Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

[Delirium]

I just came up to this thread so I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But I'll just put in my views whatsover. All I'm saying is Harry and Hermione have no chance because in book 5, she was acting like his mother.

No she wasn't. If anything her actions reflected the deep level of concern that Hermione actually felt for Harry.


But Ron and Hermione still might have a chance.


Ron and Hermione have as good of a chance at a relationship as Neville Longbottom has for turning into the next Peter Pettigrew.


I feel Harry will end up with Ginny

Rather unlikely. If anything Ginny has nowhere near the experience that Hermione has with Harry and her view of Harry, the one that defeated Voldemort as a mere baby, is too idealized and would not hold up to reality as we have seen in Ootp.

And does anyone here have a link for an updated version of the H/Hr file?

[Fairydust]

All I'm saying is Harry and Hermione have no chance because in book 5, she was acting like his mother. But Ron and Hermione still might have a chance. I feel Harry will end up with Ginny though. Wonder what lessons Bill was giving Fleur Delacour though.

I totally agree. A lot of the times that Harry thought about Hermione all he was reminded of was her shrill worried voice. In many instances he's reminded of Mrs. Weasley when he sees Hermione and Ron bickering. That's something.

I also think that Harry will end up with Ginny. Gut feeling.

And what are Bill and Fleur doing? Something to "eemprove her eenglish" no doubt. :eyebrows:

[potterfreak24]

I totally agree. A lot of the times that Harry thought about Hermione all he was reminded of was her shrill worried voice. In many instances he's reminded of Mrs. Weasley when he sees Hermione and Ron bickering. That's something.

Yes so it could be said that Hermione acts like a mother to Ron. Where does it say that Hermione acts like a mother to harry? Also As far as I remember Harry only made the observation of Hermione acting like Mrs. Weasley once.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I disagree if you count deep careing about a person is like mothering than you have to say that about every girl who loves her boy-friend. I mean it what I said people who love someone have naturelly fears that something could happen to this someone.
If you recorgnise that Hermione overact only in book 5 that strongly than you might look at the background.

Voldemort is back, again powerful and still after Harry. A not full-growing wizard

Off course this girl is freaking out if this guy tells her he dreams about Voldemort and see what he dos or more worst this dreams go both ways. Off course she annoy him that he learn occlumancy properly.
Off course she freaks out that this guy who was still DD was there save now after DDs gone try to talk with Sirius an action what could bring himself in danger and Sirius.
She simply don't want lose him. By the way she is just a person who knows this background very much and that is why she is that overacting. This isn't mothering.

[noddwyd]

Amazing post, there Nia, you meantioned many of the reasons I feel those two would be the most likely pair. The biggest one being that it 'rings true' when at this point all the others would seem fake and contrived. What really kills me, though, is that Harry and Hermione's 'platonic' relationship runs far deeper than either of their relationships with their romantic interests to date. And it would remain that way, if either of them paired off. How would you feel, if you had to compete with your bf/gf's 'friend' for their time and affections?

[potterfreak24]

How would you feel, if you had to compete with your bf/gf's 'friend' for their time and affections?

It is because of this exact point that I personally don't see Harry or Hermione being able to be paired off with anyone. The only person that could possibly understand the connection between these two would be Ron.

Aww man...I just helped the r/hr ship. :grumble:

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk

If you want to prolong this debate, I'm more than happy to do so.

Hawk, if you're not the captain, stop acting like one then. (and everyone treats you like one. BTW, when I said "most celebrated and skilful debater) I was joking. You are absolutely right- there are also other excellent and skilful debaters on the Harmony. Earendil. Sirius83, Perdita, MEM, Evaluna,Ikeyli (can't spell it sorry!) and others spring to mind. Take a :clap:

If you want to remain professional and not allow friendly banter and jokes and compliments come into the debate, then that's fine by me.

I also noticed that you cannot prove one way or the other if Hermione is seeing Krum on a platonic or romantic level.

Neither can you. The fact remains, the actions of Hermione and Krum can be interpreted either way. As I've explaining painstakingly many many times why the Hermione/Krum relationship when it continues has no relevance on the overall R/Hr relationship, because at this point, Hermione is not "consciously feeling" for Ron. It is only when external stimuli come into play, that we see any sort of indication of what Hermione's subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility of Ron liking her is throwing up. I think that's perfectly clear-(in terms of my theory, not out of the books.)

Or simply as others have pointed out Ron was jealous for other reasons. Perhaps if there was something besides Ron saying that Hermione is a girl and getting perfume to look at.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be assuming that Ron perhaps does not have feelings for Hermione in that way? :wow: Well, that's a new line of argument, for sure! Come on! There are clues hidden in the books apart from those instances. You should, even from a H/Hr view point be able to find them. It seems we have gone back to primitive beginings, in that we are disputing fundamental points, whether Ron likes Hermione. Sorry, but I'm not doing that.

For after Hermione realizes her subconscious feelings, by your theory the talk with Krum, she kisses Harry. After feeling something she has never felt before she does something that she has never done before and kisses the man she realizes that she loves. Thank you AK.

Thank you for what? You continually keep misunderstanding me and jumping to conclusions that I have contradicted myself.

One, it was the upset for Ron (Black nearly stabbed yeh). Two, it was the whole semicolon thing. Three, it was the whole pet thing. In this case, it's the word realizes. Where, through thousands of words of my essays have I said Hermione "realizes" her feelings at those Fleur instances. Please, I'm looking forward to see the text provided.

I will however, provide you with what I said about this. So that you can read it again, with my following explaination and there can be no misunderstanding at all.

However, at those Fleur instances, the stimuli is there. It stimulates her subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her. A reaction surfaces. It is a jealous/furious reaction. This gives us a *good* indication at feelings what this subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her, is producing.

Note the bolded parts. Well, it's self explanatory, but I'll go a bit further, as to make sure there is no misunderstanding. Hermione does not "realise", when Fleur kisses Ron. Not as simple as that. There is no "light" switched on. There is a gradual process, as I have explained, which is started by the external stimuli. Through OOTP, this subconscious examination produces some feelings for Ron, which are slowly coming into her conscious. The reason for this "slowness", as I have said countless times, is due to problems of "logicality" and insecurity, and the scope of their friendship. Repeated many times through my essay.

And there's no need to let me get away with anything. You haven't proven anything but this is how you interpet the text.

Excuse me. Yes I have. You refused to accept that the scowl was because of the smile. It was like trying to argue that black was indeed white. But with the web-extract I proved something- I proved that the scowl was because of the smile. I never said that I proved that because of the scowl, this meant Hermione was jealous/disliked Fleur. I made it clear that this was my interpretation and that it was, *to me* the most likely one.

You, realising that you were wrong when you said that there was no way of proving when the scowl started, clutch at a straw- at the word "seems". A red herring that Hermione wasn't scowling at Fleur's smile, but in fact at something else? Come on! Read the rest of the semicolon extract- it makes it crystal clear that the scowl was because of the smile.

but what about his flirting with Padma?

I don't seem to remember this. But if you give me the chapter and page nos, I'll go and have a look at it. Even so, I did say he started to realise/accept. I don't think this process of acceptance is complete-but it is nearly complete (at the end of OOTP).

And what else did he do to examine or to let Hermione know that his feelings had changed?

What? Post Yule Brawl! The poor bugger was visibly affronted by the whole thing. He was (and still is) terrified of another repeat of it! The process has started.

Know your opponet and yourself.

Is this your debating philosophy. Very interesting indeed.

Mad Eye If you say so. I did get the joke, so no hard feelings. Just to clear that up.

Sirius83

Additionally, to my knowledge, Hermione was supposed to hug both boys in the script but Emma wouldn't do it. Columbus then managed to get her to just hug Dan quickly, which they lengthened using various camera angles and not hug Rupert. Columbus felt this would foreshadow the events of GOF, but it was apparently not in the script that Kloves created with JKR's help. In the COS DVD interview, JKR says she felt the movie foreshadowed feelings between the THREE of them, not the two. This suggests Harry was involved in the "feelings" as well.

Hmmm? Sources please about that Emma thing. Sorry, but I'm being skeptical about it. :p

IMO, if quotes are not to be trusted, movies aren't too. JKR and Steve Kloves (to an extent) can be conspiring to lay plenty of red herrings to confuse us totally. Although I know I will have fun analysing the POA movie. (JKR could tell Warner Bros what pictures to allow out first, so that picture could be a red herring.)

Mind you, I'm not really debating anything, just stating my opinion on this.

Oh, and Flying Phoenix it's September the 19th. Now go and see what that says. :p

Signing out,

Avada

(FairyDust- the answer to your question is yes.)

[FlyingPhoenix]

I did it already change AK so don't worry it was only a little failure I think I was to far flying away with my thoughts.

[Nia]

Quoting Fairydust:
I totally agree. A lot of the times that Harry thought about Hermione all he was reminded of was her shrill worried voice. In many instances he's reminded of Mrs. Weasley when he sees Hermione and Ron bickering. That's something.
****
Probably not since Harry only makes this kind of observation once:
OoP, Ch. 29, pg. 658 (American Edition)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Harry wants to get into Umbridge's office and Hermione is trying to talk him out of it]
"What do you think about this?" Hermione demanded of Ron, and Harry was reminded irresistibly of of Mrs. Weasley appealing to her husband during Harry's first dinner at Grimmauld Place.
"I dunno," said Ron, looking alarmed at being asked to give an opinion. "If Harry wants to do it, it's up to him, isn't it?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning Hermione's voice, I think you may be referring to the Hermione of three books back. Please point out to us in GoF where Harry ever perceives Hermione's voice as 'shrill.' (Pats foot on floor waiting)

Harry is in a great deal of danger in this book, even moreso than previously. Because Hermione is analytical and very perceptive, she sees the ramifications of Harry's actions that he apparently cannot. Neither, apparently, can anyone else judging from Ron's nonchalant attitude and Ginny' cavalier approach to making a way for him to get into Umbridge's office to contact Sirius in the first place. If Hermione's deep concern is 'mothering,' then any female who has ever agonized over a boyfriend or husband or fiance whose actions take him into extreme danger is guilty of mothering too.

'Mothering' BTW is what Mrs. Weasley does when she washes and irons Harry's clothes, shops for him at Diagon Alley, tries to smooth his hair, fusses and fawns over him and tries to push him to eat breakfast. I think Hermione is a bit above that sort of thing, don't you?
Cheers,
Nia

[noddwyd]

The only person that could possibly understand the connection between these two would be Ron.
actually, he has shown jealousy for what they have as well.

[Mad-I Moody]

Jealousy for what Harry and Hermione have? I don't remember...can you remind me when, noddwyd?

[FlyingPhoenix]

Thats what I wanted to say it was about Ron and I did forget it but now I have it back. I do think he is suspicious about H/Hr if they are together and all this stuff.
There is one reason why I think so its not that much his comment How do you know? Its much more simple. Its the fact that Harry don't take Cho above of Hermione.
If you look at his date with Cho and what he answer Hermione as she say he should meet her. He don't say no and don't say he don't want meet her because this is his very first date with his crush since 3th year. He just don't do it and that is interest every guy who has his first date with that girl he fancy don't go and meet on the same day his best friend if its male or female thats one of this "Don'ts" on your first date or general on your dates. Ron did sit right at Harrys side and He, even he, asked why can't she say more as that. I'm sure if it were Ron and his first date he didn't go and meet Hermione not with that less of informations. But Harry did this. He never take Cho at first and than Hermione its always exactly the opposite.
Hermione comes always before Cho. Just look at DA. Harry is always first with his friends than he gos around to Cho and just in that moment Hermione turns again up and tells him something. This whole naming thing is again Hermione who got more attention. Cho was never that important to Harry like his two friends.
And I dare to say Ron get it as he hear how Harry react about this kiss. He might even get how Hermione react about this thats why he ask sharply because both Harry and Hermione act strangly as if its a problem for both as if there is something what Ron didn't know till now

[noddwyd]

I'm talking about the post-kiss scene, which can be interpreted in many ways, and one of them, as I think someone already pointed out in an earlier post, is that it shows Ron's jealousy torwards them. He gets an 'unusually shrewd' expression on his face and says, "Maybe he doesn't want to go out with Cho" And then overreacts when Hermione says, "of course your not" about Harry being a bad kisser. He is also rolling around in the floor like an idiot when he hears Harry and Cho kissed, and Hermione 'finally gives him a look of deep disgust', meaning she finally realized exactly what he was so happy about. Of course, you would obviously interpret this differently, so, what does it matter?

[Mad-I Moody]

um, well, I was really just curious. I couldn't remember that instance, and I've loaned out my book, so I was asking for some information, that's all. I guess that is why it matters to me -- just because I wanted to know what you were referring to. Sorry...

[noddwyd]

sokay, I was just trying to point out that perception is everything here. At least it is so far. And with our luck that won't change until book 7. Heck, maybe we'll never get this resolved, like somebody meantioned a few pages back. That would suck.

[ana_banana]

In my own personal opinion, I love BOTH couples, Harry/Hermione and Harry/Ginny. But I'd have to say I see no real chance for Harry and Hermione. You do need to see that its not the amount of time Hermione spends with Harry. Harry, Hermione and Ron are BEST FRIENDS, they have been like that ever since their first year. You seem to misunderstand the "friendship" idea. I think Ron and Hermione have a lot of chances though, they have BOTH showed signs of interests between them. And you guys might not have noticed, but read the books a little deeper, not because Harry is not in love with Ginny right now, doesn't mean HELL NEVER BE. I agree with Gilly Ann mostly, especially when she said Harry's already showing signs.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Where are this signs? Just wondering.
Anyway this scenario which I see is pretty possible because this is how life function. Live or love is difficult and don't look out if it destroy friendships or cost troubles thats how it is. As author you chose the difficult way just because you can write more

[Fairydust]

Wow! I only stop looking at the posts for an hour and there already is a new topic.

Will Ginny and Dean last?

In my opnion, no. For one thing, do we even know if they are going out for sure? I mean, it seemed like she just sprung it on Ron to see his reaction, which was quite funny. I think that she's probably just one of those girls that likes to date. I mean, she spent four years having a crush on Harry and now she seems to be maturing and "gave up" on him. I still think she likes him, but she just gave up on trying to get him to like her or whatnot. I think Dean and Ginny will last for like a month or two or even three, butI'm still going to stick with the theory that Ginny will end up with Harry.

[humongoratdropping]

Also, whatever Ginny said about getting over Harry, there are some areas where there are different levels of interpretation.

1. When Harry notified people of the first DA meeting, Ginny found Cho first. (this can be interpreted as Ginny interested in finding out about Harry's girlfriends, or nothing can be read into this at all)
2. Also, the library scene. Why was Ginny sooo concerned about Harry being down adn associating it with Cho???

[Fairydust]

is this going to turn into another shipper debate?

[humongoratdropping]

hopefully not

[Mega]

Isn't that what this thread is for?

[Fairydust]

well there is a new topic. i was just wondering if it was going to revert back to the old one. right now i think we're discussing Ginny and Dean and whether we think they'll last.

[humongoratdropping]

NO they won't. NO. I think Ginny just joked about it; she chose him, which doesn't necessarily meant that they dated; also, she was vague, and can just be a temporary thing or just something to tick Ron off.

[Elric]

Surely at the moment it's difficult to have reasoned debate on whether Dean & Ginny will last, as the relationship was only mentioned in passing, P763 of the UK edition and the book finished on P766.

Currently we could flip a coin, and use the outcome of that as to whether they last or not.

[humongoratdropping]

Elric is right; however, JK's most seemingly insignificant sentences can foreshadow a lot

[Fairydust]

I do think that her saying she was dating Dean was just to get a rise out of Ron. I don't think anything much will happen with them because I believe that neither she or Harry will have a real relationship until they get together.

[humongoratdropping]

Agreed, Fairydust.
No more casual dating for Harry anymore. I think the threat of Voldemort killing anyone he loves will make his dates more intense or he'll try to not love anyone anymore for fear of Voldemort killing them...until Ginny finally gets through to him..at last....

[FlyingPhoenix]

Slowly I got this feeling we run into circles or better we have some twins here :)

Anyway now seriously don't you think Ron, no matter which ship you support, should get a girl who is not Hermione? I'm speaking about book 6.

[humongoratdropping]

Maybe Ron will hit on Luna before Hermione hexes him with the Furnunculus curse...then ROn will wake up...

[Fairydust]

I really think that Ron and Hermione are perfect for each other. But there are people who will disagree. Fine. I mean, I wouldn't mind if Ron and Hermione dated people before actually getting together. I mean, Ron can go date Luna, Hermione can go date Harry, as long as it ends with Ron and Hermione together. Now this all remains to be seen but this is what i want.

[humongoratdropping]

What about poor Ginny, eh?? I think she'll have a fit and a falling-out with Hermione if she ever dates Harry first. So I think that they'll never date others first; straight to the people they were meant for because others will be consumed by jealously.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Are you telling me you ship R/Hr or H/G because you want it happen?

[Turambar]

Posted by Ana Banana:
In my own personal opinion, I love BOTH couples, Harry/Hermione and Harry/Ginny. But I'd have to say I see no real chance for Harry and Hermione. You do need to see that its not the amount of time Hermione spends with Harry. Harry, Hermione and Ron are BEST FRIENDS, they have been like that ever since their first year. You seem to misunderstand the "friendship" idea. I think Ron and Hermione have a lot of chances though, they have BOTH showed signs of interests between them. And you guys might not have noticed, but read the books a little deeper, not because Harry is not in love with Ginny right now, doesn't mean HELL NEVER BE. I agree with Gilly Ann mostly, especially when she said Harry's already showing signs.

xxxxxxx
Just a couple of things about the "friendship" aspect:
a) Aren't both H/Hr and R/Hr friends? So why is there "no real chance" for H/Hr and "a lot of chances" for R/Hr?
b) Unless we are talking about love at first sight which is not applicable for any of the exisiting ships, doesn't love have to grow from somewhere i.e. friendship?
c) Since this is also fiction, doesn't the author have to show, give signs, allow the reader to see a developing romance involving the hero, Harry?

Some general comments:
We have two books to go, there are strong clues in OOTP that love will be important to the end of the series. As the main character Harry's romance is most important, JKR made that totally clear with OOTP when we spent so much time with the Harry/Cho story and Cho's jealousy over Hermione.
If we look at the friendship hierarchy: in OOTP JKR kept Ron and Hermione as Harry's two best friends but introduced three others - Neville, Luna and Ginny - at a more distant level.
There are potentially three pairs there if they all survive. I think what she's doing is structurally keeping the juggled balls in the eyes of the reader to ensure doubt as to which way they will fall. There are hints for different combinations.

We have seen Harry have one relationship where he was attracted to someone (Cho) who wasn't as close or as important to him as Hermione. Generally it's considered that someone's girlfriend/boyfriend should be the most important girl/boy to them.
We saw in OOTP that Hermione's closeness to Harry inspired strong jealousy in Cho just as it inspired strong jealousy in Krum in GOF.
At the end of OOTP Harry and Hermione are closer than ever. So this invisible barrier remains for any girl who wants to be Harry's girlfriend.

Potentially this barrier is hardest for Ginny to overcome.
She's close friends with Hermione, friends with Harry and they are both also friends of the Weasley family. She's the sister of Harry's best male friend Ron.
Just how difficult is it going to be to wean Harry away from his two best friends - one of whom happens to be her big brother - to spend time alone with her?
Just how is she going to become more important to Harry and more influential than Hermione? Does she stop being friends with Hermione? Is Harry going to stop going to Hermione for advice and help and instead go to Ginny? Is Hermione going to take any erosion of her closeness to Harry lying down? Well clearly what happened with Cho suggests she won't.
Let's think of the practical implications: Both Ginny and Luna are in a year below Harry, Hermione and Ron. So the pattern of the trio spending so much class time and after hours study time together must continue unless there is a volcanic upheaval in their friendship. Ginny and Luna's magical learning and experience is at a more junior level than the trio's therefore they can't help Harry with studies or advice to the same level as Hermione can. And Hermione, as each book tells us, is advanced for her age, the best student overall of her year.
It's curious that JKR made other candidates for Harry's heart apart from Hermione belonging to different years than the two of them. Cho is a year ahead and in a different house, Luna is a year behind and in a different house, Ginny is a year behind and in the same house.
That practical barrier means Harry will spend most of his time with Ron and Hermione unless there is a split in their friendship. Since we've seen that virtually nothing will keep Hermione from Harry, any future split between Ron and Harry would most likely see Hermione spending most of her time with Harry. That's what she chose to do in GOF.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Harry/Hermione is the only way I want it! They are Perfect for each Other! Perfect! Ron/Luna or ron/Anyone besides Hermione! Neville/Whoever! I just want Harry/Hermione to get together! And something else I think I think Ron likes Hermione but Hermione likes Harry! Thats the way it is!

[Fairydust]

No, I ship R/H and H/G because of the evidence. There is more R/H evidence than H/G evidence I admit. but what i do se of H/G i really believe in this ship. nothing, no arguments made by any H/Hr shipper or R/L shipper or whatnot will persuade me to change my thoughts about what I think will happen. :agree:

[humongoratdropping]

NIce to know that we all stick to our views...but doesn't this mean debating is nearly pointless..since debating is supposed to convince someone of taking your viewpoint??(BAM!!There goes like at least 40 pages of this thread)

[Elric]

Yes it is about time that Ron got his act together vis-a-vis the opposite sex.

We've had Hermione/Krum in GOF, Harry/Cho in OOTP, Ron's just letting the side down :)

Or maybe he's been biding his time on the sideline's picking up pointers, and he'll wow us all in book six with his romantic skills, er , since this is Ron then perhaps not!

[FlyingPhoenix]

I can tell you I don't want H/Hr happen because this include for me that one of the trio will die and in my theory is it Hermione.
Though my theory can be wrong, what I really hope, than still there are to many hints for H/Hr.

Infact I wouldn't mind R/Hr but like I said this is too easy and love is never easy.

[Fairydust]

Some people's view points can be changed and yes that's what debating is for. But with all the pages and evidence for H/Hr and all the evidence for R/H just makes me go for R/H even more. I'm not convinced at all of an H/Hr relationship. I'm even more convinced of an R/H thing going on.

I don't think R/H is easy at all. i mean, they've been like best friends since they were. They are both very proud and stubborn people. If they had feelings for each other then they won't really wise up to it because they'd want to deny it. You know the whole "he's my friend. I can't like him", "she's one of my best friends. I shouldn't be feeling like this" thing. it's sort of that predicament with those two. R/H...yea! :clap:

[humongoratdropping]

Well, Elric seems to be making a joke...but it still remains to be seen what aftereffects Ron will suffer from teh brain attack in teh DoM

[Fairydust]

i think Ron took potions for the brain attack. i wonder, if Ron saw thoughts and things, maybe he'll start seeing visions and stuff. how this will help R.H i don't know. maybe Ron will see a vision of Hermione and find out that she actually has feelings for him? :lol: that's hoping.

[humongoratdropping]

That would be funny...(won't go into lewd visions of what Ron would see Hermione in...chokes)

But Madam Pomfrey said thoughts could leave deeper scarring than anything else...even though she applied copius amounts of Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction...

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

I must admitt to Everyone that there is evidence for R/Hr BUT! and I mean But! H/Hr are like perfect My Theory is Ron likes hermione but Hermione likes harry and Harry likes her back! Ha! Thats my Theory and my Wish!! I want H/Hr!Im going to start a Club Like the Cod one.. If JK Dosnt make H/Hr get together Im going to find her and throw the book at her!

[Fairydust]

dumbledore2905, do you have any proof or evidence to back up your theory? just wondering? ;)

[humongoratdropping]

And how the hell would you throw a book at her when you supposedly live in California??

[Fairydust]

hahahahaha. this thread is so entertaining. R/H...yeah baby. H/G....they're perfect...N/L....you gotta throw them in, but they'd be cute anyway.

[humongoratdropping]

What, they triple date or something??
Conversation:

Neville:"Erm Luna...where did Trevor go?"
Luna:"A Crumple-horned snorkack ate it."
(this is in the middle of the date tooo...)

Neville and Luna are so cute together...

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

To all you R/Hr shippers:grumble: :rasp::nc::grumble::rasp:. But on a more nicer note.. And on Topic. I was watching COS today.. and at the end Hermione Hugged Harry shook hands with Ron right.. Right! Well I think Hermion likes Harry And Harry likes her back but ron likes Hermione and Hermione dosnt like him like that! GOF Harry got kiss on cheek.. This supports my theory too! Harry And Hermione For EVER!

[humongoratdropping]

OH yeah??!! Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek before his first Quidditch match too in OOtp!

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

OK fine I'll give you that one but It was simatetic(SP) she felt sorry for him Cause He sucks at Seeker.. And She was trying to give him some confidence so HA!

[Fairydust]

OH yeah??!! Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek before his first Quidditch match too in OOtp!

Right on! she kissed him right before the match. she seemed pretty worried about him right after the match when he doesn't show up. now this could be donsidered inadmissable, but if you're going to put in the stuff with harry then yout to put in the stuff with Ron. R/H and H/G and throw in N/L.... :p

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Read my post above yours :rasp::rasp::rasp: am Mainly a H/Hr shipper! But I wouldnt mind for a H/G! But I dont want ron to get with Hermione. For some reason I have started to dislike Ron for some reason i dont know why! But I dont think he Deserves Hermione!

[humongoratdropping]

Geezz...calm down, dumbledore2905, we were just poking some good fun at you...no need for your blood pressure to rise...(lol)

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

My blood presures just fine thank you lol! I hope! Sorry but I get into the whole debate over H/Hr R/hr!

[Fairydust]

no need to get snippy. and i didn't see your post before i put mine on so, jeebus, don't whig out on me. anyhoo. i wnt H/G just as much as I want R/H. how you say Ron doesn't deserve Hermione is beyond me. I mean, not every couple has to be deserving of the other. all that matters is if they love each other or what not. it doesn't depend on who's smarter or who's more loving or who's more brave. it's all about love. if they love each other then that's what counts. all you need is love.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

I apoligised for being "Snippy" so lay off... But I dont know Ron has just rubed me the wrong way kinda.... Harry/Ginny wouldnt be bad but I prefer H/Hr R/L I can live with that!

[Fairydust]

how has Ron rubbed you the wrong way exactly? he wasn't too much a front runner in this story since a lot of the key parts (Grawp and when Umbridge and Hermione and Harry were in the forest) he wasn't there. we didn't really get to see Ron shine in everything except that he got the prefects badge.

[Dreamprincess288]

potterfreak24 Actually . . .

Harry seeing Hermione's loyalty is for me a sign of him not appreciating her. I mean after 5 years he has to see Hermione's loyalty to recognized it? By now he is suppossed not to have a hint of doubt about that. He has no questions of Ron's. He even looks surprised when Ron agreed with Hermione about the DA because Harry always assumes that Ron is loyal to him. Yet he never assumes that with Hermione. In the chapter when a new teacher for care of magical creatures came in he looked at Hermione waiting for her to say that Hagrid was a good teacher. He didn't had to look at Ron.

By 5 years now and all that Hermione has done for Harry he should have no questions of her loyalty and support. Yet he does, he has to see her loyalty to be sure of it. It's for me a bad sign.

Gily Ann

I noticed that too! It seemed kind of odd to me how many times Harry had to ask Hermione if she was with them but he didn't need to question Ron once. I think Harry is aware of Hermione's loyalty, he knows in the end she will always be there for him but there are a few times where she hasn't stood by him and during OOTP nobody believes him and people he thought were his friends turned against him (Seamus, for example) so Harry was quite touchy when it came to the subject of loyalty throughout the book.

Now to touch on something else, I just came across this quote in someone's siggy:

Love does not consist of gazing at each other, but looking outward together in the same direction. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

I believe this person is an H/Hr shipper yet for some reason it seems to resemble R/Hr for me. Ron and Hermione have had some ups and downs, fights, arguments, etc. Yet they've still stayed best friends which in some cases would seem kind of odd. Most people that I know that bicker that much don't stay friends for more than a year or two, and they certainly don't stay best friends. Which is one of the reasons I believe that the Ron/Hermione friendship is a lot stronger than some people give it credit for. Regardless of their arguing they seem to be looking towards the same goal: respecting and caring for one another as friends. I think during OOTP the trio has evened out, they are all equally best friends, and they all feel equally close to each other in means of friendship.

As for the romance aspect, while I've always been an R/Hr shipper I can see why the H/Hr shippers see some future romance in store for them. I think that JKR has done her best to confuse us and has succeeded. She left off at the end of GOF with Harry still having feelings for Cho, Ron appearing to like Hermione, and Hermione's feelings being tucked away and not really given to the reader. A lot of people think that Harry may have liked Hermione in GOF but I don't think that because are told straight out that he likes Cho throughout the whole book. Some people also have said that Harry may have subconciously liked her but since we can always read Harry's thoughts, dreams, etc. there would have probably been some more hints if that was true.

So then OOTP picks up and while there are subtle clues of Ron still liking Hermione it's not as obvious as in GOF because there are bigger problems that the trio has to deal with at the moment so it seems as if Ron has put those feelings in the back of his mind temporarily so he can help the order. As for Harry, OOTP continues his Cho crush, and at the same time ends it. And Hermione's feelings are kept in the dark again. So we end OOTP not knowing who Hermione likes but having a sense that Ron and Harry may both like her since both has shown evidence during book 5. I do think that some light will be shed on Hermione's feelings in the next two books. I personally see an R/Hr ending but there may possibly be a H/Hr pairing in between, but I do think JKR will end the series with R/Hr and H/G.

Now, as this is my first real post in this thread since OOTP I'm being quite general here, just touching on little things I noticed in the books. I used to post here quite often before May or so when school got in the way but I've definetly been away for a long time so I'm pretty lost with some of the recent issues since I haven't gone back and read the last 60+ pages and I don't think I'll ever have time too! But I'm gonna try and catch up but sorry if I repeat things that have already been said, I'll try my best not too!

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

When he got mad at harry for hogiging all the Glory in GOF that Pissed me off.. Ever since then I havnt thought of Him as highly as before!

[Mad I]

You can't forget that even when Ron wasn't involved in the direct story he often was getting the spotlight other ways (such as getting on the Quidditch team, and even winning the Quidditch cup). But, I do agree that he seemed to get the shaft when it came to the spotlight of this book.

[AvadaKedavra]

???????????

dumbledore2905 Your evidence and text please, which makes you SO SURE that H/Hr will happen. Plus don't bash Ron in order to support a theory. It's pathetic and here saying a character is bad and not good for another does not stand unless there is evidence to support this, and is done objectively.

I don't bash Hermione, and say therefore this is the reason why H/Hr will not happen, so don't do it in return, with Ron, unless you have powerful and compelling evidence that Ron is a bad, bad person.

Signing out,

Avada

(P.S- what on earth happened to the post count???? Mines dropped dramatically from something like 340 to 250! I don't appreciate this!)

[noddwyd]

I think that JKR has done her best to confuse us and has succeeded.
Yes, she has left every option open for herself even after five books. Amazing, isn't it?

[Fairydust]

She knows what she's going to write. it's just that we don't know what she's going to write. JK's just playing with us. she goes to fansites and everything and knows what goes around with fans and what they think are going to happen. she's just messing.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

OK Everyone Im going to Stop here and apoligize to all The R/Hr shippers.. Sorry Got a little carried away! Ron is a cool Character but im just really wanting Harry to get with Hermione.. But we all have are opinions and Ive voiced mine so Im DONE! So sorry AvadaKedavra and everyone else like Fairydust ect ect..
:angel::agree:IM SO SORRY!:agree::angel:PS.(I also noticed post count changes some Thread must have been deleted! i lost bout 10 posts so not a Big deal really)

[Fairydust]

Thanks for the apology, dumbledore2905. we're all allowed to voice our opinions it's just that it gets heated when character bashing happens.

[AvadaKedavra]

Thanks, apology accepted. There's no problem with saying anything, but you really have to back it up here. Saying something, and backing it up is vital.

I lost nearly a hundred. So it's not a big deal for me is it?

:upset:

[noddwyd]

yes, she may be just messing with us, and may already have decided exactly how this will play out, but because of that, she could change her mind at any time if she really wanted to. There has been nothing conclusive in canon, yet.

[sone]

Yet they've still stayed best friends which in some cases would seem kind of odd. Most people that I know that bicker that much don't stay friends for more than a year or two, and they certainly don't stay best friends. Which is one of the reasons I believe that the Ron/Hermione friendship is a lot stronger than some people give it credit for.

This is why I do not give their friendship that much credit. They find reasons and look for ways to strip each other down and harshly at that. Plus it does not seem like they would hold together as friends very long without Harry. As a matter of fact, I think they would not of even been friends if it were not for Harry.

[ana_banana]

Alright, I first want to say I DONT INTEND TO FIGHT WITH YOU GUYS. I'd like to see a Harry/ Hermione ship as well, but in MY OWN OPINION, I don't see it possible. I do agree friendship is a very great frist step for love, but I also think, Hermione and Harry have developed too much as a couple to back out in the next two books.

[AvadaKedavra]

I do think JKR has made her mind up. She's indicated this in interviews, and says that she won't and can't remove the clues, that they've already been laid. The problem is, which are clues, and which are red herrings, and which simply aren't intended as both? :lol:

[ana_banana]

Sone, I hadn't read your post, sorry for double-posting. I just want to say, I myself have had many friends who I bicker with every minute lol and I'm still close to them.

[Fairydust]

This is why I do not give their friendship that much credit. They find reasons and look for ways to strip each other down and harshly at that. Plus it does not seem like they would hold together as friends very long without Harry. As a matter of fact, I think they would not of even been friends if it were not for Harry.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. when Harry and ron had their falling out Hermione and Ron were still on good terms and they were talking and everything. Also, I think that they would be friends regardless of whether or not Harry was in the picture. Sure they probably would not have beome friends if it wasn't for the troll, but neither would Harry and Hermione be friends. Both Harry and Ron did not like Hermione before Halloween in the first book. Harry thought she was a person that couldn't mind her business. Ron thought that she was a knowitall. But their relationships have grown and they are all close friends. i don't think we should start discrediting friendships. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are all best friends.

[Fairydust]

Sone, I hadn't read your post, sorry for double-posting. I just want to say, I myself have had many friends who I bicker with every minute lol and I'm still close to them.

sorry to repost again. but anyhoo. i have a friend that i fight with practically all the time when we're hanging out. we're still pretty tight even though we've said some :censored: things to each other.

[ana_banana]

Thats my point fairy....the closest relation ships i have are mostly like R/H..

[Fairydust]

I think the R/H type relations are the ones that are going to last. I mean, sure they fight, but when they make up it's really nice.

[AvadaKedavra]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. when Harry and ron had their falling out Hermione and Ron were still on good terms and they were talking and everything. Also, I think that they would be friends regardless of whether or not Harry was in the picture. Sure they probably would not have beome friends if it wasn't for the troll, but neither would Harry and Hermione be friends. Both Harry and Ron did not like Hermione before Halloween in the first book. Harry thought she was a person that couldn't mind her business. Ron thought that she was a knowitall. But their relationships have grown and they are all close friends. i don't think we should start discrediting friendships. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are all best friends.

Exactly. Something to add, along these lines. You may think that R/Hr only talk about Harry- well it's always Harry that has the "problem", it's always Harry who needs help. In fact, Ron and Hermione are fulifying their roles as Harry's friends and helping Harry out.

Also remember JKR writes about the "Important" parts of the year, and not the boring parts all the time like "harry picked his nose and went downstairs to play a game of exploding snap with neville, listening to Ron and Hermione talk about what they would choose for the Newts."

Sure, their are some instances of this, but in HP, you often skip weeks.

This doesn't necessarily mean R/Hr aren't good friends and that Harry is their "common" bond. In fact, when Harry wasn't there to "mastermind" R/Hr as you seem to indicate it, R/Hr seemed to get along fine. Hermione and Ron were going to Hogsmeade (even though it was a ploy by Hermione to get H/R speaking again).

Sorry but undermining the Ron Hermione friendship won't work (well not for me). It cannot be denied that even though Harry and Hermione "get on" better i.e. they don't argue as much, Ron and Hermione still have a very very powerful connection of caring and love for each other (friend love).

[ana_banana]

Just because Ron is too.....slow to show it, doesn't mean he doesn't like Hermione.

[Dreamprincess288]

Nicely Said!! Excellent post AK!

[GilyAnn]

Aren't both H/Hr and R/Hr friends? So why is there "no real chance" for H/Hr and "a lot of chances" for R/Hr?

If you don't mind Turambar I like to give a shot to that question of yours based on my POV.

Even though H/Hr are friends and R/Hr are also. The difference in between the friendship is very different. R/Hr like each other. Hermione scolds over Fleur's attentions over Ron. She acts acidly when he remembers she is a girl. She is furious when his troll remark. All of them sings of (TO ME) that she likes Ron and Ron likes her back. They are non-platonic.

On the contrary H/Hr (TO ME) it's very, very platonic. They don't show any sings not even hints of it of being atracted to each other. Hermione is not bother at all by the fact that Harry likes Cho and wasn't even bother that he never though once about her in when the Yule ball aproach. Hermione simply doesn't show signs to me of liking Harry in any way and Harry doesn't show signs back.

The difference between the two is that Ron and Hermione show a LOT of signs of being more than friends, while Harry and Hermione show no absolutly sign of like each other.

Unless we are talking about love at first sight which is not applicable for any of the exisiting ships, doesn't love have to grow from somewhere i.e. friendship?

Sorry but I don't believe so. It can grow from friendship but they are hundreds of ways to find love also. Apparently JKR thinks that way also. Look on how James and Lily were. Lily loath James, she really dislike him for his arrogance but once he stopped hexing people and being a person again. She went out with him. So while love can grow from friendship it isn't the only way that you can find love.

Since this is also fiction, doesn't the author have to show, give signs, allow the reader to see a developing romance involving the hero, Harry?

Yes but so far TO ME he hasn't done so in the case of H/Hr. He has done so with R/Hr. We know that Ron is in love with Hermione but he doesn't know the depth of his feelings yet. He finally may have gotten the hint that he likes her but the depth of his feelings are yet to be discoverd by him. I won't go into Harry because that's a theme we agree to disagree many threads back.

We have seen Harry have one relationship where he was attracted to someone (Cho) who wasn't as close or as important to him as Hermione. Generally it's considered that someone's girlfriend/boyfriend should be the most important girl/boy to them.

This is simply because Cho was a crush. What Harry felt for Cho wasn't real. She was an image on his head once she failed at it the image is gone. Therefore everything he wasn't going to prefer Cho over Ron or Hermione. She failed his image and he began to loose interest. Every encounter it was something else that he set his crush into a fall. By Valantines day he was calling her a human hosepipe. He simply grew tired of her.

Potentially this barrier is hardest for Ginny to overcome.

We are probably going to agree to disagree here. But GInny all ready overcame that barrier. Ginny cheer up Harry on a moment that he needed. Harry lost on this book the remark about Ginny Weasley. Ginny became simply Ginny. She became someone that had a personality, had feelings, got angry, was good at hexing, was a good listener. Ginny became real to Harry. Before she was Ginny Weasley now she is simply Ginny.

Just how difficult is it going to be to wean Harry away from his two best friends - one of whom happens to be her big brother - to spend time alone with her?

Easier than most people think. I have no doubt in JKR wonderfull writting abilities that she can (and will) in a way that is fairly convincing. If you look at it in this book Ginny and Harry spend some time toguether alone and with Ron also.

Just how is she going to become more important to Harry and more influential than Hermione? Does she stop being friends with Hermione?

Why should she stopped being friends with Hermione when they have a great frienship going! I love Hermione and Ginny's friendship! Again there are a lot of plot lines that jkr could use to get Harry and Ginny toguether. Ginny plays Quidditch, It's on the DA, It's on Gryffindoor. There is also the possible ones like grieving over Sirius, the rumor that Ginny may become or be animagus, Ginny being a seer. There are a lot of other plot lines that can be use for that. Off course I'm not sugesting that Ginny is going to be all that. But they are hundred posibilities on how they can be more toguether.

Is Harry going to stop going to Hermione for advice and help and instead go to Ginny? Is Hermione going to take any erosion of her closeness to Harry lying down?

I think that in terms of battle they will all be united. I have always said that Hermione part of the trio is being the brains the researcher. It will continure to be her role. But this kids in terms of solving puzzles all work toguether.

Both Ginny and Luna are in a year below Harry, Hermione and Ron. So the pattern of the trio spending so much class time and after hours study time together must continue unless there is a volcanic upheaval in their friendship.

I insist that jkr will separate the trio. It's not like they won't talk to each other. But they would spend less time toguether mainly because I believe that the trio will start to take different directions and they will take different classes.

Ginny and Luna's magical learning and experience is at a more junior level than the trio's therefore they can't help Harry with studies or advice to the same level as Hermione can. And Hermione, as each book tells us, is advanced for her age, the best student overall of her year.

The fact that Hermione is smart doesn't mean that Harry has to be with her romantically. PLus I believe that Ginny and Luna are also smart. Yes I agree that Hermione is brilliant. That there is no question of it but it shouldn't be the only criteria.

It's curious that JKR made other candidates for Harry's heart apart from Hermione belonging to different years than the two of them. Cho is a year ahead and in a different house, Luna is a year behind and in a different house, Ginny is a year behind and in the same house.

Ok I maybe a little slow. Luna love interest of Harry? :nc:
Please help me shed light on that point.


Gily Ann

[AvadaKedavra]

Thanks, Dream Princess. Hey, is the sun still up in New York? It's pitch black here in London, and effin' hot too- 34 degrees today! Whew...

Back on topic

It's interesting that Harry and Hermione have never had a serious, serious argument. Ron/Hermione in POA, Harry/Ron in GOF.

To tell the truth, when you have a serious argument with someone and make up properly, it brings you closer. Well, that's IMO.

[AvadaKedavra]

Just how difficult is it going to be to wean Harry away from his two best friends - one of whom happens to be her big brother - to spend time alone with her?

Not very. We see examples of this in OOTP, the library scene most notably. Plus I sensed a maturing drift between the trio- Ron was off to quidditch and stuff, Hermione was revising and doing her normal stuff, Harry was doing a record number of detentions, yelling his head off at R/Hr for half of the book, Occlumency lessons, and quidditch before he was banned. There is diversification.

BTW, Ron is a H/G shipper, so he will be more than happy to leave H/G alone in their "quality time" on the pretext of discussing quidditch tactics. Ginny's gonna try out for chaser, remember. Ho-ho.

EDIT:

Sorry, didn't realise I had already posted- sorry for double posting. I posted, and on my browser, it appeared that I started a new page. I went a page back to see what I missed, saw some lovely points by Gily Ann decided to support them, forgot that I had already posted, and well... better shut up... :scared:

[Falcon]

HAWK!!!!! :welcome: back man!

MEM I'm gonna have to request a military grade hyperdrive, some heavy duty armor plating, and a pair of Dennia Quad Guns; FAP is a dangerous place, and I need everything I can get my hands on. Furthermore, I'm searching for more Anna pics, and you have to visit some pretty shady areas, so a little help would be appreciated.

H/Hr's Great Posts! :clap: :clap:

I'll be TRYING to catch up on the posts and offer my opinions/interpretations.

Falcon

[_BT_]

wow.. 3 pages since my last reply... anyways:

Augurey: So close in fact that Harry is prepared to listen to Hermione's girl advice, which i have found some boys (perticuly around Harry's age) to be rather senstive about. No man likes to admit that they are completly clueless when it comes to relationships, and although a lot of them are (no pun intended), they are still reluctant to show it, that is why when i first read OoTP, i was suprised at how Harry felt no alkwardness to listening to Hermione tell him what to do about Cho.

agreed. oh, and welcome to the site.

Augurey: The most logical explanation i can come up with, is that there is not going to be platonic feelings between the two of them forever, its only natrual that they will feel something between them, even if its only for a little while. I was briefly looking at a thread in Knockturn ally called 'Can a girl and a boy ever really just be good friends' its quite interesting actually and i recommend you take a look at it, as it brings up quite a lot of valued points, to do with both H/Hr and R/Hr. I believe, No, a girl and a guy will never be able to be just friends, even if they don't act upon feelings, one of them at least will have a thought, whether brief or not, about the other in a romantic sense.

i agree as well.

Sirius Black: I just came up to this thread so I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But I'll just put in my views whatsover. All I'm saying is Harry and Hermione have no chance because in book 5, she was acting like his mother. But Ron and Hermione still might have a chance. I feel Harry will end up with Ginny though. Wonder what lessons Bill was giving Fleur Delacour though.

they have no chance because she was acting like his mother? first off, it's debateable whether she was acting like his "mother" and even if she was, how does that prevent the pairing. i agree that ron and hermione have a chance. harry will not end up with ginny in my opinion. as for the lessons, lol i'm sure they were interesting

Delirium: No she wasn't. If anything her actions reflected the deep level of concern that Hermione actually felt for Harry.

agreed.

Fairydust: In many instances he's reminded of Mrs. Weasley when he sees Hermione and Ron bickering. That's something.

that's nothing. no conclusive evidence just because harry is reminded of a married couple in their bickering. he's just comparing their arguments with people he knows that always seem to argue. the only possible thing that can be derived from this is -maybe- foreshadowing, but even that is sketchy and up to interpretation.

FlyingPhoenix: Off course this girl is freaking out if this guy tells her he dreams about Voldemort and see what he dos or more worst this dreams go both ways. Off course she annoy him that he learn occlumancy properly.

i agree with your interpretation over the interpretation that she's acting like a mother.

noddwyd: The biggest one being that it 'rings true' when at this point all the others would seem fake and contrived.

the worst pairing (and this is just my take) would be h/g. not only would it feel fake but there's no chemistry between the two, no deep relationship, and all evidence i've seen so far of so called "subconcsious" feelings are extrapolations on very trivial parts in the book.

AK: I'm sorry, but you seem to be assuming that Ron perhaps does not have feelings for Hermione in that way? Well, that's a new line of argument, for sure! Come on! There are clues hidden in the books apart from those instances. You should, even from a H/Hr view point be able to find them. It seems we have gone back to primitive beginings, in that we are disputing fundamental points, whether Ron likes Hermione.

it may be a fundamental, primitive point so to speak-- but it's one that in reading that past 60 pages of this debate, i believe, has never truly been established to be true. the previous hidden clues (some of which are mentioned in you 5-point theory) are really up to interpretation. i don't think it can be conclusively proven that this so called clues point to ron's feelings for hermione.

noddwyd: I'm talking about the post-kiss scene, which can be interpreted in many ways, and one of them, as I think someone already pointed out in an earlier post, is that it shows Ron's jealousy torwards them. He gets an 'unusually shrewd' expression on his face and says, "Maybe he doesn't want to go out with Cho" And then overreacts when Hermione says, "of course your not" about Harry being a bad kisser. He is also rolling around in the floor like an idiot when he hears Harry and Cho kissed, and Hermione 'finally gives him a look of deep disgust', meaning she finally realized exactly what he was so happy about.

hmmm... interesting perspective. i think it can still be argued that ron is uncomfortable talking about this kinda thing, in general, but-- this is the first good hint i've seen of a jealous ron feeling. i'm still not retracting my belief that ron feels nothing in that "way" for hermione, but you make a convincing point.

ana_banana: because Harry is not in love with Ginny right now, doesn't mean HELL NEVER BE. I agree with Gilly Ann mostly, especially when she said Harry's already showing signs.

i don't believe harry is showing any signs. he talks with ginny maybe 2-3 times in the book, and when he does there is no hard evidence of him feeling anything. in my opinion, they just don't share a relationship. of course, you're welcome to interpret his non-existant feeling as having "subconscious feelings" but that's really grapsing at thin air. also, it's possible he could develop feelings for ginny, but i don't think it will happen since we only got 2 books left (consider the rate at which JKR develops romance)-- that, and there's no foundation to work on (as opposed to hr/h)

FlyingPhoenix: Anyway now seriously don't you think Ron, no matter which ship you support, should get a girl who is not Hermione? I'm speaking about book 6.

yeah, and i'm hoping for luna

Fairydust: I really think that Ron and Hermione are perfect for each other. But there are people who will disagree. Fine. I mean, I wouldn't mind if Ron and Hermione dated people before actually getting together. I mean, Ron can go date Luna, Hermione can go date Harry, as long as it ends with Ron and Hermione together. Now this all remains to be seen but this is what i want.

i think harry and hermione are even more perfect for each other. they share a deeper friendship, have more respect for each other, and i believe the evidence up to this point favors h/hr more.

Turambar: Just a couple of things about the "friendship" aspect:a) Aren't both H/Hr and R/Hr friends? So why is there "no real chance" for H/Hr and "a lot of chances" for R/Hr?


highly agree.

Fairydust: No, I ship R/H and H/G because of the evidence. There is more R/H evidence than H/G evidence I admit. but what i do se of H/G i really believe in this ship. nothing, no arguments made by any H/Hr shipper or R/L shipper or whatnot will persuade me to change my thoughts about what I think will happen.

then you don't truly support the ship because of the evidence. if you did, than you _would_ change your mind if the evidence was disproven or proven to be circumstantial (which i believe most of it is). looks like you support it because it's what you want to see happen.... not that that is a bad thing, however :)

Fairydust: R/H and H/G and throw in N/L....

great-- hero's with the sister of his best friend who just happens to be with his other best friend, yay! one big happy family! now i mean no disrespect, but i find that the 'gang' all 'inter-marrying,' so to speak, is lame. i guess we all want something different though :)

GilyAnn: Even though H/Hr are friends and R/Hr are also. The difference in between the friendship is very different. R/Hr like each other. Hermione scolds over Fleur's attentions over Ron. She acts acidly when he remembers she is a girl. She is furious when his troll remark. All of them sings of (TO ME) that she likes Ron and Ron likes her back. They are non-platonic.

how do we know they like each other? the only examples you give are completely up to interpretation and are not conclusive. the scold could be a general dislike of veela; the gof post ball argument could be nothing more than bitterness over being a last chance girl and feeling inferior.

GilyAnn: We know that Ron is in love with Hermione but he doesn't know the depth of his feelings yet.

lol we don't know that for sure. the friendly moments between the two are up to interpretation.

and that's the problem. i think, because jkr has put the romance on a side-plot level and has either deliberately (or non-deliberately) ignored what seems to be one of the most (if not the most) talked about plot thread in the books and written very little about it... everyone's going to have a different interpretation of the events, and thus the debate will continue until jkr actually writes it in black n white. there's no REAL evidence that points FOR SURE in way or another... so although i would say i support hr/h more than any other pairing, i do recognize the fact that the other pairings are still very much alive... no possibilities are closed as of yet.. :tu:


on the post count thing... i too have lost around 15 posts or so... not that i have many to begin with as a poor newbie... but still, arg!!! :td:

[Mad-I Moody]

Hi Nia,
This was a few pages back, but I wanted to respond as soon as I found my book.

Concerning Hermione's voice, I think you may be referring to the Hermione of three books back. Please point out to us in GoF where Harry ever perceives Hermione's voice as 'shrill.' (Pats foot on floor waiting)

I have the UK paperback edition of GoF, and I'm on page 28. It says:
"At once, Hermione Granger's voice filled his head, shrill and panicky."

That's all I've come across on my re-read, but I'm only through the first nine chapters. I'll let everyone know if I come across anything else like this. ;)

EDIT: Here are a couple more, just for clarity.
pg 172 UK paperback of GoF:
'His slave, you mean!' said Hermione, her voice rising shrilly.
pg 462 UK paperback:
'This whole Tournament's supposed to be about getting to know foriegn wizards and making friends with them!' said Hermione shrilly.

EDIT: concerning this:
the worst pairing (and this is just my take) would be h/g. not only would it feel fake but there's no chemistry between the two, no deep relationship, and all evidence i've seen so far of so called "subconcsious" feelings are extrapolations on very trivial parts in the book.

I would call the whole Harry saving Ginny's life a beginning of a "deep relationship." That is quite a bond, after all. And we KNOW for a fact that Ginny once had feelings for Harry. I don't believe she just "got over it." I think she probably just supressed the feelings, thinking that she might never have a chance with famous Harry Potter. But she does help him out an awful lot in OotP. I think they have the potential for some serious chemistry -- but they haven't been really together enough to show it. But, as has been said and as will be repeated over and over and over again, this is an opinion, based on my interpretation of the books. :rolleyes:

[Turambar]

GilyAnn: I'll answer your points a bit later when I've got time but just on Luna: I mentioned her because some people think she's an option for Harry. Personally I think she's interested in Ron.

[Auror77]

You people seem to think platonic friends stay that way forever. Well, they certainly do not. As I said countless times, Harry and Hermione might be that way now, but that doesn't mean they will stay that way. I've nocticed Hermione is showing emotions and odd feelings that she hasn't shown before. You should all consider this.

[Mad-I Moody]

^^ well, the same could obviously be said for R/Hr. They are platonic friends....they could become more than friends.

[Sirius83]

Dreamprincess288! Did i mention it's good to have you back? Let me reply to your post now! :)

By the way, AK, Davey, Gily, etc - i know your views on these matters. I'm actually looking to see where one of the veteran COSForums R/Hr debaters stands on these issues.

I noticed that too! It seemed kind of odd to me how many times Harry had to ask Hermione if she was with them but he didn't need to question Ron once. I think Harry is aware of Hermione's loyalty, he knows in the end she will always be there for him but there are a few times where she hasn't stood by him and during OOTP nobody believes him and people he thought were his friends turned against him (Seamus, for example) so Harry was quite touchy when it came to the subject of loyalty throughout the book.

Hum...interesting. Well my view on the matter is that i found a parallel between the fights with Ron and Hermione. See, when Harry fought with Ron, we are told that he hated every bit of Ron at one point. After fighting with Hermione, he was impressed with how loyal she is to him. See, i don't think Harry has ever thought his friends truly disloyal - except for the GOF fight when it seemed Harry felt betrayed. However, i do believe he has always realised Hermione's loyalty, that is why they are the trio. Maybe i'm a bit rusty, but when has Harry questioned Hermione's loyalty? I'm talking about major issues by the way, not little disagreements where they may have differing views.

Love does not consist of gazing at each other, but looking outward together in the same direction. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

I believe this person is an H/Hr shipper yet for some reason it seems to resemble R/Hr for me. Ron and Hermione have had some ups and downs, fights, arguments, etc. Yet they've still stayed best friends which in some cases would seem kind of odd. Most people that I know that bicker that much don't stay friends for more than a year or two, and they certainly don't stay best friends. Which is one of the reasons I believe that the Ron/Hermione friendship is a lot stronger than some people give it credit for. Regardless of their arguing they seem to be looking towards the same goal: respecting and caring for one another as friends. I think during OOTP the trio has evened out, they are all equally best friends, and they all feel equally close to each other in means of friendship.

I think this is true of both ships actually. They're a trio of best friends after all. I do believe JKR is setting something up for a second Ron fallout - which won't be permanent mind you, but as far as OOTP is concerned these are the best of friends. As with Ron and Hermione, Harry and Hermione are quite different to each other, they're just more mature about dealing with things. They are however still different, but looking in the same direction.

As for the romance aspect, while I've always been an R/Hr shipper I can see why the H/Hr shippers see some future romance in store for them. I think that JKR has done her best to confuse us and has succeeded. She left off at the end of GOF with Harry still having feelings for Cho, Ron appearing to like Hermione, and Hermione's feelings being tucked away and not really given to the reader. A lot of people think that Harry may have liked Hermione in GOF but I don't think that because are told straight out that he likes Cho throughout the whole book. Some people also have said that Harry may have subconciously liked her but since we can always read Harry's thoughts, dreams, etc. there would have probably been some more hints if that was true.

I'd like to bring up two points where i believe we did get to see Harry's subconcious. There is a dream where Cho quite literally turns into Hermione, while Harry is realising how ridiculous the entire Cho affair is. I believe this is a sign of his romantic interest changing from Cho to Hermione, but told to us in a way that Harry won't be aware of it, while the clue is dropped for us the readers. The second part is where we are told that there is a part of Harry's subconcious that speaks in Hermione's voice. I think this is quite interesting and is another sign of showing where Harry's subconcious lies. What are your views on this?

So then OOTP picks up and while there are subtle clues of Ron still liking Hermione it's not as obvious as in GOF because there are bigger problems that the trio has to deal with at the moment so it seems as if Ron has put those feelings in the back of his mind temporarily so he can help the order. As for Harry, OOTP continues his Cho crush, and at the same time ends it. And Hermione's feelings are kept in the dark again. So we end OOTP not knowing who Hermione likes but having a sense that Ron and Harry may both like her since both has shown evidence during book 5. I do think that some light will be shed on Hermione's feelings in the next two books. I personally see an R/Hr ending but there may possibly be a H/Hr pairing in between, but I do think JKR will end the series with R/Hr and H/G.

On Hermione's feelings. What do you think of the following instances?

- Asking Harry to help her knit elf hats. When we saw her doing this in Ginny's company, she was just chatting away and letting magic do all the work. She also knows from GOF that Harry doesn't care for S.P.E.W. She does however ask him this when they are alone, does not include Ron in on it and her face is shining with excitement as she tells Harry how good she's gotten and waits for his reply.
- After Harry is kissed by Cho, her apparent displeasure at this happening(becoming businesslike, brisk, frowning, getting distant, vague, never smiling once...) and her complete lack of advice to him on Cho following this event.
- Her asking "brightly" about Harry's date after seeing him turn up to meet her early without Cho and then have Cho walk right by and sit with her back to Harry.
- (Edited to add this point) What about the flirting teacups? In Charms class she repairs Ron's teacup, but then has hers dance in circles around Harry's. It's like...flirting teacups, rofl.

By the way, considering we just have 2 books to go and we have already seen first crushes happen and end. Do you think we really have time to go through another failed relationship before the ending? Personally, i think the next one is the final one.

Now, as this is my first real post in this thread since OOTP I'm being quite general here, just touching on little things I noticed in the books. I used to post here quite often before May or so when school got in the way but I've definetly been away for a long time so I'm pretty lost with some of the recent issues since I haven't gone back and read the last 60+ pages and I don't think I'll ever have time too! But I'm gonna try and catch up but sorry if I repeat things that have already been said, I'll try my best not too!

Don't worry about repeating things, we'll end up doing it anyway. It's unavoidable and we'll be circling around until book 6 is out! Then we'll start the process again untill we get our paws...erm...hands...on book 7. :scared:

[Nia]

Quoting Mad I Moody:
Hi Nia,
This was a few pages back, but I wanted to respond as soon as I found my book.



I have the UK paperback edition of GoF, and I'm on page 28. It says:
"At once, Hermione Granger's voice filled his head, shrill and panicky."

That's all I've come across on my re-read, but I'm only through the first nine chapters. I'll let everyone know if I come across anything else like this. ;)

Ooops, :blush: must have missed a couple of those shrill Hermiones. Thank you for pointing that out. I do stand corrected.
Nia

[haycheng]

Did Hermione jealous/dislike Fleur because Hermione like Ron?
Fleur swooped down on hi too and kissed him. Hermine simply furious,
Someone try to use this quote and believe Hermione is angry because fleur kiss Hermione's love interest. That theory is indeed possible, just as H/Hr shipper interrupt theory. However, I will also offer a extra theory here.
Pg. 103-104 US version(veela enter)
"Harry what are you doing?" said Hermione's from a long way off.
skipped..
Hermione made a loud tutting noise. She reached up and pulled Harry back into his seat."Honestly!" she said.

It makes very clear that Hermione hate it when her friends is affect by female's beauty and act stupid. Look at how similiar the situation is, Hermione may simply angry because Ron is indeed acting stupid.

I am rereading OFTP. Trying to find all the R/Hr moment and post my viewpoint on all of them. Anyone has pg. no or quote? It will cut down my workload, and I will be deeply appreciated.

Regard R/Hr happen or not: Ever it indeed happens, it probably wont up to the expectation of R/Hr shipper. It is after all a book about Harry Potter. Nothing too interesting can come out of R/Hr, ever it happens.

cheer!

[sone]

Sone, I hadn't read your post, sorry for double-posting. I just want to say, I myself have had many friends who I bicker with every minute lol and I'm still close to them.

So do I but I am not talking about us. I am talking about Ron and Hermione.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. when Harry and ron had their falling out Hermione and Ron were still on good terms and they were talking and everything. Also, I think that they would be friends regardless of whether or not Harry was in the picture. Sure they probably would not have beome friends if it wasn't for the troll, but neither would Harry and Hermione be friends. Both Harry and Ron did not like Hermione before Halloween in the first book. Harry thought she was a person that couldn't mind her business. Ron thought that she was a knowitall. But their relationships have grown and they are all close friends. i don't think we should start discrediting friendships. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are all best friends.

I still do not think they would of lasted long without Harry. Too much arguing, too many differences. Eventually some rift would of came up and they wouldn't speak to each other.....again. There would be a better chance of Harry and Hermione becoming friends than Ron and Hermione. Granted, Harry did not think all that highly of Hermione but he was never as hard on her as Ron was and still is not. Harry at least thought of telling Hermione about the troll. Ron was too worried about getting chewed out by Percy and would of never considered it without Harry. Harry alone would have done it anyway. Harry was always more considerate of Hermione's abilities after they became friends. Without Harry, it would of never of happened between Ron and Hermione.

[legoami]

**Jumps out energetically**
Hey everyone! Please be nice to me!
**hands out laundry baskets to everyone** (Hey works for everyone i know :agree: )
Anywayz moving on....

I just wanted to say to all of you who devote themselves tirelessly, day and night, hour after hour, minute after minute, well you get my point.....to their certain ships, well i would tip my hat to you if i had one on. Yep, Yep i really would :agree: I really enjoy reading some of your interesting theories. :D

Now i personally prefer R/Hr (throws self on ground for protection :scared: waits a minute or so before feeling safe enough to get up) but hey thats just me and unfortunately i have to obey me because my mommy says so :agree:

Well happy day to y'all, keep debating, and drink lots of Snapple! :tu:

[GilyAnn]

how do we know they like each other? the only examples you give are completely up to interpretation and are not conclusive. the scold could be a general dislike of veela; the gof post ball argument could be nothing more than bitterness over being a last chance girl and feeling inferior.

That is YOUR interpretation and that is fine. You have the right too and I have no problem with that. But to me it's CLEAR that Ron likes Hermione and that Hermione likes Ron. Hermione had no reason to be so rude to Fleur and the post ball is a clear command to ME that she is encouraging Ron to invite her to the next ball. H/Hr shippers may see it differently but I see the attraction between R/Hr very corresponded by each other.

Gily Ann

[ana_banana]

leogami....the flirting with your sandwich quote is freakin funny lol.

[ana_banana]

two words: yule ball.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Whoa.. See what happens when I sleep for a couple hours.. I miss out on everything.. Will someone please tell me what were talking about now... What are we debating H/Hr R/Hr still?? Someone fill me in real quick...

[wahsup86]

Well I don't enjoy being a hassel, but this thread of mine was closed and I think everyone who supports a ship will find this interesting. At least here it cannot be closed, please just let me know what you think and if you agree with me. I posted this earlier in its own thread which was closed in 5 minutes, its an exact quote so if some of what is said seems odd, its just because this once had its own thread:

This thread is just a mini-petition for supporting the rights to individual threads for individual ships.

Earlier today I had a thread closed for asking supporters of another ship not to comment on the views of my own because I did not want a giant inter-ship argument in my thread. I just wanted to discuss details about my ship, with those who shared my beliefs without someone telling us we are wrong and pointing out every instance and making every contradiction they could. Now of course we have the famous “Who Will Fall In Love With Whom Thread?”, but that’s not enough. Let’s say I want to go in and share my opinions on the possibility of a Harry/Hermione ship with other Harry/Hermione shippers in this thread. It is impossible, because the second I do that, I got every Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny telling me every reason why I am wrong and they are right. And this goes for every ship out there. You can’t say something without the others attacking you. If you don’t believe go check the thread out for yourself, some people have written NOVELS supporting their views. Only to have them dissected quote by quote, analyzed by someone from another ship, and then they are told how and why each of these reasons are wrong. Personally I don’t see why Individual ships can’t have individual threads where we can talk amongst ourselves on our views without being attacked by others. They could even be OFFICAL threads like the “Who Will Fall In Love With Whom?” thread. I just want to be able to go into a thread with fellow supporters of Ron/Hermione, and discuss it without being attacked by someone from another ship. Now this same right should be given to those from Harry/Hermione, and Harry/Ginny and all other ships, for we are all equally guilty of criticizing each other. So if you feel the same way, and are for individual threads for individual ships, please just post in this thread as fast as you can with “I Agree” because I can guarantee you this thread won’t last long at all. I will be the first to “sign” it.




I Agree

[wahsup86]

And this was the reply I got"

"wahsup86,

I closed your last thread. The same fate awaits this one.

I doubt the love thread is so dysfunctional that you can't amicably debate future relationships with your fellow posters. Only having "dicussion" that reinforces your own beliefs isn't really the solution to the problem.

We've had one love thread for over a year and despite differences members have always managed to get along. We are not going to start having individual threads for individual ships.

*lock*"

I really don't mean to cause problems, but I just don't see a reasonable point to not allowing individual threads for individual ships. Any thoughts?

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Well dude.. If you want you can talk to Some mods... Submit a Comlaint.. I dont know if it will help but They have to listen to you.. Send a PM to the person that closed your thread..

But back on Topic.. Will some one tell me what were talking about now?

[wahsup86]

Thanks

[Turambar]

Can people please stop double posting. You just need to use the edit button.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

I havnt been Double posting have I? But Everyone lets get back on Topic Please!!!!

And to do this Some one needs to fill me in what we were talking baout before we were takin of topic...

[Auror77]

I forgot to say what book I thought I thought Hermione was actly a little odd in. It was of course OotP where she said and showed some particular statements and actions. Like when she asked Harry to join her when she was knitting elf hats or when she started crying when Umbridge was about to perform the Cruticious Curse on Harry. These depict something to me, what about you guys? Btw, when J.K. said that Harry and Hermione were platonical freinds, she said this a FEW years ago, in a past interview, right? Then she said nothing about anyone else right? Well, I did some digging on the web and found out, (atleast I'm sure) that this statement she made was made before PoA was released on the bookshelves! And it's true, he didn't go out on a date with Hermione, it was Cho! But this was in the past! Now maybe we will see a H/Hr relationship after all!!! Now that has been cleared, it might just prove there will be a chance between them!

[evaluna]

Hearty cheers to all my fellow shippers! Great posts all! And lovely work all round to those who tirelessly seek excellence...yes, from all sides of the house…though you all know I have my ship to man ;)

Just a few comments on various posts over the past few pages...sorry have to catch up all at once...

Original post by Hawk 92
And for fun lets use some syns.

solidarity-unity, harmony

loyalty- faithfulness, devotion,

I like unity and devotion (although I think that Harmony would fit the thread better) and so;

Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione's offer to accompany him into Unbridge's office as a sign of unity and devotion.

Light dawned on Marble head (Harry's head to be exact).

Hawk this is a particularly sweet theory. Cool sweet and adorable sweet. Here, here! The “unity and devotion” theory – and out of Harry’s head, no less! Yes Hawk, the eagle has finally landed!

[That’s an Apollo 11 ref & not a HH ref, for any of you no-history movie buffs]



[i]Original post by Sirius83[/i]
[quote]The dream does have a symbolism to it if you ask me. I've been saying for a while that the fact Cho(Harry's crush) turns into Hermione instead of just having Hermione enter the dream normally says a lot. As for it meaning that it is doomed from the start, i don't agree. It is Hermione's suggestions that makes Harry think the whole thing with Cho is ridiculous. It seems to me that Hermione is showing a problem in the H/C relationship while taking Cho's place in Harry's heart.

Harry doesn't conciously like Hermione thatw ay right now, so how would JKR let us know his inner feelings that even he does not realise yet? Through dreams and mentioning that part of his subconcious now speaks in Hermione's voice! [/quote]

Well said, [b]Sirius[/b]! The importance of the dream symbolism cannot be overstated regarding its ability to reveal to the readers how an otherwise unexamined Harry feels about Hermione. Also, re: the [b]below quote[/b] in the context of the CoS reunion hug scene, at the [i]very least[/i], red herring or no, it seems JKR clearly wanted to leave open the possibility of feelings between Harry and Hermione as well as between Hermione and Ron. As of OoP, moreover, it seems clear to me that H/Hr continue to move in the direction of “unity and devotion”, whilst the R/Hr ship IMO appears to have lost the bulk of what momentum it suddenly gather in GoF – and that largely from a heavily one-sided crush [R-->Hr].

[i]Original post by Sirius83[/i]
[quote]In the COS DVD interview, JKR says she felt the movie foreshadowed feelings between the THREE of them, not the two. This suggests Harry was involved in the "feelings" as well.[/quote]


Also...
[i]Original post by Sirius83[/i]
[quote]- Asking Harry to help her knit elf hats. When we saw her doing this in Ginny's company, she was just chatting away and letting magic do all the work. She also knows from GOF that Harry doesn't care for S.P.E.W. She does however ask him this when they are alone, does not include Ron in on it and her face is shining with excitement as she tells Harry how good she's gotten and waits for his reply[/quote]

[b]Sirius,[/b] I agree, especially in context of this scene, that Hermione was dropping a major hint that she wanted to spend time alone [sees, Harry, a rush of emotions/endorphins, and suddenly she’s not tired anymore? ready to knit elf hats ad infinitum? ;)]. I’m willing to bet that next time she offers, Harry takes her up on this [per "eagles have landed" theory, which means as soon as the nest eggs hatch [=when awareness becomes action], we're golden!].



[i]Original post by Nia[/i]
[quote]All the overt signs seemed to point to Hermione’s suppressed and Ron’s not-so-suppressed feelings for each other. It was "obvious." Harry, on the other hand, although I adored him, was much, much too complicated. Well, several re-readings later, I’ve changed my mind. Hermione is complicated too.[/quote]

[b]Nia[/b], well alright then!!! Cheers! ;)

[i]Original post by Nia[/i]
[quote]Hermione’s attraction to Harry (platonically speaking here) is not based on anything external because, quite frankly, there is not much external to look at. JKR goes to pains to try and give us a clear picture of Harry’s appearance—and Harry is NOT by any stretch of the imagination Dan Radcliffe. Hermione, who doesn’t see the importance of illusional packaging for herself is not turned off by the packaging of others, she ‘goes for the good stuff’ – those ephemeral things that present society seems to discount—character, integrity, courage, friendship… This is what makes her love Harry (as a friend) and I believe that this friendship has become so close that if and when they cross over into romantic love, it will be as natural as breathing.[/quote]

I really agree [per my earlier post :)] that the H/Hr bond is not based on externals, and is by its very depth fraught with complications. However, just a small point to clarify my earlier post. Although canon doesn’t say whether Harry is handsome from Harry’s POV [known implication being that Harry’s not vain or shallow;)], interestingly there are complementary third-party descriptions and reactions toward Harry [a “charming” face excepting lightning bolt scar –that’s a fairly [shallow but] complementary term to describe a young man and highly unnecessary in context, i.e., Skeeter’s article on his life’s dirt and various goss to date] and there is nothing contradictory to this in canon to indicate that he’s plain, only that he’s initially smaller till OoP, athletic but thin.

I think JKR has taken great pains not to paint the characters as stereotypically glamorous or intrinsically plain. Harry’s not Cedric [BTW notice Cedric’s generic description of “handsome”, i.e. a conventional and therefore rather uninteresting “type”] but who’s to say he’s not striking in his own right? Now that JKR has carefully eluded any neat stereotypes of pretty boy OR geek, for which I heartily applaud her, who cares? My point being that Harry could be DDG as well [per canon Harry seems quite alright though a bit scruffy from my reading and like Hermione could likewise give a fig about his appearance –- & I think [b]Sone[/b] has some good posts on how females in canon positively perceive Harry], but bottom line: it really wouldn’t matter – not to Hermione, who loves him [whether platonically or more] for who he is and sees him through the eyes of this love, and not to prejudicial and judgmental others such as the Slytherins at Hogsmeade and their ilk OR much of the unexamined wizarding world [the former who would judge him on the basis of his tatty clothes and unkempt, anti-‘pretty boy’ appearance, AND the latter who would unquestioningly judge him on the basis of slander and misrepresentation], who may never see him for who is on any level.

All in all great post, [b]Nia[/b], & I really like your case-by-case explanation of why H/Hr is so much more believeable than the others.



[i]Original post by GilyAnn[/i]
[quote]
Quote: Unless we are talking about love at first sight which is not applicable for any of the exisiting ships, doesn't love have to grow from somewhere i.e. friendship?

[GilyAnn: response]
Sorry but I don't believe so. It can grow from friendship but they are hundreds of ways to find love also. Apparently JKR thinks that way also. Look on how James and Lily were. Lily loath James, she really dislike him for his arrogance but once he stopped hexing people and being a person again. She went out with him. So while love can grow from friendship it isn't the only way that you can find love.[/quote]

[b]GilyAnn[/b], you’re entitled to your opinion, of course. And no one’s disagreeing that there are as many paths to love as to God or higher spirit. However, your statement that love can sometimes grow from hate is the [disturbing] exception that proves the rule. And this love-to-hate transformation occurred here only because James essentially made over his huge flaws [cruelty, arrogance, coldness of heart toward the weak and vulnerable] and transformed himself into a man worthy of admiration because of this lifechanging love he already possessed for Lily. Right, does any of this sound like Ron? Either the darkness [flaws] or the light [transformation, will to power, lifechanging love]? Harry is however, potentially a lot like his father except that his darkness already been not wholly but largely transformed by this light [Lily’s input] plus his own life experiences, resulting instead in a fundamentally good and compassionate nature. I strongly disagree that Ron [and whomever, whether Hermione or other] is comparable with James as he was at Ron’s age currently –- and I say this because I like Ron. Please see below from prior post as to my thoughts.

I have a prior post on this from p. 16 of this thread if you want to check it out. It is dealing with the topic from canon/Harry’s POV. I have clipped just the relevant part regarding why Ron is not like James, and why Ron and Ron’s potential relationships cannot and should not [for Ron’s sake] be compared to James Potter and his.

What Constitutes a Positive Relationship? And Extrapolating from Harry's POV? (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=481079&postcount=464)

EDIT: I fixed the link ...+ those on p. 54 of thread as well/Sorry!


[i]Original post by evaluna[/i]
[quote]Note further that I am NOT making ANY kind of direct parallel but only discussing Harry's POV on relationships. To wit, let me demonstrate further the lack of parallel between James and Ron regarding relationships: Although Harry doesn't feel very good about his parents' relationship at this point, nonetheless we could see that James was still very considerate toward Lily. Why? Because James liked her, even though she didn't think much of him. Either Ron is a LOT more ego-centered and immature even than James was at 15 in Harry's mind [given James' behaviour, is this really likely? And Ron is not as cruel], or more likely, Ron's feelings for Hermione are not as deep as James' feelings for Lily at all but rather are superficial and evoke only sporadic, unjustified feelings of jealousy which are not enough to overcome their rather large differences in character, temperament, interests, and background. Remember James obviously made huge changes in basic character to win Lily's love, almost a superhuman effort, based on his own feelings. Of course, as I've said before, it's not to say Ron won't row over Hermione regardless of whether his feelings eventually prove anywhere near as deep as Harry's, simply because Ron's kneejerk pride has consistently been a weakness.

No sign of Ron doing this [and only very small signs of any maturity period in OoP] & thus the whole crush thing, whilst true for Ron at the moment, is well overplayed IMO. Thus far there is not enough common ground in their personalities to really ever get along well. Remember James and Lily weren't even friends and thus the expectation of courtesy toward one another should be even higher for Hermione and Ron as existing friends. I think the whole UST argument for rudeness equating secretly to lust or even love is very lowbrow and I don't think that's JKR at all. I think picking on the girl or boy you like goes out in primary school, and even if Ron is a bit immature even he's not that far gone. He's a nice enough bloke, but he's just not the one for Hermione -- evidenced by her overall lack of response to Ron in any way beyond friendship-- particularly in OoP, and not a particularly deep friendship at that, especially vis-a-vis Harry and Hermione's relationship.

This reinforces the argument some have put forth that Hermione and Ron have a much smaller overlapping pool of respect for one another as individuals than they each do for Harry, and that he is for each the main friend. H and R do each respect some things about the other, but not enough to tip the balance in their overall views of and corresponding behaviour toward one another. This is especially obvious regarding Hermione, as she spends a majority of her spare non-study time with Harry in OoP. And even if Hermione were suddenly to fall for Ron, for which I absolutely see no evidence, IMO a love relationship without respect is doomed to failure, as the other stuff will get you only so far. Without a substantial overhaul of both characters [and who wants that?], I don't see how JKR can make this credible. I still see it as one-sided R--.>Hm, as so many of the crushes in this series have been, and I think even for Ron this must somehow pass if he is to ever find someone whom he can mutually respect and thus truly love.[/quote]



[i]Original post by Flying Phoenix[/i]
[quote]Thats why I do think OBHWF is logical and to easy. There you don't has any problems and how AK shows with his 5-steps-theory it is without any problems straight to R/Hr and that is easy love. All what they need to do by this theory is to make a move and everything is allright.[/quote]

Agreed. Great post.


[i]Original post by PotterFreak[/i]
[quote]You see this as a bad thing. It's taken him 5 years to finally realize this. I see this as a good thing. It's a sign of Harry's maturity. And he realizes that no matter how much he throws a fit (in book 5) Hermione no matter what will always be there to help him. He comes to realize that she will always be there for him.[/quote]

Well said!

Cheers all!

[Mad Eye Mike]

wahsup86,

cosforums does not have single ship threads. If you want to discuss R/Hr only, go to the Sugar-Quill (http://www.sugarquill.net/forum/index.php?).

Falcon - All your request have been granted. Ask and ye shall receive. ;)

Back on topic...

[noddwyd]

Actually Auror, I think we have all agreed to use canonical evidence only, and not quotes from interviews. And all the things JKR has said in interviews can be viewed many ways. Just like canon can be interpreted many ways. She is being very cryptic, and tricksy with us.

[Daveydee]

Well this must be a first. I'm agreeing with ^^.

Whasup86 - As Mike rightly says Sugarquill only recognises R/Hr, and I beleive www.portkey.org is very much H/Hr.

But it seems pretty pointless and unstimulating to have a debate where everybody is in agreement. In fact that's no debate at all. And, I think on this particular topic it's pretty near impossible to treat the issue in such an isolated context without looking at and examining the other potential ships.

Sirius, I see your post on the previous page. I'll examine your points and come back on them. Like you, I seem a little rusty at the moment having been off topic for a couple of days.

[Hawk 92]

AK

Hawk

If you want to prolong this debate, I'm more than happy to do so.

Ok. I haven't heard a release date for book 6 yet.

Hawk, if you're not the captain, stop acting like one then. (and everyone treats you like one. BTW, when I said "most celebrated and skilful debater) I was joking. You are absolutely right- there are also other excellent and skilful debaters on the Harmony. Earendil. Sirius83, Perdita, MEM, Evaluna,Ikeyli (can't spell it sorry!) and others spring to mind.

When did I ever act like a captain or did the others treat me as the captain? But you and I agree on the rest so here's a :clap: to the true greats of the HMS Harmony.

If you want to remain professional and not allow friendly banter and jokes and compliments come into the debate, then that's fine by me.

Time and place. In the middle of a heated debate is neither the time or the place for a joke. It is often misinterpeted and viewed as sarcasm or a plain old insult instead of fun.

Note the bolded parts. Well, it's self explanatory, but I'll go a bit further, as to make sure there is no misunderstanding. Hermione does not "realise", when Fleur kisses Ron. Not as simple as that. There is no "light" switched on. There is a gradual process, as I have explained, which is started by the external stimuli. Through OOTP, this subconscious examination produces some feelings for Ron, which are slowly coming into her conscious. The reason for this "slowness", as I have said countless times, is due to problems of "logicality" and insecurity, and the scope of their friendship. Repeated many times through my essay.

See the problem is that I don't accept your interpetation which is necessary to examine the clues. When I submit a theory I offer the clues then give my speculation and then form my theory. Your theory depends on me accepting your interpetation in order for the clues to make sense but I don't accept your interpetation. I would rather examine the clues independant then form a theory.

I don't seem to remember this. But if you give me the chapter and page nos, I'll go and have a look at it. Even so, I did say he started to realise/accept. I don't think this process of acceptance is complete-but it is nearly complete (at the end of OOTP).

Gof Ch 27 Padfoot Returns 509-510

What? Post Yule Brawl! The poor bugger was visibly affronted by the whole thing. He was (and still is) terrified of another repeat of it! The process has started.

Your text to support this.

Now lets see if we can find a little common ground to return this to a debate and not an argument.

1) Can we call it subconscious clues instead of subconscious examination since the definition is

sub·con·scious
unconscious part of the mind: mental activity not directly perceived by your consciousness, from which memories, feelings, or thoughts can influence your behavior without you realizing it

just a minor point to help me understand.

Now you state that Hermione subconsciously is reacting to Fleur now here are Hermione's 3 reactions to Fleur

The first time it is tartly at the welcoming dinner
The second time it is furiously after the second task
The third time it is scowled at the train station

Now the 2 times Hermione reacts to Fleur with out Ron around are
bristling and snapped

You have to admit that 4 out of 5 are pretty weak responses.

Cheers!

[GilyAnn]

washup86 if you like shipping threads go here (http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/index.php?s=) under SCUSA. They have a thread for every ship and you CAN'T post counter aruguments they are only for shipping reasons. So only go in to the one's you are interested. Whether cannon or Fannon.

GilyAnn, you’re entitled to your opinion, of course. And no one’s disagreeing that there are as many paths to love as to God or higher spirit. However, your statement that love can sometimes grow from hate is the [disturbing] exception that proves the rule. And this love-to-hate transformation occurred here only because James essentially made over his huge flaws [cruelty, arrogance, coldness of heart toward the weak and vulnerable] and transformed himself into a man worthy of admiration because of this lifechanging love he already possessed for Lily. Right, does any of this sound like Ron? Either the darkness [flaws] or the light [transformation, will to power, lifechanging love]? Harry is however, a lot like his father except that his darkness already been not wholly but largely transformed by this light [Lily’s input], plus his own life experiences. I strongly disagree that Ron [and whomever, whether Hermione or other] is comparable with James as he was at Ron’s age currently –- and I say this because I like Ron. Please see below from prior post as to my thoughts.

I have a prior post on this from p. 16 of this thread if you want to check it out. It is dealing with the topic from canon/Harry’s POV. I have clipped just the relevant part regarding why Ron is not like James, and why Ron and Ron’s potential relationships cannot and should not [for Ron’s sake] be compared to James Potter and his.

I'm not comparing R/Hr with james and Lily. What I was saying is that Love can grow from Hate. And that Lily and James are part of that line that jkr seems to like. The fact is that James was an immature guy. Who still did had his fun but not in front of Lily. Even Sirius said that. I'm not comparing one with the other. I'm simply saying that there are many ways to fall in love with someone.

Remember James obviously made huge changes in basic character to win Lily's love, almost a superhuman effort, based on his own feelings. Of course, as I've said before, it's not to say Ron won't row over

I'm sorry no he didn't. If he *really* would have done that superhuman effort he would have stopped the moment she felt discousted at him. What changed was his perspective, his mature. Ron is 20 times better than James. Ron never hexes people out of the pure pleasure or because he is 'bored', Ron feels compassion for people and even questions his beliefs in some areas.

Ron is never selfcenter. His priorities are his two friends and he defends fiercely to anybody that has the audacity to insult Hermione. If he *realy* would be that egocenter he wouldn't care just like James didn't care. James wanted Lily to like him but he wanted to continue being the selfish little ***** that he was. He likes her a lot but the fact is tha he wasn't making an effort because he was selfcenter. Everything had to be about him not about the others.

I'm sorry but Ron is NEVER like James. James was a cruel a*****. Ron has never been one. The fact is that Harry is paying the cruelty of his father. Ron has never done that and I have no doubt that he'll never be.

This reinforces the argument some have put forth that Hermione and Ron have a much smaller overlapping pool of respect for one another as individuals than they each do for Harry, and that he is for each the main friend. H and R do each respect some things about the other, but not enough to tip the balance in their overall views of and corresponding behaviour toward one another. This is especially obvious regarding Hermione, as she spends a majority of her spare non-study time with Harry in OoP.

First Harry and Hermione spend time toguether because Ron was in Quidditch Practice and Harry was banned. So please don't say it was because she didn't want to be with him because that's not true. If there was one thing that it was obvious in OoP is how much of good friends Ron and Hermione are. Don't undermine their friendship because of your ship. While I do agree to say that Ron and Hermione have some road to walk the idea that they dont' have much in common is simply not true. They spend a summer toguether, they do prefect duties toguether, talk about Harry when his not around, go to hogsmade, do homework, go to the quidditch games toguether, worrry over Harry's well being. Ron and Hermione have alot of common ground. It's funny that those moments are usually undermined by the H/Hr or simply call unexistant by saying that Hermione spend her time with Ginny. This when we saw that when Harry got there they were alone in Ron's room. They had been obviously there waiting for him.

And even if Hermione were suddenly to fall for Ron, for which I absolutely see no evidence, IMO a love relationship without respect is doomed to failure, as the other stuff will get you only so far. Without a substantial overhaul of both characters [and who wants that?], I don't see how JKR can make this credible. I still see it as one-sided R--.>Hm, as so many of the crushes in this series have been, and I think even for Ron this must somehow pass if he is to ever find someone whom he can mutually respect and thus truly love.

Did James and Lily failed? No they went out until the end. There is no reason why a relationship like that will failed. And by all means Ron and Hermione's relationship is not a love - hate relationship. They are friends, Ron has shared his family with Hermione, They study toguether and do lot's of things toguether. Ron and Hermione relationship is not the same as Lily and James and jet they survived and live thru. Who's to say that Ron and Hermione won't be the same way or even better?

Gily Ann

[Dreamprincess288]

Dreamprincess288! Did i mention it's good to have you back? :)

Aww thanks! I didn't know if anyone would remember me since there are so many new people here! It's good to back though, time to restart the endless circle of bitter debates, heated arguments, sweet comprimises, and friendly discussion better know as the love thread! ;)

First of all, I have a comment to make: Although everyone knows I'm an R/Hr and H/G shipper, that is just because it my personal prefrence. But at the same time if the story does end up with an H/Hr pairing it won't bother me. I trust JKR and she has never failed me yet, I always love what she writes. So just to let you and everyone know, I am an R/Hr shipper who doesn't mind H/Hr either so I have no problem accepting if I was wrong if someone proves to me that evidence I thought of as R/Hr actually works better for H/Hr.

Okay, so now that's out in the open let me reply to your thread!

Hum...interesting. Well my view on the matter is that i found a parallel between the fights with Ron and Hermione. See, when Harry fought with Ron, we are told that he hated every bit of Ron at one point. After fighting with Hermione, he was impressed with how loyal she is to him. See, i don't think Harry has ever thought his friends truly disloyal - except for the GOF fight when it seemed Harry felt betrayed. However, i do believe he has always realised Hermione's loyalty, that is why they are the trio. Maybe i'm a bit rusty, but when has Harry questioned Hermione's loyalty? I'm talking about major issues by the way, not little disagreements where they may have differing views.

For one thing, the Harry/Hermione fight in OOTP wasn't exactly a fight. It was more of a disagreement that lasted all of maybe 5 minutes! So it was not as if Harry had time to broad on what Hermione was doing and come to the conclusion that he "hated" her. With Ron on the other hand they were fighting for about a month so it seems reasonable that Harry would say he "hated" Ron, but can you honestly tell me that you've never been so angry at someone that you say you hate them although deep down you really do care about them? And the reason you "hate" them so much is that because you care about them you expect them to feel the same way about you and when they don't it hurts the most. I do believe that if Hermione was to have a major fight with Harry, the way Harry did with Ron he would feel very angry towards her as well. Anyway, about Harry questioning Hermione's loyalty, there wasn't any major issue in the book where this occured, just minor things such as going to save Sirius and Hermione's feelings about Hagrid coming back to teach. The only reason I felt the need to point these out, even though they weren't big issues, was that it showed some of the first times that Harry was bickering with Hermione. I just thought that was interesting since normally it's Ron and Hermione who bicker and in this book they seemed to be getting along better than Harry and Hermione at times.

I think this is true of both ships actually. They're a trio of best friends after all. I do believe JKR is setting something up for a second Ron fallout - which won't be permanent mind you, but as far as OOTP is concerned these are the best of friends. As with Ron and Hermione, Harry and Hermione are quite different to each other, they're just more mature about dealing with things. They are however still different, but looking in the same direction.

I can see what you mean but somehow I still see that quote pointing more towards R/Hr, but I'm not gonna argue that point, it's just my opinion. As for a Ron fallout, I really don't see that happening, I actually felt that during OOTP Ron seemed to be the one who was the least likely of falling out. He seemed to be okay with both Harry and Hermione and I personally see more of a breif Hermione fallout coming soon, but that's just me.

I'd like to bring up two points where i believe we did get to see Harry's subconcious. There is a dream where Cho quite literally turns into Hermione, while Harry is realising how ridiculous the entire Cho affair is. I believe this is a sign of his romantic interest changing from Cho to Hermione, but told to us in a way that Harry won't be aware of it, while the clue is dropped for us the readers. The second part is where we are told that there is a part of Harry's subconcious that speaks in Hermione's voice. I think this is quite interesting and is another sign of showing where Harry's subconcious lies. What are your views on this?

As for the dream, could someone please give me the page number for it in the American Edition? I do remember reading this but I'd like to reread it before I reply, except I can't remember when it happened! As for Hermione's voice being in his subconcious, I've never viewed that as a romantic feeling. It always has reminded me of the way your mom's voice pops into your head when you know you're going to do something wrong. Hermione has always been the one to give Harry advice because she has more knowledge than Ron. And while both Harry and Ron don't always like to admit it they know she's right, and when I read that Hermione's voice is inside Harry's head I've always seen it almost as if he subconciously thinks "What would Hermione do in this situation? Did she ever tell me that (insert here) is dangerous?" It almost seems as if Hermione is his guilty concious which he refers to when he is unsure of what he is doing is right or not, kind of the way people think of what their parents will think before they do something.

On Hermione's feelings. What do you think of the following instances?

- Asking Harry to help her knit elf hats. When we saw her doing this in Ginny's company, she was just chatting away and letting magic do all the work. She also knows from GOF that Harry doesn't care for S.P.E.W. She does however ask him this when they are alone, does not include Ron in on it and her face is shining with excitement as she tells Harry how good she's gotten and waits for his reply.
- After Harry is kissed by Cho, her apparent displeasure at this happening(becoming businesslike, brisk, frowning, getting distant, vague, never smiling once...) and her complete lack of advice to him on Cho following this event.
- Her asking "brightly" about Harry's date after seeing him turn up to meet her early without Cho and then have Cho walk right by and sit with her back to Harry.
- (Edited to add this point) What about the flirting teacups? In Charms class she repairs Ron's teacup, but then has hers dance in circles around Harry's. It's like...flirting teacups, rofl.

It's true that Harry doesn't care about SPEW but he's not quite as open with his dislike as Ron is. Ron takes every chance to tell Hermione to give it up while Harry kind of sits on the sidelines watching, but doesn't get involved. When I read that scene I always thought that Hermione was asking Harry because of her two best friends he would be the most likely to help her, which is true, and that she wants to share her excitement of making better hats with someone who is less likely to make fun of her for it, and that's Harry. As for the kiss with Harry/Cho, it kind of seemed as if Hermione had been waiting for it to happen. I took her "business" like attitude as being "It's about time, you've been so clueless to the fact she liked you!" It seemed to me she was talking in the same tone as she does when she briskly tells Harry and Ron some obvious fact about the wizarding world that she's frustrated that they don't already know. Next, about the "brightly" comment, I'm not too sure on that one. I'm not at my normal computer so I don't have the books piled up next to me but I'll check it later and let you know. As for the teacups... LMAO!!! I don't even think I need to address what I think of that one! :lol:

By the way, considering we just have 2 books to go and we have already seen first crushes happen and end. Do you think we really have time to go through another failed relationship before the ending? Personally, i think the next one is the final one.

That's true, I do kind of agree that they next relationship will be final but at the same time, and maybe this is just wishful thinking, I have a feeling JKR is gonna throw a curve ball in the story, nothing too drastic though, just something to shake things up a bit.

Don't worry about repeating things, we'll end up doing it anyway. It's unavoidable and we'll be circling around until book 6 is out! Then we'll start the process again untill we get our paws...erm...hands...on book 7. :scared:

Yup, we've all become slaves to the pen and paper of JKR, like I stated above, it's what I call the endless circle of bitter debates, heated arguments, sweet comprimises, and friendly discussion better know as the love thread! ;)

Signing off and wishing everyone a goodnight!

~ Dreamprincess288 ~

[Mad Eye Mike]

As for the dream, could someone please give me the page number for it in the American Edition? I do remember reading this but I'd like to reread it before I reply, except I can't remember when it happened!


Page 462.

[Dreamprincess288]

Thanks!

[Sirius83]

Aww thanks! I didn't know if anyone would remember me since there are so many new people here! It's good to back though, time to restart the endless circle of bitter debates, heated arguments, sweet comprimises, and friendly discussion better know as the love thread!

Well, there are a couple of us from those early threads still around :p
Now on topic...

Well, on the topic of the fight i'm going to have to agree with you. It was indeed short lived...although you may remember the POA fight which lasted for a while but Harry never had any ill feelings towards Hermione. In fact he understood why she did it and when he got the Firebolt back the first thought on his mind was to make up with Hermione. Anyway, back to what i was saying. The hate thing, i see where you're coming from, but i thought that was a bit extreme from Harry. As for Harry and Hemrione having these mini-fights, let's remember something. Harry was hot tempered with everyone in the book. That said, let it never again be said that Harry and Hermione's relationship is too perfect! :p

On a brief Hermione fallout...you know, i would agree with you, except that after all that happened, i don't think so. I mean, i think Harry is going to realise what his temper and his not listening to others did in OOTP. After all, it cost him the life of his godfather and i think it more likely that Harry will start acting on what Hermione says more than before rather than get angry with her and have a falling out. Hermione is on Harry's side and acts in his best interests - and i honestly believe he knows this. This is quite a different scenario to the circumstances that led up to the falling out with Ron. Additionally, Harry is more than likely going to be too depressed over what happened to Sirius to be really doing much else than needing his friends more than ever. If another fallout occurs, it will more than likely by started by the other person, and i really can't see Hermione turning her back on Harry when he needs her the most. It's just contrary to the traits JKR has given the character.

On Ron and Hermione getting along better than Harry and Hermione...i'm not exactly sure where i would stand on this. Hermione has shown soft spots for Ron such as when he got Percy's letter and was tearing it up and throwing it in the fire...but other times she was downright nasty with him. At the start of this thread following OOTP's release, i said this in one of my first posts: OOTP had Ron take one step forward in making R/Hr happen, but had Hermione take one backwards from it and two towards H/Hr.

The dream. It is in chapter 21, "The Eye of the Snake" shortly after the post-kiss scene. It's on page 462 of the US hardcover edition. In a nutshell, Cho was saying Harry lured him to the DA room under false pretences and that he promised her 150 Chocolate Frog cards. Not long after, Cho turned into(thats the part that gets me...why turned into?) Hermione, who was saying he did promise and he should give Cho his Firebolt instead. Harry says the whole thing was ridiculous. I find it odd that while he's finding the Cho affair ridiculous, Cho(his crush) turns into Hermione. It's quite an interesting passage you have to admit.

Now here's the thing with the voice. Yes, sometimes it is like a mothers voice when you're going to do something, but - a girlfriends or wifes voice comes in the same way. Harry's mother figure is Mrs. Weasley, not Hermione. A lot of the times when people say Hermione is "mothering" Harry, she's acting a lot like a girlfriend rather than just a friend.

On Harry and SPEW, here's the thing. There was a time Harry and Hermione were in The Three Broomsticks and Harry asked her when she was going to give up on it. Now, was she just asking for some help, or was she out to spend some time alone with Harry? I really think it's the latter. Look at the scene where the prefect badges arrive. Hermione is seriously disappointed when Harry did not get the badge and was not nearly so thrilled at it being Ron. She had come tearing into the room and it seemed as though she was quite thrilled at the prospect of being prefects with Harry. The two instances back each other up in showing Hermione wanting to spend time alone with Harry away from the trio. A third instance to be considered is how she so willingly went with Harry and Hagrid to see Grawp. I mean the girl didn't even ask for herself if she could stay behind and watch the match, or if they could all just go after. She let Harry ask the latter question and then follow without a single objection.

As for the kiss with Cho, i agree she had been waiting on it to happen. However, her reaction seemed as though it actually happening caught her off guard. However, there are a few things that need to be pointed out. There's the fact that she never smiled even once, and the fact that afte rbeing brisk and businesslike(keeping ehr emotions out) she frowns, becomes distant, vague...it really didn't seem as though she was happy that H/C was not just a little crush, but something that had just become reality. She was also quite anxious to ask if he was nice to her(asking if the kiss didn't actually mean anything?) and if he intended to see her again. Following this, she once again becomes distant.

Yes, please do get back to me on the brightly bit...and don't laugh at the flirting teacups! They're magical and have legs, so why can't they flirt?! :lol: No seriously though, it's part of the HMS Harmony symbolism. I can repost the symbolism and post-kiss analysis essays for you if you like.

I do think we may see a curveball, but i think it will be in the effect of Ron/Luna. Luna seems quite interested in him and this interest doesn't seem to bother Ron at all.

[crazyforharry]

cool harry and hermione song:

you set me free-michelle branch

Can't you see?
There's a feeling that's come over me
Close my eyes
You're the only one that leaves me completely breathless

No need to wonder why
Sometimes a gift like this you can't deny

'Cause I wanted to fly, so you gave me your wings
And time held its breath so I could see, yeah
And you set me free

There's a will
There's a way
Sometimes words just can't explain
This is real
I'm afraid
I guess this time there's just no hiding, fighting
You make me restless

You're in my heart
The only light that shines there in the dark

'Cause I wanted to fly, so you gave me your wings
And time held its breath so I could see, yeah
And you set me free

When I was alone
You came around
When I was down
You pulled me through
And there's nothing that I wouldn't do for you

'Cause I wanted to fly, so you gave me your wings
And time held its breath so I could see, yeah
And you set me free.

***the lyrics basically explain everything i think harry/hermione feel towards the other. you guys should hear it.

[Dreamprincess288]

...and don't laugh at the flirting teacups! They're magical and have legs, so why can't they flirt?! :lol: No seriously though, it's part of the HMS Harmony symbolism. I can repost the symbolism and post-kiss analysis essays for you if you like.

I do think we may see a curveball, but i think it will be in the effect of Ron/Luna. Luna seems quite interested in him and this interest doesn't seem to bother Ron at all.

*fakes being serious* Oh yes, I completly believe in Harry and Hermione happening now because after the flirting teacups incident who would ever think otherwise?

*laughs at herself* :lol:

*goes back to normal* Okay, this is gonna sound stupid but what does HMS in the HMS Harmony symbolize? I mean I would get it if it said the H/Hr Harmony... but what does HMS mean? (totally random but it makes me think of the ups and downs in H/Hr's relationship, and how moods can change quickly... *coughpmscough*)

*gets all the laughs out of her system for now and is ready to return to normal posting* I agree with the Ron/Luna thing, she does seem to like him and I can definetly see that happening! Plus, it would be really interesting to read! I'd reply to your post now but it's 2:30am here so I think I'd better get to sleep and give you an actual post like a normal person tomorrow! ;)

[Sirius83]

Oh, right...you left before we named ourselves. The H/Hr ship here at COS Forums is known as the HMS Harmony and the R/Hr ship is the HMS Heron. If you're interested, the Ron/Luna is HMS Roony and Ron/Eloise is HMS Reloise, fine ship but it just tags along now, R/L is a much nicer ship than R/E!

HMS is His/Her Majesty's Ship, which is tacked onto ships from the UK. Harry Potter being from the UK, we thought it fitting to use HMS instead of SS.

EDIT: I'll be sure to bring up more symbolism for you. There's enough of it to really make you wonder. For instance...the Hippogriff is the greek symbol of romantic love...and wa spresent both when Harry and Hermione flew on it and when Hermione got Harry out of that roon during Christmas. Perdita has a nice bit on Charms and H/Hr, would you be able to repost it Perdy?

[Dreamprincess288]

Thanks so much for the explination! :) Just wondering though, is there one for Harry/Ginny as well?

[_BT_]

Mad-I Moody: I would call the whole Harry saving Ginny's life a beginning of a "deep relationship." That is quite a bond, after all. And we KNOW for a fact that Ginny once had feelings for Harry. I don't believe she just "got over it." I think she probably just supressed the feelings, thinking that she might never have a chance with famous Harry Potter. But she does help him out an awful lot in OotP. I think they have the potential for some serious chemistry -- but they haven't been really together enough to show it. But, as has been said and as will be repeated over and over and over again, this is an opinion, based on my interpretation of the books

just because harry saved her life doesn't meen they share some sort of special bond. one would think they should, but then again-- notice how after CoS harry/ginny talk to each other maybe once in the next 2 books. we do know ginny once had feelings. i think your speculation that she still does is reasonable. i do believe there is potential for chemistry... especially if jk continues the trend of developing her character. lol, on your opinion comment-- all my hr/h support comments are more or less interpretation as well, making me no more right or wrong as any hr/r peeps

Sirius83: I think this is true of both ships actually. They're a trio of best friends after all. I do believe JKR is setting something up for a second Ron fallout - which won't be permanent mind you, but as far as OOTP is concerned these are the best of friends. As with Ron and Hermione, Harry and Hermione are quite different to each other, they're just more mature about dealing with things. They are however still different, but looking in the same direction.

hmmm... excellent prediciton. i agree

Sirius83: I'd like to bring up two points where i believe we did get to see Harry's subconcious. There is a dream where Cho quite literally turns into Hermione, while Harry is realising how ridiculous the entire Cho affair is. I believe this is a sign of his romantic interest changing from Cho to Hermione, but told to us in a way that Harry won't be aware of it, while the clue is dropped for us the readers. The second part is where we are told that there is a part of Harry's subconcious that speaks in Hermione's voice. I think this is quite interesting and is another sign of showing where Harry's subconcious lies. What are your views on this?

another excellent point. interesting how everyone mentions how ron/hermione, harry/ginny, etc have these "subconcious" feelings for one another... but the only PROOF in the books of subconcious feelings lies in this scene right here. this is the only scene where we actually see subconcious feelings, where it's not interpretation. and what do you know-- it points towards harry/hermione. but then again i guess the dream is up to interpretation... so we're kinda back where we started :shrug:

haycheng; Regard R/Hr happen or not: Ever it indeed happens, it probably wont up to the expectation of R/Hr shipper. It is after all a book about Harry Potter. Nothing too interesting can come out of R/Hr, ever it happens.

didn't think about that... good point. if a r/hr thing does happen, it'd be side plot with little focus. at least with hr/h it'd be center stage and we'd get some action out of it to read.

sone: Harry at least thought of telling Hermione about the troll. Ron was too worried about getting chewed out by Percy and would of never considered it without Harry. Harry alone would have done it anyway. Harry was always more considerate of Hermione's abilities after they became friends. Without Harry, it would of never of happened between Ron and Hermione.

word :agree:

legoami: welcome

GilyAnn: That is YOUR interpretation and that is fine. You have the right too and I have no problem with that. But to me it's CLEAR that Ron likes Hermione and that Hermione likes Ron. Hermione had no reason to be so rude to Fleur and the post ball is a clear command to ME that she is encouraging Ron to invite her to the next ball. H/Hr shippers may see it differently but I see the attraction between R/Hr very corresponded by each other.

lol, cool cool. i'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :tu:

Daveydee: But it seems pretty pointless and unstimulating to have a debate where everybody is in agreement. In fact that's no debate at all. And, I think on this particular topic it's pretty near impossible to treat the issue in such an isolated context without looking at and examining the other potential ships.

right on :agree:

Dreamprincess288: As for Hermione's voice being in his subconcious, I've never viewed that as a romantic feeling. It always has reminded me of the way your mom's voice pops into your head when you know you're going to do something wrong. Hermione has always been the one to give Harry advice because she has more knowledge than Ron. And while both Harry and Ron don't always like to admit it they know she's right, and when I read that Hermione's voice is inside Harry's head I've always seen it almost as if he subconciously thinks "What would Hermione do in this situation? Did she ever tell me that (insert here) is dangerous?"

i'd like to reiterate sirius83's analysis here. yes, the whole giving advice factor-- could be a 'motherly' like reaction, but remember harry's mother figure is mrs. weasley. next, a girlfriends/wives advice comes in the very same fashion, and that's what we could be seeing here. next, i agree with sirius83's comment on the supposed 'mother' relationship between harry/hermione: i think that this relationship more resembles a girlfriend or just a good friend relationship instead. finally, the point is that this dream is cho shifting to hermione. while this might just be trivial, my interpretation is that this is not only foreshadowing but a clue hinting at an hr/h relationship AND possible feelings for hermione by harry.

[Hawk 92]

Oh, right...you left before we named ourselves. The H/Hr ship here at COS Forums is known as the HMS Harmony and the R/Hr ship is the HMS Heron. If you're interested, the Ron/Luna is HMS Roony and Ron/Eloise is HMS Reloise, fine ship but it just tags along now, R/L is a much nicer ship than R/E!

Sirius forgot SIGNS. The Society Into Ginny Neville Shipping. Although I haven't figured out a name for the ship that is owned by the Society. :D

Ah well back on Topic

Cheers!

[aurelius]

Like I said in another thread, this is not a shipper note, but rather just a thought regarding the Ron and Hermione situation...I've read GoF a couple of times now and I have tried to read between the lines of any possible romance between these two and I just don't see it happening...My thought is this...I think Ron sees Hermione as one of the "boys"...I mean, he has known her since their first year and they have pretty much spent alot of time together and he sees her as this constant thing in his life, someone that he can depend on, someone who is there when he or Harry need help (most of the time - answers)...he sees her as someone who is reliable - he's so used to having Hermione around and helping him out of sticky situations...in GoF he says.."Hermione, you're a girl..." - I think what he is trying to plainly say is that...I need a date to the ball and you're a girl and I need to take a girl...and I think Ron was feeling confident that she would say "yes" because their friends...But on Hermione's part, with her personality and always being wanting to be the best and for her to be socially insecure took this offensively. In her point of view - well, she was Ron's last resort...and I don't think that goes down well with any girl, knowing that your friend practically asked all the girls out and then in the end had no choice but to ask you out...I think this is why Ron and Hermione had that blow out after the Yule Ball, because Ron thought that he could always count on Hermione when he needed her and Hermione didn't want to be a "last resort" for him or anyone...Ron sees Hermione as his BEST FRIEND, someone he can trust and always rely on, and in this case, she wasn't there for him, which suggests why he's so upset...

As for Hermione being upset, with Fleur kissing Ron, I think the whole social insecurity plays a part...Hermione has always been known for her brains rather than her looks...so I think Hermione is also insecure in that area...she's not confident in that area cause she's too busy hiding behind her books, but Hermione is also capable of being pretty - as indicated in GoF: Yule Ball...but it is not something that she often does (spending time doing her hair...looking pretty), hence that is why she is intimidated by pretty girls, like Fleur... Hermione finds all the answers that she needs in her books but being pretty and popular is something that she cannot find a solution to in her books...Hermione also states that there is more to a girl than looks...

Harry and Cho: I don't think anything will happen between these two...For one, In OOTP - it is obvious that Cho is jealous of Harry's relationship with Hermione...Two, yes, Harry thinks Cho is pretty but I think Cho was just sad and lonely and needed someone to talk to regarding the death of Cedric and Harry was the only one that witnessed his death, so that was their connection and only connection, Cho needed to find comfort, and as I said, Harry was the only witness...

Harry and Hermione friendship/relationship: I think there is more here than meets the eye...I think since the first year, Hermione has always had a soft spot for Harry...hence the kiss that Hermione planted on Harry at the end of GoF - which is something that she has never done before...i think here Hermione was showing a bit of her affection for Harry...but for Harry, I think he has too much on his plate at the moment to actually dwell on the kiss that Hermione gave him...I mean, his witnessed Cedric's death and watched Voldemort rise again...I think in Book 6, there will be hints that the Cho blinders will actually come off and he will slowly but surely realize that he has feelings for Hermione...

[FlyingPhoenix]

I'm really thankfully that we are now back on our route. First people please don't doublepost its against the rule ana_banana, wahsup86 and fairydust.

Now after OotP I think some points in GoF look now quiet different for once its the Yule Ball. I do now look what Harry dos and what Hermione say rather than to look at Rons comments. But if you recorgnise after GoF Ron never argue like that in OotP and that is kinda strange.

Anyway to my point its something I want make more clear now maybe I explain this whole scene like Mike did it with the PK because there are interest describtion hoe Ron sounds or how Hermione looks. I mean if we this scene use like that than we can do this with this one, too. But like I said it will do it in a H/Hr way because I think its strongly H/Hr and not R/Hr. Its not that much how Ron react because he react absolute in the line of R/Hr but Hermione react more in the line H/Hr what I will show here.

Hermione came over and sat down in Parvati`s empty chair. She was a bit pink in the face from danicing.
"Hi," said Harry. Ron didn't say anything.
"It's hot, isn't it?" said Hermione, fanning herself with her hand. "Viktor's just gone to get some drinks."

This interest especially that JKR did chose Parvati who got a dance and not Padma. To this image now. Harry dos welcome her though in all books if they are at hogwarts I never read he said Hi to her. Its interest that he wasn't able to say "Hi" as she did so before the dance but now he is it. To Hermione, just imagine this image how she sit at Harrys side and fanning herself with her hand its a picture of nervousness it shows that she is flattered, exitement. You even see it how she introduce herself she speak about the temperatur and ask if its really hot. This on reminds lightly how she asked Harry in the PK scene in OotP "You had to be nice to her, hadn't you!" something like that. There you see emotions in this questioning. Its not written how Harry say this "Hi" but this image let guess it was as if it wasn't the Hermione from the libary much more that pretty girl which turned just at this moment up.

Ron gave her a withering look.

This interest way to look at someone I did look this up and find different concepts for it:
disease, criticizing, dirtiness, death,destruction, inferiority, criticizing.

I don't show the synonyms I show now the Antonsyms:
developing, flourishing, growing, rejuvenating, reviving, thriving;
growth, vigor; accepting, approving, complimentary, praising

If you ask me this shows every negate feeling of a crush. Anyway At this Antonsyms you see how Rons look isn't like that its a cruel look, nasty. So keep in mind this kind of look than Hermiones nervousness than you might recorgnisse how wrong or displaced Rons look might be.

"Viktor?" he said. "Hasn't he asked you to call him Vicky yet?"
Hermione looked at him in surprise.
Its strange that Ron comes to that. I mean how should she call Krum? Mr. Krum? No, at this moment Ron runs complete wrong. Thats where it started this brawl. So if Ron later after the Ball calls Krum, Vicky he remember Hermione everytime at this moment and what he did tell her after he called Krum, Vicky. Thats why I say if Ron were sorry he didn't say this name like that. This include till the very day in OotP Ron isn't sorry for his behaviour and still think he had all this right to act like that. This implied that Ron didn't change in this area. He never saw his fault it was and is Hermiones fault.
And its nice to know that Hermione wasn't looking at Ron as she sit down on Harrys side.

"What's up with you?" she said.
"If you don't know," said Ron scathingly "I'm not going to tell you."
Hermione stared at him, then at Harry, who shrugged. "Ron, what -?"

For "scathing" I use again Antonsymos and concepts to that I add synonyms because its very interesting what that says.

Concepts: criticizing, unkindness, assertion (negative), taste (bad)
Synonyms: belittling, biting, brutal, burning, caustic, critical, cruel, cutting, harsh, mordacious, mordant, salty, sarcastic, scorching, scornful, searing, severe, sulphorous, trenchant, withering

Antonsyms: complimentary, flattering, honey-tongued, just, kind, respectful, sweet

This say Rons comment was rather mean, sarcastic. In a way you can smell it from miles. But the part which I think is interest is how Hermione looks from Ron to Harry and he is shrugging. This shows both are clueless. If you take OotP than I do think its an interest picture. Both are clueless but Ron isn't it. Now I come to my own expierince how I remember if a trio sit like that together and the girl had a date which she enjoy is rather nervouss, sit down and dos this with her hands and looks more to Harry than to Ron because if she did watch Ron she get it earlier something is wrong. And Ron react like that but the other on her side act like herself clueless this looks for me not like a scene for R/Hr its H/Hr. You need to keep in mind that Padma is still sitting there by Ron side. If I did saw that in RL I rather think its this quiet guy and not the loud one. But thats only me and my expierince.

"He's from Durmstrang!" spat Ron. "He's competing against Harry! Against Hogwarts! You - you're -" Ron was obviously casting around for words strong enough to describe Hermione's crime, " fraternising with the enemy, thats what you're doing!"
Hermione's mouth fell open.

Ron use at first Harry to describe her crime. IMO its important that Ron get her only as he mentioned Harry.

Spat
Concept: fighting, arguement, disagreement.

Fraternization
Concept: friendship, alliance

"Yeah, well- that's his story," said Ron nastily."And what's that supposed to mean?"
"Obvious, isn't it? He's Karkaroffs student, isn't he? He knows who you hang around with...hes just trying to get closer to Harry - get inside information on him - or get near enough to jinx him-"
Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her. When she spoke, her voice quivered "For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about Harry, not one-"

Now Ron tells Hermione that Krum wanted never go out with her. He is only her date because of Harry and not because she is a girl, a pretty girl and not because she is someone nice.
This jinx part is again interest because this remind on the Firebolt. Hermione did in the 3th year everything that nobody could or would come near enough to Harry so they could jinx him. And here Ron tells her she dos exactly that and bring Harry into danger. That explain why Hermione looks like slapped and her voice is shaking. Its because of what Ron says and not because of Ron. Thats interest.
Entry: nasty
Function: adjective
Definition: mean
Synonyms: abusive, annoying, bad-tempered, beastly, *****y, critical, cruel, despicable, disagreeable, distasteful, evil, fierce, hateful, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, ornery, owly, ruthless, sarcastic, sordid, spiteful, squalid, unkind, unpleasant, vicious, vile, wicked
Concept: unkindness

Entry: quiver
Function: verb
Definition: shake
Synonyms: agitate, beat, convulse, dither, jitter, oscillate, palpitate, pulsate, pulse, quake, quaver, shiver, shudder, thrill, throb, tremble, tremor, twitter, vibrate
Concept: motion (fast)

Ron changed tack at the speed of light. "Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I suppose you've been putting your heads together during those cosy little library sessions-"
"I'd never help him work out that egg!" said Hermione, looking outraged. "Never. How could you say something like that - I want Harry to win the Tournament. Harry knows that, don't you, Harry?"
This reaction is which I meaned if I said H/Hr. Because its how Hermione react about Ron comment that she would help Krum. She looked outraged and did say "Never" two times as if she need to show how impossible it is that she ever help someone else than Harry. That she would ever use her knowledge to help someone other than Harry. She even say Harry knows it and than she need to ask him to be sure that he believes her. Its very important in this brawl R/HR that Hermione react the most and intensive as Ron questioning Hermiones loyality to Harry. She don't act like that because off Ron she do it because off that what he say about Her priorities of Harrys importance in her live.

"You've got a funny way of showing it," sneered Ron.
"This whole Tournament's supposed to be about to getting to know foreign wizards and making friends with them!" said Hermione shrilly.
"No, it isn't!" shouted Ron. "Its about winning!"
People were starting to stare at them.
"Ron," said Harry quietly, "I haven't got a problem with Hermione coming with Krum -"
But Ron ignored Harry too.
"Why don't you go and find Vicky, he'll wondering where you are," said Ron.
"Don't call him Vicky!" Hermione jumped to her feet....
Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger and satisfaction on his face

There you can see where R/Hr are crashing Hermione thinks the tournament is about making friends by Ron is it winning. This reminds me what Ron did see in the mirror. All what he saw was about winning.
Harry come into play after Ron started to shout and People were looking at them.
A little not maybe you did recorgnise it everytime there are bright describtion how someone looks or speak is this an emotional scene that say The PK scene is one and the Sirius/Voldemort arguement between H/Hr is one. By "Sirius" its IMO the most dynamic in all books there.
About this Yule Brawl this is for me an example how it looks still OotP between this three. There you see R--->Hr and Hr--->H. Hermione react the most as Ron questioning her loyality for Harry. She said this "Never!" What she already said in PoA as Harry asked if she were even by the game. She said she would "never!" miss a game with him. In other words Hermione would never act against Harry this one can even implied that she would never fall for Ron. Because this is against Harry.

Entry: sneer
Function: verb
Definition: mock
Synonyms: affront, belittle, brickbat, burlesque, caricature, condemn, crack, curl lip, decry, deride, detract, dig, dirty dig, disdain, disparage, dump, fleer, flout, gibe, gird, grin, insult, jeer, jest, lampoon, laugh at, leer, mock, put down, quip at, rally, rank out, ridicule, satirize, scoff, scorn, slam, slight, smile, sneeze at, sniff at, s******, swipe, taunt, travesty, twit, underrate
Concept: assertion (negative)

Entry: shrill
Function: adjective
Definition: high-pitched
Synonyms: acute, argute, blaring, blatant, cacophonous, clanging, clangorous, deafening, discordant, ear-piercing, ear-splitting, harsh, high, metallic, noisy, penetrating, piercing, piping, raucous, screeching, sharp, strident, thin, treble
Concept: sound (loud)

[GilyAnn]

Thanks so much for the explination! :) Just wondering though, is there one for Harry/Ginny as well?

::Gasp in horror!:: :wow: :scared: Dreamprincess288 that's still the ship who must not be name. Off course I'm still shipping it!

Gily Ann

[Augurey]

Hello, I hope that everyones feeling fine today.
Looking outside i can see that England is going to be another hot and sweltering day :wow: Oh well best not to complain about it, its simply lovely.

Anyway on to the 'Love' issue
I have to say, great posts guys, half of the things that are posted i didn't notice in the books at all, and that goes to the R/Hr'ers too, there is certainly a lot of evedence to prove that these two have feelings for each other. That said however i don't think there is really enough (IMO) to really say for sure who likes who, in fact im actually prepared to not accept that Ron actually likes Hermione until the day that it comes out of his mouth e.g 'Hermione i think i love you' that sort of thing. So im going to agree with the person, whose post is above mine, that Ron sees Hermione as just 'one of the guys'.
Being a H/Hr shipper there is obviosuly a lot that i disagree with when it comes to R/Hr, as we seem to be seeing all these quotes in different ways, the best i can offer you is my opinon on the matter.
The reason why i have never liked R/Hr together as a couple, is that i have yet to see what they have in common with each other, they're both lovely people, but they show interests in different things, e.g Ron: Quidditch and Chess and Hermione: Books and learning etc. If these two do get into a relationship, it wouldn't last long, eventually they would run out of things to talk about and it would either end abrutly in an argument or it would merely just sizzle out into nothing.
Now i can just picture the lot of you rumaging through your books looking for quotes to totaly contridict what im saying, and thats fine, thats what debating is all about, but im only giving my opinon on this, and as i said before we look at quotes and sentances differently, espessally if we're on different ships, i will however be more than happy to listen to this evedence to prove me wrong, so please if you have any...
H/Hr, Now im not going to go too much into this, because i support this ship not because there is evedence to support it, but because i like it the most, i feel it would be the perfect way to end the series to have these to 'in love' with each other, but then im a sucker for romantic endings and will probably just burst into tears :scared: (don't ask). Anyway iv given my view on things and im sure theres plenty there for a R/Hr'er to shred into peices. Well... Bring it on.

[sone]

Well done FP. That is the most original post about the argument at the Yule Ball that I have ever read in three years and quite an interesting view as well. Hmmmm......I better pull out Goblet of Fire again. You have definitely caught on to something that I have really overlooked.

[Turambar]

GilyAnn: sorry it's taken me so long to reply, things are a bit hectic, I'll try and keep it brief:


1)GA:
Even though H/Hr are friends and R/Hr are also. The difference in between the friendship is very different. R/Hr like each other. Hermione scolds over Fleur's attentions over Ron. She acts acidly when he remembers she is a girl. She is furious when his troll remark. All of them sings of (TO ME) that she likes Ron and Ron likes her back. They are non-platonic.
On the contrary H/Hr (TO ME) it's very, very platonic. They don't show any sings not even hints of it of being atracted to each other. Hermione is not bother at all by the fact that Harry likes Cho and wasn't even bother that he never though once about her in when the Yule ball aproach. Hermione simply doesn't show signs to me of liking Harry in any way and Harry doesn't show signs back.
The difference between the two is that Ron and Hermione show a LOT of signs of being more than friends, while Harry and Hermione show no absolutly sign of like each other.
xxxxxxx
T:
To me H/Hr exhibit far too much intensity, interest and regard for each other to be now and forever platonic. The scene when they are debating what to do about Sirius is lit through with electricity. But there are other scenes such as Hermione's hug for Harry, where she doesn't want to let go; her trembling relief when she hears he won't be expelled; Harry's lightheadedness when he finds out she's okay in the DOM that demonstrate that intensity and depth of feeling. They both care a lot for Ron but I feel Hermione lacks respect for Ron and in contrast admires Harry.


2)GA:
Sorry but I don't believe so. It can grow from friendship but they are hundreds of ways to find love also. Apparently JKR thinks that way also. Look on how James and Lily were. Lily loath James, she really dislike him for his arrogance but once he stopped hexing people and being a person again. She went out with him. So while love can grow from friendship it isn't the only way that you can find love.
xxxxx
T:
Some people are obviously more readily likeable than others but a warmth towards and liking for a person is a basic requisite of love. That's the start. Remember also that this is not real life but a book series and the author has to SHOW why one character prefers another character over a third character. Relationships, if written well, have to be constructed from a foundadtion. JKR said herself that she laid clues to future events so that people wouldn't feel cheated when those events occurred. Also with Lily and James we only saw one scene with them at age 15 and they didn't get together until the seventh year. We have no idea what their relationship was like in the intervening time. Perhaps they became friends in the sixth year and a 'couple' in the seventh. We don't know.


3)GA:
Yes but so far TO ME he hasn't done so in the case of H/Hr. He has done so with R/Hr. We know that Ron is in love with Hermione but he doesn't know the depth of his feelings yet. He finally may have gotten the hint that he likes her but the depth of his feelings are yet to be discoverd by him. I won't go into Harry because that's a theme we agree to disagree many threads back.
xxxxxxxx
T:
I'm yet to be convinced of the depth of Ron's feelings. To me at the most he has a crush on Hermione, but I think a fair bit of it is possessiveness. His reaction to Ginny going out with Michael and then Dean suggest it. I wonder why if he were in "love" why he doesn't make more effort to impress her, do things for her, be obviously keen to spend time alone with her, at least suggest his interest to her. If he is so unaware of his feelings why do a number of shippers interpret the look he gives Harry on the train home as a sign he'd like Harry to be with Ginny so that he's out of the way? That suggests a certain awareness on Ron's part. Why buy Hermione a 'romantic' present such as perfume if he is so unaware of his feelings?


4)GA:
This is simply because Cho was a crush. What Harry felt for Cho wasn't real. She was an image on his head once she failed at it the image is gone. Therefore everything he wasn't going to prefer Cho over Ron or Hermione. She failed his image and he began to loose interest. Every encounter it was something else that he set his crush into a fall. By Valantines day he was calling her a human hosepipe. He simply grew tired of her.
xxxxxx
T:
To the reader Cho was just a crush but to Harry she was the girl he'd been keen on since POA. The point is the relationship failed and Cho failed to get anywhere near to the level of feeling Harry has for Hermione, or anywhere near the importance she has in his life. I've said it lots of times: any outside girl has to take the place of Hermione as the girl who is the most special to Harry. She is afterall one of his two best friends and his best female friend.


5)GA:
We are probably going to agree to disagree here. But GInny all ready overcame that barrier. Ginny cheer up Harry on a moment that he needed. Harry lost on this book the remark about Ginny Weasley. Ginny became simply Ginny. She became someone that had a personality, had feelings, got angry, was good at hexing, was a good listener. Ginny became real to Harry. Before she was Ginny Weasley now she is simply Ginny.
xxxxxxx
T:
No I think Harry and Ginny got to know each other better and become friends in OOTP which is an advance. But that's a long way away from being his great intended. The barrier is still there in my view.


6)GA:
Easier than most people think. I have no doubt in JKR wonderfull writting abilities that she can (and will) in a way that is fairly convincing. If you look at it in this book Ginny and Harry spend some time toguether alone and with Ron also.
xxxxxxx
T:
But the basic structure of the novels remains, two more years of Hogwarts to go. That most likely means small scattered scenes with each other within groups of people rather than the hours of class and homework time Harry will spend with Ron and Hermione. Hermione's basic function in the books is as the female lead character. She's been an essential part of all the books. Why would her character suddenly be downgraded and given less stage time just as the series reaches its climax? Hermione became even more important and prominent in OOTP than ever before. This I feel is the basic problem with the H/G scenario. In OOTP Harry and Hermione are the two key student characters - they are jointly responsible for leading the fight against the ministry, they are leaders of the students. Ginny is a supporting player. But making Ginny Harry's romantic interest - as in love, not a crush - automatically would elevate her character to being the most significant female character. It would have to, she'd be the hero's great love. But then how can she be the female lead if there already is one? It would be almost like suddenly elevating Neville to be the hero after five books of Harry's story. Yet an H/Hr pairing would not create this structural problem, it would just confirm the pattern that is already there.


7)GA:
Why should she stopped being friends with Hermione when they have a great frienship going! I love Hermione and Ginny's friendship! Again there are a lot of plot lines that jkr could use to get Harry and Ginny toguether. Ginny plays Quidditch, It's on the DA, It's on Gryffindoor. There is also the possible ones like grieving over Sirius, the rumor that Ginny may become or be animagus, Ginny being a seer. There are a lot of other plot lines that can be use for that. Off course I'm not sugesting that Ginny is going to be all that. But they are hundred posibilities on how they can be more toguether.
xxxxxxx
T:
But how realistic is it that
a) Harry, with the second war about to start, would stop focusing on and relying on Hermione enough to suddenly fall in love with Ginny
b) that Hermione, with her obsessive need to keep Harry safe, would allow anyone else to look after, guide and tend to her precious friend. This is a real key point. Putting aside debate on whether her concern is from friendship or a mix of friendship and romantic feelings, the fact is Hermione realises Harry needs her and she's prepared to go to great lengths for him: canning a holiday with her parents to help him, risking expulsion to help him get into Umbridge's office when she's dead against it, risking expulsion again by organising the DA classes, telling him things he doesn't want to hear for his own good when no one else will, risking injury and death for him in the DOM. She knows she's the only one of his friends strong enough to tell him unpopular things, the only one with the ideas, advice, knowledge and skills to be a real asset to him, the person who knows him best. There's no way she's going to take a backward step and allow someone else to get closer to Harry than she is, to give advice to Harry and influence him when it could mean Harry dies.
c) that Ginny would be strong enough to cope with H/Hr's relationship once she became the girlfriend. Because the expectations of being a friend and being a girlfriend are different. Because being the girlfriend she would expect to be number one to Harry, expect him to pay her attention and expect him to spend time with her. And just imagine the conflicts if the trend of Ginny going along with Harry's recklessness and Hermione fighting it continued. In OOTP the debates were between Harry and Hermione while Ron and Ginny had supporting roles. But that dynamic would change if Ginny became Harry's girlfriend.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Exellent post Turambar :clap:

You really did hit the nail why H/G and R/Hr are for me nearly impossible

that Hermione, with her obsessive need to keep Harry safe, would allow anyone else to look after, guide and tend to her precious friend. This is a real key point. Putting aside debate on whether her concern is from friendship or a mix of friendship and romantic feelings, the fact is Hermione realises Harry needs her and she's prepared to go to great lengths for him: canning a holiday with her parents to help him, risking expulsion to help him get into Umbridge's office when she's dead against it, risking expulsion again by organising the DA classes, telling him things he doesn't want to hear for his own good when no one else will, risking injury and death for him in the DOM. She knows she's the only one of his friends strong enough to tell him unpopular things, the only one with the ideas, advice, knowledge and skills to be a real asset to him, the person who knows him best. There's no way she's going to take a backward step and allow someone else to get closer to Harry than she is, to give advice to Harry and influence him when it could mean Harry dies.

The main problem by H/C was that Harry never took Cho over Hermione. Thats the reason why Cho did act how she act by this date.
Its sound unimportant or not as that bad but it is bad. Its there first date and if Hermione were just a friend Harry didn't meet her on this day. Because this shows for Cho, who is by the way not that stupid, that she isn't that important how Hermione is it. As nearly girlfriend or as crush or just as girl which is fancyed by Harry should Cho stay on top especially on this day. But he never did it and Cho did get that.
By Hermione is it just the same she never took Krum over Harry look at my post. Always is it Harry who comes first and than anybody else. Even her parents come after Harry.
Thats the problem for both ships its mainly Hermione who don't fit by this scenario of OBHWF. She is the reason why I don't buy it. To become R/Hr need JKR change Hermiones doing for Harry and put Ron over Harry in Hermione priorities. That won't happen not where the war starts. By H/G is it just the same Harry need to take Ginny over Hermione but this won't happen either. If I may say it Hermione is the iceberg of both ships.

[Mad-I Moody]

This was posted on the previous page by Sirius83 -- I know, I'm always about a page late, but I can't keep up with this thread! I only have a computer at work!

EDIT: I'll be sure to bring up more symbolism for you. There's enough of it to really make you wonder. For instance...the Hippogriff is the greek symbol of romantic love...and wa spresent both when Harry and Hermione flew on it and when Hermione got Harry out of that roon during Christmas.

yeah, but doesn't Hermione say something like "Oh no. I don't like this. I don't like this at all." (in reference to riding on the hippogriff)? Yes, taken literally, she's merely saying that she doesn't like flying -- but, taken literally, the hippogriff doesn't symbolize romantic love, either. So, looking at this situation symbolically, taking the hippogriff as the symbol of love, we must read Hermione's dialogue symbolically, and look at the subtextual meaning of "I don't like this at all." ;)

[Daveydee]

Actually Auror, I think we have all agreed to use canonical evidence only, and not quotes from interviews. And all the things JKR has said in interviews can be viewed many ways. Just like canon can be interpreted many ways. She is being very cryptic, and tricksy with us.
Have we? I don't recall agreeing to anything. I'll use whatever I like as long as it remains relevant and within the forum rules.


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Sirius83: I'd like to bring up two points where i believe we did get to see Harry's subconcious. There is a dream where Cho quite literally turns into Hermione, while Harry is realising how ridiculous the entire Cho affair is. I believe this is a sign of his romantic interest changing from Cho to Hermione, but told to us in a way that Harry won't be aware of it, while the clue is dropped for us the readers. The second part is where we are told that there is a part of Harry's subconcious that speaks in Hermione's voice. I think this is quite interesting and is another sign of showing where Harry's subconcious lies. What are your views on this?
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another excellent point. interesting how everyone mentions how ron/hermione, harry/ginny, etc have these "subconcious" feelings for one another... but the only PROOF in the books of subconcious feelings lies in this scene right here. this is the only scene where we actually see subconcious feelings, where it's not interpretation.
PROOF??? It's proof of nothing and the meaning of which is very much open to a whole variety of symbolic interpretations.

[Auror77]

I'm sorry about that Noddwd, your're definetey right about her being trickery with us.

[FlyingPhoenix]

yeah, but doesn't Hermione say something like "Oh no. I don't like this. I don't like this at all." (in reference to riding on the hippogriff)? Yes, taken literally, she's merely saying that she doesn't like flying -- but, taken literally, the hippogriff doesn't symbolize romantic love, either. So, looking at this situation symbolically, taking the hippogriff as the symbol of love, we must read Hermione's dialogue symbolically, and look at the subtextual meaning of "I don't like this at all."

You can interpret it that way no doubt than you ignore Hermiones character and If I take this with in my interpretation than its looks more positive as negative.
We did say Hermione is logical person who run everytime she has anydoubts to the Library or to a teacher. But flying is unlogical like we did see in PS/SS she did look in her book and learned everything by heart but still she wasn't that talented like Harry who for sure never read a sentence about it. Now she sit on a creature, where Harry himself said its not that comfortable like on a broom and you has the fear to fall down if it move the wings, behind Harry and mutter she don't like it but hold at the same time tighter at Harry.
Just turn this image and let say its not flying its love. Love is too unlogical if Hermione falls in love she can't run into the Library and look it up. Her doubts won't vanish that say she don't like it to be in doubt so she hold tighter on Harry in that case.
If we say general Flying is in HP that image of love than you get an interest view. Quiditch is Harrys favouriet sport and he love it to fly. He has the natur talent of a flyer, keep in mind love runs in Harrys veins so he is a naturel guy for love. If he fly he feels free and better than ever in his whole life and again if you take this flying for love than you get what is it with this serie. Harry get from Hermione gifts in connection to Quiditch which is again after my theory connected to love. Hermione never missed a game of Harry and she said she would never miss it. In this view is this again highly interest. Just look at PoA as Harry saw his crush Cho at Quiditch and how important Quiditch is against the Dementors in this book.
Now in OotP Harry can't fly anylonger ergo Harry is in this book rather bad tempered but if you recorgnise in GoF Harry could only use his firebolt once so again this show how dark this two books are if you say Quiditch is an image off love.
Now to Ron. He isn't a nature talent he have to fight and to work for it and he is rather clumsy. Suddenly Hermione isn't anymore interest in Quiditch/love as Ron is in the team. She don't even see how Ron get the cup if I use this image than is that surely a bad one for R/Hr and H/G because Harry didn't see either how Ginny caught the snitch. But Neville and Luna saw it.
Its even interest that Harry got a firebolt from Sirius and from Hermione this quiditch kit. So if I go again and say image love than Harry got from Sirius kind of love and from Hermione the ability to take care of it.

After OotP I'm not sure if Harry will come back into the team because now is it time that this love comes to visiblity against the dark side of this books

[Grace Granger]

Thanks so much for the explination! :) Just wondering though, is there one for Harry/Ginny as well?

The Titanic! :rotfl:

*sees Heronians and Crushers gasp in disgust*

I'm just playing y'all don't take it personal!

[Mad Eye Mike]

FlyingPhoenix - A brilliant textual analysis of the Yula Ball scene. :clap:

Turambar - Nice job. I especially love this part because it's so true:

But making Ginny Harry's romantic interest - as in love, not a crush - automatically would elevate her character to being the most significant female character. It would have to, she'd be the hero's great love. But then how can she be the female lead if there already is one? It would be almost like suddenly elevating Neville to be the hero after five books of Harry's story. Yet an H/Hr pairing would not create this structural problem, it would just confirm the pattern that is already there.



Now, in regards to the Hippogriff: I've seen many r/hr shippers say it does not represent love but rather 'impossible love'. Simply for the sake of this argument, let's just say that's true. Now H/Hr are on a symbol of 'impossible love' and Hermione says "I don't like this". Taken subtextually, Hermione didn't like the idea of her and Harry's love being impossible. In fact, she wants it to happen. Thanks. ;)


:rotfl: @ Grace & FlyingPhoenix (you two know why).

[Daveydee]

Now, in regards to the Hippogriff: I've seen many r/hr shippers say it does not represent love but rather 'impossible love'. Simply for the sake of this argument, let's just say that's true. Now H/Hr are on a symbol of 'impossible love' and Hermione says "I don't like this". Taken subtextually, Hermione didn't like the idea of her and Harry's love being impossible. In fact, she wants it to happen. Thanks. ;)
:lol: LOL. Only you could put that slant on it.

[EricaM]

yeah, but doesn't Hermione say something like "Oh no. I don't like this. I don't like this at all." (in reference to riding on the hippogriff)? Yes, taken literally, she's merely saying that she doesn't like flying -- but, taken literally, the hippogriff doesn't symbolize romantic love, either. So, looking at this situation symbolically, taking the hippogriff as the symbol of love, we must read Hermione's dialogue symbolically, and look at the subtextual meaning of "I don't like this at all." ;)


We have, too, Ron's encounter with the Brains (Hermione?) in the DoM.

The moment they made contact with his skin, the tentacles began wrapping themselves around Ron's arms like ropes.

'Harry, look what's happen - No - no - I don't like it - no, stop -stop-'

Back to the rune thing and slightly OT.

Eiwaz: Defense rune, also a rune for Protection. The word itself means Yew (as in the type of tree providing Voldies wand wood). It could pass for a 'ligtening' bolt (though there is another rune that, perhaps, lookes more like it - sowelo). What if Lily involked this rune of protection by drawing it on Harry's forehead with ample amounts of that force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature, sometime before Voldie kills her. And what if when Voldie attempts to kill Harry the power/energy of the curse was 'absorbed' by the rune mark and then shot back out at him?

I'm thinking that runes play a significant role in the upcoming plot and that it's also significant that it is associated with Hermione; her seemingly 'throw away line' about flubbing the definitions of Eiwaz and Ehwaz on her Ancient Runes Owl, Harry overtly recognising Hermione's trust and solidarity (associated with Ehwaz), they way the work together to help each other out throughout all of OotP (another aspect of Ehwaz - ideal partnership/ideal marriage).


Erica

P.S. what are those markings on the back cover of OotP - Canadian edition? Some of them look like the rune symbols, but not all - any ideas?

Regarding MEM's siggy pic

Brings to mind a Spider Robinson story I read eon's ago 'God is an Iron'
;) (yes, I'm that old)

[Mad-I Moody]

LOL at everyone's responses to the hippogriff/symbolism thing. :lol:

So, I'm gathering that, if we are to read these two encounters (H/Hr on Buckbeak, R in the brains/Hr room) symbolically, Hermione doesn't like riding on the wings of love with Harry, and Ron doesn't like being trapped by Hermione's...um....tentacles? So, where does that leave us??? :rotfl:
Unless, of course, we can take MEMs mind-boggling rebuttal seriously, in which case Hermione's dislike of flying on Buckbeak has to do with her not liking the prospect of her and Harry's love being impossible. That, however, still leaves us interpreting Harry and Hermione's love as impossible, whether Hermione likes it or not.

Is there a smiley that represents one's brains rattling about in one's head? ;) I could really use it right now.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Mad-I Moody - It's no more mind-boggling than your subtextual "I don't like this..." rebuttle to Sirius83's post. I'm only working with what's been presented and argued in the past by some r/hr shippers. However if you want to go back to the literal interpretation of that scene I'm okay with that as well:

H/Hr ride a Hippogriff = H/Hr ride a symbol of love.

Yeah, that works for me. :agree:

[Augurey]

Wow...yes great posts people, I perticuly liked Flying Phoenix's definition on the Yule ball (or brawl, as its being called) also Turambars post was most enlightening, and i have to say i agree with everything you say, so take some of these :clap: :clap: :clap:

Also i finely got a signiture, i would really have liked to have a picture of Harry and Hermione, but i couldn't find one small enough, does anyone know by the way have you shrink images?

Thanks and once again, well done to you all for standing up for what you believe in. I really love reading eveyones posts, so keep it up.

Oh and H/Hr all the way :clap:

[Mad-I Moody]

MEM-
I apologise if I offended...I was joking around, and I didn't mean "mind-boggling" to be insulting at all. It's hard to tell tone from a typed message, so I don't even know if you were offended or insulted...but this is just in case. :)

Yes, I meant my first response to Sirius83 to be a bit - er - tongue in cheek, I suppose. I take the scene itself quite literally, meaning that I think Harry and Hermione are riding a hippogriff, and Hermione doesn't like it. But symbolism is fun to play around with, so if
H/Hr ride a hippogriff=H/Hr ride a symbol of love,
then
Hr doesn't like riding the symbol of love.

We could just go round and round like that for ages. *giggles*
But I wasn't ever meaning to be rude or anything. I was just having a little fun. ;)

[GilyAnn]

To me H/Hr exhibit far too much intensity, interest and regard for each other to be now and forever platonic. The scene when they are debating what to do about Sirius is lit through with electricity. But there are other scenes such as Hermione's hug for Harry, where she doesn't want to let go; her trembling relief when she hears he won't be expelled; Harry's lightheadedness when he finds out she's okay in the DOM that demonstrate that intensity and depth of feeling. They both care a lot for Ron but I feel Hermione lacks respect for Ron and in contrast admires Harry.

I clearly see all of those instances as friendship exchanges. Harry also felt relief that Ginny was alive in the chamber and I don't see how does this expresses Love for her. The scene where they fight about Sirius is one of scenes were clearly says to me how different Harry and Hermione are in some terms. Harry is so mad that hits the point of wanting to shake her. It didn't spark electricity it spark a dangerous point of rage and annoyance towards Hermione. Plus Hermione is a very anxious person. It's the way her personality is. (NOT THAT IT'S WRONG) She is anxious over Neville when MIM display the cruciatus curse. She is anxious in the DoM. Part of Hermione's personality is being anxious. I agree Hermione needs to appreciate Ron better but I do believe that is what is about to come.(Patience! Like I always said) Hermione and Ron were presented as a couple with problems. Problems that mainly come from being immature and the need to grow up.

Some people are obviously more readily likeable than others but a warmth towards and liking for a person is a basic requisite of love. That's the start. Remember also that this is not real life but a book series and the author has to SHOW why one character prefers another character over a third character. Relationships, if written well, have to be constructed from a foundadtion. JKR said herself that she laid clues to future events so that people wouldn't feel cheated when those events occurred. Also with Lily and James we only saw one scene with them at age 15 and they didn't get together until the seventh year. We have no idea what their relationship was like in the intervening time. Perhaps they became friends in the sixth year and a 'couple' in the seventh. We don't know.

Sirius said that she went out with him:

"Once James head deflated a bit," said Sirius.
"And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it," said Lupin.
>>snip<<
"She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,"

So I don't think that the possibility of a serious friendship between this two was that deep. I'm very aware that this is literature but becasue it's literature the author can do whatever she likes with the relationship. I mean take Emma for example. This people were worst than Hermione and Ron. I read that novel and I didn't like it much. I find that it's okay for Hermione and Ron to bicker because they are teenagers but the fact is that Emma and Mr. knitnighly were adults. Jet the author manage to pull it off and make it happend. In real life probably Ron and Harry would have never became friends with Hermione. In literature they are all best friends. So many things that in real life wouldn't work in literature are possible.

I do agree that JKR lay out clues so people wouldn't feel cheated but I don't feel that she did in the H/Hr side. Sorry! :whistle:

I'm yet to be convinced of the depth of Ron's feelings. To me at the most he has a crush on Hermione, but I think a fair bit of it is possessiveness. His reaction to Ginny going out with Michael and then Dean suggest it. I wonder why if he were in "love" why he doesn't make more effort to impress her, do things for her, be obviously keen to spend time alone with her, at least suggest his interest to her. If he is so unaware of his feelings why do a number of shippers interpret the look he gives Harry on the train home as a sign he'd like Harry to be with Ginny so that he's out of the way? That suggests a certain awareness on Ron's part. Why buy Hermione a 'romantic' present such as perfume if he is so unaware of his feelings?

Look at Ron's reaction to the kiss of Fleur and to the kiss Hermione gave him. There is a big difference. With Fleur he blushed he became and idiot, but he never ponder about it again. With the kiss Hermione gave him he became distant, floaty, and he ponder to the point that he touch the side where Hermione kissed him. In a way Hermione's kiss simply took him to a diffent dimension to the point that he was too distracted to realize what was going on around him. The perfume came after the kiss on the cheek. It's Hermione's kiss what makes Ron wake up and realize that he may like, like Hermione. But he has yet to discover the depth of his feelings. Off course like the start up of a relationship he is a bit wavy on the subject.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to offend anyone. But Ron has been hinting at Harry and Ginny long before OoP. He did twice I think in CoS and in GoF. And I seriously doubt that Ron was in love with Hermione by then. I see a lot of shippers saying that Ron wants H/G to be with Hermione but that simply ain't true. Ron has been joking on the posibility of Harry and Ginny long before that. For me Ron knows that Ginny someday will have a boyfriend but he rather it be someone he knows that someone that he doesn't know. Ron cares for Harry deeply. He knows that Ginny likes him, so why not have them toguether. Yes it may a childish way to think. But he simply may have good intentions behind it. He may think that his little sister and his best friend would be the greatest thing in the world. Mainly (please don't be offended) I see H/Hr shippers making that comment.

To the reader Cho was just a crush but to Harry she was the girl he'd been keen on since POA. The point is the relationship failed and Cho failed to get anywhere near to the level of feeling Harry has for Hermione, or anywhere near the importance she has in his life. I've said it lots of times: any outside girl has to take the place of Hermione as the girl who is the most special to Harry. She is afterall one of his two best friends and his best female friend.

I disagree Hermione's wasn't the fault of H/C relationship. It's Cho's crying and emotional pinness what brings Harry's crush to a downfall. Looked at his reaction after the kiss.

Harry said nothing. Hermione's words opened up a whole new vista of frightening possibilities. He tried to imagine going somewhere with Cho — Hogsmeade, perhaps - and being alone with her for hours at a time. Of course, she would have been expecting him to ask her out after what had just happened… the thought made his stomach clench painfully

Instead of being happy about it and look forward to be kissing Cho again Harry's stomach clench painfully at the though of having to be with Cho alone or dating her.

He did not answer. Yes, he had liked Cho for ages, but whenever he had imagined a scene involving the two of them it had always featured a Cho who was enjoying herself, as opposed to a Cho who was sobbing uncontrollably into his shoulder.

Again. For a 15 year old who has just kissed the girl of his dreams. Harry is a very unattached to her. Harry's dreams have been crushed to pieces when Cho failed his mental image on how the kiss should have been. Ron's reaction to Hermione's kiss on the cheek was twice as strong as Harry's reaction to Cho's kiss. And Harry had just snooged Cho, which is very different.

If he had known, this time last night, that in twenty-four hours' time he would have kissed Cho Chang…

Maybe next time… if there was a next time… she'd be a bit happier. He ought to have asked her out; she had probably been expecting it and was now really angry with him… or was she lying in bed, still crying about Cedric? He did not know what to think.

Instead of Harry pondering the kiss and looking eagerly forward to a date with Cho. He is sitting there thinking if she is crying over Cedric. The kiss didn't mean nothing to him. He said he wouldn't have done it anyway.

"Oh" said Hary as his stomach leapt unconfortably.
>>snip<<
"yes it's on Valentine's day. . .
"Right," said Harry, wonddering why she was telling this.

Then on the day of the famous date.

Entrance Hall to meet Cho, feeling very apprehensive and wondering what on earth they were going to talk about.

Harry's feet seemed to be too big for his body as he walked towards her and he was suddenly horribly aware of his arms and how stupid they must look swinging at his sides.

They stared at each other for a moment, then Harry said, 'Well - er — shall we go, then?'

Ginny skimming along over the stands and felt a horrible pang that he was not up there with them.

The girls sped up, talking and shrieking in a pointed fashion with many exaggerated glances back at Harry and Cho, leaving an embarrassed silence in their wake. Harry could think of nothing else to say about Quidditch, and Cho, slightly flushed, was watching her feet.

They sat down at the last remaining table, which was over by the steamy window. Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw Quidditch Captain,i was sitting about a foot and a half away with a pretty blonde girl. They were holding hands. The sight made Harry feel uncomfort-. able, particularly when, looking around the teashop, he saw that it was full of nothing but couples, all of them holding hands. Perhaps Cho would expect him to hold her hand.

In the time it took for their coffees to arrive, Roger Davies and his girlfriend had started kissing over their sugar bowl. Harry wished they wouldn't; he felt that Davies was setting a standard with which Cho would soon expect him to compete. He felt his face growing hot and tried staring out of the window, but it was so steamed up he couldn't see the street outside. To postpone the moment when he would have to look at Cho, he stared up at the ceiling as though examining the paintwork and received a handful of confetti in the face from their hovering cherub.

So before Harry even mention Hermione his crush was on a downfall. Harry lack desire (I'll PM if you need a better clarification as I can't post it here) to kiss Cho, hold her hands and instead of eagerly looking forward to his date. He was unattentive, unresponsive and at one moment he was wishing to be with Ron and Ginny on the Quidditch pitch. Harry's relationship with Cho failed because of Cho's crying when she kissed him. At one point he doesn't want to look at her when he should be looking forward to snoog with her. Cho became a failing image on Harry's head, long before Hermione's was even mention. Her insecurities over other girls and Hermione were an added bonus to Harry's failing crush. The reason why I kept on failing after that it's because Cho's constant crying and weepiness. Harry had no desire to pursue Cho. Look on how he described her as the date ends.

'Why does she always want to drag up a subject that makes her act like a human hosepipe?'

Human hosepipe. NICE! It's Harry's unwillingness to fix things with Cho what sets this relationship into a downfall. Hermione gave him the tools to fix it. Harry had no interest in fixing things with Cho. Simply because he had lost interest in her.

No I think Harry and Ginny got to know each other better and become friends in OOTP which is an advance. But that's a long way away from being his great intended. The barrier is still there in my view.

What barrier? I don't understand. :no:

But the basic structure of the novels remains, two more years of Hogwarts to go. That most likely means small scattered scenes with each other within groups of people rather than the hours of class and homework time Harry will spend with Ron and Hermione. Hermione's basic function in the books is as the female lead character. She's been an essential part of all the books. Why would her character suddenly be downgraded and given less stage time just as the series reaches its climax? Hermione became even more important and prominent in OOTP than ever before. This I feel is the basic problem with the H/G scenario. In OOTP Harry and Hermione are the two key student characters - they are jointly responsible for leading the fight against the ministry, they are leaders of the students. Ginny is a supporting player. But making Ginny Harry's romantic interest - as in love, not a crush - automatically would elevate her character to being the most significant female character. It would have to, she'd be the hero's great love. But then how can she be the female lead if there already is one? It would be almost like suddenly elevating Neville to be the hero after five books of Harry's story. Yet an H/Hr pairing would not create this structural problem, it would just confirm the pattern that is already there.

I'm sorry but Hermione isn't the female lead. I just don't see her that way. JKR has always described her as the sidekick, she categorizes her as a strong character just the same way Mcgonagall is also. I'm sorry I also don't agree that Hermione and Harry became the two key student characters. I think OoP made the way to separate the trio. Which is why I think it will happend later on. Ron is usually the trendsetter. Next year Harry will be the 'distant' one. One key is that we don't know what classes Hermione and Ron take next year and it seems as if Snape is going to become a problem for Harry. I honestly believe that jkr will separate the Trio furthermore than she did on OoP. It was one of the reasons why I believe jkr would give Ron the Prefect badge and it's probably going to give him the HB one too.

But how realistic is it that
a) Harry, with the second war about to start, would stop focusing on and relying on Hermione enough to suddenly fall in love with Ginny
b) that Hermione, with her obsessive need to keep Harry safe, would allow anyone else to look after, guide and tend to her precious friend. This is a real key point. Putting aside debate on whether her concern is from friendship or a mix of friendship and romantic feelings, the fact is Hermione realises Harry needs her and she's prepared to go to great lengths for him: canning a holiday with her parents to help him, risking expulsion to help him get into Umbridge's office when she's dead against it, risking expulsion again by organising the DA classes, telling him things he doesn't want to hear for his own good when no one else will, risking injury and death for him in the DOM. She knows she's the only one of his friends strong enough to tell him unpopular things, the only one with the ideas, advice, knowledge and skills to be a real asset to him, the person who knows him best. There's no way she's going to take a backward step and allow someone else to get closer to Harry than she is, to give advice to Harry and influence him when it could mean Harry dies.
c) that Ginny would be strong enough to cope with H/Hr's relationship once she became the girlfriend. Because the expectations of being a friend and being a girlfriend are different. Because being the girlfriend she would expect to be number one to Harry, expect him to pay her attention and expect him to spend time with her. And just imagine the conflicts if the trend of Ginny going along with Harry's recklessness and Hermione fighting it continued. In OOTP the debates were between Harry and Hermione while Ron and Ginny had supporting roles. But that dynamic would change if Ginny became Harry's girlfriend.

Again don't take this wrong way. But Hermione will have her own set of problems also.

a.ans) I'm failing here to see why on earth if Ginny and Hermione are friends why can't Harry, Ginny, Hermione and Ron can't work toguether. On problems related to the war. We saw it happening on this book. They all worked toguether and pull thru. I failed to see what has puzzle solving clues and problems can't be worked between them when JKR showed us that they can work toguether.

b.ans) I insist that Hermione's holiday was cancel for The Weasley family not Harry. The Weasley's have been nothing but too good to Hermione. Saying that Hermione cancel her holiday for Harry alone it's just portraying her a bit ungratefull and Hermione ISN'T that way. She may her faults but being ungreatfull is not one of them. If Hermione's efforts is consider being as a sign of her loyalty to him and something good why are Ginny's efforts consider careless. Hermione used the same method Ginny and the Weasley's used. I'm faliling to see why on earth one is consider great thinking and the other one as careless thing to do. The DA meetings were not made up for Harry. Hermione made them for her and for the reason that she wanted to learn because Umbridge wasn't going to teach anything good this year. Hermione simply thinks that she is right all the time. Oftenly she tries to impose (not only with Harry but with other people also) her way of thinking as the correct one. It doesn't mean that she thinks Harry needs her. While Harry does need Hermione intelligence there are other areas that Harry will need to step away from Hermione in order to avoid problems with her.

c.ans)and she will be #1 to Harry. An example of that is how Harry confided in her that he wish to talk to Sirius and how she gave him a bit of hope. On how they play Quidditch touguether. If Harry falls in love with Ginny there are many things that are going to be left aside and are going to be different. I believe it's one of the reasons why jkr left the pairing for the end of the series. In the process I'm sure jkr will loose a lot of readers and many people are going to be dissapointed. The fact is that jkr made this series with character that grow up. Which means that many things will be different as the series progeresses. Falling in love with ginny Harry will experiment wanting to be more time with Ginny than with anyone. An example of this is on how he disregarded Hermione's pleas not to use Umbridge's fire. He simply went on what he wanted. Hermione can nagged Harry to death but he may simply disregarded and pay little attention like he did in that case.

Wow! that was long!
Gily Ann

[Mad Eye Mike]

Mad-I Moody - No problem. :)

[Mad-I Moody]

She knows she's the only one of his friends strong enough to tell him unpopular things, the only one with the ideas, advice, knowledge and skills to be a real asset to him, the person who knows him best. There's no way she's going to take a backward step and allow someone else to get closer to Harry than she is, to give advice to Harry and influence him when it could mean Harry dies.

I don't think I can necessarily agree with the statement in bold. She may be ONE of the people who knows him best, but she still comes up short on really "knowing" Harry in many ways.
1. She really seems to think that he would help her make House-Elf hats when, in reality, he thinks SPEW is a dumb idea.
2. In GoF, after the Quidditch World Cup, they all go back to the Burrow and Harry is waiting on Hedwig to return with a reply from Sirius. He tells Ron and Hermione about his dream. Ron asks Harry to come and play Quidditch in the yard. Hermione says "Ron...Harry doesn't want to play Quidditch right now...he's worried, and he's tired...we all need to go to bed..." but Harry says "Yeah, I want to play Quidditch..." She should have known that Harry would want to play Quidditch to get his mind off of things if she knows Harry better than anyone else.

There are other instances, too, but these are the ones that popped off the top of my head.

[Mad Eye Mike]

I'm sorry but Hermione isn't the female lead. I just don't see her that way. JKR has always described her as the sidekick, she categorizes her as a strong character just the same way Mcgonagall is also. I'm sorry I also don't agree that Hermione and Harry became the two key student characters.


1. Hermione is the lead female. She's not the 'star' of the books (that's Harry), but she is the lead female character. No other female has had more 'screen time' than her; no other has played a more important role than her and no other is as important as her. If Hermione isn't the lead female, then who is?

2. McGonagall is one of many supporting characters along with Dumbledore and Hagrid, but there's no way she even comes close to Hermione's importance.

3. You DO NOT think Harry is one of the two key students of the books? If Harry is not the key, who is?

4. You said Ron is usually the trendsetter. What did you mean? That he sets the standards/tone for everyone else to follow?

[haycheng]

Hi, GilyAnn

Falling in love with ginny Harry will experiment wanting to be more time with Ginny than with anyone. An example of this is on how he disregarded Hermione's pleas not to use Umbridge's fire. He simply went on what he wanted. Hermione can nagged Harry to death but he may simply disregarded and pay little attention like he did in that case.
I find you give very little credit for what Harry did. You also do not believe Harry will grow out of the reckless and become more careful. If H/G happens, I would rather believe H/G can take care themselves. The idea of Hermione continous bother H/G, if H/G indeed happen, troubled me.
As a leading character, I expect harry will become more careful and wise as time go by.

PS: Hermione is indeed the only younger who is willing to stand up to Harry's opinion when he is in rage. None, other than DD has done that yet. Ever Sirus and Molly are too caring and avoid making Harry sad or angry.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

H/Hr are in my opinion Perfect for each other.. They are really close already.. H/G the not that close but they are close... Im still going for H/Hr and always will but Ginny wouldnt be that bad..

[AvadaKedavra]

BT

i believe, has never truly been established to be true. the previous hidden clues (some of which are mentioned in you 5-point theory) are really up to interpretation. i don't think it can be conclusively proven that this so called clues point to ron's feelings for hermione.

I did my 5-point theory not too heavily focused on Ron’s feelings for Hermione, but skimming generally focusing on the important points, the turning points. However, if people choose to deny this, then I am more than happy to come up with masses of Canon evidence for this.

I do believe JKR is setting something up for a second Ron fallout - which won't be permanent mind you, but as far as OOTP is concerned these are the best of friends. As with Ron and Hermione, Harry and Hermione are quite different to each other, they're just more mature about dealing with things. They are however still different, but looking in the same direction.

Well put, Sirius83. Take a :clap: However, I see things a little differently. A second Ron fall out? If you go to Mutant for Hire’s excellent, brilliant, insightful thread called Books Two and Five, you will see an astonishing inter book pattern established throughout the series. The gist of it is that Book One is correlating to Book Four and Seven, Book Two to Book 5, and Book 3 to Book 6.

I included something in my theory about the seed being planted in POA at about their re-conciliation over the pets. I think it’s possible (if the inter book parallels are correct) that Ron and Hermione will have problems throughout Book 6, as they are eventually forced to deal with their feelings, and this will be very tempestuous indeed. However, keeping with the parallel (inter-book-pattern) there will be a re-conciliation that is even more powerful and brings them together even closer and tighter. (The seed emerges from the ground). However, this is only speculation, and I only half-think this will happen. Mind you, if this doesn’t happen it doesn’t mean R/Hr won’t happen. :D

Personally, i think the next one is the final one.

Yes, I agree. The next one(s) will be the final one(s). To me, there are really only two girls who can reach Harry and access him after Sirius’s death, and those are Ginny and Hermione. Very Interesting Indeed.

Haycheng

Nothing too interesting can come out of R/Hr, ever it happens.

I’m not expecting a whirlwind romance, one that we get to hear a lot, and one that satisfies me a lot. All I am expecting is for them to get together, as an important subplot.

There you don't has any problems and how AK shows with his 5-steps-theory it is without any problems straight to R/Hr and that is easy love.

Oi! *steps in with his chest puffed up. Sorry, but this is a blatant misinterpretation of my theory. Flying Phoenix it’s not easy as that. I will patiently touch upon on the many problems that face R/Hr in the future, in my theory.

1)The scope of their friendship causing possible hints and clues to get lost, so even a “move” sometimes won’t work..

2)Hermione’s growing feelings for Ron clashing against her logicality, and part of her denying this.

3) Ron’s fear of getting shot down- i.e. a repeat of the Yule Brawl. He wasn’t shot down then, but he is frightened of wrecking things, wrecking their good friendship, hence his timid steps.

4) Their lingering conflicting personalities, whilst this has been significantly resolved in OOTP, still needs to be polished.

This is off the top of my head.

Can I point something out? My theory IS NOT up for personal interpretation. The only thing which is up for interpretation is the canon that is covered by my theory-i.e. the canon that my theory is based on.

…………………………………………………………………………….

Hawk

When did I ever act like a captain or did the others treat me as the captain?

This may be a misunderstanding on my part, but all of that “00” AND “Jedi” stuff, and the squabbles with MEM, whilst being included in most of your posts, and some people treating you like you’re “very important”, led me to believe that you might be the captain. I care not, if you say you’re not, then you’re not.

In the middle of a heated debate is neither the time or the place for a joke. It is often misinterpeted and viewed as sarcasm or a plain old insult instead of fun.

So it’s ok to joke with H/Hr, and not with R/Hr. That is completely your own opinion, but I would like to point out that I am able to get along and have fun at the same time with many H/Hr. If you, however, want to keep the “field” of “professionalism” restricted to R/Hr, then you do that.

unconscious part of the mind: mental activity not directly perceived by your consciousness, from which memories, feelings, or thoughts can influence your behavior without you realizing it

Precisely.

The first reaction was followed up by a nice little scene between Ron and Hermione when Fleur was introduced very vividly, noticing that JKR gave her some very nice adjectives to Fleur and Ron’s reaction and Hermione’s dismissal that she was Veela.

However, it is the last two examples that I am interested in. Two, and three, because they take place after the Yule Brawl. Hermione suspects Ron may like her. Text is there- “if you don’t like it,” and “ask me before anyone else does and not as a last resort blah blah”.

If the Yule Brawl happened to someone else, I’m sure that the person would think- “if he does like me, if I’m right, what do I feel at this? Hermione is very evaluative. She would not let a big event like this go away without at least some analysis. In this case, Hermione has this subconscious examination.

Subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her.

Your theory depends on me accepting your interpetation in order for the clues to make sense but I don't accept your interpetation. I would rather examine the clues independant then form a theory.

???????????????? I’ve given you clues, Yule Brawl. I’ve given you a theory of what this means to R/Hr. I’ve actually prolonged this theory, using the Fleur instances to bolster my theory, to show how it could stand.

Sorry, Hawk but I’m calling it subconscious examination. That’s what my theory says, and I’m sticking by it.

Now, moving on to Fleur instances.

I’m sorry but I can see that we will NEVER, EVER reach an agreement on this part, and to your argument I can see my counter argument, which is basically the same as it is. I will stick by this to the death of R/Hr (touch wood) because it is such a good part of my theory, being both textual evidence and fitting in my theory.

I have explained those instances to death, and I cannot explain them any more. I believe I have justified myself to the point that the instances do fit in my theory.

BTW, this is my theory. You are refuting it, and I am defending it. So telling me how you will structure your theories is pointless.

However, you’ve done something else, which IMO, needs to be tackled. A :clap: for noticing this (and this is in no way being sarcastic or whatever-you treat me professionally, I’ll treat you like a friend, cos I treat everyone the same.). You have thrown up new canon that I had not remembered, or noticed.

Padma

I went and found the example (albeit with some difficulty seeing as you have an USA edition and mine is UK :D)

I would like to point three things out.

1) Ron is getting a lot of attention. He is getting attention FROM everyone. He is boasting to EVERYONE.
2) Padma Patil is the one who is initiating the conversations not Ron. ”and was making a point of talking to him every time they passed in the corridors.”

3) Notice how JKR chooses to interrupt this with Hermione giving a cutting remark and Ron’s following embarrassment. I’m not insinuating anything by this, but if as you say, Padma is flirting with Ron, and being a lot keener on Ron, why is Hermione cutting in? Can’t she let him have his moment of glory? (again, this is up to interpretation, but you interpret it one way, I’ll interpret it another.)

Mad Eye

I've seen many r/hr shippers say it does not represent love but rather 'impossible love'.

Please put where I said this. If I am not included, then that’s ok.


I think that is all.

As, for the ships, I would allow Gily-Ann the honour of naming the H/G ship, as she is the most avid H/G shipper around those parts. Gily, take many :clap: So, Gily, what’s it going to be?

Signing out,

Avada

[Sirius83]

Let me skip on back to the Hippogriff symbolism, because i love it and i see people were discussing it :p

Symbolism is quite different to the literal representation of the scene. The symbolism i'm speaking of has to do with an imagery set, a situation set by the author using some established symbol. JKR could have used any creature she wnted, but sometime during her years of planning the Harry Potter books before actually writing them, she chose to use the Greek symbol of romantic love.

The literal representation of the scene is Harry and Hermione are riding a Hippogriff to save Sirius. The symbolic representation is that Harry and Hermione are placed together through the Greek symbol of romantic love.

The symbolism here is not in the dialogue, but in the imagery set by the creature JKR chose to use.

Now, what if JKR did intend it to be impossible love? To that i say this - pigs do fly!(Ron's owl) Okay seriously now, I'll put this straight as i see it. There is no concievable reason why JKR would go through the trouble of using all that symbolism to say that H/Hr isn't going to happen. On the contrary, she has told us her clues are burried, right? By digging into the meanings of things we should be finding clues that tell us what is to come, not clues that tell us what isn't to come.

EDIT: I saw that thread AK. While well thought out, i personally don't agreee with it. I don't think the books are linked in such a fashion, but we'll see how things turn out.

[GilyAnn]

Hermione is the lead female. She's not the 'star' of the books (that's Harry), but she is the lead female character. No other female has had more 'screen time' than her; no other has played a more important role than her and no other is as important as her. If Hermione isn't the lead female, then who is?


Just because a person has a lot of screen time it doesn't mean that she is the lead or the heroine. Being the heroine it doesn't mean that she has to be on your face all the time. This is something that it's usually used now but it certainly doesn't have to be that way. There have been cases were the heroine is a character consider to be on the back. This usually in mystery novels. Harry is the hero, alone. JKR has been clear on that. His love interest will be someone aside from there and she doesn't have to be the in your face kind of thing. Ron and Hermione's are his sidekicks. JKR defined that.

McGonagall is one of many supporting characters along with Dumbledore and Hagrid, but there's no way she even comes close to Hermione's importance.

Dumbledore is one of the central characters. So is Hagrid along with Ron and Hermione.

You DO NOT think Harry is one of the two key students of the books? If Harry is not the key, who is?

Harry is not the top of his class. Hermione is but neither Ron or Harry are the top of the class.


You said Ron is usually the trendsetter. What did you mean? That he sets the standards/tone for everyone else to follow?

In PoA Ron had his hormones hit him with Madame Rosemerta, In GoF Harry had his hormones hit him with Cho and Fleur. In GoF Ron went to the angry stage of Hormones. In OoP Harry had the angry stage of hormones. Ron goes thru changes a year ahead of his friends because he is the older one of the trio. JKR usually uses Ron to determined the changes on Harry personality or to give us a clue on what could be. In OoP Ron became on his own and a person aside from his friends. Next year the same thing is going to happend to Harry.

find you give very little credit for what Harry did. You also do not believe Harry will grow out of the reckless and become more careful. If H/G happens, I would rather believe H/G can take care themselves. The idea of Hermione continous bother H/G, if H/G indeed happen, troubled me.

Haycheng please stop insinuating that I don't give enough credit to what Hermione does. I fully know that Harry did question himself if he should go but that wasn't the focus of my statement. If you read the focus of my statement was that once Harry falls in love with Ginny the amount of time that he will want to spend time with Ron and Hermione will be less than he used too. Simply because he is in love and love is very different from a crush. H/G can take perfectly good care of themselves. But that's not what I'm talking about it. Confusing the battle part with romance is a highly dangerous things because they are totally aside. Let's used a hypothetical situation, to see if my point is better undestood. If Harry falls in love with Ginny when Hermione and Ron will ask him if he wants to go to the 3 broomsticks for hogsmade weekend Harry will probably find a very good excuse to stay in the castle or to simply be aside from them just to be alone with Ginny. Is the way it works when you fall in love. Is it fair to Ron or Hermione who have been there from the beginning? Probably not ,but that's the way life is sometimes and the way jkr could probably write it. So that's a question for her to ask. Not me.

Also Sirius step up to Harry in a few ocassions. He did so in GoF and in OoP. Molly also did confronted Harry but the fact is that Harry step over her opinion because he didn't want to be treated as a child. Sirius was the only other person who ever got Harry to step aside from his anger and focus on the problem. Not even DD could get Harry to calm down.

Gily Ann

Edit:

Please put where I said this. If I am not included, then that’s ok.

Don't blame Avada for that because I was the one who said it. And yes the Hipograff used to be in mediaval times a simbol on incongruitity. Because griffins despise horses. So it used to be a symbol of Impossible love.

Name H/G? Hmmm!

Tough one. Since here we don't use the names of F.A. There it's called the Orange Crush. In honor of an author. I'll get back to you on this one. My brain is fried.

[EricaM]

The scene where they fight about Sirius is one of scenes were clearly says to me how different Harry and Hermione are in some terms. Harry is so mad that hits the point of wanting to shake her. It didn't spark electricity it spark a dangerous point of rage and annoyance towards Hermione. Plus Hermione is a very anxious person.

However, to me, it did spark electricity. It's funny how Ron and Hermione have their fights (Yule Brawl for example) and it supposedly smacks of UST, however Harry and Hermione fighting illustrates how Hermione brings him to a 'dangerous point of rage'. Don't you think there were times when Ron felt he could've shaken Hermione too (S.P.E.W. anyone?). True we'll never know for sure since we aren't privy to Ron's thoughts, however, didn't he wish Hermione would 'shut up' about S.P.E.W. sotto voce at some point (IIRC). f Harry's irritation with her bodes badly for a future relationship, what does make of Ron's irritation with Hermione ?

Look at Ron's reaction to the kiss of Fleur and to the kiss Hermione gave him. There is a big difference. With Fleur he blushed he became and idiot, but he never ponder about it again. With the kiss Hermione gave him he became distant, floaty, and he ponder to the point that he touch the side where Hermione kissed him.

Ron was very much looking forward to Fleur's kiss, perhaps very much enjoys it. However, he doesn't know what to make of Hermione's kiss. He doesn't know where to compartmentalise it. It's not quite like his sister kissing him as Hermione isn't his sister, and not quite like Fleur kissing him because he's not obviously attracted/impressed, etc by Hermione. Hermione is just Hermione. So where does that kiss fit in?

But Ron has been hinting at Harry and Ginny long before OoP. He did twice I think in CoS and in GoF. And I seriously doubt that Ron was in love with Hermione by then.

I always thought that Ron hinting at H/G then was more a joke. Most of CoS had people hinting at H/G, Hagrid, Draco the twins, Ron etc. It was the running schtick of CoS. I think that now that he realises that his baby sister is dating, he feels that Harry is 'safest' for his sister, not necessarily that he is aware of any feelings Harry might have for her, or she for him, for that matter.

I'm sorry but Hermione isn't the female lead. I just don't see her that way. JKR has always described her as the sidekick, she categorizes her as a strong character just the same way Mcgonagall is also.

Intentionally or not Hermione does seem to be the female lead, certainly wrt the movies, the character is portrayed as the female lead (all those Harry and Hermione look-a-like contests).

They all worked toguether and pull thru. I failed to see what has puzzle solving clues and problems can't be worked between them when JKR showed us that they can work toguether.

Where where Ron and Ginny when Hermione was trying to persuade Harry that Voldemort may be trying to lure him to the DoM?

Where where Ron and Ginny when Harry was being entranced/enchanted by the 'Veil'?

Why didn't Harry reach out for Ginny when he yelled for all of them to run? Why didn't Ron reach out for Hermione? Why didn't JKR divy it up: Harry/Ginny/Neville and Ron/Hermione/Luna?

I insist that Hermione's holiday was cancel for The Weasley family not Harry.

She didn't cancel it before Mr. Weasley's attack, therefore whe wasn't particularly interested in being with the Weasley family for Christmas. After the attack, when she arrives, she's in the door and knocking on Harry's door within minutes, the snow hasn't even melted off her hair yet.

What was the scene, 'Hermione enters, and runs toward the stairs calling over her shoulder 'Hi Mrs. Weasley, glad to hear about Mr. Weasley, I've come to spend Christmas with you, if that's OK, oh, and by the way, Ron and Ginny sent word that Harry is in a blue funk, so I'll just go up and check on him before I take my jacket off ..'

and she will be #1 to Harry. An example of that is how Harry confided in her that he wish to talk to Sirius and how she gave him a bit of hope. On how they play Quidditch touguether. If Harry falls in love with Ginny there are many things that are going to be left aside and are going to be different.

Doesn't Harry brush Ginny off a couple of times after that, like when he and Hermione are arguing about rescuing Sirius? Though he he does think shes was a good player, Harry isn't too wowed by Ginny's playing - wasn't he critical of her not being able to get the snitch in time to win the game at one point? However, he thinks Hermione has brilliant ideas, between the DA and the Quibbler article [I], she is the one to orchestrate periods of relief for Harry.

Erica

[Grace Granger]

She didn't cancel it before Mr. Weasley's attack, therefore whe wasn't particularly interested in being with the Weasley family for Christmas. After the attack, when she arrives, she's in the door and knocking on Harry's door within minutes, the snow hasn't even melted off her hair yet.

What was the scene, 'Hermione enters, and runs toward the stairs calling over her shoulder 'Hi Mrs. Weasley, glad to hear about Mr. Weasley, I've come to spend Christmas with you, if that's OK, oh, and by the way, Ron and Ginny sent word that Harry is in a blue funk, so I'll just go up and check on him before I take my jacket off ..'


Exactly! Erica, Hermione had to have been told by Dumbledore by the time she left that Mr. Weasley was okay. The Weasley's did find out by morning time, just as Hermione would have found out as well.
In my opinion, she went to support Harry more than the Weasleys.

[snitch14]

Hermione was most worried about Harry, she didn't worry about Ron being upset about his father, or in fact, she didn't ask questions about Mr. Weasley but ran straight for Harry.

She had pink cheeks, she didn't even have time to warm up in the house, she was already by Harry. o.O

[Mad-I Moody]

About the hippogriff symbolizing impossible love:

By digging into the meanings of things we should be finding clues that tell us what is to come, not clues that tell us what isn't to come.

But isn't what isn't to come part of what is to come? I'm not meaning to be cryptic -- but seriously, doesn't the future involve things that happen as well as things that don't happen? For instance, say you're around 22 and you want to get married in the next 3 years or so. So, come your 25th birthday, you might be thinking, "I should be married by now, but I'm not." Maybe you DO get a boyfriend or something, but you don't get married. Your future at 22 (from the perspective of you at 22) consists of something that does NOT happen by the time you are 25. So the things that don't happen are as much a part of what is to come as the things that DO happen.

Therefore, JKR could just as easily use the hippogriff to symbolize impossible love as she could to symbolize romantic love. If she's using symbolism at all, that is. ;)

Hermione was most worried about Harry, she didn't worry about Ron being upset about his father, or in fact, she didn't ask questions about Mr. Weasley but ran straight for Harry.

She had pink cheeks, she didn't even have time to warm up in the house, she was already by Harry. o.O


Does it say that she didn't ask questions about Mr. Weasley? Does it say she doesn't stop off downstairs and have a quick chat with Ron about how his dad's doing? I can certainly see it going this way:

Hr: Ron - I heard what happened, I came as soon as I could. Is your dad all right?
R: He's in St. Mungo's. They think he'll be fine. So I guess you heard about Harry, too?
Hr: Yeah, I did. How is he?
R: Terrible. He's not even speaking to us. He hasn't come out of his room.
Hr: What?
R: Yeah, maybe you can talk to him.
Hr: OK, I'll see what I can do.

That would take all of 30 seconds. She wouldn't have time to warm up in the house.

Since we don't really know what happened from the moment Hermione arrived at 12GP to the moment she burst into Harry's room, we can't really prove her intentions one way or the other. In fact, couldn't her skipping out on her vacation with her parents just mean that she knew her TWO best friends were having a hard time -- Ron with his dad and Harry with his dream? She would want to be where they were, obviously.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't have my book. Ron WAS aware that Hermione was at 12GP talking to Harry, right? I mean, he doesn't come into the room and say "Hermione, what are you doing here?" does he? Can someone clear this up for me?

In any case, Hermione's intentions here are all up to interpretation. She never says that she came only to see Harry, nor does she ever say that she came to see Mr. Weasley. She DOES say that skiing isn't her thing...

[Sirius83]

But that doesn't make sense. It really doesn't make sense to go through all the trouble of symbolism to just say "This will not happen" when she could have used something else that simply does not point to romantic love at all. She could use any of a large variety of winged horses. She could also have invented her own. On the other hand, going through all that trouble to say it won't happen at that early stage in the game? Doesn't add up. The clues are supposed to point to future events, not the absence of future events.

Now if JKR is in fact saying the Hippogriff is impossible love, then why is she having Harry and Hermione flying together on it? Saying this impossible love isn't really impossible?

This isn't the only time JKR uses the Hippogriff by the way. Ron predicts he will get trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff. Whether this be the romantic or impossible love, Ron doesn't come off for the better out of it, he gets trampled. What do you say to this?

What about Beaky's presence when Hermione manages to get Harry to open up and go with her? JKR could have locked Harry in any room, so why the one with Buckbeak and then have Hermione get through to him?

[EricaM]

About the hippogriff symbolizing impossible love:

Therefore, JKR could just as easily use the hippogriff to symbolize impossible love as she could to symbolize romantic love. If she's using symbolism at all, that is. ;)

I think we should also take into consideration that hippogriff symbolizes impossible love in 'our world' because hippogriffs do not exist. However in the magical world they do exist. Apparently, Griffins and Mares do mate (and pigs fly ;) ), so there is nothing impossible about it.

Bringing runes back into this (I know, I'm obsessed). The rune Ehwaz representing trust, loyalty, partnership, things that we associate with Hermione, means 'horse' (mare?) and Harry, is a true 'Griffin d'or' being able to pull Godric's sword from the hat (Griffin) so ... Harry+Hermione=Griffin+Mare=Hippogriff (Love) ;)

Erica :D

[FlyingPhoenix]

Number 1

I still don't believe and I still don't buy H/G or R/Hr just because Hermione don't show the slightest way to change. You call it mothering I call it careing or better I call it take Harry as her number 1 and nobody else. Not Ron, not Krum and not even her own parents (If you think different about christmas just look at the end how she free herself from her mother which she didn't saw since a whole year).
Now if R/Hr should or want happen than there need to main change in her character. She need to take Ron before Harry but how I said before as long Voldemort is after Harry so long she just won't drop her priorities to Harry. JKR need even take her away from Harry but how will she do it how will she write that the most interfering girl in this books suddenly turns around and just don't care anymore like she did since the very first day she saw him. Maybe JKR kills her parents and that dos the clue but so far I don't see how Hermione will turn into a just plain friend like Ginny in OotP. There is the different Ginny isn't interfering like Hermione.
About Ginny and Harry its for me very important that Harry just ignor Ginny or rather forget her. He didn't even remember that she was possed by Voldemort. Than as she came into the fight between Harry and Hermione. Its how it is he gos straight back to that what he did since his 2th year ignore her or think she isn't important. See her only as another Weasley. He said She can't help him but believed just seconds, minutes before that Hermione could help him. Thats rather strang if you go and say in book6 Ginny might help Harry and that he even go to ger and ask for help. To be exactly he never did ask her to help him it was her idea to ask her own brothers. I really doubt that after Harry know that Hermione was right in OotP gos to Ginny and ask her to help him.

That says I doubt that Harry will change his doing and take Hermione as his nummber one. All the time as Harry was after Cho, she was never his nummber one. Always was it Hermione thats the reason why Cho was jealousy about Hermione. Not because she is his best friend its because Harry showed Cho more as once that Hermione is for him more important as any relationship with her. The same did count for Krum. He wasn't jealousy because of any article he was it because he was only thin air if it came to Harry.
If you as crush are in the shadow behind another girl which you know very well is very close to your "Boy-friend" than you start to wonder and you wonder why you on the second place and not on the first.
You see it, you can taste and you know it that this two are just more than plain friends. Just they don't see it by themself.

[hermy_weasley2]

I'm new here. Well new here in this thread. Wow 65 pages and there's still always the same Harry/Hermione blah,blah,balh and Ron/Hermione blah,blah,blah and Ginny/Harry blah,blah,blah and so on and so on and so on. Now here's my two cents in all this:
I'm big on Ron and Hermione getting together at some point (as you can see in my user name) and I'm also big on Harry and Ginny. I used to be undecided between H/H or R/H, but the more I hear the arguments of H/H the more I doubt anything ever happening there. I think Harry thinks of Hermione as just "one of the guys." He does need her, but he needs her for a friend. Besides, everything seems to be pointing to R/H since CoS. Having browsed this thread, I'm sure I don't have to repeat any of that. Just know I'm ver opinionated whe it comes to that.



As for H/G, I think Ginny being over her crush is allowing Harry to see what she's really like. I don't think she's changed at all, but she has changed her attitude around Harry. Yes, Hermione's said she's over her crush, and she is dating other guys, but I don't think that nessicarily means anything. Harry and Ginny have a lot of the same talents e.g. Quidditch,everything that comes with that and spellwork. They've also had similar experiences with certain Dark Lords. I think the scene in which Ginny makes Harry remember that she has been posessed by Voldemort was a sign from JKR that Harry is noticing this connection more as well. Also, I think the way Harry found out that Ginny had replaced him as Seeker was very...blunt. I see this as a wake up call from JKR to say ," Hey Harry remember Ginny?" I also get the impressio that Harry noticed that Ginny was talking to/in front of him long before he mentioned it. It's kind of like one of those things where you have a feeling something's strange, but you don't want to say anything, because you're afraid it's just you. Anyway, remember, we see things through HARRY's eyes, and the fact that Ginny came up a lot more in this book was only because she came up a lot more in Harry's POV. Has she moved on? Yes. Is she over Harry? No.

I'm sure I repeated someone's arguments here, but these are my opinions. I think you all need to take a rest and see that nothing new is going to come up with any of these combinations until JKR finishes Book 6.

[Mad-I Moody]

This isn't the only time JKR uses the Hippogriff by the way. Ron predicts he will get trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff. Whether this be the romantic or impossible love, Ron doesn't come off for the better out of it, he gets trampled. What do you say to this?

Well, I say that I don't buy the whole hippogriff/symbolism deal, really. I mean, I was being a little tongue in cheek about he whole thing. But, if I were to believe in it, I would say that Ron being trampled would symbolize Ron being bowled over, so to speak, by his new, previously unrecognized, feelings for Hermione. Love can run you over, indeed, and Ron could be feeling a little trampled by his new feelings. I don't think it has to be interpreted negatively.

What about Beaky's presence when Hermione manages to get Harry to open up and go with her? JKR could have locked Harry in any room, so why the one with Buckbeak and then have Hermione get through to him?

I would say that Harry was in need of some non-human comfort at the time when Hermione found him. Yes, she was able to talk to him, but I think that Harry being alone in the room with Buckbeak was more of a need for company of the non-human sort. Something to keep the loneliness at bay, but still something that wouldn't judge him.

As I've said, I don't buy into the symbolism stuff, because it can simply be interpreted in so many ways. There is no conclusive proof for it -- it's all he says/she says.

[Sirius83]

Well, bowled over is quite different to trampled. Trampled suggests he doesn't come off well from it...is run over, hurt. As for non-human company, why not Hedwig? Hedwig's always there for Harry, so why stick him with Buckbeak?

As for the symbolism, i think there is proof of it. The Harry Potter books are riddled with symbolism all over the place. To ignore them is pretty much ignoring a part of the book if you ask me. It would appear that part of all those years of planning the story by JKR was in finding various symbolic references to use.

[GilyAnn]

However, to me, it did spark electricity. It's funny how Ron and Hermione have their fights (Yule Brawl for example) and it supposedly smacks of UST, however Harry and Hermione fighting illustrates how Hermione brings him to a 'dangerous point of rage'. Don't you think there were times when Ron felt he could've shaken Hermione too (S.P.E.W. anyone?). True we'll never know for sure since we aren't privy to Ron's thoughts, however, didn't he wish Hermione would 'shut up' about S.P.E.W. sotto voce at some point (IIRC). f Harry's irritation with her bodes badly for a future relationship, what does make of Ron's irritation with Hermione ?

They Yule ball was just hilarious! The problem is that even though we don't get an inside of Ron's thoughts. H/HR are always saying that if Rowling wanted to get a point across she will make it clear or hinted somehow. Therefore by that premise then we would have to think that Ron never thought of it.

Ron was very much looking forward to Fleur's kiss, perhaps very much enjoys it. However, he doesn't know what to make of Hermione's kiss. He doesn't know where to compartmentalise it. It's not quite like his sister kissing him as Hermione isn't his sister, and not quite like Fleur kissing him because he's not obviously attracted/impressed, etc by Hermione. Hermione is just Hermione. So where does that kiss fit in?

Text please were it says that Ron wanted Fleur to kiss him. He only said "a bit". And read again that part of my posts. I made a clear distintion between one kiss and the other. Hermione kissed fit into the I like you as more than a friend and I'm maybe starting to fall for you.

I always thought that Ron hinting at H/G then was more a joke. Most of CoS had people hinting at H/G, Hagrid, Draco the twins, Ron etc. It was the running schtick of CoS. I think that now that he realises that his baby sister is dating, he feels that Harry is 'safest' for his sister, not necessarily that he is aware of any feelings Harry might have for her, or she for him, for that matter.

Ron hints thru all CoS. Everyone else dropped it by the middle of the book and Ron ketp on going. He certainly doesn't seem to mind that Harry takes Ginny to the ball. He may simply think that Ginny is best suited for Harry. Heck there is even a very funny fanfic about that. Also if all those people 'hinted' at H/G. Couldn't it be a form of Ironic foreshadowing? After all Ron was joking but who is it that says that everything that Ron jokes with comes true or something like that.

Intentionally or not Hermione does seem to be the female lead, certainly wrt the movies, the character is portrayed as the female lead (all those Harry and Hermione look-a-like contests).

Seem the key word. She may seem but she may not be.

She didn't cancel it before Mr. Weasley's attack, therefore whe wasn't particularly interested in being with the Weasley family for Christmas. After the attack, when she arrives, she's in the door and knocking on Harry's door within minutes, the snow hasn't even melted off her hair yet.

Why should she cancel it if everything was going well? The Weasley's have treated her like a daughter and Mr. Weasley is on the hospital. Why shouldn't she go to the family that has been nothing but good to her. For Ginny her best friend, for Mrs. Weasley who's like a second mother to her. Saying that she wasn't interested in the Weasley's is simply disregarding cannon.

What was the scene, 'Hermione enters, and runs toward the stairs calling over her shoulder 'Hi Mrs. Weasley, glad to hear about Mr. Weasley, I've come to spend Christmas with you, if that's OK, oh, and by the way, Ron and Ginny sent word that Harry is in a blue funk, so I'll just go up and check on him before I take my jacket off ..'

And see how ridiculous that sounded. How about if she got there and Ron and Ginny ploted with her that she went and get Harry for them and brought him to the room. After all Ron and Ginny were already waiting there for her and Harry. A simple plot and a lot more credible than Hermione disregarding the Weasley's.

Doesn't Harry brush Ginny off a couple of times after that, like when he and Hermione are arguing about rescuing Sirius? Though he he does think shes was a good player, Harry isn't too wowed by Ginny's playing - wasn't he critical of her not being able to get the snitch in time to win the game at one point? However, he thinks Hermione has brilliant ideas, between the DA and the Quibbler article [I], she is the one to orchestrate periods of relief for Harry.

He is rude to her and she raises her eyebrows and set's him straight. Notice that he said he didn't want to speak to Luna Lovegood. Also Harry said that he was VERY impressed by Ginny's flying but he could have caught the Snitch faster. And I have no doubt that he could have done better than Ginny simply because he has played more times than Ginny and Ginny's strong parts it's on others side of the game. Also yes Hermione's ideas are briliant but so were Ginny's.

Gily Ann

[haycheng]

To GilyAnn
If I ever be rude to you, tell me. Although I do not remember anything, I will sincerely apology.
I do not believe I have ever said you discredit what Hermione did. However, I am slightly taken back by your Harry analysis. It sounds like he is ungraceful for what Hermione did. I will response more when I have time and energy.

PS: Harry is indeed the best seeker in the recently history in that school. Remember how happy Pro. McD when she finds out harry's talent? I believe Ginny is good, except she is not up to the ability of Harry in the post of seeker
PS: Ginny has yet made any decision that affect harry in any meanful way. The idea is her bothers, not Ginny. We has not seen harry showing any apreciate to any Ginny's action yet .
I believe Ginny have the possible and it is almost as high as Hermione. I mainly take my faith on her crush and her fexibility as a character(not complete yet). I can not agree with your certain analysis though.

[Mad-I Moody]

I agree that there is symbolism in the book. I just don't think that EVERYTHING is a symbol. Dumbledore means bumblebee...ok, that doesn't mean I think Dumbledore is an Animagus (though he may be, I certainly don't know). I don't think he even has many characteristics of a bumblebee, personally.

The character Hermione in Shakespeare's "A Winter's Tale" dies. That doesn't mean that Hermione is going to die.

From mugglenet:
Parvati - Parvati is a Hindu Goddess married to Hindu God Siva the Destroyer. She gave birth to a baby boy named Ganesh, who Siva beheaded, but replaced the old head with an elephant head after Parvati reamed him out. Sister of the Goddess of the Ganges, Padma.

--I don't think this means that Parvati is going to behead someone.

In other words, Buckbeak could or could not be a symbol. It is easily defensible either way. I personally don't view him as one, but others are more than welcome to. However, I must say that in viewing him as a symbol, he is up to a multitude of interpretations. Does he symbolize impossible love, romantic love, or love between friends? What does it mean that Harry and Hermione ride on Buckbeak together? What does it mean that Hermione doesn't like it? Why is Harry in the room with Buckbeak when Hermione comes to talk to him? Why does Sirius keep Buckbeak locked up in 12 GP?

There are literal and symbolic answers to all of these questions. It can offer nothing more than circumstantial evidence to anyone's ship. However, since ships are based mostly on circumstantial evidence and individual interpretations of the works themselves, I guess I'm just making a needless point. :)

Well, bowled over is quite different to trampled. Trampled suggests he doesn't come off well from it...is run over, hurt.
Well, the literal definition of trampled would suggest that, yes. But, as he is in Divination, maybe we should take what he says and put a more figurative/symbolic slant on it? trampled, run down, run over, charged, bowled over -- all suggest being taken by surprise -- being knocked down (maybe figuratively, yes?) by something bigger than himself.

And, well, love can hurt sometimes. :agree:

[FlyingPhoenix]

That would take all of 30 seconds. She wouldn't have time to warm up in the house.

Every conversation and every break between Hermione step into the house and hammering against the door at 3th floor don't exist because even it is only 30 seconds snow dos melt in 30 seconds and you need to count to that the time she went or rather run the step up. So she can't have speaked like that to Ron. She didn't even need it because Dumbledore did already everything explain and I'm very sure that Dumbledore is one of the first who know that Mr. Weasley is alright. He even might tell Hermione that she don't need to go to 12G.
Hermione herself didn't say she is there because off Mr. Weasley she said because "Skiing isn't my thing!" Why should she lie to Harry if she was indeed there because she worried about Ron? She is one of his friends so she don't need to lie. But if she is there because she worried about Harry and that he seperate himself from all other because he thought he might be possed by Voldemort. Do you think he would go with her if she did tell him that?
By the way this very scene let me think that Hermione won't let Harry do this in book6 again.

[Sirius83]

Agreed with the first part of the book. Not everything is a symbol, but there is still an awful lot going for the case. Buckbeak may or may not follow the pattern, but it seems JKR has used these mythical creatures in the full knowledge of their meanings.

By the way, the Hippogriff does not symbolise the love between friends, but rather eros love, which is romantic love. Incidentally, it is interesting that Hindu Godesses are supposed to be attractive, and JKR made Parvati and Padma two of the prettiest girls in the year.

Literal and symbolic meanings of being trampled? Unlike the previously mentioned situations, trampled is not a symbol. The Hippogriff is a symbol. He is trampled by love, this is not love in a positive light. In other words, his romantic love does not work out. It fits well considering that JKR has made it so his romantic interest(Hermione) has so far shown interest in Krum and a possible interest in Harry, both more than she has shown for Ron.

EDIT: FP, good point. Why would Hermione need to lie about why she came to Grimmauld? If she came to see if Arthur was alright, there was no need to make something up. There is no reasons he would actually cancel her vacation because skiing isn't her thing, because she hardly ever gets to see her parents. On the other hand, if she came saying she arrived because she didn't want Harry sulking, is that giving away her feelings or what?

[Daveydee]

GilyAnn youve put up some excellent posts lately. A big :clap: to you.

Look at Rons reaction to the kiss of Fleur and to the kiss Hermione gave him. There is a big difference. With Fleur he blushed he became and idiot, but he never ponder about it again. With the kiss Hermione gave him he became distant, floaty, and he ponder to the point that he touch the side where Hermione kissed him. In a way Hermione's kiss simply took him to a different dimension to the point that he was too distracted to realize what was going on around him.
Absolutely right – NEVER let it be said again that Ron's feelings are no more than a transient crush. It has moved from a crush to genuine and deeper feelings. Just the way relationships in the real world develop, in fact.

I honestly believe that JKR will separate the Trio furthermore than she did on OoP.
Well done for pointing this out. It's what the whole DoM scene was all about. How can anybody fail to see this. If there was no intention to put some coming-of-age distance between the trio, why bother to write Ginny, Neville and Luna into the DoM scene AND to write Ron and Hermione out of the climax of that scene.

She may be ONE of the people who knows him best, but she still comes up short on really "knowing" Harry in many ways.
Yep – right again, Mad-I. AK and I have both made the point that whilst Hermione may be very effective with Harry in critical situations, she is rather less effective in connecting with him on a day to day basis in mundane matters when the future of wizard-kind is not at stake. Real-world relationships require two people to connect on those everyday matters.

However, I see things a little differently. A second Ron fall out? If you go to Mutant for Hire’s excellent, brilliant, insightful thread called Books Two and Five, you will see an astonishing inter book pattern established throughout the series. The gist of it is that Book One is correlating to Book Four and Seven, Book Two to Book 5, and Book 3 to Book 6.
Im glad you brought that up AK. That was a truly spectacular piece of work from Mutant, that has won him plaudits across the forum.(Hes a R/Hr shipper, as well, you know. :tu: He knows his stuff). I am sure all have read it. I mentioned some time ago in a post that I felt that Book 6 would see a falling out between Harry and Hermione over Luna Lovegood. Harry has much empathy with Luna, Hermione has none. Reading Mutant's post has reinforced my belief in this.

BTW some excellent posting from you too AK. Take a :clap: .

There is no conceivable reason why JKR would go through the trouble of using all that symbolism to say that H/Hr isn't going to happen. On the contrary, she has told us her clues are buried, right? By digging into the meanings of things we should be finding clues that tell us what is to come, not clues that tell us what isn't to come.
How deep must the average reader dig to find the clues, though? I've said it before – 99% of the readers of HP are not like us. How deep should the average reader dig? How many layers must the average reader peel away? Does the average reader look at the text, the sub-text or the sub-sub-text?

Haycheng – a question. Which ship do you sail aboard? You posted this on 28 July:

I do not ship anything anyways, AK . I just anti-R/Hr.

followed by this on 2 August:

As some oldtimers know, I also believe in H/G. The Library scene is certainly a moment for H/G.

I see you now proudly display your membership of HMS Harmony Auror Division. What exactly is your stance? It would be useful to know. :huh:

[haycheng]

I take the offer when the forum mostly about H/Hr and H/R. As I offer more to H/Hr than to most ship, I decide to join. The problem with H/G is simply that it has not much to talking about. However, as you are confuse and I believe a solo status may better suit me, I will hand in my resignation today.

To H/Hr shipmate, I believe a solo status may be suit me slightly better. However, my resignation will by no mean change any of my stand. I simply need to make my stand clearer.

I believe JKR have drop hints on R/Hr, H/Hr, H/G, R/L and G/N. Other than R/Hr, I have no problem with any other pairings. Upon exam my own posts, I believe I am slight favor toward H/Hr.

[Mad-I Moody]

trampled is not a symbol

Not specifically, no, but why can it not be taken/read figuratively or symbolically? Many words have figurative meanings beneath their literal ones, especially when read in certain contexts. If the hippogriff is read as a symbol for love, then it cannot "literally" trample Ron. Trample, therefore, must mean something subtextually in the context of the hippogriff being a symbol.

This is why I'm saying that symbols are what you make of them and they can offer nothing but circumstantial evidence toward a ship.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, and I guess that a snowflake can melt in 30 seconds in a heated room, etc. But if Hermione's hair is laden with snowflakes, from the time it takes her to have a brief conversation with Ron to the time she busts in on Harry, I don't think it could all melt away. By the way, that conversation I typed out would only take about 15-20 seconds. So give her 10 more to dash up the stairs, and voila -- 30-35 seconds. She's had a conversation with Ron, her cheeks are still pink because the house isn't blazingly hot, and the snow hasn't all melted from her hair.

[Sirius83]

I think you're misunderstanding what i'm speaking of as being a symbol. A symbol in this context is a creature, name or article that has a reference to some mythical meaning. This is why i say that the Hippogriff is a symbol and trampled is not. The Hippogriff is a creature pulled out of Greek mythology that symbolises eros(romantic) love. Trampled on the other hand, is nothing but a word that means to pretty much walk or run over something or someone, and not really in a positive light. Think "he was trampled by the crowd rushing to the exits"

[Mad Eye Mike]

Avada - I didn't mention you by name or intials so why you thought I was talking about you, I don't know. When you see me post 'AK' then I'm talking about you.


Moving on...


Just because a person has a lot of screen time it doesn't mean that she is the lead or the heroine. Being the heroine it doesn't mean that she has to be on your face all the time.<edit>


R/Hr might be Harry's sidekicks, but when you break down who's the lead male and who's the lead female, it's Harry & Hermione.


Dumbledore is one of the central characters. So is Hagrid along with Ron and Hermione.


Unless it's an ensemble (which HP is not), they're all supporting characters to some degree as ultimately, it's Harry's story. However, by nature of being the main girl in Harry's life for the past 5 years, Hermione is the lead female character in the books. She's not some supporting player who just hangs around the star. An example of a supporting character would be Neville, Fred, George, Etc. Until OotP, Neville was never important - not in Harry's life and not in the books. Hermione is important in both, that make her the lead female.


Harry is not the top of his class. Hermione is but neither Ron or Harry are the top of the class.


You said before and I quote:


I'm sorry I also don't agree that Hermione and Harry became the two key student characters.


Now you say Hermione is. so which is it?

[FlyingPhoenix]

Well done for pointing this out. It's what the whole DoM scene was all about. How can anybody fail to see this. If there was no intention to put some coming-of-age distance between the trio, why bother to write Ginny, Neville and Luna into the DoM scene AND to write Ron and Hermione out of the climax of that scene.

Sorry, but I'm now little bit behind the light. If I remember right did Mad eye Mike wrote a whole essay where he showed that Ron isn't there as COS, PoA, GoF and OotP had the climax but yet you say Ron isn't seperated to H/Hr. Now you say that because Hermione and Ron were knocked out like luna and Ginny that this show how the trio seperate in a way that this make H/G and R/Hr possible. This is slightly distrupting me now because you seems to disagree yourself.

I mentioned some time ago in a post that I felt that Book 6 would see a falling out between Harry and Hermione over Luna Lovegood. Harry has much empathy with Luna, Hermione has none. Reading Mutant's post has reinforced my belief in this.

Book3 might related to Book6 but this don't say Harry and Hermione fall out and Luna comes in. Because Book3 isn't just about fighting its about fears and danger all around and that say Book6 will be twice so scary as book3.

How deep must the average reader dig to find the clues, though? I've said it before – 99% of the readers of HP are not like us. How deep should the average reader dig? How many layers must the average reader peel away? Does the average reader look at the text, the sub-text or the sub-sub-text?
You right he don't do it but this is the clue. No, normal reader would in PoA get that at the very moment as H/Hr/R were going under the cloak through the entrance hall that at the same time were Futur H/Hr running across the hall and the present Hermione did hear this running.
Like no normal reader wouldn't get the clue that not Snape was jinxing Potter but it was Quirell. Or much better that In COS Ginny did behaive strange because she has something with the petriefied students to do.
One more or that Hermione dos TimeTravel because she was on two places at once. So why bring this hints in a book if the most reader don't get it? So I can probably say that somewhere in book6 or seven if Harry has his NEWTs in Hagrids class he might write a essay about hippogriffs and there he write its a simbole of true love at this moment the reader hit his very head.

[Frostbite_Panda]

:clap: to all the great posts! Great work! ^.^

And uh...I'm a bit behind.

About the Hippogriff symbolisim:

I think it was really ingenious, and rather subtel if you will. What I love about JKR's work is that it's a great tapestry of twining subteties, symbolisim, and metaphor. To kind of ignore the fact that she voulentarily chose a hippogriff as the species of Buckbeak is like excusing the fact that she voulentarily chose a snake as the symbol of Slytherin, the lion for Gryffidor, and so on.

She uses alot of animal devices in her work, such as a rat being Peter Pettigrew's animangus form. He basically "ratted" the Potter family out to Voldie. He does remind me of a rat in alot of ways. As does Sirius' dog form. He's fiercly loyal.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

And a thrity second conversation with Ron would've melted the snow in Hermione's hair I think. But i guess a thrity second climb up the stairs would've too...O.o did she Apperate there? Sheesh!

But great posts made by MEM and Sirius83!

Sorry for the relatively shabby post, I wanted to say more, but I'm in a hurry.

I also found it interesting the JK chose to have Harry spend most of his time with Buckbeak during that time. It was almost like he was depending on Hermione's love. ^.^

And then of course when Hermione coaxes him out of his shell Buckbeak was also present. ^.^

Just a humble, contemplative observation! *Ducks*

~panda

[Mad-I Moody]

R/Hr might be Harry's sidekicks, but when you break down who's the lead male and who's the lead female, it's Harry & Hermione.
She only garners this status because she is a female. If Harry had two male best friends, then Harry would be the lead and his two best friends would be sidekicks. Supporting leads. I don't know. Hermione is the "female lead" because she's a female, not because she's more important than Ron.

I think you're misunderstanding what i'm speaking of as being a symbol. A symbol in this context is a creature, name or article that has a reference to some mythical meaning. This is why i say that the Hippogriff is a symbol and trampled is not. The Hippogriff is a creature pulled out of Greek mythology that symbolises eros(romantic) love. Trampled on the other hand, is nothing but a word that means to pretty much walk or run over something.

I understand what you mean by the word "symbol." However, I'm arguing that things/words can be read figuratively/subtextually/symbolically as well. Yes, OK, creatures as symbols, the A on Hester Prynne's dress from The Scarlet Letter is a symbol, the Mississippi River from Huck Finn is a symbol...OK, I understand that objects are symbols. I'm just saying that not all words can be taken literally, either. So if we can extend our minds to believe that certain objects/creatures in the books are symbols, why can't we read the text and interpret figurative meanings of the words?

[Daveydee]

I take the offer when the forum mostly about H/Hr and H/R. As I offer more to H/Hr than to most ship, I decide to join. The problem with H/G is simply that it has not much to talking about. However, as you are confuse and I believe a solo status may better suit me, I will hand in my resignation today.
No please - not on my account, I hope. I mean if that's your conviction you should stand by it.

To H/Hr shipmate, I believe a solo status may be suit me slightly better. However, my resignation will by no mean change any of my stand. I simply need to make my stand clearer.

I believe JKR have drop hints on R/Hr, H/Hr, H/G, R/L and G/N. Other than R/Hr, I have no problem with any other pairings. Upon exam my own posts, I believe I am slight favor toward H/Hr.
But IF you believe JK has dropped hints at R/Hr as well as the other ships which you have variously supported, why are you so vehemently opposed to R/Hr. I mean you clearly see that hints have been dropped in that direction. Is it a personal thing?

[Sirius83]

Well i'm not opposed to looking at the words having subtextual meanings, but i'm going to have to see where JKR has done this in the past. We know for a fact JKR uses symbolism in her creatures and the like, but what about her words? The reason i'm sticking to the creatures one is that this is the one that has been proven time and time again. You're just saying the words could have other meanings as well, but i've been saying JKR has in many instances done it with animals, names and the like and have it proven true.

[Mad Eye Mike]

She only garners this status because she is a female. If Harry had two male best friends, then Harry would be the lead and his two best friends would be sidekicks. Supporting leads. I don't know. Hermione is the "female lead" because she's a female, not because she's more important than Ron.


Which still makes Hermione the lead female. And Hermione is more important than Ron. Have you ever heard JKR say Harry needs Ron badly? No and there's a good reason for that.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Oh yeah, and I guess that a snowflake can melt in 30 seconds in a heated room, etc. But if Hermione's hair is laden with snowflakes, from the time it takes her to have a brief conversation with Ron to the time she busts in on Harry, I don't think it could all melt away. By the way, that conversation I typed out would only take about 15-20 seconds. So give her 10 more to dash up the stairs, and voila -- 30-35 seconds. She's had a conversation with Ron, her cheeks are still pink because the house isn't blazingly hot, and the snow hasn't all melted from her hair.

You don't dash in 10 seconds three floors steps up this need 30 seconds at least.
About this idea that Hermione did speak with Ron offstage thats rather unlogical. She didn't need to speak with Ron because she did already know that Mr. Weasley is allright.
He was attacked at night and in the morning he was alright again. At this very moment Hermione might have get that all Weasleys include Harry weren't at Hogwarts. So she might gone to Mcgonagall or she did go to Hermione. Both go to Dumbledore. He explain what did happen and that Mr. Weasley is going to be okay. Let say it was at the time as Phineas did tell Harry this message. So its quiet possible that on the other end in Dumbledores office was Hermione and did get what Phineas answered to Dumbledore.

The only thing which is possible that Hermione said at first as Mrs. Weasley opened or Ron or Ginny the door was "Where is Harry?!" than Ron and Ginny are answering as all go the steps up. Tell her, he is hidding in Buckbeaks room and Mrs. Weasley tell her that in this Ron's room is a fire and sandwiches and they would wait there. Thats all thats already your 30 seconds speach. For anything else isn't a reason to ask or to answer because she know it already.

[haycheng]

Do worry about it, DD. I perfer to post my real location anyway. As you may able to tell by my screen name, I perfer post real data. Beside there is always a possible I would write something again H/Hr(though I see no reason to as R/Hr provide too many and some I consider extreme arguement)
To Mike, the location would not mean much. It is the post that count. I may change my sig. to show other more clear how I stand. I usually only post here anyway.
PS: Beside I hate on the same ship with demon and creepy thing.

[Mad-I Moody]

a whole essay where he showed that Ron isn't there as COS, PoA, GoF and OotP had the climax but yet you say Ron isn't seperated to H/Hr.

OK, so I don't get how Ron being absent from the climaxes of these books separates him from both Harry AND Hermione. After all:

Ron and Hermione go with Harry as far as they can in PS/SS climax. Ron sacrifices himself for Harry, Hermione solves a riddle. H/R/Hr all present.

Ron goes with Harry as far as he can into the Chamber during the CoS climax. Hermione is petrified, and isn't there at all, but would be if she could. H/R present

In PoA, Ron is incapacitated in the hospital wing, and Hermione goes with Harry to save Sirius. This is the only instance in which Hermione and Harry are truly separate from Ron during the climax of a book. However, we all know that if Ron were capable of going, he would have gone with them. H/Hr present.

In GoF, neither Hermione nor Ron are with Harry during the climax. However, they are together while Harry is battling Lord Voldything. H is alone.

In OotP, Ron and Hermione are both with Harry in the Department of Mysteries. H/R/Hr present.

Ok, so now onto the animal/symbolism thing. Yes, she does use animals as symbols quite often. However, we can note that
1. The symbols mentioned by F.P. are, in fact, quite easy to discern. It doesn't take a knowledge of Mythological creatures to note that Peter's Animagus form is a rat, and he "ratted out" the Potters. Sirius' Animagus form is a dog, and he is loyal, like a dog.
2. If all of these animals have symbolic meaning, then the other animals must, too -- I mean, if we are to assume that simply because JKR uses animal symbolism a lot that it must apply to Buckbeak as well. So, Prongs -- ok, I guess a stag could represent nobility. Maybe something else? James was noble, we all hope -- but that Pensieve flashback of Snape's certainly undermines that theory.
What about the badger for Hufflepuff? And the eagle for Ravenclaw? (Is it an eagle? I can't remember). If the Ravenclaws are supposed to be so wise, I would think that their symbol would be an owl, noted in mythology and history as wise.

As for the badger, I can't even begin to speculate.

Anyway, my point being that there is no way to know what is a symbol and what is not. So until we get our paws on Books 6 and 7, the debate will continue...

[GilyAnn]

R/Hr might be Harry's sidekicks, but when you break down who's the lead male and who's the lead female, it's Harry & Hermione.


Yes in the H/Hr point of view. And that is understanble. Everyone is entitle to their opinion.

Unless it's an ensemble (which HP is not), they're all supporting characters to some degree as ultimately, it's Harry's story. However, by nature of being the main girl in Harry's life for the past 5 years, Hermione is the lead female character in the books. She's not some supporting player who just hangs around the star. An example of a supporting character would be Neville, Fred, George, Etc. Until OotP, Neville was never important - not in Harry's life and not in the books. Hermione is important in both, that make her the lead female.

Hermione is important but she is one of the central characters. Sirius was also one of the Central characters. Again if it's your perspective that she is central is your opinion and you are entitled too but to me she isn't the lead she is one of the centrals.

Now you say Hermione is. so which is it?


Sorry my bad. Hermione is the a key student but neither Ron or Harry are the other ket student.

Sorry, but I'm now little bit behind the light. If I remember right did Mad eye Mike wrote a whole essay where he showed that Ron isn't there as COS, PoA, GoF and OotP had the climax but yet you say Ron isn't seperated to H/Hr. Now you say that because Hermione and Ron were knocked out like luna and Ginny that this show how the trio seperate in a way that this make H/G and R/Hr possible. This is slightly distrupting me now because you seems to disagree yourself.


Let's recapture past post so you catch up to the theme. Unlike other series JKR has portrait this characters to be growing. In other words time doesn't stand still in the series. When characters come of age they display diffent feelings and they unavoidable come into their own. Being their whole self aside from his friends. I believe that one of the purposes of the many of the DoM scene was to separate Harry from the Trio. Coming of age will mean that the Trio will began to separate. They will be friends just not the same that they were before. Ron was not separate it from harry or hermione. They are the same friends but the distanse will probably beging in the next books and Harry will be the one that starts it.

You right he don't do it but this is the clue. No, normal reader would in PoA get that at the very moment as H/Hr/R were going under the cloak through the entrance hall that at the same time were Futur H/Hr running across the hall and the present Hermione did hear this running.
Like no normal reader wouldn't get the clue that not Snape was jinxing Potter but it was Quirell. Or much better that In COS Ginny did behaive strange because she has something with the petriefied students to do.
One more or that Hermione dos TimeTravel because she was on two places at once. So why bring this hints in a book if the most reader don't get it? So I can probably say that somewhere in book6 or seven if Harry has his NEWTs in Hagrids class he might write a essay about hippogriffs and there he write its a simbole of true love at this moment the reader hit his very head.


So if no normal reader will get that. They will be cheated and jkr isn't trying to cheat anyone. She wants you to find the clues so you won't feel cheated. Also the symbolism of love was not in Fantastical beast and where to find them. Weren't hipograffs study in PoA? I believe it was Hagrid that showed it ???? I think it was that way that Malfoy's go hurt or something.

Gily Ann

[haycheng]

To GilyAnn
I do not want to argue the "leading Female" idea. However, Hermione is indeed taking more screentime than anyone other than harry. Hermione is also indeed the female character that Harry has deepest bond. She is important to harry ever you consider the bond is a sister/bother.

Key Student: I need some help on the idea of "Key". If you consider someone who shins in the school, Harry is a important figure. He is one of the best seeker, best student in DADA. Didn't DD wants to give him the perfectship also? Key does not always mean knowledge. Many people become important without do very well in classes.

On Trio seperation: Remember the group eventually seperate into two before Hermione is down. Nervill, Harry and Hermione is in the same group.

[FlyingPhoenix]

So if no normal reader will get that. They will be cheated and jkr isn't trying to cheat anyone. She wants you to find the clues so you won't feel cheated. Also the symbolism of love was not in Fantastical beast and where to find them. Weren't hipograffs study in PoA? I believe it was Hagrid that showed it ???? I think it was that way that Malfoy's go hurt or something.

The Polijuice was stuff from COS(2th year) many parts of the OWL were in the books earlier why shouldn't Hagrid bring the hippogriffs into the NEWTs?

Now I repost Mike's essay. I hope you don't mind:

JKR has filled her Harry Potter series with many themes, symbolisms and subtleties. In this essay, I will focus on a particularly fascinating theme that has appeared in every one of the five books to date. Although the facts are canon-based, theories as to how they’ll play out are purely my speculation.



Harry + Hermione – Ron

The following essay will illustrate how Harry and Hermione always experience the most crucial and perilous situations together without Ron. It will lay bare how H/Hr always end up sharing an intense emotional encounter – alone - and how that strengthens the bond between them. It will show Ron’s presence being lessened more and more with each passing book (during those vital moments); how we’re being weaned off him slowly; why R/Hr aren’t being set-up as a couple and ultimately, how H/Hr are.


Philosopher’s Stone/Sorcerer’s Stone:

The trio’s very first adventure established what was to come in later books. After Ron’s eliminated from the chess match, H/Hr continued forward to the last test – potions. Choosing the right potion would allow H/Hr to go forward and back respectively; choosing the wrong potion would kill them - pretty stressful stuff for a couple of eleven year olds. Hermione solved the test herself and before being forced to leave Harry, her lip trembled, she threw herself onto him, hugged him and finally allowed her emotional wall come down (calling Harry a great wizard, etc). Now if the characters had been older, like 18 instead of 11, this would've been a very romantic moment between them. The scene of a girl (near tears) throwing herself onto a boy and embracing him before he sets off to possibly face his death evokes some very powerful imagery. Now, if JKR has been setting up R/Hr from the beginning (as some r/hr shippers say), why didn’t she have Hermione stay behind to take care of Ron while Harry moved forward by himself? For the first time, H/Hr were given the spotlight alone, together to face a perilous circumstance.

Note #1 - This is the first time Ron was separated from H/Hr but it was cleverly disguised as the classic ‘Heroes Best Friend Sacrifices Himself’ scene. However, take notice of how neither Harry nor Hermione felt the need to check on Ron who sacrificed himself. Harry even had to convince himself Ron was okay because he wasn’t really sure if Ron was dead or not. Literally and symbolically, H/Hr looked back at Ron while they continued forward together.

Note #2 – Take a closer look at the pieces each of the trio replaces and play as during the chess game. Ron’s a Knight, Hermione’s a Rook and Harry’s a Bishop.

The Knight (Ron) moves in an ‘L’ shape in any direction. While the Rook and Bishop can move freely around the board (in their respective directions), the Knight is limited to only two square jumps - one forward, one diagonal. This parallels Ron’s place in the trio as he’s also limited in how far his abilities will take him.

The Rook (Hermione) moves horizontally and vertically any number of squares forwards and backwards. Incidentally, this powerful piece is the only one that can perform the ‘Castling’ maneuver – a move that’s sole purpose is to protect the King from harm (Hermione protects Harry).

The Bishop (Harry) moves diagonally any number of squares forward or backwards. By nature of its movements, the Bishop is the perfect companion piece to the Rook. Together they can cover the entire length of the board and all squares.

Now I just want to point out one last piece – The Queen. This is the most powerful piece in the game as it can move horizontally, vertically, diagonally, forwards and backwards any number of squares. The Queen is basically the Rook (Hermione) and Bishop (Harry) combined into one piece. Something else to keep in mind - it was the Queen that took Ron out of the game.


Chamber of Secrets:

This was a key book in the development of Harry and Hermione’s relationship as two very big things happened. One: while figuring out the mysteries of the chamber, H/Hr began to intellectually separate themselves from Ron (as well as everyone else). Two: they began to think along the same wavelength thus becoming ‘mentally in tune’ with one another. Read books 2-5 carefully and you’ll see many instances where Harry and Hermione seemed to know what the other was thinking while Ron was lost. Its not that Ron is stupid, he’s just not on the level of H/Hr (no one is). Jointly, H/Hr were able to piece together the mystery involving Tom Riddle, the chamber, the diary and the basilisk. Here’s where we first saw Ron wasn’t on the same level as H/Hr because as they continued to slowly put together the puzzle, Ron was more and more baffled as to what was going on. He did contribute that he saw Riddle’s name on a trophy, but that was more remembering something rather than figuring it out. At the end, Ron was even left behind (physically) with Lockhart when he and Harry reached the area near the chamber. Couldn’t JKR have involved Ron a little more? Maybe figure out at least one piece of the puzzle? Perhaps help Harry in a more significant way in the chamber? It was Ron’s sister (Ginny) trapped down there and dying after all. In reality it was Hermione who laid out all the clues and all Harry had to do was connect the dots. Now Ron had his moments with the Ford Anglia, providing some knowledge of the wizard world and such, but nothing that really pertained to the overall plot. In that particular aspect, he was no help. JKR made something perfectly clear with this book and that was when Hermione isn’t with Harry in some form, he’s going to have to continue on alone. After Hermione was petrified, Harry was alone in every way that mattered.

Note #3 – During the last night in the Great Hall, the text (clearly from Harry’s POV) described how Hermione ran towards him screaming “You did it! You solved it!”. Notice how JKR didn’t include Ron by having Hermione run towards both boys or by saying something like “You both solved it!” (HP2:S:H:18:339)


Prisoner of Azkaban:

This may be the quintessential H/Hr moment of the series thus far. It contains everything – emotion, fear, friendship and symbolism all rolled into one extended sequence. This was the book (until OotP) where Ron’s lack of importance and presence in critical situations was most evident. Beginning with Dumbledore telling Hermione ”Three turns should do it”, H/Hr proceed to go on an incredible adventure together which completely dominated the tale from that point on. For the third straight time, JKR completely removed Ron rather than finding a way to involve him. Once again, Ron didn’t get to share in the terrifying and jubilant moments H/Hr experienced together. First H/Hr traveled back in time to save Buckbeat from execution. Then they spent three hours alone together in the woods talking quietly. Then they watch as the situation from earlier when Pettigrew got away played out before them. Then Harry confided in Hermione he thought he saw his father (something Harry was incredibly embarrassed about admitting by the way). Then Harry saved himself, Sirius, Ron and Hermione from the Dementors when he finally produced a Patronus. Finally, it was H/Hr who took a ride on a Hippogriff to save Sirius. In the end, after all was said and done, it was Harry and Hermione whom saved the day, once again, without Ron.

Note #4 – Did you know the Hippogriff represents love in mythology? Think of the imagery and literary theme that JKR presented by having Harry and Hermione ride on it to save the day. In terms of symbolism, it doesn’t get any more fairy tale and romantic than that.

To add to that, I’ve heard some r/hr shippers say the Hippogriff in fact symbolizes ‘Impossible Love’ and not love. I doubt it’s true but in the interest of interpretation, let's just say it is. That would mean Harry and Hermione are on a symbol of ‘impossible love' when Hermione says "I don't like this". Taken sub-textually, Hermione didn't like the idea of her and Harry's love being impossible. In fact, she wants it to happen.


Goblet of Fire:

When Harry lost Ron’s friendship, the schools support and encountered the negative side of fame for the first time in his life, Hermione stood by him. When the public (and Molly) began targeting Hermione for supposedly playing with Harry and Krum’s hearts, Harry stood by her. It was a curious bit of writing by JKR to make it so when H/Hr finally experienced rumors, innuendo and negative press for the first time in their lives, all they had were each other to lean on for emotional support. Ron was still too bitter towards Harry and too busy giving Hermione a hard time about Krum to be an effective friend to either of them. Also noteworthy is how JKR wrote it so H/Hr practiced the summoning charm alone together – the very spell which helped save Harry’s life later. As GoF went on, H/Hr grew closer and the gap that already separated them from everyone else was widened. Emotionally, intellectually and magically, Harry and Hermione continued progressing together forward while Ron lagged behind yet again. With all the focus on the Yule Ball and dating, one of the key aspects often overlooked is how JKR yet again divided the trio during a time of stress. While Ron was off losing control of his emotions, JKR proceeded to develop the bond between H/Hr to the point where it became absolute.

Note #5 – When writing down predictions for his future, Ron jokingly says he’ll be trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff. Symbolically speaking, does this mean he’ll be crushed by love? (HP4:S:H:14:223)

Note #6 – In the time she spent with Krum, Hermione talked about Harry so much that Krum suspected there was something more going on between H/Hr than friendship. One of the classic examples of having subconscious feelings for someone is when you talk about them non-stop to other people.

Note #7 – No matter how much hate mail she received or taunts she endured, Hermione never denied the rumors she was Harry’s girlfriend. Harry denied it, but not Hermione.

Note #8 – At one point, Ron actually asked Hermione if she was brewing love potions (HP4:S:H:27:513). Is it possible Ron himself had noticed the closeness between H/Hr? Surely as part of the trio, Ron would have known if there was anything going on between them wouldn’t he? Plus the fact he knew Rita Skeeter was just trying to get back at Hermione by printing lies so why did he ask such a question?


Order of the Phoenix:

There are three – count ‘em – three separate occasions in OotP where Harry and Hermione go on together without Ron.

A. With Hagrid to see Grawp
B. Leading Umbridge to the Centaurs
C. In the Department of Mysteries

A. In the first instance, JKR had Harry and Hermione go with Hagrid to see Grawp. Now, what’s interesting was how this took place during Ron’s big moment. That was the day Ron helped Griffindor win the Quidditch Cup and it was written to have both Harry and Hermione miss it. I can totally understand why Hagrid went to get Harry, but did Hermione really need to go as well? Especially since it would have the perfect opportunity to have her stay behind and watch the guy she’s supposedly in love with play in an important game. If R/Hr are being set-up to be together, why didn’t JKR have Harry go on alone with Hagrid while Hermione stood behind to watch Ron win the cup? Why not showcase what could’ve been a sweet R/Hr moment? Harry could’ve gone with Hagrid, seen Grawp and returned to see Hermione celebrating with Ron; and yet, it didn’t happen. Instead we were given another intense emotional experience for H/Hr to share together without Ron. And don’t think Hermione had to go just so she could learn about the Centaurs because she didn’t. Point ‘B’ below explains why.

Note #9 – The text describes a shaking and whimpering Hermione clinging to Harry as he protects her from Grawp’s outstretched hand. Harry protected Hermione number one.


B. In the next example, JKR had Harry, Hermione and Umbridge enter the forest to go look for Dumbledore’s ‘weapon’. What followed was another potentially fatal situation for H/Hr and Ron was nowhere to be found – this time he was bound and gagged on the floor in Umbridge’s office. True he wasn’t the only one as Neville, Ginny and Luna were also left behind, but none of them are as important as Ron are they? Ginny and Luna haven’t been in all five books and Neville has never really been important to the plot until now. Point is, they’re not part of the trio - Ron is. Yet, it’s Harry and Hermione alone who shared another intense emotional experience under not only the threat of Umbridge, but the Centaurs as well. Couldn’t JKR have found a way for Ron to play a part in this? Also, since Harry had learned about the Centaurs disdain for humans earlier, couldn’t he have lured Umbridge into the forest alone? Hermione could’ve stood behind with the others and the plot would not have been affected in any way. No, it was written so that H/Hr went on together and Ron showed up with Ginny, Neville and Luna well after everything was over.

Note #10 – When the Centaurs attack Umbridge, Harry grabs Hermione and pulls her down to the ground. JKR could’ve simply written it to have H/Hr duck for cover at the same time, but she doesn’t. Harry protected Hermione number two.


C. The Department of Mysteries is the last of the three instances where Harry and Hermione proceeded without Ron. When running away from the DE’s, the six kids split up into two groups of three. Now what’s interesting here is JKR didn’t split the trio away from the new kids, no instead she split up the trio. Now with six kids, there were any number of pairings JKR could’ve used and yet, she still kept H/Hr together. What’s even more interesting (for you H/G shippers) is that it was the perfect opportunity for Ginny to take center stage and be showcased as Harry’s future partner in crime so to speak, but it didn’t happen. Nor was it written to have R/Hr work together as a finely tuned team. Instead JKR gave us yet another life-threatening situation for H/Hr to work together to survive through. When Ron disappeared, he remained missing in action for quite a while and when he finally reappeared, he had already been rendered useless. Consequently, he almost got himself killed when he released a brain from its tank and was nearly strangled by its thoughts. You truly have to ask yourself why JKR kept H/Hr together when she had so many possible (and intriguing) pairings at her disposal.

Note #11 – Wasn’t it rather symbolic that Ron (who is viewed upon as the comic relief of the trio) was incapacitated by some sort of laughing spell and then began fighting with a brain (Hermione?) which began suffocating him? Was Ginny’s line - “Harry, it’ll suffocate him!” - a symbolic text reference? Does it mean Ron’s comedic persona would suffer in a relationship with Hermione? (HP5:S:H:35:798)

Note #12 – When everyone first ran from the DE’s, Harry reached back and grabbed for Hermione’s robes to drag her forward. Interesting how it wasn’t written for him to grab for Ginny or to have Ron grab for Hermione. Instinctively, subconsciously, the one Harry reached out to grab and protect was Hermione. There are five other people Harry could’ve grabbed (including his supposed intended Ginny), and yet, JKR had him reach for Hermione. Harry protected Hermione number three.

Note #13 – In each scene where H/Hr faced danger alone in OotP, Harry physically protected Hermione. Is this evidence of romance between the two? No; I’m just pointing something out.


Now if this had only happened once or twice in five books then I could easily write it off as coincidence. In literature however, patterns, themes and symbolism are relevant and with someone like JKR who uses all three, you have to look closely. What is JKR hoping to establish by constantly having H/Hr bond without Ron? Regardless of whether the threat was an emotional or physical one, Harry and Hermione continue to experience and share all these moments together. Why isn’t Ron included?

Now assuming the trio survives their seventh year, don’t you think Ron is going to feel left out? Try to imagine being Ron for a second. It's after you’ve graduated Hogwarts and Voldemort has been defeated. Every wizard and witch in the world is going to want to talk to the people who helped bring him down. Harry will be bigger than a legend, so will Hermione and everyone else who played a part. However, considering it was always H/Hr together (in some form) who defeated Voldemort and his DE’s time and time again, it’ll be H/Hr who’ll be in demand for interviews, discussions, teaching posts, etc. Yes Ron did play part (a small one) in some of these adventures, but at a certain point, he won’t be able to talk anymore because he wasn’t there to share in the full experience of them with H/Hr.

Now can you imagine Ron dating Hermione and she’s always being asked to do a joint interview with Harry talking about all the times they worked together to triumph over Voldemort? How do you think Ron is going to feel about that? He might mature as he gets older but eventually, this will get to him. No significant other likes to see his or her partner share extraordinary experiences with someone else. Worst of all for Ron, there’s no one to blame. Harry’s not at fault, Hermione’s not at fault and neither is Ron. He wasn’t there to share in what H/Hr went through and that’s just the way it was. I can just see a day in the future where the three of them do an interview with the Daily Prophet and it goes something like this:


Reporter: So, tell us how you first defeated Voldemort’s plan for returning.
Harry: Well, we found out he was after the Sorcerer’s Stone.
Hermione: Yeah, it was hidden at Hogwarts.
Reporter: Rumor has it the stone was well guarded. How did you three get to it?
Harry: Well, we had to pass four test in order to get to the stone.
Reporter: What kind of tests?
Hermione: Herbology, Charms, Transfiguration and Potions.
Harry: If it wasn’t for Hermione, I never would’ve gotten pass the potions test. See, there were only two correct choices. One allowed you to move forward, the other allowed to go back.
Reporter: Only two? So how did you get back Ron?
Ron: Oh, um…I got knocked out in chess game before that.
Reporter: I see. So Harry, tell us about the Chamber in your second year, legend has it you took on a Basilisk all by yourself.
Harry: Well, I never would’ve found it if it weren’t for Hermione. She’s the one who figured out it was traveling through the pipes.
Reporter: Really Miss Granger?
Hermione: Well, I only helped, it was Harry who figured out where the chamber entrance was, took on Riddle solo and saved Ginny.
Reporter: Mr. Weasley, where were you?
Ron: I went with Harry into the chamber but we got separated when the roof caved in so I got stuck behind with Prof Lockhart.
Reporter: I see. Now Harry, tell us about your third year when you took on a heap of Dementors.
Harry: Well, I owe everything to Professor Lupin. He’s the one who taught me how to produce a Patronus.
Reporter: But didn’t you and Miss Granger break wizard law and travel back in time?
Harry: Um, yeah we did. See, Hermione had this Time Turner that Professor McGonagall gave her because she was taking so many classes that year. It allowed us to travel back, save both a Hippogriff named Buckbeat and my late Godfather Sirius Black from execution as well as our past selves.
Reporter: Hermione, you must’ve been one responsible 13 year old to be given a time turner?
Hermione: Well, Professor McGonagall always trusted in me so yeah, I guess.
Reporter: Mr. Weasley, what was it like to travel back in time?
Ron: Oh well, uh…I had my leg broken and was knocked out in the hospital when all this happened so I didn’t get to go.
Reporter: I see. Well Harry, what about the night when Voldemort returned in your forth year. Tell us, how did you escape him and all those DE’s?
Harry: Well it’s like I’ve said many times before, I used the Accio charm to summon the portkey over to me and that’s how I got away.
Reporter: Good thing you paid attention in Charms class huh?
Harry: Actually, it was Hermione who taught me that spell.
Reporter: Is that so Miss Granger?
Hermione: Well yes you see. I originally taught it to Harry so he could get pass the first task in the TWT which involved fire-breathing dragons. He needed a spell that would allow him to summon his Firebolt broomstick.
Reporter: Ah I see, I see. So tell us Ron, what was it like helping teach Harry the summoning spell? Was he a quick learner?
Ron: Actually, at that time Harry and I had a falling out and weren’t speaking to each other so I wouldn’t know.
Reporter: I see. Anyway Harry, the night the world found out Voldemort returned, tell us, how did you and your friends ever escape from Delores Umbridge?
Harry: Well, actually, it was all Hermione’s brilliant plan.
Reporter: Oh really? Tell us Miss Granger, how did you escape from that awful woman?
Hermione: Well I remember she went to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry and I just couldn’t let that happen, so I lied and told her we were keeping a weapon for Professor Dumbledore hidden in the forest.
Reporter: Why did you say that?
Hermione: Well, earlier we had been in the forest when we discovered the Centaurs no longer wanted humans in there. So I figured if we went deep enough into the woods, they’d drive Umbridge away for us.
Reporter: That was smart. But wait, why were you in the forbidden forest?
Harry: Hagrid took us there to meet his brother Grawp and that’s when we learned the Centaurs were angry with humans.
Reporter: Interesting. And what was Grawp like Mr. Weasley?
Ron: Um, actually, I was playing in a Quidditch match. I didn’t go with them to met Hagrid’s brother.
Reporter: I see, so it was just you and Hermione alone Harry?
Harry: And Hagrid.
Reporter: Yes of course, and Hagrid. So getting back to that night, did your plan work Miss Granger? Did the Centaurs drive Umbridge away?
Hermione: Oh yes they did, but they almost killed us as well.
Reporter: Heavens! Were you scared?
Hermione: Oh goodness yes! I had no idea what to say.
Reporter: Harry?
Harry: Yeah, I was scared too.
Reporter: And what about you Ron?
Ron: Er…I wasn’t there with them.
Reporter: Oh no? where were you?
Ron: I was back in Umbridge’s office gagged and tied up on the floor.
Reporter: I see. Well, thank you three for your time.


You see what I’m talking about? If JKR stays with this theme of Ron being separated, he’ll never truly be able to share in Harry and Hermione’s experiences. H/Hr will forever be linked – especially if they succeed in taking down Voldemort. Unless JKR makes Ron a big time hero in the next two books (which would be stupid but not totally out of the question considering the whole ‘prefect’ nonsense in OotP), he’s always going to be the third wheel. Now I know what you some of you r/hr shippers are saying “Well, a tricycle has three wheels and that’s what the trio is.” That analogy doesn’t apply to the trio and I’ll explain why. On a tricycle, you usually have one big front wheel (Harry) and two supporting wheels (R/Hr). If any of the wheels break off, the tricycle collapses and ceases to function. In the above examples, when Ron broke off, H/Hr continued just fine. They were still able to peddle forward without the third wheel. What kind of tricycle only needs two wheels? Well the answer isn’t a tricycle at all, it’s a bicycle.

For those of you now saying ”Oh, but I’ve seen three wheeled bicycles.” Yeah, but on those bikes, all the wheels are equally important. That’s not the case with the trio. Though Harry is the star of the books, within them, Hermione is every bit his equal as a character and student. Even JKR has said ‘Harry needs Hermione badly’. Ron is neither the star nor equal as a character, student, in ability, etc. For those of you thinking the trio’s more like a triangle, once again it doesn’t apply. When was the last time you saw a two-sided triangle? You know what a triangle is with on side missing? A right angle. For every ‘Tri’ analogy you attempt to apply to the trio it doesn’t work. Why? Simple. When something needs three pieces to work, eliminating any one of those pieces would cause the entire mechanism to crumble. In the above examples, H/Hr did not stop functioning. As a matter of fact, they continued just fine.

The fact of the matter is this, in every book, JKR has continued this pattern of turning the trio of H/Hr/R into the couple of H/Hr. When presented with every opportunity to truly show off some great R/Hr or H/G moment, interaction and/or bonding moment, JKR hasn’t taken it. Now ask yourself, why hasn’t she? JKR has said she wants to write her characters realistically. Now in real life, when two people go through an intense emotional experience together, they usually form a bond in some way. It doesn’t necessarily always lead to romance but a bond is formed nonetheless. Just look at all Harry/Hermione have been through. Now look at what Harry/Ron have been through. Now look at what Ron/Hermione have been through. Now look at what Harry/Ginny have been through. Doesn’t even come close does it? JKR has written Harry and Hermione so far ahead of everyone else that at this point, there is no other suitable partner for them.

I’m sorry to all other shippers out there, but for true love to happen and survive, a solid foundation must first be set. Ginny just really ‘developed’ in book 5 – maybe not in your personal view, but in Harry’s and his view is the only one that matters. He’s never noticed Ginny before, he hasn’t gone through anything with her (Chamber doesn’t count as she was knocked out. She wasn’t awake helping him fight the Basilisk or Riddle) and he doesn’t have any type of bond or shared experience with her. OotP confirms this as even after Ginny made her comment about being possessed, Harry didn’t go and talk to her about what she experienced or what it was like. Now right there was an absolute perfect – and I mean PERFECT - opportunity for some H/G bonding and it didn’t occur.

Hermione needs an equal partner and unfortunately, Ron is not that person. In no way shape or form is he on Hermione’s level. Not in maturity, intellect or magical ability. To date Ron would be a step down for Hermione. Honestly, he doesn’t accept Hermione for who she is nor does he respect what she believes in (S.P.E.W). He snaps at her for no reason (Is corresponding with Krum via owl post a crime?) and his normal attitude towards her is rude (Hermione clearly says so in OotP – HP5:S:H:14:300). What incentive would a girl like Hermione – smart, beautiful and strong – have in dating a guy like Ron? In every way imaginable, she exceeds him and as we see in OotP, the only thing they share is time waiting for Harry. This isn’t meant as Ron bashing, but the hard truth is that JKR has simply not written Ron to be Hermione’s equal.

Ron represents the normal kid in the trio and everyone acknowledges that. Problem is, JKR has made him so normal, he’s almost unimportant now as OotP demonstrated. Not unimportant to the trio dynamic in terms of friendship, but in what he adds to the overall plotline in the war with Voldemort. Harry and Hermione are equal in just about everything – magic ability, intellect and experience. If they were to pair up in a contest against other students, there’s no one their age that can match up against them. Hell, H/Hr have even outsmarted DE’s – much less regular wizards. JK Rowling has written the H/Hr relationship in such a way that realistically, they’ll never be emotionally satisfied with anyone else. In every way possible; in every way that matters and in every sense of the word, Harry Potter and Hermione Granger were literally made for each other.

Written by Mad Eye Mike

Thats where I get that and I might be wrong but some of you might not read this but still its the same as if you say R/Hr seperate from Harry because they grow up.
As if Hermione would let him. She did through 5 book interfering in Harrys live and now where the climax is in sight she steps aside and say now is it Ginnys part? This won't and I can't buy it.

[Mad-I Moody]

Which still makes Hermione the lead female. And Hermione is more important than Ron. Have you ever heard JKR say Harry needs Ron badly? No and there's a good reason for that.
I really don't understand how it can be argued that Harry DOESN'T need Ron. I mean, yeah, he needs Hermione, but he needs Ron, too. Without Ron, there's no balance. When Hermione is your best friend, there is a lot less fun, and laughter and more time spent in the library, remember? He needs Ron's help in many instances -- he takes Ron into Aragog's den, Ron and his brothers resuce him from the Dursleys, Ron goes with him into the Chamber, Ron sacrifices himself so that Harry can go ahead to the Sorcerer's Stone, Ron is his confidant (yeah, so is Hr, but he DOES tell Ron first about Umbridge's detentions), Ron is the one the merpeople take into the lake, NOT Hermione, Ron is his pal, one of his TWO best friends in the world, the guy who understands many of the needs Hermione misses. So he needs BOTH of them. Not just Hermione.

You don't dash in 10 seconds three floors steps up this need 30 seconds at least.
About this idea that Hermione did speak with Ron offstage thats rather unlogical. She didn't need to speak with Ron because she did already know that Mr. Weasley is allright.
He was attacked at night and in the morning he was alright again. At this very moment Hermione might have get that all Weasleys include Harry weren't at Hogwarts. So she might gone to Mcgonagall or she did go to Hermione. Both go to Dumbledore. He explain what did happen and that Mr. Weasley is going to be okay. Let say it was at the time as Phineas did tell Harry this message. So its quiet possible that on the other end in Dumbledores office was Hermione and did get what Phineas answered to Dumbledore.

The only thing which is possible that Hermione said at first as Mrs. Weasley opened or Ron or Ginny the door was "Where is Harry?!" than Ron and Ginny are answering as all go the steps up. Tell her, he is hidding in Buckbeaks room and Mrs. Weasley tell her that in this Ron's room is a fire and sandwiches and they would wait there. Thats all thats already your 30 seconds speach. For anything else isn't a reason to ask or to answer because she know it already.

OK, so let us say that Dumbledore told Hermione everything about Harry's dream, Mr. Weasley (including that he's going to be OK), and all that. So Hermione dashes off to 12 GP. A Weasley answers the door -- it doesn't really matter which one. Hermione isn't so rude that, even if she DID have feelings for Harry (which she doesn't ;) ), she wouldn't at least say "Hey --insert name of Weasley here-- Dumbledore told me about your Dad. Are you OK?"
Weasley: Yeah. Harry's a real mess, though.
Hr: Yeah, DD told me. He said Harry won't talk to anyone. Where is he?
Weasley: Upstairs with Buckbeak.

OK, so 10-15 seconds with that dialogue. And it doesn't take 10 whole seconds to run up a flight of stairs. My bedroom is on the second story and, though I could time it precisely if you'd like, I can assure you that it doesn't take more than 5 seconds to dash up the stairs. If Hermione is urgently wanted to speak with Harry, then she'll probably run up the stairs, which means it would take her from 15-25 seconds to scale 3 flights. Even if she did have a 10-15 second conversation with a Weasley downstairs, that would put her in the range of 25-45 seconds. Not enough time for all of the snow to melt -- maybe some, but not all.

Besides, this is just silly. We DON'T KNOW what happened between the time Hr gets to 12GP and gets to Harry's room. We don't even know for sure what Dumbledore did or did not tell Hermione regarding Mr. Weasley and Harry. This is all just speculation, which can be twisted to fit whichever ship you happen to be on. My scenario is just as unlikely/likely (however you want to look at it) as Hermione getting to 12GP and completely blowing off the Weasleys (who have just suffered great personal/emotional difficulites) and only focusing on Harry.

[AvadaKedavra]

Hey you all.

Absolutely right – NEVER let it be said again that Ron's feelings are no more than a transient crush. It has moved from a crush to genuine and deeper feelings. Just the way relationships in the real world develop, in fact.

Indeed. Nicely put Davydee.

Gily Ann has nicely expressed Ron's reaction to the kiss, which is the reason why I think any person taking the line of argument that Ron may not like Hermione in "that way" is being really ridlicious and denying beautiful canon, in other words, doing a "fudge". :D

Oh, and take many :clap:, GilyAnn! You have been in the "zone" lately, my fellow shipper!

she is rather less effective in connecting with him on a day to day basis in mundane matters when the future of wizard-kind is not at stake.

And allow me to point out that Ron is excellent at this. He far outstrips Hermione at this. In fact, Hermione tends to take those mundane matters "seriously", and Ron takes them with a dose of humour. Another reason why I think Ron is (marginally) a better friend than Hermione. (Mind you, this really is not a line of argument, it's just my honest opinion. There's not much in it, really, so you could assume that R/Hr are Harry's equal best friends, but I am being honest here.)

a falling out between Harry and Hermione over Luna Lovegood. Harry has much empathy with Luna, Hermione has none.

And allow me to point out the significance of the H/L one-to-one scene at the end of the book. Harry has just received false hope, and Luna is the one, not Ron or Hermione, or Ginny, but Luna, to help Harry in some way. She actually starts Harry feeling human again (in that he has some emotion and feeling apart from being 100% on Sirius's death). Harry will be very grateful for this, and I can see a major bust up between H/Hr over this. :tu: for pointing that out, Davydee!

Take a :clap: too, Davydee. You pointed something out, that I never saw coming.

How deep must the average reader dig to find the clues, though? I've said it before – 99% of the readers of HP are not like us. How deep should the average reader dig? How many layers must the average reader peel away? Does the average reader look at the text, the sub-text or the sub-sub-text?

Wonderfully put, once again.

Not specifically, no, but why can it not be taken/read figuratively or symbolically? Many words have figurative meanings beneath their literal ones, especially when read in certain contexts. If the hippogriff is read as a symbol for love, then it cannot "literally" trample Ron. Trample, therefore, must mean something subtextually in the context of the hippogriff being a symbol.

On reading that, I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly. Trample, even if taken straightforwardly, i.e. the way H/Hr shippers choose to put it, can easily mean Ron being borne down to the floor by the sheer weight of his love. Have I extended the hand of :welcome: to the HMS Heron to you, Mad-I-Moody? If not, forgive me. Please enjoy your stay aboard!

but i'm going to have to see where JKR has done this in the past. We know for a fact JKR uses symbolism in her creatures and the like, but what about her words?

Ron (or Harry) predicts in GoF that Ron will be trampled by a Hippogriff. This, in a way, was proved correct, as his growing subconscious feelings for Hermione were "trampling" him. or in other words, flattening him, (and not allowing other feelings to take hold- Ron is consumed by his subconsious feelings for Hermione) causing him to behave the way he did at the Yule Brawl.

This is a loose interpretation. I'm sure someone out there can do a better job than I can.

Signing out,

Avada

[Sirius83]

Ok, so now onto the animal/symbolism thing. Yes, she does use animals as symbols quite often. However, we can note that
1. The symbols mentioned by F.P. are, in fact, quite easy to discern. It doesn't take a knowledge of Mythological creatures to note that Peter's Animagus form is a rat, and he "ratted out" the Potters. Sirius' Animagus form is a dog, and he is loyal, like a dog.
2. If all of these animals have symbolic meaning, then the other animals must, too -- I mean, if we are to assume that simply because JKR uses animal symbolism a lot that it must apply to Buckbeak as well. So, Prongs -- ok, I guess a stag could represent nobility. Maybe something else? James was noble, we all hope -- but that Pensieve flashback of Snape's certainly undermines that theory.
What about the badger for Hufflepuff? And the eagle for Ravenclaw? (Is it an eagle? I can't remember). If the Ravenclaws are supposed to be so wise, I would think that their symbol would be an owl, noted in mythology and history as wise.

As for the badger, I can't even begin to speculate.

They're not easy to discern actually. Some of the animals are common knowledge, but they did get their meanings from mythology. For example, we do not consider the rat to symbolise betrayal for no reason. They are just used more commonly than the others, but they are still mythical references. Snape's flashback memory does undermine the nobility, but don't forget that it is stated that James changed his ways.

As for the house symbols, i'll quote from this page here:
http://www.darkmark.com/c.c?l=animagi&t=Animal%20Symbolism

HERALDRY
In heraldry, the animals represent whom the coat of arms belongs to. As we know for the houses, the lion represents courage, the snake cunning and the eagle those of wit. I'm not too sure of the heraldic badger but a badger does indeed symbolise tenacity, as we would expect from a Hufflepuff!

EDIT: Actually, this is what the same site said about the stag:

STAG (James Potter)
The stag represents pride, boldness, purity, independance and bravery

[sone]

I really don't understand how it can be argued that Harry DOESN'T need Ron.

It's not that he doesn't need Ron. He just needs Hermione more..... much more.

[haycheng]

a falling out between Harry and Hermione over Luna Lovegood. Harry has much empathy with Luna, Hermione has none.
I remember someone post that Hermione has accept Luna Lovegood. They are less than friend but Hermione is no longer critic her openly. If they has a fallout, it would be another decision making. They may also argue because of Ron or Ginny or Hagrid. Luna does not seem like a logically choice. Beside, it is very unlikely Hermione will be rude to Luna anway. Hermione usually only rude to the ones that she know well.
she is rather less effective in connecting with him on a day to day basis in mundane matters when the future of wizard-kind is not at stake.
Comparing a guy friend with a female friend is technically unsound to begin with. It is especially true at those age. We simply react differently toward same sex or opposite sex. Male/female trend to hang out and have fun with same sex at that age. Cho may be a better baseline, as they get along well until they touch the topic of dead boyfriend and Hermione.

[noddwyd]

Another bit of symbolism to tie in with that would be that the hippogriff represents an impossibility that they will get together. The term 'when griffins mate with horses' (which results in a hippogriff) is interchangeable with 'when pigs fly'. And then in Ootp when Hermione hugs Harry in the welcoming scene, pig (whom Ginny named, herself) is, in fact, flying circles around their heads. Both of these would indicate that Pigs do fly (in the world of JKR), and horses do mate with griffins. So the impossible, has become, in fact, possible.

[Grace Granger]

They Yule ball was just hilarious!

I want to know how is this scene remotely hilarious? Break it down for one more time because I truly do NOT see any amusement in it.

[Sirius83]

Actually, during the Yule Ball i felt sorry for them all...i didn't think it funny at all.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I see I need to bring Chos-POV. This make it to me easier and might be easier to you.

Just imagine your boyfriend did die last year. You kinda depressed because your feelings are strange. One side of you is still unbelievable sad and the other side search after a guy, which you has already eyed, who you like. Its for you very difficult to let you feel or be sure this is right what you feel dor this guy, the same guy who was there as your boy-friend died. Now its going to be serious. Its valentins-day and its your first date with him. You are nervouss but this lay down as fast as you start to speak with him. He nice and dos listen to you. You feel secure and you might think now slowly I can solve this problem and start a new relationship with this guy. You are foolish and go with him to a place where you was with your dead-boyfriend. You want to know if this what you feel now with the new guy is different as that what you felt one year ago. You speaking and drinking but you get he getting more and more nervous. He look at you strangely. Maybe he is shy or don't know what to do. Than he tells you that he meet today a girl, not any girl its that girl which is always around him and the same who was in the newspaper. He tells you that she don't mind if you comes with. Its hit you this isn't right. Why in the devils name dos he meet this girl what he see every day and has so many changes to meet with her on the same day like with you? You think I'm not important enough that is it. But this girl is it. She is important, so important that he end his first date with you. You get very fast that there is something not right. You are angry and make this stupid comparing with your dead boyfriend.
For short this date is a fiasco.
On the same day you walk into the great hall and guess what? He is sitting with that girl. This girl looks happy and is talking with your crush very intensive. You just don't get it. Your date was a fiasco and still he sit there and is talking to this girl as if nothing did happen.
Weeks after that you are again fine with him. You do speak with him and thinks you two might work it out. But you're now suspicious. Still this guy hangs awule often around that girl and seems to take her more important as you.
You angry well your best friend did a failure and the Army isn't anymore active. But the part what you hate is that your best friend had to suffer under a spell by this girl. You speak with this guy and your jaws drop nearly as you hear how proud he is that she did this to your best friend. Now you know it. How could you ever be that foolish to think be his nummber one if he has already someone on this place but is too daft to get it. You never had a chance.

[DumbledoreTheWise]

It's not that he doesn't need Ron. He just needs Hermione more..... much more.

I definitely disagree. He needs Hermione and Ron equally as much. Both of them supply things that Harry needs, in very different ways. Remember how distraught he was when Ron turned against him in GoF? How many times did the text read "he really missed Ron...." or " he thought he would have been able to handle it if he just had Ron by his side....."
He had Hermione then. It wasn't the same. He needs both of them.

Is this another case of a H/Hr shipper underestimating Ron's importance or detesting his character? :huh: I've noticed a lot of that.

[Grace Granger]

Actually, during the Yule Ball i felt sorry for them all...i didn't think it funny at all.

Exactly, Sirius. I find that Ron's screaming at Hermione is close to verbal abuse.

[haycheng]

lol, to FP
Love your post. It is a very interesting story about Cho. It does not matter is Hermione and Harry are just friend. The way Harry treat any girl other than hermione is....very interesting. If he is remain that clueless, I will not suprise he will be alone for his whole life. Either Hermione and Harry are interested in each other or Harry has to be put more distance between him and Hermione.

[Mad-I Moody]

OK, this is going to have to be my last post today (sadly). However, I'll be back tomorrow, and hopefully, I'll have my book back so that I can argue better! :)

1. Thanks for the :welcome:, AK. I think that I have been a stowaway on the HMS Heron for too long, so I decided to come up on deck and voice an opinon or two.
2. Animal Symbolism: OK, with the stag. Purity? Hm, I don't know about that. But whatever...
I have never heard of eagles being symbols for great wit, but that's just me. These are some of the things I have understood eagles to symbolize: royalty, power, victory, authority, freedom, and valor. But again, I missed a few days in interpreting texts classes, so...
I can't find anything that tells me what a badger symbolizes, but tenacity sounds fine with me. OK.
3. I cannot agree that Harry needs Hermione "much more" than Ron. He needs them BOTH. To have one without the other unbalances everything. Hermione can't do many of the things Ron can, and vice versa. Why in the world would JKR make Ron one of Harry's BEST FRIENDS, if he only needed one? What would be the point?

Keep in mind that, when Harry needs to conjure the Patronus in OotP, he sees both Ron AND Hermione's faces. If Ron wasn't there in PS/SS, Hermione and Harry would never have gotten through to the Potions room. Plus which, that potions scene must not have been all THAT significant, as JKR did not insist on it being included in the movie. If Ron wasn't there in CoS, Harry never would have escaped from the Dursleys, never would have been into the Slytherin common room (b/c when do we ever see Crabbe without Goyle?), never would have been able to bully Lockhart...
In PoA, without Ron, Harry never would have gone in to the Shrieking Shack and found out about Sirius, he never would have been saved from Snape's punishment (about being in Hogsmeade)...I'm sure there are others, but I'm running short on time...

In GoF, I don't think Harry needs one or the other all that much. Yeah, Hermione teaches him the Summoning Charm, and supports Harry when Ron is upset with him, but Ron is only upset with Harry for a short while -- through the first task. After that, he comes on board to support Harry full force. And, at the end of GoF, it says that Harry preferred to sit and listen to Ron and Hermione talk to EACH OTHER. Anyway, GoF evidence is pending, but I would say that this book is more of Harry being on his own, and just needing Hermione and Ron for support. When Ron does finally come around, after the first task, Harry thinks that "Ron's indignation on his behalf was worth about a hundred points to him." When Harry goes back into the tent to talk to the other Champions, it is RON who waits for him, and only Ron. OK, I'll go through more of that later...maybe tomorrow.
In OotP, Harry doesn't treat either of his best friends as if he needs them much. But he does, and he recognizes, at times, that he relies on their support. He needs Hermione to be sensible and practical, but he also need Ron to identify with and laugh and joke with. One of those is no more important than the other -- it is no use in arguing that sense is "better" than laughter, because they can't be measured in that way. They are both needed to help Harry through the time he is having. BOTH. Equally.

OK, that's it for this post. I'll get back to this thread sometime tomorrow, hopefully.

Signing off, for now. ;)

EDIT: Ha ha, I'm back, but only briefly. If I remember correctly, Ron and Hermione are screaming at EACH OTHER during the Yule "Brawl." So they must be verbally abusing each other, right???

[AvadaKedavra]

IMO, I neither find the Yule Ball very "amusing" or very "terrible", as a whole.

But what I do find funny is Ron making excuses as he struggles to explain what he is feeling, and the "gaping soundlessly part". I didn't LMAO at the arguing, but found it extremely entertaining stuff. I did feel for all of them though.

Signing out,

Avada

[sone]

"If I remember correctly, Ron and Hermione are screaming at EACH OTHER during the Yule "Brawl." So they must be verbally abusing each other, right???"

No. Hermione did not verbally abuse Ron. He verbally abused her.

[humongoratdropping]

Yeah, sone is right. I think all the botched dates will have to rectify themselves. (Excluding Harry and Parvati, this couple will never happen) See thread "Will there be another ball??"(or something about that)
Ron was just being an insensitive git.

[Turambar]

Just catching up. Thanks FP, Mike. Awesome work today FP in particular, great posts. :clap: :clap:

[GilyAnn]

I want to know how is this scene remotely hilarious? Break it down for one more time because I truly do NOT see any amusement in it.


I think it is! Look, I'm 34 years old. I find it hilarious they way 14 year old argue and feel jealous at each other. Ron is jealous but he has no idea that he is. Hermione didn't even think that going out with Krum could really be fraternizing with the enemy. Harry is caught in the middle. :lol: :agree: I think it's incredibly funny.

I'm way over that stage but to read that is incredibly funny. It transport you to a different world and one you no longer belong too. Being a teenager is one of the best stages (even though it doesn't look like it is when you are in it) on your life. The whole thing made me laugh ages. Hermione and Ron having that Row at the end of it. Harry saying that Ron didn't get it! LoL! I can't help it. For me it's just incredibly funny.

My grown up brain can help but laugh ages at it. I'm sorry. It may not be funny to you but I honestly laughed ages!

Thank you AK! A big :clap: to you too! and Dayvedee.


Gily Ann

[GryffindorGal]

Exactly! Erica, Hermione had to have been told by Dumbledore by the time she left that Mr. Weasley was okay. The Weasley's did find out by morning time, just as Hermione would have found out as well.
In my opinion, she went to support Harry more than the Weasleys.


If one considers the speed at which the paintings can move, Dumbledore might have known that Mr Weasley would be ok before the rest of them did.

[EricaM]

I think it is! Look, I'm 34 years old. I find it hilarious they way 14 year old argue and feel jealous at each other. Ron is jealous but he has no idea that he is. Hermione didn't even think that going out with Krum could really be fraternizing with the enemy. Harry is caught in the middle. :lol: :agree: I think it's incredibly funny.

I'm way over that stage but to read that is incredibly funny. It transport you to a different world and one you no longer belong too. Being a teenager is one of the best stages (even though it doesn't look like it is when you are in it) on your life. The whole thing made me laugh ages. Hermione and Ron having that Row at the end of it. Harry saying that Ron didn't get it! LoL! I can't help it. For me it's just incredibly funny.

My grown up brain can help but laugh ages at it. I'm sorry. It may not be funny to you but I honestly laughed ages!

Gily Ann

I'm 40 years old and I didn't find that scene particularly funny. Ron is being petty and resentful and yes, possibly jealous, too. Hermione is most emphatically not fraternizing with the enemy. The big row at the end of it, where Ron and Hemrione are screaming at each other from opposite ends of the room. Where she walks out on him before they 'talk it out', where Harry does agree with Hermione but doesn't voice his opinion to Ron because he doesn't want a tear their freshly sutured friendship, funny?

She stepped carefully out of their line of fire, and raised her on spray.
'All right - squirt'

Now this I found funny, but that's just me. :shrugs:

Erica