Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

[Hawk 92]

Hawk - I learned how to combine stories from you. If I remember correctly, MI6 (Mission Impossible), James Bond ('00') and Star Wars are separate franchises and properties as well but you combined them just fine

Close there Mike. MI6 is James Bond. But touche none the less. :lol:

AK

Does perfume have romantic connotations?

No. I've known sons to get it for mothers, brothers for sisters, friends for friends, and boyfriends for girlfriends but it doesn't immediately have a romantic connotation.

If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

Since Hermione has had a year since the Yule Ball and another 6 months after this perfume what is the hold up?

Once again, I'm going to correct you. I said attack my theory, not people. I am being quite professional here, and IMO, I think I am being too professional. I have offered many, many times to be more casual and more friendly, but you like professionalism. Good for you.

I made it clear that I was not saying that solely to you nor did I say that you attacked me in any way shape or form. I was establishing why we are continuing to debate this.

One last thing. I think it's enough of my theory, my theory. Can I please have my turn in arguing your theories, in the name of professionalism, (and in your opinion, defending the credibility of H/Hr in the name of all those nameless, faceless people out there watching.)

1) When you keep bringing your theory up be prepared to have it rebutted.

And of course,

Alot of people pointed to the Christmas gifts as being a sing of shipping so in my usual fashion I went to the book to see what had happened,

Page 503 US version,

"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron."

Emphasis JKR.

Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts

Now a slightly deeper look,

I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.

The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.

And now for what's truly interesting. The grammer. Hmm the grammer, that sounds wierd even to me. :)

*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*

Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.

exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark

And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion

So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.

Cheers!

[Grace Granger]

Warning this may contain SHIP:

Does perfume have romantic connotations?
Well if I were Hermione and I got the "point" back in GoF which we all assume is that he likes Hermione, I would take it as a romantic connotation.


If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

If I like my friend, I wouldn't make a move, but drop hints. And that doesn't qualify as a move because you are just trying to clue him in that you're interested so that HE can make the move, not you.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Hawk, what are you trying to say about my luscious avatar?!

[haycheng]

Perfume: Sure, it is some kind of sign of romantic, but I have consider them for mon, sis, grand. As to give it to girl that I know for six or more year. Well, it really depend on the relationship. If I give this gift to someone I consider a sister, I do not see the problem of it. Although I must admit they are very different in age group(+5), i consider they are my elder sister figures.

to AK mind tell me where is your long theory again? I do not read it carefully the first time(Have not get my chance to bit it apart). thank you.

If th girl does not take the hint of perfume, I probably will drop another. If she choose to ignore, I believe it is a clear sign that she is not interested.

[Hawk 92]

EDIT: Hawk, what are you trying to say about my luscious avatar?!

I could be wrong there Grace, but isn't that your sig???

Cheers!

[Narami]

Does perfume have romantic connotations?
I hope not always, since, my Dad has given me perfume, while my boyfriend has given me books! LOL. A thoughful gift, is much more romantic, a perfume is a girly gift, you have to buy a gift for a girl and even if don't know her you buy a perfume and you're ready to go.
Hawk92:Page 503 US version,
"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron."
Emphasis JKR.
Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts
Now a slightly deeper look,
I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.
The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.
And now for what's truly interesting. The grammer. Hmm the grammer, that sounds wierd even to me.
*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*
Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.
exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark
And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion
So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.
If I was to agree more, I'll just copy that all over!! That's exactly what I wanted to say.:clap:

[sone]

You know Hawk, your post about the Christmas gifts just brought up a weird thought in my head. JKR supposedly said that Harry will end with someone who has been there since "the beginning" Well in the last chapter of GOF called "the beginning" Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek. Hmmm....ain't that something?

[Mad Eye Mike]

Mady eye: Because it was based on speculation it doesn't leave room for disagreement?
I read AK's theroy, and it was a concise description of events in canon where he theorized on possible reasons for such actions and future ramifacations. Which is what debating is all about. Its easy to avoid it, but why not bust out your own copies of the books and give a rebuttle?


Speculation based on canon/text evidence and logical progression of the characters motivations is debatable. Speculation not based on text evidence and/or follows an illogical path of character motivation is not debatable.

[_BT_]

longish reply to last 4-5 pages; wish i could get online when most of this heated debate happens so i wouldn't have to post like this... but anywho

aurelius:1. GoF: If Ron supposedly "likes" Hermione, then she should have been his number one choice for the Yule Ball right from the start (like the way Cho was Harry’s first choice)...if he liked her, then why waste so much time asking the other girls when to begin with - should have just asked Hermione straight away...which then goes back to my post earlier on how Ron only sees Hermione as "one of the boys"...and if you read carefully, Ron doesn't really ask Hermione out officially as his date, it states...

why _did_ he waste so much time asking? of course, the standard r/hr response would be that he might be too embarrassed to unleash his feelings in the open. my interpretation is different and is more similar to yours: he just saw hermione as a friend or "one of the boys," and then realized he didn't have a date and asked hermione so he'd have a girl to go with.

cloud_9_83: I think Luna likes Ron. I think Ron likes Hermione. I think Hermione likes Harry. I think that Harry needs someone like Hermione in his life since he's lost so many important people to him and i think that Harry does like Hermione...however i think if anything happens between Harry adn Hermione Ron will become very jealous. I wish there was someone for Neville...i would say luna but i don't really think she's interested and you can hardly make a relationship up because they are the last two people so hey why not pair them up!!

i also think luna likes ron. i don't think ron likes anyone at the present time, but a relationship between luna/ron is possible for development. as for neville... well there's always ginny... :agree:

aurelius: I've never really thought about that Hermione is only in the group because Harry wants her to be...but now that I think about it, it's actually a good point...I mean since they started, Ron wasn't exactly fond of Hermione and Harry most of the time was playing mediator between the two...I mean it states in majority of the books, that Harry would often sit between Ron and Hermione and try to get the both of them to talk to each other...

that's true. ron/hermione had shaky beginnings, and i think if it wasn't for harry.. the two would never become friends. as it is, the two don't share a relationship that comes close to the current h/hr one.

GilyAnn: Look I'll just post what I post before: ::sights:: Still not getting my point. Let's take Ginny out of this argument. Ginny doesn't exist in the HP series. Let's take the hottest ship at the moment (yes boys and girls if you haven't joined it you are late) HARRY AND LUNA. Having screen time it doesn't guaranteed being the female lead. Let me explained. Right now Harry is a hero stand alone. Ron and Hermione are his sidekicks. Harry stands alone right now. His future herooine, love interest or female lead has not come into playing yet. She hasn't appear. Right now JKR COULD decide to pair up Harry with Luna and have her become the female lead, love interest or herooine or whatever you want to call it. And that would be Ok and it would be understandable and itwould be allowed. Do I like it? HELL NO! But that is out of my hands. Having screan time it doesn't mean that it will guaranteed that Hermione would be the Love Interest. This is a very Old techinique that jkr decided to resusitate. AGAIN, Do I like it? Do I have a choice? The herooine of a Hero don't have to be the in your face kind of thing. With constant screaning time

i'll reiterate my original opinion: I see what you're saying in that Hermione is a 'sidekick' of Harry. But regardless if she's a sidekick or not... it doesn't matter. hermione, in having the largest female part (heck the only real big female part at all)... leaves her to be the main female character, i.e. the lead. It does not matter if Harry is alone, or if harry doesn't end up with hermione. the fact that hermione is the main female character makes her the lead. i think i know where the confusion is coming from. i think we're defining female lead differently. i mean it only to be the main female character in the series, which at this point is hermione.

Saint Smythe: Viktor Krum will join the Order of the Phoenix, not just to get close to Hermoine... but it will put the two of them in close proximity for a while. Then Hermoine will get to watch him die, and the shock will drive her into Ron's arms. She won't get together with Harry because Harry's going to die at the end of Book 7, and JKR wouldn't let two of her heroine's leading men croak so soon after each other.

ok first off, i think it's possible that krum gets in the order. interesting idea. if it does happen.. it will put the two in close proximity, but i don't think anything will develop (due to the way hermione has kinda brushed off krum in the past).. krum dying... possible...next, you bring no evidence or analytics to prove why this would shove hermione into ron's arms. next, even if harry does in book 7 (i don't believe he will).. this doesn't mean h/hr can't still get together.

Bexfizz: Now i would seriously love H/Hr to get together and i think really in their own little way everyone does. but to me and esspecially after reading OoTP it doesn't look like its going to happen, which is why i ship the most realistic one R/Hr. im sorry but thats the way it looks that JK's going with this and as much as it pains me to say this no matter how much H/Hr evidence that is brought up, i just can't see it. And coming from someone who would very much like to see it, i think really proves that its not there.

why doesn't it look like it'll happen? why do you say JK's going with that? specific evidence? also your last sentence doesn't prove it's (h/hr) not there... it proves you have an opinion on the matter.

Mad Eye Mike: The Matrix is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's not Carrie Ann Moss's fault the Wachowski Brothers decided to have only one female of true relevance in the films. But that doesn't mean Trinity is any less of a lead character. Since the Matrix is basically Neo's story (just like HP is Harry's), whichever girl is most in his life (the story) is the lead girl. In Neo's case it's Trinity. In the first Matrix, was Trinity a sidekick for Neo? Yes; and since she was the only female, she was the lead by default. But that didn't make her any less of a lead because in Matrix Reloaded there were more females and Trinity still recieved the most screentime.

word.... well said

GilyAnn: I think that Ginny did showed some signs of still having some feelings.

so did i, but the question for me remains whether harry is showing anything. as this point i believe no, but something in the future _could_ develop.

snitch14: the biggest disaster is if ron walks in on h/hr kissing. he is very close to both of them, it would feel awkward.. and since he likes hermione...

it would be an awkward moment. evidence he likes hermione?

Daveydee:...or the Non-Hug, which seems rather more significant in the light of events in GoF.

how so? the non-hug could just as well be because the two didn't share as close of relationship as hr/h.

Daveydee: Regarding the kiss in OOTP (correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't this before a Quiddich match), I think it was more of a good luck kiss than anything else...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quite possibly - but it sends certain signals, do you not think?

lol, you credit the ron kiss as giving 'signals,' but discredit the hr/h kiss as romantic. the two kisses are written in the same fashion in the books. so explain why is the ron one giving signals.

Hawk 92: Now whats interesting is that even after Ron "notices" Hermione he still treats her like a last resort. He assumes that 2 girls don't have dates, 1 is Ginny and the other is Hermione. Now Ron is not going to go to the Ball with his sister so he suggests Hermione by default. Once again Ron treats Hermione as a last restort and not as a choice. Hermione is Ron's default and not his choice.

agreed.

SeniorFishy: I think book SIX is going to be another book without much going for relationships. I don't he wants to deal with another Cho episode. I think that Harry will become quite quiet and introverted again. I think we'll see more of him trying to hide his feelings and himself from everyone. I believe that book SIX won't have much romances involving Harry. I think that Hermione will continue to act in a purely friendly way to Harry. I don't think Ron and Hermione will happen. You'd think that if there was all this tension since CoS that something would have happened by now, no OotP totally was the part which sank any hope for Ron and Hermione in my opinion.

agreed. first off, the romance in HP is a sub-plot to begin with. secondly, i agree that Ootp also just finished off r/hr.

haycheng: Ron's gift is easy to read, he is interested in Hermione. (some may also argue Perfume is ok for friend, sister or mother. It is a possibility. But crush seem to be the more general assumption) harry's book is interesting in my opinion. It is not just any book, it is Hermione's favor subject. It shows that he know Hermione well enough.

not necessarily easy to read. perfume as a friendly gift is a very reasonable assumption. the gift that harry gave has many implications.

haycheng:: Well. I always believe Harry require someone really strong to be his lover. This guy has some serious problem, he need someoen to hit his head to see the light.

lol, what? harry has serious problems? like what? if you're talking about the angry moments in ootp... they're normal. remember he's a teenager, frankly i'd be more worried if he didn't have a little angst here and there. it's not like he's this wild beast that needs to be restrained or he needs this person to constantly bring him 'into the light' because he's clueless in everything.

Bloodpop: Ive reposted this because I didnt get as much feedback as I would like.

i replied in full on page 68 i think..

humongoratdropping: Does it really matter that Harry didn't witness that?? I feel Harry will definitely remember that in the future, the crappy and dismantled Gryffindor Quidditch team saved by Ginny's catch.

ok, he'll remember. respect will probably grow. i don't interpret it as feelings developing though.

FlyingPhoenix: The point is not that only Hermione can get him out of the room its much more the fact it is Hermione who do that. I mean JKR had planty possibles to put this scene. She didn't need Hermione for that. What about Sirius? or Remus? All possibles but she chose Hermione the very last which I did expect to turn up.

good point, agreed.

Turambar: I don't think Valentine's Day is great for R/Hr:
1) Ron gives no thought to it on the day for thinking about romance, he doesn't go to Hogsmeade with Hermione when Harry is conveniently preoccupied with Cho. 2) Hermione, who remember once gave Lockhart a Valentine's day card, shows no interest in spending time with Ron on Valentine's Day and instead asks Harry to meet her even though harry is going on his VERY FIRST DATE. 3) Harry meets Cho and then Hermione on Valentine's Day, the day of romance, exactly the same sequence as in his dream where Cho turns into hermione.

agree, agree, and agree. i always thought the scene was related to the dream as well. although the dream is up to interpretation... it's the only part in all 5 books where we actually see some 'subconcious' feelings that's everyone talking about... and it looks to point to hermione

Fairydust: 3. It's not Harry's fault that he had to meet Hermione on Valentine's day. I'm sure that any other day would have been good. It just so happened that the Hogsmeade trip was on February 14. And the only reason he met up with Hermione is because she made him promise to meet her. She told him it was really important. Harry would not stand up a friend and had to go.

yeah but the point is, by having it on valentine's day, there's possible symbolism. also look to the point that the scene mirrors the dream sequence.

Elric: All of the work Hermione did was purely out of a desire to help Harry, nothing in it for her, at least directly, and she has to deal with Rita Skeeter someone she can't abide, and all on Valentines day as well. Surely going above and beyond the call of duty on Hermione's part.

nicely put.

voldemort rules: VOLDEMORT RULES!!!!! long live LORD VLODEMORT

word.. best post i've seen all day :clap:

Fairydust: can i change the topic just for a bit. i want to know if anyone thinks that Snape will fall in love or whatnot. i for one would like to see snape with a love interest. anyone else want to see this also happen?

excellent, finally a new topic. ok my opinions on snape are= yes, snape deserves and i would like to see a love interest. but, unfortunately, i don't see one coming in. however, i do believe snape has had some past loves, most specifically, lily.

Sarmi: Correct about the Quidditch Practice, but why? Why didn't JKR show Ron asking Hermione about it, or vice versa? Please explain to me how Hermione "messed" things up? Harry did that all by himself.

good point

Mad Eye Mike: JKR could've done many things to foreshadow a r/hr pairing without actually making them a pair. At Christmas, Ron brought Hermione perfume right? Well when Harry met up with Hermione on Valentine's Day, it could've been written for Hermione to have already purchased Ron some of his favorite sweets from Honeydukes. It would've been a nice little Hr->R moment and nothing would have been set in stone. There were a hundred things JKR could've done with r/hr on Valentinie's Day without cementing them as a couple, and yet, she didn't.

exactly. no feelings, people.

Sirius83: I don't deny JKR could be slipping in clues with Hermione's softening towards Ron. Since the thread first began way back before OOTP was even out, i've always said that R/Hr is a possibility and i have not changed that stance. I just believe H/Hr is more likely.

i'm right with ya. back in my first post here (like page 50) i said there were still good odds of an r/hr relationship. i'm not so blind as to be missing what certainly seem like r/hr clues at first glance. i do see potential for the relationship, and a strong possibility, even if don't sound that way from my critical takes on most r/hr shippers' interpretations. i believe up to this point however, the clues/hints seem to point more in an h/hr direction. that and i'd rather see that one happen... although i guess r/hr would be allright too...don't get me wrong, ron's a cool guy. but i think at this point, h/hr is the strongest possiblity.

Nia: I agree it is too early in the books for final ship dates, but I still believe that JKR missed several marvelous opportunities to show us R/Hr forshadowing if that ship is indeed going to sail.

exactly. no pairings are set in stone as of now, but it certainly seems that the way jkr is writing currently; it points towards an h/hr direction. if she was that keen on r/hr, i think she'd gear the relationships towards that direction... but so far (imo) she hasn't been

AvadaKedavra: Does perfume have romantic connotations?

you said a straight yes/no answer, but it's not quite that easy. i know i've given perfume as a gift many a time, all with no romantic connotations. it all depends on the situation at hand. what i'm saying is it's not that easy to say that perfume always has romantic/friendly connotations. depends

AvadaKedavra: If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

lol, i see where you're going with these 2 questions. if a platonic friend gave me the perfume gift, i'd see it as a friendly gesture.

Hawk 92: Since Hermione has had a year since the Yule Ball and another 6 months after this perfume what is the hold up?

exactly. this is why in my first reply to ak's 5-point, i stated how i don't believe hermione is looking for 'confirmation,' because she would've seeked it by herself out by now...

all for now, BT :tu:

[Grace Granger]

I could be wrong there Grace, but isn't that your sig???

Cheers!

Hawk, don't make fun of me! Work with me, I'm sleepy here! You know what I mean anyhow, so answer the question or I'll go bird hunting!

Cheers! :evil:

[Narami]

You know Hawk, your post about the Christmas gifts just brought up a weird thought in my head. JKR supposedly said that Harry will end with someone who has been there since "the beginning" Well in the last chapter of GOF called "the beginning" Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek. Hmmm....ain't that something?

OH :huh:
MY! :wow:
it sounds like something...:)it does... maybe... :whistle:

[Turambar]

Does perfume have romantic connotations?
xxxxx
It really depends on the person and the situation. It wouldn't if you gave perfume to your grandmother, for instance. But obviously it can do.


If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?
xxxxx
This would depend on how you felt about the friend. If you wanted to encourage the friend you would react warmly to the present and find ways to drop hints to him yourself.
But in Hermione's situation she is also aware that the person giving her the gift has feelings for her. So, because she doesn't want to encourage him, she uses the least enthusiastic, encouraging word she could think of without being actually negative: "unusual".

[haycheng]

Hay's spirit fly back to Bay Area. He goes to the navy base and ask for a F-14E. Call Grace Granger,"I am ready for bird hunt!!"

Harry's problem
I am talk about he makes irrational decision sometime. He do require someone to help him to see the truth. He is blinded by his heart. Heart is good but you do need a brain to go with it.

[lanifiel]

I've closed the thread, we are over the 2,000 post limit. Starting up a new one.