CoSForums Archive - Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

Perdita

July 28th, 2003, 10:01 pm

Again I think we may be missing something here if we think that Hermione's relationship to her namesake in a Winter's Tale is based on Ron being symbolically akin to Leontes. What I mean is, I think that Hermione's relationship to her namesake can stand on its own. So if everything is a direct analogy, are we condemning poor Hermione to a lengthy exile and a slandered reputation backed by the ruling authority [if she were to go with Ron], until such time as Leontes [if he=Ron] was finally convinced to see the light of her innocence? And what good thing, I ask you, could this possibly say about Ron? In fact a comparison like this seems like a red flag for Hr/R, that Hermione would suffer needlessly with Ron. I think the parallel holds most directly for Hermione and Hermione alone, in that she stood up to the highest authority in the land [and her husband, moreover] and risked everything, everything, for truth and honour, for justice, for those most vulnerable and who were dependent on her [symbolised by her child Perdita], and for defense of her character. I think that this is what JKR might have seen as most relevent in Hermione's Shakespearean precedent. IMO. Perdita, more to add?
Cheers!

Hi evaluna,

I just got back from a trip over the weekend and I haven't had time to get caught up on all the posts. However, I did see that you've been asking for help on this topic because a couple of people have mentioned the correlation between HP and TWT.

For those who are interested, this is the comparison I did of HP Hermione and TWT's Queen Hermione for part 4 (?) of the Book 5 Love Thread long before the release of OOTP. It is also contained within the H/Hr File, attached to poster BabyMars’s signature. For new posters, I suggest that you go and read that file. It is long, but it may well be worth your time because it has the answers to a lot of questions that I see popping up here over the last 10 pages or so.

On to the comparison (excerpts from the file):
Both Hermiones are very intelligent and have a tireless ability to reason with other people and pursuade them to comply with what she wants them to do.
Both have been turned into statues - Granger being petrified in CoS.
Both are portrayed as standing atop a landing as the man looks up to her, and then she approaches them with delight and pleasure - the Queen “descends” from the gallery to embrace Leontes; and Granger standing atop the “white flight of steps to Gringotts. She ran down to meet them, her bushy hair flying behind her’ (CoS, Ch Flourish and Blotts, 46).
Both have been accused of committing betrayal - Queen with Polixenes and Granger with Krum.
This was Turambar’s response:
Leontes is also similar to Ron because they both accused the two Hermiones of being unfaithful and disloyal.
The thing there is that Ron accused Hermione of betraying Harry rather than himself so it makes a stronger case for Harry = Leontes. It does seem that JKR has already used those themes of the statue and betrayal so maybe what's to come is the theme of Hermione being loved by two men: Harry and Ron?
My reply was:
Re: Leontes ll Ron or Harry?
At the beginning of the play, Leontes sounds very much like Ron. He's forward, somewhat vain, and later he jumps to the conclusion that Hermione committed adultery without having any substantial evidence. He also hires one of his ministers, Camillo, to help poison his best friend, Polixenes, to death.

Polixenes is very well mannered. I don't remember what he's like in the middle of the play, but and Hermione do get along very very well. That's why it made Leontes suspicious. Polixenes would listen to Hermione when he would not listen to Leontes.

It seems to me that Rowling has taken the traits from both male characters and switch them with the roles of HP. Instead of the rash Ron being the star of the story, it is the milder Harry who gets the spotlight.

I think that this is clever on her part because if she followed the play too closely, there would be too many links to her own characters and the relationships made too obvious.

-----

I agree with evaluna’s response to Avada and DD the Wise. At the ending of the play, Leontes and Hermione do reconcile, but one has to question what is the basis of their reconciliation? Because of Leontes’ rashness and jealousy, not to mention his lack of trust in the woman he is supposed to love, he is the one who almost killed her. He would have, had not Paulina stepped in and saved Hermione.

During the reunion, Hermione embraces Leontes, and that is what convinces him that she is actually alive. Then she turns to Perdita and not a word is spoken between Hermione and Leontes. One could argue that Hermione has not returned to Leontes at all. She has returned to him in person, but her spirit has retuned for her daughter. For the rest of the reunion, her attention is focussed on Perdita. Leontes admits his fault, but we don’t hear Hermione express her forgiveness. It is left up to the reader to surmise that perhaps she will forgive him, but it’s not expressed in words. One could also argue that she is only forgiving him for his fault so that her daughter can be raised properly as a princess so that she may marry her lover.

If Leontes is Ron, then things don’t look good for Hermione Granger.

*****
I just check the text and in her speechat the end of the play, she says that it is the hope of seeing her daughter alive that sustains her own life during the time while she was trapped in her statue-state.

Hawk 92

July 28th, 2003, 10:06 pm

No problem 00 Mars

The one thing I'd like to point out about the quotes is that if you look at them JKR always leaves a way for herself to get out of them. Espically if it involves the future of the stories.

Such as asking a question like do you think so? Then all she has to say is "I never said it wouldn't happen. I was asking you what you thought." Or the fact that there is no clear definition to what is going on or this tension which has several meanings. So I don't rule any ship, and I do stress any ship, out on the quotes alone.

Sorry fairydust but what's a low blow???

heychang

I don't recognize those shows but maybe these could help

X Files (Mulder/Scully)
Voltron (Keith & Allura)
Robotech (Rick/Lisa)

Cheers!

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 10:07 pm

Now, many think that this is where some other girl would step in, like Ginny. But then I think, what do we really know about Ginny? To be truthful, next to nothing. (the same can be said for Cho, interestingly enough) So unless the last two books are devoted almost solely on character development for her, I don't see this happening.

We now loads about Ginny! Just because Ginny has not been constantly like in your face kind of thing it doesn't mean that JKR has not let us know about her personality.

The only way he could find happiness is in death. Where his family will meet him.

I couldn't have disagree here more! I don't see why Harry *has* to die for this.

Prior to OotP, Ron and Hermione's fighting was considered to be the biggest support for the R/Hr ship. Then we see alot less of it in OotP itself, and that's good too? I'm confused. The fighting is a sign of their sexual tension, but there's alot less of it in OotP--doesn't it follow logic that the tension is gone as well?

I'm not a R/Hr fan so you'll need a R/Hr shipper to answer you that question. But the tension I see between them is romantic one. Some R/Hr may give you a better definition. I never consider the fighting one of the R/Hr strongest point. I always stated that their arguing was lack of maturity and that it will end up dissapearing as they grew up.

I also find it interesting that there was less pointless bickering between Ron and Hermione and more Harry-centric conversations between them taking place off-stage. Take Harry out of the equation and I wonder what Ron and Hermione would talk about.

Again I always expected that their bickering would go down in this book. And most of R/Hr arguments always start because of Harry. R/Hr sometimes act like Harry's parents. On the contrary I think that if you take Harry out of the equation you will have almost unexistant bickering.

OotP would have been a wonderful chance to develop a more interdependent relationship. A few times, Hermione attempted to enlist the support of Ron in her war with the Weasley twins, and even in her efforts to convince Harry on the DA. However, Rowling chose to show Ron shying away from backing her up, proving that Hermione even at this point cannot depend on him--even when she tries to.

Have a little faith! She has two books to go. I think that's what about to come. Hermione needs to appreciate a lot more Ron I agree but I think that they main reason that she acts so hostile around him is that she is very frustrated with his lack of movement on a romantic term. I have ALWAYS stated that R/Hr is one of the most time related relationships that an author can have.

Since we are on definition terms. Here is what I have on the definiton of Tension.

1.
a.The act or process of stretching something tight.
b.The condition of so being stretched; tautness.

2.
a.A force tending to stretch or elongate something.
b.A measure of such a force: a tension on the cable of 50 pounds.

3.
a.Mental, emotional, or nervous strain: working under great tension to make a deadline.
b.Barely controlled hostility or a strained relationship between people or groups: the dangerous tension between opposing military powers.
4. A balanced relation between strongly opposing elements: “the continuing, and essential, tension between two of the three branches of government, judicial and legislative” (Haynes Johnson).
5. The interplay of conflicting elements in a piece of literature, especially a poem.
6. A device for regulating tautness, especially a device that controls the tautness of thread on a sewing machine or loom.
7. Electricity. Voltage or potential; electromotive force.

I never even bother to look for a definiton but now that I look at it. Ron and Hermione do fit the tension type. Even on this R/Hr have romantic tension and JKR isn't lying when she says so.

Gily Ann

Fairydust

July 28th, 2003, 10:10 pm

this quote s a lowblow Hawk92:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by DumbledoreTheWise

As for all the H/Hr shippers.......I can only give words straight from Dumbledore's mouth.
"It does not do to dwell on dreams."
Because that's all H/Hr is, a dream.

Perdita

July 28th, 2003, 10:25 pm

I just want to add something:

noddwyd, you two posts on Harry and Ron are excellent!

I especially liked the parts where you discussed the implications and shortcomings of the focalized narrative stance and it's impact on shipping.

Good stuff, keep them coming.

:tu: for all the wonderful posts from all of my shipmates and non-H/Hr shippers.

BabyMars

July 28th, 2003, 10:26 pm

Alright people, let's get our act together. Many of us would not appreciate this thread getting shut down. Let's all be friendly debaters, shall we?

Agreed 00 Hawk. JKR is going to have a field day with all of the fans she did a mind job on. She'll just tell them, "The clues are there. Go back and you'll see them." And then she'll say, "I didn't ever lie, I just skirted questions and gave indirect answers, such as answering questions with questions, to avoid giving my plot away."

Ecthelion

July 28th, 2003, 10:32 pm

First of all, a lot of great points were brought to notice and exploited by my fellow shipmates. Great job :tu:

Between H/Hr perspective and JKR's perspective. I'll take hers thank you very much!. She is the one writting the series. She should now more than any of us. So I'm going to believe her when she says that she is truthfull, that she doesn't want to cheat her readers and when she says that H/Hr are 'very platonic friends'. And yes I know that I am . . . thanks!

Thing is, our perspective is pretty much straight forward, however you may want to avoid it. And secondly, JKR's perspective, though she is the author, is not as trustworthy as ours. And that's saying something considering she wrote the books. There is no way that her perspective is going to obviously shed light and point out certain points easily! There is going to be subterfuge, twists, and dramatic irony all put into her carefully worded statements. If anything, they should be considered, but not fully taken for granted. BabyMars has also proved this point dilligently :)

It's interesting that some H/Hr shippers- I forget who- say that the course of true love never runs smooth, and some others (yourself) say that Hermione and Harry don't have much work left to do, hence a smooth ride for the rest of the series.

I'd say it's going to be rougher than ever actually. Mainly because of one recent happening that hasn't directly hit Harry yet...Sirius' death. I expect that Lupin will help him on this one, but I feel as if it will be Hermione is going to be the one who pulls him through. That is definitely not going to be "smooth" to say the least.

Alright, had to comment on this...sorry.

As for all the H/Hr shippers.......I can only give words straight from Dumbledore's mouth.
"It does not do to dwell on dreams."
Because that's all H/Hr is, a dream.

That was totally unwarrented and unbased. :td:
Ok, I'm done now.

LOTR is better than HP. shhh... don't tell anyone I said that, or I'm dead meat.)

Careful Avada, your treading in dangerous waters there.... :lol: I also agree with you by the way, though HP isn't done yet, so we'll see....

*Hawk ignites his lightsaber (Qui Gon style of course) and prepares to take out the Teletubbies*

*Ecthelion earnestly agrees with Hawk and takes out a rather evil-looking pointy stick and silently files behind him :evil: *

evaluna

July 28th, 2003, 10:36 pm

original post by Perdita
My reply was:
Re: Leontes ll Ron or Harry?
At the beginning of the play, Leontes sounds very much like Ron. He's forward, somewhat vain, and later he jumps to the conclusion that Hermione committed adultery without having any substantial evidence. He also hires one of his ministers, Camillo, to help poison his best friend, Polixenes, to death.

Polixenes is very well mannered. I don't remember what he's like in the middle of the play, but and Hermione do get along very very well. That's why it made Leontes suspicious. Polixenes would listen to Hermione when he would not listen to Leontes.

It seems to me that Rowling has taken the traits from both male characters and switch them with the roles of HP. Instead of the rash Ron being the star of the story, it is the milder Harry who gets the spotlight.

I think that this is clever on her part because if she followed the play too closely, there would be too many links to her own characters and the relationships made too obvious.
-----
I agree with evaluna’s response to Avada and DD the Wise. At the ending of the play, Leontes and Hermione do reconcile, but one has to question what is the basis of their reconciliation? Because of Leontes’ rashness and jealousy, not to mention his lack of trust in the woman he is supposed to love, he is the one who almost killed her. He would have, had not Paulina stepped in and saved Hermione.

During the reunion, Hermione embraces Leontes, and that is what convinces him that she is actually alive. Then she turns to Perdita and not a word is spoken between Hermione and Leontes. One could argue that Hermione has not returned to Leontes at all. She has returned to him in person, but her spirit has retuned for her daughter. For the rest of the reunion, her attention is focussed on Perdita. Leontes admits his fault, but we don’t hear Hermione express her forgiveness. It is left up to the reader to surmise that perhaps she will forgive him, but it’s not expressed in words. One could also argue that she is only forgiving him for his fault so that her daughter can be raised properly as a princess so that she may marry her lover.

If Leontes is Ron, then things don’t look good for Hermione Granger.

*****
I just checked the text and in her speechat the end of the play, she says that it is the hope of seeing her daughter alive that sustains her own life during the time while she was trapped in her statue-state.

Perdita: Thank you for your wonderful comparative analysis of HP : The Winter's Tale. Particularly of Ron's partial but incomplete and potentially dangerous fit [for Hermione] with Leontes. And how Harry is more like Polixenes anyway, though in HP it's the Polixenes type who is the hero. The still waters running deep, as mentioned before.

Just a nod to noddwyd -- I see some poetic justice being wrought here by JKR [Thanks again, Perdita!], so maybe the good guy will win for himself as well as the world in HP...I'm still hoping to make something of an optimist out of you, I think...depends if you've got the stomach for it; it's a scary thing, hope, I won't lie... ;)

EDIT:
Original post by Avada Kedavra
It's interesting that some H/Hr shippers- I forget who- say that the course of true love never runs smooth, and some others (yourself) say that Hermione and Harry don't have much work left to do, hence a smooth ride for the rest of the series.

AK: just to clarify, sone amd I were initially discussing that quote regarding the amount of opposition and jealousy that Harry and Hermione have already encountered from others, despite that they aren't even yet officially together! We were not discussing it in terms of whether Harry and Hermoine personally have any major compatibility issues, as our ship has pretty thoroughly argued that this is not the case and that there is a solid foundation of mutual caring and respect and overcoming of differences in their relationship to date.

Hawk 92

July 28th, 2003, 10:41 pm

Quite right there GilyAnn

The tension that lead to the Hermione and Ron kiss was the tension between Ron and Draco. The tension between Gryffindor and Slytherin at Quiddich. There was tension there allright.

But I'll just say once again that there are many definitions to tension and no one stress no one has said romantic tension.

Cheers!

sone

July 28th, 2003, 11:11 pm

Yeah, there is tension between Ron and Hermione. There is a barely controlled hostility that has created a strained relationship between them.

You know there is another interruption by Ron in front of Harry and Hermione on Chapt. 09.

GilyAnn

July 28th, 2003, 11:15 pm

Thing is, our perspective is pretty much straight forward, however you may want to avoid it. And secondly, JKR's perspective, though she is the author, is not as trustworthy as ours. And that's saying something considering she wrote the books. There is no way that her perspective is going to obviously shed light and point out certain points easily! There is going to be subterfuge, twists, and dramatic irony all put into her carefully worded statements. If anything, they should be considered, but not fully taken for granted.

Again thank you very much, really. But I'll take JKR's words. So far her words has been good enough. So although I apreciate the offer and the explanation. I do no sarcasm meant on this. I'll still go with JKR words. I'll believe her, she write the books, she plots the books. The way I see it she has the one who is right and when she says something she'll know why she is saying it. So I'll take her words.

The tension that lead to the Hermione and Ron kiss was the tension between Ron and Draco. The tension between Gryffindor and Slytherin at Quiddich. There was tension there allright.
But I'll just say once again that there are many definitions to tension and no one stress no one has said romantic tension.

I said that it was romantic tension what R/Hr have. I said that I didn't know if what R/Hr shippers though the same but I though it was that. I clearly see romantic tension between R/Hr. Yes and R/Hr tension will be resolved at some point. The same way that it will the Ron and Draco one and the sly/gry. one. But I just think that perhaps like jkr said it will be on the 'fullness of time'.

Gily Ann

Hawk 92

July 28th, 2003, 11:26 pm

Again thank you very much, really. But I'll take JKR's words. So far her words has been good enough. So although I apreciate the offer and the explanation. I do no sarcasm meant on this. I'll still go with JKR words. I'll believe her, she write the books, she plots the books. The way I see it she has the one who is right and when she says something she'll know why she is saying it. So I'll take her words

So show me where JKR says "Romantic" tension? According to your own definitions tension can be anything from love to hate. So where does JKR say "romantic" tension?

Cheers!

Ellefire

July 28th, 2003, 11:49 pm

Hey I'd just like to give a big :tu: to all my fellow H/Hr shippers! Good job defending our fav couple.

I'd just like to ask a question, which migh hav already been discussed, how do you think Hermione took Ron's Christmas present of perfume? Hermione seemed no to have liked it. She also seemed not to take it as a sign that Ron likes her. She seemed to like Harry's gift much better.

It also makes me think that this is also a sign of how much Harry cares about Hermione. He couldn't have chosen that book that Hermione had wanted for ages on pure guess.

Anyway, sorry again if this has already been discussed. For my sanity I havn't read every page in this thread.

~Elle

lleyki

July 29th, 2003, 12:03 am

Okay so apparently Hermione shows more warmth and concern for Ron than Harry. Uh-huh. I'm going to show by using examples from ALL the books why I have YET to see this. I'm doing this by memory; so if I've missed anything my fellow shipmates are free to add to it.

PS/SS
I think the best place to start is the ending when they all go to save the stone. Yes I know many R/Hr shippers are rolling their eyes right now, thinking "oh great she's going to talk about Harry and Hermione leaving Ron behind" and you'll be absolutely right. I know many R/Hr shippers will also say that Hermione had to follow Harry for plot reasons, because he would not have been able to get past the Potions test without her. Fair enough. What I want to emphasize though is Hermione's two reactions to Ron and Harry. When Ron fell she screamed (like any normal 11yr old would). However she NEVER lost her composure and waited for Harry's next move and simply followed him. She only allowed for a mere second of asking Harry if he was sure Ron was okay. (Btw, as much as I love Harry and Hermione, that was a little cold to not even check the boy's pulse. Oh well.) Now let's consider Hermione's reaction when she has to leave Harry. She DID NOT want to go, she simply had NO choice. Before someone says that wasn't stated in the book, look at Harry's conversation when he's telling Hermione to leave. He has to interrupt what he's saying to say "No-listen". Now basic English would show that if Hermione had been agreeing with him this statement would make no sense. She didn't want to go and after he convinces her to leave, she flings herself into his arms and proceeds to tell him how great he is and even then he has to forcibly tell her to leave. Now someone can argue that Harry was about to face his death but that doesn't work because there was no way the two of them were sure that Ron hadn't just faced his. Yet RON is the one she cares for and shows more warmth for? The boy who couldn't even get a simple pulse-check? Okay whatever floats your boat.

Now let's flash forward to the hospital scene. Hermione has to literally restrain herself from flying onto Harry AGAIN. Now while we didn't see Hermione's reaction after she left Harry, by her accounts she seemed more than a little irritated with the fact that it wasn't exactly easy to revive Ron. The fact is the above scene where they went to save the stone was a very good opportunity to show the great future romance that would be Ron and Hermione. It DID NOT. Both boys were about to face very dangerous, possibly life-threatening situations and we saw Hermione's reaction to both and I failed to see more concern for Ron.

COS
Hermione's letter to Ron. Now let's be honest here. Hermione had good reasons to be as frantic as she was. They hadn't heard anything from Harry all summer. However there was just WAY too much pre-occupation with Harry. She references Ron and them doing anything illegal, not because she is so concerned for them but simply that it would get Harry in trouble too. Hermione's anxiety and stress over Harry is practically screaming off her letter.

I see someone mentioned about the howler and Hermione's reaction. I agree completely. Okay, taking that flying car was pretty dumb; but the boy had just been embarrassed in front of the WHOLE school; a little sympathy much? Yet this is the boy this girl has so many strong feelings for. Uh-huh.

Okay the ending of the book. Everything is back to normal and everything is okay. Hermione runs to Harry screaming "you did it, you did it". Considering just the year before they'd all help to rescue the stone with him, it is interesting that she just assumed he figured it all out own his own. Also we see NO interaction between Ron and Hermione here. You would think a simple hug could have been shared considering that Hermione had been petrified and it was Ron's sister that had been taken. I mean this is the boy she likes and he's just been through quite an ordeal, yet we don't even see her asking "are you okay." Again nothing on Hermione's part. Yet she has more warmth and concern for Ron than Harry. Okay.

P O A
Ah my favorite scenes. First let us look at Hermione's reaction when Harry fell off his broomstick. Her eyes were bloodshot and the first words we hear from her aren't even words but a squeak. The girl was clearly shaken up and this was well after she knew Harry was fine. Now let's look at when Ron was attacked by Sirius. Hermione did not say ONE word to Ron. This is one of your BEST FRIENDS and he's just been attacked by a notoriously dangerous criminal. You can't even muster up a simple "are you okay, Ron?" Now I'm sorry but this does not show me warmth or concern here. Yes we find out later from Hagrid that apparently she cried about it but we also know from Hagrid that Hermione was crying about EVERYTHING. Her work load, the fight over the Firebolt, the fight with Ron about Scabbers, etc. My point is, here's the boy you have these great feelings for and he's just been attacked and pride over not speaking to him was more important and this is the supposed warm, beautiful romance? Right.

When Ron is dragged into the Whomping Willow by Sirius; Harry has to convince Hermione that there's no time to go for help. She is hesitant, scared and only follows when she has no choice and Harry was going to go with or without her. Now let's compare this to when Harry runs into the Forbidden Forest to rescue Sirius. Hermione never hesitates and immediately goes chasing after Harry. Once again they're off and leaving poor injured Ron to fend for himself. I would like to also point out that Hermione once again never even checked on Ron. She stood behind Harry and asked HIM what Pettigrew had done to Ron. Yeah I'm feeling the love for Ron by Hermione here.

G O F
Okay Hermione's behavior during Ron and Harry's fight. She DID NOT take sides (smart girl). She spent according to the text, time trying to get both of them to bend. However most of the time that we see of her, she is with Harry, so I'm REALLY confused as to the point in which she was being more considerate to Ron and showing him more warmth. Hermione was the thing that kept Harry mildly sane during this time. She provided support, friendship, intelligence for his task, loyalty, etc. I failed to see when and how Hermione was being more concerned for Ron when she was being everything to Harry at this point. One wonders where she would have gotten all the time.

Along with this there are other moments of Hermione's warmth towards Harry. I'll refer to her reaction after the Lake Task. Again, like I've said before, Hermione has a way of acting like Harry has just accomplished the MOST amazing feats. The girl's joy and pride over Harry is absolutely amazing. Then there's the moment when she comes to show him Dobby. The girl ran up SIX flights of stairs and didn't lose a bit of her excitement. She acted like Christmas had come early and was TOO excited to even tell Harry what she had to show him. All that because Dobby was at Hogwarts. That to me is warmth, and those are the things I see as beautiful.

Now let's look at Hermione's reaction to Ron's ONE major gripe in the book; that of course of him poor. When Ron says he hates being poor, Hermione tries to make a joke but it's lack-luster and she looks to Harry who looks back as helplessly as her. The scene is awkward and uncomfortable. I see very little comfort for Ron on Hermione's part here.

O O T P
Okay the first time Hermione sees Harry, she hugs him. Not too surprising. She holds on to him for awhile, again that wasn't that surprising. However, Hermione is referred to as breathless in this scene. Wow. All that from seeing Harry? I mean it had only been a month and they knew he was fine since they were talking to him all the time; yet the girl is so excited she is literally out of breath, giving him an earth shattering hug. One wonders what she'd do if she was his girlfriend.

Okay the famous prefect scene. Alright let's be fair to Hermione. No one expected Ron to be a prefect, not even his own family (probably cause he didn't deserve it but I digress) so we won't make SUCH a big deal about her initial shock. However it's her reaction following her initial shock that kills this for Ron. You know the entire scene could have taken a whole different feel if JK had written it slightly differently. For example, consider that after Harry tells Hermione it's Ron's badge, not his and she says "Ron?" in that questioning tone; that the scene was written with her then saying "Oh my god, Ron! I'm so happy for you." See how automatically the whole feel of the scene changes. Yes we'd have Hermione initially surprised but that would be immediately followed by her obvious joy and pride. That is NOT what JK showed us. After Hermione's initial surprise she compounds the embarrassment by asking Harry if he was sure then trying to make it up by saying how Ron had done MANY things for the school but couldn't seem to remember ANY of those many things herself. Plain and simple Hermione in that scene showed emotions of shock, disappointment and embarrassment. Period, and none of it was showing romantic anything for Ron.

The Christmas presents. Again, a few word changes and JK could have changed the entire feel of the scene if she is SO promoting R/Hr like so many of those shippers believe. She DID NOT. Hermione expressed extreme pleasure by Harry's gift and judging by her use of "unusual" all I got was confusion for Ron's gift or hate and her tactfully trying not to say it. Btw, for all the persons who have said how Ron understands Hermione so much and pays so much attention to her; why then would he give her perfume of ALL things? What did he just completely miss the way the girl's face literally lit up when she saw all the books in the Room of Requirement? She's a book-worm, it's what she loves. Some R/Hr shippers can argue all they want of how Harry didn't put much thought into the gift because it's so obvious that she'd like it but the fact is he got it right and Ron didn't. Buying presents isn't about you the buyer; but the person you're giving the gift to. It's knowing what THAT person would like, not what would make you look good. The fact is no matter how much time Harry did or did not spend on that gift (of which we'll never know) the truth is he knew who Hermione was well enough to get her the perfect gift. Kind of like Hermione getting him the perfect gift in POA. Hmm, interesting, for two people who don't understand each other AT ALL.

THE QUIDDITCH MATCHES
Let's look at Hermione's reactions to Harry's wins. The girl's excitement again is literally infectious. Again one wonders what she'd do if she actually was his girlfriend. Now let's keep in mind that again this is a sport that she's not even THAT crazy about. Btw, does anyone else find it odd that apparently Quidditch became so silly to Hermione once Harry was off the team. Not really saying anything concrete, just thought that was interesting. Now let's look at Hermione's reaction after Ron's dismal first game. She was pretty sweet when she told him to come by the fire. However once Ron starts feeling sorry for himself, we see Harry too irritated with his own problems to be too sensitive and what does Hermione do? She gets up and walks to the window, giving the sense of wanting to avoid the whole conversation. Now okay she likes this boy, she shows more warmth and concern for him; well here's a great in. He's beating down on himself, a simple "Ron it'll get better or you did your best" something to make the poor boy feel better, No matter how much of a lie it would be. Nothing. Instead she goes to the window leaving Ron to his whining and Harry to be generally pissed off at the whole world.

Hermione came to see Harry play when she wasn't even speaking to him and acted like he was silly to even ask her if she had come to see him. So she can come to see him when she's mad at him, for a game she's not even crazy about yet the biggest and scariest moment of Ron's life; she leaves to go see Hagrid's big secret. This might not all be so bad if she had at least asked if it could wait until the game was over or something. No, interestingly HARRY is the one who asks these questions. Hermione NEVER shows ANY hesitation about leaving. Come on, this is the guy you're crazy about and he is dying out there. He can use the support. Yet you LEAVE and for something she doesn't even know what it is. People I'm trying to feel the love here but it ain't happening. These are NOT the actions of a girl who according to some is trying to get this boy to realize his feelings for her and that she has feelings for him. It isn't and I have yet to see the great concern and interest Hermione shows for Ron over Harry. Seriously someone's going to have to direct me to those signs cause I completely missed them.

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 12:04 am

The Christmas present? I think Hermione just phrased it as "unusual" because she didn't like it but didn't want to insult him. She already knows he likes her, from the Yule Brawl. What i'm more interested in is if Ron will follow the 3 book crush patter, or will there be a fallout over Hermione when he's aware of Hermione's feelings for Harry.

EDIT: lleyki, fantastic as always! Many :tu: to you! :tu:

sone

July 29th, 2003, 12:09 am

Ellefire, welcome to the board.....in any case, it has been discussed a little bit, but it really has not been "reviewed" as thoroughly as some of the other material.

In any case, it was obvious that she did like Harry's present much more.

Ellefire

July 29th, 2003, 12:13 am

Yes, that's what I'm worried about also. Ron's crush is heading nowhere and what's more is he knows it too. There have already been discussions about this of course.

I do beleive and hope Ron will move on and find someone who will love him. But for now he seems a bit itimadated by Harry and Hermione's growing closeness as was displayed on the train by his attempt to promote a H/G relationship.

O and noddwyd, your post are amazing by the way. Very unbiast and professionally written. Great work.

~Elle

sone

July 29th, 2003, 12:38 am

lleyki, incredible, well thought out post as always and I have to say I know exactly what you mean. I am not seeing where she cares more for Ron than Harry anymore than you are. Just one very little point I like to make. Hermione's eyes were extremely bloodshot in the hospital swing after Harry fell off his broom. Either she had been crying very recently or very hard or both.

BabyMars

July 29th, 2003, 12:47 am

Great post lleyki! You always know the right thing to say! Cheers to you! :D

DumbledoreTheWise

July 29th, 2003, 2:18 am

I know the Dumbledore thing was a low blow.......I kind of had a little 'angry Harry' episode after a ridiculously bad day. :shrug:
Sorry about that! But it was bad, just trust me on that.

<<<Thinking happy thoughts :tu:

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 4:24 am

It is interesting that Hermione reacted positively to Harry's gift, and just said that Ron's gift was "unusual". Perfume could be a pretty straightforward way of showing romantic feelings (though I've given my mum perfume before...hmm...), and Hermione probably knows this, so she won't react to positively to Rons gift in case he thoght it we be a confirmation that she has feelings too.

And Ilyeki, my jaw have been dropping so much that I think it has finally managed to detach itself from my skull. Have some of these :tu: :tu: :tu:

Turambar

July 29th, 2003, 4:26 am

Great post as usual lleyki.
I also think it's significant that Hermione didn't show much concern or sympathy for Ron when he broke his leg in POA.
When Harry and Hermione first got in to the Shrieking Shack they asked how he was but then it's a full 9 pages before Hermione says anything to Ron. And what does she say? "Shhh" when he tries to say something.
There was plenty of time and some calmer periods within a generally tense situation before they leave the shack for Hermione to check on the leg.
JKR managed to write a couple of paragraphs about Ron being in great pain and Sirius and Lupin showing concern for him.
I mean for those who would use the excuse that they were too caught up in the difficult situation to focus on Ron just a little bit, why is it that Sirius and Lupin can be shown to be worried about Ron's pain and not his future intended?
There's even a bit where Ron overbalances at it's Harry who catches him and sets him on the bed, I mean why not have Hermione catch Ron's arm and help him to sit down? Why not just write in ONE LINE saying something like "'Ron, don't move, you'll just make it worse,' Hermione said anxiously." Even that would seem totally inadequate really.
Harry and Hermione seem to get quite caught up in each other during these intense adventures. Going on together with the adventures in PS and POA after Ron is knocked out as lleyki described. And for instance in POA Hermione reacts extremely intensely towards Lupin because she's worried that the fact she didn't spill the beans about him being a werewolf has put Harry in danger.
Basically IMO JKR has written so many scenes in this way because she wants to show a difference in the level of Hermione's emotions over Harry and Ron. She wanted Hermione's relationship with Harry to be closer than her relationship with Ron. She wanted Hermione to be more interested in Harry than Ron. She wanted the gradual romantic buildup to be between Harry and Hermione. That's the only conclusion I can come to. If she does still plan to go R/Hr she could have saved herself from any likely accusations of it being contrived, clumsy, confusing and a cop-out by writing dozens of scenes in quite different ways to how she has written them.
Personally I think the main shipping mystery has shifted somewhat.
When we were discussing GOF the key mystery was Hermione's feelings. Now I think it is more whether Harry will return them to the same extent.

Mega

July 29th, 2003, 7:22 am

I can't remember Harry giving Hermione a book and Ron giving her perfume. Doe's this happen in OotP? Can someone tell me what chapter (and page if you could) this happens? Either it's missing from my book or I'm being extremly forgetful.

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 7:28 am

I don't mind Turambar.

Great post by lleyki and noddwyd and Perdita. :tu: :)

Now I thought again like always and I'm now by Lily and James. I know you might groan now but this one is different. I show you how interest the point is that L/J are oposite to H/Hr.

First Harry is a person who is not big headed and know perfectly how people feel if they are treated like Snape by his own father. Harry is very much the oposite of James. That dos implied even the situation where Harry dos live.

Harry is famous but he don't like it. James did like it to be popular. James dos already like Lily in his 5th year. He is his feelings very aware and act after them. Lily was never his friend. She didn't even like James first but somehow did fall in love with him because he did change for her.

Now to Harry if I say he is oposite of James than might be Harrys live or better his love even oposite to James. Even Harrys friends are oposite to that. Sirius was a pureblood wizard and his parents dark wizards. Ron is pureblood but his parents are very much good wizards.Its not Ron who gos to Harrys home its Harry who gos to Rons home.

Oposite to James love life means that this girl which Harry will fall for might be his friend by now and Harry isn't aware of his feelings that implied Hermione.

About JKR and her writing. Well, let see it straight if I were her I did it the exact same way. Look if you already by the first page you did wrote know that H/Hr will happen no matter what and you are the author I bet you think : Wait, thats boring. I just can't already say that H/hr will happen its like I write at the first page say Harry win over Voldemort. So what do you do? You has two male and one female, wait two females. Now you think make it difficult in the background you give H/hr a foundament and on the other hand you give Ron, Harrys best friend, some feelings or a crush at Hermione. But than you think what is with Harry? Good there we go Ginny has since COS a crush at him and Harry is interest in Cho. Perfect, no not perfect Hermione is left she get Krum. Yeah now we have everything right.

Now we get OotP. After this is it like that: H is alone. HR is alone, R--->Hr. G--->H maybe still. N--->G possible, L--->R.
And in all interviews if someone ask about H/Hr I give not straight answers I go straight to R/Hr what I implied since GoF but the problem is I never said Hermione likes Ron and I never state Hermione don't like Harry. Now after OotP everything is that way that I can without much problems bring H/Hr at least together.

EDIT: Mega: chapter 23: Christmas on the closed ward: Page 444 UK-edition

viktorija_hp

July 29th, 2003, 7:32 am

that in OOTP, chapter 23, page 444, british version

sone

July 29th, 2003, 9:11 am

I am groaning FP, since I do not like drawing parallels between Lily/James and the current trio but still excellent points that you brought up.

eXistenZ

July 29th, 2003, 9:31 am

I'm quite comfident Grawp will fall in love with Professor Dumbledore, or rather Dumbledore with Grawp. They are made fore each other. Like a hand in a glowe...
Does anyone else feel this way`?

sone

July 29th, 2003, 9:53 am

Actually I think Grawp likes Hermione. :)

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 9:55 am

So show me where JKR says "Romantic" tension? According to your own definitions tension can be anything from love to hate. So where does JKR say "romantic" tension?

Again read my post. I said "I". Thinking that Ron and Hermione have hate tension is far for me. I classified as a Romantic tension.

I think the best place to start is the ending when they all go to save the stone. Yes I know many R/Hr shippers are rolling their eyes right now, thinking "oh great she's going to talk about Harry and Hermione leaving Ron behind" and you'll be absolutely right. I know many R/Hr shippers will also say that Hermione had to follow Harry for plot reasons, because he would not have been able to get past the Potions test without her. Fair enough. What I want to emphasize though is Hermione's two reactions to Ron and Harry. When Ron fell she screamed (like any normal 11yr old would). However she NEVER lost her composure and waited for Harry's next move and simply followed him. She only allowed for a mere second of asking Harry if he was sure Ron was okay. (Btw, as much as I love Harry and Hermione, that was a little cold to not even check the boy's pulse. Oh well.) Now let's consider Hermione's reaction when she has to leave Harry. She DID NOT want to go, she simply had NO choice. Before someone says that wasn't stated in the book, look at Harry's conversation when he's telling Hermione to leave. He has to interrupt what he's saying to say "No-listen". Now basic English would show that if Hermione had been agreeing with him this statement would make no sense. She didn't want to go and after he convinces her to leave, she flings herself into his arms and proceeds to tell him how great he is and even then he has to forcibly tell her to leave. Now someone can argue that Harry was about to face his death but that doesn't work because there was no way the two of them were sure that Ron hadn't just faced his. Yet RON is the one she cares for and shows more warmth for? The boy who couldn't even get a simple pulse-check? Okay whatever floats your boat.

Harry is the hero here not Ron. I don't see why this is consider romantic when they are 11 and Harry is about to probably face death(yes I'm going to use it!). Ron sacrificied himself for that. Wasting time by going back would have made Ron's efforts worthless. I don't think that JKR was thinking Romance at this point. Harry reassures Hermione that Ron is ok. She was worried about him. But there is some work left to be done and going back would have even made the completly effortless.

Hermione's letter to Ron. Now let's be honest here. Hermione had good reasons to be as frantic as she was. They hadn't heard anything from Harry all summer. However there was just WAY too much pre-occupation with Harry. She references Ron and them doing anything illegal, not because she is so concerned for them but simply that it would get Harry in trouble too. Hermione's anxiety and stress over Harry is practically screaming off her letter.

How does this relate to romance? She has been in contact with Ron and not with Harry. Harry has not answer any of the letters as friend why shouldn't she be worried? The main reason for her concern it's because if Ron would have done something ilegal Harry would have gotten into trouble too and he is already in trouble for the 'magic' that Dobby did. Again the one with the worst standing here is Harry not Ron.

Okay the ending of the book. Everything is back to normal and everything is okay. Hermione runs to Harry screaming "you did it, you did it". Considering just the year before they'd all help to rescue the stone with him, it is interesting that she just assumed he figured it all out own his own. Also we see NO interaction between Ron and Hermione here. You would think a simple hug could have been shared considering that Hermione had been petrified and it was Ron's sister that had been taken. I mean this is the boy she likes and he's just been through quite an ordeal, yet we don't even see her asking "are you okay." Again nothing on Hermione's part. Yet she has more warmth and concern for Ron than Harry. Okay.

In the book Harry mentions Hermione in a series of events during the Howgarts feast. For the sake of nitpicking you can say that yet if Harry was suppossed to be with Hermione he showed little apreciation. Since Justine, Hagrid and the points were consider among the events.

Ah my favorite scenes. First let us look at Hermione's reaction when Harry fell off his broomstick. Her eyes were bloodshot and the first words we hear from her aren't even words but a squeak. The girl was clearly shaken up and this was well after she knew Harry was fine.

And Ron and her were looking like they had climbed out of swimming pool, Fred was looking extremelly white, Alicia was shaking. Watching one of your best friends fall from 50 feet will make anyone squeak.

Now let's look at when Ron was attacked by Sirius. Hermione did not say ONE word to Ron. This is one of your BEST FRIENDS and he's just been attacked by a notoriously dangerous criminal. You can't even muster up a simple "are you okay, Ron?" Now I'm sorry but this does not show me warmth or concern here. Yes we find out later from Hagrid that apparently she cried about it but we also know from Hagrid that Hermione was crying about EVERYTHING. Her work load, the fight over the Firebolt, the fight with Ron about Scabbers, etc. My point is, here's the boy you have these great feelings for and he's just been attacked and pride over not speaking to him was more important and this is the supposed warm, beautiful romance? Right.

Wasn't this during the time that there was the mess on the cat and rat? If I remember correctly when Ron didn't speak to Hermione neither did Harry. Also Hagrid was clear that she 'was really upset, she was when Black neary stabbed yeh, Ron." So Hermione had been really upset when Black almost stabbed Ron her work load added up to the pressure but she was upset because of Ron.

When Ron is dragged into the Whomping Willow by Sirius; Harry has to convince Hermione that there's no time to go for help. She is hesitant, scared and only follows when she has no choice and Harry was going to go with or without her. Now let's compare this to when Harry runs into the Forbidden Forest to rescue Sirius. Hermione never hesitates and immediately goes chasing after Harry. Once again they're off and leaving poor injured Ron to fend for himself. I would like to also point out that Hermione once again never even checked on Ron. She stood behind Harry and asked HIM what Pettigrew had done to Ron. Yeah I'm feeling the love for Ron by Hermione here.

Yes I feel it too. Because Hermione was so histerical that she was 'dancing uncertainly on the spot.' A big whopping willow the most sense thing to do was to go to a teacher. Even Sirius is gratefull that they didn't do it.

Okay Hermione's behavior during Ron and Harry's fight. She DID NOT take sides (smart girl). She spent according to the text, time trying to get both of them to bend. However most of the time that we see of her, she is with Harry, so I'm REALLY confused as to the point in which she was being more considerate to Ron and showing him more warmth. Hermione was the thing that kept Harry mildly sane during this time. She provided support, friendship, intelligence for his task, loyalty, etc. I failed to see when and how Hermione was being more concerned for Ron when she was being everything to Harry at this point. One wonders where she would have gotten all the time.
Along with this there are other moments of Hermione's warmth towards Harry. I'll refer to her reaction after the Lake Task. Again, like I've said before, Hermione has a way of acting like Harry has just accomplished the MOST amazing feats. The girl's joy and pride over Harry is absolutely amazing. Then there's the moment when she comes to show him Dobby. The girl ran up SIX flights of stairs and didn't lose a bit of her excitement. She acted like Christmas had come early and was TOO excited to even tell Harry what she had to show him. All that because Dobby was at Hogwarts. That to me is warmth, and those are the things I see as beautiful.

Now let's look at Hermione's reaction to Ron's ONE major gripe in the book; that of course of him poor. When Ron says he hates being poor, Hermione tries to make a joke but it's lack-luster and she looks to Harry who looks back as helplessly as her. The scene is awkward and uncomfortable. I see very little comfort for Ron on Hermione's part here. .

Agree to disagree because even though Hermione behaved like a true friend the feelings that she understood were Ron's not Harry's. Also unless Hermione is willing to give some cash to Ron there is really nothing she can do exept feel hopeless and hope for the best.

Okay the first time Hermione sees Harry, she hugs him. Not too surprising. She holds on to him for awhile, again that wasn't that surprising. However, Hermione is referred to as breathless in this scene. Wow. All that from seeing Harry? I mean it had only been a month and they knew he was fine since they were talking to him all the time; yet the girl is so excited she is literally out of breath, giving him an earth shattering hug. One wonders what she'd do if she was his girlfriend.

Well Harry wasn't exactly in such great standings. Was he? They had not been able to give him any news, she had FELT how angry he was and to be make matters worst Harry was risking expulsion. I would have been frantic, this is her best friend.

Okay the famous prefect scene. Alright let's be fair to Hermione. No one expected Ron to be a prefect, not even his own family (probably cause he didn't deserve it but I digress) so we won't make SUCH a big deal about her initial shock. However it's her reaction following her initial shock that kills this for Ron. You know the entire scene could have taken a whole different feel if JK had written it slightly differently. For example, consider that after Harry tells Hermione it's Ron's badge, not his and she says "Ron?" in that questioning tone; that the scene was written with her then saying "Oh my god, Ron! I'm so happy for you." See how automatically the whole feel of the scene changes. Yes we'd have Hermione initially surprised but that would be immediately followed by her obvious joy and pride. That is NOT what JK showed us. After Hermione's initial surprise she compounds the embarrassment by asking Harry if he was sure then trying to make it up by saying how Ron had done MANY things for the school but couldn't seem to remember ANY of those many things herself. Plain and simple Hermione in that scene showed emotions of shock, disappointment and embarrassment. Period, and none of it was showing romantic anything for Ron.

Hermione comes in exited about her own prefect badge. She is never expecting that Ron was the prefect (I though he was a better choice than Harry to be honest) and as everyone else she is astonish. Her embarassment and defense for Ron tells a lot about her caring for Ron. With such big embarassment is not a wonder she can't find words.

The Christmas presents. Again, a few word changes and JK could have changed the entire feel of the scene if she is SO promoting R/Hr like so many of those shippers believe. She DID NOT. Hermione expressed extreme pleasure by Harry's gift and judging by her use of "unusual" all I got was confusion for Ron's gift or hate and her tactfully trying not to say it. Btw, for all the persons who have said how Ron understands Hermione so much and pays so much attention to her; why then would he give her perfume of ALL things? What did he just completely miss the way the girl's face literally lit up when she saw all the books in the Room of Requirement? She's a book-worm, it's what she loves. Some R/Hr shippers can argue all they want of how Harry didn't put much thought into the gift because it's so obvious that she'd like it but the fact is he got it right and Ron didn't. Buying presents isn't about you the buyer; but the person you're giving the gift to. It's knowing what THAT person would like, not what would make you look good. The fact is no matter how much time Harry did or did not spend on that gift (of which we'll never know) the truth is he knew who Hermione was well enough to get her the perfect gift. Kind of like Hermione getting him the perfect gift in POA. Hmm, interesting, for two people who don't understand each other AT ALL.

It is perfectly understanble that Harry's gift is more likeable than Ron's. Harry bought her a book something that he knows she would like. Ron on the other hand bought her perfume. Ron's gift means that he may have started to realize feelings (finally!) and as a soon to be boyfriend he get's awkard gifts in the attempt to impress his future girlfriend. Harry on the other hand does not need to impress Hermione simply because he isn't interested in impressing her with his gift. Problem was that since Ron is wavy and is on a trial and error stake his fits may be unsual ones until he gets the hang of it.

Let's look at Hermione's reactions to Harry's wins. The girl's excitement again is literally infectious. Again one wonders what she'd do if she actually was his girlfriend. Now let's keep in mind that again this is a sport that she's not even THAT crazy about. Btw, does anyone else find it odd that apparently Quidditch became so silly to Hermione once Harry was off the team. Not really saying anything concrete, just thought that was interesting. Now let's look at Hermione's reaction after Ron's dismal first game. She was pretty sweet when she told him to come by the fire. However once Ron starts feeling sorry for himself, we see Harry too irritated with his own problems to be too sensitive and what does Hermione do? She gets up and walks to the window, giving the sense of wanting to avoid the whole conversation. Now okay she likes this boy, she shows more warmth and concern for him; well here's a great in. He's beating down on himself, a simple "Ron it'll get better or you did your best" something to make the poor boy feel better, No matter how much of a lie it would be. Nothing. Instead she goes to the window leaving Ron to his whining and Harry to be generally pissed off at the whole world.

Well the thing about walking to the window was that this is when Hagrid comes back. It was what cheer up Harry and Ron. Also the game has always been not that interesting to Hermione. I don't see any conection between one thing and the other. One could also say that she lost interest because she couldn't sit with Ron on the Quidditch matches.

Gily Ann

Ecthelion

July 29th, 2003, 10:01 am

I'd just like to ask a question, which migh hav already been discussed, how do you think Hermione took Ron's Christmas present of perfume? Hermione seemed no to have liked it. She also seemed not to take it as a sign that Ron likes her. She seemed to like Harry's gift much better.

It also makes me think that this is also a sign of how much Harry cares about Hermione. He couldn't have chosen that book that Hermione had wanted for ages on pure guess.

You know, this present of Ron's also makes me think about something else. If the perfume truly was a gift saying that he like her, wouldn't this be a highly emotional moment for Ron? Yet, as we all know, emotion moments for ron are highly emphasized by some sign of visible distress. Yet, when he gives perfume, the alleged "hello, I like you" gift, he merely conceeds with Hermione's curt comment and changes the subject of discussion quickly without any sign of being uncomfortable! That isn't characteristic of Ron. If he really was giving perfume to say that he likes her, he would have been blushing or mumbling his replies....yet he does no such thing. Strange.

First Harry is a person who is not big headed and know perfectly how people feel if they are treated like Snape by his own father. Harry is very much the oposite of James. That dos implied even the situation where Harry dos live.

Actually, it is my firm believe that Harry would have been exactly like James as we saw him in the pensive. Would have been. Except the fact that he has no parents, had horrible relatives, been teased by kids, has to relive his parents' death repeatedly through dementors, saw a close compatriot die, and has to kill or be killed by the most feared wizard of all time...that's going to have a detrimental affect on his whole disposition to say the least. It also, at the same time, humbles the inherantly cocky attitude that would have come out had it not been for his violent and pressured backround. I think that at times that attitude surfaces, mainly when he is provoked in little gibes and smart remarks that considering his personality, should not have been retaliated at at all. For what he has gone through, Harry I think is quite like James was in his seventh year. Except through his experiences, Harry is a couple years ahead of him.

ALSO: Great posts Everyone, especially lleyki, noddwyd, perdita, flyingphoenix, and evaluna. Great job :tu:

ALSO#2: DumbledoretheWise, it's nice to see you back on track :agree:

Buckbeak

July 29th, 2003, 10:10 am

It all comes down to this, if you were Hermione and you had your pick out of two boys, which one would it be.

Ron, the crazy funny guy, whose main thrill of the day would be insult everything you do.
or
Harry, the guy who would be willing to risk his life to save you no matter what.
hmmmm its a tough choice.

Which one will it be?

(Oh hurry up Hermione! the suspence is killing me!)

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 10:33 am

Ilyeki, incredible post! Yeah…what she said! Turambar, great followup re: PoA closing scenes.
Echthelion, FP, great character analyses. Echthelion, I agree with a lot of what you said re: Harry's character but also think Lily also had something to do with Harry's goodness, at least symbolically.

Original post by Ilyeki

Btw, does anyone else find it odd that apparently Quidditch became so silly to Hermione once Harry was off the team.

Errr..yeah…I did notice that and I agree that it is a dramatic turnaround! Very telling.
At a glance, I couldn't find the exact sources I was looking for re: the moon/Cancer and the Gateway of Souls, but I found some other relevant stuff. I'll post more on the Gateway of Souls later. Below is just an intro to the subject, not an exhaustive review. Plenty more room for input & comment. We've ONLY just gotten started on this :)
Cheers!

Gateway and Arch as Liminal Archetypes: Separating Life and Death, Symbolising Transition and Rebirth, Entrance to Holy of Holies

http://astrology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.umich.edu%2F%7Eumfandsf%2Fsymbolismproject%2Fsymbolism.html%2F
The gate is an entryway into an unknown place, or a place of great significance; it is a threshold, and may connect the living and the dead. They are normally guarded by symbolic animals: the LION, DRAGON, BULL, and DOG are often depicted in conjunction with the gate. In many cultures, passing through a gateway signifies a right of passage. It can be the function of a door between life and death - gates of Heaven. Justice, mercy, praise and righteousness are also related symbols. Combinations with other words: open gate - hospitality, peace; closed - expulsion (Paradise), inhospitality, misery, war; dark - often an entrance to the Underworld; of the sun - between Cancer and Capricorn, tropics; without gate - suffering.

http://astrology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.umich.edu%2F%7Eumfandsf%2Fsymbolismproject%2Fsymbolism.html%2F
The arch can be construed as the vault of the SKY. Various cultures link the arch to victory; Rome and France (L'arc de Triomphe) being two of the most prominent. Passing through an arch is the symbolic act of rebirth, of leaving the old behind and entering the new. They often mark access into holy places. Adopted by the Muslims as an emblem of faith. It also has a link to heaven, sanctuary and a secret place.

The Zohar

http://astrology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ritmanlibrary.nl%2Findex.html
[Sefer ha-Zohar. Cremona, Vicenzo Conti, 1559-60
Second edition (editio princeps Mantua 1558) of this pseudepigraphical seminal
work of the Spanish Kabbalah, centred around the second-century R. Simeon bar Jochai but produced by the Castilian kabbalist R. Moses de Leon (1240-1305) and his circle as argued by Yehuda Liebes (Studies in the Zohar, 1993). It was already commented on within a decade of its first circulation and has remained the standard kabbalistic text. According to the colophon, the imprimatur was already given in 1558, the year of the first edition of the Zohar - in fact both editions were printed almost simultaneously.

The Zohar, or the Book of Splendour, is the seminal Kabbalistic work. Kabbalah is a medieval and modern system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy [miracle working] marked by belief in creation through emanation [essentially, the act of continual creation of the universe by God, and simultaneously by we on earth doing the same -- best conceived by us as in [b]noddwyd's[/b] sig, 'with our thoughts we make the world'] and various mystical methods interpreting Scripture.

The Zohar discusses the metaphysical relationship between God and humankind, and the mystical ways in which this esoteric knowledge can be obtained. Note original author's name. Is it a stretch here? Rabbi Moses from the city of Leon, city of the lions [~Leo]. The original Moses being both Egyptian and Jew, raised a prince but born of slaves, an outsider in both. I hope Harry's not wholly akin to Moses in every aspect, as Moses was never able to reach "the promised land" - but who knows, perhaps for Harry, the promised land lies beyond the veiled arch, and he has to endure in on this earth, the world of the living, till the end of his natural days…Re: Wiesel's view that death is hardest on the survivors and that perhaps it's having to endure in this world after the death of those you love that Dumbledore is referring to as one of those things worse than death. But okay, I'll turn this over to a biblical scholar at this point…Main point being that IMO Harry must realise that he commands his own destiny, despite his obligation to the world, and that he can change the world with this power, the power of love and emanation.

Hermetics, Gnosticism and Kabbalah

http://astrology.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ritmanlibrary.nl%2Findex.html
[quote]This work is an attempt to unite hermetic and kabbalistic ideas. Some of the chapters are also given in Hebrew. The diagram echoes the concerns of the book, as it uses a well-known hermetic symbol and fuses this with a kabbalistic diagram of th worlds. The diagram is entitled 'the Splendor of the Light', which calls to mind the kabbalist's perception of the highest spiritual domain emanating from light. The top section shows an equal armed-cross (here without Christian context) with the Hebrew name of God YHVH at its center. Each arm of the cross is one of the four worlds which the kabbalists believe emerge from the godhead - Aziloth, the Archetypal World of Emanations; Briah, the Creative World of the Angels; Jezirah, the Starry World of Formation; and Asiah, the Created World of the Elements.
<refers to diagram>
The lower part of this diagram is the 'Centrum in trigono centri', which occurs in a number of hermetic works, from the early decades of the 17th century. For example in Henricus Madathanus (or Hadrian à Mynsicht) Aureum Seculum Redivivum, 1621, in the Geheime Figuren of the Rosicrucians (see item 58), and was in the 17th century even carved into the lintel of a symbolic alchemical gate which can still be seen in Rome. The symbolism of this star of David or interwoven triangles, integrates the four elements Earth, Water, Air and Fire; the three Principles of Salt, Sulphur and Mercury, or Body, Spirit and Soul. The central circle suggests the hermetic maxim, that God is the circle whose centre is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere. This was used by many writers but especially by the Boehmist mystics - Dionysius Freher uses this as the basis of his series of mystical emblems [i]Paradoxa, emblemata, aenigmata, hieroglyphica de uno, toto, puncto [/i]. This work consists of twelve sections, each with a poem, connected with an emblematic figure, and a commentary or explanation of the symbolism. It shows how the hermaphoditic child of the Sun and Moon, the philosophic Adam, or first matter of philosophers, undergoes a transformation, through various stages, often pictured with bird or animal symbolism, to a state of perfection.[/quote]

This is pretty heavy stuff, but I quoted a bit just to show the length and depth of the history of scholarship on Kabbalah and Gnosticism - both of which existed for probably some eternity before being committed to paper and surely have many commonalities and shared sources. Hermetics relate to the mystical Gnostic writings of the early centuries of the Christian Church and are attributed to Hermes Trismegistus. Hermes [alliterates well with Hermiones, BTW] is the Greek name for Mercury, the planet following closest to the sun [as Hermione's sun sign follows closest to Harry's, as someone mentioned above], just as Moses de Leon has in his name a tie to Harry's sign. Anyway, a core belief of Gnosticism was that spiritual emancipation comes through gnosis [which is the esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth]. Hence the natural blending of seemingly different philosophies, for they are seeking the same underlying truth: Hermetic [Gnostic] principles with Kabbalistic principles [could be represented as Hermione with Harry] for seeking to know God and universe, or universal truth and love.

Mutant for Hire

July 29th, 2003, 10:37 am

It all comes down to this, if you were Hermione and you had your pick out of two boys, which one would it be.

Ron, the crazy funny guy, whose main thrill of the day would be insult everything you do.

And who went beserk when someone insulted you and actually tried to curse the guy who insulted you. Harry has rarely stood up for you the way that Ron has.

And where has Ron shown any signs of being a crazy funny guy? Are you confusing him with the twins? And Ron and Hermione are quite critical of each other.

or
Harry, the guy who would be willing to risk his life to save you no matter what.

And is there any indication that Ron would not do any less? If so, why do you think that?

hmmmm its a tough choice.

Which one will it be?

(Oh hurry up Hermione! the suspence is killing me!)
A lot of the Harry and Hermione types tend to be anti-Ron. They view him as immature and comic relief. Of course these people also tend to overlook that James' situation with Lily was far worse and the two of them ended up together. Ron has a lot of virtues and while he does need to do some growing up, as Sirius and Lupin said, people can be idiots when they're fifteen. There's no reason to think Ron won't grow up out of it. He's not like Fred and George.

Harry has struggled with problems that Ron didn't have to, but few people appreciate that Ron has struggled with problems that Harry never had to face. Ron had a string of very talented brothers he had to live up to. He grew up permanently two years behind the rest of them in skill and experience, and that probably left a few scars. He's had to live with the consequences of poverty where Harry has never wanted for money since he turned eleven. Ron has had to put up with Harry constantly breaking the rules and getting away with it, getting all sorts of special exemptions and gifts while Ron himself never got anything. A lot of people hold the falling out between them in book four against Ron never thinking of all the years of frustration and envy that built up to it. And they conveniently overlook that Harry himself had a falling out with Hermione over much more trivial reasons.

Ron has stuck up and stuck by Hermione for all these years. Yes, she and Ron fell out, but the fact was that it wasn't Ron's fault. In fact, Hermione was being the stubborn and prideful one, refusing to accept responsibility for what her pet had done (even if it was a frame, she herself believed it). All Ron wanted was a simple apology (hardly an immature response) and she refused to give it. For that matter, Ron was pretty upset with the way Rita Skeeter portrayed Hermione in the Daily Prophet. And the one time that Hermione tried to cross a line that shouldn't be crossed, with planting the hats, Ron was the one who stood up to her, not Harry.

It's easy to overlook Ron when contrasted to Harry, but do not assume that Ron is without virtue himself.

Buckbeak

July 29th, 2003, 11:00 am

Mutant for Hire, well you've completely put me in my place im so sorry, your right Ron is 100 times better for Hermione how could i have been so stupid?

Ron is neither crazy or funny, i appolgise for that to.

Ok seriously i didn't mean anything against him and im certainly not anti-Ron thats just rediculous, Ron is great and im was only asking that question mildly.
:upset:'Im so sorry Ron, your a nice guy really' :)

Grace Granger

July 29th, 2003, 11:22 am

lleyki, great post! I'd like to add that in PS/SS during Harry's Quidditch game, Ron and Neville were beating up and getting beaten up by Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle and Hermione was totally oblivious to everything that was happening beneath her seat due to her excitement over the game. Excitement coming someone who doesn't like Quidditch very much.

evaluna, great post as well. I can't wait to see what else you are going to write.

nodd, great post on Harry's POV. But must Harry die!! :upset: and this comment you made:

...Hermione and Harry are the two most complex and deep characters.

I totally agree with that and I think that's what I love about them and see this as the reason why they'd make a great couple. They're very passionate. I love it! :D

sone

July 29th, 2003, 11:32 am

When Ron made the Quidditch team, Hermione said she was pleased but Ron was "slighty put out" by her being slumped over on the armchair sleeping. Hermione it seems has never been too tired or too busy to watch Harry play Quidditch.

AvadaKedavra

July 29th, 2003, 11:39 am

A lot of the Harry and Hermione types tend to be anti-Ron. They view him as immature and comic relief. Of course these people also tend to overlook that James' situation with Lily was far worse and the two of them ended up together. Ron has a lot of virtues and while he does need to do some growing up, as Sirius and Lupin said, people can be idiots when they're fifteen. There's no reason to think Ron won't grow up out of it. He's not like Fred and George.

Exactly. Take a :tu: for that.

Seriously, the maturing process has started, especially in OOTP. While Ron and Hermione may still bicker, Ron shows evidence of restraining himself, *all throughout the book*. His reactions are less vicious and he doesn't make Hermione cry (finally!). I remember Earendil stating the criteria for which R/Hr may happen under, and one of them was a change in Ron- becoming more mature. Well, that has been satsified (nearly).

Someone, I can't rememeber who, asked why didn't JKR take the opportunity to develop Ron and Hermione by having Ron stand up for Hermione when she reprimands Fred and George for their tricks? Well, if this was done, and a lot of opportunities to develop R/Hr were taken up, i.e. Valentine's day- Harry walks in and sees Ron and Hermione chatting in a corner (how I wish it was true), then basically the case would be sealed and shut. It would be practically confirmed, and that would spoil a lot of "dreams". (Only joking- :p)

As JKR said, "in the fullness of time", which is correlative with her continued slight development of R/Hr- to keep it simmering and to keep us guessing.

The rest of post was pretty much correct. Take another :tu:

This is not the Ron bashing thread.

:p

*in an incredibly quiet voice

(Ecthelion, Tolkien created a complete mythology, if you like. JKR will never match that, even with 6 and 7 still to come. Now I've really done it.)

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

[b] Buckbeak

RON RULEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(* drafts new legislation which makes ron-bashing illegal, and which furtherly makes any bashing punishable by a little visit by the goblins, which Hawk has so kindly shown me the horrors of)

:D

DumbledoreTheWise

July 29th, 2003, 11:49 am

evaluna~ Kabbalah and Gnosticism? Good choice. If I were to relate either of those topics to Harry Potter it would not be the relationships, it would be more in the themes and conflicts, the spiritual conotations, yadda yadda yadda. :cool: But anyhoo, even if Hermione can be derived from Hermes, there is still the question of the actual Hermione in mythology. Not that I'm discrediting Kabbalah, but something tells me Jo Rowling is more knowledgable in the mythology department.
Names like Argus, Minerva, Alastor, etc, have roots in mythology and each of these characters relate directly to the stories of mythology and the character's traits.
Hermione, as I am sure you've read before, ended up with a man called Leontes. Leontes was easily angered, easily suspicious, and infamously jealous. I think that description fits Ron more than Harry. In fact, I don't think Harry is any one of those things. But atleast you're trying to back you're stuff up with something tangible as opposed to the actor's chemistry. So I give you props for that. :D

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 12:07 pm

Original post by Dumbledore the Wise
evaluna~ Kabbalah and Gnosticism? Good choice. If I were to relate either of those topics to Harry Potter it would not be the relationships, it would be more in the themes and conflicts, the spiritual conotations, yadda yadda yadda.

DD the wise: Thanks very much for your post. I am not quite sure what you mean re: my focus on relationships, since I am very much discussing spiritual connotations [and implications...], themes and conflicts, particularly regarding Harry as main figure. I do so in particular in the section under the Zohar. And I'm only just getting started on the spiritual connotations, themes and conflicts, trust me ;)

Re: Gnosticism, Hermes Trismegistus, and Hermiones, I brought in a link someone else had already discussed (FP, for one)-- the link between Hermes, which is the Greek form of Mercury -- which is Hermione's sun sign's ruling planet -- and that planet's closest relationship to the sun, which is Harry's sun sign's ruling planet. JKR is well aware of all these, I'm sure. I'm simply presenting some of the relationships that exist between these signs and symbols. There are also other connections between the mythical figure of Hermes and esoteric knowledge, that fit well with Hermione's character.

Also, regarding the imperfect and disturbing analogy of Ron to Leontes in a Winter's Tale, please check out Perdita's repost a few pages back, which I also quoted just a page or so ago. Leontes tried to kill Hermione out of unfounded jealousy and tried to have his best friend Polixenes poisoned. It's probably not a fair comparison for Ron IMO and certainly paints a dark picture of him.
Cheers!

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 12:18 pm

- And Hermione in "A Winters Tale" had to be cast to jail, give birth to a child (which she loses), and living several years in exile. (If i rember "A Winters Tale correctly, correct me if I'm wrong)
I really don't hope Hermione (the HP one) has to go through any of that.
I think it is a bit dangerous to think that JKR just ripped off something by Shakespeare

jeanie beanie

July 29th, 2003, 12:20 pm

It has taken me days to read all of the posts. I never really thought too much about potential ships in the books before coming across this thread, but if you'd asked me I would've said Ron and Hermione will be a couple and possibly Harry and Ginny. I have to admit that the likelihood of Harry and Hermione getting together honestly never crossed my mind. Even after reading everyone's opinions, as much as I'm for any ship, I think I'll stand by my initial take on the matter. I do want to say, though, thanks to all who've posted on this topic and made me consider different possibilities. :p

DumbledoreTheWise

July 29th, 2003, 12:37 pm

evaluna~ I know you went into some spiritual stuff, I'm just saying I wouldn't have ever attempted to justify a relationship via Kabbalah. Not that I'm saying you can't. In fact Kabbalah is probably the most supportive spiritual doctrine of the importance of the balance between masuline and feminine, and the benefits of a man/woman relationship. (Based on my limited knowledge, that is, perhaps rivaled in a very weak sense by comparibly later Asian or Indian religions).
Mercury is the planet most directly related to Hermione, eh? Hermione's birthday is September 19th, she is a Virgo. Virgo is the source of inspiration for the word virgin, the Virgo sign is heavily related to the planet/god of Venus. Venus is a very womanly sign (crudely displayed as a woman's razor in the US, but an excellent razor if I do say so myself). The term virgin from Virgo really doesn't so much relate to the physical sense of virgin as we have come to think of it. Venus was a god in mythology who was actually what we might call a "player" of a girl, hardly a vigin as she was known for her.....er......willingness to be with lots of men. Virgin from this context did not mean never being with a man, but rather never being controlled by one. Being independent from man. I have no idea if any of that made sense, but my point is that according to my (once again) limited knowledge of astrology/astronomy, Venus is most directly related to Hermione's astrological sign.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me like Hermes related more to Mercury than Hermione did, so I took it from her birthday. Do correct me on the astrology part, as you apparently have knowledge on sun signs, etc.

Happy Monday Everyone! :D

dantares

July 29th, 2003, 12:53 pm

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 1:00 pm

Original post by Dumbledore the Wise
Do correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me like Hermes related more to Mercury than Hermionedid, so I took it from her birthday. Do correct me on the astrology part, as you apparently have knowledge on sun signs, etc.

Actually I did correctly reference FP re: Hermione's ruling planet being Mercury. Harry's ruling planet is the sun. The analogy is this: Mercury is the planet closest to the sun, the one that most closely follows the sun. Virgo is the sign that follows Leo, regarding Hermiones and Harry [and their respective sun signs]. This is the tie to Hermes/Mercury the planet with the sun, vis-a-vis Harry and Hermione. Once more, Hermione's sign comes behind Harry's, giving credence to her role as his rock, his foundation, his support. Hermes is associated with healing and knowledge [medicine], both of which Hermiones supplies to Harry via love and emotional and intellectual support [symbolised in OoP by the Hermione as Lifeline scene at holiday break, No. 12].

And I'll let someone else discuss the caduceus further but Hermes' staff = 2 entwined snakes [... remember Dumbledore's smoky vision in OoP??? it's possible...] is also an ancient symbol of esoteric knowledge, hence another reference to the Kabbalah and Gnosticism. Specifically, Hermes was the messenger, the one who brought knowledge to humankind. Including, e.g., knowledge of healing and esoteric wisdom. This can be viewed as symbolic of what Hermione does for Harry, and why he needs her desperately. And the complementary dualism especially present in Kabbalah [on many levels: man and woman, God and humankind, etc] is exactly a part of what I was getting at.

BTW Lupin/Luna's association with the moon/Cancer: this sign precedes Leo and also represents esoteric knowledge via association with the unconscious, the universal mother, the gateway of souls -- this suggests once again that Lupin and Luna will somehow also be key to Harry's spiritual growth and understanding on an esoteric level.

Cheers!

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 1:13 pm

I really doubt that JKR will write a new J/L relationship thats why I say H/Hr would be exact or nearlly exact opposite to this. Just because this would happening in a different if not tragical background. All what J/L had to face were there own feelings and unsureness. Thats different very different to H/Hr.
They won't not only face a future which everywhere they go will hanging a sword over there head its even the cast they have to admint this feelings.Thats why I think this couple won't be uninteresting. No its exactly the other way around. If we really get H/Hr there will be angst, hope and over all love. This might be are really interest read if you ask me. You have to imagine Harry isn't the shining, smiling 15 or 16 year old boy. He is much more the dark, sad angry person who fight against a prophecy which was make even before he was born. Someone who saw dead, angst and still know the most terrible thing will come. So he don't feel like every other 16 year old guy who have only to worry how cool he is or which band is playing tonight in the bar or which girl will smile at him.
This is very different if I read about Krum in GoF I didn't thought one single moment that he is 4 years older as Harry. The same count for Hermione as she was at the Yule Ball with Krum this wasn't like a man gos out with a girl which is so much younger. It was as if Hermione was on the same level like Krum.
So they are very martured even some say they still Teenager. Yeah they are but a different sort of teenagers. Maybe teenagers which know how it is to lose.
All three Ron, Harry and Hermione have the most difficult two years in front of them. What I say is that Ron did already realise that he won't get together with Hermione. Not because Hermione did speak all the time of Harry, and she did this everytime Harry comes to theme after he was away or if Ron comes to Harry its say like that: Hermione and I did stop to bicker. I should tell you it would be nice...bla bla bla.(Ron)
As Harry comes back from detention with Umbridge Hermione and Ron were waiting (note: It was very late) she had a liquid which did took away the pain from his hand. Seconds later as Hermione and Ron are to bed Harry hears the very first time in OotP his mind speaking in Hermiones voice. As Hedwig was attacked Hermione was nearlly speak with Ron about it as Harry came back. Hermione said to Ron he should look after Harry. Actuelly Hermione dos speak that often about Harry that Ron dos refer her. He do quote her. You don't do it if this person don't speak often about this topic.
Because Hermione didn't show any signs that she like Ron that way. If she did show sign than why didn't Ron act or better why didn't act Hermione? Its simple because Hermione don't show signs better she do more things to get ride of Rons crush at her.

Just think about insteed of Hermione, Ron did give this parfume Luna? She would have react very different to be exact absolute opposite and that say she would say she love it and not say its unusual. But this isn't even that what bothered me.

Its the fact that Hermione in front of Ron tells Harry how wonderful his present is that she wanted it since ages and than she turns to Ron and say thanks for the parfume well this is unusual? Thats screams out loud how can you Hermione?! For heaven sake that is tactless if she know Ron likes her. In that case its more as clear that she make a different between them. Just imagine you are the guy who think once in her life she don't get a book and you was so thoughtful and buy a perfume you are full of hope she might like it. As usuall you hear her thank you about this book what Harry did buy her and she seems very happy and than she turns to you and you expect now comes, now comes that she say she loved it and is thankfully but insteed she open her mouth and you hear unusual thats like a slap into your face. Now you should really start to wonder if this girl is it even worth to fall for.

Is it only me or was after christmas no R/Hr scene there? Or better the action was after that different

EDIT:

MERCURY

Mercury takes 88 days to complete the cycle of the zodiac.

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This glyph depicts the winged-helmeted messenger of the Gods. In Roman mythology Mercury is the god of commerce, travel and thievery, the Roman counterpart of the Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the Gods. The planet probably received this name because it moves so quickly across the sky. It was given two names by the Greeks: Apollo for its apparition as a morning star and Hermes as an evening star. Greek astronomers knew, however, that the two names referred to the same body.
Mercury acts to process large volumes of information within our essential being---as represented by the sun. It allows a person to think, discriminate, express oneself and to move about. This has been called an animator of movement and is associated with our nervous system: the communication and transportation system within our bodies. Mercury tends to make a person verbose, critical, and high strung; the person born under the sign ruled by this planet may even give Leo a run for his money in the egotistical department.

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Mercury Rules the Sign of Virgo
On the downside: You can be critical, petty, self-centered and picky.

Your good qualities include: Industrious, methodical, humane, loving.

Learning to accept others for the way they are and not the way you think they should be could be your lifes work.

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VIRGO
Your symbol is the Virgin.
she is the embodiment of purity.

Understanding yourself (and others)

When reading the personality description of your traits below, please keep in mind that the ones discussed here
are mainly indicative of the influence of your element, and the influence of your ruling planet.
The positions of the other celestial bodies at the very moment of your birth could
change, or temper them to a vast extent.

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This Reading is generic, to start living up to your potiential
have your personal chart done now.

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MUTABLE--Sixth Sign of the Zodiac--EARTH SIGN
August 23 to September 23
By Mercury being placed in Virgo you have an unusual ability to reason that is lacking in other signs. Not that you are more intelligent but rather that you lean towards the logical in all you think, and sometimes this may not be the best thing as there has to be some of the odd, unusual things in life that you will have to learn to accept that does not seem to have any order, logic, or reason. You do find it easier to think than to do anything else, better than most other people for that matter. You must guard against living in your head and not in the world.

You have a computer like memory that allows you to be able to assimilate a large amount of information and then present it to the masses in a more understandable manner. You are very good at expressing this type of thing but when it comes to something close to your heart, such as love or compassion, you find it hard to let the other person know and can thus appear to be aloof and cold. You have a tendency to get out of sorts and become 'picky' with those around you which makes for some unforgiven hard feelings in the future.

You can be argumentative, critical, nervous and tense and if you do not make a special effort to overcome these you will lose many friends and loved ones throughout your lifetime without a clue as to why. Virgoans are the critics of the Zodiac which I feel is an offshoot of their lack of self-confidence. A big job ahead for all Virgoans is to build up self-confidence and their acceptance of the fact that everyone cannot be the same as he or she is; learn to live and let live.

As Virgo is the sign of the harvest you spend most of your time separating the wheat from the chaff and most of your life trying to take away the useless from the useful, thus working your way to a state of subconscious purity, (the principle of the Vestal Virgin). Are you the purist or the puritan? The purist trusts his or her inherent goodness to keep them separate from any unwholesome involvement with potentially corrupting elements in our society. The puritan is the picky, squeaky clean type who will never be pure in self and who searchs for it but cannot find it in others: therefore, the criticism

The sun being an orb, or circle, is one of the oldest symbols known that represents life in many cultures. While the sun is not a true planet it is considered so in astrology forecasts. The sun represents your ego and your conscious will as well as your physical life energies. It is your every day consciousness (awareness) through which other levels of consciousness can interact. The position of the sun in your natal chart depicts the way you radiate energies in relation to the events in your life. Its effect is mainly paternal and that is traditionally masculine. The Sun is the heart of the horoscope and where it is found then it is there that you will want to shine.

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The Sun Rules the Sign of Leo
On the downside: You may have a heavy ego, and you can be arrogant, vain, and extravagant.
Your good qualities include: A strong vitality, honorable, creative, generous, dignified.
Developing your own self identity and mode of creative energy expression will be your ongoing life's work.

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LEO
Your symbol is the majestic Lion.
king of all he surveys.

Understanding yourself (and others)

When reading the personality description of your traits below, please keep in mind that the ones discussed here
are mainly indicative of the influence of your element, and the influence of your ruling planet.
The positions of the other celestial bodies at the very moment of your birth could
change, or temper them to a vast extent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This Reading is generic, to start living up to your potiential
have your personal chart done now.

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FIXED--Fifth sign of the Zodiac--FIRE SIGN
July 23 to August 22
Leo has a great deal of self confidence but they also have a great fear of being ridiculed and made to feel disgraced. While Leo is very affectionate there is a tendency to have things their way and may rapidly lose interest if they are challenged too often for the leading role. They will have to learn to discipline themselves against their overall enthusiasm for living life to the fullest, which is to say, dangerously on the edge. The creative urge in Leos should never be stifled as to do so a good deal of potential will be wasted.

Leos are found as painters, actors, or sculptors; but not all Leos are in the public arts, no, rather they can be found in the throes of creation doing their projects on the kitchen table. They have an infectious vitality that lights up their lives like an inner sun and illuminates not only their lives, but the lives of those around them. Lack of fulfillment in life, professionally or personally, can destroy these bright and shinning people and cloud their personalities.Leos need control in their lives to be really satisfied so organization is absolutely essential to their peace of mind.

A leo should cultivate a flexible mind as they do not always 'know best'.
Only when this trait is cultivated can the characteristic Leonine warmth, generosity, and desire to really understand others be fully indulged.

The lions love and adore children as they bring out the inner child. Leos are surprisingly sensitive and easily hurt, but they do have a tendency to dominate and this should never be underestimated. It is always meant well as they only want to bring out the best in the people they care about, or work with. They also tend toward impatience and they should make curbing these traits a lifelong objective. Born leaders, they can take command of a situation in any emergency and see it through to its completion. The enthusiams they acquired in childhood will generally last a lifetime and may even dictate the career one would choose.

They can be too status conscious, causing themselves much anguish when, or if, they cannot keep up with others in their immediate circle. They can also be quite overbearing and vain when they feel they are being challenged. On the other hand, the lions make great lovers and parents, giving more to a relationship than most of the other signs. They are good honorable persons and good providers.

The trident of the Roman sea-god shows Neptune as a vast, deep, mysterious and unknown force. Although the effects of Neptune can be seemingly nebulous, such obscure aspects can be dissolved by merging yourself into the vast ocean of oneness with the universe. If you are unable to pierce its mysteries there will be confusion, dishonesty, martyrdom, and indecisiveness.
Neptune appears to be a higher vibration of Venus, offering a deeper and more refined form of energy. When we are able to get in touch with some of the spiritual energies of Neptune, we can experience a higher degree of compassion, beauty, and divinity.
Neptune was once known as Poseidon the Greek sea god who administered all the lakes and the rivers. Neptune turned himself into a stallion to woo the goddess Demeter when she became a mare, thus he has been called the inventor of horse racing. The planet Neptune bears its closest association with Pisces, the most watery of all the signs, and is particularly concerned with dancing and poetry. Neptune encourages imagination, sensitivity and idealism.

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Neptune Rules the Sign of Pisces

On the downside: Dishonesty, Martyrdom, and Indecisiveness in most affairs.
Your good qualities include: Sensitivity to the needs of others and Idealism
Your lifes work: Learning to use your creative imagination to the benefit of others, not just self.

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PISCES
Your symbol is the Fish
Swimming in opposite directions.

Understanding yourself (and others)

When reading the personality description of your traits below, please keep in mind that the ones discussed here
are mainly indicative of the influence of your element, and the influence of your ruling planet.
The positions of the other celestial bodies at the very moment of your birth
could change, or temper them to a vast extent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This Reading is generic, to start living up to your potiential
have your personal chart done now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MUTABLE--Twelfth sign of the Zodiac--WATER SIGN
Feburary 20 to March 20

The upstream of the two fish show that you fight against the 'currents'; that you make an effort to overcome the negative aspects and happenings in your life by looking for inspiration, while at the same time you are willing to share those inspirations with others. Perhaps pushing yourself and others too hard.

The fish in the opposite direction suggest exactly what you would think; you feel, sometimes, as though everyone will eventually get to the point they are aiming for so why put forth the effort. The downstream fish does not have a goal or very much ambition but, Basically, the upstream one has a point to its life but can push so hard that it completely misses the mark.

The contradictions in your nature show that you are plotting a course to your objectives while the other side of you says, "why bother"?, This type of inner turmoil can cause you to give people all manner of impressions about you, such as: A genuine altruist to a subtle manipulator, or from the mystic to the misfit. The cause of these misleading impressions are your inner sense of feeling that all is one and one is all; you can do anything, or be anyone. In other words, you can be all things to all people.

You are a caring and sympathetic human being but rather than let the world know just how soft hearted you are you have found many ways to camouflage your immense sensitivity. This is also the trait that lets you present one thing as being another, done so that you can enlighten those who listen to you and look to you for help.
You make good, loving parents and your sensitivity allows you to understand the emotional needs of your children. Some Pisceans do not make good wives or husbands as they find it hard to give up their favorite game of flirting and the ego boost of getting a response from the opposite sex. It is hard to respond to a partner, on any level, when you are caught in a net of the fear of being found out.

You are good at understanding others and yourself, more so than any other sign. This is also the sign of the true, and gifted, mystic.You are appreciative of people in all walks of life although you occasionally complain about their ways you usually go back into your usual mode of acceptance, giving everyone the right to act for themselves. You root for the underdog and champion lost causes but they only serve to remind you that joy and sorrow are one and sensitivity is synonymous with suffering

(I hope this helps)

haycheng

July 29th, 2003, 1:17 pm

Well, mutant for hire
I do not think we really dislike/bash Ron. It is really unfair to any character. Each has their own place. Without Ron, the story would not be as interesting. However, you give Ron a very high praise. The idea that he deserve to be perfect, is going to far. Either Ron or Harry deserve that spot as both have make many mistakes in decision(we see more mistake from Ron as he is made perfect, but I guess Harry could be make almost as many).
I also remember your post that bashing Hermione. I agree she may have some sercue issue(who would not, everyone has wonder self-value, one time or the other), but you go so far that makes she sound like the most insercue person in the world. IMHO, it is you who bash the characters, not us.

The thing that bothers me about H/R is that they are very different in outlook of life, also different when interact with the world. It is a problem could be overcome, but neither has show enough effort to change the situation. This is the solo reason why I do not like the idea of H/R.

PS: I am suprise by everyone knowledge on star and religious :wow:

As for H/Hr, I still stand by what I say, I believe it has about the same chance as H/G.

Sarmi

July 29th, 2003, 1:20 pm

Yes, I agree with Mutant for Hire

After all, I used to be a H/Hr shipper and I started to hate Ron after I read GoF. Why? Because GoF shows Ron and Hermione becoming a couple and I do not like that. I wanted Harry to go with Hermione and GoF make me realise that this is not going to happen. So I do feel that Hermione will go with Ron more than with Harry. Hermione may show that she have feelings for Harry but she may not eventually get Harry's love. It is already book 5 so if Harry have any real feelings for Hermione, it should shown by now. So it's not possible for H/Hr to go together.

Well, I'll admit that I didn't care for Ron after GoF because of the way he kept on ridiculing and insulting Hermione. Ron & Hermione did not become a couple in GoF.

However, in OotP, Ron was redeemed in my eyes to some extent. I'm very happy about him getting the Quidditch Keeper position and I do hope that he might get Captain next year, if Harry can't play. As for the prefect badge, I'll put it bluntly......that was a cop-out. Ron did not deserve the prefecture, and everytime we do see him do his duties, he's complaining about it. His prefecture is hampering his fun. Now, I still don't care for how Ron treats Hermione, always wanting to copy off her homework, but I can admit that his behavior is a little better than GoF.

Sarmi

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 1:39 pm

FP: THANK YOU! :) and great post.

OK for the record, I did not misrepresent FP and re: Hermione's birthday, the ruling planet for Virgo IS Mercury.
So I am removing edits from my post !!! :)
P.S. FP, Can you post for Cancer [moon] from the same site? This would be for Lupin/Luna. Thanks!!!
Cheers!

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 1:39 pm

Something I need to add the neptun(pirsces needs 165 years to circle one time around the sun.
Mercury(Virgo) only 88 days.

EDIT:

It takes the Moon 27 days
to complete the cycle of the zodiac.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the glyph of the moon; the moon was called Luna by the Romans, Selene and Artemis by the Greeks, and many other names in other mythologies. The moon represents the basic nature of your instincts and feelings. It has a nurturing influence that gives a deep impression and unique sensitivity within your mind. Intuitive people often have a strong moon placement. The moon has a direct influence on the mind which can be seen and felt in varying ways during each unique phase of the moon. This is particularly hard for those who are slightly unstable as the pull that the moon exerts on the tides are also felt in the brain fluids, making the effects of mental illness more enhanced. This is how the insane asylums came to call their inmates 'lunatics' as they were worse, or more dangerous, during the full moon.
The moon also brings out the negative side of the cancerian nature which he or she must continually battle in order to overcome what could easily become a major flaw in character causing themselves and others much grief and pain.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Moon Rules the Sign of Cancer

On the downside: Clannish and moody, attached to the past, a worrier and a clinger, jealousy.
Your good qualities include: Patient, sensitive, romantic, sociable, and maternal.
To identify your own personal feelings and put selfishness aside will be your lifes work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CANCER
Your symbol is the Crab,
it is the scavenger of the seas.

Understanding yourself (and others)

When reading the personality description of your traits below, please keep in mind that the ones discussed here
are mainly indicative of the influence of your element, and the influence of your ruling planet.
The positions of the other celestial bodies at the very moment of your birth
could change, or temper them to a vast extent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This Reading is generic, to start living up to your potiential
have your personal chart done now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CARDINAL--Fourth sign of the Zodiac--WATER SIGN
June 22 to July 22
The essence of the Cancerian personality can be boiled down to one word, sensitivity, when examined is a maze of winding roads that can lead anywhere and everywhere. These winding roads actually start at birth with the inborn instinct for survival and his or her utter dependence on the world, and the fear born of this dependency. While you have the innate desire to succeed gloriously in the world, you also have a resentment that grows with each instance of facing the harsh realities in living. Cancer will do well to learn to seek to protect rather than to seek protection as this will help you change your negative leanings into a positive attitude that will guide you through adversity.

Cancer will find their greatest security within the structure of a family setting due to the maternal side and the need to protect those in his or her charge. There is a homey feel about Cancer that draws the other signs; You have the ability to attune to the moods of others quickly or to change their moods to suit yours; you should not underestimate your effect on people and you should learn to use this ability wisely and not just for personal gain.

When Cancer does not attempt to control the personality
then everyone around is in trouble as the negative Cancer is not a pleasant person to know. Negative Cancer becomes sulky when the desires are not met; the tendency is that the world owes them something and they will collect from everyone around, if this Cancer is denied, then that person will be dropped from his or her life, even if it is close family members. Negative Cancer finds it hard to hold a job and will quit at even imaginary slights. The negative Cancer will not take orders and is the most likely to wind up in the guardhouse if in the services.

You have a very sentimental nature, an incurable romantic, and you love nice things around you. You have a good memory, of both slights and favors done for you, you must learn to forgive and forget in order to ward off the dark depressions you find yourself falling into. In any case, you are the most emotional of all the signs and must learn to deal with them, but when you do, look out world--here comes positive Cancer to conquer and reap all they survey!

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 1:41 pm

Quote:
I think it is a bit dangerous to think that JKR just ripped off something by Shakespeare

JKR had said that she picked the name because she wanted a weird name something dentist would do but her Hermione bear little relationship to the Hermione on the book.

Quote:
I really doubt that JKR will write a new J/L relationship thats why I say H/Hr would be exact or nearlly exact opposite to this. Just because this would happening in a different if not tragical background. All what J/L had to face were there own feelings and unsureness. Thats different very different to H/Hr.

I think R/Hr do not hate each other like L/J did. So their story is different. Harry's story would be different, that's why I think he'll be with Ginny. :elaugh: :p

Quote:
I do hope that he might get Captain next year, if Harry can't play. As for the prefect badge, I'll put it bluntly......that was a cop-out. Ron did not deserve the prefecture, and everytime we do see him do his duties, he's complaining about it. His prefecture is hampering his fun. Now, I still don't care for how Ron treats Hermione, always wanting to copy off her homework, but I can admit that his behavior is a little better than GoF.

Harry wouldn't have been a good prefect. I always suspected that jkr wasn't going to give him the prefect and I also think he isn't going to get head boy either. Harry has other proyects. Besides I think Ron was better suited for that.

Gily Ann

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 1:47 pm

I do think the planets are interest much more as the sign itself. Because we have alone from the names directly links to the planets. Hermes/Hermione, Luna/Luna. Exactly opposite to each other: Mercury:
This glyph depicts the winged-helmeted messenger of the Gods. In Roman mythology Mercury is the god of commerce, travel and thievery, the Roman counterpart of the Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the Gods. The planet probably received this name because it moves so quickly across the sky. It was given two names by the Greeks: Apollo for its apparition as a morning star and Hermes as an evening star. Greek astronomers knew, however, that the two names referred to the same body.
Mercury acts to process large volumes of information within our essential being---as represented by the sun. It allows a person to think, discriminate, express oneself and to move about. This has been called an animator of movement and is associated with our nervous system: the communication and transportation system within our bodies. Mercury tends to make a person verbose, critical, and high strung; the person born under the sign ruled by this planet may even give Leo a run for his money in the egotistical department.
Moon:
This is the glyph of the moon; the moon was called Luna by the Romans, Selene and Artemis by the Greeks, and many other names in other mythologies. The moon represents the basic nature of your instincts and feelings. It has a nurturing influence that gives a deep impression and unique sensitivity within your mind. Intuitive people often have a strong moon placement. The moon has a direct influence on the mind which can be seen and felt in varying ways during each unique phase of the moon. This is particularly hard for those who are slightly unstable as the pull that the moon exerts on the tides are also felt in the brain fluids, making the effects of mental illness more enhanced. This is how the insane asylums came to call their inmates 'lunatics' as they were worse, or more dangerous, during the full moon.
The moon also brings out the negative side of the cancerian nature which he or she must continually battle in order to overcome what could easily become a major flaw in character causing themselves and others much grief and pain.

Grace Granger

July 29th, 2003, 1:49 pm

I'm a Cancer!!! I'm a disease! :D

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 1:53 pm

FP: Thanks again! Just wonderful. I agree the planets are important and there are direct parallels between these two characters and their planetary namesakes.

Grace: Chin up, we're both in this together...remember, *stay positive* ;)

Cheers! :)

dantares

July 29th, 2003, 2:00 pm

I do not think that Ron will be the only one neglecting his duties. Harry would be the same as Ron. He would neglect his duties too and would not report his closest friends.

aeterna_kai

July 29th, 2003, 2:01 pm

Ah hello there all you mad people^-^ Sirius asked me when I was going to get around to posting in here so i thought I would just jump in...I wasn't really expected to read through all 29 pages right? *blinks* i got up to 8....

Anywho - I doubt I have anthing really constuctive to say on the point- except to offer my support of the H/Hr ship ^-^ You guys got another crew mate! Its hard to say why exactly I prefer this ship, in fact after reading OOtp if harry didn't have to use his heart in the end to defeat Voldie I'd say he'd end up a lonely old D00de as far as romance is concerned. However, if harry does indeed need to discover love in order to destroy Voldemort then to me Hermione is the one for him.
I don't really feel the need to give a truck load of proof for why (lets just say its womans intuition, being under libran venus gives me a good idea on the romance issues;) )...I imagine plenty of other folk have already given enough proof to convince even JK herself - brilliant posts btw LLeyki, you arugue your point extremely well!

I also really enjoyed reading you posts Evaluna - i adore mystisim and spirituality - and although a lot of what you say is a bit too indepth for my small limited knowledge - i found you views on Harry and Hermione linking as ying and yang very enlightening^-^

As I see it... Ron and Hermione are Soul Mates. But Harry and Hermione are Twin Flames.

btw DD the wise - Virgo is ruled over by Mercury, not Venus, hence virgo meaning virgin does make sense...the star constellation virgo actually comes from the goddess Astraea, a pure goddess who was the last god to leave earth during mans bronze age^-^ (as an extra - the scales symbol from libra comes from astraea's mother Themis - justice who was second to last to leave mankind.)

On another note the only thing which spoils the H/HR ship for me is that in an interview JK confirmed that there was 'something' between hermione and ron, only ron didnt see it yet - Ron and hermione's behaviour does often remind me of Mr and Mrs Weasley actually come to think of it...but anywho- I'm still holding out for sirius' 3 book crush rule. there may have been something between ron and hermione in book 4, but that can all change by the time we reach book 7. As someone said- james and lilly had a lot worse to contend with than the struggles between harry and hermione.

Its not going to be an easy ride for any of the trio thats for sure - but I am holding out for a h/hr happy ending. maybe its because i also think that ron is going to die in the end...^.^;

Earendil

July 29th, 2003, 2:04 pm

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
And who went beserk when someone insulted you and actually tried to curse the guy who insulted you. Harry has rarely stood up for you the way that Ron has.

Yes, and who also seems to think it acceptable to butt in to her personal life and attack her for something that is entirely none of her business. Who also makes fun of things that are important to her and snaps at her when he knows she's right.

I would like to say that I absolutely love Ron. I simply don't think that he's the right man for Hermione. He does not treat her the way she needs to be treated, and she does not treat him the way he needs to be treated. Neither of them are perfect little angels, but it's clear to me that they bring out the absolute worst in each other rather than the best.

On Ron-bashing in general: I constantly hear that H/Hr shippers are by definition Ron-bashers. This becomes exasperating after awhile. I know that my personal opinions of the characters have nothing to do with my shipping preferences, and I'm sure that the same goes for most of my shipmates. Ron is not my favorite character, though I adore him, but it doesn't mean that I have to bash him in order to defend my ship. I won't turn a blind eye to his faults, because many of his character flaws interfere with the development of a romantic relationship with Hermione and this should be used in the anti-R/Hr arguments.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Harry wouldn't have been a good prefect. I always suspected that jkr wasn't going to give him the prefect and I also think he isn't going to get head boy either. Harry has other proyects. Besides I think Ron was better suited for that.

Agreed. The funny thing is, Ron also ended up making a lousy prefect. I don't think Harry would have been much better, but I do think that JKR created an interesting juxtaposition in their respective prefect qualities. At the welcome feast, we see Ron calling for the "midgets" to follow him, and Hermione reproving him for his bluntness. Then we see Harry grinning at them in what was clearly meant to be a friendly and welcoming way. While I stand by my opinion that Harry wouldn't have been a wonderful prefect, JKR managed to show us a small instance in which Harry is behaving more prefect-ish than Ron.

Awesome work on the astrology research, evaluna and FP. I see the clappys are back, so help yourselves:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Oh, and I regret to announce that the teletubbies were no match for 00Hawk's lightsaber and Ecthelion's devilishly pointy stick. :sigh: I suppose they could only haunt the forums with their supreme creepiness for so long. But be warned: they will be back.

:elaugh:

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 2:05 pm

Harry wouldn't have been a good prefect. I always suspected that jkr wasn't going to give him the prefect and I also think he isn't going to get head boy either. Harry has other proyects. Besides I think Ron was better suited for that.

- Would you care to illuminate my darkened mind? Why do you think Ron would be a better prefect than Harry? I thought they would both be horrible prefects.

BTW, evaluna and FlyingPhoenix: Extremely intelligent research on astrology (I have thrown my jaw away earlier today since it kept dropping and detaching from my skull, erm...anyway) Have some of these :tu: :clap: :tu:

sone

July 29th, 2003, 2:06 pm

He maybe somewhat like Ron but not exactly the same as Ron. For one, Harry would never call the first year's "midgets" and perhaps be more diplomatic rather than shying away from the situation completely.

Sarmi

July 29th, 2003, 2:06 pm

Harry wouldn't have been a good prefect. I always suspected that jkr wasn't going to give him the prefect and I also think he isn't going to get head boy either. Harry has other proyects. Besides I think Ron was better suited for that.

You can't say that he wouldn't have been a good prefect because we've never seen him as a prefect. Harry was able to control Fred & George during the DA meeting with just a look, that's saying a lot. Fred & George don't listen to anyone they don't respect and like, they certainly didn't listen to Ron.

As for Head Boy, I'm afraid that I have to agree. With how JKR made Ron a prefect, I'm afraid she going to do the samething with Head Boy. Ron making prefect was very forced to me, very contrived, you can tell that Ron's character really didn't want it. I hope that I am wrong and JKR does give Harry the position of Head Boy, but I still have that niggle that she's going to force it onto Ron. :no:

Sarmi

Mega

July 29th, 2003, 2:14 pm

I hope Ron isn't made head boy. I don't think he actually did anything in OotP did he? He just staied back and let Hermione deal with it. Hopefuly they will make Hermione head girl and someone else head boy.

sone

July 29th, 2003, 2:15 pm

I disagree Sarmi. I do not think it will be Ron. If it is not Harry, it may possibly be Neville.

haycheng

July 29th, 2003, 2:16 pm

Who is the perfect from ravenclaw? I believe he would be a great headboy.

EDIT: I was thinking about Ernie McMillian, which house he is in anyway?

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 2:19 pm

Terry anywho. I think this was it

Young_Prodigy

July 29th, 2003, 2:21 pm

i think thats Ernie McMillian he was part of the DA, he wouldnt be a bad headboy. So is there just one headboy and girl for the entire school? or is it like prefects 2 for each house?

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6965&stc=1

Mega

July 29th, 2003, 2:21 pm

Neville isn't even a prefect so how will he become head boy?

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 2:25 pm

In OotP it was Anthony Goldstein and Padam Patil who were the prefects from Ravenclaw. But maybe were getting a little bit off-topic here

Daveydee

July 29th, 2003, 2:25 pm

Harry Potter has a friend.

Harry and his friend share a great number of mutual likes and dislikes.
Harry and his friend have displayed unswerving loyalty to each other over the years.
Harry and his friend have occasionally fallen out with each other and this dismays both of them.
Harry's friend has shown that they would willingly commit self-sacrifice in order to help Harry.
Harry's friend possesses a number of worthy characteristics to which Harry aspires.
Indeed Harry has some qualities to which his friend aspires, so as a duo they complement each other very well.
Harry and his friend are often able to perceive each others thoughts.
Harry and his friend have shared many experiences which have brought them progressively closer over the years.

Harry Potter has a friend. Hermione Granger? No.

Ron Weasley.

Take careful note of the list above. The fundamental arguments in favour of the H/Hr ship.

Clearly and understandably, nobody here is shipping Harry/Ron, and I am sorry to be the one who has to make this point – but it needs saying. How can a case be made for shipping H/Hr on the basis of the above, when a case could be similarly made BASED ON THOSE ARGUMENTS for a relationship between Harry and Ron.

That’s right it can’t.

Harry Potter has a friend. In fact Harry Potter has two friends. And that’s all they are.

Grace Granger

July 29th, 2003, 2:29 pm

Agreed. The funny thing is, Ron also ended up making a lousy prefect. I don't think Harry would have been much better, but I do think that JKR created an interesting juxtaposition in their respective prefect qualities. At the welcome feast, we see Ron calling for the "midgets" to follow him, and Hermione reproving him for his bluntness. Then we see Harry grinning at them in what was clearly meant to be a friendly and welcoming way. While I stand by my opinion that Harry wouldn't have been a wonderful prefect, JKR managed to show us a small instance in which Harry is behaving more prefect-ish than Ron.

Well put Earendil, Harry would have not been the best Prefect due to all of his issues, but he probably would have been a lot more friendly and less judgmental than Ron.

On the Ron Bashing. I don't think I've ever bashed Ron. I did become upset with him GoF, but other than that, he's fine with me. I just don't see him and Hermione together as a couple.

eva, I'm not bashing the fact I'm an Cancer. I love my sign, I just love to throw people off by saying I'm a disease.

Keep bringing on the astrology and mythology FP and eva. I'm learning so much! :D

SeniorFishy

July 29th, 2003, 2:30 pm

Take careful note of the list above. The fundamental arguments in favour of the H/Hr ship.

Clearly and understandably, nobody here is shipping Harry/Ron, and I am sorry to be the one who has to make this point – but it needs saying. How can a case be made for shipping H/Hr on the basis of the above, when a case could be similarly made BASED ON THOSE ARGUMENTS for a relationship between Harry and Ron.

thats preety easy, those aren't the fundemental arguments for the H/Hr ship.

Sarmi

July 29th, 2003, 2:31 pm

Great posts guys!!! I'm so glad we've got these back! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I disagree Sarmi. I do not think it will be Ron. If it is not Harry, it may possibly be Neville.

Believe, I hope that I am wrong, but who knows. If not Harry, then I can see it being one of the other prefects, maybe even Malfoy (god help us all).

However, I did want to bring something up about the Hippogriffs in OotP.

We know that Buckbeak is at 12 Grimmauld Place with Sirius and we know the extensivesness of those symbolisms, but I've also seen two other references to hippogriffs.

Chapter 20 (US Version), page 431

"Hold yer hippogriffs, I haven't finished me story yet!" said Hagrid indignantly . . .

AND

Chapter 23 (US Version), page 512

"And look Broderick, you've been sent a potted plan and a lovely calendar with different fancy hippogriff for each month, they'll brighten things up, won't they?" said the Healer . . .

I don't know what the deal is with all these references to hippogriffs, but it does make you wonder. Is there anything in an earlier book that reference to things in next book? What I mean is that I seem to recall GoF hinting at a mad/insane theme and then we have a very Angry!Harry in OotP.

Sarmi

Mad Eye Mike

July 29th, 2003, 2:40 pm

Okay, not to get terribly off-topic but don't you have to be a prefect first in order to be Head Boy? Also, take notice of how everything Ron saw in the mirror of erised is coming true - in book 7, Ron will be HB. However I felt Ron becoming prefect in OotP was just ridiculous. As soon as I read that I was like WTF?!?

Anyway, back on topic...

Ecthelion

July 29th, 2003, 2:42 pm

Okay, not to get terribly off-topic but don't you have to be a prefect first in order to be Head Boy? Anyway, notice how everything Ron saw in the mirror of erised is coming true? In book 7, Ron will be HB. However I agree that Ron becoming prefect in OotP was just ridiculous to me.

Back on topic...

No actually you don't. James was not elected prefect either yet he acquired the head boy status. So it's been done before without being a prefect first. For my thoughts on who should be head boy, check the whole thread I made devoted to it :)

back on topic....

DumbledoreTheWise

July 29th, 2003, 2:43 pm

From a website on the balance possible with Virgo and Pisces, despite their opposite places within the Zodiac.

Virgo and Pisces
When Virgo and Pisces form a friendship, it generally makes for a good match. The two signs are opposite each other within the Zodiac, and such signs tend to be well-balanced and offer what the other lacks. They are the easy-going, do-gooding duo, committing themselves to serving the community as well as each other. This pair brings out the best in one another -- they're a great combination overall.

Both signs dote on and adore one another. They work toward a harmonious friendship and are basically tolerant and sympathetic people. Virgo can help Pisces fulfill dreams and ambitions and teach them to turn ideas into reality. Virgo will provide a solid, steady base for the more emotional and intuitive Fish. On the other hand, Pisces offers gentleness, kindness and an emotional depth that Virgo admires and appreciates. Virgo is interested in material comforts and, at times, cannot understand the simplistic attitude of Pisces. Their life's aspirations can be very different. Once they can accept and overcome this difference -- and learn to combine their energies -- theirs will be a very rewarding friendship.

Virgo is ruled by Mercury, and Pisces is ruled by Jupiter and Neptune. When Mercury and Neptune come together, a beautiful spiritual connection is made. Together, they represent an idealistic friendship that borders on the divine. Pisces is also ruled by Jupiter. This adds a yang energy to the combination and represents philosophy, expansion and excesses. This trio combines to provide excellent communication, empathy, imagination and creativity.

Ellefire

July 29th, 2003, 2:44 pm

Since everyone above was discussing Harry's, Ron's, and Hermione's zodiac signs you might want to look at this site.
http://astrology.yahoo.com/us/astrology/astrologycenters/romance/compatibility/leo_virgo.html

It examines, astrologically of course, their potential as a couple. Some parts of it screamed H/hr to me.
I'm sorry if you aren't into all the horoscope stuff, i'm not either, but any hint of hope for H/Hr i take.

Take a look if you have the time.
~Elle

Daveydee

July 29th, 2003, 2:48 pm

thats preety easy, those aren't the fundemental arguments for the H/Hr ship.

Er - excuse me! Doth mine eyes deceive me. Have I spent the past four months imagining what has been written in these threads.

Oh go on then- what are they?

Mad Eye Mike

July 29th, 2003, 2:51 pm

No actually you don't. James was not elected prefect either yet he acquired the head boy status. So it's been done before without being a prefect first. For my thoughts on who should be head boy, check the whole thread I made devoted to it :)

back on topic....

I thought that was just a continuity mistake on JKR's part like how she had Dennis Creevey (a 2nd year) go into Hogsmeade.

haycheng

July 29th, 2003, 2:55 pm

Hi, DD
really nice pricture. First, Whenever Harry thinks about Ron, he almost always thinks about Hermione at the same time. Therefore, I believe their current value are about the same at this moment. Ron is indeed Harry's best friend but you seem to forget Harry thinks about Hermione almost as much if no more. Therefore, we know they are all good friend. Then most H/Hr shippers believe that romantic can grow out of friendship(which is the same for R/Hr). And the interaction between H/Hr seem to be more cohensive than R/Hr. I bleive that the reason why people ship H/Hr

Earendil

July 29th, 2003, 2:56 pm

Originally posted by Daveydee
Take careful note of the list above. The fundamental arguments in favour of the H/Hr ship.
With a few omissions. You didn't mention that the two best friends are intellectually on the same wavelength, consistently show that they are mentally in-tune and able to pick up on things that no one else does, are comfortable with displaying physical affection with each other, and and frequently placed in situations with romantic imagery.

Without the points I mentioned above, it would indeed seem that Harry and Hermione have an entirely platonic relationship. The fact is that there are other aspects to their friendship that Harry and Ron do not have; indeed, aspects that Harry shares with no one else.

Sarmi, that's an interesting point about the hippogriffs being mentioned. This could be an example of symbolic foreshadowing for the next book, especially since it goes without saying that book six will contain some more raging hormones. Maybe Harry finally comes to terms with actual love rather than superficial "crush" feelings, as he did in OotP.

On the headboy/prefect thing, just to clarify: Ernie Macmillan was the Hufflepuff prefect and Anthony Goldstein was the Ravenclaw. And we know that James wasn't a prefect but was still Head Boy, so there's still hope for Harry.

And Grace, I have to say :wow: to your sig. Very nice!

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 3:00 pm

Thanks to all for taking time to wade through our posts! And thanks Grace Granger, Earendil, MoF, Aeterna Kai, et al, for your support :)
More on Gateway of Souls and Moon as soon as I locate my refs.

Also Grace Granger: I know you're not picking on our sign ;) It was a goofy ref to FP's post on Lupin/Luna ruling planet & sun sign info, re: needing to stay positive lest we sink into lunacy :lol:
BTW aeterna kai I'm h.o.w.l.'ing for Lupin as we speak...and LOVE your name!
Cheers!

Mad Eye Mike

July 29th, 2003, 3:13 pm

And Grace, I have to say :wow: to your sig. Very nice!

:rotfl: :lol: :D :clap:

Grace knows why I'm laughing at that statement. :agree:

Daveydee

July 29th, 2003, 3:15 pm

With a few omissions. You didn't mention that the two best friends are intellectually on the same wavelength, consistently show that they are mentally in-tune and able to pick up on things that no one else does, are comfortable with displaying physical affection with each other, and and frequently placed in situations with romantic imagery

1. No. Harry and Hermione are not on the same intellectual wavelength. Hermione is far more intellectual than Harry. Harry and Ron, however, are pretty well on a par intellectually.

2. Mentally in tune. I think that I did state in my original post that Harry and Ron are mentally in tune. Just at random (I haven't trawled for these), two quotes from PoA Ch18:

p256:
It took a few seconds for the absurdity of this statement to sink in. Then Ron voiced what Harry was thinking.

p257:
Harry looked down at Ron, and as their eyes met they agreed, silently...

NB: Notice how similar those quotes are to the type of quote used in support of H/Hr. You could almost juxtapose the two.

3. Physical affection - well it's never been a big point in the H/Hr ship as there are few examples in canon. Those which do exist are less physical affection, more tactile concern.

4. Romantic imagery - Moot point and highly subjective. But again never a central plank of the H/Hr ship.

Remember, I've gone with what I have always understood to be the central overriding arguments of your ship, Earendil, having debated with you all at great length over many months.

EDIT:

Without the points I mentioned above, it would indeed seem that Harry and Hermione have an entirely platonic relationship. The fact is that there are other aspects to their friendship that Harry and Ron do not have; indeed, aspects that Harry shares with no one else.

Given that I have now addressed those 4 points, Earendil, I assume you would agree with me that Harry and Hermione do indeed have that entirely platonic relationship. ;)

Grace Granger

July 29th, 2003, 3:42 pm

Earendil Thanks for liking my sig....dear Mike made it for me, that's why he's laughing...lol.

Eva, I got you.

1. No. Harry and Hermione are not on the same intellectual wavelength. Hermione is far more intellectual than Harry. Harry and Ron, however, are pretty well on a par intellectually.

I thought JKR made it seem, in OoP, that Hermione and Harry are intellectually close. Not exactly the same, but close enough. Harry just beat Hermione in DADA classes. He was also going to be Prefect so that has to say that academically he's better than the rest of the Gryffindor boys.

EDIT: BTW, DaveyDee I like your sig. :tu:

AND can we all agree that Hannah and Ernie are definitely a couple? I think they are!

sone

July 29th, 2003, 4:02 pm

Actually they are on the same brain wavelength. The difference between Harry and Hermione as far as intelligence goes is Hermione's studying habits. They are just far better and more dedicated. But in OOTP, it specifically made points that Harry is quite intelligent. We get this from Arabella Figg and even Voldemort himself. But you can see his genius in his teaching ability. Even with the essays Hermione was grading for both of them. Ron had made far more mistakes on his essay than Harry did on his.

Ecthelion

July 29th, 2003, 4:16 pm

1. No. Harry and Hermione are not on the same intellectual wavelength. Hermione is far more intellectual than Harry. Harry and Ron, however, are pretty well on a par intellectually.

Actually they are on the same brain wavelength. The difference between Harry and Hermione as far as intelligence goes is Hermione's studying habits. They are just far better and more dedicated. But in OOTP, it specifically made points that Harry is quite intelligent. We get this from Arabella Figg and even Voldemort himself. But you can see his genius in his teaching ability. Even with the essays Hermione was grading for both of them. Ron had made far more mistakes on his essay than Harry did on his.

Yes, that's true. The main difference between Harry's intelligence and Hermione's....is nothing. The difference comes when the time to use it appears. Harry just isn't dedicated enough or motivated enough to have the study skills and preparation techniques of Hermione. Although he does quite well without them to say the least. As Sone said, he's quite smart and it would be nice to really see him work hard on academics through the whole year...I doubt it though.

2. Mentally in tune. I think that I did state in my original post that Harry and Ron are mentally in tune. Just at random (I haven't trawled for these), two quotes from PoA Ch18:

There is only one problem with that. Most of the situations they are "intune" are the ones that are quite rudimentary and customary for their age....like talking about girls for instance. As a whole, the times when they are intune aren't that serious. When it does get serious, that's when Hermione steps in.

ALSO: Since we're on this topic...I like ALL your sigs! Even Daveydees which I don't particularily conceed with but have to admit it is well done :) :tu:

ALSO#2: Mike, I've never heard of that mistake thing. I'd really like to know for sure though...

Daveydee

July 29th, 2003, 4:17 pm

Thank you for liking my sig, Grace. I like yours too. I think just for one day, sometime, we should all have pics of ourselves in our sigs so we can put faces to names.

Back on topic

I thought JKR made it seem, in OoP, that Hermione and Harry are intellectually close. Not exactly the same, but close enough. Harry just beat Hermione in DADA classes. He was also going to be Prefect so that has to say that academically he's better than the rest of the Gryffindor boys.

Harry does excel at DADA - that much is clear. Completely plot related of course. In pure bookish academic terms, however, both Harry and Ron are indisputably well below Hermione.

EDIT:

Ecthelion,

There is only one problem with that. Most of the situations they are "intune" are the ones that are quite rudimentary and customary for their age....like talking about girls for instance. As a whole, the times when they are intune aren't that serious. When it does get serious, that's when Hermione steps in.

Well, the two examples I've given above were not of the nature you describe. They're actually from the Shrieking Shack scene - fairly serious as I recall. As I said these were just randomly selected examples. I could trawl for more, but I think the point has been made. Harry and Ron are very mentally in tune - as you would expect them to be after years of friendship.

You also mentioned intellectual skills, suggesting Harry and Hermione are on a par. Refer to the above. Also, think History of Magic; Hogwarts: A History; Standard Book of Spells; Arithmancy; Homework.

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 4:20 pm

Sone, Ecthelion: Agreed. Harry is obviously extremely bright but has just been rather unmotivated academically until 5th year.

Also, in the essays in question, Harry made one small oversight: he wrote "ice" as "mice", and Hermione gently jokes that she was sure he didn't mean to do that. On the other hand, Ron had overlooked something more substantive, so Hermione just told him to toss his conclusions and copy verbatum some stuff she wrote out. Also note Hermione took the time to clarify for Harry what she noted or fixed, but for Ron she either didn't care to to explain or couldn't be bothered due to the volume of errors [i.e., due to the huge gap in Ron's understanding, vis-a-vis her own]...

Harry's error stems from carelessness but in no way reflects on his intellectual capacity, whereas Ron's failure to grasp the heart of the issue reflects a gap in said capacity. Not that Ron's dense, but rather that he's just not on their level regarding intellectual capacity. I agree that Hermione's advantage is application and organisation, and Harry could take some lessons from her there. Otherwise the passage symbolically demonstrates these two are well-matched in this arena, as well.

Mega

July 29th, 2003, 4:31 pm

It's pretty obvious that Harry is smarter then Ron and I don't think their is much diffrence between Harry and Hermione's inteligence. Harry (especialy (sp) OotP) has been shown as a smart boy. He was going to be a prefect so me must be one of the smartest in Gryfindor. I agree with Ecthelion that when things get serious Harry and Hermione are normaly on the same wavelength and Ron gets left behind.

Grace Granger

July 29th, 2003, 4:34 pm

Sone, Ecthelion: Agreed. Harry is obviously extremely bright but has just been rather unmotivated academically until 5th year.
<snip>
Harry's error stems from carelessness but in no way reflects on his intellectual capacity, whereas Ron's failure to grasp the heart of the issue reflects a gap in said capacity. Not that Ron's dense, but rather that he's just not on their level regarding intellectual capacity. I agree that Hermione's advantage is application and organisation, and Harry could take some lessons from her there. Otherwise the passage symbolically demonstrates these two are well-matched in this arena, as well.

Taking off my 00 outfit. It was getting a bit too tight for me! I have to agree with sone, Earendil and eva, I was just trying to be fair when in reality after OoP, I got the impression that Harry is very smart, just lazy. Can't blame him! :p

DD, putting pics of ourselves in the sig section is a pretty nice idea. I'm down if everyone else is! :D

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 4:47 pm

MEM we agree on something! I also though it was a continuation mistake.

About the Prefect to clarify my point and then we can carry on.

I think Ron is a better prefect because he is a people person. I think it's an EXCELLENT idea to have the Ron and Hermione combination. While the "Midgets" relax the tense ambiance of the first night in a strange place. The 'Ron' sets out a more formal tone.
Harry is not a people person. It would have been very dificult for him. Look in the train station how Ginny helps him with his pittyness of riding the train alone. She ask him to follow her and look for a compartment so they could save a seat to R/Hr. Which is what creates the sextect. I think that Ron also is best at HB. Because Harry is going to be quite busy with some other stuff.

Gily Ann

Earendil

July 29th, 2003, 4:49 pm

Originally posted by Daveydee
1. No. Harry and Hermione are not on the same intellectual wavelength. Hermione is far more intellectual than Harry. Harry and Ron, however, are pretty well on a par intellectually.

My mistake for using "intellect" in that context rather than "intelligence". Hermione is more intellectual than both Harry and Ron in that she applies her intelligence to schoolwork and takes a keen interest in learning. Harry and Hermione, however, exhibit similar qualities of innate intelligence and superior thinking. Hermione herself admitted that Harry is more skilled at DADA than she is, and (as sone and Ecthelion already pointed out) we've seen evidence of others perceiving Harry as being intelligent. Harry and Hermione often figure things out long before Ron catches up. I'll cite examples from all five books if necessary.

2. Mentally in tune. I think that I did state in my original post that Harry and Ron are mentally in tune.

Again, I could go through and list all the examples of Harry and Hermione seeming to read each other's minds, speak at the same time, finish each other's sentences, or behave instinctively without even needing to verbally communicate.

I know this wasn't the point of Daveydee's original post, but I find it interesting that it can be established that Harry and Ron are mentally in-tune and that Harry and Hermione are mentally in-tune--yet we rarely see Hermione and Ron exhibiting this trait. While I understand that the point was to show that Hermione is as platonic a friend to Harry as Ron is, I still noticed that between the two couples being debated here (R/Hr vs. H/Hr) Harry and Hermione are the ones who are mentally in-tune.

Back on track:
3. Physical affection - well it's never been a big point in the H/Hr ship as there are few examples in canon. Those which do exist are less physical affection, more tactile concern.

Few. Hmmm. Again, I should have been more specific in my post. Not only are they comfortable with displaying physical affection; Hermione especially has established a pattern of literally reaching for Harry in times of tension and anxiety, and in OotP Harry began to reciprocate this action. Just say the word and I'll cite all the examples we have so far of all physical interactions between Harry and Hermione.

4. Romantic imagery - Moot point and highly subjective. But again never a central plank of the H/Hr ship.

Subjective, true. Romantic imagery is a strong argument for H/Hr, and there is also some arguable imagery for H/G. However, there doesn't seem to be any for R/Hr--or if there is, I haven't seen it mentioned thus far. Since there is so much interpretive romantic imagery for H/Hr, it is actually one of our central points for the couple that cannot be applied to Harry's and Ron's friendship in any way.

Given that I have now addressed those 4 points, Earendil, I assume you would agree with me that Harry and Hermione do indeed have that entirely platonic relationship. ;)

Given that I have now addressed the 4 points you addressed, Daveydee, I would assume that in my eyes Harry and Hermione are anything but entirely platonic friends, and that you will disagree with me on this. :D

Ecthelion

July 29th, 2003, 4:58 pm

About the Prefect to clarify my point and then we can carry on.

I think Ron is a better prefect because he is a people person. I think it's an EXCELLENT idea to have the Ron and Hermione combination. While the "Midgets" relax the tense ambiance of the first night in a strange place. The 'Ron' sets out a more formal tone.
Harry is not a people person. It would have been very dificult for him. Look in the train station how Ginny helps him with his pittyness of riding the train alone. She ask him to follow her and look for a compartment so they could save a seat to R/Hr. Which is what creates the sextect. I think that Ron also is best at HB. Because Harry is going to be quite busy with some other stuff.

You know, your perfectly right that Ron is much more social than Harry. However, people look up to Harry as they never will for Ron regardless of what he does. He is a natural leader. If he leads, they follow. Just take the DA club for an example. His introductions and social skills were horrible! Yet, because of who he is, his firery disposition, and pretense that dignifies him as a born leader, they followed and obeyed him almost unquestionally. These very talents and god-given gifts that he has are the exact same ones that makes me think that Harry should and will get the head boy spot. With his influence and capabilities of leading people, Harry is the perfect person to lead and pull the school through these Dark days.

I just really don't think Hogwarts strictly needs a "people person" to wade them through these horrible years. They need someone who they look up to and will undoubtably follow to the end. Whether they notice this or not, Dumbledore does. Sometimes what they want isn't necissarily what they need. They need Harry.

Daveydee

July 29th, 2003, 4:58 pm

Given that I have now addressed the 4 points you addressed, Daveydee, I would assume that in my eyes Harry and Hermione are anything but entirely platonic friends, and that you will disagree with me on this. :D

:agree: How did you guess, Earendil?

It is interesting, however, that we appear to have narrowed down the bases on which a Harry and Hermione relationship might stand, by highlighting how those same bases apply to Harry's friendship with Ron.

I mean, if all it boils down to is their respective intellectual prowess...

Young_Prodigy

July 29th, 2003, 5:02 pm

Few. Hmmm. Again, I should have been more specific in my post. Not only are they comfortable with displaying physical affection; Hermione especially has established a pattern of literally reaching for Harry in times of tension and anxiety, and in OotP Harry began to reciprocate this action. Just say the word and I'll cite all the examples we have so far of all physical interactions between Harry and Hermione.

I ideas in this thread are so cool, Earendil you sparked my curosity concerning H/Hr with the physical interaction point. I havent read all the books as many times as everyone else, but if you could list a few of the interactions you were talking about if its not too much trouble.

Excellent post concering their relationship

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6965&stc=1

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 5:06 pm

You know, your perfectly right that Ron is much more social than Harry. However, people look up to Harry as they never will for Ron regardless of what he does. He is a natural leader. If he leads, they follow. Just take the DA club for an example. His introductions and social skills were horrible! Yet, because of who he is, his firery disposition, and pretense that dignifies him as a born leader, they followed and obeyed him almost unquestionally. These very talents and god-given gifts that he has are the exact same ones that makes me think that Harry should and will get the head boy spot. With his influence and capabilities of leading people, Harry is the perfect person to lead and pull the school through these Dark days.

I just really don't think Hogwarts strictly needs a "people person" to wade them through these horrible years. They need someone who they look up to and will undoubtably follow to the end. Whether they notice this or not, Dumbledore does. Sometimes what they want isn't necissarily what they need. They need Harry.

But he didn't do that on his own. He did that because Hermione and Ron believed he could do it. Out of his own iniciative he wouldn't have started. In fact he was quite put out about the subject. People may think Harry is great but to for him to be able to lead people he will initiative and confidence in himself something Harry lacks abismally. Granted Ron does also. But being a people person helps out a lot. I still think that Ron and Hermione are better choice. I somehow picture Harry on something else not HB.

BTW I just realized something. This is horribly off topic!

Just to jump back on the thread theme.

Does anyone still think that Draco may fall for Hermione?

Gily Ann

Buckbeak

July 29th, 2003, 5:17 pm

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 5:22 pm

Quote:

I agree with you that Harry would not be where he was, in fact he probably wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for Ron and Hermione. Just thought id add that.

~~~

Sad but true!

Yes there is this Rumor going around that Hermione and Draco's hate will turn into love by the end of the series. It's becoming stronger as the books pass by. So does anyone sees a chance of this happening. This on assuming based on Pride and Prejudice. I haven't read the novel. I just want to know if someone can see that happening.

Gily Ann

LizardLaugh

July 29th, 2003, 5:24 pm

I don't see Harry as Head Boy either. Personally, I think it is a **** job anyway.

I do think Harry is a good leader though. Yes, he needed that prod from Hermione and Ron, but he really came into his own and gained a great deal of confidence. I hope the DA continues.

Does anyone still think Draco will fall for Hermione? Er, not me. As much as the fandom seems to adore Draco, I think he will remain a 2D, unredeemed little snot.

Wow! The thread is back! I admit to not reading through the whole thing, but I will say that while I will ship H/Hr to the bloody end, I have become a great deal more open minded about shipping in general. In OotP, I see evidence for H/Hr and R/Hr. I also was glad to see Ginny get a personality, and while I don't ship H/G, I wouldn't be opposed to it at this point either. In fact, I don't think I would be opposed to any ship that happened in canon. There is enough evidence out there that H/Hr, R/Hr and/or H/G would be believable. Sure, I still prefer H/Hr for any number of reasons, but I am not going to let myself get so emotionally invested in it happening in canon.

potterfreak24

July 29th, 2003, 5:28 pm

Quote:
Sad but true!

Yes there is this Rumor going around that Hermione and Draco's hate will turn into love by the end of the series. It's becoming stronger as the books pass by. So does anyone sees a chance of this happening. This on assuming based on Pride and Prejudice. I haven't read the novel. I just want to know if someone can see that happening.

Gily Ann

God help us all if that's the case. I can see the comment being made about Pride and Prejudice. It's about a girl (elizabeth) who begins to like this man (Mr. Darcy). She's (I don't want to say poor, but her family makes ends meet every month) Mr. Darcy has money. They despise each other because of their backrounds, and because Mr. Darcy is a nasty little git. :)

Mr. Darcy also tells his best guy friend not to marry Elizabeth's sister becuase she does not come from wealth. Eventhough his best friend and Liz's sister have fallen madly in love with each other.

If I'm not mistaken (haven't read it in 6 years) mr Darcy and Elizabeth agree to disagree and become civil to each other....but nothing more.

Hope this helps with this one....

I personally don't see hermione/draco happening

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 5:33 pm

:welcome: Welcome to the love thread Aeterna! I was wondering when you'd finally stumble on in here :p And don't worry, i'm pretty sure Ron follows the 3 book crush theory! ;)

On the subject of Hermione and Draco, no. For that, we are asking that Hermione forget Draco's prejudice against her(mudblood) and his poor treatment of both herself and her friends and go out with him. I also feel that there is simply no way for Draco to be redeemed in two books. As seen in OOTP, he appears to be very much in agreement with the actions of his father as a Death Eater and seems to want revenge for Harry putting him in Azkaban. My guess is we'll see an even more evil Draco in the next book. A Draco that is not just seeking to cause trouble for the trio, but one who is out for revenge.

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 5:33 pm

God help us all if that's the case. I can see the comment being made about Pride and Prejudice. It's about a girl (elizabeth) who begins to like this man (Mr. Darcy). She's (I don't want to say poor, but her family makes ends meet every month) Mr. Darcy has money. They despise each other because of their backrounds, and because Mr. Darcy is a nasty little git. :)

Mr. Darcy also tells his best guy friend not to marry Elizabeth's sister becuase she does not come from wealth. Eventhough his best friend and Liz's sister have fallen madly in love with each other.

If I'm not mistaken (haven't read it in 6 years) mr Darcy and Elizabeth agree to disagree and become civil to each other....but nothing more.

Hope this helps with this one....

I personally don't see hermione/draco happening

Ohhh! It's get civilized! I'm currently on the first pages and I though . . . JKR does seem to like bickering couples. Emma was horrible. IMHO. **Ducks at flying tomatoes**

Question: Do Mr. Darcy (the git) marries Elizabeth?

Gily Ann

Sirius83 trust me at least the first pages. They hate each other like Hermione and draco

potterfreak24

July 29th, 2003, 5:34 pm

Gily Ann:

No Mr Darcy and Elizabeth do NOT marry.

They actually just agree to disagree and act civil around each other because Mr Darcy's best friend, and Liz's sister do get married...so they (Darcy and Liz) agree to 'play nice' when they are around each other.

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 5:38 pm

Gily Ann:

No Mr Darcy and Elizabeth do NOT marry.

WHAT!!!!

::: Breath Gily! Breath!!!

Ok What is the purpose of this ******** thing?

I'm going to eat it!

Gily Ann

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 5:41 pm

I simply cannot see JKR going that route at all. The redeemed Draco theory may have been plausible in POA. Even in GOF. However, in OOTP, i simply see no way that is possible.

Now another thing. Regarding Harry and Hermione only showing traits of friendship between each other. Truth is, the same goes with Hermione towards Ron. Hermione has yet to show anything but friendship towards Ron. Additionally, while i don't wish to bring the PKA up again, Hermione did not act like a girl with strictly platonic feelings towards Harry. The descriptions of her JKR used gives it away. There's also that little bit that while Hermione spoke to Harry about it, she also did not offer him any advice whatsoever. Just as there are signs of Ron -> Hermione, there are also signs of Hermione -> Harry. The "just friends" card only works one way in both instances as of OOTP.

However, the difference? I once again haul out the instances of Cho becoming Hermione and Harry having a voice in his head that speaks in Hermione's voice. These speak volumes about his subconcious, really.

Buckbeak

July 29th, 2003, 5:43 pm

iv never read it but i thought they do get married :shrug:

sone

July 29th, 2003, 5:43 pm

Well Gily, that is why Harry is not ready yet to defeat Voldemort. But we are getting off topic. I'll try steering this a little bit. Harry is more powerful, capable and intelligent than he realizes. This is yet another reason why Harry needs Hermione and why they would make such a good couple. Hermione sees all this potential in Harry before he does. Ron is a better people person but he is not a leader. Harry is and Hermione sees this and this why she even talked to him in the first place about being a teacher. Hermione brings out the best in Harry even in some of the worst times. Even when he lost his temper, it again was Hermione who knew exactly what to say. This is where Ron does fall away from the trio because while he may catch up in the middle of Harry and Hermione, he is rarely there from the beginning. That is not because he is stupid but because Harry and Hermione are more like each other than Ron is like either of them.

Earendil

July 29th, 2003, 5:47 pm

Originally posted by Daveydee
I mean, if all it boils down to is their respective intellectual prowess...

And it doesn't. Hermione is a friend to Harry in much of the same ways that Ron is: the difference being that there are signs of attraction, mostly on Hermione's part, for Harry. I don't see it as a negative point at all that Hermione and Ron exhibit similar qualities of deep friendship; rather, it's a bonus. Hermione already has something that other potential girls don't have. On top of this already strong foundation of friendship, there is evidence that has already been mentioned in favor of romantic feelings between Harry and Hermione.

Originally posted by Young Prodigy
I ideas in this thread are so cool, Earendil you sparked my curosity concerning H/Hr with the physical interaction point. I havent read all the books as many times as everyone else, but if you could list a few of the interactions you were talking about if its not too much trouble.

Sure. I don't have my books handy at the moment, so I'll try to list as many as I can off the top of my head:

**SS/PS, "Through the Trapdoor": Hermione looked at him, her lip trembling, and suddenly flung her arms around his neck.
**PoA, "Flight of the Fat Lady": "Oh, my--" Hermione grabbed Harry's arm.
**PoA, 'Cat, Rat, and Dog": Hermione was now gripping Harry's arm so tight that he was starting to lose feeling in it. He looked at her, eyebrows raised. She nodded and let go.
**PoA, "Hermione's Secret": The entire scene in the cupboard, the forest, and Buckbeak
**GoF, "The Dark Mark": "Harry, come on, move!" Hermione was tugging hard on Harry's arm. Harry looked at her, startled to see her face so white and scared. "What?" he asked. "The Dark Mark, Harry!" Hermione moaned. "It's You-Know-Who's sign!"
**OotP, "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place": ..Harry's vision was obscured by a large quantity of bushy hair. "HARRY! Ron, Harry's here!" Hermione Granger had thrown herself at him in a hug that nearly knocked him flat.
**OotP, "Professor Umbridge": "Harry, sit down!" Hermione whispered, attempting to pull him back into his seat.
**OotP, "Grawp": Hagrid stopped so abruptly that Hermione walked right into him and was knocked backwards. Harry caught her just before she hit the forest floor. "Good!" she said as Harry set her back on her feet.
**OotP, "Grawp": "BAD BOY, GRAWPY!" Hagrid shouted as Hermione clung to Harry behind the tree, shaking and whimpering.
**OotP, "Fight and Flight": "Goodness," said Hermione, gripping Harry's arm painfully tight, "he--he remembered!"
**OotP, "The Department of Mysteries": Hermione grabbed Harry's arm, as though afraid that the floor might start moving too.
**OotP, "The Department of Mysteries": Hermione made as if to seize Harry's arm, but he moved out of her reach.
**OotP, "Beyond the Veil": Harry seized a handful of Hermione's robes and dragged her forward.

My apologies if I missed anything or mangled the quotes beyond recognition. Young Prodigy, I hope that helps. :)

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 5:47 pm

Quote:

However, the difference? I once again haul out the instances of Cho becoming Hermione and Harry having a voice in his head that speaks in Hermione's voice. These speak volumes about his subconcious, really.

~~~

I think this is terrible for a H/Hr pair. Why would it be good?

Gily Ann

GryffindorGal

July 29th, 2003, 5:51 pm

Neville isn't even a prefect so how will he become head boy?

Neither was James according to OotP but in SS/PS Hagrid tells us that both James and Lily were Head Boy/Girl. As I recall Sirius reassured Harry that James wasn't a prefect either and that gives me the impression that Harry was disappointed not to be living up to his father's memory. So if Harry was worried about that, he most likely had to have been under the impression that James was a prefect. And there's a good chance that he came to that conclusion because James was Head Boy.

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 5:53 pm

Why is it terrible? Harry's crush was Cho. At that point in time he had not fallen out with her. But she turned into Hermione. Harry's crush turns into Hermione. Hemrione becomes Harry's next crush. Also, he has a part of his mind that speaks in Hermione's voice. I mean really, that's not exactly a just friends thing. She's inside his head, that says a lot.

marspeach

July 29th, 2003, 5:54 pm

This is kinda off-topic, but I just wanted to point out that, yes, Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy DO get married at the end of Pride and Prejudice. They do not just agree to disagree, Mr. Darcy was in love with Elizabeth for a long time AND she fell in love with him which is why she told his aunt that she could accept his proposal if she wanted. Also, Mr. Darcy is not a git! He said he only told Bingley not to marry Jane because he didn't think their romance was serious!

I think I'm becoming an H/Hr shipper after seeing that picture from the PoA movie. It's stupid I know. Oh well, if I can be both N/G and H/G, then I can be H/Hr too. I'm weird that way.

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 5:58 pm

I'm confused, but what bearing does another story have on HP? This is the Harry Potter story not Pride and Prejudice...

LizardLaugh

July 29th, 2003, 6:01 pm

RE: the dream... well, it was a dream rife with Freudian symbolism. I wouldn't say it was good or bad for the H/Hr ship, but it was certainly, erm, interesting. Of course, it must be asked.. what the heck was Hermione doing in Harry's sexually charged dream? Can't elaborate more without breaking the G-rating rule here.

RE: Hermione as Harry's Voice of Reason. I think this one is most excellent. Hermione has had this symbolic role from the beginning, but now she's in Harry's head. Also, he is starting to appreciate her more. He knows she is right. He is starting to admit to himself exactly what JKR said -- that he desperately needs her. Can't see that as anything but good for the H/Hr ship.

Earindel -- Hermione does seem to cling to Harry in a crisis, doesn't she?

sone

July 29th, 2003, 6:03 pm

All the time it seems LL.

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 6:04 pm

First I did maybe agree if Harry did know Hermione that less like Cho than yeah H/Hr would never happen but the case is that this little day the october 31 1991 came into Harrys live and he found together with Ron his second best friend. Its ironic that they find her in the bathroom with a troll. I mean in GoF say Ron he won't end up with a pair of trolls. Just curious.
Well this isn't really the ironic part. Its much more that the troll went straight into exactly this bathroom where Hermione is sitting. Its even ironic thats the very same day as 10 years before a even ugly wizard but very clever and powerful (what the troll not is) make his way to the Godric Hollow and killed Harrys parents. Even more ironic is that Harry as wizard don't use his wand he put it into the trolls nose. IMO this scene is kinda interest. There is something with it what I can't put a finger on it. Well, maybe its the fact that both boys did bring themself into dangerous but Harry brought himself much more into danger. I mean he jumps on the troll he could use his wand. This is very similar to the later scene about the devils snare.

Between isn't interest that in Ootp the devils snare actuelly someone kills? And that in ST. Mungos too Harry saw a woman which had permament a hairy face like Hermione in COS? Or that Harry remember all this little things like this spell for his glasses or Norbert or the polyjuice potion? All this is in OotP its nearly as if this is a good bye to something?
Seriously I really think in book 6 will something happen, something what I don't like. There is something in the air I don't know what.

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 6:11 pm

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 6:17 pm

I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’

You know on what this remind me? At this arguement if they should go look after Sirius or not. All what Hermione said was rather to defence Harry than to work with together and search or rescue Sirius. Well, somehow mis-translated though she change her thoughts and helps him.

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 6:20 pm

Yeah, i also thoght that it was something like that, but I couldn't find anything from the book to support it

Turambar

July 29th, 2003, 6:29 pm

Does JKR mention Ron's birthday/star sign in any of the books or is that something she confirmed in an interview?

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 6:35 pm

marspeach, Yes, thank you!

Sirius83:
Pride and Prejudice is from Jane Austen also the Author of Emma. They hate each other and they seem to resemble Hermione and Draco. It's one of JKR favorites. It all started when I asked if anyone though that Hermione and Draco had any posibility. Over at TLC someone though they had a resemblance.

The dream:

Hermione turning into Cho I consider it a bad thing. Cho is a failing relationship. From the moment Cho kissed Harry she failed on Harry's eyes. She dissapointed him and that is what set's Harry's crush down. He began to loose interest in her. She was constantly doing stuff that Harry thought were senseless. Hermione turning into Cho would represent the same thing a failing relationship who is always doing senseless stuff. Hermione is put at level with Cho in here. In areas were Ginny is made superior than Cho.

Gily Ann

FlyingPhoenix

July 29th, 2003, 6:48 pm

Turumbar: Its Pieces. Born March 1st. She did mention it in an interview like Hermiones birthday

sone

July 29th, 2003, 6:51 pm

Cho turning into Hermione to me is a sign from his subconscious of who Harry should be looking at and the person whose voice is in his head. Maybe his subconscious noticed that Hermione did not at all smile about him and Cho kissing.

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 6:51 pm

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 6:53 pm

Turambar

July 29th, 2003, 6:53 pm

That was nice work earlier on the star signs FP and Evaluna.

There's a reference to Mercury in GOF Ch The Unforgivable Curses:
"OK on Monday I will be in danger of burns."
"Yeah you will,' said Ron darkly, 'we're seeing the Skrewts again. OK Tuesday I'll erm..."
"Lose a treasured possession," said Harry.
"Good one," said Ron. "Because of erm Mercury. Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?"
"Yeah cool" said Harry, "Because Venus is in the 12th house."

This is just before Harry and Ron's falling out.
Previously I thought the burns was possibly a reference to the dragons in the first task, Ron losing a treasured possession (Harry's friendship) and Harry being stabbed in the back (by Ron) in reference to their fight.
Now I'm not so sure. Trelawney's prediction of death when Harry and Ron got up from the table is a reference to a future book if it means anything at all. Maybe the Mercury reference likewise is to do with future events.
Perhaps it is saying that Ron will lose a treasured possession because of Hermione and Harry will be betrayed by a friend because of love.
BTW Trelawney was right again in OOTP: she warned Umbridge she was in grave danger. Makes you wonder about the other major prediction she made: Harry living long, becoming Minister of Magic and having 12 kids.

EDIT: Thanks FP. The reason I asked is that Harry's birthday is mentioned in the books and Hermione's birth month (Sept) is mentioned in POA. Seeing as how there does appear to be some significance attached to the star signs it's interesting that we have had this mentioned IN THE BOOKS so that people can find clues. Yet Ron's birthday is info that came from an interview. It's a bit like the reference to Hermione nearly being sorted into Ravenclaw. That's clearly put in for a reason.

EricaM

July 29th, 2003, 7:03 pm

Time for me to mention something which has been nagging me for quite some time:

’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’

- OWLs, p. 631, UK Edition

Do you think JKR was trying to tell us something here? Should I just go early to bed? I just thoght it was interesting that out of 34.567 words (that was just a random count) Hermione had to confuse partnership with defence.

Actually, I thought that this may be significant too and I went surfing for the runes on the web. I found some things of interest.
Eihwaz, the rune of defense, is associated with the Yew tree (as in Voldies wand wood) and looks remarkably like a 'lightning' bolt.

http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/eiwaz.htm

Ehwaz, the rune for partnership also has keywords trust and loyalty
http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/ehwaz.htm

Erica

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 7:09 pm

However, theres not much room left for another failed relationship. Fact is that it's the symbolism involved. Harry's love interest turned into Hermione. The relationship with Cho had not been failing at the time of that dream. Interestingly enough, it failed BECAUSE of Hermione.

Interesting that Harry at the end of OoP feels that there is a marked person. He doesn't confide in his friends. He is still remembering Hermione telling him of his love of playing the hero. This could also mean that it could be the start of a fall out between Harry and his friends. Cho's relationship with Harry started failing from the moment she kissed him. She failed at Harry's expectations.

Gily Ann

Auror77

July 29th, 2003, 7:11 pm

I got another H/Hr reference point. In Chapter 32 of the American book-"Out of the Fire" pages 746 to 747, Umbridge is about to perform the Cruticious Curse on Harry. After Umbridge reveals that she released the Dementors on him that summer, she turns to perform it, then.....

And taking a deep breath, she cried, "Cruc-"
"NO!" shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind Millicent Bulstrode.
"No-Harry, we'll have to tell her!"
"No way!" yelled Harry, staring at the little of Hermione he could see.
"We'll have to, Harry, she'll force it out of you anyway, what's... what's the point...?"
And Hermione began to cry weakly into the back of Millicent Bulstrode's robes.

I think that indicates something, what do you guys think???

Ecthelion

July 29th, 2003, 7:11 pm

But he didn't do that on his own. He did that because Hermione and Ron believed he could do it. Out of his own iniciative he wouldn't have started. In fact he was quite put out about the subject. People may think Harry is great but to for him to be able to lead people he will initiative and confidence in himself something Harry lacks abismally. Granted Ron does also. But being a people person helps out a lot. I still think that Ron and Hermione are better choice. I somehow picture Harry on something else not HB.

You see, you've nailed it right on the head. Of course Harry doesn't volunteer to be a leader...it would just mean more attention. Everybody, including Ron, Hermione, Dean, and more than likely Ginny knows that he does not want more fame. But the thing is, once he is put too it, he succeeds. As in the DA. We have no reason to think that it can't happen as head boy. You say he lacks confidence. That's only his own product of him trying to be modest. He knows he's good at that stuff but he's going to deny it. It's only natural for him to do this since he's done it for 5 years. And plus, that's what he's got friends for, to help him gain confidence when needed. However, regardless of all these contridictions...point taken :)

By the way, what do you picture Harry in if not head boy?

And on topic....

’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz

Yes, that is interesting....However, it can be interpreted a lot of ways so I'll just leave it at that. Nice catch though!

However:

You know on what this remind me? At this arguement if they should go look after Sirius or not. All what Hermione said was rather to defence Harry than to work with together and search or rescue Sirius. Well, somehow mis-translated though she change her thoughts and helps him.

I think that is a reliable answer!

And in regards to the Dream:

However, the difference? I once again haul out the instances of Cho becoming Hermione and Harry having a voice in his head that speaks in Hermione's voice. These speak volumes about his subconcious, really.

ok...and then you said:

Hermione turning into Cho I consider it a bad thing.

Alright, which dream have you been talking about the whole time?

Anyways, talking about your first quote there, I think it is a good sign that she was even in that dream. I mean, this was Harry's "sexually charged dream" about his 3-year crush. That's saying something if you ask me and it isn't saying something bad.

EDIT: Erica, nice research! :clap:

MoF

July 29th, 2003, 7:13 pm

MoF, FP: random thought -- does it have anything to do with Harry noticing in his Astronomy Practicals that he had mislabeled Venus as Mars? Same kind of error...but even more a romantic implication, possibly. That these two are so busy trying to focus on war and defense (DADA, Harry's safety, etc), that they are ignoring a larger truth, their feelings for each other, that in fact could be their salvation?

Oh! Great eveluna! I didn't think about that. That really makes sense. Harry confused war and love, and Hermione confused partnership and defence. I think you are on to something. :clap:

EricaM:
Nice research on the runes. :clap: I just though that JKR made these runes up. I should be pretty emberassed, considering that these runes come from my own (scandinavian) mythology. Ehwaz describes conditions in Harry and Hermione's relationships nicely.

Sirius83

July 29th, 2003, 7:16 pm

Interesting that Harry at the end of OoP feels that there is a marked person. He doesn't confide in his friends. He is still remembering Hermione telling him of his love of playing the hero. This could also mean that it could be the start of a fall out between Harry and his friends. Cho's relationship with Harry started failing from the moment she kissed him. She failed at Harry's expectations.

I do think Harry may want to distance himself from his friends but i don't see it happening. For one, he was supposed to distance himself in OOTP but couldn't. Additionally, while Ron may be quick to avoid problems if Harry tries to isolate himself, can you really see Hermione just letting Harry do that?

Cho may have failed Harry's expectations, but at the end of the day, the reason they broke up was Cho couldn't stand his closeness with Hermione.

Mad Eye Mike

July 29th, 2003, 7:17 pm

The dream:

Hermione turning into Cho I consider it a bad thing. Cho is a failing relationship. From the moment Cho kissed Harry she failed on Harry's eyes. She dissapointed him and that is what set's Harry's crush down. He began to loose interest in her. She was constantly doing stuff that Harry thought were senseless. Hermione turning into Cho would represent the same thing a failing relationship who is always doing senseless stuff. Hermione is put at level with Cho in here. In areas were Ginny is made superior than Cho.

I wonder if you would've had this same interpretation of Harry's dream if Cho had turned into Ginny.

Btw, if Hermione is being put on the same level with Cho and Ginny is superior to Cho then you're saying Ginny is superior to Hermione. I'm just curious, in what possible way is Ginny superior to Hermione?

Turambar

July 29th, 2003, 7:19 pm

Nice work Erica.

Hawk 92

July 29th, 2003, 7:22 pm

*Hawk steps back into the forum having run the last Teletubbie down. Quietly reflects that the Teletubbies moved faster than this thread. And wonders what the sharp, pointy, evil, looking, thingy is that Ecthelion is carring is?*

Now for the customary :clap: :clap: :clap:

to all the H/HR shippers,

And a :clap: :clap: to 00FP, 00evaluna, 00Lleyki, Turambar and others!!

Extends a :welcome: to Marspeach. Perdita will give the traditional HMS Harmony welcome aboard speech later. Good to have you with us.

I would reply to Davedee's posts earlier but the posts have confused me slightly. And after having read them 3 times, I'm still confused so I'll wait for some clarity before I respond. See to me it seems like whats being said is that a couple shouldn't be like best friends. Now I've often been curious on when one draws the line between good friends and romantic friends.

And I don't understand how comparing Harry/Ron with Harry/Hermione is working because it has a huge omission. The fact that Harry/Ron are both boys and that Harry/Hermione is a boy/girl. So the theory omits that Hermione is a girl.

But it wasn't directed at me.

Cheers!

*Hawk wonders about enlisting Barney or the Wiggles if the Teletubbies return*

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 7:29 pm

Turambar, Hawk, MoF thanks very much. And ErickaM -- awesome! A lightning bolt, eh? ;)
Sirius & Mad Eye, I missed you guys! Great posts, all my fellow shippers!

Original post by Turambar
"Yeah you will,' said Ron darkly, 'we're seeing the Skrewts again. OK Tuesday I'll erm..."
"Lose a treasured possession," said Harry.
"Good one," said Ron. "Because of erm Mercury. Why don't you get stabbed in the back by someone you thought was a friend?"
"Yeah cool" said Harry, "Because Venus is in the 12th house."

Trelawney's prediction of death when Harry and Ron got up from the table is a reference to a future book if it means anything at all. Maybe the Mercury reference likewise is to do with future events.
Perhaps it is saying that Ron will lose a treasured possession because of Hermione and Harry will be betrayed by a friend because of love.

BTW Trelawney was right again in OOTP: she warned Umbridge she was in grave danger. Makes you wonder about the other major prediction she made: Harry living long, becoming Minister of Magic and having 12 kids.

And in your concise but brilliant discussion of some "Big Hints re: Harry", you have hit on one of my most secret and hidden clues: Trelawney's prediction. I often noted that the truth regarding Trelawney's predections always outs itself in the end, even though she herself often fails to understand the significance of her predictions. I saw that prediction regarding Harry's future and I almost sang out loud ;) Of course, I think your're right on target with your explanation of Ron losing Hermione and, unfortunately, Harry suffering betrayal at a friend's hand, probably as a result of Ron's realisation of where Hermione's heart lies.

Regarding Ron's sun sign being Pisces:

Original post by Turambar
Seeing as how there does appear to be some significance attached to the star signs it's interesting that we have had this mentioned IN THE BOOKS so that people can find clues. Yet Ron's birthday is info that came from an interview. It's a bit like the reference to Hermione nearly being sorted into Ravenclaw. That's clearly put in for a reason.

I think I may understand the reason..possibly. If we looking for the symbolic sacrificial lamb [in Christianity, this figure is associated with Pisces, taken from the Age of Pisces, being associated with the ruling sign of the Great Year when the historical and religious figure of Jesus was born], this figure could be Ron. The end of the Age of Pisces has only recently begun [transitioning in retrograde to herald the Age of Aquarius], as each age in the Great Year of [29K+ ?] years lasts a few thousand+ years. Alright, noddwyd, yeah, sadly I guess I do agree that there probably will be a death in the trio. And I feel more that I must go with Ron, not Harry. I wasn't aware of Ron's sun sign previously, being that, as Turambar said, it was "slipped in" during an interview. Since this is a birthday and not a ship hint, I don't think JKR is kidding. Though I somehow believe that Ron will redeem himself in the end, because Ron's not intrinsically evil but rather just weaker. Ron just doesn't have the hot flame of righteousness to guide his soul [yes I'm borrowing] as the other two do. But somehow in the end I think he may find it. And if it is Ron that dies, hopefully he will at least have found a true love with Luna first, yeah?

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 7:38 pm

I wonder if you would've had this same interpretation of Harry's dream if Cho had turned into Ginny.

Btw, if Hermione is being put on the same level with Cho and Ginny is superior to Cho then you're saying Ginny is superior to Hermione. I'm just curious, in what possible way is Ginny superior to Hermione?

Yes I would see it the same way. I never said that Hermione is superior to Ginny. The comparison is linked to Cho directly. She never compares directly Hermione to Ginny. She compares directly Cho to Hermione and Cho to Ginny. But not directly to each other. JKR has never made either Hermione or Ginny superior to one another. On the contrary she has gone to great extent to make them friends, partners in crime and very fond of each other. But compare to Cho, Hermione is at level with cho making her an unsuitable partner and Ginny is made superior to Cho make her a more suitable partner.

Gily Ann

Mad Eye Mike

July 29th, 2003, 7:55 pm

<edit> I never said that Hermione is superior to Ginny. The comparison is linked to Cho directly. She never compares directly Hermione to Ginny. She compares directly Cho to Hermione and Cho to Ginny. But not directly to each other. JKR has never made either Hermione or Ginny superior to one another. On the contrary she has gone to great extent to make them friends, partners in crime and very fond of each other. But compare to Cho, Hermione is at level with cho making her an unsuitable partner and Ginny is made superior to Cho make her a more suitable partner.

Huh?

Btw, I never said that you said Hermione was superior to Ginny.

AvadaKedavra

July 29th, 2003, 8:01 pm

Hi, y'all

good posts everyone, especially the great duel between Earendil and Davydee

:clap:

Well, I've just done a search on the web, and all searches of star signs and romantic matches between Leo-Virgo and Pisces-Virgo.

The results?

Well, it's a bit of a mixed bag- like Divination. :p

I think JKR chose their birthdays/star signs with their character in mind, not their romantic possibilites, though I could be wrong.

The odd thing is, through all the info I looked through- neither Pisces or Leo seemed to be a perfect match for Virgo.

Anyway, Hawk.

I’m answering for Davydee here, so if you don’t mind me butting in. Davydee, of course, is welcome to dismiss my answer if it isn’t exactly along the lines he is thinking and it in any way undermines him. Of course, I’d like to see what he thinks anyway. :D

H/Hr shippers declare that the fundamentals of H/Hr are blah and blah. But Davydee is simply pointing out that each and every applies fully to Ron and indicates a platonic relationship between Harry and Hermione, and you pointed out this won’t work because Ron is a boy, and Hermione is a girl.

Well, see, the problem here is that if the fundamentals for H/Hr can be applied to Ron and Harry, and H/Hr say the fundamentals mean a romantic relationship between H/Hr, then why shouldn’t this indicate a homosexual relationship between Ron and Harry?

Of course not.

What I don’t understand is that H/Hr seem to be implying that because Harry and Hermione have an excellent and caring and brilliant (and any other appraising adjective that can possibly be attached) relationship that it means a romantic relationship between them, when it could EASILY (and probably is) be a platonic relationship.

But it wasn’t directed at me.

Mad Eye

So sorry to butt in the debate between you and Gily-Ann, (I seem to be making a bad habit of this lately :p) but I would like to refer my opinion on something you said- asking Gily-Ann about Ginny being superior to Hermione in any way?

Well, basically, I think Ginny has superior social skills than Hermione. She has more friends and seems able to fit in with the “outlandish” people- i.e. bookish Hermione, and dreamy Luna.

Ginny is also more easy-going, and less “in your face”- she is more relaxed about breaking rules and she understands Harry better in that department than Hermione. Ginny sees Harry’s determination to do something, even if it breaks a dozen rules along the way, and she realises that Harry will be Harry. He won’t be moved.

So instead of arguing with him to be “right” and follow the rules and hissing (and confusing poor Seamus :rotfl:), she identifies his need, and helps him with it, hugely.

(, I’m not a die hard H/G shipper, but I have to say, Ginny is superior to Hermione in this department. I’m not Hermione bashing ok?) :evil:

Signing out,

Avada

Mega

July 29th, 2003, 9:17 pm

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: For all (even R/Hr shippers *shudders*). Some good debats here from both sides (especialy H/Hr. Impresed with what MoF managed to find). I'm having trouble remembering Harry's so called "sexually charged" dream (I should really go over OotP again). Is it the one where McGonagall (sp) was dancing? I think the whole Hermione turning into Cho could be a short of passing the torch. Harry's relationship whith Cho failed so maybe her turning into Hermione was a way of saying Hermione is next? Sorry if this has already been said or doe's not make sense.

evaluna

July 29th, 2003, 9:30 pm

Original post by Avada Kedavra
Well, I've just done a search on the web, and all searches of star signs and romantic matches between Leo-Virgo and Pisces-Virgo.

The results?

Well, it's a bit of a mixed bag- like Divination.

I think JKR chose their birthdays/star signs with their character in mind, not their romantic possibilites, though I could be wrong.

Avada, err... ahem...I believe DD the Wise was the first [and not sure if others?] to post something with romantic sun-sign pairing. I didn't recognise then b/c I thought it was off my earlier kabbalah/gnosticism topic and anyway didn't know Ron's sun sign [so I was thinking what's this virgo-pisces piece about?].

BUT for the record, I absolutely was not "sun-sign matchmaking". FP posted info on both ruling planet and sun sign as character background, and we're sorry if that wasn't clear to you at that time. In fact, I really cannot underscore how much I was exactly attempting to focus on character, and on the often latent and sometimes more obvious esoteric symbolism of the character's ruling planets, associated mythological figures, and other esoterica from kabbalistic and gnostic sources. Frankly if all you got out of it was virgo-pisces or not virgo-pisces [???] -- neither of which appears anywhere in my posts or FP's -- then we two have failed miserably to introduce a potential new source of symbolism and latent meaning to the thread...so I guess we'll just have to *keep trying*, eh?

In no way were any of my posts or FP's, just for starters, ever attempting to be sun-sign matchmaking. I totally agree that it's all about the characters, but rest assured, Kabbalah and Gnosticism are not about sun-sign matchmaking. Look them up yourself if you don't believe us ;) *Whew* I really hope that's the last I see on that. Nonetheless, if you read my posts, I do think that there's an interesting plethora of esoterica that suggests [not proves, of course] certain things, including compatibility and symbolic resonance for certain characters that, yes, do have esoteric references sourced from their ruling planets and sun signs. I certainly hope that's all crystal clear now ;)

Beg pardon, all, for mild display of frustration!
Cheers!

sone

July 29th, 2003, 10:47 pm

Harry's love interest turned into Hermione. The relationship with Cho had not been failing at the time of that dream. Interestingly enough, it failed BECAUSE of Hermione.

I think this is also the reason why Hermione and Krum failed. But Harry and Hermione do not know that they are the ones that broke up their other relationships.

Earendil

July 29th, 2003, 10:47 pm

Originally posted by GilyAnn
But compare to Cho, Hermione is at level with cho making her an unsuitable partner and Ginny is made superior to Cho make her a more suitable partner.
Ginny is made superior to Cho in terms of Quidditch, sure. Hermione is made superior to Cho in terms of closeness to Harry, attention received from Harry, and intelligence/abilities (as proved by the DA meetings). We see alot of Hermione being placed in precedence over Cho. So if both Hermione and Ginny are superior to Cho, how can we tell that Ginny is superior to Hermione?

Originally posted by AvadaKedavtra
But Davydee is simply pointing out that each and every applies fully to Ron and indicates a platonic relationship between Harry and Hermione, and you pointed out this won’t work because Ron is a boy, and Hermione is a girl.

Ah, but "each and every" argument for H/Hr did not successfully apply to Ron and Harry's friendship. Goodness knows we have no romantic imagery to associate with Harry and Ron, and we especially don't have Harry hearing the voice of Ron as his conscience. Nor do we have Ron clearly displaying an oddly cool and distant reaction to Harry's first kiss, or Ron getting in the way of Harry's first relationship. There are quite a few H/Hr arguments that didn't apply, as pointed out before, and it doesn't bank only on Hermione being a girl and Ron being a boy.

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
Ginny is also more easy-going, and less “in your face”- she is more relaxed about breaking rules and she understands Harry better in that department than Hermione. Ginny sees Harry’s determination to do something, even if it breaks a dozen rules along the way, and she realises that Harry will be Harry. He won’t be moved.

Easy-going and fun-loving does not equal superior. As for Ginny understanding Harry more and accepting it when he needs to do something: Hermione can recognize when Harry truly needs something, and will agree to help him even if it goes against her better judgment. This is even more powerful than having someone who is neutral or who agrees with what he's doing and goes along with it. Hermione didn't want to go running off to the DoM, but she herself said that if only he made sure Sirius wasn't at 12GP, she would do anything to help him, despite her better judgment. This to me is far more powerful than Ginny walking in and offering her help when she knew nothing about the situation.

Mega, the dream in question is the one in the chapter "The Eye of the Snake", directly following the Kiss. (Couldn't tell you what page is on, but hopefully you can locate it in the chapter.) It's not the McGonagall-dancing-with-Neville dream, which happens a little earlier, I believe.

Hawk, if Barney and the Wiggles make you feel more secure against the ever-present threat of the Teletubbies, by all means, enlist their services. *salutes Hawk* Incidentally, would the singular form be "teletubby" or "teletubbie"? Hmm....

*walks away pondering this meaningful question*

GilyAnn

July 29th, 2003, 11:13 pm

Ginny is made superior to Cho in terms of Quidditch, sure. Hermione is made superior to Cho in terms of closeness to Harry, attention received from Harry, and intelligence/abilities (as proved by the DA meetings). We see alot of Hermione being placed in precedence over Cho. So if both Hermione and Ginny are superior to Cho, how can we tell that Ginny is superior to Hermione?

No Ginny is also put by jkr to surpass Cho on the DA meetings. Ginny is the one who finds Cho before Harry could find her or she could find him to change the schedule of the DA meetings. It was Ginny's original idea to say DA for 'Dumbledore's Army' Cho initially wanted to put defense assosiation. In the end is the name that Ginny sugest that unables Umbridge to kick Harry out. An actually in terms of Closeness Harry himself tells us how easy it was to talk to Cho the same as Hermione and Ron. So in terms of closeness they are at level also. The even have a paralel on terms of what annoyed Harry. While Cho cried, Hermione nagged Harry. Both things that made Harry run away from them and feel annoyed.

Easy-going and fun-loving does not equal superior. As for Ginny understanding Harry more and accepting it when he needs to do something: Hermione can recognize when Harry truly needs something, and will agree to help him even if it goes against her better judgment. This is even more powerful than having someone who is neutral or who agrees with what he's doing and goes along with it. Hermione didn't want to go running off to the DoM, but she herself said that if only he made sure Sirius wasn't at 12GP, she would do anything to help him, despite her better judgment. This to me is far more powerful than Ginny walking in and offering her help when she knew nothing about the situation.

Hermione is a great friend to Harry and she is bloody brilliant. But she usually fails on Harry's emotional side. Hermione goes with what she thinks it's correct. Not what he wants or needs. She was going to the DoM after they checked first at 12GP. She gave a condition to her going and gave Harry a plead. Ginny didn't do that. Ginny offer her help trusting them on their judgement because she was struggling understanding what was going on. She gave no condition of them telling them what was going on for her help. She offer her help freely trusting Hermione, Ron and Harry's judgement.

Gily Ann

haycheng

July 29th, 2003, 11:19 pm

hi GilyAnn
I dont know.It is very intereting indeed, the whole DA first meeting. Both Hermione and Ginny voice their opinion over Cho and accepted my Harry. In a way, JKR seem to want us to guess by not given a more confirm situsation.

As for the advice and support. I perfer Hermione way if I am harry. Without her, Harry could have been death long time ago. But then advicer and wife are too different thing(of course, wife does paly advicer something.)

EDIT:
In a effort to support the anti-Teletubbies compaign. Hay Cheng go to the storage and get the holy water, holy corss, wood sword and other anti-evil equipments.

sone

July 29th, 2003, 11:22 pm

Actually haycheng, all the answers to that are in Book Four.

Mad Eye Mike

July 29th, 2003, 11:33 pm

Just because Ginny suggested a name that eventually saves Harry's behind later doesn't make her superior to Cho.

I think OotP confirmed one thing: When Harry didn't listen to Hermione, the results for him were diasatrous. Hermione tries to give Harry what he needs because what Harry wants is usually wrong.

If Ginny is going to be the kind of friend who gives Harry what he wants all the time (as opposed to what he needs), she'll get him killed real quick and there won't be a book 7.

Hawk 92

July 29th, 2003, 11:35 pm

Hawk, if Barney and the Wiggles make you feel more secure against the ever-present threat of the Teletubbies, by all means, enlist their services. *salutes Hawk* Incidentally, would the singular form be "teletubby" or "teletubbie"? Hmm....

We could start a thread, Teletubby or teletubbies? And then a thread who would win in a death match Barney or the Teletubbies? I've been curious about the outcome of a deathmatch between the 2. Could have Blue from Blues Clues as the special guest referee. :lol:

Now Back to the matter at hand,

Sorry AK

The original problem stands. And BTW I've often said that I ship H/Hr because their personalitites complement each other and that I don't ship Hr/R is because their personalities clash.

But you still are comparing a boy/boy with a boy/girl. So in order to support your theory you must omit that Hermione is a girl to make the theory stand.

Now here's another problem. Now Hr/R is platonic as well. Nothing has been resolved in the way to make it unplatonic. And for the first 3 books their relationship is the way it is in books 4-5. So what's basically being said in this theory is that if they get along they are friends and if they fight they are friends. Highly contradictory. Comparing boy/boy to boy/girl is not even apples and oranges (these are at least both fruit) its more like comparing apples to horses.

Besides the whole problem is where is the line drawn between too good of friends to be a couple? And why shouldn't a couple be good friends?

Cheers!

Ecthelion

July 29th, 2003, 11:56 pm

*Hawk steps back into the forum having run the last Teletubbie down. Quietly reflects that the Teletubbies moved faster than this thread. And wonders what the sharp, pointy, evil, looking, thingy is that Ecthelion is carring is?*

*Ecthelion silently regards Hawks question and quickly reveals a sinister stick with a rather sharp point and offers his service in case the Teletubbies ever return.*

No Ginny is also put by jkr to surpass Cho on the DA meetings. Ginny is the one who finds Cho before Harry could find her or she could find him to change the schedule of the DA meetings. It was Ginny's original idea to say DA for 'Dumbledore's Army' Cho initially wanted to put defense assosiation. In the end is the name that Ginny sugest that unables Umbridge to kick Harry out. An actually in terms of Closeness Harry himself tells us how easy it was to talk to Cho the same as Hermione and Ron. So in terms of closeness they are at level also. The even have a paralel on terms of what annoyed Harry. While Cho cried, Hermione nagged Harry. Both things that made Harry run away from them and feel annoyed.

First of all, I believe that Ginny was the one that asked cho merely because her boyfriend was in ravenclaw and she would obviously have ready access. Secondly I don't think I see how this could possibly help Ginny with Harry...And about Ginny suggesting the name...that just states that Ginny is indeed getting cleverer and has developed over the years, nothing else.

And if you really want to prove Ginny should go out with Harry, I really don't think you want to compare her to cho. If anybody, to really press your point, do so to Hermione.

But she usually fails on Harry's emotional side. Hermione goes with what she thinks it's correct. Not what he wants or needs. She was going to the DoM after they checked first at 12GP. She gave a condition to her going and gave Harry a plead. Ginny didn't do that. Ginny offer her help trusting them on their judgement because she was struggling understanding what was going on. She gave no condition of them telling them what was going on for her help. She offer her help freely trusting Hermione, Ron and Harry's judgement.

I'm going to have to go with Mike on this one. Without her, and when they were without her, the consequences were staggeringly atrocious. They need her. And this is just my opinion, but if Ginny were in Hermione's spot, I have a feeling they wouldn't be here as of now. Nothing against Ginny of course, she is just inept to do Hermione's job.

BabyMars

July 29th, 2003, 11:58 pm

Sorry I took so stinkin long to do this part of my essays. I've been busy with a new job, studying for finals, ect. Anyway, again, the point of the essays to give all of us an idea of what real love is so that we can all start from some common ground in these debates. I will also be posting my reference at the end of the essay.

I'm putting a PG-13 tag on this for some of the words included in this essay. May not be suitable for children under the age of 13! If you cannot be mature about the psychology of human nature, then don't bother reading further. (I'm not trying to get this thread shut down, so as a reminder, this content in this essay is from a college textbook and has been studied and researched by Ph D level psychologists.)

The Triangular Theory of Love

The triangular theory of love, developed by Robert Sternberg (1986), emphasizes the dynamic quiality of love relationships. According to this theory, love is composed of three elements, and in points of a triangle: Intimacy, Passion, and Decision/Commitment.

Each can be enlarged or deminished during the course of a relationship, which will affect the quality of a relationship. They can be combined in different ways. Each combination produces a different type of love, such as romantic love, infatuation, empty love, and liking (all of which I will touch upon.) Partners may combine the components differently at different times in the same love relationship.

The Components of Love

Intimacy- refers to the warm, close, bonding feelings we get when we love someone. According to Strenberg, there are ten signs of intimacy:

1) Wanting to promote your partner's welfare
2) Feeling happiness with your partner
3) Holding your partner in high reguard
4) Being able to count on your partner in times of need
5) Being able to understand your partner
6) Sharing yourself and your possessions with your partner
7) Receiving emotional support from your partner
8) Giving emotional support to your partner
9) Being able to communicate with your partner about intimate things
10) Valuing your partner's presence in your life

Passion- this component refers to the elements of romance, attraction, and sexuality in the relationship. These may be fueled by a desire to increase self-esteem, to be sexually active or fullfilled, to affiliate with others, to dominate, or to subordinate.

Decision/Commitment- this component consists of two seperate parts, a short-term part and a long-term part. The short-term part refers to an individual's decision that he or she love someone. People may or may not make the decision consciously. But it usually occurs before they decide to make a commitment to the other person. The commitment represents the long-term part; it is the maintenance of love. But a decision to love someone does not necessarliy entail a commitment to maintaining that love.

Kinds of Love

The intimacy, passion, and decision/commitment components can be combined in eight basic ways, according to Sternberg:

1) Liking (intimacy only)
2) Infatuation (passion only)
3) Romantic love (intimacy and passion)
4) Companionate love (intimacy and commitment)
5) Fatuous love (passion and commitment)
6) Consumate love (intimacy, passion, and commitment)
7) Empty love (desision/commitment only)
8) Nonlove (absence of intimacy, passion, and commitment)

These types represent extremes that few of us are likely to experience. Not many of us, for example, experience infatuation in its purest form, in which there is absolutely no intimacy. And empty love, in fact, is not really love at all. These catagories are nevertheless useful for examining the nature of love.

Liking:Intimacy Only-Liking represents the intimacy component alone. It forms the basis for close friendships but is neither passionate nor comitted. As such, liking is often an enduring kind of love. Boyfriends and girlfriends may come and go, but good friends remain.

Infatuation: Passion Only- Infatuation is "love at first sight." It is the kind of love that idealizes its object; the infatuated individual rarely sees the other as a "real" person with normal human foibles. Infatuation is marked by sudden passion and a high degree of physical and emotional arousal. It tends to be obsessive and all-consuming; one has no time, energy, or desire for anything or anyone but the beloved (or thoughts of him or her.) To the dismay of the infatuated individual, infatuations are usually asymmetrical: One's passion (or obsession) is rarely returned equally. And the greater the asymmetry, the greater the distress in the relationship.

Romantic Love: Intimacy and Passion- Romantic love combines intmacy and passion. It is similar to liking except that it is more intense as a result of physical or emotional attraction. It may begin with an immediate union of the two components, with friendship that intensifies into passion, or with passion that also develops intimacy. Although commitment is not as essential element of romantic love, it may develop.

Companionate Love: Intimacy and Commitment- Companionate love is essential to a committed friendship. It often begins as romantic love, but as the passion diminishes and the intimacy increases, it is transformed into companionate love. Some couples are satisfied with such love; others are not. Those who are dissatisfied in companionate love relationships may seek extrarelational affairs to maintain passion in their lives. They may also end the relationship to seek a new romantic relationship that they hope will remain romantic.

Fatuous Love: Passion and Commitment- Fatuous or deceptive love is whirlwind love; it begins the day two people meet and quickly results in cohabitation or engagement, and then marriage. It develops so quickly that they hardly know what happened. Often, nothing much really did happen that will permit the relationship to endure. As Sternberg observes, "It us fatuous in the sense that a commitment is made on the basis of passion without the stabilizing element of intimate involvement--which takes time to develop." Passion fades soon enough, and all that remains is commitment. But commitment that has had relatively little time to deepen is a poor foundation on which to build an enduring relationship. With neither passion nor intimacy, the commitment wanes.

Consummate love: Intimacy, Passion and Commitment- Consummate love results when intimacy, passion and commitment combine to form their unique constellation. It is the kind of love we dream about but do not expect in all our love relationships. Many of us can achieve it, but it is difficult to sustain over time. To sustain it, we much nourish its different components, for each is subject to the stress of time.

Empty love: Decision/Commitment Only- Empty love involves staying together solely for the sake of appearances or the children.

Nonlove: Absence of Intimacy, Passion, and Commitment- Nonlove can take many forms, such as attachment for financial reasons, fear, or the fulfillment of neurotic needs.

The Geometry of Love

The shape of the love triangle depends on the intensity of the love and the balance of the parts. Intense love relationships lead to triangles with greater area; such triangles occupy more of one's life. Just as love relationships can be balanced or unbalanced, so can love triangles. The balance determines the shape of the triangle. A relationship in which the intimacy, passion, and commitment components are equal results in an equilateral triangle. But if the components are not equal, unbalanced triangles form. The size and shape of a person's triangle give a good pictoral sense of how that person feels about another. The greater the match between the triangles of the two partners in a relationship, the more likely each is to experience satisfaction in the relationship.

Stong, Brian.Human Sexuality: Diversity in Contemporary America. The Mcgraw-hill Companies, Inc. Boston, 2002. Pgs. 221-226

My next essay with cover Love as Attachment.

Cheers :D

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 12:04 am

No Ginny is also put by jkr to surpass Cho on the DA meetings. Ginny is the one who finds Cho before Harry could find her or she could find him to change the schedule of the DA meetings. It was Ginny's original idea to say DA for 'Dumbledore's Army' Cho initially wanted to put defense assosiation. In the end is the name that Ginny sugest that unables Umbridge to kick Harry out. An actually in terms of Closeness Harry himself tells us how easy it was to talk to Cho the same as Hermione and Ron. So in terms of closeness they are at level also. The even have a paralel on terms of what annoyed Harry. While Cho cried, Hermione nagged Harry. Both things that made Harry run away from them and feel annoyed.

What? How does Ginny suggesting Dumbledore's Army unable, or enable, Umbridge to kick Harry out a good thing? It's the reason WHY Harry was about to get kicked out and Dumbledore was the one who interfered so that it wouldn't happen.

I fail to see how suggesting a name for a group can benefit ANY SHIP.

It was easy to talk to Cho about Quidditch, if I'm not mistaken, and only Quidditch. Of course, it's going to be easy for him to talk to her about that. They didn't have much to say afterwards did they? Except for Cedric and obviously that didn't get anywhere, especially with the mention of darling Hermione.

Hermione is a great friend to Harry and she is bloody brilliant. But she usually fails on Harry's emotional side. Hermione goes with what she thinks it's correct. Not what he wants or needs. She was going to the DoM after they checked first at 12GP. She gave a condition to her going and gave Harry a plead. Ginny didn't do that. Ginny offer her help trusting them on their judgement because she was struggling understanding what was going on. She gave no condition of them telling them what was going on for her help. She offer her help freely trusting Hermione, Ron and Harry's judgement.

So are you trying to say that Hermione doesn't trust Harry's judgment? Not only does she accuse him, but now she doesn't trust him? That's why she suggest to help him and that's why Harry recognizes her loyalty? I think it's okay for a person have to question things at times, not because you don't trust the person but because you're weary of the SITUATION. Hermione was aware that Voldemort could be using Harry. She is the ONLY one who is aware of that fact and I see nothing wrong with her telling Harry that it could be a trap. As mentioned, Hermione never said she wouldn't go, she just wanted to take a step ahead of Voldemort and see if Sirius was there or not. She didn't want for them to be fooled and Harry killed. What's so wrong with that? I know, Gily, it's her approach, but did Harry actually leave like he said he would. No he didn't, he stuck around and listened to her, albeit angrily.

I, personally, don't think Hermione "fails" on Harry's emotional side. She understands what he needs and wants, she's just making sure his butt doesn't get killed while trying to help him achieve his wants and needs.

Turambar

July 30th, 2003, 12:09 am

Thanks Evaluna

xxxxx
Posted by Sone:
I think this is also the reason why Hermione and Krum failed. But Harry and Hermione do not know that they are the ones that broke up their other relationships.
xxxxxx

I wonder if part of the reason why JKR has spent so much time showing us Krum and Cho's reactions and mirroring them is preparation for an H/Hr fallout with Ron. He was immediately tense at just the hint that they had missed his big match wasn't he. That doesn't bode well.

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 12:14 am

Turambar,

Ron was also tense when he asked Hermione how she knew Harry was a good kisser.

Young_Prodigy

July 30th, 2003, 12:14 am

What? How does Ginny suggesting Dumbledore's Army unable, or enable, Umbridge to kick Harry out a good thing? It's the reason WHY Harry was about to get kicked out and Dumbledore was the one who interfered so that it wouldn't happen.

I think she is trying to say that the fact that the name was Dumbledore's Army "enabled" Dumbledore to interfere and take the blame so that Harry could stay in school. So Ginny coming up with the name is important for the DD events to take place.

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6965&stc=1

sone

July 30th, 2003, 12:20 am

I wonder if part of the reason why JKR has spent so much time showing us Krum and Cho's reactions and mirroring them is preparation for an H/Hr fallout with Ron. He was immediately tense at just the hint that they had missed his big match wasn't he. That doesn't bode well.

Not only with Ron but with Ginny as well. It has just occurred to me in the past couple of days that Ginny has indeed not gotten over Harry yet. She still likes him....alot.

Turambar

July 30th, 2003, 12:20 am

Yeah Mike, it's noticeable how quickly and intensly he reacts.
Sone: Do you mean Ginny's reaction to Hermione saying they only needed three thestrals?

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 12:21 am

Young Prodigy - That's true, but it doesn't make Ginny superior to Cho. It's not like Ginny could predict the future and knew Harry would get in trouble and so she came up with the name as a way to provide Harry an out.

It was just a coincidence.

Sirius83

July 30th, 2003, 12:33 am

I definately believe that H/Hr could result in a fight with Ron. Ron senses something between Harry and Hermione and doesn't seem to like it. If H/Hr get together before his crush is over, it could turn out to be another fallout.

In fact, the bits where Ron is trampled by a rampaging Hippogriff(love) and is booted from the girls dorms(it is specified that they turn into a slide when Ron reaches the sixth stair) tend to suggest for me that he is shot down in book 6 because of Hermione's feelings for Harry, which results in him being "trampled" - which in turn revives the still unresolved GOF fallout.

Turambar

July 30th, 2003, 12:36 am

Those 'joke' predictions in GOF I mentioned a page or two back may suggest it as well, Sirius.
Alot of people thought this might happen in book 5 but really JKR is moving in sequence: Harry had to get over Cho first before becoming more interested in Hermione. And at the same time we're seeing signs of Ron being jealous and suspicious.

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 12:40 am

I think she is trying to say that the fact that the name was Dumbledore's Army "enabled" Dumbledore to interfere and take the blame so that Harry could stay in school. So Ginny coming up with the name is important for the DD events to take place.

So, as MEM pointed out, how does this coincidence make Ginny superior to Cho. Heck how does this make her even in the same level intellectually. Harry could have been kicked out regardless of what the name was, if I'm not mistaken. Still don't see how her "predicting" all of this helps SHIP H/G?

EDIT: Prodigy, I'm not trying to flame you or anything. It's just that, if that's what Gily mean than WHOA!

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 12:44 am

H/G because of the way she is described. If you really read the description of Ginny then you'd see that it's a lot different than the way Hermione is described. it's all very subtle. H/G and R/Hr all the way with a smidgeon of N/L...gotta have those two.

noddwyd

July 30th, 2003, 12:45 am

Ron was also tense when he asked Hermione how she knew Harry was a good kisser.

I was about to mention that. Ron has definitely become suspicious of them. But does this mean that Harry is going to 'wake up and smell the roses' in book six? I'm pretty sure Hermione already knows how she feels. This isn't the way I'd have wanted it to play out, since it does cause major problems with Ron 'cause he's still not over her. Maybe Ron really will end up stabbing him in the back?

Sirius83

July 30th, 2003, 12:50 am

I've always thought that Ron will have a fallout in book 6 when he realises that H/Hr is inevitable. Eventually he'll make up with them, but his moodiness may have put Harry in a lot of danger - he then dies trying to make up for the mistake. If you ask me, the stage has already been set for this to play out, but that's not for this thread.

vroll

July 30th, 2003, 1:00 am

I say Hr likes Ron, remember how upset she got with Ron when he liked the French girl.

Sirius83

July 30th, 2003, 1:07 am

In the Fleur instance, Harry was also present and had been kissed. Also, Hermione didn't like Fleur right from the beginning. She also really hated the idea of superficiality - and Ron was being superficial over Fleur, who Hermione doesn't like. However, note that she scowled after both boys were kissed and Ron said that.

If she does like Ron, she should be encouraging him because his feelings came out in the Yule Brawl. Instead, Hermione spent her time babbling about Harry to Krum, to the extent that Krum confronts Harry about it.

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 1:54 am

And I don't understand how comparing Harry/Ron with Harry/Hermione is working because it has a huge omission. The fact that Harry/Ron are both boys and that Harry/Hermione is a boy/girl. So the theory omits that Hermione is a girl.

Uh huh! That's the reply I was waiting for.

Deliberate omission = Hermione is a girl. She is indeed. So what?

What you're saying here, Hawk, is that purely because she is a girl, those interactions between them which I outlined in my 'Harry Potter has a friend' post which apply also to Ron, must neccessarily result in love between Harry and Hermione.

Why must that be the case? Is it never possible for a boy and a girl to be friends without having romantic feelings for each other. Or is it the case, as you seem to be suggesting, that two friends of the opposite sex will not be content with mere friendship and will seek to exploit that friendship for the sake of romance.

Sirius83

July 30th, 2003, 2:40 am

But we have shown other reasons. We have shown romantic imagery with Harry and Hermione, but Harry and Ron have none of that. Someone made a nice post a bit back highlighting all the things we have about Haryr and Hermione that have nothing to do with "Hermione's a girl"

I would also like to remind everyone here that slash is against the rules of this board. Please, let's drop the topic before a moderator has to come here and make us do so.

noddwyd

July 30th, 2003, 2:51 am

yes, you're right. Many of those things they use as evidence can be interchanged with Ron. But also many of them cannot be, because Hermione and Ron are two very different people. Being Harry's friend is not the only thing that defines them. It's much more complex than that.

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 3:12 am

I would also like to remind everyone here that slash is against the rules of this board. Please, let's drop the topic before a moderator has to come here and make us do so.

There's no slash here - and you demean the debate by making that reference. You might like to consider removing that reference.

What was being discussed was a comparative analysis of Harry's friendship with Hermione in the context of his friendship with Ron in order to demonstrate that the basis of the former rests on normal interactions between two close friends.

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 6:28 am

Uh huh! That's the reply I was waiting for.

So was I.

Deliberate omission = Hermione is a girl. She is indeed. So what?

I have addressed this. Boy/Boy to boy/girl.

Why must that be the case? Is it never possible for a boy and a girl to be friends without having romantic feelings for each other. Or is it the case, as you seem to be suggesting, that two friends of the opposite sex will not be content with mere friendship and will seek to exploit that friendship for the sake of romance

Never said exploit. Interesting choice of words. I said that love would grow from friendship.

But Hr/R shippers tell us the Ron and Hermione exploit fighting for feelings. Or is it the case as you seem to be suggesting, that two friends of the opposite sex will not be content with mere friendship and will seek to exploit their fighting for the sake of romance. But you have already suggested this and try to prove it as well.

What was being discussed was a comparative analysis of Harry's friendship with Hermione in the context of his friendship with Ron in order to demonstrate that the basis of the former rests on normal interactions between two close friends.

And by your own theroy you rule out Hr/R as well. Because we have also a boy/boy where personaltities conflict. 2 in fact: Draco and Harry and Ron and Draco. So unless you want to say that the criteria is not to be applied to all cases and admit that there is a double standard Hr/R is also to be considered a dead ship.

Cheers!

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 6:30 am

Harry and Hermione’s relationship is (as yet) an extremely good friendship. There is nothing going on between them yet. Harry doesn’t show any interest in Hermione (yet). Personally, I believe we have seen signs of Hermione being a little more interested in Harry than what you would normally see within a normal friendship. Then we have Harry and Hermione’s subconscious reactions. And we have all the sub textual clues (some might consider this speculation).
In short, the best relationships grow from friendships, and within the trio we have R/Hr or H/Hr as possibilities. Even without the sub textual clues, Hermione’s reactions and Harry’s subconscious reactions, I just think that Harry and Hermione fit together. I can’t see why Ron and Hermione would become seriously engaged just because they bicker, and “opposites attract” which I think is rubbish. Personally, I think both the H/Hr shippers and R/Hr shippers need the kind of irreversible evidence that says BOOM!, but I believe that there is a bigger possibility of H/Hr happening with all these hints that fit together like some jigsaw puzzle.

And come on folks! Make love, not war! Peace, love, and Harmony! Yay!
I tend to get a bit over-emotional sometimes.

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 6:48 am

And a couple of :clap: :clap:

To 00Mars for her post. Great job there Mars.

Now if only you had the same great common sense when it comes to choosing cookies. :p

And come on folks! Make love, not war! Peace, love, and Harmony! Yay!

HMS Harmony.

Cheers!

Buckbeak

July 30th, 2003, 7:03 am

Hello everyone,
I thought id write this because it seems that most of you are steering clear of this possibility. iv already mentioned a few posts back now that it isn't all that impossible that Harry, Hermione and Ron are just going to stay best friends, no romantic feelings involved, kind of best friends.
To be honest i think its the best ship thats going around cause their friendship is what is most important to Harry, probably more than anything else in his life, and because theres only three of them, there is going to be one left out.
So im going to explain a few things that have been brought up over the numerous love boards, and to why alot of these things only really explain that the trio are just good friends.

Ok first on to why H/Hr, is unlikley to happen. Now this is the relationship i would prefer to happen if it is so inevatable that the trio have to get into a relationship. but that is just wishful thinking, and JK is hardly going to go by what i want, so instead i can only dream about it.

Anyway, on to the point, we H/Hr shippers can argue until the sun comes up, about how Harry loves Hermione and so forth, but after reading OoTP, it kind of struck me as to how obvious it all seems, i mean we've all read the previous books, and know that JK hates the obvious (don't get to excited R/Hr fans, im getting on to that one in a minute) so why do you think she'd put the hero and the heroine together? its what happens in almost every story, but Harry Potter is so different from that, which is what makes them great books.
Now for me the H/Hr moments didn't really begin until book 5, some of you are going to argue with that, but thats only when i noticed things going on. i suppose the best place to start would be the scene after Harry and Cho have kissed and he's talking about it with Hermione and Ron.

'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she corner you after the meeting?'
Numbly surprised, Harry nodded. Ron s******ed, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye.
'So-er-what did she want?' he asked in a mock casual voice.
'She-' Harry began, rather hoarsely; he cleared his throat and tried again. 'She-er-'
'Did you kiss?' asked hermione briskly

I love that bit, because its so obvious Hermione jealous, but you have to really think about it to understand whats going on. Now i suppose its not so much as the words themselves its more the way Hermione says them businesslike briskly
*Looking it up in the dictionary*
Businesslike adj. efficient, systematic, pratical.
Well Hermiones practical about pretty much everything, she knows that Cho is a senstive matter, Harry likes her, something has obviously happened and Harry's not telling so she decideds to bring up the matter herself, knowing full well what its going to be about. its just what Hermione is like.
Briskly adj quick, lively, keen
that word 'keen' says it all really she wants to know what happend as much as Ron does, but she's hiding it because she's a very practical person, who thinks Ron is being immature about it and doesn't want to sound like him.
Now im not saying Hermione isn't slightly jealous cause i think she is, but in a different way. she's hung round with Harry for four years, and their best friends, i suppose in a way she feels a sense of ownership of him 'he's my best friend, im the only girl in his life' type thing, she'd feel exactly the same with Ron, it doesn't make Hermione a bad person, just human. how many of you have felt jealous when a friend has found someone new and seems to be slipping away? its perfectly normal especially for a teenager of Hermione's age. She gets over this quickly though and is soon willing to help Harry out, by giving him girl advise. she hasn't really got any girlfriends to talk to about boys, so she talks to Harry about girls, which again is perfectly normal, seeing as she is one.
What about all those times Hermione grabs hold of Harry when she's scared, well out of Harry and Ron i think id grab the one who has escaped the clutches of Voldmort three times and who has killed a basilisk, its just an uncontious sense of wanting safety that comes to Hermione, its nothing against Ron, its just to her Harry is the one who is most likely to survive in a battle and Hermione wants to be there to survive too. That said however if it were between Ron and Neville, im sure Hermione would not hesitate in a second to grab Ron, even though it was Neville who was one of the last ones standing at the department of mysteries. its one of those senses that have stayed with the human race, over the course of evalution. in the times of cave men there was always one a leader whose duty it was to protect the others, he was usually the strongest, fittest and the one who had killed the most animals (and probably the one who could grunt the loudest too). Harry may not be the tallest of the lot of them, but he gives the feeling to everyone that he is the strongest and so therefore is the leader naturally. so like i said before its nothing against Ron personally its just that hermione feels safer with Harry, which iv tried to point out the reason for above (badly i know but i hope you get the point).
Right iv written so much and i haven't even got on to Ron yet, so im just going to add a very important reason why H/Hr will not happen (im sorry to say) it has been made clear, that Ron likes Hermione in that way, and one of the number 1 rules of any friendship is that you do not go out with the person your best friend has a crush on. i can't stress this enough people, it is a terrible thing to do, its never happened to me personally, thank-god, but i would be completly devestated if it did. so unless Ron gets over Hermione, it can not happen between H/Hr. thanks.

Right now on to Ron, im going to have to be quick with this cause im not sure how much space i have left.
I really do not like this ship, don't know why, its just so wrong, and if it happened it wouldn't last long, and would probably put a permenant block between R/Hr which would be the end of the trio (which is the last thing we want to happen)
Now iv already been shouted at before about Ron bashing, which is the last thing i want to do, im just going to say what i think about this whole R/Hr thing.
This quote is something thats been used against me before so i'll explain it in the way i think it goes. its that famous scene where Malfoy calls Hermione a mudblood. in the movie i can agree that it looks like Ron comes to Hermione's rescue, which is a real R/Hr moment, but in the book its slightly different.

Ron gaped, open mouthed, at the seven superb broomsticks in front of him.
'Good aren't they?' said Malfoy smoothly 'But perhaps the Gryffindor team will be able to raise some gold and get new brooms too. you could raffle of those cleansweep fives, i expect a museum would bid for them'
The slytherin team holwed with laughter.
ok although it doesn't say anything, you can imagine that Ron, is already at boiling point here, he's very senstive about being poor, and hates being tormented by Malfoy of all people.
'At least no one one the Gryffindor tem had to buy their way in' said Hermione sharply 'They got in on pure talent'
The smug look on Malfoys face flickered.
'No one asked you opinion you filthy little mudblood' he spat
Harry knew at once that Malfoy had said something really bad because there was an instant uproar at his words. Flint had to dive in front of Malfoy to stop Fred and George jumping on him. Alicia shrieked, 'how dare you!' and Ron plunged his hand into his robes, pulled out his wand, yelling, 'You'll pay for that one, Malfoy!' and pointed it furiously under Flints arm at Malfoy's face.

Now the difference about the movie is that Ron, isn't the only one to react to this, Fred and George are about to whollop Malfoy and if it weren't for the bulk of Flint they would have done so too, long before Ron, got his wand out. Does that mean the twins like Hermione too? no its more to do with what malfoy said. The word 'Mudblood' is about as bad as a wizard saying 'Voldemort'. yes Ron was sticking up for Hermione, but he would have done the same if Malfoy said it to Harry or anyone else, cause he hates the word. and lets remember Ron was already pissed off at Malfoy anyway for taunting him about being poor, in a way he was just looking for an excuse to curse Malfoy.
Now in defence of Harry, i think he couldn't of reacted to it because he had no idea what it meant, he knew it was bad, but by the time he worked that out, the others were already taking matters into there own hands.
And in the movie at the end when there is obviosuly tention between Ron and Hermione because they don't hug, who else thought that that was completely random, there was no other signs about it during the movie it was just at the end, i never really got that, and to someone whose never read the books im sure they were like 'what!'

On to the GOF, the best example to use would be the Yule ball, ok this is where ron probably realises he likes Hermione more than a friend, but if he wants her to be his girlfriend, he's going to have to change alot. i really can't see how a lot of you have worked out that Hermione likes Ron, he's done very little to impress her. He insulted her and used her as a last resort, when it came to asking a date to the ball, he then got completley jealous about her going with Krum, shouted at her, ruining the Yule ball for her, and then after that he shouted at her some more. uh yes i can really see how Hermione can like Ron.
They are friends and she likes him like that, i have no doubt about it, but personally i can't see a way that she has any other feeling for him. If Ron and Hermy were going to happen they would have done so in book five, its not like Harry wouldn't have minded cause he was busy with Cho, so i don't think he would really have cared about them becoming an item. so what else stopped them? Hermione looking for confirmation that Ron likes her? i really don't see how that could happen cause its pretty obvious he does.
Im not saying she's probably never thought about it, but i don't think that there is a shred of realiable evendence to prove that hermione likes Ron the way he likes her, ok.
Right on that light little note i think im going to close it here and just say
R/Hr=no
H/Hr=no(unfortnatley)
H/G=more likely
R/L=yes
H/K=yes

Even though i like H/Hr i don't mind Harry and Ginny, remember Harry saved Ginny's life which she's never going to forget, and even though he has never shown feelings for Ginny, you never know, now that she's talking to him and because she's going out with Dean Thomas he might feel slightly jealous about it. i can honestly say that they would be really sweet together, and i can't imagine any objections from any of the Weasleys occuring, can you?
thanks, and sorry for not making much sense. :agree:

sone

July 30th, 2003, 7:13 am

Sone: Do you mean Ginny's reaction to Hermione saying they only needed three thestrals?

Actually what I am referring to, happened all the way back in GOF but I'll get to that in a bit. In any case, Ron and Ginny have liked Hermione and Harry for quite a while but both of them have yet to return the same feelings despite the fact that they both know that they like them. Ron and Ginny never really asked Hermione and Harry to the Yule Ball. Ron is surprised to find out that Hermione has a partner, Ginny is surprised to find out that Harry does not.

Anyway, through the next two books, we see Viktor getting jealous of not Ron but Harry. We see Cho getting jealous of not Ginny but Hermione. It is the connection they (Harry and Hermione) have that sets off their "first loves". It is quite obvious that they (Viktor and Cho) cannot make a dent in that connection. Hermione did not stop talking about Harry and whatever Hermione said, Harry was never going to say "she is ugly" to Cho. As a matter of fact, he firmly defends her against Cho and takes pride in Hermione's jinxing ability. Harry and Hermione have slowly (but rapidly in OOTP) been turning towards each other and all the while they may not be noticing it, they are very comfortable all the same. When Hermione is scared or frightened, she always reaches out for Harry because it is he who she looks to, to either steady or protect her and he does everytime. The scene with Grawp definitely showed this. When Harry is angry or frustrated, it is Hermione who he lets in to reach him. That scene with Buckbeak is all the more important, because it shows you he lets Hermione in almost without question.

How does Ron and Ginny play into this? Well, they are looking towards the wrong people for their affections. Harry and Hermione just do not return them. Luna and Neville on the other hand, do. Luna seems to be able to look past Ron's faults and is not in the least perturbed by his attitude. Neville can look past the fact that Ginny is Ron's sister. Harry and Hermione cannot. Harry cannot even remember that Ginny was not only being possessed but having her life force sucked out of her by a 16 year old Voldemort. Ron always gets the worse of Hermione while Harry seems to get the best of Hermione. In the most heated arguments, Ron and Hermione have driven themselves away from each other. They avoided each other for weeks in their third year and at the Yule Ball, they were arguing ten feet away from each other. When Harry and Hermione have had their most heated arguments, they have been much closer (as a matter of fact, Hermione stepping back from Harry has only happened once as far as I can tell) and they have not avoided each other for weeks. Even in their third year, Harry tried to make up with Hermione and she took time out her very busy schedule to see him play Quidditch. I would say that they both actually missed each other. After the Quidditch match, Harry did seem concerned that she was not there and Hermione seemed like it would be totally out of the question not for her not to be.

Thus with all of that said, I do see somewhat of a falling out happening between the four of them. Both Ron and Ginny are not aware that Viktor and Cho were jealous of Harry and Hermione. It is interesting to me that while Ron and Ginny are out winning the Quidditch Cup and Cho is very miserable and frustrated, Harry and Hermione are out in the forest not catching a second of it, Hermione clinging on to Harry scared out of her mind of Grawp stretching out a hand towards her. It is also interesting that they did not bother to tell Ron this at all.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 7:15 am

Looks like I learn every day something new. First great post everyone.

Its rather interest for me that the rune for defence don't has any reversed part only uprights thats a little bit strange.

Just let try a quick view at the fact that Harry missread Mars with Venus and Hermione defence with partnership. Its kinda ironic if H/Hr gonna happen than is this more as ironic. Because both would rather see the other sign as the obvious one. See what I wanna say is that Harry is now more focused at the war which is ahead or in front of him and Hermione is focused to keep Harry save. This include exactly that what I did always thought that all people around them recorgnise that H/Hr are more as just friends but they are to busy with saving the world if I may say it like that. This would really explain things for once that Harry don't think about it. He just don't think (we are in his head) about why in the devils name his mind sounds like Hermione or that he thinks or has a awule much related thinking with her and about her. But the people around do get it. Cho did it, Krum did it and now Ron is going to do it. I mean Ron has everything right in front of his nose not only from Harry side but much more from Hermiones side. In OotP is it really like that: Hermione is defence Harry and Harry is looking straight to the war. He looks what will gonna happen. But in OotP they do in they exams, thats the ironic part, get that they missread this or better miss act or had the wrong focus. This implied that they might get in book 6 that they were wrong. This could be very interest.

Now to something what Hawk did explain or interpret indeed very well but I do see the problem in another part of it. I will now show how much Hermione shoot against R/Hr. Its really scary or better something what bothering me and I do hope you as R/Hr see it like me in this case because I don't like what Hermione do with Ron.

"Thanks for the book, Harry," she said happily, "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron"

I think we all know this quote by now but I think this need a closer look. First Hermione do thank Harry for this book but the most interest part is she do name this book and say that she really wanted it. In other words Harry did a great job to give her that book and that she know he did listen to her. If Ron has really feelings for Hermione I did expect by now Ron get suspicious about Hermione and if she even like him that way. Because that what she do is more as tactless this one is IMO more tactless as Harrys date with Cho. Why? Because first Hermione say only to Harry thanks and say only to him that she really wanted this book and even name it that say she really like it if not love it. Or do you believe Harry don't know what a book it was what he gave her? So why name it? Now to this little, very little sentence which is about Ron's gift. Its said like as if its only by the way without any describtion, without any feelings in it. What I understand under feelings is this little part "for ages!" or "I've been wanting...". By this perfume part she don't say only unusual, what is already bad, she said really unusual, thats worst. The only way you could make it worst is to say I just don't like it.

For me is the very cruel part on it that she don't thank Ron for it and the part what bothering me is that she say in front of Ron how wonderful Harry's present is but if it comes to Ron's she said it that way. This is so much against R/Hr that it nearly screams. I mean I would say its alright if she say it apart from each other. You know thanks Harry for this book without Ron around and than go together, let say down the stairs and say this sentence to Ron. But she don't do it. She say it together. This is tactless you don't do that, not in that way. Alone by this quote I can't understand why R/Hr is that great idea just because this shows for me more as that Hermione seems not like Ron in that way.

EDIT: Just a note the hero and the heroine gos not always together, to be exactly its very rare that this happens in a book. Personally I don't know any book were the hero get the heroine not if there is a sidekick.

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 7:52 am

*I am re-posting a slightly revised version of an earlier post I made for all the new people (of all ships) who've joined the thread recently.*

Hermione's attitude in the post kiss scene as decribed by the text is quite clear - she was jealous of hearing Harry kissed Cho. Some say she had to be the way she was because Harry was tight-lipped and she was just trying to get answers out of him. That is false and it's in the text. Ron and Hermione did not have to ask Harry question after question before he started opening up - that would've been different. But that's not what happened at all. Harry began talking and the more he revealed, the more Hermione's mood changed very fast and very drastic.

During that conversation, there was no reason for Hermione to go from Businesslike to Brisk to Frowning to Vague to Anxious to Impatient and then finally, to Distant towards Harry. None. All of those emotions are directed towards Harry as the only two she directs towards Ron are ‘disgust’ and ‘nasty’ when Ron's being his usual self. You also have to take into context the exact point in the discussion when Hermione’s behavior begins to swing. Let's examine closer:

1. She was businesslike because Harry was not talking. Yes, at the very beginning when Harry sat down, he was indeed quiet; but once he admitted to kissing Cho, he began talking like he normally does. People usually adopt a businesslike manner when they’re trying to keep their emotions in check. The question now becomes, why was Hermione acting this way?

2. Now why does Hermione ask Harry briskly if he kissed Cho? Hermione could've kept her unemotional, businesslike manner and had Harry answer her question don’t you think? Of course she could have, but she's a little angry here and she sharply asked Harry if he kissed Cho. There's no reason to snap at the boy, yet she does. Just like there's no reason for Ron to sharply question Hermione when asking about her letters to Krum.

Take notice - Hermione doesn't ask Harry something more reasonable like "Did you tell Cho how you feel about her?" or "Did Cho tell you she likes you?" No. The moment Hermione learns Harry was late because of Cho, the first question out of Hermione's mouth was "Did you kiss?" Very interesting.

3. When Harry doesn't reply with a quick 'No', Hermione slightly frowns. Usually when a reply to a question is negative, a person will answer quickly. Harry doesn't and Hermione probably already knows the answer is yes. Thus she's not pleased. Plus, what kind of platonic friend frowns at the idea his or her best platonic friend just kissed their long time crush? Btw, another way of saying frown is scowl (Look up Scowl in the Oxford Dictionary if you don't believe me).

4. Then there's Hermione's "Of course you're not" remark to Harry when he questioned whether or not he was a bad kisser. How in the bloody hell does Hermione know Harry's not a bad kisser? Am I saying anything happened off page? No I am not, but it's a very interesting answer - "Of course you're not." Notice how Hermione doesn't say something more appropriate like "I doubt it Harry" or "I don't think that's why Cho was crying". Also take notice again - Hermione never answered Ron's question as to how she knew Harry wasn't a bad kisser. All she does explain is why Cho was crying.

5. When Hermione starts talking about Cho, she becomes very vague. Now vague can have lots of meanings, but the one constant in its definition is a lack of 'Clarity'. Since when does Hermione have trouble expressing herself clearly? She certainly wasn't vague a few seconds later when she gave that long explanation about what Cho was feeling.

6. Next Hermione gets Anxious when she basically told Harry why he kissed Cho. Now here's something interesting. Even though Hermione knew Harry liked Cho, she tells him the reason he kissed Cho wasn't because he liked her, but rather because he was just trying to be nice to her. Really? Wow Hermione, that's a pretty amazing gift you have to tell a boy why he was kissing a girl he's liked for so long. Here it is:

“You just had to be nice to her,” said Hermione, looking up anxiously. “You were, weren’t you?”

When Hermione says “You were, weren’t you?”, she's asking Harry to reaffirm to her the kiss was nothing. Look at that sentence carefully. First she tells Harry why he kissed Cho, then she asked him to confirm it. Why? If Hermione is Harry's platonic friend, why not say something like "Way to go! Finally you let Cho know how you feel about her" or something along those lines? Why is Hermione so tense during this period? There's absolutely no reason to be. Her platonic friend just kissed his crush, why isn't she happy for him like Ron is? This is a time for warmth and celebration and yet Hermione is very rigid. This is unusual behavior from Hermione who always gushes so much over anything Harry achieves.

7. Now that Hermione has found out Harry kissed Cho, she wants to know if Harry will see her again. Now that's a stupid question when you consider Hermione already knows how Harry feels about Cho. Of course Harry's going to see her again, so why would Hermione ask such a thing? Then when Harry replies with an answer that makes it seem he has no other choice, Hermione snaps at him that he knew very well what she meant. She lost her patience already. Why is she impatient? To be honest, none of this is really any of Hermione's business anyway.

If Harry doesn't want to give details on whether or not he'll be seeing Cho again, that's his business. In GoF, Hermione wasn't too forthcoming with answers to Ron when he asked about her and Krum so why is Hermione so impatient with Harry and his answers about Cho? Hermione knows that a persons private business is just that. This scene is a parallel to one earlier in the book when Hermione said she was allowed to have a pen pal and Ron snapped that Krum wanted to be more than a pal. Ron grew impatient with Hermione avoiding his answers and Hermione grew impatient with Harry for seemingly avoiding hers.

8. Finally, after all these emotions have surfaced, Hermione becomes Distant and goes right back to her letter. Usually when a person acts like that, it's because they're trying to emotionally distance themselves from what's going on. Hermione is distant to Harry at the end? Why? He's just revealed that he kissed his long time crush, why isn't Hermione at least a little happy for him? Hermione never even offers the slightest bit of congrats for Harry for at least moving forward in his relationship with Cho. Hermione - who is always so supportive of anything Harry achieves - offers no words of encouragement or anything. All she says is “you’ll have plenty of opportunities to ask her….”, and she says that distantly, that's it.

No, Hermione was not pleased at all to hear Harry had kissed Cho. Even taking into account everything that preceded and followed this scene, it still stands up exactly the same.

In GoF and OotP, Ron's attitude was sharp and impatient towards Hermione when she didn’t give him a straight answer regarding her relationship with Krum. It's interesting to see the parallel of Hermione getting brisk and impatient with Harry when he didn’t give her a straight answer regarding his status with Cho.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 8:10 am

Its kinda interest that Harry didn't gave a straight answer. This one did always wonder myself. Its seems he isn't anymore that sure if he even wants Cho. Just wondering. I mean Harrys reaction to Hermiones question if he likes Cho since ages, something along this line, he just don't answer it.

To be exactly what I mean is that both Harry ad Hermione act strange the only one who act right is Ron.

Buckbeak

July 30th, 2003, 8:16 am

Hey Mad Eye Mike, after reading your post i have to say that although i know what your trying say, i think your making it sound abit more dramatic (its not really the word to describe it, but i can't think at the moment) than that scene actually was, i know Hermione uses all these tones to say what shes thinking but i don't think she's saying it as harshly as what your implying, what your saying is that Hermione is not at all happy about Harry kissing Cho, well when i first read that bit, (before i even came on to these boards and read everyones view on things) thats not the impression i got. i think if she was really all that harsh about it, then Harry would have noticed, he would have wondered why she was being really weird about it, he probably would have thought that it wasn't to much to ask for Hermione to at least be happy for him. but no he doesn't, either he misses her tones completely and even he isn't that thick, or she wasn't as hard on him about as you think.
thanks

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 8:22 am

Well, Harry would wonder about it if he were himself happy about this kiss. But thats the case he isn't happy. Thats one part why I think he act strange. Its like he just don't know anymore if he like the idea or not. He is kinda confused so its don't bothered him if Hermione sounds harsh because a small part of himself isn't happy either. Its the fact that Cho was crying and did probably talk again about Cedric this isn't how you imagine your first kiss.
This girl didn't solve her own unsure feelings though she did kiss him thats another part why I'm with Mike in that part that Hermione did indeed sound harsh about this kiss.

How I said both act strange only Ron is happy, really happy for Harry.

sone

July 30th, 2003, 8:26 am

Quite agree FP. Ron was the only one in that room that was quick on the uptake. He seems to be the only one that notices that neither Harry or Hermione are particularly happy about Cho kissing Harry. His question to Hermione is interesting.

"Oh well,"said Hermione distantly, buried in her letter once more, "you'll have plenty of opportunities to ask her."

"What if he doesn't want to ask her?" said Ron, who had been watching Harry with an unusually shrewd expression on his face.

It is like Ron just picked up on a revelation or something. It makes the connection with Harry's dream make all the more sense.

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 8:58 am

i think if she was really all that harsh about it, then Harry would have noticed

Well, remeber the situation. Harry was so confused and shocked that he wouldn't have noticed if Hermione started beating him. His mind was elsewhere.
Don't lose faith BuckBeak! You are right that there is some small chance that H/Hr might not happen, but I think that it is the relationship JKR has substantiated the most. It has been substantiated far more than Harry/Ginny or Ron/Hermione. This is my own personal list of the most substantiated relationships:

1. H/Hr
2. R/Hr
3. R/L
4. H/G

My point is, if Harry is going to get a girl, IMO, Hermione is by far the most likely(It is also possible that Harry won't get a girl). For H/G to happen, we need to see Ginny a lot more, and as it is, I don't think H/G will happen. JKR will have to develop Ginny a lot more in book 6, and give her a lot more screen time. But that is what may happen in future books. That is pure speculation. Just like McGonagall/Harry is speculation. Based on what we have, H/G isn't lilkely to happen.

Ecthelion

July 30th, 2003, 9:52 am

First of all, great posts fellow H/Hr'ers and especially to Babymars! :tu:

Ok, I really don't have anything deep or insightful here but I just think that it is sort of interesting that both of their relationships were ruined by each other. I think Sone may have mentioned this as well but I happen to think that it bears some significance. Besides how did they ruin it for each other?

It is my personal belief that both Cho and Krum were turned off of Harry and Hermione because of their observing them together so much. Naturally, being the people they are and not knowing Harry and Hermione's true relationship at that point, they began to be quite jealous. This is sort of fascinating. In the fourth year, when Rita wrote about Hermione being harry's girlfriend, nobody ever went by with a tone of unbelief or astonishment. Almost as if they always knew they were together. There are many instances where this particular thought crosses our mind. It's highly frustrating when everyone else in Hogwarts thinks they are together and eventually will be....except the two people involved! (mostly Harry)

But you people are right. Ron notices this as well and it just might very well cause problems.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 9:56 am

You know I wanna see Ron in a relationship without any trio member just to see if this person will end this ship because of Hermione?! I mean I will really see if Ron has the same problem.

Buckbeak

July 30th, 2003, 10:03 am

Hey this is just so off topic its miles away but i was woundering how do you get that writing that looks like its glowing? like the one you have in you signiture Flying Pheonix and Echelion, some other people have it too. tell me please...

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 10:35 am

I'm going to have to go with Mike on this one. Without her, and when they were without her, the consequences were staggeringly atrocious. They need her. And this is just my opinion, but if Ginny were in Hermione's spot, I have a feeling they wouldn't be here as of now. Nothing against Ginny of course, she is just inept to do Hermione's job.

IYHO I know. I hardly see it that way when she was able to make a sucessful diversion that Hermione later use also that allowed Harry to talk to Sirius.

That's why she suggest to help him and that's why Harry recognizes her loyalty?

I think it's really sad that Harry has to see Hermione's loyalty to recognized it. By now 5 years being friends he should have no question of it.

What's so wrong with that? I know, Gily, it's her approach, but did Harry actually leave like he said he would. No he didn't, he stuck around and listened to her, albeit angrily.

Hermione had to plead to Harry so he would listen to her. Hermione fails on Harry's emotional side but Harry sure doesn't apreciate Hermione's concern, care and loyalty.

What? How does Ginny suggesting Dumbledore's Army unable, or enable, Umbridge to kick Harry out a good thing? It's the reason WHY Harry was about to get kicked out and Dumbledore was the one who interfered so that it wouldn't happen.

No. The reason why Harry is about to get kicked out is because Marieta told on them. Umbridge would have been able to kick Harry out if the paper said Defense arts association. The fact that it said Dumbledore's army was what allowed Dumbledore to say that it was his idea not Harry's.

Young Prodigy - That's true, but it doesn't make Ginny superior to Cho. It's not like Ginny could predict the future and knew Harry would get in trouble and so she came up with the name as a way to provide Harry an out.

I'm not saying that Ginny can predict the future. But she tops Cho at naming the asso. Also I hardly think that this is a coincidence.

Not only with Ron but with Ginny as well. It has just occurred to me in the past couple of days that Ginny has indeed not gotten over Harry yet. She still likes him....alot.

You see at some point we all can agree! :agree: I will agree with you on this one sone.

I definately believe that H/Hr could result in a fight with Ron. Ron senses something between Harry and Hermione and doesn't seem to like it. If H/Hr get together before his crush is over, it could turn out to be another fallout.

I see no hope of a triangle. Harry is simply to close to Ron.

Still don't see how her "predicting" all of this helps SHIP H/G?

I'm not sure if you don't understand or don't agree. Clarify that for me. But for the sake of clarification and to make this complete. Since I brought up the subject:

Ginny is put several times against Cho and generally she does better than Cho in all of them. When in the train and Neville has that accident with the plant. Cho comes in acting blushinly, flirty and like a little vixen and then she leaves when she sees the mess. jkr has Ginny come right after Cho and has her fix the problem in a second. Cho leaves when she sees the situation Ginny fix it.
In the DA meetings jkr discousses Ginny's love live at the same label with Harry's love live. Hermione even put's it on the same sentence. Then in the end of the book she also discousses the end of both relationships in the same level. Even more she makes Michael to go out with Cho(which he originally was in hufflepuff).
Ginny finds Cho first than Harry when alerting the DA meetings. Then in the DA meetings Cho suggest a common name. A name that simplyfies the nature of what they do. Ginny tops Cho by suggesting a name that
is out there, a name that signifies that they want to fight evil and win.
Also there is the fact that Cho deals with her emotions in a way that Harry can't handle while Ginny deals with it in a way that is more agreeable to Harry.

Let me know if something was unclear.

On the briskly subject:

Here's what I have of briskly:

1. Marked by speed, liveliness, and vigor; energetic: had a brisk walk in the park.
2. Keen or sharp in speech or manner: a brisk greeting.
3. Stimulating and invigorating: a brisk wind.
4. Pleasantly zestful: a brisk tea.

jkr used this word in OoP:

"You don't normally walk to work, do you?" Harry asked him, as they set off briskly around the square.

As off speed.

'Excellent,' said Dumbledore briskly, springing to his feet, pulling out his wand and causing the two chintz armchairs to vanish. 'Well, I must be getting along. Good-day to you all.'

Also as of speed

'Hi,' she said briskly, 'good summer?' And without waiting for an answer, 'Listen, I've been made Gryffindor Quidditch Captain.'

Also as of speed.

They're hats for house-elves,' she said briskly, now stuffing her books back into her bag. 'I did them over the summer. I'm a really slow knitter without magic but now I'm back at school I should be able to make lots more.'

Hermione is a character in which jkr uses a lot the word briskly. Here on a speed tone and in a clear form of speaking.

'Come on, we've got to get this finished sometime before dawn,' he said briskly to Harry, pulling Professor Sinistra's essay back towards him.

Here she uses it on Ron in a form of speed and clear tone.

'Well, time's ticking on,' said Fred briskly, getting to his feet. 'George, Lee and I have got items of a sensitive nature to purchase, we'll be seeing you all later.'

Here she uses it on Fred in a form of speed and clear tone.

'Oh, well, that's all right then,' said Hermione briskly and raised no more objections.

Again used on Hermione as form of speed and in a clear tone.

'Did you kiss?' asked Hermione briskly.

Again used on Hermione as form of speed and in a clear tone.

'Well, to tell the truth, skiing's not really my thing,' said Hermione. 'So, I've come here for Christmas.' There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. 'But don't tell Ron. I told him skiing's really good because he kept laughing so much. Mum and Dad are a bit disappointed, but I've told them that everyone who is serious about the exams is staying at Hogwarts to study. They want me to do well, they'll understand. Anyway,' she said briskly, 'let's go to your bedroom, Ron's mum has lit a fire in there and she's sent up sandwiches.'

Again used on Hermione as form of speed and in a clear tone.

. . .glorious day like this,' Professor McGonagall continued briskly.

This time on McGonagall which is the other character she used it often also as a way of clear tone, speed and in a form of invigoration.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how is it that Hermione is jealous because she asked briskly if Harry and Cho kissed. Briskly is a word that JKR uses often when Hermione speaks she also uses it as a form of speed and clarity.

My point is, if Harry is going to get a girl, IMO, Hermione is by far the most likely(It is also possible that Harry won't get a girl). For H/G to happen, we need to see Ginny a lot more, and as it is, I don't think H/G will happen. JKR will have to develop Ginny a lot more in book 6, and give her a lot more screen time. But that is what may happen in future books. That is pure speculation. Just like McGonagall/Harry is speculation. Based on what we have, H/G isn't lilkely to happen.

What else do you want to know about Ginny? JKR has been developing Ginny from books 1-4, got her out in book 5. So what else is needed to know? Even Hermione is surprised with on how easy she came up with a way of handling the people needing a diversion. So what else is needed? Harry's love heroine does not need to be the in your face kind of thing.

Gily Ann

Young_Prodigy

July 30th, 2003, 10:37 am

So, as MEM pointed out, how does this coincidence make Ginny superior to Cho. Heck how does this make her even in the same level intellectually. Harry could have been kicked out regardless of what the name was, if I'm not mistaken. Still don't see how her "predicting" all of this helps SHIP H/G?

EDIT: Prodigy, I'm not trying to flame you or anything. It's just that, if that's what Gily mean than WHOA!

I wasnt attempting to show Ginny as superior to Cho or more intellectual than cho. I guess I was just responding to the comment regarding the name taken with the relation to DD being able to keep Harry in school. I do Ship H/G, but i dont disagree with the statement you made about that scene not showing if Ginny is superior or not.

I guess i didnt specifiy what i meant clearly, My apolgies.

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6965&stc=1

Earendil

July 30th, 2003, 10:41 am

Buckbeak, to find out how to make your signature text glow, check out this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=15056) thread.

Good question, FP. The only girl whom we know is interested in Ron at this point--Luna--didn't seem to display much animosity to Hermione (but maybe that's just Luna being Luna). Another interesting thing I noticed on re-read number four is that Hermione only starts being rude to Luna after the "I believe you" incident toward the beginning. On the train, Hermione limits her rudeness to the remark about the Quibbler, which she is embarassed about and apologizes for, showing that she didn't have much of a problem with Luna at that point. And this was the part in which Luna was practically drooling over Ron. If Hermione was jealous at that time, she didn't show it.

Then, after that incident before the Herbology class when Hermione tells Harry that he "can do better than her", we see alot more of the animosity towards Luna. The funny thing is that alot of people associate this rudeness with jealousy for Ron, when it could very well be that Hermione thought Luna was coming on to Harry.

BabyMars, your essays on the psychology of love are awesome. Can't wait to see the rest. :clap:

To bean counter Mad Eye Mike: it seems that Hawk and Ecthelion are exhausting the funds of the Harmony by investing in expensive weapons and celebrity referees to endorse a deathmatch between a Teletubby(/ie) and Barney. No doubt you will want to send a goblin or two after them, just to keep them in line. :angel:

MagicianGirl

July 30th, 2003, 10:45 am

I'm gonna put in my two cents if I may:

If & it's a big IF that H/Hr happens is Hermione "alone" be enough for Harry not
just to survive his trials and tribulations against Voldie but for the future ahead?
Because however way I look a relationship between these two will create a huge chasm
that may signify the end of the friendship between the trio. This is for the fact that
Ron obviously has feelings for Hermione & will definitely feel "betrayed" and hurt
w/ this relationship. Unless JKR do a 360 & pair Ron up w/ another girl which IMO
is doubtful at this late stage of the series since Ron never shows any interest w/
other girls but Hermione. Or she kills Ron in the end;again IMO doubtful.Killing
either one of Harry's would be too much even for the Boy Who Lived. Anyways,
I'm not saying that Ron will never accept the situation eventually but the closeness
that they used to have will never be the same. As much as Hermione is important
to Harry Ron is equally so perhaps a bit more. When he & Ron had a row in GoF
he was miserable & he missed him even if Hermione is w/ him. In Ootp where
Ron & Hermione have to go w/ the prefects he felt an odd sense of loss b/c
he never travelled w/o Ron before. Imagine how would Harry will feel if Ron
separates himself between H/Hr? If Hermione is there for Harry to help him in
his homework, in his problems & such Ron is there for him to make him laugh,
to share a joke w/ him to take his mind off his problems. But most importantly
it will defeat the whole themes of the series:love, friendship and loyalty. I am not
saying that H/Hr is not plausible but R/Hr is more apt w/ the story b/c Harry will never
lose either one of his friends.

erroom_potter

July 30th, 2003, 10:51 am

First this is my first post here and I think it only one because English isn't my language and I got F (fail) grade in English language subject. You can blame me, I'm stupid but try to argue and I know my post haven't anything new for H/H shipmate it's all in our heart. And I'm sorry about the long reference.

Hermione is a great friend to Harry and she is bloody brilliant. But she usually fails on Harry's emotional side.
Gily Ann

Hermione doesn't fails on Harry's emotional she know how to calm him down, what will cheer him up when he feel upset.

— CHAPTER FIFTEEN —
The Hogwart's HighInquisitor
He looked helplessly at Hermione, whose face was stricken.
'Harry,' she said timidly, 'don't you see? This . . . this is exactly why we need you . . . we need to know what it's r-really like . . . facing him . . . facing V-Voldemort.'
It was the first time she had ever said Voldemort's name and it was this, more than anything else, that calmed Harry.

I don't think the word 'Voldermort' that hermione use really calm him down. But the thing that calm him down is the thing that she said they need to know how facing voldermort. it mean she believe and she trust in him and that the way hermione know how to calm him down

— CHAPTER TWENTY-THREE —
Christmas on the Closed Ward
'I know you're in there,' said Hermione's voice. 'Will you please come out? I want to talk to you.'
'What are you doing here?' Harry asked her, pulling open the door as Buckbeak resumed his scratching at the straw-strewn floor for any fragments of rat he may have dropped. 'I thought you were skiing with your mum and dad?' ………………
'How're you feeling?' asked Hermione.
'Fine,' said Harry stiffly.
'Oh, don't lie, Harry,' she said impatiently. ………….
'Ron and Ginny say you've been hiding from everyone since you got back from St Mungo's.'……….
'They do, do they?' said Harry, glaring at Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
'Well, you have!' she said. 'And you won't look at any of us!'
'It's you lot who won't look at me!' said Harry angrily.
'Maybe you're taking it in turns to look, and keep missing each other,' suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.
'Very funny,' snapped Harry, turning away.
'Oh, stop feeling all misunderstood,' said Hermione sharply. 'Look, the others have told me what you overheard last night on the Extendable Ears — '…………………..
I'm not the weapon after all, thought Harry. His heart swelled with happiness and relief, and he felt like joining in as they heard.

I'm wonder if ginny doesn't fail to harry's emotion why she doesn't discuss about possess with him by herself. Hermione know why he upset not only he think he was possessed, but because the relation about him and his friend at that time (Ron/Ginny) too. Hermione know how to resolve that problem she suggest them to talk after they talk he feel better not only he think he wasn't possess but he back in to the relation with his friends again. Don't say ginny has benefit from this talk see at my first sentence.

Hermione goes with what she thinks it's correct. Not what he wants or needs. She was going to the DoM after they checked first at 12GP. She gave a condition to her going and gave Harry a plead.
Gily Ann

Hermione doesn't goes with what she think it's correct. She goes with the common fact. She tells harry to check at 12GP because it's the Real thing that can check while harry want to go to MOM because his Dream then I think It's the thing that he Need (check the Real thing it will made he get more confidense). Hermione doesn't go to MOM because she gave harry a plead, she goes there to help him she care for him.

Ginny didn't do that. Ginny offer her help trusting them on their judgement because she was struggling understanding what was going on. She gave no condition of them telling them what was going on for her help. She offer her help freely trusting Hermione, Ron and Harry's judgement.
Gily Ann

Yeah! Right she don't do that and don't do anything too.

— CHAPTER THIRTY-TWO —
Out of the Fire
'Somebody had to act,' breathed Umbridge, as her wand came to rest pointing directly at Harry's forehead. They were all bleating about silencing you somehow — discrediting you — but I was the one who actually did something about it . . . only you wriggled out of that one, didn't you, Potter? Not today though, not now — ' And taking a deep breath, she cried, 'Cruc—
'NO!' shouted Hermione in a cracked voice from behind Millicent Bulstrode. 'No — Harry — we'll have to tell her!'
'No way!' yelled Harry, staring at the little of Hermione he could see.
'We'll have to, Harry, she'll force it out of you anyway, what's . . . what's the point?'
And Hermione began to cry weakly into the back of Millicent Bulstrode's robes. Millicent stopped trying to squash her against the wall immediately and dodged out of her way looking disgusted.
'Well, well, well!' said Umbridge, looking triumphant. 'Little Miss Question-all is going to give us some answers! Come on then, girl, come on!'
'Er — my — nee — no!' shouted Ron through his gag.
Ginny was staring at Hermione as though she had never seen her before.

Well see. Ginny don't do anything even though believe in her friend (Hermione).On the other hand Hermione risk her life for stop Umbridge at that situation I don't think she need the plan on her mind if she doesn't want to see harry harm she would shout any word to stop Umbridge or change her interest but she doesn't do it . I'm wonder in your life who you can risk your life for except your parents.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 10:56 am

You know its now logical to say Ron get a girlfriend in book 6. I mean look at it in GoF was it Hermione and Krum, which didn't work (Thats what I think), In OotP was it Harry and Cho, which didn't work either. Now it should become Ron and ...(Luna?) and the big surprise would be it dos indeed work. I swear I did fall from the chair if thats what we get. Now to H/HR they both get aware of some suspicious feelings to each other but in book 7 they are a couple or not and just don't act about this feelings pretty possible.

:welcome: To erroom_potter. Its about time to see you around. Hope you enjoy it

Perdita

July 30th, 2003, 11:07 am

:welcome: to the Love Thread, erroom potter.

That was a very nice post. The first example you cited is, in my books, one of many H/Hr moments because Harry is consciously recognizing Hermione's devotion to him and the positive effect it has on him. It shows a steady progression from POA and GOF.

And don't worry about your English. It's fine! There are several posters here whose English is not their first language. We are all posting frequently and having lots of fun. That's the most important thing. So, stick around will ya? ;)

Earendil

July 30th, 2003, 11:10 am

Originally posted by GilyAnn
IYHO I know. I hardly see it that way when she was able to make a sucessful diversion that Hermione later use also that allowed Harry to talk to Sirius.

Ginny may have been helpful in OotP, but it's important to remember that her serious lack of judgment in CoS could have had half the school killed, Harry dying a slow and painful death, and Voldemort returned to power. It's also important to remember that Ginny was willing to use lies and deceit in OotP to create diversions for Harry to break rules, yet she didn't come up with a scheme to prevent Umbridge from torturing Harry. Ginny has her uses, but she can be no means fulfill the role that Hermione plays in the trio.

Just out of curiosity, GilyAnn, do you think that Ginny could replace Hermione in terms of her friendship, level of trust, closeness, and helpfulness to Harry? I'm not being obnoxious or rude here; I'm curious as to your personal opinion.

I think it's really sad that Harry has to see Hermione's loyalty to recognized it. By now 5 years being friends he should have no question of it.

Hermione's loyalty is the only one that Harry recognized concretely throughout the entire series. How does this mean that he questioned it before? He never actually and consciously reflected upon Ron's loyalty to him, so can it also be assumed that he is in doubt about this as well? Of course not. Harry recognized that Hermione was being loyal to him by risking expulsion and serious trouble even when she didn't need to, and--even though both Hermione and Ron have done this before--this is the first time that Harry actually expressed it through the narration.

Hermione fails on Harry's emotional side but Harry sure doesn't apreciate Hermione's concern, care and loyalty.

I have a feeling I misunderstood this. Harry doesn't appreciate Hermione's concern, care, and loyalty? I'll wait for clarification before I comment.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how is it that Hermione is jealous because she asked briskly if Harry and Cho kissed. Briskly is a word that JKR uses often when Hermione speaks she also uses it as a form of speed and clarity.

And it wasn't only the term "briskly" that implied that Hermione was less than happy about the kiss. She was also vague, distant, absent, business-like, and detached, as noted by Mad Eye Mike's essay on the passage. This is a pretty strange way to act upon finding out that your best friend just had his first kiss with his crush of three years.

Originally posted by MagicianGirl
If & it's a big IF that H/Hr happens is Hermione "alone" be enough for Harry not just to survive his trials and tribulations against Voldie but for the future ahead?

Harry needs Ron as a friend and an ally, but it would be inconsistent and incongruent for JKR to leave their fight in GoF completely unresolved. There are numerous examples of Ron still harboring deep-rooted, repressed bitterness for Harry and his fame, and even his self-confidence boost in OotP is not enough to just make this go away. Feelings of resentment simply do not disappear into the blue, and I'm fairly confident that this will eventually come back to haunt Harry and Ron. So yes, I personally do think that Hermione alone will be plenty enough for Harry while Ron is sorting through his personal conflict with his own self-esteem and self-fulfillment.

I'm not saying that Ron will never accept the situation eventually but the closeness that they used to have will never be the same. As much as Hermione is important to Harry Ron is equally so perhaps a bit more.

This is, of course, speculation and I'm not about to bash your personal perception of the situation, but I do think that Ron will eventually get over it if he finds that Harry and Hermione have feelings for each other. This is because I simply don't believe that Ron's crush on Hermione runs too deeply. The fact that he barely attempts to impress her, doesn't make the effort to understand and appreciate her personal views, shows no signs of wanting to spend time alone with her, and is still jumping down her throat about Viktor indicates that his crush on her is more an issue of possession and dominance rather than true love. Ron seems to view Hermione as is his property, and I think that these feelings of possessiveness are being misinterpreted by him as deeper feelings of love or attraction. Which is why I do think that Hermione is not the kind of girl Ron will need or want in the future, and he will soon realize this.

EDIT: And :welcome: to the thread, erroom potter! Hope you stick around and enjoy the debate.