or over a bigger thing that actually matters?

And I don't think they resolve the problems, so much as avoid them or set them aside to deal with later. The "save-the-day complex" argument was a perfect illustration. Hermione's agreement to go didn't signal she'd backed down from her original stance: simply that she'd recognized debating Harry over it was useless.

Exactly. She backs down from trying to change his mind about rescuing Sirius because she knows that this is too important to him. Which brings me back to my original rebuttal to Mutant's point that Hermione never shows compassion for Harry's feelings: Hermione, the bossiest and most overbearing girl in school, actually decides to compromise over an issue which she knows Harry's is sensitive about--the safety of his godfather. If Hermione lacked sympathy or compassion, she would steamroller right ahead and try to forbid him from going to the DoM, and then when he refused she would walk out and refuse to support him. Now that's compassionless and apathetic. Instead, she didn't back down so much as compromise, by persuading him to at least check and make sure that Sirius wasn't at Grimmauld Place. She knew how much it meant to him to ensure Sirius's safety, and she managed to convince him that it would be smarter to check first before launching into something stupid. This wasn't an argument that blew over because of lack of effective communication; it was a compromise.
-------------------

Now onto Mutant for Hire's post. Warning: this will get long. Abandon hope all ye with short attention spans. :)

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
You've managed to show a few moments where Hermione has expressed concern for Harry. I have yet to see a warm/amusing moment with emotions on both sides of the line.

From only OotP? Well, here are two:

"The Lion and the Serpent", pg. 399 (US Edition)
"You know what these remind me of?"
"No, what's that?"
"The Death Eaters' scars. Voldemort touches one of them, and all their scars burn, and they know they've got to join him."
"Well...yes," said Hermione quietly. "That is where I got the idea...but you'll notice I decided to engrave the date on bits of metal rather than on our members' skin..."
"Yeah...I prefer your way," said Harry, grinning, as he slipped his Galleon onto his pocket. "I suppose the only danger with these is that we might accidentally spend them."

This not only shows that both Harry and Hermione drew the same parallel between the coins and the DE's scars (indicating yet another instance of mental intonation), there's even a slight light-hearted tone in Harry's compliment of the method.

"Grawp", pg. 694
Harry looked at Hermione, who peered back at him from between the fingers over her face.
"Kind of makes you wish we had Norbert back, doesn't it?" he said and she gave a very shaky laugh.

Harry cracks a joke in the midst of all the anxiety over Grawp, and Hermione even manages to laugh through her shock and panic. I may also point out that I have yet to see Hermione laugh at anything Ron says, unless Harry is also laughing (and even then, I can think of two occasions, one in GoF and one in OotP. There's not much actual laughter in these books.)

In one case he was screaming at her the moment before, and all he did was go down to a sullen anger. That wasn't sympathy, that was begging forgiveness.

It would be begging forgiveness without the line "You're absolutely right, Harry--I'd be furious if it was me!" This indicates that Hermione sees where he is coming from and displays understanding at his anger, even if she is intimidated or humbled by it. One of the very definitions of "sympathy" is "mutual understanding or affinity", which is exactly what Hermione was expressing in that sentence: attempted understanding of Harry's feelings. Lack of sympathy would be more along the lines of "We're really sorry--but there's no need to get so angry, we were just following orders." Which I'm sure crossed her mind at some point, yet she made the effort to express common ground by relating it to herself ("If it was me").

In the other case he was going around with a frantic expression. I have admitted in previous posts that Hermione does show compassion to Harry now and then, but it is the exception rather than the norm, and it tends to come out only in more extreme situations.

This comes up later in your response, but I can promise that there is more than one example throughout the septology of Hermione noticing that something is wrong with Harry and inquiring about it. As for this being the exception rather than the norm, it's important to remember that whenever Harry goes to Ron and Hermione for advice or confidence, Hermione expresses first concern and then criticism, based on the situation. Tactless she may be, but she at least shows that she cares before launching into her opinion on the matter.

Let me interupt here to point out that Harry's normal expectation of Hermione is to be critical rather than sympathetic. I have said in previous posts that she does show sympathy, but that's not how she typically treats him. This quote in fact reinforces my point.

Except that the narration makes the point that Hermione can in this case be expected to be sympathetic rather than critical. Because the narration is in Harry's perspective, he at least knows her well enough to be aware of the fact that she won't criticize him for landing in detention again, rather than taking care of his injuries. And he was right, wasn't he?

Because she knew he was this side of exploding. She was trying to soften her criticism because she knew that he was about to erupt in her face. I would be far more impressed if she tried to show that sort of tact sometime Harry wasn't near exploding or actually exploding. That first apology was when Harry was exploding.

Exactly. She speaks her mind, and then she picks up on the fact that he's about to explode and immediately tries to apply some kindness to soften the blow. There's a difference between superficial tact, intended to tiptoe around one's feelings and make something disagreeable sound good, and genuine kindness. Hermione has shown that she is aware of when she crosses the line, and when to reel it back in order to prevent herself from hurting Harry's feelings. I see the example of the "Out of the Fire" argument as her actually realizing that she struck a nerve in criticizing Harry and attempting to show compassion for his feelings by softening her statement. There is also this example to illustrate Hermione's awareness of when she goes to far, and the way that she immediately makes up for insensitive or offensive remarks when Harry is concerned:

"Grawp", pg. 701
"Oh come off it, Harry!" said Hermione angrily, stopping dead in her tracks so that the people behind her had to swerve to avoid her. "Of course he's going to be chucked out and to be perfectly honest, after what we've just seen, who can blame Umbridge?"
There was a pause in which Harry glared at her, and her eyes filled slowly with tears.
"You didn't mean that," said Harry quietly.
"No...well....all right...I didn't," she said, wiping her eyes angrily. "But why does he have to make life so difficult for himself--for us?"

She saw that she had made Harry angry by taking a stab at Hagrid, and this made her realize that she didn't even mean what she said. This isn't backing down or dressing up a statement with tact and diplomacy for the purpose of not offending a listener, this is Hermione realizing that she said something offensive to Harry and sincerely taking it back. Same thing with the DoM fight. She's horrified when she sees that he's becoming more and more offended by the "saving people thing"and she tries to soften the insult. That's the difference between tact for the sake of treading around sensitive subjects and genuine caring for the other person's feelings.

Constantly? I don't notice her asking all that often. And there was one time when she wasn't paying attention when she should have. Cho Chang. Ron was the one who questioned whether or not Harry wanted to go out with her.

I'll come back to this in another post because the list will get rather long.

I don't think "swallow his pride" is the exact expression I would use. And there was the fact that Ron was backing her up. In fact when Hermione shot out her proposal a second time, he turned to Ron to see what his friend would say.

Ron backed her up before he found out that Harry would explode if they continued to play up his accomplishments. After that, Hermione took up the responsibility for persuading him, while Ron refused to acknowledge involvement in the idea until he was certain that Harry was okay with it. Canon even tells us that Harry ascribed the credit for the idea to Hermione alone ("Sometimes it seemed an insane idea, just as it had on the night Hermione proposed it...") I think that we can say that it was Hermione who persuaded him to take part in it, especially because the conversation that follows is strictly between Hermione, bringing up the point about teaching other people, and Harry.

True, but Harry never had strong objections to talking about that. I don't focus on the times that they were more or less in agreement. This is not a case where Hermione was trying to keep Harry in check.


**Prevent him from skiving off Divination ("Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four", pgs. 364-365)
--I don't count this as a serious conflict of wills.

These are two cases in which Harry listens to Hermione, no matter how trivial the Divination-skiving one may be. It wasn't only addressed to Mutant, but to a similar statement from GilyAnn.

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Actually, he doesn't listen to her, if you look at the results of their conversations.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
I have to agree here with Mutant. Harry doesn't listen to her and when he does he never follows her advice.

The two examples from my original post were in response to the above statements that Harry never listens to Hermione.

Whoa, there's alot more that I need to reply to and this post is starting to get huge. I'll be back later with the rest of my rebuttal to Mutant's post. In the meantime, keep up the good work, everyone. :tu:

EDIT: I see that Mutant made another post that calls for a lengthy reply. :wow: Busy day!

[evaluna]

FP: Agee with your assessment of Ginny's position.

And is it possible JKR is using red-haired Ginny as a romantic red herring? Someone else brought up Ginny as a possible romantic red herring, w/which I increasingly agree, the more I study Ginny's position.


IMO, the symbolism of Ginny as romantic red herring is potentially two-fold:

one, that Harry's mother was red-haired, so it's the "easy" assumption [versus, dare we say, the "right" assumption, yes?]

...and two, also maybe JKR is being a tad humorous b/c of the "red hair" being the "red herring"?

Ha ha :)

[Ecthelion]

Mutant, that is a well written post no matter what ship you are with.

Thing is, there are certain moments that every 'shipper can write about their couple in a very persuasive way. Consequently, Ginny's and Harry's was the Library scene which you described. I'm not going to debate about it because at this particular passage of the book, people can look at it so many ways and bend it to their own wants it would not be worth it. However, at the end of your post, you made this statement.

Also, one of the reasons that Harry and Hermione spent a bit of time together in this book without Ron was due to the fact that Ron was on the Quidditch team and Harry was not, what I tend to think was a temporary thing. That is going to change next year and Hermione of the four is going to be the only one not on the team. Expect Hermione's average time with Harry, especially Harry by himself to drop.

Well, yes, I suppose in the Quidditch aspect, Hermione will tend to fade away. But the times are changing. In the first through 3rd book, quidditch was a main factor, and a large portion of his life at Hogwarts. Naturally, it still is, just not as much so. Having the most feared wizard of all time trying to kill you has a knack for doing so. As usual, I expect that quidditch will have its showtime in the next book, but as noticed, in the last 2 books quidditch has toned down to just a relatively side-interest of Harry's. Things are starting to get serious. And with Voldemort back to power, the ministry aware of reality, and the prophecy close looming over Harry's head, there is going to be a change in plot structure as well as the overall mode the book is set in. Things like quidditch and house cup are going to fade, while the ever impending prophecy and death eaters take their place. Consequently, there is going to be some highly dangerous situations concerning Harry and possibly classes training him for the final showdown....Aren't those perfect situations for Hermione to come in and help?

Given, these are assumptions as to what will happen, but something like it will happen, especially dangerous situations, and if it concerns Harry, odds are Hermione won't be to far away. I'd say that her time with Harry will stay the same as it did in the fifth book, or even more so. Than again, it's only my opinion. :)

[Mar Dhea]

Let me start off by saying that I do think H/G is possible. Every (decently) speculated relationship within HP is possible. It does have some stuff going for it - Ginny is different to either Ron or hermione in some ways, which I suppose creates variety and all in the possible relationship to Harry's other relationships with people. Ginny does not regard Harry's attraction for danger as seriously as Hermione, which can be seen as escapism for Harry. Ginny is a member of one of his favourite families, and obviously she would have the personailty traits of that family.

But the reasons I've just named are...well...not the best. The 'variety in the relationship' thing - well, that can be as easily obtained as friends. Ginny's flippancy with regard to the constant danger Harry is in - while it does have a plus, Harry, unfortunately, has to always be on his toes in every situation - he can't escape his own life. For example, alcohol is great escapism when you're drunk and can't see your own hands, never mind your troubles, but it does nothing for you. It hinders rather than helps. The fact that she is a Weasley...well, like I said, he can experience her Weasleyishness without setting up a beautiful home with her. There is an in-between between obliviousness and undying love. Friendship.

And in regard to comic relief, I personally feel that a relationship with...say...Luna, or someone would bring that better than H/G. I mean, the whole squabble thing (I see an R/Hr equivalent in H/G) has been already done between Ron and Hermione, we don't need it shoved down our throats first-hand, all the time, in the midst of pet names. It would get tedious, not have us in stitches. Though I do see a potential relkationship between H/G being comic, even if my own ideas on their compatiblility are not true.

But do we want the pivotal relationship that will conquer Voldie (yeah, I believe that harry's falling-in-love will save wizardkind) a cause for laughter? Do we want it a long-running joke? Save that for less integral romances, and not The Romance, thanks.

With regard to the library scene Mutant For Hire did a great job if dissecting (no sarcasm, just because I don't agree with what you said doesn't mean I don't think you did a great job), the one thing that got me was, as I mentioned above, Ginny's lack of regard to the precarious situation Harry is in of having the major responsibility of not dying (though so many people want him to die). She must have known that it wasn't a good idea to start communicating with people The Ministry want to capture and mount on a wall as the sign of a criminal well-captured, under the nose of one particularly venomous member of said Ministry. She had ot yhave the cop-on to realise that he'd be expelled, and very much out of DD's pretection, if he were caught. Yes, he is in turmoil, and for her to see that does show a good side of her, but turmoil or not, reassuring him that, yes, putting himself in unnecessary danger is possible, and that she is perfectly fine with that, isn't a good idea. I know Harry wanted to talk to Sirius, but Harry is too important to the future (and the present) to skirt practicality when dealing with situations regarding him. It's lunacy to actively encourage him to put himself in the firing range of danger. Though, in fairness, Ginny probably was just trying to be nice, not anything else.

On a completely different note (just to change topic a bit), I was thumbing through this long-lost Occult book I have (and forgot about, seeing as how Astology is only a very passing interest for me) when I noticed something about the ruling planets of the signs of the zodiac. (Yeah, it sounded a bit drivelish to me too, but it is kind of interesting).

Anyways, Leo's (Harry's starsign) ruling planet is the Sun. I found that interesting, -you know, the sun is the basis of all life, and the star attraction of the Solar System. Harry is the hope of wizardkind, and famous - the Sun of the school? And even more interesting, Virgo's (Hermione's star sign) ruling planet is Mercury - the closest planet to the Sun. And Mercury was the Messenger of the Gods - and Mercury is the planet that, allegedly, rules the way in which we operate and genreally communicate. Well, Mercury, being closest planet to the Sun, and Planet of Communication...perhaps symbolic. I don't know. I just thought it was interesting. Not very well-worded on my account, but...interesting all the same.

Edit: great posts, everyone! Ah, friendly debate...nothing like it for betting your keyboard hopping!