Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

[GilyAnn]

I'm 40 years old and I didn't find that scene particularly funny. Ron is being petty and resentful and yes, possibly jealous, too. Hermione is most emphatically not fraternizing with the enemy. The big row at the end of it, where Ron and Hemrione are screaming at each other from opposite ends of the room. Where she walks out on him before they 'talk it out', where Harry does agree with Hermione but doesn't voice his opinion to Ron because he doesn't want a tear their freshly sutured friendship, funny?

I may simply share JKR dark sense of Humor! It's humanly impossible that we all share the same sense of humor!

Gily Ann

[haycheng]

Harry, Hermione and loyality
Pg. 237 US version OFTP
Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized hermione's offer to accompany him into Umbridge's office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty
I must say I can not understand how people take this quote and decide that Harry has not feel loyality from Hermione before this. It is simply mean that Harry knows Hermione's action is a sign of loyality, just as many signs of loyality which hermione has showed.
This scene is especially mentioned, due to it unusual situation. It is the first time, hermione risked this much when she does not believe in the cause. The level of loyality showed here is beyond anything in the series so far. the only one that can compare is when the Fawk comes to Harry rescue in COS.
knowing and feeling
Knowing and feeling are two different thing. I know my mon love me but I feel my mon love when she is doing something because of me. The loyality incident is simply means that Harry feels and consciously aware hermione loyality in this incident. There is nothing that hints Harry do not know Hermione is loyal to him before this.

PS:
humor of the Yale ball fight
I can see why you find funny. I sometime find it is funny when my two sisters fight(one is 14 and one is 7). The point is the ones who is fighting do not find the fight funny. They are angry and sad because of the fight.

PPS: Have not mod. mention that the thread will start to act weird when it reach 2000 post? Do we need to call the mod.?

[Ame]

I may simply share JKR dark sense of Humor! It's humanly impossible that we all share the same sense of humor!

Well, you and me both Gily Ann. I mean, come on, it was pretty funny when you look back on it. Ron was obviously, visibly jealous and the poor boy just wouldn't admit it to himself. So the best excuse he could think of was fraternizing with the enemy..? I laughed out loud at that scene. Everyone got he was jealous except for Ron, that's what was so funny about it! :lol: And he still didn't get it, after Hermione had basically said it in his face. Harry got it, Hermione got it, most likely the whole of Gryffindor Tower got it, except Ron. :lol: Hi stubborness was so silly and comical.

But like Gily said, maybe I too have a dark sense of humor... :shrug:

[EricaM]

I may simply share JKR dark sense of Humor! It's humanly impossible that we all share the same sense of humor!

Gily Ann

You think that the Yule Brawl was a sampling of JKR's dark humour? As opposed the scene at the Dursley's after the Dementors' attack (the Dementoids 'n all) or Umbridge being carried away by one of her so called 'half breeds'?

Erica

[Augurey]

Hey everyone on the HMS Harmony *stands on the bow of the ship, and waves also to everyone at HMS Heron, whilst straining to see if they're waving back*

Firstly, great post guys and i mean everyone your all making excellent cases.

Just a few things cleared up if thats alright

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Originally Posted by AvadaKedavra
However, I see things a little differently. A second Ron fall out? If you go to Mutant for Hire’s excellent, brilliant, insightful thread called Books Two and Five, you will see an astonishing inter book pattern established throughout the series. The gist of it is that Book One is correlating to Book Four and Seven, Book Two to Book 5, and Book 3 to Book 6.
__________________________________________________________

Im sorry but how is Book 1 and 4 correlating? i need to read this excellent, brilliant, insightful thread called Books Two and Five, could someone please point me in the right direction, thanks



Gillyann
_____________________________________________________________
Quote:
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Ron was very much looking forward to Fleur's kiss, perhaps very much enjoys it. However, he doesn't know what to make of Hermione's kiss. He doesn't know where to compartmentalise it. It's not quite like his sister kissing him as Hermione isn't his sister, and not quite like Fleur kissing him because he's not obviously attracted/impressed, etc by Hermione. Hermione is just Hermione. So where does that kiss fit in?
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Text please were it says that Ron wanted Fleur to kiss him. He only said "a bit". And read again that part of my posts. I made a clear distintion between one kiss and the other.
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Fleur bent diwn, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (edit) then to Ron'and you, too - you 'elped-'
'Yeah,' said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, 'yeah, a bit-'

I think that Ron looking both extremely and hopeful, proves that he wanted Fleur to kiss him.
______________________________________________________
Hermione kissed fit into the I like you as more than a friend and I'm maybe starting to fall for you.
_______________________________________________________

Im still not quite sure how you worked this one out, considering in my view that it was a kiss for luck, if every kiss for luck is supposed to show 'hidden feelings' then iv cheated on my boyfriend more times than id like to count :whistle: (whoops!)

_______________________________________________________
Ron hints thru all CoS. Everyone else dropped it by the middle of the book and Ron kept on going. He certainly doesn't seem to mind that Harry takes Ginny to the ball. He may simply think that Ginny is best suited for Harry. Heck there is even a very funny fanfic about that. Also if all those people 'hinted' at H/G. Couldn't it be a form of Ironic foreshadowing? After all Ron was joking but who is it that says that everything that Ron jokes with comes true or something like that.
________________________________________________________

Im not saying your wrong here, but where does Ron hint that Ginny should go out with Harry, im sorry i don't have my COS book, the only one i can think of was the OoTP one at the end whilst their on the train.

Sorry if i don't have much to say i just wanted to clarify somethings and sorry is iv repeated anything. cheers.

[sone]

But Ron isn't joking. He wants Harry to go out with Ginny. Get rid of two birds with one stone.

[GilyAnn]

Harry, Hermione and loyality
Pg. 237 US version OFTP

I must say I can not understand how people take this quote and decide that Harry has not feel loyality from Hermione before this. It is simply mean that Harry knows Hermione's action is a sign of loyality, just as many signs of loyality which hermione has showed.
This scene is especially mentioned, due to it unusual situation. It is the first time, hermione risked this much when she does not believe in the cause. The level of loyality showed here is beyond anything in the series so far. the only one that can compare is when the Fawk comes to Harry rescue in COS.
knowing and feeling
Knowing and feeling are two different thing. I know my mon love me but I feel my mon love when she is doing something because of me. The loyality incident is simply means that Harry feels and consciously aware hermione loyal in this incident. There is nothing that hints Harry do not know Hermione is loyal to him before this.

Since I'm the main one who brought up the question I'll answer it.

To me if Harry needs to see in Hermione her loyalty it is a big problem. But he had to see it to recognize that it ever existed. He should have no question of it.

Gily Ann

Edit:

You think that the Yule Brawl was a sampling of JKR's dark humour? As opposed the scene at the Dursley's after the Dementors' attack (the Dementoids 'n all) or Umbridge being carried away by one of her so called 'half breeds'?

Off course it was! I laughed ages at Dudley demented and Umbridge being carried away! But I also laughed a lot to the Yule Ball scene.

Im still not quite sure how you worked this one out, considering in my view that it was a kiss for luck, if every kiss for luck is supposed to show 'hidden feelings' then iv cheated on my boyfriend more times than id like to count (whoops!)

We are talking about Ron's feelings here. His feelings not Hermione's.
It was a good luck kiss but it's Ron's reaction what we are talking about here.

Im not saying your wrong here, but where does Ron hint that Ginny should go out with Harry, im sorry i don't have my COS book, the only one i can think of was the OoTP one at the end whilst their on the train.

Ok he hints at the beginning of the book when Ginny sees Harry, also in the table in the school, and in moaning myrtle's bathroom. Then he goes at it again in GoF when he hints that Ginny should go with Harry to the Yule ball.

[AvadaKedavra]

Augrey

*waves back

Well, it should be in the prediction and theories forum- the same one as this forum is placed in. If you can't find it, do a search "Books Two and Five". Failing that, ask the mods or the master himself, Mutant For Hire, CoS Forums' latest king.

Well, IMO.

As for the Yule Brawl, I've now read the whole thing again, I'm 17 years old and I'm just emerging from that phase of teenage years and I have to say that I find it more funny than I find it terrible. I do feel for poor Hermione though.

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT: Wow! Lovely sig, Gily Ann!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got any closer to finding a name for the ship?

[haycheng]

To GilyAnn
The point I try to make is that he has never question Hermione's loyality exist. He simply mention her action is a sign of loyality. It is very different IMHO. The incident may strike him because it does show a level of loyal that has not been seen. Hermione is help him when go against her own judgement. Hermione's loyality may indeed beyond his expectation.

Hay waves to HMS Harmony and HMS Heron while his spirit floating by. (The body is still at Bay Area, CA, USA)

[Hope1272]

Maybe it's the four year difference, because I'm thirty and my grown up brain was repulsed reading the whole Yule Brawl sequence. Ron was completely out of line. He accused Hermione of being disloyal(the hypocrisy on that point alone is mindblowing) and intimated very strongly that the only reason why Krum would ask her out was to spy on Harry and not because she was attractive or worth taking out on her own. I just don't find a fourteen year old girl on her first date and enjoying it being put down and humiliated in public by a best friend very funny at all.

But the worst part was that he actually enjoyed making her miserable and he comes off looking like an infantile jerk who puts his feelings about everyone else and that's not Ron. I want Ron with someone who brings out the absolute best in him because he deserves to be that and not some jealous git who's in the dark as to why he does what he does(yes, an H/Hr who loves Ron. It's possible ;)) That's why I have such hopes for a R/L pairing. Her love and gentle encouragment would do more to bring out the best in him rather than the bickering because he would feel confident to make the changes himself rather than being prodded to in order to meet an expectation.

[Augurey]

We are talking about Ron's feelings here. His feelings not Hermione's.
It was a good luck kiss but it's Ron's reaction what we are talking about here

Oh im sorry in that case he's merely stunned by it, the fact that he's still transfixed by the time their walking out of the castle, shows that he doesn't know what to think. Im sure he's more confused than wondering what kind of kiss it was.

By the way i do love your sig, Ginny looks absolutly lovely.

[GilyAnn]

EDIT: Wow! Lovely sig, Gily Ann!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got any closer to finding a name for the ship?

Uuu I forgot! Let's name it the Chocolate ship. BTW what does it mean the HMS that all of you put on the beginning of the ships.


I'm sorry but I still find the Yule Ball funny! I can't help it!

Gily Ann

[sone]

I did actually find the Yule Ball argument funny. Yes, I have a dark sense of humor too. However, what is important is that Hermione did not find it funny.

[Augurey]

EDIT: Wow! Lovely sig, Gily Ann!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got any closer to finding a name for the ship?

Uuu I forgot! Let's name it the Chocolate ship. BTW what does it mean the HMS that all of you put on the beginning of the ships.

Gily Ann

HMS Chocalate sounds very yummy :)

Oh and HMS is usually put before the name of a ship it means 'his/her majesty's ship'

[haycheng]

Is your ship actually make of Chocalate? Mind I come aboard and bring some back to Bay Area?

[Narami]

. When Hermione told Harry that “girls do not ask questions like that�, she was also speaking about herself. Harry said, “well they should�. Hermione should very well listen to Harry on that.
I totally agree with that!! :clap: In fact I wanted to say, that scene is a classic in romance. What came to my mind was the movie American Pie II (yeah, I know, couldn't remember a better one :shrug:) the girl starts to help the guy get the girl, "you should say this and do that if you like this girl", and in the end they end up together because in resume, he has get to know her more through the tips she was giving him and their conversation about love and such. So if Hermoine keeps helping Harry to be better with girls, I have no doubt he will end up liking her, she will have more oportunities in making him say things she wants to hear, like that: "and you should have mention how ugly you think I am too"
"but I don't think you're ugly"
Uh yeah and what do you think of me Harry boy... :rotfl:
Er- I think you're great Hermione...
There you go classic romance 101 :p

[GilyAnn]

Is your ship actually make of Chocalate? Mind I come aboard and bring some back to Bay Area?

:lol: Yes we have chocolates to give away. Any way you like it! Chocolate happens to be my favorite thing to eat and I don't eat sweets but somehow anything that has chocolate weaken my knees!

Oh and HMS is usually put before the name of a ship it means 'his/her majesty's ship'

Well thank you. That was a big doubt and I alway forgot to ask!

Gily Ann

[AvadaKedavra]

Gily Ann

That's a fantastic name!

May the HMS Chocolate sail well, and you're always welcome to stop by over here on the HMS Heron for a cup of tea, a chat, and a stock up for supplies- (chocolate yum yum!).

Is it ok if I stay on the HMS Chocolate for a night here and then, just to help out with affairs? :p

Signing out,

Avada

[GilyAnn]

Gily Ann

That's a fantastic name!

May the HMS Chocolate sail well, and you're always welcome to stop by over here on the HMS Heron for a cup of tea, a chat, and a stock up for supplies- (chocolate yum yum!).

Is it ok if I stay on the HMS Chocolate for a night here and then, just to help out with affairs? :p

Signing out,

Avada

Oh you must! Mind you Tomorrow you will have added a pound to your weight! Off course I stay on the HMS Heron Tea and cookies :drool: No wonder I spend the time I spend on the gym!

Gily Ann

[Earendil]

Some nice posts on the last few pages. Regarding the nature of the Yule Brawl: any reader is entitled to be amused or not by the text, and I'm not going to dispute that. I'm only bringing this up because while I was reading this scene I personally stopped chuckling to myself the minute Hermione started looking as if she had been slapped in the face at one of Ron's scathing remarks. This argument is clearly not intended to be light-hearted and cutesy, the way that some of Ron and Hermione's other verbal sparring sessions have been. I'm not refuting the possible interpretations of the scene; I merely want to point out that I felt the author's intent was to show that there is something alot more serious happening in Ron and Hermione's friendship that isn't exactly what I would call good.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Also if all those people 'hinted' at H/G. Couldn't it be a form of Ironic foreshadowing?

The following people have clearly and indubitably 'hinted' at H/Hr:
Viktor Krum
Rita Skeeter
Cho Chang

If it can be considered foreshadowing in the case of H/G, it can also be considered foreshadowing in the case of H/Hr.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
To me if Harry needs to see in Hermione her loyalty it is a big problem. But he had to see it to recognize that it ever existed. He should have no question of it.

Again, this is entirely personal interpretation which we are all entitled to. My question concerning the above argument would be, if ever Harry comes to any realization, at any point in the story, can it be assumed that he formerly believed the opposite to the point that he has just realized?

If the answer is yes, then I could say that prior to GoF, Harry thought Dumbledore was young and would always remain young. ("The Pensieve", numerous examples of Harry realizing how old Dumbledore appeared)

If the answer is yes, then I could say that prior to OotP, Harry thought Sirius was ugly. ("Snape's Worst Memory", Harry realized that Sirius had been very handsome in his youth.)

If the answer is yes, then I could say that prior to GoF, Harry doubted that Dumbledore was powerful enough to be the only wizard Voldemort ever feared. ("Veritaserum", Harry fully understands for the first time how powerful Dumbledore is when he Stuns Fake Moody in the office).

See where these assumptions are taking us? The fact that Harry did indeed recognize Hermione's loyalty to him in the Out of the Fire scene cannot in all senses of the term indicate that he doubted her loyalty before. If it is assumed that he does not recognize any of his friends' loyalty until the point that it is verbally expressed in the narration, then we could say that he has yet to recognize Ron's loyalty--or, for that matter, anyone's loyalty except Hermione's.

[Elric]

I hope this doesn't double-post, I tried to submit it once and it seemed to time-out and not appear in the forum, so I'm trying again, if it appears twice I apologise, it's not deliberate. Right onto the topic of the post.

Just like to offer a suggestion regarding Harry and Luna's interaction at the end of OOTP, as it was mentioned few posts ago. It could be a indication of a possible romantic connection in future, we all know what JKR's like with her foreshadowing and stuff, but I'd like to suggest that it's an example of Harry empathizing with people he sees as victims in a situation.

Let me use the Snape/pensieve situation as an example. Here we see Harry's dad at 15 tormenting Snape, aided and abetted slightly by Sirius.

Now who in this scene does Harry identify with? His father James who Harry has been compared to in the past, an association Harry has always taken great pride in, no Harry doesn't identify with James at all in this situation.

Perhaps Sirius, Harry's godfather who Harry obviously cares for deeply, again, no. Instead Harry identifies with Snape, someone who, as a teacher at Hogwarts, Harry loathes with a passion. Why? Because Harry identifies with the victim, and knows what Snape went through, how it feels to be taunted by a circle of onlookers, Harry's reaction is described in the chapter 'Snapes Worst Memory' final page, P573 of the UK edition.

Moving on to the Luna conversation, this occurs in the chapter 'The Second War Begins', from the bottom of P759 - P761 of the UK edition.

Harry initiates the conversation by asking Luna why she's not at the end of term feast and she replies that she's putting up notices for the return of her belongings.

Harry, clearly nonplussed, asks why people would take her stuff and she tells him that some people find her odd, calling her 'Loony' Lovegood. This I believe is the link that allows Harry to empathize with Luna's situation, though I will readily admit that it's tenuous. What was one of the things that the Daily Prophet had levelled at Harry, that he was delusional, if we wished to use a more derogatory term that Harry was 'Loony'?

Nevertheless Harry once again identifies with the victim in the situation, first feeling pity and sorrow, and then exhibiting anger on her behalf, saying that was no reason to take her stuff and asking if she wanted Harry to help. Luna, who seemed supremely unconcerned about the whole thing, politely declines.

Up to now this is nothing out of the ordinary, this has been a typical Harry reaction, nobody could ever accuse him of not having his heart in the right place.

It would be churlish to ignore the final exchanges between them regarding death and loss. Luna, still quietly missing her dead mother, could reach Harry, with the loss of Sirius still raw, like nobody else could. It was a touching moment.

[Narami]

Earendil: :clap:

[Hawk 92]

First off :tu: :clap: to all the great posts today by HMS Harmony. Don't have time to type out names


Heychang

There is a ship called the HMS Hawknest. This ship was created in the Love Thread before book 5 for non-shippers like myself (at that point I was a non shipper). The Hawknest sails with the Harmony fleet, but it is a non shipper ship. I used to be the Captain of the Hawknest but since I have become H/Hr she's without a Captain. I think that you would fill the post quite nicely. :)

And a congratulations to Turambar who I heard just made Admiral of the HMS Harmony Fleet and to Mad Eye Mike who just made rear admiral.

Now back to topic

Cheers!

[haycheng]

That fine, Hawk
I am no longer require a ship. I leave my body behind at Bay Area. I do not think my spirit will require material need.Thank for the offer. I will try to remain close by the H/Hr and offer my skill.

[Hawk 92]

heychang

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

1 Corinthians 6:19

The offer always stands. Don't neglect your body less your soul fall into despair as well. But I do reserve a cabin on the Hawknest for when I need to take a step back and look at things objectively.

Cheers!

[haycheng]

Dont worry, I will return to my body when I am not at the board. I am going to build my own transport soon.
H/L
I do not believe H/L will have any chance at all. Before go to the DoM, Harry told us that he is annoyed by Luna. Harry may have a soft spot for her, but nothing more will be come out of this relationship.

PS: By the way, GilyAnn do you worry that you ship could melt?

[DumbledoreTheWise]

I love the signature GilyAnn. Cutest picture ever. but shouldn't the HMS Harmony be called HMS Harmione? If you've got to omit letters to make the ship work.......you're as ill fated as the Titanic!

Oh lighten up, I'm joking! This thread was getting too calm.
**Watches gleefully as HMS Harmony hits a large and fairly obvious iceburg known to most as 'Ron.' **

[Bloodpop]

I haven't posted in here since reading the fifth edition of the Harry Potter series, the main reason was I wanted to mole over the information put forth by JK, but the secondary reason is that I don't feel I have to defend my ships anymore. JK surely, although very subtely put the final nails in the rival ships, and I now feel more then ever that the outcome of the series main "ships" will be R/H, H/G.

Think about it, what were arguments against these pairings?
1. Ron's a prat, and can't understand Hermione on a mature level.
Who threw the most insults in this book? Emotional level of a teaspoon anyone? No in this one JK allowed Ron to grow up, and for the first time Ron was the more mature of the two, the two being Ron and Hermione. Instead of going off half-cocked, he tried reasoning, and coaxing her into to agreeing with him.
2. Hermione doesn't like Ron.
This is sort of a gray area, but there was one giant clue in this book and it came directly from Hermione's mouth.
What day was Harry's date with Cho on?
Valentine's day right.
What did Hermione do on Valentine's Day?
Threatened Skeeter with extortion and sat around the common room, correct?
What did Ron do?
Quidditch Practice.
How is this important? Well how would you feel if the boy you liked, let Valentine's day slip by without so much as a word. You'd feel a little upset, that maybe he was the most unaware person on the planet.
Ok, let me explain myself.
Harry and Hermione are sitting discussing the date with Cho and Cho's eventual water-works. Hermiones tells Harry that he should have told Cho he thought she was ugly. Harry's response is "But I don't think your ugly.", this answer(which any red-blood male like myself will tell you) is standard issue, and Hermione laughs because she knows this is the typical placaiting male response. So she tells him " Oh, Harry your as bad as Ron( or does she say worse then? I can't recall I dont have the book in front of me) ." So heres the twist, Ron comes trudging through the door looking thoroughly tired from a hard Quidditch practice. What does Hermione do, she makes a sour face and says, " Wait no your not." she's referring to the comment she just made about Harry being the same as Ron. But why? What is she talking about? Why does Ron deserve a poke for simply walking throught the door? He hasn't done anything towards her, no disservice, at this point in the scene he can't even hear what she's saying. So why the rude comment?
It's like I said before, she was a bit put off for having Valentine's day come and go without so much as a peep out the boy she has her eye on, you can almost hear her thinking " No, Harry isn't as bad as Ron, atleast he went on a date with his crush, albeit a very short date, but it was still something." So all you H/Hr, answer this question.

Why did Hermione feel she had to cut Ron down a notch, when he had'nt affronted her, in any visible way?

3.Ginny Weasley is just a fan girl.
Well, JK, simply threw this argument out the window, and even gave the former fan a new beau. Frankly I thought the use of comparisons between Harry and Ginny in this book, all but cemented their future together. Harry has already shown an affinity for female seekers. So what does JK do, throws Harry off the team and puts Ginny in his place. Then has her grab the snitch right out from under cho's nose. As if that wasn't convicing enough, JK has Cho Harry's crush, and Michael Ginny's boyfriend, together at the end. Come on people, have you ever heard the term, LIKE A BULL IN A CHINA SHOP? Thats what that clue was to me. Not only did JK take Cho and Michael out of the equation, she's also saying that people Harry and Ginny have found attractive, and vice versa, have found each other attractive. That there is the possibilty of an attraction between the two.
4. Harry doesn't notice Ginny Weasley.
Harry noticed Ginny plenty in this book, from her celebrating his return from the trial to her suddenly realizing she spoke to him, to the comfortable scene in the library with the chocalote egg and Ginny looking wind swept. I have a feeling Harry's knight will be quivering in front of Ron's queen plenty in the last two books.


Well that's for now, let the disscusion begin.

[DumbledoreTheWise]

I haven't posted in here since reading the fifth edition of the Harry Potter series, the main reason was I wanted to mole over the information put forth by JK, but the secondary reason is that I don't feel I have to defend my ships anymore. JK surely, although very subtely put the final nails in the rival ships, and I now feel more then ever that the outcome of the series main "ships" will be R/H, H/G.

Think about it, what were arguments against these pairings?
1. Ron's a prat, and can't understand Hermione on a mature level.
Who threw the most insults in this book? Emotional level of a teaspoon anyone? No in this one JK allowed Ron to grow up, and for the first time Ron was the more mature of the two, the two being Ron and Hermione. Instead of going off half-cocked, he tried reasoning, and coaxing her into to agreeing with him.
2. Hermione doesn't like Ron.
This is sort of a gray area, but there was one giant clue in this book and it came directly from Hermione's mouth.
What day was Harry's date with Cho on?
Valentine's day right.
What did Hermione do on Valentine's Day?
Threatened Skeeter with extortion and sat around the common room, correct?
What did Ron do?
Quidditch Practice.
How is this important? Well how would you feel if the boy you liked, let Valentine's day slip by without so much as a word. You'd feel a little upset, that maybe he was the most unaware person on the planet.
Ok, let me explain myself.
Harry and Hermione are sitting discussing the date with Cho and Cho's eventual water-works. Hermiones tells Harry that he should have told Cho he thought she was ugly. Harry's response is "But I don't think your ugly.", this answer(which any red-blood male like myself will tell you) is standard issue, and Hermione laughs because she knows this is the typical placaiting male response. So she tells him " Oh, Harry your as bad as Ron( or does she say worse then? I can't recall I dont have the book in front of me) ." So heres the twist, Ron comes trudging through the door looking thoroughly tired from a hard Quidditch practice. What does Hermione do, she makes a sour face and says, " Wait no your not." she's referring to the comment she just made about Harry being the same as Ron. But why? What is she talking about? Why does Ron deserve a poke for simply walking throught the door? He hasn't done anything towards her, no disservice, at this point in the scene he can't even hear what she's saying. So why the rude comment?
It's like I said before, she was a bit put off for having Valentine's day come and go without so much as a peep out the boy she has her eye on, you can almost hear her thinking " No, Harry isn't as bad as Ron, atleast he went on a date with his crush, albeit a very short date, but it was still something." So all you H/Hr, answer this question.

Why did Hermione feel she had to cut Ron down a notch, when he had'nt affronted her, in any visible way?

3.Ginny Weasley is just a fan girl.
Well, JK, simply threw this argument out the window, and even gave the former fan a new beau. Frankly I thought the use of comparisons between Harry and Ginny in this book, all but cemented their future together. Harry has already shown an affinity for female seekers. So what does JK do, throws Harry off the team and puts Ginny in his place. Then has her grab the snitch right out from under cho's nose. As if that wasn't convicing enough, JK has Cho Harry's crush, and Michael Ginny's boyfriend, together at the end. Come on people, have you ever heard the term, LIKE A BULL IN A CHINA SHOP? Thats what that clue was to me. Not only did JK take Cho and Michael out of the equation, she's also saying that people Harry and Ginny have found attractive, and vice versa, have found each other attractive. That there is the possibilty of an attraction between the two.
4. Harry doesn't notice Ginny Weasley.
Harry noticed Ginny plenty in this book, from her celebrating his return from the trial to her suddenly realizing she spoke to him, to the comfortable scene in the library with the chocalote egg and Ginny looking wind swept. I have a feeling Harry's knight will be quivering in front of Ron's queen plenty in the last two books.


Well that's for now, let the disscusion begin.

Bloodpop: Yes, yes, and yes. I agree completely. I am confident that these so called "ships" have been cemented as well. am not too concerned about the arguements here, as I know (fine call me arrogant) where it will eventually lead. Frankly, it makes me happy just to think about it. Not that I think this will necessarily be a happily ever after ending for everyone. Hardly. But I stand firm on my R/Hrm, H/G opinion. I think each couple will compliment each other beautifully. Ah, to read a well written story......especially one that mirrors our existence so profoundly.

[AvadaKedavra]

:welcome: to the HMS Heron, BloodPop

Harry has already shown an affinity for female seekers.

That's true. I hadn't thought of that before.

Then has her grab the snitch right out from under cho's nose.

Interesting parallel. This should counter the "dream" theory that some H/Hr employ. (cho turning into Hermione).

Not only did JK take Cho and Michael out of the equation, she's also saying that people Harry and Ginny have found attractive, and vice versa, have found each other attractive. That there is the possibilty of an attraction between the two.

Hey! You're actually making an interesting case for H/G! :clap:

While I'm not a hardcore H/G shipper, I think the chances of Harry ending up with Ginny are certainly better than Hermione. To me, there are three possibilities for Harry's partner in the future. (all of this is IMO)

1. No-one.
2. Hermione.
3. Ginny

And I of course, think it will probably be 3.

It's like I said before, she was a bit put off for having Valentine's day come and go without so much as a peep out the boy she has her eye on, you can almost hear her thinking " No, Harry isn't as bad as Ron, atleast he went on a date with his crush, albeit a very short date, but it was still something."

Interesting take. I noticed the Quidditch link- i.e. the very reason why Ron does not go into Hogsmeade on Valentine's day is because of Quidditch, and hey presto! Here he walks in, in messy Quidditch gear.

Signing out,

Avada

[_BT_]

sorry i know some of these args were made a couple pages back; but haven't had time to reply until now

aurelius: in GoF he says.."Hermione, you're a girl..." - I think what he is trying to plainly say is that...I need a date to the ball and you're a girl and I need to take a girl...and I think Ron was feeling confident that she would say "yes" because their friends...But on Hermione's part, with her personality and always being wanting to be the best and for her to be socially insecure took this offensively. In her point of view - well, she was Ron's last resort...and I don't think that goes down well with any girl, knowing that your friend practically asked all the girls out and then in the end had no choice but to ask you out...I think this is why Ron and Hermione had that blow out after the Yule Ball, because Ron thought that he could always count on Hermione when he needed her and Hermione didn't want to be a "last resort" for him or anyone...

fully agreed. when i read the scene, i interpreted it as ron just asking a friend, because he needed a girl to go with.... nothing more. hermione of course, was offended by being placed at the bottom of a list.. perhaps she felt inferior... but i don't think there's any more 'subconsious' feelings beyond that. agree with your last statement about how hermione didn't like be placed at a last chance kind of deal.

Augurey: That said however i don't think there is really enough (IMO) to really say for sure who likes who, in fact im actually prepared to not accept that Ron actually likes Hermione until the day that it comes out of his mouth e.g 'Hermione i think i love you' that sort of thing. So im going to agree with the person, whose post is above mine, that Ron sees Hermione as just 'one of the guys'.

i also believe that ron just hermione as a friend, and nothing more. but, like you said, as long as jkr is not very outward on the romance issues, people are going to keep on debating their own interpretations of events.

Turambar: To me H/Hr exhibit far too much intensity, interest and regard for each other to be now and forever platonic. The scene when they are debating what to do about Sirius is lit through with electricity. But there are other scenes such as Hermione's hug for Harry, where she doesn't want to let go; her trembling relief when she hears he won't be expelled; Harry's lightheadedness when he finds out she's okay in the DOM that demonstrate that intensity and depth of feeling. They both care a lot for Ron but I feel Hermione lacks respect for Ron and in contrast admires Harry.

excellent points all around. the h/hr relationship just works on such a deeper level than r/hr... the two have immense respect for each other, and also emotion. i think harry/hermione probably care for each other more than any other people. i kinda disagree with your last statement-- i do believe hermione has respect for ron, but not as much as harry; and they don't connect as well. i do agree that hermione admires harry, (in contrast with ron) the relationship between h/hr is just so much stronger than r/hr.. that's one big reason why i've supported h/hr more

Daveydee: I (BT) said ----> another excellent point. interesting how everyone mentions how ron/hermione, harry/ginny, etc have these "subconcious" feelings for one another... but the only PROOF in the books of subconcious feelings lies in this scene right here. this is the only scene where we actually see subconcious feelings, where it's not interpretation. You said-----> PROOF??? It's proof of nothing and the meaning of which is very much open to a whole variety of symbolic interpretations.

lol -- ok, you're missing my point. what i'm saying is a lot of r/hr shippers keep mentioning how they have so-called 'subconsious' feelings for each other. however, it's all just speculation and interpretation of events without subconsious feelings written directly in the text. the only scene where we actually SEE subconsious feelings is in the dream scene. what i was saying is that this scene is the only PROOF of subconsious feelings even existing with the characters. now, like i said in the quote above, the dream scene is still up to interpretation. i take it as pointing to a cho-to-hermione transition romantically, r/hr shippers will inevitably take it differently.

GilyAnn: I'm sorry but Hermione isn't the female lead. I just don't see her that way. JKR has always described her as the sidekick, she categorizes her as a strong character just the same way Mcgonagall is also. I'm sorry I also don't agree that Hermione and Harry became the two key student characters. I think OoP made the way to separate the trio. Which is why I think it will happend later on. Ron is usually the trendsetter. Next year Harry will be the 'distant' one. One key is that we don't know what classes Hermione and Ron take next year and it seems as if Snape is going to become a problem for Harry. I honestly believe that jkr will separate the Trio furthermore than she did on OoP. It was one of the reasons why I believe jkr would give Ron the Prefect badge and it's probably going to give him the HB one too.

had to throw my 2 cents in this one. if hermione isn't the female lead, then what is she? the female side-character? being the only real female character with any significant screen-time, that makes her the main female character (i.e. the lead). now i know you're saying she's just a sidekick to harry, (which is true), but doesn't defeat the point that she still is the ONLY main female character, making her the lead. one of the reasons i thought h/hr wouldn't happen before is because i thought the two leads would never end up together (cliched, predictable)... but in light of recent evidence i've shifted my opinions

AK: I did my 5-point theory not too heavily focused on Ron’s feelings for Hermione, but skimming generally focusing on the important points, the turning points. However, if people choose to deny this, then I am more than happy to come up with masses of Canon evidence for this.

and i'm sure the canon evidence you provide would still be scenes i'd interpret as friendly moments. unless of course you have some canon ev where ron explicitly states "i love you hermione." i guess we should agree to disagree on ron liking hermione :)

GilyAnn: Just because a person has a lot of screen time it doesn't mean that she is the lead or the heroine. Being the heroine it doesn't mean that she has to be on your face all the time. This is something that it's usually used now but it certainly doesn't have to be that way. There have been cases were the heroine is a character consider to be on the back. This usually in mystery novels. Harry is the hero, alone. JKR has been clear on that. His love interest will be someone aside from there and she doesn't have to be the in your face kind of thing. Ron and Hermione's are his sidekicks. JKR defined that.

"Just because a person has a lot of screen time it doesn't mean that she is the lead or the heroine." of course it does. if she's the only female with a lot of screen time and the only real female character we get to know well in the books, that makes her the female lead. simple

EricaM:I always thought that Ron hinting at H/G then was more a joke. Most of CoS had people hinting at H/G, Hagrid, Draco the twins, Ron etc. It was the running schtick of CoS. I think that now that he realises that his baby sister is dating, he feels that Harry is 'safest' for his sister, not necessarily that he is aware of any feelings Harry might have for her, or she for him, for that matter.

i agree with your point that it possibly was just schtick. i do also agree that now ron is a h/g shipper

EricaM: Doesn't Harry brush Ginny off a couple of times after that, like when he and Hermione are arguing about rescuing Sirius? Though he he does think shes was a good player, Harry isn't too wowed by Ginny's playing - wasn't he critical of her not being able to get the snitch in time to win the game at one point? However, he thinks Hermione has brilliant ideas, between the DA and the Quibbler article [I], she is the one to orchestrate periods of relief for Harry.

exactly. harry and ginny just don't connect as of book 5. while it's debateable whether or not ginny has feelings (i now personally think so)., i don't think harry feels anything. that and they don't really share a relationship. they only real connection they have is the CoS life-saving bit, but harry's forgotten all about that and it really hasn't served any purpose post-CoS. harry has much more respect and connection for hermione; the example you give is excellent.

quick interjection-- on the whole hippogriff thing-- i'm pretty indifferent on the matter, anyways:

FlyingPhoenix: I still don't believe and I still don't buy H/G or R/Hr just because Hermione don't show the slightest way to change. You call it mothering I call it careing or better I call it take Harry as her number 1 and nobody else. Not Ron, not Krum and not even her own parents (If you think different about christmas just look at the end how she free herself from her mother which she didn't saw since a whole year).

agreed. i also interpret the supposed 'motherly' feelings as deep caring

hermy_weasley2: Anyway, remember, we see things through HARRY's eyes, and the fact that Ginny came up a lot more in this book was only because she came up a lot more in Harry's POV. Has she moved on? Yes. Is she over Harry? No.

i do agree that ginny still feels something. i don't think harry feels anything, however.

GilyAnn: Ron hints thru all CoS. Everyone else dropped it by the middle of the book and Ron ketp on going. He certainly doesn't seem to mind that Harry takes Ginny to the ball. He may simply think that Ginny is best suited for Harry. Heck there is even a very funny fanfic about that. Also if all those people 'hinted' at H/G. Couldn't it be a form of Ironic foreshadowing? After all Ron was joking but who is it that says that everything that Ron jokes with comes true or something like that.

decent argument you make... while you interpret the moments as having possible foreshadowing... i just thought ron preferred his best friend instead of 'mysterious men'.... it makes you think tho...

Mad-I Moody: She only garners this status because she is a female. If Harry had two male best friends, then Harry would be the lead and his two best friends would be sidekicks. Supporting leads. I don't know. Hermione is the "female lead" because she's a female, not because she's more important than Ron.

that may be true, but she still _is_ the female lead

AvadaKedavra: Gily Ann has nicely expressed Ron's reaction to the kiss, which is the reason why I think any person taking the line of argument that Ron may not like Hermione in "that way" is being really ridlicious and denying beautiful canon, in other words, doing a "fudge".

or we just have different interpretations of events, not that we're denying canon... until ron explicitly states his feelings, it's all up in the air

Bloodpop: Who threw the most insults in this book? Emotional level of a teaspoon anyone? No in this one JK allowed Ron to grow up, and for the first time Ron was the more mature of the two, the two being Ron and Hermione. Instead of going off half-cocked, he tried reasoning, and coaxing her into to agreeing with him.

he grew up. so what? doesn't prove conclusively anything.

Bloodpop: It's like I said before, she was a bit put off for having Valentine's day come and go without so much as a peep out the boy she has her eye on, you can almost hear her thinking " No, Harry isn't as bad as Ron, atleast he went on a date with his crush, albeit a very short date, but it was still something." So all you H/Hr, answer this question.

i disagree with your interpretation. i think that she said the comment because she thought harry wasn't quite as clueless in girls as ron was... and nothing more than that. this doesn't mean that hermione thought that ron liked her and was mad at the valentine's day situation. i think you might be extrapolating a trivial point

Bloodpop: Why did Hermione feel she had to cut Ron down a notch, when he had'nt affronted her, in any visible way?

maybe she didn't think she was cutting him down. maybe she was commenting on the boys' general cluelessness. no evidence here of feelings.

Bloodpop: Harry noticed Ginny plenty in this book, from her celebrating his return from the trial to her suddenly realizing she spoke to him, to the comfortable scene in the library with the chocalote egg and Ginny looking wind swept. I have a feeling Harry's knight will be quivering in front of Ron's queen plenty in the last two books.

maybe 2 paragraphs of interaction between the two, in the books total. no evidence of feelings on harry's side. compare this to hr/h who share a deep relationship and care for each other. not to say h/g couldn't develop.. but i don't see it as likely.

h/hr rules; all for now--
BT

[Grace Granger]

GREAT POSTS HMS Harmony! :clap: Y'all know who you are....backslaps all around!

Maybe it's the four year difference, because I'm thirty and my grown up brain was repulsed reading the whole Yule Brawl sequence. Ron was completely out of line. He accused Hermione of being disloyal(the hypocrisy on that point alone is mindblowing) and intimated very strongly that the only reason why Krum would ask her out was to spy on Harry and not because she was attractive or worth taking out on her own. I just don't find a fourteen year old girl on her first date and enjoying it being put down and humiliated in public by a best friend very funny at all.

But the worst part was that he actually enjoyed making her miserable and he comes off looking like an infantile jerk who puts his feelings about everyone else and that's not Ron. I want Ron with someone who brings out the absolute best in him because he deserves to be that and not some jealous git who's in the dark as to why he does what he does(yes, an H/Hr who loves Ron. It's possible ;)) That's why I have such hopes for a R/L pairing. Her love and gentle encouragment would do more to bring out the best in him rather than the bickering because he would feel confident to make the changes himself rather than being prodded to in order to meet an expectation.

I don't think I could have said it better myself. When Ron mentioned "Vicky", I had honestly thought that that was cute, but everything else was blown out of proportion. He accused Hermione of being a traitor and that Krum only went out with her to find out information on Harry. Which in other words is saying that she isn't good enough for him. I thought it was a horrible argument. I was expecting any minute for Harry to jump in and was a bit ticked that he only intervened when everyone else was starting to look at them. And I was expecting for Krum to come back, Hermione to take her punch and splash it unto Ron! :evil: He deserved it!

What's the deal with this Chocolate? Why'd you come up with that name? I don't think I'm ever going to eat chocolate with such love again. :no: :sigh:

[sone]

Well like I said before Grace, if I was Hermione, I would of hit Ron so hard that his face would touch the ground before his knees did.

[_BT_]

my take on the yule ball issue

Maybe it's the four year difference, because I'm thirty and my grown up brain was repulsed reading the whole Yule Brawl sequence. Ron was completely out of line. He accused Hermione of being disloyal(the hypocrisy on that point alone is mindblowing) and intimated very strongly that the only reason why Krum would ask her out was to spy on Harry and not because she was attractive or worth taking out on her own. I just don't find a fourteen year old girl on her first date and enjoying it being put down and humiliated in public by a best friend very funny at all.

i see what your saying. when i read the scenes, i too picked up ron's behavior and the humiliation. however i guess i'm kinda weird in also finding the scene overall kinda humorous.

But the worst part was that he actually enjoyed making her miserable and he comes off looking like an infantile jerk who puts his feelings about everyone else and that's not Ron. I want Ron with someone who brings out the absolute best in him because he deserves to be that and not some jealous git who's in the dark as to why he does what he does(yes, an H/Hr who loves Ron. It's possible ) That's why I have such hopes for a R/L pairing. Her love and gentle encouragment would do more to bring out the best in him rather than the bickering because he would feel confident to make the changes himself rather than being prodded to in order to meet an expectation.

exactly why i don't think r/hr would work all that well. now i _like_ r/l a lot though :agree:

[GilyAnn]

If it can be considered foreshadowing in the case of H/G, it can also be considered foreshadowing in the case of H/Hr.

Ironic foreshadowing. Yes you are correct it could be consider Ironic foreshadowing if the H/Hr pairing would happend. Right now is simly a clue that will not be resolved until the end of the series. If one ship does not happend then the other 'clues' were simply red hearings. One thing that the Ironic foreshadowing of H/HR has against is that Harry denied this relationship. I know you won't agree with me but a good author will never denied his pair to then pair them up in the end. But I know you we won't agree there.

My question concerning the above argument would be, if ever Harry comes to any realization, at any point in the story, can it be assumed that he formerly believed the opposite to the point that he has just realized?

Can you repharased that question I really didn't understand what you were trying to ask.

PS: By the way, GilyAnn do you worry that you ship could melt?

LOL, No to be honest. The only thing I worried is Voldemort. Other than that not really.

I wanted to mole over the information put forth by JK, but the secondary reason is that I don't feel I have to defend my ships anymore. JK surely, although very subtely put the final nails in the rival ships, and I now feel more then ever that the outcome of the series main "ships" will be R/H, H/G.

Oh this is just for the kicks of it! Bloodpop (btw :welcome:) We are just having fun!

had to throw my 2 cents in this one. if hermione isn't the female lead, then what is she? the female side-character? being the only real female character with any significant screen-time, that makes her the main female character (i.e. the lead). now i know you're saying she's just a sidekick to harry, (which is true), but doesn't defeat the point that she still is the ONLY main female character, making her the lead. one of the reasons i thought h/hr wouldn't happen before is because i thought the two leads would never end up together (cliched, predictable)... but in light of recent evidence i've shifted my opinions

::sights:: Still not getting my point. Let's take Ginny out of this argument. Ginny doesn't exist in the HP series. Let's take the hottest ship at the moment (yes boys and girls if you haven't joined it you are late) HARRY AND LUNA. Having screen time it doesn't guaranteed being the female lead. Let me explained.

Right now Harry is a hero stand alone. Ron and Hermione are his sidekicks. Harry stands alone right now. His future herooine, love interest or female lead has not come into playing yet. She hasn't appear. Right now JKR COULD decide to pair up Harry with Luna and have her become the female lead, love interest or herooine or whatever you want to call it. And that would be Ok and it would be understandable and itwould be allowed. Do I like it? :no: HELL NO! But that is out of my hands. Having screan time it doesn't mean that it will guaranteed that Hermione would be the Love Interest.

This is a very Old techinique that jkr decided to resusitate. AGAIN, Do I like it? :no: Do I have a choice? :no:

The herooine of a Hero don't have to be the in your face kind of thing. With constant screaning time. I'm surprised that you all don't understand my point. We discouss this a lot of threads back.

"Just because a person has a lot of screen time it doesn't mean that she is the lead or the herooine." of course it does. if she's the only female with a lot of screen time and the only real female character we get to know well in the books, that makes her the female lead. simple

My explanation is above.

exactly. harry and ginny just don't connect as of book 5. while it's debateable whether or not ginny has feelings (i now personally think so)., i don't think harry feels anything. that and they don't really share a relationship. they only real connection they have is the CoS life-saving bit, but harry's forgotten all about that and it really hasn't served any purpose post-CoS. harry has much more respect and connection for hermione; the example you give is excellent.

On the contrary Harry and Ginny conected nicely in OoP. They do speak to each other and became friends. Pity that you don't see how nice friends they became.


Gily Ann

[Hawk 92]

Ironic foreshadowing. Yes you are correct it could be consider Ironic foreshadowing if the H/Hr pairing would happend. Right now is simly a clue that will not be resolved until the end of the series. If one ship does not happend then the other 'clues' were simply red hearings. One thing that the Ironic foreshadowing of H/HR has against is that Harry denied this relationship. I know you won't agree with me but a good author will never denied his pair to then pair them up in the end. But I know you we won't agree there

Kind of like Ginny saying that she is going out with Dean Thomas. For now its a statement and can only be proved a red herring if H/G happens. But what happens if we find out that they have been dating for awhile in book 6. Wouldn't it be easier to simply say that they won't last. I don't think anyone thinks that they will. But that this is a red herring is truly doubtful.

Cheers!

[_BT_]

GilyAnn

Right now Harry is a hero stand alone. Ron and Hermione are his sidekicks. Harry stands alone right now.

I see what you're saying int hat Hermione is a 'sidekick' of Harry. But regardless if she's a sidekick or not... it doesn't matter. hermione, in having the largest female part (heck the only real big female part at all)... leaves her to be the main female character, i.e. the lead. It does not matter if Harry is alone, or if harry doesn't end up with hermione. the fact that hermione is the main female character makes her the lead.

His future herooine, love interest or female lead has not come into playing yet.

ok now i think i know where the confusion is coming from. i think we're defining female lead differently. i mean it only to be the main female character in the series, which at this point is hermione.

On the contrary Harry and Ginny conected nicely in OoP. They do speak to each other and became friends. Pity that you don't see how nice friends they became.

i wouldn't say they've became nice friends and had all sorts of connection. i would say that (because of the development of ginny in book 5) some sort of foundation has been laid, however, and a relationship could develop from it. i personally don't think it will happen, but that's just my opinion



BT

[sone]

I'm sorry, I just had to post this part of the book here.....I found it very funny.


Harry was a hero in the Gryffindor common room that night. Daringly, Fred and George had put an Enlargement Charm on the front cover of The Quibbler and hung it on the wall, so that Harry's giant head gazed down upon the proceedings, occasionally saying things like "THE MINISTRY ARE MORONS" and "EAT DUNG, UMBRIDGE" in a booming voice. Hermione did not find this very amusing; she said it interfered with her concentration, and she ended up going to bed early out of irritation.


Yes, I imagine it did interfere with her concentration. :eyebrows: :rotfl: :lol: :elaugh:

[GilyAnn]

Kind of like Ginny saying that she is going out with Dean Thomas. For now its a statement and can only be proved a red herring if H/G happens. But what happens if we find out that they have been dating for awhile in book 6. Wouldn't it be easier to simply say that they won't last. I don't think anyone thinks that they will. But that this is a red herring is truly doubtful.


Hawk I didn't understand what you tried to say in here. Can you explain that again? Sorry!

Let me clarified the Ironic foreshadowing. Ironic foreshadowing is something like making a joke. In this case on another person expense. Example: Draco saying "Potter you got yourself a girlfriend" Ron joking on H/G. It's street calling for Ironic foreshadowing. The person is joking with the other one on something that comes true in the end. Foreshadowing alone could be the Chocolate in the library thing for example.

Let's take our mind off shipping. For example Ron joked that Harry will had a windfall of money and he was going to have a fight with a friend. In GoF Ron and Harry had a fight and Harry ended up winning the Tournament.

Gily Ann

Edit:
Harry was a hero in the Gryffindor common room that night. Daringly, Fred and George had put an Enlargement Charm on the front cover of The Quibbler and hung it on the wall, so that Harry's giant head gazed down upon the proceedings, occasionally saying things like "THE MINISTRY ARE MORONS" and "EAT DUNG, UMBRIDGE" in a booming voice. Hermione did not find this very amusing; she said it interfered with her concentration, and she ended up going to bed early out of irritation.

Sone:
Oh! the picture in my mind! :lol: :lol:

[_BT_]

I'm sorry, I just had to post this part of the book here.....I found it very funny.


Harry was a hero in the Gryffindor common room that night. Daringly, Fred and George had put an Enlargement Charm on the front cover of The Quibbler and hung it on the wall, so that Harry's giant head gazed down upon the proceedings, occasionally saying things like "THE MINISTRY ARE MORONS" and "EAT DUNG, UMBRIDGE" in a booming voice. Hermione did not find this very amusing; she said it interfered with her concentration, and she ended up going to bed early out of irritation.


Yes, I imagine it did interfere with her concentration. :eyebrows: :rotfl: :lol: :elaugh:

lol, it'd bet it did. word :tu:

[Narami]

GilyAnn:
I think we can all agree here that Hermione is the "female main character" in the HP series. In literature the parts of the characters don't change even after they die. She is the lead female since the start and will be until the end; however it could be possible that Harry's "heroine" (as you call her, but I don't think he needs one, he just needs a partner maybe) hasn't be presented yet, that roll is still to be chosen, but the main female part, the lead, principal female figure etc. etc. is Hermione. :)

[Hawk 92]

Hawk I didn't understand what you tried to say in here. Can you explain that again? Sorry!

Let me clarified the Ironic foreshadowing. Ironic foreshadowing is something like making a joke. In this case on another person expense. Example: Draco saying "Potter you got yourself a girlfriend" Ron joking on H/G. It's street calling for Ironic foreshadowing. The person is joking with the other one on something that comes true in the end. Foreshadowing alone could be the Chocolate in the library thing for example.

Let's take our mind off shipping. For example Ron joked that Harry will had a windfall of money and he was going to have a fight with a friend. In GoF Ron and Harry had a fight and Harry ended up winning the Tournament.

You said that Ginny was lying about dating Dean and was only saying this to provoke Ron. So Ginny was having a joke at Dean's and Ron's expense. So it fits your criteria as established here.

Cheers!

[evaluna]

Lack of Validity in Comparison of Ron and James: Response

Original post by GilyAnn
I’m not comparing R/Hr with james and Lily. What I was saying is that Love can grow from Hate. And that Lily and James are part of that line that jkr seems to like. The fact is that James was an immature guy. Who still did had his fun but not in front of Lily. Even Sirius said that. I'm not comparing one with the other. I'm simply saying that there are many ways to fall in love with someone.

GilyAnn, just to restate, no one’s disputing the point that there are many paths to love. There are. But it weakens your case to use the exception [love from hate] to prove the rule [love from friendship, admiration, respect, or other positive emotion]. The ‘love from hate’ doesn’t apply to anyone in canon except Lily and, given James’ major character transformation, this position is arguable. The love didn’t come from hate but rather from a lack of hate, once James had transformed. It was never ‘love from hate’ from James’ POV. In particular all this seems irrelevant to anything regarding Ron. Just to clarify.


Original post by GilyAnn
[quote]
Quote: evaluna

Remember James obviously made huge changes in basic character to win Lily's love, almost a superhuman effort, based on his own feelings. Of course, as I've said before, it's not to say Ron won't row over

[Response: GilyAnn]
I'm sorry no he didn't. If he *really* would have done that superhuman effort he would have stopped the moment she felt discousted at him. What changed was his perspective, his mature. Ron is 20 times better than James. Ron never hexes people out of the pure pleasure or because he is 'bored', Ron feels compassion for people and even questions his beliefs in some area.

I'm sorry but Ron is NEVER like James. James was a cruel a*****. Ron has never been one. [/quote]

Actually James [i]did[/i] begin to change, right on the spot, when he stopped taunting and humiliating Snape on witnessing Lily’s contempt for his actions. Others pointed this out to me, in fact [[b]Sone, Ecthelion[/b], & others?] So I’ll let my comment stand. And since the point of my post was that Ron and James are not comparable, we don’t disagree there. I’ve already stated that Ron is not as immature or cruel as James was before undergoing his “transformation”.


Original post by GilyAnn
[quote]Did James and Lily failed? No they went out until the end. There is no reason why a relationship like that will failed. And by all means Ron and Hermione's relationship is not a love - hate relationship. They are friends, Ron has shared his family with Hermione, They study toguether and do lot's of things toguether. Ron and Hermione relationship is not the same as Lily and James and jet they survived and live thru. Who's to say that Ron and Hermione won't be the same way or even better?[/quote]

[b]GilyAnn[/b], the point I was trying to make – and which you agreed with earlier [above]– is that Ron is not comparable with James. Therefore, IMO it just doesn’t hold, nor does it behoove Ron’s character, to continue to be compared next to James in sentences back-to-back in the same paragraph. The rest is a matter of opinion, and we agree to disagree.



[b]Hermione as Female Lead[/b]

Original post by GilyAnn

[quote]I'm sorry but Hermione isn't the female lead. I just don't see her that way. JKR has always described her as the sidekick, she categorizes her as a strong character just the same way Mcgonagall is also. I'm sorry I also don't agree that Hermione and Harry became the two key student characters. I think OoP made the way to separate the trio. Which is why I think it will happend later on. Ron is usually the trendsetter. Next year Harry will be the 'distant' one.
[/quote]


LOL. Err…well, OK, but given that it’s Harry’s POV, then if Harry is isolated, we’re not likely to see much of Ron’s trendsetting, whatever that might be [?]. And..emm…let’s be honest…by any stretch of the imagination, don’t you think Hermione gets just a [i]bit[/i] more screen time than McGonagall? Relative to any other female character, Hermione is given so much more screen time, character development, action, and time and attention from Harry’s POV throughout the series that there’s just no comparison. Especially as the books progress [from Book 3 onward], Hermione arguably gets as much screen time [if not more screen time and attention from Harry] as Ron or any other character. By OoP, Hermione is arguably even closer to Harry than Ron, and appears to get the most screen time of all Harry’s friends, mentors, or teachers. Additionally Hermione gets more of Harry’s time, attention, respect, and consideration than any other female and arguably than any other character, including Ron. Persons may choose to interpret this one way or the other, of course, but by OoP Hermione clearly fits the bill in every sense both for female lead [whether platonic or romantic] and for lead partner [platonic] more generally, being far and away ahead of all others in this regard. Implication: though Harry cares about all his friends and mentors, by end of OoP, Hermione is more important to Harry than anyone else. So..err..that might just qualify Hermione as female lead, yeah? Any questions, please refer to [b]Flying Phoenix’s[/b] recent repost of [b]Mad-Eye Mike’s[/b] brilliant essay ;)

I see MEM and many other are using my lines ;) but as they got there first I guess I’m using theirs! Cheers MEM and all other Hermione supporters -- I am in obvious total agreement!



[b]Yule Ball Revisited from Hermione’s POV [Flying Phoenix][/b]

[i]Original post by Flying Phoenix[/i]

[quote]
[b]Ron use at first Harry to describe her crime. IMO its important that Ron get her only as he mentioned Harry.[/b]

And here Ron tells her she dos exactly that and bring Harry into danger. That explain why Hermione looks like slapped and her voice is shaking. [b]Its because of what Ron says and not because of Ron.[/b] Thats interest.

[b]She looked outraged and did say "Never" two times as if she need to show how impossible it is that she ever help someone else than Harry[/b] That she would ever use her knowledge to help someone other than Harry.

Its very important in this brawl R/HR that Hermione react the most and intensive as Ron questioning Hermiones loyality to Harry. [b]She don't act like that because off Ron she do it because off that what he say about Her priorities of Harrys importance in her live.[/b]

[b]There you see R--->Hr and Hr--->H. Hermione react the most as Ron questioning her loyality for Harry. [/b]

[b]She said this "Never!" What she already said in PoA as Harry asked if she were even by the game. She said she would "never!" miss a game with him. In other words Hermione would never act against Harry this one can even implied that she would never fall for Ron. Because this is against Harry.[/b][/quote]

[b]FP[/b]: This is an amazing in-depth analysis of this scene and I agree with this interpretation [I bolded some stuff for emphasis]. Bang on regarding Hermione’s motivations. It totally rings true with Hermione’s character and her behaviour and actions to that point. The thought that someone could think that Hermione would ever betray Harry is almost inconceivable to her –- she is shaking with outrage and shock in this scene, and finds herself in the unpleasant situation of having to defend her integrity and her character on the spot to her accuser [Ron, who is one of her best friends, can you figure?] and even more to her other best friend, lest he think for even a moment that the accusations hold a shred of merit. And it is definitely possible that there are some subtextual implications [< repeatedly "never" putting Krum or by implication anyone ahead of Harry], foreshadowing that Hermione would never consider anyone before Harry, in whatever context.



[b]Flying as a Metaphor for Love [Flying Phoenix][/b]

[i]Original post by Flying Phoenix[/i]
[quote]Now she sit on a creature, where Harry himself said its not that comfortable like on a broom and you has the fear to fall down if it move the wings,behind Harry and mutter she don't like it but hold at the same time tighter at Harry. Just turn this image and let say its not flying its love. Love is too unlogical if Hermione falls in love she can't run into the Library and look it up. Her doubts won't vanish that say she don't like it to be in doubt so she hold tighter on Harry in that case.
If we say general Flying is in HP that image of love than you get an interest view. Quiditch is Harrys favouriet sport and he love it to fly. He has the natur talent of a flyer, [b]keep in mind love runs in Harrys veins so he is a naturel guy for love.[/b] If he fly he feels free and better than ever in his whole life and again if you take this flying for love than you get what is it with this serie. Harry get from Hermione gifts in connection to Quiditch which is again after my theory connected to love. Hermione never missed a game of Harry and she said she would never miss it. In this view is this again highly interest. Just look at PoA as Harry saw his crush Cho at Quiditch and how important Quiditch is against the Dementors in this book.[/quote]

[b]FP[/b], this is beautiful. [b]Flying as a metaphor for love.[/b] AND [b]Harry as metaphor for source of love,[/b] foreshadowing perhaps that Harry will give love to Hermione. It lends the hippogriff symbolism that much more power, since Harry and Hermione flew on it together. BTW I always agreed with your interpretation as to why Hermione was nervous and muttered she didn’t like it [i]whilst[/i] nonetheless holding to Harry quite tightly. If this particular aspect of the ‘flight on Hippogriff as romantic imagery’ is foreshadowing – specifically that Hermione is nervous about taking off on the wings of love and holds on to Harry, who is fearless [oh and I can only hope] -- then perhaps [i]Harry[/i] will be the one to come forward? Perhaps Harry will take the lead and once more give her his courage, his strength of heart, just as she gives him her insight, her light.



[b]The Hippogriff as Romantic Love Symbolism: Clarification[/b]

[i]Original post by Sirius83[/i]
[quote]
The literal representation of the scene is Harry and Hermione are riding a Hippogriff to save Sirius. The symbolic representation is that Harry and Hermione are placed together through the Greek symbol of romantic love.

The symbolism here is not in the dialogue, but in the imagery set by the creature JKR chose to use.

Now, what if JKR did intend it to be impossible love? To that i say this - pigs do fly!(Ron's owl) Okay seriously now, I'll put this straight as i see it. There is no concievable reason why JKR would go through the trouble of using all that symbolism to say that H/Hr isn't going to happen. On the contrary, she has told us her clues are burried, right? By digging into the meanings of things we should be finding clues that tell us what is to come, not clues that tell us what isn't to come.[/quote]

Also, just to add a bit to Sirius’s great posts on this symbol going way back…persons should note that it won’t do to get excessively focused on the ‘impossible’ bit of the hippogriff representing ‘impossible’ love between Harry and Hermione as a “bad thing”. And see [b]Sirius’s[/b] and [b]noddwyd’s[/b] excellent responses how JKR is showing the “impossible” becomes very “possible” indeed, even actual. Remember, to the Greeks, [i]romantic[/i] love was narrowly defined and did not consist of deeper spiritual and other love attachments. I.e., romantic love itself was generally viewed as ‘impossible’, a near unattainable and often unworthy love model, and typically felt to be highly unsustainable. This explains many things regarding their expectations [marriage was not for true love or soulmates, but rather for social stability and legacy, and was typically preceded and succeeded by other types of ‘love’ relationships that fulfilled a man spiritually and/or physically [not much focus on women, frankly] ] – and in this way they were like many other cultures. Much of the views on the possibility of soulbonding love between a man and woman have to do with the status of women in a given society. Obviously this has changed since Hellenic times of old.

We nowadays and for some many years since have literally held a different view than in times and places past of what can be encompassed in the love between two persons. Per esoteric lore [reflected in Kabbalah, Tao, etc], what we term a modern view of this love has always existed but was not always the majority view in certain times and places. In a deeper sense, JKR is IMO showing where her emphasis or loyalty lies – that is, with the idea that a unity of souls, a deep and abiding true love between man and woman [i]IS[/i] possible. The impossible [per philosophies of ancient Greece et al] becomes possible [per longstanding esoteric and metaphysical truths, which interestingly have strongly shaped our modern definition of love].

At an even higher level, the very existence of this love transforms the impossible into the possible, despair into hope, darkness into light. Now, look at whom JKR uses to symbolise the triumph of true love over the idea of impossibility of true love’s existence? Harry and Hermione. On a hippogriff. The hippogriff does indeed symbolise love, a love between two persons, a true and pure love that in ancient societies by definition may have been considered impossible. NOT that Hermione and Harry are impossible, but rather that this kind of true and deep love [traditionally considered "impossible" to begin with] [i]does exist[/i], and it exists [i]because of them[/i]. They have made the impossible possible, because that's what love does. Changes the world. Through emanation. See prior posts! Thanks very much for your time on that, all :)



[b] R/Hr Shippers: Inside Their Heads [a case study]…[/b]

[i]Original post by Avada Kedavra[/i]
[quote]I’m not expecting a whirlwind romance, one that we get to hear a lot, and one that satisfies me a lot. All I am expecting is for them to get together, as an important subplot.[/quote]

That’s fair enough, [b]AK[/b]. I rather guess I [i]am[/i] expecting all those things, particularly the part about love being critical to the storyline from Harry’s POV and critical in his overcoming or turning or somehow superceding Voldy. But at least we understand the other’s point of reference.


[b]Great posts! Hawk, Turambar, FP, MEM, Sirius, Grace, HayCheng, noddwyd, and all my other fellow shippers and travellers! [/b] And all the rest of ye who have entered here and have not abandoned hope…

Cheers!

[Grace Granger]

I love the signature GilyAnn. Cutest picture ever. but shouldn't the HMS Harmony be called HMS Harmione? If you've got to omit letters to make the ship work.......you're as ill fated as the Titanic!

Oh lighten up, I'm joking! This thread was getting too calm.
**Watches gleefully as HMS Harmony hits a large and fairly obvious iceburg known to most as 'Ron.' **

My bold emphasis...
Hem hem... HMS Heron, anyone? At least ours is a real word. :rolleyes:

[noddwyd]

actually, heron is a real word. Its a bird similar to a stork, there are a lot of them near where I live. They are very beautiful.

[GryffindorGal]

actually, heron is a real word. Its a bird similar to a stork, there are a lot of them near where I live. They are very beautiful.


Horribly discordant voices though ..

[noddwyd]

yeah, that's true...
by the way, great posts everyone. I really enjoyed the whole arguement about Hermione being the female lead. Very amusing.

[Turambar]

Nice post Evaluna. If Harry and Hermione had fallen off Buckbeak or had in some way failed to complete their mission to rescue Sirius then the symbolism could be seen in a negative light. But that episode was all about completing a difficult task together, successfully. Just as Hermione successfully drew Harry out of the room Buckbeak was in in OOTP, after others were unable to. I also like the idea of Harry being the bold one: he was sitting at the front of the hippogriff and he was also the first to face Buckbeak and fly on him in the class.

[_BT_]

Narami: I think we can all agree here that Hermione is the "female main character" in the HP series. In literature the parts of the characters don't change even after they die. She is the lead female since the start and will be until the end; however it could be possible that Harry's "heroine" (as you call her, but I don't think he needs one, he just needs a partner maybe) hasn't be presented yet, that roll is still to be chosen, but the main female part, the lead, principal female figure etc. etc. is Hermione.

couldn't have said it better :agree:

[Mad Eye Mike]

Evaluna - Great post, but what did you mean people were using your 'lines'? Btw, a new and improved Firebolt just came in, is it yours? :tu:

Phoenix - Great first person POV posts, keep them coming. :tu:

[aurelius]

Note: This is not a shipper, but an insight/analysis on the Ron and Hermione relationship and possible couples in the series.

Firstly, more on the…

Ron and Hermione:

1. GoF: If Ron supposedly "likes" Hermione, then she should have been his number one choice for the Yule Ball right from the start (like the way Cho was Harry’s first choice)...if he liked her, then why waste so much time asking the other girls when to begin with - should have just asked Hermione straight away...which then goes back to my post earlier on how Ron only sees Hermione as "one of the boys"...and if you read carefully, Ron doesn't really ask Hermione out officially as his date, it states...

But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right - you are a girl..." (note: in the book "are" is emphasized...meaning Ron finally noticed that she was a girl and it took him all these years to figure it out...and not "one of the boys"...hence why Hermione’s response was cold…)
"Oh, well spotted," she said acidly
"Well - you can come with ONE of us!"
"No, I can't," snapped Hermione
"Oh, come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has..."

This to me seems as though it was an act of desperation, they (Ron and Harry) needed a date - and fast...I think that Ron is also surprised that someone asked Hermione to the Ball, because well - he's never looked at her like that before - it's always just been Hermione - Hermione, Miss-Know-It-All...Hermione, one of the boys, Hermione, always there to help you get out of a sticky situation...and I don't think he was jealous that Hermione went with Krum, I think the obsessive personality of Ron was coming out - Ron went from knowing everything that Hermione did to not knowing who she was going to the Ball with...I think that he just wanted to know who it was and surprised at the same time that someone asked Hermione out (if in doubt, look at the way Ron reacts when he finds out about Ginny dating...).

Regarding the kiss in OOTP (correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't this before a Quiddich match), I think it was more of a good luck kiss than anything else...

Hermione and Krum:

This relationship I think will not go anywhere, for one, I think that Hermione is just flattered at the fact that for the first time, someone saw “her”, just Hermione and not as Hermione, Miss-Know-It-All. And the fact that it’s not just some guy who likes her, it’s the fact that it’s Viktor Krum, supposedly the best Quiddich player, popular and girls flock around him…this would not only just flatter her, but also make her feel better about herself – her being socially insecure…

Harry and Ginny:

In OOTP, we finally got to know the only girl in the Weasley family and so did Harry. I think that this relationship between the two is more of a brother-sister type relationship…I think in this book, Harry finally sees a matured Ginny rather than the little girl he first met that went scarlet red every time he was around. He admires her, she’s grown up a lot, and he sees that there is much courage in her and there is a lot of untapped talent within her, and the fact that he can relate to her about what it feels to be possessed by Voldemort shows that he has that respect for her…

Harry and Cho:

Well, this ended before it even began. For one, I think Cho was confused on how she felt for Harry…Harry was the only one that witnessed Cedric’s death and that this was their only connection. Cho just lost her boyfriend and needed to be comforted, needed someone to talk, needed to get things off her chest, to have a good cry about the whole thing and who better to talk to than the only person that was there – Harry…and then in the end I think that she did start to feel something for him, but it was too late…Harry had given up on her…

And last but not least…




Harry and Hermione:

I think this relationship will actually blossom, if not in Book 6…then it would be in Book 7 – slowly but surely…there are a lot of subtle signs for these two…Firstly, there’s the photo that is circulating the internet for the PoA movie – I’m sure you have all seen it – it’s the one with Harry and Hermione and he is holding her in a protective hug…in the book, there is nothing that indicates this…I think that JKR is dropping a small hint here, as well as that hug at the end of CoS…once again, the book does not state this…In GoF, Krum was jealous of Harry’s relationship with Hermione and then there’s the kiss at the end of the book, it states:

“Bye, Harry,” said Hermione, and she did something that she has never done before, and kissed him on the cheek...

Harry may had not had the time to ponder on this kiss, I mean come one – he witness the death of Cedric and watched the Dark Lord rise again…

And in OotP, Cho was jealous of Hermione and what she means to Harry…and I think Harry is still realizing or coming to terms with on what Hermione really means to him…If Harry REALLY liked Cho, he would have gone after her when she took off from their Valentine’s date or at least ask Hermione if he could meet her later, but he didn’t…and also the conversation that Harry and Cho had in the corridor regarding the DA list and how it was jinxed and Cho flatly said something like…”your darling/precious Hermione..” (sorry, don’t have my copy with me…), which I think Cho was implying simply that, when it comes to Hermione, in Harry’s eyes, she can’t do anything wrong…in Harry’s eyes, no girl can hold a candle to her…and whether Harry knows it or still yet to realize that his actually loyalty is with Hermione and Cho knows/feels this and sees right through him. With Hermione, her loyalty has always been with Harry and I think that she has always had a soft spot for him since the first year…but with her personality and her social insecurity, I don’t think that she’s the type to be forward with her feelings…she’s very protective of Harry and I think that there is more here than meets the eye…I mean she’s the first one who is almost near to tears when something terrible happened or is about to happen to Harry…

As for the debate about if Hermione is the female lead character - the quick answer to that is YES. The book is written in Harry's point of view, and yes, Hermione is his sidekick and his best friend, she has been with him through thick and thin, Hermione is a centralized character... you hardly see Harry without her - her character was introduced right from the beginning...the characters of Ginny and Cho are just coming to play now or recently...Hermione is the female lead, whether it be sidekick or love interest, if she wasn't, why would Cho be jealous of her if she didn't play an important part in Harry's life...like I said - this is written from Harry's presective, and he sees Hermione as a major part of it...Hermione is female, hence that is why she is the female lead...When Harry needs help with something - spells, support or anything - who does he turn to HERMIONE...

Sorry, about the long post...but I do hope you guys out there have some feedback...

[cloud_9_83]

Okay I'm almost looking forward to getting my head bit off for this since i know i have a bit of an unpopular viewpoint. But here goes! I think Dean and Ginny will last...maybe not long...but i'd say at least half the year because JKR build Ginny up and started making dean more conversational in book five now with ginny more of a main character, i think it will be easier for her to build up dean...if she just meant for ginny to dump someone she would have made up a new character...one that none of us cared about...like michael corner...I think Luna likes Ron. I think Ron likes Hermione. I think Hermione likes Harry. I think that Harry needs someone like Hermione in his life since he's lost so many important people to him and i think that Harry does like Hermione...however i think if anything happens between Harry adn Hermione Ron will become very jealous. I wish there was someone for Neville...i would say luna but i don't really think she's interested and you can hardly make a relationship up because they are the last two people so hey why not pair them up!!

[cloud_9_83]

[QUOTE=aurelius]Harry and Hermione:

I think this relationship will actually blossom, if not in Book 6…then it would be in Book 7 – slowly but surely…there are a lot of subtle signs for these two…Firstly, there’s the photo that is circulating the internet for the PoA movie – I’m sure you have all seen it – it’s the one with Harry and Hermione and he is holding her in a protective hug…in the book, there is nothing that indicates this…I think that JKR is dropping a small hint here, as well as that hug at the end of CoS…once again, the book does not state this…In GoF, Krum was jealous of Harry’s relationship with Hermione and then there’s the kiss at the end of the book, it states:

“Bye, Harry,” said Hermione, and she did something that she has never done before, and kissed him on the cheek...

Harry may had not had the time to ponder on this kiss, I mean come one – he witness the death of Cedric and watched the Dark Lord rise again…

And in OotP, Cho was jealous of Hermione and what she means to Harry…and I think Harry is still realizing or coming to terms with on what Hermione really means to him…If Harry REALLY liked Cho, he would have gone after her when she took off from their Valentine’s date or at least ask Hermione if he could meet her later, but he didn’t…and also the conversation that Harry and Cho had in the corridor regarding the DA list and how it was jinxed and Cho flatly said something like…”your darling/precious Hermione..” (sorry, don’t have my copy with me…), which I think Cho was implying simply that, when it comes to Hermione, in Harry’s eyes, she can’t do anything wrong…in Harry’s eyes, no girl can hold a candle to her…and whether Harry knows it or still yet to realize that his actually loyalty is with Hermione and Cho knows/feels this and sees right through him. With Hermione, her loyalty has always been with Harry and I think that she has always had a soft spot for him since the first year…but with her personality and her social insecurity, I don’t think that she’s the type to be forward with her feelings…she’s very protective of Harry and I think that there is more here than meets the eye…I mean she’s the first one who is almost near to tears when something terrible happened or is about to happen to Harry…

As for the debate about if Hermione is the female lead character - the quick answer to that is YES. The book is written in Harry's point of view, and yes, Hermione is his sidekick and his best friend, she has been with him through thick and thin, Hermione is a centralized character... you hardly see Harry without her - her character was introduced right from the beginning...the characters of Ginny and Cho are just coming to play now or recently...Hermione is the female lead, whether it be sidekick or love interest, if she wasn't, why would Cho be jealous of her if she didn't play an important part in Harry's life...like I said - this is written from Harry's presective, and he sees Hermione as a major part of it...Hermione is female, hence that is why she is the female lead...When Harry needs help with something - spells, support or anything - who does he turn to HERMIONE...
QUOTE]
Sorry that i didn't include this in my last post but i didn't really think about it...anyway...i would just really like to say that i agreed with everythign you said and what you said about the movies....on the second disk of CoS the movie...there's an interview with JKR and she says that the screenwriter hinted to something that she didn't really hint to until the 4th book...now in movie two harry's holding hermiones hand, they hug...and at the end of 4 there's the kiss...and did you notice that during 4 when Ron was being a jerk and being all jealous of Harry...harry and hermione were hanging out...ron didn't really stay friends with hermione during that period...he chose instead to hang out with his brothers...it seems as if the only reason that hermione is really in the group is because harry wants her there...what do you think aruelius?? or anyone??

[aurelius]

Cloud 9 83 - I've never really thought about that Hermione is only in the group because Harry wants her to be...but now that I think about it, it's actually a good point...I mean since they started, Ron wasn't exactly fond of Hermione and Harry most of the time was playing mediator between the two...I mean it states in majority of the books, that Harry would often sit between Ron and Hermione and try to get the both of them to talk to each other...and there is no doubt that Hermione's loyalty lies towards Harry...I mean she's never missed a Quiddich game that Harry has played in - even if it meant using the Time-Turner in PoA (which I got the feeling that she did when Harry asked her if she even went to the game)...She also seems to put in alot of effort when giving Harry a birthday gift, I mean she gave him a Broomstick Servicing Kit...In OOTP - Hermione wasn't present when Ron had won the Quiddich Cup...She was with Harry in the Forest...It's obvious what her priority is....

[FlyingPhoenix]

About the Yule Ball. I do indeed think its funny. See I'm with GilyAnn at this one but I explain why I think its funny. Its not Ron's jealousy or Hermiones reaction its much more the fact that both speaking in a different language. Ron is jealousy because Hermione is there with Krum. But now comes the ironic part. Hermione don't react because Ron is jealousy she react because Ron say Hermione betray Harry. Thats funny if you ask me. I mean he make himself to an idiot but she don't react because of his feelings. To be exactly she just ignor his feelings and act straight as he insult her loyalty about Harry and that is indeed very nice.

Just let look at it if I imagine I were that girl and my best friend would act like that. I did laugh. Really this is ridiciulous. Who I'm that I take that serious if Harry is only my friend? I just laugh about it and might say take a breath before you describe my little crime any further. But what dos Hermione? She gos high like a bomb. As if she always got high like that if Ron mention anything complet stupid. No she react everytime just like that if Ron speak in a complete stupid way about Harry.
You don't start to wonder by that? You don't ask what has this girl?
I did because I really don't see a reason why she should react like that if this is complete ridiciulous what Ron say.
Isn't it strange that Ron, even Ron come to the idea to bring Harry into this? Why not just tell her that Krum is a bad, bad dark wizard and try to get her without any suggestion of Harry? I tell you why because in such case he would never get her like that. She would indeed laugh by that.
Nobody did wondering about Hermiones reaction? Even it was that ridiciulous she react like that. IMO she overact and that is why the Yule Ball turns into a Yule Brawl. Not because Ron was jealousy it was because he did hit a nerv by Hermione and this nerv calls Harry.
This even explain this strange behaiviour which started here by Ron. At this very moment Ron stoped to tell open his opinion.
Hermione was silent because she might get that she did indeed overact at the ball and Ron get that he was jealousy.
Just think about it your friends get or can on hand of this figure out that you are indeed act strangely if Ron mention Harrys name in that conaction. So you keep silence about that and try your self to figure out what the hell that was and why you overacted like that.
About Rons changing in GoF after the Yule Ball he start to disagree with Hermione behind her back. After the ball:

"Well, I thought he must be," she said, shrugging."I knew he couldn't be pure giant, because they're about twenty feet tall. But honestly, all this hysteria about giants. They can't all be horrible...It's the same sort of prejudice that people have towards werewolves...it's just bigotry, isn't it?"Ron looked as though he would have liked to reply scathingly, but perhaps he didn't want another row, because he contented himself with shaking his head disbelievingly while Hermione wasn't looking.

At this moment Ron start to act like that. So he have to be slightly aware that there are feelings which are byond any friendship.

About the symbolize: Hippogriff.
Like I said before I would say this is only a creature which JKR did choice because its fit to Hagrid and his classes without any thinking or meaning of love.
But its OotP what let me believe that JKR knows indeed that the hippogriffs means love. The thestrals are symboles of dead and its important that they use six of them to get to the DoM to rescue Sirius.
This is to compare with book3 (Thats why I disagree that 2 is related to 5 and 3 to 6) In book3 is Harry with Hermione riding the hippogriff and rescue Sirius in that book everything gos right they did rescue Sirius and the hippogriff was a good omen that they will solve this.
In OotP they ride seperate, thats interest if you think that if two on one thestrals is much more logical if they are horse like that say there can two ride it so its logical if three of six see the thestrals than they should take three and not six. Why write six? If she write three that implied H/Hr did ride again one together and that is the worst omen you can create. Its already a bad omen that they ride this creature and want rescue Sirius. There is it already written that this might end very bad.

If I compare book3 with 5 than we have that in book3 are positive signs because off the hippogriffs in book5 is it negative though Buckbeak is there that can mean that Hermione don't die in OotP.
That means book3 and 5 are highly connected because of Sirius and Hippogriff/Thestrals. Connection between 2 and 5 exist only because of the fact that people were afraid of him.
But again between book2 and 4 is more connection because in book2 was the whole school against Harry like in book4 this don't exist in book5. In book5 there are some against him but not all for example; Neville, Dean.
So if you argue that because in book3 was a fight between H/Hr than in book6 will be another than I disagree because book3 is conected to book5. Its look more like that book: 2,4,6 are related to each other and that 3,5,7 are related like 1 and 7 are related to each other.
So if you expect a fight than is it between Harry and Ron. Because the tension from book3 did we have already in book5 if you look how Hermione argue with Harry about Sirius/DoM. Its like her argueing in book3 why she did that with the firebolt. She did it because she wanted him save like in book5 as she didn't believe that Sirius was really in Voldemorts hands and the occlumency lessons she did argue and nagg because she wanted the same like in book3 Kepp him save. So there was this tension again but not the big fight because in book3 wasn't a big fight, either.

About this quote which I posted earlier its interest that Hermione speaks about her opinion about giants and in OotP we see giants.
Now in OotP Hermione speaks about her opinion in things like relationship with Harry that could be another hint that in book6 will be H/Hr

:clap: Nice post evaluna, hawk and Sirius and all members off our ship.

Between: If we are the Titanic than we go down with loooovvvveee.
I think I know who is the sun who might keep melting chocolate.
Nice saling by the way

[GilyAnn]

You said that Ginny was lying about dating Dean and was only saying this to provoke Ron. So Ginny was having a joke at Dean's and Ron's expense. So it fits your criteria as established here.

No because if she was having a go at Ron with Dean and it doesn't happend. Is not a form of Ironicforeshadowing. To be really Ironic foreshadowing the even will have to happen.

GilyAnn, just to restate, no one’s disputing the point that there are many paths to love. There are. But it weakens your case to use the exception [love from hate] to prove the rule [love from friendship, admiration, respect, or other positive emotion]. The ‘love from hate’ doesn’t apply to anyone in canon except Lily and, given James’ major character transformation, this position is arguable. The love didn’t come from hate but rather from a lack of hate, once James had transformed. It was never ‘love from hate’ from James’ POV. In particular all this seems irrelevant to anything regarding Ron. Just to clarify.

Read my posts. It doesn't weaken the argument. I didn't write the book! JKR did, she used that form of love not me. Lily hated James, once he became less of p**** she went out with him. But that didn't stop him from being a p**** to Snape.

Actually James did begin to change, right on the spot, when he stopped taunting and humiliating Snape on witnessing Lily’s contempt for his actions. Others pointed this out to me, in fact [Sone, Ecthelion, & others?] So I’ll let my comment stand. And since the point of my post was that Ron and James are not comparable, we don’t disagree there. I’ve already stated that Ron is not as immature or cruel as James was before undergoing his “transformation”.

You called threatening to take the pants of 'snivellus' a change? I didn't think he changed all that much after that. Yes I do agree Ron is not comparable to James.

LOL. Err…well, OK, but given that it’s Harry’s POV, then if Harry is isolated, we’re not likely to see much of Ron’s trendsetting, whatever that might be [?]. And..emm…let’s be honest…by any stretch of the imagination, don’t you think Hermione gets just a bit more screen time than McGonagall? Relative to any other female character, Hermione is given so much more screen time, character development, action, and time and attention from Harry’s POV throughout the series that there’s just no comparison. Especially as the books progress [from Book 3 onward], Hermione arguably gets as much screen time [if not more screen time and attention from Harry] as Ron or any other character. By OoP, Hermione is arguably even closer to Harry than Ron, and appears to get the most screen time of all Harry’s friends, mentors, or teachers. Additionally Hermione gets more of Harry’s time, attention, respect, and consideration than any other female and arguably than any other character, including Ron. Persons may choose to interpret this one way or the other, of course, but by OoP Hermione clearly fits the bill in every sense both for female lead [whether platonic or romantic] and for lead partner [platonic] more generally, being far and away ahead of all others in this regard. Implication: though Harry cares about all his friends and mentors, by end of OoP, Hermione is more important to Harry than anyone else. So..err..that might just qualify Hermione as female lead, yeah? Any questions, please refer to Flying Phoenix’s recent repost of Mad-Eye Mike’s brilliant essay

:upset: Look I'll just post what I post before:

::sights:: Still not getting my point. Let's take Ginny out of this argument. Ginny doesn't exist in the HP series. Let's take the hottest ship at the moment (yes boys and girls if you haven't joined it you are late) HARRY AND LUNA. Having screen time it doesn't guaranteed being the female lead. Let me explained.

Right now Harry is a hero stand alone. Ron and Hermione are his sidekicks. Harry stands alone right now. His future herooine, love interest or female lead has not come into playing yet. She hasn't appear. Right now JKR COULD decide to pair up Harry with Luna and have her become the female lead, love interest or herooine or whatever you want to call it. And that would be Ok and it would be understandable and itwould be allowed. Do I like it? HELL NO! But that is out of my hands. Having screan time it doesn't mean that it will guaranteed that Hermione would be the Love Interest.

This is a very Old techinique that jkr decided to resusitate. AGAIN, Do I like it? :no: Do I have a choice? :no:

The herooine of a Hero don't have to be the in your face kind of thing. With constant screaning time.

Again for the sake of repetition. Hermione is one of the Central Characters along with Ron. They are his sidekicks. Harry's is the hero Alone.

Gily Ann

[FlyingPhoenix]

Again for the sake of repetition. Hermione is one of the Central Characters along with Ron. They are his sidekicks. Harry's is the hero Alone.

I quote a little bit JKR though I dislike to do such things but I think this make somethings more clear that Hermione is indeed the lead female character:
Why not then a heroine? Why isn't this Helene Potter?
Very good question. I was-- this is weird-- I was writing the books for six months, before I stopped and thought: Well, he's a boy. How did that happen? Why is he a boy? Why isn't it Harriet? And number one, it was too late. Harry was too real by then for me to try to put him in a dress. That wasn't going to work. And then there was Hermione-- and Hermione is an indispensable part of the books and how the adventures happen. And she so much me that I felt no guilt about keeping the hero who had walked into my head. You know, it was uncontrived. It wasn't conscious. That's how he happened. So I kept him that way.

So Hermione is in someways a heroine but still a sidekick and still a the strongest female character. You know this quote; He needs her badly? There is said that Hermione is a strong female character so JKR don't need bring a strong female character in.
Maybe someone might look this up because I didn't found this quote so long.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Again for the sake of repetition. Hermione is one of the Central Characters along with Ron. They are his sidekicks. Harry's is the hero Alone.


And for the sake of getting it correct: Just because Hermione is not the lead character in the HP books does not mean she isn't the lead female. Think of it this way: Ultimately the first Star Wars trilogy is Luke Skywalker's story, but Princess Leia is the leading female character within that story. Even though the overall plot doesn't revolve around her, she's still the leading female in those adventures. The lead male was Luke, the lead female was Leia.

:rotfl: FlyingPhoenix - That was one great essay you posted. How long did it take you to write that? :p

aurelius - Nice analysis of the relationships. :tu:

[FlyingPhoenix]

You mean the Yule Ball scene?

[Mad Eye Mike]

No, that wonderful essay called Harry + Hermione - Ron. That was wonderful! :rotfl: :lol: :p

[GilyAnn]

I quote a little bit JKR though I dislike to do such things but I think this make somethings more clear that Hermione is indeed the lead female character:
Why not then a heroine? Why isn't this Helene Potter?
Very good question. I was-- this is weird-- I was writing the books for six months, before I stopped and thought: Well, he's a boy. How did that happen? Why is he a boy? Why isn't it Harriet? And number one, it was too late. Harry was too real by then for me to try to put him in a dress. That wasn't going to work. And then there was Hermione-- and Hermione is an indispensable part of the books and how the adventures happen. And she so much me that I felt no guilt about keeping the hero who had walked into my head. You know, it was uncontrived. It wasn't conscious. That's how he happened. So I kept him that way.

So Hermione is in someways a heroine but still a sidekick and still a the strongest female character. You know this quote; He needs her badly? There is said that Hermione is a strong female character so JKR don't need bring a strong female character in.
Maybe someone might look this up because I didn't found this quote so long.

Exactly! Harry is a hero stand alone but Hermione is a very important part of the book. Don't confuse one thing with the other. Hermione is a very important part of the books but did she said that she was the lead female. No! Look on how she describes McGonagall also as a strong character and Mrs. Weasley. JKR didn't feel bad that Harry wasn't a girl because she had put in enough strong characters like Hermione to make up for not having a female lead!

Here is when she mentions the others:

This is a question from Bridget from Toronto, and she's 12. Bridget's wondering, "Why did you create a magical society where men and women play such traditional roles? It seems most of the women Wizards pitter and patter around the house while the men do all the dark work."

Rowling: [laughs] That's not entirely true, because if you look at Professor McGonagall, she's a very, very powerful witch, and she's in a position of power. And in fact, if you look at the Hogwarts' staff - I had this discussion with someone the other day - it is exactly 50/50. Although it is true that you do have a headmaster as opposed to a headmistress, but that has not always been the case. As you will find out, there have been equal numbers of headmistresses.
Do Witches patter around the house? No. Mrs. Weasely stays at home, but if you think it's easy raising seven children, including Fred and George Weasely, then I pity… [laughs] Women who've had seven children will not see that as a soft option.

But no, I don't think that's true. I've said this before. I sometimes feel frustrated in that I'm just over halfway through the series. It's like being interrupted halfway through a sentence and someone saying, "I know what you're going to say." No, you don't. When I've finished, then we can have this discussion, because at the end of book seven, then I can talk about everything in a full and frank way. But right at the moment we're only halfway through.

Gily Ann

Edit: Yes Harry needs Hermione's Intelligence badly: Here it is:

She breaks off and then starts to mutter. "It irritates me. It irritates me. What irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly, being asked 'Can we have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side order of chips. I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?' She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.

[Mad-I Moody]

"If I remember correctly, Ron and Hermione are screaming at EACH OTHER during the Yule "Brawl." So they must be verbally abusing each other, right???"

No. Hermione did not verbally abuse Ron. He verbally abused her.

I don't understand how this can be. They both scream at each other. Yeah, Ron picked the initial fight, but c'mon -- he's (a)obviously jealous of Hermione coming to the ball with Krum and (b)thinking, albeit wrongly, that Krum is trying to get Hermione to give him information about Harry/ the TWT. he shouldn't have yelled at her, but hey -- she yells right back and she really lets him have it back in the common room. I personally don't think there is any "verbal abuse" going on during these scenes - I just think it is a heated, immature argument. There is a serious difference.

Im still not quite sure how you worked this one out, considering in my view that it was a kiss for luck, if every kiss for luck is supposed to show 'hidden feelings' then iv cheated on my boyfriend more times than id like to count (whoops!)


So then why is the kiss at the end of GoF (when Hr kisses Harry on the cheek) not a throwaway kiss like this one? Why does the kiss she gives Harry at the end of GoF have more weight than the one she gives Ron in OotP? If anything, she kisses Harry on the cheek at the end of GoF in a comforting, best friend kind of manner. She knows he has been through something terrible -- I can see Mrs. Weasley giving Harry a kiss on the cheek like this one. So, in OotP, she gives Ron a "good-luck" kiss on the cheek. I ask again, why does one mean "romance" and the other mean "just friends"??

Interpretation, m'dears.

Oh, and good morning (or whatever time it is wherever you all are) to shipmates on the HMS Heron and the same to those aboard the HMS Roony, and the HMS Harmony, and all of the other ships I don't know the names for... :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

No, that wonderful essay called Harry + Hermione - Ron. That was wonderful!
Ah this outstanding essay?! Yeah, it took me years to write it. :lol:

Edit: Yes Harry needs Hermione's Intelligence badly: Here it is:

She breaks off and then starts to mutter. "It irritates me. It irritates me. What irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly, being asked 'Can we have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side order of chips. I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?' She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.



Thank you, that you looked it up.
You say he needs her intelligence?! Well, its not written that he need her intelligence badly. Its says only that Hermione is the most brilliant of the three and that Harry need her. Norhing about only her intelligence he need her in other areas, too.
And its important that JKR take Hermione as strong female character at first and not Mcgonagall or Mrs.Weasley that don't say they aren't strong but its say Hermione is the female lead character.
She is that much in HP that JKR don't need to bother that Harry is a boy and the hero because only steps behind him is Hermione a female character which is strong enough to be the female lead character.
This don't say that she is necessary the heroin but you could say it. This don't even say she is that important like Harry but it say she is close behind. But again this don't make the other female characters weaker. Like this first quote say which I posted JKR don't be worry that Harry is a boy because Hermione is maybe the other reason why Harry have to be a boy ;)

[Mad-I Moody]

This was originally part of a longer, essay-like post that I've been working on ;), but I decided to go ahead and post it.

On the Hippogriff as the symbol of love or impossible love:

From Dave's Mythical Creatures:
Griffins and horses were supposed to be mortal enemies. The Hippogriff symbolizes an impossible thing. There is an old expression "Jungentur jam grypes equis" which means "To cross griffons with horses", indicating an impossible scenario.

From Encyclopedia Mythica:
Hippogriff
A legendary animal, half horse and half griffin. Its father was a griffin and its mother was a filly. It is often found in ancient Greek art and appeared largely in medieval legends. It is also a symbol of love.

From Wikipedia:
A Hippogriff is a legendary creature, supposedly the incredibly rare offspring of a griffin and a filly. The reason for its great rarity is that griffins despise horses, which they regard with the same feelings a dog has about a cat. In medieval times there was an expression, "To mate griffins with horses," which meant about the same as the modern expression, "When pigs fly." The hippogriff was therefore a symbol of impossible love.


In Fantastic Beasts, nothing is mentioned about the hippogriff symbolizing love, nor is it mentioned in Hagrids CoMC classes. However, it is recognized in other canon that the hippogriff is a symbol of one of these three things:
1) romantic love
2) impossible love
3) impossiblilty/impossible scenario (Addendum: To signify impossibility or incongruence, Virgil spoke of breeding horses with griffons.)

Let's say it represents romantic love. Harry and Hermione fly on a hippogriff together. Aw, ain't it sweet? ;) Hermione says "I don't like this at all." What can this mean? Can it possibly mean that she doesn't like flying? Does this mean, figuratively, that she doesn't like the prospect of being in love with Harry or vice versa? It's up to interpretation.

Let's say it represents impossible love. Well, Harry and Hermione are riding together on it. Does this mean that their love will never be possible? What can Hermione saying "I don't like this" mean in this context? Can it mean that she doesn't like the idea of her and Harry's love being impossible? Does that change the fact that it is impossible? Up to interpretation.

Let's say it represents an impossible scenario. Harry and Hermione are flying on the back of a winged half eagle half horse after they have traveled back in time to save Harry's godfather from having his soul sucked out through his mouth. In the "real world," this is an impossible scenario. Could this be JKR having a little joke? A little tongue-in-cheek joke, like her flying "Pigs"? She knows this is an impossible, imaginary world. Couldn't this just be a little bit of fun? Again…up to interpretation.

Now, if we are to take Buckbeak/hippogriffs as symbols of love, impossibility, or impossible love, where does that factor in with Beaky's other appearances? How does it fit in with Sirius riding away on Buckbeak and keeping him as a pet? What does it mean that Harry is in the room with Buckbeak when Hermione comes to 12GP at Christmas? What does it mean that Buckbeak (being injured by Kreacher, specifically) was the reason Sirius didn't hear Harry in the fire, ultimately leading to the DoM climax? JKR's animal symbols seem to be, thus far, consistent throughout the books. Slytherin, serpents, snakelike; Griffyndor, part lion, brave, fearless; Pettitgrew, rat, rats out the Potters, sneaky, weak little bugger; Sirius, Dog Star, dog, loyal, playful…so we should assume, therefore, that JKR would be consistent with this symbol as well, shouldn't we? So how do Buckbeak's other appearances in the books signify his role as a representative of romantic love (specifically, for HMS Harmony folks, romantic love between Harry and Hermione? We've heard the theories regarding H/Hr riding on Buckbeak to save Sirius and H being with Buckbeak when Hr comes to 12GP at Christmas. Are there other instances)?

OK, so the hippogriff is the product of a mare and a griffin. Harry, we can all agree, is a "true Griffindor. If he gets together with a filly, then he will, in effect, produce a hippogriff/romantic love (if we operate on the assumption that this is indeed what is symbolized by the hippogriff). Why must the filly then be Hermione? Why could it not be Luna, or Ginny, or Cho, or Pansy Parkinson, or Lavendar Brown? There is no conclusive evidence symbolically linking Hermione to a mare – so to speculate that Hermione is Harry's (The Griffin's) "mare" is merely guesswork. Besides, if all this legend/myth/symbolism holds water, shouldn't the griffin (Harry) hate the mare (whomever)? See below.

On this matter: it can be agreed by all of these symbolic dictionaries and encyclopedias that griffins despised horses. Yet, we see the product of a griffin and a horse in the hippogriff. Could this mean, symbolically, that, assuming Hermione is a "mare, Hermione will "mate" with someone she despises or someone who despises her? Any Hermione/Draco shippers out there? (Forgive me while I retch, but I can't help it. Can you imagine their children? Blegh.) :) Does this mean that Harry, the true Griffyndor/Griffin, will end up with someone he hates/formerly hated?

Let's have a guess at what the last line of this post will be:
…It's all up to individual interpretation! :) This symbolic scenario can be twisted to fit whichever ship you ride. So, by all means, keep debating it. Just know that whatever you say regarding this, no matter which way you ship, is circumstantial.

[FlyingPhoenix]

About the symbolize: Hippogriff.
Like I said before I would say this is only a creature which JKR did choice because its fit to Hagrid and his classes without any thinking or meaning of love.
But its OotP what let me believe that JKR knows indeed that the hippogriffs means love. The thestrals are symboles of dead and its important that they use six of them to get to the DoM to rescue Sirius.
This is to compare with book3 (Thats why I disagree that 2 is related to 5 and 3 to 6) In book3 is Harry with Hermione riding the hippogriff and rescue Sirius in that book everything gos right they did rescue Sirius and the hippogriff was a good omen that they will solve this.
In OotP they ride seperate, thats interest if you think that if two on one thestrals is much more logical if they are horse like that say there can two ride it so its logical if three of six see the thestrals than they should take three and not six. Why write six? If she write three that implied H/Hr did ride again one together and that is the worst omen you can create. Its already a bad omen that they ride this creature and want rescue Sirius. There is it already written that this might end very bad.

If I compare book3 with 5 than we have that in book3 are positive signs because off the hippogriffs in book5 is it negative though Buckbeak is there that can mean that Hermione don't die in OotP.
That means book3 and 5 are highly connected because of Sirius and Hippogriff/Thestrals. Connection between 2 and 5 exist only because of the fact that people were afraid of him.
But again between book2 and 4 is more connection because in book2 was the whole school against Harry like in book4 this don't exist in book5. In book5 there are some against him but not all for example; Neville, Dean.
So if you argue that because in book3 was a fight between H/Hr than in book6 will be another than I disagree because book3 is conected to book5. Its look more like that book: 2,4,6 are related to each other and that 3,5,7 are related like 1 and 7 are related to each other.
So if you expect a fight than is it between Harry and Ron. Because the tension from book3 did we have already in book5 if you look how Hermione argue with Harry about Sirius/DoM. Its like her argueing in book3 why she did that with the firebolt. She did it because she wanted him save like in book5 as she didn't believe that Sirius was really in Voldemorts hands and the occlumency lessons she did argue and nagg because she wanted the same like in book3 Kepp him save. So there was this tension again but not the big fight because in book3 wasn't a big fight, either.

I think this will it do.

[Saint Smythe]

Here's my guess:

Viktor Krum will join the Order of the Phoenix, not just to get close to Hermoine... but it will put the two of them in close proximity for a while.

Then Hermoine will get to watch him die, and the shock will drive her into Ron's arms.

She won't get together with Harry because Harry's going to die at the end of Book 7, and JKR wouldn't let two of her heroine's leading men croak so soon after each other.

[Bexfizz]

Hello, iv not been on here for a while, and it looks to me like everythings changed, which was a kind of shock.

Anyway, Great posts to everyone, you are all doing great work and lots of research i can see.

I thought id just offer my views on things if thats alright?
Now i would seriously love H/Hr to get together and i think really in their own little way everyone does. but to me and esspecially after reading OoTP it doesn't look like its going to happen, which is why i ship the most realistic one R/Hr. im sorry but thats the way it looks that JK's going with this and as much as it pains me to say this no matter how much H/Hr evidence that is brought up, i just can't see it. And coming from someone who would very much like to see it, i think really proves that its not there.
Like i said great posts and with all the research and all, but what is all this Buckbeak thing about, Hippogriffs being the symbol of 'love'. i mean to assume that JK put Buckbeak, there for the reason to foreshadow Harry and Harmione's love, is taking a pretty big leap. Sure she hides clues in her writing, but considering that she's writing for children i doubt the clues would be buried that deep in the text.
Besides whats wrong with Harry being with Ginny, she seems like such a nice girl, and now that she's talking to him they can become good friends. Ok granted she may not be as good as Hermione but at least she has courage and she is more than willing to stand up for what she believes in, which is good for Harry because he needs a partner who is strong and Ginny's great, she's definatly one of my favourites. so i like them together and i think that they are going to become more than friends in future books, which should please Ron.
Anyway, iv got to go. but maybe i'll come back sometime and see where the discusstion is then. thanks bye.

[Mad-I Moody]

On Hermione being the "female lead":
OK, why is this significant to a ship anyway? I don't understand. The only reason she can be considered the "female lead" is because she is female and Ron is male. What if Ron were female? And Harry had 2 female best friends? Who would be the lead female then? In other words, Hermione's importance as a character doesn't outweigh Ron's, it's just that she is a girl and Ron is a guy, so since Harry is already the lead male, Ron can't be another "lead." Hermione automatically defaults as the lead female because she's a girl, not because she is more important than Ron. But since this seems like such a nicely arguable topic, and since we are bringing up JKR quotes, here is my take on the matter:


Q: How did Harry Potter originate?

A: Harry was always a boy, and he was always Harry, but he wasn't always Potter; he had two other surnames. I won't tell you what they were, partly because I'm about to use one of them for another character in book four.

I've thought about why I didn't choose a heroine, but I didn't want to change him. He was too real to me, and it would have felt very contrived to feminize him. . . . There are plenty of strong females in the books. Hermione is a caricature of me when I was younger. Of Harry, Ron and Hermione, she's definitely the brainpower.

Q: Will Harry find romance in book four?

A: He tries, but he doesn't get very far.

They're all kind of after the wrong people, as in life. Hermione gets the first date, and it's quite a cool one because I thought I owed her a bit of fun.

Ok, so in this interview, JKR points out that there are plenty of strong females in the books. She does not mention Hermione as a heroine, but she recognizes her as the brainpower of the trio. This makes me think of the trio of humanity, heart, soul, and mind. Hermione can be the mind, Harry could be the soul, and Ron could be the heart. None of these is very useful without the other TWO.

Now, for the "wrong people" comment. Originally, Ron doesn't intend on asking Hermione to the Yule Ball. He doesn't even think of her in this way – yet. So he ends up asking all of the "wrong people" (Fleur), and ends up going with someone even more ill-suited to him. Could Hermione be the right person for Ron? It's possible, since he isn't "after" her, and JKR says that the characters are after the WRONG people. Harry asks Cho (is she one of the "wrong people"? I'm guessing yes, considering how their relationship turns out in OotP) and goes with Parvati, but doesn't particularly enjoy her company. He could have gone with Ginny (per Ron's suggestion), but she was already taken. Could Ginny be the "right" one? Harry isn't "after" her, after all. Nor is he "after" Hermione, agreed, so I'll just go ahead and mention that one for the Harmony folks, keeping in mind that this is all speculation from a JKR quote.

I'm guessing that all of the Yule Ball pairings were, in essence, "wrong." This means that Ginny should be with someone other than Neville, Hermione should be with someone other than Krum, Ron should be with someone other than Fleur or Padma, and Harry should be with someone besides Cho or Parvati.


In this movie we've seen the kids develop from the first film, can you tell us about the relationship between Harry, Ron, and Hermione and how that is developing film by film?
JKR:
Well I think it is developing in the films as it does in the books, which is to say that they are, they're much stronger together than apart.

I'm just using this quote to strengthen my argument against the theory that JKR is deliberately separating Ron from Hr and H. That just doesn't make sense to me – and yes, I've read the essay. JKR recognizes that the trio is stronger together than apart – she doesn't say "Harry is much stronger with Hermione OR Ron." They have to be ALL TOGETHER to be at their absolute best.


She breaks off and then starts to mutter. "It irritates me. It irritates me. What irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly, being asked 'Can we have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side order of chips. I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?' She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.

All right. We've already determined, with the previous quote, that Harry needs Hermione. He needs his friends – no one can dispute that. Note that JKR says "THEY need her," before she says Harry needs her badly. So, doesn't this mean that Ron needs her too? I mean, what else does "They need her" mean?

[FlyingPhoenix]

Yeah but Harry need her badly. That say more if I get this right in english grammar

[Mad-I Moody]

I just think that way way WAY too much emphasis is put on JKR saying "Harry needs her badly." Taken out of the context of the entire quote, it does seem like she is really setting apart Harry's relationship with Hermione. However, when taken in context, it just tells us something that we already know: that she is an essential part of the trio. Since these are Harry's books, it is understandable that JKR would say that Harry needs Hermione -- he needs her to help him solve a lot of complicated problems that he couldn't solve by himself or with Ron. This DOES NOT place more importance on her, because we know that Ron is Harry's best friend (see GoF, Harry's reactions to having Hermione as his best friend). Harry NEEDS the balance of the two. He needs Hermione (badly, yes) for some things. He needs Ron, just as badly, for other things. Does JKR say "Harry needs Ron badly?" No. But look at the quote...JKR is talking about female characters and their importance in the book. Of course she's going to stress Hermione's importance in that context -- she's one of the biggest female characters in the books. I'm positive that if JKR were asked: Does Harry need Ron or Hermione more? She'd answer along the lines of "He needs them both, for different things. And he needs them both to be his friends."

I don't want to put words into her mouth, but that is what I would assume she would say, from what she has said about the trio in previous interviews.

[Auror77]

Hmmm. Interesting posts, but I surely doubt Harry will die and Hermione will go with Ron. Reason: Because IF Harry dies, that means Voldemort is invincible!!! And Voldemort will rule the world! Again I just don't think that will happen.

[Saint Smythe]

No, I don't think Voldemort will survive... I just think that Book Seven will revisit Book One's idea of someone dying to destroy him...

Remember Dumbledore's 'look of triumph?' Well, having Harry's blood in him makes Voldemort mortal, and that's something he didn't have when Lily gave her life.

[sone]

Like i said great posts and with all the research and all, but what is all this Buckbeak thing about, Hippogriffs being the symbol of 'love'. i mean to assume that JK put Buckbeak, there for the reason to foreshadow Harry and Harmione's love, is taking a pretty big leap. Sure she hides clues in her writing, but considering that she's writing for children i doubt the clues would be buried that deep in the text.


It's not really that deep, but since so many people have questioned it, further explaining is needed. Type hippogriff in any search engine and definitions, origins and all sorts of webpages will come up at once. Also, you underestimate the intelligence of children, especially the children who read these books.


Besides whats wrong with Harry being with Ginny, she seems like such a nice girl, and now that she's talking to him they can become good friends. Ok granted she may not be as good as Hermione but at least she has courage and she is more than willing to stand up for what she believes in, which is good for Harry because he needs a partner who is strong and Ginny's great, she's definatly one of my favourites. so i like them together and i think that they are going to become more than friends in future books, which should please Ron.
Anyway, iv got to go. but maybe i'll come back sometime and see where the discusstion is then. thanks bye.

What is wrong with Harry/Hermione? Nothing is wrong with Harry/Ginny. As a matter of fact, Ginny is exactly the type of girl I have always gone out with. Strong, intelligent, independent, cat-like shapely features and just a little feisty. However, in this case, it has always been more about Ginny than about Harry. More about her feelings, her crush, her changes rather than Harry's own. I cannot see him liking Ginny when he is spending more time with another girl. If Harry dreams about Ginny, if he hears her voice in his head, if there had been as many scenes with Harry and Ginny holding each other then definitely yes, I can see something. But not now.

[Mad Eye Mike]

On Hermione being the "female lead":
OK, why is this significant to a ship anyway? I don't understand. The only reason she can be considered the "female lead" is because she is female and Ron is male. What if Ron were female? And Harry had 2 female best friends? Who would be the lead female then?<edit>


You know what? It doesn't matter why Hermione is the female lead, she just is. If Harry would've had two best females friends, whichever one received more screentime over the other would have been considered the 'leading' female.

The Matrix is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's not Carrie Ann Moss's fault the Wachowski Brothers decided to have only one female of true relevance in the films. But that doesn't mean Trinity is any less of a lead character. Since the Matrix is basically Neo's story (just like HP is Harry's), whichever girl is most in his life (the story) is the lead girl. In Neo's case it's Trinity. In the first Matrix, was Trinity a sidekick for Neo? Yes; and since she was the only female, she was the lead by default. But that didn't make her any less of a lead because in Matrix Reloaded there were more females and Trinity still recieved the most screentime.

You can't lessen Hermione's lead status just because there were no other important females in Harry's life up until OotP - for that, blame JKR. In the end it doesn't matter why, how or through what circumstance an opposite sex character is made a lead. If they are important to the story, to the main character and have lots of screentime, they are recognized as one of the two leading characters in the piece.

Hermione is the main girl in Harry's life; his life is the story. Thus Hermione has 'lead' status as top girl in the books.

[Saint Smythe]

If Harry dreams about Ginny, if he hears her voice in his head, if there had been as many scenes with Harry and Ginny holding each other then definitely yes, I can see something. But not now.

Also, there's that whole "dating your best friend's sister" thing going on... I mean, look how Ron reacts every time he finds out Ginny has a boyfriend...

[snitch14]

Again, Ron would rather let Ginny date Harry, because he's trusting and he knows him oh too well. If Ginny goes out with someone Ron hardly knows, then he feels protective of his sister. aww!

If Ginny went out with Harry, then Ron would feel at ease, knowing who she's dealing with.

Well, no offense to Ginny, but if she really still likes Harry, she could give some signs. She only showed that she became braver and stuff..

[Mad-I Moody]

You know what? It doesn't matter why Hermione is the female lead, she just is. If Harry would've had two best females friends, whichever one received more screentime over the other would have been considered the 'leading' female.

OK, I get it. I wasn't trying to deny Hermione's lead female status, I was just trying to figure out why it even matters to this whole shipper debate. Which I still don't understand. Is it based on some assumption that the "hero" and the "female lead" should end up together? Then how does the whole "trio" bit figure into that? I mean, it is obviously important that they ARE a Trio, and not a Duo...so I'm sticking by the fact that Ron and Hermione have equal grounding in character status. Just because Hermione is a female (which, in turn, makes her the female with the most "screen time") doesn't mean that she is more important than Ron. Ron is the male, second to Harry, with the most "screen time." I would consider Ron and Hermione leading characters, and Harry as the hero. In other words, Harry and Ron are the heroes of the books, and Hermione is the heroine. If we elevate Hermione up to the prominence of Harry (which I don't think we can really do), we have to bring Ron up there as well. He is just as important.
Also, there's that whole "dating your best friend's sister" thing going on... I mean, look how Ron reacts every time he finds out Ginny has a boyfriend...
yeah, but look at how he acts when he finds out she doesn't like Harry anymore -- he seems disappointed. And, at the end, he looks at Harry significantly (actually, it is an "oddly furtive glance") when he mentions to Ginny that she should "choose someone better [than Michael Corner] next time."

[sone]

The only who do seem to mind are Ginny and Harry themselves. Ginny being Ginny, I am sure does not like Ron choosing her boyfriends for her no matter how much she may like them herself. Harry so far has never taken that type of interest in Ginny.

[GilyAnn]

:clap: Mad-I Moody Thank you!!

Well, no offense to Ginny, but if she really still likes Harry, she could give some signs. She only showed that she became braver and stuff..


I think that Ginny did showed some signs of still having some feelings.

Gily Ann

[sone]

I agree Gily. As a matter of fact, they go back to GOF.

[snitch14]

Well, yea, we know that Ginny didn't completely get over him. She just thought he was a lost cause, and that she should go for someone else.

[sone]

For some reason, I see Ron, Ginny and/or even Viktor walking in on Harry and Hermione kissing. That will be a disaster.

[snitch14]

the biggest disaster is if ron walks in on h/hr kissing. he is very close to both of them, it would feel awkward.. and since he likes hermione...

[noddwyd]

im sorry but thats the way it looks that JK's going with this and as much as it pains me to say this no matter how much H/Hr evidence that is brought up, i just can't see it. And coming from someone who would very much like to see it, i think really proves that its not there.
This is pretty funny, because as I have said before, I reallly do not want to see this happen, and yet, from reading the books over and over more times than I care to meantion, this is what I see happening. I actually would prefer H/L, but how likely is that? So, since I don't even want it to happen and still see it, does that make it concrete that there's something there?

[Fairydust]

I see a lot of H/Hr friendship. no romance. i see an R/Hr romance in the works. but i also see some bit of R/L working. i think JK's writing this just to keep us oon our toes. even though i'm pretty sure it's going to be R/Hr, i can't be too confident that it will be them.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Now there is OotP out there and its much easier to compare the fights in PoA and in GoF.
Its like that GoF is that book what shows what Hermione, Harry and Ron did learn about this fights in PoA. Which was H>Hr and R>Hr.
This say in GoF was Hermione different as in PoA. Yeah, yeah I know I imagine me things but its interest that Hermione do in GoF much more understanding Ron as in PoA. In PoA she did never try to understand him. She was to stupborn to do so but GoF she do it. Why?
Because in PoA she almost lose his friendship and this fact might be important in futur.
Now the situation between Harry and Hermione there wasn't a real fight they never argued about the firebolt there was never hurting feelings in this fight. So they didn't change. Hermione didn't change against Harry and that is kinda amazing if take that Harry let her in PoA pretty alone though he tried to speak with her but she did get that Ron was always his first best friend and that what after this realisation happens in GoF is IMO amazing. Normally I would expect Hermione let Harry alone like he did it with her in PoA and is on Rons side. But she never did so she did stay by him and never questioning if he tells the true or not even Harry was surprised about that.

Now in GoF was another fight this time between R>H this one I really mean it is more serious. This little fight between H/Hr is nothing against this one because here are really issuse. Harry don't understand Ron and Ron not Harry. By H/Hr was it not like that it was never as if Harry didn't understand Hermione.
That is the danger by this fight between Ron and Harry that they came to a point where one the other didn't understand anymore and they have never solve this problem. Harry did never understand Rons moaning to be poor but to have a beloved family and Ron never get that Harry don't want be the hero and not rich that he would give everything to have Rons live.
In OotP we saw what did came out what was the result of this. Its plain simply Ron did change and Harry did change. Now Harry turns to Hermione and tells her this stuff about his scar like he did it already in GoF. He tells her what is with Cho and that he want write Sirius and about his dreams. Between Harry and Ron isn't anymore this conversation like in PoA or at the beginning of GoF. Harry just don't tell anymore his weakness not anymore things which look as if he want attention. This is because of GoF. If he say something than Hermione is around and its Hermione who answer him and not Ron.
This scene after Mr. Weasley was attacked is a nice example for this.
How did Ron look at Harry? It was a fleeting look and than there was silence. He didn't say a thing nothing even his brothers and his sister did say something but he was silent. Ron did barely speak with Harry to be exactly two sentence even after he know his father was alright. One was an answer to Harrys question about healers and the other just an information that dinner is alright. No wonder that Harry thought they avoid him because Ron did avoid him. Only after Hermione turns up Ron do speak with Harry.
This is interest that it did last that long this silence. Do you remember how Ron reacted as Ginny was in the chamber and it was as if she is already dead? Ron wasn't silent he was speaking to Harry and not complett silent.
This issue still exist and is still not solved. Now Ron is in the team in book6 Harry might come back there might come tension up because of them might become the captian I guess Ron.
In OotP is this tension lay down because there was tension between H/Hr all the way. But as fast Harry spent more time with Ron this unsolved problem might come back. So in all honestly in OotP Ron and Harry didn't spent much time alone, did they?

[Daveydee]

1. GoF: If Ron supposedly "likes" Hermione, then she should have been his number one choice for the Yule Ball right from the start (like the way Cho was Harry’s first choice)...if he liked her, then why waste so much time asking the other girls when to begin with - should have just asked Hermione straight away...which then goes back to my post earlier on how Ron only sees Hermione as "one of the boys"...and if you read carefully, Ron doesn't really ask Hermione out officially as his date, it states...

But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light.
Well there you go - you've answered your own question. Evidently in ANY potential relationship there comes a point when one 'notices' a girl/boy. For Ron that was the point at which he 'noticed' Hermione.
Regarding the kiss in OOTP (correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't this before a Quiddich match), I think it was more of a good luck kiss than anything else...
Quite possibly - but it sends certain signals, do you not think?
Harry and Ginny:
In OOTP, we finally got to know the only girl in the Weasley family and so did Harry. I think that this relationship between the two is more of a brother-sister type relationship…
Hmm - brother-sister type relationship sounds more like Harry and Hermione to me. In any case your subsequent comment seems completely at odds with your stated view of Harry & Ginny as brother & sister:
I think in this book, Harry finally sees a matured Ginny rather than the little girl he first met that went scarlet red every time he was around. He admires her, she’s grown up a lot, and he sees that there is much courage in her and there is a lot of untapped talent within her, and the fact that he can relate to her about what it feels to be possessed by Voldemort shows that he has that respect for her…
Moving on:
...there are a lot of subtle signs for these two…Firstly, there’s the photo that is circulating the internet for the PoA movie – I’m sure you have all seen it – it’s the one with Harry and Hermione and he is holding her in a protective hug…
Protective hug - yes; romantic hug - no.
in the book, there is nothing that indicates this…I think that JKR is dropping a small hint here
There are plenty of other hugs written in the books between Harry and Hermione and Ron and Hermione. And JK is not the director - her influence was significant in PS/SS - it's virtually non-existent now.
as well as that hug at the end of CoS…once again, the book does not state this…
...or the Non-Hug, which seems rather more significant in the light of events in GoF.
“Bye, Harry,” said Hermione, and she did something that she has never done before, and kissed him on the cheek..."
Harry may had not had the time to ponder on this kiss…
He had all summer to ponder the kiss, which he apparently did not do.
Hermione is his sidekick and his best friend...
Hermione is ONE OF Harry's sidekicks and best friends.
...but I do hope you guys out there have some feedback
See above ;) . Welcome to the thread BTW.

[Hawk 92]

Well there you go - you've answered your own question. Evidently in ANY potential relationship there comes a point when one 'notices' a girl/boy. For Ron that was the point at which he 'noticed' Hermione.

Just like Harry noticed Hermione at the Yule Ball. And noticed that she was pretty.

Now whats interesting is that even after Ron "notices" Hermione he still treats her like a last resort. He assumes that 2 girls don't have dates, 1 is Ginny and the other is Hermione. Now Ron is not going to go to the Ball with his sister so he suggests Hermione by default. Once again Ron treats Hermione as a last restort and not as a choice. Hermione is Ron's default and not his choice.

Cheers!

[GryffindorGal]

For some reason, I see Ron, Ginny and/or even Viktor walking in on Harry and Hermione kissing. That will be a disaster.


Somehow I don't think Viktor walking in would be a disaster. I think Viktor knows "the lay of the land" so to speak regarding Hermione and her feelings.

Even Ginny probably wouldn't be that big of a mess, She's got Dean {i](right now) and (possibly) Neville in her future

Speaking of which, Hawk I have a question: Is SIGNS the name of the ship or just of the group of Fans who see that ship happening? If its the latter then we need to search for a snappy name. Can't have a ship christening without a name, Maybe something dance related... HMS Two left feet? HMS Dancing Fools? We could have a flag with a pair of dancing shoes flying from the main mast. Maybe a figurehead of Astaire and Rogers? Just thinking out loud

Ok back to the rest of my answer:

Ron, I'm not sure of. My immediate thought is that he'd freak out but then there was an occassion or 2 in OotP where his reaction could be interpreted as either jealousy or sibling-ish. the novel length letter Hermione wrote to Viktor and Hermione's comment about Harry's kissing ability. In some ways they were similar to Ron's reactions to Ginny dating Michael and later saying that she had chosen Dean.

Hmmmm off to ruminate on that a bit more

[SeniorFishy]

I think that Harry has scrapped the bottom of his depression at the end of OotP. I think he's feeling quite horrible to what he did at the DoM. I think he's going to be blaming himself for getting Sirius killed and that it was lucky that he didn't kill the entire Order plus Hermione, Ron, Luna, Ginny, and Neville. I now think that Harry is going to be distancing himself a bit with everyone he knows.

I think book SIX is going to be another book without much going for relationships. I don't he wants to deal with another Cho episode. I think that Harry will become quite quiet and introverted again. I think we'll see more of him trying to hide his feelings and himself from everyone. I believe that book SIX won't have much romances involving Harry. I think that Hermione will continue to act in a purely friendly way to Harry. I don't think Ron and Hermione will happen. You'd think that if there was all this tension since CoS that something would have happened by now, no OotP totally was the part which sank any hope for Ron and Hermione in my opinion.

I think Luna and Neville have hope, or Neville and Ginny. But I also am fully expecting to be fully suprised by JKR. I know she has left enough hints for everyone to be with anyone.

[Grace Granger]

I just wanted to say great posts: FP, evaluna, MEM, and all of my other Harmonians! :clap: :clap:

[Daveydee]

It's not really that deep, but since so many people have questioned it, further explaining is needed.
Yes it is - just review the last few pages to see what obtuse and conflicting interpretations can be made.
Type hippogriff in any search engine and definitions, origins and all sorts of webpages will come up at once.
Rather takes the wind out of the readers sails if they have to drop everything and trawl the net every few pages, though.
Also, you underestimate the intelligence of children, especially the children who read these books.I can only speak for myself whom I consider to be reasonably articulate, and I knew nothing about hippogriffs until a few weeks ago.

A general point on all of this - it should not be the case, and I really don't think that it has ever been Jk's intention that in order to fully appreciate her books, hours of subsequent research shoud be neccessary.

I cannot see him liking Ginny when he is spending more time with another girl. If Harry dreams about Ginny, if he hears her voice in his head, if there had been as many scenes with Harry and Ginny holding each other then definitely yes, I can see something. But not now.Why not? He was infatuated with Cho for the best part of three books. OK - it turned out disastrously. But the end does not justify the means.

[LLGirl]

Harry discovered in OotP that he will eventually kill or be killed. I don't believe that he will get romantically involved with anyone because he would feel it would be unfair for them if he was to die. He has a lot of resposibility and worries right now without adding to it by becoming involved with anyone. As much as I would love to see Harry happy with a girlfriend (I personally think Ginny is perfect for him) I just don't see it happening until after the defeat of Voldemort (if Harry is still alive)

[haycheng]

hippogriff
Hippogriff, a myth beast. It is a very famous one IMHO. If you read other similiar books, Hippogriff do show up frequent enough for people to know their meaning. It is especially true if you are interested in Dungeon and Dragon. My sister is 14 and she knows it without checking any reference. It only means that your normal reading consist of other books.

On "motherly" love from Hermione
The problem is that hermione is not a elder woman and of course not Harry mother. They are not blood related. The idea to seperate each kind of love is in a way fault. Romantic love is generally consist of other thing. there is time a partner have to step up and play the role of protector, when the other one shows sign of problem. Just as right now Harry view ginny nothing more than a "sister", we do not know how the so call "motherly" love of Hermione will turn out.

Do anyone know what a Dragon mean?
I mean it resprent greed and power? or is there anything else to it?

[sone]

Hmmmm....good point GryffindorGal. But with Ron, I still see disaster. Same with Ginny, not at Harry's direction though but at Hermione's. I do see Harry trying to distance himself somewhat, but not succeeding. With the school now fully on his side, the weight of that at least is lifted from his shoulders, plus the fact that he is not going to be left alone for as long he was will help a great deal also. He may be a little colder but he will not be so angry. Whether he wants it or not, I see Harry turning heads and not out of fear this time. Harry will not want to get involved with anyone but they are going to want to get involved with him so he is going to have to confront it anyway. I do not see him keeping this secret from Hermione long. She can read Harry like a book, she is going to pick up that something is wrong. What is also scary is that Harry is not afraid of his fate.

[Mad-I Moody]

On Hermione coming to 12GP after Mr. Weasley is attacked:
Well, the question here seems to be – did Hermione come to see (a) only Harry, or did she come out of (b) concern for the Weasley family, or did she come (c) to see Ron, or (d) Ron and Harry, or (e)Harry, Ron, and the rest of the Weasley family, or did she just (f) not want to go skiing? Personally, I think that WAY too much is read into this scene, but here is my explanation anyway.

Well, I'm going to rule out (f) as the reason. It might have something to do with it, but nothing that can help or hinder our discussion. I'm going to go with (e) - Harry, Ron, and the rest of the Weasley family - as the reason, and here is why:

Let's begin with the argument that many on the HMS Harmony have pointed out – Hermione has just arrived at 12GP and the snow hasn't yet melted off of her hair. Her face is still pink from the cold. She's obviously focused on Harry, then, because this indicates that she hasn't had time to stop off downstairs and talk with the Weasleys. So this sequence of events would be (this is taken directly from a post by Perdita, a H/Hr shipper, on page 41 of this thread):

Examine the sequence of events:
-Mr. Weasley is attacked.
-He is taken to St. Mungos. Harry and Weasley siblings go there to visit him. They learn that he has recovered fine and is not in danger.
-Harry, Molly and Weasley siblings return to 12 Grimmauld Place.
-Harry sulks and hides away for a day.
-School term ends, and Hermione arrives on the first evening of that day.
-She goes straight to Harry in Buckbeak’s room. For the next two scenes in Buckbeak’s room and in Ron and Harry’s room, Hermione never made mention of Mr. Weasley.


OK, I bolded the last part to show two flaws in this sequence. Hermione arrives at 12Gp around 6:00 in the evening (pg 498, US OotP). At the end of that paragraph, it states that Harry was surprised when someone knocked hard on his door a few minutes later. Now I KNOW you aren't going to argue that it took Hermione a few minutes to climb three flights of stairs.
The other flaw in this sequence is minor, but Hermione does in fact mention Mr. Weasley. At the top of page 499, she says "Dumbledore told her [umbridge] that Mr. Weasley was in St. Mungo's."

Well, what about her "Skiing's not my thing," comment? One might ask. Why would she tell Harry that she was skipping out on her vacation with her parents because she didn't like to ski if she was really there to see Mr. Weasley? Why wouldn't she just say "I came to check on Mr. Weasley?"
My answer to this is that (a)I think Hermione was there to see Harry AND the Weasley family and (b) why would she need to tell Harry "Well, I'm here because Dumbledore and everyone have told me all sorts of stuff that has made me worry about Ron's family and about you."?? I think Harry is smart enough to infer that she is there out of general concern, both for him and for the Weasleys.

All right, so there are a few obvious things about this scene that I feel have been neglected or overlooked.
ONE: Hermione comes into the room where Harry is sulking a few MINUTES after she arrives at 12GP, giving her a little time to chat with whomever might have answered the door.
TWO: Hermione only stays in that room with Harry long enough to say "Skiing's not my thing, I've come for Christmas, Mum and Dad were sad, Don't tell Ron that I don't like skiing, I told Mum and Dad that everyone stays at Hogwarts to study, they want me to do well, Come on, let's go to your room. There's some food in there." Not a real heart-to-heart, is it? And didn't Harry just think about how hungry he was? I think Hermione has the power to persuade Harry to go with her because she is the sensible one of the three, and Harry knows it. Besides, he's probably still taken aback at her arrival in the first place.
THREE: We know that Hermione knew all about Mr. Weasley AND about Harry before she gets to 12GP. She says that "Dumbledore told me what happened first thing this morning" (the morning she arrives at 12GP). It is also very fair to assume that she has somehow communicated with Ron or another member of the Weasley family in between the time when she found out and the time she arrived. Why do I say this? Because Hermione says a few things that indicate this:
1."Ron's mum's lit a fire in there [Harry's bedroom] and she's sent up sandwiches." –Hermione couldn't know that if she had immediately dashed up to Harry.
2. "Ron and Ginny say that you've been hiding from everyone since you got back from St. Mungo's." – She's obviously talked to them about this at some point between their arrival back from the hospital and her arrival at 12GP.
3. "The others have told me what you overheard last night on the Extendable Ears."
-Does this indicate that she's had time to talk to the other members of the Weasley clan? Sources point to yes!
Now, isn't it sensible to assume that, in the instances wherein Hermione talked to the Weasley family, she was, at least, thoughtful enough to ask about Mr. Weasley?
Saying Hermione came only to be with Harry cannot be true therefore, because:
1. She doesn't go to see him the MOMENT she comes through the door
2. She gets Harry right out of the sulking room and takes him into a room with Ron and Ginny, with whom she has quite obviously been talking.
3. There is no indication that she wants to be alone with Harry

Finally, about the Christmas gifts. I think that Ron and Harry's gifts to Hermione are a bit telling of how the boys feel towards her. Ron, who is beginning to see Hermione differently, and feel differently towards her, gives her a silly, girlish gift that would seem to many a 15 year old boy, to be something romantic – perfume. Harry, who sees Hermione as a pal, one of his best friends, gives Hermione a book, which is a safe, predictable gift. Hermione, on the other hand, gives both boys the exact same thing – a homework planner??? Is she deliberately trying to not show preference? Or does she not yet realize her feelings for one of the boys? Or, does she not have feelings for either of them as more than friends?? These Christmas gifts are cryptic (and deliberately so, I imagine).

OK, so that's my take on the whole Hermione coming to spend Christmas with everyone debate. My thoughts on Hermione leaving the Quidditch match to go with Harry and Hagrid are in the works….it may be tomorrow before that happens, though.

Until next time – smooth sailing!

[haycheng]

Time used before she went up for Harry
While Hermione is of course not just go there to see Harry, I believe it is her primary object. She is a caring person I do expect that she has asked about everyone before go up to see harry. The problem is that Weasly family is pretty big. Judge by the time she spend(ice on head and other signs, I give it at most 3mins), she has not spent much time to comfort the Weaslys. She is also in a consist motion since she enter the house. She has not used anytime to fix herself up.(She hate cold, she goes dress up warm before go down to see Hagrid in another scene.) At the very least, we know she worry Harry enough that she has not fix herself properly before go up to see Harry.

Gift
Ron's gift is easy to read, he is interested in Hermione. (some may also argue Perfume is ok for friend, sister or mother. It is a possibility. But crush seem to be the more general assumption)
harry's book is interesting in my opinion. It is not just any book, it is Hermione's favor subject. It shows that he know Hermione well enough.
Hermione's gift. IMHO, I believe she just wants them to work hard. If indeed she know Ron's crush, she may also try to show that they are both just her friends. Although, I do not believe Ron is sensitive enough to see it this way.

[Mad-I Moody]

But she has been in contact with the Weasleys, Ron I'm assuming especially, since they left St. Mungo's the night before. So she has probably discussed both Harry AND Mr. Weasley with Ron/Ginny to a certain degree before she ever arrives at 12GP.

She's worried about Harry, of course, why wouldn't she be -- he's one of her best friends. But she doesn't try to "fix herself up..." Wouldn't she do this if she was about to go in and see the person for whom she (romantically) cares SO much about? As I read it, her concern for Harry in this scene is equal to the concern of Ron and Ginny.

[sone]

She's worried about Harry, of course, why wouldn't she be -- he's one of her best friends. But she doesn't try to "fix herself up..." Wouldn't she do this if she was about to go in and see the person for whom she (romantically) cares SO much about?

No. That is ridiculous.

[haycheng]

fixup before seeing Harry
I believe Hermione did indeed talk with someone before go up. I do not know how much but not long. Fix up to see a guy, I believe you only need to do that we you are going to a date or something. It is to give a good impression to your date. Hoever, Harry has seen her in the worst case already, is it really a point to do that? Hermione is not big on dolling herself up anyways. It could shows that she care more about Harry than to impress Harry about her appearance.

However, I am not talking about fix up to look good, I am talking about fix up to feel warm. It would not take long to get the ice out of her hair and take off the wet jacket, or may be ever get a cup of hot tea. I know I would get a cup of hot tea first.(what you expect, I am from HK. I am not use to cold)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Ron and Ginny didn't even bother and knock on the door. Indeed very worried I would say.
And they were the whole day with him in 12G.
Kinda strange if you ask me?! How was it they didn't avoid him? Did anybody come to Harry and say "Get up I need to talk with you?" Nope not that I remember.
Sometimes isn't that bad if a friend is interfering I guess

[DumbledoreTheWise]

I agree with Harry retreating into a "shell" if you will, in Book six. We have already seen the beginning of this at the end of Book 5. Harry feels distanced from everyone else, he feels seperated and different, because, well, he is. Actually, I have always thought ("always" meaning following the first time i finished GoF) that it would be Ginny to bring him out of his shell....help him through the tough times when even Ron and Hermione just don't seem to fit his needs. Ginny is certainly adept at noticing feelings and emotions....and even resolving them. She is (whether you are a fan or not) definitly not afraid to confront people, make them open up and talk to her. I think she will do this with Harry. I think once she does do this, it will be beneficial to both of them. Ginny and Harry have both suffered at the hands of Voldemort. Their families have been affected, and, in my humble opinion the Weasleys will be affected a great deal more before the series ends......so really they have many things.....emotionally, mentally, psycologically in common, and I think they could really feed off each other's strengths and shortcomings to help each other through the war and really form a fantastic relationship.

[Mad-I Moody]

I meant for it to sound ridiculous. :)

As far as "getting warm" goes:
She goes up to get Harry, says a few sentences, and then says, let's go to your room, there's a fire in there. So it seems logical, since we have all now conceded that Hermione probably talked to a couple of folks before charging upstairs, that she said "Hi Mrs. Weasley..." and had a little, brief conversation, saying "I heard about everything that has been going on. I'm glad Mr. Weasley is going to be OK. Has Harry spoken to anyone yet?"
"No, he's upstairs with Buckbeak."
"OK, Ron and Ginny, meet me in Harry and Ron's room. I'm going to go and get Harry so we can all talk to him. Mrs. Weasely, would you mind lighting a fire in there for us?"
"Certainly. And I'll bring up some sandwiches, too."

So she doesn't stop off to get warm, have a cup of tea, etc., because she knows she's about to go and sit in front of a fire -- right after she gets Harry, which takes all of about a minute or two, if that.

[sone]

Why? You did not need to. Personally I do not see what the big deal is. The only part I found interesting is how quickly she got Harry out of that room considering no one else could.

[Mirror of Erised]

But she has been in contact with the Weasleys, Ron I'm assuming especially, since they left St. Mungo's the night before. So she has probably discussed both Harry AND Mr. Weasley with Ron/Ginny to a certain degree before she ever arrives at 12GP.

She's worried about Harry, of course, why wouldn't she be -- he's one of her best friends. But she doesn't try to "fix herself up..." Wouldn't she do this if she was about to go in and see the person for whom she (romantically) cares SO much about? As I read it, her concern for Harry in this scene is equal to the concern of Ron and Ginny.

I think that the situation when Hermione went to 12 GP, she was probably talking to Ginny. As it has been shown that Ginny and Hermione have become very good friends before Ginny even received more of the spotlight in OOTP. Ginny shows that she is more in tune of the twins in the house of Weasleys (her constant talk of living with Fred and George, and such little talk of growing up with Ron). She was even sneaking out after the boys went out to play Quidditch, again... Ron played with the twins, but Hermione makes it evident when Ginny made the Seeker role that Ginny and Hermione have had some close friendship prior to their times at Hogwarts (meaning they became good friends while Hermione was at the Burrow/ 12 Grimmauld Place.
But when the Christmas visit came, it was HERMIONE who thought that the situation with Harry was grave enough to skip out on the ski trip (I believe the book even mentions that she jumped on the next available Knight Bus from her house to come and get Harry out of Buckbeaks room). Now I will not say whether her concern is as close to Ron and Ginny, as they left him to wallow in his own shame. But, it is inherently obvious by Harry's thoughts that only Hermione was capable of getting Harry out of that room to discuss the matters at hand. Ron as much as he is Harry's best friend has not put behind some of his duties/obligations to help either of Hermione or Harry in OOTP. Examples of this, is the Prefect scene... There was not one scene where he wondered why Harry never received the pin, as Hermione did... In being a Prefect, there was no helping Hermione when Fred and George were causing Mayhem in the Gryffindor Common room. There was nothing but pity of being on the Gryffindor Quidditch team (as the lousy goalie for 3/4 of the book) even though, Harry was kicked off the team and 'Suspended for life' for representing the Weasleys (as well as the muggle house he grew up in) to Draco.
Now, though I say these things about Ron he will be there thick in thin for Harry at the end (MOM scenes) but he certainly has not been the same friend we remember him being in the first couple books (since after the fight in GOF). Hermione, I think in her actions has shown that she is growing closer to Harry every book, and that her actions will play out shortly... Skipping a ski trip, and pretending it is no big deal (obvious by her telling Ron so much about it b4 Christmas) is something a romantic interest would do. and opening the door that was closed to every one but her (Harry) is also a thing romantic interests do for each other.

[Ecthelion]

Alright, I've been gone a long time and a lot of excellent topics have been covered! Great job my fellow Harmonians! :tu:

As I don't really have anything significant to say I'm going to ask this question:

When I was scrolling through the messages I came across HMS CHOCOLATE. Upon further investigation, it represented the h/g or hr/r ship'. Why is it chocolate? I have tried for a considerable length of time to put together words affiliating with Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny....but have yet to come across words or the like that come up with the word "chocolate".....I'm lost. Anybody want to fill me up here? :shrug:

[Mad-I Moody]

Ron and Ginny didn't even bother and knock on the door. Indeed very worried I would say.
And they were the whole day with him in 12G.
Kinda strange if you ask me?! How was it they didn't avoid him? Did anybody come to Harry and say "Get up I need to talk with you?" Nope not that I remember.

1. Mrs. Weasley calls his name softly up the stairs (pg 498, US edition), and he retreats farther upstairs and ignores her.
2. pg 497, US version - said by Ron: "Harry, Mum says dinner's ready, but she'll save something if you want to stay in bed..." -- Here is Ron, giving Harry the option to talk or not to talk - being sensitive (gasp) to Harry's situation.
3. Twice, on the train ride back from St. Mungo's, Mrs Weasley asks Harry if he is all right. He tells her yes. (pg. 493)

So, Harry is silent the entire way home from St. Mungo's, he immediately retreats upstairs, doesn't respond to Ron when Ron comes up to see him, doesn't respond to Mrs. Weasley when she calls, and Hermione bursts in at 6:00 the next day and SHE'S the only one who is concerned about Harry? C'mon.

EDIT:

There was not one scene where he wondered why Harry never received the pin, as Hermione did...
pg. 167, US version:
"Listen - Ron - well done, mate."
The smile faded off Ron's face.
"I never thought it would be me!" he said, shaking his head. "I thought it would be you!"

And yeah, Hermione seems just as concerned as Ron that Harry wasn't made prefect. he congratulates her on making it, and she says "Thanks...erm - Harry - can I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad?"
her initial reaction is shock, yeah -- but then, so is Ron's.

[Bexfizz]

I can only speak for myself whom I consider to be reasonably articulate, and I knew nothing about hippogriffs until a few weeks ago.

Im glad im not the only one, to be honest, before i had read POA i had no idea what a Hippogriff was.

Im actually looking forward to a Harry and Ginny relationship. Maybe Harry hasn't begun to think of her like that yet, but nor has he Hermione, so if theres a chance he'll begin to feel for a Hermione then theres also a chance he'll begin to feel for Ginny. Its just as likely. The fact that she's his best friends sister is good in a way, but also a little unnerving, but then Ron doesn't mind, and i think dating your best friends sister is better than dating your best friends crush, in my opinon anyway because thats always been a big no-no when it comes to friendships.

As for Hermione being the lead female, IMO she is but thats just what i think, nothing i can say on that subject really cause its all been said.

[FlyingPhoenix]

that it would be Ginny to bring him out of his shell....help him through the tough times when even Ron and Hermione just don't seem to fit his needs. Ginny is certainly adept at noticing feelings and emotions....and even resolving them. She is (whether you are a fan or not) definitly not afraid to confront people, make them open up and talk to her. I think she will do this with Harry. I think once she does do this, it will be beneficial to both of them. Ginny and Harry have both suffered at the hands of Voldemort.

I can't remember that Harry did ever speak about his emotions to Ginny. The only time Harry did speak about that what he feels there was always Hermione and Ron there. For example In PoA as Harry speak how he feels that the best friend of his parents did betray them or in OotP How he felt that he was complet by his own. He never did this with Ginny not once. So why should he turn to her now? Because of this Library chat or because she said how Voldemort possed her?
This wasn't emotional not what was on Harrys heart what he indeed felt in that moment. He just say what he wants and she runs to her brothers and this problem is solved thats all this could even do Luna or Neville if they were Weasleys and not Ron.
About this Voldemort scene, I don't hate or dislike Ginny I think she is nice, its for me as if she want show him or better remeind him that he is not the only one who has meet Voldemort or was possed. Its like in other words don't moan around there are other people who had to suffer for example herself. If you look at this scene Ginny say it angry that she know how it is to be possed and not Harry. This don't sound for me at first carring it was much more saying he isn't the victim she was it. Practiculary he have to be act more as a hero and not like a victim. On hand this scene I doubt she understand him, but this is only me.

EDIT: Chocolate because of the egg scene in the library.

[Mad-I Moody]

But when the Christmas visit came, it was HERMIONE who thought that the situation with Harry was grave enough to skip out on the ski trip (I believe the book even mentions that she jumped on the next available Knight Bus from her house to come and get Harry out of Buckbeaks room). Now I will not say whether her concern is as close to Ron and Ginny, as they left him to wallow in his own shame. But, it is inherently obvious by Harry's thoughts that only Hermione was capable of getting Harry out of that room to discuss the matters at hand.

it is more likely, I think, that she would be communicating with Ron, since he is (a) in her year and (b) the one person in the Weasley familiy with whom she spends the most time and (c) the person in the Weasley family who is also most concerned about Harry.

Hermione cancels her ski trip when Dumbledore fills her in on the situation - don't you think that Ron would have dropped a vacation if something like that had happened? I think it is a horrible oversight to assume that only Hermione was willing to give up her vacation to go and see about her friends. Ron or Harry would have done as much. Oh, and she leaves on the Knight Bus from Hogwarts, because she says "Dumbledore told me what had happened first thing this morning, but I had to wait for term to end officially before setting off."

See my above post about Ron "leaving Harry to wallow" -- Ron AND Mrs. Weasley tried to coax Harry out.

So the question that remains now is :Why could Hermione get Harry out of Buckbeak's room when no one else could? Well, I can think of several reasons that have nothing to do with Harry having special feelings for Hermione OR vice versa.
1. Shock. Harry opens the door because he is surprised that Hermione is there. She's supposed to be skiing, after all.
2. Curiosity. "What are you doing here?" Harry asks Hermione. He would have opened the door if the situation were reversed and Ron had just showed up out of the blue.
3. Hunger. Harry was "trying to ignore how hungry he felt" when Hermione demanded entrance -- and then she says Mrs Weasley has sent sandwiches up to his room. Yum.
4. Hermione was much more forceful with Harry. Where Ron and Mrs. Weasley were being respectful of Harry's privacy and OBVIOUS desire to be left alone, Hermione just barges on in.

Now, where is the romance in that? :huh:

EDIT:Im glad im not the only one, to be honest, before i had read POA i had no idea what a Hippogriff was.

I hadn't read about an abundance of them, either, to tell you the truth. And I majored in English in college and graduated with highest honors, so I don't think it reflects on how well-read you are if you hadn't heard of a hippogriff! :rolleyes: The only time I had heard of one was in an Italian poem called Orlando Furioso...until PoA, that is.

[haycheng]

Well. I always believe Harry require someone really strong to be his lover. This guy has some serious problem, he need someoen to hit his head to see the light. By the way, why isnt Ginny the one who get Harry out of the room?
the fact remain the same. Hermione is the one to get harry out. Hermione still has ice on her hair before see Harry(honestly remove the ice would be the first thing I do). She is caring enough that she is in a rush to see him(of course after some talk to know the situation). Harry is willing listen to her.

[Mad-I Moody]

Why would Ginny be the one to get Harry out? He doesn't want to associate with the Weasleys, after what they overheard. he makes this very clear to them.

[FlyingPhoenix]

1. Mrs. Weasley calls his name softly up the stairs (pg 498, US edition), and he retreats farther upstairs and ignores her.
2. pg 497, US version - said by Ron: "Harry, Mum says dinner's ready, but she'll save something if you want to stay in bed..." -- Here is Ron, giving Harry the option to talk or not to talk - being sensitive (gasp) to Harry's situation.
3. Twice, on the train ride back from St. Mungo's, Mrs Weasley asks Harry if he is all right. He tells her yes. (pg. 493)
_____________________________________________________________

But this is not like "I wanna speak with you about this!". Ron did even stay at Harrys side and did hear how his own parents said that Harry was in the head of the snake. Still he don't go to Harry and say I wanna talk to you or ask if he is allright. His parents didn't know that Harry know they know it how his dream was really or that they think he might be dangerous. But Ron know it and still don't do anything. I mean to come and tell dinner is ready isn't like to say I wanna speak with you or to say How are you mate?

And Harry did propably expect this at this moment as he did lay in his bed and Ron said just Dinner is ready?! How dos he come to this idea that they avoid him if not because off Rons reaction?

3. Hunger. Harry was "trying to ignore how hungry he felt" when Hermione demanded entrance -- and then she says Mrs Weasley has sent sandwiches up to his room. Yum.

He didn't open because he was hungry and he didn't follow her because of any sandwiches. He did because he know he can't anymore hid. I mean the door was open what do you expect he make the door closing again?

For me is it interest how JKR did that scene. Look as reader I did really think its kinda strange that Hermione is left out by this whole "I'm so worry about Mr. Weasley" scene by the this would be very interest if JKR did bring her in that scene but anyway I really thought JKR don't gonna to left her out there, dos she? Just at that moment as I lose hope, like Harry did lose hope, that JKR bring Hermione in at this christmas and this whole scenerie. JKR bring surprise, surprise Hermione hammering again the door and want speak with Harry. Just from the literary way is that IMO kinda very interest that JKR did write it exact that way. I mean come on it was a surprise, wasn't it? Didn't you too think **** where is this interfering girl? And just as Harry mood gos the loo down there we go and she is back on the track just ironic.

[Bloodpop]

I haven't posted in here since reading the fifth edition of the Harry Potter series, the main reason was I wanted to mole over the information put forth by JK, but the secondary reason is that I don't feel I have to defend my ships anymore. JK surely, although very subtely put the final nails in the rival ships, and I now feel more then ever that the outcome of the series main "ships" will be R/H, H/G.

Think about it, what were arguments against these pairings?
1. Ron's a prat, and can't understand Hermione on a mature level.
Who threw the most insults in this book? Emotional level of a teaspoon anyone? No in this one JK allowed Ron to grow up, and for the first time Ron was the more mature of the two, the two being Ron and Hermione. Instead of going off half-cocked, he tried reasoning, and coaxing her into to agreeing with him.
2. Hermione doesn't like Ron.
This is sort of a gray area, but there was one giant clue in this book and it came directly from Hermione's mouth.
What day was Harry's date with Cho on?
Valentine's day right.
What did Hermione do on Valentine's Day?
Threatened Skeeter with extortion and sat around the common room, correct?
What did Ron do?
Quidditch Practice.
How is this important? Well how would you feel if the boy you liked, let Valentine's day slip by without so much as a word. You'd feel a little upset, that maybe he was the most unaware person on the planet.
Ok, let me explain myself.
Harry and Hermione are sitting discussing the date with Cho and Cho's eventual water-works. Hermiones tells Harry that he should have told Cho he thought she was ugly. Harry's response is "But I don't think your ugly.", this answer(which any red-blood male like myself will tell you) is standard issue, and Hermione laughs because she knows this is the typical placaiting male response. So she tells him " Oh, Harry your as bad as Ron( or does she say worse then? I can't recall I dont have the book in front of me) ." So heres the twist, Ron comes trudging through the door looking thoroughly tired from a hard Quidditch practice. What does Hermione do, she makes a sour face and says, " Wait no your not." she's referring to the comment she just made about Harry being the same as Ron. But why? What is she talking about? Why does Ron deserve a poke for simply walking throught the door? He hasn't done anything towards her, no disservice, at this point in the scene he can't even hear what she's saying. So why the rude comment?
It's like I said before, she was a bit put off for having Valentine's day come and go without so much as a peep out the boy she has her eye on, you can almost hear her thinking " No, Harry isn't as bad as Ron, atleast he went on a date with his crush, albeit a very short date, but it was still something." So all you H/Hr, answer this question.

Why did Hermione feel she had to cut Ron down a notch, when he had'nt affronted her, in any visible way?

3.Ginny Weasley is just a fan girl.
Well, JK, simply threw this argument out the window, and even gave the former fan a new beau. Frankly I thought the use of comparisons between Harry and Ginny in this book, all but cemented their future together. Harry has already shown an affinity for female seekers. So what does JK do, throws Harry off the team and puts Ginny in his place. Then has her grab the snitch right out from under cho's nose. As if that wasn't convicing enough, JK has Cho Harry's crush, and Michael Ginny's boyfriend, together at the end. Come on people, have you ever heard the term, LIKE A BULL IN A CHINA SHOP? Thats what that clue was to me. Not only did JK take Cho and Michael out of the equation, she's also saying that people Harry and Ginny have found attractive, and vice versa, have found each other attractive. That there is the possibilty of an attraction between the two.
4. Harry doesn't notice Ginny Weasley.
Harry noticed Ginny plenty in this book, from her celebrating his return from the trial to her suddenly realizing she spoke to him, to the comfortable scene in the library with the chocalote egg and Ginny looking wind swept. I have a feeling Harry's knight will be quivering in front of Ron's queen plenty in the last two books.


Well that's for now, let the disscusion begin.

Ive reposted this because I didnt get as much feedback as I would like.

[GilyAnn]

When I was scrolling through the messages I came across HMS CHOCOLATE. Upon further investigation, it represented the h/g or hr/r ship'. Why is it chocolate? I have tried for a considerable length of time to put together words affiliating with Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny....but have yet to come across words or the like that come up with the word "chocolate".....I'm lost. Anybody want to fill me up here?

Because Chocolate has wonderful properties. In PoA Lupin gives out chocolate to the affected by Dementors. In OoP Ginny, Neville and Luna share Chocolate frog cards. And we have the Chocolate Easter Egg library scene. Easters eggs and Chocolate is a wonderful combination. Chocolate is a feeling not a taste!

So H/G is the HMS Chocolate at least in here!


I can't remember that Harry did ever speak about his emotions to Ginny. The only time Harry did speak about that what he feels there was always Hermione and Ron there. For example In PoA as Harry speak how he feels that the best friend of his parents did betray them or in OotP How he felt that he was complet by his own. He never did this with Ginny not once. So why should he turn to her now? Because of this Library chat or because she said how Voldemort possed her?

Because he is growing up. As you grow up you changed. *I* personally feel that in the next book the trio is being break down as the sign of coming to age. Harry had no reason to talk to Ginny in the library scene but he did. He had no reason to confide in her that he wanted to talk to Sirius when his own two friends didn't know about it. He may find Ginny an easier person to talk than Ron and Hermione. Is one of the reasons I'm soooooo glad that Ginny is not part of the trio.

About this Voldemort scene, I don't hate or dislike Ginny I think she is nice, its for me as if she want show him or better remeind him that he is not the only one who has meet Voldemort or was possed. Its like in other words don't moan around there are other people who had to suffer for example herself. If you look at this scene Ginny say it angry that she know how it is to be possed and not Harry. This don't sound for me at first carring it was much more saying he isn't the victim she was it. Practiculary he have to be act more as a hero and not like a victim. On hand this scene I doubt she understand him, but this is only me.

Harry is prone to wallow in self emotion. The fact that Ginny is able to stop making him do that. Is a very good sign. The fact is that if Harry would have stop being the selfpity boy that he was being. They would have been able to figure out that he wasn't the Weapon. But he was avoiding them and making stuff in his head. Which is never a good thing. The fact is that Ginny did had an experience that Harry had never had. Avoiding everybody Harry wasn't going to solve anything. Ginny reminded him that he wasn't the only that have had an encounter with Voldemort.

Gily Ann

Edit: I think Mad I Moody answer the part of why not Ginny. I agree Harry is avoiding the Weasley's. He is avoiding them all by either making them believe that he was asleep or by not going down to dinner.

[humongoratdropping]

Why repost your original post...not enough replies??

Anyway, your points are very valid. From female Seekers to Cho and Corner, there are definite signs that Harry will finally date Ginny.

[Mad-I Moody]

FlyingPhoenix,
I don't think it's ironic, no. I think that Harry's attitude toward the Weasleys following the St. Mungo's visit made it abundantly clear to them that he didn't want to be bothered. page 493 "Here was a ready-made excuse not to talk to the others, which was precisely what he wanted."

Ron calls upstairs for him, and even enters the room, but remember that Harry is sleeping at this time, dreaming again about the Department of Mysteries. Ron comes in, assumes Harry is asleep, and goes back down to dinner. When he comes back up to bed, Harry is still asleep. What's he going to do, shake him awake and say "Hey there, mate. So, how're you doing today? You'd better come out of this funk, now." NO, he wouldn't do that. He's being respectful of Harry's desire to be alone. Harry jumps to the conclusion that Ron doesn't want to be around him, but Harry doesn't consider the fact that Ron just found him asleep.

He didn't open because he was hungry and he didn't follow her because of any sandwiches. He did because he know he can't anymore hid. I mean the door was open what do you expect he make the door closing again?

I was only offering that as one of the 4 non-romantically motivated reasons for why Harry left Buckbeak's room for his own. Hermione was much more forceful with Harry, that is why he opened the door in the first place, not because he was like "Oh, good! It's Hermione! The only person who understands me! I'm so glad she's here!"

[FlyingPhoenix]

It's like I said before, she was a bit put off for having Valentine's day come and go without so much as a peep out the boy she has her eye on, you can almost hear her thinking " No, Harry isn't as bad as Ron, atleast he went on a date with his crush, albeit a very short date, but it was still something." So all you H/Hr, answer this question.

This is possible no doubt but on the other hand she spent the whole day with Harry, right! So if Ron has a crush or feelings for her didn't he think she isn't interest in him?

Now to my answer to your question I did it already in a way. As I said that this is if I say Hermione likes Harry but nor Ron. Than is Ron worst as Harry.
She said first Harry is worst as he said he don't think she is ugly. Let say she likes him more as a friend but he has said in this moment that he fany Cho off course she do say he is worrst because he keep ignore her in that way yet he say she isn't ugly not very helpful. Now Ron comes in. Yeah there walks her very problem in and she know that she don't like him but he seems to like her.
She can't go and tell him that he likes her. I mean how would he react? Not that pleasent I guess. So she has to wait till he get ride off it or comes to her, now comes the worst part, and she have to break his heart. So indeed Ron is worst, because he is really her problem and not a clueless Harry.
Harry noticed Ginny plenty in this book, from her celebrating his return from the trial to her suddenly realizing she spoke to him, to the comfortable scene in the library with the chocalote egg and Ginny looking wind swept. I have a feeling Harry's knight will be quivering in front of Ron's queen plenty in the last two books.

He did notice it two weeks after he was at the 12G. Library scene is nice but so nice that every friend of Harry who isn't Hermione and Ron could have say that. She didn't do much just offer to get her brothers which solve this problem.

So what does JK do, throws Harry off the team and puts Ginny in his place. Then has her grab the snitch right out from under cho's nose. As if that wasn't convicing enough, JK has Cho Harry's crush, and Michael Ginny's boyfriend, together at the end. Come on people, have you ever heard the term, LIKE A BULL IN A CHINA SHOP?

Harry didn't saw that she catch the snitch like Hermione didn't saw that Ron won.

[sone]

Like I said, I found interesting how quickly she got him out of that room. Forcefully or not, Harry never backs down easily. His beef with Umbridge is proof of that.

[humongoratdropping]

Does it really matter that Harry didn't witness that?? I feel Harry will definitely remember that in the future, the crappy and dismantled Gryffindor Quidditch team saved by Ginny's catch.

[Mad-I Moody]

Like I said, I found interesting how quickly she got him out of that room. Forcefully or not, Harry never backs down easily. His beef with Umbridge is proof of that.


Harry (a) doesn't have time to even think about ignoring Hermione -- element of surprise there -- because she catches him completely off his guard and (b) isn't avoiding Hermione, because he doesn't know that she knows what the Weasleys overheard at St. Mungo's.

Besides, let us say that it was Hermione and only Hermione would could have reached Harry (even though I don't see how this one little paragraph signifies her "reaching" him). What would that mean to the ship? That Hermione is the only one for Harry because she can get him out of the room? That doesn't hold a lot of water, does it? Well, then, does it mean that Harry has such respect and good feelings for Hermione that she is the only one who could convince him to leave the confines of Buckbeak's room? The rest of the conversation doesn't really support that. Harry is stiff, glaring, angry, he snaps at Hermione, he growls at her....and she gets rather sharp with him, too. OK, tough love you say? Well, what about Ginny in this scene, when she is "quite unabashed" to look at Harry in the eye and say "You won't look at any of us!" How is that not comparable to Hermione's forcefulness?

[sone]

Well yes, it does matter. Cho should be an example of just because a girl loves Quidditch or even likes playing it does not mean she is going to get Harry.

[Mad-I Moody]

yes, sone, Cho is a good example of what Harry's next crush should NOT be - overly emotional and a little crazy. her Quidditch abilities are the only things she has in common with Harry. Ginny is everything Cho is not - strong, willful, not creepily emotional, (and, I believe, one could argue this for Hermione as well) -- but she is good at Quidditch. That's all she has in common with Cho.

[FlyingPhoenix]

The point is not that only Hermione can get him out of the room its much more the fact it is Hermione who do that. I mean JKR had planty possibles to put this scene. She didn't need Hermione for that. What about Sirius? or Remus? All possibles but she chose Hermione the very last which I did expect to turn up.
It is interest for me.
This is irionic how JKR describe how more and more Harry gos down in his mood and just as he is near of the bottom of that someone is hammering against the door that is indeed ironic if I think back how much he wanted to open this door in his dream. Simply a strange way to write this scene.

[humongoratdropping]

Yes, Ginny is not a human hosepipe, unlike Cho. She actually has strength of character. (watch her resist the Imperius Curse with ease)

[Ecthelion]

The point is not that only Hermione can get him out of the room its much more the fact it is Hermione who do that. I mean JKR had planty possibles to put this scene. She didn't need Hermione for that. What about Sirius? or Remus? All possibles but she chose Hermione the very last which I did expect to turn up.
It is interest for me.
This is irionic how JKR describe how more and more Harry gos down in his mood and just as he is near of the bottom of that someone is hammering against the door that is indeed ironic if I think back how much he wanted to open this door in his dream. Simply a strange way to write this scene.

FP, here is another example of her getting something out of Harry where nobody else could. It's quite significant by the way.

page 560 American Version OotP
"I've been meaning to ask you for ages....Did Cedric---did he m-m-mention me at all before he died?"
This was the very last subject on earth Harry wanted to discuss, and least of all with Cho.

First of all, let's get down what he doesn't want to: Talk about Cedric. Now consider the scope of his statement in the bold. "....the last thing on earth..." That is a very strong and emphasized statement there, especially from Harry. He really really does not want to talk about it as is obvious. Yet a few pages farther and.....

pg. 569 American Version OotP
"Okay, Harry?" said Hermione, turning to him. "Ready to tell the public the truth?"
"I suppose," said Harry, watching Rita balnacin ghte Quick-Quotes Quill at the ready on the parchment between them.

Wow. After plainly stateing that Cedric was "the last thing he wanted to talk about on earth", here he is breaching the wall that he has so carefully constructed. So. What made the difference? What was the deciding factor that made him do so?......Hermione. Yet another instance where his all-encompassing respect and love for her shows it's true colors.

[Elric]

I suppose another interesting point arising out of Hermione getting Harry to start talking to everyone, is this.

Either Hermione offered to try to talk to Harry and get him out of Buckbeak's room, or she was asked to do it, if this was the case I'd guess it was Mrs Weasley that was doing the asking, what with the fire being lit, sandwiches etc.

This at least hints at one of two intriguing possibilities. Firstly that Hermione believes that she can get through to Harry, even if others have failed to do so. Alternately someone else who was at 12GP believes that Hermione is able to reach Harry when others have failed.

Alternative interpretations welcome of course.

[Turambar]

I don't think Valentine's Day is great for R/Hr:
1) Ron gives no thought to it on the day for thinking about romance, he doesn't go to Hogsmeade with Hermione when Harry is conveniently preoccupied with Cho.
2) Hermione, who remember once gave Lockhart a Valentine's day card, shows no interest in spending time with Ron on Valentine's Day and instead asks Harry to meet her even though harry is going on his VERY FIRST DATE.
3) Harry meets Cho and then Hermione on Valentine's Day, the day of romance, exactly the same sequence as in his dream where Cho turns into hermione.

[Mad-I Moody]

All possibles but she chose Hermione the very last which I did expect to turn up.

I personally expected Hermione to show up. I didn't think JKR would separate the trio at Christmas again. I don't see the significance of it being her to get Harry out -- she's one of his best friends. He was ignoring the other best friend, so it seems logical, to me, that she would be able to get him out of the room (but she doesn't break his moodiness -- it's Ginny who does that). It doesn't seem at all surprising - nothing about that scene between Harry and Hermione suggested to me that there were deeper feelings.

As far as talking to Hermione about Cedric versus not wanting to talk to Cho about it...
Again, I don't see how "loving" Hermione influences this at all.
The last thing he wants to talk about on his date with the girl he likes is how her ex-boyfriend died. Not wholly unreasonable. The quote says that it is the last thing on earth he wants to talk about least of all with Cho.

Think of the situations: they are completely different. OK, so you're Harry, and you're on a date with the girl you have liked for two years, your first date with her -- your first real date at all -- and she wants to ask you about her ex-boyfriend's death, which you witnessed. She doesn't just want to know what happened, she wants to know if he mentioned her. Sheesh -- what are you going to think? Of COURSE that is the last thing on your mind, the last thing you want to talk about. This is your DATE, and she's screwing it all up.

So she walks out on you and you, flustered, go and meet Hermione at the Three Broomsticks. Hermione, apart from being one of your best friends, offers you a chance to finally tell the truth about what happened the night Voldemort came back -- she doesn't want to discuss Cedric specifically, she wants Harry to talk about Voldemort. Cedric is part of that story, yes, but not THE story. So you're offered a chance to have the truth PUBLISHED, where many people will read it and people might actually stop thinking you are a nutter. This is completely different than the girl you have a crush on asking you to tell her about her ex-boyfriend's death, and I just don't see how it has anything to do with Harry's feelings toward Hermione.

[Ecthelion]

As far as talking to Hermione about Cedric versus not wanting to talk to Cho about it...
Again, I don't see how "loving" Hermione influences this at all.
The last thing he wants to talk about on his date with the girl he likes is how her ex-boyfriend died. Not wholly unreasonable. The quote says that it is the last thing on earth he wants to talk about least of all with Cho

mhm. Ok, first of all, just because a person says "love'' in the "love thread" doesn't necissarily mean the romantic type. I admit, I should have clarified, but still. The love I'm talking about is the one that we see residing in the trio, or any great group of friends. It's the thing that makes them stay together, the part of them that protects the other.

Please note: I am not saying that Harry and Hermione are getting together...I'm just giving reasons why they should. So please, I'm just trying to make a qualified and planate conversation here. So I'm not trying to irk you or whatever, just trying to get a civil debate going. :)

Anyways....I know the quote says that it is the last thing on earth he wants to talk about...least of all with cho. But still, I think you mis-interpreted the statement. It is still the last thing he wants to talk about, and cho just happens to be the one whom he wants to talk about it the least. The fact remains that he doesn't want to talk about this to anybody....but minutes afterwords, he does so for Hermione. That is what I see as significant. Cho really has nothing to do with it. And niether does Cedric for that matter. It is the events that circulate around him that Harry really doesn't want to talk about. Cedric's just happens to be one of the worst. So really, when saying he doesn't want to talk about Cedric, it is generally relating to that night.

[sone]

Actually Ginny does not break his moodiness. She is the first to start, but it is the added weight of what Ron and Hermione said that kills it.

[Fairydust]

I don't think Valentine's Day is great for R/Hr:
1) Ron gives no thought to it on the day for thinking about romance, he doesn't go to Hogsmeade with Hermione when Harry is conveniently preoccupied with Cho.
2) Hermione, who remember once gave Lockhart a Valentine's day card, shows no interest in spending time with Ron on Valentine's Day and instead asks Harry to meet her even though harry is going on his VERY FIRST DATE.
3) Harry meets Cho and then Hermione on Valentine's Day, the day of romance, exactly the same sequence as in his dream where Cho turns into hermione.

1. Ron could not go into Hogsmeade because he had practice. "Are you coming? Harry asked Ron, but he shook his head looking glum. "I can't come into Hogsmeade at all...full's day training..." Ron had practice so he couldn't go. But that's not to say he didn't want to go. He was looking glum afterall.

2. I'm sure Hermione knows that Ron has practice. And so wouldn't bother to ask him because she'd know that he couldn't go. Or she might have already asked her when Harry wasn't around and he told her he had practice.

3. It's not Harry's fault that he had to meet Hermione on Valentine's day. I'm sure that any other day would have been good. It just so happened that the Hogsmeade trip was on February 14. And the only reason he met up with Hermione is because she made him promise to meet her. She told him it was really important. Harry would not stand up a friend and had to go.

yup. there are some answers. :agree:

[Mad-I Moody]

Actually Ginny does not break his moodiness. She is the first to start, but it is the added weight of what Ron and Hermione said that kills it.


OK, I agree with that. :) So, how does this make Hermione into that extra-special girl? It seems to be more of an equalizing scene than anything else.

[sone]

Actually it is Harry's fault he had to meet Hermione. He agreed to it, Hermione did not hold a gun to his head.

OK, I agree with that. :) So, how does this make Hermione into that extra-special girl? It seems to be more of an equalizing scene than anything else.

You tell me. That is not a question I was asking. Like I said, I do not know what the big deal is. All I found interesting was how quickly Hermione managed to get Harry out of that room. Though I did not find too flattering to Ginny that he actually forgot that Ginny was actually possessed by Voldemort.

[Bloodpop]

This is possible no doubt but on the other hand she spent the whole day with Harry, right! So if Ron has a crush or feelings for her didn't he think she isn't interest in him?

Now to my answer to your question I did it already in a way. As I said that this is if I say Hermione likes Harry but nor Ron. Than is Ron worst as Harry.
She said first Harry is worst as he said he don't think she is ugly. Let say she likes him more as a friend but he has said in this moment that he fany Cho off course she do say he is worrst because he keep ignore her in that way yet he say she isn't ugly not very helpful. Now Ron comes in. Yeah there walks her very problem in and she know that she don't like him but he seems to like her.
She can't go and tell him that he likes her. I mean how would he react? Not that pleasent I guess. So she has to wait till he get ride off it or comes to her, now comes the worst part, and she have to break his heart. So indeed Ron is worst, because he is really her problem and not a clueless Harry.


He did notice it two weeks after he was at the 12G. Library scene is nice but so nice that every friend of Harry who isn't Hermione and Ron could have say that. She didn't do much just offer to get her brothers which solve this problem.



Harry didn't saw that she catch the snitch like Hermione didn't saw that Ron won.
Ok, so what your saying, is that Hermione, who secretly knows Ron likes her, and she herself does not like him, made a snide remark about him because she doesnt want to break his heart?
UMMM, ok, well, I guess it could be true. But that isnt a very strong arguement against the one I presented. I mean its so unHermione. Your saying she has some type of resentment against Ron for liking her, and that he might put her in a position of hurting him. It just doesnt seem very likely when put in context with the rest of the book. We continually see both Ron and Hermione in comfortable situations together if she really felt that way, I think we would see less of them together. And it isnt like Ron is going around shouting out his feelings.
And I cant really see how Hermione could be discussing her crushs(Harry) date with another girl so casually, on Valentines of all days, and then turn around and be upset that someone might really care about her. I dont know, that reasoning just might be a little to convient for your respective ship.

One other note on the library scene, was I the only one that got the symbolism of the chocalote? Harry and Ginny were sharing, chocalote. What do they say chocalote is comparable to?

[Turambar]

Posted by Fairydust:
1. Ron could not go into Hogsmeade because he had practice. "Are you coming? Harry asked Ron, but he shook his head looking glum. "I can't come into Hogsmeade at all...full's day training..." Ron had practice so he couldn't go. But that's not to say he didn't want to go. He was looking glum afterall.

2. I'm sure Hermione knows that Ron has practice. And so wouldn't bother to ask him because she'd know that he couldn't go. Or she might have already asked her when Harry wasn't around and he told her he had practice.

3. It's not Harry's fault that he had to meet Hermione on Valentine's day. I'm sure that any other day would have been good. It just so happened that the Hogsmeade trip was on February 14. And the only reason he met up with Hermione is because she made him promise to meet her. She told him it was really important. Harry would not stand up a friend and had to go.
xxxxxx

But it comes down to the choices the author makes while writing. This is Valentine's Day, symbolic of romance, and JKR chooses to have Ron completely out of the action with practice. A full day's practice. While everyone else is going to Hogsmeade. Including two other quidditch players Cho and Rodger Davies. Who clearly weren't using the time to practicise.
It's all very convenient isn't it? Why not write in a line about Ron mentioning Valentine's Day to Hermione. Just showing any interest at all in her or her in him. But no Valentine's Day is all about Harry/Cho/Hermione. Why didn't JKR write Hermione asking Ron what he was doing on Valentine's Day?

[Elric]

Things didn't just turn out like they did, that's how JKR wrote it.

The quidditch practice could have been a day later, or day earlier, depending on whether the 14th was a Saturday or Sunday, so there was no 'need' for the clash of scheduling. Ron could have had his day out in Hogsmeade, but for whatever reason that's not how Jo wrote it.

The meeting with Rita Skeeter is more problematic, I don't think she would have been allowed into Hogwarts to do the interview, so they had to meet in Hogsmeade, which meant clashing with the current trip, or waiting for the next one.

[Turambar]

That's my point Elric. Harry was conveniently out of the way with Cho and yet Ron does not go to Hogsmeade with hermione on Valentine's Day. It would have been the perfect scenario to build R/Hr.

[sone]

Ah yes, the fine line between coincidence....and fate.

[Fairydust]

Why didn't JKR write Hermione asking Ron what he was doing on Valentine's Day?

She obviously wrote it like that to keep us guessing whether Hermione did ask Ron about it. For all we know Hermione could have already known about Ron's practice and so didn't want to ask him whether he could come because that would make him feel even more glum. Another reason why we didn't see her ask him in the presence of Harrywas that maybe she already asked him when Harry wasn't around. We don't know. We can only speculate. But i'm pretty sure Hermione probably asked him to meet her in Hogsmeade. I mean, why would she leave him out of it? Hermione wouldn't leave Ron out of the dark like that.

[BabyMars]

1. Ron could not go into Hogsmeade because he had practice. "Are you coming? Harry asked Ron, but he shook his head looking glum. "I can't come into Hogsmeade at all...full's day training..." Ron had practice so he couldn't go. But that's not to say he didn't want to go. He was looking glum afterall.

Yes, Ron did look glum. He had to pass up an opportunity to go to honeydukes.

2. I'm sure Hermione knows that Ron has practice. And so wouldn't bother to ask him because she'd know that he couldn't go. Or she might have already asked her when Harry wasn't around and he told her he had practice.

This is pure speculation. It doesn't matter if the books are written in Harry's POV, if it's not in the text, it didn't happen.

3. It's not Harry's fault that he had to meet Hermione on Valentine's day. I'm sure that any other day would have been good. It just so happened that the Hogsmeade trip was on February 14. And the only reason he met up with Hermione is because she made him promise to meet her. She told him it was really important. Harry would not stand up a friend and had to go.

Hermione told Harry he could bring Cho along and Harry didn't object to meeting her either.

Cheers *smooch*

EDIT: I agree Turambar. Besides Valentine's day, there are many other opportunities JKR could have used to build the R/Hr relationship, (for example, at Grimwuald Place, prefect duties, ect.) , but didn't.

[Elric]

Turambar, I was agreeing with the point you made, it was just that I was unaware of it at the time, as I was responding to the points raised by Fairydust while you were posting.

Another interesting point about the whole Valentines Day thing. We have one episode of Harry meeting with a girl, Cho, which goes disastrously wrong.

This is immediately followed with Harry in another meeting with a girl, Hermione, which goes well and allows Harry to finally tell his story and so relieve some of the burden he was under.

All of the work Hermione did was purely out of a desire to help Harry, nothing in it for her, at least directly, and she has to deal with Rita Skeeter someone she can't abide, and all on Valentines day as well.

Surely going above and beyond the call of duty on Hermione's part. :)

[voldemort rules]

VOLDEMORT RULES!!!!! long live LORD VLODEMORT

[GryffindorGal]

Things didn't just turn out like they did, that's how JKR wrote it.

The quidditch practice could have been a day later, or day earlier, depending on whether the 14th was a Saturday or Sunday, so there was no 'need' for the clash of scheduling. Ron could have had his day out in Hogsmeade, but for whatever reason that's not how Jo wrote it.

The meeting with Rita Skeeter is more problematic, I don't think she would have been allowed into Hogwarts to do the interview, so they had to meet in Hogsmeade, which meant clashing with the current trip, or waiting for the next one.

Not really. Skeeter is an animagus. It would have been easy for her to transform, fly into Hogwarts do the interview in the Room of Requirement and then fly off.

[Turambar]

Posted by Fairydust:
She obviously wrote it like that to keep us guessing whether Hermione did ask Ron about it. For all we know Hermione could have already known about Ron's practice and so didn't want to ask him whether he could come because that would make him feel even more glum. Another reason why we didn't see her ask him in the presence of Harrywas that maybe she already asked him when Harry wasn't around. We don't know. We can only speculate. But i'm pretty sure Hermione probably asked him to meet her in Hogsmeade. I mean, why would she leave him out of it? Hermione wouldn't leave Ron out of the dark like that.
xxxxxxx
There is no text to support this.
The point is everyone thinks about romance on Valentine's day. If R/Hr have feelings for each other, why didn't we see a few hints in the text that they were each thinking even a bit about each other on this day? Like I mentioned before Hermione gave Lockhart a card on Valentine's day. A card may have been too obvious for Ron but why not bring him back some sweets from Honeydukes as a present.? Really it's not too difficult.

[Elric]

GryffindorGal, you're quite correct, Rita could have assumed her insect form, and flown into Hogwarts.

I was thinking mainly of GOF when all of Rita's articles were appearing and Hermione couldn't understand how she was getting them as Rita wasn't allowed on school grounds.

I just assumed that the restriction still stood and that Rita was still prohibited from Hogwarts, and that Hermione wouldn't break the rules to get Rita to interview Harry.

I was making assumptions that may not be justified, oops!

[GilyAnn]

Why didn't JKR write Hermione asking Ron what he was doing on Valentine's Day?

For the same reason that Ginny couldn't go with Harry to the Yule Ball and Hermione had a date already. Because it's still to early to have couples. There are other things that they will have to be played out before having couples.

Gily Ann

[Bexfizz]

For the same reason that Ginny couldn't go with Harry to the Yule Ball and Hermione had a date already. Because it's still to early to have couples. There are other things that they will have to be played out before having couples.

Gily Ann


Exactly, there are a lot of 'whys' to what JK does, but we have assume that the answers will eventually come. :agree:

By the way Gily Ann love your Harry and Ginny picture where did you get that from.

[sone]

Technically, they're already are couples, just not the ones most HP fans are anticipating.

[Fairydust]

can i change the topic just for a bit. i want to know if anyone thinks that Snape will fall in love or whatnot. i for one would like to see snape with a love interest. anyone else want to see this also happen?

[snitch14]

Do you really think Snape has enough good in him to love someone? It would seem highly unlikely, but then again, love works in strange ways.

Though I can't imagine Snape with a wife and a kid. XD

[Fairydust]

if love can work in mysterious ways then i can totally see Snape hooking up with someone. i mean, i read on a site transcript that JK hasn't actually thought about it but she actually didn't rule it out. i wouldn't mind having Snape hook up with someone. maybe the new dada teacher? now that would be intriguing.

[snitch14]

hmm..didn't we all think that the 5th book's DADA teacher would be snape's love interest?

[Bexfizz]

Actually that got me thinking, i would like to see Lupin get into a relationship, It just kind of strikes me as odd that out of all the Mauraders, James was the only one to settle down and have a family, granted Sirius had a good enough reason what with being in Azkaban, and Peter was a rat, but whats Lupin's excuse?

[Fairydust]

Lupin's excuse is that he's a werewolf and therefore would probably endanger his girl or whatnot. I also want Lupin to have a love interest. He seems to no longer have anybody and I'd want someone for his character.

[snitch14]

well, lupin, [i feel so sorry for him, so alone] he SHOULD get a love interest. but even so, he wouldn't want to have a kid. that would mean that his child might be a werewolf, genetically speaking. he might even be afraid to get involved with someone too much, that might endanger their lives. though if he takes the wolfsbane potion, then i dun see the harm

[Nia]

Why didn't JKR write Hermione asking Ron what he was doing on Valentine's Day?
Gily Ann's Response:
For the same reason that Ginny couldn't go with Harry to the Yule Ball and Hermione had a date already. Because it's still to early to have couples. There are other things that they will have to be played out before having couples.
*****

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, Gily Ann, but this response of yours doesn't make sense from the arguments you have forwarded in the past 2000-plus posts. You have been arguing that there is plenty of Harry/Ginny forshadowing for those with eyes to see it. For Hermione to ask Ron what he was doing for Valentine's Day hardly constitutes forming a couple it would quite simply be a nice bit of foreshadowing for the R/Hr relationship. There were a hundred different things JKR could have done with Valentine's Day including a query by Ron as to whether 'Vicky' sent a card or 'if Hermione was going into Hogsmead alone,' but she didn't. The point being made was that had JKR wanted to forshadow R/Hr, she missed a golden opportunity right here. It's quite right for my Harmony shipmates to argue that there are some very telling gaps in the Ron/Hermione relationship if, as some members of the good ship HMS Heron assert, they both have feelings for each other.

Posted by Turambur:
The point is everyone thinks about romance on Valentine's day. If R/Hr have feelings for each other, why didn't we see a few hints in the text that they were each thinking even a bit about each other on this day? Like I mentioned before Hermione gave Lockhart a card on Valentine's day. A card may have been too obvious for Ron but why not bring him back some sweets from Honeydukes as a present.? Really it's not too difficult.

The point being made is that we see nothing. Even subconscious feelings could have been hinted at by JKR if she wished to show them, even using Harry's point of view.

BTW, great reasoning, Turambar, in your post 2128 :tu:

[Fairydust]

snitch 14, i don't think that werewolf genes can be passed on genetically. i think you'd have to be bitten by a werewolf in order to become one.

[Sarmi]

Hey guys!

First off great posts everyone!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I don't have much to say, but I hopefully will be later. :shrug: Who knows!

Hawk - :welcome: back!!!!! :clap:

MEM - Can I still hold my status as an Auror while a Jedi????? Please????

See y'all laters!!!

Sarmi

[snitch14]

snitch 14, i don't think that werewolf genes can be passed on genetically. i think you'd have to be bitten by a werewolf in order to become one.


i dunno, i'm just guessing. maybe ur right

[Bexfizz]

I think Fairdust is right, you can only become a warewolf by being bit by one.
I heard somewhere about Lupin and Tonks getting together, it could happen considering their both in the OoTP, it just seems very sad that Lupin feels that he has to be alone all his life because of what he is. I mean he's lived thirty years like that, its bound to get depressing after a while.

[Fairydust]

I wonder if Lupin had a love interest at Hogwarts. I mean, sure he wasn't the best looking one in the group, but he was smart, and nice, and caring. that would certainly attract some. it really sucks that he doesn't have anyone.

[Narami]

Poor Lupin :upset:. He might find someone... maybe...
Oh and GREAT post sone :clap:, flyingpheonix :tu: and everyone!

[humongoratdropping]

Female werewolves that Lupin meets in Book 6 or 7?? Let's cross our fingers

[Narami]

No one is there posting anymore (??) :scared:
C'mon, where's everybody... :wow:

[AvadaKedavra]

Hi you all!

First things first. Great posts everybody! :clap:

Looking through an hundred new posts while I have been away for only less than 24 hours can be a little daunting, so forgive me if I miss anything out. Just point it out. Ok, let’s start.

Evaluna

particularly the part about love being critical to the storyline from Harry’s POV and critical in his overcoming or turning or somehow superceding Voldy

I was referring to the R/Hr romance. As for love being critical for his beating Voldemort, I don’t deny this. What I do dispute is that the speed of people jump to the assumption that this love will be Hermione’s romantic love. But then, I’m a R/Hr shipper. :p

BTW, please don’t take my view as an “R/Hr” general view. (Just making sure. :D)

JKR:

"It irritates me. It irritates me. What irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly, being asked 'Can we have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side order of chips. I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?' She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.

Aha! Thank you, Gily Ann for digging the whole quote up. Interesting to see how some H/Hr have manipulated the quote and omitted the context of which it was said. Rather like the way canon is sometimes treated, in fact. It is clear that JKR is saying “Harry needs her badly” to reinforce her statement that Hermione is a strong female character. JKR also says that Ron needs her, but I would accept that since Harry has a lot more problems, and relies on his friends more, it would be perfectly natural that he would need Hermione’s support than Ron would.

i mean to assume that JK put Buckbeak, there for the reason to foreshadow Harry and Harmione's love, is taking a pretty big leap. Sure she hides clues in her writing, but considering that she's writing for children i doubt the clues would be buried that deep in the text.

True.

Mad I Moody

May I give you a :clap: for that excellent hippogriff analysis. And I am simply at a loss for words at your Hermione at 12GP Xmas analysis- that is truly :wow: Basically, there’s nothing to add, just to add my complete agreement.

However, I would like to point some things out.

Sone

Like I said, I found interesting how quickly she got him out of that room.

Oh no. *sighs.*

Harry is tired. He hasn’t had much sleep. He is worried, and has been worrying for a LONG time. He is hungry. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he deep, down was wanting someone to come and kick him out of his misery. Also, there is also the unexpected *element.

Think that’s more than enough to justify the view that 12GP at Xmas HAD absolutely NO romantic connotations. Want to continue debating that? BTW, as for Buckbeak, I would think that people like to be in the presence of an animal when they are highly upset. Unless I’m a very different person with no relation to the human race(I hope not), I would have thought that when you are upset, animals soothe you. It works for me, having my cat on my lap and stroking her helps.

JKR:

They're all kind of after the wrong people, as in life. Hermione gets the first date, and it's quite a cool one because I thought I owed her a bit of fun.

Very interesting indeed. I hadn’t read that quote before. But what it means, of course, is up to interpretation.

I can only speak for myself whom I consider to be reasonably articulate, and I knew nothing about hippogriffs until a few weeks ago.

:rotfl:

Neither did I, and I could be considered as the “stereotype” HP fan- in that I was Harry’s age when the books were released. (But he’s lagged behind :p). In fact, there’s an interesting article out there by someone defending all the people complaining that HP was getting increasingly older and more mature, but the author pointed out that the “original, stereotype” fans who read the book in 1997 are now 17, 18 and thinking about going to university. But, I’m sure that if we went and did a survey on 1000 HP fans, about 2 or 3 would know the full info on Hippogriffs. That’s quite a lot, isn’t it?

I cannot see him liking Ginny when he is spending more time with another girl. If Harry dreams about Ginny, if he hears her voice in his head, if there had been as many scenes with Harry and Ginny holding each other then definitely yes, I can see something.

Have you ever considered with the amount of time Harry spends with Hermione already, the extra onus of being romantic partners will be “suffocating” to say the least?

(BTW, I have kindly omitted the Ron factor, whilst some are so keen to dismiss, I myself am not, seeing as how vital the Weasleys have been to Harry. But, of course, I’m omitting this.)

1) Ron gives no thought to it on the day for thinking about romance, he doesn't go to Hogsmeade with Hermione when Harry is conveniently preoccupied with Cho.

Two words. Quidditch. Practice.

I would think that JKR chose to have Hermione in town as “an excuse” to mess things up for the H/C relationship, which as proved by the quote by JKR (after wrong people) was doomed from the start.

so what your saying, is that Hermione, who secretly knows Ron likes her, and she herself does not like him, made a snide remark about him because she doesnt want to break his heart?

BloodPop well said. And to expound upon your point.

Flying PhoenixAnd why kiss him, too? If, by your own admission, Hermione knows that Ron likes her, will kissing him do any good AT ALL? It would be so much easier to hug him, that is all. If she knew Ron liked her, why would she kiss him to cause his reaction like he did? If it’s a distractionary ploy, I slam this assumption. This is manipulation of Ron’s feelings and utterly and outrightly cruel. I refuse to accept this analysis of Hermione’s character. Not even she would stoop so low.

So that leaves you to explain why she would kiss him, if by her own admission, she knew he had feelings for her?

if it's not in the text, it didn't happen.

Hmm….

I’m going to decline from commenting on that, apart from to say that it would be better to rephrase that to say “if it’s not in the text, there’s no proof that it happened”.

I would accept that, for example, there is no scientific proof of God, but many people believe in him. Even though there is no scientific proof of God does not mean he does not exist- there is no proof to suggest otherwise. (I am not in any way using this to support R/Hr, but merely to expound my point about my suggestion for the rephrasing.)

i would like to see Lupin get into a relationship, It just kind of strikes me as odd that out of all the Mauraders, James was the only one to settle down and have a family, granted Sirius had a good enough reason what with being in Azkaban, and Peter was a rat, but whats Lupin's excuse?

Precisely. Lupin and Tonks!

And to end this post on a lighter note, I hereby launch the HMS Pink Wolf.

All welcome aboard. :lol:

Signing out,

Avada

[Auror77]

Aren't Tonks and Lupin a little weird? Tonks is much younger than Lupin after all.

[Hawk 92]

Didn't Lupin kind of meet a female werewolf in the hospital when he visited Arthur?

Cheers!

[GilyAnn]

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, Gily Ann, but this response of yours doesn't make sense from the arguments you have forwarded in the past 2000-plus posts. You have been arguing that there is plenty of Harry/Ginny forshadowing for those with eyes to see it. For Hermione to ask Ron what he was doing for Valentine's Day hardly constitutes forming a couple it would quite simply be a nice bit of foreshadowing for the R/Hr relationship. There were a hundred different things JKR could have done with Valentine's Day including a query by Ron as to whether 'Vicky' sent a card or 'if Hermione was going into Hogsmead alone,' but she didn't. The point being made was that had JKR wanted to forshadow R/Hr, she missed a golden opportunity right here. It's quite right for my Harmony shipmates to argue that there are some very telling gaps in the Ron/Hermione relationship if, as some members of the good ship HMS Heron assert, they both have feelings for each other.

It makes perfect sense! First Hermione is the one who clearly says that girls usually don't ask questions like that. Second a valentines date would acelerate the plot ages. Is one thing to go with Ron as a friend to Hogsmade and another one to go with Ron to hogsmade on San Valentines day. Is one thing for Ron to ask who's Hermione writting in the common room any day and another one that out of the blue he asked on Valentines day if Victor wrote a letter. If Rowling want pairings in the fullness of time it is still is too early to have such a strong scene on book 5. The same goes with the Yule Ball. A pattern was trying to form but it couldn't yet get there. But the foreshadowing of the couples is there.
So I haven't been contradicting myself. It's one thing to foreshadow and another one to have a strong scene like that on book5. JKR hasn't missed a golden oportunity she is saving it for the RIGHT time.

Gily Ann

[Hawk 92]

The most interesting thing about Valentines day is that there is a certain girl who is singing Weasley is our King under her breath. So I guess Luna is quite aware of where Ron is during Valentines day. Wonder why Luna would want to know?

Cheers!

[Sirius83]

Actually GilyAnn, for book 5, just something simple like Hermione bringing Ron back some Hogsmeade sweets, or Ron asking Hermione of "Vicky" sent her a card is not too strong at all, but the first would definately drop a hint that Hermione returns the feelings. Additionally, something simple like having Ron go to Hogsmeade instead of writing Quidditch practice on that day would have been great. Something simple like Harry walking into the Three Broomsticks and seeing Ron and Hermione talking while waiting on Luna and Skeeter would have been a nice opportunity to drop a hint. All the while, still keeping us guessing because Hermione would still have shown other moments where she could possibly like Harry.

Fact is however, JKR chose to leave Ron out of it all, while having Harry cut his date short to meet Hermione at the Three Broomsticks on Valentines day - that creates a certain imagery. I also noticed the interesting point that it is on Valentines Day we see Luna singing that "Weasley is our king" tune, Jedi Master Hawk - nice catch.

[Narami]

AvadaKedavra :
Harry is tired. He hasn’t had much sleep. He is worried, and has been worrying for a LONG time. He is hungry. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he deep, down was wanting someone to come and kick him out of his misery. Also, there is also the unexpected *element.

I think it was relevant the fact that, Mrs. Weasley called him, Ron, Ginny etc. etc. were there, but Harry just ignored them and they leaved him alone, maybe not to bother him, maybe because they didn't know how to deal with him at that moment but Hermione came and wasn't afraid of how he would react or anything, she cared more than that and just said "open the door now, I want to talk to you" and he didn't hesitated, he just opened, and ask her "what are you doing here?" like, you not one of the persons downstairs that now I'm miserable here.
Think that’s more than enough to justify the view that 12GP at Xmas HAD absolutely NO romantic connotations.
No one is absolutely sure there were NO romantic connotations implied! xept JK ;)
Have you ever considered with the amount of time Harry spends with Hermione already, the extra onus of being romantic partners will be “suffocating” to say the least?
Hr and Harry's time together hasn't been "soffocating" yet... they don't spend hours and hours together just looking at each other's noses , it's been more like quality than cuantity. :p
I would think that JKR chose to have Hermione in town as “an excuse” to mess things up for the H/C relationship
Interesting JK chose that hu... :eyebrows:
Auror77 Aren't Tonks and Lupin a little weird? Tonks is much younger than Lupin after all.
age difference, ups, didn't come to mind...

[Hawk 92]

I’m going to decline from commenting on that, apart from to say that it would be better to rephrase that to say “if it’s not in the text, there’s no proof that it happened”.

I would accept that, for example, there is no scientific proof of God, but many people believe in them. Even though there is no scientific proof of God means he does not exist- there is no proof to suggest otherwise. (I am not in any way using this to support R/Hr, but merely to expound my point about my suggestion for the rephrasing.)

And yet strangely enough there is a whole book of texual proof of God. :)

But as mentioned before we can all sit around and say what happened off stage and support our ships.

Cheers!

[Sirius83]

Jedi Master Hawk: Didn't you know? Hermione knew Harry wasn't a bad kisser because they kissed in that broom closet in POA, we just didn't see it! :p

(That was a joke people...a joke...)

[Sarmi]

Great posts everyone!!!! :clap: :clap:



I mean to assume that JK put Buckbeak, there for the reason to foreshadow Harry and Harmione's love, is taking a pretty big leap. Sure she hides clues in her writing, but considering that she's writing for children i doubt the clues would be buried that deep in the text.


True.


Actually, it's not that big of a leap after all. JKR consistantly uses symbolism throughout her books. Wand cores is a one good part of it, they represent the person. If we say that the symbolism of wand cores is a big leap, then why does JKR work so hard to put in the symbolism?


Harry is tired. He hasn’t had much sleep. He is worried, and has been worrying for a LONG time. He is hungry. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he deep, down was wanting someone to come and kick him out of his misery. Also, there is also the unexpected *element.

Think that’s more than enough to justify the view that 12GP at Xmas HAD absolutely NO romantic connotations. Want to continue debating that? BTW, as for Buckbeak, I would think that people like to be in the presence of an animal when they are highly upset. Unless I’m a very different person with no relation to the human race(I hope not), I would have thought that when you are upset, animals soothe you. It works for me, having my cat on my lap and stroking her helps.


I'll admit that Harry was hungry. But there was no mention of reason he came out of that room for hunger. As for tired, if I'm correct, didn't he take a nap or sleep prior to going into Buckbeak's room?

As for the presence of animal theory, I understand and do agree that animals can soothe people. However, the text contradicts that theory because Harry was still worried, even in the presence of Buckbeak.


Neither did I, and I could be considered as the “stereotype” HP fan- in that I was Harry’s age when the books were released. (But he’s lagged behind :p). In fact, there’s an interesting article out there by someone defending all the people complaining that HP was getting increasingly older and more mature, but the author pointed out that the “original, stereotype” fans who read the book in 1997 are now 17, 18 and thinking about going to university. But, I’m sure that if we went and did a survey on 1000 HP fans, about 2 or 3 would know the full info on Hippogriffs. That’s quite a lot, isn’t it?


I honestly think that there would be even less people that would know what Hippogriffs stand for. However, the HP books have been marketed towards kids, but they are more adult like. Stephen King himself has said (paraphrasing here) that these books can no longer be classified as children's literature, but just literature.


Two words. Quidditch. Practice.

I would think that JKR chose to have Hermione in town as “an excuse” to mess things up for the H/C relationship, which as proved by the quote by JKR (after wrong people) was doomed from the start.


Correct about the Quidditch Practice, but why? Why didn't JKR show Ron asking Hermione about it, or vice versa?

Please explain to me how Hermione "messed" things up? Harry did that all by himself.


Flying PhoenixAnd why kiss him, too? If, by your own admission, Hermione knows that Ron likes her, will kissing him do any good AT ALL? It would be so much easier to hug him, that is all. If she knew Ron liked her, why would she kiss him to cause his reaction like he did? If it’s a distractionary ploy, I slam this assumption. This is manipulation of Ron’s feelings and utterly and outrightly cruel. I refuse to accept this analysis of Hermione’s character. Not even she would stoop so low.

So that leaves you to explain why she would kiss him, if by her own admission, she knew he had feelings for her?


I hope you don't mind if I butt in here for a moment. See, I think the kiss that Hermione gave Ron is going to come back and bite her.

Now, think about the context of the situation. Ron's very first match, he's extremely nervous, he knows that he's not that good. The Slytherin's are wearing badges to annoying Ron because they have done some recon, they know he buckles under pressure, they are going to play up the pressure. Harry is trying to think of a way to get Ron out of the Great Hall without seeing those badges to keep him cool to be able to play. Hermione, being the good friend, knows of his feelings and knows what can effectively distract him, so she kisses him on the cheek.

However, that's where the "And you Harry -" comes in. She may have kissed Harry on the cheek as well. It's implied, so we really can't write it off. If Hermione did kiss Harry on the cheek as well, then it would show to Ron that the kiss she gave him was only for good luck, which is what she stated.


Jedi Master Hawk: Didn't you know? Hermione knew Harry wasn't a bad kisser because they kissed in that broom closet in POA, we just didn't see it!

(That was a joke people...a joke...)


:rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol:

Sarmi

[Mad Eye Mike]

Gilyann - JKR could've done many things to foreshadow a r/hr pairing without actually making them a pair. At Christmas, Ron brought Hermione perfume right? Well when Harry met up with Hermione on Valentine's Day, it could've been written for Hermione to have already purchased Ron some of his favorite sweets from Honeydukes. It would've been a nice little Hr->R moment and nothing would have been set in stone.

There were a hundred things JKR could've done with r/hr on Valentinie's Day without cementing them as a couple, and yet, she didn't.


Sarmi - I have my doubts as to whether or not Hawk is really a Jedi. When was the last time you saw a Jedi Knight take cheap pop-shots at someone? True Jedi walk a higher path, Hawk is more like a Sith in disguise - if not a really cheap clone :p

When the MI6 division closed, we assimilated all their equipment so if it's just a lightsaber you want, a lightsaber you shall have. Remember Sarmi, the Auror's have an Unspeakable division. mhm, that's right, but it takes patience and loyalty to get there. :agree:

[Sarmi]

When the MI6 division closed, we assimilated all their equipment so if just a lightsaber you want, a lightsaber you shall have. Remember Sarmi, the Auror's have an Unspeakable division. mhm, that's right, but it takes patience and loyalty to get there. :agree:

Thanks for the lightsaber! :tu:

I just hope my hubby, Falcon, won't run into any problems getting those goods for you. ;) So, I'm sure that you could speed up that application for an Unspeakable, right????

Sarmi

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk

Nice point about the bible. :D

Seriously, I mean, just because that we don't know everything about something, doesn't mean that something didn't happen. I wasn't saying that to support R/Hr, I was trying to dispute (IMO), a "flawed" philosopy, "if there's no proof, it didn't happen".

Sirius83

just something simple like Hermione bringing Ron back some Hogsmeade sweets,

LMAO!!!! :lol: Just imagining the reaction of the Harmonians if I said that.

let's be honest here. If that happened and I was using that as R/Hr evidence, this would be ripped to shreds faster than you could say "friends only".

Mrs. Weasley called him, Ron, Ginny etc. etc. were there, but Harry just ignored them and they leaved him alone, maybe not to bother him, maybe because they didn't know how to deal with him at that moment

1) Mrs Weasley called him. When he didn't answer, she didn't come up and tackle it, face to face.

2) Ron did come up and wake Harry up. IMO, I think Ron was leaving Harry alone more out of respect, to allow Harry his own time. I think this applies to the others too.

but Hermione came and wasn't afraid of how he would react or anything,

Hermione wasn't there when Harry found out about "his so called possession". Hermione hasn't seen how messed up Harry is. Hermione is confident, and Ron/Ginny agree to help- it's about time that something was done. BTW, if Hermione liked Harry, wouldn't she be worried about how he would perceive her?

I said I was sure IN MY OPINION that this scene has no romantic connotations at all. I am not so sure about other H/Hr scenes, but *IMO*, this one is bordering on the *wild* speculation side. :p

Signing out,

Avada

[evaluna]

MEM: My sincere appreciation for approving my request. The upgrades to the Firebolt are incredible. Having testflown like a dream, I recommend it for all full-status aurors without reservation [i.e., hyperdrive kicks in at a thought; other-dimensional travel results in no cellular damage or residue in current dimension ...hey, it was worth the risk, what can I say?]. So, we're good to go.

Great posts to all fellow shippers and travellers!
*Harmony*, we've had some truly brilliant and beautiful posts. Same to our friends and travellers of unknown or varying destination...I've enjoyed your posts as well.

I do have some comments, but I've see Hawk and haycheng already bantering out here on the astral plane. Since we all have our respective *work* to do here, some of it karmic and other bits classified [MEM - report forthcoming], I go to shoulder my load, but I'll be back shortly!
Cheers!

[Narami]

Hermione wasn't there when Harry found out about "his so called possession". Hermione hasn't seen how messed up Harry is.
Exactly, if I was to face one of my friends that I care so much about, and I didn't knew how "messed up" they are, I would think it more than twice to go and face them, but
Hermione is confident, and Ron/Ginny agree to help- it's about time that something was done.
you said it yourself, and she was more worried about Harry than herself (and how much he could have yelled at her, fot example) and Ron and Ginny, kind of stteped up when she was there, she might as well convinced them both...or something...because yes, it was time someone reach for the poor boy. Sometimes we think being alone is better for us, but rarely that's true ;).
BTW, if Hermione liked Harry, wouldn't she be worried about how he would perceive her?
If she liked Harry and cared about him, like she sure does (and has proven) she will be far more concerned about his well being, than her, and what he might think about her for that moment and situation.

[Hawk 92]

Seriously, I mean, just because that we don't know everything about something, doesn't mean that something didn't happen. I wasn't saying that to support R/Hr, I was trying to dispute (IMO), a "flawed" philosopy, "if there's no proof, it didn't happen".

AK

the proof is what we use to prove a theory.

For example using your subconscience theory

Think that’s more than enough to justify the view that 12GP at Xmas HAD absolutely NO romantic connotations.

Harry is alone when all of the sudden Hermione shows up. Subconsciencely he has been in love with her. He's confused at the moment. What should he do? He hesitates. Should he now embrace what is only lurking under the surface. Harry is hungry but not just physically hungry. He has been without love for so long. The hunger is building.

Hermione is pink but not from the cold. She recoginzes his hunger. Deep inside she feels it too. She can't do anything about it yet but she can offer him a sandwich as a subtle hint. Harry accepts the offer to go eat. His feelings are confirmed.

See what I mean. Oh and you shouldn't use texual proof to disprove others theories if you want to say that it happens off stage and in ones subconscience.

This part is not addressed to AK.

Mad Eye Mike

Tsk tsk. Combining stories to build your division. :rasp: You seem to have needed to combine Star Wars and Harry Potter even though there is no texual proof of Aurors carring Lightsabers. Sorry Mike not on stage not in Play.

Cheers!

[Sirius83]

AK: Yes, we probably would have picked it apart. However, as the opposing side, aren't we supposed to find holes in arguments? Let's be honest here. As much as we debate our two sides,t he fact remains that JKR has put information on both sides that make both ships possible outcomes. There are however a severe lack of Hr -> R moments, and putting in a little something over the Valentines Hogsmeade visit would have gone a long way, don't you agree?

[Earendil]

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
Hermione wasn't there when Harry found out about "his so called possession". Hermione hasn't seen how messed up Harry is. Hermione is confident, and Ron/Ginny agree to help- it's about time that something was done.

To break this scene down objectively, here are the facts:

FACT: Harry was feeling shocked and depressed about potentially being possessed, and dealt with it by isolating the Weasleys and not responding to their attempts to draw him out of his shell.

FACT: Hermione came into the room Harry was hiding in, told him to come out so they could talk, and Harry listened. (Full stop. I am not stating the reason for why he listened, whether he was hungry, tired, persuaded by Hermione, or needed to go to the bathroom. All I'm saying is that Hermione asked him to come out of the room, and he did.)

FACT: Harry had no objections when confronted by Hermione, Ron, and Ginny. Once they started talking, he kept with it and they all managed to make him feel better.

Okay. Now whether Hermione knew about what Harry was going through or not, the simple facts as laid out indicate that Harry needed to talk about what was on his mind, and Hermione instigated the discussion.

I'm not saying this is a shipping point. I'm saying that for those who wish to claim that Hermione is *never* able to reach Harry in any possible way, the bare bones of the text clearly indicate beyond argument that Harry needed to get from point A to point B, and Hermione began the process by drawing him out of the room. It can be argued why she did this, how she did this, why Harry listened, who made Harry feel better, whatever. The point is that by looking at the text without arguing the witherto's and the whyfor's, the simple fact is that it was Hermione who did indeed draw Harry out of Buckbeak's room. Not Ron, not Ginny, not the sandwiches. And yes, I do know that Harry was purposely alienating the Weasleys because of what happened at St. Mungo's, BUT: if the author wants to show something to make a point, she will facilitate it by altering the circumstances.

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
BTW, if Hermione liked Harry, wouldn't she be worried about how he would perceive her?

How would he perceive her? I'm lost here. :scared:

GilyAnn, the (rhetorical) question regarding Harry realizing Hermione's loyalty in the Out of the Fire scene that I made in my earlier post went something like this:
If Harry realizes anything at any point, can we realistically assume that (prior to the moment of realization in the text), he believed the opposite of what he just realized?

The answer to that is, of course, no. Not always. If that were the case, he would have believed that Dumbledore was powerless and weak before GoF, which was the point when he first realized just how absolutely poweful Dumbledore really is. I listed other examples in my previous post on pg. 68, I think it was. My point being that canon does not tell us that Harry was ever thinking, prior to OotP, that Hermione was disloyal to him, because A) the text never implies or directly states this, and B) canon shows that any realization Harry makes does not automatically imply that he believed the opposite before he had that realization.

Nice posts today, especially evaluna, FP, sone and Mad-I-Moody.

[Turambar]

Posted by AK:
Two words. Quidditch. Practice.
xxxxxx
Quite right. But I was talking about what the author was trying to achieve with the whole Valentine's Day sequence. Not the narrative. Quidditch was just the excuse she used to get Ron out of the way.
Her intentions were twofold:
1) She wanted to push the Harry/Cho relationship to its highest peak - a date - and then have it crash down the side of the hill, with Hermione very much involved.
2) She wanted to set the Quibbler article in train.
What she doesn't do is use the occasion for any R/Hr or H/G development.

Thanks Nia.

EDIT: Earendil your pics have gone from bad to worse. :scared:

[Hawk 92]

OK

I'm really wondering about this Auror division with their avatars and sigs.

Is that part of the division?

:nc: And truly disturbing?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Oh BTW Mike

While your making promises and giving out goods (where did Mike get the funds for a firebolt BTW) the Jedi will be out fighting to defend HMS Harmony. Mike the unltimate politician. Can we say Palpatine. ;)

Cheers!

[GilyAnn]

We know that on Christmas day the trio exchanges gift. Everyone does. But do they exchanges gifts or do anything for Valentines. NO right? Putting Hermione to bring candy or whatever to Ron on Valentines day. It is a huge step that will simply acelerate the plot ages! We are still on book 5! First R/Hr would simply have to already be more than friends and they are friends still. They like each other as more than friends but that's another story. :whistle:

Gily Ann

[sone]

yes, sone, Cho is a good example of what Harry's next crush should NOT be - overly emotional and a little crazy. her Quidditch abilities are the only things she has in common with Harry. Ginny is everything Cho is not - strong, willful, not creepily emotional, (and, I believe, one could argue this for Hermione as well) -- but she is good at Quidditch. That's all she has in common with Cho.

Well I do not think Cho was being creepily emotional. FP's post about how Cho's side of the story was very plausible and true. Harry didn't even explain why he had to meet Hermione (not that he could since Hermione never bothered to give Harry that information). Honestly, what is Cho supposed to think? "She asked me to, so I thought I would". Hermione rarely spends a day out of Harry's sight and vice versa and he is going to meet her in the middle of their date which took weeks for Harry to come around to asking Cho in the first place.

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk

Harry is alone when all of the sudden Hermione shows up. Subconsciencely he has been in love with her. He's confused at the moment. What should he do? He hesitates. Should he now embrace what is only lurking under the surface. Harry is hungry but not just physically hungry. He has been without love for so long. The hunger is building.

Hermione is pink but not from the cold. She recoginzes his hunger. Deep inside she feels it too. She can't do anything about it yet but she can offer him a sandwich as a subtle hint. Harry accepts the offer to go eat. His feelings are confirmed.

:rotfl: Is that the best you can do? I must admit, that's one of the "funniest" parodies I've ever seen recently.

However, YOUR "PARODY" is based ON ONE SCENE. My theory spans YEARS, along those YEARS, I have pointed out many, many scenes, canon, sensible and not far fetched interpretations and explained how they fit in, with my theory.

May I point out that despite all of your valiant "rebuttals" none have held, and none have even made me change my theory in the slightest bit. Keep that in mind.

And now, to furtherly attack my theory, you are "parodizing" it. You're more than welcome. :D

The following is not addressed to Hawk.

To anyone else

I despise Barry Trotter, because it's so cheap and thoughtless. I'm sure that if the author disliked JKR's works of art, he/she should criticise it with arguments, and not parodize her work. If they can't find some arguments that stand, he/she should keep their parodies to themselves.

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT: Sirius83's post

There are however a severe lack of Hr -> R moments, and putting in a little something over the Valentines Hogsmeade visit would have gone a long way, don't you agree?

Agreed, that there is little of Hermione to Ron outrightly romantically. However, if bringing back sweets can be perceived as romantic, even though it is on Valentines day, by your own admission, shouldn't all the WARM Hermione to Ron moments in OOTP be valid, even though they may appear to be friendly (despite the interesting adjectives given).

EDIT2:Earendil

How would he perceive her? I'm lost here.

:p The point was that if Hermione did have feelings for Harry at that point, and Narami said, she doesn't care what he might think of her and goes ahead anyway, (something like that) that wouldn't make sense. I thought that perhaps if she interfered, and there was a possibility of Harry would perceiving her with some less than "nice" adjectives, one of them being "shrill" and another being "bossy", Hermione wouldn't be too keen on this.

BTW, I'm intrigued about your comments. "facilating the circumstances"- could I possibly have your take on how the whole scene is a H/Hr moment? I promise I won't hurt it too much. :p

[Bloodpop]

Hawk





Agreed, that there is little of Hermione to Ron outrightly romantically. However, if bringing back sweets can be perceived as romantic, even though it is on Valentines day, by your own admission, shouldn't all the WARM Hermione to Ron moments in OOTP be valid, even though they may appear to be friendly (despite the interesting adjectives given).

Hey Avada.
Didn't someone bring some sweets to someone else , in a library or something, and weren't they even sharing those sweets in a quite moment when someone was having some problems?Shouldnt that be considered romantic, and a kind of gesture for JK to throw in to forward a romantic pairing. OR maybe its just me. lol.

PS, You know what they say about chocolate!

[Sirius83]

I don't deny JKR could be slipping in clues with Hermione's softening towards Ron. Since the thread first began way back before OOTP was even out, i've always said that R/Hr is a possibility and i have not changed that stance. I just believe H/Hr is more likely.

As for bringing back sweets for Ron, Ron and Hermione did it for Harry in POA. Having Hermione do the same for Ron would have been a friendly gesture, but it being Valentines day would have created a certain imagery. That's what i'm saying.

[AvadaKedavra]

Sirius83

Since the thread first began way back before OOTP was even out

All power to the old timer. Respect where it's due. :p

i've always said that R/Hr is a possibility and i have not changed that stance. I just believe H/Hr is more likely.

Since I joined the thread (a short time before OOTP came out- it was closed before I could get into my stride and gain my footing. :sad:) I have never denied H/Hr's possibility and the latest example of that is a few pages ago, I haven't changed my stance. I just think R/Hr is more likely. :lol:

but it being Valentines day would have created a certain imagery. That's what i'm saying.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, with the H/C thing obviously being well thought-out, the Skeeter thing, Luna, and everything, such a "friendly gesture" which was really a hint would have easily been lost by many fans. (I would, of course have picked up on that though. :p)

Perhaps, JKR, in this book, decided to focus on Harry's romance and give the R/Hr moments their own "isolation". :D

And that's how I will slip away from this. :whistle:

[Nia]

Gily Ann wrote:It makes perfect sense! First Hermione is the one who clearly says that girls usually don't ask questions like that. Second a valentines date would acelerate the plot ages. Is one thing to go with Ron as a friend to Hogsmade and another one to go with Ron to hogsmade on San Valentines day. Is one thing for Ron to ask who's Hermione writting in the common room any day and another one that out of the blue he asked on Valentines day if Victor wrote a letter. If Rowling want pairings in the fullness of time it is still is too early to have such a strong scene on book 5. The same goes with the Yule Ball. A pattern was trying to form but it couldn't yet get there. But the foreshadowing of the couples is there.
So I haven't been contradicting myself. It's one thing to foreshadow and another one to have a strong scene like that on book5. JKR hasn't missed a golden oportunity she is saving it for the RIGHT time.

I think you misstook the original meaning of the statement. We are looking at this question from different perspectives. ;) You were thinking of Hermione asking Ron what was he doing on Valentine's Day as a lead in to a date. I, on the other hand was thinking of her asking him in a friendly way, in passing, as a means of gathering information and as a way by which JKR could show us the readers that Hermione was interested in him. I agree it is too early in the books for final ship dates, but I still believe that JKR missed several marvelous opportunities to show us R/Hr forshadowing if that ship is indeed going to sail.
Cheers,
Nia

[GryffindorGal]

I mean to assume that JK put Buckbeak, there for the reason to foreshadow Harry and Harmione's love, is taking a pretty big leap. Sure she hides clues in her writing, but considering that she's writing for children i doubt the clues would be buried that deep in the text.
++++++++++++

JKR has said constantly that she's not writing these books for children, she's writing them for herself.

[Hawk 92]

However, YOUR "PARODY" is based ON ONE SCENE. My theory spans YEARS, along those YEARS, I have pointed out many, many scenes, canon, sensible and not far fetched interpretations and explained how they fit in, with my theory.

May I point out that despite all of your valiant "rebuttals" none have held, and none have even made me change my theory in the slightest bit. Keep that in mind.

And now, to furtherly attack my theory, you are "parodizing" it. You're more than welcome.

I have no need to make a parody of the years. Because no parodies are needed for HMS Harmony.

Since the beginning of this post other H/Hr shippers have already shown H/Hr based on the text. Texual proof.

I have no intention of changing your mind. I think that most of us are pretty set on our ships and only JKR will change anyones mind. I will however point out that this is one of the most viewed threads on this forum and a lot of people visit here but do not post. They are merely curious as to what we are saying and the clues we are examining. My offering rebuttal has nothing to do with changing your mind, it is for the others who lurk here but don't want to get into the arguements.

So what I'm pointing out to them is that your theroy creates clues that do not stand a seperate examination. In short your theory creates clues. One example is the christmas gifts. If not viewed from your theory then it does not support your ship.

By your theory you create facts.
By the facts I create theories.

But this is professional as I pointed out and is offered for those who are reading this thread ( all those unnamed guests on the map) this is not an attack merely pointing out my rebuttal to your theory.

You are not going to change your mind. I'm not going to change mine. We are professionals. While this doesn't forbid joking, lets remember that disputing theories are not attacks on the people that write them.

Cheers!

BTW AK I'm not saying that you attacked me. Just reminding everyone that we are all professionals and need to keep it that way. AK I disagree with your theory. And Earendil is it standard operating procedure to post a picture of Mad Eye Mike in your avatar? :p :rotfl:
LOL Mike
:rotfl:

[sone]

I'm sorry....going a little backwards here.

Harry (a) doesn't have time to even think about ignoring Hermione -- element of surprise there -- because she catches him completely off his guard and (b) isn't avoiding Hermione, because he doesn't know that she knows what the Weasleys overheard at St. Mungo's.


Whatever the reason, Hermione did not force the door open, he opened it for her. There is a slight shock but not lack of choice. Even afterwards, he did not have to follow her out of that room but he did. I am going to say again for the third time, I do not see what the big deal is about when or who she talked to first. All I can figure that it was quick because the snow still had not melted from her hair and her cheeks were still pink. I was just interested in just how quickly she got him out of that room. Whatever the reason, he chose to let her in and to follow her out.


Besides, let us say that it was Hermione and only Hermione would could have reached Harry (even though I don't see how this one little paragraph signifies her "reaching" him).


I'm not saying that Hermione was the only one that could of reached Harry, I am saying she is the only who did. I do not need the rest of the conversation to support that. That is how I can signify that she reached him. That and many other examples throughout the book. One of the reasons why I see Harry and Hermione because yes she can get Harry out of that room. More importantly, the author chose to write Hermione as the one to do it. Reaching Harry is going to be important in being his girlfriend because he is much like an ocean. You won't see much on the surface, you are going to have dive in to see what is really going on. It's really not in Harry's nature to open up.

Harry is stiff, glaring, angry, he snaps at Hermione, he growls at her....and she gets rather sharp with him, too. OK, tough love you say? Well, what about Ginny in this scene, when she is "quite unabashed" to look at Harry in the eye and say "You won't look at any of us!" How is that not comparable to Hermione's forcefulness?

Harry reacted that way to just about everybody. Hermione not being the exception is no surprise considering she would not budge from what she knew was right. The situation being that Hermione still continued to reach him anyway and did it more often than anyone else.

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk

So we're advertising H/Hr now, are we? I personally don't give a flying flobberworm about improving my ship in the eyes of other people, all I care about is debating. This is what the forums are for. To debate. I debate with everyone in this forum in mind, and not people visiting.

If not viewed from your theory then it does not support your ship.

The Christmas Gifts? Ok. You're on. I want all H/Hr shippers to be utterly and completely honest when they answer. Forget about shipping. Forget about anything. All I ask is,

Does perfume have romantic connotations?

and, thinking along those lines,

If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

All I ask for is answers to those questions. Yes or No would suffice nicely, and an concise explaination would do.

Hawk You may disagree with my theory, but IMO you have not been able to offer any significant rebuttals. You haven't pointed out any contradictions and I've corrected you on quite a few points. So saying my theory doesn't stand when you have offered no significant inner-contradictory argument, and nothing else to contradict me, except that saying "it's all up to interpretation", is not strong enough. I will accept the "agree to disagree" though. You disagree with my theory. I agree with this.

Once again, I'm going to correct you. I said attack my theory, not people. I am being quite professional here, and IMO, I think I am being too professional. I have offered many, many times to be more casual and more friendly, but you like professionalism. Good for you. :tu:

Here's to professionalism, professional, formal, and disciplined debating between myself and Hawk on his insistence.

One last thing. I think it's enough of my theory, my theory. Can I please have my turn in arguing your theories, in the name of professionalism, (and in your opinion, defending the credibility of H/Hr in the name of all those nameless, faceless people out there watching.)


Signing out,

Avada

[Mad Eye Mike]

However, YOUR "PARODY" is based ON ONE SCENE. My theory spans YEARS, along those YEARS, I have pointed out many, many scenes, canon, sensible and not far fetched interpretations and explained how they fit in, with my theory.

May I point out that despite all of your valiant "rebuttals" none have held, and none have even made me change my theory in the slightest bit. Keep that in mind.


AK - Your theory was mostly speculation and that does not allow much in the way of disagreement. That's one of the reasons no rebuttle is going to 'hold' against it because it's your personal interpretation of events as opposed to actual text evidence.

As for your question:
If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

If I didn't feel the same way about them - no. I would blow the gift off just like Hermione did.


Hawk - I learned how to combine stories from you. If I remember correctly, MI6 (Mission Impossible), James Bond ('00') and Star Wars are separate franchises and properties as well but you combined them just fine. ;)

[Sirius83]

I'll answer them AK.

Does perfume have romantic connotations?

Yes. Not always, but often yes.

If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

No. However, GOF brought Ron's feelings to the surface. If Hermione returns those feelings, she has certainly passed up a lot of opportunities to give Ron a hint and in the process tip us the reader off to the fact that she returns the feelings.

[sone]

If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

I wouldn't call it really unusual.

[Bloodpop]

Avada: Here, Here, Good show, and all that other british stuff.

Mady eye: Because it was based on speculation it doesn't leave room for disagreement?
I read AK's theroy, and it was a concise description of events in canon where he theorized on possible reasons for such actions and future ramifacations. Which is what debating is all about. Its easy to avoid it, but why not bust out your own copies of the books and give a rebuttle?