Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

[evaluna]

Mar Dhea, absolutely fab post on the pros but even greater cons of an H/G arrangement. Goes along with my last few posts wonderfully & I agree 100% with your analysis.

Ecthelion, Earendil et al, great posts!
Cheers!

[Earendil]

Here's the second part of my response to Mutant's post responding to my post on the previous page. This will be another lengthy one, be warned.

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
If you're talking about Hermione's doubts in chapter eighteen, I don't see where Harry is having doubts.

Where Harry is having doubts about Sirius being as reckless as Hermione paints him?

"The Woes of Mrs. Weasley", pg. 159 (US Edition)
"He just didn't want to get his own hopes up even more," said Hermione wisely. "And he probably felt a bit guilty himself, because I think a part of him was really hoping you'd be expelled. Then you'd both be outcasts together."
"Come off it!" said Harry and Ron together, but Hermione merely shrugged.
"Suit yourselves. But I sometimes think Ron's mum's right, and Sirius gets confused about whether you're you or your father, Harry."
"So you think he's touched in the head?" said Harry heatedly.

With absolutely zero practical result. I've already said that Hermione is successful at making Harry feel guilty. The problem is he doesn't follow up.

No, he doesn't follow up. But he realizes, too late, that she was completely right about keeping up with Occlumency. He acknowledges this in DD's office toward the end. Even before that, he feels guilty about not working harder at it and leaving his mind open. It's his own problem for not taking her advice, but at least she managed to get through even when it was too late. The point is still that he understood that she was right all along.

Actually, "coax" is probably a strong word. She just showed up when Harry was expecting her to be on a skiing vacation and he came out of the room to see what she was doing there.

She told him to come to the other room, and he listened.

And all her commentary was doing was making him steadily angrier. It was Ginny who got him to calm down, apologize and broke through his depression to make him realize his experience wasn't at all like hers. All Hermione did after that was remind him he couldn't Apparate.

Harry was described as feeling "more and more nettled" after Ginny herself said that they all wanted to talk to him all along. Here's the passage:

"How're you feeling?"asked Hermione.
"Fine," said Harry stiffly.
"Oh, don't lie, Harry," said Hermione impatiently. "Ron and Ginny say you've been hiding from everyone since you got back from St. Mungo's."
'They do, do they?" said Harry, glaring at Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
"Well, you have!" she said. "And you won't look at any of us!"
"It's you lot who won't look at me!" said Harry angrily.
"Maybe you're taking it in turns to look and keep missing each other," suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.
"Very funny,"snapped Harry, turning away.
"Oh, stop feeling all misunderstood," said Hermione sharply. "Look, the others have told me what you overheard last night on the Extendable Ears--"
"Yeah?" growled Harry, his hands deep in his pockets as he watched the snow now falling thickly outside. "All been talking about me, have you? Well, I'm getting used to it..."
"We wanted to talk TO you, Harry," said Ginny, "but as you've been hiding ever since we got back--"
"I didn't want anyone to talk to me," said Harry, who was feeling more and more nettled.
"Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily, "seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels."

It certainly appears that Harry became first irritated at Ron and Ginny for talking about him behind his back, then snapped at Hermione for attempting to lighten the mood, and then became more irritated at Ginny's words before she gave him a talking-to about being possessed. We are all familiar with the rest of the passage, in which Hermione, Ron, and Ginny ALL manage to reassure Harry that he never left Hogwarts and wasn't being possessed. Each contributed something, and I need hardly remind anyone that none of them was correct in their assessment of the possession issue.

And I conceed that this along with the DA were her only real successes in modifying his behavior when they were at odds. Two incidents out of all the other times they argue. It's not a good record.

Two incidents out of a few arguments between Harry and Hermione, compared to zero instances of compromisation out of several arguments from Ron and Hermione--that isn't a very good record either.

He got distracted and she pulled him back. I don't count it as particularly significant.

"The Department of Mysteries", pg. 774
She grabbed his arm and pulled, but he resisted.
"Harry, we are supposed to be here for Sirius!" she said in a high-pitched, strained voice.
"Sirius," Harry repeated, still gazing, mesmerized, at the continuously swaying veil. "Yeah..."
And then something slid back into place in his brain. Sirius, captured, bound, and tortured, and he was staring at this archway...
He took several paces back from the dais and wrenched his eyes from the veil.
"Let's go," he said.

Hermione, after several attempts to literally drag him away, reminded him of Sirius. Of course, it was the memory of Sirius that lured Harry away from the veil, but let's also keep in mind who it was that brought up Sirius in the first place.

And has as little success as anyone else. And I have no reason to think that Hermione is going to do any better the following year. On an intellectual level, she was doing very well. On an emotional level, she was doing very badly this year. That was one of the reasons that she kept failing with him. And I don't see that getting any better next year. The fact of the matter is that half the time Hermione didn't need to tell Harry what to do. He knew what the right thing was to do. The thing is he didn't care, he didn't want to do the right thing. Hermione has had very little success at getting Harry to want to do the right thing when he doesn't want to. The DA and checking with the OotP headquarters were her two successes out of a string of failures.

Harry needs to develop as a character, and part of this development will involve the acknowledgement of what is right and the strength and courage to carry it out, despite the more tempting course of action. Hermione is the only one who will vocally remind him of the right thing to do, and without her, it would be much easier for Harry to convince himself that it's okay to ignore the voice of reason. She has already started to affect his judgment subconsciously. And, as you pointed out, she had two successes in a string of failures. Two is better than zero, which is the amount of times that anyone else has been able to convince Harry to do the right thing.

When he's just feeling bad about occlumency, there isn't a lot of sympathy on her behalf. She just tells him to work harder. When Ron feels bad about being a Keeper she gives him a lot more sympathy instead of telling him to work harder.

I looked for evidence of Hermione being apathetic to Harry when he was feeling bad about Occlumency, and this is all I found:

"Occlumency", pg. 540
"....Harry, are you sure you're all right?"
For Harry had just run both hands over his forehead as though trying to iron it.
"Yeah...fine..." he said, lowering his hands, which were trembling. "I just feel a bit..I don't like Occlumency much."
"I expect anyone would feel shaky if they'd had their mind attacked over and over again," said Hermione sympathetically. "Look, let's get back to the common room, we'll be a bit more comfortable there..."

When Ron was feeling lousy about playing Keeper after the first practice, Hermione assumed without his even saying so that he was lacking in skills. She meant well by trying to reassure him that he'll get better with practice, and he bit her head off. She made the effort, certainly, but her response was to tell him that it was just the first training session and that he was bound to do something (presumably get better with practice).

The fact that she's sympathetic and supportive for Ron in lesser matters indicates that she reacts to him more strongly. In general she only shows concern for Harry's feelings in extreme situations.

Because Harry's situations are always more extreme than Ron's. I'm not sure where you are inferring that Hermione reacts to Ron more strongly when he's down in the dumps, other than the above Quidditch practice scene, but the fact is still that Hermione has shown sympathy and caring for Harry, like you said, and that this is only in the extreme cases. Well, all of Harry's situations are extreme, compared to Ron's. Even when we get a more extreme case of Ron being down on himself, Hermione doesn't show nearly as much sympathy as she shows in Harry's situations.

GoF, "Padfoot Returns"(?) {Paraphrased}
...."I hate being poor."
Harry and Hermione exchanged nervous looks.
"It's rubbish," Ron continued. "I don't blame Fred and George for wanting to make some extra money. Wish I could. Wish I had a niffler."
"Well, now we know what to get you next Christmas!" said Hermione in a falsely bright tone. "Oh come on, Ron, it could be worse. At least your fingers aren't full of pus."

Other than this, the Quidditch practices, and Percy, Ron hasn't had too many low moments compared to Harry. Yet even in this one, Hermione doesn't show much sympathy for him.

However the question is whether she has to be his girlfriend in order to do this. I don't see any reason that she has to be his girlfriend to give him this advice. In fact I think it's better if they just remain friends. That means that she's going to be more objective about Harry and his needs. She doesn't have to worry about saying anything that might hurt their relationship.

The problem is that the girl whom Harry is going to be with will need to be able to keep him in check and offer sound advice, and so far no one has shown the ability to do so other than Hermione.

Well, now off to read Mutant's post about Ginny. You can be sure that I'll have something to say about this as well. :p Even though my fingers are sort of falling off from typing, but I can't resist replying. Nice posts, everyone.

[i]Originally posted by Hawk 92

Nice post Earendil :clappy: are you in the 00 Division?

Am I? :scared: Like Turambar said, what's the payoff? Would I be getting souped-up BMWs and martinis all day?

[FlyingPhoenix]

Maybe some off you might recorgnise it that even how great written how many work is in your post Mutant for Hire. I don´t know where you come from.

Your first few post in the first thread there I could see what you mean and I could even say that you hit a point where I could say or where I think R/Hr will happen. I still see possibles for this ship. I could understand your thinking and what you wrote. But now by this Ginny vs. Hermione issuse I´m lost. I´m truely lost this is what I don´t get on the cosforum not very often. I see where your points are and I know that Hermione has issuse but my problem is that by this whole discussion is the background complett away.

Off course Hermione look in that case bad and Ginny rather pretty good. But its like I just ignore that Harry is Harry Potter, the-boy-who-lived.
Off course in OotP isn´t all again written what was happening in the last four books but for me is Hermiones doing only understandable if I indeed read all four books before I did read OotP. If I take only OotP without background knowledge I did agree with you but I did read it so I have to disagree.

I don´t will post all that stuff again this points which I see are missing but I might say that we should look at COS how Ginny is and to OotP how Ginny is in that book. Not what she say more what she not say is interest and you might see that Ginnys issuse are much more dangerous as Hermiones. Ginny never ask why. Thats what I truely not like on people. They should ask why because only that way you won´t come into danger.

Maybe but only maybe someone could answer my question why Ron and Ginny, Luna don´t doubt Harry? Why they aren´t care enough to ask critisim questions? Why is it only Hermione who ask?

[haycheng]

Library chapter...
It is definely a moment for H/G, but I find it is less well wirtten for a beginning of a romantic relationship. The fact that never ask why bother me. I would not mind harry just says,"I have some personal problem need to talk with Sirus." then Ginny accept it. It is still reckless but at least she wants know why. Instead she just runs to twice and arrange the whole thing. No ever bother to tell harry how reckless his action is and ask him is it worth the risk. Ever Harry himself considers it is reckless. he only decides to do it at the last mins. I believe he also values twice efford and loyality showed to him in the decision making. The fact is Harry did not have to talk with Sirus. All he need is a nice long talk and some comfort. Ginny can ever recommend harry to talk with McD, who is the head of the house for Jame. Ever hagird may know something. he is the gamekeeper at that time.
Harry will definely get kill really soon if he is going to rely on her.

[Earendil]

I think that Mar Dhea said most of the things that I wanted to say about Mutant's post A few things that I still want to address, and I'll to try to keep this short for once, as I'm running low on time. ;)

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
My belief is that JKR laid the first cornerstone for a Harry/Ginny relationship in book five, with the scene in the library.

First big problem. If the first actual, substantial, and significant cornerstone for H/G (and I don't mean Harry saving her from the chamber or catching her eye when he laughs about Percy) occurs in Book Five, it's a problem. This is their first meaningful interaction that can be drawn on for sufficient and indisputable evidence, and it happens after four and three-quarters of a book--all of which included meaningful conversations between Harry and Hermione.

Why did Harry talk to Ginny, who he knew very little of, as opposed to Hermione who he knew for years and had a formidable reputation for genius? Because his history with her worked against her. He knew what her response would be and it was not what he wanted, and for that matter, it probably wasn't what he needed either.

Actually, Harry even realized later that he didn't need to speak to Sirius. This wasn't a matter of life and death, and with all of Hermione's pleading and insisting, it finally got through to him even for a moment that it was too risky and that he could wait to speak to Sirius. This wasn't what he needed at all; it was what he wanted. He wanted to feel better about his dad being a jerk. He didn't need to take the unnecessary risk.

She didn't ask why, and I think that she actually understood in rough terms why Harry needed to talk to his godfather. She knew how much Sirius meant to Harry and given that Harry was acting so depressed, he likely wanted to talk to his godfather about some personal problem, whatever was making him depressed. Ginny wanted Harry to cheer up and must have figured that talking to Sirius would help and so she offered to assist him.

Second big problem. She didn't ask why. The sensible thing to do would be to at least find out roughly why he was willing to break into Umbridge's office and risk expulsion and further trouble with the Ministry. For all she knew, he could have been putting himself in serious danger, or risking his education for something utterly stupid. Instead, she seemed so eager to cheer him up and even to impress him with her...ability to go running to Fred and George, that she immediately offered a solution without considering any possible consequences.

Hermione's reaction afterwards was not good, and for that matter, her reaction demonstrated some limits of hers. She never bothered to ask why Harry wanted to contact Sirius, what was so important that he needed to talk to his godfather. She never even tried to find a safer way for Harry to contact Sirius, even when there was a way available (McGonagall). Admittedly, Ginny didn't ask either, she just saw that Harry needed to speak to Sirius and tried to give him what he needed.

You said it yourself: neither Hermione nor Ginny bothered to find out why Harry needed to speak to Sirius so badly. The difference is that Hermione thought first of the consequences, while Ginny thought first of the quick-fix. Hermione took the sensible viewpoint, while Ginny took the reckless viewpoint. Ginny wasn't giving him what he needed, she was giving him what he wanted--even though what he wanted was potentially dangerous and almost got him caught.

Ginny also has a record of giving Harry what he needs. He needed to hear her out on her own experience with possession, and he needed help going into the Ministry, even if he didn't want to talk to her the first time and didn't want her coming along the second time. Both times she faced resistance and did what she felt was right.

He didn't need to hear that he wasn't being possessed when, in truth, he was. He didn't need to adopt a false sense of security rather than putting himself on his guard. He also didn't need her and Neville and Luna to make a fuss about tagging along to the Ministry, or Ginny telling him to watch his tone after he snapped at her.

Ginny, on the other hand, Harry has fewer reservations about talking to now. The one time he unburdened himself, she didn't take his head off or made him feel like an idiot. She cheered him up and gave him the help that he needed, which was mainly to lift his spirits. The diversion also proved of use. Even if he's still reluctant to take her into a dangerous situation, that's not the same as going to her when he needs someone to talk to. Someone he's not expecting to be scolded by in return.

The thing is, I would imagine that if this barrier between them was so effectively crushed in the library scene, Harry would have had no problem in letting her come with them to the Ministry. He wasn't just reluctant, his instinct compelled him to automatically leave her and Luna out when they offered to help. He told her "never mind" when she asked if they could help, as if it wasn't her business. This isn't typical behavior coming from a boy who has just learned to trust a girl. If he was so comfortable in her ability to help him following the library scene, we would very likely have seen something in the narration to indicate his newfound appreciation for her sympathy and helpfulness--and all we saw was him trying to leave as many people behind as possible, including Ginny.

Harry needs fun from a girlfriend more than practical stuff. He'll get the practical stuff from Hermione whether or not he's her boyfriend or not. A girlfriend is there to have fun with, to help him feel better about his life, and similar issues.

I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, but this has less to do with canon than with personal opinions. I won't elaborate, because this comes down to personal values more than anything else, but I will content myself with saying that I think a girlfriend should do more than brighten her boyfriend's life and give him false hopes and tell him what he wants to hear.

Expect Hermione's average time with Harry, especially Harry by himself to drop.

Even considering the amount of alone time that Hermione had with Harry in OotP, which was a significant increase from the first four books, although she had more important one-on-one scenes with him than Ron did. After carefully reading your post, I'm still unclear as to where this idea of Hermione drifting away from Harry is coming from. There was a significant pattern all through the past five books of Harry coming to depend on Hermione more and more, despite all her negative qualities, and they had more alone time in OotP than ever before. Add on the fact that at the end of OotP he realized that he ought to have listened to her all along, I find it hard to believe that Harry will be able to do anything other than to depend on Hermione even more for advice and companionship. No matter how much she annoyed him, by the end he recognized that A) she was entirely loyal to him even when they disagreed over something, and B) he should have listened to her advice about Occlumency, Sirius, and Kreacher all along. After this, how will she just drop away from his life to make room for Ginny?

[evaluna]

DD and all who PM'd me: I'm not seeing any options: bold, sizing, etc, on my post @top of page [nor anyone else's bolding & other text options], so I'd forgotten I probably was testing this. Problem has been fixed & please give it a read now that you can do.
Thanks for letting me know.

Also...


MFH:
"Harry needs fun from a girlfriend more than practical stuff. He'll get the practical
stuff from Hermione whether or not he's her boyfriend or not. A girlfriend is
there to have fun with, to help him feel better about his life, and similar issues."

Earendil (response):
"I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, but this has less to do with canonn than with personal opinions. I won't elaborate, because this comes down to personal values more than anything else, but I will content myself with saying that I think a girlfriend should do more than brighten her boyfriend's life and give him false hopes and tell him what he wants to hear."


Let me just say that I cannot underscore strongly enough that IMO Earendil has the right of it. The chasm is wide and I whilst I respect the right of others to stand on the other side of that chasm, that's nearly all I can respectfully say on that. Except that I think this perspective can vary not just across personalities but also life experiences and levels of emotional maturity, none of which necessarily correlate, granted.

However, I do think that from Harry's POV, MFH's statement is not in any way evidenced in the canon and in fact there is much to contradict it, given the value Harry places on Hermione, a value above all others IMO.


Cheer

[GryffindorGal]

[quote]Originally posted by EricaM (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=473345#post473345))

Erica:
I don't doubt that Ron and Hermione are together when Harry is, for whatever reason, unavailable, but they don't make an effort to spend time together (at least Hermione doesn't) when Harry *is* available. Hermione could have chosen to remain at the part with Ron (sans Harry) but she didn't (afterall, what's a little lack of sleep to a besotted teenager?), she could have asked Ron to help with the knitting but she didn't . Ron and Hermione spending time together is nothing out of the ordinary for the remaining two of a trio a friends to do when one of their 'rank' is missing, right?


Exactly! Ron had just made the team he had to be feeling fairly confident of himself. If Hermione were entertaining romantic thoughts of Ron it would have been the perfect chance for her to stick around. . maybe drop a few hints . .maybe Ron would have felt sure enough of himself to drop a few of his own instead Hermione jumps at the first chance she can to leave without being rude. Although she does drop a hint to Harry that she's interested in a little alone time with him and she's disappointed when he turns her down. (perhaps asking him to help make elf clothes wasn't the correct bait. Maybe next time she should ask for help in choosing a broom <g>)

Again, is this becuase they love one another and want to spend every single moment of time together, or is it because they are friends and when Harry is occupied (with actually instructing the class) they gravitate towards each other.? If partnering in DA is indicative of R/Hr whats to be assumed by the partnering in Potions class?


It was actually Cho who kissed Harry.

Yep. She "cornered" him. That's not a very positive mental image.

I also don't believe that they knew, any of them (well, maybe Cho did) that Harry was going to be kissed. Upon his return did Harry find Ron and Hermione on the floor with theirs heads together, Hermione helping Ron with his homework?
Hermione had the opportunity of half an hour alone with Ron, did she work to advance her case with him? No, she spends the time writing a novel to Krum.

A novel in which she and Viktor appear to discuss Harry. Remember in GOF Hermione says that Viktor had never asked her anything about Harry while Viktor is saying to Harry that she talks about you "very often." Seems like that changed. (I'll have to repost my theory on what happened while they were waiting for the carriages later. . I need to edit it a tiny bit to include the prophecy).

Again, is this behaviour borne out of romantic love for one another, or because they are simply two of a trio waiting together for the third?

Cheers
Erica


To be perfectly honest I've gotten the feeling many times that if Harry didn't exist then Ron and Hermione wouldn't be friends. They probably wouldn't have even been sorted into the same house. She'd have been a Ravenclaw. I think that the Hat put her in Gryffindor because it knew that "Harry needs Hermione badly"

Infact I'm making a prediction. If Harry dies at the end of book 7 I believe that Hermione will turn her back completely on the Wizarding World.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Earendil (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=473712#post473712))
First big problem. If the first actual, substantial, and significant cornerstone for H/G (and I don't mean Harry saving her from the chamber or catching her eye when he laughs about Percy) occurs in Book Five, it's a problem. This is their first meaningful interaction that can be drawn on for sufficient and indisputable evidence, and it happens after four and three-quarters of a book--all of which included meaningful conversations between Harry and Hermione.

This is a book that also was starting to highlight Ginny Weasley from the moment he got to the OotP headquarters. Ginny pops in and starts contributing relevent information to the spy operation by the students on their elders right from the start. And later on that night, Fred and George make a comment about how powerful a witch she has. Then there is the fact that Harry spends his time on the train with Ginny, as well as Neville and Luna. Then there is the fact that Ginny goes in and fills the hole Harry left on the Quidditch team as well. And I didn't mention all the conversations that Harry and Ginny have had in the book.

Actually, Harry even realized later that he didn't need to speak to Sirius. This wasn't a matter of life and death, and with all of Hermione's pleading and insisting, it finally got through to him even for a moment that it was too risky and that he could wait to speak to Sirius. This wasn't what he needed at all; it was what he wanted. He wanted to feel better about his dad being a jerk. He didn't need to take the unnecessary risk.

On the other hand, no disaster resulted from the whole affair and even if Harry didn't need to practically talk, I think that emotionally it was a good thing for him to have done. I'll conceed that Ginny may not have been right, but only on the level that there was no absolute right or wrong on that whole issue.

Second big problem. She didn't ask why. The sensible thing to do would be to at least find out roughly why he was willing to break into Umbridge's office and risk expulsion and further trouble with the Ministry. For all she knew, he could have been putting himself in serious danger, or risking his education for something utterly stupid. Instead, she seemed so eager to cheer him up and even to impress him with her...ability to go running to Fred and George, that she immediately offered a solution without considering any possible consequences.

She didn't strike me as a lovesick girl trying to impress Harry at that point. Or even trying to worm her way into Harry's inner circle. She was simply trying to be helpful there.

You said it yourself: neither Hermione nor Ginny bothered to find out why Harry needed to speak to Sirius so badly. The difference is that Hermione thought first of the consequences, while Ginny thought first of the quick-fix. Hermione took the sensible viewpoint, while Ginny took the reckless viewpoint. Ginny wasn't giving him what he needed, she was giving him what he wanted--even though what he wanted was potentially dangerous and almost got him caught.

On the other hand, Ginny was quite aware that Harry was depressed and was trying to help cheer him up. Hermione was trying to be careful, but Ginny was showing more care for Harry's feelings in doing something at all. Even if it was a trifle risky.

He didn't need to hear that he wasn't being possessed when, in truth, he was. He didn't need to adopt a false sense of security rather than putting himself on his guard. He also didn't need her and Neville and Luna to make a fuss about tagging along to the Ministry, or Ginny telling him to watch his tone after he snapped at her.

Technically, he wasn't being possessed. He was being fed false visions, which is an entirely different matter. And as for Ginny snapping at Harry for being rude, I take it that it's all right when Hermione does it, as she did earlier in the book?

The thing is, I would imagine that if this barrier between them was so effectively crushed in the library scene, Harry would have had no problem in letting her come with them to the Ministry. He wasn't just reluctant, his instinct compelled him to automatically leave her and Luna out when they offered to help. He told her "never mind" when she asked if they could help, as if it wasn't her business. This isn't typical behavior coming from a boy who has just learned to trust a girl. If he was so comfortable in her ability to help him following the library scene, we would very likely have seen something in the narration to indicate his newfound appreciation for her sympathy and helpfulness--and all we saw was him trying to leave as many people behind as possible, including Ginny.

The fact of the matter is there was a world of difference between talking to Ginny about who he wanted to talk to, and taking her in to face Death Eaters and Voldemort. And for that matter, he was fully prepared to leave Hermione behind as well.

I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, but this has less to do with canon than with personal opinions. I won't elaborate, because this comes down to personal values more than anything else, but I will content myself with saying that I think a girlfriend should do more than brighten her boyfriend's life and give him false hopes and tell him what he wants to hear.

And of course Ginny has so little spine as to stand up to him on more than one occasion, facing his anger. To remind him that she is an expert on possession by Voldemort, and to keep him from going off alone into the Ministry of Magic. Ginny has never told Harry what he wants to hear just because its what he wants to hear.

And when did Ginny give Harry false hopes? She told him that contacting Sirius could be accomplished and she was right.

And I stand by what I think Harry needs most in a girlfriend. If for example, the only thing that Luna Lovegood could do would be to give a sympathetic ear to Harry and make him feel better and take his mind of his troubles with his goofy behavior, that would be fine. He'd be going to Hermione and others for more practical advice. The only thing he needs from a girlfriend is emotional support. It's better to have more than that, but that's an extra rather than a central benefit.

Even considering the amount of alone time that Hermione had with Harry in OotP, which was a significant increase from the first four books, although she had more important one-on-one scenes with him than Ron did. After carefully reading your post, I'm still unclear as to where this idea of Hermione drifting away from Harry is coming from. There was a significant pattern all through the past five books of Harry coming to depend on Hermione more and more, despite all her negative qualities, and they had more alone time in OotP than ever before. Add on the fact that at the end of OotP he realized that he ought to have listened to her all along, I find it hard to believe that Harry will be able to do anything other than to depend on Hermione even more for advice and companionship. No matter how much she annoyed him, by the end he recognized that A) she was entirely loyal to him even when they disagreed over something, and B) he should have listened to her advice about Occlumency, Sirius, and Kreacher all along. After this, how will she just drop away from his life to make room for Ginny?

And I keep reinterating the point that a good chunk of the time that Harry already knew what Hermione would say. In fact he didn't really need to talk to her much at all and was in fact not talking to her since he was pretty confident of the results and didn't want it. And even if he did, why bother? The fact that Harry was rejecting Hermione's advice was persistantly emotional. I don't think that's going to change at all, not unless she changes the way that she presents advice.

Here is a flat question: Do you think that Hermione is good at presenting advice to Harry in a way that doesn't offend him, makes him receptive to hearing unpleasant facts/plans and to embrace them? If so, why?

And I repeat my point. Harry was deliberately not going to Hermione because it was too uncomfortable to go talking to her. I do not believe that his revelation has made him change how he feels about her critical nature, or that it will be any more comfortable for him to be scolded by her. In the end I don't think he's going to find her any less irritating, even if he recognizes her loyalty to him. I think he's going to start going to someone like Ginny who is slightly less irritating to talk to about sensitive matters.

[Hope1272]

<quote>
Earendil (response):
"I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, but this has less to do with canonn than with personal opinions. I won't elaborate, because this comes down to personal values more than anything else, but I will content myself with saying that I think a girlfriend should do more than brighten her boyfriend's life and give him false hopes and tell him what he wants to hear."


You said it beautifully, Earendil. Harry needs someone who gets it, not on the surface like Cho, but really gets what his life is about. Which really does leave Hermione or Ginny. And on paper, Ginny would seem to fit the bill, but her involvement in this latest adventure puts another con into the arguement. Now she's involved with their adventures, she will have to stop going along with Harry's wants(as in the library discussion)and start thinking about Harry's needs. If she starts doing that, then the fun, bright part of being the theoretical girlfriend takes a bit of a hit because now she does have to be more mindful. It's either that or keeping her away in some separate place from the trio and the situation at hand, thereby giving less weight to what she says and does.

And we're also just looking at it from Harry's point of view. If Ginny is involved in this fight actively now, wouldn't she need someone to lift her spirits as well? Maybe that's why she was considering someone fun like Dean instead of The Boy Who Lived at the end of the book.;)

[FRED ASTAIRE]

How about....Harry + Ginny, Ron + Hermione AND Neville and Luna???

JK MIGHT throw a spanner in the works and put Harry with Susan Bones (darn, I hope NOT!! :angry: ) or Harry and Luna; that's even worst! :'( :rasp: :grumble:

[FlyingPhoenix]

I thought always Harry need to recorgnise a girl or a person befor something happens?!

And I do agree with Earendil that a girlfriend isn´t there just for fun or brighten up the day. A girlfriend is something close, something who you trust and believe what she say or even know she don´t tell you fairy taley just to see you happy. Someone like that tells you always the true even your best friend shut up. She say it even it dos hurt you and still you know she say it because she care about you. A girlfriend isn´t a comic figure.

[MalfoyIsMINE]

I think that Dean and Ginny will last for a bit, but I really dont see it being more than 2 years...but you never know maybe Dean could become a bigger role and help with the order and that will make them last longer, that is a shot in the dark, but you know...I also think that Ginny doesn't seem to be very interested in a long term realtionship especially how she was so emotionless after dumping Micheal Corner....

[GilyAnn]

:bigtu: Mutant for hire! Excellent post!

And is it possible JKR is using red-haired Ginny as a romantic red herring? Someone else brought up Ginny as a possible romantic red herring, w/which I increasingly agree, the more I study Ginny's position.

If you see the pictures of Lily of jkr Ginny does have the description of Harry's mother. Short, long hair etc. Euu!

Did I say Ginny had the idea? Did I say Ginny did command the others around? No, to be exactly I did say why Hermione sort herself together with Harry not more and not less. If Hermione did sort herself to that what Ron later dos that is like running away and look after Umbridge and not stand by side of Harry with who she had only seconds before a big arguement. That shows clearly that she is on his side even they argue with each other. Thats my point and I didn´t implied that Ginny, by the way Ron did look after Umbridge, would run away. He didn´t has this argument with Harry.

You said this:


They don´t run away and say I look after Umbridge.

I said that the initial idea was from Hermione not Ginny, Luna, Ron, or Harry.

That might be the first sight but if I look at the whole conversation you might see that as fast as Harry starts to shoot as fast is Ron suddenly at Harrys side. Its exactly like by the Weasley twins or earlier as Harry startet again with shooting. Ron don´t stand against Harry up and don´t has his own opinion.

FP if I put the whole conversation I read it! And Ron gave Harry his support because he though he had a point. If anything Ron showed in this book was diplomacy. When he thought someone was right, he was right, When he didn't have anything to say he quiet himself. I think he showed a lot of diplomacy towards the issues.

Being Harry's girlfriend takes that danger and makes it double. So we have her in danger already, and then we have her in even more danger. This doesn't have to do with what I think should happen between Harry and Ginny; it has to do with what Ron probably hasn't realized yet. I made this point because I don't think that Ron is aware of the fact that LV may want to target Ginny, or that her becoming involved with Harry increases the danger even more. This isn't a point for my ship or against the H/G ship; it is just an observation about Ron's apparent desire to see Harry and Ginny together. Hope that clears things up.

Ok now I see what you mean. But that's could be one of the reasons why Ron may think they are good for each other. The fact that Ginny is already a target it makes her one of the perfect candidates for Girlfriend for Harry. Her involvement with Voldemort has nothing to do with Harry so it takes away from Harry the worry of him being responsible for something happening to her. She is already involve in the whole Voldemort issue and that is whether Harry likes it or not.

Ginny and danger:

I know I'm going to get told how I'm grasping at straws (just like I was doing with the essay) but I want to go on record on this. Ginny does know when there is danger. She knows when a risk is not worth taken and when a risk has to be taken regardless of the consecuences. She knows when something is serious and when something can be taken lightly.

The fact is that there was a risk involved on Harry talking to Sirius but something that it was necessary. This is literature not real life. Harry's issue needed to be resolved. Yes Harry questions himself if he wanted to be like his dad but that is exactly the point. Harry's issue about how his father had been. Had to be talked and resolved. Sitting and pondering alone was not going to resolved the issue.

Ginny already knew that something was bothering Harry since she had already spotted that Harry was depress lately. So she knows that something is bothering him already. Ginny didn't need a condition to help Harry. She did that twice. She helped him without asking questions when she thought that he trully needed the help. Well second time she was actually helping Hermione on her plan but you get the picture. But she notice that he needed help because he seemed depress lately. Would it had stop Harry from talking to Sirius or to have gone with the DoM? Probably not. Harry would have done it anyway.

Harry is a big boy now. He doesn't need a mother, he needs a partner a companion. Harry doesn't need to be told, watch and taken care like a child. Harry had a mother and she died. What he needs now is a girlfriend. Harry is a big boy now and he is responsable for his own actions, he has a concious and knows when something is right or wrong, but something is risky and when something is not. Making his partner the one who has to watch over him is one of the things that it really irks me about the H/Hr relationship. It's like trying to get a mother for Harry who at this point doesn't need one. That is the one thing that is constatly emphasised on the H/Hr relationship. Is not a wife or a girlfriend responsability to watch over the man. This isn't the flinstones era. This is 2003 men have their own mind and choose their own destiny. We are individuals not slave of the ones we love.

Keeping Harry safe is one thing that it would be impossible in the HP series. First because this is literature and second because that is where the action comes from. No action no story. One of the things that jkr says that she admires the most is bravery but with bravery comes risk and failing. By keeping Harry safe and close out (like Dumbledore did) he is most likely to fail because he'll need to take risks and take chances in order to grow up. I fail to see how Hermione "keeping Harry safe" is going to help him there. As smart as she is, I worried about the girl. First because jkr keeps on reminding us and second because it was obvious to me that from the house to the road there is a difference and a long road.

Gily Ann

[haycheng]

I still stand by what I say Gile Ann I would not rule out the possibility of h/g. I believe it has as much chance as H/Hr. However, the library incident is poorly played. I would not mind Ginny being reckless, but at the really least she should try to talk with Harry. She should definely not do it in hermione way, who only trys to prevent harry doing anything remotely risky. she could trying to talk to him about his problem, offer him adivce and tell him it is risky. Then she may decide to go through with the plan. Moreover, harry is in the mood to talk, she may actually able to get him to pill the bean. Then she may able to offer alternative solution. Why not talk with McD, or hagrid. Both know harry's parent well. (Sirus is still the best choice but there are other people who can answer the question)
I still do not see Ron being diplomacy. He only support Hermione view about DA after he knows for sure Harry is not going to be angry. Is anything that show he has decided to be silent supporter of Harry. None of the kids has showed any diplomacy kill as far as I know.

[Mar Dhea]

GilyAnn, I see your point that Harry doesn't need a babysitter. Fair enough. But I don't think Hermione is holding Harry's hand through everything he does, or mothers him. Now, if it were someone else, yeah, she does tend to worry too much. But this is Harry - saviour of witch- and wizard-kind, prime target for one of the most evil villains ever...and he also happens not to fully get that, and run around, if not deliberately, putting himself in danger. Hermione, by nature, is an anxious person. She also sees things in situations that Harry does not, and like a true frined - not a mother replica - helps him through the hard stuff. Would it be preferred she sit back and not care? It's not only that he's The Boy Who Lived, or nay of that stuff - he's one of her best friends, who also happens to have a price on his head. Of course she's going to worry. Of course she's going to help him when he gets into sticky situations. I'd be worried if she didn't. If it were a normal guy who wasn't prime target for this pack of heartless villains, the ringleader of which looks upon emotion that isn't hatred, comtempt of otherwise villainish twinges with serious disdain, I'd say something. She doesn't keep trying to advise Ron not to run headlong into danger, does she? So, like, why does she keep the record going with Harry and not Ron? Hmm...why'd that be...oh yeah - he's not in mortal peril all the time! Give Hermione a break, Harry's the star attraction for danger. I'd be highly strung if I were in her shoes too - and she's being incredibly intelligent, and not underestimating what Harry is up against, unlike his other friends.

And I've been meaning to say this - do you know why Ginny's character is how it is? She is the typical girl that everyone can relate to. She is Miss Average. She's a female Ron - the person we can say "Hey! I was like that at 14!" Or "I wish I was like that at 14". Personally, I don't particularly relate to her, but that's her role, in myt opinion. Put simply, she is the Average Josephine. And while a very short-lived romance might blossom between herself and Harry, I doubt it'll be The One. I wouldn't particularly like to see it, actually (I mean the big romance) becasue, obviously, I'd like ot see H/Hr. But I have personal reason for that ship aswell, not just the canon. I love the idea that Harry will fall for someone so unique, so...decidedly un-typical girl, because there's something a little quirky about it. She's not the really popular one, she's not the schools ugly duckling that blossoms, miracle-style like in so many teen films, she is really intelligent and she's...Hermione. That's the best way I can explain it. If it is a H/G romance, I won't throw the books out the window. I don't have any 'Ginny Sucks' signs taped around my room or anything, but...Ginny is so...typical. She's unique as well, but...typical at the same time. It would be a bit disappointing if the typical one, who's not at a loss for guys, is the one. I have no idea why I feel like that, but...anyways.

[MoF]

Harry is a big boy now. He doesn't need a mother, he needs a partner a companion. Harry doesn't need to be told, watch and taken care like a child.

Both Mutant and GilyAnn keeps repeating this part about Hermione.
It just seems like you perceive Hermione differently than others (like myself) do. Hermiones actions towards Harry have been discussed a lot now. I stil fail to see how Hermione treats Harry like a dim-witted mule.
She doesn't try to overrule him, she tries to reason out woth him. Om some occasions she doesn't reason with him, though, but that is in so very important matters that she doesn't care how Harry feels about her, on those occasions she thinks it more important to keep him alive than to save her own raltionship with him. I don't think that your girfriend, your soulmate, should just say what you want to hear; this point has been made by many before me. Hopefully, Harry knows by now that Hermione is right about these things, he certainly learned his lesson with Sirius.
In short, i don't see how Hermione treats Harry like child, but i do see that Harry has been reluctant to listen to reason (well, it is a bit hard to blame him, given his situation). I dont want Harrys girlfriend to comfort him and make him feel better in these situations, if anybody does that, Harry has a greatly enhanced chance of loosing the battle against You-Know-Who.

[Turambar]

Some great posts especially by Evaluna and Earendil.
MarDhea: just to add to the Hermione-Mercury link, we've also had previous posts saying Hermione as a name is also the female version of Hermes, also the messenger of the gods. Hermioine clearly stands on the right side of the right vs easy debate and her views on Harry's safety are in tune with Dumbledore, McGonagall's and other in OOTP.
Just on that Rowena mentioned that Hermione may have been looking to say 'I told you so' to Harry over Sirius and breaking into Umbridge's office. But one of the interesting things about OOTP is that, despite the fact that she's right about a lot of things, and Harry eventually acknowledges that, she never rubs it in by say I told you so.
Evaluna: I liked what you said about other girls in Gryffindor having the qualities that Ginny displays. I agree, I got the impression that Harry, while he got to know and like Ginny better, wasn't particularly impressed by anything she did. She behaved according to expectations. Whereas with Hermione there's a pattern through all of the books of Hermione regularly surprising him.

[evaluna]

GilyAnn:
I see you've put quite a bit of thought into your post. I won't respond to most of your text points, as I've already gone on record and I'm not clear who's read what of mine. We will just have to agree to disagree on this. Again, no one's ruling anything out. It's simply a matter of what we each think is more likely, and there's just not a lot of middle ground, it seems.

However just a brief followup to this quote:


GilyAnn:
"Harry is a big boy now. He doesn't need a mother, he needs a partner a companion. Harry doesn't need to be told, watch and taken care like a child. Harry had a mother and she died. What he needs now is a girlfriend. Harry is a big boy now and he is responsable for his own actions, he has a concious and knows when something is right or wrong, but something is risky and when something is not. Making his partner the one who has to watch over him is one of the things that it really irks me about the H/Hr relationship. It's like trying to get a mother for Harry who at this point doesn't need one. That is the one thing that is constatly emphasised on the H/Hr relationship. Is not a wife or a girlfriend responsability to watch over the man. This isn't the flinstones era. This is 2003 men have their own mind and choose their own destiny. We are individuals not slave of the ones we love."

IMO Hermione is certainly already a partner and companion in many ways. She is certainly not his mother, and there is nothing in canon to suggest that he views her in this manner. Again, you are entitled to your opinion but it's helpful if you can cite canon to better show your points. Hermione is very close to Harry in OoP and she is always concerned and in his business. You say she's mothering i.e., being overbearing with strange overtones. However there is absolutely nothing in Harry's behaviour that suggest he thinks of her in that regard but rather as a partner, an esteemed peer, and as an equal he holds in highest regard and trusts above nearly all others.

H/Hr folk say Hermione's tears, her concern, her ability to confront Harry even at his most intimidating, all come naturally from Hermione's deep emotion [perhaps even her love] toward Harry. We are not talking motherly love here, just so we're clear! You may say that Hermione is overbearing or what have you, but Harry never says this, not once. Your opinion may be that she is nosy or is trying to hold him back protectively. However Harry never once indicates that she is too much in his business. Rather, we see that Harry never remains angry at her because he always understands why she's confronting him even though he may not always agree and so what? How boring and unrealistic would that be anyway? Rather, Harry fully expects Hermione's concern for him and in fact Harry gets angry the one time he feels she didn't involve herself on his behalf (per the 'Lavender/Seamus think I'm a nutter and why didn't you jump down Lavender's throat?' episode -- better, see my prior posts these past few pages).

Moreover, regardless of disagreement, there is always respect and we see that Harry never resents her privately or disparages her in any way. We know Harry finds her attractive from previously and nothing in canon suggests that has changed. There is just no mother theme here at all in canon with Harry and Hermione. Whether you accept she is a passionately concerned friend who knows Harry's life is in danger or whether you accept that she may even love him, her relationship to Harry and his to her are neither one a pseudo-mother/son relationship and they never have been -- not in any of the canon to date. Actually I find this comparison much stranger and more disturbing than those who make a brother/sister comparison, even though I disagree with both.
Cheers!

& thanks, Turambar!

[GryffindorGal]

Originally posted by FRED ASTAIRE (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=473844#post473844))
How about....Harry + Ginny, Ron + Hermione AND Neville and Luna???

JK MIGHT throw a spanner in the works and put Harry with Susan Bones (darn, I hope NOT!! :angry: ) or Harry and Luna; that's even worst! :'( :rasp: :grumble:




Harry/Hermione. They complement each other beautifully. He's a bit implusive and she tempers it. She was a follow the rules girl and he gets her to break them with a smile. Yet at the same time they recognise when to let the oher have his/her way.

Ron/Luna. . she's a free spirit but with a touch of worldy wisdom that I think the cynical Ron needs.

Ginny/Neville -- she's bold and a bit brash the perfect one to draw the shyer Neville out of his shell.

[Hawk 92]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472973#post472973))
Bear with me, Hawk, because I'm not sure you're going to like this interpretation. I don't think I particularly like it myself.

Rowena

I see that this has already been responded to but I felt it would be rude to ignore it as it was addressed to me. But I'm not beating up on this. And I'll be happy to bear with you as we had quite a few interesting debates in the past and I've always given respect and full attention to your posts.

The reason I say that wanting to check Grimmauld Place was an indulgence on Hermione's part is that she didn't take it seriously. She was completely, unshakeably convinced Harry's fears were unfounded. Otherwise, how could she have justified sending Harry alone into what might well have proved a trap in itself? She had no way of knowing Voldemort hadn't gotten Sirius from inside Headquarters itself. Moreover, in her attempt to prove the threat imaginary, she exposed Harry to a very real adversary--Professor Umbridge. Not nearly as much of a problem as Voldemort, granted, but a complication nonetheless.

I think that Hermione truly felt it was a trap and that she made it clear that it was a trap in the text. Also as was pointed out Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the OotP headquarters making it possibly the safest place to be. Now I think that Harry would have had to see for himself that Sirius was there. After all that was a pretty strong picture to have in one's head and the only way to get that out was to see for himself.

I'm sure Hermione felt she was looking out for Harry's best interests. But I think she was also partially in denial. She believed the danger to be distant. She thought as long as Harry didn't put itself directly in its path, he would be okay. If she truly understood the danger posed by Voldemort better than Ron or Ginny, as FlyingPhoenix suggested, she'd have known he was directly in its path, no matter where he went or what he did.

That doesn't mean that he has to walk into a trap. To understand that Harry facing Voldemort is one thing. But to do it on Voldemort's terms and conditions is something else. In short Hermione doesn't try to stop Harry at all once Harry tells her that Sirius is not at headquarters. She accepts that he has to go at this point and she goes with him, she still knows that its a trap but know she believes Harry that Voldemort has Sirius and he needs rescued. And she walks into the trap with him.

And subconsciously, perhaps there was a bit of a desire to say "I told you so" when Harry sheepishly came back to report Sirius was okay (as he undoubtedly would).

Perhaps. But to be fair I think that she would have been relived first. And if Sirius was safe I think that Harry wouldn't have cared about an I told you so.

Like I said, I don't like it either. But the more I think about it, the more Hermione's allegedly altruistic assessment of Harry's needs bothers me. There's plenty of willful blindness on both sides.

Where is there willful blindness? No. I don't like it either.

Mutant for Hire

I'll write a longer post to your theory later and I have a theory about the library scene myself to submit but for now

He knew that response because of the last time he had told Hermione he was going to contact Sirius when the situation was less dangerous. She told him not to do it. She didn't even bother to ask why he wanted to contact Sirius, she just told him not to do it and didn't even bother to try to help him find a safe way to contact Sirius (such as going to Dumbledore or McGonagall).

I find it interesting that you put a negative spin on these sort of things. Hermione doesn't want Harry or Sirius to get caught. Now kindly show me in the text where Hermione says that Harry should not discuss things with Sirius? Not the danger to both of them in trying to contact Sirius but that Harry should not be talking to Sirius. Hermione does not want Harry to get expelled and Sirius to end up back in Azkaban. But this doesn't fit the theory so its said that Hermione doesn't want Harry to speak to Sirius. So show me where. If not then this is simply being given a negative spin in order to fit a theory.

Cheers!

[Mar Dhea]

Brilliant post, Evaluna! My sentiments exactly. I think it quite...disturbing, to think that Hermione looks upon Harry as some sort of self-adopted son. I mean, I don't see that at all. I see a rational (yet not overly rational - that's one argument gone, even Harry says it - Hermione is good with feelings) Hermione, trying to help and support her friend and try to help him see that he's not in a position to go creating danger for himself. It is concern, on a frindship level (and possibly more), but not in an odd, subconscious-mother level. Harry doesn't regard Hermione as his mother- that is, in short, very creepy. He sees her as his FRIEND. He never mentions her to be motherly in her actions - he just has difficulty accepting what she says at time because he doesn't want to hear it. It doesn't make what she is saying wrong, of uncalled for. the truth is the truth - it would not be in the spirit of friendship, for Hermione to ignore obvious dangers, or to skirt topic that Harry doesn't like, or to stop voicing her opinions. I mean, would you expect your friends to never say anything, for fear you don't agree with them? And then, look at it like this - would you ignore it if you saw your friend, say, walking off with a stranger, or getting drunk if he/she's very much underage, or putting herself in stupid situations for no reason? And if you voice your opinions and they don't go down well, or you stop your friend from leading him/herself into danger, you're suddenly his/her parent?

Riiiiight.

Edit: This occured to me just now. When Harry didn't go to Hermione to mention his want (not need, he wouldn't die or anything if he didn't get it) to talk to Sirius, IMO, because obv. he knew hwat answer she'd give. Yes. All agreed. he even says so. But why? Becasue she's overbearing? Becasue she's a wet blanket? Sorry to disappoint, but it's just that he knew she was right, and didn't want to face that. He knew it was risky, he knew it wasn't such a great plan, but he didn't want to hear it said becasue that would mean he'd have to hear the truth. Hermione wouldn't be remotely out of line advsing him not to do so - but Harry didn't want to face that. Not Hermione's fault that what is - is.

[GilyAnn]

And I've been meaning to say this - do you know why Ginny's character is how it is? She is the typical girl that everyone can relate to. She is Miss Average. She's a female Ron - the person we can say "Hey! I was like that at 14!" Or "I wish I was like that at 14". Personally, I don't particularly relate to her, but that's her role, in myt opinion. Put simply, she is the Average Josephine.

Ginny is rarely typical. Ginny is one of the characters that like Neville holds a big clue. JKR has made one awesome job on making Ginny look average and week. But the fact is that she is not. She has worked hard in throwing her clues and disguise them.

IMO Hermione is certainly already a partner and companion in many ways. She is certainly not his mother, and there is nothing in canon to suggest that he views her in this manner. Again, you are entitled to your opinion but it's helpful if you can cite canon to better show your points.

Children lied to their mother just as Harry lies to Hermione, Children hide things from their mother, just as Harry hides his grades from Hermione, Children avoid telling their parents stuff so they won’t get reprimanded or telling off. Hermione watches that Harry doesn’t go out from the castle. Corrects his homework, watches that he goes to class, schedule his and Ron’s activities, nags him about doing occlumency, scolds and nags about Harry’s actions. She mothers him, the only that she is left to do is pick out his clothes and we have another Molly Weasley. Mothers tried to stall things just like Hermione tries to stall that Harry goes to the DoM. If anything tells me that Hermione watches over Harry like she is supposed to watch a child.

However Harry never once indicates that she is too much in his business.

Moreover, regardless of disagreement, there is always respect and we see that Harry never resents her privately or disparages her in any way.

Mutant for hire did a few post with all the times that Harry is annoyed with Hermione.


We know Harry finds her attractive from previously and nothing in canon suggests that has changed.

I can’t remember who it was that said that while Harry finds Hermione pretty and I do agree that he does. He is not attracted to her. Attraction will require something else that so far Harry has not shown the slighlest hint of having for Hermione. I agree with that.

Gily Ann

[Hawk 92]

Arguments against H/G

Now I’ve seen 2 possible H/G moments presented in this forum so far.

1) When Ginny is talking to Harry at the OotP headquarters at Christmas.
2) Ginny and Harry in the library.

Moment number 1 is easy enough to see on page 500-501

Harry started pacing up and down the room again, thinking. What they were all saying was not only comforting, it made sense..... Without really thinking he took a sandwich from the plate on the bed and crammed it hungrily int his mouth..........
I’m not the weapon after all,thought Harry. His heart swelled with happiness and relief,
*Emphasis JKR*

This moment is a group victory for Ron, Hermione, and Ginny. So it could go both H/Hr and H/G but if you give it to one you must give it to the other.

The 2nd moment is a lot more interesting to look at:

OotP Ch. Career Advice pg 654-656
Ginny had just came up to Harry in the library

She hoisted a box wrapped in brown paper onto the table; it had clearly been unwrapped and carelessly rewrapped, and there was a scribbled note across it in red ink, reading INSPECTED AND PASSED BY THE HOGWARTS HIGH INQUISITOR.
“It’s Easter Eggs from Mum,� said Ginny. “There’s one for you....... There you go....�
She handed him a handsome chocolate egg decorated with small iced Snitches and, according to the packaging, containing a bag of Frizzing Whizbees. Harry looked at it for a moment, then to his horror, felt a hard lump rise in this throat.
“Are you okay, Harry?� asked Ginny quietly.
“Yeah, I’m fine,� said Harry gruffly. The lump in his throat was painful. He did not understand why an Easter egg should have made him feel like this.
“You seem really down lately,� Ginny persisted. “You know, I’m sure if you just talked to Cho.....�
“It’s not Cho I want to talk to,� said Harry brusquely.
“Who is it, then?� asked Ginny watching him closely.
“I.....�
He glanced around to make sure that nobody was listening; Madam Pince was several shelves away, stamping out a pile of books for a frantic-looking Hannah Abbott.
“I wish I could talk to Sirius,� he muttered. “But I know I can’t.�
Ginny continued to watch himself thoughtfully. More to give himself something to do than because he really wanted any, Harry unwrapped his Easter egg, broke off a large bit and put it into his mouth.
“Well,� said Ginny slowly, helping herself to a bit of egg too, “if you really wanted to talk to Sirius, I expect we could think of a way to do it.......�
“Come on,� said Harry dully. “With Umbridge policing the fires and reading all our mail?�
“The thing about growing up with Fred and George,� said Ginny thoughtfully, “is that you sort of start thinking anything’s possible if you’ve got enough nerve.�
Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate---- Lupin had always advised eating some after encounters with dementors---- or simply because he had finally spoken aloud the wish that he had been burning inside him for a week, but he felt a bit more hopeful.......

Enter Madam Pince and they are chased out of the library...

Now I have a theory about this moment.

On initial examination there isn’t much to go on. But if we go past the obvious a couple of things jump out at us. But we have to look at a few other things first.

In Gof we are introduced to Veritaserum, a truth potion, and in OotP Ch Snapes Worst Memory pg 629- 632 Umbridge invites Harry into her office and offers him a drink. After she thinks that he has taken a drink she begins to question him about the whereabouts of Sirius Black. The logical conclusion is that Umbridge has the Veritserum and has attempted to use it on Harry.(In order to shorten this post somewhat I shall not type out this rather lengthy part of the book). This is later confirmed in OotP when Umbridge has captured Harry and the others and sends for Snape

OotP Ch 32 Out Of the Fire
“Ah, Professor Snape,� said Umbridge, smiling widely and standing up again. “Yes, I would like another bottle of Veritaserum, as quick as you can, please.�
“You took my last bottle to interrogate Potter,� he said, surveying her cooly through his greasy curtains of black hair. “Surely you did not use it all? I told you that three drops would be sufficient.�
Umbridge flushed

But later in OotP we are find out in Ch The Lost Prophecy pg 833 Dumbledore explains to Harry,
“It was he who gave Professor Umbridge fake Vertiaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell of Sirius’s whereabouts.....�

So far we have established that Umbridge had Vertiaserum and did try to use it on Harry. But that Snape has given her a fake potion. Now Snape would have had to give her a potion that could pass for Vertiaserum, in case Umbridge knew what it looked like, but would not have any visible effects to Umbridge when used. To not have a effect different to true Vertiaserum would rule out any sleeping potions, appearance altering potions, or posions.

In OotP we are introduced to an interesting potion in Snape’s class, The Draught of Peace. A potion which according to Snape (Ch Professor Umbridge, page 232) “a potion to calm anxiety and soothe agitation.�

So by all of this we can establish that Umbridge has Vertiaserum and tries to use it on Harry, with unsuccessful results before Ginny meets up with Harry in the Library. That Snape has given her a false potion. And that Umbridge has used it all up.

Now to call your attention to a few things in this “moment�

Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate---- Lupin had always advised eating some after encounters with dementors---- or simply because he had finally spoken aloud the wish that he had been burning inside him for a week, but he felt a bit more hopeful.......

Harry feels more hopeful after eating the chocolate. Why does JKR bring this to our attention?

She hoisted a box wrapped in brown paper onto the table; it had clearly been unwrapped and carelessly rewrapped, and there was a scribbled note across it in red ink, reading INSPECTED AND PASSED BY THE HOGWARTS HIGH INQUISITOR.

This box has been opened and inspected by Umbridge herself. Why does JKR mention this as well?

So here’s my theory on what could have happened,

1)Umbridge has and has tried to use Vertiaserum once already on Harry. This is established before the box of eggs arrives at Hogwarts. So when the box of eggs arrives, Umbridge having already suspected Harry of not drinking the tea, realizes that Harry will not trust something that comes from her. But Harry will trust something that comes from Mrs. Weasley.

2)Umbridge has used up all the fake Vertiaserum that Snape has given her. Where did the extra Vertiaserum go? Into the Easter eggs. Umbridge can have Harry tailed and when he eats his egg come upon him suddenly and start asking questions about Sirius’s location. This would explain where the extra fake Vertiaserum went to.

3)Snape gave Umbridge a fake potion. Now he would have had to use one that wouldn’t produce any visual changes or Umbridge would have known it was a fake. So we can rule out potions that would create any visual form of change. We can also rule out sleeping potions because Umbridge would be suspicious if the person that she was interrogating suddenly fell asleep. And we can rule out poisons because if the person dropped dead then Umbridge would once again be suspicious(not that Snape probably wouldn’t poison Harry but he’d have to answer to Dumbledore and he wouldn’t be sure who else Umbridge might use it on). Now a potion that calms anxiety and soothes agitation would be perfect. The student being questioned would not be flustered into giving any thing away and Umbridge would not know the difference.

So to sum up my Theory,

Umbridge has the Draught of Peace (fake Vertiaserum) and the box of eggs. Not being sure which one is Harry’s she puts the potion into all the eggs (this explains what happened to all the potion). Harry eats the egg and fells better. Umbridge’s plan suffers a setback because Ginny gives Harry his egg in the library and Harry and Ginny are chased out by Madam Pince. So Umbridge is unable to question Harry at that point and has lost her chance at this plan.

So are we sure that Ginny really makes Harry feel better?

Cheers!

[evaluna]

GilyAnn, let me restate for you. Harry has said he finds several girls pretty, including Hermione and exluding Ginny or Luna. One can infer [but it's by no means a stretch] that Harry finds those girls whom he thinks pretty as physically attractive and certainly as potentially physically attractive. Enough on that.

One can also infer by Harry's actions and thoughts -- such as the amount of time Harry spends looking at or thinking about Hermione, trying to better himself so that he doesn't lose her high regard, by the fact that he treats her with the utmost respect in his private thoughts even though he is a total prat [well, understandably and all] throughout the book, by the fact that her voice whispers in his head as his conscience, and by the fact that he chooses to spend nearly all free time with her [and vice-versa] -- that he holds Hermione in very high regard and finds her personality and her character attractive, in other words, interesting and pleasing to him and having the ability to attract Harry -- this is evidenced per canon, as he does spend basically all his spare non-study time with her as well, and that, by choice.

As mentioned Harry dwells on Hermione in thought and form throughout the book. It is clear in canon that Harry spends a lot time thinking about and hanging out with Hermione. No other girl gets this kind of attention from Harry. Hands down, Harry finds her personality and her character attractive and this position is very easy to defend. I don't think it's worthwhile to split hairs further. I think what I'm saying is clear and I've already addressed the other points [re: where you say Hermione is mothering and annoying] in my immediate prior post so I'll just leave it at that.
Cheers!

[Turambar]

Posted by GilyAnn
I can’t remember who it was that said that while Harry finds Hermione pretty and I do agree that he does. He is not attracted to her. Attraction will require something else that so far Harry has not shown the slighlest hint of having for Hermione. I agree with that.
xxxxx
Hermione is one of Harry's two best friends and has been for five years so he must find her personality attractive. He likes being around her. At the Yule Ball he noticed that she was pretty which means he thought her physically attractive. So logically he finds her personality and looks attractive. So logically he finds her attractive.

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk- I think you've made a glaring mistake, if you mind me saying so. No offence meant, just pointing it out. the veritaserum was obviously slipped in when Umbridge tried to make Harry drink something- you remember the tea? Then she asked about Dumbledore and Sirius. It was then she "used" the veritaserum.

Do you see?

Signing out

Avada

[GilyAnn]

Umbridge has the Draught of Peace (fake Vertiaserum) and the box of eggs. Not being sure which one is Harry’s she puts the potion into all the eggs (this explains what happened to all the potion). Harry eats the egg and fells better. Umbridge’s plan suffers a setback because Ginny gives Harry his egg in the library and Harry and Ginny are chased out by Madam Pince. So Umbridge is unable to question Harry at that point and has lost her chance at this plan.

I think this was discuss in the last thread. And I gave out my opinion that if this was a complot we would have had Umbridge around. We would have some kind of knowledge about that this was going on.

Attraction requires more than finding a girl pretty. Harry has shown over and over the chapters his annoyance and he avoids Hermione's attitudes towards him.

Quote:
trying to better himself so that he doesn't lose her high regard,

I saw this as clearly Harry avoiding another telling off.

Quote:
by the fact that he treats her with the utmost respect in his private thoughts even though he is a total prat [well, understandably and all]

Respect? Hermione was practicly afraid of Harry in this book.

Quote:
that he holds Hermione in very high regard and finds her personality and her character attractive, that is interesting and pleasing to him and having the ability to attract Harry -- this is evidenced per canon, as he does spend basically all his spare non-study or quiddich time with her and that, by choice.

Ok so then since Hermione spends her time with Ron also that also means that she is attracted to Ron. It was her choice to spend the summer on his house. It's her choice to sit with him and do homework and wait for Harry. All those things according to this are romantic? Right? In Hermione choosing to be with Ron it means that she is attracted to him according to this.

Gily Ann

[Ecthelion]

First off, great posts today by Mar Dhea, Evaluna, Hawk, and a special thanks to Earendil for responding to Mutant's posts a way back, they must have taken a long time!

Ok, my thoughts on the Hermione is Harry's motherly figure....

Alright, I can see where one can get this idea, and it is rather hard to explain. From Harry's point of view, there is no doubt that he does not view Hermione as a motherly type figure, Mar and Evaluna have taken care of that quite nicely. However, what about from Hermione's perspective? A while back, I had a post that specified Ron's view of Harry....well Hermione's is kind of like it yet on a smaller scale. Remember, she is quite a powerful witch herself and can readily match herself up to Harry with a combination of her wits and raw power. So she can almost see herself as an equal. This often gives her the incentive and motivation to say the things she says to Harry.

Harry is a person who is fraught with danger and is constantly in so. Hermione, being his best friend, sees it as a responsibility of hers to see him through it, and simotaniously adopts the motherly type of accusations we are so used to seeing from her. But this, by no means, says that she sees herself as a motherly figure. It's just that the way she reprimends Harry is obscurely related to those of Mrs. Weasley. Yet, there is a definable difference from Hermione's "motherly" actions and an actual mothers which was so eloquently said by Evaluna:

H/Hr folk say Hermione's tears, her concern, her ability to confront Harry even at his most intimidating, all come naturally from Hermione's deep emotion [perhaps even her love] toward Harry. We are not talking motherly love here, just so we're clear!

And Gilyann:

I can’t remember who it was that said that while Harry finds Hermione pretty and I do agree that he does. He is not attracted to her. Attraction will require something else that so far Harry has not shown the slighlest hint of having for Hermione. I agree with that.

Hermione is one of Harry's two best friends and has been for five years so he must find her personality attractive. He likes being around her. At the Yule Ball he noticed that she was pretty which means he thought her physically attractive. So logically he finds her personality and looks attractive. So logically he finds her attractive.

I agree with Sirius here, subconsciencesly, he does find her attractive, both in personality and physical aspects. All he (and we) need is for him to realize this, and maybe something will happen!

[evaluna]

GilyAnn, I think others [as well as I] have mentioned a few posts back that these instances you mention involve situations when Harry was not able to be present [stuck at Privet Drive, doing detention, and so forth]. And there's nothing in canon to indicate that any of that time together for Hr/R was time "together".
Cheers!

Hawk: interesting theory re: veritaserum! It could definitely fit.

AK: not necessarily -- IF she followed Snape's instruction AND only used 3 drops in Harry's tea, then she would've had plenty remaining for use on the eggs. Hence the use of the whole bottle, which might have considerably watered down the tea even if tasteless & colorless, yeah?

Edit: OR do you think possibly Mrs Weasley &/or twins or Ginny might have put a cheering charm or calming potion in Harry's batch? And perhaps that's why? Same end result but less devious? I must have missed these arguments from the first thread but it is strange the description of Harry's almost drugged state. A clue, it seems, I agree with Hawk, but I just can't quite wrap around all of it...


BTW did anyone except Hawk & Mad Eye consider my theory? I'm still waiting for Mad Eye's commentary (and anyone else's ;) )

[GilyAnn]

Originally posted by evaluna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474329#post474329))
GilyAnn, I think others [as well as I] have mentioned a few posts back that these instances you mention involve situations when Harry was not able to be present [stuck at Privet Drive, doing detention, and so forth]. And there's nothing in canon to indicate that any of that time together for Hr/R was time "together".
Cheers!


Well mainly becuause H/Hr shippers refuse to see the time that R/Hr do spend toguether. Just because you don't see it. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The time that they spend toguether is out of their own free will. Both of them. It's all over the book, that is quite clear. If anything R/Hr are clearly a separate entity from Harry. That was clear in this book and I'm not a even a shipper of that couple.

Gily Ann

[Sarmi]

Hey guys! Great posts!!!! A round of :clappy: for everyone!

evaluna - You might not want to double post, it's frowned on here. If you need to add something to your post, just click the edit button on the lower right hand side of the post. If you want to reply to a poster using the quotes, then click the quote button. If you need any other help, just let me know!




by the fact that he treats her with the utmost respect in his private thoughts even though he is a total prat [well, understandably and all]


Respect? Hermione was practicly afraid of Harry in this book.


Gily, I don't disagree that Hermione was frightened of Harry. Who wouldn't be with someone in their face yelling at them. However, granted she was frightened, but she still had the guts to say what needed to be said.

Sarmi

[evaluna]

GilyAnn, Sorry don't want to offend but no frankly I don't see it. Just a quick note, and I believe many others have hit on it already. There may be lots of stuff going on offstage -- or there may be nothing. Outside what can reasonably be inferred directly from canon, it's just speculation what might be happening when Harry's not around at some point to see it or if Harry isn't told about it. We do know Ron and Hermione have Prefect duties offstage because we're told. We know they have discussed Harry because one or the other tells him. We know they were in No. 12 cleaning and writing Harry vague letters. But that's all, to my knowledge. Of course JKR can pull anything she likes out of the hat but that much is anyone's guess.
Cheers!

Sarmi: thanks it was a total oversight re:doublepost. I'm just a bit sleep deprived...sorry!!!

[Sarmi]

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474365#post474365))
Well mainly becuause H/Hr shippers refuse to see the time that R/Hr do spend toguether. Just because you don't see it. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The time that they spend toguether is out of their own free will. Both of them. It's all over the book, that is quite clear. If anything R/Hr are clearly a separate entity from Harry. That was clear in this book and I'm not a even a shipper of that couple.


Gily, I do see R/Hr, but it's only R---->Hr. AND only in the interactions that we do see.

I agree with Evaluna, we know very little of what goes on with Ron & Hermione offstage. So we can't speculate too much on what happens offstage if the interaction that we do see doesn't show a mutal attraction. I do hope I explained myself clearly????

Sarmi

PS - Evaluna, no problem just like to help out the newbies.

[Earendil]

Thanks for reminding me, 00evaluna, your 6th step theory was certainly interesting. I have my own theories on Ron's possible death, but with all the other conflicting evidence, it's hard to be certain who among the trio will kick it eventually. You brought up an interesting point about Ron falling at Harry's feet on the way to Hermione--interesting indeed. :whistle:

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Attraction requires more than finding a girl pretty. Harry has shown over and over the chapters his annoyance and he avoids Hermione's attitudes towards him.

If he's so annoyed by Hermione and is always trying to avoid her presence, why does he still consider her to be one of his best friends?

There has to be at least something good that's holding these two together, the same way there is something that's holding Ron and Hermione together. I believe that both R/Hr and H/Hr have beautiful friendships. While Hermione may profoundly get on both Harry's and Ron's nerves, the three of them remain friends. Why, if Harry is so irritated by her, does he still seek her advice and admire her abilities? There are good points and bad points to their friendship.

However, what would it take for him to be attracted to her? I think the foundation is already there: he appreciates her talents, enjoys her company (every so often, yes), and recognizes the strength of their friendship. Plus, we know that he doesn't think she's a troll. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he thinks she's pretty ("I don't think you're ugly" doesn't always equate to "You're pretty" in my book), but I'm not even worried about this point at all. Even if he did think she was a troll I would still ship H/Hr because I believe that their interactions show how compatible their characters are, and that if Harry does indeed realize he has feelings for Hermione, he will more attracted to her personality and her behavior than anything else.

I saw this as clearly Harry avoiding another telling off.

This makes sense in the incident of Harry not wanting to get T's in all his OWLs, but it doesn't apply to the Prefect scene. He was clearly expressing feelings of humiliation, and couldn't even look her in the eye. Why is his reaction to Hermione so strong in this incident? She can't possibly tell him off for not being made a Prefect.

Regarding Hermione mothering Harry:

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Harry is a big boy now. He doesn't need a mother, he needs a partner a companion. Harry doesn't need to be told, watch and taken care like a child.

Harry needs a partner who will look out for him, give him advice when he's about to do something idiotic, point out the possible consequences of reckless action, help him when he needs help, and--most importantly--put his safety above everything else. What is the use of a partner who will go along with what he does, even if what he does is stupid and dangerous, without even bothering to question the possible ramifications? This type of partner would be lots of fun, but Harry probably wouldn't survive long enough to enjoy her. Hermione doesn't act like a mother to him; she acts like a concerned friend. The difference is that she's the only one of his friends who is able to point out the cons of a situation rather than focusing on the immediate satisfaction of an adventure or of cheering up an angsty teenager.

Is not a wife or a girlfriend responsability to watch over the man. This isn't the flinstones era. This is 2003 men have their own mind and choose their own destiny. We are individuals not slave of the ones we love.

Very true, and I like the way you stated this. However, I do believe that it is a friend and/or girlfriend's responsibility to consider her partner's safety when said safety is in question; to essentially watch his back. This is not the only thing she should do, by any means, but I simply cannot stand the idea of a partner only being there for support and encouragement and fun rather than for the essential part that makes a human relationship: care and concern. Harry has shown that he is a reckless and impetuous young thing, and he wouldn't get very far without someone to tell him right from wrong, logic from impulse, common sense from recklessness. Hermione's methods may be questionable, but at least she is the only one who has provided a voice of reason for Harry, and I believe that this is an important quality to have in a partner.

Well mainly becuause H/Hr shippers refuse to see the time that R/Hr do spend toguether. Just because you don't see it. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The time that they spend toguether is out of their own free will. Both of them. It's all over the book, that is quite clear. If anything R/Hr are clearly a separate entity from Harry. That was clear in this book and I'm not a even a shipper of that couple.

I see that Ron and Hermione spend time together, have fun together, and overall have a beautifully wonderful friendship. I also see that JKR has gone to some lengths to show Harry and Hermione together without Ron in two very significant scenes in OotP that quite truthfully did not require Hermione for any reason other than to illustrate a point. Another thing I see is that Ron and Hermione had some of their own alone time in OotP and there wasn't any evidence to speak of that their relationship was developing into a solid and strong romance.

Anyway, back-slaps all around for some excellent posts today. Thanks to Ture, Mike, Hawk, evaluna, and Ec for complimenting my somewhat lengthy replies. Looking forward to a response from Mutant to my response to his/her response...aggh. :D

EDIT: Haven't seen you around much lately, Sarmi; nice to see you back and posting. :)

[Perdita]

Originally posted by evaluna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=472269#post472269))
BTW, I just noticed something that I can't believe I didn't see before, as I think I should have noticed. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share with those who more regularly do detailed textual analysis:

In Chapter 17 "Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four", Harry and Ron see the post in the common room banning all unauthorised student organisations. As Ron makes his way up the stairwell to the girls' dormitory to tell Hermione, the following occurs: <edited for brevity>


Evaluna,

I think you’re onto something. I’ve heard of this from one other person, so I think that means that this could be a real clue. People can say what they want, that it’s meaningless that the 6th step was chosen, but to me, JKR must have chosen that number for a reason that involves R/Hr romance. Remember why this safety barrier was designed in the first place (I mean metaphorically).

I don’t know if it will involve Harry directly, but it could just be that Ron will find out that Hermione doesn’t reciprocate his feelings at last.

-----
Great posts, shipmates and non-shipmates, especially Earendil. :clappy: :clappy: :clappy:

[Sarmi]

Yes, great posts everyone! :clappy:

Earendil, thanks for the welcome back. I know I haven't been around, but I have been reading and keeping up-to-date.

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474426#post474426))
I think you’re onto something. I’ve heard of this from one other person, so I think that means that this could be a real clue. People can say what they want, that it’s meaningless that the 6th step was chosen, but to me, JKR must have chosen that number for a reason that involves R/Hr romance. Remember why this safety barrier was designed in the first place (I mean metaphorically).

I don’t know if it will involve Harry directly, but it could just be that Ron will find out that Hermione doesn’t reciprocate his feelings at last.


I concurr, I have noticed this as well. Why would JKR pick the 6th step, why not another number?

Which brings me to something Ron predicted in PoA and again in GoF.

"Trampled by a rampaging hippogriff"

We all know that hippogriff's represent love. Well, Ron is going to get trampled by rampaging love. Love isn't going to stop and take time to consider his feelings. Who rode the hippogriff? Harry and Hermione. It seems like Harry & Hermione may not consider his feelings when they do fall in love.

We all know that Ron's predictions have come true, and especially so when he makes a joke. So, only time will tell when this prediction does come true.

Again, great posts everyone! :clappy:

Sarmi

[Ecthelion]

I concurr, I have noticed this as well. Why would JKR pick the 6th step, why not another number?
Which brings me to something Ron predicted in PoA and again in GoF.

"Trampled by a rampaging hippogriff"

We all know that hippogriff's represent love. Well, Ron is going to get trampled by rampaging love. Love isn't going to stop and take time to consider his feelings. Who rode the hippogriff? Harry and Hermione. It seems like Harry & Hermione may not consider his feelings when they do fall in love.


Evaluna, yes I have considered the "sixth" step theory up to the "girls" dormitory and really like it. And with the addition of Sarmi's theory above, it makes it really interesting!

We all know that Ron's predictions have come true, and especially so when he makes a joke. So, only time will tell when this prediction does come true.

As long as the thing he saw in the mirror of the erised comes true with him being head boy! That's being saved for Harry!

[Sarmi]

Originally posted by Ecthelion (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474477#post474477))
As long as the thing he saw in the mirror of the erised [doesn't] come true with him being head boy! That's being saved for Harry!


Yeah, I know. Ron becoming prefect was very forced. JKR did that for a reason and hopefully we'll know the reason in Book 6.

Also, about the 6th thing. In GoF, Neville melted his 6th cauldron in Snape's Potions class (Chapter 14, page 209, US Version). Does anyone know what a cauldron represents? I don't know if it has anything to do with the Love Thread, just throwing it out.

Sarmi

[Hawk 92]

Hawk- I think you've made a glaring mistake, if you mind me saying so. No offence meant, just pointing it out. the veritaserum was obviously slipped in when Umbridge tried to make Harry drink something- you remember the tea? Then she asked about Dumbledore and Sirius. It was then she "used" the veritaserum.

Sorry AK but no I didn't make an glaring mistake. If you analyze this you will find that its a theory and nothing more at this point. In short it can not be proved or disproved given the information that we have at this point.

I'm drawing attention to a couple of things in this moment

1)The Chocolate. Why is this necessary if the purpose is to create a H/G moment?
2)The fact that the box was in the hands of Umbridge.
3)Unbridge had (what she believed to be) Vertiserum. And this is established before the box of chocolate arrived.

Now I admit its a theory and speculation but you will notice that it is based on text with nothing twisted or omitted.

Cheers!

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by Sarmi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474469#post474469))
Why would JKR pick the 6th step, why not another number?

In some forms of numerology, six is seen as a representation of the quest to achieve perfection. Hence, Ron's inability to make it up the steps would mean his development hasn't reached the point where he'd be worthy of entrance into Hermione's inner sanctum. It doesn't signify he'll never be able to; he's just not there yet.

Assuming, of course, that a step isn't just a step. ;)

[Ecthelion]

Numerologically the number Six symbolisms the principle of nurturing, caring, and harmony.

Ok, I got that off a sort of intimitading and rather untrusty website found HERE (http://www.hitentertainment.com/barney/index3.asp) :D Sorry, I kind of needed a little humour...it's getting late...the website can actually be found HERE (http://www.ladystar11.com/newsletter/Virgo00N.htm).

Ok, this can be interpretted in many ways. One, Ron will not reach the point of being cared and being in Harmony because he dies or is denied the partnership of Hermione or girls in general for some reason or another. And another way is more or less the kind in which Rowena pointed out, he hasn't developed yet to get to that point in which he would be cared and harmonized by Hermione or girls in general....

Assuming, of course, that a step isn't just a step ;).
Point taken :)

A rather useless post if I do say so myself, but it was sort of interesting to think about....

[Hawk 92]

Now to Mutant for Hire's huge post.

To be honest most of it is speculation and as such cannot be proven or disproven at this point. So since all are allowed to speculate and all speculation should be given equal validity until proven or disproven I'll simply comment on the parts that can be debated. Quotes from the original post are in bold

My belief is that JKR laid the first cornerstone for a Harry/Ginny relationship in book five, with the scene in the library. Actually, she laid the first stone when Ginny reminded Harry she was an expert on being possessed by Voldemort, but I tend to see the library scene as more significant. Let us review what happened in detail.

H/Hr has had several stones laid in all of the books. From PS/SS to OotP. But to keep it short lets just use 2. The one where Harry tells Hermione about seeing his father in POA and when Harry tells Hermione that his life is far from fun in Gof.

She told him not to do it. She didn't even bother to ask why he wanted to contact Sirius, she just told him not to do it and didn't even bother to try to help him find a safe way to contact Sirius (such as going to Dumbledore or McGonagall).

What page is this on? And as we could have different books UK vs US so to speak if you could include the chapter as well it is appreciated.

This time, with Dumbledore out of the picture, Umbridge in charge and the situation even more serious, he knew that she would not have any fewer objections. And given the way that Hermione tended to tell him what to do and being afraid she'd criticize him for even wanting to talk to Sirius, as well as possibly another comment about his unreliability and living through Harry. Is it any wonder he didn't bother to confide in her? He was likely also afraid if he told Ron, Ron would tell Hermione. Ron had already been leaking Harry's nightmares to Hermione.

Do you honestly think that Harry would tell anyone what he saw in the Pensive? I don't think he would tell Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny or anyone. Why? It is painful yes but it would be humilating to Snape. And Harry knows what it means to be humilated. And how could he talk to Hermionr or Ron or anyone else about this. They didn't know his father. They weren't there to be able to tell Harry what had lead up to this point. And let me ask you again where does Hermione criticise Harry for wanting to speak to Sirius in the book? You keep using that where is that from?

She didn't ask why, and I think that she actually understood in rough terms why Harry needed to talk to his godfather. She knew how much Sirius meant to Harry and given that Harry was acting so depressed, he likely wanted to talk to his godfather about some personal problem, whatever was making him depressed. Ginny wanted Harry to cheer up and must have figured that talking to Sirius would help and so she offered to assist him

Same question as before, Where in the text do you draw the conclusion that Hermione doesn't think that Sirius is important to Harry? Seems kind of contradictory given the fact that when they could communicate with Sirius Hermione had no qualms. So does Hermione care about what Sirius means to Harry? Apparently so if she doesn't want him to end up back in Azkaban. Or recieve the dementors kiss. What would that do to Harry?

The rest is specualtion and I'll just disagree.

Cheers!

[Perdita]

:rotfl: @ Ecthelion

Thanks for those links, yes, both of them. A good laugh is always appreciated. ;) The real webpage contained so much info I find it hard to make sense of any of it now. I only noticed that the qualities described about a person of the number 6 is very much like it was describing Hermione.

And I like how all 3 interpretations by evaluna, Sarmi and Rowena Ravenclaw make total sense. This is another example that shows how slippery interpretation is.

Each person sees different things, and we might not all agree that we see the same things, but it's important that we recognize this quality in JKR's writing. I find it tiresome to read about how one thing or another is so clear to some readers, and they conclude that it must be so, refusing to see any evidence that points to another possibility. Nothing can be said as being definitive until the end of the series. We're all merely making theories and trying to have fun at it, right? ;)

*****
Great posts, Hawk. I think your theory is highly plausible. It would explain why Umbridge managed to use up all of the potion that Snape gave her.

[GilyAnn]

Gily, I do see R/Hr, but it's only R---->Hr. AND only in the interactions that we do see.

I don’t even like the pair and I do see that the attraction and the ‘tension’ is on both sides not R--> Hr it goes Hr--> R.

There has to be at least something good that's holding these two together, the same way there is something that's holding Ron and Hermione together. I believe that both R/Hr and H/Hr have beautiful friendships. While Hermione may profoundly get on both Harry's and Ron's nerves, the three of them remain friends. Why, if Harry is so irritated by her, does he still seek her advice and admire her abilities? There are good points and bad points to their friendship.


You said they are friends but that doesn’t mean that a friend can’t irritate you. Hermione does that often and if she doesn’t change things will go the wrong way between them.

This makes sense in the incident of Harry not wanting to get T's in all his OWLs, but it doesn't apply to the Prefect scene. He was clearly expressing feelings of humiliation, and couldn't even look her in the eye. Why is his reaction to Hermione so strong in this incident? She can't possibly tell him off for not being made a Prefect.

Well let’s see Hermione just made a huge scene of the prefect thing, because she was excited about her own prefect thing. Everyone thinks that Harry was going to be it. Harry is upset and embarrassed because everybody thought that he was it and he didn’t reach it. So knows he is upset and frustrated, not to mention extremely embarrassed. Why would he want to see Hermione? Why would he want to talk to anybody for that matter?


Harry needs a partner who will look out for him, give him advice when he's about to do something idiotic, point out the possible consequences of reckless action, help him when he needs help, and--most importantly--put his safety above everything else. What is the use of a partner who will go along with what he does, even if what he does is stupid and dangerous, without even bothering to question the possible ramifications? This type of partner would be lots of fun, but Harry probably wouldn't survive long enough to enjoy her. Hermione doesn't act like a mother to him; she acts like a concerned friend. The difference is that she's the only one of his friends who is able to point out the cons of a situation rather than focusing on the immediate satisfaction of an adventure or of cheering up an angsty teenager.

That’s a mother. Harry doesn’t need that he has his own mind for that. He knows what’s right and what’s wrong. Harry is not stupid. The path he chooses it’s his own not the one that someone else picks for him. I want a different partner for Harry not one that has to check on him like a little boy. I want a partner that has a life outside of taking care of Harry. Harry will always be in danger. He is a big boy now and he doesn’t need people telling him what to do he needs and advice and let him learn and live his own live.


I do believe that it is a friend and/or girlfriend's responsibility to consider her partner's safety when said safety is in question; to essentially watch his back. This is not the only thing she should do, by any means, but I simply cannot stand the idea of a partner only being there for support and encouragement and fun rather than for the essential part that makes a human relationship: care and concern. Harry has shown that he is a reckless and impetuous young thing, and he wouldn't get very far without someone to tell him right from wrong, logic from impulse, common sense from recklessness. Hermione's methods may be questionable, but at least she is the only one who has provided a voice of reason for Harry, and I believe that this is an important quality to have in a partner.

All thru the book I saw (I believe that Mutant made a post on that as I’m tired and don’t’ want to write more Ex.) how Hermione failed to reach Harry. If anything she got him to anger him more and in the end he ended up doing whatever he wanted. I do believe Ginny care and I do believe that she knows when something is dangerous and shouldn’t be done and when something is dangerous but has to be done anyway (gof, OoP).

I see that Ron and Hermione spend time together, have fun together, and overall have a beautifully wonderful friendship. I also see that JKR has gone to some lengths to show Harry and Hermione together without Ron in two very significant scenes in OotP that quite truthfully did not require Hermione for any reason other than to illustrate a point.

Off course it had a purpose! We are on book 5 by now everyone spots why does JKR does those things. And some of it had nothing to do with romance IMHO.

1)The Chocolate. Why is this necessary if the purpose is to create a H/G moment?

I’ll take a shoot at that because Chocolate has wonderful properties. I have to leave some out but overall. Chocolate is known for being everything from an anti-depressant to an aphro*****. In moderate doses helps on heart diseases, reduces a form of oxidation. It’s consider the ‘feel good’ food and Mesoamerican civilizations consider it to be a drink that builds up resistance and fights fatigue. So overall Chocolate has wonderful properties. Why not link Ginny to a food so incredibly good!

BTW I don't see Harry reaching head boy. JKR was very doubtfull when the prefect or the head boy thing and she seemed very against the idea. So I'm not expecting Harry to be Head boy. Harry has other things.

Gily Ann

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Hawk 92 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474600#post474600))
What page is this on? And as we could have different books UK vs US so to speak if you could include the chapter as well it is appreciated.

End of chapter thirteen. Check my huge post where I give chapter references.

Do you honestly think that Harry would tell anyone what he saw in the Pensive? I don't think he would tell Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny or anyone. Why? It is painful yes but it would be humilating to Snape. And Harry knows what it means to be humilated. And how could he talk to Hermionr or Ron or anyone else about this. They didn't know his father. They weren't there to be able to tell Harry what had lead up to this point. And let me ask you again where does Hermione criticise Harry for wanting to speak to Sirius in the book? You keep using that where is that from?

End of chapter thirteen, the first time he wants to do it. And I never said she criticized him, she told him not to do it. And the second time, when Ginny arranges for the Fred/George diversion, Hermione is constantly telling Harry not to go through with it.

[Same question as before, Where in the text do you draw the conclusion that Hermione doesn't think that Sirius is important to Harry? Seems kind of contradictory given the fact that when they could communicate with Sirius Hermione had no qualms. So does Hermione care about what Sirius means to Harry? Apparently so if she doesn't want him to end up back in Azkaban. Or recieve the dementors kiss. What would that do to Harry?

I think she understands that Sirius is important to Harry, but I also think that she's not too happy about how Harry keeps turning to Sirius for advice. She clearly criticizes Sirus' judgement on two occasions, and I suspect that's part of the reason that its important for Harry to be able to talk to Sirius.

[evaluna]

Perdita, I agree wholeheartedly that it's always important to recognise the logic or the possibility of the other side's theory, even whilst acknowledging that we may prefer one side or the other or even if we disagree. I know I myself have said many times that anything is possible and have offered points up for the other side where I thought they were strongest, right from the beginning on the oldest posts. Just to clarify I noted that you bolded some text where you said it's tiresome that some feel there position is so clear and don't allow for the other position. I wasn't sure if you were referring to my earlier post where I said I felt I'd stated my point clearly. It was in no way intended to mean that my opinion or theory was clearly the only correct one.


If not intended in part toward me then please disregard, thanks!

See my own quote below:
"I think what I'm saying is clear and I've already addressed the other points [re: where you say Hermione is mothering and annoying] in my immediate prior post so I'll just leave it at that."

I try extremely hard to be courteous, always, and am rather horrified to think anyone might assume otherwise, hence my post to clarify if the message was in part intended my way. Plus who wants to be tiresome, yeah? Sounds pretty bad. And I've only been here 2 weeks ye gads!
Cheers!

PS: THANKS to all who commented on and added to/varied the Ron 6th Step Theory! MEM we're missing your post you promised!

[haycheng]

Hi, Mutant of Hire always enjoy your post ever i dont agree.
Yes, Harry is definely bother by it and decide to do it anyways. However, it is due to Hermione that he decides to write in code. Hermione does have influence on him. It is a low moment for H/Hr ship but it is not a complete lost cause for Hermione. Also hermione has not critize Sirus judgement in this case. She merely says Moody tell them to be careful. She has not asked him to not to write at all. (US version, pg 278, Right?)

It is not only Hermione critize Sirus's judgement(which happen later after pg 278). Ever Harry himself question Sirus judgement. He asked himself do he wants to be as reckless as his dad, which is what Sirus expects. Harry simply ignore his own logic as well as Hermione's logic.

Have anyone notice that Hermione only concern when Harry put himself in line. In the recent year, Hermione only get upset and bother Harry when harry's life is in danger. she shows what a true friend is. Some poeple require others to hit them with stone to see reason, harry seem one of them.

PS: To the HMS Harmony I would want to join the 00division if I can remain my right to defense the H/G ship.

[Perdita]

Evaluna,

my comment wasn't directed at you. ;) I apologize if it came accross that way and offended you. *hug*

[dantares]

I seriously don't think Hermione will go with either Harry or Ron. At the Royal Hall event, someone asked JKR what does she think of the rumours (on pairings) posted on the internet. And she said most aren't even close though some got some parts of it. It lead me to think the those that are frequently talk about (HH, HR) are not going to happen.

[evaluna]

Perdita *hug* of relief/Thanks!

Dantares welcome!!! Lots to read, yeah? & there's a prior thread as well on topic. BTW though I don't think JKR will tell us even if we were to somehow nail it on the money ;) She's just that way and loves to keep us guessing...

[Hawk 92]

Mutant

End of chapter thirteen. Check my huge post where I give chapter references.

Mine reads

Harry
"I think I'll write to Sirius about it, see what he thinks----"
"Harry, you can't put something like that in a letter!" said Hermione, looking alarmed. "Don't you remember, Moody told us to be careful what we put in writing! We can't guarantee owls aren't being intercepted anymore!"

Now where does it say that Harry shouldn't talk to Sirius? Hermione reminds him that the letters can be intercepted and she gives a reasonable explanation for her saying not to put it in a letter. And the text says You can't put that in a letter. Not don't talk to Sirius about it.

End of chapter thirteen, the first time he wants to do it. And I never said she criticized him, she told him not to do it. And the second time, when Ginny arranges for the Fred/George diversion, Hermione is constantly telling Harry not to go through with it.

Not because she doesn't want Harry to speak to Sirius but because she knows that Umbridge is on to them. That Umbridge is trying to get Harry expelled and Sirius turned over to the Dementors. Hermione doesn't want Harry expelled and she doesn't want to see Sirius get the dementors kiss. She knows how important Sirius is to Harry and she doesn't want Harry to have to go through that pain. She is concerned for both Harry and Sirius and doesn' t want bad things to happen to either one of them. But this is a negative. And I still didn't see her tell Harry not to talk to Sirius.

I think she understands that Sirius is important to Harry, but I also think that she's not too happy about how Harry keeps turning to Sirius for advice. She clearly criticizes Sirus' judgement on two occasions, and I suspect that's part of the reason that its important for Harry to be able to talk to Sirius.

And yet ever since Gof she has encouraged Harry to contact Sirius when he could. Now that it's a danger to both of them and she is worried for both of them its bad, and she's unhappy for this. Show me where she's unhappy because Harry turns to Sirius for advice?

Cheers!

[Perdita]

:welcome: dantares.

Good point you brought up. Based on OOTP alone, I think that N/Hr, R/L, N/G and H/L are all possible.

The thing with JKR quotes is that they are very very vague. And like evaluna said, JKR could be deliberately misleading us in her interview comments. If I were her, I wouldn't want to give away my plotlines before they're written. As it stands, love could be a big part of the final battle with Voledmort, so I would expect that this is one topic that JKR would like to keep mysterious until she has released book 7.

-----
Glad i was able to clear that up so quickly, evaluna. :)

-----
haycheng! You want to join 00 Division? :coolblue: Good luck with your application. 00 is a very mysterious department. Not many know of what goes on behind the doors besides the 00 agents. ;)

[GryffindorGal]

Perdita

The thing with JKR quotes is that they are very very vague. And like evaluna said, JKR could be deliberately misleading us in her interview comments. If I were her, I wouldn't want to give away my plotlines before they're written. As it stands, love could be a big part of the final battle with Voledmort, so I would expect that this is one topic that JKR would like to keep mysterious until she has released book 7.


In an interview JKR was once called onthe fact that she didnt; quite answer the interviewer's question and she replied:"Yeah, well, you know, you’ve got to sometimes dodge these things."

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html (http://)

[FlyingPhoenix]

My post gos back to this little misunderstanding about my own post.

I do it now more exactly this nice scene about Sirius in Voldis hands.


Out of the fire:
Ron and Hermione, said a voice in his head.

Says Harry need to find his two best friends as fast as possible. Harry didn`t think if this dream was real or not. He didn´t wasted any time to think about it. Just how old Voldi boy wanted it.

He was running again , pushing students out of the way, oblivious to their angry protest. He sprinted back down two floors and was at top of the marble staircase when he saw them hurrying toward them. "Harry!" said Hermione at once, looking very frightened "What happened?Are you all right? Are you ill?"

Still Harry don't think he just act till he find his two best friends. Now Hermiones reaction first impression she is very frightened. This say she is scary. But why? Harry did fall from the chair screaming like mad. Something what Hermione didn't see till this day by Harry. Even she see him that he can stand on his own feet and that he is breathing fast from running she still ask if he is all right?! In this scene that is how I do interpret it is like that Hermione shows her worry which she had since the day Dumbledore is away from Hogwarts and did built up more and more by everyday. By everything did happen since this day at Hogwarts. They are alone and Harry did faint like in GoF and at this time was it the badest sign what could happen. She might be very aware at this moment that they are really alone.

"Where have you been?" demanded Ron

Rons reaction is rather normal without that much emotion like Hermione. Because Ron know this by Harry already and don't think that much about it. For me dos it seems like that. Even his question isn't that smart. I mean where could someone been if he did faint in his exame? Just guessing in the libarry or Griffindor Tower or maybe on a place where ill people go?! That shows me Ron didn't think about this situation.

"Voldemort'sgot Sirius."
"What?"
"How d'you- ?"
"Saw it. Just now. When I fell asleep in the exam."
"But - but where? How?" said Hermione, whose face was white.


Second impression Hermiones reaction again her face is white. That is an impression of shock if I get this right. So she have to believe Harry at this moment or her highest or unpleasent worry comes true. Which she fears the most that Harry might get such a dream which is a trap.

"I dunno how," said Harry. "But I know exactly where. There's a room in the DoM full of shelves covered in these little glass balls and they're at the end of row ninety-seven...he`s trying to use Sirius to get whatever he wants from in there...he's torturing him...says he'll end by killing him!"
Harry found his voice was shaking, as were his knees. He moved over to a desk and sat down on it, trying to master himself.

The interest part is how little Harry discribe what really to Sirius is happening. Harry did more discribe how the room looks where the phropecy lies. As he gots to the part about Sirius he sound unsure and not really knowing what he is saying at this point. More interest that both Ron and Hermione don't react. Harry has even time to recognise that his knees and his voice is shaking and that he gos slowly to a desk and sit on it. Still no reaction.

"How're we going to get there?" he asked them.
There was a moment's silence. Then Ron said "G-get, there?"
"Get to the DoM, so we can rescue Sirius!"
Harry said loudly.
"But - Harry..." said Ron weakly.
"What? WHat?" said Harry.
He could not understand why they were both gaping at him as though he was asking them something unreasonable.

Interest again that Harry don't give Ron a chance to speak why he say but. The whole time Hermione is quiet don't say a word since Harry has ended with his explaination. You can nearly loud hear her thinking about all this stuff. How the last weeks and months running through her head and how this what Harry just said runs through her head. In the whole Time Harry isn't thinking not since he had this dream in his exam. He take it for what it is. Thats what Hermione get as Harry sit there on the desk and act as if both didn't understand what he just had said.

"Harry," said Hermione in a rather frightened voice. "er...how...how did Voldemort get into the MoM without anybody realising he was there?"
"How do I know?" bellowed Harry. "The question is how we're going to get in there!"
"But...Harry, think about this," said Hermione, taking a step towards him, "it'ts five o'clock in this afternoon...the MoM must be full of workers...how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry...they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world... you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?"
" I dunno, Voldemort used an Invisibility Cloak or something!" Harry shouted. "Anyway, the DoM has always completely empty whenever I've been -"
"You've never been there, Harry," said Hermione quietly "You've dreamed about the place, thats all."
"They're not normal dreams" Harry shouted in her face, standing up and taking a step closer to her in turn. He wanted to shake her. "How d'you explain Ron's dad then, what was all that about, how come I knew what had happened to him?"

Again a whole passage where Ron seems not to be there. Not once did Ron ask questions like Hermione did. Till to this point Hermione sounds symphatic and even kinda warm if you ask me. Anyway in that part is not once a sign that she sounds cruel. I hope we see it alike. To every question Hermione ask Harry. He can only say "I dunno!" thats all. He didn't think about it thats why he want shake her. He want that she stop to think about this things and run with him to the DoM without a question. Without a doubt. Its again like fire and water this arguement they have. Hermione is more quiet and take a step to him because of symphatic. Harry is loud and take a step to her because he want that she stop to think about it. Its even interest how Hermione start to speak its kinda searching after words and to sound gentle and not harsh. To bring him on her side of thinking about this situation. Ron don't has an opinion not in the beginning and not now. He is just standing there and listen what both say and he have to recognise that Hermione has by far the better points though he take Harrys mentioning of Ron's father and is suddendly for Harry.

"He's got a point," said Ron quietly, looking at Hermione.
"But this is just - just so unlikely!" said Hermione desperatly. "Harry, how on earth could Voldemort have got hold of Sirius when he`s been in Grimmauld Place all the time?"
"Sirius might've cracked and just wanted some fresh air," said Ron, sounding worried. "He's been desperate to get out of that house for ages -"
"But why." Hermione persisted, "why on earth would Voldemort want use Sirius to get the weapon, or whatever the thing is?"

Now is Ron, too against Hermione. Harry and Ron do argue in a unreasonable way with Hermione. That say Hermione could write a novel with the best arguements neither of them would listen to her. This means a unbelievable high pressure on her. If we get it straight what she already might think about this whole story or better since Harry had this dream about Mr. Weasley. Since this day Hermione have to know that Harrys dreams can go both ways and that Voldemort has enough power to sent a trap. Its what might have lead her to annoy Harry about this extra lessons with Snape. This are highest fears. Hermione seems to get it that as Ron takes Harrys side that she is losing this arguement and if she losing this arguement that implied that she is losing Harry. Because she has this fear that this dream is a trap in which Harry gonna step. Hermione is desperate and persist at this point. As she said why Sirius to get the weapon? This implied Voldemort want Harry to get the weapon and NOT Sirius. But nobody of them is listening.

"I dunno, there could be loads of reasons!" Harry yelled at her. "Maybe Sirius is just someone Voldemort doesn't care about seeind hurt -"
"You know what, I've just thought of something," said Ron in a hushed voice. "Sirius' brother was a DE, wasn't he? Maybe he told Sirius the secret of how to get the weapon!"
"Yeah - and that's why Dumbledore's been so keen to keep Sirius up all the time!" said Harry.

Now what have we now? Right Ron give his famouse absolute unlogical theory to this arguement. He is practicullary helping Harry to search after any reasons for Voldemorts doing. I mean if you read this don't you think how absurt this sound? I mean Sirius brother was unimportant how in the world should this guy know how to get the weapon and over all why dos Voldi need these weapon now if He could easiely ask 15 or 16 years ago as Sirius's brother was alive. This arguement is nonsense.

"Look, I`m sorry," cried Hermione, "But neither of you is making sense, and we`ve got no proof for any of this, no proof Voldemort and Sirius are even there -"
"Hermione, Harry`s seen them!" said Ron, rounding on her.
"OK," she said, looking frightened yet determined "I've just got to say this-"

How long did Hermione hold this back now? Very long if I look at my post now. This is the very last thing what Hermione want to say. She tried with logic, with why Voldi and Sirius can't be there and she did has a point everytime did she has one. But now after both start with unlogical arguements and as Ron is against Hermione, too. Is it the last thing what Hermione can do to save Harry. To hold him back to run into this trap. She gonna tell Harry now that what she thought by her own. Her fears since the day Harry did dream about Mr. Weasley and much more since Dumbledore is away from Hogwarts.

"You..this isn't a criticim, Harry! But you do..sort of...I mean - don't you think you've got a bit of - a - saving-people thing?" she said.
He glared at her.
"And what't that supposed to mean, a "saving-people thing"?"
"Well...you..." she looked more apprehensive than ever "I mean... last year, for instance...in the lake...during the Tournament...you shouldn't have...I mean, you didn't need to save that little Delacour girl...you got a bit...carried away..."

She is again searching after words so she don't want say it and don't has the right words for to say it at all. Even her first example is out of the Voldemort context so Harry won't hear that he did something wrong in that case. What I mean is that its not easy for Hermione to say that in general and not in a situation like that where she is positive under pressure. But she search after every bit to hold Harry back to run into Voldemorts arms.

A wave of hot, prickly anger swept through Harry's body; how could she remind him of that blunder now?
"I mean, it was great of you and everything," said Hermione quickly, lookink positively petrified at the look on Harrys face. "everyone thought it was wonderful thing to do -"
"That's funny," said Harry through gritted teeth, "because I definitely remember Ron saying I'd wasted time acting the hero...is that what you think this is? You reckon I want to act the hero again?"
"No,no,no!" said Hermione, looking aghast "Thats not what I mean at all!"

This is important, I think. Because there Harry say where he see the different between Ron and Hermione. Ron did think Harry acting the hero and Harry think that Hermione didn't think that from him till this point. That explain Harrys reaction, his anger because he didn't think he would hear this from Hermione.
Thats what H/Hr did say is special by Hermione that she don't see Harry Potter in him and here at this point he say it and act by himself that he do think that about her.

"Well, spit out what you've got to say, because we're wasting time here!" Harry shouted.
"I'm trying to say - Voldemort knows you, Harry! He took Ginny down into the COS to lure you there, its the kind of thing he does, he knows you're the - the sort of person who'd go to Sirius's aid! What if he's just trying to get you into the DoM--?"
"Hermione, it doesen't matter if he's done it to get me there or not - they've taken McGonagall to St.Mungos, there isn't anyone from OotP left at Hogwarts who can tell, and if we don't go, Sirius id dead!"
"But Harry - what if your dream was - was just, a dream?" Harry let out a roar of frustration. Hermione actually stepped back from him, looking alarmed
"You don't get it!" Harry shouted at her, "I´m not having nightmares, I'm not just dreaming! What d'you think all the Occlumency was for, why d'you think Dumbledore wanted me prevented from seeing these things? Because they're REAL, Hermione - Sirius is trapped, I've seen him. Voldemorts got him, and no one else knows, and that means we're the only ones who can save him, and if you don't want to do it, fine, but I'm going, understand? And if I remember rightly, you didn't have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or -" he rounded on Ron "- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk-"
"I never said I had a proble,!" said Ron heatedly.

Harry didn't get it in this scene. What he say is unlogical why should DD stop Harrys dreams if only Harry can see things in his dreams and if only he can see Voldemort? Its a question which answer itself and Harry don't see it. He is so much in this Sirius thing that he don't see it. That say Hermione couldn't hold him back for nothing on earth. But why is this argueing there on this place? Why dos JKR write it if this won't change anything if Hermione is the only one who think right? I tell you its there for book 6. This where Harry get that he should have listen to her. Its again interest that Ron don't say anything even he have to get this question which Harry answer himself wrong. How I said this is important for book 6 thats where Harry get that he can count on Hermione even in such a situation where Hermione is standing on the wall against her two best friends and try to stop them to do this what she think is wrong.

"But Harry, you've just said it," said Hermione fiercely, Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you`d done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -"
"IF YOU THINK I'M JUST GOING TO ACT LIKE I HAVEN'T SEEN- "
"Sirius told you there was nothing more important than you learning to close your mind!"
"WELL,EXPECT HE'D SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT IF HE KNEW WHAT I'D JUST-"

Still Harry don't get it what Hermione mean not at all. Still I don't get what is cruel in that what Hermione says. Just curious.

"Harry, I'm begging you, please!" said Hermione desperatly "Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d-do whatever it takes to try and save him."...."But if this is a trick of Voldemorts, Harry, we've got to check, we've got to."

Begging, a strong word ,or? This part here shows how important this is for Hermione, how important it is to know Harry is save. That he don't get into Voldemorts trap. She is even little bit stuttering that Harry listen to her. You know female intuition I think thats somehow the case here.

"I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch, I don't think you should be in there alone. Lee's already proved the windows a weak spot, sending those Nifflers through it," Even through his anger and impatience, He recogniesed Hermiones offer to accompany him into Umbridges office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty.

Now comes my point. Hermione could have sorted herself with Luna and say to Ginny she go with Harry. But she didn´t do it though its a pretty unpleaseant moment after such a huge with so much emotions and fears dropping arguement to hang around with this guy who yelled at you or with this guy who don't want to listen to you even your greatest fear is to lose him and still he want bring himself into danger. Thats why I said this do friends, this do people who care deeply for someone they stay to this guy even its uncompfartable and even this tension is still there. Hermione didn't sorted herself to Luna to get away from Harry. No she didn't do it because she want show Harry that no matter how much they disagree and argue she will stand by his side. Thats something really huge. If you know how people feel after an arguement they don´t stay togeter they do avoid each other till the tension is faded away.

Now about this Nifflers. Don't nobody think that Ginny has her fingers in this? I mean she could have helped Lee, just a thought.

Now about this post. I´m really sorry thats so long but I needed to show it in context.

[MagicianGirl]

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474739#post474739))


That’s a mother. Harry doesn’t need that he has his own mind for that. He knows what’s right and what’s wrong. Harry is not stupid. The path he chooses it’s his own not the one that someone else picks for him. I want a different partner for Harry not one that has to check on him like a little boy. I want a partner that has a life outside of taking care of Harry. Harry will always be in danger. He is a big boy now and he doesn’t need people telling him what to do he needs and advice and let him learn and live his own live.

Exactly! Hermione tends to mother Harry. He doesn't need someone who always pointing out to him what's right or wrong and nagging him which directions he has to take. Harry should learn that by himself. Sure he needs a voice of reason from time to time but it is his life, it is his decision & Hermione tends to scold him a lot which I think is really annoying. He doesn't need a partner who always question his decision, he needs someone who supports him & understand why sometimes he do what he has to do.

[sone]

Hermione has rarely if ever "scolded" Harry and they certainly do not see each other as parental figures.

[MoF]

:clappy: Excellent post FlyingPhoenix! You prove that even in those situations when Hermione thinks it more important to save Harry rather than support him she is not "steamrolling" over him.

He doesn't need a partner who always question his decision, he needs someone who supports him & understand why sometimes he do what he has to do.

- So Hermione doesn't understand at all why Harry does the things he do? she doesnt support him? I'll just say that i don't understand at all the points that Mutant for Hire brought into this discussion.
To me, theres a difference between supporting your friends and keeping quiet whenever you don't have the guts to confront them when they are on the wrong track. In OotP, it wasn't Hermione who was a bad friend, it was Harry who kept getting frustrted and yelled at his friends (not only Hermione), even though i understand that he was in a difficult situation.
Hermione understood that Harry experienced one of the most difficult times of life, but even so, she tried to be nice to him, but also saw the need to whack some reason into his head. She couldn't do that without defying him, but even when she defied him, she didn't get all stubborn and angry, as Mutant describes it, but she got raher unhappy. It wasn't Hermione who was steamrolling over her friends, it was Harry.

[windy_miller]

Hermione Granger = ame her ginger ron.
(ame as in love...)

I guess using a foreign language to solve an anagram is cheating a bit, so it's probably rubbish.

[haycheng]

We can call Hermoine's action "motherly" or "sisterly". It is our call, everyone has their own opinion about people action.

I want to point out is that Hermione do not consider herself "motherly . She has said many time she respect Harry as equal. One Harry'part, He never says he is trouble by hermione's nagging and ask her to drop it. He always consides her point of view. He never consider Hermione act "motherly" towards him . As long as they do not consider this is mother/son or big sister/young bother relationship, then it is not. Our opinion of their relationship is not important, their opinions is.

Every couple has their own way of life. The only requirement for a relationship is respect, love and get alone well.

[Earendil]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
You said they are friends but that doesn’t mean that a friend can’t irritate you. Hermione does that often and if she doesn’t change things will go the wrong way between them.

Exactly. Friends can irritate each other, as Hermione as irritated both Harry and Ron, but as long as her intentions remain as pure as they have been Harry and Ron will know that she means well through all her nagging and cajoling. If Hermione is as bad as some readers want to make her, I would be at a loss as to how she remains friends with the boys. There is still something that holds them all together, even through their character clashing, and I don't see why Hermione needs to compromise anything about herself to make Ron (or Harry) happy. If she were to get together with either one of them, it would be an utterly negative statement to project for Hermione to have to alter the parts of her character that make her who she is.

Well let’s see Hermione just made a huge scene of the prefect thing, because she was excited about her own prefect thing. Everyone thinks that Harry was going to be it. Harry is upset and embarrassed because everybody thought that he was it and he didn’t reach it. So knows he is upset and frustrated, not to mention extremely embarrassed. Why would he want to see Hermione? Why would he want to talk to anybody for that matter?

That still doesn't equate to Harry trying to avoid another talking-to from Hermione. He is upset and would feel awkward having to talk over the prefect thing with Hermione--but he's not trying to skirt around criticism. Just to reiterate the point, here's my response to GilyAnn's response to evaluna:

Evaluna:
One can also infer by Harry's actions and thoughts -- such as the amount of time Harry spends looking at or thinking about Hermione, trying to better himself so that he doesn't lose her high regard

GilyAnn:
I saw this as clearly Harry avoiding another telling off.

So, how can Harry still be trying to avoid another telling off with the prefect incident? GilyAnn said that he was embarassed and didn't want to talk to anyone at that point, and I agree. However, why put in that brief scene with Harry and Hermione alone in the room? What purpose did it serve other than to show that Harry was unable to meet Hermione's eyes, specifically? He could barely even speak to her normally: why her alone? We got a strong enough impression of his humiliation in the scene with Fred, George, Ron, Hermione, and Mrs. Weasley--so why put in the extra passage with just Hermione?

Originally posted by MagicianGirl
He doesn't need a partner who always question his decision, he needs someone who supports him & understand why sometimes he do what he has to do.

Even when what he "has" to do is irrational, illogical, and dangerous, his partner is supposed to nod and smile mutely. I'm sorry, but Harry actually does need a partner who's not afraid to speak up and inform him of the consequences when he's being stupid. Hermione has shown that she is perfectly capable of understanding when Harry "has" to do something, like check on Sirius before going to the DoM, and she's willing to do whatever it takes to make it happen as long as Harry is able to be reasonable. She is also not about to sit back and take orders like a good little soldier without even questioning Harry's logic.

Great posts, everyone. FP, your analysis of the "Out of the Fire" argument was superb. You hit it right on the head. :clappy:

Attention, 00Hawk! You have another applicant to the 00 Branch by the name of haycheng. Snap to it, agent.

:cool: *cue James Bond theme song*

[evaluna]

Windy:
"Hermione Granger = ame her ginger ron.
(ame as in love...)

I guess using a foreign language to solve an anagram is cheating a bit, so it's probably rubbish."

Hee hee. NO theory is rubbish in my book until it's been thoroughly considered, so fire away and not a bad first shot. Okay just one little thing: let's take Latin, since for Italian, Spanish, Port., etc., the forms will be similar:

Just for singular, per your example:
1st amo - I love
2nd amas - you love
3rd amat - he she loves
[no neuter in Latin languages, so inanimate items are also randomly masc or fem]

'Hermione loves' is 3rd person so the form is 'amat'. I think the locative[?] and masc vocative forms can end in 'e' if memory serves me but these aren't verbs.

Still very interesting idea and it makes me wonder what other phrases might be formed from her name? Others may already know some.
Cheers!

BTW: FP, Earendil, HayCheng, Hawk, Ecthelion, Sone, Perdita, and everyone else: Amazing posts all!

[Daveydee]

Originally posted by evaluna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=475839#post475839))

Still very interesting idea and it makes me wonder what other phrases might be formed from her name? Others may already know some.
Cheers!

Hermione Granger = Ron 'n' me are gehrig

Gehrig as anybody knows is the Snatsgit word for lovers.

[EricaM]

How about,

Hermione Granger = Heroine, Anger Mgr.

:D

Erica

[sone]

LOL.....good one Erica.

[Perdita]

Originally posted by windy_miller (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=475704#post475704))
Hermione Granger = ame her ginger ron.
(ame as in love...)

I guess using a foreign language to solve an anagram is cheating a bit, so it's probably rubbish.


:lol:

I'm guessing this foreign language is French? If that's the case it should be "aim," and not "ame."

That is a funny anagram, "ginger ron?" :lol: Too bad Ron isn't blonde.

:welcome: to the thread, windy_miller.

And :lol: @ EricaM and Earendil

[MoF]

Don't you mean ami, because thats the french word for friend.
Love, i think, is amour, but im really horrible with French, so I might be wrong.

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Sarmi (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=474469#post474469))
I concurr, I have noticed this as well. Why would JKR pick the 6th step, why not another number?

Which brings me to something Ron predicted in PoA and again in GoF.

"Trampled by a rampaging hippogriff"

We all know that hippogriff's represent love. Well, Ron is going to get trampled by rampaging love. Love isn't going to stop and take time to consider his feelings. Who rode the hippogriff? Harry and Hermione. It seems like Harry & Hermione may not consider his feelings when they do fall in love.

We all know that Ron's predictions have come true, and especially so when he makes a joke. So, only time will tell when this prediction does come true.


Sarmi,

I was thinking, there have been several instances in OOTP where the reader is presented with the idea that Ron might die. To build on his own prediction about the hippogriff, I’m wondering it this means that Ron might die in book 6 or 7 in order to save Hermione and Harry?

There is also something called the “every-other-book� theory. In COS and GOF, Ron was a major character in the development of the story. In POA and OOTP, his role was diminished and Hermione got more of the spotlight. That is 2/4 for Ron, and 2-5 for Hermione. What if, according to this theory, Ron gets the spotlight again in book 6, only to die at the end? That leaves book 7 for Hermione and Harry, who go to fight Voldemort with the love they have for each other and for Ron, and they win the battle because of that love?

This would solve the problem of Ron being shoved aside, because if this happens, Ron is a big part of the victory. He may not be there in person, but he’ll be there in spirit.

This would also solve the problem of romantic love overtaking the focus of the story, since Harry and Hermione share their love for one another, but at the same time, they also carry this love for their best friend. Ron is like a brother to Harry, and he is a friend to Hermione. This way, we have romantic, platonic and sibling love all co-existing as a major force that can destroy Voldemort.

-----
Hi MoF,

"ami" is friend, you're right. "Amour" is love, as a noun. "Aimer" is the verb "to love." I believe that converted, "aim" is love (verb), as in "elle aime*..." she loves. My French is very rusty, so if someone else can correct or confirm, that would be nice. :)

*corrected

[evaluna]

Perdita, I always slept through morning French, sorry! No help from me. But I think you're probably correct in that it's quite close but no cigar.

I think Sarmi's point about Ron mentioning being trampled by a raging hippogriff is definitely a clue, plus it appears in 2 books as mentioned. It goes together well IMO with the Ron 6th Step 'theory' I was trying to flesh out. All I felt sure of was that it probably related to somehow losing Hermione to Harry, and perhaps losing something else involving Harry as well -- and your guess is perhaps it's his [Ron's] life, which does seem quite possible. Your point that Ron being, I'm thinking, at Harry's feet in the 6th Step scene, plus having mentioned about the trampling hippogriff, could very well mean he sacrifices himself [laid out at Harry's feet] to save Harry and Hermione [a.ka. the hippogriff metaphor]. VERY interesing.

[Ecthelion]

Posted by Perdita:
I was thinking, there have been several instances in OOTP where the reader is presented with the idea that Ron might die. To build on his own prediction about the hippogriff, I’m wondering it this means that Ron might die in book 6 or 7 in order to save Hermione and Harry?

Despite my other theory in the who's going to die thread, I have thought of this as well. There are an alarming total occurances where Ron's death can be foreshadowed. As for myself, I am also thinking that by dieing for Harry and Hermione, he'll redeem himself from the distant mode he is currently residing in. If his death can't fit him in like the old days with the trio, nothing can.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
You said they are friends but that doesn’t mean that a friend can’t irritate you. Hermione does that often and if she doesn’t change things will go the wrong way between them.

The first part is naturally true, and pretains to a large number of very strong friendships that I know in real life, and also to some which I have come to know through by books. However, the last part is a bit strong though. True, is she kept on going in her snippish ways, things will go wrong between them eventually. But being snippish isn't the only disposition she adopts around Harry, there are other emotions being conveyed at the same moment she is allegedly being a bit rude to Harry. Those emotions aren't spoken out loud but are witnessed in the moments that H/hr people so adamently harp on to prove their ship.

I utterly fail to see the point in the long run people make when they are saying Hermione is too harsh on Harry. It doesn't matter! Nobody does the things they do for each other and don't care for each other deeply. Those instances that show the intense moments they so frequently participate in are relatively irrevelant in the whole run of things. Sure they over-react for a day or less, but afterwords, they are back to normal. Different people have different ways of arguing and settling issues. The fact that their arguements, despite high emotions, are still quite productive, and that, considering the depth and issues they were discussing, is a plus.

EDIT: Earendil, what's the picture in your sig supposed to be? All that appears to me is an "x" that signals that the picture can't be shown. Is it the pic in your avatar? Just wondering.....:)

[GilyAnn]

Exactly. Friends can irritate each other, as Hermione as irritated both Harry and Ron, but as long as her intentions remain as pure as they have been Harry and Ron will know that she means well through all her nagging and cajoling. If Hermione is as bad as some readers want to make her, I would be at a loss as to how she remains friends with the boys. There is still something that holds them all together, even through their character clashing, and I don't see why Hermione needs to compromise anything about herself to make Ron (or Harry) happy. If she were to get together with either one of them, it would be an utterly negative statement to project for Hermione to have to alter the parts of her character that make her who she is.

She is friends with him. But she irritates Harry to a point that he lies to her and doesn’t listen to her. Ron has a much better holding up to Hermione than Harry does. Probably because Hermione is in some ways the same as Mrs. Weasley.



That still doesn't equate to Harry trying to avoid another talking-to from Hermione. He is upset and would feel awkward having to talk over the prefect thing with Hermione--but he's not trying to skirt around criticism. Just to reiterate the point, here's my response to GilyAnn's response evaluna:


Here is what evaluna wrote to me:

This makes sense in the incident of Harry not wanting to get T's in all his OWLs, but it doesn't apply to the Prefect scene. He was clearly expressing feelings of humiliation, and couldn't even look her in the eye. Why is his reaction to Hermione so strong in this incident? She can't possibly tell him off for not being made a Prefect.

Here is what I wrote:

Well let’s see Hermione just made a huge scene of the prefect thing, because she was excited about her own prefect thing. Everyone thinks that Harry was going to be it. Harry is upset and embarrassed because everybody thought that he was it and he didn’t reach it. So knows he is upset and frustrated, not to mention extremely embarrassed. Why would he want to see Hermione? Why would he want to talk to anybody for that matter?

And to answer your question which I already answered above:

So, how can Harry still be trying to avoid another telling off with the prefect incident? GilyAnn said that he was embarassed and didn't want to talk to anyone at that point, and I agree. However, why put in that brief scene with Harry and Hermione alone in the room? What purpose did it serve other than to show that Harry was unable to meet Hermione's eyes, specifically? He could barely even speak to her normally: why her alone? We got a strong enough impression of his humiliation in the scene with Fred, George, Ron, Hermione, and Mrs. Weasley--so why put in the extra passage with just Hermione?

I was answering the prefect thing. But to add. Harry is embarrassed. Everybody includes Hermione. Who thought along with everybody else that Harry was going to be Prefect. Harry had not yet expressed his embarrassment. We don’t hear that Harry felt himself turning red or what he felt. This feelings had nothing to do with Hermione. Although the biggest embarrassment was caused when she came in. This has to do with Harry failing at something for the first time (which I’m very glad he did so. Because it was a lesson that needed to be teach). Harry failed at something and he is ashamed of it. If you see almost everybody avoided looking at him also. Only the twins did. It’s a scene full of shame for everybody but for Harry it is extreme because he is the subject of it.

Hermione has shown that she is perfectly capable of understanding when Harry "has" to do something, like check on Sirius before going to the DoM, and she's willing to do whatever it takes to make it happen as long as Harry is able to be reasonable. She is also not about to sit back and take orders like a good little soldier without even questioning Harry's logic.

I don't understand this. She did that to stall Harry. She wasn’t expecting that Harry wanted to do it right away. The idea that Harry check on Sirius was Hermione’s not Harry’s. Hermione tries to imposse her thinking on to Harry’s. She clearly thinks that she can't find a way to prevent Harry from going to DoM. She is shocked when Harry tells her that they have to do it now. For a moment it seemed like Hermione was going to stall Harry by doing another one of he PoA-firebolt's things.

And even though she is right. The evidence was against her. Harry have had those dreams before and they had been real. It did seemed like DD wanted Harry to block the dreams so he wouldn’t see what was going on. Evidence pointed against her. She only had on her side what DD said. (again if Dumbledore would have said WHY this wouldn't have happend) But common sense will tell any person that when someone close to you is on Danger you will go and help them. Hermione didn’t think that Harry should go to DoM and even though she is right. She doesn’t seem to understand how important Sirius is to Harry. She is inflexible on her impossing her way of thinking, which causes Harry to be more stubborn about his intentions.

Even though H/Hr are always predicting that Ron and Harry will break apart. The fact is that Harry never questions Ron’s loyalty he knows he has him on his side. On the other hand Hermione had to show Harry something to demostrate her support. You think that for a friend of 5 years Harry would know that she is loyal friend and supports him. Yet he mentions it like is something he ever doubt she had. Not something nice on a future partner. By now I expected Harry to know what a friend Hermione is.

Gily Ann

[Sarmi]

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476070#post476070))
There is also something called the “every-other-book� theory. In COS and GOF, Ron was a major character in the development of the story. In POA and OOTP, his role was diminished and Hermione got more of the spotlight. That is 2/4 for Ron, and 2-5 for Hermione. What if, according to this theory, Ron gets the spotlight again in book 6, only to die at the end? That leaves book 7 for Hermione and Harry, who go to fight Voldemort with the love they have for each other and for Ron, and they win the battle because of that love?


I kinda disagree. It's like there's a triology, a transition, and then another triology.

What I mean is that Books 1-3 are very Harry & Ron centric. The 1st Triology

Book 4 was straight down the middle, you couldn't tell who Harry went to more or spent more time with. It was a transition book.

I'm guessing that Books 5-7 are going to be Harry & Hermione centric. The 2nd Triology. OotP was already very Harry & Hermione centric, and I don't see it losing that tone.

In OotP, there were plenty of clues to Ron dying. One of them was that he couldn't get his raven to stop crowing. Raven's represent death. Then we also have Ron joking about tea leaves saying "die, Ron, die!"

But I do agree that Ron may die for Harry and Hermione to continue on. He would realize, if he doesn't know now, how much Hermione means to Harry and vice versa.

Sarmi

[Earendil]

Anagrams make me itch, even though the "ginger Ron" thing is pretty funny. :) Anyway, on Ron dying: it's a huge possibility, as it is with anyone dying in this series, but he doesn't absolutely need to die for H/Hr to happen, in my book. Either way, I believe that Harry and Hermione will realize that they have feelings for each other, but I sadly don't think they'll ever be able to act on them. This ties in with my belief that Harry won't survive the series, but anyway, I think it's highly possible that either Ron or Hermione will be killed off as well.

Ecthelion, I have a spoiler pic from ROTK with Sam in Shelob's lair holding the Phial of Galadriel--wonder why it's showing as the red X of doom for you? Bother. :sigh:

[Queenie22442003]

I think that it will be ginny and nelville!!!!!!! and truthfull ginny makes a bad couple with dean! sorry all you ppl :)

[sone]

You know, I wonder if Hermione is just as unaware of her feelings as Harry is.

[evaluna]

GilyAnn, just to correct you: on your last post, that wasn't me you quoted. That was Earendil's response to you. I can't take credit for that. Right above that she was using a piece she quoted from me.
Cheers!

BTW: Earendil, your theory is heartbreaking. I'm sure you have good reason and I generally find theories fascinating. However I really hope you won't be offended if I say I hope that bit where Harry & co die is wrong... *sob* I guess a secret part of me still wants Harry to fulfill his deepest desire on earth and not the hereafter...Does that make me a total sop? Probably ;)

[haycheng]

Gile Ann
Every friendship or relationship is different. The idea that Harry considers Ron is a better friend is simply incorrect. It is very clear in both the beginning of GOF and OFTP, harry thinks about them both. They are somewhat equal in his mind(I hate to compare as every relationship is different). IMHO, Ron has been a silent supporter in OFTP, he has never voiced any opinion that changes the decision making one way or the other. I can not call this diplomatic. It is all up to Hermione to prevent Harry to do anything foolish. In all incident, Hermione has made a different in harry's decision. He has chosen to write in code after hermione remind him mail can be read. He has also decided to check on Sirus before run out to DoM due to Hermione. She may be bother and nagging but Harry always remember her support and her logic. He respect Hermione greatly. Hermione asks Harry to head DA can also consider respect for Harry ability. This shows she may know harry better than himself.

I will repeat what I have said earier. Every romantic relationship is different. It is not uncommon for a relationship contain action or feeling that is similiar to motherly or fatherly. What important is how the two person look at their action. hermione has never consider she is superior or motherly towards Harry. While Harry finds hermione may be bothersome from time to time, he has never consider Hermione act motherly towards. Our opinion of their action is not important, their opinion is. As long as they do not consider Hermione's action is motherly or bothersome, then they are not.

Ron's diplomatic: The idea of diplomatic is to get your opinion across and give influence on others. Please tell me why everyone keep on saying Ron is diplomatic. His opinion has not carry any weight in this book.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Little bit off topic I think so that this belong to Who will die in book 6.

Anyway my little post about this scene was a little bit to long for my taste but I think I needed to bring it just to say what I do read there. Now about what will happen book 6.

How I already did say this Dream-Sirius debate between Harry and Hermione and in the background Ron shows in some ways how it will be in book6 and I´m positive that Ginny won't break into the circle of this trio.
That what between this three happen is still special though Luna, Ginny and Neville are a great step closer.

In my list is Neville as closest now and was it always. Now after book 5 he is much more closer he is now somehow Harrys shadow.

This arguement in Out of fire is significant for book6 because Harry and Hermione are mainly arguing about this important topic. Like two Commanders the first one is more with his heart arguing the other one with the brain but still the heart plays with. As Harry talked to Dumbledore he knows that Hermione was right. That say he will more as in book5 speak with Hermione. Ask after her opinion maybe that often that she might once haven't an answer.
I mean we did see what happens in this book every one who had an authority for Harry did lose in to be right and to be telling Harry this stuff only Hermione not. That say in book 6 she will appear much more as a girl (human). That say I did show which pressure was on Hermione that she thought she needed to save Harry but after book5 we know book6 will be much more a war. This was just the beginning. And if I guessing right than we see a Hermione which isn't very unlike to PoA. Its like that: Book 3 x 2= book 6..
POA was still IMO that depresed book so far because there was the first glime what gonna happen now take it with 2 and you got book 6. That implied there is much more pressure in it as in any book before. Harry will feel pressure because of his guilty feeling for Sirius dead and because of the prophecy. Hermione will feel pressure because Harry is now much more in danger and he has to bring himself in danger because he have to kill Voldemort, Ron will even feel pressure because of the same reasons and because of Harrys shadow.

Earendil: I do see your signature nice pic. I think only Hogsmeadieans can see it.

[Mad Eye Mike]

JKR has filled her Harry Potter series with many themes, symbolisms and subtleties. In the first of this four part series of essays, I will focus on a particularly fascinating theme that has appeared in every one of the five books to date.


Harry + Hermione - Ron

The following essay will illustrate how Harry and Hermione always experience the most crucial and perilous situations together without Ron. It will lay bare how H/Hr always end up sharing an intense emotional encounter - alone - and how that strengthens the bond between them. It will show Ron’s presence being lessened more and more with each passing book, how we’re being weaned off him slowly, why R/Hr aren’t being set-up as a couple and ultimately, how H/Hr are.


Philosopher’s Stone/Sorcerer’s Stone:

The trio’s very first adventure established what was to come in later books. After Ron’s eliminated from the chess match, H/Hr continued forward to the last test - potions. The test itself wasn’t the ‘fail and you get to do it over’ kind either, it had life or death consequences attached - pretty stressful stuff for a couple of eleven year olds. Before being forced to leave Harry, Hermione’s lip trembled, she threw herself onto him, hugged him and finally allowed let her emotional wall come down. Now if the characters had been older, like 18 instead of 11, this would've been a very romantic moment between them. The scene of a girl (near tears) throwing herself onto a boy and embracing him before he sets off to possibly face his death evokes some very powerful imagery. However, if JKR has been setting up R/Hr from the beginning (as some r/hr shippers say), why didn’t she have Hermione stay behind to take care of Ron while Harry moved forward by himself? For the first time, H/Hr are given the spotlight alone, together to face a perilous circumstance.

Note #1 - This is the first time Ron was separated from H/Hr but it was cleverly disguised as the classic ‘Heroes Best Friend Sacrifices Himself’ scene. However, take notice of how neither Harry nor Hermione felt the need to check on Ron who sacrificed himself. Harry even had to convince himself Ron was okay because he wasn’t really sure if Ron was dead or not. Literally and symbolically, H/Hr looked back at Ron while they continued forward together.

Note #2 - Take a closer look at the pieces each of the trio replaces and play as during the chess game. Ron’s a Knight, Hermione’s a Rook and Harry’s a Bishop.

The Knight (Ron) moves in an ‘L’ shape in any direction. While the Rook and Bishop can move freely around the board (in their respective directions), the Knight is limited to only two square jumps - one forward, one diagonal. This parallels Ron’s place in the trio as he’s also limited in how far his abilities will take him.

The Rook (Hermione) moves horizontally and vertically any number of squares forwards and backwards. Incidentally, this powerful piece is the only one that can perform the ‘Castling’ maneuver - a move that’s sole purpose is to protect the King from harm (Hermione protects Harry).

The Bishop (Harry) moves diagonally any number of squares forward or backwards. By nature of its movements, the Bishop is the perfect companion piece to the Rook. Together they can cover the entire length of the board and all squares.

Now I just want to point out one last piece - The Queen. This is the most powerful piece in the game as it can move horizontally, vertically, diagonally, forwards and backwards any number of squares. The Queen is basically the Rook (Hermione) and Bishop (Harry) combined into one piece. Something else to keep in mind - it was the Queen that took Ron out of the game.


Chamber of Secrets:

This is the book where H/Hr began to intellectually separate themselves from Ron and the start of their ‘mental connection’ where they instinctively know what the other is thinking. Jointly, H/Hr were able to piece together the mystery involving Tom Riddle, the Chamber, the Diary and the Basilisk. Here’s where we first saw Ron wasn’t on the same level as H/Hr and as they continued to figure things out, Ron was more and more baffled as to what was going on. The only thing he did contribute was in remembering he saw Riddle’s name on a trophy. Ron was even left behind with Lockhart when he and Harry reached the Chamber. Couldn’t JKR have involved Ron in a more significant way? It was his sister (Ginny) trapped down there and dying after all. JKR made something perfectly clear with this book and that’s when Hermione isn’t with Harry, he’s going to have to continue on alone in one form or another. In this case, it was in every way.

Note #3 - During the last night in the Great Hall, the text (clearly from Harry’s POV) described how Hermione came running towards him screaming “You did it! You solved it!”. Notice how JKR doesn’t have Hermione include Ron by saying something like “You both solved it!”.


Prisoner of Azkaban:

This may be the quintessential H/Hr moment of the series thus far. It contains everything - emotion, fear, friendship and symbolism all rolled into one extended sequence. This was the book (until OotP) where Ron’s lack of importance and presence became most evident. Beginning with Dumbledore telling Hermione ”Three turns should do it”, H/Hr proceed to go on an incredible adventure together which completely dominated the tale from that point on. For the third straight time, JKR completely removed Ron rather than finding a way to involve him. Once again, Ron didn’t get to share in the terrifying and jubilant moments H/Hr experienced together. First H/Hr traveled back in time to save Buckbeat from execution. Then they spent three hours alone together in the woods talking quietly. Then they watch as the situation from earlier when Pettigrew got away played out before them. Then Harry confided in Hermione he thought he saw his father (something Harry was incredibly embarrassed about admitting by the way). Then Harry saved himself, Sirius and Hermione from the Dementors when he finally produced a Patronus. Finally, it was H/Hr who took a ride on a Hippogriff to save Sirius. In the end, after all was said and done, it was Harry and Hermione whom saved the day, once again, without Ron.

Note #4 - Did you know the Hippogriff represents love in mythology? Think of the imagery and literary theme that JKR presented by having Harry and Hermione ride on it to save the day. In terms of symbolism, it doesn’t get any more fairy tale and romantic than that.

Note #5 - When writing down predictions for his future, Ron jokingly says he will get trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff (crushed by love?).


Goblet of Fire:

When Harry lost Ron’s friendship, the schools support and encountered the negative side of fame for the first time in his life, Hermione stood by him. When the public (and Molly) began targeting Hermione for supposedly playing with Harry and Krum’s hearts, Harry stood by her. It was a curious bit of writing by JKR to make it so when H/Hr finally experienced rumors and innuendo for the first time in their lives, all they had were each other to lean on for emotional support. Ron was still too bitter towards Harry and too busy giving Hermione a hard time about Krum to be an effective friend to either of them. Also noteworthy is how JKR wrote it so H/Hr practiced the summoning charm alone together - the very charm which saved Harry’s life later. As GoF went on, H/Hr grew closer and the gap that already separated them from everyone else was widened. Emotionally, intellectually and magically, Harry and Hermione continued progressing together forward while Ron lagged behind yet again. With all the focus on the Yule Ball and dating, one of the key aspects often overlooked is how JKR yet again divided the trio during a time of stress. While Ron was off losing control of his emotions, JKR proceeded to develop the bond between H/Hr to the point where it became absolute.

Note #6 - Ron once again made the prediction of getting trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff.

Note #7 - In the time she spent with Krum, Hermione talked about Harry so much that Krum suspected there was more going on between H/Hr than friendship. One of the classic examples of having subconscious feelings for someone is when you talk about them non-stop to other people.

Note #8 - No matter how much hate mail she got or taunts she endured, Hermione never denied the rumors she was Harry’s girlfriend.

Note #9 - Ron at one point actually asked Hermione if she was brewing love potions. It’s possible even Ron has noticed the H/Hr connection. If not, why else would he asks such a thing?


Order of the Phoenix:

There are three - count ‘em - three separate occasions in OotP where Harry and Hermione go on together without Ron.

A. With Hagrid to see Grawp
B. Leading Umbridge to the Centaurs
C. In the Department of Mysteries

A. In the first instance, JKR had Harry and Hermione go with Hagrid to see Grawp. Now, what’s interesting is how this took place during Ron’s big moment. That was the day Ron helped Griffindor win the Quidditch Cup and it was written to have both Harry and Hermione miss it. I can totally understand why Hagrid went to get Harry, but did Hermione really need to go as well? Especially since it was the perfect opportunity to have her stay behind and watch the guy she’s supposedly in love with play in an important game. If R/Hr are being set-up to be together, why didn’t JKR have Harry go on alone with Hagrid while Hermione stood behind to watch Ron win the cup? That was a perfect opportunity to showcase a R/Hr moment and yet, it didn’t happen. Instead we were given another intense emotional experience for H/Hr to share together while Ron was absent.

Note #10 - The text describes a shaking and whimpering Hermione clinging to Harry as he protects her from Grawp’s outstretched hand. Try to picture the image of a terrified Hermione being protected in Harry’s arms. Not very platonic looking is it?


B. In the next example, JKR had Harry, Hermione and Umbridge enter the forest to go look for Dumbledore’s ‘weapon’. What followed was another potentially fatal situation for H/Hr and Ron was nowhere to be found - this time he was bound and gagged on the floor in Umbridge’s office. True he wasn’t the only one as Neville, Ginny and Luna were also left behind, but none of them are as important as Ron are they? Ginny and Luna haven’t been in all five books and Neville has never really been important to the plot until now. Point is, they’re not part of the trio - Ron is. Yet, it’s Harry and Hermione alone who shared another intense emotional experience under not only the threat of Umbridge, but the Centaurs as well. Couldn’t JKR have found a way for Ron to play a part in this? No, it’s written so that he shows up with Ginny, Neville and Luna well after it was all over.

Note #11 - When the Centaurs attack Umbridge, Harry grabs Hermione and pulls her down to the ground. JKR could’ve simply written it to have H/Hr duck for cover, but she doesn’t.


C. The Department of Mysteries is the last of the three instances where Harry and Hermione proceeded without Ron. When running away from the DE’s, the six kids split up into two groups of three. Now what’s interesting here is JKR didn’t split the trio away from the new kids, no instead she split up the trio. What’s even more interesting (for you H/G shippers) is that it was the perfect opportunity for Ginny to take center stage and be showcased as Harry’s future partner in crime so to speak, but it didn’t happen. Nor was it written to have R/Hr work together as a finely tuned team. Instead JKR gave us yet another instance where H/Hr worked together or were together in a life-threatening situation. When Ron disappeared, he remained missing in action for quite a while and when he finally reappeared, he had already been rendered useless. Consequently, he almost got himself killed when he released a brain from its tank and was nearly strangled by its thoughts.

Note #12 - Wasn’t it rather symbolic that Ron (who is viewed upon as the comic relief of the trio) was incapacitated by some sort of laughing spell and then began fighting with a brain (Hermione?) which began suffocating him? I love Ginny’s line of “Harry, it’ll suffocate him!” - perhaps this is a symbolic text reference to a R/Hr relationship?

Note #13 - When everyone first ran from the DE’s, Harry reached back and grabbed for Hermione’s robes to drag her forward. Interesting how it wasn’t written for him to grab for Ginny or to have Ron grab for Hermione. Instinctively, subconsciously, the one Harry reached out to grab and protect was Hermione. There are five other people Harry could’ve grabbed (including his supposed intended Ginny), and yet, JKR had him reach for Hermione.


Now if this had only happened once or twice in five books then I could easily write it off. In literature however, patterns, themes and symbolism are relevant and with someone like JKR who uses all three, you have to look closely. What is JKR hoping to establish by constantly having H/Hr bond without Ron? Regardless of whether the threat was an emotional or physical one, Harry and Hermione continue to experience and share all these extraordinary moments together. Why is JKR writing it that way?

Now assuming the trio survives their seventh year, don’t you think Ron is going to feel left out? Try to imagine being Ron for a second. Its after you’ve graduated Hogwarts and Voldemort has been defeated. Every wizard and witch in the world is going to want to talk to the people who helped bring him down. Harry will be bigger than a legend, so will Hermione and everyone else who played a part. However, considering it was always H/Hr together (in some form) who defeated Voldemort and his DE’s time and time again, it’ll be H/Hr who’ll be in demand for interviews, discussions, teaching posts, etc. Yes Ron did play a small part in some of these adventures, but at a certain point, he can’t talk anymore because he wasn’t there to share in the full experience with H/Hr.

Now can you imagine Ron dating Hermione and she’s always being asked to do a joint interview with Harry talking about all the times they worked together to triumph over Voldemort? How do you think Ron is going to feel about that? He might mature as he gets older but eventually, this will get to him. No significant other likes to see their partner share in the experience of all these adventures with someone else. Worst of all for Ron, there’s no one to blame. Harry’s not at fault, Hermione’s not at fault and neither is Ron. He just wasn’t there to share in what H/Hr went through and that’s the way it is. I can just see a day in the future where the three of them do an interview with the Daily Prophet and it goes something like this:

Reporter: So, tell us how you first defeated Voldemort’s plan for returning.
Harry: Well, we found out he was after the Sorcerer’s Stone.
Hermione: Yeah, it was hidden at Hogwarts.
Reporter: Rumor has it the stone was well guarded. How did you three get to it?
Harry: Well, we had to pass four test in order to get to the stone.
Reporter: What kind of tests?
Hermione: Herbology, Charms, Transfiguration and Potions.
Harry: If it wasn’t for Hermione, I never would’ve gotten pass the potions test. See, there were only two correct choices. One allowed you to move forward, the other allowed to go back.
Reporter: Only two? So how did you get back Ron?
Ron: Oh, um…I got knocked out in chess game before that.
Reporter: I see. So Harry, tell us about the Chamber in your second year, legend has it you took on a Basilisk all by yourself.
Harry: Well, I never would’ve found it if it weren’t for Hermione. She’s the one who figured out it was traveling through the pipes.
Reporter: Really Miss Granger?
Hermione: Well, I only helped, it was Harry who figured out where the chamber entrance was, took on Riddle solo and saved Ginny.
Reporter: Mr. Weasley, where were you?
Ron: I went with Harry into the chamber but we got separated when the roof caved in so I got stuck behind with Prof Lockhart.
Reporter: I see. Now Harry, tell us about your third year when you took on a heap of Dementors.
Harry: Well, I owe everything to Professor Lupin. He’s the one who taught me how to produce a Patronus.
Reporter: But didn’t you and Miss Granger break wizard law and travel back in time?
Harry: Um, yeah we did. See, Hermione had this Time Turner that Professor McGonagall gave her because she was taking so many classes that year. It allowed us to travel back, save both a Hippogriff named Buckbeat and my late Godfather Sirius Black from execution as well as our past selves.
Reporter: Hermione, you must’ve been one responsible 13 year old to be given a time turner?
Hermione: Well, Professor McGonagall always trusted in me so yeah, I guess.
Reporter: Mr. Weasley, what was it like to travel back in time?
Ron: Oh well, uh…I had my leg broken and was knocked out in the hospital when all this happened so I didn’t get to go.
Reporter: I see. Well Harry, what about the night when Voldemort returned in your forth year. Tell us, how did you escape him and all those DE’s?
Harry: Well it’s like I’ve said many times before, I used the Accio charm to summon the portkey over to me and that’s how I got away.
Reporter: Good thing you paid attention in Charms class huh?
Harry: Actually, it was Hermione who taught me that spell.
Reporter: Is that so Miss Granger?
Hermione: Well yes you see. I originally taught it to Harry so he could get pass the first task in the TWT which involved fire-breathing dragons. He needed a spell that would allow him to summon his Firebolt broomstick.
Reporter: Ah I see, I see. So tell us Ron, what was it like helping teach Harry the summoning spell? Was he a quick learner?
Ron: Actually, at that time Harry and I had a falling out and weren’t speaking to each other so I wouldn’t know.
Reporter: I see. Anyway Harry, the night the world found out Voldemort returned, tell us, how did you and your friends ever escape from Delores Umbridge?
Harry: Well, actually, it was all Hermione’s brilliant plan.
Reporter: Oh really? Tell us Miss Granger, how did you escape from that awful woman?
Hermione: Well I remember she went to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry and I just couldn’t let that happen, so I lied and told her we were keeping a weapon for Professor Dumbledore hidden in the forest.
Reporter: Why did you say that?
Hermione: Well, earlier we had been in the forest when we discovered the Centaurs no longer wanted humans in there. So I figured if we went deep enough into the woods, they’d drive Umbridge away for us.
Reporter: That was smart. But wait. Why were you in the forbidden forest?
Harry: Hagrid took us there to meet his brother Grawp and that’s when we learned the Centaurs were angry with humans.
Reporter: Interesting. And what was Grawp like Mr. Weasley?
Ron: Um, actually, I was playing in a Quidditch match. I didn’t go with them to met Hagrid’s brother.
Reporter: I see, so it was just you and Hermione alone Harry?
Harry: And Hagrid.
Reporter: Yes of course, and Hagrid. So getting back to that night, did your plan work Miss Granger? Did the Centaurs drive Umbridge away?
Hermione: Oh yes they did, but they almost killed us as well.
Reporter: Heavens! Were you scared?
Hermione: Oh goodness yes! I had no idea what to say.
Reporter: Harry?
Harry: Yeah, I was scared too.
Reporter: And what about you Ron?
Ron: Er…I wasn’t there with them.
Reporter: Oh no? where were you?
Ron: I was back in Umbridge’s office gagged and tied up on the floor.
Reporter: I see. Well, thank you three for your time.


You see what I’m talking about? If JKR stays with this theme of Ron being separated, he’ll never truly be able to share in Harry and Hermione’s experiences. H/Hr will forever be linked - especially if they succeed in taking down Voldemort. Unless JKR makes Ron a big time hero in the next two books (which would be stupid but not totally out of the question considering the whole ‘prefect’ nonsense in OotP), he’s always going to be the third wheel. Now I know what you some of you r/hr shippers are saying “Well, a tricycle has three wheels and that’s what the trio is.” That analogy doesn’t apply to the trio and I’ll explain why. On a tricycle, you usually have one big front wheel (Harry) and two supporting wheels (R/Hr). If any of the wheels break off, the tricycle collapses and ceases to function. In the above examples, when Ron broke off, H/Hr continued just fine. They were still able to peddle forward without the third wheel. What kind of tricycle only needs two wheels? Well the answer isn’t a tricycle at all, it’s a bicycle.

For those of you now saying ”Oh, but I’ve seen three wheeled bicycles.” Yeah, but on those bikes, all the wheels are equally important. That’s not the case with the trio. Though Harry is the star of the books, within them, Hermione is every bit his equal as a character and student. Even JKR has said ‘Harry needs Hermione badly’. Ron is neither the star nor equal as a character, student, in ability, etc. For those of you thinking the trio’s more like a triangle, once again it doesn’t apply. When was the last time you saw a two-sided triangle? You know what a triangle is with on side missing? A right angle.

The fact of the matter is this, in every book, JKR has continued her pattern of turning the trio of H/Hr/R into the couple of H/Hr. When presented with every opportunity to truly show off some great R/Hr or H/G moment, JKR hasn’t taken it. Now ask yourself, why? JKR has said she wants to write her characters realistically. Now in real life, when two people go through an intense emotional experience together, they usually form a bond in some way. It doesn’t necessarily always lead to romance but a bond is formed nonetheless. Just look at all H/Hr have been through. Now look at what H/R have been through. Now look at what R/Hr have been through. Now look at what H/G have been through. Doesn’t even come close does it? JKR has made Harry and Hermione so far ahead of everyone else that at this point, there is no other suitable person for them.

I’m sorry to all other shippers out there, but for true love to happen, a foundation must first be set. Ginny just truly ‘developed’ in book 5 - maybe not in your personal view, but in Harry’s eyes and his view is the only one that matters. He’s never noticed Ginny before, he hasn’t gone through anything with her (Chamber doesn’t count as she was knocked out. She wasn’t awake helping him fight the Basilisk or Riddle) and he doesn’t have any type of bond or shared experience with Ginny. OotP confirms this as even after Ginny makes her comment about being possessed, Harry doesn’t go and talk to her about what she experienced or what it was like. Perfect opportunity there for some H/G bonding and it doesn’t occur.

Hermione needs an equal partner and unfortunately, Ron is not that person. In no way shape or form is he on Hermione’s level. Not in maturity, intellect or magical ability. To date Ron would be a step down for Hermione. Honestly, he doesn’t accept Hermione for who she is nor does he respect what she believes in (S.P.E.W). He snaps at her for no reason (Corresponding with Krum via owl post is a crime?) and his normal attitude towards her is rude (Hermione very clearly says this in OotP). Why would a girl like Hermione - smart, beautiful and strong - want to date Ron? In every way imaginable, she exceeds him and as we see in OotP, the only thing they share is time waiting for Harry. This isn’t meant as Ron bashing, but the hard truth is that JKR has simply not written Ron that way.

Ron represents the normal kid in the trio and everyone acknowledges that. Problem is, JKR has made him so normal, he’s almost unimportant now as OotP demonstrated. Harry and Hermione are equal in just about everything - magic ability, intellect and experience. If they were to pair up in a contest against other students, there’s no one their age that can match up against them. Hell, H/Hr have even outsmarted DE’s - much less regular wizards. JKR has written the H/Hr relationship in such a way that realistically, they’ll never be satisfied with anyone else. In every way possible, it’s quite clear that Harry Potter and Hermione Granger were literally made for each other.

[Mar Dhea]

I know this is a bit off-topic, but since I suppose it does concern his relations with everyone, including any possible love interest...

Do you think Harry will be less angry at the world? Will he calm down?

I imagine that he will go the opposite of what what he was, and instead being so passionately annoyed with everything, feel detached from the world and and a little bit...hollow, for a while, having the Sirius-shaped gap in his life. I see, perhaps, people being a bit worried about it, you know, Harry possibly having a very muted response to the life around him. I think, this is just my opinion, that it will require some effort to get Harry bakc inot the hub-bub of life, and to...I don't know, not 'forget' the giant 'X' on him, but maybe put it to the back of his mind until he faces it.

But anyways, I have this feeling that, while no none will walk on eggshells around him, or anything, that he will find people being a bit alienated by it (as with the anger, but it's very hard to know what to say to a greiving person, and with the added burden of Harry's knowledge that he will either be murderer or victim, that no one knows about...) but that he will be brought back, if you will, by unloading this delightful nugget of joy - he must die, or have another man's - if Voldemort can be called 'man' - blood on his hands. Most likely to Hermione - (I know you knew I'd say that!) since it was she he revealed that he thought he saw his father, and Ron seems oddly distant in OotP. I say Hermione also because she is a very Primary character, a person in very great proximity to Harry, a shrewd and observant person, and the one who would possibly be able to handle this best. Maybe he tells it to Luna, or Ginny, or a passing tree for all I know, but the likely person is Hermione. I see Hermione being her particularly shrewd self and noticing his detached-ness is not all due to Sirius, especially if Harry happens to inadvertently hint his feelings on, perhaps, how he wishes he were carefree, all that, in greater frequency or fervency than his so far observed wry comments about a difficult life. The reason it was most likely not noticed so far was that it was put down to grief.

Anyways, no real point to this...

EDIT: Excellent post, MEM! :clappy: Brilliant! You'd kinda feel sorry for Ron though, wouldn't you?

[Turambar]

That's just awesome Mike.:clappy: :clappy: :clappy:
Great work. Specially loved the chess part.

I just want to comment on this which is a fairly frequent argument:

xxxxxx
Hermione tends to mother Harry. He doesn't need someone who always pointing out to him what's right or wrong and nagging him which directions he has to take. Harry should learn that by himself. Sure he needs a voice of reason from time to time but it is his life, it is his decision & Hermione tends to scold him a lot which I think is really annoying. He doesn't need a partner who always question his decision, he needs someone who supports him & understand why sometimes he do what he has to do.
xxxxxx

Basically if Hermione took the attitude of going along with whatever Harry wanted and leaving him to get on with life, not giving him any advice, or not pointing out obvious flaws in his plans and leaving him to learn everything by himself, Harry would be dead. Yes you can learn important lessons by making mistakes but making them can be very costly.
She tries to help him come to a decision and as someone who is a natural leader, is always in the spotlight and has so much happening to him, he finds it helpful to have someone as strong as she is to to at times make decisions and give advice. They both help each other.
A relationship with someone who is primarily, consistently and unquestionably "supportive and understanding" would
a) place Harry in danger
b) put Harry in the role of always having to be the strong, decisive, sure of himself leader. Sometimes he wants someone to rely on and need himself.
Notice that Harry is able to to that with hermione and vice versa. Hermione doesn't get vulnerable and clingy to Ron does she?

BTW :birthday: to Daniel just in case you read these forums. Have a good one.:D

[Sarmi]

Mad-Eye Mike, great post!!!! :clappy: :clappy: :clappy:
I agree with Turambar, love the Queen bit.

Originally posted by Mar Dhea (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476442#post476442))
Do you think Harry will be less angry at the world? Will he calm down?


Well, first things first. Harry is going to have to deal with Sirius' death. I got the feeling that he was still in denial about it at the end of OotP, but slowly moving towards acceptance.

As for how his mood will be after dealing with Sirius' death. *I* think he'll have an outlook of "life is too precious to waste." But I don't want to go too deep into that because then it gets extremely shippy. Speculating his mood isn't very precise because we don't know what JKR is going to do to him and we don't know the future event at the beginning that may shape it.

But I will say that I do agree with Mad-Eye Mike that I believe Book 6 is going to be angsty.

Sarmi

[Ecthelion]

Mad-Eye-Mike, that post was just excellent! Wow. :clappy:



It’s quite clear that Harry and Hermione were literally made for each other.

Ahh. Well said :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Well great post Mike:clappy:.

I like this one with chess very good. By the way if we are by this number three are now than let see how often were H/Hr alone in the Forrest without Ron.

1: PS/SS detention with Hagrid
2: OotP visit grawp
3: OotP trap for Umbridge

POA don't count because they were only on the edge of the forrest the other times in the forrest.

Nice interview I bet someone ask and wheres Ron he is very important.

[MoF]

:clappy: Grat post, Mad-Eye! I feel like putting in a hundred clappys, but i think they will kick me outta this forum if Ido.

You guys should really consider publishing some of your essays...could make loads of money! But its too late to get money from me, I've already copied them down on my HD. Thats what copyrights are for...

[Sirius83]

Mad Eye Mike!

That was a great post! Take some clappies! :clappy: :clappy: :clappy:

Long, but well worth the read!

[sone]

In the words of Lavender Brown, "wow".

[Perdita]

:rotfl: @ the interview, Mad Eye Mike! Here are a couple for you :clappy: :clappy: Can't wait to see the next part of your essays.

And to answer Mar Dhea's question:

I don't think that he'll be angry at everyone. I think he was angry enough in OOTP. JKR also said at the RAH interview that this is as angry as Harry will get in the series.

I do, however, expect to see some of the bitterness between him and Snape flare up in book 6. One, there was the pensieve incident. Two, Harry seemed determined at the end to put the blame on Snape.

*****
Sarmi, the trilogy theory? Cool. I didn't know about it till now.

To Clarify: I didn't mean to say that Ron has to die in order for H/Hr to happen. I prefer that all three of them live, but I have a feeling, based on the books, that either Hermione or Ron will die.

[Turambar]

Mike: just on the chess

The knight is the romantic/tragic figure putting himself in harm's way, often falling in battle, working for a higher lord
The bishop suggests soul and power with a secure base and in earlier times they were politically powerful
The rook/castle again suggests power and security.

BTW love the avatar, Earendil: "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out." Roll on December.;)

[evaluna]

MEM: Ok with this post, you're officially off the hook! :clappy: :clappy:
Puns intended. GREAT post BTW, really good metatheoretical analysis across the septology to date [pentology...].

BTW re: Turambar's BDay greeting to Dan: yeah, cheers to you and all the best, Dan! Anyone who goes on record as believing in magic is quite alright in my book. Pull of the moon is strong, yeah? ;)

[Mutant for Hire]

MEM: Two instances in OotP that you missed.

First off, in the train to Hogwarts, when Ron and Hermione separate from Harry, Harry mentions that he misses Ron. He does not indicate that he misses Hermione at all.

Second off, when Harry has to take only one of the two with him into the Ministry, he picks Ron over Hermione.

Do not underestimate the importance of Ron's friendship to Harry.

[Ecthelion]

By Mutant
First off, in the train to Hogwarts, when Ron and Hermione separate from Harry, Harry mentions that he misses Ron. He does not indicate that he misses Hermione at all.

I believe that was only because he had always traveled with Ron to Hogwarts but has gone without Hermione before. Since this was his first time without Ron, it made more of an impression.

Second off, when Harry has to take only one of the two with him into the Ministry, he picks Ron over Hermione.

This is a bit confusing, and if I were to answer on impulse, it would contain pure speculation. In other words, I'd answer as, oh, the stereotypical H/Hr person would answer.....He wanted Ron to go with him because he cared for Hermione to much. Not entirely plausible but not out of contention either. Why? Well, upon looking a bit closer, Harry does have seemingly legitamite answer...Hermione can stay there so she'll attract more thestrals. But is that his true answer? If he said that to avoid something....I'd have to say he cares for Hermione more than even he knows...

Do not underestimate the importance of Ron's friendship to Harry.

I have never done that despite my misgivings as to where their current friendship is heading. I fully expect to see Ron redeemed...either by verbal means or something as extensive as death.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Mutant for Hire - Actually I didn't miss anything as my essay focused on how and why JKR herself always writes H/Hr. I never said anything about why Harry the character does what he does.


Thank you evaluna, Turambar, Perdita, Sirius, MoF, FlyingPhoenix, Ecthelion, Sarmi and Mar Dhea for the clappys and compliments.

Turambar - With the chess pieces I wanted to show the parallels to the trio in movement. That part of the essay was originally longer, but I edited it out as the post was more than long enough.

evaluna - I haven't forgotten about replying to your 6th step, 6th year theory. I was just busy writing that novel I posted.

sone - 'wow' good or 'wow' bad?

I also want to give a BIG :clappy: to FlyingPhoenix for her wonderful post examining the 'Out of the Fire' scene between Harry, Hermione and Ron. Fantastic!

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476733#post476733))
Mutant for Hire - Actually I didn't miss anything as my essay focused on how and why JKR herself always writes H/Hr. I never said anything about why Harry the character does what he does.

The point of your essay was a mite confusing then as you kept contrasting Hermione and Ron to Harry.

As for Ron, keep an eye on him. He just had a breakthrough this year and between that and everything else going on in his life, he's going to be a much stronger character next year. It is going to be very interesting to see how Hermione reacts to a much stronger Ron next year.

[Earendil]

Mike, awesome post. :bow: Can't wait to see the rest.

Concerning Mutant's second point, Harry was determined to leave behind as many people as possible. He didn't "select" Ron to go with him because he likes Ron better or think Ron is a better friend; he used the excuse that Hermione could stay behind and attract more thestrals because it was only Harry himself and Hermione who were covered with blood. Harry thought they needed more thestrals, so naturally he would suggest that Hermione stick around and lure more to the group. Now, that's the literal excuse: I think that Ecthelion brought up a good point that Harry was trying to keep her and the others out of danger. The fact is still that Harry and Hermione have shared more crucial and dangerous scenes together than Harry and Ron have, and that the author continues to place them in these types of scenes, even if it means passing up an opportunity to place Ginny in the exact same place as Hermione (such as in the DoM) to show a stronger development for H/G.

(BTW, Mutant, my reply to your reply to my reply is still waiting a few pages back, in case you want to look it over. :))

Perdita, I agree completely on Ron not needing to die for H/Hr to happen. It would in theory be nice if the trio all survived the series, but I seriously doubt that this will happen. I wanted to make it clear in advance before a R/Hr shipper pointed out that we all need to pop off Ron to make our ship sail, which is just mean. :p

Thanks, Turambar, a little less than five months now, eh? Can't wait! *twitch* I just wish my sig showed up properly too...:(

[evaluna]

Yes FP your analysis was incredible. Such a light touch. I was really moved. And HayCheng, your posts as well. A funny line here & there but really touching. I feel understood here. *sigh*

100% agree and more :clappy: :clappy: for you both.

BTW, where's our lead 00? HayCheng needs debriefed & outfitted with all the standard accoutrements (-) the anti-H/G accessories.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
The point of your essay was a mite confusing then as you kept contrasting Hermione and Ron to Harry.


If you think I was trying to contrast the importance Ron and Hermione have in Harry's life, then you missed the entire point of my essay.


EDIT: Thank you Earendil, it is much appreciated. And great point about Hermione having the blood on her which is the ONLY way to attract thestrals.

[whizbang121]

Ron represents the normal kid in the trio and everyone acknowledges that. Problem is, JKR has made him so normal, he’s almost unimportant now as OotP demonstrated. Harry and Hermione are equal in just about everything – magic ability, intellect and experience. If they were to pair up in a contest against other students, there’s no one their age that can match up against them. Hell, H/Hr have even outsmarted DE’s – much less regular wizards. JKR has written the H/Hr relationship in such a way that realistically, they’ll never be satisfied with anyone else. It’s quite clear that Harry and Hermione were literary made for each other.


Mad Eye Mike,

Wow. That was amazing. I'm a believer. SS H/Hr

(Fans self.) Is it warm in here?

[Turambar]

Mutant: You say Ron will be "stronger" in the next book. How do you see him becoming stronger? Do you see him becoming more confident in the next book than how he was in OOTP?

[whizbang121]

Originally posted by Turambar (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476801#post476801))
Mutant: You say Ron will be "stronger" in the next book. How do you see him becoming stronger? Do you see him becoming more confident in the next book than how he was in OOTP?


I think confidence at quidditch will help Ron develop his abilities while it also widens the rift between him and H/Hr.

[haycheng]

amaze post Mad Eye Mike !!

[GilyAnn]

I really do know now we are reading different books. You see MEM while your post is nicely constructed. Problem is that HP is not a romance series. JKR has given both of Harry’s sidekicks enough time with the hero. There is no evidence that says that this is a romance novel.



This is the first time Ron was separated from H/Hr but it was cleverly disguised as the classic ‘Heroes Best Friend Sacrifices Himself’ scene. However, take notice of how neither Harry nor Hermione felt the need to check on Ron who sacrificed himself. Harry even had to convince himself Ron was okay because he wasn’t really sure if Ron was dead or not. Literally and symbolically, H/Hr looked back at Ron while they continued forward together.

Which then clearly tells you that this is plot line that JKR has already used with Ron. Then the other to used it with is Hermione. Ron wasn’t badly injured. Harry had to convince Hermione that he was going to be ok. There was no time to waste sitting around was going to make Ron’s efforts worthless. Both Ron and Harry knew that. And by all means Hermione was also left behind. And leave Harry alone. But it was clear to me in this book the action was by all three of them H/R/Hr. But in the end Harry is the hero he is to be left alone.

This is the book where H/Hr began to intellectually separate themselves from Ron and the start of their ‘mental connection’ where they instinctively know what the other is thinking. Jointly, H/Hr were able to piece together the mystery involving Tom Riddle, the Chamber, the Diary and the Basilisk. Here’s where we first saw Ron wasn’t on the same level as H/Hr and as they continued to figure things out, Ron was more and more baffled as to what was going on. The only thing he did contribute was in remembering he saw Riddle’s name on a trophy. Ron was even left behind with Lockhart when he and Harry reached the Chamber. Couldn’t JKR have involved Ron in a more significant way? It was his sister (Ginny) trapped down there and dying after all. JKR made something perfectly clear with this book and that’s when Hermione isn’t with Harry, he’s going to have to continue on alone in one form or another. In this case, it was in every way.

I apologizing for saying this but if we are going to look for the links between one person and the other we are going to find a evidence for every pairing that FA has on scusa. In this book we get many, many times were Ron is at help of Harry. He also was the one that said that Riddle had killed Moaning Mirtle, which it was true. This is the book were most of it Hermione is not present. This is the book were the action is done by Harry and Ron. It was very clear to me that Ron could not be present in the Chamber. Notice that in the final scene neither is Ron or Hermione present, like in SS. In the final scene Harry is left with Riddle, Ginny (which is unconscious) and the basilik. This is the book were Harry kills for the first time. We don’t know what happened to Quirell and in the end Harry never wanted to hurt him. He had no idea why he couldn’t touch him. From a literary point of view Ron had to stay behind for the final scene. Notice that this is the book that while many say it’s too fairytale because Harry rescues Ginny’s, is the one that jkr says it’s important. Is Ron and Harry who do the rescue. In SS were the three of them who do the action.

This may be the quintessential H/Hr moment of the series thus far. It contains everything – emotion, fear, friendship and symbolism all rolled into one extended sequence. This was the book (until OotP) where Ron’s lack of importance and presence became most evident. Beginning with Dumbledore telling Hermione �Three turns should do it�, H/Hr proceed to go on an incredible adventure together which completely dominated the tale from that point on. For the third straight time, JKR completely removed Ron rather than finding a way to involve him. Once again, Ron didn’t get to share in the terrifying and jubilant moments H/Hr experienced together. First H/Hr traveled back in time to save Buckbeat from execution. Then they spent three hours alone together in the woods talking quietly. Then they watch as the situation from earlier when Pettigrew got away played out before them. Then Harry confided in Hermione he thought he saw his father (something Harry was incredibly embarrassed about admitting by the way). Then Harry saved himself, Sirius and Hermione from the Dementors when he finally produced a Patronus. Finally, it was H/Hr who took a ride on a Hippogriff to save Sirius. In the end, after all was said and done, it was Harry and Hermione whom saved the day, once again, without Ron.


JKR had already been giving time alone with the hero to Ron. Clearly she had to give some time to Hermione. So this was the book she did so.

When Harry lost Ron’s friendship, the schools support and encountered the negative side of fame for the first time in his life, Hermione stood by him. When the public (and Molly) began targeting Hermione for supposedly playing with Harry and Krum’s hearts, Harry stood by her. It was a curious bit of writing by JKR to make it so when H/Hr finally experienced rumors and innuendo for the first time in their lives, all they had were each other to lean on for emotional support. Ron was still too bitter towards Harry and too busy giving Hermione a hard time about Krum to be an effective friend to either of them. Also noteworthy is how JKR wrote it so H/Hr practiced the summoning charm alone together – the very charm which saved Harry’s life later. As GoF went on, H/Hr grew closer and the gap that already separated them from everyone else was widened. Emotionally, intellectually and magically, Harry and Hermione continued progressing together forward while Ron lagged behind yet again. With all the focus on the Yule Ball and dating, one of the key aspects often overlooked is how JKR yet again divided the trio during a time of stress. While Ron was off losing control of his emotions, JKR proceeded to develop the bond between H/Hr to the point where it became absolute.

This book the action was done by Harry alone. Not Ron, not Hermione. In this book JKR clearly showed how each of these three characters had to started growing up. She showed how Ron came to terms with Who he was. This book showed how much Harry truly appreciates Ron. In the end BOTH of his sidekicks help but in the end the action was done by Harry alone. Neither Ron and Hermione could be there.



A. In the first instance, JKR had Harry and Hermione go with Hagrid to see Grawp. Now, what’s interesting is how this took place during Ron’s big moment. That was the day Ron helped Griffindor win the Quidditch Cup and it was written to have both Harry and Hermione miss it. I can totally understand why Hagrid went to get Harry, but did Hermione really need to go as well? Especially since it was the perfect opportunity to have her stay behind and watch the guy she’s supposedly in love with play in an important game. If R/Hr are being set-up to be together, why didn’t JKR have Harry go on alone with Hagrid while Hermione stood behind to watch Ron win the cup? That was a perfect opportunity to showcase a R/Hr moment and yet, it didn’t happen. Instead we were given another intense emotional experience for H/Hr to share together while Ron was absent.

Easy because book 5 is still too early to start putting pairings. There is a lot of reasons for JKR to hide this scene in the eyes of Harry and Hermione. What is it that G.waters says: If she interrupts something she is hiding something. Something along those lines. She did often in this book. She had them get to the match but interrupted them. She took them to the forest because she didn’t want Harry and specially Hermione to see how was it that the rest of them were going to free themselves. JKR kept Ron because Ron is the slowest one of all (I agree that sometimes he tend to be a little dense) and either Neville or Ginny were going to do something that JKR wanted them to prevent them from seeing. Notice how surprised Harry seemed that they R/G/N/L free themselves. She avoided this because Harry is our point of view and Hermione is smart and would have notice anything abnormal. BTW none of this has anything to do with romance.

C. The Department of Mysteries is the last of the three instances where Harry and Hermione proceeded without Ron. When running away from the DE’s, the six kids split up into two groups of three. Now what’s interesting here is JKR didn’t split the trio away from the new kids, no instead she split up the trio. What’s even more interesting (for you H/G shippers) is that it was the perfect opportunity for Ginny to take center stage and be showcased as Harry’s future partner in crime so to speak, but it didn’t happen. Nor was it written to have R/Hr work together as a finely tuned team. Instead JKR gave us yet another instance where H/Hr worked together or were together in a life-threatening situation. When Ron disappeared, he remained missing in action for quite a while and when he finally reappeared, he had already been rendered useless. Consequently, he almost got himself killed when he released a brain from its tank and was nearly strangled by its thoughts.

Off course she had to split off the trio! Again Ron was left with his sister and Luna for a REASON. Then she procceded to put Neville with Harry and Hermione and a good thing too since Neville had to carry Hermione. Hermione was also knocked out from the scene.

Note #12 – Isn’t it rather symbolic that Ron (who is viewed upon as the comic relief of the trio) was incapacitated by some sort of laughing spell and then began fighting with a brain (Hermione?) which began suffocating him? I love Ginny’s line of “Harry, it’ll suffocate him!� - perhaps this is a symbolic reference to a R/Hr relationship?

:rotfl: LOL this was funny! It was a nice break for a change!

Note #13 – When everyone first ran from the DE’s, Harry reached back and grabbed for Hermione’s robes to drag her forward. Interesting how it wasn’t written for him to grab for Ginny or to have Ron grab for Hermione. Instinctively, subconsciously, the one Harry reached out to grab and protect was Hermione. There are five other people Harry could’ve grabbed (including his supposed intended Ginny), and yet, JKR had him reach for Hermione.

Wasn’t Ginny behind him? If I’m remember correctly this is the part were they all yelled and the things come crashing down. Hermione stood there and he pulled her forward. Were you expecting her to let her die? Hermione tends to frezze when she is afraid.

Now assuming the trio survives their seventh year, don’t you think Ron is going to feel left out? Try to imagine being Ron for a second. Its after you’ve graduated Hogwarts and Voldemort has been defeated. Every wizard and witch in the world is going to want to talk to the people who helped bring him down. Harry will be bigger than a legend, so will Hermione and everyone else who played a part. However, considering it was always H/Hr together (in some form) who defeated Voldemort and his DE’s time and time again, it’ll be H/Hr who’ll be in demand for interviews, discussions, teaching posts, etc. Yes Ron did play a small part in some of these adventures, but at a certain point, he can’t talk anymore because he wasn’t there to share in the full experience with H/Hr.

It’s clear to me that Ron is included in all the action and has not been left out. It’s clear to me that Mirror of Erised where Ron sees himself as a HB and a QC could be happening in the series. It’s clear to me that Ron and Hermione will also be very important. But it is very clear to me that it will be Harry the one that they will be looking for not Ron and Hermione.

I’m sorry to all other shippers out there, but for true love to happen, a foundation must first be set. Ginny just truly ‘developed’ in book 5 – maybe not in your personal view, but in Harry’s eyes and his view is the only one that matters. He’s never noticed Ginny before, he hasn’t gone through anything with her (Chamber doesn’t count as she was knocked out. She wasn’t awake helping him fight the Basilisk or Riddle) and he doesn’t have any type of bond or shared experience with Ginny. OotP confirms this as even after Ginny makes her comment about being possessed, Harry doesn’t go and talk to her about what she experienced or what it was like. Perfect opportunity there for some H/G bonding and it doesn’t occur.

I’m sorry to all H/Hr shippers but romance isn’t everything on this series. H/G do have a bond, while H/Hr shippers tried to deny it or claim that it doesn’t exist. It does. Don’t think that jkr is going to drop the chambers like that. If you do you may be heading for some serious dissapointment. We had almost no talk about the chambers for 2 books and all of the sudden we have it mention it I think about twice. Jkr will come back with the whole thing.

Hermione needs an equal partner and unfortunately, Ron is not that person. In no way shape or form is he on Hermione’s level. Not in maturity, intellect or magical ability. To date Ron would be a step down for Hermione.

Anybody that read this will think that Ron is some kind of moron. When in fact is not only a humble, intelligent, mature and diplomatic person. Hermione would be lucky to get such a nice guy. It’s a shame that Ginny is his sister!

Ron represents the normal kid in the trio and everyone acknowledges that. Problem is, JKR has made him so normal, he’s almost unimportant now as OotP demonstrated.

Obviously in your opinion. If anything jkr demonstrated how important is Ron for Harry, how good friends they are and what a diplomatic person he is.

It’s quite clear that Harry and Hermione were literary made for each other.

I couldn’t have disagree more. Harry and Hermione are headed towards a problem if jkr doesn’t start working on this soon. That is if that’s not the direction she is taking.

Do not underestimate the importance of Ron's friendship to Harry..

I’m echo of this comment of Mutant for Hire. H/Hr are underestimating Ron and the Weasley’s and they obviously have clues of the series.


Gily Ann

[haycheng]

hi, Gile Ann
Mind read the post I direct to you? Can yo define the term "diplomatic" to me also? I think I have a different dictionary.

[Mutant for Hire]

Okay, as this thread was disgressing in an area, I decided to kick off a new thread on my views on Ron. The short statement is that the Ron/Hermione dynamic of this book and previous books is about to take a dramatic shift. There is every reason to think that Ron is going to be changing, and quite significantly as well, from book five to book six, in an inverse of the change of Harry from books four to five.

[sone]

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476733#post476733))

sone - 'wow' good or 'wow' bad?



Good, of course. Very good. It made points I never even thought about. Been asking myself "why didn't I notice that before?" It also ties in with something Sirius83 said back on the last thread.

[GilyAnn]

Here it is Haycheng: BTW is Gily with Y.

The idea that Harry considers Ron is a better friend is simply incorrect. It is very clear in both the beginning of GOF and OFTP, harry thinks about them both.

No it’s not incorrect. In 3 to 4 weeks that Firebolt fight lasted Harry never bother once to say how much he missed Hermione. In GoF when he had his fight with Ron we heard an approximate of 10 times how much he missed Ron. In fact in these fight we heard that Harry liked Hermione very much but she wasn’t the same as Ron. Then we hear it again on OoP on the train. Cannon tells us that Harry considers Ron his best friend in the world. He doesn’t say the same thing about Hermione. It’s truly sad that we are into book 5 and Harry still is closer to Ron than to Hermione. It’s a matter of preference and some of it has to do with Hermione’s attitude. Harry doesn’t question Ron’s loyalty even with the fight. Yet again he has to see Hermione doing something to know her loyalty.

They are somewhat equal in his mind(I hate to compare as every relationship is different). IMHO, Ron has been a silent supporter in OFTP, he has never voiced any opinion that changes the decision making one way or the other. I can not call this diplomatic. It is all up to Hermione to prevent Harry to do anything foolish. In all incident, Hermione has made a different in harry's decision. He has chosen to write in code after hermione remind him mail can be read. He has also decided to check on Sirus before run out to DoM due to Hermione. She may be bother and nagging but Harry always remember her support and her logic. He respect Hermione greatly. Hermione asks Harry to head DA can also consider respect for Harry ability. This shows she may know harry better than himself.

These are separate things. Harry never questions Hermione’s intellect. He doesn’t like her attitude. Those are two separate things.

Ron's diplomatic: The idea of diplomatic is to get your opinion across and give influence on others. Please tell me why everyone keep on saying Ron is diplomatic. His opinion has not carry any weight in this book.
Because he was. H/Hr may not one to see it this way but it is. I see that people tend to confuse loudness and being correct with diplomacy. Impossing your ideas of others is not being diplomat is having a nazi regimen. When you have diplomacy you:

Using or marked by tact and sensitivity in dealing with others.

Ron did exactly that. From GoF to OoP Ron gave a nice change. He listened to the story and gave his opinion but when he knew that he didn’t think he should put in his tong in the matter. He kept opinions to himself. He didn’t push and he knew when he should get involved and when he shouldn’t. This is not about imposing your ideas on others. That is just wrong. You listen you have an opinion you give it or you simply stay quiet. Ron did that. If anything the biggest nicest change on the series was done by Ron. He will become one important person in the series with or without Hermione.

Gily Ann

[haycheng]

Interesting. I still can not see Ron being diplomatic. I can not see any kid being diplomatic in the story. Molly, Authur and Lupin are the only one seem diplomatic. Ron has continous being rude to loony, headless Nick. It is a sign of lack of diplomatic. Diplomatic is consider every action and pick the one that is most sensitive. Being complete silent and not voice any opinion can not view as diplomaic either as the person has not deal with others at all.

What you see as questioning Hermione's loyality, we see it as a realization of loyality. It just means that the idea Hermine is loyal to him has crossed his mind at that second.

About the firebolt incident, I will need to read it again before I reply. The Tain incident has been replied by someone else. As Harry thinks Ron is more fun, it is compare orange and apple. They are after all "guys", I believe males tend to hang out with their own sex at that age? I could be wrong, I went to an all male high school. At least, Harry mention he like hermione very much.

[sone]

No haycheng, you are quite right. Girls are not fun at that age (well most of them weren't *wink wink*) and I can completely understand Harry thinking there should be a law against girls giggling.

[Ecthelion]

I myself did not see Ron as being "diplomatic". To tell you the truth, he was more of a messanger boy than a diplomat. It was Hermione who did the talking, and Ron who did the conveying. Ron certainly lacked a diplomat's skill when dealing with Micheal Corner, Luna, Seamus, and others. He was quite rash and impulsive and by no means showed any sign of a respectful Diplomat. The only times he could have been labeled such, is when he just added his support to Harry.....after Hermione had done the dirty work, so I'm not so sure that counts.

About the firebolt incident, I will need to read it again before I reply. The Train incident has been replied by someone else. As Harry thinks Ron is more fun, it is compare orange and apple. They are after all "guys", I believe males tend to hang out with their own sex at that age? I could be wrong, I went to an all male high school. At least, Harry mention he like very much.

Yes I agree, and it was quite an accomplishment, at that particular age, to tell a girl that you don't think she's ugly. Though seemingly miniscule, it is a rather large confession to make. Admitingly, I don't think Harry realizes this, but having the emotional and social awareness he has, excuses can be made. :)

[Sarmi]

Originally posted by sone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476972#post476972))
No haycheng, you are quite right. Girls are not fun at that age (well most of them weren't *wink wink*) and I can completely understand Harry thinking there should be a law against girls giggling.


Hey, I'm a lady and sometime *I* think that there should be a law against giggling too.

So, Haycheng & Sone, you aren't alone.

Again, great post Mad-Eye Mike! :clappy:

Sarmi

PS - Earendil, you seem to have accidentally double posted. :sigh:

[haycheng]

Never has to see girls giggling, is it really that bad in high school?

[sone]

Sometimes it was Haycheng.

Completely random thought....I am starting to wonder whether Ron was happy that Harry kissed Cho or that Harry would be out of Hermione's reach.

[Perdita]

sone,

I think it could be argued both ways.

1. He was over-reacting (which suggests that he's celebrating for himself as well as Harry) and was behaving very immaturely, or is it not mature for boys his age to act that way?

2. He was constantly making the "uranus" joke, so Ron's behaviour could be seen as an extension rather than something that is out of the ordinary for him.

[sone]

It could be a mixture of both. It didn't occur to me that he may of known or at least suspected, something was going on between them in GOF.

[Perdita]

That's right, sone.

Either Ron sensed something but kept himself cool for the moment (in GOF), or he saw something in the Neverending-Hug at the beginning of OOTP? ;)

[BabyMars]

Mad Eye Mike,

Great job on your essay! Keep posting them!! They'll make great additions to future H/Hr files. :D

I feel that you were very clear with the point you were trying to get across in your essay. You obviously didn't state anything about romance. You put textual evidence side by side and it created a pattern that I believe you analyzed it correctly. How can you get any more clear?? Great job again!

BTW, GilyAnn, this is the love thread, so romance will be talked about in here whether you think there will be some in the HP series or not. Although Mike didn't state anything about romance in his essay, it is clear to me that posting about romance in this thread, the love thread, is just fine.

Cheers :smooch:

EDIT: 00Hawk 92, I didn't realize I was in the 00 Division. HEHEHE, call me 00HMS HARMONY SHARK! :bite:

Or... we'll just stick with 00Mars and that'll be good too.... :sigh:

[Nami]

In regarding to a Harry/Ginny relationship, it would be interesting if they got together since everyone keeps saying Harry is so much like his father. Lily Evans was also a redhead.

I would really like to see Hermione and Ron get together. It seems kinda ovbvious that Ron likes Hermione. He gets annoyed whenever Krum is mentioned. And they are always fighting. It's cute.

[sone]

Yes Perdita, I noticed it took a while before Hermione let go of Harry, even after she nearly tackled him to the ground.

Let him breathe Hermione....

[Mutant for Hire]

Oh yes, another reason that I'm in favor of Harry and Ginny, and Ron and Hermione. It gives more opportunities for interesting interactions between the four of them and Arthur and Molly Weasley. :)

I can just imagine Arthur trying not to be uncomfortable with the thought of his little girl going out with some boy, even if it is Harry. Of course I expect Molly would be more encouraging, and that would probably cause the two of them to die of embarrassment.

I tend to see the reverse. Molly would have far more reservations about Hermione taking away her little boy, but Arthur would be far more comfortable and approving of Ron seeing a nice sensible girl like Hermione. How Ron would react to that encouragement is anyone's guess.

In short, it's more fun this way. :D

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
I really do know now we are reading different books. You see MEM while your post is nicely constructed. Problem is that HP is not a romance series. JKR has given both of Harry’s sidekicks enough time with the hero. There is no evidence that says that this is a romance novel.


1. I never said HP was a romance series.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
Which then clearly tells you that this is plot line that JKR has already used with Ron. Then the other to used it with is Hermione. Ron wasn’t badly injured. Harry had to convince Hermione that he was going to be ok. There was no time to waste sitting around was going to make Ron’s efforts worthless. Both Ron and Harry knew that. And by all means Hermione was also left behind. And leave Harry alone. But it was clear to me in this book the action was by all three of them H/R/Hr. But in the end Harry is the hero he is to be left alone.


1. Hermione didn't get left behind, she was forced to turn back. There's a difference.
2. They didn't know if Ron was badly injured, Harry just hoped he wasn't.
3. If JKR has been building r/hr since the beginning, why not use that moment to reinforce the bond between them?


Originally posted by GilyAnn
I apologizing for saying this but if we are going to look for the links between one person and the other we are going to find a evidence for every pairing that FA has on scusa. In this book we get many, many times were Ron is at help of Harry. He also was the one that said that Riddle had killed Moaning Mirtle, which it was true. This is the book were most of it Hermione is not present. This is the book were the action is done by Harry and Ron. It was very clear to me that Ron could not be present in the Chamber. Notice that in the final scene neither is Ron or Hermione present, like in SS. In the final scene Harry is left with Riddle, Ginny (which is unconscious) and the basilik. This is the book were Harry kills for the first time. We don’t know what happened to Quirell and in the end Harry never wanted to hurt him. He had no idea why he couldn’t touch him. From a literary point of view Ron had to stay behind for the final scene. Notice that this is the book that while many say it’s too fairytale because Harry rescues Ginny’s, is the one that jkr says it’s important. Is Ron and Harry who do the rescue. In SS were the three of them who do the action.


1. Hermione held all the answers literally in her hand.
2. I'm not sure why you brought up the rest of that stuff because it had nothing to do with the patterns I was focusing on.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
JKR had already been giving time alone with the hero to Ron. Clearly she had to give some time to Hermione. So this was the book she did so.


1. And JKR had H/Hr ride a symbol of love in a moonlite night while they were at it.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
This book the action was done by Harry alone. Not Ron, not Hermione. In this book JKR clearly showed how each of these three characters had to started growing up. She showed how Ron came to terms with Who he was. This book showed how much Harry truly appreciates Ron. In the end BOTH of his sidekicks help but in the end the action was done by Harry alone. Neither Ron and Hermione could be there.


1. The only thing I said about the end of GoF was that Harry was saved by the summoning charm which Hermione taught him during the period he and Ron weren't talking.
2. I never mentioned anything about action so I have no idea why you even brought that up.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
Easy because book 5 is still too early to start putting pairings. There is a lot of reasons for JKR to hide this scene in the eyes of Harry and Hermione. What is it that G.waters says: If she interrupts something she is hiding something. Something along those lines. She did often in this book. She had them get to the match but interrupted them. She took them to the forest because she didn’t want Harry and specially Hermione to see how was it that the rest of them were going to free themselves. JKR kept Ron because Ron is the slowest one of all (I agree that sometimes he tend to be a little dense) and either Neville or Ginny were going to do something that JKR wanted them to prevent them from seeing. Notice how surprised Harry seemed that they R/G/N/L free themselves. She avoided this because Harry is our point of view and Hermione is smart and would have notice anything abnormal. BTW none of this has anything to do with romance.


1. You just confirmed our 'interuptions theory'. Thank you very much.
2. Why did Harry and Hermione have to go into the forest? Please clarify.
3. I never said it had anything to do with romance. I was pointing out JKR's continued pattern of separating H/Hr from Ron during crisis.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
Off course she had to split off the trio! Again Ron was left with his sister and Luna for a REASON. Then she procceded to put Neville with Harry and Hermione and a good thing too since Neville had to carry Hermione. Hermione was also knocked out from the scene.


1. Why did she have to split the trio?
2. Why not show H/G working together?
3. Why not show R/Hr working together?
4. Are you saying Ron can't carry Hermione? If so, how do you know that?
5. Hermione got knocked out eventually, but at least she helped before she was. Ron was rendered useless.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
Wasn’t Ginny behind him? If I’m remember correctly this is the part were they all yelled and the things come crashing down. Hermione stood there and he pulled her forward. Were you expecting her to let her die? Hermione tends to frezze when she is afraid.


1. They were ALL behind Harry, but he only reached for Hermione.
2. Show me where it says Hermione just stood there frozen.
3. Where's the cannon that states Hermione tends to freeze up when she's afraid?


Originally posted by GilyAnn
It’s clear to me that Ron is included in all the action and has not been left out. It’s clear to me that Mirror of Erised where Ron sees himself as a HB and a QC could be happening in the series. It’s clear to me that Ron and Hermione will also be very important. But it is very clear to me that it will be Harry the one that they will be looking for not Ron and Hermione.


1. Ron is not included in all the action as I so clearly pointed out.
2. Mirror of Erised has nothing to do with my essay.
3. Hermione and Ron are already important, but Ron's role is dimishing.
4. Of course Harry will be the one they'll be looking for, it's his story.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
I’m sorry to all H/Hr shippers but romance isn’t everything on this series. H/G do have a bond, while H/Hr shippers tried to deny it or claim that it doesn’t exist. It does. Don’t think that jkr is going to drop the chambers like that. If you do you may be heading for some serious dissapointment. We had almost no talk about the chambers for 2 books and all of the sudden we have it mention it I think about twice. Jkr will come back with the whole thing.


1. The series is not about romance, but this thread is, hence, we're going to talk about it here.
2. There's no emotional bond between H/G. There share a sort of similar experience of being used by Voldemort, but that's not a bond.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
Anybody that read this will think that Ron is some kind of moron. When in fact is not only a humble, intelligent, mature and diplomatic person. Hermione would be lucky to get such a nice guy. It’s a shame that Ginny is his sister!


1. Ron isn't a moron per se, he's just not on H/Hr's level. As a matter of fact, I clearly said no one else is.
2. Ron's not humble. He craves attention and revel's in it.
3. If he's so intelligent, why is he always copying off of Hermione?
4. Ron's a diplomatic person!?!

Diplomatic:

·careful, considerate, delicate, discreet, judicious, polite, politic, prudent, sensitive, subtle, tactful, thoughtful, understanding.

That's not Ron in any way.


Originally posted by GilyAnn
Obviously in your opinion. If anything jkr demonstrated how important is Ron for Harry, how good friends they are and what a diplomatic person he is.


1. I never said Ron wasn't important to Harry. I said his importance is being diminished in the books.
2. I never said they weren't friends.
3. RE: Diplomatic; See post above


Originally posted by GilyAnn
I couldn’t have disagree more. Harry and Hermione are headed towards a problem if jkr doesn’t start working on this soon. That is if that’s not the direction she is taking.


1. No, R/Hr are the ones headed towards the problem when Hermione tells Ron she doesn't like him that way.


Thank you very much Babymars

Mutant - What's more fun for you doesn't necessarily mean what's best for the story.

Cheers!

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Trying to address this point by point is probably a futile exercise, particularly right before bedtime, so please forgive me if I excerpt.

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476436#post476436))
...Note #2 – Take a closer look at the pieces each of the trio replaces and play as during the chess game. Ron’s a Knight, Hermione’s a Rook and Harry’s a Bishop...

....The Bishop (Harry) moves diagonally any number of squares forward or backwards. By nature of its movements, the Bishop is the perfect companion piece to the Rook. Together they can cover the entire length of the board and all squares.

But that's just it. They don't move together. By nature of their movements, they're diametric opposites. It's easier for a knight, with its roundabout blend of horizontal and diagonal movement, to intercept either of them.

Chamber of Secrets:

This is the book where H/Hr began to intellectually separate themselves from Ron and the start of their ‘mental connection’ where they instinctively know what the other is thinking. Jointly, H/Hr were able to piece together the mystery involving Tom Riddle, the Chamber, the Diary and the Basilisk. Here’s where we first saw Ron wasn’t on the same level as H/Hr and as they continued to figure things out, Ron was more and more baffled as to what was going on. The only thing he did contribute was in remembering he saw Riddle’s name on a trophy.

It was on Ron's suggestion (or willingness to express what everyone else seemed to be thinking) that the trio undertook their investigation of Malfoy. The fact that proved a dead end is irrelevant; clearly Hermione took the possibility seriously enough to risk brewing a potion that would surely have led to serious consequences for the trio were it discovered.

Couldn’t JKR have involved Ron in a more significant way? It was his sister (Ginny) trapped down there and dying after all.

GillyAnn, this point's all yours. ;)

JKR made something perfectly clear with this book and that’s when Hermione isn’t with Harry, he’s going to have to continue on alone in one form or another. In this case, it was in every way.

But it's always in every way. At the crucial moment, no matter who he's been with up to that point, Harry is always alone.

That's more of an anti-shipper point, though, so I'll save it for some other time.

Prisoner of Azkaban:

This may be the quintessential H/Hr moment of the series thus far. It contains everything – emotion, fear, friendship and symbolism all rolled into one extended sequence.

I should really save my argument against this. It comes up so frequently.

Then they spent three hours alone together in the woods talking quietly.

You say "talking," I say "Hermione lecturing Harry on the importance of not being seen."

Then Harry confided in Hermione he thought he saw his father (something Harry was incredibly embarrassed about admitting by the way).

And Hermione didn't give him much of a reason not to be, did she? He basically ended up wishing he hadn't said anything.

Then Harry saved himself, Sirius and Hermione from the Dementors when he finally produced a Patronus.

Just because Ron was unconscious doesn't mean he didn't need saving. :p

And note that Harry's, once again, alone at this critical and deeply emotional moment, which is broken up by Hermione screaming at him for risking exposure.

Finally, it was H/Hr who took a ride on a Hippogriff to save Sirius.

"Oh, I don't like this...I really don't like this."

I'm sure I don't need to bring up the "But it wasn't the same with Hermione" bit from Goblet of Fire, so let's move on....

Note #8 – No matter how much hate mail she got or taunts she endured, Hermione never denied the rumors she was Harry’s girlfriend.

But Harry certainly did (at least with Mrs. Weasley), and she didn't seem overly distressed about it.

Note #9 – Ron at one point actually asked Hermione if she was brewing love potions. It’s possible even Ron has noticed the H/Hr connection. If not, why else would he asks such a thing?

Because he's in denial about the depth of his own feelings, and seeking some outside explanation? (I never said it had to be a nice reason.)

Order of the Phoenix:
I can totally understand why Hagrid went to get Harry, but did Hermione really need to go as well?

Hagrid likes Hermione. He's impressed by her intelligence, and he was apparently a source of support for her during the period in Azkaban when she was estranged from both Ron and Harry; after all, he was the one who attempted to talk some sense into both the boys about how badly they were abandoning their friend. Besides, as both Ron and Harry well know, she's never been overly impressed by Quidditch, and she's not about to fake an interest to endear herself to a guy. Why choose the friend apparently in immediate need over the one she can actually help more by not watching him?

Note #10 – The text describes a shaking and whimpering Hermione clinging to Harry as he protects her from Grawp’s outstretched hand. Try to picture the image of a terrified Hermione being protected in Harry’s arms. Not very platonic looking is it?

Depends. I can see it as romantic. I can also see it as a little sister turning to a big brother for comfort.

Harry will be bigger than a legend, so will Hermione and everyone else who played a part. However, considering it was always H/Hr together (in some form) who defeated Voldemort and his DE’s time and time again, it’ll be H/Hr who’ll be in demand for interviews, discussions, teaching posts, etc. Yes Ron did play a small part in some of these adventures, but at a certain point, he can’t talk anymore because he wasn’t there to share in the full experience with H/Hr.

Okay, maybe I can bring in the Harry always being alone in the end thing here. Unless the final conflict plays out in a different manner from all the others, I have a very, very hard time believing that the public will view Hermione's accomplishments as being on the same level as the famous Harry Potter. She and Ron will always be lumped together as the great hero's best friends.

Besides, given the healthy distrust of the press all three have built up over the past year or two, how likely are they to give detailed interviews anyway?

[sone]

"No matter how much hate mail she got or taunts she endured, Hermione never denied the rumors she was Harry’s girlfriend.

But Harry certainly did (at least with Mrs. Weasley), and she didn't seem overly distressed about it."

Harry had to, almost desperately at one point considering Krum was glowering at him because Hermione kept talking about him often. The rumor that Hermione "played Harry Potter false" eventually led to her hands being bandaged and filled with puss *uuuggghhhh* Mrs. Weasley (and she certainly believed they were a couple) was particularly cold to Hermione. Somebody had to say something.

EDIT: Of course Hermione wouldn't be distressed about it after Mrs. Weasley was being more kind to her.

[Turambar]

Mutant: So Hermione is a "nice, sensible" girl now? Not a bossy, deeply insecure person, wrong about so many things....

[Ame]

:D Turambar, don't sound so harsh... I'm sure all he meant was that's how Mr. Weasley would see it. ;)

Honestly, the girl can take on many faces... can't she? ;)

:clappy: BTW, great post GilyAnn and Rowena...

[GryffindorGal]

There is a lot of reasons for JKR to hide this scene in the eyes of Harry and Hermione. What is it that G.waters says: If she interrupts something she is hiding something. Something along those lines. She did often in this book. She had them get to the match but interrupted them. >>>


You just confirmed the Hawk's Theory of Interuption. Even quoting a source for said theory. Thanks :-)

[BabyMars]

Originally posted by GryffindorGal (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477329#post477329))
You just confirmed the Hawk's Theory of Interuption. Even quoting a source for said theory. Thanks :-)


Yes, thank you very much!! ;)

Cheers :smooch:

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Turambar (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477269#post477269))
Mutant: So Hermione is a "nice, sensible" girl now? Not a bossy, deeply insecure person, wrong about so many things....

I'm talking about Arthur Weasley's perspective.

And I'm willing to back down on the deeply insecure part. Which is not to say that she isn't insecure on some things.

And yes, she is a bossy person. JKR uses the adjective "bossy" to describe her behavior repeatedly.

And to further contradict the accusations levied against me, I admit that quite a bit of the time she's been right about matters. I just don't think she's right all the time. There are some places such as SPEW where she's moving into dangerous territory.

[GilyAnn]

1. Hermione didn't get left behind, she was forced to turn back. There's a difference.
2. They didn't know if Ron was badly injured, Harry just hoped he wasn't.
3. If JKR has been building r/hr since the beginning, why not use that moment to reinforce the bond between them?

1. She wasn't there she was left behind, forced or any other synonim as Ron to be left behind.
2. Harry would have been an idiot is he stopped to see if Ron was ok. Time is precious.
3. I believe that JKR said showed Hermione's concern when she made Harry reassured Hermione that Ron was ok. That was more than enough.

Hermione held all the answers literally in her hand.

She wasn't there when the action was happening. CoS is a book that it was H/R.

1. And JKR had H/Hr ride a symbol of love in a moonlite night while they were at it.

While Hermione kept on saying 'I don't like this' I don't like this at all.'
That was disscoussed a few pages back.

The only thing I said about the end of GoF was that Harry was saved by the summoning charm which Hermione taught him during the period he and Ron weren't talking.

Also was brought before. Harry was saved by the shadows, by having the same core wand as Voldemort, by the phoenix song lost of things played in Harry being lucky on escaping Voldemort. Not Hermione and the summoning charm.

You just confirmed our 'interuptions theory'. Thank you very much.

G.waters would be upset if he hears you claimed that as an original. An no I did not. I simply said that he will probably say so and in this part JKR obviously didn't want neither Harry or Hermione seeing the game. Harry not to see Ginny flying and catching the Snitch on Cho's face and then Cho having a nervous breakdown over it. Hermione seeing Ron play.

Why did Harry and Hermione have to go into the forest? Please clarify.

Either my post wasn't read or I didn't make myself clear enough. I clearly stated that book 5 was still a book to early to make all those things happening. Hermione watching Ron have sucess on that was a step to advance. We are still on book 5.

1. Why did she have to split the trio?
2. Why not show H/G working together?
3. Why not show R/Hr working together?
4. Are you saying Ron can't carry Hermione? If so, how do you know that?
5. Hermione got knocked out eventually, but at least she helped before she was. Ron was rendered useless.

1. It's obvious to me that Harry had to be with Neville and she needed someone slow that wouldn't catch to neither Ginny or Luna's actions. Prophecy was about Harry and Neville.
2. This is a book were the action is by Neville and Harry. The prophecy is about them. Why put H/G toguether if the prohecy has nothing to do with them.
3. I already explained that in 1.
4. I already explained that in 1. Also we are on PoV we wouldn't see them working toguether because Harry wouldn't be there.
5. So did she. Ron also did his part.

1. They were ALL behind Harry, but he only reached for Hermione.
2. Show me where it says Hermione just stood there frozen.
3. Where's the cannon that states Hermione tends to freeze up when she's afraid?

Hermione was the one standing there and Harry 'dragged' her forward. In SS she frozed on the Troll. In PoA she was scared to death in the hipograff. Hermione just get's nervous. Lot's of people do that. Just because Hermione is smart it doesn't mean that she'll be good at everything. Hermione is great at books but on the dueling part she get's nervous. It's normal Heck I would be if were her.



1. Ron is not included in all the action as I so clearly pointed out.
2. Mirror of Erised has nothing to do with my essay.
3. Hermione and Ron are already important, but Ron's role is dimishing.
4. Of course Harry will be the one they'll be looking for, it's his story.


Yes he is. Just because H/Hr shippers don't see it doesn't meant that he isn't there. Ron's role as Mutant pointed in another thread would be a very important one he is becoming more important not only in Harry's life but he is starting to become a great person on his own.

There's no emotional bond between H/G. There share a sort of similar experience of being used by Voldemort, but that's not a bond.

In the H/HR point of view off course.

1. Ron isn't a moron per se, he's just not on H/Hr's level. As a matter of fact, I clearly said no one else is.
2. Ron's not humble. He craves attention and revel's in it.
3. If he's so intelligent, why is he always copying off of Hermione?
4. Ron's a diplomatic person!?!

Ron is a very smart kind of guy. Neither Harry or him have Hermione's intelligence. If anything Ron demostrated in this book that he doesn't crave attention that he only wants a path on his own and clearly he is on his way to achieving it. Both him and Harry copy and let Hermione check their homework. Ron is not the only doing that. Harry does too but he let's Ron ask Hermione. He knows that she will check both of their work as usual. I already answered a gave the definition of diplomatic. And yes he is. Again just because H/Hr shippers don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.



1. No, R/Hr are the ones headed towards the problem when Hermione tells Ron she doesn't like him that way.

Hermione is showing sings since GoF of liking Ron and she did so in also in this book. While I may not like the pair it is clear to me that JKR is putting them toguether, regardless of what anybody thinks.

Gily Ann

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
But that's just it. They don't move together. By nature of their movements, they're diametric opposites. It's easier for a knight, with its blend of horizontal and diagonal movement, to intercept either of them.


I would say each piece fills in the gap of the other thus creating the perfect set of companion pieces which can cover the entire length of the board (the Queen). However, I can see you missed the overall point of the symbolism I was trying to convey.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
It was on Ron's suggestion (or willingness to express what everyone else seemed to be thinking) that the trio undertook their investigation of Malfoy. The fact that proved a dead end is irrelevant; clearly Hermione took the possibility seriously enough to risk brewing a potion that would surely have led to serious consequences for the trio were it discovered.


Suggesting Draco was not a stretch. If that's the sum total of Ron's contribution, then I guess we can always count on him to suspect the obvious.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
But it's always in every way. At the crucial moment, no matter who he's been with up to that point, Harry is always alone.

That's more of an anti-shipper point, though, so I'll save it for some other time.


Ultimately it's Harry's story, so yes at some point he's going to be alone. But why does JKR have Ron miss so much? she doesn't do that with Hermione and that's my point.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
You say "talking," I say "Hermione lecturing Harry on the importance of not being seen."


Harry wanted to alter the past. Hermione warning against doing so doesn't change the fact they were able to talk to each other.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
And Hermione didn't give him much of a reason not to be, did she? He basically ended up wishing he hadn't said anything.


Show me the text where it says Harry wishes he hadn't told Hermione he saw his dad. There's no cannon proof of this in JKR's text.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
And note that Harry's, once again, alone at this critical and deeply emotional moment, which is broken up by Hermione screaming at him for risking exposure.


When Harry's about to leave her, Hermione warns him not to interfer. She does NOT scream at him. Are we talking about the same book?


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
"Oh, I don't like this...I really don't like this."


Yeah, you're right. Hermione hates touching Harry so much that JKR has her do it all the time.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
I'm sure I don't need to bring up the "But it wasn't the same with Hermione" bit from Goblet of Fire, so let's move on....


I'm sure I don't need to bring up that your isolating that line without taking into account the surrounding scenes and how tough Harry's life at Hogwarts was at that time.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
But Harry certainly did (at least with Mrs. Weasley), and she didn't seem overly distressed about it.


Did I ever say Harry didn't deny it? No I didn't.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
Because he's in denial about the depth of his own feelings, and seeking some outside explanation? (I never said it had to be a nice reason.)


Or he's just mistrustful of his friends. Love potions is a manipulative thing to do and to suspect Hermione of doing so is insulting to her character - especially since it was a Slytherin girl who accused Hermione in the first place. Ron should've known better. No excuse.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
Hagrid likes Hermione. He's impressed by her intelligence, and she was apparently a source of support for her during the period in Azkaban when she was estranged from both Ron and Harry; after all, he was the one who attempted to talk some sense into both the boys about how badly they were abandoning their friend. Besides, as both Ron and Harry well know, she's never been overly impressed by Quidditch, and she's not about to fake an interest to endear herself to a guy. Why choose the friend apparently in immediate need over the one she can actually help more by not watching him?


Which still does nothing to explain why JKR didn't build on a possible big time r/hr moment.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
Depends. I can see it as romantic. I can also see it as a little sister turning to a big brother for comfort.


Yeah, just like little sisters give their brother a good luck kiss before a big game.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
Okay, maybe I can bring in the Harry always being alone in the end thing here. Unless the final conflict plays out in a different manner from all the others, I have a very, very hard time believing that the public will view Hermione's accomplishments as being on the same level as the famous Harry Potter. She and Ron will always be lumped together as the great hero's best friends.


Everyone involved in bringing down Voldemort will become famous. Once word gets out that Hermione (a Muggleborn) was so important to the cause, she'll instantly become a role model for young witches everywhere. she's the only female in the trio which defeated Voldemort. Based on that alone, she'll get lots of press. Ron is the one who will suffer.


Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
Besides, given the healthy distrust of the press all three have built up over the past year or two, how likely are they to give detailed interviews anyway?


You do realize that was an 'imagine' if this pattern holds up type of scenario right?


Ame - It seems r/hr shippers have Hermione's face, personality, motivations, character, emotions and awareness change from day-to-day. That's why Turambar said what she did.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Mad Eye Mike (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477373#post477373))
Ame - It seems r/hr shippers have Hermione's face, personality, motivations, character, emotions and awareness change from day-to-day. That's why Turambar said what she did.

Or I could make a comment about the open-mindedness of other folks. My views on Hermione have shifted. At first I thought she was arrogant. Then I thought she was insecure. Now I'm starting to see her as a little insecurity on some points and a lot of arrogance on others. Some things can't be attributed to compensating for being insecure.

I also used to think Hermione was not interested in Harry. Then after reading some of the folks here I shifted my attitudes. It was when I did a closer examination again that I realized that the Harry/Hermione people were slanting things in a direction I didn't quite see and there was as much if not more that indicated Hermione had feelings for Ron, she was just frustrated with his being dense about things.

Perhaps someone will come up with some convincing arguments and I'll reconsider my position again. But at this point I think we're hitting the point where we're all going in circles. People read X and think one way. People read Y and think the other way. People see what they want to see. The fact is that Hermione is playing her cards very close to her chest whatever her position is.

People see warmth and they interpret it as either simple friendship or as an echo of something deeper depending on what they want to see. People see two characters fighting and they either see it as superficial, the clash of minds indicating how well suited they are for each other, or as a fundamental sign that the two aren't right for one another.

The significance of Ron versus Hermione to Harry depends pretty much on what you want to see. There are arguments in both directions, and for that matter, comparing their time with Harry to some extent is like comparing apples and oranges. Each is important to Harry in different ways.

I think some people are pushing the symbolism thing too far. It's like the man who warned Harry away from the book of death omens. You don't want to read it because you'll start seeing them everywhere. People want to see things so badly they start reading symbolism into things. I won't say there is symbolism, but one needs to be careful about reading every little thing as a symbol. Sometimes a cigar is probably just a cigar.

[Ame]

Mike - But the point is not how many times you claim that R/HR shippers change Hermione (Though I don't agree with that at all...), the point is that Mutant was refering to how Mr. Weasley may act if Hermione and Ron were to end up together... that's alil, no need to come off so harshly... ;)

Mike - Yeah, just like little sisters give their brother a good luck kiss before a big game.

And just like how a sister can give her brother a kiss after he's experienced a life altering ordeal... :D

[reenyun]

Hi Everyone :) It took a long time to read through all the posts, and all the H/Hr shippers are doing an amazing job defending the H/Hr ship.

I just had a few questions and comments regarding GilyAnn's last post.

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477360#post477360))


1. It's obvious to me that Harry had to be with Neville and she needed someone slow that wouldn't catch to neither Ginny or Luna's actions. Prophecy was about Harry and Neville.
2. This is a book were the action is by Neville and Harry. The prophecy is about them. Why put H/G toguether if the prohecy has nothing to do with them.
3. I already explained that in 1.
4. I already explained that in 1. Also we are on PoV we wouldn't see them working toguether because Harry wouldn't be there.
5. So did she. Ron also did his part.


1. What did you mean by "she needed someone slow that wouldn't catch to neither Ginny or Luna's actions" (it's a serious question and I mean no disrespect)? If you mean that Hermione is slower than Ginny and Luna, I would like to see where that can be found in the book. I don't believe it is written in the book that Hermione is slow.

2. I don't see how that is a relevant point. I mean, I can just as easily say why put H/Hr together if the prophecy has nothing to do with them?


Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477360#post477360))
Hermione was the one standing there and Harry 'dragged' her forward. In SS she frozed on the Troll. In PoA she was scared to death in the hipograff. Hermione just get's nervous. Lot's of people do that. Just because Hermione is smart it doesn't mean that she'll be good at everything. Hermione is great at books but on the dueling part she get's nervous. It's normal Heck I would be if were her.


Gily Ann


I don't think Hermione is any more nervous than the others about dueling. She did quite well in the DoM. She showed good sense by marking the doors with an "X" even under stress, and Harry was impressed by that. She also managed other spells like getting Harry's wand back and locking the doors. Sorry, I would give direct quotes, but I left my book at the office. I could've missed something. Where in the book does it indicate that Hermione is nervous about dueling?

[Grace Granger]

Hello everyone! I'm back, unfortunately, in New York. Where I was welcomed by a bombardment of Haitians screaming at a airport vendor and horns honking left and right due to the ridiculous traffic. Anyway, while in Miami, I flipped through OoP and wrote down all of myH/Hr moments (which I won't be posting here) and commented on some of these moments. I have post-its all over the book! :rotfl:)

Chapter 26 ~ Seen and Unforeseen
Very interesting title isn't it? It's about Harry unexpectedly (didn't foreseen hence unforeseen) that he'd have a dream about being Voldemort when all previous dreams have been about trying to enter that door in the DoM or about ridiculous things. Well this title kept popping up at me and I decided to look through it a bit to see why the title kept grabbing my attention.

Seen: Ron and the Gryffindor team losing to Hufflepuff
Unforeseen: Gryffindor winning the Cup in an upcoming chapter

Seen: Rita's Quibbler story would confirm that Harry was crazy
Unforeseen: Some did and didn't believe he was, but the school started to believe and support him.

Seen: Snape entering Harry's mind
Unforeseen: Harry entering Snape's mind and later on the pensieve (At least, I thought it was unexpected)

Seen: Trelawney being on probation and being sacked
Unforeseen: Trelawney being replaced by Firenze

Seen: Harry talking to Hermione about Cho. Hermione explaining to Harry what he should have said and done. Hermione needlessly stating that Harry should have told Cho that he thought Hermione as ugly. Here I see that Hermione is interested in Harry and is "testing" the waters to see what he thinks of her physically.
Unforeseen: Harry admitting that Hermione is pretty, just using other words to confirm it. What's unforeseen here is Harry admitting Hermione is pretty, of what he thinks of her "subconsciously." Hermione telling Harry that he ought to have said she's ugly was unexpected, as well.

No matter how much I want H/Hr to get together, I couldn't have thought up a cuter way to see Harry admitting to Hermione that he think she's pretty. This to me is unforeseen because where did that comment come from. I know she asked him, but was it from remembering Hermione at the Yule Ball? From getting to know her better? Both? (What does Harry deem as pretty in regards to Hermione?) And why did Hermione put in that afterthought? What was the purpose of it? JKR could have stopped the conversation at "quickly" and then went on to have her say "Harry, you're worse than Ron.... Well, no, you're not..." There was a reason JKR wrote that in and can't think of anything else than to hint at H/Hr. Why have all of that to hint at R/Hr? Useless in my opinion if it is.

US Edition of OoP p. 242 Chapter 12: Professor Umbridge:

In this scene, I see Harry feeding off of Hermione's knowledge and opinions. Because of Hermione, Harry starts to question Umbridge. It's like some of the things they say, the other person's head comes up with an idea, comment or question. It's like they understand what they're saying and they roll with it.

p. 251 Chapter 13: Detention with Dolores:
"Look, you don't understand what it was like after it happened," said Hermione quietly. "You arrived back in the middle of the lawn clutching Cedric's dead body.... None of us saw what happened in the maxe.... We just had Dumbledore's word for it that You-Know-Who had come back and killed Cedric and fought you."

For some reason this confirms to me my question of: What was going through their heads when Harry disappeared? Hermione was freaking out. Rightfully so, but you as shown before Hermione tends to become very emotional when Harry is in danger. And she says it quietly, wonder what that means....probably nothing.

H/H Similarities:
They are both wise beyond their years. Harry produces a corporeal patronus and Hermione can make a Protean Charm.

I also noticed how Harry at times describes Hermione "hitching her bookbag on her shoulder." Reminds me of the Yule Ball/Brawl when we first discovered that she walks around with a lot books to the point that without them she carries herself differently. Perhaps, Harry is subconsciously thinking of Hermione without those heavy books. :D

There you go, nothing important, just little things I picked up while looking at H/Hr moments.

[Sirius83]

*pokes head in*
Ame - except that Hermione didn't do it soon after the ordeal. It was done quite a while after. In any case, let me make a point about the differences between the two kisses.

1) I believe they're both platonic kisses
2) The difference is that JKR wanted to draw special emphasis on the GOF kiss by adding in the something she had never done before bit.

Why would she put this extra emphasis? Simple; while the kiss itself is platonic, JKR wants to draw to our attention the begining of something between Harry and Hermione. Fits in quite well with what she said about the ending scene of GOF being somehting huge in terms of the overall plot. After all, according to my theory, Harry and Hermione's romance will be the downfall of Voldemort.

[Grace Granger]

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477360#post477360))


G.waters would be upset if he hears you claimed that as an original. An no I did not. I simply said that he will probably say so and in this part JKR obviously didn't want neither Harry or Hermione seeing the game. Harry not to see Ginny flying and catching the Snitch on Cho's face and then Cho having a nervous breakdown over it. Hermione seeing Ron play.



Gily Ann



Ironically enough, G. Waters wants us to use his interruptions theory as we read the books so that we can pinpoint that JKR is hiding something from us. HMS Harmony is just using his theory to support H/Hr.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=476830#post476830))
I really do know now we are reading different books.


GilyAnn - I absolutely, positively, 100% agree with you on that. I have nothing left to say.


Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Or I could make a comment about the open-mindedness of other folks.


Or I could make a comment about the tunnel-vision of others. However, I think it's best not to go there for the sake of the thread. Don't you agree?


Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
People see what they want to see.


A well known fact of life, but it doesn't change a constant pattern that has appeared again and again in a book series. Now how those patterns are interpreted yes, but not the patterns themselves.


Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
The significance of Ron versus Hermione to Harry depends pretty much on what you want to see. There are arguments in both directions, and for that matter, comparing their time with Harry to some extent is like comparing apples and oranges. Each is important to Harry in different ways.


Which once again my essay did not focus on. How you misread my essay into thinking I was comparing the time Ron and Hermione spend with Harry is completely beyond me. But like you said, 'people see what they want to see'.


Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Sometimes a cigar is probably just a cigar.


And sometimes it isn't. When JKR says, you need to read deeper to find all the clues, it means you need to read deeper.


Ame - No one is coming off harshly, I'm not sure why you keep saying that. This is a debate thread, people are going to critique each others posts. That's the way it is.

Ame - And just like how a sister can give her brother a kiss after he's experienced a life altering ordeal...

Yeah, Just like no girl likes to be used as a last resort date... :D

[Ame]

:shrug: Okay... I suppose that also seems logical, Sirius83. Well, whatever floats your boat, dear, see it how you want. I agree both kisses were platonic on Hermione's end towads both boy, but it's how the boy's react that I pay attention to. Harry notes that is was something she'd never done before, and Ron blushes furiously and looks stunned beyond words...

:shrug: Well Mike, like I said, whatever makes you happy... but I have been watching this thread for a very long time without posting and you all seem rather catty towards each other. There's just so much tension... you know what I mean? But hey, that's just my take...

:rolleyes: Anyway, much peace everbody, I'm off for the night...

[Turambar]

Mutant: You are entitled to change your opinions as everyone is, but I made the comment based on previous posts of yours I have read, including your post in the thread you created on Hermione. And thanks for clarifying your position on Hermione being "nice and sensible". It wasn't clear to me that you meant it from Arthur's perspective, not your own.

[BabyMars]

Originally posted by Ame (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477436#post477436))
:shrug: Okay... I suppose that also seems logical, Sirius83. Well, whatever floats your boat, dear, see it how you want. I agree both kisses were platonic on Hermione's end towads both boy, but it's how the boy's react that I pay attention to. Harry notes that is was something she'd never done before, and Ron blushes furiously and looks stunned beyond words...


Yes but we already know that Ron has a crush on Hermione. That's not what we're trying to debate here. Hermione is the mystery. Like Mutant for Hire said, she's holding her cards close to her chest. You have to read and analyze the text carefully to figure out JKR's clues. And although Ron blushes furiously (which would make sense because Ron DOES have a crush on Hermione), JKR throws us the red herring when Hermione kisses Harry, doing "something she has never done before" (*also note that the chapter title during the h/hr kiss is called "The Beginning". Possible clue?)

Cheers :smooch:

[Perdita]

Originally posted by GilyAnn (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477360#post477360))
1. She wasn't there she was left behind, forced or any other synonim as Ron to be left behind.
2. Harry would have been an idiot is he stopped to see if Ron was ok. Time is precious.
1. I believe that JKR said showed Hermione's concern when she made Harry reassured Hermione that Ron was ok. That was more than enough.

Gily, I think you’ve misunderstood. Based on circumstance, Hermione was forced to part with Harry in the end, that is true. However, the point Mike was trying to make was the Harry and Hermione both moved forward without Ron, even if it is just for that one potions test. They shared a moment that was just between the two of them. If Rowling wanted to build up R/Hr, she should have had Hermione insist on staying behind with Ron.

She wasn't there when the action was happening. CoS is a book that it was H/R.

Again, I think you’re missing the point that MEM was trying to make. Even though Hermione was petrified in the hospital wing, she was the one who figured out the clue about the pipes. Even while she was incapacitated, Rowling did not allow the reader to forget about Hermione by having Harry discover the piece of paper in her hand. Compare this to Ron at the DoM, where he was also incapacited but he was not able to help at all.

While Hermione kept on saying 'I don't like this' I don't like this at all.'
That was disscoussed a few pages back.

Yes, it was discussed a few pages back. H/Hr shippers also responded with the argument that in spite of her fears, Hermione and Harry got the job done. Also, Rowling makes it clear an image of a girl holding on to a boy, drawing a sense of security from him. It is not only a physical connection, but also an emotional one. The setting of the event only intensifies the romance of that scene.

Also was brought before. Harry was saved by the shadows, by having the same core wand as Voldemort, by the phoenix song lost of things played in Harry being lucky on escaping Voldemort. Not Hermione and the summoning charm.

Ginny, go re-read the book if you must. If Harry had not summoned the portkey into his hand, the DEs would have caught up with him and that could have been the end of Harry. The wand core is irrelevant in the case of Harry being recaptured by the DEs who were closing in one him.

G.waters would be upset if he hears you claimed that as an original. An no I did not. I simply said that he will probably say so and in this part JKR obviously didn't want neither Harry or Hermione seeing the game. Harry not to see Ginny flying and catching the Snitch on Cho's face and then Cho having a nervous breakdown over it. Hermione seeing Ron play.

No one said that this is an original theory by the H/Hr shippers. The fact of the matter is that we have used this as an argument for a long time. BTW, this is what you said and I quote: “What is it that G.waters says: If she interrupts something she is hiding something.�

Either my post wasn't read or I didn't make myself clear enough. I clearly stated that book 5 was still a book to early to make all those things happening. Hermione watching Ron have sucess on that was a step to advance. We are still on book 5.

I quote you now: “Easy because book 5 is still too early to start putting pairings. There is a lot of reasons for JKR to hide this scene in the eyes of Harry and Hermione. What is it that G.waters says: If she interrupts something she is hiding something. Something along those lines. She did often in this book. She had them get to the match but interrupted them. She took them to the forest because she didn’t want Harry and specially Hermione to see how was it that the rest of them were going to free themselves. JKR kept Ron because Ron is the slowest one of all (I agree that sometimes he tend to be a little dense) and either Neville or Ginny were going to do something that JKR wanted them to prevent them from seeing. Notice how surprised Harry seemed that they R/G/N/L free themselves. She avoided this because Harry is our point of view and Hermione is smart and would have notice anything abnormal. BTW none of this has anything to do with romance.�

I’m sorry, but it appears that you’re not responding to what Mike is asking, and you’re making other claims, and I find it very difficult to follow your line of argument. Perhaps you can try again? Sorry, Gily, I’m not trying to be rude, but I really can’t figure out what you’re saying here.

1. It's obvious to me that Harry had to be with Neville and she needed someone slow that wouldn't catch to neither Ginny or Luna's actions. Prophecy was about Harry and Neville.
2. This is a book were the action is by Neville and Harry. The prophecy is about them. Why put H/G toguether if the prohecy has nothing to do with them.
3. I already explained that in 1.
4. I already explained that in 1. Also we are on PoV we wouldn't see them working toguether because Harry wouldn't be there.
2. So did she. Ron also did his part.

1. Why not put Ginny with Neville and Harry?
2. Yes, but this would have been a great opportunity to shine the spotlight on the H/G ship, if that is what Rowling intends to pursue in the future books. She has to lay some more foundation for it, and this would have been a great opportunity. That’s all we’re saying. As is, Rowling passed it up.
3. But the same thing applies. If Rowling wanted to build up R/Hr ship, she should have used this ordeal to strengthen the bond between Ron and Hermione, whether that be a harmonious or a tense bond, it’s still a bond. As is, all we have is Harry stressing over Hermione and the fact that he’s lost without her help.
4. Again, Rowling is the writer and if she wants to portray that, she can find a way to work it into the plot. She chose not to.
5. Ron did his part? What did he do exactly besides making himself another liability for Harry?

Hermione was the one standing there and Harry 'dragged' her forward. In SS she frozed on the Troll. In PoA she was scared to death in the hipograff. Hermione just get's nervous. Lot's of people do that. Just because Hermione is smart it doesn't mean that she'll be good at everything. Hermione is great at books but on the dueling part she get's nervous. It's normal Heck I would be if were her.

I think you’re missing the point Mike was trying to make, again. In moments of stress or danger, Harry’s instinct is to grab for Hermione to keep her close to him. Why do you think that is? Maybe because off all the friends who are with him, Hermione is the most important to him.

Also, by suggesting that Hermione froze at that moment, you’re making an inference that isn’t based on what the book says. However you interpret that gesture on Harry’s part, the fact of the matter is, he grabbed for Hermione, not Ron or Ginny. If Rowling wanted to suggest that Harry might like Ginny, to show that he cares about her well-being would be a good start. As is, he only cared about Hermione in a moment of crisis.

Yes he is. Just because H/Hr shippers don't see it doesn't meant that he isn't there. Ron's role as Mutant pointed in another thread would be a very important one he is becoming more important not only in Harry's life but he is starting to become a great person on his own.

I’m going to ignore that snarky comment.

Ron hardly did anything in the DoM. Can you name what he did that was of significance to the cause? However his role might increase in book 6, the fact of the matter is that there are 3 instances in OOTP when Ron is out of the action. Go back to Mike’s original post for details.

In the H/HR point of view off course.

No, it’s not just our view, Gily. Rowling and Ginny herself made that quite clear in the book. Their experiences were different. So different that Harry couldn’t even recall that she was ever possessed by Riddle. That constitutes as an absence of a bond of any sort.

Ron is a very smart kind of guy. Neither Harry or him have Hermione's intelligence. If anything Ron demostrated in this book that he doesn't crave attention that he only wants a path on his own and clearly he is on his way to achieving it. Both him and Harry copy and let Hermione check their homework. Ron is not the only doing that. Harry does too but he let's Ron ask Hermione. He knows that she will check both of their work as usual. I already answered a gave the definition of diplomatic. And yes he is. Again just because H/Hr shippers don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

He doesn’t crave attention? He was bragging to Harry and Hermione about the game he helped to win. He was playing with his hair trying to get the attention of the Hufflepuff girls nearby.

Again, Mike was referring to how Harry and Hermione use their sharp minds to solve problems and puzzles, not academic intelligence.

Again, he definition of “diplomatic�:
Diplomatic:
·careful, considerate, delicate, discreet, judicious, polite, politic, prudent, sensitive, subtle, tactful, thoughtful, understanding.

Explain to me how Ron has been careful, considerate, delicate or discreet etc. with Hermione’s feelings at the Yule Ball? Remember when Hermione said that Ron was tactless for not getting the clue from Cho that she wanted to have a private word with Harry at the beginning of OOTP?

Hermione is showing sings since GoF of liking Ron and she did so in also in this book. While I may not like the pair it is clear to me that JKR is putting them toguether, regardless of what anybody thinks.

Gily Ann


Ah well, that’s personal preference so I’ll leave it alone.

[Sirius83]

Ame: But Ron's feelings aren't in question here...what we say is Hermione doens't return them. Also, Harry has shown that he can consider Hermione as more than simply a friend. That's a good start right there. Considering he's been occupied with Cho for 3 books, JKR sure made it a point to show us H/Hr interaction...a lot of it actually.

[Daveydee]

Mike,

Very good post - you've clearly worked very hard. Whilst I consider the detail of it, here are some statistics that hopefully will explode this myth that Ron is being progressively weaned out of the core of the trio.

This is a scene by scene breakdown of all the books, indicating the time alloted in the text to Harry's respective interactions with :

a)Hermione and Ron
b)Ron only
c)Hermione only
d)With others or on his own.

................H/Hr/R.........H/R...........H/Hr..............H alone/others

PS/SS.........27%..........30%...........24%.................19%

CoS............31%..........29%...........18%.................22%

PoA.............26%..........27%...........28%.................19%

GoF.............21%..........24%...........23%.................32%

OotP............24%..........22%...........22%.................32%

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by Ame
I agree both kisses were platonic on Hermione's end towads both boy, but it's how the boy's react that I pay attention to. Harry notes that is was something she'd never done before, and Ron blushes furiously and looks stunned beyond words...


Nowhere does it say Ron blushes furiously and looks stunned beyond words. It simply says he looked puzzled and then distracted. You can find it here:

Chapter 19 - The Lion And The Serpent - page 404 - U.S. edition

But hey, whatever floats your boat dear. :rolleyes:


Ame - Everyone else seems content with the thread so I don't know what to tell you. Peace.

[BabyMars]

Originally posted by Daveydee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477460#post477460))
Mike,

Very good post - you've clearly worked very hard. Whilst I consider the detail of it, here are some statistics that hopefullt will explode this myth that Ron is being progressively weaned out of the core of the trio.

This is a scene by scene breakdown of all the books, indicating the time alloted in the text to Harry's respective interactions with :

a)Hermione and Ron
b)Ron only
c)Hermione only
d)With others or on his own.

H/Hr/R H/R H/Hr H alone/others

PS/SS 27% 30% 24% 19%
CoS 31% 29% 18% 22%
PoA 26% 27% 28% 19%
GoF 21% 24% 23% 32%
OotP 24% 22% 22% 32%


Care to explain what mathmatical formula you used to get those numbers? They don't look accurate to me.

[Daveydee]

Originally posted by BabyMars (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477468#post477468))
Care to explain what mathmatical formula you used to get those numbers? They don't look accurate to me.


No formula, no tweaking or factoring - just a straight forward page count.

[reenyun]

Originally posted by Daveydee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477474#post477474))
No formula, no tweaking or factoring - just a straight forward page count.


Page count... interesting. Did you factor in what actually happened on the pages that you counted, or did you just look for their names? If you didn't factor in what happened on the pages, then it doesn't have anything to do with future romance/love.

[Ame]

:sigh: Well, Mike... I knew Ron did something... :lol:... I apologize for not memorizing the book page by page...

... And yes my boat is floating! ;) :lol:

Daveydee, I just wanted to wow on the page count thing! I've never seen anything like that... :wow:

[Mad Eye Mike]

Originally posted by Ame
:sigh: Well, Mike... I knew Ron did something... :lol:... I apologize for not memorizing the book page by page...


Oh Ame, don't take it that way...:no:...It's not necessary to memorize the book page by page. Simply quoting cannon correctly will more than suffice. ;)

[Hermes]

Page counts?

Page counts hold no bearing within the timeline of the book. To an author a page can cover a day or a year if they so choose.

For instance, in GoF, Harry and Ron stop talking the night the Champions are chosen...its 79 pages until they make up. And less than a month from October 31st till November 24th when they finally make up.

Why is this? Its because a minute can take a page to write...an hour can take ten pages. When you write you can spend an eternity within a single moment if you so wish. Page numbers do not equal time spent no matter how you look at it.

If you want to go through and make a timeline using dates given from within the book to establish time spent together then by all means. That is far more accurate than a page count.

[GryffindorGal]

Originally posted by Ame (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477436#post477436))
:shrug: Okay... I suppose that also seems logical, Sirius83. Well, whatever floats your boat, dear, see it how you want. I agree both kisses were platonic on Hermione's end towads both boy, but it's how the boy's react that I pay attention to. Harry notes that is was something she'd never done before, and Ron blushes furiously and looks stunned beyond words...


Yep G. Waters theory comes into play again Harry is interrupted by the twins. . .

And in OotP a second kiss is hinted at "And you, Harry --" (Rowling knew what those dashes would stir up ;-)) And you, Harry -- WHAT!?!?. The next thing that we are aware of is Ron snapping out of it. . .no thoughts or observations at all from Harry between Hermione's words and his noticing Ron. As if his own brain shorted out for a moment and he regained his senses just as Ron did.

[reenyun]

Originally posted by GryffindorGal (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477537#post477537))


Yep G. Waters theory comes into play again Harry is interrupted by the twins. . .

And in OotP a second kiss is hinted at "And you, Harry --" (Rowling knew what those dashes would stir up ;-)) And you, Harry -- WHAT!?!?. The next thing that we are aware of is Ron snapping out of it. . .no thoughts or observations at all from Harry between Hermione's words and his noticing Ron. As if his own brain shorted out for a moment and he regained his senses just as Ron did.


Hahahahahaha... "as if his own brain shorted out for a moment." That's adorable, and I can picture that :D .

[Daveydee]

Originally posted by reenyun (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477484#post477484))
Page count... interesting. Did you factor in what actually happened on the pages that you counted, or did you just look for their names?
We talk about that on a daily basis.

If you didn't factor in what happened on the pages, then it doesn't have anything to do with future romance/love.
Read the entire thread. The notion put forward was that Ron is gradually being sidelined as the books progess.

The statistics show otherwise.

[haycheng]

I do not think the statistic thing is any good. Show up on the page do not mean the reader feel the present of the character. I have posted a post on the main board to see what general popular say about it.

[reenyun]

Originally posted by Daveydee (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477614#post477614))
We talk about that on a daily basis.


Read the entire thread. The notion put forward was that Ron is gradually being sidelined as the books progess.

The statistics show otherwise.


Thanks, I did read the entire thread. I'll explain better (sorry for being unclear). A count of how many pages contain his name doesn't mean anything. You have to factor in, as other people have mentioned, the context. Also, the page count is statistically invalid. Maybe I have taken too many stastics classes in college, but a page count from 5 books of varying length and plot is clearly invalid.

Haycheng already said that showing up on a page doesn't mean the reader feels the character's presence, so I won't go further into it.

BTW, Daveydee, I do think it's impressive that you did a page count. I just respecfully disagree.

[MoF]

Daveydee, your statistic might be right, even when you take the fact that time doesn't flow regularly (a page might be a minute or several weeks) into consinderation, however, whats important is the way Harry and Hermione goes on their own adventures in important scenes near the end of the books when they are battling evil, like MadEye has shown so brilliantly.

I would just like to bring up this quote from Mutant:
But at this point I think we're hitting the point where we're all going in circles.

- Hehe, so true, so true, very wise words.

[Turambar]

Posted by Mutant for Hire:
Okay, as this thread was disgressing in an area, I decided to kick off a
new thread on my views on Ron. The short statement is that the Ron/Hermione dynamic of this book and previous books is about to take a dramatic shift. There is every reason to think that Ron is going to be changing, and quite significantly as well, from book five to book six, in an inverse of the change of Harry from books four to five.

xxxxxx
You brought up the question of Ron's development in relation to shipping so I'm going to reply to it here.
I agree that Ron will be changing in the next book but I see limits on how
significant that will be and how that will effect shipping.

a) While Ron is developing so are other characters.
b) This is Harry's series, not Ron's therefore Harry will remain the most important character and his romance will be the most important in the series.
c) There's strong evidence to suggest that Harry is even more of a priority for Hermione than before.
d) She has gone a book and a half without encouraging Ron.

On development: Ginny for instance developed quite a lot in OOTP but so did Hermione, Harry, and Neville. It isn't a case of Ron suddenly changing and others standing still.
This series is about Harry not Ron so Ron's development cannot be to the extent of overshadowing Harry or threatening Harry's position as the hero of the series. I suspect the fact that OOTP is so dominated by Harry is in part a response by the author to the popularity of Ron as a character. Ron is the sidekick.

Before OOTP people noted in posts on the trio that there had been a pattern of accelerated development for Harry and Hermione in comparison with Ron over POA and GOF. Development in terms of maturity, magical power, skill, importance, closeness.
People speculated that in OOTP Ron might gain much needed development to be nearer their level.
What JKR has actually done is carefully kept a distance between Harry and Hermione on the one hand and Ron.
Ron makes the quidditch team and gains some responsibility as a prefect.

But Harry and Hermione aren't standing still:
a) Hermione thinks up and organises the DA and Harry leads it, teaching the other students.
b) Hermione gets Harry's story about Voldemort out to the public.
c) They jointly discuss, plan and execute the whole rescue bid for Sirius
while Ron follows orders. Harry and Hermione are written as fighting the
final battle together while Ron is apart and ineffective. Ron's last effective contribution to a book's climax was in PS with the chess game.
d) Hermione puts the sneak jinx on the DA list (which no one seems to have devised a cure for judging by the balaclava the victim is wearing on the train journey home), we're told she can do a NEWT-level charm.
e) Harry and Hermione's interaction in OOTP is at the heart of Harry dealing with his anger, recklessness, growing power and the key changes from childhood to adulthood.

I would expect Ron to gain more confidence having been a prefect for a year and finally having success at the end with quidditch. He suffered a dip in confidence this year. He will also no longer have any older brothers around.
But look at how he reacted to his quidditch win: lapped up the attention, enjoyed the fame, ruffled his hair in front of a group of students. We've seen this Ron before, in GOF, when he played up to Fleur and Padma. Isn't it a possibility that with more confidence next year he may branch
out a bit socially and may become interested in other girls rather than Hermione?

If we look at what Ron has 'gained' since PS:
a) An award for the school in COS
b) new robes, a new broom
c) prefect status, quidditch team status
d) fame with helping to win the house cup in PS and COS, being attacked by Sirius in POA, being involved in the lake task in GOF, being prefect, helping to win the quidditch cup
These are all 'advances' (in his view) in measuring himself against Harry. Gaining them may help his confidence but do they make Ron any closer to being attractive to Hermione?

Well for a start we know from her actions and words about Cho that she is observant about boy/girl interactions, discusses them with Ginny, thinks about them, is able to discuss tricky issues with Harry and Ron.
I think we can deduce therefore that she is well aware of Ron's crush on her and is keeping him at arms length. On the one hand she wants to maintain her friendship with him and on the other she doesn't want to encourage him. She uses the letter to Krum and the mention of Krum as a shield against Ron's interest, IMO. She responds with a very neutral word "unusual" when he gives her perfume. The one time that she feels she has to risk him misunderstanding her is when she kisses him. He was in such a bad way that I feel she had to give an extra show of support for him and perhaps distract him.

In OOTP there is less tension between Ron and Hermione so they get on better. That's principally because Ron isn't battling back against her, the way he was in GOF. He allows her to dominate him. With a more confident Ron in the next book would we see that continue? Or would we see a more forceful, louder Ron as he was in POA and GOF? Or have we in fact seen 'angry' Ron in POA and GOF and from now on we will see the more 'mature' Ron who appears to shy away from confrontation with Hermione?

Does Hermione want a boyfriend she can dominate? She was interested in Viktor who was older, famous, an international quidditch player, a champion in an inter-school competition. A formidable character, clearly no pushover and someone with obvious, elite talents. Does this sound like Ron? Then there's her reaction to whenever Harry achieves something: she seems to get as much of a kick out of it as he does e.g. his numerous quidditch wins, her reaction at the end of COS, her reaction at the end of the first task, even her reaction to the reaction to the Quibbler article, the way her face glows in a way that reminds Harry of her passionate fervour over S.P.E.W. when she's thinking about Harry teaching her. I think it's quite clear she wants someone she can respect and admire.

In OOTP Ron appears to appreciate Hermione more but only in terms of how useful she is to him in helping with his homework. Otherwise don't their basic problems remain?

Are they any more mentally in tune than before? Why is it then that JKR makes a point of only Hermione noticing that Harry's scar is hurting and only Hermione and Harry noticing Draco's "dogging" comment or that only Harry is aware of what Hermione is up to when faking tears in Umbridge's office. BTW it says something for Harry and Hermione's rapport that Ginny, Hermione's close female friend, is as much in the dark as Ron about both Harry and Hermione's thoughts on all those occasions.

Is Ron any closer to being Hermione's equal in terms of brain power, magical power or force of personality? Ron is intelligent enough but Harry and Hermione have always been able to think on their feet faster than he can e.g. Riddle's diary, the chamber mystery, Sirius' letter in GOF. As FP pointed out, in OOTP Ron's contribution to the debate over rescuing Sirius was pretty illogical. Hermione simply doesn't show signs of respecting Ron. Yet with Harry she respects him so much she proposes that he teaches her - Hermione? Miss 130 per cent? When the Quibbler article comes out she praises Harry, even though it was her hard work that made it possible.

This is important because Hermione is used to being more intelligent than other students. Yet again is it any wonder she was interested in Krum, an older, experience, mature student. Harry is the only fellow student she knows with whom she feels she can be weaker, can rely on, can cling to for support. She never feels that way about Ron. In their relationship the need runs one way.
And Hermione is the only student Harry can
a) allow to sometimes make decisions for him
b) whose opinion he can sometimes look up to
c) whose loyalty has never been in question
d) whom he knows has some skills he doesn't
e) who will give him the truth even if it's hard to swallow.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Or mothering or not mothering.

The best I can do is to start with the first book.

PS/SS: As Harry the first time meet Hermione. She is rather arrogant thats how the first impression is. But still she seems to be nervous. She speaks very fast and bossy like. Well, annoyed not really. Mothering? Not yet. She knows already more as Harry in this scene. There is even an explanation why Hermione is how she is. She is the very first magic in her family and as such she have to proof she is it worth.
Second impression as she comes back into Harrys and Rons compartment She is interfering or caring how you like it. But I rather think caring because she did help Neville to look after his toad. She went with him through the whole train with him.
How did this happen? First Neville looks into Harrys and Rons compartment and ask after his toad. Minutes later is it Hermione that say 1. Both did ask seperate from each other through the train or 2. Neville asked after he asked Harry and Ron in that compartment where Hermione did sit and the next thing she did was to help him.
For me is this caring.

Later by many examples we see that Hermione follows more the rules and is a know-it-all. But on the other hand unsure about her own knowledge even she did learn all her books by heart she still muttering nervous all spells she learned and look before the first fly lesson into her Quiditch book. For me another sign she want proof herself. I mean she is from her family the only one who can magic that say she is special and its how her parents are that they might want to see that Hermione is really special and just on the paper. Thats why her greatest fear is to get expelled. Imagine you are special get more attention and special books things like all Hogwarts stuff. You learn a new world to know your parents a proud like maniacs and than you got EXPELLED! What a horror! Really, can you face your parents, can you even imagine how disapointment they are? And than you ask why Hermione is a know-it-all?! Lets face it the Dursleys don't care! The Weasleys are all magic, so Ron isn't special. But Hermione thats something different. Her parents do care.

On Halloween The trio got be friend. Between its interest, isn't it? That on the very same day as Harrys parents die 10 years ago he got friend with Hermione. Now the next impression how helpfuly or annoying Hermione is.

It was really lucky that Harry now had Hermione as friend. He didn't know how he'd have got through all his homework without her.

So its not annoying her helping with his homework or keep him going with it. She do now break rules and isn`t anymore that strict like before. Her new friends come very fast very important to her.

COS: In this book we are learning mainly things how the mudbloods stay in this magic world. There isn't really a sign that Hermione is in the slightest way annoy Harry. Not even mothering how often I did read it. All what is in there is that the COS is open again and the trio want to proof Harry isn't the heir. We get again a taste how high Hermione see the teachers though in this book is she wrong to think Lockheart isn't who he seems.

PoA: Here we get the first sign that Hermione might be annoyed but she is more Ron annoying as Harry. Mainly because of the pets is there tension and for no other reason. Hermione study more as ever in this book. Its posible that she wanted again proof herself after a year which was mainly against muggleborns and after a year where she was 2 months knocked out so she had to proof herself again.
The firebolt-fight is the first sign that for Hermione is Harrys savety more important as to be friend with him and know he bring himself in danger. This isn't mothering and not annoying its a question about careing.

GoF: Here are the first steps into a dangerous futur for Harry. Its at the QWC as the most terrible sign from Voldemort did appear on the sky and it was on the QWC as DE did torture muggles. Its normal if Hermione boss Harry forward in this dangerous situation. We already saw how much she want to see him save in PoA and now in GoF is it unlikly or that her doing is suddenly wrong?
She stands on Harrys side without any signs that she would step away from him even she have to suffer under her friendship to him. She don't turn around even it would be better for her by now. Its right she go and keep saying Harry should keep going on the second task and the egg. But again she did saw how a real dragon was after Harry in the first task. What do you expect going to happen in task 2?
About SPEW this was only her doing something what was or is her own doing this has nothing to do with her friendship to Harry and Ron. Off course she get it after she hear about Dobby from Harry and saw Winky but still is her idea and Rons and not Harrys. Harry did understand her doing but still though its to much but didn't say something only once if she going to drop it but she didn't. Between SPEW will be very important for book6 and book7 how we saw already in OotP.

OotP: Now Voldemort is back the one who tried to kill Harry four times now. He is more powerful as ever and Hermiones fear is to lose Harry. That say she has all reason to be annoying and nagging in this book. Because first Harry don't do his homework, how we know its important to do this just because he would learn more about magic and could get better skills. Harry don't do this extra lessons with Snape propably though Hermione seems to get that this mind reading gos both ways. More fears to lose Harry. Than as Harry want to speak with Sirius in a time where DD is away and Harry could get easiely expelled if Umbridge get him and thats quiet easy to happen because Hermione didn't know what the Weasley gonna do.
By the way Harry think she annoy him just because she says things aloud which his very mind did already think about and what he did ignore only a nagging Hermione who is sitting on his side he can't ignore forever and especially not if she at least get him. But he couldn't stop it anymore. Again her doing wasn't mothering it was careing. She want to see him alive and I don't see nothing wrong with it. Not in a friendly way and not in romanticaly way. Because normal girlfriends act exactly like that.

[GilyAnn]

Gily, I think you’ve misunderstood. Based on circumstance, Hermione was forced to part with Harry in the end, that is true. However, the point Mike was trying to make was the Harry and Hermione both moved forward without Ron, even if it is just for that one potions test. They shared a moment that was just between the two of them. If Rowling wanted to build up R/Hr, she should have had Hermione insist on staying behind with Ron.

The hero in the story is Harry and the book is done on his point of view. Hermione did worry about Ron and Harry (the hero) reassure her that he would be ok, so they could continue their journey. So in terms of story she had Hermione worried about Ron the hero reassure her he was going to be ok and she was left at the other sidekick behind and the hero was left alone to face the danger.

Again, I think you’re missing the point that MEM was trying to make. Even though Hermione was petrified in the hospital wing, she was the one who figured out the clue about the pipes. Even while she was incapacitated, Rowling did not allow the reader to forget about Hermione by having Harry discover the piece of paper in her hand. Compare this to Ron at the DoM, where he was also incapacited but he was not able to help at all.

And Harry and Ron were the ones who figured out where the entrance was. Harry and Ron figured out who the girl was, Harry and Ron went down into the chambers, Harry and Ron could have died. Harry and Ron were the ones who did all the work and the action. The action and the story was Harry and Ron. Hermione did her part as the book worm.

Ginny, go re-read the book if you must. If Harry had not summoned the portkey into his hand, the DEs would have caught up with him and that could have been the end of Harry. The wand core is irrelevant in the case of Harry being recaptured by the DEs who were closing in one him

Gily not Ginny. Athough I don't mind the comparison. Yes do the same. The wand core is irrelevant? OMG! It is not! It's the most important part of it. Having the same core wand as Voldemort saved Harry's life. He would have died if it wasn't.

The fact of the matter is that we have used this as an argument for a long time. BTW, this is what you said and I quote: “What is it that G.waters says: If she interrupts something she is hiding something.�

It has exclusitivity? And it seems very clear to me that I said G.Waters.

1. Why not put Ginny with Neville and Harry?
2. Yes, but this would have been a great opportunity to shine the spotlight on the H/G ship, if that is what Rowling intends to pursue in the future books. She has to lay some more foundation for it, and this would have been a great opportunity. That’s all we’re saying. As is, Rowling passed it up.
3. But the same thing applies. If Rowling wanted to build up R/Hr ship, she should have used this ordeal to strengthen the bond between Ron and Hermione, whether that be a harmonious or a tense bond, it’s still a bond. As is, all we have is Harry stressing over Hermione and the fact that he’s lost without her help.
4. Again, Rowling is the writer and if she wants to portray that, she can find a way to work it into the plot. She chose not to.
5. Ron did his part? What did he do exactly besides making himself another liability for Harry?

1. In which part did the prophecy included Ginny?
2. She already has laid the foundation.
3. She already has laid the foundation.
4. She already has laid the foundation.
5. Both of Harry's sidekicks were out of the action.

Also, by suggesting that Hermione froze at that moment, you’re making an inference that isn’t based on what the book says. However you interpret that gesture on Harry’s part, the fact of the matter is, he grabbed for Hermione, not Ron or Ginny. If Rowling wanted to suggest that Harry might like Ginny, to show that he cares about her well-being would be a good start. As is, he only cared about Hermione in a moment of crisis.

Yes it is. And this is an action moment not a romantic moment.

Ron hardly did anything in the DoM. Can you name what he did that was of significance to the cause? However his role might increase in book 6, the fact of the matter is that there are 3 instances in OOTP when Ron is out of the action. Go back to Mike’s original post for details.

I answered that previously. Both of Harry's sideckicks were out of the aciton.

No, it’s not just our view, Gily. Rowling and Ginny herself made that quite clear in the book. Their experiences were different. So different that Harry couldn’t even recall that she was ever possessed by Riddle. That constitutes as an absence of a bond of any sort.

Yes it is a H/HR point of view. Many people who bear no relation to romance see the bond and their experiences.

He doesn’t crave attention? He was bragging to Harry and Hermione about the game he helped to win. He was playing with his hair trying to get the attention of the Hufflepuff girls nearby.

Ron was excited for having done something on his own.


Explain to me how Ron has been careful, considerate, delicate or discreet etc. with Hermione’s feelings at the Yule Ball? Remember when Hermione said that Ron was tactless for not getting the clue from Cho that she wanted to have a private word with Harry at the beginning of OOTP?

Using or marked by tact and sensitivity in dealing with others.

Ron had a change in OoP. From GoF to OoP. Ron mature and started being more diplomatic. He's starting to catch up to his own romatic feelings, so in the romantic area Ron has just started. It will be no time before he catches up to also being diplomatic in that area. After that he realized it and he even spotted that Harry maybe didn't want to go out with cho.

Gily Ann

[Turambar]

Nice post FP.:clappy: Harry and Hermione very much resemble a boyfriend/girlfriend. That was a nice line about Halloween.

[sone]

There is also something important in Ch. 32 Out of the Fire. When Umbridge intends to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry, Hermione gives an obviously fearful exclaimation. Interesting that Rowling did not write in any of the reactions of Neville, Ron, Ginny or Luna to this. Just Hermione's. Rowling did not even describe whether they had looks of fury or fear. No visible signs of more physical movement. Just Hermione shrieking and then in cracked voice saying "no". Personally I think Hermione came up with the plan just after she said "no" in a cracked voice. But only after this, do we see reactions from Ron, Ginny, Luna and Neville. Of course, that was to Hermione's sudden "confession".

[FlyingPhoenix]

Love is patient
Building upHow I did show is Hermiones concern already in PS/SS there for Harry and gos step by step in every book more higher. She do care for Harry.

love is kind
"Harry, we`re really sorry!" said Hermione desperately, her eyes now sparkling with tears. "You`re absolutely right, Harry - I'd be furious if it was me!"
It does not envy
Harry overshadow or is better as Hermione in many things and he is famouse.
it does not boast
She don't rube Harry under the nose she is smarter as him. Hermione screaming at him,"You sloved it! You solved it!"

it is not proud
"Harry, I'm begging you, please!" said Hermione desperatly

It is not rude
Hermione don't call him names even he is yelling at her

it is not self-seeking
Hermione don't use her friendship with Harry Potter.

it is not easily angered,
Through the whole OotP book Harry yells at her though she never react angered.
it keeps no record of wrongs
Don't keep speaking about there fights between H/Hr
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
"You..this isn't a criticim, Harry! But you do..sort of...I mean - don't you think you've got a bit of - a - saving-people thing?" she said.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres
"Harry, I'm begging you, please!" said Hermione desperatly "Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d-do whatever it takes to try and save him."

Don't take it to serious but its worth to try it, isn't it?

[EricaM]

Notice that this is the book that while many say it’s too fairytale because Harry rescues Ginny’s, is the one that jkr says it’s important. Is Ron and Harry who do the rescue. In SS were the three of them who do the action.

Aside from the rescue of Ginny, this is the book where we find out more about Voldemort/Riddle's history, the similarities between Voldemort and Harry, the ability for Harry to call Fawkes to his aid, Harry's Parseltongue ability (and potentially the fact that he's inherited other powers from Voldemort), the ability for the Sorting Hat to provide to Harry what is needed (sort of a prortable 'Room of Requirement'). We also find out how pivotal Hermione is to Harry and that fact that she doesn't 'consciously/physically' have to be there to influence/aid Harry.


Which leads me to my next thought

But it's always in every way. At the crucial moment, no matter who he's been with up to that point, Harry is always alone.

That's more of an anti-shipper point, though, so I'll save it for some other time.

But Harry isn't alone, whose suggestions/knowledge/warnings help him out consciously or not in his time of need? Facing the Sphinx (Hermione's good at riddles), using Accio to escape Voldemort, etc. In OotP, Harry starts to hear Hermione's voice (and takes it's advice), she's the voice of reason in his head (and perhaps this was foreshadowed in the QWC Veela scene). Even when Harry's alone, Hermione is still with him.

Using or marked by tact and sensitivity in dealing with others.

Ron had a change in OoP. From GoF to OoP. Ron mature and started being more diplomatic.

Ron didn't show very much tact in his conversation with Nearly Headless Nick, and, to boot, is oblivious to the fact that he had been, indeed, tactless.

He's starting to catch up to his own romatic feelings, so in the romantic area Ron has just started. It will be no time before he catches up to also being diplomatic in that area. After that he realized it and he even spotted that Harry maybe didn't want to go out with cho.

I don't think that Ron spotted that Harry didn't want to go out with Cho, rather, he spotted that Harry didn't want to ask Cho to go out. That is, didn't want to risk rejection or looking the fool, etc. Perhaps Ron is thinking it'd be nice if the girl you like asks you out instead.


Cheers,
Erica

[Earendil]

One of the biggest arguments used against the H/Hr ship is that Hermione and Ron are both reduced to the same level of "sidekicks", which isolates both of them from Harry and gives the two of them common ground. Mike made a great point in his essay about a tricycle not being comparable to the trio, because, despite common misconceptions, Hermione and Ron are not constantly put on the same level of importance in relativity to Harry. This isn't a case of Harry being the biggest wheel and Hermione and Ron being smaller but congruent wheels to each other, if you will.

It's obvious that JKR cannot put the trio into dangerous situations together all the time, so it follows logic that she must split them into a duo every now and then. The fact is still that Harry and Ron have not been given equal time as Harry and Hermione. If JKR is working so hard to keep Hermione and Ron on the same level of the "sidekicks", why is she progressively showing Harry and Hermione together in the most important and dangerous situations? Why not work it around the story to have Ron accompany them on the Grawp scene? Or, for that matter, wouldn't it have been so much easier to leave Hermione behind to watch Ron win the Quidditch Cup and allow Harry to go into the forest with just Hagrid? The scenes that could follow in which Harry could inform Hermione and Ron of the Grawp situation would have been very R/Hr shippy. We could have seen Hermione praising Ron's Quidditch skills to Harry or something. Instead, we saw yet another instance of Hermione and Harry sharing an experience without Ron.

Ron and Harry have a wonderful friendship. We all know that. But if Ron is destined to be with Hermione, why not keep them on more or less the same level of importance to Harry? Why not show more of Harry by himself on dangerous situations, or, if you like, Harry with just Neville in the DoM? I agree that Harry needed to be with Neville in the split in the DoM because of the prophecy, but why did Hermione have to be there. The prophecy had nothing to do with her, so that argument doesn't apply. We are not so mathematically obsessed that JKR needed to have it split three and three; two and four would have been absolutely fine.

JKR passed up an opportunity to develop R/Hr and H/G in the DoM. It can be said that the DoM scene had nothing to do with shipping, and in a literal sense it did not. The problem is still that we have seen possible couples being sufficiently built up even in non-shippy scenes, because JKR is the type of author who lays sufficient groundwork before making something happen. Ron and Hermione could have gone with Luna (perfect way to develop some kind of love triangle or to at least show more of Hermione caring for Ron and Luna having to play second fiddle to Hermione), and put Ginny with Harry and Neville. I don't see the problem this could have caused at all. It would have been an ample opportunity to show the "bond" between them, but it was never taken.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
And Harry and Ron were the ones who figured out where the entrance was. Harry and Ron figured out who the girl was, Harry and Ron went down into the chambers, Harry and Ron could have died. Harry and Ron were the ones who did all the work and the action. The action and the story was Harry and Ron. Hermione did her part as the book worm.

For the sake of nit-picking, Harry figured the Moaning Myrtle part by himself--it clicked with Ron after Harry had suggested it. Harry opened the Chamber while Ron encouraged him. And Ron still needed to be left behind for the sake of the hero fulfilling his mission. Ron provided assistance through his presence and his support, but didn't contribute much in terms of actual concrete help the way Hermione did, even when she was knocked out.

1. In which part did the prophecy included Ginny?

It didn't include Hermione either. Yet she was still put with Harry and Neville, as mentioned above.

2. She already has laid the foundation.
3. She already has laid the foundation.
4. She already has laid the foundation.

GilyAnn, I've read your arguments and the arguments of other H/G shippers numerous times, and I'm still not completely clear on what you call the "foundation" for H/G. I understand and see all the points being made, but I've chosen to disagree. At any rate, would you be able to point me to a good essay or anything that discusses the foundation of H/G? I know you've written one on Ginny, and I wouldn't mind checking it out to better understand where you and the rest of the H/G ship are coming from. Thanks.

On Ron's diplomacy: I need not bring up "Neville, is that your dad? What are you doing here, Neville?" or "You're too scared of the Bloody Baron, Nick...You don't have blood, Nick!" Ron is a very nice boy who is quickly beginning to develop into a very nice young man, but he has a long way to go before he can be considered diplomatic. We have seen him behaving inconsiderately and tactlessly in canon, even as far as OotP, in which he was supposed to have matured. I do agree that he has matured, but not to the point where he has learned to be more sensitive and not say dimwitted things every now and then.

Nice posts, Turambar, Mike, FP, sone, Erica, Perdita and everyone else. I would like to thank FP for making that post on the bottom of the last page--very nice.

Also, thanks to Daveydee for taking the time to do the page count. The statistics cannot logically be applied to the debate because number of pages doesn't necessarily equal number of time spent, but the effort is appreciated all the same.

Hermes, where ya been? Nice to see a post from you every now and then. :D

And finally, WELCOME BACK, GRACE!!! Glad to see you again, and good work on "Seen and Unforseen".

[FlyingPhoenix]

Is rather interest that JKR choice exactly this day to rescue Hermione? I mean it could been everyday and every scenario to get to be friend with Hermione. But no its Helloween.

The very same day as Harrys parents did die 10 years ago, The very day as Harry the odinary boy was chosen to be the-boy-who-lived.
This day as Harrys live started to go upside down. Where he lost the only persons in his live which loved him for what he was. This Person who did give him this special bound of love which saved his live. On this day as he got the scar which will decide if he will life or die.
On this day as his live turned into ten years of unbelovening, into a freak in a world where he not belong.

Not on the train and not as this tree did run through the school late at night.

JKR did chose Halloween for Harry to get the last best friend, to get the trio perfect.

If I do interpret this (its now a little bit far streched) than its like that:

At Halloween JKR did take away love from Harry that was how this book started. Ten years later JKR give Harry that back what she took away from him. This don't say its already there but its like a new start.

I explain 1981 The bound between Harry and his parents ended, they died. This love is only in Harrys veins but don't give him that what he need to be happy, to have hope. Its keep him alive, keep him going. Even by the Dursleys it keep him going, keep him to be good.

1991 Halloween: Hermione, the last best friend steps closer to him makes the trio complett. With this comes a person in Harrys live who cares very different for him as Ron or anybody else. She is interfering don't gos away that easiely that says she is there no matter what. Thats a new quality in Harrys live his relationship to Hermione isn't that easy flowing like with Ron and still can he count on her. On this day Harry got a person which is very emotional. There he got a new different love which starts to building up till we got H/Hr. That say on this day he got something what need to blossom and that what need to do so is love.

Like I say very far streched.

Anyway today is the dogday (thats how we in germany call this day). But this isn't the interest part the interest part is that on this day is the dog star(Sirius) very near to the sun. See the greeks did call the sirius dogstar and JKR did know it, that say JKR dos know greek mythologic and this say again she do know what kind of symbole has the hippogriff.

[Grace Granger]

Just to add on to FP's great post above. Harry was more than likely conceived on or around Halloween. ;)

EDIT: FP, I've been meaning to tell you, but I keep forgetting. Keep Leonardo as your sig because I love that version of Romeo and Juliet. Don't like him, but love the movie!

Thanks for the welcome back Earendil! :D I wish I could be more eloquent in my writing so as to make the Seen and Unforeseen chapter more interesting. Basically, what I wanted to get at was that there are things that happened in that chapter and beyond that we didn't expect to happen. So perhaps something unexpected will happen between H/Hr.

[AvadaKedavra]

Hmmm..... It seems to me that a big focus of the H/Hr argument is placed upon "placement"- i.e. in that Hermione is with Harry in adventures, put there by JKR. I personally think, and I have given my opinion before, that I don't think this is intentional AT all, in that JKR places Hermione there next to Harry to give us clues. It's just JKR going along with the story. If JKR wanted to give us clues, she'd do it other ways- it's so easy- she's the creator supreme after all. :D

As for "touching in times of crisis" argument, I've already offered my opinion on this.

In fact, I think I'll do an essay on the above and explain why I think these arguments do not support the H/Hr cause. Coming to a screen near you soon! :p

But other than that, what other pluses for H/Hr do you have?

A question that was mainly left unanswered by the majority of H/Hrs, but I will ask it again, hoping that someone will answer it this time :)

How will JKR put H/Hr together as boyfriend/girlfriend and write it so that it doesn't detract too much from the main story?

Signing out,

Avada

[~oSiRiS~]

I Dont feel H/Hr will get to gether as bf/gf but one of the 2 is going to die at the end and thier true feeling willl come out...

on a side note
Hermoine never looked at the MIrror of Erised.... wonder what she would see.....

[Furienna]

Ron has been in love with Hermione at least since Chamber of secrets, but there have not been such signs of such feelings for him from her. Therefor, I might be Harry who gets Hermione, and not Ron. Viktor Krum is another option, but I doubt it. If Harry, and not Ron, ends up with Hermione, I would say that Ron ends up with Luna sooner or later. But Harry could end up with Luna too... At least, I don't think, and I absolutely doesn't hope, that anything more happens between Harry and Cho. Cho is not Harry's kind of girl, and she only went out with him to ask about Cedric, and I think Harry has undrstood that she was wrong for him now. I used to think Harry and Ginny could become a couple, but after Order of the Phoenix, I don't feel like I know Ginny anymore. However, it is not impossible that they end up together anyway. Furthermore, I think Draco and Pansy would be a great couple. After all, they did go to the Goblet of fire yuleball together and they are the prefects of the prefects and most popular boy and girl of their Slytherin year. And what happened with Percy and Penelope Clearwater? Are they still a couple?

[FlyingPhoenix]

I have one problem better more as one but this is IMO really a problem with R/HR and H/G. Its not that JKR could write it but I don't know how she want write it. I mean if I look at this five books I don't see really a space for a girlfriend for Harry.
In OotP how often was Cho in this book? How often did you get this feeling she is really, I mean really Harrys girlfriend?

I did not once get this from this book. If you wanna know it was pretty out of place like I get my kiss a little arguieng and thats is it. Its not even 2 or 4 pages from a book what has 776 pages?!

Now let say JKR want H/G write there is the next problem ahead! How bring her more into play as Hermione? This is after 5 books where Hermione plays always a big part not believable. You might say H/G don't need Hermione as a smaller role in book 6! Wait, if Hermione don't get a smaller role than dos this say H/G will be like H/C. We won't see much. To be exactly the most time Ginny isn't there and if she is there than its suddenly romantical. Thats for me a problem. By H/C was Hermione nearlly always there if not personally than she was mentioned only once she was complette out by the kiss and that was it.

By R/Hr is it that problem both are sidekicks and if both sidekicks go in a hero POV book together its like Harry is suddenly seperate from them.

I know by H/Hr would be alike that Ron is out but if I take the route which JKR till now take than its more and more as if Ron gos into the background even if I don't want it so. JKR dos take right now clearly a H/Hr route. She did it since PS/SS and do it now much more. I don't see this space where H/G gonna be happen in book 6 or 7. If I imagine that Harry needed 2 books to recognise Cho or even have enouge corrage to get her, better she get him than I ask how will H/G happen? If he didn't even has any interest in Ginny, don't think about her, don't remember things with her. Thats ther different by Hermione he do recognise her, do remember small things with her, think about her, his very mind speaks like her. There is already a conection which isn't there between H/G.

[GilyAnn]

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=478279#post478279))
Hmmm..... It seems to me that a big focus of the H/Hr argument is placed upon "placement"- i.e. in that Hermione is with Harry in adventures, put there by JKR. I personally think, and I have given my opinion before, that I don't think this is intentional AT all, in that JKR places Hermione there next to Harry to give us clues. It's just JKR going along with the story. If JKR wanted to give us clues, she'd do it other ways- it's so easy- she's the creator supreme after all. :D


This is true!

Now let say JKR want H/G write there is the next problem ahead! How bring her more into play as Hermione? This is after 5 books where Hermione plays always a big part not believable. You might say H/G don't need Hermione as a smaller role in book 6! Wait, if Hermione don't get a smaller role than dos this say H/G will be like H/C. We won't see much. To be exactly the most time Ginny isn't there and if she is there than its suddenly romantical. Thats for me a problem. By H/C was Hermione nearlly always there if not personally than she was mentioned only once she was complette out by the kiss and that was it.

We didn't get more of Cho simply because Harry wasn't much into her. Harry's crush was mainly that a crush. Cho kissing him set his crush on a down hill. Cho failed at Harry's image. JKR can easily integrated Ginny with Harry is not that hard to do. Besides as Harry grows up he may be separating from his two friends.

Gily Ann

[Daveydee]

On Ron Bashing

First off, the statistics from a couple of pages back:

Nothing intended there other than to show that in a purely statistical sense the idea that we all (yes even me) initially had whereby Ron appeared to fade into the background somewhat, is in fact an illusion – and I would even go as far to say a deliberately crafted illusion by JK. But an illusion nonetheless.

What does this illusion represent in reality? A subtle shift.

From Turambar

In OOTP there is less tension between Ron and Hermione so they get on better. That's principally because Ron isn't battling back against her, the way he was in GOF. He allows her to dominate him. With a more confident Ron in the next book would we see that continue?
There is the subtle shift. We have had four years of a constant battle for supremacy between Ron and Hermione. Finally in OotP we see the sands starting to shift. Little by little, but perceptible even so.

Ron will never be another Hermione. And what would we, the readers make of it all, if he were.

I’ve seen a number of recent posts disingenuously claiming that the finale of each of the books is always Harry + Hermione – Ron.

From MoF
…whats important is the way Harry and Hermione goes on their own adventures in important scenes near the end of the books when they are battling evil, like MadEye has shown so brilliantly.

With the exception of PoA, this is simply not the case. And even if it were, what is the big deal? What does it prove? That Hermione is more skilled than Ron at problem solving. That’s not new. We knew that in PS/SS. H/Hr folk do a good job at showing that Hermione is cleverer than Ron and is more quick witted than he in helping Harry to solve his problems with Volemort et al.

If that is what we were debating, we would all be in harmonious agreement.

[AvadaKedavra]

Hi everyone!

I know I haven’t been really ‘in there’ recently, only popping in and out from time to time. Sorry about that, so here’s a decently sized post to make up for it. :D

Placement

As I said before, I noticed how much of you were saying that Hermione was next to Harry on adventures, and demanding why JKR didn’t use this opportunity to develop some R/Hr by having them next to each other in adventures. Or something like that. :p

Anyway, I would like to state what I think about this idea. I think it is not really a strong point to incorporate in the H/Hr argument, because I don’t think it is intentional, in that Hermione was placed by Harry in order to create some romantic clues.

I don’t think that JKR purposefully thinks- “I’ll put in a little clue here for my fans- I’ll put Hermione next to Harry�. I think she just goes with the flow of the story (not entirely, or there would be huge plot holes everywhere!) In some places of the story, I think she just writes contextually, i.e. She may write this because it’s just something that fits in, and not because it has significant bearings on the future. In fact if she did all of that she would have a MAJOR headache. :D

One such example is in the Department of Mysteries. Harry doesn’t have an exact map-like knowledge of who is behind him. All of them are behind him. Correct, so far. When he looks for someone to pass the message on, he finds Hermione’s foot. At this moment at time, Harry knows the exact location of one person, Hermione. So when the reductor curses go off, Harry grabs the robes of someone, whose location he knows of. Harry doesn’t have time to look around and grab Ron, or Luna.

JKR had Harry grabbing Hermione’s robes because it made sense. Harry knew where Hermione was, so she had him grab her robes, because it fitted in. JKR, (to me) didn’t think- Oh, I’ll make another H/Hr clue here- I’ll have Harry grab Hermione. This is despite the fact that Harry indeed has a soft spot for heroics, this is despite the fact that Harry knew that Hermione was there and this is despite the fact that it could easily have been written in for “contextual fitting in�, as I choose to call it. :p

Another point I’d like to make, seeing as we’re still on the topic of placement. The books are written from Harry’s point of view- correct? Keep that in mind. Some people demand why JKR doesn’t put Ron and Hermione together in adventures or develop them in scenes like the Department of Mysteries.

Well, there’s a tiny problem- if they were indeed together in small scenes, then this would be classified as “off the stage�, as Harry’s point of view is the view that the books are written from, and he can’t be with Ron and Hermione if they are “specifically isolated� from him at JKR’s wish (if she wanted to give us some clues, and placed them together). Therefore, even if JKR has deliberately placed Ron and Hermione under the “placement� theory, this is declared void by people saying that it’s off the stage, and it leaves too much to speculation.

That’s fair enough, so even the fact that we are informed that Ron and Hermione are at 12 Grimmauld Place for a significant length of time in the summer, the fact that they are prefects and spend time together away from Harry, is irrelevant due to the “off the stage� problem.

So, if you’re going to dismiss all the R/Hr “placement together� that is off the stage, I will dismiss all H/Hr “placement together�, even if it is on the stage. (Which, by the way, there is obviously a lot more of H/Hr placement together that we actually “see� because it is Harry’s P.O.V, after all)

It is enough that we are “informed� of Ron and Hermione’s placement together, and that there is more “placement� than previous books.

It could be said that there can’t possibly be significant interaction during their placement together because conclusions can be drawn from what Harry does see. But conclusions can be drawn other ways –i.e. the supposed “over-reaction� during the PKA. Here’s one such example.

I could see them sitting in the Common Room and Hermione making the observation aloud that Harry isn't back yet. Ron has a tendency to make flippant comments and jokes that turn out to happen. I could definitely see him making some offhand comment about Harry being late because Harry and Cho are snogging. Maybe then Hermione dismisses his comment- i.e. “Don’t be silly, they could be easily talking�. Then they find out when Harry comes back that Ron's joke was right, leading to an annoyed Hermione and a triumphant Ron.

It makes sense in a lot of ways. However, I’m not saying this is so, just giving an example.

Personally, I don’t think that there has been significant interaction during their “placement� together so far, but I do think that there is a clear precedent for future “interaction� and a rather embarrassing walk in. (Prefect’s bathroom, anyone?)

:p

Hope all of this has been quite helpful. :D

[Cammie]

I'm a firm supporter of R/Hr, and I think that a lot of evidence clearly points to the inevitable "getting together" of my two favorite characters (I won't list any of the evidence, as there are tons of sites devoted to spewing out pages of it if anyone's interested). I think that Harry's position as the ultimate hero means that he is at least somewhat separated from the other two. This is not to suggest that he won't find love somewhere else (Ginny? Luna?), but I really do think that he and Hermione are just best friends. In terms of Hermione being with Harry through a lot of the action in OotP, it all makes sense to me. This book is reinforcing the fact that even though Harry is the hero, Ron and Hermione are vastly important in the fight against Voldemort. Harry's outburst to them when he got to Grimmauld Place really brought this home for me. Hermione's brilliance at several points in this particular book reinforced it even more, and as for Ron, well...Go Ron! Prefect and Keeper, success in Quidditch, and the Gryffindor version of "Weasley is Our King" all point to one thing for me: Ron is coming into his own. He is gaining confidence and ability and will surely prove to be a valuable asset to the war in some way. I see great things in his future.

[sone]

Harry and Hermione have not even been together and yet their relationship is already difficult, well to others anyway. The Rita Skeeter articles, Viktor confronting Harry, Cho getting upset about Harry's friendship with Hermione, and even Ron and Malfoy somewhat. It seems like it has dawned on everybody else except them. Despite this, they have still been growing closer even to the point where Harry is considerably thinking about Hermione. Hermione in turn, started showing signs of jealousy and surprisingly some advances. They're even exclusively and instinctively grabbing for the other in dangerous situations. Need I mention Ron running on that staircase and then falling on the sixth step is kinda where Ron is with Hermione.

[~oSiRiS~]

I dont see neither of the trio getting together....
its obvious they all have feelings for each other.
there is also evidence that harry get jealous when r/hr are together and vise versa.

but if two of them got together
it would break up the trio....
and i dont see JRK breaking up the trio without death being the cause...

[sone]

It will not break up the trio if they are that close.

[~oSiRiS~]

it would definatly make them not as close as they were....

it would also cause either:

in rons case(H/Hr) to be left behind more on things

or

in harrys case(R/Hr) to be alone, with neville...ect.. more of the time.
(which is a possibility)

but i dont see the trio staying together if that happened...

also.... with the NEWTS....witht he knowledge of the prophecy i dont think there is going to be much time for anything major to come out of a romance betweeen the trio.....

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, let's not get too hung up on the trio. The trio, as we know it, is a thing of the past. It was more or less dead at the start of the book, with the inclusion of Ginny, Fred and George. The trio was broken up for the train ride, and Harry spent more time with two old characters and one new character.

In fact, short of one of the six buying it, a simple trend would be for there to be a trio of couples by the end of the series. Which trio of couples depends a lot on which way you think Hermione goes. Everything else tends to chain reaction that way.

[~oSiRiS~]

watch Hr will end up with Nevlle in the end....
they say opposites attract....

[sone]

Originally posted by ~oSiRiS~ (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=478692#post478692))
it would definatly make them not as close as they were....


Well naturally there is a little seperation but that's what happens when you are growing up anyway. Things tend to split a little but that does not mean you still do not have your friends. For those three, it is starting already.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Let see the marauders?! You know they were four best mates and best friends. As James and Lily go together they didn't lost each other. They were still best friends.

I know this trio is different here would it be in this trio, this couple. Still this don't say they seperate. By H/Hr its simply that Ron have to learn he don't get everything what he want or feel. Let say Ron is already suspicious about this two so it won't be that shock for Ron. Its even possible that Ron is the one who get it first. Especially if Hermione is through the whole book5 speaking about Harry if they alone and this impression did I get as they saw each other again at the grimmauld place. Ron learn this in book 6 and thats is it.

This is normal every boy on this planet did learn it so why not Ron, too, if he is already the normal boy than he learn the normal stuff in life and that is he don`t get every girl if he like?! Its mostly that girl where he think its mostly unlike lonly Luna is something like that.

Idon't worry that only growing up nothing more

[Daveydee]

Originally posted by FlyingPhoenix (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=478775#post478775))
Let see the marauders?! You know they were four best mates and best friends. As James and Lily go together they didn't lost each other. They were still best friends.

That is a totally invalid comparison.

The marauders were four guys who hung out together; Lily was not a part of that group. Harry, Ron and Hermione are a trio of best friends in themselves.

[FlyingPhoenix]

That is a totally invalid comparison.

I did say that I know its different as that and that I know Lily wasn't there friend.

Didn't I write it in the very same post where this quote is from?

[AvadaKedavra]

Ron may not get the girl he wants but he may do... The EXACT same applies for Harry

[Mad Eye Mike]

To all shippers:

The focus of my essay was to bring to light a continuous pattern JKR has seen fit to continue in each of her HP books. Amazingly (but not surprisingly), no one is focusing on that point. Instead, I see some have chosen to question points the essay never brought up, such as:

1. The contrast between Hermione and Ron's friendship to Harry
2. Romance
3. Placement (I don't know where the hell this came from)
4. How Harry himself views r/hr
5. Ron's personal growth
6. The similarities between the Dementors and the Ringwraiths
7. How Harry and Neo (Matrix) are both considered 'The One'
8. Why Harry and the Hulk should both take anger management
9. Why OotP is the size of a small brick
10. JKR's summer home

I'm sorry, but my essay isn't open to personal interpretation like the books are. I was pointing out how H/Hr experience things without Ron - that is true if you've ever read the books. However, what you can (and have every right to) disagree with is how that'll affect the trio; What it means in the overall scheme of things; How it might affect the overall plot. Those things you have every right to challenge. But at the very least, please, please acknowledge the essay for what it was saying, not what you want it to say.

I was simply pointing out the pattern of how JKR always separates Ron from H/Hr in crucial situations. Now why she's done so is open to debate.

[Earendil]

Hi, AK,

First, I'm glad to see you posting again. I noticed you haven't been around much. Your post on Placement is interesting, but I disagree (surprise). Here's why:

I don't know if you also write fiction, but I've found that it is implausible and downright impossible to prove with canon to say that an author is not intentionally putting in clues. The simple reason for this is that it must be assumed that everything the author writes is for a reason. I can only speak from my own experience, but when I write I look at every single scene from different angles to understand how it will be interpreted by my readers. JKR, a far more experienced author than myself, is careful enough to understand the ramifications of each scene in relation to the scheme of the series, so it is impossible to prove that she is indeed "going with the flow" as opposed to carefully planting clues. Canon tells us that she is indeed placing clues for us even in the littlest things like placement of position or a slight touch here and there--because we have seen some of her other tiny clues come into fruition. It could have been ascribed to "going with the flow" when she dropped the name Sirius Black in SS/PS or when she had fake Moody mutter that if there was one thing he hated it was a Death Eater who walked free--but we know that even the slightest mention of a name or a remark will usually go somewhere; even if it's only to reveal something as relatively insignificant as a character trait.

It can easily be said that the author does or does not intend something, but it is impossible to prove. What can be proved is that any author will rarely, if ever, mention a name or a specific event unless it will contribute to the general scheme of the story. Example: The DoM, which AK also used.

Harry needs to pass a message onto the rest of the group by subtly catching the attention of one of the other five kids. He reaches around with his foot--And here is where an author will stop and think: Who should Harry find to pass on the message? What will it say about the tone of the scene as well as the connection between characters if I put so-and-so's foot in the right place at the right time?

It's a tiny thing, but I am positive that it makes a difference in terms of development of both the scene and the characters. Often you will find the author who thinks, "I've given this character too much time already--I can always put someone into this tiny little instance to give them more screen time". If that's the case, why Hermione? Was Hermione the first name that popped into JKR's head? Maybe. But we already know that JK is careful; she looks twice at every paragraph she writes and examines it from every angle, the way most authors do.

So, why Hermione? AK already answered why it was Hermione Harry had to pull away from the falling shevles because it was Hermione whose position he already knew--but why did this character have to be Hermione at all? If this is such a tiny and insignificat scene, it would have been just as easy for JK to write Ginny into that role of the owner of that foot he found and the person he drags away from the shelves. Nothing would have changed in the fundamental scheme of the story itself.

It would be giving JKR less credit than she deserves to assume that anything she writes is unintentional. We have seen in canon that even the smallest things will go somewhere--not necessarily to have some deep and profound meaning to the eventual plot twist, but even something so small as to explain some obscure mystery in the future. JKR is a careful and meticulous author, and instead of asking ourselves only why such-and-such happens in context, we also need to ask why the author chose to make such-and-such happen in the way that she did. She can do anything she wants to with the text, and yet she made the conscious decision to write Harry and Hermione together in certain scenes, with or without Ron, showcasing their teamwork and rapport. Do we know if this was intentional? No. But the canon indicates that similar occasions where she is seemingly "going with the flow" have foreshadowed and led up to certain significant events.

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
Well, there’s a tiny problem- if they were indeed together in small scenes, then this would be classified as “off the stage�, as Harry’s point of view is the view that the books are written from, and he can’t be with Ron and Hermione if they are “specifically isolated� from him at JKR’s wish (if she wanted to give us some clues, and placed them together). Therefore, even if JKR has deliberately placed Ron and Hermione under the “placement� theory, this is declared void by people saying that it’s off the stage, and it leaves too much to speculation.

Not necessarily at all. If it was the author's wish to have Hermione go with Ron when the unwitting split was made at the DoM, it would have been all too easy for the reader to see what was happening between them and remain in Harry's perspective. We already saw some of what happened with Ron, Luna, and Ginny when the six of them met up again in the corridor, and even if it happened off the stage we would still find out about it through a third person description to Harry. The off-the-stage argument only applies to the instances in which other shippers claim that R/Hr is being developed in the scenes that we never hear about, such as the summer vacation at Grimmauld Place and the Prefect duties. If JKR had wanted to show Harry isolating himself from the trio and pursuing his own destiny, if you will, she could have taken the very easy opportunity to have Ron and Hermione working together, apart from Harry, in the DoM. Not only would the readers be aware of Ron and Hermione being together in this tense and high-anxiety situation, we would undoubtedly hear some of what happened when their group separated, the way we heard from Luna, except with Hermione in their group instead of Ginny. Again, it's the question of the author's intentions, and her application to the text.

So, if you’re going to dismiss all the R/Hr “placement together� that is off the stage, I will dismiss all H/Hr “placement together�, even if it is on the stage.

This is where you've lost me. Everyone has acknowledged that Ron and Hermione are together off-stage without Harry. What cannot be proven is that anything romantic is happening in said off-stage scenes, because it doesn't occur in canon. How can the sequences that show Harry and Hermione deliberately being placed together, without any reasonable motive such as prefect duties or waiting around for the third part of their trio, be dismissed? And especially since they're occurring on-stage, and can be logically disputed as being either adequate shipping evidence or not?

It is enough that we are “informed� of Ron and Hermione’s placement together, and that there is more “placement� than previous books.

And we don't need to be "informed" of Harry and Hermione's placement together, or that there is more placement than previous books--because we see it happening right in front of us. There is no off-stage problem, as the author has made the decision to put the two of them together on more than one occasion throughout the entire series. If JKR has consciously chosen to show Hermione and Harry being alone in important situations, even when there is an alternative to putting Hermione in the scene that wouldn't significantly alter the text, we must assume that there is some logical reason.

I may also add that it is extremely easy for an author to describe things that are happening between two characters--especially important ones--off stage. If the readers needed to know about it, JKR would intentionally show evidence of Ron and Hermione's progressively maturing relationship through Harry's eyes. This is not a difficult technique to use, and I have complete faith in Rowling's ability to do so.

To summarize, we can only effectively debate what is in canon--including the fact that things are happening off-stage, rather than the actual content of those off-stage scenes. The simple reason for this is that you will rarely find an author who will throw in a name or an event unnecessarily without carefully considering the various interpretations and effects of such a mention, especially when there are other options that wouldn't adulterate the central meaning and would convey a point of future plotlines more effectively.

:welcome: to the thread, cammie and ~oSiRiS~!

[Perdita]

To GilyAnn,

I am sorry for the mistake I made in my post from last night where I typed the wrong name. That was an honest mistake and I meant no disrespect by it.

As for AK's question, the possible solutions:

1. You question assumes that Harry's love story will not be a pivotal plot device, and yet, there are theories being circulated (not only in the love thread) that love will be a major aspect of the fight that leads to victory against Voldemort. In that case, Harry's love story, if Rowling chooses to highlight romantic love, will have no need to worry about being a distraction from the main plot.

2. Supposing that you are correct, that romantic love will not be the driving force of Harry's victory, I expect that Rowling will portray Harry and Hermione temporarily denying their love for one another for the sake of more urgent matters that must be taken care of first (Voldemort). We will see the two of them starting to express their love for one another, but in discreet ways.

3. Instead of portraying Harry and Hermione as an open couple, Rowling could have each of them being aware of their feelings, but unable to act on it. For example, perhaps Harry might want to confess his love to Hermione, or she confess to him. Rowling could continue to use the Interruptions method to prevent the two from ever succeeding before the end of book 7.

[Mutant for Hire]

MEM, no one is saying that Harry and Hermione have experiences without Ron. However Ron and Harry have experiences without Hermione. And there's the fact that Ron and Hermione have experiences without Harry. It doesn't mean anything.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Earendil, awesome post you speak right out my heart and I can curse myself as author.

MFH: Its do mean something. It dos.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Earendil - You continue to floor me with your insightful and brilliant posts. Wonderful! :clappy:


Mutant:
MEM, no one is saying that Harry and Hermione have experiences without Ron.

Actually, I said Harry and Hermione have had experiences without Ron. As a matter of fact, it was the point of my whole essay.

However Ron and Harry have experiences without Hermione.

In terms of generic everyday experiences that mean nothing - yes. In terms of being crucial to the plot - no.

And there's the fact that Ron and Hermione have experiences without Harry. It doesn't mean anything.

When have r/hr experienced anything noteworthy w/o Harry? And since when do shared emotional experiences mean nothing in any kind of relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

[~oSiRiS~]

However Ron and Harry have experiences without Hermione.

Most of these experiences have included Hermoine in one way or another. be it that she wasnt there physically, but she did add something to the experience or was atleast brought up in the conversation.

[Turambar]

Nice posts Earendil.
FP: I like the Halloween theory. In relation to the dog star getting too close to the sun: You probably knew this but Mar Dhea mentioned a few pages back that the planet associated with Harry's star sign Leo is the sun.

[Mar Dhea]

Brilliant posts everyone - as usual!

Anyways. AvadaKedavra, you posed the question:

How will JKR put H/Hr together as boyfriend/girlfriend and write it so that it doesn't detract too much from the main story?

Well, keeping in mind this is only my personal views, I don't see a boyfriend-girlfriend situation occurring per se - I see a moment of realisation, a rush of emotion (yes, I am aware of how 'beautiful' and soppily romantic it is, but JKR, if this is her route, will play it down) and a 'moment' just before the final 'action' scene. I'd write how I'd see it, in book form, but I don't want anyone to be bored/throw up. You know, I see Harry, fresh from this scene with Hermione, going to fight his final battle with Voldemort, this...feeling of love still bright within him to face Voldemort, who finds love repulsive. It wil, in my opinion, be Harry's driving force, his strength to fight, and he will do this for Hermione.

If it goes as it does in my own happy head, then their realtionship will not dtract form the main story because it is the main story. And in my version, no one will endure pet names or squidgy scenes. Which would be altogether easier on the stomach.



And on the topic of the experiences Hermione and Harry share in which Ron is not a part - they are the most meaningful scenes of each respective book.

And, in people's statements that Ron is likely to 'come into his own', what have you - I can imagine that this confidence and new-found independence from the stigma of 'only' being Harry's friend might possibly distance himself further from Harry and Hermione as he engages himself in the pursuits of being a 'social butterfly'. (wait...not 'manly' enough...social moth?)

BTW, I think all H/Hr shippers acknowledge that Harry and Ron's friendship is very important to Harry, as are his friendships with other people - but particularly Ron's and Hermione's. It's a little unfair to point fingers at us and say that we are eager to trash their friendship and make in non-existent when H/G and R/Hr shippers alike try to diminish H/Hr's friendship. Let us all bow our heads at the wonder that is bias - friendly bias. Heh.

[Matt15]

I am a huge Harry/Hermione shipper so I have to say they will get together. She is the only girl left for Harry. She controls Harry's love life. lol. Ron can have Lavender. Seamus can be with Parvati. Dean with Ginny. Cho and Michael will not last.

[Hawk 92]

OK,

First to Earendil When you join the 00 Branch of HMS Harmony there are no sign on bonuses. Sorry. The head of MI6 HMS Harmony keeps telling me that work is its own reward. And the 00 Branch should expect to get rewarded a lot in the future :)

Babymars you're gonning to have to go with 00Mars And Welcome to the 00 Branch.

heychang I think we're going to have to create a special branch of MI6 for you. A double agent branch so to speak. But Welcome aboard MI6heychang. :bigtu:

And last but not least :clappy: :clappy: to Mad Eye Mike, 00FP, Earendil Great to see you back Grace Granger

And a :clappy: :clappy: to Turambar

Now on to topic,

You just confirmed the Hawk's Theory of Interuption. Even quoting a source for said theory. Thanks :-)

It's great to see that the HMS Harmony interruption theory got outside confirmation, but who is G. Waters?

AK

That’s fair enough, so even the fact that we are informed that Ron and Hermione are at 12 Grimmauld Place for a significant length of time in the summer, the fact that they are prefects and spend time together away from Harry, is irrelevant due to the “off the stage� problem.

So, if you’re going to dismiss all the R/Hr “placement together� that is off the stage, I will dismiss all H/Hr “placement together�, even if it is on the stage. (Which, by the way, there is obviously a lot more of H/Hr placement together that we actually “see� because it is Harry’s P.O.V, after all)

So you're going to dismiss what is written for what is not written in order to support your theory :??:

It could be said that there can’t possibly be significant interaction during their placement together because conclusions can be drawn from what Harry does see. But conclusions can be drawn other ways –i.e. the supposed “over-reaction� during the PKA. Here’s one such example.

So Ron's possiviness/jealousy is clearly established and then the rest of the connections are to take place off stage?? Why establish Ron's part to have the rest take place off stage? If Ron's part wasn't established on stage then one could have a much more valid arguement. But your romance is played half on stage and half off. So by your own theory we should dismiss Ron's actions on stage and where does that leave us?

How will JKR put H/Hr together as boyfriend/girlfriend and write it so that it doesn't detract too much from the main story?

Why would it take away from the main story? Why do you think that H/Hr will detract from the Main Story as you call it? Short of you thinking that this will have to cut out Ron somehow.

And how do we know what the main story is? I think it's about Harry's quest to find a family against the background of war.

1) The Books began with Harry losing his family
2) Harry's deepest desire was a family
3) Harry lost Sirius, his godfather
4) The stories end and begin with Harry going to Privet drive. Where he has a house but not a home. Where he has blood relations but not a family.

Now why do you think that it will take away from the main story?

Cheers!

[evaluna]

Hawk, G. Waters is Galadriel Waters and he and Astre Mithrandir wrote the "Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter (Analysis of Books 1-4)"
BTW great posts all!

[Turambar]

Cheers Hawk, nice to see you back but you went AWOL without permission, so penalties will have to be enforced. No VMs, shaken or stirred, for a week.;)
Harry and Hermione spend a lot of time together as it is, they are the male and female lead characters, they are best friends, there is a regular pattern of them having adventures on their own, they are both essential to the series.
Putting them together would be relatively straightforward since they both have key parts to play in the fight against Voldemort and the Mudblood theme is a major theme of the series.

[haycheng]

Hi, AK
I do not know how the book is going to turn out. however, if JKR desires, she can define work romance into main plot. She can also remove Harry from everyone and kill him at the end.(To me, it is a possible ending, die in the confrontation with the dark lord and the dark lord realize his mistake. Starwars/Never ending Story II, anyone?) Then he can meet his family in heaven or hell. The true is we do not know how the story is heading. All we know is Harry Potter is a series about a famous boy who try to grow up(while being hunted and foreshadowed to destory the most evil wizard of all time).

The "off-stage" idea is unsound. Yes, we are only granted with Harry's point of View. However, it does not mean author will do any plot advancement without hinting the reader. There are many way an aurthor can hint something happen in off-stage. The interact of Ron and Hermione has little to no change in book 5, there is not indication of any off-stage develop. How can you convict us that there is important develop between them "off stage"? Unlike Ron's growing up, there is simply no evident to support it. everyone can agree that Ron has made great improvement in OFTP, because it is showed. We also know ginny is good with curse because the twice. If JKR bothers to tell us ginny is good with curse, whould she so forgetful that she do not hint H/R?

Placement theory:
Author is the controler of the story. Thing does not just happen as in real life. Every moment is carefully planned. We can agree it is just a single incident if it is only happen couple of time. However, the frequency of the H/Hr moment is very high. It does not neccessary equal to romantic. However, we can not deny that this shows their bond beyond any bond in the series. We do not know what this bond will lead to. However, many writers try to foreshadow a romantic relationship by showing a strong bond between two unrelated character. Therefore, such evident canincrease the change of romantic relationship.

love is definely a major theme in the books. Is romantic love one of them? I do not know. Will romantic detach from the series, if JKR desire to write it, I do not think so.

thank you for your welcome, Hawk

[lleyki]

:clappy: :clappy: :clappy: That's for all H/Hr shippers. You guys are certainly holding down the fort. Hell I didn't think I could be completely awed by a post (after being here since the very FIRST love thread:) ) but I was wrong. Mad Eye Mike, simply outstanding and Earendil I meant to post this a long time ago, but your post on the H/G ship was absolutely beautiful. Wish I could actually add something worthwhile right now but it was carnival week in my island and I'm a wee bit hungover.:D Anyway, just wanted to say great jobs, guys.

[Hawk 92]

Cheers Hawk, nice to see you back but you went AWOL without permission, so penalties will have to be enforced. No VMs, shaken or stirred, for a week.

To be honest I was trapped behind the lines. And thanks to a certain bean counters *coughmadeyemikecough* latest budget cuts I was unable to arrange for helicopter pickup. Apparently there is something in the budget about needing to rescue at least 2 00 agents to justify a chopper. Oh well. And I didn't even get frequent flyer miles this time.

You think that a certain bean counter *coughmadeyemikecough* would have been a little more helpful. Espically since I kept his secret about being voted the number one BACKSTREET BOY Fan and that I never posted his autographed picture of him and Nick Carter.

Such is the life of a 00 agent.

00evaluna

Would you believe that I have never read that book. Its true.

Cheers!

[evaluna]

Hawk, re: G. Waters, some stuff is now outdated, but much of it it may still potentially be worthwhile -- I'll have to review again between our more pressing 00 missions...Particularly they made a breakthough with the interruption theory but obviously others have reached a similar conclusion on their own.


Also, can others help me compile a list of H/Hr acknowledged "Big Hints"? From anywhere across the septology to date? I'm thinking we have quite a few now and I don't want to lose track of any for future review and analysis. I'll start something and if everyone else could *please* help, that would be lovely! These are intended to be literary devices and symbols taken from the context, not complete contextual scenarios or interpretations. I feel sure I’m already forgetting some…


H/HR Consensus "Big Hints" for Ship in Septology to Date: [DRAFT]





1. Chess Piece Assignment in PS/SS: The idea is that two complementary pieces, the rook and the bishop, find a complementary unity (yin/yang) in one, the queen, that later defeats Ron (Ref MEM’s essay for detail). Also, see #7 pertaining to OoP.

2. Hippogriff (and Ride of Same) in PoA (and mystical beast recurs in all books since): Revolves aroung Hippogriff as archetypal symbol of love between two people and its presence in Harry/Hermione scenes of critical textual substance (Ref Sirius’s essays in prior thread).

3. Harry's List of Girls He Names "Pretty" (for exclusion purposes, point being that Ginny and Luna are not mentioned, whilst [i]excepting Hermione, the others on the list find no substantive role in Harry’ life): Compiled in GoF from Harry’s POV with no known changes or additions to said list in OoP: Hermione, Cho, Parvati, Fleur, Madame Rosmerta (Ref my earlier posts on prior thread).

4. Perception of Harry and Hermione as a Couple/Involved by the Following: McGonagall [since CoS, + implies Dumbledore], Mrs. Weasley, Krum, Cho, Colin/Rita Skeeter [+implies the Daily Prophet/Witch Weekly readership in the Wizarding world], Ron [? If so, then since at least GoF or OoP], Dumbledore [on his own, at least since OoP] -- and, per boggart theory, also Professor Lupin – and last but not least, Draco [at least he perceives Hr -->H, +implies Lucius and potentially Draco’s cronies and their parents – a.k.a., DeathEaters, +implies Voldy]. (Ref mine, Sone's, and many others essays in prior thread).

5. Harry's Relationship with Halloween and Major Personal Occurrences on Said Date: Conception, death of parents, meeting Hermione in PS/SS. The idea here is that meeting Hermione is the first step in Harry's completing of the circle of his life [re: deepest desire/Mirror of Erised], here regaining the love and potentially the family he lost, hence it's fitting they meet on Halloween. Which means after all, hallowed eve, and which has existed as a fall festival of spiritual transformation for millenia & whose roots are not attached to any particular religion. (Ref FP’s recent essay. Really good catch, FP).

6. Hermione: Omnipresent re: Harry’s POV: By OoP, Harry even hears Hermione in his head, as well as dwelling on her in thought and form throughout OoP; occurs since CoS, where Harry is under the influence of her guidance or thoughts of her, even when she is not physically present (Ref our thousand or more [well, nearly!] essays in both threads). Also, per FP, EricaM et al, Hermione is symbolically omipresent because her loyalty has never faltered, not once. That is, Hermione has always been there for Harry.

7. In OoP, Yin/Yang of Harry/Hermione (or, the Tao of H/Hr): Harry leans on Hermione as source of emotional security: She is his conscience and insight when his own fail him; Hermione leans on Harry for physical security: he is her protection, her strength in the face of her fears when her own fails her (both physically and also metaphorically as she trusts in his ability to teach her DADA) (Ref our many essays, +prior thread).

8. DoM “Inner Sanctum� Holy of Holies in OoP. – this is a speculative “Big Hint� (we don’t exactly know but suspect that it has something to do with love and its redemptive, healing power – the power to transform, to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat – and further we suspect that one must be transformed from within by true love in order to experience the Inner Sanctum). (Ditto sources above).

8.a. Can include alternate dreamscape interpretation of the Door that Could not Be Opened : The idea here is that it cannot be opened by one who has not fully given and received love from another, i.e., has not yet loved on all levels, has not yet met their soulmate, the one who completes them. Love for Sirius, his godfather, the argument goes, was in itself not yet enough to enter the Inner Sanctum (Ref Turambar et al’s posts from prior thread). May require both halves of couple to enter.

9. Ron's 6th Step in OoP, Ch, 17: The idea here is that Ron's faltering and falling on the 6th step en route to Hermion's dorm, landing at Harry's feet after falling, is potentially indicative of Ron losing Hermione, and losing her to Harry at that, in the 6th book during 6th year. (Ref my earlier posts this thread, supplemented by several others). It may be that Ron also loses something else to Harry, and some have suggested it may be his life [Earendil? I need to check ref, sorry].


Alright, then. What did I miss? Comments welcome. I’ll edit the list as we go.

--If someone can sum up the H/Hr pairing for overcoming the “big stuff� in each book into a nice clue, I’ll add that as well but didn’t want to muck it up. ;)

--Also I know there are interruptions but couldn't compile a mental list of those critical to the ship offhand, aside from of course the post-kiss interruptions or abrupt scene endings for H/C [leading to PKA and beginning of downplay of Cho] and Hr/R in OoP [where implication is that H was also plausibly kissed, and either way the "..and you, Harry" implies this scene is not exclusively Hr/R and thus is a wash for either ship].
Cheers!