CoSForums Archive - Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

lleyki

July 27th, 2003, 4:24 am

Thank you for responding but again I'm not trying to be difficult here but WHERE does any incident here of Hermione's blushing show romantic feelings for Ron? Hermione blushes only when Ron asks about Krum but unless I'm mistaken, Ron is the ONLY one who asks about Krum. Couldn't her blushing be attributed to the fact that she KNOWS Ron does not like Krum and his asking is motivated by jealousy? There is also the matter of the discussion being an uncomfortable one for her. It is one thing to discuss others love lives and quite another when you're the point of focus. The fact is blushing is NOT something that is relegated to romance. People blush when they're nervous, uncomfortable, embarrassed, etc. In relation to Hermione there was her blushing after she found out Ron was made Prefect instead of Harry. Some R/Hr shippers actually believe it was because she liked him but I saw that scene WAY differently. Plain and simple Hermione blushed because she had embarrassed herself. She wrongly assumed Harry was Prefect, then compounded the embarrassment by actually asking Harry if he was sure when he said it was Ron's badge(naturally causing Ron to be defensive). That was blushing out of pure embarrassment but of course some saw romance here. Therefore my initial point is again that there was NO positive way to tell that Hermoine was blushing because she liked Ron or simply that she was uncomfortable discussing the topic. The issue of the articles about herself and Harry being a couple; it should be noted that we NEVER see Hermione being asked about what's going on between herself and Harry.EVER. We knew persons were making fun of her being referred to as pretty but that was it and while she didn't blush neither did much to dispel that fact did they. Not until she was getting verbally attacked because of the second article anyway. Besides there is NOTHING going on between Harry and Hermione and Harry knows it as well as Ron, so why would this cause her to blush? However something WAS going on between herself and Krum, something that Ron was forcing her to discuss with his questions and not making easy with his obvious contempt for Krum. The two are separate.

Okay Gilyann I responded once before on your opinion of this fight. I simply DO NOT see your view on this AT ALL and I don't know that I ever will. The fact is Hermione didn't jump up defending Ron completely immune to Harry. Hermione was sympathetic and understanding enough to Harry to anticipate his needing to escape the school, so she brought him breakfast and suggested a walk. She immediately believes him that he didn't put his name in the Goblet. Hermione WAS NOT the to bring Ron up. Her immediate thoughts were about who would put Harry's name and why and basically HARRY'S problems. He was the one who brought up Ron and we see her very hesitant in approaching the subject. Eventually she explains to him why Ron is behaving the way he is. Again healing comes through understanding and Harry sadly had NO clue why Ron was behaving the way he did. The fact is before anything else the three kids are ALL friends. A fact Harry remembered when he chose to not take sides in Ron and Hermione's fight and one Hermione remembered in her behaviour towards them both in GOF. I don't see WHERE Hermione felt more compassion for Ron or was more understanding of his feelings. The fact is Ron's feelings were painfully obvious to ANYONE who wasn't Harry. Secondly, read carefully Hermione's explaining Ron's feelings to Harry. She immediately tells him that she KNOWS that he neither likes or wants all the attention he gets. In other words she is making it clear that none of it is his fault but simply this is why Ron is acting the way he is. Of course Hermione was acting like a friend here to Harry as she was trying to get her TWO best friends to mend their fight. This was not about some romance and again maybe it's because I would have done the same in her place but the only thing I ever saw Hermione doing in that situation was trying desperatly to get her best friends talking again. That's it.

I don't know what you are referring to about the Occulumency visions. All I remember is that Hermione knew Harry hadn't stopped having visions in his dreams because Ron told her he was talking in his sleep. What that simply showed me was that she suspected he wasn't telling the truth about the visions stopping, simply because he didn't want to the class anymore especially from Snape and that out of concern for him she was discussing it with Ron who then told her that he was speaking in his sleep. Period. All I see from this is Hermione obvious concern for Harry and that her point of discussion with Ron here was of course; Harry.

Hermione showed MORE warmth for Ron after his bad practice? All Hermione did was feel sorry for Ron because he had a bad practice, like she felt desperately sorry for Harry when he couldn't go to Hogsmeade or when he was sad about leaving Hogwarts at the end of POA. Again that was simple sympathy for her friend. Btw, lovely reaction Ron had towards for all that 'warmth' you seemed to think she showed him. He literally bit the girl's head off. If one does not see nothing else but simple sympathy here by Hermione for Ron let's look at the rest of the scene. Hermione immediately asks Harry after Ron leaves how bad Ron was. When Harry tries to lie she gives him a look so disbelieving that he had to admit Ron was bad. Now the fact is that a girl who had romantic feelings for this boy and was SO much more concerned about his feelings; would look a little affected by his feeling insulted and look slightly broken up about his outburst. Hermione's reaction was simply to confirm from Harry that Ron was indeed bad. Now one can compare that to Hermione immediately realizing amid all the excitement of Harry getting off; his clutching his scar.(yes she was next to him but so was Ron and he didn't notice). There's also her making the potion for his hand and speaking of the trial her reaction to his getting off. The girl was literally shaking. The worse was over, he got off and she was so emotional she was shaking. Those are the reactions Hermione has towards Harry. Definite signs of love; maybe or maybe not but again I still can't see WHERE she shows so much more compassion and warmth for Ron than Harry and the evidence given seems flaky at best. There are WAY more incidents from the first book to the fifth where I can show Hermione's obvious more concern, compassion and warmth for Harry but maybe tomorrow because I'm tired now. The fact is what I saw here were a few moments of Hermione's friendship with Ron which again I NEVER said wasn't there. What I DIDN'T see was Hermione's obvious feelings for Ron over Harry.

Fair enough Gilyann. Maybe Hermione shouldn't have kissed Ron knowing he had feelings for her but I don't believe it was done to encourage him or done in any manipulative sort of way. Yes Ron, liking Hermione, naturally had an intense reaction but it should be noted that NOTHING changed in their friendship after that. We DO NOT see Ron admitting to ANY feelings for Hermione so it is safe to say she DIDN'T give him any false ideas here. I am however mature enough to accept certain things and again I admit that maybe she should not have kissed him but that said; it certainly worked didn't it. Btw, if Hermione was really trying to encourage Ron she would have kissed him before the last game where without Harry and the twins they were really in a bad shape.

I NEVER, NEVER said Hermione was not bossy or tried to make her an angel. NEVER. I have ALWAYS maintained that all these kids have faults and that's what makes them believable. My feeling however is simply that there were times that Hermione WAS NOT speaking to Ron when he was rude to her. Simple. I have never made Hermione out to be an angel. One of my points against R/Hr is that from the way she talks to him sometimes it's obvious that she does not respect him as much as she does Harry and respect is important in my view for a relationship, no matter how young they are. That said, while I concede Hermione's has faults, I simply feel that MANY of the characterisations made about the character is unfair.

I completely disagree with your last paragraph. Gilyann it seems you only look at love on a romantic level and while this is what we are discussing here it has somehow led you to have a very COLD view of Harry and Hermione's relationship. You don't think that Harry and Hermione will fall IN love with one another and that's fine but the belief that they are nice business partners is very contrary to canon evidence. Hermione and Harry are BEST FRIENDS, just like he and Ron and Hermione and Ron. Harry loves Hermione and vice-versa. They respect, admire, appreciate and understand each other. Theyhave fights once in awhile like all friends and spouses too. However there is NEVER malice or meaness between them and they solve their problems on their own. To treat Harry and Hermione's friendship like some cold, detached business arrangement is not only harsh it is simply unfounded in cannon and as to OOTP showing how unsuitable they are, I don't agree but that is to be expected since we ship completely different ships. That said as much as I like H/Hr I saw JK's toying with almost all ships but of course I don't expect everyone will see that. I am not being rude here or sarcastic but simply that in truth I saw little textual evidence for your views and more personal opinion, which is fine but as is I don't agree with most of it.

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 5:40 am

Some thoughts on Hermione/Krum and Harry/Cho.

The author writes a scenario where one person (Viktor) becomes jealous of another person (Harry) over another person (Hermione) in one book (GOF).
She then writes a scenario where one person (Cho) becomes jealous of another person (Hermione) over another person (Harry) in the next book (OOTP).
This raises the questions of why JKR chose to mirror the two sequences and why Ron does not figure in them.
These are structural devices to the basic plot: so why entangle Hermione so deeply in Harry's relationship with Cho over several scenes in two books. What exactly was the point of having Viktor declare to Hermione how much she meant to him, then showing her gushing over Harry and then showing Viktor glowering with suspicion and jealousy over Harry?
In GOF Krum becomes suspicious of Hermione's relationship with Harry because she talks about him a lot and off her own bat - she says at one point that Krum has not asked about Harry himself.
So why did JKR decide to a) raise the jealousy issue, b) make Harry compare himself to Krum, and c) why make Harry the subject of Krum's jealousy?

With Cho, she knows Harry is interested in her since he asked her to the Yule Ball in GOF and he asks her out in OOTP.
Cho has obviously seen that Harry, Ron and Hermione are friends, she knows they are in the same year, same house. She saw them together at the Quidditch World Cup, for instance. But she knows Harry asked herself to the ball and went with someone other than Hermione. Hermione went with Krum and was Krum's 'hostage' in the lake task.
So why if she knows Harry is interested in her, and knows that the trio are friends does she suddenly jump to conclusions about Harry and Hermione's relationship? Wouldn't the natural assumption be that Hermione, if she's interested in any of her friends, would be interested in Ron who doesn't have a girlfriend?

But Cho reacts in an irritated way to Hermione's suggestion that the DA members vote on a leader. As soon as Harry mentions Hermione's name on their date, Cho is sharply suspicious, insecure and tries, as Hermione says later, to probe Harry's feelings by trying to make him jealous.
The way Cho reacted so quickly suggests IMO that she had previously been wondering about Harry and Hermione's relationship.
But why does JKR create this scenario at all, why is it necessary? Why emphasise Cho's jealousy with the subsequent scene of her getting upset over her sneak jinx. Why add Cho to the list of people who are suspicious of the H/Hr relationship. And why keep Ron's involvement to the very one-sided role of suspicion and jealousy of Harry and Krum over Hermione? Viktor, Cho and Ron are all in the same position: outsiders looking in on the H/Hr relationship.
Viktor and Cho both get upset over communication: Viktor over Hermione babbling about Harry because it reveals her interest in him and Cho about the fact that Harry feels able to talk about something personal to Hermione but not to her.

In the HP series JKR is starting to a) mirror current (OOTP) events with previous events, b) recall previous events and c) use current events to throw light on previous scenes.
With a) and b) for instance, the fact that Hermione in OOTP is faced with thinking about disliking someone (Umbridge) so much she wants her dead, mirrors Harry's earlier situation with Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in POA.
In GOF Hermione teaches Harry the summoning spell and other useful spells for the first and third tasks. In OOTP the roles are reversed and Harry teaches Hermione. In the DA classes they practice, among other things, the stunning spell which comes in handy and the DOM.
Another obvious mirror is Sirius as a dog chasing the train compared to the famous train scene with Ginny in PS.
Harry also thinks about spells and their past connotations such as in the exam when he recalls the troll incident from PS.

On c) in GOF Harry compares himself to Viktor in the scene where Krum confronts him. Harry is "struck anew by how tall Krum was" and he "couldn't quite believe he was having this conversation with Viktor Krum, the famous international Quidditch player. It was as though the 18-year-old Krum thought he, Harry, was an equal - a real rival -". Krum praises Harry who grins "suddenly feeling much taller himself."

The influence of this scene comes through in OOTP.
For Harry: a) Right from the start a strong theme is Harry being more aware of his own power and what he is capable of; b) Hermione tells him that Viktor told her that Harry knew how to do things he didn't; and c) Krum's age and the fact that he's an international Quidditch player are the reasons he gives Ron for Hermione's interest in Viktor.
For Hermione: a) Just as Harry measured himself against Krum so Hermione in OOTP is forced because of Harry's interest in her to measure herself against Cho; b) Harry is forced by Cho to measure Cho against Hermione; and c) Hermione uses her letter writing to Krum in the post-kiss scene as a shield to prevent her feelings over the Cho kiss becoming too obvious and to keep Ron's interest in her at bay.

So JKR continues to weave in the parallels: Krum is the shadow Harry and Cho the measuring stick for Hermione in OOTP as they were in GOF, where scenes like the Lake task showed that Hermione was more important to Harry than Cho. These parallels tell the READER about Harry and Hermione's feelings, likes, dislikes, what they need, their relationship, even if the CHARACTER isn't aware of what they mean. For instance Harry finds having a common interest in Quidditch with Cho doesn't ultimately help him connect with her or make her suitable for him while Hermione and famous Quidditch player Krum manage to forge a friendship despite the fact that Hermione isn't that fussed about Quidditch (except when Harry is playing). As Sone has posted before, Hermione may be insecure about not being Harry's (Cho, sporty) type.

There's other scenes in OOTP that shed a bit of light on events in GOF between Krum, Hermione and Harry.

"Harry saw,with an ominous feeling,that her face was suddenly alight with the kind of fervour that SPEW usually inspired in her. "It's about preparing ourselves, like Harry said in Umbridge's first lesson, for what's waiting for us out there."

Harry gets the 'ominous' feeling because he associates the inspired passion she's feeling with SPEW, the first 'cause' to inspire her that he doesn't get excited by.
But she is talking about her vision of Harry teaching them and incorporates Harry's idea in Umbridge's class into her vision.

Then consider this: Hermione's reaction when sees the response to Harry's interview in the Quibbler (again her idea, involving Harry).

"Here's another one you've convinced," said Hermione excitedly."
"Everytime Hermione caught sight of one of these signs, she beamed with pleasure."
"Then they spotted me, and obviously they know I know you, so they bombarded me with questions," Hermione told Harry, her eyes shining, "and Harry, I think they believe you, I really do, I think you've finally got them convinced!"

Remember, these were HER ideas. And both of these ideas made Harry happy. And Hermione got enjoyment out of making Harry happy.
This is exactly like the scene in GOF where Hermione meets Dobby, runs up six floors, grabs Harry and takes him to see the elf as excited as though she'd suddenly discovered that Santa is for real and all her Christmases had come at once.
These scenes give the reader some idea of how it must have felt for Viktor hearing Hermione talking about all the things Harry had done, looking at the "alight" face and the "shining" eyes. But unlike Harry, he knew what it meant.

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 7:29 am

Great post good job lleyki and Turambar :tu: :)

Now I did cover slightly the jealousy issue. By the way I never mean to say that I don't like Ron or his failure but I just don't see him jumping over this issuse in case of Hermione and (very important) Don't think that Hermione would take this by a boyfriend. She just don't seems to me like such a girl who take it that her boyfriend jumps on her just for a letter. To that comes with such behaviour, smile, you don't win a girls heart not in that way.

Love is about to take a person exactly how he is. That says you don't want to change his or her behaviour or character. This is another issuse in R/Hr. They do bicker. Yeah, but what about? About character, about which failures they see at each other. Sorry but thats again not love, its again How create I a better Hermione or How I create a better Ron. Love is acceptance but this is what R/Hr don't do not in a romantical way. Yeah they do accept each other in a friendly way but not in romantical way. They are good friends but a good couple? No, they have two very powerful issuse, wait three if I count respect, which say to me very loud that this won't or better should not happen.

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 8:05 am

Thanks FP. I've been to Koln, even climbed that humungusly tall/long cathedral tower you've got there. It just about killed me.

EricaM

July 27th, 2003, 9:03 am

GillyAnn:

In medieval times there was an expression, "To mate griffins with horses," which meant about the same as the modern expression, "When pigs fly." The hippogriff was therefore a symbol of impossibility and love.
So another interpretation to the hipograff flying thing could be a message of the impossibility and incongruity of love between H/Hr.

Actually, that expression predates Medieval times, the Roman poet Vergil (Born 70 BC) used it indicate impossible things

"...soon shall we see mate Gryphons with mares, and in the coming age shy deer and hounds together come to drink..."

Gryphons and horses had a huge animosity between them, and so the Hippogryph symbolizes an impossible thing - Vergil was discussing love in the above quote.

Whereas it's true that the term hippogryph was used in Medieval times to indicated impossiblities akin to the expression 'when pigs fly'. It is also true that in Verse/Stories written during the same Medieval times, hippogryphs became the mounts of Knights and Wizards (heroic figures?) and where used symbolically to represent love.

Davydee:

OotP Ch 4 “ Number Twelve Grimmauld Place"

Hermione had thrown herself on to him (Harry) in a hug that nearly knocked him flat, while Ron's tiny owl, Pigwidgeon, zoomed excitedly round and round their heads.

Of course, we've touched on this before, mostly in jest; Harry and Hermione - when pigs fly.

We know that JK often delves into fan sites and we can only speculate as to whether this is a sop to the When pigs fly idea, or whether it is something JK wanted to portray anyway. Whatever her intentions, notice how in terms of symbolism, the very same signals are being sent to the reader as the hippogriff analysis above. Harry and Hermione in close physical contact with Pig flying above their heads. Was Pig introduced in GoF, and thus named, specifically to have this very purpose later on, here in OotP? Who knows?

It's interesting to note that Pigwidgeon isn't the only 'Flying Pig' in OotP. When Harry and company first arrive at Hogwarts they fly past the Entrance Gates that are topped with Winged Boars (Flying Pigs?) and when the Weasley twins unleash their 'Artificial Fire Extravaganza' one of their fireworks explodes into Flying Pink (winged?) Pigs.

So perhaps JKR *is* trying to say something ;)

I also wanted to comment on the new developement in OotP where Harry starts to hear Hermione's voice in his head. I was reading a forum, possibly on FA, where an R/Hr shipper attributed this to Hermione representing a Mothering Figure to Harry, and thus, he hears her voice in her head much as a child would hear the voice of their mother when they are considering a course of action (what should I do).

Although it's a definite possibility, voices inside someones head is not limited to a mother (or parent) figure and has more to do with how much stock, how impressed/strongly affected one is by that person (owner of the voice). It can also be associated with love ...

From the movie 'Two Weeks Notice' (Romantic Comedy)

"...mainly because this person, despite being unusually stubborn and unwilling to compromise and a very poor dresser… she's rather like the building she loves so much, a little rough around the edges but when you look closely, absolutely beautiful, and the only one of her kind. And even though I said cruel things and driven her away, she's become the voice in my head and I can't seem to drown her out and I don't want to drown her out." (George Wade [Hugh Grant] talking about Lucy Kelson [Sandra Bullock])

Erica

sone

July 27th, 2003, 9:30 am

The "mothering" figure argument never works because Harry has never looked at Hermione as his mother or a representative of one. Only Mrs. Weasley has ever given him that impression.

Also Turambar, great post. IMO, it may be that Cho notices Hermione likes Harry. Maybe Hermione's love for Harry is all over her and Cho has noticed Hermione just as much as Hermione has noticed Cho.

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 9:49 am

Now I do think about it. Its interest that indeed pigs do fly. I mean look at it we do say to something its nearly impossible in a sacastic way:" Yeah and when pigs fly?!" Now in canon they do fly. That say even you say H/Hr is impossible like flying pigs well in canon the pigs do fly and if they fly that say H/Hr is very much possible. I wondering if JKR do read R/Hr pages and bring such things in her book just for fun.

Did I mention I love english humor? No, I do love it.

PS: Yeah the cathedral towers are very high about 156meters I did it by myself. All the pain in the legs is this sight worth.

sone

July 27th, 2003, 9:53 am

evaluna

July 27th, 2003, 11:03 am

Absolutely brilliant posts. Thank you Ilyeki for so thoroughly analysing Hermione's POV and surrounding context -- as well as your focused rebuttals to shore up the resistance! And Turambar, for expounding on the use of parallelism and other structural devices over the last 2 books, linking Harry and Hermione through their respective crushes/relationships. And Ecthelion, FP, sone, HayCheng and Hawk [I see our 00 team continues to be well represented!], great posts and clarifications on a number of points! I have nothing to add right now except :tu: :tu: :tu: all round!
Cheers!

Ecthelion

July 27th, 2003, 11:21 am

I think Perdita brought this up, but just imagine the symbolism of Hermione throwing herself on to Harry in that huge hug while "Pig" is flying zooming over their heads excitedly. Quite a lovely vision.

You know, this makes me think of something. I seriously don't think that we (the readers) or even the h/hr'ers fully grasp just how much Hermione cares about Harry. We know its a lot, but the scope of it is almost too big to comprehend. And this hug scene is no different.

"He caught a brief glimpse of a gloomy high-ceiling, twin-bedded room, then there was a lout twittereing noise, followed by an even louder shriek, and his vision was completely obscured by a large quantity of very bushy hair--Hermione had thrown herself onto him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat, while Ron's tiny owl, Pgwidgweon, zoomed excitedly round and round their heads.

"HARRY! Ron, he's here, Harry's here! We didn't hear you arrive? Oh, how are you? Are you all right? Have you been furious with us? I bet you have, I know our letters were useless--but we couldn't tell you anything. Dumbledore made us swear we wouldn't, oh, we've got so much to tell you, and you've got to tell us--the dementorsW! When we heard--and that Ministry hearing--it's just outrageous, I"ve looked it all up, they can't expel you, they just can't there's provision in the Decree for the Restriction of Underage Sorcery for the use of magic in life-threating situations--"

"Let him breath, Hermione," said Ron, grinning, closing the door behind Harry. He seemed to have grown several more inches during their month apart, making him taller and more ganly looking than ever, though the long nose, birhgt red hair, and freckles were the same.

Hermione, still beaming, let go of Harry, but before she could say....

All right, that whole bolded part was the time Hermione was hugging Harry. Wow. The part where she spoke alone is like thirty-five to fourty-five seconds (tried it myself :) ) And plus the other part....I don't know about you but that is an exceptionally long hug. And as we all know, hugs convey certain meanings such as love and compassion. This one is no different. And surely with a minute long hug, it might have gotton awkward? Well, it didn't, to neither of them, though it quite possibly did to Ron. What I am trying to say, is that this shows so much concern and compassion for Harry it is overwhelming. Picture yourself as a 15 year old. Then picture yourself hugging or being hugged by another 15 year old of the opposite sex, for a minute. I highly doubt anybody can do it with the same fluency and normality that we see Harry and Hermione do so.

Also, I am not saying that because of this, they are going to get together, it just another reason why they should. :)

EDIT: Turumbar, nice post up there :tu:

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 11:54 am

You right I did get it as I heard this from the audio-cd at amazon. The speaker need nearly 2 minutes to read all this stuff and still Ron do shut the door and only after that she let go of Harry. Thats indeed a very very long hug. I mean as friend you stood by this sight do watch this scene and has probably through the whole weeks they were there hear how worry Hermione is and now this hug? Well, if my friend dos this with 15 I swear I did think there is more as just something going on. Just imagine this. Normally a boy at this age, just remember how Hermione hugged Ron in POA, would pat uncomfortable her head and hope this hug is fast to end. But here what do we see no uncomfortable Harry. Thats one of the reason why I commet this as a typical Boyfriend/girlfriend scene. They act just like that even Hermione so called mothering is much more concern which is alike of a girlfriend but that just me.

sone

July 27th, 2003, 12:09 pm

Yes, it is interesting the whole time Hermione is speaking, she never lets go of Harry. Only until Ron says "let him breathe" does she and she is still beaming at him and was going to say something else until Hedwig came around. Harry does not seem to mind this at all. Ron even goes on to state how worried Hermione was about Harry being alone without any news at all.

MoF

July 27th, 2003, 12:11 pm

Wow!. I don't think I've ever seen so many brilliant posts on one page!
Especially to Ilyeki and Turambar, have some of these...
:tu: :tu: :tu: I'm gonna drown you with them :tu: :tu: :tu:

too_wicked

July 27th, 2003, 1:43 pm

This may be off-topic but have you seen the Newsweek article about the PoA movie in Mugglenet? You've got to check that out. The pictures say A LOT in regards to H/H.

Cheers.

~oSiRiS~

July 27th, 2003, 2:03 pm

This may be off-topic but have you seen the Newsweek article about the PoA movie in Mugglenet? You've got to check that out. The pictures say A LOT in regards to H/H.

Cheers.

dont like the costume design there....
too muggleish for me....

I feel the same way about that long hug...
I have never given or recieved a hug that long by someone who was just a friend with out death being a factor... so i believe there is more to it...

anyhooo... great posts everyone..... keep it up...
:tu: :tu:

Earendil

July 27th, 2003, 2:10 pm

Regarding Hermione caring more for Ron than Harry:
I see that my shipmates have covered this thoroughly, but I also wanted to reiterate the fact that Hermione treats Ron with a certain condescending disrespect that she rarely shows Harry. I'm currently working on an analysis of Ron and Hermione's "fights" throughout the entire series, and the contrast of Hermione's behavior towards the two boys is quite startling. It seems that Hermione feels that she can dominate Ron in their arguments; she frequently responds "coldly" or "sharply" to his heated statements, or she even tells him to shut up without hearing him out. On the other hand, Hermione seems to take a slightly more submissive stance when she argues with Harry. I say "slightly" because I truly believe that Harry and Hermione view each other as equals, and that neither would dominate the other in a relationship. However, I see something astonishing happening to Hermione when she is faced with an angry Harry: the bossiest and most domineering girl at Hogwarts suddenly seems willing to step down and compromise with someone--which is something that she doesn't do with anyone else. She actually seems to admire and revere Harry, and it becomes even more evident when they argue. She doesn't belittle him or call him stupid or tell him that he has the emotional range of a teaspoon: she listens and becomes upset when he disagrees with her. Yet she continues to stand up for herself and make her point heard.

Hermione cares for both her friends, as lleyki pointed out. The three of them are first and foremost best friends, and it's easy to lose sight of that in all the shipping debates. However, I fail to see how it is possible that Hermione--whom canon clearly tells us has more respect for Harry--would care more for Ron and show more compassion to him. She cares about him, certainly, but every action of Hermione's towards Harry illustrates the difference of opinion she has for the two boys.

Awesome posts, everyone--Turambar, lleyki, FP, EricaM, sone, Ecthelion--take a few WOW smileys. :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: Your insight impresses me beyond words.

To further reinforce the point of this romantic imagery that we all love, there's a set pic from PoA (http://www.msnbc.com/news/943721.asp?0dm=s11Ak) that too_wicked has already mentioned, which clearly shows how powerful the image of H/Hr will be when played out visually. I'm extremely apprehensive about the PoA movie, but I can't say that I'm not looking forward to seeing how compelling the image of these two together will be.

EDIT: On this long hug in OotP, all I can say is that not many people are comfortable with being held in such a rib-crushing embrace for about two minutes straight. I didn't even realize the hug lasted so long until I looked back and found that she didn't let go of him until after she finished blathering away for half a page. This may not even have anything to do with shipping per se, but I think that it shows only too clearly how comfortable and close Harry and Hermione are. Harry didn't even show signs of being bothered by it, or even embarassed--the way Ron was when Hermione broke down on him in PoA. Granted, they were thirteen back then, but those of us in the throes of the teenage years will know that the awkwardness between boys and girls is not necessarily better at age fifteen. Yet Harry and Hermione are comfortable enough to show physical affection at this point, while Ron and Hermione have not shown anything near that degree of closeness.

Sarmi

July 27th, 2003, 2:29 pm

Hey guys!

I just want to say that y'all have put out some GREAT posts!!! I plan to post something later tonight, hopefully, I've got house-guests. And since there are no more clappies, then I guess I'll have to use this. :tu:

Again, great work guys!

Sarmi

EDIT - And can someone give me a clue as to why it won't load my pic, I done the VBcode correctly, at least I hope.

2nd EDIT - Nevermind! I got it working! Well, as you can see.

sone

July 27th, 2003, 2:52 pm

too_wicked, I just saw that article. That is picture is definitely a keeper. I see you got it working Sarmi. :)

Daveydee

July 27th, 2003, 2:56 pm

Yes, H/Hr'ers. I wouldn't get overly excited over the new PoA set photo if I were you. It's quite obvious what the scene is.

Hermione, clearly extremely distressed at the sight of her future true love being dragged into the Whomping Willow. The picture on her face speaks a thousand words.

EDIT: Note how Harry appears rather more concerned at the lashing branches of the tree, whereas Hermione's gaze is firmly fixed on the sight of the disappearing Ron.

Nice interpretation there, Sen. Cuaron.

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 3:03 pm

For me looks it more as if the whomping willow is gonna to hit one of them and thats the scene. I mean they can't show how this tree this two hit really badly so its why that scene is slightly different and that says a little bit like the forrest scene in OotP as the giant was going to grap after Hermione.
EDIT: He is looking high in the sky and I doubt Ron is that flying around or he sitting in the tree, who knows.

cheers.

~oSiRiS~

July 27th, 2003, 3:11 pm

HRmm i am not sure...
it looks like they are in the forest...

also.... if you look closely Emma's eyes are looking up and to the right... Dans up and to the left...
all the action should be talking place on the ground...

though this also may not be a scene in the movie, but a photoshoot for a teaser poster...ect...

Buckbeak

July 27th, 2003, 3:24 pm

Hermione, clearly extremely distressed at the sight of her future true love being dragged into the Whomping Willow. The picture on her face speaks a thousand words.

Future true love?

:no:

Hawk 92

July 27th, 2003, 3:24 pm

Just to add my 2 cents about the picture. There seems to be some sort of river or some kind of body of water behind them. Now I didn't see water near the Whomping Willow in CoS. In fact the Whomping Willow was quite land locked.

As for her staring up at Ron being dragged into the Willow. I didn't know that Sirus could fly as snuffles.

I think that picture is during the Dementor attack.

Cheers!

sone

July 27th, 2003, 3:26 pm

I almost forgot to say this. All this deep discussion, all these great posts and it turns out the simplest things are staring me right in the face. In short, Hermione and Harry's first "loves" are jealous of Hermione and Harry. The guy in Hermione's life is jealous of Harry. Despite the fact that he is older, very athletic, intelligent, a world famous Quidditch player, and a excellent wizard. He is even quite articulate. The girl in Harry's life is jealous of Hermione. Despite the fact that she is pretty, popular, a great athlete herself, a excellent Quidditch player and is also very bright. All these great qualities and both of them feel they just simply fall short of Harry and Hermione. Even more interesting, the problem itself is based on communication. They cannot talk to them the way Harry and Hermione can to each other. I think what Ron doesn't realize (or what he does not realize until later in OOTP) is that he is jealous of the wrong guy. He shouldn't be asking what does Hermione see in Viktor, he should be asking what does Hermione see in Harry. That's it. Communication. Harry and Hermione have it. Viktor, Cho, Ron and even Ginny wished they had it.

AvadaKedavra

July 27th, 2003, 3:27 pm

I seriously think that a single picture will not tell us much. It's best to see the context of the picture-i.e. where the picture takes place (even though we know a rough whereabouts of the picture), we should still wait until we see how the director has portrayed the rest of the scene and also the whole film in fact. :D

The hug? Well, there's no dispute that Hermione cares about Harry, and a lot at that too. However, Harry's been through a lot (yet again), and is pretty much bewildered. Hermione is eager to give him comfort and "make up" for her failings- i.e. her failing to correspond to Harry properly. And, of course, this proves H/Hr. Not.

Ron is certainly MORE respectful and caring towards Hermione, and vice versa during Ootp. No one can dispute that, and I strongly disagree those who say it's because of Harry telling them to put a cork in it. The level of caring has improved considerably, and there are more "warm" moments in the book, than books 1-4.

Ron and Hermione bicker, but it gets less vicious. They start to care more, and those two fields start to merge. In Six, I expect their relationship to become less split, and more steady- to provide a more secure platform for revealing of their feelings.

Signing out,

Avada

Mad Eye Mike

July 27th, 2003, 3:34 pm

Very nice sone. :tu:

My opinion on the pic is that it's either the Whomping Wilow scene or the Dementor attack.

Hawk, I don't think that's water behind them, I think it's mist or fog.

Hawk 92

July 27th, 2003, 3:41 pm

Ron is certainly MORE respectful and caring towards Hermione, and vice versa during Ootp. No one can dispute that, and I strongly disagree those who say it's because of Harry telling them to put a cork in it. The level of caring has improved considerably, and there are more "warm" moments in the book, than books 1-4.

AK

I can and I have disputed that. And I've used the text to dispute that. Maybe no one can dispute but there are plenty of some ones that have and have done so quite nicely.

So some :tu: :wow: :tu: :wow:
to the HMS Harmony shippers for the last couple of pages.

But I'll agree with AK on one thing. Hermione and Ron continue to fight even after Harry tells them to stick a cork in it. So even Harry telling them to knock it off doesn't stop the fighting between these 2.

Cheers!

sone

July 27th, 2003, 3:42 pm

Actually AK, the picture is almost exactly how I viewed H/Hr in Book Five when Grawp came around admist all those centaurs. That is why it is a keeper for me.

Sirius83

July 27th, 2003, 3:42 pm

My opinion on the pic - it's a Dementor attack. The forest was quite near the lake as the flow of things in POA suggest. They get cornered near the lake, but also near the trees. I'm guessing they're facing the lake, that's why we don't see it. But they're looking different directions and seem cornered...i'd say its a Dementor attack.

Buckbeak

July 27th, 2003, 3:43 pm

Harry will not die. there, subject closed.

~oSiRiS~

July 27th, 2003, 3:47 pm

I believe that pic is a rehersal.
One they dont have their wands.....
two.... they had time to get the invisibility cloak before they went outside.( it should be lying in the middle of the field) so they probably would of changed into better clothes....
three Hermoine should have the time turner...

i believe its a mist behind them as well....

I agree with sone about the thing they are missing is communication.

lastly, as much as i would like to see Harry and Hermoine get together at the end. It seems too fairytaleish to me, The hero gets the girl...ect.
I just dont see JKR going that route.

Daveydee

July 27th, 2003, 3:47 pm

But I'll agree with AK on one thing. Hermione and Ron continue to fight even after Harry tells them to stick a cork in it. So even Harry telling them to knock it off doesn't stop the fighting between these 2.

Well, precisely. It is indeed significant that the improving relationship between Ron and Hermione comes from the heart, and not as a result of pressure from others.

sone

July 27th, 2003, 3:57 pm

Not to me osiris because basically we have been looking at it incorrectly from the beginning. I do not think of their relationship as fairy taleish or easy. Harry and Hermione while they discover they have many things in common initially started off by being opposities. One of the first things I noticed about Hermione is that she has a certain regard for rules. Harry as I first noticed has a certain disregard for rules. But as the books go on, you see that their opposites start attracting. They even start taking on some of the other's character aspects. Ron and Hermione are polar opposities. However, they do not attract, they repel. Hermione does not like flying nor Quidditch. Harry loves flying and loves Quidditch. But Hermione loves seeing Harry play Quidditch and loves seeing him fly. It is not one of those relationships where they just fall into each other and live happily ever after. It develops slowly but surely, twist of fate here, twist of fate there and if you look already, not too many people are overjoyed at their relationship (and they're not going out yet).

evaluna

July 27th, 2003, 4:00 pm

Original post by DaveyDee
Well, precisely. It is indeed significant that the improving relationship between Ron and Hermione comes from the heart, and not as a result of pressure from others.

DD: :no: Actually IMO it was quite clear that there was a marked notchdown in verbal hostilities after Harry got frustrated at the two of them. It wasn't total and complete, of course, but marked. This can therefore reasonably be attributed to their respective attempts to honour Harry's request. Harry did [does] have rather a lot going on, and he is arguably both Hermione's best friend and Ron's best friend [although certainly Ron and Hermione are friends, as well], so it appears they were each trying to be supportive of him on this. So we may just have to agree to disagree here, but that's fine.

Also: my husband came by as I linked to the article ref'd above, and whilst I thought the pic was either the Willow or the Dementors scene, his first comment was that it must have been shot whilst fighting the Dementors. If we differ, he's usually right over me on these intuitive things [yes I'll admit], so I'll go with the Dementors.

Sone, well-stated! Harry and Hermione are fated to run into nothing but opposition from a good many people, at the least, and it's already long since started. The course of true love never did run smooth, did it? And I think that's exactly the point.

humayun

July 27th, 2003, 4:43 pm

the six of them :neville, luna, harry , ginny, ron , hermione i think each of em will be in relationship.

neville with luna
harry with ginny
ron with hermione

big_cho_fan

July 27th, 2003, 4:50 pm

That's assuming none of them will die

Hawk 92

July 27th, 2003, 4:54 pm

Well, precisely. It is indeed significant that the improving relationship between Ron and Hermione comes from the heart, and not as a result of pressure from others.

Fascinating! I type continue to fight and you translated it as improving relationship.

And we have yet to see in the text where this improving relationship is coming from the heart as you say. Because every Hr/R moment that is pointed to has an outside force involved. Harry's telling them to stop fighting, Percy's letter, etc.

So where is this coming from the heart thing at?

Cheers!

AvadaKedavra

July 27th, 2003, 4:55 pm

Pigwidgeon

July 27th, 2003, 4:56 pm

Shouldn't this be in the "who's going to fall in love" thread??

Buckbeak

July 27th, 2003, 5:02 pm

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 5:03 pm

Why does she argue back?

Simply because she think Ron is wrong. Hermione dos even by Snape argue back if she think he is wrong look at POA.

Well, I did it now I come into hell.

Sarmi

July 27th, 2003, 5:06 pm

Hawk
The fact that they continue arguing was included in my pro R/Hr argument a week or two ago. I'm going to repeat it, albeit in a brief form. They continue arguing because they seek each other's attention, and whilst the arguing provides negative attention, it is neverthless undivided attention that they are giving each other.

Just one question.....How can this be consider good for a relationship? Why would anyone consider negative attention good?

When Hermione mentioned Krum, Ron jumped up on it. However, Hermione immediately got bored, she didn't respond like she did in GoF. So, what does that say about the R/Hr relationship? Is she getting bored arguing with Ron?

Sarmi

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 5:12 pm

I rather think they bicker all the time because they both to stubborn to see where the other one comes from. Just like this nice two biggest ship in fanon. And are this ships in love? Nope, not that I know.

AvadaKedavra

July 27th, 2003, 5:25 pm

Buckbeak

You probably didn't read my post ages ago- and I don't blame you for saying what I said doesn't make sense. I will try to explain- Hermione is insecure about her feelings.

She knows some of Ron's feelings, but is too afraid to reach out to him, for fear of rejection. She is frustrated at Ron's lack of action regarding his potential feelings, and part of her arguing is a release of frustration at him for his non-confirmation of his feelings for her, prolonging her tenure of insecurity.

She doesn't want to be 95%. She wants to be 100%.

As I pointed out a few posts ago, the situation between Hermione and Ron- (arguing) seems to be improving, (not hugely) but quite a little bit. I re-iterate, that this is not necessarily because of Harry's outburst, but possibly because of their "mutually unspoken agreement" (this is the best way I can put it) that arguing constantly will make it even more difficult for a secure platform to be established, from which they can reveal their feelings.

For example, continuous arguing confuses Ron- he doesn't understand Hermione and doesn't confirm his feelings because he is also frightened of a rejection/Yule Brawl 2. Also part of him is temporarily satsified by the subsitute electricity.

Hermione gets more frustrated at the non-confirmation and needs more subsitution. Therefore more arguing.

Do you see? A vicious/negative circle of emotion. It will need an external circumstance to break it- i.e. a near death experience would do rather nicely.

They sometimes do not speak to each other, but in Ootp, this happens to Harry too sometimes. Also, Hermione and Ron have become so used to this vicious circle that they know it's just their usual arguing. REAL EMOTIONAL and ANGRY arguing will result in a Yule Brawl 2.

Flying Phoenix

If she thinks Ron is wrong, and she knows too, why doesn't she just give up and leave the stupid bugger to enjoy his own delusion? She seems SO determined to assert herself/ her status at Ron.

Also, there is usually no RIGHT and WRONG. Hermione still argues anyhow. There are plenty of examples of this, I'd be more than happy to do some digging, but I think it will go wasted anyhow.

Ho-Ho (:p)

Avada

EDIT

Hermione was bored because the "Krum" thing was criminally over-used, funnily enough. However, in other arguments, the drivers seem to be focused, not bored. As I said, I can find plenty of examples to reflect every perspective that I have covered.

FlyingPhoenix

July 27th, 2003, 5:34 pm

I think you do know that I disagree with you here AK

She knows some of Ron's feelings, but is too afraid to reach out to him, for fear of rejection. She is frustrated at Ron's lack of action regarding his potential feelings, and part of her arguing is a release of frustration at him for his non-confirmation of his feelings for her, prolonging her tenure of insecurity.

If this is realy the case you implied that at the very moment as Hermione saw Ron she did know he likes her. They do since the first book bicker with each other to a time where they weren't even friends

If she thinks Ron is wrong, and she knows too, why doesn't she just give up and leave the stupid bugger to enjoy his own delusion? She seems SO determined to assert herself/ her status at Ron.

They don't just argue about topics which Ron see wrong, they argue about Harry where again Hermione think Ron is wrong. She do argue because she know it better and Hermione is someone who hold very high her hand if she know the correct answer. Its the same with argueing with Ron if she know she is right she say it and don't stop. She do it with Harry in OotP. She do it with Percy in GoF, she do it with Snape and she do it with Ron all the time because so sad it sound Ron is alomst always wrong or see it not in the logical way.

haycheng

July 27th, 2003, 5:35 pm

I will only forcus on 100% part. Is making Ron's jealous the way to get answer out of him? You make make it sound like Hermione is palying with ron. If she wants answer, all she has to do is given Ron a clear answer about Krum, and give him more respect. Is that really that hard to know Ron's feeling without telling hers(assuming she indeed like Ron)?

Hawk 92

July 27th, 2003, 5:38 pm

Hawk

Thanks for agreeing. :D

The fact that they continue arguing was included in my pro R/Hr argument a week or two ago. I'm going to repeat it, albeit in a brief form. They continue arguing because they seek each other's attention, and whilst the arguing provides negative attention, it is neverthless undivided attention that they are giving each other.

This creates electricity between them and this is a temporary subsitute for both. Hermione, who knows some of Ron's feelings and wants him to confirm them, needs that attention. Ron, who is starting to realise his feelings but doesn't know what to do about them, needs that attention.

Hermione is a very clever girl, and she knows that she doesn't need to assert her mental superiority over Ron. Ron has even admitted this. So the question is- Why does she argue back?.

Ho-Ho.

Signing out,

Avada

AK

So which is it? Is their relationship improving or is it staying the same? At one point you say that they are fighting less and then they are fighting the same amount?

And from what do you draw the conclusion that they need this temporary electricity. As you labored to point out Ron's feelings are quite clear and if Hermione returns these feelings then why the need for the cheap substitute? And where do you draw the conclusion that Hermione likes a fighting realtionship? We do have an example with Hermione and Viktor. They do not seem to have been the combative type of couple to me. And if Ron's feelings are so well established as you claim then why does she need to fight with Ron to get his attention?

And if Hermione has these feelings towards Ron then what is holding her back? According to what you have typed Hermione is unsure of her feelings. So what is making her unsure? Her feelings for Viktor or perhaps Harry?

And we might point out that the Ron and Hermione arguements often end with Hermione and/or Ron storming off or getting mad or ignoring each other. So how is this undivided attention? Not to mention that there fighting has been the norm (along with Ron being rude) and not the exception since book 1.

But thank you AK for establishing that Hermione has feelings for another guy. Now all we have to do is wait and see if its Harry or Krum.

Cheers!

Buckbeak

July 27th, 2003, 6:14 pm

QUOTE=AvadaKedavra

You probably didn't read my post ages ago- and I don't blame you for saying what I said doesn't make sense. I will try to explain- Hermione is insecure about her feelings.

No im sorry i probably didn't read your post, cause it was probably very long, and although i try to read them i usually miss the longer ones, which i know is a mistake cause thery're the best, its just theres so many and im not very fast at reading so...well anyway i know what your trying to say about Ron and Hermione arguing because their insecure about their feeling for each other. but the kind of arguements they have is usually picking up the worst things about eachother, which even for a young realtionship is not a good thing.
i will try and argue against Ron and Hermione for as long as i have to. Personally i expect JK will put them together, but i will hate it if she does.

Hawk 92

July 27th, 2003, 6:20 pm

OK lets examine this post,

She knows some of Ron's feelings, but is too afraid to reach out to him, for fear of rejection. She is frustrated at Ron's lack of action regarding his potential feelings, and part of her arguing is a release of frustration at him for his non-confirmation of his feelings for her, prolonging her tenure of insecurity.

I'm not sure where you got this. Has Hermione been feeling this since book 1 then? They have been fighting since book 1 this way.

As I pointed out a few posts ago, the situation between Hermione and Ron- (arguing) seems to be improving, (not hugely) but quite a little bit. I re-iterate, that this is not necessarily because of Harry's outburst, but possibly because of their "mutually unspoken agreement" (this is the best way I can put it) that arguing constantly will make it even more difficult for a secure platform to be established, from which they can reveal their feelings.

And as was pointed out their mutal understanding didn't last long because they are still fighting. And where is it unspoken? Ron states in the text that it is a spoken agreement between them to not fight so much around Harry. Kindly show me the text that supports this unspoken agreement.

Do you see? A vicious/negative circle of emotion. It will need an external circumstance to break it- i.e. a near death experience would do rather nicely.

And this is a good thing? Lets see we've had Hermione getting attacked by the snake in Cos, Ron getting drug off in PoA, Hermione getting hit with that spell in OotP and Ron nearly getting strangled by that brain in OotP and still no changes in their realtionship. How many near death events does it take?

If she thinks Ron is wrong, and she knows too, why doesn't she just give up and leave the stupid bugger to enjoy his own delusion? She seems SO determined to assert herself/ her status at Ron.

Conflicting personalities as you just pointed out. Thank you.

Cheers!

MoF

July 27th, 2003, 6:21 pm

As AvadaKedavra said so beautifully, Hermione is insecure and wants to be 100% sure, not 95%. That's why she did the safe thing, and started by asking Harry to knit elf clothes with her. It was quite a big thing for her to ask Harry about that. She is not like the average girl, and less straightforward (unfortunately for Hermione, Harry is pretty ignorant regarding this, and only a very straightforward question would get to him).

AvadaKedavra

July 27th, 2003, 6:21 pm

Hawk

I have already covered this ground with you, but I will do again.
1.
They are fighting less- as I said so a few posts ago.

2.
Where is the evidence that Hermione and Viktor are romantic in Ootp- Hermione says he is her pen-pal, and she turned down his invitation- she didn't go to Bulgaria. Ron's feelings are clear to *us*, the over-analytical Harry Potter maniacs. But they may not be 100% clear to Hermione herself.

3.
Hermione knows of some, but she wants to be 100% sure of them, before she does something about thim. She is insecure- she fears REJECTION. She seeks utter confirmation from Ron himself- something like "I like you, do you want to go to the ball with me".

4. Perhaps you don't identify with Ron and Hermione, but I do. That's why I ship them. I'm not going to get too detailed here, but I've been through the exact same, it's like a mirror. You point out something- that they storm off etc.

Well, from experience, the electricity generated may be a subsitute, but sometimes during those arguments, you get a "flash" of the bigger picture. You actually despair at the situation- you're arguing with your beloved. You deep down don't want to. You feel split- part of you wants to continue this, getting the attention that you enjoy, but part of you realises its shallow, and realises that whilst it may be a subsitute, it's not THAT good. You start to take some of those comments thrown back to you at face value, because the "attention" stabiliser isn't working that well. It's then the arguments get personal and break off. But this happens sometimes, and not all the time.

EDIT: Hawk's latest post

I admit that from Books 1-4 or possibly 1-3, it was a case of dislike, or like you say conflicting personalities possibly. (*sound of thunderous celebration from the HMS Harmony) :p

But when their hormones started, so did something else- their feelings for each other. They use their bickering (already pre-set) as an outlet for what I have already explained earlier- the subsituting, and also as an excuse as not to face up to their feelings for each other. Hermione is insecure, Ron is terrified of a sequel to the Yule Brawl.

EDIT 2: New material.

JKR said that she got the name "Hermione" from Shakespeare's "The Winter's tale". I decided to do some research on this, seeing as JKR has parallels between her stories and famous mythology/ stories.

To cut a long story short, Hermione is with Leontes, whose best friend is Polinexes. Polinexes shows signs of being impressed by Hermione when she becomes nice to him, and Leontes becomes jealous and pushes Hermione away. Eventually, all is well, and Leontes remains with Hermione and is still best friend with Polinexes. Now, this is INTERESTING. The question is, who is Leontes. It could be Ron or Harry!

Hawk 92

July 27th, 2003, 6:45 pm

Hawk

I have already covered this ground with you, but I will do again.
1.
They are fighting less- as I said so a few posts ago.

And as I replied all due to outside sources. Percy's letter, Harry's getting mad at them, etc.

2.
Where is the evidence that Hermione and Viktor are romantic in Ootp- Hermione says he is her pen-pal, and she turned down his invitation- she didn't go to Bulgaria. Ron's feelings are clear to *us*, the over-analytical Harry Potter maniacs. But they may not be 100% clear to Hermione herself.

I was pointing to Hermione/Krum in Gof. But the first part could go for H/Hr as well. And the second if Ron is acting romantically jealous in Gof how much more confirmation does she need? Or is Ron not acting romantically jealous in Gof? And is Ron not romantically jealous of Krum in OotP? Which is it?

3.
Hermione knows of some, but she wants to be 100% sure of them, before she does something about thim. She is insecure- she fears REJECTION. She seeks utter confirmation from Ron himself- something like "I like you, do you want to go to the ball with me".

Ummm I disagree here but its speculation. So why the lack of encouragement to see if his feelings are 100%?

4. Perhaps you don't identify with Ron and Hermione, but I do. That's why I ship them. I'm not going to get too detailed here, but I've been through the exact same, it's like a mirror. You point out something- that they storm off etc.

I identify with them all too well. Sorry when the conflict comes from different personalitites I'm leary of these things. They are not disagreeing on intellectual things or on food or on movies or anything like that. They fundamentally disagree on everything. And this is not that case where opposites complement each other. This is a case where basic personalities do not get along.

Well, from experience, the electricity generated may be a subsitute, but sometimes during those arguments, you get a "flash" of the bigger picture. You actually despair at the situation- you're arguing with your beloved. You deep down don't want to. You feel split- part of you wants to continue this, getting the attention that you enjoy, but part of you realises its shallow, and realises that whilst it may be a subsitute, it's not THAT good. You start to take some of those comments thrown back to you at face value, because the "attention" stabiliser isn't working that well. It's then the arguments get personal and break off. But this happens sometimes, and not all the time.

This is how you view Hr/R and I've stated that I view it as personalities clashing. And has been this way since book 1. To be different is good but when it leads to conflict then it is better to remain friends.

Cheers!

Earendil

July 27th, 2003, 6:46 pm

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
If she thinks Ron is wrong, and she knows too, why doesn't she just give up and leave the stupid bugger to enjoy his own delusion? She seems SO determined to assert herself/ her status at Ron.

She seems SO determined to do this with everyone, not just Ron. Arguing is not a characteristic of Hermione's that is reserved to Ron--which is one of the many reasons why I disagree with the R/Hr ship using it to defend this couple. Hermione argues with everyone. The fact is that she argues with Ron in a certain way that exhibits the lack of mutual respect that would tarnish a more personal relationship between these two.

I have to say it: Awesome sigs, FP, Mike and Sarmi. :wow: On the PoA pic, I automatically assumed that it was the Dementor attack, because it appears to be completely dark rather than sunset. I was about to use it as my own sig, but Sarmi beat me to it. :p

sone

July 27th, 2003, 6:46 pm

Sone, well-stated! Harry and Hermione are fated to run into nothing but opposition from a good many people, at the least, and it's already long since started. The course of true love never did run smooth, did it? And I think that's exactly the point.

Never has Evaluna. In any case, there has been something developing between Harry and Hermione since SS (though I really think it started going in POA) and it has been growing every year and now when I really look at it from the outside in, what it has developed into has indeed become quite alarming. Hermione even tried making an advance on Harry though it was in a roundabout way. That actually took me completely off guard when I first read it. Hermione had unfortunately used the wrong bait. All Harry thought about was elf clothes, he had no idea what she was really asking was for him to spend time alone with her.

AvadaKedavra

July 27th, 2003, 6:57 pm

Lack of encouragement?

If Hermione knows *some of Ron's feelings, then why kiss Ron if she knows it will encourage him? In fact, it doesn't work. Well, perfume isn't exactly an "ask out" is it?

This also ties in with the legendary confusing quote- she is frustrated- he is not picking up on her subtle encouragement, or else doing something about his feelings.

Earendil

Remember they are not adults. They are hormonal teenagers, and they have an history of bickering. Neither wants to be the first one to "break" the routine, but as they both become maturer, this will change.

Lack of mutual respect?

As I have pointed out countless times- the R/Hr relationship is split into two sides, one is arguing and the other is the non arguing. We see, especially in Ootp, the non arguing side is more and more caring and respectful, which seems *impossible* seeing as half of the time is spent bickering. But it's not- seeing as they argue less, it's a kind of a merging.

What do you think of the following? I posted it earlier on in an EDIT, but seeing as people might miss it, I'm posting it again.

JKR said that she got the name "Hermione" from Shakespeare's "The Winter's tale". I decided to do some research on this, seeing as JKR has parallels between her stories and famous mythology/ stories.

To cut a long story short, Hermione is with Leontes, whose best friend is Polinexes. Polinexes and Hermione get on exceptionally well, and Leontes becomes jealous and pushes Hermione away. Eventually, all is well, and Leontes remains with Hermione and is still best friend with Polinexes. Now, this is INTERESTING. The question is, who is Leontes. :p

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 7:01 pm

Nice post Sone on H/Hr and Krum and Cho. And thanks to yourself, Evaluna, Ecthelion, MoF and Earendil earlier.
I also think that pic is of the dementor attack.

Sarmi

July 27th, 2003, 7:09 pm

Great posts guys!!!! :tu: :agree: :tu:

I have to say it: Awesome sigs, FP, Mike and Sarmi. :wow: On the PoA pic, I automatically assumed that it was the Dementor attack, because it appears to be completely dark rather than sunset. I was about to use it as my own sig, but Sarmi beat me to it. :p

Thanks Earendil. BTW, if you want to, I have no problems with you using that pic for your sig. The more of it the better, I just can't stop grinning from this picture.

Anyway, as I was saying earlier about my post. I have something to contribute to Hawk's Theory of Interruptions. As we all know, if JKR interrupts it, she must be hiding it. I found one that really ticked me off at JKR.

OotP (US Verison) Chapter 16, page 331
"Yes, Harry," said Hermione gently, "but all the same, there's no point pretending that you're not good at Defense Against the Dark Arts, because you are. You were the only person last year who could throw off the Imperius Curse completely, you can produce a Patronus, you can do all sorts of stuff that full-grown wizards can't, Viktor always said -"

Ron looked around at her so fast tha he appeared to crick his neck; rubbing it, he said, "Yeah? What did Vicky say?"

Okay, here we have Hermione gushing about Harry's abilities, pointing out things that he's done whereas she hasn't. That's saying a lot for Hermione to be doing this.

This is what made me a bit peeved at the interruption because it's pretty blatant that Ron interrupted at the mention of Krum, JKR wants us to focus on Ron's jealousy and not the fact that Hermione was gushing and praising Harry for his abilities.

When we see Harry & Cho together, Cho gushes and praises his bravery. Harry loves it, his heart swells with pride to put it bluntly.

However, in that scene above Hermione is praising Harry for things he's done and she hasn't. Harry should be reacting in some way, maybe he does, but JKR chose to have Ron cut in to keep us from thinking about it and focus on his jealousy.

See y'all!

sone

July 27th, 2003, 7:42 pm

Thanks Turambar.

Sarmi, you have brought up some interesting thoughts. Viktor "always" said that Harry can do stuff even he couldn't and he was in his last year at Durmstrang. I wonder exactly what did Harry do in front of Viktor that made him say that. Anybody following me here? :)

Anyway, it is clear to me that Harry and Hermione are seperating themselves from the rest of the school. Too brilliant, too powerful. It is like they're in two different worlds. There's the Hogwarts students, and then there's Harry and Hermione.

evaluna

July 27th, 2003, 7:54 pm

BTW Great posts fellow shippers and agents, all!

Originally Posted by AvadaKedavra
Reply to Hawk

Thanks for agreeing.

The fact that they continue arguing was included in my pro R/Hr argument a week or two ago. I'm going to repeat it, albeit in a brief form. They continue arguing because they seek each other's attention, and whilst the arguing provides negative attention, it is neverthless undivided attention that they are giving each other.

This creates electricity between them and this is a temporary subsitute for both. Hermione, who knows some of Ron's feelings and wants him to confirm them, needs that attention. Ron, who is starting to realise his feelings but doesn't know what to do about them, needs that attention.

Hermione is a very clever girl, and she knows that she doesn't need to assert her mental superiority over Ron. Ron has even admitted this. So the question is- Why does she argue back?.

Originally Posted by AvadaKedavra

You probably didn't read my post ages ago- and I don't blame you for saying what I said doesn't make sense. I will try to explain- Hermione is insecure about her feelings.

Avada, *sigh of mild exasperation* ;) I am so disappointed to see that you haven’t read my post, either apparently, nor Earendil’s prior reply [to you BTW], which I also ref’d on page 16 of this thread. Please re-read else I may be forced to repost from just 7 pages back, whereupon my shipmates would probably throw me overboard…Meantime, I’ll just quote a piece, yeah?

Original post by evaluna
Earendil (reply to AK)
"2) Emotional electricity. Ron and Hermione's fights are not emotional. They exchange insults for the sole purpose of one-upping each other; other than PoA, Hermione never is reduced to tears or intimidation, and Ron never does anything other than snap. When Ron shouts at her in the Yule Brawl, she responds by shouting right back. When Harry shouts at her in OotP, Hermione still holds her own defense, but has a visible emotional reaction. Between the two pairs, which one has more emotional electricity when they fight?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earendil: Agreed. Hermione and Ron bicker and often appear only to tolerate each other. Harry and Hermione seem to touch deep chords in each other, and Hermione in particular seems truly upset [tears up] when Harry's emotional wellbeing seems threatened, such as when he is upset or angry. I think HayCheng and FP have touched on this issue many times and have spoken well. The idea of a love relationship built on a lack of solid mutual respect or even just plain disrespect [and which at least previously also included constant low-level verbal hostilities] is anathema to me. I think this lack of mutual respect, even if somewhat improved over past history, is a poor example for any love relationship, and I think Harry agrees:
<snip>
[EDIT: the following refers to lack of signs of major overhaul of Ron’s character, as James had done]

No sign of Ron doing this [and only very small signs of any maturity period in OoP] & thus the whole crush thing, whilst true for Ron at the moment, is well overplayed IMO. Thus far there is not enough common ground in their personalities to really ever get along well. Remember James and Lily weren't even friends and thus the expectation of courtesy toward one another should be even higher for Hermione and Ron as existing friends. I think the whole UST argument for rudeness equating secretly to lust or even love is very lowbrow and I don't think that's JKR at all. I think picking on the girl or boy you like goes out in primary school, and even if Ron is a bit immature even he's not that far gone. He's a nice enough bloke, but he's just not the one for Hermione -- evidenced by her overall lack of response to Ron in any way beyond friendship-- particularly in OoP, and not a particularly deep friendship at that, especially vis-a-vis Harry and Hermione's relationship.

This reinforces the argument some have put forth that Hermione and Ron have a much smaller overlapping pool of respect for one another as individuals than they each do for Harry, and that he is for each the main friend. H and R do each respect some things about the other, but not enough to tip the balance in their overall views of and corresponding behaviour toward one another. This is especially obvious regarding Hermione, as she spends a majority of her spare non-study time with Harry in OoP. And even if Hermione were suddenly to fall for Ron, for which I absolutely see no evidence, IMO a love relationship without respect is doomed to failure, as the other stuff will get you only so far. Without a substantial overhaul of both characters [and who wants that?], I don't see how JKR can make this credible. I still see it as one-sided R--.>Hm, as so many of the crushes in this series have been, and I think even for Ron this must somehow pass if he is to ever find someone whom he can mutually respect and thus truly love.
<snip>.

BTW, Avada, you could have just asked Perdita for background on a Winter’s Tale, or me – it’s my favourite Shakespeare play and always has been ;) You sort of left out all the suffering on Hermione’s part, but aside from Hermione being long-suffering for love, there may not be such direct parallels regarding all the other characters. Perhaps Perdita or others will weigh in on this.
Cheers!

Earendil

July 27th, 2003, 8:07 pm

We all know that Ron and Hermione argue. It's one of the indisputable facts of life. Many view their arguing as a sign of hidden attraction, pent-up frustration, or this indefinable "chemistry" that I so often hear about. Before we all accept this as smoking-gun support for the R/Hr ship, it's important to look at the style of arguing, context and subject of the argument, and the resolution of the dispute. Any relationship cannot sustain itself on tension and debate alone; there must be significant evidence of mutual respect and consideration, even when a couple is disagreeing with each other. I believe that Ron and Hermione display neither respect nor consideration for the other when they are arguing, and this is one of the many reasons why this couple is incompatible in my perspective.

In this installment of my analysis, I'll briefly outline each argument (even the insignificant ones) from SS/PS and CoS. This does not include the various occasions in which either Ron or Hermione will insult the other with no rebuttal: I'm only referring to two-sided arguments here. (Otherwise, this would be around fifty-eight pages.) Each subsequent book will require its own installment, as the arguments become more intense and more illuminating.

Sorceror's Stone (Philosopher's Stone): "The Midnight Duel", pg 155-156 {US Edition}
It was Hermione Granger, wearing a pink bathrobe and a frown.
"You!" said Ron furiously. "Go back to bed!"
"I almost told your brother," Hermione snapped. "Percy--he's a prefect, he would put a stop to this."
Harry couldn't believe anyone could be so interfering.
<snip for Hermione hissing like an angry goose>
"Now what am I going to do?" she asked shrilly.
"That's your problem," said Ron. "We've got to go, we're going to be late."
They hadn't even reached the end of the corridor when Hermione caught up with them.
"I'm coming with you," she said.
"You are NOT."
"D'you think I'm going to stand here and wait for Filch to catch me? If he finds all three of us, I'll tell him the truth, that I was trying to stop you, and you can back me up."
"You've got some nerve--" said Ron loudly.

First, Ron tries to order her to go back to bed. Not a good thing. Then, instead of ignoring her, which is what Harry does, he answers back rudely and displays his utter lack of concern for her. Now, for Hermione--apart from following the other two and poking into their business, she even makes the statement that she's going to rat on them if they all get caught, and that the other two should support her. Not a good thing either. The worst thing of all is that this isn't even one of the more personal fights in the series between Ron and Hermione, so I'll leave it alone as much as I can. This is at best an example of Ron and Hermione's different personalities clashing, but the worst is yet to come.

SS/PS: "Halloween", pg. 171-172
"You're saying it wrong," Harry heard Hermione snap. "It's Win-gar-dium levi-o-sa, make the "gar" nice and long."
"You do it, then, if you're so clever," Ron snarled.
Hermione rolled up the sleeves of her gown, flicked her wand, and said, "Wingardium leviosa!"
The feather rose of the desk and hovered about four feet above their heads.
"Oh, well done!" cried Professor Flitwick, clapping. "Everyone see here, Miss Granger's done it!"
Ron was in a very bad mood by the end of class.
"It's no wonder no one can stand her," said Ron to Harry as they pushed their way through the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly."

Hermione belittles Ron's intelligence by telling him he's doing it wrong, and Ron belittles hers with the "...if you're so clever" remark. And when she shows him up, he's even more angry. This is where it all begins: I seriously do not think that Ron will be able to handle Hermione always one-upping him. Ron needs to excel; he needs to be with a girl who will not always be willing to make him look bad to enhance her own intelligence--which is what Hermione does. Even as of OotP, Ron is annoyed by the fact that Hermione constantly surpasses him intellectually. He can't keep up with her, and this BOTHERS him.

We also see one of the many occasions throughout the series in which Ron makes a snide remark about Hermione behind her back. What's interesting is that Hermione has said a few rather nasty things about Ron behind his back as well, though this only occurs around GoF and OotP (possibly because this is when we see more of Harry and Hermione alone). Trust is important in a relationship, no doubt, and I have a hard time picturing alot of trust springing up between two people who have been known to make a few disparaging remarks about the other, unbeknownst to them.
--------------------------------------------

Obviously, there aren't many full-blown arguments between Ron and Hermione in SS/PS. The trio are not as close, and are therefore not as comfortable with disagreeing with each other yet. However, it's clear from the beginning of the series that Hermione has no problem with snapping, snarling, or insulting Ron--and Ron is very obviously irritated and annoyed by her superior and uptight attitude. Now, what about Harry? He's obviously irritated by Hermione as well. The difference is that Harry deals with it by ignoring the offensive behavior rather than reacting to it, and generally not giving her as much cause to be annoying as Ron does. I daresay I'm not the only one who has noticed that we see alot less of Hermione snapping needlessly at Harry than at Ron. She shows more admiration for Harry's accomplishments and respect for Harry's abilities, and limits her irritable snapping and supercilious behavior to Ron.

Examples of Ron talking about Hermione behind her back
1. "Whatever house I'm in, I hope she's not in it..." (pg. 106}
2. "It's no wonder no one can stand her," said Ron to Harry as they pushed their way through the crowded corridor. "She's a nightmare, honestly." <snip> "She must've noticed she's got no friends."(pg. 172)

Let me make it very clear that I find this to be perfectly understandable at this point. The trio are not officially friends in the two examples above, and it's completely normal for Ron to be insulting her to Harry. However, it's interesting that we never see Harry reply or initiate any Hermione-bashing. This is for character reasons, obviously, but I'm not surprised that Rowling made the point of illustrating the contrast between Harry's and Ron's opinions of Hermione. Harry is indifferent, though he is aware of her annoying nature, and Ron is actively bothered by it. Harry chooses to ignore it, while Ron chooses to perpetuate it by retaliating. The interesting thing is, Harry and Hermione's friendship has developed so much that Harry now remarks openly when Hermione bothers him and is not reluctant to disagree or take notice of her flaws, while Ron and Hermione's friendship is almost exactly the same--but with more fighting.

Chamber of Secrets:"Gilderoy Lockhart", pg. 89
Hermione closed Voyages With Vampires and looked down at the top of Ron's head.
"Well, I don't know what you expected, Ron, but you--"
"Don't tell me I deserved it," Ron snapped.

This is one of the reasons why the assertion from the R/Hr ship that Hermione shows more concern for Ron than Harry simply baffles me. The part of the passage preceding the excerpt I posted shows that Ron is clearly humiliated, mortified, and absolutely horrified at the Howler--and all that Hermione can do is begin to tell him that he deserved it. Now where do we see Hermione expressing the same "I told you so" attitude towards Harry? Harry goofs and gets his comeuppance plenty of times, and Hermione never tells him he deserved it. Before an opposing shipper attempts to list an example of Hermione doing just that, let me just say that Ron does the exact same thing to Hermione in GoF when she gets the hate mail from the Daily Prophet readers. He even says, "I told her!" This is yet another instance of Ron and Hermione caring mostly about one-upping each other rather than disputing and disagreeing constructively.

Also, this is one of the less funny moments of tension between Ron and Hermione. Alot of shippers claim that their arguments or disputes are interesting, witty, and amusing--well, this is a little more serious. Ron is upset, and he snaps at her when she tries to tell him that he deserved it. Not much sparkage here.

CoS: "The Writing on the Wall", pg. 148
"Hermione, let me read your composition," said Ron desperately, checking his watch.
"No, I won't," said Hermione, suddenly severe. "You've had ten whole days to finish it--"
"I only need another two inches, come on--"
The bell rang. Ron and Hermione led the way to History of Magic, bickering.

So, here we have Ron trying to use Hermione as a human cheat sheet, for about the eightieth time. Hermione made it clear from the moment the trio started being friends in SS that she wouldn't let them copy her homework. That's not unreasonable; why can't Ron respect that? Why don't we see Harry constantly trying to mooch of Hermione's work? Ron knows that she won't let him copy, yet he asks her if he can--and then they persist in arguing the point, even though both of them know that the other will not yield. If Ron respected Hermione's aversion to copying--or if Hermione was willing to compromise and help a friend in need--it would show that the two of them have respect for each other's opinions and needs. Instead, they continue to bicker pointlessly.

CoS: "The Rogue Bludger", pg. 163
"I don't believe it," he said as the three of them examined the signature on the note. "He didn't even look at the book we wanted."
"That's because he's a brainless git," said Ron. "But who cares, we've got what we needed--"
"He's NOT a brainless git," said Hermione shrilly as they half ran toward the library.
"Just because he said you were the best student in the year--"

Ron insults Lockhart, even though he knows that Hermione in all her foolish fancy is going to rise to the bait and defend him. And she does--shrilly, no less. It seems that Ron enjoys belittling Hermione's status as a school-obsessed brainiac. (NOTE: This is not Ron-bashing.) We see it in SS, when he snaps at her to show him how to do the flying charm "if you're so clever", we see it when he sneers at her being flattered at being called the best student of the year, we see it when he teases her about her boggart being a piece of homework that only got nine out of ten in PoA--it's good-natured and not intended to be hurtful, certainly. But why does he constantly need to draw attention to the fact that Hermione is obsessed with her schoolwork? I think he's so threatened by this that he can't help but belittle it, even in jest. He rarely shows admiration for her efforts; he chooses to tease her about it instead. This ties in with my belief that if Ron and Hermione do end up together, it will seriously bother him that Hermione is so much more academically adept than he is. Hermione will never be able to revere and admire Ron the way that she does with Harry because of her magical talent, and this is a weak point in the R/Hr ship, like it or not.

-------------------------------------
Obviously, Ron and Hermione's arguments in the first two books are limited to superficially harmless sparring, illustrating at the very worst the manner in which their personalities clash and at the very best their ability to put such arguments behind them. Unfortunately, this isn't much of a strong point either. Rather than compromise or apologize, the arguments are cut off or merely forgotten, allowing negative thoughts and feelings of temporary animosity linger unaddressed. These arguments are more expository than plot-related, to develop the combative relationship that Ron and Hermione have as of OotP. It does more than that: it shows how incompatible their personalities are. I believe that Harry and Hermione are two sides of the same coin, while Ron and Hermione are as different as nickels and pennies. Their differences clash rather than complement each other, and this is evident in these expository disputes. We have yet to see the serious blowouts, as of PoA and GoF, but the fundamental pattern is the same: useless sparring over stupid little things, insulting, attempting to one-up the other, pointless snapping, and rarely any conclusive resolution. My question is: is this a good sign for a loving and stable romantic relationship?

Ecthelion

July 27th, 2003, 8:28 pm

First of all, Earendil, nice posts (as well as Sone, Evaluna, Mof, and the rest!), they're excellent :tu: I'd comment on them more but I'm at relatives so...

And my two cents on the pic is the dementor attack for the reasons turumbar, hawk, and others have pointed out. Though I have to admit, even though I think they were on a weekend when they went out there, the clothes are way to "muggleish" if you ask me. Oh well.

Got to go!

~oSiRiS~

July 27th, 2003, 8:48 pm

Great post....
I cant wait to read more.
you get some...http://www.intercot.com/boards/graemlins/clappy.gif http://www.intercot.com/boards/graemlins/clappy.gif http://www.intercot.com/boards/graemlins/clappy.gif

on a side note of the muggle clothes... since when did harry not wear Big D's "handme down" stuff????

sone

July 27th, 2003, 9:02 pm

Very good post Earendil.

Actually I love the clothes they are wearing. At least they got some taste. Not just those robes all the time. Anyway Sarmi, I also cannot stop grinning at that picture of Harry and Hermione. The picture also reminds me of when Grawp first tried to grab Hermione. Harry seized her and pulled her behind a tree with Hermione shaking and wimpering as she is embracing Harry. If Cho or Ron saw that, they would be furious. I noticed that they did not bother to mention that rather interesting scene to Ron.

~oSiRiS~

July 27th, 2003, 9:13 pm

Anyway Sarmi, I also cannot stop grinning at that picture of Harry and Hermione.

I can not stop laughing either.
mainly due to the fact I keep imagining Harry to start rapping like Run-DMC. Its the jacket... all he needs is some puma's

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 9:18 pm

Great effort Earendil
Agree Sone. I want to see that film now.
It's interesting that they chose that particular pic and the article focuses on Dan and Emma and the issue of hormones. Personally I think the movie-makers are very aware of the benefits of having male and female leads with plenty of chemistry. They'll be hoping like mad the books go H/Hr.

evaluna

July 27th, 2003, 9:30 pm

Original post by Earendil

Even as of OotP, Ron is annoyed by the fact that Hermione constantly surpasses him intellectually. He can't keep up with her, and this BOTHERS him.

Earendil: Hear, hear!!! Brilliant post. I go now to savour the re-read. :)

Along those lines, just compare the above in OoP with Harry’s “surge of pride in Hermione’s jinxing abilities” [when caught holding DA mtgs, and no countercurse yet found for Hermione’s sneak jinx], his pride in Hermione’s Protean coin charm to summon the DA, and his comment to Cho that Hermione’s jinx was “brilliant”. Harry is proud of Hermione’s abilities, and he’s proud of her. Not threatened, not insecure. Harry has more than enough power and drive of his own; however, his character stands apart from this. Even from the start, as Earendil makes clear above, and even as first years before Harry had really come into his wizarding skills, Harry was not threatened by Hermione. Even from PS/SS, Harry comments that it’s good Hermione remembered critical info from Herbology at a life-or-death junction. Later, before facing Quirrel, Harry once again compliments her that she’s better than he, in the sense that she is more knowledgeable. Plus, there's no disputing that from Harry’s POV throughout the series, we have the mental comments that Hermione is the best in nearly every class in nearly every year. There is, BTW, no negative commentary attached to that from Harry's POV. That is, Harry notices her skills and he admires her for it, while in no way ever thinking, voicing, or behaving to indicate that he is threatened by her skills or jealous of her.
Cheers!

Hermione

July 27th, 2003, 9:32 pm

This should be in the Who's Going to Fall in Love with Who thread. I'm with Cho Fan, that's assuming that everyone lives.

Sarmi

July 27th, 2003, 9:42 pm

Again, great posts guys!!! :tu: :agree: :tu:

Agree Sone. I want to see that film now.
It's interesting that they chose that particular pic and the article focuses on Dan and Emma and the issue of hormones. Personally I think the movie-makers are very aware of the benefits of having male and female leads with plenty of chemistry. They'll be hoping like mad the books go H/Hr.

Me too. I want to see PoA right now.

I don't think the movie makers are going to be hoping like mad that the books turn out H/Hr if they are going to be focusing on H/Hr relationship in the movies. JKR let's Kloves know if he's going in the wrong direction. If the movies are emphasizing H/Hr, then it must be what JKR wants otherwise she would tell Kloves not to emphasize it so much.

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 9:57 pm

DumbledoreTheWise

July 27th, 2003, 10:15 pm

What cracks me up is that while everyone goes bananas over this picture that is clearly Harry and Hermione at the end of the book fighting off dementors or dealing with the Buckbeak thing, the actors themselves---yes Emma Watson, Rupert Grint, AND Dan Radclidffe---the people who talk to JKR a whole lot more often then we do and have a pretty good idea of what their characters are like to boot........ALL, that's right, all 3, beleive in R/Hr. Not to mention screen writer Steve Kloves, the director of the films Chris Columbus, and our very favorite JK Rowling. that's all the evidence I need. I trust that more than I trust 13 year old fans saying "well, in this scene, they argue, but not as much as Ron and Hermione, so he must love her," or "if Ron had said that Harry wouldn't have listened!" or "they are just perfect for each other because.......um...they just are. they are good friends and there isn't time in the series for Harry to fall for any one else."

Harry and Hermione are platonic friends. This is obviously not so wth R/Hr. Hermione is Harry's first real female influence. Petunia never gave him that. He needs Hermione as a mother figure, a friend from the other side of the spectrum with a different perspective. He doesn't like her in that way that you all wish he did. Simply because in many other stories that involve two boys and one girl the hero, or central character, usually gets the girl, doesn't mean this story is the same. it's the same as saying that just because the hero's best friend dies in most stories, Ron will die in this story. What makes you think that JKR is adherring to what usually happens in a picturesque story?

If I were a betting person, I would put fifty bucks on Ron and Hermione, and Harry being okay with it. Though he will probably get lonely and start hanging out with Ginny! The love of his life!!!!! oooooooooh can't wait! then Hermione and Harry would both be married into the Weasley Family, one big family! Okay now I'm getting all fairy tale like................

R/Hr
H/G
^
The truth..........it's absolutely beautiful...... except to H/Hr fans.

sone

July 27th, 2003, 10:34 pm

H/G could also be a problem because IMO there wasn't much there between Dan and the girl playing Ginny.

Turambar, there isn't much there in the books either.

Sarmi

July 27th, 2003, 10:54 pm

Well I hope so Sarmi but I think the H/Hr-ness of COS the movie was a mix of deliberately written and directed scenes and actor chemistry. There were also some moments where Emma and Rupert were directed to interact together but they didn't come off as strongly because the chemistry between them isn't as strong.

What I mean is that if the books don't go H/Hr, the D/E chemistry could be a problem for the movies. If the books go R/Hr they may need to recast and get a pair with stronger chemistry. H/G could also be a problem because IMO there wasn't much there between Dan and the girl playing Ginny.

Oh, I understand. Dan & Emma have a great chemistry. But the fact that JKR said that Kloves is a shrewd guesser, and Kloves does try to stay true to the books. But what keeps getting me is that JKR let's him know when he's going down the wrong path.

There were plenty of tender moments between Harry & Hermione in CoS Movie, they didn't need to be there if the pairing were to end up R/Hr. There's not enough time in a movie to set up red-herrings and such. You've got to stick to what only deals with the main plot.

I guess it's because I grew up in the theater/show business that I know how much time they have to work with and what they can and can't work with. :shrug:

If I were a betting person, I would put fifty bucks on Ron and Hermione, and Harry being okay with it.

First off, just for your information and advice. Please keep the snarkiness down, we really don't want this thread shut down.

Secondly, Harry would not be okay with it. OotP clearly indicated it, Harry was very upset that Ron & Hermione were having the time of their lives while he was at Privett Drive. He even vented his frustration at him when he got to Grimmauld Place.

He needs Hermione as a mother figure, a friend from the other side of the spectrum with a different perspective.

Yet Harry does not view Hermione as a mother figure. Yes, I agree that Harry needs a mother figure, that's what Mrs. Weasley is for.

He doesn't like her in that way that you all wish he did. Simply because in many other stories that involve two boys and one girl the hero, or central character, usually gets the girl, doesn't mean this story is the same. it's the same as saying that just because the hero's best friend dies in most stories, Ron will die in this story. What makes you think that JKR is adherring to what usually happens in a picturesque story?

I agree that JKR likes to twist things up, but she also doesn't do the obvious. It's obvious that Ron likes Hermione, but does Hermione like Ron? That's what is up for debate. As for Harry liking Hermione, there are indications that he subconsciously does.

OotP presented us with clearer indications to Hermione's feelings, but not entirely clear. JKR implores the use of "interruptions" when dealing with Harry thinking about Hermione or his feelings for her.

Before we keep going in circles, please read what has already been said in this thread. Thanks!

Sarmi

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 10:54 pm

Sone, I just meant if JKR goes that route.

Sirius83

July 27th, 2003, 11:02 pm

What you fail to address though, DumbledoreTheWise, is that the actors don't know any more than we do. That's right, they don't. They haven't been told, their guesses are as good as ours. I mean look at Felton for instance, he thought Draco would die in OOTP.

Chris Columbus said he foreshadowed the events of GOF - not beyond, keep that in mind.

Steve Kloves has not said who he thinks are the final couple. He has however written in several H/Hr scenes under JKR's watchful eye and JKR thinks he's guessed very shrewdly.

JKR - We don't know what she supports. She never gives away the plot in interviews. ALL her answers have been subject to interpretation, no author gives away their story before it's over.

On the rest of your post, i'll just say this: None of our interpretations are set in stone and should be assumed correct before book 7 is released and in our hands. On another note, welcome to the thread, and as Hawk would say - Cheers!

migo

July 27th, 2003, 11:09 pm

To Evaluna regarding Hermione getting emotional:

Hermione is emotional simply because Harry isn't bickering. He's plainly shouting and demonstrating that he's not sweet Harry anymore. He's tired of it all and not afraid to show it. He also demonstrates in OotP that he will never be interested in Hermione. He treats her just like he treats Ron. He wants to be alone and in OotP he spends half the book alone. That means that Ron and Hermione also spend half the book alone together. From Grimmauld Place to the end.

I'm not a R/Hr shipper... I'm not a anything shipper. I just think that those who picture Harry and Hermione together are losing a "war" at every released book. :no:

Just a question: Did you know that constant bickering at young ages is usually a sign of affection and difficulty in dealing with one's emotions? :cool:

Rowena Ravenclaw

July 27th, 2003, 11:17 pm

JKR implores the use of "interruptions" when dealing with Harry thinking about Hermione or his feelings for her.

"Implores?" You mean, "employs," Sarmi? Or is it "implies"?

Maybe "implies" is just what I'm reading into it. After all, my major problem with the interruptions theory (and forgive me if this has been dicussed before) is that it delves too far into the realm of speculation. After all, to say that something's being interrupted, you have to know which way it's heading. What to an H/Hr shipper looks like interruption (specifically, interruption that prevents Harry from developing romantic thoughts about Hermione) often looks to someone else like a way of avoiding a boring or obscure tangent by restoring the normal flow of conversation and action. I, for one, don't see much reason not to accept it as the latter, especially since I also don't see much evidence Rowling employs interruption with her other clues. In most cases, she just inserts them into the text, without deliberately drawing attention toward or away from them.

Joshman687

July 27th, 2003, 11:26 pm

Yeah i disagree with the interuption theory too. There isnt enough evidence in the text, its scattered and relatively insignificant.

sone

July 27th, 2003, 11:30 pm

Hermione has never liked seeing Harry miserable. When they do bicker, Hermione is not crying at all. It is when she knows Harry is miserable or in danger that she does. OOTP is actually the real first sign of Harry liking Hermione back. He already she was pretty in GOF but OOTP took it even further. The dream, the voice sounding like Hermione's which he actually listens to at least on one occasion and even down to his school work.

Did you know that constant bickering at young ages is usually a sign of affection and difficulty in dealing with one's emotions? :cool:

Yes, but you are describing Ron, not Hermione. Even with that said, Ron still goes out of his way sometimes to be rude to her.

GilyAnn

July 27th, 2003, 11:31 pm

First an answer to lleyki who I own a response.

Tsk, Tsk, Lleyki discrediting your opponent by going on personal beliefs it’s a tsk, tsk! :evil: ;) I'm just kidding!

Hermione blushes around Ron when he talks about Krum. Blushing around Ron is something that Hermione does often. She blushes on the Krum issue, she blushes when he tells her what Rita Seeker made her out to be. Blushing around Ron is something that Hermione does often. Hermione didn’t seem to mind all the gossip about what went out in the newspaper. She doesn’t blush to Harry when the article comes out. And this does regard her personal life. Take that and put it on the CoS scene where Malfoy tells Harry that he gotten himself a girlfriend and look at how Ginny blushes. If Hermione would display any feelings for Harry she would blushed around Harry and feel embarrassed about the whole subject. But Hermione doesn’t feel embarrassed at the teasing She doesn’t dignify them with an answer and she keeps her head held up high. On the contrary to that Hermione is embarrassed and blushes around Ron when he brings up the subject about Krum which also includes her personal life.

I think a few pages back they were examples back on how Hermione displayed more consideration for simple things on Ron than on bigger ones for Harry. I do believe that she does. In the Harry and Ron fight she displays understanding for Ron’s feelings not Harry’s. Hermione shows that even though she fights with Ron (and contrary of what H/Hr believe) she does know Ron more than what we all think. Sure she shows consideration towards Harry bringing him breakfast and offered him to walk. But she doesn’t understand Harry’s feelings. She understands Ron’s. Again if Hermione is bound to be Harry’s girlfriend I expect her to be able to provide with an emotional support and for her to be able to understand his feelings and justify them. Hermione in some sort of way, justify’s Ron’s feelings to Harry which had no need. I think the ones with bigger problems was Harry (I do believe that he was on his self pity mode, though) but Hermione justify’s Ron’s reasons not Harry’s. I’m not questioning here her actions and I’m not accusing her of being insensitive. She displayed a normal understanding and support of a FRIEND. But that’s it no more no less. The fact that she justify, understands and displays a feeling of being sorry for Ron tells me that her affections are directed towards Ron not Harry. Again Harry and Hermione are friends I don’t question that. But the fight showed clearly to me that Hermione is attracted to Ron not Harry.

On Occlumency Hermione nags and annoys Harry to practice when he is sick she sends Ron to check on him. She behaves like a true friend. I don’t questions Hermione’s care for Harry (I do question Harry’s. But that’s another story) But then “her frostiness seems to melt” when she sees Ron having a bad Quidditch practice. Yes Ron over reacted but OoP focus was on Ron’s insecurities, GoF is focus on Hermione’s insecurities. OoP is Ron who barges out of the room. GoF was Hermione barging out of the room. OoP was Ron being insecure of being good enough for Hermione. GoF was Hermione being insecure of being good enough for Ron. BTW you mention that Hermione and Ron suspected that Harry wasn’t telling the truth about his visions. Is funny that you mention it because it’s one of the time where I see that Hermione and Ron are off vision and it’s implied yet people still say that R/Hr shippers are speculating on this. Is also one of the times where I see that Harry is aside from his friends. It showed a little bit that Harry is beginning to separate from his friends. Which I clearly see it happening.

Overall I see Hermione understanding Ron’s feelings better than she understands Harry’s.

I don’t think for one second that Hermione kissed Ron to being manipulative. That doesn’t strike me as Hermione. It’s one of the reasons that I object to the theory that Hermione was shaking off Ginny by telling Harry that she had given up on him. I do believe that she did for friendship kissing him but in that she encourages him and I do believe that both have feelings for each other. So I don’t see that she did anything wrong because she likes him and she likes her. I don’t see anything wrong in the kiss. I was pointing out that if Hermione wouldn’t have feelings for Ron (like h/hr say she doesn’t) she wouldn’t have kissed him because Hermione knows that Ron may fellings for her. If she really didn’t want anything with Ron she would try to brush him off a lot. And I don’t see Hermione doing that. Sure they have their disagreements but not brushing him off to the point of avoiding him regarding romantic feelings (I confused myself on this one let me know if I wasn’t clear enough)

On the subject of Ron being Cruel. I find that H/Hr usually seem to focus on that. One poster which I honestly can’t remember who it was said in one occasion that he/she understood that Ron had his good moments but it was the bad ones he remember. I don’t do that. I weight and see how does it comes up. But if I weight them Hermione has been almost equally cruel to Ron the same amount of times. Yet I always see that H/Hr shippers don’t see that. She responds to him a lot of times on harsh manner and sometimes takes few considerations of hurting his feelings. How is this love story possible? You’ll have to ask JKR that. Although I sometimes get the idea that she considers having a blazing row normal. Even with all of this I still see Hermione’s feelings directed to Ron. Perhaps she is frustrated for Ron’s lack of impulses to do something romantically and OoP does have a telling on that issue as well as GoF. But I do believe that Ron and Hermione have been almost equally cruel to each other and several issues. That’s why I have always stated that if R/Hr are meant to be together will probably see them on book 7.

Also H/Hr shippers are usually bashing Ron and some claim that they can’t be that much of friends and it’s obvious that Harry must end with Hermione. In fact shippers usually refer to Ginny as being useless. The girl can’t even cheer, understand and control Harry as she is now a slut, inconsiderate, cruel and thoughless. First she was too stupid now she is too “stretty” for Harry. Either way she can’t win. Ron and Hermione obviously don’t get along, that Ron is cruel etc, etc. Even with the tons of examples that they do get along together that they are friends and that they do appreciate each other. So bashing a character to justify a ship has been long done. I don’t bash Hermione in fact now that I debate with a R/Hr shipper. I realize that Hermione is simply made out not to be Harry’s love interest. JKR created her to be with Ron not Harry. She can’t possibly have tact and sense regarding some of Harry’s issues simply because she isn’t made out to be his girlfriend. The same goes for Harry he simply doesn’t feel jealous or threaten simply because he wasn’t created to be with Hermione.

Hermione may be brilliant but her role is that being brilliant. Is it fair? That’s JKR questions to answer not mine. But to me it seems clear that Hermione’s role in Harry’s life is to be his researcher, sidekick and friend but not his girlfriend. When in love they are clearly made out for other people in writing terms and in personality terms also. BTW business partners are best friends. I though I made that clear obviously I didn’t I apologize. What I meant is that they are nice friends but they should stay at that. Crossing the line will be destroying their friendship. And I for once think that it would be a huge mistake. If anything OoP proved to me is that JKR wasn’t joking when she said that they are very platonic friends.

Flying Phoenix can you explain to me some points please?
First, Ron tries to order her to go back to bed. Not a good thing. Then, instead of ignoring her, which is what Harry does, he answers back rudely and displays his utter lack of concern for her. Now, for Hermione--apart from following the other two and poking into their business, she even makes the statement that she's going to rat on them if they all get caught, and that the other two should support her. Not a good thing either. The worst thing of all is that this isn't even one of the more personal fights in the series between Ron and Hermione, so I'll leave it alone as much as I can. This is at best an example of Ron and Hermione's different personalities clashing, but the worst is yet to come.

How does this show that they are not compatible? Because I hardly think that JKR was thinking Romance when writing this. In fact this part was supposed to be funny. Which BTW I did find it funny.

Hermione belittles Ron's intelligence by telling him he's doing it wrong, and Ron belittles hers with the "...if you're so clever" remark. And when she shows him up, he's even more angry. This is where it all begins: I seriously do not think that Ron will be able to handle Hermione always one-upping him. Ron needs to excel; he needs to be with a girl who will not always be willing to make him look bad to enhance her own intelligence--which is what Hermione does. Even as of OotP, Ron is annoyed by the fact that Hermione constantly surpasses him intellectually. He can't keep up with her, and this BOTHERS him.

First I'm shocked :wow: that you say that Hermione belittles Ron. I was beggining to loose hope that some H/Hr will say a word like that regarding Hermione. ;) But do explain to me who likes being humiliated? Hermione did this twice. First on the train and then in this time. Explain to me how is it that Ron is supposed to be delighted that Hermione can do a spell that she is humiliating him with it. I trully lost your point here.

We also see one of the many occasions throughout the series in which Ron makes a snide remark about Hermione behind her back. What's interesting is that Hermione has said a few rather nasty things about Ron behind his back as well, though this only occurs around GoF and OotP (possibly because this is when we see more of Harry and Hermione alone). Trust is important in a relationship, no doubt, and I have a hard time picturing alot of trust springing up between two people who have been known to make a few disparaging remarks about the other, unbeknownst to them.

I’m lost here again. Perhaps I’m a bit slow today so do forgive me. Are you referring to no you are not. Again I lost you here so can you please be a bit more specific for little old me.

Hermione shows more concern for Ron than Harry simply baffles me. The part of the passage preceding the excerpt I posted shows that Ron is clearly humiliated, mortified, and absolutely horrified at the Howler--and all that Hermione can do is begin to tell him that he deserved it. Now where do we see Hermione expressing the same "I told you so" attitude towards Harry? Harry goofs and gets his comeuppance plenty of times, and Hermione never tells him he deserved it. Before an opposing shipper attempts to list an example of Hermione doing just that, let me just say that Ron does the exact same thing to Hermione in GoF when she gets the hate mail from the Daily Prophet readers. He even says, "I told her!" This is yet another instance of Ron and Hermione caring mostly about one-upping each other rather than disputing and disagreeing constructively.

Your example brings me a point on how Hermione understands Ron better. Look on how she tells him that she doesn’t know what he expected. Like she knew that he was expecting not to get a howler. She knows he is embarrassed, she knows what he is feeling.

Why don't we see Harry constantly trying to mooch of Hermione's work?

I don't think this has anything to do with romance. I think this is simply because Harry doesn’t beg. Harry’s is an abused child. He is used to not to beg or plead. Growing up with the Dursley’s makes Harry a person that no matter how hard his having it he won’t let people know his weakness.

Ron insults Lockhart, even though he knows that Hermione in all her foolish fancy is going to rise to the bait and defend him.

Ron (and half of Howgarts) doesn’t like Lockheart. I don’t understand what the connection to love is between nobody liking Lockhart and Ron expressing it. I think he simply said what he though. If you have to watch out what you say and have caution about expressing your feelings in a relationship then there is something wrong.

What I mean is that if the books don't go H/Hr, the D/E chemistry could be a problem for the movies. If the books go R/Hr they may need to recast and get a pair with stronger chemistry. H/G could also be a problem because IMO there wasn't much there between Dan and the girl playing Ginny.

This brings an interesting point. BTW Turambar we did agreed on something and we nail it Harry did go out with Cho and he did get with her to get over his crush. Ok please all of you answer me if you ship H/Hr because of the books or because of how cute D/E look together and how obviously they seem to fit each other. Because if shippers here sail h/hr because of how cute Dan and Emma look there is no point on debating. I’m trully wasting my time. How many movies have we seen where the starts simply don’t have chemistry between each other. How many movies have we seen were we see a pair and say ‘Uhg I would have pair it up with this other girl.’ I don’t think that Dan and Emma’s chemistry is something that it’s part on what jkr writes the book. While you may all will tell me that the movie producers brought them up to bring up the ‘chemistry’ between Harry and Hermione in the books. This kids I believe were picked apart considering their talents not their chemistry. I don’t want to think that people here sail a ship because of chemistry between two actors. The though scares me!

Gily Ann

haycheng

July 27th, 2003, 11:43 pm

hi migo welcome to the love post!!
you post:
Just a question: Did you know that constant bickering at young ages is usually a sign of affection and difficulty in dealing with one's emotions?
The answer is no. I am not a person who bicker a lot. Well, actually I bickered alot but only with my sisters and parents.

The OFTP certainly is darker and Harry is more angry. However, is he really changed that much? To me, he still mantain some of his sweet character. He is still a caring person when he is acting normal(care about his godfather, worry about Hermione's feeling about elve, etc.)

To RR
I am not a fan of symobolic or interrupt theory(interesting and may hold some true). To me Ron and Hermione simply argue too much, different in too many different way. Neither has make efford to change, accept these differences either.

By the way, I am not 13 years old, and I do believe everyone can have their opinion ever they are young. It is just a love post. It is not a debate about tax cut or anything like that. Just enjoy the arguement and have fun. Just like all bicker couple do. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Turambar

July 27th, 2003, 11:43 pm

Gily Ann, just speaking for myself I ship H/Hr because of the books: it's what I prefer and I also see strongs signs of it in cannon.
The fact that D/E have strong chemistry playing those roles is a bonus.
The point I was trying to make was that if JKR goes H/Hr in the books, it will work well for the movies because that particular pair of actors has a stronger chemistry than Rupert and Emma have together. On the other hand I can see problems for the movies if the books go R/Hr and on screen the actors playing H/Hr have a natural rapport/attraction and seem more suited to each other than the actors playing R/Hr, the supposed couple. It would seem rather fake to me.
Obviously it's totally up to JKR which way it goes.

Sarmi

July 27th, 2003, 11:45 pm

"Implores?" You mean, "employs," Sarmi? Or is it "implies"?

No, it's employs. JKR uses interruptions throughout her main plot, it's not that difficult to continue it to her other subplots. However, the hard thing to tell with JKR is how her subplots and her main plot are intertwined. As the saying goes, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive." JKR definitely likes to trick her readers, you just got to have your wits about you when figuring things out.

After all, my major problem with the interruptions theory (and forgive me if this has been dicussed before) is that it delves too far into the realm of speculation. After all, to say that something's being interrupted, you have to know which way it's heading. What to an H/Hr shipper looks like interruption (specifically, interruption that prevents Harry from developing romantic thoughts about Hermione) often looks to someone else like a way of avoiding a boring or obscure tangent by restoring the normal flow of conversation and action. I, for one, don't see much reason not to accept it as the latter, especially since I also don't see much evidence Rowling employs interruption with her other clues. In most cases, she just inserts them into the text, without deliberately drawing attention toward or away from them.

I do take it that you read my post at the top of this page showing an interruption by Ron when Hermione mentions Krum. Hermione is praising Harry, he should be reacting to that praise. He reacts to Cho's praises, why don't we see him reacting to Hermione's praises?

Sarmi

haycheng

July 27th, 2003, 11:50 pm

Hi GilyAnn
I do not know have you done so or not. However, can you list all the moment for Hermione shows caring toward Ron. I need some help to see them as I believe my vision is clouded(I believe Hawk drugs my beer when I drink with fellow H/Hr shippers).

By the way, still support H/G and believe it could happen. Still very anti-H/R though.

Joshman687

July 27th, 2003, 11:53 pm

Yeah im anti hermionie ron, i just dont think they are good 4 each other, i support harry and hermionie, theyre perfect 4 each other

Rowena Ravenclaw

July 28th, 2003, 12:07 am

No, it's employs. JKR uses interruptions throughout her main plot, it's not that difficult to continue it to her other subplots. However, the hard thing to tell with JKR is how her subplots and her main plot are intertwined. As the saying goes, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive." JKR definitely likes to trick her readers, you just got to have your wits about you when figuring things out.

Indeed you do. However, I maintain that you have to watch for what's said and done, more often that what's left unsaid. What non-romantic interruptions do you have in mind?

I do take it that you read my post at the top of this page showing an interruption by Ron when Hermione mentions Krum. Hermione is praising Harry, he should be reacting to that praise. He reacts to Cho's praises, why don't we see him reacting to Hermione's praises?

I could just say, "because Cho's the one Harry has a crush on," but I doubt that would be an acceptable response. However, this is also the second time Hermione's praised Harry's Defense Against the Dark Arts abilities. Rowling doesn't need them to go through the conversation again. And after having Harry put up such pronounced opposition to Hermione's evaluation the first time, it doesn't make sense that this particular example would cause any sort of major epiphany, even if Ron hadn't started in about "Vicky."

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 12:08 am

DD the Wise: I don't agree at all with your position on the likelihood of R/Hr but I really love your sig quotes...so we've got that in common!

Once more, just for the record, JKR has said her quotes are always book-specific unless she states otherwise. The "platonic" H/Hr quote by JKR was made around the time of the PoA publication with no further qualifications, which means it was applicable to PoA and not necessarily beyond that.

On the other point, we on our side of the house have thoroughly defended Hermione's relationship to Harry as not being "motherlike" in any way, specifically from Harry's POV. That is, according to Harry's thoughts and actions, there is nothing in canon to support that he views Hermione as a mother figure. This is the personal interpretation of some but IMO there is nothing from Harry's POV in canon to back it up. Please refer to posts by Ilyeki, Mar Dhea, and me earlier in this thread [that’s just offhand and there are probably others]. Mine was on page 8 of this thread, Mar Dhea’s excellent one shortly thereafter, and Ilyeki’s amazing treatise more recently [like within the past 5-10 pages].
There, you can grab concrete stuff from our text and rip to shreds for debating purposes ;)
Don’t worry, we’re not offended if you do and it gives us all something to work from.

Migo: welcome to our thread and I see HayCheng has already responded. Please let me know if you’ve read the many excellent posts on our discussion of mutual disrespect [from our perspective, of course, not necessarily yours] between Ron and Hermione. Again, please do feel free to grab parts or all of said posts to pick apart – it’s all good – and we can go from there. Feel free to start with mine on page 16 of current thread . And of course, feel free to put forth your own quotes or interpretations and ask for response. It’s just a bit easier when I know exactly what’s being debated or discussed.

GilyAnn: at the very bottom of your post, I think we find some common ground coming from different places regarding the actors. As far as I can see [on the astral plane of course ;) sorry, it’s classified…], the actors seem like lovely persons. However I simply won’t speculate on anything regarding the persons themselves. We 00 agents value our privacy :cool: But I do think that JKR’s fine hand will guide and that her input will not be ignored – so take that for what you will….

HayCheng: it's not drugs, but it [i]may be legilimency...though Hawk will surely neither confirm nor deny...;)

Sarmi

July 28th, 2003, 12:28 am

Indeed you do. However, I maintain that you have to watch for what's said and done, more often that what's left unsaid. What non-romantic interruptions do you have in mind?

Well, the only one that I can think of off the top of my head was during one of Harry's Oculmency lessons. Harry asks Snape about why he refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord, then we are "interrupted" by Trenlawney's screams from the Entrance Hall. Is that good enough?

However, this is also the second time Hermione's praised Harry's Defense Against the Dark Arts abilities. Rowling doesn't need them to go through the conversation again. And after having Harry put up such pronounced opposition to Hermione's evaluation the first time, it doesn't make sense that this particular example would cause any sort of major epiphany, even if Ron hadn't started in about "Vicky."

If I recall correctly, the first time she praises his accomplishments in DADA is the first time she broaches the subject with him about teaching them. He's too shocked to comprehend what she's talking about, even Ron makes a jab at Harry's stupor. Ron begins to recite what Harry has done, Harry tries to explain his way out of it, and we even see Ron & Hermione smirking about it. Harry gets angry and yells at them for making fun of him. Harry doesn't get a chance to really think about it.

It's the second time that Hermione brings it up that we find Harry has entertained the thought and does like the idea. Hermione begins her praises, yet Ron interrupts when she begins to compare Harry & Viktor, and clearly Harry is much better than Viktor.

I guess the thing that I'm trying to point out is that you do react to someone praising you; Harry reacts to Cho's praises, Harry's reacted to Sirius' praises, Lupin's praises, Molly's, etc. Why don't we see the reaction from Hermione's praises? That's all I'm trying to point out. Why keep us in the dark about the reaction if there's nothing to happen between Harry & Hermione?

I'm not trying to point out a major ephiany, it definitely wouldn't be there. However, it would be nice to see how Harry thinks of Hermione instead of just her usual self.

Sarmi

Turambar

July 28th, 2003, 12:30 am

Evaluna: Actors can have good chemistry together on screen without being together off screen and vice versa.

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 12:34 am

Turambar: Exactly. My statement was just a general one [owing to the nature of 00 activities and so forth...]. And your general reply was perfect :)

lleyki

July 28th, 2003, 12:44 am

Okay you know what I think I'll end this here. I HATE repeating myself over and over. It's annoying and waste of time in my opinion. As such Gilyann you and I will continue to go around in circles here on this, with NOTHING being accomplished so I'll just let this rest.

I am sorry. I have read GOF at least eight times, I have read that scene with Harry and Hermione over and over and I NEVER saw and NEVER will see anything but one friend trying to mend a bad situation among her two best friends. Period. You continue to say she didn't understand Harry's needs or what he was feeling there; but Gilyann the fact is what Harry was feeling was CONFUSION. He couldn't understand why Ron would believe he would lie. So she explained; that's it. I mean judging by your comments; one would think Hermione was CONSTANTLY explaining Ron's feelings to Harry and she WASN'T. She explained ONCE and that was it. So again I'm just going to calmly(for my sanity's sake) leave this alone because you and I are on parellel roads on this issue. I would like to state one more thing. Could you please say SOME H/Hr shippers when making bold statements? There were MANY things in your posts that I as a H/Hr shipper have NEVER said.

QUOTE
On Occlumency Hermione nags and annoys Harry to practice when he is sick she sends Ron to check on him. She behaves like a true friend. I don’t questions Hermione’s care for Harry (I do question Harry’s. But that’s another story) But then “her frostiness seems to melt” when she sees Ron having a bad Quidditch practice. Yes Ron over reacted but OoP focus was on Ron’s insecurities, GoF is focus on Hermione’s insecurities. OoP is Ron who barges out of the room. GoF was Hermione barging out of the room. OoP was Ron being insecure of being good enough for Hermione. GoF was Hermione being insecure of being good enough for Ron. BTW you mention that Hermione and Ron suspected that Harry wasn’t telling the truth about his visions. Is funny that you mention it because it’s one of the time where I see that Hermione and Ron are off vision and it’s implied yet people still say that R/Hr shippers are speculating on this. Is also one of the times where I see that Harry is aside from his friends. It showed a little bit that Harry is beginning to separate from his friends. Which I clearly see it happening.

Yes you question Harry's caring for Hermione; as do ALOT of R/Hr and H/G shippers alike.
Gilyann HOW did you see OOTP as focusing on Ron's insecurities when as far as I've read Ron's been battling with his insecurities for EVERY book. Funny I thought OOTP was focusing on Harry's issues and emotions of anger, resentment, fear, etc. At WHAT point in GOF was there focusing on Hermione's insecurities and WHERE in OOTP was Ron showing himself feeling insecure about being good enough for Hermione or her showing that in GOF? These statements fall along on the line of Hermione showing more compassion and warmth for Ron over little things as opposed to Harry over big things. You haven't shown much textual evidence to support ANY of these statements and I am HONESTLY not trying to be rude here but I can't debate where the statements are purely opinion. I mean you can have personal opinions. Trust me I have TONS. I could post for hours on how I personally see this or that but if I making an argument, it's because I saw evidence in the text to support it. Again this was not meant in ANY offense but again I think it's best if we just agree to disagree on a number of things.

Rowena Ravenclaw

July 28th, 2003, 12:46 am

Well, the only one that I can think of off the top of my head was during one of Harry's Oculmency lessons. Harry asks Snape about why he refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord, then we are "interrupted" by Trenlawney's screams from the Entrance Hall. Is that good enough?

Given the way the encounter has been going up to that point, as well as everything we know about Snape, particularly his relationship with Harry and his openness about his past, are we likely to get a straight answer out of him here? Probably not. The scream just puts a temporary end to the tension and snarkiness on both sides, allowing the plot to move forward.

I guess the thing that I'm trying to point out is that you do react to someone praising you; Harry reacts to Cho's praises, Harry's reacted to Sirius' praises, Lupin's praises, Molly's, etc. Why don't we see the reaction from Hermione's praises? That's all I'm trying to point out. Why keep us in the dark about the reaction if there's nothing to happen between Harry & Hermione?

I guess what I'm trying to point out is, why bother with the reaction if it's not of direct importance? We have seen Harry's response to Hermione's praise on other occasions, so there's no real need to emphasize this instance. And Rowling's already taken note of the fact Harry's attitude has changed before Hermione makes her comment about Viktor, so unless it plays any further role in his decision to accept, there's no reason to waste time with a response.

Sarmi

July 28th, 2003, 1:37 am

The scream just puts a temporary end to the tension and snarkiness on both sides, allowing the plot to move forward.

But isn't this classified as an "interruption"?

I guess what I'm trying to point out is, why bother with the reaction if it's not of direct importance? We have seen Harry's response to Hermione's praise on other occasions, so there's no real need to emphasize this instance. And Rowling's already taken note of the fact Harry's attitude has changed before Hermione makes her comment about Viktor, so unless it plays any further role in his decision to accept, there's no reason to waste time with a response.

Well, see I'm of the mindset that JKR shows us what's not that important. What is important is still hidden.

Well, it's been great! Great posts guys! :tu: :agree: :tu:

Gotta go to bed! Nigt all!

Sarmi

Dumblydore

July 28th, 2003, 2:00 am

Grace Granger

July 28th, 2003, 2:03 am

All I can say is great posts to all of my HMS Harmony SHIPmates! :clappy:

noddwyd

July 28th, 2003, 3:55 am

*sigh*....well, I think there are a few points not mentioned here in this thread (although they may have surfaced in the previous one, which I have not read) and that I meant to bring up before and forgot about them. First, I want to try explain the pov I use when searching for pairing evidence. Trying to think of how pairing particular characters will affect the rest of them and how it will change the flow of the story overall, and most importantly how it will appear to the reader, will it be believable.
What we see of this world comes from Harry's perspective, except for the opening scenes of book one. So this limits my personal insight as to how these things will affect the other characters, although I believe there are a good deal of things that we readers see that Harry does not because we are outsiders and he can be blindsided more easily. But Obviously the characters that are given the most depth are those that are closest to Harry, and we know and understand them because Harry interacts with them so often. So, the most fleshed out and lifelike characters aside from Harry himself are Hermione, and Ron, his two best friends.

The first of these I want to try and analyze is Ron. To start, he is a pureblooded wizard, and was raised in the magical world. This means he carries many of the community's prejudices and viewpoints. He was also raised in a large family, and though they are somewhat poor, he always had lots of attention from them. Unfortunately, it also gives him several older brothers that have set the measuring bar so high his neck often gets sore looking up at it. On top of that, he becomes best friends with Harry and Hermione, and I don't think I need to explain how that further overshadows him in more ways than I care to count. Hell, I'm surprised his hair hasn't gone from red to green at this point. This leads to him taking any and all 'chances to shine' he can get. This is also the biggest reason he has serious problems with jealousy regarding both Harry and Hermione. There are many times when this jealousy comes into play, probably the worst of which are when he and Harry are not on speaking terms in Gof and, of course, the very nasty arguements he and Hermione had regarding Krum and who went with who to the yule ball. In general, Ron is jealous of Hermione's intelligence and ability, and Harry's being rich and famous on top of having a lot of talent.
Now taking all of that into account, how will different pairings affect him? The first possibility I considered was H/Hr. Now it is obvious that Ron has become possessive of Hermione since the fourth year, and obviously he would be jealous. In more ways than one. He would also see this as his two friends (who are more talented than him in his eyes) finally leaving him to eat their dust, and may end their friendship due to that coupled with the jealousy. The only way I see him accepting their relationship is if he 'gets over' Hermione (although it is still unclear to me exactly what his feelings for her were) and/or starts a relationship with someone else. Which brought me to R/L. From what little of her we know, it is easily surmised that she wants this type of attention from 'Ronald'. The question is, what does Ron think of her? We don't really know yet, so I leave this option open. Now for the more widely assumed one. R/Hr. I have never doubted that there may be emotions like this btw the two. Espescially on Ron's part. But the thing is, if it ever actually happened, just from analyzing their personalities alone, I came to the immediate conclusion that it would last for about 10 seconds and then they would start thinking "gnawing my own leg off might be a more better way to spend my time....more....more better...." (yes, I love Strongbad) However, if they somehow get past all their differences, then it could still work. But I just don't see either of them changing their personalities to make it work. So in conclusion on Ron's point of view, it seemed that the best thing for his character would be to get over Hermy, and get with Luna, to put it bluntly. (Interestingly enough, it appears that Luna is almost like Hermione's antithesis, but in a good way, if you know what I mean) At the moment, Ron seems to be holding back, for the sake of the trio, I guess.

ahh, this is gonna be longer than I thought, so I'll seperate it. I'll add the other parts with Harry's and Hermione's pov later.

Doxys

July 28th, 2003, 4:31 am

Gily Ann:

Excellent :tu: post, it's good to read something that have evidence in the books:agree: .

Second its clear for me Dan and Emma really look very good together but Harry and Hermione NOT :upset: . If we read all the books its clear that Emma don’t look like Hermione (the girl of all the books) why? I said that because I never see Emma acting like Hermione have a bushy hair that Hermione have, I never see look like have rather large front teeth and finally Emma characterizing Hermione its more easy that the real Hermione it is. I love the books because are exactly the words of JK Rowling and for me this it’s the real importan thing.

Peace
Doxys

http://twinkle-twinkle.net/astronomy.jpg
She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.
JK Rowling

MoF

July 28th, 2003, 6:08 am

Hold it! I don't think anybody said that H/Hr will happen just because Dan and Emma may look better on screen, or because they have a certain
"chemistry". There hundreds of posts arguing for H/Hr, and none of them have argued with Dan and Emma in mind. People just mentioned that it might be easier for the moviemakers if H/Hr happened because of Dan and Emma's chemistry.

Personally, I never truly liked the two movies so far, I don't think they mirrored the suspense of the books satisfactory. I am more excited abput PoA with a new director, though.

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 6:42 am

Flying Phoenix can you explain to me some points please?
Uhm, GilyAnn I think you mean Earendil. But if I'm wrong tell me I would lovely explain somethings.

Let look I see here many great post so everybody get a :tu: :)

Now to something else. You know I can't stand if people always say if Hermione was a guy than all H/Hr were nothing. Well, this gos pretty much in the other direction.

Say Ron was a girl, wait let say he is Ginny. Now on the Yule Ball Ginny has a second hand clothes and a date which she didn't want. She is looking after her best friend Hermione which has a date what she don't know who it is.

At the Ball she spoted Hermione with the famose quiditch player and champion but this isn't all she looks very beautyfull too. Do you realise how little and unimportant Ginny dos feel now? Her two best friends are in the light even this bookworm is it. You are jealousy and tell her she betray Harry. You call Krum disrespectful Vicky and you do it always. You not only jealousy about how much Hermione is in the light you are even jealousy that Krum make out your plain friend a normal if not amazing girl. This isn't anymore your best friend who you know since the first year.

Is Ginny a lesbian? No

See it works very well if I turn Ron into Ginny.

sone

July 28th, 2003, 6:51 am

It is a bonus no doubt (Dan and Emma on screen), but H/Hr is just what I see from the books and I think they have great chemistry. There is a much more established need between those two than anyone else.

Turambar

July 28th, 2003, 8:08 am

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 9:39 am

All right a little bit about this pic and about the movies. Let me see it straight this pic looks for me as if this is the scene where the tree is going to hit Harry and Hermione. We do all know they can't bring it like that its kinda violant. So they do change it into a scene very much alike to the grawp scene.
About the clothes they are very much right in time because so around 1994 was the colour pink very popular the same count for this blue jacket.

Now about the movies. Its quiet right that in this two movies were many R/Hr scenes but they just didn't work. It wasn't that much chemesty between this two actress. Now is it because of the actress or because of the scenes? I rather think its because of the story. Its simple Harry is the hero so we do identife with him much more as with Ron. So if Hermione in the movie smile or Harry speak or hug her than its natural for us to say thats right they belong together.
For every normal Hollywood-regisseur would be very pleasent if H/Hr happen. You can count on it that movie-maker no matter who it is will bring more chemestry between H/Hr.
Thats the different thats what I talking the whole time that on the screen or if you imagine this books into your head than you or better me think H/Hr is right.
This don't has anything to do with shipping its just how it is how will you make a movie with Harry as the ultimative hero and bring R/Hr in it?
By the way I don't talk about Star Wars because in this movies was never this chemistry between Luke and Laila because the regisseur did know they are sister and brother. By HP is it very different there in canon is already chemistry they need to make it visible.

sone

July 28th, 2003, 9:43 am

I agree Turambar. In Book Five alone, there is a considerable amount of body language and comfortability that they have that seems to come naturally rather than forcefully. Rita's articles have a ring a truth to them.

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 9:45 am

1st: To my fellow shippers, great posts and much love!

Next: MEM, that sig avatar is really cute, like a 7th year kind of thing, yeah?

FP: your transgender analysis was very interesting and yeah, I agree, Ron could have displayed the exact same kinds of jealous behaviours if he were a female best friend of Hermione's. Because, as noddwyd also just mentioned [can't wait for 2nd half of your post, BTW], it's envy as well that Ron seems to display -- he's envious of Harry's acclaim, his wealth, and of Harry's raw power and natural leadership abilities. This we know well from GoF and Ron's falling out with Harry. However Ron has also always seemed envious of Hermione's academic skill and knowledge, and thus at his worst, Ron has sometimes denigrated her abilities from his envy. And then in GoF, horrors, she's gaining notoriety and acclaim as well, due to Krum's status in the international quidditch arena and Krum's attentions toward Hermione. It's difficult to sort out the degree to which Ron wants to possess Hermione from the degree to which Ron wants to possess that which Hermione has, i.e., her intellect, her skill, and admiration for who she is as a person from both Harry and now Viktor Krum.

I also agree with your assessment of the films in that ultimately R/Hr would be a distraction. In part b/c Harry [I]is the hero, the main character. So if R/Hr were to happen, realistically we'd not see much anyway, so the only point would perhaps be to isolate Harry from R/Hr. However, as HayCheng and so many others have said [JKR among them !!!], Harry needs Hermione [desperately], thus how could Ron possibly stand Harry's need for Hermione and Hermione's top regard for Harry? Ron's not the…er…accommodating type that way, is he? Not thus far.

IMO and there's no offense meant to any, but I agree with Ecthelion, Ilyeki, et al, regarding Ron. He's the guy next door who really is pretty much just that, whereas Harry is the sleeper, the still waters that run very deep, who seemed at first to be the guy next door but who in fact has immense power and conviction -- specifically, the power and the capacity to change the world. Harry is passionate and outspoken in his resistance to evil -- he just needs Hermione to see him through his dark times. Ron represents the 'normal' or the conventional in the wizarding world [i.e., representing not the appeasers or the racists like Percy/Fudge or the Malfoys, but one who has grown up around such attitudes]. Ron is someone with whom many can identify and thus it's not surprising many sympathise with him.

Hermione, like Harry, is not an insider, not conventional, and not ordinary. Her intellect, her drive, and her passionate and outspoken opposition to prejudice and discrimination all set her apart. Like Harry, she too wants to change the world, and in both cases, it's for the better. Even though the fight may never truly end, still H/Hr feel it's worth the doing. Again, I can see why some favour Ron. He's usually friendly, not overly complicated, and his motivations seem nearer the surface. I liked Ron better after standing up for Harry re: Seamus and Percy in OoP than ever to date. Harry and Hermione, however, are much more complex. Their personal burdens are heavier [Harry's an orphan, marked for death, his capacities and thus obligations are skyhigh; Hermione is considered second-class, experiences frequent discrimination, and she knows her family are defenseless in the upcoming war] and they will neither of them ever be fully accepted by some. I think that for some, the depth and complexity of Harry and Hermione's characters are a bit scary, but that's why I love them. They're not confined to what society defines as 'normal' or average, and still they're very real and still they matter. It's a great theme, even if not preferred by all.

So whilst I understand the desire by some to have Ron land it all [including Hermione], I really hope and believe, like FP, that it's not the case. But cheers to those who do, anyway. And once more, great posts, FP & noddwyd.

Buckbeak

July 28th, 2003, 10:10 am

http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=2159&st=0

Read this essay done by some guy who knows what he's talking about, its quite long, but it has everything that should please H/Hr shippers.

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 10:20 am

Uhm, GilyAnn I think you mean Earendil. But if I'm wrong tell me I would lovely explain somethings.

Yes I do apologize. I was reading one of your posts while I did that. Earandil Sorry!

I think it's best if we just agree to disagree on a number of things.

Find with me. And no it’s not an opinion those are facts that are on the books and parallels made by jkr herself. I separate my opinions from Cannon.

Gily Ann

Ecthelion

July 28th, 2003, 10:21 am

http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=2159&st=0

Read this essay done by some guy who knows what he's talking about, its quite long, but it has everything that should please H/Hr shippers.

:D That guy happens to be on this forum as well, and posted that very post here as well! I'm glad you think it plausible though!

Buckbeak

July 28th, 2003, 10:23 am

:lol: yes i thought he might be, it seems most H/Hr shippers are on here. its good though cause i went on the forums in that Fan park (is that the name) and the place is dominated by R/Hr shippers and you kind of get blasted with abuse for even mentioning H/Hr :sad: everyone on here is much more friendly. :agree:

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 10:51 am

Well first I need to say thanks to Grace. Because you give me this little idea. I didn't even think about it.

Now just some facts about the:

seven deadly sins

Sin creates [an inclination] to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root."
Para. 1865, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994
Why bother?
Before even beginning a discussion of these Seven Deadly Sins, also known as "capital sins," it may be useful to discuss a few differences among Christians on this subject. Some people feel it is better to take a more positive approach to faith and not dwell on sin. Others believe all sin is equally repugnant to God, and so any classification of sins is wrong. Still others just want to forget the whole thing since they are saved and God loves them and really doesn't care about all this "stuff."
Inscribed in ancient times at the Oracle at Delphi: "Know thyself." Self-knowledge follows closely behind the knowledge of God, and self-knowledge for anyone means knowledge of sin. "My own heart shows me the way of the ungodly." Scripture says we are all sinners, and we don't mind as long as the sins are nameless and faceless. When we name a sin found in ourselves (by Grace) it is as though we are confronted in the back alleys of our souls with furtive saboteurs and muggers who seek to prevent our union with God. The sudden self-revelation of a serious fault is one thing: the discovery of a deadly sin which we hate very much in others is worse. It is like finding out a spouse is unfaithful, or worse, that we have been blindly unfaithful to the Spouse of our soul.
The following pages on the deadly sins may lead to horrible discoveries. Bear in mind:

1. Friends will almost never volunteer this information.
2. If they do, we will not accept it.
3. God forgives anything, even repeatedly, so do not be afraid.

A combination of good spiritual reading (nothing too recent), nearly constant prayer, and reflection on the repetitive patterns of life works well for naming our sins. Remarks made in job performance reviews and conversations with people who dislike us are especially revealing. Our enemies usually lack the false charity to deny our sins. No wonder we are called to love them.
The human capacity for self-delusion is nearly limitless. We have all seen people claim great spirituality but do evil things and then ignore or rationalize them. Somehow we think we are immune to this phenomenon.
The List of Capital (Deadly) Sins
The table below lists The Seven Deadly Sins (vices) in the traditional order with the virtues against which they are sins. The list of sins goes back at least to Pope St. Gregory the Great and St. John Cassian, but the Bible proscribes them all. If one or more of these doesn't seem like a big sin to you, it almost certainly means you have already rationalized it. Work on that one first. By the way, there is no set list of Virtues corresponding to these. I've just listed the ones that made sense at the time.
If you need additional information on Dante's views of these, it is after the table.

Pride (1): Oposite:Humility
Description of Pride:
Seeing ourselves as we are and not comparing ourselves to others is humility. Pride and vanity are competitive. If someone else's pride really bothers you, you have a lot of pride.

Avarice/Greed (5): Oposite: Generosity
Description of Avarice/Greed:
This is about more than money. Generosity means letting others get the credit or praise. It is giving without having expectations of the other person. Greed wants to get its "fair share" or a bit more.

Envy (2): Oposite:Love
Description of envy:
"Love is patient, love is kind…" Love actively seeks the good of others for their sake. Envy resents the good others receive or even might receive. Envy is almost indistinguishable from pride at times.

Wrath/Anger (3): Oposite:Kindness
Description of Anger:
Kindness means taking the tender approach, with patience and compassion. Anger is often our first reaction to the problems of others. Impatience with the faults of others is related to this.

Lust (7): Oposite:Self control
Description of lust:
Self control and self mastery prevent pleasure from killing the soul by suffocation. Legitimate pleasures are controlled in the same way an athlete's muscles are: for maximum efficiency without damage. Lust is the self-destructive drive for pleasure out of proportion to its worth. Sex, power, or image can be used well, but they tend to go out of control.

Gluttony (6): Oposite:Faith and Temperance
Description of Gluttony:
Temperance accepts the natural limits of pleasures and preserves this natural balance. This does not pertain only to food, but to entertainment and other legitimate goods, and even the company of others.

Sloth (4): Oposite: Zeal
Description of sloth:
Zeal is the energetic response of the heart to God's commands. The other sins work together to deaden the spiritual senses so we first become slow to respond to God and then drift completely into the sleep of complacency.

Origins
The Seven Deadly Sins never occur as a formal list in the Bible. Some people say they can all be found in Matthew's Gospel (chapters 5 through 7), but they are not in a simple list there.
These sins were identified as a group around the same time as the Bible was being translated into a single language. Rather than these sins being identified in a single place in the Bible, they are found all through it, from Genesis to Revelation. The letters of the New Testament mention all of these, and many others as well. The Catechism has many Scriptural references in the section that lists the "Seven Deadly Sins." It is well to remember that the Scriptures come from the Jewish and Christian Churches, not the other way around. In both cases, faith preceded the writing.
Lent
Lent is a special time of self-examination and thought about how we live. More on Lent.
Dante
Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) was a Catholic layman who wrote "The Divine Comedy," which is really three epic poems in Italian: "Inferno," "Purgatorio," and "Paradiso," which are about Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven/Paradise, respectively. In "Purgatorio," Dante places each of the seven sins on a level, with the higher levels closer to Paradise and the lower ones closer to Hell. The numbers in parentheses, in the above table, indicate the level where they are found in "Purgatorio." Dante considers these sins as offenses against love, and groups them accordingly:
Perverted Love: Pride, Envy, Wrath/Anger
Insufficient Love: Sloth
Excessive Love of Earthly Goods: Avarice/Greed, Gluttony, Lust
Dante seems to have had a well-formed conscience. His emphasis on love, in the sense of Christian charity, is impressive. That is not to claim some sort of sainthood, but his ideas were very much in keeping with the teaching of the Catholic Church at a time when the practice of the clergy often fell short of the doctrine.
C.S. Lewis
C.S. Lewis might well be considered a modern-day Dante. Try reading "The Great Divorce," a short little book, and compare it to "The Divine Comedy." Lewis, as a professor of medieval literature, would have been familiar with Dante's work.
Narnia and the Seven Deadly Sins - Dr. Don W. King, Department of English, Montreat College
The Dao
A little article considering the The Seven Deadly Sins from a somewhat Daoist perspective.
Christopher Marlowe
Donna Hatsuko Reedy wrote the following on May 18, 2000:
"I enjoyed your site; it's quite informative. Just wanted to add another text to your reading list: Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus. The entire play revolves around issues of salvation, and there's this great scene in which the seven deadly sins are paraded for Faustus. It'll make a great addition to your already well-supported site."
Thank you for the suggestion! I've put a link to the on-line text here for our readers.
The Tragical History of D. Faustus
Edmund Spenser
Alan Sickler wrote the following on April 26, 2000:
"I was reading your page on the "Seven Deadly" sins and thoroughly enjoyed your definitions of the sins; even better though was the literary occurrences of this that you outlined. However, I was perplexed as to why you failed to mention Spenser's "The Faerie Queene"; This work is one of the greatest Middle English / Renaissance pieces ever written, and it is maybe the greatest occurance of the seven deadly sins. I forget which book they are in, but Spenser characterizes each deadly sin as a person - using physiognomy tradition to visualize the vices, and he even models this parade of sins after the pilgrims in Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales". Gluttony rides a fat pig which is symbolic of his nature and etc etc. I don't know if you've read the Faerie Queen or not, but its maybe the most vital occurance of the seven deadly sins - a must read for an enthusist like yourself. Thanks for your time - I enjoyed your site thoroughly."
I will read it soon, but for now I've posted your kind and helpful comments, as well as a link to a Spenser site and "The Faerie Queene."
The Seven Deadly Sins Personified In The Faerie Queene by Lisa Hunt
Chaucer
More to be added soon
The Canterbury Tales - http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/gchaucer/bl-gchau-can-genpro.htm
Thomas Merton
Thomas Merton wrote a prayer to ask for help against the Seven Deadly Sins. It is found on page 44 of "New Seeds of Contemplation." Much of his focus is on the illusions we have about ourselves, and how to let God clear these away.
Stephen Sondheim
In the play: "Getting Away With Murder" (or "The Doctor is Out"), Patrick Phenicie (PATLi36@email.msn.com) says the following characters appear to represent the seven deadly sins. Here are the characters and sins:
Lust Pride Greed Envy (NV) Anger Sloth Gluttony
Dossie Lustig Pamela Prideaux Gregory Reed Nam-Young Voung Dan Gerard Chistholm Vassili Laimorgos
As you may have noticed, the names seem to form anagrams of the sins (or contain the anagram; some are obvious, some are less so). Patrick and I were unable to figure out how the name "Laimorgos" fits into Sonheim's naming scheme, but Christopher Sabatowich has an idea: Vassili Laimorgos can be rearranged (with some letters omitted) to form the word "smörgås," which is Norse/Swedish for "bread and butter," as in "smorgasbord." In English, "smorgasbord" can be applied as a "varied collection" of anything, and Gluttony does not apply (exclusively) to food.
T. Nickson writes: "Vassili Laimorgos is a Greek Name - Vassili links with the Greek word for King and Laimorgos translates literally as Glutton. Sondheim was being clever!"
John Gower
Confessio Amantis
Robert Mannyng
Handling Synne
Hieronymus Bosch
Table of the Seven Deadly Sins (about)
George Balanchine (Dance)
CiCi Houston writes: I found this website very useful for a current project I am working on. Perhaps it would be of interest to your readers to hear how this list has crept into the arts. The New York City Ballet had a production entitled "Seven Deadly Sins." It was originally choreographed by George Balanchine in Europe around 1933 for Tilly Losch. He restaged it in the late 50's for Allegra Kent, and in both productions Lotte Lenya participated. The ballet focused on Anna 1 and Anna 2. Lotte (1) was the talking half, and would order around Allegra (2), the silent but dancing half. 1 would make 2 commit the sins, or set double standards. For instance, one famous picture of the ballet shows Lotte with an ice cream cone (a clever disguise for the microphone she sang into) pointing a finger at Allegra, who is on the floor pushing herself through a series of stretches and exercises under Lotte's rule. I'm sure there is much more information than what I have access to, but I'm sure that readers interested in this will enjoy gaining the extra knowledge on a rather hidden piece of work (it was never restaged since Allegra last performed it), whether they approve of the concept or not.
Thanks again for the useful website - CiCi Houston
Thank you, CiCi!
The Movies
There was a movie entitled "Se7en," starring Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt. You can read about it at IMDB.
Other Helps Toward Virtue and Peace
Description of Thomas More by Erasmus - St. Thomas More was a man of great virtue and integrated faith
Faith and Reason (Fides et Ratio) - "Know thyself"
On Spiritual Direction - How can I get help?
Lectio Divina - A way to get closer to God
Other Information About The Seven Deadly Sins
In art, a different set of seven virtues is set in opposition to The Seven Deadly Sins. These virtues did not correspond on a one-to-one basis, though, and the focus was on good art rather than spiritual instruction for combating specific vices. See "The Cardinal Virtues" and "The Theological Virtues," below.
Pointless Controversy
Originally, the advice, "Know Thyself", was attributed to the Greeks in a general sense. A reader complained that it was Socrates, not Plato that originated it, and that the author "should get an education before creating web pages." I researched this and found that Socrates wrote nothing, and that Plato attributes this saying to Socrates. So it was changed to:
Plato quotes Socrates as saying: "Know thyself."
As viewers of the movie, "The Matrix," know, this was inscribed at the Oracle at Delphi, a sacred place dating from the 9th century B.C. to the late 4th century A.D. Another reader pointed out that it was not Plato or Socrates. I don't know, but as many people have seen the movie, the text has been altered to the current form. Please don't write to make corrections about who said (or carved) it first. One way to avoid personal growth is to get caught up in the medium and neglect the message. It is a good saying; think about it, and question why people are more interested in the origins of good advice than in following it.
More Information from the Catholic Catechism
The Seven Deadly Sins FAQ #1 - What questions do we get?
Signs & Symbols in Christian Art, by George Ferguson, has a few notes on The Seven Deadly Sins. It sometimes omits details, but is otherwise a very useful book.
Other lists
There are also lists of virtues, not directly associated with particular vices: The Theological Virtues and The Cardinal (pivotal) Virtues. We don't have pages on them yet, but they are covered well in "Mere Christianity," by C.S. Lewis. These and other lists from the Church are described (briefly) below, or you can search.
The Theological Virtues: Faith, Hope and Charity
These are from 1 Corinthians 13:13
The Cardinal Virtues: Prudence, Justice, Temperance and Fortitude
These are from Wisdom 8:7
The Ten Commandments: With Ten Calls to Freedom
Go here for a different take on the Ten Commandments. It uses the Catholic list, but it can be adapted for other traditions.
The Evangelical Counsels: Poverty, Chastity and Obedience
From the Beatitudes and Philippians 2:8. The name means they are suggested by the Gospel, both the words and the example of Jesus.
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, and Fear of the Lord.
See also the Catechism, #1831. The term "Fear of the Lord" refers to an "awesome respect" not abject or servile fear.
The Fruits of the Holy Spirit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, and Faithfulness
These are from Galatians 5:22. The Church has a tradition of twelve also, which adds: Generosity, Gentleness, Modesty, Self-control, and Chastity (Catechism #1832)
The Spiritual Works of Mercy: Kindnesses to the spirits of others
http://www.ceeme.com/prayers/works.htm
The Corporal Works of Mercy: Kindnesses to the bodies of others
http://www.ceeme.com/prayers/crpwork.htm
The Precepts of the Church: Expectations of Catholics (it's another list, so I put it here)
http://www.cin.org/precept.html
Links to other sites: They aren't always pretty, but here they are:
http://www.le.ac.uk/arthistory/seedcorn/contents.html
http://www.le.ac.uk/arthistory/seedcorn/faq-sds.html
http://hometown.aol.com/MaryPulver/Sins.htm
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010601.html
http://www.thesevendeadlysins.org

I think this is it.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 11:21 am

God this topic has gotten alot deeper and thoughtful then the last time I came on. I agree that Dan and Emma do have good chemistry (unlike Emma and Rupert).

I also agree with noddwyd that Ron has to get over his jelousy (sp).

Grace Granger

July 28th, 2003, 11:34 am

:clappy: to FP for that great research. Glad to know I was of help, even if I though, as MEM pointed out to me, that Envy is one of the 7 Deadly Sins, not Jealousy. Oops! :p

You know what this also shows, that Ron has Pride:

Pride (1): Oposite:Humility
Description of Pride:
Seeing ourselves as we are and not comparing ourselves to others is humility. Pride and vanity are competitive. If someone else's pride really bothers you, you have a lot of pride.

How often do we see Ron wanting to be lavished in fine clothing? Ron's envy of Hermione's intelligence and Harry's fame and talent, is not only envy, but Pride. He is bothered by the way they deal with their attributes. For example, Harry does not go around bragging about his Quidditch wins, of how much Galleons he has, or that he is the Boy Who Lived. Ron would brag, and has bragged (obviously with the exception of Quidditch wins.) He's even changed stories to get more attention. I think he's bothered that they seem so sure of themselves ("self-realization.") They seem to be aware of their limitations, their needs and their wants and the differences between them.

eXistenZ

July 28th, 2003, 11:47 am

I am most certain Harry will fall in love with someone much older..... and I mean much older.
My guess would have to be Professor McGonagall as Harry obviously has taken a likeing in her.
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Harry always been attracted to Professor McGonagall and other extremely old "ladies"?

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 12:06 pm

I did recognise this too but I did post it meanly because nearly every sin fit to, sorry, Ron. I don't know why this jumps so out but its dos.

For example anger this one I know have both Harry and Ron. But I go now back to book 1 till 4 and there was it always Ron who wanted attack Malfoy and Hermione and Harry were holding him back.

Can I count Gluttony to that? Maybe. But as I read it I thought my, my its awule alot of in canon. Its scary, just scary.

Sarmi

July 28th, 2003, 12:06 pm

I think that the kind of chemistry that H/Hr have in the books is SIMILAR to the chemistry the two actors show on screen as the characters in that it's quiet and instinctive and has an element of physical closeness. In the books the H/Hr body language must play a part in convincing characters such as Molly, Krum, Cho, Colin, McGonagall that they are believable as a couple.

I completely agree.

Whenever I read the earlier books I feel like something is missing because Harry just doesn't notice everything, or JKR doesn't want us to see it. Body language plays a big part with people outside the Trio, body language does not lie.

I guess that's why I love the movies because you see the reactions that Harry doesn't see or are interrupted from seeing.

Sarmi

Ecthelion

July 28th, 2003, 12:09 pm

First of all FP, well done, that research must have taken quite some time!

You know what this also shows, that Ron has Pride:

Pride (1): Oposite:Humility
Description of Pride:
Seeing ourselves as we are and not comparing ourselves to others is humility. Pride and vanity are competitive. If someone else's pride really bothers you, you have a lot of pride.

How often do we see Ron wanting to be lavished in fine clothing? Ron's envy of Hermione's intelligence and Harry's fame and talent, is not only envy, but Pride. He is bothered by the way they deal with their attributes. For example, Harry does not go around bragging about his Quidditch wins, of how much Galleons he has, or that he is the Boy Who Lived. Ron would brag, and has bragged (obviously with the exception of Quidditch wins.) He's even changed stories to get more attention. I think he's bothered that they seem so sure of themselves ("self-realization.") They seem to be aware of their limitations, their needs and their wants and the differences between them.

Hmm....or arrogance. :rolleyes:

Arrogance
: a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims

And to clarify the definition:

Presumptuous: overstepping due bounds (as of propriety or courtesy) : taking liberties

I think in this case and others, Ron acts through superficial arrogance, not pride. Even though arrogance is a by-product of pride, it isn't one of the more pleaurable things that come out of people who have pride. Regardless, I'm not saying he doesn't have pride. Because, as you stated, he does. Why else would he have been mad at Draco for "Weasley is our King" and some of the other things he is being teased about?

haycheng

July 28th, 2003, 12:29 pm

Hi GilyAnn
I am still waiting for your reply. Can you give me a list of warm moment of H/R. My vision is clouded by Hawk's drug...

About the movie: I have only watched the first one but I forget most of it. it is only a good movie, not a great one. I think I am indifferent toward the movies as I have not bother to watch the second one. The two actors do look much older in the recently picture though.

How I look at pairing: First I expect harry would find someone as he is the main character. It would not complete the series if he did not IMHO. Second, I look for female character that seem important to him and who he get along well. I believe either Ginny or Hermione is possible. When I look at H/R though, I see more problems then what its worth.

Earendil

July 28th, 2003, 1:04 pm

Originally posted by GilyAnn
How does this show that they are not compatible? Because I hardly think that JKR was thinking Romance when writing this. In fact this part was supposed to be funny. Which BTW I did find it funny.

I thought it was funny too. I think alot of Ron and Hermione's fights are funny. Unfortunately, I don't think that this type of constant bickering over stupid things is a positive point for a stable romantic relationship. JKR was most likely not intending for this scene to remotely imply romance, but it does help to define and characterize the type of interactions that Ron and Hermione frequently have. The scene I quoted in my essay shows the way R/Hr "clash", even when they're not having a full-blown argument, and we all know that people "clash" when they have conflicting characteristics or opinions that contradict rather than complement.

First I'm shocked :wow: that you say that Hermione belittles Ron. I was beggining to loose hope that some H/Hr will say a word like that regarding Hermione. ;) But do explain to me who likes being humiliated? Hermione did this twice. First on the train and then in this time. Explain to me how is it that Ron is supposed to be delighted that Hermione can do a spell that she is humiliating him with it. I trully lost your point here.

No one likes being humiliated, including Ron--which is my point. Hermione has belittled Ron several occasions, whether she intends to be malicious or not, and we are all aware of Ron's insecurities. For Ron and Hermione to have a successful relationship: either Ron would have to learn to deal with Hermione's nose-rubbing intellectual superiority or Hermione would have to tone it down for his sake. Both would involve a significant changing and manipulation of character.

I would not expect Ron to be delighted that Hermione is humiliating him and inadvertently mocking his intelligence. The fact is that she has done this on more than one occasion, and I believe that Ron is consistently bothered by not only this, but the fact that Hermione is more intelligent than he is whether she rubs it in or not. I truly cannot picture Ron in a lasting relationship with a woman who constantly one-ups him on almost every level, especially since Ron has been down-trodden and overshadowed by his more remarkable siblings all his life. This is a very incongruous statement to make in literature: to have a character who has clearly lived in the shadow of his more talented peers end up in a relationship with a woman who will continue to overshadow him with her intelligence and domineering personality.

I’m lost here again. Perhaps I’m a bit slow today so do forgive me. Are you referring to no you are not. Again I lost you here so can you please be a bit more specific for little old me.

Sure. My point was that Ron and Hermione's argument does not only display the undivided attention and intense communication that shippers of this couple so frequently draw attention to; we also see some of Ron continuing to harbor animosity for Hermione after an argument with her--but not directly to her face. Now, I always hear that H/Hr cannot happen because Harry chooses to ignore Hermione's irritating habits rather than confront the issue with her face-to-face--yet Ron does so as well. I didn't list too many examples from the first two books, because they mostly appear in books 3-5, but I'll get to it in the next two installments of my essay. The main idea is that there is canonical evidence of Ron choosing to content himself with a sarcastic remark about Hermione and all her annoying behavior, though he will often say it out of Hermione's earshot rather than to her face. And there are few things that break trust in a relationship than finding out someone has been talking about you behind your back.

Your example brings me a point on how Hermione understands Ron better. Look on how she tells him that she doesn’t know what he expected. Like she knew that he was expecting not to get a howler. She knows he is embarrassed, she knows what he is feeling.

I'm afraid I'm the one who is a little lost now. Everyone and anyone could tell that Ron was embarassed; the kid was sinking down so far in his seat that only his scarlet red forehead was showing. It's a mortifying experience. How is it that Hermione is so in tune with Ron's feelings when it's obvious to anyone that the poor bloke is humiliated beyond words? If anything, it's Hermione's lack of sympathy and understanding for Ron's feelings that are displayed in this scene. She basically tells him that he should have expected it, because he deserved it. Ouch. That's not in the least bit understanding or sympathetic or compassionate.

The sentence runs, "I don't know what you were expecting, Ron, but you--"[/b]. A sentence like this implies in no uncertain terms that it was foolish of him not to expect such repercussions, and that he did deserve it, as clarified by Ron's interrupting statement of "Don't tell me I deserved it". If Hermione understood Ron so well, she would know that now is not a good time to give him a sanctimonious lecture, after he has been so clearly humiliated. Instead, she shows an utter lack of compassion and sympathy, and tells him he deserved it.

I don't think this has anything to do with romance. I think this is simply because Harry doesn’t beg.

Me either. I was making the assertion that it's only Ron who tries to mooch off Hermione's work, even though she has made it clear that she doesn't approve of allowing others to copy her. If this is applied to a romantic relationship between the two, can it be assumed that whenever Ron needs help or feels too lazy to do his own work, he'll rely on Hermione to pull him out? If so, what can Hermione rely on Ron for? There is nothing in canon to suggest that this dependence runs both ways. There is, however, plenty of evidence that indicates that Hermione only shows vulnerability when she is around Harry; that she only depends on him for comfort in tense situations. I believe that relationships should be symbiotic rather than parasitic, and so far the only dependence we have seen between Ron and Hermione is Ron's constant attempts to use Hermione as his cheat sheet.

Ron (and half of Howgarts) doesn’t like Lockheart. I don’t understand what the connection to love is between nobody liking Lockhart and Ron expressing it. I think he simply said what he though. If you have to watch out what you say and have caution about expressing your feelings in a relationship then there is something wrong.

I hope I didn't imply that everything in my essay was relating to love. Several of the examples and analyses that I listed were for the purpose of characterizing Ron and Hermione and their interactions with one another, rather than to dispute romantic feelings between them. The point about Lockhart was that Ron knew that Hermione would defend him, and it seemed that he was deliberately initiating an argument with her. Why intentionally start an argument over such a stupid thing as Lockhart? In a romantic relationship between them, would they always bring up topics for the sole purpose of baiting the other into a pointless argument?

Ok please all of you answer me if you ship H/Hr because of the books or because of how cute D/E look together and how obviously they seem to fit each other. Because if shippers here sail h/hr because of how cute Dan and Emma look there is no point on debating. I’m trully wasting my time. How many movies have we seen where the starts simply don’t have chemistry between each other. How many movies have we seen were we see a pair and say ‘Uhg I would have pair it up with this other girl.’ I don’t think that Dan and Emma’s chemistry is something that it’s part on what jkr writes the book. While you may all will tell me that the movie producers brought them up to bring up the ‘chemistry’ between Harry and Hermione in the books. This kids I believe were picked apart considering their talents not their chemistry. I don’t want to think that people here sail a ship because of chemistry between two actors. The though scares me!

It scares me too. Fortunately, none of the H/Hr shippers on this board are sailing solely because of Dan and Emma, and that is something that I'm sure of. We use only the actual text as canon in our arguments, and base our opinions and theories solely upon this canonical evidence, as shown in all of the posts from the Harmony on this thread. I personally don't give a flying Figg about the films or the chemistry between the actors or the screenwriting. I've noticed significant chemistry between Dan and Emma, and all I can say to this is that it'll help out if and when H/Hr happens in canon and is translated on the screen. Other than that, I couldn't care less about the way the actors portray the characters visually. The movies hold no significance in my eyes; they are merely an embellishment to the text with absolutely no bearing on my shipping opinions.

Awesome posts everyone, and back-slaps all around. Special thanks to Ecthelion, oSirus, sone, Turambar, and evaluna for your compliments on my post. BTW, FP, nice work on the Seven Deadly Sins research, it's an interesting read.

DumbledoreTheWise

July 28th, 2003, 1:12 pm

I must say that I think Ginny is just fascinated with Harry, considering how she reacted to him in Chamber, by running away when the Weasley boys brought Harry home. She has a crush on him maybe, but I would like to see her with Neville.

I actually see Harry and Hermione together, after all someone has to keep getting Harry out of trouble.

Keep Harry out of trouble? Why? Harry excells when "in trouble." It's part of the reason he would make such a good Auror. Harry is a big boy, he doesn't need somebody to keep him out of trouble, he needs someone to love him for who he is, Harry Potter- not the Boy Who Lived- and he needs to love that someone in return.
I am not a H/Hr shipper. Do I discredit their relationship? Absolutely not. They are very close. But I believe that that relationship is platonic. I also believe that Hermione and Ron like each other and I think the books prove this.
In my opinion, Hermione drops some very well hidden hints......hidden perhaps to Harry and Ron. Not hidden to me, because, as a girl, I have used them before.
1) When Hermione tells Ron to "Ask her first, and not as a last resort...." at the next Ball, she wouldn't have said that if she intended on turning him down. When you tell a guy somthing like that in my experience, you're dropping them hints.
2) "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have!" <<<that is a total girl way of dropping a hint. it's the equivalent of "Why don't you get that I like you, how thick can you be?You don't understand feelings, otherwise you would have picked up by now!"
3) When talking to Harry about Cho, Hermione says "You're just as bad as Ron.....well-okay..no you're not." What was that all about? Who has Ron been thick with that's a girl? *cough*Hermione*cough*YuleBall*cough* Harry is a little less thick than Ron. this we already know.
4) Hermoine gets livid when Ron says he will only go with a pretty girl, and goes to bed she is so upset. Then she is cold when Ron "realizes" she's a girl. "Just because it has taken YOU three years to notice..." That is a complete and total girl hint.
5) Hermione gets extremely angry at the mention of Fleur, and freaks when she kisses Ron on the cheek.
6) in Book three, not speaking to Ron often brought her to tears.

Ron gets jealous faster than the speed of light when Hermione mentions Krum.
Examples:
-Ron calling Viktor 'Vicky' and completely over reacting at the Yule Ball. He didn't even dance! According to the book, Parvati and Padma are the most attractive girls in the year. Harry didn't dance with Padma too much and fumed about Cho and Cedric. Ron didn't even get up and kept his eyes glued to Hermione and Krum. Hmmmm, I wonder why he was so pissed that night....
-he NEVER let Vicky drop.
- he watched Hermione and Krum go talk by the carraiges, suspicious of their activity.
- he flipped when Hermione said she had been invited to Bulgaria.
- he was completely in another world in book five after Hermione kissed him on the cheek. harry even noticed this, and used this as a time to think about his father without Ron noticing.
- From Book Five: "Viktor always said-" Ron looked around at her so fast he appeared to crick his neck; rubbing it, he said," Yeah? What did Vicky say?"....Ron was looking at Hermione suspiciously. "You're still in contact with him are you?" "So what if I am?" said Hermione cooly, though her face was a little pink. "I can have a pen pal if I-" "He didn't only want to be your penpal, " said Ron accusingly."
Why did Hermione go pink? Why does Ron care if Vicky wants Hermione as more than a penpal? Harry never flinches at the mention of Krum, or even gives the slightest appearence of intimidation. Because he doesn't like Hermione. Ron does. Even after the converstation above, he remains suspicious.
-later in the book "Who're you writing the novel to anyway?" Ron asked Hermione, trying to read the bit of parchment now trailing onto the florr,. Hermione hitched it up out of sight. "Viktor." "Krum?" "How many other Viktor's do we know?" Ron said nothing, but looked disgruntled. They sat in silence for another twenty minutes, Ron finishing his essay with many snorts of impatience and crossings-out."
- When talking abotu Cho's wet kiss. "Are you that bad at kissing?" "Dunno,
said harry, who hadn't cnsidered this, and immediatly felt rather worried."Maybe I am." "Of course you're not," said hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. "How do you know?" said Ron in a sharp voice.

There are many other examples.
In mythology, Hermione gets together with a man called Leontes, who is easily jealous and extremely protective over Hermione when it comes to other men. Can you say Ron?

Jo Rowling has indded confirmed Ron and Hermione. While some say she doesn't give away the plot, she has never lied. In all her red-herrings and confusing sub-plots, she has never once lied. She says that Dumbledore speaks for her ideals,. in book one he says to Harry
" I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you to forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie."
In JKR's interview she often hinted at hermione and Ron. In a recent interview with Katie Couric, she said so outright.
KC: Are we going to see any Harry/Hermione kissing and such?
JKR: Harry and Hermione? You really htink so? No. More like Ron and Hermione.

I do not believe that JKR lies outright, especially to children. She is very adamant about telling children the truth. it's not simple hints anymore. She's saying it directly. And I don't care how good with surprises she is, from what I've seen, it would be against her beliefs to decieve kids knowingly like that.

snitch14

July 28th, 2003, 1:19 pm

Yea, i found some things that made me wonder...

"I saw Cho earlier," said Hermione tentatively, "and she looked really miserable too...Have you two had a row again?"
"Wha -- oh yeah, we have," said Harry, seizing gratefully on the excuse.
"What about?"
"That sneak friend of hers, Marietta," said Harry.

Well, let's look back at the arguement, shall we?

"Well...we all got away, didn't we?" said Cho pleadingly. "you know, her mum works for the Ministry, it's really difficult for her --"
"Ron's dad works for the Ministry too!" Harry said furiously. "And in case you hadn't noticed, he hasn't got 'sneak' written across his face --"
"That was a really horrible trick of Hermione Granger's," said Cho fiercly. "She should have told us she'd jinxed that list --"
"I think it was a brilliant idea," said Harry coldly. Cho flushed and her eyes grew brighter.
"Oh yes, I forgot -- of course, if it was darling Hermione's idea --"
"Don't start crying again," said Harry warningly.
"I wasn't going to!" she shouted.
"Yeah...well...good." he said. "I've got enough to cope with at the moment."
"Go and cope with it then!" she said furiously, turning on her heel and stalking off.

Yea, Harry said that the whole arguement was about Marietta, but it just started it, Hermione was dragged in and it all made things worse, for some reason Harry didn't mention Hermione being in it. And Hermione always wanted to know what was happening with Cho and Harry, Ron wasn't so interested...

sone

July 28th, 2003, 1:32 pm

Hermione always said what Harry should of done with Cho, not what he should do. I don't think she was too interested in seeing them make up at all.

I can always say that this is not interesting, but I still cannot get pass the scene when they first meet Grawp. Hermione shaking and wimpering in Harry's arms not only is the farthest thing from platonic but wouldn't in anyway be taken as platonic if Cho or Ron saw.

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 1:48 pm

Sorry as a girl I don't think this are hidden hints for Ron. Because everytime I read this I don't get this feeling she mean it that way for that Hermione sound simply to agressive, to angry well to disrespectful. If a girl do such hidden hints than its sarcastical or ironic with a smirk but not brisk and snappish. For me dos that what she said exactly say that what she mean or better that what she think.
First this last resort thing. Its like the old jesus speach where he said "you shall love your enemy like yourself" Well you don't have to love only your enemy the most important part is you should love yourself. See the last part is the important one. Exactly like this last resort. This sentence is written that the important part come at last. Its say cleary Not as last resort. In english dos this say don't treat me like this one more or you will surely be sorry for this.

"Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have!"
Thats right this one is for the Yule Ball but not like you mean positive its badly negative. Its says that she still think on Ron yelling season and still isn't happy about it if I may say its much more like a issuse what you rube everytime if necessary under the nose how bad your behaviour was. For short you say that if you remind someone on the badest moment in his live or in her live. I dare to say this was a bad moment for Hermione.

snitch14

July 28th, 2003, 1:55 pm

I can always say that this is not interesting, but I still cannot get pass the scene when they first meet Grawp. Hermione shaking and wimpering in Harry's arms not only is the farthest thing from platonic but wouldn't in anyway be taken as platonic if Cho or Ron saw.

it isn't platonic? hmm... i wonder what would happen if it was ron...

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 2:03 pm

DDtheWise, I don't agree but still, a well-presented post. There are many things in your post to discuss, but I'll take just one for now.

Original post by Dumbledore the Wise
There are many other examples.
In mythology, Hermione gets together with a man called Leontes, who is easily jealous and extremely
protective over Hermione when it comes to other men. Can you say Ron?

Again I think we may be missing something here if we think that Hermione's relationship to her namesake in a Winter's Tale is based on Ron being symbolically akin to Leontes. What I mean is, I think that Hermione's relationship to her namesake can stand on its own. So if everything is a direct analogy, are we condemning poor Hermione to a lengthy exile and a slandered reputation backed by the ruling authority [if she were to go with Ron], until such time as Leontes [if he=Ron] was finally convinced to see the light of her innocence? And what good thing, I ask you, could this possibly say about Ron? In fact a comparison like this seems like a red flag for Hr/R, that Hermione would suffer needlessly with Ron. I think the parallel holds most directly for Hermione and Hermione alone, in that she stood up to the highest authority in the land [and her husband, moreover] and risked everything, everything, for truth and honour, for justice, for those most vulnerable and who were dependent on her [symbolised by her child Perdita], and for defense of her character. I think that this is what JKR might have seen as most relevent in Hermione's Shakespearean precedent. IMO. Perdita, more to add?
Cheers!

FP, Earendil: brilliant stuff! & everyone else on board, great posts as well!

sone

July 28th, 2003, 2:04 pm

Hermione shaking and wimpering in Harry's arms? No, that is not platonic to me. It speaks of something deeper in my opinion, especially with how comfortably they did it. Nor would it be to Ron or Cho. That is what I meant or were you asking something different?

snitch14

July 28th, 2003, 2:15 pm

no, i asked somethin like that. i mean, hermione always seems to comfortable to throw her arms around him of grab his arm, much more than with ron, she never actually grabbed his arm, and hugged him, what, two times?

MoF

July 28th, 2003, 2:18 pm

1) When Hermione tells Ron to "Ask her first, and not as a last resort...." at the next Ball, she wouldn't have said that if she intended on turning him down. When you tell a guy somthing like that in my experience, you're dropping them hints.

You could see this as Hermione encouraging Ron, but any girl I know would be absolutely furious over Rons behaviour. I don't think this is some roundabout way of aksing Ron out, but she tells him that she doesn't like to be s last resort. A girl might say this even if there is no romantic feelings involved.

2) "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have!" <<<that is a total girl way of dropping a hint. it's the equivalent of "Why don't you get that I like you, how thick can you be?You don't understand feelings, otherwise you would have picked up by now!"

I totally fail to see why this is Hermione's way of saying she likes him.
All I can say is that this was a negative comment, after Ron had shown an inability to understand the way Cho was feeling.

3) When talking to Harry about Cho, Hermione says "You're just as bad as Ron.....well-okay..no you're not." What was that all about? Who has Ron been thick with that's a girl? *cough*Hermione*cough*YuleBall*cough* Harry is a little less thick than Ron. this we already know

Or maybe she is frustrated that Ron fails to see that she hasn't encouraged him in any way, that he fails to see she just wants to be friends. Also, remember that this is a short while after Ron had proved that he doesn't understand why Cho feels the way she does. Ron is worse to understand this than Harry. Or at least Harry doesn't make rude comments showing that he doesn't understand these Girls feelings.

4) Hermoine gets livid when Ron says he will only go with a pretty girl, and goes to bed she is so upset. Then she is cold when Ron "realizes" she's a girl. "Just because it has taken YOU three years to notice..." That is a complete and total girl hint.

I could copy my reple to point no. 1.

5) Hermione gets extremely angry at the mention of Fleur, and freaks when she kisses Ron on the cheek.

She was angry with Fleur the moment she stepped inside Hogwarts, beacuse Fleur made rude comments about the shool. Also, when she kissed Ron, she also kissed Harry, so we can't really say why she was furious, beacuse Fleur kissed them both.

6) in Book three, not speaking to Ron often brought her to tears.

I can't remeber this, you may be right. But Harry often brought her on the verge of tears when arguing with her in OotP. Harry did this a lot.

On jealousy, we are all aware that Ron has some sort of crush on Hermione. You may also want to peek at FlyingPhoenix' remarkable post on jealousy. We still need to see evidence of Hermione's feelings for Ron.

Also, we have discussed JKR's quotes before. And I don't think she said directly thar R/Hr was going to happen. I have never seen JKR giving hints as to what was going to happen in future books. She has given us little pieces of hints that doesn't really tell anything about the plots in future books.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 2:39 pm

You can't just say "I'm a girl" so I know that these actually mean this. I'm not knocking your post but what you should of posted was "I'm a R/H shipper and here is what I think are hints of their relationship". I'm a boy but I don't claim to be able to de-code Malfoy's remarks to show that he has feelings for Hermione. Also I don't think J.K. would say that if she meant it. What's next?

Interviewer: Any death's in book 7?

J.K.: Yes, Harry dies.

J.K. has never given big hints away like that. She may of said Dumbledore represents her views in the book but you can't just pick any of DD's lines and say that is J.K.'s beliefs. When she said that I don't think she meant that DD was her.

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 2:47 pm

Ah, Earendil you killing me with your new sig?!

They waiting? Wait till I'm insane I guess

sone

July 28th, 2003, 2:58 pm

For me, Hermione grabbing and clinging on to Harry so often in dangerous situations is important because it tells you who Hermione feels safest with and who she feels will protect her. Whether she is in Ron's presence or not, she does this. It is also partly explains the underlying problem with both of their relationships with Viktor and Cho.

snitch14

July 28th, 2003, 3:00 pm

Young_Prodigy

July 28th, 2003, 3:12 pm

The H/G relationship will develop more in 6 i think. There are a lot of suttle hints and small glances and conversations between the two. And since Ginny character developed more in OoTp, so look out for this one

AvadaKedavra

July 28th, 2003, 3:15 pm

*groan

I refuse to respond to any movie related stuff, I am a purely canonical person, and my opinions so far have been built up by my perception of the evidence shown in canon, and my personal identification with it.

As Earendil brilliantly said, I don't give a flying figg about the movies. To me, the movies are insulting to the books, unlike LOTR, but that's another story.

Haycheng

I think Gily Ann is not a hard core shipper of R/Hr, she is mainly a H/G shipper and she merely comments on what she feels is obvious. I however, am more than happy to help her out here. Here is evidence of Hermione caring towards Ron in Ootp, as you requested.

Hermione’s caring attitude

Hermione, after Ron had achieved his position on the Quidditch team as a keeper

"How was practice?" asked Hermione rather coolly half an hour later, as Harry and Ron climbed through the portrait hole into the Gryffindor common room.

"It was--" Harry began.

"Completely lousy," said Ron in a hollow voice, sinking into a chair beside Hermione. She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt."

WOW- one of the best R/Hr moments in the whole series. Look at the quote- it’s like something out of a romantic novel, you can’t deny that.

Right before the kiss on the cheek, she pulls Harry aside to tell him not to let Ron see the Slytherins’ badges.

Hermione got up, too, and taking Harry’s arm she drew him to one side.

“Don’t let Ron see what’s on those Slytherins’ badges” she whispered urgently.

This shows an exceptional caring attitude from Hermione that we hadn’t seen previously towards Ron. And then she kisses him. I think she knows what kind of effect the kiss would have on him given her partial knowledge of his feelings- giving him confidence for the match. I know this doesn’t really have any romantic connotations but it is a lovely moment of caring from Hermione towards Ron.

This could be interpreted as a sign of encouragement from Hermione. If Ron’s feelings are significant, and that Hermione knows some of them, then why is Hermione kissing him? A gesture this affectionate is bound to give some encouragement to Ron, which if he makes a move, will make things more awkward if Hermione really doesn’t have any feelings for him. If she doesn’t want to encourage him, then she doesn’t have to kiss him.

Hermione explaining to Ron why she missed his moment of glory

"Well - no," said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand toward him. "But Ron, we didn't want to leave - we had to!"

Hermione reaches out to Ron, in an attempt to make him feel better. I don’t know, but this type of “reaching out” wasn’t present in previous books, or if it was, it was done more clinically- this somehow feels more emotional/passionate.

Hermione offering to do Ron’s essay after he’s received a particularly nasty letter from Percy

Hermione was looking at Ron with an odd expression on her face.

“Oh, give them here,” she said abruptly.

“What?” said Ron.

“Give them to me, I’ll look through them and correct them,” she said.

“Are you serious? Ah, Hermione, you’re a life-saver,” said Ron, “what can I -?”

“What you can say is, ‘We promise we’ll never leave our homework this late again’,” she said, holding out both hands for their essays, but she looked slightly amused all the same.

I love this part; this is up there alongside the “melt” part. It shows Hermione’s compassion, her realisation that everything is not easy for Ron as it seems.

Hermione does care for Ron, and she shows it more and more than she does in the previous books. I’m not saying that this is a surefire clue to R/Hr, just that it’s a growing appreciation of Ron as a human being, which to tell the truth, wasn’t there a lot previously.

Hermione shows her affection and care for Ron, which is interesting alongside the outright bickering we had in the previous books.

But in OOTP, their relationship is split into two-

1. Continued bickering (I have explained why earlier countless of times)

AND

2. A more sensitive and caring side

In previous books situation (1) was dominant. But in OOTP (1) becomes less, and (2) becomes more.

To me, this indicates a frustrated Hermione attempting to find that confirmation of Ron's feelings that she so desperately wants by coaxing Ron out of his protective shell.

It's ironic- Hermione wants Ron to confirm his feelings so that she can feel more open to respond, her fear of rejection gone. But Ron is clueless, so Hermione's attempts go unnoticed, frustrating Hermione MORE.

Sorry you all for re posting *some* material but Haycheng did ask for it.

Ho-Ho

Avada

Sirius83

July 28th, 2003, 3:15 pm

Interesting point about JKR never lying in her interviews. We didn't see the Ford Anglia or Aragog return in book 5 after all, did we? We also did indeed see Lockhart again, and OOTP turned out to be much longer than GOF, not shorter at all.

The fact that JKR seems to be pushing R/Hr in her interviews without actually condemning H/Hr is very telling to me. That smells awfully of red herring. She has neither confirmed nor denied either relationship, only suggested R/Hr - while never actually condemning H/Hr. Keep that in mind. JKR has also said she would hate for people to guess her plot too accurately. Additionally, her interviews have not matched with the cannon before. The interviews only go so far, really. At the end of the day we should be looking at what is written in the books, not what is said in an interview. Basing it all on interviews is a recipe for disaster. I mean otherwise, i may as well stop reading now because we already know what's coming.

EDIT: But Avada, JKR helps in the screenwriting. She never lets Kloves do something that contradicts a future plotline. Surely then all those H/Hr moments carry some weight? The movies are "JKR Certified" if you want to put it that way. She has also said she is very pleased with how the actors come across on the screen, so surely she is pleased with how the Dan/Emma chemistry translates into Harry/Hermione? Normally i wouldn't take the movies for cannon either, but the fact is JKR has a role in the screenwriting.

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Now a little question about R/Hr. I know I have it with this pairing but its really an interest question.

Some of you say Hermione is mothering Harry, right? If R/Hr come together don't you think this might be a problem for Ron?
I mean this can look fast different and I think Ron is already suspicious about those two. I tell you why I think this.

Just imagine you are Ron and you do like Hermione more as a friend but you aren't aware of it that say you act like a normal friend.
You are since two weeks at the PHQ together with Hermione all what you do is to clean up the house and if you don't clean the house you hear from Hermione how worry she is about Harry. She tells you that she know he might do something stupid if he is left in the dark. Yeah she is even argue if she should just sent a letter with all ecplainations to Harry but Dumbledore don't want it. Than you get that Harry was attacked by dementors and going to expell. Hermione off course runs in circles search in every book she can find if they can expell Harry. She even tell you the whole thing what she did found and what this means to Harry. After two weeks you slowly but surely tired of this though youself are worried but you know he will get out of it. Did I mention that Hermione feels guilty because she know Harry might be furious at you and that she mention this everytime she see Hedwig which did hurt both of you!
Well, you sighs heavyly out as you see Harry there and is in the deadly hug of Hermione. Off course all things she did say ro make you insane she say it again only much faster but still very long and all the time she hugs your best friend.
After Harrys outurst is everything fine. Till the day as Harry has his hearing. Again Hermione runs in circles she can't even talk much just because she is so worry. Till Harry comes back and says he is off. Well, you expect she would hug him again but nope she sit only there is shaking something you has never seen before.

Some days later you get the hogwarts-letter and in it is written you are the new prefect. Hermione is off course a prefect too. So its don't waste long till she is in your room but don't look at you with a bright face she looks at Harry. She thinks Harry is prefect and she is really happy about it. Harry tells her in a very strange if not heartly way he isn't the one thats you the one. You think how amazing fast her smile can vanish and how fast her whole face looks rather badly shocked. She is speachless though she ask if you sure. Man now you are a little bit mad. Off course you sure on this bloody letter is your name and not Harry Potter for heaven sake. She is embrassed by that and know very well she did hit a nerv.
If you didn't get there suspicious than you was it after this fifth year where she did contine where she stoped as Harry did turn up in the PHQ. Harry is always her topic even if he isn't in the room and she even say to you look after him or tell him this from me and you do it because you are the nice guy, the best friend of her.

Buckbeak

July 28th, 2003, 3:32 pm

*groan
Here is evidence of Hermione caring towards Ron in Ootp, as you requested.
Hermione’s caring attitude
Hermione, after Ron had achieved his position on the Quidditch team as a keeper
"How was practice?" asked Hermione rather coolly half an hour later, as Harry and Ron climbed through the portrait hole into the Gryffindor common room.
"It was--" Harry began.
"Completely lousy," said Ron in a hollow voice, sinking into a chair beside Hermione. She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt."
WOW- one of the best R/Hr moments in the whole series. Look at the quote- it’s like something out of a romantic novel, you can’t deny that.
Right before the kiss on the cheek, she pulls Harry aside to tell him not to let Ron see the Slytherins’ badges.
Hermione got up, too, and taking Harry’s arm she drew him to one side.
“Don’t let Ron see what’s on those Slytherins’ badges” she whispered urgently.
This shows an exceptional caring attitude from Hermione that we hadn’t seen previously towards Ron. And then she kisses him. I think she knows what kind of effect the kiss would have on him given her partial knowledge of his feelings- giving him confidence for the match. I know this doesn’t really have any romantic connotations but it is a lovely moment of caring from Hermione towards Ron.
This could be interpreted as a sign of encouragement from Hermione. If Ron’s feelings are significant, and that Hermione knows some of them, then why is Hermione kissing him? A gesture this affectionate is bound to give some encouragement to Ron, which if he makes a move, will make things more awkward if Hermione really doesn’t have any feelings for him. If she doesn’t want to encourage him, then she doesn’t have to kiss him.
Hermione explaining to Ron why she missed his moment of glory
"Well - no," said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand toward him. "But Ron, we didn't want to leave - we had to!"
Hermione reaches out to Ron, in an attempt to make him feel better. I don’t know, but this type of “reaching out” wasn’t present in previous books, or if it was, it was done more clinically- this somehow feels more emotional/passionate.
Hermione offering to do Ron’s essay after he’s received a particularly nasty letter from Percy
Hermione was looking at Ron with an odd expression on her face.
“Oh, give them here,” she said abruptly.
“What?” said Ron.
“Give them to me, I’ll look through them and correct them,” she said.
“Are you serious? Ah, Hermione, you’re a life-saver,” said Ron, “what can I -?”
“What you can say is, ‘We promise we’ll never leave our homework this late again’,” she said, holding out both hands for their essays, but she looked slightly amused all the same.
I love this part; this is up there alongside the “melt” part. It shows Hermione’s compassion, her realisation that everything is not easy for Ron as it seems.
Hermione does care for Ron, and she shows it more and more than she does in the previous books. I’m not saying that this is a surefire clue to R/Hr, just that it’s a growing appreciation of Ron as a human being, which to tell the truth, wasn’t there a lot previously.
Hermione shows her affection and care for Ron, which is interesting alongside the outright bickering we had in the previous books.
But in OOTP, their relationship is split into two-
1. Continued bickering (I have explained why earlier countless of times)
AND
2. A more sensitive and caring side
In previous books situation (1) was dominant. But in OOTP (1) becomes less, and (2) becomes more.
To me, this indicates a frustrated Hermione attempting to find that confirmation of Ron's feelings that she so desperately wants by coaxing Ron out of his protective shell.
It's ironic- Hermione wants Ron to confirm his feelings so that she can feel more open to respond, her fear of rejection gone. But Ron is clueless, so Hermione's attempts go unnoticed, frustrating Hermione MORE.

Woah! thats a big post some im going to have to squash it together. so sorry Avada. :scared:

Well on to the point, there are those few examples that show Hermione cares for Ron, but there are hundreds more to show that she cares for Harry, which are just the same as the ones you posted above and better. i haven't got the book with me so i can't really quote on anything, but it doesn't matter cause the quotes are probably already swimming around the board, having been previously picked up by fellow H/Hr shippers. no evence btw just thought id say something on the matter.
:tu: great posts guys :tu: i hope one day i can think clearly enough so i can come up with a post about a mile long too.

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 3:46 pm

Sirius, agree 100% about the red herrings, movie, actors, and JKR's hand in all.
Avada, whilst clearly that the movies are not the canon source, I agree, they are nonetheless not only "blessed" by JKR but also have no doubt inspired many to pick up the books and join in the magic, so they should be given their just due in that regard. Also the movies are different media and thus should nearly always be viewed as additive or complementary rather than equivalent, IMO. Even LOTR...
FP, really well put. Good analysis from Ron's POV. I feel some real sympathy for Ron after reading your post. I hope that Ron is actually getting this much of a clue regarding Hermione's lack of interest, since that would indicate a higher level of maturity for Ron [reality is always more difficult to accept than fantasy] and would free him to find someone else who could return his affections.

Grace Granger

July 28th, 2003, 3:50 pm

My friend, Shailyn aka Shai, and I had our first official SHIPping talk. She never gets involved in those types of discussion. She's admitted to thinking that Ron and Hermione will get together, but she's not an avid fanatic of SHIPping they way we are. Let me get to the point here:

<Conversation starts off about Lust of teh 7 Deadly Sins:>
Grace: well there are quite a few people who think ron's "attraction" is physical
Grace: one particularly thinks he doesn't see anything beyond the brains which helps him out with his work
Shai: that true though, b/c all Ron ever asks is "do you think she'll let us see her essay?" or "do you think she'll review this for us"
Grace: yep yep
Shai: but he didn't start to like her until Victor took a liking to her
Shai: so I think it's a case of wanting what you can't have

<Then we get off topic, but I proceed to show her Earendil's reply to Gily's post, the one starting with Me neither.... >

Shai: that's true
Shai: but I think there's an interesting dynamic between them
Grace: which is?
Shai: Ron is jealous of eveyone that hermione hangs out with except for Harry
Shai: maybe in the next book, he'll even be jealous of them
Grace: he sort of already is
Shai: is there any evidence that Harry told Ron about their kiss?
Shai: maybe that'll come out in the next book too
Grace: i believe ron was there when hermione kissd harry
Shai: really?
Shai: I don't remember
Shai: but if so, maybe he's jealous b/c he wants her to go out with Harry
Grace: yeah b/c afterwards fred and george clapped harry on the back adn said soemthing, so they had to have been there
Shai: "his best friend's girl" and what not
Grace: he's being defensive for harry?
Shai: yeah
Grace: i've thought of that
Shai: maybe
Shai: b/c he doesn't show any signs of wanting to date her...
Grace: no he doesn't
Grace: he jsut gets upset when krum is brought up
<snip>
Shai: he doesn' t even want to be alone with her most of the tine
Grace: what gives you that impression?
Shai: b/c he's always complaining about her
Grace: but in book 5 they seem to hang out together "offstage" b/c ron has mentioned to harry a couple of their conversations, which of course is about harry himself
Shai: yeah
Shai: but it's more b/c of Harry's little fits
Shai: and out of concern for him
Shai: not b/c they're getting together
<snip>
Grace: oh btw, do you see any signs of Hermione like Ron at all in book 5?
Shai: I didn't see any signs of Hermione liking Ron

EDIT:Shai's Disclaimer
Hey HP discussion board people,

I'm not a SHIPper but I think that Ron and Hermione have an interesting dynamic in that Ron is jealous of everyone that Hermione hangs out with except for Harry. And Ron only started acting jealous of Hermione after Krum took an interest in her. But all in all, I don't see Ron acting as though he were interested in taking Hermione out or anthing like that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I'm leaning towards Ron and Hermione (I think that it'll be VERY interesting), I'm not getting a lot of comforting signals from JKK so far in HP5.

Shai

sone

July 28th, 2003, 3:50 pm

FP, excellent post. It is going to be a problem not only for Ron but for anybody else. Anyway Snitch14, Ron has not had a relationship of his own yet. Harry and Hermione have only to have those people end up being jealous of the other. Viktor of Harry, Cho of Hermione. "Hermione talks about very often." "You can talk to Hermione Granger, but you can't talk to me." Ron and Ginny have both liked Hermione and Harry. Ginny was the first to go, giving up on Harry though she may be lying. Ron has not.....yet anyway.

SeniorFishy

July 28th, 2003, 3:59 pm

I agree that the movies can't be taken as canon however they are the closest things to the real deal that we have. Steven Kloves probably knows more about the books then anyone else (except JKR and her editors of course). Since it might be a while for the next books to come out we have a chance to take an extra look through the movies. There are things there that we might have overlooked or even things that weren't there. JKR has mentioned that she does work with Kloves and preety much puts the stamp of approval on all the things.

Now towards the film picture from newsweek: It obviously doesn't hurt the H/Hr ship. I would very well add that it does appear to show that something is going on between the two. Well atleast to someone who hasn't read the books. However, judging from Harry's past actions we can downplay this scene a lot.

Consider the first time Harry saves Hermione's life. I am talking about the Troll scene in PS/SS. In that scene Harry decides to go out of his way to make sure Hermione was all right. This is of course before Harry and Ron knew Hermione. This is definately before they were friends and definately before any feelings were present between them. So considering Harry has no romantic or friendly feelings for Hermione, he risks his life and tries to save Hermione from the mountain troll. Harry tries to grab Hermione and get her out of there however she doesn't move.

So Harry clutching Hermione in that picture from the film doesn't neccesarily mean that there is something going on. However it certainly doesn't hurt.

FlyingPhoenix

July 28th, 2003, 4:12 pm

See thats all what I want that Ron get a girl who really really likes him and only him and not always speaks about Harry. Do you have any idea how much that can hurt if you are together with someone who is always or nearly the most time worring about your best friend? This is surely not what Ron deserve. I can't even imagine why people want this for him. See there you see that I really like Ron and that all what I want a girl who like him. I think Luna could be this girl. She is amazing enough. So why not?

haycheng

July 28th, 2003, 4:16 pm

Thank You AK
Well, I am kind of disappointed as those are nothing new. However, I will read them through and think about it.

EDIT: read it and it does not change my opinion much. Still bickering too much between them. hermione is generally very warm toward anyone anyways(very warm to Hagrid, lupid(never report him), etc). The kiss is the only interesting and debatable evident, ever that it is weak.

PS: Just as FP mention. If hermione is considering Harry is her "child" or "brother", do yo think Ron can stand it for long. Every couple should put the other half before anyone else.

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 4:18 pm

Original post by Flying Phoenix
See thats all what I want that Ron get a girl who really really likes him and only him and not always speaks about Harry. Do you have any idea how much that can hurt if you are together with someone who is always or nearly the most time worring about your best friend? This is surely not what Ron deserve. I can't even imagine why people want this for him. See there you see that I really like Ron and that all what I want a girl who like him. I think Luna could be this girl. She is amazing enough. So why not?

FP: EXACTLY! :)

viktorija_hp

July 28th, 2003, 4:22 pm

i don't know. i thought thet hermione and ron will be together, but ofter reading OOTP i'm confused. it doesen't seem likley to me and the reason is cho. every time she and harry had fight it had something to do with hermione... and also someone mentioned that krum was jelous on harry... and that rita's writings in 4th book...
it looks like everybody around them sees something they don't see!!!

sorry about my english, i'm fro non-english spoken country

AvadaKedavra

July 28th, 2003, 4:28 pm

Yeah, I know all of that JKR/Steve Kloves stuff- I do watch the extra stuff on the CoS dvd, not just the film :p

What about the non-hug? There's just one example as possible R/Hr evidence. I'm not going to incorporate this in my R/Hr argument because I refuse to use movies as evidence. Full stop.

Now, if Harry and Hermione seem to hit it off through the POA film, according to Sirius83's theory of red herrings, wouldn't that seem TOO OBVIOUS?

Wouldn't that signal the end of debating and speculation? Maybe JKR realises that she's being a little too obvious with R/Hr, and rectifies her mistake by covering it up with the H/Hr red herring? It works both ways, my friends, and forgive me if I choose to refuse all movie indicators even if they HYPE the Buckbeak scene up hugely in POA.

(you know- all the slow mo, romantic music etc) :p

Signing out

Avada

EDIT:

Sorry but if it's the one boy who can UNDERSTAND and not mind if Hermione talks about Harry, it's Ron. So don't ship him off with Luna because it's appropriate, and btw, I don't ship H/G. Plus, Luna could simply be something called a "red herring" :p

I don't ship anyone else but R/Hr.

haycheng

July 28th, 2003, 4:33 pm

I did not watch the second movie(is it when they hug?) About being too obvious. When is the movie coming out? And when is the book coming out? If the book is earlier than the movie, then it wont be matter, right? I do not believe the movie can stop us from having fun anyways.

PS: I do not ship anything anyways, AK . I just anti-R/Hr. :rotfl: :elaugh: :lol: :elaugh: :rotfl:

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 4:34 pm

AvadaKedavra as someone has already said all those qoutes you used to show Hermione's feelings for Ron could be found aswell for Hermione feelings for Harry. She kissed Ron in OOTP and kissed Harry in GOF. I could do the rest of the qoutes aswell. I agree 100% with what FP said.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 4:40 pm

In both movies their have been hints to H/Hr and R/Hr. I think those hints will carry on into PoA and will proberly become more obvious. Book 6 is when I think we will really will begin to see the final pairings. I think that J.K. will do the whole love triangle for a while before doing the final pair.

viktorija_hp

July 28th, 2003, 4:40 pm

i think we won't find out until 7th book, JKR won't let it out till the end. honestly, we have "hints" from the both sides:H/Hr and H/R.
only thing i don't want is love triangle but it seems very likely...

SeniorFishy

July 28th, 2003, 4:47 pm

AV: Judging by Ron's jealousy you believe that Ron wouldn't mind Hermione worrying about Harry so much? People get jealous of their friends all the time, sometimes it even breaks friendships. It is all possible that that might change in due time when Volde is of course dead, but as things stand right now, I don't think anyone could share a relationship with Hermione (other than H/Hr).

Will things change when Volde is dead? Will the worrying stop because people aren't trying to kill him? Or is Harry's death preety much required for Ron and Hermione to happen?

Earendil

July 28th, 2003, 4:54 pm

One of the main reasons why HP shipping is such a dodgy matter is because each ship comes with its own "unless"--i.e. "Such and such can't get together UNLESS this happens". I seriously don't think any potential ship can happen under the current canonical circumstances. However, I do think that the varying degrees of the "unless" contribute to the likelihood of certain ships.

For example:
**R/Hr can't happen unless Ron matures and learns how to approach his feelings delicately and with sensitivity.
**R/Hr can't happen unless Hermione learns to appreciate Ron (his accomplishments, his negative qualities, their friendship) more than Harry.
**H/G can't happen unless Harry starts to take more notice of Ginny.
**H/G can't happen unless Ginny replaces Hermione as the most important and trusted female in Harry's life.
**H/Hr can't happen unless--what? Harry and Hermione show more evidence of feelings for each other? The H/Hr ship has already pointed out such evidence, depending on personal interpretation, so this is a weak "unless". How about Ron gets over his feelings for Hermione? Well, Harry and Hermione can still have feelings for each other without acting on them and risking hurting Ron, so this is also weak. What's the big obstacle in terms of personal feelings in the H/Hr ship?

---------------
Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
To me, the movies are insulting to the books, unlike LOTR, but that's another story.

:wow: AK, we've officially agreed on something. *extends arm to the HMS Heron and shakes hands with AK* I will refrain from digressing on an anti-movie tangent, other than to say that every day I wake up and wish that Peter Jackson & WETA digital had been behind the HP films.

Grace, that's interesting. It just reinforces my belief that Ron and Hermione would not have a lasting and strong romantic relationship, because Hermione is devoted to Harry even more than she is to Ron. Whether this is platonic or not is irrelevant. Ron's need to be her top priority would never be fulfilled in a relationship between these two.

I agree with FP in that Ron needs a girl who will admire and respect him more than any other, and Luna has shown that she's sufficiently taken with Ronald at the moment. It's been consistently made clear that Hermione barely respects Ron as an equal, in the same manner that she respects Harry. (BTW, FP, those Teletubbies are cute, aren't they? :elaugh: No really, they're quite terrifying.)

tree guardian

July 28th, 2003, 5:29 pm

The chemistry between the actors and actresses is pointless to argue. If Emma and Daniel are getting on well, great, but it is the portrayal of Hermione and Harry that is important. That is the whole point of them acting is it not?

But back to stuff that is canon...

I am rereading GoF and a funny thought hit me, where were Ron's feelings for Hermione before the Yule Ball? Not that it is un-natural for feelings to dawn on folk, all the sudden, but I was just kind of wondering where they came from and what they are based on.

I mean, it seems that the feelings sprung from jealousy, of some sort. Ron barely gave Hermione a second thought up until the point Ginny said she had a date. Then all the sudden everything Hermione does is a big deal. But who knows. Everytime I read GoF I get the feeling like one minute there is no interest in Hermione from Ron then all the sudden Ron just can't get enough...........hmmmmmmmmm

:) Have a good one.
----------------------
Oh, and Earendil that is creepy beyond belief... :lol:

sone

July 28th, 2003, 5:30 pm

I agree Earendil. Hermione and Harry do not have to make this huge leap. They are already there. Between Harry getting over Cho and Hermione becoming more expressive of her feelings, the gap has closed considerably (though I believe Krum is still an issue). Of course, the majority believes that Ron and Ginny are next in line. Interesting considering how the last pair worked.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 5:35 pm

tree guardian what people are saying is because Dan and Emma have good chemistry it makes their on-screen performance more belivable.

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 5:42 pm

Sone, good point! ;) And what an interesting plot twist that would be -- diversionary yes but perhaps useful nonetheless? Harry and Hermione each going these easy route of dating someone who is crushing on them: [IF applicable to Ginny, which isn't clear, but anyway let's just say for purposes of theorising here...] first with Harry dating Ginny and Hermione dating Ron, next with incompatibilities emerging, and finally with the two of them, Harry and Hermione at last owning up to their own feelings for one another. Hmmm...has potential for building huge amounts of anticipation. And perhaps it would be necessary if they both still need to learn that even in the arena of one's personal lives, what's easy [just taking what's offered] is often not the same as what's right [giving of yourself, i.e., trust and honesty regarding one's own feelings].

Earendil, great post BTW.

Cheers!

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 5:49 pm

:tu: A big thank you to AvadaKedavra ! I completely agree on your post.

I don't think that this type of constant bickering over stupid things is a positive point for a stable romantic relationship. JKR was most likely not intending for this scene to remotely imply romance, but it does help to define and characterize the type of interactions that Ron and Hermione frequently have. The scene I quoted in my essay shows the way R/Hr "clash", even when they're not having a full-blown argument, and we all know that people "clash" when they have conflicting characteristics or opinions that contradict rather than complement.

Yes I see your point but my point is that this are 11 year old kids they are not going to marry. One thing that OoP brought was the less fighting of Ron and Hermione. Ron being able to control himself a lot better and Hermione being softer on Ron. Granted they still have some road to walk but it’s beginning to change. So as they grow up the relationship changes. Look on how in OoP Ron and Hermione are able to compromise on something and talk about Harry problems when his not around.

For Ron and Hermione to have a successful relationship: either Ron would have to learn to deal with Hermione's nose-rubbing intellectual superiority or Hermione would have to tone it down for his sake. Both would involve a significant changing and manipulation of character.
I would not expect Ron to be delighted that Hermione is humiliating him and inadvertently mocking his intelligence. The fact is that she has done this on more than one occasion, and I believe that Ron is consistently bothered by not only this, but the fact that Hermione is more intelligent than he is whether she rubs it in or not. I truly cannot picture Ron in a lasting relationship with a woman who constantly one-ups him on almost every level, especially since Ron has been down-trodden and overshadowed by his more remarkable siblings all his life. This is a very incongruous statement to make in literature: to have a character who has clearly lived in the shadow of his more talented peers end up in a relationship with a woman who will continue to overshadow him with her intelligence and domineering personality.

And this is beginning to change. In OoP Ron tells Hermione how he and Harry simply don’t have her superior skills (BTW I laughed ages at that part) how wonderful she is etc. At the end of GoF Ron has learn to deal with some of his issues the main fact that he goes to Hermione for help is what says to me that he thinks she is better. So as times has passed by I do believe that Ron has been learning to deal with her Hermione’s superior intellect. One of the reasons I find that R/Hr compliment each other is that while Hermione has the intellect Ron has the people skills together they can do wonders. In fact if Hermione would be able to enlist Ron in SPEW (which I believe that at some point he will end up helping her, because she’ll need his help.) they would be a total success.

Ok I see your point here. Do take in consideration that like avada says I’m not a R/Hr die hard fan. I just think this is the way are going. So I’m not that intense on what R/Hr shippers say. I think there is a difference. Harry has been failing to tell Hermione things that he thinks while Ron does tell her. Take SPEW for ex. Ron tells Hermione an opinion of the wizarding world, Hermione never listens to him (which I believe it was what started the whole thing). Harry on the other hand displays annoyance about the issue but still in OoP is hiding that from her. Ron confronts her with his opinion. He tries to get his point across, to make her listen something that it’s important. (Please do take in consideration that I don’t think that Ron is right. I just think that he doesn’t know anything else. He believes what other people have made him believe. Mrs. Weasley, Mr. Weasley and many others think the same way as Ron.)

Me either. I was making the assertion that it's only Ron who tries to mooch off Hermione's work, even though she has made it clear that she doesn't approve of allowing others to copy her. If this is applied to a romantic relationship between the two, can it be assumed that whenever Ron needs help or feels too lazy to do his own work, he'll rely on Hermione to pull him out?

It could also mean that Ron wants to do better and thinks that Hermione can’t be wrong. So he looks out for her approval and help.

If so, what can Hermione rely on Ron for?

Oh Ron can be in a lot of help. I think it will be soon time for Hermione to discover how Ron can help her. Again Hermione is brilliant but she lacks people skills. One of the reasons that I think that Dumbledore made a good choice on Hermione and Ron for prefect is that one one lacks the other one has plenty off.

I hope I didn't imply that everything in my essay was relating to love. Several of the examples and analyses that I listed were for the purpose of characterizing Ron and Hermione and their interactions with one another, rather than to dispute romantic feelings between them. The point about Lockhart was that Ron knew that Hermione would defend him, and it seemed that he was deliberately initiating an argument with her. Why intentionally start an argument over such a stupid thing as Lockhart? In a romantic relationship between them, would they always bring up topics for the sole purpose of baiting the other into a pointless argument?

Sorry but you linked it to a possible relationship so I was assuming you were. Yes but Hermione does that often also. She also picks up arguments with Ron when she knows that it bothers him.

BTW Earandil That signature! Creepy Euuu I hate teletubbies!

We didn't see the Ford Anglia or Aragog return in book 5 after all, did we?

I can't remember jkr saying this. It appear on websites but I never saw a direct quote of JKR saying that.

The fact that JKR seems to be pushing R/Hr in her interviews without actually condemning H/Hr is very telling to me. That smells awfully of red herring. She has neither confirmed nor denied either relationship, only suggested R/Hr - while never actually condemning H/Hr. Keep that in mind. JKR has also said she would hate for people to guess her plot too accurately. Additionally, her interviews have not matched with the cannon before. The interviews only go so far, really. At the end of the day we should be looking at what is written in the books, not what is said in an interview. Basing it all on interviews is a recipe for disaster. I mean otherwise, i may as well stop reading now because we already know what's coming.

I think she is being honest. Interviewers ask her about H/Hr and if she knows that there is nothing coming she will keep on saying Do you think so? I mean people don’t want her to tell the plot but want her to deny a ship. To please people she gives a clue. (btw the fact that she said that h/hr were platonic friends I consider her a denial) I think all that she said that it was going to happened it did. I have no reason to believe that JKR would be lying as that would be destroying her career. Also she is human making a mistake like the so call Weasley twin, or Aragog and Ford Angolia doesn’t mean she will share her whole planned plot.

Surely then all those H/Hr moments carry some weight?

I hope this is not the hand thing. What else was a H/H ‘moment’?

Gily Ann

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 5:59 pm

How would lying in an interview to put people of the scent be destroying her carreer? If she denys something then when it happens it will surprise people more. J.K. has always wanted to surprise people.

NiCk RiDdLe

July 28th, 2003, 6:09 pm

What About HARRY and CHO. forget ginny. harry needs to actually be able to work things out with Cho. Harry's a woman when it comes to women.

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 6:16 pm

Lying and surprising people are two different things. Stating that R/Hr have more tension have more going and then have nothing is lying. It destroys someones credibility. How would it look on her next book? Surely people may not even bother with her simply because she lies and how good would her word be then. Surprising is another idea. One thing to keep in mind is that while we may want to know who goes with who. JKR may not think is that important.

Gily Ann

Fairydust

July 28th, 2003, 6:20 pm

I think that in the end it will be Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny. Harry and Ginny because they just seem like a right match. And Ron and Hermione because they're too scared and possibly stubborn to admit that they like each other. Also, I don't like the H/H thing because it's so cliche. The hero and the heroine? it always happen. let the heroine be with the hero's side kick. that would be more interesting. oh and for the movies, i think that there's probably this thing going with Dan and Emma and that would probably manifest itself into looking like a H/H thing. Every R/H hint there is is very subtle and you'd just have to read between the lines. H/H is too obvious. it's got to be R/H and H/G. Ginny is who should be with Harry.

Turambar

July 28th, 2003, 6:21 pm

Nice posts today.
Just wondered if people had some thoughts on this:
In the last thread FP had a post which mentioned that the name Luna means the moon. Mar Dhea recently pointed out that the planet associated with Harry's star sign Leo is the sun. There's also the quote by JKR that Luna is the "anti-Hermione" character.
There's also the odd connection with Lupin. Luna is called Loony. Lupin was called Moony for the moon but also there's a scene in POA where Peeves says with "loony, loopy Lupin" - he sings it like it's an old taunt.

Sarmi

July 28th, 2003, 6:28 pm

H/Hr's, have a big :D :tu: :D :tu:

Lying and surprising people are two different things. Stating that R/Hr have more tension have more going and then have nothing is lying. It destroys someones credibility. How would it look on her next book? Surely people may not even bother with her simply because she lies and how good would her word be then. Surprising is another idea. One thing to keep in mind is that while we may want to know who goes with who. JKR may not think is that important.

Gily, JKR is richer than the Queen, she can write whatever she wants, and people will line up to buy it. Her popularity is so much, that were she American, she could quite possibly win the Presidency. I don't think you quite grasp the scope of her fame. She could come right out and tell everyone in a public press conference that Ron and Hermione were going to get together in book 7, Harry would marry Luna, Neville would be the one to defeat Voldemort, and then turn right around and do something different. Would the public be outraged? No. Why? Because authors do not have to tell the truth. Authors are expected to be evasive or misleading with the truth, because it would spoil the story if the plot got out before the book did. For example. JKR had some SERIOUS SECURITY surrounding this book, she DID NOT want anything being leaked. Why? Because she had some twists and turns planned and didn't want people to know what was really going to happen or how it came about. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but people really need to stop believing that JKR MUST tell the truth or it will ruin her credibility.
As an author, she can defuse the whole thing with, "I changed my mind."

Sarmi

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 6:36 pm

Well said Sarmi.

MoF

July 28th, 2003, 6:38 pm

Her popularity is so much, that were she American, she could quite possibly win the Presidency.

HOHOHO. :rotfl: Sorry for being completely and utterly off-topic, I just thought thad one should have an award! What is it that you are suggesting?

Hawk 92

July 28th, 2003, 6:43 pm

Man leave for one day and there are 4 pages of replys to work through.

First to heychang. Sorry there's nothing in your drink. But that's an interesting idea :angel: However I already hear a certain bean counter *coughmadeyemikecough* yelling about costs :lol:

AHHHHHH Teletubbies!!!!!!!

AK

Shall we go through these parts again, OK let's go,

WOW- one of the best R/Hr moments in the whole series. Look at the quote- it’s like something out of a romantic novel, you can’t deny that.

Sure I can. It always take some kind of outside influence to create these moments.

Now I'm not going to go quote by quote unless I have too because what I have problems with is your theory in general.

1) You stated that in books 1-3 it was a general dislike between the 2. So after book 4 you state that hormones have now created these feelings between the 2. So on what other level have they connected? Where is this romance coming from? Now you have established that Hermione feels sympathy for Ron but is that all? Every moment you point to is because she feels sorry for Ron. So are we to guess that Hermione will end up with Ron because she feels pity for him? And you have basically said that in books 1-3 it was a personality clash but with the insertion of hormones the whole clash has just vanished.

2) In your theory to support Hermione's trying to figure out Ron's feelings is overdone. We already know, as well as Hermione, that Ron is the jealous/possive type. So why does Hermione seek confimation of what is clearly established? And your theory turns Hermione into a user. In short you claim that she is using Krum to confirm a already known fact about Ron. That Ron is jealous.

3) You completely omit Hermione's previous relationship with Krum. Now we've seen that Hermione and Ron are basically a fighting couple but Hermione and Krum were not. So we do have a basis for Hermione's kind of relationship and we have nothing to go on with Ron.

Cheers!

Rowayda

July 28th, 2003, 6:48 pm

Personally, i dont think that the pairing will end up to be be Harry- Ginny, Hermione -Ron because JKR said in an interview that no one has yet really figured out the couples,and that its a surprise because shes checked on the internet as well.
It'll probably be Hermione/ Draco , Ginny / Neville,
Harry / Luna and ron dies to save harry harrys life or sumthing.
^Not that i want him too , hes one one of my fav characters, so anyway, wot do u guys think ?

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 6:55 pm

Sorry but D/Hr? Never gonna happen. I don't mind reading that in fan-fics but it won't happen. Hawk 92 kicking R/Hr shipper a$$. :)

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 6:57 pm

QUOTE:

Gily, JKR is richer than the Queen, she can write whatever she wants, and people will line up to buy it. Her popularity is so much, that were she American, she could quite possibly win the Presidency. I don't think you quite grasp the scope of her fame. She could come right out and tell everyone in a public press conference that Ron and Hermione were going to get together in book 7, Harry would marry Luna, Neville would be the one to defeat Voldemort, and then turn right around and do something different. Would the public be outraged? No. Why? Because authors do not have to tell the truth. Authors are expected to be evasive or misleading with the truth, because it would spoil the story if the plot got out before the book did. For example. JKR had some SERIOUS SECURITY surrounding this book, she DID NOT want anything being leaked. Why? Because she had some twists and turns planned and didn't want people to know what was really going to happen or how it came about. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but people really need to stop believing that JKR MUST tell the truth or it will ruin her credibility.
As an author, she can defuse the whole thing with, "I changed my mind."

So money is more important to the author who always "answers truthfully". The person who doesn't want to cheat people. The person who IF someone finds her plot now she couldn't divert now. Because she has laid all her clues. I don't mean to be rude either but people need to stop calling JKR a liar. Things go down as easy as they go up. JKR knows that and she also knows that there is a really big chance that she may not write anything as famous as this ever again. I highly doubt that JKR wants to be remember as a writter who had a famous series and cheated her readers with her own words. Off course money changes everything. :rolleyes:

Gily Ann

haycheng

July 28th, 2003, 7:12 pm

I read the quote but I believe the H/Hr shipper have offered their reason and answer to the quote. May be we are just in denial.(does not matter to me, I would just ship H/G. I love that pair almost as much)However, the quote for R/Hr is lack conviction. "Something going out" is not good enough. It could be one sided or it could mean something remotely romantic. (I would be very sad if it happen :upset: )

What everyone favor couples in movies, TV and novel? I believe those will affect our ability to see. I am interested to see how it affect everyone view on the paring thing.
Here are mine:
Tiger/Del in Jennifer Roberson's sword dancer series
Piper/Leo in Charmed on WB

Other favors are from Chinese novel and I do not think anyone would recognize them anyway.

EDIT: JKR has not given a direct answer regarding pairing. She can do whatever she want with pairing without angrying the readers.

PPS: by the way, Tele give me nightmare. Please stop using Tele for sig.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 7:15 pm

Gily you are really a bit...dunno what to say. It's nothing bad. It's just you have this thing that J.K. always awnsers truthuly and if she lied about anything just to throw readers of the scent then she is cheating her fans and it will ruin her. You keep going on about J.K., "she never lies", "always awnsers truthuly" ect. Do you know her personaly? I wouldn't even classify J.K. saying R/Hr will get together and then they don't as a lie. Just something to keep us on our toes. I don't mean to be rude but...you know. You seem to think you know alot about J.K. If you do then you would know that she normaly likes to keep even the smallest pieces of info secret so the fans are surprised.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 7:19 pm

Also haycheng my fav TV couple are Buffy and Angel.

Fairydust

July 28th, 2003, 7:29 pm

I also like Buffy and Angel. anyhoo, i there's anything in the movie that suggests H/H then that's because of the tension lying between the actors. In the movies we always see add in scenes where Ron and Hermione are together. If JK hadn't okayed them then they wouldn't be in the movie. she probably okayed them because it's R/H. also, JK said the quote that people weren't with the right people in book four and she was right. Hermione was with Krum-nah uh, Harry was seriously crushing on Cho- heck no, Ron was with Padma- they weren't enjoying each others company so that's okay, and Ginny was having her feet stepped on by Neville- cute, but not gonna happen. JK has given subtle hints and worked too hard to go back and totally mess up the story between R/H by putting it H/H. the clues are so subtle that you have to read between the lines. R/H is all about subtlety. H/H is practically smack dab in your face because their friendship is strong. But the key word is friendship. they're friends. no romantic inkling in either of them. R/H, H/G, and hopefully N/L (they'd be so cute). anyhoo i hope this post makes sense.

Sarmi

July 28th, 2003, 7:33 pm

Hey guys! We've had some great posts! :tu: :agree: :tu:

However, I have noticed that it's becoming a little warm in here. Please remember that we don't want this thread shut down, so let's all just take a deep breath and calm down. :sigh:

Earendil, I love ya.......but please for pete's sake, take the Teletubbies down!!!!!!! :grumble:

So money is more important to the author who always "answers truthfully". The person who doesn't want to cheat people. The person who IF someone finds her plot now she couldn't divert now. Because she has laid all her clues. I don't mean to be rude either but people need to stop calling JKR a liar. Things go down as easy as they go up. JKR knows that and she also knows that there is a really big chance that she may not write anything as famous as this ever again. I highly doubt that JKR wants to be remember as a writter who had a famous series and cheated her readers with her own words. Off course money changes everything.

Well, JKR hasn't confirmed or denied anything. She's pushed R/Hr to the forefront, yet at the sametime has yet to deny H/Hr.

She has admitted to dodging the questions to avoid the issue. Plus, JKR has total control over what questions are asked in her interviews now. The reporters that want to get an interview from her have to sign a six page contract and it explicitly tells them what they can and cannot ask.

Sarmi

PS - FYI Mega, double posting is really frowned on here. There's an edit button on the lower right hand side of your post if you need to add anything.

sone

July 28th, 2003, 7:34 pm

Evaluna, it is certainly possible. Hermione, I bet, had no idea how much she was bugging or ignoring Viktor with all her talk and attention on Harry. Harry was utterly bewildered what he said that made Cho was so upset. Granted Harry said something really stupid, but if Cho did not think there was something between them, she would of never got as upset as she did. Just hearing how he could talk to Hermione about Cedric dying seemed to confirm Cho's worst fears. Like someone said earlier, it is their body language around each other or something else that seems to click very naturally between them that their "signficant others" do not like. They didn't even try or want to make them jealous and they did without even noticing it. For 4834th time :) I bring up the Grawp scene (though I could use others) where Harry immediately seizes Hermione away from Grawp's hand. Hermione embraces Harry shaking and wimpering. I mean people always say Ron is the first to Hermione's defense and not Harry but that makes me wonder even more is why is it that whenever she is scared, she holds on to Harry regardless of whether Ron is there or not? People always say that Ron stands up for Hermione when Malfoy insults but I notice that Hermione never takes it as personally as Ron does. What I mean is, he has always gotten more of rise out of Harry and Ron for calling Hermione a mudblood than Hermione herself so who is Malfoy really trying to set off? It seemed that Malfoy finally touched a nerve in Hermione when he insulted Harry not being made a prefect instead of Ron.

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 7:36 pm

Do you know her personaly? I wouldn't even classify J.K. saying R/Hr will get together and then they don't as a lie. Just something to keep us on our toes. I don't mean to be rude but...you know. You seem to think you know alot about J.K. If you do then you would know that she normaly likes to keep even the smallest pieces of info secret so the fans are surprised.

Between H/Hr perspective and JKR's perspective. I'll take hers thank you very much!. She is the one writting the series. She should now more than any of us. So I'm going to believe her when she says that she is truthfull, that she doesn't want to cheat her readers and when she says that H/Hr are 'very platonic friends'. And yes I know that I am . . . thanks!

Gily Ann

Sarmi

July 28th, 2003, 7:43 pm

Between H/Hr perspective and JKR's perspective. I'll take hers thank you very much!. She is the one writting the series. She should now more than any of us. So I'm going to believe her when she says that she is truthfull, that she doesn't want to cheat her readers and when she says that H/Hr are 'very platonic friends'.

I agree, however, JKR has contradicted herself in her interviews with what she's written. For example, JKR keeps stressing that Ron & Hermione have that "tension." However, in OotP, there was no tension between Ron and Hermione. The "tension" that I was expecting to see was something along what was in GoF, yet she didn't do that.

Which would you believe, the interviews or the canon?

Me, I'd rather believe the canon over her interviews. What she's written is more solid than what she has said.

Sarmi

YouKnowWho

July 28th, 2003, 7:45 pm

Well, it seems obvious Hermione doesn't fancy Harry. She was trying to help Harry with Cho without showing any emotion. So she doesn't care if Harry fancies somebody else then her, or else she would've gon angry just like she did when Ron was staring at Fleur in GoF, she was jealous then i think...

There are to many proofs that Ron likes Hermione to deny it. However, can we find proofs enough for the fact that Hermione fancies Ron?

#1: Rowling said that in the second movie some clues were dropped, that weren't in the books. When Hermione is just un-petrified, she runs to Harry and gives him a big hug. Only she and Ron shake hands awkward, scared of their feelings? (I know this is already mentioned a lot, but i thougt i should post it again to make the list of proofs a little longer)
#2: She is very, very depressed when she has a fight with Ron in PoA, ofcourse that is logical, but maybe she's double depressed because she really likes Ron?
#3: She is angry when Ron's staring at Fleur Delacour. Jealous?
#4: She's blushing when she finds out that not Harry- but Ron is made a prefect. Could this be the reason for blushing: the fact that she knows this will give her more reasons to spend time with Ron?
#5: A general proof: They are constantly having a fight, it's a cliché that people who argue in the way Ron and Hermione do, end up together after all...

I couldn't find more proofs for now, but maybe you guys/girls have noticed some more???

Joshman687

July 28th, 2003, 7:55 pm

Wow, thats pretty good youknowho, i never realized that the clip and the end of the 2nd movie with Ron and Hermionie could be interperted as her liking ron, i always thought it showed how much she felt 4 harry and how she felt awkeard around ron

Hawk 92

July 28th, 2003, 7:56 pm

#2: She is very, very depressed when she has a fight with Ron in PoA, ofcourse that is logical, but maybe she's double depressed because she really likes Ron?

Care to prove this with a little text?

#3: She is angry when Ron's staring at Fleur Delacour. Jealous?

Nope. There is an established link that Hermione dislikes Fleur before any Ron/Fleur interaction.

#4: She's blushing when she finds out that not Harry- but Ron is made a prefect. Could this be the reason for blushing: the fact that she knows this will give her more reasons to spend time with Ron?

Or it could be the fact that she had just stuck her foot in her mouth by assuming that Harry was made prefect and then couldn't think of a reason for Ron being made prefect. Also note her reaction to when she thought that Harry was made prefect as to when she thought that Ron was made prefect.

#5: A general proof: They are constantly having a fight, it's a cliché that people who argue in the way Ron and Hermione do, end up together after all...

Oddly enough I keep hearing hero gets girl is soooo cliche. Can't fighting also be the sign of conflicting personalities?

Cheers!

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 8:06 pm

Original post by Hawk92
2) In your theory to support Hermione's trying to figure out Ron's feelings is overdone. We already know, as well as Hermione, that Ron is the jealous/possive type. So why does Hermione seek confimation of what is clearly established? And your theory turns Hermione into a user. In short you claim that she is using Krum to confirm a already known fact about Ron. That Ron is jealous.

Great post, 00Hawk. Not 'fessing up about that legilimency, eh? I warned HayCheng that direct answers would not be forthcoming [sort of like JKR, eh?].

But this is a serious issue IMO as it gets at the heart of the opposing ship, and you, HayCheng, and others have mentioned it repeatedly because it is critical. It seems that the idea that Hermione fancies Ron rests in part on the implicit [or even explicit] twin pillars of Hermione's insecurity and her emotional manipulation of Ron, and I just don't see it in canon regarding Ron. I certainly won't go with Hermione being insecure regarding Ron. Why? Ron's made his crush pretty clear to Hermione, even if he's done so in a bumbling or even outright offensive manner.

Moreover, if Hermione's such a scheming wench [due to insecurity, cruelty, &/or other?], I mean really, why on earth would Ron fancy her? [And as an aside, why would Harry hold her in such high regard, come to that? We know Harry has instinctively shown compassion in many situations, and there is no sign that he ever thought Hermione cruel or manipulative toward Ron or anyone else] Again, are we to credit Ron for having any discretion at all regarding judgment of character? Or is he so shallow that this counts for nothing when confronted with a pretty face? I think Ron is not that shallow even if somewhat immature and even if his crush is rather superficial. He has standards, even if weakened in the face of Veela magic...After all, his crush focuses on Hermione, not just someone tangential like Fleur or some such. I think he admires and likes Hermione whilst at the same time he resents or is intimidated by her at times. But I don't see any evidence in canon that Ron or anyone else thinks Hermione is toying with him in the first place, nor that she would ever do for any reason.

Original post by Turambar
Nice posts today.
Just wondered if people had some thoughts on this:
In the last thread FP had a post which mentioned that the name Luna means the moon. Mar Dhea recently pointed out that the planet associated with Harry's star sign Leo is the sun. There's also the quote by JKR that Luna is the "anti-Hermione" character.
There's also the odd connection with Lupin. Luna is called Loony. Lupin was called Moony for the moon but also there's a scene in POA where Peeves says with "loony, loopy Lupin" - he sings it like it's an old taunt.

Turambar: Very interesting point. I always thought there was some critical significance both to Luna's name and her being classified as the "anti-Hermione". For the latter, it seemed to me to possibly indicate that Luna is what Ron needs, rather than what he thinks he wants. For the former, her actual name and its obvious relationship to Lupin...hmmm. That deserves some attention. They are both of them somehow key to Harry's metaphysical growth and understanding, as represented by the moon reflecting the sun's light, and by the ancient use of the moon/Cancer symbolising the gateway of the soul, i.e., the veil between the physical and the metaphysical/hereafter or repository of souls. The arch, I think, is just this gateway and somehow I think both Lupin and Luna will be key to this.

Perhaps Luna through her mother has some knowledge of Lily and possible Unmentionable work. Perhaps Lupin knows more, and perhaps especially more about James. Perhaps much more. Tons more.
OK it's a theory...but I think they somehow hold keys to Harry's understanding of his parents and Harry's eventual reconcilation with their deaths after all these years. I think they'll help Harry in his struggle to overcome his pain and his anger from their different, more spiritual perspectives, and meanwhile I still think that day-to-day, Hermione will be his love, his rock, his foundation, and the key to his being able to absorb and handle everything he'll come to know. Particularly without the love of Hermione, Lupin and Luna's insights and wisdom might fall on fallow soil, but with her at his side, their knowledge can take root and allow Harry to grow spiritually such that he is able to fully understand and utilise his greatest strengths of universal love and compassion to overcome Voldy/fear and hatred.

Total supposition just on the spot...what does anyone else think?

Original post by Rowayda
It'll probably be Hermione/ Draco <etc>

Dear god nooooo....If it turns out this way, I'll eat Buckbeak, and surely we don't want that. I think Hermione is willing to stand on her convictions against racism, but let's hope she's never willing to debase herself on the sacrificial altar of racists like the Malfoys. Plus where would this warm fuzzy for Draco be coming from, other than out of nowhere?

AvadaKedavra

July 28th, 2003, 8:13 pm

1) You stated that in books 1-3 it was a general dislike between the 2. So after book 4 you state that hormones have now created these feelings between the 2

(later)

And you have basically said that in books 1-3 it was a personality clash but with the insertion of hormones the whole clash has just vanished.

I am not an excellent pyschoanalyst. I merely only attribute what I have experienced and what I gather from the canon presented in the text to make my conclusion and my theory. Allow me to explain again, as you don't understand what I am trying to say.

Ron and Hermione are friends, as from October 31st 1991. However, there is a personality clash between them, that I give you. This interferes with their friendship, and creates *some* dislike. Not *general*.

When they start their hormones- they get feelings for each other. But this does not improve things immediately. GoF is VERY tentative, showing both dealing with their feelings deep down, and outside behaviour that may be translated to romantic feelings for each other. However, there is still the issue of the personality clash, which leads to the usual arguments.

BUT- with their new feelings, there is already an established outlet for them to siphon their frustration into, and also to get that cheap subsitute of electricity generated by the attention that replaces the REAL romantic and caring electricity that they deep down would rather to have, but aren't prepared make yet. And, yes, some arguments are simply attributed to the already existing personality clash, and some are a mixture.

Where did I say that the clash has vanished? Kindly give me a quote supporting this assumption. Thanks.

2) In your theory to support Hermione's trying to figure out Ron's feelings is overdone. We already know, as well as Hermione, that Ron is the jealous/possive type. So why does Hermione seek confimation of what is clearly established? And your theory turns Hermione into a user. In short you claim that she is using Krum to confirm a already known fact about Ron. That Ron is jealous.

Aha! I must point out, this is not "overdone". Ron displays jealous behaviour, but Hermione desperately wants that 100% confirmation- in other words, confirmation that the jealous behaviour/(or any other slight indicator- i.e. perfume) is driven by HIS ROMANTIC FEELING FOR HER.
She wants to know this. So Hermione may want to use Krum to provoke Ron into revealing his feelings for her, but the stubborn boy won't seem to totally confirm it, instead choosing to remain slightly ambigious to Hermione. However, to us, the objective analysts who are obsessed deeply with HP, it's clear as DAY.

3) You completely omit Hermione's previous relationship with Krum. Now we've seen that Hermione and Ron are basically a fighting couple but Hermione and Krum were not. So we do have a basis for Hermione's kind of relationship and we have nothing to go on with Ron.

I consider Krum and Hermione's relationship irrelevant. There are SO many differences between Krum and Ron. Where does it say that Krum's and Hermione's relationship is romantic in OOTP? And why do I have to consider this anyway? Krum wasn't the one. Ron may be. So it is bound to have a difference in their respective relationship.

So you're saying that Ron should dye his hair dark, become duck footed and discover sudden extraordinary quidditch skills and speak with a bulgarian accent in order to win Hermione over? Are those the type of guys that Hermione goes for? In fact, we don't know that for sure that Hermione is romantically interested in Krum.

Earendil

*recieves handshake with utmost shock :wow:

Anyway,

In order for

H/Hr to happen, Hermione must stop being an insufferable know it all and stop being so bossy, and actually allow Harry some leeway regarding his emotions, understanding them better, and stop being so overbearing.

H/Hr to happen, Harry must start liking Hermione out of the blue, whereas previously there was no BIG sign that he did.

It's interesting that some H/Hr shippers- I forget who- say that the course of true love never runs smooth, and some others (yourself) say that Hermione and Harry don't have much work left to do, hence a smooth ride for the rest of the series.

In fact, I would say R/Hr have had a hell of a ride so far, fitting the "the course of true love never runs smooth" description better.

GREAT POSTS EVERYONE,

:tu: for GilyAnn (for sticking up for R/Hr especially when she isn't a die hard shipper)

and a :tu: for Earendil for actually shaking my hand! Can't quite believe it myself!

Haycheng

I wouldn't be so sure about that Hawk fellow. I think he defnitely had something to do with your drink- and it must have been something extremely powerful- your vision is still clouded.

:p

Signing out,

Avada

Fairydust

July 28th, 2003, 8:14 pm

it's got to be R/H and H/G. too many subtle hints are given to indicate that's going to happen just to be wiped away. also, if you want to go to interviews then JK has said so many times and she stresses it alot. Harry and Hermione are just friends. They are not suited. now Ron and Hermione...

noddwyd

July 28th, 2003, 8:25 pm

Okay, here's the part from Harry's pov. First, he is an orphan, made to live with his aunt and uncle, who basically treat him as sub-human, and for the first ten years of his life (minus the one year he had with his parents which he doesn't even remember) he has no love from anyone. No friends, no parental figures, no family, nothing. Just the company of people who's first instinct would probably have been to dump him in a river to drown as a child rather than take him in. Then he enters the wizarding world, and becomes friends with Ron and Hermione. This is the first form of love he recieves. However, he still has many holes in his heart, as shown by him seeing his dead family in the mirror. Harry's friends are his strength for the first three years. The daring and crazy stuff he does is all for them, they are the driving force behind it. I often wonder what would have happened, had Harry spent that train ride alone in that compartment, or had Draco been the one he spent the train ride with. He would've been a loner, for one thing, it would be his natural tendency. He probably wouldn't have gotten into half those crazy situations he did. And he would probably be dead a few times over by now, too. Anyway, then comes Sirius. Sirius is Harry's first real parental figure, and fills another huge gap in his heart. And in the DoM scenes, it is his love for Sirius that drives him to do what he does, and then it switches over to his friends when he realizes he's been tricked, just like Hermione said. Sirius dies getting him out of this situation, and leaves another hole where 'Sirius used to be'. So now he is worse off than before.

Okay, taking all of that into consideration, I try to see how different pairings would affect him. R/Hr. I think its possible he could accept this, although it might hurt him in some way. It would distance him from the other two, and he may become more of a loner, which, as I said (and I think others have mentioned this as well) would be his natural tendency. This is compounded with the fact that he knows the prophecy now, and has already developed a feeling of detachment from the rest of the world. Even his friends. Plus, he still has a lot of greif and guilt over Sirius. Now, many think that this is where some other girl would step in, like Ginny. But then I think, what do we really know about Ginny? To be truthful, next to nothing. (the same can be said for Cho, interestingly enough) So unless the last two books are devoted almost solely on character development for her, I don't see this happening. If it did it would feel fake, contrived. The same goes for Luna. (but for Ron/Luna it could work because it doesn't need to take centerstage. Remember, the books are Harry's pov) So in this case, I see Harry very much alone. The only way he could find happiness is in death. Where his family will meet him. Now for H/Hr. The whole 'best friends who wake up one day and realize the can't live without each other' thing. A very good possibility, and as I've said before, it would probably have the most powerful emotional effect on the reader as compared with the other pairings because Hermione and Harry are the two most complex and deep characters. There has also been a steady development in their relationship over the years. This relationship would definitely stop Harry from distancing himself and becoming a loner like I mentioned earlier. It would give him the strength he needs to challenge and defeat Tom, as well. However, I don't think this relationship will come without a price. In fact, I personally don't think Harry will realize he loves Hermione until its too late. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it may come to him right after she sacrifices herself to save him.(as his mother did) If this happens, then he will have nothing left to live for and after he destroys Riddle, will probably follow her in death.

And that brings me to this. I think killing Voldemort will have grave consequences for Harry. They are connected by the scar, but we have no idea just how deep that connection is or what will happen if either of them perishes. There are several ways this could play out. First, it could be that when Voldemort dies permenantly, Harry absorbs even more of his power, and comes out of it more powerful than before. Second, Harry kills Voldemort, but as he dies, his power leaves Harry and goes with him, leaving Harry weakened, possibly dead, or reduced to a squib. And finally, Harry dies trying and their connection causes Voldemort to die with him. Either way, it seems more likely that Harry will end up dead, which is where he can find happiness. In death.

Sirius83

July 28th, 2003, 8:25 pm

I've said this before. The fact that JKR hypes R/Hr in her interviews while never actually condemning H/Hr is what is most telling to me. However, as i've also said before - interviews are just that - interviews. They are not the books. Truth be told if someone hit the spot dead on in an interview, JKR will never confirm it as correct unless it has already happened. One should always take those interviews with a grain of salt.

What i can't understand is why people always run to the quotes when there's plenty to support both ships in cannon.

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 8:27 pm

H/G is my mosted hated couple. Don't know why.

Fairydust

July 28th, 2003, 8:31 pm

why do you not like H/G?

Mega

July 28th, 2003, 8:35 pm

It's just obvious. Girl has crush on boy, girl acts stupid, boy doesn't realize, girl stops acting stupid, boy takes notice of her and they both live happy ever after.

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 8:37 pm

I agree, however, JKR has contradicted herself in her interviews with what she's written. For example, JKR keeps stressing that Ron & Hermione have that "tension." However, in OotP, there was no tension between Ron and Hermione. The "tension" that I was expecting to see was something along what was in GoF, yet she didn't do that.

Which would you believe, the interviews or the canon?

Just because the interpretation of H/Hr shippers say that R/Hr have no tension it doesn't mean that it doens't exist. R/Hr have tension in OoP. So far her words and Cannon match well. So I think I can take both.

Gily Ann

Hawk 92

July 28th, 2003, 8:41 pm

Great post, 00Hawk. Not 'fessing up about that legilimency, eh? I warned HayCheng that direct answers would not be forthcoming [sort of like JKR, eh?].

Me???? Use legilimency??? Do you think I would??????

AK

BUT- with their new feelings, there is already an established outlet for them to siphon their frustration into, and also to get that cheap subsitute of electricity generated by the attention that replaces the REAL romantic and caring electricity that they deep down would rather to have, but aren't prepared make yet. And, yes, some arguments are simply attributed to the already existing personality clash, and some are a mixture.

So how do you seperate the 2? Short of when it supports my theory.

Aha! I must point out, this is not "overdone". Ron displays jealous behaviour, but Hermione desperately wants that 100% confirmation- in other words, confirmation that the jealous behaviour/(or any other slight indicator- i.e. perfume) is driven by HIS ROMANTIC FEELING FOR HER.
She wants to know this. So Hermione may want to use Krum to provoke Ron into revealing his feelings for her, but the stubborn boy won't seem to totally confirm it, instead choosing to remain slightly ambigious.

1) So you are saying that Hermione is using Krum. And since the post Yule Ball was as subtle as a stunner in the face. Plus the fact that Ron gets upset everytime Hermione mentions Krum she needs even more confirmation and she doesn't bother to look for hints short of past the jealousy.

2) Hermione is apparently not allowed to make friends outside of the Trio according to your theroy. Because if she does she is simply using them to test Ron. Now Hermione and Krum are friends romantic or not remains to be seen. And I don't think that Hermione would just use Krum to test what is already as clear as day.

I consider Krum and Hermione's relationship irrelevant.

In short since it doesn't fit your theory you choose to omit it.

There are SO many differences between Krum and Ron.

True on many levels.

Where does it say that Krum's and Hermione's relationship is romantic in OOTP? And why do I have to consider this anyway? Krum wasn't the one. Ron may be. So it is bound to have a difference in their respective relationship.

Where does it say that it isn't? Krum might not be the one but he is the one that has been. A good hint to the type of relationship that Hermione seeks.

So you're saying that Ron should dye his hair dark, become duck footed and discover sudden extraordinary quidditch skills and speak with a bulgarian accent in order to win Hermione over? Are those the type of guys that Hermione goes for? In fact, we don't know that for sure that Hermione is romantically interested in Krum.

Nope. Sorry you misunderstood. I was saying that if you look at Hermione and Krums relationship in Gof you will see that they are described as being in conversation and getting to know each other. Not fighting. Not yelling at each other. No need to substitute fighting for possible emotions. This is what I'm pointing at. Nothing physical involved. It is interesting that you thought I was.

And I will point out a couple of things about Hermione and Krum

1) Their first date is the Yule Ball.
2) Krum tells Hermione that he has never felt this way about another person after the second task at the end of Feburary. Almost 2 months later
3) Krum confronts Harry about Hermione later than this.
4) Krum and Hermione speak at the end of Gof
5) After Krum and Hermione speak she kisses Harry.

Now what does this say

1) Hermione continued to see Krum and to get to know him better despite Ron's feelings at the end of the Yule Ball. A fair amount of time has lapsed here.
2) Krum and Hermione's relationship is getting more serious as time goes by
3) Despite this Hermione talks about Harry a lot
4) Something takes place at the end of Gof. Romantic or platonic is yet to be seen
5) The kiss to Harry depends on what Hermione and Krums relationship is
a) If Hr/K is platonic then the kiss has romantic implications
b) If Hr/K is romantic then the kiss has platonic implications

And I'll go back to the whole Hermione wanting confirmation, where besides the whole jealous thing is she seeking confirmation?

Cheers!

Earendil

July 28th, 2003, 8:44 pm

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Yes I see your point but my point is that this are 11 year old kids they are not going to marry. One thing that OoP brought was the less fighting of Ron and Hermione. Ron being able to control himself a lot better and Hermione being softer on Ron.

Prior to OotP, Ron and Hermione's fighting was considered to be the biggest support for the R/Hr ship. Then we see alot less of it in OotP itself, and that's good too? I'm confused. The fighting is a sign of their sexual tension, but there's alot less of it in OotP--doesn't it follow logic that the tension is gone as well?

I also find it interesting that there was less pointless bickering between Ron and Hermione and more Harry-centric conversations between them taking place off-stage. Take Harry out of the equation and I wonder what Ron and Hermione would talk about.

It could also mean that Ron wants to do better and thinks that Hermione can’t be wrong. So he looks out for her approval and help.
From what I've seen, Ron doesn't ask for her approval. He asks to copy off her work--even though he knows that she refuses to do so.

Oh Ron can be in a lot of help. I think it will be soon time for Hermione to discover how Ron can help her. Again Hermione is brilliant but she lacks people skills. One of the reasons that I think that Dumbledore made a good choice on Hermione and Ron for prefect is that one one lacks the other one has plenty off.

I agree that Ron can be alot of help to her. The problem is, Hermione has already established a pattern of showing more dependence on Harry. With only two books left, I don't think it would be worth the effort and time constraints to develop a sudden dependence on Ron, when Hermione has clearly shown that she does not appreciate his strong points.

OotP would have been a wonderful chance to develop a more interdependent relationship. A few times, Hermione attempted to enlist the support of Ron in her war with the Weasley twins, and even in her efforts to convince Harry on the DA. However, Rowling chose to show Ron shying away from backing her up, proving that Hermione even at this point cannot depend on him--even when she tries to.

Yes but Hermione does that often also. She also picks up arguments with Ron when she knows that it bothers him.

Very true. Which is part of why their relationship is incompatible in my eyes. They certainly appear to deliberately pick petty arguments with each other, which are never resolved and are frankly annoying after five years of it. I can imagine this becoming even more tedious in a long-term relationship.
---------------------------

Interesting theory, evaluna, I also can't help but wonder about the significant of Luna and Lupin. This moon thing is a little too suspicious to be coincidental.

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
When they start their hormones- they get feelings for each other. But this does not improve things immediately. GoF is VERY tentative, showing both dealing with their feelings deep down, and outside behaviour that may be translated to romantic feelings for each other. However, there is still the issue of the personality clash, which leads to the usual arguments.

My question would be where these feelings came from. If, like you said, their personalities clash and their arguments created feelings of dislike, why would romantic feelings miraculously materialize out of the blue? The foundation has been laid for Harry and Hermione to develop romantic feelings, because their friendship has been consistently developed as being stronger and more fundamentally harmonious than Ron and Hermione's. While it's very true that this is not real life and that anything can happen at the author's will in fiction, one must wonder how romantic feelings sprung up between two characters whose friendship was previously limited to pointless bickering and the very rare side of getting along. The latter of which, I may add, most frequently occurs in the presence of Harry rather than between the two of them on their own.

Aha! I must point out, this is not "overdone". Ron displays jealous behaviour, but Hermione desperately wants that 100% confirmation- in other words, confirmation that the jealous behaviour/(or any other slight indicator- i.e. perfume) is driven by HIS ROMANTIC FEELING FOR HER.
She wants to know this. So Hermione may want to use Krum to provoke Ron into revealing his feelings for her, but the stubborn boy won't seem to totally confirm it, instead choosing to remain slightly ambigious.
This is alot of speculation, so I'll leave it alone. I have to say that the thought of Hermione desperately wanting Ron to reveal his feelings for her after the boy has given her a hell of a time for living her own life, attempted to crib off her work for five years, belittled her opinions, and pried into her personal life is a little unsettling to me. If Hermione was trying to goad Ron into revealing his feelings, why doesn't she milk the Viktor angle? Why the mysteriousness? It would be much more logical and alot clearer both to Ron and to the readers if Hermione made a point of bringing up Viktor and drawing attention to their correspondence. However, the whole concept of Hermione manipulating Ron into revealing his feelings for her is so out of character that the point is moot.

The rest is addressed to Hawk, so I'll stop butting in and reply to what was directed to me.

In order for

H/Hr to happen, Hermione must stop being an insufferable know it all and stop being so bossy, and actually allow Harry some leeway regarding his emotions, understanding them better, and stop being so overbearing.
Not a "must". Hermione's bossiness toward Harry originates from her desire to keep him safe at all costs, and he knows this. It's something that Harry has clearly been able to understand, even if he doesn't like it or he doesn't pay attention to it. After OotP, he has realized that all the advice he ignored from Hermione was right, and if he's got anything like a brain in his head he'll start listening to her a little more. However, why does she have to stop being so overbearing for Harry? Isn't she overbearing with Ron too?

H/Hr to happen, Harry must start liking Hermione out of the blue, whereas previously there was no BIG sign that he did.

But there is plenty of debatable evidence that he has already begun to care for her on a deeper level, even if it is only subconscious. Perdita went through this in her essays regarding Harry's subconscious feelings. This isn't a hugely impossible "unless", because there is evidence that it has already begun.

It's interesting that some H/Hr shippers- I forget who- say that the course of true love never runs smooth, and some others (yourself) say that Hermione and Harry don't have much work left to do, hence a smooth ride for the rest of the series.

Not for the rest of the series, just for the development of H/Hr. Yes, I believe it will be a pretty smooth ride in terms of the progression of feelings, but the "course of true love" for them will be anything but smooth. So many complications that I can't even fit them into one post. Which is why I don't think Harry and Hermione will officially "get together" and live happily ever after; but that they will develop and realize their stronger feelings.

Psst, AK: Dunno why you're so surprised that I agreed with you. LOTR fans unite despite shipping differences, true? :agree:

What, the teletubbies creep you guys out? Really? Well, in that case--I'll, er, get rid of them right away. :whistle: *crosses fingers behind back and resolves to keep teletubbies as long as humanly possible*

:elaugh:

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 8:47 pm

Original post by noddwyd
However, I don't think this relationship will come without a price. In fact, I personally don't think Harry will realize he loves Hermione until its too late. As mentioned earlier in the thread, it may come to him right after she sacrifices herself to save him.(as his mother did) If this happens, then he will have nothing left to live for and after he destroys Riddle, will probably follow her in death.

And that brings me to this. I think killing Voldemort will have grave consequences for Harry. They are connected by the scar, but we have no idea just how deep that connection is or what will happen if either of them perishes. There are several ways this could play out. First, it could be that when Voldemort dies permenantly, Harry absorbs even more of his power, and comes out of it more powerful than before. Second, Harry kills Voldemort, but as he dies, his power leaves Harry and goes with him, leaving Harry weakened, possibly dead, or reduced to a squib. And finally, Harry dies trying and their connection causes Voldemort to die with him. Either way, it seems more likely that Harry will end up dead, which is where he can find happiness. In death.

Noddwyd: There are no inconsistencies in your presentation. Brilliant but heartbreaking. And it’s only for this reason that I’m trying to find some out. JKR has said that Harry needs Hermione desperately. I’m hoping that as in OoP, it’s her presence that will save him, not her memory. That she will be his foundation, not his guardian spirit. He has his real mother already for that. I’m also hoping Lupin/Luna will guide Harry in various metaphysical and spiritual ways [along the lines of DoM inner sanctum themes] that will allow Harry to reconcile the deaths of his parents, Sirius [et al…], such that he is able to realise his deepest desires on this earth rather than having to die to realise them. I am banking on the hidden Lupin/Luna angle [faith, hope, transcending limitations through understanding], in addition to Hermione’s Presence/Light [love, compassion, transcending limitations through giving] to save Harry from dying to fulfill his deepest desires. And on the quote from OoP that Harry survives for “years to come”. And anything else I can grab onto…but it's mostly just my own hopes, which is a scary thing to admit.

And as for Harry losing powers versus gaining them, I don’t think that will be a problem for Harry, as I don’t think he’ll defeat Voldy with traditional magic anyway. And fame and power were never Harry’s deepest desires, were they? The only problem in my book is if Harry’s dead, because clearly he can’t realise his deepest desires on this earth if he’s dead. And that’s my only fervent wish, that Harry realise his deepest desires on this earth – i.e., that Harry find love in the here and now, not the hereafter. This is really difficult for me, so I suppose I should thank you for making me confront a topic that I try to avoid ;)…but great post, nonetheless.

EDIT:
Original post by Avada Kedavra
It's interesting that some H/Hr shippers- I forget who- say that the course of true love never runs smooth, and some others (yourself) say that Hermione and Harry don't have much work left to do, hence a smooth ride for the rest of the series.

AK: just to clarify, sone amd I were initially discussing that quote regarding the amount of opposition and jealousy that Harry and Hermione have already encountered from others, despite that they aren't even yet officially together! We were not discussing it in terms of whether Harry and Hermoine personally have any major compatibility issues, as our ship has pretty thoroughly argued that this is not the case and that there is a solid foundation of mutual caring and respect and overcoming of differences in their relationship to date.

Lastly, 00Hawk, you know I'll certainly never tell. That's classified, and you said so yourself ;)